Severus Snape

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Post  Mona on Wed May 25, 2011 2:48 pm

Gina R Snape - Feb 20, 2005 6:02 pm (#1201 of 2980)
I don't think Snape is completely lacking in a sense of fun. Just not a childish sort of innocent fun.

But indeed, something in the middle between the two would be an ideal. But the wizarding world is far from ideal.


Solitaire - Feb 20, 2005 7:49 pm (#1202 of 2980)
Hagrid loves, idolizes, idealizes, and worships Dumbledore. I believe Snape respects him. There is a big difference. Hagrid sees the powerful, magnanimous Wizard whose abilities and greatness far surpass his own; Snape sees not only the Wizard but the fallible human being.

Both Snape and Hagrid are beneficiaries of Dumbledore's forgiveness and second chances, yet their expressions of gratitude are very different. Hagrid never did anything wrong; he was only accused of it. Yet he loves Dumbledore for rescuing him and making a place for him at Hogwarts. Snape was apparently a full-fledged Death Eater who received the Mark. Whatever he did under the auspices of Voldemort, Dumbledore accepted him and made a place for him at Hogwarts. Yet no such apparent gratitude overflows from Snape. He is far too repressed.

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Feb 20, 2005 8:12 pm (#1203 of 2980)
Snape definitely needs to keep his cards close to his vest because he knows his position is precarious.

Hagrid does have a free way of expressing himself, doing what he wants and feels he needs to, and even did magic in front of Harry with the stipulation that Harry not tell anyone.

I doubt if Snape would ever feel free enough to practice magic in front of someone who could possibly get him in trouble, even if that someone liked him.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 20, 2005 9:04 pm (#1204 of 2980)
"Snape on the other hand seems as if he has been grown up forever."

Oh my goodness, Choices, thank you very much for the tears of laughter!

At the risk of being a grammer editor, Snape and grownup do not belong in the same sentence!

...toddles off amid peals of laughter!...


Gina R Snape - Feb 20, 2005 9:39 pm (#1205 of 2980)
I think Snape has carried a degree of pain and sorrow we don't customarily think children have. We've never seen images of Snape's childhood where he was free and happy and enjoying his childhood. He may not always appear the most mature to some, but certainly he does not envoke images of playful childishness.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 20, 2005 9:51 pm (#1206 of 2980)
"playful childishness". My point exactly! Thank you for clarifying that.

Edited for clarity: He does play childish games. Even playful I agree with to an extent, he is playing games in his mind, carrying the baggage of hate and resentment. Playing games is another way of saying "role playing". He's playing the role, over and over as the years go by, of a childish game he can't release.

Is my take anyway... take it however...is just my opinion.


Solitaire - Feb 20, 2005 10:15 pm (#1207 of 2980)
I think Snape has carried a degree of pain and sorrow we don't customarily think children have. We've never seen images of Snape's childhood where he was free and happy and enjoying his childhood.

Interesting comment. One would think that, if he truly did experience a childhood full of pain, he would be more compassionate and understanding toward Harry and Neville, who have also suffered grievously--unless, of course, he is the sort of person who thinks no one has suffered but himself.

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Feb 20, 2005 11:50 pm (#1208 of 2980)
It could be that, if he really did experience a horrid childhood, he thinks that's how all children are treated. Certainly he never learned otherwise at Hogwarts, at least that we know of.

Dumbledore might have been forgiving in Snape's adulthood, but he still allowed other students to nearly cause Snape's death or transformation into a werewolf. If the headmaster is willing to allow a group of students to do something that bad, why should Snape care if other students are picked on? They're not about to become werewolves or die, so why should they be whining? That isn't to say that I feel that way, but I didn't experience what Snape has.


Delightful Task! - Feb 21, 2005 3:27 am (#1209 of 2980)
He does play childish games. Even playful I agree with to an extent, he is playing games in his mind, carrying the baggage of hate and resentment. Playing games is another way of saying "role playing". He's playing the role, over and over as the years go by, of a childish game he can't release.

I agree, TwinklingBlueEyes, I think Snape is stuck somewhere in the past and can't move forward... just like Sirius was, by the way. ( James was able to grow up, and lily too. They chose to become parents and died for their child)

Snape's only way of feeling adult is through power and cruelty. That's the only kind of relationship they can establish with others. Some people who suffered a lot do that, especially those who lost loved ones. They actually feel that if the start loving someone again , they will lose them. Being tyrannic and cruel towards the others is a way of protecting oneself from life. Because when they feel someone likes them, they feel threatened and don't want to suffer again. It takes a lot of patience to tame them; a lot of love, and suffering and forgiving... And I know people who never succeeded.

That's why Snape doesn't show any gratitude to Dumbledore... I think he considers himself superior to DD. If only because He-Snape doesn't let his feelings interfere with his decisions. (or so he thinks!)


Ann - Feb 21, 2005 4:59 am (#1210 of 2980)
Again, I think we are looking at what Snape says rather than what he does. He doesn't agree with all Dumbledore's decisions, and when he doesn't, he argues with him. Does that really show ingratitude? I don't think Dumbledore would see it that way--and in fact, the one time we see such arguments, in PoA, Snape is right about Lupin to some extent: Lupin hasn't told Dumbledore that Sirius is an animagus, which would explain how Sirius is getting into Hogwarts. The fact that Sirius turns out not to be as dangerous as everyone thought sort of obscures that.

But, after doing his best to convince Dumbledore of his own opinion, Snape does what Dumbledore tells him. And he is clearly a brave and effective spy. Jo is just using his snarky comments to distract us from the nobility of what he actually does.


Choices - Feb 21, 2005 9:32 am (#1211 of 2980)
Post #1205 - Gina - Thanks, you said it better than I did. I did not mean that Snape is "grown-up" in the sense of being mature - I just meant that I can not picture him as a child - playing, happy and fun loving. I think he probably had to "grow-up" too fast and never had a chance to be a carefree kid. Naturally this has affected him as an adult.


Gina R Snape - Feb 21, 2005 9:58 am (#1212 of 2980)
Ann: Jo is just using his snarky comments to distract us from the nobility of what he actually does.

Oh, well put Ann!!!

I can understand some people not liking Snape's personality. But I still find it hard to believe, after 5 books of proof, that people ignore his deeds. It's no wonder he seems so unhappy. Forever underappreciated, Severus.


hellocello3200 - Feb 21, 2005 10:19 am (#1213 of 2980)
I do think being under appreciated might be part of the problem. I hope that for the sake of future students, he distinguishes himself somehow in the coming conflict and gets a bit of hero worship from incoming firsts years. I think he wouldn't try so hard to scare students if they already thought of him as a bit of a legend.

I think the fact that James, someone Snape sees as only bad, is glorified as a hero for dying for Harry, really bothers him. I think we might see the same thing happen with Sirius. Snape will think that he disobeyed orders and acted foolishly, while everyone else will only talk about how wonderful and brave he was.


septentrion - Feb 21, 2005 11:38 am (#1214 of 2980)
if they already thought of him as a bit of a legend

well, he's already a bit of a legend, isn't he ?

On another note, I think Snape can disobey orders (didn't he disobey LV when he turned spy for the order ?) when necessary but he seems to trust DD so much, he certainly had so many proofs it was better to follow what DD said, that we've never seen him act another way.


Detail Seeker - Feb 21, 2005 1:33 pm (#1215 of 2980)
One might ask, if praise is the right way to show gratitude. Especially, as I would assess Dumbledore as someone, whose attitude to praise would be like Nietzsche´s saying:

A disappointed person says: "I was hoping for response - and all I got was praise"

Good friends do openy tell, what they think to be right, even if it is in opposition to their friend. That is what makes a friend valuable. This way I see Snape working with Dumbledore.


Gina R Snape - Feb 21, 2005 3:29 pm (#1216 of 2980)
I agree, Detail Seeker. Dumbledore wants his plans to work, but he does not want to be surrounded by 'yes men.' He'll know his team's strengths and faults better if they are honest and not just trying to please him.


Delightful Task! - Feb 22, 2005 5:47 am (#1217 of 2980)
Well, I think Snape is far too intelligent to obey orders! He listens to what people demand from him, and sees if it corresponds to his own vision of what is right or wrong... Do we know if he ever did something Dumbledore had asked him to do, thinking it was stupid or foolish?... Actually, I'm not sure DD really "gives orders" to the Members of the OoP. And anyway, he had asked Snape to give Harry occlumency lessons and yet Snape stopped teaching Harry when it displeased him! Moreover, Detail Seeker, I don't see DD and Snape as friends. They respect each other. DD is able to see the good part of Snape, he knows his qualities (technical as well as moral ) and accepts his flaws. Snape admires DD because he knows he's facing the greatest wizard of his time, and he knows what he's talking about because he first thought it was Voldemort he had to admire. But I think he doesn't understand the "playful" part of his personality. He admits DD is superior to him, but will always think there's one part of him which is better than DD... But then again, this implies we believe Snape is only serving one master, and that this master is Dumbledore!


Solitaire - Feb 22, 2005 7:25 am (#1218 of 2980)
this implies we believe Snape is only serving one master, and that this master is Dumbledore

Some may believe this. Others may believe the only real master Snape serves is himself. As long as his path and Dumbledore's seem to converge, I agree that he will probably do as Dumbledore asks. However, I do not believe Snape will allow Dumbledore's goals to override his own--whatever those may be. If need be, he will go it alone.

I believe Snape respects Dumbledore. I do not, however, believe he admires him. I think admiration is not in Snape's character.

Solitaire


Delightful Task! - Feb 22, 2005 8:06 am (#1219 of 2980)
Well... If he doesn't admire people, then can't we say he admires their skills? or the power they gain thanks to them? He's attracted by greatness I think, and that's part of what led him to Voldemort then DD. I think he wants to be valued by people he considers as great.


Emiko - Feb 22, 2005 9:45 pm (#1220 of 2980)
Solatire, I rather agree with you. Snape RESPECTS people, he gives credit where it's due (he can even manage to do so with Harry, barely- I'm thinking during occulemency lessons), but admiration indirectly implies wanting to imitate, and I think Snape would rather die than be like DD or anyone else he respects.


septentrion - Feb 26, 2005 1:22 pm (#1221 of 2980)
According to a news in mugglenet, we should know why DD trusts Snape in HBP. I hope this isn't a fake spoiler !

Here is the text of the news : Something huge still to be revealed about Lily in HBP A MuggleNet reader who is the librarian at her daughter's school today received a copy of the "Publishers Quality Library Service" catalog. She said there is an ad in it for pre-ordering copies of Book 6 that says: "With something huge revealed about Lily Potter, the truth about why Dumbledore trusts Snape, and a little romance for Harry, this promises to be one of his best years at Hogwarts yet." Thanks, Mire!


Gina R Snape - Feb 26, 2005 2:22 pm (#1222 of 2980)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Must know now!

NOW!

NOOOOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!

:resumes composure:


Catherine - Feb 27, 2005 9:42 am (#1223 of 2980)

*takes a whiff of the smelling salts and passes them to Gina in case she's overcome once more **

It would be wonderful if that "spoiler" isn't just wishful thinking. More than almost anything else, I want to know why Dumbledore trusts Snape. It would be such a let-down if the reason is that Dumbledore is a good enough Legilmens to overcome Snape's skills in Occlumency. I can't imagine that is the reason.

So, I'm hoping for a really great piece of information. I want it NOW!!! **waves to Gina**


Gina R Snape - Feb 27, 2005 12:43 pm (#1224 of 2980)
Heh, heh. **waves back**

I think what will make it interesting is if we learn a)WHY he changed sides; b)WHAT he did that put him at great personal risk; and c)HOW he manages to cunningly stay alive.


Solitaire - Feb 27, 2005 3:31 pm (#1225 of 2980)
I hate to say it, but that sounds like some rewording of information that has been posted on the Mugglenet site for months, on the Random Facts page.

Regarding the Snape info, here is the quote from the list: In books 6 and 7 we will find out why Dumbledore trusts Snape. That sounds to me like the information will be dragged out over Books 6 & 7 and not revealed fully in Book 6. Just my take ...

Solitaire


Potions Mistress - Feb 27, 2005 4:36 pm (#1226 of 2980)
Regarding the Snape info, here is the quote from the list: In books 6 and 7 we will find out why Dumbledore trusts Snape. That sounds to me like the information will be dragged out over Books 6 & 7 and not revealed fully in Book 6.--Solitaire

Ugh...I hope not. If so, I'll probably do what our dear Gina did and pitch a fit about wanting to know it all NOW, NOW, NOW!

~pm


Winky - Feb 27, 2005 5:45 pm (#1227 of 2980)
I honestly think that what he did to put himself at great personal risk is him being a spy against Voldermort. I mean he is in the inner circle of his most trustful death eaters. Can you imagine what would happen to Snape if they found out he was siding with DD. I don't want to think about what they would do before they killed him.


Gina R Snape - Feb 27, 2005 6:36 pm (#1228 of 2980)
Oh, yes Winky. I think that's a big part of it. But it would be terrific to get *details* on it. To know exactly what he's been up to would be thrilling and add another layer.

Merlin's beard, 138 days never felt so long!!!!


Denise P. - Mar 1, 2005 7:48 am (#1229 of 2980)
Please don't post spoilers on the Forum. Even though it has been debunked, we have members that don't even want to see the cover art prior to the book being released. Any information on the upcoming book should be confined to the HBP thread.


Prisoner of Rowling - Mar 1, 2005 8:55 am (#1230 of 2980)
I am sure I cannot have been the first to discover this little titbit of information. It may just be coincidence, but was anybody aware that there was a Roman Emperor by the name of LUCIUS Septimius SEVERUS who had an enemy by the name of Alb(in)us? Surely this cannot be coincidence knowing JKR's fondness of researching historical people and events and using reference to them? Is it a clue or just coincidence?


Choices - Mar 1, 2005 10:02 am (#1231 of 2980)
Very interesting Prisoner - I have not seen that information before. Thanks for posting it.


Delightful Task! - Mar 2, 2005 3:20 am (#1232 of 2980)
After reading the book twice, I had never imagined Snape could be a vampire... and then I discovered the lexicon... and mmmmm....

I've read the series once more and, I'm not so sure this is far-fetched now! At least, if he isn't a vampire or half-vampire (can you be half vampire by the way? or do you drink half blood when you're half vampire?!)

But, just to share with you, if Snape is indeed a vampire then this scene is wonderful: Goblet of Fire, chapter 35 _ Veritaserum .

"Snape followed him [Dumbledore], looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room"...

This is the kind of sentences that drives me crazy!!! If Snape is a vampire, he shouldn't see his reflection, but this is no normal looking-glass... Seeing Snape's reflection in the foe glass should make us feel sure that he is true to Dumbledore, but we know there's one thing Barty Crouch Junior hates more than any other, it's a Death Eater who walked free...

Anyway, Snape is the only one who looks at himself in the mirror... Which makes me feel he is surprised to see himself there. But once again, JKR might be misleading me on purpose!


Choices - Mar 2, 2005 9:26 am (#1233 of 2980)
Delightful Task - It's enough to drive you mad isn't it? So may possibilities, so few real answers. Vampires can't see their reflections, but the foe-glass isn't an ordinary mirror. Why does Snape alone look into the glass at his reflection? Is he, in particular, Barty, Jr.'s foe - a DE who walked free? Or is there some other reason? Arrggghhhh! Hurry up JKR - We want answers!!!!


Prefect Marcus - Mar 2, 2005 9:53 am (#1234 of 2980)
The reason I think Rowling mentions Snape looking in the foe-glass is to emphasize in a quiet way that he is the foe of Pseudo-Moody. In other words, he has NOT returned to Voldemort.


Delightful Task! - Mar 2, 2005 10:23 am (#1235 of 2980)
You're certainly right, Prefect Marcus, but there's no way to prove it yet!!! And it's far too simple for someone who's been re-reading the series for the hundredth time... ! If Snape isn't a vampire, anyway, I'm now sure JKR has wanted us to believe he is for 5 books!!! So many hints it drives me crazy! Arrghhhh!


Prefect Marcus - Mar 2, 2005 11:51 am (#1236 of 2980)
I also have difficulty with the theory that Snape was in the Graveyard. What purpose does it serve?

Put yourself in Voldemort's shoes if Snape had shown up at the Graveyard. Voldemort has staged this whole thing to re-establish his control over his less-than-faithful followers. He has just seen his big finale go up in smoke in front of said wavering followers. He is livid, and desperate to recover from this set-back. His eyes fall upon Severus Snape.

Wait a minute. Isn't this the turncoat from thirteen years ago? Isn't this the man who has shown unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore all these years. Isn't there a major happening at Hogwarts that requires Snape's presence going on RIGHT AT THIS VERY MOMENT? What in blazes is Snape doing here? How did he slip away so easily? Even if he was loyal, how stupid can you get? Disappearing at the exact same moment that Harry Potter disappears. What would that look like?

Voldemort would have been looking around for a scapegoat for that night's disaster. I wouldn't give two knuts on Snape's chances of survival if he had been there that night.

So I think Snape (after Dumbledore asked him to) went back to Voldemort pleading that (a)he has just been biding his time gaining Dumbledore's trust, and (b)he couldn't slip away with all the eyes of the Wizarding World on the finale of the TriWizarding Tournament. It all makes perfect sense.

Does Voldemort completely trust Snape? Not a chance. Voldemort doesn't completely trust anyone, least of all someone who has been deep in with Dumbledore for the past 13 years. But until it is obvious that Snape is more of a liability than an asset, Voldemort is going to let him live.

Another reason to doubt that Snape was at the Graveyard is why didn't Snape say so in the hospital wing when he showed Fudge his Deathmark? Admitting that he has seen Voldemort that very night could hardly have been any worse that showing the Deathmark.


The Weaslys - Mar 2, 2005 2:14 pm (#1237 of 2980)
We did our homework this time and read all of the most recent posts so we wouldn't beat a dead thread. All this Snape talk is fascinating and downright amusing when it comes to refering to Gina and her hubby! Is it my imagination or do you all pick on her just a little bit? Anyway, why does everyone have DD killed off already? I know there is a valid point to having him die......I don't like it, though, so I would like to give JKR the benefit of the doubt that maybe she won't kill him off. Just suppose she does...would it be completely impossible to think that with DD dead Harry would then have to rely on Snape? And that perhaps we will see a side of Snape not yet imagined( by anyone but Gina perhaps).(Mom just couldn't resist saying that;) We have taken a vote and think that IF Snape was at the graveyard Voldy didn't know he was there.His pale appearance and the timeline, etc that have already been mentioned makes more sense if one thinks that the first time to come face to face with Voldy is after DD sends him off wishing him good luck. DD would not have known where the portkey took Harry. Maybe Snape, having heeded the mark, is so good at Occlumency that he just spies on Voldy from a distance and never actually joins the circle of DEs. But isn't it a stretch to think that Snape could just watch this whole scene transpire and not do anything to help Harry? Like send up distracting flares or something?? Unless he is truly not on DD's side.....or just not there. That's all, folks!


Albus Silente - Mar 2, 2005 2:23 pm (#1238 of 2980)

This is posted also on the Death Eaters thread, but I think it's better posted here.

...it was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as though a friend was speaking in his ear...
Don't break the connection. (Bloomsbury, pg. 576- Priori Incantatem)

We know that Snape is a quite skilled Legilimens, we know Dumbledore trusts Snape, we know he was a DE, we know time-turners exist. It is not yet sure that Snape wasn't at the Rebirthing Party. What if the "friend speaking in his ear" was the masked Snape putting the "Don't break the connection" into Harry's mind by Legilimency? Even if LV was more skilled than Snape, he already had too much to struggle with than listening to other people's thoughts. Harry instead in the chaos might not have been aware that the voice was Snape's and took it for a voice from somewhere or even Dumbledore's of Fawkes'.


Delightful Task! - Mar 2, 2005 2:52 pm (#1239 of 2980)
I suppose it's possible, Albus Silente, or if Snape is a vampire, he might have been a bat hovering above the scene... or he is a vampire who turns into a phoenix... (nah, that doesn't make sense! )

I think the sound Harry associates with DD is Fawkes's song though... and this sound is also connected to Godric Gryffindor, according to me...

Anyway, I don't imagine Harry, hearing Snape's voice, would associate it with the voice of a friend... I'm not sure, in fact that the passage means Harry really hears a voice and clear words, but I don't have the book with me. From what you quote here Albus silente, I would imagine it's Harry's interpretation of the sound he's hearing... And I really don't imagine Snape singing like a phoenix!


Prefect Marcus - Mar 2, 2005 2:55 pm (#1240 of 2980)
If Snape was inclined to sit back and let Harry get hung out to dry by Fudge, why did he show Fudge the Deathmark in the first place? If he was just hanging around the Graveyard observing what was going on, why didn't he say so to Fudge? Snape shows Fudge his Deathmark to prove that Voldemort is back, but doesn't tell him that he is an eyewitness to his return to life? To what end?

If Snape had been there and had heard Voldemort name Malfoy, why would he react to Harry's naming him? If he had been there, the reaction would have been at Harry's announcement that he was going to name names, not at the revealation of Lucius Malfoy's name. Snape would have already knew whose names were coming. So why the reaction?

I am sorry. Having Snape at the Graveyard causes far too many convoluted twists for my tastes.


Delightful Task! - Mar 2, 2005 2:59 pm (#1241 of 2980)
I agree with you Prefect Marcus... And that moment you refer to _ Snape's reaction at Malfoy's name being mentioned _ really puzzles me... Why should Snape be surprised to hear that name? Once again, I can't find any answer...


The Weaslys - Mar 2, 2005 3:08 pm (#1242 of 2980)
It seems like a stretch to put Fawkes at the rebirthing party. DD would not have known where to send him and would he have known where to go on his own? The song probably occurs when the wands interact because they both have one of Fawkes' feathers inside and that is why they hear the song.

It's kind of a cool idea that Snape could have been the one whispering in Harry's ear, but the text makes it sound more ethereal than that. Harry "tells the music 'I know..'" and it seems more like the power behind the music of the phoenix is giving Harry the encouragement and instruction.


Albus Silente - Mar 2, 2005 3:08 pm (#1243 of 2980)

Full Quote: GoF, Priori Incantatem, Bloomsbury, pg.576)

(...) And then an unearthly and beautiful sound filled the air ... it was coming from every thread of the light-spun web vibrating around Harry and Voldemort. It was a sound Harry recognized, though he had heard it only once before in his life ... phoenix song ...
It was the sound of hope to Harry ... the most beautiful and welcome thing he had ever heard in his life ... he felt as though the song was inside him instead of just around him ... it was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as though a friend was speaking in his ear ...
Don't break the connection.
I know, Harry told the music, I know I mustn't ... but no sooner had he thought it, than the thing became much harder to do. (...)

Sure, this makes it seem as if the phoenix song was the only sound. But it doesn't exclude that there might actually been somebody or something that told him: Don't break the connection.


T Brightwater - Mar 2, 2005 3:09 pm (#1244 of 2980)
Is it possible that Snape really thought Lucius had reformed? It would mean that Lucius was a very good Occlumens himself.

Another remote possibility is that Snape didn't _know_ that Malfoy was a DE. None of them knew who all the others were.


Delightful Task! - Mar 2, 2005 3:40 pm (#1245 of 2980)
Thanks for the quote Albus Silente! But now I read it, once again, the problem I have is that I don't think Harry would associate Snape's voice to the voice of a friend...

Now, the way he would have "told" Harry not to break the connection couldn't be thanks to Legilimency, (mind reading) but rather thanks to a kind of imperius curse...

About Malfoy, I can't imagine Snape didn't know he was a DE when so many people had guessed! He would be a poor spy then! Snape's liking of Draco, according to me, was explained by the fact that Snape knew who is father was...

He might have thought Lucius had reformed... I hadn't thought about that! but you're right, T Brightwater! Or he thought Lucius was too cowardly and would not have dared to go back to Voldemort.


Potions Mistress - Mar 2, 2005 5:53 pm (#1246 of 2980)
Or he thought Lucius was too cowardly and would not have dared to go back to Voldemort.--Delightful Task!

Snape seems pretty savvy when it comes to matters like that--I suspect that he reacts to Malfoy's name is for the reason Delightful Task! stated. Come to think of it, doesn't Ron mention that his dad believes Lucius was deep in the DE inner-circle? And doesn't LV ask why Lucius didn't look for him, if he was such a faithful servant? That might be better on the Lucius Malfoy thread, but I think these reasons might give an explanation about Snape's reaction.

~pm


Gina R Snape - Mar 2, 2005 8:18 pm (#1247 of 2980)
First, welcome Weaslys. I don't feel picked on. I feel pleasantly supported in my marriage.

Now, I think it's possible DD was able to send Fawkes to Harry because of Snape's dark mark honing in on their location. But I don't know why he could not go there himself. I think Harry's instinct was telling him not to let go, and Fawkes' song gave him strength. But I do like this idea of a friendly voice travelling to his ear somehow.

I think Snape turned when Harry started naming names because he was surprised to hear Harry start giving names. But he was just as keen as anyone else to see who might dare show up. I've no illusions that Snape thought Lucius was redeemed. But he might have thought Lucius so comfortable in his little life that he would not want to see the Dark Lord again. I have a hard time imagine Lucius kneeling, bowing, prostrating or otherwise showing deferense to someone else unless he had something to gain from it. He just strikes me as too arrogant to be a real follower of anyone. So him showing up would be of great interest to Snape. Along with anyone else who showed up, he'd want to be in on the scoop as it were.


Prefect Marcus - Mar 2, 2005 9:12 pm (#1248 of 2980)
Edited by Mar 2, 2005 9:12 pm
You know, Gina, that is the best explanation I've heard so far for Snape's reaction. One would almost think you've thought about Snape alot. *ahem* :-D

I do not doubt that if Lucius could betray Voldemort and get away with it, he would do it faster than you can blink an eye. He had everything he could want. Prestige, status, in with the Minister of Magic, money, everything. He is going to give that up to be a psycho's toady? Not willing, that I am sure.

It does make sense that Snape thinks that if he (Snape) is willing to stand up to Voldemort by not responding to the call, surely Lucius Malfoy would stay away too. To hear that he didn't caused Snape a bit of a start.

The thought also could have crossed Snape's mind that if Malfoy had gone back, then that leaves Snape and Karkaroff even more isolated with a vengeful Dark Lord on the loose.

Marcus


Weeny Owl - Mar 2, 2005 9:54 pm (#1249 of 2980)
I agree with the idea that Snape wouldn't have only shown Fudge the Dark Mark; if he had been there, he would have been able to name names as well, and if he's showing the Dark Mark to the Minister of Magic, supporting Harry's statement isn't really any different.

I think it's possible he was there, but I don't think it's probable.

As for him making a movement at the mention of Malfoy's name? I can see Marcus's point... if Snape and Malfoy had ever talked about what they would do if Voldemort ever returned, Malfoy might have bragged that he wouldn't dream of returning, and he might even have meant it at the time, but when Voldemort did actually come back, he wouldn't have had the guts not to go.

What Gina said about the kneeling, bowing, etc.? I've always had a difficult time thinking of Malfoy and his arrogance kowtowing to Voldemort. He must either be really scared of Voldemort, or he's hoping to be the big man in the Death Eaters if Voldemort is defeated.


Mellilot Flower. - Mar 3, 2005 1:25 am (#1250 of 2980)
Even if Snape were there at the graveyard, I can't see him whispering to Harry to keep the connection. How would he know what to do? Voldemort himself barely knew what was going on or what would happen- he was afraid. As far as I know very few wizards knew (before Harry released his interview via the Quibbler) that Harry and Voldemort have brother wands, and so they wouldn't have been able to guess at the prior incantatum effect - very few who did know would have guessed that that would happen either. Even fewer wizards, limited to DD himself I suspect, would have known what to do in that situation unless they were a part of it themselves. So how could Snape have known, or had any clue what was going on?
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Post  Mona on Wed May 25, 2011 2:54 pm

Delightful Task! - Mar 3, 2005 2:00 am (#1251 of 2980)
About Snape and Malfoy again... What is puzzling is that I was not surprised to see Malfoy appear at the rebirthing party, and I suppose you weren't either. That was logical. We would have been surprised to see... Diggory's name appear for instance! or even Sirius' name, Black, since we didn't know about his family at that time...

Therefore, there is a clue behind Snape's reaction, and I think it will become logical after, let's say, two more books!

About Snape helping Harry in the Graveyard, I hadn't thought about that point, Mellilot Flower, but of course, you're right!


Chemyst - Mar 3, 2005 3:47 am (#1252 of 2980)
No, no, no, no, no, dearies. If you'd all just give it up and see it my way, that Snape was at the graveyard, then these difficulties will just drop into their slots.

I think Snape turned when Harry started naming names because he was surprised to hear Harry start giving names– and was concerned that maybe Harry had I.D.'d him and would name "Snape!"
Snape knows Lucius is out for Lucius first and is savvy enough to manipulate this for his (Snape's) own advantage.
Snape stopped at showing Fudge only the Dark Mark because Snape's having a mark can be explained as old news; if he had gone further and begun naming names as well, it would have blown the true nature of his current double-or-triple agent status. DD and Snape gave Fudge the most complete evidence possible without exposing themselves to further danger; they do have a reality-check of Fudge's potential incompetence going on, so they were not going to entrust him with sensitive information that he won't believe is even true.

One of the bigger problems many have in accepting the notion Snape was at the graveyard is that they want to project, "Then why didn't he try to save Harry?" This assumes that Snape would want to save Harry as top priority. It is far more likely that Snape's top priority is actually the destruction of Voldemort. The logic can split two ways depending upon Snape's knowledge of the prophecy:

If Snape knows, as DD appears to, that Voldemort cannot be destroyed without first becoming fully mortal, and that the only Voldemort Harry could kill is a mortal Voldemort, and vice versa, then any attempt to rescue Harry, short of turning him immortal, would have resulted in failure. Snape knew he had to let events play out and wait for a more opportune time. (Attempting rescue and giving undetected support are two different things, however. So if Snape did support Harry - hypothetically, we might imagine Snape disguised a ventriloquist voice to sound like DD - we as readers won't know it if Harry can't detect it. And isn't Harry a lunkhead when it comes to having a clue about Snape?)

- OR -

If Snape were ignorant of the prophecy, and he still did not try to save Harry, then Snape is a bad guy with a greater goal.


Prisoner of Rowling - Mar 3, 2005 6:06 am (#1253 of 2980)
Just a quick thought on the was he/wasn't he at the graveyard. If Snape was at the rebirthing, who was Voldermort referring to when he says "And here we have six missing Death Eaters.....three dead in my service (not too sure of exact names here). One, too cowardly to return......he will pay (I am thinking Karkaroff). One, who I believe has left me for ever.... he will be killed (surely this is Snape)...and one, who remains my most faithful servant and who has already re-entered my service. (Crouch Jr)." I can't see that Voldermort was being particularly cryptic. He must be referring to Snape.


Cornelia - Mar 3, 2005 7:24 am (#1254 of 2980)
And what if Voldemort thinks Snape is the coward, because he heard from Crouch jr. that Karkaroff was telling names and worked with the ministry, from this point of view left him? Rockwood went to Askaban because of Karkaroff. Snape is only staying in Hogwarts, bescause he is afraid of coming to the rebirth-party, that would explain why he was pale when he was sent somewhere from Dumbledore later, because the coward was going to be punished, like Elanor said "Crucio trigger-happy".


Weeny Owl - Mar 3, 2005 9:07 am (#1255 of 2980)
Just a quick thought on the was he/wasn't he at the graveyard. If Snape was at the rebirthing, who was Voldermort referring to when he says "And here we have six missing Death Eaters.....three dead in my service (not too sure of exact names here). One, too cowardly to return......he will pay (I am thinking Karkaroff). One, who I believe has left me for ever.... he will be killed (surely this is Snape)...and one, who remains my most faithful servant and who has already re-entered my service. (Crouch Jr)." I can't see that Voldermort was being particularly cryptic. He must be referring to Snape.

This has been discussed over and over on the archived Snape threads. You should check them out. A lot of the posts go into a lot of detail about who fits which description.


Gina R Snape - Mar 3, 2005 1:10 pm (#1256 of 2980)
Chemyst: No, no, no, no, no, dearies. If you'd all just give it up and see it my way, that Snape was at the graveyard, then these difficulties will just drop into their slots.

Bwa ha ha. Yes, I know this feeling well... See my prophesy theory and Snape-is-absolutely-on-the-side-of-good position...

Weeny Owl: This has been discussed over and over on the archived Snape threads.

Oh, bless you!


Weeny Owl - Mar 3, 2005 2:35 pm (#1257 of 2980)
Wow... a blessing from Mrs. Snape. Perhaps my luck will turn around and be good for once.

I did notice something amusing about Snape in CoS. When Mrs. Norris gets petrified and everyone is checking her out in Lockhart's office, it looked as if Snape was trying not to smile. There's no point to me posting that except amusement. If Mrs. Norris was around during Snape's years as a student, I can imagine he felt the same way about her as the current students feel.


Delightful Task! - Mar 3, 2005 2:58 pm (#1258 of 2980)
I noticed that one too, but do you really think Snape broke rules when he was a student? I rather imagined he was the kind of kid Filch would love... If Snape was not in Slytherin and insulting muggle born students... Actually, the reason why Snape might have been smiling is because I'm sure he knows Mrs Norris is Filch's only magical talent! "poor Filch!"

But in fact, when you think of it... It must have been very funny to see all those great wizards bending on that "poor" Mrs Norris and trying to resurrect it! Lockhart, if I remember well was particularly amusing!


Gina R Snape - Mar 3, 2005 8:34 pm (#1259 of 2980)
Heh, heh.

Well, Ron and Harry certainly felt like kicking Mrs. Norris more than once. I can well imagine Snape feeling that way too at some point in his young life.

And this from a cat lover! But, Mrs. Norris is different. Likely, she is part kneazel. But she's all spy. I doubt Snape was so devoted to the rules as a kid that he never strayed into the hallways past curfew!


Catherine - Mar 4, 2005 4:24 am (#1260 of 2980)
I doubt Snape was so devoted to the rules as a kid that he never strayed into the hallways past curfew! --Gina

I agree with you. I rather think the infamous "werewolf" joke probably took place after hours, although I can't find absolute canon proof for it.

Plus, we know the Marauders were always sneaking out at night, and Snape was very curious about what they were doing. So I'm sure that if he was looking for "evidence" that the Marauders were misbehaving, he too was probably out of bounds at night.

So...the spying started early....hmmm.


Gina R Snape - Mar 4, 2005 7:36 am (#1261 of 2980)
Oh yeah. Watching the marauders was good early experience for later in life for Snape!


Solitaire - Mar 4, 2005 8:11 pm (#1262 of 2980)
I rather think the infamous "werewolf" joke probably took place after hours, although I can't find absolute canon proof for it.

Alas, yes ... and talk about adding insult to injury ... as poor Snape was fleeing the scene, having narrowly escaped being bitten by a werewolf, he was attacked by a vampire. *sigh* Of course, this means I've been wrong all along. The secret passage to Honeydukes isn't for Dumbledore; it's for Snape! Why else would the local candy store stock blood-flavored lollipops? For the local vampire, Snape, of course! There are bound to be those nights when he just has a hankerin' to bite someone's neck. Instead, though, he just nips down into the passage and zooms into Honeydukes for a few lollies! It all fits! I can't believe I didn't see it before!

Solitaire


Chemyst - Mar 4, 2005 10:01 pm (#1263 of 2980)
I rather think the infamous "werewolf" joke probably took place after hours, although I can't find absolute canon proof for it. - Catherine

I don't have any canon proof either, but how about some astronomy proof? When the Moon is full, it is opposite the Earth from the Sun. If we assume that the werewolf joke took place during a full moon, then we know that since the moon was opposite the earth from the sun, the moon rose about the same time the sun set, and the moon set at about the same time the sun rose. If the moon has to be shining for the werewolf to manifest itself, as it did when it popped from behind a cloud, then we at least know it was dark at the time. During winter months in a high latitude such as Hogwarts has, yes, a full moon will rise before the students would be restricted to their dorms, but it will still be after dark. If it was not yet after hours when Snape began tailing them, it most probably was by the time he finished.


Catherine - Mar 5, 2005 4:53 am (#1264 of 2980)
..but how about some astronomy proof? --Chemyst

That works. Thanks for explaining that, Chemyst.

For me, it's interesting to realize that Snape, too, was breaking school rules.


Gina R Snape - Mar 5, 2005 8:36 am (#1265 of 2980)
Yes, Chemyst. I was thinking the same---that it was at least after dark. Also, since it was Madame Pomfrey who escorted him to the shack, the boys probably waited until after curfew to sneak over just in case Madame Pomfrey was still lurking about.


Prefect Marcus - Mar 5, 2005 9:18 am (#1266 of 2980)
But that is assuming that the event happened at night. Full moons in the day time happen all the time, especally in summer.

This gets into the big can of worms of JKR's treatment of under what circumstances werewolves transform. She is very inconsistent in this area. With all the problems, any conclusion derived from assumptions of transformation is suspect, I am afraid.

Pity, that.


Potions Mistress - Mar 5, 2005 9:46 am (#1267 of 2980)
Alas, yes ... and talk about adding insult to injury ... as poor Snape was fleeing the scene, having narrowly escaped being bitten by a werewolf, he was attacked by a vampire. *sigh* Of course, this means I've been wrong all along. The secret passage to Honeydukes isn't for Dumbledore; it's for Snape! Why else would the local candy store stock blood-flavored lollipops? For the local vampire, Snape, of course! There are bound to be those nights when he just has a hankerin' to bite someone's neck. Instead, though, he just nips down into the passage and zooms into Honeydukes for a few lollies! It all fits! I can't believe I didn't see it before!--Solitaire

LOL Solitaire! Love the theory, even if I'm not sure I believe it.

~pm


Choices - Mar 5, 2005 9:50 am (#1268 of 2980)
But, have we ever seen Snape walking around sucking on a blood flavored lollipop and saying, "Who loves you baby?" I think not. LOL Could he really be bald and just wearing a greasy wig?


Catherine - Mar 5, 2005 9:59 am (#1269 of 2980)
Could he really be bald and just wearing a greasy wig?

Careful! I think I see Gina with her wand out!

I doubt Severus has been wearing a greasy wig since his teenaged years.


Solitaire - Mar 5, 2005 10:51 am (#1270 of 2980)
Choices, are you suggesting Telly Severus? Hm ... As for not seeing him sucking on the lolly, Kojak-style, I say he keeps them hidden and only takes them out in the privacy of his own quarters. Otherwise, everyone would know! Of course, I'm sure that Quirrell knew, but he's dead. Who's he going to tell?

If Snape is not a vampire, how about a vampire bat animagus? I have my heart set on this, and I will be very disappointed if he does not turn out to be a vampire ... or a bat animagus ... or both! Either way, I'm sure he would still enjoy the blood-flavored lollies.

Solitaire


Choices - Mar 5, 2005 11:00 am (#1271 of 2980)
"Choices, are you suggesting Telly Severus?" LOL Yep, just my feeble attempt at humor. I am eagerly awaiting the backstory on our dear potion's master - can July possibly get here fast enough? :-)


Gina R Snape - Mar 5, 2005 2:36 pm (#1272 of 2980)
Ooooh, someone here has got to do a Telly Severus photomanip for my next icon. Anyone? Anyone?


Diagon Nilly - Mar 5, 2005 4:34 pm (#1273 of 2980)
Edited by Mar 5, 2005 4:34 pm
Okay, I'm really curious about something. I've been away from the forum for a while, but I'm curious about the resurgence of the Snape-as-Vampire theory since JKR's World Book Day chat ("Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? JKR: Erm... I don't think so.") and how Gina feels about this! ;D


Albus Silente - Mar 5, 2005 4:51 pm (#1274 of 2980)
If Snape was a vampire, how could he have refereed the quidditch match in -what was it?- ah, PS/SS? It was bright daylight and don't vampires "avoid" daylight for "obvious health-reasons"?


Gina R Snape - Mar 5, 2005 5:08 pm (#1275 of 2980)
Diagon Nilly, you are correct in presuming I loathe the Snape-is-a-vampire theory as much as Severus loathes Sirius Black.

But in these last few posts, people are joking. A sense of humour I have. It's the people who seriously debate it in the face of multiple disproofs that gets under my skin.

But alas, there is only so much I can do to try and show people the true nature of my beloved Severus (vampire and otherwise).


Diagon Nilly - Mar 5, 2005 5:17 pm (#1276 of 2980)
Ahhhhhhhh! Okay. We need a sarcasm detector for online chat so lunkheads like me can tell a joke from a cauldron of flobberworms :X

By the way, Gina. Love the avatar as usual. Snape smiling seems as unnatural yet captivating as a barking cat.


Gina R Snape - Mar 5, 2005 5:59 pm (#1277 of 2980)
Thanks, luv. Yes, that was a candid photo taken by someone (not me) on the set of PoA.

Er, I mean we were on the London Underground enjoying a day of muggle travel. Yeah, that's what I mean...


Chemyst - Mar 5, 2005 6:16 pm (#1278 of 2980)
Full moons in the day time happen all the time, especally in summer. - Marcus

No, they don't.

From [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] :
"You will almost never see the full moon and the Sun at the same time. The reason for this is that all the planets, Moon and the Sun lie in a plane in the sky called the ecliptic and this plane is tilted to the Earth's equator by about 23.5 degrees. On full moon day, the Moon and the Sun are roughly (not exactly) on opposite sides of Earth. [...] However, the Moon's orbit is inclined to the ecliptic by about 5 degrees which is the reason why we do not see a solar eclipse during every new moon. Hence at latitudes close to 66.5 degrees, one might be able to see the Sun and the full moon for a very short time simultaneously if the geometry of the Moon is just right."

The latitude in northern Scotland is roughly 57° and would not meet this criteria.

However, you are correct that JKR has been muddy on the circumstances of werewolf transformation. That has been discussed on Lupin & werewolf threads. As this pertains to Snape, if werewolves require a full moon to transform, then it strongly suggests he was running around outside the castle after dark, and probably after hours as well.


Potions Mistress - Mar 5, 2005 7:44 pm (#1279 of 2980)
re: Snape-as-a-vampire.

As I've mentioned on the previous Snape thread, I doubt that he is one. Just ask our dear Gina. She's not a vampire and I doubt that she would marry one, as kissing would become a rather dangerous aspect of the relationship. ;-)

~pm


Gina R Snape - Mar 5, 2005 9:25 pm (#1280 of 2980)
kissing would become a rather dangerous aspect of the relationship

:holds tongue so hard I might bite it off:

Soooooo, anyway.

Should we start making guesses on what will happen to Snape in HbP?


Prefect Marcus - Mar 5, 2005 9:48 pm (#1281 of 2980)
I checked with the Naval Observatory site. While it is true that the full moon (meaning the exact moment the moon is opposite of the sun) is seldom in the sky at the same time as the sun, Rowling does make plain that the period of full moon lasts three days. This period of three days is in common usage. During that time, it is not uncommon for the moon to be in the sky with the sun for a short time.

But the important point is that Rowling is inconsistent with her were-wolf transformations. In one spot the werewolf remains transformed for the full three days. In another, Prof. Lupin was only a werewolf for one night, and only after the moon came out from behind a cloud. So it isn't safe to assume that it was nightime when the werewolf "joke" was played.


Chemyst - Mar 6, 2005 4:48 am (#1282 of 2980)
I checked with the Naval Observatory site.
Thank You. Then you saw it is as I said, if werewolves require a full moon to transform, it strongly suggests Snape was running around outside the castle after dark.

If you want to talk about "Nearly" full moons, then as Nearly Headless Nick might say, "That doesn't cut it."


The Weaslys - Mar 6, 2005 3:21 pm (#1283 of 2980)
Gina, I have one you may like a bit. This goes back a way since I don't often get the chance to look here every day. As to why Snape reacts when Harry starts naming DEs. First, I don't think he was there. That having been said.....

I really think Snape is going to come out being this tremendously good guy. And the reason he reacts that way to Harry's name naming is really quite simple (possibly). Just like when we have a witness to a crime we try to protect him or her from the bad guys they are naming....perhaps Snape does not want to see Harry get into any more trouble than he already is. That would mean that he reacts that way out of concern for Harry. Why is it so hard to believe he could be truly good in his heart? No Gina, I am not trying to steal him from you.


Gina R Snape - Mar 6, 2005 3:43 pm (#1284 of 2980)
That's a terrific explanation, Weaslys! I could see Snape's thoughts spinning as he contemplates what Lucius might have planned, and also what kind of threat Draco might present for Harry. He might also know a thing or two about what Lucius could do to Harry independent of the Dark Lord by way of revenge and/or self-protection.


The Weaslys - Mar 6, 2005 3:52 pm (#1285 of 2980)
So then it rather follows that much of Snape's meanness, though genuine-because of the whole James vs Severus thing-does not show his true feelings. I don't think that he is just protecting Harry because he is somehow aware of the prophecy and wants to see Harry defeat Voldy. I can't think of any good reason that Snape even knows what the prophecy said anyway.

I hate to admit that eventually Dumbledore may die but if and when he does I see either Snape or Lupin as being the ones to take over Harry's well-being. Maybe Snape's motives will remain hidden to the very end while Lupin will be very up front with his feelings as he has been before.

So,do you think Snape really likes Draco as much as he seems to or has this already been discussed? PS. Looked for you and others on the Intro Yourself thread but couldn't find you.


timrew - Mar 6, 2005 3:58 pm (#1286 of 2980)
Also, Snape is clean-shaven. He would have to see himself in a mirror to do this; and it's a well known fact that vampires can't see their own reflection.

Unless, of course, he has his own foe-glass, for the purpose of shaving only (and to see if anyone was sneaking up on him while he was trying to have a nice, peaceful shave).........


Gina R Snape - Mar 6, 2005 3:58 pm (#1287 of 2980)
Weasleys, I've been on this board since about November 2002. I doubt my introduction is still to be found anywhere. But you can always click on my name/avatar and see what I've written there. I've found it to be one good way to get to know who some people are here (if they remember to write a bio on their preferences page!).

I don't think Snape likes Harry, but I do believe he sees Harry as a piece to a higher purpose (i.e. the distruction of Voldemort). But as a matter if fact, I believe it was Snape who was there the night of the prophesy, that he was the one chucked out of the Hogshead, and that his redemption in part circles around this event. I also believe all the *key* Order members know of the prophesy but are sworn to secrecy.

I think Snape likes certain things about Draco. Certainly, he can live his childhood revenge fantasies through Draco. And he enjoys being admired--which Draco does in spades. But I also think his leniency towards Draco and his cronies acts to deliberately weaken them in certain ways.

EDIT: Tim! How funny. But you know, Snape would have to be his own enemy to see himself in a foe glass every day. Then again...


The Weaslys - Mar 6, 2005 4:30 pm (#1288 of 2980)
Well, don't I feel sheepish? Though in my own defense I never said I think Snape likes Harry. I only said he cares for him which is actually a higher emotion than liking. One can care about someone and not particularly liking them.

As for the prophecy thing. I guess I missed that thought if it was mentioned elsewhere and earlier. Makes perfect sense.

Also, does it say in the books that Snape is cleanshaven? The illustrations in the Scholastic editions show him with a beard. (this last bit written by the son who hates to shave!!!!She says as she posts quickly before he can edit)

Thanks, Mom;)


Solitaire - Mar 6, 2005 9:21 pm (#1289 of 2980)
I'll admit to being EXTREMELY skeptical about Snape's motives and his "good guy-ness," but I can't help it. Basically good people do NOT become Death Eaters ... even if they do eventually admit this was a mistake and leave. The fact remains that there are serious flaws in the thinking processes that would have led them there in the first place--even if they didn't bank on the killing and violence aspect of things.

So even though Snape renounced his old DE ways, he must have a conviction somewhere in his heart or mind that pure-blood wizards are better than other wizards, or he probably would not have been with Voldemort in the first place. JM2K ...

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Mar 6, 2005 9:42 pm (#1290 of 2980)
I like Snape overall, and I do believe that he is on the good side, but I still think that JKR was being honest and direct when she said he was a deeply horrible person.

I think he genuinely hates Harry for whatever reason, and if the only reason is James, then he'll always hate Harry. I think he detests students in general. I think he sincerely favors Draco, and the reasons could be numerous, but I don't believe it's to weaken anyone... he just favors his own house.

I don't think Snape is nasty only so he'll fool Voldemort if students of his followers should report back home. I believe that if Voldemort is gone tomorrow and Snape survives, he'll still be exactly the same nasty, sarcastic, vindictive person we've all come to love.

I don't think he's always quite as nasty as he appears to Harry, though. We see much of his behavior through Harry's eyes, and considering their adversarial relationship, I doubt if anything but antagonism would ever show through.

I do believe that he honestly wants Voldemort gone. Whether or not it's because he wants a better Wizarding World or just wants to be out from under the yoke of a dictator, who knows, but I do think his goal is the defeat of Voldemort.

I also think that while he is basically sarcastic, when he's among his peers he isn't quite as caustic. I think he does truly respect and like McGonagall, for instance.

I do truly believe he hates dunderheads and always will.


Mellilot Flower. - Mar 7, 2005 5:07 am (#1291 of 2980)
One thing occurred to me while reading the weaslys post, and I actually thought they were going to say this- that Snape didn't want Harry to take the glory when he named names. It's like the one thing that snape knows and has to help the wizarding world and make himself look good when everything comes out. He can tell the world who the death eaters were and get all the glory, and maybe even that order of merlin second class he was robbed of in Harry's third year.


Gina R Snape - Mar 7, 2005 6:59 am (#1292 of 2980)
Mellilot, I would agree with you except for the fact that Fudge et al. already knew about these people. What Snape knows as a spy will be much more valuable. And it is my hope that when his actions for the Order are revealed, he will receive an Order of Merlin for his bravery and cunning.


Delightful Task! - Mar 7, 2005 7:14 am (#1293 of 2980)
Solitaire, I agree with you, good people do not become Death Eaters...

My opinion is that Snape was blinded, because of his education, his character, his fascination for power or/and his hatred towards the marauders... He was young, and Voldemort was certainly fascinating: he knew so much and was able to command and dominate... He saw in Voldemort only what he wanted to see and wasn't able to question his family's education regarding pure blood superiority.

But if we accept the idea that Snape really changed, and really changed sides, I imagine it's because he eventually realized that what he admired in Voldemort could not make up for the rest: murder, treason, prejudice...

I think Snape eventually realized that there were certain things he could not support. But, as Weeny Owl says, that doesn't mean he suddenly became "good"... He's not faking meanness according to me.

Actually I'm not even sure he has really changed sides yet... but I believe that trust creates a magic bond between people; DD seems to be a specialist of that kind of ancient magic, and DD trusts Snape, and he wants Harry to trust him too. Will Snape be able to betray someone who trusts him, in the end?

So, I think Snape really hates Harry, but he hates many people! I don't think he likes Draco, Draco isn't intelligent enough for that...

If Snape likes a student, I imagine it would rather be someone like him... A student who wouldn't talk much, (unlike Hermione), but who wouldn't make mistakes!


Diagon Nilly - Mar 7, 2005 7:27 am (#1294 of 2980)
I would LOVE to see Snape receive the Order of Merlin! Poor Snape never gets any kudos and he SO desires (and deserves) recognition. If he were a Simpson's character he'd live in a one-room apartment above a bowling alley and below another bowling alley.

I really enjoyed (and agree with) Weeny Owl's "what you see is what you get" post about Snape. Especially the part about "...if Voldemort is gone tomorrow and Snape survives, he'll still be exactly the same nasty, sarcastic, vindictive person we've all come to love." I ADORE snape, but I think he's just a genuine jerk. There was a regular customer like that at a restaurant I worked at. I'm sure he wasn't an evil man nor did he have ulterior motives for being nasty. He was just a sincere *bleeping* *bleep* who always toed the line of wearing is hot coffee.

Although I'll always have that spot in my heart where Snape is just an undercover softie. I just don't see it realistically happening.


Gina R Snape - Mar 7, 2005 7:47 am (#1295 of 2980)
Oooh, Diagon Nilly. You are active again. Does this mean you'll be sticking around for awhile?

As others have said, I don't think Snape is nearly as nasty around his peers or even in general quite as bad as Harry always sees him. But no, he is not all sunshine and flowers. He is good but not nice. But I do think he is funny and rather suspect in private he is capable of letting his guard down under the right circumstances.


Diagon Nilly - Mar 7, 2005 7:56 am (#1296 of 2980)
No guarantees Gina. I'm like a tetherball, I come and go. Smile


Weeny Owl - Mar 7, 2005 10:17 am (#1297 of 2980)
One other thing about Snape's nastiness... it's honest. You can trust it. If he saves someone, it isn't going to be with a great deal of fanfair, parades, interviews, and book deals. He's no Lockhart.

In some ways I wonder if JKR decided to have an anti-Snape when she wrote Umbridge's character. A woman who appears to be sweet, wants to be your best friend, yet is willing to have students physically scarred is diametrically opposite Snape. Snape might hurt your feelings, but he'll save your life.


Phoenix song - Mar 7, 2005 10:52 am (#1298 of 2980)
Weeny Owl, I think that you've made some interesting observations in comparing Snape's and Umbridge's characters! I, for one, would much rather be around a person that was unpleasant and even mean, but that wasn't evil on the inside than I would to be around someone who gives off the appearance of sweetness and but has pure evil seeping from every pore. It is possible that DJU was indeed the Anti-Snape. Good catch!

Barbie


Delightful Task! - Mar 7, 2005 11:34 am (#1299 of 2980)
And yet, in PoA, he really seemed eager to have everybody know that he had saved Harry from a dangerous DADA werewolf... Am I mistaken? That's how I understood his desire for an Order of Merlin first class anyway! But I like your comparison between Snape and Umbridge. It is my opinion anyway that most of the characters who seem to be "decent" on Uncle Vernon's standards are the most dangerous... And Snape isn't among them I think!


Weeny Owl - Mar 7, 2005 11:56 am (#1300 of 2980)
Anything having to do with the Marauders is in its own category, though.

He saved Harry from Quirrell's spell during Quidditch, he gave Umbridge fake Verituserum, and there are probably other examples I'm not remembering.

I'm not so sure he really wanted everyone to know he had saved anyone from a werewolf. I think he wanted justice for what almost happened to him more than public acknowledgement. If Sirius actually had been a bad guy, Snape would truly have saved three students, after all.
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Potions Mistress - Mar 7, 2005 12:08 pm (#1301 of 2980)
It is interesting though that he gave Harry fake Veritaserum. To me, it shows that he places little faith in Harry not to do something like drink something from Umbridge. This in turn makes me wonder if he knows about the Prophecy and Harry's role in it.

~pm


septentrion - Mar 7, 2005 12:49 pm (#1302 of 2980)
If he gave fake veritaserum to Umbridge, he did it because she told him what she wanted to do with it (and Dumbledore's remark about it at the end of the book inclines me to think so) or he didn't trust her and just took precaution. well, it's a difficult potion to brew, he wouldn't have wanted it spilled away by a so obviously silly woman who has embarrassed him in front of the students by asking him why he didn't get the dADA position. This doesn't tell us Snape didn't trust Harry not to drink something offered by Umbridge but an extra precaution doesn't harm. BTW, how could Harry have guessed Umbridge would give him veritaserum ?


Prefect Marcus - Mar 7, 2005 12:54 pm (#1303 of 2980)
And yet, in PoA, he really seemed eager to have everybody know that he had saved Harry from a dangerous DADA werewolf...

Well, HE didn't broadcast it. It has been said that there are few pleasures that match having a selfless act of yours becoming publicly known by accident. :-) Snape strikes me as someone who would really enjoy that happening.


Gina R Snape - Mar 7, 2005 12:55 pm (#1304 of 2980)
The fact is, Harry did think about the possibility that the tea might contain veritaserum. But if Umbridge asked for it, he was compelled to give her something. Also, he could not risk that she might simply force it down Harry's throat.


septentrion - Mar 7, 2005 1:01 pm (#1305 of 2980)
So Gina, we totally agree on that matter.


Gina R Snape - Mar 7, 2005 1:02 pm (#1306 of 2980)
I guess we do!


Delightful Task! - Mar 7, 2005 1:14 pm (#1307 of 2980)
there are few pleasures that match having a selfless act of yours becoming publicly known by accident. :-) Snape strikes me as someone who would really enjoy that happening.

I see what you mean Prefect Marcus and I agree with you!... I read the passage again, and Snape there rather strikes me as someone who really wants to make sure people think he is on the "good side"...

As for Snape giving fake Veritaserum to Harry... I suppose it was a bit risky to give some real one 'just for fun'... But if Harry hadn't known so many things about the Order and Snape's part in it, I don't know what might have happened!


Elanor - Mar 7, 2005 1:56 pm (#1308 of 2980)
Delightful task: My opinion is that Snape was blinded, because of his education, his character, his fascination for power or/and his hatred towards the marauders... He was young, and Voldemort was certainly fascinating: he knew so much and was able to command and dominate... He saw in Voldemort only what he wanted to see and wasn't able to question his family's education regarding pure blood superiority.

I do agree with you! And with Gina saying "He is good but not nice". I think he is good precisely because of some traits that make him a "not nice" person. I see him as a proud man, hard on people and on himself, setting very high standards for himself and wanting the others to do the same, despising mediocrity. With all his pride, I imagine what a painful step it must have been first to realize he was wrong about Voldemort and then to acknowledge it in front of DD and, by the very fact, in front of the first Order of the Phoenix, including people he hated. He learnt his lesson the hard way and he is a clever man, he won't do the same mistake again.

I have heard a saying today: "it is not a mistake to fall but it is one not to stand up again". Snape fell, stood up again, I'm sure he will try and do his best not to fall again, after all he still has some deep scars from that fall...


dizzy lizzy - Mar 7, 2005 10:45 pm (#1309 of 2980)
A phrase from a song for your consideration:

"time heals all wounds but leaves the scars" - Slim Dusty.

This seems particularly pertinent in light of Elanor's post above.

Snape's Emotional/mental "wounds" have healed, but the scars are still there in his mind. Whether that's because he can't (or won't) heal the scars is another matter.

Lizzy


Rosie - Mar 8, 2005 5:56 am (#1310 of 2980)
I was talking to my husband yesterday about Blakes Seven when a crazy idea came into my head. Snape is a lot like Avon, a bad guy on the side of the good guys! This does not bold well for Harry and friends, as Avon detrayed the Seven at the end and was only on the side of good at the time because he hated the bad guy (or is that girl) more.

Has anyone else got any ideas on Harry Potter/Blakes Seven parallels - maybe there is a new thread in this!


Catherine - Mar 8, 2005 6:28 am (#1311 of 2980)
Has anyone else got any ideas on Harry Potter/Blakes Seven parallels - maybe there is a new thread in this! --Rosie

No need to start a new thread, Rosie. We have one "Comparing HP to Other Works"

I hope this helps.


karebear811 - Mar 8, 2005 3:31 pm (#1312 of 2980)
"The British adult verion seems to me to be the most thought provoking of all three bookcovers. JK told us that we should be asking 'why did voldemort not die'? rather than 'why did Harry survive?. What did voldemort do during the time of leaving school and then returning years later so transformed that hardly anyone recognised him as Tom Riddle? Could this have anything to do with 'Potions' he concocted, as well as other spells,charms etc. " - The Willow Tree on the HBP thread.

Ok, so I posted a response to this there, because it made me think, but I also think my response would fit here for discussion.

Edit: Sorry if this has already been discussed, I am still semi new around here and have not had time to read all posts yet.

I do think it was some form of a potion that stopped Voldy, possibly the stopper of death that Snape mentioned in SS/PS. Could that be how Snape became a DE in the first place? Voldy knew Snape was very skilled at potions, and into dark arts, recruited him, made him one of the gang (something Snape seemed to be out of in his Hogwarts days) and had him make him stopper of death. Snape then did this early on, before he really realized what he got himself into with the DE and then went to DD for help to get out. He explained to DD the whole senario about the Stopper of Death, and probably how it works and such if DD didnt already know. Then he gave him some other useful info, and got back into DD's trust.

Any thoughts?

Edit: Sorry if this has already been discussed, I am still semi new to this forum and did not have time to go through all the posts on this thread.


Cornelia - Mar 9, 2005 12:28 am (#1313 of 2980)
I don´t know if it has been discussed,too:-)

Maybe he is in Hogwarts and Potions Master because Dumbledore wants him to search for an antidote to his Death-stop Potion. He has to repair the damage he caused?

Edit:Okay, it has been discussed...next time I search before I post:-(


Mellilot Flower. - Mar 9, 2005 6:11 am (#1314 of 2980)
Snape has to be nasty, he has to be hated by Harry and his friends, and he has to be a good guy. It it the only place where we can see that all good guys aren't goody goodies. I think that there is a growing theme in the books that's trying to show that the world isn't black and white as far as good people and bad people go. "the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters." The closest we've seen, apart from Severus, to someone who is essentially good, but not very nice is the glimpse of James in the pensieve.

Of course, this just backs up what people were saying abotu Umbridge being the anti-snape, as the above quote was said in reference to Umbridge.


Gina R Snape - Mar 9, 2005 9:56 am (#1315 of 2980)
karebear811, that idea has already been discussed on this thread. I encourage you to use the search function and see what was written. Perhaps you will have a new spin on things!


karebear811 - Mar 9, 2005 10:56 am (#1316 of 2980)
Thanks! I'll do that!


Lina - Mar 9, 2005 2:27 pm (#1317 of 2980)
It seems I can thank to the new covers for books for being able to catch up on this thread. i didn't want to skip any of the posts. So, may I say I liked very much some of your explanations of Snape's personality, Delightful Task! Those were exactly my thoughts which I couldn't put into words.

The graveyard scene has come up again and I don't remember anybody, even me, mentioning one of the possible reasons of the Snape's reaction to Harry naming DEs. It goes like this: We have been told that DEs didn't know all of other DEs. Some of them were too proud to be DEs, too devoted to the Dark Lord, like Belatrix, so everybody should have known their identity and they were not hiding it. But most of them were working sort of "undercover", they believed they could do more harm to the world if it was not known that they are DEs. And I believe that Voldemort thought the same, therefore they all weared masks and their names did not come out loud. I don't think that it depends on the inner or the outer circle of the Master they belonged to, but on what they were doing in the public life. So it was for the purpose of safety, if someone cached one of the DEs, he couldn't say the names of others, except few of them and he couldn't testify about the others. And I think that Snape was surprised that Voldemort decided to say out loud the names of those DEs, it seems that he had never done it before, as if he says "I don't care about your safety any more. If other wizards tear you apart, don't count on my help!" JM2K

And it does bother me what was the assignment that DD gave to Snape at the end of the GoF. I really hope we find out about it in the HBP. My guess was that it was to tell Voldemort about the importance of the missing part of the prophecy because it would make sense with Voldemort's behaviour in the OotP, but it just seems as too simple (not as a job, but as a conclusion) that it would be spying to Voldemort. There must have been something else. And it must be in correlation with "The one who has left me forever" and with the question if Snape was on the graveyard or not. I'm sure it will sound so logical when we read it, but I can't think of anything convincing. (I guess that's why I'm not a writer.)

And I started to think only now about what happened at the graveyard after Harry left with Cedric's body? All those DEs most certainly didn't disappear as well. As much as Voldemort was humiliated, I'm sure they started to make plans for the future. There must Wormtail have got a sort of assignment that we don't know anything about too. I know this doesn't belong strictly to this thread, but the thoughts have come in it. And here the question if Snape was at the rebirthing party gets a new dimension. Was he there to get the idea of Voldemort's plans? Did he know all the time where Wormtail was? Was he taking care of him? Hmmm. O.K. Feel free to throw dungbombs!

And I think that the phoenix song didn't come from Fawkes himself, but from the feathers from the wands. And I think that there is the secret of Harry defeating Voldemort or at least weakening him because this song puts fear in the evil heart.

Excuse me please, for the long post and my bad english. I hope it was possible to understand what I was meaning.


Rosie - Mar 10, 2005 2:31 am (#1318 of 2980)
Thanks Catherine, posting my mad idea over there now!


Ponine - Mar 10, 2005 4:23 am (#1319 of 2980)
Lina - I really really like your theory about why Snape was so surprised. I have not yet gotten to the now infamous graveyard scene, but just going through it in my mind, it seems interesting. WE know that they - at least traditionally - claim never to know of one another, and for Voldemort to sort of blow their cover to each other, one by one, that could cause some - anxiety and uncertainty, I suppose. Another thing that just hit me - Would it not then be reasonable for Snape to wonder if Voldie mentioned Severus' name, and what might have been said in front of Harry? Whether Snape is a double, triple or quadruple agent, I would worry if Harry had a nice conversation with Voldemort, as we never know what Harry might think to say, based on his very gut feelings right there and then. I will be quiet now - all I mean to say was I agree...


Lina - Mar 10, 2005 4:54 am (#1320 of 2980)
Ponine: Another thing that just hit me - Would it not then be reasonable for Snape to wonder if Voldie mentioned Severus' name, and what might have been said in front of Harry?

Yes, I like the idea! If he wasn't at the graveyard, he could have wandered what Voldemort said. And would he be willing to accomplish his task if Harry had told him about "The one, who I believe has left me forever..."?


Ponine - Mar 10, 2005 10:47 am (#1321 of 2980)
Lina - exactly! I mean - If I was doing a balancing act like we believe Snape to be doing, I might consider Harry my biggest threat, simply due to his big mouth and tendency to be everywhere at all times. Unintentionally, he may very well become Snape's downfall, and deliver a serious blow to the Order... Hmmm


T Brightwater - Mar 10, 2005 2:24 pm (#1322 of 2980)
I think that in his "debriefing" of DD and Sirius in DD's office, Harry would have told everything he could remember of what Voldemort said in the graveyard, including his references to people who weren't there. I think Snape and DD both knew that when Snape left, there was a chance that he wouldn't come back.


The Weaslys - Mar 11, 2005 2:30 pm (#1323 of 2980)
Ponine, you seem to have hit it exactly when you said "traditionally" DEs don't know who the other DEs are. Logic tells me that they would recognize each others' voices and then perhaps when running into each other one discussion would lead to another and then they would end up discussing the fact that they were both DEs. The DEs remind me of that other infamous group of bad guys that we had (unfortunately still have) here in the states that also wear robes and hide their faces.I think that it would be very difficult for the arrogant death eaters to NOT tell each other who they were.

And I still think that DD's assignment to Snape was to go to Voldemort and somehow try to convince him that he has been loyal all along. The fact that he is head of Slytherin and shows favoritism towards Draco might make it easier for Voldemort to believe any excuses he might come up with. Kind of like the Malfoys could be his bad character witnesses. Maybe this makes no sense, but it's been a long day.


Mellilot Flower. - Mar 12, 2005 3:22 am (#1324 of 2980)
Have we ever seen Snape and Malfoy(senior) together? I always got the impression that Lucius sees Snape as the best of a bad lot so far as Hogwarts goes, yet you all seem to be thinking that the two of them are the best of friends... Just wondered what I was missing.


Ydnam96 - Mar 12, 2005 7:17 am (#1325 of 2980)
Melliot: I don't think we actually see Snape and Malfoy together (if my memory serves me) at all in the books. We (as a collective audience)have drawn conclusions about their relationship based on information we have gotten from Draco about how his dad knows Snape, how Snape treats Draco, and some people's personal inclinations towards both of their characters.

They may NOT be friends.

They may be working together.

I think it's yet to be revealled what Snape's (and Malfoy's) real agenda is.


Cornelia - Mar 12, 2005 7:35 am (#1326 of 2980)
The Death Eaters used to work together when they fought and killed, at least sometimes when they had to do difficult work, for example eliminate a member of the Order of the Phoenix.

I think if you do such a "job" together you know your fellows?

For Lucius Snape is maybe indeed his "lapdog" just as Sirius said. I don´t know if Snape is pure and highclassed enough for the Malfoys to be a friend. But Umbridge said that "Malfoy always speaks most highly of you" so maybe Severus is useful for Lucius and the other way round.


Choices - Mar 12, 2005 9:16 am (#1327 of 2980)
I think the only time we have seen Lucius and Snape together was in COS (the movie) when they are sitting together at the quidditch game when the bludger chases Harry.....so that's movie contamination.


hellocello3200 - Mar 12, 2005 2:07 pm (#1328 of 2980)
You know, I wouldn't put it past JKR to have Lucius turn out to be working through Snape for the order, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Your right choices, darn movie contamination. Do parents even go to quidditch matches?


Dumbledore - Mar 12, 2005 2:08 pm (#1329 of 2980)
No, not that we know of. I do however, know that godfathers disguised as dogs somehow are allowed in! :-D


Albus Silente - Mar 12, 2005 3:18 pm (#1330 of 2980)
Maybe parents don't, but school governors certainly have a possibility to do so. In CoS Lucius is still one of them.


Choices - Mar 12, 2005 5:41 pm (#1331 of 2980)
I agree Albus - I think Lucius was there more in an "official" capacity than in a "fatherly" one. As you said, he is a school governor.


Solitaire - Mar 12, 2005 7:03 pm (#1332 of 2980)
Do parents attend Quidditch matches? Muggle parents attend their children's soccer and football games. I can't see why Wizarding parents wouldn't attend the matches, if their kids are playing. As adults, they can certainly apparate close enough to Hogwarts to make it an easy trip. Molly and Bill came to see Harry in the third task of the Triwizard Tournament, and the Weasleys aren't exactly loaded with Wizard gold. It must not be that difficult or costly to get there.

I'm betting Lucius came to see Draco play on the Slytherin team ... and check out the new brooms he bought the team. He might also have had an ulterior motive ... to check out how things were getting on with Ginny and the Diary. I wouldn't put it past him to snoop ... would you?

Solitaire

edited


Amilia Smith - Mar 12, 2005 8:33 pm (#1333 of 2980)
However, Molly and Arthur never come to any of the Quidditch matches, at least as far as we know, and they have always had at least two children on the team at any given time. (But I do agree, Solitaire, that I wouldn't put it past Lucius to snoop.)

But that has nothing to do with Snape. To get this post on topic . . .

Someone (don't remember who, sorry) recently mentioned Sirius's comment that Snape was Lucius's lapdog. Do you think this "relationship" is a recent development, or is it a carry over from school days? When I read it in the book, it felt like a carry over, as so many of the things with Snape and Sirius are, but the dates don't really match up when I checked the Lexicon. Lucius would have been a seventh year when Snape was a first year. So with the age difference and the lapdog comment, I am getting a picture of a Colin-Creevey-like young Severus tagging along after and hero worshiping Malfoy. Which doesn't really jive with the Snape we have come to know. Granted, people change a bit between eleven and thirty-some-odd, but still . . .

Anyway, what do you think?

Mills.

PS I hope this post makes sense. I have been sick for the past three days and am not feeling all that coherent.


Elanor - Mar 13, 2005 12:10 am (#1334 of 2980)
It makes sense to me Amilia!:-) But I have trouble imagining Snape being Colin-like when he was eleven, as I have trouble thinking to him as anybody's lapdog actually. He may pretend to be one because he needs Lucius or anybody else to believe he is his lapdog but it would be only a role he would play. "Necessity knows no law" could very well be applied to him and his actions, or to any Slytherin as a matter of fact.

I was reading the PS again recently and something struck me. As a Slytherin and someone who knew a lot about dark arts before coming to Hogwarts, which should indicate he was born in a very traditionalist, pure-blood mania family, Snape should despise everything that is related to the muggle world. Now, in PS, he used not magic but logic for protecting the stone.

"'Brilliant, said Hermione. 'This isn't magic - it's logic - a puzzle. A lot of the greatests wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd be stuck in here forever.'" (PS p.207) So here, for something as serious as the protection of the Philosopher's stone, Snape trusts logic, a muggle quality (and his potion master's skills), isn't it interesting? This tells us not only that he is a very clever man but also that he is not the narrow-minded Slytherin he pretends to be. He may have been one when he was young but he has learnt a lot since then. As always, to learn the truth about him, we have to look at what he does, not what he says. "Necessity knows no law", indeed.


Ydnam96 - Mar 13, 2005 8:03 am (#1335 of 2980)
Hmmm...you bring up a good point. Do we see Snape use his wand a whole lot, just during the scene in PoA in the Shreiking Shack and then again in OoTP when he's doing the Occlumency lessons, an Oh, during the dueling club. Anyway, my point is that Snape seems to have a dislike for "foolish wand waving" and more of a predisposition towards potionmaking which is more logical than purely "magical" if you get my meaning. It makes perfect sense to me that Snape is a linear thinking, where as I think most of the WW is not so much of a linear though pattern place.


Gina R Snape - Mar 13, 2005 8:33 am (#1336 of 2980)
Now, that is very interesting. Snape has all these 'hidden skills' that serve him well. Logic, occlumency, spying ability (acute observing skills), etc. When Harry says Snape puts things together like no one else can (e.g. figured out Harry was there on the stairs in GoF), he is using a combination of deductive logic and observation. Likely, he possesses them (except occlumency) as natural ability. Possibly, he sharpened them as a means of self-protection from abusive parents. Those in inferior positions can always 'read' their oppressors.

But does it follow, then, that he has an appreciation for muggles? Or is he simply above and beyond most wizards? I tend to think it's got nothing to do with muggles. He wants to outdo, outsmart, outperform others. That puzzle showed his cleverness and his personality and way of thinking as the most strategic way to keep others out of the room and away from the stone. And it offers up another proof of the length he went to to protect the Stone on the side of good.

THREE CHEERS FOR SEVERUS SNAPE!


Lina - Mar 13, 2005 8:44 am (#1337 of 2980)
I like your idea, Elanor! I wouldn't think that he despises the wand magic, he just doesn't think it's better than any other way of magic or intelligence (and stubbornly fails to see the value of emotional intelligence). I think that he (as I) thinks that logic is a rare value and deserves to be checked in order to get the stone. Maybe he thinks that Voldemort lacks logic since it was aimed to stop him from getting the stone, or he thinks that any person who would be willing to help Voldemort lacks logic? Or maybe he was sure that Voldemort would solve it and it proves that he is still on his side?

When I read the part about "foolish wand waving" in the introduction class in the PS/SS, I thought that he tried to tell the students that there is much more to real magic than just wand waving. We do see him wand waving - for example when a student spoils a potion, and then he cleans the mess with his wand. We see him doing wandless magic that is not potion making - countercurse to Quirrel during the quiddich match. It just make me wander why he wants to be a DADA teacher? If he thought that potion making is superior to any other magic, he would be very satisfied with it. He isn't. Would he teach DADA without wand waving? Would his classes be something like Umbridge's? Does he think that the most important for DADA is logic and observing?


Gina R Snape - Mar 13, 2005 10:15 am (#1338 of 2980)
I think his point in that speech is that magic is about more than just making feathers float in the air and such. First years are getting their first opportunity to have a wand. So there are probably quite a few children wandering about waving their wands like they are toys.

I can well imagine Snape in DADA class, warning the children that there are serious dangers out there. The wand is not a toy, it is a precision tool designed to fight the forces of evil, etc. In other words, scare the, um, robes off them and get them to take DADA seriously.


Solitaire - Mar 13, 2005 10:21 am (#1339 of 2980)
I was just looking for something else completely and saw something I'd never noticed in the Pensieve scene from OotP:

Sirius's head turned. He became very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit. "Excellent," he said softly. "Snivellus."
Harry turned to see what Sirius was looking at.
Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the OWL paper in his bag.

I know I've been a strong proponent of the Snape-as-bat theory, but this makes me wonder. Could Snape be an animagus--one whose form is ... a rabbit? Imagine how cranky that would make our dear old potions master, especially compared with Sirius's huge, black dog and James's stag! Well, it was a thought ...

Solitaire


Gina R Snape - Mar 13, 2005 10:54 am (#1340 of 2980)
Aaaawwwww, Snape as an ickle bunny wabbit. Cyuuuute. Then again, he could be a KBR. And lets not forget what else rabbits are known for.


Hollywand - Mar 13, 2005 10:59 am (#1341 of 2980)
Gina, are you speaking of the killer rabbit from the Monty Python search for the Holy Grail? Rhetorical question....


Gina R Snape - Mar 13, 2005 11:24 am (#1342 of 2980)
Yes, of course. But perhaps you don't also know about our resident KBR?


Solitaire - Mar 13, 2005 12:26 pm (#1343 of 2980)
He could be like the lop-eared rabbit my sister had when her kids were little. That sucker was one mean dude! He bit people who wandered into his pen (not a cage, a large pen with veggies and stuff) ... very Snape-ish temper, if you ask me! Hm ... it could work!

Solitaire


Elanor - Mar 13, 2005 12:34 pm (#1344 of 2980)
Gina: But does it follow, then, that he has an appreciation for muggles? Or is he simply above and beyond most wizards? I tend to think it's got nothing to do with muggles. He wants to outdo, outsmart, outperform others. That puzzle showed his cleverness and his personality and way of thinking as the most strategic way to keep others out of the room and away from the stone. And it offers up another proof of the length he went to to protect the Stone on the side of good.

Yes, exactly! What I was trying to say is that Snape is not prejudiced against skills as logic or any other thing that can help him in his task, whatever origin it is. He trusts his brain as much as his magical abilities and, in that way, he doesn't match with the pure-blood maniacs he used to mix with. I believe his cleverness was a great part of what made him leave Voldemort. He was far too clever and "cold headed" (can I say that?) for becoming a real fanatic, as Bella for example. I believe he always thought by himself and would not permit that someone, even Voldemort, tells him what he had to think. Don't you think so?

I love the idea that his skills were developped for "surviving" when he was a child, it would explain a lot of things!

PS: I have absolutely no clue what "KBR" mean, could someone tell me?


Gina R Snape - Mar 13, 2005 12:53 pm (#1345 of 2980)
Geez. WHERE is Carina when you need her?!?!


T Brightwater - Mar 13, 2005 1:30 pm (#1346 of 2980)
Killer Bunny Rabbit. As far as I can tell, it only attacks really inappropriate posts. Also known as Thumper?


Denise P. - Mar 13, 2005 2:24 pm (#1347 of 2980)
No, Thumper is quite different from KBR. KBR belongs to a member, Carina. She always has an avatar of a rabbit, nicknamed Killer Bunny Rabbit.

Thumper visits posts that are getting heated with the advice "If you can't say nothin' nice, don't say nothin' at all."

In any event, I can't see Snape being much of a bunny kind of guy.


Gina R Snape - Mar 13, 2005 2:35 pm (#1348 of 2980)
Thanks guys. Gee, I feel 'forum old' now.

Indeed, I can't imagine Snape saying what Thumper would say! The reverse, more like.

But you know, I could kind of see Snape as a shiny black bunny with very sharp teeth and excellent hearing. The cuteness factor would be disarming to what he's really up to...not unlike Snape (being not what he appears to be).

I think it deserves a bit more consideration, actually!


Betelgeuse Black - Mar 13, 2005 2:38 pm (#1349 of 2980)
Gina,

The way you described Severus, "outdo, outsmart, outperform", made me think of the US TV show, Survivor. LOL

I think that describes Mr. Snape in a nutshell, don't you?

Betelgeuse


Gina R Snape - Mar 13, 2005 2:54 pm (#1350 of 2980)
Well, I don't watch the show Survivor, Betelgeuse. But 'outdo, outsmart, outperform' does seem to match him! And perhaps is even a subset of the slytherin motto (not that it would apply to ALL slytherins :koffCrabbe&Goylekoff:) But it is ambitious.

Then again, you'll always see me singing Severus' praises when I can.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 13, 2005 6:18 pm (#1351 of 2980)
I did a search on this question I came up with only a single post that was indirectly tied to this question. If Voldemort was unaware that Severus was a spy for the Order, why did Severus need to take up the position of Potions Master at Hogwarts?


Weeny Owl - Mar 13, 2005 8:10 pm (#1352 of 2980)
No one knows for sure, Nathan, but there's been a lot of speculation on archived threads.

It could be that Voldemort's original idea was to invade Hogwarts and he wanted a Death Eater present. Unfortunately for him, he was vaporized at Godric's Hollow before the invasion could happen.

It could be that it was Dumbledore's idea partly as a way to keep Snape safe and partly as an easy way for Snape to give whatever information he collected while spying. In any case, Snape would have been able to go to Voldemort saying that having a spy in Dumbledore's camp might not be a bad idea, and maybe someone could apply to teach there, and Voldemort would have given that task to Snape to perform.


Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 13, 2005 9:00 pm (#1353 of 2980)
Weeny, thanks for the imformation it really helped because, my young cousin asked me the question. The explanation helped us to understand it better.


Delightful Task! - Mar 19, 2005 3:09 am (#1354 of 2980)
Ooooooo! I can't believe there has been no new message for such a long time!! Have we understood who Snape was at last? Nah!!! I have one question!!! In an interview, JKR answered a question about Snape being in love... here's the quote:

One of our Internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.

Well... the horrible idea isn't Snape being in love as you noticed but having Snape being in love with you, which is quite different. Then, what is Jo stunned about? Snape being in love, or the redemptive pattern?


Potions Mistress - Mar 19, 2005 7:08 am (#1355 of 2980)
Oh, good catch, Delightful Task! If Snape being able to love (whether romantically, platonically, etc.) a person is part of a redemptive pattern, would the person he loves be in danger?

~pm


TwinklingBlueEyes - Mar 19, 2005 7:06 pm (#1356 of 2980)
I fear for Gina all the time! Great catch Delightful Task! 30 points to your house!


Gina R Snape - Mar 19, 2005 8:26 pm (#1357 of 2980)
You are too kind, TBE.

But to tell you the truth, I think JKR just doesn't 'get it' when it comes to Snape fans. I've come to the conclusion that Severus just 'isn't her type' so she can't see the full extent of her own creation.

But yes, I could see how any romantic partner of Snape's might be in danger. It is, in fact, a common theme of Snape fanfiction. Whomever he dates could become a target of death eaters (if, say, she winds up being a muggleborn for example) and especiallly if Snape's undercover status is blown.


Delightful Task! - Mar 20, 2005 5:16 am (#1358 of 2980)
Thanks, TwinklingBlueEyes for the 30 points! Perhaps it's a bit too much... but well, it was very brave from a Gryffindor to try and save the Snape thread!! Anyway I'm not so sure Snape is going to fall in love in book 7... I rather think he was in love in the past and that was part of what made him change his mind about Voldemort... He might even have been in love with Lily according to me... But that may have been discussed somewhere else!


septentrion - Mar 20, 2005 7:07 am (#1359 of 2980)
He might even have been in love with Lily according to me... But that may have been discussed somewhere else!

if you use the search function, you'll probably find some old thread where it has been thouroughly discussed.


Potions Mistress - Mar 20, 2005 9:08 am (#1360 of 2980)
This is starting to become a topic of debate on another forum I frequent, so I thought I'd put out the question here, as well:

Is Snape happy being miserable (and miserable being happy) or is he just unhappy from past situations and whatnot, but wants to be happy (or happier, anyway)? Thoughts, anyone?

~pm


Ydnam96 - Mar 20, 2005 9:28 am (#1361 of 2980)
You know I'm not sure that there is happieness in being miserable, but I do think that when one has become so entrenched in it it becomes comfortable. What you know. Not that you derive happiness from it, but it's all you know and to change is frightening. Also, you might derive a sense of entitlement, like I deserve to feel this bitterness because I was dealt a raw hand. He might be want to be happy on some level, but he doesn't know what that is really like and it might be scary to leave everything he's known for so long behind.

Does that make sense?


Choices - Mar 20, 2005 9:54 am (#1362 of 2980)
I think Snape is so cynical about life - he has been hurt, embarrassed, embittered and hung unside down by life and he thinks that's all there is. Hurt, or be hurt. Something really miraculous is going to have to happen to turn him around - a huge slap in the face, ice water over the head type of wake-up call. He is going to have to have a real, huge lesson in love and loving before he can change and see life in a different light, but I think it's possible.

Gina - I LOVE what you said about Snape not being JKR's type, so she can't quite see him as huge numbers of fans do. That is so true!


hellocello3200 - Mar 20, 2005 10:05 am (#1363 of 2980)
I agree with Gina as well that JKR doesn't like Snape as much as some people and that is why I don't think his story will end like a fanfic, but I would rather that than have her turn Snape into Mr. Sensitive like some fanfic writers tend to do. (Though not all)


Gina R Snape - Mar 20, 2005 8:17 pm (#1364 of 2980)
Oh yeah, I definitely hate fics that have Snape turn into Mr. Sensitive, spouting "I love you" to his amour-du-jour at the drop of a hat or being nice to Harry when no one is looking.

I think Snape enjoys being miserable to others. We see a lot of that through Harry. However, I think he is at his 'best' when he is in action. But we've only seen that a couple of times. We don't really know what Snape thinks and feels in private. But I suspect he is comfortable being unhappy. Happiness is a threat when one knows there is much that can be taken away. Also, Snape might think of happiness as complacency and he hasn't the position for that luxury in his life at present.


Potions Mistress - Mar 20, 2005 10:06 pm (#1365 of 2980)
I would also add that I think his snarky and sarcastic attitude is used as a shield from past, present, and future hurt and anger.

~pm


Cornelia - Mar 21, 2005 12:05 am (#1366 of 2980)
I´m wondering since some time, if he´s so negative is he able to produce a patronus at all?

"Happiness is a threat when one knows there is much that can be taken away"-Gina

Will happiness lead for him to sad and unhappy memories, like "how can I ever be happy again after the terrible things I´ve done as DE or after the terrible things have been done to me" and therefore he trys to avoid being happy?

So, I think he wants to be happier but is not brave enough to try


Gina R Snape - Mar 21, 2005 6:10 am (#1367 of 2980)
It's a good question, Cornelia, if Snape can produce a patronus owing to his emotional state. But I'd like to think that in a life-or-death situation even he can come up with at least one memory happy enough to produce one. Our wedding, at least! Perhaps when Dumbledore agreed to take him in?


Potions Mistress - Mar 21, 2005 6:20 am (#1368 of 2980)
Hmm...Cornelia, that's a good point. I would hope in a life-or-death situation, Snape could conjure a Patronus, but judging from his past and his current attitude, I think it would be difficult for him, to say the least.

~pm


Delightful Task! - Mar 21, 2005 6:27 am (#1369 of 2980)
I love this question about Snape's patronus, Cornelia! I really wonder now if he would be able to produce one! If I'm right, JKR didn't want to reveal what his Patronus was because "it would give too much away" or something... I can imagine Harry having to decide if he's going to save his dear potion master from the Dementors! What a nice chapter it would make: "Snape Demented"...?!

Does Snape really want to be happy? Well... Just as he thinks being nice is being stupid, I suppose he doesn't consider happiness as a priority in life! On the other hand, I suppose he feels happy when he has managed to brew a particularly difficult potion and he sees it simmering in his cauldron... He will smell it, admire the colour... He knows he is the only one to master its effects... He will choose a particular bottle that will enhance its shades... And write the label in his best hand... Isn't that happiness too after all?!


Cornelia - Mar 21, 2005 6:31 am (#1370 of 2980)
Worst case: Would he need one at all? With no happiness in you, there would be not much to suck out(without a kiss); Snape indigestible for Dementors?

No, I won´t think about that!

Maybe we have to think over our definition of a happy memory? So as you said, he´s happy being mean to others: 100 points from Gryffindor! Expecto Patronum!

Edit: D.Task, good point, happy in privacy while brewing potions, even I can imagine


Delightful Task! - Mar 21, 2005 6:38 am (#1371 of 2980)
This question might become an important one in the last books though ... I believe chapter titles are important clues, and as you remember, we only know about Snape's "worst memory"...


Hollywand - Mar 21, 2005 8:43 am (#1372 of 2980)
Snape's happiness is probably considerably different than the joy of, say, Gilderoy Lockhart.

Happiness that his treasured potions stocks are filled and acquired.

Happiness that he received the Order of Merlin.

Happiness that he brewed the brew to "stopper death" when few others had the patience or skill to manage.

I bet Snape's will be one memorable Patronus.


Solitaire - Mar 21, 2005 9:01 am (#1373 of 2980)
he´s happy being mean to others: 100 points from Gryffindor! Expecto Patronum!

Right on, Cornelia! That would be my guess. I think he must be able to produce some sort of Patronus. Didn't Jo say we would learn the forms his Patronus and his boggart took in books 6 & 7?

Solitaire


Elanor - Mar 21, 2005 9:45 am (#1374 of 2980)
As I see Snape, I think that one of the things he fears the most is to be weak or, even worse, that people should think he is weak. And he certainly thinks that love, and hapiness, are weaknesses. They are weaknesses because when you love, when you're happy, you're afraid to lose what you have. Emotionally, Snape has nothing he could be afraid to lose.

He hates the marauders, and Harry, but no ennemy would want to take that from him. I think it is the only way he feels secure: he doesn't care for anything Voldemort, or anyone else, would be able to affect him through it. I think the way he doesn't care about his appearance is very revealing. He is self-focused on his task and he cares about his appearance, and what common people should think about him, as he cares about his first cauldron! He wants to be recognized for what the great wizard he is does but has no desire to please or be liked.

But I agree, he certainly feels some pleasure in potion making and bullying kids. I can't help but think his patronus should be a kind of crow... Why isn't it July 16th yet???


Choices - Mar 21, 2005 9:54 am (#1375 of 2980)
Severus' appearence is interesting. It seems to only be his hair that he neglects. As a 15 year old, we know he wore "gray" underware, but since the school laundry is responsible for that (I'm guessing) it really wasn't Severus that was to blame for that. Who knows? But, now as an adult, his clothes are not described as shabby or stained, we aren't told his shoes need a shine, he doesn't seem to have body odor or need to shave - it is only his hair that needs washing. It seems odd that he would be OK in everything else, but let his hair go. I hope we find out why.


mooncalf - Mar 21, 2005 11:39 am (#1376 of 2980)
Interesting point, Choices, although as the mother of a twelve-year-old who is reasonably clean but hates to wash his hair, I don't find it too difficult to comprehend. Maybe it's just another adolescent thing that he never outgrew. And she does also mention the sorry state of Snape's teeth.

To what Elanor said, I think that Snape does receive a certain amount of pleasure from bullying kids, but I don't think that he finds real happiness from it. Snape's a nasty guy, but he is no sociopath. I believe that somewhere, deep down, he does have a normal human need for affection, but he has buried it, stomped it down and denied that it ever existed out of fear of being hurt. People who are that defensive have usually been treated pretty badly by life.

As to what he would think of to conjure a patronus- that is a fascinating question. I would guess that he harbors a happy memory of either some personal accomplishment or of some person - Dumbledore is the most likely - who treated him well and accepted him for who he is.


Gina R Snape - Mar 21, 2005 1:05 pm (#1377 of 2980)
Hollywand, I just wanted to point out that Snape did not receive an Order of Merlin. So he couldn't be happy about that...


Hollywand - Mar 21, 2005 1:36 pm (#1378 of 2980)
Well aware of that Gina, just speculating for humour. He hasn't brewed a potion to defeat the Dark Lord, either.


Dumbledore - Mar 21, 2005 2:11 pm (#1379 of 2980)
Mooncalf, I love your analysis! I agree with it whole-heartedly.

Do we actually have any evidence that the Marauders scene in the Pensieve was indeed his worst memory. Of course, that's what the chapter title said, but I always got the inclination that Harry stumbled upon an embarrassing and emotionally straining memory involving Snape and his father, and Snape reacted really angrily. However, we know that Snape's parents fought a lot, and we know that he has a very dark past with the Death Eaters and a lot of stuff we don't even know about, that his actual worst memory, if faced with a dementor, would be something different. I'm sure this has been discussed before and I'm sorry for brining it up again if it has.


Ponine - Mar 21, 2005 2:46 pm (#1380 of 2980)
Severus could have a scalp condition that caused him to set his hair in with oils, his hair can, like a cook's, be retaining oils or - something from potionmaking, you know, but what it all boils down to is that it makes him even less palatable and attractive to other people - whether he is semi-aware of it and intentionally keeps it that way, or actually is 'a victim' of bad hair.

Furthermore, when I read about his grey underwar, that means several things to me: No one cares enough about him to get him new ones. he has no mother who always fusses about the state of socks and underwear, and he has no grandmothers and aunts who sends him underwear for Christmas. His underwear is old and well-worn. Furthermore, I think it indicates a boy who has fended for himself for quite some time, that his undies have been washed with other colors, and that he really has had no one teach him how to do laundry, or take care of himself properly (compare both hair, teeth and underwear). Poor little Severus Sad


Albus Silente - Mar 21, 2005 3:31 pm (#1381 of 2980)
Harry stumbled upon an embarrassing and emotionally straining memory involving Snape and his father,... (Dumbledore)

But are we really sure that Harry stumbled upon it?
Why did Snape put it in the pensieve in the first line? To make Harry find it "illegally" and then have a go on him? Or to tease him with how arrogant (and so on) his father was so Harry could get angry because he didn't believe? Does Snape like if other people are angry with him? Or does HE want to rage at others?


Choices - Mar 21, 2005 5:30 pm (#1382 of 2980)
This was discussed previously and I think we came to the conclusion that Snape did not intend for Harry to see that memory. Even to reveal to Harry something about James' personality that was not attractive, Snape would never have revealed something so personal and humiliating about himself in the process.


Solitaire - Mar 21, 2005 6:36 pm (#1383 of 2980)
I'm sure some have indeed come to that conclusion, Choices, but not everyone agrees. Well, I certainly do not, anyway. Despite others' certainty about Snape's loyalties, I continue to question them--and his motives. Then again, I am not a Snape fan.

Solitaire


Puck - Mar 21, 2005 7:02 pm (#1384 of 2980)
Hello, I'm new so mot sure if this has been discussed, but do you think Snape really gave Umbridge Veritiserum to use on Harry? We don't really know, as Harry was smart enough to dump it. Harry couldn't not have given away the secret location, but had so much other information on the Order, including who was involved.


Solitaire - Mar 21, 2005 7:11 pm (#1385 of 2980)
That is the $64,000 question, Puck. He says he did, and Dumbledore believes him ... but is he telling the truth? I really go around and around (like the proverbial snake chasing his tail ) when it comes to my feelings about Snape. I can't work out whether he is honorable or a really good double agent.

As far as Harry revealing the location of the Order ... I'm not sure how that works. Dumbledore told Harry that Kreacher was not able to reveal that information, because he was not the Secret-Keeper for the Order. Would the same thing apply to Harry--even under Veritaserum--since he is also not the Secret-Keeper? It's a question I've always wondered ... and it applies to others who knew where the Potters lived, too. **sigh** It makes my head hurt!

Solitaire


I Am Used Vlad - Mar 21, 2005 7:14 pm (#1386 of 2980)
Puck, I'm pretty sure Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape gave Umbridge fake Veritaserum in near the end of OotP.


Gina R Snape - Mar 21, 2005 7:39 pm (#1387 of 2980)
Wow. It has never crossed my mind that Snape would give real veritaserum. NEVER. For one thing, he doesn't offer it up a second time when Umbridge asked for it. For another, there are plenty of things Harry knows which he would not want Umbridge to know. For a third, Snape has absolutely no allegiance to Umbridge so no reason to help her *at all.* For a fourth, we are meant to believe what Dumbledore tells us. Things that come ouf ot DD's and Hermione's mouths are things we generally can rely on--per JKR in an interview. And DD confirms it was fake veritaserum in an effort to prove Snape was trying to help.

And those are above and beyond the fact that I do believe Snape is working for DD.

How is it that people's doubt can run so deep? Not liking him is one thing. But doubt to this level is just mindboggling to me.

Oh well, the truth will out and my beloved Snape will be redeemed to all, I am sure.


Weeny Owl - Mar 21, 2005 8:31 pm (#1388 of 2980)
However, we know that Snape's parents fought a lot,

Actually we don't know that. We know that there was one scene where it appeared his father was berating his mother and he was crying. We can reason that that scene was the norm for Mama and Papa Snape, but there is no exact and specific evidence that they fought "a lot."

