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Mona Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Solitaire - Jun 10, 2008 6:14 pm (#2391 of 2617)
Well, the Marauders were certainly using their nicks in Snape's Worst Memory, and Snape seems to have been close enough to hear them. I assumed that is why he called Remus when he found the parchment (Marauders Map) with the four nicknames on it. In retrospect, perhaps Snape felt that Remus, as a friend of James and Lily (and also as someone Harry trusted), would be more likely to make Harry see the danger of running around in Hogsmeade and elsewhere. And Remus does exactly that in a way that has far more impact than anything thus far has done, for he appeals to Harry's heart.
Solitaire
Quinn Crockett - Jun 10, 2008 8:25 pm (#2392 of 2617)
Edited Jun 10, 2008 9:27 pm
Snape's accusation that Harry got the map "... directly from the manufacturers" seems a pretty strong indication that he knew all about the nicknames the foursome called each other. He calls Lupin immediately, and he even seems to be accusing Lupin of giving it to Harry. But these nicknames are not an automatic give-away to the nocturnal doings of the Marauders. Lots of people have nicknames at school.
I agree that Sirius is arrogant. He and Snape are actually quite similar in my opinion. But at least in Sirius's case his arrested development can be easily attributed to something outside of his control. Personally, I can understand the unfettered rage he must have had toward Peter, who had destroyed his life in every possible way short of actually killing Sirius outright.
ETA: Great points, Mona. I agree. About Lupin, he does have his own reasons to want to see Peter dead. And he and Sirius had each believed they had been betrayed by the other. They were overjoyed to be reunited and avenge Lily and (especially) James.
Pesky, that could very well be. I could see that, actually.
mona amon - Jun 10, 2008 9:14 pm (#2393 of 2617)
Yes, I can understand Sirius wanting to kill Peter with his own hand. But Lupin's reaction seems a little out of character to me. As for Snape, there seems to be no strong emotion against Peter, contempt, but no hatred. This leads me to conclude that his demented rage against Sirius (he was almost as pleased as Peeves that Sirius was going to get the Dementor's Kiss) was more about old school grudges than about Sirius's (apparent) betrayal of the Potters.
PeskyPixie - Jun 10, 2008 9:18 pm (#2394 of 2617)
"This leads me to conclude that [Snape's] demented rage against Sirius ... was more about old school grudges than about Sirius's (apparant) betrayal of the Potters." -mona
Ooh, does this mean that deep within himself, he really does blame himself more than Sirius and James for Lily's death?
mona amon - Jun 10, 2008 9:41 pm (#2395 of 2617)
Hmm...no evidence that he does. Wish we were given at least a few direct glimpses into his mind! I get the feeling he blames James for his failure to keep Lily safe more than anyone else, "too arrogant to believe he may be mistaken in his friends". This feeling would not have changed even after the revelation of Peter as the real betrayer, and it must have been satisfying to Snape at some level, a sort of proof to him that James was not a good husband for Lily.
Maybe he does blame himself as you say, 'deep within', but it's way too deep to be of any use. If he could have faced his guilt openly, there would also have been a chance of forgiving himself and moving on.
(Edited)
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 12:46 am (#2396 of 2617)
Ooh, does this mean that deep within himself, he really does blame himself more than Sirius and James for Lily's death? (Pesky)
Hmm...no evidence that he does. (Mona)
No evidence... but it may be so. Remember after Sirius's death how ready Harry was to blame Snape? It seems very much he could blame himself as well but Sirius's death is such a blow to him in itself that he could not bear to think much about what he should have done otherwise. It is a defence mechanism to try to put the blame on Snape.
Snape not feeling vengeance for Peter: On the one hand he may have despised Peter originally much more than Sirius. He certainly despises him when we see them together. (In comparison, Sirius would be a "worthy" enemy, while Peter would not.) Snape does have a certain pride, so he may not stoop as low as considering Peter an "equal" enemy. On the other hand, by he time Snape meets Peter again, the Dark Lord has come back. His work for the Order and against LV is too important to risk the success for taking revenge on Peter. How could he, anyway? He cannot attack him in a fight or duel (having to pretend they are on the same side) and Snape is not a murderer, who would just poison someone or do something similar.
But what I find the most important difference is that then Snape really has something more important and more meaningful to do. Once Voldemort is back and he has to protect Harry, the development of Snape's personality starts accelerating, I think. Waiting for LV to return, as DD predicted, may be in a way worse and more nerve-wracking than already doing his job as a spy, seeing that he can do it, having a meaningful purpose in his life (at a day to day level at least) and being able to prove himself. (It is like Harry's experience with the Hungarian Horntail.) In the latter, dangerous situation it is easier to distinguish between what is really important and what is not and Snape becomes more disciplined, as a soldier in war must be, and his guilt, his emotions etc. can perhaps be handled better because he can do something about them. (I am not surprised that Peter becomes almost insignificant.) Then very soon, Snape learns about DD's impending death and this "sword of Damocles", as someone (Quinn?) mentioned, puts things again into a new perspective.
In retrospect, perhaps Snape felt that Remus, as a friend of James and Lily (and also as someone Harry trusted), would be more likely to make Harry see the danger of running around in Hogsmeade and elsewhere. And Remus does exactly that in a way that has far more impact than anything thus far has done, for he appeals to Harry's heart.
It is a very interesting situation because if we read carefully, we find Snape and Lupin are telling Harry the same "message": "You must not sneak out of the castle because you are in great danger." However, the codes are very different. Snape tells Harry off for foolishly risking his life and Harry does not get the message at all, while Lupin does appeal to his heart and that he understands. But: while it is Lupin who manages to make Harry understand the message, it is Snape who discovers he is sneaking out (and who also suspects he would before Harry does it) and he is the first one to realize that Harry needs to be spoken to and that gives Lupin the chance to talk to Harry as well. It seems both are necessary for the protection of Harry: Snape's untiring (constant, LOL) vigilance and Lupin's ability to have an influence on Harry.
Dryleaves - Jun 11, 2008 12:49 am (#2397 of 2617)
This leads me to conclude that his demented rage against Sirius (he was almost as pleased as Peeves that Sirius was going to get the Dementor's Kiss) was more about old school grudges than about Sirius's (apparent) betrayal of the Potters. (mona amon)
I think the school grudge makes him very prone to believe that Sirius is the traitor. Sirius is already guilty to him, so he projects all guilt in the world on him, maybe also his own. Once the emotions in Snape start to come to the surface I think it is almost impossible for him to tell them apart from each other, and everything is expressed through this demented rage.
mona amon - Jun 11, 2008 1:31 am (#2398 of 2617)
Dryleaves, this is kind of what I wanted to say, but couldn't quite manage it. You've said it very well.
He cannot attack him in a fight or duel (having to pretend they are on the same side) and Snape is not a murderer, who would just poison someone or do something similar. (Julia)
Oh dear Julia, I wasn't finding fault with Severus for not taking revenge on Peter. It's just that there is such a contrast in his attitude towards Sirius when he thinks he is the betrayer and his attitude towards Wormtail when he knows he's the betrayer. (Demented rage and hatred for the former, cool contempt for the latter). And I don't think it can be adequately explained by saying that Severus grows up a bit after the reappearance of Voldemort. Snape's hatred of Sirius does not change at all even though he now has an important job to do and a purpose in life. Nothing, not the fact that he did not betray Lily after all, nor the fact that Sirius spent twelve years in Azkaban for a crime he did not commit, nor even that he is now dead and gone, can make Snape let go of the grudge he bears against Sirius. Of course Sirius's own attitude does not help. He is every bit as immature as Severus in this feud, not expressing the least bit of regret about almost getting him killed or anything. But we're talking about Snape here, and I doubt it would have helped if Sirius had tried to apologise. Lupin tries to be nice to him, but Severus does not unbend.
No evidence... but it may be so. Remember after Sirius's death how ready Harry was to blame Snape? It seems very much he could blame himself as well but Sirius's death is such a blow to him in itself that he could not bear to think much about what he should have done otherwise. It is a defence mechanism to try to put the blame on Snape.
But Harry gets over that very quickly. At the end of OOTP we see him blaming Snape, but by the beginning of HBP ie. two months later, we see him blaming no one but himself.
Sirius would be a "worthy" enemy, while Peter would not.
That's the way I see it as well. He never seems to hate him as much as the other Marauders because he doesn't seem to think it worthwhile to waste his emotions on something as contemptible as Wormtail.
(Edited)
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 1:44 am (#2399 of 2617)
Snape's hatred of Sirius does not change at all even though he now has an important job to do and a purpose in life. Nothing, not the fact that he did not betray Lily after all, nor the fact that Sirius spent twelve years in Azkaban for a crime he did not commit, nor even that he is now dead and gone, can make Snape let go of the grudge he bears against Sirius. (Mona)
His feelings do not change and neither do those of Sirius but Snape's behaviour does change. He tries to put up with Sirius and contents himself with some sarcastic remarks while Sirius gives as good as he gets. When they almost duel, it Sirius who starts it, not Snape. Finally, when he gets Harry's message that Sirius may be in danger, he hurries to check what is happening. It seems, for all his grudge, he would not let Sirius die. So his behaviour towards him changes. Now, similarly, he may feel anything towards Peter (how could we know?), still he does not let his "grudge" or hatred or whatever it is interfere with the important things that he does.
But Harry gets over that very quickly.
He does maybe. Yet, when he sees Snape again, his hatred becomes as strong as if he still blamed Snape and is determined to think that Snape cannot be trusted. Why? Personally, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for another death... (Snape Victorious) It is one of Harry's worst moments, if not the worst, IMO, and ironically it is indeed a death that makes Snape lose the DADA job at the end of the school-year, Dumbledore's.
Snape does not see Sirius after the Potters' death. He sees him next in the Shack for the first time. It is not just Sirius that returns then but everything that Snape connects him to (prank and betrayal and James Potter.) That may explain why his "blaming Sirius" moment comes so late. Harry sees Snape after Sirius's death and he may start blaming himself during the holiday, yet his hatred returns when he sees Snape again and appears to be much stronger than before Sirius's death, which suggests that Harry is still trying to blame Snape.
mona amon - Jun 11, 2008 2:08 am (#2400 of 2617)
But Julia, I am talking about feelings, not behaviour. Behaviour will of course have to be kept in check, in accordace with Dumbledore's wishes in the case of Sirius, and his double agent role in the case of Wormtail. But the feelings are there, in the scene between him and Sirius where they end up with their wands pointed at each other's faces, and when he taunts Harry about him during the detentions in HBP. There is only one scene with Wormtail, at Spinner's End. I do not think Voldy would find fault with him for hating Wormtail. I think he'd have his full sympathy. And Snape shows his dislike for him by bossing him around and treating him like a house-elf, but there are no strong emotions there. JKR could easily have written that into the scene if she had wanted to.
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 2:42 am (#2401 of 2617)
Edited Jun 11, 2008 3:34 am
I do not think Voldy would find fault with him for hating Wormtail. I think he'd have his full sympathy. And Snape shows his dislike for him by bossing him around and treating him like a house-elf, but there are no strong emotions there. JKR could easily have written that into the scene if she had wanted to.
I don't understand why and how Voldy would sympathize with Snape's hatred of Peter? When we see Snape show his dislike towards Wormtail, he has guests. He can no more start a scene in front of them than he and Sirius could start duelling with the Weasley family arriving.
But now I am beginning to forget what it is we are talking about. I think my original point was why Sirius as the "traitor" is different from Peter-the-traitor. But maybe there is not much difference as far as feelings go (with the exception that Snape has other things against Sirius as well), only as regards the situation and, as a consequence, behaviour. Later, when Sirius is known to be no traitor, Snape does not consider him a traitor any more, though his school grudge (prank and all) remains, so he still dislikes him but he does not want to kill Sirius or even let him be killed any more, as he did before and he certainly does not vent his own guilt on him (any more). It is an important difference, isn't it? (Snape seems to be able to see the difference between Sirius-of-the-Prank and Sirius-Who-Betrayed-Lily.)
As for Wormtail, I do think Snape has found more important things to do by then than anything that might concern Wormtail; and by working against Voldy, he can do much more about his guilt than by simply projecting it onto someone else (which was another point made about Sirius in the Shack).
Dryleaves - Jun 11, 2008 4:22 am (#2402 of 2617)
As it seems, at least, don't Harry and Snape react rather similarly towards Sirius respectively Peter? Towards Sirius they both show a burning hatred. Harry wants to kill Sirius himself, even if he has no personal memories of him. When Peter is revealed to be the real traitor, right before Harry's eyes, his reaction is not the same hatred that makes him want to kill Sirius with his own hands, but disgust and contempt. The result of the betrayal is the same whoever committed it, but Sirius and Peter seem to evoke different feelings in people.
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 4:29 am (#2403 of 2617)
Good point, Dryleaves. Everybody seems to be disgusted with Peter, even Voldemort. (Perhaps it is partly the knowledge that Peter lived 12 years as a rat.)
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2008 6:02 am (#2404 of 2617)
Snape's hatred of Sirius being so much more volatile than Peter makes sense to me.
Snape for a long time thought that Sirius was the betrayer of the Potters. Later he discovers Peter was the betrayer. A reason to hate both at various times, right?
But that's not the only reasons to hate Sirius.
In Snape's view, even without Lily's death, hatred of Sirius wasn't just for some "schoolboy grudge" but the hatred one might have of one's would-be murderer. Snape believed Sirius actively attempted to murder him.
And remember when Snape was listening outside the door of the Shrieking Shack? What did he hear Sirius say about the Prank? Just as Lupin said that the prank almost got Snape killed, he heard Sirius say that Snape deserved it. So it appears, in Snape's view, that not only did teenage Sirius try to kill him, adult Sirius thinks it was a perfectly good idea to try to kill Snape.
Peter did not try to kill Snape, as far as we know, so that's one less reason to hate Peter so vehemently.
Further, even after Snape learned, presumably from DD, that Sirius wasn't really the betrayer of the Potters, what might he also have learned? If he learned the whole story that Sirius related, then he learned that it was Sirius' idea to use Pettigrew. So just as Snape was, years later, still furious at James for neglecting the info that one of his friends could be a traitor, and trusting what turned out to be a betrayer, leading to Lily's death, so Snape could continue to hate Sirius -- not as the traitor, but like James, an arrogant guy who wouldn't believe that someone might betray them and actually was the one to convince James to use the traitor, Peter.
Net result?
Snape's reasons for hating Peter are: the weak, cowardly guy who defected to Voldemort and sold out Lily, and one of the Marauders who bullied Snape in school.
Reasons to hate Sirius? His would-be murderer who still thinks murdering Snape a good idea. Arrogant jerk who convinced James to use the cowardly Peter as a secret keeper leading to Lily's death. The guy who continues to insult him and antagonize him.
It's also important that we see Snape interact with Sirius at the moment of first seeing him after Lily's death. At that moment, Snape has the upper hand and thinks he's about to take Sirius into custody.
We don't get to see the first time Snape saw Peter after discovering Peter was the traitor. And even if we had seen the scene, it would have been in the graveyard with Voldemort, so naturally Snape couldn't show much reaction to Peter. And following that, there must have been numerous times that Snape had to be around Peter and Voldemort, prior to Spinners End, where he had to hide his feelings about Peter. When we finally see Snape with Peter, it must be after they've met and interacted many many times off the page. At that point, Snape is mainly just being insulting of Peter. But what more can he do other than insult him and verbally push him around?
mona amon - Jun 11, 2008 10:09 am (#2405 of 2617)
But now I am beginning to forget what it is we are talking about. (Julia)
Lol, that often happens, doesn't it. I was trying to show that Snape's demented rage with Sirius seems to have more to do with his earlier grudges against Sirius than with Sirius's apparent role as Lily's betrayer.
I'm sure that if it had been Wormtail instead of Sirius that Snape was hunting down at the end of POA, he would have been a lot more calm and controlled when he finally got him cornered.
I was also pointing out that he seems to hate Wormtail, the betrayer of Lily, much less than he hates Sirius, childhood enemy. Of course, as has been pointed out by Wynnleaf, the situation at Spinners End is very different from the situation at the end of POA, but still, if the author had wanted to show us feelings of hatred for Wormtail, she could have managed it. "He shot him a look of intense loathing" or something like that (I'm sure Jo would have said it loads better ) slipped in somewhere would have been more than enough. But, since she shows us only contempt for Wormtail on Snape's part, I assume that is the main emotion he feels towards him.
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 10:30 am (#2406 of 2617)
But, since she shows us only contempt for Wormtail on Snape's part, I assume that is the main emotion he feels towards him. (Mona)
I agree with that! OK, Snape had more reason to hate Sirius and this hatred was nurtured over many years but I still think it counts than at the end of PoA, Snape's own guilt and despair coloured his feelings much more than later in the case of Wormtail, because he had other things to do about his guilt and otherwise and in that context the actual petty betrayer was not important any more.
When Snape saw Peter the first time in the graveyard (or maybe somewhere else if LV did not spend the whole night in the graveyard, with the Riddle House close at hand), he was occlumensing as hard as he could and had no time to even think of what he felt towards Peter. That may well have happened a couple of other times as well, but Snape probably had the opportunity (over time) to see how insignificant Peter, as an enemy, was.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 11, 2008 11:05 am (#2407 of 2617)
Harry sees Snape after Sirius's death and he may start blaming himself during the holiday, yet his hatred returns when he sees Snape again and appears to be much stronger than before Sirius's death, which suggests that Harry is still trying to blame Snape. - Julia
I have to disagree there, Julia. I think Harry is pretty resolute at this point. But when he sees Snape again for the first time, it is because Snape (and not for the first time) takes full advantage of his position of power. He comes to fetch Harry specifically for the few moments he will have alone with Harry to taunt him. Whose extant hatred wouldn't be brought to a boil in that situation?
Later, when Sirius is known to be no traitor, Snape does not consider him a traitor any more, though his school grudge (prank and all) remains, so he still dislikes him but he does not want to kill Sirius or even let him be killed any more, as he did before and he certainly does not vent his own guilt on him (any more). It is an important difference, isn't it? (Snape seems to be able to see the difference between Sirius-of-the-Prank and Sirius-Who-Betrayed-Lily.) - Julia
I'm afraid I just don't see this. While he may no longer see Sirius as a traitor in the technical sense, I think Snape certainly does continue to blame Sirius for Lily's death. I agree with Mona that Snape's feelings toward Sirius don't ever change, though he does (at Dumbledore's insistence) try to keep his behavior in check. Even after Sirius is killed, Snape happily berates him in absentia right along with James during the final detention with Harry.
In fairness though, Sirius is just as emotionally stunted (though it's understandable) and he is equally unable to let go of his own school rivalry with Snape.
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2008 1:19 pm (#2408 of 2617)
While he may no longer see Sirius as a traitor in the technical sense, I think Snape certainly does continue to blame Sirius for Lily's death. (Quinn)
My guess is this is correct. After all, if in POA Snape blamed James for trusting his friends, even with a warning (probably Snape's warning) that someone close to the Potters was betraying them, one would expect him to blame Sirius for the same thing. It's highly probable that Dumbledore would have had to relate Sirius' story of what really happened to Snape, in order to get Snape to however grudgingly accept working with Sirius. But in that story, Sirius admits that it was him that convinced James to use Peter as Secret Keeper. So yes, I'd imagine Snape continued to blame Sirius, just in a different way.
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 1:25 pm (#2409 of 2617)
But when he sees Snape again for the first time, it is because Snape (and not for the first time) takes full advantage of his position of power. He comes to fetch Harry specifically for the few moments he will have alone with Harry to taunt him. Whose extant hatred wouldn't be brought to a boil in that situation? (Quinn)
OK. Snape taunts him but to me it seems that Harry's reaction to Snape's taunting is much stronger than it was before he started to blame him for Sirius's death. (Wishing Snape dead and insisting that Snape is not to be trusted in the fight against Voldemort.) There is something very similar happening to Snape at the Shack. If Harry's extant hatred can be brought to a boil by Snape's behaviour even when he does not any more think that Snape is responsible for Sirius's death or for anything else but nasty behaviour, then why is it surprising that Snape's extant hatred for Sirius also comes to a boil when he sees him for the first time after so many years, when he still has a reason to think that Sirius is responsible for Lily's death and when he has just heard that Sirius thinks he (Snape) deserved to have been almost fed to a werewolf?
While he may no longer see Sirius as a traitor in the technical sense, I think Snape certainly does continue to blame Sirius for Lily's death. (Quinn)
Yes, that is so. But it is still not the same as being the traitor.
... though he does (at Dumbledore's insistence) try to keep his behavior in check.
I think Snape also accepts that Sirius is another order member even if they, personally, hate each other. When they quarrell and talk about "dogs", for example, Snape does not only taunt Sirius but also tells him important information concerning Sirius's safety, i.e., that Lucius Malfoy recognized him. Later, when Harry thinks that Sirius is in danger, Snape hurries to find out the truth, probably with the purpose of alerting the Order or DD or doing something else if he finds that Sirius is really captured. At the moment he is not being supervised by DD and he only got a cryptic message from Harry. Yet, he takes the question of Sirius's safety ... well, seriously. This is a bit more than just trying to keep his behaviour in check. No, I did not mean that he likes Sirius now (and Sirius does not even grant Snape, as a fellow Order member, as much as basic civility when they are in his house). I only said even though Snape still dislikes (hates) Sirius because of the old grudge, because of Sirius's present behaviour and, as you say, because of his stupidity that led to Lily's death, he is not vindictive (at least not seriously) any more and the difference is that technically, if you like, he does not think any more that Sirius is the one who betrayed Lily. Which is to say that earlier his vindictive behaviour was probably not only or not in the first place influenced by the Prank and similar things but by the assumption that Sirius had betrayed Lily. If he had only wanted to take revenge for the Prank, he would have remained just as actively vindictive even when both of them were Order members. As far as I remember that was the point I originally wanted to make.
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 1:52 pm (#2410 of 2617)
Who thinks that Snape (knowing Sirius's nature, both strengths and weaknesses) did attempt to push Sirius's buttons in the hopes that he would try something stupid and risk getting arrested, killed, or worse, Kissed?
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2008 3:45 pm (#2411 of 2617)
Who thinks that Snape (knowing Sirius's nature, both strengths and weaknesses) did attempt to push Sirius's buttons in the hopes that he would try something stupid and risk getting arrested, killed, or worse, Kissed? (Pesky)
I don't think Snape needed any reason at all. He hated Sirius and decided to say insulting things. In implying that Sirius was a coward for staying at Grimmauld Place, Snape took advantage of Dumbledore's orders that Sirius stay put. Snape wasn't just saying "you're a coward if you don't get out and do something." He was saying, "you exposed yourself to the public at the train station so that you'd have an excuse to hide out at home." Of course, that's not true. However, Snape probably did think Sirius' reckless action of going to the train station was Really Stupid and relished the opportunity to get a dig in at Sirius over the whole thing.
However, we don't know who started all of those verbal altercations at Grimmauld Place. The only one we get to see occurs at Christmas and it starts with Sirius intentionally pushing Snape's buttons with the notion that Snape telling Harry to sit down for a talk was the same as giving orders in Sirius' home and therefore Snape shouldn't do that. So the only incident we actually see is started by Sirius. If Sirius tended to start most of the altercations, then Snape's implications of cowardliness were retaliation to Sirius' rudeness, not some plan to get Sirius in trouble.
Solitaire - Jun 11, 2008 3:48 pm (#2412 of 2617)
Face it ... Snape and Sirius are still 17 years old when they're in the same room!
Quinn Crockett - Jun 11, 2008 5:02 pm (#2413 of 2617)
I'm sorry, Julia. You kind of lost me. In sum, I think Snape is vindictive toward Sirius because of their past and I think he does blame Sirius for Lily's death, though not necessarily from any active treachery. I'm having a hard time understanding from your post whether or not you agree (I think not).
But I agree with Wynnleaf in that I don't think Snape intentionally taunted Sirius for the specific purpose of inciting Sirius to get himself killed, however I imagine Snape viewed this as something of a bonus. Actually, it's interesting that Bellatrix says essentially the same thing to Snape about remaining safely behind at Hogwarts while she and the other Death Eaters were out maiming and plundering for the Cause.
Incidentally, think I would also have cautioned Snape about his tone had he been in my house and spoken to one of my young guests as if he were still in the classroom.
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 5:26 pm (#2414 of 2617)
All Snape says is, "Sit down, Potter." What's wrong with that? Also, I was brought up to respect my teachers. My parents dealt with problem teachers in private (without my knowledge) so I would not develop the habit of disrespecting my teachers and thus, lose out on all they had to teach. And yes, teachers command a certain respect whether in class or not. A teacher doesn't become a regular buddy once class is out, especially at that age. Let's not forget that Snape is at 12GP as a teacher, not Uncle Sev (***snickers uncontrollably***). Why does he have to bend backwards to break the norms of an out of class teacher-student relationship?
Quinn Crockett - Jun 11, 2008 6:29 pm (#2415 of 2617)
Easy, tiger. I didn't say anything about "bending over backwards". As always, it's not what a person says but how they say it.
All Snape says is, "Sit down, Potter." What's wrong with that?
And all Sirius says is, "You know, I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house you see." I find this to be a perfectly reasonable request (especially for Sirius).
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 7:22 pm (#2416 of 2617)
"Easy, tiger."
'... all Sirius says is, "You know, I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house you see."'
It's not what a person says but how they say it.
I happen to find Sirius's comment to be a very rude thing for a host to say to a guest. I've had people I don't like over at my house, and they've been far more obnoxious than, "Sit down, Potter," and I've never felt that as a host I have the right to remind a guest that they are on my property and thus, I give orders. That's just rude.
Snape just tells Harry to have a seat in his regular curt manner. Sirius sets the confrontational meeting with his insulting comment. A teacher may very well tell his student to sit down, but it is highly disrespectful for a guardian to overrule a teacher in front of his student. That sets a very bad example.
This scene really has nothing to do with Harry. It's a good old fashioned Marauder vs. Snape confrontation and Sirius instigates it ... it's a shame that Snape doesn't have the sense to ignore Sirius and plainly deliver his message from Dumbledore and get out of there. It's especially shameful that these two adults (one a guardian and the other a teacher) can not restrain themselves and make this scene in front of Harry.
Archivist's note: I took the liberty of inserting the smiley, which did not get copied ~ Mona
Quinn Crockett - Jun 11, 2008 9:01 pm (#2417 of 2617)
Ha ha! Pesky, what is funny about this little scene is that these two men absolutely hate each other but they are both so very similar. Each is so quick to assume the other is "starting something" but I think that's partly because each of them is doing just that! As you point out, it takes two to tango, as the saying goes.
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 10:12 pm (#2418 of 2617)
Right, the enmity between Severus and Sirius is so strong that both are on the defensive and ready to accuse the other of starting a confrontation. Therefore, perhaps both are prepared to be snappy ASAP and blame the other for instigating?
mona amon - Jun 12, 2008 12:53 am (#2419 of 2617)
Snape had more reason to hate Sirius and this hatred was nurtured over many years but I still think it counts than at the end of PoA, Snape's own guilt and despair coloured his feelings much more than later in the case of Wormtail, because he had other things to do about his guilt and otherwise and in that context the actual petty betrayer was not important any more. (Julia)
Actually he had more reason to hate Wormtail. Whatever Sirius may have done to him, it was Wormtail who actually betrayed, and therefore most directly brought about, the death of Lily. I do not get the feeling that his reactions are anything to do with guilt. People just react and respond to different people in different ways. Vindictive feelings for one person and lack of vindictive feelings for another do not always coincide with the amount of harm that each person has done. I found it all very interesting, and very realistic.
Which is to say that earlier his vindictive behaviour was probably not only or not in the first place influenced by the Prank and similar things but by the assumption that Sirius had betrayed Lily. If he had only wanted to take revenge for the Prank, he would have remained just as actively vindictive even when both of them were Order members.
The thing is he no longer has a reason or excuse to do him any harm. He is not the type to harm another just because he hates him. That is why he was so inordinately pleased to have a reason to catch Sirius and hand him over to justice, which he knew was the Dementor's Kiss. I won't be surprised if he was very disappointed to discover that Sirius was not the betrayer. In other words, I think vindictive feelings are there. But he does not actually act on them because he does not have an excuse for it.
Dryleaves - Jun 12, 2008 1:37 am (#2420 of 2617)
He [Sirius] and Snape are actually quite similar in my opinion. But at least in Sirius's case his arrested development can be easily attributed to something outside of his control. (Quinn)
I agree that they are very similar in all their differences. I suppose you mean that Sirius's arrested development is more understandable because he spent all those years in Azkaban, fighting for his survival and sanity among the dementors, while Snape led a rather comfortable life, teaching at Hogwarts, and only chose to be his own dementor.
Still, I am not sure Snape's situation is less understandable. Sirius survives because he knows he is innocent, he has this one, unhappy thought the dementors cannot take away from him that keeps him sane. (And I don't mean to say that this would make things any easier for Sirius!) I know you can debate Snape's sense of guilt, but I believe he feels guilty, and he has promised to protect Lily's son when Voldemort comes back. I think this promise holds him back, as he can only wait all those years before Harry comes to Hogwarts, before he can start doing anything for Lily. I think Snape changes from being a DE to being DD's man before that, but I think those teenage memories are so closely related to everything that has happened that it is hard for him to process them separately and probably he just chooses to push them away. Being at Hogwarts, a place full of teenagers, the same environment where all those things happened, is not, I imagine, the best strategy to get perspective of your own youth. Not when you return as soon as Snape does.
I think he is forced to process his memories after DD's death, when he has to establish a contact and a confidence with Harry, and then he does so. When Harry watches Snape's worst memory in the pensieve Snape is not at all ready for this. But the memories he gives to Harry before he dies show him in situations were he is very vulnerable, and I think he also opens up to Harry in a similar way when he sends the silver doe patronus to him. Now he is ready. So I don't think it was that easy for him to start a therapeutical journey before Harry was actually there under his nose and he could do something. And then it took its time.
ETA: The thing is he no longer has a reason or excuse to do him any harm. He is not the type to harm another just because he hates him. That is why he was so inordinately pleased to have a reason to catch Sirius and hand him over to justice, which he knew was the Dementor's Kiss. I won't be surprised if he was very disappointed to discover that Sirius was not the betrayer. In other words, I think vindictive feelings are there. But he does not actually act on them because he does not have an excuse for it. (Mona amon)
This is pretty much how I imagined the situation. I think he was disappointed. Related to the prank, we must remember that Snape was convinced that Sirius et al. were attempting to kill him, but they got away with it. This must be a rather horrible experience for Snape, as the fact that the whole thing was silenced could say something about how much his life was worth. He wanted to catch Sirius, but it was important to have a legitimate reason for it. Maybe it is wanting justice instead of revenge, or rather mingling these to concepts with each other.
Julia H. - Jun 12, 2008 2:03 am (#2421 of 2617)
Edited Jun 12, 2008 2:56 am
I'm sorry, Julia. You kind of lost me. In sum, I think Snape is vindictive toward Sirius because of their past and I think he does blame Sirius for Lily's death, though not necessarily from any active treachery. I'm having a hard time understanding from your post whether or not you agree (I think not). (Quinn)
How should I say it?
1) I also think that Snape blames Sirius for Lily's death, though definitely not from any active treachery. He knows now that the traitor was Peter. He blames Sirius for arrogance or stupidity or for ignoring sensible advice and so causing Lily's death. He also hates him because of their old enmity.
2) Maybe it is the word "vindictive" that we use differently. I simply tried to point out the difference between Snape's vindictiveness at the end of PoA, where he believes that Sirius is not only his enemy from school and not only someone who inadvertently caused the Potters' death but also the active traitor, and his behaviour in OOTP, where he still thinks that Sirius is his childhood and present enemy, knows to what extent Sirius is responsible for Lily's death and properly hates him but does not think any more that he is the active traitor. At the end of PoA, he is ready to hand over Sirius to the dementors. In OOTP, for all their arguments and enmity, when it comes to the question whether Sirius is in danger or not, he does not behave in a vindictive way but tries to help as he should help a fellow Order member. Yes, he hates him but he does not want him to be dead or to get back to Azkaban. That is merely the difference that I am trying to point out.
Why? The original question which started this part of the discussion was whether Snape's mad rage at the end of PoA is mainly due to the Prank and their old enmity (as the first-time reader is led to think) or at least as much to the belief that Sirius was the active traitor.
All I wanted to say was that it seems at the end of PoA, Snape's mad rage was at least in part due to the fact that he believed Sirius to be the active traitor. I think the fact that he could change his attitude to Sirius to some extent in OOTP (meaning: still hating him but not really trying to harm him in any serious way, not even by neglecting his safety) seems to support the idea that at the end of PoA, the main reason for his vindictiveness was believing Sirius to be the active traitor. If he had wanted to kill him in the first place because of the prank, for example, that would not have changed later, would it?
I hope I managed to be clear this time...
Even if Snape still blames Sirius for causing Lily's death, it is not the same as blaming him for betraying Lily. Perhaps in OOTP, he does see the similarity between Sirius and himself. I don't mean the similarity of their tendencies to jump down each other's throat (which certainly exists) but how they are both responsible for the Potters' death. Snape was at a time Lily's best friend, Sirius was James's best friend. Snape inadvertently and not caring for the possible consequences of his actions, set Voldemort on the Potters. Sirius inadvertently and carelessly not paying attention to better advice and warning, made it possible for Peter to betray the Potters. Perhaps what Snape hates most of all in Sirius (just an idea) is this "mirror image" of his guilt concerning the Potters' death. (Of course, what Snape did was much worse, from an ethical point of view, but he also worked hard to put it right and he failed because of Sirius's idea and Peter's betrayal. Actually it took quite a few friends to enable LV to kill the Potters.)
On other topics: I agree with Solitaire that Snape and Sirius are 17 when they are in the same room. I don't think Snape wants to taunt Sirius until he does something dangerous and stupid, only that he cannot hold his tongue once they have started. The same is true of Sirius. In the kitchen scene, Sirius seems to be the one who starts the argument. Sit down, Potter is not the same as telling Harry to make him a cup of coffee. The tone was just the ordinary school tone, I guess. Sirius, however, is the host, and it is very rude to point out to a guest "It is may house" but Sirius has no justifiable reason to do it anyway. Once Sirius starts, Snape is ready to respond in a similar tone. Later, it is Sirius who holds his wand ready to fight first. They do behave like teenagers.
Actually he had more reason to hate Wormtail. Whatever Sirius may have done to him, it was Wormtail who actually betrayed, and therefore most directly brought about, the death of Lily. (Mona)
When I said Snape had more reason to hate Sirius than Wormtail, I meant he had more reason to hate Sirius first when he thought Sirius was the traitor than later to hate Wormtail when he knew Wormtail was the traitor. There is a time difference here. I simply meant besides hating Sirius for being the traitor, he also hated him for other reasons. I agree when he already knew Wormtail was the traitor, he had more reason to hate traitor-Wormtail than non-traitor-Sirius but he probably did not hate Wormtail as much now as earlier he hated Sirius (when he thought Sirius was the traitor). (But then Wormtail was too disgusting to evoke strong feelings other than contempt.)
wynnleaf - Jun 12, 2008 6:08 am (#2422 of 2617)
Well put, Julia. There has to be something driving Snape's anger and active work to send Sirius to Azkaban which is not there later in OOTP where he only has some verbal sparring and actively tries to convince Sirius not to go to the Ministry and get captured.
Being at Hogwarts, a place full of teenagers, the same environment where all those things happened, is not, I imagine, the best strategy to get perspective of your own youth. (Dryleaves)
While Sirius was in Azkaban for 12 years, and many put that down as an excuse for his arrested development, I can't see why he would be arrested at age 17 or so, rather than his early 20's when he went to Azkaban. In other words, I think the Sirius we see in OOTP reflects how he was when he went into Azkaban, which wasn't as a teenager, but a bit older. If that's true, then at 21 or 22, Sirius was already and "arrested development" teenager. His comments in POA that Snape deserved the Prank, in my opinion reveal that he always thought that, even up to his going to Azkaban in his twenties. If Sirius had changed his opinion of the Prank (which occurred when he was about 16), a year or two or three or four or five years later, and realized how Very Wrong and dangerous it was not only to Snape, but to Lupin, I don't think his some of his first comments about Snape, having not even seen him for years, would be that he deserved it.
As for Snape and arrested development, I think Dryleaves makes good points. In addition to the guilt and stress that Snape dealt with, I think it's important to realize that Snape actually lived in a place conducive to his arrested development. He left school at about 18, spent about 3 years doing something else including being a DE, and then at about age 21 went back to Hogwarts, where all of his supposed "peers" were generations older than him and the same teachers who had taught him, and many of his students had known him in school. While he's got Spinners End, he appears to spend his holidays at the school. And he doesn't seem to have many other friends outside of school other than perhaps the Malfoys. So the idea that he tends to use many of the same attitudes, manners etc. socially as he always did is hardly surprising.
Julia H. - Jun 12, 2008 8:06 am (#2423 of 2617)
As for Snape and arrested development, I think Dryleaves makes good points. In addition to the guilt and stress that Snape dealt with, I think it's important to realize that Snape actually lived in a place conducive to his arrested development. (Wynnleaf)
I agree.
...then at about age 21 went back to Hogwarts, where all of his supposed "peers" were generations older than him and the same teachers who had taught him, and many of his students had known him in school.
Wow! I have known that Snape's colleagues had been his teachers but it has never really occurred to me that among his first students, there must have been quite a few who had known him as a student but it is certainly so. It is a tough situation. I remember when I started to teach, many of my colleagues were my former teachers (the ones I took my first exams with, two who each had lost me on an excursion, one that I had been afraid of...) and had to get used to this new situation. Also, the students were just a few years younger than me but at least they had not known me before - even so it was something like a transitional period when a silly haircut was enough to make me look younger than some of my students.
For Snape, well, some of his older students had seen him and James hexing each other in the park, been perhaps witness to his worst memory, seen him being caught by Filch for rule-breaking behaviour... His colleagues must have remembered all kinds of things as well. Perhaps Snape had to be such a strict teacher to survive at all, to set the limits and draw the lines. I mean he was a Severus, no doubt, but a softer person could have had very, very hard time in this situation. He may have felt that this strict attitude worked and so he insisted on it.
On top of that, all those memories, guilt, his DE past coming to light (I guess) and so on...
mona amon - Jun 12, 2008 9:41 am (#2424 of 2617)
His comments in POA that Snape deserved the Prank, in my opinion reveal that he always thought that, even up to his going to Azkaban in his twenties. If Sirius had changed his opinion of the Prank (which occurred when he was about 16), a year or two or three or four or five years later, and realized how Very Wrong and dangerous it was not only to Snape, but to Lupin, I don't think his some of his first comments about Snape, having not even seen him for years, would be that he deserved it. (Wynnleaf)
I totally agree.
Perhaps Snape had to be such a strict teacher to survive at all, to set the limits and draw the lines. (Julia)
But Hogwarts was the only school for magic for the whole of Britain, so almost all the teachers would initially have been in the same situation as Snape. But not all of them bully the students the way he does.
At the end of PoA, he is ready to hand over Sirius to the dementors. In OOTP, for all their arguments and enmity, when it comes to the question whether Sirius is in danger or not, he does not behave in a vindictive way but tries to help as he should help a fellow Order member. Yes, he hates him but he does not want him to be dead or to get back to Azkaban. (Julia)
There has to be something driving Snape's anger and active work to send Sirius to Azkaban which is not there later in OOTP where he only has some verbal sparring and actively tries to convince Sirius not to go to the Ministry and get captured. (Wynnleaf)
Let me put my argument this way. It was because Snape thought that Sirius was the betrayer that he wanted him handed over to justice, dead, kissed, whatever. It was because of old grudges and vindictive feelings towards Sirius that he took such an insane delight in the fact that Sirius was going to be kissed or sent back to Azkaban.
Julia H. - Jun 12, 2008 10:23 am (#2425 of 2617)
But Hogwarts was the only school for magic for the whole of Britain, so almost all the teachers would initially have been in the same situation as Snape. But not all of them bully the students the way he does. (Mona)
I was not talking about bullying - that is a different question, we have discussed it amply - but being a strict teacher. This kind of thing: Snape's mere presence was usually enough to ensure a class's silence. I did not even say this was the only reason, sure, it is a question of personality in the first place, only that this strict attitude may have worked for him and that had he been a softer person, it might have been difficult for him to "survive" as a teacher in this situation. As for most other teachers: Snape is not the only strict teacher, is he? Then again, not everybody may have started their teaching career as young as Snape. In fact, I cannot remember any other 20-21-year-old Hogwarts teacher mentioned in the seven books. (Others perhaps can.) Anyway, it is not necessarily typical. Apart from that, Snape also had his recent past to cope with.
It was because Snape thought that Sirius was the betrayer that he wanted him handed over to justice, dead, kissed, whatever. It was because of old grudges and vindictive feelings towards Sirius that he took such an insane delight in the fact that Sirius was going to be kissed or sent back to Azkaban. (Mona)
I see, this is clear now. But I still think that his belief that Sirius was the traitor who betrayed Lily - on top of his old grudges - was what made him so mad.
PeskyPixie - Jun 12, 2008 10:33 am (#2426 of 2617)
Do we have any evidence of Snape actually bullying any of his students other than Harry and his closest pals? He's very strict, but I honestly don't remember any non-Harry moments of bullying on his behalf as a teacher.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 12, 2008 10:58 am (#2427 of 2617)
On "arrested development": Unless there is some sort of catastrophic occurrence (i.e. Dumbledore), I don't think there is any significant difference in maturity, other than physically, between 17 and 21, especially for boys. They're kind of all hopped up on testosterone at that age pretty much all the time. So I don't know that those extra couple of years Sirius had between Hogwarts and Azkaban would really have made that much of a difference to his behavior.
I think Dryleaves makes some good points about Snape being sort of automatically stuck in adolescence just by virtue of his being physically in the very environment where those memories occurred. Many of us can relate to the sort of regression we sometimes experience in certain situations when we go back to visit our parents, for example. Imagine having to experience that all the time Egad!
On Snape's Grudge: I also agree with Wynnleaf (?) that Snape's past with Sirius causes him to be vindictive toward him, but generally in only a passive way. What I mean is that while he doesn't seem to actively seek to harm Sirius, he's certainly not unhappy when Sirius is killed, for example.
Orion - Jun 12, 2008 11:53 am (#2428 of 2617)
"I remember when I started to teach, many of my colleagues were my former teachers (the ones I took my first exams with, two who each had lost me on an excursion..." (Julia) Who are you, Trevor?
mona amon - Jun 12, 2008 12:06 pm (#2429 of 2617)
LOL, Orion, I too was surprised at Julia being lost two times and by two different persons, but I was too busy with other parts of her post and forgot to comment!
Pesky, I think Snape's bullying of Neville is the only one on record.
Julia H. - Jun 12, 2008 12:50 pm (#2430 of 2617)
LOL! I hope I am not Trevor! There were only those two occasions as far as I can remember...
Pesky, I think Snape's bullying of Neville is the only one on record. (Mona)
That is the only one I could come up with too. But it can be argued that Neville belongs to the Harry-set.
Well, the Marauders were certainly using their nicks in Snape's Worst Memory, and Snape seems to have been close enough to hear them. I assumed that is why he called Remus when he found the parchment (Marauders Map) with the four nicknames on it. In retrospect, perhaps Snape felt that Remus, as a friend of James and Lily (and also as someone Harry trusted), would be more likely to make Harry see the danger of running around in Hogsmeade and elsewhere. And Remus does exactly that in a way that has far more impact than anything thus far has done, for he appeals to Harry's heart.
Solitaire
Quinn Crockett - Jun 10, 2008 8:25 pm (#2392 of 2617)
Edited Jun 10, 2008 9:27 pm
Snape's accusation that Harry got the map "... directly from the manufacturers" seems a pretty strong indication that he knew all about the nicknames the foursome called each other. He calls Lupin immediately, and he even seems to be accusing Lupin of giving it to Harry. But these nicknames are not an automatic give-away to the nocturnal doings of the Marauders. Lots of people have nicknames at school.
I agree that Sirius is arrogant. He and Snape are actually quite similar in my opinion. But at least in Sirius's case his arrested development can be easily attributed to something outside of his control. Personally, I can understand the unfettered rage he must have had toward Peter, who had destroyed his life in every possible way short of actually killing Sirius outright.
ETA: Great points, Mona. I agree. About Lupin, he does have his own reasons to want to see Peter dead. And he and Sirius had each believed they had been betrayed by the other. They were overjoyed to be reunited and avenge Lily and (especially) James.
Pesky, that could very well be. I could see that, actually.
mona amon - Jun 10, 2008 9:14 pm (#2393 of 2617)
Yes, I can understand Sirius wanting to kill Peter with his own hand. But Lupin's reaction seems a little out of character to me. As for Snape, there seems to be no strong emotion against Peter, contempt, but no hatred. This leads me to conclude that his demented rage against Sirius (he was almost as pleased as Peeves that Sirius was going to get the Dementor's Kiss) was more about old school grudges than about Sirius's (apparent) betrayal of the Potters.
PeskyPixie - Jun 10, 2008 9:18 pm (#2394 of 2617)
"This leads me to conclude that [Snape's] demented rage against Sirius ... was more about old school grudges than about Sirius's (apparant) betrayal of the Potters." -mona
Ooh, does this mean that deep within himself, he really does blame himself more than Sirius and James for Lily's death?
mona amon - Jun 10, 2008 9:41 pm (#2395 of 2617)
Hmm...no evidence that he does. Wish we were given at least a few direct glimpses into his mind! I get the feeling he blames James for his failure to keep Lily safe more than anyone else, "too arrogant to believe he may be mistaken in his friends". This feeling would not have changed even after the revelation of Peter as the real betrayer, and it must have been satisfying to Snape at some level, a sort of proof to him that James was not a good husband for Lily.
Maybe he does blame himself as you say, 'deep within', but it's way too deep to be of any use. If he could have faced his guilt openly, there would also have been a chance of forgiving himself and moving on.
(Edited)
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 12:46 am (#2396 of 2617)
Ooh, does this mean that deep within himself, he really does blame himself more than Sirius and James for Lily's death? (Pesky)
Hmm...no evidence that he does. (Mona)
No evidence... but it may be so. Remember after Sirius's death how ready Harry was to blame Snape? It seems very much he could blame himself as well but Sirius's death is such a blow to him in itself that he could not bear to think much about what he should have done otherwise. It is a defence mechanism to try to put the blame on Snape.
Snape not feeling vengeance for Peter: On the one hand he may have despised Peter originally much more than Sirius. He certainly despises him when we see them together. (In comparison, Sirius would be a "worthy" enemy, while Peter would not.) Snape does have a certain pride, so he may not stoop as low as considering Peter an "equal" enemy. On the other hand, by he time Snape meets Peter again, the Dark Lord has come back. His work for the Order and against LV is too important to risk the success for taking revenge on Peter. How could he, anyway? He cannot attack him in a fight or duel (having to pretend they are on the same side) and Snape is not a murderer, who would just poison someone or do something similar.
But what I find the most important difference is that then Snape really has something more important and more meaningful to do. Once Voldemort is back and he has to protect Harry, the development of Snape's personality starts accelerating, I think. Waiting for LV to return, as DD predicted, may be in a way worse and more nerve-wracking than already doing his job as a spy, seeing that he can do it, having a meaningful purpose in his life (at a day to day level at least) and being able to prove himself. (It is like Harry's experience with the Hungarian Horntail.) In the latter, dangerous situation it is easier to distinguish between what is really important and what is not and Snape becomes more disciplined, as a soldier in war must be, and his guilt, his emotions etc. can perhaps be handled better because he can do something about them. (I am not surprised that Peter becomes almost insignificant.) Then very soon, Snape learns about DD's impending death and this "sword of Damocles", as someone (Quinn?) mentioned, puts things again into a new perspective.
In retrospect, perhaps Snape felt that Remus, as a friend of James and Lily (and also as someone Harry trusted), would be more likely to make Harry see the danger of running around in Hogsmeade and elsewhere. And Remus does exactly that in a way that has far more impact than anything thus far has done, for he appeals to Harry's heart.
It is a very interesting situation because if we read carefully, we find Snape and Lupin are telling Harry the same "message": "You must not sneak out of the castle because you are in great danger." However, the codes are very different. Snape tells Harry off for foolishly risking his life and Harry does not get the message at all, while Lupin does appeal to his heart and that he understands. But: while it is Lupin who manages to make Harry understand the message, it is Snape who discovers he is sneaking out (and who also suspects he would before Harry does it) and he is the first one to realize that Harry needs to be spoken to and that gives Lupin the chance to talk to Harry as well. It seems both are necessary for the protection of Harry: Snape's untiring (constant, LOL) vigilance and Lupin's ability to have an influence on Harry.
Dryleaves - Jun 11, 2008 12:49 am (#2397 of 2617)
This leads me to conclude that his demented rage against Sirius (he was almost as pleased as Peeves that Sirius was going to get the Dementor's Kiss) was more about old school grudges than about Sirius's (apparent) betrayal of the Potters. (mona amon)
I think the school grudge makes him very prone to believe that Sirius is the traitor. Sirius is already guilty to him, so he projects all guilt in the world on him, maybe also his own. Once the emotions in Snape start to come to the surface I think it is almost impossible for him to tell them apart from each other, and everything is expressed through this demented rage.
mona amon - Jun 11, 2008 1:31 am (#2398 of 2617)
Dryleaves, this is kind of what I wanted to say, but couldn't quite manage it. You've said it very well.
He cannot attack him in a fight or duel (having to pretend they are on the same side) and Snape is not a murderer, who would just poison someone or do something similar. (Julia)
Oh dear Julia, I wasn't finding fault with Severus for not taking revenge on Peter. It's just that there is such a contrast in his attitude towards Sirius when he thinks he is the betrayer and his attitude towards Wormtail when he knows he's the betrayer. (Demented rage and hatred for the former, cool contempt for the latter). And I don't think it can be adequately explained by saying that Severus grows up a bit after the reappearance of Voldemort. Snape's hatred of Sirius does not change at all even though he now has an important job to do and a purpose in life. Nothing, not the fact that he did not betray Lily after all, nor the fact that Sirius spent twelve years in Azkaban for a crime he did not commit, nor even that he is now dead and gone, can make Snape let go of the grudge he bears against Sirius. Of course Sirius's own attitude does not help. He is every bit as immature as Severus in this feud, not expressing the least bit of regret about almost getting him killed or anything. But we're talking about Snape here, and I doubt it would have helped if Sirius had tried to apologise. Lupin tries to be nice to him, but Severus does not unbend.
No evidence... but it may be so. Remember after Sirius's death how ready Harry was to blame Snape? It seems very much he could blame himself as well but Sirius's death is such a blow to him in itself that he could not bear to think much about what he should have done otherwise. It is a defence mechanism to try to put the blame on Snape.
But Harry gets over that very quickly. At the end of OOTP we see him blaming Snape, but by the beginning of HBP ie. two months later, we see him blaming no one but himself.
Sirius would be a "worthy" enemy, while Peter would not.
That's the way I see it as well. He never seems to hate him as much as the other Marauders because he doesn't seem to think it worthwhile to waste his emotions on something as contemptible as Wormtail.
(Edited)
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 1:44 am (#2399 of 2617)
Snape's hatred of Sirius does not change at all even though he now has an important job to do and a purpose in life. Nothing, not the fact that he did not betray Lily after all, nor the fact that Sirius spent twelve years in Azkaban for a crime he did not commit, nor even that he is now dead and gone, can make Snape let go of the grudge he bears against Sirius. (Mona)
His feelings do not change and neither do those of Sirius but Snape's behaviour does change. He tries to put up with Sirius and contents himself with some sarcastic remarks while Sirius gives as good as he gets. When they almost duel, it Sirius who starts it, not Snape. Finally, when he gets Harry's message that Sirius may be in danger, he hurries to check what is happening. It seems, for all his grudge, he would not let Sirius die. So his behaviour towards him changes. Now, similarly, he may feel anything towards Peter (how could we know?), still he does not let his "grudge" or hatred or whatever it is interfere with the important things that he does.
But Harry gets over that very quickly.
He does maybe. Yet, when he sees Snape again, his hatred becomes as strong as if he still blamed Snape and is determined to think that Snape cannot be trusted. Why? Personally, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for another death... (Snape Victorious) It is one of Harry's worst moments, if not the worst, IMO, and ironically it is indeed a death that makes Snape lose the DADA job at the end of the school-year, Dumbledore's.
Snape does not see Sirius after the Potters' death. He sees him next in the Shack for the first time. It is not just Sirius that returns then but everything that Snape connects him to (prank and betrayal and James Potter.) That may explain why his "blaming Sirius" moment comes so late. Harry sees Snape after Sirius's death and he may start blaming himself during the holiday, yet his hatred returns when he sees Snape again and appears to be much stronger than before Sirius's death, which suggests that Harry is still trying to blame Snape.
mona amon - Jun 11, 2008 2:08 am (#2400 of 2617)
But Julia, I am talking about feelings, not behaviour. Behaviour will of course have to be kept in check, in accordace with Dumbledore's wishes in the case of Sirius, and his double agent role in the case of Wormtail. But the feelings are there, in the scene between him and Sirius where they end up with their wands pointed at each other's faces, and when he taunts Harry about him during the detentions in HBP. There is only one scene with Wormtail, at Spinner's End. I do not think Voldy would find fault with him for hating Wormtail. I think he'd have his full sympathy. And Snape shows his dislike for him by bossing him around and treating him like a house-elf, but there are no strong emotions there. JKR could easily have written that into the scene if she had wanted to.
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 2:42 am (#2401 of 2617)
Edited Jun 11, 2008 3:34 am
I do not think Voldy would find fault with him for hating Wormtail. I think he'd have his full sympathy. And Snape shows his dislike for him by bossing him around and treating him like a house-elf, but there are no strong emotions there. JKR could easily have written that into the scene if she had wanted to.
I don't understand why and how Voldy would sympathize with Snape's hatred of Peter? When we see Snape show his dislike towards Wormtail, he has guests. He can no more start a scene in front of them than he and Sirius could start duelling with the Weasley family arriving.
But now I am beginning to forget what it is we are talking about. I think my original point was why Sirius as the "traitor" is different from Peter-the-traitor. But maybe there is not much difference as far as feelings go (with the exception that Snape has other things against Sirius as well), only as regards the situation and, as a consequence, behaviour. Later, when Sirius is known to be no traitor, Snape does not consider him a traitor any more, though his school grudge (prank and all) remains, so he still dislikes him but he does not want to kill Sirius or even let him be killed any more, as he did before and he certainly does not vent his own guilt on him (any more). It is an important difference, isn't it? (Snape seems to be able to see the difference between Sirius-of-the-Prank and Sirius-Who-Betrayed-Lily.)
As for Wormtail, I do think Snape has found more important things to do by then than anything that might concern Wormtail; and by working against Voldy, he can do much more about his guilt than by simply projecting it onto someone else (which was another point made about Sirius in the Shack).
Dryleaves - Jun 11, 2008 4:22 am (#2402 of 2617)
As it seems, at least, don't Harry and Snape react rather similarly towards Sirius respectively Peter? Towards Sirius they both show a burning hatred. Harry wants to kill Sirius himself, even if he has no personal memories of him. When Peter is revealed to be the real traitor, right before Harry's eyes, his reaction is not the same hatred that makes him want to kill Sirius with his own hands, but disgust and contempt. The result of the betrayal is the same whoever committed it, but Sirius and Peter seem to evoke different feelings in people.
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 4:29 am (#2403 of 2617)
Good point, Dryleaves. Everybody seems to be disgusted with Peter, even Voldemort. (Perhaps it is partly the knowledge that Peter lived 12 years as a rat.)
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2008 6:02 am (#2404 of 2617)
Snape's hatred of Sirius being so much more volatile than Peter makes sense to me.
Snape for a long time thought that Sirius was the betrayer of the Potters. Later he discovers Peter was the betrayer. A reason to hate both at various times, right?
But that's not the only reasons to hate Sirius.
In Snape's view, even without Lily's death, hatred of Sirius wasn't just for some "schoolboy grudge" but the hatred one might have of one's would-be murderer. Snape believed Sirius actively attempted to murder him.
And remember when Snape was listening outside the door of the Shrieking Shack? What did he hear Sirius say about the Prank? Just as Lupin said that the prank almost got Snape killed, he heard Sirius say that Snape deserved it. So it appears, in Snape's view, that not only did teenage Sirius try to kill him, adult Sirius thinks it was a perfectly good idea to try to kill Snape.
Peter did not try to kill Snape, as far as we know, so that's one less reason to hate Peter so vehemently.
Further, even after Snape learned, presumably from DD, that Sirius wasn't really the betrayer of the Potters, what might he also have learned? If he learned the whole story that Sirius related, then he learned that it was Sirius' idea to use Pettigrew. So just as Snape was, years later, still furious at James for neglecting the info that one of his friends could be a traitor, and trusting what turned out to be a betrayer, leading to Lily's death, so Snape could continue to hate Sirius -- not as the traitor, but like James, an arrogant guy who wouldn't believe that someone might betray them and actually was the one to convince James to use the traitor, Peter.
Net result?
Snape's reasons for hating Peter are: the weak, cowardly guy who defected to Voldemort and sold out Lily, and one of the Marauders who bullied Snape in school.
Reasons to hate Sirius? His would-be murderer who still thinks murdering Snape a good idea. Arrogant jerk who convinced James to use the cowardly Peter as a secret keeper leading to Lily's death. The guy who continues to insult him and antagonize him.
It's also important that we see Snape interact with Sirius at the moment of first seeing him after Lily's death. At that moment, Snape has the upper hand and thinks he's about to take Sirius into custody.
We don't get to see the first time Snape saw Peter after discovering Peter was the traitor. And even if we had seen the scene, it would have been in the graveyard with Voldemort, so naturally Snape couldn't show much reaction to Peter. And following that, there must have been numerous times that Snape had to be around Peter and Voldemort, prior to Spinners End, where he had to hide his feelings about Peter. When we finally see Snape with Peter, it must be after they've met and interacted many many times off the page. At that point, Snape is mainly just being insulting of Peter. But what more can he do other than insult him and verbally push him around?
mona amon - Jun 11, 2008 10:09 am (#2405 of 2617)
But now I am beginning to forget what it is we are talking about. (Julia)
Lol, that often happens, doesn't it. I was trying to show that Snape's demented rage with Sirius seems to have more to do with his earlier grudges against Sirius than with Sirius's apparent role as Lily's betrayer.
I'm sure that if it had been Wormtail instead of Sirius that Snape was hunting down at the end of POA, he would have been a lot more calm and controlled when he finally got him cornered.
I was also pointing out that he seems to hate Wormtail, the betrayer of Lily, much less than he hates Sirius, childhood enemy. Of course, as has been pointed out by Wynnleaf, the situation at Spinners End is very different from the situation at the end of POA, but still, if the author had wanted to show us feelings of hatred for Wormtail, she could have managed it. "He shot him a look of intense loathing" or something like that (I'm sure Jo would have said it loads better ) slipped in somewhere would have been more than enough. But, since she shows us only contempt for Wormtail on Snape's part, I assume that is the main emotion he feels towards him.
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 10:30 am (#2406 of 2617)
But, since she shows us only contempt for Wormtail on Snape's part, I assume that is the main emotion he feels towards him. (Mona)
I agree with that! OK, Snape had more reason to hate Sirius and this hatred was nurtured over many years but I still think it counts than at the end of PoA, Snape's own guilt and despair coloured his feelings much more than later in the case of Wormtail, because he had other things to do about his guilt and otherwise and in that context the actual petty betrayer was not important any more.
When Snape saw Peter the first time in the graveyard (or maybe somewhere else if LV did not spend the whole night in the graveyard, with the Riddle House close at hand), he was occlumensing as hard as he could and had no time to even think of what he felt towards Peter. That may well have happened a couple of other times as well, but Snape probably had the opportunity (over time) to see how insignificant Peter, as an enemy, was.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 11, 2008 11:05 am (#2407 of 2617)
Harry sees Snape after Sirius's death and he may start blaming himself during the holiday, yet his hatred returns when he sees Snape again and appears to be much stronger than before Sirius's death, which suggests that Harry is still trying to blame Snape. - Julia
I have to disagree there, Julia. I think Harry is pretty resolute at this point. But when he sees Snape again for the first time, it is because Snape (and not for the first time) takes full advantage of his position of power. He comes to fetch Harry specifically for the few moments he will have alone with Harry to taunt him. Whose extant hatred wouldn't be brought to a boil in that situation?
Later, when Sirius is known to be no traitor, Snape does not consider him a traitor any more, though his school grudge (prank and all) remains, so he still dislikes him but he does not want to kill Sirius or even let him be killed any more, as he did before and he certainly does not vent his own guilt on him (any more). It is an important difference, isn't it? (Snape seems to be able to see the difference between Sirius-of-the-Prank and Sirius-Who-Betrayed-Lily.) - Julia
I'm afraid I just don't see this. While he may no longer see Sirius as a traitor in the technical sense, I think Snape certainly does continue to blame Sirius for Lily's death. I agree with Mona that Snape's feelings toward Sirius don't ever change, though he does (at Dumbledore's insistence) try to keep his behavior in check. Even after Sirius is killed, Snape happily berates him in absentia right along with James during the final detention with Harry.
In fairness though, Sirius is just as emotionally stunted (though it's understandable) and he is equally unable to let go of his own school rivalry with Snape.
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2008 1:19 pm (#2408 of 2617)
While he may no longer see Sirius as a traitor in the technical sense, I think Snape certainly does continue to blame Sirius for Lily's death. (Quinn)
My guess is this is correct. After all, if in POA Snape blamed James for trusting his friends, even with a warning (probably Snape's warning) that someone close to the Potters was betraying them, one would expect him to blame Sirius for the same thing. It's highly probable that Dumbledore would have had to relate Sirius' story of what really happened to Snape, in order to get Snape to however grudgingly accept working with Sirius. But in that story, Sirius admits that it was him that convinced James to use Peter as Secret Keeper. So yes, I'd imagine Snape continued to blame Sirius, just in a different way.
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 1:25 pm (#2409 of 2617)
But when he sees Snape again for the first time, it is because Snape (and not for the first time) takes full advantage of his position of power. He comes to fetch Harry specifically for the few moments he will have alone with Harry to taunt him. Whose extant hatred wouldn't be brought to a boil in that situation? (Quinn)
OK. Snape taunts him but to me it seems that Harry's reaction to Snape's taunting is much stronger than it was before he started to blame him for Sirius's death. (Wishing Snape dead and insisting that Snape is not to be trusted in the fight against Voldemort.) There is something very similar happening to Snape at the Shack. If Harry's extant hatred can be brought to a boil by Snape's behaviour even when he does not any more think that Snape is responsible for Sirius's death or for anything else but nasty behaviour, then why is it surprising that Snape's extant hatred for Sirius also comes to a boil when he sees him for the first time after so many years, when he still has a reason to think that Sirius is responsible for Lily's death and when he has just heard that Sirius thinks he (Snape) deserved to have been almost fed to a werewolf?
While he may no longer see Sirius as a traitor in the technical sense, I think Snape certainly does continue to blame Sirius for Lily's death. (Quinn)
Yes, that is so. But it is still not the same as being the traitor.
... though he does (at Dumbledore's insistence) try to keep his behavior in check.
I think Snape also accepts that Sirius is another order member even if they, personally, hate each other. When they quarrell and talk about "dogs", for example, Snape does not only taunt Sirius but also tells him important information concerning Sirius's safety, i.e., that Lucius Malfoy recognized him. Later, when Harry thinks that Sirius is in danger, Snape hurries to find out the truth, probably with the purpose of alerting the Order or DD or doing something else if he finds that Sirius is really captured. At the moment he is not being supervised by DD and he only got a cryptic message from Harry. Yet, he takes the question of Sirius's safety ... well, seriously. This is a bit more than just trying to keep his behaviour in check. No, I did not mean that he likes Sirius now (and Sirius does not even grant Snape, as a fellow Order member, as much as basic civility when they are in his house). I only said even though Snape still dislikes (hates) Sirius because of the old grudge, because of Sirius's present behaviour and, as you say, because of his stupidity that led to Lily's death, he is not vindictive (at least not seriously) any more and the difference is that technically, if you like, he does not think any more that Sirius is the one who betrayed Lily. Which is to say that earlier his vindictive behaviour was probably not only or not in the first place influenced by the Prank and similar things but by the assumption that Sirius had betrayed Lily. If he had only wanted to take revenge for the Prank, he would have remained just as actively vindictive even when both of them were Order members. As far as I remember that was the point I originally wanted to make.
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 1:52 pm (#2410 of 2617)
Who thinks that Snape (knowing Sirius's nature, both strengths and weaknesses) did attempt to push Sirius's buttons in the hopes that he would try something stupid and risk getting arrested, killed, or worse, Kissed?
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2008 3:45 pm (#2411 of 2617)
Who thinks that Snape (knowing Sirius's nature, both strengths and weaknesses) did attempt to push Sirius's buttons in the hopes that he would try something stupid and risk getting arrested, killed, or worse, Kissed? (Pesky)
I don't think Snape needed any reason at all. He hated Sirius and decided to say insulting things. In implying that Sirius was a coward for staying at Grimmauld Place, Snape took advantage of Dumbledore's orders that Sirius stay put. Snape wasn't just saying "you're a coward if you don't get out and do something." He was saying, "you exposed yourself to the public at the train station so that you'd have an excuse to hide out at home." Of course, that's not true. However, Snape probably did think Sirius' reckless action of going to the train station was Really Stupid and relished the opportunity to get a dig in at Sirius over the whole thing.
However, we don't know who started all of those verbal altercations at Grimmauld Place. The only one we get to see occurs at Christmas and it starts with Sirius intentionally pushing Snape's buttons with the notion that Snape telling Harry to sit down for a talk was the same as giving orders in Sirius' home and therefore Snape shouldn't do that. So the only incident we actually see is started by Sirius. If Sirius tended to start most of the altercations, then Snape's implications of cowardliness were retaliation to Sirius' rudeness, not some plan to get Sirius in trouble.
Solitaire - Jun 11, 2008 3:48 pm (#2412 of 2617)
Face it ... Snape and Sirius are still 17 years old when they're in the same room!
Quinn Crockett - Jun 11, 2008 5:02 pm (#2413 of 2617)
I'm sorry, Julia. You kind of lost me. In sum, I think Snape is vindictive toward Sirius because of their past and I think he does blame Sirius for Lily's death, though not necessarily from any active treachery. I'm having a hard time understanding from your post whether or not you agree (I think not).
But I agree with Wynnleaf in that I don't think Snape intentionally taunted Sirius for the specific purpose of inciting Sirius to get himself killed, however I imagine Snape viewed this as something of a bonus. Actually, it's interesting that Bellatrix says essentially the same thing to Snape about remaining safely behind at Hogwarts while she and the other Death Eaters were out maiming and plundering for the Cause.
Incidentally, think I would also have cautioned Snape about his tone had he been in my house and spoken to one of my young guests as if he were still in the classroom.
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 5:26 pm (#2414 of 2617)
All Snape says is, "Sit down, Potter." What's wrong with that? Also, I was brought up to respect my teachers. My parents dealt with problem teachers in private (without my knowledge) so I would not develop the habit of disrespecting my teachers and thus, lose out on all they had to teach. And yes, teachers command a certain respect whether in class or not. A teacher doesn't become a regular buddy once class is out, especially at that age. Let's not forget that Snape is at 12GP as a teacher, not Uncle Sev (***snickers uncontrollably***). Why does he have to bend backwards to break the norms of an out of class teacher-student relationship?
Quinn Crockett - Jun 11, 2008 6:29 pm (#2415 of 2617)
Easy, tiger. I didn't say anything about "bending over backwards". As always, it's not what a person says but how they say it.
All Snape says is, "Sit down, Potter." What's wrong with that?
And all Sirius says is, "You know, I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house you see." I find this to be a perfectly reasonable request (especially for Sirius).
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 7:22 pm (#2416 of 2617)
"Easy, tiger."
'... all Sirius says is, "You know, I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house you see."'
It's not what a person says but how they say it.
I happen to find Sirius's comment to be a very rude thing for a host to say to a guest. I've had people I don't like over at my house, and they've been far more obnoxious than, "Sit down, Potter," and I've never felt that as a host I have the right to remind a guest that they are on my property and thus, I give orders. That's just rude.
Snape just tells Harry to have a seat in his regular curt manner. Sirius sets the confrontational meeting with his insulting comment. A teacher may very well tell his student to sit down, but it is highly disrespectful for a guardian to overrule a teacher in front of his student. That sets a very bad example.
This scene really has nothing to do with Harry. It's a good old fashioned Marauder vs. Snape confrontation and Sirius instigates it ... it's a shame that Snape doesn't have the sense to ignore Sirius and plainly deliver his message from Dumbledore and get out of there. It's especially shameful that these two adults (one a guardian and the other a teacher) can not restrain themselves and make this scene in front of Harry.
Archivist's note: I took the liberty of inserting the smiley, which did not get copied ~ Mona
Quinn Crockett - Jun 11, 2008 9:01 pm (#2417 of 2617)
Ha ha! Pesky, what is funny about this little scene is that these two men absolutely hate each other but they are both so very similar. Each is so quick to assume the other is "starting something" but I think that's partly because each of them is doing just that! As you point out, it takes two to tango, as the saying goes.
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 10:12 pm (#2418 of 2617)
Right, the enmity between Severus and Sirius is so strong that both are on the defensive and ready to accuse the other of starting a confrontation. Therefore, perhaps both are prepared to be snappy ASAP and blame the other for instigating?
mona amon - Jun 12, 2008 12:53 am (#2419 of 2617)
Snape had more reason to hate Sirius and this hatred was nurtured over many years but I still think it counts than at the end of PoA, Snape's own guilt and despair coloured his feelings much more than later in the case of Wormtail, because he had other things to do about his guilt and otherwise and in that context the actual petty betrayer was not important any more. (Julia)
Actually he had more reason to hate Wormtail. Whatever Sirius may have done to him, it was Wormtail who actually betrayed, and therefore most directly brought about, the death of Lily. I do not get the feeling that his reactions are anything to do with guilt. People just react and respond to different people in different ways. Vindictive feelings for one person and lack of vindictive feelings for another do not always coincide with the amount of harm that each person has done. I found it all very interesting, and very realistic.
Which is to say that earlier his vindictive behaviour was probably not only or not in the first place influenced by the Prank and similar things but by the assumption that Sirius had betrayed Lily. If he had only wanted to take revenge for the Prank, he would have remained just as actively vindictive even when both of them were Order members.
The thing is he no longer has a reason or excuse to do him any harm. He is not the type to harm another just because he hates him. That is why he was so inordinately pleased to have a reason to catch Sirius and hand him over to justice, which he knew was the Dementor's Kiss. I won't be surprised if he was very disappointed to discover that Sirius was not the betrayer. In other words, I think vindictive feelings are there. But he does not actually act on them because he does not have an excuse for it.
Dryleaves - Jun 12, 2008 1:37 am (#2420 of 2617)
He [Sirius] and Snape are actually quite similar in my opinion. But at least in Sirius's case his arrested development can be easily attributed to something outside of his control. (Quinn)
I agree that they are very similar in all their differences. I suppose you mean that Sirius's arrested development is more understandable because he spent all those years in Azkaban, fighting for his survival and sanity among the dementors, while Snape led a rather comfortable life, teaching at Hogwarts, and only chose to be his own dementor.
Still, I am not sure Snape's situation is less understandable. Sirius survives because he knows he is innocent, he has this one, unhappy thought the dementors cannot take away from him that keeps him sane. (And I don't mean to say that this would make things any easier for Sirius!) I know you can debate Snape's sense of guilt, but I believe he feels guilty, and he has promised to protect Lily's son when Voldemort comes back. I think this promise holds him back, as he can only wait all those years before Harry comes to Hogwarts, before he can start doing anything for Lily. I think Snape changes from being a DE to being DD's man before that, but I think those teenage memories are so closely related to everything that has happened that it is hard for him to process them separately and probably he just chooses to push them away. Being at Hogwarts, a place full of teenagers, the same environment where all those things happened, is not, I imagine, the best strategy to get perspective of your own youth. Not when you return as soon as Snape does.
I think he is forced to process his memories after DD's death, when he has to establish a contact and a confidence with Harry, and then he does so. When Harry watches Snape's worst memory in the pensieve Snape is not at all ready for this. But the memories he gives to Harry before he dies show him in situations were he is very vulnerable, and I think he also opens up to Harry in a similar way when he sends the silver doe patronus to him. Now he is ready. So I don't think it was that easy for him to start a therapeutical journey before Harry was actually there under his nose and he could do something. And then it took its time.
ETA: The thing is he no longer has a reason or excuse to do him any harm. He is not the type to harm another just because he hates him. That is why he was so inordinately pleased to have a reason to catch Sirius and hand him over to justice, which he knew was the Dementor's Kiss. I won't be surprised if he was very disappointed to discover that Sirius was not the betrayer. In other words, I think vindictive feelings are there. But he does not actually act on them because he does not have an excuse for it. (Mona amon)
This is pretty much how I imagined the situation. I think he was disappointed. Related to the prank, we must remember that Snape was convinced that Sirius et al. were attempting to kill him, but they got away with it. This must be a rather horrible experience for Snape, as the fact that the whole thing was silenced could say something about how much his life was worth. He wanted to catch Sirius, but it was important to have a legitimate reason for it. Maybe it is wanting justice instead of revenge, or rather mingling these to concepts with each other.
Julia H. - Jun 12, 2008 2:03 am (#2421 of 2617)
Edited Jun 12, 2008 2:56 am
I'm sorry, Julia. You kind of lost me. In sum, I think Snape is vindictive toward Sirius because of their past and I think he does blame Sirius for Lily's death, though not necessarily from any active treachery. I'm having a hard time understanding from your post whether or not you agree (I think not). (Quinn)
How should I say it?
1) I also think that Snape blames Sirius for Lily's death, though definitely not from any active treachery. He knows now that the traitor was Peter. He blames Sirius for arrogance or stupidity or for ignoring sensible advice and so causing Lily's death. He also hates him because of their old enmity.
2) Maybe it is the word "vindictive" that we use differently. I simply tried to point out the difference between Snape's vindictiveness at the end of PoA, where he believes that Sirius is not only his enemy from school and not only someone who inadvertently caused the Potters' death but also the active traitor, and his behaviour in OOTP, where he still thinks that Sirius is his childhood and present enemy, knows to what extent Sirius is responsible for Lily's death and properly hates him but does not think any more that he is the active traitor. At the end of PoA, he is ready to hand over Sirius to the dementors. In OOTP, for all their arguments and enmity, when it comes to the question whether Sirius is in danger or not, he does not behave in a vindictive way but tries to help as he should help a fellow Order member. Yes, he hates him but he does not want him to be dead or to get back to Azkaban. That is merely the difference that I am trying to point out.
Why? The original question which started this part of the discussion was whether Snape's mad rage at the end of PoA is mainly due to the Prank and their old enmity (as the first-time reader is led to think) or at least as much to the belief that Sirius was the active traitor.
All I wanted to say was that it seems at the end of PoA, Snape's mad rage was at least in part due to the fact that he believed Sirius to be the active traitor. I think the fact that he could change his attitude to Sirius to some extent in OOTP (meaning: still hating him but not really trying to harm him in any serious way, not even by neglecting his safety) seems to support the idea that at the end of PoA, the main reason for his vindictiveness was believing Sirius to be the active traitor. If he had wanted to kill him in the first place because of the prank, for example, that would not have changed later, would it?
I hope I managed to be clear this time...
Even if Snape still blames Sirius for causing Lily's death, it is not the same as blaming him for betraying Lily. Perhaps in OOTP, he does see the similarity between Sirius and himself. I don't mean the similarity of their tendencies to jump down each other's throat (which certainly exists) but how they are both responsible for the Potters' death. Snape was at a time Lily's best friend, Sirius was James's best friend. Snape inadvertently and not caring for the possible consequences of his actions, set Voldemort on the Potters. Sirius inadvertently and carelessly not paying attention to better advice and warning, made it possible for Peter to betray the Potters. Perhaps what Snape hates most of all in Sirius (just an idea) is this "mirror image" of his guilt concerning the Potters' death. (Of course, what Snape did was much worse, from an ethical point of view, but he also worked hard to put it right and he failed because of Sirius's idea and Peter's betrayal. Actually it took quite a few friends to enable LV to kill the Potters.)
On other topics: I agree with Solitaire that Snape and Sirius are 17 when they are in the same room. I don't think Snape wants to taunt Sirius until he does something dangerous and stupid, only that he cannot hold his tongue once they have started. The same is true of Sirius. In the kitchen scene, Sirius seems to be the one who starts the argument. Sit down, Potter is not the same as telling Harry to make him a cup of coffee. The tone was just the ordinary school tone, I guess. Sirius, however, is the host, and it is very rude to point out to a guest "It is may house" but Sirius has no justifiable reason to do it anyway. Once Sirius starts, Snape is ready to respond in a similar tone. Later, it is Sirius who holds his wand ready to fight first. They do behave like teenagers.
Actually he had more reason to hate Wormtail. Whatever Sirius may have done to him, it was Wormtail who actually betrayed, and therefore most directly brought about, the death of Lily. (Mona)
When I said Snape had more reason to hate Sirius than Wormtail, I meant he had more reason to hate Sirius first when he thought Sirius was the traitor than later to hate Wormtail when he knew Wormtail was the traitor. There is a time difference here. I simply meant besides hating Sirius for being the traitor, he also hated him for other reasons. I agree when he already knew Wormtail was the traitor, he had more reason to hate traitor-Wormtail than non-traitor-Sirius but he probably did not hate Wormtail as much now as earlier he hated Sirius (when he thought Sirius was the traitor). (But then Wormtail was too disgusting to evoke strong feelings other than contempt.)
wynnleaf - Jun 12, 2008 6:08 am (#2422 of 2617)
Well put, Julia. There has to be something driving Snape's anger and active work to send Sirius to Azkaban which is not there later in OOTP where he only has some verbal sparring and actively tries to convince Sirius not to go to the Ministry and get captured.
Being at Hogwarts, a place full of teenagers, the same environment where all those things happened, is not, I imagine, the best strategy to get perspective of your own youth. (Dryleaves)
While Sirius was in Azkaban for 12 years, and many put that down as an excuse for his arrested development, I can't see why he would be arrested at age 17 or so, rather than his early 20's when he went to Azkaban. In other words, I think the Sirius we see in OOTP reflects how he was when he went into Azkaban, which wasn't as a teenager, but a bit older. If that's true, then at 21 or 22, Sirius was already and "arrested development" teenager. His comments in POA that Snape deserved the Prank, in my opinion reveal that he always thought that, even up to his going to Azkaban in his twenties. If Sirius had changed his opinion of the Prank (which occurred when he was about 16), a year or two or three or four or five years later, and realized how Very Wrong and dangerous it was not only to Snape, but to Lupin, I don't think his some of his first comments about Snape, having not even seen him for years, would be that he deserved it.
As for Snape and arrested development, I think Dryleaves makes good points. In addition to the guilt and stress that Snape dealt with, I think it's important to realize that Snape actually lived in a place conducive to his arrested development. He left school at about 18, spent about 3 years doing something else including being a DE, and then at about age 21 went back to Hogwarts, where all of his supposed "peers" were generations older than him and the same teachers who had taught him, and many of his students had known him in school. While he's got Spinners End, he appears to spend his holidays at the school. And he doesn't seem to have many other friends outside of school other than perhaps the Malfoys. So the idea that he tends to use many of the same attitudes, manners etc. socially as he always did is hardly surprising.
Julia H. - Jun 12, 2008 8:06 am (#2423 of 2617)
As for Snape and arrested development, I think Dryleaves makes good points. In addition to the guilt and stress that Snape dealt with, I think it's important to realize that Snape actually lived in a place conducive to his arrested development. (Wynnleaf)
I agree.
...then at about age 21 went back to Hogwarts, where all of his supposed "peers" were generations older than him and the same teachers who had taught him, and many of his students had known him in school.
Wow! I have known that Snape's colleagues had been his teachers but it has never really occurred to me that among his first students, there must have been quite a few who had known him as a student but it is certainly so. It is a tough situation. I remember when I started to teach, many of my colleagues were my former teachers (the ones I took my first exams with, two who each had lost me on an excursion, one that I had been afraid of...) and had to get used to this new situation. Also, the students were just a few years younger than me but at least they had not known me before - even so it was something like a transitional period when a silly haircut was enough to make me look younger than some of my students.
For Snape, well, some of his older students had seen him and James hexing each other in the park, been perhaps witness to his worst memory, seen him being caught by Filch for rule-breaking behaviour... His colleagues must have remembered all kinds of things as well. Perhaps Snape had to be such a strict teacher to survive at all, to set the limits and draw the lines. I mean he was a Severus, no doubt, but a softer person could have had very, very hard time in this situation. He may have felt that this strict attitude worked and so he insisted on it.
On top of that, all those memories, guilt, his DE past coming to light (I guess) and so on...
mona amon - Jun 12, 2008 9:41 am (#2424 of 2617)
His comments in POA that Snape deserved the Prank, in my opinion reveal that he always thought that, even up to his going to Azkaban in his twenties. If Sirius had changed his opinion of the Prank (which occurred when he was about 16), a year or two or three or four or five years later, and realized how Very Wrong and dangerous it was not only to Snape, but to Lupin, I don't think his some of his first comments about Snape, having not even seen him for years, would be that he deserved it. (Wynnleaf)
I totally agree.
Perhaps Snape had to be such a strict teacher to survive at all, to set the limits and draw the lines. (Julia)
But Hogwarts was the only school for magic for the whole of Britain, so almost all the teachers would initially have been in the same situation as Snape. But not all of them bully the students the way he does.
At the end of PoA, he is ready to hand over Sirius to the dementors. In OOTP, for all their arguments and enmity, when it comes to the question whether Sirius is in danger or not, he does not behave in a vindictive way but tries to help as he should help a fellow Order member. Yes, he hates him but he does not want him to be dead or to get back to Azkaban. (Julia)
There has to be something driving Snape's anger and active work to send Sirius to Azkaban which is not there later in OOTP where he only has some verbal sparring and actively tries to convince Sirius not to go to the Ministry and get captured. (Wynnleaf)
Let me put my argument this way. It was because Snape thought that Sirius was the betrayer that he wanted him handed over to justice, dead, kissed, whatever. It was because of old grudges and vindictive feelings towards Sirius that he took such an insane delight in the fact that Sirius was going to be kissed or sent back to Azkaban.
Julia H. - Jun 12, 2008 10:23 am (#2425 of 2617)
But Hogwarts was the only school for magic for the whole of Britain, so almost all the teachers would initially have been in the same situation as Snape. But not all of them bully the students the way he does. (Mona)
I was not talking about bullying - that is a different question, we have discussed it amply - but being a strict teacher. This kind of thing: Snape's mere presence was usually enough to ensure a class's silence. I did not even say this was the only reason, sure, it is a question of personality in the first place, only that this strict attitude may have worked for him and that had he been a softer person, it might have been difficult for him to "survive" as a teacher in this situation. As for most other teachers: Snape is not the only strict teacher, is he? Then again, not everybody may have started their teaching career as young as Snape. In fact, I cannot remember any other 20-21-year-old Hogwarts teacher mentioned in the seven books. (Others perhaps can.) Anyway, it is not necessarily typical. Apart from that, Snape also had his recent past to cope with.
It was because Snape thought that Sirius was the betrayer that he wanted him handed over to justice, dead, kissed, whatever. It was because of old grudges and vindictive feelings towards Sirius that he took such an insane delight in the fact that Sirius was going to be kissed or sent back to Azkaban. (Mona)
I see, this is clear now. But I still think that his belief that Sirius was the traitor who betrayed Lily - on top of his old grudges - was what made him so mad.
PeskyPixie - Jun 12, 2008 10:33 am (#2426 of 2617)
Do we have any evidence of Snape actually bullying any of his students other than Harry and his closest pals? He's very strict, but I honestly don't remember any non-Harry moments of bullying on his behalf as a teacher.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 12, 2008 10:58 am (#2427 of 2617)
On "arrested development": Unless there is some sort of catastrophic occurrence (i.e. Dumbledore), I don't think there is any significant difference in maturity, other than physically, between 17 and 21, especially for boys. They're kind of all hopped up on testosterone at that age pretty much all the time. So I don't know that those extra couple of years Sirius had between Hogwarts and Azkaban would really have made that much of a difference to his behavior.
I think Dryleaves makes some good points about Snape being sort of automatically stuck in adolescence just by virtue of his being physically in the very environment where those memories occurred. Many of us can relate to the sort of regression we sometimes experience in certain situations when we go back to visit our parents, for example. Imagine having to experience that all the time Egad!
On Snape's Grudge: I also agree with Wynnleaf (?) that Snape's past with Sirius causes him to be vindictive toward him, but generally in only a passive way. What I mean is that while he doesn't seem to actively seek to harm Sirius, he's certainly not unhappy when Sirius is killed, for example.
Orion - Jun 12, 2008 11:53 am (#2428 of 2617)
"I remember when I started to teach, many of my colleagues were my former teachers (the ones I took my first exams with, two who each had lost me on an excursion..." (Julia) Who are you, Trevor?
mona amon - Jun 12, 2008 12:06 pm (#2429 of 2617)
LOL, Orion, I too was surprised at Julia being lost two times and by two different persons, but I was too busy with other parts of her post and forgot to comment!
Pesky, I think Snape's bullying of Neville is the only one on record.
Julia H. - Jun 12, 2008 12:50 pm (#2430 of 2617)
LOL! I hope I am not Trevor! There were only those two occasions as far as I can remember...
Pesky, I think Snape's bullying of Neville is the only one on record. (Mona)
That is the only one I could come up with too. But it can be argued that Neville belongs to the Harry-set.
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PeskyPixie - Jun 12, 2008 1:00 pm (#2431 of 2617)
Orion, you crack me up! We must keep a close eye on Julia and make sure she doesn't wander off too far!
Mona, I include Neville with HRH (i.e. Snape seems to feel that he has personal reasons for loathing them). Snape hates Ron and Hermione because they are Harry's buddies and I think that his dislike of Neville may initially be a reaction to Neville's very existence. If only he and his family had perished, Sev's Lily may be alive today. Very unfair, but I wouldn't put it past our Potions Master.
Apart from these nutty personal vendettas, I don't think Snape bullies any of his students. Can anyone come up with any incidents I may have missed?
ETA: LOL, cross-posted with Julia.
Dryleaves - Jun 12, 2008 1:15 pm (#2432 of 2617)
I thought he just considered Neville hopelessly stupid. I mean, doesn't he melt down his cauldron during the very first potions class or something like that? Snape then states that Neville is an idiot and then poor, insecure Neville insists on constantly proving the truth of this statement as long as he takes potions. I don't think Snape needs another reason than that.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 12, 2008 8:09 pm (#2433 of 2617)
As usual this thread moves so quickly. I just want to say that I was fascinated with the discussion of empathy, how it is different from sympathy and compassion and how it might be possible for a psychopath like Voldemort might be empathetic but not compassionate nor sympathetic.
Ok back to regular discussion.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 12, 2008 10:15 pm (#2434 of 2617)
Indeed, Rambkowalczyk (that's a bit of a mouthful in English ). I think it is an important because it is through empathy - that is, an intellectual understanding of someone else's emotional experience - that Voldemort is able to emulate "proper" behavior in certain situations without actually ever feeling it himself.
It's interesting because Snape sometimes seems similar in the way he knows just where someone's most sensitive spot is and has no qualms about repeatedly poking that spot with a sharp stick. However, I think it's also pretty clear that Snape is extremely sensitive himself. What do people make of this?
I guess I think it's strange that he should be so close to Dumbledore and not have learned a bit of balance. Maybe it's just as simple as what Dryleaves mentioned about sort of automatically regressing because of being at Hogwarts all the time.
Julia H. - Jun 13, 2008 3:50 am (#2435 of 2617)
Good observations and questions, Quinn. This automatic regressing at Hogwarts is probably a very important reason.
I think it's strange that he should be so close to Dumbledore and not have learned a bit of balance. (Quinn)
I guess, there are things which are not automatically corrected due to the presence of a more balanced person (especially if other circumstances reinforce the old tendencies). Yet, DD's presence and their relationship may very well influence Snape's personality and it is a very interesting question how.
The way I see is DD, when he decides to help Snape get out of the abyss, becomes in a way responsible for him. It is as said in The Little Prince: "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." DD decides to "tame" Snape and accepts the responsibility for him and I think he lives up to this responsibility in many ways. He protects him, he probably - at last - takes a positive interest in him, he stands by him when Lily dies and shows him a way to go on, he puts up with his faults and so on. Yes, they are close, or more precisely, he lets Snape open up to him and takes the time to get to know him. However, just as we see DD remain a bit distant for Harry most of the time, he probably keeps a similar distance from Snape (maybe less so, I don't know) in many respects. I don't think, for example, that he ever lets Snape know that he has also experienced grief and mourning and even guilt. As Snape knows him, DD probably seems to be too perfect, too powerful, too wise to really learn from the example he is setting to him. (This changes suddenly at the moment when Snape is saving DD's life, though.) Also, DD has lots of other things to do, so Snape is probably often left alone to cope with his everyday problems, just like Harry (and his everyday problems are rather serious).
In reality, as we know, DD is not at all perfect and can make mistakes. I have already said that he seems to do nothing to stop the developing enmity between Snape and Harry before it is too late. He does not even put down Transfiguration Today. Still, it goes to DD's credit that the scene also indicates Snape feels he can talk to DD about things that bother him. Even if nothing really therapeutic happens, DD lets Snape talk at least; they are close enough for Snape to rant in DD's office and for DD to feel quite comfortable with his paper while talking to him. That must be very important to Snape, since DD is the only person he can open up to.
In the end-of-book conversation of OOTP, DD seems to know how and why the occlumency lessons ended without Harry telling him. Of course, ha could have heard the details from Sirius or Lupin but he seems to sympathize with Snape so much that it seems he must have talked about it with him at some point.
But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing...
From this and from the fact that while he repeatedly tries to make Snape see the good (or Lily) in Harry, we never see DD try to change Snape's feeling towards James (except when he scolds Snape for not caring about the lives of all of the Potters) and he never seems to blame Snape for not forgiving James, as if he understood, for example, the long-term traumatizing effect of the Worst Memory (with and without Lily) and possibly the prank and maybe even this arrested emotional development we are talking about and knew these things could not be easily changed at will. Then again, in other cases, DD seems to effectively manipulate Snape by means of his guilt, which is yet another (more questionable) aspect of their relationship. On the whole, he cannot make Snape a happier person although he helps him change his life and his morals and gives him the trust and the responsibility necessary for him to grow up. Yet, while DD lives, Snape is so much dependent on him that it may actually hamper his growing up - but then again Snape may just need DD and his guidance most of this time. In the end, before DD dies, he leaves a terrible burden to Snape but by this time Snape has grown enough to learn to cope with it alone.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 13, 2008 4:43 am (#2436 of 2617)
but then again Snape may just need DD and his guidance most of this time.
Maybe Snape was always looking for guidance (as well as love). Snape the teenager is described like a plant with out sunlight, sunlight that would guide a plant to grow up (as well as nurture him).
I've argued way back when that Lily is like a mother figure to Snape more so than a girl friend. What I mean by this is that a) generally speaking she loved him unconditionally and b) she gave him a set of morals to live by. She always made it clear what was right and what was wrong. Lily, not his parents, not Dumbledore was his moral beacon.
One might say that Lily didn't love Snape unconditionally because she didn't understand why Snape used the Mudblood word and that she should have cut him some slack in that instance.
But I think in this case Snape rightly interpreted her sense of right and wrong. I think he saw her rejection of him as a rejection of his choice to become a Death Eater and not a rejection of him as a person although emotionally he couldn't tell the difference. If he saw the rejection as Lily doesn't love him anymore, I doubt he would have wanted to save her as much as he did.
Dryleaves - Jun 13, 2008 5:06 am (#2437 of 2617)
'Fellow seems quite unbalanced,' said Fudge, staring after him. I'd watch out for him, if I were you, Dumbledore.
'Oh, he's not unbalanced,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'He's just suffered a severe disappointment.' (PoA, Ch 22, when Sirius has escaped)
This quote just crossed my mind, so I wanted to post it, without making any particular points about it, other than that it shows that DD has a certain understanding of Snape, while other people, especially Harry, of course, seem to think like Fudge.
I think Julia makes good points about the relationship between Snape and DD. I use to imagine that Snape went to talk to DD about the occlumency-lessons and Harry's intrusion into his memories. Besides the fact that DD knows about it and seems understanding, I also think Snape would tell him that he couldn't go on with the lessons as he had first promised DD to teach Harry.
Orion - Jun 13, 2008 5:50 am (#2438 of 2617)
DD can shut up. He's the headmaster who doesn't raise a finger when Snape gets almost killed in the Prank. Why does Snape trust him? He knows very well from experience that DD doesn't care sod-all for his life. And that's exactly how it turns out in the end.
DD with his Transfiguration Today is not relaxed in Snape's presence, he's bored to tears and lets Snape's rant wash over his head. Where's the guidance in that?
Edited to add: Wynnleaf, that's a good catch with the stretcher for Sirius. I never noticed that.
Julia H. - Jun 13, 2008 6:50 am (#2439 of 2617)
I've argued way back when that Lily is like a mother figure to Snape more so than a girl friend. (Ramb)
Hm...interesting... (Then this would be the kind of relationship that has no future from the very first moment on.) Need to think about it more.
But I think in this case Snape rightly interpreted her sense of right and wrong. I think he saw her rejection of him as a rejection of his choice to become a Death Eater and not a rejection of him as a person although emotionally he couldn't tell the difference.
I don't quite understand this. Did he know the difference or not? Besides, I don't think that Snape had chosen to be a DE by that point. Lily may have seen it so but I see nothing else but Snape being a Slytherin, interested in Dark things and wanting to be loyal to his house mates, picking up their language and behaviour patterns. His problem seems to be at this age that he ignores the necessity to choose.
'Fellow seems quite unbalanced,' said Fudge, staring after him. I'd watch out for him, if I were you, Dumbledore.
'Oh, he's not unbalanced,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'He's just suffered a severe disappointment.'
And I did think Snape was unbalanced! So is he or not?
Orion, that is what I expected from you! I understand it and you may be totally right about the newspaper scene. However, DD did have a positive influence on Snape even though the things you point out are totally valid. No, he is not the ideal father figure and I did not want to imply this. Still, he is better than anything else Snape ever had. Anyway, I think their relationship is worth a discussion and it would be more interesting to see both the positive and negative sides (from Snape's point of view) than just dismiss the whole thing as rubbish. I don't have any definite answers but I think DD's influence on Snape is, in the plot, something that is just below the surface of the actual story, deep enough to be exciting but (probably) close enough to the surface to be analyzed.
Dryleaves - Jun 13, 2008 7:32 am (#2440 of 2617)
And I did think Snape was unbalanced! So is he or not? (Julia)
Not according to DD, anyway.
