'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships)

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Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 2:51 am

Chris. - Sep 20, 2004 3:38 am (#2451 of 2916)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Didn't JKR say we had seen the last of the human hosepipe?

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Upulwan - Sep 20, 2004 4:42 am (#2452 of 2916)

Tornedo, I'm glad you mentioned this. In my very very dark moments Smile I too feel that we may not have seen the last of Cho. At the end of OoP I was 100% sure that we may see Cho again, but I have to say after JKR said something like, 'they were never going to be happy' blah blah, I put it out of my mind. Also, the way Cho's written doesn't seem to hold much hope for her.

But I'm curious to know what your theory is. Should I stock up on tissues? I really don't want to see Harry's stomach doing backflips at seeing Cho again. (Simply because I think it's Hermione's turn now Smile )

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Chris. - Sep 20, 2004 4:50 am (#2453 of 2916)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
eastbrook4: Why did Harry have to split up with Cho Chang?
JK Rowling replies -> That's life, I'm afraid. They were never going to be happy, it was better that it ended early!
(World Book Day chat, 2004)

It's funny. I've always took this quote to mean that we wouldn't see Cho again, but perhaps Cho will try and interfere with Harry's future partners.

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 20, 2004 7:41 am (#2454 of 2916)

Oh, I'm sure we'll see Cho again, but not as we've seen her up to this point.

No 'ship for Harry and Cho, but I doubt they've seen the last of each other.

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The One - Sep 20, 2004 2:29 pm (#2455 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
Yes I agree. Cho has potential, I I think she will show that even if you crack up after losing your boy friend and even if you are not the right girl for Harry, you are not bound to be useless or evil.

She will come back and prove herself.

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timrew - Sep 20, 2004 4:13 pm (#2456 of 2916)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
In book 8.....

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Kasse - Sep 20, 2004 5:35 pm (#2457 of 2916)

lol tim, lol

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Sir Tornado - Sep 21, 2004 4:20 am (#2458 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
First of all, Alyssa (Star Crossed): A happy birthday to you.

Ok, since most of you really don't give much to Miss Chang, I am compelled to put forward my views on this subject. What I've done here, is that I've simply copied Prefect Marcus' introduction to "Harry's 'ship in uniting houses thread" and made the necessary changes to further my cause. (I have underlined the words I have changed.)

I am going to make a prediction. Harry is not going to get involved with Hermione, Ginny, Luna, Fleur, or any of the other usual suspects. Instead, he is going to end up with... Cho Chang

Yes, I can hear the groans, wails, and sounds of disgust as you read this. However, hear me out. There are a number of reasons I am making such a prediction.

First of all, Rowling was asked not long ago (I wish I could find the exact reference but I can't) whom Harry would end up with. Her reply as near as I can remember was to the effect, "The answer cuts to the heart of the series. I have not seen anyone guess this in all the sites I have visited."

That statement does two things. It first eliminates all the usual suspects (Hermione, Ginny, et cetra. They've been regularly guessed!), and it suggests where to look for his eventual 'ship. Where? In the heart of the series. (Important: Cho has been guessed, but that was before OotP. Now-a-days, there are more Draco/Hermione 'Shippers than H/C ones)

And what is the heart of the series? (This is where I stop parroting and say something of my own) Ok, there are a number of answers to this question. The first is of course the fight between good and evil. Then, as Marcus said, about prejudice. Another one, (which he missed) is of course about giving people second-chances. The series is imbeded with a series of people getting second chances. Snape for one. DD gives Harry and Ron a second chance for flying a car to Hogwarts. In PoA, Sirius gets a second chance for life. So does Pettigrew. So, why wouldn't Cho get a second chance?

eastbrook4: Why did Harry have to split up with Cho Chang?
JK Rowling replies -> That's life, I'm afraid. They were never going to be happy, it was better that it ended early! -- (Quote given by Prongs) from World day chat.

Now, I really am sometimes nutpicky while analyzing JKR's quotes, especially the tense. Here, JKR uses past tense (were). Meaning-- they may be happy in the future.

Another thing about the interview, JKR says "I am glad it ended so early". Meaning? Because it ended so early, they get enough time to make up again. That may not have been possible had they broke up at the end of the 7th book. (I use "may" because any thing is possible in JKR's world.)

Two major things that come between them are of course Marrietta's behaviour and "Darling" Hermione Granger.

As far as Marrietta's concerned, I believe she might have some genuine reason-- pressure from parents or something like that, which I wouldn't like to discuss on this thread but would be glad to do so on it's proper thread-- which, is unknown to our central characters right now. They may view the situation in different light once they come to know about that.

Now, as for as Miss G is concerned... well, I don't know. But I must say that if H/C 'ship is to work, R/Hr 'ship must work too.

If these two things work out, Harry would be sorry he offended Marrietta in front of Cho, Cho will be sorry she spoke rudely to Harry about HG and they will, well, be atleast friends again; and may be something more.

And many will undoubtedly say "Why did JKR had a break-up between them in OotP? In my opinion, it was the best red herring used by JKR ever. Fooled all of ya!

What do you think?

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Catherine - Sep 21, 2004 5:36 am (#2459 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
I think that the key word in JKR's quote is "happy." I do not think that Harry and Cho were ever destined to be happy together. In this instance, I don't think that JKR was being coy, or holding out hope that Cho and Harry would reunite later.

Even Ron said that Harry needed someone "a bit more cheerful."

I have jokingly suggested elsewhere that Cho and Krum should end up together. It seems perfect to me: Cho is always crying, and Krum is grouchy.

They can be two right little rays of sunshine together! Seriously, though, Cho has shown a predeliction for dating Quidditch players; Krum certainly qualifies. Her placement in Ravenclaw suggests that she is intelligent; Krum has certainly shown with Hermione that he appreciates intelligent girls. Krum is also someone who could sympathize with Cho about Cedric, and complete the circle where Cho would date all of the male Triwizard champions.

As far as Cho is concerned, I'm Krum all the way.

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Loopy Lupin - Sep 21, 2004 6:49 am (#2460 of 2916)

Now, I really am sometimes nutpicky while analyzing JKR's quotes, especially the tense. Here, JKR uses past tense (were). Meaning-- they may be happy in the future. -- Torendo

Well, she says "never were going to be." Tenses and moods are not my strongest suits in grammar; I often *ahem* simply write what sounds correct. So, that sounds past tense enough to me and if any grammar experts have a bead on the "mood," please chime in. My point is something different, however. In this instance, JKR was typing on the fly at the World Book Day chat. I don't know how much we can put into her word choice, much less verb tense.

Having said that, to say that a couple were never going to be happy, seems pretty cut and dried to me. Plenty of people fall in love with and eventually marry their very first love, and that's pretty sweet actually. But, it just won't do for a hero of a story who must develop, have experiences, become worldly. I just can't see Cho doing anything but serving as the "first" function: first crush, first date, first kiss, and first break up. Now Harry's got that out of the way, he can move on to Pansy. Very Happy

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Czarina II - Sep 21, 2004 8:49 am (#2461 of 2916)

"Now Harry's got that out of the way, he can move on to Pansy. Very Happy"

Or Ginny, or Luna, or Susan. ;-)

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 21, 2004 9:39 am (#2462 of 2916)

Or Hermione, or Tonks...

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Loopy Lupin - Sep 21, 2004 10:14 am (#2463 of 2916)

Tonks?

Whoa. I think that's another genre altogether.

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KWeldon - Sep 21, 2004 10:42 am (#2464 of 2916)

Loopy,

Don't forget that Book 6 must have a non-Pansy relationship first before the Book 7 H/P ship, and I honestly don't know who that could be, other than not being Hermione.

Wink

KWeldon

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 21, 2004 11:18 am (#2465 of 2916)

"and I honestly don't know who that could be, other than not being Hermione."

What makes you so sure that it won't be Hermione?

Granted, they consider each other no more than friends at the moment, but romantic relationships have evolved out of friendships in the past.

To shift gears abruptly... Another genre altogether? I fear I don't understand you, Loopy.

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Star Crossed - Sep 21, 2004 12:40 pm (#2466 of 2916)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I don't think Harry/Tonks could ever work out. Harry needs someone who won't mind being pushed into the background every now and then to let him think things through. This is my biggest problem with Harry/Hermione. Hermione just says the answer. Harry would rather wait and figure it out for himself, Hermione doesn't understand that. Now, as for Tonks, she sort of seems like a wanna-be Hermione. Saying this, I mean, if she knew the answer, I would bet she would shout it out right away. Plus, she's just too quirky. Harry needs someone who could be serious with him. Yes, he likes to joke around, but he has his moments where he wants to be serious.

I liked the idea of Cho, it made a lot of sense, and filled a hole as to who Harry will end up with. But then I thought, that's as fairy talish as Harry/Ginny. Could you see them telling the grandkids?

"Well, I met your grandmother at Hogwarts and she was the prettiest girl there. We dated in my fifth year, the whole school thought I murdered her late boyfriend. Then we broke up because she had a cruddy best friend and I was insensitive. Good times, good times."

And thank you, Tornedo, for the birthday shout-out! Very Happy

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Catherine - Sep 21, 2004 12:47 pm (#2467 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
Let's just say that I agree with Loopy about Tonks.

Won't say no more about that here, though.

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KWeldon - Sep 21, 2004 12:58 pm (#2468 of 2916)

Paulus,

I respectfully decline to get into the H/Hr ship debate with anyone. Suffice it to say I don't think it will happen, but that's just IMHO.

KWeldon

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Eponine - Sep 21, 2004 1:10 pm (#2469 of 2916)

LOL, Aly, I liked your description of Harry and Cho's relationship. Oh, Happy Birthday too!

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Star Crossed - Sep 21, 2004 1:14 pm (#2470 of 2916)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Thank you!

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The One - Sep 21, 2004 3:07 pm (#2471 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
The One Ship to unite them all!

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 21, 2004 4:25 pm (#2472 of 2916)

Loopy? Catherine? Why exactly won't you talk about... the subject... on this thread?

And, KWeldon... I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not putting anything past JKR, but you may do what you wish.

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Catherine - Sep 21, 2004 4:32 pm (#2473 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
Paulus,

I would not presume to speak for Loopy, only for me.

But, I looked up the word "Tonks" on various dictionaries. The definitions I have found are not suitable for posting on this forum, although I do not have a problem with it. This is one reason why, if you search the ship theads, I have always poo-pooed the 'ships proposed for Tonks, and continue to believe Tonks will never find her 'ship with any of the guys JKR has written about.

If you were curious, then you have your answer!

If you were dragon-tickling, then you also have your answer.

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 21, 2004 4:53 pm (#2474 of 2916)

I have my answer, then.

Thanks for clarifying, Catherine.

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Catherine - Sep 21, 2004 5:22 pm (#2475 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
Paulus,

No problem.

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Loopy Lupin - Sep 22, 2004 7:03 am (#2476 of 2916)


**resists urge to provide link to whatever "tonks" might mean in various slang as it can't be appropriate***

My point was much more basic than Catherine's. Tonks said she had just recently completed Auror training. McGonnagal says that takes about 2-3 years after Hogwarts. Assuming that Tonks started "Auror school" right after Hogwarts and it was her first week on the job when she came to retrieve Harry from Privet drive, then she's about 19-21 years old. (I always imagined her around 22 or 23 for whatever reason.) Harry is 15. Not to knock May/December romance, but this particular type of magic was thoroughly covered in The Summer of '42 . I don't see JKR touching it with a 10 foot wand.

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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Sep 22, 2004 8:07 am (#2477 of 2916)

Sometimes known as Kim.
Not to knock May/December romance, but this particular type of magic was thoroughly covered in The Summer of '42 .---Loopy Lupin (emphasis mine)

LOL And on various day-time talk shows which shall not be named.

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Weeny Owl - Sep 22, 2004 10:04 am (#2478 of 2916)

That settles it... Tonks and Harry will be a couple, and in the movie for OotP, we'll have Ashton Kutcher (or however he spells his name) and Demi Moore as Tonks and Harry.

:::waking self up from nightmare:::

As much as I love Tonks, I see her being nothing more than a big sister to all of the kids who were at Grimmauld Place.

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Catherine - Sep 22, 2004 10:11 am (#2479 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
As much as I love Tonks, I see her being nothing more than a big sister to all of the kids who were at Grimmauld Place. --Weeny Owl

Double dittoes.

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wolfgrl - Sep 22, 2004 10:27 am (#2480 of 2916)

I see Tonks not only as a big sister, but as a mentor. Her presence shows the kids that they can become Auror's even if they are young and not perfect.

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Loopy Lupin - Sep 22, 2004 10:30 am (#2481 of 2916)

Demi Moore as Tonks and Harry.-- Weeny Owl

Demi in a dual role? I don't think she can pull it off. When they let Dan Radcliffe's eyebrows get out of control, he does sort of look like kd lang though.

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Weeny Owl - Sep 22, 2004 11:18 am (#2482 of 2916)

No, I meant Ashton Kutcher as Harry and Demi Moore as Tonks, but I have to laugh hysterically at kd lang and Dan Radcliffe. Sorry for not making the nightmare a bit more clear!

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Loopy Lupin - Sep 22, 2004 11:28 am (#2483 of 2916)

I was quite clear on what you meant. Just being silly. But, anyway, is there anyone who doesn't see the age thing as being a real barrier to a Tonks 'ship here? Is there evidence that she's somehow younger than she seems?

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Catherine - Sep 22, 2004 11:50 am (#2484 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
When they let Dan Radcliffe's eyebrows get out of control, he does sort of look like kd lang though.--Loopy Lupin

ROFL! Yes, he does.

Maybe you should post that about "Clues in the movies" threads or the "Harry's eyes" thread.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 22, 2004 1:33 pm (#2485 of 2916)

Let it snow!
Whew, go away for a few days..... I've certainly got some catching up to do....

Interesting thoughts on the Cho/Harry 'ship thing. I don't know that I agree, but interesting none the less. One thing, if the 'second chances' theme means Harry could give Cho a second chance, couldn't it also mean that Ginny could give Harry a second chance?

I hate to back up in the conversation, but I'd like to clear up a misunderstanding of one of my last posts on here:

SE Jones: Hermione seems to live for verbal conflict, she loves a challenge.

tracie1976 (#2435): I disagree completely with you here. Ron is the one who starts up the verbal conflict. Ron is the one who makes Hermione run off and cry. Hermione defends herself. Please show me where Hermione starts the arguments because I don't remember any.

I guess I wasn't too clear, but I didn't mean arguing when I said "conflict". Conflict isn't necessarily fighting. Social conflict (which was the particular type I was referring to) arises when any two or more parties express a difference in opinions, beliefs, values, or views. I think Hermione strives for a challenge. You can see this in her acedemic persuits: she takes every class possible in her third year, she runs herself ragged with the time-turner, the fact that Arithmancy is her favorite class even though it seems to be one of the hardest (shows she likes the challenge), etc. When Hermione puts forth a view or opinion, Harry, though he might disagree, doesn't usually voice any opposition. He tends to withdraw from conflict, which isn't surprising considering his upbringing. Ron, on the other hand, verbally challenges her view. This makes Hermione have to come up with a better stance, which Ron challenges, and forces her to come up with a better stance, etc. It's like a battle of wills every time she states an opinion. This provides her with a challenge. Anyway, that's what I meant and I'm sorry I didn't phrase my first post better.

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The One - Sep 22, 2004 4:18 pm (#2486 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
I cannot remeber any instances where Hermione seems to take the challenge represented by Ron's opposition seriously.

I do not see it as challenges, only as petty bickering.

There is one case in PoA, where she argues with both boys over whether Harry should turn in the map and return to school that she seems put on the defensive. Her challenges lay with Harry, not with Ron.

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Agramante - Sep 22, 2004 4:54 pm (#2487 of 2916)

By the way, I'd like to apologize to those I offended by calling Ron a lout. Astudious he might be, but "jokester" is a better term than "lout", by miles, because Ron's basically a really good guy. I think you, One, were angriest...and rightly. Sorry about that... : ( But yeah, I do see much more real tension between Harry and Hermione. She and Ron are almost so opposite that they wouldn't attract, they'd simply avoid each other. Having said that, I do wonder if Hermione'd have been perhaps too timid to approach Harry by himself...Ron was the perfect foil to take the stress out of a situation. But in the end, I think the real energy exists between Harry and her.

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The One - Sep 22, 2004 5:17 pm (#2488 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
Angry? Me? I don't recall that.

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Czarina II - Sep 22, 2004 8:11 pm (#2489 of 2916)

Agramante: "Hermione and Ron are almost so opposite that they wouldn't attract, they'd simply avoid each other."

That's funny. Hermione and Ron have spent more time together sans Harry in the story than Hermione and Harry have sans Ron. If they were going to avoid each other, they would have done so early in the series! Hermione WANTED to be friends with them in PS. She didn't have to be their friend. Ron (and Harry by association) was openly teasing her and made her cry! Yet that very day, she decides that she wants to be their friend badly enough to tell a lie that could have landed her in serious trouble. You could say that she just wanted to be their friend because she liked Harry, but frankly, I don't think an eleven-year-old thinks that way. No one I know did. If a person is teasing you and their friends just (from your point of view at least) stand there, you would likely try to avoid all contact with either of them. Maybe, if you wanted it hard enough, you would talk to the friend (ie Harry, in this instance) ALONE. If I had been Hermione in PS, I would have assumed that Ron and Harry wanted to play the hero by rescuing me from the troll. I wouldn't have lied for them -- I'd have told the truth ("I was crying in the bathroom and the troll came in and found me and then they came in and fought it off."). In other words, Hermione wanted to be friends with Ron, not the other way around. Ron found Hermione annoying up until that point. Harry doesn't bind them together. Ron and Hermione are perfectly fine without him. For that matter, Ron and Harry are perfectly fine without Hermione, so long as they stay out of trouble. Hermione and Harry? Harry either frustrates Hermione or blindly follows her, while Hermione ALWAYS frustrates Harry. Ron and Hermione don't frustrate each other because they both enjoy the conflict they create. Harry doesn't, so he avoids it.

Sorry for the long rant.

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Sir Tornado - Sep 22, 2004 8:54 pm (#2490 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
I agree with you, but only until you get to the last part. I really think Harry/Hermione would get along quite well even without Ron.

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Czarina II - Sep 23, 2004 5:40 am (#2491 of 2916)

Wow! Tornedo agreeing with me! You made my morning.

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mike miller - Sep 23, 2004 10:46 am (#2492 of 2916)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Wow, miss checking a thread dor a couple of days and things run wild. As the Captai and sole crew member of the Harry/Tonks 'hip (Paulus, if you want on board, you're more than welcome) I must defend my position.

Catherine - I'm not sure what dictionaries you're using, but I don't think JKR would head down that path. Honestly, I'd be more concerned about her given first name.

Loopy - As I've always said, the age difference is an issue now but not as they each get older. I don't think Harry with have anything but a passing 'ship while at Hogwarts, just too much going on. Defeat Voldemort, complete Auror training and get a couple of year experience (possible working with Tonks) and the age difference no longer matters. I can easily see a 25 year old Harry with a 30-31 year old Tonks, no problem.

Aly - Tonks is the only character I can find in the entire series that treats Harry as just Harry. Also, she is aware of her own quirkiness and doesn't seem to care what other people think or say (a critical character element if you're going to be with Harry).

A Tonks 'ship fits with JKR's chat comments regarding Harry's future 'ship.

EDIT - Ducks behind suit of armor!

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I Am Used Vlad - Sep 23, 2004 11:08 am (#2493 of 2916)

I Am Almighty!
mike, I agree with everything you are saying, and admit that when Tonks was first introduced, I thought, "Wow, she has a thing for Harry." But if JKR plans to have Harry develop a relationship with someone over the course of the last two books(and she has implied that he will have a little romance), I don't think it will be with Tonks.

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 23, 2004 11:22 am (#2494 of 2916)

I have a tendency to jump 'ship, Mike. As I said, I don't put anything past JKR. So, I don't think I'll stay long on the Harry-Tonks 'ship...

Well, a few things. Snape had his opportunity to try to steal a Philosopher's Stone and passed it up, so I don't see him suddenly deciding to steal one.

As 'ships go, however, JKR has given us no more than a few hints, so I'm not putting anything past JKR 'ship-wise.

Except maybe Harry and Ginny, since Hermione said that Ginny no longer fancies Harry. No matter what Ron thinks...

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Loopy Lupin - Sep 23, 2004 11:39 am (#2495 of 2916)

Well, Mike, a 25 year old Harry and a 30 year old Tonks wouldn't be a problem, I agree. But that presupposes that we would ever see a 25 year old Harry in this series. No, I don't believe that JKR will kill Harry. But, I don't believe either that Book 6 or 7 will break the past molds and span more than the course of a year's time. So, that still leaves us, at best, with a 17-18 year old Harry and a 23-24 year old Tonks. Its not just that JKR won't go near this subject. To put it slangily, Harry just does not even have anywhere close to that type of game.

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mike miller - Sep 23, 2004 11:54 am (#2496 of 2916)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Vlad - JKR said something to the effect that what is life without a little romance but did not specify who. I think there will be opportunities for a few "dates" and even a ball or two but I see the fireworks being with other couples.

I don't see a serious relationship for Harry in either HBP or book 7.

Loopy - JKR has said that the last chapter of book 7 will be like an epilogue, supposedly she has already written the final chapter. All of the books todate have a chapter or two after the climatic event so I think it makes sense for book 7 as well.

I think we'll get glimpses of a stronger connection between Harry and Tonks in the last 2 books, more like Tonks being there for Harry when he needs it. This will make putting them together in the final chapter not so much of a surprise.

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I Am Used Vlad - Sep 23, 2004 12:13 pm (#2497 of 2916)

I Am Almighty!
I don't see a serious relationship for Harry in either HBP or book 7. mike

I agree. He will be busy, and as Loopy so aptly put it, "he just does not even have anywhere close to that type of game." However, I think Harry and Tonks will have more of a brother and sister type of relationship. I don't see it becoming romantic.

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Hermy-own - Sep 23, 2004 7:38 pm (#2498 of 2916)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
I also got that brother-sister vibe between Harry and Tonks; I agree with you there, Nimrod.

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Doxy Bowtruckle - Sep 24, 2004 3:35 am (#2499 of 2916)

I also agree on the brother - sister style relationship. After all, Tonks is related to Sirius and he is/was Harry's God father. I know the relation between them isn't a blood line but i still think it is too close for a 'ship.

I'm secretly hoping for a Hermione - Krum, or a Hermione - Slytherine to bridge the gap and to unite the houses. LOL, is sounds great to me!!!

Harry is way to busy, Ron is not mature enough, too intrested in Quidditch i suppose.

Oh we shall keep guessing. Smile

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Sir Tornado - Sep 24, 2004 8:02 pm (#2500 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Hermione/Vincent? Or Hermione/Gregory? I don't even think about it.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) (Post 2501 to 2550)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 2:52 am

Hermy-own - Sep 25, 2004 9:25 am (#2501 of 2916)
S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
Well said, Tornedo.

She's more likely to 'ship a mountain troll than those knuckleheads.

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L. Pickering - Sep 27, 2004 2:59 pm (#2502 of 2916)

It seems, however, that Hermione has indicated her preference towards Ron, despite his admittedly limited demonstrated emotional range. When she offers Harry assistance in his burgeoning disaster with Cho, she notes that Harry is not altogether quick on the uptake, though less so than Ron. Ron has been given plenty of indications that Hermione fancies him, from jealous reactions to Weasley's fawning over Fleur to the row they had after the Yule Ball. The kiss Harry receives on the return to King's Cross Station, and the acknowledgement that Hermione is not simply a girl but an attractive one -- albeit one he considers a friend (and even fifteen-year-old boys can differentiate between the two categories of attractive girl friends and potential girlfriends) -- are platonic and simply serve to emphasize that Harry is maturing. Whether this platonic situation between Harry and Hermione remains at that level alone is another question, one that depends on Ron doing either nothing or something so foul as to weedle his way out of Hermione's affections for good (which is certainly possible).

With regards to any potential match with Harry, I'd prefer it to be with Ginny although I see certain problems, mostly clichés, and not simply those occurring in fairy tale romances. Harry/Ginny is a possibility, but likely wouldn't occur before book 7 if at all. Harry/Pansy would necessitate abrupt reversals by both parties, and Luna was introduced too recently to really be considered much of a factor. Susan Bones is certainly a possibility, even though at present she's still a non-entity, while Cho is right out except as a spoiler for a future relationship Harry might have in the following books.

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Prefect Marcus - Sep 27, 2004 4:51 pm (#2503 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Harry/Pansy would necessitate abrupt reversals by both parties.

Actually, the only thing that would be required is Pansy to realize that there is no future with Draco. Harry is a proven winner. Draco is a proven wiener. Why should she invest any more time in giant-slug boy?

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Czarina II - Sep 27, 2004 7:30 pm (#2504 of 2916)

"Why should she invest any more time in giant-slug boy?"

Depends on what she is looking for. Pansy might want nothing more than a man who will father perfect pureblood babies -- in which case Malfoy would likely suffice. Or maybe she actually likes him, money and power or none. If she just wants a trophy, then Malfoy is not the best choice.

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 27, 2004 8:18 pm (#2505 of 2916)

"If she just wants a trophy, then Malfoy is not the best choice."

And if she just wants a trophy, then Harry will have nothing to do with her. Remember how Harry detested the "Harry Potter Fan Club" in book 2...

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Prefect Marcus - Sep 27, 2004 10:14 pm (#2506 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
And if she just wants a trophy, then Harry will have nothing to do with her.

No argument there. But what self-respecting girl wants to be connected to a loser?

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Czarina II - Sep 28, 2004 8:32 am (#2507 of 2916)

"But what self-respecting girl wants to be connected to a loser?" - Prefect Marcus

One that has deluded herself into thinking he is NOT a loser, of course.

Maybe Pansy will decide to go out with Theodore Nott instead of Draco. I don't see her deciding immediately to swing over to the Gryffindors.

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haymoni - Sep 28, 2004 8:49 am (#2508 of 2916)

Just as Dumbledore put the choice to Fudge - either face the fact that Voldy has returned and let's join forces or stay in your dream world and do nothing - Pansy will have to decide "where her loyalties lie".

We will see that Pansy thinks like the Death Eaters or we will see her horror at being connected to the Nibblers. It will be one or the other and I think it will happen very soon - possibly on the train ride.

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rambkowalczyk - Sep 28, 2004 9:31 am (#2509 of 2916)

I don't necessarily think that Theodore Nott is a good Slytherin. All that JKR said is that he is Malfoy's equal and doesn't feel the need to be part of Draco's gang. He could be a death eater in the making as opposed to a death nibbler wannabe. It's just that if Pansy drops Draco for Theodore, she may be leaving the frying pan for the fire. She'll be worse off.

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 28, 2004 10:01 am (#2510 of 2916)

"All that JKR said is that he is Malfoy's equal and doesn't feel the need to be part of Draco's gang."

Draco's gang are Death Eaters in the making. If Nott doesn't feel the need to fight for the next generation of Death Eaters, he won't feel the need to fight for Voldie either. In fact, his agenda might conflict with Voldie's and convince him to side with Voldie's enemies...

How is this relevant to 'ships? Good question...

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timrew - Sep 28, 2004 3:24 pm (#2511 of 2916)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Pansy must drop Draco because he has been a ferret and a slug. I think this makes him a Flug.....and a Death Nibbling Flug at that!

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 28, 2004 4:18 pm (#2512 of 2916)

Pansy didn't drop Draco during the Yule Ball (when Crouch Junior had already turned him into a ferret...)

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Prefect Marcus - Sep 28, 2004 9:28 pm (#2513 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Paulus Maximus - Pansy didn't drop Draco during the Yule Ball.

No, why should she? By the time of the Ball, Draco had not done that much worse than she had. He had tried to jinx a few people, but Harry wasn't exactly innocent in that regard either.

Now that Voldemort is known to be back, and Lucius Malfoy has been exposed as a Death Eater, we shall see how she reacts.

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Upulwan - Sep 29, 2004 2:20 am (#2514 of 2916)

LOL, Tim that was hilarious. I wonder if a Death 'Nibbler' is more redeemable than a Death Eater, given the nature of the 'devouring'. If so I guess Draco still has hope.

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total hatred - Oct 2, 2004 4:29 pm (#2515 of 2916)

Draco is beyond redemption because he don't want to reform. He like to be always his father's pet.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 5, 2004 10:07 pm (#2516 of 2916)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Sorry to be off topic, but I need to put this line in writing. We have many times discussed whether Harry will end up with Ginny. Right from the start I have favored Ginny as the likely candidate. In GoF, The Return of Padfoot Ron says about Percy "He would throw his family to the dementors if they stood in the way of his career". Later in GoF, Mrs. Weasley and Bill show up for Harry on family day.

In the OOtP, Percy participates in that sham of a trail the Ministry subjects Harry too. I don't believe that JKR leaves anything to chance or coincidence. Harry is/will be part of the Weasley family. He is obviously considered so by Ron, Mrs. Weasley. (For Christmas in OOtP, Ron just assumes that Harry will know that he's included in the family holiday plans) Ginny, I think is the just the way to make that family connection official.

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 6, 2004 6:31 am (#2517 of 2916)

Until the 5th book, Ginny was a nothing character. We didn't know her. Until the 5th book I couldn't imagine why any one would think Harry would pair up with Ginny. The fact that he saved her life in book 2 made the idea too sappy.

Now that she has a personality, I can stand the idea. Up on the Ginny thread they were thinking she might not be a prefect for pretty much the same reason that Tonks was never a prefect. If Luna Lovegood becomes a prefect based on her actions in the Dept of Mysteries, who will Harry ride on the train with to Hogwarts? None other than Ginny.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 6, 2004 7:57 am (#2518 of 2916)

Unless, of course, either Ginny or Harry becomes a prefect...

On the other hand, if both or neither become prefects...

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Ginevra-Weasley - Oct 6, 2004 8:11 am (#2519 of 2916)

The Dumbledore of muggles
It's only got to be Harry & Millicent Bulstrode, Malfoy & Hermione ,Ron & Pansy Parkinson.

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Phoenix song - Oct 6, 2004 10:32 am (#2520 of 2916)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Harry and Millicent Bulstrode? Ron and Pansy Parkinson?

Marcus-Where are you to clear this up? (LOL)

I don't think that there is any evidence that Millicent will be paired with any of the Gryffindor guys, but I could be wrong, of course. JKR has said that Hermione won't be with Malfoy. I read it yesterday on the Leaky Cauldron that she had said it in a previous interview.

Barbie

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 6, 2004 10:46 am (#2521 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Phoenix song,

Surely you can tell when a post is tongue-in-cheek?

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Phoenix song - Oct 6, 2004 11:01 am (#2522 of 2916)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
What? Sarcasm evident in a thread that has such monumental importance to the eventual outcome of the series? Surely not! Why the salvation of the entire Wizarding World rests on the pairing of these youngsters with the people that they have been stuck with since they turned 11!

Barbie

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timrew - Oct 6, 2004 2:43 pm (#2523 of 2916)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
LOL, Phoenix song and Marcus!

Sarcasm is definitely not evident on this thread. Otherwise you would have unlikely pairings such as, Hagrid/McGonagall, Dumbledore/Winky, and Dudley/Fleur......

Hmmmm.......come to think of it, though.......

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total hatred - Oct 6, 2004 5:13 pm (#2524 of 2916)

I think so too. I believe Pansy and Harry is better. Ron and Milicent is also good. It is about time someone make Ron stop whining. It far too annoying.

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Sir Tornado - Oct 6, 2004 8:29 pm (#2525 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
lol!!!

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 6, 2004 8:38 pm (#2526 of 2916)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
rambkowalczyk, true Ginny's character has been thin up to OoTP, but my reason for picking Ginny as Harry's 'ship from way back book one, has less to do with romance than it does with familial reasons. Harry needs(is)love, he needs family, and he needs the love of a family. From early in book one, the ties to the Weasley family have been building. First friendship with Ron and the twins, then acceptance by Mrs. and Mr. Weasley and the rest of the family. Love is what has saved Harry time and again, the love of his parents, friends, and Sirius. We've seen him care about friends, family and complete strangers. The only thing we haven't really seen yet is romantic love. That will take time. At age 11 or even now at age 15, deep romantic love is a bit premature to experience and recognize. But there is time, I don't think we'll see a true love relationship develop before book 7.

The pairings being named here are far more amusing than the H/G, but my reason for the Harry/Ginny are not so much about the romance. Tim always has good observations.

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Forge&Gred - Oct 6, 2004 10:26 pm (#2527 of 2916)

we are twins & we work in ministry of mayhem
Hi Phoenix Song. You seem to be towering rage. Well you seem to be like Percy.So anyway can you recognise a joke if it danced naked in front of you wearing Dobby's tea cosy?

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haymoni - Oct 7, 2004 7:11 am (#2528 of 2916)

"Now, now...play nicely, Draco."

I had a friend who married a man for his family. It didn't last long. Her parents divorced while she was young. Both parents had been remarried several times. Over the summer breaks in college, she never knew where she was going to live. Pathetic.

She met this guy who had a large family and they welcomed her with open arms. She finally felt at home, but there really wasn't a great attraction between her and her husband. I think the marriage might have lasted 2 years - I can't remember now.

Anyway...I hope for Ginny's sake, Harry doesn't hook up with her out of some sort of loyalty to the Weasleys. At this point, Harry may see her as a sister. It may take a long time before he sees Ginny for herself.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 7, 2004 8:16 am (#2529 of 2916)

And besides, Ginny is no longer in love with Harry.

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Hermy-own - Oct 7, 2004 8:41 am (#2530 of 2916)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
Paulus, I agree with that. Well, I'm not sure if she was ever in love with him; I think it was more of a crush.

It has been suggested, however, that Ginny does still fancy Harry and is only making out that she doesn't.

Hermy.

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Phoenix song - Oct 7, 2004 8:46 am (#2531 of 2916)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Forge and Gred: I'm afraid that it is you that doesn't seem to notice a joke if it were dancing unclothed in front of you wearing Dobby's tea cozy. I was also attempting a joke by poking a bit of fun at how fervent so many of us are with the 'ship that we are committed to. I am not a towering rage, I am a most peaceful lake. Believe me, my posts would not long last on this forum if I were in a towering rage...they would most appropriately be deleted promptly.

I would most definitely say that I am not like Percy in the least. Although in the interest of maintaining the "maturity" level that we have sunk to, I must say: "I'm rubber, you're glue...It bounces off of me and sticks on you."

Ahem...Now to return to acting more my age... I would like to say that I think that this thread is for the exploring of the romantic relationships that we would like to see occur in the future books. My tongue-in-cheek remark about how seriously people take the relationship part of the book is just my belief that the outcome of the War will not come to rest on whether this teenager is dating that one or not.

I agree with Mrs. Sirius on this one: " At age 11 or even now at age 15, deep romantic love is a bit premature to experience and recognize. But there is time, I don't think we'll see a true love relationship develop before book 7." The relationship pairings are a fun addition to our HP explorations, but we should keep in mind that it would be a little odd to expect these youngsters pair up at age 15...especially since they'll live to be 150 years old. (If Dumbledore is an example.)

Barbie

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KWeldon - Oct 7, 2004 10:02 am (#2532 of 2916)

I've always suspected that Harry did not welcome Ginny's advances because he doubted her motivation. That is, she developed a crush on him after meeting him very briefly at a train station. Would Harry not have suspected that she only had a case of "hero worship," when all he wants to do is NOT be reminded that he is different? It think it's possible, and I would figure that his doubts about it have never waned.

She doesn't stand a chance with him until he's convinced that she likes him for the person he is, not just the Boy Who Lived.

And, anyway, he will come to realize in Book 7 that Pansy is who he really wants. Smile

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wolfgrl - Oct 7, 2004 12:15 pm (#2533 of 2916)

I am not usually one to comment on ships but here is my oppinion. I see R/H, H/G, and N/L. Not because It would help the plot, not because it is in the stars or anything like that. Only because when finally finishing something JKR puts a pretty bow on top.

For example the end of PS/SS the extra points awarded to Griffendor house to make them win are the 'pretty bow.'

In PoA saving Buckbeak and not just Sirius is the 'pretty bow.'

Though she does not do too much of this I think it is becuase the topic's are not quite finished. I think with the finalization of the series, there will be a very large pretty Pink bow on top and It will include R/H and H/G, and possible N/L.

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Phoenix song - Oct 7, 2004 12:29 pm (#2534 of 2916)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Wolfgrl: I agree with you! The relationships that will result by the end of the series will be a "pretty bow" as you have said, or the extra icing and sprinkles on the cupcake. Not as necessary as the cupcake itself, or as necessary as the gift underneath the pretty bow...but something nice and completing.

I also like your pairings of R/H, H/G, and N/L.

Barbie

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Hermy-own - Oct 7, 2004 12:50 pm (#2535 of 2916)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
Yes, Rowling does like to use a "pretty bow," doesn't she? I like the expression, Wolfgrl!

However, I don't really see Harry and Ginny 'shipping. Why? Because Harry will come to realize in book 7 that Pansy is who he really wants. **winks at KWeldon**

Hermy.

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haymoni - Oct 7, 2004 12:51 pm (#2536 of 2916)

I guess that's what that Epilogue is for that she has stashed away in that vault.

A file full of pretty bows!!

(Hope so anyway!)

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 7, 2004 1:18 pm (#2537 of 2916)

It is true that Ginny provides a family for Harry and he could use one. And it is certainly true that Harry shouldn't marry Ginny just because she has a nice family.

I'm trying to think of what Harry needs and what Harry can give.

For example Ron needs to act more mature, to get serious about things such as schoolwork, to think for himself instead of relying on family prejudices (attitude about giants, house elfs etc). Hermione needs to chill out at times, and to listen more to people whose opinions differ from hers, and in general act less like a know-it-all. They are the classic opposites attract. Each encourages the other to improve although to Harry it sounds like endless bickering. Right now the reason Ron and Hermione "work" is because each cares about the others opinion. Hermione encourages Ron by kissing him before the Quidditch game and afterwards "seemed to come to himself slightly". Whenever Ron compliments her for rule breaking such as when she slapped Draco, it means something to her.

The irony is that Cho could have been a good match for Harry. Both Harry and Cho needed someone to talk to about Cedric's death. Cho could have allowed Harry to open up and Harry could have given Cho strength to deal with his death and move on. But it was not to be.

It's just that when we look at Harry's relationship we say what can this girl do for Harry. We also have to ask what can Harry do for this girl?

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 7, 2004 1:42 pm (#2538 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 7, 2004 1:46 pm
Why am I opposed to H/G?

The first reason is it would be just too cute. However, it is best to overlook that. Rowling loves to use appearance and our prejudices to mislead us. She is a master of red herrings, of hiding things in plain view.

The second reason is that Harry's relationship with her is almost exactly the same as his relationship with Hermione, Parvati, Lavender, Susan, Luna, and almost every other non-Slytherin girl. It is strictly platonic. If it wasn't for the fact that she was his best friend's little sister, he wouldn't even notice her. True, there was that little adventure in the Chamber of Secrets, but that didn't seem to affect his relationship much with her.

Third, she has moved on from her little girl crush on the famous hero. It has been argued that she still carries a torch for him, and is only trying to make him jealous. I discount this because she is totally and completely at ease around him.

Fourth, the alpha male gets the alpha female. It is true that Ginny is cute, has plenty of spunk, and can go toe-to-toe with the best of them; but it has been five books now with her taking major parts in two. At no time has she threatened Hermione as the alpha female of the series. She's had her chance. Muffed it.

Fifth, Rowling is painting grand themes. 'Shipping Ginny really doesn't fit in that well. To illustrate my point:
Harry Potter Conquers Prejudice!
Harry Potter Conquers Evil!
Harry Potter Conquers the Most Evil Sorcercer in a Century!
Harry Potter Reunites the Hogwarts' Houses!
Harry Potter falls for his best friend's little sister.

No, I am afraid that Harry's 'ship is tied to a different dock. Sorry. :-)

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Ms Hagrid - Oct 7, 2004 2:21 pm (#2539 of 2916)

What does Harry have to offer? Right now, Harry has SO much on his plate that I don't think he has very much emotional energy left over to bring to a relationship with ANY girl.

However, he has proved that he is extremely courageous in fighting for what he believes is right. He is also very concerned about correcting what's wrong in the world and ensuring that people are treated fairly. Which girl could achieve the most personal growth out of a relationship with a guy like that?

A) Pansy - For obvious reasons.... However, I wouldn't want to recommend that 'ship until I know a lot more about her than I do!

B) Luna - Needs to be a bit more connected with Planet Earth. Being involved with real issues/dangers has already done a lot for her. A relationship with Harry would continue that growth.

Neither Ginny nor Hermione seems to have the same need for what Harry can currently bring to a relationship.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 7, 2004 9:41 pm (#2540 of 2916)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Harry and Pug Nose Pansy! wha ha ha

(I think in the boil down Harry does look at appearances, remember getting a date for the Yule Ball?)

But I think H/G is going to be a very slowly developing love story, and it won't just be "I need you for...X.

Just like he and Ron realized only after 4 years that Hermione is a girl, he will discover that Ginny is: female, intelligent smart, funny adventurous, not just Ron's sister and a counter for him.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 8, 2004 6:47 am (#2541 of 2916)

I discount this because she is totally and completely at ease around him.-- Prefect Marcus

Not only is Ginny at ease around Harry, she can be quite annoyed with him too. She was rather annoyed and cool with him when he finally got around to realizing (with some prodding) that Ginny was the only one who knew what it felt like to be possessed by Voldemort. Someone continuing to carry a torch would, I think, have rushed to him with the information.

(I think in the boil down Harry does look at appearances, remember getting a date for the Yule Ball?) -- Mrs. Sirius

Excuse me. That was Ron who was determined not to go with the best looking person who would have him.

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haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 7:24 am (#2542 of 2916)

Yes - I kind of got the impression that Harry was going to ask the next girl he saw just to get the whole thing over with.

Sorry, Parvati!

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 8, 2004 8:14 am (#2543 of 2916)

Excuse me again. I misspoke. As Hermione put it, Ron was determined to go with the best looking girl who would have him. (Don't know how that "not" got stuck in there.)

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total hatred - Oct 8, 2004 11:08 am (#2544 of 2916)

By the way, who's the best looking girl Ron can get? Any ideas? I suggest Katie Bell. I can't understand why she insisted to retain Ron in the team in spite of his abilities

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haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 11:26 am (#2545 of 2916)

Angelina retained Ron.

Luna seems to be the only girl (besides Hermione, of course) that acknowledges Ron. Padme showed some interest in Ron after the 2nd task, I believe.

I can't think of anyone else.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 8, 2004 2:18 pm (#2546 of 2916)

The best looking girl Ron can get? Well, one of the girls who is best known for her looks is Cho Chang, but whether "Ron can get" her is debatable.

Oops... One of the boys... I forget if it's Seamus or Dean... said that Harry and Ron were lucky to get two of the most attractive girls in Hogwarts... so Parvati and Padma are also in. But again, Ron can't get them.

And then there's Fleur... but she's more likely to become Ron's sister-in-law, so again...

Whatever the case, Ron is going for a lot more than just looks at the end of book 5. ("She's quite attractive, but she could be a bit more cheerful..." or something to the effect thereof.)

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 8, 2004 9:46 pm (#2547 of 2916)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
While Harry isn't a completely shallow person who pays attention only to good looks, he does notice. GOF p388

"He knew perfectly well whom he'd like to ask,....Cho was a year older than he was; she was very pretty;"

GOF p 389, " "...a fifth year who looked as though she might knock him out if he refused..." "She was quite good-looking " said Ron... "She was a foot taller than me" said Harry..

He noticed Cho first in POA and noted how pretty she was, Cho's attractiveness is mentioned again in GOF and OoTP, and Harry mentions the 5th year girl was taller than he, I think is a reference to appearance.

PS: We assume that Ginny is over Harry, but did you notice in GoF on p 399, how she suddenly stopped smiling when Harry mentions that he asked Cho to the ball?

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total hatred - Oct 8, 2004 9:57 pm (#2548 of 2916)

One word, jealousy. She might have thought that her crush over Harry but deep in her heart, she still has feelings for Harry.

I think it is Ron that sees a girl through her appearance. Look for example, Hermione. He barely notices her before the Yule Ball but after that, look what happened.

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Ginevra-Weasley - Oct 9, 2004 5:02 am (#2549 of 2916)

The Dumbledore of muggles
Well do anyone of you all thinks that our dear old snivelly might have a crush on Tonks.He desperately needs true love to reform him!

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 9, 2004 2:53 pm (#2550 of 2916)

I would have to say no. Tonks was a former student of his.

The reverse may be true. Tonks may have a thing for him. I can see her trying to get a reaction out of him in much the same way Katheryn Hepburn was after Cary Grant?? (I'm not sure of the actor.) in Bringing Up Baby. (Very old movie involving a tiger or was it a lion.

I do not see Snape chasing after anyone for fear of rejection. He needs to be pursued.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) (Post 2551 to 2600)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 2:53 am

haymoni - Oct 9, 2004 4:29 pm (#2551 of 2916)
"Tonks was a former student of his."

That Saturday Night Live bit flashed before my eyes!

"Call me Severus. No! Call me Professor Snape!"

Sorry.

I truly think that Snape is far too busy for romance.

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Phoenix song - Oct 9, 2004 4:41 pm (#2552 of 2916)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
There was a Saturday Night Live bit about Snape? I missed it!!

I agree that Snape could do with a little bit of romance, but I'm not sure that he's interested. I wouldn't think that he would have much trouble finding a girlfriend. Girls are always attracted to the dark, moody, dangerous types.

JKR seems to be frustrated that so many girls find Malfoy interesting. He's the ultimate "bad boy" type, so he's bound to get plenty of attention.

Could you see Tonks and Snape at dinner, though? "There will be no more foolish 'nose changing' at this table!"

Barbie

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haymoni - Oct 9, 2004 4:50 pm (#2553 of 2916)

Oh, Phoenix Song - it was a very funny but inappropriate-for-the-Forum Harry Potter skit.

If you search the Internet for "Lindsay Lohan Harry Potter skit" you will find all kinds of links.

I believe Mugglenet had the transcript.

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hellocello3200 - Oct 9, 2004 5:24 pm (#2554 of 2916)

rambkowalczyk, I agree with you that Snape wouldn't put himself on the line because he is a very guarded person and would be afraid of embarrassment. He never does any thing that might get him laughed at. I also don't see any 'ships for Snape simply because JKR seems to be alarm by the attention he gets from female readers, an giving him a girl would make it seem as if she was condoning such crushes.

Edit: haymoni, I just watched that skit on KONTRABAND.com, hehe that was funny. thank you.

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Phoenix song - Oct 9, 2004 5:50 pm (#2555 of 2916)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Thanks haymoni, I'm going to check it out. I can use all of the chuckles that I can find! (Especially at Snapes' expense.)

Yes, JKR does seem to want girls to know that the whole "bad boy" fixation is BAD for them. She may use this as a reason to keep Snape single. Back to his "I Am A Rock" status.

Barbie

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LooneyLuna - Oct 9, 2004 6:26 pm (#2556 of 2916)

Thanks, Haymoni. I watched the skit on Kontraband.com too. That was really funny. Professor Snape: 50 points from Gryffindor! hee hee!

I agree, Snape is too busy for romance. If he survives the series, I would like to see dear old Severus settled down with a nice witch who specializes in cauldron cleaning.

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haymoni - Oct 9, 2004 8:19 pm (#2557 of 2916)

DISCLAIMER: I just want to repeat that the skit is not for everyone. I did not provide a link - well, mostly 'cause I don't know how to do that - or a website because it is NOT appropriate for all ages.

I find that I really don't care too much about 'ships among the adult characters. I like the Ron/Hermione exchanges; I'd like Marcus's theory about Harry & Pansy to play out, even for just 1 cup of tea at Madame Puddifoot's; I liked that Bill & Fleur are seeing each other; I'd love for Tonks and Charlie to hook up, but other than that, the 'ships seem to get in the way.

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Sir Tornado - Oct 9, 2004 9:46 pm (#2558 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Partially agree with haymoni.

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Sarah Shrub - Oct 11, 2004 6:12 am (#2559 of 2916)

Death and relationship. If some students dies would there be more miserable "second best" dating. Like Cho's date with Harry. For example, who would be Pansy´s choice if Draco was dead, and she wanted to move on?

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 11, 2004 9:55 am (#2560 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Sarah Shrub - For example, who would be Pansy´s choice if Draco was dead, and she wanted to move on?

I haven't the foggiest idea. *ahem*

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 11, 2004 10:44 am (#2561 of 2916)

I'm quite stumped on that one meself, Marcus. **cough**

I do think that Harry was Cho's first choice, though or would have been if Harry could have gotten a little bit more of a clue.

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Sir Tornado - Oct 11, 2004 11:07 am (#2562 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
I don't think so. I think she really liked Cedric.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 11, 2004 11:23 am (#2563 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 11, 2004 11:23 am
How many fifteen year old girls (Cho's age in GoF) like fourteen year old boys? A few, I'll grant you, but most teenage girls are turned off by the lack of maturity displayed by teenage boys. Harry being a year younger would only make it worse.

Basically, I think Cho was not opposed to either Cedric or Harry. If Harry had asked first, I think she would have likely gone with him. However, I think the upshot would have been the same. Their relationship would not have lasted.

As it happened, Cedric asked first. Cedric was a better fit for her in personality and maturity. So they were able to become more involved that Harry ever was with her.

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 3, 2004 2:55 am (#2564 of 2916)

Actually, you're quite right Marcus. I had forgotten how important age is. I recall as a Jr. in high school, a female friend wanted to know all about a male friend of mine, but immediately lost all interest when she learned he was a sophomore. This kid was an early bloomer, pretty much shaving. But, being a year younger, he was out of consideration.

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KWeldon - Oct 11, 2004 2:04 pm (#2565 of 2916)

I've always been amused by JKR's choice that Cho is older than Harry, for the very reason Loopy and Marcus state. The VAST majority of 15 year old girls, especially pretty ones with no problems getting dates, wouldn't even have a 14 yr old boy on their radar. She may have made an exception for the Boy Who Lived.

On that note, why did JKR write her as being older? I can't think of a reason that makes it necessary for the story.

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Star Crossed - Oct 11, 2004 2:13 pm (#2566 of 2916)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Perhaps times have changed? My best girl friends and I are all fifteen, and we really couldn't care less about age. In fact, I know a junior who dated (Is dating? Gotta love teenage dating.) someone in either the seventh grade or the eighth grade. Age really doesn't matter. I think it's very likely Cho liked Harry. She seemed sincere when she said she was sorry. Most girls I know, however, say yes to the first person who asked, rather than waiting to see if another will ask.

...I think I just degraded teenage girls...

Anyway, point being, we will never know if things could have changed if Harry asked her first.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 11, 2004 3:03 pm (#2567 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 11, 2004 3:05 pm
Certainly there are teenage girls who don't mind younger boys. Most rules do have exceptions, and rules dealing with human relationships seem to have more than most. The fact that Harry has faced so much, even beyond what many adults have faced has helped mature him quicker than most boys.

Yet again, Harry is the exception. Most boys are more like Ron -- totally clueless. Even Rowling remarked once, "Typical boy. Doesn't have a clue", or something like that. You Ron/Hermione 'shippers can likely cite the exact quote, I'm sure. :-)

A good example of the "typical" male/female maturity level at that age is at the start of OoP school year when Cho was starting to chat up Harry. Ron immediately pounced on her because of her Quidditch badge. Hermione could barely stand it.

Here is a link to my favorite Fanart of the scene. Hermione's reaction is priceless. :-)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Ms Hagrid - Oct 11, 2004 4:59 pm (#2568 of 2916)

KWeldon - Maybe JKR was trying to send us a clue that we shouldn't take the Harry/Cho thing too seriously?

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Catherine - Oct 11, 2004 5:25 pm (#2569 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
Marcus,

Thanks for the link, and the giggle. The artist did capture's Hermione's grasp of the situation quite well, I think.

I will, without scientific fact or analysis, lend my support that in general teenaged girls are not interested in boys who seem younger than they are.

Cho has an advantage with Harry because she is so petite and doesn't seem so much older than he is by being taller. As someone who was, until age 15 or so, much taller than most boys my age, I can say that I would not have felt secure "dating" or "going with" someone much shorter than myself. There are always exceptions, but my friends and I, with very few exceptions, always dated romantically, at least, young men who were at least our own age, and usually several years older.

Harry really doesn't have the emotional experience to deal with Cho's loss of Cedric and his own feelings.

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hellocello3200 - Oct 11, 2004 6:02 pm (#2570 of 2916)

I agree that girls, especially teens, don't normally notice younger guys, but I think that in many ways Harry is more mature than most boys his age. From the get go he had to fend for himself at the Dursleys and from age eleven on has had to take on LV in some form, a task many full-grown wizards couldn't handle. He is also intelligent, brave, kind and a good seeker. All those factors are what caused Cho to take interest in someone a year younger. He does not have a very developed dating technique yet however. I see his lack of knowledge about how to interact with girls he finds attractive and Cho's fountain-like condition as the main causes of the break between the two. (Harry is still light years ahead of Ron in the girl department though.)

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I Am Used Vlad - Oct 11, 2004 7:49 pm (#2571 of 2916)

I Am Almighty!
I have always assumed that Cho liked Harry not because he is The Boy Who Lived, but because he is The Boy Who Can Catch The Snitch. She is a fellow Quidditch player and seeker, so they did have something in common, even though she is older.

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Sir Tornado - Oct 12, 2004 12:31 am (#2572 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Yes Vlad, and seeing that she dated the Hufflepuff seeker before the Gryffindor seeker, is she going to seek the Slytherin seeker next? BTW, good fanart Marcus.

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CrazyMom - Oct 12, 2004 3:21 am (#2573 of 2916)

I still think that the obvious match up is Ron/Hermione,and Harry/Ginny. It just makes the most sense. I think that Cho,and maybe Luna, are just relationship growing experiences for Harry. Ginny has, from the beginning, had feelings for Harry. In the OOP, Ginny really seemed to try and break out of the "little girl" mold. I think that JKR was introducing us to the possibility that Ginny has been there, right in front of Harry, all along. Ginny, in COS, gets flustered in front of Harry. Harry rescues Ginny at great personal risk in COS. In order of the Phoenix, Ginny admonishes him regarding Voldie and mind possession, and Ginny also participates in the battle at the MOM. The end of the OOP really foreshadows Ginny/Harry for me, whenever Ron hints at it on the train.

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Sir Tornado - Oct 12, 2004 6:37 am (#2574 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
I still think that the obvious match up is Ron/Hermione,and Harry/Ginny.
Obvious to you, may be.

It just makes the most sense.
It's senseless.

I think that Cho,and maybe Luna, are just relationship growing experiences for Harry.
So is Ginny. Teaches him how to deal with someone who has a crush on you.

I think that JKR was introducing us to the possibility that Ginny has been there, right in front of Harry, all along. Ginny, in COS, gets flustered in front of Harry. Harry rescues Ginny at great personal risk in COS. In order of the Phoenix, Ginny admonishes him regarding Voldie and mind possession, and Ginny also participates in the battle at the MOM.
Great Red Herring. Hats off to Ms Rowling!

The end of the OOP really foreshadows Ginny/Harry for me, whenever Ron hints at it on the train.
Ron's a fool without the emotional range of a teaspoon.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 12, 2004 7:56 am (#2575 of 2916)

Now, now Tornado. No need to get snippy. True, I don't see why Ginny would make any "more" sense than any other particular ship, but a people have been known eventually see things that have been staring them in the face all along. So, Harry/Ginny may not make the "most" sense, but it's not "senseless." Of course, all this doesn't matter because Harry/Pansy deserves the superlative qualifier, but I digress.

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Sarah Shrub - Oct 12, 2004 8:15 am (#2576 of 2916)

My question is what can happen to "obvious matches" if something terrible occurs? If one of the main charachers die, would that change the pattern?

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Sir Tornado - Oct 12, 2004 12:39 pm (#2577 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Who's getting snippy? I was just trying to contradict someone

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Muggle Doctor - Oct 12, 2004 8:08 pm (#2578 of 2916)

JKR never, ever (well, almost ever) does anything without a very good reason.

I favour Ron to end up with Hermione because it would be a pureblood to Muggle-born match.

I seriously think Harry could end up with Luna. I think we could see a hand-holding, gentle, emotional-comforting sort of relationship between them, which is what he needs far more than some girl whose throat he can fill with his tongue. I don't think Luna would go in for tonsil-tennis either.

(I also think that is the sort of relationship Harry would have with Hermione if he ended up with her, but that's another matter!)

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 12, 2004 9:55 pm (#2579 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Muggle Doctor,

Red Herrings certainly count as a very good reason, would you not agree?

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Sir Tornado - Oct 12, 2004 11:31 pm (#2580 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
I agree. Great to see Marcus agrees with H/Hr atlast ...

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 13, 2004 7:03 am (#2581 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 13, 2004 7:04 am
Tornado,

I would be H/Hr all the way if it wasn't for R/Hr.

In drama and in literature, the Alpha male gets the Alpha female. It is the very rare work of quality that doesn't go that way.

Harry is the Alpha male. This is a given. There can be little doubt that Hermione is the Alpha female so far. Because of this, I was H/Hr for a long time. However, it is increasingly obvious Rowling intends Hermione for Ron. I fought against this as long as I could, but you reach a point that you have to be honest with yourself. "This above all: to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man."

So that must mean that Rowling is keeping her ultimate (ultimate as in final) Alpha female in the wings waiting to take center stage at the right moment. So we must look elsewhere for girls that have the strength of character to be Harry's 'ship.

In my opinion, there are only four girls that qualify: Tonks, Fleur, Ginny, and Pansy. Luna is just too, well, loony.

The first two are cute, but they are considerably older than Harry. I really don't see Rowling going outside of Hogwarts for her Alpha female.

That leaves Ginny and Pansy. Ginny has been in all five novels, with major parts in two of them. She certainly has strength of character, but the best she has ever been is spunky kid sister to Ron. She and Harry really haven't clicked so far. Harry's relationship with her is the exact same one that he has with Hermione, Luna, Parvati, and all the rest -- strictly platonic. That leaves Pansy.

Pansy Parkinson in an enigma. Our immediate reaction to her is to hate and despise her. We don't want anything to do with her. The interesting thing about her, though, is that once you start looking behind the smoke screen Rowling has put up, she shows surprising strength of character - the very strengths you would expect in the Alpha female.

Another way to look at it is that Hermione is the Gryffindor Alpha female. Pansy is the Slytherin Alpha female. Think how strong the series ending would be if the Gryffindor Alpha male 'ships the Slytherin Alpha female.

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Leila 2X4B - Oct 13, 2004 7:16 am (#2582 of 2916)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Marcus, you cannot argue with Shakespeare, even if the character was fishmonger. I tend to agree with your assesment. I cannot see Hermione with Harry, no matter what. I actually always saw Hermione and Ron as an item.

Leila

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LooneyLuna - Oct 13, 2004 8:53 am (#2583 of 2916)

I like your reasoning, Prefect Marcus. I always viewed Harry and Hermione's relationship as more brother and sister than romantic. Hermione will end up like McGonagall, a spinster, because Ron will be killed. JUST KIDDING!! I think Hermione and Ron will get together, and I always thought that.

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Ms Hagrid - Oct 13, 2004 10:22 am (#2584 of 2916)

I wouldn't be too quick to discount Harry/Luna just because Luna is a little strange. We just met her, but we already know a lot more about her than we do about Pansy at this point in time...

If I had to bet money based on what I've seen so far, I'd go with Ron/Hermione, Neville/Ginny, and Harry/Luna. Ron/Hermione because of all the clues JKR has given to date. Neville/Ginny because that relationship also has a number of clues, and because I can't see Harry pursuing a relationship with any girl he knows one of his close friends fancies. Harry/Luna because of the significant clue we got at the end of OotP that there might be a closer friendship developing.

Of course, with two more books coming lots can change!

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 13, 2004 10:54 am (#2585 of 2916)

"I'd go with Ron/Hermione, Neville/Ginny, and Harry/Luna."

Maybe there is something about the Veil. Ron and Hermione seemed to react the same way to the Veil, as did Neville and Ginny, as did Harry and Luna...

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 13, 2004 11:05 am (#2586 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 13, 2004 11:06 am
Ms. Hagrid,

I like Luna. She has this quiet dignity about her that is very appealing. She has a great deal of inner strength. She has to, in order to stand up to the harassment of some of her housemates.

However, consider these two possible endings:

The Gryffindor Alpha male 'ships the Slytherin Alpha female.

The Gryffindor Alpha male 'ships the Ravenclaw Loony female.

You tell me which is the strongest ending. :-)

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Ms Hagrid - Oct 13, 2004 11:20 am (#2587 of 2916)

Gryffindor Alpha male 'ships the Slytherin Alpha female? Alpha 'ships Alpha? Too predictable! Booooring! (just kidding! - I agree Pansy is possible. :-) )

Seriously, I can think of many examples in literature where the Alpha male did not 'ship the most "popular" female of her peer group. And from a female point of view, those are generally the more interesting stories!

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 13, 2004 11:33 am (#2588 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 13, 2004 11:35 am
Predictable? Boring? Tell that to Catherine, Weeny, and the others. :-)

Ms Hagrid - Seriously, I can think of many examples in literature where the Alpha male did not 'ship the most "popular" female of her peer group. And from a female point of view, those are generally the more interesting stories!

True, true. To be exact, the story Alpha male nearly always 'ships the story Alpha female. Whether or not they are the most popular one way or the other is neither here nor there.

Harry certainly isn't (or hasn't been) the most popular of his peer group either inside or outside his house. Though Pansy seems to be the most popular girl inside her house, the same cannot be said for her outside her house.
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Ms Hagrid - Oct 13, 2004 11:47 am (#2589 of 2916)

I agree. I think Pansy's potential for being a "story Alpha" is just a possibility at the present. I haven't seen her do much besides shriek and coo over Draco to date. Luna seems to have a greater potential for being a "story Alpha" in spite of her current "unpopularity". (just my opinion!)

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 13, 2004 12:16 pm (#2590 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 13, 2004 12:18 pm
Ms. Hagrid,

Your opinion is safe with me. I may ask you to defend it, I may argue against it, but I will always respect it. :-)

There doesn't seem to be a large number of H/L 'shippers here. Other than that moment at the end of OoP where Harry feels pity for her, what makes Luna different from all the other platonic friends he has? Why is that any different from that moment in 12 Grimmauld Place where Harry feels a connection with Ginny?

As I said, I love Luna.

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haymoni - Oct 13, 2004 12:29 pm (#2591 of 2916)

He felt better after talking with Luna. Does this mean that he'll talk to Luna again if something is troubling him? Will it lead to something more? Or is she just too bizarre?

Harry is too embarrassed to talk some things over with Ron. Hermione is too analytical. Sometimes you just want someone to listen. I think Luna may provide that. Harry isn't embarrassed in front of her. She thinks such bizarre things are possible, he probably feels he can say anything in front of her.

Plus he felt sorry for her - people taking her things - it gave him something else to focus on.

Harry & Ginny are in the club that nobody wants to join - The "I've Been Possessed by Voldy" Club. Ginny was almost harsh in her response to Harry - Look, stupid, I'm right here - I was possessed and this what it felt like! I don't think Harry underestimates Ginny. She's logical, but not rigid. The two conversations just didn't have the same tone.

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Ms Hagrid - Oct 13, 2004 12:53 pm (#2592 of 2916)

Prefect Marcus - The two examples you quote above are very similar, and if I were looking at them in a vacuum I would be very hard pressed to come up with a preference in terms of what "connection moment" was more significant.

I pick Luna over Ginny because I see some objections to Harry/Ginny (Neville fancies her, a relationship with her might affect Harry's relationship with Ron and the rest of the Weasleys and Harry might not want to risk that, etc.) where I don't see any objections to Harry/Luna other than her general eccentricity.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not really a confirmed Harry/Luna 'shipper. I just can't rule it out, and I think Luna is more probable at this point in time than some other female character we don't have very much information on to date (Pansy, Lavender, Parvati, Susan Bones, Hannah Abbot, etc.) Does that make any sense?

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Ms Hagrid - Oct 13, 2004 1:42 pm (#2593 of 2916)

I should probably add that I see zero clues to a Neville/Luna 'ship. I've gotten the impression that people generally are supporting that one because that's the 'ship that is left over after you pair off Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny and a general feeling that the "non-popular" male/female of our six friends somehow belong together. If I've missed something there, please let me know! I'm open to changing my mind! :-)

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 13, 2004 1:52 pm (#2594 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 13, 2004 1:54 pm
Well, for what it is worth, I suspect that the final pairing will be:

Harry/Pansy
Ron/Luna
Neville/Ginny

Where is Hermione? She's dead. The more I think about it, the more I think Hermione has a target painted on her back.

Let's hope I am thinking too much. :'(

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mike miller - Oct 13, 2004 1:52 pm (#2595 of 2916)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Well Marcus, I'm pleased to at least have Tonks on the "possible list". I have only three points to make on the Harry/Tonks 'ship:

1) JKR has stated that no one has got it right so far, although some have been close. Pansy may also be appropriate here given the timing of her statement and the timing of your clear and compelling discourse on the subject.

2) Harry's 'ship will come outside and after Hogwarts because there is too much going on for anything serious to get started. Also, there is going to be seven years of "baggage" associated with all of the girls at Hogwarts.

3) My gut instinct, albeit flawed on more than one occasion. After all of the seriousness of Harry's adolescence, he'll need someone who doesn't take things too seriously.

For now, I'll continue to Captain the Harry/Tonks 'ship. However, if we see the redemption of Pansy early in HBP I'll be willing to "beach" the 'ship and ask for passage on the Harry/Pansy 'ship, with Hermione's approval of course.

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KWeldon - Oct 13, 2004 2:12 pm (#2596 of 2916)

Marcus,

Assuming that you are right about Hermione (I will have comments for you on the "who will die" thread later tonight, hopefully), and assuming that we many of us are right that Ron cares for Hermione as more than a friend, it seems unlikely that he would ship with anyone so soon after her death. Even if she dies in the first half of Book 6, it seems that because she is both a friend and a love interest for him, her void will be too big to fill in anyway so soon.

Just my two cents. I like the other pairings, though! Wink

KWeldon

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 13, 2004 2:59 pm (#2597 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
One would think that, KWeldon, but remember; Luna has great empathy for people who have lost loved ones. She has a quiet way about her that is very soothing to the bereaved. That would be just what Ron needs, I would think.

I also think Hermione will be taken in HBP. This gives some time. Also, these details can easily be dealt with in the epilogue.

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Star Crossed - Oct 13, 2004 7:02 pm (#2598 of 2916)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Didn't JKR say HRH would make it past HBP? (Too many letters...)

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Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2004 8:12 pm (#2599 of 2916)

Predictable? Boring? Tell that to Catherine, Weeny, and the others. :-)

(snickering at Marcus) You do keep me chuckling.

I don't think Hermione is going to die, but if she does, it won't be until the one of the later chapters of the last book. There are too many things JKR needs Hermione to tell the reader and Harry, and considering her incredible intellect, I would be crushed if she weren't around to take her N.E.W.T.s. Of course, she probably wouldn't be too happy about it either.

My preference is for Harry and Ginny to be together, but if he should choose Luna, that would be okay.

My preference is for Neville and Luna to be together, but if it should be Ginny, ditto with it being fine.

I cannot see Harry and Hermione together for a number of reasons. I think, assuming they both survive and live to a ripe old age, that they'll always be good friends. I can easily picture Hermione being the godmother to Harry's children and Harry being the godfather to hers. I just can't picture them together.

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Cuivienen - Oct 13, 2004 8:26 pm (#2600 of 2916)

Didn't JKR say HRH would make it past HBP? (Too many letters...)

She only said that harry would live past HBP, not Ron and Hermione.

That said, I don't see Hermione dying, I see Ron dying, but that leaves some holes in the Perfect 'Ships Theory, since we'd then be left with three (four including Pansy) girls and only two boys. Of course, Luna's general eccentricity and her apparent feelings for Ron might make her a candidate for being left alone in any case. In the event of Ron dying, I see:

H/Hr and N/G

with Luna alone.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) (Post 2601 to 2650)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 2:54 am

Sir Tornado - Oct 13, 2004 8:37 pm (#2601 of 2916)
Rebel without a cause.
Where is Hermione? She's dead. The more I think about it, the more I think Hermione has a target painted on her back.

Let's hope I am thinking too much. :'( -- Marcus.

I hope so.

I think, before now, I've just attacked H/P 'ship without giving any reason at all. I think I shuld give it here. Here we go.

Firstly, I can't just picture H/P relationship. Mainly because Pansy is very rude to almost everyone.

Another reason is "Peer Pressure". I don't think H/P 'ship will flourish because Gryffindors, especially Ron wouldn't be happy at all. I can almost picture another fight between them if this happens. Normally, Hermione, who is more tolerating so as to say wouldn't back Harry on this one either. Pansy will suffer in Slytherin too. Most of the children, the "Death Nibblers" would have certainly a lot to say to Pansy. May be even curse her. What are we reading? Harry potter or Romeo and Juliet? This would be ridiculous, JKR's not putting those things in books. It seems like some kinda soap opera. Anyway,

I don't see Harry breaking his friendship of 5-6 years with Ron and Hermione just for a girl who, well hasn't even cared about him...

Last point, I don't think, that JKR's going to make an about turn on any character in the course of the entire series. That's why Dursleys won't be good, Ron won't be bad nor will Pansy be good. And IMO, Pansy has to shelve some of her pride to talk to Harry in the first place... and I'm not sure she can do that.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 14, 2004 10:02 am (#2602 of 2916)

"Harry potter or Romeo and Juliet? This would be ridiculous, JKR's not putting those things in books. It seems like some kinda soap opera."

Hmm... Do you suppose Montague will 'ship a Gryffindor girl?

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 14, 2004 11:46 am (#2603 of 2916)

Where is Hermione? She's dead. The more I think about it, the more I think Hermione has a target painted on her back-- Prefect Marcus

Ack!!! Whoa!!! No way! Marcus, I like to think of myself as your staunchest ally and/or cohort, but I can't go along with killing off Hermione. The trio must survive. Luna's days, on the other hand, are quite numbered. So, I think your pairing works but with Luna and Hermione switched.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 14, 2004 12:01 pm (#2604 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Well, Loopy, let's hope that you are right and I am wrong about Hermione's fate.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 14, 2004 12:13 pm (#2605 of 2916)

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one indeed. Don't feel bad. You can't be right about everything. Figuring out Harry/Pansy was a herculean *ahem* feat all by itself. If you're right, then your legacy is all but assured.

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KWeldon - Oct 14, 2004 1:13 pm (#2606 of 2916)

Marcus,

I'm echoing Loopy Lupin here that we'll have to agree to disagree, but I am also awaiting what surely will be a very thought-provoking treatise of your theory.

KWeldon

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 14, 2004 1:33 pm (#2607 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
KWeldon - I am also awaiting what surely will be a very thought-provoking treatise of your theory.

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. I derive almost no satisfaction and even less pleasure from HBI (Hermione Buys It). However, rest assured that if I do write something, it will be over on the "Who will die" thread, not here! :-)

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Robert Dierken - Oct 14, 2004 7:36 pm (#2608 of 2916)

Do you suppose Montague will 'ship a Gryffindor girl? -- Paulus Maximus, post #2605

Perhaps a Gryffindor girl named Capulet?

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Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 4:39 am (#2609 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
Perhaps a Gryffindor girl named Capulet? --Robert

Oh, SPEW! Good one.

Whoever Montague ships with, it'll have to be someone who likes the dazed and cofused sort, I reckon.

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mike miller - Oct 15, 2004 5:25 am (#2610 of 2916)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
In my re-read of OotP, it seems that Luna has a bit of a crush on Ron. In the first chapter where we see Luna she makes 3 comments that seem to indicate her interest in Ron.

Could Luna be the catalyst that brings the feelings I think Ron and Hermione have for each other to surface?

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TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 7:33 am (#2611 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
"Could Luna be the catalyst that brings the feelings I think Ron and Hermione have for each other to surface?" --- mike miller

I think they've already surfaced, Mike.

After the 2nd task in GoF, on the two occasions when Ron is seeing some female respect (Fleur and later Padma) we see some genuine Hermione jealousy.

It's surfaced, Harry's just too thick to see past the bickering and realize that not only do his two best friends like verbal sparring they like each other, too. (Reckon they like to make up, too)

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 15, 2004 1:58 pm (#2612 of 2916)

Luna's crush may force Hermione to decide how she will act in the future with Ron.

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total hatred - Oct 15, 2004 3:00 pm (#2613 of 2916)

Luna have a crush on Ron? I don't think so. The books didn't give us sufficient clue to indicate this. I think Luna sudden closeness to Harry might force Hermione show to us what is her true feelings to Harry. Either she consider her boy friend or her boyfriend.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 15, 2004 5:16 pm (#2614 of 2916)

Luna laughed WAY too loud at Ron's joke on the train to Hogwarts...

Although... she wasn't laughing when Ron made similar jokes at the DoM...

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mike miller - Oct 16, 2004 10:55 am (#2615 of 2916)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Tom - I agree about their feelings being "on the surface", they just have not taken the next step.

TH - Luna laughs more than necessary at Ron's jab at Goyle, she comments that Padma didn't enjoy going to the Yule ball with Ron but that she wouldn't have minded not dancing (*hint*) and she thinks Pig is cute. I'll admit, this does not constitute an obvious interest, but 3 comments in a short period of time says something to me.

Since I'm firmly in the R/H camp, I think it's possible that a little nudge from Luna could bring Hermione and Ron together as an offical couple.

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Norbert not a common welsh green - Oct 16, 2004 2:38 pm (#2616 of 2916)

Does anyone else find it unusual that none of the main characters at Hogworts(other than Harry & Ginny) have had a girl/boyfrined, they are all teenagers after all. Maybe Ron and or Hermione have a boy/girlfrind (prehapes each other) an not told Harry?

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Eponine - Oct 16, 2004 2:53 pm (#2617 of 2916)

I don't find it all that unusual. Not every teenager dates. We do hear about other people dating, so it's not as if there's no dating going on. But I tend to think that Harry and company are facing more serious issues than the average Hogwarts student, so casual dating might seem unimportant to them.

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TomProffitt - Oct 16, 2004 2:53 pm (#2618 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
I didn't really start dating until I was almost 17. What will be unusual is if it stays that way through the entire series. I can't imagine Ron or Hermione both being without a girl/boyfriend at the end of the series. (Unless they both die first)

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haymoni - Oct 16, 2004 3:19 pm (#2619 of 2916)

Having crushes or liking someone is a bit different than "dating".

Once you step into Madame Puddifoot's, I'm guessing the whole school knows.

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Doxy Bowtruckle - Oct 17, 2004 9:07 am (#2620 of 2916)

Haymoni - You brought a smile to my face. If there was ever a cringe moment it was then at Madame Puddifoots. im still laughing now.

I really felt for both of them!

I think that Harry and Luna have now found a bond, they do have a lot in common, in some ways.

DoxyB

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Czarina II - Oct 20, 2004 8:43 pm (#2621 of 2916)

It is all a mystery for now.

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KWeldon - Oct 21, 2004 9:57 am (#2622 of 2916)

Doxy,

I cringed more when Ginny sent Harry the valentine, but I agree Madame Puddifoots was cringeworthy, too.

KWeldon

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 21, 2004 11:58 am (#2623 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
KWeldon,

We do not know that Ginny sent the valentine. Draco accused her of it, but we aren't actually told one way or the other.

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KWeldon - Oct 21, 2004 12:14 pm (#2624 of 2916)

Marcus,

Touche. I cringed more for Ginny when-Harry-was-sent-a-valentine-and-she-was-accused-of-it-and-she-just-so-happened-to-like-him-when-he-barely-knew-she-existed-and-haven't-we-all-been-there.

Boy, you all are a tough crowd.

Smile

KWeldon

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haymoni - Oct 21, 2004 1:19 pm (#2625 of 2916)

Don't worry, K - Marcus is just hoping that Pansy was the one who REALLY sent the valentine!

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 21, 2004 1:35 pm (#2626 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
haymoni - Don't worry, K - Marcus is just hoping that Pansy was the one who REALLY sent the valentine!

Actually, considering how utterly embarassing and mortifying it was to him, maybe she did. *evil grin*

I don't think it her style though. Pity that.

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KWeldon - Oct 21, 2004 1:42 pm (#2627 of 2916)

Haymoni and Marcus,

Your comments remind me about something I've wondered about.

Assuming Pansy does not have feelings for Harry prior to at least HP6, what is it about him that will make her fall for him? I mean, we all love him and can see it right away, but what will do it for her? It has to be more than she sees him as her ticket to being with the "it" boy of the day---JKR wouldn't throw him so shallow a love interest this late in the series.

KWeldon

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 21, 2004 1:48 pm (#2628 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 21, 2004 1:51 pm
K,

Have you ever read Pride and Prejudice?

More than that, did you read in the chat thread a few days ago where Catherine *waves to Catherine* remarked about some old pictures of her in her 'youth'. She couldn't believe that she did the things she did.

The children we know are maturing. Why not Pansy?

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Muggle Doctor - Oct 21, 2004 7:48 pm (#2629 of 2916)

If either Harry or Ron died, Hermione would (I think) flee to the arms of the other for solace. Viktor is too far away (and too emotionally remote) - and why go all that way when your best friend (the one still living) is right there? Of course, she could always run to Neville, just to COMPLETELY throw us all...

If Hermione died, Harry could fall in either Ginny or Luna's direction. My first guess would be Luna, given that she knows what it's like to have someone you love die. Ginny had a close call with her father, but he ended up living, although Ginny has the advantage that Molly Weasley knows Harry well and is sort of a surrogate mother to him anyway.

Ron, on the other hand... well, maybe that would be a good reason for Harry to fall Ginny's way - Ron can't exactly run to his sister's arms for solace, can he? (Well, he can, but solace is all he'll get out of it...)

Oh yeah, Marcus: I know that you are the Admiral of the Harry/Pansy 'ship fleet, BUT I'm not sure the parallel holds: Elizabeth and Darcy were feuding constantly throughout P&P before coming together at the end, while Darcy made it clear to her that he loved her even while they WERE bickering - Harry and Pansy probably haven't spoken more than half a dozen words to each other, and most of those would be uncomplimentary.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 21, 2004 9:21 pm (#2630 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Muggy Doc,

It was not meant as a absolute parallel. It was meant as an example of a couple that didn't like each other much eventually became lovers. Now Darcy did change his mind far sooner than Elizabeth, but the fact remains that there was a period of time that neither one was attracted to the other.

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KWeldon - Oct 22, 2004 5:07 am (#2631 of 2916)

Marcus,

I think you misunderstood the tone of my post. You know I'm on board the H/P ship. I'm not doubting that she can fall for Harry, I'm questioning aloud what event, emotion, or whatever will make her become attracted to him, assuming she doesn't already.

We've speculated that Harry would fall for Pansy after seeing how she reforms and presumably earns his respect, but what is it that is going to make Pansy see Harry in a different light? She'll have to get past the rival Gryffindor part of him, and beyond that, what about Harry will make her head spin? Remember that Pansy hasn't seen or heard all that we have.

I keep thinking Jo has to separate Pansy's affection for him from any sort of hero worship or attaching herself to the "Boy Who Lived and Now Everyone Believes He Has Survived Voldie More Than Once". Look at the strong feelings even suggesting it evokes on this forum. Jo has to make Pansy's affections sincere to the reader. How is she going to do that if Pansy is an ambitious Slytherin?

I have no doubts Ms. Rowling can pull it off. Just thinkin' out loud.

KWeldon

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 22, 2004 7:33 am (#2632 of 2916)

Assuming Pansy does not have feelings for Harry prior to at least HP6, what is it about him that will make her fall for him?-- KWeldon

Well, if any of us could answer these kinds of questions, we would be able to write our own best-selllers. *** does robot wave to Catherine***

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haymoni - Oct 22, 2004 7:58 am (#2633 of 2916)

Now is exactly the time when Pansy would want to align herself with Harry.

It has now been shown that he was right all along - "the lone voice" - why wouldn't she want to hook up with him?

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 22, 2004 8:36 am (#2634 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
K.

What Haymoni said. :-)

Getting back to the Pride and Prejudice parallel -- the first part of OoP up to the Quibbler article was Chapter #34, the glorious first proposal. It happens at the time when Elizabeth thinks the absolute worse of Darcy. She drops all pretense and really lets him have it.

In OoP, Pansy begins the book convinced that Potter is crazy, an attention seeker, and/or deliberately maligning the families of her friends. What a total jerk! So she drops all restraint and really lets him and all his friends have it. She is at her absolute worst.

The Quibbler article was Chapter #35, Darcy's letter where he explains his side of the story -- which is exactly what the Quibbler article did for Harry.

The rest of Oop was Chapter #36, Elizabeth's reaction to the letter, and her gradual realization that she had been wrong about Darcy. She realized by chapter's end that Darcy wasn't that bad. Did she like him at this point? No way. The best that can be said is that she didn't hate him anymore. Did this realization come all at once? No, it took many readings of the letter and much soul-searching for her to come to that point.

So it was with Pansy. When the Quibbler article came out, it shocked her deeply. How to react? She didn't know. Being Slytherin, she wanted to be on the "right" team. ("Right" being whatever you define it.) So she pulled in her claws, held her tongue, and basically retired the snot act until she could sort things out.

Is she attracted to Harry? Perhaps, but I don't see her that far along...yet. No, right now she thinks he is not a bad person. Perhaps she admires him for the "lone voice", and the fact that he has survived a number of encounters with Voldemort. Slytherins like winners, not wieners. *cough* Draco *cough*

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KWeldon - Oct 22, 2004 11:34 am (#2635 of 2916)

Haymoni and Marcus,

I am not making myself clear. Pansy wanting to align herself with a winner because she is a Slytherin is not a trait that will endear her to Harry, Harry's friends, or the fiercely protective legion of readers as a good enough reason to be his ship. Jo has to separate this trait out and find another way/reason for Pansy to fall for him, IMHO.

KWeldon

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haymoni - Oct 22, 2004 12:20 pm (#2636 of 2916)

I agree - she's going to have to go about it the right way. When Seamus apologized, he stepped up, admitted he was wrong and did it in front of a whole group of people. Harry didn't question any of it.

Pansy is going to have to do it the first chance she gets - during the summer, on the train, whatever - she is going to have to apologize, she must denounce Draco and his family, she must stand up and be a leader in support of Dumbledore, Hogwarts and those that are against Voldemort.

If she doesn't, she is lost. And so is the 'ship.

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KWeldon - Oct 22, 2004 12:37 pm (#2637 of 2916)

Not to beat a dead horse here, but beyond Pansy apologizing for her past ways, there has to be another spark. Maybe I'm just giving this too much thought.

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haymoni - Oct 22, 2004 12:52 pm (#2638 of 2916)

I think she has to apologize first, then something will have to happen. Maybe she and Harry get paired up in class for something. Maybe they end up in the hospital wing together. Who knows???

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 22, 2004 12:52 pm (#2639 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
K.

Are you saying that Harry only likes girls that want to align themselves with losers? (just teasing!!) :-)

Why am I reminded of "Sleepless in Seattle"?

Hero: "I got letters from hundreds of women"

Male: "Desperate women..."

Male's wife: "Look, just because a woman wants to meet a nice guy doesn't mean she's desperate!"

In all seriousness, how many people want to align themselves with losers? I am not talking Baseball and Cubs fans here. It is human nature to want to associate with winners. This effects even Harry. Remember the "sinksap" episode? Should we condemn Harry because he would rather Cho see him talking with "cool" kids instead of Neville and Luna?

You are correct in saying that if the only reason Pansy is interested in Harry is because of what he is, the 'ship is going to hit shoals very quickly. But that would be like saying that the only reason Harry and Ron like Hermione is because they knocked out a troll together. If that was the only thing they had to base a relationship on, it would have ended before CoS.

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Jennifer Anderson - Oct 22, 2004 3:05 pm (#2640 of 2916)

[No offence]I don't think that Harry and Pansy are at all likely to happen and here why: I'm going to start by using your parallel of Pride and Prejudice: Not only does Pansy treat Harry badly she treats his friends as poorly as she him sometimes even worse, as well. Now do you think that Mr. Darcy would have still fallen for Elizabeth if she treated Mr. Bingley like crap? I don't so, I think he would've had about as much regard for her as he does her mother! Ok, I know no parallel is perfect, but this is a little big to over look. And I have read Pride and Prejudice.

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total hatred - Oct 22, 2004 3:47 pm (#2641 of 2916)

Come on, there are many ways of attracting a guys attention. I believe that Pansy is using I annoy you till you notice me approach. Pansy is systemically isolating Harry from his friends and discouraging possible girlfriends. Pansy can't overtly pursue Harry because of the tension between their houses. If really analyze the comments of Pansy on Harry over the females he has relationship with, I noticed the most of the comments implied that no girl is worthy of Harry or Harry is not worthy of them so "please Potty choose me".

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 22, 2004 4:17 pm (#2642 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 22, 2004 4:18 pm
Jennifer,

I never claimed that Harry Potter is "Longbourn at Hogwarts". They are two different stories told by two different authors. I was only showing the broadest of parallels between them.

In both of the stories, you have two people who don't like each other very much. They eventually become lovers.

By the way, there were times that Elizabeth's smart mouth really did tick off Darcy, but he forgave her. Their dance at the Netherfield Ball is an example of this. Her last comment steamed him, but he got over it.

"I would by no means suspend any pleasure of yours," he coldly replied. She said no more, and they went down the other dance and parted in silence; on each side dissatisfied, though not to an equal degree, for in Darcy's breast there was a tolerable powerful feeling towards her, which soon procured her pardon, and directed all his anger against another.

So is it possible that a "tolerable powerful feeling towards" Pansy will procure her pardon with Harry? Only time will tell.

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Chemyst - Oct 23, 2004 12:28 am (#2643 of 2916)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
KWeldon,
As of now, (that is, in keeping with the current un-reformed personality,) the only reasons Pansy might have to go after Harry would be either 1) out of spite, to stick it to Draco, or 2) to make Draco jealous, because she wants his attention, or 3) to test Draco's commitment by toying with him. In any of these, Pansy has a reason to go after Harry.

In any of the reasons above, Draco makes a rather ungainly third-wheel, and instead of true love, Pansy builds a pseudo-'ship.

To make Marcus's hope float, I think there would have to be a lightning-bolt moment that changes everything; something bigger and more powerful than a troll. As of the end of OP, Pansy doesn't have a reason to like Harry simply for Harry's sake– unless she found something while she wasn't there, of course!!! Only time will tell.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 23, 2004 7:23 am (#2644 of 2916)

To make Marcus's hope float, I think there would have to be a lightning-bolt moment that changes everything; -- Chemyst

Maybe she spent the latter part of OoP reading and re-reading the "Quibbler" article. "Oh the poor dear. I never knew. Bless him." Razz~~~~~~

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TomProffitt - Oct 23, 2004 7:30 am (#2645 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
"To make Marcus's hope float, I think there would have to be a lightning-bolt moment that changes everything;" --- Chemyst

You don't need to look further than Barty Crouch, Sr or Dolores Umbridge to come up with Slytherins who have no intention of supporting the Dark Lord. Perhaps the Parkinsons are in this group of people.