We have no way of knowing if Snape has happy memories or not since we see him only through Harry's eyes. We know his relationship with Sirius. We know he isn't too fond of Lupin. We know he has reasons for his opinions of them. We know he is as bad as Sirius in seeing Harry as James instead of Harry being his own person. We don't really know how he interacts with other students, their parents, his co-workers, his superiors, or pretty much anyone else.

We can come up with theories based on one or two lines out of five books. We can assume that when JKR shows us one thing one time it applies throughout the books. But... there is no concrete proof that he has no happy memories, or that everyone hates him, or that he is deceiving Dumbledore, or that anything else we come up with is the absolute truth.

Personally I feel that Snape would NEVER in a million years want Harry to see him being humiliated regardless of how bad James looked in the process. Snape was too angry for it to be planned.

I think Snape is walking a fine line. Phineas Nigellus said that Slytherins would always save their own necks or something like that. I do honestly believe Snape wants Voldemort defeated, but I also think that his actions are precise and deliberate just in case Voldemort wins. I do think he's genuinely working for Dumbledore, but that the Slytherin in him is doing its best to make sure he survives regardless of which side wins.


Gina R Snape - Mar 21, 2005 9:28 pm (#1389 of 2980)
I think Snape is walking a fine line. Phineas Nigellus said that Slytherins would always save their own necks or something like that. I do honestly believe Snape wants Voldemort defeated, but I also think that his actions are precise and deliberate just in case Voldemort wins. I do think he's genuinely working for Dumbledore, but that the Slytherin in him is doing its best to make sure he survives regardless of which side wins.

Oh, that last bit is very well put, Weeny.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Mar 22, 2005 12:31 am (#1390 of 2980)
"However, we know that Snape's parents fought a lot,", Dumbledore I would love to see that proof in print. The scene depicts adults, but not who. For all we know Snape may have been adopted, raised in an orphanage, we are not told who has made this lasting impression on him.

Spot on Weeney, some might say sitting on the fence, but my minds eye see's a bat hanging upside down from that rail! ;-0


Delightful Task! - Mar 22, 2005 1:31 am (#1391 of 2980)
Coming back to Snape's "worst memory"... What I find interesting in chapter titles is the fact that they give an orientation to our reading. There are three chapter titles that I like very much and two are "about Snape"... I like "The Servant of Lord Voldemort" (ch 19), in PoA, which begins... with Snape revealing himself from under the invisibility Cloak; I also like "Snape's worst memory", because I think we might discover it is indeed Snape's worst memory which was in the pensieve, but perhaps not for the reason Harry thinks it is... Both chapters are part of the reason why I don't entirely trust Snape. Of course, you can tell me JKR is playing with the reader at the beginning of PoA chapter 19, she wants us to believe Snape is "the servant of Lord Voldemort", and eventually, of course, we discover it's Peter Pettigrew... But, at that moment in the book, we rather hesitate between Sirius and Peter... I like to think perhaps at the end of book 7, when we read everything again, we'll think, "there was a clue there"... For the same reason, I like to think we haven't understood yet why what is in the pensieve is Snape's worst memory. (I think JKR herself gives the chapter titles, and if SHE says it's his wort memory, then it is...) And to conclude, I think Snape's character becomes far less interesting if we believe he's a nice guy after all and will help Harry and DD whatever happens... I prefer his ambiguity! That's why it's so much fun to read about him!


Cornelia - Mar 22, 2005 2:54 am (#1392 of 2980)
Isn´t the worst memory different for everybody? Things that knock out one person don´t do anything to others.

In the Pensieve he was one more time on the passive side, something was done to him, in the memories we see before he was left alone, someone laught at him and he had to watch a grown ups (verbal) fight and couldn´t do anything. In that line of incidents the pensieve scene is is really the worst.

I think as long he can do something, he´s quite predictable. But if he´s pressed into passivity again he´ll maybe explode.

And because I think he´s at the moment working and spying for Dumbledore, the one who will do this to him will be most likely Voldemort, and therefore I think Harry and the Order have a strong combatant who will do the best he can and fight hard to avoid being forced into passivity again.

You are right when you say he´s working for himself, too. He is trying to get the most out of it. But he changed sides, that is what counts (if you believe he has, what I do).

Arrgh, he´s so comlicated...can´t it be July?


Potions Mistress - Mar 22, 2005 8:30 am (#1393 of 2980)
It is Snape's ambiguity that has everyone all twisted in knots, but I seriously doubt that HBP will do much to "untie" us. Sure, JKR will probably give us more background on Snape, but we'll just discuss and dissect *that* until we're all knotted up again! LOL.

(Personally, I'm rooting for "The Snape Chronicles" after the HP series. ;-) )

~pm


mooncalf - Mar 22, 2005 9:11 am (#1394 of 2980)
I agree, Potions Mistress; I don't think that we'll get the Ultimate Answer to Snape will be in book six. His ambiguity is too useful as a literary device.

I still think that ultimately we'll learn that he is definitely on the side of good, but I don't think that he'll get any nicer. He'd probably hate having Harry and crew know that they can count on him in a pinch so much that he'll be even nastier to them.

Learning his motivations won't turn him into Santa Claus! :-)


Puck - Mar 22, 2005 10:10 am (#1395 of 2980)
I do believe that Snape is true to DD and the cause. I guess I wondered about the Veritiserum because Snape would have been torn between his work for the order and his desire to "get" Harry and Sirus. I don't think he would do anything to physically hurt Harry -he has proven otherwise- but, he loves a chance to humiliate him. I had forgotten that DD said it was fake at the end of OotP. (my book is currently on loan.)

Sirius told Harry that the world is not divided into good wizards and death eaters, though my guess is some walk a fine line. But after Umbridge, snape seems pretty warm and fuzzy!


Snuffles - Mar 22, 2005 1:35 pm (#1396 of 2980)
I'm not sure I see Snape staying with DD out of loyalty, I see it more as an obligation. DD has something over on Snape and Snape is obliged to help him. Snape after all was a Slytherin and is head of Slytherin house, he looks after No1. Once Harry has defeated LV I'm not sure Snape will hang around. IMO he believes DD is the winning team and wants to be a player that helped destroy LV. Once that has happened he will have no more obligation to DD or the students at Hogwarts. His cloak will swish and all that will be seen is a bat flying from the castle!


Dumbledore - Mar 22, 2005 3:31 pm (#1397 of 2980)
Oops, my mistake. We really have no evidence that Snape's parents fought a lot. I've been having a long week... *mutters to self and grabs butterbeer*


Amilia Smith - Mar 22, 2005 9:38 pm (#1398 of 2980)
Cornelia: I really like the idea that Snape does not like to be forced into passivity. That the memories he dwells on and hates are the ones in which he had no control over his fate is a very astute observation. It explains why he must have control over his classes at all costs. Why he was so upset over losing the Order of Merlin through no act of his own. Possibly why he left the Death Eaters (LV commands, the minions obey, no back talk or independent thinking allowed).

Mills.


Delightful Task! - Mar 23, 2005 1:40 am (#1399 of 2980)
Good point Cornelia! the worst memories could be the ones of when he's not in control. And, Amilia Smith, that's exactly the reason why I think Snape left the DEs!

Actually, I saw another possibility in the Pensieve _ I thought perhaps it could have to do with his feelings for Lily... That may be stupid, but one of the possibilities could be that he was in love with Lily but hated to admit it. Then, that "worst memory" would be a confuse feeling of shame... Shame of having been humiliated in front of the one he loved, added to the shame and regret of having insulted Lily, and hatred towards James who ended up as the hero... In a nutshell, something you really don't want to remember, and something you clearly don't want the others to know... One of those moments when you clearly hate yourself for being what you are! (feel free to throw the dungbombs!)


eifmp - Mar 23, 2005 7:35 am (#1400 of 2980)
Severus Snape is a great character. He is ambiguous and witty and snide and cruel. I have heard some arguments about Snape liking control of his fate and it rings true. He said something along the lines of 'People who cannot control thier emotions, who proudly wear thier hearts on thier sleeve, are weak and will stand no chance against the Dark Lord.' Whether Snape likes it or not he must be a closed person to be a sucessful spy, a job that is so vital to the Order. I think he'll die though. Just my humble opinion.
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Post  Mona on Thu May 26, 2011 3:21 am

Solitaire - Mar 23, 2005 9:55 am (#1401 of 2980)
I agree, Snuffles. I think Snape is at Hogwarts for a couple of reasons. Assuming he is what he claims to be, I think he is there as much for his own safety--rather like Trelawney--as anything else. In the Pensieve scene in GoF, Dumbledore mentioned that "he turned spy for us, at great personal risk." So it sounds like Hogwarts is also a refuge for him.

Snape clearly does not like being around kids. He treats them with disdain--if not open hostility--as an annoyance that must be borne. If he survives, I expect he will tender his resignation from Hogwarts and embark upon some career more suitable to his temperament--although what that might be I cannot imagine. He is certainly a skilled and knowledgeable wizard, but his people skills are poor. It would be interesting to know what he really would like to do--other than teaching DADA. And I agree that he is not a good candidate for that post.

Solitaire


Puck - Mar 23, 2005 12:23 pm (#1402 of 2980)
Oh, Delightful Task, cheers to you for being brave enough to say what I have often thought -that Snape (and Remus as well, for that matter) had feelings for Lily. It could be that he sees her in Harry as well as James, and that's just too much for him. They say anger is a by-product of fear. Snape must be very fearful. Other than losing control, I'd say his big one is not measuring up.


Potions Mistress - Mar 23, 2005 1:28 pm (#1403 of 2980)
I agree that should Snape live, he'll most likely leave Hogwarts. I can imagine him going on solitary travels--well, Gina would probably be with him ;-)--but I can't imagine him working very closely wiht people for any extended period of time.

~pm


GryffEndora - Mar 23, 2005 1:56 pm (#1404 of 2980)
I've also wondered if Snape had feelings for Lily. It certainly wouldn't be anything he would feel comfortable about expressing, especially to a "mud-blood". His attraction to someone with, in his opinion, poor purity of blood may have even made him feel weak or that he would appear weak to his peers. Couple that with the fact that perfect James Potter ends up winning her love and I'd say there are some great reasons Sev has such a hate on for Harry.


Choices - Mar 23, 2005 2:54 pm (#1405 of 2980)
Maybe Snape hated himself for being attracted to a "mudblood". I'm not sure I believe he had a crush on Lily, but I have to admit it's possible.


MickeyCee3948 - Mar 23, 2005 9:05 pm (#1406 of 2980)
Solitaire and Potions Mistress I too have wondered what Snape would do if he ever left Hogwarts. Could I put forth a few possible careers. Head Master at the Marquis de Sade School of Sadism. Dance instructor at the London branch of Arthur Murray and last but not least a motivational speaker for Dale Caregie.

Mikie


Potions Mistress - Mar 23, 2005 9:56 pm (#1407 of 2980)
LOL Mikie! How about...horse whisperer?

~pm


Solitaire - Mar 23, 2005 10:52 pm (#1408 of 2980)
LOL Mikie!! I love them all. Thanks for the giggle! As for the Horse Whisperer, PM ... I think that's a career to which Hagrid is far better suited. Snape might enjoy being a tax inspector or an insurance investigator. Both would provide him with lots of opportunities to bully and insult people. I think he'd enjoy that.

Solitaire


Delightful Task! - Mar 24, 2005 2:18 am (#1409 of 2980)
Ooooo, poor Snape! We shouldn't be making fun of him that way! After all, Dumbledore trusts him, therefore we should too! (he he!) Actually, Snape won't have to leave Hogwarts, since Harry will leave the school at the end of book seven anyway... I suppose he could stay! What fun it would be for him to teach potions to Harry's children!

(Puck, I had never thought of Remus being in love with Lily... Well, I suppose I'll have to read the books again!)


septentrion - Mar 24, 2005 2:49 am (#1410 of 2980)
I'm not sure Snape is at Hogwarts for security reasons. After all, he goes out for the Order : he comes to 12GP, and not by apparating but by ringing at the door. And if his job is to find out what LV tells his Death Eaters, I doubt he could do this from Hogwarts.

As for a career somewhere else, I can picture him running his own shop in Knockturn Alley.

I'm not convinced he was in love with Lily, yet like Choices, I have to take the idea into consideration, unless Jo tells us otherwise. And there's no canon evidence Remus felt anything for Lily. It's movie contamination, although it could be real.


Gina R Snape - Mar 24, 2005 6:46 am (#1411 of 2980)
Head Master at the Marquis de Sade School of Sadism.

I think I read a fanfic like that once. :evil grin:

As for Snape going to 12GP. Aside from the convenience of reporting to the whole Order at once, I think DD had Snape go to 12GP for the sheer principle of the matter. It was a way, once again, of DD trying to make the point that Snape and Sirius were supposed to be on the same side...so they better get used to being in each others' presence.


Puck - Mar 24, 2005 8:01 am (#1412 of 2980)
Did anyone apparate to #12? Is it possible to do so in a protected location? My copy of book 5 is on loan, so I can't look it up, but I can't remember anyone arriving that way, or by floo powder either, for that matter.

I wonder how Snape would be collecting this kind of information for the order. It seemed to me from the end of GoF that Voldemort now knows that Snape has switched sides, so he can't exactly work from the inside.

Delightful Task, I am posting my thoughts about Lupin on that thread.


septentrion - Mar 24, 2005 8:27 am (#1413 of 2980)
I don't remember anyone coming to 12GP by apparating, yet it's possible to apparate inside the house, as the twins demonstrated it so often.


Choices - Mar 24, 2005 8:51 am (#1414 of 2980)
We do know it is possible to arrive by port-key inside Grimmauld Place. When Dumbledore sent the kids after the attack on Arthur by the snake, they arrived right inside the kitchen.

I'm not sure I understand why Snape goes to Grimmauld Place. He could simply report to Dumbledore at Hogwarts, but for some reason he goes to Grimmauld Place to make reports to the whole group. I'm sure that serves some purpose, but exactly what that is I don't know. It states Snape never eats there with the others, so the reason he goes isn't social. Even McGonagall goes there on occasion - again, I don't know why or what she needs to report that she couldn't just tell Dumbledore when she sees him at Hogwarts.


Gina R Snape - Mar 24, 2005 9:04 am (#1415 of 2980)
Well, aside from the reasons I suggested above, Choices, it could be that DD wants Order information to only be discussed at 12GP for whatever reason. (Portrait gossip, perhaps?).


Solitaire - Mar 24, 2005 4:29 pm (#1416 of 2980)
That first night when Harry arrived at GP, hadn't they all been waiting for Snape to arrive--for something important he had to tell them? One reason for discussing an issue with several people instead of just Dumbledore is that--like in any business meeting--different heads bring different responses, questions, solutions, perspectives, etc., to the table. Dumbledore may be in charge and he may be brilliant, but he can't think of everything, can he? If he could do it all, he wouldn't really need the Order, would he?

I also agree with Gina (Oh, no! Not again! This is getting scary!) that, since Severus and Sirius are working on the same side at long last, Dumbledore probably felt it was time they stopped acting like a couple of snarly teenagers and started cooperating. He may have even felt that if Harry and the kids saw Snape and Sirius working together on the same side, they might begin to perceive Snape as part of the Order, someone who could be trusted his absence ... although we see how well that worked.

Solitaire

PS I have also wondered if all those portraits could be trusted. What if PN had a portrait in the Malfoy household? Might he go there and spill the beans? Just wondering ...


Choices - Mar 24, 2005 5:23 pm (#1417 of 2980)
If I remember correctly, all the portraits are sworn to render service to the present Headmaster. If any one of them betrayed that trust, I'm sure one of the other portraits would notice and tell on them. They all got quite irate when PN didn't want to do what Dumbledore asked him.


Ponine - Mar 24, 2005 5:27 pm (#1418 of 2980)
Choices - I was just thinking about that, but I am afraid the words 'bound by honor' were mentioned in there somewhere, which I remember thinking was not much, considering the prospects.


Gina R Snape - Mar 24, 2005 6:26 pm (#1419 of 2980)
They are bound to the Headmaster. But does include his workings in the Order? Or does it solely apply to Hogwarts business? That's what I'm wondering.

And yes, Solitaire, this is getting scary!


mooncalf - Mar 24, 2005 7:43 pm (#1420 of 2980)
And maybe it includes only the portraits in the headmaster's office, and not necessarily every image of past headmasters. Portraits located elsewhere may not be honor-bound by anything.

And I love the idea of Snape running a shop. I have no doubt that it would be renowned for its superior customer service. Imagine Snape's responses to the following queries from customers:

"I'd like a refund on this. It doesn't work"

"Which of these looks better on me?"

"Is this potion easy to make?"

"Good morning."

And of course, "I'd like to buy a gift for an eleven-year-old boy. Do you have any suggestions?"


Gina R Snape - Mar 25, 2005 7:28 am (#1421 of 2980)
LOL, nice one.


T Brightwater - Mar 25, 2005 6:03 pm (#1422 of 2980)
If there are research fellowships for potion-makers, Snape would be a natural.

Various people have said they wouldn't like to see Snape turn warm and fuzzy; I don't think it's in his nature. But I could see a grown-up Snape (as opposed to the stuck adolescent he is at the moment, in terms of his emotional development) being rather like Prof. Mc Gonagall, only with a somewhat more acid wit. Nobody would accuse McG of being warm and fuzzy, but she isn't nasty and unfair either.


Puck - Mar 26, 2005 8:03 am (#1423 of 2980)
I agree that Snape's biggest problem is his inability to move beyond his past. Voldemort also harbors resentment based on his back ground, and I'm sure Umbridge has a few demons to exorsise. What we really need is a WW version of Dr. Phil.

"Severus what happened to you was wrong. It wasn't your fault, you don't own that, but you do have a choice now. Don't let them continue to have power over you. Take back your power. Change your internal dialogue."


Delightful Task! - Mar 26, 2005 10:10 am (#1424 of 2980)
I'm a bit late on that point, but I think one of the reasons why the members of the OoPmeet at 12GP is that they are on the side of Good! Basically, Dumbledore is not a dictator giving orders while the others obey... They fight together, help each other, freely, and as equals, and they trust one another too. Snape goes to 12GP because he is a member, just like the others. I can't imagine DD at the center, knowing everything and sharing only the information he wants... and as you said Solitaire, the others can help you discover different perspectives on a subject... (Isn't it what we are doing here on this forum by the way?!) They are not DEs... they don't hide behind masks and hoods, they are not punished if they make a mistake...

Moreover, I don't think the other members of the Order consider Snape as someone "special"... The kids and Sirius give much importance to the "nasty" part of Snape. But is it the case for Molly of Arthur, or Tonks? I think the other "grown ups" don't really seem to be aware or to give much importance to Snape's character. So why shouldn't he be present at the meetings?

About the portraits, I think they CANNOT be trusted! some are more reliable than others of course, but they seem to have the character of their model... Just imagine a portrait of Rita Skeeter!!!


Solitaire - Mar 26, 2005 1:17 pm (#1425 of 2980)
Delightful Task, I was talking specifically about the portraits in Dumbledore's office being trustworthy. Those tend to be mainly portraits of former school heads, I believe. Of course, one could never trust a pic of Rita, but then I can't imagine a scenario in which she would ever have a portrait at Hogwarts. I was thinking mainly of Phineas Nigellus ... and any other head who might support the Slytherin philosophy. I rather doubt that any of the heads--save possibly Salazar Slytherin--would have supported Voldemort himself ... although I could be quite wrong about that.

Solitaire


Potions Mistress - Mar 26, 2005 6:26 pm (#1426 of 2980)
Delightful Task, thank you for pointing out the fact that we don't see much reaction on the parts of Molly, Tonks, etc. to Snape's nastiness. I think this due to a couple of reasons 1) We're seeing Snape through Harry's eyes 2) there is obviously no love lost between Harry and Snape and we mainly see that antagonism 3) I doubt Snape has much reason to be overly nasty to Molly, et al--if anything, it would probably be detrimental to the Order. This does not make him warm and fuzzy--I can't see him comforting Molly after the boggart episode, but it does give a veiled hint to some other dimensions of Snape.

~pm


Weeny Owl - Mar 27, 2005 12:48 am (#1427 of 2980)
I can see Snape comforting Molly, but not necessarily hugging her. I could see him listing things that were being done to protect the students at Hogwarts and to protect the members of the Order. I could see him, even if he cringed inside, assuring her that Ron and Ginny would be taken care of. I could see him using logic to reassure her even if he didn't do anything warm and fuzzy.


Delightful Task! - Mar 27, 2005 1:09 pm (#1428 of 2980)



Gina R Snape - Mar 27, 2005 7:01 am (#1429 of 2980)
I think Snape sneered about Mrs. Norris because he is not fond of Mrs. Norris. But I agree with what Weeny Owl said. Snape's brand of comfort would be somewhat Hermione-ish. To start listing reasons why her concerns were unwarranted, or ways in which her concerns were being taken care off. But he would not sugarcoat anything.

Though it would seem cruel, it's true that there are risks and Mrs. Weasley's concerns are wholly legitimate. So addressing her concerns would be a much more practical and realist approach in Snape's mind, instead of saying "There, there, it'll be ok" which would seem weak and absurd to him.


Dumbledore - Mar 27, 2005 8:11 am (#1430 of 2980)
I agree, Gina and Weeny Owl. I can see Snape comforting Molly in more of a back-handed type of way. Not necessarily going all out and hugging her, but saying truthful and honest things that assuage her doubts. Sure Snape isn't a warm and fuzzy person, so I can't see him lending his shoulder for Molly to cry on, but he is not entirely cold and heartless either to just sneer at her because she is expressing emotions. Snape is in the Order as much as, if not more than, anybody (if he is in fact a spy), and certainly knows the dangers involved.


haymoni - Mar 27, 2005 9:08 am (#1431 of 2980)
I think Snape may not even be aware of Molly's exact contributions to the Order. We have no way of knowing how many people are actually in the Order, so she just may be a familiar face - a mother of some students that he has taught - and after having Fred & George as students, he may think she's lost her touch after Bill, Charlie & Percy. Goodness knows Ron is hopeless. Except for 1 mention of being on duty for the Order, we've only seen Molly in a Chief Cook & Bottle Washer role for the Order.

Snape doesn't come in and hang out at #12 like some of the other members do. Minerva does the same thing, but I think she has to keep her nose clean because of her postition at Hogwarts and her obvious loyalty to Dumbledore.

Snape, on the other hand, is just a teacher. He's busy playing his double agent role. He is quite proud of his involvement, as he shows as much to Harry - "That's YOUR job, isn't it." "Yes it is."

The other members seem to think he is pretty important - or maybe valuable is a better word - their reaction to him coming to #12 when Harry first gets there is almost worship-like.

Snape is a kind of Mr. Spock - a Vulcan-like character - more concerned with fact & logic than emotion. I think he would see an emotional outburst of any kind as a lack of discipline.


Delightful Task! - Mar 27, 2005 10:34 am (#1432 of 2980)
I think he would see an emotional outburst of any kind as a lack of discipline.

I agree with you haymony, and I still don't think Snape would comfort Molly. I think he doesn't know how to do such a thing! Do we have any proof that he ever comforted anyone? And after all, no one ever comforted him I'm sure (apart from you Gina, of course!)

I don't want Snape to be too nice... I really like him when he's really horrible! One of the reasons for that is that I really hope some people are real real gits, but they will be able to make the right choices when it's really important. In a way, I put all my hope for humanity into Snape!


Gina R Snape - Mar 27, 2005 11:23 am (#1433 of 2980)
Snape seems fully aware of what's going on at the house. He pushes Sirius' buttons regarding the house cleaning. But the fact is, without Molly 12GP would not be a suitable place to inhabit or meet. And someone has got to be in charge of the children.

Snape will be aware of the fact that her husband and older children are in the Order as well. I do not think he's oblivious to her position and contributions, even if they are not the most glamourous or dangerous.

While I wonder if Molly is insulted by the fact that he does not stay for dinner, she might be relieved to have one less mouth to feed. He is not the only Order member who doesn't stay for meals or socialising. But it would be great to see Snape through somebody else's eyes beside Harry in future books.


Weeny Owl - Mar 27, 2005 11:53 am (#1434 of 2980)
I adore cats. I've been a cat lover all my life. Mrs. Norris is a cat of a different sort. She is more of a watch cat in the school, and she lets Flch know when a student is doing something. Filch's personality is horrid, but her personality is just as horrid.

Seeing Snape somewhat amused when Mrs. Norris was petrified isn't really a mean thing. He didn't make it obvious, he didn't laugh out loud, he didn't taunt Filch. He just seemed amused.

If he had encountered Molly viewing dead bodies, I don't think he would be amused at all, and while he might not like emotion, I can truly see him explaining in a logical way why her fears are unfounded for the most part. No hugs, naturally, but definitely reassurance that her family would be taken care of should something happen to her and Arthur.

I agree totally with Gina about seeing him through someone else's eyes.


Delightful Task! - Mar 27, 2005 12:05 pm (#1435 of 2980)
Of course, Weeny Owl, but in that passage with Mrs Norris, DD and McGonagal are really preoccupied, Filch is as upset as Molly when she saw the boggart I suppose, and Snape stands aside and sneers... I don't blame him, because I like the fact that he was able to see the ironic side of the scene. But on the other hand, Molly didn't really see dead bodies there, this was just a boggart,and she hadn't been able to handle it... For me, Snape would have no pity for that kind of behaviour. I think he has no grudge against Molly in particular, so he wouldn't say anything openly, but nevertheless, I think he is a deeply horrible person who is unable to understand that kind of thing.


Solitaire - Mar 27, 2005 12:29 pm (#1436 of 2980)
I don't like him either, Delightful Task. As to seeing him through anyone else's eyes ... this is Harry's story, so we see everyone and everything through his eyes. We do get a glimpse of Snape now and then through Dumbledore's eyes ... but I think Dumbledore has lost ground with Harry recently. It will be interesting to see whether and how he regains it, because if Harry loses faith in Dumbledore ... well, I don't want to think about the consequences.

Solitaire


Lina - Mar 27, 2005 1:32 pm (#1437 of 2980)
I hope you will forgive me for going several posts to the past and mention dementors again. Sirius said to Harry that the thought that he was innocent was not a happy thought, so dementors couldn't take it away from him and that kept him from going insane. I can imagine Snape being satisfied, but not exactly being happy. If he has no happy thoughts, are dementors able to hurt him at all? He was a DE and we know that Voldemort likes to take dementors as allies, so it is possible that he had to spend a lot of time in dementors' company. His total absence of emotions and happiness as well, might be his way of protecting himself from dementors that he doesn't want to give up.

He became a totally closed person who doesn't want any of his feelings to be seen. What really made him develop it, was it unhappy childhood, abusive environment, life with DEs or something else or all of this together, I hope we will find out. But I think that any kind of making him show his positive emotions would lead to a total nervous break down. I don't think anybody of us would want to see it. There is no way he could become kind, hopefully, just a little bit less bitter.


Potions Mistress - Mar 27, 2005 4:41 pm (#1438 of 2980)
I think he is a deeply horrible person who is unable to understand that kind of thing. --Delightful Task<i/>

I agree that he is unable to understand the emotions that Molly felt upon seeing her dead family/boggart. That is why I don't see him offering comfort to anyone. Yes, while he may starting listing off reasons and ways people are being protected, etc., I think this would be more of a subtler way of telling someone to get ahold of themselves.

~pm


Dumbledore - Mar 27, 2005 4:49 pm (#1439 of 2980)
Delightful Task, I really don't think that he is a deeply horrible person. Like Lina said, he has had a lot of emotional struggle in the past, and that has made him bitter. But I don't think that he is simply a cold and thoughtless person, which is why I can see him try to at least assuage some of the doubts of someone who is on the same side as him. Snape is a bitter person who can sometimes be cruel and unfair toward Harry and other Gryffindors. But he is not a heartless person. I don't think (and certainly don't want) Snape to suddenly become a "nice" person, but I see it in his character to try to assuage the doubts of someone like Molly, in whatever way he thinks that would not betray the sort of emotional barrier he's put up around himself as a result of his past.


Ponine - Mar 27, 2005 6:12 pm (#1440 of 2980)
Dumbledore - I cannot help but ask - on what exactly are you basing your statement "..he is not a heartless person"??? We have seen Snape angry, bitter, resentful, smirking, cool, with spitballs flying, sneering, waspish, neither of traits I think is particularly indicative of having a heart. The only feelings we have ever heard or seen Snape express are feelings of resentment and irritation, none of the "weaker emotions" such as fear, regret, joy or delight. I guess feelings are for sissies. I tend to agree that he would drily spit out some factual reasoning of semi-solace to Molly, but only, as having been said, to indirectly insinuate that she ought to compose herself.

And while I know this is out of the blue - did we ever establish why Snap never went to Dumbledore about Quirell? How can Dumbledore fail to detect dining with Voldemort for almost a year?


Gina R Snape - Mar 27, 2005 8:20 pm (#1441 of 2980)
Well, I think when Snape's eyes 'glittered' at the end of GoF, it was an indication of excitement mingled with fear. And I interpret his question to Harry about the dog during occlumency lessons as a hint toward sympathy. I certainly found his motion toward McGonagall at the end of OOtP to demonstrate caring. Oh, and I nearly forgot Snape's concern that Crabbe (Goyle?) was nearly choking Neville Longbottom. He just said it in a most slytherin way.

And, we do not know what Snape and DD spoke about concerning Quirrell. Voldemort is crafty, but we'll never know for sure if they suspected or knew for certain he was living inside Quirrell.


Weeny Owl - Mar 27, 2005 8:25 pm (#1442 of 2980)
That's an excellent example of what I was trying to get across, Gina. Snape didn't want Neville dead, and he made his feelings obvious, even if it wasn't in a sweet and fluffy way. He isn't the Lockhart type, thank the stars, but in a crunch he comes through. I think if he had been present during the Molly/boggart scene, he would have done something similar to make the situation better without having to get sappy about it.


Delightful Task! - Mar 28, 2005 1:15 am (#1443 of 2980)
Waooo! I knew I was provoking some of you, but I didn't expect so many reactions!! Actually, I don't hate Snape... I rather like him in fact, but I like him because it's easier to like horrible persons when they are fictional! I agree that his character changes in book 5, and I really loved the way he talked to Crabbe when he wanted to help Neville...

But, I don't think it was possible to help Molly in a sarcastic way at that moment... I think there are times when Snape is completely unable to understand others, because he has shut his heart to certain feelings.

Of course, horrible people most of the time have excuses because they suffered a lot themselves ... But they're horrible nonetheless! And Snape is almost always horrible when we see him. I agree his intentions are certainly good when he deals with the Order, but communication is important too, and your way of dealing with people.

During those Occlumency lessons, I want to believe that Snape is really trying to help Harry, but he tries so hard to insult him and to disparage him that in the end, he is completely inefficient, or worse...

And Gina: "Did you see everything I saw?" [...] "Flashes of it, said Snape his lip curling. To whom did the dog belong?"

I rather think that in this passage, Snape shows Harry that he is not lying, he has indeed seen in Harry's mind. And he chooses the most humiliating image he's perceived (Marge's dog and the Dursleys laughing...). You really must be in love to believe it is a hint towards sympathy!!

But I want to believe in Snape anyway. I believe in the redemptive pattern. But I'm not sure Snape has really redeemed himself yet!


Lina - Mar 28, 2005 1:17 am (#1444 of 2980)
Ponine, I see fear in Snape all the time. Fear of showing emotions, fear of being loved, fear of loosing control and so on.

If he were a heartless person, why would he leave the DEs? I guess that you doubt he did it, but it is the fact that DD states so and I'm sure that he knows why.

Would a heartless person show Fudge his death mark at the end of the GoF? I think he wouldn't. To me, it is a proof that he is not a heartless person.

Edit: I love this forum for it's strict rules about behaviour, but I try to imagine several persons (including me) from this thread in live in some room discussing, and I think it would be really difficult to obey to the rules...


Delightful Task! - Mar 28, 2005 1:32 am (#1445 of 2980)
Well, Lina... If we all agreed, there would be no Snape thread!

But I 'm not sure Snape left the DEs because he had a heart. He could have left them because he can make a difference between what is Good and what is Evil. But you can be mean and nasty without being evil, according to me. When Snape is able to laugh of himself, perhaps then he'll be able to understand the others' flaws better...


Elanor - Mar 28, 2005 5:23 am (#1446 of 2980)
Delightful Task: "But I 'm not sure Snape left the DEs because he had a heart." I agree, I think he left because he has brains first, and a heart, maybe a bit rusty, but a heart nevertheless.

I find this sentence he said during the first occlumency lesson very revealing: "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily -weak people in other words- they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!" (OotP p.473). I always thought this could well be applied to a younger Snape, when he was facing Voldemort, and that that was a lesson life made him learn the hard way. This sentence has also for me a curious echo in DD's words "we fools who love".(p.739). I think Snape can't allow himself to love anyone, even not maybe himself, but this does not mean he has no heart, just that he has buried it the deepest he could to protect himself. Just my opinion, of course.


Potions Mistress - Mar 28, 2005 6:25 am (#1447 of 2980)
I certainly found his motion toward McGonagall at the end of OOtP to demonstrate caring. Oh, and I nearly forgot Snape's concern that Crabbe (Goyle?) was nearly choking Neville Longbottom. He just said it in a most slytherin way. --Gina

I won't argue with the point about McG, but I saw Snape's comment about Neville to be more of a way to proverbially thumb his nose at Umbridge, and Neville just happened to be saved from one of Malfoy's lackeys in the process.

About McG, I think that too demonstrates that there is more to Snape than what we usually see through Harry's eyes, but as far as redemption and whatnot goes, our Potions Master still has a looonnnnggg way to go.

~pm


Delightful Task! - Mar 28, 2005 6:28 am (#1448 of 2980)
Perhaps the problem is this definition of "having a heart"... It really seems to be the heart of the problem here too!!! Voldemort has no heart. Some even seem to think he has no "physical" or material heart. I agree Snape isn't like Voldemort. The problem is that of the result though. I think Snape tries so hard to ignore his heart _ because he believes as you said Elanor, that "he would stand no chance against Voldemort's powers" if he did not control his emotions _ that eventually, he makes terrible mistakes, and ends up actually acting as a heartless git with almost everyone.

I won't cry for poor Snape who has a heart but suffered so much when he was young that he feels he has to hide it. He's doing so much real harm to Harry, Hermione, Lupin, Sirius... We cannot ignore it. Sometimes he's just mean, but very often he is really cruel. Of course he would like Harry to become hard like him to protect him. But many things he did in the first 5 books were really difficult to forgive.

So OK, he certainly helped Harry, DD and the Order, he's certainly very funny to read, I'm sure there's more to him than meets the eye, but I won't pity him. After all, he has no pity for others and certainly doesn't want to be pitied!

I think DD's way of treating him is certainly the best. He respects him, he wants the others to respect him too. He doesn't want to change him and accepts him the way he is. Snape therefore, must respect DD in return, which is the best protection you can find against betrayal!

But Elanor, I like your idea that this sentence you quote is in fact what happened to younger Snape!


Ponine - Mar 28, 2005 6:34 am (#1449 of 2980)
Delightful task - I agree with a lot of your thoughts! Smile And Gina, I had to laugh at your post when it came to Snape rescuing Neville as *proof* of his heart/humanity/whatever. I think your defence of him is admirable, although I must question your objectivity in the matter... Wink

I guess I am way off in my interpretation of Snape, but I always considered Snape to really value honor. I believe that forever reason he did become a DE at one point, but I also firmly believe that he left Voldemort, once and for all. I think he has chosen to stand by Dumbledore, and will do so, regardless of the consequences. For all I know, part of his anomosity and anger may actually stem from self-loathing related to the event that made him leave the Ranks of DE. As far as Harry's dog incident is concerned, I think that Snape actually was a bit curious to see Harry's reaction to the event, but also that it gave Snape a glimpse of Harry's vulnerability that he probably did not want to see. It is hard to see a little boy suffer, and I think Snape may have felt a twinge of sympathy towards Harry, whether he wanted to or not. Of course, if it triggered some of his own not-so-Kodaky moments, his resentment towards Harry may have increased, or decreased, depending on whether he perceived Harry and himself to be a powerless little boy or a sorry little victim. Snape is fun!

Could he have been present or had something to do with Neville's parents? That could explain how the sight of Neville triggers him so immensely...?

I think Snape is an excellent, juicy character, whom I would whole-heartedly resent and pity if I ever met him in person. (And by the way, I think nothing is more disgusting to Snape than being pitied, ironically enough...)

Edit: We cross-posted, DT, and I still agree with so much of your thoughts, but obviously not the pitying part!! Smile Smile


Delightful Task! - Mar 28, 2005 6:53 am (#1450 of 2980)
As a matter of fact, Ponine, pity is not a feeling I like very much myself! I feel you have to feel very superior to people to pity them! But this is only my own personal interpretation and I understand anyone who would feel differently!

And why should we pity Snape by the way?!
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Hollywand - Mar 28, 2005 7:26 am (#1451 of 2980)
Elanor points out earlier, that Snape's strategy for human interaction is "better to be feared than pitied", a terrific observation.

Considering Snape in this light, Rowling gives the readers a window into those whose method is offense as a defensive strategy. The character deserves compassionate consideration and perhaps not pity, as Rowling suggests in the narrative. Harry still wants to know that his father treated Snape fairly, and he definitely has no love or pity for his mean teacher Snape.

Ironically, I imagine Severus cringing at the careful analysis of his psychology. I imagine he would say "fie and a pox on that!"


Ponine - Mar 28, 2005 7:53 am (#1452 of 2980)
DT - I don't think pity has much to do with feeling superior to someone, but rather of seeing someone or someone's predicament. Regardless of how he acts and what he does to the kids, I see Snape as a very sad and lonely man, who feels the need to defend himself offensively, if that makes sense, constantly. And because of his experiences, that has taught him to be so hateful, and for the fact that he seems unwilling or unable to live his life more constructively and enjoyable, I pity him. And Hollywand, I am sure this discussion would make him dry-heave... Smile


Gina R Snape - Mar 28, 2005 7:54 am (#1453 of 2980)
Yes, I doubt Snape would appreciate us picking apart his feelings and motivations. But...oh well!

And, Ponine, I don't see what's funny about Snape rescuing Neville. Ok, perhaps you don't agree. But then, how do you interpret his keeping Neville from choking? To me, it is a classic example of Snape's deeds speaking louder than his words, and his words are particularly slytherin so as to mask his intention to keep Neville from suffering.

Oh, and I've got a friend who has been reading the series and she told me that she wasn't convinced Snape was on the side of good until she read that scene!

Snape, to me, has demonstrated valuing honour by his continuous efforts to protect Harry despite his feelings for the boy and his parents. Everything he did in PS/SS set the tone for what to expect from Snape and nothing has really wavered---he does good things but speaks with a crafty and ascerbic tongue. And he picks on the students (with our without a greater purpose is up to interpretation).


Dumbledore - Mar 28, 2005 8:07 am (#1454 of 2980)
I completely agree you, Gina and Hollywand. I was trying to think of something new to express my own insights into Snape's character, but you guys summed it up excellently!


Ponine - Mar 28, 2005 8:18 am (#1455 of 2980)
Gina - I am sorry I was unclear. There is nothing funny about poor Neville being choked, but I just don't think he deserves a medal for preventing one child from choking another child right under his nose. The way I interpreted the scene was that Snape came in and assessed the situation, and found himself not a particular fan of anyone present in the room. He did what needed to be done, gave the Slytherins the right impression so that nothing suspicious could be reported back to any death eater parents, was civil to Umbridge, and nasty to the Gryffindors. All in all, business as usual. I do think that his comment about the Veritaserum, as well as Neville and the reccommendation, was simply Snape being sarcastic, albeit to an ungrateful crowd. Obviously, whether he is good, bad or ugly, he cannot allow children to be killed left and right on his watch, whether he would like to see it happen or not (And I do not think that he personally cares too much one way or the other). I can't imagine the ensuing conrsation between Snape and Dumbledore if Snape had allowed Neville to actually die.

And the more I think about it, the more I realize how careful Snape has to be about everything he does and everything he says at all times.... hmm... (I am, of course, taking it for granted that he is a double (triple?) agent, and ultimately on the good side.)


Puck - Mar 28, 2005 8:21 am (#1456 of 2980)
Snape was treated with cruelty growning up, and likely thinks he turned out fine. Stronger for it, even. Perhaps he treats students as he does becuase he doesn't see the harm in it. To do so would be admitting the he, himself had been harmed. He can, however, see physical harm for what it is, so strives to protect others from that.

Ponine, I agree that he may have learned more about Harry during Occumency lessons than he wanted to. He had seen Harry, up until that point, as he had seen James. Perhaps he did see some of himself in those flashes from Harry's childhood. Boy, that would be so annoying to Snape, to feel a connection to Harry!


Dumbledore - Mar 28, 2005 8:27 am (#1457 of 2980)
Puck, I don't think Snape thinks he turned out fine. We were discussing before whether he's truly happy in life, and my own personal opinion is that he is not. Whatever terrible things may have happened in his past has all contributed to the way we perceive him today. Because of this inner turmoil, I think he has put a sort of emotional barrier around himself, barring himself from being "weak" by showing emotions and exuding that image toward others, tht persona that it is only those fools who express feelings. I think he has been hurt before by showing emotions, and does not want to be hurt again. So I don't think you can necessarily say he's stronger due to his past struggles, but he certainly does a good job of covering his feelings up.

I agree with your statement though that Snape did feel more of a connection to Harry after seeing some of his memories. Before that, he had just been James' son, the one who had tormented him through school, but after seeing flashes of Harry's humiliating childhood with the Dursleys, Snape must've felt some sense of sympathy or compassion for Harry.


septentrion - Mar 28, 2005 8:59 am (#1458 of 2980)
A sense which was broken by Harry's sneaking in the pensieve, restating by doing so his image as James' son.


Hollywand - Mar 28, 2005 11:06 am (#1459 of 2980)
True enough about Harry invading privacy, but let's not forget Snape was a snoop as well. And James protected him.


Potions Mistress - Mar 28, 2005 11:10 am (#1460 of 2980)
Which Snape is probably more "comfortable" with anyhow: 1) it fits better with his (preconceived) notions about Harry and 2) assuming he did feel sympathy, compassion, etc. toward Harry, I don't think he was very happy feeling those "weak" emotions.

~pm


Weeny Owl - Mar 28, 2005 11:22 am (#1461 of 2980)
As for pitying Snape, here's a definition from my dictionary: sympathetic sorrow for one suffering, distressed, or unhappy

It is difficult to feel sorrow for the adult Snape because of the way he treats others, but it's quite easy to feel sorrow for the child Snape.

The comment about "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves" has been discussed before in the archived threads. It does seem to be more of a comment about him than just one directed at Harry.

As for Neville choking and Snape having to report to Dumbledore, the fact remains Snape did actually take the time to stop it. It shows, as Gina said, that from the first book Snape has worked behind the scenes protecting students. Even if that passage is taken to mean "business as usual," then the usual business for Snape means he isn't going to allow a student to die, which can be interpreted as him having a heart, but a heart without the frills most of us can afford to have.


mooncalf - Mar 28, 2005 4:19 pm (#1462 of 2980)
Edited by Mar 28, 2005 4:19 pm
'Pity' and 'sympathy' may have nearly the same definition in the dictionary, but I would say that the word 'pity' connotes a feeling of superiority. Snape would despise either.

I think that Snape's was taken aback when he saw Harry's memories ("To whom did the dog belong?") because it was really the first evidence that he had seen that Harry isn't a "pampered little prince," and by extension evidence that he isn't as arrogant as James. Maybe it was a hint to him that Harry is not his father all over again.

Of course if he did feel any momentary sympathy, the fact that Harry saw what he did in the pensieve would have blasted that sympathy right out of his head.

But there is a parallel between the two memories; Snape and then Harry are forced, by the memories they have witnessed to alter their ideas about each other. They were very comfortable hating each other; it was probably a bit uncomfortable for each of them to find out that they don't know everything there is to know about each other.


Choices - Mar 28, 2005 5:28 pm (#1463 of 2980)
Mooncalf - "But there is a parallel between the two memories; Snape and then Harry are forced, by the memories they have witnessed to alter their ideas about each other. They were very comfortable hating each other; it was probably a bit uncomfortable for each of them to find out that they don't know everything there is to know about each other."

Well said!


Gina R Snape - Mar 28, 2005 5:31 pm (#1464 of 2980)
Indeed. And both seemed keen to go back to the way things were, perhaps to an even more severe extent than before.

Oh, I can only imagine how ugly things might get between them in HbP and what it will take for them to trust they are on the same side.


Ponine - Mar 28, 2005 6:03 pm (#1465 of 2980)
Well, I must apologize - sometimes the connotational meaning of every word - even some of the common ones - are sometimes tricky in second and third languages, and it seems as though the word I was looking for was being sympathetic towards, rather than pitying, as I never intended to indicate any note of superiority to Snape or anyone else.

Edit: No, I have been thinking about my post, and it just does not sound right to me. I would not say I feel much sympathy towards Snape, so how can it be the right term? I feel sorry for Snape, as it seems he has had a cruddy life, and in many ways still do. I mean if someone's cat died, I would feel sorry for them - surely this phrase does not indicate the same notion of superiority that you say pitying does? Or does it?


Puck - Mar 28, 2005 6:57 pm (#1466 of 2980)
Dumbledore, I also don't believe Snape turned out fine, but I do think he tells himself this, that he is strong and others are weak. Maybe deep down he knows the truth, but he buries it in a place where he can't access it, much as Fudge had buried the notion that Voldemort was alive. Snape does not want to be seen as vulnerable or damaged, not even by himself.


Hollywand - Mar 28, 2005 7:29 pm (#1467 of 2980)
Ponine: I would agree with your interpretation of the use of "pity" not connoting superiority, and that it can be used interchangeably with "sympathy". Some interpret pity to mean hierarchical relationships, but that seems open to the person's individual speculation.

"Contempt" or "condescend" clearly mean to imply superiority.

Your remarks on Severus don't carry a condescending aire, just a critical tone, which is entirely fine in my book. Severus is in a clearly powerful position as an instructor, and misuses his position to bully Gryffindors. He's a git.


mooncalf - Mar 28, 2005 9:37 pm (#1468 of 2980)
I'm sorry, Ponine, I certainly don't mean to be critical. I remember learning it this way: to pity, sympathize and empathize all mean about the same thing, but to pity implies a certain condescension, while empathy implies a feeling so strong that one actually feels another's pain. I wouldn't say that to feel sorry for someone carries any of those connotations.

But obviously there is a variation in interpretation even among those of us who are native speakers of English.

Sorry to have caused any confusion.


Lina - Mar 28, 2005 11:35 pm (#1469 of 2980)
Mooncalf: But obviously there is a variation in interpretation even among those of us who are native speakers of English.

I do think that richness of any language is its treasure and those tiny little details that make differences between two similar words are a real magic! Let's face it: there is not even only one English (British, US, Australian...). Maybe we would be more equal if we used Esperanto, but then there would be much less of us on the forum. What I'm trying to say: Ponine, you can take my word for it: no one is trying to patronize you! Everybody is just trying to go as deep in Potterverse as possible and sharing the richness of this masterpiece. And when it comes to Snape, there is really sooooooooooooo much to share. If English is not your first language (which is not obvious), this is the good way to learn more.


Potions Mistress - Mar 29, 2005 9:13 am (#1470 of 2980)
Ponine, don't worry about it. I think one conotation of "pity" is the same conotation as "sympathy." That is, you feel sorry for someone. I think another conotation of "pity" does indicate hierarchy, so I guess it's not so much a matter of definition but how we apply these terms to Snape. For the record, I don't think Snape would like anyone feeling sorry for him, whether it be genuine or condescending. That would probably indicate to him either weakness on the part of the sympathizer (or pitier--I think I just made that word up!) or contempt which he could not stand...I also think that genuine sympathy would make Snape uncomfortable with himself and the feelings and memories he's been burying for years.

~pm


T Brightwater - Mar 29, 2005 10:36 am (#1471 of 2980)
Hope you don't mind me starting a new discussion, but I think I've figured out why Snape reacted to Harry mentioning Malfoy's name to Fudge.

If Harry had just said that Voldemort was back and he had witnessed a meeting of Death Eaters, it might have been possible that Fudge would have taken him (and Dumbledore, and Snape) seriously enough to try and check it out. However, once Harry mentioned Lucius Malfoy, Snape knew he wasn't going to be believed. He knows Malfoy and Fudge are buddies. Malfoy, as far as Fudge is concerned, is a fine, upstanding, pure-blooded, respectable, wealthy citizen who donates to charity; he couldn't possibly be a Death Eater. (That little misunderstanding was cleared up years ago.)

Imagine that you're in a position of power and someone tells you that an attack is planned on your company/school/country/whatever. Well, maybe the person doing the warning is a nutcase, but you can't take the chance, really. You warn everybody to be on their guard, evacuate people if necessary, build up security, etc.

Now imagine that the person who gives you the warning tells you that several respectable people whom you work with and/or know socially are involved with this planned attack. Better and smarter people than Fudge might have trouble believing that. (No, I'm not trying to excuse Fudge; he was relying too much on his own judgment and refusing to listen to anything that called that judgment into question.)

Anyway, I think that accounts adequately for Snape's reaction. What do the rest of you think?


Lina - Mar 29, 2005 12:45 pm (#1472 of 2980)
If Snape knew someone felt sorry for him, I think it would be worse for him then being sent to Azkaban (considering that dementors could do any harm to him )

T Brightwater, I think your idea is great, very logical and convincing. I just like better the idea of being surprised that LV said those names out loud. But yes, if Fudge was ready to believe that LV is back, he wouldn't believe it any more after Malfoy being mentioned.


Ponine - Mar 29, 2005 1:35 pm (#1473 of 2980)
Brightwater - I really like your reasoning about Fudge, and you could very well be right. What you got me wondering about was whether Snape's job in all this was made easier or more difficult by Harry seeing all the DEs and Fudge not believing anything... Was he pleased that Harry mentioned names, or are we supposed to think he twitched because he wondered whether Harry had seen him there as well?


hellocello3200 - Mar 29, 2005 6:36 pm (#1474 of 2980)
Sorry to jump back a couple of post. In response to the discussion about Snape viewing Harry differently after seeing those scenes, my interperatation was not the same. I expected Snape to be more sympathetic, and was surprised when I didn't really see any. I guess I should look it up and reread that section, but I'm abit pressed for time at the moment.

As a side note, I don't think Harry gained as much understanding as he should have (and we the readers seem to) but at least he was able to admit to himself that his father and Sirius really were jerks.


Puck - Mar 29, 2005 6:58 pm (#1475 of 2980)
perhaps Snape was just surprise that Malfoy showed up. Many ministry officials believed he had worked under the imperius curse, reswulting in the charges against him being dropped. It seems Voldemort doesn't always let his right hand know what the left is doing. Snape may have actually been surprised to discover Malfoy to be a true death eater.


Gina R Snape - Mar 29, 2005 7:48 pm (#1476 of 2980)
Puck, I would love to think that...but with Lucius in particular it is very hard to believe. Fudge could look in the mirror and miss his own nose if someone told him it wasn't there. But Snape is too sharp to be fooled by the likes of Lucius Malfoy IMO, no matter how smooth and cunning Lucius may be.

I just wish we knew the level and nature of interaction between Snape and Lucius Malfoy behind the scenes. I hope we learn more of that in HbP.


Lina - Mar 29, 2005 11:26 pm (#1477 of 2980)
Gina, I have nothing to add to your post!


Delightful Task! - Mar 30, 2005 12:03 am (#1478 of 2980)
Thanks everyone for this discussion about pity and / or sympathy. I understand what I first meant more clearly now.

Ponine, you didn't have to apologize, and I'm sorry if I made you feel it was the case! As I said, this was just my feeling, and my only excuse is that I'm not a native English speaker! I might have put too much of the French word "pitié" into "pity" in the first place! Now, having read Mooncalf's definitions of pity and sympathy, I admit I might feel sympathy for child Snape!

Just to finish about that subject, we easily remember the good things Snape did, but tend to forget he did horrible things too... I find it difficult to forgive the fact he revealed Lupin was a werewolf, and his attitude towards Sirius in PoA_ when there was a doubt about his guilt, and when he knew his arrest would lead to a dementor's kiss _ very unsettling, to say the least of it! That's why I don't pity / fell sympathy for Snape. He's not a victim (yet?)

Gina, I agree with you. Snape is certainly far too clever and mistrustful to believe Lucius Malfoy! Why should he treat Draco the way he does if he didn't believe he has to beware of Lucius?


septentrion - Mar 30, 2005 4:14 am (#1479 of 2980)
TB, your idea of Fudge less enclined to believe Harry once he spoke of Lucius is good. But for me, it just enhanced Fudge's unwillingness to believe the lunatic, parseltongue boy-who-lived.

About Lucius and Snape, Lucius is too "slippery" to be trusted, and my our dear potions master probably knew too much how little Malfoy could be trusted.


Gina R Snape - Mar 30, 2005 4:35 am (#1480 of 2980)
I've never thought Snape revealing Lupin as a werewolf was unforgiveable. The way I see it, Lupin was sacked in part because his werewolf status put the kids in jeopardy when he failed to take his potion. Rather than DD announcing why Lupin was asked to leave, he made a management decision and allowed Snape to 'relieve himself' of this information by 'letting it slip' to the Slytherins.

This way, Snape was given a little something after losing the Order of Merlin (and Sirius Black slipping away), and DD did not have to make any official announcements. Rumours were going to fly anyway, at least this way the rumour would be the truth.


librarian314 - Mar 30, 2005 6:55 am (#1481 of 2980)
Hi Gina, et al.

Just to clarify a point...Remus didn't get sacked, he resigned before Dumbledore received a deluge of mail from concerned parents. From the discussion in the scene where our dear werewolf takes his leave, I'm convinced that the Headmaster would've fought to retain Lupin had that been Lupin's choice. Remus decided that it was better for all involved that he leave Hogwarts, so that he wouldn't ever put another child at danger.

One of the things that I wonder about, is whether or not the Potions Master had a schedule of when he delivered the Wolfsbane draught to Remus and if so was he late in delivering the night of the Shrieking Shack incident in PoA?

The one time I remember Prof. Snape delivering the potion was in the middle of the day. Harry had been hanging out with Lupin because he couldn't go into Hogsmeade. Was this a regular thing or did Snape just drop it off whenever? When did he usually deliver the dose that was meant for the day of the full moon?

Sorry if the first paragraph was a bit vociferous :-) but were I a single woman, I would speak of our dear werewolf as Gina speaks of her dear Severus.

*michelle the librarian**


Potions Mistress - Mar 30, 2005 7:11 am (#1482 of 2980)
Delightful Task, I think as a young child, Snape was a victim of some kind of abuse, and abuse was carried over to Hogwarts...to a point. I think as he sunk further into the Dark Arts and became a DE, he was no longer a victim, but in fact a victimizer. I also believe that he still is one toward many of students, though in different way of "Crucio-ing" them.

I do believe that Snape is really on the side of Good, even if he's not that good/moral of a person. We see where Snape does indeed lose control and I think in some way, seeks some sort of vengance on those who made him lose control. "Accidently" letting slip that Remus is a werewolf was one of those incidents, IMO. However, I wonder what Snape does to himself for losing control...I doubt he's very self-forgiving.

~pm


Ponine - Mar 30, 2005 8:55 am (#1483 of 2980)
Michelle, I am glad to hear you appreciate Remus so much, too - he is really such a warm and kind man, and I think he will blossom (if you can say that in this case...) in the last two books. I actually think that he might be able to if not become friends with, then at least reach a truce with Snape, as Remus is so non-threatening and simultaneously - solid, somehow. I think it is a lot easier to hate Sirius and James than Remus. But I could be dreaming...

And pm, I could not agree more with post 1482, about Severus' past and present. And like you, I have wondered to what extent he realizes when he has slipped up and lost his composure, or been 'weak', and what that does to him afterwards. I also wonder how his current position, which as we know, entails great personal risk, affects him, and how he would be when no longer under such pressure. I do not expect him to ever become warm and fuzzy, but surely the situation must take its toll on him?!


Puck - Mar 30, 2005 11:04 am (#1484 of 2980)
Has there been a discussion about why he never got the DADA job? I mean, because DD wanting to keep him around to much to give him a cursed position.


Potions Mistress - Mar 30, 2005 1:22 pm (#1485 of 2980)
Puck, I don't know if it's been looked at that way before. Interesting...anyway, you can also probably find different opinions on the archived threads as well. As far as know, JKR said DD wouldn't give Snape the position because it would bring out the worst in him (which is kind of scary, considering we've seen Snape in some pretty bad moments!).

~pm


Gina R Snape - Mar 30, 2005 1:40 pm (#1486 of 2980)
There's a theory going round that Snape has cursed the DADA position so that it needs re-filling every year.

I am not so sure Remus' departure from Hogwarts is so clear cut. I like Lupin. But I do think the feeling was mutual that he should leave. But I suppose further elaboration belongs on the Lupin thread...


librarian314 - Mar 30, 2005 5:24 pm (#1487 of 2980)
Hey all!

I have always seen Prof. Snape's outing of Remus' condition as being primarily revenge. He had captured Sirius Black, an escaped convict, and found out that another professor was aiding and abetting said convict, if only for a bit. These two people were half of the group responsible for some of the worst, pre-Death Eater, episodes in his life. When Black escaped, Snape may well have felt as if the same thing was happening all over again. He was embarrassed, again, at the hands of two of his school nemeses; this time, however, he could get even and not get punished for it.

I don't like what the Potions' Master did, I think it was petty and small minded, but I understand why he did it. It was a chance to right some of the wrongs done to him in school. I think that it was shameful the way Dumbledore let MWPP torture Severus in school and as yet, we've yet to hear how or if Sirius was punished for the prank that could've ended in both Snape's and Lupin's deaths.

In a way, it could well have been a bit of a dig at Dumbledore, also. In school, whatever punishment was meted out was not enough to satisfy Severus; neither Remus or Sirius were expelled or sent to Azkaban (or put down, in Remus' case). This time, he could punish one of the perpetrators in a way in which no one would fault him. The parents would thank him for getting rid of the beast.

I feel badly for Remus, because he's been through enough just because of his condition, but in a way, he did reap what he had sown. If he had been nicer to Severus as a student or been able to stand up to James and Sirius and made them leave him alone, Lupin may still be teaching at Hogwarts. As it is, because he didn't, Snape had no qualms in revealing his condition.

It'll be interesting to see how Snape's choice to reveal Remus as a werewolf continues to play out. We know that the next two DADA professors were less than stellar. One was Death Eater in disguise and caused the death of one of the school's best students. The other was a vile, insipid creature that inflicted pain when she could and taught the students nothing, except to do what they could to flout authority. She even went so far as to mess with Severus personally.

How many other repercussions has this action had?

Y'all take care!

*michelle the librarian**


Choices - Mar 30, 2005 6:28 pm (#1488 of 2980)
Librarian - "I think that it was shameful the way Dumbledore let MWPP torture Severus"

I'm not at all sure that it has been confirmed that Dumbledore knew that James and Sirius (mainly) were tormenting Severus. I don't believe he knew, just as he did not seem to know they were animagi when they were in school. And now, he doesn't seem to know that Harry (and Ron and Hermione) and Draco have a feud going....or he chooses not to notice because it is teaching them valuable lessons about dealing with all sorts of people.


Solitaire - Mar 30, 2005 8:28 pm (#1489 of 2980)
I really do not think Remus is responsible for what Sirius did to Snape. This sounds like something Sirius was probably talking about and promising to do. In fact, I suspect James had probably heard it so often, he figured it was so much hot air, considering the hatred between the two. I have often had one friend or another fantasize aloud about the terrible things he or she is "going to do" to the villain of the moment. I never take these friends seriously, and I bet James didn't either ... at first. When he did realize that Sirius was serious, he stepped in and stopped Snape from walking into the trap. Unfortunately, it was not before some damage was done.

I realize there was no canon for this. It just makes sense to me--based on my own personal experiences--that it might have happened this way.

Concerning the repercussions, I'd say one of the worst is that Snape has been almost as bad as Umbridge in preventing Remus from making a living. If she drafted and passed legislation which prevented werewolves from working, then Snape ensured that Remus suffered from it by making sure that everyone knew he was a werewolf. It is at least partially Snape's fault that Remus is in such tight financial straits.

Solitaire


librarian314 - Mar 31, 2005 11:27 am (#1490 of 2980)
Hey all!

I think that Dumbledore knew some of what was going on between MWPP and Severus. The incident by the lake after OWLs, that Harry sees in the Pensieve in "Snape's Worst Memory" has an audience, a decent sized audience. If Dumbledore didn't hear about it, then several people, students and faculty, were shirking their duties.

I agree with you Solitaire, that Remus was in no way to blame for Sirius sending Severus to visit a full-grown werewolf. In that situation, Remus was as much a victim as was Severus. He could have lost as much, if not more than Severus. (Don't know what the Ministry does to werewolves that infect others; they could well kill them so they don't do it again.)

If Severus had seen Remus tell off James and Sirius when they started to hex and jinx him in school, Severus may have kept his mouth shut about his condition at the end of PoA. Remus' choice to not stand up to his friends concerning their horrid behaviour, contributed to Severus' general feelings concerning our dear werewolf. Looked at from Severus' point of view, this was one of the people that had tormented him during school and could have stopped it. Lupin was a prefect after all, but did nothing that Severus could see.

We know that our dear werewolf had nothing to do with the "prank" that Sirius played on Severus, but Severus does not. He believes that Lupin was actively involved. Even if Remus disavowed any knowledge of it, I don't blame Severus for not believing him. Remus was part of a group that took pleasure in harassing him.

It's one of those choices that have long-reaching consequences that are completely unpredictable. Most people don't carry school boy grudges into middle age; they grow-up enough to realize that kids are generally daft when it comes in interpersonal behavior and don't understand enough to know how damaging their actions can be. Remus has learned from his mistakes and acts according; I'm not certain Snape has.

*michelle the librarian**


Detail Seeker - Mar 31, 2005 11:48 am (#1491 of 2980)
Michelle, please do not forget, that we know as good as nothing about the origin of the feud between Snape and the Marauders, just a few remarks by Lupin and Sirius and a propably carefully selected memory from Snape´s side. I doubt, that the picture of "poor Snape tortured by the Marauders" hold much water, nor will the opposite side describe the situation correctly. Enmity on first sight, like the Draco-Harry-relationship - you could with some justification call Harry the original aggressor there, because he did not take Draco´s hand and friendship offer - getting hotter and hotter - like Trio against MCG (Malfoy-Crabbe-Goyle) over the years - will create a lot of such situations as the one glimpse, snape put into the Pensieve.

But, as Snape does not seem to be lacking self-Righteousness, you may have well characterized, how Snape feels about the whole situation. The intense hate, he projects on Harry, tells as much.


Lina - Mar 31, 2005 2:08 pm (#1492 of 2980)
I reread a part of PoA. Snape had a lecture about werewolves short after Halloween and after Black's first break in to the Hogwarts. (I'm not sure I wrote it correctly, but I hope you understand what I ment) We should take into consideration that he was convinced that Lupin helped Black to come in. First, he talked to DD about it and only after DD ignoring him, he decided to tell it to the students. And he didn't succeed, because nobody complained until the end of the year when Lupin actually transformed into a wolf and wandered around Hogwarts for a while. So I don't think he was mean. He could have hinted Malfoy, after noticing that he didn't come to the same conclusion as Hermione did, because it seems to me that Lucius is the only parent who questions the situation at Hogwarts, but he didn't do it.


librarian314 - Mar 31, 2005 3:38 pm (#1493 of 2980)
Hey all!

The one glimpse we get though, is pretty telling. First, Snape is bugged just because Sirius is bored. In my book, that's never a good reason to bother someone. Secondly, what Sirius and James did to him wasn't a harmless prank, it was humiliating. Between the two of them, they cast an Expelliarmus, Impedimenta, Scourgify, some spell that left Severus hanging upside down in the air, another unnamed spelled that dropped him out of the air, Petrificus Totalus, and the hanging upside down spell again. Throughout all of this, Severus only got off some spell that cut James' cheek. To top things off, right before Harry was yanked out of the Pensieve, James asked, "Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants?" All of this was done in front of a bunch of people variously described as "several people," "many," "many people," and "small crowd".

The feeling that I got from this scene is that it didn't matter who had started it any more. James and Sirius were out to get Severus at every point possible and were willing to gang up on him. What they did to him was inexcusable and they deserved to be punished for it.

Severus isn't innocent; in the floo conversation with Remus and Sirius, Lupin tells Harry that Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James and that James couldn't really take it lying down. (As Lupin is the most reasonable and adult of the bunch, I tend to believe what he says.) If it had just been Snape and James then it probably would have only been a fight between a pair of school yard bullies and they would have both gotten what they deserved, that time around. But it was two on one, in front of a crowd, with a prefect sitting by and doing nothing. In this particular instance, if I had found out about it and had been in a position to do something about it, James and Sirius would have been doing some particularly nasty detention, in front of everyone and Remus would have gotten a stern talking to.

Between this and the whole werewolf incident, I've just always gotten the feeling that Snape always got the short end of the stick. He didn't appear to have a support network, like MWPP did.

Anyway, y'all take care!

*michelle the librarian**


Gina R Snape - Mar 31, 2005 4:17 pm (#1494 of 2980)
I don't think JKR would allow us to see a glimpse of the past if it wasn't significant. That scene was HUGE, and meant to change our view of things at least a little bit.

As for Remus and Sirius, I think Remus was just as much a victim as Snape. It's yet another reason why I cannot stand Sirius Black. With friends like that, who needs enemies?


Ponine - Mar 31, 2005 5:15 pm (#1495 of 2980)
You know, the whole episode bugs me more and more, the more I read you guys' input. I really enjoy your posts, Michelle, they tend to crystallize how I feel, but can't seem to grasp clearly enough to get it, so thanks Smile

Anyway. I don't care if James and Sirius were young, they were old enough to know better, and to me, they are exactly as deplorable as the DEs during the quidditch cup, dangling the muggles. It is cruel, unecessary and to me indicative of traits that I do not appreciate, in a teen or an adult. I found it liberating to see that you, Gina, can't stand Black, and said it out loud, because seemingly everone adores him, and I was thinking today as I was finishing OoP again, that he is reckless at the very best, and self-centered to the point of being dangerous to himself and others. He really makes me furious!

And Lupin - I really like the guy, but as Rowling said, he wants to be liked too much. I understand that he more than likely has friends, who knows ALL his sides, for the first time, and that he cherishes these friendships. But it never hit me until now that he was actually a prefect at the time it happened! No wonder Snape can't stand the guy and does not trust him! He has seen time and time again how Remus does not have it in him to stand up to Sirius in particular, and why should this time be any different? I feel very sorry for Remus, because I have no doubts that he was very aware of how cruel to Sirius they were, and what he should have done about it, but that is not enough for me. I am very upset with Remus right now. **panting** Sorry for ranting, but this is awful!

Ponine, who doesn't like Sirius either.


Ff3girl - Mar 31, 2005 6:36 pm (#1496 of 2980)
Gina R Snape: I think Remus was just as much a victim as Snape. It's yet another reason why I cannot stand Sirius Black. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Meow, Gina! ^_~

Isn't that just a liiiittle harsh? Although what you said is absolutely true, everybody has their faults. Snape is my favorite character too, but you have to admit that he and Sirius are both almost equally to blame for the state of thigns as far as we know.


Puck - Mar 31, 2005 7:11 pm (#1497 of 2980)
I wonder if Snape and Sirius knew each other before they started Hogwarts. They both came from Dark wizarding families. They may have played together as children, but then parted ways. That kind of severed friendship could make things all the more painful.

Snape had said for years that Harry was arrogant like his dad. We never believed, since Harry was not. That scene showed us that James, indeed, was a big-headed bully, and Snape was right to judge him (but not Harry) as such.


Gina R Snape - Mar 31, 2005 8:13 pm (#1498 of 2980)
Ponine, I think you've hit the nail on the head where Snape is concerned. He did not trust Lupin, and his concerns were brushed off by DD. Yes, Lupin seems a nice guy. But like many characters in HP, Lupin is tied to his past. And his past bond with Sirius Black lead him to hide his animagus status from DD for whatever reason.

Snape may have been incorrect in thinking (along with the rest of the wizarding world) that Black was out to kill Harry, but he was spot on in not trusting Lupin where Sirius Black was concerned. It was Lupin's act of ommission that helped Sirius gain entry into the castle.

Ff3girl, yes I was absolutely harsh. And deliberately so. Snape may have his faults, but he gets bashed for them all the time and never seems to get the credit he deserves. Sirius Black, on the other hand, has been nauseatingly fawned upon (time in Azkaban notwithstanding) by fans, girls at Hogwarts, Harry, Hagrid and JKR herself. But from the first I sensed a degree of trouble and distrust in him that came to full fruition with OOtP. He may have been on the 'side of good,' but he inherited all the Black family traits in personality and approach nonetheless. And I've yet to see him commit an act worthy of true praise. Even his attendance at the battle in the MoM was tainted by his own arrogance which in part lead to his death. Since his youth he's picked on Snape for no apparent reason, put himself and his friends in jeopardy, showed himself capable of murder and disregarded the needs of others.

Snape, on the other hand, has put others' needs before himself. Even in direct contradition to his own preferences. He just doesn't do it with a smile. But people continue to bash him and mistrust him time after time, book after book.


Elanor - Mar 31, 2005 9:24 pm (#1499 of 2980)
I do agree that Sirius is at least as much the one to blame as Snape regarding what happened when they were students, and that Sirius after he escaped Azkaban was reckless etc... But still, he gave Harry what he needed the most: love and the feeling that someone really cared for him and that counts his Sirius' favour. Snape works for the good but Harry is so hungry for love and what may look more or less like a family that he still can't see Snape just as an ally yet, a pity!

But something puzzles me about the "Snape's worst memory" scene. It is said that there were a lot of people watching, it is likely there were Slytherins amongst them, what were they doing when Snape was bullied? Why no one in his own house tried to help him? There is the "save your own neck" Slytherin policy, true, but it can't explain eveything. Does this mean he was isolated even in his own house, the house that was supposed to be "his family" at Hogwarts?


Ff3girl - Mar 31, 2005 10:43 pm (#1500 of 2980)
I do wonder why nobody was there to back up Snape that day. Didn't Sirius say before that Snape had a group of Slytherins he usually hung out with? I can imagine he was somewhat of an outcast, but it's still hard for me to believe that only Lily would stand up for him.

Gina: We definitely agree that Snape and Sirius were both at fault for the situation being the way it was. You're right, there are a lot more people who criticize Snape than Sirius. And Sirius does have more fangirls. I think one of the things that is appealing about Snape's character is that fact that there don't seem to be nearly as many people who are rooting for him, even though he does have all those wonderful characteristics you listed.

Still...

I love Sirius too. It probably helps that the story is told from Harry's perspective. I know that we saw a lot of his faults very prominently displayed in OOTP, and you're right again--I can't think of any wonderful selfless deeds he's done in the books. But there are so many tiny little parts that make me just adore him. For example, I cry every time I read the part in the book (or watch it in the movie) in which Sirius invites Harry to live with him. Am I the only one who loves them both?? I can understand how it would be difficult, considering that each wishes the either nothing but ill will...

Sorry I went rambling about Sirius on the Snape thread, but gosh darnit I love my characters. T_T

Edit: You can't forget, Snape has his fair share of fangirls too! ^_~
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Lina - Apr 1, 2005 3:28 am (#1501 of 2980)
Puck, yes, sometimes I have the feeling too that Sirius and Snape knew each other before they came to Hogwarts, or James and Snape, and something happened before they came to Hogwarts and they continued to argue about that. The rest of the MWPP just joined the one who had the grudge with Snape because they were company.

The feeling that I got from this scene is that it didn't matter who had started it any more. -- *michelle the librarian**

Yes, Michelle, that's what I keep telling my children: it doesn't matter who started first, but the better one will stop it first. And it seams to be Lupin. (Well, Wormtail too, but just because he lost his opportunity)

I'm just wondering... Snape obviously knew about their nicknames, and he went after them to the Shrieking Shack when Lupin almost became a werewolf. Is it possible that he didn't notice that those wizards are animagi?


Hollywand - Apr 1, 2005 6:49 am (#1502 of 2980)
A wonderful discussion about the "Snape's Worst Memory" incident. I am not in the least defending James, Sirius or Lupin's behaviour, but I think Severus made two poor choices in the heat of the moment.

The first is to make a mean spirited charged racial remark to Lily at a monment when she has stayed James' cruel behaviour. Severus could have graciously accepted Lily's compassionate and courageous act, but chose to wound her spirit by referring to her as a Mudblood. Not exactly a brilliant choice of words when a powerful wizard who loves said Muggle-born has your said self suspended mid-air.

The second mistake on Severus' behalf is to take the opportunity physically wound James when his attention is distracted by Lily. Not exactly a brilliant choice of actions when a powerful wizard who doesn't exactly like you has your said self suspended mid-air.

Severus also exacerbated and escalated the confrontation in the situation. Hmmm, I wonder if Jo will give us the outcome of the incident.


Ponine - Apr 1, 2005 7:56 am (#1503 of 2980)
Hollywand - I agree with you - It was really not a wise move, or for that matter, a very endearing one, on his part to lash out at Lily like that. However, as the he is hanging suspended in mid-air, undies flashed and completely defenseless in front of an audience, it must be hard to separate friend from foe. To be exposed like that is painful enough, but I think Lily's attempt to help just made his predicament so much worse; in his mind it truly made him look and feel helpless and weak - and perhaps Pitied.. ( Wink ). To be preyed upon, defeated, exposed, ridiculed and then pitied?!? From a Gryffindor girl (of muggle decent?!?), nonetheless. I do not think that I have ever seen or heard anything from Severus indicating a deep resentment for muggleborns more than anyone else (nice not to be so discriminatory..), and so mudblood just may have been the most offensive term he could think of right then and there. I will not even think about how painful it would have been if Lily was actually someone he had feelings for..


Potions Mistress - Apr 1, 2005 8:26 am (#1504 of 2980)
The issue of whether Snape's Worst Memory is really his worst memory has been discussed both here and at the CoS Forums (and other forums, I'm sure). I've heard two interesting arguments and am curious as to what you all think:

1) SWM is not Snape's worst memory, but the worst one for Harry to watch, as it should James and Sirius in an incredibly harsh light.

2) It is SWM because our Potions Master is a man who likes/has to be in control of everything. Being held upside down so everyone can see your underwear is most definitely a situation where Snape lost control over everything--possibly including himself, when he called Lily a "mudblood."

3) It is SWM because this event (and other's like it?) was a catalyst, and what eventually lead him to become a DE.

These are some of the main arguments I hear/read, and I'm sure there are many more. Thoughts, anyone?


librarian314 - Apr 1, 2005 10:43 am (#1505 of 2980)
Hey all!

The whole SWM (to use an earlier abbreviation) scene strikes at the heart of the whole theme of choices. Everyone in that scene made choices that are continuing to affect them and their offspring, twenty years later. Does Snape protect Harry, not out of a life debt to James, but to honor Lily's attempted rescue in that incident? Does whomever was in the house at Godric's Hollow offer to save Lily because she tried to protect Severus?

Gina, et al. - I can't say that I dislike Sirius, though I do agree, at least in Remus' case, with your friends' like this statement. I believe that Remus is one of the examples of unconditional love in the series (Dumbledore is another). Remus understands what Sirius is and accepts him anyway. He also tries to do this with Severus as well.

Sirius is one of those people, much like Snape, that you have to look beyond what's at the surface. They are both people that you have to cut a lot of slack and make allowances for. Each has their own distinctive way of doing things and each expects everyone else around them to do things their way. Dumbledore, expecting them to work closely together, made a big mistake.

Severus is one of the characters I wish we got to see more of from a perspective other than Harry's. After five years of being loathed, Harry's view of Snape is tarnished. Whereas I don't love him as Gina does ;-), I don't hate him either. I don't like a lot of what he's done and think he's brought a lot of his problems on himself, but I understand, at least a little bit, from whence he's coming.

Hopefully HBP will shed some more light on our dear Potions Master.

*michelle the librarian**

PS: I can't tell you how many times as a I child fighting with my sister I heard the phrase from my dad, "I don't care who started it; I'm finishing it!" :-)


Gina R Snape - Apr 1, 2005 12:17 pm (#1506 of 2980)
Ff3girl, yes of course Snape has his fangirls. In fact, I feel fairly certain that the Snape fandom is the largest of the HP sub-fandoms. But, I was thinking more about Sirius' fangirls IN the Potterverse, along with the general HP fandom commentary about the two.


Delightful Task! - Apr 1, 2005 12:42 pm (#1507 of 2980)
Ponine, I tend to think that someone who calls a muggle born "mudblood" then becomes a DE is rather prejudiced against muggle borns in general! Young Snape was a Slytherin, from an ancient family, therefore I think he considered muggle borns as inferiors. Then he changed his mind for one reason we still ignore! And I like him all the more for it!

Anyway, I completely agree with your post 1503, the "pitied" included!

*winks back!**

About Sirius and Snape, one reason why they hate each other could be that Snape considers Sirius was not true to his family and "cultural background". Sirius should have been a Slytherin I imagine. And maybe they knew each other when they were kids, as you also said, Ponine.


Choices - Apr 1, 2005 12:47 pm (#1508 of 2980)
Delightful Task - "Young Snape was a Slytherin, from an ancient family"

I don't think we know enough about Snape to say he was from an ancient family. We have only seen a brief glimpse of his "family" - if indeed it was his father and mother - and we don't know if they were pure-blood or not. Although I guess technically everyone's family is ancient - we all go back for many generations.


Gina R Snape - Apr 1, 2005 1:30 pm (#1509 of 2980)
It's true, we just don't know anything about the Snapes! And the name was frustratingly not visible on what we saw of the Black family tree. I wonder if we'll ever find out about them. If it doesn't fit directly into Harry's story, we may never find out.


Catherine - Apr 1, 2005 3:15 pm (#1510 of 2980)
It's true, we just don't know anything about the Snapes! And the name was frustratingly not visible on what we saw of the Black family tree.--Gina

I've clenched my teeth and moaned about this, Gina!

My gut feeling (not canon, I know! ) tells me that Snape and Sirius have more history than just being enemies in the same year of school. I've wondered if Sirius reminding Snape that 12 GP is his house has importance beyond mere snarkiness, or attempts to annoy Snape.

We've speculated elsewhere about who could be in line to inherit 12 GP, but if Snape is related to Sirius, that has SUCH interesting implications. It would explain the name-calling ("Snivellus" implying that Sirius has seen Snape acting like a "crybaby" younger boy, perhaps) and lends a whole new dimension to Snape's determination to capture Sirius and summon the Dementors to Kiss him.

I don't wish to sound snivelly myself, but I sure wish Ms. Rowling would throw us a tasty morsel sometime soon! Is it July YET?


Puck - Apr 1, 2005 5:39 pm (#1511 of 2980)
Lina, what makes you think Snape knew about the nicknames? In PoA when he reads the insults given by the map, he seems angry, but doesn't show recognition of the names of those insulting him. I think he would have been much more confrontational with Lupin had he known that he was "Mr. Moony".


Ff3girl - Apr 1, 2005 6:04 pm (#1512 of 2980)
Actually, I think he does show in a very subtle way that he recognized the names when he asked Lupin accusingly if it was possible Harry got the map from the original creators. Something along those lines... can't look at my book right now.


Dumbledore - Apr 1, 2005 6:13 pm (#1513 of 2980)
We know, at least, that after Voldemort's return Snape must've somehow found out about the nicknames (from Dumbledore, perhaps) if he didn't know them already because he recognizes that Harry is talking about Sirius when he gives Snape that cryptic message along the lines of "he's got Padfoota at the place where it's hidden", because he checked on Sirius on Grimmauld Place.


Gina R Snape - Apr 1, 2005 7:10 pm (#1514 of 2980)
The exact words were "directly from the manufacturer" and it's one of those scenes that's funnier on the reread when you KNOW who the manufacturers were. Snape may not have known their animagus forms, but he knew their nicknames alright.

Harry referring to Sirius as Padfoot in OoTP is another good reference. Thanks, Dumbledore for mentioning that one!


Lina - Apr 2, 2005 9:03 am (#1515 of 2980)
Puck, in the SWM, we see MWPP calling each other by their nicknames. It is Snape's memory. I don't know for sure if they said out loud all the nicknames in that memory, but they did at least one of them. This gets me to the conclusion that they did not care to mention them constantly and that he must have known that at least one of the manufacturers was Lupin's good friend if he didn't know who all four of them were, which sounds the most probable to me. And knowing this, I admit, rereading the PoA scene becomes much more interesting. It makes you see it from totally another point of view. Because, not only that Snape knew that Lupin knows who the manufacturers are, but Lupin knew that Snape knew it too. What they did, was just a little play before Harry. (I apologize again if I wrote something wrong, but I hope you get the point )

The fact that he followed them to the Shrieking Shack makes me wonder if he saw somebody already transforming (Wormtail had to push the switch on the Whomping Willow). Weren't it DD and madam Pomfrey those who had to bring Lupin to the Shrieking Shack? When did they stop doing it? Did they know about the three friends that used to join him? Who was Snape following? And so on...


Puck - Apr 2, 2005 7:07 pm (#1516 of 2980)
Thanks for clearing that up for me! I just re-read PoA, but am going to look that scene over again.

I don't think Snape suspect animagi, or he would have told DD or confronted Remis himself. Lupin wouldn't have lied if asked directly. Also, at the end of GoF "Snuffles" is asked by DD to show his true self to Snape. It says in PoA that Snape had noticed Remis being brought out by the nurse, and had witnessed him missing from classes. Probably kicked himself later for not putting the pieces together before going down into the tunnel. I suspect that Wormtail transformed in the saftey of the dorm or while under the cloak. The other two would have used the cloak to get into the tunnel, then transformed there. At least, that makes the most sense.

Why, though, oh why would Snape listen to Sirius about how to get into the tunnel? Didn't he know better than to trust him? I mean, our trio wouldn't trust Draco, would they?


Solitaire - Apr 2, 2005 7:24 pm (#1517 of 2980)
Did Sirius tell him directly what to do, or did Snape eavesdrop (with Sirius knowing full well he was eavesdropping) on a conversation and overhear Sirius (who meant him to overhear) mentioning the information?

Solitaire


Snuffles - Apr 3, 2005 1:22 am (#1518 of 2980)
Good thought Solitaire.

After re-reading POA I get the impression that Sirius told him directly. He tells him to push the knot on the tree trunk if he wants to know where Remus goes. Im not defending Sirius on this because it was a stupid thing to tell Severus, but again we haven't seen the run up to this event. We are told in OOTP that Severus followed them everywhere trying to get them expelled, we are also told he was unpopular and an oddball.(I know this is no reason to try and kill him) but I would say Sirius and Severus are as bad as each other at this time. We are told that Severus knew more about the dark arts in his first year than most year 7. We have yet to see, and probably wont now that Sirius is no longer here, any of his memories of what Snape did to MWPP. The memories are one sided and nobody can probably judge anything without seeing both memories leading up to this event. Snape could have cursed Sirius and James on numerous occasions leading up to Werewolf incident and Cursed them once too many times, which made Sirius act rashly. Sirius does admit to Harry in OOTP that him and James acted like arrogant burkes and that Remus did make them feel ashamed of themselves at times, I would like to see Severus admit any such things.

If Sirius had lived and been allowed his well deserved freedom, im sure we would have seen a more mature and less rash Sirius.


Solitaire - Apr 3, 2005 1:29 am (#1519 of 2980)
I certainly agree, Snuffles. I also continue to believe there was some prior acquaintance or family relationship between Sirius and Snape before Hogwarts.

If the Snapes and the Blacks were both involved in Dark Arts, then it is possible they are somehow related ... or at least spent time together when the two boys were younger. Perhaps it was a forced relationship--the way parents often "force" their children to spend time with the children of their friends, even when the kids clearly hate one another. Just a thought ...

Solitaire


Lina - Apr 3, 2005 3:50 am (#1520 of 2980)
I haven't read the OotP in Croatian yet, so I don't know how the name Snivellus is translated in my language. When I was reading it in English, I didn't bother to look for the translation and assumed that it means something sluggish. Now, that Catherine mentioned how "Snivellus" implying that Sirius has seen Snape acting like a "crybaby", I find it really interesting. That is not at all the Snape we know from the classes. Have we ever seen him crying or mourning at all? This must be something he fought about himself really hard. And succeeded in the way that he feels no sorrow and no happiness.


Gina R Snape - Apr 3, 2005 9:02 am (#1521 of 2980)
We saw Snape crying in the scene where he is in the corner and his father is yelling at his mother. We also so children laughing at him when he was little and found it difficult to mount his broomstick. It's not inconceivable that he started crying during that incident, but again, we can only guess there.

I too can completely see Severus being forced to play with Sirius as a child. It makes sense, but I doubt we'll find out. As for the memories being one-sided. There is a debate on the pensieve thread about the nature of pensieves. But even still, we have Remus Lupin left alive to provide us with another PoV of events.

Aside from all that, Snivellus might simply be nothing more than a clever play on Severus' name. To be frankly honest I was upset that none of us in the fandom thought it up sooner! After all, kids make up nicknames and mean names for their peers in school all the time.


Puck - Apr 3, 2005 9:31 am (#1522 of 2980)
I think Snape does feel sorrow, he just doesn't allow himself to show it. Happiness is an emotion that I agree he hasn't been able to truly feel. Smug satisfaction, yes, but not happiness.


Gina R Snape - Apr 3, 2005 10:08 am (#1523 of 2980)
I think he felt pretty happy to see McGonagall walk in the door at the end of OotP, but he didn't show it other than moving toward her.


rambkowalczyk - Apr 4, 2005 5:26 pm (#1524 of 2980)
just to add my two knuts. Snivelus as I imagine it implies someone with a runny nose, maybe also a whiny (or whinging) child as well. Considering that he seems to sneeze alot maybe he has the wizarding equivalent of allergies.


Solitaire - Apr 4, 2005 8:41 pm (#1525 of 2980)
"Sniveling" is often a word used in conjunction with "crybaby" and "coward." Perhaps Sirius is alluding to something he knows about Snape's childhood past ... something we have not yet been told.

Solitaire


Gina R Snape - Apr 5, 2005 5:49 am (#1526 of 2980)
Well, if he was a snivelling child he certainly has come a long way since then!


Choices - Apr 5, 2005 7:51 am (#1527 of 2980)
Ram - "Considering that he seems to sneeze alot"

Can you point me to some passages where Snape sneezes? I seem to have missed them.


Gina R Snape - Apr 5, 2005 8:24 am (#1528 of 2980)
Yeah, me too come to think of it!


Emily - Apr 5, 2005 2:59 pm (#1529 of 2980)
I remember one where Ron and Harry are sneaking out of the castle in the second book (while the halls are being patrolled by teachers). Ron stbs his toe and cusses (I think) at the same time that Snape sneezes. Unfortunately, I can't remember the chapter and I can't remember any other references.


Choices - Apr 5, 2005 3:52 pm (#1530 of 2980)
Well done Emily - I do remember that sneeze, but one sneeze does not an allergy make. I think that is in POA.


Gina R Snape - Apr 5, 2005 4:51 pm (#1531 of 2980)
Y'know, I can't for the life of me recall anyone else in the book sneezing. Does anyone find it curious that JKR would throw in Snape randomly sneezing?


Dumbledore - Apr 5, 2005 4:53 pm (#1532 of 2980)
I think it's just supposed to show a well-timed distraction that covers up for Ron cursing when he stubs his toe as they try to sneak out of the castle. I really don't think there's any hidden meaning about Snape sneezing behind this one. Sorry Gina


Solitaire - Apr 5, 2005 9:07 pm (#1533 of 2980)
Besides, I think the word connected to sneezing might be "sniffling," not "sniveling."


rambkowalczyk - Apr 6, 2005 8:29 am (#1534 of 2980)
Edited Apr 6, 2005 9:30 am
I thought for sure there was another reference to Snape sneezing other than the one Emily pointed out, but I can't think of it nor find it.

I suppose it was an exaggeration to imply he sneezes alot when he doesn't. It's just that when I think of how he got the name Snivellus that sneeze from book 2 took on special significance. When I think of the word Snivellus I thought more of sniffling instead of sniveling. just my 2 knuts.


Catherine - Apr 7, 2005 1:56 pm (#1535 of 2980)
Edited Apr 7, 2005 2:56 pm
Besides, I think the word connected to sneezing might be "sniffling," not "sniveling."

Oooh, like the name "Snuffles?"

I've just realized a connection between the name "Snuffles" and "Snivellus."

Perhaps I am trying too hard to make a connection (family, nickname, whatever) between Sirius and Snape.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 7, 2005 11:34 pm (#1536 of 2980)
Edited Apr 8, 2005 12:46 am
Snuffle -
Noun - The act of breathing heavily through the nose (as when the nose is congested).
Verb - 1. Sniff or smell inquiringly. As a dog searching for the scent of a rabbit?
2. Snuff up mucus through the nose. Self explanatory :-)

Synonym - snivels.

Snivel - Noun - 1. Whining in a tearful manner. 2. The act of breathing heavily through the nose (as when the nose is congested).
Verb - snivel, (sniveled, sniveling, or snivelled, snivelling)
1. Talk in a tearful manner. 2. Snuff up mucus through the nose. 3. Cry or whine with snuffling.

Synonym - snuffle.

Very good connection Catherine!

With the antagonism between those two, it does make it seem to be something more than just a childish leftover, though neither have gotten beyond their teens in terms of personal growth. Ought to be interesting!

Edit - JKR loves to play with words too :-)

...toddles off to bed...


Lina - Apr 8, 2005 3:17 am (#1537 of 2980)
I like this idea of "Snuffle" and "Snivel" being alike. Although "Snivel" seems to imply whining, it could be considered as poking the nose to everywhere (where it doesn't belong). And it is not impossible that it could be applied to Sirius too.


GryffEndora - Apr 8, 2005 11:08 am (#1538 of 2980)
TBE - thanks for that great research! It's very interesting that Sirius gave himself a nickname so close to the one he gave Severus. I am only guessing that he gave Severus the nickname. It is not stated in cannon as far as I am aware. The reason I think Sirius named Snivellus is because he is the one who uses the name the most, from my recollection.


Gina R Snape - Apr 8, 2005 3:30 pm (#1539 of 2980)
Actually, I can't recall anyone but Sirius calling Snape Snivellus.


mooncalf - Apr 8, 2005 4:19 pm (#1540 of 2980)
Hmm, that is something to think about. I would certainly assume that Sirius came up with the name Snivellus, but I'm not so sure that he gave himself the name Snuffles.

Remember in the Edits section of her web site, JKR talks about a batty old dog-lover who lives in Hogsmeade? I had assumed that she had come up with the name Snuffles. I can picture her, in her flapping carpet slippers, surrounded by semi-stray dogs, feeding, petting and naming every dog that comes by. Snuffles sounds like the sort of name a batty old dog-lover would come up with, and Sirius, in his dog form, had always been known as Padfoot before.


Tomoé - Apr 8, 2005 4:31 pm (#1541 of 2980)
'All right, Snivellus? said James loudly. (OoP ch.28)

So James used the name too.


Gina R Snape - Apr 9, 2005 7:37 am (#1542 of 2980)
Edited Apr 9, 2005 8:38 am
Ok. I downloaded the Scholastic countdown desktop. In addition to a countdown to HbP, it has a fact of the day. Yesterday's fact of the day stated that 5th years are allowed to roam the hallways until 9pm. 9pm?!?! Doesn't this seem a bit early?

Well, the reason I am posting it on the Snape thread is because we know Snape roams the corridors at night. I always envisioned him up in the middle of the night looking to catch Potter and other kids out of bed doing wrong. But you know, if 5th years can stay out to 9pm, then it's possible Harry was out no later than say 10 or 11pm. It really changes my view of things. Especially, Snape could easily be in bed by midnight most nights and up for 7am breakfast, not prowling the corridors at 3am.


Marie E. - Apr 9, 2005 12:03 pm (#1543 of 2980)
Does make Snape seem a little less obsessed with catching Harry, now doesn't it?


Ff3girl - Apr 9, 2005 12:42 pm (#1544 of 2980)
I downloaded that desktop counter too! The funny thing is, I was thinking that they could have given us a better one since (I had assumed) we already knew that since the DA meetings were always supposed to be out by 9:00. Am I remembering wrong? I have to admit, the view of Snape as prowling at 3:00 am nightly would be very different if in fact it were really 10:30 pm...


GryffEndora - Apr 9, 2005 12:56 pm (#1545 of 2980)
Ff3girl - I agree! So far every fact of the day has been something I already knew. However, today's fact "Flagrate! will close a door and mark it with a fiery 'X'" Made me say "Is that true? I know it marks a fiery X but I didn't think it also closed the door.


Susan Bones - Apr 11, 2005 9:18 pm (#1546 of 2980)
The Lexicon does not mention anything about closing the door.


Ff3girl - Apr 11, 2005 10:06 pm (#1547 of 2980)
Edited Apr 11, 2005 11:08 pm
Hm... you may be right. I don't recall the "Flagrate" closing the door, either. Maybe they made a mistake!! It wouldn't be the first time the fans have caught one. ^_~

But moving back to Snape... Here's something I've always wondered. Well, since my second reading, anyway. In the last chapter, when Snape catches Harry trying to hex Malfoy,he asks Harry what he is doing. Harry replies "Trying to decide which curse to put on Malfoy, sir."

And then Snape stares at him.

He doesn't glare, he doesn't sneer, he doesn't smirk. He stares. To me, if he had a blank face at a comment like that, he was trying not to show emotion. Obviously seeing Harry acting like that totally threw him off, but what exactly was he thinking?! I really wonder... Any ideas?


septentrion - Apr 12, 2005 2:02 am (#1548 of 2980)
Good catch Ff3Girl ! Did he think Harry was at least growing up by standing up to him ? Or did he saw James in him ? Or was it just astonishment and he will think of it later ? His reaction to Harry's behaviour is rather mechanic, kind of reflex : he takes point (or tries to) to Gryffindor, then he probably thinks of putting him in detention but he is interrupted by McGonagall's arrival. And if his becoming of McGonagall was in the same time sincere and a relief to be put out what he felt like an embarrassing situation ?


Gina R Snape - Apr 12, 2005 6:48 am (#1549 of 2980)
Edited Apr 12, 2005 7:50 am
It struck me that Snape was probably taken a little off guard. On the one hand, Harry is flaunting the rules. On the other hand, he managed to call Snape 'sir'!

An automatic reaction of taking points and awarding detention is something he can do without thinking, without registering emotion. But in light of everything that transpired just prior, Snape may just be trying to get Hogwarts 'back to normal' as it were. After all, Harry had a major battle at the Ministry and Draco's father is in Azkaban and Snape was running around the forest looking for the kids and managing the slytherins and so on not too long before. Something like this little scuffle between the boys is so minor by comparison it might be an amusing relief to see business as usual between the two.

Then again, Snape will have his hands full in HbP I am sure. With Draco, other DE-aligned Slytherins, conflict raging, etc. I don't envy his position as head of house.


Weeny Owl - Apr 12, 2005 7:56 am (#1550 of 2980)
I agree with him being caught off guard, but in addition to what you said, Gina, he might also have been a tad surprised at Harry's honesty. Harry wasn't trying to hide anything or explain away his reason for having his wand pointed at Draco... he merely told it like it was. I'm sure that would have surprised Snape.
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Gina R Snape - Apr 12, 2005 8:06 am (#1551 of 2980)
Yes, Weeny. That blatant honesty is what I think caught him so off guard!


Choices - Apr 12, 2005 8:15 am (#1552 of 2980)
I agree, it was the fact that Harry didn't lie about what he was contemplating that threw Snape off guard. I found Harry's reply to be one of the really funny lines in the books. I can just hear him saying it so matter-of-factly. LOL


T Brightwater - Apr 12, 2005 12:17 pm (#1553 of 2980)
I doubt that students stand up to Snape very often. He may have suddenly realized that Harry has more strength and courage than he had given him credit for. He may also have realized that overt and total war had been declared.