Orion, I can see your point too. But I think this relationship is a bit more complex (or it is just me being ambivalent ). For example, when DD tells Snape that Harry must die, it becomes clear to Snape that he has been used by DD. Still, when DD tells him this, his use of Snape is not over - in fact he needs him more than ever in a near future, so maybe there is some honesty and respect after all? In some parts of DH I think DD is very cold towards Snape, but I think there are some examples in earlier books where he shows that he cares about him.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2008 8:42 am (#2441 of 2617)
Orion, we don't know for certain what Dumbledore's response was to the Prank. For all we know, Sirius was punished quite a bit for it. Just because said punishment had no effect on Sirius doesn't mean it didn't occur. And DD couldn't expell Sirius without exposing Lupin, which wouldn't have been fair to Lupin.
And later, as far as how much DD cared for Snape's life, yes he does have Snape do a lot of risky things for the Order and to fulfill that "anything!" promise. But Snape seems quite ready and willing, and as the leader of the Order, Dumbledore had to put many in the "line of fire" so to speak. I don't like it that Dumbledore did not appear to have given Snape info about the Elder Wand, even after DD should have been able to deduce that LV would be trying to get it and master it, but DD tended, in my opinion, to hold far too many cards too "close to his chest" and this doesn't necessarily show a specific disregard for Snape.
---------------------
Has anyone ever seen the film, "Good Will Hunting"? I watched it for the first time last night and much of it relates quite well to Snape and some of our recent discussions.
In the film, Will Hunting is a brilliant 20 year old from a poor and very rough background. We gradually learn that he came from an abusive/neglected parental and foster-parent background and was also bullied as a child by other kids. By his teens he has gotten into quite a bit of trouble in various fights. He has become a person who faces the world by using his gifted mind and wit to insult and verbally abuse others primarily as a mode of defense. We learn that he does this because very deep down he is trying to drive people away from himself. Of course, he doesn't admit this to himself, but we gradually learn that he has so many issues and deep within feels that if he allows anyone "inside" they will reject him. So he forces them to reject him quickly by his offensive manner. He does have some friends or associates, but even they are not really allowed to know him deeply.
In one of the few physical confrontations of the film, there is a place where the 20 year old Will sees a fellow who used to bully him as a child and Will goes and picks a fight with him. The viewer gets the sense that Will's rage at this old bully isn't just for a school-boy grudge, but for his whole past, of which the bully is in part only a symbol.
A brilliant mathematician comes to know and appreciate Will's gifts and wants mentor him in mathematics (he exceeds his mentor's abilities, by the way). The mentor finally gets him to a psychiatrist who can help, after Will has driven off 5 other psychs. It is the psychiatrist (Robin Williams) who is finally able to gain Will's trust, in part by being himself very vulnerable to Will and exposing his own past which mirrors Will's to an extent, and showing Will the need to take the risks of trying to allow at least a select few to know him.
Before this happens however, Will has met a girl who is able to look beneath the surface and appreciate and care for him in spite of his manner, sarcasm, etc. However, as she begins to get closer and closer to him, he begins to use his verbal ability to even push her away, even as he cares more for her than he has ever cared for anyone.
It reminded me a great deal of what we've discussed about Snape. Various posters have theorized that Snape's offensive, sarcastic, harsh manner is a defensive thing to keep anyone from getting close and risking their rejection of his inner self, because years of rejection as a child (from his parent's neglect and possible abuse of his father) have taught him that he's going to be rejected anyway. We have discussed whether or not he couldn't just grow up and put these issues behind him, as though that's just a choice he could either make or not make. In "Good Will Hunting" we are told that it's not so much a choice for Will, as it is the ability to see with clarity his own past and the reasons for why he is as he is. And it takes not simply years or maturity for Will to come to this understanding, but a long period of therapy with an excellent counselor who gains his trust by first being open and vulnerable with him.
In our discussions about Snape, we wonder what his relationship with Dumbledore could have done to change Snape. If Snape's motivations were anything like Will Hunting, I'd expect Dumbledore to only be able to help Snape with his relationship problems (to students and adults alike) if he did open up his past and become vulnerable to Snape. But as others have mentioned, my impression is that Dumbledore did not reveal to Snape some of their similarities -- that is, Dumbledore's own mistakes, the deaths on his own conscious, his personal temptations, etc., and so Snape may have always assumed that Dumbledore was sort of "perfect".
In "Good Will Hunting", Will has a problem in placing those he likes on a kind of pedestal, assuming them almost perfect, and when their imperfections are revealed, it gives him yet another excuse to keep up barriers between himself and that person. Also, because he assumes a kind of perfection in those he likes, he also assumes they will reject his true self, if he revealed it. This reminded me of Snape's view of Lily, which, in my opinion, was to view Lily as though she was on some sort of pedestal. He seems to almost worship her, and after her death she is able to be this incredible symbol or standard of goodness in part because he saw her as so purely good. That's not spelled out in the DH, of course, and is only my impression.
By the way, in spite of giving a lot of the "Good Will Hunting" away, there is much more to it and if you haven't seen it, you should. Matt Damon and Ben Afleck wrote the script while at Harvard (as I recall) and worked several years to get it produced and finally won an Academy Award for the screenplay. I should add a warning, however, that it has a lot of pretty bad language.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 13, 2008 9:40 am (#2442 of 2617)
But I think in this case Snape rightly interpreted her sense of right and wrong. I think he saw her rejection of him as a rejection of his choice to become a Death Eater and not a rejection of him as a person although emotionally he couldn't tell the difference.(Ramb)
I don't quite understand this. Did he know the difference or not? Besides, I don't think that Snape had chosen to be a DE by that point. Lily may have seen it so but I see nothing else but Snape being a Slytherin, interested in Dark things and wanting to be loyal to his house mates, picking up their language and behavior patterns. His problem seems to be at this age that he ignores the necessity to choose. Julia H
I understand this argument and it does seem unfair to me that Lily rejects him on the grounds of being a Death Eater. The question as to why does James get away with it and Severus doesn't isn't really answered. But although Snape is clearly hurt by this, I find it surprising that Snape doesn't seek revenge on Lily that he doesn't try to argue that it is her fault or that she should pay. I think it's because deep down inside he knows she's right.
Also, because he assumes a kind of perfection in those he likes, he also assumes they will reject his true self, if he revealed it. wynnleaf
Does Severus see Lily as perfect? Has she rejected Snape's true self? I've argued that she has only rejected Snape's choice to follow Death Eaters. Does Snape realize that at that time? I am not so sure. Maybe when he knows that Voldemort has targeted her, he understands the distinction and it is because of this that he can try to save her.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2008 9:49 am (#2443 of 2617)
I'd like to add that I think that Dumbledore himself did not "let people in" or show his own vulnerabilities to others, and therefore apparently never shared some of his greatest feelings of guilt or shame, the death of his sister, etc. with anyone. Doge, for instance, is supposed to be a friend, but doesn't seem to know much of the real explanations behind DD's past.
If DD is himself a person who puts up barriers between himself and others -- except his perhaps being his eccentric manner and secret keeping -- it seems unlikely that he'd have opened up to Snape or ben any sort of mentor in regards Snape learning how to deal with others.
I don't include the scene of DD reading the journal while Snape rants about Harry as any particular evidence of DD not giving enough attention to Snape's needs. On the contrary, I see it as a response coming from many, many previous rants by Snape on various students or other topics. I imagine Snape has gone on for years about various things to DD and DD probably heard the one about Harry and thought "Severus is on a rant again. Oh well." Which seems to be what's going on at the end of POA as well. DD is so used to Snape and his temper that Snape's fury over Sirius' escape does not seem unhinged to DD.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2008 9:54 am (#2444 of 2617)
Does Severus see Lily as perfect? Has she rejected Snape's true self? I've argued that she has only rejected Snape's choice to follow Death Eaters. (ramb)
Perhaps you're misunderstanding me. I don't mean that Snape would be right about people rejecting him if took down the barriers he puts up, but that he might assume that. I was trying to point out that the background in Will Hunting's story is much the same and it is very believable that his harsh manner is a defense mechanism. If Snape's is a defense mechanism as well, it is a defense against what he assumes will happen, not necessarily what will happen.
As for Lily, she may have seen the "true Snape" -- I think we're to believe that he was more open with her. And she rejected him. Granted, it was supposedly for his Dark friends (although I think she was rejecting him for many things, not just that), but Snape apparently didn't see that she was rejecting him for that, because he couldn't see the difference in his friends who she objected to, and the Marauders. He was later able to accept that she rejected him over the "mudblood" comment, but that doesn't mean that he truly understood what she saw as so wrong about everything else. Further, he probably wouldn't, at that point, see the difference in her rejecting the associations he was making, versus rejecting him personally.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 13, 2008 10:33 am (#2445 of 2617)
Oh, is that what that movie was about? I just remember looking at my watch several times.
I don't think we should fault Dumbledore too much for not sharing his personal demons with Snape. He doesn't seem to have shared them with anyone, really. But more than that, I would say that Dumbledore recognizes his role in their relationship and that unleashing his demons early on would be ... counter-productive.
What I mean is that Dumbledore seems fully aware that Snape has him on a sort of pedestal. But if Dumbledore were to step down he really wouldn't be helping Snape by doing so. Snape, up until about HBP anyway, needs Dumbledore to be up there. He needs to have something to strive toward, someone "above" him that he can look up to. If Dumbledore were to reveal that he is nothing more than an old man with a lot of hangups, I think that would be pretty devastating to Snape's precarious little psyche.
But I think Rambkowalczyk (do you have a nickname?) makes an excellent observation that Lily didn't reject Severus, the person. She rejected the choice he made (or was well on his way to making) after he all but confirmed it for her by his use of that specific epithet against her. She had tried to discuss it with him, but he, for whatever reason, was unable to hear it.
I don't necessarily agree that he sees Lily as "perfect" since he clearly disapproves of her budding infatuation with James Potter.
Julia H. - Jun 13, 2008 2:24 pm (#2446 of 2617)
He needs to have something to strive toward, someone "above" him that he can look up to. If Dumbledore were to reveal that he is nothing more than an old man with a lot of hangups, I think that would be pretty devastating to Snape's precarious little psyche. (Quinn)
I've been thinking about that and I really could not decide. (I'm not a psychologist anyway.) Yes, Snape definitely needs someone to look up to, however, he also needs that someone close to him. No, I don't think DD should reveal that he is "an old man with a lot of hangups", still a perfect role model is an unreachable role model, which Snape cannot really dream of approaching, and a perfect role model cannot show him that it is possible to improve, it is possible to get over things that Snape should get over and to move on. Maybe his arrested development is a part of the question. I guess Snape could not really look up to his father, probably not really to his mother either. Children need adults (parents) they can look up to, parents they can imagine as perfect beings. Adolescents, however, start seeing their parents as ordinary mortals with their own faults and everything and they can even be very critical towards them. Ideally, later their opinion becomes balanced and realistic. (This is what happens to Harry both with James and with DD.) If Snape, as a child, had nobody to look up to (maybe Lily but she was not an adult), then he may just need to experience this now, as a young adult. However, if this is really so (I wonder if the experience can be the same when it comes so late, arrested development or not), he also has to experience later the "adolescent" stage and I think this happens before and after DD's death.
I don't necessarily agree that he sees Lily as "perfect" since he clearly disapproves of her budding infatuation with James Potter.
Who would not disapprove of his love's "budding infatuation" with another guy? For only that, he can still see her as practically perfect, I think.
Various posters have theorized that Snape's offensive, sarcastic, harsh manner is a defensive thing to keep anyone from getting close and risking their rejection of his inner self, because years of rejection as a child (from his parent's neglect and possible abuse of his father) have taught him that he's going to be rejected anyway. (Wynnleaf)
I think it is very probable and it seems to be very clear in the case of Harry. (By the time Snape reaches his early twenties, his guilt has probably reinforced this basic feeling of being rejected.) Snape is probably absolutely sure that Harry would hate him if he really knew him, so instead of trying to confess, he just makes Harry hate him anyway. Harry is, of course, special in this regard but Snape may very well use essentially similar strategies towards others, if not necessarily with the "purpose" (result) of definite hatred towards him but at least keeping enough distance to prevent anyone from getting to know his "inner self". Then DD is very important as the only person (post-Lily) and the only adult who knows and accepts Snape and (I think) who also lets him know that. It is another question whether emotional insecurity, brought from childhood, can really be changed by that now.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2008 4:11 pm (#2447 of 2617)
I don't think we should fault Dumbledore too much for not sharing his personal demons with Snape. He doesn't seem to have shared them with anyone, really. (Quinn)
Then DD is very important as the only person (post-Lily) and the only adult who knows and accepts Snape and (I think) who also lets him know that. (Julia)
I don't fault DD for not sharing is inner self with Snape and, as Quinn says, he doesn't really share that with anyone except Harry in the afterlife, when, one presumes, it hardly counts as a step forward in character development. I wasn't trying to fault DD for not sharing with Snape, but to comment that because he does not, or cannot share his own inner self, he's hardly the person to mentor Snape into doing so. And if Snape's basic manner of sarcasm and insults is, ultimately, a defense mechanism, then he cannot change until he is able to stop being defensive and keep barriers between himself and the world.
As Julia points out, the only people who seem to know Snape's inner self are also people for whom he probably doesn't know their inner selves or their faults. I say this because 1. Snape seems as an adult to practically revere Lily, so she must be on a kind of pedestal and 2. DD didn't share his inner self, his weaknesses or temptations, so it's unlikely that Snape knew DD in that way. So that means that the two people who "know" Snape (to whatever degree they did know him well), are viewed by him as these paragons, which, being human, they weren't. So where does that leave him, knowing how far he falls short and the degree of his guilt?
Because I think that's a basically unhealthy position for a person to be in longterm, I think it's very unfortunate that DD was unable to share his own more human side (faults and all) with Snape.
PeskyPixie - Jun 13, 2008 5:09 pm (#2448 of 2617)
I wonder if Snape experiences something sort of similar to what Harry goes through once Dumbledore's past comes out ... or maybe he despises Rita Skeeter enough to not care about anything she has to say.
Julia H. - Jun 13, 2008 5:12 pm (#2449 of 2617)
He may. BTW, Lily's old letter also refers to DD's past, even if he does not believe Rita. The Don't worry, Dumbledore just strikes me as a different tone.
mona amon - Jun 13, 2008 8:07 pm (#2450 of 2617)
Good post #2441 Wynnleaf. I havent seen Good Will Hunting, but I've always felt Snape was someone who was afraid to care for people and afraid to allow people to care for him, especially after Lily's rejection. But I never thought about the 'professional help' aspect of it.
Dumbledore is certainly not the right person to give this to him. He seems to be the type of person who likes to leave people alone to sort themselves out.
'Fellow seems quite unbalanced,' said Fudge, staring after him. I'd watch out for him, if I were you, Dumbledore.
'Oh, he's not unbalanced,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'He's just suffered a severe disappointment.' (PoA, Ch 22, when Sirius has escaped)
This quote just crossed my mind, so I wanted to post it, without making any particular points about it, other than that it shows that DD has a certain understanding of Snape, while other people, especially Harry, of course, seem to think like Fudge. (Dryleaves)
After I realised that Snape was in love with Lily (for me this was only after I read the worst memory scene in OOTP), I used to feel that Dumbledore was being extremely callous in that scene, laughing at and enjoying Snape's uncontrolled rage, while the poor man was clearly deranged because the one who betrayed the woman he loved was allowed to escape. But now after all the re-reads and discussions on this forum, I feel Dumbledore understood Severus a lot better than I did at the time. He understood that Severus's desperate anxiety to have Sirius kissed and his uncontrolled rage when this did not happen were more to do with his vindictive feelings towards Sirius about past grudges than with Sirius being the betrayer, an attitude Dumbledore would never have sympathised with.
And I did think Snape was unbalanced! So is he or not? (Julia)
I think what DD meant was, he was not stark raving mad as Fudge seemed to think.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 13, 2008 8:19 pm (#2451 of 2617)
I guess what I was saying is that I don't think Snape wants to know about Dumbledore's inner demons or personal struggles with intimacy. I think he gets precisely what he needs from Dumbledore - whatever that might be. For his part, Dumbledore seems to know what this is and gives it.
When Dumbledore tells Fudge, "No, he's just had a great disappointment" I see this exchange exactly like when you're in the grocery store and there is a child just screaming holy murder for whatever reason. The parent just ignores it because he/she knows what the child wants and isn't going to give in. But other people, who don't know the whole story, are glaring at the parent like, "Dude! What's up with your kid?"
(Whew! Hope that makes sense.... )
I'm afraid I disagree about Snape "revering" Lily. I think he might objectify her, which is quite different.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 13, 2008 8:29 pm (#2452 of 2617)
Children need adults (parents) they can look up to, parents they can imagine as perfect beings. Adolescents, however, start seeing their parents as ordinary mortals with their own faults and everything and they can even be very critical towards them. Ideally, later their opinion becomes balanced and realistic. (This is what happens to Harry both with James and with DD.) Julia H
Is it possible that Snape went through a similiar thing with Lily? Lily gives him acceptance and guidence up till he is 15. Then she rejects him. If her rejection of him (Worst Memory incident)is wrong (or not quite as noble as we might want to believe) then around this point Snape sees her off her pedestal and might be more critical of her. So he has to go through a period of disillusionment till he comes to his senses. At some point he realizes that even if she were wrong for rejecting him, she does not deserve to die.
just a thought, no particular canon evidence.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2008 12:57 pm (#2453 of 2617)
I never thought of the Worst Memory as Lily rejecting Snape.
It sounds like she had been encouraged to drop him as a friend for years, but she stuck with him.
He was the one that screwed up by calling her "Mudblood" - That was the last straw.
She couldn't possibly be friends with him anymore. Even if he had told her from day one how he felt, the use of that word blew it all.
It seems to me that one of Snape's problems was that Lily never did come off that pedestal.
Julia H. - Jun 14, 2008 2:46 pm (#2454 of 2617)
I think what DD meant was, he was not stark raving mad as Fudge seemed to think. (Mona)
Fudge probably thinks it is typical DD to have this unbalanced or "stark raving mad" person on the staff besides the half-giant and the werewolf.
I see this exchange exactly like when you're in the grocery store and there is a child just screaming holy murder for whatever reason. (Quinn)
I like the comparison. Luckily, there is a difference though: The child in the shop will probably not stop when told so by the parent. In fact, a child is somewhat more likely to stop (my experience only) when strangers start speaking to him/her about the situation. (There are always adults who take the opportunity to show the parent what to do. ) Snape, however, does not at all mind Fudge (Minister or not) but stops shouting and leaves when DD says enough. (After all, despite his arrested development, he is not a two-year-old. ) This scene really shows how well DD (and only DD) can control him or how DD can make him control himself. (It would have been interesting to read about the conversation they were bound to have later.)
PeskyPixie - Jun 14, 2008 2:52 pm (#2455 of 2617)
"It would have been interesting to read about the conversation they were bound to have later." -Julia
I've wondered about that as well. Do they talk about it or pretend it never happened, or is it irrelevant when Severus's Dark Mark begins to tingle in a few days? (I still haven't worked out the timeline from Pettigrew's escape to Voldy's rudimentary body.)
Julia H. - Jun 14, 2008 3:04 pm (#2456 of 2617)
I guess DD would at least tell Snape at some point that Sirius was innocent, that he was not the traitor. It would be absolutely relevant because of Pettigrew's escape and possible return to Voldemort. Then this could easily start a longer conversation. (Snape probably has a lot to say about Sirius.)
Perhaps the Dark Mark did not start tingling so soon. First Pettigrew had to make that rudimentary body for Voldemort and it may have taken him some time. He also had to search for him first.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2008 3:36 pm (#2457 of 2617)
Snape, however, does not at all mind Fudge (Minister or not) but stops shouting and leaves when DD says enough. (Julia)
Here's what I think was going on at that moment.
It seems almost certain that Hermione's teachers would know that she was using a timeturner that year. They'd have to know, if for no other reason than that teachers would begin to realize, from staff room chatter or whatever, that she was in someone else's class at the same time she was in theirs. So it was probably info given to all of her teachers.
When Snape and Fudge enter the hospital with Snape furious at Sirius' escape, Snape is convinced that Harry had something to do with it. What does Dumbledore do? He mentions to Snape and Fudge that Harry had been in the hospital the whole time and the only way Harry could have helped in Sirius' escape was if he had been in two places at once. And there is Hermione standing there as well, the student that teachers know had a timeturner that year.
Fudge may not be personally aware of a particular student at Hogwarts using a timeturner that year, although it was something that had to have Ministry approved. Or Fudge may simply have forgotten for the moment. But Snape almost certainly did know. So the moment DD made that comment, Snape could put two and two together and realize that DD was cluing him in to the fact that Hermione's timeturner had been involved in Sirius' escape, that DD must therefore have been involved as well, and Snape better be quiet right now or risk some sort of investigation that could blow the whole thing wide open, with not only Harry and Hermione's part in it, but DD's as well.
And Snape, still furious, immediately stops and then leaves the room. But he leaves the room having been given a "heads up" that DD had approved of and somehow been instrumental in Sirius' escape.
I imagine Dumbledore told him all about Peter Pettigrew later.
Julia H. - Jun 14, 2008 3:48 pm (#2458 of 2617)
Edited Jun 14, 2008 5:08 pm
I think you are right, Wynnleaf. In fact, Snape even seems to realize something after DD's comment because he seems to be shocked. I guess, with Fudge gone, a conversation between them was inevitable.
So that means that the two people who "know" Snape (to whatever degree they did know him well), are viewed by him as these paragons, which, being human, they weren't. So where does that leave him, knowing how far he falls short and the degree of his guilt? (Wynnleaf)
Yes, exactly.
To mention another aspect, it is a terrible fate that he first inadvertently though not innocently brings mortal danger on one of these two people, who then dies, and later he has to kill the other one of these two people, not because he wants to but at the person's own request. These are the two people he most admires and respects and he plays a part in their deaths even though he would not want to harm either of them. In the first case, he is guilty. In the second case, his motivations are pure but his guilt about Lily may come to be connected to DD's death as well. Perhaps.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2008 6:11 pm (#2459 of 2617)
Poor guy. From a literary standpoint, he pretty much had to die after all that.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 14, 2008 8:01 pm (#2460 of 2617)
I never thought of the Worst Memory as Lily rejecting Snape. Haymoni
not being very precise here. When Harry sees the memories that Snape gave him, one of the memories was the worst memory one. What Harry didn't see the first time around but sees in DH is what happens directly after it--where Lily tells him it's over. Too me this is the reason it is Snape's worst memory
It sounds like she had been encouraged to drop him as a friend for years, but she stuck with him.
agreed.
He was the one that screwed up by calling her "Mudblood" - That was the last straw. She couldn't possibly be friends with him anymore. Even if he had told her from day one how he felt, the use of that word blew it all. Haymoni
possibly some nit picking but generally agree.
It seems to me that one of Snape's problems was that Lily never did come off that pedestal. Haymoni
If Lily didn't come off the pedestal, then it would have to mean that deep down Snape knew she was right.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2008 9:30 pm (#2461 of 2617)
Yup.
He chastises Phineas for using "Mudblood" - whether that was because he had finally seen the light or it brought back The Worst Memory, I don't know.
Wiser folks that I honed in on the fact that Jo called that chapter "Snape's Worst Memory". There was much speculation as to why it was The Worst way before we saw the other side of the conversation. As I recall, they came to the right conclusion way before Book 7 came out.
mona amon - Jun 14, 2008 9:50 pm (#2462 of 2617)
whether that was because he had finally seen the light or it brought back The Worst Memory, I don't know.
Or maybe he never was really into the pureblood thing, just spouting the party line at that time, calling muggleborns 'mudbloods' along with his friends. Calling Lily a mudblood is different. It's something that just slipped out in his rage and humiliation, as Harry concludes. I see no evidence that he actually believed in pure blood supremacy at any point of his life.
Julia H. - Jun 15, 2008 12:59 am (#2463 of 2617)
Or maybe he never was really into the pureblood thing, just spouting the party line at that time, calling muggleborns 'mudbloods' along with his friends. Calling Lily a mudblood is different. It's something that just slipped out in his rage and humiliation, as Harry concludes. I see no evidence that he actually believed in pure blood supramacy at any point of his life. (Mona)
I totally agree. I think it matters that in the last memory scene he rejects the word. By this time readers know how he feels about Lily all along so perhaps the purpose why Jo shows us that Snape rejects that word is not so much to remind the reader once again how painful these memories are to him (we have just seen him crying while reading Lily's letter) but to reveal that he understands the tragic mistakes of his youth and consciously rejects everything associated with pureblood/DE ideology.
Solitaire - Jun 15, 2008 7:11 pm (#2464 of 2617)
I never thought of the Worst Memory as Lily rejecting Snape.
Once I learned of his love for Lily, I figured his worst memory must have been what he himself had done: he'd called a good friend, whom he has since professed to have always loved, a Mudblood.
Have you ever deliberately said something hurtful to someone you love, out of your own hurt or anger? If so, how do you feel? Guilty and ashamed, most likely ... especially if the thing you have said is not really how you feel.
Solitaire
Edit: I posted as I was reading, and I see Julia has said pretty much the same thing, as have others.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 15, 2008 7:31 pm (#2465 of 2617)
That has always been my interpretation as well, Solitaire.
PeskyPixie - Jun 16, 2008 3:47 pm (#2466 of 2617)
Aw shucks, it's so disappointing when everyone agrees on this thread!
Solitaire - Jun 16, 2008 3:56 pm (#2467 of 2617)
ROTFL, Pesky! At least you don't have to be disappointed very often! We hardly ever agree on anything here! LOL
Solitaire
Anna L. Black - Jun 17, 2008 1:43 pm (#2468 of 2617)
Just wanted to pop in to say that the "Good Will Hunting" analogy works really well. It's been a while since I've seen that movie, so I don't remember the details, but I agree with wynnleaf that there are a lot of similarities with Snape. (Oh my, another agreement! ) Now I want to see the movie again
Oh, and I would've commented earlier, but I -- again -- had to catch up on a lot of posts here
Quinn Crockett - Jun 17, 2008 7:10 pm (#2469 of 2617)
Sirius tells Harry that he had never heard tell of Snape having been a Death Eater. "Not that that means much" he amends. Considering their school experience and their ongoing animosity toward one another, doesn't it seem strange that Sirius should almost defend Harry's accusation against Snape here? What do people make of this?
mona amon - Jun 17, 2008 9:05 pm (#2470 of 2617)
Sirius actually feels that Snape could have been a DE, given his fascination with the dark arts and the fact that he was once part of a gang of Slytherins who all became DEs, but he has no proof since Snape was never publicly accused of being a Death Eater, and what's more, he believes (wrongly as it turns out) that however trusting Dumbledore may be, he would never allow an ex Death Eater to teach at Hogwarts.
Orion, you crack me up! We must keep a close eye on Julia and make sure she doesn't wander off too far!
Mona, I include Neville with HRH (i.e. Snape seems to feel that he has personal reasons for loathing them). Snape hates Ron and Hermione because they are Harry's buddies and I think that his dislike of Neville may initially be a reaction to Neville's very existence. If only he and his family had perished, Sev's Lily may be alive today. Very unfair, but I wouldn't put it past our Potions Master.
Apart from these nutty personal vendettas, I don't think Snape bullies any of his students. Can anyone come up with any incidents I may have missed?
ETA: LOL, cross-posted with Julia.
Dryleaves - Jun 12, 2008 1:15 pm (#2432 of 2617)
I thought he just considered Neville hopelessly stupid. I mean, doesn't he melt down his cauldron during the very first potions class or something like that? Snape then states that Neville is an idiot and then poor, insecure Neville insists on constantly proving the truth of this statement as long as he takes potions. I don't think Snape needs another reason than that.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 12, 2008 8:09 pm (#2433 of 2617)
As usual this thread moves so quickly. I just want to say that I was fascinated with the discussion of empathy, how it is different from sympathy and compassion and how it might be possible for a psychopath like Voldemort might be empathetic but not compassionate nor sympathetic.
Ok back to regular discussion.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 12, 2008 10:15 pm (#2434 of 2617)
Indeed, Rambkowalczyk (that's a bit of a mouthful in English ). I think it is an important because it is through empathy - that is, an intellectual understanding of someone else's emotional experience - that Voldemort is able to emulate "proper" behavior in certain situations without actually ever feeling it himself.
It's interesting because Snape sometimes seems similar in the way he knows just where someone's most sensitive spot is and has no qualms about repeatedly poking that spot with a sharp stick. However, I think it's also pretty clear that Snape is extremely sensitive himself. What do people make of this?
I guess I think it's strange that he should be so close to Dumbledore and not have learned a bit of balance. Maybe it's just as simple as what Dryleaves mentioned about sort of automatically regressing because of being at Hogwarts all the time.
Julia H. - Jun 13, 2008 3:50 am (#2435 of 2617)
Good observations and questions, Quinn. This automatic regressing at Hogwarts is probably a very important reason.
I think it's strange that he should be so close to Dumbledore and not have learned a bit of balance. (Quinn)
I guess, there are things which are not automatically corrected due to the presence of a more balanced person (especially if other circumstances reinforce the old tendencies). Yet, DD's presence and their relationship may very well influence Snape's personality and it is a very interesting question how.
The way I see is DD, when he decides to help Snape get out of the abyss, becomes in a way responsible for him. It is as said in The Little Prince: "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." DD decides to "tame" Snape and accepts the responsibility for him and I think he lives up to this responsibility in many ways. He protects him, he probably - at last - takes a positive interest in him, he stands by him when Lily dies and shows him a way to go on, he puts up with his faults and so on. Yes, they are close, or more precisely, he lets Snape open up to him and takes the time to get to know him. However, just as we see DD remain a bit distant for Harry most of the time, he probably keeps a similar distance from Snape (maybe less so, I don't know) in many respects. I don't think, for example, that he ever lets Snape know that he has also experienced grief and mourning and even guilt. As Snape knows him, DD probably seems to be too perfect, too powerful, too wise to really learn from the example he is setting to him. (This changes suddenly at the moment when Snape is saving DD's life, though.) Also, DD has lots of other things to do, so Snape is probably often left alone to cope with his everyday problems, just like Harry (and his everyday problems are rather serious).
In reality, as we know, DD is not at all perfect and can make mistakes. I have already said that he seems to do nothing to stop the developing enmity between Snape and Harry before it is too late. He does not even put down Transfiguration Today. Still, it goes to DD's credit that the scene also indicates Snape feels he can talk to DD about things that bother him. Even if nothing really therapeutic happens, DD lets Snape talk at least; they are close enough for Snape to rant in DD's office and for DD to feel quite comfortable with his paper while talking to him. That must be very important to Snape, since DD is the only person he can open up to.
In the end-of-book conversation of OOTP, DD seems to know how and why the occlumency lessons ended without Harry telling him. Of course, ha could have heard the details from Sirius or Lupin but he seems to sympathize with Snape so much that it seems he must have talked about it with him at some point.
But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing...
From this and from the fact that while he repeatedly tries to make Snape see the good (or Lily) in Harry, we never see DD try to change Snape's feeling towards James (except when he scolds Snape for not caring about the lives of all of the Potters) and he never seems to blame Snape for not forgiving James, as if he understood, for example, the long-term traumatizing effect of the Worst Memory (with and without Lily) and possibly the prank and maybe even this arrested emotional development we are talking about and knew these things could not be easily changed at will. Then again, in other cases, DD seems to effectively manipulate Snape by means of his guilt, which is yet another (more questionable) aspect of their relationship. On the whole, he cannot make Snape a happier person although he helps him change his life and his morals and gives him the trust and the responsibility necessary for him to grow up. Yet, while DD lives, Snape is so much dependent on him that it may actually hamper his growing up - but then again Snape may just need DD and his guidance most of this time. In the end, before DD dies, he leaves a terrible burden to Snape but by this time Snape has grown enough to learn to cope with it alone.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 13, 2008 4:43 am (#2436 of 2617)
but then again Snape may just need DD and his guidance most of this time.
Maybe Snape was always looking for guidance (as well as love). Snape the teenager is described like a plant with out sunlight, sunlight that would guide a plant to grow up (as well as nurture him).
I've argued way back when that Lily is like a mother figure to Snape more so than a girl friend. What I mean by this is that a) generally speaking she loved him unconditionally and b) she gave him a set of morals to live by. She always made it clear what was right and what was wrong. Lily, not his parents, not Dumbledore was his moral beacon.
One might say that Lily didn't love Snape unconditionally because she didn't understand why Snape used the Mudblood word and that she should have cut him some slack in that instance.
But I think in this case Snape rightly interpreted her sense of right and wrong. I think he saw her rejection of him as a rejection of his choice to become a Death Eater and not a rejection of him as a person although emotionally he couldn't tell the difference. If he saw the rejection as Lily doesn't love him anymore, I doubt he would have wanted to save her as much as he did.
Dryleaves - Jun 13, 2008 5:06 am (#2437 of 2617)
'Fellow seems quite unbalanced,' said Fudge, staring after him. I'd watch out for him, if I were you, Dumbledore.
'Oh, he's not unbalanced,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'He's just suffered a severe disappointment.' (PoA, Ch 22, when Sirius has escaped)
This quote just crossed my mind, so I wanted to post it, without making any particular points about it, other than that it shows that DD has a certain understanding of Snape, while other people, especially Harry, of course, seem to think like Fudge.
I think Julia makes good points about the relationship between Snape and DD. I use to imagine that Snape went to talk to DD about the occlumency-lessons and Harry's intrusion into his memories. Besides the fact that DD knows about it and seems understanding, I also think Snape would tell him that he couldn't go on with the lessons as he had first promised DD to teach Harry.
Orion - Jun 13, 2008 5:50 am (#2438 of 2617)
DD can shut up. He's the headmaster who doesn't raise a finger when Snape gets almost killed in the Prank. Why does Snape trust him? He knows very well from experience that DD doesn't care sod-all for his life. And that's exactly how it turns out in the end.
DD with his Transfiguration Today is not relaxed in Snape's presence, he's bored to tears and lets Snape's rant wash over his head. Where's the guidance in that?
Edited to add: Wynnleaf, that's a good catch with the stretcher for Sirius. I never noticed that.
Julia H. - Jun 13, 2008 6:50 am (#2439 of 2617)
I've argued way back when that Lily is like a mother figure to Snape more so than a girl friend. (Ramb)
Hm...interesting... (Then this would be the kind of relationship that has no future from the very first moment on.) Need to think about it more.
But I think in this case Snape rightly interpreted her sense of right and wrong. I think he saw her rejection of him as a rejection of his choice to become a Death Eater and not a rejection of him as a person although emotionally he couldn't tell the difference.
I don't quite understand this. Did he know the difference or not? Besides, I don't think that Snape had chosen to be a DE by that point. Lily may have seen it so but I see nothing else but Snape being a Slytherin, interested in Dark things and wanting to be loyal to his house mates, picking up their language and behaviour patterns. His problem seems to be at this age that he ignores the necessity to choose.
'Fellow seems quite unbalanced,' said Fudge, staring after him. I'd watch out for him, if I were you, Dumbledore.
'Oh, he's not unbalanced,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'He's just suffered a severe disappointment.'
And I did think Snape was unbalanced! So is he or not?
Orion, that is what I expected from you! I understand it and you may be totally right about the newspaper scene. However, DD did have a positive influence on Snape even though the things you point out are totally valid. No, he is not the ideal father figure and I did not want to imply this. Still, he is better than anything else Snape ever had. Anyway, I think their relationship is worth a discussion and it would be more interesting to see both the positive and negative sides (from Snape's point of view) than just dismiss the whole thing as rubbish. I don't have any definite answers but I think DD's influence on Snape is, in the plot, something that is just below the surface of the actual story, deep enough to be exciting but (probably) close enough to the surface to be analyzed.
Dryleaves - Jun 13, 2008 7:32 am (#2440 of 2617)
And I did think Snape was unbalanced! So is he or not? (Julia)
Not according to DD, anyway.
Orion, I can see your point too. But I think this relationship is a bit more complex (or it is just me being ambivalent ). For example, when DD tells Snape that Harry must die, it becomes clear to Snape that he has been used by DD. Still, when DD tells him this, his use of Snape is not over - in fact he needs him more than ever in a near future, so maybe there is some honesty and respect after all? In some parts of DH I think DD is very cold towards Snape, but I think there are some examples in earlier books where he shows that he cares about him.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2008 8:42 am (#2441 of 2617)
Orion, we don't know for certain what Dumbledore's response was to the Prank. For all we know, Sirius was punished quite a bit for it. Just because said punishment had no effect on Sirius doesn't mean it didn't occur. And DD couldn't expell Sirius without exposing Lupin, which wouldn't have been fair to Lupin.
And later, as far as how much DD cared for Snape's life, yes he does have Snape do a lot of risky things for the Order and to fulfill that "anything!" promise. But Snape seems quite ready and willing, and as the leader of the Order, Dumbledore had to put many in the "line of fire" so to speak. I don't like it that Dumbledore did not appear to have given Snape info about the Elder Wand, even after DD should have been able to deduce that LV would be trying to get it and master it, but DD tended, in my opinion, to hold far too many cards too "close to his chest" and this doesn't necessarily show a specific disregard for Snape.
---------------------
Has anyone ever seen the film, "Good Will Hunting"? I watched it for the first time last night and much of it relates quite well to Snape and some of our recent discussions.
In the film, Will Hunting is a brilliant 20 year old from a poor and very rough background. We gradually learn that he came from an abusive/neglected parental and foster-parent background and was also bullied as a child by other kids. By his teens he has gotten into quite a bit of trouble in various fights. He has become a person who faces the world by using his gifted mind and wit to insult and verbally abuse others primarily as a mode of defense. We learn that he does this because very deep down he is trying to drive people away from himself. Of course, he doesn't admit this to himself, but we gradually learn that he has so many issues and deep within feels that if he allows anyone "inside" they will reject him. So he forces them to reject him quickly by his offensive manner. He does have some friends or associates, but even they are not really allowed to know him deeply.
In one of the few physical confrontations of the film, there is a place where the 20 year old Will sees a fellow who used to bully him as a child and Will goes and picks a fight with him. The viewer gets the sense that Will's rage at this old bully isn't just for a school-boy grudge, but for his whole past, of which the bully is in part only a symbol.
A brilliant mathematician comes to know and appreciate Will's gifts and wants mentor him in mathematics (he exceeds his mentor's abilities, by the way). The mentor finally gets him to a psychiatrist who can help, after Will has driven off 5 other psychs. It is the psychiatrist (Robin Williams) who is finally able to gain Will's trust, in part by being himself very vulnerable to Will and exposing his own past which mirrors Will's to an extent, and showing Will the need to take the risks of trying to allow at least a select few to know him.
Before this happens however, Will has met a girl who is able to look beneath the surface and appreciate and care for him in spite of his manner, sarcasm, etc. However, as she begins to get closer and closer to him, he begins to use his verbal ability to even push her away, even as he cares more for her than he has ever cared for anyone.
It reminded me a great deal of what we've discussed about Snape. Various posters have theorized that Snape's offensive, sarcastic, harsh manner is a defensive thing to keep anyone from getting close and risking their rejection of his inner self, because years of rejection as a child (from his parent's neglect and possible abuse of his father) have taught him that he's going to be rejected anyway. We have discussed whether or not he couldn't just grow up and put these issues behind him, as though that's just a choice he could either make or not make. In "Good Will Hunting" we are told that it's not so much a choice for Will, as it is the ability to see with clarity his own past and the reasons for why he is as he is. And it takes not simply years or maturity for Will to come to this understanding, but a long period of therapy with an excellent counselor who gains his trust by first being open and vulnerable with him.
In our discussions about Snape, we wonder what his relationship with Dumbledore could have done to change Snape. If Snape's motivations were anything like Will Hunting, I'd expect Dumbledore to only be able to help Snape with his relationship problems (to students and adults alike) if he did open up his past and become vulnerable to Snape. But as others have mentioned, my impression is that Dumbledore did not reveal to Snape some of their similarities -- that is, Dumbledore's own mistakes, the deaths on his own conscious, his personal temptations, etc., and so Snape may have always assumed that Dumbledore was sort of "perfect".
In "Good Will Hunting", Will has a problem in placing those he likes on a kind of pedestal, assuming them almost perfect, and when their imperfections are revealed, it gives him yet another excuse to keep up barriers between himself and that person. Also, because he assumes a kind of perfection in those he likes, he also assumes they will reject his true self, if he revealed it. This reminded me of Snape's view of Lily, which, in my opinion, was to view Lily as though she was on some sort of pedestal. He seems to almost worship her, and after her death she is able to be this incredible symbol or standard of goodness in part because he saw her as so purely good. That's not spelled out in the DH, of course, and is only my impression.
By the way, in spite of giving a lot of the "Good Will Hunting" away, there is much more to it and if you haven't seen it, you should. Matt Damon and Ben Afleck wrote the script while at Harvard (as I recall) and worked several years to get it produced and finally won an Academy Award for the screenplay. I should add a warning, however, that it has a lot of pretty bad language.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 13, 2008 9:40 am (#2442 of 2617)
But I think in this case Snape rightly interpreted her sense of right and wrong. I think he saw her rejection of him as a rejection of his choice to become a Death Eater and not a rejection of him as a person although emotionally he couldn't tell the difference.(Ramb)
I don't quite understand this. Did he know the difference or not? Besides, I don't think that Snape had chosen to be a DE by that point. Lily may have seen it so but I see nothing else but Snape being a Slytherin, interested in Dark things and wanting to be loyal to his house mates, picking up their language and behavior patterns. His problem seems to be at this age that he ignores the necessity to choose. Julia H
I understand this argument and it does seem unfair to me that Lily rejects him on the grounds of being a Death Eater. The question as to why does James get away with it and Severus doesn't isn't really answered. But although Snape is clearly hurt by this, I find it surprising that Snape doesn't seek revenge on Lily that he doesn't try to argue that it is her fault or that she should pay. I think it's because deep down inside he knows she's right.
Also, because he assumes a kind of perfection in those he likes, he also assumes they will reject his true self, if he revealed it. wynnleaf
Does Severus see Lily as perfect? Has she rejected Snape's true self? I've argued that she has only rejected Snape's choice to follow Death Eaters. Does Snape realize that at that time? I am not so sure. Maybe when he knows that Voldemort has targeted her, he understands the distinction and it is because of this that he can try to save her.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2008 9:49 am (#2443 of 2617)
I'd like to add that I think that Dumbledore himself did not "let people in" or show his own vulnerabilities to others, and therefore apparently never shared some of his greatest feelings of guilt or shame, the death of his sister, etc. with anyone. Doge, for instance, is supposed to be a friend, but doesn't seem to know much of the real explanations behind DD's past.
If DD is himself a person who puts up barriers between himself and others -- except his perhaps being his eccentric manner and secret keeping -- it seems unlikely that he'd have opened up to Snape or ben any sort of mentor in regards Snape learning how to deal with others.
I don't include the scene of DD reading the journal while Snape rants about Harry as any particular evidence of DD not giving enough attention to Snape's needs. On the contrary, I see it as a response coming from many, many previous rants by Snape on various students or other topics. I imagine Snape has gone on for years about various things to DD and DD probably heard the one about Harry and thought "Severus is on a rant again. Oh well." Which seems to be what's going on at the end of POA as well. DD is so used to Snape and his temper that Snape's fury over Sirius' escape does not seem unhinged to DD.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2008 9:54 am (#2444 of 2617)
Does Severus see Lily as perfect? Has she rejected Snape's true self? I've argued that she has only rejected Snape's choice to follow Death Eaters. (ramb)
Perhaps you're misunderstanding me. I don't mean that Snape would be right about people rejecting him if took down the barriers he puts up, but that he might assume that. I was trying to point out that the background in Will Hunting's story is much the same and it is very believable that his harsh manner is a defense mechanism. If Snape's is a defense mechanism as well, it is a defense against what he assumes will happen, not necessarily what will happen.
As for Lily, she may have seen the "true Snape" -- I think we're to believe that he was more open with her. And she rejected him. Granted, it was supposedly for his Dark friends (although I think she was rejecting him for many things, not just that), but Snape apparently didn't see that she was rejecting him for that, because he couldn't see the difference in his friends who she objected to, and the Marauders. He was later able to accept that she rejected him over the "mudblood" comment, but that doesn't mean that he truly understood what she saw as so wrong about everything else. Further, he probably wouldn't, at that point, see the difference in her rejecting the associations he was making, versus rejecting him personally.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 13, 2008 10:33 am (#2445 of 2617)
Oh, is that what that movie was about? I just remember looking at my watch several times.
I don't think we should fault Dumbledore too much for not sharing his personal demons with Snape. He doesn't seem to have shared them with anyone, really. But more than that, I would say that Dumbledore recognizes his role in their relationship and that unleashing his demons early on would be ... counter-productive.
What I mean is that Dumbledore seems fully aware that Snape has him on a sort of pedestal. But if Dumbledore were to step down he really wouldn't be helping Snape by doing so. Snape, up until about HBP anyway, needs Dumbledore to be up there. He needs to have something to strive toward, someone "above" him that he can look up to. If Dumbledore were to reveal that he is nothing more than an old man with a lot of hangups, I think that would be pretty devastating to Snape's precarious little psyche.
But I think Rambkowalczyk (do you have a nickname?) makes an excellent observation that Lily didn't reject Severus, the person. She rejected the choice he made (or was well on his way to making) after he all but confirmed it for her by his use of that specific epithet against her. She had tried to discuss it with him, but he, for whatever reason, was unable to hear it.
I don't necessarily agree that he sees Lily as "perfect" since he clearly disapproves of her budding infatuation with James Potter.
Julia H. - Jun 13, 2008 2:24 pm (#2446 of 2617)
He needs to have something to strive toward, someone "above" him that he can look up to. If Dumbledore were to reveal that he is nothing more than an old man with a lot of hangups, I think that would be pretty devastating to Snape's precarious little psyche. (Quinn)
I've been thinking about that and I really could not decide. (I'm not a psychologist anyway.) Yes, Snape definitely needs someone to look up to, however, he also needs that someone close to him. No, I don't think DD should reveal that he is "an old man with a lot of hangups", still a perfect role model is an unreachable role model, which Snape cannot really dream of approaching, and a perfect role model cannot show him that it is possible to improve, it is possible to get over things that Snape should get over and to move on. Maybe his arrested development is a part of the question. I guess Snape could not really look up to his father, probably not really to his mother either. Children need adults (parents) they can look up to, parents they can imagine as perfect beings. Adolescents, however, start seeing their parents as ordinary mortals with their own faults and everything and they can even be very critical towards them. Ideally, later their opinion becomes balanced and realistic. (This is what happens to Harry both with James and with DD.) If Snape, as a child, had nobody to look up to (maybe Lily but she was not an adult), then he may just need to experience this now, as a young adult. However, if this is really so (I wonder if the experience can be the same when it comes so late, arrested development or not), he also has to experience later the "adolescent" stage and I think this happens before and after DD's death.
I don't necessarily agree that he sees Lily as "perfect" since he clearly disapproves of her budding infatuation with James Potter.
Who would not disapprove of his love's "budding infatuation" with another guy? For only that, he can still see her as practically perfect, I think.
Various posters have theorized that Snape's offensive, sarcastic, harsh manner is a defensive thing to keep anyone from getting close and risking their rejection of his inner self, because years of rejection as a child (from his parent's neglect and possible abuse of his father) have taught him that he's going to be rejected anyway. (Wynnleaf)
I think it is very probable and it seems to be very clear in the case of Harry. (By the time Snape reaches his early twenties, his guilt has probably reinforced this basic feeling of being rejected.) Snape is probably absolutely sure that Harry would hate him if he really knew him, so instead of trying to confess, he just makes Harry hate him anyway. Harry is, of course, special in this regard but Snape may very well use essentially similar strategies towards others, if not necessarily with the "purpose" (result) of definite hatred towards him but at least keeping enough distance to prevent anyone from getting to know his "inner self". Then DD is very important as the only person (post-Lily) and the only adult who knows and accepts Snape and (I think) who also lets him know that. It is another question whether emotional insecurity, brought from childhood, can really be changed by that now.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2008 4:11 pm (#2447 of 2617)
I don't think we should fault Dumbledore too much for not sharing his personal demons with Snape. He doesn't seem to have shared them with anyone, really. (Quinn)
Then DD is very important as the only person (post-Lily) and the only adult who knows and accepts Snape and (I think) who also lets him know that. (Julia)
I don't fault DD for not sharing is inner self with Snape and, as Quinn says, he doesn't really share that with anyone except Harry in the afterlife, when, one presumes, it hardly counts as a step forward in character development. I wasn't trying to fault DD for not sharing with Snape, but to comment that because he does not, or cannot share his own inner self, he's hardly the person to mentor Snape into doing so. And if Snape's basic manner of sarcasm and insults is, ultimately, a defense mechanism, then he cannot change until he is able to stop being defensive and keep barriers between himself and the world.
As Julia points out, the only people who seem to know Snape's inner self are also people for whom he probably doesn't know their inner selves or their faults. I say this because 1. Snape seems as an adult to practically revere Lily, so she must be on a kind of pedestal and 2. DD didn't share his inner self, his weaknesses or temptations, so it's unlikely that Snape knew DD in that way. So that means that the two people who "know" Snape (to whatever degree they did know him well), are viewed by him as these paragons, which, being human, they weren't. So where does that leave him, knowing how far he falls short and the degree of his guilt?
Because I think that's a basically unhealthy position for a person to be in longterm, I think it's very unfortunate that DD was unable to share his own more human side (faults and all) with Snape.
PeskyPixie - Jun 13, 2008 5:09 pm (#2448 of 2617)
I wonder if Snape experiences something sort of similar to what Harry goes through once Dumbledore's past comes out ... or maybe he despises Rita Skeeter enough to not care about anything she has to say.
Julia H. - Jun 13, 2008 5:12 pm (#2449 of 2617)
He may. BTW, Lily's old letter also refers to DD's past, even if he does not believe Rita. The Don't worry, Dumbledore just strikes me as a different tone.
mona amon - Jun 13, 2008 8:07 pm (#2450 of 2617)
Good post #2441 Wynnleaf. I havent seen Good Will Hunting, but I've always felt Snape was someone who was afraid to care for people and afraid to allow people to care for him, especially after Lily's rejection. But I never thought about the 'professional help' aspect of it.
Dumbledore is certainly not the right person to give this to him. He seems to be the type of person who likes to leave people alone to sort themselves out.
'Fellow seems quite unbalanced,' said Fudge, staring after him. I'd watch out for him, if I were you, Dumbledore.
'Oh, he's not unbalanced,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'He's just suffered a severe disappointment.' (PoA, Ch 22, when Sirius has escaped)
This quote just crossed my mind, so I wanted to post it, without making any particular points about it, other than that it shows that DD has a certain understanding of Snape, while other people, especially Harry, of course, seem to think like Fudge. (Dryleaves)
After I realised that Snape was in love with Lily (for me this was only after I read the worst memory scene in OOTP), I used to feel that Dumbledore was being extremely callous in that scene, laughing at and enjoying Snape's uncontrolled rage, while the poor man was clearly deranged because the one who betrayed the woman he loved was allowed to escape. But now after all the re-reads and discussions on this forum, I feel Dumbledore understood Severus a lot better than I did at the time. He understood that Severus's desperate anxiety to have Sirius kissed and his uncontrolled rage when this did not happen were more to do with his vindictive feelings towards Sirius about past grudges than with Sirius being the betrayer, an attitude Dumbledore would never have sympathised with.
And I did think Snape was unbalanced! So is he or not? (Julia)
I think what DD meant was, he was not stark raving mad as Fudge seemed to think.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 13, 2008 8:19 pm (#2451 of 2617)
I guess what I was saying is that I don't think Snape wants to know about Dumbledore's inner demons or personal struggles with intimacy. I think he gets precisely what he needs from Dumbledore - whatever that might be. For his part, Dumbledore seems to know what this is and gives it.
When Dumbledore tells Fudge, "No, he's just had a great disappointment" I see this exchange exactly like when you're in the grocery store and there is a child just screaming holy murder for whatever reason. The parent just ignores it because he/she knows what the child wants and isn't going to give in. But other people, who don't know the whole story, are glaring at the parent like, "Dude! What's up with your kid?"
(Whew! Hope that makes sense.... )
I'm afraid I disagree about Snape "revering" Lily. I think he might objectify her, which is quite different.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 13, 2008 8:29 pm (#2452 of 2617)
Children need adults (parents) they can look up to, parents they can imagine as perfect beings. Adolescents, however, start seeing their parents as ordinary mortals with their own faults and everything and they can even be very critical towards them. Ideally, later their opinion becomes balanced and realistic. (This is what happens to Harry both with James and with DD.) Julia H
Is it possible that Snape went through a similiar thing with Lily? Lily gives him acceptance and guidence up till he is 15. Then she rejects him. If her rejection of him (Worst Memory incident)is wrong (or not quite as noble as we might want to believe) then around this point Snape sees her off her pedestal and might be more critical of her. So he has to go through a period of disillusionment till he comes to his senses. At some point he realizes that even if she were wrong for rejecting him, she does not deserve to die.
just a thought, no particular canon evidence.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2008 12:57 pm (#2453 of 2617)
I never thought of the Worst Memory as Lily rejecting Snape.
It sounds like she had been encouraged to drop him as a friend for years, but she stuck with him.
He was the one that screwed up by calling her "Mudblood" - That was the last straw.
She couldn't possibly be friends with him anymore. Even if he had told her from day one how he felt, the use of that word blew it all.
It seems to me that one of Snape's problems was that Lily never did come off that pedestal.
Julia H. - Jun 14, 2008 2:46 pm (#2454 of 2617)
I think what DD meant was, he was not stark raving mad as Fudge seemed to think. (Mona)
Fudge probably thinks it is typical DD to have this unbalanced or "stark raving mad" person on the staff besides the half-giant and the werewolf.
I see this exchange exactly like when you're in the grocery store and there is a child just screaming holy murder for whatever reason. (Quinn)
I like the comparison. Luckily, there is a difference though: The child in the shop will probably not stop when told so by the parent. In fact, a child is somewhat more likely to stop (my experience only) when strangers start speaking to him/her about the situation. (There are always adults who take the opportunity to show the parent what to do. ) Snape, however, does not at all mind Fudge (Minister or not) but stops shouting and leaves when DD says enough. (After all, despite his arrested development, he is not a two-year-old. ) This scene really shows how well DD (and only DD) can control him or how DD can make him control himself. (It would have been interesting to read about the conversation they were bound to have later.)
PeskyPixie - Jun 14, 2008 2:52 pm (#2455 of 2617)
"It would have been interesting to read about the conversation they were bound to have later." -Julia
I've wondered about that as well. Do they talk about it or pretend it never happened, or is it irrelevant when Severus's Dark Mark begins to tingle in a few days? (I still haven't worked out the timeline from Pettigrew's escape to Voldy's rudimentary body.)
Julia H. - Jun 14, 2008 3:04 pm (#2456 of 2617)
I guess DD would at least tell Snape at some point that Sirius was innocent, that he was not the traitor. It would be absolutely relevant because of Pettigrew's escape and possible return to Voldemort. Then this could easily start a longer conversation. (Snape probably has a lot to say about Sirius.)
Perhaps the Dark Mark did not start tingling so soon. First Pettigrew had to make that rudimentary body for Voldemort and it may have taken him some time. He also had to search for him first.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2008 3:36 pm (#2457 of 2617)
Snape, however, does not at all mind Fudge (Minister or not) but stops shouting and leaves when DD says enough. (Julia)
Here's what I think was going on at that moment.
It seems almost certain that Hermione's teachers would know that she was using a timeturner that year. They'd have to know, if for no other reason than that teachers would begin to realize, from staff room chatter or whatever, that she was in someone else's class at the same time she was in theirs. So it was probably info given to all of her teachers.
When Snape and Fudge enter the hospital with Snape furious at Sirius' escape, Snape is convinced that Harry had something to do with it. What does Dumbledore do? He mentions to Snape and Fudge that Harry had been in the hospital the whole time and the only way Harry could have helped in Sirius' escape was if he had been in two places at once. And there is Hermione standing there as well, the student that teachers know had a timeturner that year.
Fudge may not be personally aware of a particular student at Hogwarts using a timeturner that year, although it was something that had to have Ministry approved. Or Fudge may simply have forgotten for the moment. But Snape almost certainly did know. So the moment DD made that comment, Snape could put two and two together and realize that DD was cluing him in to the fact that Hermione's timeturner had been involved in Sirius' escape, that DD must therefore have been involved as well, and Snape better be quiet right now or risk some sort of investigation that could blow the whole thing wide open, with not only Harry and Hermione's part in it, but DD's as well.
And Snape, still furious, immediately stops and then leaves the room. But he leaves the room having been given a "heads up" that DD had approved of and somehow been instrumental in Sirius' escape.
I imagine Dumbledore told him all about Peter Pettigrew later.
Julia H. - Jun 14, 2008 3:48 pm (#2458 of 2617)
Edited Jun 14, 2008 5:08 pm
I think you are right, Wynnleaf. In fact, Snape even seems to realize something after DD's comment because he seems to be shocked. I guess, with Fudge gone, a conversation between them was inevitable.
So that means that the two people who "know" Snape (to whatever degree they did know him well), are viewed by him as these paragons, which, being human, they weren't. So where does that leave him, knowing how far he falls short and the degree of his guilt? (Wynnleaf)
Yes, exactly.
To mention another aspect, it is a terrible fate that he first inadvertently though not innocently brings mortal danger on one of these two people, who then dies, and later he has to kill the other one of these two people, not because he wants to but at the person's own request. These are the two people he most admires and respects and he plays a part in their deaths even though he would not want to harm either of them. In the first case, he is guilty. In the second case, his motivations are pure but his guilt about Lily may come to be connected to DD's death as well. Perhaps.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2008 6:11 pm (#2459 of 2617)
Poor guy. From a literary standpoint, he pretty much had to die after all that.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 14, 2008 8:01 pm (#2460 of 2617)
I never thought of the Worst Memory as Lily rejecting Snape. Haymoni
not being very precise here. When Harry sees the memories that Snape gave him, one of the memories was the worst memory one. What Harry didn't see the first time around but sees in DH is what happens directly after it--where Lily tells him it's over. Too me this is the reason it is Snape's worst memory
It sounds like she had been encouraged to drop him as a friend for years, but she stuck with him.
agreed.
He was the one that screwed up by calling her "Mudblood" - That was the last straw. She couldn't possibly be friends with him anymore. Even if he had told her from day one how he felt, the use of that word blew it all. Haymoni
possibly some nit picking but generally agree.
It seems to me that one of Snape's problems was that Lily never did come off that pedestal. Haymoni
If Lily didn't come off the pedestal, then it would have to mean that deep down Snape knew she was right.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2008 9:30 pm (#2461 of 2617)
Yup.
He chastises Phineas for using "Mudblood" - whether that was because he had finally seen the light or it brought back The Worst Memory, I don't know.
Wiser folks that I honed in on the fact that Jo called that chapter "Snape's Worst Memory". There was much speculation as to why it was The Worst way before we saw the other side of the conversation. As I recall, they came to the right conclusion way before Book 7 came out.
mona amon - Jun 14, 2008 9:50 pm (#2462 of 2617)
whether that was because he had finally seen the light or it brought back The Worst Memory, I don't know.
Or maybe he never was really into the pureblood thing, just spouting the party line at that time, calling muggleborns 'mudbloods' along with his friends. Calling Lily a mudblood is different. It's something that just slipped out in his rage and humiliation, as Harry concludes. I see no evidence that he actually believed in pure blood supremacy at any point of his life.
Julia H. - Jun 15, 2008 12:59 am (#2463 of 2617)
Or maybe he never was really into the pureblood thing, just spouting the party line at that time, calling muggleborns 'mudbloods' along with his friends. Calling Lily a mudblood is different. It's something that just slipped out in his rage and humiliation, as Harry concludes. I see no evidence that he actually believed in pure blood supramacy at any point of his life. (Mona)
I totally agree. I think it matters that in the last memory scene he rejects the word. By this time readers know how he feels about Lily all along so perhaps the purpose why Jo shows us that Snape rejects that word is not so much to remind the reader once again how painful these memories are to him (we have just seen him crying while reading Lily's letter) but to reveal that he understands the tragic mistakes of his youth and consciously rejects everything associated with pureblood/DE ideology.
Solitaire - Jun 15, 2008 7:11 pm (#2464 of 2617)
I never thought of the Worst Memory as Lily rejecting Snape.
Once I learned of his love for Lily, I figured his worst memory must have been what he himself had done: he'd called a good friend, whom he has since professed to have always loved, a Mudblood.
Have you ever deliberately said something hurtful to someone you love, out of your own hurt or anger? If so, how do you feel? Guilty and ashamed, most likely ... especially if the thing you have said is not really how you feel.
Solitaire
Edit: I posted as I was reading, and I see Julia has said pretty much the same thing, as have others.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 15, 2008 7:31 pm (#2465 of 2617)
That has always been my interpretation as well, Solitaire.
PeskyPixie - Jun 16, 2008 3:47 pm (#2466 of 2617)
Aw shucks, it's so disappointing when everyone agrees on this thread!
Solitaire - Jun 16, 2008 3:56 pm (#2467 of 2617)
ROTFL, Pesky! At least you don't have to be disappointed very often! We hardly ever agree on anything here! LOL
Solitaire
Anna L. Black - Jun 17, 2008 1:43 pm (#2468 of 2617)
Just wanted to pop in to say that the "Good Will Hunting" analogy works really well. It's been a while since I've seen that movie, so I don't remember the details, but I agree with wynnleaf that there are a lot of similarities with Snape. (Oh my, another agreement! ) Now I want to see the movie again
Oh, and I would've commented earlier, but I -- again -- had to catch up on a lot of posts here
Quinn Crockett - Jun 17, 2008 7:10 pm (#2469 of 2617)
Sirius tells Harry that he had never heard tell of Snape having been a Death Eater. "Not that that means much" he amends. Considering their school experience and their ongoing animosity toward one another, doesn't it seem strange that Sirius should almost defend Harry's accusation against Snape here? What do people make of this?
mona amon - Jun 17, 2008 9:05 pm (#2470 of 2617)
Sirius actually feels that Snape could have been a DE, given his fascination with the dark arts and the fact that he was once part of a gang of Slytherins who all became DEs, but he has no proof since Snape was never publicly accused of being a Death Eater, and what's more, he believes (wrongly as it turns out) that however trusting Dumbledore may be, he would never allow an ex Death Eater to teach at Hogwarts.
Last edited by Mona on Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:54 am; edited 2 times in total
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Soul Search - Jun 18, 2008 11:35 am (#2471 of 2617)
We have, at times, asked why the emphasis on "Half-Blood Prince." It was a book title, Snape whote in in his potions book, and then the Deathly Hallows chapter title "The Prince's Tale." Yet, the concept doesn't quite live up to its billing in the storyline. I have always thought I was missing something.
In HBP, "The White Tower," Hermione relates to Harry her research on Snape and "Prince:"
"Snape must have been proud of being 'half a Prince,' ... Tobias Snape was a Muggle ..."
Harry responds:
"He'd play up the pure-blood side so he could get in with Lucius Malfoy and the rest of them. ... He's just like Voldemort. Pure-blood mother, Muggle father ... ashamed of his parentage, trying to make himself feared using the Dark Arts, gave himself an impressive new name -- Lord Voldemort -- the Half-Blood Prince -- how could Dumbledore have missed --?
On previous reads I just dismissed this text as more of Harry's rant about the evil Snape, but on a recent read it came to me that this was JKR telling US the significance of "Half-Blood Prince" and giving us insight into Snape. I think I needed the storyline in "The Prince's Tale" for my revised interpretation to jump out at me.
What this means about Snape:
Snape was enamored of Voldemort even before his sixth year at Hogwarts.
He may have been in the Death Eater ranks, even then!
Snape knew about Voldemort's ancestry. (We didn't think this was common knowledge, but maybe it was the "whispered behind the hand" kind of common knowledge.)
Snape did, at least, demonstrate his Dark Arts knowledge to show off. This is how Lupin knew sectumsempra was Snape's signature curse.
He might have used the name "Half-Blood Prince" among his Slytherin cohorts (something like Moony, Wormtail, etc.)
This all puts a different spin on my view of Snape before Voldemort killed Lily. Without that event, Snape would have become like Malfoy, even surpassed him as a faithful Death Eater.
With this interpretation I understand better JKR's surprise that some readers like Snape. In her mind, Snape has always been the truely evil Death Eater that got a reprieve ... for a while anyway.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 18, 2008 12:04 pm (#2472 of 2617)
I think you might be on to something there, Soul Search.
Dryleaves - Jun 18, 2008 1:20 pm (#2473 of 2617)
I always had the impression that it is the teacher Snape JKR doesn't like and therefore she is surprised that readers like the character. Not the Death Eater, as we really don't see much of him in the books except from maybe this teenage inventor of Sectumsempra.
I don't think we could take Harry's rant as JKR's truth about Snape, but some of it is probably true. I think you jump to some of the conclusions, though, for example we cannot be sure that Snape knew about Voldemorts ancestry (even if it is possible he did).
Quinn Crockett - Jun 18, 2008 1:49 pm (#2474 of 2617)
Voldemort mentions his ancestry at the Rebirthing Ceremony as if it were common knowledge: "My father's bone, naturally, meant that we would have to come here, where he was buried." (GF ch. 33)
I don't think it's that far-fetched that Snape could have known about Voldemort's past.
Julia H. - Jun 18, 2008 2:37 pm (#2475 of 2617)
Edited Jun 18, 2008 3:54 pm
I think what Harry says/thinks about Snape at the end of HBP is what the reader should think about Snape at that point. JKR gives the reader doubts about Snape's true allegiance all through five books, then in the sixth one, she seemingly shows him ultimately as a DE, who has always been and will probably remain forever an evil, wicked DE. It is in HBP that we learn about the dark things in his past, like inventing dark spells and taking the prophecy to Voldemort. We know nothing about either the mitigating circumstances or about his remorse and the reason for his change. DD does try to tell Harry something about Snape's remorse but it is very little and when Snape kills DD, the reader is supposed to believe that anything that DD thought about Snape was based on a big mistake. We hear Snape's own words to Bellatrix explaining that he was all along a faithful DE. We know it may well be a series of lies but DD's death seems to prove that Snape is indeed evil. I think what Harry says after this summarizes what JKR wants the reader to believe at this point - but this is because she is preparing the big surprise for us at the end of DH.
Harry does not really know why Snape chose this name. To start with, does he really know that Snape's mother was a pure-blood? Is it anywhere in the book? I tried to find where Harry was told this information but I only found that Hermione had discovered that Snape's father was a muggle. I may not have looked in the right place but to me it seems we don't know Eileen Prince's ancestry. It seems Harry only assumes that Snape has a history similar to Voldemort's. However, the "half-blood" part of the name is tricky. Even if the Princes are pure-bloods, the "half-blood" attribute does not particularly emphasize the pure-blood connection. It seems to emphasize that Snape is a half-blood, that is he is different from most of his housemates and yet he is the one who knows how to brew potions in a better way or how to invent spells. The potions book is a record of a half-blood's wizarding talent, suggesting that Snape - in spite of his not so great ancestry - has talents that his pure-blood housemates do not have. (Brains versus blood, just like brainy versus brawny.)
Even if Snape did want to emphasize his connection to a pure-blood family or to a witch's family at least, this seems to be no proof at all that he was a DE at the time or that he was "enamored" of Voldemort. BTW, he invented Levicorpus, too and it was used on him by James after their OWL exam, at the end of the fifth year, so he must have invented the spell and used Advanced Potion-Making before that. This means he may have invented that nickname as a rather young kid and not necessarily as anyone who would seriously think about Voldemort and other adult things.
This all puts a different spin on my view of Snape before Voldemort killed Lily. Without that event, Snape would have become like Malfoy, even surpassed him as a faithful Death Eater. (Soul Search)
I don't think it proves that and I don't think we should view Snape on the basis of what could have been. Apart from that, Snape turned away from Voldemort before Voldemort killed Lily and not after. IMO, the most important reason for his change is not that Voldemort killed Lily but the fact that Snape could love someone who was threatened/targeted by Voldemort (and Lily was targeted as a muggle-born and as an order member without the prophecy as well, though it was the prophecy that made Snape realize this) and was ready to keep on loving her and to protect her when he had already realized that Voldemort considered her an enemy. This definitely shows that Snape cannot have been as much "enamored" of Voldemort and his ideology or whatever Voldemort represented as many other DE's may have been. It shows that for whatever reason he had joined Voldemort, it cannot have been nearly as important to him as his muggle-born love and her life must have been.
I don't think it's that far-fetched that Snape could have known about Voldemort's past. (Quinn)
As a DE, it seems he may have. But in his mid-teens .. we just don't know whether LV really let this be common knowledge outside his inner circle when he even changed his name with the specific purpose of disconnecting himself from his muggle father.
EDIT: The title The Prince's Tale may simply indicate that this is where Harry picks up the threads of Snape's story that he dropped just after learning that Snape was the Half-Blood Prince. I.e., the last thing Harry learned about Snape's past was that Snape was the Prince and he had used the potions book and invented those spells. Now Harry continues to learn about Snape's past and in this sense that chapter is more connected to HBP than to most of DH and this may be implied in the title.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 18, 2008 7:49 pm (#2476 of 2617)
I think people are going to believe whatever they want to about this character, and interpret the text accordingly.
For my part, I do think he was on a pretty clear and direct path prior to learning that Lily was about to be targeted, and I believe the author was telling us this by having Lily say to him, "You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"
Julia H. - Jun 19, 2008 12:31 am (#2477 of 2617)
Edited Jun 19, 2008 1:41 am
Quinn, we all know that Snape was on the wrong path and more and more so during his student years, although the author for some reason chose to tell that to us through Lily's words without letting Snape answer. (I do wonder why we can never know what he would have said at this point: The author could have had him say "He is a great man, Lily" or "No, this is not so" but she seems to have deliberately left this to our imagination.) However, there are many reasons that may put someone on the wrong path and that is what we usually discuss here, not that he was on the wrong path. But I don't think the Potions book proves that he already a joined the DE's while in school (not even Lily accuses him of that) or that he had a truly realistic knowledge of what Voldemort really represented. I mean if he had had a truly realistic knowledge, he could hardly have been so much surprised. Nor do I think that the picture we get of Snape at the end of HBP is the true picture of the character. It is a deliberately one-sided picture of his flaws and tragic mistakes or crimes or sins, if you like, with deliberately planted misleading elements in it (like his killing DD or turning out to be a faithful DE). We only get the full picture when we read The Prince's Tale, which does give some indication (though not an unambiguous answer) why he may have ended up a DE and also that the reason why he was ultimately able to change was in him all the time.
Pesky, I hope you are satisfied now!
Julia H. - Jun 19, 2008 3:01 am (#2478 of 2617)
Without that event, Snape would have become like Malfoy, even surpassed him as a faithful Death Eater. (Soul Search)
Sure, he could have if he had not loved a muggle-born and had not continued to love her even when that meant turning against Voldemort. Snape does seem to be an extremely loyal type, so if he had been able to remain loyal to LV (had he, for example, found the father figure he missed in LV instead of in DD)... well, who knows. As it happened, when he was ultimately forced to choose (rather than simply drift), he rather remained loyal to his love and childhood friend in spite of the fact that they had long been estranged and in spite of the fact that bringing the prophecy to LV probably meant he was climbing the ladder as a DE and since LV actually wanted to spare Lily for his sake, Snape must have been in favour with him at that moment. At the same time, trying to save Lily was a dangerous decision. Yet, this was what he chose.
I cannot really see Malfoy making a similar choice. He was a truly status-conscious pure-blood, married to another pure-blood, whose family was an initial supporter of LV's cause. He seems to have lived in accordance with pure-blood ideology (even in LV's absence) as much as he could and he seems to have had a better understanding of what was expected from him in the name if this ideology. He had the wealth and social status that granted him a more comfortable chance to choose and he remained loyal to LV until his family (including his person) - not a former friend - was clearly threatened by him.
BTW, a detailed comparison between Snape and Malfoy would be interesting.
Oh, and another quote just to show that JKR may be giving us some hints that Harry may not be absolutely right at the end of the book (just to confuse us). Hermione did not like the Prince while Harry admired him, however:
'All that time he was showing me how Voldemort was evil even when he was at school, and I had proof that Snape was, too -'
'"Evil" is a strong word,' said Hermione quietly.
I think Hermione is right again.
mona amon - Jun 19, 2008 8:10 am (#2479 of 2617)
...although the author for some reason chose to tell that to us through Lily's words without letting Snape answer. (I do wonder why we can never know what he would have said at this point: The author could have had him say "He is a great man, Lily" or "No, this is not so" but she seems to have deliberately left this to our imagination.) (Julia)
I think Sev's silence was deliberate on the part of the author. She wanted to show us that Snape had absolutely nothing to say in his defence. He did want to join You-Know-Who, but not for any noble reason that he could explain to Lily. His overwhelming desire to be part of this dreaded but powerful organisation makes him blind to its evil, deaf to Lily's entreaties, and finally dumb when faced with her accusations.
Soul Search - Jun 19, 2008 9:54 am (#2480 of 2617)
mona amon,
"His overwhelming desire to be part of this dreaded but powerful organisation makes him blind to its evil, deaf to Lily's entreaties, and finally dumb when faced with her accusations."
Well stated. Good expression. And, I agree.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 19, 2008 12:21 pm (#2481 of 2617)
As do I. Very well stated indeed, Mona.
I'm not sure what Severus could have said at that point, Julia, even if the author had provided his response. She has told us that Snape thought that by joining the Death Eaters he would seem impressive enough to win Lily over. But in this final confrontation between them, Lily makes it very clear that the opposite is true; that she is appalled by the very idea of it. What's more, he ultimately does choose the Death Eaters over her.
ETA: Hm... not sure what was with the double post there.
Dryleaves - Jun 19, 2008 12:21 pm (#2482 of 2617)
But in this final confrontation between them, Lily makes it very clear that the opposite is true; that she is appalled by the very idea of it. (Quinn)
Maybe his reasoning was that Lily was appalled by James Potter and still turned out to like him in the end. After all, Snape could not really see the difference between dark magic and what the Marauders were doing. (Just trying to find some logic in it...)
wynnleaf - Jun 19, 2008 3:00 pm (#2483 of 2617)
JKR stated in interview that the characters that she sometimes speaks through, in order to give "facts" to the reader, are Hermione and Dumbledore. She has certainly never said this about Harry, and in fact, as her books depend on misdirecting the reader through Harry's point of view, it would be odd indeed to suddenly start using Harry's words to offer authorial "facts". Instead, when Harry throughout the first 6 books makes any pronouncements about Snape and often about other situations or people, one could do better to assume that JKR might be trying to mis direct, not give "facts".
Julia H. - Jun 19, 2008 4:42 pm (#2484 of 2617)
Well, so Hermione says the Prince had a nasty sense of humour but "evil" is a strong word. Dumbledore, also in HBP, says: Professor Snape made a terrible mistake - this again does not sound as if DD (who by this time has known Snape for a long time and better than anyone else) thought he was evil. He also seems to be certain that Snape felt true remorse. So I don't think readers are meant to conclude (after DH) that Snape is the "truly evil DE" (Soul Search) - even worse than Malfoy - at any point in his life. Blind and deaf and dumb maybe but not evil.
I think Sev's silence was deliberate on the part of the author. She wanted to show us that Snape had absolutely nothing to say in his defence. (Mona)
What's more, he ultimately does choose the Death Eaters over her. (Quinn)
I understood that much that Snape's silence was deliberate on the part of the author. He may not have had much to say in his defence. However, Lily is also described as someone who does not want to listen to him and is not prepared to wait for his answer. I mean if Lily had shown some interest or patience waiting for an answer which would not come, Snape's silence would be more convincing. As it is now, it is more ambiguous. What I have noticed is that JKR is careful to never show any deliberate choice that Snape made prior to the break-up of his friendship with Lily and I guess this is again intentional on her part.
We see Lily telling Snape how evil Mulciber is. We learn that Snape knows about the "joke" and says it was a laugh but we are not even told that he was there or has any first-hand information. He may have been there or he may be just repeating what he heard from Mulciber. In this scene, he does not make a choice but rather ignores the necessity to choose. He is only interested in what Lily says about James and does not understand the seriousness of Lily's warning about Mulciber. In the Worst Memory scene, he certainly does not choose - this scene is not about choices for him. Then after the Worst Memory, the only thing he tries to do is apologize. Lily chooses not to accept his apology. The problem is that in this scene he is actually trying to do something that a typical DE would not do: voluntarily apologizing for the M-word. The apology may be too little and too late for Lily but it is a tiny step away from DE behaviour and towards Lily. However, this is the moment when he is told "I know you want to be a DE". Again the author will rather make him dumb than have him say anything definite that could imply that Lily is right (or not). After that, he will choose at some point to become a DE over not to become a DE - but this is not choosing the DE's over Lily, first because he has already lost Lily and secondly - if we want to consider what JKR says - he still hopes he will somehow be able to impress her if he becomes a DE. (Good catch Dryleaves: If Snape senses behind Lily's surface dislike her attraction towards the "brawny" bully, this idea, while not at all a good one, is not as illogical as it seems at first sight.)
JKR also says somewhere that Snape's tragedy is that he thought he could have both Lily and his Slytherin "friends" and I think this is what she actually manages to imply in her writing. Snape avoids choosing until he can choose Lily no more: he loses Lily and then he can only choose between not being a DE or being a DE and that is when he really chooses the wrong path and probably the one that seems easier. Later, however, he is forced to choose between Lily and Voldemort and then, in spite of Lily being far away from him, the dangers of trying to save her and the apparent favour of Voldemort, he chooses Lily.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 19, 2008 6:11 pm (#2485 of 2617)
Hm. Sorry, Julia, but I'm afraid you've lost me again.
In my view, he does choose the Death Eaters over Lily because if he really hadn't already chosen that path by the time of their final confrontation outside the Gryffindor Common Room, as Lily accuses him of, then there was still ample opportunity for him to set the record straight with her. Yet he doesn't. In fact, he apparently never tries to get back with Lily at all, never tries to make further amends to her.
wynnleaf - Jun 19, 2008 6:58 pm (#2486 of 2617)
In my view, he does choose the Death Eaters over Lily because if he really hadn't already chosen that path by the time of their final confrontation outside the Gryffindor Common Room, as Lily accuses him of, then there was still ample opportunity for him to set the record straight with her. Yet he doesn't. In fact, he apparently never tries to get back with Lily at all, never tries to make further amends to her. (Quinn)
As I read that scene, Lily never gives Snape a chance to explain, talk about what he might do to win her friendship back or anything. She interrupts several times, leaving Snape (and the reader, in my opinion), with the impression that there is nothing Snape can do to regain her friendship.
I'm not saying Lily wouldn't have re-thought the whole issue if Snape had later made an obvious break with his Dark friends. But I can easily see that from Snape's point of view, she wouldn't renew the friendship no matter what.
Further, I don't think he believed her that she disliked him for his Dark interests.
He states earlier (before the mudblood comment), that he can't see the difference between the Dark interests of his friends and the bullying actions of the Marauders. Lily has no answer for him, in order to distinguish why the Marauders actions and interests aren't as bad as Snape's interests or his friend's interests. Frankly, I believe it's a huge failing of the books that this question is left unanswered.
In any case, Lily says she can't be friends because of Snape's dark leanings, but he is rightly thinking that she's interested in James, regardless of his actions. Oh, I know, she won't date James while he's obviously bullying, but she still is very interested in him as a guy (JKR confirms this).
So it's easy for me to believe that Snape really didn't think Lily was being up front with her reasoning. So he concluded that if he became something powerful and "important" like a Death Eater, she'd be attracted to him. After all, she was attracted to the bully James, right?
If Lily had been able to give him an answer for why James and his crowd weren't nice, but they were at least somehow (how??) better than the Dark Arts crowd of students (not DEs out killing and torturing people at the time, as far as we know), then perhaps Snape would not have believed that becoming a powerful Dark wizard would attract Lily.
Actions often speak louder than words. Lily tells Snape she can't be friends because he's into Dark Arts. But she's attracted to James the powerful young bully wizard. And what's the difference Snape asks? No answer from Lily. Snape can't become like James -- he's not that physically attractive, popular, sporty, brawny type. But he can become powerful and "important" as a DE.
mona amon - Jun 20, 2008 1:47 am (#2487 of 2617)
However, Lily is also described as someone who does not want to listen to him and is not prepared to wait for his answer. I mean if Lily had shown some interest or patience waiting for an answer which would not come, Snape's silence would be more convincing. (Julia)
If this was the very first conversation that she'd had with Sev about his DE friends, I'd agree with you. But the impression I get is that she has argued with him many times before about the company he keeps and the direction in which he is going, no doubt giving him ample time to answer and explain his point of view. But he refused to change, and in this scene she's making it clear that he's already had his chance and now she no longer wants to have anything to do with him. I do feel that she could have chosen some other time to break off with him instead of right after he's been brutally bullied by a bunch of her fellow Griffindors, but that's another matter.
The problem is that in this scene he is actually trying to do something that a typical DE would not do: voluntarily apologizing for the M-word. The apology may be too little and too late for Lily but it is a tiny step away from DE behaviour and towards Lily.
I feel she makes it quite clear to him that she is not interested in his apology not because she didn't believe that he was sorry about calling her a mudblood, but because he calls everyone else of her birth Mudblood. She obviouly doesn't regard his apology as a tiny step away from DE behaviour if she is the only exception to his general rule, and I think she's right.
Lily has no answer for him, in order to distinguish why the Marauders actions and interests aren't as bad as Snape's interests or his friend's interests. Frankly, I believe it's a huge failing of the books that this question is left unanswered. (Wynnleaf)
Actually I see this type of writing as one of JKR's strengths. It's just like real life where hardly anything is clear-cut or black and white and the individual has to flounder about in a sea of indistinct choices. Snape, as you say, does not see the difference between the Marauders' actions and his friends' actions. And no doubt there really is no difference, or the author would have made it clear to us. Lily on the other hand is able to see that James is basically 'good' while Mulciber and Avery are basically evil, in spite of the similarity of the pranks that they play, but she is not able to explain to Snape her intuitions or insights. This is where a sympathetic and understanding adult could have helped guide him in the right direction. But unfortunately there was no one like that in his life.
wynnleaf - Jun 20, 2008 5:28 am (#2488 of 2617)
Snape, as you say, does not see the difference between the Marauders' actions and his friends' actions. And no doubt there really is no difference, or the author would have made it clear to us. Lily on the other hand is able to see that James is basically 'good' while Mulciber and Avery are basically evil, in spite of the similarity of the pranks that they play, but she is not able to explain to Snape her intuitions or insights. (mona amon)
Personally, I never saw any particular evidence that James was "basically good" other than that he fought for the Order. But plenty of nasty, cruel, arrogant, bullies fight on the supposedly "right" side of wars all the time and it doesn't make them good people to have picked the right side.
And certainly someone in Snape's position, who is actually personally dealing with the bullying guy, isn't going to have any intuitive feeling that James is better than Mulciber or Avery who presumably aren't attacking Snape and trying to bully him just because he exists. Yes, Mulciber or Avery may be bullying muggleborn students "because they exist," but what exactly is the difference?
And then Lily is attracted to James, even while he is bullying someone for no reason. And he even threatens to bully Lily "don't make me hex you, Evans" Don't "make" me?? If that's not a bully's viewpoint, I don't know what is. Yet according to JKR (in other words, it's not my imagination), Lily is showing in that scene that she's actually attracted to James. So if Snape can see that (and presumably if JKR can, so can Snape), then what's he to think? Probably that deep down, Lily actually is attracted to a guy who exhibits that kind of behavior. And she can't articulate why the fellows that bully her friend with Dark Arts are worse than the guy she's attracted to who bullies her good best friend Sev.
The reason I think it's a huge failing of the books is because I do believe JKR wants us to think that there's a difference, but she never actually shows what it is. We are never shown the "good" James, and are therefore never shown the difference.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 20, 2008 10:55 am (#2489 of 2617)
Edited Jun 20, 2008 12:23 pm
I think the difference is - perhaps even as far as Lilly is concerned - that while James is a bully and a jerk, he is not on a path toward sheer evil and Severus is. I agree with Mona that the final confrontation scene between Severus and Lily is the culmination of multiple conversations the two have had on the subject of where Severus is headed.
wynnleaf - Jun 20, 2008 3:50 pm (#2490 of 2617)
I think the difference is - perhaps even as far as Lilly is concerned - that while James is a bully and a jerk, he is not on a path toward sheer evil and Severus is. (Quinn)
I agree that the full blown Death Eaters, signed up to follow Voldemort, are "sheer evil," but that's from this side of the picture, where we knew early on that Voldemort was truly evil and many of his Death Eaters did terrible things.
But I'm not sure what they actually knew about it while Lily was in school. According to Sirius, his parents supported Voldemort around that time because they didn't know how far Voldemort was willing to go. Same for Regulas, according to Sirius. So I'm not positive that Lily knew that Voldemort was assigning his followers to kill right and left. Further, we actually don't know that Snape was clearly on the path to follow Voldemort. Sirius said in GOF that apart from being in with friends who later became DEs, there was no hint that Snape went that way. If that's the case, then I can't see how we can say that it would be so plain to Lily that Snape was headed that way. And we don't really know that he was planning on joining up prior to their friendship breaking up. Of course, I was earlier talking about Snape's question of the difference between the Marauders and the things his Slytherin friends did, not what he had done himself. Lily disapproved of Snape's friends but doesn't accuse Snape of anything but using "mudblood" repeatedly. On the other hand, the Marauders are actually doing many bad actions personally, not just hanging out with other bad friends, and Lily is still attracted to James.
Was it clear to everyone that Avery and Mulciber were going to join a terrorist type group that specialized in killing and torturing people? I'm not sure because I think JKR has been somewhat contradictory about that. At the first of PS/SS, Dumbledore and McGonagall speak as though the war had gone on some time. Yet Sirius' comments on a number of occasions make it sound like Voldemort's true colors weren't readily apparent to the public until late in their school years, or perhaps just after they left Hogwarts.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 20, 2008 4:11 pm (#2491 of 2617)
I can't see how we can say that it would be so plain to Lily that Snape was headed that way. - Wynnleaf
"You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" I don't think it can get much more plain than that.
Whether or not the reader personally agrees with this assessment is irrelevant. Clearly the character of Lily believed it.
Julia H. - Jun 20, 2008 5:16 pm (#2492 of 2617)
Hm. Sorry, Julia, but I'm afraid you've lost me again.
In my view, he does choose the Death Eaters over Lily because if he really hadn't already chosen that path by the time of their final confrontation outside the Gryffindor Common Room, as Lily accuses him of, then there was still ample opportunity for him to set the record straight with her. Yet he doesn't. In fact, he apparently never tries to get back with Lily at all, never tries to make further amends to her. (Quinn)
Hm... I'm not sure where I lost you.... I was talking about Snape not choosing actively (budding) DE's over Lily even if he did not choose Lily over them either (at least not until Lily's life was threatened). It is a different question whether not trying to win her back meant actively choosing the DE's over Lily or not. In this respect we either accept what JKR says (I am not saying we should) about Snape joining the DE's in the hope of eventually becoming able to impress Lily - then it means he did not choose the DE's over Lily consciously (even if the result was the same as if he had) - or we focus on the book only, where, true, there is no indication that Snape ever did anything to win back Lily. However, on the basis of what we learn about Lily's importance in Snape's life a little later (he was ready to risk his life or freedom and also to change the course of his life to save her), it does not seem probable that the reason why he did not try to win back Lily was that he was in any way happier without her and with the Slytherin gang. There can be various reasons: Lily does sound in the final scene where they talk as if she meant to break up with him forever. Snape, at least, may see the refusal as final, especially if he suspects Lily's attraction to James Potter, who, BTW, has just defeated and humiliated Snape publicly. How he feels after that, we do not know, but in this situation not everybody would react by trying his best to win back the girl. (Some people would, I know.) Snape is insecure, is not used to being liked and the events of this day may further weaken his self-confidence. Then when some time has already passed it is getting more and more difficult to try to bring back a lost friendship. At the same time, I can imagine Snape, having lost Lily, would try to cling to what is left to him: the Slytherin gang and any kind of acceptance he gets from them. I know this is not what he should do and not even the only thing he could do, however, from a psychological point of view, I find it a quite believable reaction.
She obviouly doesn't regard his apology as a tiny step away from DE behaviour if she is the only exception to his general rule, and I think she's right. (Mona)
I know that is how Lily feels. I was talking about something else. From Snape's point of view apologizing for the M-word is "non-DE-like" behaviour, even if it is for only one person's sake. I know it is not enough for Lily. Fine. Still, this is when he does something in the other direction and this is exactly the moment when he gets judged as a would-be DE. This kind of answer is simply not the type that may encourage a person to take the next tiny steps towards the good side - I am saying that even if I otherwise understand Lily's reasons. From the point of view of Snape's development, it is very unfortunate that he is rejected when he has just realized how much this word can hurt and that he had hurt, with this word, the one he loves.
Of course, we don't know what would happen if Lily accepted his apology. However, what I really wanted to say in that post was that prior to their break-up, we never see Snape doing or saying anything that would definitely show he has already made his choice (consciously). Yes, we know Lily sees it in this way. But even she seems to think that mainly on the basis of the language he uses and the friends he has and not on the basis of any particular actions Snape does or any particular statement of his that might confirm his choice. I think JKR could have shown us something more definite if she wanted. I think the reason why she does not do that may be her intention to show us a Snape who has not decided yet, who cannot decide and does not (want to) see the necessity to choose. This may be because of insecurity, because of longing to find acceptance wherever he can and because of various other things. All I am saying is that he does not seem to be "evil" here to me, even though he is on a path that will lead him to an evil organization and to the guilt he will never get rid of - but I do not think he can see that (as we, the readers, do see). Lily warns him but he does not understand - and there are circumstances that do not help him at all: He is a Slytherin trying to be loyal to his house (as most teenage kids want to be loyal to and to conform to the ideas, values etc. of the group where they belong). The supposed "good guys" hex him and humiliate him even when he does not do anything to them (Wynnleaf explained that very well). Lily refuses him when he regrets using the M-word at least on one specific occasion (and the general use of the word seems to be his major "crime" in Lily's eyes) and the same Lily seems to like James Potter, whom Snape just cannot see as good or noble.
wynnleaf - Jun 20, 2008 6:42 pm (#2493 of 2617)
"You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" I don't think it can get much more plain than that.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that Lily did not believe it. She clearly did. But did she have any sort of real evidence? Was this just her gut feeling? And how about the "little Death Eater friends," what evidence did she have of that other than interests in Dark Arts and anti-muggleborn attitudes? After all, if Sirius said his parents (who were into Dark arts) didn't know what all LV was up to, how could Lily?
haymoni - Jun 20, 2008 7:40 pm (#2494 of 2617)
I think the next few lines are more telling:
"I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine."
"No - listen, I didn't mean - "
" - to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"
Of course, he should have spilled it all for her right there - that he loved her, he had always loved her, but alas, earwax, he didn't.
The lines were clearly being drawn back then. This isn't Malfoy calling Hermione names in Book 2 before Voldy came back. People knew what was going on. Lily had been giving Snape the benefit of the doubt, but once he turned things on her, there was no doubt at all as to where his loyalties belonged.
wynnleaf - Jun 20, 2008 9:37 pm (#2495 of 2617)
once he turned things on her (haymoni)
When did he turn things on her? Does anyone actually think Snape "turned on" Lily? I don't think his using the word "mudblood" shows he was loyal to Voldemort. Is that what you meant? All it takes is regular use of that word and we know somebody is serving LV? Somehow, I don't exactly think that's what you meant, but I'm not sure what you did mean.
And my point earlier is that JKR was pretty inconsistent about whether or not people did know what was really going on. According to Sirius, neither his parents, for all their involvement in the Dark Arts, nor Regulas knew what it was all really about. What do you feel is the evidence that people were able to tell "what was going on" as far as Voldemort's activities?
mona amon - Jun 20, 2008 10:17 pm (#2496 of 2617)
Was it clear to everyone that Avery and Mulciber were going to join a terrorist type group that specialized in killing and torturing people? I'm not sure because I think JKR has been somewhat contradictory about that. At the first of PS/SS, Dumbledore and McGonagall speak as though the war had gone on some time. Yet Sirius' comments on a number of occasions make it sound like Voldemort's true colors weren't readily apparent to the public until late in their school years, or perhaps just after they left Hogwarts. (Wynnleaf)
I think it was pretty clear to everyone that Voldemort and his DEs wanted to 'clean up' the wizarding world by getting rid of muggleborns. This is what made people like the Blacks think he had the right idea. I'm sure Lily had a pretty good idea of what was going on.
Further, we actually don't know that Snape was clearly on the path to follow Voldemort. Sirius said in GOF that apart from being in with friends who later became DEs, there was no hint that Snape went that way. If that's the case, then I can't see how we can say that it would be so plain to Lily that Snape was headed that way.
Lily was Snape's best friend for almost five years, so she would have known what he was up to a lot better than Sirius did. We know that Lily feels he wants to become a Death Eater. We know that Sev never denies it. In the absense of any evidence to the contrary, I think we are meant to conclude that Lily is right.
Still, this is when he does something in the other direction and this is exactly the moment when he gets judged as a would-be DE. This kind of answer is simply not the type that may encourage a person to take the next tiny steps towards the good side- (Julia)
Like I said before, she makes it clear to him that she is rejecting his apology not because she does not believe that he is sincerly sorry for using the M-word against her, but for other reasons. In other words, it is not his 'tiny step in the right direction' that she is rejecting, even from his point of view. He knows what she wants of him- "give up your fascination with a group that wants to get rid of muggleborns like me." But he is not able to do so.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 20, 2008 10:25 pm (#2497 of 2617)
When did he turn things on her?
Wow, really?
I think any time someone you are close to starts using hate language against you it's time to re-evaluate how much you really want that relationship to continue.
This is exactly what Lily did and the conclusion she came to was "no".
Julia H. - Jun 21, 2008 1:52 am (#2498 of 2617)
I think any time someone you are close to starts using hate language against you it's time to re-evaluate how much you really want that relationship to continue. (Quinn)
Quinn, this is so. Yet, Snape did not start "using hate language against her" in situations and in ways usually associated with "using hate language". I do not deny Lily's right to end the relationship. However, posters do not seem to totally agree whether Lily ended the relationship because of Snape's general use of the word or because he finally used it against her. At least some of the posts suggest this, others that. What seems to be canon is that Lily ended the relationship when Snape used the word against her, not when he used it against anyone else. Yet, the circumstances in this case were special: he used the word in his rage and humiliation, as even Harry understood. He clearly meant to say something that hurt but it was because he was also in pain, seeing the flirting between Lily and James as they quarrelled whether Snape's torture and humiliation should continue or not. No, it was not a good thing to use that word. But it was not the same when Malfoy used it against Hermione in CoS. It was not Lily who was being tortured or laughed at the moment. (Does anyone think that Snape would have used the word against her if she had been in a position of defeat or humiliation?) Moreover, he was apologizing and I think someone who does that cannot be regarded as being determined to hurt or to hate. Sincere apologies and the special circumstances together should make some difference, especially if he had never hurt her before. If Lily was primarily angry because Snape had used the word against her, she still might have considered these circumstances.