I think Pansy refusing to join Draco's chorus of Voldemort approval would be enough to earn his animosity and make her look at Harry in a different light.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 23, 2004 8:15 am (#2646 of 2916)

Well, in all fairness, do we know that Crouch, Sr. or that Umbridge were Slytherins? And, where did Pansy "refuse" to join "Draco's chorus of Voldemort approval"? I don't think there is an "on-stage" scene where she has openly or passively defied Draco. If there was, Marcus would have been all over it.

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KWeldon - Oct 23, 2004 9:54 am (#2647 of 2916)

Chemyst,

I started to say that I would guess that it will be a lightning bolt moment for both of them, but then again I don't see Harry's generally wounded soul reacting that way---it seems more likely to be a feeling that would build over time. I would think that he will be cautious in acknowledging his feelings for a girl to himself and to anyone else, but especially her. He's lost too much. For Pansy, who knows.

KWeldon

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Jennifer Anderson - Oct 23, 2004 11:54 am (#2648 of 2916)

Marcus, I didn't that you said that there was a "Longborn at Hogwarts". I know you know that they're two different stories. What I was saying is the fact that Pansy treats not only him but also Harry's friends like dirt would make her 100% out of the question as a choice of a date for him, by using your parallel. Pansy treats Harry friends horrible too. Here's two examples: 1.Pansy slandered Hermione. 2.Pansy lead the chorus of " Weasley is are king". My point was that Pansy treats Harry's friends bad too, so Harry wouldn't want to date her.

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TomProffitt - Oct 23, 2004 12:43 pm (#2649 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
Back to post 2648, Loopy.

Crouch and Umbridge are reasonable inferences, but not canon.

Pansy refusing to support Voldemort is a hypothetical instance which could cause her to view Harry in a different light. Pointing out that a "lightning bolt" is either not necessarily needed, or not that hard to produce (depending on your definition of a lightning bolt).

Pardon my lack of clarity.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 23, 2004 1:48 pm (#2650 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Jemmifer, My point is that times change. People change. Things do not remain static. If you are saying that once Harry doesn't like someone, then he will never ever like that person... Gee that sounds like someone else.

"No," said Darcy, "I have made no such pretension. I have faults enough, but they are not, I hope, of understanding. My temper I dare not vouch for. It is, I believe, too little yielding -- certainly too little for the convenience of the world. I cannot forget the follies and vices of others so soon as I ought, nor their offences against myself. My feelings are not puffed about with every attempt to move them. My temper would perhaps be called resentful. My good opinion once lost is lost for ever."

If Lily can forgive James for his youthful stupidities, why could Harry not forgive Pansy her's?

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) (Post 2651 to 2700)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 2:55 am

Robert Dierken - Oct 23, 2004 2:47 pm (#2651 of 2916)
Is that a lightning bolt scar?

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total hatred - Oct 23, 2004 3:10 pm (#2652 of 2916)

That is why Harry has that scar? He is not static. He need someone opposite to work. Like someone bossy in opposite to his passive attitude. How about someone nasty, opposite to his kind nature

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 24, 2004 1:05 pm (#2653 of 2916)

You can't get much bossier than Hermione...

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total hatred - Oct 24, 2004 4:52 pm (#2654 of 2916)

I disagree to you. There is someone much more bossier than Mione. He can be cosidered the paragon of bossiness

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Catherine - Oct 24, 2004 6:23 pm (#2655 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
Total Hatred,

My complaint to you is not a new one.

I must beg you to NOT call Hermione "Mione." I have only seen this name in Fanfic, and never by JKR.

This issue has come up before, so I hope that you not do this again.

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Upulwan - Oct 25, 2004 4:00 am (#2656 of 2916)

Have to agree with you Catherine, "Mione" gives me the creeps too, unbearable ones. (not the least because the first thing people ask me when I introduce myself is whether I have nickname Smile, and it's worse for poor Hermione, I don't think anyone even bothered to ask her). The fact that JKR has pointedly steered clear of a nickname for Hermione even at the cost of condemning her to series-long unpronouncability ought to be a clue that Hermione does not tolerate being called "Mione" Smile

Anyway, Total Hatred, who's the paragon of bossiness who has stolen the crown from Hermione? Sorry if that's a stupid question, I'm just a little brain dead at the moment.

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Loopy Lupin - Oct 25, 2004 6:17 am (#2657 of 2916)

Yes, the closest thing to a nickname Hermione has had is "Hermy" and I'd guess Grawp could probably call her whatever he really wants.

So, anyway, who is bossier than Hermione? I'm interested to know.

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haymoni - Oct 25, 2004 7:41 am (#2658 of 2916)

Sorry, but if we can use "Voldy" and "Dork Lard", which Jo has NEVER used, why can't someone use "Mione"? Is this a personal preference you are expressing or are we dictating the names Forum members are allowed to use?

My daughter can't say "Hermione" so it always comes out that way - "Mione". I know what she means - it certainly isn't derogatory.

Back to our regularly scheduled program...

I agree that unless Pansy apologizes outright, it will take a "lightning bolt" incident to bring Harry & Pansy together. I think it will happen.

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Czarina II - Oct 25, 2004 11:43 am (#2659 of 2916)

Maybe the "Mione" debate can be shifted to Hermione's thread? I think using nicknames for evil characters is ok, but using a nickname for a character like Hermione is a bit trivialising. Also, "Mione" sounds like "mine-y", which is a bit odd.

Anyhow, yes, who is bossier than Hermione?

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Weeny Owl - Oct 25, 2004 12:05 pm (#2660 of 2916)

I must beg you to NOT call Hermione "Mione." I have only seen this name in Fanfic, and never by JKR.

I thought I was the only one who disliked that. **waving to Catherine** I've never seen any place in the books where she was called that. She was called "Erminey" once when Ron was eating, and Grawp calls her "Hermy," but that's all I've ever found.

But as to her being bossy, it still seems to me that she would suit Ron much more.

As for Harry needing a bossy female, I totally disagree. Harry seems to be more the type who needs someone who can understand him and what he's going through. No one else fits that as much as Ginny.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 25, 2004 12:26 pm (#2661 of 2916)

I beg to differ. Luna understands what Harry is going through as much as Ginny does.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 25, 2004 12:52 pm (#2662 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Weeny,

The only claim to Harry's experience that Ginny has is they both have been posessed by Voldemort. Harry was only taken for a few seconds, Ginny a lot more. Beyond that, I agree with Paulus. Luna has lost at least one parent, and she has not met universal acceptance in her house.

Of course, when Pansy gets ostricized from her house for backing Harry, she will have a fair amount of empathy for him, as well. ;-)

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Eponine - Oct 25, 2004 1:14 pm (#2663 of 2916)

I don't think any one person can completely understand what Harry is going through. Different people understand different aspects of his problems. Ginny understands the possession, Luna understands losing someone, Neville understands growing up without parents, Ron understands that sometimes playing quidditch helps when you feel like crap, etc. I don't think it's necessarily right to say Harry should be with insert girl's name here because she understands him completely. And by understand I suppose I really mean empathize. Going through similar experiences does not necessarily mean two people will be compatible, it merely gives a foundation for understanding between them.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 25, 2004 1:27 pm (#2664 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Dead on, Eponine. :-)

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Catherine - Oct 25, 2004 3:40 pm (#2665 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
Sorry, but if we can use "Voldy" and "Dork Lard", which Jo has NEVER used, why can't someone use "Mione"? Is this a personal preference you are expressing or are we dictating the names Forum members are allowed to use? --Haymoni

I certainly am not dictating, and even if I tried, I am not a moderator, so it would have no teeth, anyway!

I have seen moderators ask that Hermione not be called "Mione." I believe the reason is that we have many international Forum members and it was believed that this nickname could be confusing. I think it is part of the effort to be as clear and correct as possible.

I don't call Voldemort "Voldy" and "Dork Lard," for the most part, but I appreciate your point. **laughs about Dork Lard**

But I think anyone able to post on the Forum should take the extra time to type out the first three letters of Hermione's name. I have no problem with calling her "Hermy," as Grawp does that in OoP. I also think that Haymoni's daughter calling her "Mione" sounds very cute!

I'm posting this here because the debate started here, but if we want to argue it, perhaps it really should move over to the Hermione thread.

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total hatred - Oct 25, 2004 4:03 pm (#2666 of 2916)

Come on, most of us can recognize that Mione is Hermione. I am only using it because it is easier to type.

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Catherine - Oct 25, 2004 7:37 pm (#2667 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
I am only using it because it is easier to type. Total Hatred

Ok.

Well, there are choices. I myself like that which is right, not what is easy to type.

I really do not like Hermione called "Mione" by adult members who know better on this Forum. But I will, as always, be ruled by the knowing majority and by the moderators who know best.

So, let's move on, shall we?

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Weeny Owl - Oct 25, 2004 7:52 pm (#2668 of 2916)

Luna understands what Harry is going through as much as Ginny does.

Perhaps she does, and perhaps as Eponinie said others understand him as well. I just see Ginny as a better match for Harry because of their shared experience as well as the closeness her family feels for him.

I could see him with Luna in some ways. They do have a connection, obviously.

I just cannot see him with anyone as bossy as Hermione or as strident as Pansy.

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Eponine - Oct 25, 2004 8:24 pm (#2669 of 2916)

Weeny Owl, I like Harry/Ginny too. I also believe that she is a better match for him, but it's not based solely on their shared experience as has been argued by some detractors as the only reason their 'ship might work. (Not that I'm saying that's why you ship it=))

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Sir Tornado - Oct 25, 2004 9:10 pm (#2670 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
...but it's not based solely on their shared experience as has been argued by some detractors as the only reason their 'ship might work. -- Eponine

Yes. It is not. Plus, there is a serious lack of canon evidence for H/G ship.

And I agree with Catherine. Shouldn't call Hermione 'Mione. Nor should we call Voldemort "Voldy" or "Dork Lard". I think JKR has said somewhere that we should refer to the characters by their proper names.

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haymoni - Oct 25, 2004 9:16 pm (#2671 of 2916)

I think H/P could unite the Houses as Marcus has theorized, but it is possible that in the long run Harry ends up with Ginny.

I'm hoping that once Harry finally gets the Voldy monkey off his back, he'll be able relax a bit and have some fun.

Whatta life!

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total hatred - Oct 25, 2004 9:45 pm (#2672 of 2916)

How come no one complained on using DD as Albus Dumbledore. What is this, double standard? That is not even his initials.

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haymoni - Oct 25, 2004 9:50 pm (#2673 of 2916)

Come back, total...come back to the topic.

Do you all think Poppy is married? Of all the adults we've met thus far, she is the one that I think has a spouse. Maybe they live in Hogsmeade.

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Weeny Owl - Oct 26, 2004 1:06 am (#2674 of 2916)

I also believe that she is a better match for him, but it's not based solely on their shared experience as has been argued by some detractors as the only reason their 'ship might work. (Not that I'm saying that's why you ship it=))

That isn't the only reason I think they're good together. A lot of it is little things that probably don't amount to much, but considering how JKR puts things in one book that don't become relevant until much later, I can see Ginny's childhood crush ending and her getting to know other guys and see what it is about each one that might hold her interest, and realizing that what was once a crush has become much more after seeing that Harry has what she wanted all along.

I don't see her dating other guys as a jealousy ploy to grab Harry's attention. I don't see her as a loose woman. I simply see her as someone who wants to see what makes the other half of the population tick.

I'm not saying that by the end of Harry's seventh year they'll be married, but that the epilogue JKR has mentioned will include Harry and Ginny finally seeing each other as the one they want to spend the rest of their lives with.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 26, 2004 12:42 pm (#2675 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 26, 2004 12:44 pm
My two knuts on the off-topic subject of the day.

Speaking for myself and only myself, I find 'Mione' little too obscure. 'DD' is obviously Dumbledore. 'Voldy' is obviously Voldemort. 'Ronikins' is obviously Ron. But 'Mione' takes me a beat to figure out what or whom is being referred to.

I seldom use shortcuts or nicknames other than the well recognized 'ship abbreviations. Everyone knows what H/H, H/G, R/L, and R/H mean. So the use of abbreviations are acceptable. In other contexts, however, I feel the extra typing is worth it for me to assure that the reader can easily understand what I am saying. But that is strictly a matter of personal taste.

Having said that, All the way with Harry/Pansay! :-)

EDIT: Weeny, I think Ginny isn't doing a jealousy ploy either. I think she has just moved on with her life.

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total hatred - Oct 26, 2004 1:46 pm (#2676 of 2916)

I agree to you. It is a matter of personal preference. What bugs me is they are acting like Toadsley. So we have a quite a number of Slytherins here. Is the Inquistional Squad reforming now?

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Weeny Owl - Oct 26, 2004 2:21 pm (#2677 of 2916)

Actually, the H/H, H/G, AC/DC (just kidding, while humming "You Shook Me All Night Long") stuff sometimes confuses me. Too many names beginning with "H."

If you use PP, is it Pansy Parkinson or Peter Pettigrew? Sometimes it's obvious, but other times it isn't. If someone forgets the "/" then R/L could end up being RL, and I would think Remus Lupin. I tend to say Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, etc. because when I go back to reread what I've written, I don't have to wonder what I was talking about.

I would like to know if "Mione" is actually canon. Is it listed anywhere in any of the books?

Marcus:

Ginny may have moved on for now, but I think there are still strong and true feelings simmering for Harry.

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total hatred - Oct 26, 2004 3:41 pm (#2678 of 2916)

Nice idea. So if we say H/P ship, it might mean Harry/Peter ship or Hermione/Pansy ship. Come on guys, make up your mind

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Jennifer Anderson - Oct 26, 2004 4:15 pm (#2679 of 2916)

I don't think Harry and Pansy are likley to happen infact I don't even think she liable to change her way. Why? Becuase she is portrayed as nothing but a little brat who treats the trio like trash, she was part of the industrial squad which means she is very pro Umbrige, Hermione says that she is stupid, so thats probably true, and it doesn't help her that she has a pug face which maens that she is well ugly.

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timrew - Oct 26, 2004 4:20 pm (#2680 of 2916)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Know what you mean, Jennifer. A pug face looks good on a pug........

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 26, 2004 6:01 pm (#2681 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 26, 2004 6:01 pm
Jennifer,

What if that is what Rowling wants us to think? She wanted us to think the Snape was the bad guy through-out Book #1, did she not? She wanted us to think that Scabbers was just a rat for three books, did she not? She wanted us to think that Pseudo-Moody was a good guy through-out book #4, did she not?

Rowling likes to leave little clues and glimpses here and there so that when the truth is brought forth into light of day, we can all kick ourselves and say, "Why didn't we realize that?"

So, how would YOU go about proving one way or the other, True or False, the Harry/Pansy 'ship?

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Jennifer Anderson - Oct 26, 2004 7:22 pm (#2682 of 2916)

Well, Marcus what do you have to say that might make Harry and Pansy plausible? So, what are these clues for this?

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Weeny Owl - Oct 26, 2004 9:35 pm (#2683 of 2916)

Nice idea. So if we say H/P ship, it might mean Harry/Peter ship or Hermione/Pansy ship. Come on guys, make up your mind

I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't use. All I'm saying is what I prefer using because it's easiest for me.

As for Harry and Pansy, Jennifer, check out the thread Marcus started about Harry and Pansy and their relationship uniting the houses. Link below:

Pinky "Harry's 'ship uniting the houses." 3/8/04 5:27pm

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 27, 2004 9:10 am (#2684 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
As for Harry and Pansy, Jennifer, check out the thread Marcus started about Harry and Pansy and their relationship uniting the houses. Link below:

To add to what Weeny said, the case for Pansy's ultimate reformation is made with greatest detail in the Pansy Parkinson thread.

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hellocello3200 - Oct 27, 2004 4:32 pm (#2685 of 2916)

I have to agree with Jen Anderson, that having a "pug face" doesn't usually denote attractiveness. While looks aren't everything, I wouldn't want to see harry end up with , well, a female dog.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 27, 2004 4:34 pm (#2686 of 2916)

It probably doesn't help much that his mother has been compared to a female dog...

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Jennifer Anderson - Oct 27, 2004 5:39 pm (#2687 of 2916)

Yet, Marcus I remain unconvinced. Alright the unicorns they're desribed as very beautiful. She a girl! She would have to be a pretty big tomboy not to show excitement over them. When Pansy was concerned for Malfoy didn't she say something like that they should kick Hagrid out right now. As for her being a strong girl, well bullies are insecure and since Malfoy can easliy manipulate her I would say she is not all that strong. Infact Malfoy manipulating shows more bad qualities in her bad tase and less than two brain cells two rub together. As for people change, she has no reason to change! Yes people change alot little things, but something as big as that people have to make a conscious effort and that doesn't happen anywere close to over night quite the opposite infact. And another thing, I know you're probably going to think I'm a cold hearted and not to bright of a person for saying this but, I really don't think that the Slytherins are going to unite with the other houses. Because JKRowling said that the book are going to get darker. So if anything the Slytherins are going to be more intrenched in their own house.

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KWeldon - Oct 27, 2004 7:27 pm (#2688 of 2916)

I have to agree with Jen Anderson, that having a "pug face" doesn't usually denote attractiveness

I don't have the books in front of me, but my memory is that the narrator states that Pansy has a face like a pug and not Harry.

Besides, as Marcus has pointed out before, she has to be at least fairly attractive or surely Draco wouldn't have anything to do with her. Are you saying that Harry would place a greater concern on looks than Draco would? It's doubtful.

Even if she isn't the prettiest girl in the school, it doesn't matter. It's what's on the inside that counts, even though she has a lot of work there! I would bet anything that if the H/P theory is true, JKR puts that pug comment in persective and has Harry notice how pretty she's become, likely because the removal of her sour disposition is reflected externally. Some offhand comment or thought in HP6 that plants the seed for falling for her in HP7, after he comes to respect her reformation.

Okay, move over Jo, I'm taking over from here. Smile

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Sir Tornado - Oct 27, 2004 9:58 pm (#2689 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
I agree totally with KWeldon.

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Gregory welch - Oct 28, 2004 11:39 am (#2690 of 2916)

Hey guys,

I just stopped in to check out how things were going and thought i'd put in my 2 cents worth of info.What i'm going to cover has to do with harry's future girlfriend, or mate (if he lives to be an adult that is).The following is strictly my opinion based on what i've seen and heard.....

I believe Rowling made a comment not long ago about that harry's future mate has been in the books from day 1.so based on this information i'm making a list of possible candidates (and a few others)to top the list off.Most of these girls were sorted with harry in the Philosophers stone.below is their names and some information about them.The character info is numbered below the list to corespond to the persons ID Number ____________________________________________________________ NAME HOUSE GO FOR IT HARRY?

(1) Hannah Abbot (Hufflepuff) Probably not (2) Susan Bones (Hufflepuff) Sure (3) Mandy Brocklehurst (Ravenclaw) Probably not (4) Lavender Brown (Griffindor) Possible (5) Millicent Bulstrode(Slytherin) Please no!!!! (6) Hermione Granger (Griffindor) Probably not (7) Pansy Parkinson (Slytherin) Possible(If she Changes) (Cool Padma Patil (Ravenclaw) probably not (9) Parvati Patil (Griffindor) Possible (10)Sally anne Perks (unknown) Probably not (11)Lisa Turpin (Ravenclaw) Probably not (12)Luna Lovegood (Ravenclaw) Probably not (13)Ginny Weasley (Griffindor) Sure (if he can get her) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

(1) She has always been mildly friendly with harry.(Except during books 2 and 4)As far as i know she never called harry a liar after he presented his story when Cedric was Killed.I realley think it would be a nice loyal realationship.However i personally believe that she is going to get involved with Ernie (the other Hufflepuff Prefect).So i'm going to have to say no to this one.

(2) She is a nice Hufflepuff girl who was an avid player in harry's illegal Defense against the dark arts group.One thing that i realley like about this pairing is that she and harry have some things in common(like both having close relatives who were murdered by voldemort and his death eaters).She also was not one of those who called harry a liar during his roughest times.I think this ship has a good chance of sailing.

(3) Not much is known about this girl.She is mentioned briefly during the sorting in book one and then is not heard from again.Unless she is a surprise character, i don't think she'll play a large role in future plots.

(4) Untill the Quibbler article came out in the later half of book 5 she thought he was just a liar and a glory monger.I guess now that she knows the truth and everyone see's him as a hero there is a little chance for romance.Of course harry will have to forgive her before many sparks will fly.

(5) Now this is a girl who realley doesn't seem to like harry or his Friends.She was in Umbridges office when harry was caught trying to speak to sirius.The fact that she laughed along with malfoy and the others about harry's misfortune and Mcgonagalls injuries convinces me she is one of the unfeeling "Bad Slytherins" who will support Voldemort.I pray to God that we won't see this ship come in.

(6) Hermione is a fellow Griffindor and one of his most dear Friends (as if you didn't already know that).Many people beleive that they will get together because hermione kissed him at the end of book 4.But Rowling has stated several times that her and harry are only friends and always will be.She always hints us to believe however that she will end up with Ron instead.Her word is good enough for me.

(7) To be honest, Pansy Parkinson is a complete mystery to me.Up to date she has done nothing but repeatedly slandered and hurt Harry and those closest to him(Although i don't think she's nearly as bad as Malfoy).However Prefect marcus has brought up several good points which gives me good reason to believe she might change her ways.I distinctly remember reading in an interview where Rowling admitted that she always puts these little clues to help us foreshadow what is to come.I think that she has plenty of time to show us a different side of pansy we've never seen.Though such as the case with lavender brown will harry find it in him to forgive her?

(Cool as i'm sure all of you already know Padma is the twin sister of Parvati Patil.She was sorted into ravenclaw in book 1 and wasn't heard from again untill # 4 when she was Rons partner at the Yule ball.After that she once again disappears into the background, though she is mentioned in book 5.I realley don't think there's much more to her character than that.

(9) Parvati was realley harry's first try at the dating game.Harry took her to the yule ball but she ended up mad at him and left after he continuously ignored her.I think harry only asked her out so he would have a date for the ball not because of interest.she did seem to like him though so i guess there is still a chance for this ship.However i'm realley not sure Rowling would use the same ship twice in a storyline.

(10) This is another girl who was only mentioned in passing during the book 1 sorting.However i realley don't think she's important to the story and here's why.In book during the sorting her name is called between PATIL,PARVATI AND POTTER, HARRY but in book 5 when they are called alphabetically to take their O.W.L's her name does not appear in the usual place.What this means is either this girl is so unimportant that rowling forgot to put her name in, or she left Hogwarts between years 1 and 5.

(11) Another girl mentioned only in passing in the sorting.Not much else to say about her.

(12) I find this to be a very interesting couple.In book 5 we are introduced to Luna Lovegood a Ravenclaw girl who is needless to say a little "spacey".At first harry realley doesn't seem to like her with all her wierdness.But at the end of the book we see that she also has something in common with harry.Now this would be a good romance to watch,only there's one problem.Ms lovegood doesn't appear in writing untill book 5 (near the end of the series.) As i've said before it's been said that harry's mate has been there in the books since year one.This just doesn't fit with luna.

(13) I wouldn't doubt if this was the most popular ship out of them all.In Book 2 Young Ginny Weasley enters hogwart and is immediately infatuated with little harry.It sounds like the perfect romance doesn't it?But wait, we forward three years to the Order of the Phoenix and it seems Ginny is over harry and is now playing the field.Could this be a tactic to get harry jealous, or is she realley done with him?Only the next two books will tell us that.Some of you may argue "Hey wait, Ginny wasn't even in book one, she came in after that".That assumption is close but not totally right.She made a small appearance in the Philosophers stone when she was ten years old.She was on platform nine and three quarters when harry was getting on the train and i believe when he was getting off too.This would make her acceptable for the "criteria." The one thing that worries me about this ship though is that it's a little too predictable.Still i'm holding it as one of the top 5 candidates.

AND THE WINNERS ARE!!!(in no particular order)

(1) Parvati Patil (2) Lavender Brown (3) Pansy Parkinson (4) Ginny Weasley (5) Susan Bones

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hellocello3200 - Oct 28, 2004 6:19 pm (#2691 of 2916)

Greg, where did you read that Harry's future ship will be someone whose been around since book one and that Harry will not end up with Hermione?

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Star Crossed - Oct 28, 2004 6:20 pm (#2692 of 2916)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Actually, Luna got the briefest of mentions in GoF when Mr. Diggory (Or Mr. Weasley, can't remember which) says the Lovegoods couldn't get tickets. It really doesn't change your essay, but I thought I'd point it out anyways.

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Witta Woman - Oct 29, 2004 1:16 am (#2693 of 2916)

Ok, I wasn't sure I shipped anyone at first. Beyond Ron/Hermione, sorry to any Harry/Hermione or Draco/Hermione, or even Snape/Hermione shippers but JKR has said and I have seen. Then Fanfiction and essays have scewed my thinking.

I'm all for Ron/Hermione. Enough said.

I'm not sure if either Harry or Neville will survive the final Battle.

Luna...If any one dates a Slytherin I think it will be her. She has no sense of Prejudice; a benefit not only for herself, to see Slytherins as who they really are, but for said slytherin to see the light in their dating of her.

On the whole "uniting of the houses" concept of dating I have to say no. Think about it, this isn't afeuding family, it's middle school and high school. Cliques are rarely bonded or joined due to a relationship, and if they are, the bond ends once the relationship has left the school. Could you imagine the conversation/idea of it.

"Yeah, Slytherins and Griffyndors used to be rivals but there was this couple a few years back. It really brought all of the hundreds of people who don't know everyone else all that well together."

Also, there are those who mock any sort of lasting relationship or 'true love' outcome for the characters given their ages. I would like to point out that they are now in a time of war, in which the fragility of life is more obvious. Baby-booming occurs after every war and there is a reason for that. I call on Lilly and James, and the Weasleys as examples.

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Ann - Oct 29, 2004 12:41 pm (#2694 of 2916)

Gregory, you forgot Angelina, Katie, and Alicia! Let's not be prejudiced against older women!

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Sir Tornado - Oct 30, 2004 6:36 am (#2695 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Angelina and Alicia would be leaving Hogwarts in HbP. I think we can discount them easily enough.

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Denise P. - Nov 1, 2004 7:46 am (#2696 of 2916)

Ravenclaw Pony
Please check the thread Kip Carter "-- What Happened to My Post?" 10/24/04 5:44am if you are concerned about a missing post that was removed

Edit: I removed a response to the deleted post as well. If the author of that post has a question about why the post was removed, feel free to email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Muggle Doctor - Nov 2, 2004 7:15 pm (#2697 of 2916)

Let us not forget that there are theories Harry may not survive (or might 'die' and come back) - if so, the 'ship everyone has forgotten about is:

Harry Potter - Moaning Myrtle

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TomProffitt - Nov 2, 2004 10:06 pm (#2698 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
For those who are into the Ron as Seer theory, be aware that Ron "predicted" the Harry/Myrtle ship in FBaWtFT.

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Muggle Doctor - Nov 3, 2004 12:06 am (#2699 of 2916)

And what, pray tell, is FBaWtFT ??? !!

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Chris. - Nov 3, 2004 2:16 am (#2700 of 2916)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Fantastic Beasts and Where to find them, more commonly shortened as FB. I think Ron can still joke without everything coming true.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) (Post 2700 to 2750)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 2:56 am

Sir Tornado - Nov 3, 2004 3:07 am (#2701 of 2916)
Rebel without a cause.
But then there are many theories that suggests that Ron's the one to die. So, don't forget that there's Ron Weasley/Moaning Myrtle ship to sail too

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Paulus Maximus - Nov 3, 2004 8:55 am (#2702 of 2916)

And Myrtle fancies Ron?

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Witta Woman - Nov 3, 2004 3:03 pm (#2703 of 2916)

hee! I read something once that had Draco and Myrtle together.

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Peskipinski - Nov 4, 2004 1:35 am (#2704 of 2916)

Crazy Genius
Not forgotten Muggle Doctor. Trying to forget.

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total hatred - Nov 4, 2004 5:08 am (#2705 of 2916)

I think Myrtle fancies Harry, not Ron.

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Annika - Nov 4, 2004 1:37 pm (#2706 of 2916)

I was re-reading OP and I came acrossed the funniest line. After the Harry/Cho kiss, it is mentioned by Ron that maybe Harry is a bad kisser. Ron's reaction to Hermione's response of (sorry, don't remember exact wording) "of course your not" is priceless.

Sorry I don't have the book with me, but it is worth taking a look.

Annika

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Sir Tornado - Nov 4, 2004 3:21 pm (#2707 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Yes

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total hatred - Nov 4, 2004 4:27 pm (#2708 of 2916)

I believe the response was to Harry. Here are the lines.

"Oh," said Ron, his smile fading slightly."Are you that bad at kissing?"

"Dunno," said Harry, who hadn't considered this, and immediately felt rather worried."Maybe I am."

"Of course you're not," said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter.

Does this imply that Mione and Harry kiss each other long time ago and in her opinion, Harry is not a bad kisser.

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Paulus Maximus - Nov 4, 2004 4:30 pm (#2709 of 2916)

That's what Ron thought, judging by his response...

If Harry and Hermy had kissed each other, Jo had glossed over it.

But Hermy proceeded to give a different reason for Cho's crying. Still, I find it odd that she said "Of course you're not" rather than "That's not why she was crying".

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Catherine - Nov 4, 2004 4:41 pm (#2710 of 2916)

Canon Seeker
I have never read into this scene that Harry and Hermione have shared a romantic kiss.

JKR has said that they have a platonic relationship.

Also, for me, the key word was "absently" in Hermione's response. She is automatically reassuring Harry, versus speaking from personal experience.

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total hatred - Nov 4, 2004 5:04 pm (#2711 of 2916)

I know that but what the others are thinking. In this forum, many people here have that annoying tendency to turn obscure facts into what they believe to be major clues and forcing people to believe them.

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Czarina II - Nov 4, 2004 7:48 pm (#2712 of 2916)

Whenever a friend of mine berates themself unnecessarily, my first response is something along the lines of "of course not". Hermione was just trying to reassure her best friend (Harry) that he shouldn't blame himself. Hermione would have said the same thing to a female best friend.

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Weeny Owl - Nov 4, 2004 10:54 pm (#2713 of 2916)

Whenever a friend of mine berates themself unnecessarily, my first response is something along the lines of "of course not". Hermione was just trying to reassure her best friend (Harry) that he shouldn't blame himself. Hermione would have said the same thing to a female best friend.

That's how I read it too. As Catherine said, JKR has already told us Harry and Hermione have a platonic relationship. She was just reassuring her friend that the reason Cho was crying didn't have anything to do with him since she cries so much anyway.

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Annika - Nov 5, 2004 6:58 am (#2714 of 2916)

What I found funny about the passage was not the thought that Harry and Hermione had shared a "moment," but Ron's apparent fear at the idea that they might have. After Hermione says "Of course you're not" Ron gives her a glare.

Sorry for the confusion. Like I said, it was Ron's response that I found funny.

Annika

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Loopy Lupin - Nov 5, 2004 7:16 am (#2715 of 2916)

In this forum, many people here have that annoying tendency to turn obscure facts into what they believe to be major clues and forcing people to believe them. -- total hatred

Well, if JKR would stop turning obscure facts into crucial plot points and/or plot twists, there would be no need to play detective. In the meantime, you're perfectly free to accept or reject any theory as you like; how "force" could come into play over the computer is beyond me.

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Sir Tornado - Nov 6, 2004 3:13 am (#2716 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Loopy Lupin is correct. Besides, I don't think Harry and Hermione have kissed... yet.

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Wispy Veil - Nov 6, 2004 5:30 pm (#2717 of 2916)

What I found funny about the passage was not the thought that Harry and Hermione had shared a "moment," but Ron's apparent fear at the idea that they might have. After Hermione says "Of course you're not" Ron gives her a glare. ---Annika

Me, too! His reaction, as always, was priceless!

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Sir Tornado - Nov 7, 2004 1:06 am (#2718 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Yes... insecure Ronny.

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Hermy-own - Nov 9, 2004 4:19 am (#2719 of 2916)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
And that is exactly why I think the scene is written as it is. Ron's glare is yet another clue suggesting his crush on Hermione -- I certainly got that impression.

Had Hermione's reply been, "that's not why she was crying," or something to that effect, we would not have seen Ron react the way he did.

More foreshadowing for the R/H 'ship, or just another red-herring?

As an aside, for me, this idea of Harry and Hermione sharing a romantic kiss doesn't wash.

Hermy.

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Czarina II - Nov 12, 2004 7:59 am (#2720 of 2916)

Has anyone read the recent editorial on Mugglenet that basically puts all the Harry-Ginny clues since PS into one place? Even if you aren't a Harry-Ginny shipper, it is a good read.

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Sir Tornado - Nov 13, 2004 2:39 pm (#2721 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Can you link it?

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Eponine - Nov 13, 2004 4:29 pm (#2722 of 2916)

I'm not Czarina II, but here's the link

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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KWeldon - Nov 14, 2004 2:24 pm (#2723 of 2916)

It's a nice essay. Ironically, the most convincing evidence for me was JKR's own comment about her parents meeting at King's Cross Station.

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Czarina II - Nov 15, 2004 8:09 pm (#2724 of 2916)

Thanks, Eponine.

I too thought the comment about King's Cross quite interesting. Why bother to have Ginny at the station in PS at all? She was not necessary.

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wwtMask - Nov 16, 2004 10:32 am (#2725 of 2916)

Didn't JKR say something about Harry's 'ship being a surprise? If that's so, I'd like to suggest the Harry/Eloise Midgen 'ship...

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Paulus Maximus - Nov 16, 2004 11:25 am (#2726 of 2916)

And it goes against a H/G 'ship, since it's too obvious...

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Loopy Lupin - Nov 16, 2004 12:32 pm (#2727 of 2916)

Where did she say Harry's 'ship would be a surprise?

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Eponine - Nov 16, 2004 1:32 pm (#2728 of 2916)

I think the quote would be this one...

From BBC News June 19, 2003 Interview with Jeremy Paxman

JEREMY PAXMAN: So there will be some pairing up will there in this book?

JK ROWLING: Well in the fullness of time.

JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that?

JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.

Some people think this quote means that no one has ever guessed Harry's 'ship, but others think she's referring to theories in general. It's really open to interpretation.

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ema fewett - Nov 16, 2004 3:19 pm (#2729 of 2916)

Hi guys! I was reading through the posts and was wondering about the Ron-Hermione love thing and all I saw were the speculations about whether they were going to go out and things like that. What I want to ask is, say that Ron and Hermione do get to gether and go out(which I think is definately going to happen), who will be the first to ask, "Will you go out with me?" and in which book do you thing this is going to happen?

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Dr Filibuster - Nov 16, 2004 3:33 pm (#2730 of 2916)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
Ema, do you remember when you first read OoP?

When we meet Ron and Hermione at 12 Grimmauld place, they have obviously spent some time together over the previous few weeks and even "exchange a look" at one point. I was certain that they were going out with each other.

There is a theory that they are seeing each other secretly and we don't know because Harry doesn't know yet. I do not subscribe to this theory.

Oh, in answer to your question, I think that however it happens JKR will make it hilarious to read.

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TomProffitt - Nov 16, 2004 7:22 pm (#2731 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
"There is a theory that they are seeing each other secretly and we don't know because Harry doesn't know yet. I do not subscribe to this theory." --- Dr Filibuster

I do. I just get a feel for it from the way Ron and Hermione are situated whenever Harry joins them late. It may just be in the way I see them personally. The strongest feeling I for it i got was when Jarry had just kissed Cho the first time.

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hellocello3200 - Nov 16, 2004 7:45 pm (#2732 of 2916)

Jarry? Whose that? : )

I would have to say I have Ron/Hermione ship tendencies, but ema's question got me to thinking how they would end up as a couple in the first place. They are both a little insecure in their own ways and it takes guts to put your neck on the line like that. I would be especially hard for Hermione or Ron because if one rejected the other, it would be really awkward. The only way I see one of them making a move is if they knew for sure that the other had feelings for them, but I have a hard time seeing JKR write a plot-line resembling elementary school romance where the So-in-so likes So-in-so goes on.

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Loopy Lupin - Nov 17, 2004 6:42 am (#2733 of 2916)

Oh, thanks Eponine. I'm well aware of that quote as it forms a large basis for the Harry/Pansy 'ship to which I subscribe. Some ponder whether Jo was still talking about 'ships when she started speaking of something no one had guessed yet. I do know that Marcus' H/P theory was formulated and set forth after that quote.

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Czarina II - Nov 17, 2004 10:09 am (#2734 of 2916)

One way I see Hermione and Ron getting together is the following:

Toward the beginning of HbP, Harry decides he has feelings for Luna (this works also for H/G and H/P ships), but she decides that she has feelings for Ron and sets out to get him, in order to offset Harry. Ron, meanwhile, is bent on winning Hermione's affection and grows frustrated with Luna's advances. At some point, he blows up in front of Hermione (and Luna and Harry) that he doesn't want to go out with Luna because he loves Hermione. In true Ron fashion, he won't realise who he just said this to until he does. Hermione will break out into tears or something and Ron will run to the dormitory in embarrassment, whatever. Next thing Harry knows, they're dating.

All right, so my scenario is a bit silly. Does it make any sense at all? JKR would make it much more literary and amusing, though. :-)

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haymoni - Nov 17, 2004 6:32 pm (#2735 of 2916)

Sorry, but I think Ron and Hermione are already there. I wouldn't be surprised if Ginny didn't have a hand in this. She would have been a very easy vehicle to use.

"Ginny, does Ron have a girlfriend back at the Burrow?"

"So, um, Ginny, did Hermione say anything about Krum after they went to the Yule Ball together?"

I think Hermione and Ginny are close and that they would talk a lot. Ron is closer than any of the brothers to Ginny. I'm sure they've shared a lot also.

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Ydnam96 - Nov 17, 2004 6:59 pm (#2736 of 2916)

I noticed yesterday while reading OotP that Hermione took Ron by the elbow and steared him into another room (Im sorry I dont have the book on me now). Just the way it read, I think it was during the Christmas holiday, it sounded as if she was quite comfortable doing this with Ron. She had spent all summer with him. If they aren't already "dating" I think that they could be very close.

(sorry I know it's vauge, I'll try to find this passage and comment on it more fully later)

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Czarina II - Nov 18, 2004 9:27 am (#2737 of 2916)

I don't think they're dating yet per se, but I think Ron and Hermione are definitely an item. My scenario was just a possibility. I like the idea of Ginny playing go-between and matchmaker. The part fits her well. It would also make for some interesting comedy.

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TomProffitt - Nov 19, 2004 1:46 pm (#2738 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
Don't forget, that although Ron and Harry are pretty much idiots when it comes to the opposite sex, Hermione is not. If Ron and Hermione aren't already together it will be Hermione who starts things off when she's ready.

She knows what to do.

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Richard Reid - Nov 20, 2004 9:26 pm (#2739 of 2916)

Edited by Nov 20, 2004 8:27 pm
Wait, from that previous quote about Paxman and JKR. I remember watching that interview, and if my memory serves me right, it's taken slightly out of context.

She did say she would not tell about the ship, however, the part of about "Not One..." was to do with something different. It was to do with no one guessing the final ending between Harry and Voldemort. It would seem that from those quotes that were posted, it is being assumed that "Not One..." person has guessed the right relationship.

I could be wrong, but that was not how I remembered the interview.

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Eponine - Nov 20, 2004 9:35 pm (#2740 of 2916)

Richard, that's how I've interpreted that quote. This particular line "There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it." just really says to me that it's not about 'ships.

I mean, how can you have skirted around a ship? You might be able to not quite get how two characters are going to end up together, but if someone's come out and said they think Harry and Millicent Bullstrode are going to end up together, that's not really skirting around it. It's coming right out and saying it.

I also don't see how any 'ship is going to explain everything, and I'm taking her at her word to mean EVERYTHING. Why Voldy attacked, why Harry was the chosen one, why Lily was offered to "stand aside, silly girl", EVERYTHING! I just don't see how a 'ship can do that.

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haymoni - Nov 21, 2004 7:33 am (#2741 of 2916)

At the time of the quote, though, most of the 'shipping debate was about Harry & Ginny or Harry & Hermione or Ron & Hermione. There weren't too many of us that were putting Harry with anyone else.

Hence, Prefect Marcus wondered - where's he been, by the way??? - who was the most unlikely pairing? Harry & Pansy. And another theory was born!

Jo could have been talking about theories in general. Anything is possible.

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Sir Tornado - Nov 21, 2004 7:36 am (#2742 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Don't forget, that although Ron and Harry are pretty much idiots when it comes to the opposite sex, Hermione is not. If Ron and Hermione aren't already together it will be Hermione who starts things off when she's ready.

She knows what to do.

Ask Harry out?

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TomProffitt - Nov 21, 2004 10:10 am (#2743 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
I don't think Hermione will ask anyone out. I think one day the target of her affections (I have Ron as my choice) will find themselves in the middle of a relationship with her and won't be quite certain how it happened at all.

But Hermione will know.

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Star Crossed - Nov 21, 2004 10:45 am (#2744 of 2916)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
She knows what to do.

Ask Harry out?

No, she knows the right thing to do. Very Happy

But I don't see Hermione asking anyone else. That's uncharacterisitic of her. If Hermione thinks Ron likes her, then she'll probably that if he likes her enough, he'll show it. If he doesn't like her, then he won't do anything, and they won't be any worse off.

In her eyes, at least.

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Czarina II - Nov 21, 2004 11:18 am (#2745 of 2916)

The only way that Hermione would ask anyone out would be indirectly, or not on an official date. Like this:

HERMIONE: "Ron, do you want some help with your Transfiguration essay?"

RON: "Um, ok."

HERMIONE: "Meet me in the library at six-thirty tonight, then, and we'll work on it."

Or perhaps on a visit to Hogsmeade:

HARRY: "I want to go take a look at that broom again in the Quidditch shop. It'll be faster than Ginny's broom and she could be a much better Chaser with a faster broom..." (disappears into the shop)

HERMIONE: "Um, Harry, wait?"

RON: "Ah, forget it!" (starts off in a huff over not being able to afford a new broom)

HERMIONE: (pulling his arm) "Wait a minute, Ron. Why don't we go on over to Madam Rosmerta's for a drink while Harry shops?"

In other words, not really on a date. ;-)

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IriSka - Nov 21, 2004 3:09 pm (#2746 of 2916)

"Meeting you was fate, becoming your friend was choice, but falling for you was beyond my control"
How will it all start - is the question I've been wondering about a lot. I still can't imagine what this conversation between Ron & hermione will look like. Not to mention that we probably need Harry to witness this, so we can read about it! Wink

The only idea I came up with, is that maybe there will be another ball, and this time Ron will ask Hermione first, and not as a last resort! lol Yep, that's how i see it!

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I Am Used Vlad - Nov 21, 2004 9:02 pm (#2747 of 2916)

I Am Almighty!
Although I've always thought it's pretty obvious that JKR is setting up a R/H 'ship, we may never see them actually dating in the books. If Harry's 'ship becomes a major part of the story, as many believe, than I could see Ron and Hermione dating, but if it doesn't, I think the trio will remain friends until the final battle, and Ron and Hermione's romantic relationship won't start until the last, "sum it all up" chapter of Book 7.

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Ydnam96 - Nov 21, 2004 10:28 pm (#2748 of 2916)

Oh, I hope we get to see Ron and Hermione together...it makes me smile just thinking about it. I think that it will add some needed lightness to the heavy goings-on that will most likely be a part of books 6 and 7.

Please JK Please!

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Sir Tornado - Nov 23, 2004 4:02 am (#2749 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Please JK Please!

Yes, Please don't let Ron and Hermione get together

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Czarina II - Nov 23, 2004 9:49 am (#2750 of 2916)

As much as I would like to see Ron and Hermione together, I would rather just read HbP! I don't really care -- I'm sure JKR will do a good job with whatever she chooses.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) (Post 2751 to 2800)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 2:57 am

total hatred - Nov 24, 2004 3:22 pm (#2751 of 2916)
As long it is not D/Hr, I am happy. I wish that Ron will mature or else, his role is starting to be just for comic relief

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Steve Newton - Nov 24, 2004 7:35 pm (#2752 of 2916)

Librarian
I have quietly thought that Ron and He5rmione would end up together. I now think that Harry and Hermione will be a pair, or, at least, that's what Hermione is heading for. I base this entirely on OOTP.

When Harry goes to the interview with Rita Hermione has told him to bring Cho. But she tells Rita not to ask about Harry's love life. So either Cho would get upset, like she did, when Harry mentions Hermione, or Rita would start picking away at Cho about Cedric. Either way Harry and Cho are in trouble.

What clinches it for me is in the last chapter. On the Hogwarts Express Cho and Marietta walk past the compartment where the trio is sitting. "His and Cho's eyes met for a moment. Cho blushed and kept walking. Harry looked back down at the chessboard just in time to see one of his pawns chased off its square by Ron's Knight." I think that this shows that Hermione pushed Cho off of the board. (Hermione being a knight is troublesome.) So I look at a major subtext of OOTP as being Hermione's fight to remove Cho from Harry's life.

Sorry if this sounds stupid.

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hellocello3200 - Nov 24, 2004 7:46 pm (#2753 of 2916)

I don't see Hermione maliciously undermining Harry's Chance's with a girl he likes, even if she did like him. She just isn't mean, an "insufferable know it all" at times yes, but mean, no.

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Sir Tornado - Nov 24, 2004 8:36 pm (#2754 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
She just isn't mean, an "insufferable know it all" at times yes, but mean, no.

That's not entirely true. Hermione is a great friend, a friend any one will wish to have. But lets not forget that she is a formidable enemy one, a person doesn't wish to have. Look what she did to Marrietta, if that wasn't mean, what was?

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Steve Newton - Nov 24, 2004 8:49 pm (#2755 of 2916)

Librarian
Marietta did it to herself.

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Czarina II - Nov 24, 2004 9:12 pm (#2756 of 2916)

Wrong thread, wrong thread!!! No Marietta on this thread unless you're pairing her with someone!

Sorry, pardon me for going off the deep end.

I remain a loyal Ron/Hermione shipper, but whatever JKR chooses is fine by me, since it's her story. Personally, I think Ron and Hermione will get together because I think they're suited, as well as because it follows a literary pattern. Hermione is really ill-suited for Harry in my opinion. My opinion only, of course, and the opinion of many other fans.

Harry has a much more important role in the series than that of romantic lead. His role is to defeat Voldemort. The entire axis of the story is centred around him. JKR isn't going to branch off and describe a romantic fling between Hermione and Harry. It would muck up the story too much. No, Harry will come to a romantic understanding slowly.

Another reason why I see Harry with someone other than Hermione is because Hermione already has a relationship with Harry -- that of advisor, best friend, and proxy-sister. One does not marry their sister! Yes, Hermione will always be Harry's best friend, but I don't see anything romantic coming of it. Also, in the next two books, Hermione's knowledge in an advisory role will be necessary. Hermione's role is complicated enough without making her Harry's love interest too. By contrary, another girl with whom Harry has a less developed relationship would bode well for him (Ginny or Luna, for instance).

Ironically, after reading OoP, I feel that Hermione and Harry are definitely NOT getting together.

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Sir Tornado - Nov 24, 2004 9:41 pm (#2757 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Wrong thread, wrong thread!!! No Marietta on this thread unless you're pairing her with someone!

Ah sorry Czarina

Personally, I find it right to Ship Ron and Marrietta. They have both turned their backs on their friends after all...

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Steve Newton - Nov 25, 2004 6:41 am (#2758 of 2916)

Librarian
Czarina II, sorry, I know I was treading on thin ice with the Marietta reference. Won't happen again!

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kabloink! - Nov 25, 2004 5:52 pm (#2759 of 2916)

Optician's Assistant
I am a huge fan of Ron and Hermione being together. It might not be a happily-ever-after kind of relationship, but they will at least date for awhile. I can't truly see Harry and Hermione getting together, they've become way too close as friends. I actually see them as closer than ROn and Hermione, simply because the tension is not there. If Hermione were to even contemplate Draco in a romantic sense, I think it would be to make ROn jealous. I can see Draco wanting Hermione, however. THe Forbidden Fruit theory is a good one, I think.

I would really like to see Harry with Ginny, I simply don't know if it will happen. I have no dislike for Luna, but I would much sooner pair Harry with Ginny than her.

If not with Harry, I see Ginny with Neville. He is becoming a very strong character.

I like the idea of Lupin and TOnks. She's saucy enough to brign a bit of sunshine to his life, he's serious enough to ground her. It makes sense.

I could continue commenting on some of the relationships that I've read in some of the original posts on this thread, but I think the football game is over....

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total hatred - Nov 26, 2004 3:44 pm (#2760 of 2916)

Using Czarina II argument as a base, I am saying that it is the H/Hr ship that will sail. I agree that Harry's role is to defeat Voldie but in order to defeat him, he must have a someone that will serve as a emotional anchor. Someone that will give him the will to fight back when the odds are not in their favor and give him the reason to continue to live. I believe that Hermione is that person being the closest person to him. Now that Sirius is dead which I believed gave Harry the strength to endure numerous hardships.

If if believed that Harry see Hermione as an advisor, best friend, and proxy-sister. I would say that Harrry see Ginny as a surrogate little sister.

I dont't believe that JKR will pair Ron and Mione just because it follows a literary pattern. I don't believe that Mione is shallow enough to accept Ron's love just because he gave him an expensive present. Hermione will choose someone that genuinely love her not because of her physical appearance but as a whole. Someone who will satify her needs.Please no pervert thoughts.

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Amilia Smith - Nov 26, 2004 5:10 pm (#2761 of 2916)

TH: I don't believe that Mione is shallow enough to accept Ron's love just because he gave him an expensive present.

Of course not! However, I do think that she realizes what a gesture an expensive present is on Ron's part. Ron worries constantly about money. For him to give an expensive gift says a lot about how he feels towards a certain person.

Mills.

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MickeyCee3948 - Nov 26, 2004 5:43 pm (#2762 of 2916)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Sir Tornado feel like stepping over to the Ron thread to discuss how and when he turned his back on his friends. To keep Czarina II peaceful, I agree with total hatred, I believe Harry needs a deep feeling with someone to continue on his path. I'm just at odds as to which girl will match up with. Hermione, Ginny or someone else?

Mikie

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Sir Tornado - Nov 26, 2004 8:27 pm (#2763 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Mickey, I have, many times over and over again given my views on Ron thread about Ron's behaviour in GoF. But most members here don't agree with me on that subject. Why waste more time and energy then?

I will though, provide links to my views on Ron's behaviour on Ron Weasley thread, so that you may read them.

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kabloink! - Nov 26, 2004 9:48 pm (#2764 of 2916)

Optician's Assistant
I was just reading through the assumption thread, and I wanted to bring this point up here. One of the major forces that seems to protect Harry from Voldemort is love. THe love of his mother, his love for Sirius, etc. Who is to say that perhaps an unconditional love for his soul mate will not come up as a battling point with Voldemort? I suppose I am being EXTREMELY romantic, but hey, that's me.

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Weeny Owl - Nov 27, 2004 12:46 am (#2765 of 2916)

I was talking with some friends tonight who insist that Harry will die in the seventh book. I don't agree, but I do see that it is a possibility.

If Harry does bite the dust and is out of the romantic picture, who do you see the females in his life with then? Hermione, Ginny, Luna, Padma, Parvati, Susan, Pansy, Hannah, and any others I've forgotten?

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Gryffindor Ghost - Nov 27, 2004 3:44 am (#2766 of 2916)

How about this for a theory?

Of the six students (and members of the D.A.) who went to the Department of Mysteries, three can see the thestrals and the other three couldn't.

Those three were Harry, Neville, and Luna.

The three who can't see the thestrals are Hermione, Ginny, and Ron.

Now tell me, don't you guys see the symbolism here? (JK Rowling's quote: "You have to read between the lines on that one.")

Not saying any more, but figure it out.

By the way, keep up the fight, Sir Tornado. I sincerely hope I can help you but I'm afraid I can't be online so often. But to all H/Hr shippers out there, we may be the underdogs, but we're NOT gonna give up, right? And remember, underdogs have got no pressure on them, and they often upset the favorites in sports events!

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Sir Tornado - Nov 27, 2004 5:53 am (#2767 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
I agree Gryffindor Ghost. Though I don't post much on this HP forum anymore, I think we can put up one last ditch fight before WX introduces the new rules... we are the underdogs, of course, so as you said, no pressure Then again, I tell to each and every R/Hr shipper I meet to wait till the seventh book is released... and they tell me the same thing!

IMHO, we,(atleast I) have haggled enough on Ships (especially with S.E. Jones!) on this thread alone so as to prove and disprove each and every point thrice over, but no one is convinced! IMO, the only person who can displace a person's shipping preferences is JKR herself, but she's keeping quiet and enjoying us argue over here...

Feel free to disagree on that!!!

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ema fewett - Nov 27, 2004 11:06 am (#2768 of 2916)

All you "underdogs" out there, I'm really impressed with your argument:)lol. But have you ever wondered why they would give hints in the movies that Hermione and Ron might get to gether sometime? I mean, I'm almost certain that the directors and producers that have been making the movies these past few years have talked to JKR about Harry's future and the future of Ron and Hermione. Also, if you've seen some of the interviews of Rupert Grint and Emma Watson, they say that there's deffinately more than friendship between Ron and Hermione. I mean, I dont know if JKR would have told them what will happen to all three characters in the end, but I'm sure they would have got some purks in the sense that they must have been told about the relationships. Afterall, they're the ones who're playing those characters. Your opinions?

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Hollywand - Nov 27, 2004 11:54 am (#2769 of 2916)

Gryffindor
Methinks the Lion's Tail is being twisted.

Nothing will bring the crocodiles out of the swamp like romantic jealousy. As readers are being lead toward the Ron/Hermione relationship, the unexpected approaches.

Can't say if it will be Krum, Harry, Draco or Voldemort, but I've got my umbrella ready for the malestrom.

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Sir Tornado - Nov 27, 2004 12:08 pm (#2770 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
All you "underdogs" out there, I'm really impressed with your argument:)lol. But have you ever wondered why they would give hints in the movies that Hermione and Ron might get to gether sometime? I mean, I'm almost certain that the directors and producers that have been making the movies these past few years have talked to JKR about Harry's future and the future of Ron and Hermione. Also, if you've seen some of the interviews of Rupert Grint and Emma Watson, they say that there's deffinately more than friendship between Ron and Hermione. I mean, I dont know if JKR would have told them what will happen to all three characters in the end, but I'm sure they would have got some purks in the sense that they must have been told about the relationships. Afterall, they're the ones who're playing those characters. Your opinions? -- ema fawcett

Ema, like I said, I have discussed almost everypoint on the Shipping subject time and time again on this thread. My standard response to your post would be:

Movies aren't canon. This thread, is primarily about discussion about 'ships in the books, not in the Movies. But even then, JKR is famous for not telling anything Potter, IMO, not even to the Directors. My opinions are based on the following incident:

After the release of OotP, Chris Rankin (The Actor who plays Percy) got a lot of hate mail. (obvious reasons for that) So, he asked JKR if Percy would be better in the next book and JKR gave him an evasive answer (Like she always does if anyone asks her any thing about future HP books) Later Chris Rankin commented that JKR didn't tell him much, but he was able to get more information from her than anyone has (Something to that effect). That, IMO confirms that JKR did not give away much to the Actors.

The R/Hr scenes in the Movie aren't canon, so they cannot be considered of any revelance to the 'Shipping in the books

I'm sorry I wasn't able to quote, but what I said, is true. Then, again, I think we are Off topic as we aren't supposed to discuss Movies on this thread anyway...

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kabloink! - Nov 27, 2004 1:29 pm (#2771 of 2916)

Optician's Assistant
Wel, given that we are discussing how the movies relate to the issue of future relationships, I think it fits. I will, however happily move away from movies after I make this one point. While I'm sure that JKR does not tell the actors TOO much more than she would tell us, if I remember correctly, she did at one point say that the movies do give away a bit of insight into the Ron Hermione relationship. I dont remember for sure where that was, but I do remember that she brought it up.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Nov 28, 2004 2:17 am (#2772 of 2916)

Here is another set of symbolisms in OotP:

During the battle in the Department of Mysteries, the first three students (and D.A. members) who were injured were: Hermione, Ron, and Ginny.

The three who were not injured (or were injured later) were: Harry, Luna, Neville.

Hermione was cursed by Dolohov, Ron was hit with something that made him act in a funny way, and Ginny broke her ankle.

Harry, on the other hand, emerged from the battle unscathed, Neville only broke his nose, and Luna, after being Stunned, recovered quite quickly. But Neville and Luna suffered these injuries much later than Hermione, Ron, and Ginny. In fact, for a while in the room where the circular wall with the doors revolve, the uninjured group (H/N/L) supported the injured group (R/H/G). Harry supported Ron, Neville had Hermione on his shoulders, and Luna took care of Ginny. The pairings here were completely shuffled (take a look at the color codes), but still the symbolism is there (for those not too blind or too biased, anyway). Come on, people. Put them together, it's not that difficult!

Not convinced yet? Here's another one:

During their train ride to Hogwarts on the first day of school, these six students also shared one compartment. Their pairings here will surely mislead people: Harry/Ginny, Neville/Luna, Ron/Hermione. Most of us (those who do not like to think and analyze, anyway) will think that this is a solid evidence of the ships that will sail, but I beg to disagree. IMO, this scenario is also the same as that in the DoM battle. Again, take a look at the color codes and let me see what you can see. It's not exactly the same shuffled pairing, but the symbolism is stil there. The real pairs were completely and evenly separated.

And Sir Tornado is right (again). Movie hints for Ron/Hermione are NOT canon. They're not hints, either, since they provide "very obvious" evidence. IMO, these are just skin deep, and the real hints (just like in the books) can only be found by reading between the lines (in the movies' case, watching between the frames). anyway, that's just my opinion, and I'm not wasting my time and energy trying to convince those who are too stubborn and too narrow-minded (not to mention too lazy to analyze the clues objectively and logically).

Oh, and before I say goodbye, I just want to voice my observation about the big difference between the H/Hr and other shippers: H/Hr shippers normally do not bash other ships, while other shippers normally bash the H/Hr ship! Also, H/Hr shippers focus more on the clues in favor of our ship but other ships focus more on the clues and "evidences" against the H/Hr ship. And, when it comes to theories and essays, I think H/Hr shippers have produced more than all the other ships put together. Meaning, we (the H/Hr shippers) have more clues, more hints, and do more readings between the lines.

Quotes from J.K. Rowling:

Edinburgh Book Festival

Q: Will Ron and Hermione ever get together?

JK: Well—[Laughter.] What do you think? [Audience member: I think they will]. I’m not going to say. I can’t say, can I? I think that, by now, I’ve given quite a lot of clues on the subject. That is all I’m going to say. You will have to read between the lines on that one.

Note: Emphasis mine, but the quote was directly from Ms. Rowling's own website, J.K. Rowling.com.

Need I say any more?

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Sir Tornado - Nov 28, 2004 11:50 am (#2773 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Good Points Gryffindor Ghost. But I think it would be better if you explain the colour codes and all a bit more.

I just want to voice my observation about the big difference between the H/Hr and other shippers: H/Hr shippers normally do not bash other ships, while other shippers normally bash the H/Hr ship! Also, H/Hr shippers focus more on the clues in favor of our ship but other ships focus more on the clues and evidences against the H/Hr ship. -- Gryffindor Ghost

I disagree there.

And, when it comes to theories and essays, I think H/Hr shippers have produced more than all the other ships put together. -- Gryffindor Ghost

I agree.

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total hatred - Nov 28, 2004 3:51 pm (#2774 of 2916)

I don't agree with you Sir Tornado. We don't bash other ship theories but we attack the weak points of their arguments. What may be their greatest strength may be their greatest weakness

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Hermy-own - Nov 28, 2004 4:49 pm (#2775 of 2916)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
"Im not wasting my time and energy trying to convince those who are too stubborn and too narrow-minded (not to mention too lazy to analyze the clues objectively and logically)."

Who is being stubborn and narrow-minded? Surely you are not saying that R/Hr 'shippers are stubborn and narrow-minded because they fail to see your point of view? That's what you imply, anyway!

"Meaning, we (the H/Hr shippers) have more clues, more hints, and do more readings between the lines."

I think the majority of forum members (if not all) read between the lines, regardless of the 'ship they favor. I spend a lot of time looking out for hidden clues, and of those I have found, none really point to a H/Hr 'ship, in my opinion. And I'm sure there are others to whom this would also apply to. By the same token, you have interpreted the books in such a way that the H/Hr 'ship is obvious to you. Again, I'm sure there are others who are partial to this 'ship. My point is each of us is entitled to an opinion. Yes, we may be reading the same books, but our opinions, theories, and ideas will differ. Why not accept this?

Hermy.

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ema fewett - Nov 28, 2004 5:09 pm (#2776 of 2916)

Kudos to you Hermy! Just what I wanted to say!

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kabloink! - Nov 28, 2004 7:27 pm (#2777 of 2916)

Optician's Assistant
OKay, I wish to say first and foremost that while I prefer a R/Hr 'ship, I have not attacked a H/Hr 'ship, I simply do not see it happening. I have, however, not put forth any evidence as of yet to support my opinion (perhaps I will do this over my winter break).

Gryffindor Ghost, the first post withthe color coding made a LOT of sense, I do have to say, though that this last post kind of confused me as to how this evidence supported your theories.

I also want to say that I understand that we are all very passionate about what 'ship we prefer, or would rather not see happen. THis does not call for personal attacks against each other and each other's differing opinions.

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Weeny Owl - Nov 28, 2004 9:58 pm (#2778 of 2916)

I think the majority of forum members (if not all) read between the lines, regardless of the 'ship they favor. I spend a lot of time looking out for hidden clues, and of those I have found, none really point to a H/Hr 'ship, in my opinion. And I'm sure there are others to whom this would also apply to. By the same token, you have interpreted the books in such a way that the H/Hr 'ship is obvious to you. Again, I'm sure there are others who are partial to this 'ship. My point is each of us is entitled to an opinion. Yes, we may be reading the same books, but our opinions, theories, and ideas will differ. Why not accept this?

I've read the books at least a dozen times each. I've looked at GoF in particular, and later with OotP as well, and still come to the same conclusions that Ron and Hermione are destined to be together. That is how I interpret their passages with each other.

With Harry and Hermione, I just cannot find anything other than friendship, particularly when he flat-out said Hermione wasn't his girlfriend. Nothing in OotP led me to believe that this had changed.

Having said that, I don't think that anyone who sees relationships differently than I do is lazy, isn't reading the books thoroughly, or otherwise can't see the forest for the trees. I simply feel that that person has had different life experiences that have led him/her to a different conclusion than the one my life experiences has led me to.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Nov 29, 2004 12:07 am (#2779 of 2916)

What I mean by the color codes in my last post is that, the pairings were completely shuffled.

Okay, people, don't bite my head off. If you have read my last post carefully, you'll find that I am not, repeat, NOT referring to all R/Hr, H/G, and other shippers, but to some members of your ships who DO bash our ship. I can see no reason to be angry with me if you are not guilty, but if you're reacting so strongly, then maybe your conscience was uneasy? Let me state plainly that I do not, repeat, DO NOT attack other shippers in general, but only those who are too narrow-minded to accept the opinions of other people. Actually, I salute those who accept our opinions and offer only counter-opinions and not blatant insult and intimidation. Hermy-own said that each of us is entitled to our own opinion, and I agree to that; and as these are my opinions, I believe I am entitled to them, am I not? I hope I made myself clear.

Now, let me move on to my dose of arguments for the day.

A lot of people think that Hermione and Ron would eventually get together, but I beg to disagree. Some of my reasons were already discussed, so allow me to add another: Quidditch.

Yes, Quidditch. The one reason I think nobody had ever used before. The fact that Ron, like Harry, is now a member of the Gryffindor Quidditch team makes it easier for us to gauge Hermione's feelings for the two boys when it comes to Quidditch. Hermione, for instance, during the party in honor of Ron's being made Gryffindor Keeper, fell asleep and was heard to express great relief to have an excuse to go to bed. The reason, she said, is that she's absolutely exhausted because she was up until one o'clock making more elf hats. Now, compare that with Harry's match against Ravenclaw in their third year. She too was very exhausted during that time, what with taking twelve subjects and helping Hagrid with the defense for Buckbeak, but she even managed to watch the match, even if she still's got a lot of work to do! Also during the first match in OotP, when Harry was still playing, she wore a Gryffindor scarf and watched the match with Ginny, looking quite cheerful and supportive of the two boys, but when Harry was suspended, she definitely said "my happiness doesn't depend on Ron's goalkeeping ability" and that Quidditch is "just a game." And later, the author explained her expression that her happiness doesn't depend on Ron's ability means she doesn't care about Quidditch! Wondering where I got that? Why, from Harry, of course! He said (or thought), "and though Harry would rather jump off the Astronomy Tower than admit it to her (Hermione), he would have given anything not to care about Quidditch, either." Okay, that's not the quote in toto, but it was something like that. Then, during the Quidditch Final, which was supposed to be a major event for Ron, she left the game to go with Harry! I really can't imagine that attitude from a girl who, just four years ago, was "squinting fixedly at Harry" while he played, who was screaming, "Come on, Harry!" as he dived for the Snitch, and who did not even notice Ron "rolling around under her seat" fighting with Malfoy. Come on, people. Just figure it out: She definitely likes Quidditch when Harry is playing, but doesn't give a damn about it when he's out of the team, even if Ron (who, some people say, is her crush) is playing.

Now, lemme hear what'cha think abou' tha', eh?

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total hatred - Nov 29, 2004 12:18 am (#2780 of 2916)

I agree to you Gryffidor Ghost. What bugs me is Hermione's extreme loyalty to Harry. There are times that she made sacrifices just to help or please Harry. As if she is his personal house elf. I only mean that she acting like one

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Gryffindor Ghost - Nov 29, 2004 12:36 am (#2781 of 2916)

I think that's the opposite of your name, total hatred, it's total love. She just loves him as much as he loves her, but they're completely oblivious to that fact. Still, not complaining, two more books to go, and plenty of time for them to realize their love for each other, the love I think will be the one to vanquish Lord Voldemort for good. After all, Harry's love for Sirius enabled him to throw off Voldemort from him, didn't it? I can only imagine what his love for Hermione can do to the Dark Lord. Reduce him to Voldy-puddle, perhaps? Or Lord Worthless-pile-of-goo?

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Sir Tornado - Nov 29, 2004 2:36 am (#2782 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Here's the reaction I expect an R/Hr shipper to give to your post Gryffindor Ghost:

I'm sorry Gryffindor Ghost, but the incident that you mentioned only shows that Hermione likes Harry as a friend.
Am I correct?

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The Artful Dodger - Nov 29, 2004 4:36 am (#2783 of 2916)

I'm a R/Hr shipper, and my reaction is: Does Harry care if Hermione is watching his Quidditch matches?

P.S. Why does Hermione kiss Ron on the cheek before his first match if she doesn't care about Quidditch when Ron is playing?

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The Artful Dodger - Nov 29, 2004 5:10 am (#2784 of 2916)

P.P.S. If Hermione's happiness does not depend on Ron's goalkeeping abilities, does it depend on Harry's seeking abilities, then?

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kabloink! - Nov 29, 2004 6:59 am (#2785 of 2916)

Optician's Assistant
Well, earlier when Hermione was watching Harry so diligently, she was sitting in the stands next to ROn. I'd also like to point out that when Hermione and Harry left the stands it was for Hagrid. HARRY even left the match, and he LOVES Quidditch. In all honesty I don't think that that is really a good example.

As far as the after party goes, if she was so tired, why else would she have stayed up in the first place, except to show her support to ROn?

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Loopy Lupin - Nov 29, 2004 11:30 am (#2786 of 2916)

Then, during the Quidditch Final, which was supposed to be a major event for Ron, she left the game to go with Harry!-- Gryffindor Ghost

She left the match to go with Hagrid as he was all but begging both Harry and her to leave.

I suppose anyone can "read between the lines" to suit themselves and interpret things however they like. The only thing that has ever occurred in all of the books that is remotely concrete is the fight after the Yule Ball. Hermione's feelings after that fight seem dead obvious to me as well as, apparently, Harry himself.

As for the hints in the movies, it is true that movies are not canon. But, I believe JKR's statements are. She observed(paraphrasing) that there were things in POA that foreshadowed coming events and that people would, later, contend that the foreshadowing was purposeful. Thus, I think it is entirely legitimate, even in this thread, to theorize that JKR was referring to the numerous instances of affection/tension between R/Hr in the POA movie.

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kabloink! - Nov 29, 2004 11:49 am (#2787 of 2916)

Optician's Assistant
Loopy Lupin, I agree. THe fight was very telling as to the relationship between Ron and Hermione, which is why I was so greatly upset that it was not really touched on in OotP. Perhaps she was so busy dealing with Harry's emotions that she felt it would be better to deal with other 'ships later?

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KWeldon - Nov 29, 2004 12:08 pm (#2788 of 2916)

Perhaps she was so busy dealing with Harry's emotions that she felt it would be better to deal with other 'ships later?

Or, she and Ron already have started a relationship that Harry is unaware of. They may have kept it from him strictly so he wouldn't feel excluded from yet another thing that they get to do (i.e. stay at 12GP, be prefects, etc.).

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wwtMask - Nov 29, 2004 3:02 pm (#2789 of 2916)

I'd like to point out that, if movie hints are admissable, PoA had a fair number of H/Hr moments, perhaps as many R/Hr moments. One that comes to mind is the scene where Harry and Hermione are trying to evade werewolf Lupin in the forest.

That said, while I like the idea of H/Hr, R/Hr has been overtly hinted at since SS. That'd be one huge red herring if the two didn't end up together eventually. Maybe she'll have Hermione date Harry then, later, Ron (or vice versa). Then both sides would be right.

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Loopy Lupin - Nov 29, 2004 3:27 pm (#2790 of 2916)

One that comes to mind is the scene where Harry and Hermione are trying to evade werewolf Lupin in the forest. -- wwtMask

Well, I can't say that I agree with you there Mask. Harry holding onto Hermione and sheilding her from harm in the face of a werewolf attack speaks more to Harry's bravery than romance. Of course, if Harry had chucked Hermione at Werewolf Lupin to save his own hide, that would certainly have resolved a lot of this debate.

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Eponine - Nov 29, 2004 3:40 pm (#2791 of 2916)

I agree with Loopy. I don't think that particular scene proves Harry's feelings for Hermione are romantic in nature. I think that Harry would have done the same thing for almost anyone. Maybe not Malfoy...

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Ladybug220 - Nov 29, 2004 3:41 pm (#2792 of 2916)

...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Of course, if Harry had chucked Hermione at Werewolf Lupin to save his own hide, that would certainly have resolved a lot of this debate.

Thanks for the laugh Loopy - that was a SPEW moment for me!

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TomProffitt - Nov 29, 2004 5:03 pm (#2793 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
In OotP, Hermione tells Harry that she only kept going on about how great skiing was, because Ron thought it was stupid. Ron and Hermione enjoy their verbal sparring. To them it is fun. Harry is unable to comprehend that the two of them are doing it out of enjoyment and not out of anger or some other emotion. Occasionally one of them two will get a bit upset, but they always want to come back to it.

Harry, on the other hand is oblivious to their motivations. I think this shows that Harry is just not a good match for Hermione. It's the subtle things in a relationship as much as the big things that are important. Harry and Hermione click on the big issues, but there's not a whole lot of spark after that. Conversely, Hermione and Ron seem to click on the little things.

This is why I think the Ron & Hermione relationship is obvious.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Nov 29, 2004 9:14 pm (#2794 of 2916)

Yes, Sir Tornado, but I will pose this question for them:

Why does Hermione care so much about Harry and why does she support him openly and enthusiastically during his Quidditch match but she doesn't do the same for Ron? You're not telling me that Ron isn't her friend? So if she's doing all those things just because she likes Harry as a friend, why can't she do them for Ron, who is supposedly her crush? It just doesn't make sense.

She left the match to go with Hagrid as he was all but begging both Harry and her to leave. - Loopy Lupin

You're not telling me Harry isn't with them? I know I only mentioned Harry but I imagined that all of us knew that Hagrid was with them. The point here is, she left Ron's important game to be with Harry (and Hagrid). And in case you haven't noticed, Harry was the one who was most reluctant to leave the game.

QUOTE: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, Chapter 30 - Grawp

"Er, can't it wait, Hagrid? Until after the match?"

Okay, that's not the exact quote (I don't have the book with me) but Harry said something to that effect. Hermione, on the other hand, hasn't uttered a single word of refusal, and I don't think she's concentrating on the game, because Harry will certainly see her if she is. And mark this, Harry was the one who decided for the two of them, when he said, "'Course, 'course we'll come." He didn't even consult her, meaning he knew that she will agree. What, are they able to communicate through mental telepathy? As for me, if she really loves Ron as more than a friend, she could've stayed behind. And by the way, Harry never mentioned that she was wearing Gryffindor scarves, gloves and rosettes during that Quidditch Final and during the match against Hufflepuff, where she and Harry watched from the sidelines. And to think, during Harry's first and last match of that season, she was looking every inch a Gryffindor (and Harry) supporter!

And might I remind you all that movie scenes are not relevant to the topic here because movies aren't canon. But if you want to discuss them, fine. What about that Quidditch scene in the third movie where practically all Gryffindors were shouting "GO,GO, GRYFFINDOR!" at the top of their lungs, all except Hermione, who was shrieking even louder than all of them, "GO, HARRY! GO, HARRY!" and then the scene where Harry was falling, and the camera zooms in to Hermione's stricken face as she watches him take the fatal plunge, before it cuts to Dumbledore saying, "Arresto Momentum!" and eventually fades out. What about that, eh? I mean, Ron was beside Hermione, right? Why don't they just show both him and Hermione watching in horror as Harry falls? After all, Ron is also Harry's best friend, isn't he?

Now, as to the number of H/Hr moments in the third film, just take a look at this link so you'll be able to find out, and I'm sure they're more numerous than R/Hr moments.

As to red herrings in the series, many of them happen to be about R/Hr, and leads many people to misinterpret the clues.

Also, do you not find that what you are saying seems a bit contradicting? You all say that R/Hr is so obvious, but then, after J.K. says we have to read between the lines, you make a double take and say, you have many clues and "readings between the lines."

And please, please tell me why Harry is not a good match for Hermione? What little things? What big things? Dear, dear, not very clear, are we?

And don't you dare say that Harry will ever abandon Hermione to save his own skin! IMO, Ron is more likely to do that. You ask me why? Just read Goblet of Fire more carefully, will you? What about that "I warned her! I warned her not to annoy Rita Skeeter! Blimey, she'd better watch out for herself!" statement Ron said after Hermione received hate mails? The emphasis is, of course, mine. But compare that statement Harry had back in Chamber of Secrets: "I'm not going anywhere! One of my best friends is Muggle-born, she'll be first in line if the Chamber really is opened again!" See? How dare you say Harry will ever abandon Hermione! I just hope Ms. Rowling didn't read that part, I'm sure she'd be really pissed off!

And then again let me point out (with evidence) that Ron and Hermione are NOT, repeat NOT dating in OotP. Read Chapter Fifteen - The Hogwarts High Inquisitor more carefully and you'll see why. Ron asked Hermione about Viktor Krum, and by the looks of it, he's got no idea as to whether Hermione and Viktor are still in contact. How can that be possible if Ron and Hermione are dating? Surely, she will assure Ron that he had nothing to fear because Viktor is, just like she said, just a penpal? &nbap;That scene just proves that Ron and Hermione are not dating in secret.

I'm not saying Hermione's happiness depends on Harry's Seeking and Snitch-catching ability. You'd have to ask her personally, I'm afraid.

And, that kiss on the cheek was for good luck, and to confuse and distract Ron so he'll not notice the Slytherins' "Weasley is our King" badges. And come to think of it, it worked, didn't it? And also based on the rules of grammar for dashes, it seems that Hermione had also kissed Harry. Besides, it's Ron's first game, isn't it? Hermione was just cheering him up, since he was so nervous. And I'm not saying Hermione doesn't care about Quidditch or Ron during that time, because at that time, Harry was still playing, remember? I'm not saying Hermione doesn't care about Ron or his welfare, because that'll be a stupid thing to say. After all, she cried when Ron was nearly stabbed by Sirius (though we found out later that Sirius didn't mean to) back in their third year. No, what I'm saying is, Hermione seems to have lost interest in Quidditch after Harry was banned from playing, even if Ron was still playing. There are a lot of canon evidences for that, and as I have already enumerated most of them, it's up to you to analyze and decide.

I hope I've made my point. And sorry if I was a bit carried away, and the post is quite long, but I wanted to explain all those arguments away. Keep 'em coming.

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Eponine - Nov 29, 2004 9:32 pm (#2795 of 2916)

Gryffindor Ghost, I don't believe anyone was suggesting Harry would abandon Hermione to save his own skin, particularly to a werewolf. I believe the point was that (movie) Harry shielding Hermione from were-Lupin cannot conclusively be used to support a Harry/Hermione 'ship as Harry has a tendency to grab anything that's breathing in his vicinity in the face of danger. It's something Harry would have done for anyone. I don't see Harry thinking to himself, "Well, I don't love her like that, so I'd better not save her because she might misconstrue my intentions as something more than friendship." Actually I don't see Harry thinking the word misconstrue at all, but you get the point.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Nov 29, 2004 9:50 pm (#2796 of 2916)

I'm sorry but I disagree with you, Eponine. Loopy Lupin definitely said this:

Of course, if Harry had chucked Hermione at Werewolf Lupin to save his own hide, that would certainly have resolved a lot of this debate.

I would also like to reiterate that this (act of protecting other people, or as Hermione puts it, "saving-people-thing") is not something Harry would have done to just anyone. If you read carefully Chapters Thirty-Four (The Department of Mysteries) and Thirty-Five (Beyond the Veil), you will see that during the encounter with the Death Eaters, Harry was standing beside Neville, and Hermione was behind Harry (the clue here is that Harry felt Neville shaking beside him, and Harry felt Hermione pass the instruction to the others behind him. But guess who he grabbed when the shelves exploded and deluged all of them with splintered wood and broken glass? Hermione! He grabbed Hermione who was behind him, rather than Neville who's just beside him! And add the fact that he knew Hermione was quite capable of defending herself and was better at fighting than Neville (well, Neville was improving, but she's still way ahead of Neville). Grabbing Neville or Ginny would have been the more logical thing to do, but Harry, subconsciously, chose to save Hermione.

Think about that, will you?

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Eponine - Nov 29, 2004 9:56 pm (#2797 of 2916)

I believe that Loopy was joking about Harry shoving Hermione away to save himself.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Nov 29, 2004 10:01 pm (#2798 of 2916)

That was a bad joke, then.

Oh, and by the way, someone mentioned in the previous posts if Harry cares about whether Hermione is watching his matches. Well, he does! In PoA, Harry, upon seeing Hermione reading a book while everybody else celebrated their victory over Ravenclaw, went over to her and asked her if "she even came to the match," and she replied that she did, in a higher voice than usual. If you ask me, she seems to be a bit disconcerted that Harry had asked her like he didn't think she'll spare some time for him. After all, despite all the work she had to do she still managed to watch his game.

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Weeny Owl - Nov 29, 2004 11:32 pm (#2799 of 2916)

if she's doing all those things just because she likes Harry as a friend, why can't she do them for Ron, who is supposedly her crush? It just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense. Harry has been attacked by dementors, tried before the entire Wizengamot, had encounters with Umbridge, and so on and so on. She's encountered his anger, and as a friend, she knows he is emotionally fragile at this point.

In PoA, Harry, upon seeing Hermione reading a book while everybody else celebrated their victory over Ravenclaw, went over to her and asked her if "she even came to the match," and she replied that she did, in a higher voice than usual. If you ask me, she seems to be a bit disconcerted that Harry had asked her like he didn't think she'll spare some time for him.

Hermione was stressed over the use of the Time Turner and her incredibly heavy class load, plus she was feeling sensitive since she and Ron weren't getting along. It seems to me that it was nothing more than the pressures that she had been accumulating.

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Peskipinski - Nov 29, 2004 11:35 pm (#2800 of 2916)

Crazy Genius
But guess who he grabbed when the shelves exploded and deluged all of them with splintered wood and broken glass? Hermione! He grabbed Hermione who was behind him, rather than Neville who's just beside him!
Seemed more like a blind grab to me. If Ron had been in that spot he would have grabbed Ron instead. I think the book even says that he grabbed the person nearest to him. My copy is loaned out right now, so I can't check, but it does seem logical that with hundreds of glass balls falling around you that you just grab the first person in reach and run.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) (Post 2801 to 2850)

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Sir Tornado - Nov 30, 2004 3:47 am (#2801 of 2916)
Rebel without a cause.
Gryffindor Ghost, thank goodness you came up with some H/Hr moments other than just some symbolism, that I don't think R/Hr honestly will ever believe in. Good points though!

Weeny Owl... that was a very stange point you made in your last post for an R/Hr shipper:

It makes perfect sense. Harry has been attacked by dementors, tried before the entire Wizengamot, had encounters with Umbridge, and so on and so on. She's encountered his anger, and as a friend, she knows he is emotionally fragile at this point.
What you just did Weeny, was that you just agreed that Hermione cares more about Harry than about Ron because Harry has been through a lot. That isn't possible if she's madly in love with Ron as most R/Hr shippers claim is it?

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Gryffindor Ghost - Nov 30, 2004 5:33 am (#2802 of 2916)

Edited by Denise P. Nov 30, 2004 11:12 am

"It makes perfect sense. Harry has been attacked by dementors, tried before the entire Wizengamot, had encounters with Umbridge, and so on and so on. She's encountered his anger, and as a friend, she knows he is emotionally fragile at this point." - Weeny Owl

Yes, Harry's been through all that, we know, but the point I'm trying to make here is, Hermione seems to be over the moon about Harry — about Quidditch, his emotions, his problems, his dreams, and even his lovelife! Now, if she's madly, totally, head-over-heels in love with Ron, she would've given him at least about the same amount of time she's giving Harry, but she doesn't! Now, I know I'm not exactly Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise, or any other handsome and famous male personality, but my girlfriend always sees to it that she prioritizes me over other less important things. Sometimes it becomes so annoying that she keeps fussing about me in almost all aspects of my life, she's even worse than my mother (and my mother is also fussy, mind you!) I mean, all she tells me is that she's hopelessly in love with me and who am I to question that since I feel the same thing? Now, before you all start calling me "braggart" or "bigheaded" or "arrogant jerk", I just wanted to use that as my example. That's how a person acts when they're in love. Now, you might say that it differs from one girl to another, but I think, when it comes to love, all people are the same: mental. That, in my humble opinion, is exactly how Hermione feels about Harry, but she just doesn't feel the same way for Ron.

Forgotten Marauder, you say that in the book, Harry grabbed the person nearest to him, but as far as I know, Neville was the one right beside him, and Hermione was behind Harry. (By the way, did you read my previous post thoroughly? I think I described their positions there) Like you, I don't have the book right now, 'cause I'm only using a public computer in a computer center (I don't have one), but as far as I can recall, Hermione was behind Harry and Neville was right beside him. He didn't grab the nearest person, he "grabbed a handful of Hermione's robes" and flung her forward or something, I can't remember (but I'll check on it later and I'll post the exact quote tomorrow). Yes, you can see that Hermione was definitely mentioned, and not "someone" so it can't have been a "blind grab". It's just pure instinct on Harry's part to save the one he loves first.

Good point, Sir Tornado, but I feel that you and I are the last men standing here, aren't we? CALLING ALL OTHER PUMPKINEERS AND HARMONIANS! Help us here, (though we're not losing, just help us anyway, so we'll make an even stronger stand).

Oh and by the way, Weeny Owl, what's with this statement, anyway?

"Hermione was stressed over the use of the Time Turner and her incredibly heavy class load, plus she was feeling sensitive since she and Ron weren't getting along. It seems to me that it was nothing more than the pressures that she had been accumulating." - Weeny Owl

Are you reinforcing my point here? Why, thank you!

Perhaps what you really wanna say is that Hermione's "slightly higher voice than usual" is due to her immense workload? Correct me if I got it wrong but that's how I see your comment here. Yes, that may be the case but the stronger point I am trying to make is, heavy and huge as Hermione's workload is, she still managed to watch Harry's game. And to think she's slightly angry with Harry at that time, because he sided with Ron about the latter and her squabble over Crookshanks and evil Scabbers! How's that different to her attitude towards Quidditch when Harry was banned from playing? Well, let's just say it's rather like saying The Milky Way will fit inside Neville's Remembrall (without magic! Though I doubt even Voldemort could manage that).

Any more arguments?

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Loopy Lupin - Nov 30, 2004 7:28 am (#2803 of 2916)

That was a bad joke, then.-- Gryffindor Ghost

Hold on just a minute; now you've gone too far. (Pssst, that, too, is a joke. However, unlike JKR when it comes to planting clues for the R/Hr 'ship, I try for subtlety instead of being dead obvious.)

I don't really think there is much that needs to be added to what I've already said, but I'll address a couple of points.

I cannot fathom how anyone would think I was suggesting that Harry was not present when Hagrid asked him and Hermione to leave the Quidditch match. He was sitting right there and I mentioned Harry in my own post. I wouldn't even disagree that if Harry asked Hermione to leave a match for some reason, she would. Her doing so might even be legitmately be taken as a H/Hr clue. But, that's not what happened. Hagrid asked them both to leave because he had to show them something important and they left. How this translates into Hermione loving Harry is beyond me. It's not even a "stretch" to say that; it simply isn't there.

As for the movies, the link provided is a great exercise in reading something into nothing. Most all of the physical contact, even the hand-holding, is in the context of a werewolf attack. That may qualify as a romantic date for Hagrid, but not Harry. (Another joke there.) Of course, Harry comforts Hermione after Buckbeak seems to have been killed, but she was busy hugging, guess who?, Ron.

And, by the way, the whole purpose of this thread is present arguments for and against particular 'ships. There is no need to be snide or type things such as "rolls eyes" when you are arguing your point.

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The One - Nov 30, 2004 8:52 am (#2804 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
The Artful Dodger 11/29/04 3:36am

I'm a R/Hr shipper, and my reaction is: Does Harry care if Hermione is watching his Quidditch matches?

P.S. Why does Hermione kiss Ron on the cheek before his first match if she doesn't care about Quidditch when Ron is playing?

Hard to know for sure, but jugding by the way he asks her in PoA, during the cat/rat fight, he does.

P.S. Why does Hermione kiss Ron on the cheek before his first match if she doesn't care about Quidditch when Ron is playing?

She does care for him being nervous. She is a caring friend, the main point of this examples is that she shows a far more intense commitment, far more enthusiasm, a far more intense worry, whenever the subject is Harry then when Ron is the guy in question. Hermione has never ever fallen asleep when something important have happened to Harry.

P.P.S. If Hermione's happiness does not depend on Ron's goalkeeping abilities, does it depend on Harry's seeking abilities, then?

Depend on is a strong word, the answer is probably not, but jugding by her behaviour, Harry's seeking apperantly is mor important to her than Ron's goal keeping. Her enthusiasm for the game does seem to have declined after Harry was removed from the game.

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The One - Nov 30, 2004 9:09 am (#2805 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
As for the hints in the movies, it is true that movies are not canon. But, I believe JKR's statements are. She observed(paraphrasing) that there were things in POA that foreshadowed coming events and that people would, later, contend that the foreshadowing was purposeful. Thus, I think it is entirely legitimate, even in this thread, to theorize that JKR was referring to the numerous instances of affection/tension between R/Hr in the POA movie.