Gina R Snape - Apr 12, 2005 12:27 pm (#1554 of 2980)
He may also have realized that overt and total war had been declared.

That's a very good point, T!


MickeyCee3948 - Apr 12, 2005 7:44 pm (#1555 of 2980)
I think that for the first time Snape saw through his legilimency that not only was Harry's telling him the whole truth but that Harry's attitude towards him had changed. No longer a scared young boy who feared the big bad Professor but a young man who finally knows his place and the role he must play regardless of Snape and his biases.

Mikie


Susan Bones - Apr 12, 2005 10:48 pm (#1556 of 2980)
Hello. I'm a newly registered participant, although I've been reading for a while. I hope you don't mind if I change the subject.

I was recently listening to "Snape's Worst Memory" from OoP and recalled previous discussions here saying that Snape's treatment of Harry (after Snape caught him in the pensieve) was an inappropriate way for a teacher to treat a student -- that he was physically abusive. The thought occurred to me that in our world I would agree 100%. However, I'm wondering if the standards of treatment might be different for wizards because they seem to be more physically "hardy" than muggles. I remember Hagrid being scandalized that James and Lily could be killed in a car crash, as if any decent wizard could never be hurt in this way. And at Hogwarts the kids regularly take more physical abuse (for example, during Quidditch practice and games or from magical creatures they're studying) than muggle kids would at muggle school. In this context, maybe Snapes's treatment of Harry is less inappropriate than we might think at first.

Hmm. Maybe this idea WAS mentioned during a previous discussion. (When the idea occurred to me, I thought it was original...)


Cornelia - Apr 13, 2005 8:05 am (#1557 of 2980)
Didn´t Harry think that he would never forgive Snape, just a moment earlier? I wonder if Snape felt like looking in a mirror, as he heard that "Sir", if Harry said it sarcastically?

I´m wondering what would have happened without McGonagall? CAPS-LOCK-Harry hexing Snape?


Choices - Apr 13, 2005 8:28 am (#1558 of 2980)
Edited Apr 13, 2005 9:29 am
Susan Bones - I think you have a good idea about wizards being of a hardier nature than muggles. I have put forth the idea myself that the wizard world operates in a different way - they have different standards and ways of doing things and yes, they are more physically sturdy than we (muggles) are. I'm not saying their ways are totally different from ours, but they are a bit different. I'm not excusing what Snape did, but maybe it was not as bad (by their standards) as we tend to think.


Solitaire - Apr 13, 2005 9:50 am (#1559 of 2980)
I suspect, Cornelia, that in that brief moment when Harry was in desperate fear for Sirius's life, he may have forgotten to be arrogant or mistrustful in his overwhelming fear for Sirius. I believe that this was one of those rare moments when Harry had no "defenses up" against Snape. Time alone will tell when we shall see another such moment.

Solitaire


Potions Mistress - Apr 13, 2005 11:35 am (#1560 of 2980)
But it is that lack of "defenses" as Solitaire puts it that I think both Harry and Snape need to see each other in a realistic light.

~pm


Catherine - Apr 13, 2005 2:00 pm (#1561 of 2980)
But it is that lack of "defenses" as Solitaire puts it that I think both Harry and Snape need to see each other in a realistic light. --Potions Mistress

They do need to see one another clearly. I'm reminded throughout my readings of HP a certain passage about "becoming a man and putting away childish things" and "seeing through a glass darkly, but then, face to face."

Snape and Sirius are fine examples of the "slow acting venom" of bitterness. Harry has cause for resentment, but it would show his "heart" saving him if he can master himself, and see through more charitable eyes, instead of being blinded by grudges and old wounds.


Choices - Apr 13, 2005 4:44 pm (#1562 of 2980)
I love that passage Catherine - nice analogy!!


Susan Bones - Apr 13, 2005 8:45 pm (#1563 of 2980)
So maybe that brief and subtle interaction between Snape and Harry at the end foreshadows a new understanding between them that had started during Occlumency lessons when they see pieces of each other's histories. Harry is growing stronger, standing up to Snape, but also developing a deeper understanding of Snape and of his own not-so-perfect father. And Snape is starting to see Harry, more clearly, as not like James.

Of course, since Harry has just indicated he can never forgive Snape, the whole scene is (characteristically) ambiguous.


Ff3girl - Apr 13, 2005 9:05 pm (#1564 of 2980)
Edited Apr 13, 2005 10:06 pm
Yay! Such great ideas. This has always been one of the passages that I've thought about a lot whenever I read OOTP. It's only too bad that I missed participating in the convsersation that ensued. T_T Silly me and my busy-ness.

I've always considered him using his occlumency right there, too. Then after that, I've always been wondering where else in the books he is using his occlumency... Kind of impossible to tell for sure, I suppose.

I've also considered the possibility that although he is a "superb occlumens" he may not be that hot of a legilimens. Maybe he can't always tell when people are lying to him! I think one of the circumstances in which this might have happened could be in POA, when Snape catches Harry after having been in Hogsmeade. I guess what I mean to say is-- Snape could use his common sense to tell he was lying, but then when Lupin came to back Harry up, Snape couldn't say or do anything because he couldn't tell either of them were lying.

Then of course, maybe you could credit that to the possibility of Lupin knowing some occlumency/legilimency... *sigh* So many unknowns, so many possibilities.


Susan Bones - Apr 13, 2005 9:28 pm (#1565 of 2980)
The Lexicon has a great list called something like "Instances when legilimency may have been used" under the description of legilimency. There are several instances throughout the books when it seems possible Snape is successfully reading Harry's mind....


Ff3girl - Apr 13, 2005 9:50 pm (#1566 of 2980)
Wow, thanks! I didn't even know that. *Off to Lexicon*


Lina - Apr 14, 2005 2:18 am (#1567 of 2980)
Edited Apr 14, 2005 3:22 am
I think that the moment in PoA, when Snape catches Harry after having been in Hogsmeade and Lupin came to back Harry up doesn't prove that Snape is bad legilymens. On the contrary. As I wrote before, there is no doubt that Snape knew that Lupin was a good friend with some of manufacturers of the map if not one of them. So he could insist on that matter but I think he didn't want. I even like to imagine that there was going some sort of legilimence conversation between Snape and Lupin at that moment and Lupin saying "You just wish I would tell you!" I think they both tried to hide from Harry all that they knew about it.

And Susan Bones, I think that Hagrid was not scandalized about possibility that they could be injured in a car accident but about the idea of James and Lily using the car at all! They had so many different ways to transport, why use such a muggly invention like the car?

I do not have the feeling that wizards can endure more harm than muggles. I just think that, as Gina pointed before, Snape had a feeling that he could harm Harry much more by using any kind of magic. He was too furious to think if it was appropriate behaviour for a teacher.


Cornelia - Apr 14, 2005 2:39 am (#1568 of 2980)
Edited Apr 14, 2005 3:43 am
I´m always considered him doing his occlumency right there, too.-Ff3girl.

Help me please, I don´t understand where he´s using occlumency


Snuffles - Apr 14, 2005 2:51 am (#1569 of 2980)
Cornelia, Snape uses Occlumency when he is with LV. Occlumency means closing the mind down to outside intrusion. LV is a very good Legilimens and can read peoples mind, so Snape needs to close his down when he is in the company of LV, so he cannot tell when Snape is lying. It stops LV seeing into Snape's thoughts and being able to tell that he is helping DD. (or at least we hope he is helping DD!)


Cornelia - Apr 14, 2005 3:01 am (#1570 of 2980)
Edited Apr 14, 2005 4:05 am
Thanks Snuffles, but I´d like to know which exact quote ff3girl refers to the first time she is mentioning it. Because it doesn´t make sense to use occlumency in the scene with Draco at the end of OotP, I think.


Solitaire - Apr 14, 2005 6:23 am (#1571 of 2980)
Edited Apr 14, 2005 7:24 am
Lina, I felt as you do about why Hagrid reacted as he did to the idea of James and Lily dying in a car crash. But I also wonder if it is possible for Wizards to do some modifying of time without a Time Turner.

Remember when Harry fell off his broom in PoA during the Quidditch match? Hermione tells us that Dumbledore slowed Harry down as he fell. And remember how Ern drives the Knight Bus--right AT people and things, yet he still does not hit them? I'm sure the bus is probably enchanted like the Anglia. But if James and Lily had used a car, they probably would have used an enchanted one, as well. Even if they didn't, it seems that there might be things that a witch or wizard could do to prevent such an accident from happening. Just a thought ...

Solitaire


Gina R Snape - Apr 14, 2005 8:15 am (#1572 of 2980)
I just had a thought! Whenever someone touches Harry to harm/hurt him, they get a little shock and are forced to let go. This even happened to Mr. Dursley as late as OOTP.

But this didn't happen to Snape. Maybe that proves that he wasn't 'too rough' and that his intention was to pull Harry out and make him leave, not do actual physical harm to the boy.


Hollywand - Apr 14, 2005 8:31 am (#1573 of 2980)
It is to Snape's credit that he does not retaliate when Harry wounds him in self-defense during his Occlumency lessons. Snape ends up with an "angry weal" (I believe it's described that way, that's an interesting pun). He asks Harry if it was intentional, guessing that Harry is acting unconsciously in self-defense.


Weeny Owl - Apr 14, 2005 8:36 am (#1574 of 2980)
Thanks Snuffles, but I´d like to know which exact quote ff3girl refers to the first time she is mentioning it. Because it doesn´t make sense to use occlumency in the scene with Draco at the end of OotP, I think.

I think ff3girl meant to say "Legilimency" instead. It's mentioned that Snape is a strong Occlumens, and while it doesn't say he's a strong Legilimens, if he caninterpret when the students are telling lies, then he would have to have a fairly good working knowledge of Legilimency.


Catherine - Apr 14, 2005 9:07 am (#1575 of 2980)
But this didn't happen to Snape. Maybe that proves that he wasn't 'too rough' and that his intention was to pull Harry out and make him leave, not do actual physical harm to the boy. --Gina

That's an interesting thought, Gina. I hadn't noticed that we aren't told if Snape finds it painful to manhandle Harry until you mentioned it.

Perhaps this is the reason why Snape threw Harry away from himself so forcefully? Perhaps Snape was not acting from anger alone, but also reflexively, much in the way one would drop something hot? The only reason I don't think this is very possible is that Umbridge was able to pull Harry's hair without seeming to suffer from ill effects, also.

Hmmm...is JKR being inconsistent with this, or is there another reason why Snape and Umbridge can lay hands on Harry?


Ff3girl - Apr 14, 2005 2:26 pm (#1576 of 2980)
Weeny Owl: I think ff3girl meant to say "Legilimency" instead.

Yes, I did. Sorry 'bout that. *blushes*


Susan Bones - Apr 14, 2005 8:27 pm (#1577 of 2980)
Edited Apr 14, 2005 9:28 pm
Solitaire, my husband agrees with you. He figures Hagrid knows that clever wizards like James and Lily could easily use some kind of magic to prevent a car accident, if they were in an enchanted or non-enchanted car. And you have a point, too, Lina.

Isn't it amazing how many ways one might interpret these subtle reactions of the characters?

Gina, I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't notice the tendency for people hurting Harry to get shocked in this way. Can you give me another example? Thanks. -Sus


Cornelia - Apr 15, 2005 12:46 am (#1578 of 2980)
Thanks, my english is not really up to date and I thought I didn´t understand/missed something.


Weeny Owl - Apr 15, 2005 4:36 am (#1579 of 2980)
I get the feeling that wizardkind is much sturdier than mere Muggles. Look at Lynch at the Quidditch World Cup... crashing to the ground like that would kill a Muggle.

I also have a feeling wizardkind is sturdier because of the possibly toxic substances in potion making. With all the accidents Snape must have to deal with if he weren't able to withstand more than a Muggle, he probably wouldn't have to worry about Voldemort because he'd already be dead.


Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2005 5:09 am (#1580 of 2980)
Susan, I can't go through all the books right now to provide you with examples owing to a major time crunch I am under (so why am I here, you say...?). But the most famous and obvious example was Quirrell.

And of course, after Harry's blood was used in the potion to re-constitute Voldemort, he makes a point of letting everyone know he can now touch Harry.

But I'm afraid those are Voldemort-specific examples. And I know there are others with other people. I just can't think of them now.


Choices - Apr 15, 2005 10:04 am (#1581 of 2980)
I posted this on another thread, but thought it should go here too.

Here's an idea about Snape's attitude towards the kids - I'm not sure I even believe it, but I'll throw it out for general consumption.....

Love - we know how important love is. Harry has love for others - his parents, his friends, Dumbledore, Sirius, etc. In contrast, (for example) Lockhart is arrogant, self-important, pompous - basically only loves and cares for no one but himself. Perhaps Snape knows how important it is that Harry love, not himself, but others. Like Lily, he must be willing to die because of his love for others, if necessary. So, Snape constantly puts Harry down, belittles him, negates everything he does, to keep him focused on helping others and not becoming stuck on himself and how wonderful he is. He doesn't want Harry to become stuck-up and self-important the way Lockhart is. Maybe Snape belittles the others - Neville, Hermione, sometimes Ron, to make Harry feel compassion for them which also takes the focus off Harry. Snape is trying to keep Harry humble and make him concentrate on others rather than himself. Snape knows this will be a vital characteristic for Harry to possess if he is to successfully face and vanquish Voldemort. A "savior" can not love his life so greatly (or care for others so little), that he is unwilling to lay it on the line for those he must save.


Weeny Owl - Apr 15, 2005 12:42 pm (#1582 of 2980)
The problem with that theory, Choices, is that you can take a group of people and treat them all exactly the same way, but have vastly different results with each.

Treating Harry horribly in order to make him better could have just the opposite effect and make Harry turn out to be what Voldemort is. Since no one had had contact with Harry before Hogwarts, no one would know what type of person his truly is.

In the first book, Percy said something along the lines of "That's Professor Quirrell. No wonder he's looking nervous, that's Professor Snape." Ginny said in OotP that Bill didn't like Snape. Since Percy and Bill knew Snape before Harry entered the picture, and if Snape had been nice when he was Bill's teacher, Bill would have been surprised at Snape's meanness, then it seems as if Snape has always been bad tempered, but is just worse with Harry around.


Ponine - Apr 15, 2005 1:04 pm (#1583 of 2980)
Edited Apr 15, 2005 2:05 pm
Wow, so many interesting posts!

Concerning James and Lily, I always thought Hagrid was outraged because the Dursleys trivialized their death. In the wizarding world, they died as heroes, protecting their son - the boy who lived, standing up to the worst, cruelest wizard we know of. It would be like referring to - say - Jeanne D'Arc - and claim she lost her life due to playing with matches, or falling of her horse, for that matter. Basically trivializing and discounting people who fought and died for what they believed in. That is how I have perceived it, anyways.

Harry's various magical outbursts, I always thought of as reflexes, somehow, kneejerk reactions that he can't control - neither stopping or starting them.

Finally, I was reading Choice's post, and I agree with some of it, and disagree with some other things. What I do not see as very likely is that Snape's nasty treatment of Neville, Harry and Hermione in particular, is due to anything but Severus' own issues. I must admit I believe he considers being able to snipe at Harry as one of his few job perks.

Your post got me thinking, though, Choices, because I really think you are on to something when it comes to love, and its importance in the books. And I was thinking, puppies and kittens are hard not to love. The Weasleys, Hermione and all the others are pretty darn lovable, too, so in theory, all the people in Harry's life pose no challenge to care for, you can't help but care about them. (It could certainly be argued that Harry is not a child who has been showered in love growing up, and that his ability to love at all could be seen as a gift itself.) BUT. What about loving the seemingly unlovable? The ones who are not cute, bubbly, pretty or even remotely nice, but who deserve love just the same? Maybe I am becoming way too lofty, and I am not trying to attribute anyone any religious overtones, but - sigh - I am not so sure myself anymore (it really sounded magnificent in my head). I just feel that Harry's ability to love may be challenged considerably. What if Voldemort jumped into Snapes' body - would Harry kill him, or not?

Cross-posted with Weeny - good points, the fact that none of the Wealeys got along with Severus never really dawned on me, even if I remember it now that you mention it Smile


Aud Duck - Apr 15, 2005 4:50 pm (#1584 of 2980)
Edited Apr 15, 2005 5:52 pm
I don't think that Snape's teaching style has ever changed in a fundamental way. I'm sure he was every bit as terrible to Bill as he his to Ron. It's just that, comparatively speaking, he's not that bad to Ron. I mean, sure, he favours the Slytherins. If Ron ever walked in late or spilled something, he would probably be given a detention immediately. There's also the lack of encouragement, and that takes a long time to get accustomed to, even if you're a relatively independent student. No wonder Bill disliked him. However, I do think that Snape considers Harry a special case. I would bet that Snape never made a point of embarrassing Bill on his very first day of Potions class. Snape probably does justify this behaviour by saying he needs to keep Harry humble. It is possible that Snape has some yet-to-be-revealed reason for tormenting Neville. But I think Harry and Neville are exceptions; Snape simply doesn't have much patience with non-Slytherin (or possible non-Draco) incopetence.


Choices - Apr 15, 2005 5:35 pm (#1585 of 2980)
As I said, I don't even think I buy into my Snape theory, but when you throw out even a half-baked idea, it can inspire someone else to start thinking and come up with an even better theory. I am ever in awe of the people on this forum and always find fascinating posts to tweak my interest. Keep up the good work. :-)


Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2005 6:25 pm (#1586 of 2980)
I do think Snape employs a combination of 'tough love' with genuine dislike.


Lina - Apr 15, 2005 10:00 pm (#1587 of 2980)
I do think that Snape believes that it is not good for students to be cuddled. I think that he thinks that it is dangerous for everybody and he thanks to his own destiny that nobody ever cuddled him. Of course, he needs the excuse to give points to Slytherins because he likes to win too.

When it comes to Harry, I think that their relationship is developing. At first, he was convinced that Harry would feel important because he survived LV. He didn't expect that Harry would know almost nothing about that. First mistake. When he found out that Harry is unaware of his meaning to the Wizarding world, he stopped calling him "little hero". He started comparing him with his father which is quite logical - Harry looks too much like his father, and loathes Snape as much as his father.

I think that their relationship is about to become more special now. Too many things have happened between them in OotP not to affect their relationship. I think that Snape has come to know Harry too good to continue comparing him with his father. He is going to become more personal. I have no idea on how will the relationship develop, but I'm sure it is going to change and I doubt they are going to become friends.


Susan Bones - Apr 15, 2005 10:09 pm (#1588 of 2980)
Edited Apr 15, 2005 11:10 pm
I didn't mean for you to have to do a search, Gina. I thought you might have another example in mind when you posted. Thanks for responding.

I always thought the effect on Quirrell from touching Harry was unique to Quirrell-Mort (and Voldemort). Lilly's love, her sacrifice, marked Harry in such a way that the one she was saving him from, Voldemort, could not touch Harry without pain. Then this changed when he got Harry's blood in him at the cemetery ceremony. I didn't interpret this effect as generalizing to anyone who was trying to hurt Harry.

However, Dumbledore does say that Quirrell-Mort could not touch Harry because he was ",,,full of hatred, greed, and ambition...", so maybe anyone with such feelings could be affected in this way when touching Harry. And it definitely seemed like something caused Mr. Dursley to suddenly release Harry at the beginning of OoP.


Solitaire - Apr 16, 2005 1:58 am (#1589 of 2980)
it seems as if Snape has always been bad tempered, but is just worse with Harry around I agree, Weeny. It sounds to me like Snape is and always has been a real pill!

I believe he considers being able to snipe at Harry as one of his few job perks LOL Ponine! Leave it to Snape to find joy in the perverse. I do believe he loves tormenting all of his students--especially the Gryffindors--but Harry is an extra-special treat for him.

As to Harry killing Voldemort if he jumped into Snape's body ... I'm not sure. Can that even happen? I got the idea that Voldemort had to convince Quirrell to let him "live" in his body. Is it possible for Voldemort to just possess a more experienced wizard the way he did with Harry? I can't see Snape allowing it to happen. He might be more on his guard and know how to prevent it. Possibly Harry did not have the experience to stop it. Or possibly the scar permits Voldemort more "access" to Harry than he has to others. Just wondering ...

Solitaire


Cornelia - Apr 16, 2005 4:45 am (#1590 of 2980)
Snape might use occlumency if LV trys to possess him.

I don´t know where their relationship is going, too. We´ve seen Snape treating Harry bad, then ignoring him. Maybe they will find a new level of communication after Harry showed him that he is no longer afraid of him. And after Snape has found out what he has found out about Harry (unhappy childhood, not like his father...) and considers that. If they both are willing, they could meet on a level of respect for each other and work together to stop LV running around.


Choices - Apr 16, 2005 8:23 am (#1591 of 2980)
Edited Apr 16, 2005 9:26 am
I have two questions that bother me and I'd love to hear some thoughts about them.

1. Why did James and Snape take such an instant dislike to each other? Did they know each other prior to arriving at Hogwarts? Was it just the fact that Snape was into the Dark Arts and James hated that, or was there more to it? Who started it - surely they didn't just see it other and the hatred began - did James start it or did Snape? What was done that started the hatred? It had to have been going on for some time before Snape's Worst Memory.

2. Why does Snape hate Harry so? It is unreasonable for an adult to hate a child just because he is the son of one's enemy. Harry is not responsible for what James did to Snape. Surely Snape knows how important Harry is to the fate of the Wizard World and that his own future may depend on keeping Harry safe and preparing him for his task with Voldemort? Snape is an intelligent man and a very talented wizard, it is difficult to imagine him harboring such an unreasonable grudge against Harry for so long. Being bullied by someone is no fun, but it happens all the time and doesn't warrant such long lasting hatred. If James had killed someone Snape loved or totally ruined his life, I might understand his feelings, but it was no where near that drastic. At least not that we have been told. Perhaps we will better understand when book 6 is in our hands.


penguin patronus - Apr 16, 2005 9:03 am (#1592 of 2980)
Edited Apr 16, 2005 10:05 am
I wonder when Harry looks a Snape's eyes in SS, and he said it made him think of dark tunnels, if he was accessing and old memory? Like the tunnel leading to the "Shreiking Shack". Probably not, but maybe.


MickeyCee3948 - Apr 16, 2005 10:27 am (#1593 of 2980)
Choices my thoughts on your questions:

1. Could have been instant dislike. Harry and Draco had a definite dislike for each other almost immediately. I also believe Snape who as far as we know was not brought up in a privileged lifestyle may have resented James and the feelings of superiority that he(James)seemed to possess.

2. I believe that Snape's dislike of Harry is part of the prejudice that he held for James. An intelligent person should be able to look beyond these feelings but when it runs this deep then the mere sight of Harry(who is the spitting image of James)would probably be enough to set him off. Also remember that Dumbledore has contributed to Snape's feelings about Harry by letting him get away with so many violations of the school rules(ala James).

Mikie


Solitaire - Apr 16, 2005 10:47 am (#1594 of 2980)
Mikie is right about Harry and Draco. Remember in PS/SS--when they met in Madam Malkin's robe shop and before Harry even knew who Malfoy was--he already didn't like him much from the way Draco talked about Hagrid and other wizards and witches who were "not our kind."

Snape's dislike of Harry is one more indicator of how much he is like Sirius: neither are/were able to let go of the past. Snape is just as firmly rooted in and governed by past hatreds and grudges as Sirius was. That one area is a really strong indicator of the lack of emotional maturity in both of them.

It is interesting that two people who loathed each other so deeply were so alike, isnt it? I find it fascinating, too, that both Snape and Sirius transferred their respective feelings for James--Snape's hatred and Sirius's love--onto Harry. Yet I bet neither of them would ever admit a similarity to the other.

Solitaire


Lina - Apr 16, 2005 12:50 pm (#1595 of 2980)
Cornelia: If they both are willing, they could meet on a level of respect for each other and work together to stop LV running around.

At this moment I imagined a battle against LV where Harry and Snape are on the same side and manage to win him by making good harmonious crosscurses. After the victory, they look each other happily, give each other "five", then remember that they hate each other and give each other some nasty look.

Choices, there are many possible reasons why James and Snape hated each other - they could have known each other before Hogwarts, but it could have been Sirius who knew Snape before and told James some things that made him hate Snape. I just think that all this theories are just as probable as first sight hate.

And about hating Harry, I just think that Snape feels that he didn't have enough time to hate James because of his premature death, so he had to continue to hate somebody. Harry looking so much like his father, just made it easier.


mooncalf - Apr 16, 2005 8:58 pm (#1596 of 2980)
I think that that is the whole point about Snape's feelings for Harry; they are not rational. Yes, Snape is an intelligent man, but there are all kinds of intelligences; Snape is obviously not at his best with "emotional intelligence." We all have blind spots: irrational fears and so on that have nothing to do with how we normally function.

I also think that it is possible to carry scars from adolescent bullying into adulthood. Snape just carries things a little farther than most.


Ydnam96 - Apr 17, 2005 7:28 am (#1597 of 2980)
Mooncalf, I would say you are correct. But, I think we all carry "baggage" from our youth and Snape is definetly not alone in carrying his far into adulthood. Many people are never able to let go of it.


Solitaire - Apr 17, 2005 8:29 am (#1598 of 2980)
Snape is certainly not alone in carrying baggage. Unfortunately, starting out his acquaintance with Harry--a child who, until a few weeks earlier had no idea he was magical--by humiliating him and invoking a 20-year-old grudge he has carried against James and Sirius, casts Snape in a rather ridiculous light. What a mean, twisted soul!

Solitaire


Cornelia - Apr 18, 2005 2:54 am (#1599 of 2980)
Maybe he doesn´t like Harry because of him he lost his loved job as a spy for Dumbledore. Harry destroyed Voldemort and took Snapes chance away to wash his name clean and destroy Voldemort himself, through the information he gave Dumbledore. Harry "stole" Snapes reward for the dangerous work he was doing, Harry overtook him on the way to his goal, destroying LV, Harry became famous he was acclaimed as a hero, Snape got nothing but a job he´s not happy with.

In PoA Harry stole him once again a chance to clear his name and get decorated.


Ponine - Apr 18, 2005 3:22 am (#1600 of 2980)
I was wondering - and if I am repeating old stuff, just redirect me to those posts, if you could.. Smile First, I think we all agree now that we see the WW through Harry's eyes, and consequently also Snape. Now, as far as the ongoing 'thing' between him and Minerva regarding the Housecup - This little relationship of theirs is very sneakily written, and I am never sure whether to interpret it as rivalry with an edge (ie, are there deep feelings of resentment, frustration and gloating) or simply lighthearted rivalry, where Minerva could say 'Bite me, batman!' if she wanted to. I find it so interesting that these two actually do interact, and it may appear - GASP - that there is some humor in the mix, and this is why I think JK is so hesitant to emphasize it, because she does not want us to see him as a decent person, while still throwing enough clues for it all to make sense.

Also, I was wandering why he never ate at #12. If he felt comfortable with the other members, and they all had a decent working relationship, why would he never stay for dinner, not even to annoy Sirius?
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Snuffles - Apr 18, 2005 3:30 am (#1601 of 2980)
Edited Apr 18, 2005 4:37 am
I would think IMO Ponine, that Snape would never mix business with 'pleasure'! He was part of the order, and did whatever he had to do, but eating with the rest of them was definately a no no! I don't think they were the kind of people he would mix with unless he had to.

I'm sure it would annoy Sirius, him being there but the people there were Sirius' friends and I'm sure Severus would not feel comfortable doing the 'polite conversation' thing!

Sorry I only answered the bottom part Ponine, I am at work and the Dementors are prowling!


Weeny Owl - Apr 18, 2005 5:21 am (#1602 of 2980)
I think Snape and McGonagall are friends and not just co-workers. I think they take their rivalry seriously up to a point, in that they do want their houses to win, but realize that house cups will come and go but they could be colleagues for years and years.


Lina - Apr 18, 2005 5:51 am (#1603 of 2980)
Cornelia, I like your idea! I find it very interesting and not at all impossible.

And Snuffles, it would be very interesting to know what is the kind of people Severus would gladly mix with?


Choices - Apr 18, 2005 9:04 am (#1604 of 2980)
I think Snape is definitely a "loner" - he does not easily mix with others and perfers his own company to the company of people he does not really care for. He attends the gatherings he has to attend and shuns the others. I don't think he wants "entanglements" - he needs to not form friendships or other relationships because as a spy, he must remain free to do his secret works and not have to answer to friends or loved ones. Should he die in the performance of his work, no one would suffer from his absence. I do see Snape dying in one of the books to come. I think he will die heroically to save someone. JKR is not going to change him or make him into Mr. Niceguy while he lives, so her only choice is to kill him off while he is making a heroic sacrifice. He will be dead, but fondly remembered for what he did to save someone. Just my opinion.....:-)


librarian314 - Apr 18, 2005 10:34 am (#1605 of 2980)
Hey all!

Solitaire - It's nice to see that someone else out there sees the similarities between Severus and Sirius.

I was first struck with them back over the winter holidays when the art by Laura Freeman was on the Lexicon's home page. The glint in Sirius' eyes was surprising similar to the glint she'd drawn in some of her picture's of Snape. It got me to thinking about just how alike the two were and how that could have been part of the reason for their enmity.

I think the two of them saw in each other the things they hated about themselves the most. Severus saw emotions run amok in Sirius and Sirius saw pure blooded superiority and intellect over feelings in Severus. Each represented to the other the things they least wanted to be.

*michelle the librarian**


Susan Bones - Apr 18, 2005 10:02 pm (#1606 of 2980)
Edited Apr 18, 2005 11:02 pm
That's an interesting idea, librarian314. It makes a lot of sense.


Tomoé - Apr 20, 2005 9:40 pm (#1607 of 2980)
Edited Apr 20, 2005 10:42 pm
Choices -> Why does Snape hate Harry so? It is unreasonable for an adult to hate a child just because he is the son of one's enemy.

Here's my 2 knuts about it, I believe what Snape hates so much about Harry is he is not no as good as his father when learning magic. Snape expected James's son to be annoyingly good, but he's just an average student.

It seems Snape was the Hermione of his year, the way he behaved in his OWL exam (writing much more than needed, doing the test over again after the test was finished) was pretty much how Hermione worked the Charms test. However, Snape was not the top student of his year, James and Sirius were. No matter how much effort he did to his work, James and Sirius always did better, effortlessly.

So when Harry came to Hogwarts, Snape was really desappointed to discover that he had all his father's default, but not James's outstanding capacity to learn. He is also desappointed that Harry didn't try to study hard instead, as Hermione does, the boy who lives can't rely only on luck to vanquish the Dark Lord, he is already forty years behind Voldemort, magic-wise, he should be more serious about his studies.

Harry did show some outstanding capacities to learn or use some magic (the patronus, the overthrow of the Imperius curse, the long accio in the first task, etc.) so James's potential is there, just out of reach. Would the kid bother to make the effort, he would have the potential to be Voldemort's equal, but he's making no effort!

So I think Snape try to force some decent performances out of Harry by lowering his marks, smashing his samples and provoking him. He know Harry is a genius, but he just don't bother and that's getting on Snape's nerves.


frogface - Apr 21, 2005 12:26 am (#1608 of 2980)
I don't agree that Harry is making no effort, I don't agree with that at all. James and Sirius were exceptional students, it would be hard for anyone to live up to that, even and espcially their sons. And Snape has been horrible to Harry from the word go, before he even had enough evidence to deduce that Harry was either an exceptional student or an average one. I think there are probably more issues that will arise to do with the past to explain why Snape hated James so much (I for one believe it has more to do with just bullying) but I don't think Snape simply just believes Harry is a bit lazy, and I don't believe he is either.


Tomoé - Apr 21, 2005 5:20 am (#1609 of 2980)
Edited Apr 21, 2005 6:31 am
Oh my, I express myself poorly once again ...

Harry is doing his best with his circumstances. And Harry is not as outstandingly good student as his father was, but he doesn't have to. However, in Snape's mind, he should. In Snape's mind, he's making no effort and he wastes his talent away. In Snape's mind, he should stop lurking in corridors at night to solve silly mysteries and do his job, which is to study magic.

Snape disliked Harry from very the start, because he was James's son and James's living portrait. He expected Harry to be as good as his father and to be arrogant as James. With his bad feelings towards Harry, he can see him as an arrogant, self-centered rule breaker, but he can't see the talent James possessed. But Harry has plenty of talent of his own right, just not James's capacity to learn quickly and effortlessly, but Snape can't see that.

Just like Sirius, who was disappointed when Harry didn't want to take the risk of seeing him on the Hogsmeade week-end, Snape is disappointed not to see James's talent in Harry.


MickeyCee3948 - Apr 21, 2005 9:07 am (#1610 of 2980)
Sorry Tomoe but I can't agree with you. Snape has had it in for Harry from the sorting feast in SS/PS. He has never given Harry a chance.

Yes, Harry may not be applying himself as James would have done. But Harry found out he was a wizard barely a month before starting at Hogwarts. James was presumedly brought up in a wizarding family. Snape feels the need to downgrade and humiliate Harry during his first class.

This is not Harry's fault it is a personality flaw in Snape and there is no other answer or excuse which is acceptable. JM2K's.

Mikie


Gina R Snape - Apr 21, 2005 10:24 am (#1611 of 2980)
Edited Apr 21, 2005 11:26 am
Well, I think from the start Snape saw Harry as someone the wizarding world deified. But he didn't really 'earn' what happened. He seems completely unaware of the fact Harry was raised by muggles, and at the same time knows that Harry's father was arrogant. So a part of him wants to quash any arrogance tendencies Harry may have, to treat him like everyone else. But he doesn't treat Harry like anyone else, he goes overboard to prove his point. In PoA, Fudge tells Snape how 'you know, we bend the rules for Harry' or something along those lines. And Snape says he does just the opposite so Harry feels he is just like everyone else. This might even be an overreaction to DD's orders not to let Harry know about the prophesy, come to think about it!

Add to that, Snape knows full well how vitally important Harry is to the future of the wizarding world. Harry is an average student, with some extraordinary talent in DADA. But he does not try as hard as he might. He is, in fact, a typical boy who sometimes sets himself to task, but who quite often skivves off homework to hang out, play quidditch, just . . . be a boy. That must be maddeningly frustrating for Snape, who has put his life on the line to protect him and knows how important it is for Harry to learn.


Choices - Apr 21, 2005 10:41 am (#1612 of 2980)
I agree Gina. I see Snape and Dumbledore as having the same goals with Harry. Afterall, Dumbledore placed Harry with the Dursleys, primarily for the protection there, but I think also to keep Harry grounded, out of the limelight, until he was ready. Dumbledore and Snape are both working to prepare Harry for what is to come, but Dumbledore just goes about it in a kinder, gentler way. Understandably, Snape with all his "baggage" from the past, is more demanding and less patient with Harry, but I think he knows how important it is to protect Harry and have him ready for what he has to do.


Hexenhammer - Apr 21, 2005 4:29 pm (#1613 of 2980)
I’m sure it has been mentioned before but here goes. Snape is teaching Harry things that no book can. The first lesson was “Fame clearly isn’t everything.” Some people will dislike Harry by virtue of him being the Boy-Who-Lived. I don’t think a lot of these life lessons are consciously taught by Snape but they are things Harry needs to learn; such as you have to play by other people’s rules if they have the power.

“What’s the point of power if you can’t abuse people with it?” Dark Schneider -Hexenhammer


Hollywand - Apr 21, 2005 7:58 pm (#1614 of 2980)
Well, Dumbledore is awfully powerful, and he doesn't choose to abuse people with it, including Severus.

Rowling portrays harsh characters, such as Snape, but she does not lionize them. That's a critical distinction.


Miriam Huber - Apr 22, 2005 10:17 pm (#1615 of 2980)
Did you see the "Snape trial" to be happening at Accio? What do you think?


Solitaire - Apr 22, 2005 11:35 pm (#1616 of 2980)
He seems completely unaware of the fact Harry was raised by muggles

I totally disagree. I can't imagine Dumbledore not having briefed his staff on this important piece of information. Even supposing this had happened--which I'll not believe until it is verified by JKR--we know Snape at least occasionally hangs out in the staff room (we saw this in PoA), where I'm sure discussion of Harry must have happened prior to his arrival.

I'm quite sure Snape knows exactly where Harry has been the past eleven years, realizes he finally has an upper hand on a Potter, and uses it--in the process establishing himself as a big bully.

Solitaire


dizzy lizzy - Apr 23, 2005 12:52 am (#1617 of 2980)
I'm quite sure Snape knows exactly where Harry has been the past eleven years, realizes he finally has an upper hand on a Potter, and uses it--in the process establishing himself as a big bully. Solitaire.

Why is it that when I read this sentence; I think of my Macca (who just so happens to be top dog), bullying the other dog, Sami, by snapping and snarling at him (Sami), for no reason at all.

There must be a good reason for Macca's (and Snape's) behaviour. And neither are likely to tell us in the near future why they are behaving the way they are. For starters, Macca is unlikely to learn human speech in the near future, and Snape is highly unlikely to explain himself.

Thus all we are left with is guesses and some of our guesses to do with Snape's beahaviour and motivations must be pretty close to being right. *crosses fingers and hope she's right!*

Lizzy

PS I edited this twice in order to try and say what I wanted to say. Not sure if it came out right though.


frogface - Apr 23, 2005 2:18 am (#1618 of 2980)
I think that if Snape ever grows out of his bitterness (for lack of a better descriptive word!) He may end up something like the real Moody. Quite clever and wise, yet without a great deal of gentleness. He will probably end up...actually he probably already is, quite paranoid. Which isn't surprising giving his job as a spy. They both seem to be strictly focused on the job at hand and both take themselves seriously, although Snape tends to let his wounds get on top of his judgement. If he can mature enough to put the past where it belongs he might end up like Moody, dedicated to his job, trying to do the right thing, but by no means perfect (which of course no one is). I also realise that alot of people will disagree with this idea, there are alot of differences between the two characters, and I am just drawing attention to some of the parrellels to see if it can make for interesting discussion Smile


Ponine - Apr 23, 2005 3:33 am (#1619 of 2980)
You know, frogface - I kinda like that! I agree with you, Lizzy and Solitaire Smile

I think that at times Snape may be attributed with much more emotional and social intelligence than he deserves... (go ahead, pelt me...Wink


Solitaire - Apr 23, 2005 7:49 am (#1620 of 2980)
Dizzy, of course, Snape has a reason for bullying Harry. He bullies because he is a bully. What's more, Harry isn't the only person he bullies. He bullies Hermione, and he bullies Neville.

I have no doubt that past experiences may have initially led Snape to bully when he finally realized he was stronger than some people. However, he is in charge of children now, and continuing to bully them--knowing they are not allowed to fight back--is is unfair. And Snape is also unfair and partial--two traits that accompany his bullying personality rather well.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Apr 24, 2005 7:00 am (#1621 of 2980)
Snape holds on to his grudges with a death grip, and this has distorted him so much that he really can't see straight. I don't think he cares that Harry is not James, because he actually resents James for being dead and beyond his vengeance. (I suspect we'll find that he feels the same about Sirius.) I'm worried that this will prove a weakness in his activities as a spy; that at some crucial moment his hatred for James, Sirius, and Harry as their living representative will overcome his reason, and even his loyalty to Dumbledore.

Forgiveness doesn't mean pretending everything was all right, that no harm was done; it means letting go of the hate and not letting the past control and constrict your thinking. You accept the past, you accept that there is no way to make it not have happened, or to even the score, and you get on with your life. Once you've done that, you can learn from the past, and even redeem it. If you don't do it, you end up imprisoned in the past, and even repeating it, which is what Snape is doing. All of Harry's ill-feeling toward Snape was provoked by Snape himself, because of Snape's dwelling on his grudge against James.


Solitaire - Apr 24, 2005 7:08 am (#1622 of 2980)
All of Harry's ill-feeling toward Snape was provoked by Snape himself

Absolutely, TB. I just hope that Harry does not find himself falling into the trap of being unable to let go of his hard feelings toward Snape. Harry's heart and his capacity for love are the things that have set him apart and given him the ability to escape Voldemort thus far. I would hate to see his grief for Sirius harden into resentment against Snape--whom he blames at least partially for the events of that night.

I have a couple of close relatives who really can hang onto grudges and resentment, so I have seen "up close and personal" the destructive power of such feelings. I hope Remus and Dumbledore are able to help Harry move forward and avoid this trap.

Solitaire


librarian314 - Apr 26, 2005 8:20 am (#1623 of 2980)
Hey all!

Not to change the topic too drastically, but it's been a couple of days since anyone posted anything...

How much do y'all think Severus knows about Peter Pettigrew? Could Severus have cleared Sirius of the charges of killing James, Lily, and all those Muggles?

When you look at the time line, in 1979, Peter becomes a double agent, working for Voldemort. Two years later, in August 1981, Severus applies for a position at Hogwarts. There are two years when both Peter and Severus worked for Voldemort. Did they know each other then? How much did each other know?

Since we found out that Pettigrew was the spy and is still working for Voldemort, I've always wondered if there was a connection between Severus and Peter and what it was.

Y'all take care!

*michelle the librarian**


Tomoé - Apr 26, 2005 11:21 am (#1624 of 2980)
I don't think he knew, he acted like he believe Sirius was the culprit in the Shrieking Shack.


T Brightwater - Apr 26, 2005 3:09 pm (#1625 of 2980)
I'm not sure; he seemed to think that Sirius deserved to have his soul sucked out for what he did to Snape when they were both at Hogwarts; it was as if he didn't care whether or not Sirius was guilty of betraying the Potter and killing a dozen Muggles.


Puck - Apr 26, 2005 7:26 pm (#1626 of 2980)
I always got the feeling the Voldy didn't let everyone in on everything. I believe only he ever knew who all the DE were. It was a protection. I believe this is from GoF when Karkaroff is spilling names in exchange for freedom. He states that they never really knew who all the others were. Moody mubles something about how that was because Voldy wanted to prevent someone like Karkaroff from turning them all in.

So, no, I doubt Snape knew. I suspect he was the one who told DD about the plan to kill Harry. If he had known it was Peter, he would have told DD and Peter would never have been made secret keeper.


Cornelia - Apr 26, 2005 11:25 pm (#1627 of 2980)
But if Snape has really been in Godrics Hollow to warn the Potters, he has to have known. Peter was secret-keeper and therefore only he could tell where the Potters were. He must have told Snape.

If he found out the things about Peter, when Peter told LV about the Potters. Then there would be no time left to warn DD.

About Sirius. Sirius had a good reason to kill Peter after he betrayed the Potters. So Severus could believe that Sirius killed indeed Peter and did all that collateral-damage. He really thought that Sirius was Peters/Muggles murderer and deserved the kiss.

But that doesn´t explain why he wanted Remus also to be soul-sucked.


T Brightwater - Apr 27, 2005 4:54 am (#1628 of 2980)
Do we know that Snape was ever at Godric's Hollow? I know it's not in the books; has Jo said anything to that effect in an interview or other appearance?


Chemyst - Apr 27, 2005 5:20 am (#1629 of 2980)
Edited Apr 27, 2005 6:35 am
Do we know that Snape was ever at Godric's Hollow? [...] has Jo said anything to that effect in an interview or other appearance?

No. The theory was based on JKR having a "hands on" role in writing a scene in the PS/SS movie, so it's quasi-canon at best. Madam Pince, original poster, explains: "...it stemmed from an interview with Steve Kloves or Chris Columbus who said something like that scene was JKR's baby and written and detailed by her personally. That's the only reason I even gave this theory any consideration in the first place -- if I thought it was written by Kloves I wouldn't give it a second thought."

You can find quotes on Catherine's post #285 of the "Was Snape at...?" thread in the Theories section. In the movie, the character is a shadowy figure in a doorway, but never identified conclusively as being Snape.


Puck - Apr 27, 2005 5:00 pm (#1630 of 2980)
I'm still not convinced. If Peter told LV, then Snape could have found out from Voldemort himself, or another DE, not necessarily Peter. I believe he would have told DD Peter was the spy, even if it was after the fact, and even if he believe Sirus killed Peter and the muggles.

Just a thought, it suddenly makes sense that if Snape was at Godrics Hollow, perhaps Voldy -in his diminished form- saw him arrive. That would explain the line "One, I believe, has left us forever" in GoF. How else would he have knowm Snape had switched sides?


Gina R Snape - Apr 27, 2005 5:29 pm (#1631 of 2980)
Yeah, I don't buy the Snape-at-Godric's-Hollow theory. I still think Snape was the one who overheard the prophecy and alerted Dumbledore to the attack the Dark Lord orchestrated on the Potters. I think Snape tipping him off was the reason the Potters did the fidelius charm. But there is no indication whatsoever that Snape knew about Peter Pettigrew. Snape ran after Potter and co. to protect them. He believed they were in real danger. But he had no idea Pettigrew was a rat, or at the shrieking shack.


Solitaire - Apr 27, 2005 9:55 pm (#1632 of 2980)
Based on what Dumbledore says about the eavesdropper, it sounds to me like he is the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy--although it was incomplete information. Do you believe it was Snape who told Voldemort about the prophecy? If so, no wonder he feels guilty.

Solitaire


Cornelia - Apr 28, 2005 12:37 am (#1633 of 2980)
So he told first LV about the prophecy and after that DD?


Gina R Snape - Apr 28, 2005 5:41 am (#1634 of 2980)
Yes, I believe Snape is the DE who overheard the prophesy at the Hogs Head. I believe he was an active, though wavering DE at the time and ran to tell the Dark Lord. I think it took them several months to figure out which families the boy might come from. And by the time they figured out it could be the Longbottoms or the Potters, Snape: a)had enough of the DE's way of life; b)realised he had a life debt to James Potter; and c) saw a way out of the DEs along with a way to repay his debt by turning to DD.

That's my theory, in a very small nutshell.


Solitaire - Apr 28, 2005 9:22 am (#1635 of 2980)
Thank you, Gina. I guess meeting you helped him turn his life around.


Gina R Snape - Apr 28, 2005 9:48 am (#1636 of 2980)
LOL. Aaaaah doooo maaaah best.


rambkowalczyk - Apr 28, 2005 1:14 pm (#1637 of 2980)
Although I think "Snape at Godric's Hollow is an interesting theory it does not explain how Snape could get there unless Peter told him and I don't think Peter told him. I do not think he knew that Peter was working for Voldemort.

Like Gina I think it was Snape who warned Dumbledore that Voldemort was going to kill the Potters and could very well have warned James not to use Sirius Black as the secret keeper. Consider this quote from the shrieking shack in POA.

"Like father, like son,Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black---"

I do not think he was the eavesdropper.

Someone earlier questioned why Snape hated Remus or why he seemed so antagonistic towards Remus that night. I think Snape believes Remus was in on the joke and we all know his ability to forgive and forget. The other reason is fear. Snape knows that there is a full moon that night and that once the moon is up Harry and friends are in danger. I believe that is why he was so quick to tie and gag Remus in the shrieking shack.


Choices - Apr 28, 2005 4:40 pm (#1638 of 2980)
That's a good point - if Snape was making and giving the potion to Remus, then he definitely would know when the moon was full and Remus was about to experience it's effects. Indeed, they were all in danger (except Sirius and Peter who could transform).


Shannon aka Brammwell - Apr 28, 2005 7:16 pm (#1639 of 2980)
Edited Apr 28, 2005 8:17 pm
One small point to note in your thread, in the shrieking shack in PoA Sirius stated that it was his idea to used Pettigrew as the secret keeper because he'd believed it would throw Voldemort off and Voldemort would automatically assume it was him and go after Sirius. Thus I don't believe that Snape was involved in that decision. Although I do agree that Snape did inform DD about the danger to the Potter's which may have been the tip that alerted them to go into hiding.


rambkowalczyk - Apr 29, 2005 3:54 am (#1640 of 2980)
Dumbledore also wasn't involved in James' decision to use Peter either. James gave the impression to both Dumbledore and Snape that Sirius was going to be the secret keeper.


Ponine - Apr 29, 2005 5:09 am (#1641 of 2980)
I can understand why James did not feel inclined to share that sort of information with Snape, but what would be his reasons for not communicating to Dumbledore what happened? Did he not trust Dumbledore either?


Cornelia - Apr 29, 2005 5:43 am (#1642 of 2980)
But if James had talked about that Peter was Secret-keeper, Dumbledore would have known who the traitor was - not Sirius.


Lina - Apr 29, 2005 5:51 am (#1643 of 2980)
I don't think it's a matter of trust. It might be more a matter of security, but even more, I just think that they didn't want to bother him with their decisions. I can just imagine it. All of them had full hands of work and maybe didn't find the time to tell him. I think it might be possible that they didn't take this threat too seriously - why on Earth would such a powerful wizard like Voldemort go after such a little kid. They might have thought that he might go after him only when he grows up. That might be another reason why Snape considers James arrogant.


Gina R Snape - Apr 29, 2005 5:53 am (#1644 of 2980)
I think it was a very last-minute decision to go with Peter. And not for nothing, but Snape was right once again in not trusting Sirius. Though his motives might have seemed honourable, he in reality did not take on the task expected of him and in an act of unforseen poor judgment gave it to someone who turned out to be exactly and spectacularly the wrong person.

So in my estimation, Snape's hunch was right all along in not trusting Sirius.


librarian314 - Apr 29, 2005 12:47 pm (#1645 of 2980)
Hey all!

Sirius, despite all is ability, was not blessed with great gobs of common sense. He tends to act on his feelings first, rather than think out the ramifications of those actions. Severus, on the other hand, for the most part (except where Harry is concerned, occasionally) understands that his actions have consequences, perhaps even unforeseen ones, and plans and acts accordingly.

I think that Severus knew that Peter had been recruited by the DEs because he was the one to give Voldemort the idea to recruit him. I think that when he left school, Severus told Voldemort all he knew about MWPP. This included Remus being a werewolf, their nicknames, the creation of the marauders' map, and perhaps even the invisibility cloak and that Peter, Sirius, and James were unregistered animagi.

Another aspect Severus was sure to have discussed was the social interaction between the four. Remember, Severus followed MWPP around looking for ways to get them in trouble. He would have seen how they interacted and the social hierarchy within the group.

From "Snape's Worst Memory" we see that Peter is pretty much a sycophant, fawning all over James and Sirius. We also are lead to believe that Peter was less academically astute than the others. From all that we see, Peter is a follower, that can be easily swayed, and thus ripe for "conversion".

With this information from Snape, I believe that the DEs formulated a plan that alienated Remus from the others and insinuated Peter into a trusted position.

Did Severus know by the time he left school that James, Sirius, and Peter were Animagi? Maybe -- it depends on how circumspect the boys were in learning it. Did they check the books out of the library (and leave a trail like we see with Quidditch Through the Ages) or did they use the invisibility cloak to pilfer them and put them back? If Severus found enough clues, he could have worked it out.

Did Severus know that they were Animagi during the Shrieking Shack scene? Another maybe -- After Peter defected to the DEs, it's safe to assume that what Peter knew, Voldemort knew. How many others Voldemort told is currently unknowable.

Did Severus know that Peter was there in the Shrieking Shack? No, probably not.

Did Severus believe that Peter was really dead? Maybe--If he didn't know that James, Sirius, and Peter were Animagi, then probably, yes. It really depends on how much of the Potter eradication plan Severus was in on. Was the destruction in the middle of the Muggle street planned by Voldemort or was Peter just winging it?

Severus, being as intelligent as he is, and having a decent amount of common sense, could have found enough clues along the way to have figured out quite a lot. He may not have had definitive proof but enough to know in his "guts".

Y'all take care!

*michelle the librarian**


Steve Newton - Apr 29, 2005 12:53 pm (#1646 of 2980)
Did I see a suggestion there that the threat of exposure as an unregistered animagus was used to turn Peter?


librarian314 - Apr 29, 2005 1:39 pm (#1647 of 2980)
Steve--I hadn't thought of that but, yeah, could be.

This is what I like about this forum, you post ideas and people come up with great things you hadn't thought of.

*michelle the librarian** who feels as though she's getting precariously close to her daily limit


MickeyCee3948 - Apr 29, 2005 4:29 pm (#1648 of 2980)
Edited Apr 29, 2005 5:31 pm
For all of you Rickman fans, you have got to see "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe." He plays Marvin the robot and in my opinion he steals the show. He was great. Liked him better than his Snape because the character was more likeable.

Mikie


Choices - Apr 29, 2005 5:01 pm (#1649 of 2980)
Mickey - That is the thing with Rickman - he always steals the show. When he did Robin Hood, it ticked Kevin Costner off that Rickman is who people remember from that movie. LOL

And now to Snape - Here is something interesting I read about Snape and his relation to alchemy ----- It is interesting that "vitriol", which is distilled from an oily green material, is the most important liquid in alchemy. (note the "oily" - think greasy hair) Vitriol is a very corrosive acid. (think Snape's personality) Vitriol is sometimes called the Green Dragon or the Green Lion and green in alchemy generally refers to possessing life, but not being completely mature. The Green Lion is often seen as a symbol of rage and fury (Snape again). The corrosive nature of vitriol is needed in the alchemical process of turning lead into gold. It is often thought that a character does not grow and mature without a great deal of conflict being applied to his life (think Snape's treatment of Harry). Vitriol sure fits Snape to perfection. So, for everyone who thinks Snape is being mean, remember he is just doing his job in the process to bring Harry to his full potential.....alchemically speaking. LOL


MickeyCee3948 - Apr 29, 2005 7:36 pm (#1650 of 2980)
Great theory Choices. I love it as it finally gives us a reason why Snape is like he is to Harry.

Mikie
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rambkowalczyk - Apr 30, 2005 6:48 pm (#1651 of 2980)
Edited Apr 30, 2005 7:52 pm
Michelle, I think your idea that Severus had something to do with recruiting Peter is interesting, but I don't think he did it deliberately. I do not think it was Severus that said to Voldemort that recruiting Peter would be an effective way to gain information as to what the Order was doing. He did as you say tell Voldemort everything he knew about MWPP, that Remus was a werewolf, that James had an Invisibility Cloak etc. However I think it was Voldemort who formed the idea that Peter could be easily recruited because Voldemort saw that Peter liked to be with stronger people who could protect him. Voldemort used the information Snape gave him but did not tell Snape how he used it.

If Snape knew how Voldemort used this information, or if Snape deliberately told Voldemort how to hurt James (that is by recruiting Peter), he would have told Dumbledore this when he changed sides. But I do not believe that Snape knew that Peter was working for Voldemort. Likewise Snape did not know that the other three were unregistered Animagi. He would have told Dumbledore and in the third book both Dumbledore and Snape would have been on the lookout for a stray dog. Besides Dumbledore admits at the end he didn't know Sirius was an Animagi.

Also I see Snape telling James not to use Sirius as irony. Snape had two reasons for distrusting Sirius. One is that Sirius tried to kill him by means of Remus. The second is that Snape would have assumed that Sirius was a true Black and like Regulus and Bella and probably Narcissa, was a Death Eater. It turns out Snape was right but not for the reasons he thought.

Choices, Is Vitriol in the Potter Universe or is this extra knowledge? Regardless it is fascinating.


Choices - May 1, 2005 7:57 am (#1652 of 2980)
It is from alchemy and JKR has based a lot of things in her story on alchemy. Like Albus (white), Hagrid (red) and Sirius (black) are based on alchemical processes. It is interesting to note that the Hungarian translation of Rita Skeeter's name means Rita Vitrol.....is that an indication that she is acidic? (remember her "acid green quill?)


Solitaire - May 1, 2005 12:54 pm (#1653 of 2980)
Choices, I think you ought to place this post on the alchemy thread, too. I bet they would be interested in it!

Solitaire


Choices - May 1, 2005 1:25 pm (#1654 of 2980)
Solitaire - I have no doubt that they already know all of that. I just put it here (because it was about Snape) for those who don't read the alchemy thread.


Ponine - May 1, 2005 5:27 pm (#1655 of 2980)
Hey! I am delving into all available Snape material, and right now I am studying the Lexicon's profile on him. I have a question, and I have complete faith that someone in here can help me Smile On Severus' profile, it says that Snape before October 1981 approached Dumbledore and offered to be a secret agent for the OP. How do we know that that is what happened? Did Jo say something to that effect, or is it in the books, proving that I must stop reading Harry in bed, or what? Help!! Smile Wishing you all happy Monday, by the way Smile


Madame Pomfrey - May 1, 2005 6:10 pm (#1656 of 2980)
Ponine I think it must be because Dumbledore said that Snape switched sides before the fall of Voldemort which would make that before Oct 31.1981 and I believe he told Harry that he turned spy in OoP or something like that.I dont know off hand what the exact wording is.


Ponine - May 1, 2005 6:15 pm (#1657 of 2980)
So, if I understand you correctly, we don't really know whether Snape approached Dumbledore or if Dubmledore approached him, or the circumstances around Snape's switch? Thank you for your help, Madame Pomfrey Smile Looks like I have to read some parts over again... Smile


Madame Pomfrey - May 2, 2005 7:57 am (#1658 of 2980)
Edited May 2, 2005 9:10 am
Ponine,I'm sorry I couldn't provide exact quotes.I have been looking and have not came across it yet.I'll keep trying.I dont remember it mentioning who approached who though.

*edit* I found what I was looking for in GoF Pensieve chapter,Dumbledore says"Severus Snape was indead a Death Eater.However,he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us ,at great personal risk." Thats interesting.He rejoined?


Ponine - May 2, 2005 2:49 pm (#1659 of 2980)
Madame Pomfrey - This is what I find interesting - First, I cannot figure out how the Lexicon has come to learn/believe that Severus approached Dumbledore about offering to be a spy, the whole situation seems very vague to me, not to mention the 'rejoined' phrase... I would be thrilled if someone has picked up on more than me about this!

What we know is that Severus' is hired as a Potions Master at the age of 21-22, which certainly says something; either about his skills, or how crucial it is for him to be at Hogwarts for one reason or another... So, after finishing up at school, Snape found the time to be on DD's side, join the DEs and THEN return to DD and be hired as a Potions Master all by the age of 22. He is an efficient man indeed (and I can certainly see how anyone would hesitate to stick a twenty-something old Snape in a DADA classroom full of children...).

I am assuming that: Dumbledore is Dumbledore and Snape is Snape. Dumbledore is on the good side and in his firm opinion, so is Snape. That being said, I think that the only way in which Dumbledore can be so confident in Severus' change of heart so to speak, is through some sort of traumatic experience that DD either witnessed or took part in. I am thinking that Severus perhaps lost a young wife (remember, Jo has stated that there is a reason for the glaring lack of spouses of professors..) or his mother to LV, and wants not only out, but revenge. Another alternative would be that Severus risked his own life to save somebody else... I have always hesitated to believe that Snape would risk his own neck for James and Lily, because of his incredible resentment and bitterness towards both Harry and James. However, the more I think about it, I do see him as a man of extreme honor (in his own weird way), and I can see him risking his life to repay his lifedebt to James by trying to prevent their deaths. And I can completely see how, to Snape, Harry's face is nothing but a giant sign that reads 'You failed, and killed my parents by default'. No wonder Snape can't stand to be around him.... And by digging around, I realized once again how other people may have discussed this time and time again, but these thoughts are sort of new to me!! And really interesting, and I hope that someone else will share their thoughts... Anyways, sorry for rambling.. Smile Oh! PS - I was reviewing all the quotes over at Madame Scoop, and one thing struck me - JKR's quotes about Snape has become gradually and consistently milder and filled with humor.. I wonder what this may indicate?


Gina R Snape - May 2, 2005 8:29 pm (#1660 of 2980)
Ponine, you are correct in saying this has been discussed many times before. And yes, it is endlessly interesting!!!!

DD testifies that Snape put himself in great personal danger and returned to the side of good. By this, I think DD means that all children are inherently capable of good, that Snape joined the DEs, and then left them. I don't think he means that Snape was an Order member, defected, and rejoined.

If you have the time, please do a search on my theory regarding Snape and the prophesy. It touches on or directly discusses many of the things you just listed.

I can only imagine the harshness Snape employed on older students of Hogwarts when he started teaching. They would have not only remembered Snape as a student, but quite possibly witnessed his humiliation in the scene was witnessed in OOTP with the Marauders.


Puck - May 3, 2005 5:05 am (#1661 of 2980)
Actually, Ponine the idea that Snape thinks about how he failed to save James when he sees Harry is new to me. It is a very interesting thought. And, although he is not nice to Harry, he deos protect him from physical harm. That could explain alot.


Snuffles - May 3, 2005 5:24 am (#1662 of 2980)
I want to see the good in Snape and believe he is truly on the side of good, but there is just something stopping me. I think Snape only protects Harry because he knows Harry is the only one who can ultimately defeat LV, and when LV has gone then Snape will also be free. I think he is at Hogwarts for his own protection and is just looking out for number 1. (Sorry Gina).

The guy enjoys being nasty to the students a bit too much for my liking.


Puck - May 3, 2005 6:17 am (#1663 of 2980)
Snape learned early on that he has to look out for himself, since he couldn't rely on anyone else to do it for him. That kind of thing is hard to unlearn. Besides, I don't think he takes care of himself to the exclusion of others. He would put himself on the line if he thought it would safe innocent lives.


Gina R Snape - May 3, 2005 7:03 am (#1664 of 2980)
Yes, Puck. I think if Snape were exclusively out for himself, he'd haul off to South America or some other wizarding community far from the clutches of Lord Voldemort. Or move into muggle society and use magic to 'win' all the scratch-off games and never have to work (a current fantasy of my own).


HungarianHorntail11 - May 3, 2005 8:00 am (#1665 of 2980)
Snuffles: "I want to see the good in Snape and believe he is truly on the side of good, but there is just something stopping me. "

I feel the same way. I keep remembering what I read from an interview with JKR a while ago and she based this character on a very nasty teacher she once had who obviously left a very bad impression on her. Unless she's let go of this distaste for the teacher, I can't really see her redeeming him, as much as many of us would like to see it.


Weeny Owl - May 3, 2005 9:10 am (#1666 of 2980)
Being a very nasty teacher and being completely evil aren't the same.

I had a boss once who was just as nasty as Snape, if not more so, in that he didn't just yell and humiliate people, but used every swear word possible while he was doing it. He was a vile, loathsome, horrid person to be around, but as bad as he was, I couldn't imagine him actually killing anyone or becoming a Death Eater type.

Snape doesn't need to be redeemed from his personality. He left the Death Eaters to join Dumbledore's alliance, and that in and of itself is redemption for whatever he may have done.

His personality is quite different from his acts. He uses his tongue to inflict little barbs, but he doesn't actually hurt anyone physically... not even Harry.

I think he truly detests most of the students he's stuck with, but disliking being around dunderheads and actively trying to inflict physical injuries or even death on them is something else entirely.

I still say that he may not be a nice guy but he is a good guy.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 3, 2005 9:33 am (#1667 of 2980)
Edited May 3, 2005 10:47 am
I don't remember where I wrote completely evil. I don't think he's a good person.

Granted, he is in the Order and DD trusts him (not likes, trusts). The members of the Order seem to know where he stands, but that doesn't make him a good person. He's a wretch finally doing the right thing. For all we know, he helped Big V on his way to immortality with one of his "stopper in death potions".

WO: "I had a boss once who was just as nasty as Snape, if not more so, in that he didn't just yell and humiliate people, but used every swear word possible while he was doing it. He was a vile, loathsome, horrid person to be around, but as bad as he was, I couldn't imagine him actually killing anyone or becoming a Death Eater type."

But. . .Snape was a DE.

My reference to redemption was regarding his personality. I don't think we're going to get some ending like, 'Oh, so that's why he's such a dark character. I don't blame him' or, 'he started out nasty, but he's nice now'.

HH11


Weeny Owl - May 3, 2005 10:09 am (#1668 of 2980)
I know you didn't say completely evil, but I just feel there's a huge difference between having an unpleasant personality and having evil intent.

Yes, Snape did become a Death Eater, but when I said "Death Eater type," I meant more than just the Dark Mark or the title. I see Snape as more of a Regulus type... getting in too far and not realizing what being a true Death Eater means. I can see Snape finally realizing just what the Death Eaters are and not wanting to be one, and that would be when he went to Dumbledore to rejoin the good guys.

I think something traumatic happened that showed him just how far the Death Eaters would go, and when that happened he chose a different path because he truly is a good person.


Gina R Snape - May 3, 2005 10:47 am (#1669 of 2980)
I agree, Weeny. And I hope we get to find out what it was...soon!


Solitaire - May 3, 2005 10:55 am (#1670 of 2980)
Edited May 3, 2005 11:55 am
Just because Snape is probably not a DE does not necessarily make him a "good person" or a "good guy." Snape enjoys bullying children and inflicting emotional pain on people--Harry more than others--and that does not connote a "good person" to my understanding.

Solitaire


Lina - May 3, 2005 12:15 pm (#1671 of 2980)
Weeny Owl, your story about your boss just reminded me of two other people. Both of them would move the mountains for you if you are in need. You don't have to be their good friend to get their help and you know you can rely on them if you have a problem. But if you don't have a problem, they will do anything to make your life miserable and to get you to the situation to have a problem. And they really do believe that everything they do is for your own good. And I know them both well, I know they are good in their harts, they just feel insecure and are not aware of the damage they do. And that is how I see Snape.

And Gina, I totally agree with you when you say that if Snape would care just for himself, he wouldn't be teaching. He does it because DD wants him to.


Snuffles - May 3, 2005 12:53 pm (#1672 of 2980)
I can't see Snape helping anyone unless it benefits himself.

Neville needs his help in potions but instead of helping, he belittles him and humiliates him in front of the rest of the class. He knocks Harry's potion to the floor on purpose and tells him thats another zero mark he has got.

Snape is perfectly aware of the damage he is doing but he enjoys it. Power over people. He was humiliated when he was at school, made to look a fool and instead of getting over it and moving on, he is getting his own back on those powerless to stop him.


Weeny Owl - May 3, 2005 7:26 pm (#1673 of 2980)
Just because Snape is probably not a DE does not necessarily make him a "good person" or a "good guy." Snape enjoys bullying children and inflicting emotional pain on people--Harry more than others--and that does not connote a "good person" to my understanding.

Okay, instead of saying he's a good guy, let's say he really is a horribly nasty person who is on the side of the good guys and genuinely wants to see Voldemort and the Death Eaters defeated.

My feelings for Snape changed after OotP. I compared him and his actions to Umbridge and her actions. Umbridge is not a good guy and isn't on the side of the good guys.

Snape may enjoy having power over people, but he has his limits. No one has ever been physically injured by him, the Pensieve scene notwithstanding. Snape gets his digs in, and I believe he truly hates Harry for whatever reasons, but even with that he still goes only so far.

He may become totally exasperated with Neville and poison Trevor, but being a potions teacher, he was sure to have an antidote. He has never injured Neville.

He may be annoyed with Ron, not to mention various and sundry other Weasleys, but when has he actually done anything to hurt them?

He may call Hermione an insufferable know-it-all, and he may say he sees no difference in the size of her teeth, but he's never done anything to harm her.

It's a matter of degrees, I suppose, but compare him to Umbridge and her quill. When has a detention with Snape caused scars? When has Snape agreed that students should be whipped? When has Snape almost cast the Cruciatus Curse because a student won't answer a question?

Snape isn't going to be named teacher of the year. He won't ask his students to tea. He won't smile at them, pat their heads, and give them hugs. He will do what is necessary to save them, though, and that's why he is a good guy and not a bad guy, in the strictest sense of the term.


Solitaire - May 3, 2005 9:34 pm (#1674 of 2980)
We can agree to disagree, Weeny. He just does not meet my criteria for good. I can't help it. I think he is hateful.


Weeny Owl - May 4, 2005 12:21 am (#1675 of 2980)
Yes, he is hateful, Solitaire, but I think we're not in sync with the definition of "good."

Two definitions: (a) something conforming to the moral order of the universe and (b) praiseworthy character

I think Snape does conform to the moral order of the universe. Whether or not he always has or has only since he joined Dumbledore's group is moot. I do believe that he does now.

A praiseworthy character? That isn't my definition of him, no.

I'm not using "good" to describe his personality, but rather his belief system in a given situation... Dumbledore's view of the Wizarding World or Voldemort's view.

When I say he's a good guy, I mean that he is on Dumbledore's side, won't betray the Order, and is honestly working to eliminate Voldemort.

He isn't nice, he isn't fluffy, he isn't my idea of a best bud, but if I wanted someone to watch my back, I'd pick him.


frogface - May 4, 2005 2:28 am (#1676 of 2980)
Edited May 4, 2005 3:30 am
I think the problem in this discussion lies in catagorizing into 'good' and 'bad'. With some things it just isn't impossible to to label, and good and bad are very simple sort of catagories to use. I mean after all, i'm sure Voldemort doesn't think what he is doing is evil does he? I'm sure he doesn't think "Ooooooh what EVIL scheme shall I set into motion today?!". In fact in his mind he probably thinks that what he is doing is noble, and good, and that people like Dumbledore and Harry are evil. So I don't think we can get anywhere by trying to stick Snape in either the good or bad camp, life just isn't that simple. P.S Sorry Weeny Owl, I didn't really read your post fully, but you sorta said that I'm trying to say really, which is that alot of it simply comes down to how different points of view concerning the idea of good and bad can vary.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 4, 2005 4:33 am (#1677 of 2980)
What if Snape is a HW teacher because he saw the damage he inflicted in helping Big V and decided to run for it? DD says he'll take him in (protect him) but he must serve on the Order and prove himself trustworthy. Snape does this and part of his protection is that he remains in Hogwarts. He is good enough at potions to teach it and hence, has found a niche in his refuge.

Now let's talk about the night Umbridge held the children in her office and Harry told Snape about Snuffles. If Snape chose not to do anything about it "Gee, I just didn't understand what Harry meant." How do you think that would go down with Dumbledore?

This is all speculation, both on your part, Weeny, probably because you have a good heart and want to see the good in everyone, and on my part based on what JKR actually said. Now, if she's had a change of heart regarding the teacher she despised, maybe there will be hope for Snape. But let's call a spade a spade, she certainly didn't base Snape's character on a wonderful father figure.


Solitaire - May 4, 2005 8:37 am (#1678 of 2980)
Edited May 4, 2005 9:37 am
You are correct that good and bad are certainly subjective terms--probably a lot like moral and immoral.

Do I think Snape wants Voldemort defeated? Probably so, although I have not ruled out the possibility that we may all be deceived in his loyalties. I also believe--despite his standings on the "Voldemort Issue"--that he hates Harry sufficiently to want him to suffer and suffer deeply. I believe he enjoys inflicting mental and emotional pain on Harry, and I think he would like to find an acceptable way to inflict physical pain on him, as well.

Would I want Snape to cover my back? Let's just say he would be my LAST choice. I would rather have a friend who has a personal and emotional stake in my continued well-being. Even though I consider Snape a more talented Wizard than most others in the HP world, I would feel a lot more secure with Remus or Mad-Eye covering my back.

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - May 4, 2005 9:25 am (#1679 of 2980)
But let's call a spade a spade, she certainly didn't base Snape's character on a wonderful father figure.

That's my whole point, though. It isn't a matter of extremes where Snape has to be practially a serial killer as opposed to a father figure. He can still have a nasty personality yet want the same conclusion that Dumbledore wants.

Anything we discuss as to Snape's motives to go back to Dumbledore's side is speculation since we haven't been told why he went back. We've known Snape for five years, but there is still a great deal of mystery surrounding him.

I still compare him to Umbridge, and he can't hold a candle to her for plain visciousness, and until he does something close to what she's done, I'll still think of him as being on the right side.

I would rather have a friend who has a personal and emotional stake in my continued well-being.

So would I, Solitaire.


EbonyRebel - May 4, 2005 11:47 am (#1680 of 2980)
"I would rather have a friend who has a personal and emotional stake in my continued well-being" - it depends on the friend! you must make sure they are not misguided (look at James' choice of Sirius).

With regard to Snape - Weeny, I agree only to a certain extent with what you are saying - it is true that Snape has never caused physical harm to Neville, but we all know that it is not the physical wounds that hurt most, but the emotional ones. No-one knows this better than Snape. He knows all too well what it feels like to be humiliated in front of your peers. He knows that emotional injuries take a very long time to (or even never) heal. He realises, then, the full impact of his actions. The fact that he has never hurt Neville physically is no point in his favour, in my opinion.

A quick theory - what if Snape never actually did go over to the dark side? What if the plan all along was to infiltrate enemy ranks? This quick thought was just due to me thinking about Occlumency - the DLord was probably always a good Legilimens, so wouldn't he have noticed that Snape turned into an Occlumens on his return to power? It seems to me that in order to study one discipline, one needs to be familiar with the other. Surely then Voldemort would have noticed the change. Or was Snape always an Occlumens? And if he was, Why? Also (and lastly, I promise) did Dumbledore teach Snape occlumency? and if he did, perhaps he saw some things that influenced him to believe Snape's story? Perhaps the reason DD trusts Snape is not in fact solely trust on DD's part. After all, the Occlumens doesn't lie - they only hide the whole truth.


Solitaire - May 4, 2005 12:20 pm (#1681 of 2980)
Peter was the one who betrayed the Potters. Yes, Sirius made the suggestion that he be used instead, but he did not do it with malicious intent. He believed with his whole heart that Peter was a true and loyal friend and a safer choice than himself. I do not believe he can be faulted for Peter's shortcomings. (And I'd still have a harder time trusting Snape. Of course, I try not to get into a place where I need to trust people too often.)

In this case I suppose I agree with Proverbs 27:6-- "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy."

Solitaire


Puck - May 4, 2005 12:29 pm (#1682 of 2980)
Whether we think of him as "good" or not, I think we can have faith that Snape will not fail us. DD has said he can be trusted, and DD speaks for JKR. I don't think it was a coincidence the DD wasn't involved in the conversation Harry overheard in PoA when he learned "Sirus" betrayed his parents. JKR wants us to be able to rely on what he says, and didn't want to tarnish that but having him part of a misinformed conversation. To this point, I think thta DD has been believable, and I will continue when he says Snape is trustworthy.


Ponine - May 4, 2005 1:29 pm (#1683 of 2980)
As many have pointed out, value-based judgements such as good, bad, moral and immoral are tricky and subjective. As far as Snape covering my back is concerned, I personally would prefer him to for instance Sirius in a crisis, who, well-intentioned as he might have been, also in my opinion was hot-headed and overly self-confident. I agree with Puck in that Snape will not fail us. He is not a pleasant person, and he is most definitely cruel to the children, as I will be the first to admit. In this respect, he follows an all too common pattern where kids who have been abused as children, and who theoretically should know how it feels and therefore never put anyone else through it, end up as abusive adults themselves. I furthermore believe that his apparent lack of hygiene may be caused by a wish to keep others at a safe distance - he is not interested in getting close to or appealing to anyone. In fact, he may perceive any desire to clean up as a sign of weakness, a sign of wanting to be liked - heaven forbid. I have come to believe that his nastiness towards the students stems from his experiences and how they have shaped him, rather than from merely a sadistic streak. And to me, there is a big difference. In the scenario, I see potential for development, for making better choices. In the second one - disarming is the only way to go.

And Ebony - I too have been wondering if he never went over to the Dark Side at all, or simply functioned as a superb spy.

Also, I think it is an excellent point that Weeny brings up; Is not a matter of either or. He can be a sadistic, cruel, vicious, crucio-performing lunatic without being on LV's side...

Gina - I have tried, but I coul not find your take on the prophecy anywhere - do you know where I should look? After chatting I was told that we share the same view on him 'hooking up' - and indeed we do - loved the fic!


Weeny Owl - May 4, 2005 8:28 pm (#1684 of 2980)
I agree only to a certain extent with what you are saying - it is true that Snape has never caused physical harm to Neville, but we all know that it is not the physical wounds that hurt most, but the emotional ones.

I'm not disagreeing with that at all, but I'm not talking about Snape's relationships with people, rather whether or not he is actually working for Dumbledore, and in that respect, is he a good guy? I think he is. I think he is loyal to Dumbledore and the Order, regardless of his lack of interpersonal skills.


Delightful Task! - May 5, 2005 1:16 am (#1685 of 2980)
Well, I'm surprised you would trust Snape rather than Sirius! You're forgetting "the shrieking shack" ! What would have happened if the kids had trusted Snape rather than Sirius?!


Ponine - May 5, 2005 3:09 am (#1686 of 2980)
Delightful task - No, I was actually thinking about that incident, as well as Snape's worst memory, as I was writing, knowing full well that Severus lost it. But, it seems as though these two incidents are directly linked to Snape's achille's heels (left and right heel, I suppose) and that is why he was so livid. Sirius was reckless and thoughtless. He practically lured Severus into the shrieking shack, thus not only jeopardizing Severus' life, as well as James', but also 'outed' Remus, whether he wanted to or not. Througout OP, I think both Molly and Hermione is right; he does try to live through Harry, and he again compromises people's safety by going to the station as a dog, knowing full well that all DEs may be aware of his being a dog. To me, he was always extremely self-centered and thoughtless, and easily bored. Severus is on 'constant vigilance', slightly paranoid and highly skilled. Additionally, I think he is strongly bound to Dumbledore by some sort of an honor code/desire to prove himself competent, which also adds to his effectiveness at a back coverer.


rambkowalczyk - May 5, 2005 3:41 am (#1687 of 2980)
I am beginning to wonder if Snape's hatred of Harry isn't only due to Snape's hatred of James.

As a result of the failed AK curse Harry seems to have a little bit of Voldemort in him. Dumbledore has said this at least once. Maybe what Snape instinctively hates isn't Harry but that part of Voldemort that is within him. This is complicated by the fact that Harry is the spitting image of his father. Maybe before he rejoined Dumbledore, Voldemort was as abusive to him as James was. So when he looks at Harry he sees James and Voldemort simultaneously.


Solitaire - May 5, 2005 8:49 am (#1688 of 2980)
I think Snape's hatred of Harry is due solely to his hatred of James. That is why I do not trust Snape. He is a slave to his hatreds and grudges; he nurtures and feeds them and persists in punishing Harry for "the sins of the father," so to speak.

It is important that we be informed by the past in order to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. However, anyone so slavishly controlled by the hatreds of his past is not mature and rational where these issues are concerned. Even though Snape may have wanted to help Harry with his Occlumency, for example, we see his past creating a problem for him that ultimately made it impossible.

Solitaire


Lina - May 5, 2005 12:45 pm (#1689 of 2980)
Ponine: He is not a pleasant person, and he is most definitely cruel to the children, as I will be the first to admit. In this respect, he follows an all too common pattern where kids who have been abused as children, and who theoretically should know how it feels and therefore never put anyone else through it, end up as abusive adults themselves. I furthermore believe that his apparent lack of hygiene may be caused by a wish to keep others at a safe distance - he is not interested in getting close to or appealing to anyone. In fact, he may perceive any desire to clean up as a sign of weakness, a sign of wanting to be liked - heaven forbid. I have come to believe that his nastiness towards the students stems from his experiences and how they have shaped him, rather than from merely a sadistic streak. And to me, there is a big difference. In the scenario, I see potential for development, for making better choices. In the second one - disarming is the only way to go.

Ponine, I just had to post it again, because you have put it down so wonderfully. Are you a psychologist or a psychiatrist? I just bolded some words that I find really significant and I totally agree with you.

I see Snape as a victim and I wouldn't be able to hate a victim. Never mind if the person, whose victim he is, is not around any more.

EbonyRebel: it is true that Snape has never caused physical harm to Neville, but we all know that it is not the physical wounds that hurt most, but the emotional ones. No-one knows this better than Snape.(...) He knows that emotional injuries take a very long time to (or even never) heal. Exactly for this reason he doesn't realize, then, the full impact of his actions.

Only the really strong person (like DD) is able to admit their weakness. Have you never met a boss who really doesn't know his job and becomes rude to the co-workers thinking that that way they would not discover his/her ignorance? And have you never met a real expert who has no problem in admitting that he/she doesn't know something? Well, Snape is not an ignorant person, but he has big problems with self confidence and he plays rude just to hide how insecure he feels. If he wouldn't act with the students the same way that somebody else acted with him and wounded him, he would admit that he has wounds and, in his eyes it would mean that he is weak. And this is something he will never admit. So "he isn't wounding the students because such behavior never wounded him".

Deligfhtful Task! it is not the same thing having somebody covering your back or having him in front of you! It is known what covering your back means, and I don't see anything untrustworthy about Snape in that matter. He covers your back even if you don't ask him to. Well, when he is in front of you, he becomes dangerous and ready to fight against you. It just means that he is not a coward and deserves respect.

On your question, EbonyRebel, when did Snape learn Occlumency, I can just say that I think he learned it before he came to Hogwarts. He needed it to protect himself from whoever he was living with.


Solitaire - May 5, 2005 9:27 pm (#1690 of 2980)
Edited May 5, 2005 10:28 pm
I see Snape as a victim and I wouldn't be able to hate a victim

Victim or not, everyone has to grow up and accept responsibility for his or her actions. Snape has agreed to fill a position of authority over students. People who are in such positions do not have the luxury of indulging in childish resentments and behavior against students.

The fact that Snape manages to treat Draco and other students in a more appropriate way tells me that he is more than capable of controlling his emotions--when he feels it is warranted. I believe Snape uses those old grudges and hatreds as an excuse to torment Harry. He makes no real effort to treat Harry as a teacher should treat a student.

Solitaire


Ydnam96 - May 5, 2005 9:30 pm (#1691 of 2980)
Solitaire I agree as well. Vicitm or not (and I do agree that Snape probably had a very traumatic childhood which has left him with some "baggage")he now has the choice to let those things go or to hang on to them. He has chosen so far to hold tightly to them.


Solitaire - May 5, 2005 9:31 pm (#1692 of 2980)
Exactly, Mandy ... and that means he is choosing to continue being a victim.


Ydnam96 - May 5, 2005 9:33 pm (#1693 of 2980)
Yes! Which I must admit is easy to do. It is a lot harder to change your life from victim to survivor. It takes a lot, some people decide it's not worth it. To a point it feels good to wallow in self pity, anger, resentment, and such. It makes one feel justified in their bitterness. I think that's where Snape is.


Lina - May 5, 2005 10:48 pm (#1694 of 2980)
Yes, that's exactly the truth. He chooses to be a victim because it is much easier. And by attacking him, you help him to close himself more in his shell and be more nasty. If he felt accepted, he would loose the reason to fight with time. Well, obviously, I'm not talking about Snape here. None of us can attack him or make him feel accepted (except Gina). But I'm talking about all the "Snapes" in the real life who can be helped to grow up, or helped to keep their bitterness.


Delightful Task! - May 6, 2005 5:01 am (#1695 of 2980)
Ok, Snape was a victim... when he was a kid! He is an adult now. And I'm sure he wouldn't plead as a victim!

He doesn't choose to be a victim! He chooses to abuse others! Snape is this person who punishes kids just because he doesn't like them, or because he thinks they are "inferior", by insulting them, by ill-treating them psychologically. And he chooses his victims very carefully.

On the other hand, as regards his relations with other adults, he seems to be far more careful. (his grown up "victims" are people who cannot really defend themselves. I'm thinking of Lupin here)

So on the whole, his victims are people who cannot complain because they would not be trusted (the first answer you give to a kid who complains about a teacher is "you must be exaggerating!) and also because those people he chooses are too proud to complain anyway!

So basically, if we keep to that image of Snape, he is a deeply horrible person!

BUT

we all have noticed that DD trusts Snape, and that all along the series, he is not (or doesn't seem to be) the evil character Harry thinks he is. What's more, he has a justification for ill-treating Harry: as he is a spy for DD and is supposed to be a follower of Voldemort, he has to be kind to Draco and be horrible to Harry, just to cover himself up. That's what any member of the Order would tell Harry if he complained about anything. Moreover, we can see that his way of dealing with students is after all very "kind", if we compare with Umbridge.

Last but not least, in that crucial scene with the pensieve, we discover another side of Snape: the kid abused by relatives (?) and bullied by classmates.

All this considered, we readers are lead to feel sympathy for Snape, and we find justifications for his behaviour too.

But some points, according to me, remain unsettling: Why does he keep calling Voldemort the dark lord, even when he is alone with Harry. Can we say that ill-treating Harry is only a way for him to cover himself up when he seems to take so much pleasure in it, and when he is sadistic even when Harry is alone with him? How come each time Harry had an occlumency lesson with him, his mind seemed to be even more prepared for Voldemort to enter it? How come he didn't know Peter Pettigrew was a DE ? Why did he deliberately reveal Lupin is a werewolf? Why is he so completely unable to master himself in some occasions? etc etc ...

My conclusion is... Snape is no victim! Many people had very difficult childhoods and did not end up as Snapes... (Harry for one, or Lupin, even Sirius...)

He is playing a very difficult game, with the help of no one, on his own. He wants to prove everyone he is the good, perfect Snape that no one understands.

Conclusion:

Snape is a wonderful fictional character, because he's so complex. And I hope in the end he will turn out to be on the side of good, because the lesson would be that all horrible persons are not evil, and that even horrible persons can change... which would be comforting, since we all know that all nice and warm people are not good!


EbonyRebel - May 6, 2005 5:12 am (#1696 of 2980)
Edited May 6, 2005 6:18 am
Hmm, it seems to come back to the principles that DD was talking about after Cedric's death - that is, choosing between what's right and what's easy. And I must say, choosing what's easy over what's right rather goes against Snape's character. He seems to have chosen a very difficult path - going back to the good side (if indeed, he ever left it in the first place). Also, he has to teach in his old school - a place full of bad memories for him. That takes strength. It's not easy. I had a bad time in school and four years later I've never even gone in the gates after the day I left. For these reasons, then, I emphatically do not think that Snape is choosing to be a victim because it's easy. In fact, I think being a victim is the very thing he's trying to overcome. He hates weakness. He would hate to be pitied. And so the last thing he would want to be in other people's eyes is a victim. He commands respect at all times. All the order members show him this respect, except for the late Sirius Black. I think that in looking for this respect he abuses his authority. He wants to make sure (how do you do italics??) that his pupils respect him.

I think that one of Snape's main faults is not realising what constitutes a weakness. Anyone could tell him (especially you, Solitaire!) that bullying defenseless children is a major flaw, and that his abuse of power is actually showing a weakness in his character. For this reason he may act like a victim (in the pschological sense of the word) without realising it.

PS. I think we posted at the same time, Delightful task! *waves* apologies if I've repeated anything you said!

By the way, I've a possible answer to your question DT, about why Snape continued to call V the Dark Lord, even when alone with Harry. the key here is - he was alone with Harry (I really need those italics!). We know that DD didn't teach Harry because he knew that Voldy was watching through Harry. If VM could see things through Harry then, it is completely possible that should he have seen Snape referring to VM as anything other than the Dark Lord, he would have begun to suspect Snape.....


Delightful Task! - May 6, 2005 5:28 am (#1697 of 2980)
Ok, but don't you think that if he saw Snape teaching occlumency to Harry, he would have begun to suspect him too? I thought of what you said to, but I'm not convinced!

(for the italics, read the quick-edit formatting link!!!)


EbonyRebel - May 6, 2005 5:35 am (#1698 of 2980)
Fair enough, but I think that Harry shouting at him "you're not telling me how!" would eradicate VM's fears about Snape's loyalty. Furthermore I'm sure that Snape would let VM know that it was DD's order for Snape to teach harry occlumency. I think that DD knew that Snape can play the double game better than anyone, and knew therefore that Snape has the ability to work for the "light" side while still convincing the dark side that he's on their, um, side.


Delightful Task! - May 6, 2005 6:14 am (#1699 of 2980)
That sounds convincing! When I really like Snape, I also consider that he's playing his part so carefully that he never drops his guard. All things considered, we can understand that he doesn't want a kid to know too much about who he really is, and the way he defends Neville in Umbridge's office reveals that quite precisely.

And yet...

'Do not say the Dark Lord's name!'spat Snape There was a nasty silence (...) 'Professor Dumbledore says his name,' said Harry quietly. 'Dumbledore is an extremely powerful wizard,' Snape muttered. 'while he may feel secure enough to use the name... the rest of us...' He rubbed his lest forearm apparently unconsciously, on the spot where Harry knew the Dark Mark was burnt into his skin.

OotP p 470 (Bloomsbury)

I've just rediscovered this passage precisely. I LOVE the apparently ! Jo could have ommitted it, we wouldn't have noticed, but it's so much fun with it!! Why would Snape make as if his rubbing his arm was uncounscious!? Is it addressed to Harry or to Voldemort? And what if it was really uncounscious!?

In this context, and whether it is really uncounscious or not, us can only mean the DEs, don't you think so?

Why can't DEs pronounce Voldemort's name then? What is the consequence? (Has this question been discussed somewhere?!!) So many questions!! aaargh!


Solitaire - May 6, 2005 6:29 am (#1700 of 2980)
we readers are lead to feel sympathy for Snape, and we find justifications for his behaviour too

This is rather a generalization. I certainly have not been led to feel any sympathy for Snape up to this point. In fact, quite the opposite is true. I feel Rowling has painted a singularly UNsympathetic character. I might feel sympathy for him if I saw any sign of a struggle within him to overcome his unreasonable and inappropriate hatred of Harry ... but I don't. What's more, I see absolutely NO justification whatsoever for his behavior. I can see a possible explanation--but certainly NO justification.

I see Snape continuing to behave as if he thinks he is above the basic courtesies that one would hope should prevail between people. You are quite correct when you say that Snape chooses his "victims" carefully ... and that is the sign of an abuser. I don't care whether he was a victim or not. He is now an abuser. Harry has been a victim of abuse for most of his early life, yet we see that he is choosing (thus far, at least) NOT to become an abuser.

I suppose I am tired of seeing abusive behavior excused and justified based on the victim's past experiences. This might hold water when one is talking about a child or even a teen who is terribly disturbed. By the time one is an adult, however, the time has come to own one's behavior and govern it appropriately.

I think it's time for me to take a "Snape break" for a while, as I've had to do in the past ... so this will be my last post for a few days, at least. (I'll be back, however!) I need to calm down and wait for a change of issue. Even as a teacher of occasionally rude, hormonal, and maddeningly ill-behaved seventh graders--especially this week--I find Snape's behavior horrifying. However, I am far more disturbed by the attempts to excuse and justify his abuse of his students.

Solitaire
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Post  Mona on Thu May 26, 2011 6:38 am

Delightful Task! - May 6, 2005 6:48 am (#1701 of 2980)
Whaoo Solitaire! When I said "lead to feel sympathy", I didn't think that was a good thing! And I actually completely agree with you!

I think JKR wants to have us unsettled about Snape, she wants to show that her characters are not all black or white, just as in real life... And she proves it's very difficult to "judge" others. She wants us to change our minds all the time about Snape so as to maintain suspense. She's a good writer! My theory is that Snape is going to surprise us again in books six and seven! Anyway,I can't see the point of seeing Snape as less bad than JKR shows him. The fact he is so horrible is definitely what makes him interesting according to me! (as a fictional character of course!)


Ponine - May 6, 2005 7:37 am (#1702 of 2980)
Lina - *blushing furiously* Thank you so much! I have a social work background (child protection).

As far as Snape goes, to me, there are an important distinction between justification and possible explanation. I do not see Snape's (potentially) abusive history as an excuse for him to treat other people cruelly. However, I think it may help explain WHY he does it. Sadly, I am not one of those people who think that his actions towards the students can be said to be part of a plan to make them stronger or smarter or better equipped to handle what lies ahead.

I think it is important - in most, if not all, aspects of life, to be able to sort and separate. In this case, I have decided that it makes more sense for me to keep Snape being vicious to students and Snape being/not being a death eater separate in the sense that the two while perhaps being correlated, are not dependent on each other.

What struck me as I was contemplating recent discussion on this thread, was that Snape indeed appears to have made some very difficult choices. I am thinking that someone like Arthur, with young children, a wife and joy and happiness all around, fighting on the right side is really not much of a choice (Obviously many factors come into play, and I know it is a tad more complex than that, but just hear me out...). Snape on the other hand, strikes me as a man that never has had to lose - no loving family, significant other, close friends - the things that make you happy. Thus, when faced with choosing between good and evil - or - the winning side or the evil side, as I am sure LV would present it - what incentives would Severus have to remain on the good side? What incentives would he have to join the Dark Lord - to hook up with a few people from Slytherin who gave him attention in school, practice his DA skills, and be feared, respected, powerful and admired... Whether he abuses children or not (wow - the social worker in me truly cringes at this sentence), I think it needs to be recognized that Severus has made some important, very difficult choices, that reflect the character of a man who at least very very deep down want to do good, even at personal expense. Like it has been said - he left Voldie when he was on his way up - and that to return to a school packed with bad memories and noisy kids to teach a class he never wanted.


Choices - May 6, 2005 7:53 am (#1703 of 2980)
It is indeed a tribute to JKR that a character she has created and breathed life into can inspire such a range of strong emotions. Snape is a wonderful character, even if he isn't such a wonderful person.


EbonyRebel - May 6, 2005 9:49 am (#1704 of 2980)
Some of Snape's behaviour is certainly inexcusable. However, it's interesting that Solitaire says that she cannot see "any sign of a struggle within him to overcome his unreasonable and inappropriate hatred of Harry". But we must remember, we're seeing every single Snape encounter through Harry's eyes. In addition, Snape being who he is (and therefore not likely to wear any of his emotions on his sleeve), is not going to let any of his internal struggles show (and I think that he has many internal struggles, being the complex character that he is).

By the way, sorry you feel so stressed out about this, Soli - but it's like Choices said - it certainly is inspired writing on JKR's part to create a character that gets such strong reactions from almost everyone!


Weeny Owl - May 6, 2005 10:21 am (#1705 of 2980)
Edited May 6, 2005 11:30 am
What's more, he has a justification for ill-treating Harry: as he is a spy for DD and is supposed to be a follower of Voldemort, he has to be kind to Draco and be horrible to Harry, just to cover himself up. That's what any member of the Order would tell Harry if he complained about anything.

That's a theory I've never believed. I think he's kind to Draco because he likes Draco. I think he's horrible to Harry because Harry reminds him of James. I don't believe there's anything more to it than that. Snape isn't any worse to Harry in OotP than he's been in the books before Voldemort came back. I don't think he's mean because it's a good cover for him. I think he's mean because that's him.

Why does he keep calling Voldemort the dark lord, even when he is alone with Harry.

Very few people call Voldemort by his name, but with Harry having a connection with Voldemort, it could be that Snape didn't want to risk having Voldemort invading Harry's mind at that particular time.

How come each time Harry had an occlumency lesson with him, his mind seemed to be even more prepared for Voldemort to enter it?

Even Dumbledore said that teaching Occlumency to Harry had risks, and he didn't want Voldemort to know that he saw Harry as anything other than another student. It would stand to reason that Occlumency lessons would open someone's mind regardless of who teaches it.

How come he didn't know Peter Pettigrew was a DE ?

Karkaroff explained that only Voldemort knew who all the Death Eaters were.

Why did he deliberately reveal Lupin is a werewolf?

There could be a lot of reasons. Getting back at Lupin for what happened when he was sent into the Whomping Willow by Sirius. Losing the Order of Merlin. Simple revenge for what happened at the Shrieking Shack. Even protecting the occupants of Hogwarts because having a werewolf loose on the grounds is dangerous.

As far as Snape goes, to me, there are an important distinction between justification and possible explanation. I do not see Snape's (potentially) abusive history as an excuse for him to treat other people cruelly. However, I think it may help explain WHY he does it. Sadly, I am not one of those people who think that his actions towards the students can be said to be part of a plan to make them stronger or smarter or better equipped to handle what lies ahead.

I agree with that completely.

If we took Harry out of the equation, his behavior isn't quite as horrible. He's still an unpleasant person, and I doubt if any of his students would want to be his best bud when they get out of school. Sirius said about Umbridge that the world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters, but who is worse to the students, Umbridge or Snape? I think JKR is using him to show that while Snape's personality can be horrible, he can still be actively working toward making the Wizarding World a better place. While Umbridge is all gung-ho for the Ministry, she is behaving as more of a Death Eater than the one Death Eater we know about at Hogwarts.