On the other hand, if she rejected Snape's general use of the word (rather than its use against her, personally) and the fact that he had not listened to her for a long time, well, then she just stopped trying to make him understand at the very moment when finally there seemed to be some faint chance that - in the hope of being forgiven - he might perhaps listen to her and might (in time) understand what she was trying to say. In that situation, being turned down (even if Lily had every right to refuse him) had the effect of pushing him further ahead in the wrong direction - more, I guess, than if she had forgiven - and in a moment when he was regretting the wrong he had done. So, why I understand that Lily happened to give up on him at that moment, I find it an unfortunately lost chance for someone who had allegedly been trying to make a friend see the light for a long time to give up just when she finally did have the opportunity to have a serious talk with him and to influence him. She gave up on him when he was vulnerable and needed a friend more than usually.
It is not at all clear whether ultimately it was personal pride that made her unforgiving when asked for forgiveness (her own words deny it) or more general principles (but then she lost the real opportunity to "convert" a long-time friend who had not yet done anything that made conversion and improvement impossible - although we are supposed to think that this had been her purpose for a long time). Then again there have been suggestions saying that this was simply a great opportunity for Lily to proudly end a relationship she did not want to keep up anyway.
Dryleaves - Jun 21, 2008 2:55 am (#2499 of 2617)
I think Snape seems extremely naive. He seems to seriously think not only that Lily will accept his "Death Eater friends", he also seems to think that they will accept her. I think the word "mudblood" means completely different things to Lily and Snape, and that she is the one who is closer to get what it actually means: that she and other people of her birth will be persecuted and killed. I think Snape uses it more as a general word of abuse, and he uses it to her in a situation where he is angry and humiliated.
At least to Snape I think it all is more about James Potter than it is about pure-bloods and Death Eaters. When Lily is on him about what Mulciber did he stops listen as soon as she calls James "an arrogant toerag". And even if Lily gets it all much better than Snape does, she maybe is not all clear about it either. It is all a bit blurry, after all, because though it is wrong to divide people into "pure-bloods" and "mudbloods", James can still bully Snape "because he exists" and the difference between evil Slytherin pranks and Marauder ones is never satisfactorily explained. It seems to be about who does it, not about what is done. In the scenes we see, Lily is close to explaining what she means in the apology scene, not before, and we never know if their earlier discussions ever got any further than being about not liking each other's friends and vague accusations of them being "evil". Now the discussions end. Maybe Lily thinks she is clear, and maybe she thinks Snape gets it and that he has understood all the time. I think what he probably sees is her choosing James Potter before him, not himself choosing Death Eaters before her.
wynnleaf - Jun 21, 2008 5:48 am (#2500 of 2617)
Dryleaves,
Excellent post and you put it so much more clearly than I did!
I think the blurriness of the distinctions are far harder for Snape to grasp because the Marauders are persecuting him personally and yet he would seem to think that Lily doesn't believe that the Marauders are as bad as Snape's friends.
And whatever a reader may want to imagine Lily had said to Snape, in the actual book we're never shown her giving any more than vague objections to Snape's friends being evil and into dark jokes, not that is until after she has decided once and for all to break off the friendship. Even then, she's not actually discussing with Snape and explaining, just primarily accusing without giving him an opportunity to answer back.
Does Lily truly understand Snape? No, I don't think so. Nor does she really give credence to his suspicions and observations. Snape is dead on right about Lupin, but Lily won't even consider his suspicions, preferring to believe whatever the story around her House is about Lupin's "illness". She won't give credence to anything Snape has to say about the Prank, once again preferring to believe whatever she's heard in her House about James' heroism, even though Snape would clearly know a whole lot more about it than her.
And she certainly doesn't "get" it that Snape does not really see where she is making a distinction between use of Dark magic for mean jokes or whatever, versus out-and-out bullying by non-Dark Magic methods. And it's impossible for me to blame Snape for not getting it, because I don't get it either as we never are shown that what the difference is. (Remembering that use of Dark Magic against others isn't the same thing as "pureblood prejudice". They are two different wrongs of which the Death Eaters make use of both.)
Julia and Quinn,
I agree with Julia. As I see it, Lily did not reject Snape because she thought he had personally turned against her specifically, having used the mudblood word in a highly stressful situation. Instead, she thought his use of the term - so pervasive that he finally used it on even his friend - was indicative of the bad directions that he was pursuing.
We have, at times, asked why the emphasis on "Half-Blood Prince." It was a book title, Snape whote in in his potions book, and then the Deathly Hallows chapter title "The Prince's Tale." Yet, the concept doesn't quite live up to its billing in the storyline. I have always thought I was missing something.
In HBP, "The White Tower," Hermione relates to Harry her research on Snape and "Prince:"
"Snape must have been proud of being 'half a Prince,' ... Tobias Snape was a Muggle ..."
Harry responds:
"He'd play up the pure-blood side so he could get in with Lucius Malfoy and the rest of them. ... He's just like Voldemort. Pure-blood mother, Muggle father ... ashamed of his parentage, trying to make himself feared using the Dark Arts, gave himself an impressive new name -- Lord Voldemort -- the Half-Blood Prince -- how could Dumbledore have missed --?
On previous reads I just dismissed this text as more of Harry's rant about the evil Snape, but on a recent read it came to me that this was JKR telling US the significance of "Half-Blood Prince" and giving us insight into Snape. I think I needed the storyline in "The Prince's Tale" for my revised interpretation to jump out at me.
What this means about Snape:
Snape was enamored of Voldemort even before his sixth year at Hogwarts.
He may have been in the Death Eater ranks, even then!
Snape knew about Voldemort's ancestry. (We didn't think this was common knowledge, but maybe it was the "whispered behind the hand" kind of common knowledge.)
Snape did, at least, demonstrate his Dark Arts knowledge to show off. This is how Lupin knew sectumsempra was Snape's signature curse.
He might have used the name "Half-Blood Prince" among his Slytherin cohorts (something like Moony, Wormtail, etc.)
This all puts a different spin on my view of Snape before Voldemort killed Lily. Without that event, Snape would have become like Malfoy, even surpassed him as a faithful Death Eater.
With this interpretation I understand better JKR's surprise that some readers like Snape. In her mind, Snape has always been the truely evil Death Eater that got a reprieve ... for a while anyway.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 18, 2008 12:04 pm (#2472 of 2617)
I think you might be on to something there, Soul Search.
Dryleaves - Jun 18, 2008 1:20 pm (#2473 of 2617)
I always had the impression that it is the teacher Snape JKR doesn't like and therefore she is surprised that readers like the character. Not the Death Eater, as we really don't see much of him in the books except from maybe this teenage inventor of Sectumsempra.
I don't think we could take Harry's rant as JKR's truth about Snape, but some of it is probably true. I think you jump to some of the conclusions, though, for example we cannot be sure that Snape knew about Voldemorts ancestry (even if it is possible he did).
Quinn Crockett - Jun 18, 2008 1:49 pm (#2474 of 2617)
Voldemort mentions his ancestry at the Rebirthing Ceremony as if it were common knowledge: "My father's bone, naturally, meant that we would have to come here, where he was buried." (GF ch. 33)
I don't think it's that far-fetched that Snape could have known about Voldemort's past.
Julia H. - Jun 18, 2008 2:37 pm (#2475 of 2617)
Edited Jun 18, 2008 3:54 pm
I think what Harry says/thinks about Snape at the end of HBP is what the reader should think about Snape at that point. JKR gives the reader doubts about Snape's true allegiance all through five books, then in the sixth one, she seemingly shows him ultimately as a DE, who has always been and will probably remain forever an evil, wicked DE. It is in HBP that we learn about the dark things in his past, like inventing dark spells and taking the prophecy to Voldemort. We know nothing about either the mitigating circumstances or about his remorse and the reason for his change. DD does try to tell Harry something about Snape's remorse but it is very little and when Snape kills DD, the reader is supposed to believe that anything that DD thought about Snape was based on a big mistake. We hear Snape's own words to Bellatrix explaining that he was all along a faithful DE. We know it may well be a series of lies but DD's death seems to prove that Snape is indeed evil. I think what Harry says after this summarizes what JKR wants the reader to believe at this point - but this is because she is preparing the big surprise for us at the end of DH.
Harry does not really know why Snape chose this name. To start with, does he really know that Snape's mother was a pure-blood? Is it anywhere in the book? I tried to find where Harry was told this information but I only found that Hermione had discovered that Snape's father was a muggle. I may not have looked in the right place but to me it seems we don't know Eileen Prince's ancestry. It seems Harry only assumes that Snape has a history similar to Voldemort's. However, the "half-blood" part of the name is tricky. Even if the Princes are pure-bloods, the "half-blood" attribute does not particularly emphasize the pure-blood connection. It seems to emphasize that Snape is a half-blood, that is he is different from most of his housemates and yet he is the one who knows how to brew potions in a better way or how to invent spells. The potions book is a record of a half-blood's wizarding talent, suggesting that Snape - in spite of his not so great ancestry - has talents that his pure-blood housemates do not have. (Brains versus blood, just like brainy versus brawny.)
Even if Snape did want to emphasize his connection to a pure-blood family or to a witch's family at least, this seems to be no proof at all that he was a DE at the time or that he was "enamored" of Voldemort. BTW, he invented Levicorpus, too and it was used on him by James after their OWL exam, at the end of the fifth year, so he must have invented the spell and used Advanced Potion-Making before that. This means he may have invented that nickname as a rather young kid and not necessarily as anyone who would seriously think about Voldemort and other adult things.
This all puts a different spin on my view of Snape before Voldemort killed Lily. Without that event, Snape would have become like Malfoy, even surpassed him as a faithful Death Eater. (Soul Search)
I don't think it proves that and I don't think we should view Snape on the basis of what could have been. Apart from that, Snape turned away from Voldemort before Voldemort killed Lily and not after. IMO, the most important reason for his change is not that Voldemort killed Lily but the fact that Snape could love someone who was threatened/targeted by Voldemort (and Lily was targeted as a muggle-born and as an order member without the prophecy as well, though it was the prophecy that made Snape realize this) and was ready to keep on loving her and to protect her when he had already realized that Voldemort considered her an enemy. This definitely shows that Snape cannot have been as much "enamored" of Voldemort and his ideology or whatever Voldemort represented as many other DE's may have been. It shows that for whatever reason he had joined Voldemort, it cannot have been nearly as important to him as his muggle-born love and her life must have been.
I don't think it's that far-fetched that Snape could have known about Voldemort's past. (Quinn)
As a DE, it seems he may have. But in his mid-teens .. we just don't know whether LV really let this be common knowledge outside his inner circle when he even changed his name with the specific purpose of disconnecting himself from his muggle father.
EDIT: The title The Prince's Tale may simply indicate that this is where Harry picks up the threads of Snape's story that he dropped just after learning that Snape was the Half-Blood Prince. I.e., the last thing Harry learned about Snape's past was that Snape was the Prince and he had used the potions book and invented those spells. Now Harry continues to learn about Snape's past and in this sense that chapter is more connected to HBP than to most of DH and this may be implied in the title.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 18, 2008 7:49 pm (#2476 of 2617)
I think people are going to believe whatever they want to about this character, and interpret the text accordingly.
For my part, I do think he was on a pretty clear and direct path prior to learning that Lily was about to be targeted, and I believe the author was telling us this by having Lily say to him, "You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"
Julia H. - Jun 19, 2008 12:31 am (#2477 of 2617)
Edited Jun 19, 2008 1:41 am
Quinn, we all know that Snape was on the wrong path and more and more so during his student years, although the author for some reason chose to tell that to us through Lily's words without letting Snape answer. (I do wonder why we can never know what he would have said at this point: The author could have had him say "He is a great man, Lily" or "No, this is not so" but she seems to have deliberately left this to our imagination.) However, there are many reasons that may put someone on the wrong path and that is what we usually discuss here, not that he was on the wrong path. But I don't think the Potions book proves that he already a joined the DE's while in school (not even Lily accuses him of that) or that he had a truly realistic knowledge of what Voldemort really represented. I mean if he had had a truly realistic knowledge, he could hardly have been so much surprised. Nor do I think that the picture we get of Snape at the end of HBP is the true picture of the character. It is a deliberately one-sided picture of his flaws and tragic mistakes or crimes or sins, if you like, with deliberately planted misleading elements in it (like his killing DD or turning out to be a faithful DE). We only get the full picture when we read The Prince's Tale, which does give some indication (though not an unambiguous answer) why he may have ended up a DE and also that the reason why he was ultimately able to change was in him all the time.
Pesky, I hope you are satisfied now!
Julia H. - Jun 19, 2008 3:01 am (#2478 of 2617)
Without that event, Snape would have become like Malfoy, even surpassed him as a faithful Death Eater. (Soul Search)
Sure, he could have if he had not loved a muggle-born and had not continued to love her even when that meant turning against Voldemort. Snape does seem to be an extremely loyal type, so if he had been able to remain loyal to LV (had he, for example, found the father figure he missed in LV instead of in DD)... well, who knows. As it happened, when he was ultimately forced to choose (rather than simply drift), he rather remained loyal to his love and childhood friend in spite of the fact that they had long been estranged and in spite of the fact that bringing the prophecy to LV probably meant he was climbing the ladder as a DE and since LV actually wanted to spare Lily for his sake, Snape must have been in favour with him at that moment. At the same time, trying to save Lily was a dangerous decision. Yet, this was what he chose.
I cannot really see Malfoy making a similar choice. He was a truly status-conscious pure-blood, married to another pure-blood, whose family was an initial supporter of LV's cause. He seems to have lived in accordance with pure-blood ideology (even in LV's absence) as much as he could and he seems to have had a better understanding of what was expected from him in the name if this ideology. He had the wealth and social status that granted him a more comfortable chance to choose and he remained loyal to LV until his family (including his person) - not a former friend - was clearly threatened by him.
BTW, a detailed comparison between Snape and Malfoy would be interesting.
Oh, and another quote just to show that JKR may be giving us some hints that Harry may not be absolutely right at the end of the book (just to confuse us). Hermione did not like the Prince while Harry admired him, however:
'All that time he was showing me how Voldemort was evil even when he was at school, and I had proof that Snape was, too -'
'"Evil" is a strong word,' said Hermione quietly.
I think Hermione is right again.
mona amon - Jun 19, 2008 8:10 am (#2479 of 2617)
...although the author for some reason chose to tell that to us through Lily's words without letting Snape answer. (I do wonder why we can never know what he would have said at this point: The author could have had him say "He is a great man, Lily" or "No, this is not so" but she seems to have deliberately left this to our imagination.) (Julia)
I think Sev's silence was deliberate on the part of the author. She wanted to show us that Snape had absolutely nothing to say in his defence. He did want to join You-Know-Who, but not for any noble reason that he could explain to Lily. His overwhelming desire to be part of this dreaded but powerful organisation makes him blind to its evil, deaf to Lily's entreaties, and finally dumb when faced with her accusations.
Soul Search - Jun 19, 2008 9:54 am (#2480 of 2617)
mona amon,
"His overwhelming desire to be part of this dreaded but powerful organisation makes him blind to its evil, deaf to Lily's entreaties, and finally dumb when faced with her accusations."
Well stated. Good expression. And, I agree.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 19, 2008 12:21 pm (#2481 of 2617)
As do I. Very well stated indeed, Mona.
I'm not sure what Severus could have said at that point, Julia, even if the author had provided his response. She has told us that Snape thought that by joining the Death Eaters he would seem impressive enough to win Lily over. But in this final confrontation between them, Lily makes it very clear that the opposite is true; that she is appalled by the very idea of it. What's more, he ultimately does choose the Death Eaters over her.
ETA: Hm... not sure what was with the double post there.
Dryleaves - Jun 19, 2008 12:21 pm (#2482 of 2617)
But in this final confrontation between them, Lily makes it very clear that the opposite is true; that she is appalled by the very idea of it. (Quinn)
Maybe his reasoning was that Lily was appalled by James Potter and still turned out to like him in the end. After all, Snape could not really see the difference between dark magic and what the Marauders were doing. (Just trying to find some logic in it...)
wynnleaf - Jun 19, 2008 3:00 pm (#2483 of 2617)
JKR stated in interview that the characters that she sometimes speaks through, in order to give "facts" to the reader, are Hermione and Dumbledore. She has certainly never said this about Harry, and in fact, as her books depend on misdirecting the reader through Harry's point of view, it would be odd indeed to suddenly start using Harry's words to offer authorial "facts". Instead, when Harry throughout the first 6 books makes any pronouncements about Snape and often about other situations or people, one could do better to assume that JKR might be trying to mis direct, not give "facts".
Julia H. - Jun 19, 2008 4:42 pm (#2484 of 2617)
Well, so Hermione says the Prince had a nasty sense of humour but "evil" is a strong word. Dumbledore, also in HBP, says: Professor Snape made a terrible mistake - this again does not sound as if DD (who by this time has known Snape for a long time and better than anyone else) thought he was evil. He also seems to be certain that Snape felt true remorse. So I don't think readers are meant to conclude (after DH) that Snape is the "truly evil DE" (Soul Search) - even worse than Malfoy - at any point in his life. Blind and deaf and dumb maybe but not evil.
I think Sev's silence was deliberate on the part of the author. She wanted to show us that Snape had absolutely nothing to say in his defence. (Mona)
What's more, he ultimately does choose the Death Eaters over her. (Quinn)
I understood that much that Snape's silence was deliberate on the part of the author. He may not have had much to say in his defence. However, Lily is also described as someone who does not want to listen to him and is not prepared to wait for his answer. I mean if Lily had shown some interest or patience waiting for an answer which would not come, Snape's silence would be more convincing. As it is now, it is more ambiguous. What I have noticed is that JKR is careful to never show any deliberate choice that Snape made prior to the break-up of his friendship with Lily and I guess this is again intentional on her part.
We see Lily telling Snape how evil Mulciber is. We learn that Snape knows about the "joke" and says it was a laugh but we are not even told that he was there or has any first-hand information. He may have been there or he may be just repeating what he heard from Mulciber. In this scene, he does not make a choice but rather ignores the necessity to choose. He is only interested in what Lily says about James and does not understand the seriousness of Lily's warning about Mulciber. In the Worst Memory scene, he certainly does not choose - this scene is not about choices for him. Then after the Worst Memory, the only thing he tries to do is apologize. Lily chooses not to accept his apology. The problem is that in this scene he is actually trying to do something that a typical DE would not do: voluntarily apologizing for the M-word. The apology may be too little and too late for Lily but it is a tiny step away from DE behaviour and towards Lily. However, this is the moment when he is told "I know you want to be a DE". Again the author will rather make him dumb than have him say anything definite that could imply that Lily is right (or not). After that, he will choose at some point to become a DE over not to become a DE - but this is not choosing the DE's over Lily, first because he has already lost Lily and secondly - if we want to consider what JKR says - he still hopes he will somehow be able to impress her if he becomes a DE. (Good catch Dryleaves: If Snape senses behind Lily's surface dislike her attraction towards the "brawny" bully, this idea, while not at all a good one, is not as illogical as it seems at first sight.)
JKR also says somewhere that Snape's tragedy is that he thought he could have both Lily and his Slytherin "friends" and I think this is what she actually manages to imply in her writing. Snape avoids choosing until he can choose Lily no more: he loses Lily and then he can only choose between not being a DE or being a DE and that is when he really chooses the wrong path and probably the one that seems easier. Later, however, he is forced to choose between Lily and Voldemort and then, in spite of Lily being far away from him, the dangers of trying to save her and the apparent favour of Voldemort, he chooses Lily.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 19, 2008 6:11 pm (#2485 of 2617)
Hm. Sorry, Julia, but I'm afraid you've lost me again.
In my view, he does choose the Death Eaters over Lily because if he really hadn't already chosen that path by the time of their final confrontation outside the Gryffindor Common Room, as Lily accuses him of, then there was still ample opportunity for him to set the record straight with her. Yet he doesn't. In fact, he apparently never tries to get back with Lily at all, never tries to make further amends to her.
wynnleaf - Jun 19, 2008 6:58 pm (#2486 of 2617)
In my view, he does choose the Death Eaters over Lily because if he really hadn't already chosen that path by the time of their final confrontation outside the Gryffindor Common Room, as Lily accuses him of, then there was still ample opportunity for him to set the record straight with her. Yet he doesn't. In fact, he apparently never tries to get back with Lily at all, never tries to make further amends to her. (Quinn)
As I read that scene, Lily never gives Snape a chance to explain, talk about what he might do to win her friendship back or anything. She interrupts several times, leaving Snape (and the reader, in my opinion), with the impression that there is nothing Snape can do to regain her friendship.
I'm not saying Lily wouldn't have re-thought the whole issue if Snape had later made an obvious break with his Dark friends. But I can easily see that from Snape's point of view, she wouldn't renew the friendship no matter what.
Further, I don't think he believed her that she disliked him for his Dark interests.
He states earlier (before the mudblood comment), that he can't see the difference between the Dark interests of his friends and the bullying actions of the Marauders. Lily has no answer for him, in order to distinguish why the Marauders actions and interests aren't as bad as Snape's interests or his friend's interests. Frankly, I believe it's a huge failing of the books that this question is left unanswered.
In any case, Lily says she can't be friends because of Snape's dark leanings, but he is rightly thinking that she's interested in James, regardless of his actions. Oh, I know, she won't date James while he's obviously bullying, but she still is very interested in him as a guy (JKR confirms this).
So it's easy for me to believe that Snape really didn't think Lily was being up front with her reasoning. So he concluded that if he became something powerful and "important" like a Death Eater, she'd be attracted to him. After all, she was attracted to the bully James, right?
If Lily had been able to give him an answer for why James and his crowd weren't nice, but they were at least somehow (how??) better than the Dark Arts crowd of students (not DEs out killing and torturing people at the time, as far as we know), then perhaps Snape would not have believed that becoming a powerful Dark wizard would attract Lily.
Actions often speak louder than words. Lily tells Snape she can't be friends because he's into Dark Arts. But she's attracted to James the powerful young bully wizard. And what's the difference Snape asks? No answer from Lily. Snape can't become like James -- he's not that physically attractive, popular, sporty, brawny type. But he can become powerful and "important" as a DE.
mona amon - Jun 20, 2008 1:47 am (#2487 of 2617)
However, Lily is also described as someone who does not want to listen to him and is not prepared to wait for his answer. I mean if Lily had shown some interest or patience waiting for an answer which would not come, Snape's silence would be more convincing. (Julia)
If this was the very first conversation that she'd had with Sev about his DE friends, I'd agree with you. But the impression I get is that she has argued with him many times before about the company he keeps and the direction in which he is going, no doubt giving him ample time to answer and explain his point of view. But he refused to change, and in this scene she's making it clear that he's already had his chance and now she no longer wants to have anything to do with him. I do feel that she could have chosen some other time to break off with him instead of right after he's been brutally bullied by a bunch of her fellow Griffindors, but that's another matter.
The problem is that in this scene he is actually trying to do something that a typical DE would not do: voluntarily apologizing for the M-word. The apology may be too little and too late for Lily but it is a tiny step away from DE behaviour and towards Lily.
I feel she makes it quite clear to him that she is not interested in his apology not because she didn't believe that he was sorry about calling her a mudblood, but because he calls everyone else of her birth Mudblood. She obviouly doesn't regard his apology as a tiny step away from DE behaviour if she is the only exception to his general rule, and I think she's right.
Lily has no answer for him, in order to distinguish why the Marauders actions and interests aren't as bad as Snape's interests or his friend's interests. Frankly, I believe it's a huge failing of the books that this question is left unanswered. (Wynnleaf)
Actually I see this type of writing as one of JKR's strengths. It's just like real life where hardly anything is clear-cut or black and white and the individual has to flounder about in a sea of indistinct choices. Snape, as you say, does not see the difference between the Marauders' actions and his friends' actions. And no doubt there really is no difference, or the author would have made it clear to us. Lily on the other hand is able to see that James is basically 'good' while Mulciber and Avery are basically evil, in spite of the similarity of the pranks that they play, but she is not able to explain to Snape her intuitions or insights. This is where a sympathetic and understanding adult could have helped guide him in the right direction. But unfortunately there was no one like that in his life.
wynnleaf - Jun 20, 2008 5:28 am (#2488 of 2617)
Snape, as you say, does not see the difference between the Marauders' actions and his friends' actions. And no doubt there really is no difference, or the author would have made it clear to us. Lily on the other hand is able to see that James is basically 'good' while Mulciber and Avery are basically evil, in spite of the similarity of the pranks that they play, but she is not able to explain to Snape her intuitions or insights. (mona amon)
Personally, I never saw any particular evidence that James was "basically good" other than that he fought for the Order. But plenty of nasty, cruel, arrogant, bullies fight on the supposedly "right" side of wars all the time and it doesn't make them good people to have picked the right side.
And certainly someone in Snape's position, who is actually personally dealing with the bullying guy, isn't going to have any intuitive feeling that James is better than Mulciber or Avery who presumably aren't attacking Snape and trying to bully him just because he exists. Yes, Mulciber or Avery may be bullying muggleborn students "because they exist," but what exactly is the difference?
And then Lily is attracted to James, even while he is bullying someone for no reason. And he even threatens to bully Lily "don't make me hex you, Evans" Don't "make" me?? If that's not a bully's viewpoint, I don't know what is. Yet according to JKR (in other words, it's not my imagination), Lily is showing in that scene that she's actually attracted to James. So if Snape can see that (and presumably if JKR can, so can Snape), then what's he to think? Probably that deep down, Lily actually is attracted to a guy who exhibits that kind of behavior. And she can't articulate why the fellows that bully her friend with Dark Arts are worse than the guy she's attracted to who bullies her good best friend Sev.
The reason I think it's a huge failing of the books is because I do believe JKR wants us to think that there's a difference, but she never actually shows what it is. We are never shown the "good" James, and are therefore never shown the difference.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 20, 2008 10:55 am (#2489 of 2617)
Edited Jun 20, 2008 12:23 pm
I think the difference is - perhaps even as far as Lilly is concerned - that while James is a bully and a jerk, he is not on a path toward sheer evil and Severus is. I agree with Mona that the final confrontation scene between Severus and Lily is the culmination of multiple conversations the two have had on the subject of where Severus is headed.
wynnleaf - Jun 20, 2008 3:50 pm (#2490 of 2617)
I think the difference is - perhaps even as far as Lilly is concerned - that while James is a bully and a jerk, he is not on a path toward sheer evil and Severus is. (Quinn)
I agree that the full blown Death Eaters, signed up to follow Voldemort, are "sheer evil," but that's from this side of the picture, where we knew early on that Voldemort was truly evil and many of his Death Eaters did terrible things.
But I'm not sure what they actually knew about it while Lily was in school. According to Sirius, his parents supported Voldemort around that time because they didn't know how far Voldemort was willing to go. Same for Regulas, according to Sirius. So I'm not positive that Lily knew that Voldemort was assigning his followers to kill right and left. Further, we actually don't know that Snape was clearly on the path to follow Voldemort. Sirius said in GOF that apart from being in with friends who later became DEs, there was no hint that Snape went that way. If that's the case, then I can't see how we can say that it would be so plain to Lily that Snape was headed that way. And we don't really know that he was planning on joining up prior to their friendship breaking up. Of course, I was earlier talking about Snape's question of the difference between the Marauders and the things his Slytherin friends did, not what he had done himself. Lily disapproved of Snape's friends but doesn't accuse Snape of anything but using "mudblood" repeatedly. On the other hand, the Marauders are actually doing many bad actions personally, not just hanging out with other bad friends, and Lily is still attracted to James.
Was it clear to everyone that Avery and Mulciber were going to join a terrorist type group that specialized in killing and torturing people? I'm not sure because I think JKR has been somewhat contradictory about that. At the first of PS/SS, Dumbledore and McGonagall speak as though the war had gone on some time. Yet Sirius' comments on a number of occasions make it sound like Voldemort's true colors weren't readily apparent to the public until late in their school years, or perhaps just after they left Hogwarts.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 20, 2008 4:11 pm (#2491 of 2617)
I can't see how we can say that it would be so plain to Lily that Snape was headed that way. - Wynnleaf
"You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" I don't think it can get much more plain than that.
Whether or not the reader personally agrees with this assessment is irrelevant. Clearly the character of Lily believed it.
Julia H. - Jun 20, 2008 5:16 pm (#2492 of 2617)
Hm. Sorry, Julia, but I'm afraid you've lost me again.
In my view, he does choose the Death Eaters over Lily because if he really hadn't already chosen that path by the time of their final confrontation outside the Gryffindor Common Room, as Lily accuses him of, then there was still ample opportunity for him to set the record straight with her. Yet he doesn't. In fact, he apparently never tries to get back with Lily at all, never tries to make further amends to her. (Quinn)
Hm... I'm not sure where I lost you.... I was talking about Snape not choosing actively (budding) DE's over Lily even if he did not choose Lily over them either (at least not until Lily's life was threatened). It is a different question whether not trying to win her back meant actively choosing the DE's over Lily or not. In this respect we either accept what JKR says (I am not saying we should) about Snape joining the DE's in the hope of eventually becoming able to impress Lily - then it means he did not choose the DE's over Lily consciously (even if the result was the same as if he had) - or we focus on the book only, where, true, there is no indication that Snape ever did anything to win back Lily. However, on the basis of what we learn about Lily's importance in Snape's life a little later (he was ready to risk his life or freedom and also to change the course of his life to save her), it does not seem probable that the reason why he did not try to win back Lily was that he was in any way happier without her and with the Slytherin gang. There can be various reasons: Lily does sound in the final scene where they talk as if she meant to break up with him forever. Snape, at least, may see the refusal as final, especially if he suspects Lily's attraction to James Potter, who, BTW, has just defeated and humiliated Snape publicly. How he feels after that, we do not know, but in this situation not everybody would react by trying his best to win back the girl. (Some people would, I know.) Snape is insecure, is not used to being liked and the events of this day may further weaken his self-confidence. Then when some time has already passed it is getting more and more difficult to try to bring back a lost friendship. At the same time, I can imagine Snape, having lost Lily, would try to cling to what is left to him: the Slytherin gang and any kind of acceptance he gets from them. I know this is not what he should do and not even the only thing he could do, however, from a psychological point of view, I find it a quite believable reaction.
She obviouly doesn't regard his apology as a tiny step away from DE behaviour if she is the only exception to his general rule, and I think she's right. (Mona)
I know that is how Lily feels. I was talking about something else. From Snape's point of view apologizing for the M-word is "non-DE-like" behaviour, even if it is for only one person's sake. I know it is not enough for Lily. Fine. Still, this is when he does something in the other direction and this is exactly the moment when he gets judged as a would-be DE. This kind of answer is simply not the type that may encourage a person to take the next tiny steps towards the good side - I am saying that even if I otherwise understand Lily's reasons. From the point of view of Snape's development, it is very unfortunate that he is rejected when he has just realized how much this word can hurt and that he had hurt, with this word, the one he loves.
Of course, we don't know what would happen if Lily accepted his apology. However, what I really wanted to say in that post was that prior to their break-up, we never see Snape doing or saying anything that would definitely show he has already made his choice (consciously). Yes, we know Lily sees it in this way. But even she seems to think that mainly on the basis of the language he uses and the friends he has and not on the basis of any particular actions Snape does or any particular statement of his that might confirm his choice. I think JKR could have shown us something more definite if she wanted. I think the reason why she does not do that may be her intention to show us a Snape who has not decided yet, who cannot decide and does not (want to) see the necessity to choose. This may be because of insecurity, because of longing to find acceptance wherever he can and because of various other things. All I am saying is that he does not seem to be "evil" here to me, even though he is on a path that will lead him to an evil organization and to the guilt he will never get rid of - but I do not think he can see that (as we, the readers, do see). Lily warns him but he does not understand - and there are circumstances that do not help him at all: He is a Slytherin trying to be loyal to his house (as most teenage kids want to be loyal to and to conform to the ideas, values etc. of the group where they belong). The supposed "good guys" hex him and humiliate him even when he does not do anything to them (Wynnleaf explained that very well). Lily refuses him when he regrets using the M-word at least on one specific occasion (and the general use of the word seems to be his major "crime" in Lily's eyes) and the same Lily seems to like James Potter, whom Snape just cannot see as good or noble.
wynnleaf - Jun 20, 2008 6:42 pm (#2493 of 2617)
"You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" I don't think it can get much more plain than that.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that Lily did not believe it. She clearly did. But did she have any sort of real evidence? Was this just her gut feeling? And how about the "little Death Eater friends," what evidence did she have of that other than interests in Dark Arts and anti-muggleborn attitudes? After all, if Sirius said his parents (who were into Dark arts) didn't know what all LV was up to, how could Lily?
haymoni - Jun 20, 2008 7:40 pm (#2494 of 2617)
I think the next few lines are more telling:
"I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine."
"No - listen, I didn't mean - "
" - to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"
Of course, he should have spilled it all for her right there - that he loved her, he had always loved her, but alas, earwax, he didn't.
The lines were clearly being drawn back then. This isn't Malfoy calling Hermione names in Book 2 before Voldy came back. People knew what was going on. Lily had been giving Snape the benefit of the doubt, but once he turned things on her, there was no doubt at all as to where his loyalties belonged.
wynnleaf - Jun 20, 2008 9:37 pm (#2495 of 2617)
once he turned things on her (haymoni)
When did he turn things on her? Does anyone actually think Snape "turned on" Lily? I don't think his using the word "mudblood" shows he was loyal to Voldemort. Is that what you meant? All it takes is regular use of that word and we know somebody is serving LV? Somehow, I don't exactly think that's what you meant, but I'm not sure what you did mean.
And my point earlier is that JKR was pretty inconsistent about whether or not people did know what was really going on. According to Sirius, neither his parents, for all their involvement in the Dark Arts, nor Regulas knew what it was all really about. What do you feel is the evidence that people were able to tell "what was going on" as far as Voldemort's activities?
mona amon - Jun 20, 2008 10:17 pm (#2496 of 2617)
Was it clear to everyone that Avery and Mulciber were going to join a terrorist type group that specialized in killing and torturing people? I'm not sure because I think JKR has been somewhat contradictory about that. At the first of PS/SS, Dumbledore and McGonagall speak as though the war had gone on some time. Yet Sirius' comments on a number of occasions make it sound like Voldemort's true colors weren't readily apparent to the public until late in their school years, or perhaps just after they left Hogwarts. (Wynnleaf)
I think it was pretty clear to everyone that Voldemort and his DEs wanted to 'clean up' the wizarding world by getting rid of muggleborns. This is what made people like the Blacks think he had the right idea. I'm sure Lily had a pretty good idea of what was going on.
Further, we actually don't know that Snape was clearly on the path to follow Voldemort. Sirius said in GOF that apart from being in with friends who later became DEs, there was no hint that Snape went that way. If that's the case, then I can't see how we can say that it would be so plain to Lily that Snape was headed that way.
Lily was Snape's best friend for almost five years, so she would have known what he was up to a lot better than Sirius did. We know that Lily feels he wants to become a Death Eater. We know that Sev never denies it. In the absense of any evidence to the contrary, I think we are meant to conclude that Lily is right.
Still, this is when he does something in the other direction and this is exactly the moment when he gets judged as a would-be DE. This kind of answer is simply not the type that may encourage a person to take the next tiny steps towards the good side- (Julia)
Like I said before, she makes it clear to him that she is rejecting his apology not because she does not believe that he is sincerly sorry for using the M-word against her, but for other reasons. In other words, it is not his 'tiny step in the right direction' that she is rejecting, even from his point of view. He knows what she wants of him- "give up your fascination with a group that wants to get rid of muggleborns like me." But he is not able to do so.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 20, 2008 10:25 pm (#2497 of 2617)
When did he turn things on her?
Wow, really?
I think any time someone you are close to starts using hate language against you it's time to re-evaluate how much you really want that relationship to continue.
This is exactly what Lily did and the conclusion she came to was "no".
Julia H. - Jun 21, 2008 1:52 am (#2498 of 2617)
I think any time someone you are close to starts using hate language against you it's time to re-evaluate how much you really want that relationship to continue. (Quinn)
Quinn, this is so. Yet, Snape did not start "using hate language against her" in situations and in ways usually associated with "using hate language". I do not deny Lily's right to end the relationship. However, posters do not seem to totally agree whether Lily ended the relationship because of Snape's general use of the word or because he finally used it against her. At least some of the posts suggest this, others that. What seems to be canon is that Lily ended the relationship when Snape used the word against her, not when he used it against anyone else. Yet, the circumstances in this case were special: he used the word in his rage and humiliation, as even Harry understood. He clearly meant to say something that hurt but it was because he was also in pain, seeing the flirting between Lily and James as they quarrelled whether Snape's torture and humiliation should continue or not. No, it was not a good thing to use that word. But it was not the same when Malfoy used it against Hermione in CoS. It was not Lily who was being tortured or laughed at the moment. (Does anyone think that Snape would have used the word against her if she had been in a position of defeat or humiliation?) Moreover, he was apologizing and I think someone who does that cannot be regarded as being determined to hurt or to hate. Sincere apologies and the special circumstances together should make some difference, especially if he had never hurt her before. If Lily was primarily angry because Snape had used the word against her, she still might have considered these circumstances.
On the other hand, if she rejected Snape's general use of the word (rather than its use against her, personally) and the fact that he had not listened to her for a long time, well, then she just stopped trying to make him understand at the very moment when finally there seemed to be some faint chance that - in the hope of being forgiven - he might perhaps listen to her and might (in time) understand what she was trying to say. In that situation, being turned down (even if Lily had every right to refuse him) had the effect of pushing him further ahead in the wrong direction - more, I guess, than if she had forgiven - and in a moment when he was regretting the wrong he had done. So, why I understand that Lily happened to give up on him at that moment, I find it an unfortunately lost chance for someone who had allegedly been trying to make a friend see the light for a long time to give up just when she finally did have the opportunity to have a serious talk with him and to influence him. She gave up on him when he was vulnerable and needed a friend more than usually.
It is not at all clear whether ultimately it was personal pride that made her unforgiving when asked for forgiveness (her own words deny it) or more general principles (but then she lost the real opportunity to "convert" a long-time friend who had not yet done anything that made conversion and improvement impossible - although we are supposed to think that this had been her purpose for a long time). Then again there have been suggestions saying that this was simply a great opportunity for Lily to proudly end a relationship she did not want to keep up anyway.
Dryleaves - Jun 21, 2008 2:55 am (#2499 of 2617)
I think Snape seems extremely naive. He seems to seriously think not only that Lily will accept his "Death Eater friends", he also seems to think that they will accept her. I think the word "mudblood" means completely different things to Lily and Snape, and that she is the one who is closer to get what it actually means: that she and other people of her birth will be persecuted and killed. I think Snape uses it more as a general word of abuse, and he uses it to her in a situation where he is angry and humiliated.
At least to Snape I think it all is more about James Potter than it is about pure-bloods and Death Eaters. When Lily is on him about what Mulciber did he stops listen as soon as she calls James "an arrogant toerag". And even if Lily gets it all much better than Snape does, she maybe is not all clear about it either. It is all a bit blurry, after all, because though it is wrong to divide people into "pure-bloods" and "mudbloods", James can still bully Snape "because he exists" and the difference between evil Slytherin pranks and Marauder ones is never satisfactorily explained. It seems to be about who does it, not about what is done. In the scenes we see, Lily is close to explaining what she means in the apology scene, not before, and we never know if their earlier discussions ever got any further than being about not liking each other's friends and vague accusations of them being "evil". Now the discussions end. Maybe Lily thinks she is clear, and maybe she thinks Snape gets it and that he has understood all the time. I think what he probably sees is her choosing James Potter before him, not himself choosing Death Eaters before her.
wynnleaf - Jun 21, 2008 5:48 am (#2500 of 2617)
Dryleaves,
Excellent post and you put it so much more clearly than I did!
I think the blurriness of the distinctions are far harder for Snape to grasp because the Marauders are persecuting him personally and yet he would seem to think that Lily doesn't believe that the Marauders are as bad as Snape's friends.
And whatever a reader may want to imagine Lily had said to Snape, in the actual book we're never shown her giving any more than vague objections to Snape's friends being evil and into dark jokes, not that is until after she has decided once and for all to break off the friendship. Even then, she's not actually discussing with Snape and explaining, just primarily accusing without giving him an opportunity to answer back.
Does Lily truly understand Snape? No, I don't think so. Nor does she really give credence to his suspicions and observations. Snape is dead on right about Lupin, but Lily won't even consider his suspicions, preferring to believe whatever the story around her House is about Lupin's "illness". She won't give credence to anything Snape has to say about the Prank, once again preferring to believe whatever she's heard in her House about James' heroism, even though Snape would clearly know a whole lot more about it than her.
And she certainly doesn't "get" it that Snape does not really see where she is making a distinction between use of Dark magic for mean jokes or whatever, versus out-and-out bullying by non-Dark Magic methods. And it's impossible for me to blame Snape for not getting it, because I don't get it either as we never are shown that what the difference is. (Remembering that use of Dark Magic against others isn't the same thing as "pureblood prejudice". They are two different wrongs of which the Death Eaters make use of both.)
Julia and Quinn,
I agree with Julia. As I see it, Lily did not reject Snape because she thought he had personally turned against her specifically, having used the mudblood word in a highly stressful situation. Instead, she thought his use of the term - so pervasive that he finally used it on even his friend - was indicative of the bad directions that he was pursuing.
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mona amon - Jun 21, 2008 6:50 am (#2501 of 2617)
Does Lily truly understand Snape? No, I don't think so. Nor does she really give credence to his suspicions and observations. Snape is dead on right about Lupin, but Lily won't even consider his suspicions, preferring to believe whatever the story around her House is about Lupin's "illness". She won't give credence to anything Snape has to say about the Prank, once again preferring to believe whatever she's heard in her House about James' heroism, even though Snape would clearly know a whole lot more about it than her.
These two kids certainly seem to have a knack for not hearing what the other is saying, LOL!
Quinn Crockett - Jun 21, 2008 9:25 am (#2502 of 2617)
she thought his use of the term - so pervasive that he finally used it on even his friend - was indicative of the bad directions that he was pursuing. - Wynnleaf
Yeah, that's what I think too. Very well put.
But what I don't agree with is that it was Lilly's responsibility to reign Snape in, to "convert" him (I think as Julia said). Nor should she be forcibly obligated to stand there and listen to (in her mind) his empty apology.
Snape blew it with her, plain and simple. He went too far. There are some lines that, once crossed, cannot ever be regained.
Julia H. - Jun 21, 2008 9:27 am (#2503 of 2617)
He knows what she wants of him- "give up your fascination with a group that wants to get rid of muggleborns like me." But he is not able to do so. (Mona)
So maybe he does not really know or understand it - not the second part anyway (to get rid of muggleborns like me). That is he does not know why Lily wants him to do it.
I think Dryleaves and Wynnleaf explain the communication barrier between Lily and Snape very well.
But what I don't agree with is that it was Lilly's responsibility to reign Snape in, to "convert" him (I think as Julia said). Nor should she be forcibly obligated to stand there and listen to (in her mind) his empty apology. (Quinn)
I did not at all mean it was Lily's responsibility or obligation (although people are in a way responsible for their friends if they can help them when these friends need help and she could have listened to the apology and still break up with him but this is not what I was saying). I was merely saying that it seems to be implied that Lily had actually wanted to make Snape understand what the problem was with his friends and his ways and that in this case it is very unfortunate that she stopped wanting that just at the moment when he would probably have been more easily influenced by her than ever before.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 21, 2008 9:58 am (#2504 of 2617)
She probably did want to make Severus understand. But how many times does Lily have to crack her head against a brick wall before it's appropriate for her to go and stop the bleeding?
Why do people assume that Snape "just didn't understand" what becoming a Death Eater truly meant? I mean, if your best friend, the girl you're in love with, can't convince you that you're on the wrong path...
That strikes me as true dedication, not blind misunderstanding.
Solitaire - Jun 21, 2008 10:09 am (#2505 of 2617)
She won't give credence to anything Snape has to say about the Prank, once again preferring to believe whatever she's heard in her House about James' heroism
If I remember correctly, Snape says that Dumbledore forbade him to mention anything about Remus--and what could he have made of the Prank without telling anyone that Remus was a werewolf? Isn't it possible that Lily never knew about the Prank while she was in school?
Solitaire
Dryleaves - Jun 21, 2008 10:13 am (#2506 of 2617)
Why do people assume that Snape "just didn't understand" what becoming a Death Eater truly meant? (Quinn)
Because he thinks he can have both Lily and the Death Eaters. He is not the one who actively and deliberately breaks their friendship. He never defends the DE ideology, just his friends, by comparing them to the Marauders.
Solitaire - Jun 21, 2008 10:51 am (#2507 of 2617)
Snape is many things, but stupid has never been one of them. I find it difficult to believe he did not think long and hard before joining the DEs. Is it possible that he is unable to give up his "fascination with a group that wants to get rid of muggleborns" because he has already taken the mark by this point?
Solitaire
Julia H. - Jun 21, 2008 5:12 pm (#2508 of 2617)
Isn't it possible that Lily never knew about the Prank while she was in school? (Solitaire)
Lily to Snape: "And you are being ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there-" (The Prince's Tale)
So, although Dumbledore forbade Snape to talk about Lupin's secret, that did not stop James (or Sirius, we do not know) from bragging about saving Snape. Snape does not see it that way but he cannot tell her his own version of the story because of his promise. He does try to tell her that James Potter was saving his neck and his friends' too but Lily is not interested in this and Snape does not mention that it was Sirius who tricked him into going to a dangerous place to start with. So, on the one hand, Lily knows James's (abridged) version of the prank and is not very much interested in whatever Snape may want to add and, on the other hand, Snape cannot tell her much, since he has promised to keep the secret.
Is it possible that he is unable to give up his "fascination with a group that wants to get rid of muggleborns" because he has already taken the mark by this point?
We can imagine that but there is no proof in canon. It would probably have been important enough for JKR to mention if she had wanted us to think that. If he joined the DE's when he had no other "friends" than other would-be DE's, he may not have thought long and hard. This is what I said about how young people who do not learn at home what being accepted and valued means will be more likely to do anything to find acceptance in any kind of a group they happen to find themselves in.
Snape is not at all stupid but I think at this point at least, his intelligence is the IQ type but not really the EQ type. He does not know how to make real friends (I do not count the "gang") or how to keep the only friend he has, he does not know how to be liked and popular (something James knows very well) and he may not understand the people around him very well. Realizing what Voldemort stands for is not an IQ problem, it takes something else. Later, Snape will change in this respect, since, as a spy, he will be able to manipulate the bad guys, which implies improvement (regarding EQ), but he will never be good at real relationships with people.
But how many times does Lily have to crack her head against a brick wall before it's appropriate for her to go and stop the bleeding? (Quinn)
Obviously, only as many times as she is willing to. But she would be more admirable if she could forgive and accept sincere apologies just once after being hurt by a long-time friend, who is in distress, and even then she could make her conditions clear. But, clearly, only if she is willing to.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 21, 2008 8:11 pm (#2509 of 2617)
But she would be more admirable if she could forgive and accept sincere apologies just once after being hurt by a long-time friend, who is in distress, and even then she could make her conditions clear. But, clearly, only if she is willing to. - Julia
I don't see anything remotely unworthy of admiration in Lily's treatment of Snape. On the contrary, she stuck by him for several years even though she knew exactly where he was headed. She tried to make him see her point of view, he refused to listen. She stuck by him in spite of his obvious affiliation and in spite of the fact that everyone else she knew actively discouraged her from keeping her relationship with Snape.
I would also argue that she was not hurt "just once" but repeatedly by the fact that, try as she might, she could never "convert him" ; could never get through to him what Voldemort and the Death Eater agenda truly were all about.
She had already been slowly losing him for years, yet she specifically chose to continue that relationship for his sake. She didn't need to, she had plenty of other friends, friends she probably had a lot more in common with than "we grew up in the same neighborhood". But she knew he didn't have many friends, that he was shy, an outcast, etc. For pete's sake, she is the only one in the entire crowd of people - including any of his Slytherin brethren who may have been present - who openly stood up for him against the bully James.
There is only so much a person can take. Lily had reached her limit.
As for Snape's "sincere apology" yes, it was "un moment difficile" for Snape. But what else is Lily supposed to think when the place where Severus immediately goes to is one where he lashes out at her in the most hateful, hurtful way short of physical violence he can? And after all she has done for him?
And why go there at all? Was he afraid that his Slytherin friends/gang - who, if they were around weren't doing a bloody thing to help him - might get the wrong idea? Had he already been accused of being a ... whatever epithet might be used to describe being in love with a Muggle-born? Who was he shouting that word for, exactly?
In other words, Snape made his choice in that moment; and he chose appearances over his "best friend". I think that is why it's his Worst Memory. Ironically, he spent the rest of his life keeping up those same appearances in Lily's name.
Solitaire - Jun 21, 2008 8:38 pm (#2510 of 2617)
I heard what happened the other night. Wow! Someone must have performed an obliviating charm on me! LOL
she would be more admirable if she could forgive and accept sincere apologies Perhaps she does not believe that he is sincere, given his unwillingness to give up the "DE connection."
mona amon - Jun 21, 2008 9:34 pm (#2511 of 2617)
For pete's sake, she is the only one in the entire crowd of people - including any of his Slytherin brethren who may have been present - who openly stood up for him against the bully James. (Quinn)
No matter how many times I read it or how many opposing opinions I hear, I just can't change my first impression of that scene. I don't find anything to admire in Lily's actions, and much to find fault with. If she was sincerely concerned about her friend, how long would it have taked her to rescue him by pointing her wand at him and saying 'Finite Incantatem'? Instead she has to have this dramatic confrontation with James, which seems very theatrical to me. There is a total absense of genuine indignation on her part. I certainly don't blame Snape for not being too pleased with her 'Noble Lily Bravely Standing Up for the Underdog' act.
As for his Slytherin friends, there is no indication that they were present, or I'm sure they would have stood up for him. According to Snape the Marauders used to pick on him when he was alone, and I see no reason to doubt what he says.
Perhaps she does not believe that he is sincere, given his unwillingness to give up the "DE connection." (Solitaire)
I think she believes he is sincerely sorry for hurting her, but she has given up all hope that she will be able to steer him away from his chosen path.
(Edited)
Anna L. Black - Jun 22, 2008 7:57 am (#2512 of 2617)
Mona, I agree about Lily. That isn't the behaviour I'd expect from one's friend. I guess that JKR had to make it appear as though Lily and Snape didn't have anything to do with each other, so as not to spoil DH, but when I'm reading this scene now, in retrospect, neither of them acts friendly to each other. Snape not only calls her mudblood, it's "Filthy little Mudblood", which is really a hate-filled expression(or so it sounds to me, at least).
Solitaire - Jun 22, 2008 8:40 am (#2513 of 2617)
Is it possible that Lily didn't know how to stop that jinx? Harry was a fifth year, and he couldn't (or didn't) stop the Tarantallegra jinx performed on Neville in the DoM. Lupin had to do that. I realize it might have been more powerful, as it was performed by a DE ... but he didn't try. Was he just too scared or flustered, or did he not know how to stop it? Is it possible that Jame's curse, like Snape's Sectumsempra, had a special counter-curse?
Speaking of Sectumsempra ... I wondered if that was the curse used on Hermione in the DoM. Dolohov used the same slashing motion on Harry that he'd used on Hermione, and Harry, even though he'd used the Shield Charm, "felt something streak across his face like a blunt knife." The curse, whatever it was, seemed to have caused quite a bit of damage to Hermione. Do you suppose other DEs might have picked it up from Snape? Lupin said in DH that "Sectumsempra was always a speciality of Snape's," so it sounds like he used it in front of classmates when he was in school. Perhaps he used it with the DEs when they would go out on their little ... jobs.
Solitaire
Julia H. - Jun 22, 2008 10:01 am (#2514 of 2617)
But what else is Lily supposed to think when the place where Severus immediately goes to is one where he lashes out at her in the most hateful, hurtful way short of physical violence he can? And after all she has done for him? (Quinn)
I agree with Mona that in the Worst Memory Scene Lily pays much more attention to James than to Snape, whom she is saving. (She does not even talk to her friend until he offends him.) As for keeping up the friendship with Snape for years, I don’t think Lily kept it up only for Snape’s sake for all those years, at least nothing implies that. Yes, Lily had other friends but she may not have got as much admiration from all of them, as she (according to the first few memory scenes in The Prince’s Tale) got from Snape. The fact that both of them are known as exceptionally good potions-makers indicates they had interests in common and I don’t think Lily knew all these years exactly where he was headed.
Who was he shouting that word for, exactly?
In other words, Snape made his choice in that moment; and he chose appearances over his "best friend".
No, Snape did not shout that word to keep up appearances. Where is it mentioned that Snape tried to keep their friendship a secret from anyone? Harry understood that Snape shouted the word in his rage and his humiliation. It was not because he wanted to deceive anyone, no. He meant to say something that hurt and, as others have pointed out, the swear word typical of his house and one he himself used as well came to his tongue but for him at that moment it had much more to do with James Potter trying to arrange a date with Lily while crushing Snape’s dignity in front of all those people (including her) than with Lily’s birth or his Slytherin friends. Why did he shout that word? He was reacting to everything that was happening to him and around him and, more specifically, to the most painful part of it: Lily’s presence, Lily seeing it all and Lily flirting with James. The I don’t need help part may mean “I don’t want to be helped at the cost of this”.
You see, between telling the truth and lying, there is the situation where one does not say exactly what (s)he feels or thinks but expresses it with words that on the surface (regarding dictionary meaning) mean something different than what they mean in the given situation. At a certain level, we do this every day. A question like “Shall we drink coffee?” may in a certain (but not every) situation mean “Please, make some coffee”. In a state of extreme stress, fury, despair (etc.) certain words have situational meanings very different from their dictionary meanings. Even actions can have “situational meanings”: a suicide attempt does not always mean the person wants to die. It may simply mean the person needs attention.
Many posts ago, Solitaire had a very good question: Have you ever deliberately said something hurtful to someone you love, out of your own hurt or anger? If so, how do you feel? Guilty and ashamed, most likely ... especially if the thing you have said is not really how you feel.
Well, I have. Only once. I said something I did not mean, something I would not have thought myself capable of saying at all and to a person very close to me. We made up in minutes and many years have passed and it is still a very bad memory but my first reaction to myself was astonishment and disbelief at my own action. Yes, things like that happen. Probably, there are people who never do that. They are lucky. Others do and they are still lucky if they are understood and forgiven. In other cases, it may destroy a relationship between two people. This is what happens to Snape and Lily. But the word he said was not for any Slytherins. It expressed his feelings though not by the literal meaning of the word and in a situation where his feelings were too complex and too private and maybe too confusing for him to shout what he really felt.
What is his reaction to his own word? Let’s see what happens: He shouts those terrible words at her. She answers. James is indignant, demands that Snape apologize. Lily refuses that, tells him off for the last time and leaves. Next, James is talking to Sirius. Sirius answers. Then James, in his anger, curses Snape again and continues torturing him. All the time while these various people are talking, Snape is silent and, apparently, he is not doing anything at all. It is strange, because during all this talk, he could run away (and with good reason) or could find his wand, perhaps even fight back, though leaving would probably be the most sensible action. Yet he stays without doing or saying anything at all. He does not even prepare for the possibility of being attacked again, not even when Lily has already left. Why? In OOTP JKR does not want to show us why this is Snape’s worst memory but I think his passivity in those minutes while he is still disarmed in front of his enemies but could do something (we have seen that his reactions can be quick) is a sign that he is shocked by his own words, by what he has just done. What he said, bad as it was, did not have the purpose of keeping up appearances or choosing anybody. It was an expression of rage and jealousy and pain at being humiliated and it was like a cry: uncontrolled and desperate.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 22, 2008 11:25 am (#2515 of 2617)
Wow! Pesky Pixie should be pleased
she has to have this dramatic confrontation with James, which seems very theatrical to me. There is a total absense of genuine indignation on her part. - Mona Amon
Ha! That's true. Well, even so, her "best friend" could have just said, "Stay out of it, Lily!" Instead his immediate reaction is to fire off "the M word" at her. And not even just "the M word" but, as someone else pointed out the even more hateful "filthy little mudblood!" with an exclamation point.
I hadn't considered that she could simply have "finito'd" the spell James was using. Maybe Lily didn't either? In any case, good point on that.
Even so, Lily is the only one who came forward in Sev's defense, however perfunctory it may have ultimately been.
I don’t think Lily kept it up only for Snape’s sake for all those years, at least nothing implies that.
Wow, really? Nothing? Because she pretty much tells him this flat out. ("I can't pretend any more".)
Both of them being "good at potions" is hardly an indication of shared interests beyond the school curriculum - or even that particular subject.
In other cases, [saying something hateful] may destroy a relationship between two people. Which is what happened here. Well, combined with everything else.
It was an expression of rage and jealousy and pain at being humiliated and it was like a cry: uncontrolled and desperate.
Whether you point a gun at someone intentionally, or it accidentally "goes off" and hits them, in the end they are still dead. Severus shouldn't have been playing with guns.
It's interesting how people seem so quick to excuse Snape for everything ("But he didn't know how bad Voldemort was... " "But he was being attacked... " "But he didn't mean it..." "But he was socially awkward..." "But he didn't have any friends..." "But he came from an abusive home..." "But he was poor...") and put all the blame on Lily.
I mean, I like the Snape character too, but he's no Oliver Twist. He's not some victim of circumstance. He made certain choices that did not always have the consequences he hoped they would.
Julia H. - Jun 22, 2008 1:19 pm (#2516 of 2617)
Edited Jun 22, 2008 2:08 pm
Well, even so, her "best friend" could have just said, "Stay out of it, Lily!" (Quinn)
Had he been cool-headed, yes. But he was not. It is not a virtue and nobody has ever said he did the right thing when he called her a Mudblood. But it was not as if she had been attacked and he had wanted to hurt her from a position of any power. That his reaction is so strong (rather than what you suggest) shows how much he is affected emotionally.
Wow, really? Nothing? Because she pretty much tells him this flat out. ("I can't pretend any more".)
Well, does she say why she pretended? Does she say she excused him only for his sake? Why anyway? If his friendship never meant anything to her, if she knew from the first moment on where he was heading (as you implied), why would she keep up the friendship for his sake only and for years? It does not make sense to me.
Both of them being "good at potions" is hardly an indication of shared interests beyond the school curriculum - or even that particular subject.
Maybe not in real life. But since this is mentioned in a novel, I don't think it is an accident (plotwise) that they were very good at the same subject. If JKR put it there, it probably has some purpose.
Whether you point a gun at someone intentionally, or it accidentally "goes off" and hits them, in the end they are still dead. Severus shouldn't have been playing with guns.
I find this simile a bit strong.
It's interesting how people seem so quick to excuse Snape for everything ... and put all the blame on Lily.
It is interesting how other people do not want to see the less obvious side of the story. (Sorry. Pesky must be having fun. )
I do not put "all the blame" on Lily. But when Snape is blamed for not listening to her, I cannot help noticing that she was not as absolutely supporting and perfect as she is often made out to be. After all, she was only another teenager, who may not have been able to do more. But then at least Snape's part of the blame should not be increased by the notion that he had this wonderful best friend who always knew what he should have done. The communication between them was not that straightforward. And I find some contradiction in the ideas that, on the one hand, Lily only "pretended" being his friend for the sake of Snape, who did not deserve it, and, on the other hand, that she was or should have been some kind of "beacon" for him. If someone just pretends friendship but is tired of her "friend" in reality, she won't be able to do much for this friend, who will (consciously or not) always feel that he is not getting back the same kind of love and respect as what he is giving. If Lily was only "pretending" friendship all these years, as you say, (if this is what we are meant to think), then all her efforts to save Snape were bound to fail, as Snape was bound to "retaliate" sooner or later as a result of feeling this (long-term) lack of sincerity and as she was bound to turn her back on him in the first really convenient moment no matter how much at that moment he needed a friend. (Truly, your idea of Lily keeping up the relationship only for Snape's sake for years opens new perspectives of interpretation.)
Snape cannot be excused for everything. I don't know if you have noticed that I have repeated several times it was wrong he used that word, it was wrong that he joined the DE's. However, JKR provides such a background to his bad choices that it is ultimately (from a psychological point of view) understandable why he made those bad choices and why he made those mistakes. The road that leads to these bad choices is very well shown. There are reasons. Reasons are not the same as excuses but they are still important. Yes, in many ways, Snape is a victim. From other viewpoints, he did make those bad, tragic choices. But the fact that he is able to change later, when he is much further down the wrong road than in his school-years, the fact that he is changed by love in the first place and by receiving a helping hand indicates (to me at least) that his original moral downfall might not have been inevitable. Yes, he could have made better choices, I agree with that. But maybe love and help (more than what he actually got) could have made him avoid these bad choices, just as these two things made him change later, when it was probably more difficult to change. Yes, it would have been much better if he had avoided these bad choices alone. However, some people just need help and acceptance and Snape, with all his flaws, seems to be one of these people and there was nobody to give him these things. Not even Lily.
Dryleaves - Jun 22, 2008 1:32 pm (#2517 of 2617)
In retrospective we know that it is a really bad thing to join the Death Eaters, but how clear was it then? From the conversations we see between Lily and Snape, I think what Lily says about the evil of Snape's Slytherin friends is very vague. We know that there is a difference between the Death Eaters and the Marauders, because the Marauders stop at being mere bullies, when the Death Eaters go on and do much worse things, they end up as torturers and murderers, but how clear was that difference then? Snape certainly does not see the difference. Lily may have a clue, but how strong is it and how well can she clarify it to Snape? Maybe she cannot fully clarify it to herself and maybe there is no clear evidence to provide at this point. The difference that can be seen may just not be there by this time. We cannot blame Lily for not being able to convey it. Still, from this point of view it may be less evident why Snape has to choose between his Slytherin friends and Lily, while she does not have to choose between him and the Gryffindors. The problem may not be how evil the "evil guys" seem, but how the "good guys" seem to lack goodness.
Later, so many great words are said. "James always hated the dark arts" - or did he just use to say that to excuse his bullying? Snape chooses his way and Lily hers - but to me it seems as if it is his lack of choice that results in a choice, as Lily chooses to end the friendship because of it. Did he fully understand the choice? (And by asking this I do not mean that Lily should be blamed for her choice, I can understand her perfectly).
Later there is a war full of cruelty and with disastrous consequences, but at this time it seems to me as if the conflict is most of all about two teenage boys wanting the same girl, and possibly also the old Slytherin against Gryffindor thing. One of the boys has all the traditional attributes of the successful one, the other conspicuously lacks those attributes and has his mind completely set on this lack and how to compensate it. I cannot help thinking that to Snape the Death Eaters are most of all a Slytherin alternative to the Marauders, individuals making up their own moral standards to follow, a group to be behind you whatever you do.
I do not consider wanting to join either group for these reasons very sympathetic. But it is a slightly different reason to join than a strictly intellectual consideration of the group's ideology and a true devotion to it, and when analysing characters of a fictional work I think that difference is of importance, if not in a real world courtroom. I do not say Snape had no clue whatsoever what the Death Eaters were about, but as he seems to think they are compatible with being friends with Lily I think he has missed at least some of the nuances.
Solitaire - Jun 22, 2008 2:34 pm (#2518 of 2617)
I don’t think Lily kept it up only for Snape’s sake for all those years, at least nothing implies that.
Wow, really? Nothing? Because she pretty much tells him this flat out. ("I can't pretend any more".)
Couldn't "I can't pretend anymore" simply mean "I can't pretend anymore that your association with the Death Eaters doesn't matter"?
Yes, it would have been much better if he had avoided these bad choices alone. However, some people just need help and acceptance and Snape, with all his flaws, seems to be one of these people and there was nobody to give him these things. Not even Lily.
It does seem as if Lily did give Snape acceptance for many years ... but he forfeited it when he persisted in following the DEs. It does not sound as if this is the only conversation they have had about this issue. It has been suggested, if I understand correctly, that Lily just kind of gave up on Snape, or maybe her friendship wasn't genuine. However, if he truly loved and valued Lily, we might wonder why he didn't look more closely at her reasons for hating the Dark Arts.
I can't think that Dumbledore was completely ignorant that some of his students--mainly (although obviously not only) those associated with Slytherin House--were becoming more and more deeply involved in Voldemort's activities. After all, Dumbledore seems to have a pretty good idea of what is happening around Hogwarts ... unless he was so busy with Order business that he was an absentee Headmaster (and I can certainly relate to how things can fall apart when that happens). I also wonder why Slughorn wasn't more involved in helping his students make good choices. He was, after all, Slytherin's Head of House at that time. Then again, is it possible that one or more of the teachers at Hogwarts did attempt to reason with Snape and his friends regarding Voldemort and they were ignored? Just a thought ...
Solitaire
Julia H. - Jun 22, 2008 3:29 pm (#2519 of 2617)
Edited Jun 22, 2008 4:18 pm
However, if he truly loved and valued Lily, we might wonder why he didn't look more closely at her reasons for hating the Dark Arts. (Solitaire)
Well, yes, we might... It seems he was much more interested in her opinion about James than in her opinion about the Dark Arts.
I agree that the teachers, precisely Dumbledore and Slughorn, had some responsibility, because not only Snape became a DE but also a whole gang graduated from the school, all becoming DE's, then also Pettigrew, a few years before them Malfoy at least, we also know about Regulus, and a generation later, at least Draco, Crabbe and Goyle (and probably some other kids) became LV's followers. The teachers knew how these Slytherin kids were selected and put into the same house, so they could have had a special programme or at least some extra attention for them to prevent the worst at least. DD's fight against LV is not a very good excuse, since he may have thought it important not to supply LV with well-trained future followers. I don't think any of them attempted to reason with Snape, because there is no indication at all that they did. It seems Snape as a kid never got any serious attention or positive interest from any adults. It is sad because we know Snape looked like "a plant kept in the dark" - a teacher could notice a kid like that is missing something. BTW Slughorn exclaims in HBP, Snape! ... I thought I knew him!, implying he did not have a bad opinion about him. Hm...
Quinn Crockett - Jun 22, 2008 5:58 pm (#2520 of 2617)
If his friendship never meant anything to her, if she knew from the first moment on where he was heading (as you implied)
Hm. That's not what I said, though. What I actually said was that she could have let the friendship die a natural death since they both had other friends, other activities, other budding interests. But she maintained the friendship anyway, in spite of her clear objections, in spite of the challenges in keeping the friendship going.
On "I can't pretend any more". I think this means several things at once.
"I can't pretend that your association with the Death Eaters doesn't matter" (thanks, Solitaire)
"I can't pretend that we're still the children we once were, innocently exploring our new-found abilities. We know who we are and what we're about and we have a certain responsibility with this power."
"I can't pretend that we still have anything in common."
"I can't pretend that I'll love you and be your friend no matter what."
"I can't pretend that what you're doing with your Death Eater friends is 'just a phase' and that you'll snap out of it some day."
"I can't pretend that it doesn't break my heart to see you go down that road, the one where I cannot follow".
"I can't pretend that you haven't hurt me very deeply and in the most hateful way possible."
Slughorn seems to be kind of caught up in his own "coat tail riding" so it doesn't surprise me that he didn't have much of an influence on the budding Death Eaters of Snape's generation. Dumbledore is a bit of another matter. He is all for "choices" but, as any parent or educator knows, there are times when those "choices" should be limited (i.e "You can have an apple or a banana, but you can not have a cookie".)
(Is that simile better, Julia )
Dryleaves - Jun 23, 2008 1:39 am (#2521 of 2617)
However, if he truly loved and valued Lily, we might wonder why he didn't look more closely at her reasons for hating the Dark Arts. (Solitaire)
Well, yes, we might... It seems he was much more interested in her opinion about James than in her opinion about the Dark Arts. (Julia)
Yes, Snape is sadly James-centered. Had he been more Lily-centered he might have listened better. And if he had been able to tell her how he felt, she would maybe have understood his point of view better and been able to explain why she did not approve of the dark arts and that this was important to her. Now all that Snape seems to think of is that Lily must not choose James Potter, and he does not see himself as bad and James as good. James seems powerful rather than good and his power seems not to be that much lighter than any dark arts.
Then again, is it possible that one or more of the teachers at Hogwarts did attempt to reason with Snape and his friends regarding Voldemort and they were ignored? (Solitaire)
Dumbledore is a bit of another matter. He is all for "choices" but, as any parent or educator knows, there are times when those "choices" should be limited (Quinn)
DD's fight against LV is not a very good excuse, since he may have thought it important not to supply LV with well-trained future followers. (Julia)
The adults at Hogwarts seem to be rather absent. It seems as if Lily is very much alone in her attempts to convert Severus. Even when Harry is at school the adults seem to leave the students to themselves quite a lot. DD's "choices" policy sometimes seem pretty much as "laissez-faire" to me and the chats he has with Harry are, as I understand it, an exception to the rule. It would seem an important thing to try to stop the recruiting of new followers of Voldemort. If choice is important it is cynical to let an eleven-year-old choose what house to be in, what information do they have beforehand and is a child at that age ready to process such information correctly? And then you offer no guidance. And why appoint a man you want to use as spy in the future Head of Slytherin House? He may be able to get information, yes, but he also has to keep up appearances and pretend to not divert too much from DE views.
Julia H. - Jun 23, 2008 3:34 am (#2522 of 2617)
Yes, Quinn, I like this simile (or metaphor actually).
I also agree with these interpretations of "I can't pretend any more". I guess there was a reason why Lily "pretended" or "made excuses" for Snape, so his friendship must have been important to her for a while - after all Snape was not simply "a kid from the same neighbourhood" but also Lily's first ever connection to the wizarding world and, as a result, to a better understanding of herself. But the friendship may have died before the worst memory scene and what remained was this "pretence". Snape may even have felt that he was losing her and perhaps he reacted to this feeling but in the wrong way: with jealousy (though not totally without reason) and by trying to cling to "other friends" as well. (Just a thought...)
Dryleaves, I absolutely agree with your analysis of DD's "laissez-faire" approach to choices and to Slytherin House. If never before, then at least in a dangerous political situation, it was the duty of a school and especially of DD (being both a headmaster and the leader of the fight against Voldemort and also this super-intelligent man with the ability to understand where things were heading) to attempt to prevent young people educated in his school from making such bad choices.
And why appoint a man you want to use as spy in the future Head of Slytherin House? (Dryleaves)
This is a very good question. If DD had not wanted to use Snape as a spy, the idea that someone who had made a bad choice and found out at his cost how bad it really was could convincingly guide "at risk" students through a maze of conflicting ideologies would make sense - especially that this teacher was much younger than most/all other teachers, so in this sense "closer" to those who needed guidance. (Even in this case, Snape's damaged psyche and the fact that he himself needed guidance would have made this job quite a challenge for him.) However, since Snape had to be ambiguous all the time, he had no chance to give any kind of authentic guidance to anyone. DD may have appointed him as Head of Slytherin House because he was the only Slytherin teacher at the moment - but that would be a case of rules above reason. It is also possible that DD's purpose was to enable Snape to keep an eye on DE kids - but the chance of moral guidance was sacrificed anyway.
Solitaire - Jun 23, 2008 9:33 am (#2523 of 2617)
DD may have appointed him as Head of Slytherin House because he was the only Slytherin teacher at the moment - but that would be a case of rules above reason.
I think it makes sense for Snape to be Slytherin Head of House, because it puts him in the catbird seat as far as hearing any bits of DE gossip that Draco (who loves to sound important) may drop ... and Lucius does seem to be one of the biggest DEs on the loose who has his finger in the MoM pie. Does anyone know how long Snape has been Head of House? If it was a relatively recent appointment, could it have been in anticipation of Harry's re-entry into the magical world? Dumbledore must have known (considering he removed the Sorcerer's Stone from Gringott's) that things would start to heat up again, and he would also have been aware that Lucius's son would be coming to Hogwarts the same year Harry was. This would just be another opportunity to exploit Snape's connection to Voldemort and the DEs, though Draco.
BTW, has anyone mentioned that Snape always calls Draco by his first name, yet he calls nearly everyone else by their last names? Just an observation ...
Solitaire
Dryleaves - Jun 23, 2008 10:09 am (#2524 of 2617)
I think it makes sense for Snape to be Slytherin Head of House, because it puts him in the catbird seat as far as hearing any bits of DE gossip that Draco (who loves to sound important) may drop ... (Solitaire)
From this point of view it is understandable, but if you think of it from the perspective of guidance of the students it is not such a good idea, I think, as Snape has to act as if he is a DE that pretends not to be a DE, and is not really able to truly influence his students in the right way (apart from the fact that he, as Julia writes, is in need of some guidance himself...). Are the Slytherin students "sacrificed" for the greater good, or could DD get sufficient information on Voldemort in another way and have a Head of House that could lead the students on to the right path?
I do not know for how long Snape had been Head of House. I think it must have been before Harry started at Hogwarts, because nobody mentions that he is new as Head of House in PS/SS, I think, but it is said about him that he is known to favour students from his own House. But I am not sure it would be such a good idea to appoint him Head of House as soon as he started to teach, as he was inexperienced, very young and remembered as a fellow student by the older students (but that could be an explanation for his favouritism, of course).
BTW, has anyone mentioned that Snape always calls Draco by his first name, yet he calls nearly everyone else by their last names? Just an observation ... (Solitaire)
I have noticed this (but I do not know if I ever mentioned it). It is one of the things that makes me wonder about the relationship between Snape and the Malfoys, how close they are, if they really like each other, etc.
Julia H. - Jun 23, 2008 10:11 am (#2525 of 2617)
I don't think we know when Snape became Slytherin Head of House. In PS, he is introduced as Slytherin Head of House and that is all. Actually even before Harry's arrival, even in the early years after LV's downfall, watching DE kids may have been useful.
Yes, he calls Draco by his first name, though I think in the earlier books perhaps he calls him 'Malfoy' - I don't know how consistent he is. It could be interesting to check whether he starts calling him by his first name only after Voldemort's return or he calls him Draco from the beginning... In the later books, he probably always calls him Draco. Of course, he may have already known him before Draco started school. In HBP and DH, it seems he is genuinely interested in what happens to Draco, although again it is hard to tell if we cannot see into him. (Somewhere outside this forum I read speculations that Snape called Draco by his first name and then in HBP he called Tonks 'Nymphadora', and whether this indicates that Tonks had been in his house - but then he called Crabbe by his last name in OOTP, in spite of Crabbe being a Slytherin.)
Quinn Crockett - Jun 23, 2008 10:11 am (#2526 of 2617)
Edited Jun 23, 2008 10:55 am
Oh yeah. Metaphor. Oops...
Snape may even have felt that he was losing her and perhaps he reacted to this feeling but in the wrong way. - Julia
Yes, I think so too. I think they must have both felt it for some time, actually, and that we get a sense of that from the snippet of their conversation we're shown where Severus needs that assurance that they're "still 'best' friends". Also there is something in the way the two are so quick to tacitly accuse each other of ruining that friendship with the "Your friends are terrible." "No yours are!" argument.
Of course, the both mean different things by these accusations. Snape means, "Can't you see that I'm in love with you and that I can't stand to see you getting close to my arch-rival??"; whereas Lily just means pretty much what she says.
I think that separation might have been even harder on Lily, in some ways, than it was for Snape, in part precisely because Snape was Lily's first ever connection to the wizarding world and, as a result, to a better understanding of herself. (Beautifully stated, Julia). I'm certainly not denying that he was devastated by losing that relationship, because he absolutely was. But for her, she seems to have known it was a long time coming ("I can't pretend any more.") and so every interaction between them must have had a certain sting to it, knowing this might be the last time they would speak; the things left unsaid, did she do enough to try to turn him from the road to the Death Eaters, etc.
What I'm trying to say here is that, if it hadn't been for this sort of build-up of ... underlying anguish about him, I think she probably would have forgiven Severus for the Worst Memory; that it might actually have been just the sort of opening he could have run through to tell her how he really felt. But instead it became the final nail in the coffin. (Boy, I hope I make sense on this, even if none of you agree).
I actually think it's strange that Dumbledore would appoint someone so young to be Head of House, regardless of his political affiliations. How could he expect someone barely out of school himself to have any control over his students? I also think that, as Head of House, it really fell to Slughorn to re-direct any wayward Slytherins. Isn't that kind of his job? I mean, the headmaster must count on these other Heads for that very reason.
ETA: Oh, I guess I assumed that Snape was appointed as Head when he was hired. It's true that we don't actually know when he was given that position, though.
Julia H. - Jun 23, 2008 10:51 am (#2527 of 2617)
Edited Jun 23, 2008 11:41 am
Boy, I hope I make sense on this, even if none of you agree (Quinn)
I think what you say makes a lot of sense and it all sounds quite probable to me.
EDIT: I skimmed through the Snape-quotes in half-bloodprince.org and I found that before OOTP, Snape never says 'Draco', only 'Malfoy'. In OOTP and after OOTP, he always says 'Draco'. (In GOF, he does not say either.)
wynnleaf - Jun 23, 2008 11:50 am (#2528 of 2617)
As far as how long Snape was Head of Slytherin, perhaps there's a hint in what appears to be a long-standing rivalry between McGonagall and Snape for the House Cup (or is it the Quidditch cup?). Anyway, McGonagall makes the comment that implies Snape has been picking on her for years about Slytherin winning over Gryffindor.
Sorry, but I can't recall where this is. I'll try to look it up.
Edit. I'm not finding it, since I don't know where to look, but I'm pretty sure I read it very recently. McGonagall mentioned it herself, and said something about Snape saying to her recently that Slytherin had won the cup for the past 7 years (or something like that), and it sounds as though to an extent this is an ongoing rivalry the two professors have had for years.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 23, 2008 1:30 pm (#2529 of 2617)
It was in Prisoner of Azkaban, I believe. But that's a good point, Wynnleaf. I'm sure Snape kind of loved sticking it to his old Transfiguration instructor as well
PeskyPixie - Jun 24, 2008 3:55 pm (#2530 of 2617)
LOL, I've been ill and am behind on this thread. Just thought I'd let you know that I am indeed extremely pleased at the direction this thread has taken of late. I can't wait to join in, but first I've got to finish reading everyone's posts. Great arguments, all!
Does Lily truly understand Snape? No, I don't think so. Nor does she really give credence to his suspicions and observations. Snape is dead on right about Lupin, but Lily won't even consider his suspicions, preferring to believe whatever the story around her House is about Lupin's "illness". She won't give credence to anything Snape has to say about the Prank, once again preferring to believe whatever she's heard in her House about James' heroism, even though Snape would clearly know a whole lot more about it than her.
These two kids certainly seem to have a knack for not hearing what the other is saying, LOL!
Quinn Crockett - Jun 21, 2008 9:25 am (#2502 of 2617)
she thought his use of the term - so pervasive that he finally used it on even his friend - was indicative of the bad directions that he was pursuing. - Wynnleaf
Yeah, that's what I think too. Very well put.
But what I don't agree with is that it was Lilly's responsibility to reign Snape in, to "convert" him (I think as Julia said). Nor should she be forcibly obligated to stand there and listen to (in her mind) his empty apology.
Snape blew it with her, plain and simple. He went too far. There are some lines that, once crossed, cannot ever be regained.
Julia H. - Jun 21, 2008 9:27 am (#2503 of 2617)
He knows what she wants of him- "give up your fascination with a group that wants to get rid of muggleborns like me." But he is not able to do so. (Mona)
So maybe he does not really know or understand it - not the second part anyway (to get rid of muggleborns like me). That is he does not know why Lily wants him to do it.
I think Dryleaves and Wynnleaf explain the communication barrier between Lily and Snape very well.
But what I don't agree with is that it was Lilly's responsibility to reign Snape in, to "convert" him (I think as Julia said). Nor should she be forcibly obligated to stand there and listen to (in her mind) his empty apology. (Quinn)
I did not at all mean it was Lily's responsibility or obligation (although people are in a way responsible for their friends if they can help them when these friends need help and she could have listened to the apology and still break up with him but this is not what I was saying). I was merely saying that it seems to be implied that Lily had actually wanted to make Snape understand what the problem was with his friends and his ways and that in this case it is very unfortunate that she stopped wanting that just at the moment when he would probably have been more easily influenced by her than ever before.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 21, 2008 9:58 am (#2504 of 2617)
She probably did want to make Severus understand. But how many times does Lily have to crack her head against a brick wall before it's appropriate for her to go and stop the bleeding?
Why do people assume that Snape "just didn't understand" what becoming a Death Eater truly meant? I mean, if your best friend, the girl you're in love with, can't convince you that you're on the wrong path...
That strikes me as true dedication, not blind misunderstanding.
Solitaire - Jun 21, 2008 10:09 am (#2505 of 2617)
She won't give credence to anything Snape has to say about the Prank, once again preferring to believe whatever she's heard in her House about James' heroism
If I remember correctly, Snape says that Dumbledore forbade him to mention anything about Remus--and what could he have made of the Prank without telling anyone that Remus was a werewolf? Isn't it possible that Lily never knew about the Prank while she was in school?
Solitaire
Dryleaves - Jun 21, 2008 10:13 am (#2506 of 2617)
Why do people assume that Snape "just didn't understand" what becoming a Death Eater truly meant? (Quinn)
Because he thinks he can have both Lily and the Death Eaters. He is not the one who actively and deliberately breaks their friendship. He never defends the DE ideology, just his friends, by comparing them to the Marauders.
Solitaire - Jun 21, 2008 10:51 am (#2507 of 2617)
Snape is many things, but stupid has never been one of them. I find it difficult to believe he did not think long and hard before joining the DEs. Is it possible that he is unable to give up his "fascination with a group that wants to get rid of muggleborns" because he has already taken the mark by this point?
Solitaire
Julia H. - Jun 21, 2008 5:12 pm (#2508 of 2617)
Isn't it possible that Lily never knew about the Prank while she was in school? (Solitaire)
Lily to Snape: "And you are being ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there-" (The Prince's Tale)
So, although Dumbledore forbade Snape to talk about Lupin's secret, that did not stop James (or Sirius, we do not know) from bragging about saving Snape. Snape does not see it that way but he cannot tell her his own version of the story because of his promise. He does try to tell her that James Potter was saving his neck and his friends' too but Lily is not interested in this and Snape does not mention that it was Sirius who tricked him into going to a dangerous place to start with. So, on the one hand, Lily knows James's (abridged) version of the prank and is not very much interested in whatever Snape may want to add and, on the other hand, Snape cannot tell her much, since he has promised to keep the secret.
Is it possible that he is unable to give up his "fascination with a group that wants to get rid of muggleborns" because he has already taken the mark by this point?
We can imagine that but there is no proof in canon. It would probably have been important enough for JKR to mention if she had wanted us to think that. If he joined the DE's when he had no other "friends" than other would-be DE's, he may not have thought long and hard. This is what I said about how young people who do not learn at home what being accepted and valued means will be more likely to do anything to find acceptance in any kind of a group they happen to find themselves in.
Snape is not at all stupid but I think at this point at least, his intelligence is the IQ type but not really the EQ type. He does not know how to make real friends (I do not count the "gang") or how to keep the only friend he has, he does not know how to be liked and popular (something James knows very well) and he may not understand the people around him very well. Realizing what Voldemort stands for is not an IQ problem, it takes something else. Later, Snape will change in this respect, since, as a spy, he will be able to manipulate the bad guys, which implies improvement (regarding EQ), but he will never be good at real relationships with people.
But how many times does Lily have to crack her head against a brick wall before it's appropriate for her to go and stop the bleeding? (Quinn)
Obviously, only as many times as she is willing to. But she would be more admirable if she could forgive and accept sincere apologies just once after being hurt by a long-time friend, who is in distress, and even then she could make her conditions clear. But, clearly, only if she is willing to.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 21, 2008 8:11 pm (#2509 of 2617)
But she would be more admirable if she could forgive and accept sincere apologies just once after being hurt by a long-time friend, who is in distress, and even then she could make her conditions clear. But, clearly, only if she is willing to. - Julia
I don't see anything remotely unworthy of admiration in Lily's treatment of Snape. On the contrary, she stuck by him for several years even though she knew exactly where he was headed. She tried to make him see her point of view, he refused to listen. She stuck by him in spite of his obvious affiliation and in spite of the fact that everyone else she knew actively discouraged her from keeping her relationship with Snape.
I would also argue that she was not hurt "just once" but repeatedly by the fact that, try as she might, she could never "convert him" ; could never get through to him what Voldemort and the Death Eater agenda truly were all about.
She had already been slowly losing him for years, yet she specifically chose to continue that relationship for his sake. She didn't need to, she had plenty of other friends, friends she probably had a lot more in common with than "we grew up in the same neighborhood". But she knew he didn't have many friends, that he was shy, an outcast, etc. For pete's sake, she is the only one in the entire crowd of people - including any of his Slytherin brethren who may have been present - who openly stood up for him against the bully James.
There is only so much a person can take. Lily had reached her limit.
As for Snape's "sincere apology" yes, it was "un moment difficile" for Snape. But what else is Lily supposed to think when the place where Severus immediately goes to is one where he lashes out at her in the most hateful, hurtful way short of physical violence he can? And after all she has done for him?
And why go there at all? Was he afraid that his Slytherin friends/gang - who, if they were around weren't doing a bloody thing to help him - might get the wrong idea? Had he already been accused of being a ... whatever epithet might be used to describe being in love with a Muggle-born? Who was he shouting that word for, exactly?
In other words, Snape made his choice in that moment; and he chose appearances over his "best friend". I think that is why it's his Worst Memory. Ironically, he spent the rest of his life keeping up those same appearances in Lily's name.
Solitaire - Jun 21, 2008 8:38 pm (#2510 of 2617)
I heard what happened the other night. Wow! Someone must have performed an obliviating charm on me! LOL
she would be more admirable if she could forgive and accept sincere apologies Perhaps she does not believe that he is sincere, given his unwillingness to give up the "DE connection."
mona amon - Jun 21, 2008 9:34 pm (#2511 of 2617)
For pete's sake, she is the only one in the entire crowd of people - including any of his Slytherin brethren who may have been present - who openly stood up for him against the bully James. (Quinn)
No matter how many times I read it or how many opposing opinions I hear, I just can't change my first impression of that scene. I don't find anything to admire in Lily's actions, and much to find fault with. If she was sincerely concerned about her friend, how long would it have taked her to rescue him by pointing her wand at him and saying 'Finite Incantatem'? Instead she has to have this dramatic confrontation with James, which seems very theatrical to me. There is a total absense of genuine indignation on her part. I certainly don't blame Snape for not being too pleased with her 'Noble Lily Bravely Standing Up for the Underdog' act.
As for his Slytherin friends, there is no indication that they were present, or I'm sure they would have stood up for him. According to Snape the Marauders used to pick on him when he was alone, and I see no reason to doubt what he says.
Perhaps she does not believe that he is sincere, given his unwillingness to give up the "DE connection." (Solitaire)
I think she believes he is sincerely sorry for hurting her, but she has given up all hope that she will be able to steer him away from his chosen path.
(Edited)
Anna L. Black - Jun 22, 2008 7:57 am (#2512 of 2617)
Mona, I agree about Lily. That isn't the behaviour I'd expect from one's friend. I guess that JKR had to make it appear as though Lily and Snape didn't have anything to do with each other, so as not to spoil DH, but when I'm reading this scene now, in retrospect, neither of them acts friendly to each other. Snape not only calls her mudblood, it's "Filthy little Mudblood", which is really a hate-filled expression(or so it sounds to me, at least).
Solitaire - Jun 22, 2008 8:40 am (#2513 of 2617)
Is it possible that Lily didn't know how to stop that jinx? Harry was a fifth year, and he couldn't (or didn't) stop the Tarantallegra jinx performed on Neville in the DoM. Lupin had to do that. I realize it might have been more powerful, as it was performed by a DE ... but he didn't try. Was he just too scared or flustered, or did he not know how to stop it? Is it possible that Jame's curse, like Snape's Sectumsempra, had a special counter-curse?
Speaking of Sectumsempra ... I wondered if that was the curse used on Hermione in the DoM. Dolohov used the same slashing motion on Harry that he'd used on Hermione, and Harry, even though he'd used the Shield Charm, "felt something streak across his face like a blunt knife." The curse, whatever it was, seemed to have caused quite a bit of damage to Hermione. Do you suppose other DEs might have picked it up from Snape? Lupin said in DH that "Sectumsempra was always a speciality of Snape's," so it sounds like he used it in front of classmates when he was in school. Perhaps he used it with the DEs when they would go out on their little ... jobs.
Solitaire
Julia H. - Jun 22, 2008 10:01 am (#2514 of 2617)
But what else is Lily supposed to think when the place where Severus immediately goes to is one where he lashes out at her in the most hateful, hurtful way short of physical violence he can? And after all she has done for him? (Quinn)
I agree with Mona that in the Worst Memory Scene Lily pays much more attention to James than to Snape, whom she is saving. (She does not even talk to her friend until he offends him.) As for keeping up the friendship with Snape for years, I don’t think Lily kept it up only for Snape’s sake for all those years, at least nothing implies that. Yes, Lily had other friends but she may not have got as much admiration from all of them, as she (according to the first few memory scenes in The Prince’s Tale) got from Snape. The fact that both of them are known as exceptionally good potions-makers indicates they had interests in common and I don’t think Lily knew all these years exactly where he was headed.
Who was he shouting that word for, exactly?
In other words, Snape made his choice in that moment; and he chose appearances over his "best friend".
No, Snape did not shout that word to keep up appearances. Where is it mentioned that Snape tried to keep their friendship a secret from anyone? Harry understood that Snape shouted the word in his rage and his humiliation. It was not because he wanted to deceive anyone, no. He meant to say something that hurt and, as others have pointed out, the swear word typical of his house and one he himself used as well came to his tongue but for him at that moment it had much more to do with James Potter trying to arrange a date with Lily while crushing Snape’s dignity in front of all those people (including her) than with Lily’s birth or his Slytherin friends. Why did he shout that word? He was reacting to everything that was happening to him and around him and, more specifically, to the most painful part of it: Lily’s presence, Lily seeing it all and Lily flirting with James. The I don’t need help part may mean “I don’t want to be helped at the cost of this”.
You see, between telling the truth and lying, there is the situation where one does not say exactly what (s)he feels or thinks but expresses it with words that on the surface (regarding dictionary meaning) mean something different than what they mean in the given situation. At a certain level, we do this every day. A question like “Shall we drink coffee?” may in a certain (but not every) situation mean “Please, make some coffee”. In a state of extreme stress, fury, despair (etc.) certain words have situational meanings very different from their dictionary meanings. Even actions can have “situational meanings”: a suicide attempt does not always mean the person wants to die. It may simply mean the person needs attention.
Many posts ago, Solitaire had a very good question: Have you ever deliberately said something hurtful to someone you love, out of your own hurt or anger? If so, how do you feel? Guilty and ashamed, most likely ... especially if the thing you have said is not really how you feel.
Well, I have. Only once. I said something I did not mean, something I would not have thought myself capable of saying at all and to a person very close to me. We made up in minutes and many years have passed and it is still a very bad memory but my first reaction to myself was astonishment and disbelief at my own action. Yes, things like that happen. Probably, there are people who never do that. They are lucky. Others do and they are still lucky if they are understood and forgiven. In other cases, it may destroy a relationship between two people. This is what happens to Snape and Lily. But the word he said was not for any Slytherins. It expressed his feelings though not by the literal meaning of the word and in a situation where his feelings were too complex and too private and maybe too confusing for him to shout what he really felt.
What is his reaction to his own word? Let’s see what happens: He shouts those terrible words at her. She answers. James is indignant, demands that Snape apologize. Lily refuses that, tells him off for the last time and leaves. Next, James is talking to Sirius. Sirius answers. Then James, in his anger, curses Snape again and continues torturing him. All the time while these various people are talking, Snape is silent and, apparently, he is not doing anything at all. It is strange, because during all this talk, he could run away (and with good reason) or could find his wand, perhaps even fight back, though leaving would probably be the most sensible action. Yet he stays without doing or saying anything at all. He does not even prepare for the possibility of being attacked again, not even when Lily has already left. Why? In OOTP JKR does not want to show us why this is Snape’s worst memory but I think his passivity in those minutes while he is still disarmed in front of his enemies but could do something (we have seen that his reactions can be quick) is a sign that he is shocked by his own words, by what he has just done. What he said, bad as it was, did not have the purpose of keeping up appearances or choosing anybody. It was an expression of rage and jealousy and pain at being humiliated and it was like a cry: uncontrolled and desperate.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 22, 2008 11:25 am (#2515 of 2617)
Wow! Pesky Pixie should be pleased
she has to have this dramatic confrontation with James, which seems very theatrical to me. There is a total absense of genuine indignation on her part. - Mona Amon
Ha! That's true. Well, even so, her "best friend" could have just said, "Stay out of it, Lily!" Instead his immediate reaction is to fire off "the M word" at her. And not even just "the M word" but, as someone else pointed out the even more hateful "filthy little mudblood!" with an exclamation point.
I hadn't considered that she could simply have "finito'd" the spell James was using. Maybe Lily didn't either? In any case, good point on that.
Even so, Lily is the only one who came forward in Sev's defense, however perfunctory it may have ultimately been.
I don’t think Lily kept it up only for Snape’s sake for all those years, at least nothing implies that.
Wow, really? Nothing? Because she pretty much tells him this flat out. ("I can't pretend any more".)
Both of them being "good at potions" is hardly an indication of shared interests beyond the school curriculum - or even that particular subject.
In other cases, [saying something hateful] may destroy a relationship between two people. Which is what happened here. Well, combined with everything else.
It was an expression of rage and jealousy and pain at being humiliated and it was like a cry: uncontrolled and desperate.
Whether you point a gun at someone intentionally, or it accidentally "goes off" and hits them, in the end they are still dead. Severus shouldn't have been playing with guns.
It's interesting how people seem so quick to excuse Snape for everything ("But he didn't know how bad Voldemort was... " "But he was being attacked... " "But he didn't mean it..." "But he was socially awkward..." "But he didn't have any friends..." "But he came from an abusive home..." "But he was poor...") and put all the blame on Lily.
I mean, I like the Snape character too, but he's no Oliver Twist. He's not some victim of circumstance. He made certain choices that did not always have the consequences he hoped they would.
Julia H. - Jun 22, 2008 1:19 pm (#2516 of 2617)
Edited Jun 22, 2008 2:08 pm
Well, even so, her "best friend" could have just said, "Stay out of it, Lily!" (Quinn)
Had he been cool-headed, yes. But he was not. It is not a virtue and nobody has ever said he did the right thing when he called her a Mudblood. But it was not as if she had been attacked and he had wanted to hurt her from a position of any power. That his reaction is so strong (rather than what you suggest) shows how much he is affected emotionally.
Wow, really? Nothing? Because she pretty much tells him this flat out. ("I can't pretend any more".)
Well, does she say why she pretended? Does she say she excused him only for his sake? Why anyway? If his friendship never meant anything to her, if she knew from the first moment on where he was heading (as you implied), why would she keep up the friendship for his sake only and for years? It does not make sense to me.
Both of them being "good at potions" is hardly an indication of shared interests beyond the school curriculum - or even that particular subject.
Maybe not in real life. But since this is mentioned in a novel, I don't think it is an accident (plotwise) that they were very good at the same subject. If JKR put it there, it probably has some purpose.
Whether you point a gun at someone intentionally, or it accidentally "goes off" and hits them, in the end they are still dead. Severus shouldn't have been playing with guns.
I find this simile a bit strong.