In the PoA Movie we also see Harry and Hermione share jokes on Ron's expance on two different occasions. Hermione understanding that Harry was the one taunting Malfoy and his cronies while Ron was scared, and after the time turner event. These may forshadow the report shared between Harry and Hermione that is visible from CoS on, but very evident in the later books.

In the movie we also see that Hermione is the one important partner for Harry, Ron in the PoA movie is mostly comic relief. This may forshadow the increased importance of Hermione compared to Ron that we see in GoF and even more in OotP.

We also see the intensity of Hermiones interaction with the rwo boys, she tends to Ron's wounds, but she declares her willingnes to die for Harry. (Yes, I know that she has stolen Ron's line from the books there, but why assume that the tension was approved by JKR, while this change was not?)

Very much of the "errors" we see in trio dynamics in the PoA movies can be interpreted as an exaggerated versions of what happens later in the books.

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The One - Nov 30, 2004 9:22 am (#2806 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
Weeny Owl 11/29/04 10:32pm

It makes perfect sense. Harry has been attacked by dementors, tried before the entire Wizengamot, had encounters with Umbridge, and so on and so on. She's encountered his anger, and as a friend, she knows he is emotionally fragile at this point.

Well the point about Hermiones reactions towards Harry is not that she could not behave like this towards a friend, but that it sets a standard for how she behaves when someone is really important to her. Not all the incidents has to do with mortal perill, her reactions to Harry holding the Prefect bagde, her reactions to Harry after the second task does not seem to be based on worry. Yet she NEVER shows that kind of enthushiasm for anything regarding Ron.

I believe that the Harry/Hermione ship is the main romance of the series, but I will be able to accept it if Hermione just turns out to be an extremly good friend. But if it turns out that Hermione has been secretly falling in love with Ron for all these books, and still have been so extremly focused on Harry, that will make no sense to me whatsoever.

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kabloink! - Nov 30, 2004 9:35 am (#2807 of 2916)

Optician's Assistant
I will not deny that in several instance it would seem that Hermione and Harry have a closer relationship than Hermione and Ron. THey are far more comfortable around each other, joke at Ron's expense. (Who knows though, R/Hr may laugh at Harry's expense, too-we just don't see it) BUt think. Remember back (this may not be too far back for some, but help me out here) when you had crushes in school. Who did you feel you had the closer, more comfortable relationship with, guys (or girls) you had a crush on, or were simply friends with. Hermione doesn't gush with her feelings for ROn because she doens't know how he would react or even how she might react, its common teenage angst. Granted, I'm not giving specific examples, or psychological fact here, but just the basic attitude between Hermione an the two boys combined with all of my experience with crushes back when I was 11-15 years old. And I promise, it wasn't all THAT long ago.

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The One - Nov 30, 2004 10:07 am (#2808 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
I do not buy this. Not because your experience are not valid, but because it is not the hole story. Giving away that you have a crush by being suspiciously obsessed by the girl in question is also part of the picture. Wanting to impress the girl in question is part of the picture. Hermione falling asleep when celebrating Ron entering the team does not fit, IMHO.

And the kids have known each other for very well for many years. It is not like crushing your sister friends that you know, but not very well. Some common ground should be visible by now. Some respect for abilities, care etc should show after having been best friends for 5 years.

You should also remeber that crushes is not the only reason people bicker. It is the cutest one, but not the only one.

When I first read the books my initial interpretation was that Ron was not really comfortable with Hermione being so clever, and had to attack her for nerdiness to keep up his self esteem. Hermione answers of course, being attacked and teased by a friend just like she always have been by kids that do not like her. In the later books we often see Hermione being irked by Ron being plain stupid. Is that a good thing for a romance?

Harry and Hermione on the other hand, never insults each other, always shows respect for each other, and admires each other.

Some people claimes that Hermione likes to argue with Ron. I admitt that there are clues pointing in that direction, like her reaction to Harry getting angry by their bickering in OotP. Note that a little later she aproves of a rather stupid idea from Ron about Sturgis (I think) being framed, probably to avoid a new fight that might upset Harry. But I digress. My point: despite those clues I do not buy it. Simply because Hermione is a very insecure, nerdy girl with no friends at Hogwarts. She seems to come to school prepared for that role, she probably was shunned by the other kids in primary school to, for being to clever for theirs liking. And she is supposed to enjoy being teased for being an insufferable know it all by one of her best friends? Sorry, I do not buy it.

My impression, that I cannot prove by clues but it was my impression the first time I read the books, is that Harry has a very special place in Hermiones girl, because he is the one person in Hermiones world that accepts her and loves her for excactly who she is. Ron does not come anywhere close, and I see no possibility for a romantic interest in Ron by Hermione if Ron does not change.

The awkwardess may be a syptome of feelings the kids do know how to handle, but the awkwardess by itselfe is not the fundation of a relationship. Where is the fundation? AFter 5 years it should be visible.

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Weeny Owl - Nov 30, 2004 10:57 am (#2809 of 2916)

Weeny Owl... that was a very stange point you made in your last post for an R/Hr shipper:

It makes perfect sense. Harry has been attacked by dementors, tried before the entire Wizengamot, had encounters with Umbridge, and so on and so on. She's encountered his anger, and as a friend, she knows he is emotionally fragile at this point.

What you just did Weeny, was that you just agreed that Hermione cares more about Harry than about Ron because Harry has been through a lot. That isn't possible if she's madly in love with Ron as most R/Hr shippers claim is it?

No, I didn't agree that Hermione cared more about Harry than about Ron.

When a friend is going through extremely stressful times, said friend needs more support than during times of serenity. Ron and Hermione BOTH understand that Harry is being treated badly by the Wizarding World, including his dorm mates, and needs his friends more than ever.

Hermione seems to be over the moon about Harry - about Quidditch, his emotions, his problems, his dreams, and even his lovelife! Now, if she's madly, totally, head-over-heels in love with Ron, she would've given him at least about the same amount of time she's giving Harry, but she doesn't!

I don't see that Hermione is over the moon about anything. She's a considerate and compassionate person who understands what it's like to be the target of nasty people, and as a friend, she is giving her support. Ron is being supportive as well.

As for the same amount of time being given to Ron, we don't know what Hermione and Ron are doing when Harry isn't around. There are plenty of opportunities for Hermione and Ron to be together that we just don't see since we see things from Harry's perspective.

As far as how people act when they're in love, it differs as much as people differ. No two people are going to react the same way.

"Hermione was stressed over the use of the Time Turner and her incredibly heavy class load, plus she was feeling sensitive since she and Ron weren't getting along. It seems to me that it was nothing more than the pressures that she had been accumulating." - Weeny Owl

Are you reinforcing my point here? Why, thank you!

Oh, I get it now. Perhaps what you really wanna say is that Hermione's "slightly higher voice than usual" is due to her immense workload? Correct me if I got it wrong but that's how I see your comment here. Yes, that may be the case but the stronger point I am trying to make is, heavy and huge as Hermione's workload is, she still managed to watch Harry's game. And to think she's slightly angry with Harry at that time, because he sided with Ron about the latter and her squabble over Crookshanks and evil Scabbers! Now DON'T even suggest that she went to the match to be with Ron! How's that different to her attitude towards Quidditch when Harry was banned from playing? Well, let's just say it's rather like saying The Milky Way will fit inside Neville's Remembrall (without magic! Though I doubt even Voldemort could manage that).

Any more arguments?

I will say that I find many of your comments to be condscending and patronizing, and debating a subject ceases to be fun when it begins to sound personal and not about the subject itself.

I am entitled to voice my opinions without getting such derision in responses.

But if it turns out that Hermione has been secretly falling in love with Ron for all these books, and still have been so extremly focused on Harry, that will make no sense to me whatsoever.

Having once been a teenaged female, it makes perfect sense to me.

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Hermy-own - Nov 30, 2004 11:00 am (#2810 of 2916)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
"However, unlike JKR when it comes to planting clues for the R/Hr 'ship, I try for subtlety instead of being dead obvious."

Lol! Another good joke!

I'm with those who think Harry would save anyone in danger. After having read the five books I find it hard to expect anything else from him. (Okay, Draco, Voldemort et al. don't count).

"It's just pure instinct on Harry's part to save the one he loves first."

I agree. Harry loves Hermione as a friend. Had Ron, instead of Hermione, been standing behind him, then he, Harry, would have grabbed a handful of Ron's robes. Why? Because he also loves Ron as a friend. (Of course, I'm assuming that Harry knew that Hermione was behind him; it may well have been a blind grab!)

What I'm trying to say is that the DoM scene in question does not show anything romantic between Harry and Hermione -- at least that's my take on it.

Hermy.

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The One - Nov 30, 2004 11:11 am (#2811 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
Having once been a teenaged female, it makes perfect sense to me.

Well, different people, different experiences. But I still do not buy it...

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Loopy Lupin - Nov 30, 2004 11:46 am (#2812 of 2916)

But if it turns out that Hermione has been secretly falling in love with Ron for all these books, and still have been so extremly focused on Harry, that will make no sense to me whatsoever.

Secretly? Well, she hasn't professed her love for anyone in particular, but her feelings over being a "last resort" for the Yule Ball were made perfectly clear, without any sort of secrecy.

I'm not really persuaded by anyone's "focus" on Harry. He is the focus of the entire series, so it should not be shocking that many of the characters pay attention to him. I see nothing about Hermione's actions that makes her focus "extreme" in comparison to anyone else's.

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The One - Nov 30, 2004 12:07 pm (#2813 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
Well, she hasn't professed her love for anyone in particular, but her feelings over being a "last resort" for the Yule Ball were made perfectly clear.

Ron declares that he very much want a date, the only requirement is tha he does not want to go with a "Troll", yet he never consideres Hermione for one second, untill panicks really strikes, when he suddenly discovers that Hermione is a girl.

When Hermione says the she has already got a date, he completly refuses to believe that anyone but hopeless cases like Neville could possibly want to invite Hermione to the ball.

When he finaly meets Hermione's date he goes bananas, behaving like a jerk.

I see no need to assume that Hermione is crushing on Ron to understands her feelings.

Hermione is simply stating that as long as Ron does not treat Hermione as a boy should treat a girl he has no right to complain. That is a statement that make sense, whether Harmione is crushing on Ron or not.

That is my problem with the R/Hr ship as I see it: It is based on bad behaviour and cryptic remarks. After 5 years with so close friends we should see something more.

Edited to change some passages that may have come through as rude.

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Denise P. - Nov 30, 2004 12:10 pm (#2814 of 2916)

Ravenclaw Pony
This thread has taken a nasty turn in the past few days and it WILL cease immediately. You can debate the topic, tear into it all you like but you may NOT make personal comments and tell people their opinion is wrong.

This is not a battle ground, there is no right or wrong side, there is no set in stone relationship that is being speculated about. If this thread doesn't get back to being a nice place to dicuss, in a civil manner, the various 'ships, it will be closed.
If you can`t say somethin` nice don`t say nothin` at all!-- Thumper

If anyone has a question about this post, I can be reached via email at any time....denise at hp-lexicon.org

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ema fewett - Nov 30, 2004 3:16 pm (#2815 of 2916)

I'm extremely surprised that there's so much controversy in the 'ships. I think that no matter what 'ship you support, I think it is best if we all just keep our personal beliefs and life-references to our selves. Calm down people!Smile I am a Ron/Hermione fan and I think Hermione likes both Harry and Ron equally when it comes to friendship and she would, if it happens, sacrifice her life in trying to save her friends. This might sound too "drastic" if you know what I mean but as far as friendship goes, I think she likes Ron and Harry equally. I do think that Hermione is more open towards Harry than Ron simply because I think she considers Harry like a brother than a boyfriend. But I do know that she discusses some things to Ron that she doesn't talk to Harry about, especially when it comes to Voldemort. Also, I'm sure they talk plenty when it comes time for prefect duty. We just don't see it because this is Harry's life. I also have a quote that JKR says in an interview(sorry, I dont know the source but when I have more time I'll look it up) but when the interviewer asks her, "Is something going on between Ron and Hermione in the 4th book?", JKR replies that there definately is something going on but poor Ron doesnt realize it yet. This definately forshadows that they might be dating in the upcoming books.

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The One - Nov 30, 2004 3:32 pm (#2816 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
But I do know that she discusses some things to Ron that she doesn't talk to Harry about, especially when it comes to Voldemort.

What exactly do you have in mind here?

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Madame Pomfrey - Nov 30, 2004 5:19 pm (#2817 of 2916)

Good post Ema.I think that Ron may be a little clueless about his feelings towards Hermione and Imo Hermione is crushing on Ron and just waiting for him to wake up.Girls often mature faster than boys and are ready for relationships earlier than boys.I think Harry & Hermione are the best of friends and I dont see that ship sailing any further than that

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Gryffindor Ghost - Nov 30, 2004 7:06 pm (#2818 of 2916)

Oh, I get it now. Most of you still seem to misinterpret my posts. What I am trying to explain is that, Harry and Hermione are not exactly displaying overt signs of affection. I think that your comments of "they're not showing any romantic feelings" or something like that is not applicable to what I've posted BECAUSE I am not suggesting that those actions are purely romantic overtures or something.

Oh, and I'm sorry if sometimes I get carried away (that happens when people thoroughly misinterpret me, when I feel I have made my points quite clear). I promise gentler words from now on (lest our forum moderators kick me outta here).

Okay, now, I'll stick to presenting evidence to support my points.

All right, I think I promised in my last post to show the exact quote about the positions of the students concerned during the confrontation with the Death Eaters in Row 97, Hall of Prophecies, Department of Mysteries, Ministry of Magic, London.

QUOTE: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, Chapter 35-"Beyond the Veil (U.S. Hardback Edition)

He could not think what to do but to keep talking. Neville's arm was pressed against his, and he could feel him shaking. He could feel one of the other's quickened breath on the back of his head.(p. 784)

Okay, it is established: Neville is standing right next to Harry. The latter could even feel the former's shaking arm. On to another quote:

He moved his foot slowly sideways, feeling around for someone else's.

"I'm not playing games,"said Harry, half his mind on the conversation, half on his wandering foot. And then he found someone's toes and pressed down upon them. A sharp intake of breath behind him told him they were Hermione's. (p. 785)

And Hermione was behind him. And the next:

"RUN!" Harry yelled, and as the shelves swayed precariously and more glass spheres began to pour from above, he seized a handful of Hermione's robes snd dragged her forward, one arm over his head as chunks of shelf and shards of glass thundered down upon them. (p. 787)

There you have it. As I have said in my earlier posts, Neville was just beside him while Hermione was behind him, and yet he grabbed Hermione when he could've just grabbed Neville. And then ponder this:

Harry found the way ahead clear and saw Ron, Ginny, and Luna sprint past him, their arms over their heads. (p. 787)

You see? Ron was sprinting away, both arms over his head, and not a care as to whether a certain bushy, brown-haired friend of his is safe from the deluge of broken glass and splintered wood, not to mention a handful of purely evil Death Eaters. I'm not saying Ron shouldn't save himself, but don't you think he's the one who's got the tendency to abandon Hermione in the midst of trouble and save his own skin?

Good post Ema.I think that Ron may be a little clueless about his feelings towards Hermione and Imo Hermione is crushing on Ron and just waiting for him to wake up.Girls often mature faster than boys and are ready for relationships earlier than boys.I think Harry & Hermione are the best of friends and I dont see that ship sailing any further than that - Madam Pomfrey

Yes, I think that Ron doesn't realize he has got feelings for Hermione, but I honestly don't think Hermione crushes on Ron. If you're talking about the infamous Yule Brawl, well, let me counter the R/Hr points:

QUOTE: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Chapter 23-"The Yule Ball"

"Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" - Hermione

Is this it? Yeah I think it is. Okay, reading between the lines, I don't think that Hermione is suggesting here that she wanted to go with Ron, but the latter didn't ask her before Krum did. I think that what Hermione says is that, she would go with anyone who asks her first, unless of course she has a very good reason not to do so. So had Ron asked her immediately after McGonagall told them about the ball, I think Hermione would gladly say yes, as well she would be delighted to go with Harry if he asked her, or even Neville, had he asked her before Krum did. I't just a matter of taking a look at the way the author penned that row. If Hermione said something like, "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone ele does, because I want to go with you, too," then I would've switched ships faster than you can say, "traitor!"

Anyway, many thanks to The One for the reinforcement. I hope more will come.

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coolbeans3131 - Nov 30, 2004 7:49 pm (#2819 of 2916)

We could debate all day why Harry grabbed Hermione's robes and pulled her along with him. I think the important part is, why did JKR write it that way? Why was Neville with Harry and not Ron? Why did Hermione and Harry go into the forbidden forest twice without Ron? Why did JKR strengthen the H/H friendship so much? Why did she have Ron having so much in his life separate from Harry?

I know we could read shipping reasons into this, but it also could end up JKR is setting up something else entirely. I like H/H, so I choose to see the ship hints, but I know it could be another purpose.

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Czarina II - Nov 30, 2004 8:25 pm (#2820 of 2916)

To go back many posts about Quidditch...

Hermione doesn't really like Quidditch, is my impression from the books. If Harry and Ron weren't playing, she probably wouldn't attend. Hence, when only Harry is playing, she pays him a lot of attention. When only Ron is playing, she pays him a lot of attention. When something else comes up that is more interesting for her (such as Hagrid coming along willing to reveal the secret that she has been wondering about for the entire year!), she is quite willing to leave the game for it. She's not a die-hard fan, so she might be a wee bit embarassed over Ron's playing and not want to watch for fear of more disappointment.

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Sir Tornado - Nov 30, 2004 8:43 pm (#2821 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Woohoo, Welcome back Coolbeans... Long time, no see? All we need now is Tracie and we will be in full force once again

Now, as far as the Post Yule-ball row is concerned... Here's Penny Lisenmeyer's interpretation for that incident from an HP4GU essay.

The fight scene between Ron and Hermione after the Yule Ball in GoF is frequently cited as evidence that they like each other romantically. However, the H/H shippers are quick to point out that the reader has no idea what Ron said to Hermione before Harry stepped into the Gryffindor common room. Her response ("Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't you? .... Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!") takes on a different meaning, depending on what Ron said to her just before Harry stepped in. If Ron repeated what he'd said earlier during the Ball ("By going with Krum, you're betraying Hogwarts and Harry in particular"), then her response takes on a different meaning than if Ron said something more personal ("Why did you go with Krum when I asked you?"). It can be argued that the dialogue that Harry overhears doesn't make much sense if one assumes that Ron made a personal remark to her (rather than just continuing to fling the "consorting with the enemy" argument at her).

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Gryffindor Ghost - Dec 1, 2004 5:07 am (#2822 of 2916)

I don't think Hermione pays a lot of attention to Ron when he's playing Quidditch. She pays him attention, of course (he's also her best friend after all), but her attention is more focused on Harry, Quidditch or no Quidditch.

Yes, welcome back, coolbeans! I just hope more of us will come back here, to help defend our arguments for the H/Hr ship. Yes, that's the question: Why J.K. Rowling had to write that sequence in that way. She won't do it for no particular reason, will she?

What does HP4GU stand for, anyway, Sir Tornado? I kinda forgot....

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The One - Dec 1, 2004 7:41 am (#2823 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
I see the love between a man and a woman as a very important part of ehat will defeat Voldie. We have already seen love between friends, love between parent and child, love between mentor etc. as being very imoportant. This last type of love, the romantic love, is the kind needed to complete the picture. I do not know how the ending of book 7 will be, but this is what I imagine what will be the core og HBP. In book 7 all good forces will somehow unite to make Voldies defeat final.

And by romantic love here I mean attraction of course, but also deep care, understanding, bounding etc. Something much deeper than a typical teenager crush. Something that can only be achieved by sharing years of experiences and care.

This kind of love I only see as realistical achievable at such a young age between Harry and Hermione. They share a bound, a closeness that I do not percieve anywhere else in the books. Hermione knows it already, but she suffers, because Harry has not quit understood yet what Hermione means to him. But he is getting there.

That is my taking.

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Sir Tornado - Dec 1, 2004 7:42 am (#2824 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
HP4GU stands for "Harry Potter for Grown Ups"

Edit: I agree with Jarand.

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wwtMask - Dec 1, 2004 7:47 am (#2825 of 2916)

I think it's "Harry Potter 4 Grown Ups".

Anyway, after reading through everyone's posts, I think that the evidence can easily point either way. R/Hr seems superficially more certain but, knowing JKR as we do, obvious clues aren't always pointing in the right direction. I think we can only speculate at this point because there's a lot of time we're missing to properly judge which side is right (the books do, after all, skip months of daily interaction that would be useful for 'shippers). I sincerely hope that H/Hr happens but I have a feeling that R/Hr is probably going to win out.

By the way, what happened to the other 'shippers? I haven't heard a peep from H/P, H/L, H/Tonks, etc. 'shippers in ages! Let's expand the debate! :-)

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 1, 2004 8:02 am (#2826 of 2916)

Well, Harry/Pansy is most often discussed on the "Harry's 'Ship Uniting the Houses" thread which is not, technically, dedicated to just that one 'ship, but it has worked out that way. That thread, in any event, has slowed considerable too. I guess that means that we H/P 'shippers won! Yay! Good for us.

Luna does have possibilities especially with Harry feeling comfortable talking to her about Sirius, but there's not much development there.

Harry and Tonks frankly suffers too much from the age thing. No, I don't think we know her exact age. But I think that we have surmised she is, at least, 20 in OoP. Given that Harry is 15 then, I just can't see JKR taking the books in that direction.

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wwtMask - Dec 1, 2004 8:19 am (#2827 of 2916)

Edited by Denise P. Dec 1, 2004 8:07 am
Well, I've seen forum threads, fics, and doujins that cover a range of 'ships that would make H/Tonks seem sensible. I'll leave that to the imagination because some of them probably aren't appropriate for this forum!

Edit I deleted part of this post. It contained speculation that is not appropriate for this Forum. wwtMask, you are correct in asking if we discuss these pairings on the forum. Short answer is no, we do not. If anyone has a question, I can always be reached at denise (@) hp-lexicon.org

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Denise P. - Dec 1, 2004 9:09 am (#2828 of 2916)

Ravenclaw Pony
I don't really sail on any specific 'ship (wait, yes, I do..but anyway) but I can see the possibility of the Tonks/Harry 'ship having some merit.

As Loopy pointed out, right now, the age difference between the two is too great to really overcome to have a healthy relationship form. Now, assuming Harry survives the series and is unattached, by the time he is in his early 20's, they could develop a relationship.

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KWeldon - Dec 1, 2004 9:44 am (#2829 of 2916)

I guess that means that we H/P 'shippers won!

Loopy,

On that note, upon viewing PoA several times this past week, I realized that the addition of Pansy to that movie adds absolutely nothing. She asks Draco about his injury, but, heck, if they're going to be distilling the information, that question could have been asked by anybody, or he could have just said it to someone without being prompted.

My point is, one could argue that she is introduced to the book-familiar audience (i.e., everyone who reads the books knows it's Pansy) because she will become important later. And, I don't even mean in movies 4 and 5, because her role could easily be reduced/excluded there, too. Could it be that JKR told them to include her for this reason, and, perhaps, instructed them to pick an attractive actress (IMHO) given that she will be Harry's ship later? Possibly.

I know this has been mentioned before somewhere, maybe even by me, but I thought I'd just reiterate.

KWeldon

P.S. Where the heck has Marcus been?

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 1, 2004 10:54 am (#2830 of 2916)

On that note, upon viewing PoA several times this past week, I realized that the addition of Pansy to that movie adds absolutely nothing.

Well, except that it adds a character named Pansy to the movies. However, I don't think Pansy is cast in GoF or has a role at all. It still makes one wonder why they bothered to introduce her at all at that point?

I have wondered where Marcus is myself. Not to speak for him but his last noticeable absence was explained by, among other things, the total lack of anything new to discuss. I must confess that other than sparring over the 'ships, I'm not really filling up with new ideas at the moment myself. We need this book, and soon!

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KWeldon - Dec 1, 2004 11:48 am (#2831 of 2916)

the total lack of anything new to discuss

Hear, hear.

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ema fewett - Dec 1, 2004 3:25 pm (#2832 of 2916)

Alright, moving a bit away from the H/Hr and R/Hr ships, I was just rereading the 5th book(this is really weird but no matter how many times I read it, I always find something new that might forshadow what will happen in the later books or just cool stuff that I hadn't noticed before)and I noticed, as many of you have, that Ginny plays a much bigger part in this one. We find out that she's much more "rebelious" if you know what I mean, and I noticed she's a lot like Harry. What I mean is that she doesn't mind breaking rules and I have a feeling she's definately excellent in DADA since it's mentioned atleast twice in the books about her superb bat-bogy curse. She's also very truthful and honest to Harry and makes sure she tells him her opinion. Also, in this book, I noticed that for the first time, Harry told Ginny first one of his deepest desires that was bothiring him for a long time(which was to talk to Sirius and Lupin) rather than telling Ron and Hermione. And it says so in the book that he felt much better that he told Ginny this. My point is, I really think that they might go out. What are your opinions?

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total hatred - Dec 1, 2004 3:39 pm (#2833 of 2916)

What was he told her, I don't have my book right now. Depending on what he told, I will make my opinion from it.

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The One - Dec 1, 2004 4:12 pm (#2834 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
She noted that he was depressed, and she advised him to talk to Cho. He told her that it was not Cho he wanted to talk to, she asked who then, and he said Sirius. She told him that if he really wanted to talk to Sirius it would be possible, and that life with the twins had teached her that anything is possible as long as you have got the nerve. Then they was chased out of the library and conversation ends.

She told the twins about the conversation, and the twins later comes to Harry and tells him they have a plan for how to help him. Ginny no longer plays any role in this sub-plot.

That is about it.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Dec 1, 2004 7:08 pm (#2835 of 2916)

Yeah, The One said it all. And by the way, has anyone read the "Draught of Peace" theory? I think the conversation between Harry and Ginny in the library is discussed in that theory, and why Harry felt different after talking to her. Something like, "perhaps it was the effect of the choclate, Lupin always advised eating some after encounters with dementors." That's not the exact quote, anyway, but it was something to that effect, and then we know that Umbridge tried to feed Harry Veritaserum, but Snape gave her a fake truth potion. I forgot the exact contents of the theory, but here's the link anyway: The Draught of Peace Theory

Let me know what you think.

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Paulus Maximus - Dec 1, 2004 7:58 pm (#2836 of 2916)

"She's also very truthful and honest"

Truthful and honest people tend to be particularly bad at lying with a straight face...

...which, by the way, Ginny is not at all...

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Sir Tornado - Dec 2, 2004 12:24 am (#2837 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Gryffindor Ghost... I disagree with the essay there. There was no draught of peace there. The answer lies in pure muggle chemistry. I believe there is some chemical compound in Chocolate which simulates calmness and lightheadedness. I think I have read it somewhere... any Chemistry geniuses on this Forum?

As far as H/G ship is concerned... I we have absolutely no canon evidence for that. People ship Harry and Ginny for mainly 2 reasons:

1) They look cute together

2) There is a theory floating around, OBHWF (One big Happy Weasley Family) according to which R/Hr and H/G ships take place meaning we have everyone in the Weasley family. One place where this theory falls is that there is no evidence supporting H/G part of this theory
It's really no coincidence that Most of the R/Hr shippers are also H/G shippers!

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Gryffindor Ghost - Dec 2, 2004 2:47 am (#2838 of 2916)

I thought it was quite far-fetched too, Sir Tornado, but I thought some would want to read it, because it's still possible, isn't it? By the way, I think the only reason why Ginny is quite comfortable talking to Harry or even standing up to his temper is that, as Hermione puts it, Ginny had given up on Harry ages ago. Even Harry said that he also noticed that Ginny now talks in front of him, something that she seldom did before.

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wwtMask - Dec 2, 2004 7:13 am (#2839 of 2916)

Regarding Harry and Ginny in the library, am I the only one who wonders if Ginny seemed a bit more eager to help Harry after learning that he's not depressed over Cho? Maybe that's wishful thinking, I haven't got the book on hand right now. I must confess now to being a bit of a H/G fan, mainly because Ginny reminds me of Fred and George but also because she seems to be one of the few people who can deal with Harry's mood swings.

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dizzy lizzy - Dec 2, 2004 3:07 pm (#2840 of 2916)

There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Ginny strikes me as not just dealing with Harry's mood swings, but ignoring them altogether in some places.

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Susan Potter - Dec 2, 2004 6:33 pm (#2841 of 2916)

hey Tornado, I can think of another reason.... Ginny is really the *only available girl* somewhat close to Harry, that people can ship him with... Hermione, is his platonic friend, and Luna is a total loon... so Ginny is basically it, and if you pair together Hermione with Ron... that’s leaves poor Harry as a third wheel... so people ship him with Ginny, the only "somewhat" fleshed out girl available, that’s not a platonic friend, or one that needs to be institutionalized.

I don't mind Harry with Ginny... it just bothers when some H/g shippers go around saying how incredibly obvious it is, and that its *so* going to happen... there isn't really any great proof for this ship, Just like with all ships, it all a bunch of wishful thinking.

I ship Harry with Susan Bones... I have a feeling that she is the ace up JKR's sleeve... that will give the total "JKR surprise" that we all know she's capable of.

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The One - Dec 2, 2004 8:08 pm (#2842 of 2916)

Open minded sceptic
I ship Harry with Susan Bones... I have a feeling that she is the ace up JKR's sleeve... that will give the total "JKR surprise" that we all know she's capable of.

While I firmly believe in the H/Hr ship, Susan Bones are high up on my reserve list for Harry. (Or would have been, had I felt the need for reserves.) I have a very strong feeling that the 3(?) mentiones of Susan Bones in OotP, where she reenters the story after having been AWOL since the sorting in PS is the beginning of something important.

Luna is also on my reserve list (but she belongs to Ron, the poor boy will not know what hit him...), while Ginny is not. Ginny is simply not an interesting character to me.

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scoop2172000 - Dec 3, 2004 10:20 am (#2843 of 2916)

Why did JKR add a girl, Ginny, to this generation of the Weasley family? Why did Jo indicate Ginny was unusual in that she was the first girl born into the clan in quite some time.

Seems to me that she included a girl in the present Weasley family so that a guy could ultimately marry into the Weasley clan. Who better than Harry, who's virtually a member of the family already. A Harry/Ginny marriage would cement the bond.

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Sir Tornado - Dec 3, 2004 11:59 am (#2844 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
A bit far-fetched, don't you think?

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Steve Newton - Dec 3, 2004 12:33 pm (#2845 of 2916)

Librarian
Why did JKR add a girl, Ginny, to this generation of the Weasley family?

A good question, but, I think she is more than a plot device. I'm sure that there is a very good reason. I just have no clue what it is.

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Susan Potter - Dec 3, 2004 1:17 pm (#2846 of 2916)

Why did JKR add a girl, Ginny, to this generation of the Weasley family?

I don't know... why did Joe put Susan in the fifth book when for so long she wasn't anything but a name at a sorting ceremony? Why has Joe kept Harry and Ginny's relationship as "platonic" as Harry and Hermione's? Why did JKR "specifically" Have Susan tell Harry that she knows how he feels?

Harry is part of the Weasley family!!! He doesn’t have to be married into it.

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Sir Tornado - Dec 3, 2004 2:58 pm (#2847 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Exactly Susan Potter.

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Steve Newton - Dec 3, 2004 3:05 pm (#2848 of 2916)

Librarian
Are you saying that Susan is going to marry Harry?

(This is a joke. I don't know how to do emoticons or smilies.)

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Sir Tornado - Dec 3, 2004 8:31 pm (#2849 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Steve, check out the HTML help forum for the Smiles.

Yes, I believe Susan Potter is saying Susan Bones is going to ship with Harry, though I don't agree with. Here is a post where Susan has expressed her views: Post 1196

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Susan Potter - Dec 4, 2004 1:15 pm (#2850 of 2916)

Yes steve... I ship Harry with Susan... shocked?-g- there might not be a lot of us Harry/Susan shippers, and most of us are pretty silent about it, but I'm sure after the sixth book comes around and Susan has made her big appearance (you know she is)... there will be a lot more Harry/Susan shippers around-g- After all Luna was in ONE book and she wasn't in every single paragraph either... and she's one of the top three girls to ship with Harry.

I may not agree with H/Hr's on a lot of things coughRon/Hermionecough but I do love it when we can stand together against H/G-g-

Susan... flashing her "Susan for Potter" badge

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) (Post 2851 to 2900)

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wwtMask - Dec 6, 2004 11:31 am (#2851 of 2916)
I'm slightly against the S/H ship because there's not much known about her and, honestly, because Stephen Frye gave her a somewhat funny speech pattern (a heavy lisp) that always comes to mind when I think of her. I'm sure she's an attractive and nice young lady but, from what I can tell, she's not really that high on Harry's list (which had only one name on it for 2 books).

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Hermy-own - Dec 6, 2004 4:59 pm (#2852 of 2916)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
"from what I can tell, she's not really that high on Harry's list" -- wwtMask

True, Mask, true. But, as with Pansy, there is evidence - ranging from tenous to credible - suggesting that this may change and Harry may start to take more notice of Miss Bones.

Of course, Pansy's case has been highlighted more extensively (*waves at Marcus, Loopy, KWeldon and the other H/P supporters*), but I wouldn't exclude Susan as a possibility - not just yet.

Hermy.

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Czarina II - Dec 6, 2004 8:21 pm (#2853 of 2916)

My likely candidates for Harry to ship with: Ginny, Luna, Susan, Pansy, Parvati.

Likely of a life-partnership (hey -- they ARE only 15/16 at this point): Ginny or Luna. Possibly Susan.

Likely of a date or two in HbP: Parvati, or another girl we haven't really been introduced to yet. Again, possibly Susan. She is just such a minor character at the moment that it is hard to tell. Also, perhaps Pansy.

I don't know about Harry and Pansy, to be frank. It is possible, but it just doesn't seem right. Besides, I think Pansy is quite involved with Draco Malfoy at the moment. She is perfect for Draco. Honestly. They seem to make a good couple. I see Pansy as the type to write "Mrs Pansy Malfoy" in the margins of her notes, not "Mrs Pansy Potter". Could you imagine? "Hello, I'm Pansy Potter. I also like to plant daisies and tulips, and occasionally I put pansies in flowerbeds, not pots." (Sorry, it's exam season. My brain is a bit fried.)

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TomProffitt - Dec 9, 2004 6:53 am (#2854 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
The obvious part in the H/G ship is not the ship. It is Ginny's desire for the ship.

There are a lot of subtle clues about Ginny's feelings. Her reactions to Yule Ball difficulties are the first sign that she may be over the crush, but she hasn't given up on Harry. There are others.

On the other hand, there is really nothing in the books showing Harry wanting to ship with anyone other than Cho Chang. By the end of OP he's finished with that, and there is nothing showing Harry's desire for a particular ship.

It's easy to speculate on the ships other characters want, because we are not privy to their thoughts. We are, however, privy to Harry's thoughts and we know the only ship he has ever wanted.

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Chemyst - Dec 9, 2004 7:32 am (#2855 of 2916)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
...there is nothing showing Harry's desire for a particular ship. - Tom P

Yes, and considering the place JKR was in life at the time she conceived this series, (recent divorce, few prospects,) it would not be too surprising if she created a main character who was just happy with himself, living on his own terms, without a need for any significant other. Harry has a lot of personal healing that needs to take place before he'd be worth much in any emotional relationship. Anyone who 'ships with him now would have to baby-sit his insecurities and deal with his anger– that's not romantic.

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Susan Potter - Dec 9, 2004 1:46 pm (#2856 of 2916)

TomProffitt said...The obvious part in the H/G ship is not the ship. It is Ginny's desire for the ship.

I don't know... having an eleven year old "school girl" crush on somebody isn't a good start, and the fact that she is dating other people tells me that her "desire" isn't all that strong anymore…

TomProffitt said...On the other hand, there is really nothing in the books showing Harry wanting to ship with anyone other than Cho Chang. By the end of OP he's finished with that, and there is nothing showing Harry's desire for a particular ship.

I agree... which is why I like the idea of Susan... a relative new girl coming out... and striking up that desire in Harry... both Ginny and Hermione have been around Harry for how long? And Harry hasn't had any thought about dating either of them or "butterflies in the stomach" even when one has had a crush on him or when he reads a whole article about him dating the other.... he has had no thought about it. To me it would be a little passé if Harry "all of sudden" say's "wow that Ginny’s something" when for five books he's had no thoughts or feelings about her one way or the other... To me Ginny and Hermione have had their chance... their respective relationships with Harry have become what they are... a new girl won't have that.

I like the idea of Lone!hero Harry, and think that it might really actually be what's going to happen, but as long as we have no clue, I like to picture him riding off in the sunset with a special girl by his side... whoever that girl might be... Isn't that the fun of shipping?

Susan

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TomProffitt - Dec 9, 2004 2:13 pm (#2857 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
My recollections of being a teen-age boy center around finding a lot of different girls attractive, but being totally clueless about how to get one for myself. Then along would come a girl who had set her sights on me (why? I have no idea) and bam! I've got a girl friend.

I see Harry as being like that, a determined girl is going to come along and make him notice and take action. Who that girl is I don't know, but Ginny is the only one who has seemed to me to show an interest since the Yule Ball (excepting Cho).

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Susan Potter - Dec 9, 2004 5:59 pm (#2858 of 2916)

TomProffitt: I see Harry as being like that, a determined girl is going to come along and make him notice and take action. Who that girl is I don't know, but Ginny is the only one who has seemed to me to show an interest since the Yule Ball (excepting Cho).

That’s my issue with Harry/Ginny... she's shown interest(that’s so ambiguous half the readers see it as something else) but he's *still* has not noticed her... after five books it would seem weak and contrived to have him suddenly change his mind.

Why is that R/hr's don't ship H/Hr, based on the fact that Harry and Hermione are platonic friends, they have been, are, and will continue to be platonic friends... his view of Hermione won't change... it would be horrible if He all of sudden started to think of her “in that way,” but then, when it comes to Ginny... who is in the same boat... its perfectly believable that his view will change, that it will be a perfect love story if he started to get butterflies in the stomach when he sees her (or in the case of a really bad fanfic I just read, receives a letter from her) forgetting that for five books...*absolutely* nothing.

... I think that the girl that will eventually turn his head, will have to be someone that he (and the readers) haven’t already "labeled."...

Susan... who's not sure if "readers" is a word.

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Paulus Maximus - Dec 9, 2004 10:19 pm (#2859 of 2916)

The thing is, Harry and Hermione have not always been platonic friends. Not too long ago, they didn't talk...

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kabloink! - Dec 9, 2004 10:57 pm (#2860 of 2916)

Optician's Assistant
I really would like to see Harry and Ginny together, but I'm not sure how likely it is. I do have one question, though-why would Jo make such a big deal over Ginny's crush on Harry if it wasn't going to play out somehow later in the series? GRanted, she did touch on it a bit in OotP, where we got to see a great deal more of GInny than we really had in any of the other books-even CoS. I can understand that it might have been a red herring, but you would think that she might have dealt with it a bit more by now if it was.

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Star Crossed - Dec 10, 2004 4:50 am (#2861 of 2916)

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I think Ginny represented all his groupies. It was another view that he was famous. Unknown people don't have people fawning after them, not when they know absolutely nothing on the person. No, Ginny was/is just a star-struck little girl in the face of someone famous.

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coolbeans3131 - Dec 10, 2004 5:17 am (#2862 of 2916)

Kabloink said "I do have one question, though-why would Jo make such a big deal over Ginny's crush on Harry if it wasn't going to play out somehow later in the series?"

I think Ginny's crush on Harry was used to mask her strange behavior to the audience. Ginny was important in CoS, so we needed to see her around, and to be mentioned. We hardly saw her in PoA or GoF though. She stepped up in OotP, but I think that's so she can get with Neville.

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TomProffitt - Dec 10, 2004 6:04 am (#2863 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
Ginny's character started making a change in GoF. She changed from being the little girl with a crush. She's maturing quickly, perhaps more quickly than Harry. Yes, she's been around five books, but she's no more the same girl than Harry's the same guy.

It's not so much a matter of Harry noticing Ginny in a different way and getting butterflies. Teenage guys don't exactly work that way. If Ginny forms a good tactical plan and executes it Harry will be wondering how he missed something so wonderful for so long when it was right in front of him. In my opinion it's less about Harry and more about Ginny.

Frankly, this method is pretty much how I would see almost any relationship starting for Harry, no matter which girl.

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wwtMask - Dec 10, 2004 6:14 am (#2864 of 2916)

Yes, Harry isn't exactly the most proactive person, is he? I think Ginny has a better than average shot. Let's remember that Harry was into Cho since the Ravenclaw game in PoA. That's a bit more than 2 years of tunnel vision that, at the end, was cut off by the battle at the MoM and the death of Sirius. It's really hard to count anyone out because, right now, Harry is more focused on his loss than any potential girlfriend he might have. That said, Ginny has a better chance than any other girl, simply by her closeness to Harry. And, if I'm not mistaken, I think Harry is finally catching Ron's hints that he's ok with (even encourages) Harry having a relationship with his sister.

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Paulus Maximus - Dec 10, 2004 9:01 am (#2865 of 2916)

Hints? Ron said he had thought Ginny fancied Harry.

You can't get less subtle than that...

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Susan Potter - Dec 10, 2004 9:12 am (#2866 of 2916)

kabloink! said: Why would Jo make such a big deal over Ginny's crush on Harry if it wasn't going to play out somehow later in the series?

I don't know... why Have Harry Crushing on Cho, if nothing is going to come of it? Is JKR telling us something about first crushes? Then there is the argument that JKR hasn't made a *big deal* out of ginny's crush.

TomProffitt said: Ginny's character started making a change in GoF. She changed from being the little girl with a crush. She's maturing quickly, perhaps more quickly than Harry. Yes, she's been around five books, but she's no more the same girl than Harry's the same guy.

Yet with all these changes... Harry's thinking of her is exactly the same, as when he first saw her... why would it "all of a sudden" change?

TomProffitt: It's not so much a matter of Harry noticing Ginny in a different way and getting butterflies. Teenage guys don't exactly work that way. If Ginny forms a good tactical plan and executes it Harry will be wondering how he missed something so wonderful for so long when it was right in front of him. In my opinion it's less about Harry and more about Ginny.

You might be less concerned with Harry and more concerned with Ginny, but Harry will have to like Ginny back... so far his feelings for her have no way indicated that he likes her, or will, for that matter... no matter what "tactical plan" Ginny comes up with, it would seem like a bad fanfic if He just ups and "changes his mind."

wwtMask said: Yes, Harry isn't exactly the most proactive person, is he?

Which will make it harder for him to change his view of her

wwtMask said: I think Ginny has a better than average shot.

Right now I think every girl has a shot... and no girl has a "better then average shot" we're all at square one, none of us know what's going to happen...look at all the ships there are, look at the debating... unless, of course, you have some inside information from JKR, herself, that will end this whole debate right here, right now.

wwtMask said: Let's remember that Harry was into Cho since the Ravenclaw game in PoA.

He might have had a crush on cho but he was still functional... he didn't think about her 24/7 ... he was able to lead a normal life and interact with other girls... yet he still had no thought about Ginny... not even a "she's really pretty." Boy's, especially the teenage kind, are capable of thinking about two girls at once.

wwtMask said: ...at the end, was cut off by the battle at the MoM and the death of Sirius. It's really hard to count anyone out because, right now, Harry is more focused on his loss than any potential girlfriend he might have.

This is interesting which leads to mind of a minor character... it wasn't the people "close" to Harry that helped him deal with this... it was a relatively new girl, Luna, that did.

wwtMask said: That said, Ginny has a better chance than any other girl, simply by her closeness to Harry.

So you do have some inside information about Harry and Ginny from JKR, if you are so sure she has a "better chance then any other girl"... would you care to share it with us?

Her "closeness to Harry?" are we still talking about the same girl? I think we should keep Harry’s and Ginny’s friendship in perspective here.. Yes they are friends, but I would hardly call them "close"

wwtMask said: And, if I'm not mistaken, I think Harry is finally catching Ron's hints that he's ok with (even encourages) Harry having a relationship with his sister

Did I miss something? There has only been ONE! Scene, in all five books, were it could be said that Ron has showed his preference in H/G... and all he did was "look towards Harry" hardly "encouraging him" plus there is the argument that both Harry and especially Ginny don’t seem like the type of people that will “jump” if Ron says to... in fact I think they will be less inclined to date, if Ron pushes them at it.

Susan... who feels saddened by the lose of a perfectly good subplot that would have been, if Ron hated the fact that Ginny and Harry dated… how entertaining that would have been!

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Eponine - Dec 10, 2004 9:44 am (#2867 of 2916)

Well, JKR has said on her site that Luna and Neville will not be getting together. I wasn't sold on the idea. I thought it would be cute, but oh well.

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wwtMask - Dec 10, 2004 12:13 pm (#2868 of 2916)

I meant close by virtue of being a Weasly and knowing Harry personally longer than any of the other girls besides Hermione. No, Ginny isn't as close as Ron or Hermione, but she's certainly closer to Harry than any other Weasley (thanks to the ordeal in CoS) and any other schoolmates.

Come now, Ron hinted at H/G quite clearly before the scene you mention. Besides making a jesting mention of her crush on Harry in CoS, there is also the bit in GoF where Ron says that Harry can take Ginny to the Yule ball. Being an older brother myself, I can't see Ron being ok with anyone going on a date with his sister if he didn't approve of the potential relationship (see Ron's reaction to Anthony and Dean). From what I can tell, Ron wouldn't mind having Harry as a brother-in-law in the future. I really don't see him as trying to force the relationship either. It's more like he's letting it be known to Harry that he approves.

In response to the other thoughts, no, Harry didn't think about Cho 24/7, but neither did he think of any other girl. It's perfectly easy to get tunnel vision about someone, it happened to me a few times as a teenager. The phrase "can't see the forest for the trees" comes to mind. I only give Ginny a better than average shot at Harry because she seems to have fewer obstacles to overcome.

Now then, Luna and Neville is a no go. If I'm not mistaken, that's flummoxed the theory that the MoM battle participants were destined to be together, at least in the H/G, R/Hr, N/L combination. I wasn't really a fan of the N/L 'ship, to be honest, because, besides their seemingly incompatible personalities, she never seemed as interested in him as she was in Harry and Ron. That makes me think of how interesting it'd be if Ron and Harry competed for her attention...

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Sir Tornado - Dec 10, 2004 12:15 pm (#2869 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
I wish she would end the R/Hr rumours!

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Amilia Smith - Dec 10, 2004 12:43 pm (#2870 of 2916)

I think she is afraid of the hate mail she would get if she crushed either H/Hr or R/Hr. Smile

" The Luna/Neville shippers are much less vehement and scary than the Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione tribes, so I hope I won’t receive too much hate mail for quashing this rumour. "

Mills.

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Paulus Maximus - Dec 10, 2004 1:50 pm (#2871 of 2916)

"I wish she would end the R/Hr rumours!"

Or confirm them.

Wait a minute... if she confirms them, they stop being rumors... so she would still end them...

But I doubt she will until the very end...

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Czarina II - Dec 10, 2004 9:07 pm (#2872 of 2916)

Well, no Neville and Luna. Great for fanfiction, though.

So this means Luna is still in the running for Harry! Hmm...

I hope Neville ends up with somebody eventually. Not that everyone has to have a serious relationship at the end of Hogwarts, but it would be nice. Ginny, perhaps, or maybe Susan Bones. Perhaps one of the many unnamed girls.

Unfortunately, this revelation only adds more fuel to the fire for the Hermione debate.

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total hatred - Dec 11, 2004 12:34 am (#2873 of 2916)

Using some of the argument of someone's post.I am too lazy to scroll back. Ron wanted to have H/G ship because he is dying to have the R/Hr ship. He implying that the two should get together so that he can get a clear shot on Mione. He felt threatened that Harry don't have a girlfriend and was worried that Harry might turn his attention to Mione. Now Krum is a distant possibility, the only rival shippable male in Mione's radar will be Harry. By eliminating Harry, he has increased chances on Mione and he is confident that Mione will not choose someone not so close to herself.

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Sir Tornado - Dec 11, 2004 2:08 am (#2874 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
So this means Luna is still in the running for Harry! Hmm... -- Czarina II

And of course, that Neville is in the running for Ginny!

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dizzy lizzy - Dec 11, 2004 2:36 am (#2875 of 2916)

There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Who is Mione??

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Chemyst - Dec 11, 2004 6:19 am (#2876 of 2916)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Who is Mione?? Oh dear, Total Hatred has this "thing" about calling Hermione "Mione". He has been told it is confusing, but we just forgive him, ignore it, and move on.

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Ms Hagrid - Dec 11, 2004 10:29 am (#2877 of 2916)

I just saw this morning that JKR has ruled out a Neville/Luna ship on her website. I never thought that was very likely - I think it just gained popularity because people were trying to match the six friends up and Neville/Luna was what you had left over after you matched up Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny.

I still think a Harry/Luna ship is a strong possibility!

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Czarina II - Dec 11, 2004 12:43 pm (#2878 of 2916)

"And of course that Neville is in the running for Ginny!" -- Sir Tornado

Precisely. Now, Tornado, if you put Harry and Luna together and Neville with Ginny, who do you have left of the six? ;-)

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coolbeans3131 - Dec 11, 2004 2:38 pm (#2879 of 2916)

If Neville is with Ginny, it doesn't mean Harry has to be with Luna. I think Ron will be with Luna. Now who's left?

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Paulus Maximus - Dec 11, 2004 3:05 pm (#2880 of 2916)

De gustibus non est disputandum.

It must not be disputed about tastes.

Hmm... On second thought, there would be no point to this thread if that were so...

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Sir Tornado - Dec 11, 2004 9:59 pm (#2881 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Precisely. Now, Tornado, if you put Harry and Luna together and Neville with Ginny, who do you have left of the six? ;-) -- Czarina II

Hermione and a dead Ron.

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Star Crossed - Dec 12, 2004 5:55 am (#2882 of 2916)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Now, now, play nicely. Ron will not die for a very long time, and in that time, he and Hermione shall be very happy. Harry will just have to love Luna. That's all there is to it.

Or Pansy. Up to you.

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Weeny Owl - Dec 12, 2004 4:14 pm (#2883 of 2916)

Regardless of who ends up with whom, I don't want most of the characters to die. There are exceptions, of course, and if Buckbeak gobbles a twitchy little ferret, I wouldn't be too unhappy about it.

Even if JKR does put Harry with Hermione or Pansy or someone else, and if Ron ends up with Luna, Lavender, Parvati, Padma, Hannah, or someone else, I'll be happy as long as they live long and productive lives.

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total hatred - Dec 12, 2004 4:39 pm (#2884 of 2916)

Hermione and Ron happy together. It will be a pure nightmare. Ron might be happy but I seriously doubt about Hermione. After all, he was the one asking for the ship. I believe that love is a two way process, not one way. Many will not agree with me but I think that Ron chances with Hermione decreases signficantly with each passing book. It due to the fact to his immaturity and tendency to be attention seeker. It doesn't mean that you are now nice to her that you will get her. You must also learn to understand her feelings and that what Ron lacks. He is egoistic and usually doesn't care about others feelings. Just what Hermione said, his emotional range is in a size of a teaspoon.

Btw, Happy birtday to me.

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Paulus Maximus - Dec 12, 2004 4:58 pm (#2885 of 2916)

Unless, like James, his head deflates a bit.

Remember, James at 15 wasn't that much different...

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hellocello3200 - Dec 12, 2004 7:07 pm (#2886 of 2916)

Paulus, I don't think that Ron has a big head at all. Unlike James, he is a bit insecure, but I agree with you that he could change. I think that self-esteem is one personality trait that can change quickly in either direction. If he was more self-assured, he might lose other less than desirable traits.

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Qwaz - Dec 12, 2004 9:06 pm (#2887 of 2916)

After 2890 posts if i never see the word 'ship again it'll be to soon.

so far....

Harry appreciates that Hermione is "pretty" esp. when she puts in extra effort (GoF the ball) but doesn't think any futher than that.

Ron quite obviously likes Hermione (Jelous of krum, touches cheek...etc) but can't bring himself to say it.

Hermione i think does like Ron although she's VERY guarded (she was most annoyed that she was his last resort in GoF). She also does have a great respect for Harry though. For me she just talks about harry's relationships to "matter of factly" for the idea of herself being in one to be in her head. She and Ron do argue a lot but before a relationship sexual frustration is released in many ways.

To be fair, if i had to say anything, i'd guess at ron wanting to be with hermione who wants to be with ron but gets frustrated at his maturity sometimes. Harry seems a little more mature (or at least less openly immature) and so she shows him a little more respect.

I really hope there isn't the old love triangle as this would fracture harry and ron for a good while and they all need each other.

Onto our star. Harry seems to busy for much paying attention to girls right now. He was interested with Cho but since Diggory got there first she could never be what he wanted (she was always Cedrics-ex. not because harry couldn't let him go but because she couldnt)

I don't know where Luna sprung from but i've seen no evidence for that...she seems awefully "out there" for someone who's hung around with hermione for 5 years. Ginny does seem most likely but only because we're running out of options. She obviously liked him for a while but there's been nothing to say harry liked her yet. He definetly gets on with her, likes her and respects her but there needs to be something special happening before i'd start thinking those two are going to go somewhere.

Soooo yeah. Hermione and Ron as soon as Ron is cool and calm enough to get the words out right. Harry may just have to stay single for a bit. I don't think it'd be too awkward and 3rd wheely so long as ron and hermione are normal around harry (not all over each other...etc) they have plenty of oppertunity for alone time for that.

Wow, essay...Qwaz out.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Dec 12, 2004 10:44 pm (#2888 of 2916)

I beg to disagree, Qwaz, that Hermione likes Ron more than as a friend. (Oh, and by the way, watch your punctuations, capitalizations, etc. or else the hosts will be after your blood.)

Did any of you, by any chance, read the Chapter, "The Eye of the Snake" in HP and the OotP? In this chapter, Harry was kissed by Cho, and he tells his best friends about it. (Well, he had to tell them, because Ron and Hermione kept asking him what happened.)

All right, here's what transpired: Harry comes in, flops down next to Hermione, and was asked if he was okay. He couldn't answer, so Hermione took the matter out of his hands, and asked him in a businesslike way, "Is it Cho? Did she corner you after the meeting?" Then, when Harry nodded, and Ron asked "What did she want?", Hermione asked briskly, "Did you kiss?" Then, while waiting for Harry to answer, Ron's and Hermione's expressions were shown: Ron's was of mingled hilarity and curiosity, while Hermione was slightly frowning. Then, when Harry confirmed that they (he and Cho) kissed, Hermione threw Ron a look of deep disgust as the latter went into a raucous peal of laughter, and then returned to her letter. Then after a few snippets of conversation (where she called Ron "the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet" ) she asked Harry if "he was just trying to be nice to her (Cho)." Now, it doesn't really make sense when we look at it from the POV of the premise that Hermione likes Harry just as a friend. I mean, why not "eagerly" instead of "businesslike"? Why not "delightedly" in place of "briskly"? Or "anticipation" instead of "slight frown"? If she supports Harry's relationship with Cho, like what many of us here suppose, why didn't JKR write that scene in such a way that shows Hermione's eagerness and anticipation on what Harry and Cho does? And it's not as if Hermione's not expressive when it comes to her emotions, is it? When she's happy, for instance, we'll be left without any doubt that she really is happy. But why is Hermione not too happy at the idea that Harry and Cho kissed? Why, because she loves Harry, and doesn't want him to end up with another girl!

I'm also quite thankful that Ms. Rowling has quashed the rumors about Neville ending up with Luna. That's another shred of support for our (my and others') theories that the six students who went to the MoM will end up as couples in these pairings: Harry and Hermione, Ron and Luna, and Ginny and Neville. I will not present any more clues or symbolisms about these pairings, but I have to say this: These couples have history, they have the tendency to fall for each other, they have the tension, and they have the attraction. Not to mention the partnership, the loyalty, the sense of pride, the instinct to protect each other, the common love for adventures, and the shared memories and experiences. Those are the foundations of a long-lasting relationship,and not just childish bickering, "unresolved sexual tension", and all other sorts of nonesense. Oh, I forgot, these pairings also are the most sensible. Or at least to those who read carefully, thoroughly, and sensibly, anyway. Very Happy

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 13, 2004 7:22 am (#2889 of 2916)

Oh, I forgot, these pairings also are the most sensible. Or at least to those who read carefully, thoroughly, and sensibly, anyway. Very Happy -- Gryffindor Ghost

So, in other words, anyone who disagrees with you is reading the books sloppily, partially, and unwisely? You are free to support any 'ship you wish and argue it based upon your interpretation of the text. However, no one appreciates the implication that if they disagree with you, it is because they are simply too dumb to see what you see. I would have thought that was made plain to you several posts back, but apparently not.

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Qwaz - Dec 13, 2004 9:32 am (#2890 of 2916)

I suppose it's out of the Question that Hermione is meerly annoyed at Ron not having stepped up to the plate yet?

Wether Hermione does think of Harry that way or not, Harry certainly hasn't thought of her that way yet while it's obvious to all and sundry that Ron has.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying that I'm right, just that this seems more likely to me.

As you so aptly described GG, a Harry and Hermione pairing is far from "off the cards" but so far the only one obviously interested is Ron. Harry's oblivious. What hapened last time Harry was oblivius to someone who fancied him? They gave up and moved on.

Let's not get too violent please. We're all just stumbling in the dark waiting for Mrs. Rowling to flick the switch. For all we know Ron and Harry will get bored of girls entirly and turn to each other...but I doubt it.

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wwtMask - Dec 13, 2004 9:42 am (#2891 of 2916)

Indeed, we don't want to incur the wrath of Denise P. :-P

Seriously, let's keep the conversation civil because I'd hate to see another of my favorite threads get closed (Marietta Edgecombe!) for editing due to an uncivil tones.

Back to the subject at hand, I wonder about the peripheral characters and if they've gotten together. I think Hannah/Ernie or Hannah/Justin are likely. Are there any others we can think of? Also, I wonder at how often or likely it is that there will be relationships between girls and boys of different houses.

BTW, Qwaz, the discussion of "unconventional" pairings is against the rules here. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it is the rule, so I wouldn't take that thread any further...

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TomProffitt - Dec 13, 2004 10:23 am (#2892 of 2916)

Bullheaded empiricist
"I think Hannah/Ernie or Hannah/Justin are likely." --- wwtMask

It may be selective memory on part, but it seems to me that Ernie and Hannah are mentioned together as regularly as Fred & George. I've been assuming a Hannah & Ernie 'ship for quite some time.

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 13, 2004 10:23 am (#2893 of 2916)

BTW, Qwaz, the discussion of "unconventional" pairings is against the rules here. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it is the rule, so I wouldn't take that thread any further... -- wwtMask

Ditto.

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wwtMask - Dec 13, 2004 11:02 am (#2894 of 2916)

Yeah, I think Hannah and Ernie head up a clicque of about 6 or 7 Hufflepuffs, of whom only Justin Finch-Fletchley has been named (I'm basing this on CoS when Harry overhears them talking about him in the library).

We already know about Ginny/Dean, though I wonder why the two weren't hanging around together on the trip back to King's Cross. I also wondered if Lee would finally woo Angelina, though I also thought she might be interested in Fred.

And finally, some totally unsubstantiated ships: Lavender/Seamus and Crabbe/Millicent. Don't ask how those came about because I'm not really sure myself :-P

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Weeny Owl - Dec 13, 2004 11:53 am (#2895 of 2916)

That's another shred of support for our (my and others') theories that the six students who went to the MoM will end up as couples in these pairings: Harry and Hermione, Ron and Luna, and Ginny and Neville. I will not present any more clues or symbolisms about these pairings, but I have to say this: These couples have history, they have the tendency to fall for each other, they have the tension, and they have the attraction. Not to mention the partnership, the loyalty, the sense of pride, the instinct to protect each other, the common love for adventures, and the shared memories and experiences.

Leaving out Harry and Hermione since they've known each other from their first year and Neville and Ginny since they've known each other almost as long, what history, tension, attraction, partnership, loyalty, sense of pride, and instince to protect each other do Ron and Luna have?

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Sir Tornado - Dec 13, 2004 12:35 pm (#2896 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
It may be selective memory on part, but it seems to me that Ernie and Hannah are mentioned together as regularly as Fred & George. I've been assuming a Hannah & Ernie 'ship for quite some time.

That ship, IMO has the same chance of survival as H/Hr has. As R/Hr often argue, it can also be claimed that Hanah/Ernie relationship is purely platonic... principly because they are mentioned together since PS... and I don't honestly feel that they have been shipping from then. On the other hand, Harryt and Hermione do spend most of their time together too... and, were this books written from someone else's POV, I'm sure they would've been mentioned exactly the same way as Hanah/Ernie are.

Edit: YAY!!! 2900th post on my favourite thread! How many more posts can this thread take?

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 13, 2004 1:49 pm (#2897 of 2916)

Leaving out Harry and Hermione since they've known each other from their first year and Neville and Ginny since they've known each other almost as long, what history, tension, attraction, partnership, loyalty, sense of pride, and instince to protect each other do Ron and Luna have? -- Weeny Owl

Indeed, Weeny. I have the same question. While we're at it though, why leave out Neville and Ginny? Ginny was Neville's last resort for the Yule Ball and Ginny went with him because she wouldn't be able to go otherwise. After that, we have heard nil about Neville's love life and Ginny has definitely moved on to other people. So they had a "history" of going to a dance together and that is about the only criterion from the above list that would apply even remotely.

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Star Crossed - Dec 13, 2004 2:19 pm (#2898 of 2916)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
See, I think Susan (*hides away from Susan Potter*) will end up with Ernie. Why? Dunno. Sure, there's no proof for it, but there was no proof for Neville/Luna, and lots of people jumped onto it. Hm...however, that does seem to lower my point.

Anyways, just because I love the arguing, let me comment about how Hermione reacted. We know Hermione is a thinker. She thinks about everything, because everything has to have an answer. I always took this scene as she was considering what was going on.

Hermione: Harry and Cho kissed? Well, this will probably make it worse for Cho. Why would she do that? She was just crying over Cedric in the girl's loo the other day? Is she over him? I don't think so. Maybe she's just using him. Oh, poor Harry, this won't work out well for him.

Something like that. When a girl has to hear about the guy she fancies talking about someone else, she does not "frown slightly". She'll roll her eyes or make some comment or do something to show her disapproval. Now, before I back myself in a corner, Hermione may be different than the girls I know, but I just don't think Hermione likes Harry because she was doing what she does so very often.

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ema fewett - Dec 13, 2004 3:11 pm (#2899 of 2916)

I was actually thinking along the same lines as you Star Crossed. I think the reason Hermione frowned was because maybe she was thinking that Cho might be using him or simply that Cho doesnt like Harry deeply but just needs a boyfriend who she could talk to. Also, she might have frowned at something totally different because at the time of this conversation she was writing to Krum and maybe something she was writing didnt appeal to her so she unconsciously frowned.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Dec 13, 2004 5:19 pm (#2900 of 2916)

Yeah...possibly — but not probably. Of course we know that Hermione is really concerned about Harry, and would of course see to it that he ends up with someone to her own taste. But if she was just disapproving, it doesn't make any sense. I mean, hey, she already knew Cho was after Harry from the first day of school, right? And also after the first meeting of the D.A. in the Hog's Head, when they went out of Scrivenshaft's Quill Store, she asked Harry about Cho, and she wassmiling slightly. What's with that, eh? If she doesn't want Cho to be with Harry because she thinks that Cho, as ema fewett puts it, was just using Harry, Hermione could've said it flat out. I'm sure Harry will not be angry with her for that, he would even pause to consider it. But if Hermione wholeheartedly approves of Harry and Cho, she could've smiled teasingly while asking Harry about Cho. Now, you might argue that Hermione isn't the kind of girl that does those kind of things, but let me remind you that contrary to popular belief, Hermione does giggle, and she's also very transparent in showing her emotions. So why couldn't she tease Harry about a girl? Let us bear in mind that Ms. Rowling chooses her words carefully, and she doesn't use a word over and over again just for the sake of it. That's why I think that the slight frown on Hermione's lips while waiting for Harry to confirm that he and Cho kissed and the slight smile she wore while asking Harry about Cho are quite connected, and are subtle hints that Hermione, try as she might, cannot hide her feelings for Harry.

One more: The first D.A. meeting at the Room of Requirement. Here we witnessed Harry flirting around with Cho for a few minutes, and Hermione, out of the blue, just yells at him to check the time. Doesn't. Make. Sense. To. Me. I mean, can't she check the time all by herself? You're not telling me she hasn't got a watch? What was that, interrupting tactics? Well, yes, I think so.

Once again, I want to make this clear: I am not insulting other shippers, nor am I implying they are nitwits or something. Those comments are for some people who keep contradicting and even make snide jokes about my arguments without any real arguments of their own. All they do is just speculate, speculate, I think this, I think that, I disagree with you, you're quite wrong, etc. They're not even presenting counter-arguments with canon evidence! Now, note that I said SOME, not ALL. So, for Merlin's sake, please, please don't harp on about it if you're not guilty!

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) (Post 2900 to 2916)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 3:00 am

Cuivienen - Dec 13, 2004 6:35 pm (#2901 of 2916)
Just something brief -- the elimination of N/L does not destroy the "perfect matches" setup for the DoM fighters. It just mixes hem up. We now have:

H/L, R/Hr, N/G or H/Hr, R/L, N/G (or H/G, R/L, N/Hr which seems unlikely as Hermione is a very developed character and Neville is an underdeveloped character.)

Since is impossible, it can be reduced to those three possible combinations.

Of course, this is only the "Perfect Matches" Theory, which holds no water outside of speculation.

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Qwaz - Dec 13, 2004 7:16 pm (#2902 of 2916)

Thankyou for the two warnings however i wasn't suggesting an "unconventional" relationship discussion. Meerly pointing out that as much as we think we're right, something can pop out of the blue.

Never the less, thankyou again.

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Weeny Owl - Dec 13, 2004 9:20 pm (#2903 of 2916)

Indeed, Weeny. I have the same question. While we're at it though, why leave out Neville and Ginny? Ginny was Neville's last resort for the Yule Ball and Ginny went with him because she wouldn't be able to go otherwise. After that, we have heard nil about Neville's love life and Ginny has definitely moved on to other people. So they had a "history" of going to a dance together and that is about the only criterion from the above list that would apply even remotely.

I agree with you, Loopy, but I left them out merely because they've known each other for a few years, even if they don't know each other well, whereas Ron and Luna don't know each other at all.

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scoop2172000 - Dec 14, 2004 9:23 am (#2904 of 2916)

I posted similar information on the Hermione Granger thread, but it relates to the Hermione/Krum 'ship, so I'm posting it here too.

Now that JKR has given us Hermione's age, it makes more sense that she was 15 years old, not 14, when she attracted the attention of a much-older boy, 18-year-old Krum. Though Hermione is wise beyond her years in many ways, she might have appeared too immature to Krum if she'd only recently turned 14. A year makes a big difference in the teen-aged bracket.

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comrad - Dec 14, 2004 12:42 pm (#2905 of 2916)

Ok, here are my two cents on the topic. (Might have been said already, but I don't have time to read ~3000 messages). In real life (in which JKR lives) a man usually looks for a woman that resembles his mother. If you look at the relationship between Hermione and Ron/Harry, it is somewhat similar to Lily and James and his friends. I am not going to bring all the examples here, but for one it looks like Lily was the one who provided some sort of restraint to the James' gang crazy behaviour. And Hermione does the same to Ron/Harry. So I think that JKR is building up for another big suprise at the end (there've been oh so many where obvious clues point in one direction, but the end is quite unexpected) and it will be Harry and Hermione together, and all Ron/Hermione clues is a red herring. As to the others, after the recent info on JKR website, it most likely be Ron/Luna and Neville/Ginny

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Sir Tornado - Dec 14, 2004 2:07 pm (#2906 of 2916)

Rebel without a cause.
Ok, here are my two cents on the topic. (Might have been said already, but I don't have time to read ~3000 messages). In real life (in which JKR lives) a man usually looks for a woman that resembles his mother. If you look at the relationship between Hermione and Ron/Harry, it is somewhat similar to Lily and James and his friends. I am not going to bring all the examples here, but for one it looks like Lily was the one who provided some sort of restraint to the James' gang crazy behaviour. And Hermione does the same to Ron/Harry. So I think that JKR is building up for another big suprise at the end (there've been oh so many where obvious clues point in one direction, but the end is quite unexpected) and it will be Harry and Hermione together, and all Ron/Hermione clues is a red herring. As to the others, after the recent info on JKR website, it most likely be Ron/Luna and Neville/Ginny -- Comrad

Welcome fellow H/Hr shipper. I agree with you, though I expect R/Hr to come up with a rather good argument to that post... (Might be something related to their personal expiriences, Jane Austien Novels or some thing related to cliches, IMO)

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 14, 2004 2:25 pm (#2907 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Comrad - Ok, here are my two cents on the topic. (Might have been said already, but I don't have time to read ~3000 messages). In real life (in which JKR lives) a man usually looks for a woman that resembles his mother.

Okay, let's go with that. In James Potter's fifth year, his future wife yells at and finds fault with him and his friends in a very public fashion. Hmmmmm..... let me see if I can think of a girl in Harry's fifth year that yells at and finds fault with him and his friends in a very public fashion.

Gee, I don't know. Anybody? :-D

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 14, 2004 2:37 pm (#2908 of 2916)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Sir Tornado-First subject I been able to agree with you on something. I have been a H/Hr shipper since day one(ducks dungbombs) Ow! that one got me.

Mikie

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Paulus Maximus - Dec 14, 2004 3:04 pm (#2909 of 2916)

"Hmmmmm..... let me see if I can think of a girl in Harry's fifth year that yells at and finds fault with him and his friends in a very public fashion."

Depending on what happens to Harry, that might actually work.

Particularly if he defeats and succeeds Lord Voldemort.

On the other hand, Harry didn't humiliate his enemies in public, and he preferred discretion in such matters. There is another girl who criticized Harry more discreetly...

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Susan Potter - Dec 14, 2004 5:00 pm (#2910 of 2916)

Weeny Owl said: Leaving out Harry and Hermione since they've known each other from their first year and Neville and Ginny since they've known each other almost as long, what history, tension, attraction, partnership, loyalty, sense of pride, and instince to protect each other do Ron and Luna have? -- Weeny Owl

Loopy Lupin said: Indeed, Weeny. I have the same question. While we're at it though, why leave out Neville and Ginny? Ginny was Neville's last resort for the Yule Ball and Ginny went with him because she wouldn't be able to go otherwise. After that, we have heard nil about Neville's love life and Ginny has definitely moved on to other people. So they had a "history" of going to a dance together and that is about the only criterion from the above list that would apply even remotely.

...Concerning Neville/Ginny... I ship it because of the way Neville tried to stop the slytherins from taking her... in fact, it was mentioned that it was the only reason that he was taken (don't have page numbers) and also on the train where Ginny “vehemently” tells Neville that he's not a nobody... on a more personal note I think Ginny will do Neville more good then she will Harry just imho... anyway there is a lot more to this ship then the yule ball.

Luna and Harry though, has me stumped...

Total hatred said: Hermione and Ron happy together. It will be a pure nightmare. Ron might be happy but I seriously doubt about Hermione. After all, he was the one asking for the ship. I believe that love is a two way process, not one-way.

Well… Harry has shown "no" interest in Hermione, so that is also a “half ship”... and I think by the way that Ron and Hermione have been friends for, how long has it been? I don’t think that if they get together it will be a “pure nightmare”... Ron and Hermione will both have to grow and change to form a relationship... People seem to forget that so will Harry and Hermione... Hermione nags and Harry evades... does not exactly spell out “healthy relationship,” at least, not to me. "Every" relationship needs to be worked on... there is NO such thing as a perfect relationship, that’s what makes them so hard.

Susan...

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Star Crossed - Dec 14, 2004 5:03 pm (#2911 of 2916)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Can we please leave out James and his friends when we discuss the HRH triangle? My mother chose a smart-witted, able to stand on his own, quick to defend himself kind of husband. Does that mean I will? No, I rather like timid men. Just because our parents like a certain type of (wo)man, does not mean the children must as well. And yes, there is evidence for so many ships when you look at their generations:

H/Hr - James marries a smart muggleborn. Harry looks exactly like James, and he has a smart muggleborn friend. R/Hr - James and Lily bicker. Ron and Hermione bicker. H/G - James is a small and lanky boy with black hair. Lily is a woman with red hair (Not quite sure of too much else). Harry is a small and lanky boy with black hair. Ginny is a woman with red hair.

You could look for any ship and find it by looking at past generations. However, we are not discussing them, we are discussing HRHGNL (Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville, and Luna). Yes, we are discussing others as well, but we keep picking apart these six the most. If you are talking about these six, could we please refrain from mentioning Marauders + Lily in comparison?

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 14, 2004 5:20 pm (#2912 of 2916)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Dec 14, 2004 4:21 pm
This is the general 'shipping thread. We can't limit its scope any further. So if someone wishes to post about any 'ship in the book, he can post here.

Sorry.

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Star Crossed - Dec 14, 2004 5:25 pm (#2913 of 2916)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I don't mind that. I know we can post different ships on here. I just don't think we should be comparing Harry/Ginny/Ron/Hermione to James/Lily/Whoever Else. Maybe that's just me though. If it is, feel free to ignore my last two posts. Very Happy

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comrad - Dec 14, 2004 5:35 pm (#2914 of 2916)

In reply to PerfectMarcus:

Well, instead of picking at specific event, I was talking more about a role of the voice of reason that Lily played in that relationship and Hermione plays in HRH triangle.

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comrad - Dec 14, 2004 5:40 pm (#2915 of 2916)

In reply to StarCrossed:

I was under the impression that we can use anything from the books to prove the point so I don't see why any particular part of the book, that might be relevant, should be left out.

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Kip Carter - Dec 14, 2004 5:49 pm (#2916 of 2916)

co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
I have closed out this thread being that it is approaching the maximum number of messages allowed on a thread. Being 73 messages were deleted, this thread would peak out at 2,927 total.

The title for this original thread has been changed to reflect the period of the messages included and the new thread has assumed the title 'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships).

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:30 am

Prefect Marcus - Dec 14, 2004 6:20 pm (#1 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
First post.

Harry/Pansy all the way!!!

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KWeldon - Dec 14, 2004 6:43 pm (#2 of 1858)

Marcus,

I'm sure that the H/Hr shippers and H/G shippers are going to spew that you sneaked in the first post to this thread.

What does it say about the members of this forum in general that this topic reached almost 3000 posts, in a series of books certainly not wholly centered on romance! Human nature---how amusing.

KWeldon

H/P all the way indeed!!

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Eponine - Dec 14, 2004 7:50 pm (#3 of 1858)

KWeldon, this forum, in comparison to others I have visited, is positively apathetic about ships. I like that we are forced to keep shipping to one thread (two if you count Marcus's ship uniting one), and it doesn't usually invade other topics. I appreciate the fact that I can read good theories on Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny and the others without being inundated with shipping preferences.

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Robert Dierken - Dec 14, 2004 9:10 pm (#4 of 1858)

I observe the following:
(1) There is a family named Lovegood near Ottery Saint Catchpole.
(2) Luna always gets back everything that is hers.
(3) Luna is flirting with Ron at various times.

Does this mean that Ron and Luna were childhood playmates, and Luna gets him back?

I think that Luna will end up with somebody. Who does Luna Lovegood love good?

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Qwaz - Dec 14, 2004 9:46 pm (#5 of 1858)

Someone in the previous incarnation of this thread mentioned Hermione nagging Ron a bit. Reminds me of Mrs. Weasley and her husband.

I'm not running after the Hermione and Ron relationship and don't think this adds any particular weight to it if i was...just found it interesting. Smile

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comrad - Dec 14, 2004 10:57 pm (#6 of 1858)

My luck! As soon as I join the thread, they close it out Sad

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 15, 2004 6:34 am (#7 of 1858)

Robert, I think the Luna/Ron playmate theory is interesting, but I don't recall anything from OoP that indicates Ron knew who she was prior to sharing the car on the Hogwarts Express.

Oh, and Harry/Pansy all the way indeed!!

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KWeldon - Dec 15, 2004 7:48 am (#8 of 1858)

this forum, in comparison to others I have visited, is positively apathetic about ships

Eponine,

That's a scary thought. I wonder if it has to do with the average age of posters on this forum? My impression has been that there aren't that many adolescents....

KWeldon

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Tomoé - Dec 15, 2004 7:53 am (#9 of 1858)

Back in business
Good, a new thread on 'ship, I won't have to get through the 2,112 posts I still have to read on the other one. ^_~

I had a dinner with a couple of friends the other day, one of them said he believe Hermione was in love with Krum and they'll end up together. He said the fact that Hermione still write to him and doesn't show his letters to Harry and Ron (like Harry and Ron did with Sirius's and Percy's) indicate there's more to their relationship than met the eyes.

Can you guys refresh my memories on the assumptions and theories regarding that matter?

Marcus and Loopy, you better have some stoat sandwiches ready when HbP will be out (shouldn't we all). ^_~

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Eponine - Dec 15, 2004 8:02 am (#10 of 1858)

KWeldon, I don't know why it is. I think it must have to do with limiting shipping talk to this thread, and the fact that the moderators are very good at keeping the debates from getting out of hand.

Robert, the Ron/Luna possibility is interesting, but I think it's probably more likely that Ginny and Luna played together growing up. There isn't any indication that Ron knew Luna before Ginny introduced them. It's an interesting idea though.

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 15, 2004 9:08 am (#11 of 1858)

Marcus and Loopy, you better have some stoat sandwiches ready when HbP will be out (shouldn't we all). -- Tomoe

Yes, I can't wait to hand out stoat sandwiches to everyone. Razz

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Tomoé - Dec 15, 2004 9:45 am (#12 of 1858)

Back in business
LOL, that was superbly throw back to the sender Loopy. ^_^

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scoop2172000 - Dec 15, 2004 11:35 am (#13 of 1858)

Eponine, I like your idea that Ginny and Luna may have played together as girls. Certainly, that helps explain why they spend time together as Hogwarts students, even though they're in different Houses.

Too, I got the impression that Arthur Weasley knows the Lovegoods from the neighborhood. Certainly, he made mention of the Lovegoods when talking to Amos Diggory on the way (via Portkey) to the World Cup.

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Choices - Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm (#14 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well, the Diggory family lives in the same area as the Weasleys, but we have no indication that Cedric played with any of the Weasley children. It just didn't seem like Ginny knew Luna before meeting her at Hogwarts and I think Luna is older than Ginny (but I could be wrong). I thought she was more Ron and Harry's age. Isn't it odd that she was there at Hogwarts for possibly 4 years and we never heard even a mention of her, then suddenly, she is an important character? Usually JKR gives us an introduction to people or things in one book before she puts them in an upcoming book.

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KWeldon - Dec 15, 2004 12:05 pm (#15 of 1858)

I'm certain Luna is in Ginny's year. I think. Wink

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 15, 2004 12:11 pm (#16 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Yes, Luna is in Ginny's year. Ginny says so when they enter the train compartment for the first time.

There are few people who book passage on the Krum/Hermione 'ship. And the fact the Hermione keeps their letters private means little, IMO. She has shown upon a number of occasions that she does not share all that she knows with her two best friends.

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Choices - Dec 15, 2004 12:15 pm (#17 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think Hermione is friends with Krum, but I wonder if she doesn't write to him just to ruffle Ron's feathers a bit.

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The One - Dec 15, 2004 12:18 pm (#18 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
Private letters are private. It is quite possible that even if Hermione was willing to read her letter aloud to the boys before she sent it, she would still hide the letter from Ron when he tried to read it without her consent, just as a matter of principles.

I think that Hermiones reactions when Viktor comes to say goodbye pretty much kills the V/Her ship. There was something there earlier in GoF, but now they are only pen-pals. IMHO.


Loopy Lupin - Dec 15, 2004 3:01 pm (#19 of 1858) [/b]
I think Hermione is friends with Krum, but I wonder if she doesn't write to him just to ruffle Ron's feathers a bit.-- Choices

I'll vote with Hermione and Krum being just friends. I don't think that she would write to him solely for the purpose of ruffling Ron's feathers. However, I do think that she was quite purposeful in letting it be known to Ron that she writes to Krum even if the actual content would never be revealed.

Hey, Marcus. Good to see you around again.

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 15, 2004 3:21 pm (#20 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Dec 15, 2004 2:22 pm
Good to see you too, Loopy.

No, I doubt there is much between Hermione and Krum. They became friends in her fourth year. They wrote letters to each other a year later. No big deal.

It can be safely said that she wasn't trying to hide their correspondance from her two best friends, Harry and Ron. Now whether or not she did it deliberately with malice aforethought is debateable.

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Choices - Dec 15, 2004 7:51 pm (#21 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I don't mean she only wrote to Krum to ruffle Ron's feathers, but that may have been a little bonus for Hermione. She explained to Harry about how Cho tried to make Harry jealous to see if he liked her....well, I think Hermione may be trying to make Ron play his cards a little bit. Sometimes Ron is a bit thick and has to have things pointed out to him.....like he likes Hermione, but he may not yet realize he likes her and she is just playing with him a bit to force him to acknowledge the fact. Does that make any sense?

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Sir Tornado - Dec 15, 2004 8:16 pm (#22 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
Choices... Hermione already has Ron jealous at Krum, many times over. The one person who hasn't given a damn (Am I allowed to use this word here in this context?) about Hermione's relatonship to Krum is Harry. It is likely that she is still hiding her letters to Krum to make Harry jealous, and she gave Harry advice about girls to make him see how she feels. Harry though, is still at sea...

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Robert Dierken - Dec 15, 2004 9:22 pm (#23 of 1858)

If Harry is still at sea, he needs a 'ship!

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Gryffindor Ghost - Dec 16, 2004 12:26 am (#24 of 1858)

And all he needs is his own! (HMS Pumpkin Pie, that is.)

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KWeldon - Dec 16, 2004 7:07 am (#25 of 1858)

No, the HMS Pansy Parkinson. There's about to be a mutiny against Captain Draco. Wink

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 16, 2004 7:14 am (#26 of 1858)

The one person who hasn't given a damn (Am I allowed to use this word here in this context?) about Hermione's relatonship to Krum is Harry.-- Sir Tornado

Good point. You may call Harry a clueless teenager, etc., but perhaps he just doesn't really care who Hermione writes to. Ron, on the other hand, seems very interested, and I don't think its entirely coincidental that Hermione openly writes to the one person that caused Ron to get a wee bit jealous, putting it mildly. I think "malice aforethought" is rather strong wording, at least connotatively; if Hermione is purposely stirring a little jealousy in Ron, some women would call that "clever."

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 16, 2004 12:00 pm (#27 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Dec 16, 2004 1:49 pm
Sir Tornado, Try a different word such as 'hoot' instead. Means the same thing without any danger.

Loopy, A rose by any other name... :-) I just don't see Hermione's actions as deliberate. Perhaps they were. If they were, I doubt they were to cause Ron jealousy. Instead, I think it more likely that she was staking out a territory. "I'm writing to whom I want to write, and you can't stop me."

I think her reaction supports this scenario more than the jealousy one. That would have been more on the coy side, I would imagine.

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 16, 2004 12:52 pm (#28 of 1858)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I don't subscribe to the RH'ship and I believe that the letter writing to Krum is nothing more than one friend corresponding with another friend. I do believe that Ron is jealous but I don't see it being egged on by Hermione. She can't help it that the mail is delivered at breakfast while all of her friends are present. I also agree with an earlier post that stated that Hermione seemed to make her relationship with Krum very clear to him(Krum)at the end of GoF.

Mikie

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Chemyst - Dec 16, 2004 12:57 pm (#29 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Territorial staking? Hmm, that could fit. But I've generally regarded it as Hermione's need for some mature intellectual stimulation– it's not that Ron & Harry aren't good enough, it's just that sometimes she'd want to talk with someone not quite so clueless. Much more when I was in school, but even now to a lesser degree, I had my artsy-bohemian friends and my geeky-conventional ones. Sometimes it was more fun to go hiking in the rain and other times a nice warm dry lecture hall was more appealing. Usually the same friends didn't like both. Ron and Harry can fill Hermione's adventure quota, but sometimes she needs to talk with someone who appreciates her other side for something beyond study notes at exam time.

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scoop2172000 - Dec 16, 2004 1:22 pm (#30 of 1858)

I agree with Prefect Marcus about Hermione exercising her right to write to whomever she wants, including Krum.

If she'd really been trying to make Ron jealous, she could have let it "slip" that she was writing to Krum. Sorta like Cho letting it slip to Harry in Madame Puddifoot's that she used to go there with Cedric and that Roger Davies had asked her out.

Hermione didn't volunteer the fact that she was writing to Krum, but when asked point-blank who the long letter was being written to, she answered honestly and matter-of-factly.

I did find it interesting that she said she was writing to "Victor" instead of "Krum." Now that, I'm willing to give all you R/Hr 'shippers, may have been Hermione rattling Ron's cage. And it appeared to have worked.

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 16, 2004 1:48 pm (#31 of 1858)

"I'm writing to whom I want to write, and you can't stop me." -- Prefect Marcus

True, perfectly true. And, I think scoop correctly points out that she didn't volunteer who she was writing too, but was asked which would easily lead into the defense of her territory. I'd even have to concede that her motivations or feelings in this area are not as dead obvious as they were during the fight after the Yule Ball, and certainly don't find Hermione to be particularly manipulative. I guess I'm just observing that it gets Ron a little riled, and I don't think she minds all that much.

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 16, 2004 3:14 pm (#32 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
I fully agree with Chemyst on this. Hermione's best friends are Ron and Harry. She might even have a soft place in her heart for Ron, though she has been hiding it well.

Girls mature faster emotionally than boys, and Ron and Harry are both younger than she. Hermione has to get tired of all the Quidditch talk. She does seem to talk girl-talk with Ginny, but she has to crave some male correspondance of a more mature nature (no euphemism intended).

I don't think it signifies anything that she called him, 'Victor'. I don't see any girl telling her friends that she is writing to 'surname'. It doesn't quite fit.

I think she and her best friends were spending some time together in the common room, and she was taking the opportunity to write to another friend. She is completely comfortable with Harry and Ron. So she was doing some personal correspondance. I think it no more than this.

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Weeny Owl - Dec 16, 2004 3:50 pm (#33 of 1858)

Try a different word such as 'hoot' instead.

As an owl, I can certainly concur with this.

I agree completely with Chemyst and Marcus, and what Marcus said about girls using first names is certainly true with all of the girls I knew in high school. The only people we ever used surnames for were adults.

I don't see Hermione as someone who would try to make a guy jealous. She is too frank and too outspoken for that. I'm in the Ron and Hermione camp, but no matter what guy she favors, she seems the type to expect him to accept her at face value and not play games and she would be the same way with him.

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 16, 2004 5:07 pm (#34 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Weeny Owl - I don't see Hermione as someone who would try to make a guy jealous. She is too frank and too outspoken for that. I'm in the Ron and Hermione camp, but no matter what guy she favors, she seems the type to expect him to accept her at face value and not play games and she would be the same way with him.

You've put your finger on the crux of the matter, Weeny. Hermione is simply not that manipulative of others' feelings. She isn't above using her feminine wiles to get what she wants, (witness her extracting information from Hagrid about the stone's protection, and getting Lockhart's signature on the permission slip) but she has never tried that trick on Harry and Ron. She uses more direct means with them.