Also, JKR is showing that appearances can be deceptive. We have a teacher who seems to be ineffective (Quirrell), one who seems to be helpful (Barty Crouch, Jr.), and one who tries to appear sweet (Umbridge). How they appear to Harry is the opposite of what they truly are, and it could be that JKR is showing us that no matter how horrible Snape appears, he can be the opposite as well.

Take a deep breath, Solitaire, and go have a warm bath, a cup of hot chocolate, and relax. I know that helps me when discussions get too intense. (Giving Solitaire a cyber hug.)


T Brightwater - May 6, 2005 10:54 am (#1706 of 2980)
It's possible that Snape's hatred for James and Sirius (and Harry, by extension) comes out of a hate for his own father (if that is the abusive person we caught a glimpse of in his memory.) It's a lot safer and less intolerable to assume that your peers are responsible for your misery than to realize a parent did it to you. I've known a few people that I think were taking out their anger against their parents on everyone around them. (I'm not a psychologist, I'm just working from observation.)

I also think that something really horrible happened to Snape while he was with the DEs, something that perhaps Voldemort doesn't even know about.

Given all that, I still can't defend Snape's behavior. The problem with hating someone or something obsessively is that it's very easy to become the thing you hate. (Crouch Sr, for example) By not letting go, Snape is only perpetuating the cycle of abuse.

I don't think we'll ever know what Snape is really up to unless and until Jo decides to tell us.


Puck - May 6, 2005 12:47 pm (#1707 of 2980)
I don't think Sanpe likes Draco. He is partial to Slytherins, and likes that Draco has it out for Harry, but don't see how he can like that kid. I mean, Draco is to Harry as James and Sirius were to Snape. Maybe Severus won't allow himself to see this, but that means he can't really being looking carefully at Malfoy. It could also be that Snape wants to keep Lucius on his good side. He amy not be very verbal about his Lytherins, but I'm sure in his head he thinks Grabbe and Goyle are hopeless gits.


Lina - May 6, 2005 12:58 pm (#1708 of 2980)
I've been told that there is a nature in a person, like genes, and there is a character or how would you call something that is built in a person by education. Now, persons who have nice nature (like Harry) do not have to make much effort to be good or nice. Persons who have difficult nature, even with good education have to struggle to remain good. And persons with difficult nature and bad education, well they have to do a loooooooong way to satisfy the definition of the adult. Sometimes they do much greater effort to achieve some advancement that is not even notable. Of course they envy people who are loved and accepted and are not even trying to achieve that.

At the end of GoF, at the moment that he shows Fudge the dark mark, I see that effort and the struggle in Snape to do the right thing and I appreciate it. I don't feel sorry for Snape, but for all the people who have the same problem around you who condemn him so hard and you don't care for them.


Choices - May 6, 2005 4:37 pm (#1709 of 2980)
I agree Puck - I don't think Snape likes Draco much either. He more tolerates him than anything. He may pretend to be friendlier to Draco than anyone else, but I think that is due to Snape's contact with Lucius and wanting to maintain a good "front" for his (Lucius') benefit.


Lina - May 7, 2005 1:59 am (#1710 of 2980)
Edited May 7, 2005 3:01 am
I was too harsh in my last post, I realize that, and I'm surprised that there were no reactions like "Lina, you should be more cautious!" As a matter of fact, I felt so bad after posting it that I ran away from the Forum until I came to the less emotional thoughts.

It was several years ago, when I read Pinocchio to my kids before bedtime, that I found out that adults can find fairy tales much more educational than children. Adults see all the parallels between the fairy tales and the real life while children see just the story, they don't see the real life in a fairy tale. (That's why I started to read as many books for children as I can, recently.) And a fairy tale is supposed to be the image of the real life. And I think that JKR has succeeded in doing it, she has put so many real persons in her fairy tale.

So is Snape. He might be a sort of extreme, but I met several Snapes in my life. And I can't help to feel sorry for them and wish to help them. Helping them to overgrow their wounds, doesn't just help them, but it helps to the abused people too, because they become less abusive as more they are able to accept themselves. So I became too emotional (it seems it is only too easy to become too emotional when it comes to Snape) and I apologize if I have hurt anybody's feelings. I am really sorry.

I just think that condemning such people doesn't help anybody unless it includes removing them from the abused, but very often it just means they will go elsewhere and abuse other people. Those are very sensitive people, they sense despise even in the most polite conversation, and they can feel acceptance and respect even in yelling at them. So, it doesn't help just to pretend to accept them the way they are, the acceptance has to come from the heart. And it makes wonders, just not over night.

Therefore, I think that DD respects Snape, but doesn't accept him. He avoids him as well as anybody else. He would never make a chat type of conversation with him, he just needs him to do his job, whatever it is. He trusts him and Snape knows that, so I don't think he could betray him, but he seems not to care at all about his feelings. He thought that Snape should overgrow his youthhood grudge all by himself. He might have not known about the scene from the pensieve, but it seems that bullying Snape was a common thing to to at that time and it seems that DD never stood up in his defence. So, I'm sorry to say, Solitaire, but I'm much more willing to blame DD for the harm that Snape does to the kids than Snape himself. If DD told Snape "The way you behave is not O.K.", he would feel much more accepted then by DD's silence, and it would give Snape the opportunity to ask him "Where have you been when other people behaved like that with me?"

In the conclusion, there is no way I could justify Snape's abusing the children and I don't think he should be allowed to do so. I have no excuse for DD's behavior. I just don't think that Snape is as much guilty for this behavior as some other people.

And I do like your remark, Ponine, of him trying to keep others at a safe distance by his lack of hygiene. He doesn't want anybody to love him because he doesn't want to feel love himself. He doesn't want to be disappointed again in his life and having such pleasant feelings like love or friendship could even jeopardize his Occlumency skills and his relationship with Voldemort. That I find might be a reason why is he almost a good friend with Lucius Malfoy, appart from his money that could help the Slytherins win the Quiddich Cup, because he knows he could never develop such nice feelings towards Malfoy and he helps him not to feel so lonely as he is. And him being nice to Draco, and even calling him by his first name, might be his unconscious wish to feel love coming to surface.


Delightful Task! - May 7, 2005 10:39 am (#1711 of 2980)
Don't worry Lina! I think you were right to defend your point of view, and your last post made it even clearer, I think. That's the problem with a forum, when your view is very personal, it's difficult to explain it, and the people who read you don't know you, your background, and it's difficult to catch all the depth of someone's thought when it's only expressed in a few written words, and when we are not all native English speakers! I think it's important to remember we are all talking about something we really enjoy, and that what we love is to confront our ideas to those of the others! There are not many places where we can do that after all!

Anyway, I don't agree with you completely... I think it's very very difficult to deal with people like Snape in real life, and I tend to think that seeing the victim in them more than the abuser is quite dangerous...

To change topic, according to me, what is really interesting in this character is not exactly his psychological profile in itself, but rather the influence it has on the plot!!

Is Snape on the side of Good, or on Voldemort's side? I'm under the impression that if I had known the answer at the end of Book Three, the following books would be far less interesting!

I feel sure Snape is on the side of good when: - He shows the Dark Mark to Fudge - He defends Neville in Umbridge's office.

On the other hand, I think Snape might be on Voldemort's side when: - he is "so persuaded" that Sirius is a DE and that Peter Pettigrew died as a hero... (he was supposed to be a spy after all!) - when the occlumency lessons he gives seem to worsen things...

I'm sure you do not agree with me, so feel free to tell me what you consider as the most revealing scenes concerning Snape!

(And, Weeny Owl, you tried to answer the questions I had about Snape, but I’m sorry, I don’t think your answers help me consider that Snape is on the side of good!

The one about Voldemort’s name is an important one according to me. Why the Dark Lord ? Why not “you know who?” !)


Ponine - May 7, 2005 12:21 pm (#1712 of 2980)
Delightful Task said; That's the problem with a forum, when your view is very personal, it's difficult to explain it, and the people who read you don't know you, your background, and it's difficult to catch all the depth of someone's thought when it's only expressed in a few written words, and when we are not all native English speakers! I think it's important to remember we are all talking about something we really enjoy, and that what we love is to confront our ideas to those of the others! There are not many places where we can do that after all! I KNOW, DT!! Smile You summed it up perfectly, and that even if though we may disagree (a lot), and things get heated - just to remember that that is afterall what we are here for - to bask in HP world together... Smile

LOL - That being said, DT, I, of course, feel compelled to throw in my two knuts as far as the scenes you mentioned.... Dark Lord - IF we assume that Snape is indeed a spy, then we can also assume that a) he needs to convince all DEs and LV that he is one of them, and use their lingo, so to speak. There are no room for slips of the tongue (or mind, for that matter) if Severus was to address him as Mort Voldylard even once, *poof*, no Snape. Thus, he needs to stay in character. It is much safer to refer to the Dark Lord at Hogwarts, than He who must not be named among DEs. And being around Harry, messing about in his mind, which is connected to LV's, I think it is most wise of him to be consistent, if you know what I mean. Finally, there may be an element of pure fear involved. Snape knows what LV does to his less than faithful servants. As far as Sirius is concerned, I am not sure what you are referring to when you say Snape really wants Peter to be a hero and Sirius the DE - could you refresh my memory?

And Lina - thanks again Smile It is alway so nice when someone agrees with me (for a change Wink That being said, I am not sure I agree with you regarding the Malfoys. I do not for a moment think that Severus appreciated Lucius, and I can't imagine what he really thinks of the smug little brat, but; Draco has a most powerful father and he is a Slytherin. He shares Snape's intense dislike of Harry and he will report back to his father if his pillows are not fluffed right. To do his job well, Snape needs to put up with the Malfoys, IMHO. I think that the (only?) people that Snape could possible relate to would be Dumbledore, McGonagall, Flitwick, Tonks, Arthur, and maybe, hopefully, eventually, Lupin. They are all strong, intelligent, non-threatening people who are 'big' enough to see past Snape's unpleasantness (very active passive-aggressiveness) and somehow reach him, deep in there.


Lina - May 7, 2005 12:31 pm (#1713 of 2980)
Edited May 7, 2005 1:46 pm
Delightful Task!: Why the Dark Lord ? Why not “you know who?” !

I think it is his feeling insecure again. He must have felt more powerful than the "ordinary people" when he was a DE. Now, going to the side of good is a great risk for him to become "ordinary" too. He just doesn't feel strong enough to say Voldemort and he would feel like a helpless bug if he would call him "you know who". That's just my opinion.

Edit: Cross posted with Ponine.

But Ponine, if he would get closer to McGonagal, or Flitwick or the others you mentioned, he would become friends with them and that would soften him. He hangs with Malfoy because he is sure he couldn't get too close to him and become a real friend, therefore he feels secure with Malfoy not to come to those repulsive feelings like friendship and love.

And my opinion about Malfoys is that no matter how evil they are, they feel love among themselves (Narcissa is worried to send Draco to Durmstrang) and Draco is just a child, and as JKR says, no child is born evil, so he might have met Draco behaving like a normal charming child, maybe when he was 3 and Narcissa was putting him to bed while him and Lucius were discussing the donations for Hogwarts.


timrew - May 7, 2005 1:01 pm (#1714 of 2980)
Why the Dark Lord ? Why not “you know who?” !...............

As a spy, Snape must never slip up and call Voldemort by any other name except, My Lord. I think he's just staying in character by calling old Voldywarts, "The Dark Lord" all the time.........


HungarianHorntail11 - May 7, 2005 1:53 pm (#1715 of 2980)
At the Edinburgh book trial, JKR states the following: "Girls, stop going for the bad guy. Go for a nice man in the first place. It took me 35 years to learn that, but I am giving you that nugget free, right now, at the beginning of your love lives."

That's good enough for me, coming from the creator of the character.

At least since he is at the bottom, there is no place to go, but up.

HH11


Ponine - May 7, 2005 2:56 pm (#1716 of 2980)
Lina - you have a good point regarding him not being threatened by Lucius as he is not someone he would really get close to anyways. I think that we in part are hindered by Harry's world views, and that this is why we do not see Snape's bettr-functioning side. McGonagall alludes to her and Snape's ongoing rivalry about the Quidditch Cup, and I think that their relationship may be formal and perhaps not very close, but nonetheless fairly amicable. I can remember no indications of Molly and Arthur disliking him either. Also, supporting your argument on Draco's behalf, I did not find Draco to be that bad when first meeting Harry in the robe shop. Immaturely cocky and inconsiderate, yes, but nothing out of the extraordinary. And at this point, Draco did not know who or what Harry was, indicating at least some desire to get to know this bespectacled, skinny boy with messy hair and baggy clothes.

Oh, and earlier, I forgot to say that I think Harry's dreams and head aches after Occlumency lessons are much his own fault for not following instructions. Harry does not take care to relax and clear himself from negative emotions and turmoil, leaving him susceptable and vulnerable.

And as far as JKR is concerned, I believe your quote is a little out of context, HH, which in entirety is; 'You always see a lot of Snape, because he is a gift of a character. I hesitate to say that I love him. [Audience member: I do]. You do? This is a very worrying thing. Are you thinking about Alan Rickman or about Snape? [Laughter]. Isn’t this life, though? I make this hero—Harry, obviously—and there he is on the screen, the perfect Harry, because Dan is very much as I imagine Harry, but who does every girl under the age of 15 fall in love with? Tom Felton as Draco Malfoy. Girls, stop going for the bad guy. Go for a nice man in the first place. It took me 35 years to learn that, but I am giving you that nugget free, right now, at the beginning of your love lives.' (from Madame Scoop) I think she is frustrated as - she creates a fierce, raging lion, and somehow this lion is perceived as a challenge, a big bad lion simply waiting and longing to be tamed into someone's kitty cat. (This is obviously not meant literally, but I hope you understand what I am trying to get at) It is her frustration over women falling for the baddies in general she finds frustrating, I think.


Ms Amanda - May 8, 2005 5:40 am (#1717 of 2980)
About Snape still being a spy...

In SS/PS, Snape and Quirrel have a confrontation which Harry accidentally overhears. Snape tells Quirrel he will have to decide "where his loyalties lie." (Thanks to frogface for mentioning that quote on the Harry Potter thread and getting my ideas flowing.) Also, Quirrel is aware that it was Snape trying to save Harry when the broom was jinxed. (Is that movie contamination? I'm moving soon and my books are packed.)

Wasn't Voldemort possessing Quirrel at the time?

While Harry seems confused by Snape's actions and believes him to be after the stone, Quirrel harbors no such illusions. Voldemort knows that Snape was trying to save Harry and that Snape confronted Quirrel about divided loyalties to Dumbledore or Voldemort.


Choices - May 8, 2005 9:55 am (#1718 of 2980)
Edited May 8, 2005 11:01 am
Ponine - Thank you for clearing up the comment about loving bad guys -the entire quote certainly tells a different story, doesn't it.

I am one of those that goes back and forth about Snape - if I had a pair of scales on my desk, they would have beaten my desk top to splinters from going up and down so many times with my "he's good", "he's bad" theories. LOL I have to admit that most people seem to want to like Snape or think he is good, for most theories make excuses for his behavior and figure him to be ultimately on the side of good. I read one recently that just about had me in tears for poor, mistreated Severus. Then I read one that left me seriously wondering about his leanings. It had to do with the Occlumency lessons and how Harry felt his mind was more open after the lessons. The gist of the theory was that Voldemort told Snape to use the Occlumency lessons to open Harry's mind more so he could enter it and plant what he needed to lure Harry to the MOM to get the prophesy. He wanted Snape to concentrate on showing Harry the way to get into the DOM and where to locate the orb with the prophesy. Snape helped Harry to "see" the door and have it open - Snape seemed to encourage Harry to visualize this door and learn the way into the DOM. Snape told Harry he wasn't trying in the lessons, he frustrated Harry because he didn't bother to tell him how to close his mind. When he was trying to throw off the effects of the spell, Harry actually was able to throw it off as quickly as Snape did when Harry got into his mind, yet Snape would tell him he wasn't trying hard enough and put him down. Later, when Voldemort put his plan into action to get Harry to the DOM, the theory indicates that Snape delayed doing anything to help give Harry and the others time to get there and then Snape notified the DE's that it was time to move in. Snape didn't know about the DA and that the kids would be able to effectively fight the DE's - he figured the kids would be easy for the DE's to handle. After Snape gave the DE's what he thought was enough time to get rid of the kids and get the prophesy, he then notified the Order so it would look like he was on their side and actually trying to help Harry. This is just briefly what the theory was about. It is detailed and quite convincing. It is the first time a Snape theory has actually made me consider that Snape may be on Voldemort's side. Honestly, I don't want to believe that - Snape is a delicious character and I want him to be a good guy inspite of his questionable teaching methods. LOL These things - the Occlumency lessons and the MOM battle - can be looked at two ways, one seems to work just as well as the other in showing that Snape is good or bad, depending on the view taken. But, isn't that the genius of JKR - you can take something and study it, and come up with two different arguments, one proving that Snape is good, and one proving he's bad. It is amazing how JKR can write so ingeniously that she literally has us strattling the fence about Snape, not knowing which side he is going to fall on.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 8, 2005 10:14 am (#1719 of 2980)
Ponine, my point with the quote is that JKR has lumped Snape as a baddie - no matter how much of the quote you include. I think it would be too easy for her to turn him into a nice guy.


Weeny Owl - May 8, 2005 10:43 am (#1720 of 2980)
The whole "Voldemort being aware Snape was saving Harry as was questioning Quirrell's motives" thing can be easily explained by Snape.

Snape is a smart guy. By the time Voldemort's rebirthing takes place, Snape would have gone over his actions of the last eleven years and found ways to explain away anything Voldemort questions.

Why did he save Harry? He could say that it was the lingering life debt he owed to James and wanted to get it out of the way. He could say that Dumbledore gave him an order to make sure nothing happened during the Quidditch match. He could say Quirrell was mistaken and that it was actually Flitwick or another teacher.

As for Snape confronting Quirrell about his loyalties, Snape had no idea Voldemort was involved. He thought Quirrell was trying to get the stone for himself. If he had known Voldemort was the one who actually wanted it, he would have been eager to help.


Solitaire - May 8, 2005 3:18 pm (#1721 of 2980)
Choices, I think the theory you reference--about Snape delaying notifying the Order about the kids going to the Ministry until there had been time for the DEs to get the prophecy and "take care of the kids"--seems very plausible. I've always felt there was more than one way to interpret Snape's behavior here. I believe it is his "Slytherin-ness" that causes him to frame his actions in such a way that they can be interpreted or understood in a variety of ways ... depending on who is interpreting them.

Solitaire


Puck - May 8, 2005 7:05 pm (#1722 of 2980)
Oh, I think Snape was only too aware of whom the Stone was for. He might not have realized that LV was pocessing Quirell and hiding beneath the Turban, but I bet he knew that Quirrell wasn't after it for himself. Snape is very shrewd. I mean, who else do we notice on Quirrel's tail?


Susan Bones - May 8, 2005 10:15 pm (#1723 of 2980)
Puck, I don't think Weeny Owl means to say that Snape actually had no idea that Lord Voldemort was not involved in Quirrell's attempt to get the stone, but that Snape could argue that he had no idea if questioned by the re-birthed LV about that episode.


Lina - May 9, 2005 12:12 am (#1724 of 2980)
I think it was a very good idea to bring this confrontation between Snape and Quirrel up. I believe we might find out more about it in one of the next books. It is not impossible that Snape knew about Voldemort and Quirrel, and that in that scene Quirrel was confessing to Snape that he is afraid to go after the stone...


Weeny Owl - May 9, 2005 1:52 am (#1725 of 2980)
Puck, I don't think Weeny Owl means to say that Snape actually had no idea that Lord Voldemort was not involved in Quirrell's attempt to get the stone, but that Snape could argue that he had no idea if questioned by the re-birthed LV about that episode.

That's exactly what I was saying. Snape can come up with a lot of reasons for his actions that could fool Voldemort. We don't know if Snape had an idea or not, but even if he did, he doesn't have to admit it.


Delightful Task! - May 9, 2005 7:00 am (#1726 of 2980)
Choices, thanks for your analysis of the two possible explanations of Snape's role in the battle of the MoM... You exactly expressed what I felt!

There is another passage which puzzles me a lot... Actually, and (to make my last post clearer, Ponine!) In that scene in the shrieking shack, Snape arrives, and he is completely mad with furry, and will not listen to anyone...

I feel there are two possible ways of interpreting this scene, but you can only discover it once you've read book four and five and seen that Snape is supposed to be a spy for DD

Well, if Snape is on the side of good, we can understand that he was persuaded that Sirius was the traitor (he could have heard the name of Black among the DEs, without realizing _ or wanting to realize, because of his grudge _ that it was Regulus Black, not Sirius...), he had warned James and DD, but he was also persuaded that James had not believed him and had preferred to trust his old friend Sirius... (That's why he would say: "too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black" (PoA the servant of Lord Voldemort p 389 bloomsbury))

Unfortunately, it was Snape who had been deceived and James had chosen Pettigrew at the last minute, without telling anyone...

Thus , Snape was persuaded Sirius was a traitor, Pettigrew a hero, and he was completely sincere in the shrieking shack.

It was HIS moment, the moment when he would at last pay his debt to James, be recognized as a hero himself etc, etc... or to quote Gandalf... "A fool, but an honest fool he remains"!!

But... This all seems a bit too easy! What if Snape was a spy for Voldemort? Then, it would have been easy for him to speak to DD and James about Sirius... (Wasn't he a Black after all? With all his family, his own brother a follower of Voldemort... He was the perfect culprit, and James was sure to believe Snape and DD too because after all, he is a superb occlumens isn't he?)

Then, when Snape realizes that Sirius is back from Azkaban, he understands that Black could have time to talk to DD this time, and there could be doubts about Snape's loyalty.

If Snape catches Black first, on the other hand, everyone will be certain that Snape is on the side of good and helping the Ministry and DD, Snape will thus protect himself from what Black could reveal _ and in particular the fact that he was never Jame's secret keeper because of Snape's advice, and that Pettigrew was the real DE and then, DD might wonder if Snape was such a good spy after all...

And moreover, if he catches Sirius and has him "silenced", Snape will prove to all the DEs that are left that he is still working for his master (remember that the DEs in Azkaban seem to know that Pettigrew was a DE, according to Sirius...)

When he wants Sirius to receive the Dementor's kiss, that may simply be to protect his position as a spy inside Hogwarts, after all...

And what's more, this chapter, which is called "the servant of Lord Voldemort, begins with Snape entering the shrieking shack...!

Whaa, long post, and I'm not even sure my explanations are very clear! Oh, Of course, feel free to prove my ideas wrong!!!


T Brightwater - May 9, 2005 8:27 am (#1727 of 2980)
I think that in the Shrieking Shack, Snape didn't really care whether Sirius was guilty of betraying the Potters and killing Peter Pettigrew and a dozen Muggles or not; he didn't want to hear a single word in his defense. (Compare this to Fudge's behavior at Harry's trial in OotP.) What Snape wanted was revenge for what the Marauders did to him back in their school days - not only the "prank" that nearly killed him, but the humiliation that we saw in the Pensieve, and doubtless many more incidents.

Never mind that this all happened twenty years ago (and that Snape himself probably contributed to whatever ill-will was going around at the time); never mind that Sirius has been in Azkaban for 12 years already; never mind that several people are begging him to listen to an explanation; never mind that the fate he is wishing for Sirius and Lupin is much worse than death or lycanthropy: he wants his revenge for the wrongs done against him, with accumulated interest, right now. To say the least, I don't think this is healthy.

Lina, you've probably seen more of the harm that long-held and obsessive grudges can do than any of us. I do pity Severus, because he's hurting himself as much as he is anyone else; he's imprisoned inside himself, because he won't let go of his hate. It's greatly to his credit that at at least some crucial moments he can do the right thing in spite of all that. I find myself cheering at any tiny hint that he might be ready to feel compassion or joy or even just let go a little, such as the end-of-term banquet in GoF and when McGonagall returns near the end of OotP. I think Dumbledore cares about him, and would do anything he could to help him, and there are probably others who would try to help as well, like Remus. But ultimately, it's his choice, to stay locked in his hate and vengefulness, or to forgive and begin to know joy and love again. He's like some of the characters in C.S. Lewis's _The Great Divorce_, who would rather stay in hell when all they would have to do to get into heaven is to give up a grudge, or a sense of injury, or a sense of their own importance.


Delightful Task! - May 9, 2005 8:58 am (#1728 of 2980)
Yet, we see how dangerous Snape's grudges can turn out to be...

And if he is honest and "simply" mean and full of hatred, I imagine this could be used by Voldemort too...

This passage about "James's arrogance" in the shrieking shack makes me think that, if Snape was really on the good side, then he indeed tried to warn James that Sirius was a traitor ( because he sincerely believed it) but then he thought James had not believed him and chosen Sirius as a secret keeper all the same.

And what if Voldemort had led Snape to find the information he "wanted" to find (I imagine Voldemort could have known Snape hated Sirius, this way, it was easy to guess that if Snape heard a rumour about Sirius Black being a DE, he would believe it quite readily).

Snape could have told James not to trust Sirius because he sincerely thought it, but at the same time, he could have been deceived by Voldemort who knew he was a spy for DD, but found this quite useful!...

Poor Snape... (!) then, he would be a DE only because Voldemort needs him. Voldemort would use him, let him spy on him, only to influence DD's choices and keep an "eye" inside Hogwarts!...

Voldemort's "one who I believe has left me forever", finds another meaning in that context... Voldemort at that moment could think Snape would not take up his job as a spy again, then he became useless for him. And when Snape returns in book 5, of course Voldemort doesn't kill him, but not because Snape is really good at convincing him, only because Voldemort needs him, and his hatred, and his meanness!


HungarianHorntail11 - May 9, 2005 9:23 am (#1729 of 2980)
I think that in the Shrieking Shack, Snape didn't really care whether Sirius was guilty of betraying the Potters and killing Peter Pettigrew and a dozen Muggles or not; he didn't want to hear a single word in his defense.

This scene where Snape would hand him over to the dementors in an instant is strikingly similar to the one where Fudge summoned Crouch Jr.'s dementor, albeit, probably for slightly different reasons, self-serving, nonetheless.


septentrion - May 9, 2005 9:27 am (#1730 of 2980)
DD spoke with Sirius before the near Sirius' "execution" yet DD still had faith in Snape after that, so I don't buy the theory according to which Snape was trying to save his own skin by making sure Sirius was out of his way.

BTW great posts DT !


Delightful Task! - May 9, 2005 9:45 am (#1731 of 2980)
Thanks Septentrion! **blushes!** Anyway, I thought of what you said, but I'm not sure it is enough to prove Snape didn't try to get rid of Sirius to protect himself. If he is indeed a spy for Voldemort "willingly", then things are easier if Sirius is out of the way...


Snuffles - May 9, 2005 12:31 pm (#1732 of 2980)
Nice post T Brightwater, you said what I wanted to say but put it better than I would have done.


Nathan Zimmermann - May 12, 2005 5:30 pm (#1733 of 2980)
Edited May 12, 2005 6:43 pm
Earlier on in the thread it the possibility that Severus had a wife who was murdered by Voldemort and or the Death Eaters. This possibility intrigues me because, of the statements that J.K. Rowling made about the Hogwarts graveyard.

This is purely speculative but, I would like to see what everyone thinks.

Dumbledore has repeatedly told Harry that he trusts Snape but, has not disclosed the reasons on which he bases his trust. Earlier on in thread the possibility that Severus had a wife other close relative who was murdered at the hands of Voldemort and his minions was mentioned. Assuming that such a character may possibly exist. Is it possible that Dumbledore in order give Harry a more balanced prespective of Snape takes him to the graveyard to show him the grave and explain to him the circumstances that caused Snape to spy for the Order.

Also, in Snape at Godric's Hollow thread fbv807 posted an interesting question if one assumes that Karakoff is the DE mentioned by voldemort as being too cowardly to return and who will be made to pay. Is it possible that Karakoff may pay Voldemort by killing Severus in essence paying the debt Voldemort feels he is owed by Karakoff by killing Snape assuming that Snape is the Death Eater who has left Voldemort's service forever.


GryffEndora - May 13, 2005 8:11 am (#1734 of 2980)
FYI: JKR has debunked a rumor about Snape in the Rumor section of her official site. If you want to check it out ...


Nathan Zimmermann - May 13, 2005 8:21 am (#1735 of 2980)
GryffEndora, that certainly was an interesting rumour, I'd never heard that before. I doubt given Snape's character that he could tolerate a daughter like Luna or Hermione.


GryffEndora - May 13, 2005 9:04 am (#1736 of 2980)
It wasn't a rumor I'd heard either, but it was interesting.


librarian314 - May 13, 2005 10:52 am (#1737 of 2980)
Hey all!

I'd never heard that particular rumour either. It's one of those things that never even crossed my mind.

What struck me as particularly interesting was that JKR didn't rule out a son. There could well be a Snape, Jr. floating around somewhere. Is she doing this to yank our chains, give us something to murmur about for the next two months or is it a hint?

*michelle the librarian**


Cornelia - May 17, 2005 12:49 am (#1738 of 2980)
Edited May 17, 2005 3:19 am
I nearly fell off my chair as I read it.

I really do hope that it is a hint. It would fit so nicely in the theory about his wife (or the death of her) being the reason to break with Voldemort. But what if Voldemort finds out about his son? He could get him and would have a strong weapon to put Snape under pressure (if he cares about his son).

Even if it´s not a hint, it´s pure fun to speculate! Who/where is he? How old is he? Class-mate of Harry?

I just read on the spouse thread, that Snape would probably wash his hair if he was in love. Now I´m wondering if the hairstyle of a character is important. Sirius doesn´t cut his hair when he´s sad/in a bad mood. Does Severus the same and his greasy hair expresses his grief/bad mood? What I´m wondering about is: Is it common in the wizarding World to express feelings via the haircut (or the lack of it)?


Ydnam96 - May 17, 2005 7:24 am (#1739 of 2980)
Haha, that leads me to think about the Biblical story of Samson. Maybe Snape's 'strength' is in his hair?? Or maybe there is some sort of 'thing' in the magical world about long hair being a sign of a good wizard. Look at DD. (and also makes me think of Lord of the Rings where all of the major male characters had long hair (except the hobbits which are generally the exception in almost everything), Gandalf, Sauruman, Legolas, Gimli, Aragorn, all the elves really...).

Wonder what would happen if Snape shaved his head (ewww)?


Choices - May 17, 2005 7:59 am (#1740 of 2980)
Edited May 17, 2005 9:00 am
But Voldemort doesn't have long hair......and Hagrid does.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 17, 2005 9:38 am (#1741 of 2980)
Edited May 17, 2005 10:39 am
Hmmm . . . a male Medusa. That would be interesting.

What kind of hair does Big V have? I don't remember.


Tomoé - May 17, 2005 9:54 am (#1742 of 2980)
Edited May 17, 2005 10:54 am
We don't know, 16 years old Tom Riddle had jet black hair, that's all we know.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 17, 2005 9:57 am (#1743 of 2980)
Thanks, Tomoe. Whew, I thought my memory was failing! I didn't remember reading any description regarding Big V's hair in books 4 or 5. JKR is usually quite descriptive when it comes to her characters. I wonder why she didn't describe it.


Choices - May 17, 2005 10:01 am (#1744 of 2980)
Edited May 17, 2005 11:02 am
Well, you got me there. LOL It simply never mentions it in the books and I am going by (yikes) what we saw in the movies......yep, I have been contaminated by the movies. Quirrell didn't have long hair, or any hair at all - but I guess Voldemort made him shave his head so he could see out. LOL Tom Riddle had short hair and the other time we see Voldemort he is walking up to the Potter's house and he is wearing a hooded cloak, so no clue there. It will be interesting to see how he is portrayed hair-wise in GOF. I suppose he could have long hair like Lucius Malfoy or Dumbledore, or short like James and Lupin. Thanks for making me rethink that. :-)


frogface - May 17, 2005 10:04 am (#1745 of 2980)
I've always imagined him bald, not sure why. But yes it will be interesting to see how Ralph Finnes looks in the movies.


Accio Sirius - May 17, 2005 10:58 am (#1746 of 2980)
Haven't visited the Snape thread in a while. Quite a lot to catch up on. A couple of things struck me when reading the posts. Someone said that JKR was definitely trying to make Snape sympathetic in the books. I'm not sure I agree. She has made him complex and thought-provoking, but not very sympathetic. That doesn't mean that he isn't doing the right thing. I feel like he has the ability to complete a task or goal at whatever the cost. Maybe the final goal is a worthy cause, but he is willing to do what it takes without sentiment or persuasion to get it done--sort of an enforcer. That's how he can sort of step all over people's feelings. Not a likable quality, but someone you would want on your side. And I thought what Lina had said about Snape's appearance is part of his shield against people was interesting. He definitely doesn't care what people think of him, which also helps him get the task at hand done. And he's not exactly a victim, except as a victim of his own anger. In a way it empowers him, but not necessarily to do the right thing. I'm sure he feels completely justified in wanting to let the Dementors perform the kiss on Sirius. And finally, I agree with Tim in that he still refers to Voldie as the Dark Lord because whether or not he's still a spy, you still use the tools you've learned. Why risk it and call him something else. You cover your bases. And despite everything, he probably still has respect for LV's powers, if not methods. The interesting thing is, although he calls Lily a mudblood in the Marauder scene, I never got the impression from anything else that he was as into the pureblood mania as Lucius or even the Black family. I feel like he tolerates Draco more than likes or admires him. I guess despite his representation in the books, I don't see him as such an eager DE recruit--I don't know why.


Choices - May 17, 2005 4:32 pm (#1747 of 2980)
Frogface - "I've always imagined him bald"

LOL Now that you say that, I guess I have too. It's hard to imagine someone with features like a snake having long hair. I think he should be sleek and hairless like a reptile.


mooncalf - May 17, 2005 4:34 pm (#1748 of 2980)
Interesting post, Accio Sirius.

I agree with everything you have said except for one thing; I think that Snape cares very much about what people think about him. I think that much of what he says and does - maybe even his greasy hair - is a defensive mechanism to keep people from getting too close to him, presumably out of fear of being hurt. (Which can lead to all sorts of speculation about what made him fear closeness!) I think that at some level he deliberately makes himself unlikable so that others will keep their distance.

If he didn't care what people thought, then why would he be so insistent on on being shown proper respect ("Call me 'Sir' or 'Professor'.)

I suppose that one could argue that he wants respect and not friendship. Personally I think that he demands respect, but fears friendship. The insistence on being shown proper respect could either be one more way of making sure that other people keep their distance, or he may insist on respect as a substitute for friendship.

I'd say he's one heck of a lonely guy. Gina, I hope you're looking after him! :-)


Ponine - May 18, 2005 2:42 am (#1749 of 2980)
Accio Sirius and Moon Calf - I completely agree with both your posts, and I think to add to that, that there perhaps can be a distinction drawn here between feeling and thinking. IMHO, I think that Snape does care very much what people THINK of him; he does demand/seek respect/fear from others, he clearly prides himself in excelling in what he does, ('I believe I am the Potions Master'), and, as it has been pointed out by Moon Calf, he is adament in being called Sir or Professor. That being said, I do not think he cares (or wants to care...) how people FEEL about him, that is whether they like him or not, finds him attractive (in the broader sense, not in the romantic sense) etc... He has made it clear that feelings are for the weak, and thus, he will have nothing to do with it...


T Brightwater - May 18, 2005 5:04 am (#1750 of 2980)
Good distinction, Ponine! I wonder if he has been betrayed by someone he was close to, or wanted to be close to.
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Accio Sirius - May 18, 2005 5:17 am (#1751 of 2980)
Well said Ponine (and Mooncalf). That makes sense to me as well. He does demand respect, especially from Harry. He seems totally nonplussed by the fact that they don't like him, but they better call him Sir.


Solitaire - May 19, 2005 8:39 pm (#1752 of 2980)
I suspect that Snape's sojourn with the DEs was more about power, commanding respect, and being given a free hand to use the Dark Arts. Remember that Sirius said Snape was just an oddball who was "up to his eyes" in the Dark Arts. Surely Dumbledore would not have given him much chance to practice them. Since the Dark Arts would have been one area in which Snape would probably have surpassed James and Sirius, it is not surprising he might have pursued an opportunity to shine.

If Snape's defection from the DEs was truly genuine, then I suspect it was because he found that practicing the Dark Arts carried a price tag that was far more dear than he originally thought.

Solitaire


Gina R Snape - May 20, 2005 6:41 am (#1753 of 2980)
I agree with you Solitaire. (Ok, you can get up now ).

I think Snape wanted the opportunity to practice some dark arts. But he was likely not too fond of being subjugated by the likes of the dark lord. I have never gotten the sense that Snape was in line with the pureblood thinking. Yes, he is a slytherin. But I think he is one because of his craftiness and his desire to be respected. He cares a great deal what people think of his skills, but doesn't care too much about how they feel about him--as someone else pointed out earlier.

Other than calling Lily a mudblood when under duress (and possibly to garner the help of a few slytherins), we've never heard him utter any words or phrases that particulary point toward a dislike of muggleborns and mixed bloods. He does not seem to take blood status into account when he targets kids for his, er, special attention. And he certainly seemed concerned for Ginny Weasley (a 'blood traitor family' according to Mrs. Black) when she was taken by Tom Riddle's little pet basilisk in the chamber.

As for the scar, I have just gotten up to point in my rereading of OOTP where Harry has his lessons with Snape. And it is another example of extraordinary timing. JKR does this all the time and, sorry, but it frustrates the pixies out of me that people don't see this. Snape starts teaching Harry Occlumency because the Dark Lord has figured out he can get into Harry and vice versa. No matter who was teaching Harry, this was peak time for mental assault by the Dark Lord. He was putting his plan into place...and it worked! Never mind that it would have been more efficient for him to simply go to the ministry and get the prophesy himself (which makes Voldemort not terribly bright in my eyes). But I digress...

DD wanted occlumency lessons to start precisely because he knew Voldemort had figured out a new plan. It was a race to the finish to see if Harry could block that plan or not, but he didn't. He wasn't motivated to learn and he was anxious and suspicious of Snape. AND, of course, Harry was not clued into the plan. So all that worked against occlumency working. But because it was Snape giving the lessons, it's easy to just read on the surface and assume Snape is making things worse, rather than just not fully capable of making things better.

Snape does an incredible amount of careful explaining to keep Harry uninformed (per DD's directive to all Order members), while at the same time reporting back to DD about what Harry is seeing. DD says to Harry that Snape reported Harry's visions about the corridor. Snape is clearly doing two jobs at once--teaching Harry and reporting to DD. But it proved a bad combination for those two to work so closely together. And it was just generally too much pressure on Harry without providing a reason to motivate him.

I think DD has learned that lesson and Harry will be "in" on a LOT more in the next book.


GryffEndora - May 20, 2005 8:23 am (#1754 of 2980)
Gina - I agree 100% with your post. Your interpretation of the events going on during the Occlumancy lessons are exactly what I see as well, you are simply better at putting it into words than I. Thank you!


Miriam Huber - May 20, 2005 8:52 am (#1755 of 2980)
Gina, I thought about that timing, too. And it seems to me the best explanation for Harry´s scar "getting worse". But there are two things that bother me:

1. Harry had the vision of the attack shortly before Christmas, but no problems with his scar until the start of new term. Why wasn´t Voldemort using the connection between Christmas and start of term?

2. Voldemort only knew he had to use Harry to remove the prophecy after Rockwood told him only he and Harry would be able to. But when this interview happened, Harry already had Occlumency since several weeks - and a worse hurting scar. But before Voldemort knew this, he would have had no interest to break into Harry´s mind and manipulate it, would he? One could think he would on the contrary be more concerned to block the connection as good as possible. This means one could have expected that Harry´s scar would get worse only AFTER V´s talk with Rockwood.

What do you thing? Did I overlook something? I confess, this whole Occlumency-scar-hurting-behaviour-of-Snape-thing is one of the most thought-povoking and unsolved things in Oop to me.


GryffEndora - May 20, 2005 9:10 am (#1756 of 2980)
Miriam Huber - 1. Harry had the vision of the attack shortly before Christmas, but no problems with his scar until the start of new term. Why wasn´t Voldemort using the connection between Christmas and start of term?

Voldemort didn't use the connection until after the attack on Arthur because Voldemort didn't know the connection existed until Harry intruded so far into Voldemort's thoughts that He was noticed by LV. I believe Snape or Dumbledore or both explain this in OotP. Voldemort doesn't have a scar that burns when Harry is around or overly emotional, so he has no external alarm system, as Harry does. When LV was possessing Nagini and attacking Arthur he was probably very mentally taxed as well as excited and energized because of the attack. When Harry realizes what is happening and wakes up I think Harry's emotional reaction was strong enough to catch LV's attention and that is when he figured it all out.

With every muscle you train it has to get weaker before it gets stronger, you break it down a little before you build it up (at least, I think that's how it works). Harry, trying to strengthen his mind, would have to weaken it a bit before being able to strengthen it. Unfortunately he was not motivated to work hard, he didn't practice, he didn't clear his mind, he was curious about the visions and he didn't trust his trainer. Harry had a lot of things working against him, I just don't think Snape was one of them. I don't fully trust Snape, but I really do feel he was trying to teach Harry, he just didn't know how to do it effectively because he doesn't like or respect "Mr. Potter".


Gina R Snape - May 20, 2005 9:28 am (#1757 of 2980)
I think Voldemort had just figured out what happened. DD wanted to set things into motion because he had an inkling of what was down the road. My hunch is that Voldemort first wanted to find a way to keep Harry out of HIS head. And he was busy devising a plan. Harry was tapping into Voldemort's head, and his desire to get through that door. Later, Voldemort uses that to tease and prompt Harry into wanting to get through that door.

Don't forget, too, that Harry taps into Voldemort's strong emotions. I'm quite certain there were plenty of those for Harry to feel. Voldemort could NOT have been happy to figure out Harry had a hotwire to Voldemort's emotional states and thoughts because of a backfired scar that failed to kill Harry in the first place!


Grindylow - May 20, 2005 10:34 am (#1758 of 2980)
I am not sure where this question belongs, or where I might find it answered elsewhere, but wouldn't Voldy know that Snape is a traitor since he was in Quirrell's head when Snape and Quirrell had their conversation about loyalties in PS/SS?

Please feel free to point me in the direction of this answer if it has already been given and forgive me for changing the subject...


GryffEndora - May 20, 2005 12:01 pm (#1759 of 2980)
Well, if Snape argues that he did not know Voldemort was using Quirrel and that He thought Quirrel wanted the stone for his own purposes then he might be able to convince LV that He (Snape) is still loyal to LV and is simply staying at Hogwarts to be close to DD and get LV inside information.

I hope that long meandering sentence makes sense. *crosses fingers*


Lina - May 20, 2005 2:10 pm (#1760 of 2980)
Grindylow, I thought it might help to put the conversation here:

"... d-don't know why you wanted t-t-to meet here of all p-places, Severus..."
"Oh, I thought we'd keep this private," said Snape, his voice icy. "Students aren't supposed to know about the Philosopher's Stone, after all."
Harry leant forward. Quirrell was mumbling something. Snape interrupted him.
"Have you found out how to get past that beast of Hagrid's yet'"
"B-b-but Severus, I-"
"You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell," said Snape, taking a step towards him.
I-I don-t know what you -"
"you know perfectly well what I mean."
An owl hooted loudly and Harry nearly fell out of the tree. He steadied himself in time to hear Snape say, "- your little bit of hocus pocus. I'm waiting."
"B-but I d-d-don't -"
"Very well," Snape cut in. "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie."
PS, Bloomsbury edition, Chapter "Nicolas Flamel"

I must say that I don't understand anything from this conversation, I hope it gets explained in one of the next books. It is possible that Snape told openly to Quirrell that he works for Voldemort and that he wants to get the Stone for him. It seems as if he tries to find out from Quirrell the way to come to the Stone. It is not impossible that he wanted to know how far has Quirrell come in discovering the way to the Stone, but it seems as he is the one that wants to get it and that, for some unknown reason, Quirrell should be loyal to him. That's how I see it.

But looking for this conversation, I went through the two quiddich games. At the end of the book, Quirrell knew that it was Snape who was stopping his curse, it means that Voldemort knew it too. This is something i already found the way for Snape to explain to Voldemort - the possibility that he could be hurt or destroyed if somebody else tried to kill Harry. But my question is: did Snape know that it was Quirrell who he was stopping?

The next game, it is obvious that Snape reported to DD that at least somebody was trying to disable Harry, because it is Snape who was the referee for that game, probably because he was more powerful wizard than prof. Hooch, and DD came to the game. Was it just because DD was even more powerful or because he was the only one who Voldemort feared?

All the time, Harry has the feeling that Snape can red minds. If it is true, could he read Quirrell's mind and find out Voldemort in it?

Why should Quirrell be loyal to him?

By rereading PS/SS for the fifth time, I just see the most proofs that he is on the side of good and that fully cooperates with DD, more then in GoF for example. Can you imagine his pain having to save Harry and keep him in good health when just a second of inattention could bring the victory to Slytherins? He had to help Harry win the Slytherins! Oh, isn't that enough to hate him for the rest of his life?

I don't know, just too many questions, I hope that at least some will be answered. I think I'm lost now.


Choices - May 20, 2005 5:01 pm (#1761 of 2980)
Lina - Thanks for posting that conversation in the forest between Snape and Quirrell. Like the prophesy, I think this exchange between them is carefully worded to be ambiguous - so we can read all sorts of things into it which may or may not be correct.


Choices - May 20, 2005 6:00 pm (#1762 of 2980)
Edited May 20, 2005 7:02 pm
Here is a post that I put on the JKR site and it really belongs here. I had read about JKR saying Snape did not have a "daughter" and people where jumping on the bandwagon for him maybe having a son since JKR didn't specifically say he didn't. I had proposed that maybe Draco was really Snape's son and Snape had asked Lucius Malfoy to take him and raise him as his own because Snape had decided to become a spy for Dumbledore and knew how dangerous a life it would be for him and he wouldn't have the time to raise his son properly. I have long suspected that there is some connection (perhaps a family one) between Snape and Lucius. Someone brought up that Draco had a pale, pointed face like Lucius (looked nothing like Snape) and this was my reply.....

If.....(big IF) Snape was married to Lucius Malfoy's sister, Draco's pale, pointed face could come from her - she and Lucius might have these facial features in common. Thus, Draco looks like his Uncle Lucius more than he looks like his (supposed) father Snape. Perhaps Snape's wife was killed when Draco was small and Snape asked his brother-in-law Lucius to take Draco and raise him as his own because Snape was going to turn spy for Dumbledore and knew his life, and that of his son, would be in grave danger if his defection from Voldemort was discovered. Draco was never told who his real father is - he thinks he is a Malfoy and acts accordingly. I don't have any ideas about why or how Snape's wife might have been killed, but it could have been the event that turned Snape away from being a DE and made him change his loyalties from Voldemort to Dumbledore.

It's just a wild theory that could possibly work. There is really nothing (that I know of) in canon to either prove or disprove it. If someone knows of something, then blow it out of the water.


Ponine - May 20, 2005 6:02 pm (#1763 of 2980)
I like it, Choices - It is interesting. The only thing I don't like is that prospect that Snape then actually does prefer Draco over the others, and I was hoping that was just part of the plan...


Grindylow - May 20, 2005 6:34 pm (#1764 of 2980)
Edited May 20, 2005 7:35 pm
Thanks for all who answered my question. I do hope this gets explained in the coming books, as I am sure it will.

I also love the idea that Draco is really Snape's son! Wouldn't that just beat all? Does anyone know for sure if Lucius has a sister?


Lina - May 21, 2005 3:22 am (#1765 of 2980)
Grindylow: Does anyone know for sure if Lucius has a sister?

I think you are asking too much...

But, If Snape asked Lucius a favor to raise his son, would it mean that Lucius knows that Snape works for DD? Would it mean that Lucius is pretending to be a DE too? Would he have slept the Tom Riddle's secret diary to Ginny if he were not a real DE? If Snape is loyal to DD, would he let the real DE raise his son? Would Narcissa accept to raise someone else's child? (Well, she could have been not able to have children...)


muggle born - May 21, 2005 4:22 am (#1766 of 2980)
Edited May 21, 2005 5:23 am
Lina that is why I don't believe that draco is Snape's son.


Gina R Snape - May 21, 2005 6:06 am (#1767 of 2980)
This whole line of thought seems like it would be better suited to the fanfiction thread, to be honest. Sorry!


T Brightwater - May 21, 2005 7:43 am (#1768 of 2980)
I'd like to propose, as a working hypothesis, that anyone whose parents we know _anything_ about is really the child of those parents; that's been Jo's consistent answer to questions of that sort.

If I'm right about that, and _if_ Snape has a son, and _if_ we've met him, we can eliminate all the Gryffindor boys of Harry's year, all the Weasley boys, the Creevey brothers (Muggleborns), Justin Finch-Fletchley (Muggleborn), Ernie MacMillan (pureblood from a family that has always supported Dumbledore), Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, and Theodore Nott. Blaise Zabini is still a possibility, though. Has he actually made an appearance since his Sorting?

I'm more inclined to think, however, that Snape doesn't have any offspring. (now watch, his son will turn out to be the HBP :-)


Solitaire - May 21, 2005 8:37 am (#1769 of 2980)
Edited May 21, 2005 9:38 am
Thus far, I think the only subsequent sighting of Blaise has been in a chat with Jo, correct? Or am I forgetting something? I agree with Brightwater ... just because Jo answered that Snape didn't have a daughter doesn't necessarily mean he MUST have a son. If he does, Blaise might fill the bill, since we have no other information to suggest who he really is.

Regarding Draco ... it's one thing to "pull a switch" on us that is wrapped up within a book--like she did with Moody/Crouch in GoF--or to tease us all along with a rather ambiguous character like Snape, who could be working for Voldemort instead of Dumbledore. However, suddenly springing on us in book 6 or 7 that Draco is Snape's son--with nothing thus far in the text to suggest this--would not only require a great deal of plot manipulation, it would almost seem dishonest.

Springing on us a change in Neville's parentage would seem less shocking because of what we know of Neville's past history from his own narration. His family's fear that he might be a Squib has already prompted some suspicion that Neville might not be exactly who we think he is (yes, I've read her comment on her site). Uncle Algie, too, has been set up as a slightly suspicious character by his treatment of Neville. So some change in what we know of these two characters, while unsettling, would not come as a HUGE shock to most readers. I tend to agree that, if Snape has a son, he is not Draco. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire


Miriam Huber - May 21, 2005 11:34 am (#1770 of 2980)
Gina, I have to come back again to your post (1757). I agree that probably Voldemort didn´t start breaking into Harry´s mind directly after the Arthur Weasley-attack because he firstly wanted to protect himself now he had learned that Harry could get into his mind.

But I still don´t understand the second point I mentioned: In January, when Snape started giving Harry Occlumency lessons, Harry´s scar started to hurt worse. At that time, Voldemort KNEW about the connection but he had no reason to USE it, as he was informed about the conditions for lifting the prophecy only weeks or even months afterwards.

So IF, as you (and I, despite my questions) are assuming, the hurting of the scar had no causal connection to Snape´s lesson but was caused by Voldemort, what did he want to do in Harry´s mind at that time?


Ponine - May 21, 2005 5:02 pm (#1771 of 2980)
Question for both Gina and Miriam (and of course everyone else), pertaining to Harry's dreams and my confusion... sigh - I am so frustrated by being so confused!! Referring to Gina's post 1757 and Miriam's post 1770, I first will say that I do not think Snape opened Harry's mind, as I have said before, I think Harry himself who left himself vulnerable to mind attacks as he failed to empty and block out his mind as instructed before he went to sleep. Fine. What I have a hard time really grasping is that Harry from the very beginning of the book dreamt of the corridors and possibly the door, in fact, he had dreams about them the entire summer. Based on your factual knowledge, can it be considered canon that these dreams were Harry intruding in LV's mind without consent or knowledge? I have a hard time with the logistics of it all sometimes Sad I just find it so interesting how fluid or blurry the boundaries between what Harry unintentionally picks up on and what is intentionally given to him are, if that makes sense... I wonder to what extent Legilimency and Occlumency can really work between the two of them - it sounds like some sort of whacky experiment destined to blow up...


Choices - May 21, 2005 5:19 pm (#1772 of 2980)
Edited May 21, 2005 6:23 pm
Ponine - "can it be considered canon that these dreams were Harry intruding in LV's mind without consent or knowledge?"

I may be mistaken, but I thought it was just the opposite - Voldemort planting the scenes in Harry's mind as preparation for getting Harry to go to the MOM and then into the DOM to get the orb so Voldemort could hear the prophesy for himself. He wanted Harry to be able to find his way to the room where the orbs are kept. Dumbledore wanted Snape to try to teach Harry to stop this - I think he was more worried about Voldemort getting into Harry's mind, than the other way around.

BTW - Does anyone else wonder if the shelf number where the prophesy about Harry and Voldemort is stored - row 97 - is a clue that the prophesy will come to pass in 1997 - the year it will be at the start of book 7?


Gina R Snape - May 21, 2005 5:32 pm (#1773 of 2980)
Thank you, Ponine. That is exactly what I was going to use by way of example to respond to Miriam. Harry was tapping into Voldemort's desires and feelings before Voldemort started manipulating Harry for his own purposes. I think the attack at the MoM set off a wave of emotions in Voldemort as he endeavored to find a plan to get to the prophesy.


Ponine - May 21, 2005 7:00 pm (#1774 of 2980)
Choices - I realize when reading your post that I probably used 'intruded' incorrectly, as I did not mean that it was something Harry consciously or intentionally did or set out to do. What I have gathered, and from what I understand, is in accordance with what Gina just stated above, is that Harry repeatedly dreamt of the corridor before Voldemort realized that he could manipulate Harry's mind.

Gina - You are most welcome Smile Great minds, you know... Wink So, if I have got it right;

It has been established then, that Harry has dreams about the corridor already in August. These dreams are unbeknownst to Voldemort, and are, I assume (at least for the time being) caused by the AK that Fizzled. Harry is not aware of the fact that these dreams come from LV's mind.

In December, Harry witnesses the attack of Arthur through the eyes of LV in snake form.

In January, Severus is to teach Harry Occlumency, to block his mind to LV. According to Snape, the 'event shortly before Christmas' made LV realize that he has some access to Harry's mind, and vice versa. Dumbledore's conversation with Harry at the very end of OoP backs this up, explaning to Harry that 'you entered so far into his mind and thoughts that he sensed your presence. I am speaking of course, of the night you witnessed the attack of Arthur Weasley'.

During the very first Occlumency lesson with Snape, Harry realizes that the corridor with the locked door exists, and that he has seen it before with Arthur. The same evening, the trio deduces that the weapon must be hidden in the DoM in the MoM. The very same night, Harry is 'struck with a LV moment', causing Harry to realize that something makes LV happier than he has been for the last fourteen years.

I know that there must be some gaping holes in the time line, so I would appreciate any additional information, especially pertaining to Miriam's thoughts around timing, the LV happy moment and the recation had to Dodo.... This is really starting to stray from Snape, ennit...?!?!


rambkowalczyk - May 21, 2005 7:55 pm (#1775 of 2980)
I wonder if Dumbledore knew in advance or considered the possibility that the Occlumency lessons might not work as well as he wanted. Not because of Snape's emotional baggage but because the link between Harry and Voldemort is not normal.

Snape points out that "time and space matter in magic,"..."Eye contact is often essential to Legilimency." He then states "The usual rules do not seem to apply with you,Potter. The curse that failed to kill you seems to have forged some kind of connection between you and the Dark Lord. The evidence suggests that at times when your mind is more relaxed and vulnerable--when you are asleep for instance--you are sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions."

It looks as though that the way the Voldemort and Harry can know each other's thoughts and emotions is not through Legilimency but through the scar. Although Occlumency is defined as the magic that "seals the mind against magical intrusion and influence", it could be that the method Snape is using to teach Harry Occlumency wouldn't work even if Lupin taught it and Harry practiced.

If Harry and Voldemort share some essence (and Dumbledore alludes to this in book 2), then the usual techniques of Occlumency won't work because it would be the equivalent of Harry trying to block his own thoughts. It seems that Harry should have been taught Legilimency so he could determined whether the thoughts he gets from Voldemort are real or deceptive.

Choices, I agree that there could be a tie between Snape and the Malfoys. He could even be married to Lucius sister but I don't think Draco belongs to him. I would speculate that Snape might be a godfather to Draco because there does seem to be a friendly relationship between the two. It is even possible in Snape's warped vision, he believes that Harry is the bully to Draco in the same way that James was to him. If Snape was a godfather to Draco, would Draco brag about it?


Miriam Huber - May 21, 2005 11:08 pm (#1776 of 2980)
Edited May 22, 2005 12:11 am
Concerning Harry´s dreams in August, I always assumed that this was Harry unconsciously visiting Voldemort´s thoughts (and Voldemort thinking consciously about the corridor, but not knowing or wanting Harry to see it - oh, this is difficult in writing! We would have cleared up the whole thing in a minute, sitting in a café...)

Discussing the connection between Harry and V, Dumbledore said about the summer and autumn something like (whoever has the exact quote, please help): "Voldemort was obsessed with hearing the prophecy in its entirety. So he was (in his thoughts) dwelling on that door -- and so were you."

So I think that is completely in accordance with you, Ponine and Gina. No discussion on that matter.

My only question was why Harry´s scar was getting worse before Voldemort could have wanted to start intruding his mind.

As far as I understand you, Gina, you are supposing that in January (before the Rockwood incident) Harry´s scar was not hurting worse because Voldemort fiddled with Harry´s brain but because Voldemort felt strong emotions. Do I understand you correctly?

This would make it that way (answering to Choices, too): Firstly, August and on, Harry dreamed about the corridor because Voldemort was thinking about it. V didn´t want Harry to see and didn´t know it. Christmas, V discovered the connection and knew he could intrude Harry´s mind. But at that time, he had no reason to do it. After Rockwood told V either V himself or Harry had to get the prophecy, V used the connection to plant the vision into Harry´s head to make him come into the MoM.

By the way, I suppose V was already trying for weeks and weeks to let Harry see the vision before he succeeded. Remember how often the dream broke off because of a disturbance (rocket in the grounds, Ron snoring) or because Harry´s "Hermione-part" woke him up? At least, in his History of Magic-OWL-test Harry was after the night with Hagrid´s flight so exhausted the vision could go until the end.

I, at least, was reading it that way and I always get almost goosebumps when Harry is dreaming about that corridor and the OPEN door and is NEARLY getting there.


Weeny Owl - May 22, 2005 12:24 am (#1777 of 2980)
From my understanding Dumbledore didn't want to teach Occlumency to Harry because he didn't want Harry's mind opened in a way that Voldemort would guess that Harry meant more to Dumbledore than just another student.

I don't think it's anything Snape is doing, rather it's a byproduct of Occlumency lessons.

Harry's connection through the scar allowed him to experience what Voldemort was experiencing, but it was only after Harry went too deep that Voldemort realized what was happening. That was when he needed a way to block the dreams.

Of course if he would've practiced, it might've helped, but with the strong connection who really knows.


Solitaire - May 22, 2005 7:55 am (#1778 of 2980)
Edited May 22, 2005 8:56 am
In order to teach Harry to close his mind, the teacher--whoever it was--would be forced to open his mind in order to make him learn to close it. Snape would have to open Harry's mind in order to teach him how to seal it; I think that's a given. It's just that, with Snape, Harry eventually did make the effort to block his entrances. After the sessions and once out of Snape's presence, however, he would naturally be so tired and angry that he simply let his guard down. He didn't bother using what he'd learned, making his mind "easy pickins" for Voldemort. Well, that's how it seems to me.

Solitaire


Ms Amanda - May 22, 2005 12:32 pm (#1779 of 2980)
Not to change subjects, but as Occlumency is not my current obsession...

I noticed, while rereading PoA today, that Snape is trying to poison Trevor. How many times does that happen? I can count at least two. One is after Neville messes up the shrinking potion in PoA, and another is in GoF while the class is making antidotes.

For what reason would Neville carry Trevor to Potions class? Why would Snape let him in? And why would he want to poison him? He seems very disappointed in PoA, taking five points from Gryffindor for Neville getting the shrinking potion right with Hermione's help.


Lina - May 22, 2005 1:42 pm (#1780 of 2980)
Edited May 22, 2005 2:43 pm
I am aware that I might get some dungbombs my way, and I have read OotP only once. But my opinion is that Harry did manage to close his mind - to Snape. Isn't it interesting that Snape never found out about DA during those Occlumency lessons? And when he came to Cho Chang (if I remember correctly), Harry manages to shut him out. How come that most (not all) of the memories that Snape meet in Harry's mind are about the corridor or about anything that concerns Voldemort? One reason I think that happens is because Harry wants Snape to explain him why is he seeing this corridor. The other thing is that I think that Harry could stop Voldemort's intruding by a wink of his eye, the way that he fought Imperious curse or the way that he stopped him at the MoM, If he thought, no, if he knew, how dangerous it was. But he was just too curious and too unaware of the danger to shut him off. The same way that he felt about Dementors. He felt bad, but at the same time, he felt wishing to hear the voices of his parents, and hopefully see their faces, even if those voices were mostly screams. At some moment, by seeing a corridor, he knew it was Voldemort, but he was too curious to see what was behind that door, and when he saw Sirius he didn't stop to think if it was real. And nobody told him anything, not even about a possibility of receiving fake visions, because they were instructed not to. And those instructions did not come from Snape, but from DD.


Solitaire - May 22, 2005 4:51 pm (#1781 of 2980)
Isn't it interesting that Snape never found out about DA

Do we know that Snape didn't find out about the DA? Given Snape's dislike of Umbridge, even if he did know--or suspect--about the DA, I'm not certain he (or any other staff member, for that matter) would have bothered to "bust" Harry and the kids.

There is also the fact that Snape was probably more interested in learning what Harry was "getting" from Voldemort--such as those dreams about the corridor and the door in the DoM--and was not necessarily interested in "poking around" for other things. Just speculation, of course ...

Solitaire


HungarianHorntail11 - May 22, 2005 4:54 pm (#1782 of 2980)
Edited May 22, 2005 5:55 pm
And nobody told him anything, not even about a possibility of receiving fake visions, because they were instructed not to.

Well, it wasn't an adult, but I thought Hermoine made it quite clear -Harry was just too blinded to listen.

I think Big V was on to Harry entering his mind after the Arthur attack because it was an emotional experience for Harry. I remember reading that DD states the connection seems to surface (usually via the scar pain) when one of the two is feeling a strong emotion. (At the time he meant when Big V was feeling murderous, or similar to that.) Up until the incident with Arthur, Big V never knew Harry was aware of his feelings because Harry never was emotional when he saw through Big V's perspective.

We are really not sure exactly what kind of connection Harry and Big V share (is there a part of him in Harry - how much and what is the essence of it?). It seems to lead to emotions. What if it is somewhat of an emotional connection, kind of like twins in the real world?

Whatever form it is in, once Big V discovered this connection, I think he worked on it (as someone stated) until he could use it to his benefit - typical Big V manner. I think Harry also has come a long way with this, albeit subconsciously, because he was able to continue probing when he was curious about something (i.e., Voldemort was happy, Harry later found out that it was because of the breakout). I also had another thought to back this up but was interrupted and lost it - bummer!

because they were instructed not to - Lina, is that canon, because I thought we just assumed that. Just wondering.

I think that the Occlumency lessons can help Harry in a manner that he has a base from which to start. In other words, he learns Occlumency and then modifies what he's learned to help him block out what he needs to, just as Big V's Legilimency talents allowed him to modify that talent to manipulate Harry. I think Snape is well versed when it comes to Big V and he could have done a bit more to make the Harry situation work. He just seems to go at this with the attitude of someone who is always left to do the foul work.


Gina R Snape - May 22, 2005 7:48 pm (#1783 of 2980)
Though we don't hear exact words from DD, it's made clear at several points in the book that DD did not want Harry to learn the full nature of the Order activities, about the prophesy, or about Harry's role in the bringing down of Voldemort.

I think the legilimency idea is an interesting one. Harry needs to be able to differentiate his own feelings from Voldemort's. He's able to do this some of the time, but not always. I've always suspected that at least a small part of Harry's general anger throughout OOTP is actually coming from Voldemort. Not entirely, mind you. But some portion enough to alter Harry's personality to a slight degree. Add to that Harry's dreams and other moments when he's channeling Voldemort and it creates a good case for Harry to learn to sever the connexion at will.

Mrs. Amanda, Snape uses Trevor as a motivator for Neville. I don't think he specifically allows Trevor into his classroom. Rather, Neville just brings the toad and Snape uses the situation to his advantage as needed. There probably isn't any school rule about bringing a pet toad into classrooms. Toads are one of few permissible pets on the Hogwarts grounds.


Ydnam96 - May 22, 2005 9:21 pm (#1784 of 2980)
Gina I think you are quite correct about Harry's feelings and anger being a side effect of his connection.

I also agree about Neville's toad. He probably keeps it with him because it is of some comfort to him. Ron has been known to carry the rat around in his pocket. Snape just uses trevor because he is mean. (sorry Gina).


Miriam Huber - May 22, 2005 10:18 pm (#1785 of 2980)
note on "Severus the lapdog":

What I find very intriguing is that it is Sirius who says that, so he knows about the Snape - Malfoy connection. Malfoy could only have been one year at school with the marauders (born 1954, Sirius 1960, Snape 1959 or 1960) so the Snape-Malfoy connection was surely established only afterwards (probably in Snapes DE-times). But how got Sirius to know about it? Snape surely never told him...


frogface - May 23, 2005 12:48 am (#1786 of 2980)
Edited May 23, 2005 1:50 am
Well Sirius is related to Narcissa, so its possible he learnt of the connection through his favourite cousin, Andromeda Tonks?


Ydnam96 - May 23, 2005 7:36 am (#1787 of 2980)
Well, the wizarding world is quite small, really a very tight knit (although not necessarily happy) closed community. In communities like that news, gossip, and the like travell very quickly. It is possible the rumor mill helped quite a bit.


Choices - May 23, 2005 8:01 am (#1788 of 2980)
It would be interesting to know in what way Snape is Lucius Malfoy's "lapdog". We think of a lapdog as being a small, pampered dog who sits in it's master lap and receives lots of loving attention.

So, how does that apply to Snape - what does it mean? Was Snape mentored by Lucius, perhaps in the DE's? All these questions - it's so frustrating!!


HungarianHorntail11 - May 23, 2005 9:36 am (#1789 of 2980)
Edited May 23, 2005 10:39 am
it creates a good case for Harry to learn to sever the connexion at will.

Gina, I agree with this wholeheartedly. He definitely needs to learn how to control this connection. I also don't think it would be a bad idea for him to learn how to manipulate this connection to his advantage. We know it's possible - as Big V did. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Edit, sorry: Choices, I feel as though there is a very strong link there between Lucius, Severus and Big V. The question is, what is it? Could this tie in with your theory regarding the Chamber? Things keep trying to head back in the direction of Hogwarts. What's down there and what does Snape know about Lucius?


Gina R Snape - May 23, 2005 10:56 am (#1790 of 2980)
Edited May 23, 2005 11:56 am
Choices: We think of a lapdog as being a small, pampered dog who sits in it's master lap and receives lots of loving attention.

Yes, but we can also think of a lapdog is one who is carried around by its master and does not have the freedom to do things on its own. I don't think the implication was one of pampering. Rather, Sirius was making the point that Snape is something of a slave to Lucius, at the beck-and-call at Lucius' pleasure, always under his eye and one who takes orders (sit, stay, fetch). Of course, this is hardly an insult when one considers that Snape is equally watching Lucius as a spy while Sirius is sitting around at GP wishing he were out doing something productive. But I think the point should be well taken that Snape is carefully watched, and this has an effect on his behaviour--not least of all his treatment of Draco and Harry.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 23, 2005 4:35 pm (#1791 of 2980)
Of course, this is hardly an insult when one considers that Snape is equally watching Lucius as a spy

Gina, I think you're surmising, as I don't remember reading anything with reference to such a statement. They could just be old buddies, kind of like Wormtail and Prongs.


Choices - May 23, 2005 4:45 pm (#1792 of 2980)
Edited May 23, 2005 5:48 pm
I have to agree with Gina - if indeed Snape is a spy for Dumbledore, you can bet he is keeping a close watch on Lucius Malfoy. The books may not come right out and say so, but then Sanpe is doing a lot of things it doesn't come right out and say so. That is what is so fascinating about Snape - we don't know much about what he is up to.... and we are all waiting to find out.


Ms Amanda - May 23, 2005 4:51 pm (#1793 of 2980)
Gina, I always thought the same thing, that Snape was trying to motivate Neville to do better by threatening to poison Trevor. However, Neville does not do better under pressure, and Snape realizes that. I can't see an intelligent person like Professor Snape trying the exact same motivator (death threat for Trevor) when at least once when it succeeded, Neville was still punished, although happily not with the death of his pet. And I still don't understand why Snape would allow the runaway toad to attend classes. No one else's pet is in potions class.


Gina R Snape - May 23, 2005 5:28 pm (#1794 of 2980)
Ms. Amanda, I don't doubt Snape feels a certain degree of pleasure in making Neville worry. But for every time he's used Neville as a tester, an antidote was close at hand. I think Snape is at a loss for what might work with Neville, short of extreme loving patience which I doubt Snape would harbour even for the likes of Draco. (Feel free to snigger and throw rotten tomatoes at will).

HungarianHorntail11, Snape does a lot of things we don't see, as Choices pointed out. But Snape did in fact say that it is "his job" to know what the Dark Lord is up to with his DEs. We know he's spying. The question on the table for some is, whose side is he on? Yes, they could be old acquaintances. But I'd hardly use the term buddies for one referenced as a lapdog. And there is a big enough age difference that they weren't friendly peers at Hogwarts. For how long, and how closely they know each other is definitely up to massive debate. But I also couldn't resist a Snape-like dig at Sirius in my comment, in case you didn't notice.

Aaaaaaaarrrrggghhhhh!!!!! Neeeeeed Book Six NOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!


Ms Amanda - May 23, 2005 7:12 pm (#1795 of 2980)
Gina, definitely sniggering at Snape trying to be loving and patient.

Putting aside my Trevor/ Neville moment, I'd like to say...

Even though Dumbledore has mistakenly put his faith in two turned professors (Quirrel and Crouch/Moody), I'm taking Dumbledore's word that Snape is on the Order's side. I have a hard time believing that he is an effective spy, now, however. I don't think he was being truthful with Harry when he said that was his job.


Chemyst - May 23, 2005 7:54 pm (#1796 of 2980)
Edited May 23, 2005 9:22 pm
from the encarta dictionary:
lapdog minion: somebody who is willing to say or do anything at another’s command, especially in an organization or institution

I've thought that Snape knows exactly how high up and important Lucius is in the DE organization, and as such, certainly would want to keep tabs on him. (Keeping enemies close and all.) In dealing with an ego like Lucius's, playing a lapdog role might be the safest thing for Severus. For example, Draco isn't too likely to suspect Crabbe or Goyle of betrayal, is he? No, Draco insults them and they still support him. Like father, like son I'd think. So when Sirius called Snape a lapdog, I figured Snape is willing to put up with being treated badly in order to get what he really wants.

(He seems to have had a lot of practice at being treated badly his entire life - until he met Gina.)


Weeny Owl - May 23, 2005 9:50 pm (#1797 of 2980)
Even though Dumbledore has mistakenly put his faith in two turned professors (Quirrel and Crouch/Moody), I'm taking Dumbledore's word that Snape is on the Order's side.

You know, out of all the speculation about whose side Snape is truly on, I have to say that if we're to believe that Dumbledore isn't a total senile fool, then having two professors who were Voldemort's minions is really enough for one series. Actually, throw in Lockhart, and that's three horrid professors allowed to teach, and while Dumbledore may have difficulty in getting competent Defense teachers, having Snape be a bad guy as well is really putting the willing suspension of disbelief to the test.


mischa fan - May 24, 2005 8:30 am (#1798 of 2980)
I think the only professor who fooled Dumbledore was Crouch Jr./Moodey. It is said the only reason he hired Lockheart was that he was the only one who wanted the Job. Quirrel was hired before he was with Voldemort. I think Dumbledore knew what was going on and waited, wanting Voldemort to tip his hand, and thinking that Harry might be able to defeat him once and for all, knowing the prophecy.

I do not think the Snape is loyal to the Order, as much as he is loyal to Dumbledore. I think that after Dumbledore dies then we will see Snape's true colors.


Ms Amanda - May 24, 2005 10:09 am (#1799 of 2980)
mischa fan, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you a bit. I do not believe that Dumbledore knew Voldemort was INSIDE Hogwarts with Harry. Even if Voldy was in a weakened form, Dumbledore would never have been led to leave the grounds (or to hang out as the Giant Squid).


Grindylow - May 24, 2005 10:15 am (#1800 of 2980)
I do hope Snape is loyal to the order. That is his one redeeming quality (sorry Gina)!! I would like to know what made him leave Voldy and the DE's. I don't believe I remember DD giving a REASON as to why he left them.....
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Samantha9587 - May 24, 2005 11:10 am (#1801 of 2980)
Hi everyone I'm new to the site but I just wanted to ask, why exactly does Lucius trust Snape?? I mean understood that Snape dearest was a former DE, but in the fourth book, when Voldemort makes his dramatic return to body and the death eaters arrive by his side, Snape does not. He does not return when Voldemort calls and that cannot possibly put him in good books with the other DE's. Personally i'm surprised he hasn't been killed yet by V's people...Snape possibly could have done something that not only gained back DD's trust but also made him realize that he was on the wrong side.


Grindylow - May 24, 2005 11:27 am (#1802 of 2980)
I had forgotten about that Samantha. What must Voldy and the DE's think unless they believe he is spying on the order for THEM!!!


Gina R Snape - May 24, 2005 1:22 pm (#1803 of 2980)
If you guys do a search, you will find a great deal of discussion on Snape going/not going to the DE party at the end of GoF, along with speculation on whether he was the one 'left forever' or 'the coward' or neither. My personal belief is that Snape did not go, and that he used the excuse that you cannot apparate/disapparate on the Hogwarts grounds. But I dare not elaborate further as this discussion has raged several times and at great length.

Have fun!


Weeny Owl - May 24, 2005 1:35 pm (#1804 of 2980)
think the only professor who fooled Dumbledore was Crouch Jr./Moodey. It is said the only reason he hired Lockheart was that he was the only one who wanted the Job. Quirrel was hired before he was with Voldemort.

Yes, but from a literary point of view, having two teachers be a bad guy's henchmen and a third being incompetent and willing to be a bad guy on his own seems a bit much. If you add in Umbridge and her actions, it seems way too much. Granted, Hogwarts has a lot more teachers than just those few, but we don't spend time with them, so they're not that important to the story, at least so far. But to add Snape to the list of main supporting characters who teach at Hogwarts and who are also bad guys in one way or another seems sloppy and JKR isn't sloppy.

But I dare not elaborate further as this discussion has raged several times and at great length.

<snorkle> That's a snort and a chuckle I'm sending your way, Gina! Those archived threads deal with all of that so in depth, I can't think there would be much to add.


far from prefect - May 24, 2005 1:38 pm (#1805 of 2980)
I think Snape must have told the DEs and LV that he is spying on DD and the Order; how else could he possibly be left alive? I think he is in a very dangerous position. I think, in looking at the entire series, that Snape is going to be in serious danger in Book 6. He has (apparently) been doing some spying for DD and Lord Thingy must have doubts about his loyalty. He has not yet had to pay the piper and I think that this particular piper insists on payment.

I am glad that JKR has said that Snape is a gift of a character because I take that to mean that she is not going to kill him off. But I think that Snape is going to be in mortal peril in Book 6 and maybe die in Book 7. What if he is in mortal peril and Harry saves him. Oh the agony! Almost makes me feel sorry for poor Severus. Almost.


Snuffles - May 24, 2005 1:50 pm (#1806 of 2980)
Lol far from prefect. I have wondered that before. Rather than Snape saving Harry at some point, what if Harry has to save Snape! First James saves his life then Harry. I think Snape would just spontaniously combust!!


HungarianHorntail11 - May 24, 2005 3:58 pm (#1807 of 2980)
Edited May 24, 2005 5:00 pm
Yes, they could be old acquaintances. But I'd hardly use the term buddies for one referenced as a lapdog.

Gina, I was also sending a dig (not maliciously) with the "buddy" comment about Prongs and Wormtail. I certainly wouldn't call what they had a model friendship.

What puzzles me is that Lucius seems to be quite selective with regard to whom he confides in (I am thinking of Draco offering to "guide" Harry in his selection of friends - the apple doesn't fall far from the tree), so what does he have going with Snape and why isn't he suspicious, esp. if Snape hasn't returned to Big V's circle?

Even if he uses the idea that he's spying for Big V as an excuse, he should still be able to steal away for some time here and there.

Wouldn't it make sense, then, that Snape has something they need that only he can help with? I don't know, too many holes in my thoughts.


Gina R Snape - May 24, 2005 5:00 pm (#1808 of 2980)
Well, it's a good question as to what Snape has to offer Lucius. Theoretically, he may see Snape as a lone ally inside Hogwarts castle to ensure the safety and superiority of his son. But if Lucius really wanted Draco to go to Durmstrang, one would think Snape has other things to offer. Information? Potions? Maybe Snape simply knows things about Lucius better left unknown? Probably a combination.


Choices - May 24, 2005 5:13 pm (#1809 of 2980)
Perhaps Lucius is the supposed go-between.....Snape passes "information" about Dumbledore, Harry and the Order to Lucius who then passes it on to Voldemort. Maybe that is the connection between Snape and Lucius. I am still curious about the "my slippery friend" comment by Voldemort to Lucius in the graveyard. Was that a compliment or a put-down?


TwinklingBlueEyes - May 24, 2005 6:52 pm (#1810 of 2980)
If Snape is at Hogwarts, as a spy, double agent, triple agent, as keeper of the Dark Lords secrete as to why he's still alive,whatever, I think it really doesn't matter, as long as Dumbledore trusts him. Some have made reference, just as the MOM has about some of Albus's questionable decisions, appointments, rule changes, etc. Bottom line remains is most of the WW trusts Dumbledore and his judgment. Snape is one area I really don't believe Dumbledore has made a major mistake in. Snape may be alot of things, but I think his loyalty to Dumbledore is one of the main threads of the plot. I think Gina is correct in her assessment of Snape's position as far as Malfoy is concerned.

As for how Snape may react and behave if Dumbledore was out of the way, that remains to be seen. I see him rising above awards such as the Order of Merlin to follow his loyalty to his mentor and to what is right...though he may have a spitting fit doing it :-)

...there was a point to this post, but I lost it...toddles off to find my butterbeer...


Samantha9587 - May 24, 2005 7:20 pm (#1811 of 2980)
Yea I would agree that Snape may very be the answers to alot of questions in the series. But if he IS playing double or triple agent I really don't see how he would pass it by two of the greatest wizards. Understood that he is quite gifted at Occlumency, but i don't really think even THAT could match Voldemort or DD. On the other hand I do agree that V may have his suspisions but Snape plays an essential and so Voldemort is almost forced to keep him alive (i think its been evident that once Voldemort is true with, you're usually as good as dead). DD must really truly have absolute faith if he's letting Snape in on the whereabouts of 12 Grimmauld Place...


TwinklingBlueEyes - May 24, 2005 7:30 pm (#1812 of 2980)
"I really don't see how he would pass it by two of the greatest wizards."

I think you have to remember that one of the greatest" wizards is very astute, and the other is, hmm, how to phrase this, the other "greatest" but lacks in other areas. Arrogance and the feeling of "power" has a tendency to over-ride common sense, patience, and logic. Logic is one thing that's been pointed out to us that most wizards don't have an abundance of... DD and Snape, in my opinion do happen to have.


Lina - May 25, 2005 2:17 am (#1813 of 2980)
In my opinion, Snape did not have much time between exiting the Hogwarts school and coming back to it as a teacher, to be a DE. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that that time was enough for Voldemort to become aware of the Snape's usefulness and knowledge and to use it. But one year that Snape and Lucius have been together at Hogwarts, and in the same house, and in the same common room, was enough for Lucius to find out the Dark Magic knowledge this young guy had. I think that he was interested in the knowledge that Snape had and I think that he had some knowledge to offer back to Snape and that he became a sort of his mentor to the Dark Magic. Even if they did not know each other before they came to Hogwarts, I think that this year was enough for them to develop a strong relationship. Not a friendship, perhaps, but joined enjoying in the Dark Arts. I suspect that Lucius has joined the DEs soon after exiting Hogwarts and remained in touch with Snape. It is not impossible that Snape did some work for DEs or Lucius or Voldemort while he was still at Hogwarts. Therefore that "lapdog" reference. Lucius was probably one of the rare people who wasn't bullying Snape because he found his Dark Arts knowledge much more important than his social ineptness and Snape might have talked high about him during the remaining 6 years. And Lucius might have become closer to Voldemort during those 6 years and pointed his interest towards Snape and his value for DEs. I hope I was articulate enough.

So, appart from using his knowledge, I think that Lucius expects Snape to put his son to the quiddich team and to provide a good education (some special knowledge) for him. It is not impossible that both, Lucius and Voldemort, expect Snape to work for them in Hogwarts the way he did it while he was a student. It is possible that Voldemort developed a doubt about Snape's loyalties while he was bodiless, especially during the year he was at Hogwarts with Quirrell but Lucius might have put a word for Snape here. And I think that the prophecy had a key role here. I don't think that Snape is the one who overheard the prophecy but I think that he told Voldemort that there was more to it than what he was told. And he did it right at the end of GoF.

JM2K


HungarianHorntail11 - May 25, 2005 8:19 am (#1814 of 2980)
Edited May 25, 2005 9:25 am
Those are some great thoughts, Lina. It would explain what Lucius has gotten out of this relationship, as he is self-serving. There is probably a bit more to it than you have explained but it is a darn good start. Still, it leaves us wondering whom Snape is loyal to? DD, although is usually correct, also lets negative things happen that we don't always understand (yet).

I do have an exception to the comment about Lucius putting in a good word for Snape. Taking into account that Big V doesn't give pardons very readily, I don't think Lucius would make the effort to do so for Snape. How could it possibly help Lucius in any way? If there is nothing in it for himself to gain, I just don't see him doing it.

I am wondering what role Snape's boggart and Patronus will play in the revelations about him. Have we seen his weakness, other than 'sticking his nose where it doesn't belong'? What good thought does he use (if he has one) for his Patronus?


Lina - May 25, 2005 9:46 am (#1815 of 2980)
Who is Snape loyal to? Well, I don't think that it would be possible for us (all members discussing Snape) to come to an agreement until JKR tells us the truth.

About Lucius putting a good word for Snape, I mentioned it as a possibility, but I do agree with you that it is not much probable.


mooncalf - May 25, 2005 10:55 am (#1816 of 2980)
Edited by May 25, 2005 12:00 pm
Lina, those were some really ideas. Lucius is charming, clever, cunning, manipulative, and a master at using people. He was probably also very popular at school.

Snape, on the other hand, was lonely, vindictive, full of bitterness and socially hopeless.

I can easily see rich and popular upper-classman Lucius getting greasy little Severus to do whatever he wanted. Lucius is very good at persuading people; and angry, disaffected teenagers, such as Snape was, are ripe for being recruited to all sorts of horrible things.

I think it's likely that Lucius got Snape to join the Death Eaters. He would have been a perfect lapdog. And, as Snape matured, he must have not only grown to hate what he was doing, but also would have realized how Lucius had used him.

Ooh, that would make him mad!


HungarianHorntail11 - May 25, 2005 11:54 am (#1817 of 2980)
but also would have realized how Lucius had used him.

Vindication on Snape's part would certainly offer a good motive to work against Big V. and Lucius, yet keep his affinity for the Dark Arts intact.

It would also explain why DD trusts him (revenge is a powerful motivator), yet still seems to have a distaste for him. We know Snape likes to get revenge on people, consider Sirius and Lupin in the shrieking shack and also the Quirrell incident, " . . .you don't want me as your enemy . . ."

Good call, Lina and Mooncalf.

Choices, could you possibly post the location of the "my slippery friend" quote?


Steve Newton - May 25, 2005 12:05 pm (#1818 of 2980)
I think that the 'slippery friend' speech is in the graveyard in GOF. I'll check later.


Netherlandic - May 25, 2005 12:13 pm (#1819 of 2980)
Perhaps Lucius doesn't know that Snape has been a DE, as not al the DE's know each other to be a DE. I remember a quote that only Voldemort "knew all the names".


Weeny Owl - May 25, 2005 1:20 pm (#1820 of 2980)
You're right, Steve, it's in the graveyard after the Death Eaters show up. It's when he's giving his speech about no one coming to look for him.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 25, 2005 2:26 pm (#1821 of 2980)
Thanks, all! I found it. Hmmm . . . it seems to me as though he's making sort of a 'you've gotten out of another one unscathed' type of comment. And he does get away w/o punishment from Big V.


Steve Newton - May 25, 2005 2:33 pm (#1822 of 2980)
I do see the comment as a threat. Voldemort is watching him.


Ponine - May 25, 2005 6:27 pm (#1823 of 2980)
Hungarian Horntail said: DD...yet still seems to have a distaste for him (Snape) - I don't think DD has a distaste for him, I think he treats him respectfully and kindly, but yet with a professional distance he seems to keep with all his staff.

I really liked many of your ideas, Lina, but I have a hard time seeing how little Snape would be drawn to Lucius. It is easier to see how he would resent him and shy away from him, even if he was perhaps jealous of the attention and power he may have had...

You know, I was reading PS (again) and all of a sudden, I got this image of Severus sitting, slouching over a table, tongue sticking out of the corner of his mouth, trying to make rhymes for his potions riddle.... Is there something we really do not know about him (Bezoars are red and pixies are blue, the AK is green, and gone are you), or does someone write his poetry for him?


Chemyst - May 25, 2005 11:14 pm (#1824 of 2980)
...but I have a hard time seeing how little Snape would be drawn to Lucius. - Ponine

I don't think Snape would have been drawn to Lucius at first. It would have been the other way around. I'm not aware of any canon that says Lucius was a prefect, but it's quite possible, and in any case it is likely that he was a leader among Slytherin. We are told that when Snape first came to Hogwarts, he knew more dark curses than most of the seventh years. That would get Snape noticed by the upper classmen, especially if Lucius had been a prefect in charge of watching the first years. Lucius, ever the opportunist, would certainly have been impressed by young Snape's dark talent. So Lucius would first be drawn to Snape for the purpose of making him his lapdog. Snape would then be drawn to Lucius as a reaction to having received attention from one of the cool older kids in his house.

Snape & Lucius would have developed, not a true friendship, but a symbiotic or mutually beneficial relationship. I can see them being drawn to each other in this manner.

This is just speculation, but it flows rather nicely: By the time we get a glimpse of Snape's memories, Lucius would have graduated, and without the elder Malfoy around, Severus then became a very tempting mark for James & Sirius. Within a year or so, when Voldemort was looking for capable young recruits and Severus is looking for a job, Lucius would have been already in place as a DE to recommend Snape. And Snape who wants to get as far away from James & Sirius as possible, becomes easy pickings.


Choices - May 26, 2005 11:09 am (#1825 of 2980)
Chemyst - That is definitely a scenario I could see happening.


Gina R Snape - May 26, 2005 11:55 am (#1826 of 2980)
Yes, I agree. Chemyst, you've laid out a completely plausible scenario. I hope we find out what actually happened in . . . 50 days.


Lina - May 26, 2005 1:03 pm (#1827 of 2980)
Chemyst, you described my thoughts quite clearly, except, I imagined Lucius to be a Headboy...

HungarianHorntail11, I can't imagine DD to approve or relay on revenge. There must be something else, too.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 26, 2005 2:44 pm (#1828 of 2980)
Edited May 26, 2005 3:47 pm
Lina,

I don't know if I'd say it's an approval. Sometimes, when you need someone's help, you take it in almost any form, even if it's begrudgingly for the better of the whole. Snape did seem to have to prove himself first to DD (I am thinking of the pensieve where DD speaks up for him, saying he helped at great risk to himself). I also couldn't have imagined DD allowing Harry to wander around in an invisibility cloak (that could only lead to trouble and trouble it did!). But I hope there is more to it, as you stated. I'd hate to think he's so desperate for help with the Order that he is accepting of people who are only in it for their own satisfaction - that seems to go against the design of the Order. If that's not the case, then maybe Snape is all that you said and not bad, just mean. (Sorry, had to throw that in!)

Someone asked on another thread what the little bit from PoA gave JKR a goosebump moment - I suggested that it was the fact that he stepped in front of the students when Lupin went loopy in the full moon. I thought that was an awful big contrast to the person we read about in the books, but it wasn't clipped from the movie. (Come to think of it, I haven't checked. I am probably getting blasted as I type this!)


Gina R Snape - May 26, 2005 6:33 pm (#1829 of 2980)
Ok, I don't have my book with me, but I think I remember the scene fairly well. In the book, Snape is blasted by the trio, bangs against the wall and slumps to the floor. When he comes to, Peter has escaped and Harry is throwing off the dementor by the lake. Snape does not see Harry, but he does see the patronus. He creates stretchers to float the kids back to Hogwarts and to the infirmary. He does not defend the kids from Werewolf!Lupin.


Ms Amanda - May 26, 2005 6:38 pm (#1830 of 2980)
I didn't think Professor Snape saw the patronus; he actually admits that he doesn't know what drives the dementors off.

Actually, the scene in the book is much more interesting than the movie and leaves me with lots of questions.

How long has he been standing in the room with the Invisibility Cloak on, though? How much can he hear and still not believe that Sirius is innocent? More importantly, how much can he hear and believe that Lupin is helping Sirius into the castle?

Why does Professor Snape say that he thinks HRH are under a Confundus spell? Wouldn't it be better to just say they attack him, and get them all expelled!


Gina R Snape - May 26, 2005 7:41 pm (#1831 of 2980)
Why does Professor Snape say that he thinks HRH are under a Confundus spell? Wouldn't it be better to just say they attack him, and get them all expelled!

Ms Amanda, thanks for bringing that up! It's, in my mind, another proof that he was looking out for the welfare of the children even as he exercised his hatred for Sirius Black.


mooncalf - May 26, 2005 7:55 pm (#1832 of 2980)
Or maybe it's just a sign that he hates Sirius more than he hates Harry. He never gets quite so angry as he does when he realizes that Sirius has escaped.


Lina - May 26, 2005 11:44 pm (#1833 of 2980)
Maybe he wouldn't like to admit that he was overpowered by a bunch of kids! Just the way that Hermione rather said that she was infringing the rules and trying to beat the troll than that she was crying in the toilet because she was hurt by something Ron said.

And HungarianHorntail11, I just think that nobody could relay on revenge, you can never be sure when the person who wanted a revenge would want to revenge somebody else. So, if DD knew about Snape's wish to revenge, I guess he would try to talk him off. There must be something else that makes DD so sure that Snape will not switch sides AND I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT IS!!!!???!!


HungarianHorntail11 - May 27, 2005 4:41 am (#1834 of 2980)
Edited May 27, 2005 5:45 am
Gina sorry,I should have been more clear (the price I pay for trying to be brief with my posts). The other thread I was referring to was <IB>Clues in the Movies about What's Coming in Books 6 & 7 </IB>, so the goosebumps moment was in PoA the movie that Alfonso put in without JKR's input and it was so fitting that it gave her goosebumps.

Lina, maybe DD didn't know Snape's intentions of vindication and "tested" him to insure that his loyalties were, indeed in the right direction just out of instinct.

Easy now, Book Six will come soon enough. Then we can all suffer waiting for Book Seven!


Not So Headless Nikki - May 27, 2005 5:47 am (#1835 of 2980)
I know this first part isn't technically a Snape thread, but it leads into it. I too thought that the part about Snape jumping in front of the kids would have given JKR goosebumps. I certainly thought it was out of character for Snape (and again, it wasn't like the scene in the book.)

I think that in one of the future books, Snape's loyalty will be tested by LV. And the way he will do that is by making Snape choose whether or not to save Harry (or some other part of the trio). For example, LV will threaten to kill Snape or make Snape kill them in front of LV, and if Snape refuses then LV will kill Snape. So I think that scene foreshadows a future conflict with LV that Snape will have to show his "true colors" regarding whose side he is really on. I.E. That even though he dislikes Harry he is indebted to him because Harry's father saved Snape. So at some point I think we will see Snape having to return that debt, most likely with his own life.


applepie - May 27, 2005 5:52 am (#1836 of 2980)
Very interesting Nikki. I think you might be on to something. I personally like Snape (maybe because of my association with him and Alan Rickman...)but that is an excellent theory. Imagine the guilt that Harry will feel after loathing him for such a time if he were to die to save Harry...


Gina R Snape - May 27, 2005 5:56 am (#1837 of 2980)
Edited May 27, 2005 6:59 am
HungarianHorntail11, I know you were referring to the film. But I thought you had wanted to know by comparison what happened in the book.

If Lord Voldemort tests Snape's loyalties, do you think we will be witness to this scene? I have a feeling he is tested all the time, in a manner of speaking. But I just don't see us getting to see such an interaction unless Harry is there in Voldemort's head. But boy would Snape be furious if he knew Harry saw him at Voldemort's mercy!

Also, I think Snape continues to repay his life debt to James all the time. My impression is he is frequently and actively putting his life on the line just by being in his position. I wonder, though, if JKR will have such a dramatic act as throwing himself at a metaphorical bullet to save Harry's life. As much as I love Snape, I don't want to see him die in that way. I'd rather he do something else clever with his typical sleight of hand that makes some stand back and scratch their heads while the rest of us nod along knowingly.


Lina - May 27, 2005 7:18 am (#1838 of 2980)
I know I'm breaking the current discussion (feel free to ignore me) but I was just watching a tv program on oysters. Somehow they reminded me Snape - living in a shell. Gina, you will like this: look at oysters, how ugly they seem, yet keeping a pearl inside. But what I find most interesting, the person who is cultivating them said: "One thing I found out about oysters: you have to be very careful with the animal in a shell!" That's the best way of describing Snape in my opinion, and if he were an animagus, he might very well be an oyster (producing pearls that he might use in his potions). Since JKR says that the Patronus form of Snape would be revealing too much, I guess his Patronus is not an oyster, because it would not be revealing more than we already know, that he is well closed in his shell.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 27, 2005 8:40 am (#1839 of 2980)
I hope there's something nice inside, Lina. The world can always use some more nice.

I just had a strange thought:

Severus, Lucius Sirius, Lupin

Kinda like some bizarro world from a Seinfeld episode.

HH11


Weeny Owl - May 27, 2005 10:33 am (#1840 of 2980)
Edited May 27, 2005 11:41 am
I don't want to see Snape die, but if he has to die saving someone, I don't want it to be Harry. That would seem way too cliched to me. If he had to die saving someone, it should be a Muggle-born, which would prove once and for all that he truly regretted calling Lily a Mudblood. Now, saving Hermione would be wonderful after the comments he's made to her, but the more I think about it, the more I think it'd be hilarious for him to save Colin and/or Dennis Creevey. Poor Snape.


far from prefect - May 27, 2005 10:52 am (#1841 of 2980)
Or Neville.

Surprised)


Weeny Owl - May 27, 2005 11:18 am (#1842 of 2980)
Neville would be interesting, but he is a pureblood, so the dynamics aren't quite the same... still an annoyance, of course.


frogface - May 27, 2005 12:40 pm (#1843 of 2980)
How about Lupin? A half-blood, a werewolf and we all know how much Snape dis-likes him.


Not So Headless Nikki - May 27, 2005 1:30 pm (#1844 of 2980)
Lina, I don't know how well an oyster would work as a Patronus. Seems like everyone else's Patronus is an animal that can move, at least faster than an oyster. I still like the comparison though.

It would be very interesting to have Snape die saving Lupin. But I think it would show more to LV to have him choose between saving himself or Harry.