It's interesting how people seem so quick to excuse Snape for everything ... and put all the blame on Lily.
It is interesting how other people do not want to see the less obvious side of the story. (Sorry. Pesky must be having fun. )
I do not put "all the blame" on Lily. But when Snape is blamed for not listening to her, I cannot help noticing that she was not as absolutely supporting and perfect as she is often made out to be. After all, she was only another teenager, who may not have been able to do more. But then at least Snape's part of the blame should not be increased by the notion that he had this wonderful best friend who always knew what he should have done. The communication between them was not that straightforward. And I find some contradiction in the ideas that, on the one hand, Lily only "pretended" being his friend for the sake of Snape, who did not deserve it, and, on the other hand, that she was or should have been some kind of "beacon" for him. If someone just pretends friendship but is tired of her "friend" in reality, she won't be able to do much for this friend, who will (consciously or not) always feel that he is not getting back the same kind of love and respect as what he is giving. If Lily was only "pretending" friendship all these years, as you say, (if this is what we are meant to think), then all her efforts to save Snape were bound to fail, as Snape was bound to "retaliate" sooner or later as a result of feeling this (long-term) lack of sincerity and as she was bound to turn her back on him in the first really convenient moment no matter how much at that moment he needed a friend. (Truly, your idea of Lily keeping up the relationship only for Snape's sake for years opens new perspectives of interpretation.)
Snape cannot be excused for everything. I don't know if you have noticed that I have repeated several times it was wrong he used that word, it was wrong that he joined the DE's. However, JKR provides such a background to his bad choices that it is ultimately (from a psychological point of view) understandable why he made those bad choices and why he made those mistakes. The road that leads to these bad choices is very well shown. There are reasons. Reasons are not the same as excuses but they are still important. Yes, in many ways, Snape is a victim. From other viewpoints, he did make those bad, tragic choices. But the fact that he is able to change later, when he is much further down the wrong road than in his school-years, the fact that he is changed by love in the first place and by receiving a helping hand indicates (to me at least) that his original moral downfall might not have been inevitable. Yes, he could have made better choices, I agree with that. But maybe love and help (more than what he actually got) could have made him avoid these bad choices, just as these two things made him change later, when it was probably more difficult to change. Yes, it would have been much better if he had avoided these bad choices alone. However, some people just need help and acceptance and Snape, with all his flaws, seems to be one of these people and there was nobody to give him these things. Not even Lily.
Dryleaves - Jun 22, 2008 1:32 pm (#2517 of 2617)
In retrospective we know that it is a really bad thing to join the Death Eaters, but how clear was it then? From the conversations we see between Lily and Snape, I think what Lily says about the evil of Snape's Slytherin friends is very vague. We know that there is a difference between the Death Eaters and the Marauders, because the Marauders stop at being mere bullies, when the Death Eaters go on and do much worse things, they end up as torturers and murderers, but how clear was that difference then? Snape certainly does not see the difference. Lily may have a clue, but how strong is it and how well can she clarify it to Snape? Maybe she cannot fully clarify it to herself and maybe there is no clear evidence to provide at this point. The difference that can be seen may just not be there by this time. We cannot blame Lily for not being able to convey it. Still, from this point of view it may be less evident why Snape has to choose between his Slytherin friends and Lily, while she does not have to choose between him and the Gryffindors. The problem may not be how evil the "evil guys" seem, but how the "good guys" seem to lack goodness.
Later, so many great words are said. "James always hated the dark arts" - or did he just use to say that to excuse his bullying? Snape chooses his way and Lily hers - but to me it seems as if it is his lack of choice that results in a choice, as Lily chooses to end the friendship because of it. Did he fully understand the choice? (And by asking this I do not mean that Lily should be blamed for her choice, I can understand her perfectly).
Later there is a war full of cruelty and with disastrous consequences, but at this time it seems to me as if the conflict is most of all about two teenage boys wanting the same girl, and possibly also the old Slytherin against Gryffindor thing. One of the boys has all the traditional attributes of the successful one, the other conspicuously lacks those attributes and has his mind completely set on this lack and how to compensate it. I cannot help thinking that to Snape the Death Eaters are most of all a Slytherin alternative to the Marauders, individuals making up their own moral standards to follow, a group to be behind you whatever you do.
I do not consider wanting to join either group for these reasons very sympathetic. But it is a slightly different reason to join than a strictly intellectual consideration of the group's ideology and a true devotion to it, and when analysing characters of a fictional work I think that difference is of importance, if not in a real world courtroom. I do not say Snape had no clue whatsoever what the Death Eaters were about, but as he seems to think they are compatible with being friends with Lily I think he has missed at least some of the nuances.
Solitaire - Jun 22, 2008 2:34 pm (#2518 of 2617)
I don’t think Lily kept it up only for Snape’s sake for all those years, at least nothing implies that.
Wow, really? Nothing? Because she pretty much tells him this flat out. ("I can't pretend any more".)
Couldn't "I can't pretend anymore" simply mean "I can't pretend anymore that your association with the Death Eaters doesn't matter"?
Yes, it would have been much better if he had avoided these bad choices alone. However, some people just need help and acceptance and Snape, with all his flaws, seems to be one of these people and there was nobody to give him these things. Not even Lily.
It does seem as if Lily did give Snape acceptance for many years ... but he forfeited it when he persisted in following the DEs. It does not sound as if this is the only conversation they have had about this issue. It has been suggested, if I understand correctly, that Lily just kind of gave up on Snape, or maybe her friendship wasn't genuine. However, if he truly loved and valued Lily, we might wonder why he didn't look more closely at her reasons for hating the Dark Arts.
I can't think that Dumbledore was completely ignorant that some of his students--mainly (although obviously not only) those associated with Slytherin House--were becoming more and more deeply involved in Voldemort's activities. After all, Dumbledore seems to have a pretty good idea of what is happening around Hogwarts ... unless he was so busy with Order business that he was an absentee Headmaster (and I can certainly relate to how things can fall apart when that happens). I also wonder why Slughorn wasn't more involved in helping his students make good choices. He was, after all, Slytherin's Head of House at that time. Then again, is it possible that one or more of the teachers at Hogwarts did attempt to reason with Snape and his friends regarding Voldemort and they were ignored? Just a thought ...
Solitaire
Julia H. - Jun 22, 2008 3:29 pm (#2519 of 2617)
Edited Jun 22, 2008 4:18 pm
However, if he truly loved and valued Lily, we might wonder why he didn't look more closely at her reasons for hating the Dark Arts. (Solitaire)
Well, yes, we might... It seems he was much more interested in her opinion about James than in her opinion about the Dark Arts.
I agree that the teachers, precisely Dumbledore and Slughorn, had some responsibility, because not only Snape became a DE but also a whole gang graduated from the school, all becoming DE's, then also Pettigrew, a few years before them Malfoy at least, we also know about Regulus, and a generation later, at least Draco, Crabbe and Goyle (and probably some other kids) became LV's followers. The teachers knew how these Slytherin kids were selected and put into the same house, so they could have had a special programme or at least some extra attention for them to prevent the worst at least. DD's fight against LV is not a very good excuse, since he may have thought it important not to supply LV with well-trained future followers. I don't think any of them attempted to reason with Snape, because there is no indication at all that they did. It seems Snape as a kid never got any serious attention or positive interest from any adults. It is sad because we know Snape looked like "a plant kept in the dark" - a teacher could notice a kid like that is missing something. BTW Slughorn exclaims in HBP, Snape! ... I thought I knew him!, implying he did not have a bad opinion about him. Hm...
Quinn Crockett - Jun 22, 2008 5:58 pm (#2520 of 2617)
If his friendship never meant anything to her, if she knew from the first moment on where he was heading (as you implied)
Hm. That's not what I said, though. What I actually said was that she could have let the friendship die a natural death since they both had other friends, other activities, other budding interests. But she maintained the friendship anyway, in spite of her clear objections, in spite of the challenges in keeping the friendship going.
On "I can't pretend any more". I think this means several things at once.
"I can't pretend that your association with the Death Eaters doesn't matter" (thanks, Solitaire)
"I can't pretend that we're still the children we once were, innocently exploring our new-found abilities. We know who we are and what we're about and we have a certain responsibility with this power."
"I can't pretend that we still have anything in common."
"I can't pretend that I'll love you and be your friend no matter what."
"I can't pretend that what you're doing with your Death Eater friends is 'just a phase' and that you'll snap out of it some day."
"I can't pretend that it doesn't break my heart to see you go down that road, the one where I cannot follow".
"I can't pretend that you haven't hurt me very deeply and in the most hateful way possible."
Slughorn seems to be kind of caught up in his own "coat tail riding" so it doesn't surprise me that he didn't have much of an influence on the budding Death Eaters of Snape's generation. Dumbledore is a bit of another matter. He is all for "choices" but, as any parent or educator knows, there are times when those "choices" should be limited (i.e "You can have an apple or a banana, but you can not have a cookie".)
(Is that simile better, Julia )
Dryleaves - Jun 23, 2008 1:39 am (#2521 of 2617)
However, if he truly loved and valued Lily, we might wonder why he didn't look more closely at her reasons for hating the Dark Arts. (Solitaire)
Well, yes, we might... It seems he was much more interested in her opinion about James than in her opinion about the Dark Arts. (Julia)
Yes, Snape is sadly James-centered. Had he been more Lily-centered he might have listened better. And if he had been able to tell her how he felt, she would maybe have understood his point of view better and been able to explain why she did not approve of the dark arts and that this was important to her. Now all that Snape seems to think of is that Lily must not choose James Potter, and he does not see himself as bad and James as good. James seems powerful rather than good and his power seems not to be that much lighter than any dark arts.
Then again, is it possible that one or more of the teachers at Hogwarts did attempt to reason with Snape and his friends regarding Voldemort and they were ignored? (Solitaire)
Dumbledore is a bit of another matter. He is all for "choices" but, as any parent or educator knows, there are times when those "choices" should be limited (Quinn)
DD's fight against LV is not a very good excuse, since he may have thought it important not to supply LV with well-trained future followers. (Julia)
The adults at Hogwarts seem to be rather absent. It seems as if Lily is very much alone in her attempts to convert Severus. Even when Harry is at school the adults seem to leave the students to themselves quite a lot. DD's "choices" policy sometimes seem pretty much as "laissez-faire" to me and the chats he has with Harry are, as I understand it, an exception to the rule. It would seem an important thing to try to stop the recruiting of new followers of Voldemort. If choice is important it is cynical to let an eleven-year-old choose what house to be in, what information do they have beforehand and is a child at that age ready to process such information correctly? And then you offer no guidance. And why appoint a man you want to use as spy in the future Head of Slytherin House? He may be able to get information, yes, but he also has to keep up appearances and pretend to not divert too much from DE views.
Julia H. - Jun 23, 2008 3:34 am (#2522 of 2617)
Yes, Quinn, I like this simile (or metaphor actually).
I also agree with these interpretations of "I can't pretend any more". I guess there was a reason why Lily "pretended" or "made excuses" for Snape, so his friendship must have been important to her for a while - after all Snape was not simply "a kid from the same neighbourhood" but also Lily's first ever connection to the wizarding world and, as a result, to a better understanding of herself. But the friendship may have died before the worst memory scene and what remained was this "pretence". Snape may even have felt that he was losing her and perhaps he reacted to this feeling but in the wrong way: with jealousy (though not totally without reason) and by trying to cling to "other friends" as well. (Just a thought...)
Dryleaves, I absolutely agree with your analysis of DD's "laissez-faire" approach to choices and to Slytherin House. If never before, then at least in a dangerous political situation, it was the duty of a school and especially of DD (being both a headmaster and the leader of the fight against Voldemort and also this super-intelligent man with the ability to understand where things were heading) to attempt to prevent young people educated in his school from making such bad choices.
And why appoint a man you want to use as spy in the future Head of Slytherin House? (Dryleaves)
This is a very good question. If DD had not wanted to use Snape as a spy, the idea that someone who had made a bad choice and found out at his cost how bad it really was could convincingly guide "at risk" students through a maze of conflicting ideologies would make sense - especially that this teacher was much younger than most/all other teachers, so in this sense "closer" to those who needed guidance. (Even in this case, Snape's damaged psyche and the fact that he himself needed guidance would have made this job quite a challenge for him.) However, since Snape had to be ambiguous all the time, he had no chance to give any kind of authentic guidance to anyone. DD may have appointed him as Head of Slytherin House because he was the only Slytherin teacher at the moment - but that would be a case of rules above reason. It is also possible that DD's purpose was to enable Snape to keep an eye on DE kids - but the chance of moral guidance was sacrificed anyway.
Solitaire - Jun 23, 2008 9:33 am (#2523 of 2617)
DD may have appointed him as Head of Slytherin House because he was the only Slytherin teacher at the moment - but that would be a case of rules above reason.
I think it makes sense for Snape to be Slytherin Head of House, because it puts him in the catbird seat as far as hearing any bits of DE gossip that Draco (who loves to sound important) may drop ... and Lucius does seem to be one of the biggest DEs on the loose who has his finger in the MoM pie. Does anyone know how long Snape has been Head of House? If it was a relatively recent appointment, could it have been in anticipation of Harry's re-entry into the magical world? Dumbledore must have known (considering he removed the Sorcerer's Stone from Gringott's) that things would start to heat up again, and he would also have been aware that Lucius's son would be coming to Hogwarts the same year Harry was. This would just be another opportunity to exploit Snape's connection to Voldemort and the DEs, though Draco.
BTW, has anyone mentioned that Snape always calls Draco by his first name, yet he calls nearly everyone else by their last names? Just an observation ...
Solitaire
Dryleaves - Jun 23, 2008 10:09 am (#2524 of 2617)
I think it makes sense for Snape to be Slytherin Head of House, because it puts him in the catbird seat as far as hearing any bits of DE gossip that Draco (who loves to sound important) may drop ... (Solitaire)
From this point of view it is understandable, but if you think of it from the perspective of guidance of the students it is not such a good idea, I think, as Snape has to act as if he is a DE that pretends not to be a DE, and is not really able to truly influence his students in the right way (apart from the fact that he, as Julia writes, is in need of some guidance himself...). Are the Slytherin students "sacrificed" for the greater good, or could DD get sufficient information on Voldemort in another way and have a Head of House that could lead the students on to the right path?
I do not know for how long Snape had been Head of House. I think it must have been before Harry started at Hogwarts, because nobody mentions that he is new as Head of House in PS/SS, I think, but it is said about him that he is known to favour students from his own House. But I am not sure it would be such a good idea to appoint him Head of House as soon as he started to teach, as he was inexperienced, very young and remembered as a fellow student by the older students (but that could be an explanation for his favouritism, of course).
BTW, has anyone mentioned that Snape always calls Draco by his first name, yet he calls nearly everyone else by their last names? Just an observation ... (Solitaire)
I have noticed this (but I do not know if I ever mentioned it). It is one of the things that makes me wonder about the relationship between Snape and the Malfoys, how close they are, if they really like each other, etc.
Julia H. - Jun 23, 2008 10:11 am (#2525 of 2617)
I don't think we know when Snape became Slytherin Head of House. In PS, he is introduced as Slytherin Head of House and that is all. Actually even before Harry's arrival, even in the early years after LV's downfall, watching DE kids may have been useful.
Yes, he calls Draco by his first name, though I think in the earlier books perhaps he calls him 'Malfoy' - I don't know how consistent he is. It could be interesting to check whether he starts calling him by his first name only after Voldemort's return or he calls him Draco from the beginning... In the later books, he probably always calls him Draco. Of course, he may have already known him before Draco started school. In HBP and DH, it seems he is genuinely interested in what happens to Draco, although again it is hard to tell if we cannot see into him. (Somewhere outside this forum I read speculations that Snape called Draco by his first name and then in HBP he called Tonks 'Nymphadora', and whether this indicates that Tonks had been in his house - but then he called Crabbe by his last name in OOTP, in spite of Crabbe being a Slytherin.)
Quinn Crockett - Jun 23, 2008 10:11 am (#2526 of 2617)
Edited Jun 23, 2008 10:55 am
Oh yeah. Metaphor. Oops...
Snape may even have felt that he was losing her and perhaps he reacted to this feeling but in the wrong way. - Julia
Yes, I think so too. I think they must have both felt it for some time, actually, and that we get a sense of that from the snippet of their conversation we're shown where Severus needs that assurance that they're "still 'best' friends". Also there is something in the way the two are so quick to tacitly accuse each other of ruining that friendship with the "Your friends are terrible." "No yours are!" argument.
Of course, the both mean different things by these accusations. Snape means, "Can't you see that I'm in love with you and that I can't stand to see you getting close to my arch-rival??"; whereas Lily just means pretty much what she says.
I think that separation might have been even harder on Lily, in some ways, than it was for Snape, in part precisely because Snape was Lily's first ever connection to the wizarding world and, as a result, to a better understanding of herself. (Beautifully stated, Julia). I'm certainly not denying that he was devastated by losing that relationship, because he absolutely was. But for her, she seems to have known it was a long time coming ("I can't pretend any more.") and so every interaction between them must have had a certain sting to it, knowing this might be the last time they would speak; the things left unsaid, did she do enough to try to turn him from the road to the Death Eaters, etc.
What I'm trying to say here is that, if it hadn't been for this sort of build-up of ... underlying anguish about him, I think she probably would have forgiven Severus for the Worst Memory; that it might actually have been just the sort of opening he could have run through to tell her how he really felt. But instead it became the final nail in the coffin. (Boy, I hope I make sense on this, even if none of you agree).
I actually think it's strange that Dumbledore would appoint someone so young to be Head of House, regardless of his political affiliations. How could he expect someone barely out of school himself to have any control over his students? I also think that, as Head of House, it really fell to Slughorn to re-direct any wayward Slytherins. Isn't that kind of his job? I mean, the headmaster must count on these other Heads for that very reason.
ETA: Oh, I guess I assumed that Snape was appointed as Head when he was hired. It's true that we don't actually know when he was given that position, though.
Julia H. - Jun 23, 2008 10:51 am (#2527 of 2617)
Edited Jun 23, 2008 11:41 am
Boy, I hope I make sense on this, even if none of you agree (Quinn)
I think what you say makes a lot of sense and it all sounds quite probable to me.
EDIT: I skimmed through the Snape-quotes in half-bloodprince.org and I found that before OOTP, Snape never says 'Draco', only 'Malfoy'. In OOTP and after OOTP, he always says 'Draco'. (In GOF, he does not say either.)
wynnleaf - Jun 23, 2008 11:50 am (#2528 of 2617)
As far as how long Snape was Head of Slytherin, perhaps there's a hint in what appears to be a long-standing rivalry between McGonagall and Snape for the House Cup (or is it the Quidditch cup?). Anyway, McGonagall makes the comment that implies Snape has been picking on her for years about Slytherin winning over Gryffindor.
Sorry, but I can't recall where this is. I'll try to look it up.
Edit. I'm not finding it, since I don't know where to look, but I'm pretty sure I read it very recently. McGonagall mentioned it herself, and said something about Snape saying to her recently that Slytherin had won the cup for the past 7 years (or something like that), and it sounds as though to an extent this is an ongoing rivalry the two professors have had for years.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 23, 2008 1:30 pm (#2529 of 2617)
It was in Prisoner of Azkaban, I believe. But that's a good point, Wynnleaf. I'm sure Snape kind of loved sticking it to his old Transfiguration instructor as well
PeskyPixie - Jun 24, 2008 3:55 pm (#2530 of 2617)
LOL, I've been ill and am behind on this thread. Just thought I'd let you know that I am indeed extremely pleased at the direction this thread has taken of late. I can't wait to join in, but first I've got to finish reading everyone's posts. Great arguments, all!
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Julia H. - Jun 25, 2008 6:39 am (#2531 of 2617)
LOL, Pesky, I hope you are well now! To tell he truth I thought you were lurking and smirking in the background while we were doing our best to entertain you.
Talking about first names and last names: Although Snape is sometimes called "Severus" (even "Sev") by various characters, the narrator consistently calls him "Snape", which is not surprising, given that the narrator's viewpoint is Harry's and Harry will usually refer to his teachers by their last names. This is the same with Lupin, Dumbledore, McGonagall, etc. Only adults like Sirius are called by their first names by the narrator - the same as Harry calls them. (Students are similarly treated by the narrator: Hermione, Ron, Neville but Malfoy, etc.) However, there are a few scenes in which Harry is not present: I can think of two right now, the first chapter in PS and the Spinner's End chapter in HBP. In these chapters some characters are referred to by names different from those Harry would use. In the first chapter of PS, Uncle Vernon is "Mr Dursley", Aunt Petunia is "Mrs Dursley" (quite understandably). In Spinner's End, Mrs Malfoy is referred to as "Narcissa" by the narrator, even though this is probably not what Harry would call her. Snape, however, remains "Snape" here as well. In the various memory scenes again, the child Snape is referred to as "Snape" (seen through Harry's eyes). In this context, I find it striking that once in the second (brief) appearance of the Worst Memory Scene (The Prince's Tale), Snape is suddenly referred to as "Severus" by the narrator, who is narrating the scene from Harry's point of view:
But Harry kept his distance this time, because he knew what happened after James had hoisted Severus into the air and taunted him; he knew what had been done and said, and it gave him no pleasure to hear it again...
I did not check the whole book but I think it is very probable that this is the only occasion in the seven books where Snape is called "Severus" by Harry/the narrator. I suspect it must have some significance (just as Snape switching from "Malfoy" to "Draco" in OOTP should have some significance)... Perhaps it underlines that this is a moment when Harry (beginning to understand the real significance of Snape's Worst Memory) feels Snape, who is being taunted and humiliated, unexpectedly close to himself. Any opinions?
mona amon - Jun 25, 2008 9:16 am (#2532 of 2617)
I think it is very probable that this is the only occasion in the seven books where Snape is called "Severus" by Harry/the narrator.
Julia I noticed this too, but cannot make up my mind whether it was an error on the part of the author or whether we are supposed to attach any significance to it. But I like to think that it's an indication of Harry's changing feelings for Severus as he views his memories.
It's the same with Severus calling Lily 'Lily Potter' in the 'Harry has a bit of Voldemort's soul in him' memory. Did JKR intend Severus to call her that, or was it a mistake? If it was intentional, what could be the significance of Severus attaching the hated surname to Lily? I'm pretty sure it does not mean that at last he was reconciled to the fact that Lily had married James. Maybe in that emotional moment, he saw her, finally, as Harry Potter's mother?
I really wanted to see Severus calling Harry by his first name, but alas! he never reached that point. The most he can manage when he is feeling a bit sentimental is to refer to Harry as 'the boy'.
Dryleaves - Jun 25, 2008 9:32 am (#2533 of 2617)
Edited Jun 25, 2008 10:13 am
I think it is very probable that this is the only occasion in the seven books where Snape is called "Severus" by Harry/the narrator. (Julia)
Julia I noticed this too, but cannot make up my mind whether it was an error on the part of the author or whether we are supposed to attach any significance to it. (Mona)
I also thought it might be a mistake by the author and possibly the editor, but then of course it could be of significance. Notably in that case is that it is only once in this scene he is called "Severus", then it is Snape again, even when he is still upside down. Maybe the " James had hoisted Severus " is of significance, James vs. Severus? I don't know.
ETA: Steve, I agree completely!
Steve Newton - Jun 25, 2008 9:42 am (#2534 of 2617)
Part of the fun is assuming that there are no mistakes.
wynnleaf - Jun 25, 2008 5:41 pm (#2535 of 2617)
I don't think it was a mistake, primarily because it's not just any random point where Snape's name is mentioned, only instead of "Snape", "Severus" is used. Instead it occurs in a very crucial scene. If the "Severus" was a mistake, then isn't it highly circumstantial that it occurred here, rather that any of the many lesser scenes where Snape is mentioned?
Dryleaves - Jun 26, 2008 1:10 am (#2536 of 2617)
Maybe the use of "Severus" in this very location in this very scene is about not making James closer to Harry than Snape is. Harry otherwise refers to his father as "James" and to Snape as "Snape" (as we know). I think Harry identifies with Snape in this scene and is appalled by what his father is doing, and as Julia suggests, the real significance of this memory may dawn on him. Therefore, when James hoists Snape into the air, it is important that we understand that it is not James the father who hoists Snape the teacher into the air (as a punishment for his future crimes against his son, for example), but James the bully that hoists Severus, the in this case innocent Hogwarts student, into the air. Snape is closer to Harry and James maybe further from him than usual. It is important that they are judged from the situation and not from what relationship Harry generally has to each of them.
Julia H. - Jun 26, 2008 1:55 am (#2537 of 2617)
LOL, Steve, this is exactly how I feel but you said it so well!
Interesting comments, all. Yes, the location of this name in the book is an important one. Maybe it is as Dryleaves says:
Therefore, when James hoists Snape into the air, it is important that we understand that it is not James the father who hoists Snape the teacher into the air (as a punishment for his future crimes against his son, for example), but James the bully that hoists Severus, the in this case innocent Hogwarts student, into the air. Snape is closer to Harry and James maybe further from him than usual. It is important that they are judged from the situation and not from what relationship Harry generally has to each of them.
Then again, maybe Harry at that moment can see these boys for what they are: teenagers younger than him (at the moment of watching) both in terms of actual age and in terms of experience/maturity. It is true, after that JKR switches back to "Snape", but perhaps it would be too much if from that moment on Harry consistently regarded Snape as "Severus": he is yet to see the hilltop scene and he still does not know what really happened the night when DD died.
If it was intentional, what could be the significance of Severus attaching the hated surname to Lily? I'm pretty sure it does not mean that at last he was reconciled to the fact that Lily had married James. (Mona)
I have been thinking about it too. I agree that it is not likely to indicate any kind of "reconciliation" with Lily's marriage but I like to think that it does have some significance (in accordance with what Steve says ). In the hilltop scene, he says "Lily Evans", in this memory, he says "Lily Potter". He never mentions Lily's full name any other time. More precisely, he says "Lily Potter's son", so perhaps it indicates the complexity of what Harry means to him, rather than Lily.
The most he can manage when he is feeling a bit sentimental is to refer to Harry as 'the boy'.
"Feeling a bit sentimental": LOL! Actually "the boy" may indicate how central a discussion topic Harry is between these two men.
PeskyPixie - Jun 29, 2008 8:55 pm (#2538 of 2617)
LOL at Sentimental Severus!
We have discussed (on several threads) about the impact of love on the person one grows up to become. Many have argued that although Harry is raised by two monsters he had one year of being adored by his 'good', loving parents and this is one of the reasons why he is able to love regardless of the terrible things which happen in his young life. The opposite argument is given for Voldy and, to a degree, Snape.
Actually, Snape is often said to be the product of a loveless marriage. Still, I wonder how early Snape's neglect at the hands of his parents began. We know that his parents(s) (or some relative) cared enough about his arrival to arrange for a birth notice in The Daily Prophet. Did he then, perhaps, experience some happiness and love from his parents in the earliest period of his life?
Dryleaves - Jun 30, 2008 9:57 am (#2539 of 2617)
The way I imagine it Snape's parents at some point of time loved each other and I think they loved their son. They probably got problems in their marriage rather early on, became destructive and full of their own misery and neglected their child. Probably neither of them were capable of expressing their love for him in any good way. I think it was a destructive relationship, but not necessarily completely loveless, at least not from the beginning.
Soul Search - Jun 30, 2008 1:44 pm (#2540 of 2617)
There seems to be a move to blame Snape's turning out bad, that is his interest in the Dark Arts and becoming a Death Eater, on a poor home life. I don't see that.
We only have a couple of citations for Snape's home life, and that is that his parents argued. One mention by Lily when they were ten or so and another from Snape's occulmency lesson memory. Merlin's pants, they could have been arguing about how bad Snape was becoming! These scenes must be the worst, or canon would have shown us others for the true picture. So, no one beat him or locked him in a closet and such. Harry had a much worse childhood and he turned out all right.
Snape was just a bad kid determined to fall in with the worst crowd in the wizarding world.
If anything, the press about Voldemort would have been the most influence on young Snape. In the same timeframe, maybe a little later, Regulus had a press collection about Voldemort. Regulus admired him, or his stated goals, so could have Snape.
Snape was just a bad kid.
Accio Sirius - Jun 30, 2008 2:03 pm (#2541 of 2617)
My daughter, who is reading the series for the third time, came to me with something kind of interesting that I thought I would share. After Dudley is attacked by Dementors in OOTP, Petunia explains to Vernon what Dementors are. She says she heard Lily and "that awful boy" talking about them. I had always assumed she meant James and daughter pointed out that in Snape's memories in Deathly Hallows, Dementors are the topic that is discussed between Snape and Lily when Petunia is eavesdropping in the woods. I know it's not that big a deal, but it's just interesting to me because I would like to go back and see if there are any more instances of Petunia talking about Snape and we the reader just assume it's James. Had anyone else already figured this one out? Kudos to you if you did (and especially if it was already discussed!)
Anna L. Black - Jun 30, 2008 2:26 pm (#2542 of 2617)
I remember the theory that Snape is "the awful boy" circulating the fandom for some time before DH (and maybe even before HBP? Not sure). It is one of the theories that I very much liked to see "come true" in the book. I don't remember any more instances of this, but it might be interesting to watch for it in the coming series read-along!
PeskyPixie - Jun 30, 2008 4:17 pm (#2543 of 2617)
"Snape was just a bad kid." -Soul Search
Actually, I think Tom Riddle Jr. was a bad kid. Harry James Potter was a good kid. Severus Snape was a confused kid with deadly interests.
wynnleaf - Jun 30, 2008 5:51 pm (#2544 of 2617)
Pesky, if I recall correctly, the announcement in the Prophet was not of Snape's birth, but of Eileen's marriage to Tobias Snape, thereby alerting Hermione to the fact that the "Half Blood Prince" name came from Snape using his mother's maiden name. So we actually have no evidence that there was someone who cared for Snape early on.
Snape's home life? I agree with Soul Search that the various hints JKR gives us are meant to show us the correct picture, but I disagree that the hints JKR gives are only of arguing.
Eileen (most likely it was her) physically "cowering" in front of Tobias (probably it was him), shows a physical fear, not just two people who yell at each other. So there's a greater likelihood than not that there was at least some physical abuse by Tobias to Eileen. There's been a lot of discussion in the past that in reality abused women often don't use the means that they have (magic, in Eileen's case) to escape their abusive husbands.
The neglect evident in DH and hinted at in other books is important. Snape is described like a plant kept out of the sun. At 15 or 16, his underwear was graying -- generally meaning not that it wasn't clean (after all, at Hogwarts it's most likely house elves doing laundry), but that it's really old. We see him in DH with Lily wearing his father's old coats. That's a 9 year old kid wearing an adult coat and also some strange garb that looked like a smock. Add to that an individual that doesn't seem to have ever learned to care for his teeth or even his hair. And Snape, in talking to Lily, gives the impression that his parents don't pay much attention to him at all.
Overall, I'd say that Eileen and Tobias neglected Severus as much as the Dursleys neglected Harry, only for different reasons. As for actual physical abuse, it's hard to say because Vernon is never shown to physically abuse Harry, but Eileen is shown to be physically afraid of Tobias, so there's at least some indication that Tobias was violent at home.
The Dursley's attitude toward Harry was horrible, but at least he could realistically imagine that his real parents loved him. Snape's parents appear to care little for him, at least in that they seem very neglectful. And young Severus claims Tobias doesn't like anything. Of course, maybe he's mistaken, but young Severus doesn't appear to believe that his own father cares for him.
Yep, Harry turned out more or less fine. But Dumbledore himself claims that this is practically miraculous (at the end of OOTP), so I really don't think that Harry turning out relatively well should lead us to believe that "if he can do it, anyone can."
PeskyPixie - Jun 30, 2008 5:58 pm (#2545 of 2617)
"If I recall correctly, the announcement in the Prophet was not of Snape's birth, but of Eileen's marriage to Tobias Snape, thereby alerting Hermione to the fact that the "Half Blood Prince" name came from Snape using his mother's maiden name. So we actually have no evidence that there was someone who cared for Snape early on." -wynnleaf
Hermione: "I was going through the rest of the old 'Prophets' and there was a tiny announcement about Eileen Prince marrying a man called Tobias Snape, and then later on an announcement saying that she'd given birth to a -"
"-murderer," spat Harry. (HBP)
Solitaire - Jun 30, 2008 6:18 pm (#2546 of 2617)
I know you will probably find this hard to believe, but ... I don't think Snape was necessarily just a bad kid.
I can't remember, it has been so long ... Did we ever learn the identity of the man hollering at the woman we believe to be Snape's mother? Couldn't it have been a brother or Eileen Prince's father? If they were pure-bloods, then it seems likely they might have really been angry with her for marrying a Muggle. I can imagine a brother or father coming over and bullying her--especially if her husband had left her.
Think of Merope and Tom Riddle, Sr. Had she lived and returned to her family home, can you imagine what Marvolo and Morfin would have said and done to her? I remember thinking, early on, that this guy must have been a relative of Snape's mom. If an uncle, perhaps he is the one who taught Snape all the dark curses to use against his enemies.
Just a thought ...
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jun 30, 2008 6:34 pm (#2547 of 2617)
I realize that the man shouting at the woman with the young Snape (must have been Severus) watching could have been many people. Maybe he was visiting his grandparents? Maybe he was at the neighbors. Maybe anything. But given that JKR didn't give any indication of other people in Snape's history being important to his character's story, I think we are meant to assume that this was Tobias and Eileen.
Ah, Pesky, you're right. There was an announcement. On the other hand, we don't know that it was placed in the Prophet by anyone special to the Snapes. In two of the towns where my children were born (half a continent apart, by the way), the local newspapers carry the names of all babies born locally. No one has to place the announcements, as the newspapers get the names from the hospitals.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 30, 2008 8:59 pm (#2548 of 2617)
Did we ever learn the identity of the man hollering at the woman we believe to be Snape's mother? Solitaire
I think your argument that it is possible that the abusive man yelling at the cowering wife could be someone else is valid. I remember arguing this point of view before Deathly Hallows but then I was also arguing that Tobias could have been a good father.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 30, 2008 9:03 pm (#2549 of 2617)
May I remind you? ..."As for actual physical abuse, it's hard to say because Vernon is never shown to physically abuse Harry, but Eileen is shown to be physically afraid of Tobias, so there's at least some indication that Tobias was violent at home."
"Eyes streaming, he swayed, trying to focus on the street to spot the source of the noise, but he had barely staggered upright when two large purple hands reached through the open window and closed tightly around his throat. 'Put - it - away!' Uncle Vernon snarled into Harry's ear. 'Now.' Before - anyone - sees!' 'Get - off - me!' Harry gasped. For a few seconds they struggled, Harry pulling at his uncles sausage-like fingers with his left hand, his right maintaining a firm grip on his raised wand; then, as the pain in the top of Harry's head gave a particularly nasty throb, Uncle Vernon yelped and released Harry as though he had received an electric shock. Some invisible force seemed to have surged through his nephew, making him impossible to hold."
There are several references to Harry knowing better than to get within Vernon's reach.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 30, 2008 9:53 pm (#2550 of 2617)
In the same way that someone like Harry can turn out to be "good" despite his circumstances because 'that's just the way he is', why couldn't someone like Snape turn out to be "bad" because 'that's just the way he is'? What I'm saying is why can't Snape be "bad" and his parents didn't give a toss about him? Perhaps if they had, he might not have turned out the way he did. They might have counter-acted the "bad seed" aspect of him. But because they didn't, combined (maybe) with his innate yucky qualities, he turned out the way he did.
PeskyPixie - Jun 30, 2008 10:06 pm (#2551 of 2617)
Yeah, he has some natural 'yuckiness' (LOL, I love that description!) to him, doesn't he? However, I don't think it's as bad as Tom Riddle Jr.
Solitaire - Jun 30, 2008 11:32 pm (#2552 of 2617)
But Twinkles, Harry was not an adult and could not use magic to keep Uncle Vernon away. He had to avoid him in the Muggle way. Mrs. Snape would have been an adult and could have used magic to defend herself. That does not necessarily mean that she did ... only that she could have.
Quinn, the only argument I have against Snape being inherently bad is that he did help, in the end. I still do not think Snape was a very nice human being ... but he wasn't evil in the same vein as Voldemort or Dolores Umbridge.
Solitaire
Dryleaves - Jul 1, 2008 12:46 am (#2553 of 2617)
In the same way that someone like Harry can turn out to be "good" despite his circumstances because 'that's just the way he is', why couldn't someone like Snape turn out to be "bad" because 'that's just the way he is'? What I'm saying is why can't Snape be "bad" and his parents didn't give a toss about him? Perhaps if they had, he might not have turned out the way he did. They might have counter-acted the "bad seed" aspect of him. (Quinn)
Sort of makes you wonder what sort you are yourself, doesn't it?
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2008 5:23 am (#2554 of 2617)
I don't think Harry is "good" just because that's "the way he is." Harry's circumstances are different.
Because Harry is orphaned and living with his nasty relatives who abuse him, he assumes his parents loved him and were wonderful. He loves their memory. Therefore later, when he learns they were killed by Voldemort, he naturally wants to oppose anything to do with Voldemort including LV himself, Dark Magic, Slytherin, and the blood purity nastiness that LV espoused.
Because Harry grew up watching spoiled, bullying Dudley get all the kudos from the nasty Dursleys, Harry came to despise the idea of being spoiled or being a bully.
Snape, on the other hand, apparently had no way to imagine that there was really some other parents who had loved him. So he had no long-dead parents to love. His parents neglected him and we see no evidence of their love for him. When JKR was asked if anyone had shown love to Snape she said yes, but she seems to have meant Lily. We don't see any evidence of love from his parents.
When Snape goes off to Hogwarts, he has no reasons, like Harry did, to decide to avoid anything to do with Dark Magic, Slytherin, or blood prejudice (remember Harry is avoiding the things that led to the deaths of the parents he believes loved him).
Besides, if Snape was just inherently bad, then he wouldn't have turned to the good side and spent 16 years serving that side, risking his life for others, even to save someone like he disliked, etc. Inherently bad people don't do that. In any case, what does that mean about being just "bad" because that's "just the way he is"? A psychopath may be hardwired to completely lack any ability to have compassion or love for others, but other than a psychopath (which Snape is not ), what is meant by Snape just being inherently bad? He was born that way??? Some people are just born bad? And Harry was born good? If so, then we can't credit Harry at all for his goodness, if it was all just the luck of being born "good".
But circumstances do shape people's choices. Harry has circumstances that move him to chose to oppose LV, avoid Slytherin and Dark Magic. Ultimately, Harry does not choose to completely avoid Dark Magic, as circumstances cause him to make many bad choices, even though they are for what Harry must think are "good" (I differ) reasons.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2008 5:35 am (#2555 of 2617)
Oh, two other things.
1. Was it someone other than Tobias in the memory? Before DH we speculated that it could be someone else, like maybe Eileen's father. But given the absence of any other info from JKR, and especially because she doesn't give any indication of another adult in Snape's youth that was important to his story line, I think we have to assume that the man in the memory is Tobias. Otherwise, what is the alternative? JKR threw in some random man and he could be anybody at all, which means the scene is completely unimportant. But obviously JKR meant the scene to have some importance in terms of giving info about Snape's life. So that means it can't be a nameless random person who could just as easily be Uncle Joe, Grandpa Prince, or the neighbor down the street.
2. Dursley versus Snape abuse. Yes, Vernon does try to choke Harry. And Harry also talks about learning how to duck around the Dursleys. But we don't see Harry really fearful of Vernon. Even as a child of 10 he's not flinching away from Vernon, living in terror of physical abuse from him, etc. So yes, Vernon did some things, and clearly the choking thing was bad, but I don't get an impression of regular physical abuse, or I think JKR would have made that more clear, especially given the very large amount of info she gives us about Harry's home life. None of the family fears Vernon, including Harry. Harry's comments about knowing how to duck aren't the same as actual fear of Vernon which would more likely show up in cowering or flinching around him, and certainly not Harry's complete willingness to stand up to Vernon whenever he wants.
On the other had, she only gives little snippets of Snape's childhood and the only pieces of info she gives about his parents are 1. the mother physically in fear of the father 2. the evidence of neglect toward Snape 3. the evidence of being quite poor 4. young Severus' mentioning the arguing at home 5. Severus mentioning his father not liking anything which presumably also means anything to do with Severus.
I'll say again, the abuse seems quite different, but on a similar scale. The huge difference is that Harry knows he was loved and valued by his parents, while Snape's evidence is that his parents did not value him. Harry has parents to whose memory he can be faithful, causing him to oppose all who opposed his parents. Snape had parents who, if they caused Snape to choose anything, would perhaps engender a desire to oppose whatever they represented for him.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 1, 2008 6:05 am (#2556 of 2617)
possible definitions
inherently good-willing to risk your life for someone else because it's the right thing or what has to be done. In real life donating a kidney for a stranger.
not inherently good--afraid to do what is good or what is right. Not donating a kidney to save a member of one's family because of fear.
I know I used an extreme example but I hope to get the point across that someone who we would think is inherently good would do the first without question.
Harry is inherently good because he had no delemnia in accepting death.
In Snape's youth, he let fear rule his life and chose to follow Voldemort. But with great effort he risked all to save Lily. I don't think the quality that allowed Harry to give up his life for others was inherently in Snape. Snape had to actually work to do this.
mona amon - Jul 1, 2008 6:45 am (#2557 of 2617)
Ramb, I find I can't agree.
Now I wouldn't dream of donating a kidney to a stranger, which according to your example makes me 'not inherently good'. But I would definitely donate a kidney to a family member, so I'm not 'not inherently good.' That's confusing!
Harry is inherently good because he had no delemnia in accepting death.
I feel that Harry's willingness to sacrifice his life for others is an extreme case of 'goodness'. The average person can be considered inherently good if they are able, on the whole, to do what is right and refrain from doing things that cause harm, even if they are not prepared to go so far as to sacrifice their lives for the greater good.
I don't think the quality that allowed Harry to give up his life for others was inherently in Snape.
I think it was. We first see him willing to give up his life to save Lily. Ok, maybe that's not such a big deal because he loved her. But at the end of GoF we see him getting ready to go to what may very likely be his death, only for the sake of the greater good, and he continues to risk his life on a daily basis as Dumbledore's spy. I feel what he did was equal to what Harry does, especially when you consider that Harry was making the sacrifice to save the many people whom he loved from Voldemort. Snape does it with almost no discernable motive. And I think Harry also feels that what Snape did was equal to what he did, which is why he singles out Snape, among all the brave people that he knew, as 'the bravest'.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2008 7:57 am (#2558 of 2617)
Ramb,
That may be a good choice, but it's not indicative of "inherent" goodness.
willing to risk your life for someone else because it's the right thing or what has to be done. In real life donating a kidney for a stranger. (ramb)
Well, Snape later in life risked his life both for strangers and even for Lupin who he actively disliked. Does that make him inherently good? No. Were those good actions? Yes.
The word "inherent" can be defined as follows:
Permanently existing in something; inseparably attached or connected; naturally pertaining to; innate; inalienable; as, polarity is an inherent quality of the magnet; the inherent right of men to life, liberty, and protection.
synonyms are as follows:
Innate; inborn; native; natural; inbred; inwrought; inseparable; essential; indispensable.
Soul Search, as far as I read his argument, was saying that Snape didn't do bad things in response to bad upbringing, but because he "was just a bad kid". That is, Snape was just bad, not because of anything in his past, but because he just was bad.
Quinn called him a "bad seed" as though even if his parents actions added to his badness, he was bad anyway, just, well, just because he was bad.
In both cases, Soul Search and Quinn seemed to me to be saying that Snape was inherently bad. In other words, he was born bad. He just was bad for no reason. His childhood might have made it worse, or maybe if his parents had been better they could have helped him, but he was just bad to start out with.
I totally disagree with this. A few people in this world appear to be "born bad" and those people seem to be psychopaths, who do not seem to be born with the innate ability to care about anyone, nor is it possible for them to learn to care. Snape is not a psychopath. And nothing in JKR's description of him implies he was "born bad." And what does being a "bad seed" actually mean anyway? That one is predestined to do bad? That one is born differently from everyone else? When did he become a bad seed? As an infant? In his mother's womb?
Quinn Crockett - Jul 1, 2008 11:55 am (#2559 of 2617)
Quinn called him a "bad seed" as though even if his parents actions added to his badness, he was bad anyway, just, well, just because he was bad. - Wynnleaf
Easy, Tiger. I merely proposed the idea, I never actually staked any claim on it. But even so, I don't think there is really any evidence to the contrary, no matter how vehemently you might disagree.
Besides, if Snape was just inherently bad, then he wouldn't have turned to the good side and spent 16 years serving that side, risking his life for others, even to save someone like he disliked, etc. Inherently bad people don't do that. - Wynnleaf
Except that in Snape's case, this was really more because of a contract he made with Dumbledore than any inherent desire to "do good". But if "inherently bad people" don't risk their lives to save others, then what are we to make of Voldemort going out of his way to grab Bellatrix and disapparate with her from the Ministry of Magic at the end of OP?
I think it's obvious that we all have a different definition of what a "good" person is. But one thing I think we can all agree on is that a definition of "doing good" must include putting others before one's self. While it's true that Snape ultimately does this (as Wynnleaf repeatedly points out), in my view, we really cannot discount the reason behind his actions - particularly when they are counter-balanced by his day-to-day behavior, as well as JKR's own assertion that, had it not been Lily's son who Voldemort chose for the prophecy, Snape would have remained a willing and faithful Death Eater.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 1, 2008 12:27 pm (#2560 of 2617)
Now I wouldn't dream of donating a kidney to a stranger, which according to your example makes me 'not inherently good'. But I would definitely donate a kidney to a family member, so I'm not 'not inherently good.' That's confusing!
I did not mean for this analogy to be carried this far. All I meant was that there are people who have donated organs to people they hardly know and that it is fair to say that these people are inherently good. It doesn't mean that if you don't you are not good.
But I think there is a distinction to Harry's goodness. As Mona Amon puts it, it is an extreme case of goodness. Dumbledore points this out as well by saying that Harry was never tempted to join the Dark side.
I was then contrasting this to someone who would NOT want to donate a kidney to a member of one's family because of fear. I do not mean to say that this person is inherently bad just that fear is playing a bigger part in the decision.
I don't think the quality that allowed Harry to give up his life for others was inherently in Snape.
What I meant by this is that Snape had to deliberately reject a lifestyle that he was accustomed to in order to do good. Harry's lifestyle was already consistent with his actions.
LOL, Pesky, I hope you are well now! To tell he truth I thought you were lurking and smirking in the background while we were doing our best to entertain you.
Talking about first names and last names: Although Snape is sometimes called "Severus" (even "Sev") by various characters, the narrator consistently calls him "Snape", which is not surprising, given that the narrator's viewpoint is Harry's and Harry will usually refer to his teachers by their last names. This is the same with Lupin, Dumbledore, McGonagall, etc. Only adults like Sirius are called by their first names by the narrator - the same as Harry calls them. (Students are similarly treated by the narrator: Hermione, Ron, Neville but Malfoy, etc.) However, there are a few scenes in which Harry is not present: I can think of two right now, the first chapter in PS and the Spinner's End chapter in HBP. In these chapters some characters are referred to by names different from those Harry would use. In the first chapter of PS, Uncle Vernon is "Mr Dursley", Aunt Petunia is "Mrs Dursley" (quite understandably). In Spinner's End, Mrs Malfoy is referred to as "Narcissa" by the narrator, even though this is probably not what Harry would call her. Snape, however, remains "Snape" here as well. In the various memory scenes again, the child Snape is referred to as "Snape" (seen through Harry's eyes). In this context, I find it striking that once in the second (brief) appearance of the Worst Memory Scene (The Prince's Tale), Snape is suddenly referred to as "Severus" by the narrator, who is narrating the scene from Harry's point of view:
But Harry kept his distance this time, because he knew what happened after James had hoisted Severus into the air and taunted him; he knew what had been done and said, and it gave him no pleasure to hear it again...
I did not check the whole book but I think it is very probable that this is the only occasion in the seven books where Snape is called "Severus" by Harry/the narrator. I suspect it must have some significance (just as Snape switching from "Malfoy" to "Draco" in OOTP should have some significance)... Perhaps it underlines that this is a moment when Harry (beginning to understand the real significance of Snape's Worst Memory) feels Snape, who is being taunted and humiliated, unexpectedly close to himself. Any opinions?
mona amon - Jun 25, 2008 9:16 am (#2532 of 2617)
I think it is very probable that this is the only occasion in the seven books where Snape is called "Severus" by Harry/the narrator.
Julia I noticed this too, but cannot make up my mind whether it was an error on the part of the author or whether we are supposed to attach any significance to it. But I like to think that it's an indication of Harry's changing feelings for Severus as he views his memories.
It's the same with Severus calling Lily 'Lily Potter' in the 'Harry has a bit of Voldemort's soul in him' memory. Did JKR intend Severus to call her that, or was it a mistake? If it was intentional, what could be the significance of Severus attaching the hated surname to Lily? I'm pretty sure it does not mean that at last he was reconciled to the fact that Lily had married James. Maybe in that emotional moment, he saw her, finally, as Harry Potter's mother?
I really wanted to see Severus calling Harry by his first name, but alas! he never reached that point. The most he can manage when he is feeling a bit sentimental is to refer to Harry as 'the boy'.
Dryleaves - Jun 25, 2008 9:32 am (#2533 of 2617)
Edited Jun 25, 2008 10:13 am
I think it is very probable that this is the only occasion in the seven books where Snape is called "Severus" by Harry/the narrator. (Julia)
Julia I noticed this too, but cannot make up my mind whether it was an error on the part of the author or whether we are supposed to attach any significance to it. (Mona)
I also thought it might be a mistake by the author and possibly the editor, but then of course it could be of significance. Notably in that case is that it is only once in this scene he is called "Severus", then it is Snape again, even when he is still upside down. Maybe the " James had hoisted Severus " is of significance, James vs. Severus? I don't know.
ETA: Steve, I agree completely!
Steve Newton - Jun 25, 2008 9:42 am (#2534 of 2617)
Part of the fun is assuming that there are no mistakes.
wynnleaf - Jun 25, 2008 5:41 pm (#2535 of 2617)
I don't think it was a mistake, primarily because it's not just any random point where Snape's name is mentioned, only instead of "Snape", "Severus" is used. Instead it occurs in a very crucial scene. If the "Severus" was a mistake, then isn't it highly circumstantial that it occurred here, rather that any of the many lesser scenes where Snape is mentioned?
Dryleaves - Jun 26, 2008 1:10 am (#2536 of 2617)
Maybe the use of "Severus" in this very location in this very scene is about not making James closer to Harry than Snape is. Harry otherwise refers to his father as "James" and to Snape as "Snape" (as we know). I think Harry identifies with Snape in this scene and is appalled by what his father is doing, and as Julia suggests, the real significance of this memory may dawn on him. Therefore, when James hoists Snape into the air, it is important that we understand that it is not James the father who hoists Snape the teacher into the air (as a punishment for his future crimes against his son, for example), but James the bully that hoists Severus, the in this case innocent Hogwarts student, into the air. Snape is closer to Harry and James maybe further from him than usual. It is important that they are judged from the situation and not from what relationship Harry generally has to each of them.
Julia H. - Jun 26, 2008 1:55 am (#2537 of 2617)
LOL, Steve, this is exactly how I feel but you said it so well!
Interesting comments, all. Yes, the location of this name in the book is an important one. Maybe it is as Dryleaves says:
Therefore, when James hoists Snape into the air, it is important that we understand that it is not James the father who hoists Snape the teacher into the air (as a punishment for his future crimes against his son, for example), but James the bully that hoists Severus, the in this case innocent Hogwarts student, into the air. Snape is closer to Harry and James maybe further from him than usual. It is important that they are judged from the situation and not from what relationship Harry generally has to each of them.
Then again, maybe Harry at that moment can see these boys for what they are: teenagers younger than him (at the moment of watching) both in terms of actual age and in terms of experience/maturity. It is true, after that JKR switches back to "Snape", but perhaps it would be too much if from that moment on Harry consistently regarded Snape as "Severus": he is yet to see the hilltop scene and he still does not know what really happened the night when DD died.
If it was intentional, what could be the significance of Severus attaching the hated surname to Lily? I'm pretty sure it does not mean that at last he was reconciled to the fact that Lily had married James. (Mona)
I have been thinking about it too. I agree that it is not likely to indicate any kind of "reconciliation" with Lily's marriage but I like to think that it does have some significance (in accordance with what Steve says ). In the hilltop scene, he says "Lily Evans", in this memory, he says "Lily Potter". He never mentions Lily's full name any other time. More precisely, he says "Lily Potter's son", so perhaps it indicates the complexity of what Harry means to him, rather than Lily.
The most he can manage when he is feeling a bit sentimental is to refer to Harry as 'the boy'.
"Feeling a bit sentimental": LOL! Actually "the boy" may indicate how central a discussion topic Harry is between these two men.
PeskyPixie - Jun 29, 2008 8:55 pm (#2538 of 2617)
LOL at Sentimental Severus!
We have discussed (on several threads) about the impact of love on the person one grows up to become. Many have argued that although Harry is raised by two monsters he had one year of being adored by his 'good', loving parents and this is one of the reasons why he is able to love regardless of the terrible things which happen in his young life. The opposite argument is given for Voldy and, to a degree, Snape.
Actually, Snape is often said to be the product of a loveless marriage. Still, I wonder how early Snape's neglect at the hands of his parents began. We know that his parents(s) (or some relative) cared enough about his arrival to arrange for a birth notice in The Daily Prophet. Did he then, perhaps, experience some happiness and love from his parents in the earliest period of his life?
Dryleaves - Jun 30, 2008 9:57 am (#2539 of 2617)
The way I imagine it Snape's parents at some point of time loved each other and I think they loved their son. They probably got problems in their marriage rather early on, became destructive and full of their own misery and neglected their child. Probably neither of them were capable of expressing their love for him in any good way. I think it was a destructive relationship, but not necessarily completely loveless, at least not from the beginning.
Soul Search - Jun 30, 2008 1:44 pm (#2540 of 2617)
There seems to be a move to blame Snape's turning out bad, that is his interest in the Dark Arts and becoming a Death Eater, on a poor home life. I don't see that.
We only have a couple of citations for Snape's home life, and that is that his parents argued. One mention by Lily when they were ten or so and another from Snape's occulmency lesson memory. Merlin's pants, they could have been arguing about how bad Snape was becoming! These scenes must be the worst, or canon would have shown us others for the true picture. So, no one beat him or locked him in a closet and such. Harry had a much worse childhood and he turned out all right.
Snape was just a bad kid determined to fall in with the worst crowd in the wizarding world.
If anything, the press about Voldemort would have been the most influence on young Snape. In the same timeframe, maybe a little later, Regulus had a press collection about Voldemort. Regulus admired him, or his stated goals, so could have Snape.
Snape was just a bad kid.
Accio Sirius - Jun 30, 2008 2:03 pm (#2541 of 2617)
My daughter, who is reading the series for the third time, came to me with something kind of interesting that I thought I would share. After Dudley is attacked by Dementors in OOTP, Petunia explains to Vernon what Dementors are. She says she heard Lily and "that awful boy" talking about them. I had always assumed she meant James and daughter pointed out that in Snape's memories in Deathly Hallows, Dementors are the topic that is discussed between Snape and Lily when Petunia is eavesdropping in the woods. I know it's not that big a deal, but it's just interesting to me because I would like to go back and see if there are any more instances of Petunia talking about Snape and we the reader just assume it's James. Had anyone else already figured this one out? Kudos to you if you did (and especially if it was already discussed!)
Anna L. Black - Jun 30, 2008 2:26 pm (#2542 of 2617)
I remember the theory that Snape is "the awful boy" circulating the fandom for some time before DH (and maybe even before HBP? Not sure). It is one of the theories that I very much liked to see "come true" in the book. I don't remember any more instances of this, but it might be interesting to watch for it in the coming series read-along!
PeskyPixie - Jun 30, 2008 4:17 pm (#2543 of 2617)
"Snape was just a bad kid." -Soul Search
Actually, I think Tom Riddle Jr. was a bad kid. Harry James Potter was a good kid. Severus Snape was a confused kid with deadly interests.
wynnleaf - Jun 30, 2008 5:51 pm (#2544 of 2617)
Pesky, if I recall correctly, the announcement in the Prophet was not of Snape's birth, but of Eileen's marriage to Tobias Snape, thereby alerting Hermione to the fact that the "Half Blood Prince" name came from Snape using his mother's maiden name. So we actually have no evidence that there was someone who cared for Snape early on.
Snape's home life? I agree with Soul Search that the various hints JKR gives us are meant to show us the correct picture, but I disagree that the hints JKR gives are only of arguing.
Eileen (most likely it was her) physically "cowering" in front of Tobias (probably it was him), shows a physical fear, not just two people who yell at each other. So there's a greater likelihood than not that there was at least some physical abuse by Tobias to Eileen. There's been a lot of discussion in the past that in reality abused women often don't use the means that they have (magic, in Eileen's case) to escape their abusive husbands.
The neglect evident in DH and hinted at in other books is important. Snape is described like a plant kept out of the sun. At 15 or 16, his underwear was graying -- generally meaning not that it wasn't clean (after all, at Hogwarts it's most likely house elves doing laundry), but that it's really old. We see him in DH with Lily wearing his father's old coats. That's a 9 year old kid wearing an adult coat and also some strange garb that looked like a smock. Add to that an individual that doesn't seem to have ever learned to care for his teeth or even his hair. And Snape, in talking to Lily, gives the impression that his parents don't pay much attention to him at all.
Overall, I'd say that Eileen and Tobias neglected Severus as much as the Dursleys neglected Harry, only for different reasons. As for actual physical abuse, it's hard to say because Vernon is never shown to physically abuse Harry, but Eileen is shown to be physically afraid of Tobias, so there's at least some indication that Tobias was violent at home.
The Dursley's attitude toward Harry was horrible, but at least he could realistically imagine that his real parents loved him. Snape's parents appear to care little for him, at least in that they seem very neglectful. And young Severus claims Tobias doesn't like anything. Of course, maybe he's mistaken, but young Severus doesn't appear to believe that his own father cares for him.
Yep, Harry turned out more or less fine. But Dumbledore himself claims that this is practically miraculous (at the end of OOTP), so I really don't think that Harry turning out relatively well should lead us to believe that "if he can do it, anyone can."
PeskyPixie - Jun 30, 2008 5:58 pm (#2545 of 2617)
"If I recall correctly, the announcement in the Prophet was not of Snape's birth, but of Eileen's marriage to Tobias Snape, thereby alerting Hermione to the fact that the "Half Blood Prince" name came from Snape using his mother's maiden name. So we actually have no evidence that there was someone who cared for Snape early on." -wynnleaf
Hermione: "I was going through the rest of the old 'Prophets' and there was a tiny announcement about Eileen Prince marrying a man called Tobias Snape, and then later on an announcement saying that she'd given birth to a -"
"-murderer," spat Harry. (HBP)
Solitaire - Jun 30, 2008 6:18 pm (#2546 of 2617)
I know you will probably find this hard to believe, but ... I don't think Snape was necessarily just a bad kid.
I can't remember, it has been so long ... Did we ever learn the identity of the man hollering at the woman we believe to be Snape's mother? Couldn't it have been a brother or Eileen Prince's father? If they were pure-bloods, then it seems likely they might have really been angry with her for marrying a Muggle. I can imagine a brother or father coming over and bullying her--especially if her husband had left her.
Think of Merope and Tom Riddle, Sr. Had she lived and returned to her family home, can you imagine what Marvolo and Morfin would have said and done to her? I remember thinking, early on, that this guy must have been a relative of Snape's mom. If an uncle, perhaps he is the one who taught Snape all the dark curses to use against his enemies.
Just a thought ...
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jun 30, 2008 6:34 pm (#2547 of 2617)
I realize that the man shouting at the woman with the young Snape (must have been Severus) watching could have been many people. Maybe he was visiting his grandparents? Maybe he was at the neighbors. Maybe anything. But given that JKR didn't give any indication of other people in Snape's history being important to his character's story, I think we are meant to assume that this was Tobias and Eileen.
Ah, Pesky, you're right. There was an announcement. On the other hand, we don't know that it was placed in the Prophet by anyone special to the Snapes. In two of the towns where my children were born (half a continent apart, by the way), the local newspapers carry the names of all babies born locally. No one has to place the announcements, as the newspapers get the names from the hospitals.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 30, 2008 8:59 pm (#2548 of 2617)
Did we ever learn the identity of the man hollering at the woman we believe to be Snape's mother? Solitaire
I think your argument that it is possible that the abusive man yelling at the cowering wife could be someone else is valid. I remember arguing this point of view before Deathly Hallows but then I was also arguing that Tobias could have been a good father.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 30, 2008 9:03 pm (#2549 of 2617)
May I remind you? ..."As for actual physical abuse, it's hard to say because Vernon is never shown to physically abuse Harry, but Eileen is shown to be physically afraid of Tobias, so there's at least some indication that Tobias was violent at home."
"Eyes streaming, he swayed, trying to focus on the street to spot the source of the noise, but he had barely staggered upright when two large purple hands reached through the open window and closed tightly around his throat. 'Put - it - away!' Uncle Vernon snarled into Harry's ear. 'Now.' Before - anyone - sees!' 'Get - off - me!' Harry gasped. For a few seconds they struggled, Harry pulling at his uncles sausage-like fingers with his left hand, his right maintaining a firm grip on his raised wand; then, as the pain in the top of Harry's head gave a particularly nasty throb, Uncle Vernon yelped and released Harry as though he had received an electric shock. Some invisible force seemed to have surged through his nephew, making him impossible to hold."
There are several references to Harry knowing better than to get within Vernon's reach.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 30, 2008 9:53 pm (#2550 of 2617)
In the same way that someone like Harry can turn out to be "good" despite his circumstances because 'that's just the way he is', why couldn't someone like Snape turn out to be "bad" because 'that's just the way he is'? What I'm saying is why can't Snape be "bad" and his parents didn't give a toss about him? Perhaps if they had, he might not have turned out the way he did. They might have counter-acted the "bad seed" aspect of him. But because they didn't, combined (maybe) with his innate yucky qualities, he turned out the way he did.
PeskyPixie - Jun 30, 2008 10:06 pm (#2551 of 2617)
Yeah, he has some natural 'yuckiness' (LOL, I love that description!) to him, doesn't he? However, I don't think it's as bad as Tom Riddle Jr.
Solitaire - Jun 30, 2008 11:32 pm (#2552 of 2617)
But Twinkles, Harry was not an adult and could not use magic to keep Uncle Vernon away. He had to avoid him in the Muggle way. Mrs. Snape would have been an adult and could have used magic to defend herself. That does not necessarily mean that she did ... only that she could have.
Quinn, the only argument I have against Snape being inherently bad is that he did help, in the end. I still do not think Snape was a very nice human being ... but he wasn't evil in the same vein as Voldemort or Dolores Umbridge.
Solitaire
Dryleaves - Jul 1, 2008 12:46 am (#2553 of 2617)
In the same way that someone like Harry can turn out to be "good" despite his circumstances because 'that's just the way he is', why couldn't someone like Snape turn out to be "bad" because 'that's just the way he is'? What I'm saying is why can't Snape be "bad" and his parents didn't give a toss about him? Perhaps if they had, he might not have turned out the way he did. They might have counter-acted the "bad seed" aspect of him. (Quinn)
Sort of makes you wonder what sort you are yourself, doesn't it?
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2008 5:23 am (#2554 of 2617)
I don't think Harry is "good" just because that's "the way he is." Harry's circumstances are different.
Because Harry is orphaned and living with his nasty relatives who abuse him, he assumes his parents loved him and were wonderful. He loves their memory. Therefore later, when he learns they were killed by Voldemort, he naturally wants to oppose anything to do with Voldemort including LV himself, Dark Magic, Slytherin, and the blood purity nastiness that LV espoused.
Because Harry grew up watching spoiled, bullying Dudley get all the kudos from the nasty Dursleys, Harry came to despise the idea of being spoiled or being a bully.
Snape, on the other hand, apparently had no way to imagine that there was really some other parents who had loved him. So he had no long-dead parents to love. His parents neglected him and we see no evidence of their love for him. When JKR was asked if anyone had shown love to Snape she said yes, but she seems to have meant Lily. We don't see any evidence of love from his parents.
When Snape goes off to Hogwarts, he has no reasons, like Harry did, to decide to avoid anything to do with Dark Magic, Slytherin, or blood prejudice (remember Harry is avoiding the things that led to the deaths of the parents he believes loved him).
Besides, if Snape was just inherently bad, then he wouldn't have turned to the good side and spent 16 years serving that side, risking his life for others, even to save someone like he disliked, etc. Inherently bad people don't do that. In any case, what does that mean about being just "bad" because that's "just the way he is"? A psychopath may be hardwired to completely lack any ability to have compassion or love for others, but other than a psychopath (which Snape is not ), what is meant by Snape just being inherently bad? He was born that way??? Some people are just born bad? And Harry was born good? If so, then we can't credit Harry at all for his goodness, if it was all just the luck of being born "good".
But circumstances do shape people's choices. Harry has circumstances that move him to chose to oppose LV, avoid Slytherin and Dark Magic. Ultimately, Harry does not choose to completely avoid Dark Magic, as circumstances cause him to make many bad choices, even though they are for what Harry must think are "good" (I differ) reasons.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2008 5:35 am (#2555 of 2617)
Oh, two other things.
1. Was it someone other than Tobias in the memory? Before DH we speculated that it could be someone else, like maybe Eileen's father. But given the absence of any other info from JKR, and especially because she doesn't give any indication of another adult in Snape's youth that was important to his story line, I think we have to assume that the man in the memory is Tobias. Otherwise, what is the alternative? JKR threw in some random man and he could be anybody at all, which means the scene is completely unimportant. But obviously JKR meant the scene to have some importance in terms of giving info about Snape's life. So that means it can't be a nameless random person who could just as easily be Uncle Joe, Grandpa Prince, or the neighbor down the street.
2. Dursley versus Snape abuse. Yes, Vernon does try to choke Harry. And Harry also talks about learning how to duck around the Dursleys. But we don't see Harry really fearful of Vernon. Even as a child of 10 he's not flinching away from Vernon, living in terror of physical abuse from him, etc. So yes, Vernon did some things, and clearly the choking thing was bad, but I don't get an impression of regular physical abuse, or I think JKR would have made that more clear, especially given the very large amount of info she gives us about Harry's home life. None of the family fears Vernon, including Harry. Harry's comments about knowing how to duck aren't the same as actual fear of Vernon which would more likely show up in cowering or flinching around him, and certainly not Harry's complete willingness to stand up to Vernon whenever he wants.
On the other had, she only gives little snippets of Snape's childhood and the only pieces of info she gives about his parents are 1. the mother physically in fear of the father 2. the evidence of neglect toward Snape 3. the evidence of being quite poor 4. young Severus' mentioning the arguing at home 5. Severus mentioning his father not liking anything which presumably also means anything to do with Severus.
I'll say again, the abuse seems quite different, but on a similar scale. The huge difference is that Harry knows he was loved and valued by his parents, while Snape's evidence is that his parents did not value him. Harry has parents to whose memory he can be faithful, causing him to oppose all who opposed his parents. Snape had parents who, if they caused Snape to choose anything, would perhaps engender a desire to oppose whatever they represented for him.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 1, 2008 6:05 am (#2556 of 2617)
possible definitions
inherently good-willing to risk your life for someone else because it's the right thing or what has to be done. In real life donating a kidney for a stranger.
not inherently good--afraid to do what is good or what is right. Not donating a kidney to save a member of one's family because of fear.
I know I used an extreme example but I hope to get the point across that someone who we would think is inherently good would do the first without question.
Harry is inherently good because he had no delemnia in accepting death.
In Snape's youth, he let fear rule his life and chose to follow Voldemort. But with great effort he risked all to save Lily. I don't think the quality that allowed Harry to give up his life for others was inherently in Snape. Snape had to actually work to do this.
mona amon - Jul 1, 2008 6:45 am (#2557 of 2617)
Ramb, I find I can't agree.
Now I wouldn't dream of donating a kidney to a stranger, which according to your example makes me 'not inherently good'. But I would definitely donate a kidney to a family member, so I'm not 'not inherently good.' That's confusing!
Harry is inherently good because he had no delemnia in accepting death.
I feel that Harry's willingness to sacrifice his life for others is an extreme case of 'goodness'. The average person can be considered inherently good if they are able, on the whole, to do what is right and refrain from doing things that cause harm, even if they are not prepared to go so far as to sacrifice their lives for the greater good.
I don't think the quality that allowed Harry to give up his life for others was inherently in Snape.
I think it was. We first see him willing to give up his life to save Lily. Ok, maybe that's not such a big deal because he loved her. But at the end of GoF we see him getting ready to go to what may very likely be his death, only for the sake of the greater good, and he continues to risk his life on a daily basis as Dumbledore's spy. I feel what he did was equal to what Harry does, especially when you consider that Harry was making the sacrifice to save the many people whom he loved from Voldemort. Snape does it with almost no discernable motive. And I think Harry also feels that what Snape did was equal to what he did, which is why he singles out Snape, among all the brave people that he knew, as 'the bravest'.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2008 7:57 am (#2558 of 2617)
Ramb,
That may be a good choice, but it's not indicative of "inherent" goodness.
willing to risk your life for someone else because it's the right thing or what has to be done. In real life donating a kidney for a stranger. (ramb)
Well, Snape later in life risked his life both for strangers and even for Lupin who he actively disliked. Does that make him inherently good? No. Were those good actions? Yes.
The word "inherent" can be defined as follows:
Permanently existing in something; inseparably attached or connected; naturally pertaining to; innate; inalienable; as, polarity is an inherent quality of the magnet; the inherent right of men to life, liberty, and protection.
synonyms are as follows:
Innate; inborn; native; natural; inbred; inwrought; inseparable; essential; indispensable.
Soul Search, as far as I read his argument, was saying that Snape didn't do bad things in response to bad upbringing, but because he "was just a bad kid". That is, Snape was just bad, not because of anything in his past, but because he just was bad.
Quinn called him a "bad seed" as though even if his parents actions added to his badness, he was bad anyway, just, well, just because he was bad.
In both cases, Soul Search and Quinn seemed to me to be saying that Snape was inherently bad. In other words, he was born bad. He just was bad for no reason. His childhood might have made it worse, or maybe if his parents had been better they could have helped him, but he was just bad to start out with.
I totally disagree with this. A few people in this world appear to be "born bad" and those people seem to be psychopaths, who do not seem to be born with the innate ability to care about anyone, nor is it possible for them to learn to care. Snape is not a psychopath. And nothing in JKR's description of him implies he was "born bad." And what does being a "bad seed" actually mean anyway? That one is predestined to do bad? That one is born differently from everyone else? When did he become a bad seed? As an infant? In his mother's womb?
Quinn Crockett - Jul 1, 2008 11:55 am (#2559 of 2617)
Quinn called him a "bad seed" as though even if his parents actions added to his badness, he was bad anyway, just, well, just because he was bad. - Wynnleaf
Easy, Tiger. I merely proposed the idea, I never actually staked any claim on it. But even so, I don't think there is really any evidence to the contrary, no matter how vehemently you might disagree.
Besides, if Snape was just inherently bad, then he wouldn't have turned to the good side and spent 16 years serving that side, risking his life for others, even to save someone like he disliked, etc. Inherently bad people don't do that. - Wynnleaf
Except that in Snape's case, this was really more because of a contract he made with Dumbledore than any inherent desire to "do good". But if "inherently bad people" don't risk their lives to save others, then what are we to make of Voldemort going out of his way to grab Bellatrix and disapparate with her from the Ministry of Magic at the end of OP?
I think it's obvious that we all have a different definition of what a "good" person is. But one thing I think we can all agree on is that a definition of "doing good" must include putting others before one's self. While it's true that Snape ultimately does this (as Wynnleaf repeatedly points out), in my view, we really cannot discount the reason behind his actions - particularly when they are counter-balanced by his day-to-day behavior, as well as JKR's own assertion that, had it not been Lily's son who Voldemort chose for the prophecy, Snape would have remained a willing and faithful Death Eater.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 1, 2008 12:27 pm (#2560 of 2617)
Now I wouldn't dream of donating a kidney to a stranger, which according to your example makes me 'not inherently good'. But I would definitely donate a kidney to a family member, so I'm not 'not inherently good.' That's confusing!
I did not mean for this analogy to be carried this far. All I meant was that there are people who have donated organs to people they hardly know and that it is fair to say that these people are inherently good. It doesn't mean that if you don't you are not good.
But I think there is a distinction to Harry's goodness. As Mona Amon puts it, it is an extreme case of goodness. Dumbledore points this out as well by saying that Harry was never tempted to join the Dark side.
I was then contrasting this to someone who would NOT want to donate a kidney to a member of one's family because of fear. I do not mean to say that this person is inherently bad just that fear is playing a bigger part in the decision.
I don't think the quality that allowed Harry to give up his life for others was inherently in Snape.
What I meant by this is that Snape had to deliberately reject a lifestyle that he was accustomed to in order to do good. Harry's lifestyle was already consistent with his actions.
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wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2008 1:25 pm (#2561 of 2617)
Quinn,
I think there's some misunderstanding about exactly what JKR has said about Snape's reasons and what she didn't say.
Here, I believe, is the relevant quote on July 26 on the Today Show:
Greta, 8: If Snape didn't love Lily, would he have still tried to protect Harry?
JKR: No. He Definitely wouldn't have done. He wouldn't have been remotely interested in what happened to this boy.
Note that the focus isn't on whether or not Snape would have stayed a faithful follower of LV, but as to whether or not he would have tried to protect Harry. Remember that Snape only started to focus on protecting Harry after Lily's death. So the point of this question has nothing to do with whether or not Snape would have become turned off by LV's actions and attempted to leave the Death Eaters if he hadn't been in love with Lily. The point of the question was if he would have protected Harry after the Potter's deaths if he hadn't loved Lily.
Here's another quote from the Bloomsbury Chat:
Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake
J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
So if Snape had it to do over, he wouldn't have become a Death Eater.
And another quote in the Bloomsbury Chat where JKR compares Harry to Snape.
Barbara: I was very disappointed to see harry use crucio and seem to enjoy it his failure to perform that kind of curse in the past has been a credit to his character why the change, and did harry later regret having enjoyed deliberately causing pain
J.K. Rowling: Harry is not, and never has been, a saint. Like Snape, he is flawed and mortal.
It doesn't sound to me like JKR is saying that Harry is inherently good while Snape is inherently bad, but rather, that they are both flawed.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2008 1:39 pm (#2562 of 2617)
After finding the quotes above, I did a little more searching and found this quote, which seems quite apropos to our discussion. It's from Carnegie Hall question and answer session:
I was really [?] the week after I finished the book. And I went to a chat room - not a chat room, what am I talking about? [laughter] I never go in chat rooms. I went onto a fan site because I was looking for questions to put up on my Web site, which is sometimes difficult. And I was so heartened to see that people on the message boards that people were still arguing about Snape. The book was out, and they were still arguing whether Snape was a good guy But that was really wonderful to me, because there's a question there, was Snape a good guy or not? In many ways he really wasn't. SoI haven't been deliberately misleading everyone all this time, when I say that he's a good guy. Because even though he did love and he loved very deeply and he was very brave, both qualities that I admire above anything else. He was bitter and he was vindictive... but right at the very very end, he did, as your question acknowledges, acheive a kind of peace together and I tried to show that in the epilogue.
Some key lines are: "was Snape a good guy or not? In many ways he really wasn't. SoI haven't been deliberately misleading everyone all this time, when I say that he's a good guy."
JKR would say that on the one hand Snape is not "good" because he is bitter and vindictive. On the other hand, she does call him "good" because of his deep love and bravery in acting on that love. In my opinion, that doesn't add up to Snape being bad at heart, or inherently bad, or a "bad seed" or whatever. He has bad aspects and good aspects. Like she said in comparison to Harry, Snape is flawed.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 1, 2008 2:44 pm (#2563 of 2617)
Thanks for putting that up there, Wynnleaf. I don't know how you guys keep track of all that stuff. I'm impressed!
But I don't think I have grossly misinterpreted the author's response. Obviously if Snape hadn't loved Lily he would never have gone to Dumbledore in the first place. He would have gone merrily on being a loyal Death Eater. I think it is well-established that his feelings for Lily were the only reason he sought Dumbledore out. Thus, no Lily, Snape sticks with his side.
But I was also considering other things she's said (these are from the Accio Quotes web site):
Lily might have grown to love Snape “if he had not loved Dark Magic so much.” - To me this is incorporated in the idea putting others before one's self.
Snape thought he could have his dark magic friends and Lily too. He never understood her aversion and thought she would be impressed. - I feel this is because he never really paid much attention to her objections. Again, putting others before one's self. He doesn't have to agree with her about Dark Magic, but at least acknowledge her views and disagree in principle. He never seems to do this, instead making it about James Potter rather than something he, himself, is involved with.
Barbara J - Jul 1, 2008 7:58 pm (#2564 of 2617)
De-lurking to say -- I think it's important to remember that the last two statements relating to Snape -- his inability to really understand Lily, and his love of dark magic -- are referring to teenaged Snape, and are not necessarily the way we should judge him later (just as, IMO, we are not intended to judge James solely by whether he was an obnoxious, self-absorbed teen).
Quinn Crockett - Jul 1, 2008 8:47 pm (#2565 of 2617)
That's true Barbara. But these are JKR's own words regarding the character she created. She does not qualify that any of these qualities ever changed, which... Well, wouldn't she have if they had? I mean, she also says that she doesn't see Snape as a hero because he is vindictive and a bully. So, I guess I don't think it really makes any difference whether we're talking about Snape as a teenager or an adult.
Dryleaves - Jul 1, 2008 11:15 pm (#2566 of 2617)
Quinn, one of your quotes is "Snape thought he could have his dark magic friends and Lily too. He never understood her aversion and thought she would be impressed." Are you saying that this never changed? The way I see it he realized that he could not have them both when Lily was targeted and then he did turn his back on those dark magic friends.
When it comes to "hero" I think she later agreed that Snape is an anti-hero. She might prefer more perfect heroes, but I am not sure she ever meant that Snape was essentially bad.
I think the thing with Snape is that he is both grand and petty at the same time. And it is very possible that a person could donate a kidney to a stranger and always take the last piece of chocolate from the box without asking first if anyone else would like to have it.
I do not think we are born as blank pages, but that does not mean we are born either basically good or basically evil. Just because you make a mistake does not mean that this is more true than your attempts to correct it. Just because you are not always good it does not mean that you are essentially bad. The way we turn out is probably the result of a very complex process where many different factors are relevant and some of them we have influence over, others not. For example Snape's action could have saved the Potters had there not been others who also made mistakes. Hmmm... I just think the "born bad" theory is a creepy one...
wynnleaf - Jul 2, 2008 6:14 am (#2567 of 2617)
But these are JKR's own words regarding the character she created. She does not qualify that any of these qualities ever changed, which... (Quinn)
But she was speaking within a certain context. You can't take her words and assume they fit Snape in any context.
When JKR said that Lily might have grown to love Snape if he hadn't loved the Dark Arts, you can't just assume that JKR would have also have said "if Lily was alive at age 36 she might have grown to love Snape if only he hadn't kept loving Dark Arts into his late 30s." JKR was answering a question about teenage Lily and whether she might have loved teenage Snape. It is only your assumption that JKR's comments about teenage Snape should also apply to late-30s Snape.
Same for this comment: Snape thought he could have his dark magic friends and Lily too. He never understood her aversion and thought she would be impressed.
JKR is clearly speaking in the context of teenage Snape. But it is only your assumption that Snape continued to not understand her aversion that makes you believe he was the same way into his late 30s. But JKR also said that contemporaneous Snape would never have become a DE if he had it to do over. That doesn't exactly fit with your idea that he continued into adulthood not understanding Lily's aversion to Dark Magic and thinking she would be impressed. Really, you know, a Snape this thick who couldn't comprehend that Lily wasn't and wouldn't be impressed, even into his late 30s, wouldn't be particularly believable, in my opinion. In any case, it doesn't fit with JKR's other comments.
I mean, she also says that she doesn't see Snape as a hero because he is vindictive and a bully. (Quinn)
No, she augmented her comments. Here's the one you're thinking of:
MV: Was Snape always intended to be a hero?
JKR: [sharp intake of breath] Is he a hero? You see I don't see him really as a hero.
MV: Really?
JKR: Yeh. He's spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book. But, was he brave? Yes, immensely.
Note, by the way, that JKR says that Snape continued to be spiteful and a bully (although she doesn't show this much in the last year or so), but not that he continued to love Dark Arts or that he continued to not understand that Lily wouldn't admire him as a DE, or any of those other teenage faults.
Then a little while later, JKR had this to say in the Bloomsbury Chat about Snape being a hero:
Lechicaneuronline: Do you think snape is a hero
J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love, and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!
Once again, the flaws JKR continues to attribute to adult Snape are not love of Dark Arts or that he'd not do anything for anyone outside of his love for Lily. The adult flaws JKR attributes to Snape are being "rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity."
By the way, I don't have these quotes memorized or something. I just look them up on the Accio Quote site. It took me all of about 10 seconds to look up the one above, between Google and "Find in this page" although I already knew it was in the Bloomsbury Chat interview. Once you know where to look, it's easy.
Julia H. - Jul 2, 2008 10:09 am (#2568 of 2617)
Exciting discussion, everyone!
I don't think people are born "inherently" bad or good. (Psychopaths may be exceptions.) I think people are born with certain genes that determine some personality traits but most or many of these can turn out to be good or bad. (Putting aside genetics, a brave person can become a bully or a hero; a money-minded person can become a great economist or someone for whom money is everything - or even both; a shy person can be modest and nice or can be someone who is not able to achieve anything in life etc.) Most people at least are born with a potential for good and a potential for bad and upbringing influences to what extent and how we can use our potentials. That is why education is important. If Snape was inherently bad, his becoming a DE would not be very interesting and his dying for the good cause would be completely incomprehensible. The same applies if Harry is inherently good. The idea of choices would not make much sense either. I do think Snape's family background has a lot to do with his bad choices and the fact that Harry did have loving parents (even if for only a short time) had a lot to do with his good choices.
We are the results of our genes, our upbringing/background and our choices but these things are not independent of each other but interwoven in many ways. One of the greatest things about Snape is that he is able to understand his bad choices and is able to change. (This change in itself contradicts any inherent goodness or badness.) What is more, he tries to put the very grave results of his very bad choices right, tries to "pay back his debt" - this is an extremely difficult task to do (as we see, too). Oh, yes, he has many flaws till the end and the tragic realization of his mistake means he will never become a harmonic or happy man but when he dies in the Shack, he is a man who is very different from the boy who many years before had joined the DE's.
I don't quite agree with the phrase that better parents should/could have counter-acted the "bad seed" aspect of him (this is what Uncle Vernon is allegedly trying to do) but they should have focused on and encouraged the good things in him (a teacher's help and guidance could have been useful as well). My children are currently reading OOTP and that gave me a chance to think about the teenage James, Sirius and Snape. After the OWL exam, after writing much more than the others, Snape is still reading the questions, he is still thinking (probably) about whether he has given the best possible answers or not. It is easy to tell that he is anxious to do very well at that exam. James and Sirius finish early and then confidently discuss how easy the exam was. The teenage James and Sirius are horrible (IMO) yet they "grow out" many of their flaws (not going into details now) and some of the reasons why they are able to do that is that they have self-confidence and they are successful among their peers, they find acceptance among adults and they seem to know themselves: their abilities, their goals. Snape is insecure, he does not have very good self-knowledge and he is ambitious but does not seem to know what to do (in a meaningful way) with his talents. I think the latter is very important. He is also lonely (even while he still has Lily, he may crave for a more general acceptance). The teenage trouble-makers will grow into law-abiding adults, while the teenager who is desperately trying to find a place for himself and is ready to follow rather than rebel will make the worst choice. And just one sentence about Snape's father: I just read the other day an article about the importance of the father's good opinion for a boy, how eagerly little boys watch their fathers to see if he approves of them or not and how this and other things related to parents and acceptance shape the values children will develop later.
As for "Snape would not have become good if he had not loved Lily": I think it is probably true but loving Lily was a part of Snape's personality and also something that shaped - and eventually changed - his personality. So a Snape who does not love Lily would be a rather different person. I guess if Harry had not loved his (dead) parents, he would have been a different person (and probably a not so good person) as well. By the way, it is remarkable that Snape was able to love at all and to love so deeply apparently without first experiencing similar love from someone else and even after the psychologically destructive experiences he must have had among the DE's. If anything, that kind of ability to love seems to be "inherent" in him.
Soul Search - Jul 2, 2008 10:48 am (#2569 of 2617)
I am not sure of the redeeming "love" Snape had for Lily. The idea seems to be that Snape was "bad," but not all-the-way "bad" because he loved Lily, that is, no one that can love can be all bad. I don't see it.
What kind of "love" was there between them or what kind of "love" did Snape hold for Lily? Canon gives us not the slightest hint of romantic love. There were opportunities: they could have touched or held hands as children. Snape could of offered Lily his had as they left the Sirius/James compartment on the Hogwarts Express. A snogging scene could have been inserted. Snape could have walked over to Lily in the "worst memory" scene. Something. Anything. But there was nothing.
At best, they spent time together as kids. They were separated by house at Hogwarts so their time together would have been limited, and, apparently, declined with time. They associated with very different groups at Hogwarts, so would have had to sneak off to be together.
In the scene outside the Gryffindor tower Lily only uses the word "friendship." Lily's "love" for Snape was not strong enough so she would excuse his associates and Death Eater path. Snape's "love" for Lily was not, at that time, strong enough so he would give up his Death Eater path. It seems Snape's "love" for Lily only really manifested itself after she was dead.
As I recall, the word "love" only appears after the Dumbledore/Hilltop scene. Bit late for romance since she was already married and had Harry. And later, she was dead; way late for romance.
So, given the missed canon opportunities to show a romantic love, we are to believe there was only a friendship kind of love between them. And, Snape was driven to join Dumbledore and protect Harry because of his friendship for Lily. Note I didn't say he turned "good." He didn't. He just agreed to protect Harry. Snape may have even kept his relationships with closet Death Eaters, say Lucius Malfoy, as long as it didn't conflict with his protecting Harry for Dumbledore. (Narcissa knew the way to Spinners End.)
Snape "loving" Lily enough to join Dumbledore is a major plot point, yet I have never felt the motivation was properly developed.
PeskyPixie - Jul 2, 2008 11:06 am (#2570 of 2617)
While I don't believe that who we will be as adults is determined from the moment we enter the world, there is also a natural (genetic?) personality we are born with. I have spoken of my childhood 'friend' on a different thread. We were together since we were tiny babies and from birth we had incredibly different personalities and as a result one of us was loved by others much more than the other. Unfair, but true. Tom, Sev and Harry may well have also been naturally very different as infants.
All three were unloved: Tom felt abandoned by his mother, Severus was neglected by his parents, Harry had no positive feedback about his parents until eleven years of age.
Still, we don't see many similarities between them as kids. Severus seems confused, mixed up. He's a kid who will love very easily if given a grown-up who takes the time to be with him, learn about him and guide him.
Harry, despite growing up in a cupboard, does not seem at all bitter and twisted. He longs to 'escape' (as does young Severus) but does not desire to control everything that moves. He is then surrounded by good people upon entry to the Magical world (i.e. the 'bad guys' irritate him from their first meeting and he forms friendships with the 'good guys'. Luckily he does not encounter a 'good guy' like James or Sirius at Madam Malkin's.)
Tom is different. Combined with his great talent and loneliness is the desire to make others suffer for his misfortune. We don't see this trait in the other two and I think it fair to say that he naturally (genetically) possesses this will to dominate others.
However, nurture plays an incredible role in the person we grow up to become. I think Tom's nature could only be shaped positively by a parent who is not blinded by their love of this handsome, bright boy and can see the parts of his character which need work. I find it poor logic to say that Merope's love alone would have cured him of his Dark Lord fever. He is in need of strong parenting.
Harry naturally possesses a type of 'goodness' (BTW, 'good' does not equal 'perfection'). He doesn't think twice about risking his own life to save that creep Malfoy! I certainly would not have done that, and I am amazed by the courage of a boy who is able to do so without a lengthy debate with himself.
Snape is a normal kid with a crummy upbringing and it shows in his personality. He also happens to be bright and unpopular - not a good combination for someone with no parental guidance. I don't blame him for his interest in the Dark Arts. Heck, I'd love to learn about them myself! However, from a mixture of nature and nurture, I would never want to use them on others or join a hate group in order to fit in and show off my knowledge and talent. Snape does not have a strong enough character in his youth to overcome temptation and he pays for his mistakes with his life.
ETA: Regarding 'love', I think canon clearly indicates that young Severus has a whopping crush on Lily Evans, however, he is too shy and awkward to express his love to her. Oh, and teenage boys never made much sense to me. I don't think Severus' choice to not drop his Dark friends says anything about his love for Lily. He is very immature and only sees that "James Potter is cool and popular and a jock, that's why the chicks love him. Just wait till I get my membership skull and snake tattoo. Lily won't be able to keep her eyes off me!" Of course, not all males teens are like this, but many are controlled by their hormones and young Sev is no different from them.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 2, 2008 11:16 am (#2571 of 2617)
Are you saying that this never changed? - Dryleaves
No, I agree with you that he did finally - once it was far too late - come to understand what Lily had been trying to get through to him all along. I had meant to illustrate that Snape was so caught up in his own little mindset (self before others) that he was completely unable to even acknowledge that maybe Lily - his "best friend" - had a point.
I'm not sure I agree that he ever learned to put others before himself, though. While he did so in "the letter of the law" kind of way, I personally don't really have a sense that in "the spirit of the law" he really meant it.
What I mean is that while it's true that he did protect people (even those he may not have particularly liked), put himself in harm's way as a spy, etc, my sense is that he was doing all of these things more out of a sense of obligation, a promise (a "contract" if you will) to Dumbledore than any genuine "desire" to "do good" (for lack of a better term).
Of course, having said that, my sense is also that there was genuine affection between him and Dumbledore, so his sense of duty and honor to Dumbledore could carry a bit more weight than an ordinary Commander-Foot Soldier sort of relationship.
ETA: Soul Search, very sound points.
He's a kid who will love very easily if given a grown-up who takes the time to be with him, learn about him and guide him. - Pesky Pixie
Hm... Personally, I don't see this at all. He is already quite hardened by the age of 9.
PeskyPixie - Jul 2, 2008 11:52 am (#2572 of 2617)
Quinn, as someone who has seen the work done with so-called 'hardened' kids of nine years, Severus shows every sign of wanting to fit in and be loved but lacks the knowledge of how to do so. Not all kids are cuddly young things (for a variety of reasons), but they are still children, able to learn and grow if only there is some adult who will take the time to guide them.
ETA: "Love very easily" does not mean that he'll be all snuggly in a few hours. Severus is a serious kid by nature, which is fine. A few months of encouraging his intelligence, sharing in his interests, listening to his little stories, accepting him, giving him positive guidance, would earn his affection. He does not seem to be beyond this and it would probably have helped him out when he made important decisions as a young man.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 2, 2008 12:04 pm (#2573 of 2617)
Well, yeah. Everyone wants to fit in, whatever their situation. What I don't see in the Snape character is "He's a kid who will love very easily" (I understood what you meant). Obviously it's perfectly fine that you do, Pesky. I just don't happen to agree.
PeskyPixie - Jul 2, 2008 12:10 pm (#2574 of 2617)
Edited Jul 2, 2008 1:17 pm
It's not really a matter of agreeing with a point or not, Quinn. I just don't see the logic behind your point of view. Could you perhaps elaborate why you feel that by the age of nine Severus is beyond being a 'normal' child who would be able to be influenced by and feel a childlike love for a parent figure? I'd really like to understand your point of view.
ETA: Here's my reasoning: Without going into too much detail, I've personally seen cases where neglected kids from highly dysfunctional homes, who were said to be beyond help and destined for Juvenile hall, were able to turn around their lives and become wonderful young people when a lot of effort and patience was put into them. Child Sev seems quite tame compared to what I've seen.
ETA: Quinn, as I said, please elaborate so I can understand your point of view.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 2, 2008 12:43 pm (#2575 of 2617)
Edited Jul 2, 2008 1:13 pm
Could you perhaps elaborate why you feel that by the age of nine Severus is beyond being a 'normal' child who would be able to be influenced by and feel a childlike love for a parent figure?
Yeah, that's not what I said at all.
ETA: Yes, Pesky. Since you asked so nicely, I will elaborate.
I think we need to be extremely cautious about injecting our own experiences into our interpretation of the author's intent. It's normal, it's natural, and it determines whether or not the story, as a whole, "speaks to us". But I still think we should always try to keep a critical eye.
There is nothing in the story to indicate that Snape was "a kid who will love very easily". On the contrary, we are told that he only ever loved one person his entire life.
wynnleaf - Jul 2, 2008 1:25 pm (#2576 of 2617)
I don't know that I'd say that Snape would love "easily" but I do think he was able to love "readily" those who gave him time, attention, acceptance, etc.
Just look at Lily. As soon as they meet and she accepts him as a friend, Snape cares for her. At nine years old.
But even later, who do we see after Lily who appears to give Snape time, acceptance, willingness to mentor him etc? The only person we actually know of was Dumbledore and he does seem to have affection for Dumbledore. Since that happened when Snape was an adult, or at least a young adult, it seems just as possible that he could have developed a strong affection for an adult who took the time to mentor him while he was a teenager. However, my impression is that there was no such adult, at least at the school, primarily because I find it amazing to think that even after the Prank incident, no one of the staff appeared to be making sure that Sirius and the other Marauders stopped their harassment of Snape. After all, the Marauders do not seem particularly concerned about attacking Snape right out in public in the Worst Memory scene. even though the trouble with the Prank had only occurred months before. So I don't think there was feeling among the students that any staff member -- Slughorn, for instance -- was watching out for Snape at Hogwarts.
And this is why I think Snape would find it easy to get caught up with Voldemort. If some of the Death Eaters had seemed to offer him acceptance, appreciation for his talents, and so on, I think he'd gravitate toward them quickly. And if that happened earlier among the Slytherin students like Avery or Mulciber, then it makes sense that Snape would gravitate toward them as students.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 2, 2008 2:12 pm (#2577 of 2617)
As soon as they meet and she accepts him as a friend, Snape cares for her. At nine years old. - Wynnleaf
I actually think that for Severus, his love for Lily could be qualified in many ways. But I think mostly she was his touchstone. As long as he had her in his life, he knew he was "okay" as it were. I don't think it ever really occurred to him that there may come a time when she might no longer be there, which may be why he never really considered her objections to his "dark arts friends" as a sort of tacit ultimatum about their relationship.
Of course, once she did end the friendship, he really was something of a jellyfish, carried along on the tide of his other, perhaps less intimate, relationships with the future Death Eaters.