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Weeny Owl - Dec 16, 2004 9:17 pm (#35 of 1858)

I'm not sure it was necessarily feminine wiles as much as her using her intelligence to work out how best to achieve her desired goals. Sounds kinda Slytherinish, doesn't it?

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Nicole Bloom - Dec 16, 2004 11:19 pm (#36 of 1858)

I am a full R/H shipper and every scene with them makes me giggle because it's too funny. They remind me so much of Molly and Arthur. I never saw anything between them until the fight after the Yull Ball, and then I went, "Oh my gosh, he LIKES her!"

I think Ron gets most upset about Krum because he sees him as direct competition. The same reason that Hermione kept getting annoyed about Ron's behaviour around Fleur, direct competition.

I think Hermione is well aware of what is going on as girls do mature faster than boys. Maybe Hermione is just waiting until Ron catches up to her.

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Sir Tornado - Dec 17, 2004 1:40 pm (#37 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
They remind me so much of Molly and Arthur.

I don't agree with this. The only point in the books where R/Hr look like Arthur and Molly is in OotP (Harry mentions it himself) BTW, contrary to the popular belief, Arthur and Molly don't really bicker do they? It's Molly who shouts, while Arthur tries to backtrack. Sounds more like Harry/Hermione to me!

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Susan Potter - Dec 17, 2004 2:40 pm (#38 of 1858)

Nicole bloom said...They remind me so much of Molly and Arthur.

sir Tornado replied... I don't agree with this. The only point in the books where R/Hr look like Arthur and Molly is in OotP (Harry mentions it himself) BTW, contrary to the popular belief, Arthur and Molly don't really bicker do they? It's Molly who shouts, while Arthur tries to backtrack. Sounds more like Harry/Hermione to me!

There is also the "dirt on the nose" train scene in Ss, where Molly tells Ron that he has dirt on the nose, then Hermione does the same thing later on... but that's all I can think of. Not really shippy(OMHO) but it is a case where JKR used the Parallel, or half of it.

As to Molly/ and Arthur bickering...there is canon where they do disagree with each other... on the top of my head letting the twins stay at the table to discuss Voldemort, comes to mind...Molly and arthur have the advantage of age and a some-odd-year of marriage, they know how to work out thier problems without it getting into a immature -I'm right! now admit it!- which I think Ron and hermoine get into due to age... So I think Ron and Hermione's bickering is different because they are young still... as they both grow and mature, it will become "less"... keep in mind that in OOTP they had less arguments then they did in Ss... on the other hand, though Harry seems to avoid Hermione more and more in every book, which in turn leads to Hermione nagging more and more.

susan...

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Star Crossed - Dec 17, 2004 4:38 pm (#39 of 1858)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Arthur and Molly also argued about whether or not to tell Harry a supposed murderer was after him.

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The One - Dec 17, 2004 5:17 pm (#40 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
And we have Molly telling of Arthur for bewitching the car, and Molly berating Arthur for trying muggle medicine. "Even you wolud not be that stupid!" Of cousre, this is the cases where Arthur backs off.

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Choices - Dec 17, 2004 6:40 pm (#41 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have always thought Hermione is more "motherly" with Ron and to a degree with Harry too. She nags both of them about homework and getting behind with their work, plans out their studying schedule, won't let them cheat or copy her work, etc. Definitely more "motherly" then "girlfriendly".

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Sir Tornado - Dec 17, 2004 7:58 pm (#42 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
Arthur and Molly also argued about whether or not to tell Harry a supposed murderer was after him. -- Star Crossed

Aly, you can't call that bickering. It was a serious debate and they were deciding what was best for Harry. Now, Harry has some similar arguments like that with Hermione too, like the pne at the end of OotP, about the DA etc. So, Arthur and Molly are indeed more like Harry and Hermione. Their arguments, like H/Hr's concern life and death rather than the silly issues on which R/Hr bicker. As far as the twin's being in the order is concerned, it wasn't really bickering; rather it was Arthur staying firm on the issue -- there wasn't a real argument there, was there -- just like Harry does against Hermione ever so often.

I have always thought Hermione is more "motherly" with Ron and to a degree with Harry too. She nags both of them about homework and getting behind with their work, plans out their studying schedule, won't let them cheat or copy her work, etc. Definitely more "motherly" then "girlfriendly". -- Choices

Exactly; however, some of the R/Hr shippers overlook this fact when they say that H/Hr isn't possible because Hermione behaves like Harry's mother instead of like his girlfriend.

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Nicole Bloom - Dec 17, 2004 9:06 pm (#43 of 1858)

What was implied by the paralell drawn between R/H and Molly and Arthur was the humor in their bickering. But now that I think about it, R/H argue about what's best for Harry as much as Molly and Arthur do. The best example I can think of is all through PoA when Harry is sneaking out to see Hagrid or to go to Hogsmeade. R/H argue about whether or not Harry should do it right in front of him.

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Sir Tornado - Dec 17, 2004 9:20 pm (#44 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
R/H argue about what's best for Harry as much as Molly and Arthur do.

There's one problem in the argument. Arthur and MOlly both have their views of what Harry should or shouldn't do. As far as R/Hr are concerned, it is Hermione who tells Harry what he should /shouldn't do, and Ron just tells Hermione to stop nagging. He doesn't really have opinions about what Harry should/shouldn't do, unlike Mr Weasley. It can thus be argued that while Arthur/Molly argue over what's good for Harry, Ron/Hermione just bicker over Hermione nagging Harry. A significant difference.

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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Dec 18, 2004 9:23 am (#45 of 1858)

No day but Today
"Definatley more motherly than girlfriendy"

Can you not be both? I can be quite motherly when it comes to all of my friends, including my boyfriend, but i can still be a normal girlfriend. I think its just a matter of wanting the best for them, and the fact that girls often have motherly instincts that makes Hermione motherly. The same can be said of Molly. She sometimes berates Arthur the way she does with the kids, but she is still his wife, showing respect for his opinions, and supporting his decisions, etc.

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Choices - Dec 18, 2004 10:35 am (#46 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
That is a sticky question. I think most men do not want to think of their mothers and their girlfriends in the same way - sort of kills the romance. Mothers and girlfriends should be seperate and not behave in the same way. Does that make sense? Men may tolerate being nagged by their mothers, but not by their girlfriends.


Sir Tornado - Dec 18, 2004 11:50 am (#47 of 1858) [/b]
Rebel without a cause.
Men may tolerate being nagged by their mothers, but not by their girlfriends.

Lets see then. Ron doesn't like being nagged by his Mom AND Hermione.

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Solitaire - Dec 18, 2004 11:52 am (#48 of 1858)

If Hermione truly is interested in Viktor as a possible romantic partner, perhaps we will see her visit him this summer. What may make him significant to her is the fact that he is the first man to actually SEE her as a woman worthy of notice as a romantic object--a fact she is quick to point out to Ron. He sees beauty in her, and he finds her intelligence interesting where Ron and Harry often find it irritating and bothersome, even though they would probably be lost without her frequent help.

Whether Ron will prefer Hermione to Luna in the end depends on whether he wants a full-time sparring partner or someone who is kind of spacey but seems to worship him (and hums Weasley is our King around the house). It is possible that he might opt for the more peaceful existence in the long run. Life with Hermione would certainly be wild and woolly, but she might be a bit too much like his mom.

I find it hard to match anyone with Harry at the moment. He seems to have enough on his plate without having to worry about a full-blown relationship and all that entails. Cho was certainly too high maintenance for him. Ginny might fit the bill, as she doesn't seem to need a lot of coddling ... but I don't see anything there yet. If he likes older women, perhaps one of the Quidditch-playing girls ...

Solitaire

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The One - Dec 18, 2004 4:03 pm (#49 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
and he finds her intelligence interesting where Ron and Harry often find it irritating and bothersome, even though they would probably be lost without her frequent help.

I fail to see that Harry finds Hermione's intelligence irritating and bothersome. Ron seems to do so, but as far as I can see Harry does not. He is sometimes a bit annoyed by her nagging, yes, but that is not the same. That is one of the reasons that I see far more hope for a Harry/Hermione relationship than for a Ron/Hermione relationship: Harry accepts, respects and loves Hermione for who she is, he "marvels" at her efforts, "admires" how she handles nastiness and feels "pride" in her abilities, while Ron, who undoubly also loves his female friend, is a bit irritated and bothered by her abilities as a student.

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Weeny Owl - Dec 18, 2004 4:21 pm (#50 of 1858)

Harry also gets royally ticked off at Hermione when she goes into "nag mode."

Hermione said nothing at all for the rest of the lesson, but Harry had a shrewd suspicion that her self-restraint was bound to crack before long. Sure enough, once they had left the castle for break and were standing around in the weak May sunshine, she fixed Harry with a beady eye and opened her mouth with a determined air.

Harry interrupted her before she had even started.

"It's no good nagging me, it's done," he said firmly. "Fred and George have got the gold - spent a good bit of it, too, by the sounds of it - and I can't get it back from them and I don't want to. So save your breath, Hermione."

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 51 to 100)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:32 am

ema fewett - Dec 18, 2004 8:45 pm (#51 of 1858)
You know, this debate is seriously interesting. I have a question for you Sir Tornado(because you're a really good debater and seem persistant in trying to prove that Harry and Hermione will get together). All this while, you have given all the clues relating to Hermione liking Harry. My question is, do you have any "evidence" in Harry's perspective in the way he likes(or possibly loves......you chose) Hermione. I dont mean like physical(like how he tried to protect her with Grawp or the the stuff that happened in DOM, but I mean emotionally and mentally. Good luck!

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Solitaire - Dec 18, 2004 9:10 pm (#52 of 1858)

The One ... you are correct. Irritating and bothersome are probably not the correct terms--although I do think they have considered her rather a know-it-all in the past, and it has bugged them. Harry, however, has certainly appreciated her knowledge at various times during their escapades.

Actually, I like Harry and Hermione together. I think they complement each other beautifully. I also think Harry loves Hermione, although I'm not sure he recognizes this emotion just yet for what it is. (How's that for going out on a limb?) The truth is--and no, I do not have any support for this; it's just something I feel--I think Harry would be more devastated if Hermione were killed than if Ron were to die.

Solitaire

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Sir Tornado - Dec 19, 2004 12:31 am (#53 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
My question is, do you have any "evidence" in Harry's perspective in the way he likes(or possibly loves......you chose) Hermione. I dont mean like physical(like how he tried to protect her with Grawp or the the stuff that happened in DOM, but I mean emotionally and mentally. Good luck! -- ema fewett

essay

IMO, it's an excellent essay. I completely agree with the author and the essay was a major influence why I became H/Hr ship in the first place.

Edit: I think that my views on the trio are exactly the same as the views mentioned by Solitaire in her post preceding mine. Except, of course, that I support H/Hr.

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The One - Dec 19, 2004 5:16 am (#54 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
I have a question for you Sir Tornado(because you're a really good debater and seem persistant in trying to prove that Harry and Hermione will get together). All this while, you have given all the clues relating to Hermione liking Harry. My question is, do you have any "evidence" in Harry's perspective in the way he likes(or possibly loves......you chose) Hermione.

I am not Tornado, but we ar comerades in arms, so I will post a link to a post I did on the HP Revelation forum in response to a similar question.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Choices - Dec 19, 2004 10:01 am (#55 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I too think Harry and Hermione are far more alike than Hermione and Ron. Ron is adorable and I love him, but Hermione and Harry have more in common. They both, even though they are wizards, come from the Muggle world. They both have more serious outlooks on life. There are several times where Hermione and Harry are teamed up to solve a problem - it is Ron who is left behind in SS as Harry and Hermione go on, it is Ron who is hurt and left behind in POA while Harry and Hermione try to save Sirius (and Buckbeak). Of course, Harry and Ron do a lot together, but we don't see Hermione and Ron teamed up to do much. Hermione and Harry seem to be more of one mind, whereas Ron sometimes just doesn't seem to get it. All in all, I think Harry and Hermione make a better team.

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Jennifer Anderson - Dec 19, 2004 11:08 am (#56 of 1858)

Sir Tornado there are some problems with some of the points in that essay exaple, the three foundations for a romance trust, repect, and rich history. In truth Harry and Hermione only have one of those three things going for them. The two they don't have going for them are the most important ones trust and repect. Hermione cannot trust Harry enough to have a working romance with him. Because Harry lies to her on aleast three occasions and as I recall he does it with very little if any shame. And it is a fact you can't fully trust who you know lies to you. On to repect or the lack thereof: Harry does not repect Hermione that much, cause if you lie to someone and you don't feel bad about it you really don't repect them. P.S. Incase you can't tell I'm a Ron and Hermione shipper.

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Susan Potter - Dec 19, 2004 4:38 pm (#57 of 1858)

solitaire said...I think Harry would be more devastated if Hermione were killed than if Ron were to die.

I think you are letting your "ship bias" take hold-g-, and would like to remind you that RON was the one that Harry would miss most in GoF... and that when Harry spends time with Hermione there is a lot less "laughter" and more “studying"... I mean... Harry would feel more sad if Hermione died them Ron?... He would feel equally upset if either one of them died... unlike you, Harry doesn’t “rank them”.

Anyway... It's funny H/Hr's "talk big" about the wonderful, perfect relationship that us mere mortals will never understand that is “Harry/Hermione”... then I re-read the books and find that it's a different story in canon...

I read, pushing and nagging from Hermione, avoiding and Lying from Harry, yelling to the point of Harry wanting to Strangle Hermione, and Hermione close to tears and afraid of Harry... who didn't mind Hermione having been hurt by his owl, wanted to shake her in a fit of aggression, avoided conflicts by lying to Hermione, didn't speak to her at all during the fall-out in PoA...even though it was obvious she was just trying to help, doesn’t support her with spew, in fact tells her she should "give it up"... most certainly doesn’t let her know how he feels about it...

Harry just doesn't seem interested in what Hermione does apart from things that directly concern *him*. Whether it’s whom she’s dating, her home life, or anything else... and it's Ron, not Hermione, that seems to have a grasp at what Harry needs emotionally...

Harry and Hermione are good friends, and they are excellent at solving mysteries together, mostly due to Hermione’s smarts... but they aren't the "ideal couple" I see many obstacles in their future, should they decide to give romance a try. I Don’t know where this “monumental couple” idea come from but unfortunately I see it as an exaggeration from the what is written in the books...

Susan...

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Solitaire - Dec 19, 2004 5:09 pm (#58 of 1858)

Actually, Susan, I am not a "shipper" and never have been. Until my first post on this thread, I'd never even looked at a ship thread before. There just weren't any posts on my regular threads, I was at loose ends waiting, and I was curious to see why there was a brand new ship thread.

In the beginning, and even through GoF, I tended to feel as you do about Harry and Ron. It is hard to put my finger on why or where I "felt" a change. It's just a sense I get. I am not saying Harry wouldn't be cut to the core if anything happened to Ron; I think the death of any Weasley would turn him inside out, even with all of the deaths he has already suffered. I have begun to think, however, over the last reading of OotP, that it might be the loss of Hermione that would hit him harder--and that is apart from any romantic thing. Like all gut feelings, I can't explain it.

Frankly, as an adult, I don't think much about their love lives. I think they all have way too much on their plates to be aimed in that direction very often. They are normal teens, to be sure; but their problems are more immediate and far deadlier than those things surrounding the teens I see on a daily basis. For this reason, they are less preoccupied by the stuff that preoccupies most Muggle kids their age. Personally, I find it refreshing!

Solitaire

Edit: btw, Susan, I am not ranking them. Some losses just sock you harder than others. I think Hermione might be one of those.

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Choices - Dec 19, 2004 6:35 pm (#59 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think we have been seeing all three kids going through very adolescent things and reacting as adolescents do. I just have the feeling that as Harry and Hermione mature, they are going to grow more together than Hermione and Ron. I am not really into relationships and would be perfectly happy for either pair to get together as long as they are happy together.

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Solitaire - Dec 19, 2004 7:51 pm (#60 of 1858)

I agree, Choices. In truth, I am far more worried about whether they will survive the war than I am about whom they will date or marry! As close as the three of them are, I think it also likely that they may just remain close as friends and not find their "partners" in each other.

If the war is fought and won by "the good guys"--and our trio and the DA kids manage to survive--they may not feel the need to rush into marriage at the tender ages of seventeen or eighteen. They may instead take the option to relax a bit, travel, explore their career options, or--in the case of Ron and Harry--play a bit of professional Quidditch. Frankly, that's what I'm hoping to see ... a time of peace where they can all stop and breathe freely for a while.

Solitaire

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Sir Tornado - Dec 20, 2004 7:10 am (#61 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
Hermione cannot trust Harry enough to have a working romance with him. Because Harry lies to her on aleast three occasions and as I recall he does it with very little if any shame. And it is a fact you can't fully trust who you know lies to you. On to repect or the lack thereof: Harry does not repect Hermione that much, cause if you lie to someone and you don't feel bad about it you really don't repect them. P.S. Incase you can't tell I'm a Ron and Hermione shipper. -- Jennifer Anderson

Very well Jenifer, lets see now...

Hermione cannot trust Harry enough to have a working romance with him. Because Harry lies to her on aleast three occasions and as I recall he does it with very little if any shame. And it is a fact you can't fully trust who you know lies to you. [underlines mine]

I don't agree with the underlined part. The truth is, that Harry "can't look Hermione in the eye when he lies to her". It means that he feels guilty about it, and hence ashamed. And as far as the argument that Hermione doesn't trust Harry goes... I think you are mistaken when you say that, mainly because Hermione does trust Harry. She was one of the few who believed in Harry after the Goblet of Fire incidence and also believed Harry's story about Voldemort returning. Would she have had she not trusted Harry? Besides, Hermione doesn't know that Harry has lied to her, so that won't change her perspective of him.

On to repect or the lack thereof: Harry does not repect Hermione that much, cause if you lie to someone and you don't feel bad about it you really don't repect them.

I again disagree. Harry certainly respects Hermione.

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Choices - Dec 20, 2004 10:12 am (#62 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well said Solitaire, well said. I too wish peace for the Wizard World and happiness for all.

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The One - Dec 20, 2004 12:40 pm (#63 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
Solitare

Frankly, as an adult, I don't think much about their love lives. I think they all have way too much on their plates to be aimed in that direction very often.

This is of course the sensible taking on the 'shipping wars. I think that the reason quite a few people nevertheless is engaged in it is that romantic relationships is something we all can relate to, as opposed to the magic that is going on inthe WW. Many of us does automatically interpret romantic feelings and sexual desire into the actins of the characters, and to be frank, JKR does put in stuff that makes it natural to interpret the kids in this ways, as Ron's reactions to Hermiones contact with Viktor Krum.

The facinating thing about the shipping war is that to me and some others the Harry/Hermione relationship is obviously going to happen, while the Ron/Hermione relationship seems very unlikely indeed. Others will disagree very strongly to this. The point is not who, if any, will turn out to be right, but the very fact that people percive the characters in the books so differently and read these aspects of the text so very differently.

When that is said, I sense a closeness between Harry and Hermione that I see nowhere else in the book. They respect each other and trust each other in a very special way. As people have pointed out, it is not difficult to find examples of incidents that seem to contradict this, but nevertheless that is my impresion, the feeling I get when I read the books.

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Jennifer Anderson - Dec 20, 2004 3:57 pm (#64 of 1858)

Actually Sir Tornado Hermione most certainly does know that Harry has lied to her before. She knows that he lied about being almost finish working out the egg clue, because he felt had to go her for help, notice it wasn't because felt bad it, but because he needed HELP! She has most likely figured out that Harry lied to her about Occlumency, cause what we know she knows it doesn't take more than two brain cells to rub together to figure that out. And besides she also kept badgering him about Occlumency after he had lied to her it, not continually but enough to guess she didn't believe him on the subject. And he wasn't really ashamed about lying about Occlumency and since that is the most recent lie Harry told Hermione it is the most important when measuring guilt level. Because the more the easier it gets. And Sir Tornado when I said: "And it is a fact you can't fully trust someone who you know lies to you," the key word was fully, meaning she can only trust him to a point. So she has to sort out what he would and wouldn't lie about. So in a romantic thats just not good. And when I said "if you lie to someone and you don't feel bad about it you really don't repect them." You didn't say anything to contradict me, other than " I again disagree. Harry certainly respects Hermione" which doesn't prove anything. Because a person may repect certain attributes and aspects in the person, but if that person lies to the other person. They don't repect the person. Because lying is one of the rudest thing you can do. Its rudeness level is right up there with murdering someone, cheating on your spouse, beating the snot out of them, bearing false witness against them, and gossiping about them all these are very rude. And it doesn't matter what you say to state to say that I'm wrong about it unkind to lie to someone because it is what it is and nothing you or anyone else says will change that you can rationalize it all you want. My apologies if you are offended by my blutness.

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The One - Dec 20, 2004 4:27 pm (#65 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
Jennifer

I think you are speking very much in absoluttes here. Fact is, everyone has things they do not want to tell anyone, not even their closest, everyone needs to learn trust. People do not always open up easily, not even not those they love. It is a well known fact that if a man asks his wife what is wrong, and she answers "Nothing!", then he real is in trouble.

After 11 years with the Dursleys Harry is a very introvert person, he does not fully confine in anyone. But we see in the books a develeopment, as the books progress he find it more and more difficult to hide things from Hermione. At the same time his experiences get darker and darker, the things that bothers him get more and more difficult to speak about. He is learnig to share his problems with others, at the same time he also still very much a looner. In his present state he will lie to anyone, does that mean he cannot have a serious girl friend at all?

Harry is a boy filled with love, and still if he does get a romantic relationship it will be a difficult one. It will not be one kiss, and then every problem is solved.

I belive that Harry and Hermione are destined to be the big romance in the story, and I belive that their love is a very important part of the resolution of the struggle against evil. I also belive that despite their problems they have a beutiful friendship that is a strong fundation for this realtionship.

I amy be proven wrong in this of course, but I am fully convinced that simply saying: "In this situation he hides informsation from her, in this situation he lies, this cannot be true love" is to simplistic.

Note that what I am saying is not that lying to your partner is OK, I am saying that real life people are far from perfect, and the same goes for the characters in Harry Potter.

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Jennifer Anderson - Dec 20, 2004 5:15 pm (#66 of 1858)

The One you said: "Fact is, everyone has things they do not want to tell anyone, not even their closest" but would you consider that good excuse for lying over in a way trivial matters to those that are most important to you? And there is a big difference between lying and saying I don't want to talk about it or avoiding talking about the subject.

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The One - Dec 20, 2004 5:43 pm (#67 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
I am saying that it is realistic behaviour for a boy with Harry's experiences.

Whatever it comes to with the Harry/Hermione relation, Hermione is one of the few people Harry loves the most. He loves her dearly, there is no doubt about that. He admirse here and is proud of her. Still he does not always confine in her, still he sometimes lies to her when he should not. He is far from perfect, and Hermione is far from perfect. Their communication is not perfect. Still they love each other dearly (as friends), and their friendship is developing. The question is how fare it will develop.
As Viktor's experience with Hermione, and Cho's experience with Harry shows, being a girl/boy friends that is more important to Harry/Hermione than Hermione/Harry is, is no easy task. Such a girl/boy may of course exist, but as said before, discarding the bound between Harry and Hermione because Harry sometimes want to hide things from Hermione is to simple.

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Jennifer Anderson - Dec 20, 2004 6:10 pm (#68 of 1858)

The One you're only making excuses for Harry. And they sound like those excuses girlfriends make for not so great boyfriends. So your point is?

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The One - Dec 20, 2004 6:32 pm (#69 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
Do you believe that Ron and Harry loves each other as brothers? Still Ron was a prat in GoF, and I think their friendship are still a bit strained in OotP. I even expect more problems to arise in the HBP. But I do expect their friendship to prevail in the end.

Stories is all about overcoming problems, Ron and Harry will struggle to overcome theirs, and Harry and Hermione will struggle to overcome theirs

What exacatly is your point? Hermione is immensly dedicated and loyal to Harry. Are you saying that she is wasting her energy on a person not worthy of her friendship?

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Jennifer Anderson - Dec 20, 2004 6:41 pm (#70 of 1858)

No. I'm saying that I've seen is no convincing evidence for a romance between Harry and Hermione.

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rambkowalczyk - Dec 21, 2004 7:45 am (#71 of 1858)

The two example of lies given by Jennifer that Harry told to Hermione are not in my opinion major ones.

No longer going to Occlumency. This lie had a twofold purpose. One was to protect Professor Snape. He already in a major way violated Snape's privacy by looking into the pensieve. He knew there was no way he could tell Hermione Snape discontinued it with out accidentally saying something he shouldn't. The second reason was that Harry was rightly ashamed of his actions and felt no need to talk about it. This particular incident had nothing to do with Hermione therefore it should not affect any future ship.

Not telling Hermione about not figuring the egg's secret. Harry had a sense of honor. If he told her he hadn't figured it out she would be compelled to help him. This was not the kind of help he felt he could accept as he felt it was his obligation to figure out the egg's secret. Once he figured out the secret, it did not bother him to ask for help on how to stay alive under water.

If there is to be a future Harry/Hermione ship, these lies are insignificant.

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The One - Dec 21, 2004 8:13 am (#72 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
I think that in both cases he feels ashamed, either of himself or his father, and don't want to speak about it.

In the Snape case he was ashamed of his father, and did not want to tell anyone. He might also fear Hermione's reactions to violating Snape's privacy.

In the GoF case he did not know ehat to do, but to follow Cederics advise, but he did not want to do that. He probably did not want to tell Hermione or anyone else why he did not want to do that. Hence he got stuck, he knew what to do but did not want to do it, he had no other ideas and he was unable to ask for help. In both cases his inability to open up and trust the people around him created problems for himself.

Harry needs to learn to trust the people around him. The question is: Is these problems the result of Hermione's personality, is there sides with Hermione that make him less prone to open up to her than to others? In that case he is better of with another girlfriend. Or is these problems a result of Harry's personality, in this case Harry needs to learn trust. In my reading it is the last issu that is the problem. Hermione is the one that Harry trusts the most, despite her obvious limitations in some aspects, and part of the solution to Harry's problems is to develop the relationship with Hermione further.

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Jennifer Anderson - Dec 21, 2004 1:16 pm (#73 of 1858)

That not the point. It not why he lied to her its the fact that he lied to her. Thats the important fact.

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The One - Dec 21, 2004 1:59 pm (#74 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
That not the point. It not why he lied to her its the fact that he lied to her. Thats the important fact

This is where I think you are mistaken.

The world is not that simple.

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ema fewett - Dec 21, 2004 2:10 pm (#75 of 1858)

I am a Ron/Hermione shipper but I will be happy no matter who the three characters end up with as long as they're happy and none of them die because all three have really genuine personalities that I'm sure we all can identify with.

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 21, 2004 3:56 pm (#76 of 1858)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
If a requirement of love was that you could never tell a lie to your mate then there would be no love in the world. Love is a human emotion and humans are imperfect. We do the best we can and hope that it is good enough. If any of the "ships" are going to work then they must be able to overlook the imperfections in each other.

Mikie

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Ann - Dec 21, 2004 4:09 pm (#77 of 1858)

I don't usually post here, but I've just had an idea, and I'm afraid if I post it anywhere else I'll get attacked for 'shipping. I haven't read all of this thread and its predecessors, but I've done several searches, and I don't think one really obvious pair has been suggested seriously. (I turned up two mentions, both amidst others, and not argued.)

What about Hermione/Neville? I think it is pretty clear that he is quite taken with her, and has been for a long, long time. She has always been kind to him--helping him in potions, and taking care of the curses Malfoy throws at him already in PS/SS. In GoF, Neville asks her to the Yule Ball at the same time that Ron is asking Fleur and Harry is asking Cho, their crushes. And in OotP, when they meet Mrs. Longbottom, she tells Hermione (who is rather shocked to be recognized) that Neville has told her all about Hermione, and how she has got him out of so many sticky situations. And at the battle at the DoM, Neville insists on carrying her until he can leave her safely with the others.

They are really quite well suited to each other, both by nature rather rule-bound and oddly insecure. Both considerate and thoughtful, with a good deal of psychological insight. They are the only students who really appreciate subtlety. Neville has always been extraordinarily brave, particularly morally brave, which Hermione would appreciate; he's becoming more competent, and would be completely so if he only had the confidence that a relationship with someone like Hermione would give him. I think he is considerably more mature and thoughtful than the other boys in their year, and I can see Hermione appreciating his sensitivity.

In short, I think Hermione is going to date Ron (obviously), and possibly Harry; but I bet she'll end up with Neville, probably to her own surprise. And he will be very, very happy about it.

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 21, 2004 5:16 pm (#78 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Thank-you Ann for a very well-thought-out N/Hr post.

I am a R/Hr 'shipper myself, but I have always held that unless Ron began to excel at something other than comic relief, the relationship was doomed. I don't see a high-achiever like Hermione being all that happy with a clueless mediocre class clown like Ron Weasley. So maybe she and Neville will come together on the rebound.

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SarcasticGinny - Dec 21, 2004 8:19 pm (#79 of 1858)

I've been shippingfor R/H because the tension is there, and no it is not always positive attention they give each other, but as an eighth grade teacher, it gives me a huge laugh to see kids bickering, competing, teasing, and doing backwards, immature flirting and think, "Yeah they like each other. I wonder when HE will figure it out!" (No offense, but in most of the cases, the boy in question is the last to know!) I don't know, I think its cute.

Really, though, when push comes to shove, I am not so much a R/H shipper as I am an anti H/H. The H/H may as well stand for Hero/Heroine. How thoroughly unoriginal! Yawn.

Interesting, Ann, about the N/H ship. I never thought of them together at all until OOTP, namely because the "new Neville" and his work ethic sounds like it is taking everyone in the DA by surprise, including Neville. He masters something secondly only to Hermione, doesn't he? (I need my book!) Anyhow, it seems to me that Neville with his new attitude, new wand, and a little bit of self confidence could be the type Hermione needs. Who knows??

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Choices - Dec 21, 2004 8:22 pm (#80 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
That is an interesting combination. I just don't think I see Hermione with someone as "timid" as Neville, althought he could come into his own in the next books. I think getting his own wand, not his father's hand-me-down wand, will make a lot of difference in his magical ability and he could really come on strong because of it. We will just have to wait and see. Hermione being the "brightest witch of her age" makes me want to pair her with a strong, really bright wizard. Maybe Neville could turn out to be just that when he gets his new wand and more confidence.

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Sir Tornado - Dec 21, 2004 9:30 pm (#81 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
He masters something secondly only to Hermione, doesn't he? -- SarcasticGinny

Yes, it is the shield charm that Neville masters only next to Hermione, and it is worth noting that Harry had some problems with that charm when he learnt it for the Triwizard tournament!

Neville/Hermione? Atleast I won't be disappointed! Anything but R/Hr would be fine for me! Provided we don't have a H/G ship that is...

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 21, 2004 10:05 pm (#82 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
SarcasticGinny,

You sound like a prime candidate to become a Harry/Pansy 'shipper. Very Happy

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Solitaire - Dec 21, 2004 10:13 pm (#83 of 1858)

I don't really care who anyone ends up with, as long as they all come out safely in the end. Like SarcasticGinny, I teach junior high, and I see many of my own kids in the silliness and bickering in the books. I certainly seem to have at least one Hermione in every year! LOL

I had to giggle at the movie when Hermione slapped Harry's hand as he reached for the time turner when she was preparing to use it. It was a completely familiar gesture I've seen many times. I have also seen the "battling Bickersons" in more than one class (a la Ron & Hermione) turn out to be couples--although as a rule they tend to be very short-lived pairs.

I had never thought about a Hermione/Neville pairing, but I do see promise in it, given the points Ann brings out. It will be interesting to see who Harry's new romantic interest turns out to be.

Solitaire

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SarcasticGinny - Dec 21, 2004 10:17 pm (#84 of 1858)

LOL, Marcus, going after anyone who's not defined on who Harry should be with, eh? :-)

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 21, 2004 11:25 pm (#85 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
SarcasticGinny - LOL, Marcus, going after anyone who's not defined on who Harry should be with, eh? :-)

No, just those who are suspicious of obvious answers. :-)

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Sir Tornado - Dec 22, 2004 12:29 am (#86 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
Prefect Marcus, we should find out if H/P ship can survive deep waters in about six months time. If Pansy doesn't reform in HbP... would you consider H/P ship sunk? Or do you think there is a chance for Pansy to reform in Bk7 and sail with Harry?

I just love this colour!

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OkieAngel - Dec 22, 2004 1:17 am (#87 of 1858)

Harry and Pansy-the-Pug-Faced-One?? What next, Hermione and Draco-the-Ferret??

Not that I have any other brilliant insights into their adolesent affairs, but Harry and Pansy just doesn't seem right. Besides, I think "Pansy" is too close to "Petunia" for Harry's comfort, and no, before you bring it up, I'm not disregarding "Lily." Wondering if the next new female character will be named after flora or fauna, perhaps Chrys, for chrysanthemum??

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wickedweasley - Dec 22, 2004 3:03 am (#88 of 1858)

Well prior to my putting any deep thought into ships my initial reaction was R/HR and H/L or H/G it just seemed that Ron and Hermione had the most obvious chemistry not thinking long term here, I am thinking normal teenage romances on several occaisions their interactions just seemed to pour of the pages with chemistry. Will try and look up specifics later but this was as I say my initial impression. Harry I had hardly considered a ship for although I did find his connection with Luna fascinating. I think many people judge Luna by her quirkyness and have trouble seeing past that.

Having said that I do quite like the idea of Nevile/Hermione too I guess I am just a floating shipper...

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Sir Tornado - Dec 22, 2004 3:16 am (#89 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
What next, Hermione and Draco-the-Ferret?? -- Okieangel

Okieangel, actually, Draco/Hermione ship used to be quite popular among fans until JKR shot it down in an interview. I was never a D/Hr shipper, but I think there is a complete site dedicated to that 'ship!

Having said that I do quite like the idea of Nevile/Hermione too I guess I am just a floating shipper... -- wickedweasley

wickedweasley, any chance of floating towards H/Hr? Had to try that, don't I?

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 22, 2004 9:06 am (#90 of 1858)

Prefect Marcus, we should find out if H/P ship can survive deep waters in about six months time. If Pansy doesn't reform in HbP... would you consider H/P ship sunk? Or do you think there is a chance for Pansy to reform in Bk7 and sail with Harry?-- Sir Tornado

I wouldn't presume to answer for my "partner-in-crime," as it were, but I believe Marcus has stated that indeed the ball has to get rolling in HBP. There may be some wiggle room as to just how much it needs to get rolling to leave time and space in Book 7 for a plausible relationship/uniting of the houses.

Personally, I believe too that Pansy would have to show us something in HPB and something beyond ambiguous looks or consipicuous absences. If she doesn't make some kind of affirmative progress in the book, then the ship may be sunk. "Affirmative progress" could include anything from showing a changed attitude or some purposeful distance from Draco and Co. throughout the book to her unexepectedly taking part in whatever the exciting climax of HBP is going to be. But, it has to be something.

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KWeldon - Dec 22, 2004 9:23 am (#91 of 1858)

As a deckhand on the H/P ship, I'd like to add my two knuts and say that I agree with Loopy. There should be something from her. I don't think the romance needs to begin in Book 6 necessarily, but she has to at least begin reformation of some sort.

Of course, come July 17 I may change my opinion. Wink

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Hermy-own - Dec 22, 2004 10:27 am (#92 of 1858)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
I agree with Loopy, too. And I will not be disheartened if nothing romantic develops between Harry and Pansy.

KWeldon, if on the 17th I have reason to change my opinion, there's no doubt I will be re-reading the book, scouring every page for any shred of evidence that may keep this 'ship afloat. For me, this theory is simply too good to go to waste.

Hermy.

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Choices - Dec 22, 2004 10:48 am (#93 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I finished book 2 last night (my 11th reading) and something just hit me over the head at the end. See what you think----Harry and Hermione are talking and then this is the last line of the book....."And together they walked back through the gateway to the Muggle world." WOW, it hit me....what if the end of book 7 is something like that? Harry and Hermione are together and they leave the Wizarding World after defeating Voldemort and losing many of their loved ones and friends in the war, and live out their lives in the Muggle world. After all, they do, more or less, both come from the Muggle world even though they are wizards, and after learning much and experiencing many interesting adventures in the Wizard World, they leave it to settle down and live normal lives surrounded by Muggles. Any thoughts......???

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KWeldon - Dec 22, 2004 10:52 am (#94 of 1858)

KWeldon, if on the 17th I have reason to change my opinion, there's no doubt I will be re-reading the book, scouring every page for any shred of evidence that may keep this 'ship afloat. For me, this theory is simply too good to go to waste.

Hermy,

Amen, sister, especially about it being too good of a theory. And let me state on record that I don't always pick up JKR's hints on first read. Or second.

KWeldon

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KWeldon - Dec 12, 2004 8:48 am (#95 of 1858)

Choices,

IMHO, they are wizards and the WW is normal to them. The Muggle world is not, regardless that they were raised to the age of 11 there. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just that it would be incredibly sad that two talented wizards would subject themselves to a life of mediocrity. Sure, Harry can ride off into the sunset with whomever, but why not into the sunset in the WW?

KWeldon

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Sir Tornado - Dec 22, 2004 10:58 am (#96 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
Choices, I really don't need to say this, but I agree with you!

And, I really can't fathom what this thread will be like come 17th July, add 2-3 more days for stragglers! How many ships would have sunk and how many would be afloat? Only JKR and her editors know right now!

205 days and countdown on!

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Choices - Dec 22, 2004 11:17 am (#97 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
This is not set in stone for me - just a thought that occurred to me. It just seems possible that the Wizard World might hold too many painful memories, especially for Harry. I do see them going back to visit often and keeping in touch with those friends who survived the war.

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 22, 2004 11:50 am (#98 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
I have stated many times that there needs to be a thawing on Pansy's part in HBP if this 'ship is ever to float. I rather suspect that Book #7 is going to be very stressful for Harry. He isn't going to have the time to go all the way from antipathy to love in one book.

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Solitaire - Dec 22, 2004 4:17 pm (#99 of 1858)

May I float another possibility? Suppose, for example, that Madame Bones is appointed the new Minister of Magic--Is this a possibility? She might actually believe Harry has some worthwhile information to offer and want to meet with him to learn what he saw and heard in the graveyard--something Fudge neglected to do.

If Madame Bones finds Harry a valuable asset and consults with him on more than one occasion, is there a possibility that he could be thrown together with Susan? We already know that Susan is a member of the DA and one of those who came to Harry's aid on the train. Could she be a possible 'ship in the future? I'm not saying his "one and only"--I still think they are a bit young for that--just perhaps a detour? Okay, no dungbombs, please ... it was just a thought. Smile

Solitaire

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 22, 2004 4:36 pm (#100 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Dec 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Susan Bones is a possibility, but I have my doubts. She was sorted in book one, then promptly disappeared until book five. I just don't see Rowling, who so enjoys being clever, totally ignoring his eventual 'ship for so long. Instead, I would expect Rowling to hide her in plain sight, and then laugh at our stupidity for not noticing.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 101 to 150)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:33 am

Tomoé - Dec 22, 2004 6:29 pm (#101 of 1858)
Back in business
So, what's your list of possible candidates Marcus? Anyone beside Pansy?

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Sir Tornado - Dec 22, 2004 8:57 pm (#102 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
I think Marcus rather likes H/Hr ship, but isn't a H/Hr shipper because he sees more evidence for R/Hr ship, right Marcus?

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KWeldon - Dec 22, 2004 10:06 pm (#103 of 1858)

Solitaire,

I think that's Susan Potter's theory exactly.

KWeldon

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Sir Tornado - Dec 22, 2004 11:12 pm (#104 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
Solitaire, since you are leaning towards Harry/Susan 'Ship, you might find the Post#1196 rather intresting I dare say!

In that post, Susan Potter has given some good evidence for Harry/Susan ship! As a H/Hr 'shipper, it is my job to try to discount other 'ships' evidence, but I think evidence for Harry/Susan 'ship as given by Susan Potter is quite good!
Not good enough though, IMO atleast

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 23, 2004 12:53 am (#105 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Dec 22, 2004 11:55 pm
Sir Tornado - I think Marcus rather likes H/Hr ship, but isn't a H/Hr shipper because he sees more evidence for R/Hr ship, right Marcus?

Exactly right. I've written extensively about it elsewhere, but basically it is a literary/dramatic principle that the alpha male and the alpha female end up together. Harry is the alpha male. It is obvious that Hermione is the current alpha female, but it is also obvious that she is intended for Ron. So we have to look elsewhere for the eventual alpha female, someone potentially stronger even than Hermione.

So who are the potential alpha females? They have to have strong personalities. The list as I see it includes Ginny, Pansy, Luna, Angelina, and Fleur. If you include the admittedly more speculative requirement that Harry's future partner is hiding in plain sight for as long as possible, that leaves Ginny and Pansy. And be honest now, which of those two is the most unlikely on the surface of it? Ginny's feelings for Harry has been front and center for four of the five books so far. That isn't very hidden, is it? So guess who it leaves?

The other option is that Rowling pulls a Tolkien, and leaves her hero a batchelor.

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Tomoé - Dec 23, 2004 5:13 am (#106 of 1858)

Back in business
Ginny, Pansy, Luna, Angelina, and Fleur as potential alpha females? That works for me. I'm not sure for Fleur, she came quite late in the series and she get only a line in OoP.

There still for a possibility of a wild card, a relatively unnoticable girl that become strong leader in time of crisis.

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Steve Newton - Dec 23, 2004 6:57 am (#107 of 1858)

Librarian
I would put Tonks into the mix.

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Choices - Dec 23, 2004 11:15 am (#108 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Tonks is way too old for Harry - these are supposedly "childrens books", so it should be someone who is a comtemporary of Harry. Best bets are Hermione or Ginny. Harry loves the Weasleys and they love him and marrying Ginny would bring him into the Weasley fold. If it's not Hermione, then I'd like to see him team up with Ginny.

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 23, 2004 11:20 am (#109 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Dec 23, 2004 10:22 am
Steve Newton - I would put Tonks into the mix.

As a strong female, yes. So the list of potential alpha females is Ginny, Pansy, Luna, Angelina, Fleur, and Tonks.

I doubt Tonks, though. She is at least six years older than Harry (Harry had three more years of Hogwarts + her three years of Auror training), and she is going to be one busy auror now that the war is offically joined.

I agree that Fleur is unlikely. Her age is against her. Plus she is currently seeing somebody much more her...uh...'style'.

Angelina is gone. Rowling hasn't given us any reason for her to appear in Harry's life again. Fleur, at least, is seeing Harry's best friend's brother. There is a good chance their paths will cross again.

Luna is just...well...too loony. I truly do love her. She has this air of quiet dignity about her that is very appealing. She is almost wise beyond her years. But Harry doesn't need the grief a H/L 'ship will bring.

So again, I think it comes down to Ginny and Pansy. Ginny is just too obvious. I would expect Rowling to be more sneaky than that. And if you examine all the subtle 'coincidences' involving Pansy, you find an extremely likely candidate for a stealth 'ship.

Let's add one more 'coincidence' for fun. Rowling has put the kabosh on several speculative 'ships. She has stated (more than once, I believe) that Draco/Hermione is sunk before launching. She also torpedoed the Neville/Luna one. Notice she hasn't even mentioned Harry/Pansy? If Draco/Hermione is so outlandish that it merits a definitive negitive; why not put down Harry/Pansy, the supposed opposite side of the same coin? That should be an easy one to kill. It would be a bone of solid information she could throw out to a fandom that is eager for the least little crumb.

But she hasn't. You don't suppose.....?

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Steve Newton - Dec 23, 2004 11:26 am (#110 of 1858)

Librarian
I don't think that 6 years is way older. Tonks probable frontline fighting would be very appealing to Harry.

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scoop2172000 - Dec 23, 2004 11:45 am (#111 of 1858)

I see Tonks more as a mentor to Harry, a sort of older-sister figure, much like Sirius had been a combination of friend and father-figure and Molly has become a maternal figure.

Having had no real family, Harry looks to friends to fill the family void in his life.

My $.02 worth on Ginny being a sister figure to Harry, well I think that's going to change. For the record, I am a H/G and R/Hr 'shipper. Then again, I had been a Neville/Luna 'shipper until Jo blew that out of the water.

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 23, 2004 1:44 pm (#112 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Steve Newton - Tonks probable frontline fighting would be very appealing to Harry.

That is the key point. True, her age is a problem, but certainly not insurmountable. The real sticking point is the fact that Tonks has a very serious job to do. As an auror, she is going to be working long hours on the front lines. Just when are she and Harry supposed to come together for any real length of time? In spite of Harry's talent, I don't see him on the front lines for extended periods.

She might get appointed HBP DADA teacher since the Ministry, the Board, and the parents will want a competent teacher in the position. However, she has the fact that she is a familiar figure against her. And do you think Rowling, an ex-teacher, would be in any great hurry to write a story about a teacher/student romance? Not likely.

So I can't foresee any hope for a Harry/Tonks 'ship. Sorry.

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Steve Newton - Dec 23, 2004 1:47 pm (#113 of 1858)

Librarian
Marcus, you really can't stand that its not Pansy, can you?

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 23, 2004 2:37 pm (#114 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Dec 23, 2004 1:47 pm
Steve Newton - Marcus, you really can't stand that its not Pansy, can you?

Well, I would not say that. I was a Harry/Hermione 'shipper clear up until OoP. I made all kinds of excuses to support that over Ron/Hermione. Finally OoP proved too much.

Sooner or later you have to be honest with yourself. "This above all: to thine ownself be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man."

So I call them as I see them. I've been wrong before, and I will be wrong in the future. But I don't think I'm wrong here. There are just too many things that fall into place with a Harry/Pansy 'ship.

Trust me, I have tried very hard to sink Harry/Pansy. The only -- and I do mean ONLY -- serious thing standing between them is Pansy's attitude. Change that, and Pansy easily becomes the strongest female around. Her only real competition is Ginny.

If we see a thaw in Pansy during HBP, then I think Harry/Pansy will be inevitible. If there is no thaw, then the HMS Harry/Pansy will remain forever locked in the ice. Only a minor miracle would free her -- and Voldemort has outlawed miracles. :-) (Ten points to who gets the reference!)

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 23, 2004 3:08 pm (#115 of 1858)

I would again throw in my strong doubts about Tonks. She keeps getting bandied about as a potential love interest which is understandable as she is a superb character. But, our most conservative estimate is that she is 20 at the time Harry is 15. To put it bluntly, she's a woman and Harry is a boy. By the time the series ends, Harry will be 17 to her 22. With all apologies to the 17 year-old contingent out there, she will still be a woman and he will still be very much a boy. It's not so much the age difference as the maturity/life experience difference. Barring some sort of explanation that makes us wrong about Tonks' age, I can't see JKR simply ignoring it and developing a relationship between Harry and Tonks.

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Weeny Owl - Dec 23, 2004 3:47 pm (#116 of 1858)

If Draco/Hermione is so outlandish that it merits a definitive negitive; why not put down Harry/Pansy, the supposed opposite side of the same coin? That should be an easy one to kill. It would be a bone of solid information she could throw out to a fandom that is eager for the least little crumb. L

Regardless of how I feel about Harry and Pansy together, I think JKR just got fed up with so many people mistaking Tom Felton for Draco Malfoy. She said something about finally answering a question Ms. Radcliffe had about Draco and Hermione.

There aren't as many proponents for Harry and Pansy, and since we really don't have an actress who defines Pansy for us, there is no confusion with the character and the young lady playing the character. As cute as Tom Felton might be to girls (or Jason Isaacs or Alan Rickman or anyone else), my skin crawls when I read Draco in the books yet I can look at Tom Felton and think he's a cute kid.

It just sounded to me like JKR was fed up with the whole "bad boy as a deep down good guy instead of how he's actually written" thing.

I have a friend who keeps telling me how sexy and wonderful Lucius Malfoy is with his long blond hair and his cane. I keep asking her where in the books it mentions a cane or how long Lucius Malfoy's hair is and she just looks at me as if I'm reading another series entirely.

The only way I'll believe it will ever be Harry and Pansy is when JKR flat-out states it either in an interview or in the books, but I will say that while I haven't bought a ticket to be on that ship and I'm not even standing in line, I am hovering near the ticket booth just in case.

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 23, 2004 4:09 pm (#117 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Dec 23, 2004 3:10 pm
Weeny Owl - I have a friend who keeps telling me how sexy and wonderful Lucius Malfoy is with his long blond hair and his cane. I keep asking her where in the books it mentions a cane or how long Lucius Malfoy's hair is and she just looks at me as if I'm reading another series entirely.

We are in agreement on this. Of course, what was really scary was to read comments of women before the first movie was even cast fantasizing about Snape. I remember one gushing on about how she wanted to run her fingers through his greasy hair. *shudders in horror*

Of course, it might have been Gina, so I should be careful. :-)

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Choices - Dec 23, 2004 5:55 pm (#118 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think Tonks is probably 21 to Harry's 15. She probably finished Hogwarts at 17, three years of Auror training and I think she has been an Auror for a year.....21.

I must have missed something. We hardly know anything about Pansy except she is a Slytherin and hangs around with Draco and his "boys". She is mean and nasty, with a face like a pug, and she sucks up to Draco big time. How in the world is she someone Harry would look at twice? Sorry, but I just can't see it.

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Tomoé - Dec 23, 2004 6:20 pm (#119 of 1858)

Back in business
The H/P ship need Pansy to do a James Potter, that's how it have to start.

I'm still considering Hannah Abbott, she have at least a line in every books and didn't do anything worth mentioning. Why Hannah, any other character would have do the trick? Harry's ship? Headgirl? War causality?

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 23, 2004 8:04 pm (#120 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Dec 23, 2004 7:06 pm
In point of fact, Choices, we know a great deal about Pansy, far more than we know about Lavendar and Parvati, in fact.

For instance, we know she is the only Slytherin Girl who says a word. Of the Slytherin boys, only Draco and Marcus Flint have lines -- and Marcus only has a few.

We know she can be compassionate, especially of other's physical distress. There is good reason to think that this extended even to Hermione at one point.

We know that she among all the Slytherin girls is allowed to show a distinct feminine side. Harry doesn't react negatively to it, like he does to faux feminimity in others. In fact Harry doesn't react negatively to her at all, except one very mild exception. He is strictly neutral towards her.

We know of no case when she is accused of abusing her authority, even when given carte blanche to lord over the other students.

If you wish to study these in detail, I suggest you read the "Harry's 'ship will reunite the Houses" thread.

Now I caution you. No H/P 'shipper I know claims they like each other, at this time. Don't go looking through the books seeking signs that one or the other is secretly attracted to each other, because they aren't. The whole cruix of this 'ship is that Rowling seems to be setting the stage for it to happen.

To give a quick example, why was Pansy missing from the showdown in Umbridge's office when it makes perfect sense that she be there? We are not suggesting Pansy likes Harry so she avoided the office. Instead, we are suggesting that Rowling didn't want her there because (a)Pansy was already starting to thaw after the Quibbler article and Rowling didn't want to give it away, and/or (b)Pansy would have done something to make it difficult for Harry to forgive her.

That is what we mean by "setting the stage".

This 'ship is made up of curious 'coincidences' that in and of themselves mean little, but when added up they seem to suggest Rowling is up to something.

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Ann - Dec 23, 2004 9:42 pm (#121 of 1858)

Marcus, I don't quite understand why you think Pansy is a strong character. Just because she talks? It's hard for me to imagine Draco dating a girl with much of a mind of her own--I'd think he'd need constant fawning.

But I can see two points in favor of your hypothesis: one is the movie casting. I've noted that the young woman cast as Pansy does not have a face like a pug, which may mean that Harry's viewpoint here has been a bit distorted.

Another is that having Pansy change from Draco to Harry does rather set the stage dramatically for a confrontation that has a little more depth than mutually insulting each other's mothers.

But of course the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world.

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 24, 2004 12:34 am (#122 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Ann - Marcus, I don't quite understand why you think Pansy is a strong character.

Do you think Draco would have be seen with a loser?

She was made prefect.

She led the Slytherins in "Weasley is our king".

She is the recognized leader of her group of Slytherin girls.

She resisted the temptation to lord over her fellow students first as a prefect, later as a member of the Inquisitorial Squad. This in spite of her Slytherin peers having little or no restraint.

She is not afraid of speaking her mind. She is no shrinking violet.

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Solitaire - Dec 24, 2004 2:58 am (#123 of 1858)

I'm not really pro any particular 'ship--in fact, I don't really know why I keep coming back to this thread, since until recently I'd never given 'ships a thought.

I do think the Tonks thing is a bit "out there" for right now. Five or six years isn't much of an age difference once one arrives in his or her early to mid thirties, but I do think it is significant when one is 16.

I'm of two minds with Harry. I can see him remaining a bachelor for a while and just enjoying blessed freedom and the command of his own time and money--assuming he survives the war. Then again, I can also see him wanting to assume his place in a loving family after so many years of being more or less alone. Until we know the outcome of things, however, I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess on his ultimate partner. The experiences he is going to face between now and the end of book 7 will doubtlessly change how he views life--and people--so the choice he makes today might not be the choice he would make in two or even five years. I still think it's too early to tell.

Solitaire

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Steve Newton - Dec 24, 2004 7:27 am (#124 of 1858)

Librarian
Marcus asks "why was Pansy missing from the showdown in Umbridge's office when it makes perfect sense that she be there?"

Maybe she was off with Goyle. Greg wasn't there either.

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Solitaire - Dec 24, 2004 9:06 am (#125 of 1858)

Perhaps Umbridge had a different task for her that night. Surely, if they were hoping to apprehend various DA members, they would have to be scattered around the castle, as the DA members do not move in a "clump."

BTW, wasn't Pansy the one who ran into the Room of Requirement that first time and grabbed the list of DA members? Marcus, are you suggesting a change of heart? Is it possible that the Parkinsons actually like Dumbledore and forbade her from further actions that would discredit him?

I think Steve may be onto something. Since both Goyle and Pansy were missing that particular night, perhaps they were working on some other top secret project for Umbridge ... or maybe they were on a secret rendezvous of their own. Could they be setting sail on their own 'ship? Now, there's a scary thought! (Sorry, Marcus, I couldn't resist!)

Solitaire

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SarcasticGinny - Dec 24, 2004 1:27 pm (#126 of 1858)

Marcus, I can't say I'm particularly sold on the Harry-Pansy thing, but I definitely admit that it's intriguing. As I said, any combination except H/H will leave me smiling (your alpha-male, alpha-female analysis was dead on). I used to think Harry would, like all of his male role models aside from his dad (Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin) would remain single, but something in JKR's attitude in recent interviews makes me think she has love for Harry in his future.

I'm keeping an open mind to Harry and Pansy, just like I have for Harry and Ginny, Harry and Luna, or Harry and Susan. Harry and Tonks, sorry, is a stretch. Even if he develops a crush, who's assuming Tonks is a cradle robber in her own right? Ditto Fleur; despite her respect for Harry, he's a "leetle boy".

I think it's going to be a girl who's at Hogwarts now...and that HBP will tell us a LOT. July can't come soon enough!!

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TomProffitt - Dec 24, 2004 2:55 pm (#127 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Jo openly states how bad she feels for what she is putting Harry through. I'm sure that in the end she'll let him find true love.

If she let's him live.

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 24, 2004 4:59 pm (#128 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Yes, SG, H/P is intriguing. It is by far the most intriguing of all the 'ships. Even Weeny Owl, one of the strongest opponent to it, admits to hanging around the ticket booth just in case it does sail.

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 24, 2004 6:45 pm (#129 of 1858)

I might suggest that anyone interested in learning more about the various positions on Marcus' theory check out the "Harry's 'Ship Uniting the Houses Thread." You'll see that there a lot of people, like me, who are convinced and have jumped on board while there are also people (Catherine, Tomoe, Weeny, Chemyst) who have their torpedo sights set squarely on this boat. I only mention this because, honestly, most of the questions in the past few posts have been discussed at length. And, deftly answered I might add. Smile

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Weeny Owl - Dec 24, 2004 9:15 pm (#130 of 1858)

I might suggest that anyone interested in learning more about the various positions on Marcus' theory check out the "Harry's 'Ship Uniting the Houses Thread." You'll see that there a lot of people, like me, who are convinced and have jumped on board while there are also people (Catherine, Tomoe, Weeny, Chemyst) who have their torpedo sights set squarely on this boat. I only mention this because, honestly, most of the questions in the past few posts have been discussed at length. And, deftly answered I might add. Smile

That's an excellent idea, Loopy. As Marcus said, I may be lurking about just in case, but as you put it, I do still have my torpedo sights set on this boat too. Trust me, for a weeny owl, it isn't easy lurking and torpedoing.

I wouldn't even give it a blip except that JKR is so sneaky she might just do it.

What I really want is for the six from the Department of Mysteries battle to all live and be happy and healthy, and if they end up with a spouse who isn't my first choice, as long as they're content, then I will have no complaints.

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The One - Dec 25, 2004 5:19 am (#131 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
It is obvious that Hermione is the current alpha female, but it is also obvious that she is intended for Ron.

This is were I think you may be mistaken, I do not find that obvious at all.

But let os not bicker over that during Christmas: Merry Christmas to everyone!

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Chemyst - Dec 25, 2004 7:56 am (#132 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
...there are also people (Catherine, Tomoe, Weeny, Chemyst) who have their torpedo sights set squarely on this boat. I only mention this because, honestly, most of the questions in the past few posts have been discussed at length. And, deftly answered I might add. Smile - Loopy Lupin.

Why, thank-you Loopy! (That was deft and not daft, right? Not a typo?)
I too urge people to visit the "Harry's 'Ship Uniting the Houses" thread. And, I too am hanging around the ticket booth because you know what they say about Location, Location, Location: I have reserved my spot on the dock for the stoat sandwich concession. And I do mean concession.

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 25, 2004 8:12 am (#133 of 1858)

Why, thank-you Loopy! (That was deft and not daft, right? Not a typo?)--- Chemyst.

Eek. I didn't make my meaning plain. I meant that the arguments against Harry/Pansy have been answered with stunning logic and excruciating analysis. ;D You can still thank me though and take what I said as a compliment because it was the superb arguments against that required hard thinking to keep this 'ship from sinking. Very Happy

Happy Christmas!!


Weeny Owl - Dec 25, 2004 8:49 am (#134 of 1858) [/b]
I have reserved my spot on the dock for the stoat sandwich concession. And I do mean concession.

If we just get Catherine and Tomoe on the dock with us, we could do a rousing business, Chemyst!

Happy holidays to all of my fellow shipping enthusiasts... at least with JKR's present to us, next year we'll have much much more to talk about.

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Choices - Dec 25, 2004 10:28 am (#135 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Happy Christmas to all! This is such a fun thread - keeping putting forth all those great "ship" proposals. I do love to read everyone's ideas about, and arguments for, their favorite pair of "shippers".

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Penny Lane. - Dec 25, 2004 11:57 am (#136 of 1858)

I'm not really a big 'shipper, but I have a few observations... Forgive me if you've heard all this before - I have free time, but not enought to read more then the last 50 or so posts on this thread.

I think that JKR has made us think that Ron likes Hermione, and perhaps Hermione has feelings for him too - but I dont' think anyone in the trio should date. In my dream world, I'd like to see Hermione with Krum, Harry with Parvati or Ginny, and Ron with ... someone else. - maybe Luna.

I have no basis for my argument, except I just don't think the trio should date each other, and I can't see any of them dating Slytherins.

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TomProffitt - Dec 25, 2004 4:19 pm (#137 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
To change 'ships in mid-stream ...

Since Jo sank the Neville/Luna 'ship because Neville wouldn't be able to handle such an unusual girl as Luna, doesn't it follow that Hermione would be more than Neville would be comfortable with? Same problem from the other end of the spectrum.

EDIT: Neville needs a relatively normal girl like Lavender or Parvati, not one of the strong independent girls like Luna, Hermione, or Ginny.

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Weeny Owl - Dec 25, 2004 4:51 pm (#138 of 1858)

Neville needs a relatively normal girl like Lavender or Parvati, not one of the strong independent girls like Luna, Hermione, or Ginny.

I was a proponent of Neville and Luna for ages because I thought they would appreciate each other's more quirky sides, but alas.

How would you see him with Susan, Tom? She has something in common with him being that they both have relatives who were attacked by Death Eaters, and Susan definitely knows something about how Neville must feel. He's good at Herbology, so maybe she could be good for him as well.

I don't really have any strong feelings on it, but I would like to see Neville happy with someone. He's one of my favorite characters, and he's such a sweetie that I just want to hug him.

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TomProffitt - Dec 26, 2004 7:18 am (#139 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
I don't have any problems with Neville/Susan other than we know less about Susan than we do Lavender and Parvati.

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The One - Dec 26, 2004 3:47 pm (#140 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
I also see Neville with Susan Bones, but I have no real information to base that one, save the fact that Susan was mentioned in Book 1, then disappeared completely in book 2-4, ann reappeared in book 5, and was mentioned several times. It was emphasied that Susan is a new girl in Harry circle by having him not know her name until the Hog Head meeting, eveen if they have shared classes for 4 years!

She is reintroduced for a reason, and hooking her up with Neville is one way to bring her closer to Harry's gang. (Even better ways to do so is to hook her up with Harry or Ron, but in my head Harry belongs to hermione and Ron to Luna...) Of course it is quite possble to let Susan play a important role without making her the girl friend of any of the boys we know.

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Choices - Dec 26, 2004 6:00 pm (#141 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I like Susan with Neville - they are both adorable and go nicely together. However, Susan is a redhead and might just fit in with a certain other redhead that we know and love. Yikes, both redheads.....what if they're related? In that case, I take back what I said about them maybe being a good pair.

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Solitaire - Dec 26, 2004 7:13 pm (#142 of 1858)

Is she a redhead in the book, or is that movie contamination, Choices? I believe she wears her hair in a long braid, but I can't remember if her hair color is given. I confess, though, I was thinking the same thing about Susan and Ron. Ron's uncles, Fabian and Gideon Prewett, and Susan's uncle, Edgar Bones, and his family were all killed by DEs, so they have that in common.

Haircolor aside, I actually like that 'ship, Choices. I know we don't know much about Susan, but she seems steady, not too bossy, and I can see her getting on well with Molly Weasley.

I think Luna is kind of sweet on Ron, but I don't really see him tuning in to her wavelength and returning her affections. I see him more with someone who is steady and even-tempered. Hermione is certainly steady, but she is a little too bossy and controlling when she and Ron interact, and I don't like the idea of Ron becoming "henpecked." I also think their relationship is a little volatile, and I think that would get old after a while.

Susan obviously had enough confidence in Harry and in her own judgment to join the DA and enough loyalty not to rat out the group to her aunt. I think she may bear watching. I hope Jo fleshes her out a bit more in Book 6.

Solitaire

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Ann - Dec 26, 2004 8:57 pm (#143 of 1858)

Tom, I don't see why Neville would find Hermione as scary as JKR has said he would probably find Luna. She's not unconventional or quirky at all--she is, in fact, everything his family would like him to be himself, which in kids often prompts love (the wish to simply be the other person). Hermione has always been rather kind and helpful and almost motherly to him. Think of the way she's helped him in potions and their first ride on the Hogwarts Express--how did they come to be together then, anyway? Looking at their interactions, it seems fairly clear to me that Neville has responded to her kindness by falling madly (and, as I suspect he thinks, hopelessly) in love with her. Look at the fight at the DoM, where, after she is knocked out, he first checks her pulse, and then, when Harry thinks they will have to leave her, Neville insists upon carrying her until he can safely leave her with the others and follow Harry to help him.

Hermione's feelings for Neville are a bit less clear--probably fairly condescending at this point. But Hermione appreciates courage, which Neville has in abundance, and as he gains in confidence and (consequently) in magical skill I can see her coming to appreciate his other good qualities. If anything happens to Ron, as I think it may, Neville is going to be a lot more able to comfort Hermione than Harry, who would need comforting at least as badly as she would.

But I think the strongest argument is that JKR is the sort of author who would value Neville's more mature, self-effacing kind of love, and reward it beyond his wildest hopes. And given that Hermione is to some extent a self portrait, perhaps she'll feel the same way.

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Sir Tornado - Dec 27, 2004 11:21 pm (#144 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
I don't see Neville 'shipping at all! Most of the Adults we meet in WW are single people! For the same reason, I don't see most of the Hogwarts students 'shipping. To put Neville with someone like Susan, with whom Neville, till date, hasn't talked on page, is a bit too much for me!

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Solitaire - Dec 28, 2004 12:09 am (#145 of 1858)

Perhaps all of the kids--including Neville--will begin talking with her more often this year, Sir T. I believe that at least a few more kids will be brought forward and developed more fully in book 6.

For the first four books we had mainly Harry, assisted and accompanied by Ron and Hermione, as the kids actively taking part in all of the big adventures and working against Voldemort and the DEs.

In OotP, Luna, Ginny, and Neville are moved forward throughout the book, and they assume what would probably have been the Twins' spot in the battle of the DoM, had they still been enrolled in Hogwarts at that time. I think that more kids will be brought forward in the coming books, and I think the six who came to Harry's rescue on the train have been set up nicely to fill that role in HBP.

If the kids are thrown together more often, in various pairs and combinations, there is every likelihood that some 'ships may develop. I'm not sure which combinations seem more likely at this point. I'm more interested in all of them simply LIVING through the books. As long as they are happy and safe, I don't really care who winds up with whom! FYI, Mugglenet's page of debunked rumors does put to rest any Neville-Luna 'ship in this book. It doesn't say anything about the next one, though!

Solitaire

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Ann - Dec 30, 2004 12:25 pm (#146 of 1858)

Sir T: "Most of the Adults we meet in WW are single people!"

We don't actually know this, do we? JKR has implied that some of the Hogwarts faculty is married; do we actually know, for example, that Tonks is single? That McGonagall is? That Dumbledore is? That Kingsley Shacklebolt is? That Umbridge is?

Harry sees all these people in their public, professional roles, as kids tend to see most of the adults in their lives. There is no reason at all to assume that most of the adults he knows don't have private lives that he knows nothing about.

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Eponine - Dec 30, 2004 12:38 pm (#147 of 1858)

I certainly hope Umbridge is single! I wouldn't wish her on anyone.

On the issue of the teachers being married...

From the Comic Relief live chat March 2001

Sheila McCleary - Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?

Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why.

I have no idea why that information would be restricted, but I'm hoping we'll find out in HBP.

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Chemyst - Dec 30, 2004 4:53 pm (#148 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Hmm. Maybe all those rings on Umbridge's stubby fingers were tokens of her 'ships that went south????

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Solitaire - Dec 31, 2004 1:51 am (#149 of 1858)

I'm with Eponine as far as Umbridge as spouse is concerned. Can you imagine being married to someone so nasty-tempered?

As for protecting the identities of the professors' spouses, that does not seem out of line to me. Can you imagine having someone like Lucius Malfoy mad at a teacher? Think what he might be willing to do in order to swing the teacher to his way of thinking about something. The board of governors said he threatened them and their families if they did not vote to unseat Dumbledore. I do not imagine he would hesitate to kidnap/torture a professor's spouse or child.

There are surely less violent reasons for keeping professors' personal information private. Would you really want Rita Skeeter spying on a professor's family? It could happen. These are just a few scenarios ...

Solitaire

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Chemyst - Dec 31, 2004 7:09 am (#150 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I'm with Eponine as far as Umbridge as spouse is concerned. - Solitaire

As am I. The rings on her stubby fingers comment was an attempt at humor.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 151 to 200)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:34 am

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 31, 2004 8:19 am (#151 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Since she had rings on her stubby fingers, I wonder if she could have had bells on her fat little toes.

Mikie

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Choices - Dec 31, 2004 11:24 am (#152 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Rings on her stubby little fingers and bells on her fat little toes, she shall wreak havoc wherever she goes. LOL The Ode to Umbridge.

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Hermy-own - Dec 31, 2004 11:43 am (#153 of 1858)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
**Dancing along to The (T)Ode to Umbridge**

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Solitaire - Dec 31, 2004 1:14 pm (#154 of 1858)

LOL Choices! Very good! I like it ...

Chemyst, I agree ... any "beaus" she ever had couldn't have stuck around too long. They'd have abandoned the rings and counted their losses light compared to being stuck with "the Toadstress" for as long as a Wizard lives! Yuck!

Solitaire

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Tomoé - Dec 31, 2004 3:03 pm (#155 of 1858)

Back in business
I'd like to backtrack a little and add Neville did ask Hermione first while Ron asked Fleur and Harry Cho, so I would say he fancy Hermione.

I also think the information on the teacher is restricted for the readers, not for the characters of the book. The teacher had a life before they became teacher, they likely had a wedding, a family and extended family who knows who their spouse and children are, so unless there's a Secret Keeper in charge of that kind of info, I can't see how they could prevent someone like Malfoy to find out who is related to the teacher and where they live.

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Czarina II - Dec 31, 2004 4:01 pm (#156 of 1858)

I think Rowling has 'classified' that information because it will come up later in the story, or because at the time, she didn't have all the details worked out. (Sort of another way of saying "Maybe they do, maybe they don't." Avoid more flints that way.) Also, from a reader's point of view, Harry is the main window through which we see the story, and Harry (as a student) wouldn't necessarily know or care about his professors' private lives. He knows about Lupin now. Suppose that Harry had a chance to examine photos on McGonagall's desk one day: he might casually ask who the people are in them -- children, spouse, relatives, neighbours, friends, pets (well, not people, but...), etc. This hasn't yet come up in the story, though.

We didn't know about Molly's family until JKR told us she was born a Prewett and her two brothers were killed in the first war. We might find out that Sprout has a husband and three children and six grandchildren and a cat, if JKR chooses to tell us. Has anyone asked?

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Solitaire - Dec 31, 2004 6:13 pm (#157 of 1858)

The Professors we don't seem to "see" much after hours are Sprout and Flitwick--correct? This leads me to believe that they, at least, could have spouses. Binns is a ghost, so I doubt he has a wife--although perhaps he does. Maybe she is a ghost, too.

The kids seemed to know exactly where to find McGonagall the night Harry had his dream about Mr. Weasley and the Snake, so I kind of "feel" (sorry, but it is just a feeling) like she may not be married at this time (a widow, perhaps) and may live in Gryffindor Tower. Snape, too, is seen swooping around the castle at odd hours in the middle of the night, so I suspect he, too, may be single right now and live in Slytherin House. We know Hagrid is single at the moment--although I suppose that could change.

Dumbledore ... has he ever been married? He certainly seems like someone who would have enjoyed being a husband and father, doesn't he? I wouldn't be too surprised to find he was married--or at least has been at some point in his life--but I somehow suspect he is not married right now. If he is, his wife must be the most understanding soul alive! (I confess ... sometimes I've wondered if Dumbledore and McGonagall are secretly married. Just once in a while, though.)

Solitaire

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 31, 2004 10:45 pm (#158 of 1858)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Tomoe - I'd like to backtrack a little and add Neville did ask Hermione first while Ron asked Fleur and Harry Cho, so I would say he fancy Hermione.

Yes but was Hermione just about the only girl that paid any attention to him and helped him in anyway. I kinda relate to Neville in that situation.

Mikie

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Tomoé - Jan 1, 2005 5:43 am (#159 of 1858)

Back in business
Right Mickey, Hermione was the closest person Neville had to a friend, maybe that's the only reason he asked her out.

Professors Sprout and Flitwick are the likeliest candidate to have spouse, Mme Pince, Professors Sinistra, Vector and Grubbly-Plank could be married as well. We don't know enough about the teacher for Ancient Runes and Muggle Studies to even try to guess. Trelawney is definitely single.

Anyway, I agree with Czarina II's explanation

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Solitaire - Jan 1, 2005 9:17 am (#160 of 1858)

That's true, Tomoé. I tend to forget about the others because they are "less visible" characters. LOL I definitely agree about Trelawney. I can't see her married at all--although perhaps marriage to some upbeat soul might improve her outlook on life.

Solitaire

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Hermy-own - Jan 1, 2005 9:51 am (#161 of 1858)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
"although perhaps marriage to some upbeat soul might improve her outlook on life."

Yes ... but at what cost to his outlook on life?!

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ema fewett - Jan 1, 2005 12:55 pm (#162 of 1858)

I agree Solitaire! I've also secretly thought that Dumbledore and McGonagall have been married!

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Choices - Jan 1, 2005 3:01 pm (#163 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
And if they aren't married.....I wish they were. They are a good match! That line about "if Albus hadn't gone down for hot chocolate" in COS when he found Colin petrified - that made me think he and Minerva were spending time together. They were in their dressing gowns I think.

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timrew - Jan 1, 2005 4:08 pm (#164 of 1858)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
"Minerva and Albus sitting in a tree......."

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Solitaire - Jan 1, 2005 4:12 pm (#165 of 1858)

Wouldn't that just be a hoot? I hope for that 'ship more than any other!

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Choices - Jan 1, 2005 6:36 pm (#166 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think about the time Dumbledore went to Privet Drive to wait for Hagrid to bring Harry. Who was there waiting for him to arrive? McGonagall. She was there to be with him when he had something very difficult to do - obviously she cares for him and wanted to be supportive.

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Amilia Smith - Jan 1, 2005 7:57 pm (#167 of 1858)

I am sitting here reading all of these posts and chuckling to myself a bit. Part of me really likes the idea, and part of me is saying, "But he's twice her age!" (What a waste of parchment this post is.)

Although I suppose once you are over 70, it is no longer considered cradle robbing. :-)

Mills.

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Ann - Jan 1, 2005 8:32 pm (#168 of 1858)

I think Albus/Minerva is pretty unlikely, but for the same reason Choices thinks it is likely: that first scene together in PS/SS. If they were married, she would have known more, and she wouldn't have had to ask Hagrid where to find him. I can't see Dumbledore keeping something like that from his wife (or recognizing her animagus form only from the stiffness of the cat's back).

Hagrid/Minerva might be interesting to argue--they are fairly close contemporaries, and look how she goes to save him at the end of OotP. And, of course, there's the ever popular Snape/Minerva ship (bonding over quidditch scores, no doubt).

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Solitaire - Jan 1, 2005 8:57 pm (#169 of 1858)

If Minerva is too young for Dumbledore (which I do not concede), then Snape is too young for Minerva. He was her student. He is also too much of a "stuffed robe"! Minerva may look starchy and prim, but--like Dumbledore--she has a very tender heart, I think. She may respect Snape as a wizard, a colleague, and even a type of friend ... I think that is about it. (Then again, I may change my tune when I see her dancing with Snape the "tango czar" in GoF!)

Solitaire

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Ann - Jan 1, 2005 9:08 pm (#170 of 1858)

Oh, Solitaire! Where's your sense of romance? I can see McGonagall finding Snape's wit amusingly nasty, his teaching style reprehensible, and his quidditch team completely unethical, and still having a sneaking affection for the young man. After all, she's known him since he was eleven. As for age differences, I don't think they'd matter as much when people are so much longer lived. In spirit, she's far younger than he is. And Snape's going to die anyway, I think, probably nobly (think redemption), and I'd like to know he'd had a little bit of happiness first. She would be so good for him!

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Amilia Smith - Jan 1, 2005 9:12 pm (#171 of 1858)

If Snape is 35, McGonagall is 70, and Albus is 150, then Dumbledore is twice as old as McGonagall, and Minerva is twice as old as Severus. What that says to shipping, I don't know. Like I said, once you reach 70, it is probably time to quit counting.

Mills. (who is still chuckling at the direction this thread is going. Much funner than the R/H/Hr wars.)

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Solitaire - Jan 1, 2005 9:17 pm (#172 of 1858)

LOL Ann! You are too funny! So you think Snape's going to "kick the cauldron," too? Hm ... I'll admit the older witch-younger wizard relationship has merit. I just think McGonagall deserves more. Besides, she does not strike me as the type to go for the "dangerous bad boy" wizards. If she's going to go for a younger wizard, I say go for Remus! He's much more cuddly and far more "emotionally available" than Snape.

Solitaire

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 1, 2005 9:21 pm (#173 of 1858)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Ahhh, life raft at last on the ship thread!

...toddles cackling back towards St. Mungos...

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Solitaire - Jan 1, 2005 9:24 pm (#174 of 1858)

LOL Twinkles! Why should the kids have all the 'ships? Adult 'ships are far more interesting, if you ask me! hehe

Solitaire

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Choices - Jan 2, 2005 10:27 am (#175 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I can accept the age difference far more readily than I can accept the size difference....McGonagall and Hagrid just wouldn't work. LOL He needs someone with "bigger bones".

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KWeldon - Jan 2, 2005 10:50 am (#176 of 1858)

He needs someone with "bigger bones".

But other than Mme Maxine, who would that be? Wink

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Choices - Jan 2, 2005 11:10 am (#177 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
It certainly makes his choice easy - not a very big selection out there. LOL All he has to say is, "I'll take that one".

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Nicole Bloom - Jan 2, 2005 12:21 pm (#178 of 1858)

I've always had the impression that there is something more between McGonagall and Dumbledore. They just seem like such a good team which works together fluidly. McGonagall is always ready to stand up for him and Dumbledore is always ready to tell her he's fine and she needed hurt herself. They are the only two adults in the novels that I can feel an interaction between when reading them. Even reading about the Dursleys, who we know are married, I don't feel the closeness between Vernon and Petunia as I feel between McGonagall and Dumbledore.

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KWeldon - Jan 2, 2005 12:26 pm (#179 of 1858)

I don't feel the closeness between Vernon and Petunia as I feel between McGonagall and Dumbledore.

Very well put. I pick up on this, too.

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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 2:52 pm (#180 of 1858)

I agree, Nicole. There is definitely affection and far more chemistry between Minerva and Albus than we see between Petunia and Uncle Vernon (IMO). Whether or not it is "marital affection," I cannot say. I do not believe they were married when they met at Privet Drive the night Harry was left at the Dursleys. This belief is based on Dumbledore's "earmuffs" comment: "It's lucky it's dark. I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs."

A lot could have happened in the years between Privet Drive and the day Harry arrived at Hogwarts, though. If Albus and Minerva aren't married, I do believe they may be "sweet" on each other! Smile I really would like to see that 'ship sail into our harbor!

Solitaire

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timrew - Jan 2, 2005 4:43 pm (#181 of 1858)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Minerva and Hagrid? No, I could never see that. If Hagrid doesn't 'hook up' with 'Madame Maxime' then I can see him falling for a cute, female mountain troll. They would be of a similar size, and between them they could have a family of, er, 'Triants', or, 'Grolls'.

Minerva/Snape? So what if there's an age difference? Like someone said......Wizards and Witches live so long that the age difference becomes irrelevant. Snape could see Minerva as a foxy Witch just into her prime - a sort of Kim Cattrall of the Witch World.

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Choices - Jan 2, 2005 5:38 pm (#182 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Unfortunately, I don't think our Severus sees anyone in an "affectionate" way. Mores the pity!

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Ydnam96 - Jan 2, 2005 9:15 pm (#183 of 1858)

Hmmm...maybe the problem with Snape is that he lost his first love? Maybe...where is Gina? She can help!

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Jenny M. - Jan 2, 2005 10:54 pm (#184 of 1858)

I like the idea of Dumbledore and McGonagall "sweet" on each other but not married as of Book 1, though I don't think the arguments against their marriage are insurmountable:

"Albus could tell Minerva/his-wife things that she doesn't seem to know." Well, his "security clearance" is higher than hers, and she knows that. I don't think it would upset either one of them if he had to keep secrets from her.

"They sometimes call each other by title and surname." Well, yes, but they call each other by first names too - and they could have begun a habit of title/surname address when they met, before they married and kept it out of familiarity. And there are issues of needing to act professional in front of the students.

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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 11:14 pm (#185 of 1858)

I think that referring lovingly to one's spouse as Mr. or Mrs. So-and-so was relatively common in Victorian England. I know that I have seen it in the novels of both Jane Austen and Charles Dickens. Even Lady Bertram calls her husband Sir Thomas. Since I tend to think of the Wizarding World as a bit Victorian socially, I suppose that using the academic title for one's spouse would not be unheard of, particularly in front of the students.

Now that I think of it ... we have two married couples who teach at our school. They all refer to their respective spouses as Mr. or Mrs.--even to each other--when they are at school. Go figure!

Solitaire

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frogface - Jan 3, 2005 4:23 am (#186 of 1858)

I've often speculated (and i'm sure i'm not alone here) that Snape might have had feelings for Lily, despite his mudblood comments in the pensieve in OoP. It would add to the list of just why Snape hates James so much.

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 3, 2005 7:46 am (#187 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
frogface - I've often speculated (and i'm sure i'm not alone here) that Snape might have had feelings for Lily, despite his mudblood comments in the pensieve in OoP. It would add to the list of just why Snape hates James so much.

This is a theory that gets batted about a bit. Not so much now since OoP came out, and we find Snape calling Lily a "filthy mudblood."

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wwtMask - Jan 3, 2005 9:27 am (#188 of 1858)

well, it's not unheard of for people, especially those who still need to emotionally mature, to be mean or downright abusive towards the target of their affections. Snape could have liked Lily, but it would have gone against what his house and, possibly, his family believed.

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scoop2172000 - Jan 3, 2005 10:30 am (#189 of 1858)

I think Dumbledore is sweet on Madame Pomfrey. He calls her Poppy.

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KWeldon - Jan 3, 2005 10:43 am (#190 of 1858)

But isn't that her name?

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Solitaire - Jan 3, 2005 12:01 pm (#191 of 1858)

Dumbledore frequently uses first names when he addresses people, I've noticed--Severus (Snape), Minerva (McGonagall), Sirius (Black), Molly & Arthur (Weasley), etc. In most cases, I think it reinforces his feelings of friendship and affection. In other cases, however--Tom (Riddle), Cornelius (Fudge), and Lucius (Malfoy), perhaps--it may serve to remind them that they were once his students, under his authority. (BTW, I have noticed that Dumbledore, like everyone else, addresses Hagrid by his surname. Any significance there?)

Solitaire

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Steve Newton - Jan 3, 2005 12:09 pm (#192 of 1858)

Librarian
Good question, Solitaire. My first response is that it is relatively meaningless. But....

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wwtMask - Jan 3, 2005 2:05 pm (#193 of 1858)

Hagrid doesn't like his first name?

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scoop2172000 - Jan 3, 2005 2:09 pm (#194 of 1858)

Tonks insists on going by her surname only. Perhaps Hagrid does too.

Although, when he introduced himself to the 11-year-old Harry, he introduced himself as Rebeus Hagrid.

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The One - Jan 3, 2005 3:42 pm (#195 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
Although, when he introduced himself to the 11-year-old Harry, he introduced himself as Rebeus Hagrid.

..but just call me Hagrid, everyone else does.

Perhaps he dislikes it enouh to avoid using it, but not enough to keep it secret?

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Nicole Bloom - Jan 3, 2005 5:05 pm (#196 of 1858)

Poppy is probably a nickname for Madam Pomfrey. I believe even McGonagall called her Poppy at one point, though I could be mistaken.

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Choices - Jan 3, 2005 6:54 pm (#197 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
It's either her nickname or her regular name. I'm hoping she was married because I don't want to think her mother named her Poppy Pomfrey. I think she must be a widow now or otherwise no longer married, because she seems to be in the hospital wing day and night.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jan 3, 2005 8:40 pm (#198 of 1858)

Okay, I may be thick, but what's the problem with the name Poppy? Is it a British endearment or something? There are a lot of flower names in HP, and I never considered Poppy stranger than Pansy or Petunia.

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Hollywand - Jan 3, 2005 8:48 pm (#199 of 1858)

Gryffindor
Poppy is an opiate, so a great name for a healer. Petunia is in the tobacco family, so great for a toxic family member. Pansy is ususally associated with weakness, so a great name for an adversary. Lily a charming name for a beloved mother figure.

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Solitaire - Jan 4, 2005 3:28 am (#200 of 1858)

I like Hollywand's explanation of the flower names. Interesting that Poppy Pomfrey gives another PP name:
Peter Pettigrew
Peers Polkiss
Padma & Parvati Patil
Pansy Parkinson

Those were just the ones I could remember, so I checked the Lexicon and found Professor Phoebus Penrose and Sir Patrick Delany Podmore. I wonder ... is there any significance to that set of initials? We have other "doubles":

Minerva McGonagall
Madame Maxime
Moaning Myrtle
Dudley Dursley
Daedalus Diggle
Colin Creevy
Luna Lovegood
Ted Tonks
Severus Snape
Filius Flitwick
Bellatrix Black
Broderick Bode
Bertie Bott
Gregory Goyle
Dilys Derwent
Cho Chang
Florian Fortescue (the ice cream guy in Diagon Alley)

And how could I forget ...
Godric Gryffindor
Hannah Hufflepuff
Rowena Ravenclaw
Salazar Slytherin

I'm sure others can think of more, and I'm sorry mine aren't better organized. It's just very late ...

Solitaire

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 201 to 250)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:36 am

wwtMask - Jan 4, 2005 6:21 am (#201 of 1858)
Small correction: I believe it's Helga Hufflepuff.

Back to the 'shipping, I think it'd be interesting to hear everyone try to defend a 'ship that they are against or think is not possible. I imagine that such role reversal might strengthen our arguments for our respective favorite 'ship.

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Nicole Bloom - Jan 4, 2005 6:23 am (#202 of 1858)

To have two words next to each other that start with the same letter is a writing technique called alliteration, if my memory serves me correctly.

I just find that the names are somewhat easier to remember and their more fun to say out loud.

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Sir Tornado - Jan 4, 2005 6:35 am (#203 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
Nicole; to have same sounds is alliteration. Not the same words! There is a difference between them, but perhaps Solitaire might be able to explain it better!

Back to the 'shipping, I think it'd be interesting to hear everyone try to defend a 'ship that they are against or think is not possible. I imagine that such role reversal might strengthen our arguments for our respective favorite 'ship.

Well, that's an interesting idea! Well, I'll try my level best to defend R/Hr then

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Nicole Bloom - Jan 4, 2005 6:55 am (#204 of 1858)

Thanks for the correction Sir Tornado, I was sure there was something there. It's been a couple of years since my last poetry class though. Smile

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Steve Newton - Jan 4, 2005 8:09 am (#205 of 1858)

Librarian
Solitaire, I once made a list of alliterative names and came up with 40. Included many major ones, founders and teachers and such. Some appear to be trivial, Stan Shunpike for instance. (He appears twice so I am not going to claim that he doesn't grow as the series goes on.) I haven't discovered any meaning besides a love of wordplay. Maybe you can do better.

A quick search does not show me the list on the forums. I must have made it at home.

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Solitaire - Jan 4, 2005 10:46 pm (#206 of 1858)

Mask, you are correct. It is Helga. Please look at the time on that post, and then, I beg you ... please forgive my faux pas!

Steve, it is possible that it is simply as Nicole says: alliterative names are easier to remember and more fun to say--particularly when some of them are more "fanciful" or hold certain "connotations" that are appropriate to the one so named.

For example, "Flitwick" sounds a little like "swish and flick." Minerva makes me think of the goddess of wisdom, war, justice, etc. McGonagall, believe it or not, always makes me think of "Macavity Cat"--one of the cats from T.S. Eliot's Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats. (I think of "McGonagall Cat." BTW, this reminds me ... one of those Practical Cats was Skimbleshanks. Remind you of any name in HP? LOL)

Stan Shunpike ... well, Shunpike ... turnpike ... he shuns the turnpike? Madame Maxime ... Maxime reminds me of "maximum." I'm sure there are lots more alliterative names, Steve. And I'm sure that everyone can come up with some interesting connotations for the few I pointed out. It's fun, isn't it ... although it probably belongs on some other thread. LOL

Solitaire

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SarcasticGinny - Jan 5, 2005 5:09 pm (#207 of 1858)

However, we can't forget that Madame Maxime's first name is no more "Madame" than Dumbledore's is "Professor". Her name was Olympye, or something like that, wasn't it?