Kratze - May 27, 2005 3:10 pm (#1845 of 2980)
Edited May 27, 2005 4:10 pm
Lina, your oyster metaphor is wonderful. Snape comes packaged 'ugly' in the books (by this I mean that JKR has gone through quite a lot of effort to make him appear unpleasant, both in his greasy hair and yellow teeth and in his silkily cruel mannerisms) but in the package lies something genuinely powerful. And loyal and brave, if not always nice. I just love how JKR has masterfully balanced his good and his bad through progressively more complex situations.

Slightly off the subject, Snape is exceedingly good at magic, but I would also have no trouble imagining the guy breezing through high-level math and chemistry courses in the muggle world. I suspect that capability of both linear and 'magical' thinking in one person is rare in the wizarding world, and this might be one of the things Dumbledore values in him.

"Since JKR says that the Patronus form of Snape would be revealing too much, I guess his Patronus is not an oyster, because it would not be revealing more than we already know, that he is well closed in his shell."

If he has one, I'm guessing a spider. JKR describes him as spiderlike in the OP worst memory sequence, plus she uses spiders constantly in the books, and, more whimsically, Ron is terrified of spiders and I have this image of the poor kid being traumatized by Snape's patronus! Seriously, though, the Sphinx's riddle to Harry in GF melded the word "Spy" into "Spider" and that made me wonder...


HungarianHorntail11 - May 27, 2005 3:58 pm (#1846 of 2980)
Edited May 27, 2005 5:04 pm
I really like the idea of Snape's patronus being a spider. Good catch on that part in GoF - it sure seems to fit.


Not So Headless Nikki - May 27, 2005 4:10 pm (#1847 of 2980)
A spider? That is a very interesting thought! I like it. It would seem that since he is such a "dark" character that his Patronus would be equally as sinister. I mean, I can't imagine Snape with a swan like Cho or an otter, can you? Maybe his Patronus is a bat. People are always saying that Snape is a vampire. This really has me stumped. Any other thoughts on what his Patronus might be?


HungarianHorntail11 - May 27, 2005 5:07 pm (#1848 of 2980)
I am still wondering what his boggart is. What does he fear?


Choices - May 27, 2005 5:10 pm (#1849 of 2980)
Edited May 27, 2005 6:10 pm
Deep down.....his fears might just overwhelm a poor boggart. It might switch from one fear to another so fast it would get whiplash.


Not So Headless Nikki - May 27, 2005 6:01 pm (#1850 of 2980)
I think his boggart might be his father. Or maybe some cute little fluffy kittens sleeping peacefully in a bed of roses under a cloudless sky... Razz
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frogface - May 28, 2005 12:39 am (#1851 of 2980)
LOL! I like the idea of his boggart turning into his father. I considered briefly that it might turn into James or Sirius but I'm not so sure about that, his father would be far more interesting. As for his Patronus, something that disguises itself? A chameleon? Ahhh I just don't know! It is quite early...


HungarianHorntail11 - May 28, 2005 5:09 am (#1852 of 2980)
Well, it has to be something that is too revealing for JKR to have saved it for so late (do we know for sure that we'll find out in HBP?). The father boggart is a good idea, since it's the only glimpse we've seen into his past that would make sense. I guess it wouldn't be James!


Ydnam96 - May 28, 2005 8:49 am (#1853 of 2980)
Maybe his Boggart is DD or VM or both? Wonder if the Boggart would just change back and forth. It would certainly be interesting.

Or maybe his boggart is just him sitting in an empty room with no one.

I have a hard time imagining that Snape could come up with a Patronus. I know that it's a very stereotypical thing to say, but how many super happy memories can he have?


HungarianHorntail11 - May 28, 2005 8:59 am (#1854 of 2980)
Maybe his boggart is his stopper-in-death potion. A large corked bottle comes after him in his dreams.


Not So Headless Nikki - May 28, 2005 11:38 am (#1855 of 2980)
Ydnam96: in regards to him not being able to produce a Patronus because of his lack of happy memories--that is a very plausible thought. But think of some of the thoughts that Harry has used to produce a Patonus, specifically the one about Umbridge being sacked. Given that line of thinking, I'm sure if he thought of Harry or James or Sirius being publically humliated would most likely cause him enough joy to be able to produce one.

Also there is sentence on pg. 518 of Ootp that describes Snape as being "waspish" and that got me to thinking that perhaps his Patronus is a wasp.


Lina - May 28, 2005 11:52 am (#1856 of 2980)
Just one add to several great ideas about his boggart: maybe it is a crowd that is loving him, not just glorifying him, but actually loving...


Choices - May 28, 2005 12:26 pm (#1857 of 2980)
Oh, I really like the idea of his Patronus being a wasp - he certainly has made enough "stinging" comments to people for that to fit perfectly.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 28, 2005 12:36 pm (#1858 of 2980)
Edited May 28, 2005 1:36 pm
I saw that, too NSHN! Yes, he does give quite a sting!


Ponine - May 28, 2005 2:19 pm (#1859 of 2980)
Ydnam - I have a hard time imagining that Snape could come up with a Patronus. I know that it's a very stereotypical thing to say, but how many super happy memories can he have?

Mandy - I thought this was an excellent idea, and a completely heartbreaking one. You have to keep in mind that Harry is only able to conjure his patronuses because of his friends and the joy they have given him (If I am not mistaken..), and to think that poor Severus has never even had that is pretty devastating. And while I KNOW the whole pity/feel sorry/empathize//cruel/abusive/nasty, but still - if any person's life is completely void of close relationships of any kind, I do feel sorry for them... Ahem. All that being said, I wonder if JKR would consider Snape's lack of a boggart would be too endearing of a quality for him, if you know what I mean? Although I think the idea would be something worthy of JKR, for sure. As fas as Snape's boggart is concerned, I still think it is an extremely disappointed Dumbledore, and that his is the only opinion that really matters to him.

I am on my umteenth reread of the series, and all of a sudden I noticed something that I don't really understand - Filch helping Snape with bandages for his wound, clearly sustained from Fluffy... How close are those two, and why would Snape trust Filch? Is there something I am not picking up on again?


mooncalf - May 28, 2005 3:08 pm (#1860 of 2980)
Well, Filch was pretty quick to suck up to Umbridge. Maybe he's willing to help anybody who treats students badly.


Gina R Snape - May 28, 2005 3:09 pm (#1861 of 2980)
There was a wasp in the room when Harry took an OWL exam. I am convinced it was one of the wizards at Hogwarts or in the Order. It would be a real kicker if it turned out to be Snape watching over him.

I think Snape didn't want to draw attention to himself, so he asked Filch to help instead of going to the infirmary where sick children might have been around to see and gossip.


Choices - May 28, 2005 5:36 pm (#1862 of 2980)
I think Snape just doesn't like to ask for help. He prefers to be bandaged muggle style by Filch rather than going to Madame Pomfrey for magical healing. He feels more comfortable having Filch around because as a Squib, Filch is more non-threatening, and also because Filch is something of a terriorist like Snape himself.


Chemyst - May 28, 2005 6:08 pm (#1863 of 2980)
Edited May 28, 2005 7:13 pm
Just one add to several great ideas about his boggart: maybe it is a crowd that is loving him, not just glorifying him, but actually loving... - Lina
That thought is downright chilling!

There was a wasp in the room when Harry took an OWL exam. I am convinced it was one of the wizards at Hogwarts or in the Order. - Gina

Oh, you made me look!
"There was a wasp buzzing distractingly against one of the high windows." OP 31
This was at the beginning of the History of Magic exam that Harry was unable to finish after dozing into a vision of the Department of Mysteries.

If Snape had wanted to spy because of the academics & grades, it seems he'd have done it during the potions exam. So if this wasp was anything other than a common wasp, it would be there either because 1. The history exam lends itself to sleepiness and therefore Harry's suggestibility, or 2. It was the timing that was important. Either way, that is rather interesting.


Gina R Snape - May 28, 2005 10:09 pm (#1864 of 2980)
Ha ha. Made you look!

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Yes, it is highly unlikely to have been Snape. I've been thinking myabe Dumbledore, but I'm not 100% sold on that idea.


Miriam Huber - May 29, 2005 1:20 am (#1865 of 2980)
Or sometimes a wasp is only a wasp - even in HP (I know, I know, with that attitude this forum wouldn´t contain thousands of posts...)


Netherlandic - May 30, 2005 12:39 pm (#1866 of 2980)
Why not combine several theories on several treads (on Severus!) and propose that Snape has a son (Blaise Zabini?) by a Muggle lady and this son is the HBP... any thoughts?


Choices - May 30, 2005 12:52 pm (#1867 of 2980)
Since these are books that are read by children, Snape better be married to that muggle lady. I don't think JKR would condone anything shady going on. LOL


Choices - May 30, 2005 1:09 pm (#1868 of 2980)
Edited May 30, 2005 2:11 pm
"Laugh if you will Mr. Finnigan...."

That's true. There are lots of things that go on in this world that JKR chooses not to include in her story. We have yet to see any unmarried couples procreating or living together in Harry Potter books and I just don't think she is going to include any of that at this late date.


HungarianHorntail11 - May 31, 2005 5:07 am (#1869 of 2980)
I was on the DD thread and thought of something. What if Snape's boggart is dead DD? After all, Hogwarts seems to be his home and he goes to great lengths to please DD. Is that too convenient?


Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 1, 2005 5:41 am (#1870 of 2980)
Hungarian Horntail I like your theory about Snape's boggart. I hope that JKR reveals it to us in the next book.

As far as Snape being a wasp, I think we got that from the comment about Snape being described as "waspish" during his fight with Sirius at Grimmauld Place. And then with the wasp that was buzzing in the corner during the OWLS. I guess I don't think that Snape is animagus, but I do think that it's possible that his Patronus is a wasp, or a tarantula spider (they look really scary and gross, but they are essentially harmless). And I do think that Snape is fully capable of producing a Patronus given that you don't have to think of something super happy in order to produce one. Again, I hope we find out in book 6!!


Gina R Snape - Jun 1, 2005 7:16 am (#1871 of 2980)
Hey, everyone.

Well, per Mare's suggestion, I am posting my defence of Snape for the Accio conference trial here. Enjoy.

Accio Grand Jury Statement in Defence of Severus Snape By Mrs. Gina R Snape

Dear ladies and gentlemen of the jury,

I hereby submit this statement in defence of my husband, Severus Snape. I shall address each charge as directed. I thank you for considering my testimonial. I would like to start by pointing out that it is easy to pick on Severus Snape. He’s been variously described as an “overgrown bat” who “seems the type” to want to kill (PS, p. 208). With his greasy hair, sallow complexion and hooked nose, he does not possess the kind of conventional good looks which often sway people who judge by appearance alone and according to mainstream tastes. His penchant for sarcasm further alienates him from those lacking the predisposition for appreciating his wit. These characteristics are not, however, crimes. Severus is persistently picked on and unceremoniously reviled by his detractors, who do not give him credit where credit is due. I therefore beg of you to judge Severus Snape solely upon his actions as they measure up to wizarding laws as defined in the five Harry Potter novels to date, and not on the looks and personality which some find displeasing. My husband may not seem a nice man, but I dare say he is a good and brave man.

Charge #1: That the accused did, feloniously, treasonously and with malice aforethought, combine with others to support the most bloody, abominable and beastly cause of the notorious, prescribed and avowed traitor Tom Marvolo Riddle, sometime called Lord Voldemort.


and

Charge #2: That the accused did, feloniously, treasonously and with malice aforethought, voluntarily accept membership within a prescribed and illegal organization, vulgarly termed "the Death Eaters";

I submit that Severus Snape did combine with others in his youth to support the Dark Lord Voldemort for reasons known only to him, as can be evidenced by the dark mark brandished upon his arm. However, as there is no evidence that merely combining with others in support of Lord Voldemort is an act of treason, this cannot serve as a valid criminal offense, treasonous or otherwise. I give by way of example two trials in GoF, chapter “The Pensieve.” Firstly, Ludo Bagman was brought to the council to answer charges “relating to the activities of the Death Eaters” (p. 514). Secondly, Bellatrix LeStrange, et al. were brought before the Council of Magical Law accused of “capturing an Auror—Frank Longbottom—and subjecting him to the Cruciatus curse…[and further] accused of using the Cruciatus curse on Frank Longbottom’s wife.” (p. 516-517). In both cases, although the Ministry sought to track down all of Voldemort’s supporters, in a court of law the death eaters (or accused) were prosecuted for specific crimes of activity. There was no charge against them for serving the Dark Lord or declaring allegiance to him. The charges were about the crimes they committed for the Dark Lord not for loyalty to the Dark Lord himself. Since they were not charged with joining the Death Eaters, nor should Snape be charged as it is not a documented criminal offense.

Further, I submit there is no proof of malice aforethought in why the young Severus combined with them. While Severus’ childhood enemy Sirius Black stated, “Snape’s always been fascinated by the Dark Arts” (GoF, chapter Padfoot Returns, p.460-461), there is never any indication that his interest is more than academic. Severus Snape has never been seen using dark magic in the entire series to date.

We further learned from Sirius Black that Snape was “part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters” (p. 461). We may infer from this that an element of peer pressure and/or protection from others may have been at play, and thus Severus Snape’s membership with the Death Eaters may not have been entirely voluntary. Snape’s childhood is one marked by traumatic events which predispose children to give into peer pressure. If we may presume that Harry saw Snape’s on memories via legilimency, we know young Severus witnessed domestic violence (OOTP, Chapter Occlumency) “a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner” (p 521); fell victim at school to peer ridicule: “a girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick” p. 522); and was so accustomed to peer abuse that when mockingly referred to as “Snivellus” by James Potter he “reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack.” (OOTP, Chapter ‘Snape’s Worst Memory, p. 569). He may have been seeking protection and a sense of belonging and respect, as many young urban muggle boys do when they join a gang. But I retain that, in the absence of words directly from his mouth, no one in this court can positively attest that he voluntarily joined with the express purpose of malice.

Charge #3: That the accused, feloniously, treasonously and with malice aforethought, continues as a member in the said illegal organization.

In GoF, Chapter ‘The Pensieve’ p. 513, Albus Dumbledore states he has “given evidence already on this matter…Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort’s downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am.” Severus Snape should not be made to stand trial for said non-crimes. He should be heroically lauded for putting himself at great personal risk in leaving the Death Eaters! Dumbledore spoke on his behalf, and in the absence of further evidence, these first three charges are nothing more than an act of malicious cauldron-stirring rumour-mongering and an attempt at double jeopardy (trying someone twice for the same crime—or in this case pseudo-crime), which at the very least is not allowable in British muggle law.

Further proof can be found in Severus Snape’s actions specifically in the protection of Harry Potter. Snape does something to save Harry Potter in every book thus far. Of the many examples available, in the interest of brevity I offer four proofs of his allegiance to Dumbledore and his interest in protecting Harry and preparing him for battle against the Dark Lord Voldemort:

1. In The Philosopher’s Stone, Quirrell informs Harry that Snape had been “muttering a counter-curse, trying to save [him]” during a quidditch match (p. 208).
2. He also volunteered to referee the following quidditch match in order to provide more active supervision of Harry’s safety (p. 208)
3. In the Chamber of Secrets, he makes a point of teaching Expelliarmus (chapter The Duelling Club, p. 142), which directly serves to assist in saving Harry Potter’s life in GoF (chapter Priori Incantatum, p. 575) as Harry explained in a DA meeting (OOTP, Chapter Dumbledore’s Army, p. 348). Snape may not have been aware of the particular circumstances to come, but he knew enough about battle to be sure Harry was prepared with this vital defensive spell.
4. In Goblet of Fire, Chapter Veritaserum, Snape appears steadily and persistently in the Foe Glass of Barty Crouch Jr., proof that a magical item found him in alliance with Albus Dumbledore and Minerva McGonagall (p. 589 and 593).

(cont'd)


Gina R Snape - Jun 1, 2005 7:16 am (#1872 of 2980)
Charge #4: That the accused has on divers occasions and under the guise of lawful chastisement committed assault and battery on minors in respect of whom he was in loco parentis, such assault and battery being occasioned by divers magical and physical means, and resulting in perceptible physical and psychological harm to the said minors.

Assault and battery is a heavy charge, and is defined by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] as “a threat to attack someone followed by a violent physical act.” I think you will find, however, that while Severus Snape has on some occasions used an intimidating suggestion to motivate the children, he has never actually committing a violent physical act. In fact, on one occasion he prevented the physical harm of one Neville Longbottom at the hands of the Slytherin boy Crabbe by instructing him to loosen his hold (OOP, Chapter ‘Out of the Fire’ p. 657).

Nor has he used magic to inflict perceptible physical or psychological harm. In every instance of so-called threat, Snape employs a teaching tool to motivate the children to do better in their schoolwork. For example, in PoA, Chapter ‘The Boggart in the Wardrobe’ Snape teaches the children to brew a shrinking potion. To motivate Neville, he threatens to give some of Neville’s potion to his toad Trevor. But Snape had an antidote handy to restore Trevor once he turned into a tadpole (p. 97).

However, the one time Snape does resort to laying a hand on a student was after Harry grossly violated his privacy by watching a memory left in Snape’s pensieve (OOTP, Chapter ‘Snape’s Worst Memory’). Even then, we can see that Snape was not out to hurt Harry so much as prevent himself from doing real harm to Harry. When Snape pulled Harry out of the pensieve, he is furious. He grabs him by the arms but “[throws] Harry from him with all his might.” He does not throw him against a wall, or beat him up. He tosses him away from himself warningly and orders him to leave and say nothing. He then throws a jar of dead cockroaches against the wall above Harry’s head out of frustration, when he easily could have thrown the jar directly at Harry. (p. 572). Now, some may say this was an act of abuse. But I argue it is not. For one thing, wizarding children seem more capable of avoiding injury during situations in which muggle children would receive considerable harm. Harry has fallen off his broom from great heights. Neville was held out a window by his uncle and survived an ‘accidental’ dropping. A mere tossing would never inflict real and lasting harm.

Nonetheless, the sine qua non of proof when someone intends physical harm to Harry is the shock sensation they feel as a result of the magical protection placed upon Harry by his mother at her death. Quirrel feels it when he grabs Harry at the end of PS (p. 213). Vernon Dursley feels it when he takes hold of Harry in the first chapter of OOTP and tries to choke him (p. 10). Snape never receives this electric shock, so we can conclude that his roughness was intended solely to remove Potter from the pensieve and from his office.

In accordance with the rules set forth by the committee, I have sought to keep my explanations under 500 words per accusation. Brief though I feel they are, I hope they will provide enough supporting evidence to dismiss all charges (and accusations without criminal charge), and am available for further clarification as needed.

I once again thank you for your time in hearing my testimony.

Sincerely, Gina R. Snape


Finn BV - Jun 1, 2005 7:53 am (#1873 of 2980)
Gina, that's fantastic! Your evidence is really convincing (especially the point against Charge #3) and I think some of the stuff you should bring to the Death Eaters thread; we've been talking about is it a crime to be a DE or just relate to the activities. Good luck, to you and everybody else participating. I'm afraid that being able to go at 12 is not the greatest chance but I look forward to hearing all about it.


Gina R Snape - Jun 1, 2005 8:14 am (#1874 of 2980)
Aaawww, thanks fbv807! Yes, Accio is for adults only. But you can be sure we'll be bringing back reports.

I started a question on Wizarding Law, didn't know it followed over to the DE thread. I will definitely have to take a look, and maybe steer people over this way while I'm at it.


Knight - Jun 1, 2005 8:20 am (#1875 of 2980)
Wow, this is really good did you ever considered to become a lawyer? I for one sure wouldn't mind having you as my lawyer if i would ever need one. I think that Snape will play some crucial part i the next book and will end up saving Harry and his friends, and that he will turn out to be the (new) guardian of Harry. Greets, Knight


Eponine - Jun 1, 2005 8:52 am (#1876 of 2980)
Bravo, Gina. Very well done. You've done a wonderful job of defending Severus from such malicious charges.


applepie - Jun 1, 2005 8:54 am (#1877 of 2980)
Bravo, indeed. I can see Snape now striding confidently down the halls of the castle with his robes billowing behind him.


Weeny Owl - Jun 1, 2005 9:35 am (#1878 of 2980)
Oh, that is absolutely fantastic, Gina!

I do think it should be brought to everyone's attention, though, that Dumbledore said Snape "rejoined our side." To rejoin something means you have to have joined it in the first place. I think that adds to Snape's integrity.

After your strenuous defense, I do hope your hubby takes you out for a nice dinner and some dancing.


GryffEndora - Jun 1, 2005 10:09 am (#1879 of 2980)
Way to go Gina! That is excellent! I think you have done yourself and Severus proud. I hope you are victorious. I can't wait for all the details.


Elanor - Jun 1, 2005 11:00 am (#1880 of 2980)
Edited Jun 1, 2005 12:01 pm
Bravo Gina! That is really great and I'm certain your defence will be chosen, count on us for supporting you in court at Accio!


Lina - Jun 1, 2005 1:28 pm (#1881 of 2980)
Gina, I just expect you to be the star at the Snape's trial! I'm sure you will do great.


Ponine - Jun 1, 2005 2:07 pm (#1882 of 2980)
Gina - me likes it a lot!! Have you entertained the notion that part of his double/triple/quadruple agent stint could have been to become a DE in the first place? That he never actually could turn, simply because he has only gone in one direction from day one? That he and Dumbledore, perhaps are the only ones who are aware of this, and that this is why Dumbledore is so confident in him? (And I still maintain that the scene where he asks Crabbe or Goyle to loosen his grip on Neville's neck is more for long-term tactics than a desire to help Neville.) (For instance, DADA positions are rarely given to teachers who stand by and watch while children are murdering each other)

But, GREAT job, I so wish I could be there to see.... *sigh*


Ponine - Jun 1, 2005 5:01 pm (#1883 of 2980)
Gina said: ...he does not possess the kind of conventional good looks which often sway people who judge by appearance alone and according to mainstream tastes.... (Do I detect a snipe at someone we might know...??)


Choices - Jun 1, 2005 5:42 pm (#1884 of 2980)
Good Luck Gina - wonderful arguments for Severus. Can't wait to hear all the details when you return. {{hugs for luck}}


Gina R Snape - Jun 1, 2005 6:44 pm (#1885 of 2980)
Thanks, everyone!

Ponine, I didn't have anyone in particular in mind with that statement. But I can think of a few I'd always be keen to take a Snape-inspired go at.


dizzy lizzy - Jun 1, 2005 7:02 pm (#1886 of 2980)
That was a very good submission Gina. Am rather impressed by your defence of Severus.

Lizzy


far from prefect - Jun 2, 2005 12:37 pm (#1887 of 2980)
Fantastic job, Gina. Well thought out and very nicely documented with proofs from the literature. They can't fail to completely exonerate Professor Snape after your defense. I hope Severus appreciates all you do and have done for him.

Enjoy the conference! Surprised) FFP


Chemyst - Jun 2, 2005 4:52 pm (#1888 of 2980)
'Love the "sine qua non of proof" about the shock sensation, Gina. That was mentioned so far back on these threads I'd nearly forgotten it. I've read enough of your posts to expect you'd have good sound arguments, but it is still very impressive that they fit the 500 word limit.


Gina R Snape - Jun 2, 2005 6:32 pm (#1889 of 2980)
Edited Jun 2, 2005 7:33 pm
Thanks, Chemyst! You can imagine how far back into my brain and these threads I had to go to garner all my thoughts and evidence. I almost feel like 2 1/2 years at the Lex defending my Severus has served to prepare me for the trial! I only hope they pick me to present.

I wonder if anyone else will feel that nasty magical shock protection. But I suppose that belongs on another thread, eh?


Mare - Jun 4, 2005 8:37 am (#1890 of 2980)
Bloody brilliant Gina. I'm almost starting to like Snape...
,He then throws a jar of dead cockroaches against the wall above Harry’s head out of frustration, when he easily could have thrown the jar directly at Harry
somehow I find this very funny!


septentrion - Jun 5, 2005 1:31 am (#1891 of 2980)
Gina, your defense is very good. You have all my moral support !


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 5, 2005 11:01 am (#1892 of 2980)
Great arguments in Severus' defense, Gina! I may not be quite where Mare is, but best of luck with it, all the same.


T Brightwater - Jun 5, 2005 5:03 pm (#1893 of 2980)
Gina, that's terrific. Good point, that being a DE or supporting LV is not in itself a crime.


Gina R Snape - Jun 5, 2005 5:29 pm (#1894 of 2980)
Thanks again, everyone!

Say, this thread has gotten awfully quiet lately. All Snape-d out with 40 days to go?


Choices - Jun 5, 2005 5:35 pm (#1895 of 2980)
Edited Jun 5, 2005 6:36 pm
What can you say about Snape that hasn't already been said? I think we're all ready for some concrete evidence. We have 40 days to wander in the wilderness before we get some answers.


dizzy lizzy - Jun 5, 2005 5:58 pm (#1896 of 2980)
Edited Jun 5, 2005 6:59 pm
We have 40 days to wander in the wilderness... choices

And clog up the soon to be new chat thread?

Lizzy


Grindylow - Jun 6, 2005 3:32 am (#1897 of 2980)
new chat thread?


Gina R Snape - Jun 6, 2005 6:47 am (#1898 of 2980)
I walked away from the chat thread for 2 days and came back to find 302 posts. I'm not even going to try and catch up!!!!

And to stay on-topic, think I should post a vote for Snape? Like, what we think we'll find out about him in HbP? That might be fun.


Lina - Jun 6, 2005 8:12 am (#1899 of 2980)
Oh yes, Gina, please do! I'm sure you will find the best options and words!


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 6, 2005 3:00 pm (#1900 of 2980)
I agree, Choices, there are just too many variables, as I stated on the Neville thread and now we are ready!!
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mooncalf - Jun 6, 2005 6:10 pm (#1901 of 2980)
Yes, please, Gina! The Vote thread has gotten awfully quiet, too!


Ponine - Jun 6, 2005 6:32 pm (#1902 of 2980)
Ok, as this thread is slowing down, I will take the liberty of asking for your input on some thoughts. It has been said that Lily did not have to die, and I never really agreed with that. It seemed ridiculous to me that LV for some reason would spare her when taking a life means so little to him. Then, I started thinking that in order for Lily to be able to sacrifice her life to him, she would have HAD to have a choice in the matter, so to speak, otherwise, it would not really have been a sacrifice - at least I perceive a sacrifice to be somthing you have to give, it can't be taken.

Then, I started thinking, what possibly could have possessed LV to spare her life? And then I thought - hm - some people do afterall, firmly believe that Snape was present that night.... I think Severus, more than anyone else, could have been in a position to bargain, or influence or persuade LV to let her go, for various reasons. Whether it was to give her a fighting chance, to give her the alternative of sacrificing herself, because he loved her (these are farfetched, I know) because he wanted to even the score with at least one Potter (kind of like this one) - Tripe, anyone?

Oh, and Gina and you all - I am still hoping for a comment regarding my previous post, where I was thinking out loud about whether Severus could have been 'undercover' even when 'signing up' as a DE... Lee


Gina R Snape - Jun 6, 2005 6:43 pm (#1903 of 2980)
Ponine, I think Snape joined the DEs fair and square. I don't see DD putting anyone in that degree of harms way for the sake of the Order. However, he's not above using a 'convenient' situation to his advantage, with Snape being a former DE.


Madame Pomfrey - Jun 6, 2005 7:23 pm (#1904 of 2980)
What a great defense of Severus Snape,Gina. I've always enjoyed his character because he's so spicy. However, I have had mixed feelings reguarding where his loyalties lie and the observations about the foe glass and Harry's "Lily Protection" just about have me convinced that he is on the good side.


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 6, 2005 8:25 pm (#1905 of 2980)
". . .in order for Lily to be able to sacrifice her life to him, she would have HAD to have a choice in the matter, so to speak, otherwise, it would not really have been a sacrifice . . . "

Ponine, how perceptive of you to come to such a conclusion. That's why I love these threads!

I also think the Snape loving Lily is far fetched because he was so quick to call her such a vile word (mudblood). I don't think even someone trying to hide his feelings would go to such an extreme.


septentrion - Jun 6, 2005 11:57 pm (#1906 of 2980)
I don't think even someone trying to hide his feelings would go to such an extreme.

you never know...


Miriam Huber - Jun 7, 2005 4:04 am (#1907 of 2980)
I don´t think the sacrifice depended on whether V would have killed Lily after killing Harry, anyway. At that moment at least he wanted to kill Harry. And what counted there was Lily´s intention: Take me instead of Harry. It doesn´t matter what Voldemort thinks, it matters what Lily thinks and feels and means with her substitutional death. Just my 2knuts, of course.


Choices - Jun 7, 2005 8:16 am (#1908 of 2980)
Edited Jun 7, 2005 9:18 am
It is my belief that Lily - who was good at charms - placed a charm on Harry herself and the only way to activate it was for her to sacrifice herself for him. Voldemort gave her a choice - move aside and let me kill Harry and maybe I won't kill you too, or stand there and you will die first and then I'll kill Harry. With either choice, Harry was going to die. But, knowing how the charm she had put on Harry worked, she knew that if she sacrificed her life first, Harry would be protected. Plus her blood sacrifice, according to Dumbledore, invoked some very old magic that also cast a protective charm over Harry. So, I think he was doubly protected. I think Lily knew what she had to do when Voldemort arrived, and was willing to lay down her life to activated the charm and save her son.


Weeny Owl - Jun 7, 2005 9:18 am (#1909 of 2980)
Here's an interesting webpage about Snape being tried in absentia. You can find it by using Google and typing in: Accio 2005 - UK Harry Potter Conference - Snape Trial


Gina R Snape - Jun 7, 2005 11:16 am (#1910 of 2980)
Weeny, that is the trial for which I wrote my defence!


Gina R Snape - Jun 7, 2005 6:02 pm (#1911 of 2980)
Edited Jun 7, 2005 7:03 pm
Ok, well, I posted a suggestion for the vote thread. We'll see if it flies.

In the meantime, we have 38 days until more Snape HbP. TLC is soliciting questions for Melissa's interview with JKR. Any good Snape questions we can ask her to ask JKR?


GryffEndora - Jun 7, 2005 7:02 pm (#1912 of 2980)
How about asking what Snape would see in the mirror of Erised?


Weeny Owl - Jun 7, 2005 8:55 pm (#1913 of 2980)
I was wondering if that was the same thing, Gina.

I would like a final say on the whole graveyard scene in GoF and what part Snape played in that, if he truly likes Draco and what his relationship is with the Malfoys, if he is a pureblood, if his parents are living, if his father was a Death Eater, and if he is a Potions master in the way someone would be who apprenticed and earned a title or if he's someone who just teaches potions.


Miriam Huber - Jun 7, 2005 9:57 pm (#1914 of 2980)
I would like to know if Snape is that good at Legilimency that he can use it without saying the incantation, and if he was, consequently, really reading Harry´s mind (sorry for the muggle expression) every time Harry in the first four books felt Snapes eyes "boring" into him - and Harry, with quite the wrong intuition, didn´t look away but Snape straight in the eyes (one time thinking of how you have to look at Hippogriff).


Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 8, 2005 7:18 am (#1915 of 2980)
I would like to know more about Snape's life at home and his parents, and also whether he is a pure-blood or not. And then of course, "If he was an animagus what animal he would turn into?", and what are his boggart and Patronus? Of course I could see JKR responding with, "Hmmm...you'll find out." **Snarl**


septentrion - Jun 8, 2005 7:47 am (#1916 of 2980)
I think Jo have already refused to answer the questions about Snape's boggart and patronus, and hinted us about Snape's parentage saying if he was a Death Eater, then it must mean something about it.


GryffEndora - Jun 8, 2005 8:28 am (#1917 of 2980)
Edited Jun 8, 2005 9:39 am
I had a thought this morning, for some reason I was thinking about Harry's Valentine from CoS and suddenly I wondered if Snape could have sent it to embarrass Harry. The reason I thought of Snape is that the 2 color comparisons made are to a fresh pickled toad (sounds like a potion ingredient) and a blackboard (the place Snape writes all the potions instructions). I still prefer to think Ginny did it but I thought I'd ask what you all think?

*edit: Oh, I forgot one point. The rhyme also refers to LV as The Dark Lord, just as does Snape.


Choices - Jun 8, 2005 8:39 am (#1918 of 2980)
Sorry, but I don't think Snape is out to embarrass Harry. He wants much more than that - expulsion might satisfy Snape, to have Harry discredited, brought down, squashed like a bug, humbled, etc., but not killed. Sending that valentine just wouldn't be Snape's style. He would want to personally do the thing that would make Harry look like a fool, not trust it to a bunch of surly "Cupids".


Tomoé - Jun 8, 2005 9:20 am (#1919 of 2980)
I believe it's either Tom Riddle who helped Ginny to write it or he possessed Ginny and write it alone.


Madame Pomfrey - Jun 8, 2005 11:24 am (#1920 of 2980)
Edited Jun 8, 2005 12:26 pm
Ok there is something troubling me about Snape and I need to get it off my chest so here it goes...In S.S at the quidditch match when Harry's broom was being jinxed,Hermione on her way to Snape, knocked Quirrell head first into the front row.After reaching Snape she did her incantation and started a fire on the hem his robes.It took 30 seconds for Snape to realize the fire and respond then Hermione scrambled back along the row.Up in the air Harry was suddenly able to climb back on his broom.My question is Does it take >30 seconds for a jinx to be broken once eye contact is broken? Even if it does it seems Snape's counter jinx should have worked right away.Was Quirrell really jinxing the broom or was it Snape?I know Quirrell admitted to it but he was also possessed by Voldemort at the time.Could Snape be a well guarded secret"the faithful DE?"


Choices - Jun 8, 2005 5:46 pm (#1921 of 2980)
Edited Jun 8, 2005 6:48 pm
Madame Pomfrey - "Could Snape be a well guarded secret"the faithful DE?"

My answer would be....Indeed he could. But, we don't know for sure, do we? Right now, all we can do is guess.

Maybe the jinx is still in effect for a few seconds after Quirrell is knocked down and then it takes another few seconds for Snape's counterjinx to take effect. That might account for the 30 second difference. I think Snape was truly trying to help Harry, although probably reluctantly.


Madame Pomfrey - Jun 8, 2005 6:18 pm (#1922 of 2980)
I am hoping that is true because I want to have faith in him as Dumbledore does.Its hard though.It seems that other countercurses take effect immediately such as the reversal of the Tarantelegra jinx that Lupin did on Neville.Lupin simply pointed his wand and said Finite.Maybe it is not the same as when an object is jinxed verses a person.


Choices - Jun 8, 2005 6:26 pm (#1923 of 2980)
Edited Jun 8, 2005 7:27 pm
With Quirrell's jinx there had to be eye contact too - maybe that had something to do with it. You could be right also about the person vs object being jinxed. Maybe the type of jinx makes a difference. Only JKR knows...LOL


Gina R Snape - Jun 8, 2005 6:40 pm (#1924 of 2980)
Everything stopped when Snape used Finite Incantatum during the dueling club scene. Perhaps that's just a particularly powerful spell.


GryffEndora - Jun 8, 2005 6:41 pm (#1925 of 2980)
Edited Jun 8, 2005 7:41 pm
"Time and space matter in magic, Potter. Eye contact is often essential to Legilimency." OotP Underline mine.

Harry was much further away from Snape and Quirrel than Lupin and Neville in the DoM. Since space matters it probably took more time to effect the broom.


Madame Pomfrey - Jun 8, 2005 7:32 pm (#1926 of 2980)
Time and space matter in magic -GryffEndora. I would have never remembered that line had you not mentioned it.That would make perfect since why the spell took so long.Ok..Ok.. I need to quit picking on Gina's husband.


frogface - Jun 9, 2005 3:04 am (#1927 of 2980)
Plus Snape didn't appear to be using his wand. If he wasn't then that may have made the counterjinx less effective.


Gina R Snape - Jun 9, 2005 6:26 am (#1928 of 2980)
Well, the one thing I come back to when considering a new twist is that whole Occam's razor. The simplest answer is usually the correct one. In JKR's case, we know she puts in twists and turns, but in the end they always make sense. I see no point in having Quirrell's explanations at the end of PS/SS be anything other than accurate. That's not to say Snape can't still turn around and be something other than as he appears (depending upon who is looking and interpreting among us). But I just don't see any point in JKR throwing in such a convoluted twist as the one suggested.

I think we just NEEEEED the NEXT BOOK!

Say, GryffEndora, can we get a picture of you without a costume so we can see what you look like normally?


Grindylow - Jun 9, 2005 7:17 am (#1929 of 2980)
Edited Jun 9, 2005 8:18 am
I agree with Snape's bride....we NEED THAT BOOK!!!!


Choices - Jun 9, 2005 8:10 am (#1930 of 2980)
Good point about the "space" in magic GryffEndora. I think that may have solved this puzzle. :-)


Moo4Freedom - Jun 9, 2005 11:32 am (#1931 of 2980)
Allright I haven't read all the posts so if this has been said in some way I apologize. Also the thread really isn't on the subject of this at the moment so I apologize for changing the topic. I just couldn't get the theory out of my head.

This is on the subject of Snape's Worst Memory. It was said earlier that it may have been thought of as that because it was what pushed him over the edge to join the DE's. This I agree with and just wanted to put in my thoughts on him joining the DE's. First of all I don't think that Severus buys into the whole superior blood line thing. He most likely joined for the power and respect. If any of you have seen Bedazzled you will know what I am talking about. There is this one scene when she is luring him in to the deal. She makes this speach.

"I'm talking about reinvention, taking control of your destiny. You wanna be liked? You wanna be loved? How about respected? How about feared?"

I think a similar approach would work on Snape. Just like the character in the movie everything is going bad in his life. Then the underwear incident happens. When LV or LM gives him a little speech similar to that the respect chord really hits him. He thinks back to the underwear thing. That incident stripped him of any self respect and dignity he had left.

That's my take on it Smile


Netherlandic - Jun 9, 2005 12:28 pm (#1932 of 2980)
Perhaps he joined the DE's just to take revenge at Sirius and James, Moo4freedom. That would stick with your theory.


applepie - Jun 9, 2005 1:25 pm (#1933 of 2980)
That seems very logical.


Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 9, 2005 1:57 pm (#1934 of 2980)
Maybe Snape joined the Death Eaters because he saw that LV and his followers had a common interest in the Dark Arts--something that Snape enjoys. Maybe he thought it was some kind of Dark Arts Club. (I know, that sounds really ridiculous). But if he didn't have any friends, perhaps Lucius used something like that to lure Snape in.


frogface - Jun 10, 2005 12:33 am (#1935 of 2980)
Edited Jun 10, 2005 1:35 am
Has anyone seen the film Goodfella's? For those who haven't its a film based on a true story about itallian ganster life in america. Anyway theres one part when the narrator is talking about how its like being part of a family. Of course thats totally stupid because the characters betray each other left right and centre, often killing friends they have known for years because of the purposes of bussiness and revenge - what kind of family is that? Anyway it struck me that maybe Severus could have been convinced by similar promises of a family. Voldemort does refer to the death eaters after all as his true family, and we know from the occlumency scene that Snape has had a traumatic family life. I also like the idea that he could be convinced by being told he'll gain respect. I think thats dot on.


Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 10, 2005 8:55 am (#1936 of 2980)
Yes I agree with that, and that's basically what I was getting at, too.


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 11, 2005 4:53 pm (#1937 of 2980)
Miriam, something you posted sent me thinking in an off direction: If Snape is everything his wife, Gina, says he is, maybe his patronus is a hippogriff?

I just remember reading a quote by JKR saying that by revealing his patronus too early (and his boggart, I believe) would give away too much too soon. A spider (although very fitting) doesn't seem too revealing about him in my opinion. A hippogriff, on the other hand, would reveal a lot - meaning that he is helpful to those who respect him and have earned his trust.

Any thoughts?


Choices - Jun 11, 2005 4:58 pm (#1938 of 2980)
We have yet to see anyone with a Patronus that is a magical creature - so far they are all normal animals - swan, otter, deer, etc. If Snape's is a hippogryff, it will be a first.


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 11, 2005 5:12 pm (#1939 of 2980)
Good observation, Choices.

What can be so revealing to warrant holding off until later in the series?


Choices - Jun 11, 2005 5:18 pm (#1940 of 2980)
I don't know - JKR is driving me nuts with all these mysteries. I am such a curious person and I hate waiting worse than anything, so she is really causing me much grief. The only thing that keeps me going is knowing that when it gets here, it is going to be worth the long wait.


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 11, 2005 5:22 pm (#1941 of 2980)
We need to start prodding her to start Book 7 and end it already!


far from prefect - Jun 11, 2005 7:41 pm (#1942 of 2980)
HH, that is an interesting suggestion about Snape's patronus being a hippogriff. I think it would fit him pretty well. Would the patronus hippogriff need to be bowed to? And by whom?


Lina - Jun 12, 2005 12:39 am (#1943 of 2980)
DD's Patronus is a Phoenix. I'd count him as a magical creature.


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 12, 2005 4:26 am (#1944 of 2980)
Thanks, far from prefect. That answer would reveal a bit about Snape, wouldn't it? Maybe, as theories pointed out earlier, he was approached in the right way by Big V (or Lucius). Whatever happened there would explain a lot. It just didn't make sense that JKR would keep a spider patronus from us for so long. That's probably why new ideas keep popping up on the thread - it just doesn't explain enough and it picks away at people's minds.

I didn't think of DD's patronus, Lina. That's a good point, too.


Choices - Jun 12, 2005 7:56 am (#1945 of 2980)
This must be a case where JKR has revealed in a "chat" that Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix. Certainly we have not been told that in the books. We saw him conjure something to summons Hagrid, but I am not certain that could be considered a patronus. A patronus wards off dementors and what Dumbledore conjured was a summons - no dementors were present. If indeed it is Dumbledore's patronus, then it is the first magical creature we have seen as a patronus.


Emily - Jun 12, 2005 10:04 am (#1946 of 2980)
What form does Dumbledore’s Patronus take?

Good question. Can anyone guess? You have had a clue. There was a little whisper there. It is a phoenix, which is very representative of Dumbledore for reasons that I am sure you can guess.

-JKRowling.com (In the News section, from the Edinburgh Book Festival)

I like the idea of Snape's patronus being a hippogriff. I think that might show his personality well, even if the typical hippogriff does react better to critism than Snape.


Emiko - Jun 12, 2005 1:37 pm (#1947 of 2980)
It was suggested a LONG time ago, that Snape was in love with Lily. (and that could explain why he hated James so much, and why he was so upset w/ his Worst Memory) What I'm wondering is, if Snape joined the DEs, what implications does that have? Does anyone here believe Snape was in love w/ Lily?

Hooray! School's out! I'm so glad to be back!


Catherine - Jun 12, 2005 2:00 pm (#1948 of 2980)
Emiko,

Congrats on school being out.

As for Snape being in love with Lily, there has been discussion about this. You can go to the archived Snape threads and use the "Search" function to read specific posts about that scenario.

As for me, Snape is so unpleasant to Harry that I can't imagine a scenario in which Snape loved Lily. Also, the "mudblood" name-calling rather ruined any such ideas for me.

But your idea does suggest some sort of redemption for Snape, and I would like to see his true colors, dark or not.


Emiko - Jun 12, 2005 2:30 pm (#1949 of 2980)
Edited by Catherine Jun 12, 2005 3:37 pm
Catherine-- thanks for the advice, and the congrats! I have read through the archives, and it seemed to me that we have only touched on the possibilites of Snape's emotions. Some believe he's capable of love, some don't; some believe he joined the DEs b/c he was emotionally scarred or jilted (by parents or a girl--)... But, it's been a long time, we have some fresh blood (jk), I'd like to see what people think. Personally, I love the idea of Snape falling for Lily, esp. since she seems like such a nice person, he could definitely feel comfortable with her. The mudblood thing could be backlash of being humiliated in front of the one person he loved. Or maybe he didn't love her yet... Lots of guys are mean to the girls they secretly adore.

Edited for family-friendliness. Email me if you have a question.--Catherine


Eloise Black - Jun 12, 2005 4:14 pm (#1950 of 2980)
Hi Guys

Here is a few thoughts that keep knocking around my head. I would like to hear what you guys think of them.

1. Snape, is the "Half-Blood Prince".

I think that it is possible that Snape's father was not only a king but also a death eater. I think that Snape's mother could have been a servant or commoner and also a muggle. Therefore his blood is half royal and half magical.

In Snape's Worst Nightmare, we see an arrogant man yelling a cowering woman. Keep in mind Snape, hates arrogant people. eg James.

I also think that Snape's mother worshipped Snape's father. All Snape, saw was that the more that his mother loved his father, the more she was mistreated, perhaps beaten and then killed. Snape does say to Harry, "Fools that wear their hearts on their sleeves", are weak and suffer for it. (I do not have the books or the exact quote).

I think that Snape joined the DE because his father made him do so. What made Snape leave the DE? If Voldemort had Snape's father kill his mother, because she was a muggle, then S may have decided that he wanted no part of it. He then went to DD, to seek guidance and help so that he could leave the DE.

2. Snape can "stopper death". He tells H this in his first class. Is this potion that S is talking about the "Elixir of Life" and is love a key ingredient of this potion. Dumbledore, states some thing along the lines of "that an ancient magic "love" saved Harry and gives him power that Voldemort knows not." Is this what was missing at GH when V tried to AK Harrry.

3. Harry must choose to trust Snape. In the final battle H may need to drink the "Elixer of Life", that S has brewed. The elixer and love that H has from his friends, is what will save him in the end.

Please feel free to disect and discuss these thoughts.

Eloise
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Ydnam96 - Jun 12, 2005 9:26 pm (#1951 of 2980)
Eloise, I think you have made some excellent points. I have always assumed that Snapes father was the reason he joined with the Death Eaters, being that he was forced to do it. A horrible childhood would account for a lot of his behaviors. I'm not sure I'm sold on the HBP part. But it is an interesting idea.

I do believe that Harry and Snape will HAVE to work together in the end to stop VM.

Nice points


Miriam Huber - Jun 13, 2005 1:38 am (#1952 of 2980)
Eloise, the "elixir of life" is made from the Philosophers Stone, and that one is destroyed.

The remark about "stopper death" has caused some discussion, but I suspect the meaning is: "put death (i.e. a poison) in a bottle and cork it" not preventing someone from dying. Imagine Snape to be able to brew an "immortality potion"! That would make the whole Harry-protection thing pointless, to begin with. He just could swallow the potion.

I always assumed that the "ancient magic" protecting Harry was Lily´s sacrifice itself, not some magic added to it.


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 13, 2005 4:33 am (#1953 of 2980)
The unicorn blood also stops death, but it's not as simple as Harry just drinking it. Perhaps Snape's "stopper in death" brew has its drawbacks, as well.


Grindylow - Jun 13, 2005 4:36 am (#1954 of 2980)
In regards to Snape/Lily: Keep in mind that Lily didn't like James because he was so mean to Snape. I think it is a possibility that Snape had a CRUSH on Lily and when she ended up with James, he was heartbroken. This would also tie in nicely to his not liking Harry because he is the product of James..........

Just my 2 knuts!


Catherine - Jun 13, 2005 4:43 am (#1955 of 2980)
Perhaps Snape's "stopper in death" brew has its drawbacks, as well. --Hungarian Horntail

Interesting thought, HH. Yes, I can see that a powerful potion could have powerful side effects, possibly.

We've seen that some potions require very careful handling, which can partially explain why Snape is so strict with his students.


Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 13, 2005 5:56 am (#1956 of 2980)
Grindylow-I don't think that Snape had a crush on Lily. I don't have OOTP here, but I distinctly remember that Snape was not happy at Lily for intervening between him and James. I think he called her a mudblood, didn't he? Anyways, I remember the scene as Snape not showing any feelings towards Lily that would indicate that he liked her.


Gina R Snape - Jun 13, 2005 6:31 am (#1957 of 2980)
Edited Jun 13, 2005 7:31 am
I don't think Snape had a crush on Lily. But I think the pensieve scene is not proof of that. In that scene, he is humiliated by the Marauders. And he probably felt it was even worse to be rescued by a girl, and a muggleborn no less, in full view of his fellow slytherins and the rest of the school.


Grindylow - Jun 13, 2005 6:36 am (#1958 of 2980)
Edited Jun 13, 2005 7:37 am
I can't wait until I get my hands on HBP! I want to understand Snape and what makes him tick. I so want him to be good at heart, but I am leary.......

::::::::::::::apologizes so much to Gina:::::::::::::::::


Gina R Snape - Jun 13, 2005 7:54 am (#1959 of 2980)
No need to apologise to me, dear. All ye of little faith in Severus shall see the truth (or more bits of it) in less than 5 weeks.


Ydnam96 - Jun 13, 2005 7:58 am (#1960 of 2980)
I have this fear that JK will not reveal the truth to us until the 7th book and all that HBP will do is cause us to ask even more questions and go even more crazy until book seven comes out.


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 13, 2005 9:46 am (#1961 of 2980)
You've brought up some great points, Eloise Black. I hope to think over some of this and possibly tie it in with some other great theories.

Snape would certainly be a surprise HBP - just JKR's style - giving us the slip when it's right under our noses.


Gina R Snape - Jun 13, 2005 10:10 am (#1962 of 2980)
Edited Jun 13, 2005 11:11 am
Ydnam96, I don't think she'll reveal all in book 6. But since the series is winding down I think she will answer more questions than create questions.

Of course, seeing how incredibly analytical and detail-orientated we can be here on the Lex, she might open up questions she hadn't anticipated.

I think she'll continue putting Snape in that half-light space where some of us see all the good in the sun and others see only negative, in the shadows.


Netherlandic - Jun 13, 2005 12:51 pm (#1963 of 2980)
Love your theory that Snape is the HBP, Eloise. And also your ideas about Snape's parents. Especially if it turns out that Blaise Zabini is a son of Snape. (giggles).


frogface - Jun 13, 2005 2:22 pm (#1964 of 2980)
I think we will get more answers from HBP. Hasn't JKR said that she feels like the series has now reached a point where its time for questions to be answered or something like that? I think she may have said it somewhere on her website (to be honest with you all I'm just too lazy to check Razz)


Emiko - Jun 13, 2005 6:48 pm (#1965 of 2980)
Personally, I always thought HBP was going to be someone new.

And will JKR ever give us the full answers? Or will she leave us to figure some stuff out by ourselves?

I have another Snape question for ya'll. Was just re-reading the first book, and we're all going on about Snape's inherent goodness (even though he's rather nasty sometimes) why doesn't he TELL DD (or at least SOMEONE) that he suspects Quirrell? B/c he suspects him pretty early on in the year, and if he and DD are so close (or at least confidants)...


Gina R Snape - Jun 13, 2005 6:57 pm (#1966 of 2980)
Emiko, for all we know he *did* tell DD. But since Harry wasn't aware of it, neither are we. I'm fairly certain DD was aware of a problem with Quirrell. But perhaps he didn't know for certain that Voldemort was IN his head. Then again, there are those who believe DD wanted to test Harry from the beginning, to see what sort of stuff he was made of. Snape, on the other hand, was busy doing his spying business as he's wont to do when he sniffs something suspicious.


Ydnam96 - Jun 13, 2005 8:49 pm (#1967 of 2980)
Hmmm... an interesting but far fetched idea has sprung into my head. It is not well formed but I'll throw it out none-the-less

I wonder if Snape, who I believe is believe is "good", doesn't trust DD quite as much as everyone else? What if he thinks that he has a better way of protecting Harry than DD and he goes about his way without informing DD? I mean, he won't do anything that goes against DD but he may feel that DD isn't taking all the necessary steps because of his, ahem, fondness for Harry (and we know how Snape feels about showing ones emotions).

Thoughts???


TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 13, 2005 10:13 pm (#1968 of 2980)
What a can of worms...excuse me, I'm going fishing...

toddles off and hopes doesen't get wet...


Netherlandic - Jun 14, 2005 4:00 am (#1969 of 2980)
Why do you think that, Ydnam? Snape might want to protect Harry but what can he do that DD doesn't do already? Really interested to know if you have found any clues for your wondering.


rambkowalczyk - Jun 14, 2005 6:03 am (#1970 of 2980)
Eloise,

If Snape's father was the reason that Snape became a Death Eater, I can imagine a scene where Snape goes to Dumbledore and offers to spy for him. Then at some point Snape betrays Dumbledore, then later rejoins Dumbledore.

Maybe Snape betrayed Dumbledore by spying on him when talking to Tralawney and telling Voldemort about it in the first place. He redeemed himself by warning Dumbledore when he found out that Voldemort was going to kill Harry.


Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 14, 2005 6:30 am (#1971 of 2980)
"Maybe Snape betrayed Dumbledore by spying on him when talking to Tralawney and telling Voldemort about it in the first place. He redeemed himself by warning Dumbledore when he found out that Voldemort was going to kill Harry."

That is an interesting thought, but I am not sure that was Snape. The spy at the Hog's Head left quickly after hearing just part of the prophesy. Given Snape's character, he seems to be the type of person who would wait to make sure he had all the facts before he left to tell LV about what he had heard. Snape is a very calculating person who doesn't seem to act rashly.


Cornelia - Jun 14, 2005 6:56 am (#1972 of 2980)
Edited Jun 14, 2005 8:00 am
The eavesdropper was thrown out, I think. I look that up, wait a minute...

Edit: Bloombury hardback, chapter: The lost prophecy, Page 743: "...one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building."


Weeny Owl - Jun 14, 2005 7:04 am (#1973 of 2980)
The spy didn't leave quickly, did he? He was thrown out only a short way into the prophecy.

I don't think Snape was the one who heard the prophecy. He might have been, of course, but I just can't quite see it.


Ydnam96 - Jun 14, 2005 8:33 am (#1974 of 2980)
Netherlandic, I have no support. I was just an idea...


Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 14, 2005 10:04 am (#1975 of 2980)
Ah ha! Since the spy was thrown out, he/she DID leave quickly! I wasn't totally off. Smile But either way, IMHO I don't think it was Snape that heard the prophesy. I really can't see Snape visiting a bar in the first place, even if he was spying.


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 14, 2005 10:21 am (#1976 of 2980)
I kind of think the spy may have been Pettigrew. Only because he reminds me of Mundungus when Harry was overheard by him.


GryffEndora - Jun 14, 2005 10:41 am (#1977 of 2980)
If the spy was Pettigrew and Pettigrew was caught and thrown out, they would have known Peter was the spy and never made him secret keeper. I just don't think it could be Peter.


Lina - Jun 14, 2005 12:23 pm (#1978 of 2980)
I think that Snape started to suspect Quirrell at the quiddich game when Harry's broom went crazy and he had to do the countercurse. And DD showing up at the next quiddich game, and Snape refereeing, just shows to me that Snape did tell DD about it. After rereading those two games in PS/SS, this seems to me as a biggest proof that Snape is on the good side, even bigger than the end of GoF.


Miriam Huber - Jun 14, 2005 12:33 pm (#1979 of 2980)
Edited Jun 14, 2005 1:34 pm
Sorry to get off topic, but your new avatar, Gryffendora - I LOVE it! Is it really a Llama?

edit: Do you know more than we know? Is that Snape´s patronus? :laugh:


GryffEndora - Jun 14, 2005 12:36 pm (#1980 of 2980)
Edited Jun 14, 2005 1:36 pm
Yes, it's really a llama. The quote came to me this morning and I had to find a pic to go with it. I smile everytime I look at it. I'm so glad you are enjoying it as well.

*edit Miriam Huber LOL!!!*

*Now back to your regularly scheduled Severus Snape thread*


far from prefect - Jun 14, 2005 12:37 pm (#1981 of 2980)
I think Severus has so much respect and gratitude for Dumbledore that he would never try to "outsmart" him by coming up with an alternate, secret plan for Harry. He is loyal to the Headmaster. Whatever his faults, he is not playing one-up-manship with Dumbledore.

JM2K, of course...


frogface - Jun 14, 2005 12:45 pm (#1982 of 2980)
Edited Jun 14, 2005 2:07 pm
I've had an idea about what Snape's boggart might be: himself crying? Seeing himself showing what he percieves to be weakness. I think that must be a big fear for Snape, being what he see's as weak, or allowing someone to see him in that way.


Solitaire - Jun 14, 2005 12:58 pm (#1983 of 2980)
I think that makes sense, Frogface. After all, wasn't Hermione's boggart having McGonagall tell her she'd failed all of her classes? Same sort of thing ...


Eloise Black - Jun 15, 2005 2:32 am (#1984 of 2980)
Hi All

I haven't been on the computer for a few days. Had to let my brother have a go.

Thanks for the great comments.

I do not think that Snape, would go behind DD, back as he dispises people who do not follow the rules or who think that they are above them.

Also, it appears that Snape, likes and feels comfortable operating within a set of rules. He grew up in a strict home were he had to tow the line. He attended Hogwarts, and had to follow school rules. As a Death Eater, he had to follow V, rule and now he is in the Order of the Phoenix and follows their rules.

I think following the rules gives him confidence and when he has mastered the rules he feels powerful. I think he joined the DE without questioning his fathers rule because he was week and then when he found that he could follow the DE's rules he gained confidence.

Thats my monies worth.

Eloise


Cornelia - Jun 15, 2005 5:12 am (#1985 of 2980)
I think he likes others to follow the rules, but he preferes playing with(?)his own rules. He betrays, at least, Voldemort when he is spying. He is breaking V.s rules permanently while doing so.

I think, he likes clear rules, but only because of them he knows when he has to make a secret of his actions.

I think, when he was a child, he was fleeing into the Dark Arts. I don´t know if Dark Arts in general are against the law, but they are against the "good taste" (can I write it like this?). But it seems like he didn´t care.

He might be too occupied with his own things and thoughts to care much about rules...

But, I don´t know...


Miriam Huber - Jun 15, 2005 8:59 am (#1986 of 2980)
And what about him threating Harry that he might "slip" Veritaserum into his evening pumpkin juice, although he himself admits that this potion may only be used according to strict ministry guidelines and they apply not to Harry´s case?

I agree with Cornelia. He certainly doesn´t like students not to follow rules. But, on the other hand, Draco is allowed some "extras". But he is not overly fussed with rules himself.


Gina R Snape - Jun 15, 2005 9:05 am (#1987 of 2980)
Miriam, you don't think that 'slip' comment was just a threat to scare Harry? I think Snape does that a lot. I don't think he had real intention of using it on Harry. But he sure got a rise out of Harry worrying about it.


Weeny Owl - Jun 15, 2005 9:17 am (#1988 of 2980)
I agree, Gina.

Snape didn't actually threaten to give Harry Verituserum. He just presented a scenario that could possibly happen and left Harry to worry about it. Besides that, he said he would sprinkle it in Harry's evening pumpkin juice, but how would he do that in the Great Hall? If he did, Harry certainly wouldn't drink it if he saw Snape dosing his drink with something.


Choices - Jun 15, 2005 9:51 am (#1989 of 2980)
Edited Jun 15, 2005 10:52 am
Maybe Snape would do it before the pumpkin juice was sent up to the table - down in the kitchen. But, I don't think Snape would really do it.


Gina R Snape - Jun 15, 2005 10:09 am (#1990 of 2980)
I think they all pour from common pitchers. And he has no way of knowing for sure where Harry will sit.


Miriam Huber - Jun 15, 2005 10:35 pm (#1991 of 2980)
Edited Jun 15, 2005 11:37 pm
But Harry took him seriously, so it must be doable. And do you think it is really allowed that a teacher poisons the pet of a student (Trevor the toad)? Even if he gives him the antidote afterwards, Trevor is Neville´s private possession.

Sorry to be obstinate, but while I really believe that Snape is on the side of good, I think there is only so much you can discuss away of his nastiness. And exactly this combination makes his character so interesting: nasty, but NOT bad - good, but NOT in all of his little day-to-day actions.


Gina R Snape - Jun 16, 2005 9:03 am (#1992 of 2980)
Well, of course Harry took him seriously. Snape played into his fears and Harry responded emotionally, not rationally.

As for Trevor, I imagine Snape would have been in real trouble had he done lasting harm to the toad. I just don't think there was any real danger of that happening. I think there are only so many things that can go wrong with a potion when all the students have the same ingredients. And theirs was a relatively easy potion as they were second years I believe.


Choices - Jun 16, 2005 9:19 am (#1993 of 2980)
I think Snape was attempting to get the kids - Neville especially - to try harder. In a round-about way, he was telling them that perhaps someday the life of a loved one would be on the line and what they did either would or wouldn't save them - depending on how careful and precise they were. Brew your potions as if the life of someone you love depends on it....that is what Snape is trying to instill in them, in my opinion.


applepie - Jun 16, 2005 1:16 pm (#1994 of 2980)
I would like to believe that too, Choices. I think that it is also his way of helping those non-slytherins (Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville) withouth Draco and crew realizing he is helping them.


Gina R Snape - Jun 16, 2005 3:17 pm (#1995 of 2980)
30 more days until Advanced Potions, guys! I wonder if he'll be torturing motivating Neville anymore!


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 16, 2005 4:12 pm (#1996 of 2980)
Sorry to throw you all off topic, but I came across something in PoA that I thought was worth a second thought; pg. 283, Scholastic ed.:

"Snape's eyes were boring into Harry's. It was exactly like trying to stare down a hippogriff. Harry tried hard not to blink."

Maybe that's why I made a connection reading some previous posts.


Emiko - Jun 16, 2005 5:18 pm (#1997 of 2980)
Thanks, Gina. But don't you think DD would have done something about Quirrell, esp. if he didn't know LV was involved? I mean, if he didn't know, then how could he be trying to "test" Harry, since there was no indication that Harry should be involved? And if he did know, doesn't he admit while talking to Harry in OotP that he felt Harry was too young? It's unlikely he would want to throw Harry in LV's path before he felt Harry was ready. I really think Snape didn't tell DD about Quirrell. Which makes me inclined to agree with Ydnam. Perhaps Snape does have his own agenda. It doesn't necessarily have to be a different purpose from DD's, but rather a different way of getting it done. Like with the pensieve/occulemency lessons. Snape had very different ideas than DD on how to teach Harry occulemency (I'm thinking back to DD's handling of Harry and the pensieve in GoF) and what was important, when he stopped teaching. Snape doesn't strike me as a particularly emotional person, although he loses it sometimes, he usually lets his head rule his heart. So wouldn't he trudge through the lessons if he knew how important it was?


Gina R Snape - Jun 16, 2005 6:03 pm (#1998 of 2980)
Edited Jun 16, 2005 7:04 pm
Emiko, everyone has their limits and it seems to me that with the Occlumency lessons and the pensieve that Snape had simply reached his.

I think DD would have done something had he known for certain that Voldemort was there and capable of real damage. As it was, I think DD only suspected, as he suspected in GoF but didn't act until he knew for sure that Harry was in danger.

Though it does strike me that the philosopher's stone would have been an immediate attraction for Voldemort. And in that case, why would DD bring it to Hogwarts knowing Harry was there? Perhaps he wanted to test all sides...Voldemort's, Harry's and Snape's capabilities.

But perhaps that belongs more on the DD thread.


Emiko - Jun 16, 2005 7:47 pm (#1999 of 2980)
GIna- DD doesn't strike me as the sort who would put someone in mortal danger just to test someone... But, I think you're right, this is more for the DD thread.

On the Snape side of it, certainly Snape has limits. But, he seems like the sort who could overcome those limits if necessary. It doesn't seem like Snape to leave such a invitation for disaster open and unprotected. We've mentioned how methodical he is, and it seems to me that he'd want to take care of all loose ends (or at least all that he was in charge of) when his life, and the life of millions of others are at stake. Snape does not think lightly of human life. Or perhaps he is more, well, human, than he seems...


Lina - Jun 17, 2005 4:13 am (#2000 of 2980)
Emiko, there is a discussion just going on on the DD thread about how much he knew and what he did about it. There is very much to think upon DD. That is what I am trying to say all the time. I don't think that Snape did anything wrong when it comes to reporting to DD. I'm not saying that he couldn't treat the students better.
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Post  Mona on Thu May 26, 2011 7:38 am

Ms Amanda - Jun 17, 2005 1:59 pm (#2001 of 2980)
My mind is dwelling on Snape and Neville again...

So, on the Lexicon, where it says that JKR named Snape for an English village, there is a link. And that link leads you to Snape Castle which was held by the Nevilles.

Any significance?


Emiko - Jun 18, 2005 8:18 pm (#2002 of 2980)
Ms Amanda, A long time ago we highlighted possible parallels between Snape and Neville. How they both have pretty miserable childhoods, they're both teased at school...etc. Perhaps that is the connection you're looking for.

Thanks for the heads up, Lina.


frogface - Jun 19, 2005 1:19 am (#2003 of 2980)
I think if there is any significance between Neville and Snape is that they are destined to help Harry in a big way. I just have a feeling about this, but we all know Neville could have been "The One" (i hate using that - so Matrix) and Snape is very insrumental in the fight against Voldemort). I'm just making a bit of a prediction here, its not really based on proper evidence though.


Emiko - Jun 21, 2005 2:31 pm (#2004 of 2980)
Well, Neville's a pure-blood, right? And we don't know what Snape is.... Isn't it possible that a long time ago the the longbottom's ruled the Snapes? Maybe that's why Snape hates Neville so much. It's a bit of an implausible plot, isn't it?

Snape is the thing Neville is most afraid of in the world. But, Neville's learning to face his fears (along with everyone else in the books) so perhaps that creates some sort of a connection for them...


GryffEndora - Jun 22, 2005 10:35 am (#2005 of 2980)
Or Snape and Neville could be distant relatives like cousins.


Emiko - Jun 22, 2005 12:08 pm (#2006 of 2980)
Well, if Snape's pureblood (which makes sense if he was a DE) then for sure Snape and Neville are related. Sirius said that all pureblood families are related.


Weeny Owl - Jun 22, 2005 8:34 pm (#2007 of 2980)
This might not be evidence, per se, but I think it is significant that Hagrid, Fawkes, and Snape all have black eyes. While Hagrid may be a bit loose with his tongue, there's no denying his loyalty to Dumbledore, and Fawkes's loyalty is not in question either. Perhaps Snape's black eyes signify a much brighter heart.


Netherlandic - Jun 23, 2005 8:04 am (#2008 of 2980)
Black eyes are intriguing, aren't they?


Emiko - Jun 23, 2005 5:05 pm (#2009 of 2980)
There were glittering black beetle eyes in Diagon alley in PS/SS, weren't there?


far from prefect - Jun 25, 2005 5:47 pm (#2010 of 2980)
just 5 knuts a scoop!


Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2005 3:45 pm (#2011 of 2980)
Edited Jun 28, 2005 4:50 pm
OK, so yesterday I was folding my laundry, and I started berating myself for the condition of two formerly-white washcloths which, through age and use, have become rather grayish. I said to myself in an irritated tone, "Self, why do you allow this? Why don't you just buy some new washcloths? It's not like they are too expensive or something." And then the frugal part of me kicked in with "But they are still perfectly good washcloths, albeit graying. And if I were still a starving college student, then new washcloths would be a silly thing to waste money on." That started me thinking about the infamous "greying underpants," and I started a search of Snape threads....

I am always wondering about Snape's backstory -- why does he have the bitterness that he obviously has? I have a couple of theories already, but this one hadn't occurred to me. What if Snape and his parents were extremely, extremely poor?

We all know that JKR herself went through a period where she was not exactly flush with money, and she is very aware of how that feels -- we see a bit of it in her depiction of Ron's resentment of his family's finances. If Snape was also in that situation, it could account for a great many things:

1) His resentment of James, and also Harry. Neither James nor Harry ever had to worry about money, apparently. They can just go about their business being great Quidditch players and popular students without a care in the world about money, and not having to earn it, either. How galling that would be for someone who had superb magical talent, but nothing material to show for it.

2) Being Malfoy's "lapdog." Perhaps Snape or his family was at some point employed by the Malfoys, or indebted to them in some financial way.

3) Greying underpants / self-neglect in the hygiene department might be a symptom of poor finances, not just self-loathing or a means of keeping people at arm's length both physically and emotionally.

4) Resentment of Sirius Black -- in much the same way as he would've resented James. Carefree youth from an old pureblood family with money, riding a cool motorcycle, had a house given to him by a relative ---- grrrrrrrrr!

5) Perhaps this was the means by which he was lured into the DEs -- the promise of financial reward. Or it could be the means by which he was lured into the service of the Order. **crosses fingers and hopes not**

Anyway, it's just a thought that I hadn't seen discussed anywhere before. Obviously there is more to the whole "resentment" issue with James and Sirius, but I just wondered if this could've been how it started? Perhaps it would be flogging a dead horse for JKR to have two characters with a similar situation (Snape and Ron) but perhaps she has given us Ron's reactions as an early hint towards Snape's past history. What do you guys think?


lkb - Jun 28, 2005 3:51 pm (#2012 of 2980)
ooooh, I am going to have to think about that one...give me a minute...lkb


dizzy lizzy - Jun 28, 2005 4:36 pm (#2013 of 2980)
Madam Pince: I think your ideas are quite good. For one thing something has to have triggered Snape to follow the path he is currently on.

Extreme poverty can be that trigger. Having been in that situation - poverty - and seen friends struggle with poverty and helped people in that situation, I have found it tends to overwhelm every other motivation you have in order to find and satisfy your basic needs.

I can easily see this happening to Snape and having that poverty (and the damage to your self esteem it does) being the trigger for all his future behaviour. Not the cause, just the trigger that sets his behaviour off.

Lizzy


Gina R Snape - Jun 28, 2005 6:01 pm (#2014 of 2980)
Yes, I've no doubt Snape's greying underpants were a symptom of need and not self-neglect. Particulary, we know the children have their washing done by the house elves. So it can't be that young Severus forgot to separate his wash. Whether his underpants were grey from poverty or because his parents couldn't be bothered to buy new ones almost doesn't matter if his resultant anger and resentment is the same.

But poverty does have a social impact on people and their psyches. I'm certain it would've made his desire to achieve and impress even stronger. He may have seen the DEs as a path toward it.


Weeny Owl - Jun 28, 2005 7:44 pm (#2015 of 2980)
1) His resentment of James, and also Harry. Neither James nor Harry ever had to worry about money, apparently. They can just go about their business being great Quidditch players and popular students without a care in the world about money, and not having to earn it, either. How galling that would be for someone who had superb magical talent, but nothing material to show for it.

But after seeing Harry's situation through Occlumency lessons, Snape would know Harry had nothing until he was taken to Diagon Alley.

Snape's family could have been poor, but the Pensieve scene was at the end of the school year, and who knows what condition anyone's undies are in after that amount of time. It's possible, I suppose, but even if his family was poor, that still doesn't give him the right to take it out on everyone else.

I am a Snape supporter in that I think he's on the side of good, but I'm also one who feels that he likes being nasty, cruel, and unfair, and no amount of poverty is an excuse to pick on his students.


Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 28, 2005 8:05 pm (#2016 of 2980)
Edited Jun 28, 2005 9:06 pm
The recent ideas on Snape's poverty are all very interesting. I agree that Snape's resentment of both James and Sirius many possible root causes including a resentment of his wealth. If the assumption that Snape's asociation with the Death Eaters was due in part to his resentment to he wealth possessed by both James and Sirius and his lack of wealth. Is it possible that Albus Dumbledore used promises of not only personal security but financial stability as well to encourage Severus to become a spy for the order?


Solitaire - Jun 28, 2005 8:51 pm (#2017 of 2980)
That doesn't sound like Dumbledore, to me, Nathan. I would think Dumbledore would want Snape to make the CHOICE on his own, because it is the right thing to do. Also, I'm not sure why, but I have always had the idea that Snape approached Dumbledore--for his own reasons--rather than the other way around. JM2K ...

Solitaire


Snuffles - Jun 28, 2005 11:59 pm (#2018 of 2980)
I agreen Solitaire. I have always had the impression that Snape approached DD for his own protection. He gave DD information which makes DD trust him.(I'm not totally convinced but that's just my opinion!)

I can't see DD promising anyone anything to be on the side of good, people have to want to be there. They have to believe what DD is doing is the right thing.


Chemyst - Jun 29, 2005 3:27 am (#2019 of 2980)
Edited Jun 29, 2005 5:01 am
Is it possible that Albus Dumbledore used promises of not only personal security but financial stability as well to encourage Severus to become a spy for the order? - Nathan Z.
While agreeing with Solitaire & Snuffles about explicit promises, I can't help but think some basic implications of working with the order would be involved in making that choice. While DD may not have promised riches, he probably did offer opportunity. Instead of giving Snape any outright guarantee of material goods, Snape may have had assurances of opportunity to earn respect, a supportive network, and financial stability for himself.

I guess what I'm trying to say is a bit like that old phrase about giving a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. DD could have promised Snape the latter. DD would have promised something, at least an opportunity to join, and probably a bit of protection, or there'd have been no choice to make.

He gave DD information which makes DD trust him. - Snuffles
Maybe. But actions often speak louder than words. It could also be that Snape saved DD's life, at great risk to his own. Any man as old as DD is bound to have had a few close calls by now. I'd guess that while passing secrets is a big +, there is probably a little more behind DD's trust than Snape, uber-snitch.


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 29, 2005 3:52 am (#2020 of 2980)
You're right, it doesn't sound like DD, Solitaire. He seems wise enough to know that if bribery was the cause for Snape to switch sides, then there's always a chance that a better offer may come along from the opposition. Whereas, if it was Snape's choice, as you suggest, it would be highly unlikely that he'd betray DD.


Madam Pince - Jun 29, 2005 5:59 am (#2021 of 2980)
... no amount of poverty is an excuse to pick on his students. --Weeny Owl

Oh, I agree Weeny. I am not saying it was an excuse. I just like to try to understand all they "whys and wherefores," that's all. If this theory is correct (and the odds are probably 90-10 that it's not) then at least we could potentially understand a bit better about what triggered Snape's initial resentment. That does not in any way translate to meaning that it's therefore OK for him to act like a git.

If I were ever on a jury, it would not carry much weight for me if the defense pleaded that the accused had suffered a bad childhood. I feel terribly for anyone who might be in that situation, and of course feel that we should do whatever we can to help them, but I also feel strongly that a reason is not an excuse -- we do still have choices, as Dumbledore keeps saying.

(Speaking of juries, Gina, your "Defense of Snape" for Accio! is superb! Great job! You are a talented writer.)

One other question I meant to ask, and maybe Gina ran across this in her "Defense" research -- is there somewhere a list of all the "bad" things that Snape has done throughout the books? I could go through again and compile one myself, but if one already exists I could save some time. I was just noting in reading back over the 700+ posts in this thread that there have been references to Snape as abusing children. I agree that he has not been the most pleasant of teachers, but I truly cannot see what he has done as being "abuse." The worst it could've resulted in was a low grade in class and possibly some hurt feelings -- bad? Yes. But I wouldn't classify it in the same category as Umbridge's cutting quill -- now that was abuse, to me. Anyway, does anyone know of such a list? Thanks!


Solitaire - Jun 29, 2005 6:13 am (#2022 of 2980)
I can see Dumbledore telling Snape that he would be welcome to live and teach at Hogwarts for as long as he wished in exchange for his help and loyalty and whatever else he did. I can also see him guaranteeing Snape that he would stand behind him and offer him friendship, just as long as Snape chose to remain loyal to the Order. Beyond that, I just do not see Dumbledore making any other kind of promises.

Regarding Snape's abuse of children, Madam Pince ... I think most of us are considering his treatment of kids in light of what is considered abuse or maltreatment in the educational system of today. The truth is that he would have been placed on probation for many of the things he has said/done to the kids. In some private schools--where things like tenure do not exist and one's contract is simply not renewed--I suspect he would have been history after the first year, if not the first semester. He might survive in a high school, but with his hostile manner toward children ... well, no principal or board I know would have retained him.

Solitaire


HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 29, 2005 12:32 pm (#2023 of 2980)
Edited Jun 29, 2005 1:34 pm
I would see something as serious as Snape leaving/defying Big V as a situation where DD would reassure Snape that he would be safe at HW. Snape seems keen enough to figure out the pros and cons on his own without needing a sweetened deal, don't you think so?

It seems as though he's offered similar (every situation varies slightly) invitations to both Trelawney (unbeknownst to her), Firenze, Hagrid, probably Filch (who else would take him on). The list probably goes on with those whom we don't know about yet.


Madam Pince - Jun 29, 2005 12:41 pm (#2024 of 2980)
The truth is that he would have been placed on probation for many of the things he has said/done to the kids. In some private schools--where things like tenure do not exist and one's contract is simply not renewed--I suspect he would have been history after the first year, if not the first semester. -- Solitaire

Really? I have been out of the loop for a long time -- when I was in school I had teachers that were almost as snippy as Snape, maybe not quite, but almost. And because Baby Pince is still too little, I haven't really had dealings with school systems today. So I guess I'm out of touch.

Yes, I think Snape is extremely harsh, but I choose to look at it as him taking the role of "drill sergeant." I know most people don't buy that ****cough - Solitaire! - cough*** and that's fine, too! I still luv you! I hope I'm right, though, I'll be so disappointed if he's just a git! That would seem too....I don't know....one-dimensional for JKR or something....


Ponine - Jun 29, 2005 4:54 pm (#2025 of 2980)
Edited Jun 29, 2005 5:55 pm
Madam Pince - I humbly disagree - I think he is just a git to his students. He goes out of his way to be cruel, even when turning a blind eye would have sufficed for the sake of 'double-agenting' (Like Hermione's teeth). And I honestly think that having him simply be a git, while working for the order would be much less one-dinemsional as opposed to the classic 'he never meant a word, it was all just an act, and it was for your own good even if you can't see it now'-routine.

Something just struck me as I was posting on the new thread concerning the characters becoming harsher - It is only a coincidence that Mrs. Robertson was dangling in the air, the spun upside down to reveal her undies, right?!?! It has nothing to do with - anyone else we know, right?

*Severus IS good, Severus IS good**


Madam Pince - Jun 29, 2005 4:59 pm (#2026 of 2980)
Edited Jun 29, 2005 6:02 pm
The comment about Hermione's teeth is the one thing I can't think of any even remotely reasonable excuse for. It can't be considered "drill sergeant-ish," it's just plain old mean.

I remember reading someone's post once about the Muggle lady being dangled upside-down by the DEs as being similar to Snape's situation in the "Memory" scene. I think they were speculating that perhaps Snape was actually there at the World Cup and was participating with the DEs as part of his spy-deal. Or, perhaps not as part of his spy-deal....bwahahahaha.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 29, 2005 10:15 pm (#2027 of 2980)
OK, got to say something here...probably unPC, but here goes.

"It can't be considered "drill sergeant-ish," it's just plain old mean." At the risk of the old saying, the ends justify the means; I know a lot of drill sergeants and their, hmm, means of getting things across, have saved a lot of peoples lives. I think Snape serves the same purpose in the lives of the young people he teaches. Life is not fair, candy-coated, or even nice. What better way for them to learn that, in a controlled enviroment (school), than in the "real" world, (Voldemort)? I actually think Snape may be doing our young people a good service.


Weeny Owl - Jun 29, 2005 10:52 pm (#2028 of 2980)
I would not totally disagree with you, Twinkling, except that there is no excuse for the comment he made to Hermione about her teeth. That isn't building character, and while the "real" world can be unkind, taunting a young girl about a physical characteristic is just plain mean.

The same can be said for other things he's said and done, although in general I do agree that while he's not nice, neither is life, so he does teach an object lesson.


frogface - Jun 30, 2005 2:28 am (#2029 of 2980)
I think Snape is a git, a heroic git who is fighting for the good of all wizardkind and placing himself at risk, but a git all the same. I know there are Snape defenders out there who look to explain away his actions with the idea that behind them all there are some good intentions, and on occasion there may be, but to be honest I think that Snape is basicly a very emotionally scarred person, and as a result he just isn't very nice.


Snuffles - Jun 30, 2005 2:44 am (#2030 of 2980)
Don't hold back frogface, say what you really think! Lol


frogface - Jun 30, 2005 2:47 am (#2031 of 2980)
hehe sorry, I'll go hide behind my soap box now! *blushes*


Herm oh ninny - Jun 30, 2005 6:03 am (#2032 of 2980)
Edited Jun 30, 2005 7:26 am
Right on frogface! I couldn't have said it any better. While I love Snape, I still agree that he is just plain old nasty most of the time. I agree with your "emotionally scarred" theory 100%. Based on what we saw when Harry was able to delve into his mind in OOTP, I think the abuse in his childhood has basically just messed him up for life!

P.S. I also happen to think that Kermit rocks!! Go Muppets!


Weeny Owl - Jun 30, 2005 10:12 am (#2033 of 2980)
A heroic git... that's a good way of putting it.

JKR herself has said Snape isn't nice. He doesn't HAVE to be nice, though. I truly believe he wants Voldemort defeated, but his reasons for it don't have to be sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows. He might just want Voldemort defeated for selfish reasons and not really give a knut about too many other people.


T Brightwater - Dec 27, 2004 10:48 am (#2034 of 2980)
Snape has only once laid a hand on a student that I can remember, (Harry after the Pensieve incident - were there any others that I missed?) and I agree that he was definitely provoked in that case. However, he's not a good teacher. McGonagall is a good teacher, because she's fair. Harry's been bullied all his life - does he really need any more of that from a teacher? Bullying only makes Neville do worse, and we've never ever heard Snape say anything positive to or about Hermione - even if he finds her irritating he should give credit where it's due. She's the only one who seems to be capable of the self-directed work he expects from his students, and he has never acknowledged it.

What I find hardest to understand or forgive in Snape is his obsessive vengefulness. He transposed his hatred of James onto a boy who had never done him any harm. He was gloatingly looking forward to seeing Sirius have his soul sucked out, and, whatever you think of Sirius, he didn't deserve _that_. (And he was hoping the same for Remus, and _he_ certainly didn't do anything to deserve it.)

I've heard many arguments that his treatment of Harry is part of his cover, but wouldn't it make more sense for him to try to make friends with Harry and gain his confidence? He'd get more information for Voldemort that way, or so he could argue if he were suspected by the DE's. Unless he's acting as a decoy for another DE...


Madam Pince - Jun 30, 2005 10:31 am (#2035 of 2980)
Edited Jun 30, 2005 11:37 am
I'm on TBE's side on this one. I think Snape's actions will end up saving some of the kids' lives, just as a drill sergeant's actions will save the lives of plenty of soldiers. My "plain old mean" applied only to Snape's "Hermione/teeth" comment, as Weeny noted. Try though I might, I can't come up with a way in which that particular comment will be helpful or will prod the kids into trying harder to learn or whatever. It just seemed spiteful.

But almost all of his other comments/actions (that I can think of off-hand, anyway), I can see how they could be viewed as pushing the kids to do better in class. I know that some feel that this style is not a particularly effective or even acceptable means of teaching, and maybe it's not. It's been utilized in military training for some time, though, and one might consider that what JKR's characters are going through now is, in effect, military training for the "war" with Voldemort that is yet to come. Some of the kids are potential soldiers, and some are not, just as in our world. (Look at how Neville eventually responded in DA classes, when he was "motivated" by the threat of the DEs' escape from Azkaban -- it's just a matter of finding the proper motivation.)

That being said, I don't disagree that Snape is probably also emotionally scarred from something in his past, and it therefore makes it even easier for him to be unpleasant (and contributes to the vengefulness that TBrightwater mentions.) That just makes him more ideally suited for the position of Drill Sergeant, though, and may even be one of the reasons Dumbledore hired him as a Professor in the first place! Nobody could really be said to like a Drill Sergeant, but he/she certainly fills a necessary role in military training.

There's no question Snape goes above-and-beyond in the unpleasant department, but I still cling to the hope that his efforts will end up saving some lives! (I still think that Snape's initial confrontation with Harry in SS - What is a bezoar? etc. - would've been very helpful to Harry in going through the obstacles at the end when he was trying to find the Stone, had Harry been paying attention and retained some of the information!)


T Brightwater - Jun 30, 2005 11:00 am (#2036 of 2980)
Madam Pince, you brought up a good point - Neville can work hard and make rapid progress when he's motivated. Unfortunately, Snape's bullying is destructive, not motivational. If Harry had treated Neville the way Snape does, I doubt he'd have learned much.

I also don't think that basic training is generally a good model for teachers to follow. There may be some students who respond well to it, but I haven't seen any positive results among Snape's students. They'd have done as well or, in some cases, better, if they'd just worked from the book and followed the "recipes." The most important thing Snape has taught Harry is the Expelliarmus charm, which was outside of class.


Liz Mann - Jun 30, 2005 12:12 pm (#2037 of 2980)
Edited Jun 30, 2005 1:15 pm
But almost all of his other comments/actions (that I can think of off-hand, anyway), I can see how they could be viewed as pushing the kids to do better in class.

What about when he deliberately knocked Harry's finished potion off the table and then gave him zero marks?

I think Snape, while he may be on the right side, is not a nice person and his teaching methods are cruel, biased and upsetting for his students. He's had Neville almost in tears before now with no visible concience. (Although there was a teacher at my old school who did this once to a boy I didn't know. My Mum saw it and didn't approve at all.) Snape said he's come to expect high marks from his OWL students, but would those students have done half as well if Snape had supervised the exam or their out-of-class studying? Harry himself was thinking to himself that he felt he'd done well without Snape breathing down his neck.

Snape has always been spiteful. He might be likeable in some ways, for example he's cunning, and it was his idea to make Lockhart think they wanted him to go into the Chamber (the only time I've ever really appreciated Snape ). But his treatement of Harry is completely out of order. Since being at the school Harry has done quite a few things to get on Snape's nerves (for example setting Sirius free and mouthing off to him) but Snape was treating Harry badly long before any of that.

Changing subject, it has been wondered A LOT of times whether Snape might be a vampire. I have no idea what the latest on this topic is, but I was thinking - he can't be a true vampire because he's perfectly fine out in daylight (unless J.K. has changed this fact). But could it be possible that he's half-vampire, like Hagrid's half-giant? This would explain a few things, for example his appearance (sallow skin etc), his temperment, his parents fighting in the pensieve memory and why said fight scared young Snape so much, why Snape was so immersed in the dark arts before he came to school, and also what James meant when he said, "Well, it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean." It could be part of the reason why the Marauders hated Snape so much. They didn't mind Lupin being a werewolf, but just because a person is prejudiced against one type of being, doesn't mean they're prejudiced against all beings who are different from themselves. It could also explain how Voldemort got Snape on his side. Voldemort attracts the support of a lot of non-humans and part-humans because he offers them the rights that most wizards deny them and, unlike those wizards, doesn't judge them (apparently) for being what they are.

Does anyone else think this is a possibility?


Solitaire - Jun 30, 2005 12:46 pm (#2038 of 2980)
Liz, one of my most cherished hopes is that Snape turns out to be a Vampire! I love all of the little bat references Jo has made about him in the books. I've often thought that could be connected to his remark about putting a stopper in death. A Vampire, while not really living, isn't actually dead ... is he? He's sort of undead, if there is such a thing.

As for Snape as teacher ... I heartily agree with T Brightwater in post #2034. I couldn't have said it better myself!

Solitaire


frogface - Jun 30, 2005 12:52 pm (#2039 of 2980)
JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004 Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so.

Not sure what to make of this, could be a bluff, could be an honest answer, but I thought I'd bring it to everyone's attention!


Liz Mann - Jun 30, 2005 1:09 pm (#2040 of 2980)
Edited Jun 30, 2005 2:10 pm
Sounds like it could be an awkward answer to me, or at least it would if it was said aloud. As an answer through a web chat... I don't really know what to make of it.

There does seem to be a lot of evidence to suggest that Snape is a vampire or half-vampire, though. As Solitare said, there's all the bat references as well as the things that I said before.


Madam Pince - Jun 30, 2005 1:30 pm (#2041 of 2980)
What about when he deliberately knocked Harry's finished potion off the table and then gave him zero marks? -- Liz

A classic "Drill Sergeant" move. The potion would've gotten a low grade, anyway, since it was done incorrectly. Getting a zero would serve to make Harry have to work even harder to pull his grade up to passing, which could only be a good thing, right? If, that is, Harry chooses to try to improve. Therein lies the rub of that teaching style. If the students only become apathetic, rather than getting mad and feeling a bit of "I'll show him that I can do it right!" then it's not too effective. I don't feel that Snape's students are apathetic. Scared to death of him, maybe, but not apathetic. Hermione seems to pick up a great deal in that class, because she knows Snape means business and she therefore applies herself. (She figured out the whole werewolf thing, too.) Just because Snape doesn't sing her praises doesn't make him a bad teacher, I don't think.

But anyway, we should probably move off this subject because I'm pretty sure we'll never reach a consensus! Let's just say Snape can be one unpleasant guy and leave it at that! JKR will sort it all out eventually!

About the vampire thing -- I've thought about that a lot, too. There are so many references throughout the books that it almost seems like it has to have something to it. And the kicker for me was when Lupin made that comment to Harry and Ron about "needing to have a word about my vampire essay," right there in the hallway in front of Snape (when they had the confrontation about the Marauders' Map.) Tee-hee! Was that a little payback for the werewolf essay?


Liz Mann - Jun 30, 2005 2:13 pm (#2042 of 2980)
A classic "Drill Sergeant" move. The potion would've gotten a low grade, anyway, since it was done incorrectly.

I wasn't talking about when Harry missed a line of the instructions and did the potion wrong. I was talking about when he finished the potion (having done it correctly) and handed it in, then when he turned around Snape knocked it off the table on purpose and then failed Harry (this was after the pensieve).


Weeny Owl - Jun 30, 2005 3:03 pm (#2043 of 2980)
I don't see Snape as a vampire, but I do wonder if he has a bat as his Patronus. Chances are he's not an Animagus, but if he is one, he could be a bat. That'd be an interesting way to snoop on Death Eaters.

I think he was just getting revenge for Harry going into the Pensieve, and knocking Harry's potion off the table was a way of doing it without resorting to something that could get him fired, such as hexing Harry or killing him or whatever.


Madam Pince - Jun 30, 2005 4:35 pm (#2044 of 2980)
Oh, I see Liz. I missed that one. I agree with Weeny, though; it was revenge for Harry's being nosy and dipping into the Pensieve. Not nice, not nice at all. But again, just a teeny bit understandable.

OK, OK, I'll stop now. Snape stinks.


Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 30, 2005 7:22 pm (#2045 of 2980)
There is an expression: hurt people hurt. That is how I see Snape. He is a miserable git so he tries to make everyone else miserable. Some people have never been happy and never will. LPO


Solitaire - Jun 30, 2005 9:27 pm (#2046 of 2980)
Yes, Madam Pince ... he does stink! Perhaps he is the "stinky" part of Harry's alchemical journey! LOL Alas, I do not even think his business with Harry's potion is understandable. Teachers are adults and should behave accordingly. We are not supposed to seek petty revenge on our students when they bug us. Do I understand why he is bugged? Yes. It still does not excuse him.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Jul 1, 2005 4:46 am (#2047 of 2980)
I'm with you, Solitaire. Harry's been hurt, too; so have Remus, Sirius, Hagrid, and Neville in their various ways. Each of them has chosen a different way of dealing with it. Snape's got some good examples to follow - Dumbledore and McGonagall for starters - but he has made the choice to hold on to his anger and let it fester.

I suppose that could be what he's really teaching Harry (and us): what happens when you allow resentment to consume you.


HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 1, 2005 5:25 am (#2048 of 2980)
I suppose that could be what he's really teaching Harry (and us): what happens when you allow resentment to consume you.

Excellent point, T Brightwater. I like that very much.


Choices - Jul 1, 2005 8:26 am (#2049 of 2980)
Edited Jul 1, 2005 9:28 am
Someone mentioned (a few post back) the bat references around Snape. I tend to believe they are symbolic of the way Snape operates. Like a bat, he does his hunting under cover of darkness. He is a loner and secretive. Perhaps the bat is indicative of his spy activities, rather than a vampire reference.


Liz Mann - Jul 1, 2005 9:00 am (#2050 of 2980)
Yes, that's the way in which J.K. uses them, but she's often cunning like that. Her descriptions often have double meanings.
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Lina - Jul 1, 2005 11:54 am (#2051 of 2980)
T Brightwater: and we've never ever heard Snape say anything positive to or about Hermione - even if he finds her irritating he should give credit where it's due.

While I agree that we never saw Snape giving credit to Hermione, I don't agree that it means that he doesn't. After all, I just believe that he gave her correct marks, and probably always the best, on her exams or assignments.


Steve Newton - Jul 1, 2005 1:05 pm (#2052 of 2980)
From Lucius's comments in COS, I think, Hermione bested Draco is all courses. Snape must have given her good marks.

I do remember one backhanded compliment from Snape to Hermione. Can't remember which book but Neville gets a potion right and Snape says that at least Hermione Granger new the correct way. (This is grossly misquoted but I don't have my books handy.)


Madam Pince - Jul 1, 2005 1:15 pm (#2053 of 2980)
There's a similar quote in OoP, but it's from McGonnagal, not Snape. It's after McGonnagal is chastising Harry for rubbing Umbridge the wrong way, and she asks him if he realizes exactly what Umbridge is there for. Harry replies with a very truncated version of Hermione's translation of Umbridge's start-of-term speech (when Hermione had to explain it to Harry and Ron because they glazed over and weren't paying attention), and McGonnagal gives Harry a sharp glance and says "Well, I'm glad you listen to Hermione Granger at any rate."

Tee-hee. Can't put much over on ol' McGonnagal, can you?

There's probably a similar Snape comment, too, though, Steve; I just don't recall it.


Solitaire - Jul 1, 2005 1:27 pm (#2054 of 2980)
Choices, I've said for months (years?) that I think Snape's patronus is a bat. There are so many bat references to him. Hm ... Batman, anyone?

Solitaire


Steve Newton - Jul 1, 2005 3:38 pm (#2055 of 2980)
Ya know, Madam Pince, I have been known to confuse names.


Solitaire - Jul 1, 2005 4:47 pm (#2056 of 2980)
Snape made a backhanded slam about Hermione to Remus when he took the kids to the staff room to practice on the boggart: "Possibly no one's warned you, Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom. I would advise you not to entrust him with anything difficult. Not unless Miss Granger is hissing instructions in his ear."

Is that the one you meant?

Solitaire


rambkowalczyk - Jul 1, 2005 7:23 pm (#2057 of 2980)
This happened shortly after Snape's worst memory. During class Snape acted as if Harry were invisible. Harry found it was an improvement and was able to make the Invigoration draught quite easily. He had just turned away when he heard a smashing noise; Malfoy gave a gleeful yell of laughter. Harry whipped around again. His potion sample lay in pieces on the floor, and Snape was surveying him with a look of gloating pleasure.

Snape is paying Harry back for looking in the Pensieve by accidentally knocking over his potion. Or maybe Snape said something in Draco's presence about how careless Harry is when delivering his potions that its a wonder an accident hasn't happened. What I'm suggesting is Draco was the one who knocked Harry's potion down and Snape chose to ignore it as he didn't "see" it. Either way Snape is vindictive.


Madam Pince - Jul 1, 2005 10:27 pm (#2058 of 2980)
Oh, I bet you've got it Solitaire! I remember that one now! Good memory, Steve!

And well done, too, rambkowalczyk! I like that even better! (of course!) It makes more sense, actually, than Snape doing it himself -- that could potentially put him in a bad position professionally, whereas if he makes the "suggestion" to Draco, Draco breaks it, and Snape chooses to see it as an "accident," then he's safe all around. Very Slytherin of him....


Steve Newton - Jul 2, 2005 11:17 am (#2059 of 2980)
Solitaire, yes!, or course that's the one that I meant! (Trying to look sincere.)


Chemyst - Jul 3, 2005 1:34 pm (#2060 of 2980)
Edited Jul 3, 2005 2:45 pm
With less than 2 weeks until HBP, I've been rereading the series. Last night, reading in GF31 when the champions are meeting with their parents prior to the final task, I found, "Viktor Krum was over in the corner conversing with his dark-haired mother and father in rapid Bulgarian. He had inherited his father's hooked nose." The "hooked nose" stood out.