Dryleaves - Jul 3, 2008 5:52 am (#2578 of 2617)
I'm not sure I agree that he ever learned to put others before himself, though. While he did so in "the letter of the law" kind of way, I personally don't really have a sense that in "the spirit of the law" he really meant it. What I mean is that while it's true that he did protect people (even those he may not have particularly liked), put himself in harm's way as a spy, etc, my sense is that he was doing all of these things more out of a sense of obligation, a promise (a "contract" if you will) to Dumbledore than any genuine "desire" to "do good" (for lack of a better term). (Quinn)
The way I see it Snape protects Harry because Lily died protecting her son against Voldemort. He protects him so that she did not die in vain and one way to do this is to fight Voldemort, in Snape's case by being a spy. He does this for Lily, who is dead and therefore completely unavailable to him, and I think he sincerely wants to do "the right thing" in order to undo as much as possible of what he did wrong. So perhaps he does what he does more because he wants to do good, than because he wants to be good. And that is maybe what you mean by "the spirit of the law"?
It may be a question of a sense of obligation, but I would not call it a "contract", and I think the sense of obligation is primarily towards Lily, but later also towards DD, but not because it is a contract, but because he has, as you write, a genuine affection for him. A lot of ethical theories are about obligation, so I do not think "obligation" in itself is something that makes an act less good.
I think Snape has the result in mind all the time: Harry must stay alive. His motivation is his love for Lily. In this sense I do not think he misses the spirit of the law.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 3, 2008 7:06 am (#2579 of 2617)
I'm not sure I agree that he ever learned to put others before himself, though. While he did so in "the letter of the law" kind of way, I personally don't really have a sense that in "the spirit of the law" he really meant it. What I mean is that while it's true that he did protect people (even those he may not have particularly liked), put himself in harm's way as a spy, etc, my sense is that he was doing all of these things more out of a sense of obligation, a promise (a "contract" if you will) to Dumbledore than any genuine "desire" to "do good" (for lack of a better term). Quinn Crockett
I realize I can't argue against gut feeling but...
Dumbledore through the portrait tells Snape that he has to do certain things for appearances only. He has to tell Voldemort when Harry is really leaving. We get the impression he has to let Charity die because to do anything differently jeopardizes his effectiveness as a spy. It seems to me that the letter of the law is follow Dumbledore's instructions regarding Harry.
Saving Lupin was not in Dumbledore's instructions. If anything people might have to die in order to save Harry. I guess I'm just questioning how you might think that saving Lupin isn't the spirit of the law.
wynnleaf - Jul 3, 2008 8:57 am (#2580 of 2617)
Hard to say sometimes the difference between the letter and the spirit of the law.
For instance, Harry saves Draco even though he thoroughly dislikes Draco. Why? It's not because he cares about Draco. Presumably, it's Harry's "saving people" thing, in that he can't stand by and watch while someone dies if he could possibly save them. But Snape says later in life (during the time of HBP), that he also cannot stand by and watch someone die if he can save them. Harry dislikes Draco and saves him anyway, without any obligation to do so. Snape dislikes Lupin, yet risks his cover and life to attempt to save him even though through his obligation to Dumbledore, he should do nothing to jeopardize his cover. I don't really see much ethical difference in the two actions, even though they are, of course, different situations.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 3, 2008 10:04 am (#2581 of 2617)
I agree that by around the time of HBP Snape had come to understand "the spirit of the law" and had learned to act within the "spirit of the law" on his own. Under Dumbledore's tutelage, he had been practicing this for so long, perhaps without really even knowing it (he was simply doing what Dumbledore told him), that by this point that he was able to make certain decisions without first being told what he should do.
Through the Prince's Tale memories, we see that HBP is really the first time where Dumbledore treats Snape much more as an equal - a co-conspirator, even - than he ever had before. He knows he is dying and that Snape must be ready to take over the very moment that time comes. Really, the fate of Wizarding Britain comes to rest almost entirely on Snape.
When he sees Lupin about to be attacked, Snape instinctively makes a move to protect him, despite his previous personal dislike for the man. But by this point, Snape is the New Dumbledore. He has honed his reflexes to protect and defend whenever it is within his power to do so, and without a second thought. Snape, and Snape alone, knows the Master Plan. However, he must maintain the appearance of being the Old Snape. Though he has always been able to keep this façade for the sake of Voldemort, the fact that Snape now genuinely cares for others - especially Dumbledore - is an incredible disadvantage. As Snape, himself, instructs Harry during the Occlumency lessons, one's emotions are one's own worst enemy when it comes to Legilimency.
But it took 15 years for Snape to get here. At the beginning of his service to Dumbledore, personally I can't see Snape going out of his way to save someone like Lupin in a similar situation. In the beginning, Snape simply did what Dumbledore told him, doing his duty, serving his penance. This is just my sense of it, though.
mona amon - Jul 4, 2008 5:22 am (#2582 of 2617)
But it took 15 years for Snape to get here. (Quinn)
Of course I can't prove it, but my own opinion is that he got there pretty soon after his hilltop encounter with Dumbledore. If people can be classified as 'inherently good' or 'inherently bad', I feel that Snape definitely belongs to the 'inherently good' category. Dumbledore seems to feel the same way, because he tells Harry that Severus 'returned' to the right side. This word is significant. It implies that he regarded him as a basically good person who has gone astray, a sort of Prodigal Son or Lost Sheep who has now come back to the fold. Doesn't the very fact that someone can change for the better mean that they are basically good?
So this is how I think it was. Snape, a basically good kid, is strongly tempted to join an evil organisation, and succumbs to this temptation. Once there, he suppresses whatever is good in him, and finally reaches the point where he becomes truly evil, with no moral sense or compassion or regard for the lives of others. Then Lily is targetted by Voldemort, and for the first time in his life he experiences what it is to be the victim of evil. But of course on the windy hilltop he is only a small part of the way towards reform, as he still has no regard for the life of anyone other than Lily. But I feel he must have started changing even as early as the year before the Potters were killed, when he was spying for Dumbledore. He was doing it to save Lily's life, but I'm sure that once he had turned his back on Voldemort, the inherently good side of him, which he had suppressed for so long, was given a chance to grow. And that's what makes it so easy for him to follow Dumbledore's orders. He seems to get a kick out of protecting people and doing important tasks for the good side. Just my opinion of course.
Snape thought he could have his dark magic friends and Lily too. He never understood her aversion and thought she would be impressed. (J.K.Rowling)
The way I see it he realized that he could not have them both when Lily was targeted and then he did turn his back on those dark magic friends. (Dryleaves)
I cannot believe that when Snape actually joined the DE's, he was still trying to impress Lily. No one can be that blind. I think JKR's words refer to an earlier stage, before the worst memory and Lily's rejection of him. At this stage he probably thought he could impress Lily by joining this big, powerful gang, and fails to hear what she's trying to tell him. But once she rejects him I think he realises that it is final, and that is why he never tries to get back with her after that. So, when he actually signs up, I do not think it was about Lily any more. His reasoning must have been "Ok. I cannot have Lily, at least let me join Big V and get appreciated for my skills."
Dryleaves - Jul 4, 2008 5:57 am (#2583 of 2617)
No one can be that blind. (Mona)
I am not sure about that. But you might have a point when you say that JKR's comment refers to an earlier stage and that his joining the DE is some sort of "what-the-hell" reaction. Still, he must have been somewhat blind, because when Lily is targeted he does quite a lot to prevent her being killed. He goes to Voldemort and begs him to spare her, and he turns his back on Voldemort and goes to DD to make sure she is protected. If he had not been blinded in some way he would have realized from the beginning that Lily would be in risk of being targeted as a muggle-born witch and as an Order member.
mona amon - Jul 4, 2008 7:21 am (#2584 of 2617)
No, he might have been a bit blind as to what being a DE would actually involve, and he also probaby turned a blind eye to the fact that Lily was at risk. What I'm saying is that after her rejection of him, he could no longer be blind to the fact that Lily was totally opposed to the dark arts, DEs and You-Know-Who, and that he couldn't possibly impress her and get her back by signing up.
In short, he did not join the DE's in order to impress Lily.
haymoni - Jul 4, 2008 7:48 am (#2585 of 2617)
I don't think he was blind as to what being a DE would involve. I think there was this hatred of his home life. Going off to school to be with all wizards would solve his problems.
He fell in love with Lily. He lied to her from the first - "No, it doesn't matter." It did matter that she was Muggle-born and he knew it. He wasn't going to tell what looks like his first friend that she wasn't good enough.
Lily Evans was something very special and he was taken with her. He wanted his life and he wanted her. Since he didn't actually have her, other than a friend, perhaps he was unable to see that he couldn't have both.
wynnleaf - Jul 4, 2008 2:41 pm (#2586 of 2617)
He fell in love with Lily. He lied to her from the first - "No, it doesn't matter." It did matter that she was Muggle-born and he knew it. He wasn't going to tell what looks like his first friend that she wasn't good enough. (haymoni)
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence that Snape understood anything about bias against muggleborns prior to getting into Slytherin. Even his interest in being in Slytherin, which we see on the train, seems to be more of the "brains over brawn" kind of interest and young Snape mentions nothing about being interested in joining Slytherin due to a dislike of muggleborns. Snape is not interested in Petunia because she's a muggle. Sure, that's perfectly understandable since he's a wizard kid living in a muggle neighborhood and wishing to meet another magical kid, not a sour muggle girl.
There really is a big difference in the books between how the Wizarding World views muggleborns versus muggles. Only those with the pureblood elitist bias dislike muggleborn wizards and witches. But the Wizarding World as a whole, and even people like Arthur or Hagrid, are quite condescending toward muggles. Hagrid calls the Dursleys "Muggles" as though it's an insulting word. So young Snape having some sort of bias in favor of wizards over muggles is not only perfectly understandable, given his past, but also quite in line with the rest of the WW.
What we don't see is any evidence that young Snape had or knew of any problem for muggleborns within the Wizarding World.
haymoni - Jul 4, 2008 8:17 pm (#2587 of 2617)
I don't have DH in front of me, but doesn't he pause or something when he tells her it doesn't matter?
I took that to mean that it DID matter - or at least Snape felt it mattered.
mona amon - Jul 4, 2008 8:25 pm (#2588 of 2617)
It says that Severus hesitated before answering Lily's question about whether being muggle born would make a difference, so that means he was aware of the prejudice. But I don't think he was lying to her. He was trying to convince her, and probably himself as well, that it wouldn't make a difference because she had 'loads of magic'. It shows that he was willing to think indepenently and draw his own conclusions, rather than blindly follow the prejudices that have been instilled in him.
EDIT: Cross posted with Haymoni.
Julia H. - Jul 5, 2008 4:44 am (#2589 of 2617)
The idea seems to be that Snape was "bad," but not all-the-way "bad" because he loved Lily, that is, no one that can love can be all bad. I don't see it. (Soul Search)
I don't think Snape was simply good because he loved Lily but he was certainly better than someone who could not love (Tom Riddle) and I also think that his love for Lily made him a better person. Not at once of course but over time. I don't think it matters what kind of love existed between them while they were together. Strictly speaking, it must have been friendship, which on his part (and on his part only) turned into romantic love but he never confessed it to her (he was too young and/or shy). (I find it hard to believe that Lily did not notice it though...) That he loved Lily in a romantic way was indicated by his jealousy of James (notice that Harry is never jealous of anybody Hermione seems to be interested in). Since Lily probably did not love him in this way, it is not surprising that they did not hold hands (etc.) but his love could still be absolutely real. What counts is not what kind of love he felt but that this love was enough to make him risk his life for hers, to change his life for her sake. Does it matter whether he did it for his romantic love or for "just" a friend?
What I'm saying is that after her rejection of him, he could no longer be blind to the fact that Lily was totally opposed to the dark arts, DEs and You-Know-Who, and that he couldn't possibly impress her and get her back by signing up. (Mona)
This makes me wonder... How many times did we say Snape just was not able to "move on" after Lily? Perhaps his "signing up" was a (bad sort of) attempt to move on, since he saw he could no longer have her. Then, tragically, he had to see that it was not "moving on" but taking part in hurting her and the resulting guilt was the reason why he could not move on even after she had been dead for a long time.
In the beginning, Snape simply did what Dumbledore told him, doing his duty, serving his penance. (Quinn)
Certainly, Snape was not as good then as he was later but voluntarily trying to do something good, something he feels to be his duty, voluntarily serving his penance is a good thing. I agree with Mona that Snape's change by that time had already begun and I also agree that the word "returned" is very important. 15 years later, he was a better man, a better wizard, yes, and I think he could have become even better if he had lived. He became better because he did good things. Whether it was the "word of he law" or the "spirit of the law" in the beginning, it was because he did the right thing (at DD's orders) that doing the right thing became his nature over time and, I agree, especially after DD's death. (DD seems to have known what to expect Snape to do after his death.)
But by this point, Snape is the New Dumbledore. (Quinn)
I like this observation. I have thought Snape could have become a wise and very powerful wizard, even a leader, that is someone like Dumbledore, if he had had more time but perhaps you are right, in a way he is the "new Dumbledore" after DD's death. He is certainly DD's "heir" in a political sense (the "Prince").
On the question whether Snape loved "easily" or not: I agree that "readily" is a better word. I agree with those who say Snape needed guidance and attention in his teenage years (later as well) and that he did not get it from anyone. (Whatever he got from Lily, it was not the same as an adult's attention and guidance.) He admired Lily probably from the first moment he saw her but when she accepted him, he became attached to her for life (despite his bad choices, he did) and later his attachment to DD seems to be absolutely genuine. Yes, he is bound to him by promise and obligation but his obedience and loyalty to him seem to reflect more than just duty or promise. It does seem that DD is more like a father to him than his own father ever was. His real father did not like "anything much", i.e., Snape could not have received much acceptance from him. Many years later, DD accepts him and trusts him, even when he is already guilty and even though he knows Snape's past. DD protects him and he understands his motivation and the wounds of his soul and IMO this is what makes Snape go to extremes following his orders and accepting the terrible fate DD's plan assigns to him. Sure, he does make all those promises and he means to fulfill them but DD makes him do more than any of his ordinary soldiers, his requests to him go beyond what could be expected from people who do not personally care for the person asking them. All this implies (IMO) that he would have been ready to love and to follow an adult mentor even as a child and a teenager if there had been an adult interested in him. He may have even been looking for someone like this in his teenage years - too bad, at Hogwarts he did not find anyone else but older kid Lucius Malfoy, who may have accepted him as his "lapdog" (whatever that means.) I don't think that with proper guidance he would have become a cute little thing at any point in his life - nor does he become anything like that under DD's influence later - but he could have made his choices differently.
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2008 8:49 am (#2590 of 2617)
he did not find anyone else but older kid Lucius Malfoy, who may have accepted him as his "lapdog" (whatever that means.)
Julia, when the term "lapdog" is applied to a person, it is incredibly derogatory. The term usually refers to someone who is sort of "slavishly" devoted to another person, sort of "sucking up" to the person for little "crumbs" of attention, perhaps doing his bidding for favors of one kind or another (come to think of it, a lot more like Wormtail). Literally, a lapdog is a small, spoiled little pet. It must have really grated on Snape's pride to be called Lucius's "lapdog."
Solitaire
Quinn,
I think there's some misunderstanding about exactly what JKR has said about Snape's reasons and what she didn't say.
Here, I believe, is the relevant quote on July 26 on the Today Show:
Greta, 8: If Snape didn't love Lily, would he have still tried to protect Harry?
JKR: No. He Definitely wouldn't have done. He wouldn't have been remotely interested in what happened to this boy.
Note that the focus isn't on whether or not Snape would have stayed a faithful follower of LV, but as to whether or not he would have tried to protect Harry. Remember that Snape only started to focus on protecting Harry after Lily's death. So the point of this question has nothing to do with whether or not Snape would have become turned off by LV's actions and attempted to leave the Death Eaters if he hadn't been in love with Lily. The point of the question was if he would have protected Harry after the Potter's deaths if he hadn't loved Lily.
Here's another quote from the Bloomsbury Chat:
Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake
J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
So if Snape had it to do over, he wouldn't have become a Death Eater.
And another quote in the Bloomsbury Chat where JKR compares Harry to Snape.
Barbara: I was very disappointed to see harry use crucio and seem to enjoy it his failure to perform that kind of curse in the past has been a credit to his character why the change, and did harry later regret having enjoyed deliberately causing pain
J.K. Rowling: Harry is not, and never has been, a saint. Like Snape, he is flawed and mortal.
It doesn't sound to me like JKR is saying that Harry is inherently good while Snape is inherently bad, but rather, that they are both flawed.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2008 1:39 pm (#2562 of 2617)
After finding the quotes above, I did a little more searching and found this quote, which seems quite apropos to our discussion. It's from Carnegie Hall question and answer session:
I was really [?] the week after I finished the book. And I went to a chat room - not a chat room, what am I talking about? [laughter] I never go in chat rooms. I went onto a fan site because I was looking for questions to put up on my Web site, which is sometimes difficult. And I was so heartened to see that people on the message boards that people were still arguing about Snape. The book was out, and they were still arguing whether Snape was a good guy But that was really wonderful to me, because there's a question there, was Snape a good guy or not? In many ways he really wasn't. SoI haven't been deliberately misleading everyone all this time, when I say that he's a good guy. Because even though he did love and he loved very deeply and he was very brave, both qualities that I admire above anything else. He was bitter and he was vindictive... but right at the very very end, he did, as your question acknowledges, acheive a kind of peace together and I tried to show that in the epilogue.
Some key lines are: "was Snape a good guy or not? In many ways he really wasn't. SoI haven't been deliberately misleading everyone all this time, when I say that he's a good guy."
JKR would say that on the one hand Snape is not "good" because he is bitter and vindictive. On the other hand, she does call him "good" because of his deep love and bravery in acting on that love. In my opinion, that doesn't add up to Snape being bad at heart, or inherently bad, or a "bad seed" or whatever. He has bad aspects and good aspects. Like she said in comparison to Harry, Snape is flawed.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 1, 2008 2:44 pm (#2563 of 2617)
Thanks for putting that up there, Wynnleaf. I don't know how you guys keep track of all that stuff. I'm impressed!
But I don't think I have grossly misinterpreted the author's response. Obviously if Snape hadn't loved Lily he would never have gone to Dumbledore in the first place. He would have gone merrily on being a loyal Death Eater. I think it is well-established that his feelings for Lily were the only reason he sought Dumbledore out. Thus, no Lily, Snape sticks with his side.
But I was also considering other things she's said (these are from the Accio Quotes web site):
Lily might have grown to love Snape “if he had not loved Dark Magic so much.” - To me this is incorporated in the idea putting others before one's self.
Snape thought he could have his dark magic friends and Lily too. He never understood her aversion and thought she would be impressed. - I feel this is because he never really paid much attention to her objections. Again, putting others before one's self. He doesn't have to agree with her about Dark Magic, but at least acknowledge her views and disagree in principle. He never seems to do this, instead making it about James Potter rather than something he, himself, is involved with.
Barbara J - Jul 1, 2008 7:58 pm (#2564 of 2617)
De-lurking to say -- I think it's important to remember that the last two statements relating to Snape -- his inability to really understand Lily, and his love of dark magic -- are referring to teenaged Snape, and are not necessarily the way we should judge him later (just as, IMO, we are not intended to judge James solely by whether he was an obnoxious, self-absorbed teen).
Quinn Crockett - Jul 1, 2008 8:47 pm (#2565 of 2617)
That's true Barbara. But these are JKR's own words regarding the character she created. She does not qualify that any of these qualities ever changed, which... Well, wouldn't she have if they had? I mean, she also says that she doesn't see Snape as a hero because he is vindictive and a bully. So, I guess I don't think it really makes any difference whether we're talking about Snape as a teenager or an adult.
Dryleaves - Jul 1, 2008 11:15 pm (#2566 of 2617)
Quinn, one of your quotes is "Snape thought he could have his dark magic friends and Lily too. He never understood her aversion and thought she would be impressed." Are you saying that this never changed? The way I see it he realized that he could not have them both when Lily was targeted and then he did turn his back on those dark magic friends.
When it comes to "hero" I think she later agreed that Snape is an anti-hero. She might prefer more perfect heroes, but I am not sure she ever meant that Snape was essentially bad.
I think the thing with Snape is that he is both grand and petty at the same time. And it is very possible that a person could donate a kidney to a stranger and always take the last piece of chocolate from the box without asking first if anyone else would like to have it.
I do not think we are born as blank pages, but that does not mean we are born either basically good or basically evil. Just because you make a mistake does not mean that this is more true than your attempts to correct it. Just because you are not always good it does not mean that you are essentially bad. The way we turn out is probably the result of a very complex process where many different factors are relevant and some of them we have influence over, others not. For example Snape's action could have saved the Potters had there not been others who also made mistakes. Hmmm... I just think the "born bad" theory is a creepy one...
wynnleaf - Jul 2, 2008 6:14 am (#2567 of 2617)
But these are JKR's own words regarding the character she created. She does not qualify that any of these qualities ever changed, which... (Quinn)
But she was speaking within a certain context. You can't take her words and assume they fit Snape in any context.
When JKR said that Lily might have grown to love Snape if he hadn't loved the Dark Arts, you can't just assume that JKR would have also have said "if Lily was alive at age 36 she might have grown to love Snape if only he hadn't kept loving Dark Arts into his late 30s." JKR was answering a question about teenage Lily and whether she might have loved teenage Snape. It is only your assumption that JKR's comments about teenage Snape should also apply to late-30s Snape.
Same for this comment: Snape thought he could have his dark magic friends and Lily too. He never understood her aversion and thought she would be impressed.
JKR is clearly speaking in the context of teenage Snape. But it is only your assumption that Snape continued to not understand her aversion that makes you believe he was the same way into his late 30s. But JKR also said that contemporaneous Snape would never have become a DE if he had it to do over. That doesn't exactly fit with your idea that he continued into adulthood not understanding Lily's aversion to Dark Magic and thinking she would be impressed. Really, you know, a Snape this thick who couldn't comprehend that Lily wasn't and wouldn't be impressed, even into his late 30s, wouldn't be particularly believable, in my opinion. In any case, it doesn't fit with JKR's other comments.
I mean, she also says that she doesn't see Snape as a hero because he is vindictive and a bully. (Quinn)
No, she augmented her comments. Here's the one you're thinking of:
MV: Was Snape always intended to be a hero?
JKR: [sharp intake of breath] Is he a hero? You see I don't see him really as a hero.
MV: Really?
JKR: Yeh. He's spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book. But, was he brave? Yes, immensely.
Note, by the way, that JKR says that Snape continued to be spiteful and a bully (although she doesn't show this much in the last year or so), but not that he continued to love Dark Arts or that he continued to not understand that Lily wouldn't admire him as a DE, or any of those other teenage faults.
Then a little while later, JKR had this to say in the Bloomsbury Chat about Snape being a hero:
Lechicaneuronline: Do you think snape is a hero
J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love, and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!
Once again, the flaws JKR continues to attribute to adult Snape are not love of Dark Arts or that he'd not do anything for anyone outside of his love for Lily. The adult flaws JKR attributes to Snape are being "rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity."
By the way, I don't have these quotes memorized or something. I just look them up on the Accio Quote site. It took me all of about 10 seconds to look up the one above, between Google and "Find in this page" although I already knew it was in the Bloomsbury Chat interview. Once you know where to look, it's easy.
Julia H. - Jul 2, 2008 10:09 am (#2568 of 2617)
Exciting discussion, everyone!
I don't think people are born "inherently" bad or good. (Psychopaths may be exceptions.) I think people are born with certain genes that determine some personality traits but most or many of these can turn out to be good or bad. (Putting aside genetics, a brave person can become a bully or a hero; a money-minded person can become a great economist or someone for whom money is everything - or even both; a shy person can be modest and nice or can be someone who is not able to achieve anything in life etc.) Most people at least are born with a potential for good and a potential for bad and upbringing influences to what extent and how we can use our potentials. That is why education is important. If Snape was inherently bad, his becoming a DE would not be very interesting and his dying for the good cause would be completely incomprehensible. The same applies if Harry is inherently good. The idea of choices would not make much sense either. I do think Snape's family background has a lot to do with his bad choices and the fact that Harry did have loving parents (even if for only a short time) had a lot to do with his good choices.
We are the results of our genes, our upbringing/background and our choices but these things are not independent of each other but interwoven in many ways. One of the greatest things about Snape is that he is able to understand his bad choices and is able to change. (This change in itself contradicts any inherent goodness or badness.) What is more, he tries to put the very grave results of his very bad choices right, tries to "pay back his debt" - this is an extremely difficult task to do (as we see, too). Oh, yes, he has many flaws till the end and the tragic realization of his mistake means he will never become a harmonic or happy man but when he dies in the Shack, he is a man who is very different from the boy who many years before had joined the DE's.
I don't quite agree with the phrase that better parents should/could have counter-acted the "bad seed" aspect of him (this is what Uncle Vernon is allegedly trying to do) but they should have focused on and encouraged the good things in him (a teacher's help and guidance could have been useful as well). My children are currently reading OOTP and that gave me a chance to think about the teenage James, Sirius and Snape. After the OWL exam, after writing much more than the others, Snape is still reading the questions, he is still thinking (probably) about whether he has given the best possible answers or not. It is easy to tell that he is anxious to do very well at that exam. James and Sirius finish early and then confidently discuss how easy the exam was. The teenage James and Sirius are horrible (IMO) yet they "grow out" many of their flaws (not going into details now) and some of the reasons why they are able to do that is that they have self-confidence and they are successful among their peers, they find acceptance among adults and they seem to know themselves: their abilities, their goals. Snape is insecure, he does not have very good self-knowledge and he is ambitious but does not seem to know what to do (in a meaningful way) with his talents. I think the latter is very important. He is also lonely (even while he still has Lily, he may crave for a more general acceptance). The teenage trouble-makers will grow into law-abiding adults, while the teenager who is desperately trying to find a place for himself and is ready to follow rather than rebel will make the worst choice. And just one sentence about Snape's father: I just read the other day an article about the importance of the father's good opinion for a boy, how eagerly little boys watch their fathers to see if he approves of them or not and how this and other things related to parents and acceptance shape the values children will develop later.
As for "Snape would not have become good if he had not loved Lily": I think it is probably true but loving Lily was a part of Snape's personality and also something that shaped - and eventually changed - his personality. So a Snape who does not love Lily would be a rather different person. I guess if Harry had not loved his (dead) parents, he would have been a different person (and probably a not so good person) as well. By the way, it is remarkable that Snape was able to love at all and to love so deeply apparently without first experiencing similar love from someone else and even after the psychologically destructive experiences he must have had among the DE's. If anything, that kind of ability to love seems to be "inherent" in him.
Soul Search - Jul 2, 2008 10:48 am (#2569 of 2617)
I am not sure of the redeeming "love" Snape had for Lily. The idea seems to be that Snape was "bad," but not all-the-way "bad" because he loved Lily, that is, no one that can love can be all bad. I don't see it.
What kind of "love" was there between them or what kind of "love" did Snape hold for Lily? Canon gives us not the slightest hint of romantic love. There were opportunities: they could have touched or held hands as children. Snape could of offered Lily his had as they left the Sirius/James compartment on the Hogwarts Express. A snogging scene could have been inserted. Snape could have walked over to Lily in the "worst memory" scene. Something. Anything. But there was nothing.
At best, they spent time together as kids. They were separated by house at Hogwarts so their time together would have been limited, and, apparently, declined with time. They associated with very different groups at Hogwarts, so would have had to sneak off to be together.
In the scene outside the Gryffindor tower Lily only uses the word "friendship." Lily's "love" for Snape was not strong enough so she would excuse his associates and Death Eater path. Snape's "love" for Lily was not, at that time, strong enough so he would give up his Death Eater path. It seems Snape's "love" for Lily only really manifested itself after she was dead.
As I recall, the word "love" only appears after the Dumbledore/Hilltop scene. Bit late for romance since she was already married and had Harry. And later, she was dead; way late for romance.
So, given the missed canon opportunities to show a romantic love, we are to believe there was only a friendship kind of love between them. And, Snape was driven to join Dumbledore and protect Harry because of his friendship for Lily. Note I didn't say he turned "good." He didn't. He just agreed to protect Harry. Snape may have even kept his relationships with closet Death Eaters, say Lucius Malfoy, as long as it didn't conflict with his protecting Harry for Dumbledore. (Narcissa knew the way to Spinners End.)
Snape "loving" Lily enough to join Dumbledore is a major plot point, yet I have never felt the motivation was properly developed.
PeskyPixie - Jul 2, 2008 11:06 am (#2570 of 2617)
While I don't believe that who we will be as adults is determined from the moment we enter the world, there is also a natural (genetic?) personality we are born with. I have spoken of my childhood 'friend' on a different thread. We were together since we were tiny babies and from birth we had incredibly different personalities and as a result one of us was loved by others much more than the other. Unfair, but true. Tom, Sev and Harry may well have also been naturally very different as infants.
All three were unloved: Tom felt abandoned by his mother, Severus was neglected by his parents, Harry had no positive feedback about his parents until eleven years of age.
Still, we don't see many similarities between them as kids. Severus seems confused, mixed up. He's a kid who will love very easily if given a grown-up who takes the time to be with him, learn about him and guide him.
Harry, despite growing up in a cupboard, does not seem at all bitter and twisted. He longs to 'escape' (as does young Severus) but does not desire to control everything that moves. He is then surrounded by good people upon entry to the Magical world (i.e. the 'bad guys' irritate him from their first meeting and he forms friendships with the 'good guys'. Luckily he does not encounter a 'good guy' like James or Sirius at Madam Malkin's.)
Tom is different. Combined with his great talent and loneliness is the desire to make others suffer for his misfortune. We don't see this trait in the other two and I think it fair to say that he naturally (genetically) possesses this will to dominate others.
However, nurture plays an incredible role in the person we grow up to become. I think Tom's nature could only be shaped positively by a parent who is not blinded by their love of this handsome, bright boy and can see the parts of his character which need work. I find it poor logic to say that Merope's love alone would have cured him of his Dark Lord fever. He is in need of strong parenting.
Harry naturally possesses a type of 'goodness' (BTW, 'good' does not equal 'perfection'). He doesn't think twice about risking his own life to save that creep Malfoy! I certainly would not have done that, and I am amazed by the courage of a boy who is able to do so without a lengthy debate with himself.
Snape is a normal kid with a crummy upbringing and it shows in his personality. He also happens to be bright and unpopular - not a good combination for someone with no parental guidance. I don't blame him for his interest in the Dark Arts. Heck, I'd love to learn about them myself! However, from a mixture of nature and nurture, I would never want to use them on others or join a hate group in order to fit in and show off my knowledge and talent. Snape does not have a strong enough character in his youth to overcome temptation and he pays for his mistakes with his life.
ETA: Regarding 'love', I think canon clearly indicates that young Severus has a whopping crush on Lily Evans, however, he is too shy and awkward to express his love to her. Oh, and teenage boys never made much sense to me. I don't think Severus' choice to not drop his Dark friends says anything about his love for Lily. He is very immature and only sees that "James Potter is cool and popular and a jock, that's why the chicks love him. Just wait till I get my membership skull and snake tattoo. Lily won't be able to keep her eyes off me!" Of course, not all males teens are like this, but many are controlled by their hormones and young Sev is no different from them.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 2, 2008 11:16 am (#2571 of 2617)
Are you saying that this never changed? - Dryleaves
No, I agree with you that he did finally - once it was far too late - come to understand what Lily had been trying to get through to him all along. I had meant to illustrate that Snape was so caught up in his own little mindset (self before others) that he was completely unable to even acknowledge that maybe Lily - his "best friend" - had a point.
I'm not sure I agree that he ever learned to put others before himself, though. While he did so in "the letter of the law" kind of way, I personally don't really have a sense that in "the spirit of the law" he really meant it.
What I mean is that while it's true that he did protect people (even those he may not have particularly liked), put himself in harm's way as a spy, etc, my sense is that he was doing all of these things more out of a sense of obligation, a promise (a "contract" if you will) to Dumbledore than any genuine "desire" to "do good" (for lack of a better term).
Of course, having said that, my sense is also that there was genuine affection between him and Dumbledore, so his sense of duty and honor to Dumbledore could carry a bit more weight than an ordinary Commander-Foot Soldier sort of relationship.
ETA: Soul Search, very sound points.
He's a kid who will love very easily if given a grown-up who takes the time to be with him, learn about him and guide him. - Pesky Pixie
Hm... Personally, I don't see this at all. He is already quite hardened by the age of 9.
PeskyPixie - Jul 2, 2008 11:52 am (#2572 of 2617)
Quinn, as someone who has seen the work done with so-called 'hardened' kids of nine years, Severus shows every sign of wanting to fit in and be loved but lacks the knowledge of how to do so. Not all kids are cuddly young things (for a variety of reasons), but they are still children, able to learn and grow if only there is some adult who will take the time to guide them.
ETA: "Love very easily" does not mean that he'll be all snuggly in a few hours. Severus is a serious kid by nature, which is fine. A few months of encouraging his intelligence, sharing in his interests, listening to his little stories, accepting him, giving him positive guidance, would earn his affection. He does not seem to be beyond this and it would probably have helped him out when he made important decisions as a young man.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 2, 2008 12:04 pm (#2573 of 2617)
Well, yeah. Everyone wants to fit in, whatever their situation. What I don't see in the Snape character is "He's a kid who will love very easily" (I understood what you meant). Obviously it's perfectly fine that you do, Pesky. I just don't happen to agree.
PeskyPixie - Jul 2, 2008 12:10 pm (#2574 of 2617)
Edited Jul 2, 2008 1:17 pm
It's not really a matter of agreeing with a point or not, Quinn. I just don't see the logic behind your point of view. Could you perhaps elaborate why you feel that by the age of nine Severus is beyond being a 'normal' child who would be able to be influenced by and feel a childlike love for a parent figure? I'd really like to understand your point of view.
ETA: Here's my reasoning: Without going into too much detail, I've personally seen cases where neglected kids from highly dysfunctional homes, who were said to be beyond help and destined for Juvenile hall, were able to turn around their lives and become wonderful young people when a lot of effort and patience was put into them. Child Sev seems quite tame compared to what I've seen.
ETA: Quinn, as I said, please elaborate so I can understand your point of view.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 2, 2008 12:43 pm (#2575 of 2617)
Edited Jul 2, 2008 1:13 pm
Could you perhaps elaborate why you feel that by the age of nine Severus is beyond being a 'normal' child who would be able to be influenced by and feel a childlike love for a parent figure?
Yeah, that's not what I said at all.
ETA: Yes, Pesky. Since you asked so nicely, I will elaborate.
I think we need to be extremely cautious about injecting our own experiences into our interpretation of the author's intent. It's normal, it's natural, and it determines whether or not the story, as a whole, "speaks to us". But I still think we should always try to keep a critical eye.
There is nothing in the story to indicate that Snape was "a kid who will love very easily". On the contrary, we are told that he only ever loved one person his entire life.
wynnleaf - Jul 2, 2008 1:25 pm (#2576 of 2617)
I don't know that I'd say that Snape would love "easily" but I do think he was able to love "readily" those who gave him time, attention, acceptance, etc.
Just look at Lily. As soon as they meet and she accepts him as a friend, Snape cares for her. At nine years old.
But even later, who do we see after Lily who appears to give Snape time, acceptance, willingness to mentor him etc? The only person we actually know of was Dumbledore and he does seem to have affection for Dumbledore. Since that happened when Snape was an adult, or at least a young adult, it seems just as possible that he could have developed a strong affection for an adult who took the time to mentor him while he was a teenager. However, my impression is that there was no such adult, at least at the school, primarily because I find it amazing to think that even after the Prank incident, no one of the staff appeared to be making sure that Sirius and the other Marauders stopped their harassment of Snape. After all, the Marauders do not seem particularly concerned about attacking Snape right out in public in the Worst Memory scene. even though the trouble with the Prank had only occurred months before. So I don't think there was feeling among the students that any staff member -- Slughorn, for instance -- was watching out for Snape at Hogwarts.
And this is why I think Snape would find it easy to get caught up with Voldemort. If some of the Death Eaters had seemed to offer him acceptance, appreciation for his talents, and so on, I think he'd gravitate toward them quickly. And if that happened earlier among the Slytherin students like Avery or Mulciber, then it makes sense that Snape would gravitate toward them as students.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 2, 2008 2:12 pm (#2577 of 2617)
As soon as they meet and she accepts him as a friend, Snape cares for her. At nine years old. - Wynnleaf
I actually think that for Severus, his love for Lily could be qualified in many ways. But I think mostly she was his touchstone. As long as he had her in his life, he knew he was "okay" as it were. I don't think it ever really occurred to him that there may come a time when she might no longer be there, which may be why he never really considered her objections to his "dark arts friends" as a sort of tacit ultimatum about their relationship.
Of course, once she did end the friendship, he really was something of a jellyfish, carried along on the tide of his other, perhaps less intimate, relationships with the future Death Eaters.
Dryleaves - Jul 3, 2008 5:52 am (#2578 of 2617)
I'm not sure I agree that he ever learned to put others before himself, though. While he did so in "the letter of the law" kind of way, I personally don't really have a sense that in "the spirit of the law" he really meant it. What I mean is that while it's true that he did protect people (even those he may not have particularly liked), put himself in harm's way as a spy, etc, my sense is that he was doing all of these things more out of a sense of obligation, a promise (a "contract" if you will) to Dumbledore than any genuine "desire" to "do good" (for lack of a better term). (Quinn)
The way I see it Snape protects Harry because Lily died protecting her son against Voldemort. He protects him so that she did not die in vain and one way to do this is to fight Voldemort, in Snape's case by being a spy. He does this for Lily, who is dead and therefore completely unavailable to him, and I think he sincerely wants to do "the right thing" in order to undo as much as possible of what he did wrong. So perhaps he does what he does more because he wants to do good, than because he wants to be good. And that is maybe what you mean by "the spirit of the law"?
It may be a question of a sense of obligation, but I would not call it a "contract", and I think the sense of obligation is primarily towards Lily, but later also towards DD, but not because it is a contract, but because he has, as you write, a genuine affection for him. A lot of ethical theories are about obligation, so I do not think "obligation" in itself is something that makes an act less good.
I think Snape has the result in mind all the time: Harry must stay alive. His motivation is his love for Lily. In this sense I do not think he misses the spirit of the law.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 3, 2008 7:06 am (#2579 of 2617)
I'm not sure I agree that he ever learned to put others before himself, though. While he did so in "the letter of the law" kind of way, I personally don't really have a sense that in "the spirit of the law" he really meant it. What I mean is that while it's true that he did protect people (even those he may not have particularly liked), put himself in harm's way as a spy, etc, my sense is that he was doing all of these things more out of a sense of obligation, a promise (a "contract" if you will) to Dumbledore than any genuine "desire" to "do good" (for lack of a better term). Quinn Crockett
I realize I can't argue against gut feeling but...
Dumbledore through the portrait tells Snape that he has to do certain things for appearances only. He has to tell Voldemort when Harry is really leaving. We get the impression he has to let Charity die because to do anything differently jeopardizes his effectiveness as a spy. It seems to me that the letter of the law is follow Dumbledore's instructions regarding Harry.
Saving Lupin was not in Dumbledore's instructions. If anything people might have to die in order to save Harry. I guess I'm just questioning how you might think that saving Lupin isn't the spirit of the law.
wynnleaf - Jul 3, 2008 8:57 am (#2580 of 2617)
Hard to say sometimes the difference between the letter and the spirit of the law.
For instance, Harry saves Draco even though he thoroughly dislikes Draco. Why? It's not because he cares about Draco. Presumably, it's Harry's "saving people" thing, in that he can't stand by and watch while someone dies if he could possibly save them. But Snape says later in life (during the time of HBP), that he also cannot stand by and watch someone die if he can save them. Harry dislikes Draco and saves him anyway, without any obligation to do so. Snape dislikes Lupin, yet risks his cover and life to attempt to save him even though through his obligation to Dumbledore, he should do nothing to jeopardize his cover. I don't really see much ethical difference in the two actions, even though they are, of course, different situations.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 3, 2008 10:04 am (#2581 of 2617)
I agree that by around the time of HBP Snape had come to understand "the spirit of the law" and had learned to act within the "spirit of the law" on his own. Under Dumbledore's tutelage, he had been practicing this for so long, perhaps without really even knowing it (he was simply doing what Dumbledore told him), that by this point that he was able to make certain decisions without first being told what he should do.
Through the Prince's Tale memories, we see that HBP is really the first time where Dumbledore treats Snape much more as an equal - a co-conspirator, even - than he ever had before. He knows he is dying and that Snape must be ready to take over the very moment that time comes. Really, the fate of Wizarding Britain comes to rest almost entirely on Snape.
When he sees Lupin about to be attacked, Snape instinctively makes a move to protect him, despite his previous personal dislike for the man. But by this point, Snape is the New Dumbledore. He has honed his reflexes to protect and defend whenever it is within his power to do so, and without a second thought. Snape, and Snape alone, knows the Master Plan. However, he must maintain the appearance of being the Old Snape. Though he has always been able to keep this façade for the sake of Voldemort, the fact that Snape now genuinely cares for others - especially Dumbledore - is an incredible disadvantage. As Snape, himself, instructs Harry during the Occlumency lessons, one's emotions are one's own worst enemy when it comes to Legilimency.
But it took 15 years for Snape to get here. At the beginning of his service to Dumbledore, personally I can't see Snape going out of his way to save someone like Lupin in a similar situation. In the beginning, Snape simply did what Dumbledore told him, doing his duty, serving his penance. This is just my sense of it, though.
mona amon - Jul 4, 2008 5:22 am (#2582 of 2617)
But it took 15 years for Snape to get here. (Quinn)
Of course I can't prove it, but my own opinion is that he got there pretty soon after his hilltop encounter with Dumbledore. If people can be classified as 'inherently good' or 'inherently bad', I feel that Snape definitely belongs to the 'inherently good' category. Dumbledore seems to feel the same way, because he tells Harry that Severus 'returned' to the right side. This word is significant. It implies that he regarded him as a basically good person who has gone astray, a sort of Prodigal Son or Lost Sheep who has now come back to the fold. Doesn't the very fact that someone can change for the better mean that they are basically good?
So this is how I think it was. Snape, a basically good kid, is strongly tempted to join an evil organisation, and succumbs to this temptation. Once there, he suppresses whatever is good in him, and finally reaches the point where he becomes truly evil, with no moral sense or compassion or regard for the lives of others. Then Lily is targetted by Voldemort, and for the first time in his life he experiences what it is to be the victim of evil. But of course on the windy hilltop he is only a small part of the way towards reform, as he still has no regard for the life of anyone other than Lily. But I feel he must have started changing even as early as the year before the Potters were killed, when he was spying for Dumbledore. He was doing it to save Lily's life, but I'm sure that once he had turned his back on Voldemort, the inherently good side of him, which he had suppressed for so long, was given a chance to grow. And that's what makes it so easy for him to follow Dumbledore's orders. He seems to get a kick out of protecting people and doing important tasks for the good side. Just my opinion of course.
Snape thought he could have his dark magic friends and Lily too. He never understood her aversion and thought she would be impressed. (J.K.Rowling)
The way I see it he realized that he could not have them both when Lily was targeted and then he did turn his back on those dark magic friends. (Dryleaves)
I cannot believe that when Snape actually joined the DE's, he was still trying to impress Lily. No one can be that blind. I think JKR's words refer to an earlier stage, before the worst memory and Lily's rejection of him. At this stage he probably thought he could impress Lily by joining this big, powerful gang, and fails to hear what she's trying to tell him. But once she rejects him I think he realises that it is final, and that is why he never tries to get back with her after that. So, when he actually signs up, I do not think it was about Lily any more. His reasoning must have been "Ok. I cannot have Lily, at least let me join Big V and get appreciated for my skills."
Dryleaves - Jul 4, 2008 5:57 am (#2583 of 2617)
No one can be that blind. (Mona)
I am not sure about that. But you might have a point when you say that JKR's comment refers to an earlier stage and that his joining the DE is some sort of "what-the-hell" reaction. Still, he must have been somewhat blind, because when Lily is targeted he does quite a lot to prevent her being killed. He goes to Voldemort and begs him to spare her, and he turns his back on Voldemort and goes to DD to make sure she is protected. If he had not been blinded in some way he would have realized from the beginning that Lily would be in risk of being targeted as a muggle-born witch and as an Order member.
mona amon - Jul 4, 2008 7:21 am (#2584 of 2617)
No, he might have been a bit blind as to what being a DE would actually involve, and he also probaby turned a blind eye to the fact that Lily was at risk. What I'm saying is that after her rejection of him, he could no longer be blind to the fact that Lily was totally opposed to the dark arts, DEs and You-Know-Who, and that he couldn't possibly impress her and get her back by signing up.
In short, he did not join the DE's in order to impress Lily.
haymoni - Jul 4, 2008 7:48 am (#2585 of 2617)
I don't think he was blind as to what being a DE would involve. I think there was this hatred of his home life. Going off to school to be with all wizards would solve his problems.
He fell in love with Lily. He lied to her from the first - "No, it doesn't matter." It did matter that she was Muggle-born and he knew it. He wasn't going to tell what looks like his first friend that she wasn't good enough.
Lily Evans was something very special and he was taken with her. He wanted his life and he wanted her. Since he didn't actually have her, other than a friend, perhaps he was unable to see that he couldn't have both.
wynnleaf - Jul 4, 2008 2:41 pm (#2586 of 2617)
He fell in love with Lily. He lied to her from the first - "No, it doesn't matter." It did matter that she was Muggle-born and he knew it. He wasn't going to tell what looks like his first friend that she wasn't good enough. (haymoni)
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence that Snape understood anything about bias against muggleborns prior to getting into Slytherin. Even his interest in being in Slytherin, which we see on the train, seems to be more of the "brains over brawn" kind of interest and young Snape mentions nothing about being interested in joining Slytherin due to a dislike of muggleborns. Snape is not interested in Petunia because she's a muggle. Sure, that's perfectly understandable since he's a wizard kid living in a muggle neighborhood and wishing to meet another magical kid, not a sour muggle girl.
There really is a big difference in the books between how the Wizarding World views muggleborns versus muggles. Only those with the pureblood elitist bias dislike muggleborn wizards and witches. But the Wizarding World as a whole, and even people like Arthur or Hagrid, are quite condescending toward muggles. Hagrid calls the Dursleys "Muggles" as though it's an insulting word. So young Snape having some sort of bias in favor of wizards over muggles is not only perfectly understandable, given his past, but also quite in line with the rest of the WW.
What we don't see is any evidence that young Snape had or knew of any problem for muggleborns within the Wizarding World.
haymoni - Jul 4, 2008 8:17 pm (#2587 of 2617)
I don't have DH in front of me, but doesn't he pause or something when he tells her it doesn't matter?
I took that to mean that it DID matter - or at least Snape felt it mattered.
mona amon - Jul 4, 2008 8:25 pm (#2588 of 2617)
It says that Severus hesitated before answering Lily's question about whether being muggle born would make a difference, so that means he was aware of the prejudice. But I don't think he was lying to her. He was trying to convince her, and probably himself as well, that it wouldn't make a difference because she had 'loads of magic'. It shows that he was willing to think indepenently and draw his own conclusions, rather than blindly follow the prejudices that have been instilled in him.
EDIT: Cross posted with Haymoni.
Julia H. - Jul 5, 2008 4:44 am (#2589 of 2617)
The idea seems to be that Snape was "bad," but not all-the-way "bad" because he loved Lily, that is, no one that can love can be all bad. I don't see it. (Soul Search)
I don't think Snape was simply good because he loved Lily but he was certainly better than someone who could not love (Tom Riddle) and I also think that his love for Lily made him a better person. Not at once of course but over time. I don't think it matters what kind of love existed between them while they were together. Strictly speaking, it must have been friendship, which on his part (and on his part only) turned into romantic love but he never confessed it to her (he was too young and/or shy). (I find it hard to believe that Lily did not notice it though...) That he loved Lily in a romantic way was indicated by his jealousy of James (notice that Harry is never jealous of anybody Hermione seems to be interested in). Since Lily probably did not love him in this way, it is not surprising that they did not hold hands (etc.) but his love could still be absolutely real. What counts is not what kind of love he felt but that this love was enough to make him risk his life for hers, to change his life for her sake. Does it matter whether he did it for his romantic love or for "just" a friend?
What I'm saying is that after her rejection of him, he could no longer be blind to the fact that Lily was totally opposed to the dark arts, DEs and You-Know-Who, and that he couldn't possibly impress her and get her back by signing up. (Mona)
This makes me wonder... How many times did we say Snape just was not able to "move on" after Lily? Perhaps his "signing up" was a (bad sort of) attempt to move on, since he saw he could no longer have her. Then, tragically, he had to see that it was not "moving on" but taking part in hurting her and the resulting guilt was the reason why he could not move on even after she had been dead for a long time.
In the beginning, Snape simply did what Dumbledore told him, doing his duty, serving his penance. (Quinn)
Certainly, Snape was not as good then as he was later but voluntarily trying to do something good, something he feels to be his duty, voluntarily serving his penance is a good thing. I agree with Mona that Snape's change by that time had already begun and I also agree that the word "returned" is very important. 15 years later, he was a better man, a better wizard, yes, and I think he could have become even better if he had lived. He became better because he did good things. Whether it was the "word of he law" or the "spirit of the law" in the beginning, it was because he did the right thing (at DD's orders) that doing the right thing became his nature over time and, I agree, especially after DD's death. (DD seems to have known what to expect Snape to do after his death.)
But by this point, Snape is the New Dumbledore. (Quinn)
I like this observation. I have thought Snape could have become a wise and very powerful wizard, even a leader, that is someone like Dumbledore, if he had had more time but perhaps you are right, in a way he is the "new Dumbledore" after DD's death. He is certainly DD's "heir" in a political sense (the "Prince").
On the question whether Snape loved "easily" or not: I agree that "readily" is a better word. I agree with those who say Snape needed guidance and attention in his teenage years (later as well) and that he did not get it from anyone. (Whatever he got from Lily, it was not the same as an adult's attention and guidance.) He admired Lily probably from the first moment he saw her but when she accepted him, he became attached to her for life (despite his bad choices, he did) and later his attachment to DD seems to be absolutely genuine. Yes, he is bound to him by promise and obligation but his obedience and loyalty to him seem to reflect more than just duty or promise. It does seem that DD is more like a father to him than his own father ever was. His real father did not like "anything much", i.e., Snape could not have received much acceptance from him. Many years later, DD accepts him and trusts him, even when he is already guilty and even though he knows Snape's past. DD protects him and he understands his motivation and the wounds of his soul and IMO this is what makes Snape go to extremes following his orders and accepting the terrible fate DD's plan assigns to him. Sure, he does make all those promises and he means to fulfill them but DD makes him do more than any of his ordinary soldiers, his requests to him go beyond what could be expected from people who do not personally care for the person asking them. All this implies (IMO) that he would have been ready to love and to follow an adult mentor even as a child and a teenager if there had been an adult interested in him. He may have even been looking for someone like this in his teenage years - too bad, at Hogwarts he did not find anyone else but older kid Lucius Malfoy, who may have accepted him as his "lapdog" (whatever that means.) I don't think that with proper guidance he would have become a cute little thing at any point in his life - nor does he become anything like that under DD's influence later - but he could have made his choices differently.
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2008 8:49 am (#2590 of 2617)
he did not find anyone else but older kid Lucius Malfoy, who may have accepted him as his "lapdog" (whatever that means.)
Julia, when the term "lapdog" is applied to a person, it is incredibly derogatory. The term usually refers to someone who is sort of "slavishly" devoted to another person, sort of "sucking up" to the person for little "crumbs" of attention, perhaps doing his bidding for favors of one kind or another (come to think of it, a lot more like Wormtail). Literally, a lapdog is a small, spoiled little pet. It must have really grated on Snape's pride to be called Lucius's "lapdog."
Solitaire
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Julia H. - Jul 8, 2008 8:28 am (#2591 of 2617)
Thanks, Solitaire for the explanation. I understood that it was a derogatory term. What we don't know is what Sirius exactly referred to but it must have been some kind of relationship at school between Lucius and Snape. It may not have been exactly as Sirius described it but Lucius was a prefect, who greeted newly arrived Snape in Slytherin. I don't think at that time there could be any sort of real friendship between the proud and rich pure-blood kid and a poor half-blood kid, who was four years younger, but I can imagine as a prefect, Lucius may have been a bit Percy-like, feeling his own importance and also condescending and he may have protected new-comer Snape (who must have been a bit out-of-place among all those wealthy pure-bloods, especially in the beginning) in return for some admiration. After all, where would Snape have seen anybody like the Malfoys before he went to Hogwarts? So I think the gesture with which Lucius greets him just when he is being separated from his only friend and then Sirius's comment and the other references to some kind of relationship between the Malfoys and Snape suggest that Lucius, as an older kid, may have had some influence on Snape - too bad this influence was not replaced by the better influence of a teacher.
BTW after Sirius's derogatory comment, Snape showed remarkable self-control by merely informing Sirius that he had been seen on the platform. (Well, then he called him a coward, that's true.)
Quinn Crockett - Jul 8, 2008 11:23 am (#2592 of 2617)
After all, where would Snape have seen anybody like the Malfoys before he went to Hogwarts? - Julia
I don't think we should assume that little Severus had never been in contact with "anybody like the Malfoys". His mother, after all, was a witch - albeit apparently one afraid to use magic to defend herself**. His manner of dress when he first meets the Evans sisters seems a pretty clear indication that, despite living right among Muggles, he has no idea how to dress like them. True, it could be argued that his dress is more a sign of his parents neglect than ignorance of Muggle ways. But I think it's at least an equal combination of the two.
Eileen Prince and Severus would surely have come across the Malfoys, or others like them, at the bank or the Leaky Cauldron during regular shopping trips. Then again, since Eileen was apparently married to some sort of tyrannical version of Darren Stevens, the Snape's may well have had to make do with shopping locally.
Actually, now that I think about it, it seems strange that the pure-blood Malfoys, who make it a point to keep up on everyone else's lineage, would not have known that Snape had a Muggle father.
* This may go a long way to explaining Severus's perfectionism with regard to his own spells, intelligence, etc. And his sensitivity to the word "coward".
Solitaire - Jul 8, 2008 3:16 pm (#2593 of 2617)
Didn't Sirius or Remus say that Snape came into Hogwarts knowing more dark spells and curses (not exact wording) than any other kid? Snape's penchant for the Dark Arts combined with his excellent marks might have caught Prefect Lucius Malfoy's attention. Lucius is also the arrogant kind of person, I think, who would have chosen a young Slytherin and distinguished him by preferential treatment. It would have made him feel important to have someone nearby who looked up to him.
Then, too, consider Umbridge's comment, during her observation of Snape's class, that Lucius always speaks highly of Snape, and Draco's comment that indicates his dad would support Snape for Headmaster. I think Sirius is referring to a long-time friendship (or at least, the appearance of one) between Snape and Lucius. Certainly Narcissa feels comfortable enough to ask Snape to help Draco.
Quinn, I thought the same about Snape's Muggle attire. While he is certainly poorly dressed, are his get-ups any worse than some of the others that Wizards have been described as wearing? Possibly his mother doesn't know how to dress like a Muggle, and his father obviously doesn't care how he looks.
Solitaire
megfox* - Jul 11, 2008 5:25 am (#2594 of 2617)
I almost never have anything to say on this thread, but I am firmly in the camp of "Snape's attire is a neglect issue". Considering the fact that his father obviously doesn't like magic, would he have married a witch who didn't know how to dress like a Muggle? He seems to be the kind of person who would be very annoyed by that kind of thing.
Julia H. - Jul 11, 2008 10:18 am (#2595 of 2617)
"Snape's attire is a neglect issue" (megfox)
Yes. Even if his mother does not know how Muggles dress, she may certainly notice that her son is wearing a coat large enough for a man. Besides, the father knows it for sure how muggle children are supposed to dress and if a father cares for his son, he will be interested in what he looks like. (And in this case, it is not about the latest fashion.) Also, a child who has a good relationship with his parents will complain if other children make fun of his clothes. (You should have heard my daughter when she explained to us that NOBODY wore plain white or plain pink T-shirts.) And it is not the only sign of neglect. There is also the description: like a plant kept in the dark. It clearly means he is not getting what he needs, not only (or in the first place) in terms of clothes but in terms of care.
Eileen Prince and Severus would surely have come across the Malfoys, or others like them, at the bank or the Leaky Cauldron during regular shopping trips. (Quinn)
Oh, well, yes. (The bank seems to be less likely though...) OK, he may have accidentally seen rich pure-bloods but associating with them is another thing.
Actually, now that I think about it, it seems strange that the pure-blood Malfoys, who make it a point to keep up on everyone else's lineage, would not have known that Snape had a Muggle father.
I guess Malfoy probably knows Snape is a half-blood. (He does not seem to have made a secret of it and the Malfoys do consider lineage important.) It may have been Snape's knowledge of the Dark Arts and his ability to invent spells (did not Harry like most of those spells?) that helped him gain some respect or acceptance among Slytherin students, which he - a poor half-blood kid, not even good at Quidditch, - would hardly have got otherwise. (Mere academic achievement might not have been enough.) As Solitaire says, prefect Lucius may have distinguished him because of this knowledge and because Snape may have looked up to him more than other rich pure-blood kids (who did not find Lucius special) and Snape did so precisely because Lucius was so different from what he usually saw in Spinner's End (a "real" wizard from a "real" wizard family) and maybe because subconsciously he was looking for a father figure he could respect and who would appreciate him but he did not find one. Lucius must have liked being looked up to and feeling important. It is a question when this relationship turned into friendship (if it was ever a real friendship). Malfoy left Hogwarts a few years after Snape started. (Hm. Did they meet again as DE's or before Snape joined up?)
I agree that child Snape seeing his witch mother being afraid of his muggle father might be at the root of a few things.
PeskyPixie - Jul 11, 2008 7:17 pm (#2596 of 2617)
" ... child Snape seeing his witch mother being afraid of his muggle father might be at the root of a few things." -Julia
Perhaps he is also disgusted with his mother for fearing a Muggle? (Even if Eileen and Tobias both argue, in OotP we see Eileen cowering during her husband's tirade.)
Solitaire - Jul 11, 2008 8:28 pm (#2597 of 2617)
I understand Merope's fear of her father and brother. They were completely unbalanced, and they wielded wands and used them to hurt people. I'd like to know more about the relationship between Snape's mother and father, though, wouldn't you? Why was she fearful of him ... if she was? As a witch, she could have done any number of things to hurt him ... or stop him from hurting her. Why was he abusive, if he was? Did he know she was a witch when he married her? If not, is that why he was upset?
I think Jo needs to fill us in on a few things. How about a little "index card" on Snape?
Solitaire
Julia H. - Jul 13, 2008 9:31 am (#2598 of 2617)
Why was she fearful of him ... if she was? (Solitaire)
Solitaire, this and your other questions are exactly my questions. The only thing that seems to be sure to me is that she was fearful of him. Tobias seems to have had some power over her despite her magic. Was it something psychological? Was she somehow unable to defend herself becasue of some psychological (battered wife?) syndrome?
Did he know she was a witch when he married her?
Good question... hm... he did not like magic. Could it be another case of love potion with the difference that Tobias (unlike Tom Riddle Sr.) did not leave when he found it out? Then again, it is more understandable that Merope was desperate to get away from home and to marry that handsome young man but why would Eileen have wanted to marry Tobias if he did not even love her? Speculation...
BTW, the law of secrecy may result in a lot of marriages where the muggle partner finds out about the wizarding world only after (or at) the wedding.
Yes, Jo could fill us in... or, until she does, we could have more threads of this "write your own version" type and then we could invent our explanations.
Solitaire - Jul 13, 2008 10:25 am (#2599 of 2617)
Love potion ... it makes me wonder if Eileen Prince, like her son, was a "dab hand at potions," to use Slughorn's expression. If she was, then perhaps she passed her talent to her son. Just an idea ...
Solitaire
PeskyPixie - Jul 20, 2008 5:37 pm (#2600 of 2617)
Eek, Soli! I guess I could understand using a love potion to lure a hunk like Tom Riddle Sr., but Tobias??? Eewwwwwww, gross!
The read-along got me to thinking that Snape could easily have become Harry's 'Uncle Sev' (in private, away from prying Death Eater eyes, of course)! He could have become a surrogate parent to his love's orphaned child.
On a nastier note, for someone with a vindictive streak like Sev, it would have been sheer pleasure to have Harry on his side rather than with his father's mates. If he can't have Lily he can at least be her son's mentor and slowly turn him against his own father and godfather. Could you imagine how triumphant he could have been in PoA? "Ha ha, Black and Lupin! Your best mate's son only believes the worst of you!"
Hmmm, then maybe Snape is not too manipulative and calculating in his anger towards Harry. It is purely emotional, of the hissy fit variety.
Julia H. - Jul 21, 2008 4:29 am (#2601 of 2617)
Well, he could have been lots of things if he had been a different Snape... I still don't think this Snape with his guilty secret would have been able to play "Uncle Sev" to Harry.
I agree with your last sentence that he is emotional rather than manipulative toward Harry. As for turning Harry against his father and godfather, all he does is telling Harry his opinion about them, plain and flat, without any deeper manipulation. Honestly, Harry's dislike of Snape probably only confirms Harry's good opinion of James and Sirius. No real slytherinness at work here. Snape is essentially an emotion-driven man (unless he specifically empties his mind of emotion) and especially so where Harry is concerned... or James... or Sirius... or Lily... or Lupin... or Dumbledore...
mona amon - Jul 21, 2008 6:43 am (#2602 of 2617)
Snape is essentially an emotion-driven man
Yes, I think he really is, and that is probably why he took such pains to become a master Occlumens.
Julia H. - Jul 22, 2008 3:55 pm (#2603 of 2617)
Do not take me very seriously but reading the various "alternative epilogues" about Snape ("surviving Snape"), I thought of another possible interpretation of Snape being a "Prince" (not necessarily JKR's intention though).
The HP books borrow lots of things from fairy tales, starting with wizards and witches, magical numbers, an "enchanted" castle, the idea of horcruxes, people turning into animals, the character of Harry ("a boy Cindarella", as someone said on the Re-Read-Along thread) etc. The motifs of fairy tales are used in new, unique, creative ways. So in this context, Snape could be the "Enchanted Prince" of fairy tales, who is originally a "Prince", a normal human being, but becomes "enchanted", turned into a monster (or a frog or something else) by some dark magic, by an evil wizard (or witch) and sometimes because of some fault of his own. Actually, both the evil wizard and the "his own fault" motifs seems to apply in Snape's case.
In the fairy tale, the enchanted prince has to be redeemed. As far as I can recall there are two standard ways: either by love (he has to win the love of a Princess in his enchanted form) or by working very hard for his own redemption helping the hero of the fairy tale. Again both versions seem to apply. The first option is reversed: the Enchanted Prince is redeemed by love although not by being loved but by loving deeply and faithfully. The second option is more clearly represented in the books: Snape helps the hero of the story in his quest and in the end dies for his cause.
Going back to the fairy tale versions, I am specifically thinking of a tale of the Grimm Brothers, in which a fox helps the hero prince all the time with advice (teaching!) without actually being with him at the specific tasks and by rescuing him if necessary. The prince does not always follow the advice of the fox and then gets into deep trouble but the fox (getting a bit weary over time) comes to the rescue again and again. In the end, when the quest is completed and the princess is won, the fox asks the prince to kill him. When it happens, the fox becomes a prince, a human again: he is redeemed.
Snape teaches important things to Harry (some of which Harry forgets or does not learn), including the Expelliarmus spell, the weapon to defeat LV, and Snape "teaches" him what he has to do for the final victory. Snape also saves Harry's life repeatedly, although he is never with Harry during Harry's various confrontations with the enemy. This is all quite similar to the story of the fox.
Harry does not kill Snape, although for a while he wants to, but he is at Snape's side when Snape dies. Unlike the fox in the fairy tale, Snape really dies but Harry watches his memories (so we see Snape alive again) and understands his true story: finally he sees Snape as a human being, a "prince", not a criminal or a "monster" any more. In Harry's eyes, Snape is redeemed.
Then, having thought about these fairy tale parallels, I can't help remembering that the chapter in question is called "The Prince's Tale".
BTW, there is another chapter called a "Tale", Kreacher's. It is about Regulus, whose name means 'the little king', - actually quite similar in meaning to the word prince.
Soul Search - Jul 22, 2008 5:49 pm (#2604 of 2617)
Interesting thoughts, Julia H. I like it. It fits the storyline, even if JKR didn't intend it.
She has never hinted at another interpretation, and given what she has said about Snape in interviews I don't see it as her intention, but it has come across anyway. Snape is certainly a character that got away from the writer.
tandaradei - Jul 22, 2008 8:12 pm (#2605 of 2617)
Yes, very interesting.
mona amon - Jul 22, 2008 8:17 pm (#2606 of 2617)
Julia that was very interesting. Apart from Expelliarmus, what does Snape teach Harry? Oh yes, the dying confessions give him the key to defeating Voldemort...Are there any other examples?
PeskyPixie - Jul 22, 2008 8:25 pm (#2607 of 2617)
Harry takes instruction quite well from the Half-Blood Prince.
Julia H. - Jul 23, 2008 3:57 am (#2608 of 2617)
Thanks, everyone.
Yes, Harry learns useful spells and potions knowledge from the Half-Blood Prince (e.g., when he breaks into Gringotts, he manages to put Levicorpus to some constructive use) but even before that, Snape tries to teach him the bezoar several times and the bezoar will be important. Without learning to brew potions in practice (in general), the Trio could not make Polyjuice Potion. It is also Snape who first tells Harry about Veritaserum. Snape also tries to teach Harry Occlumency, which could be a way of preventing a lot of trouble if he learned it. In any case, Harry later uses at least the idea of closing down his mind to LV (though with a different method). He also gets information about Voldemort from Snape. Non-verbal spells are also useful (and the alternative methods of fighting against dementors could be useful as well). It is true, Harry does not learn most of these things or learns them later than he is supposed to but there are things he learns, there is advice he eventually follows and it fits the fairy tale parallel. Snape also tells Harry not to use Unforgivables. Harry uses them still but not at his "main task", not when he fights Voldemort face to face (not after learning Snape's true story and not after getting rid of the Voldy-soulbit).
Solitaire - Jul 23, 2008 1:28 pm (#2609 of 2617)
Snape tries to teach him the bezoar several times
I remember the first potions lesson, Julia, and I know the Bezoar is important in HBP. I do not remember any other times, though, when Snape tries to teach Harry about the Bezoar. Where do they occur?
Solitaire
Julia H. - Jul 23, 2008 1:32 pm (#2610 of 2617)
In GoF they spend a whole term learning about antidotes. At the end-term exam (before Christmas), Harry makes an antidote but leaves out the most important ingredient - the bezoar. (He fails.) I took this as meaning that the bezoar was an important topic during the whole term. That is (together with the very first potion lesson) what I referred to as "several times".
Madam Pince - Jul 23, 2008 5:06 pm (#2611 of 2617)
I don't mean to horn in on the middle of a discussion, but I just had a thought about Snape and wanted to get it down before I forget it. I'm currently listening to HBP on tape and it's amazing how much more and/or how many "different takes" I get from the listening mode rather than the reading mode. Anyway... these points are probably old hat to you Snape-thread lags ( at Ernie) but for what it's worth...
We just listened to the scene after Dumbledore's death when Snape is running away from Hogwarts and Harry is chasing him and they have their little confrontation. I was struck by two things -- Snape's rage, and the fact that Snape mentioned James twice during the scene. Why in the world would he be thinking of James at a time like this? Seems like he'd have a lot of other stuff on his mind -- Dumbledore; defending himself from flying spells; maintaining his 'cover'; doing the "teaching Harry" thing -- I mean, he has a lot going on here. Yet still, it's James that dominates his thinking. The rage -- both on his face when he AK's Dumbledore and when he's duelling Harry -- I originally thought he was angry at Dumbledore for putting him in this awkward position. Then when I noticed the James comments ("Coward...? Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what would you call him, I wonder?" and "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?") it sort of clicked -- he's raging at/about James!
This scene right here, this is what Snape's life has come down to -- being run out of his place of employment, having curses and shrieks of "Coward!" thrown after him. He's just killed the beloved headmaster -- his life as a "good guy" is over -- any remote chance of positive recognition, honor, or glory is totally out the window. And when you think about it, Snape's entire position in life has been dictated by the way he was treated by James when they were schoolboys. (Yes, yes, OK, I know... Snape could've reacted differently and heaven knows he held responsibility too, but still...) James started it all. James tormented him. James, as a "big man on campus," set in motion the way everyone else viewed Snape. James "stole away" Snape's one true love, Lily. This led to a young, angry, resentful Snape making the big mistake of his life -- going over to Voldemort. After this fateful move, the rest of his life was really all mapped out. He practically had no choices after that. The die were cast. It all led to him having to be a double-agent -- having to spend his entire life making people suspicious and making people dislike him in order to maintain the "front." Having to throw away any chance at a normal life. Having to "murder" Dumbledore in order to keep helping the Order. Having to risk (and eventually offer up) his own life. And it's all James' fault.
I can well imagine that his hatred of James was coursing fully through his blood right at that moment. He must've been furiously resentful! If James had treated him even barely civilly; if James and Lily had not gotten together... all that was happening to Snape right at that moment might not be happening. No wonder he was raging at James! I'd probably be ticked at him too!
OK, so that's my two knuts worth of observation... I'm going to pay special attention in future re-reads to how often hatred of James dominates Snape's thoughts. (And of course the fact that Harry resembles James so much adds to the reasons why Snape hates Harry, but I've known that... it's just more to ponder...)
Just see all the things that led from a schoolboy "lark" of teasing... Of course, the ultimate ending, I suppose, is positive in that it all eventually led to Voldemort being defeated, but it sure wasn't very positive for poor Severus...
Julia H. - Jul 23, 2008 5:33 pm (#2612 of 2617)
Madam Pince, what you have said is something that I have been thinking about a lot but I have never put it into words. Thanks a lot, you said it all very well. I do agree that a person is responsible for his life (Snape is no exception), however, it just happens that the harm someone does to another person (and over a long period, too) may simply go way beyond what the doer of these actions can actually see, foresee or understand. People are responsible for other people as well, not only for themselves. I agree that Snape's anger at James is rooted in much more than just the old rivalry for love, that he sees him as the basic negative force in his life and not without reason. Before Snape AK's Dumbledore and is chased away from his home, from his life, he has about a year to think about this day. He does not know in advance how exactly it is going to happen but he must know that his life will irreversibly change into something terrible; furthermore, the day when it happens can be almost any day, without prior warning. He must have spent long, long hours thinking about what the future was about to bring and about how he had got into it all.
PeskyPixie - Jul 23, 2008 5:46 pm (#2613 of 2617)
Without minimizing his negative past with the Marauders, I also wonder if by this point in his life, James is an easy venting target for Snape? He's got so much stress in his life that yelling about James may be a reflex by now? (And it's sure safer than, "I hate you, Tom! You killed my Lily!")
But I do agree with Julia and Madam P as well.
Solitaire - Jul 23, 2008 5:58 pm (#2614 of 2617)
James started it all. James tormented him. James, as a "big man on campus," set in motion the way everyone else viewed Snape.
Do we really know that James actually started it all? We mainly have Snape's memories. Is it remotely possible that they are one-sided? Dumbledore, after all, compared James and Snape's animosity to that between Draco and Harry. He didn't seem to think James was as terrible as Snape makes him out to be.
James, as a "big man on campus," set in motion the way everyone else viewed Snape.
That is granting James rather a lot of power, assuming he dictates the way every other kid in school views another person. He didn't dictate how Lily viewed Snape, did he? Snape did that himself. Are we sure that everyone else at Hogwarts viewed Snape as James did ... or just the Marauders, meaning James and 3 other kids?
I just reread the Deathly Hallows passage where George has been brought into The Burrow from the DE chase. Remus remarks, "Sectumsempra was always a specialty of Snape's." It sounds as though Snape used this spell more than once at Hogwarts. It is apparently Snape's own spell, yet Lupin knows it well as Snape's trademark. A lot is said about how James continually tormented Snape, but Remus said that Snape gave as good as he got ... and I'm wondering if he used this spell when he was "giving."
Sorry, I know you all love Snape and hate James. I just can't believe Snape is as innocent or James as malevolent as they are painted.
Solitaire
Steve Newton - Jul 23, 2008 6:38 pm (#2615 of 2617)
In the worst memory scene it seems to be Sirius who starts the confrontation.
PeskyPixie - Jul 23, 2008 6:41 pm (#2616 of 2617)
Edited Jul 23, 2008 7:55 pm
On the first trip aboard the Hogwarts Express James starts it as well. I don't see how Snape has any fault in this first Snape vs. the Marauders confrontation.
It really doesn't have anything to do with loving Snape and hating James.
EDIT: Do'h! Soli, you got in the last post! We must carry on this discussion on the next thread!
Solitaire - Jul 23, 2008 7:49 pm (#2617 of 2617)
Steve, I am not talking about one confrontation. I am talking about the entirety of the relationship. As to the exchange on the Hogwarts Express, James said, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" It's pretty much what Ron said on his and Harry's first trip.
When James said he wanted to be in Gryffindor ... Snape made a small, disparaging noise. James turned on him. "Got a problem with that?"
"No," said Snape, though his slight sneer said otherwise, "If you'd rather be brawny than brainy--"
"Where're you hoping to go, seeing as you're neither?" interjected Sirius.
James roared with laughter. Lily sat up, rather flushed, and looked from James to Sirius in dislike.
No, it wasn't a nice exchange. It shows James's anti-Slytherin bias from the get-go ... but then you must remember that Voldemort had already been on the move for several years, and many of his followers were known to be from Slytherin. Someone from a family that hated the Dark Arts might naturally feel antagonistic toward anyone who actually wanted to be in Slytherin. Anyway, Snape got in a zinger, as well.
I still believe one was as flawed as the other, and over the years, Snape probably cursed James as often as James cursed him. I do not require anyone to agree with me.
Solitaire
Edited by me
Thanks, Solitaire for the explanation. I understood that it was a derogatory term. What we don't know is what Sirius exactly referred to but it must have been some kind of relationship at school between Lucius and Snape. It may not have been exactly as Sirius described it but Lucius was a prefect, who greeted newly arrived Snape in Slytherin. I don't think at that time there could be any sort of real friendship between the proud and rich pure-blood kid and a poor half-blood kid, who was four years younger, but I can imagine as a prefect, Lucius may have been a bit Percy-like, feeling his own importance and also condescending and he may have protected new-comer Snape (who must have been a bit out-of-place among all those wealthy pure-bloods, especially in the beginning) in return for some admiration. After all, where would Snape have seen anybody like the Malfoys before he went to Hogwarts? So I think the gesture with which Lucius greets him just when he is being separated from his only friend and then Sirius's comment and the other references to some kind of relationship between the Malfoys and Snape suggest that Lucius, as an older kid, may have had some influence on Snape - too bad this influence was not replaced by the better influence of a teacher.
BTW after Sirius's derogatory comment, Snape showed remarkable self-control by merely informing Sirius that he had been seen on the platform. (Well, then he called him a coward, that's true.)
Quinn Crockett - Jul 8, 2008 11:23 am (#2592 of 2617)
After all, where would Snape have seen anybody like the Malfoys before he went to Hogwarts? - Julia
I don't think we should assume that little Severus had never been in contact with "anybody like the Malfoys". His mother, after all, was a witch - albeit apparently one afraid to use magic to defend herself**. His manner of dress when he first meets the Evans sisters seems a pretty clear indication that, despite living right among Muggles, he has no idea how to dress like them. True, it could be argued that his dress is more a sign of his parents neglect than ignorance of Muggle ways. But I think it's at least an equal combination of the two.
Eileen Prince and Severus would surely have come across the Malfoys, or others like them, at the bank or the Leaky Cauldron during regular shopping trips. Then again, since Eileen was apparently married to some sort of tyrannical version of Darren Stevens, the Snape's may well have had to make do with shopping locally.
Actually, now that I think about it, it seems strange that the pure-blood Malfoys, who make it a point to keep up on everyone else's lineage, would not have known that Snape had a Muggle father.
* This may go a long way to explaining Severus's perfectionism with regard to his own spells, intelligence, etc. And his sensitivity to the word "coward".
Solitaire - Jul 8, 2008 3:16 pm (#2593 of 2617)
Didn't Sirius or Remus say that Snape came into Hogwarts knowing more dark spells and curses (not exact wording) than any other kid? Snape's penchant for the Dark Arts combined with his excellent marks might have caught Prefect Lucius Malfoy's attention. Lucius is also the arrogant kind of person, I think, who would have chosen a young Slytherin and distinguished him by preferential treatment. It would have made him feel important to have someone nearby who looked up to him.
Then, too, consider Umbridge's comment, during her observation of Snape's class, that Lucius always speaks highly of Snape, and Draco's comment that indicates his dad would support Snape for Headmaster. I think Sirius is referring to a long-time friendship (or at least, the appearance of one) between Snape and Lucius. Certainly Narcissa feels comfortable enough to ask Snape to help Draco.
Quinn, I thought the same about Snape's Muggle attire. While he is certainly poorly dressed, are his get-ups any worse than some of the others that Wizards have been described as wearing? Possibly his mother doesn't know how to dress like a Muggle, and his father obviously doesn't care how he looks.
Solitaire
megfox* - Jul 11, 2008 5:25 am (#2594 of 2617)
I almost never have anything to say on this thread, but I am firmly in the camp of "Snape's attire is a neglect issue". Considering the fact that his father obviously doesn't like magic, would he have married a witch who didn't know how to dress like a Muggle? He seems to be the kind of person who would be very annoyed by that kind of thing.
Julia H. - Jul 11, 2008 10:18 am (#2595 of 2617)
"Snape's attire is a neglect issue" (megfox)
Yes. Even if his mother does not know how Muggles dress, she may certainly notice that her son is wearing a coat large enough for a man. Besides, the father knows it for sure how muggle children are supposed to dress and if a father cares for his son, he will be interested in what he looks like. (And in this case, it is not about the latest fashion.) Also, a child who has a good relationship with his parents will complain if other children make fun of his clothes. (You should have heard my daughter when she explained to us that NOBODY wore plain white or plain pink T-shirts.) And it is not the only sign of neglect. There is also the description: like a plant kept in the dark. It clearly means he is not getting what he needs, not only (or in the first place) in terms of clothes but in terms of care.
Eileen Prince and Severus would surely have come across the Malfoys, or others like them, at the bank or the Leaky Cauldron during regular shopping trips. (Quinn)
Oh, well, yes. (The bank seems to be less likely though...) OK, he may have accidentally seen rich pure-bloods but associating with them is another thing.
Actually, now that I think about it, it seems strange that the pure-blood Malfoys, who make it a point to keep up on everyone else's lineage, would not have known that Snape had a Muggle father.
I guess Malfoy probably knows Snape is a half-blood. (He does not seem to have made a secret of it and the Malfoys do consider lineage important.) It may have been Snape's knowledge of the Dark Arts and his ability to invent spells (did not Harry like most of those spells?) that helped him gain some respect or acceptance among Slytherin students, which he - a poor half-blood kid, not even good at Quidditch, - would hardly have got otherwise. (Mere academic achievement might not have been enough.) As Solitaire says, prefect Lucius may have distinguished him because of this knowledge and because Snape may have looked up to him more than other rich pure-blood kids (who did not find Lucius special) and Snape did so precisely because Lucius was so different from what he usually saw in Spinner's End (a "real" wizard from a "real" wizard family) and maybe because subconsciously he was looking for a father figure he could respect and who would appreciate him but he did not find one. Lucius must have liked being looked up to and feeling important. It is a question when this relationship turned into friendship (if it was ever a real friendship). Malfoy left Hogwarts a few years after Snape started. (Hm. Did they meet again as DE's or before Snape joined up?)
I agree that child Snape seeing his witch mother being afraid of his muggle father might be at the root of a few things.
PeskyPixie - Jul 11, 2008 7:17 pm (#2596 of 2617)
" ... child Snape seeing his witch mother being afraid of his muggle father might be at the root of a few things." -Julia
Perhaps he is also disgusted with his mother for fearing a Muggle? (Even if Eileen and Tobias both argue, in OotP we see Eileen cowering during her husband's tirade.)
Solitaire - Jul 11, 2008 8:28 pm (#2597 of 2617)
I understand Merope's fear of her father and brother. They were completely unbalanced, and they wielded wands and used them to hurt people. I'd like to know more about the relationship between Snape's mother and father, though, wouldn't you? Why was she fearful of him ... if she was? As a witch, she could have done any number of things to hurt him ... or stop him from hurting her. Why was he abusive, if he was? Did he know she was a witch when he married her? If not, is that why he was upset?
I think Jo needs to fill us in on a few things. How about a little "index card" on Snape?
Solitaire
Julia H. - Jul 13, 2008 9:31 am (#2598 of 2617)
Why was she fearful of him ... if she was? (Solitaire)
Solitaire, this and your other questions are exactly my questions. The only thing that seems to be sure to me is that she was fearful of him. Tobias seems to have had some power over her despite her magic. Was it something psychological? Was she somehow unable to defend herself becasue of some psychological (battered wife?) syndrome?
Did he know she was a witch when he married her?
Good question... hm... he did not like magic. Could it be another case of love potion with the difference that Tobias (unlike Tom Riddle Sr.) did not leave when he found it out? Then again, it is more understandable that Merope was desperate to get away from home and to marry that handsome young man but why would Eileen have wanted to marry Tobias if he did not even love her? Speculation...
BTW, the law of secrecy may result in a lot of marriages where the muggle partner finds out about the wizarding world only after (or at) the wedding.
Yes, Jo could fill us in... or, until she does, we could have more threads of this "write your own version" type and then we could invent our explanations.
Solitaire - Jul 13, 2008 10:25 am (#2599 of 2617)
Love potion ... it makes me wonder if Eileen Prince, like her son, was a "dab hand at potions," to use Slughorn's expression. If she was, then perhaps she passed her talent to her son. Just an idea ...
Solitaire
PeskyPixie - Jul 20, 2008 5:37 pm (#2600 of 2617)
Eek, Soli! I guess I could understand using a love potion to lure a hunk like Tom Riddle Sr., but Tobias??? Eewwwwwww, gross!
The read-along got me to thinking that Snape could easily have become Harry's 'Uncle Sev' (in private, away from prying Death Eater eyes, of course)! He could have become a surrogate parent to his love's orphaned child.
On a nastier note, for someone with a vindictive streak like Sev, it would have been sheer pleasure to have Harry on his side rather than with his father's mates. If he can't have Lily he can at least be her son's mentor and slowly turn him against his own father and godfather. Could you imagine how triumphant he could have been in PoA? "Ha ha, Black and Lupin! Your best mate's son only believes the worst of you!"
Hmmm, then maybe Snape is not too manipulative and calculating in his anger towards Harry. It is purely emotional, of the hissy fit variety.
Julia H. - Jul 21, 2008 4:29 am (#2601 of 2617)
Well, he could have been lots of things if he had been a different Snape... I still don't think this Snape with his guilty secret would have been able to play "Uncle Sev" to Harry.
I agree with your last sentence that he is emotional rather than manipulative toward Harry. As for turning Harry against his father and godfather, all he does is telling Harry his opinion about them, plain and flat, without any deeper manipulation. Honestly, Harry's dislike of Snape probably only confirms Harry's good opinion of James and Sirius. No real slytherinness at work here. Snape is essentially an emotion-driven man (unless he specifically empties his mind of emotion) and especially so where Harry is concerned... or James... or Sirius... or Lily... or Lupin... or Dumbledore...
mona amon - Jul 21, 2008 6:43 am (#2602 of 2617)
Snape is essentially an emotion-driven man
Yes, I think he really is, and that is probably why he took such pains to become a master Occlumens.
Julia H. - Jul 22, 2008 3:55 pm (#2603 of 2617)
Do not take me very seriously but reading the various "alternative epilogues" about Snape ("surviving Snape"), I thought of another possible interpretation of Snape being a "Prince" (not necessarily JKR's intention though).
The HP books borrow lots of things from fairy tales, starting with wizards and witches, magical numbers, an "enchanted" castle, the idea of horcruxes, people turning into animals, the character of Harry ("a boy Cindarella", as someone said on the Re-Read-Along thread) etc. The motifs of fairy tales are used in new, unique, creative ways. So in this context, Snape could be the "Enchanted Prince" of fairy tales, who is originally a "Prince", a normal human being, but becomes "enchanted", turned into a monster (or a frog or something else) by some dark magic, by an evil wizard (or witch) and sometimes because of some fault of his own. Actually, both the evil wizard and the "his own fault" motifs seems to apply in Snape's case.
In the fairy tale, the enchanted prince has to be redeemed. As far as I can recall there are two standard ways: either by love (he has to win the love of a Princess in his enchanted form) or by working very hard for his own redemption helping the hero of the fairy tale. Again both versions seem to apply. The first option is reversed: the Enchanted Prince is redeemed by love although not by being loved but by loving deeply and faithfully. The second option is more clearly represented in the books: Snape helps the hero of the story in his quest and in the end dies for his cause.
Going back to the fairy tale versions, I am specifically thinking of a tale of the Grimm Brothers, in which a fox helps the hero prince all the time with advice (teaching!) without actually being with him at the specific tasks and by rescuing him if necessary. The prince does not always follow the advice of the fox and then gets into deep trouble but the fox (getting a bit weary over time) comes to the rescue again and again. In the end, when the quest is completed and the princess is won, the fox asks the prince to kill him. When it happens, the fox becomes a prince, a human again: he is redeemed.
Snape teaches important things to Harry (some of which Harry forgets or does not learn), including the Expelliarmus spell, the weapon to defeat LV, and Snape "teaches" him what he has to do for the final victory. Snape also saves Harry's life repeatedly, although he is never with Harry during Harry's various confrontations with the enemy. This is all quite similar to the story of the fox.
Harry does not kill Snape, although for a while he wants to, but he is at Snape's side when Snape dies. Unlike the fox in the fairy tale, Snape really dies but Harry watches his memories (so we see Snape alive again) and understands his true story: finally he sees Snape as a human being, a "prince", not a criminal or a "monster" any more. In Harry's eyes, Snape is redeemed.
Then, having thought about these fairy tale parallels, I can't help remembering that the chapter in question is called "The Prince's Tale".
BTW, there is another chapter called a "Tale", Kreacher's. It is about Regulus, whose name means 'the little king', - actually quite similar in meaning to the word prince.
Soul Search - Jul 22, 2008 5:49 pm (#2604 of 2617)
Interesting thoughts, Julia H. I like it. It fits the storyline, even if JKR didn't intend it.
She has never hinted at another interpretation, and given what she has said about Snape in interviews I don't see it as her intention, but it has come across anyway. Snape is certainly a character that got away from the writer.
tandaradei - Jul 22, 2008 8:12 pm (#2605 of 2617)
Yes, very interesting.
mona amon - Jul 22, 2008 8:17 pm (#2606 of 2617)
Julia that was very interesting. Apart from Expelliarmus, what does Snape teach Harry? Oh yes, the dying confessions give him the key to defeating Voldemort...Are there any other examples?
PeskyPixie - Jul 22, 2008 8:25 pm (#2607 of 2617)
Harry takes instruction quite well from the Half-Blood Prince.
Julia H. - Jul 23, 2008 3:57 am (#2608 of 2617)
Thanks, everyone.
Yes, Harry learns useful spells and potions knowledge from the Half-Blood Prince (e.g., when he breaks into Gringotts, he manages to put Levicorpus to some constructive use) but even before that, Snape tries to teach him the bezoar several times and the bezoar will be important. Without learning to brew potions in practice (in general), the Trio could not make Polyjuice Potion. It is also Snape who first tells Harry about Veritaserum. Snape also tries to teach Harry Occlumency, which could be a way of preventing a lot of trouble if he learned it. In any case, Harry later uses at least the idea of closing down his mind to LV (though with a different method). He also gets information about Voldemort from Snape. Non-verbal spells are also useful (and the alternative methods of fighting against dementors could be useful as well). It is true, Harry does not learn most of these things or learns them later than he is supposed to but there are things he learns, there is advice he eventually follows and it fits the fairy tale parallel. Snape also tells Harry not to use Unforgivables. Harry uses them still but not at his "main task", not when he fights Voldemort face to face (not after learning Snape's true story and not after getting rid of the Voldy-soulbit).
Solitaire - Jul 23, 2008 1:28 pm (#2609 of 2617)
Snape tries to teach him the bezoar several times
I remember the first potions lesson, Julia, and I know the Bezoar is important in HBP. I do not remember any other times, though, when Snape tries to teach Harry about the Bezoar. Where do they occur?
Solitaire
Julia H. - Jul 23, 2008 1:32 pm (#2610 of 2617)
In GoF they spend a whole term learning about antidotes. At the end-term exam (before Christmas), Harry makes an antidote but leaves out the most important ingredient - the bezoar. (He fails.) I took this as meaning that the bezoar was an important topic during the whole term. That is (together with the very first potion lesson) what I referred to as "several times".
Madam Pince - Jul 23, 2008 5:06 pm (#2611 of 2617)
I don't mean to horn in on the middle of a discussion, but I just had a thought about Snape and wanted to get it down before I forget it. I'm currently listening to HBP on tape and it's amazing how much more and/or how many "different takes" I get from the listening mode rather than the reading mode. Anyway... these points are probably old hat to you Snape-thread lags ( at Ernie) but for what it's worth...
We just listened to the scene after Dumbledore's death when Snape is running away from Hogwarts and Harry is chasing him and they have their little confrontation. I was struck by two things -- Snape's rage, and the fact that Snape mentioned James twice during the scene. Why in the world would he be thinking of James at a time like this? Seems like he'd have a lot of other stuff on his mind -- Dumbledore; defending himself from flying spells; maintaining his 'cover'; doing the "teaching Harry" thing -- I mean, he has a lot going on here. Yet still, it's James that dominates his thinking. The rage -- both on his face when he AK's Dumbledore and when he's duelling Harry -- I originally thought he was angry at Dumbledore for putting him in this awkward position. Then when I noticed the James comments ("Coward...? Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what would you call him, I wonder?" and "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?") it sort of clicked -- he's raging at/about James!
This scene right here, this is what Snape's life has come down to -- being run out of his place of employment, having curses and shrieks of "Coward!" thrown after him. He's just killed the beloved headmaster -- his life as a "good guy" is over -- any remote chance of positive recognition, honor, or glory is totally out the window. And when you think about it, Snape's entire position in life has been dictated by the way he was treated by James when they were schoolboys. (Yes, yes, OK, I know... Snape could've reacted differently and heaven knows he held responsibility too, but still...) James started it all. James tormented him. James, as a "big man on campus," set in motion the way everyone else viewed Snape. James "stole away" Snape's one true love, Lily. This led to a young, angry, resentful Snape making the big mistake of his life -- going over to Voldemort. After this fateful move, the rest of his life was really all mapped out. He practically had no choices after that. The die were cast. It all led to him having to be a double-agent -- having to spend his entire life making people suspicious and making people dislike him in order to maintain the "front." Having to throw away any chance at a normal life. Having to "murder" Dumbledore in order to keep helping the Order. Having to risk (and eventually offer up) his own life. And it's all James' fault.
I can well imagine that his hatred of James was coursing fully through his blood right at that moment. He must've been furiously resentful! If James had treated him even barely civilly; if James and Lily had not gotten together... all that was happening to Snape right at that moment might not be happening. No wonder he was raging at James! I'd probably be ticked at him too!
OK, so that's my two knuts worth of observation... I'm going to pay special attention in future re-reads to how often hatred of James dominates Snape's thoughts. (And of course the fact that Harry resembles James so much adds to the reasons why Snape hates Harry, but I've known that... it's just more to ponder...)
Just see all the things that led from a schoolboy "lark" of teasing... Of course, the ultimate ending, I suppose, is positive in that it all eventually led to Voldemort being defeated, but it sure wasn't very positive for poor Severus...
Julia H. - Jul 23, 2008 5:33 pm (#2612 of 2617)
Madam Pince, what you have said is something that I have been thinking about a lot but I have never put it into words. Thanks a lot, you said it all very well. I do agree that a person is responsible for his life (Snape is no exception), however, it just happens that the harm someone does to another person (and over a long period, too) may simply go way beyond what the doer of these actions can actually see, foresee or understand. People are responsible for other people as well, not only for themselves. I agree that Snape's anger at James is rooted in much more than just the old rivalry for love, that he sees him as the basic negative force in his life and not without reason. Before Snape AK's Dumbledore and is chased away from his home, from his life, he has about a year to think about this day. He does not know in advance how exactly it is going to happen but he must know that his life will irreversibly change into something terrible; furthermore, the day when it happens can be almost any day, without prior warning. He must have spent long, long hours thinking about what the future was about to bring and about how he had got into it all.
PeskyPixie - Jul 23, 2008 5:46 pm (#2613 of 2617)
Without minimizing his negative past with the Marauders, I also wonder if by this point in his life, James is an easy venting target for Snape? He's got so much stress in his life that yelling about James may be a reflex by now? (And it's sure safer than, "I hate you, Tom! You killed my Lily!")
But I do agree with Julia and Madam P as well.
Solitaire - Jul 23, 2008 5:58 pm (#2614 of 2617)
James started it all. James tormented him. James, as a "big man on campus," set in motion the way everyone else viewed Snape.
Do we really know that James actually started it all? We mainly have Snape's memories. Is it remotely possible that they are one-sided? Dumbledore, after all, compared James and Snape's animosity to that between Draco and Harry. He didn't seem to think James was as terrible as Snape makes him out to be.
James, as a "big man on campus," set in motion the way everyone else viewed Snape.
That is granting James rather a lot of power, assuming he dictates the way every other kid in school views another person. He didn't dictate how Lily viewed Snape, did he? Snape did that himself. Are we sure that everyone else at Hogwarts viewed Snape as James did ... or just the Marauders, meaning James and 3 other kids?
I just reread the Deathly Hallows passage where George has been brought into The Burrow from the DE chase. Remus remarks, "Sectumsempra was always a specialty of Snape's." It sounds as though Snape used this spell more than once at Hogwarts. It is apparently Snape's own spell, yet Lupin knows it well as Snape's trademark. A lot is said about how James continually tormented Snape, but Remus said that Snape gave as good as he got ... and I'm wondering if he used this spell when he was "giving."
Sorry, I know you all love Snape and hate James. I just can't believe Snape is as innocent or James as malevolent as they are painted.
Solitaire
Steve Newton - Jul 23, 2008 6:38 pm (#2615 of 2617)
In the worst memory scene it seems to be Sirius who starts the confrontation.
PeskyPixie - Jul 23, 2008 6:41 pm (#2616 of 2617)
Edited Jul 23, 2008 7:55 pm
On the first trip aboard the Hogwarts Express James starts it as well. I don't see how Snape has any fault in this first Snape vs. the Marauders confrontation.
It really doesn't have anything to do with loving Snape and hating James.
EDIT: Do'h! Soli, you got in the last post! We must carry on this discussion on the next thread!
Solitaire - Jul 23, 2008 7:49 pm (#2617 of 2617)
Steve, I am not talking about one confrontation. I am talking about the entirety of the relationship. As to the exchange on the Hogwarts Express, James said, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" It's pretty much what Ron said on his and Harry's first trip.
When James said he wanted to be in Gryffindor ... Snape made a small, disparaging noise. James turned on him. "Got a problem with that?"
"No," said Snape, though his slight sneer said otherwise, "If you'd rather be brawny than brainy--"
"Where're you hoping to go, seeing as you're neither?" interjected Sirius.