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 5, 2005 7:19 pm (#208 of 1858)

It's very hard to defend a ship you don't like. It is even harder if, like me, your entire 'shipyard' is a mess of hypothetical plans with nothing really favoured. For example, while I favour R/Hr for the reason that it matches a pureblood with a muggle-born (and HP/GW because it brings Harry into a large, loving family), I can see why H/Hr would also work (lead male, by definition, with lead female) leaving Ron with Luna or someone like that.

I suppose it is that I have nothing AGAINST so many possible combinations that it is hard to figure one I really don't like. Even Harry/Pansy doesn't really turn my stomach, although it has to start happening very soon or not at all - I can see why it WOULD work, even if I do not think it is the most likely possibility, and if I were Rowling I'd probably have written a little aside in which it happened - even if only to convince myself that it was a non-starter.

The only combinations I've ever really objected to are ones that, because of rating and censorship purposes, cannot be discussed here.

Madame Maxime's name was Olympe, in honour of Mount Olympus in Greece where the Gods lived (I believe it is also the tallest mountain in modern Greece, which is also significant given that she is part giant).

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Mrs Brisbee - Jan 5, 2005 8:19 pm (#209 of 1858)

I agree with you about 'ships, Muggle Doctor. For example, I could see Hermione ending up with Harry, or Ron, or Neville, or even someone else. I have my vague favorites, but won't be upset if they don't come to pass. The kids are, after all, still very young.

What I hope is that ten years down the road all of them will be able to sit down together to holiday dinners, regardless of who is matched up to whom.

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TomProffitt - Jan 5, 2005 10:19 pm (#210 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Jo does happy endings, but she doesn't do "... and they all lived happily ever after."

She'll pair her characters up where it makes sense for them as "people," not necessarily where we'd like it to be, they'd like it to be, or even where Jo would like it to be.

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SarcasticGinny - Jan 6, 2005 6:36 am (#211 of 1858)

I HOPE Jo does happy endings (as in no one we love too much dies!!!). But you're right, Tom. Characters, for Jo, write themselves almost. She didn't want Sirius to die, but he had to. She may not want Harry to be a bachelor, or with Luna, or Pansy, or whoever, but he might have to. I guess we'll see!

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wwtMask - Jan 6, 2005 7:18 am (#212 of 1858)

Or she could be good (bad?) to fan fic writers and readers by leaving the question of relationships unanswered by the end of book 7!

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KWeldon - Jan 6, 2005 7:24 am (#213 of 1858)

Or she could be good (bad?) to fan fic writers and readers by leaving the question of relationships unanswered by the end of book 7!

Actually, I think this is the worst that could happen regarding ships. I'd rather him be shipped with someone I don't like or her outright state that he met someone later rather than leave us hanging.

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Eponine - Jan 6, 2005 11:50 am (#214 of 1858)

I agree with KWeldon. I would rather know who the significant survivors end up with instead of leaving it up to us to decide.

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Hollywand - Jan 6, 2005 11:58 am (#215 of 1858)

Gryffindor
Survivors? ;-)

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KWeldon - Jan 6, 2005 12:07 pm (#216 of 1858)

Survivors? ;-)

Yes, that would be Hagrid, as played by Rupert, Draco, as played by Johnny Fairplay, and Dumbledore, as played by the all-knowing Jeff Probst.

Sorry, couldn't help it. Love that show.

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Eponine - Jan 6, 2005 12:34 pm (#217 of 1858)

Well, I believe that how Jo refers to anyone who's left.

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The final chapter of the seventh book is written. That's for my own satisfaction, so that I know where I'm going as I write the other books. And that last chapter deals with what happens to the survivors afterward. Because there will be deaths.

(Can I vote Malfoy off the island?)

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KWeldon - Jan 6, 2005 12:52 pm (#218 of 1858)

(Can I vote Malfoy off the island?)

No, he's too weak to win immunity challenges, and you want him in the final two with you so that the jury will give you all of the votes.

On topic, um,...let me reiterate that I hope she doesn't leave us hanging. Smile

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 6, 2005 1:56 pm (#219 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
KWeldon - On topic, um,...let me reiterate that I hope she doesn't leave us hanging. Smile

No, I don't think she will. If nothing else, the huge interest of the fans in the various 'ships will likely cause her to talk about them in more detail in her final chapter than she originally considered.

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KWeldon - Jan 6, 2005 2:10 pm (#220 of 1858)

Don't you think it's possible that she'll rationalize that if she leaves the ships hanging, it will foster more fanfic and speculation, thereby continuing interest in the series?

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The One - Jan 6, 2005 2:40 pm (#221 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
No.

Because the fanfic and speculations belongs to a hard core of those who has already read the books. What she will probably want when the series is finished is that new readers continues to start reading the books, keeping her old readers occupied will not be important.

She has made so much fun out of romance, and still the books contain very litle of it. That is done deliberate, and I am quite sure that she knew from very early on were she wanted the romance issue to go.

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coolbeans3131 - Jan 6, 2005 3:21 pm (#222 of 1858)

Maybe Jo planned right from the beginning for harry to end up with, say, Hermione. She didn't know how popular these books would get, or how attached to R/Hr fans would get (maybe that's why she laid off it a bit in OotP) Maybe she wrote in Luna, so Ron would live happily ever after too. :-)

I would also like to see Neville with Ginny. One of the reasons some want Harry with Ginny is so he gets the Weasley's as his loving family. I think Neville needs that too. How cute would that be?

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Choices - Jan 6, 2005 6:31 pm (#223 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I often wonder how influenced JKR is by her reader's questions and interests. Do you suppose, in her wildest dreams, she ever thought of how popular Professor Snape would become and does that influence the way she will portray him in the last two books? The same goes for various relationships - do her reader's wants and desires for the various characters inspire her to write them any differently?

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Solitaire - Jan 6, 2005 9:48 pm (#224 of 1858)

My take on Jo's comments has always been that she knows exactly where the story is going, which key characters will live and which will die, who will end up with whom, and so forth. She probably has a broad story board and knows the particular stopping points for each book. She just has to then see how she is going to get where she is going--who will live or die en route, who will join forces or part company, etc. Getting there in a natural, flowing, "organic" way--rather than a contrived, manipulated way--is the challenge.

I would be surprised if any major characters are rewritten or changed because of readers' sentiments. I can see that happening if one is writing an ongoing "soap opera" type of story. But these stories are going to have closure, it would seem. I can't see Jo completely changing a character's--well--character just because fans have turned the character into a cult hero.

I confess ... I have wondered whether or not Richard Harris's death would affect Dumbledore's lifespan. But they have a new movie DD now, so surely things will proceed as planned. I hope.

I honestly cannot see Jo changing her final 'ships based on fan desires, either. The characters who end up together will probably do so for really good reasons. To change the 'ships would require ultimately changing the makeups of the characters ... wouldn't it?

Solitaire

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Weeny Owl - Jan 7, 2005 12:03 am (#225 of 1858)

I say Draco gets paired with Buckbeak, but not as a romantic couple, of course, but with Draco being Beaky's lunch. Of course, Beaky would need copious amounts of antacids after, but it would be poetic justice.

I agree with you, Solitaire. I also believe the characters won't be left hanging. I hope JKR's last chapter is an epilogue that tells about who is with whom, what job each person has, etc.

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timrew - Jan 7, 2005 2:28 pm (#226 of 1858)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I reckon the real Moody will become the DADA teacher, turn Draco into a ferret for some misdemeanour or other; and before he can be turned back, he gets eaten by Buckbeak (who is known to be partial to a ferret or two).

Oh, and Ron is so happy he proposes to Hermione (thought I'd better drag it back to the Ship Thread).

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Solitaire - Jan 8, 2005 4:25 am (#227 of 1858)

Oh, tim! Please send that suggestion to Jo--the Draco/ferret one--I love it!

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Weeny Owl - Jan 8, 2005 7:51 am (#228 of 1858)

That's an excellent idea, Tim. I tip a wing to you!

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narisa - Jan 9, 2005 7:47 am (#229 of 1858)

Back to R/Hr ship, I can't see it happen. Not if Ron still have the emotion size of tea spoon and that thick not only on emotional but on everythings. H/Hr is a bit having more hope for me because they seem to have some connections like the time Malfoy said about dog and they both got the point, but Ron just said 'Cn you pass me the cake?'-or something else, I can't remember. Or in CoS, H and Hr talk about the diary written 50 years ago same time as the last time te chamber open and Ron was the only one clueless. Will Hr date a boy that thick? At least, I won't.

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coolbeans3131 - Jan 9, 2005 11:46 am (#230 of 1858)

I think Ron and Hermione would drive each other crazy. She would always be exasperated at him and he would always be sick of her nagging. Could someone explain to me how they would compliment each other?

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Steve Newton - Jan 9, 2005 12:32 pm (#231 of 1858)

Librarian
coolbeans3131, that sounds a lot like Arthur and Molly.

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KWeldon - Jan 9, 2005 1:04 pm (#232 of 1858)

Who is Hermione NOT going to nag? Wink

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Eponine - Jan 9, 2005 1:10 pm (#233 of 1858)

Herself?

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Catherine - Jan 9, 2005 1:43 pm (#234 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Nothing wrong with good healthy nagging.

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Solitaire - Jan 9, 2005 2:43 pm (#235 of 1858)

Coolbeans, I tend to agree with you. I suppose nagging could seem a familiar and comforting part of Ron's life. However, I doubt it. That kind of relationship tends to get old fast.

Just because Hermione is a lot like Molly doesn't mean Ron is necessarily like Arthur. I think either of the twins could handle a bossy or nagging wife better than Ron, because they would just say, "Yes, Dear, of course you're right," and then proceed to do exactly as they pleased. Arthur is kind of a "Yes, Dear" sort of guy, too--very mellow, rolls with the punches.

I'm not sure I exactly put Ron in this category. I think that he and Hermione may eventually "explore" a relationship; I'm just not sure that I see it being a permanent one. I'm not really sure I see any permanent relationship among the Trio. They may work better as three friends--each with their own separate love relationships--than as a couple and a spare guy! LOL Then again, we have the precedent of James/Lily plus Sirius ... so I guess it could happen!

Solitaire

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Sir Tornado - Jan 9, 2005 8:05 pm (#236 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
coolbeans3131, that sounds a lot like Arthur and Molly. -- Steve Newton

Steve, how are R/Hr like Arthur and Molly? When do you see Arthur and Molly bickering over silly issues?

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Steve Newton - Jan 10, 2005 7:11 am (#237 of 1858)

Librarian
What are silly issues is often a matter of opinion. They seem to be bickering whenever they are together.

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Choices - Jan 10, 2005 10:16 am (#238 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
They do bicker a lot and perhaps, as they get older, their issues would also mature and they would be more like what Molly and Arthur bicker about. Right now they are school kids and they argue about what is going on with them at the present time.

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Chemyst - Jan 10, 2005 1:35 pm (#239 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Could someone explain to me how they would compliment each other? - coolbeans

They'd say something like, "My, that is a nicely polished wand you have there!"
Sorry, but I just finished explaining the difference between compliment and complement to my son, and I couldn't resist...

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Loopy Lupin - Jan 10, 2005 2:19 pm (#240 of 1858)

Hehe

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The Artful Dodger - Jan 10, 2005 3:50 pm (#241 of 1858)

Sir Tornado, Harry compares Ron and Hermione to Molly and Arthur once, on an occasion at which they don't bicker at all, for a change.

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Hermy-own - Jan 10, 2005 5:16 pm (#242 of 1858)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
"They do bicker a lot and perhaps, as they get older, their issues would also mature and they would be more like what Molly and Arthur bicker about. Right now they are school kids and they argue about what is going on with them at the present time."--Choices

I think that sums it up very nicely.

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Choices - Jan 10, 2005 6:17 pm (#243 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Thank you, Hermy-own :-)

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Sir Tornado - Jan 10, 2005 10:04 pm (#244 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
Sir Tornado, Harry compares Ron and Hermione to Molly and Arthur once, on an occasion at which they don't bicker at all, for a change. -- Artful Dodger

That's a matter of opinion. We read the books from Harry's POV. But it has to be said that Harry isn't the best person when it comes to forming the conclusions.

What are silly issues is often a matter of opinion. They seem to be bickering whenever they are together. -- Steve Newton

Ok. So, can you then tell when they bicker?

Actually, they don't bicker at all. Molly is the only one who shouts, while Arthur stays mostly passive. (except for one or two arguments) Isn't that more like H/Hr?

In R/Hr, you see both, Ron and Hermione bickering with each other. Not one of them stays quiet.

I don't see how people draw comparisons between Arthur/Molly and Ron/Hermione. Whenever I point out the fact that there is a difference between the their arguments -- R/Hr bicker on very silly issues like Scabbers and Crookshanks, etc while A/M argue mostly on Life and Death issues (Sirius escaping from Azkaban, Telling Harry about the Order's bussiness etc) -- no one seems to have any answer at all! If Arthur/Molly does have comparisons to R/Hr, why do R/Hr shippers don't say anything more than "Harry compares Ron/Hermione to Arthur/Molly once?" Shouldn't there be an evidence in the books that shows the comparison to the reader rather than pointing out the comparison from Harry's thoughts? And, if the comparison is visible to the reader, then, why hasn't anyone pointed out the specific R/Hr bickering which corresponds to a Arthur/Molly argument?

We see Ron as a person who doesn't usually back off from an argument. The only case he does that is in OotP, when Harry and the Twins are planning to cause a distraction so that Harry can talk to Sirius about his dad. Otherwise, we see a Ron who is ready to argue at every possible moment and opportunity with Hermione, or, indeed anyone else (Remember POA where he is ready to argue with Fudge about Buckbeak?).

On the other hand, Arthur is a person who seems to run away from most of the arguments. The only time we really see Arthur arguing with Molly is in PoA, about telling Harry about Sirius' escape.

So, what's the comparison between Ron and Arthur here?

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Solitaire - Jan 11, 2005 1:24 am (#245 of 1858)

Sir T, YOU may find the Crookshanks/Scabbers issue trivial and silly. To Ron, however, it was serious. He felt that Hermione--by letting Crookshanks roam wherever he pleased and refusing to stop him from harassing Scabbers--was disregarding his feelings and disrespecting him in her refusal to admit Crookshanks was obviously after Scabbers. When it appeared that Scabbers had, indeed, been eaten, Ron was upset.

Harry and Ron were at odds with Hermione for so long, in fact--first over the fact that she reported he received the Firebolt to McGonagall and later over Scabbers--that Hagrid finally intervened.

As for Hermione being like Molly Weasley, she has certainly had some "Molly Moments." This is somewhat less apparent in OotP than in the other books. In the first three books, however, Hermione did occasionally scold Ron and Harry for breaking rules and being irresponsible. Molly's Howler to Ron reminded me a lot of Hermione. And for Christmas gifts she bought them homework planners that annoyed them about studying. She was a bit of a nag in her earlier years.

We see Hermione and Ron have a rather emotional argument over her date with Viktor Krum following the Yule ball. While we are not allowed to see all of the row (since Harry didn't), Ron was apparently mad that she went to the Yule ball with Krum instead of him or Harry. Hermione seems to be blasting Ron for taking her for granted and only asking her as a last resort, when no one else would go with him ... and then getting angry because she already had a date. In this one, even Harry has to admit that Hermione has a point.

In OotP, we see a Hermione who is as willing as Harry and Ron to break rules she sees as unfair. She is also not unwilling to assert herself and show her strength.

As for Arthur and Molly, I don't think he runs away from arguments. I think he just sort of does the "Yes, dear, you are right" thing and ignores most of her ranting and clucking. She jumps on him about the car, if you remember; we don't hear much about that. And she about comes unglued over the business in the hospital where he allows a healer to use a "Muggle procedure"--stitches. He listens there, because he is kind of a captive at that point.

The truth is that Molly is very "mother hen-ish" with everyone. Hermione has this tendency, too, with Harry, Ron and Neville. I hope this makes sense.

Solitaire

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Eponine - Jan 11, 2005 7:42 am (#246 of 1858)

As far as Harry comparing Ron and Hermione to Molly and Arthur... Yes, the books are from Harry's point of view, but JKR wrote that for a reason. It's not just a nice little observation from Harry. The author pointed out the comparison between them by having Harry think that. She inserted that observation for a reason. I don't claim to know why she put it in, but she must have had something in mind when she wrote that.

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Steve Newton - Jan 11, 2005 8:18 am (#247 of 1858)

Librarian
I've got to try to remember to never post on any 'ship issue. Its just not worth the trouble. (Of course, sometimes I look for trouble.)

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Hermy-own - Jan 11, 2005 8:39 am (#248 of 1858)

S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
I agree with Eponine. JKR does a similar thing with Dumbledore. What better way to convey one of the major themes of the series (choices vs. ability) than through a character of great wisdom and intelligence. Likewise, through Hermione, who is acknowledged by every fan as bright, JKR can conveniently drop a fact or two about something or the other.

That's what I think she's doing with Harry's observation--trying to tell us something. I'd take Eponine's idea one step further by suggesting that this is another hint at the R/H 'ship.

Hermy.

PS--I agree with you, Steve; the 'shipping debates tend to get a tiny bit heated at times. But as long as everyone plays nicely, it's all good fun.

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Catherine - Jan 11, 2005 10:17 am (#249 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
So, what's the comparison between Ron and Arthur here? -Sir Tornado

In general, Hermione tends to be the one who pushes, who nags, and who uses words. She's always worried about safety, and getting into trouble, and following the rules. She is also looking to be backed up by Ron, as when she confronts the twins about testing their Snackboxes on first years, much the way that Molly expects Arthur to support her about the car incident in CoS and in the argument about information in OoP.

Ron retreats, much like Arthur does. He lets Hermione be "the bad guy" and tell off the Twins. When she argues with him about the elf hats, he waits until she leaves and then moves the rubbish off of them so that the elves can see them. Mr. Weasley gets his way by retreating to his workshop, enchanting a Ford Anglia, for example, and still getting his way. Both of them seem to do the more subtle "defiance behind the scenes."

I see a lot of similarities in the way that Ron/Hermione and Arthur/Molly interact.

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Choices - Jan 11, 2005 12:10 pm (#250 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I tend to think that JKR wants us to see Ron and Hermione as a couple - she makes us see these comparisons to Molly and Arthur. But, being the sly and clever writer that she is, I also think she will surprise us by having Hermione and Harry end up together. I think Ron/Hermione is just a diversion.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 251 to 300)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:37 am

Sir Tornado - Jan 11, 2005 1:31 pm (#251 of 1858)
Rebel without a cause.
Solitaire... I never questioned the similarities between Hermione and Molly in my post. I only questioned the comparison between Ron and Arthur!

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scoop2172000 - Jan 11, 2005 1:37 pm (#252 of 1858)

I have this humorous vision of Harry and Ginny living happily ever after and being blessed with twin sons: James Harry Potter and Sirius Black Potter. And when McGonagle checks the book that records the birth of each magic child, the book will contain a warning for Hogwarts beside the twins' names: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 11, 2005 1:40 pm (#253 of 1858)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
scoop2172000 that is on vision I would sign off on.

Mikie

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 11, 2005 2:31 pm (#254 of 1858)

Scoop: No! That was ALREADY written on the Weasley twins' entries.

These two you speak of would have a cross-reference to that, and then the warning: "Be even more afraid."

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Solitaire - Jan 11, 2005 3:35 pm (#255 of 1858)

I don't know, Scoop ... I'd think Sirius George Potter and James Frederick Potter, if they're twins. It's important to work in the the Weasley Twins' names, too.

Solitaire

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scoop2172000 - Jan 12, 2005 10:45 am (#256 of 1858)

I don't know Solitaire: giving the Potter twins the same middle names as their Weasley uncles seems to be bad karma. James and Sirius died tragically fighting Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Would that be Fred and George's fate too?

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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 12, 2005 11:28 am (#257 of 1858)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Might be scoop2172000! It has been discussed.

Mikie

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Solitaire - Jan 12, 2005 10:37 pm (#258 of 1858)

Hopefully, Scoop, by the time Harry has kids (if he does), Voldemort and the DEs will be a bad memory. In that case, I definitely think the four biggest troublemakers need to be memorialized.

Solitaire

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Anrui Kadarin - Jan 13, 2005 3:57 pm (#259 of 1858)

Should have been in Slytherin: Too bad the testers were Gryffindors.
I like it, but somehow I doubt Harry will name his kids after Fred and George or his Dad. If Snape's still teaching when the kids go to Hogwarts, naming a kid James is an invitation to torture them. I just had a disturbing thought, someone named James Potter in Slytherin. *shudder* Although, I think for laughs, that either Harry or one of the Twins of Dean should name their kid Sirius Lee Orion Potter/Weasley/Thomas/Black. Think about it. My personal favorite ship sunk when JK told us Blaise Zabini was a boy. Other than that, no, I cannot see Harry marrying any Gryffindor or Hufflepuff girl. When Harry marries, she will be Slytherin, Ravenclaw, foreign, or a muggle. In each category, H/M, H/L, H/Gabrielle Delacour, or someone else. The only people I can't see Harry with are Hermione, Ginny, and Cho.

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Weeny Owl - Jan 13, 2005 5:17 pm (#260 of 1858)

H/M? I do so hate these / things.

Who is the "M" in "H/M?"

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Tomoé - Jan 13, 2005 5:36 pm (#261 of 1858)

Back in business
I think it's Millicent.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 13, 2005 9:07 pm (#262 of 1858)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Ugh. Please, give me a break.

Mikie

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Weeny Owl - Jan 14, 2005 9:38 am (#263 of 1858)

That's one reason the initials bug me.

Take PP... Peter Pettigrew, Padma Patil, Parvati Patil, Pansy Parkinson?

That's why I always use actual names... just so I don't confuse myself.

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Anrui Kadarin - Jan 14, 2005 9:57 am (#264 of 1858)

Should have been in Slytherin: Too bad the testers were Gryffindors.
It is Millicent. Sorry about that. Harry/Millicent for Slytherin. Harry/Luna for Ravenclaw. etc.

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Solitaire - Jan 15, 2005 4:18 am (#265 of 1858)

Well, after Millicent is chosen for Slytherin by the Sorting Hat, we read the following: Perhaps it was Harry's imagination, after all he'd heard about Slytherin, but he thought they looked like an unpleasant lot.

Those and subsequent descriptions we read about the Slytherin kids--male and female--are not exactly flattering, and they are, after all, Harry's perspectives on the kids. Most are described in terms that make them sound rather "troll-ish," if you ask me. Millicent, for example, sounds a bit like a female version of Crabbe and Goyle. I really don't see Harry with any Slytherin girls, unless there are some younger or older girls that we have not yet met who are less "Slytherin-y" in look and demeanor than those we do know.

Solitaire

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Choices - Jan 15, 2005 10:27 am (#266 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree Solitaire - I think Gryffindor and Slytherin are diametrically opposed and I can not see Harry being attracted to someone so totally opposite himself. Yes, I have heard the old saying "opposites attract", but I am sure there is a point beyond which that ceases to be true.

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 15, 2005 2:53 pm (#267 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Ah, but what about the theme of "reuniting the houses" that is so strong in the series?

BTW, I've often said Millicent is Crabbe in Drag. :-)

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total hatred - Jan 15, 2005 4:05 pm (#268 of 1858)

Come on when you are pissed off of at someone. You will never say good things on them. With Harry preconveived prejudice over Slytherins, he always see their bad side. What bugs me that Harry never speaks ill of Pansy. Harry didn't tell us that Pansy looks like a pug. It was the narrator that tells us.

This might sound silly. What do you think the intentions of the Sorting Hat why it tried to convince Harry to be a Slytherin? I believe that it wanted Harry to be in a house that he will have greater chances with girls. Pansy is just an evil Hermione and with her influence, Harry will be popular with Slytherin girls. This will reduce Draco's influece and with addition of Miliscent, Draco control is only over his loyal minions. With Harry subtle charms, he can easily win the other houses. Harry doesn't want to be there so the Sorting Hat placed him on the house with the cutest girls. Remember that the Patils are the cutest girls on their year

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Tomoé - Jan 15, 2005 4:18 pm (#269 of 1858)

Back in business
total hatred -> Harry doesn't want to be there so the Sorting Hat placed him on the house with the cutest girls. Remember that the Patils are the cutest girls on their year.

You know, there a girl that look exactly like Parvati in Ravenclaw and Cho isn't that bad either. ^_~

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Catherine - Jan 15, 2005 4:23 pm (#270 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Tomoe does have a point. Harry and Ron are supposed to be going to the Yule Ball with the best-looking girls of their year. Cho is a year ahead of Harry, so she could very well qualify, herself, for her own year.

I really don't think that the Sorting Hat put Harry in a house based on his potential for romantic relationships. If I misread your post, Total Hatred, please accept my apology in advance.

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Chemyst - Jan 15, 2005 5:13 pm (#271 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
What do you think the intentions of the Sorting Hat why it tried to convince Harry to be a Slytherin? I believe that it wanted Harry to be in a house that he will have greater chances with girls. - Total H

Interesting. The Sorting Hat did sort of encourage Harry to let it sort him into Slytherin. And since the houses are divided, many future romances are probably made or broken on the fate of the sorting. And while I doubt that providing little hotties for Harry would be the Hat's primary intention, behind every great/successful man there stands a woman. So maybe the Sorting Hat does have wider intentions than it first appears.....

But I think the other question you have indirectly raised -- What intentions might the Sorting Hat have had concerning the defeat/success of Voldemort by trying to convince Harry to be a Slytherin? -- is a good one and is worth discussing on an appropriate thread.

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 15, 2005 7:47 pm (#272 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
I don't think the Sorting Hat attempted to persuade Harry to join Slytherin House. Rather, I think it was defending Slytherin House from Harry's prejudice.

I never felt the Sorting Hat was going to place Harry in Slytherin House. It was only trying to point out to Harry that Slytherin held certain advantages that would help him. If Harry had said, "Not Hufflepuff! Not Hufflepuff!" it would have defended Hufflepuff just as strongly. That doesn't mean it was planning to put Harry in it.

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Choices - Jan 15, 2005 7:58 pm (#273 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think the Sorting Hat sensed something in Harry - after all, didn't the hat once belong to Godric Gryffindor? I think it was just making sure that Harry would stand firm in his desire not to be a Slytherin. The hat tried to encourage Harry to change and accept placement in Slytherin and Harry refused - a good sign that Harry was firm in his beliefs and would not be swayed. The hat sort of tested Harry to see if he could be tempted.....and he couldn't. He passed!!!

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total hatred - Jan 15, 2005 8:25 pm (#274 of 1858)

First and foremost, I was just playing around. I basically wanted to find ou how you guys will react if I made that statement.

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Chemyst - Jan 15, 2005 10:08 pm (#275 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I was just playing around.
... a little like Ron, who stumbles into something significant when he thinks he is only making a joke.

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wwtMask - Jan 17, 2005 7:16 am (#276 of 1858)

total hatred: What bugs me that Harry never speaks ill of Pansy. Harry didn't tell us that Pansy looks like a pug. It was the narrator that tells us.

I maintain, as always, that the narrator is seeing the world through Harry's eyes. A lot of his opinions about people and things are related to us through the narrator. Can we really throw out every opinion of his we believe to be true because he doesn't explicitly look at us and say "Hey, she's ugly." or "This guy is a git."? It is not an accident that we're privy to Harry's innermost thoughts and feelings. If Harry felt differently about Pansy looking like a pug, why would the narrator contradict that by giving her an unflattering description? It just does not stand to reason.

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Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 12:09 pm (#277 of 1858)

Mask is correct. The first chapters of both PS/SS and GoF are told from different points of view. The rest of both books and (I think) all of the others--unless I'm forgetting something, which is quite possible--are all told in the Limited Omniscient Point of View, through Harry's eyes. This means that the thoughts, feelings, and opinions offered are Harry's.

Solitaire

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wwtMask - Jan 17, 2005 1:42 pm (#278 of 1858)

The only other time I can recall there being a different point of view in the series is the first Quidditch match in CoS, when we see things from 3rd person limited perspective where Ron and Hermione are seated in the stands.

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Steve Newton - Jan 17, 2005 6:58 pm (#279 of 1858)

Librarian
I recently listened to SS and noted several scenes which seemed to be from a different point of view. Alas, I can remember only one. When they are fighting the troll it says that Ron used the only spell that he could think of. This line, at least, is from Ron's point of view.

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TomProffitt - Jan 17, 2005 7:22 pm (#280 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Actually the first chapter of GoF is Harry's Point of View. He dreamt it. He was apparently connected to the muggle in the dream as well as to Voldemort.

In PS/SS Jo does skip about a bit with her point of view. After that book, with acceptable debate for GoF, she is extremely consistent in her PoV.

Um, what thread am I writing on?

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KWeldon - Jan 17, 2005 8:13 pm (#281 of 1858)

Um, what thread am I writing on?

You're writing on the shipping thread, where the point of view topic came up because it was interpreted that the narrator thinks Pansy looks like a pug, and therefore Harry must think that also.

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter whether or not Harry at 11 years old thinks Pansy looks like a pug for the H/P ship to sail. Her looks could change with time, his perception of beauty could change with time, or he could fall for her even if he doesn't consider her attractive.

However, you can bet Draco would not pick an ugly girl to parade around with.

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narisa - Jan 17, 2005 9:18 pm (#282 of 1858)

But Draco DID look upset about his date, or at least I think there is some lines in GoF. Somehow, I never think H/P ship will ever sail. They are study together (potion and CoMC) for 5 years now and Harry never look at her twice, or pay least attention to her. Or maybe he will be just like Ron to suddenly see Hermione is a girl. But..... I don't know.

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 17, 2005 9:24 pm (#283 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
narisa,

The H/P 'ship hasn't sailed. She doesn't like him, and he doesn't like her.

So why shouldn't they fall in love?

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Phoenix song - Jan 17, 2005 9:35 pm (#284 of 1858)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
I'm scared to post on this thread, because the 'Shippers can be so intensely devoted.... However, I have to agree that just because Harry hasn't paid any attention to Pansy doesn't mean that he'll never notice her. There are many successful couples that knew each other for years and never really took the time to get to KNOW each other, and when they did notice one another they found love. AND there are also many couples that really despised one another and ended up together. Disliking someone takes more energy and passion that being disinterested in them. When it comes to relationships all normal rules concerning sanity and sensibility go out the window, and anything is possible.

Barbie

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Catherine - Jan 18, 2005 6:18 am (#285 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Disliking someone takes more energy and passion than being disinterested in them. --Phoenix Song

I can agree with that. Marcus has indicated that Harry is neutral toward Pansy. So right now I would say that Harry is not investing any energy or passion into that relationship.

Will he, in the books to come? My opinion is no, but I've been surprised before in the Potterverse.

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 18, 2005 5:34 pm (#286 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jan 18, 2005 4:40 pm
Catherine - Marcus has indicated that Harry is neutral toward Pansy.

Well, actually, not exactly. Let's use the following scale:
0 : Willing to commit murder.
1 : Willing to use violence but not death.
2 : Willing to use any means short of violence.
3 : Active dislike. Speaks out against someone if given the chance.
4 : Dislikes someone but keeps quiet about it.
5 : Neutral
6 : Likes/respects someone but keeps quiet about it.
7 : Active liking. Talks favorably with like-minded people.
8 : Willing to argue for someone against opposition.
9 : Willing to fight for someone against opposition.
10: Willing to put life on line for someone.

I think Harry has pretty much held steady at 4 with respect to Pansy.

Pansy is more complicated in respect to Harry. She started out at 4 as a first year. She moved to 3 during PoA and GoF. (We don't see her in CoS.) Then at the start of OoP with all the bad publicity surrounding Harry, and the accounts of him smearing the families of her friends, she dropped to a 2. This was Pansy at her worse.

Then when the Quibbler article came out, she quickly rose to a 4. She has been rising ever since. She might even be as high as 7 now, but I doubt it. She is likely a 7 for what he stands for, but I think it likely for her to consider him personally a 4, 5, or 6.

EDIT: I predict HBP will bring them both up to 9. Book seven will push it to 10.

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Chemyst - Jan 18, 2005 5:54 pm (#287 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
My response to the previous post is somewhere between a #4 and a #6, but I'm keeping quiet about which one.

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Choices - Jan 18, 2005 7:01 pm (#288 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Thank you Chemyst - your silence has been duly noted. I'm pretty sure I agree with you, but I'm keeping quiet too. LOL :-)

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I Am Used Vlad - Jan 18, 2005 7:42 pm (#289 of 1858)

I Am Almighty!
I thought that Pansy has been "off stage" since the article in the Quibbler. It's hard to rate her when we have no idea what she's up to(other than retrieving the DA membership list that could have caused Harry and his friends to be expelled).

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 18, 2005 7:55 pm (#290 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Right you are, Vlad. To say that she is neutral or better -- or for that matter better than a '2' -- is speculation. But it is speculation that best explains why Rowling took her "off stage" at that precise moment AND continued to refer to talk about her AND absented her from the showdown.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jan 18, 2005 8:24 pm (#291 of 1858)

I Am Almighty!
Well, I would say the raid on the DA meeting would be a 2 on your scale. After that, we really don't have enough information. To me, that puts Pansy at -1: So unimportant that she is never around at the climax of any of the books.

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Catherine - Jan 19, 2005 5:30 am (#292 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Marcus, you have said before that Harry is neutral toward Pansy. From December 23, 2004:

In fact Harry doesn't react negatively to her at all, except one very mild exception. He is strictly neutral towards her.

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 19, 2005 12:21 pm (#293 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
There is neutral, and there is neutral. Obviously he has some opinion of her, and it is not strictly neutral. The assumption that she was going to get satisfaction in Hermione's discomfort shows that.

But Rowling does take great care in keeping his reactions to her as neutral as possible. Perhaps I should have been more explicit. Sorry.

Maybe four and a half? :-)

Vlad - So unimportant that she is never around at the climax of any of the books.

"So unimportant"?

On at least two occasions in chats and interviews, Rowling spontaneously thinks of her as the prime bad girl of Hogwarts.

Throughout OoP, Pansy is used to mock and humilate Harry and his friends. The last time was when she lead her friends in mocking Harry and Cho on Valentine's Day.

So she is either so prominent of a bad person that Rowling spontaneously thinks of her in her interviews and chats and uses her with excruciating effect to hurt Harry and his friends, or she is so unimportant that Rowling doesn't think to include her in the major showdown between good and evil at Hogwarts.

Which is it?

Assuming she is thawing towards Harry satisfies the facts as we know them very simply. Assuming she isn't requires things to get more complicated.

I'm rather partial to Occam's Razor, myself.

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wwtMask - Jan 19, 2005 1:29 pm (#294 of 1858)

Occam's Razor notwithstanding, simplicity and truth are not mutually exclusive. It is a rather large leap of faith to believe Pansy has turned 180 degrees with regards to Harry in so short a time, especially considering the circumstances in the school. Harry was not vindicated until the very end of the school year. Why then would Pansy be thawing, as you put it, towards Harry, when she had no incentive or plausible motivation to do so. This is all based on what we know of Pansy and her personality and what apparently motivates her, according to what we have actually seen. That is exactly the point which bugs me about this theory: speculation on the reasons off-screen actions which, at the moment, or mere speculation themselves. If there were any inkling that Pansy were doing anything different, I could probably see your point. For all we know, she could have been recruiting people for a Dark Arts club or fretting over OWLs or even daydreaming lazily about afternoon strolls by the lake with Harry. This theory starts on a steep slope with rather liberal interpretations of Pansy's past actions. Making her absence and speculation of what she was doing and why she was not around one of the cornerstones for the theory seems to me like adding a boulder to the climb up that steep slope. It's not that her absences are subject to interpretation, it's that they are subject to the creation of something to speculate upon. Ignoring that which we have no knowledge of and basing my opinion solely on what is, if not incontrovertible, actually written in the book, I am forced to speculate on the future of this ship according to Pansy's character and her actions and Harry's character and his actions as they are presented in the book. To that end, I think that, while not impossible, the ship is highly improbable.

On a slightly off-topic note, I've always wondered why people think Pansy needs to "reform". Yes, she has something of a nasty attitude, but I don't think she's evil and, besides being a nuisance to HRHr, I don't recall her acting particularly badly towards other people.

[EDIT]After re-reading the post and the last 10-15 posts in this thread, I think it's about time we migrated to the Harry's 'Ship Uniting The Houses thread. Also, apologies if I seem a bit harsh there.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jan 19, 2005 1:48 pm (#295 of 1858)

I Am Almighty!
On at least two occasions in chats and interviews, Rowling spontaneously thinks of her as the prime bad girl of Hogwarts.

Pansy is the only Slytherin girl, and one of only four Slytherins, who speaks, and she is in the books more than Millicent, so it makes sense that JKR would think of her as the prime bad girl.

Throughout OoP, Pansy is used to mock and humilate Harry and his friends. The last time was when she lead her friends in mocking Harry and Cho on Valentine's Day.

Mocking Harry and his friend seems to be Pansy's purpose in the series. If Draco was the only person who picked on Harry and his friends, we might think of him as a bully who happens to be in Slytherin. But since Pansy does it, too, we get the impression that all Slytherins are nasty.

So she is either so prominent of a bad person that Rowling spontaneously thinks of her in her interviews and chats and uses her with excruciating effect to hurt Harry and his friends, or she is so unimportant that Rowling doesn't think to include her in the major showdown between good and evil at Hogwarts.

The correct answer, IMO, is both. They are not mutually exclusive.

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Catherine - Jan 19, 2005 1:50 pm (#296 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
On a slightly off-topic note, I've always wondered why people think Pansy needs to "reform". Yes, she has something of a nasty attitude, but I don't think she's evil and, besides being a nuisance to HRHr, I don't recall her acting particularly badly towards other people.

Perhaps they don't want to see the hero of the story with a meanie.

Pansy has been nasty to Neville (called him a "fat crybaby") and insulting and untruthful about Hagrid (during Umbridge's inspection). She insulted Cho and reminded her of Cedric on Valentine's day when Cho was on a date with Harry. Pansy was present when Draco bullied other students out of the coach at the beginning of of OoP. As a prefect, one could argue that even if she didn't do it herself, she allowed Draco, another prefect, to abuse his position.

She's been more than just a pain to Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Her involvement in Rita's defamation of Hermione in the Witch Weekly article is utterly despicable. She is a prefect, and lead students to sing an insulting song about Ron.

Perhaps people think that Pansy needs to reform because she isn't a nice person?

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scoop2172000 - Jan 19, 2005 2:28 pm (#297 of 1858)

Excellent post, Catherine. I couldn't agree with you more.

Pansy's a little witch, both in the figurative sense and the literal. I don't see her being any nicer as a grown-up -- and there's no WAY I see Harry ever liking her.

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wwtMask - Jan 19, 2005 2:56 pm (#298 of 1858)

I don't deny she's a mean-spirited person, but the word "reform" sounds to me like she's in need of some kind of boot camp for juvenile delinquents. She only seems to be guilty of not favoring the people that Harry likes. Her personal battle with HRHr seems to be at the root of the instances you have mentioned. I can bet that she's not as nasty towards everyone else. As for letting Draco bully 2nd years for that coach, I'd like to point out all of the rule breaking that Ron allowed his brothers to get away with. Speaking impartially, I can't say she was more at fault than Ron was. I think most people think of Pansy turning into another of the likable characters when they think of her reformation. That would be a bit dull, in my opinion. As much as I like the Weasley's, I'd hate to see all the "bad guys" at Hogwarts reform into Weasley-types.

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Eponine - Jan 19, 2005 3:58 pm (#299 of 1858)

I think the proper word would be redeemed.

I know that there's no evidence for it, because the only time we ever see Pansy is through Harry, but personally, I think she's nasty to everyone. I knew girls like that, and yes, there were people they would focus on more than others. But in general, they were just nasty people.

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Steve Newton - Jan 19, 2005 7:22 pm (#300 of 1858)

Librarian
I just listened to OOTP, the beginning, and I noticed that in chapter 3 that when Tonks helps Harry to pack she specifically asks him how she looks. I think that she is interested.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 301 to 350)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:39 am

Catherine - Jan 19, 2005 7:35 pm (#301 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
Um, Tonks is in her 20s. Harry is still 15 by the time of this incident. I think she's running the question by someone she has no interest in.

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Steve Newton - Jan 19, 2005 7:38 pm (#302 of 1858)

Librarian
20s and 15. Stranger things have happened. He's also famous and wealthy. And a heck of a nice guy.

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Catherine - Jan 19, 2005 7:46 pm (#303 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
He's an underaged wizard, and almost a child.

Unless she's interested in Azkaban-bait, which I doubt.

Tonks relates well to folks (Ginny, Remus, Harry, Mad-Eye). But I don't see this as a romantic attachment.

About her appearance--she asks and answers her own question. She's the closest member the Order has to Hogwarts-aged wizards; she's a natural choice to help Harry pack and move to Headquarters. Never mind that she is Sirius' cousin, and is an Auror (which Harry admires) and appreciates a good Broomstick.

Tonks really comes across as "one of the guys," and this, even more than the age difference, convinces me that there is no 'ship there.

EDIT: I taught high-school, and there was, my first year or two, the same age difference between me and some of my students as there is between Harry and Tonks. Trust me, it is a lifetime between them, and unless you are suggesting that they come together at a much later point, it almost seems icky to think about.

I myself am not comfortable thinking about a teenaged Harry having a relationship with a much older woman.

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Choices - Jan 19, 2005 7:58 pm (#304 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree - it does seem to me that teenage wizards don't mature as rapidly as muggle teens. Harry and Ron still seem very backward (in comparison) when it comes to girls. Most 15 year old boys that I know are much more advanced. I think it is sweet though - I love Ron and Harry - all the kids for that matter - and I'm glad they aren't letting their hormones run away with them. All that can come later.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jan 19, 2005 8:11 pm (#305 of 1858)

I Am Almighty!
Steve, when I first read that part of OotP, I thought that it seemed like Tonks had a thing for Harry. But I agree with Catherine that Tonks is just an all around friendly, outgoing person. I also agree with Choices that Harry has enough problems dealing with girls his own age.

That said, you are not the first H/T 'shipper on the forum. mike miller will be happy that someone agrees with him.

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Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 12:25 am (#306 of 1858)

I agree that Tonks and Harry suffer from too great an age difference at this point in the series. I always had the idea that she was about 22 or so--although I just this moment checked the Lexicon entry on her and it gives her birth year as 1973. Thirteen years at their respective ages is a HUGE difference--practically a generation. However, she is the perfect age for Charlie Weasley!

Choices, I agree with your comment that Wizarding teens seem to mature less rapidly than Muggle teens--to a point. Our Trio do seem a lot more focused on things that we might call "social issues" than on dating. This is undoubtedly true of Ron and Hermione due to their relationship with Harry. Hermione, apparently, still maintains a correspondence with Krum, and she is more socially adept than either of the boys.

Other kids at Hogwarts--Cho, Ginny, Michael Corner, Dean Thomas--seem interested enough in the normal boy-girl, teen stuff. Molly Weasley seemed interested enough in dating, as well, when she was at Hogwarts.

I think our Trio just kind of stand apart from the rest of the kids. They have faced dangers, braved perils, and succeeded in adventures that would have challenged older and more experienced wizards than they. Dumbledore himself has affirmed this. Our trio seem to be in a different place than the majority of their peers.

Solitaire

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Steve Newton - Jan 20, 2005 7:11 am (#307 of 1858)

Librarian
I'm so happy to have posted on the 'shipping thread and not being eviscerated. I wasn't sure that this could happen.

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Catherine - Jan 20, 2005 8:20 am (#308 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Nope, Steve, no Entrail-Expelling Curse here.

It is interesting how heated the arguments have become, at times.

I like the suggestion of Tonks pairing with Charlie Weasley. Both of them have active, dangerous jobs, so they have similar interests there. Tonks also appreciates a jokes and fun, which seems to be part of Charlie's personality, also, judging from the dueling tables in GoF.

Physical proximity remains a problem, though, unless Tonks goes to Romania or Charlie comes home.

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Loopy Lupin - Jan 20, 2005 8:22 am (#309 of 1858)

Most 15 year old boys that I know are much more advanced.-- Choices

Define "advanced."

I would never purposefully attempt to eviscerate anyone, but I really don't understand the continued speculation about Harry and Tonks. Using the Lexicon age-line, she would have been about 22 to Harry's 15. (OoP takes place in 1995 using our timeline.) This is an area which I am confident there is 0 possibility of JKR entering.

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Catherine - Jan 20, 2005 8:51 am (#310 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
I share your confidence, Loopy, and I will point out that I think that Tonks seems to behave toward Ginny, Hermione, and Harry as a big sister.

At the last dinner at 12 GP before start of term, Tonks wears her hair red, and it is stated that she looks like Ginny's big sister. She counsels Ginny on how to test for an Imperturbed door. She gets Harry a flying model broomstick for Christmas; she's essentially buying him a toy.

Tonks is an easy-going, eager, friendly person, but I can't see that she has romantic interest in a 15 year-old boy. As a former teacher and a mom, I just can't see JKR going there, and as these books are categorized as children's books, I don't think that would be appropriate, either.

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Steve Newton - Jan 20, 2005 9:15 am (#311 of 1858)

Librarian
I think that the toy argument is pretty strong. I hadn't thought of it. (Actually, I haven't listened that far into the book yet, this time around.) In 2 years Harry will be of age and the difference may not appear to be so great.

I've actually wondered if there could be more to the miniature broom. With all of the time spent on quidditch it just seems that flying is going to be very important to the end. No idea how.

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scoop2172000 - Jan 20, 2005 10:19 am (#312 of 1858)

Catherine raises an excellent point about the model Firebolt being a toy. But I think there's more to it than that.

Tonks was very impressed, the night she met him, that his broom was a Firebolt. She also learned that night that he's a good flyer, and I assume shortly afterward, she would have found out from someone (probably Sirius or Lupin)that Harry is a talented Quidditch player. Later on, I'm sure she probably found out through the grapevine that Umbridge kicked Harry off the team and confiscated his broom.

Adding it all up: I think Tonks was very thoughtful in giving Harry the model: it was a way of her telling him she still thinks he's a cool flyer.

Getting back to the 'ship subject, I don't see Tonks and Harry together. I agree with others who have remarked the age difference is too great. Besides, if Tonks were to become interested in someone from the younger crowd, I would think it would be Fred or George. They're of age and are successful businessmen -- and they're free spirits like she is.

My 'ship theories are Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione, and -- yes, Marcus -- Draco/Pansy.

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Eponine - Jan 20, 2005 11:10 am (#313 of 1858)

I think Catherine's right that JKR would simply not go there with such a difference in their ages. In about 6-7 years, it wouldn't matter so much, but the difference between 15 and 22 or even 17 and 24 is substantial.

Scoop, I have the same theories as you.=)

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Loopy Lupin - Jan 20, 2005 11:22 am (#314 of 1858)

but the difference between 15 and 22 or even 17 and 24 is substantial. --- Eponine

For that matter, the difference between 15 and 18 is often quite substantial.

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Choices - Jan 20, 2005 11:28 am (#315 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Loopy - "Define: Advanced"

LOL No, no, this is a family forum and I won't get into that. Surfice it to say that JKR has aimed her books at a wide age range from kids to seniors (me personally being one of the latter) and she purposely has kept the teenage, raging hormone issue in check. Thanks for that, JKR. She has far more interesting and magical things going on to be concerned with who is making out with who. Her books are so very much more than just teeny-bopper romance novels.

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Loopy Lupin - Jan 20, 2005 1:03 pm (#316 of 1858)

Oh, I wasn't even hinting that we delve into raging hormones. I think what I was getting at is that I don't think Ron and Harry are all so "unadvanced." Sure, I don't know a lot of 15 year olds who wear pajamas and still have a preoccupation with candy. Rather, the preoccupation would generally center around video games. With all respect to current 15 year-olds, I think that Ron and Harry's collective cluelessness is fairly representative of the age.

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Choices - Jan 20, 2005 7:00 pm (#317 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Whatever they are representative of, I find them charming and I hope they remain that way for a good while.

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 20, 2005 7:10 pm (#318 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Loopy Lupin - I don't know a lot of 15 year olds who wear pajamas and still have a preoccupation with candy.

Interesting, I know quite a few.

Anyway, having been a teen-age boy myself, and having spent my twenty-third year in a freshman dorm at college, I can vouch for the fact that the vast majority of normal twenty-something females will not want to have anything to do with a 15 year old male in the serious relationship department.

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Choices - Jan 20, 2005 7:26 pm (#319 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
"the vast majority of normal twenty-something females will not want to have anything to do with a 15 year old male in the serious relationship department"...Prefect Marcus

You are so right Marcus - the operative word there is "normal", so assuming Tonks is normal, I see a dim future for any ship with Harry. Thank goodness.

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Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 11:20 pm (#320 of 1858)

Oops! Is my face red! I just looked at what I said earlier! I can only say that I'm not really an idiot, and my checkbook always balances to the penny! I guess this will serve as an excellent reminder to me NOT to post on anything involving numbers when my brain is too tired to think straight. A thousand pardons ... I'm warming up the steam iron right now. I'll just pop my hands into the toaster while I'm waiting.

Solitaire

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scoop2172000 - Jan 21, 2005 6:24 am (#321 of 1858)

Loopy Lupin has a point ... "the age difference between 15 and 18 is often quite substantial." Sometimes. But it's often less substantial if the 15-year-old is female. Girls mature faster than boys.

A case in point is Hermione, who in many ways is quite mature for her age, certainly much more mature than Harry and Ron (and Fred and George for that matter.)

Remember: Hermione was 15 when she went out on her first date with Victor, who was 18 (perhaps even 19) at the time.

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Steve Newton - Jan 21, 2005 7:31 am (#322 of 1858)

Librarian
"my checkbook always balances to the penny"

Solitaire, this is very strange.

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Catherine - Jan 21, 2005 7:34 am (#323 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Scoop, I agree with your assessment about Hermione's maturity at 15 compared to the boys her age. In general, girls do tend to be more mature for their age than the typical boy; at least, that's my experience.

I think the Yule Ball seemed like an innocent sort of date; it was a school dance with chaperones. Snape managed to interrupt the snogging couples in the roses, after all. I might be overprotective, but I would not be quite comfortable as a rule for 15 year old girls to date 19 year old young men.

Viktor seems to be shy, and may be somewhat socially backward. Their relationship seems to consist of written correspondence mostly, so my "ICK" alarm doesn't ring when I consider their possible 'ship.

With Harry and Tonks, however, the age difference causes my "ICK" alarm to go off loud and clear.

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Solitaire - Jan 21, 2005 8:16 am (#324 of 1858)

Not really, Steve. Although I am more like Harry and Ron when it comes to keeping my desktop organized (English teachers are paper magnets, and I hate to toss anything until June, when all grades are final), I am Hermione to a tee when it comes to managing my gradebook ... and my checkbook! I am absolutely "AR" about those two things.

Solitaire

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Ann - Jan 21, 2005 10:20 am (#325 of 1858)

While in general a romance between a 15-year-old and someone in their early 20s doesn't seem very likely, particularly when the younger party is male, I think it could work in specific cases. Relationships are very individual things, of course; a specific (obviously very mature) 15-year-old who happened to share very compelling interests or experiences with a 22-year-old might be able to make something work, particularly if he were cool enough to recognize and enjoy the maternal component of her affection during their early years together.

I don't think JKR would do a relationship between Harry and Tonks, however, unless it's in her future lives chapter at the very end. I could see Harry and Tonks at 25 and 32 quite easily, if both were working together as aurors and had their shared friendship of the past to build on. But then I also favor Snape-McGonagall....

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Loopy Lupin - Jan 21, 2005 10:26 am (#326 of 1858)

I might be overprotective, but I would not be quite comfortable as a rule for 15 year old girls to date 19 year old young men. -- Catherine

Well, I don't know that the word "over" can be used in this context in terms of "protective." What's more, at least in Virginia, the word "legal" cannot really be used when talking about a 19 year old and a 15 year old, although I think they could get married without the 15 year old's permission. Ah, I love the South.

Query: I suppose from JKR's latest clarifications we have determined that Hermione is actually usually a year older than the boys during the school year. So, she turned 15 in September of GoF. As for Victor, he was at least 17 to be in the tournament. My brain wants to remember that Ron identified Krum as 18. (Catherine? If you will, please.) I think it's safe to say Hermione is pretty mature for her age, so her 15 to Victor's 18 doesn't ruffle my feathers much.

It is funny how we can get hung up on age today. When I was in highschool, I don't think anyone would have raised too much of a fuss about a Senior dating a Freshman and certainly nothing would be thought of a Senior dating a Sophomore. However, to reiterate my Tonks' objection, lots would be thought about a college Senior (or Sophomore for that matter) dating a highschool Sophomore.

I also might add that I think our telly and movie watching perhaps skews our views, perhaps even subconsciously. That is to say, after years of watching 23 year-olds playing 16 year-olds, it is a easy to forget how truly young someone is when they are an actual 15 or 16 and don't just play one on tv. If nothing else, from tv and the movies, you'd think no one gets pimples anymore.

EDIT-- I cross posted with Ann. Well, that would have to be one cool 15 year-old. Unfortunately, it typically takes about 20 years of living to become a cool 15 year-old, so they are rare.

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Choices - Jan 21, 2005 10:42 am (#327 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think you would not worry so much about your 15 year old daughter dating a 19 year old guy....as long as she could whip out her wand and stun the heck out of him for any wrong move. LOL

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Catherine - Jan 21, 2005 11:05 am (#328 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
My brain wants to remember that Ron identified Krum as 18. (Catherine? If you will, please.) Loopy Lupin

No problem. From GoF, page 83, Ron speaking about Krum: "He's really young too. Only just eighteen or something."

I'm inclined to believe Ron, because he is such an avid Quidditch fan and seems to follow the sport.

Loopy's point about TV shows and movies distorting our perception of teenagers is a good one.

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Loopy Lupin - Jan 21, 2005 11:29 am (#329 of 1858)

Thank you Catherine. Smile From the actual canon though, it would not seem out of the realm of possibility that "just eighteen or something" could mean that he was, in fact, still only 17. Ron didn't realize that he was still in school so he wasn't a fan on the order of, say, some of us when it comes to Dan, Emma or Rupert. (Note the first name basis.) Often times, even the most avid sports fan will not, necessarily, know birthdates and so forth.

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Catherine - Jan 21, 2005 12:57 pm (#330 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Agreed. I was using that quote to say imply that I did not think that Krum was as old as 19 in GoF. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

I think the 17 going on 18 much more likely. He could have a birthday with similar timing to Hermione's, perhaps turning 18 early in the school year.

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mike miller - Jan 22, 2005 9:47 am (#331 of 1858)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
I can't beleive it, when I don't check this thread a discussion of Harry and Tonks breaks out! Until proven otherwise, I remain the Captain of the Harry/Tonks 'ship. Thanks for remembering Vlad. Since I'm the only one on board, there's plenty of room. Steve? Ann? Vlad?

To make one thing clear, I place the Harry/Tonks 'ship after the end of book 7, after Harry's first years as an Auror. The ages of 25 and 32 look about right for the romance to begin. I don't think we can apply any assumptions based upon "normal" people when it comes to Harry. Also, I don't think JKR will even bring up the subject until the infamous last chapter of book seven. I just don't see any of Harry's age group to be a good fit. He doesn't need to marry Ginny to be part of the Weasley family, he already is! Pansy is the only possible exception because of it's possibility as a plot device (tips hat to Marcus). Even if a Pansy/Harry 'ship does become a part of the books, I don't see it as long term, just there to advance the uniting of the houses plot line. It's Tonks for long term happiness!

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I Am Used Vlad - Jan 22, 2005 10:12 am (#332 of 1858)

I Am Almighty!
Sorry, mike, but I can't support a 'ship for Harry if I'm not going to be able to read about it until the last chapter of book 7. Personally, Ginny would have had me at His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad.

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mike miller - Jan 22, 2005 10:35 am (#333 of 1858)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
That's O.K. Vlad, I'm used to sailing alone on this one!

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Eponine - Jan 22, 2005 10:41 am (#334 of 1858)

The only way I could see Harry's 'ship being revealed in the epilogue is if it was one of his fellow students. It would have to be someone who we see him interacting with on a fairly regular basis. I would want to see a close relationship and hints of their feelings towards each other. I don't see that happening with someone who is not in close proximity to Harry.

If JKR simply said, 'And Harry fell in love with Tonks when he was 25 and lived happily ever after', I would feel extremely cheated. There's no pay-off for the reader for his 'ship to come out of nowhere in the epilogue. In literary relationships, there has to be foreshadowing, and hints of what's to come.

Besides, JKR has said that Harry would be receiving another kiss or two, but she wasn't going to say who the kisser was going to be, she's also said that he'd be busy, but what's life without a little romance. These statements make me feel that he will be somewhat involved with someone in the next two books. You might argue that Harry and his mystery date will not last, but what would be the purpose of the relationship then? He has already had one failed relationship (if you can call it that), and I don't think he's going to be going through another one. This isn't real life, it's literature. Harry had to go through that disaster with Cho in order for him to be able to move on to his 'real' relationship. (That was the ONLY correct prediction I had made for OotP).

I believe that Harry's 'ship will be developed slowly, but that there will be a definite relationship in place before the epilogue.

Oh, and I have a question for Marcus, if you're there. According to a statement Tom Felton made back in July, Pansy is not going to be in the GoF movie. If you look at the dance rehearsal sheet that is posted on Mugglenet, the girl who played her in PoA is not his partner, nor is she listed on the IMDB. I know that by the time the movie comes out, HBP will be out, but if it's true that she isn't appearing in the movie, does that do anything to your theory?

Edit: Wow! I think that's the longest post I've ever made.

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Choices - Jan 22, 2005 11:22 am (#335 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I can just see it now - Harry falls in love and marries Tonks at age 25 and they have lots of kids with.....wait a minute, their hair color is changing, and their eye color and their appearance. Yikes, they are all metamorphmagi like their mother. LOL

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mike miller - Jan 22, 2005 12:17 pm (#336 of 1858)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Eponine - I think Harry will have some interaction with his fellow students, even perhaps another trip to Madame Puddifoot's. I think Harry will have other things of greater import on his mind during the final 2 books. No time for anything serious. We need the relief of Voldemort's ultimate downfall before Harry will be able to relax enough for a serious relationship. Tonks will be there for Harry throughout the remainder of the story, being his friend and supporting him through his trials. It will only come later that they have stronger feelings for each other.

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Eponine - Jan 22, 2005 1:32 pm (#337 of 1858)

But what would be the point of having Harry go through non-serious relationships in the books? What purpose would it serve?

I agree that he will have greater things on his mind than whether or not (insert girl of choice) likes him, but it's my belief that he will develop serious feelings for someone while still in school.

The main reason I don't think Harry's ship will ultimately be revealed in the epilogue is because it is cheating the readers. From a literary standpoint, there has to be foreshadowing and hints of feelings. If in the epilogue, Harry is revealed to have settled down with say, Padma, with absolutely no set-up, the average reader is going to want to know how that happened. If we find out that he settled down and had 12 children with someone whom he has developed a friendship, but had shown no signs of romantic interest towards, the readers are going to want to know how that happened. However, if Harry has been shown to have a close relationship with someone including even small bits of romantic interest, it's much easier to accept that he fell in love with said person. That's why I don't think that his final relationship will be sprung on us in the epilogue. He may not develop a serious relationship with anyone while in school, but for it to be revealed in the epilogue, there have to be clues pointing to his feelings.

Oh, and incidentally, I think the only way Harry would step foot into Madam Puddifoots again would be if you dragged him kicking and screaming. That's not to say he won't have a date, just please, not there!

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mike miller - Jan 22, 2005 1:54 pm (#338 of 1858)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Eponine - I guess I agree with just about everything you said in your post. If I were Harry you would not get me back in Madame Puddifoot's either! I agree that we will need to see some hints as to who Harry has true feelings for during the final 2 books and I don't think JKR will drop a bombshell on us in the epilogue. I think there are a few signs that Tonks has feeling for Harry, probably more of "big sister" feelings right now, and, I don't think she would ever "cross the line" while Harry is still "under age". However, she is one of the only characters who JKR makes a point of calling out as treating Harry as just another person and not "the boy who lived".

As far as having "non-serious relationships" with other students goes, I don't think 'ships are integral to the story and I don't think JKR makes a big deal about them (possible exception of Ron and Hermione). Also, I think most people go through many relationships before finding the one that becomes their true life partner.

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Wand Maker - Jan 22, 2005 1:59 pm (#339 of 1858)

But what would be the point of having Harry go through non-serious relationships in the books? What purpose would it serve? -- Eponine

It fills out the story. Who knows? A relationship, however superficial may be a lead to another part of the plot.

I think that Jo includes alot of what she does include because she is trying to keep the story real - kids do go through these things. I think that is why these books are so enjoyable to read - we can picture ourselves as characters in the books.

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Eponine - Jan 22, 2005 2:02 pm (#340 of 1858)

Also, I think most people go through many relationships before finding the one that becomes their true life partner. - Mike Miller

Most people do, but not a lot of fictional characters do.

Well, except for characters in teen romance series, but that's a completely different genre.

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Solitaire - Jan 22, 2005 10:37 pm (#341 of 1858)

what would be the point of having Harry go through non-serious relationships in the books? What purpose would it serve?

It would serve the same purpose it serves for us all ... it's part of growing up. Unless book 7 encompasses more than the final year at Hogwarts, Harry will only be not quite 18 when the book ends. That is awfully young to marry, particularly for someone like Harry, who has led such a difficult life. I would expect him to have at least a couple of more serious romances before he settles down.

Harry's parents certainly married early ... but is there any evidence the rest of the WW does so on a widespread basis? Given their longer lifespans, it would seem they could marry considerably later and still have time for children.

I've often assumed the war had something to do with the Potters' early marriage. If Lily's parents were dead by the time she finished school, she would not have had a home to go to. If she and James were in love and planning to be married eventually anyway, early marriage probably made sense for her. Also, if it turns out that the Potters are in Gryffindor's line of descent, he and Lily may have wanted to have children early ... in case something happened to him during the war. (This is a big IF, I admit, and it is just idle speculation.)

While I think Tonks is still a bit too old for Harry right now--and even in two years--I could see them being about right once he hits his mid-twenties. I think it is quite possible that Tonks could play a growing role in the books, in which case a relationship might seem natural, if they spend a lot of time together.

I know a few couples who were very close friends and never thought of each other as potential mates. Then one day they got a jolt. Something someone else said or did made them look at each other through different eyes. They suddenly saw things they'd either not noticed or had taken for granted, and ... zap! They realized they'd loved each other for years, and ... they got married. It happens, even in Real Life.

Solitaire

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mike miller - Jan 23, 2005 7:23 am (#342 of 1858)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Solitaire - I could not have said it better!

There is no one in Harry's age group who has the strength of character to match up with Harry. I'm a Ron/Hermione 'shipper so that let the only possible exception off the list. I know the supporters of each possible pairing would disagree, so this is just my opinion. Tonks, although we don't know that much about her, we do know that she has good sense of humor and doesn't take herself too seriously. Since Harry's entire life so far has been more than serious, the lightheartedness would provide a welcome balance. Also, growing up a metamorphmagus undoubtedly had an impact on her character. Perhaps the strongest link to Tonks is JKR's own statements about no one getting it quite right as yet and that the pairing will be central to the theme of the story. Tonks does not treat Harry as though he is special, no predetemined ideas based on blood, just who he is on the inside.

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Ann - Jan 23, 2005 9:15 am (#343 of 1858)

I don't know, Mike. I think Ginny is a pretty strong character, too. And even Luna has a certain inner strength in her ability to be herself without apology and without letting the opinions of others depress her. Tonks is an after-Hogwarts possibility (though I'd expect Harry to show some interest in her before the end of the narrative), but she is by no means the only solution.

Here's an idea--Harry gets involved with Pansy, for all the reasons Marcus has raised, and as a result he makes friends and allies in Slytherin, uniting the houses. And then...Pansy betrays him (early family influence would come into play) and Harry realizes that Tonks (another Slytherin, perhaps?) is the only one for him.

(Just kidding, Marcus! Really! After all, I've never thought that uniting the houses was the central theme of the books--not big enough--and I think JKR's remark about fan site speculations was not about 'ships.)

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mike miller - Jan 23, 2005 9:32 am (#344 of 1858)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Ann - Well said! To be honest, I received an odd "vibe" when I first read the Tonks character, but it does seem to be a long shot. I continue to Captain the 'ship just to keep options open and just in case my early "vibe" might by some strange fate be correct. I think it is, at least, possible to paint a reasonable picture of how a Harry/Tonks 'ship could work out; however, even I don't think it's the leading possibility.

Keeping the debate alive...

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Eponine - Jan 23, 2005 9:38 am (#345 of 1858)

What I meant was, from a literary standpoint, what would be the point of having Harry go through casual relationships? I understand that dating is a part of growing up, but I fail to see how Harry having frivolous relationships adds to the plot of the books. Why would JKR have him go out with multiple girls, or even just a couple if nothing is to come from it? So we can watch him be uncomfortable and awkward on dates? I don't want these books to turn into who's dating whom.

He's already had his failed relationship which was necessary. I think his experience with Cho is going to turn him off dating someone based on how shiny her hair is. Harry is not a normal teenager because of his circumstances, and I doubt he's going to be concerned about the latest coffee flavor at Madam Puddifoots so he can take his flame of the week there. In my opinion, Harry is going to steer clear of any type of dating for a while, and he is going to think long and hard before he enters into any type of relationship.

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Ann - Jan 23, 2005 9:55 am (#346 of 1858)

I don't know, Eponine. There are lots of purposes a relationship can serve in the plot. Cho wasn't just shiny hair--she was tied up with lessons for Harry about Cedric and grieving, about the difference in his own feelings for Cho and Hermione, about comparative loyalties in the case of Marietta. Relationships with girls are extremely important at that age, and I can see one or even two more that teach him a lot and yet don't work out. But I can also see (as perhaps more likely) a very serious and real love developing that will deepen Harry's understanding of love and his ability to love, which is after all his principal strength against Voldemort.

And from Harry's own point of view, while I don't see him going back to Madam Puddifoot's anytime soon (unless someone he loves very much wants him to--though that's hard to picture), I do think he's enjoyed parts of his thing with Cho, and that he knows how to value the pleasure of romance and how good he feels about himself when a young woman has romantic feeling for him. He has yet to learn (or even witness, I think) the tremendous emotional support such relationships can offer, and I suspect that learning this, either first hand or (I suspect) observing it in the case of Ron and Hermione, will be a major lesson for him in HBP.

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ema fewett - Jan 23, 2005 10:19 am (#347 of 1858)

Here's what I think will happen to Harry. In the sixth year he'll like someone(I have my opinion on who he'll like but I wont say) but wont really ask her out until the last book. Somehow, I have the opinion that whoever he likes in the end will probably die since Voldemort like killing away all of the people closest to Harry.

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Solitaire - Jan 23, 2005 11:10 am (#348 of 1858)

I fail to see how Harry having frivolous relationships adds to the plot of the books

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I said Harry needed to have frivolous relationships. I certainly do not see his relationship with Cho as frivolous, even though it did not last. It was a first crush, and that is an important rite of passage. However, for Cho this relationship was about different issues. She had apparently had a serious relationship with Cedric. In a way, I think she may have been trying to "recapture" that relationship through Harry--since he had been with Cedric when he died--rather than seeing Harry in his own right. I believe she liked Harry well enough as a friend, but I think it was his relationship to Cedric--and not Harry himself--which caused her to "seek" a romance with him.

Having grown up with a very weird model (IMHO) of what marriage is--in Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon--Harry has a lot to learn about what makes healthy relationships. He may need to experience some different kinds of relationships in order to learn what he needs to learn. He is at the right age to date a bit and see how he gets on with women who have different personalities than Hermione and Cho, the only two "women" with whom he has had serious interaction. By that I mean that Cho is his only romance to date, and Hermione is certainly his longest-term female friendship.

Luna and Ginny are also in the "relationship ring," but Ginny seems to be more about casual dating (completely appropriate at her age) at the moment. Luna ... well, she may feel things intensely enough, but her "tepid," matter-of-fact surface reactions don't seem to jibe with Harry's gut-wrenching responses. Okay, so this could be an "opposites attract or complement" issue. I admit that. HOWEVER, people like Harry--who do become wound up over things--can tend to feel that those who do not respond with equal passion don't really care. (I speak from personal experience here, so please don't tell me I'm wrong!)

The bottom line is that Harry still has a lot to discover within himself. I think he may need a bit more experience with and exposure to different kinds of temperaments before he settles on the woman who will be his life partner. JM2K ...

Solitaire

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Eponine - Jan 23, 2005 11:27 am (#349 of 1858)

I didn't mean that his experience with Cho was frivolous. It was absolutely necessary. Harry had to experience that first crush. He had to have the disaster of a relationship with her because he needed to realize that relationships are based on more than just a pretty face. Before he asked her to the ball in GoF, he had spoken to her one time I believe. She made his stomach tingle, and that was about it. I do agree with you about her motivations.

I suppose I shouldn't have used the word frivolous. I guess I really meant casual relationships. I just don't see Harry as the type to be casually dating different girls. I also don't see what it would bring to the books that various friendships could not. He can be exposed to different girls and their temperments without having to date them. I agree that he needs more experience before he develops his 'ship, but I don't see why that experience needs to be of a romantic nature. I just don't think it fits with the tone of the books.

Otherwise, we can just agree to disagree. =)

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Loopy Lupin - Jan 23, 2005 11:36 am (#350 of 1858)

To make one thing clear, I place the Harry/Tonks 'ship after the end of book 7, after Harry's first years as an Auror.-- mike

I have to agree that by the time Harry is 25 and Tonks is 32, the "Eww" factor of 15 to 22 has dissapated completely. In the interest of disclosure, my law school roomate was 23 when he met his 30 year-old, soon to be wife. Baby #2 is currently on the way.

So, with my primary objection out of the way, I agree with Eponine. The 'Ships aren't even my major concern really (they're just more fun to argue about on this Forum), but I too will feel cheated and disappointed if Harry's final relationship develops in an epilogue. It would be one thing if JKR had chosen to make these characters oblivious to crushes and dating. That wouldn't have been particularly realistic, but it could have been understandable given the other pressing matters. But since she's taken us through a disastrous first crush, she owes us better romance than a quick tie up, so to speak. The difference is between "showing" and "telling." After showing us the whole Cho progression, don't just cop out by telling us how Harry's love life ends. (Not to say that one's love life "ends" with marriage, but that's another topic altogether.)

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 351 to 400)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:40 am

Catherine - Jan 23, 2005 1:16 pm (#351 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
(Not to say that one's love life "ends" with marriage, but that's another topic altogether.) --Loopy Lupin

LOL, Loopy! Let's just say it begins...

I'd agree with your post, including that the "Ewww" factor dissapates as Harry ages, if he is meant to end up with an older person.

I'd rather see Tonks solidfy the big sister role she seems to play with Ginny and Hermione by having her marry Charlie and become part of the Weasley family. I'm sure that Molly will groan at the idea of having Tonks' "help" in the kitchen when they get together for family meals and holidays.

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 23, 2005 8:10 pm (#352 of 1858)

I was under the impression that JKR let on that Harry was going to have short-lived romances in at least book 6 & possibly 7 too. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I would like to nominate either Hannah Abbott or Susan Bones as the girl in question, and I think that it is either one of these who will seek him out.

1) There is a connection of sorts between Susan and Harry (the Madame Bones/Susan patronus question) - he was more than just a pinup boy even before the DA began.

2) With regards to Hannah, I think I recall her being sympathetic in CoS to the degree of (negative) attention he was receiving (I could be wrong!).

3) Both of them know who he is and are (through joining the DA) sympathetic to his cause. At least one of them and possibly both engaged Malfoy & Co. at the end of OotP.

4) It makes sense for Harry to have a 'casual' relationship (short-lived girlfriend with a relatively painless "disengagement") with someone who does not carry emotional overtones.

Hermione is too close to the bone (even if the R/Hr shippers are wrong).

Ginny carries emotional baggage of a different sort (Ron's sister; the debt she owes him for saving her life in CoS).

Luna? Possibly, but Luna moved into the "inner circle" after the MoM battle, whereas both Hannah and Susan are still on the periphery.

5) It makes even more sense for the girl in question to be from Hufflepuff (Hannah is, and I think Susan is as well). He's gone out with a Ravenclaw with disastrous results, and I don't think another one (except Luna) is going to go near him for a while. Slytherin is lacking in contenders for the time being (unless Pansy changes pretty quick), and the Gryffindors are either too close to him (Hermione, Ginny) or for the most part fluffheads (Lavender, etc) with no concept of what Harry is going through.

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Solitaire - Jan 24, 2005 12:51 am (#353 of 1858)

I too will feel cheated and disappointed if Harry's final relationship develops in an epilogue

The problem here is that if Harry remains unmarried until he is in his mid-20s (not unheard of, even in the WW), his relationship will probably develop sometime after he leaves Hogwarts, and we will not get to see this happen ... unless the final book covers more than just his 7th year at Hogwarts. Does this make sense?

It seems unrealistic to think that Harry will maintain a 5-6 year dating relationship with someone until his mid-20s. So ... if you want him married to the person he is dating in his last year at Hogwarts, I suggest he will marry young, like his parents did ... unless he just loves really, REALLY long engagements!

If we read in the epilogue that Harry and several of the kids we know continued to work together and do various things together--like normal friends often do--then finding he eventually wound up with one of the women in the group would seem natural.

I really hope 'ships do not become a major focus of the books. They are okay in small doses, but these kids are about so much more than that. One of the things which sets the HP books apart from others is the fact that our heroes are concerned about and actually involved in matters that are more significant than the latest clothing trends and who is dating whom.

Solitaire

Edit: Muggle Doc, Hannah and Susan were both a part of the group that defended Harry on the train ... that may bring them in a bit closer to him.

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Snuffles - Jan 24, 2005 7:13 am (#354 of 1858)

Olivia
Not sure whether to put this here but here goes: In COS Harry gets a valentine message which says "His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad, his hair is as black as a blackboard, I wish he was mine, he's really divine, the hero who conquered the dark lord." I dont think we ever found out who sent it and i think we were meant to think it was Ginny as she was nearby, but, the only people we here calling LV the dark lord are Slytherins. i.e Severus and Malfoy and Lucius. Could this mean whoever sent it is in Slytherin? Just a thought........ P.S. if anyone thinks this should be somewhere else please feel free.

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Choices - Jan 24, 2005 10:46 am (#355 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think we were meant to think that Ginny sent it - she was still very infatuated with Harry in COS. It is my belief that she did send it as I can't see what point there would have been in it coming from a Slytherin. It was never revealed in that book who the sender was, if it wasn't Ginny, and as of book 5 we still haven't been told it was anyone else, so after all this time I can't see what difference it would make.

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Eponine - Jan 24, 2005 11:04 am (#356 of 1858)

If it wasn't Ginny, then I think it might have been the twins for a joke. I don't really think it would make a difference though.

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Steve Newton - Jan 24, 2005 11:07 am (#357 of 1858)

Librarian
The only thing of interest that I recall of the singing telegram was that it was sung by dwarves. Have we seen them anywhere else? Offhand I can't remember any other mentions. I could be way wrong. It's happened before.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jan 24, 2005 11:41 am (#358 of 1858)

Perhaps Riddle helped Ginny with the rhyme. She was writing to him in the diary all year, telling him her secrets, including that she had a crush on Harry Potter.

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Solitaire - Jan 24, 2005 11:42 am (#359 of 1858)

Very Good, Mrs Brisbee. I have wondered the same thing ...

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 24, 2005 1:35 pm (#360 of 1858)

I think for something like a poem, the use of the phrase "Dark Lord" to describe Voldemort means nothing about the allegiance of the person who wrote it - they were just looking for something that rhymed!

Even the most goody two-shoes Gryffindor has to admit that the title of Dark Lord (interpreted as "Lord of Darkness") is one that Voldemort deserves. Much like calling Darth Vader the Dark Lord of the Sith does not mean that you willingly submit to his power.

On the other hand, maybe it can be taken as support for the Harry/Pansy ship!

Pansy to her diary: How can I bear it? How can I confess to Draco, who swept me so magnificently off my feet when we first started at Hogwarts together, that the truest secret passion of my heart is Harry Potter? And yet, how can I go on loving a total loser? :-p

Only joking. Go Hannah/Susan!

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Eric Bailey - Jan 24, 2005 2:44 pm (#361 of 1858)

Hmm, if it wasn't Ginny... Could be just about anyone of the first and second year girls at the time. The wording and rhyming fit an 11 year old Luna, but she doesn't seem the type to moon over anyone, or the hero worship type.

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Choices - Jan 25, 2005 7:40 pm (#362 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Eric - that is what bothers me about Ginny sending it. I think she did, as all indications point to her, but it does seem out of character for her. She is so shy around Harry and I find it difficult to believe she would call attention to herself like that. Also, it (the poem) was sort of silly and I don't think Ginny is the silly type - naive yes, but not silly. It occurred to me that perhaps Tom Riddle made her do it and she was terribly embarrassed over it.

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Solitaire - Jan 26, 2005 1:37 am (#363 of 1858)

Choices, I think that is quite likely. After all of the info she has told him--remember this is February, so she has been pouring herself into this diary for about half the year--he undoubtedly knows that Harry is the one credited with having stopped him. I have no trouble at all believing it was Riddle who had Ginny send the Valentine.

Solitaire

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 26, 2005 2:26 pm (#364 of 1858)

Let me correct myself on my Harry/Hufflepuff suggestion a few posts back - Hannah in fact was defending Harry against Ernie MacMillan's conspiracy theories (to paraphrase "but he's always seemed so nice... and he's the one who made (Voldemort) disappear in the first place." - okay, I was lazy and watched the deleted scenes on the DVD rather than read the book, but I know it was very similar).

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Gryffindor Ghost - Jan 27, 2005 6:10 am (#365 of 1858)

Hi!

I'm back, after a hiatus of more than...lets see - a month? More than a month, actually. So I've missed a lot of posts (naturally) and I haven't the time to read all, but I'll try to keep pace.

Oh by the way, where are all my shipmates gone? Sir Tornado, The One, Coolbeans, etc., are you still there?

With regards to the Harry/Hufflepuff thing, I don't think it will happen, since none of the Hufflepuff girls are really that close to Harry, and none of them are that important as well. Susan Bones, for instance, was mentioned in Book One, but has never graced the pages of the Harry Potter until Book Five. Hannah Abbott, for her part, also plays a fairly significant but rather obscure role. Sure, Ms. Rowling has mentioned her a few times, but those instances are not so important in the main storyline, anyway (or so I think, because for all we know, Ms. Rowling might create much bigger roles for Hannah, Susan, and all those ever-present-but-not-that-important characters. Remember Scabbers?). The point is, none of the Hufflepuff girls have reached a level of importance and closeness to Harry, (like Hermione or Ginny for instance), and none of them had any sort of history with Harry, so I think Harry ending up with a Hufflepuff girl is, thus far, not probable.

Lemme know wat'cha think...

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coolbeans3131 - Jan 27, 2005 6:30 am (#366 of 1858)

Welcome back Gryffindor Ghost! I agree about Harry ending up with a character we barely know being improbable. I for one though, put Ginny in that group. After being in all the books, we know barely anything about her. I just can't see it happening.

I know we didn't know Cho very well either, but that wasn't meant to be. If Harry were to fall for Ginny, it wouldn't be two dates and then over. If Harry were to fall for Ginny or Hermione, it would be for the long haul, if Harry lives for the long haul. If he ended up with anyone else, I don't think it would be for the long haul. Either Harry will die, or he'll stay alone.

This is my opinion, of course. I also don't really like Ginny, so there is that bias too. I was ok with the thought of H/G until OotP. I found I like Ginny less since this one came out, and see much less possibility of them getting together now. I know that's the opposite reaction most people had. I also HATE Ron and Hermione's bickering. It drives me mad! (I was in total agreement with and cheering Harry on when he told them to knock it off) I'm sure that is why I don't see R/H happening.

I fell in love with a friend in high school and we just celebrated our 16th wedding anniversary. Maybe that's why I see H/H when I read the books.

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 27, 2005 2:40 pm (#367 of 1858)

I never said it was Harry/Hannah or Harry/Susan sailing off into the sunset - just that there might be a brief romantic fling in there: sort of like Harry/Cho Mark II but without all the angst and with a happier ending (and beginning, and middle).

Let me reiterate my position. He needs (and as I understood from things I have read, he is fated to have) a short snuggly relationship with a girl which, when it comes unglued at the end, won't have major consequences: Hannah and Susan fit the bill.

I can imagine the ungluing coming after a really harrowing ending to the book (possibly with a few deaths thrown in for good measure).

"Sorry, Harry; I can't keep this up. I can't spend all my time thinking I'm going to lose you. I... I guess my feelings for you aren't that strong. It doesn't mean we can't be friends." (Those immortal words! - MD) "It just means that's all we can be."

"In other words, you don't want to end up like Cho did with Cedric."

"Yes; yes, I suppose that's what I'm saying. Sorry." The tearful girl slunk off, sobbing. Harry watched her go with a horrid sickness in his heart.

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Tomoé - Jan 27, 2005 4:13 pm (#368 of 1858)

Back in business
It's not because we don't see much of the Hufflepuff girls and they are not yet really that close to Harry that we can rule them out. We had only a line about the Lovegood family before OoP "the Lovegoods have been [at the QWC] for a week already", yet they have been crutial for OoP.

In HbP, Harry will be in a very emotive state of mind, it will be a very hard period of his life, full of questions, doubts and grief, if any background girl step forth and help him to go through, she'll likely become his significant one. If a girl can stick to him while he's sad almost all the time and not very talkative and often longing to be alone, she won't leave if he refuse to dance (Parvati) or don't want to tell her the worst day of his life (Cho).

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 27, 2005 6:59 pm (#369 of 1858)

Point taken - and on this basis, the best candidate is Luna Lovegood. Second best (but not far behind) is probably Susan Bones. At least she's lost large numbers of her family to Death Eaters and can see Harry's viewpoint, both in terms of the price of reflected fame (i.e. not all it's cut out to be, especially when you didn't ask for it) and the loss of loved ones. On this basis, I think she'd be prepared to sit quietly with him and reflect. The fact that her aunt has a reasonable chance of becoming the next Minister of Magic (for debate elsewhere) doesn't hurt at all - the best thing Harry needs in terms of friends, beyond the human understanding, is association with someone who(se family) is highly regarded and well placed in the Ministry without being evil (any Malfoy) or a stuck-up git (Percy).

Much as I'm becoming a bit of a Hannah fan, I think she's a little further down the list: I'm not sure JK's shown her to have the empathy, patience and understanding that Harry requires in a girlfriend (of any description). Susan at least has shown she cares ("I don't know how you cope [with the unwanted attention]; it's horrible!" while being so distracted that she mucks up her Herbology - OOTP). All we know about Hannah is that she thought Harry was "nice" and offered counter-points to Ernie's conspiracy theory in CoS. (I've done a lot of reading between the lines from OOTP to counter this shallowness, but interpolation is all it is, and it isn't canon until JKR writes it.)

Still, Rowling has done left-field things before (and tragic ones); the presence of a relatively uninvolved (Hufflepuff, no known family members dead) fragile soul like Hannah (remember her pre-exam breakdown?) crumpled dead at Voldemort's feet may be all Harry needs to put aside any hesitation to destroy him (recall that Harry keeps on using the word "murder" for what one must eventually do to the other).

Hannah seems to spend a good deal of time in Ernie's company, although whether they're BF/GF or just good friends without romantic tension isn't clear to us (because it isn't clear to Harry). I find it interesting that almost the only non-smut romantic fics I've read about Hannah are either post second-war (whenever that finishes) or post-NEWT/graduation, and none of them involve Ernie (unless they're unrequited), perhaps because he is too obvious a choice?

It would be nice to read the first couple of chapters of Book 6 and then make these predictions in the light of that knowledge - the eventual reaction of the other DA members to Harry when he returns to school is going to have a big influence on my thoughts.

Rather interesting, I thought, was Molly Weasley's cold attitude to Hermione (GoF) when she thought H/Hr was a going thing, which then reversed when Harry denied it - this indicates to me that Molly either wants Harry for Ginny, or Hermione for Ron (probably the former, and maybe the latter as well).

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I Am Used Vlad - Jan 27, 2005 7:37 pm (#370 of 1858)

I Am Almighty!
Wasn't Molly angry because she thought Hermione was two-timing Harry with Krum. I don't think Molly would mistreat any of the kids because she disagreed with their romantic choices. That's just not like her.

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KWeldon - Jan 27, 2005 8:41 pm (#371 of 1858)

Wasn't Molly angry because she thought Hermione was two-timing Harry with Krum

That was my impression, too.

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Tomoé - Jan 27, 2005 9:59 pm (#372 of 1858)

Back in business
My two knuts about the Hufflepuff girls.

Susan did lost a large number of family members the Death Eaters, but she likely don't remember any of these. Losing uncles, aunts and cousins at the age of 2 (which is the maxium she could have been) have very little to do with losing one of your best friend at the age of 16. Plus, she couldn't understand Harry's feeling until she was placed in almost the same situation. Another interesting fact, Christ Columbus asked Jo what character is Americain daughter could play, she anwsered Susan Bones. So I don't think she'll be Harry's girl. (I have been wrong before though).

On the other hand, Hannah shown her empathy, patience and understanding three times already, when she took Harry defence against Ernie in CoS; when she pitied Eloise Midgeon's troubles with her acne and when she supported Cedric, outshadowed by Harry (remember the Daily Prophet didn't even mention Cedric). She also almost discover Sirius's hiding trick, she have a good intuition. Yes, she was very nervous for her OWL (and with 8-hours-of-study-a-day Ernie always around, it's no wonder), but it didn't prevent her to act efficently went Harry was about to be hexed from behind.

Here's a couple of quotes:

'He always seems so nice, though,' said Hannah uncertainly, 'and, well, he's the one who made You Know Who disappear. He can't be all bad, can he?' (UK CoS ch.11 pp.148-149)

The school talked of nothing but Sirius Black for the next days. The theories about how he had entered the castle became wilder and wilder; Hannah Abbott, from Hufflepuff, spent much of their next Herbology class telling anyone who'd listen that Black could turn into a flowering shrub. (UK PoA ch.9 p.125)

'Like poor Eloise Midgeon,' said Hannah Abbott, a hufflepuff, in a hushed voice. 'She tried to curse hers off.'
'Silly girl,' said Professor Sprout, shaking her head. (UK GoF ch.13 p.173)

I'm not saying Hannah have to become Harry's girl, just that her odds are longer than Susan's.

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 27, 2005 11:00 pm (#373 of 1858)

Edited by Mare Jan 28, 2005 2:05 am
Susan probably doesn't remember the dead ones too well, true, but then neither does Harry really remember his parents (when you count out help from Dementors reliving the worst bits and Snape's penseive helping him visualise his father's worst schoolyard behaviour). She's mostly running on "I don't want to be famous (notorious?) around school because of my uncles and grandparents getting murdered." And consider this: unlike Harry's 'caretakers' who lied and concealed the truth from him, she was raised in the Wizarding World with no secrets. She's probably heard a great deal about what happened to the missing members, the surviving spouses or whatever are no doubt reminders of what was lost, and even a two year old can comprehend that someone much loved who was there, now is not.