I did a search and found this by Weeny Owl: I've been reading GoF, and while we know Viktor Krum's parents were with him at the end of the Tri-Wizard Tournament, I was intrigued by how much his description resembles Snape's. Dark hair, hooked nose, sallow skin, rounded shoulders... maybe they're distant cousins. (#413 archived Snape thread Nov 11, 2003 to Oct 22, 2004) If this was discussed after that, I did not find it.

During the occlumency lesson when Harry broke into Snape's mind he saw a hooked-nosed man shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in the corner.

Now while it is true that family members don't have to look alike, JKR has made a point of saying Harry does resemble his parents, the Malfoys have similar traits, and the Hog's Head barman had a familiar look about him. And here we have dark-haired and hooked-nose pairings.

Anyway, all this got me to wondering about Karkaroff. Karkaroff gives Viktor special treatment. We have always been led to believe it was just because of his quidditch skills, but what if there were a family tie to explain it? At the Yule Ball, Harry finds Karkaroff talking to Snape and his reply is: Then flee; I will make your excuses. Also, the day Karkaroff interrupted the potions class to show something (we find later it was the darkening mark) on his arm, Snape tells him they'll talk later. Again we assume this is because of the old DE involvement. Aren't they reacting like annoying relatives? Why would Karkaroff go to Snape for help or think that Snape would help him?

And we have been told that Viktor will be mentioned in at least one of the final books. Hermione kept his name mentioned in OP by writing him letters. And then there is that frustrating answer about Luna Lovegood that Snape does not have a daughter. Well, Viktor is no Viktoria.


Ponine - Jul 3, 2005 4:14 pm (#2061 of 2980)
You know Chemyst, that is rather interesting... hm... I have never been a big believer of Snape actually being a vampire, but (flashing my horrid geography and ignorance - I apologize in advance if I am waayy off) all these comparisons - well, vampires are closely tied to Romania, which are next door to Bulgaria - lol - Snape could indeed be a half-blood Romanian Prince! No, this is not where I was going with this at all, but I really think that you may have a point in Snape actually being related to some of the Durmstrang people we have met, and his knowledge of the dark arts, which we know to be great at a very young age, may be a lot easier to explain if he has grown up with a strong Durmstrang influence...?


Gina R Snape - Jul 3, 2005 5:34 pm (#2062 of 2980)
Edited Jul 3, 2005 6:50 pm
Well, I don't know about Snape being related to Karkaroff or Krum. But it sure brings an amusing twist to the fandom regarding Snape and Hermione considering Hermione dated Krum.

I am betting Krum will be one of those people who the dark side is counting on but who has no interest in the dark arts. His flying/seeker skills and possibly his knowledge of Karkaroff and connexions might come in handy to the Order.

With so few days until the next book, I'd just like to remind everyone how easy it is to criticise Snape and how reluctant many are to find any good in him. I have a feeling he will be written even harsher and meaner in HbP because the pressure will really be upon him. He has possibly one of the most difficult jobs in the Order, and living in the middle as he does will take a toll on him.

I look forward to learning more about his past, and how far he's come since then. I have a feeling we are really going to learn a lot more about Snape's past, or at least what he's up to now.

And I'd like to remind everyone of my little prediction that it was Snape who overheard the prophesy. I'm not sure we will revisit that night specifically. But since I believe it's part of the reason why DD trusts him, I do think we'll learn about what Snape did in his past to gain DD's trust.

And I'm hoping we'll get him to call Hermione an insufferable know-it-all at least once more. Especially, I look forward to him saying it as a backward compliment as she waltzes into his Advanced Potions class.

Oh, and of course I think DD will force Snape to accept Harry into Advanced Potions, which will annoy Snape to no end.


Ponine - Jul 3, 2005 5:55 pm (#2063 of 2980)

*Giggles** OH, how I would love to see poor old Severus's face as Hermione, the glowing bride (I would even marry her off to Krum rather than Ron for this), throwing her round arms around Snape's neck, squealing 'Dad! or Pops? What should it be, now that we are family??' ahem, I might be getting to tired for this......

Oh, and Gina, I completely agree with you, I truly feel we will see a 'crescendo' of 'Snapeisms' and dubious behavior, both due to the build-up for his great coming-out, as well as the tension between him and Harry.


Weeny Owl - Jul 3, 2005 7:49 pm (#2064 of 2980)
The odd thing is, Gina, that while many of Snape's comments I find reprehensible, I like him. I think many of the things he says are funny, although not funny to everyone, and I do think Dumbledore isn't very respectful to him on occasion.

I've thought more and more about Snape and Krum being related. I doubt if he's Snape's son, but cousin or nephew isn't out of the realm of possibilities. I just think it would be nice to see Snape have a relative who is a decent person, and maybe we could see more of the good in Snape.


Gina R Snape - Jul 3, 2005 7:59 pm (#2065 of 2980)
Yes, Weeny. I too find him very funny at times. He has a dark, biting humour. What other kind could he have?!


Liz Mann - Jul 4, 2005 5:28 am (#2066 of 2980)
Edited Jul 4, 2005 6:28 am
While I think Snape is a horrible old meanie () I too think he is funny at times and I believe he has some good qualities - clearly he is brave or he wouldn't be risking all by playing the double agent; he is very loyal to Dumbledore and he seems to respect his fellow teachers.


Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2005 7:22 am (#2067 of 2980)
I think Snape and McGonagall have an interesting relationship. They seem to respect each other yet they defiantly compete against each other. When McGonagall returned from St. Mungos I thought Snape was very glad to see her and respectful of her. LPO


Emiko - Jul 5, 2005 10:10 am (#2068 of 2980)
I too believe Krum could be Snapes nephew or something else, but probably not his son.

Snape and McGonagall both prize competence and wit, and they're both competent wizards, therefore, they get along fine. McGonagall's very fair all the time, so Snape would never feel like he's getting the short end of the stick, and since he doesn't have a vendetta against her (like he does Harry) I see no reason why they shouldn't get along.


Lina - Jul 5, 2005 11:18 am (#2069 of 2980)
I am just rereading the OotP and something stroke me. The Ministry passed the Educational Decree Number 22 to ensure that, in the event of the current Headmaster being unable to provide a candidate for a teaching post, the Ministry should select an appropriate person.

As we know, Snape applied for that job that year as any other year. Did DD really think that he would have been worse than anybody chosen by the Ministry? The Ministry was practically in the open war with DD at that time. What was DD so afraid of that he didn't want to take a chance and appoint the post to Snape. I surely don't think that it is only Snape being nasty to students...

Although I like the idea of Snape being family connected to Krum or Karakoff or both...


Gina R Snape - Jul 5, 2005 12:37 pm (#2070 of 2980)
My strong suspicion was that they (the Ministry) would have found some position to fill. DD probably felt better it be DADA than Potions. Especially, putting Snape in the DADA position would make it very very very hard for him to take it away again after the Year of Umbridge was up, depending on what happened in the ensuing academic year.


Liz Mann - Jul 5, 2005 2:47 pm (#2071 of 2980)
He probably thought that Umbridge would leave Hogwarts as soon as the Ministry realised Voldemort was really back, whereas appointing Snape would mean appointing him permanantly.


Weeny Owl - Jul 5, 2005 8:33 pm (#2072 of 2980)
JKR said something about Dumbledore thinking that the Defense position would bring out the worst in Snape, and it may not be that he thought a Ministry-appointed teacher would be better than what the Defense position might do to Snape. Perhaps it was Snape's well-being he was more concerned about.

Plus that, if any of this is something to help Snape in his spying efforts, he could honestly complain about Dumbledore not giving him his coveted teaching position, and by doing that, no one would suspect that Snape was actually loyal to Dumbledore. Snape may not really even want the position. It may have been something cooked up between Dumbledore and him.


Herm-own-ninny Weezly - Jul 5, 2005 9:15 pm (#2073 of 2980)
Oh, I really like that idea, Weeny Owl! It's so simple, but it would probably work on Voldemort and the Death Eaters... any reason to hate Dumbledore, and they will join right in. Snape could even say that Dumbledore might suspect he's a Death Eater, and that's why he won't give him the post. Something along the lines of, "I'll just need to try even harder to hide my devotion to you, Master, though it will be difficult."

On the other hand, I could see Snape wanting the job so he could have the pleasure of cursing the students like Moody (Crouch) did. That seems like something he would enjoy...


Lina - Jul 5, 2005 11:19 pm (#2074 of 2980)
Thank you people, you all made sense.

But you, Weeny Owl, made me think of something else. It is not impossible that Voldemort wanted Snape to teach DADA and that he gave him a specific assignment on that matter. So he has to pretend that he wants it, he wants the rumors about him wishing that position, but in fact he doesn't want it. Oh, that sounds so great!


Herm oh ninny - Jul 6, 2005 6:09 am (#2075 of 2980)
Ooohh Lina, I like that idea! I refuse to believe that Snape is a Death Eater. I don't know why, but I just know that deep down he is NOT evil. Plus, I beleive that Dumbledore would know if Snape was double crossing him. He seems to know EVERYTHING.


Gina R Snape - Jul 6, 2005 10:33 am (#2076 of 2980)
Edited Jul 6, 2005 11:34 am
I don't think Snape would actually use a forbidden curse on the kids. But I do wonder if he'd get so carried away in his love of the subject that he'd forget the 'defence' part and teach some of the dark arts!

In any event, I could easily see him get so into his teaching that'd go off way over the kids' heads. Sort of like a maths teacher who writes things on the board and before you know it they are solving complex equations and the students are sitting there bug-eyed, going "huh?"


timrew - Jul 9, 2005 2:53 pm (#2077 of 2980)
Gina:- But I do wonder if he'd get so carried away in his love of the subject that he'd forget the 'defence' part and teach some of the dark arts!

You might have a point there, Gina. And this could be why Dumbledore doesn't want to put Snape 'in harm's way' as DADA teacher.

As Weeny said.........JKR said something about Dumbledore thinking that the Defense position would bring out the worst in Snape

'The worst' in this case could mean that Dumbledore thinks Snape might get carried away and teach his class some of 'The Dark Arts'.


Madam Pince - Jul 11, 2005 6:11 pm (#2078 of 2980)
Gina, will you be permitted to adjust your defense of Snape at the Accio! conference to include any new information from HBP, or do you have to present exactly what you've already written? (Not that it's not fantastic just as it is, but I was dreaming today about what new info we might possibly get, and how it might really change/add strength to your defense.)


Gina R Snape - Jul 12, 2005 7:37 am (#2079 of 2980)
Well, my defence is nothing compared to the presenters. I am pretty sure everyone is sort of panicking about how HbP will impact their presentations. I think I will be able to modify mine, if I am asked to speak. I'm still waiting to hear definitively from them if I will be called as a witness.


mooncalf - Jul 13, 2005 4:13 pm (#2080 of 2980)
Wonderful avatar, Gina. I keep clicking on it to get another look. Where did you find it?


Gina R Snape - Jul 14, 2005 7:55 am (#2081 of 2980)
Thanks, Mooncalf. I'm sorry to say I do not know who is the artist. Someone sent it to me. But if I find out, I will let you know. Usually, when I change my avatar to fan art, I put the reference/credit in the line under my name.

So, any bets on Snape being the half blood prince? *snicker* Wouldn't THAT be something? And, no, I have noooo idea. Pur speculation, I promise.


Madam Pince - Jul 14, 2005 9:59 am (#2082 of 2980)
Love2Travel speculated on the HBP thread that Snape might be the half blood prince (there's a sort-of informal poll going on there.) That WOULD really be a hoot! Who knows, anything's possible!


Ms Amanda - Jul 14, 2005 1:06 pm (#2083 of 2980)
I was discussing with a coworker today one theory that Snape will be the Half-blood Prince. Not sure I believe it, but here goes:

Snape's name comes from a town, and in the town there is a castle - Snape castle. The former owners of Snape castle? The Nevilles. One Neville in particular is known as the king maker.

So, from there, we spiraled into a theory that it would be wonderful if that detail led Snape to be the half-blood prince.

Hmm... I'd love to relive the debate here, but obviously, there are holes that need plugged up in the tiny speculation my coworker made. Help me by sending dungbombs my way! I need to fertilize my plants to make them look nice, for company is coming!


Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 14, 2005 2:25 pm (#2084 of 2980)
Ms. Amanda the Neville you are referring to as the "Kingmaker" is Sir. Richard Neville the 16th Earl of Warwick who was killed at the Battle of Barnet in 1471.


Chemyst - Jul 14, 2005 3:12 pm (#2085 of 2980)
Ms. Amanda the Neville you are referring to as the "Kingmaker" is Sir. Richard Neville the 16th Earl of Warwick who was killed at the Battle of Barnet in 1471.

Nathan, please tell me you had to look that up!


Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 14, 2005 4:00 pm (#2086 of 2980)
Edited Jul 14, 2005 5:15 pm
Chemyst, I had to look it up but, it was not diificult to find I just finished a paper on, which, Lancastrians and Yorkists had a motive to murder Edward V and his brother Richard duke of York in the Tower of London so I had my material readily at hand.

But, I find the idea of Snape being the HBP most fascinating, it would be quite ironic for the Head of Slytherin House to be a half-blood.


Solitaire - Jul 14, 2005 9:21 pm (#2087 of 2980)
Well, the heir of Slytherin was a half-blood, so it wouldn't shock me to learn the HBP was Snape. To be honest, Lily's response in the pensieve scene when Snape called her a mudblood ...

Lily blinked. "Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus."

... has always kind of niggled at me ... as if she might have known something about him. "Lily blinked" makes me think she was shocked at this comment coming from Snape. Why would she be shocked? Did she, perhaps, know that Snape was also not a pure-blood? And her response seems born from hurt ... not something she would say under normal circumstances. Just rambling ...

Solitaire


mooncalf - Jul 14, 2005 9:35 pm (#2088 of 2980)
Edited by Jul 14, 2005 10:36 pm
Actually, neither his remark nor her response ever seemed that surprising to me.

I think that any teenage girl would blink - at the very least - if a classmate called her a four letter word while she was trying to help him.

And as for poor Severus using that kind of language - well, I think that teenage boys are quite capable of being crude, rude and thoughtless, especially if they are trying to save face in front of their peers. The situation was pretty painful; I don't find it surprising that he lashed out at the wrong person. After all, Harry spends half of the book lashing out at the wrong people. Pain and anger can make people do stupid things.

Of course, I have missed some pretty obvious clues before now. :-)


Solitaire - Jul 15, 2005 8:24 am (#2089 of 2980)
There is something about that scene which makes me feel Snape's response to Lily was wholly unexpected by her. It's a feeling so strong that I've never been able to shake it. As for "poor Snape" ... no comment! LOL

Solitaire


Gina R Snape - Jul 15, 2005 8:50 am (#2090 of 2980)
Aaaah. Just a few hours before MORE SNAPE. Oh, yeah, and the rest of the Potterverse too...


Madam Pince - Jul 15, 2005 1:35 pm (#2091 of 2980)
Edited Jul 15, 2005 2:38 pm
I got the feeling from that scene that Snape and Lily were definitely acquainted, and more so than just fellow students who pass in the hallways. (Anyone who knows me, knows my pet theory is that Snape and Lily are step-siblings, but that's elsewhere in threads -- search the words "Dad Evans" in the archived Snape thread from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 6, 2003 if you're interested in the whole long theory.) That scene was one of the reasons I got started on that crazy angle in the first place.

C'mon Solitaire, you know you really love him, deep down. Methinks thou dost protest too much!


Solitaire - Jul 15, 2005 10:18 pm (#2092 of 2980)
LOL Madam Pince! You're so funny!


Kip Carter - Aug 2, 2005 10:44 am (#2093 of 2980)
This thread was closed down during the sixteen day period surrounding the release of Book Six. It is now opened for posts.


charlie simmons - Aug 2, 2005 6:54 pm (#2094 of 2980)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is for those who have now read the HBP--obscure ideas, but kind of favorable towards the poor old greaseball, so I thought I'd post here.

If Snape is still on the oop side, could he have been given the task of slyly helping Harry all year?

1. He pays special attention to Harry in DADA class (possibly to taunt him, but...all he really says is "hear, let me show you", and Harry responds with a very James/Sirius like display "there's no need to call me sir, professor") to teach him silent spells, and later, in the duel, refers again to his need to know them ("blocked again and again, and again, until you learn to keep your mind blocked and your mouth shut)

2. He doesn't report the septumsepra incident or truly insist on getting his book back, though he recognized it. Maybe he planted it for Harry to recieve in the first place? 3. Is there any possible way that there might have been something in the old files that he had Harry sort through in detention that Harry might need to know? If the files he was going through were current to the years James/Sirius attended school, might there be other important players mentioned in them? All in all, it was kind of a gentle detention by Snape standards. He made Ron clean potties, didn't he? "You'll find some familiar names in them...their deeds will live on..." sarcastic and callous on the surface, and would fool anyone over hearing... I know these are really vague, but Harry is so indiscrete through the book, that if Snape was to help him and keep his cover, he couldn't do it very directly. Harry comments loudly about Snape and Mundungus being on the same side in class in front of Malfoy (Snape hears him and punishes him for it), and goes off loudly about Mundungus in the bar after catching him with stolen goods, in front of Rosemerta, who's been Imperiused and other shady characters, discussing the order's headquarters. He also can't do occulmency.

Probably farfetched, but just ideas.

Alot of the "evil" Snape evidence is only really given through Harry's eyes--there are repeated references to Harry's tendencies to blame Snape because it's easier than facing other realities. Harry's also not the most honest character ever written. He usually has good motives for not telling the truth, but the fact is, he does it really often. Can we as readers believe his version of events unconditionally? Or will other versions of the same events come to light in book 7?


Choices - Aug 3, 2005 9:27 am (#2095 of 2980)
Edited Aug 3, 2005 10:32 am
It is interesting that when Snape confronts Harry about using the sectumsempra spell on Draco, he says he didn't know Harry knew such "dark magic". If Snape didn't create the sectumsempra spell, from whom did he learn it? Was Eileen Prince into "dark magic" and taught it to him? Or did he learn it from someone who was at Hogwarts at the same time he was? If Snape did create it, did he also create the countercurse for it - the one that sounded like a song?? I think Snape's mother would have been at Hogwarts about the same time as Tom Riddle. Do you think she might have been one of his followers and learned dark magic from him?


mooncalf - Aug 3, 2005 11:29 am (#2096 of 2980)
Interesting thought, Choices. The timing certainly seems to be right, but if Eileen Prince was a Death Eater, would she have married a muggle? Or maybe she turned to the dark side when that muggle started treating her so badly.

I think it more likely that Snape turned to the dark side after years of watching how badly that muggle treated his mother, I do get the impression that he hated his father; he didn't change his name as completely as Voldemort did, but he did try to renounce his father's name.

And I thought that the HBP said that he invented the Sectusempra curse, along with all the other addendums in the potions book. Am I remembering that wrong?


popkin - Aug 3, 2005 12:44 pm (#2097 of 2980)
Was it Sirius who said Snape entered Hogwarts knowing more dark magic than any of the older students? Someone taught him at home, and it was most likely his mother. She probably also taught him to think for himself which enabled him to tweak the potions in his textbook and to make up his own hexes and spells.

Regardless of Snape's motivation, I'm sure he wants Harry to defeat Voldemort. So, he'll help him to do it. I don't know whether Snape is out for himself or if he's really Dumbledore's man through and through, but I'm sure he's not truly loyal to Voldemort. If he were, he would have killed Dumbledore and left Hogwarts a long time ago.


Liz Mann - Aug 3, 2005 1:12 pm (#2098 of 2980)
If he were, he would have killed Dumbledore and left Hogwarts a long time ago.

I don't think he would, because a Death Eater never does anything unless he can see the personal gain in doing so. There was never anything to be gained by killing Dumbledore before Voldemort returned, and after he returned he was spying for him most likely.

However, I too am dubious that Snape is really on the Dark Side. There are two reasons for this, one of which I know has been mentioned before:

1) I can't imagine Dumbledore pleading for his life. It seems so much more believable that he would beg Snape to kill him rather than be killed himself.

2) Why did he show Fudge the Dark Mark on his arm in the hospital wing in book four? Why did he make such a blatent effort to convince Fudge that his master was back if he was still on his master's side? I'm sure he didn't feel Dumbledore would want him to, because I don't think Dumbledore would have.

On the other hand, why did he so readily make the Unbreakable Curse in the first place if he was innocent? Why didn't he try and talk his way out of it?


popkin - Aug 3, 2005 1:26 pm (#2099 of 2980)
It reads like Snape actually wanted Narcissa to suggest the Unbreakable Curse, and he tricked her into coming up with the idea. I don't know why he wanted to make the oath, but I'm certain it was his plan all along.


Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 3, 2005 3:21 pm (#2100 of 2980)
I have a hard time with Snape. Killing Dumbledore is horrible. So much depends on him. Dumbledore is far more important than Snape or Malfoy and he knows it. Dumbledore likes to control things. He does not always tell people what he is doing. By allowing himself to be killed it is the ultimate in letting go of that control. If Snape was Dumbledore's man, he should have died for him. LPO
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Madam Pince - Aug 3, 2005 3:34 pm (#2101 of 2980)
Dumbledore is far more important than Snape or Malfoy and he knows it.

Maybe, or maybe not. Perhaps Dumbledore feels (oops... felt..) that having someone undercover cozied up right next to Voldemort at final battle time -- someone whom Voldemort trusts and would therefore not be on his guard with -- would be more valuable than having Dumbledore himself around, who Voldemort clearly knows is on the "other side" and would be very wary of. Any military strategist will tell you that the element of surprise can sometimes be more valuable than superior firepower.

I very much fear that Snape will end up dying for Dumbledore, anyway. I see one very likely scenario having Snape sacrifice himself in order to leave the path to Voldemort open for Harry, and no Order member will step to Snape's aid because they all believe him to be a traitor. Only after he's axed will they realize that he really was doing as Dumbledore had asked. ***sniff, sniff*** Posthumous Order of Merlin, First Class, and all that....


Liz Mann - Aug 3, 2005 4:07 pm (#2102 of 2980)
I think Dumbledore would consider Snape more important, perhaps simply because he's so much younger. Snape's somewhere around 40, which is far too young to die, and Dumbledore's 150 and has lived his life. Besides, yes Dumbledore was important but now Harry's grown up and ready to take on what's coming alone. In any case, Snape is a friend and Dumbledore is the kind of guy who would die for his friends.

If Snape was Dumbledore's man, he should have died for him.

Dumbledore probably argued with him endlessly about it, if Snape is innocent.


Finn BV - Aug 3, 2005 4:22 pm (#2103 of 2980)
Edited Aug 3, 2005 5:23 pm
That must have been the conversation Hagrid overheard was all about. Dumbledore did say in Chap. "The Cave" to Harry that he [Harry] was far more important because he had a life to live (and a destiny to fulfill, I might add) while Dumbledore was old and ailing. Perhaps these were hints I should have picked up to the upcoming death!


Chemyst - Aug 3, 2005 4:28 pm (#2104 of 2980)
Edited Aug 3, 2005 5:36 pm
Or maybe she (Eileen Prince) turned to the dark side when that muggle started treating her so badly. ...I think it more likely that Snape turned to the dark side after years of watching how badly that muggle treated his mother, I do get the impression that he hated his father; he didn't change his name as completely as Voldemort did, but he did try to renounce his father's name. – Mooncalf

Even though that seems to be the prevailing theory, I don't like the wild assumptions one must make to get there. It is just as likely that his pure-blood mother was a dark witch who had deceived his father. The small slice of memory Harry broke into could have been the moment Tobias Snape found out his wife was teaching their son the dark arts. We have no proof of on-going abuse by his father and it is hard to imagine that a witch could not hold her own against a muggle husband. Yes, Severus may have hated his father, but it is just as reasonable to conclude that it was because his dad would not allow him cast hexes indiscriminately as it is to guess it was because the big mean muggle was hurting mother-witch. Identifying with the Prince surname fits right in with being an angry adolescent, especially if he believed his mom was far more powerful than his dad.

At any rate, HBP has shown us that Snape is a truly inventive wizard who, if allowed to survive another hundred years, has the potential to match DD in greatness.
***sniff, sniff*** Posthumous Order of Merlin, First Class, indeed!


Choices - Aug 3, 2005 5:12 pm (#2105 of 2980)
Edited Aug 3, 2005 6:13 pm
Chemyst - I like your thinking in the above post. If Snape did kill Dumbledore, I have no doubt that it was part of a very well thought out plan - probably of Dumbledore's - and it will turn out to be for the greater good in the end. I also believe that Dumbledore left behind some way (a memory perhaps) that will explain why Snape did what he did (kill or pretend to kill) and why it was necessary. It won't have to be just Snape's word that he did what Dumbledore wanted him to do.


Weeny Owl - Aug 3, 2005 7:38 pm (#2106 of 2980)
It reads like Snape actually wanted Narcissa to suggest the Unbreakable Curse, and he tricked her into coming up with the idea. I don't know why he wanted to make the oath, but I'm certain it was his plan all along.

I agree with that, popkin. It seemed to me that Snape was hoping she'd come up with something like that, and it may have been because he really didn't know what the plan was and thought he could find out. I'm not sure he expected an Unbreakable Vow, but I do think he knows Narcissa well enough to expect her to ask him to protect Draco. I think he was fine with the Unbreakable Vow until she asked him to complete the task if Draco couldn't. I don't think he expected that.


Madame Librarian - Aug 3, 2005 7:50 pm (#2107 of 2980)
Edited Aug 3, 2005 8:51 pm
This just occurred to me while I was reading on the horcrux thread about what else may be a horcrux.

Now that Snape is no longer on staff at Hogwarts (side note--I wonder if he'll get his last paycheck), it will be interesting to see if his office/private quarters are searched and what they might reveal. Perhaps he too has stored memories in little vials that might shed light on his childhood and schooldays and even his early career as a DE. Hmmm.

Ciao. Barb


haymoni - Aug 3, 2005 7:58 pm (#2108 of 2980)
Weeney Owl - love the avatar!

What does everyone make of the comment made by Phineas Nigellus about Snape?

In "A Sluggish Memory", Harry says, "So sir,...you definitely still trust --"

"I have been tolerant enough to answer that question already," said Dumbledore, but he did not sound very tolerant anymore. "My answer has not changed."

"I should think not," said a snide voice; Phineas Nigellus was evidently only pretending to be asleep. Dumbledore ignored him.

What does Phineas know about Dumbledore & Snape?


popkin - Aug 3, 2005 7:59 pm (#2109 of 2980)
Edited by Aug 3, 2005 9:03 pm
Madame Librarian, when Snape extracted memories for Harry's occlumency lessons, I wondered if he also extracted secret memories before his meetings with Voldemort. If he did, they could be left behind in the pensieve right now.

Haymoni, I thought Phineas' comment was directed at Harry's presumptuousness. He seems to think a student should never question a headmaster - certainly not twice.


Weeny Owl - Aug 3, 2005 9:35 pm (#2110 of 2980)
Thanks, haymoni. I do so love to hate Lucius.

I was wondering the same thing, Barb! Snape had to leave everything behind that he had acquired in all his years teaching. JKR could ignore the subject entirely and maybe just mention that Order members cleaned out his office, but I'm hoping she'll have something there that will prove his innocence.

I have decided to reread the books again with a different perspective... that Snape is either working for himself only or that he has been on Voldemort's side all along. I want to see how many interpretations I can come up with on my own as to what Snape says and does and doesn't say and doesn't do. I may keep myself busy until the last book comes out.


Snuffles - Aug 3, 2005 11:39 pm (#2111 of 2980)
Excellent avatar, Weeny Owl

I'm hoping Snape is still on the orders side, there is just one thing that bothers me. In chapter 2, Spinner's End, where Snape is talking to Bella and Cissy(Ha ha). He mentions that it is his information to LV that led to the capture and murder or Emmeline Vance.

Emmeline was an order member, so did he really help to get her murdered?, surely it would be easy enough for Bella to confirm this information to see if Snape was on LV side?

any ideas?


septentrion - Aug 4, 2005 1:30 am (#2112 of 2980)
I second the congrats for your avatar, weeny Owl.

About Snape's parents, there are so many things we can only conjecture. For example, Eileen Prince was perhaps a weak witch who was psychologically submitted to her muggle husband. That could explain why Snape had the temptation to dissociate himself from his father.

About the proof about Snape's real loyalties, Phineas's remark may be a hint of what portraits know, especially the portraits in the headmaster's office. Will they speak or are they bound by an enchantment not to tell what's said in the office ? However, I think we'd learn more by them than by Snape's pensieve, if he has left one. I even thought Snape has been ready for a long time to leave unexpectedly, should the need arise. I think he's been ready since at last LV's rebirth and didn't leave significant and 'delicate" stuff behind.


T Brightwater - Aug 4, 2005 4:50 am (#2113 of 2980)
One of the portraits told Harry that Dumbledore thought very highly of him, and one told Terry Boot about Harry killing the basilisk with Gryffindor's sword, so I think they're a pretty chatty bunch. That's probably why DD and Snape had their talk in the Forest.


S.E. Jones - Aug 4, 2005 7:56 am (#2114 of 2980)
Edited Aug 4, 2005 8:58 am
--We have no proof of on-going abuse by his father and it is hard to imagine that a witch could not hold her own against a muggle husband.-- Chemyst

--About Snape's parents, there are so many things we can only conjecture. For example, Eileen Prince was perhaps a weak witch who was psychologically submitted to her muggle husband. That could explain why Snape had the temptation to dissociate himself from his father.-- septentrion

With respect to Snape's parents, I think we have to keep in mind that, even in the Muggle world, people do allow themselves to be bullied by their spouses, as septentrion suggested. People may argue that a Muggle woman in an abusive relationship has the power to remove the abuse, but doesn't excert the power out of fear or a belief that she deserves the bad treatment or a belief that she is somehow helpless, etc. If you grow up in an abusive environment, you may very well enter that environment, not exactly willingly but perhaps subconsciously, when you marry and allow yourself to be subjected to it because that is the environment that you know. I've seen this myself with relatives and it is truly heartbreaking that they seem unable to realize that what they hated from their childhood is being embraced in their present. This is why I'd have to completely disagree with Chemyst's statement that "it is hard to imagine that a witch could not hold her own against a muggle husband", because it is actually quite easy to believe. I think we have as much to go on, if not more, to suggest that Eileen fell into this trap that many women before have fallen into as to suggest that she deceived her husband and was being somehow "punished" for teaching Severus the dark arts. I'd say that Severus very likely fits the profile of someone who grew up in an environment full of fear, neglect, and physical abuse.


Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 4, 2005 8:36 am (#2115 of 2980)
At any rate, HBP has shown us that Snape is a truly inventive wizard who, if allowed to survive another hundred years, has the potential to match DD in greatness. Chemyst

Snape maybe very powerful but I do not think he has the nobleness of character to match DD. He has done some very cruel and vindictive things. DD has refused to use the Dark Arts. Snape invents them.

I think the main point about Snape's parents are a Muggle father and pureblood mother, just like Voldemort. LPO


rambkowalczyk - Aug 4, 2005 8:53 am (#2116 of 2980)
Concerning Snapes' parents,

Long ago before the HBP, someone suggested that the scene Harry saw in Snape's mind might not have been what we thought it was. The scene was a man with a hooked nose yelling at a cowering woman while a child cried. It makes sense that the man could be Severus' father due to family resemblances, but it also could be an uncle, perhaps the mother's brother.

Suppose this brother was away for a while. He comes back home only to discover that his sister has done the unthinkable--married a Muggle. So he kills Snape's father. (This is why the child is crying). He then intimidates his sister saying that things will change, he'll be in charge etc etc. This causes young Severus to seek revenge against his uncle. Snape's interest in Dark Magic is to better equip himself in fighting his uncle. He later learns that this uncle is a death eater so he infiltrates the ranks of the Death Eaters in order to fight his uncle.

The Dark Lord however suspects something and entices Snape with words of glory to be a true Death Eater. Maybe he points out the similarities between his life and Snapes. Both had Muggle fathers. Both were extremely gifted in Magic. I suspect that Snape made up the spells (as well as the modifications of potions)that were in the old potions book--something that has never been done by anyone not even Hermione.

The point I want to make is that in considering Snape's parents we need to keep in mind that before Snape became a death eater he was against Voldemort. After all Dumbledore says he "rejoined" our side.


S.E. Jones - Aug 4, 2005 9:03 am (#2117 of 2980)
Edited Aug 4, 2005 10:13 am
I don't think that necessarily means he was formerly against Voldemort, simply that he wasn't for him prior to joining the Death Eaters. Whose side would you consider purebloods like the Blacks to be on? Sirius said that there were many pureblooded families who thought Voldemort had the right idea until he started gaining power by force. They may not have been for Voldemort, but they were not necessarily against him either. I think Dumbledore would've still considered them to be on "our side" because he would see it as those who side with Voldemort and those who don't. I think he would've considered Umbridge to be on "our side" simply because she wasn't on Voldemort's (pure conjecture, of course). Having said that, I think he would've viewed Snape the same way. He was on the side that wasn't stricly for Voldemort, then on Voldemort's side, then on the other side again.


constant vigilance - Aug 4, 2005 9:07 am (#2118 of 2980)
Snape maybe very powerful but I do not think he has the nobleness of character to match DD. He has done some very cruel and vindictive things. DD has refused to use the Dark Arts. Snape invents them.

I agree. Snape is an intellegent and skilled wizard but thus far he has not used it in such a way that would earn him an Order of Merlin.


Wizadora - Aug 4, 2005 9:55 am (#2119 of 2980)
Here's a thought - Could the man with the hooked nose shouting at the woman be Severus? Harry doesn't really get a good look at him, maybe he did not recognise him.


T Brightwater - Aug 4, 2005 10:33 am (#2120 of 2980)
S.E., you're spot on with the pattern of domestic violence. It's so easy to assume that what one grew up with is normal, and difficult to break a pattern one doesn't even recognize.

I wonder if Severus looked at his parents and thought that if that was where loving someone got a person, he wasn't having any of it.


kj09 - Aug 4, 2005 12:30 pm (#2121 of 2980)
Has it been suggested that Snape was or is infatuated with Narcissa? There's no way I'll be able to read all the posts.


Madame Pomfrey - Aug 4, 2005 1:02 pm (#2122 of 2980)
Edited Aug 4, 2005 2:03 pm
I have a question.When Fenrir attacked Harry,Someone yelled Petrificus Totalis and Fenrir collapsed against him,saving Harry.Who cast this spell? It doesn't say.Snape had turned a corner right before the attack but,I still wonder if Snape cast that spell.Did I miss something?


Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2005 1:13 pm (#2123 of 2980)
Madame Pomfrey, it could have been Snape who disabled Greyback it is not clear as to cast the spell. It seems J.K. Rowling left the readers another nice puzzle.


Madame Pomfrey - Aug 4, 2005 1:21 pm (#2124 of 2980)
Thanks for the reply Nathan.I thought I had missed something.Another puzzle! Oh how my head doth ache.


Choices - Aug 4, 2005 5:05 pm (#2125 of 2980)
Yes, another puzzle. Snape and Draco were still in the area, so Snape could very well have done the spell to get Fenrir off Harry. Or, Harry could have done it. It certainly is questionable which one can take the credit.


Star Crossed - Aug 4, 2005 5:14 pm (#2126 of 2980)
Kj09, yes, it has been suggested that Snape is infaturated with Narcissa. It's a very popular theory.


Choices - Aug 4, 2005 5:23 pm (#2127 of 2980)
I don't for a minute think Narcissa is Snape's type - does he even have a type?? I might buy into Snape liking Lily, but not Narcissa. It just feels wrong.


Ponine - Aug 4, 2005 5:37 pm (#2128 of 2980)
Edited Aug 4, 2005 6:45 pm
I agree Choices - I am leaning heavily towards Snape being in love with/loving Lily - I cannot see any other meanings to Dumbledore's statement to Harry;

...Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy . Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father... You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned - p.512, UK version

I mean - You are telling me that Death Eater Snape's, the creator of Sectum Sempra, greatest regret in life is not inspiring LV to kill someone - that part was not so bad - but the fact that it was James Potter made it unbearable?!? I have convinced myself. Snape loved Lily, and might still. Harry merely serves as a daily reminder of how Snape actually caused the death of the only woman he loved....

Sorry, edited to add bold, and cross-posted with Chemyst


Chemyst - Aug 4, 2005 5:42 pm (#2129 of 2980)
Edited Aug 4, 2005 6:46 pm
the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy...

. . . . ...and yet I feel major chunks of this story are still missing.


Weeny Owl - Aug 4, 2005 7:14 pm (#2130 of 2980)
I've always wondered why Snape hated Harry so much. It doesn't matter what James Potter did. Harry isn't his father, but...

...if Snape did love Lily, whether a brother/sister type love, the love of friends, or a romantic love, Harry would always be a reminder of what Snape did - a reminder of Snape's own guilt. Harry has Lily's eyes. Snape sees those eyes and sees Lily. He might feel, no matter how irrational it is, that if it weren't for Harry being born, Lily would still be alive. Harry is the reason Voldemort went after the Potters, so it's all Harry's fault that Lily is dead.

Snape isn't the most emotionally mature person we've encountered, and if he does feel that way, naturally it wouldn't be fair or reasonable, but when has Snape ever been fair or reasonable where Harry is concerned?

Harry is a constant reminder that Lily died, and being a reminder also brings Snape's own guilt to the forefront, and just as Harry blamed Snape for Sirius dying, so might Snape blame Harry for Lily dying.


Elanor - Aug 4, 2005 9:59 pm (#2131 of 2980)
Edited Aug 4, 2005 10:59 pm
Very interesting Weeny Owl! And maybe that, just as Harry blames Snape for Sirius dying but also blames himself for that, then Snape also blames himself because he wasn't able to save her. Harry is then the constant reminder of his fault and failure.


septentrion - Aug 5, 2005 1:19 am (#2132 of 2980)
For those who could be interested, I've posted on the ch 27 thread (HBP chapters folder) some ideas from the Snape's trial at the accio conference in UK last week about the spell Snape cast on DD in the tower.


Eunice - Aug 5, 2005 3:19 am (#2133 of 2980)
I was wondering about Snape's behaviour in the Shack, at the end of PoA. (I'm sorry I don't have the book here, so I can't make exact quotes). Everyone remembers how he was yelling as a madman at Sirius and threatening even Lupin, completely out of control (by the way, I agree that Snape lost his temper much more that a person "in complete control of his emotions" would do. And I agree that he's not emotionally mature). Then, what if this outburst of loath and hatred was *really* dependent on the real feelings Snape had during Godric's Hollow's night? If Snape is so worried that Black could harm Harry, just as he believed he (Sirius) did on that night? Snape truly believed that Black was the one that betrayed the Potter's hiding-place. And now (in PoA), Severus believes he's seeing Black threatening Harry's life. And he gets mad in watching that scene. So he looses his temper and menaces Sirius with the Dementors Kiss.

If we look at Snape's behaviour in the Shack from the point of view that Snape's honest in his outburst, then we have another proof that Snape really feels remorse for what happened on Halloween 1981.

Sorry if someone has already suggested this.


Steve Newton - Aug 5, 2005 5:07 am (#2134 of 2980)
I wonder why Snape's Worst Memory was his worst. The humiliation, hung upside down? Calling Lily a mudblood, perhaps the breaking of a friend/relationship? His lack of control or his emotions leading up to his using the spell, sectumsempra? Something I've forgotten or failed to notice?


Surtseystwin - Aug 5, 2005 8:10 am (#2135 of 2980)
Madame Pince wrote:

no Order member will step to Snape's aid because they all believe him to be a traitor. Only after he's axed will they realize that he really was doing as Dumbledore had asked. ***sniff, sniff*** Posthumous Order of Merlin, First Class, and all that....


I suppose that scenario is as strong a possibility as anything, but if Snape dies a hero, many will trivialize his sacrifice because of their ongoing hatred for him. I believe that (good) Snape remaining alive would be a much greater opportunity for character growth in Harry. Harry would have the chance to forgive, and let go of his blame and bitterness.

I would love to see Snape facing the Wizengamot, mute and defiant, and Harry (finally knowing the truth about Snape, and perhaps being the only one who does) having to step forward to defend him. That would elevate Harry to a Dumbledore-like position. Then Harry would finally truly have Lily's eyes - not just eyes that resemble his mother's, but those that are able to see the good in others when no one else can.

Defeating Voldemort may be Harry's opportunity to become a great wizard, but defeating his prejudices against Snape will be Harry's best opportunity to become a great man.


Choices - Aug 5, 2005 8:35 am (#2136 of 2980)
"Defeating Voldemort may be Harry's opportunity to become a great wizard, but defeating his prejudices against Snape will be Harry's best opportunity to become a great man."

Oh, well said. {{claps}} Well said!!


septentrion - Aug 5, 2005 8:35 am (#2137 of 2980)
I love what you say, Surtseystwin !


Eunice - Aug 5, 2005 10:00 am (#2138 of 2980)
Surtseystwin, chapeau. I'd definitely love to see a Wizengamot scene at the end where Harry does what you suggested. Brilliant!


Sparrowhawk - Aug 5, 2005 12:00 pm (#2139 of 2980)
Edited Aug 5, 2005 1:03 pm
All the more interesting, since in all likelihood Snape would go on hating Harry for helping him out (like he hated Jamse, even after the latter had rescued him from Lupin in the Shrieking Shack)...


Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 5, 2005 12:19 pm (#2140 of 2980)
Very well said Surtseystwin. I hope Harry can indeed become that man.

I do not see much canon evidence that Snape cared for Lily. I think that if he led Voldemort to James and Lily his concern is the life debt he owes James. I think he is still bound in some way to help Harry because of that. I agree, there seems to be many holes in the story Dumbledore told. Dumbledore wanted to get on with finding the Horcrux and did not want to explain everything to Harry. Perhaps he could not explain everything. When you are keeping others secrets sometimes you have to leave things out. LPO


Netherlandic - Aug 5, 2005 12:26 pm (#2141 of 2980)
Steve Newton, perhaps Snape's worst memory is not just the humiliation by James and Sirius, but also losing Lily's friendship (if there ever was) or a possibility to become friends with Lily (who is good at Potions and a lovely girl) by insulting her. If indeed Snape was interested in Lily...


timrew - Aug 5, 2005 3:16 pm (#2142 of 2980)
Paradox. Snape hated James Potter. So why was he so remorseful about him being killed by Voldemort? And why did he go to Dumbledore and beg to be forgiven?

Lily? Did Snape indeed love her? Did they get together in the Potions class, both being so good. In fact, did Snape tutor Lily?

And why does he hate Harry Potter so much that he makes his life a misery at every opportunity he can?

Did Snape beg Voldemort (when he found out who the victims were going to be) to spare Lily if he could?

And, when she died, was that what prompted him to go back to Dumbledore and renounce the Death Eaters?


mooncalf - Aug 5, 2005 4:14 pm (#2143 of 2980)
Edited by Aug 5, 2005 5:14 pm
In the Melissa/Emerson interview, JKR refused to deny that Snape had a thing for Lily. And then she sort of changed the subject. I would say that that is fairly strong evidence, and I had never been a fan of that theory before.


HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 5, 2005 4:48 pm (#2144 of 2980)
"Then Harry would finally truly have Lily's eyes - not just eyes that resemble his mother's, but those that are able to see the good in others when no one else can. "

Surtseystwin, that sounds like a good explanation for JKR accentuating the point that it is not the color that is important but the fact that he has Lily's eyes.

timrew, there is so much speculation involved that it seems like a downward spiral. IF Snape would go to Big V for a favor to spare Lily, what makes him think Big V would even consider it? I think this direction leads to a dead end, especially considering horcrux counts.

Also, the time line seems to have some snags in it: if Snape returned to DD before Big V's downfall, how soon before? Did he know Pettigrew was the secret keeper? How long was the rat a secret keeper? A month, a week, an hour? To my recollection, the book merely states at the last minute, Sirius changed it over to the rat. How and when did Snape find out?

I've posted this before that I thought Solitaire made a great observation in recognizing that Lily's response in Snape's Worst Memory was odd. I think that she is right in that there was more to that relationship than it seems to be at first read.


T Brightwater - Aug 5, 2005 5:28 pm (#2145 of 2980)
Edited Aug 5, 2005 7:12 pm
We've been speculating all along that Snape was attracted to Lily, but what if it was the other way around? It's not unknown for girls to be attracted to nerdy loners (I've done it myself a few times :-)) and Lily might not have been sticking up for him just on principle. Interesting that the first time Ginny speaks up for Harry (at Flourish and Blotts), she says the same thing as Lily: "Leave him alone!"

Additional thought - is it possible that Snape is Draco's godfather?


Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 5, 2005 6:33 pm (#2146 of 2980)
HungarianHorntail there are time line problems. I think Snape turned to Dumbledore's side before Voldemort fell. Why else would his information be useful? Who would trust a Death Eater after Voldemort fell? They would be saving their own skin. Maybe he never went to Dumbledore's side and only changed sides on Voldemort's orders. LPO


constant vigilance - Aug 5, 2005 6:36 pm (#2147 of 2980)
Edited Aug 5, 2005 7:40 pm
IF Snape would go to Big V for a favor to spare Lily, what makes him think Big V would even consider it?

Somehow I doubt this happened. Snape's response when Cissy asked him to talk to Voldemort? "The Dark Lord will not be persuaded, and I am not stupid enough to attempt it." (HBP 34, US edition) And this is when Snape is considered LV's "favorite, his most trusted advisor." Snape is a stickler for the rules, and Voldemort's number one rule is do not dare to disagree with me.

Also, I don't believe Harry has wrongly judged Snape. I think Snape has always been wrongly judgemental of Harry.

edit: cross posted with LPO. I agree that Snape "switched sides" on Voldemort's orders.


Mrs. Sirius - Aug 5, 2005 9:29 pm (#2148 of 2980)
Edited Aug 5, 2005 10:29 pm
timrew wrote Lily? Did Snape indeed love her? Did they get together in the Potions class, both being so good. In fact, did Snape tutor Lily? And why does he hate Harry Potter so much that he makes his life a misery at every opportunity he can? Did Snape beg Voldemort (when he found out who the victims were going to be) to spare Lily if he could? And, when she died, was that what prompted him to go back to Dumbledore and renounce the Death Eaters?

Although I can't image Voldemort granting wishes,

(LV "I'm going to kill the Potters."

Snape-kill Potter and his kid but save Lily

LV-OK I'll let her live)

Is it possible Voldemort offered Lily her life because Snape asked? Was he important or influential enough with LV to ask? Would LV consider another's feelings, thoughts in such a matter? And if we take the position of Snape asking such a favor, could it be that he set in motion the deep magic of love that saved Harry? Oh the possibilities of double cross.

LV sent Snape to Hogwarts to spy on DD, DD got Snape on his side and gave him the tools to trick LV to bring about his end.


Eunice - Aug 5, 2005 10:32 pm (#2149 of 2980)
T Brightwater wrote: - the first time Ginny speaks up for Harry (at Flourish and Blotts), she says the same thing as Lily: "Leave him alone!"

Fantastic observation! Moreover I think that Ginny and Lily are so much alike.


Taylor Child - Aug 5, 2005 10:53 pm (#2150 of 2980)
Hey all, I was trying to come to a conclusion on Snape today, and I was thinking about how Rowling said we'd 'see more of wormtail' or something like that in Book six, and we barely saw him. I think she's trying to nudge us into thinking about the relationship between Severus and Peter, which I surprisingly haven't read anything about yet.

Similarities - 1- Pettigrew and Snape are playing on both sides. Both are Death Eaters, and both (were) Order members. 2- Both gave vital information leading to the Potter's demise. 3- Not 100% relevant (but i thought interesting) Both must be great at occlumency...Peter possibly taught by Snape?

Differences - Pettigrew must have been entirely under cover with the Order if he made it to being the Potters secret keeper. Snape is on both sides claiming to be a spy loyal to whatever side the person he's talking to is on-- he's not exactly an 'undercover' doule agent, as both sides know he's claiming to be a spy for both sides (if you follow)--where pettigrew is firmly undercover about being a DE.

Now, all that being said, those who still believe Snape loyal to DD have a difficult question to answer-

Why did Snape not rat out (lol) Pettigrew to Dumbledore? Possibly answers? well- 1) He's afraid it would blow his cover and not be able to answer to Voldy for it. -this is obviously weak, there are a million ways Snape could have talked himself out of it.. ie "Dumbledore's a great Legilimens and Pettigrew is so inept at everything he couldn't manage to close his mind and DD discovered the truth" (all the while using his own occlumency powers to conceal the truth) 2) He doesn't know Pettigrew's a DE until the end of year. -this seems almost equally weak. While its true (according to Karkaroff) that only the Dark Lord knew all of his followers, Pettigrew must have been rather well known to be 'not very popular' in Azkaban..so Snape not knowing? Can't quite see the one that handed LV the Potters being an unknown. 3) He is genuinely a LV supporter. -This seems most likely to me. He didn't blow Pettirew's cover, passed info to Voldemort, murdered Dumbledore, I had more, but I'm tired so I'll probably edit later. Thoughts anyone?
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Post  Mona on Thu May 26, 2011 11:27 am

septentrion - Aug 6, 2005 12:33 am (#2151 of 2980)
It was logical not to say Snape that Pettigrew was a spy and a Death Eater : Snape was in the Order as well, it was safer if he ignored it. I'm not sure LV was aware of Snape's abilities with occlumency, so he might have thought surer not to tell Snape about that "bit" of information.


Leviosa - Aug 6, 2005 4:09 am (#2152 of 2980)
I think that LV only gives his DEs the information they need to know to complete their tasks. Snape didn't have to know about Pettigrew because he wasn't involved in the Potters' murder directly (he just told LV about the prophecy, as far as we know, he didn't have anything to do with LV's actions afterwards, he was at Hogwarts) So why should LV tell Snape about Pettigrew?

What bothers me most about Snape (and convinces me that he is firmly on LV's side) is not that he murdered DD (that might be explained away: it was on DD's orders etc.). IMO the most important is how he killed DD. As far as I remember, Snape is described as being full of hatred. I don't think that his violent emotions can be convincingly explained away. I think that for whatever reason Snape genuinely hated DD, otherwise I can't explained why he should be so full of hatred.


septentrion - Aug 6, 2005 4:40 am (#2153 of 2980)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 5:40 am
It was more written like "hatred and repulsion etched in the harsh lines of his face", but hatred and repulsion for what ? For DD ? for what he's going to do ? for what DD begs him to do ? (and we don't even know what for DD begs). And don't forget that when Harry gives forcefully the potion to DD, he's described as feeling hatred and repulsion with himself. The choice of words isn't innocent.


Chemyst - Aug 6, 2005 5:31 am (#2154 of 2980)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 6:37 am
Is it possible Voldemort offered Lily her life because Snape asked? - Mrs. Sirius

Well, that would be a bizarre twist, wouldn't it? The interviews and this last book made it clear that the reason Lily's death counted where James' did not was because she had a choice. If it was Snape who made it possible for her to have that choice...
Harry: I hate Snape because he gave my mother a chance to live which resulted in killing her in order to save me who he hates because I remind him of my dad who finally straightened up enough to win over my mom because my dad had been motivated to change by his jealousy of Snape who had loved my mom for her not liking my dad in the first place....


Leviosa - Aug 6, 2005 5:34 am (#2155 of 2980)
I think Snape feels hatred and repulsion towards DD, that's how I read and understand this passage. As for Harry giving DD the potion I can't reread the scene at the moment because I have lent the book away but the context is different to the killing scene, so I suppose the same words might indicate a completely different feeling.


Susurro Notities - Aug 6, 2005 6:40 am (#2156 of 2980)
Edited by Aug 6, 2005 7:43 am
On the Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape thread I posted the following

Harry on p. 571 (US) is described as "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing..." Whereas Snape is portrayed as "...and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." (p. 303 US) These are similar but not the same. Snape's emotions were external, Harry's were internal. Snape appears to hate Dumbledore. Harry hates himself.

It was pointed out that this may be because the books are written from Harry's point of view. Thus we see Harry's internal feelings and Harry's observation about Snape. Even so I would expect that while Harry is feeding Dumbledore the potion his external emotion would be one of pain, sadness, and fear - not of hatred and revulsion.

Still the question remains - Does Snape hate Dumbledore or does he hate the act he is committing?


Mrs. Sirius - Aug 6, 2005 6:45 am (#2157 of 2980)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 7:47 am
Chemyst, yes that is a very slippery slope. Generally that's the kind of speculating I steer away from. Like JKR says that’s a path that doesn't lead anywhere. But it is fun at times to go there, just like your analysis is funny.

JKR uses her words oh so carefully. Knowing that she knows where all this will lead, when she chooses to reuse words and phrases it is so interesting to consider why.

“Leave him alone”-- Lily and Ginny

"hatred and repulsion etched in the harsh lines of his face" referring to Harry and Snape

Another line that she has used but has not re-used, yet, from SS

"from that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can’t share without ending up liking each other…“. but this one is for another thread. SS pg 179


Weeny Owl - Aug 6, 2005 7:28 am (#2158 of 2980)
Were the hatred and revulsion for Dumbledore or for what Snape was about to do?

Why can't it be both?

Perhaps Snape did hate Dumbledore at that moment because of the situation itself.

Taking it as a given that Snape is on the Order's side, he would know in the time he spent looking around the tower, pushing Draco out of the way, and looking into Dumbledore's eyes that his entire way of life for over a decade was over. At that moment, perhaps he was filled with hate for everyone in the tower because not only did he have to kill someone he loved and respected, but the people in the tower (Dumbledore and Draco included) had forced him into doing something he didn't want to do.


Finn BV - Aug 6, 2005 10:59 am (#2159 of 2980)
Sorry to change the topic, but… about Snape's Worst Memory: If he is on the Order's side, wouldn't his worst memory be ever being a DE, or ever finding out that Voldemort knew where James and Lily were, or something like that? Why would it be a simple childish prank when he's had far worse things in his past? Or is this just JKR using an artful chapter title?


Netherlandic - Aug 6, 2005 11:13 am (#2160 of 2980)
Remember there are several of his worst nightmares in the Pensieve, this is just one of them. But to answer your question, he was made to look like a complete fool in front of the whole school. It must have been terrible, far more than a prank. I also (but I have posted this already) think that it has something to do with Lily's presence.


constant vigilance - Aug 6, 2005 11:27 am (#2161 of 2980)
If he is on the Order's side, wouldn't his worst memory be ever being a DE, or ever finding out that Voldemort knew where James and Lily were, or something like that? Finn BV

I think Snape's worst memory would involve something he was ashamed of doing or being associated with. Therefore it would have made more sense if his worst memory had been something relating to his Death Eater days. Plus, one only needs to place memories in a Pensieve if they wish to view them. As we saw in HBP, you can store memories in bottles, where they are safe from the intrusion of young, curious boys who don't own Pensieves.


K Stahl - Aug 6, 2005 12:10 pm (#2162 of 2980)
I keep reading theories about Snape's feelings for Lily. Could someone please point me in the right direction for this relationship? I have yet to find a single sentence in which Snape references Lily other than when he speaks contemptuously of her as a mudblood.


Zinovia - Aug 6, 2005 12:17 pm (#2163 of 2980)
as far as I know, there is no real proof that Snape loved Lily. The only thing we have to go on is the memory Harry spies on in the fifth book, and in that one he calls her a mudblood. I heard that maybe Lupid loved Lily, but Rowling dispelled those rumors as far as I know.


Netherlandic - Aug 6, 2005 12:17 pm (#2164 of 2980)
Well, for one, he never speaks ill of Lily in front of Harry, while he goes on and on about James being an arrogant prat. Secondly, she was good at Potions. Thirdly, DD told Harry that Snape felt the greatest remorse after finding out that Voldemort interpreted the prophesy as to kill the Potters. Lily dead. There must have been a reason Snape went back to the right side. And of course, because it is a very romantic idea.


Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 6, 2005 1:34 pm (#2165 of 2980)
I think Snape's worst memory relates to him feeling powerless and helpless in the hands of his worst enemy. It may be connected with the little boy crying while his parents are fighting. There is a special kind of terror when you have absolutely no control or choice. The Dark Arts represent power, strength and respect to Snape. The opposite of what his tormentor forces him to endure. I think if Snape had romantic feelings for Lily they would have turned to hate and bitterness when she married his worst enemy. LPO


Madam Pince - Aug 6, 2005 1:56 pm (#2166 of 2980)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 2:57 pm
I haven't read this thread in a few days, so this goes back a few posts, but I just have to say:

Well done, Surtseystwin! Oh bravo! I sooooo hope that your scenario (Post #2135) turns out to be correct! It is very insightful, and very uplifting. Thanks!


Sparrowhawk - Aug 6, 2005 2:46 pm (#2167 of 2980)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 3:49 pm
Well, of course Voldemort wouldn't have agreed to change his plans concerning Draco, because he was very angry against Lucius and wanted to punish him and his family. No point in arguing for their sake, obviously.

But when he decided to kill Harry, he had no reason to deny Snape's possible request, as long as it did not involve changing his plans whatsoever. Lily was of no importance to him, dead or alive.

One should keep in mind what he said to Wormtail, before providing him with his silvery hand (GoF, chapter 23 - The Death Eaters): "Worthless and traitorous as you are, you helped me... and Lord Voldemort rewards his helpers..." But of course, as soon as Lily interfered and threw herself between Voldemort and his target, he changed his mind and killed her...


Chemyst - Aug 6, 2005 2:50 pm (#2168 of 2980)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 4:10 pm
Why would it ( Snape's worst memory ) be a simple childish prank when he's had far worse things in his past? - Finn

The answer is Perspective. Of all the running hexes and counter-jinxes, this one was must have been a crystallizing moment that altered Snape's perspective. I doubt he'd ever used the term 'mudblood' before, at least not in "that way" where it became an emotional Sectumsempra. That day, with that combination of forces; completing OWLS ending formal education's childhood, James being as superficial and oblivious as ever, the ending of hope at least, (and as we like to speculate, perhaps the possibility of love...) Anyway, it makes a lot of sense that his worst memory would look like that on the outside because it is often little seemingly insignificant and idle words that grab a person's gut and change their resolve.

I could give some poignant examples from my own life, but my soapbox is neatly packed away. My abbreviated lecture would be: Go say something insignificantly kind to someone because it works both ways (kind/unkind), you might change a life.


HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 6, 2005 6:55 pm (#2169 of 2980)
Sorry LPO, I didn't mean for it to seem as though I didn't think Snape switched over after Big V's downfall (that wouldn't make any sense), I meant, how soon before Big V's downfall did Snape rejoin the Order? A month before, two hours before, etc. Does that make sense?

The thought that Snape went back on Big V's orders is very disturbing. I'd like to hope he wasn't coaching Harry outside of Hogwarts during the chase because he's crazy but rather that he was indeed trying to help Harry.

Leviosa, regarding your Post #2152: that scene where DD begs is what convinced me that there must be more to this scenario than what meets the eye. If JKR has finished off DD at the hands of Snape, pleading for his life, then I must say, I am completely disappointed in her writing ability. I've posted this before and I'll post it again, I can't foresee a man of DD's caliber being reduced to begging for his own life.

And if you reread that section and where Harry chases Snape, JKR leaves these descriptions of Snape open to interpretation (why not just "out" Snape and leave Book 7 as a surprise to what kind of showdown we'll see?). I see, that if Snape had just killed DD, he would be ecstatic, happy, zealous and excited to return to his "dark lord" to report on what a good boy he's been. That just doesn't seem to fit the situation to me. That's more the rat's style.


Susurro Notities - Aug 6, 2005 7:30 pm (#2170 of 2980)
Edited by Aug 6, 2005 8:33 pm
Weeny Owl per your post #2158

"Were the hatred and revulsion for Dumbledore or for what Snape was about to do? Why can't it be both?"

Although you describe a very plausible situation it does not quite answer my question. He may have hated Dumbledore because he had forced Snape to kill him but that is essentially the same as hating the act. This is not the same as hating Dumbledore in general - for years of servitude, acting, and pretending.

I believe that although the feeling Harry had is described very much like the look Snape had there is a difference. Harry felt hatred and revulsion for himself and the act he was force to commit but if one looked at Harry they would undoubtably have seen fear, sadness, and emotional pain.

Snape exhibits hatred and revulsion. So the question, as asked by several other forum members, is is this look due to hating the act (including hating Dumbledore at that moment because of the act) or a long standing hatred of Dumbledore? Good Snape / Bad Snape.


Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 6, 2005 8:11 pm (#2171 of 2980)
I misunderstood HungarianHorntail. I agree I would like to know just when Snape switched sides and if he knew Peter had switched. LPO


Leviosa - Aug 7, 2005 4:21 am (#2172 of 2980)
HungarianHorntail, I've actually never thought that DD begged for his life, I took it more as an appeal to the good DD thought resided in Snape, an appeal to Snape's conscience. After all DD had done Snape plenty of good and always helped and supported him. DD hoped that this would have had at least some effect in Snape. Judging from Snape's emotional reaction (hatred and revulsion), he was mistaken. Maybe Snape regards DD's attitude as a weakness and that's why he hates him?? Anyways, I think the hatred is directed at DD personally and Snape has been hiding it for a long time.

I realize that the big problem with my take on the matter is that the overall message of the series is strongly damaged. The bad guys don't change after all. This cannot be, can it? There has to be some resolution of course, but as it is now written in book 6 I haven't been able to see it differently, I'm afraid.


septentrion - Aug 7, 2005 5:12 am (#2173 of 2980)
Leviosa, I see you begin to have some sense (only joking, I very well know you have sense) I was on your opinion when I finished the book but then my mind had begun to work, think - I had to find something good about Snape - and I began to figure out matters couldn't be so simple.


HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 7, 2005 8:45 am (#2174 of 2980)
Leviosa, if that is the scene with DD/Snape, then why didn't DD do that with Draco? DD's personality just doesn't fit that mold to me.

septentrion, that was pretty much my line of thinking, too. JKR lumped Snape/Draco together as bad boys, but we see that Draco is not a killer. As I stated on another thread, he could have AK'd Harry on the train. I am neither a Snape nor Draco fan but feel there is more to it since JKR left so much open to interpretation.


T Brightwater - Aug 7, 2005 9:01 am (#2175 of 2980)
Leviosa, I like your take on this, but I think that Snape came really close to making the right choice. There are parallels in LOTR (Saruman, for just a moment, seems to be willing to give in to Gandalf and Gollum nearly repents of his evil schemes against Frodo, only to harden his heart when Sam wakes and calls him "Sneak") and in C. S. Lewis's _The Great Divorce_, when Sarah Smith's husband almost lets her recall his heart to joy and love.

I think his hatred and anger won out (echoes of Saruman: "Pride and hate were conquering him") partially because he was angry at DD expecting him to break his vow and die for it, and partially because he thought DD had always favored and protected James and Sirius.

Once again, Dumbledore's weak point is shown to be his underestimation of hate, just as Voldemort underestimates love.

I think Snape's "No Unforgiveable Curses from you, Potter!" was meant as a warning - Harry isn't going to win that way. I also think Snape's going to get one more chance in Book 7, and this time he'll make the right choice, even at the cost of his own life.


septentrion - Aug 7, 2005 10:22 am (#2176 of 2980)
T Brightwater : he was angry at DD expecting him to break his vow

I don't think so. DD would have wanted the others to live, even at the cost of his own life. I don't think he expected Snape to break his vow, I think he rather tried to avoid a situation in which Snape would have to killed him but was ready for it whatsoever.


mooncalf - Aug 7, 2005 10:29 am (#2177 of 2980)
That's an interesting perspective, T Brightwater, I hadn't thought of it that way. And although it makes sense, it just seems too Darth Vader to me. I don't know what would be the ultimate wrong that would make Snape turn back to the good side - surely nothing to do with Harry.

When I first read the scene in which Snape does his evil deed, I felt as though I had been kicked in the chest; I was that convinced that Snape would ultimately prove to be one of the good guys. After thinking it all through (and after several trips to the forum) I don't think that it is that simple.

Aside from all the excellent reasons listed here, JKR has suggested that there is a redemptive pattern to Snape.

I don't blame Harry (or anyone else) for believing the evidence of his own eyes and drawing an obvious conclusion that Snape is evil and always was, but I don't think that Jo writes that way.

I think that Snape was trapped into making an Unbreakable Vow that was more demanding than he expected it to be; he told Dumbledore about it. Dumbledore insisted that he carry it through when it became necessary, in order to save Harry, Draco, Snape and Snape's status as an infiltrator. DD's pleading was not for his own life, but for Snape's carrying out a plan that even Snape found loathsome.

And I think that Harry's face very likely would have shown repulsion when force-feeding poison to DD.


Good Evans - Aug 7, 2005 11:02 am (#2178 of 2980)
Edited Aug 7, 2005 12:03 pm
Sorry to go off on a tagent here.....

I know there has been speculation about Snape being a vampire, am not convinced (mostly due to the being present at Quidditch matches which at least start in daylight (and if I am correct vampires turn to dust if daylight happens upon their skin). However I did find his curtaining the classsroom windows in the DADA room , odd almost as if he does wish to control and reduce the entry of daylight in to his rooms.

any thoughts as to why he did this, it seems too simple to make the room dark and spooky?


Emily - Aug 7, 2005 12:22 pm (#2179 of 2980)
Generally speaking, I shut down those lines of speculation that are plain unprofitable. Even with the shippers. God bless them, but they had a lot of fun with it. It's when people get really off the wall — it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's really nothing in the canon that supports that.

That's from Jo's interview with Emerson and Melissa earlier this summer. (Italics are mine.) Also, in the World book Day Chat on March 4, 2004 Jo had already put down that rumor:

Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires?
JK Rowling: Erm... I don't think so.

So, my guess is that he just doesn't like sunlight, Good Evans.


S.E. Jones - Aug 7, 2005 4:50 pm (#2180 of 2980)
You know, Good Evens, when I read your question about Snape curtaining off his room, I thought of what Dumbledore said of the inferi in the cave, "like many creatures that dwell in the cold and darkness, they fear light and warmth". Could this be why Snape always keeps his curtains drawn? And, isn't the Potions room described as being rather dark? Snake has lived in the cold, dark dungeon for quite some time, and he kept his office and quarters instead of moving to a different room in the castle, closer to his new classroom. So, what exactly does this say about him, or does it?


Nims - Aug 7, 2005 5:02 pm (#2181 of 2980)
I am trying to convince family and friends (no luck, alas), that Snape is Malfoy's dad. Any takers? Narcissa seemed to confide so completely in Snape, the vow they took was intimate, almost marriage-like... They would have been the right age to parent Draco; Draco takes after his mother in looks, not Lucius; Snape has always preferred and counseled Draco over all others. Also, on JKR's "Rumours" page, answerering the rumour "Luna is Snape's daughter," Rowling answers: "This is a most tantalizing idea, but no, Mr. Lovegood, the editor of 'The Quibbler,' really is Luna's father and Snape does not have a DAUGHTER." Why would she finish her answer with that last clause? She already said Mr. Lovegood is Luna's dad... Anyone?


constant vigilance - Aug 7, 2005 6:20 pm (#2182 of 2980)
Edited Aug 7, 2005 7:21 pm
I've actually never thought that DD begged for his life, I took it more as an appeal to the good DD thought resided in Snape, an appeal to Snape's conscience. After all DD had done Snape plenty of good and always helped and supported him. DD hoped that this would have had at least some effect in Snape. Judging from Snape's emotional reaction (hatred and revulsion), he was mistaken. Maybe Snape regards DD's attitude as a weakness and that's why he hates him??

Well said, Leviosa.

I agree that having Snape be a bad guy does not fit with JK's message of people can become good. However, believing that Snape is good doesn't work with what JK has said in interviews. When she was asked if Draco would become good, (paraphrasing don't have the quote) she said no because he had been taught at such a young age to behave as he does. She also said that Vernon and Petunia's hatred of all things magic would not go away because their prejudices have existed for too long.

So, my thinking is that how can Snape see the wrong of his ways if Draco can't? I actually started to believe that Draco could become good, given that he was crying to the muggle-born Myrtle, who was murdered by his master.

By the way, did anyone read my comment about Snape and the Pensieve? or was it like a dropped prophecy in the Department of Mysteries?


Weeny Owl - Aug 7, 2005 7:18 pm (#2183 of 2980)
There are some things I just can't see JKR introducing into this series, and Draco not being the child of Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy is one of them. Not only does he look like his parents and nothing at all like Snape, but with Draco's parents being married, I just can't see this being part of the storyline.


irish flutterby - Aug 7, 2005 7:26 pm (#2184 of 2980)
I am not convinced that Snape was reared in a Muggle hating, evil doing home. Actually, if you think about it he must have hated his father who, in a sense practiced a Muggle version of the Dark Arts. I don't know that I completely believe that his mom was "dark". So it may not be that Snape was "raised" in the dark arts and all the way that Draco has. For more of my opinion of Snape, I've posted on the "Why DD trusted Snape" thread.


Seven - Aug 7, 2005 8:36 pm (#2185 of 2980)
Hi guys, Kelly from New Zealand here.

I have only posted once before, so still kind of new at this...but I've been thinking about something about Snape that I can't figure out...of course it might not even be about Snape but I'm sure it is...

In OotP, when Aunt Petunia lets slip that she knows what dementors are, she says: (forgive me, its not an exact quote - can't carry cannons with me to university!) "I heard that awful boy telling her about them years ago". Harry assumes she means his parents.

But later on in the book, after Harry sees Snapes worst memory, he learns that James and Lily didn't become close, let alone friends, till 6th or 7th year. Therefore James wasn't around when he and Lily were younger to tell her about dementors. Petunias memory could be from around the 6th or 7th year, but I find it highly unlikey that Lily didn't know what dementors were before then. She wasn't 'touched in the head'.

So...this makes me think that maybe the awful boy that Petunia mentioned wasn't James at all...but maybe it was Snape...

Of course I have no real evidence. Worthy of further discussion?

(sorry if someone has already thought of this. Feel free to delete/move/laugh at this post)

Cheers Kelly.


Saralinda Again - Aug 7, 2005 9:29 pm (#2186 of 2980)
Well, Snape is certainly "awful-er" than James by most measures. It's worth some thought, heaven knows. We can never predict entirely what JKR has up her sleeve.


Susurro Notities - Aug 7, 2005 9:37 pm (#2187 of 2980)
Edited by Aug 7, 2005 10:39 pm
Mooncalf,

I respectfully disagree with your statement in #2177 of this thread.

" And I think that Harry's face very likely would have shown repulsion when force-feeding poison to DD."
The description clearly states that Harry's feelings are toward himself "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing..." (HBP p.571, US hardcover) The rest of the scene portrays Harry as frightened ""... his hands shaking so badly..." (HBP p. 572, US hardcover)and "No... no, you're not dead, you said it wasn't poison, wake up, wake up..." (HBP p.574, US hardcover)and compassionate "It's all right, Professor... It's all right, I'm here." (HBP p.572, US hardcover) and "This will make it stop, Professor,' Harry said, his voice cracking..." (HBP p. 572, US hardcover)

Harry's feeling of revulsion would have been, as indicated in the text, turned inward. His outward actions and words of fear and compassion would have materialized as fear and pain in his facial expression - not revulsion. His concern for Dumbledore would have trumped his feelings toward himself.

In the end this is a discussion about the similarity between Harry's feelings and Snape's appearance. It was pointed out only to show that this similarity is not indicative of Snape's actions. Harry hates himself but Snape hates something external. What is it Snape hates? If it is the act the feeling is so powerful that Snape does not portray any feelings of pain and sadness that he must feel if he is indeed a good guy.


Delightful Task! - Aug 8, 2005 12:29 am (#2188 of 2980)
First post after reading HBP, and I still feel really confused... Anyway, reading your posts, I think my confusion will not improve thanks to you!!! (hehe!) After finishing the book, I definitely thought Snape was bad, and I didn't think it was possible to justify what he had done. The only way was: if DD had asked him to do so. Now, many of you seem to think it possible. Yet, I'm not convinced.

I think it's interesting to consider that Snape really is a bad guy. Redemption is something interesting too, and why should it have happened in the past? Why not in book seven?

Now, I can see many reasons why Snape could have chosen LV's side. I've always liked the theory about Snape's love for Lily. I'm happy so many of you consider it a possibility now. But this doesn't prove he changed sides in the end. LV killed Lily, but she chose to die, and if Snape was present, he saw it. He knew the Dark Lord as Snape puts it, had tried to save her. And if he was a double double triple triple... who had not really decided what side was the best for him, after all, DD, who was supposed to be so powerful, and on whom Snape relied to save Lily, had failed to save her. So I'm not sure that, when LV returned, Snape was so persuaded he loved DD and would be ready to die for him.

What's more, when you come to think about it, where is Snape's true family? The members of the OOP admit that they trusted Snape only because DD had asked them to do so... Narcissa on the other hand comes to him, begs him, touches him, physically!

There are many many things I'm thinking about, but I'll keep them for another post! This one is already far too long and too confused!


Sparrowhawk - Aug 8, 2005 3:11 am (#2189 of 2980)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 4:13 am
In order to perform the AK curse, we have been told that one needs to mean it. Therefore, whatever side he's on, Snape needed to put himself in a state that would allow him to kill DD... Do we know what he had in mind at that time? One could as easily imagine that he had Voldemort in his mind, for example, and that he used his feelings of hate towards him in order to perform the curse.

Harry is most certainly sincere, but that doesn't mean that his interpretation of Snape's face was correct - as a matter of fact, he has repeatedly proved himself thoroughly biased against Snape.

One of the problems that we are facing in this discussion, IMO, is our own tendency to judge everything in light of a "good versus evil" fight, with nothing between. Because Snape is a very nasty person, many people tend to assume that he can only be on the "bad" side, or that he'll eventually turn "good". What about someone who isn't truly good, yet finds himself working for the good side (for reasons we can guess at)? It complicates matters a little bit, yet makes them so much more interesting!


T Brightwater - Aug 8, 2005 6:01 am (#2190 of 2980)
septentrion: "DD would have wanted the others to live, even at the cost of his own life."

Consider, however, what has been said about murder in this book - that it is the ultimate evil, it damages the soul. Would DD want that for Snape?

It's possible that Snape has killed before and DD knew it; in that case DD might figure that it was better to protect the innocent, and he also gave Snape his permission, as someone said in a recent post, so that it wouldn't really be murder.

Here's another possibility - perhaps the revulsion and hatred comes from his previous memories of murder. If he was truly revolted by having killed someone on Voldemort's orders (Regulus???) perhaps _that_ was why he went over to DD, and why DD trusted him. He believed that he would never have to kill again - and then his Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa put him in exactly that position.

And yet there's Phineas Nigellus's words to Harry: "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but given the choice we will always save our own skins." (not exact quote, don't have the book handy.) I think JKR put that in for a reason.


S.E. Jones - Aug 8, 2005 6:05 am (#2191 of 2980)
Well put, Sparrowhawk! As Ron said in OotP in response to Hermione insisting Snape was on their side, "Doesn't stop him being a git." As I've said before, just because Snape isn't specifically against Voldemort doesn't mean he's necessarily on the Order's side, just as Percy isn't necessarily for Voldemort but still doesn't side with Dumbledore.


septentrion - Aug 8, 2005 6:24 am (#2192 of 2980)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 7:25 am
I don't think either DD would have wanted anyone to kill but then, when you're in such a dramatic situation, what to do ? DD was probably dying and Snape was in no position to help him. DD wanted Harry to be saved at all cost, that's what I think to be the meaning of DD's pleading. And I've got the feeling Snape has already killed (wouldn't be surprising with his past) but didn't like it at all. You can mean it when you kill, but you don't have to enjoy it for it to work IMHO. So it was the "reasonable" thing to do : to kill one person to save three lives (Snape, Draco and Harry) and one soul (Draco's soul). If not, there would have been four deaths. And only Snape could have done it, any other Order member we have met so far wouldn't have been able to make that choice, they would have chosen to die themselves but at what price ?


Delightful Task! - Aug 8, 2005 6:51 am (#2193 of 2980)
How do you explain that Snape went up the tower? Do you think he didn't know what was happening upstairs? He could have avoided joining the DEs and Draco, don't you think so? I don't know what to think!


constant vigilance - Aug 8, 2005 7:31 am (#2194 of 2980)
Delightful Task, I definately think Snape could have avoided going up to the Tower, if he didn't want to kill Dumbledore. I'm more inclined to believe what Draco said, about Snape wanting the glory.

In regards to Dumbledore sparing Snape and Draco. Well, Draco spared his own soul--he could not and did not kill. If Dumbledore and Draco had remained alone on that Tower, I think its possible Dumbledore could have helped Draco in another way. If Dumbledore made Snape promise to uphold the Unbreakable Vow (there's no evidence he did know, though) than that's nice for now. Dumbledore saved Snape from dying on that day. However, no Death Eater's life is guaranteed. Snape could be killed at any time if Voldemort feels like doing so.

Its a noble idea, that Dumbledore sacrificed himself for Snape. Although, I would have been more impressed if Snape had sacrificed himself, given that he willingly participated in the Unbreakable Vow.

I still believe Dumbledore was pleading for mercy.


septentrion - Aug 8, 2005 8:48 am (#2195 of 2980)
Snape was bound by his vow (to help, protect Draco and "carry out Draco's deed" if Draco was to fail, so as soon as Flitwick told him there were DE in the castle, he knew what was going on. He just had to follow the ruckus. Once he got through the magical barrier, the path was easy to find until the Astronomy tower.

I agree that if the DE hadn't reached the tower, DD would have convinced Draco to give up his "mission", but there were DE around them. What we don't know is : if Draco and Harry hadn't been on the tower, would have Snape sacrificed himself ? I believe he would. We find the characters in a very complex situation here where no satisfactory result can be reached. Whatever decision would have been made, one or more deaths would have occured. And if one death was to be avoided at any cost, it was Harry's life, so whatever side Snape is really on, the decision he made, the action he took were the ones to create the less trouble for the good side, even though it's not obvious for the people of said good side.


Weeny Owl - Aug 8, 2005 8:52 am (#2196 of 2980)
I'm not at all inclined to believe what Draco said about Snape wanting the glory. Draco is still a self-absorbed teen.

I think the most important question is why Dumbledore wanted Snape so badly from Hogsmeade on. What did he want Snape to do? Give a diagnosis as to what Dark Arts potion he drank? See if there was an antidote? Give instructions as to what to do since Dumbledore was probably dying anyway?

I don't see Dumbledore pleading for mercy because no matter how good Snape is, there were four Death Eaters in that tower besides Draco. Dumbledore would have realized the moment those four came in that he wouldn't get out of the tower alive. He knew Draco was there to kill him and even if Draco couldn't do it, one of those four would.

Snape is very easy to dislike and not trust because all we've seen of him until HBP was through Harry's eyes. JKR said Snape was a deeply horrible person, but she's used the word "horrible" in quite a few instances including how the Dursleys treat Harry. I agree... the Dursleys are awful to Harry, but they don't want him dead. I think Draco is horrible as well, but he couldn't kill Dumbledore. I also think what Quirrell said in the first book still applies... Snape hates Harry but doesn't want him dead.

While I believe Snape is working for Voldemort's ultimate defeat, I don't believe he's the Order's next head cheerleader. I think he's working with the Order to get rid of Voldemort because he realizes what harm will come to the Wizarding World should the good guys lose. He worked the potion logic puzzle in the first book and being logical he would realize that Voldemort's way of running things would only create havoc. He would also realize that what Dumbledore said is true... Voldemort treats his supporters the same way he treats his enemies.

Ultimately I believe that Snape may be on only one side... his own. He may be more like Regulus Black in wanting out, but he would also be intelligent enough, perhaps by seeing how others were dealt with, to know that he couldn't just leave without having a price on his head. He had nearly a year in GoF to know Voldemort was returning, to discuss options with Dumbledore, and to plan on what he could do to protect himself in the future. His answers to Bella's questions werent a spur-of-the-moment thing... he knew Voldemort would ask those very questions and he was prepared, just as Dumbledore asked him if he was in the hospital wing in GoF.

JKR left us with more questions than ever before. I can see her making Snape a bad guy, a good guy, or a guy who doesn't care much about anyone else but himself but who realizes Voldemort running the Wizarding World is a bad thing.


Delightful Task! - Aug 8, 2005 10:05 am (#2197 of 2980)
Anyway, we're in a situation where visibly, JKR wants us to believe that Snape is on LV's side! About Dumbledore's "please"... He could be asking Snape to spare him, he could even be asking Snape to kill him... But, what I thought when reading was rather that he meant "Snape, please, prove me that I was right about you because the consequences could be so horrible for everyone! Please, prove me I was right to trust you..." That's what I imagine people say when they realize they have made a horrible mistake. "please, let it not be true..."


Ann - Aug 8, 2005 10:43 am (#2198 of 2980)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 11:50 am
I've been resisting posting on this thread since I'd got about 300 posts behind--and I've only skimmed them, so I may have missed something--but anyway, here's my take on Snape after HBP:

He's Dumbledore's man, through and through. The parallelism with Harry is startling. Both Snape and Harry are ordered by Dumbledore to do something they don't want to do: injure Dumbledore to fulfill a larger goal. The difference is that we see the order in Harry's case, and we experience his anguish as he causes Dumbledore such agony by feeding him the potion. In the case of Snape, we have exactly the same situation, but we only see the action and his anguish. Harry sees his pain and anguish at what he has done as anger for being called a coward; but if you look at that passage again, you'll see that that was not what Snape started out to say; there's a dash in there. And Harry has just accused him of killing the wandless Dumbledore. Harry would of course have looked more compassionate to an outsider; he's not acting for an audience of DEs, and he doesn't have to summon whatever hatred/evil intent that is necessary to cast an AK (though it's actually the Crucio curse that were told by Bella has to be "meant" by the caster).

But what really makes the whole thing clear is the fact that Dumbledore would not beg for his life. Never. Remember, this is the man who said that "to the well-organized mind, death is but the next adventure" (or words to that effect). In SS/PS, Voldemort first says that Harry's parents died begging for mercy, and when Harry denies it he admits they "died bravely." Whose students were they? Who is the consumate Gryffindor? Dumbledore, die begging for his life? Never! Never. In JKR's world view, courage is the ultimate value; I can't believe she'd have Dumbledore die a coward.

Another argument for all this is the very minimal value Dumbledore clearly puts on his own life at this moment. All through the cave episode, Dumbledore is telling Harry that he is the valuable one, the important one. He won't even use Harry's blood to open the door. He doesn't see his life as important at this point, except insofar as he can dispose of it for strategic value in this important battle. He is tired. And, whatever that potion was, his begging there is clearly a preview of his begging to Snape "Don't hurt them, kill me instead." (or words to that effect). She couldn't have made the true situation any clearer without actually saying "Snape is truly on the side of the good."

And the whole thing makes strategic sense. If Snape had not killed Dumbledore, surely one of the other DEs, or even Draco, under their goading, would have. And what would have happened to Snape? He'd have died for failing to fulfil his vow. Dumbledore's a strategist, a chess player, and he knows that Snape, unlike the others, will use the prestige that murdering him will garner him in DE circles to fight Dumbledore's greatest enemy, the most evil wizard of all time. Would Dumbledore think that was worth it? Of course. In a heartbeat. Does anyone really believe that Draco could have disarmed Dumbledore if Dumbledore didn't want to be disarmed? That the wand flick it took him to petrify Harry would have prevented him from disarming Draco? I certainly don't.

And, finally, Dumbledore would trust Snape to the last, come heck or high water. Even if they hadn't argued it all out beforehand, as I think they had, as Snape walked towards him with his wand raised, Dumbledore would have been sure that Snape would do the right thing, whatever he thought that right thing was. Dumbledore trusted Snape. And he was right to do so. He would not beg him not to kill him, but, if he knew that Snape was reluctant to do so (and we have an account of their argument from Hagrid), I can easily see him begging Snape to do that, just as he begged when he took the potion in the cave.

This does not mean that Snape is not a nasty man, that he hasn't done horrible things, and that killing Dumbledore wasn't a terrible deed. But, at least in the last (and I suspect in much of the other two as well) he is acting evilly for a greater goal, and the greater good, with no concern for the (terrible) cost to himself.


Ponine - Aug 8, 2005 12:02 pm (#2199 of 2980)
Ann - Bautifully put; I believe you are right on target, and it was nicely tied in with the Gryffindor values, which I hadn't even considered, but you are so right! The only thing I am not convinced of is Snape actually killing Dumbledore, as I am not sure he is dead...

Other than that, I do believe, as many has stated before me that the emotions felt by Harry in the cave and Snape on the tower were surely similar, and I am convinced their expressions were similar as well. Disgust and hatred are pretty basic emotions, and will manifest as facial expressions, even if you, like Harry, are feeling a multitude of things at the time.


J Hood - Aug 8, 2005 12:31 pm (#2200 of 2980)
Loved the post Ann,

Now to nitpick (that's fun I've never used that word before). It actually helps your argument and it's what I told my dad when we were discussing it. We know from fake moody that you actually have to mean to use the AK. He said something about only getting a nose bleed if a whole class would try to AK him. (We learn that you have to enjoy pain to sustain the Crucio from Bella.) Anyway if he was going to AK DD he would have to really want to do it. This is why his face was like it was, this doesn't mean that he is not still on the Orders side, which I still believe he is.
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T Brightwater - Aug 8, 2005 1:10 pm (#2201 of 2980)
Great post, Ann!

In C.S. Lewis's _That Hideous Strength_, someone needs to be "possessed" by the planetary angels, the Oyarses, in order to destroy an enemy stronghold, but this would be disastrous for most people. Ransom explains that they need a good person who had willingly opened himself to outside powers, at a time when this was not as unlawful as it is now. Merlin was the one who fit the requirements - a tool good enough to be used, but not too good to use, and who was there to be called upon. (Sorry, I'm not explaining this very well.) I could see DD thinking that way about Snape.


Madam Pince - Aug 8, 2005 2:04 pm (#2202 of 2980)
Nice post, Ann! I'm in your corner.

In order to perform the AK curse, we have been told that one needs to mean it. --Sparrowhawk

I'm so glad you posted that -- it made me go back and look up Bella's exact words. Because everyone's been talking about the "hatred and revulsion" on Snape's face at the end of HBP, I was thinking along the lines of "you have to hate the person." Not so. You only have to "mean" it -- in other words, you have to want what the curse does, to actually happen. So Snape could actually have wanted Dumbledore to die, without hating him. If Dumbledore wanted to die, then Snape could've wanted it too, assuming they had a plan together and both wanted it to succeed. This helps me get around the "hate/revulsion" thing. He could be hating/revulsed by what he had to do, and yet still made the AK "work" because he "wanted" it to work.

That seems convoluted, but it makes sense in my poor little brain...


S.E. Jones - Aug 8, 2005 3:49 pm (#2203 of 2980)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 4:50 pm
Oh, bravo Ann! What a wonderful post.

To add something to your eloquent argument, we also have to remember what would have happened to Draco, had Dumbledore not been killed. Draco told Myrtle that he had to kill Dumbledore or Voldemort would have him killed. I'm guessing that's why the other four Death Eaters ran up to the tower, to either force him into it or kill him and do it themselves. In Dumbledore's view, talking Draco out of it may have been 'plan A', but by the time the others reached the tower, it may have been time for 'plan B' (that being, as Ann said, for Snape to kill Dumbledore and save Draco).


Chemyst - Aug 8, 2005 4:02 pm (#2204 of 2980)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 5:24 pm
*** joins ovation for Ann *** ...and thanks, you gave me an idea for the why DD trusts trusted Snape thread.


constant vigilance - Aug 8, 2005 5:24 pm (#2205 of 2980)
He would also realize that what Dumbledore said is true... Voldemort treats his supporters the same way he treats his enemies. --Weeny Owl

Maybe this belongs on a different thread, but I am curious why we should believe that Voldemort will give Draco a second chance? Ultimately Voldemort's plan of killing Dumbledore has been put to fruition. However, according to Voldemort it was Draco, and not Severus, who was supposed to do it. And Draco was to be killed if he failed---which he did. What reason does Voldemort have to spare him? The Unbreakable Vow was between Narcissa and Severus--not Voldemort.


Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 8, 2005 6:09 pm (#2206 of 2980)
Ann I've been a doubter in the "Snape is really good" argument. I have felt that Dumbledore was far to important to die. You have brought up some things that are convincing me he did act on Dumbledore's orders. Especially the courage aspect. I have to agree on that. You are also right in that Dumbledore would have been killed anyway. I would rather Snape do the deed quickly and cleanly rather than have Fenrir attack Dumbledore. I doubt if Snape could have protected Dumbledore. As soon as he tried he probably would have died from the curse. LPO


wynnleaf - Aug 8, 2005 7:40 pm (#2207 of 2980)
Ann, that was a superb post!

I’d like to add the evidence that has been especially in my mind recently.

Horcruxes. DD trusted Snape completely. Snape had apparently helped DD when he came back from procuring the ring, but was gravely injured. After returning from the Cave, DD immediately wants to get to Snape to get help again. I think it’s pretty clear that since DD both trusted Snape so much, and because Snape was integral to dealing with the dark magic surrounding the horcruxes, DD certainly had to have discussed the horcruxes with Snape.

And since it seems clear that LV didn’t know DD was on the trail of the horcruxes (no evidence that anyone other than R.A.B. had been to the Cave since LV left the locket in the first place, or that LV knew R.A.B. had been there), then that means Snape didn’t tell LV what DD was doing. If LV had known DD was going after the horcruxes, he'd have done something to protect them, necessitating somehow checking on them again.

Further, in oop, during the time that LV was trying to find a way to get to the prophecy, Harry was dreaming LV’s thoughts. When Snape read those thoughts and dreams in Harry’s mind, he related them to DD. We know this because DD tells Harry what Snape related to him about LV’s thoughts. No true DE would have told DD what LV’s thoughts were and what he was doing and planning at that time. We know these were LV’s real thoughts that Snape related to DD – not some devised lie to fool DD – because we saw those thoughts first when Harry dreamed them, and later read DD telling about how Snape had related LV's thoughts to him.

Snape has discussed and aided DD concerning some of LV’s most protected aspects -- his thoughts and the pieces of his soul. No DE would do this. Yet to do these things, while continuing to play the role of a double agent is extremely perilous.

Last, if you conclude that Snape had to be following DD, then Snape must have told DD right away about the unbreakable vow. In any case, DD learned about it months before his actual death. So he had lots of time to consider how to deal with the vow, the various implications, etc. Can we really think that DD would ever just decide to let either Draco or Snape die? Of course not. He would have worked to find a solution that would secure the best circumstances to continue to fight LV, while still attempting to save both Snape and Draco.


Madam Pince - Aug 8, 2005 7:46 pm (#2208 of 2980)
wynnleaf, excellent points! I had not thought of the fact that surely Severus knew about Dumbledore's search for the horcruxes, and yet apparently Voldemort remained unaware of it. As you say, certainly Voldemort would've been scrambling to try to protect them even more, if he knew Dumbledore was after them. So therefore, Severus did not share crucial "Dumbledore" information with Voldemort, while we know he did share crucial "Voldemort" information with Dumbledore (Voldy's thoughts in OoP).

Ten points for the "Snape is Good!" side!


Susurro Notities - Aug 8, 2005 7:51 pm (#2209 of 2980)
Do we know that Voldemort has not been taking steps to increase protection of the horcuxes?


Madam Pince - Aug 8, 2005 7:55 pm (#2210 of 2980)
No, I suppose we don't know about all the other horcruxes. But we know he didn't do anything about the Cave/Locket one, or else I don't see how he wouldn't have discovered the switch.


Susurro Notities - Aug 8, 2005 8:09 pm (#2211 of 2980)
Edited by Aug 8, 2005 9:13 pm
We don't know he didn't do anything about the cave/locket - maybe we saw increased security. It is possible he didn't check to be sure the locket was the one he placed there.

If he did know about the switch - possibly learned when he went to the cave to increase the security - how would we know that? Present day Voldemort didn't make an appearance in this book. The only current information we learned about him was that he was very mad at Lucius Malfoy's failure at the Ministry, that he wanted Draco to kill Dumbledore, and that his soul is scattered hither, thither, and yon.

I wonder how angry Voldemort is at Snape for making the vow and subverting his revenge against Lucius.


Madam Pince - Aug 8, 2005 8:16 pm (#2212 of 2980)
If Voldemort opened the locket and read the note from R.A.B., I can't see him folding it neatly and putting it back inside the locket and then putting the locket back in the basin. It's possible, I suppose, but it doesn't seem too likely to me.

You're right, though, we don't know for sure either way. I suppose I am just readily accepting of more proof of Snape being good!


Ag Hart - Aug 9, 2005 12:06 am (#2213 of 2980)
Ann- No, Dumbledore would not plead for his life, because not only is he the quintessential Griffindor as you so eloquently argue, but it would render the entire scene where he forces Harry to realize the importance of choice in meeting death and facing death on one's own terms a farce. It would make Dumbledore the ultimate hypocrite, and that he is definitely not.

We have been discussing whether or not Snape has betrayed Dumbledore, and I have rather mixed feelings about his guilt. However, in view of DD's emphasis on choice as the means by which we create ourselves, I thought I might look at Snape's situation from a different angle. One way to look at Snape is as a recovering addict, one who is addicted to the Dark Arts and who will never be cured. Dumbledore knows this and has helped him avoid temptation by denying him the DADA position. Sending Snape into harm's way seems such a risk for both the Order and Snape personally. This raises certain questions: Does Dumbledore betray Snape by placing him into overwhelming temptation? Or.... is it just possible that Snape has been given the ultimate opportunity to redeem himself for his role in the Potters' deaths and pay off the life debt he owes James once and for all by destroying his son's nemesis? Is this an opportunity to assuage the guilt and rid himself of the pain Snape feels whenever he looks at Harry and is reminded of what he owes? If Snape is able to overcome his evil inclinations, it will be a great victory because he has had so much to overcome. Dumbledore may have faith in Snape, but perhaps he is also giving Snape the choice to recreate himself through choice. .....Just a little something to add into the mix.


Delightful Task! - Aug 9, 2005 12:10 am (#2214 of 2980)
I don't think DD talked about the horcruxes with Snape. I think that, just like the prophecy, this is something between Harry and DD. And I'm still convinced Snape could have avoided making that vow, and could have avoided going up the tower... Yet, I promise I really want to be convinced! help!


septentrion - Aug 9, 2005 12:22 am (#2215 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 1:23 am
I support your theory completely Wynnleaf;

Another little something to add to the mix : on the tower, DD tells Draco he's not a murderer, because if he was one, he would have killed DD right away and no nice chat would have happened. When Snape arrives, he swept the scene with his eyes (and not the brooms LOL), strides to DD only after DD pleads, then stares at him (note : doesn't kill him right away) and utters the killing curse only after DD pleads for the second time. We can suppose some form of communication occured while Snape stared at DD, one which doesn't automatically imply legilimency but more like two people who know each other very well don't need to always speak to understand each other. Snape didn't kill DD right away either.

I'm sure DD didn't wish any deaths or soul-splitting to occur, but I'm convinced he kind of foresaw this would happen : I believe he knew about the Unbreakable Vow, and as soon as Draco started his plan, Snape had to intervene. The Vow is the reason why I think Snape was given the DADA position. In Spinner's End, Snape talks as if DD would never give him that position, but on the 1st of Sept, we learn that Snape is the DADA teacher. What can justify this change of mind from DD ? The Vow : if Draco failed to kill DD (not to tempt anything isn't even an option), Snape was to carry out the deed. That is to say that even if DD had convinced Draco to go into hiding, Snape would have had to kill DD to save his own skin, so whatever would happen, Snape would have had to leave Hogwarts. So why not giving him that cursed position he so wanted, giving the opportunity to get Slughorn and his precious memories back to hogwarts ? I can believe that DD had Snape make a promise the same kind he had Harry made one : whatever happens, do it. My life isn't important, Harry must survive.


Chemyst - Aug 9, 2005 5:10 am (#2216 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 6:13 am
I don't think DD talked about the horcruxes with Snape. [...] Yet, I promise I really want to be convinced! help! -Delightful Task!

If not, then what do you think DD answers upon his return from destroying the horcrux in the ring when Snape likely says to him, 'I need to know exactly how this happened to your hand so that I can apply the correct cure.' -OR- do you think that it was because DD didn't tell Snape about the horcrux that DD's hand could not be fully healed?