James roared with laughter. Lily sat up, rather flushed, and looked from James to Sirius in dislike.
No, it wasn't a nice exchange. It shows James's anti-Slytherin bias from the get-go ... but then you must remember that Voldemort had already been on the move for several years, and many of his followers were known to be from Slytherin. Someone from a family that hated the Dark Arts might naturally feel antagonistic toward anyone who actually wanted to be in Slytherin. Anyway, Snape got in a zinger, as well.
I still believe one was as flawed as the other, and over the years, Snape probably cursed James as often as James cursed him. I do not require anyone to agree with me.
Solitaire
Edited by me
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Severus Snape, Volume 7 (Posts from Jul 24, 2008 to February 28, 2010)
Mona Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:52 am
+ Severus Snape
megfox* [/b]- Jul 24, 2008 5:04 am
Edited by Kip Carter Feb 28, 2010 12:49 pm
This is the seventh thread for Severus Snape, who is one of the most controversial characters in the Harry Potter series, and because of this controversy, the messages in his thread grow at a huge rate.
Please review the preceding thread for the on-going discussion. *** Do Not Post unless you are adding to the discussion! ***
The first thread Severus Snape (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 6, 2003) accumulated 644 messages in the 74 days since our return to the World Crossing (WX) system. The original thread had 620 messages on November 10, 2003 with the last message that day being Post #620 by Ovate. In an effort to consolidate some similar messages on another thread, The vacancy Snape wished to fill... was moved to the end of the original thread and the 24 messages of that thread start at Post #621 and continue to the end where I have stopped any further posts.
The second thread started on November 11, 2003 and continued to October 22, 2004 when it was closed out with 2957 messages. The second thread was renamed Severus Snape (posts from Nov 11, 2003 to Oct 22, 2004).
The third thread started on October 22, 2004 and continued to September 19, 2005 when it was closed with 2980 messages. The third thread was renamed Severus Snape (posts from Oct 22, 2004 to Sep 19, 2005).
The fourth thread started on September 19, 2005 and continued to August 12, 2006 when it was closed with 2969 messages. The fourth thread was renamed Severus Snape (posts from Sep 19, 2005 to Aug 12, 2006).
The fifth thread started on August 12, 2006 and continued to August 2, 2007 when it was closed with 2959 messages. The fifth thread was renamed Severus Snape (posts from Aug 12, 2006 to Aug 2, 2007).
The sixth thread started on August 2, 2007 and continued to July 23, 2008 when it was closed with 2617 messages. The sixth thread was renamed Severus Snape (posts from Aug 2, 2007 to July 23, 2008).
Note: I strongly suggest that everyone read my Jan 18, 2007 Edited Jan 23, 2007 post before adding your next message.
VOLUME 7 INDEX
megfox* [/b]- Jul 24, 2008 5:04 am
Edited by Kip Carter Feb 28, 2010 12:49 pm
This is the seventh thread for Severus Snape, who is one of the most controversial characters in the Harry Potter series, and because of this controversy, the messages in his thread grow at a huge rate.
Please review the preceding thread for the on-going discussion. *** Do Not Post unless you are adding to the discussion! ***
The first thread Severus Snape (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 6, 2003) accumulated 644 messages in the 74 days since our return to the World Crossing (WX) system. The original thread had 620 messages on November 10, 2003 with the last message that day being Post #620 by Ovate. In an effort to consolidate some similar messages on another thread, The vacancy Snape wished to fill... was moved to the end of the original thread and the 24 messages of that thread start at Post #621 and continue to the end where I have stopped any further posts.
The second thread started on November 11, 2003 and continued to October 22, 2004 when it was closed out with 2957 messages. The second thread was renamed Severus Snape (posts from Nov 11, 2003 to Oct 22, 2004).
The third thread started on October 22, 2004 and continued to September 19, 2005 when it was closed with 2980 messages. The third thread was renamed Severus Snape (posts from Oct 22, 2004 to Sep 19, 2005).
The fourth thread started on September 19, 2005 and continued to August 12, 2006 when it was closed with 2969 messages. The fourth thread was renamed Severus Snape (posts from Sep 19, 2005 to Aug 12, 2006).
The fifth thread started on August 12, 2006 and continued to August 2, 2007 when it was closed with 2959 messages. The fifth thread was renamed Severus Snape (posts from Aug 12, 2006 to Aug 2, 2007).
The sixth thread started on August 2, 2007 and continued to July 23, 2008 when it was closed with 2617 messages. The sixth thread was renamed Severus Snape (posts from Aug 2, 2007 to July 23, 2008).
Note: I strongly suggest that everyone read my Jan 18, 2007 Edited Jan 23, 2007 post before adding your next message.
VOLUME 7 INDEX
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Julia H. - Jul 24, 2008 10:02 am (#1 of 2988)
Edited Jul 24, 2008 11:50 am
"Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" It's pretty much what Ron said on his and Harry's first trip. (Solitaire)
It is different because Ron was giving friendly advice while James was already judging Snape. Actually James's words are similar to Draco's as he tells Harry (when they meet for the first time) what it would be like to be sorted into Hufflepuff.
I don't know how much 11-year-old James knew about Voldemort and his Slytherin connections (maybe he did a lot but we are never told), however, in this scene, it seems James wants to be a Gryffindor because his father was a Gryffindor as well (that is what he says). It is a good reason but then Snape wants to be in Slytherin because he thinks (again that is what he says) it is a place for those who have brains. Nobody ever seems to be telling him that this is the house where wizards go wrong - and who would think they have a house precisely for that? (Harry finds out that his parents' murderer was a Slytherin and he also meets Draco before the sorting ceremony, so for him it is pretty obvious that Slytherin is a bad place.) Snape the child is described as "small and stringy", which to me in itself explains why he does not want to go to a house for the "brawny" (as he seems to think).
After this meeting with James and Sirius, Snape will not like Gryffindor house any more. I think it is James who starts the whole exchange. Yes, Snape then makes a small disparaging noise and the "brainy and brawny" comment but Sirius calls him "Snivellus" and James tries to trip him - to me James and Sirius seem to be more aggressive than Snape.
I still believe one was as flawed as the other, and over the years, Snape probably cursed James as often as James cursed him.
Yes, I can agree with that. Still, the scenes we get to see (the train scene and the Worst Memory scene) show James and Sirius as the aggressors (who start the conflict), so I think it suggests that they are on the whole more responsible for this relationship of deep enmity than Snape. (We also know they tend to hex other people as well.) But when the enmity is already there, Snape in all probability gives as well as he gets (I cannot blame him any more than I blame Harry in his relationship with Draco) - but then again it is indicated that the Marauders attack him as a group (or at least as a pair), while Snape seems to be, as a rule, alone. So if he does give as much as he gets, he must be really good at fighting.
On the other hand, I don't think the post that started this discussion (I hope I understood what Madam Pince wanted to say) was saying that James was all bad and Snape was all good. We have tried to compare them many times. I think the post was about the influence James and this enmity had on Snape's life. IMO, the new question this post has brought up is not the question of who is more to blame but the question of this (bad) influence in itself: just to what extent the behaviour of James pushed Snape's life into the wrong direction? (We love to discuss Snape's flaws and bad choices and responsibility but this is now another aspect of his life.)
Did James's behaviour influence how other students saw Snape?
We know James and Sirius were "popular" (though I don't think the many students they hexed really liked them so much but they probably did not dare to voice their opinions very loudly). They were confident, successful, good-looking and easy-going. Snape, whose social and family background was much, much worse than James's, started with a clear disadvantage. In the Worst Memory Scene, a lot of people laugh at him and nobody stops the Marauders until Lily appears. James is looking around, quite clearly trying to entertain the audience. (I must confess I find this aspect of his behaviour especially disgusting.)
At school, Harry had no one. Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his baggy old clothes and broken glasses, and nobody liked to disagree with Dudley's gang. (PS, Ch.2.)
I think in a way like this, James may have had an influence on Snape's relationship with other students. Notice that Sirius calls Snape an "oddball" and above is "odd Harry Potter in his baggy old clothes". And isn't Snape laughed at because of his clothes? The resemblance cannot be an accident. (If Snape was indeed isolated from most other students - both as a poor, insecure "oddball" and as the favourite "victim" of the most popular and aggressive group of students - his clinging to those who did not mind him, i.e., the Slytherin gang, is more understandable.)
Did James influence Lily's opinion of Snape? I think he did.
After the Prank, Snape was not allowed to tell his version of it because of Lupin's secret. Yet, Lily clearly heard the Gryffindor version from someone (heroic James saving Snape from "whatever's down there" with the probable omission of the part Sirius had played or that they all would have been in great trouble if anything had happened to Snape). Then she thought Snape was "ungrateful".
In the Worst Memory Scene, Snape's dignity is crushed in front of the girl he loves and whose admiration he would like to win. Then in his rage and humiliation (not only is he hanging upside down and is being laughed at but at the same time James is asking Lily to go out with him), he calls her a Mudblood. He should not have done it and he probably would not have done it if he had not been provoked in such a situation. So, yes, James played a part in their breaking up. No, I am not putting all the blame on James but from Snape's point of view, James was a person who did everything in his power (and with great success) to ruin Snape's life.
BTW, James may not have thought he was ruining Snape's life. He may not ever have thought that his actions had long-term effects on Snape or that he had a responsibility there. But that did not count much from Snape's point of view.
Soul Search - Jul 24, 2008 10:42 am (#2 of 2988)
Good assessment, Julia H. I particularily liked citing Snape's early childhood with Harry's. JKR even uses the same words to describe them, so the similarity must be intentional. After the worst memory scene Harry even compares James with Dudley, further suggesting Harry thought James was "bullying" Snape.
Maybe we are seeing her showing that two kids with similar, less than ideal, backgrounds can turn out differently. Choices again, although we don't know exactly what choices were initially made.
Incidently, prior to the worst memory scene, both Harry and Snape had seen bits of the other's childhood in the Occulmency lessons. Were they both supposed to have made the comparison. Harry did appear to, briefly, develop some compassion for Snape. Did Snape, for Harry, as well?
Julia H. - Jul 24, 2008 3:03 pm (#3 of 2988)
Edited Jul 24, 2008 4:23 pm
Interesting question, Soul Search. Once again, the situation is that we can see into Harry's mind but not into Snape's so we can only make guesses as always.
I think Dryleaves mentioned the following earlier (I liked her explanation and I am paraphrasing it now): It is curious when Harry accidentally breaks into Snape's mind, he finds his childhood memories instead of some recent ones. One would think, since this instance of Harry's legilimency is more or less accidental (he only wants to defend himself) and probably not a very "deep" type, he would see something that is in the foreground of Snape's mind at that moment. This indicates that Snape is just thinking about his own bleak childhood. Why? A very possible explanation is that, as he sees Harry's childhood memories, he is reminded of his own childhood memories, which means he does seem to make the comparison at some level at least.
When he compliments Harry - granted, in his own way - after Harry's first attempt during the first lesson, it might be a reaction to seeing Harry's sad memories for the first time and feeling some kind of ... hm ... sympathy (? which probably vanishes when Harry next starts to speak but still...). (Of course, it is just guesswork again.) Then we learn that later Snape "kept calling forth" lots of images from Harry's childhood ... I wonder if he is interested and wants to find out more.
When Snape talks about "weak people" and "wallowing in sad memories" so passionately, I have the impression that he is talking about his own earlier experiences, about himself - trying to warn Harry to avoid certain mistakes. (Harry does not suspect this.) But then this is an extraordinary moment in their relationship: Snape is opening up a little bit, talking to Harry about himself, his own feelings or experiences; as an adult, trying to teach the kid how to be wiser, more careful than he was. I think they are probably closer to each other at that moment (at least as far as Snape is concerned) than any other time before the "look at me" scene.
Solitaire - Jul 24, 2008 4:19 pm (#4 of 2988)
Edited Jul 24, 2008 5:23 pm
Still, the scenes we get to see (the train scene and the Worst Memory scene) show James and Sirius as the aggressors (who start the conflict), so I think it suggests that they are on the whole more responsible for this relationship of deep enmity than Snape.
While I agree that the memories suggest James was the instigator of everything ... these are still Snape's memories. A look into James's Pensieve might have shown something different, but we don't have access to James's memories, so I am sticking with Remus's statement that Snape gave as good as he got. Also, I think it is highly unlikely that any kids entering Hogwarts--other than Muggle-borns like Lily--would not have a pretty good idea of what Voldemort has been up to. Many of them have probably lost friends or family by that point. Most of the kids entering with Harry certainly know ... and Voldy's killing sprees started well before James, Snape, and their peers began school. In fact, Snape obviously joins "the dark side" while he is still in school and receiving input against it from his one true friend--Lily.
Lily clearly heard the Gryffindor version from someone (heroic James saving Snape from "whatever's down there" with the probable omission of the part Sirius had played or that they all would have been in great trouble if anything had happened to Snape). Then she thought Snape was "ungrateful".
I can't imagine Dumbledore would allow the participants in this little debacle to make this public, given the nature of Lupin's "furry little problem" and the means to which he has gone to keep it quiet. I'm betting the Marauders got detention over this prank, which I agree was not too funny. That may be how she found out. Remus was a prefect that year, and Lily may have been one, as well ... although that is just a guess, based on her being head girl. But it still seems as though James had nothing to do with that whole prank other than finding out about it and trying to stop it. Granted, he probably did it more for the sake of Sirius and the privacy of Remus than for Snape's safety ... although hating someone and wanting them dead (or soul-sucked, like Snape did Sirius) are 2 different things. But he did step in and save him, and that alone would have given away Sirius's role in things. So as for minimizing Sirius's role, I don't think James would have been able to do that.
Snape is opening up a little bit, talking to Harry about himself, his own feelings or experiences; as an adult, trying to teach the kid how to be wiser, more careful than he was.
The only problem is that the way he presents the information makes Harry look and feel like a stupid fool who can't control his emotions. And he takes every opportunity to make Harry feel as worthless as he possibly can. I could go on, but there are plenty of my posts on the archived Snape threads that detail my feelings about his teaching techniques. Snape is so big on telling Harry to control his emotions that he forgets to control his own ... and he loses many opportunities to really reach Harry. It is a tribute to Harry's forgiving heart and his ability to stay focused (at last!) on the task before him that he is able to put aside his animosity and really see and hear those final memories Snape gives him. It is a further tribute to his heart that he is finally able to give Snape his due in the end, before all of the people who know how hard Snape has made Harry's life at Hogwarts.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 24, 2008 8:31 pm (#5 of 2988)
Edited Jul 24, 2008 9:33 pm
I am sticking with Remus's statement that Snape gave as good as he got. Also, I think it is highly unlikely that any kids entering Hogwarts--other than Muggle-borns like Lily--would not have a pretty good idea of what Voldemort has been up to. (Solitaire)
The problem with the evidence that Snape "gave as good as he got" is that the only person who says this is one of the gang that bullied Snape and was a person who has a history in the books of skewing comments, covering up information, or flat out lying in order to keep the goodwill of others. Given that Harry is being somewhat accusatory toward Remus and Sirius at the moment, and given Remus' tendency to attempt to keep good will, it's all too likely that Remus once again fudged the truth to keep Harry's goodwill. After all, if he'd be willing to risk the safety of hundreds of kids just to keep DD's goodwill, why not risk nothing and fudge the truth to keep Harry's goodwill?
If JKR wanted to show us that that Snape attacked James just as much as James attacked him, or had Slytherin friends that helped him attack the Marauders or defend himself, she could easily have done so by simply referring to such events, including a note in a detention file, having some other character like another teacher or Dumbledore or Slughorn refer to something like that, or include some such mention of it in The Prince's Tale.
As for what children would have known about Voldemort when James and Snape entered Hogwarts, it's rather murky. JKR has DD and McGonagall, at the first of PS/SS comment on the length of time they'd been dealing with LV. But she also had Sirius comment that his parents had been supporters of LV and (even though this was a very Dark family) didn't really realize the extent to which he was going in his activities. So I don't think it was clearcut in the series exactly when LV and his followers started killing and torturing people outright, without bothering to keep it a secret.
And he takes every opportunity to make Harry feel as worthless as he possibly can. (Solitiare)
I never notice Harry feeling worthless due to Snape's comments, regardless of Snape's intent -- Neville, perhaps, but not Harry. Further, while I definitely agree that Snape says a great deal that is insulting and sometimes downright cruel, the phrase "he takes every opportunity" suggests that Snape is specifically intending to make Harry feel worthless. In the occlumency lessons, and in particular the part about wearing one's heart on one's sleeve, I did not feel that Snape's outburst had any particular intent to make Harry feel bad, nor particularly worthless, but was a spontaneous outburst stemming from Snape's own feelings about himself.
Solitaire - Jul 24, 2008 8:40 pm (#6 of 2988)
I know how you feel, Wynnleaf. I do not think we will EVER agree about anything connected with Snape and Remus. Fortunately, it doesn't matter, does it?
PeskyPixie - Jul 24, 2008 8:52 pm (#7 of 2988)
It may not matter, Soli, but it sure is a lot of fun! I look forward to joining this discussion soon. Meanwhile, I've posted the next part of my epilogue.
Solitaire - Jul 24, 2008 9:18 pm (#8 of 2988)
I think you, as a Snape fan, will like it, Pesky. I think it's time for me to take a Snape break, however. I have to do it periodically, and I think the time has come once again.
I'm more interested in some of the other threads that are starting to become active again with the rereads.
Solitaire
Quinn Crockett - Jul 25, 2008 12:10 am (#9 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 1:11 am
Lily clearly heard the Gryffindor version from someone (heroic James saving Snape from "whatever's down there" with the probable omission of the part Sirius had played...
Why automatically assume James wasn't telling the truth? We saw Harry save Draco, his arch-nemesis, more than once simply because it was the right thing to do. As much as they despised each other, when it came down to it, Harry would never let Draco die if he could do something about it. We saw Snape threaten both Sirius and Lupin with Dementors, but ultimately reason prevailed and he didn't go through with it. Why should James, even as a teenager, be any different?
Why automatically assume Lupin was lying when he said Snape "gave as good as he got"? After all, Snape did skulk around after the Marauders for the sole purpose of trying to get them expelled. Even Lily thinks he's "so obsessed with them". And he was also stupid enough to actually listen to someone whom he regarded as a mortal enemy. He really has no one but himself to blame for "the Prank".
I mean, if someone I regularly got into fights with suddenly told me, "Well if you're so curious about where my buddy's going, why don't you just tag along and see?" personally, I would assume that he was sending me into a trap of some kind. So, would I listen to this guy, who routinely attacks me without warning, and go? Absolutely not!
I agree that Snape does "take every opportunity to make Harry feel worthless". But because Harry has such high self-esteem that it never turns out that way. Snape certainly does deliberately push all of Harry's buttons.
Julia H. - Jul 25, 2008 12:43 am (#10 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 2:22 am
While I agree that the memories suggest James was the instigator of everything ... these are still Snape's memories. A look into James's Pensieve might have shown something different, but we don't have access to James's memories... (Solitaire)
Still, it was JKR's decision to show situations in which James and Sirius attacked Snape and none in which Snape attacked them. She may not have meant to say that it was always James and Sirius who started but she certainly gave me the impression that it was more typical than Snape starting the conflict. Snape also mentions the "four-on-one" situation... I think Remus's "gave as good as he got" comment does not specify anything about how the fights started: I think Snape could give as good as he got even when he was attacked. But again, I am not saying it was always the Marauders who attacked only that their responsibility seems to be greater in the overall conflict.
I think it is highly unlikely that any kids entering Hogwarts--other than Muggle-borns like Lily--would not have a pretty good idea of what Voldemort has been up to.
Yet, nothing indicates that 11-year-old Snape knew. Regulus certainly did not see it clearly in his Hogwarts years and he was a bit younger than Snape. BTW, even if Snape was not muggle-born, his family seems to have been on the periphery of the wizarding community - we never know what contacts he had with his mother's family, for example, - while the Potters and the Blacks were certainly in a much better social position and were probably better informed. Yet, even the Blacks underestimated Voldemort in the years well after Snape entered Hogwarts.
11-year-old Snape only wanted to be in Slytherin house, it is not like he wanted to join Voldemort right then. Nowhere is indicated that Snape wanted to be in Slytherin because it was such an evil place.
Snape's spontaneous outburst stemming from Snape's own feelings about himself. (wynnleaf)
Yes, it was spontaneous and I did not say that Harry understood it or that it made Harry feel particularly good. I only said that given Snape's basic relationship with Harry, it is remarkable that here he seems to be stepping over the barrier between them, truly trying to help Harry, truly making a comparison between them and pouring some of his feelings about himself, however enigmatically, in front of Harry because he knows Harry is in danger. It is only a little step and Harry only understands that Snape is calling him "weak", which is a communication problem, but Snape does not seem to talk about these feelings to anyone at all and yet now these words burst out of him in front of Harry and exclusively for Harry's sake. Even if he does not achieve much with this, at this moment he manages to temporarily overcome a serious psychological obstacle fixed by long years of solitude and unhealing wounds.
Why automatically assume James wasn't telling the truth? (Quinn)
I assume James told the story in the way that was the best for him and the worst for Snape. He may not have lied directly but Lily does not seem to know anything about Sirius's behaviour - or do you think she knows Sirius sent her best friend knowingly into mortal danger and does not find it wrong? And she seems to think that James went after Snape exclusively for Snape's sake (who "somehow" got into danger) and does not seem to know that Sirius and Lupin were getting into trouble as well. I did not say James told a direct lie, I only said his story was one-sided, while Snape could not tell his own version without revealing Lupin's secret and he could not do that. The point I was making was James influencing Lily's opinion about Snape when Snape could not very well defend himself. Even if James was telling (part of) the truth, he was bragging when he should have been silent about the whole thing (for Lupin's sake).
As much as they despised each other, when it came down to it, Harry would never let Draco die if he could do something about it.
It is true but I still see differences: James's best friend had got Snape into danger and he was saving Sirius and Lupin (and perhaps even himself) as much as Snape. That is all fine, of course, but it is precisely this one-sided "bragging" afterwards to the girl they both liked (and maybe to others) that discredits the "noble rival" notion of James in my eyes. Harry never does anything like that.
wynnleaf - Jul 25, 2008 4:58 am (#11 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 5:58 am
Why automatically assume James wasn't telling the truth? (Quinn)
I don't think anyone is assuming James directly lied to Lily, but we don't actually have a quote of what he said to her. All we've got are her comments in order to give us some idea of the story she was hearing. And Lily doesn't seem to know about anything other than James somehow saving Snape's life, but nothing about Sirius being in anyway involved in putting Snape's life at risk. Therefore the only thing we know that someone passed along to her was a story of James' heroism. We don't know if James told people, or other Marauders, or what. Whoever it was didn't give Lily the whole picture, only the parts that made James look good and Snape look bad.
Why automatically assume Lupin was lying when he said Snape "gave as good as he got"? (Quinn)
It's not a question of "automatically" assuming anything, instead it is a process of analyzing what story is more likely to be right -- the evidence of a man known to lie and cover up to keep someone's goodwill or the body of scenes that JKR gives us that only show the Marauder's being the instigators in altercations with Snape combined with Snape's own comments that they only attacked several against one. Snape is often insulting and cruel, but we don't see evidence that he directly lies to Harry or anyone else except in spying situations as with lying to Bella, so his word tends to have a better history of sincerity, albeit often insulting, than Lupin's word.
After all, Snape did skulk around after the Marauders for the sole purpose of trying to get them expelled. Even Lily thinks he's "so obsessed with them". (Quinn)
I always felt this was a completely valid response to bullies when the school seemed unable to stop the bullying. If a group of students were always starting fights with you and attacking you, including surprise attacks, wouldn't you want them gone from the school? The fact that Snape wanted them expelled doesn't give us any evidence that he was actively out initiating attacks on them or instigating fights.
mona amon - Jul 25, 2008 6:12 am (#12 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 7:31 am
I was struck by two things -- Snape's rage, and the fact that Snape mentioned James twice during the scene. Why in the world would he be thinking of James at a time like this? Seems like he'd have a lot of other stuff on his mind -- Dumbledore; defending himself from flying spells; maintaining his 'cover'; doing the "teaching Harry" thing -- I mean, he has a lot going on here. Yet still, it's James that dominates his thinking. The rage -- both on his face when he AK's Dumbledore and when he's duelling Harry -- I originally thought he was angry at Dumbledore for putting him in this awkward position. Then when I noticed the James comments ("Coward...? Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what would you call him, I wonder?" and "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?") it sort of clicked -- he's raging at/about James! (Madam Pince)
I feel that Snape bringing up James at such a moment was due to a simple association of ideas- he hears Harry shout 'Coward' and naturally thinks 'James!'
At first Snape isn't quite as mad as Harry is. 'Sneering' and 'lazy flick of the arm' do not indicate blind fury. What really makes him fly into a passion is Harry trying to use Sectumsempra against him. He does bring up James once again when he's in a towering rage, but I think that was because he was reminded of James both by Harry's appearance and his behaviour (attacking Snape with spells of his own invention). I really do not think he blames James for the point that his life has reached. It's more about Harry. At that moment he and Harry seem to hate each other more than anyone else in the whole world.
Do we really know that James actually started it all? We mainly have Snape's memories. Is it remotely possible that they are one-sided? Dumbledore, after all, compared James and Snape's animosity to that between Draco and Harry. He didn't seem to think James was as terrible as Snape makes him out to be. (Solitaire)
But the fact is that it is the author who has decided to show us James through Snape's memories, and does not choose to directly show us James in a positive light. And she does not show us anything to make us doubt Snape's version of the events. As for Pensieve memories, they are supposed to be absolutely unbiased, so even if Harry had seen James's memory of The Underpants Attack (thanks to Mrs. Sirius for this alternative name for SWM ) and the tripping Snape on the train incident, he would still have seen the same thing.
so I am sticking with Remus's statement that Snape gave as good as he got. (Solitaire)
Why automatically assume Lupin was lying when he said Snape "gave as good as he got"? (Quinn)
I'm pretty sure Snape gave as good as he got, and I'm glad that he did. When a bunch of kids pick on you and the teachers do not do anything about it, isn't it better to stand up to them and fight back instead of taking things lying down? It's the kids who pick on the lone kid who are to be blamed, not the kid who's fighting back. The phrase 'gave as good as he got' implies that he first 'got' before he 'gave'.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 25, 2008 2:16 pm (#13 of 2988)
Please excuse me for nitpicking Solitaire's comments.
While I agree that the memories suggest James was the instigator of everything ... these are still Snape's memories. A look into James's Pensieve might have shown something different,
Mona amon pretty much says what I was thinking in post 12. Pensieve memories are unbiased.
but we don't have access to James's memories, so I am sticking with Remus's statement that Snape gave as good as he got.
I have no problem believing that Snape gave as good as he good. As Mona amon says it implies he first got before he gave.
Also, I think it is highly unlikely that any kids entering Hogwarts--other than Muggle-borns like Lily--would not have a pretty good idea of what Voldemort has been up to. Many of them have probably lost friends or family by that point. Most of the kids entering with Harry certainly know ... and Voldy's killing sprees started well before James, Snape, and their peers began school.
I disagree slightly with this. In 1981 Dumbledore says 'We've had precious little to celebrate these last 11 years.' I take this to mean that although Dumbledore may have known Tom's true colors, the bulk of the wizarding world had no clue until after 1970 which is when James and Lily first started Hogwarts. Tom may have recruited his Death Eaters twenty years before but I don't think they were too open until after 1970.
And although Voldemort may have had his first public death known in 1970, I don't think it wasn't until a few years later that people became fearful mainly because the Ministry even back then couldn't stop Voldemort or any of his Death Eaters. Also I think the murders and mayhem may have started slowly so that even by year 2, there may not have been any students affected personally by any deaths caused by Voldemort.
In fact, Snape obviously joins "the dark side" while he is still in school and receiving input against it from his one true friend--Lily.
If by joining you mean Snape has the Dark Mark, I think not. I think the students would have feared Dumbledore more and waited till they graduated to become Death Eaters.
Julia H. - Jul 25, 2008 2:49 pm (#14 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 3:54 pm
I don't think Snape had the Dark Mark while in school either. We have no evidence for it. In HBP, most people Harry talks to about Malfoy do not believe Voldemort would recruit a 16-year-old. Now, of course, we know he did recruit Draco but we also know that it was a special case: he wanted to punish Lucius for his mistake (and he could not reach him personally). Adults who have some experience fighting against the dark side seem to think that LV does not normally recruit school-age boys and they probably base this belief on what they know about LV from the earlier war. That makes it improbable that LV would have recruited groups of boys still at Hogwarts in those days.
But whatever "Snape joining the dark side" means, at the age of 11, when he chose Slytherin, he was just an 11-year-old kid, neglected and poor and badly cared for, but not a miniature DE. All he seemed to want was a friend, success at school and the long-awaited entrance to the "real" wizarding world, where he would leave behind all the disadvantages he had to face at home. He came under the influence of budding DE's at Hogwarts (right under DD's nose and Slughorn's nose, I never understood this), who may have accepted him as one of their house, while the "good guys" regularly attacked him, even tortured and humiliated him. It is true, Lily warned him but she was also influenced by the same "good guys", who did not seem to be likely to tolerate Snape if he had wanted to be their friend instead of Mulciber's. If somebody is insecure and has found very little acceptance in life, he will not fight very hard to be accepted by those who hate him when there are others who are more ready to accept him. It is very bad when this other group happens to be the worst possible one but such groups often find new followers among those who find no "place" elsewhere.
Yes, everyone knows that Snape at some point joined the dark side. The point that some of us are trying to make is that the "good guys" did what they could to further push him into the wrong direction.
Solitaire - Jul 25, 2008 3:42 pm (#15 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 4:46 pm
I wasn't going to say anything more on this thread, but I must. I looked at that exchange in the train once more, very closely, and I saw that James and his friends never paid a bit of attention to Lily and Snape at all ... until Snape said the word Slytherin. Whatever this hatred between them turned into, it started out because of James's bias against Slytherin and Snape's insinuation that Gryffindors were all brawn and no brains. In other words, it began as name-calling. No spells or tormenting took place here.
Later, in one of their last exchanges, Lily also refers to Snape and his friends as "You and your precious little Death Eater friends--you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that is what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" She sees that they are already identifying with the DEs, and she is seeing them as such, even when they are still in school. And this isn't a sudden thing, because she says, "I've been making excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you." And given the way she refers to James (as an arrogant toerag), I do not think the Marauders are the friends to whom she is referring.
In that same conversation, following that accusation from Lily ... Snape "opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking." Why did he close it? Was it because she was right, or because, perhaps, he was already a Death Eater? When did Snape take the Mark? Do we know? Surely some took the mark while still in school. I really do not believe we can rule out this possibility.
Snape's real problem with his CHOICE is that he tries to justify his Dark Arts/DE activities by comparing them to what James and the Marauders are doing--mainly breaking school rules. He doesn't get that Lily isn't rejecting him in favor of James (not at this point, anyway) ... she is rejecting him for the CHOICES he is making ... and has already made. Snape blames James for his loss of Lily's friendship, when he lost it himself, without any "help" from James. As to the "good guys" trying to push him into the wrong direction ... I do not buy it. I don't think they want him to become a DE. This is a story about CHOICES, and Snape makes a bad one, even though his best friend encourages him NOT to take that step. I think Snape CHOSE the Dark Arts, because they fascinated him. He CHOSE the way that would allow him to pursue them, but he got more than he bargained for ... and he lived to regret that CHOICE.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 25, 2008 3:59 pm (#16 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 5:09 pm
"You and your precious little Death Eater friends--you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that is what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" (Lily)
The problem with Snape's part in this discussion and one other where he doesn't answer Lily and seems to be stumbling to say anything, is that we can't know whether Snape has no answer, or only bad answers, or whether it's partly that Lily won't give him a chance to answer - because she doesn't, after all, really give him a chance to answer in those particular conversations.
Snape's real problem with his CHOICE is that he tries to justify his Dark Arts/DE activities by comparing them to what James and the Marauders are doing--mainly breaking school rules. (Solitiare)
As I recall, the comparison isn't about the Death Eater activities, but the Dark "joke" Mulciber played on Mary McDonald and the fact that Lily is accusing Snape of having such nasty friends. And he is saying basically, what's the difference between a friend who does this sort of Dark joke and the Marauders? In other words, how is Mulciber - at that point, not later as a DE - worse than Sirius and James? And I don't think the focus is on comparing use of Dark Arts for nasty pranks to some guys out breaking school rulls like curfew or whatever, but comparing the use of Dark Arts for nasty pranks to some guys who are bullying, tormenting, and humiliating others just because they're bored. And Lily has no answer, which is one of the biggest weaknesses, in my opinion, of DH and the series in general, that JKR can't tell us why the cruelty of the "good" guys is different from the cruelty of the bad guys.
Frankly, I think that JKR probably doesn't see the cruelty of the "good guys" as any better than the cruelty of the bad guys, but she doesn't show us that clearly. It's just that I can't believe that she'd write such similar actions between her good guys and bad guys and not see it and not intend that we see it. Such as Harry and friends hexing Draco and friends into unconsciousness and leaving them in the corrider of the Hogwarts Express for hours -- all over some insults; and then again the next year; and then the next year the "bad guy" Draco breaks Harry's nose and leaves him on the train. And did JKR really think Harry's actions were okay because he's a "good guy" while Draco's actions were to show us how bad he was? I just can't believe that.
Ditto for the Marauders. I personally don't think we're meant to believe they were particularly good, just that they chose the side of the Order which happened to be one of their good choices, amongst a bunch of bad choices. Any more than we're to believe that "good guys" can hate werewolves or giants and it doesn't affect their innate "goodness" whereas "bad guys" hate for muggleborns is evidence of their evil. My hope is that JKR is trying to show that the line between "good guys" and "bad guys" isn't drawn by a label like "Dark Arts" but by real actions, attitudes, and ultimately the power of positive love.
I agree that the Marauders weren't trying to push Snape toward the Dark side, but I do think that the entire situation at Hogwarts -- lack of guidance for Slytherins from the teachers and head of house, unrestrained (by the school) bullying of Snape by the Marauders, the general alienation of Slytherin by the rest of the houses, etc., -- very strongly contributed toward Snape's downward spiral toward the Dark and the DEs.
Solitaire - Jul 25, 2008 4:39 pm (#17 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 5:41 pm
the general alienation of Slytherin by the rest of the houses
I believe Slytherins alienate themselves with all of their pureblood drivel. All of the houses have a sort of rivalry among themselves, but when Slytherin is pitted against any of the other three Houses, the other two support Slytherin's opponent. This strong feeling against Slytherin has to be grounded in more than just Salazar Slytherin's exit from Hogwarts. It is deeper than a mere "intramural rivalry," and it didn't start with James and Snape.
When Hagrid says that "there's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't from Slytherin," we chalk it up as a sweeping generalization, especially when we learn about Peter Pettigrew, the Gryffindor who betrayed his friends. Still, all generalizations come from somewhere. How did this one get started? Why do so many parents seem to instill a fear and wariness of Slytherin into their kids?
As to Lily not giving Snape time to respond ... Snape is hardly backward about speaking his mind. I think that Snape would have said what he wanted to say, if he'd had anything to say for himself that was different than the ineffective arguments he'd offered thus far. It's not like Lily was going to give him detention for interrupting her.
I still say ... well, never mind. Nothing that has been said thus far has changed my mind ... or yours. As I've said before, we will have to agree to disagree.
Solitaire
PeskyPixie - Jul 25, 2008 4:53 pm (#18 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 5:54 pm
Actually, I don't blame Snape for sticking up for himself on the first train ride. James has no reason to start picking on another kid just because he wants to be in a House which is the rival House of the one James's family tends to belong to. Snape is not a wimp, so he sticks up for himself. He does not start the confrontation, but once his values are dismissed by James he lets James know that he does not care for James' preferences either. I don't understand how Snape is at fault here. Just because James will one day be Harry Potter's father and Snape does not grow up to be Harry's greatest fan does not mean that we need to accuse Snape for sticking up for himself and not acting the part of victim. He's a little scrapper, and thus, an enmity develops between he and the Marauders.
After this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Snape started a few confrontations with the Marauders, but by that time the enmity is already established.
mona amon - Jul 25, 2008 9:54 pm (#19 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 11:10 pm
Exactly! I lay the entire blame for the Snape-Marauders enemity on the Marauders. I'd like to quote from the Bloomsbury Web Chat-
Rachel Nell: Jkr, thank you for such amazing books! I would like to know how come noone seemed to know that lily and snape were friends in school they were obviously meeting for chats, etc didnt james know their past
J.K. Rowling: Thank you for your thank you!
J.K. Rowling: Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known.
J.K. Rowling: James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James' behaviour to Snape.
I couldn't help noticing that she uses the words 'James' behaviour to Snape' and not 'their behaviour towards each other'.
As to Lily not giving Snape time to respond ... Snape is hardly backward about speaking his mind. I think that Snape would have said what he wanted to say, if he'd had anything to say for himself that was different than the ineffective arguments he'd offered thus far. It's not like Lily was going to give him detention for interrupting her. (Solitaire)
LOL, I rarely agree with Soli about anything on the Snape thread, but I can definitely agree with this. Snape couldn't respond because he had absolutely nothing to say in his defence, and not because Lily didn't give him time to say it. If JKR had wanted us to believe that it he was on the verge of giving up the Dark side for Lily, she would have made it a lot more clear.
I also disagree that James had any major role in pushing him towards Voldemort and the DE's. If we are a product of our genes and our environment, then James was of course a part of Snape's environment, but there were so many other factors- his innate fascination with the Dark Arts, his unhappy home life, his misguided desire to be sorted into Slytherin and so on. What I'm trying to say is that I believe Snape would have become a DE even if James had never existed.
Snape blames James for his loss of Lily's friendship, (Solitaire)
But I disagree with this. Snape never puts the blame on James for his loss of Lily's friendship, as far as I can remember.
Solitaire - Jul 25, 2008 10:22 pm (#20 of 2988)
He does blame James, Mona. He sees James as the reason he lost Lily, I believe. He seems to see her as rejecting him because of James ... not because of his interest in the Dark Arts. By the end of his life he may come to see more clearly, but I'm not sure. In his last conversations with Dumbledore (The Prince's Tale) he references James's arrogance, rule breaking, and other faults yet again, pasting them onto Harry. Even if James had been everything Snape said he was, there was still no excuse for Snape to treat Harry as he did. If James was so horrible to him, why wasn't he, an adult, more compassionate toward Harry? I can't give him a pass on his treatment of Harry just because James gave him a rough time. Sorry, Snape ... get over it!
PeskyPixie - Jul 25, 2008 11:10 pm (#21 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 12:32 am
No one gives him a 'pass' on his treatment of Harry, Soli. Snape just happens to be one of the characters about whom JKR has given us a lot of material, plus he has a contradicting nature. It's interesting to try to figure out why he does the things he does. It's also very interesting to see how the same material influences different people.
I personally feel for him until he makes the decision of joining the Death Eaters. Afterwards, no, he is never nice to Harry, but he saves his life many times, so I find it hard to claim that he does more damage to Harry than good.
Also, sometimes it's very easy to tell someone to 'get over it.' Snape lives at Hogwarts and Spinners End, both of which are places where he has easy access to sad memories. Circumstances (many of which are influenced by his choices as a messed up teen) make a fresh start nearly impossible for him.
I don't approve of his treatment of Harry, but I also acknowledge that he is an emotionally damaged person who should not be in a position of authority over him to begin with ... oh, let's face it, Snape should not be a teacher to absolute beginners, period. He's the guy you should do your grad studies with ... and even that if you are a gifted student who is not an insufferable know-it-all.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 26, 2008 1:02 am (#22 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 2:03 am
James's best friend had got Snape into danger - Julia
In my view, Snape, and Snape alone, got Snape into danger.
it is precisely this one-sided "bragging" afterwards... - Julia
Which is only an assumption. There is nothing in the text to indicate that this is the way in which the story was related to Lily. For all we know, James never said a word. Recall Dumbledore's remark to Harry in PS/SS: "What happened between you and Professor Quirrell is a complete secret. So, naturally the whole school knows."
It's not a question of "automatically" assuming anything, instead it is a process of analyzing what story is more likely to be right - Wynnleaf
Well, in my own analysis of the story, I don't recall Remus lying to Harry. True, he could have just explained about the Map, but the way he words his explanation to Harry ("They would have wanted to lure you...") tells me that, for Remus, the Marauders days are long gone. He is a completely different person, who knows how wrong some of the things they did were. He knows he was wrong to lie to Dumbledore in those days, and to keep lying to him now. It is a coping skill Remus has extreme difficulty overcoming. But I don't remember him every lying to Harry about anything.
the comparison isn't about the Death Eater activities, but the Dark "joke" Mulciber played on Mary McDonald and the fact that Lily is accusing Snape of having such nasty friends. - Wynnleaf
The people he hangs around with are simply an indication of the path he is on, which is, I believe, the point Lily was tying to make.
I believe Snape would have become a DE even if James had never existed. - Mona Amon
Agreed. He seems to have had his whole career as a wizard pretty well mapped out when he was discussing it with Lily. I don't necessarily mean that "join Death Eaters" was on his list. But his interest in the Dark Arts would have led him there regardless of James or anyone else.
James has no reason to start picking on another kid just because he wants to be in a House which is the rival House of the one James's family tends to belong to. - Pesky Pixie
I found this to be a very realistic interaction between boys, particularly of that age. Boys bond through aggression: rough-housing and insults. Through this, there is an unconscious sort of ritual over establishing a hierarchy of dominance.
James is clearly taking the Alpha position. He is confident in who he is. He doesn't like Slytherin (for whatever reason. I think it likely that he would have heard from his parents about the pure-blood philosophy and/or Dark Arts surrounding it, for example) so when he hears Snape mention this, he probably feels dubious about Snape as well. What kind of a person would want to be in Slytherin after all?
He tests Sirius on the matter ("I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"). Fortunately, Sirius seems to willingly take the Beta position. "And I thought you seemed all right!" Sirius could have taken offense at this remark, but because he laughs, he shows he is equally interested in bonding with James ("Maybe I'll break [family] tradition"), who only wants to be in the same House as his dad.
But Snape immediately takes offense - understandable. But in doing so, he gives James the power. Snape tries to put himself on a higher plain with the "tsk-ing" of James's desire to follow in his father's footsteps ("Got a problem with that?"). Snape could have simply said no, he didn't have a problem with James wanting to be in Gryffindor and James would probably not have paid him any more attention. There's nothing more to be said to that answer, really. But instead Snape adds, (quite unnecessarily, in my opinion) "If you'd rather be brawny than brainy". Like Sirius, he sets the tone for his relationship with James by the way he responds to James's line of inquiry.
Man, I hope at least some of this makes sense.
Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2008 2:31 am (#23 of 2988)
Solitaire and QC, well said.
Soul Search - Jul 26, 2008 4:39 am (#24 of 2988)
We have speculated that James pushed Snape further into the Death Eater camp, but could the reverse be true? No doubt, Lily was the reason James cleaned up his act a bit, but was it Snape that pushed James all the way to the Order of the Pheonix?
In GoF, Sirius doesn't seem to know Snape was a Death Eater, or that Snape had a dark mark. This seems to contradict Lily's comments to Snape in the Deathly Hallows "The Prince's Tale" scene in Gryffindor tower.
wynnleaf - Jul 26, 2008 5:42 am (#25 of 2988)
Without James, would Snape have joined the DEs? Good question.
JKR said that one reason Snape joined up was because of thinking that Lily would be impressed by his being this powerful, dark wizard. Why would Snape think that? At this point, I do think that James unknowingly plays a part. Snape seems to recognize in The Prince's Tale scenes that Lily is attracted to James. He makes comments sometimes showing that he's concerned that she's interested in James.
the comparison isn't about the Death Eater activities, but the Dark "joke" Mulciber played on Mary McDonald and the fact that Lily is accusing Snape of having such nasty friends. - Wynnleaf
The people he hangs around with are simply an indication of the path he is on, which is, I believe, the point Lily was tying to make. (Quinn)
Yes, but it's not the point Snape was making. Snape was basically saying that he doesn't see the difference in the way the Marauders act and the way the people act who Snape hangs out with. If Snape thinks that Lily is attracted to James (which she is), and that the friends Snape is cultivating are similar to the Marauders, then that helps us understand why Snape thought becoming a powerful, Dark wizard would appeal to Lily. Sure, Lily says she despises this, but she also says she dislikes the way the Marauders act. Yet she was still attracted to James and ended up dating James anyway, even though the only real change James seems to have made is in figuring out how to conceal his continuing bad behavior (bullying Snape, reckless behavior, encouraging a werewolf to run free over the countryside with numerous "near misses"). We don't actually get shown any indication that James changed, and Lily still fell for him.
So even though James had no intention of pushing Snape toward the DEs, nor do I think his actions directly pushed Snape that way, I do think that the fact that James existed as a bullying jerk, happy to torment and humiliate others, and that Lily was attracted to him, was a strong added inducement for Snape to be interested in becoming a powerful dark wizard. Because remember that young Snape didn't see a real difference between being a powerful dark wizard and being a powerful cruel bullying wizard.
Edited Jul 24, 2008 11:50 am
"Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" It's pretty much what Ron said on his and Harry's first trip. (Solitaire)
It is different because Ron was giving friendly advice while James was already judging Snape. Actually James's words are similar to Draco's as he tells Harry (when they meet for the first time) what it would be like to be sorted into Hufflepuff.
I don't know how much 11-year-old James knew about Voldemort and his Slytherin connections (maybe he did a lot but we are never told), however, in this scene, it seems James wants to be a Gryffindor because his father was a Gryffindor as well (that is what he says). It is a good reason but then Snape wants to be in Slytherin because he thinks (again that is what he says) it is a place for those who have brains. Nobody ever seems to be telling him that this is the house where wizards go wrong - and who would think they have a house precisely for that? (Harry finds out that his parents' murderer was a Slytherin and he also meets Draco before the sorting ceremony, so for him it is pretty obvious that Slytherin is a bad place.) Snape the child is described as "small and stringy", which to me in itself explains why he does not want to go to a house for the "brawny" (as he seems to think).
After this meeting with James and Sirius, Snape will not like Gryffindor house any more. I think it is James who starts the whole exchange. Yes, Snape then makes a small disparaging noise and the "brainy and brawny" comment but Sirius calls him "Snivellus" and James tries to trip him - to me James and Sirius seem to be more aggressive than Snape.
I still believe one was as flawed as the other, and over the years, Snape probably cursed James as often as James cursed him.
Yes, I can agree with that. Still, the scenes we get to see (the train scene and the Worst Memory scene) show James and Sirius as the aggressors (who start the conflict), so I think it suggests that they are on the whole more responsible for this relationship of deep enmity than Snape. (We also know they tend to hex other people as well.) But when the enmity is already there, Snape in all probability gives as well as he gets (I cannot blame him any more than I blame Harry in his relationship with Draco) - but then again it is indicated that the Marauders attack him as a group (or at least as a pair), while Snape seems to be, as a rule, alone. So if he does give as much as he gets, he must be really good at fighting.
On the other hand, I don't think the post that started this discussion (I hope I understood what Madam Pince wanted to say) was saying that James was all bad and Snape was all good. We have tried to compare them many times. I think the post was about the influence James and this enmity had on Snape's life. IMO, the new question this post has brought up is not the question of who is more to blame but the question of this (bad) influence in itself: just to what extent the behaviour of James pushed Snape's life into the wrong direction? (We love to discuss Snape's flaws and bad choices and responsibility but this is now another aspect of his life.)
Did James's behaviour influence how other students saw Snape?
We know James and Sirius were "popular" (though I don't think the many students they hexed really liked them so much but they probably did not dare to voice their opinions very loudly). They were confident, successful, good-looking and easy-going. Snape, whose social and family background was much, much worse than James's, started with a clear disadvantage. In the Worst Memory Scene, a lot of people laugh at him and nobody stops the Marauders until Lily appears. James is looking around, quite clearly trying to entertain the audience. (I must confess I find this aspect of his behaviour especially disgusting.)
At school, Harry had no one. Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his baggy old clothes and broken glasses, and nobody liked to disagree with Dudley's gang. (PS, Ch.2.)
I think in a way like this, James may have had an influence on Snape's relationship with other students. Notice that Sirius calls Snape an "oddball" and above is "odd Harry Potter in his baggy old clothes". And isn't Snape laughed at because of his clothes? The resemblance cannot be an accident. (If Snape was indeed isolated from most other students - both as a poor, insecure "oddball" and as the favourite "victim" of the most popular and aggressive group of students - his clinging to those who did not mind him, i.e., the Slytherin gang, is more understandable.)
Did James influence Lily's opinion of Snape? I think he did.
After the Prank, Snape was not allowed to tell his version of it because of Lupin's secret. Yet, Lily clearly heard the Gryffindor version from someone (heroic James saving Snape from "whatever's down there" with the probable omission of the part Sirius had played or that they all would have been in great trouble if anything had happened to Snape). Then she thought Snape was "ungrateful".
In the Worst Memory Scene, Snape's dignity is crushed in front of the girl he loves and whose admiration he would like to win. Then in his rage and humiliation (not only is he hanging upside down and is being laughed at but at the same time James is asking Lily to go out with him), he calls her a Mudblood. He should not have done it and he probably would not have done it if he had not been provoked in such a situation. So, yes, James played a part in their breaking up. No, I am not putting all the blame on James but from Snape's point of view, James was a person who did everything in his power (and with great success) to ruin Snape's life.
BTW, James may not have thought he was ruining Snape's life. He may not ever have thought that his actions had long-term effects on Snape or that he had a responsibility there. But that did not count much from Snape's point of view.
Soul Search - Jul 24, 2008 10:42 am (#2 of 2988)
Good assessment, Julia H. I particularily liked citing Snape's early childhood with Harry's. JKR even uses the same words to describe them, so the similarity must be intentional. After the worst memory scene Harry even compares James with Dudley, further suggesting Harry thought James was "bullying" Snape.
Maybe we are seeing her showing that two kids with similar, less than ideal, backgrounds can turn out differently. Choices again, although we don't know exactly what choices were initially made.
Incidently, prior to the worst memory scene, both Harry and Snape had seen bits of the other's childhood in the Occulmency lessons. Were they both supposed to have made the comparison. Harry did appear to, briefly, develop some compassion for Snape. Did Snape, for Harry, as well?
Julia H. - Jul 24, 2008 3:03 pm (#3 of 2988)
Edited Jul 24, 2008 4:23 pm
Interesting question, Soul Search. Once again, the situation is that we can see into Harry's mind but not into Snape's so we can only make guesses as always.
I think Dryleaves mentioned the following earlier (I liked her explanation and I am paraphrasing it now): It is curious when Harry accidentally breaks into Snape's mind, he finds his childhood memories instead of some recent ones. One would think, since this instance of Harry's legilimency is more or less accidental (he only wants to defend himself) and probably not a very "deep" type, he would see something that is in the foreground of Snape's mind at that moment. This indicates that Snape is just thinking about his own bleak childhood. Why? A very possible explanation is that, as he sees Harry's childhood memories, he is reminded of his own childhood memories, which means he does seem to make the comparison at some level at least.
When he compliments Harry - granted, in his own way - after Harry's first attempt during the first lesson, it might be a reaction to seeing Harry's sad memories for the first time and feeling some kind of ... hm ... sympathy (? which probably vanishes when Harry next starts to speak but still...). (Of course, it is just guesswork again.) Then we learn that later Snape "kept calling forth" lots of images from Harry's childhood ... I wonder if he is interested and wants to find out more.
When Snape talks about "weak people" and "wallowing in sad memories" so passionately, I have the impression that he is talking about his own earlier experiences, about himself - trying to warn Harry to avoid certain mistakes. (Harry does not suspect this.) But then this is an extraordinary moment in their relationship: Snape is opening up a little bit, talking to Harry about himself, his own feelings or experiences; as an adult, trying to teach the kid how to be wiser, more careful than he was. I think they are probably closer to each other at that moment (at least as far as Snape is concerned) than any other time before the "look at me" scene.
Solitaire - Jul 24, 2008 4:19 pm (#4 of 2988)
Edited Jul 24, 2008 5:23 pm
Still, the scenes we get to see (the train scene and the Worst Memory scene) show James and Sirius as the aggressors (who start the conflict), so I think it suggests that they are on the whole more responsible for this relationship of deep enmity than Snape.
While I agree that the memories suggest James was the instigator of everything ... these are still Snape's memories. A look into James's Pensieve might have shown something different, but we don't have access to James's memories, so I am sticking with Remus's statement that Snape gave as good as he got. Also, I think it is highly unlikely that any kids entering Hogwarts--other than Muggle-borns like Lily--would not have a pretty good idea of what Voldemort has been up to. Many of them have probably lost friends or family by that point. Most of the kids entering with Harry certainly know ... and Voldy's killing sprees started well before James, Snape, and their peers began school. In fact, Snape obviously joins "the dark side" while he is still in school and receiving input against it from his one true friend--Lily.
Lily clearly heard the Gryffindor version from someone (heroic James saving Snape from "whatever's down there" with the probable omission of the part Sirius had played or that they all would have been in great trouble if anything had happened to Snape). Then she thought Snape was "ungrateful".
I can't imagine Dumbledore would allow the participants in this little debacle to make this public, given the nature of Lupin's "furry little problem" and the means to which he has gone to keep it quiet. I'm betting the Marauders got detention over this prank, which I agree was not too funny. That may be how she found out. Remus was a prefect that year, and Lily may have been one, as well ... although that is just a guess, based on her being head girl. But it still seems as though James had nothing to do with that whole prank other than finding out about it and trying to stop it. Granted, he probably did it more for the sake of Sirius and the privacy of Remus than for Snape's safety ... although hating someone and wanting them dead (or soul-sucked, like Snape did Sirius) are 2 different things. But he did step in and save him, and that alone would have given away Sirius's role in things. So as for minimizing Sirius's role, I don't think James would have been able to do that.
Snape is opening up a little bit, talking to Harry about himself, his own feelings or experiences; as an adult, trying to teach the kid how to be wiser, more careful than he was.
The only problem is that the way he presents the information makes Harry look and feel like a stupid fool who can't control his emotions. And he takes every opportunity to make Harry feel as worthless as he possibly can. I could go on, but there are plenty of my posts on the archived Snape threads that detail my feelings about his teaching techniques. Snape is so big on telling Harry to control his emotions that he forgets to control his own ... and he loses many opportunities to really reach Harry. It is a tribute to Harry's forgiving heart and his ability to stay focused (at last!) on the task before him that he is able to put aside his animosity and really see and hear those final memories Snape gives him. It is a further tribute to his heart that he is finally able to give Snape his due in the end, before all of the people who know how hard Snape has made Harry's life at Hogwarts.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 24, 2008 8:31 pm (#5 of 2988)
Edited Jul 24, 2008 9:33 pm
I am sticking with Remus's statement that Snape gave as good as he got. Also, I think it is highly unlikely that any kids entering Hogwarts--other than Muggle-borns like Lily--would not have a pretty good idea of what Voldemort has been up to. (Solitaire)
The problem with the evidence that Snape "gave as good as he got" is that the only person who says this is one of the gang that bullied Snape and was a person who has a history in the books of skewing comments, covering up information, or flat out lying in order to keep the goodwill of others. Given that Harry is being somewhat accusatory toward Remus and Sirius at the moment, and given Remus' tendency to attempt to keep good will, it's all too likely that Remus once again fudged the truth to keep Harry's goodwill. After all, if he'd be willing to risk the safety of hundreds of kids just to keep DD's goodwill, why not risk nothing and fudge the truth to keep Harry's goodwill?
If JKR wanted to show us that that Snape attacked James just as much as James attacked him, or had Slytherin friends that helped him attack the Marauders or defend himself, she could easily have done so by simply referring to such events, including a note in a detention file, having some other character like another teacher or Dumbledore or Slughorn refer to something like that, or include some such mention of it in The Prince's Tale.
As for what children would have known about Voldemort when James and Snape entered Hogwarts, it's rather murky. JKR has DD and McGonagall, at the first of PS/SS comment on the length of time they'd been dealing with LV. But she also had Sirius comment that his parents had been supporters of LV and (even though this was a very Dark family) didn't really realize the extent to which he was going in his activities. So I don't think it was clearcut in the series exactly when LV and his followers started killing and torturing people outright, without bothering to keep it a secret.
And he takes every opportunity to make Harry feel as worthless as he possibly can. (Solitiare)
I never notice Harry feeling worthless due to Snape's comments, regardless of Snape's intent -- Neville, perhaps, but not Harry. Further, while I definitely agree that Snape says a great deal that is insulting and sometimes downright cruel, the phrase "he takes every opportunity" suggests that Snape is specifically intending to make Harry feel worthless. In the occlumency lessons, and in particular the part about wearing one's heart on one's sleeve, I did not feel that Snape's outburst had any particular intent to make Harry feel bad, nor particularly worthless, but was a spontaneous outburst stemming from Snape's own feelings about himself.
Solitaire - Jul 24, 2008 8:40 pm (#6 of 2988)
I know how you feel, Wynnleaf. I do not think we will EVER agree about anything connected with Snape and Remus. Fortunately, it doesn't matter, does it?
PeskyPixie - Jul 24, 2008 8:52 pm (#7 of 2988)
It may not matter, Soli, but it sure is a lot of fun! I look forward to joining this discussion soon. Meanwhile, I've posted the next part of my epilogue.
Solitaire - Jul 24, 2008 9:18 pm (#8 of 2988)
I think you, as a Snape fan, will like it, Pesky. I think it's time for me to take a Snape break, however. I have to do it periodically, and I think the time has come once again.
I'm more interested in some of the other threads that are starting to become active again with the rereads.
Solitaire
Quinn Crockett - Jul 25, 2008 12:10 am (#9 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 1:11 am
Lily clearly heard the Gryffindor version from someone (heroic James saving Snape from "whatever's down there" with the probable omission of the part Sirius had played...
Why automatically assume James wasn't telling the truth? We saw Harry save Draco, his arch-nemesis, more than once simply because it was the right thing to do. As much as they despised each other, when it came down to it, Harry would never let Draco die if he could do something about it. We saw Snape threaten both Sirius and Lupin with Dementors, but ultimately reason prevailed and he didn't go through with it. Why should James, even as a teenager, be any different?
Why automatically assume Lupin was lying when he said Snape "gave as good as he got"? After all, Snape did skulk around after the Marauders for the sole purpose of trying to get them expelled. Even Lily thinks he's "so obsessed with them". And he was also stupid enough to actually listen to someone whom he regarded as a mortal enemy. He really has no one but himself to blame for "the Prank".
I mean, if someone I regularly got into fights with suddenly told me, "Well if you're so curious about where my buddy's going, why don't you just tag along and see?" personally, I would assume that he was sending me into a trap of some kind. So, would I listen to this guy, who routinely attacks me without warning, and go? Absolutely not!
I agree that Snape does "take every opportunity to make Harry feel worthless". But because Harry has such high self-esteem that it never turns out that way. Snape certainly does deliberately push all of Harry's buttons.
Julia H. - Jul 25, 2008 12:43 am (#10 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 2:22 am
While I agree that the memories suggest James was the instigator of everything ... these are still Snape's memories. A look into James's Pensieve might have shown something different, but we don't have access to James's memories... (Solitaire)
Still, it was JKR's decision to show situations in which James and Sirius attacked Snape and none in which Snape attacked them. She may not have meant to say that it was always James and Sirius who started but she certainly gave me the impression that it was more typical than Snape starting the conflict. Snape also mentions the "four-on-one" situation... I think Remus's "gave as good as he got" comment does not specify anything about how the fights started: I think Snape could give as good as he got even when he was attacked. But again, I am not saying it was always the Marauders who attacked only that their responsibility seems to be greater in the overall conflict.
I think it is highly unlikely that any kids entering Hogwarts--other than Muggle-borns like Lily--would not have a pretty good idea of what Voldemort has been up to.
Yet, nothing indicates that 11-year-old Snape knew. Regulus certainly did not see it clearly in his Hogwarts years and he was a bit younger than Snape. BTW, even if Snape was not muggle-born, his family seems to have been on the periphery of the wizarding community - we never know what contacts he had with his mother's family, for example, - while the Potters and the Blacks were certainly in a much better social position and were probably better informed. Yet, even the Blacks underestimated Voldemort in the years well after Snape entered Hogwarts.
11-year-old Snape only wanted to be in Slytherin house, it is not like he wanted to join Voldemort right then. Nowhere is indicated that Snape wanted to be in Slytherin because it was such an evil place.
Snape's spontaneous outburst stemming from Snape's own feelings about himself. (wynnleaf)
Yes, it was spontaneous and I did not say that Harry understood it or that it made Harry feel particularly good. I only said that given Snape's basic relationship with Harry, it is remarkable that here he seems to be stepping over the barrier between them, truly trying to help Harry, truly making a comparison between them and pouring some of his feelings about himself, however enigmatically, in front of Harry because he knows Harry is in danger. It is only a little step and Harry only understands that Snape is calling him "weak", which is a communication problem, but Snape does not seem to talk about these feelings to anyone at all and yet now these words burst out of him in front of Harry and exclusively for Harry's sake. Even if he does not achieve much with this, at this moment he manages to temporarily overcome a serious psychological obstacle fixed by long years of solitude and unhealing wounds.
Why automatically assume James wasn't telling the truth? (Quinn)
I assume James told the story in the way that was the best for him and the worst for Snape. He may not have lied directly but Lily does not seem to know anything about Sirius's behaviour - or do you think she knows Sirius sent her best friend knowingly into mortal danger and does not find it wrong? And she seems to think that James went after Snape exclusively for Snape's sake (who "somehow" got into danger) and does not seem to know that Sirius and Lupin were getting into trouble as well. I did not say James told a direct lie, I only said his story was one-sided, while Snape could not tell his own version without revealing Lupin's secret and he could not do that. The point I was making was James influencing Lily's opinion about Snape when Snape could not very well defend himself. Even if James was telling (part of) the truth, he was bragging when he should have been silent about the whole thing (for Lupin's sake).
As much as they despised each other, when it came down to it, Harry would never let Draco die if he could do something about it.
It is true but I still see differences: James's best friend had got Snape into danger and he was saving Sirius and Lupin (and perhaps even himself) as much as Snape. That is all fine, of course, but it is precisely this one-sided "bragging" afterwards to the girl they both liked (and maybe to others) that discredits the "noble rival" notion of James in my eyes. Harry never does anything like that.
wynnleaf - Jul 25, 2008 4:58 am (#11 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 5:58 am
Why automatically assume James wasn't telling the truth? (Quinn)
I don't think anyone is assuming James directly lied to Lily, but we don't actually have a quote of what he said to her. All we've got are her comments in order to give us some idea of the story she was hearing. And Lily doesn't seem to know about anything other than James somehow saving Snape's life, but nothing about Sirius being in anyway involved in putting Snape's life at risk. Therefore the only thing we know that someone passed along to her was a story of James' heroism. We don't know if James told people, or other Marauders, or what. Whoever it was didn't give Lily the whole picture, only the parts that made James look good and Snape look bad.
Why automatically assume Lupin was lying when he said Snape "gave as good as he got"? (Quinn)
It's not a question of "automatically" assuming anything, instead it is a process of analyzing what story is more likely to be right -- the evidence of a man known to lie and cover up to keep someone's goodwill or the body of scenes that JKR gives us that only show the Marauder's being the instigators in altercations with Snape combined with Snape's own comments that they only attacked several against one. Snape is often insulting and cruel, but we don't see evidence that he directly lies to Harry or anyone else except in spying situations as with lying to Bella, so his word tends to have a better history of sincerity, albeit often insulting, than Lupin's word.
After all, Snape did skulk around after the Marauders for the sole purpose of trying to get them expelled. Even Lily thinks he's "so obsessed with them". (Quinn)
I always felt this was a completely valid response to bullies when the school seemed unable to stop the bullying. If a group of students were always starting fights with you and attacking you, including surprise attacks, wouldn't you want them gone from the school? The fact that Snape wanted them expelled doesn't give us any evidence that he was actively out initiating attacks on them or instigating fights.
mona amon - Jul 25, 2008 6:12 am (#12 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 7:31 am
I was struck by two things -- Snape's rage, and the fact that Snape mentioned James twice during the scene. Why in the world would he be thinking of James at a time like this? Seems like he'd have a lot of other stuff on his mind -- Dumbledore; defending himself from flying spells; maintaining his 'cover'; doing the "teaching Harry" thing -- I mean, he has a lot going on here. Yet still, it's James that dominates his thinking. The rage -- both on his face when he AK's Dumbledore and when he's duelling Harry -- I originally thought he was angry at Dumbledore for putting him in this awkward position. Then when I noticed the James comments ("Coward...? Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what would you call him, I wonder?" and "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?") it sort of clicked -- he's raging at/about James! (Madam Pince)
I feel that Snape bringing up James at such a moment was due to a simple association of ideas- he hears Harry shout 'Coward' and naturally thinks 'James!'
At first Snape isn't quite as mad as Harry is. 'Sneering' and 'lazy flick of the arm' do not indicate blind fury. What really makes him fly into a passion is Harry trying to use Sectumsempra against him. He does bring up James once again when he's in a towering rage, but I think that was because he was reminded of James both by Harry's appearance and his behaviour (attacking Snape with spells of his own invention). I really do not think he blames James for the point that his life has reached. It's more about Harry. At that moment he and Harry seem to hate each other more than anyone else in the whole world.
Do we really know that James actually started it all? We mainly have Snape's memories. Is it remotely possible that they are one-sided? Dumbledore, after all, compared James and Snape's animosity to that between Draco and Harry. He didn't seem to think James was as terrible as Snape makes him out to be. (Solitaire)
But the fact is that it is the author who has decided to show us James through Snape's memories, and does not choose to directly show us James in a positive light. And she does not show us anything to make us doubt Snape's version of the events. As for Pensieve memories, they are supposed to be absolutely unbiased, so even if Harry had seen James's memory of The Underpants Attack (thanks to Mrs. Sirius for this alternative name for SWM ) and the tripping Snape on the train incident, he would still have seen the same thing.
so I am sticking with Remus's statement that Snape gave as good as he got. (Solitaire)
Why automatically assume Lupin was lying when he said Snape "gave as good as he got"? (Quinn)
I'm pretty sure Snape gave as good as he got, and I'm glad that he did. When a bunch of kids pick on you and the teachers do not do anything about it, isn't it better to stand up to them and fight back instead of taking things lying down? It's the kids who pick on the lone kid who are to be blamed, not the kid who's fighting back. The phrase 'gave as good as he got' implies that he first 'got' before he 'gave'.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 25, 2008 2:16 pm (#13 of 2988)
Please excuse me for nitpicking Solitaire's comments.
While I agree that the memories suggest James was the instigator of everything ... these are still Snape's memories. A look into James's Pensieve might have shown something different,
Mona amon pretty much says what I was thinking in post 12. Pensieve memories are unbiased.
but we don't have access to James's memories, so I am sticking with Remus's statement that Snape gave as good as he got.
I have no problem believing that Snape gave as good as he good. As Mona amon says it implies he first got before he gave.
Also, I think it is highly unlikely that any kids entering Hogwarts--other than Muggle-borns like Lily--would not have a pretty good idea of what Voldemort has been up to. Many of them have probably lost friends or family by that point. Most of the kids entering with Harry certainly know ... and Voldy's killing sprees started well before James, Snape, and their peers began school.
I disagree slightly with this. In 1981 Dumbledore says 'We've had precious little to celebrate these last 11 years.' I take this to mean that although Dumbledore may have known Tom's true colors, the bulk of the wizarding world had no clue until after 1970 which is when James and Lily first started Hogwarts. Tom may have recruited his Death Eaters twenty years before but I don't think they were too open until after 1970.
And although Voldemort may have had his first public death known in 1970, I don't think it wasn't until a few years later that people became fearful mainly because the Ministry even back then couldn't stop Voldemort or any of his Death Eaters. Also I think the murders and mayhem may have started slowly so that even by year 2, there may not have been any students affected personally by any deaths caused by Voldemort.
In fact, Snape obviously joins "the dark side" while he is still in school and receiving input against it from his one true friend--Lily.
If by joining you mean Snape has the Dark Mark, I think not. I think the students would have feared Dumbledore more and waited till they graduated to become Death Eaters.
Julia H. - Jul 25, 2008 2:49 pm (#14 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 3:54 pm
I don't think Snape had the Dark Mark while in school either. We have no evidence for it. In HBP, most people Harry talks to about Malfoy do not believe Voldemort would recruit a 16-year-old. Now, of course, we know he did recruit Draco but we also know that it was a special case: he wanted to punish Lucius for his mistake (and he could not reach him personally). Adults who have some experience fighting against the dark side seem to think that LV does not normally recruit school-age boys and they probably base this belief on what they know about LV from the earlier war. That makes it improbable that LV would have recruited groups of boys still at Hogwarts in those days.
But whatever "Snape joining the dark side" means, at the age of 11, when he chose Slytherin, he was just an 11-year-old kid, neglected and poor and badly cared for, but not a miniature DE. All he seemed to want was a friend, success at school and the long-awaited entrance to the "real" wizarding world, where he would leave behind all the disadvantages he had to face at home. He came under the influence of budding DE's at Hogwarts (right under DD's nose and Slughorn's nose, I never understood this), who may have accepted him as one of their house, while the "good guys" regularly attacked him, even tortured and humiliated him. It is true, Lily warned him but she was also influenced by the same "good guys", who did not seem to be likely to tolerate Snape if he had wanted to be their friend instead of Mulciber's. If somebody is insecure and has found very little acceptance in life, he will not fight very hard to be accepted by those who hate him when there are others who are more ready to accept him. It is very bad when this other group happens to be the worst possible one but such groups often find new followers among those who find no "place" elsewhere.
Yes, everyone knows that Snape at some point joined the dark side. The point that some of us are trying to make is that the "good guys" did what they could to further push him into the wrong direction.
Solitaire - Jul 25, 2008 3:42 pm (#15 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 4:46 pm
I wasn't going to say anything more on this thread, but I must. I looked at that exchange in the train once more, very closely, and I saw that James and his friends never paid a bit of attention to Lily and Snape at all ... until Snape said the word Slytherin. Whatever this hatred between them turned into, it started out because of James's bias against Slytherin and Snape's insinuation that Gryffindors were all brawn and no brains. In other words, it began as name-calling. No spells or tormenting took place here.
Later, in one of their last exchanges, Lily also refers to Snape and his friends as "You and your precious little Death Eater friends--you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that is what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" She sees that they are already identifying with the DEs, and she is seeing them as such, even when they are still in school. And this isn't a sudden thing, because she says, "I've been making excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you." And given the way she refers to James (as an arrogant toerag), I do not think the Marauders are the friends to whom she is referring.
In that same conversation, following that accusation from Lily ... Snape "opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking." Why did he close it? Was it because she was right, or because, perhaps, he was already a Death Eater? When did Snape take the Mark? Do we know? Surely some took the mark while still in school. I really do not believe we can rule out this possibility.
Snape's real problem with his CHOICE is that he tries to justify his Dark Arts/DE activities by comparing them to what James and the Marauders are doing--mainly breaking school rules. He doesn't get that Lily isn't rejecting him in favor of James (not at this point, anyway) ... she is rejecting him for the CHOICES he is making ... and has already made. Snape blames James for his loss of Lily's friendship, when he lost it himself, without any "help" from James. As to the "good guys" trying to push him into the wrong direction ... I do not buy it. I don't think they want him to become a DE. This is a story about CHOICES, and Snape makes a bad one, even though his best friend encourages him NOT to take that step. I think Snape CHOSE the Dark Arts, because they fascinated him. He CHOSE the way that would allow him to pursue them, but he got more than he bargained for ... and he lived to regret that CHOICE.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 25, 2008 3:59 pm (#16 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 5:09 pm
"You and your precious little Death Eater friends--you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that is what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" (Lily)
The problem with Snape's part in this discussion and one other where he doesn't answer Lily and seems to be stumbling to say anything, is that we can't know whether Snape has no answer, or only bad answers, or whether it's partly that Lily won't give him a chance to answer - because she doesn't, after all, really give him a chance to answer in those particular conversations.
Snape's real problem with his CHOICE is that he tries to justify his Dark Arts/DE activities by comparing them to what James and the Marauders are doing--mainly breaking school rules. (Solitiare)
As I recall, the comparison isn't about the Death Eater activities, but the Dark "joke" Mulciber played on Mary McDonald and the fact that Lily is accusing Snape of having such nasty friends. And he is saying basically, what's the difference between a friend who does this sort of Dark joke and the Marauders? In other words, how is Mulciber - at that point, not later as a DE - worse than Sirius and James? And I don't think the focus is on comparing use of Dark Arts for nasty pranks to some guys out breaking school rulls like curfew or whatever, but comparing the use of Dark Arts for nasty pranks to some guys who are bullying, tormenting, and humiliating others just because they're bored. And Lily has no answer, which is one of the biggest weaknesses, in my opinion, of DH and the series in general, that JKR can't tell us why the cruelty of the "good" guys is different from the cruelty of the bad guys.
Frankly, I think that JKR probably doesn't see the cruelty of the "good guys" as any better than the cruelty of the bad guys, but she doesn't show us that clearly. It's just that I can't believe that she'd write such similar actions between her good guys and bad guys and not see it and not intend that we see it. Such as Harry and friends hexing Draco and friends into unconsciousness and leaving them in the corrider of the Hogwarts Express for hours -- all over some insults; and then again the next year; and then the next year the "bad guy" Draco breaks Harry's nose and leaves him on the train. And did JKR really think Harry's actions were okay because he's a "good guy" while Draco's actions were to show us how bad he was? I just can't believe that.
Ditto for the Marauders. I personally don't think we're meant to believe they were particularly good, just that they chose the side of the Order which happened to be one of their good choices, amongst a bunch of bad choices. Any more than we're to believe that "good guys" can hate werewolves or giants and it doesn't affect their innate "goodness" whereas "bad guys" hate for muggleborns is evidence of their evil. My hope is that JKR is trying to show that the line between "good guys" and "bad guys" isn't drawn by a label like "Dark Arts" but by real actions, attitudes, and ultimately the power of positive love.
I agree that the Marauders weren't trying to push Snape toward the Dark side, but I do think that the entire situation at Hogwarts -- lack of guidance for Slytherins from the teachers and head of house, unrestrained (by the school) bullying of Snape by the Marauders, the general alienation of Slytherin by the rest of the houses, etc., -- very strongly contributed toward Snape's downward spiral toward the Dark and the DEs.
Solitaire - Jul 25, 2008 4:39 pm (#17 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 5:41 pm
the general alienation of Slytherin by the rest of the houses
I believe Slytherins alienate themselves with all of their pureblood drivel. All of the houses have a sort of rivalry among themselves, but when Slytherin is pitted against any of the other three Houses, the other two support Slytherin's opponent. This strong feeling against Slytherin has to be grounded in more than just Salazar Slytherin's exit from Hogwarts. It is deeper than a mere "intramural rivalry," and it didn't start with James and Snape.
When Hagrid says that "there's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't from Slytherin," we chalk it up as a sweeping generalization, especially when we learn about Peter Pettigrew, the Gryffindor who betrayed his friends. Still, all generalizations come from somewhere. How did this one get started? Why do so many parents seem to instill a fear and wariness of Slytherin into their kids?
As to Lily not giving Snape time to respond ... Snape is hardly backward about speaking his mind. I think that Snape would have said what he wanted to say, if he'd had anything to say for himself that was different than the ineffective arguments he'd offered thus far. It's not like Lily was going to give him detention for interrupting her.
I still say ... well, never mind. Nothing that has been said thus far has changed my mind ... or yours. As I've said before, we will have to agree to disagree.
Solitaire
PeskyPixie - Jul 25, 2008 4:53 pm (#18 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 5:54 pm
Actually, I don't blame Snape for sticking up for himself on the first train ride. James has no reason to start picking on another kid just because he wants to be in a House which is the rival House of the one James's family tends to belong to. Snape is not a wimp, so he sticks up for himself. He does not start the confrontation, but once his values are dismissed by James he lets James know that he does not care for James' preferences either. I don't understand how Snape is at fault here. Just because James will one day be Harry Potter's father and Snape does not grow up to be Harry's greatest fan does not mean that we need to accuse Snape for sticking up for himself and not acting the part of victim. He's a little scrapper, and thus, an enmity develops between he and the Marauders.
After this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Snape started a few confrontations with the Marauders, but by that time the enmity is already established.
mona amon - Jul 25, 2008 9:54 pm (#19 of 2988)
Edited Jul 25, 2008 11:10 pm
Exactly! I lay the entire blame for the Snape-Marauders enemity on the Marauders. I'd like to quote from the Bloomsbury Web Chat-
Rachel Nell: Jkr, thank you for such amazing books! I would like to know how come noone seemed to know that lily and snape were friends in school they were obviously meeting for chats, etc didnt james know their past
J.K. Rowling: Thank you for your thank you!
J.K. Rowling: Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known.
J.K. Rowling: James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James' behaviour to Snape.
I couldn't help noticing that she uses the words 'James' behaviour to Snape' and not 'their behaviour towards each other'.
As to Lily not giving Snape time to respond ... Snape is hardly backward about speaking his mind. I think that Snape would have said what he wanted to say, if he'd had anything to say for himself that was different than the ineffective arguments he'd offered thus far. It's not like Lily was going to give him detention for interrupting her. (Solitaire)
LOL, I rarely agree with Soli about anything on the Snape thread, but I can definitely agree with this. Snape couldn't respond because he had absolutely nothing to say in his defence, and not because Lily didn't give him time to say it. If JKR had wanted us to believe that it he was on the verge of giving up the Dark side for Lily, she would have made it a lot more clear.
I also disagree that James had any major role in pushing him towards Voldemort and the DE's. If we are a product of our genes and our environment, then James was of course a part of Snape's environment, but there were so many other factors- his innate fascination with the Dark Arts, his unhappy home life, his misguided desire to be sorted into Slytherin and so on. What I'm trying to say is that I believe Snape would have become a DE even if James had never existed.
Snape blames James for his loss of Lily's friendship, (Solitaire)
But I disagree with this. Snape never puts the blame on James for his loss of Lily's friendship, as far as I can remember.
Solitaire - Jul 25, 2008 10:22 pm (#20 of 2988)
He does blame James, Mona. He sees James as the reason he lost Lily, I believe. He seems to see her as rejecting him because of James ... not because of his interest in the Dark Arts. By the end of his life he may come to see more clearly, but I'm not sure. In his last conversations with Dumbledore (The Prince's Tale) he references James's arrogance, rule breaking, and other faults yet again, pasting them onto Harry. Even if James had been everything Snape said he was, there was still no excuse for Snape to treat Harry as he did. If James was so horrible to him, why wasn't he, an adult, more compassionate toward Harry? I can't give him a pass on his treatment of Harry just because James gave him a rough time. Sorry, Snape ... get over it!
PeskyPixie - Jul 25, 2008 11:10 pm (#21 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 12:32 am
No one gives him a 'pass' on his treatment of Harry, Soli. Snape just happens to be one of the characters about whom JKR has given us a lot of material, plus he has a contradicting nature. It's interesting to try to figure out why he does the things he does. It's also very interesting to see how the same material influences different people.
I personally feel for him until he makes the decision of joining the Death Eaters. Afterwards, no, he is never nice to Harry, but he saves his life many times, so I find it hard to claim that he does more damage to Harry than good.
Also, sometimes it's very easy to tell someone to 'get over it.' Snape lives at Hogwarts and Spinners End, both of which are places where he has easy access to sad memories. Circumstances (many of which are influenced by his choices as a messed up teen) make a fresh start nearly impossible for him.
I don't approve of his treatment of Harry, but I also acknowledge that he is an emotionally damaged person who should not be in a position of authority over him to begin with ... oh, let's face it, Snape should not be a teacher to absolute beginners, period. He's the guy you should do your grad studies with ... and even that if you are a gifted student who is not an insufferable know-it-all.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 26, 2008 1:02 am (#22 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 2:03 am
James's best friend had got Snape into danger - Julia
In my view, Snape, and Snape alone, got Snape into danger.
it is precisely this one-sided "bragging" afterwards... - Julia
Which is only an assumption. There is nothing in the text to indicate that this is the way in which the story was related to Lily. For all we know, James never said a word. Recall Dumbledore's remark to Harry in PS/SS: "What happened between you and Professor Quirrell is a complete secret. So, naturally the whole school knows."
It's not a question of "automatically" assuming anything, instead it is a process of analyzing what story is more likely to be right - Wynnleaf
Well, in my own analysis of the story, I don't recall Remus lying to Harry. True, he could have just explained about the Map, but the way he words his explanation to Harry ("They would have wanted to lure you...") tells me that, for Remus, the Marauders days are long gone. He is a completely different person, who knows how wrong some of the things they did were. He knows he was wrong to lie to Dumbledore in those days, and to keep lying to him now. It is a coping skill Remus has extreme difficulty overcoming. But I don't remember him every lying to Harry about anything.
the comparison isn't about the Death Eater activities, but the Dark "joke" Mulciber played on Mary McDonald and the fact that Lily is accusing Snape of having such nasty friends. - Wynnleaf
The people he hangs around with are simply an indication of the path he is on, which is, I believe, the point Lily was tying to make.
I believe Snape would have become a DE even if James had never existed. - Mona Amon
Agreed. He seems to have had his whole career as a wizard pretty well mapped out when he was discussing it with Lily. I don't necessarily mean that "join Death Eaters" was on his list. But his interest in the Dark Arts would have led him there regardless of James or anyone else.
James has no reason to start picking on another kid just because he wants to be in a House which is the rival House of the one James's family tends to belong to. - Pesky Pixie
I found this to be a very realistic interaction between boys, particularly of that age. Boys bond through aggression: rough-housing and insults. Through this, there is an unconscious sort of ritual over establishing a hierarchy of dominance.
James is clearly taking the Alpha position. He is confident in who he is. He doesn't like Slytherin (for whatever reason. I think it likely that he would have heard from his parents about the pure-blood philosophy and/or Dark Arts surrounding it, for example) so when he hears Snape mention this, he probably feels dubious about Snape as well. What kind of a person would want to be in Slytherin after all?
He tests Sirius on the matter ("I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"). Fortunately, Sirius seems to willingly take the Beta position. "And I thought you seemed all right!" Sirius could have taken offense at this remark, but because he laughs, he shows he is equally interested in bonding with James ("Maybe I'll break [family] tradition"), who only wants to be in the same House as his dad.
But Snape immediately takes offense - understandable. But in doing so, he gives James the power. Snape tries to put himself on a higher plain with the "tsk-ing" of James's desire to follow in his father's footsteps ("Got a problem with that?"). Snape could have simply said no, he didn't have a problem with James wanting to be in Gryffindor and James would probably not have paid him any more attention. There's nothing more to be said to that answer, really. But instead Snape adds, (quite unnecessarily, in my opinion) "If you'd rather be brawny than brainy". Like Sirius, he sets the tone for his relationship with James by the way he responds to James's line of inquiry.
Man, I hope at least some of this makes sense.
Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2008 2:31 am (#23 of 2988)
Solitaire and QC, well said.
Soul Search - Jul 26, 2008 4:39 am (#24 of 2988)
We have speculated that James pushed Snape further into the Death Eater camp, but could the reverse be true? No doubt, Lily was the reason James cleaned up his act a bit, but was it Snape that pushed James all the way to the Order of the Pheonix?
In GoF, Sirius doesn't seem to know Snape was a Death Eater, or that Snape had a dark mark. This seems to contradict Lily's comments to Snape in the Deathly Hallows "The Prince's Tale" scene in Gryffindor tower.
wynnleaf - Jul 26, 2008 5:42 am (#25 of 2988)
Without James, would Snape have joined the DEs? Good question.
JKR said that one reason Snape joined up was because of thinking that Lily would be impressed by his being this powerful, dark wizard. Why would Snape think that? At this point, I do think that James unknowingly plays a part. Snape seems to recognize in The Prince's Tale scenes that Lily is attracted to James. He makes comments sometimes showing that he's concerned that she's interested in James.
the comparison isn't about the Death Eater activities, but the Dark "joke" Mulciber played on Mary McDonald and the fact that Lily is accusing Snape of having such nasty friends. - Wynnleaf
The people he hangs around with are simply an indication of the path he is on, which is, I believe, the point Lily was tying to make. (Quinn)
Yes, but it's not the point Snape was making. Snape was basically saying that he doesn't see the difference in the way the Marauders act and the way the people act who Snape hangs out with. If Snape thinks that Lily is attracted to James (which she is), and that the friends Snape is cultivating are similar to the Marauders, then that helps us understand why Snape thought becoming a powerful, Dark wizard would appeal to Lily. Sure, Lily says she despises this, but she also says she dislikes the way the Marauders act. Yet she was still attracted to James and ended up dating James anyway, even though the only real change James seems to have made is in figuring out how to conceal his continuing bad behavior (bullying Snape, reckless behavior, encouraging a werewolf to run free over the countryside with numerous "near misses"). We don't actually get shown any indication that James changed, and Lily still fell for him.
So even though James had no intention of pushing Snape toward the DEs, nor do I think his actions directly pushed Snape that way, I do think that the fact that James existed as a bullying jerk, happy to torment and humiliate others, and that Lily was attracted to him, was a strong added inducement for Snape to be interested in becoming a powerful dark wizard. Because remember that young Snape didn't see a real difference between being a powerful dark wizard and being a powerful cruel bullying wizard.
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wynnleaf - Jul 26, 2008 6:22 am (#26 of 2988)
Well, in my own analysis of the story, I don't recall Remus lying to Harry. True, he could have just explained about the Map, but the way he words his explanation to Harry ("They would have wanted to lure you...") tells me that, for Remus, the Marauders days are long gone. He is a completely different person, who knows how wrong some of the things they did were. He knows he was wrong to lie to Dumbledore in those days, and to keep lying to him now. It is a coping skill Remus has extreme difficulty overcoming. But I don't remember him every lying to Harry about anything. (Quinn)
As I said earlier, Remus has a history through the series of fudging on the truth in order to protect himself, keep the goodwill of others, etc. He does fudge the truth with Harry on more than one occasion. 1. He won't tell him that he is one of the creators of the Map. 2. He won't tell him, in direct answer to a direct question about whether Remus knew Harry's dad, that he was a close friend, implying instead that he was only an acquaintance. 3. He tells Harry that the enmity between James and Snape was because Snape was jealous over James' Quidditch skills. While Lupin may think that had something to do with it, no one could be so clueless as to really believe that was the main reason Snape disliked James. 4. In DH, Lupin tries at first to conceal the situation between himself and his family. Yes, I can understand why he did all of these things, but they do show him fudging the truth to Harry on numerous occasions.
Julia H. - Jul 26, 2008 7:46 am (#27 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 8:46 am
I saw that James and his friends never paid a bit of attention to Lily and Snape at all ... until Snape said the word Slytherin. (Solitaire)
That is quite clear but I still don’t know why James has to start the exchange just because he has heard the word Slytherin. Or if he knows that Slytherin is such a bad place that he just has to say something when hearing that someone wants to go there, why does he not say something more benevolent, trying to call the other boy’s attention to the bad things he has heard about that house? Apparently, he is just entering the old, pre-LV rivalry between the houses. Then, if this is OK, then why is the noise (I mean noise!) Snape makes or his "brawny and brainy" comment any worse? (Is brawny a negative word in English?) Yes, it is mutual name-calling until James tries to trip Snape. That is not name-calling any more and I see no justification for it.
Snape's real problem with his CHOICE is that he tries to justify his Dark Arts/DE activities by comparing them to what James and the Marauders are doing--mainly breaking school rules.
I guess the Slytherins were also breaking the school-rules but I definitely think that in the case of both the Marauders and Mulciber it was very serious rule-breaking and I cannot see the difference between the actions of the two sides. BTW, we see the Marauders hang a student upside down in the air, make him gag and choke, try to strip him in public, make a public show of his humiliation – and I DON’T CARE whether the means they use are dark or light, it does not make any difference to the victim. On the other hand we know Mulciber tried to do some dark magic trick to a fellow student as a “laugh”. Snape’s crime seems to be only knowing about it and not rejecting it. It is not the same as personally doing it. The Marauders, however, do the trick themselves, at least James and Sirius do and Lupin and Pettigrew know and do not reject it. As it happens we never ever see Snape publicly humiliating, torturing or stripping anyone (not even Lily accuses him of that) – and yet the crime of this Slytherin student seems worse to many readers than whatever the Marauders do.
Recently the following quote has caught my attention. HRH are talking about Levicorpus and Harry remembers seeing his father use it.
’Maybe your dad did use it, Harry,’ said Hermione, ‘but he’s not the only one. We’ve seen a whole bunch of people use it, in case you’ve forgotten. Dangling people in the air. Making them float along, asleep, helpless.’
She is talking about the DE’s after the Quidditch World Cup. So where is the great difference between the bullying actions of the Marauders’ and DE actions?
As to the "good guys" trying to push him into the wrong direction ... I do not buy it. I don't think they want him to become a DE.
I did not mean to say they wanted him to become a DE but perhaps I was not clear enough. I do think, however, that their bullying pushed Snape towards his fellow Slytherins. Honestly, what is an “oddball” likely to do if he has to be afraid of being attacked by the school bullies (“four on one”) whenever he leaves Slytherin House and the teachers are either unable or unwilling to do anything about the bullying? Then most of the school will laugh at his torment. He will probably stick with those guys who do not attack him. If the bullies tormenting him are popular and seem to be liked and approved of by teachers and students alike, why should he think that the bullies who attack others, not him should be judged any worse? (And no, Lily does not explain it to him or to anyone.)
As I have already said, the Marauders pushed Snape towards the bad side by helping to isolate him (as Harry was isolated in primary school because of Dudley and his gang) outside Slytherin. Though I don’t know whether Snape blames James for the break-up between Lily and himself or not, James certainly “pushed a button” in Lily’s presence, which directly led to their breaking-up. I emphasized that I did not put all the blame on James but James certainly played a part.
As for whether Snape would have become a DE if James had not been at Hogwarts at all – we do not know. But a lot of things may have been different for him in those seven years.
I can't give him a pass on his treatment of Harry just because James gave him a rough time.
Just because we are discussing James’s faults, we are not giving Snape a „pass“ on his treatment of Harry. But we cannot judge the child Snape because of the actions of the adult Snape either.
PeskyPixie - Jul 26, 2008 7:46 am (#28 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 9:18 am
"James has no reason to start picking on another kid just because he wants to be in a House which is the rival House of the one James's family tends to belong to." -Pesky
"I found this to be a very realistic interaction between boys, particularly of that age. Boys bond through aggression: rough-housing and insults. Through this, there is an unconscious sort of ritual over establishing a hierarchy of dominance." -Quinn
I wasn't commenting on whether it's realistic or not. Girls of that age can be far nastier than boys, but that wouldn't cause me to excuse the instigator on the grounds that, 'hey, it's realistic'. By the way, not all kids (both male and female) automatically resort to aggression and insults in order to bond.
"James is clearly taking the Alpha position. He is confident in who he is. He doesn't like Slytherin (for whatever reason ... ) ... What kind of a person would want to be in Slytherin after all?" -Quinn
Obviously, that's how young James works. However, being confident in yourself doesn't give you the right to impose your beliefs on others. James is very realistically written; he's a snotty brat of a kid who needs to be taken down a few pegs. Young Harry is nothing like him (that's not say James does not mature into a wonderful young man by the time he is eighteen, but he is a highly irritating kid during this incident). If anything Lily's defense of Severus reminds me of Harry sticking up for poor, shabby Ron against rich, spoiled Malfoy and his followers.
"He tests Sirius on the matter ... Fortunately, Sirius seems to willingly take the Beta position. "And I thought you seemed all right!" Sirius could have taken offense at this remark, but because he laughs, he shows he is equally interested in bonding with James ("Maybe I'll break [family] tradition"), who only wants to be in the same House as his dad." -Quinn
That's how I see this as well, except I don't understand why anyone has to feel 'fortunate' in taking the Beta position? Why should Sirius be expected to submit himself to James's beliefs in order to be his friend? Granted, Sirius wants to distance himself from his nutty family, but I can not deny that I am uneasy about this assumption that this potential Slytherin is being saved by submitting to this dominant future Gryffindor. I have a problem with the latent idea that others should simply want to be blessed with James's friendship simply on the grounds that he is a dominant kid who wants to be in Gryffindor.
"But Snape immediately takes offense - understandable. But in doing so, he gives James the power. Snape tries to put himself on a higher plain with the "tsk-ing" of James's desire to follow in his father's footsteps ("Got a problem with that?"). Snape could have simply said no, he didn't have a problem with James wanting to be in Gryffindor and James would probably not have paid him any more attention. There's nothing more to be said to that answer, really. But instead Snape adds, (quite unnecessarily, in my opinion) "If you'd rather be brawny than brainy". Like Sirius, he sets the tone for his relationship with James by the way he responds to James's line of inquiry." -Quinn
Ah, I see, James is aggressively bonding with Snape by insulting Slytherin but by equalling insulting Gryffindor Severus is being 'unnecessarily' rude and therefore he actually provokes James into the creation of the hostile relationship which develops between them.
Forgive me, but I understand the psychology of the entire situation. As Quinn mentions, it is highly realistic. However, my point isn't about whether it's realistic or not as even in a real life situation James is the instigator and hardly admirable in nature. He's a jerk who is used to exerting his dominance over others and doesn't take well when that right to dominance is questioned (especially by a runt like Snape, who should obviously be the omega member of his pack).
If James were a Slytherin picking on Severus's desire to be in Gryffindor I think more of us would applaud Sev for sticking up for himself and not submitting to the rich, spoiled Slytherin bully who is used to having everything his own way. We seem to make excuses to pardon the bad manners of Gryffindors because they are the 'heroes' of the story and Gryffindor House is the one which most readers prefer to identify with. Thus, anything negative regarding this House and its members is taken personally.
Julia H. - Jul 26, 2008 8:56 am (#29 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 11:26 am
Well said, Pesky, I absolutely agree.
James's best friend had got Snape into danger - Julia
In my view, Snape, and Snape alone, got Snape into danger. (Quinn)
Since we have read the same books, we probably have very different ideas of the question of responsibility. IMO, if you know a place of mortal danger, which most other people do not know, and – knowing the extent of this danger – you tell another person to go there and tell him how to get there too, without actually mentioning what is there, it qualifies as getting that person into danger. Granted, Snape did not need to go there just because Sirius had told him but Snape’s mistake does not excuse Sirius’s behaviour. BTW, we do not know how Sirius told him to go there, but it may not have been in the simplest words. Sirius does have a certain inherited (?) Slytherinness in him and if Snape knew the Marauders had been down there (without knowing that they had been there in the shapes of animals), he may have supposed he could do what they could or may have wanted to show that he dared as much as they did. However incautious Snape may have been, Sirius was also to blame.
I am sure if Snape had died or become a werewolf and there had been an investigation and the full story had come to light, not only Lupin the innocent werewolf but Sirius and maybe even James and Pettigrew would have been expelled from Hogwarts because:
1. They were not allowed to go down the tunnel day or night but least of all when a werewolf was there, yet that is what they did and that is why they knew the secret of the tunnel. 2. They were unregistered animagi, that is they broke wizarding law (not just a school-rule). 3. Sirius spread the dangerous knowledge about how to get into the tunnel to yet another person, even encouraging him to try and go there.