(Oh, why am I defending Susan? I want Hannah to get Harry!)

(Muggle doctor, I'm not sure if we allow **** words on the forum. Just to be on the sure side, I took it out. If you have any questions, feel free to mail me.)

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Mare - Jan 28, 2005 3:03 am (#374 of 1858)

Don't worry, Susan will not end up with Harry. she's ment to be with Neville. Point!

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Gryffindor Ghost - Jan 28, 2005 3:57 am (#375 of 1858)

I think Susan lost an entire family of relatives, her Uncle Edgar and his family, if my memory serves me right. (Moody told Harry this during after dinner at 12 GP, while Moody was showing Harry the old photo of the original OotP.

But the point here is that, even if Susan or Hannah fall for Harry, I don't think it's possible that Harry would fall for them. I mean, he literally fell in love with (or rather, developed a crush on) Cho the first time he saw her, right? Well, Harry's been seeing these girls for nearly six years but he had never really shown interest in Hannah or Susan (or any other girl for that matter, apart from Cho and Hermione). Hey, hey, don't freak out yet! I'm including Hermione on that because she's the one girl closest to Harry, and Harry once said that he didn't think Hermione was ugly! Though perhaps he's not aware of it, Harry starts to notice Hermione more and more in Book Five than he did in the last four books. Just look at the way Harry describes Hermione's actions, expressions, etc. (or rather, the way Ms. Rowling describes Hermione through Harry's eyes). The adjectives and adverbs are getting more vivid and descriptive, not to mention more frequent. That's got to mean something, right? I mean, Ms. Rowling was a former teacher, and she's very particular with semantics, so let us expect that every word, phrase, and sentence we read off the pages of her books were carefully chosen and well planned.

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 30, 2005 6:45 pm (#376 of 1858)

Gryffindor Ghost wrote:

But the point here is that, even if Susan or Hannah fall for Harry, I don't think it's possible that Harry would fall for them

Perhaps not, but a school year is a long time. I can't think of anything better for his ego than to have it stroked by a girl from Cedric Diggory's House, who makes it quite clear that the only thing she wants to discuss about Cedric is the fact that Harry could have done nothing to save him. (Now that Harry has given the Quibbler interview, there is no real need for "morbid curiosity" questions.)

It's my bet that Cho isn't the only one who gives him sick "if only I'd done something different / screamed a warning / taken the Goblet without him" feelings on sight. Probably every Hufflepuff does much the same.

My guess is that since Her Foulness Dolores has left, the Yule Ball is back on the agenda and Harry will need someone to go with. The Patil twins are out, Ron will probably ask Hermione very early (this time!), Harry probably won't want to ask Ginny (because she's Ron's sister)... Luna's a good bet, but it would be nice to see someone come out of left-field for a change.

Consider that it offers Draco some really nice teasing opportunities: "Going out with a Hufflepuff, Potter? You must really be slipping." Particularly when that Hufflepuff is someone like Hannah, who's been shown to crack under pressure and might well burst into tears (Ginny would curse Malfoy on the spot; Hermione would simply hit him) and need comforting. OK, so Harry's somewhat clueless, but he IS beginning to learn compassion (viz. his encounter with Luna at the end of 5th year), and might have a better idea this time round of how to cope with a crying girl (the fact that Cho was Cedric's girlfriend before she was Harry's, and Harry felt partially responsible, didn't help either of them).

And then there's Valentine's Day. Given that the school year starts in September, February is over halfway through: plenty of time for something significant to develop, and possibly with someone Harry hasn't considered before.

"I christen this 'ship the HMS Harry/Hufflepuff"

(Because Luna, Ginny and Hermione are too obvious for my liking, and Pansy is not yet likely enough!)

PS: On the matter of the ***** business. This was meant to convey strong feelings, and not any particular word. Really no different from Donald Duck dropping a brick on his foot and having a talk-bubble saying @#%$%#$%@$# or suchlike, surely? I used to read comics with stuff like that in them when I was six!

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Gryffindor Ghost - Jan 30, 2005 8:14 pm (#377 of 1858)

I'm very sorry, Muggle Doctor but I can't see your point.

Do you mean to say that Harry will only date some girl from Hufflepuff because he's guilty at what happened to Cedric? That Harry wants reassurance that the Hufflepuffs aren't blaming him for Cedric's death? No, I think that's quite far-fetched.

Do you remember Ernie Macmillan coming up to Harry in the first Herbology lesson in their fifth year and saying something like, "It's not only weirdos who believe you, Potter... I certainly believe you 100%... My family have always stood firm behind Dumbledore, and so do I"? Or Hannah, Ernie, Susan, and Zacharias Smith coming to learn Defense lessons from Harry, even praising him for what he'd done? If these instances are not clear enough manifestations that the Hufflepuffs don't blame Harry for what happened to Cedric, I don't know what else will be. Harry doesn't need a Hufflepuff girl "who makes it quite clear that the only thing she wants to discuss about Cedric is the fact that Harry could have done nothing to save him. Hermione and Ron can do that. In fact, I believe that Harry is way past the Cedric episode, what with Sirius' death and the prophecy and everything.

Now, regarding the Yule Ball — I really can't believe that people keep thinking that it will be held again at Hogwarts. Hello! The Yule Ball was a part of the Triwizard Tournament, and not a yearly event for Hogwarts students! Anyway, the wizarding world will really be at war in the HBP, so I really don't think that our characters will have the time for such nonsense.

Okay, considering that the Yule Ball do happen, my five Galleons go to Harry and Hermione. Ron, though he had shown interest in Hermione before, will now have second thoughts about asking her. Their relationship, as far as I can see, have not progressed unlike the way Harry and Hermione's did. Harry, who has plainly stated that he doesn't think Hermione was ugly, will probably ask her to go with him this time. You ask me why? He'd just broken up with Cho, and as far as I understand, he's over her. I also think that once Harry had stopped (or at least taken a break from) mourning for Sirius, he'd come to realize how he'd nearly lost Hermione in the DoM battle. He'd come to realize how she had always been there for him, through thick and thin. This, ergo, will make him realize that he'd always (or at least most of the time) taken Hermione for granted. After all, his relationship with her had developed over the last year, and will still develop for the remainder of the series. That's how I see and understand the books, based on the hints and clues laid down by our amazing author, and also based on my own "readings between the lines." It is my belief, therefore, that HBP will clear things up for all of us. Lastly, it is my opinion that your HMS Harry/Hufflepuff, based on canon, will probably not sail.

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Solitaire - Jan 30, 2005 9:27 pm (#378 of 1858)

Gryff Ghost, I think you understood Muggle Doc (unless I did). I think he/she meant that it would be nice for Harry to be able to date a Hufflepuff girl the mere sight of whom didn't cause him to be filled with guilt over what happened to Cedric. Cho was just too close to Cedric. There is no way that anything she said wouldn't dredge up a million upsetting feelings connected to Cedric. She couldn't help it, and neither could Harry. Both of them were looking for different things from that relationship. I just don't think they realized it until it hit them in their respective faces.

Solitaire

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Weeny Owl - Jan 30, 2005 9:34 pm (#379 of 1858)

My guess is that since Her Foulness Dolores has left, the Yule Ball is back on the agenda and Harry will need someone to go with.

I agree with Gryff that not having a Yule Ball wasn't because of Umbridge, but that it was simply a special event for the Triwizard Tournament.

Having said that, I don't see Harry's relationships being based on house affiliation.

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 30, 2005 10:16 pm (#380 of 1858)

Solitaire: you encapsulated my thoughts on Harry dating a Hufflepuff girl nicely (I'm a "he" by the way). If he does go out with one, he needs any mention of Cedric to be an automatic vindication of his actions/inactions (whatever) - which is probably what he'll get if he goes out with the two candidates I've mentioned (both Huff, both DA).

Gryffindor Ghost, I think your theory re. Harry/Hermione is a pretty good one, and it's the reason I was a Harry/Hermy shipper to start. I certainly see no reason for it NOT to happen. At least as a transient thing (book 6 only, say) I'm starting to ship Harry/Hufflepuff the way Marcus backs Pansy (with blind devotion and a bit of hard reasoning - no offence, Marcus). For the long term (post-war, post-book 7) I'm inclined to agree with you: H/Hr looks good if they both survive.

Yes, I agree: Book 6 will resolve all this.

(Of all the HP fics I've read anywhere, whether they be plot-driven, porn-driven, G-rated, R-rated or whatever, "Harry/Hufflepuff girl" is a combination I don't recall seeing - I can't believe that everyone's overlooked it. Maybe that's why I think it's likely to happen: just like JKR to serve up a possibility we've all neglected.)

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Gryffindor Ghost - Jan 31, 2005 1:46 am (#381 of 1858)

Edited by Kip Carter Feb 1, 2005 12:55 am
I have deleted the links to the essays. I realize that you may feel this action unfair; however this Forum is Private, not public, and there are many issues of which I will not get involved in with this edit as to why I will not allow links. If you have any question about my action, please feel free to send me an email; otherwise I would appreciate you not posting links to other sites. - Kip Carter (kip@hp-lexicon.org)

Actually, it's possible, but not likely. As far as canon evidences are concerned, I really don't see a clue that foreshadows a Harry/Hufflepuff pairing.

Like I've said in my earlier post, I think Harry is way past the Cedric episode. I really don't think Harry even dreams about Cedric's death anymore. Maybe he's now over it, and is no longer affected that much, since he has bigger things in his mind.

Okay, here are some essays from the Portkey Forum that might interest the H/Hr skeptics:

Hermione's Love

Harry's Love

Who does Hermione love?

Six Times A Charm: Countdown to the final 'ships

The links open in new windows, so you won't have to leave the HP Lexicon Forum. Just take the time to read, because these essays were well-written and with sufficient canon evidence.

Let me know what you think, okay? Bye for now!

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 31, 2005 4:08 am (#382 of 1858)

Gryff Ghost, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Besides, I like defending the outrageous (I just won't defend Death Nibbler/Muggle-born, DA/DN or Order/DE.)

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narisa - Jan 31, 2005 5:35 am (#383 of 1858)

I don't think Harry will go out with someone only because she is from Hufflepuff.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Jan 31, 2005 7:01 am (#384 of 1858)

Edited by Kip Carter Feb 1, 2005 12:50 am
I have deleted the links to the essays. I realize that you may feel this action unfair; however this Forum is Private, not public, and there are many issues of which I will not get involved in with this edit as to why I will not allow links. If you have any question about my action, please feel free to send me an email; otherwise I would appreciate you not posting links to other sites. - Kip Carter (kip@hp-lexicon.org)

Muggle Doctor, what do you mean, "we will just have to agree to disagree"?

Oh, and here's another essay, by the way:

Hermione cares about what Harry thinks of her

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Catherine - Jan 31, 2005 7:53 am (#385 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Edited Jan 31, 2005 10:32 am
Muggle Doctor, what do you mean, "we will just have to agree to disagree"? --Gryffindor Ghost

Now, I do not claim to speak for Muggle Doctor, but that phrase is usually a nice way to let someone know that you don't really believe in their argument, and are unlikely to change your mind. It's a way to say, "Let's be friendly even though I think that you are wrong."

I will say that I have read most of the latest essay you posted, Gryffindor Ghost. I say "most" because it was very long, and I thought there were parts that were very speculative, so I abandoned reading it.

What part of that essay did you find to be so compelling? It might help us to know specifically what your thoughts are, or to see an argument in your own words.

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Czarina II - Jan 31, 2005 9:12 am (#386 of 1858)

Edited by Kip Carter Feb 1, 2005 12:52 am
I have deleted the links to the essays. I realize that you may feel this action unfair; however this Forum is Private, not public, and there are many issues of which I will not get involved in with this edit as to why I will not allow links. If you have any question about my action, please feel free to send me an email; otherwise I would appreciate you not posting links to other sites. - Kip Carter (kip@hp-lexicon.org)

A new essay on Mugglenet now provides scientific evidence to support Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny. Imagine that! (Not that I need scientific evidence to support my views.) Since we're in the habit of posting links lately, I thought I'd contribute to the mix.

Personally, I think that Harry/Hermione is too much of a literary cop-out (hero gets the most prominent girl). I also don't think Harry would get along with Hermione romantically. Just because she cares about him and he cares about her does NOT lead to romantic attraction. So far, they are platonic friends. It is Ron and Hermione who have a non-platonic relationship now, even if they haven't acted on it yet. Hermione was also the first girl who ever gave two knuts [nods] to Harry. Somehow, pairing Harry off with the girl who he first had a decent conversation with is a bit silly.

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wwtMask - Jan 31, 2005 9:31 am (#387 of 1858)

The only problem I have with that article is that Harry can't technically go for a girl that's like his mother because he has no idea what his mother was really like. I'll agree that it's true that we go for people like our parents, to some extent, but it's just as likely that you won't. My wife, for instance, is more like several of my aunts than like my mother. Aside from being tall and thin like him, I'm nothing like her father. And, at the same time, we have very similar personalities. As a matter of fact, we are best friends. Compare that to Hermione and Harry, who have grown to be very similar in many respects and are best friends now. I guess the point I'm making is that it's really not possible to "scientifically" prove what will or will not attract two people to one another. There is a bit more involved than just similarities to parents and genetic differentiation.

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Catherine - Jan 31, 2005 1:22 pm (#388 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
This recent trend of linking to shipping opinion pieces on other sites needs to stop.

This thread does not need to turn into an evaluation or discussion of non-Forum members' shipping essays.

I see no problem with saying where you read something, or got an idea, or presenting an idea in your own words, and discussing it here, but I don't think we need to be linking whole essays from other sites. I'm concerned that we would be going in the direction of debating the relative worth of the essays rather than the ideas in them, especially if there are many points or issues in the link, it's hard to know what exactly is important.

I didn't see anything in the links above that would violate Forum guidelines, but we have had inappropriate links on the Forum in the past, and it's probably best to refrain from outside links.

In addition, and perhaps most importantly, it would be unfortunate to subject the Forum to liability by linking to whole essays without the author's permission.

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 31, 2005 1:34 pm (#389 of 1858)

Gryffindor Ghost wrote

Muggle Doctor, what do you mean, "we will just have to agree to disagree"?

About Harry/Hufflepuff. I concur with most of your H/Hr argument.

It is a measure of JKR's brilliance that we can support multiple possibilities across the 'shipping world and give quite reasonable justifications for them all (even if all but one turn out to be wrong): were she more predictable, we would be saying things like "Harry/Ginny? Come off it, you know he's destined for Hermione," but she has the power to keep us guessing - at least until the crashing finale (or the long-awaited next book), when we all sit around and scratch our heads and think "Now why the hell didn't I pick that?"

The fact that it all seems so obvious in retrospect is a mark of her talent, and I think most of us wouldn't have it any other way!

Accio book six!

Oh hang on, that's right - I'm only a Muggle. Rats.

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Eric Bailey - Jan 31, 2005 3:31 pm (#390 of 1858)

The concept behind R/Hr + H/G is from a group of fans who are especially fanatical about the Weasley family, seeing them as the End All and Be All, so that anyone important on the good guy side MUST be Weasleys. Therefore, to them, Harry and Hermione MUST marry into the Weasley family. So, Neville, and especially Luna becoming key players in OotP set off alarm bells for these folks. The R/Hr devoted call their ship "The Good Ship", after all. The H/Hr ship was enough of a threat, as far as they were concened, without even more potential romantic interests. Smile

What I find amusing is that the H/Hr suppoerters and the R/Hr supporters use the same reasons to support their ship. Hermione is always bickering with Ron and has a far more easy going relationship with Harry. The R/Hr crowd insists that if they're not constantly bickering it isn't True Love, while the H/Hr folks counter that constant bickering isn't good for a long term relationship.

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Eponine - Jan 31, 2005 3:46 pm (#391 of 1858)

Not everyone who 'ships R/Hr and H/G are fanatic Weasley fans. Nor do they all feel that Harry and Hermione MUST marry into the Weasley family. There are many other reasons people support those two 'ships that don't revolve around the Weasleys.

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Catherine - Jan 31, 2005 3:48 pm (#392 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Well, I will just suggest, by quoting the Bard, "The course of true love never did run smooth."

In so many ways, the Harry/Hermione 'ship makes sense to me, but it seem to me that JKR is laying the foundation for Ron/Hermione. As for me, I rather enjoying their bickering.

EDIT: Excellent point, Eponine about over-generalizing.

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Muggle Doctor - Jan 31, 2005 5:16 pm (#393 of 1858)


Not everyone who 'ships R/Hr and H/G are fanatic Weasley fans. Nor do they all feel that Harry and Hermione MUST marry into the Weasley family.


Not necessarily, no. But the plot device that says "Muggle-born marries pure-blood" puts Ron & Hermione together, and the plot device that says "Harry gets a family that loves him" marries him with Ginny.

(The plot device that says "It ends in a spray of blood for both Voldemort and Harry, with multiple muggle-born and Weasley deaths" negates all of this :-p )

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 31, 2005 6:20 pm (#394 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Muggle Doctor - ...[T]he plot device that says "Harry gets a family that loves him" marries him with Ginny.

You don't think Mom and Dad Parkinson wouldn't be thrilled with their daughter bagging "The Boy who lived"?

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Catherine - Jan 31, 2005 6:42 pm (#395 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
You don't think Mom and Dad Parkinson wouldn't be thrilled with their daughter bagging "The Boy who lived"? --Marcus

Oh, Marcus, how astute of you. I never thought of Harry as a game animal before. You must be referring to his Stag Patronus!

On the other hand, "bagging Harry" has other problems. We don't think that Pansy would display Harry's head on her living room wall, do we?

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 31, 2005 7:15 pm (#396 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Catherine,

Have you not heard the expression, "All's fair in love and war?"

:-)

Marcus

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Gryffindor Ghost - Jan 31, 2005 10:07 pm (#397 of 1858)

Edited by Kip Carter Feb 1, 2005 12:23 am
I have deleted the links to the essays. I realize that you may feel this action unfair; however this Forum is Private, not public, and there are many issues of which I will not get involved in with this edit as to why I will not allow links. If you have any question about my action, please feel free to send me an email; otherwise I would appreciate you not posting links to other sites. - Kip Carter (kip@hp-lexicon.org)

I can personally see no reason not to put links to outside sources. It's not as if we're giving links to porn sites, is it?

Here are some essays from H/Hr's best essayist (IMO), Turambar:

Why would Hermione prefer Ron to Harry?

Now, just have a look objectively at these essays (particularly the second one), and you'll see the consolidated arguments of H/Hr shippers. We believe Harry and Hermione will end up together because the books are so full of clues and hints that they will.

I've read the essay, The Laws of Attraction: How Science Defends R/Hr and H/G ships, and I can say that the arguments don't make sense at all (No offense meant to the author).

For instance, the theory that Ron is attracted to Hermione because she has a strong, almost over-bearing personality like his mother is a rather weak one. Ron absolutely hates being bossed around, and he is somewhat irritated whenever Mrs. Weasley bosses him around. The same is true with Hermione. In fact, the reason why Ron and Hermione always bicker is because Ron reacts negatively to Hermione's fussy and sometimes bossy attitude.

In Harry and Ginny's case, while Harry might have some similarities with Mr. Weasley, Ginny is not at all like Lily (except for the hair). I don't recall an instance where Ginny stands up for Neville which can be compared to Lily's standing up for Snape. Perhaps the author was referring to the train ride where Neville says something like, "I'm nobody" and Ginny retorts, "No, you're not" and introduces him to Luna. In fact, Hermione is more like Lily: they're both Muggle-borns, they both stand up for people, they're both (as far as I can understand) brilliant witches, they're both prefects (Lily was in fact Head Girl).

Now, regarding the foundation Ms. Rowling is laying down for Ron/Hermione, I just don't see it. All I see is red herring in every pro-R/Hr moment. I just can't see Hermione falling for a boy who always disagrees with her, verbally insults her (sometimes, like in Ron's comments about Hermione's elf hats), and cares little for her welfare.

Hermione, for her part, also loses interest in Quidditch once Harry got off the team (even if Ron is still playing). She doesn't think much of Ron's abilities (but she thinks very highly of Harry). She even fell asleep during a party for Ron (but when Harry turned up, she listens attentively to him, expresses relief at an opportunity to leave the party with Harry, and her face was shining with glee when she asks Harry to knit with her (hey, I thought she was tired?).

Oh, wait, what am I doing? Just read the H/Hr, Love and Flying essay, and you'll find all my points there. Turambar really summed them all up. The essay has some nice symbolisms too. Oh, and let me assure you that this essay was well thought out and well-written. It's worth the time and effort.

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Solitaire - Feb 1, 2005 1:01 am (#398 of 1858)

I think a lot of what makes us prefer certain 'ships over other 'ships is connected with what we like or dislike in relationships. I can't stand constant bickering and "picking" at each other, so the Ron/Hermione relationship doesn't work for me at all. I think Ron's temperament brings out Hermione's bossy side.

On the other hand, I find Luna's reactions a bit too mild and detached. I like people who are passionate and demonstrative. I think Harry and Hermione complement each other nicely. She operates a great deal on logic, he on "gut" instinct--yet they both exhibit a great deal of passion and emotion. Each seems to sort of "fill in" the qualities that the other lacks, and they have an almost "psychic" connection. Still, I'm not sure that they aren't destined to be best friends rather than lovers.

It's still too early for me to put my money on anyone--except maybe McGonagall and Dumbledore! LOL I just find adult 'ships more interesting and entertaining than kid 'ships!

Solitaire

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Kip Carter - Feb 1, 2005 2:16 am (#399 of 1858)

co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Edited by Catherine Feb 1, 2005 4:55 am
I have deleted a number of links in this thread to essays that support or defend a particular opinion that some of you have concerning relationships in the Harry Potter series.

I have many reasons for the deletions and will not allow any further links to those essays. If you want to read the essay, please contact the member who posted the now-deleted link via email and ask for a link. One of the posters uses his/her email address option of Privacy, so you will not have a way of contacting that poster unless he/she releases the Privacy option.

This thread is not a courtroom, but a discussion thread. Opinions by each are valid; however I feel that the present way of supporting your viewpoint is getting very defensive in challenges and offensive in rebuttals. If not controlled soon, this thread may have to be closed down to allow some tempers to cool. I do not want to take that drastic approach; however I will if I do not see some change in the approach some members are using to support their views.

Just because an essay exists does not make a point valid or invalid.

The Harry Potter Lexicon Forum is a Private forum and access for those posting messages is limited to our Philosophy and guidelines. In linking to another site, complications could be faced because of copyright laws protecting those who have authored an essay. To quote "sizeable" portions of an essay can also cause copyright conflicts. If you feel that an essay supports your views, please use your own words to convey what you feel is stated in the essay.

If you still have other questions, please feel free to email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Eric Bailey - Feb 1, 2005 2:15 pm (#400 of 1858)

Well, there's something to be said for emotional detachment in a crisis. Somebody needed to be cool, calm, and calculating, there, while everybody else was busy yelling. It's also the most effective way to deal with the Draco Malfoys of the world, not letting them get to you, rising above them. I don't see Luna as lacking in emotions, just someone who can keep them under control. A lot of Harry's problem in the fifth book was his lack of self control. While I'm sure going CAPSLOCK on everyone was cathartic, it didn't really help. He didn't really start to heal until his conversation with Luna, and I don't think she was really being detached, there, just gentle and empathic. That approach did what no one else, not Dumbledore, Ron, Hermione, anyone, could do for Harry, right then.

I don't care for the R/Hr ship, either, as I see them as incompatable. That seems to be where JKR is going, though, unless it's all a red herring.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 401 to 450)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:41 am

ema fewett - Feb 1, 2005 2:21 pm (#401 of 1858)
I have a question! Say that the ship you supported didn't happen and Harry or Ron or Hermione end up with someone else(assuming they live), would you be utterly outraged or you wouldnt mind as long as that character is happy?

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Solitaire - Feb 1, 2005 2:33 pm (#402 of 1858)

I want all of the "good guys" to end up alive. I have my hopes for each character, of course; but in the end I don't care whether they stay single or who they marry ... just as long as they are happy and healthy. If Snape turns out to be truly good (meaning he was just pretending all along to be a cruel, nasty, sadistic jerk), I won't even mind if he is happy--well, as happy as he is capable of being. I would, however, like to see McGonagall and Dumbledore marry. They are a great match!

Solitaire

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Weeny Owl - Feb 1, 2005 3:05 pm (#403 of 1858)

The relationships are something I never paid attention to at all until I came here and saw how much they're discussed.

I couldn't care less who ends up with whom, but as Solitaire said, I want my favorites to end up alive, happy, and healthy. If they stay single or marry and have millions of children really doesn't matter to me.

These discussions provide some amusement and interesting debates until the next book is published, but they constitute about 5% of my interest. I care much more about Harry defeating Voldemort, and hopefully, Umbridge gettiing what is coming to her.

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Catherine - Feb 1, 2005 3:16 pm (#404 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
That's so funny, Weeny Owl, that you really didn't attend to the 'ships until you came to the Forum.

I was the same way. And now both of us have, on more than one occasion, jumped into the fray with wands drawn!

It's fun, it's diverting, but it's not my main focus by any means. In the absence of new information from Jo, and the sixth book, I find that the debate here rages on, so there is always something to talk about.

Oh, and Marcus, LOL two times over for your rejoinder "All's fair in love and war." I can't argue with that one; nor can I argue that Pansy probably has adopted that viewpoint! All I will say in return is, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."

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Eponine - Feb 1, 2005 3:35 pm (#405 of 1858)

I was the same way too. I had read the books and had gotten impressions from them as to who I thought would end up together, but it wasn't until I got online that I discovered the endless debates and the not-always-polite discussions regarding the ships. That was when I become more interested in them.

As long as the main characters and happy and healthy, I will be satisfied with whatever Jo decides to write. She is the ultimate authority, and unless she tells me otherwise, I am going to stay firmly aboard.

However, if the 'ships that I've been anticipating don't happen, I will accept it but wonder how I could have misread the clues so badly.

Ultimately, I just want them to survive to be able to have a relationship.

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timrew - Feb 1, 2005 4:16 pm (#406 of 1858)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Don't forget, when the books end, HHR will still only be seventeen years old. Unless JKR throws in a chapter 'so many years into the future', I can't see Harry, Ron or Hermione settling down and having kids just yet.

So we might end up not knowing at all who ends up with who; and to be quite honest, I really don't care........

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Weeny Owl - Feb 1, 2005 4:22 pm (#407 of 1858)

I was the same way. And now both of us have, on more than one occasion, jumped into the fray with wands drawn!

It's fun, it's diverting, but it's not my main focus by any means. In the absence of new information from Jo, and the sixth book, I find that the debate here rages on, so there is always something to talk about.

::waving to Catherine::

If it weren't for these debates, we would really be chewing our fingernails until July. Actually, I think we're all chewing our fingernails anyway, but if it weren't for these debates, we'd start on our toenails.

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Prefect Marcus - Feb 1, 2005 4:42 pm (#408 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Or talons in your case, Weeny. :-)

I, myself, would prefer nobody hooking up with anybody. They will be only 17. That is awfully young to be choosing life partners.

However, since Rowling seems to be definitely setting up R/H, we can only "go with the flow" and start guessing the others' fates.

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Eponine - Feb 1, 2005 4:51 pm (#409 of 1858)

Well, she has said the last chapter is an epilogue. (I can confirm that as I've seen the interview, and it's still saved on my TiVo) So, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if we found out that certain characters settled down and had twelve children. But, I don't think book 7 will be ending (prior to the epilogue) will be ending with a double/triple wedding or even with an engagement.

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timrew - Feb 1, 2005 5:35 pm (#410 of 1858)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I agree, Marcus. There's nothing wrong with guessing the fates of other characters who may be 'shipped'. But let's wait till they're older, wiser, and in their 20s.

Maybe in some epilogue, Ron will be henpecked by Hermione, Harry will be married to Pansy - but she never sees him, as he's off on 'auroring' missions all the time. Neville will become a sub-editor on 'The Quibbler', having married Luna; and Dumbledore (having reached the age that wizards usually propose) will have settled down with McGonagall to breed cats and knit socks...........

But all this is pure speculation...........

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Star Crossed - Feb 1, 2005 7:07 pm (#411 of 1858)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Oh my. When you mentioned Pansy never seeing Harry, I immediately thought of Ella Enchanted.

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Choices - Feb 1, 2005 7:36 pm (#412 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I don't really care who ends up with who. I don't in the least think these books are, or should be, concerned with romantic relationships......limited teenage crushes, maybe. It's just not what they are about. I think the books should end without even a mention of who ends up with who so that everybody can come to their own conclusions. Have Hermione marry Voldemort if that's the ship you favor. I just want all my favorite characters to be alive and happy at the end and I want the good guys to win.

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 1, 2005 7:49 pm (#413 of 1858)

The students' parting shot at Filch:

Crookshanks/Mrs Norris.

Can you imagine the look on Filch's face if Mrs N walked by with a litter of Crookshanks-like kittens? (Hermione better have her NEWT certificate in hand - she won't find Hogwarts pleasant after that...)

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Wand Maker - Feb 1, 2005 7:55 pm (#414 of 1858)

I generally agree with you Prefect Marcus. In reading the posts many people appear to be pairing most of the students up. Alot of the parents of characters have actually married muggles so I would not be surprised to see that there are very few extended romantic pairings done in the next two books.

Muggle Doctor, I think that Filch would actually like that. More deputies for him.

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Weeny Owl - Feb 1, 2005 9:25 pm (#415 of 1858)

::waving talon at Marcus::

Personally, I would like to see an epilogue just to see where everyone is in JKR's world, based on how she sees her characters. I don't mean just romantic relationships, but also careers, children, what happens with Azkaban with no more dementors, and generally just a nice wrap-up of the entire series.

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Loopy Lupin - Feb 2, 2005 6:56 am (#416 of 1858)

These discussions provide some amusement and interesting debates until the next book is published, but they constitute about 5% of my interest. I care much more about Harry defeating Voldemort, and hopefully, Umbridge gettiing what is coming to her.-- Weeny Owl

This sums up my own sentiment nicely. I have a feeling, though, that Umbridge may have gotten all that is coming to her already. Still, maybe we'll get a quick line about her being demoted to a very low position in the Ministry. Perhaps there is a wizarding zoo and she can muck the stalls of all the non-human creatures. Smile

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Catherine - Feb 2, 2005 11:04 am (#417 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Or, since Filch admires Umbridge so much, maybe she can come back to Hogwarts, marry Filch, and help him scrub. It would be delightful to watch her trying to get rid of the little bit of swamp left by Flitwick in the corridor! And it would make Peeves so happy to have her to focus his energies upon.

Or, does even Filch not deserve Umbridge? I'll have to mull that one over.

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Weeny Owl - Feb 2, 2005 11:55 am (#418 of 1858)

I must say, Catherine, that you've now come up with my all-time favorite romantic pairing. Filch and Umbridge can get married at Hogwarts with Peeves as an attendant for both. He can alternately throw rice at the couple (cooked, of course, so that it sticks) and whack them over their heads with whatever is handy.

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Catherine - Feb 2, 2005 12:03 pm (#419 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
SPEW!

Thanks, Weeny. I can't imagine a wedding scene I'd enjoy more. **mops up spilled soda**

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Eponine - Feb 2, 2005 1:43 pm (#420 of 1858)

I've now discovered the one thing I would love to happen. Filch and Umbridge...together forever.

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timrew - Feb 2, 2005 3:13 pm (#421 of 1858)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I guess that puts paid to Umbridge and Voldemort then......(wipes away a tear).......

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 2, 2005 6:49 pm (#422 of 1858)

Edited by Denise P. Feb 2, 2005 6:59 pm
Umbridge/Voldemort? Sorry, no.

Umbridge (in breathless Mills&Boon-type voice): "Tom, oh Tom, you're my hero! Kiss me by the beautiful moonlight!"

Voldemort: "Get away from me, you useless excuse for a witch! I'd rather cuddle up to that mudblood Granger and whisper sweet nothings in her ear than lay so much as the lightest kiss on your foul lips!"

Serpent-tongued he may be, but surely that "slack, toad-like mouth" would have to turn even our favourite Evil Guy off.

Edit: I changed the wording of one line to keep it more in line with the family friendliness of the Forum. Denise P.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 2, 2005 8:34 pm (#423 of 1858)

Solitaire and Tim count me on the Dumbledore/McGonagall ship. I can just see DD knitting his wool socks sitting a squashy chintz armchair near the fire. Minerva sitting in her straight back, wooden chair reading aloud her copy "Transfiguration Today". DD nodding every once in a while to her comments about the articles. LPO

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Weeny Owl - Feb 2, 2005 9:30 pm (#424 of 1858)

Edited by Kip Carter Aug 28, 2005 4:41 am
Poor Tim, I know you were counting on Dolores becoming Lady Voldemort.

Perhaps Voldemort could become godfather to Mrs. Norris, and in turn, Dolores and Argus could be godparents to Nagini. What sweet family gatherings they would have.

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timrew - Feb 3, 2005 4:42 pm (#425 of 1858)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Aw! Thanks, Weeny Owl!

And thank you, Muggle Doctor for making me laugh out loud. Although I can still hear Dolores crooning to Voldemort, "That Old Black Magic Has Me In Its Spell"...........

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 3, 2005 11:06 pm (#426 of 1858)

Edit: I changed the wording of one line to keep it more in line with the family friendliness of the Forum. Denise P

Fair enough. (blushes!)

I thought about the wording for a while, but elected to leave it as it was (i.e. as Denise found it) because with all the pervasive sexual messages that are openly touted in society today (where even sub 10 year olds can see them), I thought that what I originally wrote was surely "safe" by comparison (especially in the Mills & Boon-ish context in which I placed it).

Not a defence, but an explanation.

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Solitaire - Feb 4, 2005 12:45 am (#427 of 1858)

Catherine! When I read your Umbridge-Filch 'ship, I laughed so hard I almost fell off my chair! Then I got to thinking about it ... I'm not sure Filch really deserves that kind of punishment. Yeah, he is a pain ... but since he is not magical, the kids can sort of "outrun" him.

Hermione better have her NEWT certificate in hand - she won't find Hogwarts pleasant after that...

I don't think Filch can really do anything to Hermione. However, she might be able to do plenty to him ... and as we have seen, she is not the same rigid rule-keeper from PS/SS. She might be happy enough to zap him into a suit of armor if he gets too cheeky! LOL

Frankly, I'm inclined to agree with whoever said he would like a lot of little Mrs. Norris deputies running around Hogwarts. Can't you just see the little busybodies now ... running to tattle to "Daddy Filch" on all the naughty, rule-breaking little Gryffindors? The whole thing reminds me of that Bill Cosby monologue where he says his wife always sends along a child--The Informer--when he goes anywhere. Filch would love lots of little Informers!

Solitaire

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 4, 2005 12:26 pm (#428 of 1858)

Oh goodness, I didn't think of that... but to have Crookshanks be the father would still bring a sick horror to Filch's face (plus Crookshanks would get back in Ron's good books, if he wasn't there already): "My cat has been (insert veterinary term of choice here)... I demand punishment!"

Meanwhile, in the Gryffindor common room: Ron: "Your cat did what?"

Hermione (smugly crosses arms): "He got Mrs Norris pregnant."

Ron (looking like he's just won the Wizard lottery): "Cool!"

And can we say that the offspring of such a union, bred in part from a student's cat, would necessarily be truthful to Filch? They might well drive him insane, telling him there is nothing going on when he KNOWS (as sure as God made little green apples) that there must be.

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Tomoé - Feb 10, 2005 9:33 am (#429 of 1858)

Back in business
About GoF, Jo said: Everyone's in love with the wrong person. (Harry's Fame / Barnes & Noble chat / Wild about Harry)

So we had:

Harry -> Cho
Ron -> Fleur
Ginny -> Harry
Neville -> Hermione
Hermione -> Krum?

Your thoughts.

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TGF - Feb 10, 2005 10:10 am (#430 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Well, she said 'love' not like.

Hermione love Krum? Ron love Fleur? Neville love Hermione? That seems like a bit too strong word to describe any of those relationships. Being with or asking someone to the Yule ball does not love make.

Though, since this is an interview, and perhaps she wasn't selecting he words so judiciously and meant 'in love' as in 'is interested in', I guess your list can be considered reasonably accurate. Still, I don't think that Hermione was ever really interested in Krum, as, even though the guy was obviously very interested, the two never did anything after the Yule Ball. Neville seems a bit iffy too.

... and I can't believe I just posted in the shipper thread...

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Denise P. - Feb 10, 2005 10:15 am (#431 of 1858)

Ravenclaw Pony
I think she used love over like because when you are 13, 14, 15...you are quite sure it is love that you feel for that crush.

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Catherine - Feb 10, 2005 10:19 am (#432 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Thanks for the giving us JKR's words about being in love with the wrong person.

As for me, I don't assume that Hermione is in love with Krum; he seems to be more infatuated with her. So for your chart, I might have flipped the position of Hermione and Krum.

We know from OoP that Ginny got together with Michael Corner at the Yule Ball and began to go out with him by the end of the year. Does that negate the Ginny/Harry pairing? We already know that Ginny/Michael were wrong.

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TGF - Feb 10, 2005 10:34 am (#433 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I guess so, Denise, but thinking doesn't necessarily make it so. Thinking one is in love does not make one's feelings love. Love is supposed to be something deeper, and is something I don't think any character in the books has exhibited so far (in the sense of girl:boy, rather than child:parental figure or friend:friend, which we've seen in huge quantities).

But yeah, I guess I can understand the reasoning behind the word choice.

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Tomoé - Feb 10, 2005 2:43 pm (#434 of 1858)

Back in business
I think Denise get it right, on the top of their 14 years, they are sure it's true love. ^_^

As for Hermione and Krum, I put a question mark after Krum's name because I can't reckon who Hermione fancy in GoF. Did she had feelings for Krum? Was she in love with Ron all along (and therefore Ron is not her true love)? We can only guess ... we may never know.

Let's put the quotes in their context:

Harry is changing as he's getting older. He and his friends are 14 now and their hormones are kicking in, so it's really fun to write about. Everyone's in love with the wrong person, it's brilliant. (Harry's fame)

Dear Ms Rowling, I'd like to ask if there would be a lot of romances between the characters in the upcoming books?
Good question. I'm having so much fun writing Book 4 because for the first time Harry, Ron, and Hermione are starting to recognize boys and girls as boys and girls. Everyone is in love with the wrong people. Let no one say my books lack realism. (Barnes & Noble Chat)

Yes, Rowling acknowledges, Harry is on the brink of adoloescence and will fall into that hormonal morass any day now. Harry and friends will notice, and do more than notice, members of the opposite sex, and the action starts in Book Four where they all fall in love with the wrong people. (Wild about Harry)

The first quotes come from interviews, the last one is a report. Notice the same exact phrasing in the interviews, it sounds to be an important concept for GoF. Now who does it concern, we have Harry and his 14 years old friends, HRH and Harry and friends. So I'll get Ginny and Neville out of the list.

We still have:

Harry -> Cho
Ron -> Fleur (unless it's Hermione)
Hermione -> Krum? Ron? Harry?

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TGF - Feb 10, 2005 3:10 pm (#435 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I don't think you can really call Hermione in book 4, Tomoe. People can and have made arguments for all, especially for Ron and Harry, but I don't think there's enough material in the text to make a definite declaration of Hermione's heart.

As for Ron and Fleur, well... Ron just kinda oggles her, doesn't he? I know we're working on the definition that any crush is love, because they're so young, but he never really seemed to think about the girl so much, aside from when he saw her there in all her part-Veela glory. In any case, by the end of GoF , it's pretty clear that Ron isn't going to have anything to do with Fleur. Heck, the girl is taking 'English lessons' from his older brother now, and he doesn't seem to mind. If he was (at some point) crazy about Fleur, wouldn't he show some signs of jealousy or anything of that nature?

So I really don't think Ron was in love with Fleur... what we saw was just the standard male 14 year old reaction to seeing a beautiful woman.

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Tomoé - Feb 10, 2005 4:16 pm (#436 of 1858)

Back in business
Well, I believe the everyone's in love with the wrong person works only for GoF, I saw nothing related to it before or after 1999, which would mean most of the crushes last only within the pages of the fourth book. Ron/Fleur and Hermione/Krum (at east Hermione->Krum if not Krum->Hermione) didn't exist before GoF and are definitely over as GoF ended, we all agree with that (except for one of my friend who still believe in Hermy/Krum 'ship). Harry/Cho 'ship lasted until OoP, but it's sunk as well now.

So I think it's what Jo meant, Harry and Ron had a crush on the wrong girl, Hermione was so touched to be asked out by a celebrity that she wanted to believe she could fall in love with him, but it didn't work (she's a bookish bushy haired muggle-born, if a guy who can get any girl chose her, he must have get something other guys don't).

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TomProffitt - Feb 10, 2005 7:27 pm (#437 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Tomoe's interpretation makes the most sense to me.

I suppose we could twist the words enough to support whatever we want, but I think it's pretty much as simple as Tomoe has put it. The trio are all looking at the wrong person. And we should stick to GOF with relation to the quote.

Good stuff T!

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Choices - Feb 10, 2005 7:39 pm (#438 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Fleur's reaction to Harry being in the Triwizard contest was that he was a little boy and much too young. She must view Ron in the same way since he is a contemporary of Harry, if she thinks of Ron at all. I think that infatuation is strictly one sided and may all stem from the "Veela effect" - the power they seem to have to bewitch men and make them act goofy.

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Tomoé - Feb 10, 2005 11:56 pm (#439 of 1858)

Back in business
Thanks Tom!

Jo didn't say their love have to be mutual, Fleur didn't have to love Ron back to make Jo statement true. As for the Veela effect, Ron did think of her even when she wasn't around, so it wasn't all Veela effect, just normal behavior for teen boy around a cute girl, like TGF said.

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Czarina II - Feb 11, 2005 9:13 am (#440 of 1858)

I don't think "everyone's in love with the wrong person" necessarily means that every relationship in GoF was 'wrong'. I think JKR simply meant that the main characters -- the Trio, probably -- are in love with the 'wrong' people, or the people that Jo doesn't plan to put them together with. I think she was referring to the obvious relationships, like Harry-Cho, Ron-Fleur, Hermione-Krum.

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TGF - Feb 11, 2005 10:16 am (#441 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Hm, I guess so then. I still don't like the phrase 'in love', but it's an interview quote and really ought not to be disected any more than necessary.

The Hermione/Krum angle is not going to establish a long lasting relationship, I agree, but it isn't exactly over, is it? She still writes letters to him and all that. Krum could easily come back in 6/7 for some kind of last hurrah.

I still disagree that Ron was all too crazy about Fleur... regardless of how well he got over it, he would still not like his brother for dating her if that was the case. But, again, it's an interview quote, so I will conform with the popular interpretation.

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Solitaire - Feb 12, 2005 1:56 pm (#442 of 1858)

I don't see that Ron was even remotely "in love" with Fleur. She is a Veela, and when he was in her presence, he was stupid and tongue-tied and acted like a complete idiot (as did many of the men at the Quidditch World Cup, if you remember). As soon as he was out of her immediate vicinity, he seemed to forget her. That doesn't even sound like a crush, to me. He was just under the spell of her "veela-ness."

Solitaire

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Susan Potter - Feb 12, 2005 4:27 pm (#443 of 1858)

I think H/Hrs use the "wrong people" quotes to try to "get rid of" R/h Wink after all, I have seen several essay's and post where H/Hrs claim that Hermoine has a crush on Harry... she is really jealous because Fleur kisses *him* (nothing to do with Ron), talks about Harry often to Krum, romantic walks around lake etc, the famed kiss at the end... so wouldn't Harry be Hermoine's "Wrong person?"

I think the ships she was referring to are Harry+Cho, Ron+Fluer, and Hermione+Victor...jmho

Susan...TTFN

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Solitaire - Feb 12, 2005 8:48 pm (#444 of 1858)

I have seen several essay's and post where H/Hrs claim that Hermoine has a crush on Harry... she is really jealous because Fleur kisses *him* (nothing to do with Ron), talks about Harry often to Krum, romantic walks around lake etc, the famed kiss at the end... so wouldn't Harry be Hermoine's "Wrong person?"

Just remember ... those are essays and posts are readers' interpretations of things.

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Eric Bailey - Feb 13, 2005 4:12 am (#445 of 1858)

"I don't see that Ron was even remotely "in love" with Fleur. She is a Veela, and when he was in her presence, he was stupid and tongue-tied and acted like a complete idiot"

Shrug... Sounds like a 14 year old boy with a crush to me...

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Chemyst - Feb 13, 2005 7:40 am (#446 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Sounds like a 14 year old boy with a crush to me...
Yes, but I think that was the point. Crushes on the wrong people.

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Susan Potter - Feb 13, 2005 9:29 am (#447 of 1858)

Solitaire said...Just remember ... those are essays and posts are readers' interpretations of things

susan... yes, interpretations that of what they read in CANON...

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Catherine - Feb 13, 2005 11:23 am (#448 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
yes, interpretations that of what they read in CANON... --Susan Potter

Well, I hope so! That is the standard we have here on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum.

Solitaire's caution is a reasonable one, in my opinion, especially if she was referring to essays from other sites.

My caution is for us make sure that our tone remains friendly and respectful. This thread has been known to overheat at times.

So...I must say that I never really considered before if Ron had a '"crush" on Fleur. I rather thought he was a bit bewitched by her Veela-ness, but I never seemed to think that he mooned about her or thought about her when she wasn't physically in his presence. Perhaps I should consider this more.

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Denise P. - Feb 13, 2005 11:30 am (#449 of 1858)

Ravenclaw Pony
How would we know if Ron ever mooned over her other than when she was around? The books are told from Harry's POV and boys, as aptly demonstrated in OoP, go to great lengths to hide any sign that they may like a girl. Ron was stunned to find out that Harry had liked Cho for ages, when Hermione said it. It would not be unusual for us, the readers, to have no real clue what Ron was doing regarding Fleur because Harry didn't notice it.

Fleur, as far as we know, was the first girl that Ron noticed. It could be due, in part, to her being part Veela but I think Ron did have a crush on her. Perhaps not a full blown one but certainly he did feel something for her. I doubt we would find any Ron Fleur written in his books but his heart did go pitter patter when she was near him.

As for Ron not being too upset that Fleur is interested in his brother now....well, I can see that too. He has had about a years worth of perspective to look at his "relationship" with Fleur. He is probably a bit embarassed by it now and recognizes it was just a passing fancy on his part. Based on that, he is probably happy that Fleur never noticed his little crush and that it is not mentioned any more. No one likes to be reminded that they acted like a lovesick calf.

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Catherine - Feb 13, 2005 11:41 am (#450 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Well, that's true, Denise. Harry isn't exactly precocious when it comes to feelings. Ron could have been thinking about Fleur and we would never notice. Just as Ron didn't seem to realize how long Harry had liked Cho, Harry probably wouldn't know too much about Ron's feelings, either.

But, Harry did notice that Ron broke the Krum action figure!

Based on that, he is probably happy that Fleur never noticed his little crush and that it is not mentioned any more. No one likes to be reminded that they acted like a lovesick calf.

I'm sure that Fleur would have realized that she had some effect on Ron, as he did ask her to the Yule Ball, and then spent a great deal of effort to avoid her for a bit after that. But yes, in the big sense, I don't think that Fleur really noticed Ron.

Thank goodness that Fred and George didn't seem privy to the whole incident; they would no doubt still be tormenting Ron about it!

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 451 to 500)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:42 am

haymoni - Feb 13, 2005 6:21 pm (#451 of 1858)
I'm sure Fleur didn't notice Ron until she thought he had helped save her sister.

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 13, 2005 6:31 pm (#452 of 1858)

Edited by Denise P. Feb 13, 2005 5:51 pm
I know it is easy to belittle what 14 year olds feel for each other - the fact remains that even a 14 year old BOY can feel something for the object of his desire that has everything to do with how he feels in his head and heart. Most intelligent 14 year olds probably KNOW that what they call love is not what, for example, their parents would, but it is genuine to them and should be respected as such.

Love is an evolutionary process, anyway - the first thing all of us who are partnered probably felt for our Other Halves was something 'mushy and crushy' - the "till death do us part" stuff came later. Give the kids a chance.

Admittedly, Harry's feelings for Cho (for example) were never really elucidated in his own mind, let alone to her (probably part of the reason it all came undone).

A useful exercise might be to drag each character before a hypothetical Wizengamot of Love and drag out of them, using only Canon quotes of what they say (or in Harry's case only, what he is thinking), what each feels for the other and why they think the other is the best thing since sliced bread. Nobody at Hogwarts (at least among the students) would pass this test (based on the first five books). Not even Ginny, who made it quite clear that she was going out with Michael Corner and later Dean Thomas, but hasn't said a word about why she chose either (and recall that it was Hermione who, out of Ginny's hearing, let on that Ginny no longer fancied Harry).

Edit: I removed a few lines that dealt with a subject that is not in keeping with the family friendly atmosphere of the Forum. Denise P.

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Solitaire - Feb 13, 2005 7:29 pm (#453 of 1858)

As one who spends 180 days a year teaching adolescents, I am pretty aware when one has a crush on the other ... the boys as well as the girls. And believe it or not, even the boys talk about the "hot" girls when I am around. (I'm invisible, you see ... they don't notice me.)

I do believe that Harry was pretty wrapped up in his own issues in GoF--both his crush on Cho and his participation in the Tournament. I also think his Tournament woes probably outweighed his crush on Cho, especially after he realized she was dating Cedric. But he seemed to be paying pretty close attention to Ron due to the fact that he and Ron were not speaking up until after the first task--and it left him feeling rather alone.

I still think, too, that the explanation of the effect the Veelas had on the men at the QWC (Ron in particular) was important ... to show us the effect Fleur had on Ron at Hogwarts when he was in her presence. Even Ron said, after asking her to the ball, "Why did I do it? I don't know what made me do it!" ...

"I don't know what made me do it!" Ron gasped again. "What was I playing at? There were people--all around--I've gone mad--everyone watching! I was just walking past her in the entrance hall--she was standing there talking to Diggory--and it sort of came over me--and I asked her!"

Ron moaned and put his face in his hands. He kept talking, though the words were barely distinguishable.

"She looked at me like I was a sea slug or something. Didn't even answer. And then--I dunno--I just sort of came to my senses and ran for it."

"She's part Veela," said Harry. "You were right--her grandmother was one. It wasn't your fault. I bet you just walked past when she was turning on the old charm for Diggory and got a blast of it--but she was wasting her time. He's going with Cho Chang."

I just don't get the idea that he has been mooning around about Fleur all year, the way I see boys with crushes behave. I'm sure he may think about her now and then; I just think that he is especially susceptible to her charms when he is near her, as Harry points out. As for liking Hermione, I think he does ... but I'm not sure he is sufficiently aware of his feelings in GoF to actually know it. He is angry that she has gone to the ball with Viktor, but I don't believe he realizes why he is angry. I don't think Ron understands his feelings just yet--about Hermione or anything else.

As for Harry ... I think expressing any kind of feelings is still pretty new to him, after having spent 10 years with the Dursleys. He wasn't really allowed to have (or certainly not express) any feelings. I believe this is one reason he was so moody and volatile in OotP. When it comes to expressing his feelings, he was probably only a 5-year-old! Cho's own confused feelings didn't help the situation much, either.

Solitaire

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Ora-Lee - Feb 13, 2005 9:10 pm (#454 of 1858)

I found it interesting that Hermione and Krum have the same wand core, though I don't believe they are anything else beyond friends.

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sir nicholas - Feb 14, 2005 2:55 am (#455 of 1858)

Edited by Feb 14, 2005 1:56 am
Hello, everybody! I'm a newbie here, and this is my first post, but I'm quite up-to-date with the topic here. I'm also a shipper, (a H/Hr one) and it looks like this discussion will be my unofficial home in the HP Forum.

Yeah, but we didn't know that until JKR mentioned in her site that Hermione's wand's core is dragon heartstring, did we? I agree with you. It's quite interesting.

BTW, I also noticed that Ron and Cedric have the same wand core: unicorn tail hair. Don't you think this might be a foreshadowing that Ron might die later in the series? After all, Firenze said in SS/PS that "the innocents are always first to be killed" or something like that, and the centaur was referring to the unicorn. Just an idea (though I hope Ron lives).

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 14, 2005 6:10 am (#456 of 1858)

Edited by Kip Carter Feb 14, 2005 5:11 am
I'm back!

After a misunderstanding, I went AWOL for the past weeks, but here I am once again!

By the way, welcome to the Forum, Sir Nicholas. Glad to know we have another H/Hr shipper here (apart from myself, Sir Tornado, The One, and coolbeans).

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Susan Potter - Feb 14, 2005 10:16 am (#457 of 1858)

Catherine said... Well, I hope so! That is the standard we have here on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum. Solitaire's caution is a reasonable one, in my opinion, especially if she was referring to essays from other sites. My caution is for us make sure that our tone remains friendly and respectful. This thread has been known to overheat at times.

Oh' I hope I sounded friendly and respectful! If I didn't, It certainly wasn't my intention and I didn't mean to... and I apologize if I did Sad

The point I was trying to make was that it's rather unfair for H/Hr's to use this "wrong Person" quote as Anti!Ron/Hermione, because Ron has a crush on Hermione... and then turn around and say that Hermione doesn't return Ron's feelings, she has a crush on Harry.

I think if we look at this quote from this perspective, then from what I gather from both ships, this quote sinks them both, because...

Ron has a crush on Hermione, so Hermione is Ron's "wrong person"...

Hermione has a crush on Harry (as many H/Hrs seem to think, by the post's, essays, ect, that they have written, and I have read), so Harry is Hermione's "wrong Person"...

So if we look at this quote through this perspective then... R/Hr's and H/Hr's need to pack-up and go home because, game over...

I think she was referring to Hermione+Victor, Harry+Cho, and Ron+Fluer... but like most things in this Harry Potter world, nobody can be sure until it’s all said and done...

Catherine said... So...I must say that I never really considered before if Ron had a '"crush" on Fleur. I rather thought he was a bit bewitched by her Veela-ness, but I never seemed to think that he mooned about her or thought about her when she wasn't physically in his presence. Perhaps I should consider this more

I don't remember when, or where... but I do remember JKR saying in an interview or somewhere, concerning Ron, that Fluer was "aiming high" ... does this sound familiar to anybody? I think it shows that Fluer was Ron's "wrong person"...

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Choices - Feb 14, 2005 12:06 pm (#458 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Especially today, Valentine's Day, I am wishing all our beloved characters love.....may they all find their heart's true love and be happy ever after!! :-)

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TGF - Feb 14, 2005 2:25 pm (#459 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Susan Potter, you should really scope out Quick Quotes (or Madam Scoop's as it's called now, but I liked 'Quick Quotes' better) when you remember JKR saying anything, just for the sake of confirmation. I just did a quick run through the site, and the only thing I found on Fleur is that her name means 'Flower of the Court'. Nothing mentioned at all about Ron and her...

Edit for Solitaire

Looked through the Quick Quotes a bit more... I don't remember where exactly you said this, but Mrs. Norris is indeed from Jane Austen, according to JKR:

"Mrs. Norris, people will recognize comes from Jane Austin."

Can't get anymore straightforward than that.

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Eponine - Feb 14, 2005 2:46 pm (#460 of 1858)

Here's the quote on Ron aiming high with Fleur.

From Barnes and Noble/Yahoo! Chat October 20, 2000

Yahooligan_Brian asks: Will Ron ever get a girlfriend? jkrowling_bn: I'm laughing again... why wouldn't he?! jkrowling_bn: though he's not doing too well at the moment, is he? jkrowling_bn: but then, Fleur Delacour was really aiming a bit high

On a completely unrelated note, everytime I see someone (or myself) use a / between two words, I think, "Now that's a strange ship to have."

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TGF - Feb 14, 2005 2:59 pm (#461 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Thanks Eponine. I wish they had a google-like function for Madam Scoops, wherein you just type in 'Ron Fleur' and hit go and get what you want.

Oh wait, Quick Quotes is still up in some form, and does have that feature. Well, I guess then that my wish has come true. Why does the Floo network have two quote websites anyhow? I thought Scoop replaced Quote, but that apparently isn't the case. T'is strange.

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Denise P. - Feb 14, 2005 3:05 pm (#462 of 1858)

Ravenclaw Pony
Quick Quotes is set up by the year in which each interview/article was given. Scoop is arranged by theme. If you know JKR said something about Ron specifically, then you can go to Scoop.

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TGF - Feb 14, 2005 3:11 pm (#463 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
The two sites should really be combined into the Super Scooping Quick Quote Quill or somesuch, so as to minimize confusion.

I looked through the Ron and Relationship section for anything on him and Fleur, but turned up empty, so I guess Scoop isn't as fleshed out as it might be as of yet.

Edit: Anyway, going back to topic...

I've wondered... at the end of book 5, Dumbledore says to Harry: "In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." Apparently, Harry's capacity for love is his strongest asset. Dumbledore says earlier that "it [love] is the power... that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all".

Do these revelations affect anyone's ship theories at all? How do people believe this will come into play in the next two books?

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 14, 2005 6:31 pm (#464 of 1858)

I wrote a fanfic (as yet unposted) on the theme of what would happen if Harry were to express intense love (for his 'ship) under circumstances in which Voldemort had implanted himself irrevocably in Harry's mind (no way to remove him but also no way for Voldy to retreat when things got unpleasant for him). To cut a long story short, Voldemort dies. Screaming.

Possibly this was inspired by something else I read:

I offer you love, and love shall be your destruction.

From Crusader by Sara Douglass. A weapon (specifically a sword) was used to immobilise the villain and prevent his escape or retaliation while love consumed him.

Harry's ability to express a deep and pretty-much all-consuming love might just end up being the crux of the final confrontation. The only catch may be who he expresses it for, and what type of love it is, with the distinct possibility that it may not be 'romantic' at all.

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Choices - Feb 14, 2005 6:35 pm (#465 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think Harry has a great capacity for love. Right now I think Dumbledore is talking about platonic love, not romantic, but I think that will come later. What better qualities in a husband than the ability to love greatly, be loyal and brave and be your best friend? Harry will be a great catch someday for some lucky girl.....and I do think it will be Hermione.

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 14, 2005 6:47 pm (#466 of 1858)

Yes, but some platonic loves run deeper and are stronger than even the romantic. This is the sort of love that Harry feels for Hermione. I think it's very easy for girls like Cho to be jealous of Hermione - they know that what Harry feels for Hermione is something no other girl will ever know, even if he marries the Muggle girl next door and has a million kids and a happy ever after ending. It will take a very well balanced and self-confident female Hogwarts student to be satisfied that there isn't a secret something between the two that might come out 'later'. Luna, anyone?

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TGF - Feb 14, 2005 7:13 pm (#467 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I think that Dumbledore there is talking about love for his family (remember, he thought: 'And I'll see Sirius again...', which forced Voldemort off of him) though. But those words nonetheless strongly tie the romance subplot of the books to the overall plot of the books. It says that it's very likely that however Harry defeats Voldemort in the end, it will involve love, strongly. What type of love? Well, I think most definetly male-female love, rather than family love, because firstly he's all outta family (the Dursleys *SO* do not count) and secondly because that seems like the natural progression after Sirius' death.

The question is then: which girl can Harry love so thoroughly as to be able to defeat Voldemort through the strength of that emotion alone?

My opinion is that it can't be Ginny for, despite her merits, I don't think, judging by her treatment of Corner, that she's one for the 'deep emotional connection' deal. My preference would be what Choices said, and Muggle Doctor eluded to... Harry and Hermione have something between eachother that no other girl could possibly ever touch. It isn't going to go away, nor should it. I think that what could be built upon it would result in an absolutely beautiful thing to behold.

But if Hermione is absolutely positively reserved for Ron, as many people seem convinced of, then I agree with Muggle Doctor about Luna. The conversation between her and Harry opened a lot of emotional potential, and its conclusion would be better than anything I can imagine between Harry and Ginny. Though my first preference is thoroughly documented.

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TomProffitt - Feb 14, 2005 9:36 pm (#468 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Before OP I was a Harry/Cho shipper. Then I realized, belatedly, that Jo's characters are going to grow into their relationships.

So, now when I look at 'ships I try to see where (or what) the characters are growing towards in themselves and not where they are after OP. That's why I'm a strong Ron/Hermione 'shipper, you can see where that one is going with out much trouble. On the other hand, there aren't any other clear cut 'ships out there. People cast it aside pretty quickly, but there's probably more "evidence" for a Harry/Parvati 'ship than most of the others he's suggested for.

Harry/Luna? I haven't seen enough of Luna to make a good guess where she's headed. I think Harry needs "stable" and "well adjusted" from a girl friend or partner (or whatever the word of the moment is). That doesn't sound like Luna to me.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 15, 2005 12:52 am (#469 of 1858)

I still think Harry and Luna is too premature; she only appeared in the fifth book. Hermione, on the other hand, was already a well-developed character, and has more potential to Harry's ultimate love interest.

Look at it logically: if R/Hr and H/G or H/L happen, which 'ship will be the main focus of the story (or at least on the spotlight)? Why, Ron/Hermione, of course! What about the main character? Shunted to one side. It just won't make sense for R/Hr to happen in the logical and canonical perspective. If R/Hr indeed were destined to happen, their relationship should have matured well in OotP, but it hasn't! While Hermione increased in importance and significance to Harry and the plot, Ron became less and less so (IMO, that is).

So who else will be the right girl for Harry other than Hermione? Ginny? I don't think so. While Ginny's character has definitely matured in OotP, she seems to begin to assume a new role: Hermione's successor as confidant and adviser to Harry when it comes to girls and stuff. You ask me why? When Harry finally realizes his feelings for Hermione, he'll need someone to advise him on the matter; Hermione herself couldn't do that since she will be the subject, right? It'll be realy awkward for Harry to ask Hermione for advice on matters concerning her, won't it? He can hardly step up to her and say, "Hermione, please tell me how am I going to tell you that I fancy you?" couldn't he?So I think that'll be Ginny's new role. I mean, she's really over Harry, right? She has actualy moved on (to Michael Corner and later, to Dean Thomas), hasn't she?

Who else? Luna? I've already mentioned her. Parvati or Padma or Lavender? They're rather insignificant when you compare them to Hermione. Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw, or Slytherin girls? Quite impossible. They're not that close to Harry, are they?

So that only leaves Hermione. Hermione, who understands Harry better that even he does; who has always stood by him when no one else did; and who lost interest in Quidditch as soon as Harry was off the Gryffindor team.

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karebear811 - Feb 15, 2005 1:17 am (#470 of 1858)

Yea! Someone who can justify why H/Hr needs to be the solution to this problem! I've always wanted this to be the final ship in the series! They really do make the most sence, in my mind at least. Hermione balances Harry out.

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TGF - Feb 15, 2005 1:21 am (#471 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I agree with you Gryffindor Ghost. No girl in the books can possibly compare to Hermione, and if Ron and Hermione do get together, it will be to the detriment of the books... Not just to any potential relationship Harry might have, but to the story as a whole. After all, what would Hermione and Ron getting together achieve in terms of plot? The relationship has 'awwwww' value and err... that's about it. It would just have been a digression from the main plot, nothing more or less.

But at the same time, as much as I am in favour of your position (heck, I've been arguing H/Hr on this board for years), one cannot completely discount Ron and Hermione. There IS a lot there for that relationship (just as there is for H/Hr)... I don't think it would be a very good setup... I think it'd be unsophisticated, pointless and terribly boring (though if it actually happens, something might convince me otherwise)... but I can't just say 'it'll never happen' as a result, because it might.

So a Luna/Harry angle, for me, would be a very distant second. I would agree with you about Luna, Tom, if not for that last interchange between Luna and Harry at the end of book 5. It revealed a certain emotional depth to Luna that someone like Ginny certainly doesn't seem to have.

I remain convinced that the 'love' lines from Dumbledore which I quoted are what's going to be important here. Whoever Harry finds next has to be able to create something deep and everlasting and all such.

What exactly is the 'evidence' for Harry/Parvati, out of curiousity? She's never cast as anything other than someone who's just kinda there. There's the Yule Ball, I suppose, but I don't think anyone would argue for evidence of deep affection stemming from there.

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frogface - Feb 15, 2005 4:56 am (#472 of 1858)

"What about the main character? Shunted to one side" I can't say I agree with that statement at all. Because there is such a thing as sub-plot. (I'm a firm Hr/R shipper btw - why i'm trying not to sound offencive!) JKR has developed a relationship under the surface between Hermione and Ron using sub-plot for the last two books at least, and has it taken away from the Harry's role? Of course it hasn't, the main mystery in each book has remained firmly in place in every book while relationships are present but certainly have not become dominating even if they have become more important. And there is still time to get Hermoine and Ron together. HbP is not going to be a short book, even if its shorter than OoP. I checked the page numbers and estimated it to be just a little shorter than GoF meaning that its still quite a long book. And JKR could be saving their relationship for the end of the series for all we know. I don't think at this point we can discount any relationship with a scrap of evidence unless JKR actually says that it isn't going to happen. Sorry if I sounded angry or anything! I all open to debate, and I think you did make some good points even if I didn't agree with them Smile xxxkieranxxx

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Denise P. - Feb 15, 2005 8:23 am (#473 of 1858)

Ravenclaw Pony
If you read The Leaky Cauldron yesterday, you will have seen Bloomsbury put up a small teaser on Valentine's Day in the form of a pop up on a countdown calender. When you got it, it showed a wood carving that show the word Harry and then a heart with an arrow carved under it. The rest of the graphic was dark. Being the curious person I am, of course I tried to mess with it to see if I could make the dark part lighter and see who Harry hearts.

Through the miracle of graphics programs, I did manage to see part of one letter. At least I think it could be a letter. Unfortunately, it could be any number of letters but I think it is one of the following. B, C, D, G, O, P, Q, R or even a ? Below is a small version of the lightened version, click on it to go to a larger size (a new window will popup so if you have popups blocked, you won't see it) I do find it odd that the partial letter/symbol I found is curved while the R in Harry's name is more straight.

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TomProffitt - Feb 15, 2005 8:31 am (#474 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Cool Stuff, Denise!

Although I've come to the opinion that somebody's Harry 'ship could be snogging someone else on the last page of book 7 and they'd still be saying, "Well, yeah, but after he's grown up that will change."

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Czarina II - Feb 15, 2005 9:34 am (#475 of 1858)

Well, I must say, the mystery letter looks more like a 'G' than an 'H' or 'L'. Not being partisan here -- just going through the main candidates. I'm also sceptical until I read it from the books or from JKR's site.

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TomProffitt - Feb 15, 2005 9:36 am (#476 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
I go with the "?" Czarina II.

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Denise P. - Feb 15, 2005 9:38 am (#477 of 1858)

Ravenclaw Pony
I lean towards a ? as well. Since this is her publisher that posted it, I am sure JKR had to approve it. It would be like her to tease us and then reveal it was just a question mark.

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Choices - Feb 15, 2005 10:55 am (#478 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well, who Harry will end up with is one little mystery JKR is dangling in front of us and obviously it is driving many of us to distraction. LOL I started out convinced that Hermione and Ron would be together. Then, I began to think maybe that was too obvious and JKR was just toying with us and trying to throw us off the trail. I do think if they do end up together, it will be after Ron matures a great deal and comes into his own as a confident, self assured person. Now he is still struggling to find himself and to emerge from Harry's shadow. I think he needs to be his own man for Hermione to fit well with him and that could very well happen. Until then, I have to go with Hermione and Harry - they just work so well as a pair and have been through a lot that binds them together. It makes it hard to figure out because they all care so deeply about each other and have shared so many experiences, both good and bad. I can't help but believe though, when the smoke clears at the end of book 7, it will be Hermione by Harry's side.

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Denise P. - Feb 15, 2005 11:02 am (#479 of 1858)

Ravenclaw Pony
Truly, for all I weigh in here occasionally, if a character ends up in a relationship during the course of the books is not a major concern. I have stated before, I really don't want to see this become Sweet Valley Hogwarts but it is fun to speculate. Obviously, I do have a few couples I would like to see eventually end up with one another but if they don't in the series, I can always imagine they did happily ever after, assuming they each survive the end of the series.

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TomProffitt - Feb 15, 2005 11:11 am (#480 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
"I do think if they do end up together, it will be after Ron matures a great deal and comes into his own as a confident, self assured person." --- Choices

I think this has already occured. We saw both Harry and Ron mature and gain confidence in themselves in Order of the Phoenix. Ron didn't do it by wrecking Dumbledore's office either. In many ways I think Ron is more mature and self-confident than Harry. Of course, Ron has had the benfit of growing up in a stable and loving family.

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Gregory welch - Feb 15, 2005 11:21 am (#481 of 1858)

I thought that hint about Harry's future love was cool. While it's clear it's not Pansy(at least for this book) I'm going to have to go with my second choice, Susan Bones as Harry's interest in book six. If you look closely the edge of that letter could also be an "S". I realley don't think it's Ginny because that seems too predictable, AKA not Jo's style. As for Pansy,there is still plenty of time for her to change her mind.After all she only learned Harry was telling the truth at the end of the last book.

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Denise P. - Feb 15, 2005 11:27 am (#482 of 1858)

Ravenclaw Pony
You are right, it could be an S. Susan Bones, anyone?

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Choices - Feb 15, 2005 11:38 am (#483 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I can't help but hope that whoever Harry ends up with will be someone we know more about. Many of the girls who have been mentioned we know virtually nothing about. Susan, Pansy, Lavender, Parvati, Cho - for all we know about them and their personalities, we might as well reach blindfolded into a gaggle of girls and pull one out and say, "She's the one". If it is someone other than Hermione, Ginny or Luna (at least we know more about them than the others), I do hope we will be introduced to them in the next books and get more indepth information into what makes them tick and why they are perfect for Harry.

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Gregory welch - Feb 15, 2005 1:01 pm (#484 of 1858)

Yes it very well could be Susan. You might be surprised to know that Susan means "lily", which might tie in to the flower theme of the Potter family. Thats why i also suspect we might find out more about Pansy. Both the name Seamus and James means Supplanter which can translate "to uproot". I realley believe this theory works because Seamus was dating Lavender for the Yule ball and Lavender is a flowering plant.

Do you see my point?

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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 15, 2005 1:34 pm (#485 of 1858)

I Am Almighty!
The "mystery letter" is directly below the heart, and no other letter appears to precede it. If it were part of a name, I think we would be able to see some of the letter before it. My guess is:

Harry
HEART
?

Edit: My avatar is messing it up. My guess would be:

Harry
HEART
?

Second Edit: I hate trying to use HTML.

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Catherine - Feb 15, 2005 2:09 pm (#486 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
That's what I think, too, Vlad.

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KWeldon - Feb 15, 2005 9:01 pm (#487 of 1858)

Me, too. Sometimes I feel like we fans are akin to sharks looking for food (HP info), and we keep chomping on the decoy as if it were really edible (red herrings or meaningless HP info).

Boy, this hacks me off. How dare JKR use this tactic??? Wink Wink Wink

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 15, 2005 10:27 pm (#488 of 1858)

Wow! Good one, Denise!

Well, it could easily be "HermiOne, right? After all, the part of the letter shown is somewhat in the middle (Nahh, just my shippy side talking!)

Thanks very much for those who agreed with my points (karebear811 and TGF), by the way. Oh, and frogface, what I meant by the "shunted to one side" thing is that, if R/Hr indeed happen, which ship do you think will be more popular, R/Hr or H/(whoever)? Let us not forget that this is Harry's story. No matter what happens, HIS ship will be the major one, and not any other secondary ship. Let me expound: the one major ship which will happen eventually is the one involving Harry AND a girl (with Ron and Hermione ending up with other people) or ANY TWO members of the trio (either H/Hr or R/Hr). Now, what could possibly be more major than a ship involving the MAIN character (Harry) and ANOTHER member of the trio (Hermione)? Of course, Ron and Hermione! And as I've said earlier, if R/Hr and H/OC (other character) happen, Harry's ship will be shunted aside because whether we admit it or not, R/Hr will be the highlight or focus ship in the story (I'm not talking about the plots, subplots or anything else). So what's the point of making Harry's ultimate ship only second-fiddle to R/Hr? Nothing at all. I honestly don't think JKR'll do something like that (imagine developing a nice, steadily progressing relationship between two major characters and then making that relationship stop at being "platonic friendship!" And that's not to mention the lack of development in Ron and Hermione's relationship).

As for JKR developing a relationship between R/Hr "under the surface" and "using subplot", I really don't think JKR is doing that, or that she is using subplot for this. By the way, what did you mean by this:

frogface: "...and has it taken away from the Harry's role? Of course it hasn't, the main mystery in each book has remained firmly in place in every book while relationships are present but certainly have not become dominating even if they have become more important.

Did you mean, "and has it take over Harry's role in the books"?

As I have said above, I'm not saying that R/Hr will be taking over Harry's role as the main character (I'm not gonna repeat it, as I have explained it already in the previous paragraphs).

Yes, I agree that no one is really sure as to who will end up with whom, and for all we know, R/Hr might actually happen. It's possible, but IMHO, it's not that probable (at least based on latest canon evidences, clues, and hints, as I understand them).

No, you didn't sound angry, frogface. I'm also open for debate, and if (and only if, okay? I'm not asserting anything) anyone here wishes to have a friendly debate based purely on HP canon, I'm on. But I think this'll be subject to the approval of our mods first, so we musn't get our hopes up.

Okay, I think that's all for today, folks. Must dash to school now.

Gryff out.

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Weeny Owl - Feb 15, 2005 11:23 pm (#489 of 1858)

Now, what could possibly be more major than a ship involving the MAIN character (Harry) and ANOTHER member of the trio (Hermione)? Of course, Ron and Hermione! And as I've said earlier, if R/Hr and H/OC (other character) happen, Harry's ship will be shunted aside because whether we admit it or not, R/Hr will be the highlight or focus ship in the story (I'm not talking about the plots, subplots or anything else). So what's the point of making Harry's ultimate ship only second-fiddle to R/Hr?

I don't see that at all.

JKR is building up to something regarding the trio's relationships, and the only problem is that some of us see it as being Ron and Hermione with Harry and someone else while others see it as being Harry and Hermione.

While I like to debate how I view canon regarding nearly everything including relationships, I don't see how anyone's relationship with someone else could possibly matter.

If Ron and Hermione end up together, then I will still be just as interested in the girl Harry ends up with. If Harry and Hermione end up together, I'll still be just as interested in the girl Ron ends up with. If Harry, Ron, and Hermione find someone outside of their inner circle, that will be just as interesting.

From what JKR has said in interviews, she finds all of these relationship discussions to be fun, but her main objective has always been the story of a boy's fight with the big bad guy. The relationships are just, as I've said before, icing on the cake, and are basically unimportant.

The only thing of true importance, at least the way I see it, is how Harry will defeat Voldemort, and who will live and die. The relationships are nothing major to me at all, and who ends up with whom is just an amusing detour to me.

If JKR never included any relationships in these books, I would love them just as much, although I would have one less topic to debate between books, and that's all the relationships are to me... something to while away the time until the next book.

As I read canon, though, I truly see Ron and Hermione together, although Harry's relationship could go nearly any way at all. The canon references are much more valid to me when viewing them from the perspective of Ron and Hermione than with either of them with anyone else.

Having said that, though, I still don't see how anyone's romantic relationships are at all important to the books or how any relationship can overshadow anything else.

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Solitaire - Feb 15, 2005 11:33 pm (#490 of 1858)

Wow, this thread went crazy all of a sudden! Was it Valentine's Day that did it? I couldn't believe how many new posts there were. Alas, I'm afraid I must stand with the Harry/? group. I clicked on the pic before I read the other posts, and a "?" was exactly what popped into my mind. So the "?" is my first choice on that mystery letter. I suppose it could be an "S" or a "G." I am so sorry to say it looked nothing like a "P" or an "H." Of course, that is JM2K.

I still don't care who any of them winds up with ultimately ... just as long as they are all alive and well and happy on the last page of book 7 ... and that includes any potential adult 'ships, as well.

Solitaire

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The One - Feb 16, 2005 12:20 am (#491 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
No matter what happens, HIS ship will be the major one, and not any other secondary ship. Let me expound: the one major ship which will happen eventually is the one involving Harry AND a girl (with Ron and Hermione ending up with other people) or ANY TWO members of the trio (either H/Hr or R/Hr). Now, what could possibly be more major than a ship involving the MAIN character (Harry) and ANOTHER member of the trio (Hermione)? Of course, Ron and Hermione! And as I've said earlier, if R/Hr and H/OC (other character) happen, Harry's ship will be shunted aside because whether we admit it or not, R/Hr will be the highlight or focus ship in the story

I agree with the Ghost. I R/Hr happens, Harry is likely to stay singel for the duration of the series, just like Luke in Star Wars. But that is not what I expect to happen.

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TGF - Feb 16, 2005 12:32 am (#492 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Good subplots tie into the main plot of a story in a way that isn't superficial. A subplot isn't just a story within a story that one could easily pull out without any detriment to the workings of the overall plot. A subplot is rather, directly or indirectly, integral to the development of any given story's main plot. Having an 'unimportant subplot' is not something one usually expects from great literature.

Right now, it may seem that the romance bits are just silly irrelevancies... the bulk of the Yule Ball and Beatle at Bay chapters do not seem at first glance, considering their functions within each of their books. But these stories are not over. We have had very real declaration by Dumbledore that love is the most powerful element Harry has at his disposal. What seems right now to be just a grand diversion may very well prove to be quite important indeed.

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Eric Bailey - Feb 16, 2005 1:06 am (#493 of 1858)

Well, since they did the "Harry loves ?" tease, he isn't going to go without romance in this next book. I have to agree with those that said that IF R/Hr happens, Harry won't get shoved to the sidelines. If anything, Harry's girfriend will take space from Ron and Hermione, since this would appear not to be Cho Redux.

If not Hermione, I'm guessing Luna. She IS supposed to be Hermione's equal, after all.

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dizzy lizzy - Feb 16, 2005 1:29 am (#494 of 1858)

There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
I think I'll have to stand with Solitaire and others and join the Harry/? group.

I reckon whoever dreamed this up over at Bloomsbury, is laughing at how many knots it's tied everyone up in. Oh well, gives us something to do until July 16.

Lizzy

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frogface - Feb 16, 2005 5:17 am (#495 of 1858)

Edited by Denise P. Feb 16, 2005 6:14 am
No, I did mean "Has is taken away from Harry's role in the books?" By which I mean, has it made him less important? and the answer remains no in my opinion. Harry has remained the main focus of my attention when I read the books, and I'm sure it has for most of the other readers. Which is probably as it should be. As for the mystery name, well it looks like the tip of a loop to me. So I'm guessing its either a Q(yeah right) and O maybe a G or a C or S. xxxkieranxxx

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coolbeans3131 - Feb 16, 2005 6:23 am (#496 of 1858)

Yay for Valentines Day! It got this thread hopping again! My thoughts after reading all these posts

-It's been implied that love is going to help Harry out in the end with Voldemort. If romantic love is the love, or one of the loves, it won't be a crush of any kind, it will be a deep, real, strong love. I can't see that happening with anyone other than Hermione. I also don't think it necessarily has to be Harry feeling the love that will help him. It could be the love someone else feels for him that could be the key, like his mothers love helped last time.

-As for R/H, I'm not blind. I know it could happen. It just doesn't seem too likely to me. Why was Jo so careful with the R/H hints in OotP? Why are they even hints? Why not just have them progress in their relationship right through the books? Ron's feelings are crystal clear. Hermione's are not. She could like Ron, Harry, Krum, Neville, Snape or no one at all for all we know. She has certain feelings for all these guys, we just don't know her romantic inclinations toward any of them. If it's Ron, then why the big secret?

For me R/H is too straight forward. It's not complicated or interesting. H/H is not. It would be very complicated given Ron's feelings. I think it going to be a complicated mess, that does impact the finale of the book.

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Solitaire - Feb 16, 2005 8:14 am (#497 of 1858)

Has anyone considered the possibility of Harry remaining "stag" for a while (no pun intended ... okay, yes, it was!) after it is all over ... making the assumption he survives? After all, he's only going to be about 18, unless the seventh book covers more than a year of time. Given Wizarding age spans, his biological clock would barely have started ticking!

Solitaire

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Czarina II - Feb 16, 2005 9:02 am (#498 of 1858)

I actually agree that the mystery letter is a '?' as well.

Here is a full list, however, of the letters that it could be (excluding the letters that don't conform with the font already in the picture):

C, G, O, Q, S

Other possibilities (presuming the font is altered):

B, D, P, R

Elusive question mark is definitely my best guess.

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Choices - Feb 16, 2005 10:27 am (#499 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
You know, I am a Harry/Hermione fan, but I have begun to think how hard it would hit Ron if he (once again) lost out to Harry. It seems Harry gets all the glory and attention - Ron takes a backseat to him in just about everything. We know Ron likes Hermione (even if he doesn't quite realize it....yet) and if she ends up with Harry it would just be too cruel. I am in such a quandry over this and I think that is just where JKR wants us to be.

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TomProffitt - Feb 16, 2005 10:39 am (#500 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
"We know Ron likes Hermione (even if he doesn't quite realize it....yet)" --- Choices

The more I re-read and think about it, the more I come to believe that Harry is the one who doesn't realize it. I think it is Harry who is oblivious to the growing relationship right under his nose.

Now that I've written that I feel compelled to re-read (once again) and verify that inclination. (Could be real wrong on this one, it's just a hunch.)

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 501 to 550)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:43 am

Choices - Feb 16, 2005 10:45 am (#501 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
You could be right Tom. But when it comes to girls, I think Harry and Ron are both still basically in denial.....and I don't mean a river in Egypt!! LOL I look at Ron and Hermione fussing after the Yule Ball - Hermione telling him he should have asked her early and not just as a last resort. Ron didn't know what she meant because he either doesn't realize or won't admit he is jealous. Even Harry could see that "Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had."

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Tomoé - Feb 16, 2005 10:47 am (#502 of 1858)

Back in business
Coolbeans -> Ron's feelings are crystal clear. Hermione's are not. She could like Ron, Harry, Krum, Neville, Snape or no one at all for all we know.

I have that feeling too, and Hermione know Ron fancy her. So I'd say she's not interested in him / not interested in him yet.

On the screen shot topic, look how Harry's P are written, with no curve at all. They didn't use the same font for the girl's name. Which convince me even more that it's a ?.

On a different topic (but still on the 'ship topic, of course), the Captain of Slytherin Quidditch team is named Montague, do you think his first name is Romeo? Do you think he could 'ship someone from Gryffindor?

Edit: Like Tom, I believe Ron know what his feelings are for Hermione, and he have sent her clues already, he's just waiting for a sign on her behalf to ask her out officially.

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Weeny Owl - Feb 16, 2005 11:58 am (#503 of 1858)

Why not just have them progress in their relationship right through the books?

1. As of OotP they're still only 15-16.

2. They're in the midst of some difficult times during OotP, and since it's told basically from Harry's perspective, we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes between other characters.

3. The romantic relationships aren't the main focus of the books, and JKR has known for ages how much people are interested in who ends up with whom, so maybe she's stringing her audience along because it amuses her, or maybe she had it planned that way from the beginning. Either way, the romances aren't what seems to be important.

While love might be important throughout the books, I really can't see how any romance of Harry's could possibly impact the outcome, unless Marcus is right and it's with Pansy.

Harry and Hermione together make no sense at all to me. Ron and Hermione make a great deal of sense.

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Joanne R. Reid - Feb 16, 2005 12:00 pm (#504 of 1858)

So far, we have all argued from the perspecive of cannon, i.e., that which comes directly from the books or the mouth of JKR.

However, I've been thinking about the movies in relation to canon. In both CoS and PoA, Hermione is seen to be attracted to Ron rather than Harry. We remember the scene at the end of CoS in which both Ron and Hermione pull back from a hug only to shake hands. And, in PoA, we remember the scene in which Buckbeak seemed to have been beheaded. Hermione collapsed onto Ron's shoulder, and Harry patted her on her back.

I vaguely remember some kind of an interview with JKR, in which she was asked about these scenes. She agreed that they were not in her books, but also suggested that they were not innaccurate. She seemed to indicate that she had approved of these scenes, because they would be borne out in her later books.

Now, I haven't done a search on this. If it was anywhere, it was probably in one of the supplementary DVDs in the set. Does anyone else remember such an interview or occurance? If so, it could shed considerable light on our discussions.

Thanks,

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Denise P. - Feb 16, 2005 12:03 pm (#505 of 1858)

Ravenclaw Pony
Discussions involving any aspect of the movies need to take place on the movie thread.

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Joanne R. Reid - Feb 16, 2005 12:25 pm (#506 of 1858)

Hi, Denise,

Sorry. I didn't realize that I shouldn't even mention them. It did seem relevant.

However, I will abandon this line of reasoning in this forum and pursue it in the movie thread.

Thanks,

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TGF - Feb 16, 2005 2:16 pm (#507 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
"After all, he's only going to be about 18, unless the seventh book covers more than a year of time."

JKR has mentioned an epilogue, Soli. So we will know the general futures of the survivors of book 7, more or less.

"On a different topic (but still on the 'ship topic, of course), the Captain of Slytherin Quidditch team is named Montague, do you think his first name is Romeo? Do you think he could 'ship someone from Gryffindor?"

Montague I think is his first name (the Lexicon has his name as only 'Montague', though it's entirely possible that he's just one of those people that people refer to by their last name) and the fact that he joined Umbridge's Inquisitorial Squad seems to indicate to me that he doesn't have any real pro-Gryffindor tendencies.

The Lexicon also surmises that he's two years older than Harry, which means he's just graduated, so time's pretty much up for Monty to turn over a new leaf and fall in love with some lovely Gryffindor Capulet.

"Ron's feelings are crystal clear. Hermione's are not."

This is an important point. People often cite the OotP Christmas gifts that Ron and Harry each gave her in order to argue their respective positions... Ron gave perfume, which is very much a 'girlfriend' gift, while Harry gave her a book, which is very much a 'Hermione' gift... But is the fact that she gave each of them the same thing indicitive of anything?

Now, I'm not suggesting some kind of sappy love triangle deal in saying that. I'm simply pointing out that if Rowling wished R/H to be clearcut, she could've easily have had Hermione give Ron something that indicates some degree of hidden affection. But no, she didn't... what she feels in this regard is kept, more or less, hidden.

"While love might be important throughout the books, I really can't see how any romance of Harry's could possibly impact the outcome"

It's the natural extension of what we have had so far. Don't forget how magic ties into love. Harry survived Voldemort, two times, because of his mother's love. Harry absolutely flowed with love in his confrontation with Voldemort in book 4. And Harry's love for Sirius, the closest thing to a father he ever had, is what tossed Voldemort off of him in book 5. I think that this shows that the love which Harry feels can be a decisive thing within the books. It already *has* been decisive, so why can't it be so again?

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Eponine - Feb 16, 2005 2:38 pm (#508 of 1858)

The thing about Hermione's feelings is that Jo seems to think we should know how she feels. On her site, one of the FAQ's is "Who does Hermione love, Harry or Ron?". And her reply is, "I can't believe some of you haven't worked this one out yet." She seems to think that she's made it clear who Hermione has feelings for.