My thought is that if Snape is treating a horcrux-induced injury, be probably knows about horcruxes, either from being told or because he knows enough to figure it out.


Ag Hart - Aug 9, 2005 6:29 am (#2217 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 7:34 am
There is much to consider in HBP regarding Snape's apparent betrayal of Dumbledore. If Snape is guilty,why would JKR give so much away as early as the second chapter? If Snape is pretending to be a loyal member of the Order why would he argue with DD and risk his suspicions? After hearing Harry's account of the exchange between Draco and Snape during which the Unbreakable Vow was mentioned, why didn't DD take measures to guard himself? What was really going on during the brief exchange of gazes on top of the tower? Just as DD seemed to sense the invisible Harry's presence in CoS, could Snape another accomplished Legilimens, do likewise? How would that affect our interpretation of Snape's actions on the tower? Why did Snape stop the Death Eater from torturing Harry, since that wouldn't prevent Voldemort from killing Harry if he wished to do it personally?

However, when we begin to reread the previous books, I know we will see other evidence, both for and against Snape. We will begin to reevaluate everything in light of what we now know. Without rereading, I know that his argument with Fudge in the hospital scene, where he shows the Dark Mark on his arm and risks exposing himself as a Death Eater to Harry, is a point in his favor. He could be acting, but the fact that he turns white when DD sends him back to Voldemort (to do what he must) is a good sign that Snape was at least sincere at that point. If we assume that Snape is the one referred to by V, as having left him forever, why did V seem so certain that Snape had indeed changed sides, especially if he knew Snape had been a counterspy before? However, why was Snape so very upset, while tutoring Harry in OotP, that Harry could see into the Dark Lord's mind and knew what had just presently happened? Snape's reaction seemed rather strong, since he already knew Harry hadn't been successfully blocking out access to V's mind already. Did he fear exposure? I'm sure we will have even more questions once we begin to search the previous books?

And....why was JKR "stunned" that one interviewer saw a redemptive pattern in Snape?

I'm still debating Snape's guilt. The only thing I'm certain of is that nothing is as it seems.


Mrs Brisbee - Aug 9, 2005 6:29 am (#2218 of 2980)
My thought is that if Snape is treating a horcrux-induced injury, be probably knows about horcruxes, either from being told or because he knows enough to figure it out. --Chemyst

I agree. Voldemort made the Horcruxes, and he knew about them when he was a teenager. Dumbledore knows they exist. As does Slughorn, though he might be in denial. R.A.B. figured it out. The students at Durmstrang actually learn the Dark Arts, so its possible that every single upperclassman knows what a Horcrux is. Who knows what they teach at Beaubaxtons, or other foreign schools either. Dumbledore thinks it is a big secret that needs to be kept from the Order and everybody else, but a few people here and there certainly do know about Horcruxes, and might be thinking that if Voldy didn't die like he was supposed to he might actually have one. And Voldy should know that they know, and they should know that Voldy knows that they know, etc. I think it likely that Super!Snape, Master of the Dark Arts, can put the clues together. The leap is in figuring out that Voldemort has more than one Horcrux. Did Snape know about the diary and its fate? I remember Bella mentioning something in "Spinner's End", but I don't think she went into detail. If Snape knew about the diary, then I think he could figure out the whole multiple Horcrux thing.


Delightful Task! - Aug 9, 2005 6:32 am (#2219 of 2980)
Thanks Chemyst! I read that chapter about the Horcruxes again, and I think you could be right... The fact that Snape saved DD when he came back after destroying the ring is no proof in itself, according to me. But the association with the sentence "When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated (...)I'm told his anger was terrible to behold"... could be revealing. It makes me think that Snape witnessed it and knew there was more to the diary that one could think... That was my feeling when reading, I might be wrong. Now, if Snape knows, he could help Harry find the Horcruxes in a way or another, and help him destroy them... OR, he could warn LV that He'd better watch his horcruxes! Which makes me hope he is on the good side in the end!!!


Herm oh ninny - Aug 9, 2005 6:39 am (#2220 of 2980)
I wouldn't be surprised if, in book 7, Harry keeps getting these cryptic little messsages that give him clues as to where to look for the Horcruxes. And, later on, we will find out that it was Snape who was sending them.


Delightful Task! - Aug 9, 2005 6:51 am (#2221 of 2980)
Herm oh ninny! I thought the same thing! Mrs Brisbee, I couldn't find any reference in Spinner's end, do you remember what you were thinking about?


Mrs Brisbee - Aug 9, 2005 6:55 am (#2222 of 2980)
I've really got to reread the book so my brains not so fuzzy on the details!

But it was Bella saying something about Lucius, and why she wasn't on close terms with the Dark Lord anymore.... I gathered when I read it that the diary had been her charge originally, but while she was in Azkaban Lucius was supposed to look after it-- we know how that went. I'll try to look it up later, if I can find my book.


wynnleaf - Aug 9, 2005 7:06 am (#2223 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 8:07 am
Ag Hart said: "However, why was Snape so very upset, while tutoring Harry in OotP, that Harry could see into the Dark Lord's mind and knew what had just presently happened? Snape's reaction seemed rather strong, since he already knew Harry hadn't been successfully blocking out access to V's mind already. Did he fear exposure? I'm sure we will have even more questions once we begin to search the previous books?"

I read back over this yesterday. In "The Lost Prophecy" chapter of OOP, DD makes it clear that Snape told him everything that Harry was seeing in his dreams, which I can't see Snape doing if he's loyal to LV. I went back to "Seen and Unforeseen" (that you referenced above). At that point, Harry has already seen into Snape's mind, but then they go at it again and Snape sees Harry seeing something Harry's never seen before. This is important. Before, it was Snape seeing Harry's memories of things he'd dreamed previously (like the LV and Rookwood scene). They seem to both, Harry and Snape, be seeing this for the first time together. So what would that mean? That Harry was even at that moment linked to LV?

"'POTTER!'" "Harry opened his eyes. He was flat on his back again"......

Harry is panting and physically reacting as though he'd actually just been running. More evidence that he was actually connected with LV at that moment?

"'Explain yourself!' said Snape, who was standing over him, looking furious."

Harry goes on to say he'd never seen that before and it had never happened like that before.

"'You are not working hard enough!' For some reason, Snape seemed even angrier than he had done two minutes before, when Harry had seen into his own memories. 'You are lazy and sloppy, Potter, it is small wonder that the Dark Lord - '"

I think what we're seeing here is either 1. Snape has just seen evidence that Harry even at that moment was connected to LV and not therefore (in Snape's opinion), trying to block LV at all. or 2. Snape is angry to see that LV is getting even closer to his goal. or 3. Snape is angry because he knows Harry was just connected to LV and he's afraid LV will sense both he and Harry's presence.

Since Snape's reaction is pure anger, not fear, I don't think 3 would be it. Since it wouldn't be Harry's fault if LV is getting closer to his goal of the prophecy, I don't think that's what he's angry about - he direct his comments to Harry's actions ("Explain yourself")and his being "lazy and sloppy." I think he's angry because he's getting immediate evidence that Harry's not blocking LV, even at the moment in Occlumency lessons when he's supposed to be working his hardest at it.

If, as Harry later wonders, Snape is sort of softening Harry up so LV can connect with Harry at will, then none of the above explanations of Snape's anger fit. In fact, his anger would seem to me inexplicable.


Oliver Wood - Aug 9, 2005 7:09 am (#2224 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 8:10 am
Here's an unrelated question. In GoF, when LV is walking around the circle of death eaters, he reaches a large gap in the cirlce. He says, "and here we have 6 missing death eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service." the three dead are fairly insignificant I would think, the one to cowardly to return would refer to Karkaroff, the faithful servant would be Crouch Jr. working up at Hogwarts, which leaves the servant who left him forever. Now it could be concluded that this was Snape? However, he wasn't killed because DD later encouraged him to go back. I can't see Snape sweet talking LV with praise and apologies, but he didn't wind up dead through book 6 either, and he was most definatly a death eater.


Delightful Task! - Aug 9, 2005 7:23 am (#2225 of 2980)
I found the sentence you referred to, Mrs Brisbee !

Spinner's end p 34 Bloomsbury kid's edition:

"the Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious - if Lucius hadn't-" This is a very interesting sentence indeed!!! It sounds as if "Bella" knew what the diary really was... Had she always known? Or did LV reveal too much in his anger? Anyway, the reaction of both Narcissa and Snape ("what is done is done") could mean that they all know the diary was a Horcrux... And what's more, Bella, if she knew about the Horcruxes before LV's fall, could be a direct link to RAB!


Ann - Aug 9, 2005 7:24 am (#2226 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 8:28 am
Snape quotes Voldemort about his belief that Snape has left him forever in chapter 2 of HBP. I think that was not Snape speaking, really, but Jo Rowling hoping to put an end to our interminable discussion of that sentence!

I agree with those who believe Snape is probably pretty well up on Horcruxes and fairly sure that Voldemort has made one or more. (Could there be hints in earlier books? I haven't got them here.) But I doubt he's discussed this explicitly with either Voldemort or Dumbledore. Voldemort wouldn't talk about it because the Horcruxes are more secure if no one knows; and Dumbledore, I suspect, would say something like 'You are quite probably aware, Severus, exactly what kind of object it is that Voldemort would see fit to protect so viciously. But I think it would be better not to discuss this unless the circumstances make such a discussion necessary, lest your Master discover your knowledge and mine'.

Thanks for all the kind words about my long and somewhat confused post. <She blushes.> As I said, I'd been reading the thread, and lots of posts seemed to be missing the point, and I was suddenly seized by an irresistible missionary zeal.... I'm glad people found the summary helpful.

Edit: Mrs Brisbee and DelightfulTask, what an interesting passage! It could indeed mean something very significant. Or, I suppose, it could be simply that Bella used to be entrusted with his most precious (thoughts? affection? body?!?) until Lucius prevented her from doing things her way at the DoM.


haymoni - Aug 9, 2005 7:48 am (#2227 of 2980)
I didn't think it was the diary that Bella was speaking of.

I thought it was the bungled MOM incident.

They didn't get the Prophesy. Lucius got caught. Bella wanted to blast Harry and Lucius stopped her.

Voldy is disappointed in Bella, so he doesn't let her in on things anymore.


septentrion - Aug 9, 2005 8:29 am (#2228 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 9:30 am
LV hints in the graveyard in GoF that he told something to his DE about "the steps he took against mortal death" (strange that he needs to precise mortal death, as if there was a non mortal death). It could be a reference to horcruxes but I'm not sure LV would have told about them to his DE. Perhaps has he hinted about one horcrux to some of his nearest servants but I really don't think he would have done more. Too dangerous.

Delightful Task, about that sentence, I think too it's more a reference to the fiasco in the Ministry, where Lucius was in charge.

The discussion about the occlumency lessons has made me thought of this : what if Snape put his memory in the pensieve not to prevent Harry to see them (even if it's a bonus) but to prevent Voldemort to see them ? I mean, Snape is a superb occlumens, so he can hide them from LV, but he has no faith in Harry, and if Harry, facing LV, or through his connection, showed them to LV, wouldn't they give to LV big clues about Snape's psychology and real loyalties ? Besides, we don't absolutely know if Voldemort knows anything about the occlumency lessons.


HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 9, 2005 8:52 am (#2229 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 9:53 am
I liked your "summing it up" post, too, Ann! It hits the nail on the head - so to speak.

One of the last events in Spinners End is the scene where Snape makes the Vow with Narcissa. The very next chapter opens with DD setting his affairs in order - *hint hint* . I got the feeling throughout the book that DD had a sense of urgency and was racing against time in an effort to try and get Harry situated as well as possible before departing.

I don't think DD would have predicted exactly when where and how he would die, but I think he included Snape for more reasons than meets the eye just as I think Snape kept DD informed of everything, including the Unbreakable Vow hence, DD's death was imminent.

With regard to Snape's knowledge of horcruxes, a passage in the first book still stands out in my mind by Snape to "put a stopper in death".

septentrion, that is a valid explanation. If Snape does not want to be revealed to Big V, I can see him losing his patience with Harry.


Kevin Corbett - Aug 9, 2005 8:53 am (#2230 of 2980)
Edited by Aug 9, 2005 9:58 am
I found it interesting to reflect on this: Snape apparently knew LV was getting stronger throughout the fourth year (and he told DD so, if I recall correctly), and as he himself said, he had plenty of time to consider his options. But, in those critical two hours between LV's rebirthing and Snape's meeting with LV, he appeared in Barty Crouch Jr.'s foe-glass as distinctly as as Dumbledore or McGonagal. One would think that, if his true intentions were to wait till Dumbledore gave him the okay and then truly rejoin LV's service with Dumbledore only thinking he was a spy, then he would not have an enemy to Jr. at all. If the foe-glass only to showed you who you *thought* your enemies were (and Jr. certainly considered Snape an enemy), there wouldn't be much point to it---the point is to show you who your unknown enemies are, and apparently, on the night of the rebirthing, Severus Snape was indeed an enemy of Voldemort's "most faithful servant", and perhaps the true enemy of Voldemort himself.


Madam Pince - Aug 9, 2005 10:35 am (#2231 of 2980)

***Applauds Kevin's most eloquent point***

I don't know, guys, that sentence "...entrusted me with his most precious..." doesn't sound like an incident to me, it sounds more like an item. If it was an incident, I would think she would've used the word "important" rather than "precious." That sentence has been bugging the heck out of me since July 17th. What precious? The locket? The ring? Did Bella ever wear either of them? I just don't know... I think the "precious" is going to be something we haven't been introduced to yet.


haymoni - Aug 9, 2005 10:36 am (#2232 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 11:37 am
But Barty Jr. didn't like ANY Death Eater that went free.

Snape could have been in the foe glass because he was loyal to Dumbledore, but he also could have been in there because he hadn't rushed to Voldy's aid.

Sort of "If you aren't for me, you are against me." kind of thing.

What is interesting is that Snape turned and looked at the foe glass. What did he see? Harry says that he turned and looked at himself in the foe glass. Does the foe glass operate like the mirror of Erised? Did Snape see something else in the glass?

Madam P - I thought Bella meant that he trusted her with his most precious secrets.


Gina R Snape - Aug 9, 2005 10:43 am (#2233 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 11:47 am
Kevin, that point about the Foe Glass has been for me one of the most compelling proofs of the entire series.

Well, I've been working on catching up on this thread in sheer agony! Soooo many really good posts, and I don't wish to repeat ideas I agree with (e.g. Ann's post about 20 - 40 or so posts back) so I'll just move on to a few other thoughts I've had.

I posted on Why DD trusts Snape but was roundly ignored in the intense discussion of Madam Pince. So I'm reposting my thoughts here and adding a bit to them.

Firstly, I waver on the idea of DD doing an unbreakable vow with Snape. Such a vow offers no choices and DD likes for people to make choices. However, I could easily see James telling DD "no way do I trust this guy. Only way he's in to help us is with an unbreakable vow." In that case, James Potter could've been the third person as witness, and he's dead now so no other witnesses to the act.

Secondly, what if the thing of great danger that Snape did was to ask the Dark Lord to spare Lily at the behest of Dumbledore? Snape confesses his caring for Lily Potter to DD, and his intense remorse. DD figures out that the "old magic" would protect Harry if Lily sacrifices herself (in the event the fidelius charm doesn't hide them or something). It's a gamble for anyone to ask the Dark Lord a favour, but especially to spare the muggleborn mother of the child prophesized to bring his downfall.

Finally, I cannot believe Snape would be a death eater and have early interest in dark arts and STILL have a pure soul. No way it's possible. Therefore, I think DD was trying to protect both Harry and Draco's souls, and allowed Snape to use the AK curse on him knowing his soul was already at leat a bit tainted.

I think the dark arts (and particular unforgiveable curses) are dark because they damage your soul. That's why Snape tells Potter not to use them. Unforgiveable curses aren't unforgiveable because they are illegal, but because they are irreversable to the soul. Other dark arts don't rip the soul, but probably compromise it's purity. Snape was into the dark arts early on so even his childhood soul was wounded--though not ripped.

As for Snape's parents, I can easily see Eileen's powers diminished because of depression and the effects of spousal abuse. Snape, witnessing this, strives to make himself a more powerful wizard. I suspect Tobias was yelling at her because he discovers young Severus has magical ability. Perhaps he never knew Eileen was a witch before then.

Phew! It feels goooood to be back on this thread!

ETA: Three other things! I think Snape is holding onto Wormtail because he knows Wormtail owes Harry a life debt, and Snape plans on using it to his advantage when the time comes.

I think Snape's life debt to James was part and parcel of his going to DD when he discovered the target of the prophesy. He regrets Lily's death, sure. I highly doubt he'd regret James' death. But I do think he'd regret not seeking to fulfill a life debt.

Urgh, I forgot the third. Will probably remember later...


Wizadora - Aug 9, 2005 10:51 am (#2234 of 2980)
Kevin, - What an excellent idea.

Now I think that we are getting somewhere with this, the discussion about the past books is really enlightening.


Gina R Snape - Aug 9, 2005 10:55 am (#2235 of 2980)
Oh, I love the idea of Snape sending Harry "hints" about the Horcruxes. I definitely think he knew about them. He more or less lied to Bellatrix and said DD was injured at the Ministry, when it was actually the horcrux that injured him.

And I think Snape had plenty of time to squirrel away valuables. I thought I was the only one who thought about Snape's belongings left behind!!! Heeee.


Lina - Aug 9, 2005 11:03 am (#2236 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 12:08 pm
There are people on this Forum that, if they saw Snape helping an old woman to cross the street, they would still think that he was evil. Now, I'm not saying that it is wrong, just that I am the opposite. I see him killing DD and I still think that he is a good guy. Sorry. I agree that he is a bully, a very immature man, but still a good guy.

I have put the question in this thread several times before HBP came out: "Why DD trusts him so much?" DD just seemed to be certain that Snape is no longer a DE. Too certain that he could have been wrong. They have questioned him several times, not just Harry, and he didn't consider changing his mind. I was thinking about some sort of magic, like an unbreakable vow that should have made it sure that he wouldn't change the side again, but there were some people who thought that it wouldn't be DD's way of acting and they convinced me.

Now, I am going to repeat something that I have posted several times elsewhere. I think that everybody expected LV to make a horcrux, but nobody expected him to make several of them. My guess is that Snape found out about the horcrux that LV gave Bella to keep it (the Diary) and probably the R.A.B. one (the locket). We could talk about how did he find out about them, I've put some ideas in the "Why DD trusts Snape" thread, but I think that he told DD that there are more than one of them and that DD saw it as handing him the weapon to defeat LV and as a real proof that Snape is not at the LV's side. As he said at the end of GoF, anybody who is against LV is on the same side as DD. My opinion is that it was the spying job that Snape had for the order: to find out about other horcruxes, either from LV, either from other DEs. It is not impossible that he brought the information about the ring as well.

As we know, JKR never puts anything in her books just like that (except that boy, Mark Evans). I'm sure that the argument between Snape and DD that Hagrid overheard is not at all unimportant. What is the thing about Snape that DD takes for granted and that Snape might not carry on? Well, I think that DD's pleading fits here very well. He begged Snape to carry on whatever he was threatening that he wouldn't. I guess this includes helping Harry to find the other horcruxes. I think that DD thought that Snape would be much more successful in finding them at this point than him and especially in destroying them. DD showed to be quite reckless in retrieving them until that point. Why is it so, It is not a question for this thread. As much as DD is a great wizard, Snape knows much more about dark magic and that is the knowledge that could be much more useful now. The other members of the Order might have not loved him, might have doubted him, but they have respected him because DD told them so. LV has never respected anybody and by killing DD, Snape was loosing all the respect he had in his life. No wonder he was full of hatred! If he really wanted to kill DD, he could have failed to cure him after the accident with the ring curse, couldn't he? No one else could have helped DD at that point. Snape could have said that it was a magic too dark even for him and nobody would have blamed him. But no, he manages to save DD's life and body, except for that hand. And he didn't tell the other DE's how did DD get injured, he let them think that it is the injury from the battle in the Mom.

I liked your idea very much, Surtseystwin!

And your idea about re using the phrases, Mrs. Sirius, too. I hope that we will se the one "from that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can’t share without ending up liking each other…" applied to Harry and Snape.

I had some more ideas, but the post is long enough already.


Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 9, 2005 11:09 am (#2237 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 12:16 pm
Surtseystwin, I liked your idea about Snape facing the Wizengamot and Harry testifying on his behalf it has poignancy to it.

Gina, I think your points about Snape are very insightful I am inclined to agree. I can see Dumbledore being wary of entering to an unbreakable vow but, that James would encourage him to do so as a measure of added insurance.


Kevin Corbett - Aug 9, 2005 3:06 pm (#2238 of 2980)
Edited by Aug 9, 2005 4:12 pm
I don't think the foe-glass works quite like the Mirror of Erised, that it shows everyone their own personal enemies, because Dumbledore and McGonagal appeared in it to Harry, and I really doubt they are his enemies. So I must conclude that it shows the enemies of the owner alone.

As for the fact that Crouch Jr. didn't like any of the Death Eaters that went free---like I said, I don't think the point of the foe-glass is to show you who you like or dislike (because you obviously already know that), but to show you who is squarely against you and means to thwart your plans, whether you like them or not. So, if Snape was really intending to rejoin Voldemort as a geniune Death Eater pretending to be "Dumbledore's stooge", it would seem that, whatever Crouch Jr. thought of Snape, they would be reluctant allies. The foe-glass is, I think, not so much about action as intention. And who knows---maybe, had Crouch Jr. managed to get back to him, he would have eventually approved of Snape's remaining at Hogwarts all those years if he thought doing so had truly benefited Voldemort.

And forgive me for waxing a bit affectedly eloquent back there---I just thought it was an interesting point to consider, especially since no one else had mentioned it yet.


Gina R Snape - Aug 9, 2005 3:41 pm (#2239 of 2980)
Actually, Kevin, I included it in my defence of Snape for the Accio trial, which I posted here about a month ago. No worries. Good ideas (and some not-so-good ones too) come back for re-reflection all the time.


wynnleaf - Aug 9, 2005 3:44 pm (#2240 of 2980)
Surtseystwin, I also like your idea. It concerns me that everyone (including me), seems to think that Snape is almost definitely a doomed character in Book 7. I see that all over the forum -- that Snape will die in Book 7. I can understand all the "Snape is evil" people thinking that. But for those of us that think he's still on DD's side -- well, I guess most feel that JKR has got Snape into such a difficult spot that it's the only answer. EVERYone now in the books seems to consider him a DE -- and the DE that's killed the most beloved wizard DD. So no matter what he does, it seems like the only way to redeem Snape is for him to do something so remarkably heroic that he dies in the process. Everybody grieves, maybe feels that they all were mistaken in him, and he gets posthumous awards. But like you say, that's really too easy and wouldn't be nearly as satisfying, or have the degree of growth for Harry, as the possibility that you describe.

Thanks for giving a possible outcome that could work without Snape's death.


kezz brady - Aug 9, 2005 4:33 pm (#2241 of 2980)
Hi there, just a thought about Snape's background. Now that we know that he has muggle relations, could it be possible that the Snapes were acquainted with the Evans? This would explain several things. He and Lily could have been childhood friends which would explain her reaction to the mudblood comment in the pensieve. She would have known that he was a half blood so it would be a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Losing her friendship like that could have been the worst memory, rather than being humiliated by James. If their families had been acquainted, it would also explain some of Petunia's attitude. The "awful boy" she heard discussing dementors she mentions in OOTP could have been Snape rather than James. This would make more sense as a childhood conversation rather than as one between boyfriend/girlfriend. It could also explain why Lily's parents were pleased when she received her letter from Hogwarts, otherwise they would not have really known what it meant. An older friendship between Lily and Snape would also give more weight to an argument about any attempt he made to save her.


Chemyst - Aug 9, 2005 7:45 pm (#2242 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 8:51 pm
It concerns me that everyone (including me), seems to think that Snape is almost definitely a doomed character in Book 7. – wynnleaf

In some odd and not-yet fully explicable twist, I think Snape's AK'ing of DD might improve Snape's chances of making it through. The DE's will fear Snape more and be less likely to challenge him. The Ministry will have mixed feelings; part of it will be relieved DD is out of the way while another part still follows procedure enough that they won't point to kill but would bring Snape in alive for a trial if they could find him. The remaining Order members would want him alive to get some answers. The readers need some resolution too. Only Harry wants him dead now.

That is why Surtseystwin's idea of Harry's testimony vindicating Snape is so appealing. Rowling has led (forced?) us to have such an intensity of emotional investment in Snape that he needs to be around for the resolution. There has to be a better story than having Harry learn the last secret for killing LV during Snape's deathbed scene, doesn't there? We've been preached to all along that it was love that first spared Harry and that it will be Harry's capacity to love that will finally enable him to defeat LV. At the end of book six, Harry would love nothing more than a dead Snape, but I'm pretty sure that's not what DD meant.


Ag Hart - Aug 9, 2005 7:50 pm (#2243 of 2980)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 8:53 pm
Lina--Perhaps the fact that Dumbledore has asked Snape to protect Harry and help him complete his mission is not only the reason for the argument ( the something that DD takes too much for granted) but also another source for the rage Snape exhibits when facing DD on top of the tower. It is bad enough to be thought of as the Great Betrayer of possibly the greatest wizard ever, but killing the man who kept him out of Azkaban for a boy he despises is just too much. Snape already resents the life debt he owes to James, but if he must now sacrifice the man who gave him a second chance (perhaps resulting in another life debt), no wonder he reacts the way he does in attacking Dumbledore, especially in DD's weakened state. The "revulsion and hatred" he feels may very well be directed not at Dumbledore, but Harry. If as I suspect, he like DD, feels Harry's invisible presence (whose raw emotions must be radiating from him at this point), because he (Snape) is a highly skilled Legilimens, then that compounds his agony.

"The Cave" with all of its "passing of the torch symbolism" emphasizes that it is Harry who is the "Chosen One" in this great battle in the war between good and evil. Dumbledore confirms that he feels that he is "less valuable" than Harry whose blood is "worth more" than his. This is a belief that Snape does not willingly embrace, and it is to be expected that Snape is rather resentful in his designated role.

BTW, the blood symbolism is very pronounced throughout the book and reinforces several of our ideas. I was especially struck with the fact that DD pierces his arm, similarly to the way Voldemort pierced Harry's in Goblet, to pay the blood toll in the cave. Are there any threads where blood symbolism is being discussed?

wynnleaf--Thanks for the input regarding Snape's reaction to Harry's thoughts during their private lessons. It was most helpful. It looks as if Snape's fear of exposure can be viewed in two very different ways.


Kevin Corbett - Aug 9, 2005 9:14 pm (#2244 of 2980)
Ah, I thought someone else must have mentioned to foe-glass before---I tried searching this thread for "foe-glass" and nothing popped up, so I assumed there was no discussion of it, at least on this thread. Also, I thought I'd try to refute some of the objections to the theory---i.e., that Snape was only Crouch Jr.'s foe because he hated him.


Delightful Task! - Aug 9, 2005 11:54 pm (#2245 of 2980)
The "foe-glass" is interesting, but a bit bothering too, because I'm sure Crouch Jr noticed Snape appeared in the mirror before the end... Therefore, I suppose he told Voldemort about it...

If a foe glass really shows who your true enemies are, and not those you think you have, Voldemort must have known Snape was Crouch Jr's true enemy, therefore, his... This doesn't really make sense to me.


Ann - Aug 10, 2005 4:06 am (#2246 of 2980)
I've always thought the foe glass was good evidence for Snape's good intentions, even though I know Crouch didn't like him for other reasons. But the idea I got about the foe glass from what Crouch (as Moody) said was that it showed you people who were dangerous to you, not just people you don't like or that secretly don't like you. So his being there means something, and added up, together with his white knuckled grip on the chair when Ginny Weasley is taken in book two and his bravery in going after Remus (who he knew hadn't taken his potion) to save Harry and Ron and Hermione in book three, and (particularly) his showing his Dark Mark to Fudge in book four.

And I think that Snape's looking at his reflection in the foe glass was more of an indication of his own insecurity about his role. Dumbledore and McGonagall are renowned good guys; I think he was a bit abashed to see himself in their company.

Delightful Task!, I don't think Crouch Jr. had a chance to tell Voldemort about Snape's appearance in the foe-glass. He was stupefied, then bound, and finally his soul was sucked. And surely that was the first time Snape had been in his office. They didn't seem to get along too well.

Oh, and as to this idea that Snape won't die at the end of Book seven: I'd like to think you're right--the man has had an awful life. But I think that he'll have to, to pay for killing Dumbledore, which is a truly evil thing to do, even if Dumbledore was begging him to. Somehow, I can't see JKR letting him get away with murder, even strategic murder with the victim's acquiescence. And more than that, I can't see Snape ever forgiving himself for it unless he manages to atone for it with his own life. I hope I'm wrong, but that just feels like the right way to end it. I do think there will be some reconciliation with Harry before that, though.


Delightful Task! - Aug 10, 2005 5:10 am (#2247 of 2980)
OK Ann, I didn't mean he told LV after this passage! But Crouch had certainly seen Snape in the foe-glass before... Or perhaps not, actually, if, as you said, the mirror reveals people who are dangerous to you... DD McGonagal and Snape were not necessarily dangerous before ! Oh, and I really like your interpretation of why Snape looks at himself in the foe-glass!


Chemyst - Aug 10, 2005 5:14 am (#2248 of 2980)
Edited Aug 10, 2005 6:17 am
I tried searching this thread for "foe-glass" and nothing popped up

Darn, those nit-picky search functions! Without the hyphen, I had fifteen priors pop up. With it there were six.


Gina R Snape - Aug 10, 2005 5:44 am (#2249 of 2980)
Chemyst, I was just going to suggest the same thing regarding searches!

So, it seems nobody is interested in my Snape/Lily or other theories. Ok...fine.

Question: How does knowing Snape is a half blood change how you view him? I think JKR meant this to be a HUGE revelation. Was it so huge? How? Or how not?


septentrion - Aug 10, 2005 6:04 am (#2250 of 2980)
Gina, your theories are interesting, the fact is I share them so I don't feel the need to discuss them

Snape killing DD was a huger revelation than him being half-blood so that bit of information has been hardly discussed until now. How do I see him now ? He seems to be the guy who always has had to fight for his place in the world : being a half-blood Slytherin probably wasn't like playng a game, he must have had to prove himself "worthy" of being there, then possibly having feelings for a muggleborn Gryffindor weren't of help in his life, and then he found acceptance in the DE ranks. Well, at least acceptance from Voldemort and the Malfoys. Then, he must have realised he made a mistake but once again, where does he belong ? He had to keep a double-spy face through the years, knowing that LV would eventually come back, play his double-spy part again when LV came back, until he's perceived only as a DE again after he killed (perhaps) DD. Seems history repeats itself when it comes to Snape. And if he's on the good side, he must have a terrible identity conflict right now until Jo releases him in book 7. Conclusion : Snape being a half-blood doesn't change really my view of him, I could have written the same paragraph save for his chilhood and teenager days, if he would have been a pure-blood.
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Herm oh ninny - Aug 10, 2005 6:22 am (#2251 of 2980)
Edited Aug 10, 2005 7:22 am
I too liked and was awed by your theories. However, I din't think a hearty "mee too! was worthy of a post!


Michelle W. - Aug 10, 2005 7:53 am (#2252 of 2980)
This has probably already been discussed but I'll go ahead and share my thoughts..

I doubt the theory that Snape had feelings for Lilly. He doesn't seem the type who would fancy anyone especially a muggle born. Though I do not know if it's valid, I did locate a quote in which JK Rowling states that Snape being in love wouldn't be happening. However, I do think that they were limited friends who could work and speak together. In the HBP it constantly mentions, "his mother's genes". We learn Lilly was brilliant at potions and one of Slughorn's favorites. I'm sure there were some days which Lilly's potions out shined Severus's and that she being a pretty, humorous witch got more compliments. Yet, he shows no resentment towards her in front of Harry. Though James is brought up many times he has never once mentioned Lilly's name in hate. When Harry looked into the pensive to see Snape calling her a mudblood she reacted as if she had not been called that before by him. Otherwise, she would have expected it and not backed down. Therefore, we at least see that

1. They were able to both be masters at a subject without showing resentment 2. That until the day in which Snape called her 'mudblood' he was not in the habit of insulting her 3. She did stand up for him against the boys he hated. Though he sent her away with an insult he probably did feel like he was now somewhat in her debt. DD mentioned to Harry in his first year at Hogwarts that Snape could not stand feeling like he owed anyone anything.

As for Snape asking LV to spare Lilly. I also find this unlikely. DD said that Severus was in the deepest regret that he sent LV after them. If he had asked for Lilly to be spared and Voldemort actually attempted to follow his request then Snape's conscious could be technically cleared (or at least enough not to be devasted as DD described him) However, if he had no idea who LV was after until it was to late, he would have been unable to make any attempt to save her. This would leave him still in her debt and a great amount of blame in his lap.


HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 10, 2005 8:08 am (#2253 of 2980)
Edited Aug 10, 2005 9:09 am
On the Tonks thread, haymoni wrote:

I just thought it was a dog and I took Snape's smart-aleck remark about it being weak as a slam against Sirius.

If he recognized it as a wolf, what was he trying to say about our beloved Remus???

It is funny you should point that out, haymoni. I think Snape was trying to say that Remus was taking the easy way out at Tonks' expense. Which is quite strange considering Snape thinks love and emotions are a sign of weakness.


wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2005 8:11 am (#2254 of 2980)
Michelle W., JKR said in response to a question about whether or not Snape loves anyone, “Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.” That doesn’t rule out Snape having an unrequited love for someone. I keep thinking of Slughorn’s comment about obsessive love being dangerous and wondering if Snape loved someone obsessively – no evidence to relate Slughorn’s comment to Snape, I just do.

Gina, it’s difficult to imagine many scenarios for why LV would give Lily a choice about living or dying (remember the casual “kill the spare” in GoF). I can’t think of any reason why LV would have a reason to give her this choice unless he was giving this choice because of someone else. But on the other hand, I absolutely don’t think DD would have planned any scenario that was built around an assumption of James’ death, but pleads for Lily’s life alone. As I understand the timetable, Snape had turned away from LV prior to learning about the Potter’s being betrayed. I assume he’s the spy that tells DD that they are betrayed. So at what point might Snape ask LV not to kill Lily? I suppose he could do this even while working for DD, but I think it would be motivated by his own concern, not a request of DD’s, and I suppose he could make such a request as a sort of contingency in case all efforts to protect the Potters failed. But I don’t think this would have occurred, because I think such a request from anyone opposed to LV would have to be rooted in a greater concern for Lily than James (which Snape might have), but also an assumption that protections would likely fail and LV would be able to attack them.

I don’t think Snape’s been bound by any other unbreakable vows. It’s not just that DD likes choices. I don’t think DD would trust someone due to an unbreakable vow to anyone. That’s not the kind of motivator that he’s looking for or that would make DD consider a person so worthy of deep trust – and he clearly has a deep trust for Snape.

Like septentrion, my thoughts about Snape didn’t change because of his half-blood status. I never really saw any evidence, other than his mudblood comment to Lily, that he truly had any personal elite views about purebloods. But I gather many people assumed, because he let Slytherins get away with mudblood name calling etc, that he was in agreement. I had assumed he was from a poorer home, as well as being a major geek and a loner, so he wouldn’t have had a lot of friends anywhere, even in Slytherin. Somewhere, there’s a comment from someone calling him Lucius Malfoy’s lapdog (I think that’s the word used). And Narcissa speaks of him as close to Lucius. Yet others his age must have known that he was half-blood – his mother’s marriage was public knowledge. His chosen name for himself practically flaunts it. And we don’t know that “Half Blood Prince” was a secret name. Harry doesn’t divulge anything about the potions book to anyone besides friends his age. I tend to wonder if, as a geeky, likely poor, half-blood, he was willing to follow Lucius Malfoy – glad of Lucius’ apparent acceptance of him and a kind of friendship, even if it was as a “lapdog” status. But my guess is that he’d be especially drawn to LV, since here was a powerful dark wizard that so many were in awe of, who – unlike Lucius -- had risen out of very similar circumstances as Snape.

The book is called Half Blood Prince, and I think that therefore the personality behind the potion book Half Blood Prince as an aspect of Snape is important. I think it’s a mistake when people assume that all the stuff about the potion book notes writer that comes across differently from the Snape as we’ve know him so far, must necessarily be the personality of someone else (many assuming Lily’s influence on the notes on the book). So many posts take Slughorn’s comments of “you’re so much like your mother” as evidence that the notes in the book are reflective of Lily. I don’t buy that – Slughorn’s always looking for ways to connect with people and their important family members, and anyway if I have dark eyes and my daughter has dark eyes, everyone says, “oh she got her eyes from you” not she got her eyes from someone else. My daughter’s a gifted artist and so is my husband. People comment on that, not, “oh look, she must have gotten her talent from her teacher.”

So I think the potions book personality is all Snape’s and is crucial to understanding him. I can’t remember the chapter or exact words, but at one point (I think in Sectumsempra) it says that Harry had come to view the HBP as a guide and friend. To me, the potions book reveals the HBP personality that could have been a friend and mentor to Harry if all circumstances, old hates, bitterness, guilts, betrayals, etc. had never occurred.


HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 10, 2005 8:22 am (#2255 of 2980)
To me, the potions book reveals the HBP personality that could have been a friend and mentor to Harry if all circumstances, old hates, bitterness, guilts, betrayals, etc. had never occurred.

That is quite true but it also raises another question, would it also have lead Harry down the right path, considering how quickly he trusted this source and used the sectumsempra spell without at least trying it on a bug first?

I don't think it was only what happened to Draco that shocked him, but the fact that a 'trusted' source ended up stinging.


Michelle W. - Aug 10, 2005 8:32 am (#2256 of 2980)
“Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.”

Thanks! I had been wondering where I had read it and what exactly it said. I had found it some time ago and had long lost the link.

I always thought Slughorn mentioning 'obsessive love' was to lead up to the actions of LV's mother. However, it is an interesting theory nontheless.

I agree when it comes to Snape not being obsessed with pure bloods. Though he did get some of the Slytherian snootiness as we see from him calling Lilly a mudblood. But by him bragging about being half-blood shows that he is more about brains that bloodlines anyway. I think the significance that Snape is half blood simply leads to this. LV's parents=Witch-Muggle Snapes parents=Witch-muggle Harry's parents=muggleborn witch-wizard Which goes to show that they all sort of having something in common afterall. I think in the 7th book it will reveal that there is a great many more traits that they share.


Valfunde - Aug 10, 2005 8:49 am (#2257 of 2980)
Hey Gina- I'm with you! I'm completely on board with the theory of a substantial Snape/Lily connection/theory as well. Like Septentrion, I didn't post because I agreed with you and didn't really have anything else to add. IMHO, Snape is one of the more memorable, complex, and interesting characters in literature. As someone else posted prior, he's almost Shakespearian.

I wasn't really surprised to find out that Snape was half-blood. It seems like it fits in with his character for me. Because of this "revelation" it does explain to me why he could have been insecure as a young person who did want to fit in with that pure-blood Slytherin "club," and as someone who would've wanted to turn to the Dark Arts, especially since he might have felt that he has something to prove about it. We've been told that true pure-blood wizarding families are getting rarer as time goes on, so Snapes' lineage fits. The implications of this are interesting in his "relationship" with the Malfoys and the other DE's. I'm pretty sure that they don't know he's a "mudblood" do they? LV must know though, and if he trusts Snape, thinks it might make them "kindred spirits," but LV could also then view Snape as a greater threat like he did with Harry (the half-blood) over Neville (the pure one).


wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2005 9:11 am (#2258 of 2980)
"That is quite true but it also raises another question, would it also have lead Harry down the right path, considering how quickly he trusted this source and used the sectumsempra spell without at least trying it on a bug first? "

I don't know. I had meant to speculate at how Snape the adult could have become a friend and mentor to Harry, but for all the past -- not whether the potions notes of Snape the teenager could have been friend and mentor. Snape is who he is now in part because of the bitterness, hate, guilt, etc. So we don't know what he'd have grown into without all the circumstances surrounding LV. It does seem in the Sectumsempra chapter that Snape is very angry at Harry's use of that dark spell. And interesting to me that he had developed a song-like countercurse (sounds almost gentle) to repair the damage of his own curse.

By the way, I think he used sectumsemptra in the OoP Snape's Worst Memory chapter when he uses a curse that cuts James' face.


HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 10, 2005 9:45 am (#2259 of 2980)
Edited Aug 10, 2005 10:47 am
And interesting to me that he had developed a song-like countercurse (sounds almost gentle) to repair the damage of his own curse.

The fact that Sectumsempra was his own curse and then the nature of the countercurse - it seems to mirror his personality, doesn't it?

I edited this to better explain what I meant by the parallel.


septentrion - Aug 10, 2005 10:04 am (#2260 of 2980)
Wynnleaf : I had meant to speculate at how Snape the adult could have become a friend and mentor to Harry

If Harry hadn't been influenced by Hagrid and Ron, he would have gone to Slytherin. Snape could have been his mentor then...


T Brightwater - Aug 10, 2005 10:44 am (#2261 of 2980)
It's hard to keep up with this thread!

Ag Hart: "but killing the man who kept him out of Azkaban for a boy he despises is just too much."

That rings true, but by killing DD he also spares Draco, (or so DD hopes, anyway) and fulfills his vow to Narcissa, thereby saving himself as well. It would seem that these would outweigh any resentment at being of help to Harry.

It's interesting that pure-blood fanatics seem to be more resentful of Muggleborns than of half-bloods.

I could see LV deciding that Muggleborn Lily wasn't worth bothering about, or that she would suffer more if she lived when her husband and son had been killed. Or maybe he was lying and planned to kill her after Harry.

I was also intrigued by the "song-like" charm that Snape used to heal Draco. Given the connection between phoenixes and healing, I wonder if this is something that Snape learned from Fawkes, either directly or through DD. (Yes, I know it's phoenix tears that have healing powers, but Fawkes' song has several times been mentioned as having a beneficial effect, though more on the mind than the body.)


Eunice - Aug 10, 2005 12:15 pm (#2262 of 2980)
Edited Aug 10, 2005 1:16 pm
Septentrion wrote: "If Harry hadn't been influenced by Hagrid and Ron, he would have gone to Slytherin. Snape could have been his mentor then..."

Yeah, exactly. Though Snape is said to be severe (sorry for the pun) with his students by the Weasley twins right from the start, maybe if Harry didn't look so much like James the things could have been different.

Maybe Snape, knowing that the famous Harry Potter was coming to Hogwarts, had expected to find a boy who looked like Lily and had her formidable skill. When in the first lesson Snape realizes Harry doesn't have any of Lily's talent in potion (and moreover he's just like James), he begins to feel an irrepressible hate towards Harry.

The most gifted person in the class is a girl - Hermione - who had no connection to Lily. Maybe Snape dislikes Hermione because he thought that the next Lily (in terms of talent, etc) would be his son, and he finds this "know-it-all" girl instead.

(sorry just a bit of ramblings in the Snape-Lily 'ship)

Gina, knowing that Snape is a half-blood makes me read more clearly the "worst memory" scene, in which the core is now obviously (to me) the insult of mudblood he cries to Lily. Trying to deny a feeling for her in a most embarassing situation, he stumbles in the other opposite and calls her a mudblood, knowing too well that he's a half-blood too. That's why Lily seems surprised by Snape's insult, more than indignant at it. Moreover, except that situation, Snape never seems interested in the condition of "pure - half - mudblood" of his students. Sorry if this seems too far-fetched. (ah, Gina, thanks for letting me know of Snapesforte - I went to her deviantart page)


Kevin Corbett - Aug 10, 2005 12:27 pm (#2263 of 2980)
I really doubt that Harry would have gone to Slytherin, even without Haggrid or Ron's influence. He starts to dislike Malfoy from almost the moment he meets him in Madam Malkin's. He had, I realize, met Haggrid already at that point, but I don't think that Haggrid's single day of influence was what made him dislike Malfoy from the begginning.


Lina - Aug 10, 2005 12:51 pm (#2264 of 2980)
I've been commenting this with my daughter, but never remembered to post it here. The fact is that Harry liked the Half-Blood Prince, he considered him as a helping friend and a good teacher! Not the lost friend, like Tom Riddle, but someone who would be interesting to hang with. And then he finds out that it was Snape! Oh, my Dear! This must have been a very cold shower, almost worst then seeing DD killed.

About him being half-blood, I'm more interested in what was Lucius' reaction to the fact... I can imagine him wondering... "I don't remember any Wizarding family by the name Snape?" I just think that even Lucius was impressed by the dark magic that Snape was in and his abilities as a wizard, so he decided to forgive him this little fact. They really seam to be friends, at least Snape and Narcissa. Maybe she was the one who noticed him, maybe Lucius was just jealous and waned to have him under control?

I think that it is interesting that he didn't stick to his invented nickname. I think that DD has his fingers in it. I think that he talked to Snape much more than we can imagine. Probably more than he ever talked with McGonnagall. Maybe it was the moment when Snape came to DD after being a DE that he explained him the past of Voldemort, I mean Tom Riddle. Maybe his giving up the name of Half-Blood Prince was showing that he didn't want to become as Voldemort. Well, I'm going to keep thinking that it was Snape who warned DD about more than one horcrux.

Now, mentioning Fawkes. It says that Phoenix' song gives comfort to the good people and terror to the bad (my rephrasing and translating the translation from The Magical Beasts and Where to Find Them). Now I'm really wondering in what way would the Phoenix' song influence Snape. That would be really interesting. Because, although I think that he keeps working for DD, I don't think that he is absolutely good.


Ann - Aug 10, 2005 2:01 pm (#2265 of 2980)
I'm glad someone pointed out the song-like cure: I thought it was neat, too. And I hadn't connected it with the Phoenix song, but I think you're right. (Although Dumbledore was apparently tone deaf: remember the school song? "Ah, music; a magic beyond anything we do here." Or words to that effect.)

Gina, I agree that the whole Snape/Lily thing, which I'd always thought unlikely because of JKR's remark about how horrible it would be to have Snape in love with one, looks much more likely after HBP.

Okay, I just had a wild Snape-theory inspiration. There have been several mentions of Dumbledore's almost paternal role in Snape's life, and the whole prodigal son parallel. But in a recent interview (no citation--I've read so many recently) she said that the family history we should really be interested in is Dumbledore's. If that isn't merely a reference to Aberforth, could it be that Snape is related to him?

It might explain several things, notably the fact that Dumbledore seems to have been really unfair in not expelling Sirius for the "send Snape to Remus when he's transformed" trick. Perhaps that mistake of Dumbledore's was because he didn't want to favor a relation? And there are all those purple robes. Maybe Dumbledore was a Prince, too?


Ag Hart - Aug 10, 2005 5:06 pm (#2266 of 2980)
Edited Aug 10, 2005 6:09 pm
T Brightwater-- I was focusing on reasons for Snape's argument with Dumbledore, and the "revulsion and hatred" Snape shows when killing DD. If as some have suggested, Snape must not only continue to protect Harry, but also aid him secretly in locating the horcruxes, I think he might feel that DD was indeed asking too much of him. If he must sacrifice the man who has already "saved" him once from Azkaban and possibly the dementors WHILE Harry watches, his intense anger is understandable. I don't know how much "love" Snape feels for Draco or his mother, but there are other options (as DD suggests) for saving them from Voldemort's wrath. On the other hand, the only way for Snape to escape the death curse of the Unbreakable Vow is to do what obviously Draco cannot do--kill DD. The "revulsion and hatred" may be directed toward himself also for this reason--even if he does so at DD's insistence. I can see DD forcing Snape to make the same promise he forced from Harry: " 'If I tell you to leave me and save yourself, you will do as I tell you? '" (Scholastic, 551). In Snape's case the promise may imply much more. The way I see it, DD's death saves Draco, Snape, and Harry...and through Harry the entire Wizarding World. It wasn't just Draco to whom Dumbledore extended "mercy" that night.

I don't believe that Dumbledore planned his death, but I believe that it is consistent with his character that he would make his wishes known that if it came to his life or that of a friend or especially a student, he (DD) was expendable.

Questions: I wonder what would have happened if Snape had not been awakened that night and had slept through the assault as Draco had planned. I also wonder whether there were other reasons than the obvious one that Dumbledore insisted that Harry " 'go and wake Severus ' " ( Scholastic, 583).


wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2005 6:23 pm (#2267 of 2980)
Ag Hart, I just realized that in addition to protecting Harry (as I believe he will), Snape also has to protect Draco. After all, his promise included protecting Draco from harm. If LV wants to harm Draco because Draco wouldn't kill DD, then Snape has to continue to protect Draco or he's not fulfilling the promise. And if LV realizes Snape's trying to protect Draco from him, then Snape's in danger from LV.


constant vigilance - Aug 10, 2005 6:46 pm (#2268 of 2980)
"I could see LV deciding that Muggleborn Lily wasn't worth bothering about, or that she would suffer more if she lived when her husband and son had been killed. Or maybe he was lying and planned to kill her after Harry."

Well said. I've never believed that Voldemort would have spared her life. And to force a mother to witness her child's murder is perhaps a pain worse than crucio could inflict.

--as this isn't a Voldemort thread I will now leave.--


Ag Hart - Aug 10, 2005 6:57 pm (#2269 of 2980)
wynnleaf--Looks as if Snape's skill in Occlumency will get a real test. Strange that no one let Snape in on Draco's plan. Does V not really trust Snape? Is that why Wormtail was sent to "assist" him? Might not the Dark Lord trust him now? Snape must really have been concerned at Spinner's End that he was under suspicion as it didn't seem he knew of the plan despite his assertion to the contrary. He certainly wouldn't have needed to pump Draco so hard. I suppose Bella might have had had something to do with keeping Snape in a state of ignorance. I wonder what the background story is on those two!


T Brightwater - Aug 10, 2005 7:01 pm (#2270 of 2980)
Ag Hart, I agree that Snape is not happy about helping Harry. What I want to know is, at the moment when he killed DD, did he actually know Harry was there? Harry was under the Invisibility Cloak and DD's Impediment jinx.

It's got to gall Snape that Harry is now blaming him for two deaths, at least one of which wasn't his fault, and especially if the other was done under protest. (This is one of my days for believing that Snape was acting on DD's orders.)

So far, Jo hasn't given us a single instance of "A is really B's child" and it doesn't seem like the sort of plot twist she gets into. We also know the names of both of Snape's parents, and he doesn't look a bit like Dumbledore.


Ag Hart - Aug 10, 2005 7:19 pm (#2271 of 2980)
Edited Aug 10, 2005 8:59 pm
T Brightwater-- We can't know for sure whether Snape knew Harry was there, but as he is such a skilled Legilimens and Harry can't seem to hide his emotions from Snape or DD, it is a strong possibility. DD certainly seemed to know the invisible Harry was in Hagrid's hut in CoS. He even left the heartfelt message that help would always be given to those loyal to him if asked. In the PS/SS film, I was struck by Snape's reaching for the invisible Harry as he walked by. I know that was only in the film, but JKR supposedly gave Rickman some info about his character, possibly about what he can and cannot do. I can certainly imagine a panic-stricken Harry sending out waves of angst, rendered powerless to aid his beloved mentor. If DD still believes in Snape's loyalty, he may even have sent out a mental picture of the entire situation.

I'm a bit confused about your last comment. Has someone suggested that there is a blood link between DD and Snape?


Herm oh ninny - Aug 10, 2005 8:44 pm (#2272 of 2980)
Constant Vigilance - but Jo said that Voldie would indeed have spared Lily's life. She wouldn't say why though....


Delightful Task! - Aug 11, 2005 3:12 am (#2273 of 2980)
Concerning the relation between the "Half-Blood Prince" and Harry, some of you said that "the Prince" was like a friend and a kind of mentor to Harry...

This made me think of the relation between Tom Riddle and Ginny in CoS... What is also interesting is the fact that once more, Harry discovers how close he can be to "the dark side"... (whatever our opinion, Snape belongs to this side now according to Harry...)

But, both Ginny and Harry understand at one point that they are different from their "friend", that they are things they would NEVER do willingly.

This is why I think Harry would never have gone to Slytherin!


constant vigilance - Aug 11, 2005 6:35 am (#2274 of 2980)
"Jo said that Voldie would indeed have spared Lily's life. She wouldn't say why though...."

really? wow. I always thought it was convient that Voldemort had Lily's death to make Harry feel worse about in SS. Why would he spare an Order member who had thrice defied him? Strange.


Herm oh ninny - Aug 11, 2005 8:22 am (#2275 of 2980)
Edited Aug 11, 2005 9:23 am
ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live?

JKR: Mmhm.

ES: Why?

JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There’s your answer, you've just answered your own question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice -

ES: And James didn't.

JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.

MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry?

JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen.

MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -

JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way. --Mugglenet interview

Interesting, don't you think?


wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2005 9:26 am (#2276 of 2980)
I don't want to take away from the present discussion, but I need to correct something I said in post # 2254. I said that we didn't know that Half Blood Prince was Snape's secret name for himself (as opposed to public), because Harry didn't mention the name to anyone of Snape's age peers to find out. But that's not true. At Christmas Harry asked Lupin if he'd ever heard of the HBP and he had not. Moreover, Lupin didn't know the origin of the levicorpus (spelling?) spell that they all used, but Snape had invented.


T Vrana - Aug 11, 2005 10:51 am (#2277 of 2980)
Edited Aug 11, 2005 12:50 pm
wynnleaf-Are we sure Snape invented it? James uses levicorpus on Snape after their OWLS, a year before advanced potions. Is it possible he didn't invent it, but figured it out? Or got it from Lily? (not sure about this last thought, when did Lily and James get together?).

EDIT- Was this a clue for us early in HBP as to who the HBP was? When did Snape start using legilimency...Did he get levicorpus from James using legilimency?


T Brightwater - Aug 11, 2005 11:22 am (#2278 of 2980)
Ag Hart, I got the impression during that scene in GoF when Harry was stuck in the trick step and had dropped his Triwizard clue that Snape had deduced Harry's presence (from the golden egg, the parchment, and possibly from Moody's reactions) rather than sensed it directly - and surely Harry was sending out waves of panic at that moment!

I'm not saying he couldn't have sensed Harry's presence, but just wondering if he did. Legilimency requires intent, and Snape had a few other things on his mind at that moment. Alternatively, I could have missed something really obvious; my husband has the book at the moment and I can't check it.

Ann, I misread your post (#2265) - you were wondering if Snape was related to DD, not whether he was DD's son. Sorry about that! I don't know of anything in canon that would either support them being related or rule it out. DD is also a father figure to Harry but apparently they aren't related.


wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2005 12:13 pm (#2279 of 2980)
T Vrana, I don't have HBP handy to look at, but isn't levicorpus one of the spells Harry starts to use when he's chasing Snape? That and sectumsempra? And immediately afterward Snape is angry at Harry for using -- I think he calls them "my own inventions" -- against him.


T Vrana - Aug 11, 2005 12:25 pm (#2280 of 2980)
Edited Aug 11, 2005 1:39 pm
Wynnleaf-

You are right. Harry does, and Snape does call them his own. But doesn't the nonverbal spell James uses on Snape in Snape's Worst Memory behave just like levicorpus? I think Lupin did say jinxes came and went like fads, it just struck me that James seemed to be using levicorpus first...

EDIT- Took another look. Snape accuses Harry of using his spells against him, like his dad. Hmmm, How did James get a nonverbal levicorpus from Snape, the year before Snape wrote it in his book? It was OWLS they were taking in Snape's Worst Memory...So was this the time Snape is referring to James using his own spell on him?

And I think Snape copied the potions fixes from watching Lily (in HBP, it is mentioned that it is hard to hide what you are doing when they are competing in potions. Slughorn mentions Harry is better than Snape, and compares Harry's ability to Lily's). Sectumsempra I definately think is Snape's...


Netherlandic - Aug 11, 2005 12:51 pm (#2281 of 2980)
Sectumsempra is certainly something that Snape might have invented...


wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2005 1:00 pm (#2282 of 2980)
Edited Aug 11, 2005 2:02 pm
We don't necessarily know that all of the notes in the potions book were put there just at the time they were devised -- that is, Snape could also have written in favorite spells that he had invented during previous years.

Of course Harry looks better than Snape in his 6th year. Harry doesn't have to figure anything out for himself. He has the advantage of using Snape's notes after Snape had "worked out the bugs" so to speak - so he always gets everything right the first time.

I really don't buy into the idea that any of the notes are Lily's work, used by Snape. It's primarily Slughorn's comments that are used to support this idea -- although, T Vrana, you may certainly have some other reasons that I can't recall or you haven't mentioned. But as I said in #2254, when a parent and child have strong talents in the same area, people very often make a comparison. My daughter is a talented artist and so is my husband. Nobody has ever said, "Oh she's just as good as her [this or that, past or present] teacher." But they compare her to her dad all the time.

Further, Slughorn, has always been on the lookout for the up-and-coming or well-connected students. Since he doesn't seem to care about being pureblood, muggle, or whatever, he'd naturally notice an outgoing, popular, talented girl like Lily. But a geeky, ill-kempt, grouchy, loner from a likely poor family? I don't think Slughorn would have been too interested in Snape the student.


T Vrana - Aug 11, 2005 1:37 pm (#2283 of 2980)
Edited Aug 11, 2005 3:57 pm
Wynnleaf-

All very good points. I posted elsewhere another small "clue" that made me think Snape wasn't a potions wiz.

The first potions class Slughorn had several potions brewing and Harry thinks how new it is to have actual potions brewing. For the 5 years of Snape, it is all notes on the board, we never see him brew anything.

He does do the Wolfsbane for Lupin, so I think he is competent. It just struck me that maybe he wasn't as naturally gifted as Lily, and the point had been made in HBP that it is hard to hide what you are doing in potions. I had thought maybe it was the reverse at first, Lily getting help from Snape, but the fact that he never brews anything in class, and Slughorn's comments, made me turn that around. Not a very strong point, and you made several goods points above that are very valid.

I do think if Snape had been really great at Potions, Slughorn might have noticed. Though Ginny's family is not well connected, he chose her on the train because he thought he saw talent. Yes, he likes the well connected, but seems to also look for the diamond in the rough that will be something worth "possessing" in the future.


Sparrowhawk - Aug 11, 2005 1:56 pm (#2284 of 2980)
Edited Aug 11, 2005 2:59 pm
T Vrana,

I think that you made very valid points. It also fits with something we know for sure about Snape: he was not very interested in teaching Potions, what he really wanted was the post of DADA teacher.

Besides, I doubt that Slughorn would have ignored him, had he been his best potions student, taking into account the fact that he belonged to his own house, Slytherin...

And from Lupin's testimony, it appears that Snape was deeply immersed in the Dark Arts when he studied at Hogwarts, not that he was an outstanding potions maker.


Chemyst - Aug 11, 2005 2:02 pm (#2285 of 2980)
Edited Aug 11, 2005 3:07 pm
T Brightwater said at the GF trick step, Snape had deduced Harry's presence (from the golden egg, the parchment, and possibly from Moody's reactions) rather than sensed it directly...

On the tower there was a clue; the two broomsticks. We know the Ministry figured it out because Scrimgeour mentions it when he talks to Harry after the funeral. If the ministry could guess it right, chances are Snape did too. (page 648 Scholastic)


Ag Hart - Aug 11, 2005 3:49 pm (#2286 of 2980)
Edited Aug 11, 2005 5:12 pm
T Brightwater-- A good point-- I hadn't thought of that scene, but I don't think it was necessarily the optimal situation for "feeling" Harry. Crouch Jr. hated Snape for escaping from the fate of the other Death Eaters, and Snape feared the auror, Moody. I'm sure the atmosphere was charged that night with emotions from all. As Snape put it, Legilimency is not mind reading. It is not exact. Also, it seems that Snape needs to focus and once something presents the possibility of another's presence, he is able to do so. Once he saw the parchment, he may have been able to figure out where Harry might be. Once he saw the second broom on the tower (and knowing that Harry has an Invisibility Cloak), he may have tuned in to Harry. Besides, having tried to teach Harry Occlumency, he "knows" Harry unlike before. The main reason that I think he may have picked up on Harry's feelings, however, is because it seems a skill practiced by highly accomplished Legilimens like Dumbledore. I think we did see an example of that in CoS with DD, and I suspect that Snape has the same power to some degree. I've acknowledged that there is no way to know for sure that he picked up Harry's feelings that night, but I do have my suspicions.

Actually, I don't think whether he did or not is relevant to my main point. It simply makes for a more dramatic scene. Whether or not Snape deduced Harry's presence from the second broom or whether he felt Harry's emotions, he would have known Harry was there. If DD sent him a mental picture of the situation, he would have known Harry was there. Even if he hadn't the slightest suspicion that Harry was there, he knew that DD regarded Harry as essential in the fight and that Harry must be protected and, as many have suggested, aided in the fight against Voldemort. Whether Snape knew Harry was there or not, he hated him, and knowing what was being asked of him, sacrificing a wizard he respected, who had once saved him, for the sake of Harry, DD's designated agent in the struggle against V, it is not beyond the possibility that Snape's "revulsion and hatred" might, in fact, be directed toward the boy he hated. This is all predicated on whether or not, Snape was loyal to DD that night. Perhaps Snape did indeed betray DD, but if as I suspect, he acted, not according to some plan, yet in accordance with DD's wishes, I thought I would offer another possibility for Snape's angry argument with DD and the "revulsion and hatred" that he expressed.


constant vigilance - Aug 11, 2005 6:26 pm (#2287 of 2980)
It has never been stated, either in the books or by Jo, why Dumbledore could detect Harry and Ron under the Invisibility Cloak. It could be a heightened form of Legilimency, but it might also be some other power that Dumbledore has similar to his strange ability to be invisible without a cloak. Based on what happened in the Cave, Dumbledore is a able to detect the presence of magic. He found the invisible door, knew where to place the blood, and found the invisible chain. Maybe he knew Harry (but not Ron) was in Hagrid's hut because he could sense the presence of the cloak. He thought it must be Harry because, well, Dumbledore had returned the cloak to Harry, and who else would be invisibly hanging out with Hagrid?

Anyway...back to Legilimency. Based on Snape's description of Occlumency and Dumbledore's allusion to Legilimency, I thought Legilimency was the power to detect lies. One uses to Legilimency to see if there is a memory/thought in a person's head that contradicts what he/she is saying. This is how Dumbledore was able to figure out Kreacher's involvement in the Sirius-Harry-debacle.

The purpose of Occlumency, again based on Snape's definition, is to block out those memories that contradict the lie. This is how he is able to act as a double agent.

Basically, I see Legilimency as the ability to read thoughts/memories that are current, but not a way to detect magic or emotions. Otherwise skilled Legilimens would be a bit like Moody's magical eye, wouldn't they? And it seems that Moody's "vision" is rare.


septentrion - Aug 12, 2005 12:23 am (#2288 of 2980)
Edited Aug 12, 2005 1:24 am
I think the bit of legilimency practiced by Snape in the bathroom (ch Sectumsempra) when he wants to know how Harry has learnt the sectumsempra spell shows us that a legilimens can have an easy access to the forefront ideas one has in mind. Harry can't think of anything else than the book, he can't block this idea and Snape immediately asks him to fetch his text books. Not a specific book but all his books, so he must have seen something. The same thing can have occured on the tower while Snape was staring at DD before he cast the killing curse : DD may have been in front the mental picture of Harry immobilized against the wall under his cloak to urge Snape to act quickly. I begin to think DD wants Harry to avoid as far as possible any confrontation between Harry and DE before Harry faces directly LV.


Delightful Task! - Aug 12, 2005 12:32 am (#2289 of 2980)
Another idea came to my mind... If we imagine Snape and DD had agreed about what to do if Draco tried to kill DD, I am not sure then they had thought "kill me in front of members of the order"... If it had been the case, the OotP would have been warned! The first reason for that is that if I had been a member of the order and had seen Snape killing DD, I would definitely have tried to AK Snape in return!!! Therefore, if they had planned DD's death before _ which is not at all certain _ they had not planned Harry's presence at that moment. And I'm not sure DD would have liked to be killed by Snape, in front of Harry, without explanations...


Eunice - Aug 12, 2005 2:06 am (#2290 of 2980)
Edited Aug 12, 2005 3:06 am
Madam Pince (or others), may you explain to me your theory Severus Snape = Perseus Evans? Who is Perseus Evans?


Ag Hart - Aug 12, 2005 5:45 am (#2291 of 2980)
constant vigilance-- There are many possibilities as to why DD is aware of Harry's presence, so it's much too early to rule out any of them. DD could've detected magic in Hagrid's hut, but Hagrid, as we know, was not above using illegal magic, and I'm sure that might have made it more difficult for DD to detect the cloak specifically. I do have to point out that reading emotions does seem to be an attribute of Legilimency, and that is one reason DD insisted Harry learn Occlumency in the first place. Unfortunately, DD discovered that Harry was a poor candidate because of his intense ability to feel. We are reminded of that in "The Seer Overheard," when DD asks what has upset Harry. When Harry says that he isn't upset. Dumbledore replies, " ' Harry you were never a good Occlumens-- ' " (Scholastic, 547). We know that Harry is not good at Occlumency because his feelings are too near the surface; he is too emotional, and therefore, is easily readable (unlike Draco). Also in OotP, Snape tells Harry that " 'only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie' " (Scholastic, 531). Reading feelings, therefore, is definitely a part of Legilimency. Even when Legilmency is being used as a lie detector, it is still used to read feelings to detect the lie. Snape, therefore, could have been aware that Harry was there because he felt Harry's intense panic, he deduced it from the second broom, DD sent him a mental picture of Harry's predicament, or all of the above. I am open to all possibilities.


siliconsmiley - Aug 12, 2005 6:52 am (#2292 of 2980)
In OotP, Snape makes a point to tell Harry the importance of eye contact. I think this is an important aspect of Legilmency. It seems to me there are a couple forms of Legilimency. I don't think that it can be used as an emotional detector though as some folks have theorized. Here's my take on Legimency. I guess I got my terminology from SONAR.

Active Active refers to Legilimency as illustrated by Snape in OotP when he was training Harry in Occlumency. Using the incantation, the Legilimens can forcefully enter the targets mind and consciously search for specific memories.

Passive Passive Legilimency refers to Voldemort's ability to detect lies as people tell them and Snape's ability to detect and deflect Harry's attacks when they are dueling. It does not require the use of a wand or an incantation. It seems to be the wizarding equivalent of good poker players ability to read opponents hands.


T Brightwater - Aug 12, 2005 10:22 am (#2293 of 2980)
Then there's the plain old "sixth sense" which even Muggles can have, that lets you know someone's watching you, for example.

I was just re-reading "Spinner's End" and there's one bit in there that I find hard to come to terms with. Snape tells Bellatrix he gave information that led to the capture and death of Emmeline Vance. If he actually did that, and this isn't just another smoke screen on his part, I can't believe he acted with DD's knowledge or approval.


wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2005 10:38 am (#2294 of 2980)
Edited Aug 12, 2005 11:39 am
As regards Snape's comments about Emmeline Vance's death, I tend to think he's being deceptive. In the same sentence, he takes partial credit for Sirius' death. Yet in OoP, DD says that in the message Snape sent to the Order (the message that sent Order members to the MoM), Snape also said Sirius should stay at Grimmauld Place to alert DD. If Sirius had done that, he wouldn't have died. Therefore Snape, speaking in Spinner's End, is taking partial credit for a death that his own instructions should have insured never happened.

Since he was twisting the truth regarding credit for Sirius' death, it's just as likely he was doing the same for Vance's death.


septentrion - Aug 12, 2005 10:40 am (#2295 of 2980)
I know T Brightwater, but should we take Snape's word at face value in this chapter ? as LV doesn't tell everything to each DE, it's difficult to know if it's real. And why not imagine Emmeline Vance hidden, the same than DD proposed to Draco ?

I also wanted to post another idea : when Harry calls Snape a coward and dares him to kill him like he killed DD, Snape doesn't show any surprise that Harry knows. In my mind, he knew Harry was there. I know that fact was 99% settled but it's just another clue in that direction.


T Vrana - Aug 12, 2005 10:51 am (#2296 of 2980)
Edited Aug 12, 2005 12:04 pm
septentrion-Interesting that you brought this up. I had looked at that moment for another reason and was surprised to see that Snape had been talking about James right before Harry says "kill me like you killed him..." Are we sure Snape knows Harry is talking about DD? We know James was killed by LV because of LV's wand, but does Snape blame himself for James' death enough to misread what Harry is saying?

Most likely it is as you say, I do think Snape knew Harry was there, but it just struck me as interesting....


septentrion - Aug 12, 2005 12:03 pm (#2297 of 2980)
Edited Aug 12, 2005 1:04 pm
T Vrana, that is an interesting point of view too. And the emotions on Snape's face at that moment are really interesting : "his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was as much in pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them." Jo's choice of words too is interesting : When Harry tries to use Snape's spells against him, he "screams" : "No, Potter !" but the sentence isn't in capitals. When Harry dares him to kill him like he killed DD ? James ?, Snape screams again, but the sentence is in capitals, which is a sign for more emotional intensity. And until now, only things related to the Maraudeurs have shown us Snape losing his temper (I mean, really loosing it). That scars DD called so deep they can't heal are part of Snape : in such a dramatic moment, when he has just killed the greatest wizard and is flying to save his life, when Harry confronts him with his spells, like James Potter did in the memory in the pensieve, Snape compares Harry to his father who died 15 years ago. Snape still has to grow up on this point.

Another point of view to ponder...


T Vrana - Aug 12, 2005 12:25 pm (#2298 of 2980)
Edited Aug 12, 2005 2:01 pm
septentrion- you are right about all his loosing it moments relate to the Marauders, and usually James (the one that didn't, as I recall, was Black's escape, when Snape still thinks Sirius was responsible for James' death, so still back to James).

I think it is more than just growing up. James' saved Snape's life, so he owes James a debt, but instead contributes to his death. His reactions can't just be old schoolday stuff. There is old magic involved here, as DD told Harry, when a wizard saves another. What happens when that wizard repays the debt with betrayal and death?

Think Snape tried to stop LV from killing the Potters because of this debt, by telling DD that someone close to the Potters was passing info to LV, at the time thought to be Black. In POA, Snape looses it in the shrieking shack, same demented face, telling Harry he should have let him die, "...like his father, too arrogant to believe he might be wrong about Black..."

Sounds like he had a personal involvement in fingering Black, and a personal interest in saving the Potters. Turns out Black was innocent, but if the Potters had listened to Snape's warning, DD would have been secret keeper and the Potters would have lived.

While Snape still thinks Black is guilty he wants to take him to the dementors for a kiss. Little over the top for school pranks.

Snape, I think, feels trapped, like Fang, by this debt and murder, and blames James' arrogance (and at the time Black) for making him guilty of participating in a murder he was trying to stop. A murder that is made worse because he owed James...

EDIT- as for the coward bit, enrages Snape when related to James' death, if he couldn't save James and Lilly by telling DD, did he owe it to James to kill LV, but was afraid?

Just a thought...


Ag Hart - Aug 12, 2005 12:34 pm (#2299 of 2980)
Edited Aug 12, 2005 1:48 pm
siliconsmiley-- I don't know that I would consider Legilimency an emotion detector, but emotions play a part in "readings," although I am unsure if specific emotions can be detected. Part of Snape's instructions to Harry was to empty his mind of all emotion before going to bed...to calm himself.

It appears that you might be supporting the use of Legilimency to pick up on emotions to some extent, at least in a passive way. Perhaps for a really good Legilimens, eye contact is not as necessary, although as Snape explains, "Time and distance matter in magic" still (Scholastic,531). Dumbledore certainly seems to be able to read Harry even when Harry is deliberately avoiding eye contact with DD, looking at DD's knees, etc. This is why I suggest that when Harry was invisible, DD may have been able to pick up his vibes.

There might be some middle ground here. Perhaps eye contact is necessary to read specific images, memories, etc., whereas emotions, certainly emotional turmoil, can be detected just by being in close proxmity to an emotionally disturbed mind. Also, Harry is more emotional than others and appears more readable. Perhaps as T Brightwater suggests the 6th sense comes into play here also. (I've always viewed Legilimency as some type of magically heightened 6th sense.) Perhaps having a strong connection, an emotional bond (as with mother and child) allows for easy reading. DD and Harry are connected by love, Harry and Snape by hate.

There may be degrees of Legilimency as well. Snape used his wand in OotP. That seemed the strongest assault, eye contact would be lesser, and simple awareness of an emotionally charged atmosphere (even when due to a disturbed adolescent) would be weakest. That DD and perhaps Snape, accomplished Legilimens,are able to pick up Harry's feelings seems such a plausible and simple explanation to me that it warrants serious consideration. Remember, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one--I just don't know if there is a simpler one. We do know that Snape and DD did have eye contact that night on the tower (the gaze), and DD may have been able to alert Snape to Harry's presence.

Whether or not Snape picked up Harry's emotions or not on the tower is not my main point--only an embellishment to the theory that Snape's anger may be a result of the position that Snape finds himself in -- sacrificing DD while ensuring Harry's survival for the sake of the Wizarding world. If Snape knew that Harry was there, either because he logically deduced it, felt Harry's presence, or received a mental message from DD, that might account in part-- not in total-- for the depth of those emotions.

There is a thread devoted to Occlumency and Legilimency that might be worth looking into, although I don't think that there have been recent postings. I think that what a Legilimens can and cannot do might be something JKR would be willing to answer --unless it gives too much away, of course.


T Brightwater - Aug 12, 2005 12:39 pm (#2300 of 2980)
I'm confused. (not that it takes much...) In GoF, DD told Harry that the person who heard the prophecy in the Hog's Head was thrown from the building before he could hear all of it. But Sibyll saw Snape at the door _after she came out of her trance_. If it was Snape who informed Voldemort about the prophecy, wouldn't he have heard the whole thing?
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Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2005 12:43 pm (#2301 of 2980)
Edited Aug 12, 2005 1:43 pm
Its possible that Aberforth caught Snape in the middle of the Prophecy. Pulled him away, probably suitably chastened, and then returned at the point that Sibyll says.


T Vrana - Aug 12, 2005 12:58 pm (#2302 of 2980)
Edited Aug 12, 2005 2:04 pm
"Its possible that Aberforth caught Snape in the middle of the Prophecy. Pulled him away, probably suitably chastened, and then returned at the point that Sibyll says."

I don't think Snape needed to return. DD heard a commotion in the hall, which is what prompted him to open the door. So, partway through the prophecy, Aberforth sees Snape, confronts him (Hey, you or whatever) Snape is now distracted from listeneing and starts to explain what he's doing. DD hears the commotion and rises to open the door as Trelawney comes out of her trance. The prophecy wasn't really that long...


wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2005 5:02 pm (#2303 of 2980)
"We do know that Snape and DD did have eye contact that night on the tower (the gaze), and DD may have been able to alert Snape to Harry's presence."

Regardless of how difficult or easy it may have been for Snape to read Harry's presence, between DD and Snape there's a much greater likelihood of being able to clearly read each other's mental messages. After all, unlike all other descriptions of previously mentioned occlumency and legilimency, in this case you've got Snape and DD, two masters, both actively trying to communicate, looking directly at each other. I would think that Anything DD wanted Snape to pass along was almost certainly received by Snape. As I see it, if Snape was still loyal to DD, then they definitely were have a legilimency "moment." The only question would be what exactly DD was communicating.


Ag Hart - Aug 12, 2005 6:05 pm (#2304 of 2980)
wynnleaf-- That is of course the big question, because something certainly seems to be going on. I agree that the two masters might have special rapport, and their mental connection would not necessarily rule out the other possibility. The Legilimency issue adds to the drama of the situation but does not change the basic plot question. Whatever was going on with the gaze, it was brief. If one is willingly receptive to the message and is even "looking" for it, maybe a momentary exchange of looks is all that is needed. It may only be an image, which seems to be what Legilimency actually "reads." (Of course, if DD could invent a messaging system that uses each Order member's Patronus, he could also have perfected his own brand of Legilimency.) He only needed to have sent a mental image of what he wants Snape to do, an order necessitated by the moment--if he felt Snape was still loyal. The order could have included an image of the invisible Harry, if Harry was part of the order. In this scenario, the weakened DD called Snape's name to focus his attention on the problem at hand before DD weakened further. If Snape is not loyal, DD could be distracting Snape, turning Snape's attention to him before Snape could either deduce Harry's presence from the second broom or detect Harry through "feelings." I haven't made up my mind completely, but there seem to be too many problem areas if Snape has betrayed DD. He still doesn't seem to be totally trusted by Voldemort or Bella or Draco. I still wonder what would have happened if Snape had slept through the castle assault as Draco intended. At this point, I think that if Snape is not loyal to Dumbledore, he is probably not loyal to Voldemort either.


acid pops - Aug 12, 2005 8:37 pm (#2305 of 2980)
Yet in OoP, DD says that in the message Snape sent to the Order (the message that sent Order members to the MoM), Snape also said Sirius should stay at Grimmauld Place to alert DD. If Sirius had done that, he wouldn't have died. Therefore Snape, speaking in Spinner's End, is taking partial credit for a death that his own instructions should have insured never happened.

wynnleaf, I see what you are saying here but I have a hard time believing that what happened at the end of OotP was as simple as Snape described. I do not doubt that Snape instructed Sirius to stay where he was, as per Dumbledore's instructions.

But knowing the relationship between Sirius and Snape, and knowing the tone Snape liked to use with Sirius, and knowing the way Snape enjoyed taunting Sirius--I don't think it's that much of a stretch to imagine that Snape's message to Sirius was not as simple as "Order members go now to the DoM, and Sirius stay where you are."

Maybe that is all Snape said, but every other encounter we observed between him and Sirius involved some low blow remark about Sirius being house-bound and of no practical use to the Order. Even if Snape's message to Sirius was limited to 'just stay put,' Sirius was too fond of Harry, and too rash an individual, to have actually followed such directions, especially coming from his arch-nemesis Snape. And Snape, who knew all this about Sirius, could easily take credit for goading Sirius into action and passive-agressively sending him to a place where there was no shortage of people who would be happy to kill him.


septentrion - Aug 12, 2005 11:40 pm (#2306 of 2980)
Edited Aug 13, 2005 12:40 am
Acid Pops, Snape could take credit for his goading pushing Sirius to rash actions, but he would take credit for something he wasn't really responsible for. If the messenger had been Moody, for instance, Sirius would have rushed to the ministry whatsoever. And there was no certainty that Sirius would have died in the Ministry battle.

BTW do you think Bellatrix, and thus LV, knew Snape has alerted the Order Harry and co. could have gone to the ministry ? There's that sentence in Bellatrix's mouth in Spinner's End that leaves me wonder : "They (the kids) were joined, as you very well know, by half of the Order before long !" Sounds like she knew, isn't it ? I'd like to hear your opinion about it.


Sir Cadogan - Aug 13, 2005 12:07 am (#2307 of 2980)
Why DD trusted Snape.

One word. Love.

In HBP much is made by Slugthorn about what a natural Lily was at potions, even better than Severus. And we know how good SS was. My contention is that Snape "loved" Lily. We know that she intervened to stop James tormenting him, from the Pensieve scene. I think that SS "idolised" her from afar, and that was why his hatred of James Potter was so deep: a) because of his attitude towards SS and b) because he ended up with Lily.

If Snape went off to work for LV, overheard some of the prophecy, reported back, James and Lily were killed, how would he feel to have found out that he had helped destroy his beloved? As DD said, Death Eaters do not love. If Snape loved Lily, and showed DD so much remorse for having led to her death, then that is why DD trusted him.

It also explains SS's hatred for Harry: He looks like James (reminders of events alround) and "has his mother's eyes". What recriminations that must produce in him.


Sparrowhawk - Aug 13, 2005 12:26 am (#2308 of 2980)
Edited Aug 13, 2005 1:36 am
Sir Cadogan,

I agree with you 100%. Another point may be worth noticing. When I (and other people) suggested that Snape had tried to convince Voldemort to spare Lily, many people thought that this was highly unlikely, because of the fact that he didn't care for anybody, and because of his cruelty.

But, as any gang chief would, Voldemort knew that he needed to reward his helpers from time to time - he expressed so much in Gof - and he had good reason to reward the man who had told him about the prophecy (at that time, he wasn't aware of the fact that a most important bit was missing).

And, as a matter of fact, what would have been more cruel? To kill Lily immediately, or to spare her and, with the help of some love potion, give her to the DE responsible for the death of her husband and her child? What a good laugh, from Voldemort's point of view...

If this idea is correct, then of course Voldemort once again completely ignored the power of love. He just thought that Snape fancied Lily, and he never understood that a love potion or something like that wouldn't do, because Snape was truly in love with Lily.

And yes, it explains Snape's dilemma (combined with feelings of guilt): not only does Harry look so much like his father James, whom Snape hated and who eventually married Lily, but had he never existed Lily could have remained alive... And yet, at the same time, Harry is also Lily's son, and he has his mother's eyes (I think that at some point in book 7, Snape will say something to that effect).


Saralinda Again - Aug 13, 2005 1:32 am (#2309 of 2980)
It's possible that when Snape looks at Harry, he thinks, "Egad, and that lovely Lily died to save this insufferable twerp."

That would be reason enough for someone who is utterly self-centered to hate Harry.


Ponine - Aug 13, 2005 3:00 am (#2310 of 2980)
Edited Aug 13, 2005 4:01 am
Sparrowhawk, I agree with your post 2308 completely!!!


Dame Peverell - Aug 13, 2005 4:23 am (#2311 of 2980)
Please see the Eileen Prince thread if you haven't already.


acid pops - Aug 13, 2005 5:17 am (#2312 of 2980)
Septentrion, I am not certain that Sirius would have gone to the Ministry had the message come from someone else. I fully agree that he would have been far from thrilled about being told to stay put, regardless of the messenger, but Snape had a nasty habit of reminding Sirius how very stuck he was at 12 GP. Snape knew how much Sirius wanted to get out of there and go do something useful, and he taunted Sirius about it every time they met.

If Moody (or any other Order member that Sirius trusted) had told Sirius to stay put, Sirius would have been more likely to begrudgingly oblige, but with Snape there were tangible stabs at Sirius's ego and it was bound to eventually send him over the edge.


T Vrana - Aug 13, 2005 5:26 am (#2313 of 2980)
Edited Aug 13, 2005 6:27 am
septentrion- I agree with you. I don't think Sirius would have listened to anyone who told him to stay put, when he knew Harry, his godson, was in danger.


Madam Pince - Aug 13, 2005 10:00 am (#2314 of 2980)
Edited Aug 13, 2005 11:13 am
Eunice, my theory about Severus Snape=Perseus Evans can be found in the archived thread "Severus Snape - Posts from August 29, 2003 to November 6, 2003" Post #64. I don't know how to do a link or I would. It's far too long to re-post here, and I think it would disrupt the thread right now because I believe most people think the theory is bosh, frankly. (Ignore the end part about Mark Evans, by the way, that part most definitely is bosh! It was done before JKR's answer on her site.)

However, I still cling to that theory, although it needs some work in the light of the Eileen Prince / Tobias Snape revelations. It explains (to me, anyway) that there is a Snape/Lily connection (I agree with you on that, Gina!) but I don't think it was a "crush" connection. It explains to me Lily's response to Snape's "mudblood" comment in "Snape's Worst Memory" -- Lily already knew Snape himself was a mudblood, so that's why she made the cool comment that she did.

So Gina, in response to your most recent question, I wasn't completely totally surprised to find Snape was a half-blood. As I just said, Lily's comment in "Snape's Worst Memory" made me think that she knew something that made her think his "mudblood" comment was incongruous, and what better than to know for a fact that he was a mudblood himself? So I kind of half-way suspected it. (My Perseus Evans theory doesn't reflect that, I know, but I had come to think of it as time had gone by, I guess. I know I did think of it as a possibility, anyway...)

Edit: I'm trying to re-work my Perseus Evans theory. It is making my head hurt. I think I may have to call it total codswallop. Which really makes me mad because I really liked that little theory! Darn it....


Abracapocus - Aug 13, 2005 11:40 am (#2315 of 2980)
I posted this idea on the Eileen Prince thread, but I thought it would fit here too.

“…when they reached the entrance hall, they found Madam Pince standing beside Filch, she in a thick black veil that fell to her knees, he in an ancient black suit and tie reeking of mothballs.” HBP, page 640 – The White Tomb

When I read this I thought I had read it before, but where? MUNDUNGUS!!!

“… in a shadowy corner beside the fireplace sat a witch with a thick, black veil that fell to her toes…” OotP, page 336 – In The Hogs Head

Was Snape at the funeral?!!?

Filch was the one who provided security for people going in or out of the castle. He could have easily allowed Snape in for the funeral dressed in a thick black veil like Mundungus had used in the Hogs Head during the first DA meeting.

Could Harry have seen Filch standing next to this veiled woman and assumed it to be Madam Pince?


Madam Pince - Aug 13, 2005 12:05 pm (#2316 of 2980)
I must admit that I thought absolutely nothing of the thick black veil when I first read it. I assumed that it was simply a type of mourning dress, a form of respect very typical in Victorian times and in keeping with (what I think of as) the somewhat archaic dress worn in the Wizarding World. In real-world Victorian time, the thicker and blacker the veil, the closer related you were to the deceased; ie: the spouse would be most heavily veiled and dressed completely in black, if in fact she appeared at all.

Because we don't have canon for Pince to be Dumbledore's wife, I assumed that the veil JKR describes was see-through enough for everyone to recognize that it was indeed Madam Pince, and that she happened to be standing next to Filch not necessarily because she was married to him, but because perhaps they were the closest thing either of them had to "friends," and you usually sit with your friends at a social occasion such as a wedding or funeral.

I really don't think Snape was at Dumbledore's funeral. Without some serious Polyjuice or something, he would have been recognized. Besides, I don't think he would've endangered the position which (IMO) Dumbledore died to put him in, just for the somewhat sentimental reason of attending a funeral. I think Snape is really down deep in the DEs right now, and he wouldn't risk blowing his cover.

Good sneaky thinking, though, Abracapocus! Who knows?


Abracapocus - Aug 13, 2005 12:46 pm (#2317 of 2980)
Edited Aug 13, 2005 1:47 pm
Yeah Madam Pince, your explanation does seem more likely. It was just a thought.

Dumbledore married to Madam Pince – there’s a creepy thought! (shudders)

EDIT: Oh, that’s Madam Pince from the books not Madam Pince from the Forum! Geez

I am going to go lie down now. I am having a sudden attack of Wrackspurt.


wynnleaf - Aug 13, 2005 3:06 pm (#2318 of 2980)
When Abracapocus brought up the possibility of Snape being at the funeral, the first thing that came to my mind is something I've been wondering about lately. Where could Snape have gone directly after his escape with Draco? The first answer would appear to be somewhere where other DE's are hiding. But I don't think so for these reasons:

If Snape is still loyal to DD, he can't just take Draco directly into the DE camp. Especially when he knows Draco was really wavering about following through with LV's orders. And he knows Draco was primarily going along with LV's orders out of fear for his life and the lives of his parents.

Even if Snape is on LV's side (which I don't think), he's still bound by the unbreakable vow to try to the best of his ability to keep Draco safe. Since Draco wasn't following through on killing DD, and the surrounding DE's knew it, I would think it would be risking harm to Draco to take him into LV's control -- LV's presence or that of other DE's -- because LV might decide to punish or kill Draco.

He can't take Draco to either his own house (first place the MoM will search probably), Narcissa's house, or any other DE's place.

So where did Snape go, directly after leaving Hogwarts?


timrew - Aug 13, 2005 3:27 pm (#2319 of 2980)
Saralinda Again:- It's possible that when Snape looks at Harry, he thinks, "Egad, and that lovely Lily died to save this insufferable twerp."

LOL, Saralinda! I think you might have a point there........


T Brightwater - Aug 13, 2005 3:50 pm (#2320 of 2980)
Edited Aug 13, 2005 4:51 pm
I can't seem to stay on the same side of the Snape fence for more than a day or two, so would anyone mind if I argued the other side of the question for a bit? <does Bubble Head Charm on self in advance of Dungbombs>

What if Snape was telling the truth to Bellatrix and Narcissa? It's at least possible, yes?

Emmeline Vance was probably someone he knew only slightly, and if it improved his standing with Voldemort he might have given the DEs enough information to find her. Getting killed is something that could happen to anyone; there would be no reason for anyone in the Order to suspect Snape, since he _is_ their official spy in the DEs.

Even if he didn't goad Sirius directly when he contacted him (and given that it was a Patronus-gram, he might not have been able to say much) he had certainly been needling him for months and knew perfectly well that sooner or later he would do something dangerous. Harry blames him for Sirius's death, so he might as well enjoy some of the credit for it.

I don't think Snape is a whole-hearted Voldemort supporter the way Bellatrix is, but it's at least possible that he has, all along, had two main motivations: the continued survival and advancement of Severus Snape, and revenge on James Potter and Sirius Black.

If he really has been playing both sides, then his anger at Harry's dreams takes on a different meaning. He's not as afraid of what Voldemort could learn from Harry as of what Harry could learn from Voldemort - he might happen to catch a conversation that even Snape would have a hard time talking his way out of. And maybe he was angry about Harry seeing his Pensieve memory because he didn't want anyone who was closely connected to DD to know just how much he had hated James & Sirius. Perhaps that was the moment at which he chose to become a DE.

Claiming remorse over Voldemort's attack on the Potters is just the sort of thing DD would fall for, because he didn't really understand obsessive hate, any more than Voldemort understands love.

I'm going to take the speculation about how Snape understood Harry's "Kill me, then, like you killed him..." one step further. We know it was Voldemort's wand that killed James, because of what happened in the graveyard, but can we be sure that Voldemort was holding it? Cedric was killed by Wormtail with Voldemort's wand, after all. What better reward for Snape than to let him kill James?

At the last, then, he was facing the man who refused to expel James and Sirius; who hired Remus Lupin for the position _he_ wanted, and then wouldn't listen to anything against him; who was amused at his fury over Sirius's escape (and who probably had a hand in it, one way or another); who had been growing steadily closer to James's son/Sirius's godson, and who may have been expecting Snape to do increasingly dangerous and difficult work for the Order.

Maybe that was the first moment that Dumbledore realized his mistake. Maybe Dumbledore really was pleading, not primarily for his life, but for Snape not to do what DD had suddenly realized he was capable of doing. Maybe it was DD's fear that Harry felt when he heard him say Snape's name.

It's possible that Snape _now_ feels remorse, as he never did over James, whether he killed him directly or not - and that would account for the pain he was showing in his face when he confronted Harry. But now, who in the Order would forgive him? He has killed the one person for whose sake everyone else trusted him. Like Wormtail, he has left himself only one way to go - and, like Wormtail, I think he will have some part in Voldemort's ultimate downfall. I think he will, indeed, be redeemed - but at a terrible price.

Sorry about the long post. Dungbombs away!


T Vrana - Aug 13, 2005 5:13 pm (#2321 of 2980)
Edited Aug 13, 2005 6:16 pm
T Brightwater- I am thoroughly in the Snape is not all bad camp (only since HBP) so I admit up front to some bias. Out of dungbombs, but-

-the fact that Snape takes credit for Black's death in the same breath as Emmeline's tells me he did not have any involvement, and that he's lying to at least one side, the DE's. Snape hated Black and enjoyed feeling superior for a change and goading him (can you blame him?), but Sirius would have defied DD if he knew Harry was in trouble. So we know he's lying to the DEs.

I don' think Snape killed James. DD said owing a wizard your life is a big deal. Snape hates James, arguably for good reason, James picked on him just for existing. James saves his life (regardless of circumstances, he still did it). Then they leave school:

1) Snape becomes A DE and gives prophesy info to LV.

2)DD has someone close to LV at the same time Snape has converted, telling him the Potters are in trouble, perhaps because Black is passing info. I think that person was Snape, who despite his hate, has a debt to repay.

3)James ignores the warning and is killed, along with Lily (I do think Snape had an interest in Lily). Even though Black turns out to be innocent, if James had listened, DD would have been secret keeper, and the Potters would have survived, and Snape would be off the life debt hook.

4) Now, not only has Snape failed to repay the debt, he has compounded it by contributing to James's death, but he tried to make good, and blames James' arrogance for putting him further in debt. (Snape references James arrogance, his death and Black in POA, at the shrieking shack). He also, until GOF, still blames Black and was ready to give him to the dementors for a kiss. Because of school pranks, or for taking part in the murder of a guy he hated?

5) All his outburts relate to James, his death and being a coward.

6) Snape hates James, but has protected Harry since year one, not because he likes Harry or because he is a nice guy, but because he is caught up in this debt, and hates Harry because he looks just like James, who he hates and blames for his current predicament.

7) HBP- Harry calls him a coward, no reaction, calls him a coward while "discussing" James and says "Kill me like you killed him..." Snape becomes enraged, inhuman, just as he did in the shrieking shack, and is compared to Fang trapped in a burning building.

My conclusion, Snape feels trapped helping a boy he despises, who looks just like a man who tormented him, and he despises, but to whom he owes a life debt. And this boy has Lily's eyes, who I think he fancied.

I just can't accept that all of Snape's rage is over Hogwart's stuff. I think it is deeper and relates to the unwilling debt Snape must pay. It is made even worse by the fact that James saved him from a prank by one of his bullying cronies. How fair is that? He has this debt to repay because his tormenters were playing another (potentially deadly) prank?

Just a thought...Hope this makes sense.


Saralinda Again - Aug 13, 2005 5:33 pm (#2322 of 2980)
wynnleaf: So where did Snape go, directly after leaving Hogwarts?

Well, I think that 12GP would be a really interesting choice, on several levels. If the remnants of the Order have dispersed, as we understand they have done, then the only person likely to go there would be the new owner.

If we're talking Good!Snape here, he can plead his case before the one person he most needs to persuade of his innocence.

If we're looking at Evil!Snape, what a delicious place to lie in wait for the boy you love to hate -- and he brought a friend along! Such fun!


acid pops - Aug 13, 2005 7:09 pm (#2323 of 2980)
Brightwater, I commend you for how well you articulated your argument against Snape. I know it's not the most popular stance around here, but I just don't trust him.

As far as Snape taking credit for Sirius's death -- I still don't think he's lying or bragging when he says this. Even if we dismiss the theory that Snape taunted Sirius out of the house with his Patronus-gram, Snape could have been responsible in other ways.

Snape has established himself in Voldemort's inner circle; why couldn't he have been part of the creation of Lucius's MoM plan? Snape was less than enthusiastic about teaching Harry Occlumency, and he did not hesitate to stop the lessons when a valid reason to do so came up. It was pretty convenient for the Death Eaters that Harry was so lousy at Occlumency. If Snape had actually done his job and helped Harry block his mind, the MoM fiasco would never have occurred. I don't think Snape tried all that hard to teach Harry, and he was happy to use the Pensieve incident to quit that job.


Weeny Owl - Aug 13, 2005 7:40 pm (#2324 of 2980)
I can't seem to stay on the same side of the Snape fence for more than a day or two, so would anyone mind if I argued the other side of the question for a bit?

I wouldn't mind at all, T.

I do think Snape wants Voldemort defeated, but I've gone back and forth as to whether he's with the Order or just for himself. I don't see him killing James, though, because while Voldemort can't be relied on to tell the truth, I firmly believe his claim when he says he killed James. That doesn't mean no one else was involved, but I do think Voldemort did the actual killing.

Saralinda, as for Snape taking Draco to 12 Grimmauld Place, he might not be able to do that depending on what happens with a Fidelius Charm after the Secret Keeper dies.


Saralinda Again - Aug 13, 2005 8:07 pm (#2325 of 2980)
I know, but I can dream, can 't I? It would be really interesting.


wynnleaf - Aug 13, 2005 8:59 pm (#2326 of 2980)
Edited Aug 13, 2005 10:03 pm
“What if Snape was telling the truth to Bellatrix and Narcissa?”