So whatever we, readers, think of Sirius’s responsibility, James knew that all four of the Marauders could be in great trouble, if Sirius’s little joke succeeded. And if Snape was later convinced that James had saved him exclusively for the purpose of saving his friends, well, he was there when it happened. Even if he was mistaken in this regard, I can imagine that James’s overall behaviour may have made him think that. Perhaps James seemed to be the same unrepentant, arrogant bully while saving Snape, as he always was towards him, while Sirius, as we know, found the whole thing “amusing”.
it is precisely this one-sided "bragging" afterwards... - Julia
Which is only an assumption.
OK, you are right there. But the story that Lily heard must have been started either by James or Sirius and if Sirius started it, James does not seem to have stopped him. I don’t think anyone else would have started telling the story, Snape obviously did not and Lupin was not likely either, Dumbledore or any other teacher involved even less (because of Lupin). So, OK, Lily may have heard it from someone other than James but it was still the Marauders’ version, not Snape’s, and Lily believed it, while she did not believe what Snape was trying to tell her about the same event, although Snape had been there, while her “Gryffindor” informant may or may not have been. In this sense, the Marauders did shape Lily’s opinion of Snape. BTW, the reason why I assumed that James had been bragging (if not directly to Lily, then to someone else) is that in SWM, we see him trying to show off in front of girls (especially Lily), doing anything to call attention to himself from messing up his hair to attacking and humiliating someone with no reason at all. He does seem to be the kind of guy who would brag about an incident like this, trying to make his rival look stupid, ungrateful, whatever and trying to make himself look brave and cool. It is only an assumption but I think it is in character at least.
We talk about choices a lot, especially that of Snape’s. But I think James also made a choice when he decided to hex people, curse people because he did not like them. He made a choice when he decided to torture and humiliate his disarmed rival and just because this choice affected the other person more than himself, it was still a CHOICE and James had responsibility for the long-term effects of this choice. IMO it was a bad choice and we never see James regret it or feel any kind of remorse. I think SWM is a turning-point twice in the story. When it happened, it became a turning-point in Snape’s life because that was the ultimate event leading to his break-up with Lily, after which he had no other friends but the Slytherin ones (and, as I said, I believe the bullies had had a hand in making it next to impossible for him to have other friends outside his house). Then about 20 years later, SWM comes back when Harry sees it in the Pensieve. It becomes a turning-point again: the Occlumency lessons stop, the relationship between Harry and Snape becomes worse than it had ever been and not only does Harry fail to learn to close down his mind but he also “forgets” to go to Snape – the only person who could (and would) help him – when he thinks that Sirius had been caught by LV. The result? Sirius, James’s “partner in crime” in SWM, dies and James’s son has to suffer a terrible loss. SWM plays the part of destiny and it was started by James just to entertain Sirius.
Anna L. Black - Jul 26, 2008 10:02 am (#30 of 2988)
When reading the last posts, I started thinking about Mulciber's "joke" on Mary McDonald. The only thing we ever learn about Mulciber is what Karkaroff says about him in his trial - "he specialized in the Imperius Curse, forced countless people to do horrific things!". Could that be what he did to Mary? If that is what JKR had in mind, then she might have seen as really worse than what the marauders did.
Then again, as she herslef had Hermione compare the Marauders' actions (Levicorpus) to what the DEs did, maybe she did think that one's not better than the other in this case. Hard to tell, as she's not very definitive on that issue (and she has Harry use Imperius as well...)
Julia H. - Jul 26, 2008 10:45 am (#31 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 11:59 am
See, whatever Mulciber did, I am sure it was something horrible and only JKR knows why she did not specify what it was. However, what the Marauders did was horrible as well, quite independent of Mulciber. And then again, I don't know why we should equate Mulciber with Snape, when we don't even know if Snape was there at all when the mentioned incident happened.
I think we have James and Sirius on one side and they were bullies and so was Mulciber but on the other side. Lily, who saw herself threatened by the likes of Mulciber, preferred the Marauders to Mulciber. Snape, who was threatened and regularly attacked by the Marauders, preferred the likes of Mulciber to the Marauders. As simple as that. Choices are important but what they are influenced by is often nothing else but the mundane, day-to-day bleak reality surrounding the persons who choose and if these people have little experience (they are young!), perhaps even more so.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 26, 2008 10:59 am (#32 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 12:06 pm
If Snape thinks that Lily is attracted to James (which she is), and that the friends Snape is cultivating are similar to the Marauders, then that helps us understand why Snape thought becoming a powerful, Dark wizard would appeal to Lily. - Wynnleaf
Good point. However, Lily seems well enough aware of the kind of person James is and says so. That doesn't mean she can't find him attractive physically or admire his bravado. Certainly his personal energy would be far more attractive than dark and dour ol' Sev.
This probably really belongs on the Lupin Thread, but...
1. [Remus] won't tell [Harry] that he is one of the creators of the Map. - In fairness, he does later reveal his part in creating it. But initially, he is acting in a position of authority over Harry. To explain about the Map at that point would have meant having to reveal personal information about not only himself but Snape as well. It would have been pretty unprofessional - or at least, inappropriate - for him to go into the age old rivalry between Snape and himself (as one of the Marauders). By not answering Harry directly, Remus was able to make his point yet keep the past in the past - at least for the time being.
2. He won't tell him, in direct answer to a direct question about whether Remus knew Harry's dad, that he was a close friend, implying instead that he was only an acquaintance.
Harry looked up. "Why -- you didn't know my dad, did you?" "I -- I did, as a matter of fact," said Lupin. "We were friends at Hogwarts." (PA ch. 12) Doesn't sound to me like he regards their relationship as "only an acquaintance".
3. He tells Harry that the enmity between James and Snape was because Snape was jealous over James' Quidditch skills. While Lupin may think that had something to do with it, no one could be so clueless as to really believe that was the main reason Snape disliked James.
Lupin wasn't there when James and Snape met. The two disliked each other instantly and everything that transpires between them is rooted here. Lupin likely only knows that James hates Snape and vice versa. He may never have fully understood why.
But I take it you are referring to the bullying, in which case, again I suggest that Lupin is actually atempting to protect Snape's privacy.
4. In DH, Lupin tries at first to conceal the situation between himself and his family. - I disgree. Lupin isn't trying to conceal anything. He simply views his situation from the very skewed vantage point of having been regarded all his life as unworthy of even an equal place in society, let alone anything even resembling happiness. In Remus's mind, Tonks and the baby would be better off without him there.
By the way, not all kids (both male and female) automatically resort to aggression and insults in order to bond. - Pesky
Of course not. I was making a generalization, and there will always be exceptions to any generalization.
being confident in yourself doesn't give you the right to impose your beliefs on others - Pesky
I didn't see James as "imposing his beliefs". He's trying to find out what kind of people he is sharing the compartment with, whether or not they are "friend" material.
I don't understand why anyone has to feel 'fortunate' in taking the Beta position - I just meant that, in terms of testing the friendship waters, Sirius is not interested in a fight for dominance. He tacitly accepts the terms of the friendship offered. He agrees with James on this one point and sees a potential friend. But that doesn't mean Sirius is "submitting". He is simply not challenging the Alpha position, which he could certainly do if he wanted.
Ah, I see, James is aggressively bonding with Snape by insulting Slytherin but by equalling insulting Gryffindor Severus is being 'unnecessarily' rude and therefore he actually provokes James into the creation of the hostile relationship which develops between them.
Not exactly. James is definitely inciting something here and deliberately so. I just meant that the reaction he gets from each other person will tell him whether or not there is potential for a relationship.
But really, one could argue that James is not "insulting" Slytherin at all; that he is simply stating that he would be so unhappy about being sorted into any House other than the one he really wants, that he would rather leave school. But given the climate of the times (this would have been the early 1970's and Voldemort pretty well-established), I'm sure the Slytherin connection to Voldemort must have been, if not widely known, certainly rumored about.
The reason I found Snape's barb "unnecessary" is because he's already made his opinion clear and so has James. The two have already established that neither is a likely candidate for friendship with the other. But also because Snape's comment seems to be more directed at James's desire to be like his dad; and isn't there some sort of "insult etiquette" about never insulting the other person's family?
By the way, I'm not assigning blame here. It takes two to tango and two wrongs don't make a right and all that.
the story that Lily heard [about "the prank"] must have been started either by James or Sirius and if Sirius started it, James does not seem to have stopped him. - Julia
Yes, I see what you mean about Sirius's culpability in the prank on Snape. But I still don't really agree that goading someone into doing something - especially someone who is extremely unlikely, by the looks of things, to listen - makes the "goad-er" accountable. I mean, it's not like Sirius was Snape's mentor or older brother or parent or anyone else whose instructions Snape would follow. He was Snape's enemy.
And, again, Harry and Quirrell were down in the bottom chamber alone. Harry was even shocked to discover Quirrell there. Afterwards, Harry was unconscious for several days, apparently, so he certainly didn't say anything. And yet "the whole school knows". But even if one of them did say something, why assume "the Marauders version" isn't the truth? James, after all, "was there" too.
Yes, SWM is definitely a major pivot point in the whole story. Excellent points on its ongoing repercussions, Julia. And I also agree with the idea of Lily choosing the lesser of two evils, in a sense, regarding the inherent "evils" of the Marauders vs. Mulciber.
This may be a personal record for my longest post on any forum ever.
Julia H. - Jul 26, 2008 11:22 am (#33 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 1:16 pm
But I still don't really agree that goading someone into doing something - especially someone who is extremely unlikely, by the looks of things, to listen - makes the "goad-er" accountable. (Quinn)
OK, so we just disagree here. But again, as I said, James probably was more interested in the practical "legal" consequences of the joke than in the more theoretical interpretations of accountability.
Regarding the latter, what do you say if I find Sirius culpable for apparently wanting Snape to go down that dangerous tunnel and enjoying seeing that another human being - as you say - was getting himself into danger? I also find him culpable for not trying to stop him when he saw that Snape was indeed going there. I mean he would have had to try to stop anybody from going into the tunnel (even if he had not played a part in sending them there) - it would have been the right thing to do.
Afterwards, Harry was unconscious for several days, apparently, so he certainly didn't say anything. And yet "the whole school knows".
Well, Ron and Hermione were quite close, so they could have told a couple of things and Quirrell's death/"disappearance" was certainly noticed - and then DD may have given some explanations to certain people who asked questions. The Stone was protected by a group after all (which included Hagrid!). However, in the case of the Prank, there was a reason to keep everything in secret because of Lupin - and Lily was more likely to hear the story in the Gryffindor Tower than in the staff room.
EDIT: But even if one of them did say something, why assume "the Marauders version" isn't the truth?
Did I see that it was not the truth? It was not the same story as Snape's however. I brought up the whole point as an instance of James influencing Lily's opinion of Snape and what we can see from Lily's words is that she thought Snape was "ungrateful" and James heroic and was not ready to believe that Snape may have had a point as well. She does not seem to know about Sirius finding her friend's danger "amusing" either, which was certainly part of the truth, since not only Snape but Lupin used this word later as well. I think I used the word "one-sided", not "untrue". It did seem to be a version favouring the Marauders more than Snape found it justified.
Wynnleaf's post after this one makes me think perhaps if the light side had been on the whole better and less flawed, Voldemort and the dark side could not have been in power for such a long time and perhaps there would not have been a need for a single "Chosen One" to finish him. If this is true in the case of the adult society, perhaps something similar may be true in the school as well: if the "good guys" had been really good and less flawed, perhaps fewer people had been attracted to the dark side.
wynnleaf - Jul 26, 2008 11:41 am (#34 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 12:44 pm
I know that in retrospect it's easy to say that the Marauders, however bullying they were in school, would become the kind of people who would join the Order eventually, whereas Mulciber and Snape's other friends, however we might equate their cruelty as students to the Marauders, were on their way to joining a pureblood elitist group that would murder and torture people who didn't agree with them.
But I don't think JKR actually makes the adult versions of the political camps these people joined necessarily so distinctly good and bad. Sure, she clearly shows that the Death Eaters favored pureblood elitist ideas and that as a group they were willing to kill and torture people they hated in order to get their way.
The flip side is that she shows us that the opposing Ministry side of things, the established government during that period, was a regime that imprisoned people without trial, subjecting them to the torture of dementors which eventually killed many, according to Sirius. How many, like Sirius, were innocent? The "good" side also had its biases against werewolves and giants, and was willing to curtail their ability to hold jobs and feed themselves. And the "good" side, during the Marauder period, was willing to authorize the use of unforgiveables in order to stop the bad Death Eaters.
I guess what I'm getting at is that the "good" side didn't threaten muggleborns, but they did have their own wrongful biases and hateful practices. The fact that Snape's friends do cruel things and later join the Death Eaters is not necessarily in some kind of direct contrast to the Marauders, who also act cruelly to others and, while they don't ally themselves to the Evil of Voldemort, they do ally themselves, though somewhat indirectly, to a regime that imprisoned, tortured and killed even the innocent.
I agree that joining Voldemort is definitely the worse choice, but allying oneself to the supposed "good" side in this case is not some indicator of righteousness.
Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2008 1:50 pm (#35 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 2:50 pm
A while back Quinn said, "He tests Sirius on the matter ... Fortunately, Sirius seems to willingly take the Beta position."
I'm not sure that he took the beta posistion. I think that he is a Slytherin at heart and is quite content to lead while appearing to be the beta. At least that is my reading of the worst memory scene.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 26, 2008 2:21 pm (#36 of 2988)
I also find him culpable for not trying to stop him when he saw that Snape was indeed going there. - Julia
Hm. Well yes, if that is where you hold Sirius accountable, then yes, I would have to agree with you. Not acting when one should and has the power to do so is just as much a violation of humanity's laws as actively causing destruction, in my opinion.
Good points, Wynnleaf. I am pleased that JKR tells us (through Sirius, of all people, who is essentially defending Snape, his arch-nemesis, when he says), "Well, the world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters." On this point, at least, she is clear. Even Dumbledore is ultimately called into the light of "just how 'good' is "Good" anyway?"
Steve, good point as well. Sirius does seem to be quite manipulative in a "man behind the curtain" sort of way.
Madam Pince - Jul 27, 2008 10:08 pm (#37 of 2988)
Wynnleaf, if I ever get into trouble, I want you as my lawyer. (And I don't even know if you're a lawyer or not...)
James, as a "big man on campus," set in motion the way everyone else viewed Snape. --me
That is granting James rather a lot of power, assuming he dictates the way every other kid in school views another person. He didn't dictate how Lily viewed Snape, did he? Snape did that himself. Are we sure that everyone else at Hogwarts viewed Snape as James did ... or just the Marauders, meaning James and 3 other kids? --Soli
Well, that was kind of what I was saying... yes, I do think James dictated how Lily viewed Snape. Not necessarily by telling her things from his slant, nor by "pushing" Snape into being a DE (I don't think James wanted Snape to be a DE -- I don't think he thought of him enough to care what he was. James seems to have mostly thought about James.) In my original post I was intending to convey that James dictated how everyone ended up viewing Snape because James' tormenting is what started Snape's behavior back at him, which started a sort of downward spiral that Snape could not escape from. (And I'm not just talking here about how Hogwartsians viewed Student-Snape; I'm talking about his whole life.) James caused Snape to act the way Snape did (hence eventually dictating Lily's judgement) because of the constant tormenting that James gave him. Yes, perhaps Snape had a choice of how to react, (as you say) but in my view, he really didn't have much of one. Once a popular, dominant, domineering bully has you in his sights, you pretty much almost have to react. My original point was that if James had just left Snape alone, even, (let alone been commonly civil to him) when they were children, then Snape's life could've been so very very different. But Snape had to be constantly on the defensive (which is not very attractive,) which thus leads to constant bitterness, (again not very attractive), and so on down. It all started with James; whether or not Snape could've possibly changed it is irrelevant to how Snape (or I) views the original responsibility of the situation.
Like Pesky and Mona, I also think the "gave as good as he got" is more of a positive than a negative. If he was being bullied, I would hope he gave as good as he got! As others said, the "giving" wouldn't be necessary without the "gotting," so again, Snape didn't start it. He should not be faulted for standing up for himself. Was there a better way to do so? Maybe. But he clearly hadn't had much childhood training in social graces, so we can't expect much.
(Just for the record, I absolutely do give a "pass" to Snape for his treatment of Harry. I firmly stand by my assessment of Snape as a "drill instructor" in the military -- he is training Harry to keep himself alive... and Snape succeeds. Harry ends up alive --period, end of story. If Snape had been nicey-nice, and Harry ended up dead, that to me wouldn't have been the preferred resolution of the story. Thus, for keeping Harry alive in the end, yes, Snape wins a pass from me. The one "inexcusable" comment that I don't give Snape a pass for is not directed at Harry -- it's his "I see no difference" comment to Hermione about her teeth. There was no reason for that insult. It was mean. I chalk it up to having itchy underwear or a migraine or something. )
Solitaire - Jul 27, 2008 10:48 pm (#38 of 2988)
I firmly stand by my assessment of Snape as a "drill instructor" in the military -- he is training Harry to keep himself alive... and Snape succeeds.
On more than one occasion, Snape tries to get Harry expelled from Hogwarts. Was he trying to save him then? I don't think so. I mean, what would have become of Harry if he had been expelled? Snape took a vow to help before Lily died, and afterwards, when things went badly, he was stuck. He had given his word to Dumbledore. So, yeah, he taught Harry. There were other ways he could have dealt with Harry, though. He CHOSE to treat Harry unkindly because he could. If he could have done more to hurt him emotionally, I think he would have done. It was his way (in his mind, of course) of getting back at James.
In truth, I do not think Snape ever expected Harry to succeed with Dumbledore's "task," despite Dumbledore's assurance that "If I know him, he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort." Snape always undervalued Harry's intelligence, his magical ability, and his determination. I suspect he was stunned when Harry showed up at his side at the moment of his death.
Solitaire
PeskyPixie - Jul 28, 2008 5:32 am (#39 of 2988)
Snape does not try to get Harry expelled after Voldy makes his return.
mona amon - Jul 28, 2008 6:29 am (#40 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 7:31 am
I chalk it up to having itchy underwear or a migraine or something. (Madam Pince)
.**Giggle** Or maybe he was just having a bad hair day!
On more than one occasion, Snape tries to get Harry expelled from Hogwarts. (Soli)
I can't really believe he's serious about it. I mean, he'd really love to do so, but surely he knows he cannot do his irksome job of protecting him if he's kicked out of Hogwarts. In CoS he tells him that he cannot expel him, but he'll go and fetch the people who can, and then returns with Dumbledore and Minerva. Surely he knows that Dumbledore is not going to expel him. I think he was just trying to scare them, but was disappointed that the punishment they got was nothing worse than a letter to their families.
I do not exactly give Snape a pass for his treatment of Harry. I feel it's completely unjustifiable. But it's such a small part of the larger picture, and Harry does not seem to have suffered any damage. I feel Snape's attitude towards Harry did more emotional harm to himself than to Harry.
Soul Search - Jul 28, 2008 6:58 am (#41 of 2988)
Snape was always sneaking around trying to get James and his friends expelled. This activity was what prompted Sirius to direct Snape to the Whomping Willow tunnel setting up the "prank."
So, James' son comes to Hogwarts, he looks like James did when he was at Hogwarts, and Snape just picks up where he left off. We even get examples of him "sneaking" around, trying to get Harry and his friends expelled. In spite of promising Dumbledore he would help protect Harry, he tries to get him removed from Hogwarts where neither he nor Dumbledore would be able to protect him. Really irresponsible, childish behavior for an adult and a teacher.
Along came Voldemort at the end of GoF and Snape needed to change his attitude. But, after GoF, Snape is influenced by both Dumbledore and Voldemort. It may be difficult to separate a change in Snape's attitude toward Harry from changes directed by these additional complications.
We see in "The Prince's Tale" that Dumbledore told Snape Harry had to die. Can we pinpoint when this occurred? That is, without consulting "The Prince's Tale," can we tell when Dumbledore told Snape from a change in Snape's attitude toward Harry? Given JKR's detailed planning, I would expect some sort of flag, but can't cite one.
The Occulmency lessons may be the turning point, but it is hard to tell.
Madam Pince - Jul 28, 2008 12:36 pm (#42 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 1:39 pm
On more than one occasion, Snape tries to get Harry expelled from Hogwarts. Was he trying to save him then? I don't think so. --Soli
It's interesting you should say this -- actually, there was some passage that I listened to yesterday that made me think that's exactly what Snape was doing. Unfortunately, now I can't remember what that passage was. I'll try and look it up.
But truly I think more along the lines of Mona Amon -- Snape does not seriously want Harry expelled, certainly not after Voldemort's return, as Pesky said. Give me a break, Snape has to know that Dumbledore is not going to expel Harry, and the headmaster is the only one with the power to do so, I believe. I agree with Mona -- he's just trying to scare him into recognizing that the situation is serious.
I know we'll never agree on this, but for me, bottom line is... Harry is alive, and it's due in no small part to the training he got at the hands of Severus Snape. Plus Snape helped to stiffen Harry's spine.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 28, 2008 1:28 pm (#43 of 2988)
I know Snape threatens to expel Harry a number of times but I don't see that as proof enough that Snape wanted Harry out of the school. Snape says lots of things that he doesn't follow through on (such as giving Sirius Black to the dementers.)
Solitaire - Jul 28, 2008 1:43 pm (#44 of 2988)
His opportunity to "follow through" is interrupted. He hates Sirius enough that he might well have done it!
PeskyPixie - Jul 28, 2008 2:12 pm (#45 of 2988)
I think I agree with Soli on sending Sirius to the dementors. (I've even surprised myself! )
Snape was a bit nuts at that time. Harry notices that there's a 'mad glint' in Snape's eyes during the confrontation. "He seemed beyond reason." There is a difference between capslock Shrieking Shack Snape and regular everyday sarcastic Snape.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 28, 2008 2:50 pm (#46 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 3:51 pm
Harry is alive, and it's due in no small part to the training he got at the hands of Severus Snape.
Really? What, specifically did Harry learn from Snape that he actually used in any of the situations he found himself in, particularly the final confrontation?
As I recall:
- Harry learned the Expelliarmus from Lockhart (of all people).
- Harry learned - and was even able to pass on to others - the extremely advanced Patronus Charm from Remus Lupin.
- Harry learned about Horcruxes from both Dumbledore and Slughorn.
- Harry learned about the Hallows from Dumbledore, with Hermione as intermediary.
- Harry learned about wand lore directly from Ollivander, the wand master.
- Harry learned the truth of the Prophecy from Dumbledore (as well as Snape's part in it).
- Harry learned all of Tom Riddle's secrets, and that "magic leaves a trace" from Dumbledore.
It's true that Harry learned that Snape had loved his mother. And I would even say that he learned the theory of Occlumency/Legilimency from Snape. However, as far as actual "training" in it, this never was of any use to Harry. I think the only "training" Harry really got from Snape was when Harry used Snape's old potions textbook. But this was nothing to do with Snape, himself.
Soul Search - Jul 28, 2008 2:51 pm (#47 of 2988)
I don't know that Snape wanted to actually get Harry expelled, but more wantd to show Dumbledore that he was right in his assessment of Harry. Recall the "The Prince's Tale" scene where Snape says Harry is worthless and Dumbledore says the other teachers find him otherwise.
Snape was very pleased with the CoS flying car scene. Dumbledore should have expelled him (and Ron) and probably had to stick up for Harry with the Ministry to keep them from punishing him for breaking wizarding law. This scene proved, in Snape's mind anyway, that Harry was just like James, who also should have been expelled.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 28, 2008 3:08 pm (#48 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 4:12 pm
I have to disagree that Harry (and Ron) should have been expelled for the flying car. They were just two stupid 12-year-old boys who really didn't consider the huge reality of what they were doing.
And it's not like they didn't actually stop to think about it. Harry does ask about the Secrecy Statute, having recently been issued a warning for use of magic outside of school. But Ron either doesn't understand the law (likely) or assumes that they are protected under the exceptions.
I think Dumbledore and McGonagall were very reasonable and fair in the way they handled the situation. After all, it's not like either Harry or Ron got away with anything. Writing to one's parents may not sound like it, but it is about the worst punishment there is in the eyes of a child who has been called to the Head's office.
PeskyPixie - Jul 28, 2008 3:55 pm (#49 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 4:56 pm
"I have to disagree that Harry (and Ron) should have been expelled for the flying car. They were just two stupid 12-year-old boys who really didn't consider the huge reality of what they were doing." -Quinn
While I respect your opinion, Quinn, I think that Harry and Ron's adventure with the flying car is supposed to be regarded as highly serious in the Magical world. That is why even Dumbledore warns them of expulsion if they do something similar in the future. (Obviously Dumbledore won't expel Harry, but Harry doesn't know that. Dumbledore uses the threat to let them know just how serious their actions have been.)
mona amon - Jul 28, 2008 9:11 pm (#50 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 10:22 pm
As I recall: - Harry learned the Expelliarmus from Lockhart (of all people). (Quinn)
Oh no, Quinn! We only ever see Lockhart using Peskipixie Pesternomi which didn't work, some non-verbal spell that removes all the bones from Harry's arm and of course, obliviate, which is the only thing that he seems to know. We never see him using Expelliarmus. That's something Harry definitely learned from Snape. This is what happened when Snape and Lockhart duelled each other in CoS,
"Both of them swung their wands up and over their shoulders. Snape cried: 'Expelliarmus!' There was a dazzling flash of scarlet light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet....Malfoy and some of the other Slytherins cheered."
Now Harry could have learned the spell from anyone. Unlike occlumency, it wasn't something that Snape alone could teach him. Still, the author had him learn his signature spell from Snape and no other, so I find it symbolic. And she really emphasises the fact. Later in the book we have Harry attacking Lockhart, "...Harry bellowed, 'Expelliarmus!' Lockhart was blasted backwards....'Shouldn't have let Professor Snape teach us that one,' said Harry furiously,..."
This incident is particularly memorable for me because it's the one and only time that Harry uses 'Professor' before Snape's name when he doesn't really have to!
In GoF he thinks of the Duelling Club when Voldemort uses the word 'Duel' and of the only thing he learnt there, Expelliarmus. And of course he uses it against Voldemort with such unexpected results.
I suppose Draco, whose 'Expelliarmus' is so important in the final defeat also learnt it from Snape at the Duelling Club.
Well, in my own analysis of the story, I don't recall Remus lying to Harry. True, he could have just explained about the Map, but the way he words his explanation to Harry ("They would have wanted to lure you...") tells me that, for Remus, the Marauders days are long gone. He is a completely different person, who knows how wrong some of the things they did were. He knows he was wrong to lie to Dumbledore in those days, and to keep lying to him now. It is a coping skill Remus has extreme difficulty overcoming. But I don't remember him every lying to Harry about anything. (Quinn)
As I said earlier, Remus has a history through the series of fudging on the truth in order to protect himself, keep the goodwill of others, etc. He does fudge the truth with Harry on more than one occasion. 1. He won't tell him that he is one of the creators of the Map. 2. He won't tell him, in direct answer to a direct question about whether Remus knew Harry's dad, that he was a close friend, implying instead that he was only an acquaintance. 3. He tells Harry that the enmity between James and Snape was because Snape was jealous over James' Quidditch skills. While Lupin may think that had something to do with it, no one could be so clueless as to really believe that was the main reason Snape disliked James. 4. In DH, Lupin tries at first to conceal the situation between himself and his family. Yes, I can understand why he did all of these things, but they do show him fudging the truth to Harry on numerous occasions.
Julia H. - Jul 26, 2008 7:46 am (#27 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 8:46 am
I saw that James and his friends never paid a bit of attention to Lily and Snape at all ... until Snape said the word Slytherin. (Solitaire)
That is quite clear but I still don’t know why James has to start the exchange just because he has heard the word Slytherin. Or if he knows that Slytherin is such a bad place that he just has to say something when hearing that someone wants to go there, why does he not say something more benevolent, trying to call the other boy’s attention to the bad things he has heard about that house? Apparently, he is just entering the old, pre-LV rivalry between the houses. Then, if this is OK, then why is the noise (I mean noise!) Snape makes or his "brawny and brainy" comment any worse? (Is brawny a negative word in English?) Yes, it is mutual name-calling until James tries to trip Snape. That is not name-calling any more and I see no justification for it.
Snape's real problem with his CHOICE is that he tries to justify his Dark Arts/DE activities by comparing them to what James and the Marauders are doing--mainly breaking school rules.
I guess the Slytherins were also breaking the school-rules but I definitely think that in the case of both the Marauders and Mulciber it was very serious rule-breaking and I cannot see the difference between the actions of the two sides. BTW, we see the Marauders hang a student upside down in the air, make him gag and choke, try to strip him in public, make a public show of his humiliation – and I DON’T CARE whether the means they use are dark or light, it does not make any difference to the victim. On the other hand we know Mulciber tried to do some dark magic trick to a fellow student as a “laugh”. Snape’s crime seems to be only knowing about it and not rejecting it. It is not the same as personally doing it. The Marauders, however, do the trick themselves, at least James and Sirius do and Lupin and Pettigrew know and do not reject it. As it happens we never ever see Snape publicly humiliating, torturing or stripping anyone (not even Lily accuses him of that) – and yet the crime of this Slytherin student seems worse to many readers than whatever the Marauders do.
Recently the following quote has caught my attention. HRH are talking about Levicorpus and Harry remembers seeing his father use it.
’Maybe your dad did use it, Harry,’ said Hermione, ‘but he’s not the only one. We’ve seen a whole bunch of people use it, in case you’ve forgotten. Dangling people in the air. Making them float along, asleep, helpless.’
She is talking about the DE’s after the Quidditch World Cup. So where is the great difference between the bullying actions of the Marauders’ and DE actions?
As to the "good guys" trying to push him into the wrong direction ... I do not buy it. I don't think they want him to become a DE.
I did not mean to say they wanted him to become a DE but perhaps I was not clear enough. I do think, however, that their bullying pushed Snape towards his fellow Slytherins. Honestly, what is an “oddball” likely to do if he has to be afraid of being attacked by the school bullies (“four on one”) whenever he leaves Slytherin House and the teachers are either unable or unwilling to do anything about the bullying? Then most of the school will laugh at his torment. He will probably stick with those guys who do not attack him. If the bullies tormenting him are popular and seem to be liked and approved of by teachers and students alike, why should he think that the bullies who attack others, not him should be judged any worse? (And no, Lily does not explain it to him or to anyone.)
As I have already said, the Marauders pushed Snape towards the bad side by helping to isolate him (as Harry was isolated in primary school because of Dudley and his gang) outside Slytherin. Though I don’t know whether Snape blames James for the break-up between Lily and himself or not, James certainly “pushed a button” in Lily’s presence, which directly led to their breaking-up. I emphasized that I did not put all the blame on James but James certainly played a part.
As for whether Snape would have become a DE if James had not been at Hogwarts at all – we do not know. But a lot of things may have been different for him in those seven years.
I can't give him a pass on his treatment of Harry just because James gave him a rough time.
Just because we are discussing James’s faults, we are not giving Snape a „pass“ on his treatment of Harry. But we cannot judge the child Snape because of the actions of the adult Snape either.
PeskyPixie - Jul 26, 2008 7:46 am (#28 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 9:18 am
"James has no reason to start picking on another kid just because he wants to be in a House which is the rival House of the one James's family tends to belong to." -Pesky
"I found this to be a very realistic interaction between boys, particularly of that age. Boys bond through aggression: rough-housing and insults. Through this, there is an unconscious sort of ritual over establishing a hierarchy of dominance." -Quinn
I wasn't commenting on whether it's realistic or not. Girls of that age can be far nastier than boys, but that wouldn't cause me to excuse the instigator on the grounds that, 'hey, it's realistic'. By the way, not all kids (both male and female) automatically resort to aggression and insults in order to bond.
"James is clearly taking the Alpha position. He is confident in who he is. He doesn't like Slytherin (for whatever reason ... ) ... What kind of a person would want to be in Slytherin after all?" -Quinn
Obviously, that's how young James works. However, being confident in yourself doesn't give you the right to impose your beliefs on others. James is very realistically written; he's a snotty brat of a kid who needs to be taken down a few pegs. Young Harry is nothing like him (that's not say James does not mature into a wonderful young man by the time he is eighteen, but he is a highly irritating kid during this incident). If anything Lily's defense of Severus reminds me of Harry sticking up for poor, shabby Ron against rich, spoiled Malfoy and his followers.
"He tests Sirius on the matter ... Fortunately, Sirius seems to willingly take the Beta position. "And I thought you seemed all right!" Sirius could have taken offense at this remark, but because he laughs, he shows he is equally interested in bonding with James ("Maybe I'll break [family] tradition"), who only wants to be in the same House as his dad." -Quinn
That's how I see this as well, except I don't understand why anyone has to feel 'fortunate' in taking the Beta position? Why should Sirius be expected to submit himself to James's beliefs in order to be his friend? Granted, Sirius wants to distance himself from his nutty family, but I can not deny that I am uneasy about this assumption that this potential Slytherin is being saved by submitting to this dominant future Gryffindor. I have a problem with the latent idea that others should simply want to be blessed with James's friendship simply on the grounds that he is a dominant kid who wants to be in Gryffindor.
"But Snape immediately takes offense - understandable. But in doing so, he gives James the power. Snape tries to put himself on a higher plain with the "tsk-ing" of James's desire to follow in his father's footsteps ("Got a problem with that?"). Snape could have simply said no, he didn't have a problem with James wanting to be in Gryffindor and James would probably not have paid him any more attention. There's nothing more to be said to that answer, really. But instead Snape adds, (quite unnecessarily, in my opinion) "If you'd rather be brawny than brainy". Like Sirius, he sets the tone for his relationship with James by the way he responds to James's line of inquiry." -Quinn
Ah, I see, James is aggressively bonding with Snape by insulting Slytherin but by equalling insulting Gryffindor Severus is being 'unnecessarily' rude and therefore he actually provokes James into the creation of the hostile relationship which develops between them.
Forgive me, but I understand the psychology of the entire situation. As Quinn mentions, it is highly realistic. However, my point isn't about whether it's realistic or not as even in a real life situation James is the instigator and hardly admirable in nature. He's a jerk who is used to exerting his dominance over others and doesn't take well when that right to dominance is questioned (especially by a runt like Snape, who should obviously be the omega member of his pack).
If James were a Slytherin picking on Severus's desire to be in Gryffindor I think more of us would applaud Sev for sticking up for himself and not submitting to the rich, spoiled Slytherin bully who is used to having everything his own way. We seem to make excuses to pardon the bad manners of Gryffindors because they are the 'heroes' of the story and Gryffindor House is the one which most readers prefer to identify with. Thus, anything negative regarding this House and its members is taken personally.
Julia H. - Jul 26, 2008 8:56 am (#29 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 11:26 am
Well said, Pesky, I absolutely agree.
James's best friend had got Snape into danger - Julia
In my view, Snape, and Snape alone, got Snape into danger. (Quinn)
Since we have read the same books, we probably have very different ideas of the question of responsibility. IMO, if you know a place of mortal danger, which most other people do not know, and – knowing the extent of this danger – you tell another person to go there and tell him how to get there too, without actually mentioning what is there, it qualifies as getting that person into danger. Granted, Snape did not need to go there just because Sirius had told him but Snape’s mistake does not excuse Sirius’s behaviour. BTW, we do not know how Sirius told him to go there, but it may not have been in the simplest words. Sirius does have a certain inherited (?) Slytherinness in him and if Snape knew the Marauders had been down there (without knowing that they had been there in the shapes of animals), he may have supposed he could do what they could or may have wanted to show that he dared as much as they did. However incautious Snape may have been, Sirius was also to blame.
I am sure if Snape had died or become a werewolf and there had been an investigation and the full story had come to light, not only Lupin the innocent werewolf but Sirius and maybe even James and Pettigrew would have been expelled from Hogwarts because:
1. They were not allowed to go down the tunnel day or night but least of all when a werewolf was there, yet that is what they did and that is why they knew the secret of the tunnel. 2. They were unregistered animagi, that is they broke wizarding law (not just a school-rule). 3. Sirius spread the dangerous knowledge about how to get into the tunnel to yet another person, even encouraging him to try and go there.
So whatever we, readers, think of Sirius’s responsibility, James knew that all four of the Marauders could be in great trouble, if Sirius’s little joke succeeded. And if Snape was later convinced that James had saved him exclusively for the purpose of saving his friends, well, he was there when it happened. Even if he was mistaken in this regard, I can imagine that James’s overall behaviour may have made him think that. Perhaps James seemed to be the same unrepentant, arrogant bully while saving Snape, as he always was towards him, while Sirius, as we know, found the whole thing “amusing”.
it is precisely this one-sided "bragging" afterwards... - Julia
Which is only an assumption.
OK, you are right there. But the story that Lily heard must have been started either by James or Sirius and if Sirius started it, James does not seem to have stopped him. I don’t think anyone else would have started telling the story, Snape obviously did not and Lupin was not likely either, Dumbledore or any other teacher involved even less (because of Lupin). So, OK, Lily may have heard it from someone other than James but it was still the Marauders’ version, not Snape’s, and Lily believed it, while she did not believe what Snape was trying to tell her about the same event, although Snape had been there, while her “Gryffindor” informant may or may not have been. In this sense, the Marauders did shape Lily’s opinion of Snape. BTW, the reason why I assumed that James had been bragging (if not directly to Lily, then to someone else) is that in SWM, we see him trying to show off in front of girls (especially Lily), doing anything to call attention to himself from messing up his hair to attacking and humiliating someone with no reason at all. He does seem to be the kind of guy who would brag about an incident like this, trying to make his rival look stupid, ungrateful, whatever and trying to make himself look brave and cool. It is only an assumption but I think it is in character at least.
We talk about choices a lot, especially that of Snape’s. But I think James also made a choice when he decided to hex people, curse people because he did not like them. He made a choice when he decided to torture and humiliate his disarmed rival and just because this choice affected the other person more than himself, it was still a CHOICE and James had responsibility for the long-term effects of this choice. IMO it was a bad choice and we never see James regret it or feel any kind of remorse. I think SWM is a turning-point twice in the story. When it happened, it became a turning-point in Snape’s life because that was the ultimate event leading to his break-up with Lily, after which he had no other friends but the Slytherin ones (and, as I said, I believe the bullies had had a hand in making it next to impossible for him to have other friends outside his house). Then about 20 years later, SWM comes back when Harry sees it in the Pensieve. It becomes a turning-point again: the Occlumency lessons stop, the relationship between Harry and Snape becomes worse than it had ever been and not only does Harry fail to learn to close down his mind but he also “forgets” to go to Snape – the only person who could (and would) help him – when he thinks that Sirius had been caught by LV. The result? Sirius, James’s “partner in crime” in SWM, dies and James’s son has to suffer a terrible loss. SWM plays the part of destiny and it was started by James just to entertain Sirius.
Anna L. Black - Jul 26, 2008 10:02 am (#30 of 2988)
When reading the last posts, I started thinking about Mulciber's "joke" on Mary McDonald. The only thing we ever learn about Mulciber is what Karkaroff says about him in his trial - "he specialized in the Imperius Curse, forced countless people to do horrific things!". Could that be what he did to Mary? If that is what JKR had in mind, then she might have seen as really worse than what the marauders did.
Then again, as she herslef had Hermione compare the Marauders' actions (Levicorpus) to what the DEs did, maybe she did think that one's not better than the other in this case. Hard to tell, as she's not very definitive on that issue (and she has Harry use Imperius as well...)
Julia H. - Jul 26, 2008 10:45 am (#31 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 11:59 am
See, whatever Mulciber did, I am sure it was something horrible and only JKR knows why she did not specify what it was. However, what the Marauders did was horrible as well, quite independent of Mulciber. And then again, I don't know why we should equate Mulciber with Snape, when we don't even know if Snape was there at all when the mentioned incident happened.
I think we have James and Sirius on one side and they were bullies and so was Mulciber but on the other side. Lily, who saw herself threatened by the likes of Mulciber, preferred the Marauders to Mulciber. Snape, who was threatened and regularly attacked by the Marauders, preferred the likes of Mulciber to the Marauders. As simple as that. Choices are important but what they are influenced by is often nothing else but the mundane, day-to-day bleak reality surrounding the persons who choose and if these people have little experience (they are young!), perhaps even more so.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 26, 2008 10:59 am (#32 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 12:06 pm
If Snape thinks that Lily is attracted to James (which she is), and that the friends Snape is cultivating are similar to the Marauders, then that helps us understand why Snape thought becoming a powerful, Dark wizard would appeal to Lily. - Wynnleaf
Good point. However, Lily seems well enough aware of the kind of person James is and says so. That doesn't mean she can't find him attractive physically or admire his bravado. Certainly his personal energy would be far more attractive than dark and dour ol' Sev.
This probably really belongs on the Lupin Thread, but...
1. [Remus] won't tell [Harry] that he is one of the creators of the Map. - In fairness, he does later reveal his part in creating it. But initially, he is acting in a position of authority over Harry. To explain about the Map at that point would have meant having to reveal personal information about not only himself but Snape as well. It would have been pretty unprofessional - or at least, inappropriate - for him to go into the age old rivalry between Snape and himself (as one of the Marauders). By not answering Harry directly, Remus was able to make his point yet keep the past in the past - at least for the time being.
2. He won't tell him, in direct answer to a direct question about whether Remus knew Harry's dad, that he was a close friend, implying instead that he was only an acquaintance.
Harry looked up. "Why -- you didn't know my dad, did you?" "I -- I did, as a matter of fact," said Lupin. "We were friends at Hogwarts." (PA ch. 12) Doesn't sound to me like he regards their relationship as "only an acquaintance".
3. He tells Harry that the enmity between James and Snape was because Snape was jealous over James' Quidditch skills. While Lupin may think that had something to do with it, no one could be so clueless as to really believe that was the main reason Snape disliked James.
Lupin wasn't there when James and Snape met. The two disliked each other instantly and everything that transpires between them is rooted here. Lupin likely only knows that James hates Snape and vice versa. He may never have fully understood why.
But I take it you are referring to the bullying, in which case, again I suggest that Lupin is actually atempting to protect Snape's privacy.
4. In DH, Lupin tries at first to conceal the situation between himself and his family. - I disgree. Lupin isn't trying to conceal anything. He simply views his situation from the very skewed vantage point of having been regarded all his life as unworthy of even an equal place in society, let alone anything even resembling happiness. In Remus's mind, Tonks and the baby would be better off without him there.
By the way, not all kids (both male and female) automatically resort to aggression and insults in order to bond. - Pesky
Of course not. I was making a generalization, and there will always be exceptions to any generalization.
being confident in yourself doesn't give you the right to impose your beliefs on others - Pesky
I didn't see James as "imposing his beliefs". He's trying to find out what kind of people he is sharing the compartment with, whether or not they are "friend" material.
I don't understand why anyone has to feel 'fortunate' in taking the Beta position - I just meant that, in terms of testing the friendship waters, Sirius is not interested in a fight for dominance. He tacitly accepts the terms of the friendship offered. He agrees with James on this one point and sees a potential friend. But that doesn't mean Sirius is "submitting". He is simply not challenging the Alpha position, which he could certainly do if he wanted.
Ah, I see, James is aggressively bonding with Snape by insulting Slytherin but by equalling insulting Gryffindor Severus is being 'unnecessarily' rude and therefore he actually provokes James into the creation of the hostile relationship which develops between them.
Not exactly. James is definitely inciting something here and deliberately so. I just meant that the reaction he gets from each other person will tell him whether or not there is potential for a relationship.
But really, one could argue that James is not "insulting" Slytherin at all; that he is simply stating that he would be so unhappy about being sorted into any House other than the one he really wants, that he would rather leave school. But given the climate of the times (this would have been the early 1970's and Voldemort pretty well-established), I'm sure the Slytherin connection to Voldemort must have been, if not widely known, certainly rumored about.
The reason I found Snape's barb "unnecessary" is because he's already made his opinion clear and so has James. The two have already established that neither is a likely candidate for friendship with the other. But also because Snape's comment seems to be more directed at James's desire to be like his dad; and isn't there some sort of "insult etiquette" about never insulting the other person's family?
By the way, I'm not assigning blame here. It takes two to tango and two wrongs don't make a right and all that.
the story that Lily heard [about "the prank"] must have been started either by James or Sirius and if Sirius started it, James does not seem to have stopped him. - Julia
Yes, I see what you mean about Sirius's culpability in the prank on Snape. But I still don't really agree that goading someone into doing something - especially someone who is extremely unlikely, by the looks of things, to listen - makes the "goad-er" accountable. I mean, it's not like Sirius was Snape's mentor or older brother or parent or anyone else whose instructions Snape would follow. He was Snape's enemy.
And, again, Harry and Quirrell were down in the bottom chamber alone. Harry was even shocked to discover Quirrell there. Afterwards, Harry was unconscious for several days, apparently, so he certainly didn't say anything. And yet "the whole school knows". But even if one of them did say something, why assume "the Marauders version" isn't the truth? James, after all, "was there" too.
Yes, SWM is definitely a major pivot point in the whole story. Excellent points on its ongoing repercussions, Julia. And I also agree with the idea of Lily choosing the lesser of two evils, in a sense, regarding the inherent "evils" of the Marauders vs. Mulciber.
This may be a personal record for my longest post on any forum ever.
Julia H. - Jul 26, 2008 11:22 am (#33 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 1:16 pm
But I still don't really agree that goading someone into doing something - especially someone who is extremely unlikely, by the looks of things, to listen - makes the "goad-er" accountable. (Quinn)
OK, so we just disagree here. But again, as I said, James probably was more interested in the practical "legal" consequences of the joke than in the more theoretical interpretations of accountability.
Regarding the latter, what do you say if I find Sirius culpable for apparently wanting Snape to go down that dangerous tunnel and enjoying seeing that another human being - as you say - was getting himself into danger? I also find him culpable for not trying to stop him when he saw that Snape was indeed going there. I mean he would have had to try to stop anybody from going into the tunnel (even if he had not played a part in sending them there) - it would have been the right thing to do.
Afterwards, Harry was unconscious for several days, apparently, so he certainly didn't say anything. And yet "the whole school knows".
Well, Ron and Hermione were quite close, so they could have told a couple of things and Quirrell's death/"disappearance" was certainly noticed - and then DD may have given some explanations to certain people who asked questions. The Stone was protected by a group after all (which included Hagrid!). However, in the case of the Prank, there was a reason to keep everything in secret because of Lupin - and Lily was more likely to hear the story in the Gryffindor Tower than in the staff room.
EDIT: But even if one of them did say something, why assume "the Marauders version" isn't the truth?
Did I see that it was not the truth? It was not the same story as Snape's however. I brought up the whole point as an instance of James influencing Lily's opinion of Snape and what we can see from Lily's words is that she thought Snape was "ungrateful" and James heroic and was not ready to believe that Snape may have had a point as well. She does not seem to know about Sirius finding her friend's danger "amusing" either, which was certainly part of the truth, since not only Snape but Lupin used this word later as well. I think I used the word "one-sided", not "untrue". It did seem to be a version favouring the Marauders more than Snape found it justified.
Wynnleaf's post after this one makes me think perhaps if the light side had been on the whole better and less flawed, Voldemort and the dark side could not have been in power for such a long time and perhaps there would not have been a need for a single "Chosen One" to finish him. If this is true in the case of the adult society, perhaps something similar may be true in the school as well: if the "good guys" had been really good and less flawed, perhaps fewer people had been attracted to the dark side.
wynnleaf - Jul 26, 2008 11:41 am (#34 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 12:44 pm
I know that in retrospect it's easy to say that the Marauders, however bullying they were in school, would become the kind of people who would join the Order eventually, whereas Mulciber and Snape's other friends, however we might equate their cruelty as students to the Marauders, were on their way to joining a pureblood elitist group that would murder and torture people who didn't agree with them.
But I don't think JKR actually makes the adult versions of the political camps these people joined necessarily so distinctly good and bad. Sure, she clearly shows that the Death Eaters favored pureblood elitist ideas and that as a group they were willing to kill and torture people they hated in order to get their way.
The flip side is that she shows us that the opposing Ministry side of things, the established government during that period, was a regime that imprisoned people without trial, subjecting them to the torture of dementors which eventually killed many, according to Sirius. How many, like Sirius, were innocent? The "good" side also had its biases against werewolves and giants, and was willing to curtail their ability to hold jobs and feed themselves. And the "good" side, during the Marauder period, was willing to authorize the use of unforgiveables in order to stop the bad Death Eaters.
I guess what I'm getting at is that the "good" side didn't threaten muggleborns, but they did have their own wrongful biases and hateful practices. The fact that Snape's friends do cruel things and later join the Death Eaters is not necessarily in some kind of direct contrast to the Marauders, who also act cruelly to others and, while they don't ally themselves to the Evil of Voldemort, they do ally themselves, though somewhat indirectly, to a regime that imprisoned, tortured and killed even the innocent.
I agree that joining Voldemort is definitely the worse choice, but allying oneself to the supposed "good" side in this case is not some indicator of righteousness.
Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2008 1:50 pm (#35 of 2988)
Edited Jul 26, 2008 2:50 pm
A while back Quinn said, "He tests Sirius on the matter ... Fortunately, Sirius seems to willingly take the Beta position."
I'm not sure that he took the beta posistion. I think that he is a Slytherin at heart and is quite content to lead while appearing to be the beta. At least that is my reading of the worst memory scene.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 26, 2008 2:21 pm (#36 of 2988)
I also find him culpable for not trying to stop him when he saw that Snape was indeed going there. - Julia
Hm. Well yes, if that is where you hold Sirius accountable, then yes, I would have to agree with you. Not acting when one should and has the power to do so is just as much a violation of humanity's laws as actively causing destruction, in my opinion.
Good points, Wynnleaf. I am pleased that JKR tells us (through Sirius, of all people, who is essentially defending Snape, his arch-nemesis, when he says), "Well, the world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters." On this point, at least, she is clear. Even Dumbledore is ultimately called into the light of "just how 'good' is "Good" anyway?"
Steve, good point as well. Sirius does seem to be quite manipulative in a "man behind the curtain" sort of way.
Madam Pince - Jul 27, 2008 10:08 pm (#37 of 2988)
Wynnleaf, if I ever get into trouble, I want you as my lawyer. (And I don't even know if you're a lawyer or not...)
James, as a "big man on campus," set in motion the way everyone else viewed Snape. --me
That is granting James rather a lot of power, assuming he dictates the way every other kid in school views another person. He didn't dictate how Lily viewed Snape, did he? Snape did that himself. Are we sure that everyone else at Hogwarts viewed Snape as James did ... or just the Marauders, meaning James and 3 other kids? --Soli
Well, that was kind of what I was saying... yes, I do think James dictated how Lily viewed Snape. Not necessarily by telling her things from his slant, nor by "pushing" Snape into being a DE (I don't think James wanted Snape to be a DE -- I don't think he thought of him enough to care what he was. James seems to have mostly thought about James.) In my original post I was intending to convey that James dictated how everyone ended up viewing Snape because James' tormenting is what started Snape's behavior back at him, which started a sort of downward spiral that Snape could not escape from. (And I'm not just talking here about how Hogwartsians viewed Student-Snape; I'm talking about his whole life.) James caused Snape to act the way Snape did (hence eventually dictating Lily's judgement) because of the constant tormenting that James gave him. Yes, perhaps Snape had a choice of how to react, (as you say) but in my view, he really didn't have much of one. Once a popular, dominant, domineering bully has you in his sights, you pretty much almost have to react. My original point was that if James had just left Snape alone, even, (let alone been commonly civil to him) when they were children, then Snape's life could've been so very very different. But Snape had to be constantly on the defensive (which is not very attractive,) which thus leads to constant bitterness, (again not very attractive), and so on down. It all started with James; whether or not Snape could've possibly changed it is irrelevant to how Snape (or I) views the original responsibility of the situation.
Like Pesky and Mona, I also think the "gave as good as he got" is more of a positive than a negative. If he was being bullied, I would hope he gave as good as he got! As others said, the "giving" wouldn't be necessary without the "gotting," so again, Snape didn't start it. He should not be faulted for standing up for himself. Was there a better way to do so? Maybe. But he clearly hadn't had much childhood training in social graces, so we can't expect much.
(Just for the record, I absolutely do give a "pass" to Snape for his treatment of Harry. I firmly stand by my assessment of Snape as a "drill instructor" in the military -- he is training Harry to keep himself alive... and Snape succeeds. Harry ends up alive --period, end of story. If Snape had been nicey-nice, and Harry ended up dead, that to me wouldn't have been the preferred resolution of the story. Thus, for keeping Harry alive in the end, yes, Snape wins a pass from me. The one "inexcusable" comment that I don't give Snape a pass for is not directed at Harry -- it's his "I see no difference" comment to Hermione about her teeth. There was no reason for that insult. It was mean. I chalk it up to having itchy underwear or a migraine or something. )
Solitaire - Jul 27, 2008 10:48 pm (#38 of 2988)
I firmly stand by my assessment of Snape as a "drill instructor" in the military -- he is training Harry to keep himself alive... and Snape succeeds.
On more than one occasion, Snape tries to get Harry expelled from Hogwarts. Was he trying to save him then? I don't think so. I mean, what would have become of Harry if he had been expelled? Snape took a vow to help before Lily died, and afterwards, when things went badly, he was stuck. He had given his word to Dumbledore. So, yeah, he taught Harry. There were other ways he could have dealt with Harry, though. He CHOSE to treat Harry unkindly because he could. If he could have done more to hurt him emotionally, I think he would have done. It was his way (in his mind, of course) of getting back at James.
In truth, I do not think Snape ever expected Harry to succeed with Dumbledore's "task," despite Dumbledore's assurance that "If I know him, he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort." Snape always undervalued Harry's intelligence, his magical ability, and his determination. I suspect he was stunned when Harry showed up at his side at the moment of his death.
Solitaire
PeskyPixie - Jul 28, 2008 5:32 am (#39 of 2988)
Snape does not try to get Harry expelled after Voldy makes his return.
mona amon - Jul 28, 2008 6:29 am (#40 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 7:31 am
I chalk it up to having itchy underwear or a migraine or something. (Madam Pince)
.**Giggle** Or maybe he was just having a bad hair day!
On more than one occasion, Snape tries to get Harry expelled from Hogwarts. (Soli)
I can't really believe he's serious about it. I mean, he'd really love to do so, but surely he knows he cannot do his irksome job of protecting him if he's kicked out of Hogwarts. In CoS he tells him that he cannot expel him, but he'll go and fetch the people who can, and then returns with Dumbledore and Minerva. Surely he knows that Dumbledore is not going to expel him. I think he was just trying to scare them, but was disappointed that the punishment they got was nothing worse than a letter to their families.
I do not exactly give Snape a pass for his treatment of Harry. I feel it's completely unjustifiable. But it's such a small part of the larger picture, and Harry does not seem to have suffered any damage. I feel Snape's attitude towards Harry did more emotional harm to himself than to Harry.
Soul Search - Jul 28, 2008 6:58 am (#41 of 2988)
Snape was always sneaking around trying to get James and his friends expelled. This activity was what prompted Sirius to direct Snape to the Whomping Willow tunnel setting up the "prank."
So, James' son comes to Hogwarts, he looks like James did when he was at Hogwarts, and Snape just picks up where he left off. We even get examples of him "sneaking" around, trying to get Harry and his friends expelled. In spite of promising Dumbledore he would help protect Harry, he tries to get him removed from Hogwarts where neither he nor Dumbledore would be able to protect him. Really irresponsible, childish behavior for an adult and a teacher.
Along came Voldemort at the end of GoF and Snape needed to change his attitude. But, after GoF, Snape is influenced by both Dumbledore and Voldemort. It may be difficult to separate a change in Snape's attitude toward Harry from changes directed by these additional complications.
We see in "The Prince's Tale" that Dumbledore told Snape Harry had to die. Can we pinpoint when this occurred? That is, without consulting "The Prince's Tale," can we tell when Dumbledore told Snape from a change in Snape's attitude toward Harry? Given JKR's detailed planning, I would expect some sort of flag, but can't cite one.
The Occulmency lessons may be the turning point, but it is hard to tell.
Madam Pince - Jul 28, 2008 12:36 pm (#42 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 1:39 pm
On more than one occasion, Snape tries to get Harry expelled from Hogwarts. Was he trying to save him then? I don't think so. --Soli
It's interesting you should say this -- actually, there was some passage that I listened to yesterday that made me think that's exactly what Snape was doing. Unfortunately, now I can't remember what that passage was. I'll try and look it up.
But truly I think more along the lines of Mona Amon -- Snape does not seriously want Harry expelled, certainly not after Voldemort's return, as Pesky said. Give me a break, Snape has to know that Dumbledore is not going to expel Harry, and the headmaster is the only one with the power to do so, I believe. I agree with Mona -- he's just trying to scare him into recognizing that the situation is serious.
I know we'll never agree on this, but for me, bottom line is... Harry is alive, and it's due in no small part to the training he got at the hands of Severus Snape. Plus Snape helped to stiffen Harry's spine.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 28, 2008 1:28 pm (#43 of 2988)
I know Snape threatens to expel Harry a number of times but I don't see that as proof enough that Snape wanted Harry out of the school. Snape says lots of things that he doesn't follow through on (such as giving Sirius Black to the dementers.)
Solitaire - Jul 28, 2008 1:43 pm (#44 of 2988)
His opportunity to "follow through" is interrupted. He hates Sirius enough that he might well have done it!
PeskyPixie - Jul 28, 2008 2:12 pm (#45 of 2988)
I think I agree with Soli on sending Sirius to the dementors. (I've even surprised myself! )
Snape was a bit nuts at that time. Harry notices that there's a 'mad glint' in Snape's eyes during the confrontation. "He seemed beyond reason." There is a difference between capslock Shrieking Shack Snape and regular everyday sarcastic Snape.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 28, 2008 2:50 pm (#46 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 3:51 pm
Harry is alive, and it's due in no small part to the training he got at the hands of Severus Snape.
Really? What, specifically did Harry learn from Snape that he actually used in any of the situations he found himself in, particularly the final confrontation?
As I recall:
- Harry learned the Expelliarmus from Lockhart (of all people).
- Harry learned - and was even able to pass on to others - the extremely advanced Patronus Charm from Remus Lupin.
- Harry learned about Horcruxes from both Dumbledore and Slughorn.
- Harry learned about the Hallows from Dumbledore, with Hermione as intermediary.
- Harry learned about wand lore directly from Ollivander, the wand master.
- Harry learned the truth of the Prophecy from Dumbledore (as well as Snape's part in it).
- Harry learned all of Tom Riddle's secrets, and that "magic leaves a trace" from Dumbledore.
It's true that Harry learned that Snape had loved his mother. And I would even say that he learned the theory of Occlumency/Legilimency from Snape. However, as far as actual "training" in it, this never was of any use to Harry. I think the only "training" Harry really got from Snape was when Harry used Snape's old potions textbook. But this was nothing to do with Snape, himself.
Soul Search - Jul 28, 2008 2:51 pm (#47 of 2988)
I don't know that Snape wanted to actually get Harry expelled, but more wantd to show Dumbledore that he was right in his assessment of Harry. Recall the "The Prince's Tale" scene where Snape says Harry is worthless and Dumbledore says the other teachers find him otherwise.
Snape was very pleased with the CoS flying car scene. Dumbledore should have expelled him (and Ron) and probably had to stick up for Harry with the Ministry to keep them from punishing him for breaking wizarding law. This scene proved, in Snape's mind anyway, that Harry was just like James, who also should have been expelled.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 28, 2008 3:08 pm (#48 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 4:12 pm
I have to disagree that Harry (and Ron) should have been expelled for the flying car. They were just two stupid 12-year-old boys who really didn't consider the huge reality of what they were doing.
And it's not like they didn't actually stop to think about it. Harry does ask about the Secrecy Statute, having recently been issued a warning for use of magic outside of school. But Ron either doesn't understand the law (likely) or assumes that they are protected under the exceptions.
I think Dumbledore and McGonagall were very reasonable and fair in the way they handled the situation. After all, it's not like either Harry or Ron got away with anything. Writing to one's parents may not sound like it, but it is about the worst punishment there is in the eyes of a child who has been called to the Head's office.
PeskyPixie - Jul 28, 2008 3:55 pm (#49 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 4:56 pm
"I have to disagree that Harry (and Ron) should have been expelled for the flying car. They were just two stupid 12-year-old boys who really didn't consider the huge reality of what they were doing." -Quinn
While I respect your opinion, Quinn, I think that Harry and Ron's adventure with the flying car is supposed to be regarded as highly serious in the Magical world. That is why even Dumbledore warns them of expulsion if they do something similar in the future. (Obviously Dumbledore won't expel Harry, but Harry doesn't know that. Dumbledore uses the threat to let them know just how serious their actions have been.)
mona amon - Jul 28, 2008 9:11 pm (#50 of 2988)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 10:22 pm
As I recall: - Harry learned the Expelliarmus from Lockhart (of all people). (Quinn)
Oh no, Quinn! We only ever see Lockhart using Peskipixie Pesternomi which didn't work, some non-verbal spell that removes all the bones from Harry's arm and of course, obliviate, which is the only thing that he seems to know. We never see him using Expelliarmus. That's something Harry definitely learned from Snape. This is what happened when Snape and Lockhart duelled each other in CoS,
"Both of them swung their wands up and over their shoulders. Snape cried: 'Expelliarmus!' There was a dazzling flash of scarlet light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet....Malfoy and some of the other Slytherins cheered."
Now Harry could have learned the spell from anyone. Unlike occlumency, it wasn't something that Snape alone could teach him. Still, the author had him learn his signature spell from Snape and no other, so I find it symbolic. And she really emphasises the fact. Later in the book we have Harry attacking Lockhart, "...Harry bellowed, 'Expelliarmus!' Lockhart was blasted backwards....'Shouldn't have let Professor Snape teach us that one,' said Harry furiously,..."
This incident is particularly memorable for me because it's the one and only time that Harry uses 'Professor' before Snape's name when he doesn't really have to!
In GoF he thinks of the Duelling Club when Voldemort uses the word 'Duel' and of the only thing he learnt there, Expelliarmus. And of course he uses it against Voldemort with such unexpected results.
I suppose Draco, whose 'Expelliarmus' is so important in the final defeat also learnt it from Snape at the Duelling Club.
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PeskyPixie - Jul 29, 2008 9:10 am (#51 of 2988)
Edited Jul 29, 2008 11:05 am
"We only ever see Lockhart using Peskipixie Pesternomi which didn't work ... " -mona
... but it did get me a cool name!
And yeah, Quinn, Harry learns Expelliarmus from Snape.
Muffliato also comes in handy for them. LOL, the funniest were Harry's Sectumsempras against the Inferi!
It's funny how Harry gathers a lot of knowledge from Snape (Hermione even learns of Polyjuice Potion and the book the recipe can be found in from Snape), but learns nothing when taught by Snape. Clearly, Snape has a lot to offer, but his personal issues get in the way of becoming a great teacher (for all students).
EDIT: BTW, mona, I find the Expelliarmus to be symbolic as well. Harry almost sounds like a proud student of Snape's when he says, "Shouldn't have let Professor Snape teach us that one." It seems so out of character (for the relationship Harry and Snape share) that it is very memorable.
Madam Pince - Jul 29, 2008 11:14 am (#52 of 2988)
Edited Jul 29, 2008 12:15 pm
Really? What, specifically did Harry learn from Snape that he actually used in any of the situations he found himself in, particularly the final confrontation?
I did use the word "training," but actually I wasn't thinking only of what Harry learned from Snape, because Harry got other assistance from Snape besides learning. Snape delivered the sword of Gryffindor to Harry when they were camping in the forest. Snape released the "crucio" curse that Amycus (?I think?) put on Harry during the chase out of Hogwarts following Dumbledore's death, which may have been a precursor to Amycus killing him (Snape yelled something like "No! Remember our orders! He belongs only to the Dark Lord!") Snape ran interference during the "Seven Potters Chase," thus probably saving several lives. I'm sure there are more but these are just off the top of my head.
And as to learning from Snape, as people have pointed out, Harry learned Expelliarmus from Snape, not Lockhart. And I would definitely say that Harry learned occlumency/legilimency from Snape. I will have to go back and look to see when/if Harry successfully used those skills because I can't remember off the top of my head.
He learned about bezoars from Snape, which saved Ron's life, and if he hadn't had Ron to help him, who knows if he'd have been able to succeed in eliminating all the horcruxes or not, so that was help in the "final confrontation." (I wasn't really thinking of just the "final" though...)
Harry was able to get the horcrux information from Slughorn because of the fact that he used the Felix Felicis, which he won in class because of the help he got from The Half-Blood Prince's textbook, which was Snape helping him.
He learned about the importance of non-verbal magic from Snape ("Blocked and blocked again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed!")
He learned wand lore from Ollivander, but he learned the crucial fact that Snape did not ever defeat Dumbledore (because they planned DD's death together) from Snape's final memories. This is what enabled Harry to approach Voldemort so confidently in their final confrontation -- Harry knew Voldemort was not the true master of the Elder Wand because of Snape's disclosures to him. This enabled Harry to have a successful plan for Lord Voldemort's final defeat.
I guess I am also thinking about the intangible "spine stiffening" that I mentioned earlier, too. Snape taught Harry to never give in. Harry's hatred of Snape gave him the spine to have an "I'll show you -- I won't give up!" sort of attitude towards everything, which in my mind was an invaluable asset.
Sorry this is a quick response but I have to rush off -- these are just from the top of my head. Anyway, I think there are several instances...
tandaradei - Jul 29, 2008 4:02 pm (#53 of 2988)
Edited Jul 29, 2008 5:21 pm
I've noticed you folks haven't discussed a theme that I think relevant, that may in some ways touch on all of this. The theme is "Did Snape and Dumbledore argue over the prophecy?" I think much can be explained in that.
Yes, they did, IMO.
Dumbledore was a believer; and Snape was a disbeliever, IMO.
And I think the reason for Snape's "disbelief" was guilt. Even if the prophecy was just a nonevent, it nonetheless got Lily killed. To imply it was critical would be to exacerbate his involvement in it. If the prophecy was actually much, much more, this knowledge would hurt, in Snape's having to live with it. (Relevant parts are in red in the prophecy below.)
One could argue that Snape wanted to expell Harry to make up for James never being expelled, (which hasn't been argued much here either); but that's not what I think either. IMO Dumbledore totally believed in the prophecy, and DD's actions confirm this ... from his not trying to kill Voldemort at the Ministry of Magic, to even how he refused to try to remove Harry's scar in the first chapter of the series. Snape however, IMO, wanted to diminish the importance of the prophecy because the prophecy is what got Lilly killed. I'll argue points for Snape's resisting DD's argument after I give the actual prophecy, which I'll do here for reference:
...[cut]...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies .....[cut]...
OP
OK, while I go through the Read-a-long, I'll try to cull out the reasons, but here are some reasons off the top of my head, why Snape wanted to disbelieve both the prophecy and Harry's being "The One"; and why Snape reacted to Harry in certain ways at certain times ... but IMO many times more because of the Prophecy than personal feelings about Harry. Here are some thing's I'll try to argue:
Snape's insistence that Harry was mediocre, which is usually defined as "ordinary," and one NOT distinguished out of a crowd ... which would be opposite to that given in the prophecy.
Snape's true desire, IMO, that Harry be expelled, thus strengthening his case that Harry was not the Chosen One of the prophecy. (Being expelled would IMO reduce his "white knight" status, as given in the prophecy.)
Snapes insistence that Harry is merely being a product of James (in terms of being a troublemaker and thus, as someone to be noticed).
Snape's curious, intelligent observations of Harry when he first spoke parseltongue. (I'm thinking at this moment Snape is beginning to have self-doubts.)
Snape's curious, troubled observations of Harry after the graveyard scene in GoF.
Snape's being quite uneasy while trying to teach Harry Occlumency (I'm thinking this especially seemed to be something easily interpreted as coming right out of the prophecy).
Snape's final anger with Dumbledore, over Harry's fate, when the real consequences for Dumbledore's believing in the prophecy came to light.
Hope I can argue these things well. But if this is so, it would shed a much different light on Snapes overall reactions towards Harry....
Soul Search - Jul 29, 2008 6:42 pm (#54 of 2988)
tandaradei,
Interesting ideas. Might be a couple ways of looking at the question:
Snape didn't believe the prophecy, at all. Or even, Snape didn't believe in any prophecies. We don't have any wizarding history that supports prophecies. All we really have is that Cassandra Trelawney was a "celebrated" seer, but nothing that she prophesized. Even Sibil Trelawney didn't really believe in herself, or maybe even in prophecies.
Snape didn't believe/didn't want to believe that Harry was the chosen one.
PeskyPixie - Jul 30, 2008 11:54 am (#55 of 2988)
You raise a very interesting point, tandaradei. I need to think on it a bit more.
wynnleaf - Jul 30, 2008 1:28 pm (#56 of 2988)
Edited Jul 30, 2008 2:30 pm
tandarade,
Interesting ideas and worth considering. I've often thought that it didn't seem very Snapish to put much faith in a prophecy. I have to disagree with one of your points however, and one that several posters have mentioned repeatedly lately.
Snape only once seriously suggested Harry be expelled and took any steps in that direction, and that's when he directly mentioned it in front of Dumbledore over Harry and Ron flying the car up to Hogwarts.
Snape mentioned in COS that if he found out who it was that intentionally caused an explosion in his classroom, thereby injurying several students, he'd try to have them expelled -- and rightly so in my opinion. Still, it was mainly just a threat, since he doesn't go to much trouble to find out who made the explosion and he probably could have found out if he'd tried hard enough. For instance, he is willing to go to much further lengths to discover where Harry learned about Sectumsempra.
I think he mentions expulsion to Harry one other time in the first book. But remember that Snape often makes over the top threats, like to poison Trevor or a student and so on. Obviously he doesn't truly mean these things or his history as a teacher would be littered with dead students and their pets. Snape uses over the top threats and expulsion is one.
The only time he ever says it and means it is at the beginning of COS.
Now some will point to the end of POA. But that is not a suggestion for expulsion, rather a suggestion that Harry and the others be suspended, which many of you will recall is by no means the same thing. It's a brief period where a student is punished by being forced to miss classes without the opportunity to make up the work. Often it's between 1 day to a week, and for severe cases (in real life) more than a week.
Snape mentions suspension one other time as well, as a threat.
But after the end of GOF, Snape never threatens to expell Harry and certainly never seriously attempts it.
In fact, after the Sectumsempra episode, an action that McGonagall says might have merited expulsion, Snape doesn't even suggest it.
So no, Snape does not actually try to get Harry expelled other than one time at the start of Harry's second year.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 30, 2008 6:11 pm (#57 of 2988)
As I reread Wynnleaf's and Tandarade's posts there are a couple of things I want to comment on.
It makes alot of sense that Snape does not want to believe that the Prophecy he has overheard will come true. Maybe it's guilt that makes him take this stand and he wants to believe that Harry is mediocre. I like how Tandarade shows Snape's doubt increase as the series progresses.
Like Wynnleaf I don't think Snape wants to expel Harry. Even if Harry were expelled, it wouldn't prove that Harry was not Voldermort's equal--just that he did some major law breaking.
But it does seem as tho Snape is treating young Harry the way he would if it were James and I believe that Snape wished that James were expelled. I think all of the times when Snape goes over the top he is confusing Harry with his father but at some point (is it when he looks into Harry's eye to do legilimency does he see Lily) he stops and doesn't take that final action.
tandaradei - Jul 30, 2008 7:41 pm (#58 of 2988)
Edited Jul 30, 2008 8:43 pm
One nice thing about chat forums is that it grounds one back into the story's "reality."
Wynn & all, I am beginning to think I put Snape's & the Ministry's occasional attempts to expell Harry into one boat, or hat; hehe. I maybe really just remembered that throughout the series, it seemed like Harry often lived in fear of expulsion ... but that there really were many different reasons.
Nonetheless, Snape did want this early on, I will try to argue. Later on, maybe his "punishment" desires were really curtailed ... and could that be because he was beginning to think the prophecy might be the Real McCoy, and thus that Snape must "fall in line" with DD's wishes for Harry?
Locally I've received a fair amount of resistence over this idea of Snape not being fond of the Prophecy & its apparent influence over Dumbledore. Well, as I go through the Read-along, I'll hopefully be able to tease out more nuances on this idea (to hopefully strengthen my argument ... hey, who am I kidding, I'm no scientist; I want to win with my idea, hehe.)
mona amon - Jul 31, 2008 8:32 am (#59 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 9:44 am
Dumbledore was a believer; and Snape was a disbeliever, IMO. (Tandaradei)
I see it almost the opposite way. Dumbledore never felt that the Prophecy had to be fulfilled, or was definitely going to be fulfilled. There are quite a few quotes from HBP to prove this. Here are two-
"You are setting too much store by the prophecy"
'Got to?' said Dumbledore.'of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried!" HBP Chapter 23.
I feel that the reason he did not try to kill Voldemort in the MoM was not because he was saving him up for the Chosen One but because he knew that Voldemort had made Horcruxes and he wanted them destroyed first. If he 'killed' Voldemort at that time, he would once again have become Vapomort- a dormant evil force, invisible, impalpable and indestructable, waiting for an opportunity to be resurrected once again.
As for Snape, he seemed to believe that part of the prophecy that he had heard, that someone with the power to destroy the Dark Lord would be born at the end of the seventh month, because he rushes off to his master to warn him. Dumbledore never tells him the rest of the Prophecy. "There are only two people in the whole world who know the full contents of the Prophecy made about you and Lord Voldemort, and they are both standing in this smelly, spidery broom shed." This was said by DD to Harry early in HBP, and there's no reason to suppose he changed his mind later and let Snape in on the secret.
Even if Snape believed in the prophecy, which I think he did, he need not have thought that Harry was talented or exceptional. He may have thought that this mediocre trouble maker was the Chosen One, but only because the prophecy said so, not because there was anything special about him.
ETA: the very fact that Harry was the only one to ever survive the AK must have convinced Snape that he really was the Chosen One. Did Snape ever realise that part of the credit for Harry's survival was due to him? He was so focused on Dark Magic that I wonder if he knew about all the luvvy duvvy magic that Dumbledore understood so well!
Quinn Crockett - Jul 31, 2008 11:09 am (#60 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 12:10 pm
I would say the fact that Snape ran straight to Voldemort with what he'd heard is a pretty strong indication that, at least at that point, he believed in the Prophecy. He may have come to recant that opinion over the years, however.
But I agree with Mona. Even if Snape did believe the prophecy, it never apparently influenced his opinion of Harry - except perhaps in that he was even more disappointed than he might have been otherwise that "the chosen one" was (in Snape's eyes) the re-incarnation of his arch-rival.
Soul Search - Jul 31, 2008 1:12 pm (#61 of 2988)
Harry's surviving Voldemort's AK was unique. Even Fake-Moody makes a point of it in GoF. The next day the wizarding world raised their glasses to Harry Potter for defeating the Dark Lord. Voldemort was gone.
So, why wasn't Godric's Hollow the fulfillment of the prophecy? Harry even bore a mark made by the Dark Lord.
Snape could well have believed the prophecy had been fulfilled and Harry was no longer of any importance.
Solitaire - Jul 31, 2008 4:03 pm (#62 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 5:04 pm
why wasn't Godric's Hollow the fulfillment of the prophecy?
Snape may have thought it was the fulfillment. In "The Prince's Tale," when Dumbledore asks him to make sure Lily did not die in vain by helping to protect her son, Snape says, "He does not need protection. The Dark Lord has gone ..." That fact alone would seem to indicate that he did not know about the Horcruxes at that time
Still, when Dumbledore responds, "The Dark Lord will return, and Harry Potter will be in terrible danger when he does," Snape did not demur or disagree. Does this mean he knows something? I wonder how long it took before Dumbledore told him about the Horcruxes and how many he suspected there were. He obviously must have told him about the ring Horcrux, but did he tell Snape about the others yet? Or did Snape already know about them?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 31, 2008 4:28 pm (#63 of 2988)
Solitaire,
While I think it would be very believable for DD to have told Snape about the horcruxes, and I also think he should have told Snape about them, I'm not very sure that JKR means us to think DD actually gave Snape that info.
My impression in DH was that DD had not told Snape that the ring was a horcrux, or that the diary was a horcrux. Still, I would think an expert in the Dark Arts (surely Snape knows more than Slughorn), would know about horcruxes and start to suspect.
Good point about Snape thinking at first that LV was gone for good.
Someone mentioned that Snape must have believed the prophecy or he wouldn't take it to LV in the first place. I don't think that's evidence for Snape believing it. As a loyal DE, he would have taken Trelawney's prophecy to LV and let LV to the deciding as to whether or not it was useful information.
Solitaire - Jul 31, 2008 5:09 pm (#64 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 6:10 pm
Don't you think DD would have had to tell Snape about the ring, given the nature of the curse? I should think that kind of evil curse on an object would be much worse than an "ordinary" evil curse. Also, it does seem to me that when he tells Snape about Nagaini and about the fragment of Voldemort that was blasted into Harry, he is kind of "letting the cat out of the bag." I mean, Snape surely must be able to draw a few conclusions, even if DD hasn't spelled it out clearly.
tandaradei - Jul 31, 2008 5:31 pm (#65 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 6:32 pm
The arguments between you Snape experts are quite interesting. Glad I hopefully added another dimension.
I guess my real argument is that Jo privately thought out more of her Snape/DD relationship (including IMO, prophecy arguments) than one might assume from the direct comments of actual canon. The biggest arguments against their arguing seems to me to be DD's secretive nature and Snapes tacitern nature ... and how the baggage each of them carried might have interfered with a true, on-the-spot throwing out of various ideas,or feeling each other out, as to everything (like kids do in dormitories in college).
I do feel Snape's apparent lack of curiousity as to the full nature of the ring and why Dumbledore was after it, might indeed hint that such things had been discussed already, actually. I mean, even horcruxes, as with the Deathly Hallows.
I was under the impression that DD removed all true horcrux-literature, maybe even while Tom Riddle was developing his insane ideas. This was well before Snape's time if this is so. Maybe Snape could have remained in the dark as to all that, but I'm rather doubtful.
Solitaire - Jul 31, 2008 5:40 pm (#66 of 2988)
I doubt Snape would have been told about the Hallows. Horcruxes, maybe. Hallows? I'm not so sure ...
tandaradei - Jul 31, 2008 5:44 pm (#67 of 2988)
Erm, how would DD have explained his need for finding that ring, in his fight against Voldemort? I'm about flipping a coin as to what reason Dumbledore might give.
Solitaire - Jul 31, 2008 5:49 pm (#68 of 2988)
That is why I feel he might confide that it was a Horcrux ... but not a Hallow. He might have felt that would be too tempting.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 31, 2008 7:28 pm (#69 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 8:30 pm
I don't think Dumbledore did tell Snape about the Horcruxes. Snape is angry that Dumbledore is revealing that information to Harry (though Snape does not know it, specifically) and not to him.
Someone mentioned that Snape must have believed the prophecy or he wouldn't take it to LV in the first place. I don't think that's evidence for Snape believing it. As a loyal DE, he would have taken Trelawney's prophecy to LV and let LV to the deciding as to whether or not it was useful information. - Wynnleaf
Yeah, that was me. I'm not sure I understand what being "a loyal death eater" have to do with it. If Snape didn't believe in prophecies, why would he even think it worth mentioning? Why would he think Voldemort would consider such a thing "information"? I mean, he was supposed to be going there to try to get a job. Why would it even occur to him to bring up the prophecy if he didn't think the "information" was of any value?
mona amon - Jul 31, 2008 7:36 pm (#70 of 2988)
how would DD have explained his need for finding that ring, in his fight against Voldemort?
But Dumbledore never explains, if he does not want to. He has snubbed both Snape and Harry when they ask inconvenient questions.
Someone mentioned that Snape must have believed the prophecy or he wouldn't take it to LV in the first place. I don't think that's evidence for Snape believing it. As a loyal DE, he would have taken Trelawney's prophecy to LV and let LV to the deciding as to whether or not it was useful information. (Wynnleaf)
But still, if he thought it was worth taking to Voldemort for his consideration, it means he did not think it was pure drivel. And after Godric's Hollow he must have taken it quite seriously.
Harry even bore a mark made by the Dark Lord.
Snape could well have believed the prophecy had been fulfilled and Harry was no longer of any importance. (Soul Search)
But Snape knew only the first line of of the prophecy, The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... Only Dumbledore, and later Harry, knew about 'the Dark Lord would mark him' part.
tandaradei - Jul 31, 2008 8:39 pm (#71 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 9:44 pm
OK, here’s Tandy’s revised theory of the Snape/Dumbledore dialogue through the years:
Dumbledore put a tight reign on Snape, regarding the Prophecy. Dumbledore informed Snape that Voldemort probably would be coming back and that the prophecy might be a "battleground," even like it had been before; but that Snape was not to know its full contents. After all, Snape might be too close to Voldemort in the future, where such knowledge might leak. When DD told Harry, in effect, that Snape didn’t know everything, I believe DD, mainly because I believe DD is not an outright liar (though he can be secretive). Perhaps Snape let it be, because of guilt?
I do think Snape, from the prophecy, knew Voldemort’s downfall was supposed to come from such as Neville and Harry; and I think Snape believed, even at their birth, that such were insufficient, regardless of the Prophecy. In this way, at least, I believe Snape didn’t believe in the prophecy with the same ardor as Dumbledore. It may well be, that Snape reasoned that Neville and Harry at the very least required a baptism-by-fire, military, and “hard knocks” type training folks get from the Marines and such. The basic idea is: “If you dare to fight and beat Voldemort you’ll have to go through me (fight and beat me first)”; and I believe Snape did not believe these two were getting to the point that their talents and such would be sufficient. I do think things like Harry's Parselmouth & managing to survive the Voldemort Party (GoF) were interesting signs that Harry did have unexpected talents.
Dumbledore talked free and easy with Snape, regarding horcruxes. I cannot see Snape healing Dumbledore because of the ring, or working as he did to get the sword to Harry in DH, and doing so essentially with few questions, without his being quite a bit in the know about everything. Too, I believe Dumbledore would have little worry about getting Snape fully educated as to the way of horcruxes; because unlike the Hallows, I rather think Snape didn’t want to live forever anymore (his grief over Lily). I do think DD began to withhold much about his work on horcruxes in the HBP year, and Snape fully and righteously resented that sudden stoppage.
Dumbledore nonetheless remained secretive with all, including Snape, as regarding the Big Picture. Here, its like how Dumbledore intended to protect the Philosopher’s Stone: have all his staff work freely within their areas, but remain ignorant of others … with the idea that no one except himself, knowing the Big Picture, would be able to get to the Stone. Here I just want to say its interesting how DD’s perfect schemes always had a “flaw.” (I guess that’s another beginning/ending comparison!)
Quinn Crockett - Jul 31, 2008 9:33 pm (#72 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 10:37 pm
Dumbledore talked free and easy with Snape, regarding horcruxes. - I just don't see this. It would have been far too risky to have anyone that close to Voldemort, a master Legilimens, knowing that anyone else knew about his Horcrux fetish.
As I recall, Snape does ask about the ring and Dumbledore answers only something vague like, "Yes, I was foolish to do so..." I think Snape had become comfortable in his "don't ask, don't tell" relationship with Dumbledore, partly because it worked both ways. But if not "comfortable" certainly Snape would have come to expect that Dumbledore could be evasive in his (non) answers and that asking questions didn't always get him anywhere.
Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 3:45 am (#73 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 4:48 am
Dumbledore nonetheless remained secretive with all, including Snape, as regarding the Big Picture.
I'm with Quinn on this one. In "The Prince's Tale," Dumbledore tells Snape that he doesn't like putting all his secrets into one basket, "particularly not a basket that spends so much time dangling on the arm of Lord Voldemort." Interesting, isn't it, that Dumbledore is so very like Voldemort in this respect ... neither one likes to have any single person know everything about his plans.
Solitaire
megfox* - Aug 1, 2008 5:22 am (#74 of 2988)
I don't have my books with me (last day of Summer School - Yay!) but didn't Snape say something to Dumbledore about "knowing that ring would have a powerful curse on it"? How would he have deduced that if he didn't know it was a Horcrux? Can someone with the books check this out?
wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2008 5:35 am (#75 of 2988)
megfox, excellent point. Snape seems to think that DD should have realized in the first place that there was a curse on the ring. Why would he think that if he only thought it some random ring that happened to have been cursed -- like, for instance, the cursed necklace that hurt Katie Bell? So it does look like Snape knew that the ring would likely have been cursed and assumes that DD would think the same thing. That does make it sound like Snape knew about the horcruxes.
Edited Jul 29, 2008 11:05 am
"We only ever see Lockhart using Peskipixie Pesternomi which didn't work ... " -mona
... but it did get me a cool name!
And yeah, Quinn, Harry learns Expelliarmus from Snape.
Muffliato also comes in handy for them. LOL, the funniest were Harry's Sectumsempras against the Inferi!
It's funny how Harry gathers a lot of knowledge from Snape (Hermione even learns of Polyjuice Potion and the book the recipe can be found in from Snape), but learns nothing when taught by Snape. Clearly, Snape has a lot to offer, but his personal issues get in the way of becoming a great teacher (for all students).
EDIT: BTW, mona, I find the Expelliarmus to be symbolic as well. Harry almost sounds like a proud student of Snape's when he says, "Shouldn't have let Professor Snape teach us that one." It seems so out of character (for the relationship Harry and Snape share) that it is very memorable.
Madam Pince - Jul 29, 2008 11:14 am (#52 of 2988)
Edited Jul 29, 2008 12:15 pm
Really? What, specifically did Harry learn from Snape that he actually used in any of the situations he found himself in, particularly the final confrontation?
I did use the word "training," but actually I wasn't thinking only of what Harry learned from Snape, because Harry got other assistance from Snape besides learning. Snape delivered the sword of Gryffindor to Harry when they were camping in the forest. Snape released the "crucio" curse that Amycus (?I think?) put on Harry during the chase out of Hogwarts following Dumbledore's death, which may have been a precursor to Amycus killing him (Snape yelled something like "No! Remember our orders! He belongs only to the Dark Lord!") Snape ran interference during the "Seven Potters Chase," thus probably saving several lives. I'm sure there are more but these are just off the top of my head.
And as to learning from Snape, as people have pointed out, Harry learned Expelliarmus from Snape, not Lockhart. And I would definitely say that Harry learned occlumency/legilimency from Snape. I will have to go back and look to see when/if Harry successfully used those skills because I can't remember off the top of my head.
He learned about bezoars from Snape, which saved Ron's life, and if he hadn't had Ron to help him, who knows if he'd have been able to succeed in eliminating all the horcruxes or not, so that was help in the "final confrontation." (I wasn't really thinking of just the "final" though...)
Harry was able to get the horcrux information from Slughorn because of the fact that he used the Felix Felicis, which he won in class because of the help he got from The Half-Blood Prince's textbook, which was Snape helping him.
He learned about the importance of non-verbal magic from Snape ("Blocked and blocked again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed!")
He learned wand lore from Ollivander, but he learned the crucial fact that Snape did not ever defeat Dumbledore (because they planned DD's death together) from Snape's final memories. This is what enabled Harry to approach Voldemort so confidently in their final confrontation -- Harry knew Voldemort was not the true master of the Elder Wand because of Snape's disclosures to him. This enabled Harry to have a successful plan for Lord Voldemort's final defeat.
I guess I am also thinking about the intangible "spine stiffening" that I mentioned earlier, too. Snape taught Harry to never give in. Harry's hatred of Snape gave him the spine to have an "I'll show you -- I won't give up!" sort of attitude towards everything, which in my mind was an invaluable asset.
Sorry this is a quick response but I have to rush off -- these are just from the top of my head. Anyway, I think there are several instances...
tandaradei - Jul 29, 2008 4:02 pm (#53 of 2988)
Edited Jul 29, 2008 5:21 pm
I've noticed you folks haven't discussed a theme that I think relevant, that may in some ways touch on all of this. The theme is "Did Snape and Dumbledore argue over the prophecy?" I think much can be explained in that.
Yes, they did, IMO.
Dumbledore was a believer; and Snape was a disbeliever, IMO.
And I think the reason for Snape's "disbelief" was guilt. Even if the prophecy was just a nonevent, it nonetheless got Lily killed. To imply it was critical would be to exacerbate his involvement in it. If the prophecy was actually much, much more, this knowledge would hurt, in Snape's having to live with it. (Relevant parts are in red in the prophecy below.)
One could argue that Snape wanted to expell Harry to make up for James never being expelled, (which hasn't been argued much here either); but that's not what I think either. IMO Dumbledore totally believed in the prophecy, and DD's actions confirm this ... from his not trying to kill Voldemort at the Ministry of Magic, to even how he refused to try to remove Harry's scar in the first chapter of the series. Snape however, IMO, wanted to diminish the importance of the prophecy because the prophecy is what got Lilly killed. I'll argue points for Snape's resisting DD's argument after I give the actual prophecy, which I'll do here for reference:
...[cut]...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies .....[cut]...
OP
OK, while I go through the Read-a-long, I'll try to cull out the reasons, but here are some reasons off the top of my head, why Snape wanted to disbelieve both the prophecy and Harry's being "The One"; and why Snape reacted to Harry in certain ways at certain times ... but IMO many times more because of the Prophecy than personal feelings about Harry. Here are some thing's I'll try to argue:
Snape's insistence that Harry was mediocre, which is usually defined as "ordinary," and one NOT distinguished out of a crowd ... which would be opposite to that given in the prophecy.
Snape's true desire, IMO, that Harry be expelled, thus strengthening his case that Harry was not the Chosen One of the prophecy. (Being expelled would IMO reduce his "white knight" status, as given in the prophecy.)
Snapes insistence that Harry is merely being a product of James (in terms of being a troublemaker and thus, as someone to be noticed).
Snape's curious, intelligent observations of Harry when he first spoke parseltongue. (I'm thinking at this moment Snape is beginning to have self-doubts.)
Snape's curious, troubled observations of Harry after the graveyard scene in GoF.
Snape's being quite uneasy while trying to teach Harry Occlumency (I'm thinking this especially seemed to be something easily interpreted as coming right out of the prophecy).
Snape's final anger with Dumbledore, over Harry's fate, when the real consequences for Dumbledore's believing in the prophecy came to light.
Hope I can argue these things well. But if this is so, it would shed a much different light on Snapes overall reactions towards Harry....
Soul Search - Jul 29, 2008 6:42 pm (#54 of 2988)
tandaradei,
Interesting ideas. Might be a couple ways of looking at the question:
Snape didn't believe the prophecy, at all. Or even, Snape didn't believe in any prophecies. We don't have any wizarding history that supports prophecies. All we really have is that Cassandra Trelawney was a "celebrated" seer, but nothing that she prophesized. Even Sibil Trelawney didn't really believe in herself, or maybe even in prophecies.
Snape didn't believe/didn't want to believe that Harry was the chosen one.
PeskyPixie - Jul 30, 2008 11:54 am (#55 of 2988)
You raise a very interesting point, tandaradei. I need to think on it a bit more.
wynnleaf - Jul 30, 2008 1:28 pm (#56 of 2988)
Edited Jul 30, 2008 2:30 pm
tandarade,
Interesting ideas and worth considering. I've often thought that it didn't seem very Snapish to put much faith in a prophecy. I have to disagree with one of your points however, and one that several posters have mentioned repeatedly lately.
Snape only once seriously suggested Harry be expelled and took any steps in that direction, and that's when he directly mentioned it in front of Dumbledore over Harry and Ron flying the car up to Hogwarts.
Snape mentioned in COS that if he found out who it was that intentionally caused an explosion in his classroom, thereby injurying several students, he'd try to have them expelled -- and rightly so in my opinion. Still, it was mainly just a threat, since he doesn't go to much trouble to find out who made the explosion and he probably could have found out if he'd tried hard enough. For instance, he is willing to go to much further lengths to discover where Harry learned about Sectumsempra.
I think he mentions expulsion to Harry one other time in the first book. But remember that Snape often makes over the top threats, like to poison Trevor or a student and so on. Obviously he doesn't truly mean these things or his history as a teacher would be littered with dead students and their pets. Snape uses over the top threats and expulsion is one.
The only time he ever says it and means it is at the beginning of COS.
Now some will point to the end of POA. But that is not a suggestion for expulsion, rather a suggestion that Harry and the others be suspended, which many of you will recall is by no means the same thing. It's a brief period where a student is punished by being forced to miss classes without the opportunity to make up the work. Often it's between 1 day to a week, and for severe cases (in real life) more than a week.
Snape mentions suspension one other time as well, as a threat.
But after the end of GOF, Snape never threatens to expell Harry and certainly never seriously attempts it.
In fact, after the Sectumsempra episode, an action that McGonagall says might have merited expulsion, Snape doesn't even suggest it.
So no, Snape does not actually try to get Harry expelled other than one time at the start of Harry's second year.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 30, 2008 6:11 pm (#57 of 2988)
As I reread Wynnleaf's and Tandarade's posts there are a couple of things I want to comment on.
It makes alot of sense that Snape does not want to believe that the Prophecy he has overheard will come true. Maybe it's guilt that makes him take this stand and he wants to believe that Harry is mediocre. I like how Tandarade shows Snape's doubt increase as the series progresses.
Like Wynnleaf I don't think Snape wants to expel Harry. Even if Harry were expelled, it wouldn't prove that Harry was not Voldermort's equal--just that he did some major law breaking.
But it does seem as tho Snape is treating young Harry the way he would if it were James and I believe that Snape wished that James were expelled. I think all of the times when Snape goes over the top he is confusing Harry with his father but at some point (is it when he looks into Harry's eye to do legilimency does he see Lily) he stops and doesn't take that final action.
tandaradei - Jul 30, 2008 7:41 pm (#58 of 2988)
Edited Jul 30, 2008 8:43 pm
One nice thing about chat forums is that it grounds one back into the story's "reality."
Wynn & all, I am beginning to think I put Snape's & the Ministry's occasional attempts to expell Harry into one boat, or hat; hehe. I maybe really just remembered that throughout the series, it seemed like Harry often lived in fear of expulsion ... but that there really were many different reasons.
Nonetheless, Snape did want this early on, I will try to argue. Later on, maybe his "punishment" desires were really curtailed ... and could that be because he was beginning to think the prophecy might be the Real McCoy, and thus that Snape must "fall in line" with DD's wishes for Harry?
Locally I've received a fair amount of resistence over this idea of Snape not being fond of the Prophecy & its apparent influence over Dumbledore. Well, as I go through the Read-along, I'll hopefully be able to tease out more nuances on this idea (to hopefully strengthen my argument ... hey, who am I kidding, I'm no scientist; I want to win with my idea, hehe.)
mona amon - Jul 31, 2008 8:32 am (#59 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 9:44 am
Dumbledore was a believer; and Snape was a disbeliever, IMO. (Tandaradei)
I see it almost the opposite way. Dumbledore never felt that the Prophecy had to be fulfilled, or was definitely going to be fulfilled. There are quite a few quotes from HBP to prove this. Here are two-
"You are setting too much store by the prophecy"
'Got to?' said Dumbledore.'of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried!" HBP Chapter 23.