I feel that JKR is delaying the the relationships until the characters are at a realistic age to be in a serious relationship. If Ron and Hermione had realized in GoF that they were meant to be together (and they were intended to be each other's final partner), it wouldn't be completely realistic for two characters to be together from the time they were fourteen. However, if the pairing doesn't happen until book 6 or book 7, it's much easier to accept that those two characters lived happily ever after.

And as far as relationships go at the end of the books...for a woman who loves Jane Austen so much and other books that usually end with multiple weddings and things tied up neatly in a bow, I can't believe that she would leave it open to interpretation.
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TGF - Feb 16, 2005 2:42 pm (#509 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I think that was meant to be making fun of us, Eponine. The full quote is, after all:

"I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy."

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Eponine - Feb 16, 2005 2:55 pm (#510 of 1858)

Yes, but she's also stated that we've had enough clues by now when asked whether Harry and Hermione will ever be together. When asked if Ron and Hermione would get together she said pretty much the same thing, "I think that by now, I've given quite a lot of clues on the subject."

At this point, she is almost definitely not going to sink R/Hr or H/Hr in any interview, chat or other form of communication. These two 'ships will be addressed in canon and canon only. Personally, I wish people would stop asking about them because we know she's not going to answer, and we could get new information about something else with a different question.

It is my interpretation of her statements that she feels it should be clear which ship is going to float. I understand that others don't see it that way, but that is what I have inferred from her comments.

On a side note, did you all see the romance in HBP poll at Mugglenet?

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Chemyst - Feb 16, 2005 5:42 pm (#511 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Has anyone considered the possibility of Harry remaining "stag" for a while... Solitaire
Yes, and that is my first choice for a hero who will finish the series before he turns 18. That is the main reason I don't post to this thread more often. It leaves the trio as a little pyramid; Ron and Hermione make an equally-partnered base and Harry stands solidly upon their shoulders, alone at the apex.

I think JKR realizes she does have a responsibility to be true to her self and her own conscience, even in fiction. She may give us information in an epilogue, but at he end of year seven, Harry will have had no record of stable employment, possibly more vocational (auror?) training ahead, no income other than his inheritance, no independent real-life experiences, and still only a limited idea about what is involved in creating a home life. From information she has given us about her own life and failed first marriage, I can't see her rushing to develop any serious pairing for Harry until after the Voldemort prophecy is fulfilled. Until then, Harry should just have regular friends.

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Weeny Owl - Feb 16, 2005 9:35 pm (#512 of 1858)

It's the natural extension of what we have had so far. Don't forget how magic ties into love. Harry survived Voldemort, two times, because of his mother's love. Harry absolutely flowed with love in his confrontation with Voldemort in book 4. And Harry's love for Sirius, the closest thing to a father he ever had, is what tossed Voldemort off of him in book 5. I think that this shows that the love which Harry feels can be a decisive thing within the books. It already *has* been decisive, so why can't it be so again?

I'm all for love, and I'm all for love playing a part in defeating Voldemort.

I am not, however, all for romantic love being a main part of defeating Voldemort mainly because I think it's sappy, and I just can't see JKR using a romantic-type of love to defeat the most evil wizard ever.

From what I interpret from the movie, Dorothy was alseep in "The Wizard of Oz," but at the end, what brought her back was a type of love... the love for home, even if she was dreaming. I can see JKR using something similar with Harry (the love - not the dreaming), but I can't see her making a romantic pairing that important to the ultimate end of things.

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Betelgeuse Black - Feb 17, 2005 6:43 am (#513 of 1858)

I have to agree that Harry will not be in a "romantic love" relationship for the balance of the story. Harry has enough to deal with without adding another commitment to his burdens.

Having said that, I think that Harry will have some sort of involvement with a girl or girls. It's just human nature to seek out the opposite sex. Hormones, you know. :-) It's kind of like how Cho fit into the story in GoF and OotP... she was a distraction but not a big part of his life. Dumbledore didn't make Harry a prefect since he had enough to getting on with. Harry doesn't have enough time or emotional bandwidth to handle a real relationship.

Just my 2 knuts, Betelgeuse

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Krypt 24 - Feb 17, 2005 7:55 am (#514 of 1858)

I agree with "?" because it is centered with the bottom of the heart. Either that or "Cho"!

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 17, 2005 2:05 pm (#515 of 1858)

The missing letter at the bottom of the magic "Harry loves..." is a G, and the G stands for GRAWP.

Yes, folks, it will be revealed that Hagrid made a MASSIVE mistake; Grawp is in fact his SISTER, and is madly in love with Harry! Their marriage at the end of book 6 will unite the human and Giant worlds, and the combined forces will then go on to 'crush' Voldemort.

Oh, sorry... isn't it April 1 yet?

(giggle)

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Joanne R. Reid - Feb 18, 2005 7:49 am (#516 of 1858)

Muggle Doctor,

I'm way beyond LOL. I achieved a fully-fledged Guffaw! ;-D

Thanks,

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 18, 2005 6:22 pm (#517 of 1858)

I honestly don't think it will be Cho. My best guess is still "?"

It's rather funny, Muggle Doctor, but sorry, it's still February.

As for JKR's interviews, I think she already answered the question: Will Hermione end up with Ron or Harry?

Just take a look at her answers:

H/Hr question — Will Harry and Hermione get together?

JK: (LOL) Not saying, but you've had enough clues by now, surely?

R/Hr question — Will Ron and Hermione ever get together?

JK: Well—[Laughter.] What do you think? [Audience member: I think they will]. I’m not going to say. I can’t say, can I? I think that, by now, I’ve given quite a lot of clues on the subject. That is all I’m going to say. You will have to read between the lines on that one.

See? When asked about H/Hr, she immediately says she's not saying, but that we should have had enough clues by that time (which was after OotP, I think). When asked about R/Hr, however, she adds, "you'll have to read between the lines on that one."

Sounds familiar, eh? That's what we H/Hr shippers always say: read between the lines, and you'll see H/Hr. And what about the R/Hr camp? They always say, "ISN'T IT OBVIOUS??" Now, when something is obvious, you don't have to read between the lines, right? And guess what? After that interview (which was during the Edinburgh Book Festival, by the way, and can be read here), R/Hrs suddenly start saying that to see R/Hr, one must also read between the lines. Bit confusing, isn't it?

IMHO, this question was already answered by that latest interview. And this is not just my shippy side talking. Just look at the logic:

Premise 1: JKR tells us to read between the lines to see the true ship.

Premise 2: H/Hr is seen by reading between the lines.

Therefore, H/Hr is the true ship.

And:

Premise 1: Obvious things don't require reading between the lines to be seen.

Premise 2: R/Hr is obvious.

Therefore, R/Hr does not require reading between the lines.

What do you think?

Gryff out.

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Choices - Feb 18, 2005 7:53 pm (#518 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, JKR has given us plenty of clues and all we have to do is figure them out. But wait....this is JKR we are dealing with......the absolute queen of misleading clues and mysterious innuendos. How are we, the innocent reader, supposed to figure out which are real clues and which are of the red fishy type? It isn't as easy or straight forward as she makes it out to be......as we all know from experience. OK gang, back to waiting and wondering and guessing - that's the best we can do until she decides to spill the beans.

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Eric Bailey - Feb 18, 2005 11:13 pm (#519 of 1858)

Personally, I support The Sixpack. They all love each other, and coming to some arrangement is the only way everyone will be satisfied. The Shippers, I mean. Smile

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 19, 2005 1:40 am (#520 of 1858)

Sixpack as in Harry & Hermione, Ron & Luna, Neville & Ginny, right?

Yes, I think there's a reason for this particular grouping; I just hope the pairings will eventually be the ultimate ones.

July 16 is taking so long! (Can't we just grab a Time Turner and travel into the future so we can fast-forward to the blessed day?)

Gryff out.

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frogface - Feb 19, 2005 4:05 am (#521 of 1858)

R/Hr DOES require reading between the lines because it has not been categorically stated in the books that there is something going on between them. People change their tacks when making cases for their arguements all the time, and a statement by JKR is always likely to make people change their approach in making their arguement, so to be honest I feel that your statement was unfair and without merit.

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Eric Bailey - Feb 19, 2005 6:08 am (#522 of 1858)

Well, you can't say Ron and Hermione being attracted to each other has been, in any way, "between the lines". It's been about as blatent as you can get. Harry's and Hermione's connection has been more subtle, so I see where the H/Hr people are coming from. H/Hr is more compatable and relaxed than R/Hr (bicker, bicker, bicker). We've seen JKR sink two Ships over lack of campatability (H/C, N/L), so Ron and Hermione are going to have to do something besides alternate between panting at and insulting each other if they're going to work out. Plus, the Luna Factor throws a couple of other possibilities into the mix.

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coolbeans3131 - Feb 19, 2005 6:21 am (#523 of 1858)

Ron's attraction to Hermione is blatent. I can't think of one blatent example of Hermione being attrated to Ron. Let me clarify. Not one example where that's the only possibilty. That's where I think reading between the lines comes in with R/H. Not with Ron's feelings, but with Hermione's.

To change the subject a bit, I've been wondering how people feel about Ron's feelings for Hermione. Is he in love with her, or is it just a crush?

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frogface - Feb 19, 2005 6:50 am (#524 of 1858)

As I take it, the term "reading between the lines" simply means picking up a meaning of something that isn't spelled out properly in words, by which I mean Ron saying to Hermione "I fancy you". And so the fact that there seems to be a lot of tension between them and they throuwjealous looks at people like Krum when he is with Hermione at the Yule Ball and Fleur when she kisses Ron for me means "reading between the lines", although I could be wrong.

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The One - Feb 19, 2005 9:39 am (#525 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
I agree with coolbeans. The idea that Hermione is attracted to Ron does require quit a bit of reading between the lines. And the answer was to the question "Does Hermione love Harry or Hermione." So the answer does make sense if Hermione does in fact fall in love with Ron.

Saying that interpreting Ron as jealous at the Yule Ball is "Reading between the lines" is to strech it quit a bit though.

I do not quite see the point of writting one half of the Ron and Hermione relationship as blatantly obvious, and the other half as subtle though. So I interpret Hermione as not being interested in Ron as being the most probable explanation for no obvious interest being shown.

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Solitaire - Feb 19, 2005 12:22 pm (#526 of 1858)

There are two books left, so I don't think we should automatically assume any 'ship we see take off in Book 6 is necessarily the "ultimate" one for that particular character. Ginny's "revolving door" romantic style still seems more like what I'm used to seeing among the average kids I know. They are getting to know a variety of people, so that they can make better decisions.

Eponine brought up JKR's affinity for Jane Austen. Jane certainly did like to resolve any relationship problems and tie up the key relationships neatly. She also voiced very strongly the importance of knowing one's mate well before marrying (through the positive example of Elizabeth and Darcy and the negative example of Charlotte Lucas Collins in P&P); so I doubt we will see Jo commit any characters she really loves to relationships that are not compatible or appropriate for them. Smile

Solitaire

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Tomoé - Feb 19, 2005 3:36 pm (#527 of 1858)

Back in business
In OoP (I don't remember exactly where, but I'm sure some of you know and will quote it in the next post), Hermione said to Harry he was even more clueless than Ron when it comes to girl, but then said no he wasn't.

I can't shake off the feeling that Hermione fancy Harry and he just don't get it, while Ron don't get she's not interested.

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Solitaire - Feb 19, 2005 5:19 pm (#528 of 1858)

I do remember Harry being upset about Cho crying when they kissed after the pre-Christmas DA meeting (Chapter 21). Ron, of course, pointed out so helpfully that "You'd think a bit of kissing would cheer her up."

Hermione tried to explain ... "Well, obviously, she's feeling very sad, because of Cedric dying. Then I expect she's feeling confused because she liked Cedric and now she likes Harry, and she can't work out who she likes best. Then she'll be feeling guilty, thinking it's an insult to Cedric's memory to be kissing Harry at all, and she'll be worrying about what everyone else might say about her if she starts going out with Harry. And she probably can't work out what her feelings towards Harry are, anyway, because he was the one who was with Cedric when Cedric died, so that's all very mixed up and painful. Oh, and she's afraid she's going to be thrown off the Ravenclaw Quidditch team because she's been flying so badly."

When Ron said that no one could feel all those things at once or they'd explode, Hermione told him, "Just because you've got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have."

It sounds to me like Hermione realizes both Ron and Harry need to mature a bit for real romance. She seems more tolerant of Harry's shortcomings here, but perhaps she's been able to work out how this area of his life has been repressed with the emotionally stunted Dursleys. Being allowed to express any feeling (CAPSLOCK or other) is still relatively new to Harry. She knows Ron does not have this excuse, having grown up in a warm, loving family. Also, if she has feelings for the emotionally clueless Ron, he might exasperate her more than Harry. Just a thought ...

Solitaire

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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 19, 2005 7:20 pm (#529 of 1858)

I Am Almighty!
It took two posts, Tomoé, but it is on page 572 of the US edition:

"Harry, you're worse than Ron....Well, no, you're not," she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall splattered with mud and looking grumpy.

In the same conversation, Hermione tells Harry that he should have told Cho that he thought that she, Hermione, was ugly. Would she have said this, or have been helping him with his girl problems at all, for that matter, it she secretly has feelings for him.

As for the quotes that were being discussed, I think the second one, where JKR laughed, then said, "What do you think," was practically an admission of the R/H 'ship.

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Choices - Feb 19, 2005 7:40 pm (#530 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Vlad - "Would she have said this, or have been helping him with his girl problems at all, for that matter, it she secretly has feelings for him."

Yes, I think she might. Hermione obviously has deep feelings for both Ron and Harry. Friendship is very important to her and she counts them both as her best friends. Perhaps for one she has deeper "romantic" feelings, but I don't think any of them are quite ready for that yet. So yes, as a friend, I think Hermione would give Harry advice on his relationship with Cho..... and if someday he realizes his feelings are for Hermione, maybe she has helped him to become a more sensative person and that will benefit her relationship with him. You could possibly call her advice to him, "an investment in the future". LOL

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 20, 2005 2:29 am (#531 of 1858)

Yeah, and that's where Ginny comes in, Choices, to advise Harry about his feelings for Hermione, because, as I have said in a previous post, Harry can hardly walk up to Hermione and say, "Hermione, I need your advice on how am I going to tell you that I fancy you," can he? That would be very comical, not to mention embarrassing and awkward. Hey, that's nice, "investment for the future," LOL.

JKR's answer, "(LOL) Not saying, but you've had enough clues by now, surely?" looks to me as an admission of H/Hr, as opposed to her answer to the R/Hr question.

Anyway, when it comes to reading between the lines, I think Hermione's sudden loss of interest in Quidditch shows a very subtle hint of her feelings for her two best friends. Just look at it: she was very enthusiastic about Quidditch during the past four years, when Harry was playing for Gryffindor. While you can't exactly say she's a fanatic, at least she's supportive, and even went to the Gryffindor-Ravenclaw match in third year even with her immense workload. She also attended the QWC in GoF, and she enthusiastically supported Ireland (hey, she was jumping up and down everytime the Irish Chasers score, remember?). In OotP, she wore Gryffindor scarves and gloves to the first Quidditch match (where Harry and Ron both played), but prior to the second match (when Harry was banned from the team), she specifically stated that her "happiness doesn't depend on Ron's goalkeeping ability," which was then translated by Harry and JKR as "not caring about Quidditch,"and that, "Quidditch is just a game." Add to that the fact that she fell asleep during Ron's party, and was relieved to leave the same party when Harry left it (which means she only stayed out of good manners). She even left Ron's Quidditch Final to go with Harry and Hagrid. And, she was always skeptic about Ron's abilities, in contrast to her faith in and being proud of, Harry's abilities. ("Has Ron saved a goal yet?" or "Was he lousy?", anyone?)

I daresay one need not read between the lines on this one. It's quite clear: Hermione doesn't care about Quidditch when Harry wasn't playing, but she was known to "squint fixedly at Harry" while the latter was playing, to not notice a fight happening right under her nose and involving one of her best friends because her full attention was focused on Harry, to leave the shelter of the stands during a match in a storm to help Harry see the Snitch, to jump up and down and hug Parvati Patil and announce, "Harry's won! We've won!" when Harry caught the Snitch, to never miss a match even with so much homework and to sound slightly offended when Harry asked her if she came to the match, etc.

Ron may like Hermione as more than a friend (though I have reason to believe he doesn't), but as far as I can understand, Hermione only loves Ron as a friend, nothing more. Perhaps she doesn't realize it yet (though I'm sure she does, bright as she is), but she has feelings for Harry. Feelings, I might add, which are more than just friendship.

Gryff out.

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TGF - Feb 20, 2005 2:56 am (#532 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I enjoy reading your posts, Gryffindor Ghost, you make some excellent points. It's nice to see someone as firmly convinced of the beauty of the H/Hr dynamic as I am.

But...

"Ron may like Hermione as more than a friend (though I have reason to believe he doesn't)"

What are those, if I may ask? There are few people that would be willing to say that these days... Ron wears his feelings on his sleeves, and there's a lot in the books which say that he does indeed like Hermione. I'm curious... What makes you think that he doesn't?

Again, you make excellent posts, please keep it up. Smile

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Choices - Feb 20, 2005 10:30 am (#533 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I second that Gryffindor Ghost - excellent post.

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Timothy Bourgeois - Feb 20, 2005 11:11 am (#534 of 1858)

Here's my opinion . Ron and Hermione will end up together . I think she likes both Harry and Ron , but she settles for Ron because she can't have Harry . Harry and Ginny will hook up . Think about it , in books 1-4 , Ginny idolizes Harry and Harry doesn't really notice her as anything more than her being Ron's sister . In book 5 , she has given up on Harry and starts seeing other people (but Hermione tells Harry that Ginny still likes him) . I believe Harry will start getting jealous and start showing interest .

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Weeny Owl - Feb 20, 2005 1:21 pm (#535 of 1858)

Interesting post, Gryffindor, but everything you said I see as just the opposite.

Hermione knows there are things going on in the Wizarding World that affect Harry more than they might affect everyone else, and since she is now part of that world, she's going to help out however she can.

She didn't pay attention to the fight not because she has a thing for Harry but because she wanted to see if Harry would be attacked again during a Quidditch match. She didn't just mention that Harry had won... her first thought was for Ron... Ron! Ron! Where are you? The game's over! Harry's won! We've won!

I can picture that in the final battle... Harry wins and the entire Wizarding World wins, but her first thoughts are for Ron.

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Eponine - Feb 20, 2005 1:50 pm (#536 of 1858)

I have some questions. Bear with me, because I'm going to give some background first.

I didn't get involved in the forum or any HP related stuff online until several months after OotP had been released. I had discussed the books with my sister and my best friend and that was about it. Reading through the books, I felt it was fairly obvious where Jo was going with the pairings. I was quite surprised when I got involved online to discover that people thought Harry and Hermione might end up together. Quite honestly, that thought had never even crossed my mind. I've heard other people make the same statement, and I've heard people state that they were surprised to find people ship R/Hr.

When I first found out that people shipped this, I thought there might be a possibility of it happening, but it still didn't feel right to me. As time has progressed, I've read extremely heated shipping debates that involved personal attacks from all sides. (Not on here, we're usually quite civilized) Because of the animosity that seems to exist among certain camps, I've found that my dislike of certain ships has increased exponentially since I've been involved online.

I've also heard people state that if the books end up with certain characters pairing off, they will never pick the books up again, burn them or other extreme actions. I wonder if these people felt that way before they got involved online.

So, after a lot of rambling, here are my questions...How has the online HP community affected your shipping views? Do you think that it has made you more or less open to certain pairings? Did anything online change your mind about conclusions you had drawn from reading the books prior to coming online?

For myself, I've found that nothing online has changed the conclusions I had come to before. It has made me more adamantly against certain pairings, but not to the point where I wouldn't accept them if that's what Jo wrote.

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TGF - Feb 20, 2005 2:52 pm (#537 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Eponine, I only post on this HP board for that reason.

Hardcore shippers have literally read my posts on this board and sent me E-mails, trying to recruit me into their 'wars' on the Mugglenet boards. The moment I heard the expression 'HMS Harmony' (along with whatever the Ron/Hermione one is called) I knew that there was something I desperately had to avoid.

Not that I haven't read and had heated discussions on the topic on this board before, but over here I can at least count on a certain level of maturity here. I don't think anyone on this board is going to burn the books if Colin Creevey and Millicent Bullstrode don't express their eternal love for one another, after all.

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TomProffitt - Feb 20, 2005 5:22 pm (#538 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Eponine, I have always assumed the R/Hr 'ship as obvious.

What the forum has done for me is to challenge my view of myself as open-minded. I have always strived to be objective and people on the forum challenge my objectivity. e.g. I've always had a very low opinion of Snape and am extremely surprised by the amount of positive reactions towards him.

The forum hasn't really changed any of my opinions, but it has certainly encouraged me to take a little more care in forming them.

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Choices - Feb 20, 2005 5:52 pm (#539 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I do so enjoy reading what others on this forum have to say. I confess I am a Pisces and tend to swim which ever way the tide is running - usually. I am a Harry/Hermione person, but I can read an argument for Ron/Hermione and see how that might be. I am not adament about my preference, so either way JKR writes it, will be fine with me.

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 20, 2005 6:00 pm (#540 of 1858)

I don't think anyone on this board is going to burn the books if Colin Creevey and Millicent Bullstrode don't express their eternal love for one another, after all.

One of the best lines I've read on this board!

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Solitaire - Feb 20, 2005 6:44 pm (#541 of 1858)

Now I must reread everything and look for that Colin-Millie connection. I confess ... it has escaped me. Well, at least it will give me something to do for a while.

As for the forum affecting my 'shipping views ... nah. The only ships that really interest me are any potential adult relationships--McGonagall/Dumbledore and maybe Tonks/Remus would be fun. I think all of the kids are still pretty young to be set in permanent 'ships, and based on my observations of adolescents, I suspect there will be a lot more "relationship musical chairs" before the series is over.

Solitaire

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Eponine - Feb 20, 2005 6:58 pm (#542 of 1858)

Just to clarify, I don't mean just this forum. I'm curious if any of the other sites out there has affected your views in any way. I know that a lot of us don't venture out beyond the forum much, but for those who do, I'd like to hear your thoughts also.
Oh, and Colin/Millicent is my new favorite. Sorry, Umbridge/Filch!

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Weeny Owl - Feb 20, 2005 9:33 pm (#543 of 1858)

Well, dang it, Eponine. I was so hoping you'd join me in the erm... joys. Nope, that's not right. Happiness? Nah, doesn't work. The absolute psychoticness? Yeah, that's it! The absolute psychoticness of Umbridge and Filch.

My opinions about who will end up with whom are not set in stone, but perhaps in a bit of still-damp cement.

I love the books, and as I've said before, even if there were no romantic pairing whatsoever, I'd still love them. The romance just gives me something to discuss while waiting for the next book, but I really couldn't care less what pairings work out in the end, as long as the characters I love still live. Although even if JKR did kill off a couple of people I want alive, I would still reread all the books from time to time.

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frogface - Feb 21, 2005 3:18 am (#544 of 1858)

Thats one of the things I love about this forum. On so many places on the internet you get people who just want to spoil to for their own fun, here there is a level of maturity and I've never seen anyone degrade themselves into some kind of tantrum simply because their idea's weren't agreed with. My views on Shipping have mostly stayed the same but the forum has forced me to open my eyes abit and I'm fully aware that things could probably go anyway! Which I kind of like.

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The One - Feb 21, 2005 8:13 am (#545 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
Well, when I first entered fandom the Lex forum was the first I read. I did not post for quite some time. At that time I had read the three first books without thinking much about ships, just noted that Harry seemed closer to Hermione than Harry did, and that Hermione and Ron was clashing a lot. At that point I just interpreted it as Harry and Hermione being close friends, and Ron not being quite happy about Hermione being so clever.

Then, in GoF, Hermione's immense loyalty and care for Harry, combined with Ron's reactions to the Yule Ball brought romanence into my mind. Ron and Hermione? That made no sense? Ron's interest, while not anticipated by me, made some sense as Ron had got into fights and worried about her at several points. But the other way? When did she show anything for Ron? She will go for Harry if any. That was my reactions. At the end of the book it looked like Ron->Hermione->Cho<->Cederic but Cederic was dead. There was signs in the books that Harry might have been accepted by Cho had he asked first. On re-reading I noticed that Hermione's disdain for Fleur, might also be interpreted as jealosy because of Ron, but originally I interpreted that as Hermione' reaction to boys going for looks alone.

But then I discovered the Lexicon, and the forum. And I discovered that these questions was much debated. And I more or less got the impression that Ron/Hermione was a given, that anyone that could possibly think that Harry/Hermione was a possibility had to be out of his mind, with no connection to either reality or literature, etc. etc. That proveked me quite a bit, and I started to analyze things more cloesly. I also looked for other sites, found SQ that is quite pro R(Hr, and portkey that is the other, and decided: My original impression was the most likely. Still, I was very uncertain when the OotP came, I did not know what would happen, and feared that the R/Hr crowd might be right.

Feared, not because I disliked the Ron/Hermione relationship that much, (even if I do like the idea of the Harry/Hermione relationship much better), but because the meeting with the shipping community had made me stubborn. After having read and reread the OotP everything seemed to have moved in the direction of H/Hr and I fully expect that to happen. (Yeas, it was not clear to me after the first reading)

But to answer the question: The fandom has not changed my original perception of the realtionship betweeen the characters much. A lot of the details in my analys have been changed, both by input from the "opposing" side and the "friendly" side.

The answer thus is: My views have not changed much, but I have become more stubborn.

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Choices - Feb 21, 2005 10:39 am (#546 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Filch and Umbridge - Talk about a rated X relationship. It boggles the mind!! LOL

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The One - Feb 21, 2005 10:41 am (#547 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
Is there any realtionship containing Umbrigde that doesn't?

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wwtMask - Feb 21, 2005 11:26 am (#548 of 1858)

Umbridge and Fudge?

Anyway, I want to address a comment by someone about why Hermione would give Harry relationship advice if she was interested in him. Honestly, such a thing isn't impossible, especially between friends. I've seen a lot of males end up doing the same thing with a female friend in whom they are interested. Depending on the person, the desire to act as a friend can sometimes override the desire to act as a potential mate, especially for shy or unconfident individuals. Being friends, in this situation, makes everything awkward if things don't work out.

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The One - Feb 21, 2005 11:41 am (#549 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
Anyway, I want to address a comment by someone about why Hermione would give Harry relationship advice if she was interested in him. Honestly, such a thing isn't impossible, especially between friends. I've seen a lot of males end up doing the same thing with a female friend in whom they are interested. Depending on the person, the desire to act as a friend can sometimes override the desire to act as a potential mate, especially for shy or unconfident individuals. Being friends, in this situation, makes everything awkward if things don't work out.

Excactly. I also have seen similar things in real life.

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Albus Silente - Feb 21, 2005 4:15 pm (#550 of 1858)

IMO, the only teacher at hogwarts i can see having having a relationship is prof. sprout. i don't know if it's just movie-contamination or somewhat... but she's the one who gives me the impression of beeing a- how you say in english?- truthful and loyal wife to somebody.

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 551 to 600)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:45 am

frogface - Feb 21, 2005 4:44 pm (#551 of 1858)
I reckon Dumbledore may have a wife, and possibly McGonagall has a husband (I don't think they're married to each other though!) Other teachers may be married but I don't see which ones are important enough for that information to be 'classified'. Other than Snape or Hagrid. We can safely say Hagrid isn't and I strongly doubt Snape is.

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Solitaire - Feb 21, 2005 8:24 pm (#552 of 1858)

Why would Hermione give Harry relationship counsel about another girl if she herself likes him? Hm ... ever read Cyrano de Bergerac? Ever see Some Kind of Wonderful? I'm not saying that Hermione does care romantically for Harry. I'm just saying that offering him romantic help with Cho would not preclude it.

As for telling Harry he should have told Cho he thought Hermione was ugly--I suppose that could be interpreted as Hermione fishing for a compliment ... or at least trying to find out if he does find her attractive. I think a lot of the things we are considering can be interpreted in more than one way.

Solitaire

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 22, 2005 1:03 am (#553 of 1858)

Whew! Quite some time before I visited again, and there are already so many posts! Okay, bear with me 'coz this is going to be another long one! I'll address the posts one by one.

First off, thanks to TGF (post 532) and Choices (post 533).

For Timothy's post, what do you mean, "Hermione will settle for Ron because she can't have Harry"? What, did JKR already say that Hermione won't have Harry? I also notice that you're a little contradictory here. You said you can see R/Hr getting together, but you also insinuated that Hermione might have feelings for Harry (hence the phrase, "can't have"). Which is which? And why would Harry start getting jealous? Of whom? Ginny? Nahh, I honestly don't think so.

Weeny, it's just a matter of differences in perception. As to your reasoning for Hermione's complete attention for Harry during the game, her actions just don't make sense from that point of view. Why? If she really wanted to make sure Harry won't get hurt, she should've watched Snape (who they suspected, even though it was in fact Quirrell) and see if "he shows any sign of wanting to hurt Harry," so she'll be able to use the Leg-Locker Curse on him. Isn't that what she and Ron planned to do? Just look at it: How can she see Snape doing something to Harry if she was watching the latter? Wouldn't it be better if she watched Snape, so that she could immediately curse him if he did something?

Her first thought was Ron...after what, fifteen minutes? When she didn't even notice him rolling around under her seat, wrestling with Malfoy?? And she has feelings for him? Well, that's your opinion, and I'm not going to contest that, I merely want to present facts and clues that point otherwise.

Eponine, when I first read SS/PS, my immediate reaction was: this girl (Hermione) will surely end up with Harry. In fact, I was also surprised to find other people shipping for R/Hr! But I won't throw my books away or burn them or anything if Harry and Hermione won't end up together (which I feel won't happen). How has the HP community affected my shipping views? Well, the H/Hr camp just strengthened my views, and the R/Hr camp made me laugh (no offense meant!). To be honest, when I first read GoF and saw those scenes where Hermione was being horrible to Fleur, I nearly doubted my ship. But when I re-read it and saw the reason behind Hermione's hostile treatment, I was immensely relieved. Had JKR not specified that Fleur was the same girl who laughed during Dumbledore's speech, I would have switched ships in an instant. But our dear author did say that Fleur was the same girl, and that's why Hermione was angry with her, so my views on shipping will not change anymore. I'm now positive that H/Hr will end up together, despite all those "obvious" reasons for R/Hr. But we should remember what the great Sherlock Holmes said: "Circumstancial evidence is a very tricky thing." The obvious things may point very clearly to something, but if we shift our points of view just a little, we may find that in fact they point in a rather compromising way to another, entirely different idea.

Again, let me voice my opinion of the obviousness of R/Hr: While R==>Hr may seem obvious, Hr==>R seems to me to be completely nonexistent (I'm talking about romantic feelings, not just friendship). While Ron may have shown some indications that he fancies Hermione, the latter hasn't shown any. To be honest, I sometimes think that Ron doesn't fancy Hermione, but he just sees her as a sister. There are some similarities between Ron's reactions to Michael Corner and Dean Thomas to his reactions to Viktor, Lockhart, (and, indeed, Harry). The whole Viktor Krum affair I can easily see as an example of Ron's jealousy because Hermione managed to get the attention of his idol, when he (Ron) wasn't even able to get Krum's autograph until the end of term. Well, that's just how I see it, but sometimes, I also think that Ron indeed fancies Hermione.

The One, I think what you meant was: Ron=>Hermione=>Harry=>Cho<=>Cedric but Cedric died, so it became Ron=>Hermione=>Harry<=>Cho. In OotP, it became Luna=>Ron=>Hermione=>Harry<=>Cho. Hopefully, in HBP, it will be Luna=>Ron Hermione<=>Harry, or maybe even Luna<=>Ron and Hermione<=>Harry. Think about it, it's quite possible. Luna, after all, seems to fancy Ron (I have many reasons to believe so). But of course, let's not forget Ginny<=>Neville.

Umbridge/Fudge is quite possible, but Millicent/Colin is rather far-fetched (I mean, give poor Colin a break! She's much too big for him, don't you think?).

Hermione gave Harry advice because she had to (as his best friend). But that doesn't rule out the fact that she might be hurting all the time while she was doing it. And if none of you noticed, her pieces of advice to Harry were all rather useless, because they were all rather too late. She only gave them after the fiascos already happened.

Lemme know what'cha think. Oh, I forgot the time, must go now, bye bye!

Gryff out.

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The One - Feb 22, 2005 1:31 am (#554 of 1858)

Open minded sceptic
The whole Viktor Krum affair I can easily see as an example of Ron's jealousy because Hermione managed to get the attention of his idol, when he (Ron) wasn't even able to get Krum's autograph until the end of term. Well, that's just how I see it, but sometimes, I also think that Ron indeed fancies Hermione.

Also note that Ron tried to invite the female Tri-Wizard Champion to the ball, and it was clearly demonstrated that such an atemp was aiming "to high", as JKR puts it. While Hermione did obtain one of the hottest dates available to the girls. Hermione is good enough for the stars, Ron is not. All in all, the Yule Ball was extremly humiliating to Ron, while Hermione emerged as the queen of the ball. And this is done to a boy that already has issues by being overshadowed by Harry and his own brothers.

There are signs in the books that Ron very well may fancy Hermione, but there is no need to assume he does to explain the Yule Brawl.

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frogface - Feb 22, 2005 5:01 am (#555 of 1858)

"If she really wanted to make sure Harry won't get hurt, she should've watched Snape" - Gryffindor Ghost.

I think you'll find that Hermoine didn't suspect Snape at this point, only Ron and Harry did. It wasn't until after the match that Hermoine started suspecting Snape.

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frogface - Feb 22, 2005 6:17 am (#556 of 1858)

I stand corrected. Sorry! And I thought I was being clever lol.

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Loopy Lupin - Feb 22, 2005 6:26 am (#557 of 1858)

As an example, I've yet to hear an argument as to what the Ron/Hermione angle would do for the greater plot, besides add an 'awwwwww' value to the stories (which I consider to be cheesy).

I might respond to this by pointing out that in a fantasy/adventure type story, the love interest angle rarely does much of anything for the "greater plot." Here, the greater plot is surely the ongoing and ultimate battle with Voldemort. Harry could get there and fight this battle with or without a steady girlfriend.

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Catherine - Feb 22, 2005 7:17 am (#558 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Wasn't there a post from a mod disallowing the terms Heron and Harmony? I cannot see it, it is deleted?

I see in my morning rush, I deleted my own post instead of what I intended. Is my face ever red...

My original post concerned itself with the terms "pumpkin pie," which comes from fanfic, not JKR, and therefore has no real place on the Lexicon Forum. The terms Heron and Harmony, while clever in their own way, are not the terms we have typically used here, and may be confusing to our members.

If there are further comments on this matter, please take it to email instead of posting to the thread.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 22, 2005 3:50 pm (#559 of 1858)

Edited by Denise P. Feb 22, 2005 3:44 pm
Hey, nice to have you back, Sir Tornado. I daresay our ship is quite full again, isn't it?

Oh, I'm sorry, frogface, if you've mistaken that match for the first one. I didn't specify which match it was because I assumed that nearly all members here knew what I'm talking about. There's also a snippet from the book, in which Hermione said something like, "So why did he just try and kill Harry?" in a shrill voice, when Hagrid defended Snape. This is another point for H/Hr by the way, and I'll grab the opportunity to discuss it.

We all know of course that before the match, Hermione didn't believe Harry and Ron that Snape was trying to steal the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone, but after her "allegedly" tred to kill Harry, she changed her mind and believed he was after the Stone. When they found out, however, that Snape was actually trying to save Harry, she again changed her mind, and from then on, she never suspected Snape again, and even defended him against Ron's suspicions, on the pretext of "Dumbledore trusts him, and if we can't trust Dumbledore, we can't trust anyone." My, my...I'm really starting to think that if ever Bellatrix saves Harry's life, Hermione'll trust her, too (but I don't think that'll happen, Bella saving Harry, I mean). The point here is that, even if Hermione doubts someone, once they've saved Harry's life, then she'll consider them trustworthy. After all, it seems that her primary purpose in life is to protect Harry, right?

What do you think?

Gryff out.

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Weeny Owl - Feb 22, 2005 4:41 pm (#560 of 1858)

After all, it seems that her primary purpose in life is to protect Harry, right?

Heavens, I certainly hope not!

Perhaps it's because I'm female, but I would hope that Hermione's primary purpose in life is herself. Not that I think she (or anyone, for that matter) should be selfish, but no one can live her life for her just as she cannot live anyone else's life, and making another person one's primary purpose just isn't right. Her first goal should be to be the best person she can be, and from that her feelings for her friends and family will shine through.

I don't think one person should be anyone's primary purpose in life, except for when couples have children. Even then the goal is to bring up children who can be independent and think for themselves.

Regardless of whether or not she ends up with Ron, Harry, someone else, or single for eternity, I would hate to think that such an accomplished, bright, caring person would make a guy her primary purpose in life.

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Denise P. - Feb 22, 2005 4:47 pm (#561 of 1858)

Ravenclaw Pony
I deleted a large number of posts from this thread today.

This Forum exists to discuss the ideas of our members, not to post an essay from another site in order to support the specific ideas of a member. Even though the author gave permission for this essay to be posted and is a member of the Lexicon Forum, it is not appropriate to have done so. By all means, discuss the ideas but don't cut and paste from other sites.

Any post that followed that referred to this essay may have been edited or deleted.

If a member finds an essay they think is noteworthy, by all means, post something such as "Hey, I read a really great essay over at X. Email me if you want a link to it!" rather than post it. Everyone here can find essays or information that supports their specific 'ship but that is not what this thread is for. Please keep that in mind.

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Eponine - Feb 22, 2005 5:24 pm (#562 of 1858)

Weeny Owl, I completely agree with your assessment. I find the argument that Hermione's purpose/goal/driving force in her life is Harry's happiness/well-being/safety to be rather sexist. I don't have any doubts that she does care for Harry's happiness/well-being/safety, but to make that the driving force behind everything she does just doesn't seem like the Hermione we know and love. Hermione is a strong, confident (most of the time), independent thinker; and I feel it would be a disservice to her to make her into a girl who does everything for her "man".

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TGF - Feb 22, 2005 6:10 pm (#563 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Hmmm Denise I think you deleted a post of mine that had nothing to do with the essay in your clean up... =(

Well, no way to get it back now, I guess... ah well. Here's a summary of it off the top of my head:

- Interesting interpretation of Ron's feelings towards Hermione on Gryff Ghost's part, but I am not all together persuaded, though perhaps he has a 'sister' complex towards her along side his romantic feelings.

- Luna has potential for Ron (and Harry), but being a relatively new character, we really need more screentime with her before any definite conclusions can be made. Ron, as someone who is naturally inclined to stand up for people that get picked on, might click well with her however.

- Ginny I feel is too emotionally immature to form a real relationship with anyone (Neville or Harry) and will likely keep up with what I believe Soli calls the 'revolving door relationships'

There, no harm done. You can all assume that backing each each of my points was tumultuous evidence, and my usual sweeping prose... honestly, you can! =P

I would like to weigh in with those who say that Hermione 'living' for Harry is a grossly sexist statement. Caring for someone is different then dedicating your life to someone... one indicates unselfishness, the other indicates subservience (and even obsession). The reason I like the idea of Hermione and Harry is that she's Harry's equal, and even in many respects his superior. It would be two strong characters bound together. I don't like the idea of Hermione being obsessive over or dedicating her life to Harry (or anyone for that matter) at all. T hat doesn't go with the grain of her character at all.

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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 22, 2005 6:21 pm (#564 of 1858)

I Am Almighty!
Why would Hermione give Harry relationship counsel about another girl if she herself likes him? Hm ... ever read Cyrano de Bergerac? Ever see Some Kind of Wonderful? I'm not saying that Hermione does care romantically for Harry. I'm just saying that offering him romantic help with Cho would not preclude it. Solitaire

Does seeing Roxanne count? Seriously, you, Choices, and everyone else who said something similar have a good point. Hermione probably would still have tried to help Harry with Cho even if she did like him. However, this would have been a perfect time for JKR to give us a hint of Hermione's true feelings, but she doesn't. Hermione added the bit about Harry thinking she was ugly as an afterthought, and laughed at him when he didn't understand what she meant.

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TomProffitt - Feb 22, 2005 6:36 pm (#565 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
The trio of PS/SS would be offended as individuals if 'ships were to be suggested to them (even in confidence) with another of the trio. The trio of the first book is not the trio of the fifth book. The characters are growing and developing. Ron certainly would have been unable to admit to himself (if it were true) that he fancied Hermione.

I think that when we talk about 'ships we have to think in terms of character growth over the series. Ron & Hermione seem to me to be moving towards each other while Harry remains the same distance from Hermione. That is why I am a R/Hr 'shipper, there is movement in that 'ship. Harry's 'shipping interests seem to move in relation to a number of female characters including Cho, Ginny, Luna, and Parvati, but not Hermione. We should not delete Myrtle from the list (even if I originally proposed it in jest, because there is more developing there than there is with Hermione).

Ron's relationship with Hermione is active and developing. The same can be said for her relationship with him.

Harry's relationship with Hermione is essentially unchanged since POA.

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Denise P. - Feb 22, 2005 7:49 pm (#566 of 1858)

Ravenclaw Pony
TGF, if I inadvertantly misread a post and cleared it with the rest, sorry! It was not intentional.

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Solitaire - Feb 22, 2005 8:02 pm (#567 of 1858)

Sorry, Tom, but I really don't think a Harry/Myrtle 'ship has the ghost of a chance!

Solitaire

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Betelgeuse Black - Feb 22, 2005 8:20 pm (#568 of 1858)

Ergh!!! Solitaire, that was the literary equivalent of a blast-ended skrewt.

I wish I were not English speaking so I wouldn't get it :-)

Betelgeuse

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Weeny Owl - Feb 22, 2005 11:10 pm (#569 of 1858)

Oh, Solitaire, good one!

I agree with your assessment, Tom, and while reading OotP over again, I did notice how much Harry dislikes Hermione's nagging while Ron shrugs it off. Harry seems to distance himself from her in OotP in many ways, and keeps things from her because he doesn't want to deal with that aspect of her personality.

Ron, on the other hand, can give as good as he gets, and Hermione needs someone who will debate with her and not hide his feelings when he gets uncomfortable.

I feel it would be a disservice to her to make her into a girl who does everything for her "man".

Excellent way of phrasing it, Eponine. I just can't see Hermione devoting her entire existence to one guy.

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narisa - Feb 23, 2005 12:57 am (#570 of 1858)

I think that the first book has no romance. They were only 11. When I was 11, I didn't even know what 'affair' mean, didn't finish primary school. And I also think that Hr doesn't show less interest when Harry does't on team. She never say much about Quidditch in any case. She reaction when Harry win is predictable. Like me, who always hate boxing, when my country win a gold, I still watch it and cheer. I bet eventhough she know no one on team, she would still cheer when her team win.

Yesterday, I saw something I never notice before. When Harry scar hurt in GoF and he was thinking about writing a letter, the first voice in his mind is Hr's reaction, and then Ron's. I found this very interesting.

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frogface - Feb 23, 2005 4:06 am (#571 of 1858)

I think that was because Hermione is naturally better at practical advice than Ron. I doubt it has anything to do with romantic feelings, if I was in his posistion I think I'd consider Hermoine first to.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 23, 2005 5:08 am (#572 of 1858)

Really!

Eponine and Weeny, I didn't say anything or conclude that Hermione pleads her life to Harry and is willing to do everything for him (though I believe she will do anything for Harry; Just take a look at their argument before Harry used Umbridge's fire to talk to Sirius; she said something like, "I'd d-do anything it takes just to save him "). I never said or insinuated that Hermione devotes her entire existence for Harry, for crying out loud! All I said is that, "It seems that Hermione's primary purpose in life is Harry's safety," and I never meant it literally that her entire existence is primarily is dedicated to ensure Harry's safety! All I meant is that, Hermione is very much concerned about Harry's safety that sometimes, she'll put all other things aside and ensure his safety first. After all, Harry's not just "any other guy," is he? He's one of Hermione's closest friends (if not her closest one, and I'm prepared to bet my life and my sanity that she considers him as such), and the potential saviour of the world from Lord Voldemort's evil plans. I'm not just talking about the "hero" factor here. Just look at what the poor guy had experienced, and Hermione is very well aware of them. She's the only person who understands him even more than Harry himself or Dumbledore does.

My question is this: Which HP girl can surpass Hermione in terms of: 1)closeness to Harry; 2)perceptiveness, sensitivity, and responsiveness to his moods and emotions; 3)importance to Harry; 4)being Harry's equal or superior in many aspects; 5)influence on Harry's emotional, physical, intellectual, and magical aspects; and 6)development as a character in relation to Harry throughout the books? Ginny? Luna? Cho? Parvati or Lavender? Susan or Hannah? Pansy? Moaning Myrtle? NONE, period.

On the other side, Which HP boy can surpass Harry in terms of: 1)importance in the series (None, of course. This is HIS story.); 2)being Hermione's equal or superior in many ways; 3)influence on Hermione; 3)perceptiveness, responsiveness, and sensitivity to Hermione's moods and emotions; 4)closeness to Hermione; and 5)development of relationship with Hermione? Ron? Viktor? Neville? Dean or Seamus? Any of the Weasley bros.? Ernie or Michael or Justin? Terry or Zacharias? Malfoy? Again, NONE, period.

I honestly don't recall a specific instance in the books where Ron backs off from an argument with Hermione. As for Harry reacting negatively to Hermione's nagging, well, he's only human, right? I didn't say that Harry always puts up with Hermione, nor will you ever hear me say it. But the idea of Ron shrugging off an argument with Hermione is laughable. He may steer the conversation away, or slide quietly into one side to avoid it, but he never (as far as I am aware) shrugged off an argument with Hermione.

Yes, excellent point, narisa. I kinda forgot about that one, too. When Harry imagined telling his best friends about his scar hurting, Hermione's voice immediately filled his head, but after that, he still had to imagine what Ron's reactions will be. His conscience was also Hermione's voice. As was his voice of reason. In fact, Harry has now grasped the fact that Hermione has quite become a part of himself, whether he likes it or not, and that's saying something (unless of course we're deaf and dumb enough not to hear or understand it).

Gryff out.

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The Artful Dodger - Feb 23, 2005 6:18 am (#573 of 1858)

On the other hand, the person he chooses to write to is Sirius. Add to that the fact that in OoP, when Harry casts his Patronus, he thinks of his two best friends, Ron and Hermione, and the fact that when he has the vision of Sirius in the Department of Mysteries, a voice inside his head tells him to go to his two best friends, Ron and Hermione, and you get what you get in most cases, an inconsistent picture. Which makes me treat any theory with caution.

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Weeny Owl - Feb 23, 2005 11:17 am (#574 of 1858)

As for perceptiveness, responsiveness, and sensitivity to feelings, Hermione is much better at those than Harry, but she nags him and he ignores her.

As for influence, ditto on most of it except for magic. Hermione does help Harry with magic, but she also helps Ron as well.

I just don't see these books the way you do. Everything you've mentioned I interpret in a different way.

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Choices - Feb 23, 2005 11:25 am (#575 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think one reason Harry doesn't like Hermione's "nagging" is that he knows she's right. He should be getting on with his homework, he should be figuring out the clues in the egg, or how to breathe underwater or how to get past the dragon, but he tends to procrastinate. He knows what he should be doing, but he wants to put it off and he doesn't want to hear anything that reminds him of his obligations. I know how Hermione feels - when you are very organized, people who aren't drive you mad, so she tried to nudge Harry in the right direction. She nudges Ron too.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 23, 2005 11:29 am (#576 of 1858)

He chooses to write to Sirius because he already imagined what Ron and Hermione's reactions would be, and he never dreamed that Sirius might go back to England if Harry wrote to him.

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Choices - Feb 23, 2005 11:34 am (#577 of 1858)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I figured he writes to Sirius because three heads are better than one - just ask Fluffy!! LOL No, actually I figured he just wanted a more mature, worldly-wise opinion to add to what he had gotten from Hermione and Ron. He likes having a godfather and wants to hear what he has to add.

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TGF - Feb 23, 2005 11:35 am (#578 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Well, nagging aside, Hermione is the only character besides Dumbledore that's been able to calm Harry down when he's in CAPS LOCK mode. It's not that Harry just tells her to shut up and goes and does what he wants... she very often gets through to him, and he listens.

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Sir Tornado - Feb 23, 2005 11:46 am (#579 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
I definately agree with Griffindor Ghost here.

I have heard, often, that Harry/Hermione isn't possible because Harry is irritated by Hermione's nagging. But, so is Ron. The only thing different is, that, while Harry retreats, Ron choses to retaliate, which causes bickering. Harry and Ron just have different personalities, that's it. It's not that because one has a crush on Hermione and other doesn't that their reactions differ.

And, assume for one second (only for a second!) that we do have R/Hr ship, what will it's impact on storyline be?

Firstly, there is bound to be a sort of negetive reaction from Harry. He expects his friends to tell him everything both of them know, and, in OotP has already shown his displeasure when Ron and Hermione spend half the summer together at GP12.

Secondly, JKR has more or less confirmed that Harry will be 'shipped with someone. Now, this is Harry's story. His ship has to be the main focus as compared to other ships. In case if R/Hr happens, this won't be the case. The focus will shift towards R/Hr rather than Harry's 'ship. This won't be good for the story, and will be inconsistant with the script so far.

Thirdly, Harry's love intrest will, undoubtedly become the most major female character in the story. However, till now, the only female character who is fully developed, is Hermione. She has been in development for 5 books now, atleast 3 ahead of her nearest competitor (Ginny, who has had character developing roles in CoS and OotP).

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Weeny Owl - Feb 23, 2005 1:09 pm (#580 of 1858)

Now, this is Harry's story. His ship has to be the main focus as compared to other ships. In case if R/Hr happens, this won't be the case. The focus will shift towards R/Hr rather than Harry's 'ship

I don't see why the focus would shift regardless of who ends up with whom.

JKR could very easily write something about Ron and Hermione dating, and have Harry grin and tell them that it was about time they got together. There wouldn't need to be much more than that.

I suppose I don't look at who is dating whom as being that important because I feel that it really isn't important at all. Harry will date someone. Ron will date someone. Big deal, really. The focus of the books, for me, anyway, is how Harry will defeat Voldemort, which side Snape is truly on, how delighted I'll be when Draco finally gets his comeuppance, and seeing Bella and the other Death Eaters being dealt with once and for all. Oh, and I'd love to see Umbridge in Azkaban.

Visualize the series as a restaurant that has one main dish that is incredible. I go to the restaurant for that particular dish, and if there's room left over, I might have a bit of dessert, although the dessert is irrelevant. I see the battle between Harry and Voldemort as the main dish, and the romances as the dessert... nice, if there's room, but basically unimportant.

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TomProffitt - Feb 23, 2005 1:47 pm (#581 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
"On the other side, Which HP boy can surpass Harry in terms of: 1)importance in the series (None, of course. This is HIS story.); 2)being Hermione's equal or superior in many ways; 3)influence on Hermione; 3)perceptiveness, responsiveness, and sensitivity to Hermione's moods and emotions; 4)closeness to Hermione; and 5)development of relationship with Hermione?" --- Gryffindor Ghost

To answer your questions I would say 1) none, obviously 2) Ron is Harry's equal or superior in many ways, except for DADA Harry & Ron are pretty much dead even 3) because they are a trio I don't think you can say Ron's influence is less than Harry's (it may be, but there is no way to demonstrate it) second 3) Ron far surpasses Harry here, Harry retreats from Hermione in many instances while Ron engages her, you seem to view the bickering as a negative, but ignoring Hermione when she offers her unsolicited advice is probably worse than arguing with her about it; also it is almost always Ron who notices things about Hermione first (e.g. the teeth repair); Hermione may be responsive to Harry's needs, but Harry ignores hers 4) again it cannot be demonstrated that Ron is less close to Hermione than Harry 5)I repeat Harry's relationship with Hermione has not changed since the fight over the Firebolt in PoA, while conversely we see a gradual change in the way Ron views his own relationship with Hermione at the very least.

But frankly, I even though I disagree on your points, I think they are all irrelevant. Having certain characteristics in a relationship with a person is not an indicator that a romantic relationship will develop. There has to be a certain je ne sais quoi, a certain spark, a certain something. Up to this point Harry's only seen one spark, Cho's. Until Harry sees another one we really can't know which way he wants to go, but I think we can be reasonably certain that while Hermione might be the best match for him, he's probably not the best match for her.

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Sir Tornado - Feb 23, 2005 1:48 pm (#582 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
Yes. The main story is important. However, Harry's ship, as JKR once said the Heart of it all.

Edit: The exact quote was: "The answer cuts to the heart of the series. I have not seen anyone guess this in all the sites I have visited."

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Steve Newton - Feb 23, 2005 2:01 pm (#583 of 1858)

Librarian
Sir Tornado, there is a quotation from JKR that is used to support this position. I can't remember what, or where, it is. Do you have it handy for a quick check? I believe in going right to the source...(Oh no! The 'Mr. Ed' theme has started going through my head. Make it stop!)

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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 23, 2005 2:41 pm (#584 of 1858)

I Am Almighty!
JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that?

JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.

That's the full quote; it's from a June 19, 2003 interview on BBC Newsnight.

If you take the "one thing" to be Harry's 'ship, which I don't, that pretty much rules out Harry/Hermione. I'm pretty sure the idea of a H/Hr 'ship was more than skirted by the time OotP came out.

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 23, 2005 2:51 pm (#585 of 1858)

Re: Harry/Myrtle

If we accept that the dead stay dead, there is only one way for this 'ship to happen, and we really don't want that. Nobody does; do they? (Unless Voldemort is available to date the Grey Lady, or something...)

It cannot be denied, on the other hand, that Harry is the only boy who has shown any real interest in Myrtle (besides mocking her) - even if he is only after information on both occasions (GoF and CoS), the fact that he pays her any respectful attention at all absolutely thrills her. Didn't she actually appear to him and offer help, rather than him coming to her, in GoF? She's got to have some sort of loyalty to him! And we KNOW that she will offer him lodgings alongside her if he is killed: "If you'd died, you'd have been welcome to share my toilet." (COS)

(An eternity with Moaning Myrtle: one good reason to stay alive, perhaps? On the other hand, she might be a whole lot less mopey if she had a companion like Harry.)

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Loopy Lupin - Feb 23, 2005 4:04 pm (#586 of 1858)

Edit: The exact quote was: "The answer cuts to the heart of the series. I have not seen anyone guess this in all the sites I have visited. -- Sir Tornado

As Vlad points out above, this is not the exact quote at all. As a matter of fact there is quite some debate about whether or not she is talking about a 'ship theme even. I personally think she is, but there is plainly room for interpretation.

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Catherine - Feb 23, 2005 5:46 pm (#587 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
I'm glad you said that, Loopy, because I think we are going to be surprised by an unlikely pairing of a decidely unromantic nature.

But I can see how this quote is open to debate, and it will be fun to see how it plays out.

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TomProffitt - Feb 23, 2005 6:53 pm (#588 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Yes, Jo has said repeatedly in other quotes than the one being discussed that romance is not central to the story. It is contained in the story because it is part of life. This collection of quotes implies that the pairing at the heart of the story is not a romantic pairing.

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Steve Newton - Feb 23, 2005 7:49 pm (#589 of 1858)

Librarian
Thanks for post the quotation Vlad. I tried search but couldn't come up with the right combination of key words.

It is ambiguous, as many of JKR's words are, but I don't think that the key part is speaking of a relationship.

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Weeny Owl - Feb 23, 2005 11:16 pm (#590 of 1858)

If you take the "one thing" to be Harry's 'ship, which I don't, that pretty much rules out Harry/Hermione. I'm pretty sure the idea of a H/Hr 'ship was more than skirted by the time OotP came out.

I agree with all who see the "one thing" not to be Harry's romantic possibilities, but if JKR is discussing Harry's romantic life, then she would know ad nauseum that people are discussing Harry and Hermione, so what you've said, Vlad, makes sense... it does rule out Harry and Hermione completely.

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Sir Tornado - Feb 24, 2005 1:56 am (#591 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.

That really depends. She said A couple of people have skirted it If you observe here, it is just me, Jarand, Gryffindor Ghost and TGF who are *skirting* H/Hr. When the comment was made by JKR, I seriously doubt if there were any H/Hr shippers around here!

Then again, even if a hundred people like an Idea, even then you can say that a couple of people liked it, because, of course, that isn't false. (Theoritically atleast, because, a couple of people did like it)

I made it confusing, I know, but, I hope you got the message.

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Tomoé - Feb 24, 2005 2:49 am (#592 of 1858)

Back in business
Oh my so many posts!

First, thanks for the quote, Vlad. (the "Harry, you're worse than Ron....Well, no, you're not," one)

Eponine -> How has the online HP community affected your shipping views?

I didn't care much for 'ships before I took part of the HP community.

Eponine -> Do you think that it has made you more or less open to certain pairings?

It have made me much more open to unlikely pairing, more keen to think outside the box when it comes to 'ship.

Eponine -> Did anything online change your mind about conclusions you had drawn from reading the books prior to coming online?

Before I read much stuff about ships, I was and Hr/R shipper, but the H/Hr shippers made me realise that while Ron is undoubtly interested, Hermione doesn't seem willing to try a romance with him. However, I didn't became a H/Hr shipper, we are in Harry's head and there's no romantic feelings for Hermione, he's annoyed when she become too bossy, she's more a surrogate mother or big sister to him than a potential girlfriend.

So the discussions over 'ships had made me switch from Hr/R to the "there will be no couple within the trio" group (is there such a group?), though I can't figure out who will be Harry or Ron's girl or Hermione's boy. My guesses are changing almost twice a month, and it don't risk to slow down before HbP. Will they even 'ship before the end of the series? We know Harry will get another kiss or two, but for Hermione and Ron ...

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Weeny Owl - Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am (#593 of 1858)

That really depends. She said A couple of people have skirted it If you observe here, it is just me, Jarand, Gryffindor Ghost and TGF who are *skirting* H/Hr. When the comment was made by JKR, I seriously doubt if there were any H/Hr shippers around here!

How many people on Mugglenet are for Harry and Hermione? How many on other Harry Potter websites? JKR visits more sites than just this one, and even spent some time at Mugglenet in their chat room.

The comment she made was with Jeremy Paxman on June 19, 2003, right before OotP went on sale. By that time, she had been asked about romantic pairings quite often.

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coolbeans3131 - Feb 24, 2005 5:13 am (#594 of 1858)

If Jo was talking about ships, then maybe she wasn't refering to which couple people had guessed, but the manner in which they get together and the inpact it has on the story.

I think that something will happen with the trios relationship that will impact the conclusion of the story. Harry doesn't have to have feelings for Hermione for this to happen. Think how Ron would feel to finally declare himself to Hermione, only to find out she's interested in Harry. I don't think he'd take it well. Who knows what he'd do.

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Loopy Lupin - Feb 24, 2005 9:48 am (#595 of 1858)

The comment she made was with Jeremy Paxman on June 19, 2003, right before OotP went on sale. By that time, she had been asked about romantic pairings quite often. -- Weeny Owl

Indeed. I'm not sure we understood you correctly, Sir Tornado because I'm quite positive that there have been H/Hr 'shippers from the word "go" or at least since October 1, 2002.

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Susan Potter - Feb 24, 2005 12:40 pm (#596 of 1858)

Yes. The main story is important. However, Harry's ship, as JKR once said the Heart of it all.

Edit: The exact quote was: "The answer cuts to the heart of the series. I have not seen anyone guess this in all the sites I have visited."

Susan... this quote gives me hope and scares me at the same time... It cancels out Hermione, and Ginny... both of who have been guessed... and leaves room for Susan Bones, which leaves me hopeful...

It's scary because I don't want to see Harry's Romance have anything to do with "the heart of it all" How cheesy is that? Whether its Susan, Hermione, Ginny, Luna, or Pansy... I hope JKR has a little more imagination then that

Susan...

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frogface - Feb 24, 2005 2:28 pm (#597 of 1858)

I think Susan has been mentioned to though. So has Hannah Abbot, I'm pretty sure just about all the girls in the series have been mentioned on here at least once. Which leads me to believe it could be Hermoine or Ginny, and its not the Ship that we're guessing wrong, but some other factor that ties in closely with the ship, if you get what I mean?

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 24, 2005 2:52 pm (#598 of 1858)

I am quite prepared to believe that the 'relationship at the heart of the series' is not necessarily a romantic one (indeed I would prefer it NOT to be romantic), even though love of some sort will be involved. Whether the H/Hr shippers are right or wrong, what exists between Harry and Hermione is not just your average normal friendship. It may not be romance, but to a certain extent there is love (Says he, who ships R/Hr anyway).

BUT as it looks like Harry is going to get at least a 'light and fluffy romance', it will be fun seeing who it is with. Come on, he's going to be sixteen; he deserves what any Muggle boy his age could reasonably expect. And Hannah is the lightest and fluffiest combat-experienced female DA member around...

(Yeah, okay, there's no rhyme or reason, but it's MY ship and I'll keep the wheel till I'm on the rocks or out in clear water!)

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Susan Potter - Feb 24, 2005 4:07 pm (#599 of 1858)

frogface: I think Susan has been mentioned to though. So has Hannah Abbot, I'm pretty sure just about all the girls in the series have been mentioned on here at least once. Which leads me to believe it could be Hermoine or Ginny, and its not the Ship that we're guessing wrong, but some other factor that ties in closely with the ship, if you get what I mean?

Susan: Well obviously a lot of ships have been mentioned... We've paired Harry up with a lot of girls, including manic depressive ghosts-g-... but Ginny and Hermione are the main ships that have Been "guessed" I Don't see Susan or Hannah as being "guessed" they have been talked about and considered but not really "guessed."

Muggle doctor: I am quite prepared to believe that the 'relationship at the heart of the series' is not necessarily a romantic one

susan: I agree to... thought I don't think it has NOTHING to do with Hermione (or friendship in general) I think it will be His mother Lily love... my opinion of course.

Muggle doctor: what exists between Harry and Hermione is not just your average normal friendship

Susan: I disagree... I do think Harry loves Hermione, like the same way He loves Ron... but I think saying it's "something more" romantic or other is an exaggeration of canon, their friendship in the fifth book is something to be desired, and have yet seen proof of Harry and Hermoine's friendship surpassing all others... I think the *TRIO* friendship is "something more" though... people seem to forget that Ron is part of the equation...

muggle doctor: Yeah, okay, there's no rhyme or reason, but it's MY ship and I'll keep the wheel till I'm on the rocks or out in clear water

susan: I hear what you're saying... Harry/Susan TILL THE DEATH!!!

susan

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 24, 2005 6:42 pm (#600 of 1858)

No: Harry/Hannah, till the end of book six. Then the ship to end them all.

Yes, I agree that Harry's emotional ties towards Hermione are similar to those that tie him to Ron (I was wary of saying "Harry's feelings for Ron" because although I mean the usual asexual male-male friendship with intense comrades-in-arms type "love" thrown in, you say "feelings" about two guys and people tend to think nasty thoughts and delete your posts). I just wanted to make it clear that even if the H/Hr shippers end up losing out, the arguments they have raised in their defence will have some validity vis a vis why Harry and Hermione stand by each other as they do.

(Harry 4 Hermione 4 EVA!!!!! however, does not constitute a well thought out argument, even if correct! :-p )

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 601 to 650)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:46 am

Joanne R. Reid - Feb 24, 2005 6:53 pm (#601 of 1858)
Muggle Doctor, I agree with you regarding the status of Harry and Hermione.

I had a really close friend, who died a couple of months ago. Everyone thought we were having a torrid affair. They were blown away when they saw him, his wife and me hanging around together. They thought that she didn't know about her husband and I. Even funnier, she used to call me his girl friend! Yet, there was nothing other than the closest of friendships between us.

Of course, we were adults. Harry, Ron, Hermione and the others are kids. Harry, Ron and Hermione have a powerful, close relationship. There is a ton of love among them. However, I don't think any of them are thinking romantically at this juncture.

Later, maybe. Right now, no. But, they will be sixteen. A lot can change in a year.

Thanks,

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 25, 2005 12:10 am (#602 of 1858)

Wow, I'm really overwhelmed at the number of posts since I posted last.

Okay, so I wrote this really long post but the darn internet connection was cut off, and all of it was lost! Grrr! I was really angry because I spent so much time on that post (and money, too, since I'm just using a public computer). I really wanted to strangle the owner of the internet cafe (or more likely, the owner of the ISP), but I restrained myself (and also because he's bigger than me). So here goes, I'll try again.... (I'm still really pissed off, since I had very good points on that one.)

No, I don't think I can replicate that post. At least not in my current state.

Yes, Joanne, they're still kids, but many things can happen in the next two books (and two years). It is my impression that somehow, Harry and Hermione already feel something for each other, but they haven't realized it yet (though I am inclined to think that Hermione already realized since she's smarter and less daft than Harry). Harry, or his part, is still of course full of remorse and grief at what happened to Sirius, but as he recovers, I think he'll also remember how he nearly lost Hermione during the battle at the Department of Mysteries. I really wanted to discuss how differently Harry reacted to injuries and near-death experiences of his friends, but I'm out of time. Till next post then, everyone.

Gryff out.

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frogface - Feb 25, 2005 2:26 am (#603 of 1858)

The moment where Harry panics in the Minestry of Magic is a good example, however if we compare it to Harry's reaction much much earlier in the book when he see's Mrs Weasley's Boggart, we see a very similar reaction. OoP Bloomsbury hardback UK edition page 159.

"All the air seemed to vanish from Harry's lungs; he felt as though he were falling through the floor; his brain turned icy cold - Ron was dead, no, it couldn't be -" At that point he realises of course that Ron isn't actually dead and its a boggart, and so maybe the reaction doesn't seem as powerful. However it looks to me as though if Harry had had as long to believe Ron maybe dead as he did with Hermoine, his reaction would have been just as powerful. But you could probably argue differently.

xxxkieranxxx

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 25, 2005 8:46 am (#604 of 1858)

Yes, but you realize that Harry's senses caught up with his horror when he saw Ron's (apparently) dead body. He immediately realized that Ron couldn't be dead because he was downstairs. We also didn't see what's going on in Harry's mind; just that "his brain turned icy cold."

When he saw Hermione attacked, however, "a whine of panic inside his head was keeping him from thinking properly," and it was Neville who had the presence of mind to check for a pulse. And then, when Neville reassured him that Hermione was alive, "such a powerful wave of relief swept through him, making him feel light-headed." Light-headed means on the verge of fainting. Dear me, he was really affected by it, wasn't he? When he saw Ron, Ginny, and Luna injured later, he didn't react in quite the same way, did he? You might argue that their injuries were not as serious as Hermione's, but still, Harry saw Ginny and Luna attacked later, and he didn't react that strongly! He saw Ginny when she was Stunned (right in the face), and he also saw Luna flying across the Brain Room, slide along a table, and remain immobile, but Harry never reacted the same way he reacted when Hermione was attacked. There's a difference.

Gryff out.

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Ladybug220 - Feb 25, 2005 9:41 am (#605 of 1858)

...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Gryff Ghost, I read that differently than you. When he saw Ron's 'body', there was no other real stress around - i.e. they were not in battle and he didn't see an attack. When he actually sees Hermione attacked (even though no sound was heard), that was in battle and it was a battle caused by Harry's misjudgement - Harry not only witnessed the attack but also was an indirect cause of it so there is guilt there as well. And of course he is relievedto hear that there is a pulse after that.

I have to say that I do see it as a R/Hr ship. I would like H/G but he really could end up anyone but I don't see him with Hermione at all (especially as he retreats from her in OOP).

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Susan Potter - Feb 25, 2005 4:11 pm (#606 of 1858)

Muggle Doctor: No: Harry/Hannah, till the end of book six. Then the ship to end them all.

Susan: No: Harry/Susan to end them all… I don’t see Harry going from ship to ship… what would be the point? And Harry just doesn’t seem to be the type to do that… I think the next girl is the girl we are stuck with.

Gryiffindor Ghost: Dear me, he was really affected by it, wasn't he?

Susan: No... not really.... compared to his reaction to Mr. Weasley being attacked... He vomited!!!... and His Must-save-sirus-and-will-not-listen-to-reason... when he thought Voldemort had Sirus I don't see his reaction to Hermione any "more"... I can see how your H/Hr bias can interpret Harry being upset "the most" when Hermione is Hurt... but I don't see it being any different or extravagant then when all his other loved ones got hurt... so if JKR author intent was to show us that Harry has "unknown" feelings for her she did a poor job of it...

I think JKR's Arthur intent was to get hermione out of the way so Harry could go on to face Voldimort (well, watch as Dumbledore faces Voldemort) Hay! new question... if Hermione is "the one" why is she always prevented from going on with Harry? What is the point of keeping H/Hr secrete until the last two books? What’s the point (ok more then one question) and to throw us off ... you forget that throughout OotP JRK made it like a lot of people were on the verge of death...Mr. Weasley, Hagrid, Ron n’ family, and Hermione... so when Sirius actually did die it was more of a shock...if that makes sense.

Susan... who tends to get really, really, really skeptical when people do the "Harry loves her, he just doesn't know it yet" argument... you mind as well say "I'm reaching for straws"...if Harry likes a girl we would know it...

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Solitaire - Feb 26, 2005 1:32 am (#607 of 1858)

Interesting, isn't it, that "poor, bumbling Neville" is the one with the presence of mind to check Hermione for a pulse? It has nothing to do with 'shipping ... I just found it interesting that Neville--usually not given much credit as a capable Wizard--seemed to keep his cool here and elsewhere in the Ministry, despite the fact that he was injured, hit with both Crucio! and Tarantallegra! and no doubt scared out of his wits.

Solitaire

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sir nicholas - Feb 26, 2005 8:13 am (#608 of 1858)

Hi, everyone! I'm back after, what, two weeks? Yep, that sounds about right. I just got caught up in a maelstrom of work and exams, but now, I managed to finally visit the Forum again.

Well, I most certainly agree with Gryffindor Ghost (isn't it obvious? We're on the same ship!). Excellent point as well, Solitaire. Of all people, it had to be Neville.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 26, 2005 9:08 am (#609 of 1858)

Edited by Catherine Feb 26, 2005 10:41 am
Well, it's just a matter of differences in opinion, Ladybug. I didn't say that there was no guilt involved, I'm merely pointing out that Harry reacted so differently, given the situations. True, when he saw Ron's body, he wasn't in a tight situation, but I am merely pointing out to frogface that Harry's reaction in both cases (Ron and Hermione) was completely different. You also didn't address the fact that Harry didn't react that strongly when he saw Ginny and Luna injured later, Ladybug.

Susan, when Harry witnessed the attack on Mr. Weasley, he vomited because that attack was far more brutal than what happened to Hermione.

Moving on, I think you're mistaken in your perception of H/Hr's argument before Harry and Co. came to the MoM, Susan. Harry's "reaction," as you call it, is absolutely there. You might notice that even in his haste, anger, frustration, exasperation, fear, and everything else, he still listens to Hermione, and recognizes her intention to enter Umbridge's office with him as a sign of solidarity and loyalty. JKR may very well be showing us what's in store, but I'm afraid some of us hasn't figured it out yet (and she's certainly not saying, as it will ruin all the arguments, which she enjoys).

What's the point of keeping H/Hr secret until the last two books? It's a simple matter called "character development," and I'll leave it at that. Hermione was put out of action early in the DoM battle because the plot calls for it (and its reasons are far more deep than what meets the eye, I believe).

"If Harry likes a girl we would know it" - Susan Potter.

Yes, Harry likes a girl, and some of us know it. (Again, read what JKR has to say on the matter.) Oh, I know she's talking about Hermione, and you're talking about Harry, but all the same, there are clues in the books that point to H==>Hr as much as there are clues that point to Hr==>H. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, and excellent point, Solitaire. Well, it was Neville who had the presence of mind to do it, because Harry was far too distressed to think (his mind was full of that "whine of panic," and incidentally, it was "keeping him from thinking properly"). But we must've noticed that Harry didn't panic when Ginny was Stunned straight in the face, or when he sae Luna flying across the room (and she's not a Kacky Snorgle, as Ron puts it, nor a thestral. It just means she was attacked so fiercely that she flew across the room), slid along a table, and moved no more. Just think about it, their injuries were almost as serious as Hermione's, yet Harry didn't react in quite the same way. Think about it carefully.

Gryff out.

I deleted a comment in this post that I believed to be disruptive to this thread. You may email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] if you have any questions about it.--Catherine A.

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Phoenix song - Feb 26, 2005 9:27 am (#610 of 1858)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Edited by Catherine Feb 26, 2005 9:52 am
I know that Jo loves the debates about the 'ships. I'm hoping that she will have mercy upon all of us poor readers and give us more definite hints about "which way the wind blows" with regards to relationships between the main characters. I personally do not see Harry ending up with Hermione, though I know that he loves her dearly as a friend. I personally see them as being too much like siblings to ever get beyond that point. As I've said, however, that's just MY personal opinion, subject to error and contamination from personal wishes.

Barbie

I deleted a reference to another member's post, which has been edited, and made the reference obsolete. Feel free to email me with any questions or concerns .--Catherine

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Ladybug220 - Feb 26, 2005 10:16 am (#611 of 1858)

...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
Gryf Ghost, you are right, I didn't address Ginny and Luna. I didn't think it was important and I didn't know that I had to refute, every point that you had in order to express my opinion. I do realized that everyone reads it differently. If you see H/Hr ship, then that is fine - every one is entitled to their opinion. However, I see a R/Hr ship but until JKR finishes the series (I wish it could go on forever) we will have to wait to see "which way the wind blows".

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TomProffitt - Feb 26, 2005 1:24 pm (#612 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Just a thought:

The Hermione voice in Harry's head seems to me to be the voice of guilt. Now that's a really bad association for a potential girl friend.

Relationships based upon guilt tend to be bad ones.

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Betelgeuse Black - Feb 26, 2005 3:51 pm (#613 of 1858)

Gryffindor Ghost,

I feel like I must correct the comments about Harry throwing up when seeing Mr. Weasley attacked. He was in great pain from the scar.

OotP, page 463, US edition:

“His forehead hurt terribly.... It was aching fit to burst.... ‘Harry! HARRY!’ He opened his eyes. Every inch of his body was covered in icy sweat; his bedcovers were twisted all around him like a straitjacket; he felt as though a white-hot poker was being applied to his forehead. ‘Harry!’ Ron was standing over him looking extremely frightened. There were more figures at the foot of Harry’s bed. He clutched his head in his hands; the pain was blinding him.... He rolled right over and vomited over the edge of the mattress.”

I believe the situation that Harry is in has everything to do with his reaction. He didn't react so much with Ron because he was "safe" and he quickly realized that Ron was not dead. He reacted intensely with Hermione because he was pumped up on adrenaline and felt like it was all his fault that she got hurt. I don't think he reacted much to Luna and Ginny because by that time, he was very focussed on trying to get the Death Eaters away from them as a last resort to keep them alive.

That's my opinion, for what it's worth. Betelgeuse

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The Artful Dodger - Feb 26, 2005 4:08 pm (#614 of 1858)

And let's not forget that Luna may have flown across the room, and Ginny may have been stunned rigth in the face, but both of them weren't knocked out unconscious, and therefore not nearly as close to death as Hermione was.

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Catherine - Feb 26, 2005 4:15 pm (#615 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
I'm confused, Artful Dodger. How were Ginny and Luna not knocked unconscious?

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Weeny Owl - Feb 26, 2005 9:24 pm (#616 of 1858)

The Hermione voice in Harry's head seems to me to be the voice of guilt. Now that's a really bad association for a potential girl friend.

Relationships based upon guilt tend to be bad ones.

That's a very good point, Tom, and there is quite a bit of guilt associated with Hermione.

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Solitaire - Feb 27, 2005 12:31 am (#617 of 1858)

Guilt or common sense? Hermione is a big one for common sense ... except perhaps where the House-elves are concerned.

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The Artful Dodger - Feb 27, 2005 2:07 am (#618 of 1858)

Ooops, a serious case of biased reading, I guess (really should have checked before I posted). Yes, both Luna and Ginny were unconscious.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 27, 2005 4:11 am (#619 of 1858)

Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 27, 2005 9:29 am
Yeah, excellent point Catherine. Luna and Ginny were definitely knocked unconscious, so my argument still stands.

Now, regarding the whole "guilt" thing, I don't believe that what Harry feels everytime he hears Hermiones voice in his head is guilt. You see, Dictionary.com defines that term as follows:

guilt n.

The fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense.

Law. Culpability for a crime or lesser breach of regulations that carries a legal penalty.

Remorseful awareness of having done something wrong.

Self-reproach for supposed inadequacy or wrongdoing.

Guilty conduct; sin.

I don't think Hermione's voice telling Harry what's right and what's wrong, and what would be the right thing to do is considered as guilt. I'm afraid that's another serious case of "biased reading," Tom, as The Artful Dodger puts it. Hermione's voice speaking in Harry's mind is NOT, repeat NOT guilt, but conscience. That is defined by Dictionary.com as:

con•science (knshns) n.

The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong: Let your conscience be your guide.

A source of moral or ethical judgment or pronouncement: a document that serves as the nation's conscience.

Conformity to one's own sense of right conduct: a person of unflagging conscience.

The part of the superego in psychoanalysis that judges the ethical nature of one's actions and thoughts and then transmits such determinations to the ego for consideration.

Isn't it a good sign that Hermione has quite become Harry's conscience, and that Harry more often than not follows his Hermione-voiced conscience?

The only times I have seen Harry as "guilty" or else feeling guilt were when he lied to Hermione about some things he should have done (as she constantly reminds him) or he should have said. And the only reason why Harry was guilty because he knew Hermione was right, and that she only nags him for his own good. I think there's nothing wrong with that, is there? Moreover, I would just like to point out that Harry is not yet seeing her as a potential girlfriend, so what Tom said about "pretty bad association for a potential girlfriend doesn't apply.

Anyway, excellent point too, Betelgeuse. I stand corrected. However, very focused though Harry was in "trying to get the Death Eaters away from his friends," don't you think JKR could've easily inserted something like, "GINNY!" or "LUNA!" to Harry's talk bubble (or at least in his thought bubble) and not ruin the flow of the narrative? Yes, she could've done so. But the thing is, she didn't. After all, Harry and the rest (plus the DEs) paused for a moment in spite of themselves to watch the brains attack Ron, didn't they?

Think about it carefully, guys, okay?

Gryff out.

->We don't need to spell things out for each other; we're all mature enough to get each other's points without being reminded of spelling. Some may find it very insulting.<- S.E. Jones

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Weeny Owl - Feb 27, 2005 5:03 am (#620 of 1858)

Moreover, I would just like to point out that Harry is not yet seeing her as a potential girlfriend, so what Tom said about "pretty bad association for a potential girlfriend doesn't apply.

That is one of Marcus's arguments regarding Pansy.

If Harry isn't seeing Hermione as a girlfriend yet, then nothing in the first five books applies to a relationship between them.

As for the guilt, the examples you gave are more than enough to support Tom's theory.

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TomProffitt - Feb 27, 2005 5:32 am (#621 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
GG, when I say that Hermione's voice seems to represent guilt to me what I mean is, when Harry's conscience is bothering him about some thing he ought to be doing it speaks to him in Hermione's voice. To my mind feeling bad because you aren't doing what you ought to be doing is guilt. So, while that voice may not be directly guilt, Harry will directly associate it with guilt. This is a subconscious feeling Harry associates with Hermione. What this further implies to me is that Harry doesn't have similar negative associations with some characters (such as Parvati, Lavender, Pansy, Ginny, & Luna) and would therefore be more likely to consider a relationship with one of them.

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Catherine - Feb 27, 2005 6:56 am (#622 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Whether or not we all agree on the meaning of Hermione's voice inside Harry's head (guilt vs. conscience), I do think that Harry's feelings in the MoM, when he sees Hermione injured by Dolohov's spell, are guilt.

He thinks to himself, "Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead...." (p. 793, OoP, Scholastic)

I tend to think of Hermione's voice in Harry's head as the voice of reason, versus conscience or guilt.

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The Artful Dodger - Feb 27, 2005 7:08 am (#623 of 1858)

I suggest "guilty conscience" to resolve the disagreement, that's what my impression of Hermione's voice inside Harry's mind was and is, anyway. And I don't think that's a bad sign for a romance. Only a person that means a lot to you, in the positive sense, can give you a guilty conscience. In the context of 'ships, this bit means everything or nothing at all, depending on what 'ship we see in the end, of course (yeah, I know, that's a pretty lame statement, but, as I said before, I'm rather cautious).

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S.E. Jones - Feb 27, 2005 10:25 am (#624 of 1858)

Let it snow!
We once had a discussion about how the Trio sort of represented Freud's 3 stages of the unconscious mind (please no Freudian discussions, though). I think the conclusion was that Harry was the Ego (the one who has to make the choice of what to say and deal with the real world), Ron was the Id (i.e. he generally says what Harry is thinking and would like to say), and Hermione was the Superego (i.e. she generally says what Harry should say or should be thinking). We also equivalated the two to the "angel and devil" on Harry's shoulders. Anyway, my point is this sort of thing is open to all sorts of interpretations.

"The answer cuts to the heart of the series. I have not seen anyone guess this in all the sites I have visited."

I wonder if this wasn't a slight play on words. We were more or less told that Love was locked in the DoM and that it was what separated Harry and Voldemort. I'm thinking that "heart of the series" refers to Harry's ability to love in any fashion, whether romantic or platonic. So, in that sense, she says few have yet guessed who Harry's going to fall for and his ability to love is important. With that, I have to agree with Muggle Doctor:

I am quite prepared to believe that the 'relationship at the heart of the series' is not necessarily a romantic one (indeed I would prefer it NOT to be romantic), even though love of some sort will be involved. Whether the H/Hr shippers are right or wrong, what exists between Harry and Hermione is not just your average normal friendship. It may not be romance, but to a certain extent there is love (Says he, who ships R/Hr anyway).

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Sir Tornado - Feb 27, 2005 9:48 pm (#625 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
S.E Jones ( S.E. Jones, "'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships)" #624, 27 Feb 2005 9:25 am ) said:

I am quite prepared to believe that the 'relationship at the heart of the series' is not necessarily a romantic one (indeed I would prefer it NOT to be romantic), even though love of some sort will be involved. Whether the H/Hr shippers are right or wrong, what exists between Harry and Hermione is not just your average normal friendship. It may not be romance, but to a certain extent there is love (Says he, who ships R/Hr anyway)

Actually, I think I agree with you there , S.E Jones. Many R/Hr shippers do claim that it is just friendship and nothing else that exists between Harry and Hermione, but, if it is just a friendship, it is unusually strong one.

There is something else that I noticed in my re15reading of OotP last night. Already in the series, we see several instances where Ron and Hermione are into something together while Harry isn't with them. We first see this in PoA. They go to Hogsmeade together, while Harry isn't with them. We see this again in OotP, when both of them are in GP12, while Harry is stuck at PD5 (Harry thinks that both of them are at Burrow) Also, later in the book, both of them become prefects while Harry doesn't. There is one thing common in all these incidents: Harry isn't a happy boy. He is sad in PoA when everyone goes to Hogsmeade, he is angry in OotP when he is stuck at Dursleys while "Ron and Hermione are having 'fun' at the burrow" From this, it is safe to conclude that Harry won't be happy if we do have a R/Hr ship.

Many R/Hr shippers claim that Ron would be devastated if H/Hr ship sails. But, how can they ignore Harry's feelings which will get hurt in case Ron and Hermione get together?

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S.E. Jones - Feb 27, 2005 10:27 pm (#626 of 1858)

Let it snow!
Actually, if you look closer, I was quoting Muggle Doctor.....

(I use red for quoting other members.)

Also, you can only assume that Harry's feelings would be hurt if he has romantic feelings towards Hermione, which is what those R/Hr 'shippers assume is true of Ron in regards to his feelings for Hermione. If Harry feels only fraternal love for either of them, then he may be hurt in the sense that he is excluded just a step more from them, but also very happy for them as well, as any good friend who suddenly becomes a third wheel (though, I'm sure they wouldn't intend him to feel that way) may feel.

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Sir Tornado - Feb 27, 2005 11:35 pm (#627 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
S.E. Jones, "'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships)" #626, 27 Feb 2005 9:27 pm

Actually, if you look closer, I was quoting Muggle Doctor.....

(I use red for quoting other members.)

Oops, sorry about that!

Also, you can only assume that Harry's feelings would be hurt if he has romantic feelings towards Hermione, which is what those R/Hr 'shippers assume is true of Ron in regards to his feelings for Hermione. If Harry feels only fraternal love for either of them, then he may be hurt in the sense that he is excluded just a step more from them, but also very happy for them as well, as any good friend who suddenly becomes a third wheel (though, I'm sure they wouldn't intend him to feel that way) may feel.

Yes. But, even if he doesn't have romantic feelings, he has been hurt before. If there is a R/Hr ship, then, he will get hurt. No matter what his feelings are... the last thing we need is a depressed Harry...

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Weeny Owl - Feb 27, 2005 11:44 pm (#628 of 1858)

If there is a R/Hr ship, then, he will get hurt. No matter what his feelings are... the last thing we need is a depressed Harry...

Not necessarily. He could be very happy for both of them, especially if he's in the middle of a romance himself. They could double date, plan outings, and all sorts of other stuff two couples do together.

Also, if Ron and Hermione are dating, that doesn't mean Harry would be excluded from each and every single thing they do from then on. After all, Sirius was still James's best friend even while James was dating Lily, and I'm not saying Sirius had romantic feelings for her... just that friends can be friends regardless of romantic relationships. No exclusion is really necessary for the most part.

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Sir Tornado - Feb 27, 2005 11:54 pm (#629 of 1858)

Rebel without a cause.
Weeny Owl, "'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships)" #628, 27 Feb 2005 10:44 pm

Not necessarily. He could be very happy for both of them, especially if he's in the middle of a romance himself. They could double date, plan outings, and all sorts of other stuff two couples do together.

Oh dear... I am not sure whether I want to see all that in HP books... nor do I think JKR will write anything like that...

Also, if Ron and Hermione are dating, that doesn't mean Harry would be excluded from each and every single thing they do from then on. After all, Sirius was still James's best friend even while James was dating Lily, and I'm not saying Sirius had romantic feelings for her... just that friends can be friends regardless of romantic relationships. No exclusion is really necessary for the most part.

Exactly the same thing could happen if H/Hr sails. Ron doesn't have to get upset.

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Solitaire - Feb 28, 2005 12:15 am (#630 of 1858)

Also, if Ron and Hermione are dating, that doesn't mean Harry would be excluded from each and every single thing they do from then on. ... friends can be friends regardless of romantic relationships. No exclusion is really necessary for the most part.

I agree. As a singleton, I've often gone places with couple friends. Fortunately, they enjoy my company enough to ask me.

Also, just because Harry was upset that Ron and Hermione were together does not mean he is jealous of a romantic relationship. He was stuck in Dursley prison, fantasizing about all of the fun they were having--probably including Ginny and the twins--without him. He would have been just as jealous imagining Neville having fun with the Weasley kids. It's the fact that HE was not able to be a part of things that irritated him. JM2K on the subject ...

Solitaire

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Weeny Owl - Feb 28, 2005 1:20 am (#631 of 1858)

Oh dear... I am not sure whether I want to see all that in HP books... nor do I think JKR will write anything like that...

Whether or not she writes it is irrelevant. It's merely one explanation as to why Ron and Hermione dating doesn't have to have such a huge impact on Harry. Even if she did write it, it wouldn't have to be pages and pages... a short line or two would suffice.