If Snape actually considered himself to have helped with Sirius’ death, he’d basically have to be thinking, “I taunted Sirius about hanging out at 12GP, and that pushed him “over the edge” to risk his life by disobeying DD’s orders, and thus he died.” I don’t really buy that. These aren’t 12 year olds after all. As DD says, Sirius was an adult and knew better than to let taunts like that affect his actions. Sirius took uncalled-for risks without any pushing whatsoever (going as a dog to the train station for instance). He was quite likely to go to the MoM even if it had been DD who had directly ordered him not to go. Snape knew that. If he truly thought he had any credit for Sirius’ death, he’d be very much deluded.

“two main motivations: the continued survival and advancement of Severus Snape, and revenge on James Potter and Sirius Black”

First, I don’t think Snape has ever really demonstrated the type of personality that has the self-interested, self-importance to be focused on his own personal advancement. Sure Snape was gratified to be offered the Order of Merlin by Fudge when he’d captured Sirius, but his huge disappointment wasn’t for the loss of honors, but the loss of his own revenge. That’s what motivates Snape, in my opinion – bitterness, guilt, hate, and a desire for revenge. These guys are supposed to be in their mid-30’s, right? Snape’s not carrying all that bitterness, hate, etc. for 20 years because of some school pranks. Sorry, I just don’t buy that. That kind of long-lasting high emotion is the stuff of adult style causes. That’s why I think it’s the events of the Potter’s deaths that are the big motivators for Snape’s hatred, guilt, bitterness, and whatever other emotions might be in the mix. That’s why an explanation such as T Vrana’s makes more sense of the roots of what’s going on with Snape. Not that I’m necessarily sold on the particular scenario T Vrana wrote, but I do think Snape’s comments about James’s arrogance, etc. have almost nothing to do with school days, but with the mistakes he sees that James made that lead to he and Lily’s deaths. So where does that place the desire for revenge? Not on school fights, but on whoever was responsible for their deaths. And anger toward James for not preventing he and Lily's deaths. And anger toward Harry because Snape sees him as being just like James.

“And maybe he was angry about Harry seeing his Pensieve memory because he didn't want anyone who was closely connected to DD to know just how much he had hated James & Sirius.” Only thing is, that pensieve memory doesn’t show Harry anything really about Snape’s hatred of James and Sirius, only that they were school enemies, which he already knew. In fact, the main thing Harry learns from it is that James and Sirius were perfectly willing to attack, taunt, etc. without the slightest provocation – something Harry doesn’t ever do.

“Maybe that was the first moment that Dumbledore realized his mistake.” I’ve seen others suggest this also. A big problem with this point of view is timing. All the way up to Harry and DD returning to Hogwarts, DD is clearly still trusting Snape, saying that the one person he needs is Snape. Even with the Dark Mark over the school, he still wants Harry to go in his invisibility cloak, telling no one else, and bring Snape back -- DD doesn't want another Order member. When Snape comes up the stairs, he does absolutely nothing suspicious from the point of view of an Order member – indeed, he hasn’t had time to do anything suspicious. Yet DD immediately says – in a voice that seems to beg -- “Severus.” Snape walks directly over, makes eye contact, and DD says, “Severus, please.” So when are DD’s doubts supposed to have arisen -- between when Snape walks out onto the tower top and when DD almost immediately says, “Severus?”

And if DD didn't want Snape to do what he did, what exactly DID he want him to do? Honestly, I can't see anything else he would have wanted Snape to do. Given that DD had allowed (and he did allow) the situation to progress to the point it was at when Snape came up, what else could have happened? A fight would have been a terrible option with Harry and Draco both likely victims. Draco had seen the two brooms. DD needed something to happen quickly that would get Draco and all the rest of the DE's (especially the werewolf) out of Hogwarts ASAP. Any other options?


wynnleaf - Aug 13, 2005 9:40 pm (#2327 of 2980)
I've got to add this, too.

“What if Snape was telling the truth to Bellatrix and Narcissa?”

If Snape really taunted Sirius about staying at 12GP, with the motive of getting him to risk his life and go to MoM -- that certainly seems at odds with his definitely alerting the Order members to go to MoM in the first place. So rather than face just the DA students, the DE's faced Order members including DD.

Basically, while Snape was telling Bellatrix and Narcissa that he had a role in Sirius' death, we know for sure that he was the cause of the DE's failure at the MoM.


septentrion - Aug 14, 2005 12:29 am (#2328 of 2980)
T Brightwater : Claiming remorse over Voldemort's attack on the Potters is just the sort of thing DD would fall for, because he didn't really understand obsessive hate, any more than Voldemort understands love.

I kind of disagree : DD can't understand obsessive hate because he isn't the kind of person who harbours such feelings, but he can understand it the same way a psychiatrist understands his patients. He may have forgotten a little about it but in his encounter with Harry at the end of OoTP, he aknowledged he had been reminded of it ("some scars run so deep"). That encounter was less than a year before his death and only a few weeks before he destroyed a horcrux and was saved by his own talents and Snape's actions. Note that Snape doesn't gloat to Bellatrix about his saving of DD from the destroying of LV's horcrux.

Draco disaparated before Snape and I guess he joined LV. Draco couldn't go to 12GP, even if DD's death was the end of the Fidelius Charm (which remains to be seen), because he probably didn't think of this place. And my guess is that Snape followed Draco to keep with his vow to protect him and because even if his house is unplottable, I doubt it's protected by a Fidelius charm and can be found. I wonder who knew about Snape's house BTW.


constant vigilance - Aug 14, 2005 2:59 am (#2329 of 2980)
T Brightwater : Claiming remorse over Voldemort's attack on the Potters is just the sort of thing DD would fall for, because he didn't really understand obsessive hate, any more than Voldemort understands love.

I agree. In order for Snape to "switch-sides" he would HAVE TO mention the Prophecy, given that it was he who had over heard it and told Voldemort. Dumbledore knew it was Snape who had been the eavesdropper.

According to Trelawney, Snape was there at the Hogs Head trying to get a job. Snape over hears the prophecy, it caught by Aberforth, and seen by Trelawney and Albus, then runs it back to Voldemort. If Snape had not been caught by Aberforth and thrown out of the bar, I have an idea that he would have applied for the DADA. Since Snape was so awkwardly removed, he would have been smart to wait a little while before making another attempt to get in with Albus.

Now, going with the theory that Voldemort placed Snape in Hogwarts, I'm going to say that Voldemort, although very happy to hear of this "boy who has the power to Vanquish the Dark Lord" still wants his spy placed at Hogwarts. Snape is assigned this task. IN ORDER for Dumbledore to trust Snape,---given that Snape had just given Voldemort some extremely valuable information-- Snape would have to tell Dumbledore he regretted doing it. He would have to express remorse, for that is what Dumbledore would need to hear in order to trust Snape.

er..This is not articulated as well as it could be...


Saralinda Again - Aug 14, 2005 6:08 am (#2330 of 2980)
Edited Aug 14, 2005 7:09 am
wynnleaf: Only thing is, that Pensieve memory doesn’t show Harry anything really about Snape’s hatred of James and Sirius, only that they were school enemies, which he already knew. In fact, the main thing Harry learns from it is that James and Sirius were perfectly willing to attack, taunt, etc. without the slightest provocation – something Harry doesn’t ever do.

The Pensieve memory shows Snape weak and victimized. This is not a position he wants anybody under his authority -- least of all that Potter boy -- to see him in.

And, let me stress again: Harry shared in that "scars that run so deep" failure of the Occlumency lessons. Yes, Snape didn't keep at it as he should have, but Harry fought Snape every step of the way, resenting every moment he was with Snape -- and Harry lied consistently to both Snape and Dumbledore over whether he was (a) practicing; and (b) still having visions.


wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2005 6:18 am (#2331 of 2980)
Edited Aug 14, 2005 7:22 am
I want to add something to my comments of last night. When I was talking about the problem of timing -- when exactly would DD have had these supposed doubts about what Snape was going to do on the tower? I was saying that all the way up until Snape came out on the tower, DD had been expressing complete confidence in him. And Snape comes into the tower scene and does nothing suspicious. Remember, there's really no time for any suspicious actions before DD begans to "beg" him for something. The only thing that could have suddenly made DD doubt what Snape was about to do (remember DD wasn't doubting when he insisted he needed Snape and wanted Harry to bring Snape without telling anyone else) would be if he, DD, in only seconds of time, discovered something through legilemency to make him doubt Snape. Yet if Snape is truly disloyal, then you'd be having this highly accomplished occlumency master, who had deceived DD for many years, suddenly at the moment when you'd think he'd be doing his best occlumency skills (doesn't want DD to suspect and use his own strong magical powers against Snape), well -- at that moment instead of all previous times of Snape being able to deceive DD, DD can suddenly see the Truth and knows he should doubt Snape.

Sorry, but I just don't think that's a believable plot twist -- because it denies how really skilled Snape would have to have been at occlumency to deceive DD for years and assumes Snape suddenly lost his occlumency skills at the moment when he should have been focused on using them. Or it denies DD's obvious trust of Snape right up until moments before his death.


T Vrana - Aug 14, 2005 7:24 am (#2332 of 2980)
wynnleaf- Agreed. DD was asking for Snaoe right up until Malfoy arrived. There was no time for DD to change. He was trying to get Snape's' attention from the moment he hit the tower. He needed him to do or not do something. I agree the options seem limited. A fight would be dangerous, that leaves, get everyone out of here. Any other options?

Even if we buy that DD does suddenly suspect Snape, would he beg Snape? I think not. I think we would have seen recognition, perhaps disappointment, but DD would not beg an enemy, even a newly discovered one, for anything.


Choices - Aug 14, 2005 7:55 am (#2333 of 2980)
As to where Snape took Draco when they fled Hogwarts - I think they stayed at Hogwarts. That is probably the last place anyone would expect to find them. I think they are hiding somewhere in the castle or on the grounds - maybe even in the Shrieking Shack.


Madam Pince - Aug 14, 2005 9:11 am (#2334 of 2980)
wynnleaf, I just have to say that I think your points are very well stated. I don't have much to add, but just bravo. There was indeed no time for anything to have happened there on the tower to make Dumbledore change his mind.

I think that if the Order has a headquarters, surely the DEs must have one as well. That's where Snape and Malfoy have headed, in my opinion.


Chemyst - Aug 14, 2005 10:16 am (#2335 of 2980)
As to where Snape took Draco when they fled Hogwarts —
I think Snape would return Draco to his mom, (and possibly Bellatrix could be with her since Lucius is detained,) who is probably at the Malfoy manor in Wiltshire. We now know Draco's DOB is 5 June 1980. So Draco either just was, or will be of legal age within a few days of DD's death. Either way, Draco hasn't had time to be out on his own yet. Snape will have to report to Voldemort quickly, but tying up any loose ends on the unbreakable vow would come first, even before reporting to DE headquarters. Since Draco technically failed in his mission, I don't think Snape would take Draco straight to Voldemort. Draco probably expects that, since he believes Snape wants all the glory for himself, but Draco's wrong again.


Eunice - Aug 14, 2005 11:05 am (#2336 of 2980)
Madam Pince, thanks for answering me. I'll go to watch for your theory.


Netherlandic - Aug 14, 2005 11:40 am (#2337 of 2980)
I think Voldemort expects his DEs to report to him ASAP. So Snape must go to him first, probably taking the other DEs and Draco with him. I don't think Draco is in that much danger from Voldemort for not killing DD himself, as Voldemort will be very happy that DD is dead and furthermore, Draco did at least manage to get the DEs within the walls of Hogwarts (which is quite an achievement). Voldemort will probably want Draco somewhere safe, so he will order Snape to provide a safe place for Draco. Then Snape will be free to arrange this safe place (and one for himself).


T Brightwater - Aug 14, 2005 11:55 am (#2338 of 2980)
Wow, folks - great discussion and no Dungbombs or Unforgiveable Curses! That's why I love this Forum!

OK, I'll admit that Snape killing James with LV's wand was a little far-fetched. Maybe more than a little. :-)

And I don't think Snape was out for his own advancement in the way that Percy Weasley is. Respect and a good comfortable job, yes, and the Order of Merlin would have been nice, but mostly interested in his own survival. As Phineas Nigellus told Harry, "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." I think Jo planted that line for a reason.

I do think it's possible that Snape steered LV in the Potters' direction, and that he felt quite the opposite of remorse when they were killed.

What I see happenening is this: Snape was humiliated and nearly killed by the Marauders, but he also technically owes his life to James. If he did point LV at the Potters, there would be a great deal of satisfaction but also a small nagging guilt. To deal with that guilt, he obsessed about what James had done to him until he had himself almost convinced that James deserved to die.

He may or may not have known that Wormtail was the real Secret-Keeper and betrayer of the Potters, but that didn't make any difference. To his mind, Sirius deserved to rot in Azkaban, or have his soul sucked out, or be killed, purely for what he had done to Snape at school.

Remember Gollum: "The murder of Deagol haunted Gollum, and he had made up a defense...and he almost believed it. It was his birthday. Deagol ought to have given the ring to him. It had obviously turned up just so as to be a present. It was his birthday present, and so on, and so on."

Snape's plan was to stay in with both sides until one was the clear winner. He took out his half-guilty hatred of James out on Harry, but refrained from doing him real harm so as to keep on DD's good side, as he told Bella & Narcissa. He gave the DEs just enough real information, and covered his work with the Order well enough, that he could convince LV that he was _his_ faithful servant.

What if Snape never told DD about his vow? We don't know that he ever did. In that case, Snape killing DD would have been the farthest thing from DD's mind. Snape would _really_ have been trying to help Draco kill DD so that he wouldn't have to. When he got to the top of the tower, the first thing anyone said to him was "We've got a problem, Snape, the boy doesn't seem able..." So at that moment, Snape knows what he has to do to keep himself alive - and at that moment, DD senses that he's been wrong all along. I think part of his hatred and revulsion were for Draco, at his not being able to carry out his mission, so that Snape now has to give up his comfortable place at Hogwarts and flee for his life. He may or may not have sensed Harry's presence, but I doubt that's where his attention was at that moment.

I think he spared Harry's life because he did hear the prophecy, and thinks that indeed LV has to be the one to kill Harry. I think he stopped the DE who was crucio-ing Harry because he knew that there was only a short time before most of the Order showed up and he wanted to get away.

It's interesting that, right after he has killed his most powerful and trusting protector, all he can think about is James Potter. I think he's still haunted by that guilt and still defending himself against it as best he can, but he's going to have a lot harder time convincing himself that he was right to kill Dumbledore.


Chemyst - Aug 14, 2005 12:03 pm (#2339 of 2980)
Edited Aug 14, 2005 1:23 pm
Voldemort expects his DEs to report to him ASAP. So Snape must go to him first

I'd agree with you Netherlandic if I thought Snape was Evil. But DD had been working hard to keep Draco from becoming a killer, (and its ensuing soul-damage,) right up until his final seconds. So while Voldemort may expect his DEs to report to him ASAP, a Good Snape would stash Draco someplace safe before reporting. Getting the DEs inside Hogwarts was quite an achievement, but not of the sort Good Snape would want Draco commended for if he is trying to keep Draco from getting any deeper into Voldemort's clutches.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On another vein, it is quite possible DD was dying anyway, in which case Snape's showing up when he did was most fortuitous – in that Good Snape had the opportunity to really make DD's death count – for nothing else could ever have so ensured Snape's deep-undercover work from coming under suspicion as much as the AK would.


Madam Pince - Aug 14, 2005 12:40 pm (#2340 of 2980)
I guess I was assuming that Voldemort would be at DE Headquarters. Is that what you're thinking, too, Chemyst, or am I misunderstanding?

Good thought about "Good Snape" perhaps wanting to keep Draco as far from Voldemort as possible. I'm afraid that's a futile goal, though. Even if Draco was with Narcissa, there's every chance in the world of Voldy dropping in to say hi. It might be better for Snape and Draco to face Voldemort together, so that Snape can say something like "Whew! My Lord, that was a close one! Fortunately, Draco and I worked together well and he was able to bring the other DEs into Hogwarts to back us up so that we were successful in destroying Dumbledore!" Even if the other DEs who were present object and say "Hey, ferret-face was chickening out!" I'm sure Snape could intervene, smooth-talker that he is, and calm everyone down. He's been fooling Voldemort so far (at least, I hope he has!) so he'd be Draco's best hope for salvation.

By helping Draco to survive his inevitable first meeting with Voldemort, Snape will be continuing with his Vow to Narcissa. After all, the second part of the Vow was "And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?" No specification there as to "you only have to protect him until Dumbledore's dead." Snape might be locked into that Vow for a loooooong time....


wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2005 1:43 pm (#2341 of 2980)
"So at that moment, Snape knows what he has to do to keep himself alive - and at that moment, DD senses that he's been wrong all along."

So basically, this depends on Snape having been super successful at occlumency and deceiving DD for 16 years, but having a sudden failure just at the last moment. That's just seems too circumstantial.

On where Snape took Draco.... An evil Snape would probably take him to LV, unless he was still concerned that DV would want to punish Draco for not killing DD himself. Remember, Narcissa seemed to think LV told Draco to do the deed because he expected him to fail and would then have the opportunity to punish Draco, and Lucius through Draco. So LV might still use Draco's technical failure as an excuse to punish. Even an evil Snape can't allow that due to the unbreakable vow to protect Draco.

A good Snape would certainly not take Draco to LV, or even into the midst of lots of DE's. However, DD had most of the school year (maybe all of it) to consider that Draco is in danger from LV and to think of how he'd hide Draco if given the chance. So Snape may know about any plans that DD had for how to hide Draco.

Now my "the peculiar circumstance of the dog in the night" evidence in support of the Snape/Lily connection. I'm not an all-out supporter, but this is evidence for it.

The circumstance of the dog in the night is that in the Holmes story Silver Blaze, the dog in question always barked at all strangers. The dog didn't bark the night Silver Blaze was stolen. Therefore, whoever stole the horse was a friend of the dog. The lack of barking was the key.

Snape is not nasty to everyone. He is nasty to, or regarding, James and Sirius especially, and Lupin (and Pettigrew, too, of course). He is nasty to students who aren't Slytherins, but especially to Harry and his friends. He seems pretty defensive around Moody. But by and large, while he isn't exactly chummy with others, he's mostly respectful to other Order members. He was never nasty to Tonks until he noticed her patronus, showing her attachment to Lupin. Then he made mean and disparaging remarks to her. He taunts or is otherwise nasty to or about anyone close to James, Sirius, and Lupin. This extends to Harry and peripherally other people who are close to Harry.

This makes his complete absence of not only nasty remarks, but any remarks at all about Lily a glaring omission. The only remark to or about her that we ever see him make is the mudblood comment from the pensieve -- a remark Lily seems to find unexpected.

Why never, ever taunt Harry about his mom? Snape has no hesitation in putting down people who are by and large innocent. So why not put down Lily? This cannot be pure circumstance. JKR certainly hasn't "forgotton" to have Snape comment on Lily. JKR has to have a reason for this complete absence of Snape making taunting or nasty remarks, or indeed ANY remarks, about Lily.

The only thing I can think of that this lack of remarks about Lily could indicate would be a relationship or emotion regarding Lily that both elevates her in Snape's mind far beyond ever being able to use her in taunting, as well as some sort of pain making speaking of her unbearable.


timrew - Aug 14, 2005 1:57 pm (#2342 of 2980)
Edited Aug 14, 2005 2:58 pm
Good catch, wynnleaf. The only reference to Lily that Snape makes, occurs in "Snape's Worst Memory", when he calls her a 'mudblood'.

But here, I think it is because Snape is on the defensive, embarrassed, and doesn't really want to be patronised by a Gryffindor - especially a girl - seeing as he's dangling upside-down with his underpants showing.

Yes, I think you have a point. He has a soft spot for Lily, but for the time being (in that scene anyway) he doesn't want her to know it.


T Brightwater - Aug 14, 2005 6:35 pm (#2343 of 2980)
"So basically, this depends on Snape having been super successful at occlumency and deceiving DD for 16 years, but having a sudden failure just at the last moment. That's just seems too circumstantial."

Why does that seem too circumstantial? Dumbledore is very weak, wandless, and apparently alone. He's going to be dead in 15 seconds. Why bother, at this point, keeping up the act? I don't think Snape failed to keep his guard up, I think he didn't need to. Up until this moment, DD has been confident that Snape is on his side, he's even been assuring Draco of this. All of a sudden, after Severus actually arrives, he's pleading in a way that frightens Harry more than anything else that he's heard that night. I don't think he was expecting to die, or asking Snape to kill him. If this had been planned ahead of time, he wouldn't have been pleading, because of that very trust.

I think that the last thing he knew before he died was that he had made his last and most disastrous mistake, and had been betrayed by someone he had trusted, protected and even defended against other people's suspicions - and that he had immobilized the one person who might have been able to help him.


irish flutterby - Aug 15, 2005 2:46 am (#2344 of 2980)
Edited Aug 15, 2005 3:52 am
"Whether or not Snape picked up Harry's emotions or not on the tower is not my main point--only an embellishment to the theory that Snape's anger may be a result of the position that Snape finds himself in.."

I think, to go a step further, Snape could possibly blame Harry for the position he finds himself in. We assume that DD told Snape where he was going that night. Maybe, but maybe not. It may be that Snape thinks Harry is the reason DD is out that night, or that Harry's incompetence (as Snape sees it) is the has lead to whatever harmed DD. Whatever the case, I agree that Snape might see Harry as the reason that Snape finds himself faced with the task of killing his mentor. Yet again someone he cares about dies as a result of that arrogant, uncontollable James....er..I mean...Harry Potter.

Also, I maintain that Snape had to have known that Harry was at the tower that night. Draco picked up on it in about two seconds. why wouldn't Snape?

I also can't figure out why, if DD wasn't expecting to die, he didn't just do a little silent "Accio wand" action and fight back. He managed to petriy Harry, didn't he? did he think that he couldn't petrify Draco turn him invisible or just get him off the tower along with Harry and himself. He was weak, but obviously not weak enough to keep him from doing magic. And (IMO) difficult magic like Occlumency.


septentrion - Aug 15, 2005 4:19 am (#2345 of 2980)
I'l like to add to the pot that Snape never tormented Harry with Sirius's death. I wouldn't have been surprised if he had done it, but even when he's alone with Harry, he never taunts him with that. I think therefore that Snape's hatred is specifically towards James, and towards James's friend as a consequence.

Also, when DD begins to plead on the Astronomy tower, Snape hasn't made eye-contact with him yet. He wanted to have Snape's attention and this unusual tone did it : Snape came face to face (or up to down) with DD swiftly. Then there's a silent exchange (or I assume there is) and DD feels the need to plead a second time aloud, on the same tone, and then there's no more hesitation or waiting in Snape's attitude : he kills DD. What happened ? I guess we're good for at least two years of speculation but my guess, and I stick with it until proven otherwise, was that DD wanted Harry to be protected at all cost. Of course this could only generate hateful feelings in Snape...


constant vigilance - Aug 15, 2005 8:05 am (#2346 of 2980)
"So basically, this depends on Snape having been super successful at occlumency and deceiving DD for 16 years, but having a sudden failure just at the last moment. That's just seems too circumstantial."

Why must Legilimency be the only way to "read" a person? Body language, facial expression, and tone says a lot about a person--and these things are not always controlable. Even if Snape was practicing Occlumency at that very moment, which would have been rather difficult, Harry who can not practice Legilimens was still able to interpret Snape's behavior. Why couldn't Dumbledore do the same?

I agree with T Brightwater's response. Dumbledore was in too weak a state to put up much resistance, therefore Snape did not have to worry about Dumbledore reading or not reading his thoughts at that moment.

Also, Snape has not neccesarily saved Draco. It was Dumbledore's mercy that mattered on that Tower. Dumbledore had the power and means to protect Draco and his mother, if Draco wanted that. Unfortunately, Draco did not have enough time before the DE's and Greyback joined him, but he seemed to have been considering the option---given that he gradually lowered his wand on Dumbledore.

As it happened, Snape arrived, did not allow Amycus to finish his sentence, listened to Dumbledore plea, and killed him. Snape could have killed the Death Eater-wittnesses on the Tower, if he wanted to protect Draco, killed Dumbledore (because of the Vow), and lied to Voldemort about who did it. He also could have killed the wittnesses, force Draco into the Wizard-protection program, and act as a Noble Gryfinnedor by sacrificing himself to save Draco. I mean, if Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, than he would know all to well about Dumbledore's highly effective Protection Program. Wouldn't Snape then encourage Draco to make this decision?

These are all options, he simply did not choose any of them....and it is our choices not our abilities that define us.


Ag Hart - Aug 15, 2005 8:14 am (#2347 of 2980)
Edited Aug 15, 2005 9:19 am
septentrion--I agree that Dumbledore wanted Harry protected first and foremost, not just because of his love for Harry, but because Harry's survival is necessary for the continuation of a Wizarding World free from the terror of Voldemort. DD's plan, which he had temporarily lost sight of in OotP, is now firmly back on track.

No, DD would never plead for his own life. That would make him the WW's biggest hypocrite, especially in light of his recent efforts to make Harry understand the importance of facing death "with your head held high" (Scholastic, 596), something that Harry instinctually knew when he decided to die on his feet, like his father, during his duel with LV back in Goblet. Bravery is the mark of the Griffindor, and no true Griffindor would plead for his own life. DD might plead for the lives of Harry and/or Draco, or the other children in his care, especially with the likes of Fenrir running around. Previous to HBP, the only time that DD showed any fear was at the Ministry when LV temporarily possessed Harry. The only time we heard him plead was while he was under the influence of the poisonous potion in the cave. DD's plea " 'to hurt me instead'" (572) suggests under what circumstances he might plead for mercy. (Although I realize DD's mental horrors may not have been a foreshadowing or flashback of events in his own life, but a channeling of the horrors previously undergone by the inferi.)

Questions/ thoughts regarding Snape--Harry doesn't get into any real trouble over almost killing Draco. Why didn't Snape push for expulsion in this case? It appears he may not have even told DD about the event. Is it merely the fear of exposure that prevents Snape, an attempt to protect Draco, or something else? Is there something more to Harry's detention? Is Snape rubbing Harry's nose into his father's and the other Marauders shortcomings, or are there clues contained in those files? If Snape knows the plan, why is he asleep? If it is so important that DD die, why doesn't one of the Death Eaters or LV himself clue him in that the operation is underway. What would have happened had Snape slept through the action as Draco intended?


wynnleaf - Aug 15, 2005 9:07 am (#2348 of 2980)
Edited Aug 15, 2005 10:10 am
“Body language, facial expression, and tone says a lot about a person--and these things are not always controllable.”

Yes, but since DD would be expecting Snape to be pretending to be a DE, he wouldn’t go by outward expression, etc., which also could explain Harry’s “read” on Snape’s expression - Harry's going on outward appearance and of course his own bias. (Although I actually think Snape’s expression meant the same as Harry’s same emotional description earlier that evening. I honestly can’t understand why anyone would accept Harry’s emotions as perfectly understandable, but consider the same emotions on Snape's face as practically incontrovertible evidence of his guilt.)

“Dumbledore was in too weak a state to put up much resistance, therefore Snape did not have to worry about Dumbledore reading or not reading his thoughts at that moment.”

“Dumbledore had the power and means to protect Draco and his mother, if Draco wanted that.”

I don’t think both can be true at once. If DD had the power to help Draco – even with DE’s making their way to the tower (and DD certainly implies that he does indeed have that power), then he was still a formidable power for Snape.

“Unfortunately, Draco did not have enough time before the DE's and Greyback joined him,” Time for what? For DD to actually help Draco, there would need to be a lot more activity than simply Draco saying “yes, I want help.” DD knew there’d be actions needed and if he was offering help, he knew he had the ability to take those actions.

“Snape could have killed the Death Eater-wittnesses on the Tower” I’m not so sure where we have any evidence that Snape has the ability to take on this many DE’s at once and win.

“He also could have killed the wittnesses, force Draco into the Wizard-protection program,” Remember – it’s our choices right? If following DD’s desires, Snape would not have forced Draco to choose DD’s option.

“He also could have killed the wittnesses, force Draco into the Wizard-protection program, and act as a Noble Gryfinnedor by sacrificing himself to save Draco.” How can he not kill DD and get Draco into hiding at the same time? After all, Snape would be dead if he doesn’t kill DD. This scenario is basically saying that to do the right thing Snape has to glance around – take in the situation and kill all the DE’s around, not worrying about the ensuing fire fight and if it might hurt Draco, Harry, or DD – who you’re considering in this scenario as too weak to do anything. And of course, this also risks Snape being killed or incapacitated in the fight, with DD too weak to act, leaving the DE’s free to continue as they wished (having no one to order them out as Snape did later). No, I don’t think DD wanted Snape to do that. It’s far too risky an option. Of course, I also don’t think DD was too weak to do anything.

On the unbreakable vow, btw, it occurred to me that in the unbreakable vow we see Snape do something no other DE has done – ever. He puts his life on the line for another person (Draco), without any orders from LV to do so, and (if he’s a DE) without any particular advantages for doing it. If Snape is truly a DE, I just can’t see what would motivate him to agree to an unbreakable vow to protect Draco. We know that he hesitated over the last part of the vow (for good or bad reasons) and evidently didn’t see it coming, but he had absolutely no hesitation in putting his life on the line in the first two parts of the vow – totally voluntarily – for Draco. Agreeing to risk his life to protect Draco wouldn’t make him more trustworthy to LV. And if he’s really a DE, what difference does the trust of Bellatrix make? If he’s a DE, risking his life voluntarily in the vow (the first two parts of it) makes no sense.


Madam Pince - Aug 15, 2005 9:35 am (#2349 of 2980)
I am still wondering about that last part of the Unbreakable Vow. Snape hesitated and twitched before agreeing to it. My immediate impression was that he didn't really expect Narcissa to ask him to do that, and he hesitated that split second because he wasn't sure if he wanted to agree to it. Upon more re-reading, I think I am broadening that scope to include that he didn't really know exactly what he was being asked to do, but at that point he couldn't very well back down because he'd already pretended that he did.

That whole discussion with Bellatrix and Narcissa seemed very vague to me (Snape's end of it, anyway), and I think he was hoping to draw them out into telling him what Voldemort had asked Draco to do. They gave him enough implications that he was able to say "If you are imagining I can persuade the Dark Lord to change his mind, I am afraid there is no hope..." although that was even running a bit of a gamble. Later when he's talking to Draco at Christmas it seems that he still doesn't know the exact nature of the task. I think he knows it involves danger to either Harry or Dumbledore, but I don't think he knows exactly which.


septentrion - Aug 15, 2005 9:49 am (#2350 of 2980)
Something Hermione said about DD's blackened hand in Snape Victorious has made me think : "some injuries you can't cure...old curses...and there are poisons without antidotes". In an interview, Jo told that important and reliable informations in the book came from DD's and Hermione's mouth. DD's hand has the look of a hand hurt by a curse, and the potion in the cave sounds like a "poison without antidote", don't you think so ?
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wynnleaf - Aug 15, 2005 10:00 am (#2351 of 2980)
I agree Madam Pince. As I read over the entire conversation, it always looks to me like Snape (whether good or bad Snape), is trying to draw out from Bellatrix or Narcissa what Draco's been ordered to do. It really doesn't look like he knows. Later, in the Christmas conversation, it still looks like Snape doesn't know for certain. Although since DD seems to have known by then that Draco was trying to kill him (DD), then I'd think he would have told Snape that. However, Snape clearly doesn't know the "ways and means" of it, even at the Christmas party.


Weeny Owl - Aug 15, 2005 11:29 am (#2352 of 2980)
Snape could have killed the Death Eater-wittnesses on the Tower, if he wanted to protect Draco, killed Dumbledore (because of the Vow), and lied to Voldemort about who did it.

How could Snape have killed four Death Eaters without any harm coming to him, Draco, Harry, or even Dumbledore? If Snape were trying to take down four of his own students, then sure, he would have a problem, but even with the element of surprise, he would be taking too great a risk. That's assuming that Draco just stood there, but Draco is too scared of Voldemort's retribution, and if he saw Snape killing Death Eaters, he might help take Snape down. Not kill Snape, since he doesn't seem to have that killer instinct, but to Stupefy Snape, use a Petrificus Totalus, use an Impediment Curse? Draco is desperate and knows that he and his family will be killed if Dumbledore doesn't die, so I can't see him standing around letting Snape kill off four Death Eaters.

And if he’s really a DE, what difference does the trust of Bellatrix make? If he’s a DE, risking his life voluntarily in the vow (the first two parts of it) makes no sense.

That's an excellent point, wynnleaf. Snape knows that she and other Death Eaters are suspicious of him and his actions, or lack thereof. He also knows that her opinions aren't too popular with Voldemort since the Department of Mysteries fiasco.

Snape may have been wanting to draw out Bella and Narcissa so he could find out more about what was going on, but at the same time, if news of this Unbreakable Vow got back to Voldemort, it would seem as if all three of them were plotting against their Dark Lord. He managed to include Bella in making the Unbreakable Vow, so if he ends up in trouble for it, so does she. If the vow could have been made without her help, I'm not so sure he would have made it, but as it stands, Bella is just as guilty as Snape, and that would give him a bit of an edge over her.


T Brightwater - Aug 15, 2005 7:28 pm (#2353 of 2980)
That's an interesting idea, that maybe Snape didn't really know what the plan was. If so, he had me fooled as well as Bella and Narcissa. At what point do you think he found out, and how? It didn't sound like Draco was being at all forthcoming. Is it possible that DD figured it out first, and then told Snape? Incredible dramatic irony, if so, especially if Snape _didn't_ tell DD about the Vow.

Going back to an earlier point, it's possible that whatever protection DD had lined up for Draco depended on himself being alive and Snape being loyal; in that case, he was pleading for Draco, not just for his own life, which makes more sense. DD was expecting Draco to try to kill him and was reasonably confident that he wouldn't be able to; he wasn't expecting Draco to bring DEs into Hogwarts but he might have been able to deal with that. I don't think he was expecting Snape to kill him.


Weeny Owl - Aug 15, 2005 7:53 pm (#2354 of 2980)
I think Snape knew part of the plan, but I'm not sure he knew all of it. There was the killing Dumbledore part and the Vanishing Cabinet part. Which did Snape know or not know about?

Dumbledore knew about the vow because Harry told him. He might not have known all of it, Snape might not have told him the truth, or he might not have thought that all parts of it could happen.

He seemed to know Draco was supposed to kill him, so Snape would almost have had to have mentioned that part, but he seemed surprised at the Death Eaters being in the castle. Was Snape not aware of that or did he not tell Dumbledore?


Maia Aine - Aug 15, 2005 8:14 pm (#2355 of 2980)
In Spinner's End, is Snape trying to draw out Bellatrix and Narcissa or does he already know what Draco has been asked to do? Narcissa tells Snape that he could do "it" instead and that LV would "reward you beyond all of us" (implying whatever "it" is, it's major) to which Snape replies "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfiling my useful role as spy." Why add the last bit about Hogwarts if he didn't know? Or is it an educated guess?

Sorry if this has been discussed already as I'm new to the forum though have tried to read all postings since Book 6 came out. This little paragraph in Spinner's End really struck me on my second read through.


Chemyst - Aug 15, 2005 8:30 pm (#2356 of 2980)
Edited Aug 15, 2005 9:33 pm
When I first read HBP (before forum "contamination") I thought Snape discovered the basic "Draco is to kill DD" plot the night Cissy & Bella visited. At Slughorn's Christmas soirée, Snape was searching for details about Draco's plan, but was not doing too well.

Now that I've read the threads, I'm wondering – not if Snape told DD, but if DD withheld critical information from Snape. Harry had tried to warn DD that Draco was trying to fix something, but his tip was politely discounted. Harry surely didn't confide sensitive information to Snape, but did DD pass along any of Harry's clues?


wynnleaf - Aug 16, 2005 12:50 am (#2357 of 2980)
I’ve just gone over Spinner’s End again, but this time with a fine-toothed comb. Following are some observations that I made based on various questions that have been raised on several threads.

1.The house is Snape’s house, not a house he just happens to be in temporarily.

2.Although there to assist Snape, Wormtail doesn’t get any real “assignments” from Snape other than cleaning house, serving drinks, etc. Wormtail complains about it. “I had no idea, Wormtail, that you were craving more dangerous assignments, “said Snape silkily. “This can be easily arranged. I shall talk to the Dark Lord – “

3.Bellatrix doesn’t know the way. “He lives here? In this Muggle dunghill? We must be the first of our kind ever to set foot….” Well obviously not, since Narcissa knows the way, but it’s evidently not been a DE hideout.

4.Snape on the MoM confrontation from oop: He taunts, “And – forgive me – you speak of dangers…you were facing six teenagers, were you not?” “They were joined, as you very well know, by half of the Order before long!” snarled Bellatrix. That’s the end of the MoM subject. Bella is obviously saying that the Order coming to the MoM was the big cause of their failure. Later, Snape says, “I cannot pretend that the Dark Lord is not angry with Lucius. Lucius was supposed to be in charge. He got himself captured, along with how many others, and failed to retrieve the prophecy into the bargain. Yes, the Dark Lord is angry, Narcissa, very angry indeed.” Yet whose fault is it really? Snape’s. Now if Snape was somehow forced by circumstance to contact the Order and send them to the MoM, then he could still have been serving LV. But if he did it without being under any pressure to do so, then he was working completely against LV’s wishes. Late in oop, ch 37, DD says that Harry first alerted Snape with his cryptic remark about Sirius being captured and being at the MoM. So Snape sent a message and contacted Sirius. Now this message one might argue was forced upon Snape, since Harry made it clear to Snape that he thought Sirius was in trouble. But Sirius was at 12GP. It was only later – Snape told DD it was after Harry, Hermione, and Umbridge had still not come back from the forest – that Snape became more concerned and contacted the Order (at least 4 members of the Order were at 12GP to receive his message), and sent them to the MoM, asked Sirius to stay and to alert DD. There is absolutely nothing mentioned in the book that gives a hint of any additional situations, actions, or developments that would force a bad Snape to send this second message. Once he knew Sirius was safe, he could simply have focused on Harry, Umbridge and their visit to the forest. It would only be Snape’s suspicions and concerns that would lead him to send the Order to the MoM, even though Sirius wasn’t in peril. Whichever side he was on, Snape knew LV was after the prophecy, therefore sending the Order to the MoM would be very bad for LV. At Spinner’s End, Snape taunts Bellatrix with the DE’s failure, knowing full well that he caused it completely voluntarily.

4.The Vow. Narcissa first begs for help. She asks for protection primarily for Draco. Finally, Snape offers to help Draco. “Severus – oh, Severus – you would help him? Would you look out for him, see that he comes to no harm?” Narcissa interprets “help” primarily as protecting Draco. “If you are there to protect him…” She then asks for the Vow. Snape’s expression is “blank, unreadable.” Bellatrix taunts. But her taunting can’t hurt Snape. It’s not forcing him to do anything. Then he agrees to the unbreakable vow. Completely voluntarily. The first 2 parts of the Vow are just what they’d been discussing – protecting Draco. Snape can fulfill this while doing the work of the Order. He’d probably do it anyway if he’s on DD’s side. He agrees to these without hesitation. Then Narcissa adds a promise that she hadn’t mentioned before – carrying out the deed if “it seems Draco will fail.” This is when Snape’s hand twitches. But from any perspective, I would think, he’s commited now beyond turning back, so he has to finish the vow.


Weeny Owl - Aug 16, 2005 1:33 am (#2358 of 2980)
When reading what happened with Dumbledore in the cave while drinking the potion, I had a thought.

Before they left, Dumbledore said again that he trusted Snape. When they came back, the very first thing he wanted Harry to do was to get Snape for him.

The potion could be a lot of things, but what if it's some sort of dementorish potion that makes the drinker relive his worst memories, and what if Dumbledore's worst memories are of Pensieve scenes that Snape showed him? What if all of the things Dumbledore was saying were things he heard Snape saying while viewing memories of things Snape had said, done, and/or witnessed?

JKR said Snape could see Thestrals, so obviously he's seen someone die. Being a Death Eater would mean Snape almost had to have witnessed some truly horrible things. Being a Death Eater could mean that Snape had actually done truly horrible things.

I'm not really saying this quite right because a Pensieve can't let the viewer know what is in someone's mind... what they're thinking, feeling, silently screaming to themselves. Maybe Dumbledore used Legilimency to interrogate Snape when he came over to Dumbledore's side. Maybe Snape agreed to take Verituserum (JKR said Verituserum worked if the person was willing).

But maybe the potion in the cave made Dumbledore relive Snape's thoughts as he saw or did things, and that's why Dumbledore needed to see Snape... something clicked that could help defeat Voldemort?

All of what I just typed is a jumbled mess, but while reading what Dumbledore was saying in the cave, and knowing that he had expressed once again that he trusts Snape and Snape being the one he wanted and needed to see the most, perhaps those things were relating to Snape.


irish flutterby - Aug 16, 2005 4:20 am (#2359 of 2980)
"What would have happened had Snape slept through the action as Draco intended?"

I had a thought. Perhaps Snape was alseep because if he slept through the whole thing, he would not have been obligated to fulfill his vow. Narcissa said eveything in his power to help, but if he hadn't been awake and warned of what was happening, he obviously didn't know exactly whatwas going to happen that night, perhaps he would have been "excused" from haing to try to help finish the task that Draco began.

I like the idea of the potion in the cave having a Dementor-ish effect. JKR was asked in an interview (can't remember which one) what DD's worste fear was, and she said that the scene in the cave should've given us a clue. Don't "Dementoids" bring out fear and feed on it. Perhaps DD was weakened from having to control his fears and surpress them in order to temporarily overcome the potion. Or something like that.


Delightful Task! - Aug 16, 2005 5:36 am (#2360 of 2980)
So many good posts! And many so convincing, that I still don't know if I should trust Snape or not!

Anyway, something came to my mind that I want to share with you... Let's assume that what Snape wants most of all is to see LV dead. (I might change my mind tomorrow so please forgive me in advance!!).

Something happened that made Snape hate LV and want to have him killed or kill him himself. But, the only person who knows (knew) why is DD. That's why DD trusts Snape so completely. But Snape made him promise he would never tell his secret to anyone. I don't see DD deceiving Snape on that point.

On the other hand, I can imagine that DD warned Snape that it would be better if at least some members of the order of the Phoenix knew (Lupin? Mc Gonagall?) because it would protect Snape. From what I imagine of Snape, he was too proud to accept. But, DD was certain that whatever happened, Snape's aim would always remain the same: getting rid of LV, whatever the means. With the order, or not.

If we assume that this is true, then it could explain why Snape really seems to hate Harry. He certainly expected the boy to help him. And Harry is not a "super hero", he's just Harry. And Snape sincerely believes that he will be unable to do what is expected from him. (We must not forget that Snape knew at least the first part of the prophecy, when Harry himself was not aware of it!)

This could also explain why DD wants Harry to respect Snape. It's as if he was saying: "If you trust me, trust him. I can't tell you why, but (please?) believe me.

This could also explain why Snape kills DD. He's after LV, and if he needs to kill DD for that, he will do it, without any remorse.

Now, does it explain DD's "please"? In part, yes. When Snape arrives, DD sees that he doesn't know Harry is there. That's what DD needs to tell Snape, whatever happens after. They only need legilimens. DD's thought is: "Snape has to know that Harry is here, and that he will see what happens." Snape chooses to kill DD whatever the consequences, because he thinks that when he has killed LV, then everyone will understand.

This idea also seems to be coherent with the argument Hagrid overheard ( Chap 19,Elf Tails).(I jus' heard Snape sayin'DD took too much fer granted an' maybe he _ Snape_ didn' wan' ter do it any more_")

And I think the title "Half Blood Prince" could be another clue. In book six, we still don't really know anything about Snape. We only discover his "half blood prince" part. The "evil" part.

Now, in book 7, Harry will certainly come to discover Snape's secret. Harry will have more to face than just a few horcruxes and LV!! I think he could have to choose to trust Snape (or not) at a crucial moment!

Anyway, this is coherent with a "redemptive pattern". Just like in a tragedy, Snape has to accept to be rejected, even hated by everyone, and to be completely alone, in order to accomplish what he thinks is his destiny.

What I like about my idea is that Snape doesn't need to be "good". He's just Snape... Arrogant, certain that he is better than everyone and the only one able to save the world, and most of all, certain that nobody loves him or understands him, but they will see in the end!!!

Now, I'm sure many of you can prove me that I am wrong!! (Feel free to throw dungbombs, I've bought a Shield Hat at Weasley's Wizard Wheezes!)


greta - Aug 16, 2005 7:00 am (#2361 of 2980)
Delightful Task, I, like you, am very undecided on Snape. I certainly agree with you when you say Snape is not good just Snape!

It was discussed earlier if Snape knows about the Horcrux's - the opinion seemed to be that he must because he treated DD injured hand. I don't think that this is the case. DD states that the ring had a terrible curse upon it and Snape helped to stem the curse. I assume the curse was protecting the ring in the same way the potion protected the locket. Therefore the curse and the potion could be protecting anything, not necessarily a Horcrux. The Diary Horcrux had no such protection because LV wanted it to be used and Harry was able to destroy the diary(Horcrux) without sustaining any injury. So I think if Snape helped DD recover it was important that he knew he had come across a "terrible Curse" not what the curse was guarding. I don't think DD would have told Snape, not becuase he did't trust Snape but he would have wanted as few people as possible to know about the Horcrux's - in the same way the Order guarded the Prophecy without knowing its contents, Snape could help DD without knowing exactly what he had been up to.


Mikey - Aug 16, 2005 7:08 am (#2362 of 2980)
One thought about Severus, since I just finished rereading GoF. The foe-glass that young Barty Crouch has in his office definitely shows Snape right along with Dumbledore and McGonagall. I'm assuming that you can't fool a magical glass designed to show you your enemies, but what the hey, who knows? I found it to be a huge, well placed clue when I read it though.


KevinK - Aug 16, 2005 7:18 am (#2363 of 2980)
Or, a big giveaway if he wasn't in the glass.


Ag Hart - Aug 16, 2005 7:44 am (#2364 of 2980)
Perhaps we should consider JKR's propensity for using names as clues (a rather old literary device). These place and character names provide additional hints as to the personality of a character or the significance of a place or event. They are not necessarily part of the consciousness of the characters, but rather hints for the reader. I know that the significance of the title of Chapter 2, "Spinner's End" has been discussed previously, but in light of the current discussion perhaps it may be time to reconsider the name significance. What clues might "Spinner's End" provide regarding the actions of Snape or others? Could it help us clarify in which direction Snape is leaning?


T Vrana - Aug 16, 2005 7:58 am (#2365 of 2980)
Edited Aug 16, 2005 9:15 am
mikey-

Unfortuantely the foe glass would show those who Barty Jr. considers a foe, I think. So Barty would have considered Snape a traitor to LV, with his cushy job at Hogwarts and a foe. This was before Snape "returned" to LV.

Maybe not though, maybe it reveals true enemies...


Saralinda Again - Aug 16, 2005 8:09 am (#2366 of 2980)
Edited Aug 16, 2005 9:10 am
T Vrana: Unfortunately the foe glass would show those who Barty Jr. considers a foe, I think. So Barty would have considered Snape a traitor to LV, with his cushy job at Hogwarts and a foe. This was before Snape "returned" to LV.

So if the person who uses the foe-glass doesn't understand that a person who appears to be a friend is actually a foe (or vice versa), the foe-glass will not disabuse him or her of that notion?

Then what would be the point of the foe-glass?

It's valuable (and the RoR considers it valuable!) only if it has the power to step beyond the user's prejudices and open his or her eyes to who is truly an enemy. It can certainly look beyond the Polyjuice to see Barty Jr. rather than Moody. If the foe-glass is worth the powder to blow it up, then it correctly [at least within that time-frame] lumped Snape among the foes of Voldemort.

I don't think we can interpret it any other way.


T Vrana - Aug 16, 2005 8:19 am (#2367 of 2980)
saralinda again

I think you may be right. I edited my post right after putting it up. After reading through it, I realized that thought might not hold water.

(Note to self...think, then post...think, THEN post)


Saralinda Again - Aug 16, 2005 9:24 am (#2368 of 2980)
T Vrana: (Note to self...think, then post...think, THEN post)

Oh, pooh. If you start thinking first, all the rest of us will have to start thinking first, too.


siliconsmiley - Aug 16, 2005 9:43 am (#2369 of 2980)
Ag Hart - I think many of us here get a little carried away niggling over the details of JKR's wonderfully imaginative world and miss some of the literary devices through the works. I know I do. Smile

I think you're absolutely right, the actual mechanism by which Snape comes to the realization is not really all that important.


T Brightwater - Aug 16, 2005 9:55 am (#2370 of 2980)
Weeny Owl, I like your idea that the potion in the cave has a Dementor-like effect, but I think that if DD was reliving something painful, it was from his own past, not someone else's. No matter how empathic a person is, another person's memories are not going to be as affective as one's own.

I think DD wanted to get to Snape because Snape could help him recover from the potion he drank, or so he thought.

irish flutterby, the fact that Snape was asleep suggests to me that neither DD nor Draco had told him anything was planned for tonight. Which makes me wonder why DD didn't, if he still trusted Snape. "I've got something to do tonight which might be dangerous, so be alert; I'll probably need you." Or is DD just so used to keeping his own counsel that it didn't occur to him? He told Harry he'd arranged for extra security at Hogwarts while he was absent; why didn't he have Snape on the lookout as well?

One of the things that has me thinking that Snape is really not on the right side is this exchange during the Emerson/Melissa interview:

ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die?

JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory?

MA & ES: Yes. It’ll be a big theory.

JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little laughter.] I have to give people hope.

MA: It goes back to the question of whether Snape is a double-double-double-triple-

JKR: [Laughs] Double-double-quadruple-to-the-power-of - yeah.

MA: …whether this had been planned, and since Dumbledore had this knowledge of Draco the whole year, had they had a discussion that said, "Should this happen, you have to act as if it is entirely your intention to just walk forward and kill me, because if you don't, Draco will die, the Unbreakable Vow, you'll die," and so on —

JKR: No, I see that, and yeah, I follow your line there. I can't — I mean, obviously, there are lines of speculation I don't want to shut down...."

It sounds to me like the idea that DD planned all this was _not_ what JKR herself had in mind, though she understands how someone might get there. She wasn't going to squash it because she enjoys reading the theories so much. Does anyone else read this differently?


constant vigilance - Aug 16, 2005 9:58 am (#2371 of 2980)
Edited Aug 16, 2005 11:01 am
I still do not understand Why Snape cursed Flitwick? Snape did not have to remove a very useful dueler from the Order defence.

Wynnleaf, you asked "Time for Draco to do What?" Time for him to decide if he wanted to go into Dumbledore's Witness Protection Program before the Death Eaters arrived on top. Don't forget, Dumbledore was aware that his Order members were down below fighting the Death Eaters. Neither Draco nor Dumbledore knew who supporters would have made it to the Tower first.

There were only 3 Death Eaters on the roof aside from Draco, who was not acting too hex-frisky at the time. Snape could have, accio'd Dumbledore's wand back. Snape could have removed the barrier on the stairs that prevented other Order members from getting on the Tower. To me, Snape seemed to have rushed up to the Tower to Fulfill his Vow without ever considering an additional outcome.

How could Snape have survived with out killing Dumbledore? Honestly, since we don't really know the sort of time-frame the Vow binds a person to it is possible,not guaranteed but possible that the Vow would not have killed Snape immediately.

It sounds to me like the idea that DD planned all this was _not_ what JKR herself had in mind, though she understands how someone might get there. She wasn't going to squash it because she enjoys reading the theories so much. Does anyone else read this differently?

I sort of felt the same as you, Brightwater, that she wanted to let people have fun theorizing.


T Brightwater - Aug 16, 2005 10:09 am (#2372 of 2980)
constant vigilance, Snape's cursing Flitwick bothers me too. Surely there were other ways of getting Hermione and Luna out of the way, if that was what he intended.

As to whether Snape could have escaped alive without killing DD, it depends on how the Vow operates. There was a practice called "mental reservation" used by English Catholics when they were being persecuted in the Renaissance - they would take an oath but interpret it to themselves in a way that left them an "out," thus leaving their consciences at peace. Someone suggested earlier that Snape could have been thinking to himself: "I'll carry out Draco's task if he can't - oh, sometime in the next hundred years or so." It helps that nothing in the Vow states _when_ he has to fulfill the task, but presumably in a timely enough manner to keep Draco from being harmed.


wynnleaf - Aug 16, 2005 10:20 am (#2373 of 2980)
Hate to add another thing we don't know...but we don't know Snape cursed Flitwick. Harry assumes that he did. Snape told Hermoine he collapsed or whatever. When Harry tells everyone that Snape cursed Flitwick, they assume that's correct. We never read where Flitwick confirms this.

Next time we see Flitwick in the Phoenix Lament it says:

"he had a large bruise on his forehead but seemed otherwise unscathed by his collapse in Snape's office."

Not "by his being stunned by Snape" or any otherwise clarifying words.


T Vrana - Aug 16, 2005 10:22 am (#2374 of 2980)
t brightwater and constant vigilance

But if Snape was really on the other side, why not kill Flitwick, and the "mudblood" Hermione and Luna?


Madam Pince - Aug 16, 2005 10:33 am (#2375 of 2980)
Edited Aug 16, 2005 11:37 am
Exactly my thought, T Vrana. I think Snape was simply protecting them by keeping them out of the way.

wynnleaf, an admirable summation of "Spinner's End." I agree with almost all of your points -- only thing I'm not totally convinced of is whether that house is actually Snape's home. No reason for it not to be, I guess. There was some phrase something like "it had an air of not having been lived in" which made me wonder, but if he's a professor living at Hogwarts most of the time, then it would make sense that it might have that air.

Regarding the Foe Glass, I'm in the camp that agrees that it is one of the most compelling arguments that "Snape is good" -- to me, the Foe Glass shows that the enemies of Dumbledore and McGonnagal are also Snape's enemies. On another thread, Troels Forchhammer argues that Barty Crouch's statement "There's nothing I hate worse than a Death Eater that walked free" could be the reason for Snape showing up in the Foe Glass. But I don't subscribe to that -- to me, "hate" and being an "enemy" are two different things. Plus, as Saralinda points out, it's probably not the owner's perceptions which influence the Foe Glass, or else what use would it be, really? Could be wrong though.


Wizadora - Aug 16, 2005 10:44 am (#2376 of 2980)
Oh dear - it is going to be a very long 2 years. I don't jknow if I can cope. All of these are excellent ideas and suggestions and they still leave us really no closer to really knowing. I bet JKR is laughing herself silly at our back and forth, back and forth on the side that Snape is really on.


Ag Hart - Aug 16, 2005 10:56 am (#2377 of 2980)
Edited Aug 16, 2005 12:01 pm
siliconsmiley-- I'm not implying that we should look at name symbolism instead of other clues, but it might be advantageous to add that extra something into the mix. The title of Chapter 2, suggests certain questions; Who is the "spinner"? Who is being spun? (In addition to the character(s), the reader certainly is by JKR-- she does have her little jokes!) Does the title suggest the end of the "spinning," or does it imply the end of the "spinner"? If we view the definition of "spinner" differently, exactly who is the spider and who is the fly? Depending on our answers, are we more likely to believe that Snape is loyal to DD, Snape is loyal to LV, or Snape is loyal to no one but himself?

irish flutterby-- Thanks for the input. If we ask ouselves, what would have happened had Snape slept through the action, as Draco intended, we may come closer to figuring out what Snape knew about the plan, how much he knew, and when he knew it.


Weeny Owl - Aug 16, 2005 11:48 am (#2378 of 2980)
But if Snape was really on the other side, why not kill Flitwick, and the "mudblood" Hermione and Luna?

Snape had no idea how many Death Eaters were in the castle, how many Order members, if Dumbledore was fighting them, or what the outcome might be.

He wouldn't have killed anyone arbitrarily until he was sure who was doing what. If Dumbledore and the Order were all healthy, and if they won the fight, then having three dead bodies in the dungeons might be difficult for Snape to explain. He could say it was a Death Eater, but it might still cause problems.

If there were a huge team of Death Eaters, and if they won the battle, Snape could always come back and kill the three later or send someone else to do it.


HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 16, 2005 11:58 am (#2379 of 2980)
Edited Aug 16, 2005 1:19 pm
I am still wondering about that last part of the Unbreakable Vow. Snape hesitated and twitched before agreeing to it. My immediate impression was that he didn't really expect Narcissa to ask him to do that, and he hesitated that split second because he wasn't sure if he wanted to agree to it.

Madame Pince, I think Snape and DD discussed the possibility of Narcissa approaching Snape for help, since her loser husband has been in the clink. With this in mind, the thought of Snape having to follow through with this, no matter what, must have come up, as it did with Harry and DD in the cave. I think he flinched at the end of the Unbreakable Vow because he realized at that very moment just what he must do if he continued with the vow.

I agree in that I don't think Snape knew the exact details of Draco's task, just that he had to do something (and Snape knew it was bad) to set his family right in Big V's eyes - never a small price. I do, however, think DD had a much more clear picture of Draco's task and prepared Snape for it to a certain extent. After all, he has a pretty good read on Big V. I know that when DD was insisting to Harry that he follows through no matter what, I thought, oh no - this is it, it does not look good for DD's fate. Why couldn't Snape have gotten that same thought from a similar conversation with DD?

Edit: Gosh, I started a post and by the time I finished it, there were 10 posts in between! T Brightwater, that interview suggested to me that JKR expected people to doubt whether DD was dead or not. It was the "cling to some desperate hope" part of the conversation that has me second-guessing Snape's true motives.


T Vrana - Aug 16, 2005 12:04 pm (#2380 of 2980)
Weeny Owl- by that argument he should not have stunned Flitwick either, how would he explain that? If he wasn't sure which way the battle would go, he would have left Fliwick alone. Stunning Flitwick committed him to leaving...


siliconsmiley - Aug 16, 2005 12:06 pm (#2381 of 2980)
Nor was I Ag Hart. JKR is a very clever writer with many levels to her works who, I think, has become more clever under the microscopic scrutiny of her audience.


Weeny Owl - Aug 16, 2005 1:11 pm (#2382 of 2980)
Weeny Owl- by that argument he should not have stunned Flitwick either, how would he explain that? If he wasn't sure which way the battle would go, he would have left Fliwick alone. Stunning Flitwick committed him to leaving...

We don't know exactly what happened. I'm sure Snape did stun Flitwick, but if he was using a nonverbal spell, then he could always say that Flitwick tripped and knocked himself out.


wynnleaf - Aug 16, 2005 1:36 pm (#2383 of 2980)
constant vigilance said: "There were only 3 Death Eaters on the roof aside from Draco, who was not acting too hex-frisky at the time. Snape could have, accio'd Dumbledore's wand back. Snape could have removed the barrier on the stairs that prevented other Order members from getting on the Tower. "

Actually, there were four. "Harry gazed in terror upon four strangers.." Lumpy man with leer named Amycus, a woman named Alecto, Fenrir the werewolf, and I'm not sure of the 4th. But again it says, "So these four had not eliminated all opposition."

Also, since we have no idea how the barrier was made, we have absolutely no evidence that Snape could remove it -- but we do have the evidence that none of the other Order members could.

On my "time to do what?" question, I meant that more would have to occur in a brief space of time than just Draco making up his mind to turn from LV. Actions would have to be taken -- DE's were on their way, after all! If DD said he could hide and protect Draco, he must have really been able to do it, despite DE's heading up the stairs -- so I don't think he was so weak that he'd be of no threat to a possibly disloyal Snape.

On another note, thanks T Vrana. My favorite realization from Spinner's End was that Snape had so many taunts to give about the DE's failure at the MoM in oop, but after re-reading DD's account of everything in oop, it was obvious that Snape was under no pressure to send his 2nd message (no possible pressure after sending the first message to Sirius in order to "keep his cover"), alerting the Order, and sending them to the MoM, completely upsetting LV's and the DE's plans. Which means he was really "using" Bellatrix to the nth degree!

Oh, and on Snape's house...besides Bellatrix saying "he lives here?" about the house, Wormtail also says he was supposed to assist Snape, "not to make you drinks and - and clean your house."


T Brightwater - Aug 16, 2005 3:21 pm (#2384 of 2980)
I think Snape was keeping his options open as long as he could - no matter who questioned him, he could point to enough of his own acts for their side to prove that was the side he was on. (We who have been doing it for him can attest to that!) Whatever his motivations and whichever side he's really on besides his own, he would have to be able to do that to maintain his cover. If Draco had succeeded, he could indeed have stayed on a bit longer at Hogwarts, and probably would have, expressing deepest regret that he was just seconds too late to save DD.

With DD gone he can't play that role anymore. I wonder, if Voldemort realizes that Harry is looking for and destroying his Horcruxes, will he enlist some extra help to guard them? And who more trustworthy than the man who killed DD? Lots of room for plot twists in that scenario.

If Snape gained DD's trust through feigned remorse over the Potters' deaths, it will be interesting to see what happens if he suffers _real_ remorse over DD's death - and has no one who will believe him.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 16, 2005 4:04 pm (#2385 of 2980)
Edited Aug 16, 2005 5:05 pm
T Brightwater, "the fact that Snape was asleep suggests to me that neither DD nor Draco had told him anything was planned for tonight."

Could you please point me in the direction where it states Snape was asleep? I can't seem to find it.

I did find "So then he came upstairs," said Harry, who was watching Snape running up the marble staircase in his mind's eye, his black robes billowing behind him as ever, pulling his wand from under his cloak as he ascended, "and he found the place where you were all fighting. ..." Scholistic pp. 620.

Seems to me since Snape didn't appear in his nightshirt but fully dressed he was not alseep. Mayhaps waiting?


T Brightwater - Aug 16, 2005 4:07 pm (#2386 of 2980)
DD tells Harry to go and wake up Severus, and I think Draco says something to DD like "when he wakes up in the morning he won't be the Dark Lord's favorite anymore." It sounded like both of them at least _thought_ Snape was asleep, and therefore that neither had let him know anything was planned.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 16, 2005 4:09 pm (#2387 of 2980)
Thank you, I was beginning to wonder if I was losing what little mind I have left.

...toddles off to ponder some more...


T Vrana - Aug 16, 2005 4:12 pm (#2388 of 2980)
weeny owl- Wouldn't Flitwick know what it feels like to be stunned?


constant vigilance - Aug 16, 2005 4:20 pm (#2389 of 2980)
Edited Aug 16, 2005 5:22 pm
My bad---I remembered the names of Amycus, Alecto and Greyback. I forgot there was a fourth.

T VRana, that was an excellent question. I agree with Weeny Owl's response about Why Snape did not kill Hermione, Luna, and Flitwick. Since Flitwick seems to have no recollection of what happened to him, though, Snape could claim innocent of any wrong doing. It was only after Snape had killed Dumbledore that people compiled a list of odd things Snape had done in that short span of time.

Also, Snape seems to be a huge fan of following rules and direct orders. If Voldemort had said only kill Dumbledore then, I believe, that is the only person Snape would have attempted to kill. Snape has a history of disliking those who break rules. He is constantly talking about how Harry bends the rules. Lucius behaved the same way in OotP. So, I think its believable (and you do not have to agree) that Snape did only as he was told.

Is it not interesting that both groups whom Snape is supposed to be working for are dueling in front of him? Who is he going to assist? Does he declare sides now? I think Snape was sort of forced to give up the Double-Agent life when Flitwick woke him up. I mean...sure Dumbledore would have accepted Snape staying out of the fight for the purpose of keeping his cover. But would the Order members accept that excuse when they are risking their lives? Wouldn't the Death Eaters be disturbed if Snape did not help them? Bellatrix was certainly skeptical of Snape's loyalties for not participating in the MoM trip.

I'm inclined to believe Snape's actions in the Lightening Tower was his "coming-out party." Snape stunned Flitwick because he knew Flitwick had a reputation for being a superb dueler, and headed straight for the Tower. If Snape had stopped to help the Death Eaters, who were fighting the Order, well then the Order would have known whose side Snape was playing for. They would have attacked him as well, and this would delay him from getting to the Tower. If he had stopped to help the Order...that would have gotten him killed too. oy..I'm getting tangled.

*crosses fingers and thinks: please, no more line by line critics of my words**


irish flutterby - Aug 16, 2005 4:56 pm (#2390 of 2980)
"Something happened that made Snape hate LV and want to have him killed or kill him himself. But, the only person who knows (knew) why is DD. That's why DD trusts Snape so completely. But Snape made him promise he would never tell his secret to anyone."

Maybe LV hung him upside down and showed all the DE's his greying underpants. LOL

Maybe it's been said already, but maybe Spinner's End is just a reference to the old addage.."Oh what a teangled web we weave, when first we practice to decieve." Maybe Snape finds himself in a tangle he can't get out of in HBP.


HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 16, 2005 5:04 pm (#2391 of 2980)
I agree with that, irish flutterby. I think he has been called out by both sides, hasn't he? Now it's up to us to decide which side he was deceiving most. I like the Mme. Pince theory.


Weeny Owl - Aug 16, 2005 8:10 pm (#2392 of 2980)
T VRana, that was an excellent question. I agree with Weeny Owl's response about Why Snape did not kill Hermione, Luna, and Flitwick. Since Flitwick seems to have no recollection of what happened to him, though, Snape could claim innocent of any wrong doing. It was only after Snape had killed Dumbledore that people compiled a list of odd things Snape had done in that short span of time.

That's pretty much how I saw it. If Flitwick doesn't remember what happened to him, possibly because of a concussion, Snape could have said pretty much anything. As it is, Snape is the only one, at the moment, who knows exactly what happened.


Lizardbeth Johnson - Aug 16, 2005 9:11 pm (#2393 of 2980)
Hungarian Horntail : I think he has been called out by both sides, hasn't he?

Or at least LV decided to show the Spinner who's in charge, lest Snape start to get delusions of playing both sides. The whole situation just smells of "loyalty test" to me. Draco was the bait, which Snape took. Sending Draco out to be killed wasn't the point of the exercise -- forcing Snape into declaring himself one way or the other was. After all, it's got to grate on that sociopath's nerves that Snape was fooling Dumbledore (since Riddle never could) and raise the suspicion that Snape was also playing him. So he set the plan in motion to pit Snape against DD and see what happened. I'm sure he's very happy now.

Though hopefully he'll be a lot less happy about it at some point in book 7...


septentrion - Aug 17, 2005 12:34 am (#2394 of 2980)
Lizardbeth, your idea sure has merit. Now LV has tampered down any suspiscions about Snape's loyalties among DE as well as among the Order. And it may have been DD's idea too (to make sure Snape is trusted by DE and not being killed, I don't think DD to be the suicidal kind).


Saracene - Aug 17, 2005 2:38 am (#2395 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 3:54 am
I've just come to this board and now my brain hurts from reading this humongous thread, Smile

I'd find the idea of Snape playing both sides and caring of his own survival first and most pretty convincing... except for the fact that he is the only Death Eater who chose to switch sides not after James and Lily's deaths, as Harry (wrongly) tells everyone, but before that, when Voldemort is at his most powerful and it surely looks like a wise move to stick by him. He could have easily done what other Death Eaters did after LV went down and run to Dumbledore with his sob story of remorse then. Also, playing double agents is definitely NOT a great survival strategy since double agents often tend to die horrible, painful, messy deaths. And I can't really imagine Voldemort going to all that trouble of arranging a loyalty test for Snape; I think that if he felt he had any reason to suspect Snape at all he'd put him to torture and death with no fuss. He's got plenty more Death Eaters.

I really think that we haven't seen the last of Snape's Potions book, and I'd really love to know why he didn't want it linked with him. Especially since it would have given him a golden opportunity to expose Harry's new-found brilliance at potions for what it is. I don't really find Hermione's explanation that "Dumbledore wouldn't have liked to know about it" very convincing. What's so condemning about a few admittedly nasty spells Snape scribbled down as a teenager compared to his later stint as a Death Eater? Snape doesn't even bother to hide his fascination with Dark Arts and everyone already knows that he's always had a bigtime nasty, vindictive streak in his character. The only new information we find out about him is the fact that he's a half-blood, but if Snape was so eager to hide it why reveal himself to Harry as a Half-Blood Prince?

BTW, even if Draco did manage to kill Dumbledore and Snape didn't have to do it, I rather doubt that Snape would be able to remain and spy on the Order for longer. Dumbledore was the -only- reason why anyone in the Order was prepared to trust Snape and why Snape wasn't dragged off to Azkaban ages ago. If Dumbledore died, even without direct evidence of Snape's involvement I don't think Harry would be the only one voicing suspicions.


wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2005 4:03 am (#2396 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 5:04 am
"I'd find the idea of Snape playing both sides and caring of his own survival first and most pretty convincing... except for the fact that he is the only Death Eater who chose to switch sides not after James and Lily's deaths, as Harry (wrongly) tells everyone, but before that, when Voldemort is at his most powerful and it surely looks like a wise move to stick by him."

Good points.

In addition, Snape is as far as I recall the only DE to have voluntarily put his life on the line simply to protect another person (Draco). If you go back and carefully read Spinners End, realizing that Bellatrix and Narcissa aren't particularly "in favor" with LV, you can see that Snape is really under no pressure at all to even offer to help Draco, much less take on an unbreakable vow to do it. Not particularly self-serving or a great survival technique in my opinion.


Saracene - Aug 17, 2005 5:18 am (#2397 of 2980)
I'm BTW firmly on the "Snape is a bad person on the good side" bandwagon, despite not exactly understanding the events of HBP. Weird as it sounds, but I have absolute faith in Dumbledore's adamantine trust in Snape precisely because the weight of evidence against Snape's trustworthiness is so overwhelming. There's got to be a truly monumental reason in order for Dumbledore to put trust in someone who's a Death Eater AND a superb Occlumens and actor AND is clearly obsessed with Dark Arts AND is a cold nasty bastard AND belongs to the house that produced Voldemort and his merry men (and who, for the readers' benefit, wears black, has black greasy hair and cold black eyes, and bears a hissy evil-sounding name. Come on, what else can you add to the portrait??) Some sob story of regret simply doesn't cut it, especially when it concerns a man that Snape has nothing but utter hatred for and doesn't hide it from anyone. Dumbledore is no fool. He may have given Tom Riddle a second chance, but he knew better than to trust or be charmed by him like all the other people at Hogwarts were.

Literary reasons: I know you could make a case for how clever JKR is repeatedly dangling Snape in front of us as a red herring and making us believe he's trustworthy after all only to spring the "Gotcha!!" surprise in the sixth book. However I can't believe that this one-shot trick is all she ever meant to use the character for when the alternative offers much richer possibilities story and character-wise, especially when it comes to Snape's relationship with Harry. Harry never stopped hating and mistrusting Snape and along the course of six books Harry's animosity builds and builds until he hates Snape as much as he does Voldemort and practically wallows in his hatred. It IMO would be really really dull if there's nothing left to their story except Harry finding and killing Snape; therefore I fully expect that Harry will have the carpet yanked from under his feet where Snape's concerned in a major way. If you consider that HBP is going to be linked to the final book very closely and therefore acts as the first half of the larger book, the end of HBP sets Snape up as a bigger-than-ever red herring perfectly.

Also, Snape's the only character who came back to the good side from the bad side and as such has a strong potential for the message of redemption and power of regret attached (and of course came-from-bad characters like him also have a tendency to die before the end but I think I'm reconciled to that and won't need therapy).


T Vrana - Aug 17, 2005 5:59 am (#2398 of 2980)
Saracene- I agree. Well said.


rambkowalczyk - Aug 17, 2005 6:24 am (#2399 of 2980)
I am about 149 posts behind on this thread but today I did something mysterious to bring me to the end. (And it wasn't hitting the recent button.) Before I go back and read through the previous posts I just want to agree with wynnleaf for noting that Snape's action regarding Draco were not necessarily self serving but that he has an affection for Draco (as well as Narcissa).

On the thread significance of the title Half Blood Prince I noted that this story (all 7 books) are as much about Snape as it is about Harry.

In a lot of ways he is very central to the book. He is a half blood. He appears to care for both Narcissa and Lily. (the evidence for the latter is more circumstantial). Narcissa is a pureblood. Lily is Muggleborn. His actions and words to their sons are contrary.

Up to book 6 Draco looked up to Snape. We can assume that Snape acted in a godfatherly way to Draco guiding him along. In book 6, Snape is breaking from his childhood dependance on his mentor and questioning his motives.

Up to book 6 Harry hates and distrusts Snape. But he trusts the writings of the half blood prince. Whenever he has a problem he consults the book. Even after cursing Draco with Sectumsempra he does not blame the half blood prince but tries to put it in perspective. In one sense Harry is breaking away from his previous prejudices as a child and learning to understand the motives of his potion teacher. (I realize this analogy isn't entirely correct as Harry still hates Snape even after he discovers his identity.

About 150 posts ago someone mentioned about the crooning that Snape did to heal Draco and compared it to the phoenix. Suppose Snape when he was 11 had a choice as to which house to be sorted in. Harry said any place but Slytherin because he associated it with Draco. Suppose Severus said any place but Gryffindor because he associated it with Sirius Black and James Potter.(assuming that he knew of the two before school.)


T Brightwater - Aug 17, 2005 7:56 am (#2400 of 2980)
I'm still not convinced about Snape's fondness for Lily. I think that from the first four books we were all looking for a reason for Snape to hate James (and Harry) so much, not to mention a reason for Snape to come back to the right side. His having a crush on Lily seemed to fit the bill. (I thought so too.) However, the Pensieve memory gives us another reason for Snape's hatred, and doesn't show any particular affection involved.

It's at least possible that Lily didn't know much more about Snape than that he was a Slytherin who got picked on a lot by James & friends, and that he didn't know much about her except that she was a Muggleborn and a Gryffindor. They didn't necessarily have classes together before their sixth year. (The Gryffindors of Harry's year never had any classes with the Ravenclaws, for example.)

She may have come to his defense just as she would have to anyone else she felt was unfairly treated - and decided, after being called a Mudblood, that he wasn't worth defending after all. Snape may even have been an excuse for her to have a confrontation with James. All we've actually seen of Snape and Lily together is that one Pensieve memory, and I don't think we can deduce any affection on either part from that. (I suggested earlier that maybe she liked him, but I've changed my mind.) At least not at that point - something might have developed later.

As to Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily, I have another idea about why she might have been spared, which I have posted on the Voldemort thread.
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wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2005 8:14 am (#2401 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 9:21 am
Saracene, excellent post. We often get caught up in analyzing plots and characters etc. as though we were just figuring out a detective story. But in terms of literature, Snape's character has far more meaty stuff to offer as a redemptive story than a "he's really the bad guy, now the hero just has to defeat him" story.

On another note: On the Eileen Prince thread Lizardbeth Johnson brought up the point that we have not ever seen Snape patronus. JKR seemed to imply that if she told us what his patronus was, it would really reveal something. But as Lizardbeth Johnson pointed out, all of the Order members probably know what his patronus is. It neither allowed them to guess what DD’s reason was for trusting Snape, nor appeared to give them any reason to continue to trust Snape after DD’s death.

While I’m sure this has been discussed before, in light of the above comment, does this change anyone’s theories on Snape’s patronus?


Weeny Owl - Aug 17, 2005 9:42 am (#2402 of 2980)
T, there is one other thing, albeit an omission, that can be put in the column for Snape caring about Lily (friend, sister figure, or romantic interest doesn't matter), and that is that never, not once, has Snape said anything negative directly to Harry about Lily. Snape doesn't mention Lily at all, which seems strange to me since there are plenty of nasty things he could say.


T Brightwater - Aug 17, 2005 10:16 am (#2403 of 2980)
What could he have said to Harry about Lily? That she stood up for him once? That she was good at Potions?


T Vrana - Aug 17, 2005 10:29 am (#2404 of 2980)
That she was a fool for marrying arrogant James?


Weeny Owl - Aug 17, 2005 10:53 am (#2405 of 2980)
What could he have said to Harry about Lily?

Hmm... oh, things about how she was a Mudblood and that if she hadn't married that arrogant James Potter perhaps she wouldn't have died (similar to what T Vrana said). That she married someone who tried to blackmail her into dating him. That she deserved what she got since she married someone who was friends with a werewolf. Stuff like that.

Snape never mentions her at all, and by him not saying anything about her, it makes me wonder if her death hurt him and he just can't speak of her without thinking that he's at least partially responsible. He wouldn't have to be madly in love with her for her death to hurt him... just thinking of her as a friend or a sister-type figure, or even just someone he respected might do it.


haymoni - Aug 17, 2005 11:40 am (#2406 of 2980)
He couldn't have said the Mudblood bit when he was a teacher - Dumbledore never would have stood for that - but he could have said it when he was slashing at Harry by Hagrid's hut.

He could have accused Lily of being an insufferable know-it-all like Hermione. Whether she was or not isn't the point - he still could have said it. "Your arrogant father & your know-it-all mother"


Sparrowhawk - Aug 17, 2005 11:44 am (#2407 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 1:14 pm
He could also have said that Lily wasn't half as good at making potions as she believed herself to be, and so many things like that - it would not have mattered one bit whether they were true or false!

Since GoF at least, I had noticed Snape's complete silence when it came to Lily, and concluded that there was some reason behind. Therefore, when I read the Snape/Lily pensieve chapter in OotP, I smiled, thinking that JKR had found a nice way to put many readers off track. And of course in HBP, it was Harry and nobody else who insisted that Snape despised his mother for being a Mudblood - this based on the sole testimony of the pensieve scene...

And I believe that there was good reason why JKR made Slughorn, the potions master closely connected to Snape and Lily, allude to the power of obsessional love...

Haymoni, I just see that we have been thinking along the same lines, although you posted one or two minutes earlier! Surprised)


T Vrana - Aug 17, 2005 12:05 pm (#2408 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 1:05 pm
"And I believe that there was good reason why JKR made Slughorn, the potions master closely connected to Snape and Lily, allude to the power of obsessional love..."

I agree.

Someone clever pointed out on another thread, Aunt Petunia's comment that she knew about Dementors because she heard "that awful boy" talking to Lily about them, that perhaps the awful boy was Snape. Wouldn't it be just like Snape to be discussing dementors? And wouldn't Pertunia have said "that Potter boy" if she was referring to James...


Sparrowhawk - Aug 17, 2005 12:16 pm (#2409 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 1:16 pm
Yes, I had read that, and it sounded like a very interesting possibility! It is clear that Petunia knew more about the WW than she wanted to let be known! Surprised)


Valfunde - Aug 17, 2005 2:05 pm (#2410 of 2980)
For those of you who have just recently posted all the nasty things Snape could've said about Lily and didn't - I agree with you. The absence of Snape saying ANYTHING about Lily to Harry or anyone else for that matter speaks volumes to me. The "mudblood" comment could have been a red herring from JKR to throw us off-track, but this memory she gives us is supposed to be Snape's worst memory. What makes it is worst? There have been many opinions posted as to why this would be. I think what makes it his worst is something to do with Lily and what unforgivable name he called her. Just my opinion.

Since I am a supporter of the Eileen Prince is Irma Pince Theory(Madam Pince is Snape's Mom - MPISM), I think we might find Snape's patronus to be a vulture. Here's a version of what I posted on the Eileen Prince thread earlier today:

If Irma Pince is Snape's mom, and his patronus is based on his mother's love and on why DD trusted him/MPISM, then I have my bet on a VULTURE patronus! Others in the Order might think it odd and since a vulture is literally a "death eater," they might question Snape's loyalties based on his patronus too. (Maybe that's one of the reasons why everyone in the Order so easily believes that Snape killed DD when Harry tells them what he witnessed. They don't understand the meaning behind the vulture patronus.)

Also, when Neville thinks of Snape as his boggart, the thing that makes Snape NOT the thing Neville fears most is popping him into his gran's clothes. Funny bit, BUT the ladies' hat Snape is wearing has a big vulture on the top of it!


irish flutterby - Aug 17, 2005 2:25 pm (#2411 of 2980)
Just a thought, but has anyone considered that there might be another way that Snape is connected to LV outside of being a DE? Like, he was a DE, then found out that LV was the person who______(whatever) or Like he's LV's illegitimate son (not really), but something like that?

Maybe Snape found out about that and it totally turned him off to LV?


Lizardbeth Johnson - Aug 17, 2005 2:38 pm (#2412 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 3:52 pm
Since wynnleaf so kindly imported my Patronus question here, I'll add that it seemed especially odd to me that JKR would need to keep Snape's Patronus' a secret, when we now know that the Order uses them as messengers. I can see where if they were only rarely used against dementors then Order members might not know each others, but if they're Order cellphones, then the others should know Snape's. So therefore, Snape's Patronus can't really give away his allegiance as we all supposed it did. Whether it's a phoenix or a vulture (cool idea, Valfunde), none of the Order seem to think it's particularly definitive one way or the other. Certainly no one mentions it at the end. So it made me wonder whether the Patronus fits into a different secret JKR is hiding from us about Snape, like the Pince-Prince (MPISM) theory or something else. Any other thoughts?

Adding to respond to irish flutterby:

Eileen probably overlapped Riddle at Hogwarts by at least a year, maybe two or three. I don't have any idea at the moment what it could be, but something could have happened then. Maybe she was sucked into the orginal DE crowd and eventually killed because of it(assuming of course she's not Madam Pince), and that's what turned Snape off? just a guess.

Edit: I wrote the phoenix part above before I read Chemyst's next post, because I've seen Snape's patronus being guessed as a phoenix before. But not the idea that Fawkes is now with him. That's nifty.


Chemyst - Aug 17, 2005 2:41 pm (#2413 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 4:04 pm
does this change anyone’s theories on Snape’s patronus? - wynnleaf
OK, I'll bite. How about a phoenix? How about if Fawkes goes to Snape? Harry says, "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix had gone, had left Hogwarts for good..." Snape seems to have left Hogwarts for good...

If Fawkes would go with Snape, that could give things away. If we KNEW Snape's patronus was a phoenix, we might guess Fawkes, supplier of wand cores, would go with Snape. Fawkes helped Harry survive Riddle in CS, and again, by tail feather & music, with Harry's GF survival. Third time is a charm?

Best guess at this point: JKR wouldn't tell us Snape's patronus because it would make whose side he is on a lot more obvious. If it were a bat or vulture or wasp, that would not reveal whose side he is on; it would just seem to fit his goth-look.


irish flutterby - Aug 17, 2005 2:49 pm (#2414 of 2980)
if nothing else, maybe JKR gives us a clue in that Snape's "crooning over Draco" was likened to the Pheonix song. Maybe it's not, though. How exactly do the Patronuses work. Would an Order member be able to distinguish between DD's and Snape's if they were both Pheonixes.

If Snape's becomes a Pheonix after DD's death as a result of remorse for the death (his murder) of a man that he loved and respected. Could Snape communicate with and help Harry/ the Order through the Pheonix Patronus and/or Fawkes and they come under the impression that it's DD in hiding rather that Snape.


Weeny Owl - Aug 17, 2005 2:49 pm (#2415 of 2980)
I had that same thought, Chemyst, in comparing PoA to HBP and Sirius to Snape.

Sirius was innocent and Crookshanks protected him. Snape is innocent and Fawkes protects him. I could picture Harry facing Snape the same way he faced Sirius, and just as Crookshanks threw himself over Sirius's heart, Fawkes would do the same with Snape.


Sparrowhawk - Aug 17, 2005 2:53 pm (#2416 of 2980)
Although JKR has written that members of the Order use Patronuses as messengers, there has been no indication that Snape himself had ever used one, so maybe he personally never relies on them as a means of communication - how would someone as secretive as he is want to provide anyone with an intimate information of that sort?

Also, it has been pointed out by someone - I don't remember who - that it may well have been the reason why Snape and Harry had an argument over the best way to fight dementors. We don't know for sure, of course, but there is a possibility that Snape had devised another method, which he found more appropriate because it would be less revealing (and of course, we know that he is more than able to invent new spells).


irish flutterby - Aug 17, 2005 2:56 pm (#2417 of 2980)
"...just as Crookshanks threw himself over Sirius's heart, Fawkes would do the same with Snape."

I think Fawkes would definately be a better give away than Crookshanks, because, at the time, Harry wasn't sure Crookshanks was all that great. Fawkes, on the other hand, is a trusted messenger.


constant vigilance - Aug 17, 2005 3:18 pm (#2418 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 4:54 pm
It's at least possible that Lily didn't know much more about Snape than that he was a Slytherin who got picked on a lot by James & friends, and that he didn't know much about her except that she was a Muggleborn and a Gryffindor. They didn't necessarily have classes together before their sixth year. (The Gryffindors of Harry's year never had any classes with the Ravenclaws, for example.) T Brightwater.

I have thought the same thing. Well articulated, Brightwater. I am not sold, yet, on the Lily-Snape connection. Snape ommiting snide remarks about Lily could mean he fancied her, or it could mean that given he viewed her as a "mudblood" she wasn't worth his attention.

Psychologically speaking, it makes sense, to me, for Snape to obsess over Sirius and James. As a member of Slytherin House, Snape would have been surrounded by people who considered being a pureblood the only type of wizard worth being and knowing. As a Half-Blood, this could have caused Snape to feel somewhat, but not entirely [he did willingly used the title Half-Blood Prince], insecure. Also, in Slytherin House he definately would have been around those who dispised Muggle-born Wizards. As consolation to himself, Snape finds that he--within the Slytherin House--is better than the Muggle-borns (Lily) but less than Pure-Wizards (Sirius & James).

James and Sirius represent what Snape wants to be..(how he wants to see himself, and perhaps he has a quiet desperation to be popular amongst others--many who loathe the world and shove people away, really want companionship but they are afraid of being hurt/disappointed).. They also represent things which Snape hates: blatant arrogance, popularity and a disregard for the rules (curious that Voldemort & Slytherin posessed this quality ) Add to this the fact that James & Sirius, out of boredom and prejudice, harrassed Snape it just makes sense for him to loathe them (but does not excuse his well-nurtured grudge).

Meanwhile Lily, or any other Muggle-born are of no matter to him. He does not focus on the shortcomings because by birth they are considered to be less than he.

Of course, this is pure speculation. I do no know to what extent Snape felt loyal to the dogma of Salizar Slytherin, but it does make sense if his comment to Lily in the Pensieve was intentionally and sincere---he actually considered Muggle-borns to be dirty-blood.

Then again, it could be argued that Snape should have loathed Lily for being an excellent student. Draco is definately chuffed that Hermione Granger is the best in his class, and Lucius has no problems reminding Draco of the problem. A muggle-born, one with no wizarding back-ground putting the Pure-blood or Half-blood to shame! gasp! (definately sarcasm there...)

edited because of spelling errors


T Brightwater - Aug 17, 2005 3:19 pm (#2419 of 2980)
Snape did use the Patronus-gram in OotP - DD says that "members of the Order have more reliable methods of communicating than the fire in Dplores Umbridge's office." and that Snape used this to determine that Sirius was safely at 12 GP. And it was in answer to a question about this very passage that JKR gave us the Patronus-gram information on her website.

So, whatever Snape's Patronus is (though I have a hard time imagining him having a happy enough memory to conjure one) it's something that would mean a lot to us, but wouldn't necessarily have the same associations to other Order members. I rather like the vulture idea. If Neville's grandmother wears a hat with a stuffed vulture on it, vultures must not be considered too bad in wizard culture.


irish flutterby - Aug 17, 2005 3:35 pm (#2420 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 4:36 pm
I think in considering the remark that Snape makes to Lily in the Pensieve, we must realize the tendency of adolescent boys with pride to protect. It is just like a young man to have a crush on a girl and "pick on her" in front of others. Yes, even to the point of rude name calling. Especially when she would be considered "uncool" by his group of friends. In addition, I think Snape has "stalled" in some areas oh his psycholigical development. Often children who go through some trauma (I've noticed particularly in a relationship of some sort) stop developing and retain the habits whatever developmental period they are in.

So, for example, Snape is a kid of early elementary age when he really absorbs the abuse of his father. At this point he is scarred by the trauma of this abuse to the point that he stops developing relationally. So he continues to interact (particularly with females as he has seen his father's abuse of his mother who Daddy Snape is supposed to love) as pre-adolescent would. He continues to mature in other social areas enough to know, for example, that chasing and hitting girls you like isn't good. But he still treats them as a boy would calling names, etc. ALSO, he sees Daddy Snape abusing a woman that he is suuposed to love, Momma Snape (IMO MPISM), and therefore, treats the woman that he is attracted to in the same manner.

That's my two knuts worth. If it's worth that much


constant vigilance - Aug 17, 2005 4:03 pm (#2421 of 2980)
I think in considering the remark that Snape makes to Lily in the Pensieve, we must realize the tendency of adolescent boys with pride to protect. It is just like a young man to have a crush on a girl and "pick on her" in front of others. Yes, even to the point of rude name calling. Especially when she would be considered "uncool" by his group of friends.

I agree irish flutterby. This could very well be why Snape quickly spat a slur at Lily. I just wanted to explore a different reason why Snape has yet to insult her.


Maia Aine - Aug 17, 2005 4:57 pm (#2422 of 2980)
If Snape moved to the dark side, why didn't he just grab Harry (stun or stupify him) when he had him on the ground and defenceless (without his wand or backup from the Order and DD )in Flight of the Prince, drag him back to LV and end it there? He'd have been the hero of the DE's and LV.

So many good theories either way. I lean to Snape still being DD's man. He never really hurt Harry in that exchange in Flight, actually Snape protected him from another DE and instructed him to keep on protecting himself (keeping his mind closed etc). While Snape got on Harry's back a lot, I can't remember him giving Harry a detention that was overtly vicious - not like that Umbridge woman did.


loopy4loopin - Aug 17, 2005 7:05 pm (#2423 of 2980)
I agree CV.

There is no evidence for Snape liking Lily at all. I also think that Narcissa is much more his style.

For me the clincher is that Snape went over to Voldemort. Knowing Snape, he would have done this of his own free will. Considering what Voldemort advocated for muggle born wizards, this would have been a bizzare move for someone who was in love with one.

Then we see Snape making unbreakable vows for a pureblood princess.....and you know, that makes a lot more sense.

Can anyone honestly see Snape falling in love with someone as jolly as Lilly?


wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2005 7:06 pm (#2424 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 8:13 pm
I really like the idea of a phoenix patronus for Snape. If the patronus has to be conjured by using your happiest memory -- well, it doesn't, as we recall with Harry, necessarily been happy/fun memory. It can simply mean a deeper kind of happiness. Don't know, but could Snape (I'm talking a loyal Snape) have felt a deep "happiness" at DD's trust?

But if the phoenix doesn't work, then maybe the vulture would work if it reflects happy thoughts regarding his mom.

On another note, it just doesn't make sense -- even given sort of an adolescent emotional state -- to not only harbor a school time grudge for 20 years, but have it be such that it moves one to incredibly despicable behavior. Especially when all of the objects of the grudge (James, Sirius, Lupin) have been out of the picture for most of the intervening years between James and Lily's deaths and the time of the books. In other words, this theory depends on Snape harboring the grudge -- without anyone of the individuals around to feed it -- for a dozen years and it returning in full force as soon as he's reminded of James when Harry appears, or sees Lupin or Sirius. When you're a teenager you might think that you'll hate your school time rival forever, but years pass and without some adult types of reasons, that kind of school grudge just doesn't tend to survive.

Oh, and I haven't seen any evidence that Snape has any prejudices against those who aren't purebloods. Where is everyone getting that? Is there something in canon that tells us this, or is it just speculation? The fact that he allows Slytherins to get away with name calling (and I don't know that we've seen that happen more than maybe once in his presence), doesn't make him personally opposed to mixed blood or muggle born wizards. And the "half blood Prince" title practically flaunts it as though he's proud of it. Harry compares the title to LV, but can anyone actually imagine LV calling himself the "half-blood Lord V?" No, LV doesn't really even want anyone to know.


loopy4loopin - Aug 17, 2005 7:14 pm (#2425 of 2980)
Hi Wynnleaf,

I think that evidence for that is Snape becoming a death eater. It's like joining the SS, you assume that the person who does it is racist.

There is also his treatment of Hermione whom he should admire as the best student in his class. He disliked her before she became friends with Harry - why?


Weeny Owl - Aug 17, 2005 7:39 pm (#2426 of 2980)
Oh, and I haven't seen any evidence that Snape has any prejudices against those who aren't purebloods. Where is everyone getting that?

He called Lily a Mudblood.


wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2005 7:40 pm (#2427 of 2980)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 8:43 pm
I think he disliked her as a know-it-all. He's awful to Neville, too, you know and he's pureblood.

As to his mudbood remark to Lily, an adolescent's remark in a moment of extreme anger and embarrassment is not nessarily evidence of a thoroughgoing racist.


constant vigilance - Aug 17, 2005 7:45 pm (#2428 of 2980)
There is also his treatment of Hermione whom he should admire as the best student in his class. He disliked her before she became friends with Harry - why?

Good point. loopy4loopin. I speculate that it is not because of her intelligence but something else--and being Muggle-born is definately part of that something.


Weeny Owl - Aug 17, 2005 7:59 pm (#2429 of 2980)
As to his mudbood remark to Lily, an adolescent's remark in a moment of extreme anger and embarrassment is not nessarily evidence of a thoroughgoing racist.

Add to it him becoming a member of a group of racists who not only want to take over the Wizarding World but also want to kill Muggles and Muggle-borns, I would say it's fairly indicative of Snape having blood prejudices at least before he came over to the right side.


T Brightwater - Aug 17, 2005 8:11 pm (#2430 of 2980)
The fact that Hermione shows up his Slytherin students may have something to do with it.

In fact, is it possible that she reminds him of Lily and that's why he _dislikes_ her? She doesn't seem to have Lily's sense of humor, but she's a Muggleborn and the best in the Potions class. I think he's more likely to have seen Lily as a rival, particularly as she was Slughorn's favorite, than to have had a crush on her. I agree that Narcissa seems more like his type, and she's certainly gotten more physical with him than anyone else we've met in the series.

As for Snape's grudge against James & friends, I still think there's a fair amount of guilt mixed in there, whether because of something he did to them that we don't know about (Dumbledore's "My memory is as good as it ever was" sounds to me like _he_ knew there were two sides to the story) or from him telling Voldemort about the prophecy, leading to the death of someone to whom he owed a life debt. I can easily see Snape dealing with his guilt by dwelling on his resentment.


Saracene - Aug 17, 2005 9:56 pm (#2431 of 2980)
Regarding Lily and Snape: I think it's important to remember that the Pensieve memory we saw showed one tiny little sliver of their times at school together and it may not have been a full picture. If you didn't know beforehand that Lily and James would eventually get married and only had that Pensieve snapshot to go by, how would you rate their chances of -ever- hooking up together?

I agree that there's little evidence of Snape having some pronounced prejudice against Muggle-borns. He probably is not -entirely- free of bigotry on that issue, but there are after all many shades to prejudice. With some people it's a case of unabashed hostility and violence; while with others it's a lot more passive and doesn't preclude them from liking a few individual Muggle-borns. Slughorn I think has a shade of condescending attitude towards non pure-blood wizards but his affection for Lily is IMO absolutely genuine. And I just don't see Snape joining Death Eaters because he so zealously believed in Voldemort's agenda on the Muggle-borns; with him I think other, more powerful factors were at play.

I don't think there's anything strange about Snape still holding grudges about something that happened more than 20 years ago; it's not at all uncommon for people to never completely recover from the traumas they suffered in their childhoods. Our feeling and emotions are so incredibly raw at that age; I know I still have a few unresolved anger issues with several people in my life even though I'd like to think I'm a bit more self-aware and mature about them than Snape. And I agree that hatred can serve as a powerful defence mechanism against feelings of guilt. Once you're locked into this extreme tunnel vision of a person, you're often unwilling to acknowledge -any- evidence that might upset your view. No wonder Snape would never forgive James for saving his life.


Wisey - Aug 18, 2005 2:42 am (#2432 of 2980)
What if, after being bullied by James & Co at school for 7 years, Snape joined LV simply because he was the biggest bully on the block. Once he was in, he realised it was a huge mistake and bl