If Harry is in the middle of a romance himself, he isn't going to care much if Ron and Hermione are also together.

As a singleton, I've often gone places with couple friends. Fortunately, they enjoy my company enough to ask me.

I've done that myself, Solitaire. Especially in high school when couples would hang out with single friends. Whether or not I was dating someone, my friends were still my friends, and frequently we'd all go do something together... just three of us. JKR isn't all that much younger than I am, and while she's British, I can't imagine dating and friendships are too terribly different there.

Also, just because Harry was upset that Ron and Hermione were together does not mean he is jealous of a romantic relationship. He was stuck in Dursley prison, fantasizing about all of the fun they were having--probably including Ginny and the twins--without him. He would have been just as jealous imagining Neville having fun with the Weasley kids. It's the fact that HE was not able to be a part of things that irritated him. JM2K on the subject ...

I see it that way as well, Solitaire. Harry was anxiously awaiting information on Voldemort but getting nowhere. No one would answer his questions or tell him anything except that they couldn't tell him anything. He was incredibly frustrated, jealous of all the neat things to do at The Burrow (not realizing Ron and Hermione weren't at The Burrow), and wondering when he would be included.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 28, 2005 5:20 am (#632 of 1858)

Fair point, guys. That's all I'm saying.

Weeny Owl:

That is one of Marcus's arguments regarding Pansy.

If Harry isn't seeing Hermione as a girlfriend yet, then nothing in the first five books applies to a relationship between them.

As for the guilt, the examples you gave are more than enough to support Tom's theory.


I disagree. Even if Harry doesn't yet see Hermione as a future girlfriend, the clues and hints laid down by JKR in the first five books are not out of the question because something that goes unnoticed doesn't automatically become nonexistent. While Harry doesn't relize it yet, the connection between him and Hermione is already there (whether we see it or not, whether we accept it or not).

TomProfitt:

GG, when I say that Hermione's voice seems to represent guilt to me what I mean is, when Harry's conscience is bothering him about some thing he ought to be doing it speaks to him in Hermione's voice. To my mind feeling bad because you aren't doing what you ought to be doing is guilt. So, while that voice may not be directly guilt, Harry will directly associate it with guilt. This is a subconscious feeling Harry associates with Hermione. What this further implies to me is that Harry doesn't have similar negative associations with some characters (such as Parvati, Lavender, Pansy, Ginny, & Luna) and would therefore be more likely to consider a relationship with one of them.


Tom, I didn't say Harry hasn't felt any guilty feeling whenever he did something (or did not do something) and he hears Hermione's voice. I don't quite agree with you that Harry associates guilt with Hermione, as many of the instances when Hermione's voice had spoken were not for berating him for something he did (or did not do).

Catherine:

I tend to think of Hermione's voice in Harry's head as the voice of reason, versus conscience or guilt.


I quite agree with Catherine here. However, it's not only the voice of reason, but also conscience (because sometimes, we feel guilty when we are bothered by our conscience). But all the same, I find it rather interesting that Hermione has quite become Harry's voice of reason and conscience. I only see it as a good sign, and not as a hindrance to H/Hr, like what The Artful Dodger said:

The Artful Dodger

I suggest "guilty conscience" to resolve the disagreement, that's what my impression of Hermione's voice inside Harry's mind was and is, anyway. And I don't think that's a bad sign for a romance. Only a person that means a lot to you, in the positive sense, can give you a guilty conscience. In the context of 'ships, this bit means everything or nothing at all, depending on what 'ship we see in the end, of course (yeah, I know, that's a pretty lame statement, but, as I said before, I'm rather cautious).


S.E. Jones:

We once had a discussion about how the Trio sort of represented Freud's 3 stages of the unconscious mind (please no Freudian discussions, though). I think the conclusion was that Harry was the Ego (the one who has to make the choice of what to say and deal with the real world), Ron was the Id (i.e. he generally says what Harry is thinking and would like to say), and Hermione was the Superego (i.e. she generally says what Harry should say or should be thinking). We also equivalated the two to the "angel and devil" on Harry's shoulders. Anyway, my point is this sort of thing is open to all sorts of interpretations.

The answer cuts to the heart of the series. I have not seen anyone guess this in all the sites I have visited."

I wonder if this wasn't a slight play on words. We were more or less told that Love was locked in the DoM and that it was what separated Harry and Voldemort. I'm thinking that "heart of the series" refers to Harry's ability to love in any fashion, whether romantic or platonic. So, in that sense, she says few have yet guessed who Harry's going to fall for and his ability to love is important. With that, I have to agree with Muggle Doctor:

I am quite prepared to believe that the 'relationship at the heart of the series' is not necessarily a romantic one (indeed I would prefer it NOT to be romantic), even though love of some sort will be involved. Whether the H/Hr shippers are right or wrong, what exists between Harry and Hermione is not just your average normal friendship. It may not be romance, but to a certain extent there is love (Says he, who ships R/Hr anyway).


Yes, interesting point, S.E. Jones. I also agree with Muggle Doctor on that. At this point, H/Hr's relationship may not be romance yet, but no one can deny (except perhaps those who can't or don't read Harry Potter books) that Harry and Hermione's relationship has developed much farher than any other relationship in the series (except perhaps Harry and Dumbledore's, as they are now on shouting terms, he he he!).

Weeny Owl:

Not necessarily. He could be very happy for both of them, especially if he's in the middle of a romance himself. They could double date, plan outings, and all sorts of other stuff two couples do together.

Also, if Ron and Hermione are dating, that doesn't mean Harry would be excluded from each and every single thing they do from then on. After all, Sirius was still James's best friend even while James was dating Lily, and I'm not saying Sirius had romantic feelings for her... just that friends can be friends regardless of romantic relationships. No exclusion is really necessary for the most part.


I disagree, Weeny. What if Harry happens to be NOT in a romance? I also think that your analogy of the relationship of HRH and JLS isn't applicable. For one, Lily hasn't been the Marauders' friend until she and James started dating. For another, Sirius and Lily aren't as close to each other as Harry and Hermione are. If R/Hr does happen (which I honestly think won't), I firmly believe Harry will be one lonely guy (or livid, more like).

As for Harry will also be just as jealous if Neville was having un with the Weasleys, I don't think so. What about that ALLCAPSLOCK! mode of Harry's, eh? Something like, "YOU'VE STILL BEEN TOGETHER, HAVEN'T YOU? ME, I'VE BEEN STUCK IN PRIVET DRIVE and blah blah blah... Is that just something coming from someone who's jealous because his friends were having fun somewhere without him? No! It's something coming from someone whose friends have been TOGETHER for some time, without him. You notice Harry just swept aside the explanation that Ron and Hermione weren't allowed to attend the meetings, or that they've been busy cleaning up the place? What really eats him is the fact that Hermione and Ron were TOGETHER. Now, what can you make out of that, eh?

Gryff out.

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Weeny Owl - Feb 28, 2005 5:33 am (#633 of 1858)

ME, I'VE BEEN STUCK IN PRIVET DRIVE

To me, that is the defining statement.

No, I don't see Harry being angry if Ron and Hermione are together. For one reason, he has much more important things to deal with than his friends' relationships, and for another, I still see nothing that shows he cares for Hermione as anything more than a friend.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 28, 2005 5:36 am (#634 of 1858)

Edited by Catherine Feb 28, 2005 4:52 am
Nope, not the defining moment. I consider the one before it as the defining moment.

I deleted a comment that I believed did not follow Forum guidelines.--Catherine:

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Catherine - Feb 28, 2005 5:49 am (#635 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Lily hasn't been the Marauders' friend until she and James started dating. For another, Sirius and Lily aren't as close to each other as Harry and Hermione are.--Gryffindor Ghost

We don’t know this. Lily and Lupin were both prefects their fifth year; it is possible that they were friends. We also have no evidence to confirm or deny that Sirius and Lily were less close than Harry and Hermione.

While Harry doesn't realize it yet, the connection between him and Hermione is already there (whether we see it or not, whether we accept it or not). --Gryffindor Ghost

Of course there is a connection. She is acknowledged as one of his best friends, and she is very loyal. Harry has admitted this connection. He admits that they are friends. He denies to both Krum and Mrs. Weasley that Hermione is his girlfriend.

What really eats him is the fact that Hermione and Ron were TOGETHER.

I disagree that Harry is upset because he perceives them to be “together” as a couple. He is upset because he was alone in Privet Drive without proper information; he is upset that they were in the know, not suffering boredom, neglect, or loneliness as he was. Harry is lashing out at two people who care enough about him to take his abuse.

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 28, 2005 6:17 am (#636 of 1858)

Sorry about that, Catherine. Won't happen again.

I was talking about Sirius, not Lupin, and from what I've read in the chapter "Snape's Worst Memory" in OotP, Lily is not a close friend of the Marauders, as she has her own group of girls (who were down by the lake's edge when James and Sirius were tormenting Snape) and she only approached them because she pitied the hook-nosed, greasy-haired Slytherin.

No. Not TOGETHER as a couple. Just together, both of them. As I have said in my previous post (the long one), Harry disregarded all the other reasons behind his anger (like he was left alone at 4PD without any information) but berated Ron and Hermione for being together without him. What I mean is, he already knew that they were not getting information from the Order without passing it on to him, because they'd already explained that they weren't allowed in meetings, and that they were just busy decontaminating the house, so he tossed those aside. And I also don't believe that he only lashed out at them because "they care enough for him to take his abuse." I think that's a bit harsh on Harry.

Gryff out.

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TomProffitt - Feb 28, 2005 6:59 am (#637 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
" ... from what I've read in the chapter "Snape's Worst Memory" in OotP, Lily is not a close friend of the Marauders .... " --- Gryffindor Ghost

This is a single day at the close of fifth year. I didn't even meet my two best friends from school until sixth year (or US equivalent). What applied that day in Snape's memory may change drastically by the end of their seventh year. For all we know she became close friends with the Marauders and Snape, thus going to great (and futile) lengths to try to reconcile them.

Oh, and while I'm posting, I don't think Harry's ever objected to Ron & Hermione doing things with out him, he objects to isolation. He never had a problem going to or playing Quidditch and leaving the two alone together. He never objected to Ron & Hermione being together having fun while he was in detention. I can imagine Harry being quite the jerk if Ron & Hermione want to go on a Hogsmeade week-end together alone if Harry has just been rejected by the girl of his choice (whoever that may be). I can equally see him being just fine with it if he is doing something he wants at the same time, like snogging the girl of his choice, or getting extra DADA lessons from some appropriately respected mentor.

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Solitaire - Feb 28, 2005 8:15 am (#638 of 1858)

Gryff Ghost, we have seen both Ron and Harry plenty ticked off at Hermione--and the other way around--at various places in the series. Anyone who just caught a random day in the Pensieve about the time between Harry being chosen by the GoF and his first task would never assume Harry and Ron were friends ... would they? Remember that Ron was not really speaking to Harry for quite some time.

If someone happened to catch a glimpse of time following Hermione's reporting to McGonagall that Harry received the Firebolt, would the observer assume that she was close friends with Ron and Harry? I really do not think it is safe yet to assume that Lily was not on close terms with the Marauders, just because she was exasperated and angry at James and Sirius for mean and childish behavior. The day Harry witnessed could have occurred during a time when there was a falling out between her and the boys. OR ... like Hermione probably would have done even as their friend, she could have been chiding them for their stupid behavior.

Solitaire

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frogface - Feb 28, 2005 9:02 am (#639 of 1858)

We can't necessarily take Harry's words in the scene where he arrives at Grimmauld place too directly either. But which I mean just because he says "YOU'VE STILL BEEN TOGETHER, HAVEN'T YOU? ME, I'VE BEEN STUCK IN PRIVET DRIVE" or something to that effect, it doesn't necessarily mean his anger is actually aimed at them. It may sound harsh to say that he's taking out his emotions on them because they're his friends but really thats quite a realistic idea in my opinion. You have to remember that just before his summer holidays Harry suffered a very traumatic experience, not to mention he is now 15 and in full on over emotional teenage hormone teritory Razz which means that his anger in that scene can be contributed to many things other than Hermoine and Ron spending time together.

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Eric Bailey - Feb 28, 2005 11:34 am (#640 of 1858)

Yeah, he was upset that he couldn't be with his two friends, there, no more, no less.

That said, JKR confirmed Harry will be getting some romance in HBP, so it's just a question of who. Hermione or Luna would seem the most likely girl that he could find himself in this sort of situation with, considering he's not likely to be actively looking for someone with all that's going on. The thing about Harry and Hermione is so many people around them assume there's something there. Not just Rita spreading gossip, but Harry's own ex-girlfriend was jealous of Hermione.

Luna, meanwhile, developed a level of intimacy with Harry very quickly, over the space of a single book. Cho, his actual Ravenclaw girlfriend, at the time, never got as involved with Harry and his circle of friends they way Luna has. By the end, he was opening up to her when no one else, not Ron, Hermione, nor even Dumbledore, could get him to do so. Even in the worst times, Luna seems to be able to lift his spirits.

There's also a detail about JKR's own life that may factor in. She met her husband on a train, which is where Harry met both Hermione and Luna.

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Catherine - Feb 28, 2005 11:50 am (#641 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
There's also a detail about JKR's own life that may factor in. She met her husband on a train, which is where Harry met both Hermione and Luna. --Eric Bailey

I thought it was JKR's parents who met on a train.

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Weeny Owl - Feb 28, 2005 11:53 am (#642 of 1858)

I really do not think it is safe yet to assume that Lily was not on close terms with the Marauders, just because she was exasperated and angry at James and Sirius for mean and childish behavior.

That is an excellent point, Solitaire. Plus, before the troll incident, they weren't friends. There could easily have been a "troll incident" with Lily, James, and Sirius.

As for the discussion about them being together, before Harry even got to Grimmauld Place, he sent Hedwig with letters for Sirius, Ron, and Hermione, and told her to keep pecking them until his letters were answered. Of course his letters never were answered, and that was part of why he was so angry. He didn't care if Ron and Hermione had been injured by Hedwig.

You have to remember that just before his summer holidays Harry suffered a very traumatic experience, not to mention he is now 15 and in full on over emotional teenage hormone teritory Razz which means that his anger in that scene can be contributed to many things other than Hermoine and Ron spending time together.

Now that you mention it, frogface, he did have a traumatic experience, but in some ways it was more than just one. There were the dementors, of course, but he was afraid he would be expelled and that his wand would be snapped in two.

After all of that, and with a hearing looming over him, and with him still being attracted to Cho, I just don't see how Hermione figures into it in a romantic way at all.

Oh, and while I'm posting, I don't think Harry's ever objected to Ron & Hermione doing things with out him, he objects to isolation. He never had a problem going to or playing Quidditch and leaving the two alone together.

Harry has done quite a few things on his own without needing Ron and Hermione around, or really caring what they were doing, so I like this point, Tom.

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coolbeans3131 - Feb 28, 2005 2:33 pm (#643 of 1858)

It's impossible to tell who Harry will have this "romance" with in book 6 based on a pattern. He was attracted to Cho two whole books before her got together with her. He's never shown one moment of attraction toward Hermione, Ginny, Luna or anyone else. I think the girl in question will be making the moves here. Harry's not going to be thinking about romance.

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TomProffitt - Feb 28, 2005 2:41 pm (#644 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
"I think the girl in question will be making the moves here. Harry's not going to be thinking about romance." --- coolbeans3131

This is like a lot of guys like that age. I was so doped on hormones in High School that just about all of the girls at school looked good to me. If anyone of them tactfully got us together I was all for it. (Tact was kind of like the Yule Ball Rule, "the prettiest one that would have you," now equating to "the prettier she is the more blatant she could be about what she was doing and get away with it.")

I think Harry will be waylaid by at least one more girl before he finds his "true love."

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 28, 2005 2:44 pm (#645 of 1858)

I think even if Harry would rather snog Millicent Bulstrode, he might feel a bit sheepish if he found that Ron and Hermione were an item: sort of a "well, maybe I didn't want her but now she's definitely unavailable" kind of disappointment. Fleeting, if anything, but there - and fuel for the fire if he still has a lot of angst bubbling.

That having been said, I think we will not see much more of what some fan fiction sites quite appropriately call capslock!Harry. :-p I am currently writing a fanfic in which "Harry's fluffy book 6 romance" asks why he is all alone in Hogsmeade without his usual companions and he ruefully says "Actually, I think they're going to be seeing a great deal of each other's company for a while," which solves the problem Cho experienced, i.e. thinking that "The Boy Who Lived" and "The brightest witch of her generation" is such a damn good idea that Hermione is constantly perceived as threat/competition.

Hey, if Cho (a Ravenclaw) can think there's something in Harry/Hermione, then our own list of H/Hr shippers isn't doing too badly! (The fact that Cho was wrong - at the time - means nothing: she might be right later!)

Actually, the 'ship I think would do most for the ego of the Boy Who Lived is Harry/Dudley's pretty girlfriend. Duddykins has been getting so much at Harry's expense for so long that to find his GF not only knew about Harry (the Dursleys can't lock him up any more; remember the confrontation at the Station) but actually wanted him instead (and was too nice to believe the lies) would cause major vents of steam from the ears of all the Dursleys. (Of course it'll never happen, but it would be SO cool to read! Maybe JKR should do a charity book full of "HP moments you'll never see in Canon.")

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Gryffindor Ghost - Feb 28, 2005 9:06 pm (#646 of 1858)

Solitaire:

I really do not think it is safe yet to assume that Lily was not on close terms with the Marauders, just because she was exasperated and angry at James and Sirius for mean and childish behavior.

and

TomProfitt:

This is a single day at the close of fifth year. I didn't even meet my two best friends from school until sixth year (or US equivalent). What applied that day in Snape's memory may change drastically by the end of their seventh year. For all we know she became close friends with the Marauders and Snape, thus going to great (and futile) lengths to try to reconcile them.


Tom and Solitaire, I said, "from what I've read..." I was merely basing that opinion on that particular piece of prose. It is of course possible that Lily became friends with the Marauders (and even Snape, though I think this is highly unlikely).

frogface:

You have to remember that just before his summer holidays Harry suffered a very traumatic experience, not to mention he is now 15 and in full on over emotional teenage hormone teritory Razz which means that his anger in that scene can be contributed to many things other than Hermoine and Ron spending time together.


Frogface, as I have repeatedly mentioned in my earlier posts, Harry disregarded all other reasons behind his outburst, and on that particular CAPLSLOCK! sentence, he was only raging about Ron and Hermione being together without him. (I hope this is the last time I'll repeat it.)

Eric Bailey:

That said, JKR confirmed Harry will be getting some romance in HBP, so it's just a question of who. Hermione or Luna would seem the most likely girl that he could find himself in this sort of situation with, considering he's not likely to be actively looking for someone with all that's going on. The thing about Harry and Hermione is so many people around them assume there's something there. Not just Rita spreading gossip, but Harry's own ex-girlfriend was jealous of Hermione.

Luna, meanwhile, developed a level of intimacy with Harry very quickly, over the space of a single book. Cho, his actual Ravenclaw girlfriend, at the time, never got as involved with Harry and his circle of friends they way Luna has. By the end, he was opening up to her when no one else, not Ron, Hermione, nor even Dumbledore, could get him to do so. Even in the worst times, Luna seems to be able to lift his spirits.

There's also a detail about JKR's own life that may factor in. She met her husband on a train, which is where Harry met both Hermione and Luna.

Like what Catherine pointed out, it was JKR's parents who met on a train (or rather, on a train station: King's Cross). However, excellent points, Eric. Even Viktor Krum disregarded completely the Skeeter articles, and based his suspicion entirely on what kept coming out of Hermione's mouth, and on what he (Krum) could see between Harry and Hermione. Even Mrs. Weasley believed that Harry and Hermione are an item, partly because of the Daily Prophet and Witch Weekly articles, and partly because of what she can also see in H/Hr. Add to that the point that Harry has constantly defended Hermione from his own girlfriend. As for Luna, you can't really call that "intimacy" now, can you? I think Luna has a specific role in the books: to act as Harry's peer counselor and confidant on matters that Ron and Hermione can know nothing about (e.g. deaths, thestrals, the voices behind the veil, etc.)

Muggle Doctor:

Hey, if Cho (a Ravenclaw) can think there's something in Harry/Hermione, then our own list of H/Hr shippers isn't doing too badly! (The fact that Cho was wrong - at the time - means nothing: she might be right later!)

Excellent point, Doc. Even Ernie MacMillan, as early as CoS, said something like, "I just wanted to say, I'm sorry I ever suspected you, Potter. I know you'd never attack Hermione Granger..." or something to that effect. As for Dudley having a "pretty" girlfriend, I really can't think of that as a possibility. In fact, I think Dudley (and his parents) would receive a shock to find out Harry had already had a girlfriend (and a pretty one at that), and when Harry comes home to Privet Drive hand in hand with Hermione (oppss! My shippy side shows, gotta tuck it back in).

Gryff out.

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frogface - Mar 1, 2005 2:16 am (#647 of 1858)

"Frogface, as I have repeatedly mentioned in my earlier posts, Harry disregarded all other reasons behind his outburst, and on that particular CAPLSLOCK! sentence, he was only raging about Ron and Hermione being together without him. (I hope this is the last time I'll repeat it.)" - Gryffindor Ghost

If you read my post more clearly I actually say that you can't take what he says directly. i.e just because he says thats whats he's angry about, that doesn't necessarily mean he's being honest about it. Also I might add you might want to cool down abit in defending the H/Hr Ship yourself. You come dangerously close to offending people in some of your replys simply because they don't see things from your point of view.

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Kip Carter - Mar 1, 2005 3:14 am (#648 of 1858)

co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Gryffindor Ghost, I fully agree with frogface concerning "Also I might add you might want to cool down abit in defending the H/Hr Ship yourself. You come dangerously close to offending people in some of your replys simply because they don't see things from your point of view."

Gryffindor Ghost, I have placed you on Moderated status before and have warned you in emails. Other Hosts have sent you emails. You constantly state that you will change or that your were late reading your email or some other reason; however I do not feel that you are making a concerted effort to alter your ways.

I am normally a very patient and understanding manager of this Forum; however I am doing something now that may be considered unprofessional in posting my complain directly to this thread versus sending you another email. I am not placing you on Moderated status again. This post is your notice to either change your ways or your will loose all rights to posting on this Forum. The next time that you choose to not "play nice" will be your last post on this Forum. Your status, if you choose to disregard my decision, will be changed to No Access. I hope I have made myself very clear. I will not be sending you another email. If you have any problems with my decision, I strongly suggest that you use your email to contact me, not this Forum.

To our Other Members: I do apologize for using this post and thread to project managerial decisions versus using email; however dealing with Gryffindor Ghost has consumed entirely too much time for our staff.

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Joanne R. Reid - Mar 1, 2005 7:09 am (#649 of 1858)

Dear Kip,

We all thank you for your patience, your reluctance to interfere and your strength in taking matters in hand when needed.

Keep up the good work. Without your continued diligence, this forum would degenerate into something with which none of us would like to be associated.

Thanks,

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TGF - Mar 1, 2005 10:26 am (#650 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I would like to state that Kip = awesome, just for the record.

But anyhow, let's get back on track...

"It's impossible to tell who Harry will have this "romance" with in book 6 based on a pattern. He was attracted to Cho two whole books before her got together with her. He's never shown one moment of attraction toward Hermione, Ginny, Luna or anyone else." -- Coolbeans

I think that's a fair point, and it's something I've thought about recently. One really can't say which direction Harry will go in romantically, because he's just freshly over Cho. When I first read OotP once upon a time, I thought that the shipping debates would subside somewhat... and boy was I wrong. The uncertainty surrounding Harry's next romance have left fans trying to fill in the sort of relationship power vacuum that Harry is in right now, with either one candidate or another.

I think the conclusion one is forced to come to in the end is that there isn't as much 'evidence' there as any of the relationship parties would argue. Harry isn't someone who's going to be thinking about what his next relationship is going to be looking like right off the bat... GINNY is like that, to be sure, what with her finding an alternative to Corner none-too-long after ditching him (which is, by the by, why I thought shipping would become less intense after book 5... I thought Ginny's frivolity would effectively kill that ship, but again, I was quite wrong in estimating the HP fanbase). But Harry is different ... he seemed to genuinely care about Cho and while he is definetly over her by the end of the next book, I don't think anyone can really say that he's looking for his next love interest at that point.

"I was so doped on hormones in High School that just about all of the girls at school looked good to me. If anyone of them tactfully got us together I was all for it."

This made me laugh. Smile

I've always wondered why Harry doesn't get more of that kind of attention... I mean, sure, a lot of people were cursing his name under their breaths in Book 5... but he's still the Boy Who Lived, Quidditch Seeker and has all sorts of honours and distinctions. You'd think there would be more than a few girls that would entertain idle crushes, in light of that. Then again, I guess a lot of girls did come after him at the Yule Ball... and maybe he'll get even more of that treatment in Book 6. Lucky guy. Razz

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 651 to 700)

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Loopy Lupin - Mar 1, 2005 11:30 am (#651 of 1858)
You'd think there would be more than a few girls that would entertain idle crushes, in light of that.--TGF

You know, you would indeed think that wouldn't you? Now, of course, there was Ginny for a while, but she's only one. Perhaps it was clear to a lot of would-be suitors that Harry had eyes for Cho; it certainly seemed dead obvious to Hermione who knew Harry had liked Cho for "ages." It also seems to me that the whole "boyfriend/girlfried/relationship" thing didn't really develop until GOF when the gang turned 14, which in my view is about the time kids start actually having boyfriends/girlfriends as opposed to just saying someone is a boyfriend or girlfriend. Note further that during GOF Harry spent a lot of time denying that Hermione was his girlfriend and the supposed Harry/Hermione/Krum triangle was, literally, national news. Perhaps some girls thought it better not to tangle with Hermione. Finally, it might well be the case that there are quite a few girls fawning over Harry (a couple did ask him to the Yule Ball), but he's too clueless to notice.

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Catherine - Mar 1, 2005 11:34 am (#652 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Then again, I guess a lot of girls did come after him at the Yule Ball... and maybe he'll get even more of that treatment in Book 6. Lucky guy. Razz --TGF

You have a point there. I can see, now that he's no longer considered a lying, atttention-seeking prat, that girls may be more assertive in trying to get his attention.

Perhaps Harry will get some good "mad things girls do" advice from Hermione that will help his next romance be less of a bumpy ride.

EDIT: Loopy posted while I did. Darn it, he beat me again! **waves**

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Steve Newton - Mar 1, 2005 11:48 am (#653 of 1858)

Librarian
In GOF don't several girls ask Harry about the Ball?

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 1, 2005 12:02 pm (#654 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Catherine - I can see, now that he's no longer considered a lying, atttention-seeking prat, that girls may be more assertive in trying to get his attention.

Not to mention that he has been proven right, that he has faced down Voldemort a number of times, and that he and his D.A. went toe-to-toe with a dozen Death-Eaters and lived to tell the tale.

Yes, there are going to be a number of people re-evaluating their opinions of him. Who knows, maybe even some Slytherin girl might consider it in her best interests to be on the winning side. Any suggestions whom that might be?

wide-eyed innocent look*

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Catherine - Mar 1, 2005 12:07 pm (#655 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Yes, there are going to be a number of people re-evaluating their opinions of him. Who knows, maybe even some Slytherin girl might consider it in her best interests to be on the winning side. Any suggestions whom that might be?

**wide-eyed innocent look**--Marcus

Hmm...wide eyes....I'm thinking Luna has a very wide-eyed look, but I bet that's not what Marcus is thinking....hmmmm.....I'm thinking Bambi, but that's the wrong species.....hmmmm...pugs are very cute and have big, wide eyes....

Did I get close to your answer, Marcus?

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Weeny Owl - Mar 1, 2005 1:03 pm (#656 of 1858)

I was reading CoS last night, and after Harry's arm bones were grown back and Madam Pomfrey told him he could leave the hospital wing, he wondered why he hadn't seen Ron and Hermione. He felt "slightly hurt" that they hadn't checked to see how his arm was. He wasn't slightly hurt that they might be together, but that they hadn't checked on him. After going to Moaning Myrtle's bathroom and finding them there, everything was okay.

I think that is how Harry would deal with any relationships his friends are in. He would be slightly hurt if something is going on in his life that they aren't attentive to, but other than that, he wouldn't care.

Who knows, maybe even some Slytherin girl might consider it in her best interests to be on the winning side. Any suggestions whom that might be?

Ummm... Millicent, perhaps?

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 1, 2005 1:34 pm (#657 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 1, 2005 12:36 pm
It would be nice if Millicent would thaw. Finally one of Rowling's thugs would show a personality. But I don't think so. Millicent serves little more than Crabbe or Goyle in drag. None of them have any personality to speak of -- beyond basic thug that is.

Maybe she will provide muscle to Pansy as she stages her revolt against the Death Nibblers in Slytherin.

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Tomoé - Mar 1, 2005 2:20 pm (#658 of 1858)

Back in business
I'd like to back track to Paxman's question about the shiping. Let's re-read the famous quote about the supposed 'ship in the heart of the series (let's pretent it's about ship all along) :

JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that?

JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.

First thing to notice is the direct answer to the question, I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. The question was "Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that?" There two way for that answer to make sense, either there's no unlikely pairing at all or unlikely pairings will mess with the more commonly accepted 'ships. Edit: the "And some of them even get quite close" part would prove the second (if it's still about unlikely pairing and not theories at large).

If we pretend all the answer is about unlikely romantic pairing, it have to be so deeply involved with the other plot thread, that it is the heart of it all, explains everything and everything has been building up to it. My, quite a major role to live up to, a relationship even more important to the plot than Ginny's relation with Tom Riddle diary in CoS or the relationship between Snape and the Marauders in PoA (even if both weren't romantic). I don't see any unlikely pairing with Harry getting any close to this (maybe I just lack imagination). An older ship maybe, it could have been Snape->Lily if it wasn't that much expected, but maybe Myrtle->Voldemort, or Voldemort's mom with Dumbeldore (just throwing name randomly).

Unless Jo understand unlikely pairing as romatic and non-romantic pairing like Sarah proposed (or maybe she thought of romantic pairing at the begining of the answer and switched on pairings at large at one point). In this case, Snape and Harry finally working together could be what she was thinking about.

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TomProffitt - Mar 1, 2005 2:39 pm (#659 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
"In this case, Snape and Harry finally working together could be what she was thinking about." --- Tomoe

Excellent idea. I think this kind of thinking is a lot closer to the quote than Harry/Pansy. I'm not saying I agree 100% with a Snape/Harry alliance vs. Voldemort, but it's a wonderful starting point for considering the quote.

Maybe you should start a thread for discussing this theory, Tomoe.

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Tomoé - Mar 1, 2005 3:35 pm (#660 of 1858)

Back in business
I was just throwing Harry/Snape's possibility as it was the first that came to my mind, but a "Harry and Snape" thread would surely last (I started one if anyone's interested).

However, the very first sentence of JKR's anwser is very interesting, I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. There's not much unlikely pairings trend around in fandom (unless I'm not observant, if so, do tell me), so a "no" wouldn't ruin all the fan sites (or maybe it's just a red herring). It does sound like she have a major unlikely pairing in store and one that will mess with the trio's 'ships (even if it is or not what she think about later in her answer, the thing in the heart of it all).

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Eponine - Mar 1, 2005 4:00 pm (#661 of 1858)

There's not much unlikely pairings trend around in fandom - Tomoe

Well, I'm going to guess that you haven't been out there too much because people ship everything from canon plausible (R/Hr, H/Hr, H/G, H/L) to the utterly unimaginable (Theodore Nott/Giant Squid anyone?). I once saw someone state that they shipped Blaise Zabini with either Hermione or Ginny (can't remember which) because they just fit so perfectly together. Huh? I don't remember ever seeing anything of Blaise beyond the sorting in PS/SS.

So, yes there are many many many unlikely pairings out there, but I don't know how aware of these Jo is.

I still say the quote is about theories in general. If it is about a pairing, then I would have to go with a non-romantic one because I don't think any romance is going to be "the heart of it all".

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S.E. Jones - Mar 1, 2005 4:12 pm (#662 of 1858)

Let it snow!
Eponine: If it is about a pairing, then I would have to go with a non-romantic one because I don't think any romance is going to be "the heart of it all".

Hear, hear!!!

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Catherine - Mar 1, 2005 4:27 pm (#663 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Hear, hear!!! --S.E. Jones

The gang's all here. Count me in as one of those who don't think that a romantic 'ship is the heart of it all.

Come to think of it, sometime in the future, would this be a good topic for the "Vote" thread?

EDIT: Never mind. I see that Tomoe has started an interesting thread on Fraternal Relationships and the heart of it all. Interesting topic!

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Weeny Owl - Mar 1, 2005 4:44 pm (#664 of 1858)

It doesn't seem likely that the heart of a series of seven books would be a romance.

Unlikely pairings? Surely no one could be referring to Argus and Dolores!

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Tomoé - Mar 1, 2005 5:17 pm (#665 of 1858)

Back in business
Theodore Nott/Giant Squid, it that a real guess or just a joke?

Ok it does sounds like a "no" for the unlikely pairings would compromise a lot of pairing.

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TGF - Mar 1, 2005 6:30 pm (#666 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Well, I maintain my earlier position that a romantic relationship will be the most important of relations towards the end of the books, in light of what Dumbledore said about love being Harry's strongest asset. It seems to me that the natural evolution of that won't be fraternal love (he already has that going from book 1) but romantic. It would certainly lend the romance subplot a greater meaning than that of a simple diversion.

Edit: ohhhhhhh post #666 in the thread, spooky.

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S.E. Jones - Mar 2, 2005 12:18 am (#667 of 1858)

Let it snow!
I would think that the natural evolution would be self-less love, not romantic love.

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TGF - Mar 2, 2005 2:01 am (#668 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Since when can romantic love not be selfless? You speak as if the two concepts are mutually exclusive... Can one not love someone selflessly in a romantic sense? James loved Lily selflessly, did he not? And their love was a romantic love.

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S.E. Jones - Mar 2, 2005 10:02 am (#669 of 1858)

Let it snow!
TGF: Can one not love someone selflessly in a romantic sense?

Certainly they can, but you mentioned the natural evolution of fraternal love. I would think that would be the fraternal love becoming self-less before becoming romantic.....

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TGF - Mar 2, 2005 10:52 am (#670 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
'Evolution' also implies it hasn't happened already. In the battle of the DoW, Harry springs forth for Sirius' sake automatically and unhesitantly. And that's are just one example, there are many many more instances where Harry expresses his unconditional love to all of his friends.

As I wrote many many posts back, the books have explored fraternal love and the love for one's parents. Romantic love, however, has only been covered in the most superficial of ways. I say again: Dumbledore declared that Harry's greatest strength is his ability to love... it seems a bit strange to me that people would assert that the love between a man and a woman is somehow discluded within this concept. Fraternal love, yes... that will always be there with Harry. But I don't think romantic love will or should be constricted into a limited subplot.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 2, 2005 11:10 am (#671 of 1858)

I say again: Dumbledore declared that Harry's greatest strength is his ability to love... it seems a bit strange to me that people would assert that the love between a man and a woman is somehow discluded within this concept.

The love between a man and a woman shouldn't be discluded, but Harry is still a teen, and will be until, perhaps, the epilogue.

Whether or not JKR writes these books for children or they're just published as children's books, the target audience, overall, isn't an adult one.

I just don't see her basing the heart of an entire series on a romance.

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TGF - Mar 2, 2005 11:32 am (#672 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I don't think she really considers her demographics when she writes. She has torture, betrayal, murder and a villian whose ideology amounts to a form of ethnic cleansing.

That aside, errr... I wasn't suggesting anything inappropriate for the wee children. You can have G rated romance, don't you know.

Rowling's official position:

Duck__69 asks: Are you going to get more mature themes as your books age or are you going to keep it geared toward younger kids

jkrowling_bn: I think an eight or nine year old will be able to read all seven books

jkrowling_bn: that's my intention

jkrowling_bn: however, Harry is growing up, so obviously he will face certain issues an eight year old won't

jkrowling_bn: I don't think, however, that that will be uninteresting for an eight year old

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So there you go... nothing that would offend or is beyond the grasp of an 8 year old, but things that go beyond that scope nonetheless... that's just about what I expected. No 'adult' scenes, but rather instead concepts that would take an adult mind to fully grasp.

Edit: Ah wait, I found another quote...

As your fan base is growing larger, and maybe even younger, do you feel any sense of social responsibility, any sense of responsibilities to their sensibilities?

I cannot write to please other people. I can't. When I finish book 7, I want to be able to look in the mirror and think, I did it the way I meant to do it. If I lose readers in the process, I'm not going to throw a party about it. But I would feel far worse if I knew that I had allowed myself to write something different. Yet, I do have parents coming up to me and saying "He's 6 and he loved your book!" And I've always kind of been, "Well, that's great, but I know what's coming, and I think 6 is a tiny bit too young." I've always felt that. With my daughter and Goblet of Fire, I'm reading it to her. Her reading age is pretty advanced, but I said, "I'm gonna read that one to you. It's scary, and I want to be there with you, and then we can talk about it." That would be my feeling if parents feel that.

From: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So, it's appropriate for an 8 year old, but not so for 6 year old. Razz More importantly, she says she's not going to hold back for the sake of demographics. A good philosophy, in my opinion.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 2, 2005 1:44 pm (#673 of 1858)

That aside, errr... I wasn't suggesting anything inappropriate for the wee children. You can have G rated romance, don't you know.

I'm not talking about anything inappropriate at all; merely that an eight-year-old is going to be much more interested in a book that has all of that fun stuff... blood, gore, fights, etc. ... than in a book where the hero is in love. The love between a man and a woman includes all of the things adults face, such as jobs, where to live, how many children to have, and so on. Harry will be only seventeen in the last book, possible epilogue aside, and with all that he has to face, his love life just doesn't seem important in the basic scheme of things.

Having the heart of the entire series being based on a romance just doesn't seem at all plausible, and quite frankly, seems to me to be cliched and rather cheesy. Love for friends, family, a way of life, and even including a romance makes more sense to me, but not just a romance by itself.

If JKR bases the final confrontation with Voldemort on a romance that Harry is having, I would feel that she was writing one long romance novel rather than a battle between good and evil, and I would find it extremely disappointing.

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Muggle Doctor - Mar 2, 2005 2:38 pm (#674 of 1858)

Weeny Owl, I will clip and rearrange your last sentence there:

If JKR bases the final confrontation with Voldemort on a romance that Harry is having, I would... find it extremely disappointing.

Hear Hear. I can, however, see his 'ship to end all 'ships enabling him to be less angsty, stressed, suspicious and hateful, thus fitting him better for a final conflict where love is the key.

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Chemyst - Mar 2, 2005 3:14 pm (#675 of 1858)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
discluded – not a real word, right?
Anyway, when I read the interview transcripts, the word "love" sounded as if it fit into this series: love, honor, duty... more than into any series such as: love, hugs, kisses...
The 'nobler love' never escapes the possibility that self-sacrifice may be involved. I agree with Weeny Owl about the final confrontation with Voldemort. The final conflict will reflect what issues JKR considers to be the essential purpose of life, and that is not going to center upon cupid-strewn confetti.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 2, 2005 10:43 pm (#676 of 1858)

I can definitely agree with that, Muggle Doctor!

I like that description, Chemyst... love, honor, duty as opposed to love, hugs, and kisses.

Cupid-strewn confetti? Only if Lockhart can plan the final confrontation.

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Catherine - Mar 3, 2005 5:26 am (#677 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Cupid-strewn confetti? Only if Lockhart can plan the final confrontation. --Weeny Owl

Very apt descriptions, Weeny and Chemyst. I was reading Weeny's post and thinking it interesting that mentioned Lockhart, as in "lock heart."

This turned my thoughts to the locked door in the MoM. While there is a whole thread devoted to CoS and that "small thing" that will prove important, I am still thinking that Gilderoy's name makes me connect the door and heart.

I don't think the power behind the locked door is the "love" of teenage crushes and confetti and cupids.

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TGF - Mar 3, 2005 10:12 am (#678 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I was never attempting to imply something akin to one of those mass produced harlequin romances or any one of those horrid romantic comedy movies. You also all seem to believe that any relationship Harry will have will be, at its heart, superficial. I don't know why that is... from a literary perspective, Harry's age shouldn't really matter in that regard. If Rowling wants Harry to be emotionally mature towards the end of the books, then he will be, and I would find it perplexing if he were not.

But, I suppose having an ongoing back and forth on this issue will not be all that productive, so I shall not press this point further.

Edit: Also: I don't think I could convince any of you to start with Razz
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Weeny Owl - Mar 3, 2005 10:43 am (#679 of 1858)

Oh, that's an interesting point about the "small thing," Catherine!

It isn't whether or not Harry is emotionally mature near the end of the books, but that in this whole series, Harry has had to fight various evils of one kind or another, and by having Harry's love life be the heart of the of it all just doesn't fit with the series I've read.

In the final battle, I can picture Harry thinking about all the people he's ever loved... his parents, Dumbledore, Sirius, his friends, Cho, and his current girlfriend even, but I can't picture Harry thinking only of his current girlfriend and that being what causes Voldemort's destruction.

Love may be at the heart of the series, but there are so many types of love, having only one type doesn't fit in with what JKR has written so far.

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 3, 2005 10:50 am (#680 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 3, 2005 9:51 am
I completely and fully agree with Weeny. Harry will enjoy a bit of romance in the next two books. He might even pair up with his future life partner. However, it is not likely in my opinion that romantic love will become the central theme of the series.

I just don't see the Harry Potter series turning into 'Sweet Valley Hogwarts', as Denise might say.

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Eponine - Mar 3, 2005 1:15 pm (#681 of 1858)

Sweet Valley Hogwarts LOL!

TGF, I partly agree with you. I do believe that from a literary standpoint it makes no sense to not have Harry emotionally mature at the end of the books. I also fully expect him to be paired up with his life partner at the end of the books. I expect Harry to have a meaningful relationship at some point in these books. However, if the "heart of it all" is Harry's ability to love then I would expect it to be every kind of love, not just romantic. I don't doubt that having a girlfriend who he loves will affect him somehow, but I'm going along with what Weeny Owl says - that it doesn't fit in with what Jo has been writing for it to be only romantic love.

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TGF - Mar 3, 2005 1:57 pm (#682 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
When exactly did I say 'only'? This is something which can exist alongside every other kind of love... I've never said: 'book 6 and 7 will be all about Harry fawning over some girl, which will in turn cause Voldemort to spontaneously combust'... Loving a girl does not preclude one's ability to love a friend or parental figure!

All I'm saying is that the romance subplot will likely evolve from being the silly diversion that it is now into a more integral and meaningful part of the stories (ideally, that's what subplots are supposed to do to begin with). I don't think it's such a strange thing to assert that if love is, as Dumbledore says, Harry's greatest asset, then one can count on romantic love coming into play in a more pronounced way, ALONGSIDE the fraternal and parental love that the books have explored thus far.

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coolbeans3131 - Mar 3, 2005 7:59 pm (#683 of 1858)

Sorry to change the subject, I was just thinking of something. Why did Jo make Cho jealous of Hermione? We already saw that with Krum. Harry and Cho already had more than enough complications and obstacles in their way. Why have both their fights end up being about Hermione?

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Gryffindor Ghost - Mar 3, 2005 8:45 pm (#684 of 1858)

I'm back after three or four days in a row without visiting the Forum (and all other sites for that matter, since I haven't been online for the past days).

Anyway, I apologize to all those concerned, and to Kip, I'll just send you an email with all my explanations.

I have to say I agree with coolbeans here. Why indeed? And we of course know JKR doesn't write something just for the fun of it; she makes sure that every single detail in her books has its own significance and importance to the story, and that these details often have deeper meanings than what meets the eye.

Gryff out.

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Solitaire - Mar 4, 2005 8:06 am (#685 of 1858)

Edited by S.E. Jones Mar 4, 2005 9:38 am
This may sound off the wall, but what if Jo meant by not bowing to demographics that she was not going to focus on big romantic issues just to satisfy her older readers? And by older readers I mean the teens who are so into 'shipping, not adults. Adults don't really need Harry to have some hot-n-heavy thing to keep us interested.

Most of the adult fans I know are far more interested in different kinds of relationships: Harry-Snape, the Harry-Voldemort-Dumbledore triad, the Harry-Ron-Hermione relationship as friends, the sextet, new people who will join the sextet, Slytherin-other houses, etc. Adventure is definitely the key here, and I believe any romances will flow in and around this and be a part of it rather than some separate focus.

I've read speculation about the kinds of girls who interest Harry. Loving Harry will not be an easy job. Face it ... he is a walking danger zone. Loving him is NOT for the squeamish or chicken-hearted! The girl who ultimately captures Harry's heart will have to be an adventurous partner, I think, who can hold her own. Thus far, we have seen three who qualify, and more may join this category in book 6. I suppose it's always possible that he would want someone who is more detached from this part of his life to take his mind off things. Somehow, though, it seems more likely that, as he matures, he will want a life partner who can understand and share his "issues" with Voldemort, because they play such a huge role in defining who he is becoming. JM2K ...

Solitaire

->I just changed one word from 'ships to relationships so as to prevent confusion or discussion of unwanted topics.<- SE Jones

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OliveHornby - Mar 4, 2005 8:28 am (#686 of 1858)

Somehow, though, it seems more likely that, as he matures, he will want a life partner who can understand and share his "issues" with Voldemort, because they play such a huge role in defining who he is becoming.

This is a good argument for the H/G 'ship. Ginny has been violated by Voldemort in a much more personal way than perhaps any other student at Hogwarts other than Harry. She also seems to have an incredible amount of nerve and daring.

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Loopy Lupin - Mar 4, 2005 11:21 am (#687 of 1858)

Perhaps, but I think the Ginny "thing" has come and gone though. She seems to have moved on and views Harry in terms other than as a love interest.

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Joanne R. Reid - Mar 4, 2005 11:30 am (#688 of 1858)

Hi,

Loopy Lupin, I was thinking that if Harry did show even the slightest interest, Ginny would quickly reciprocate. I think she's moving on because she is interested in exploring her world at Hogwarts, freed from the comfinements of the Burrow and her brothers. And, of course, she's moving on because Harry hasn't shown the slightest interest in her.

Thanks,

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Eponine - Mar 4, 2005 1:18 pm (#689 of 1858)

Just because she's given up on him, does not mean she's over him. She may certainly be completely over him by now, but the words used--"given up"--do leave room for speculation.

Ginny and Harry do share a unique experience. Yes, there are others who also share experiences/feelings with Harry (Luna-knows what it means to lose someone you're close to, Neville-knows what it's like to grow up without any parents), but the experience that Harry and Ginny share is unique to them only. As canon stands now, there is no one else who has come that close to Voldemort/Tom Riddle and survived.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 4, 2005 1:27 pm (#690 of 1858)

Ginny may have given up on Harry or she may have given up on him temporarily.

Lily seemed to despise James in fifth year, but by seventh year, they were dating. Cho dated Cedric, Harry, and Michael Corner. Dating more than one person before settling down is normal, especially during school.

I agree wtih Joanne, though, that if Harry did show interest, Ginny wouldn't hesitate.

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Solitaire - Mar 4, 2005 6:05 pm (#691 of 1858)

I agree with Weeny, Joanne, and Eponine. You can move on if someone does not reciprocate your interest, but that does not necessarily mean the feelings have died or waned. She may still care very much about Harry, but she isn't going to sit and pine while she waits for him to notice her as more than Ron's sister. Smart girl!

I think that time and shared experiences may eventually give Harry pause. Ginny is a lot like him in more ways than just the Voldemort business. She is bold and determined (or perhaps stubborn and headstrong)--much like Harry himself--and eventually Harry may come to see her as more than just Ron's kid sister. He may not be romantically interested in her, but I think he will eventually begin to appreciate her as an interesting young woman in her own right.

Solitaire

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Prisoner of Rowling - Mar 5, 2005 12:31 am (#692 of 1858)

I think that if Harry is to have a romantic -ship, it may well be with Ginny. The young mind changes a great deal over the last 7 years at school. When Harry and Ginny first met, she was a 10 year old with a crush on a famous 11 year old. At that age, a one year gap would seem huge. Coupled with the fact that Ginny is Ron's little sister, it was a complete non-starter. But over past few years (past few books), Ginny has become more than Ron's little sister and has grown to be Harry's friend with a lot of mutual understanding. By the time we get to the end of HBP we'll see the relationship of a 15 year old and a 16 year old. A lot more feasible.

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Eric Bailey - Mar 5, 2005 5:14 am (#693 of 1858)

But, all that applies to Harry's relationships with Hermione and Luna. In fact, they strike me as The Two Most Likely in the Harry's Romantic Interest Sweepstakes.

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TomProffitt - Mar 6, 2005 6:41 am (#694 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
I think that Harry is better suited to a rock solid normal girl. A girl that will listen to him. Harry's got a lot of trouble in his life and needs support.

Luna hardly qualifies in my mind as "rock solid normal," but I will admit that description might be overstating the case. Luna's a tough one to judge. I think Harry needs a girl that brings normality and stability into his life. I have trouble figuring which way a relationship with Luna would go.

Conversely, Hermione is too busy planning House Elf Rebellion and Harry's study schedule to actually listen to Harry. I think Harry and Hermione is a poor fit, and the more I think about it the more I am convinced of it.

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Eric Bailey - Mar 6, 2005 7:05 am (#695 of 1858)

Because Harry's so "Joe Normal", right? Harry doesn't strike me as the sort who'd be intimidated by a girl being smart and interesting.

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Eponine - Mar 6, 2005 7:22 am (#696 of 1858)

Being smart and interesting doesn't preclude a girl from being 'rock solid normal'.

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Eric Bailey - Mar 6, 2005 4:51 pm (#697 of 1858)

And, again, Harry's just your average Joe?

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TomProffitt - Mar 6, 2005 6:56 pm (#698 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
It's not about Harry being a "an average Joe" it's about Harry being comfortable. Ron & Hermione's bickering, for example, really bothers Harry, but doesn't seem to be much more than a game to his friends. Harry has enough conflict in his life without getting it from his girlfriend.

The problem with Cho wasn't that she had a problem she couldn't handle, it was that Cho had a problem that Harry couldn't handle.

At this point in his life Harry doesn't need a girlfriend who's going to bring more drama to his life, he needs a girl who can help him handle the tons of drama he already has.

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Eric Bailey - Mar 7, 2005 3:10 am (#699 of 1858)

That would seem to be what Luna's doing. Sure, she's unusual, but, mainly, she's taken the emotional load off him, a little. She seems to balance him, quite nicely.

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Liz Mann - Mar 7, 2005 4:05 am (#700 of 1858)

Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
To be honest I think there's more evidence that Luna is attracted to Ron. E.g. her reaction to his joke about Goyle (was it Goyle? Or Crabbe?).

I have come up with a theory that Harry/Luna and Harry/Hermione shippers probably won't agree with, but (it's not really a theory, more like an idea) maybe Ron will use Luna to try and make Hermione jealous.

As for Harry, I think it's more likely Ginny. There's only really one piece of evidence that I can see for Harry/Hermione and that is that she was very cool when she found out about his kissing Cho. But that could have been because she didn't approve of Cho. She already knew, for example, about the crying all the time, and maybe she thought the same as TomProffitt, that Harry doesn't need a girl who's adding more drama to his life. But she kept quiet about it because she knew Harry liked her.

Harry and Ginny, on the other hand, is different. Ginny never spoke around Harry while she had her crush on him, which prevented both him and us from getting to know her true personality. She came off as quiet and reserved. But now that she's got over that she has suddenly revealed herself to be a very vibrant and spirited young woman, whom Harry is getting to know better away from Ron and Hermione. And besides that Ginny has very personal things in common with Harry that Ron and Hermione don't - mainly that she has had experience of Lord Voldemort too. I think it's going to mean that Harry gets closer to her, because she understands what he's going through more than his other friends.

Also, perhaps a more trivial piece of evidence - a messy black-haired man with glasses and a red-haired woman? Sounds a bit like another couple in the books, doesn't it?

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'Ship-'Ship' (Exploring relationships) - Page 3 Empty Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 701 to 750)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 15, 2011 9:49 am

Eric Bailey - Mar 7, 2005 4:54 am (#701 of 1858)
Edited by Catherine Mar 7, 2005 4:28 am
Or, messy black haired man with glasses and smart muggleborn woman? Or, what if, since we're apparently going to learn more about Lily, she was a Ravenclaw? I don't think Harry has a mother fixation, anyway.

"Evidence" and "foreshadowing" can be used to point to a large number of ships. Even the Harry/Pansy folks claim "evidence" and "foreshadowing".

I edited a comment that was not compatible with our Forum guidelines. Email me if you have any questions.--Catherine A.

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frogface - Mar 7, 2005 5:13 am (#702 of 1858)

Edited by Catherine Mar 7, 2005 4:29 am
LOL!

Edit: I have just done a bit of research and its been confirmed that Lily was in Gryffindor.

I edited a comment that did not conform to Forum guidelines. Email me if you have any questions.--Catherine A.

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Solitaire - Mar 7, 2005 8:24 am (#703 of 1858)

It's quite possible that Harry hasn't even met--or at least is not "socially" aware of--the girl who will become his "ultimate 'ship." I can certainly see positives AND negatives regarding possible romances with each of the three main ladies thus far. Until they all (boys and girls) mature a bit, however, I have a hard time seeing him with any of the three on a permanent basis. Short term? Perhaps, as shared experiences (fighting the DEs, etc.) can sometimes make people feel they have more in common than they actually do. It will be interesting to watch ...

Solitaire

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coolbeans3131 - Mar 7, 2005 9:34 am (#704 of 1858)

It's quite possible that Harry hasn't even met--or at least is not "socially" aware of--the girl who will become his "ultimate 'ship." - Solitaire

If that were to happen, there would have to be a number of pages dedicated to building that ship. I think we all agree these aren't romance novels. That's one of the best parts of H/H. That ship is mostly built. All it would take is that moment that causes things to change and to move into different territory.

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TomProffitt - Mar 7, 2005 10:02 am (#705 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
"If that were to happen, there would have to be a number of pages dedicated to building that ship." --- coolbeans

It is actually not all that many pages to set up a new girl for Harry. Maybe four scenes. One to introduce the character. One to introduce Harry's interest. One to introduce mutual interest. And another to bring them together. Put each of these scenes within a scene that is advancing the plot and you don't actually have many extra pages that don't advance the plot. Probably less than ten pages total. This process can be done with a brand new character or with any character that already exists that wouldn't require a major attitude shift.

It would be a lot harder to pair Ron up with someone new, because so many scenes have been written that establish his interest in Hermione. But, with Harry, there isn't a whole lot of old stuff to set aside.

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coolbeans3131 - Mar 7, 2005 10:30 am (#706 of 1858)

That's true if it's going to be another Cho. Solitaire said "ultamite ship". I took that to mean a serious girlfriend. I don't think Harry's going to have another "Cho". I can't see him getting worked up about whether to hold a girls hand or not. He's got too many other things to worry about.

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Fawkes Forever - Mar 7, 2005 10:40 am (#707 of 1858)

Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Liz, I always noted that Luna has a 'little thing' for Ron too.

I think it would be fun if Jo included more of Luna's little interactions with Ron. Especially if Ron begins to realise that Luna might fancy him He was funny when he wondered why she was being so over the top in regards to his joke and his reaction to her Griffindor Lion Hat, in the 'Good Luck Ronald' scene, If he thought or knew she fancied him, I'd love to see how he'd (over)react to that! Would be definate potential for some humour & again showing the lighter side of school age relationships!

Interesting to note that the 'Lion Hat/ Good Luck Ronald' scene occurred just before Ron received a 'good luck kiss' from a certain prefect. Ron may have not realised that Luna fancies him, but I think I know someone who has figured it out

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TomProffitt - Mar 7, 2005 10:42 am (#708 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
It really is that simple, coolbeans. Even if it is Harry's ultimate 'ship. If we assume it to be Harry's ultimate 'ship then it is safe to surmise that she (this unknown girl) will be involved in all of the other plot action. This allows development of character and relationship while advancing the plot. Consider how many actual pages of OP actually focus on Luna Lovegood. Not much at all. It can be done simply and believably.

That's not saying Harry's ultimate 'ship will be a completely new character (or essentially new), just that it can be done.

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Joanne R. Reid - Mar 8, 2005 7:50 am (#709 of 1858)

Hi,

I don't know why, but I've always thought that Harry and Ginny would "find" each other before the series ended. I keep trying to justify my feelings, but I don't have any good rationale for them.

I do remember one important aspect of play writing: If a gun appears on a table in Act One, Scene 1, then it had better be used to fulfill the plot by the end of the play. In some ways, Ginny's crush on Harry is like that gun on the table.

Further, we have seen Ginny mature as a person and grow as a witch. She is a strong and capable person, with a good sense of humor. She is as powerful as any of the other DA's at the MoM, and her use of the Bat Bogey hex inspires her brothers' awe.

And, I like the parallel between Jim and Lily. I also like the idea of a marriage/alliance between Harry and the Weasleys. After all, Harry is something of a surrogate son already. So, it would be quite fitting if he were to become a son-in-law.

However, as I said, I don't have any real evidence for this point of view. And, Jo Rowling has shown her great skill in finding wonderful plot twists. Still, I think it'd be nice to have them date and to explore the potential of a relationship, even if they don't end up as life partners.

Thanks,

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Liz Mann - Mar 8, 2005 11:52 am (#710 of 1858)

Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I like your example about the gun, Joanne.

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 8, 2005 1:39 pm (#711 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Interesting analogy about the gun. How about if there was a vase of flowers on the table at the start of the play? Must that be used to fulfill the plot by the end of the play?

So was her crush a vase of flowers or a gun?

Don't forget that Rowling has used Ginny's crush in the first two books to fulfil the plot. Her crush helped explain away her several of her "guilty" reactions in CoS. Now that that is over, there is no more reason for her to have a crush, so she has moved on.

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Eponine - Mar 8, 2005 1:52 pm (#712 of 1858)

Well, then why did she continue to write Ginny's crush on Harry through the next two books? If it was only a plot device in CoS, what was the use of it in PoA and GoF? Personally, I think this story line is not yet finished. She didn't build this crush up for three books to dismiss it with one line in OotP. IMO, there is something else coming.

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 8, 2005 2:03 pm (#713 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Eponine - Well, then why did she continue to write Ginny's crush on Harry through the next two books?

So you would have a world-class author such as Rowling drop a hero-worshipping crush as soon as its main purpose is fulfilled? How realistic is that?

I think Rowling paced it just about right. Ginny's crush lasted in full bloom about one year. It was more hero-worship than anything else. It lingered for awhile until her newly active hormones started to tell her that there were other fish in the sea.

She has now moved on to those other fish. Why would she want to go back?

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Weeny Owl - Mar 8, 2005 3:06 pm (#714 of 1858)

Perhaps many of us who see Ginny maturing and developing feelings that are less hero worship and more a strong and enduring love are female and have gone through something like that. I would really like to know if those who support Harry and Ginny together are male or female. Not that that would mean anything, but it would be interesting to see.

Ginny wasn't really included in a lot of what the trio did, but that changed in OotP. She is now really a part of their group, and by showing her as less of a little girl with a crush and more of a young lady who is growing up, JKR could easily have Ginny now appear different to Harry. Harry might finally see her as the lovely and strong young lady she is and not just as his friend's little sister.

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Catherine - Mar 8, 2005 3:31 pm (#715 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
I see your point, Weeny.

Ginny actually talks to Harry now; he has a chance to know her as someone other than the tongue-tied eleven year old who stuck her elbow into the butter dish.

I think it's interesting that Harry saw Ginny so early on, but didn't really see her. It wouldn't be the first time that something that was right in front of Harry (a solution, a villain, a plot) that he didn't see it for what it truly was until the end.
So I'm holding out hope and some expectation that Ginny will be one of those people that Harry views in a different light, and sees more clearly and completely.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 8, 2005 3:46 pm (#716 of 1858)

::waving madly and wildly to Catherine::

Oh, oh, oh... you've got me so excited now about this!

I think it's interesting that Harry saw Ginny so early on, but didn't really see her. It wouldn't be the first time that something that was right in front of Harry (a solution, a villain, a plot) that he didn't see it for what it truly was until the end.
What a great viewpoint, Catherine! Harry does that so much, and I could so easily see JKR writing it just this way.

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 8, 2005 3:50 pm (#717 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Weeny, I think if you held a poll here at the Forum you would find that more females than males support H/G. I also think it likely that you would find that more females than males opposes H/G.

Can you guess why?

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Catherine - Mar 8, 2005 3:59 pm (#718 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Weeny, I think if you held a poll here at the Forum you would find that more females than males support H/G. I also think it likely that you would find that more females than males opposes H/G. --Marcus

Is this one of those infernal logic thingies designed to make my head spin around on my shoulders?

Hmmm...more females support Harry/Ginny and more females oppose Harry/Ginny.

I admit it. I'm confused. I'll let "the engineer" sort this one out for me.

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Eric Bailey - Mar 8, 2005 4:27 pm (#719 of 1858)

We seem to be moving towards Ginny and Neville, actually, given the newfound maturity and confidance of both. Neville's the one who sees Ginny as her own person, rather than mainly "Ron's little sister". He's the one who became part of the Sextet to protect one person, that person being Ginny. I think Ginny deserves a nice guy who cares about her for her, rather than because she's a friend's kid sister.

As for Harry, we have his reaction when she pointed out to him that he wasn't the only person who'd been possessed by Voldemort. "I forgot". He was THERE for it. He didn't have this problem with Luna, and he not only wasn't there for the traumatic experience they had in common, but she'd hadn't ever told him about it. He figured out something and asked her. By the end of the last book, Luna was the one person Harry felt he could really open up to.

There's also the emphasis on eyes in this series to consider. Most people, including Sirius, tend to think Harry's just like his dad, because he looks like him. It's the more sensitive people, like Remus, who especially notice Harry has his mother's eyes, suggesting that, deep down, Harry's more like his mother than his father. Luna's feature that Harry is always focusing on is her silver, moonlike, eyes. She's always maintaining deep eye contact with him. If the eyes are truly the windows of the soul, those two seem to find each other's souls fascinating.

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Eponine - Mar 8, 2005 5:01 pm (#720 of 1858)

Personally, I don't think that Neville trying to help Ginny when being confronted with the Inquisitorial Squad can be used as 'proof' for anything. Whether he sees Ginny as just a friend or as a potential girlfriend, Neville was not going to step back and watch while she was carried off by a Slytherin. Where in the books does it indicate that Neville sees Ginny as her own person? I'm not sure I recall that.

I simply don't see N/G at all. Ginny stands up for him, but she also has defended Harry (to Malfoy) and Hermione (to Kreacher). What do you base your theory on?

Harry may have forgotten the Riddle incident with Ginny, but you can't forget the rest of that scene as well. It's interesting to note that Ginny is the only person to whom he sincerely apologizes in Ootp. (At least I think she is, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

Honestly, shipping is a matter of opinion. Some interpret the books one way, and others see things from a completely different viewpoint. I sometimes wonder if we don't all have different copies. =) Agreeing to disagree is one of the most important things to remember in a discussion of this kind.

Edit: Marcus, I'm also slightly confused by your statement. What is it you're trying to say? More female fans than male fans, so no matter which way you look at it it's going to be more females on both sides?

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 8, 2005 5:18 pm (#721 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 8, 2005 4:19 pm
Close Eponine,

It may be my mistaken impression, but there seems to be more female posters at the forum than males. So therefore, you could take a poll and find that (for example) 24f/14m support H/G and 28f/13m opposes H/G.

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Weeny Owl - Mar 8, 2005 5:21 pm (#722 of 1858)

Catherine, I think what Marcus is saying is that if we have 100 members and half are for Ginny and Harry and the other half are opposed, you would still have more females than males because more females than males are members of the forum. So it would be something like: 50 for... 30 female and 20 male; 50 opposed...30 female and 20 male. Something like that, anyway. Or maybe not.

As for Harry forgetting what happened in second year as opposed to what happened in fifth year, there were three years in between the time Ginny was in the Chamber and when they had that conversation. There was a week, maybe, from when Sirius died to when he and Luna had their conversation.

Edit: I posted this about the same time Marcus posted his statement, but I won't delete the part I wrote about the division of members and their genders.

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 8, 2005 5:41 pm (#723 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Very good, Weeny. You explained myself better than I did. :-)

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Catherine - Mar 8, 2005 5:54 pm (#724 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Oh, OK.

I knew there was a logical answer in there somewhere, even if Weeny is explaining Marcus better than Marcus. Although Marcus explains pretty well when he decides the topic is deserving.

Ask on the Forum, and it shall be answered...it hasn't failed yet.

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 8, 2005 6:10 pm (#725 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Yes, it is settled. Catherine and Weeny agree with me.

Now about Pansy Parkinson...

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TGF - Mar 8, 2005 6:18 pm (#726 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I think most posters here are female as well. My experience is that most female Harry Potter fans are H/G, R/H shippers, while most male HP fans are H/He, R/SomeoneElse shippers (Marcus is a special case, what with his Pansy-ness). I imagine that one could make an interesting gender psychology analysis to explain why this would be.

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Eponine - Mar 8, 2005 6:20 pm (#727 of 1858)

Yes, about Pansy Parkinson... Marcus, I'm not sure if you ever answered my question from ages ago about her. So I'm going to ask it again.

According to several reports, one Miss Parkinson is not appearing in GoF. I know that the movies aren't canon, but they are a good indicator of what is more important in the long run. If the reports are true, then what would Pansy's nonappearance do to your theory, if it affects it in any way?

I'm quite interested in what you think about all this.

Edit: Sorry! I won't bring it up again on this thread. Marcus, I'm going to post another question on the GoF thread if you'd care to answer.

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S.E. Jones - Mar 8, 2005 6:38 pm (#728 of 1858)

Let it snow!
Let's please reserve the majority of movie discussion for the movie threads... i.e. let's just keep movie-related mentions to a minimum....

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 8, 2005 6:42 pm (#729 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 8, 2005 5:45 pm
How to explain Pansy not being in GoF.

Put yourself in the position of the Producers. You have the choice of showing Mr. Weasley blowing up the Dursley's living room, and Pansy not taunting Hermione about her buber-tubered hands. Which one do you think would make better cinema? I think it safe to say that they would choose the exploding fireplace over showing something that doesn't happen.

Well, they've cut the Dursley's completely out so they're not even going to show the exploding living room. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if Pansy doesn't show up.

Actually TGF, there are a number of H/P 'shippers.

EDIT: Oops, sorry S.E.. I posted before I saw your post. I agree. If people want to talk more about it, they can post over there.

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Solitaire - Mar 8, 2005 9:18 pm (#730 of 1858)

Well, I'm a woman, and I tend to be a Harry/Hermione 'shipper, if given my first choice. Their relationship reminds me a little of Jane Austen's Emma Woodhouse and Mr. Knightley in reverse.

Mr. Knightley is the voice of truth and reason in Emma's head, the one who tries to influence her to behave honorably by people. She is always most exasperated with him when she knows in her heart that he is right ... because that means she must admit her foolish behavior. I see the Harry/Hermione 'ship a bit like this. The times he is most annoyed with her are the times when he secretly knows she is right.

For years, Emma tends to ignore Mr. Knightley's cautions and do as she pleases. It is not until a series of events lead her to believe he may love her best friend that she realizes she loves him so deeply her own happiness depends on being first in his life. Given Jo's love of Austen, I think it is not unlikely she could do something like that ...

I only hope Jo does not take Draco and Hermione and turn them into a Darcy/Elizabeth, Pride-&-Prejudice thing. That would be ... well, I have no words to describe how horrible it would be. I have nothing against Ron and Hermione, except that they bicker too much for my liking. Arguing and bickering upset me--I've been known to quietly disappear from major family gatherings because of it--and I probably project my own feelings onto R/H. I couldn't exist in such an atmosphere. They, however, might thrive in it.

In truth, I do not actually dislike any of the other 'ships and will be perfectly happy if all of the people I'd like to see together wind up with others ... so long as they are all whole and happy. I suppose the Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione thing could be a bit much. Somehow, I just don't see Jo tying everything up with a big, happy, Weasley family bow. But I could be wrong, and I'll drink to their happiness if it happens!

Solitaire

edited

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Weeny Owl - Mar 8, 2005 9:22 pm (#731 of 1858)

I knew there was a logical answer in there somewhere, even if Weeny is explaining Marcus better than Marcus.

The question, Catherine, is should that make me afraid or make Marcus afraid?

Oddly enough, I have fewer problems having Harry with Pansy than I do having him with Hermione.

Part of that stems from Harry and Hermione's interactions in GoF and from him keeping things from her, getting annoyed by her nagging, and a few other things in OotP.

Harry flat-out stated to Mrs. Weasley that Hermione wasn't his girlfriend. He flat-out stated to Viktor Krum that he and Hermione weren't involved. I don't remember where I read it, but at one point in the distant past, there was a quote from JKR stating that the pairings were spelled out somewhat in GoF. Even if that isn't the case and I read something that was just a rumor, I still cannot picture Harry and Hermione being anything more than friends.

Edit for Solitaire: I only hope Jo does not take Draco and Hermione and turn them into a Darcy/Elizabeth, Pride-&-Prejudice thing.

She's already said that Draco and Hermione won't happen, and I rejoiced when I read that.

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TomProffitt - Mar 8, 2005 9:41 pm (#732 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Until Solitaire just posted an H/H 'ship I would have said that I thought it was more of an age division than a gender division with the H/H v H/G choice.

I would propose a thread specifically for gathering some data on the opinion, but I have my doubts the proctors would let it stand as a thread. (If y'all say it's okay I work up what info we ought to have on demographics and and word the question nicely) (I think I have time to handle that, of course this assumes our posters are willing to divulge age, gender, etc)

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 8, 2005 9:52 pm (#733 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 8, 2005 8:53 pm
I like to point to Harry/Hermione to prove Harry/Pansy. For the longest time, I was H/H all the way. But no matter how I pushed and shoved, it just never seems to fit. I really tried to make it work, but you come to a point that you just have to be honest with yourself and say, "This just isn't working!"

So I tried all the usual 'ships, including a few unusual ones like Harry/Fleur. They all sorta, kinda worked. But they never really fit perfectly. Something was always amiss. So I started suspecting Harry wasn't going to 'ship at all during his Hogwarts years.

Then I read again that famous ambiguous comment by Rowling about unusual pairings and I asked myself, "What is the most unlikely pairing?" I quickly thought of Pansy.

I didn't believe it for one second, so I started to try to disprove it. But the harder I tried to pick it apart, the stronger it became. After mulling it over for a week or two, and not finding any weaknesses, I presented it over on the "Harry's 'ship reuniting the Houses" thread.

The rest is history. I still haven't found a single weakness. The only thing preventing it from happening is Pansy needs to thaw. Once she does that, H/P makes the most thematic sense of all the 'ships.

But she has to thaw. That is why I am awaiting HBP with such fear and anticipation. If she doesn't at least start to thaw in that book, then this 'ship is not likely to sail.

I will say this, if it isn't H/P, then the most likely one is H/G. It is just that I have some problems with that one, as well.

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TomProffitt - Mar 8, 2005 10:00 pm (#734 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
Marcus, I probably ought to put this on your thread, but I'll put it here since you posted here.

The problem with H/H is like Jo's comment on Luna/Neville, the personalities aren't a good match for each other.

There are two problems with 'shipping Harry. We don't know Harry's interest and we don't know enough about many female students to know how good a match they are.

And frankly, we can't poke holes on your Harry/Pansy 'ship because you claim what little we know about Pansy will change. How many other characters would be obvious for Harry if they changed?

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S.E. Jones - Mar 8, 2005 10:11 pm (#735 of 1858)

Let it snow!
Solitaire: I only hope Jo does not take Draco and Hermione and turn them into a Darcy/Elizabeth, Pride-&-Prejudice thing.

Hm... I always saw Ron and Hermione as more the Darcy/Elizabeth equivalent than Draco and Hermione. As for couples that thrive in "bickering", you might consider that there is a difference between bickering and fighting. My parents, my grandparents, sheesh most the couples I know, like to pick at each other, say things that make the other yell, but both sides know straight out that it isn't meant to hurt and that the other really loves them no matter how much they protest. It's almost become a bit of a secret inside joke between my parents. For instance, my dad kept complaining about his lack of work shirts so my mom bought an entire box full and gave them to him on his birthday. His response was, "Hm, there all the same color....". He then quickly turned and winked at all of us while my mom ranted at him for a while. But trust me, she likes pushing his buttons as much as he likes pushing hers....

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TGF - Mar 8, 2005 10:19 pm (#736 of 1858)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
"Well, I'm a woman, and I tend to be a Harry/Hermione 'shipper, if given my first choice. Their relationship reminds me a little of Jane Austen's Emma Woodhouse and Mr. Knightley in reverse."

Well, I didn't say 'men are from H/H, women are from R/H' Razz. Rather, I said 'most'... There are obviously going to be exceptions to the rule, but the *general* trend I've observed in the HP community is that males are for H/H and females are for R/H... Age I don't think has much to do with shipping preferences. Younger people tend to simply be a bit more zealous about their particular favourites, but that's just part of being young.

"The only thing preventing it from happening is Pansy needs to thaw."

That would be the main problem with Pansy. Pansy has never had any sort of meaningful character development in five books... she's pretty much a stranger to both Harry and readers. We get a few scenes with her here and there, with her being generally painted in a negative light (I may be wrong about that, as I'm willing to guess you've read those Pansy scenes a bit more dilligently than I), but that's about it. If she's to get together with Harry, I would have expected there to have been at least ONE meaningful conversation of any sort between the two by now. She'll have to be hyper-developed in the next two books in order to become a credible partner for Harry, and I really don't see that happening. It's plain awkward from a literary perspective to abruptly give what was a consistently minor character such an important role in the last two books of a series, and I just don't see Rowling doing it.

That said, I will give you a LOT of credit if you turn out to be right, as you've been arguing for Pansy for a very long time.

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Solitaire - Mar 8, 2005 10:23 pm (#737 of 1858)

S.E. Jones, as a teacher who has had 19 years of experience with adolescents, I am well aware of the shades of difference among bickering, picking, and fighting. I do not particularly like any of the above. I find them petty and annoying.

There may well be individuals and entire families who gain a perverse enjoyment from such pastimes. Count me out. I've seen too much of it among family and friends--I won't even get into what I see daily among students--to make it endearing.

Solitaire

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S.E. Jones - Mar 8, 2005 10:37 pm (#738 of 1858)

Let it snow!
Solitaire: ...as a teacher who has had 19 years of experience with adolescents, I am well aware of the shades of difference among bickering, picking, and fighting...... There may well be individuals and entire families who gain a perverse enjoyment from such pastimes.

Again, though, there is a difference between bickering, or what I prefer to call a good poke in the ribs, and fighting. What you describe above seems to be things done maliciously, to annoy or hurt. What my parents do has more to do with their sarcastic sense of humor. I ashure you, there is no "perverse enjoyment" in it (and I'm trying not to take offense at that). It's just two people having fun with their own sort of joke. I mean, I've seen my dad complain about how many flowers my mom buys and then go right behind her back and conspire to buy two huge planters full of mums for her birthday. They sort of play at each other, and though it can be a bit childish, it's always obvious they're kidding and that they each know it. There is a big difference between the annoying things that teens do to each other and what conspires between two people who love each other and just want the challenge....

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Solitaire - Mar 8, 2005 11:01 pm (#739 of 1858)

You must trust me ... I know exactly what you mean. Also, I do not consider what you are describing to be bickering ... or even picking. I've observed a close family friend "henpeck" her husband my entire life. Everything she says is no doubt well-intentioned. It is also annoying as heck. If I were her husband, I'd leave. Additionally, I have a sister who loves to "help" and "make suggestions" to me and others in our family. She has no idea how close she has often come to needing a full set of dentures.

My interpretation of what I see Ron and Hermione do is more like our friends and my sister than your parents ... and I hate it.

Solitaire

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Prefect Marcus - Mar 8, 2005 11:48 pm (#740 of 1858)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 8, 2005 10:49 pm
TomProffitt - And frankly, we can't poke holes on your Harry/Pansy 'ship because you claim what little we know about Pansy will change.

No, that is not quite right. H/P 'shippers claim that the main thing about her that will change is her antagonism towards Harry. This will in turn cause her to regret her lashing out at him and his friends.

If you look beyond her antagonism towards Harry and his friends in the last five books, you catch some fascinating glimpses of a remarkable young lady.

For example, we know that she is distressed when someone is physically hurt. We've seen this at least twice; once in PoA, again in GoF.

She is very popular within her house. She is extremely loyal to her friends and to her house.

Leadership comes naturally to her. She was a leader amongst her peers long before becoming a prefect. Once she became a prefect, and later as a member of the Inquisitoral Squad, she never once abused her authority.

She is been shown several times to have a definite feminine side. She enjoys very feminine clothes and takes a delight in cute things.

Is she a looker? Well, she has been described by the narrator (though strangely not by Harry) as "Pug-faced". But let's be honest. Does anyone actually believe that Draco would be seen at the big international dance with an ugly girl? Not Draco.

The archived "Pansy Parkinson" thread covers these and other points in far more detail, if you are interested.

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frogface - Mar 9, 2005 4:57 am (#741 of 1858)

Well shes never been seen to abuse her authority as a Inquisitorial Squad member, but that doesn't mean she hasn't. Also as a prefect she was perfectly happy to stand by and watch Draco bully younger students when they arrived at Hogwarts at the begginning of their fifth year. Although she isn't necessarily taking part in the bullying herself, standing by and letting it happen is a form of abusing her authority in my opinion. She doesn't come across as misunderstood to me, I admire your theory and the way you constantly argue for it without degenerating into petty bickering, but I can't say I buy it. As for me I'm a R/Hr H/G shipper and I'm male so there clearly are exceptions.

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Catherine - Mar 9, 2005 5:56 am (#742 of 1858)

Canon Seeker
Like S.E. Jones, I also see Ron/Hermione as the JKR "equivalent" to Austen's Darcy/Elizabeth.

I also come from a family of "fake bickerers," where the poke in the ribs is delivered tongue-in-cheek and with a wink of the eye. :::Pokes S.E. Jones in the ribs here!::: Verbal banter and the subtle underpinnings make Austen and JKR's works so enjoyable for me. I enjoy it in "real life" also; it's one reason why the Forum can be so much fun!

So Ron and Hermione don't "bother" me in that they "bicker." I see this behavior as ways that they challenge one another, and appreciate one another. As characters, I find their relationship infinitely more interesting than I would if all we saw was them whispering sweet nothings into one another's ears and snogging under a confetti-tossing Cupid.

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coolbeans3131 - Mar 9, 2005 7:30 am (#743 of 1858)

Well, I'm a H/H shipper, 34 years old and a woman. I also, like Solitaire, hate bickering. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but I really dislike it. I don't like R and Hr's bickering, especially the way Hermione talks to Ron. It's anything but romantic to me.

That's not why I'm a H/H shipper however. I thought it would be R/H up through GoF. I didn't ship them, but thought it would happen. H/H never even crossed my mind until OotP. I got it on my first read through. I wasn't online then, so I wasn't influenced by anyone. It just dawned on me then and has only become clearer and more certain for me as time has passed. It's as obvious to me as R/H is for R/H shippers.

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TomProffitt - Mar 9, 2005 8:45 am (#744 of 1858)

Bullheaded empiricist
I can't stand bickering myself, but I have seen enough of it to know that others can enjoy it.

I think there might be a difference between being an active participant and having to endure other people doing it. I don't mind exchanging a few verbal jabs with someone, but I hate listening to folks go at it.

Yeah, I can see how Ron & Hermione can get along like that. And, no, I don't see how Harry could stand Hermione's bossiness and mothering. I think Hermione's a much better fit for Ron than Harry.

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Czarina II - Mar 9, 2005 9:21 am (#745 of 1858)

I also agree that Hermione's behaviour is much better suited for Ron than Harry. (Oh, and for the age/gender record: 19/F)

Hermione may strike many of us as annoying, but that is just her personality. It isn't going to change very much except with time (and I mean decades, not months). I think I would keep Hermione as an arm's-length friend were I at Hogwarts. Harry and Ron, however, are her best friends, so they deal with Hermione is different ways.

Harry is used to taking orders, initially from the Dursleys, and now from professors and friends at school. It is not something he likes, so even Hermione's good intentions fall on deaf ears. He just complies or ignores her or both. Good for a romantic relationship? Absolutely not. ("Yes dear, of course dear, whatever you say dear, just leave me alone." Not exactly good.)

Ron, on the other hand, is used to dealing with loving parents who mean well, if a bit annoying and overprotective (Molly especially), and with a passel of brothers who tease, as well as his sister. He uses humour to deflect Hermione's orders. Would that change? Probably not. Ron will mature, but he will still have a sense of humour. Both he and Hermione seem to enjoy arguing. Neither of them are nasty about it. It annoys Harry because bickering does not mesh with his personality, much as (for example) I find excessive giggling and squealing on the part of my neighbours rather annoying. Harry would make Hermione more uptight, Ron would make her less overbearing.

Anyhow, I think that in the long run, Hermione and Ron are better suited for each other.

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S.E. Jones - Mar 9, 2005 9:59 am (#746 of 1858)

Let it snow!
Hm... Perhaps I should have used the term "teasing" instead of "bickering"....

Oh, and poke in the ribs duly appreciated, Catherine...

I think that is an excellent description for the personality conflicts, Czarina.

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Pat Franz - Mar 9, 2005 11:29 am (#747 of 1858)

Chief Hit Wizard
This is my first post on this thread because generally I enjoy debating theories derived from cannon with pretty straightforward facts (ex: the time travel debate) but it is incredibly interesting on this thread how so many people can read so many different ways into the same events in the books. Which I suppose is really a testament to the diversity of this forum and a supremely good thing.

One of the arguments that I find the most interesting is Prefect Marcus's argument for Harry/Pansy. I won't debate the thematic issues of this "ship" as this isn't the correct thread and I happen to agree with them for the most part. But your recent post (#740) listing the "known" virtues of Pansy seems full of logical holes to me.

Pansy is "remarkable" because she is distressed when one of her friends gets injured? To me it would seem that should be, and is, the norm for Hogwarts students. In fact it would be remarkable if she was NOT distressed.

The statement about her being a "natural leader" seems unsubstantiated as we are never shown this. Yes, she is a prefect, but, so is Ron. Ron has not been shown to be a natural leader. And do we even know why Snape chooses his prefects? No. Draco may lead some slytherins, but is he a natural leader or do they follow him because of his father's name? And if she is a leader in the same vein as Draco is that really a positive characteristic? Also, as someone said before, because we are not shown examples of her doing so, does not even remotely mean "she has not once abused her authority." We have not been shown her bathing once in the books, but does that PROVE she has not?

Popularity in, and loyalty to a house that Harry loathes wouldn't exactly endear him to a girl. Granted for your "Uniting" theory it helps, but for simple attraction and "remarkableness" they are not positive traits.

Lastly a girl with a feminine side is in no way remarkable or distiguishing. Especially for a girl with a "pug face". And just because Draco might not find her ugly does not preclude Harry from finding her so.

I am not trying to be antagonistic or trying to disprove the H/P theory. But your list of reasons for her being "Fascinating and remarkable" seemed to be skewed representaions of canon conjecture and I felt that I had to rebut.

Later, Pat Franz

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Morgan Champion - Mar 9, 2005 1:27 pm (#748 of 1858)

As I've stated before,I tend to support a Harry/Ginny relationship,and I'm definitely male.

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Muggle Doctor - Mar 9, 2005 2:23 pm (#749 of 1858)

Support for Harry/Hermione shippers (which is odd because I don't back this ship...):

PS/SS: In the final adventure, Ron retires injured, Hermione turns back to help him and to alert Dumbledore, Harry fights on alone.

CoS: Hermione is hors de combat, frozen by the basilisk. Harry and Ron go to rescue Ginny (Lockhart doesn't really count) and Harry, cut off from Ron by a rock fall, fights on alone (plus Fawkes, of course).

PoA: Ron is hors de combat with a busted leg: Harry and Hermione free Buckbeak and rescue Sirius together, and return together to the sickbay at the end.

GoF: Harry is on his own, with very good plot reasons why Ron & Hermione don't take part. Although in this case Harry's valiant fight is not the last exciting thing in the book (Crouch Jr, the train fight), the important battle (versus Voldemort in the graveyard) is essentially Harry's alone.

OotP: One by one, the magnificent six are whittled down, with Harry and Neville alone at the end. Harry, however, breaks away to confront Bellatrix. So once again, Harry is alone for the last battle (I don't count the train fight.)

Out of five books so far, Hermione is the only one who is by Harry's side right to the end of any of his trials. I wonder if this is significant.

That is not to minimise the importance of the increasing number of people who choose to stand beside him - Ron, Ginny, the twins, Neville, Luna, Hermione, the DA members who defended him on the train (the hard core of the DA, if you ask me, along with those who went to the Ministry) and the Order members who took Vernon Dursley down a few pegs. These are the people who stand by Harry out of love, whether this is deep friendship (as in Ron & Hermione's case), parental-like concern (e.g. Remus, now that Sirius is gone) or comradeship in the fight against Voldemort (Moody, Tonks etc.).

I have not put Dumbledore on this list for one good reason: although it is clear that he loves Harry in a pseudo-paternal sense, he is in the awful position of knowing that Harry is his one and only useful weapon against Voldemort, and that he must use that weapon whatever the cost. It must break Dumbledore's heart. I think if Voldemort ends up killing him, it might even be a blessed release.

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Joanne R. Reid - Mar 9, 2005 8:32 pm (#750 of 1858)

Hi,

First, a quick explanation. If you take a writing class of any kind, sooner or later you'll have to write something original. Everyone is told to begin by describing the scene. Novice writers take these instructions to heart. They go into excrutiating detail. That's when the thing about the gun comes up. And, it's not my idea. It's a really famous type person who teaches acting or play writing or something like that professionally, and one of these days I remember to look it up.

Anyhoo.... I come from a relatively largish family. Nine of us gathered around the table every night. Dad was also from a large family, and we learned from him. It was a noisy, raucous meal with lots of laughter and tons of good-natured ribbing.

We learned to "protect" our food, else a brother or sister would spear something off your plate.

You never asked anyone to pass the whatever. If you did, the nearest person would grab it and shout "Short Stop!". They would then help themselves and send the bowl the long way around the table. Each person, in turn, would shout "Short Stop!", before passing the whatever. By the time it arrived, the dish was inavariably empty. That's why we adopted the "One Foot Rule". As in pool, you could reach and grab as long as one foot was still on the floor.

Our household was noisy and to the outsider it resembled Bedlam. We shouted, ran, teased and joked. We also played pranks on each other. They weren't so-called practical jokes. However, if it got a laugh, it was generally acceptable.

I preface my remarks with these anecdotes to emphasize the huge difference I perceive between Ron and Hermione. Ron is used to the raucous free-for-all of a large family. Hermione is an only child, as is Harry. Harry is used to being tortured. Hermione is spoiled. She's trying really hard to fit into a huge community, while retaining her sense of self. She's not used to the normal in-fighting of a large family. But, she's learning.

Give her and Ron a little more time to work things out, and they'll make a great team. I don't know if it'll every get beyond the high-school romance stage. But, I've known many couples who are just like the Battling Bickersons, and have been for many decades.

And, I think, that Hermione would add a lot of stability to Ron's life, which he sorely needs.

Anyway, it's my story and I'm stuck with it.

Thanks,

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