I feel that the reason he did not try to kill Voldemort in the MoM was not because he was saving him up for the Chosen One but because he knew that Voldemort had made Horcruxes and he wanted them destroyed first. If he 'killed' Voldemort at that time, he would once again have become Vapomort- a dormant evil force, invisible, impalpable and indestructable, waiting for an opportunity to be resurrected once again.
As for Snape, he seemed to believe that part of the prophecy that he had heard, that someone with the power to destroy the Dark Lord would be born at the end of the seventh month, because he rushes off to his master to warn him. Dumbledore never tells him the rest of the Prophecy. "There are only two people in the whole world who know the full contents of the Prophecy made about you and Lord Voldemort, and they are both standing in this smelly, spidery broom shed." This was said by DD to Harry early in HBP, and there's no reason to suppose he changed his mind later and let Snape in on the secret.
Even if Snape believed in the prophecy, which I think he did, he need not have thought that Harry was talented or exceptional. He may have thought that this mediocre trouble maker was the Chosen One, but only because the prophecy said so, not because there was anything special about him.
ETA: the very fact that Harry was the only one to ever survive the AK must have convinced Snape that he really was the Chosen One. Did Snape ever realise that part of the credit for Harry's survival was due to him? He was so focused on Dark Magic that I wonder if he knew about all the luvvy duvvy magic that Dumbledore understood so well!
Quinn Crockett - Jul 31, 2008 11:09 am (#60 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 12:10 pm
I would say the fact that Snape ran straight to Voldemort with what he'd heard is a pretty strong indication that, at least at that point, he believed in the Prophecy. He may have come to recant that opinion over the years, however.
But I agree with Mona. Even if Snape did believe the prophecy, it never apparently influenced his opinion of Harry - except perhaps in that he was even more disappointed than he might have been otherwise that "the chosen one" was (in Snape's eyes) the re-incarnation of his arch-rival.
Soul Search - Jul 31, 2008 1:12 pm (#61 of 2988)
Harry's surviving Voldemort's AK was unique. Even Fake-Moody makes a point of it in GoF. The next day the wizarding world raised their glasses to Harry Potter for defeating the Dark Lord. Voldemort was gone.
So, why wasn't Godric's Hollow the fulfillment of the prophecy? Harry even bore a mark made by the Dark Lord.
Snape could well have believed the prophecy had been fulfilled and Harry was no longer of any importance.
Solitaire - Jul 31, 2008 4:03 pm (#62 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 5:04 pm
why wasn't Godric's Hollow the fulfillment of the prophecy?
Snape may have thought it was the fulfillment. In "The Prince's Tale," when Dumbledore asks him to make sure Lily did not die in vain by helping to protect her son, Snape says, "He does not need protection. The Dark Lord has gone ..." That fact alone would seem to indicate that he did not know about the Horcruxes at that time
Still, when Dumbledore responds, "The Dark Lord will return, and Harry Potter will be in terrible danger when he does," Snape did not demur or disagree. Does this mean he knows something? I wonder how long it took before Dumbledore told him about the Horcruxes and how many he suspected there were. He obviously must have told him about the ring Horcrux, but did he tell Snape about the others yet? Or did Snape already know about them?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 31, 2008 4:28 pm (#63 of 2988)
Solitaire,
While I think it would be very believable for DD to have told Snape about the horcruxes, and I also think he should have told Snape about them, I'm not very sure that JKR means us to think DD actually gave Snape that info.
My impression in DH was that DD had not told Snape that the ring was a horcrux, or that the diary was a horcrux. Still, I would think an expert in the Dark Arts (surely Snape knows more than Slughorn), would know about horcruxes and start to suspect.
Good point about Snape thinking at first that LV was gone for good.
Someone mentioned that Snape must have believed the prophecy or he wouldn't take it to LV in the first place. I don't think that's evidence for Snape believing it. As a loyal DE, he would have taken Trelawney's prophecy to LV and let LV to the deciding as to whether or not it was useful information.
Solitaire - Jul 31, 2008 5:09 pm (#64 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 6:10 pm
Don't you think DD would have had to tell Snape about the ring, given the nature of the curse? I should think that kind of evil curse on an object would be much worse than an "ordinary" evil curse. Also, it does seem to me that when he tells Snape about Nagaini and about the fragment of Voldemort that was blasted into Harry, he is kind of "letting the cat out of the bag." I mean, Snape surely must be able to draw a few conclusions, even if DD hasn't spelled it out clearly.
tandaradei - Jul 31, 2008 5:31 pm (#65 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 6:32 pm
The arguments between you Snape experts are quite interesting. Glad I hopefully added another dimension.
I guess my real argument is that Jo privately thought out more of her Snape/DD relationship (including IMO, prophecy arguments) than one might assume from the direct comments of actual canon. The biggest arguments against their arguing seems to me to be DD's secretive nature and Snapes tacitern nature ... and how the baggage each of them carried might have interfered with a true, on-the-spot throwing out of various ideas,or feeling each other out, as to everything (like kids do in dormitories in college).
I do feel Snape's apparent lack of curiousity as to the full nature of the ring and why Dumbledore was after it, might indeed hint that such things had been discussed already, actually. I mean, even horcruxes, as with the Deathly Hallows.
I was under the impression that DD removed all true horcrux-literature, maybe even while Tom Riddle was developing his insane ideas. This was well before Snape's time if this is so. Maybe Snape could have remained in the dark as to all that, but I'm rather doubtful.
Solitaire - Jul 31, 2008 5:40 pm (#66 of 2988)
I doubt Snape would have been told about the Hallows. Horcruxes, maybe. Hallows? I'm not so sure ...
tandaradei - Jul 31, 2008 5:44 pm (#67 of 2988)
Erm, how would DD have explained his need for finding that ring, in his fight against Voldemort? I'm about flipping a coin as to what reason Dumbledore might give.
Solitaire - Jul 31, 2008 5:49 pm (#68 of 2988)
That is why I feel he might confide that it was a Horcrux ... but not a Hallow. He might have felt that would be too tempting.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 31, 2008 7:28 pm (#69 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 8:30 pm
I don't think Dumbledore did tell Snape about the Horcruxes. Snape is angry that Dumbledore is revealing that information to Harry (though Snape does not know it, specifically) and not to him.
Someone mentioned that Snape must have believed the prophecy or he wouldn't take it to LV in the first place. I don't think that's evidence for Snape believing it. As a loyal DE, he would have taken Trelawney's prophecy to LV and let LV to the deciding as to whether or not it was useful information. - Wynnleaf
Yeah, that was me. I'm not sure I understand what being "a loyal death eater" have to do with it. If Snape didn't believe in prophecies, why would he even think it worth mentioning? Why would he think Voldemort would consider such a thing "information"? I mean, he was supposed to be going there to try to get a job. Why would it even occur to him to bring up the prophecy if he didn't think the "information" was of any value?
mona amon - Jul 31, 2008 7:36 pm (#70 of 2988)
how would DD have explained his need for finding that ring, in his fight against Voldemort?
But Dumbledore never explains, if he does not want to. He has snubbed both Snape and Harry when they ask inconvenient questions.
Someone mentioned that Snape must have believed the prophecy or he wouldn't take it to LV in the first place. I don't think that's evidence for Snape believing it. As a loyal DE, he would have taken Trelawney's prophecy to LV and let LV to the deciding as to whether or not it was useful information. (Wynnleaf)
But still, if he thought it was worth taking to Voldemort for his consideration, it means he did not think it was pure drivel. And after Godric's Hollow he must have taken it quite seriously.
Harry even bore a mark made by the Dark Lord.
Snape could well have believed the prophecy had been fulfilled and Harry was no longer of any importance. (Soul Search)
But Snape knew only the first line of of the prophecy, The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... Only Dumbledore, and later Harry, knew about 'the Dark Lord would mark him' part.
tandaradei - Jul 31, 2008 8:39 pm (#71 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 9:44 pm
OK, here’s Tandy’s revised theory of the Snape/Dumbledore dialogue through the years:
Dumbledore put a tight reign on Snape, regarding the Prophecy. Dumbledore informed Snape that Voldemort probably would be coming back and that the prophecy might be a "battleground," even like it had been before; but that Snape was not to know its full contents. After all, Snape might be too close to Voldemort in the future, where such knowledge might leak. When DD told Harry, in effect, that Snape didn’t know everything, I believe DD, mainly because I believe DD is not an outright liar (though he can be secretive). Perhaps Snape let it be, because of guilt?
I do think Snape, from the prophecy, knew Voldemort’s downfall was supposed to come from such as Neville and Harry; and I think Snape believed, even at their birth, that such were insufficient, regardless of the Prophecy. In this way, at least, I believe Snape didn’t believe in the prophecy with the same ardor as Dumbledore. It may well be, that Snape reasoned that Neville and Harry at the very least required a baptism-by-fire, military, and “hard knocks” type training folks get from the Marines and such. The basic idea is: “If you dare to fight and beat Voldemort you’ll have to go through me (fight and beat me first)”; and I believe Snape did not believe these two were getting to the point that their talents and such would be sufficient. I do think things like Harry's Parselmouth & managing to survive the Voldemort Party (GoF) were interesting signs that Harry did have unexpected talents.
Dumbledore talked free and easy with Snape, regarding horcruxes. I cannot see Snape healing Dumbledore because of the ring, or working as he did to get the sword to Harry in DH, and doing so essentially with few questions, without his being quite a bit in the know about everything. Too, I believe Dumbledore would have little worry about getting Snape fully educated as to the way of horcruxes; because unlike the Hallows, I rather think Snape didn’t want to live forever anymore (his grief over Lily). I do think DD began to withhold much about his work on horcruxes in the HBP year, and Snape fully and righteously resented that sudden stoppage.
Dumbledore nonetheless remained secretive with all, including Snape, as regarding the Big Picture. Here, its like how Dumbledore intended to protect the Philosopher’s Stone: have all his staff work freely within their areas, but remain ignorant of others … with the idea that no one except himself, knowing the Big Picture, would be able to get to the Stone. Here I just want to say its interesting how DD’s perfect schemes always had a “flaw.” (I guess that’s another beginning/ending comparison!)
Quinn Crockett - Jul 31, 2008 9:33 pm (#72 of 2988)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 10:37 pm
Dumbledore talked free and easy with Snape, regarding horcruxes. - I just don't see this. It would have been far too risky to have anyone that close to Voldemort, a master Legilimens, knowing that anyone else knew about his Horcrux fetish.
As I recall, Snape does ask about the ring and Dumbledore answers only something vague like, "Yes, I was foolish to do so..." I think Snape had become comfortable in his "don't ask, don't tell" relationship with Dumbledore, partly because it worked both ways. But if not "comfortable" certainly Snape would have come to expect that Dumbledore could be evasive in his (non) answers and that asking questions didn't always get him anywhere.
Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 3:45 am (#73 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 4:48 am
Dumbledore nonetheless remained secretive with all, including Snape, as regarding the Big Picture.
I'm with Quinn on this one. In "The Prince's Tale," Dumbledore tells Snape that he doesn't like putting all his secrets into one basket, "particularly not a basket that spends so much time dangling on the arm of Lord Voldemort." Interesting, isn't it, that Dumbledore is so very like Voldemort in this respect ... neither one likes to have any single person know everything about his plans.
Solitaire
megfox* - Aug 1, 2008 5:22 am (#74 of 2988)
I don't have my books with me (last day of Summer School - Yay!) but didn't Snape say something to Dumbledore about "knowing that ring would have a powerful curse on it"? How would he have deduced that if he didn't know it was a Horcrux? Can someone with the books check this out?
wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2008 5:35 am (#75 of 2988)
megfox, excellent point. Snape seems to think that DD should have realized in the first place that there was a curse on the ring. Why would he think that if he only thought it some random ring that happened to have been cursed -- like, for instance, the cursed necklace that hurt Katie Bell? So it does look like Snape knew that the ring would likely have been cursed and assumes that DD would think the same thing. That does make it sound like Snape knew about the horcruxes.
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Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 8:16 am (#76 of 2988)
Since Snape "treated" DD's injury from the ring, I can't help thinking he at least had to know about this particular Horcrux--that it was a Horcrux--in order to help Dumbledore. Whether he knew that there were more of them--and how many or what DD suspected they were--is debatable, I think, at least from a time standpoint. I think he may have received that final piece of information at the time DD told him about Nagini ... and about Harry.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2008 8:53 am (#77 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 9:54 am
Absolutely Solitaire.
So does everyone agree? Snape probably knew about the horcruxes, at least that there were some, and by the time DD told him about Nagini, he knew there were more than one.
By the way, I didn't think it likely that DD would assume that Hermione would accio those books on Dark Arts from his desk. Since DD seemed to think Snape would become Headmaster or at least have access to his office, I tend to think DD left all those books on his desk for Snape's use.
So did Snape know about any of the Hallows? That one is tougher, in my opinion. That last confrontation with LV, I can't tell whether Snape had figured it out that DD's wand was the Elder Wand or not. And he did have the evidence of LV trying to sort out why wands were giving problems. I suppose he could have been told by DD's portrait, especially if DD's portrait figured out, perhaps from Snape's reports of LV's wand research, that LV was after the Elder Wand.
mona amon - Aug 1, 2008 8:57 am (#78 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 10:02 am
Why should Snape have known that it was a Horcrux? Dumbledore gets injured because of the protective curse that Voldemort puts on it, not because it's a Horcrux.
This is how I imagine the scene- Dumbledore staggers into his study, gravely injured. He removes the ring and stabs it with Gryfindor's Sword, destroying the Horcrux. Then he sends for Snape. So the ring is no longer cursed, and no longer a Horcrux by the time Snape gets there. He shows Snape his injured hand and says "Look what that ring did to me!" and loses consciousness. Snape examines Dumbledore, and expert that he is in such matters, can recognise a powerful Dark curse when he sees one. So he concludes that the ring carried a powerful curse, and as soon as Dumbledore regains consciousness, rebukes him for putting it on, for surely a wizard of Dumbledore's calibre would also be able to recognise a cursed object when he sees one.
He may have wondered why the ring was cursed and what Dumbledore was doing with it, but there's nothing there to make him conclude that it was a Horcrux.
EDIT: Cross Posted with Wynnleaf. I think there is some evidence to show that Dumbledore did not tell Snape about the Horcruxes. I'll try and search for it tomorrow. Now I'm off to bed!
Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 9:14 am (#79 of 2988)
I think Snape may have needed to know what kind of curse was on that ring in order to provide an "antidote" of sorts to the spell. JM2K ...
Anna L. Black - Aug 1, 2008 10:00 am (#80 of 2988)
Yes, but the fact that the ring was a horcrux doesn't determine what the curse on it should be... So Snape could have treated DD without knowing about the horcrux.
mona, I see it the same way you do
Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 10:05 am (#81 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 11:06 am
Isn't there a special spell used to make a Horcrux? I'm thinking it might have been necessary for Snape to know that this was the sort of spell used on the ring.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 1, 2008 10:07 am (#82 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 11:45 am
So does everyone agree? Snape probably knew about the horcruxes, at least that there were some, and by the time DD told him about Nagini, he knew there were more than one. - Wynnleaf
Nope. I don't.
Consider the following:
"Why," said Snape, without preamble, "why did you put on that ring? It carries a curse, surely you realized that. Why even touch it?"
Marvolo Gaunts's ring lay on the desk before Dumbledore. It was cracked; the sword of Gryffindor lay beside it.
Dumbledore grimaced.
"I... was a fool. Sorely tempted..."
"Tempted by what?"
Dumbledore did not answer. [So it seems Snape knows nothing of the Hallows either].
"It is a miracle you managed to return here!" Snape sounded furious. "That ring carried a curse of extraordinary power, to contain it is all we can hope for; I have trapped the curse in one hand for the time being - " ....... "If you had only summoned me a little earlier, I might have been able to do more, buy you more time!" said Snape furiously.
He looked down at the broken ring and the sword. "Did you think that breaking the ring would break the curse?"
"Something like that ... I was delirious, no doubt..." said Dumbledore. - DH ch. 33
Another memory walk-and-talk:
(I'm only citing the pertinent elements of the conversation)
"What are you doing with Potter, all these evenings you are closeted together?" Snape asked abruptly. ....
.... "I spend time with Harry because I have things to discuss with him, information I must give him before it is too late." .....
....."And why may I not have the same information?"
"I prefer not to put all of my secrets in one basket, particularly not a basket that spends so much time dangling on the arm of Lord Voldemort." ....
"Yet you confide much more in a boy who is incapable of Occlumency, whose magic is mediocre, and who has a direct connection into the Dark Lord's mind!"
"Voldemort fears that connection," said Dumbledore. "Not so long ago he had one small taste of what truly sharing Harry's mind means to him. It was pain such as he has never experienced. He will not try to possess Harry again, I am sure of it. Not in that way."
"I don't understand."
"Lord Voldemort's soul, maimed as it is, cannot bear close contact with a soul like Harry's. Like a tongue on frozen steel, like flesh in flame - "
"Souls? We were talking of minds!"
"In the case of Harry and Lord Voldemort, to speak of one is to speak of the other." - ibid.
So, Snape still doesn't get it about the Horcruxes. It's not until Dumbledore reveals that Harry must think he has to die, that Dumbledore mentions even a single one, though he never uses the actual term.
"Tell [Harry] that on the night Lord Voldemort tried to kill him, when Lily cast her own life between them as a shield, the Killing Curse rebounded upon Lord Voldemort, and a fragment of Voldemort's soul was blasted apart from the whole, and latched itself onto the only living soul left in that collapsing building. Part of Lord Voldemort's soul lives inside Harry, and it is that which gives him the power of speech with snakes, and a connection with Lord Voldemort's mind that he has never understood. And while that fragment of soul, unmissed by Lord Voldemort, remains attached to and protected by Harry, Lord Voldemort cannot die."
But even with this very specific information, Snape still never makes the connection to the concept of Horcruxes.
"Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken under conditions of need and valor - and he must not know that you give it! If Voldemort should read Harry's mind and see you acting for him -"
"I know," said Snape curtly. He approached the portrait of Dumbledore and pulled at its side. It swung forward, revealing a hidden cavity behind it from which he took the sword of Gryffindor.
"And you still aren't going to tell me why it's so important to give Potter the sword?" said Snape as he swung a traveling cloak over his robes.
"No, I don't think so," said Dumbledore's portrait. "He will know what to do with it.... "
When you look at all of these conversations together I think it's pretty clear that Snape never understood about the Horcruxes - even though Dumbledore specifically tells him that "a piece of Lord Voldemort's soul" attached itself to Harry's.
Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 10:26 am (#83 of 2988)
You're right.
Soul Search - Aug 1, 2008 12:03 pm (#84 of 2988)
A bit more support for Snape not, specifically, knowing about horcruxes.
The knowledge was a bit obscure. Hermione serched the Hogwart's library specifically for "horcruxes" and only found one reference. Dumbledore had removed all other books.
Interesting idea that Dumbledore left those books in his office for Snape to find. Could Dumbledore have anticipated that Hermione would just "Accio Horcrux Books." or something? Dumbledore didn't even know he was going to die that night. Or did he?
Dumbledore had to be very careful about the word "horcrux." If Voldemort even sensed the word from Snape he would have killed him. If Voldemort sensed "horcrux" in a Dumbledore context he might have moved them all, adding even more protections. Best Snape not even know anything about horcruxes or even that such a possibility existed.
Makes me wonder though. Snape was knowledgeble in the Dark Arts; how did he think Voldemort had survived the Godric's Hollow AK? Can't be too many ways of doing that.
wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2008 1:24 pm (#85 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 2:25 pm
Quinn's list of quotes reminded me of why I always thought previously that JKR intended us to think Snape did not know about the horcruxes.
The problem, in my opinion, is that it doesn't make any sense for a Dark Arts expert, who spends far and away more time around the adult LV than DD ever did, and who knows some of the basic info like about the diary in COS, the fact that LV didn't die, and so on, to be clueless about the horcruxes, especially after DD told him about Harry having a piece of LV's soul during HBP, well before he has to take the sword to Harry in DH.
I mean, Slughorn knew about horcruxes and we're supposed to believe Snape, who had loads at stake in this whole endeavor, never figured it out? It's just not believable to me, but I had thought that JKR wanted us to think Snape didn't know about them.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 1, 2008 1:48 pm (#86 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 2:51 pm
Why should it not be believable? He is never described (as far as I can recall) as a Dark Arts expert. Merely someone for whom the Dark Arts hold a particular fascination and for whom this has earned him a reputation as a Dart Arts lover, but never "expert".
He is adroit with the handling of curses and poisons and can even recognize the ingredients of polyjuice potion, but apart from this we are never given any reason to think he would know about Horcruxes - which, in my opinion, sound like a very "old school" sort of Dark Magic anyway.
Yes, Slughorn knows about them, but he also makes is very clear that this is the kind of knowledge never spoken of. He is absolutely shocked by Riddle's mere mention of the word and wonders where Riddle even heard it. So, unless Snape left Dumbledore's office and ran off to google "part of a soul that attaches itself to another" and came up with "wikipedia... ancient dark magic... horcruxes", not to know such a thing is not at all out of character or surprising, not to me, at least.
Anna L. Black - Aug 1, 2008 1:56 pm (#87 of 2988)
LOL, Quinn
I agree, it makes sense that Slughorn knew about them, since in his days at Hogwarts it still wasn't a banned subject. Students who came to school in DD's period didn't have a chance to find out about them (all for the best, of course). So it makes sense Snape didn't know about them. Also, Voldemort himself says that he did many experiments in order to become immortal, and I'm sure the DEs never really knew what those experiments were. With all due respect to Snape, he couldn't have competed with Voldemort when it came to Dark Arts knowledge
Madam Pince - Aug 1, 2008 1:59 pm (#88 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 3:11 pm
Exactly, wynnleaf. (Drat it! You always say exactly what I think! ) I could not imagine why someone as well-versed in the Dark Arts as Snape supposedly was would not know of at least the concept of horcruxes. It makes no sense. (Edit: Quinn, I can't find the quote, but I swear I remember Lupin telling Harry that Snape had read all there was to read about Dark Arts before he ever even came to Hogwarts... am I imagining that? At any rate, Snape is a Professor of DADA, so he must be something of an expert on the Dark Arts, no?)
However, I agree 100% with Quinn's point. The canon information JKR has given us absolutely points to the fact that Snape knew nothing about horcruxes. It seems absolutely clear to me from the quotes.
I would add that from the start I thought it would be perfectly natural for the Peverell ring, owned by Marvolo Gaunt, to be a cursed item (similar to the opal necklace.) It wouldn't seem odd to Snape for Dumbledore to have gotten Wither-Hand from touching it, I wouldn't think -- I can't see that he would've been wondering "How did he get that? Must be a Horcrux!" Gaunt was mad as a hatter, and it would make perfect sense that he would've cursed the ring to prevent any unworthy hands from touching it. I always assumed Snape just thought it was an ordinary Dark curse.
I don't know, of course, but I'm betting Snape wouldn't have to know the exact nature of the curse to at least do the mini-cure he was able to do. For example, if you're poisoned, it's undoubtedly ideal and most helpful if the doctor knows the exact poison used, but he/she could probably treat you to some degree anyway, without knowing exactly. In other words, there are probably some treatments that are "generic" to many poisons. I was assuming a similar situation to curing curses -- Snape is somewhat of an expert in Dark curses and he could undoubtedly come up with some sort of treatment even without knowing the exact curse. Maybe that's why he fussed about "...if you'd come to me sooner..." because maybe he felt that with more time he'd have been able to identify it precisely?
I can't figure why Snape was so thick about the horcruxes, though!
1) He was an expert on Dark Arts, and Lupin says he was well-read in them (I think.) He should've at least heard the term.
2) He was in Voldemort's inner circle -- surely he knew that Voldemort feared death more than anything else, and could then extrapolate (assuming he knew of the concept of horcruxes) that Voldy might've given them a try.
3) Snape was an accomplished Legilimens -- you would've thought he would've picked up a sliver of the word "horcrux" from Harry's brain at some point during the year, if not from his long association with Dumbledore (who probably was a good enough Occlumens to prevent it -- plus DD apparently stored all his dodgy memories in the Pensieve.)
4) Snape is not a dunderhead. He had several clues (as in Quinn's quotes) to put two and two together (ie: Why the sword? etc...)
I just can't figure it out. It's very out-of-character for Snape, in my opinion. But it's clear JKR was telling us that Snape didn't know about the horcruxes.
As far as the Hallows, I can't think of anything to indicate Snape knew anything about the Hallows. Snape doesn't seem the type to have read nursery tales, and I'd think Dumbledore would've guarded all information about the Elder Wand so as to reduce the risk of temptation. Jm2k, though.
Soul Search - Aug 1, 2008 2:14 pm (#89 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 3:15 pm
Anna L. Black,
"... it makes sense that Slughorn knew about them, since in his days at Hogwarts it still wasn't a banned subject. Students who came to school in DD's period didn't have a chance to find out about them ... . So it makes sense Snape didn't know about them."
Very good point.
I don't think the same reasoning can be applied to Hallows or the Elder Wand. The Elder Wand has a gory history, apparently within the history taught at Hogwarts. But the idea that it is a "Hallow" is not mentioned in that history. Even Ollivander had not heard the term "Hallow" associated with the Elder Wand.
While the fairy tale seems common, the extrapolation to actual "Hallows" seems reserved for nutcases like Lovegood. And Grindlewald.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 1, 2008 3:00 pm (#90 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 4:04 pm
Quinn, I can't find the quote, but I swear I remember Lupin telling Harry that Snape had read all there was to read about Dark Arts before he ever even came to Hogwarts... am I imagining that? - Madame Pince
No, you're not imagining it. But all Sirius says (in GF, I believe. I did look for the citation but can't find it at the moment. I'll look some more) is that Snape came to Hogwarts knowing more about the Dark Arts than most 7th years. And in OP Lupin and Sirius tell Harry that Snape was "up to his eyeballs" in Dark Arts which was one of the reasons James didn't like him.
But we know lots of non-experts taught DADA (with the possible exception of Moody, who was secretly a user of them and therefore the only real "expert"). Snape not being technically an "expert" yet still being asked to teach the subject doesn't really mean anything, as far as I'm concerned.
Still, even the book Hermione found about it in the library says that Horcruxes are so terrible that the authors are not going to discuss them. In other words, "This page intentionally left blank". Hardly anything to go on, even with having the starting place of the name "horcrux" which Snape didn't have.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 1, 2008 3:55 pm (#91 of 2988)
I just can't figure it out. It's very out-of-character for Snape, in my opinion. But it's clear JKR was telling us that Snape didn't know about the horcruxes.
Voldemort says he's experimented with various means of achieving immortality. Horcruxes are only one means. Snape may have known of some of the other means. Maybe there are other things one can do to one's soul that postpones death that do not involve splitting the soul and attaching it to an object.
Snape knows that Voldemort is obsessed with immortality and may have some false idea of how he is going about it. Dumbledore chooses not to correct him because he fears the danger if Voldemort suspects Snape knows anything.
wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2008 3:59 pm (#92 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 5:17 pm
Evidence for Snape as Dark Arts expert.
I don't count Sirius' comments about Snape being highly into it in school, although that does show that he was studying it quite intensely.
Regarding helping Katie Bell after she was cursed with the necklace: ‘Professor Snape knows much more about the Dark Arts than Madam Pomfrey, Harry.
Regarding Minerva's assumptions when Snape was able to run up the stairs and no one else could do it except the DEs. ‘He must have known a spell we didn’t,’ whispered McGonagall. ‘After all – he was the Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher ... I just assumed that he was in a hurry to chase after the Death Eaters who’d escaped up to the Tower ...’
Note that Lupin was there, but even though he, too, had been a Dark Arts teacher McGonagall didn't assume Lupin could have gotten past the barrier on the stairs to the tower.
When DD got cursed by the ring he says to Snape:
I am fortunate, extremely fortunate, that I have you, Severus.
"Fortunate, extremely fortunate" sounds like Snape is a rather rare person, not just the typical Dark Arts teacher kind of expert. Lupin was, other than Snape, the best Dark Arts teacher during Harry's years at Hogwarts and Lupin was in the Order, yet DD is extremely fortunate that he's got Snape. That seems to indicate that Snape has an expertise in working out Dark Arts that other Order members, including one who taught DADA, didn't have.
Also, recall that JKR says that curses are Dark, so Snape being an expert with curses is an aspect of being an expert with Dark Arts.
Madam Pince - Aug 1, 2008 4:51 pm (#93 of 2988)
Excellent points, both rambkowalczyk and wynnleaf.
Dumbledore seems to feel Snape is a Dark Arts expert, so that's good enough for me.
(Quinn, thanks for pointing me in the direction of the books for my quotes -- here I was poring over PoA. D'oh! )
tandaradei - Aug 1, 2008 6:43 pm (#94 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 7:50 pm
hehe, I am seeing number of compelling arguments from canon I had not forseen.
(I'm scurrying about, looking for something to contribute.) Here's one idea I have about Snape not knowing about horcruxes: Dumbledore forbade it. It could well be that when Dumbledore said something like, "Voldemort will be coming back" and Snape said "Why?" that Dumbledore said basically "I have my reasons, which you are not to investigate." I believe this as a real possibility.
One aspect of all this which I appear to be the only advocate of, is that Dumbledore and Snape shared addictive tendencies; Dumbledore was the elder, Snape the younger; and almost in 12-step methodology, Dumbledore "became" Snape's sponsor. So: what Dumbledore laid out for Snape, which Snape knew was for his own good ... well then he, Snape, willingly followed.
I'm not saying Snape didn't know anything about horcruxes; but that if he didn't it may have been because his mentor and general had instructed him to avoid even speculations ... just like Snape was to avoid teaching DADA until that last year.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
That aside, however, I am very interested in pursuing our new read-along with vigor; and intend to investigate these and other theories, as possible canon explanations for their defense, or their destruction, become available.
wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2008 7:28 pm (#95 of 2988)
Fascinating thought comparing Dumbledore's mentoring of Snape to the sponsor in a 12-step program. I don't know enough about how 12 step programs work, but it seems an interesting way of looking at DD and Snape.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 1, 2008 8:33 pm (#96 of 2988)
Well, even if Snape was an "expert" at Dark Arts - at least when compared with his immediate acquaintances and colleagues - that doesn't automatically mean that he would have known about Horcruxes. Regardless, I think it's clear from the text that he didn't, whether we find it "out of character" for him or not. I mean, if he had known about Horcruxes, surely he would have had no need to ask why Harry needed Gryffindor's sword, which Snape was on his very way to deliver.
I'm not sure I understand your 12-step analogy, Tandaradei. Could you please elaborate?
mona amon - Aug 2, 2008 5:29 am (#97 of 2988)
Good points everyone! My conclusions-
Snape may or may not have known about Horcruxes. More likely that he knew. After all there were books about them, even if they could not be found in the Hogwarts library, and Snape was very interested in the Dark Arts.
He may or may not have known whether LV made any, but I think it's likely he suspected that he made at least one Horcrux.
Dumbledore definitely did not tell the basket that spent time dangling from Voldy's arm anything about what he had discovered regarding Voldemort's Horcruxes.
Soul Search - Aug 2, 2008 6:03 am (#98 of 2988)
If Snape had suspected anything about "horcruxes" he would have brought it up when Dumbledore told him Harry had a piece of Voldemort in him and had to die so Voldemort could be killed. There can't be too many Dark Arts ways of defeating death that fit that particular set of conditions. Snape didn't say anything, so either he didn't know anything about horcruxes, maybe never even hearing the word, or he did know, but sensed that Dumbleodre didn't ever want "horcrux" mentioned between them.
I am still a litle intrigued by Dumbledore having the horcrux books in his office, where Snape would have certainly found them when he became headmaster. It is almost like Dumbledore was covering his bets so Snape would find out about horcruxes when he became headmaster and could help Harry. Hermione circumvented this need by "borrowing" the books, but Dumbledore couldn't have been sure she would take them.
tandaradei - Aug 2, 2008 7:06 am (#99 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 8:18 am
Quinn Crockett said:
...[cut]...I'm not sure I understand your 12-step analogy, Tandaradei. Could you please elaborate?...[cut]...
Dumbledore repented of his ways with Grindlewald, in life denouncing (1) "wizard's superiority" racism ... and eventually having to even defeat Grindlewald in battle; and further, by also (2) refusing power in refusing to be the Minster. From evidence of the cave mutterings & puttting on the ring, Dumbledore also (3) obsessed over Ariana's death, considering himself at least partially responsible. Finally, becoming possessor of the Elder Wand, DD had in some ways, unlimited access to (2) magical power, but didn't advertise it. Too, Dumbledore preceded Snape in terms of generations.
Snape repented of his ways with DEs, in life in essence denouncing (1) "wizard's superiority" racism as promoted by Voldemort, and eventually becoming instrumental in defeating Voldemort; and also (2) refusing power, by following Dumbledore's lead instead (from Godric's Hollow on). From evidence of Snape's Patronus and the letter he stole out of G12 and other signs, he also (3) obsessed over Lily's death, considering himself at least partially responsible. Finally, Snape came after Dumbledore in generations; and did many things under Dumbledore's direction.
In 12-step programs, addicts who have entered recovery (and lasted for a good time) often sponsor new addicts seeking recovery, who are new in their efforts. It's a basic idea that if someone has managed it, maybe they can help others needing it. FYI, everything a sponsor suggests to a "sponsee" is just that; but some have said its like this: "If you've fallen out of an airplane and your sponsor suggests you pull the cord for your parachute, well, it is wise to follow your sponsor's suggestion." The point being: addictions by definition have nearly impossible habits to overcome, as has been proven historically; and yet, through the 12-step programs many former addicts have actually helped newer addicts (in the last century) to actually recover!
I see some signs (marked, above) that Jo has unintentionally set up DD up as a kind of sponsor for Snape. If DD were to sponsor Snape, I'd expect DD to try to keep Snape from similar temptations that DD had himself succumbed to: (1) I'd think DD would want to keep Snape away from Dark Arts basically, which seem addictive to Snape; this would also include IMO keeping him unaware of the powers of the Elder Wand; (2) I'd think DD would want to keep Snape in ignorance of the Resurrection Stone, since Snape might be as tempted DD was to use it; and (3) I'd think DD would be very insistent that Snape follow DD's "suggestions."
Quinn Crockett - Aug 2, 2008 9:09 am (#100 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 10:11 am
Yes, I see that, Tandaradei. Interesting (and unique) analogy. And Dumbledore basically says as much to Harry in King's Cross: that he didn't want Harry to be tempted by the Hallows, so it seems reasonable that Dumbledore would also have applied this same logic over his many years long relationship with Snape. Snape also allows himself to be directed by Dumbledore, submitting to him in a way similar to what you describe, believing he is merely serving out his penance.
Snape may or may not have known about Horcruxes. More likely that he knew. - Mona
If he knew, why did he have to ask, "So you're still not going to tell me why Potter needs the sword?"
If he knew, why did he not say something when Dumbledore specifically told him that "a piece of Lord Voldemort's soul attached itself to Harry's. As long as Harry is alive and protecting that piece of Voldemort's soul, Voldemort cannot die." I mean, it doesn't really get much plainer than that; but Snape doesn't even react to this bizarre information.
If I had been writing that scene, and wanted to convey that Snape did understand what Dumbledore was saying, I would have had him respond simply, "A Horcrux." to which Dumbledore would have acknowledged, "Precisely." before going on with the rest of his speech. But JKR never gives us any indication that Snape even understood the concept, let alone that Voldemort had done it even once.
Were the Horcrux books in Dumbledore's office out in the open? Because if they were hidden away from plain sight (like the sword) Hermione could still have "accioed" them.
Since Snape "treated" DD's injury from the ring, I can't help thinking he at least had to know about this particular Horcrux--that it was a Horcrux--in order to help Dumbledore. Whether he knew that there were more of them--and how many or what DD suspected they were--is debatable, I think, at least from a time standpoint. I think he may have received that final piece of information at the time DD told him about Nagini ... and about Harry.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2008 8:53 am (#77 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 9:54 am
Absolutely Solitaire.
So does everyone agree? Snape probably knew about the horcruxes, at least that there were some, and by the time DD told him about Nagini, he knew there were more than one.
By the way, I didn't think it likely that DD would assume that Hermione would accio those books on Dark Arts from his desk. Since DD seemed to think Snape would become Headmaster or at least have access to his office, I tend to think DD left all those books on his desk for Snape's use.
So did Snape know about any of the Hallows? That one is tougher, in my opinion. That last confrontation with LV, I can't tell whether Snape had figured it out that DD's wand was the Elder Wand or not. And he did have the evidence of LV trying to sort out why wands were giving problems. I suppose he could have been told by DD's portrait, especially if DD's portrait figured out, perhaps from Snape's reports of LV's wand research, that LV was after the Elder Wand.
mona amon - Aug 1, 2008 8:57 am (#78 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 10:02 am
Why should Snape have known that it was a Horcrux? Dumbledore gets injured because of the protective curse that Voldemort puts on it, not because it's a Horcrux.
This is how I imagine the scene- Dumbledore staggers into his study, gravely injured. He removes the ring and stabs it with Gryfindor's Sword, destroying the Horcrux. Then he sends for Snape. So the ring is no longer cursed, and no longer a Horcrux by the time Snape gets there. He shows Snape his injured hand and says "Look what that ring did to me!" and loses consciousness. Snape examines Dumbledore, and expert that he is in such matters, can recognise a powerful Dark curse when he sees one. So he concludes that the ring carried a powerful curse, and as soon as Dumbledore regains consciousness, rebukes him for putting it on, for surely a wizard of Dumbledore's calibre would also be able to recognise a cursed object when he sees one.
He may have wondered why the ring was cursed and what Dumbledore was doing with it, but there's nothing there to make him conclude that it was a Horcrux.
EDIT: Cross Posted with Wynnleaf. I think there is some evidence to show that Dumbledore did not tell Snape about the Horcruxes. I'll try and search for it tomorrow. Now I'm off to bed!
Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 9:14 am (#79 of 2988)
I think Snape may have needed to know what kind of curse was on that ring in order to provide an "antidote" of sorts to the spell. JM2K ...
Anna L. Black - Aug 1, 2008 10:00 am (#80 of 2988)
Yes, but the fact that the ring was a horcrux doesn't determine what the curse on it should be... So Snape could have treated DD without knowing about the horcrux.
mona, I see it the same way you do
Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 10:05 am (#81 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 11:06 am
Isn't there a special spell used to make a Horcrux? I'm thinking it might have been necessary for Snape to know that this was the sort of spell used on the ring.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 1, 2008 10:07 am (#82 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 11:45 am
So does everyone agree? Snape probably knew about the horcruxes, at least that there were some, and by the time DD told him about Nagini, he knew there were more than one. - Wynnleaf
Nope. I don't.
Consider the following:
"Why," said Snape, without preamble, "why did you put on that ring? It carries a curse, surely you realized that. Why even touch it?"
Marvolo Gaunts's ring lay on the desk before Dumbledore. It was cracked; the sword of Gryffindor lay beside it.
Dumbledore grimaced.
"I... was a fool. Sorely tempted..."
"Tempted by what?"
Dumbledore did not answer. [So it seems Snape knows nothing of the Hallows either].
"It is a miracle you managed to return here!" Snape sounded furious. "That ring carried a curse of extraordinary power, to contain it is all we can hope for; I have trapped the curse in one hand for the time being - " ....... "If you had only summoned me a little earlier, I might have been able to do more, buy you more time!" said Snape furiously.
He looked down at the broken ring and the sword. "Did you think that breaking the ring would break the curse?"
"Something like that ... I was delirious, no doubt..." said Dumbledore. - DH ch. 33
Another memory walk-and-talk:
(I'm only citing the pertinent elements of the conversation)
"What are you doing with Potter, all these evenings you are closeted together?" Snape asked abruptly. ....
.... "I spend time with Harry because I have things to discuss with him, information I must give him before it is too late." .....
....."And why may I not have the same information?"
"I prefer not to put all of my secrets in one basket, particularly not a basket that spends so much time dangling on the arm of Lord Voldemort." ....
"Yet you confide much more in a boy who is incapable of Occlumency, whose magic is mediocre, and who has a direct connection into the Dark Lord's mind!"
"Voldemort fears that connection," said Dumbledore. "Not so long ago he had one small taste of what truly sharing Harry's mind means to him. It was pain such as he has never experienced. He will not try to possess Harry again, I am sure of it. Not in that way."
"I don't understand."
"Lord Voldemort's soul, maimed as it is, cannot bear close contact with a soul like Harry's. Like a tongue on frozen steel, like flesh in flame - "
"Souls? We were talking of minds!"
"In the case of Harry and Lord Voldemort, to speak of one is to speak of the other." - ibid.
So, Snape still doesn't get it about the Horcruxes. It's not until Dumbledore reveals that Harry must think he has to die, that Dumbledore mentions even a single one, though he never uses the actual term.
"Tell [Harry] that on the night Lord Voldemort tried to kill him, when Lily cast her own life between them as a shield, the Killing Curse rebounded upon Lord Voldemort, and a fragment of Voldemort's soul was blasted apart from the whole, and latched itself onto the only living soul left in that collapsing building. Part of Lord Voldemort's soul lives inside Harry, and it is that which gives him the power of speech with snakes, and a connection with Lord Voldemort's mind that he has never understood. And while that fragment of soul, unmissed by Lord Voldemort, remains attached to and protected by Harry, Lord Voldemort cannot die."
But even with this very specific information, Snape still never makes the connection to the concept of Horcruxes.
"Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken under conditions of need and valor - and he must not know that you give it! If Voldemort should read Harry's mind and see you acting for him -"
"I know," said Snape curtly. He approached the portrait of Dumbledore and pulled at its side. It swung forward, revealing a hidden cavity behind it from which he took the sword of Gryffindor.
"And you still aren't going to tell me why it's so important to give Potter the sword?" said Snape as he swung a traveling cloak over his robes.
"No, I don't think so," said Dumbledore's portrait. "He will know what to do with it.... "
When you look at all of these conversations together I think it's pretty clear that Snape never understood about the Horcruxes - even though Dumbledore specifically tells him that "a piece of Lord Voldemort's soul" attached itself to Harry's.
Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 10:26 am (#83 of 2988)
You're right.
Soul Search - Aug 1, 2008 12:03 pm (#84 of 2988)
A bit more support for Snape not, specifically, knowing about horcruxes.
The knowledge was a bit obscure. Hermione serched the Hogwart's library specifically for "horcruxes" and only found one reference. Dumbledore had removed all other books.
Interesting idea that Dumbledore left those books in his office for Snape to find. Could Dumbledore have anticipated that Hermione would just "Accio Horcrux Books." or something? Dumbledore didn't even know he was going to die that night. Or did he?
Dumbledore had to be very careful about the word "horcrux." If Voldemort even sensed the word from Snape he would have killed him. If Voldemort sensed "horcrux" in a Dumbledore context he might have moved them all, adding even more protections. Best Snape not even know anything about horcruxes or even that such a possibility existed.
Makes me wonder though. Snape was knowledgeble in the Dark Arts; how did he think Voldemort had survived the Godric's Hollow AK? Can't be too many ways of doing that.
wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2008 1:24 pm (#85 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 2:25 pm
Quinn's list of quotes reminded me of why I always thought previously that JKR intended us to think Snape did not know about the horcruxes.
The problem, in my opinion, is that it doesn't make any sense for a Dark Arts expert, who spends far and away more time around the adult LV than DD ever did, and who knows some of the basic info like about the diary in COS, the fact that LV didn't die, and so on, to be clueless about the horcruxes, especially after DD told him about Harry having a piece of LV's soul during HBP, well before he has to take the sword to Harry in DH.
I mean, Slughorn knew about horcruxes and we're supposed to believe Snape, who had loads at stake in this whole endeavor, never figured it out? It's just not believable to me, but I had thought that JKR wanted us to think Snape didn't know about them.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 1, 2008 1:48 pm (#86 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 2:51 pm
Why should it not be believable? He is never described (as far as I can recall) as a Dark Arts expert. Merely someone for whom the Dark Arts hold a particular fascination and for whom this has earned him a reputation as a Dart Arts lover, but never "expert".
He is adroit with the handling of curses and poisons and can even recognize the ingredients of polyjuice potion, but apart from this we are never given any reason to think he would know about Horcruxes - which, in my opinion, sound like a very "old school" sort of Dark Magic anyway.
Yes, Slughorn knows about them, but he also makes is very clear that this is the kind of knowledge never spoken of. He is absolutely shocked by Riddle's mere mention of the word and wonders where Riddle even heard it. So, unless Snape left Dumbledore's office and ran off to google "part of a soul that attaches itself to another" and came up with "wikipedia... ancient dark magic... horcruxes", not to know such a thing is not at all out of character or surprising, not to me, at least.
Anna L. Black - Aug 1, 2008 1:56 pm (#87 of 2988)
LOL, Quinn
I agree, it makes sense that Slughorn knew about them, since in his days at Hogwarts it still wasn't a banned subject. Students who came to school in DD's period didn't have a chance to find out about them (all for the best, of course). So it makes sense Snape didn't know about them. Also, Voldemort himself says that he did many experiments in order to become immortal, and I'm sure the DEs never really knew what those experiments were. With all due respect to Snape, he couldn't have competed with Voldemort when it came to Dark Arts knowledge
Madam Pince - Aug 1, 2008 1:59 pm (#88 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 3:11 pm
Exactly, wynnleaf. (Drat it! You always say exactly what I think! ) I could not imagine why someone as well-versed in the Dark Arts as Snape supposedly was would not know of at least the concept of horcruxes. It makes no sense. (Edit: Quinn, I can't find the quote, but I swear I remember Lupin telling Harry that Snape had read all there was to read about Dark Arts before he ever even came to Hogwarts... am I imagining that? At any rate, Snape is a Professor of DADA, so he must be something of an expert on the Dark Arts, no?)
However, I agree 100% with Quinn's point. The canon information JKR has given us absolutely points to the fact that Snape knew nothing about horcruxes. It seems absolutely clear to me from the quotes.
I would add that from the start I thought it would be perfectly natural for the Peverell ring, owned by Marvolo Gaunt, to be a cursed item (similar to the opal necklace.) It wouldn't seem odd to Snape for Dumbledore to have gotten Wither-Hand from touching it, I wouldn't think -- I can't see that he would've been wondering "How did he get that? Must be a Horcrux!" Gaunt was mad as a hatter, and it would make perfect sense that he would've cursed the ring to prevent any unworthy hands from touching it. I always assumed Snape just thought it was an ordinary Dark curse.
I don't know, of course, but I'm betting Snape wouldn't have to know the exact nature of the curse to at least do the mini-cure he was able to do. For example, if you're poisoned, it's undoubtedly ideal and most helpful if the doctor knows the exact poison used, but he/she could probably treat you to some degree anyway, without knowing exactly. In other words, there are probably some treatments that are "generic" to many poisons. I was assuming a similar situation to curing curses -- Snape is somewhat of an expert in Dark curses and he could undoubtedly come up with some sort of treatment even without knowing the exact curse. Maybe that's why he fussed about "...if you'd come to me sooner..." because maybe he felt that with more time he'd have been able to identify it precisely?
I can't figure why Snape was so thick about the horcruxes, though!
1) He was an expert on Dark Arts, and Lupin says he was well-read in them (I think.) He should've at least heard the term.
2) He was in Voldemort's inner circle -- surely he knew that Voldemort feared death more than anything else, and could then extrapolate (assuming he knew of the concept of horcruxes) that Voldy might've given them a try.
3) Snape was an accomplished Legilimens -- you would've thought he would've picked up a sliver of the word "horcrux" from Harry's brain at some point during the year, if not from his long association with Dumbledore (who probably was a good enough Occlumens to prevent it -- plus DD apparently stored all his dodgy memories in the Pensieve.)
4) Snape is not a dunderhead. He had several clues (as in Quinn's quotes) to put two and two together (ie: Why the sword? etc...)
I just can't figure it out. It's very out-of-character for Snape, in my opinion. But it's clear JKR was telling us that Snape didn't know about the horcruxes.
As far as the Hallows, I can't think of anything to indicate Snape knew anything about the Hallows. Snape doesn't seem the type to have read nursery tales, and I'd think Dumbledore would've guarded all information about the Elder Wand so as to reduce the risk of temptation. Jm2k, though.
Soul Search - Aug 1, 2008 2:14 pm (#89 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 3:15 pm
Anna L. Black,
"... it makes sense that Slughorn knew about them, since in his days at Hogwarts it still wasn't a banned subject. Students who came to school in DD's period didn't have a chance to find out about them ... . So it makes sense Snape didn't know about them."
Very good point.
I don't think the same reasoning can be applied to Hallows or the Elder Wand. The Elder Wand has a gory history, apparently within the history taught at Hogwarts. But the idea that it is a "Hallow" is not mentioned in that history. Even Ollivander had not heard the term "Hallow" associated with the Elder Wand.
While the fairy tale seems common, the extrapolation to actual "Hallows" seems reserved for nutcases like Lovegood. And Grindlewald.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 1, 2008 3:00 pm (#90 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 4:04 pm
Quinn, I can't find the quote, but I swear I remember Lupin telling Harry that Snape had read all there was to read about Dark Arts before he ever even came to Hogwarts... am I imagining that? - Madame Pince
No, you're not imagining it. But all Sirius says (in GF, I believe. I did look for the citation but can't find it at the moment. I'll look some more) is that Snape came to Hogwarts knowing more about the Dark Arts than most 7th years. And in OP Lupin and Sirius tell Harry that Snape was "up to his eyeballs" in Dark Arts which was one of the reasons James didn't like him.
But we know lots of non-experts taught DADA (with the possible exception of Moody, who was secretly a user of them and therefore the only real "expert"). Snape not being technically an "expert" yet still being asked to teach the subject doesn't really mean anything, as far as I'm concerned.
Still, even the book Hermione found about it in the library says that Horcruxes are so terrible that the authors are not going to discuss them. In other words, "This page intentionally left blank". Hardly anything to go on, even with having the starting place of the name "horcrux" which Snape didn't have.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 1, 2008 3:55 pm (#91 of 2988)
I just can't figure it out. It's very out-of-character for Snape, in my opinion. But it's clear JKR was telling us that Snape didn't know about the horcruxes.
Voldemort says he's experimented with various means of achieving immortality. Horcruxes are only one means. Snape may have known of some of the other means. Maybe there are other things one can do to one's soul that postpones death that do not involve splitting the soul and attaching it to an object.
Snape knows that Voldemort is obsessed with immortality and may have some false idea of how he is going about it. Dumbledore chooses not to correct him because he fears the danger if Voldemort suspects Snape knows anything.
wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2008 3:59 pm (#92 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 5:17 pm
Evidence for Snape as Dark Arts expert.
I don't count Sirius' comments about Snape being highly into it in school, although that does show that he was studying it quite intensely.
Regarding helping Katie Bell after she was cursed with the necklace: ‘Professor Snape knows much more about the Dark Arts than Madam Pomfrey, Harry.
Regarding Minerva's assumptions when Snape was able to run up the stairs and no one else could do it except the DEs. ‘He must have known a spell we didn’t,’ whispered McGonagall. ‘After all – he was the Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher ... I just assumed that he was in a hurry to chase after the Death Eaters who’d escaped up to the Tower ...’
Note that Lupin was there, but even though he, too, had been a Dark Arts teacher McGonagall didn't assume Lupin could have gotten past the barrier on the stairs to the tower.
When DD got cursed by the ring he says to Snape:
I am fortunate, extremely fortunate, that I have you, Severus.
"Fortunate, extremely fortunate" sounds like Snape is a rather rare person, not just the typical Dark Arts teacher kind of expert. Lupin was, other than Snape, the best Dark Arts teacher during Harry's years at Hogwarts and Lupin was in the Order, yet DD is extremely fortunate that he's got Snape. That seems to indicate that Snape has an expertise in working out Dark Arts that other Order members, including one who taught DADA, didn't have.
Also, recall that JKR says that curses are Dark, so Snape being an expert with curses is an aspect of being an expert with Dark Arts.
Madam Pince - Aug 1, 2008 4:51 pm (#93 of 2988)
Excellent points, both rambkowalczyk and wynnleaf.
Dumbledore seems to feel Snape is a Dark Arts expert, so that's good enough for me.
(Quinn, thanks for pointing me in the direction of the books for my quotes -- here I was poring over PoA. D'oh! )
tandaradei - Aug 1, 2008 6:43 pm (#94 of 2988)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 7:50 pm
hehe, I am seeing number of compelling arguments from canon I had not forseen.
(I'm scurrying about, looking for something to contribute.) Here's one idea I have about Snape not knowing about horcruxes: Dumbledore forbade it. It could well be that when Dumbledore said something like, "Voldemort will be coming back" and Snape said "Why?" that Dumbledore said basically "I have my reasons, which you are not to investigate." I believe this as a real possibility.
One aspect of all this which I appear to be the only advocate of, is that Dumbledore and Snape shared addictive tendencies; Dumbledore was the elder, Snape the younger; and almost in 12-step methodology, Dumbledore "became" Snape's sponsor. So: what Dumbledore laid out for Snape, which Snape knew was for his own good ... well then he, Snape, willingly followed.
I'm not saying Snape didn't know anything about horcruxes; but that if he didn't it may have been because his mentor and general had instructed him to avoid even speculations ... just like Snape was to avoid teaching DADA until that last year.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
That aside, however, I am very interested in pursuing our new read-along with vigor; and intend to investigate these and other theories, as possible canon explanations for their defense, or their destruction, become available.
wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2008 7:28 pm (#95 of 2988)
Fascinating thought comparing Dumbledore's mentoring of Snape to the sponsor in a 12-step program. I don't know enough about how 12 step programs work, but it seems an interesting way of looking at DD and Snape.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 1, 2008 8:33 pm (#96 of 2988)
Well, even if Snape was an "expert" at Dark Arts - at least when compared with his immediate acquaintances and colleagues - that doesn't automatically mean that he would have known about Horcruxes. Regardless, I think it's clear from the text that he didn't, whether we find it "out of character" for him or not. I mean, if he had known about Horcruxes, surely he would have had no need to ask why Harry needed Gryffindor's sword, which Snape was on his very way to deliver.
I'm not sure I understand your 12-step analogy, Tandaradei. Could you please elaborate?
mona amon - Aug 2, 2008 5:29 am (#97 of 2988)
Good points everyone! My conclusions-
Snape may or may not have known about Horcruxes. More likely that he knew. After all there were books about them, even if they could not be found in the Hogwarts library, and Snape was very interested in the Dark Arts.
He may or may not have known whether LV made any, but I think it's likely he suspected that he made at least one Horcrux.
Dumbledore definitely did not tell the basket that spent time dangling from Voldy's arm anything about what he had discovered regarding Voldemort's Horcruxes.
Soul Search - Aug 2, 2008 6:03 am (#98 of 2988)
If Snape had suspected anything about "horcruxes" he would have brought it up when Dumbledore told him Harry had a piece of Voldemort in him and had to die so Voldemort could be killed. There can't be too many Dark Arts ways of defeating death that fit that particular set of conditions. Snape didn't say anything, so either he didn't know anything about horcruxes, maybe never even hearing the word, or he did know, but sensed that Dumbleodre didn't ever want "horcrux" mentioned between them.
I am still a litle intrigued by Dumbledore having the horcrux books in his office, where Snape would have certainly found them when he became headmaster. It is almost like Dumbledore was covering his bets so Snape would find out about horcruxes when he became headmaster and could help Harry. Hermione circumvented this need by "borrowing" the books, but Dumbledore couldn't have been sure she would take them.
tandaradei - Aug 2, 2008 7:06 am (#99 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 8:18 am
Quinn Crockett said:
...[cut]...I'm not sure I understand your 12-step analogy, Tandaradei. Could you please elaborate?...[cut]...
Dumbledore repented of his ways with Grindlewald, in life denouncing (1) "wizard's superiority" racism ... and eventually having to even defeat Grindlewald in battle; and further, by also (2) refusing power in refusing to be the Minster. From evidence of the cave mutterings & puttting on the ring, Dumbledore also (3) obsessed over Ariana's death, considering himself at least partially responsible. Finally, becoming possessor of the Elder Wand, DD had in some ways, unlimited access to (2) magical power, but didn't advertise it. Too, Dumbledore preceded Snape in terms of generations.
Snape repented of his ways with DEs, in life in essence denouncing (1) "wizard's superiority" racism as promoted by Voldemort, and eventually becoming instrumental in defeating Voldemort; and also (2) refusing power, by following Dumbledore's lead instead (from Godric's Hollow on). From evidence of Snape's Patronus and the letter he stole out of G12 and other signs, he also (3) obsessed over Lily's death, considering himself at least partially responsible. Finally, Snape came after Dumbledore in generations; and did many things under Dumbledore's direction.
In 12-step programs, addicts who have entered recovery (and lasted for a good time) often sponsor new addicts seeking recovery, who are new in their efforts. It's a basic idea that if someone has managed it, maybe they can help others needing it. FYI, everything a sponsor suggests to a "sponsee" is just that; but some have said its like this: "If you've fallen out of an airplane and your sponsor suggests you pull the cord for your parachute, well, it is wise to follow your sponsor's suggestion." The point being: addictions by definition have nearly impossible habits to overcome, as has been proven historically; and yet, through the 12-step programs many former addicts have actually helped newer addicts (in the last century) to actually recover!
I see some signs (marked, above) that Jo has unintentionally set up DD up as a kind of sponsor for Snape. If DD were to sponsor Snape, I'd expect DD to try to keep Snape from similar temptations that DD had himself succumbed to: (1) I'd think DD would want to keep Snape away from Dark Arts basically, which seem addictive to Snape; this would also include IMO keeping him unaware of the powers of the Elder Wand; (2) I'd think DD would want to keep Snape in ignorance of the Resurrection Stone, since Snape might be as tempted DD was to use it; and (3) I'd think DD would be very insistent that Snape follow DD's "suggestions."
Quinn Crockett - Aug 2, 2008 9:09 am (#100 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 10:11 am
Yes, I see that, Tandaradei. Interesting (and unique) analogy. And Dumbledore basically says as much to Harry in King's Cross: that he didn't want Harry to be tempted by the Hallows, so it seems reasonable that Dumbledore would also have applied this same logic over his many years long relationship with Snape. Snape also allows himself to be directed by Dumbledore, submitting to him in a way similar to what you describe, believing he is merely serving out his penance.
Snape may or may not have known about Horcruxes. More likely that he knew. - Mona
If he knew, why did he have to ask, "So you're still not going to tell me why Potter needs the sword?"
If he knew, why did he not say something when Dumbledore specifically told him that "a piece of Lord Voldemort's soul attached itself to Harry's. As long as Harry is alive and protecting that piece of Voldemort's soul, Voldemort cannot die." I mean, it doesn't really get much plainer than that; but Snape doesn't even react to this bizarre information.
If I had been writing that scene, and wanted to convey that Snape did understand what Dumbledore was saying, I would have had him respond simply, "A Horcrux." to which Dumbledore would have acknowledged, "Precisely." before going on with the rest of his speech. But JKR never gives us any indication that Snape even understood the concept, let alone that Voldemort had done it even once.
Were the Horcrux books in Dumbledore's office out in the open? Because if they were hidden away from plain sight (like the sword) Hermione could still have "accioed" them.
Last edited by Mona on Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2008 10:18 am (#101 of 2988)
Quinn, if Snape figured out about LV having horcruxes, then it may not have been until after DD told him about the piece of LV's soul in Harry. As for why he would ask about the sword, that seems simple to me, in that Snape 1. wouldn't want DD to know he'd figured out about the horcruxes and 2. just knowing the horcruxes exist doesn't mean you know how they are destroyed.
As for the 12 step analogy, I think it works fairly well. We have had a number of discussions in the past about the close parallels between DD and Snape and their progression from going off in a very wrong direction in their youth, being the direct or indirect cause of the death of someone they loved, etc. So I could see this 12-step analogy working rather well.
While I doubt that JKR set up the 12-step analogy, I do think she intended there to be parallels between Snape and DD.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 2, 2008 11:24 am (#102 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 12:56 pm
1. [Snape] wouldn't want DD to know he'd figured out about the horcruxes - Why? The danger was in Voldemort finding out, not Dumbledore. Besides, Dumbledore was dead so, what was he going to do about it? Walk out of his portrait?
2. just knowing the horcruxes exist doesn't mean you know how they are destroyed. - Just like being a "dark arts expert" doesn't mean you know about Horcruxes.
I think what it really comes down to is Snape let Dumbledore do all the thinking on anything Voldemort related. Part of this was for Snape's own safety, but part of it also was probably out the notion of submitting as a way of serving his penance; doing only what he was told.
Orion - Aug 2, 2008 12:14 pm (#103 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 1:14 pm
It is extremely unlikely that Snape has never heard about Horcruxes, looking at it from a logical point of view, but logic often doesn't help you much with Rowling. IMO Rowling makes us believe that Snape doesn't know about them for plot reasons. If Snape knew about them there wouldn't be a reason for him not to go after them on his own. A naturally curious person like him wouldn't stay put in Hogwarts if he could investigate instead. But Harry has to be the Hero and find out about them on his own, so let him. Snape would have found them in a tenth of the time, being a lot brighter than these kids, but it's Harry's story.
wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2008 1:40 pm (#104 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 2:42 pm
Actually, I don't think the evidence of the books was that Snape let Dumbledore "do all the thinking" because there's a number of times where Snape clearly directly disagrees with Dumbledore. Yes, he follows Dumbledore's directives, but that doesn't mean he's not thinking for himself.
In any case, it seems almost unbelievable that a highly intelligent and creative person, as Snape was obviously shown to be, would just turn off his brain and stop thinking when a major curious problem was in front of him and directly concerned him.
The reason he wouldn't tell DD if he had figured it out is because it seems fairly clear that Snape respected DD and therefore wouldn't necessarily want to tell DD what he knew, when he knew DD was concerned about Snape (going around on LV's arm) would know to much.
As for not knowing how a specific horcrux could be destroyed somehow being on par with a Dark Arts expert who never heard of horcruxes, I disagree. The horcruxes get destroyed in numerous ways, and even Harry and Hermione seem to be able to figure out some methods (like the fiend fire). It doesn't seem to require a genius. The question in this case might have been the Sword of Gryffindor as well as the specific qualities of the horcrux. Perhaps Snape doesn't know the powers of Gryffindor's sword?
It is extremely unlikely that Snape has never heard about Horcruxes, looking at it from a logical point of view, but logic often doesn't help you much with Rowling. IMO Rowling makes us believe that Snape doesn't know about them for plot reasons. (Orion)
Yes, absolutely. These are sort of like plot holes. We're supposed to believe something that really isn't very believable, given the situations and characters she's created. She wants us to believe it for plot purposes, but it doesn't really work with what she's shown us elsewhere about the character.
Madam Pince - Aug 2, 2008 6:55 pm (#105 of 2988)
It is extremely unlikely that Snape has never heard about Horcruxes, looking at it from a logical point of view, but logic often doesn't help you much with Rowling. IMO Rowling makes us believe that Snape doesn't know about them for plot reasons. (Orion)
Yes, absolutely. These are sort of like plot holes. We're supposed to believe something that really isn't very believable, given the situations and characters she's created. She wants us to believe it for plot purposes, but it doesn't really work with what she's shown us elsewhere about the character. --wynnleaf
Agreed. One other thing that occurred to me -- if Hermione Granger (yes, admittedly the brightest witch of her age but still just a student with only 6 years of magical training) could find a way to discover what a horcrux was, then surely Snape would've been able to do it. No disrespect to Hermione, and I know Hermione had been pointed in the right direction, but really...
Solitaire - Aug 2, 2008 7:04 pm (#106 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 8:06 pm
It does seem that someone who was "up to his eyes in the Dark Arts" might be more likely to have at least heard of a Horcrux, even if he was not particularly familiar with them. Hermione probably would never have heard the word had it not been for Harry. JM2K ...
Quinn Crockett - Aug 2, 2008 8:16 pm (#107 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 9:46 pm
Nevertheless, there is not one word in the text to suggest that Snape had any idea what Dumbledore was talking about, even when Dumbledore spells it all out for him.
Snape's specialty was in Curses, which are (apparently) inherently Dark (he came to Hogwarts knowing more curses than most 7th years); and he was also a pretty fine dab hand at Potions. But that's all we're ever given to know about his so-called expertise with Dark Arts.
Do we call it a "plot hole" when Ron opens the Chamber of Secrets using Parseltongue? Because from the way his character is written up to that point, one would never expect Ron to be clever enough to figure something like that out, let alone remember the right word if he did. Do we call it "out of character" when Ron, always so sarcastic and glib, collapses in tears? And yet he does both and we accept it unquestioningly.
In this vein, why should Snape's ignorance of Horcruxes, about which Dumbledore says, "No book would have given that information." (HBP ch. 23), be so surprising? Slughorn says, "...that's very Dark stuff, very Dark indeed." (ibid). Sounds to me like the only way anyone can even learn about it is through word of mouth - and Slughorn tells Riddle "... keep it quiet, what I've told - that is to say, what we've discussed. People wouldn't like to think we've been chatting about Horcruxes. It's a banned subject at Hogwarts, you know... Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it..." Not only is it "a banned subject", but it is so taboo that Slughorn felt the need to try to "edit" his own memory of even a mere academic conversation about it.
So Horcruxes is a subject that is all but unavailable in literature, that is considered completely taboo by all and sundry and that is banned at Hogwarts. Yet somehow Snape was supposed to have learned all about this.
From whom?
Madam Pince - Aug 2, 2008 11:49 pm (#108 of 2988)
Do we call it a "plot hole" when Ron opens the Chamber of Secrets using Parseltongue?
I do. Not because Ron is "thick," but because we have been led to believe that that skill is really rare and that inheriting the ability through bloodlines has something to do with it.
Sounds to me like the only way anyone can even learn about it is through word of mouth
No, Hermione got her information out of a book. I would think that if Hermione could get hold of such a book, then so could Snape have done. The book was in Hogwarts -- it was accessible (though certainly not easily accessible.)
I don't say Snape had learned "all about this," I only say it seems odd to me that he wouldn't have at least heard of the concept, which might have made him wonder somewhere along the line. But as you say, JKR's text does not give us one word to suggest that Snape did know.
So my point is that JKR (yet again) wrote something that is a bit contrary to what she's previously laid out for us, because she needs to do so in order to make the plot work. Maybe that's OK -- well, obviously it is. But it's just one of those little details about her style of writing that bothers me. Probably it was unavoidable given the haste in which the stories had to be churned out, and the depth of detail she went into to make her magical world as magical as it is. It's bound to be almost impossible to reconcile all those details. It just becomes irritating (for me as a reader) when we start to closely examine everything and parse everything out, and we find these incongruities.
(Please forgive me if this sounds testy -- my neighbors down the street decided to have a "last fling" with their fireworks at 3:30 a.m. so I'm a bit grumpy right now... )
Julia H. - Aug 3, 2008 6:12 am (#109 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 7:15 am
Fascinating discussion. I missed a lot! Snape knowing / not knowing about Horcruxes: I agree with those who say JKR apparently does not intend him to know about them or to take part in their destruction - for plot reasons obviously. Perhaps she wants the youngest generation to do it all alone (except for the ring, which is destroyed by DD). But I also agree that it is a bit illogical and out of character for Snape. I do think Snape is a dark arts expert: he may specialize in curses and in healing dark magic injuries but he must know about other, related fields of the dark arts as well. I guess inventing curses requires a lot of background knowledge and Snape also teaches DADA and the course probably does not concentrate on curses or healing (cf. the alternative ways of fighting dementors etc.). Even Regulus, who is not known as a dark arts expert, discovers the secret of the locket (despite DD's ban on literature concerning Horcruxes).
So, if it were not for plot reasons, it would make perfect sense for Snape to know about Horcruxes and even to help Harry destroy them since DD knows or strongly suspects that one Horcrux is inside Hogwarts. DD foresees that Hogwarts will fall into LV's grasp after his death and he wants Snape to be in charge there and he must suspect that Harry will not enter the school run by LV's government. While Snape could easily look for at least the diadem in the school, that task is for Harry, who can enter Hogwarts only with great difficulties. But Snape gets the task of giving the last piece of information to Harry, with whom he has no contact at all. Plot reasons.
Having said all that, I don't think it is expressly against canon (even if it was not JKR's intention) to find it possible that at some point, Snape understands the problem of Horcruxes; perhaps after DD has told him the last secret about Harry - not on the spot, since he is rather shocked by Harry's fate and the apparent futility of his own efforts to keep Harry alive, but later on. However, he still does not have the specific information concerning the number and the whereabouts of LV's Horcruxes, which is known only by DD and Harry. His question to DD "And you still aren't going to tell me..." can have two purposes I can think of: Either JKR wants to emphasize that Snape does not know about Harry's task (I don't know why it is important to underline this at that point) or JKR wants to show that Snape is offended or angry with DD. His way of speaking in this scene is rather different from the way he talked to DD before. He feels left out and betrayed even though he still keeps following DD's plan and fulfilling his promise. The way he puts the question certainly anticipates a negative answer. In this context, it would be within character for Snape not to mention what he knows or suspects despite DD's secrecy and to bitterly accept finally (?) that without the missing information, he cannot do more than what he is intended to do.
wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2008 6:19 am (#110 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 7:24 am
So my point is that JKR (yet again) wrote something that is a bit contrary to what she's previously laid out for us, because she needs to do so in order to make the plot work. Maybe that's OK -- well, obviously it is. But it's just one of those little details about her style of writing that bothers me. Probably it was unavoidable given the haste in which the stories had to be churned out, and the depth of detail she went into to make her magical world as magical as it is. It's bound to be almost impossible to reconcile all those details. It just becomes irritating (for me as a reader) when we start to closely examine everything and parse everything out, and we find these incongruities. (Madam Pince)
Yes, I agree. I understand how it happened, especially with the huge rush to publish -- 6 months between finishing the manuscript (which was also finished in an incredibly brief amount of time), and the actual release of the book is way faster than is typical for any book, much less a long book that is supposed to be consistent with 6 other books, some of them quite long as well. The fact that there are numerous glitches where people do things that don't quite fit with what we've learned previously, or certain things don't work as we'd been previously led to believe they worked, isn't surprising at all.
Quinn, I personally have don't think Ron's crying is inconsistent given the incredibly stress that they'd been under. But being able to speak some Parseltongue is quite inconsistent with what JKR had revealed to us in the past regarding how one acquired the language. One might as well suggest that any of us could learn to speak to dogs just by immitating a good bark -- and that after only hearing it once.
It's similar, in a way, to Dumbledore's insistence that he can't tell Snape certain details because Snape is so close to LV, yet DD tells Harry he can reveal anything to Ron and Hermione. And who is obviously more likely to spill the information if caught? Ron or Hermione. And who does get caught and almost ends up in a position where LV could learn everthing? Ron and Hermione. So does DD's decision make any real sense in terms of sharing info to people who might reveal it later to LV? No. It's just necessary for the plot. But generally, plot decisions are supposed to also make sense and really feel right and believable to the reader. Some of the things in DH didn't seem that believable to readers who had a fairly detailed knowledge of the series.
The long and short of it is that I'm quite willing to believe that JKR did not intend for us to think that Snape ever figured out about the horcruxes, but for me, that's not really believable with the characters and situations that JKR had otherwise set up. Thankfully, since she doesn't categorically state that Snape didn't figure it out, it's possible to imagine Snape coming to the right conclusions without violating canon evidence.
Soul Search - Aug 3, 2008 7:21 am (#111 of 2988)
"So my point is that JKR (yet again) wrote something that is a bit contrary to what she's previously laid out for us, because she needs to do so in order to make the plot work." (Madam Pince)
I usually agree with this, and have suggested a few myself, but I do have to ask how much detail is necessary for the storyline and how much should we, practically, expect? Even if JKR had "Snape doesn't know about horcruxes" in her notes, did she really need to figure out a way to present that, probably unnecessary, detail?
wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2008 7:36 am (#112 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 8:37 am
Even if JKR had "Snape doesn't know about horcruxes" in her notes, did she really need to figure out a way to present that, probably unnecessary, detail? (Soul Search)
Not wanting to speak for Madam Pince, but since I did agree with her, I think that what was meant here wasn't that JKR should have written it out expressly that Snape didn't know.
JKR seems to be trying to show that Snape didn't know about the horcruxes. Okay, fine. But is that really consistent with what she'd shown about Snape's character and overall knowledge, intelligence, curiosity and creativity, not to mention the ease with which Regulus and Hermione were able to learn plenty of facts about horcruxes, the fact that Slughorn knew about them, and the fact that DD left all his books with plenty of info on the subject laying out on his office desk even knowing that Snape would probably come to the office after DD's death. The question isn't whether she should have been any more clear about Snape not knowing, but whether - clear or not - it was really believable.
Orion - Aug 3, 2008 8:30 am (#113 of 2988)
"He feels left out and betrayed even though he still keeps following DD's plan and fulfilling his promise. The way he puts the question certainly anticipates a negative answer. In this context, it would be within character for Snape not to mention what he knows or suspects despite DD's secrecy and to bitterly accept finally (?) that without the missing information, he cannot do more than what he is intended to do."
Somehow I get the impression that he doesn't accept it and that he keeps on trying to get Harry out of it alive, but I can't prove it. He manages, though, in the end.
"It's similar, in a way, to Dumbledore's insistence that he can't tell Snape certain details because Snape is so close to LV, yet DD tells Harry he can reveal anything to Ron and Hermione. And who is obviously more likely to spill the information if caught? Ron or Hermione. And who does get caught and almost ends up in a position where LV could learn everthing? Ron and Hermione."
Yes, it's infuriating, isn't it? DD can't tell his Order members anything, grown men and women, because they might get caught and tortured, but it's perfectly safe to inform three teenagers. That's one of the weakest points, IMO. Don't tell the Occlumens, tell the kids.
Solitaire - Aug 3, 2008 8:41 am (#114 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 9:42 am
One might as well suggest that any of us could learn to speak to dogs just by immitating a good bark -- and that after only hearing it once.
If you stop to think about it, Ron has heard Harry speak Parseltongue more than once. He talked to the snake in the dueling club; he talked to the tap with the snake on it Myrtle's bathroom; and he heard Harry talk to the locket. Granted the first two were 5 years ago, and I agree that it seems next to impossible that he could imitate Parselmouth well enough to open the chamber ... but not because he has heard it only once.
I'm wondering if the death of the Basilisk--since there is no longer anything in there to be called by using Parseltongue--and the weakening of Voldemort through the successive destruction of the Horcruxes could be a reason this was possible. Just a thought ...
Solitaire
Julia H. - Aug 3, 2008 8:51 am (#115 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 11:03 am
I hope you don't mind if I go back to some of the very interesting points that you discussed and I missed.
Like others, I also like Tandaradei's 12-step analogy observations (it does not really matter whether JKR intended it or not). The only fact that contradicts it is that DD, while supposedly keeping Snape away from the dark arts, willingly sends him back to the most powerful dark wizard, Voldemort himself, without worrying about any temptation Snape "the younger addict" might have to face. He also gives him the DADA job finally. It may be argued that only the more important necessities make DD decide to let Snape get close to the dark arts but then again DD does not seem even to worry about the possibility of any temptation there. (Snape could do a lot of harm in his position if he gave in to the dark arts "temptation".) However, I find it quite realistic (nearly canon) that DD thinks Snape might be tempted by the Resurrection Stone, which is why he does not mention the Stone or any of the Hallows to him.
It is an exciting question whether Snape believes in the prophecy or not. The arguments for and against are both strong and equally interesting. I will not vote either way now, only add a few thoughts.
The teenage Snape (not the budding DE but the student) has been compared to Hermione in some respects: his interest in books, his anxiety to do well at an exam, etc. Hermione soon gets disillusioned with Divination for a reason, I think, that Snape may find equally important: Divination does not seem to be an "exact science", even in terms of magic. It is very difficult to learn, you have to have an innate gift. Different people will interpret the same signs differently and even if a prophecy turns out to be true, Hermione realizes that the future can be "deduced" on the basis of present facts with at least as much success as "predicted" on the basis of mysterious signs.
Snape is particularly good at a rather exact magical science, potion-making. Here, you have to measure every ingredient, have to calculate every step in the process. Apparently, with potions, if two people do exactly the same things, they will get exactly the same results, while if one of them changes one tiny thing, the result will be different. It is very different from divination.
Dealing with curses and injuries and inventing spells are also relatively exact branches of magic: it gets very soon evident whether you have made a mistake or not. Also the way Snape reminds Harry (in OOTP) "Time and space matter in magic" emphasizes his "exact" approach to magic. I think someone with a mind like Snape's or Hermione's is likely to dismiss prophecies very soon as completely unreliable. Then what could Snape experience at school? We know, soon after Snape's graduation, DD wanted to remove the subject from the school curriculum. This implies they cannot have had very good experiences with the previous divination teacher(s) either. So Snape may have seen at school only a divination teacher who may have been unsuccessful or a fraud and a student like Snape must have realized it easily.
This would make it possible that Snape did not, initially, believe in prophecies. What did he hear during Trelawney's interview? He heard that DD was telling her he was not going to employ her. At that moment, Sybill made a prediction. To Snape it could easily seem to be a desperate attempt to persuade a future employer. He was caught and he did not know (then) that DD in the end did decide to employ Trelawney, so he could not know whether DD found the prophecy creditable or not.
So why did he rush to tell the whole thing to Voldemort? First of all I think he had to go to Voldemort anyway to report on the success of his own job interview. Obviously, there was not much to say about that apart from the fact that the interview had never taken place. Reporting you have failed to perform what you should have done seems to be an extremely dangerous thing with Voldemort. (Those who make mistakes tend to get crucio-d.) Snape obviously had to explain how it had happened, so he had to tell about the prophecy whether he believed in it or not and in fact, hearing the prediction was the only "achievement" he could mention to divert LV's attention from his failure.
This means telling Voldemort about the prophecy does not prove Snape believed in it - it does not even prove he necessarily expected Voldemort to take it very seriously. I am not sure if Voldemort took prophecies seriously (he was not an expert in this field, so he may have despised it as such) - until he heard one that concerned him most deeply and then he would rather err on the side of "caution". BTW, it is even possible that DD himself strengthened LV's belief in the prophecy when LV found out that Trelawney had indeed got the job despite DD's original intention.
So it is at least possible that Snape did not believe in the prophecy, originally. It is another question whether he believed in it later, when he saw how important it was for DD or how Harry seemed to be destined for a confrontation with Voldemort. I agree that he at least fought against this idea (consciously or not) whenever he was emphasizing how unimportant or mediocre Harry was. Still, there are signs that suggest he did not really consider Harry so "unimportant" - besides the ones that Tandaradei mentioned, there is the fact that he put his thoughts into the Pensieve during the Occlumency lessons (I mean he could resist LV's direct legilimency attacks, why would he be afraid of a mediocre trainee wizard?!) and the way he reacted when Harry called him a "coward" in HBP - though perhaps he would have reacted in a similar way if others had done that. So perhaps he was "fighting against the prophecy" in his own way, trying to keep Harry alive, since the prophecy was only about the possibility of Harry vanquishing LV. For all Snape knew, it could have happened the other way round. Then the last secret about Harry must have seemed to ultimately discredit the prophecy or to fulfill it in a way Snape never wanted it to be fulfilled.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 3, 2008 10:13 am (#116 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 11:13 am
I don't think it's a plot hole when JKR sets up how the topic of Horcruxes are not only never spoken of, but also all but impossible to find any information about. Hermione - who at least had the term and the concept to go on - by her own admission took a random chance that "accio Horcrux books" would work.
JKR explains that Regulus knew about the Locket Horcrux only because he overheard Voldemort talking about it.
Q: Voldemort never told anyone about his horcruxes, so how on earth did Regulus Black discover his secret?
J.K. Rowling: Horcrux magic was not Voldemort’s own invention; as is established in the story, other wizards had done it, though never gone as far as to make six. Voldemort dropped oblique hints; in his arrogance, he did not believe anybody would be clever enough to understand them. (He does so in the graveyard of Little Hangleton, in front of Harry). [But Snape wasn't there.] He did this before Regulus and Regulus guessed, correctly, what it was that made Voldemort so convinced he could not die. (Leaky Cauldron Chat)
Regulus grew up in a family of Dark Wizards, and was therefore far more likely than Snape (who grew up essentially in a Muggle environment, at least by comparison) to have access to information about Horcruxes.
To my mind, JKR establishes very well that Horcruxes are a rare, obscure facet of the Darkest of Dark Magic and not the kind of thing even someone who is an expert in Curses would necessarily ever have heard.
Ron's ability to remember a single word of Parseltongue - which he had observed being spoken on multiple occasions - is similarly established as possible. The Chamber of Secrets and its "monster" was only a legend after all. The reality was that anyone who knew the password ("open" spoken in Parseltongue) could get in.
*******
I go back and forth about Snape's belief in the Prophecy. Though I had earlier argued that he must have, I agree that he is far too cerebral an individual to take that sort of thing seriously. I think Julia is probably right: that Snape gave the Prophecy to Voldemort only because he had no other information to provide and likely feared the consequences of failing his mission.
Which brings up another question: Did Voldemort actually expect Dumbledore to hire Snape? Or did he know that Snape would likely "fail in his mission"? I mean, here's Snape, barely out of Hogwarts himself being sent to ask for a position that Voldemort himself had cursed. Sounds to me like Voldemort wanted Snape to fail. Which makes me wonder what Voldemort's original plans for Snape actually were.
tandaradei - Aug 3, 2008 10:50 am (#117 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 12:01 pm
Well I for one do believe Snape's arguing with Dumbledore about DD's not telling Snape everything in the HBP year is necessary, mainly because it is so unbelievably misleading for me (I was sure at the time Snape was trying to glean info for Voldemort). Jo is wicked decieving. She practically salivated over this plot bit, I believe. Disinformation for her is the "name of the game" ... and why should I, as one so decieved, want future readers to not to fail where I did, into this well-designed pot-hole from her plot?
But unfortunately, this means DD MUST therefore withold something crucial from Snape, for other overall plotlines to hold together. Concensus seems to be it would be about horcruxes; but there is a fair amount of canon to imply IMO that Snape is too close to all this, IMO for it to be the best choice of DD's withheld info. (Along witht the fact that DD left EVERY AVAILABLE book on the subject in the one place he intended Snape to reside for the next Hogwarts year -- yes, this does mean "if Heremione never thought up the accio idea.")
It may be out of place here, but I'm of a mind now Jo's best choice would rather have been to have had Snape and DD basically argue over why Dumbledore withheld Deathly Hallows info. They could have disagreed some over whether Harry must necessarily be the one and only one, to remove all final horcruxes and such; but to me a more "realistic" disagreement between these too, which got personal, would have been over Hallows implications.
Maybe, after Snape asked DD's portrait why DD still refused to say something revelatory, DD could have replied "If you really knew and followed your path from this knowledge, I believe you would commit suicide," or something such like that; and to me that might allow for both the necessary plot designs, but also for "canonical realism." Those extra few words would tell us that the horcrux stuff was a "red herring" as regards the disagreements in HBP (although, at the mo' I rather think this red herring was actually the Real McCoy.)
Madam Pince - Aug 3, 2008 10:56 am (#118 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 12:06 pm
...I do have to ask how much detail is necessary for the storyline and how much should we, practically, expect? Even if JKR had "Snape doesn't know about horcruxes" in her notes, did she really need to figure out a way to present that, probably unnecessary, detail? --Soul Search
I'm not quite sure what the question is here, but what wynnleaf said in the next post is accurate as to my thinking as well. If you're meaning "why did JKR have to go into the issue of Snape/horcruxes at all?" then I sort of agree with you, I guess. What I meant by "necessary to the plot" is what someone said earlier about the books being about Harry, and to a lesser extent Ron and Hermione -- they're not about Snape. He's a supporting character. So to have the supporting character know about the main "big secret" would seem to logically lead to him trying to do something about it, and she didn't want anyone other than Harry/Ron/Hermione doing the Big Horcrux Hunt. Thus, it's necessary that Snape not know anything about them. Does that answer the question and/or make sense? (It does in my head, but that's a muddled place most days... )
Julia, that is a very well-reasoned theory about Snape and the prophecy and whether or not he believed in it. Good job also about catching that Regulus also figured out about the horcruxes -- I had forgotten all about him for the moment. Yes, he had heard Voldemort's casual mentions and he was from a Dark Arts-oriented family, but we know nothing about his scholarly abilities and yet we know he knew enough to put two and two together. I still think it's more in Snape's character to have been able to do so as well, but I can agree to disagree with you, Quinn -- your arguments are well-reasoned and well-stated too!
DD can't tell his Order members anything, grown men and women, because they might get caught and tortured, but it's perfectly safe to inform three teenagers. That's one of the weakest points, IMO. Don't tell the Occlumens, tell the kids. --Orion
LOL! Exactly! Again, for plot purposes. The books are about the Trio, not about the Order members. Logic, schmologic. (Well, of course, one of the three teenagers is supposedly The Chosen One, sooo... but still, why not adult Order members rather than two underage wizards? I suppose because then the books wouldn't be as much fun!)
Quinn Crockett - Aug 3, 2008 11:35 am (#119 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 12:36 pm
I forgot to add before that I do actually agree that Dumbledore probably did leave the Horcrux books for Snape to find once he had assumed the position of Headmaster. However, because Snape asks what Harry needs the sword for, Portrait Dumbledore would know that Snape had never read them.
"No, I don't think so" is Dumbledore's reply when asked if he's going to tell Snape. Sounds almost as if Dumbledore had, at least momentarily, considered telling all to Snape about the Horcrux hunt; but maybe he decided that it was probably safer for Snape, who Voldemort might believe had access to his hidden treasures should something accidentally slip during Legilimency, to keep him in the dark about it.
So, Tandaradei, "Horcruxes or Hallows" eh? Yes, it seems that Dumbledore's original intention was for Snape to know about the Horcruxes - at least at some point. And I can agree with you also that Dumbledore may have assumed that if anyone would have been tempted by the Hallows (the Stone in particular), Snape would have been at the top of the list.
Orion - Aug 3, 2008 12:00 pm (#120 of 2988)
Off-topic: There was a discussion about Ron-Parseltongue already. My opinion was that obviously Parseltongue was a normal language which could be learned by anybody, or else Ron wouldn't have been able to reproduce even one word. The opinion of the other forumers was, however, that Parseltongue was a magical gift and could only be inherited by one's ancestors.
I still stick to my original opinion: If Parseltongue is a magical language that you either have or have not, then Ron cannot reproduce it, period. He doesn't only manage to say one word, but the brass tap actually obeys and opens!!! Then I must conclude that Hogwarts needs Parseltongue on its curriculum and some Parselmouth to teach it. End of off-topic subject. Ceterum censeo...
mona amon - Aug 3, 2008 10:13 pm (#121 of 2988)
Snape may or may not have known about Horcruxes. More likely that he knew. - Mona
If he knew, why did he have to ask, "So you're still not going to tell me why Potter needs the sword?" If he knew, why did he not say something when Dumbledore specifically told him that "a piece of Lord Voldemort's soul attached itself to Harry's. As long as Harry is alive and protecting that piece of Voldemort's soul, Voldemort cannot die." I mean, it doesn't really get much plainer than that; but Snape doesn't even react to this bizarre information. (Quinn)
Twenty four posts since I was last here, but anyway-
First the sword. Snape really did not know why Harry needed the sword, and was very curious about it. Even though he was a Dark Arts expert and probably knew about Horcruxes and the fact that they could be destroyed with Basilisk venom, he probably had no idea that Gryffindor's Sword was impregnated with Basilisk venom and had become an anti-Horcrux weapon. Only someone who knew about the properties of Goblin-made silver would have known that, and it's quite possible that Snape was completely clueless about goblin-made silver.
As for Snape not mentioning Horcruxes when Dumbledore tells him about the soul-bit in Harry- He may have thought to himself, "Ah! Just like a Horcrux!" but in conversation we don't usually say out loud even half the thoughts that flit through our mind. Snape was more focussed on asking Dumbledore about that part of the revelation that shocked him the most, "Does that mean that the boy has to die?"
As for where he learned it, we only know that Horcruxes were a banned subject in Hogwarts, and that Dumbledore removed all books about them from the Hogwarts library. Snape could have found out from somewhere else.
Actually we have no evidence to show whether Snape knew about Horcruxes or not. But it seems to solve the plot-hole problem if he did have a general knowledge about Horcruxes, but was ignorant of the specific information about Voldemort's Horcruxes which Dumbledore had gathered and passed on to Harry.
But Harry has to be the Hero and find out about them on his own, so let him. Snape would have found them in a tenth of the time, being a lot brighter than these kids, but it's Harry's story. (Orion)
Orion, I think JKR does a pretty good job of showing us that Harry alone could have discovered all the Horcruxes. Searching for a Horcrux was like looking for a needle in a haystack, so it was nothing to do with being brilliant. Some of it of course is pure luck, but he discovers the Tiara mostly because of being able to share Voldemort's thoughts. I feel that Dumbledore took this into account. He gives Snape the task of protecting the kids of Hogwarts as he is in a unique position to do so, and he gives Harry the task of finding the Horcruxes, trusting that his unique connection to Voldemort will help him out.
Julia H. - Aug 4, 2008 6:44 am (#122 of 2988)
Edited Aug 4, 2008 8:23 am
Which brings up another question: Did Voldemort actually expect Dumbledore to hire Snape? Or did he know that Snape would likely "fail in his mission"? I mean, here's Snape, barely out of Hogwarts himself being sent to ask for a position that Voldemort himself had cursed. Sounds to me like Voldemort wanted Snape to fail. Which makes me wonder what Voldemort's original plans for Snape actually were. (Quinn)
I have long had a hunch that Voldemort did not choose 20-year-old Snape to be his spy on DD because he had any particular reason to think that Snape would be a really great spy but because he did not regard him as truly good "DE-material" in general. Snape clearly had an academic interest in dark magic but he does not seem to have been a "practical murderer" type. He was young and probably not hardened enough and we know for example that using Unforgivables is not easy, it does not only require magical power but some psychological "readiness" as well. Pure nihilism is probably not enough. (If Snape really learned Occlumency as a reaction against Voldemort's regular Legilimency tests while he had nothing especially dangerous to hide, it may indicate a more than average level of sensitivity and/or independence of mind for a DE.) Realizing that, Voldemort would probably still try to use his young follower in some way and sending him on a lonely and sort of intellectual mission (Snape does not seem to be a real team-person and LV may have noticed it), in which he was either to succeed and "learn" or to fail alone may have seemed to be a reasonable idea. Besides, though Snape was perhaps too young to apply for a teaching position, LV's older followers may have been too well known as DE's to have any chance of being hired by DD. Snape was young and at least relatively innocent and probably not a known DE. (He may have been a new recruit, actually.) Snape failed in his mission but quite unexpectedly brought some very interesting information, which probably changed his status with LV. Later, when DD did hire him to teach potions, he seemingly proved to LV that despite his initial failure he was able to accomplish his original mission.
It is an interesting problem that the DADA position had been cursed by LV himself so he must have known the risk anybody in that job would run - which implies Snape cannot have been very important to him in those days. Earlier it was argued that LV could have lifted the curse if any of his followers had received the job but it just does not seem to have happened in HBP, when Snape did get the DADA job and was already a rather important member of LV's inner circle. Also, in OOTP, DD was willing to accept Umbridge as the DADA teacher rather than test whether LV would indeed lift the curse if Snape got the position.
Well, of course, one of the three teenagers is supposedly The Chosen One, sooo... but still, why not adult Order members rather than two underage wizards? I suppose because then the books wouldn't be as much fun! (Madam Pince)
LOL! Imagine Harry teamed up with Moody and Kingsley instead of Ron and Hermione. What kind of story would it have been?
I forgot to add before that I do actually agree that Dumbledore probably did leave the Horcrux books for Snape to find once he had assumed the position of Headmaster. However, because Snape asks what Harry needs the sword for, Portrait Dumbledore would know that Snape had never read them. (Quinn)
Yes, I also agree that it makes a lot of sense. But why, why was DD again making it so difficult? Did he want Snape to find it out gradually? And most of all, why did he change his mind when Snape did not find the books on his desk?
wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2008 8:07 am (#123 of 2988)
Yes, I also agree that it makes a lot of sense. But why, why was DD again making it so difficult? Did he want Snape to find it out gradually? And most of all, why did he change his mind when Snape did not find the books on his desk? (Julia)
Whether or not we're right about this specific point of DD leaving the books for Snape to see, I do think it was typical of DD to reveal information in a very obscure, round-about way. For instance, even when he was directly showing things to Harry in HBP, he doesn't always come right and tell him things, but instead hints at some info until Harry figures it out for himself. Whether this is the teacher in DD, or whether he just likes to hold on to info for himself so much that he has difficulty directly revealing things, we can't know, but it does seem to be a tendency.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 4, 2008 8:59 am (#124 of 2988)
If Snape knew about Horcruxes, he only knew about them in the singular. That is Voldemort made one horcrux and once that is destroyed then He can be killed. This is what Regulus believed when he wrote the note.
Therefore even if horcrux was in Snape's vocabulary he would not know that Dumbledore is hunting for many, he would think that Dumbledore is hunting for only one. This would tie into the idea that he wouldn't consider Harry capable of finding a Horcrux let alone destroy it. Presumably after Dumbledore found the Horcrux then Harry could kill Voldemort.
So when Dumbledore tells Snape that part of Voldemort's soul is in Harry, Snape doesn't have to ask if it is a Horcrux because to Snape it is a useless question. Dumbledore plainly says that Harry has to die so that Voldemort's soul gets destroyed. The idea that Voldemort has split his soul more might seem ludicrous to Snape as he would assume that a damaged soul is weaker than a whole one.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 4, 2008 9:32 am (#125 of 2988)
Edited Aug 4, 2008 10:37 am
Whether or not we're right about this specific point of DD leaving the books for Snape to see, I do think it was typical of DD to reveal information in a very obscure, round-about way. - Wynnleaf
Yes, and Dumbledore admits as much to Harry in King's Cross ("I had hoped Miss Granger would slow you up a bit"). My suggestion would be that perhaps it's something to do with Dumbledore's grand scheme, and that everything, that is everyone's specific part in it, has to be timed perfectly. Maybe he didn't want Snape to have that knowledge until Harry had had enough time to complete at least a portion of his mission, that being ... well, who knows what Dumbledore thought Harry could accomplish by that time. But perhaps it was a simple as Harry choosing the Horcruxes over the Hallows.
Anyway, to leave the books for Snape would mean that, when Harry returned to Hogwarts - and surely Dumbledore expected that Harry would, at some point, need to come back - Snape would be able to offer his illicit assistance. Perhaps Dumbledore thought Snape would even search the castle on his own for items that would have appealed to Riddle as a Horcrux. Perhaps Dumbledore thought he could either destroy them personally, or at least leave them where Harry could easily find them.
Hm... I'm just sort of brainstorming here. In any case, when Snape says, "You still aren't going to tell me..." Portrait-Dumbledore would have taken that as an indication that Snape had not read the books; and that perhaps maybe it was better that Snape didn't know about Voldemort's most vulnerable secret after all. He had already left Snape with the Elder Wand (or so he thought) without telling him. Perhaps Dumbledore figured that was enough hidden responsibility.
As I said, I'm just sort of throwing things out there.....
But I agree that sending Snape for the DADA post seems a good indication that Voldemort viewed young Severus as expendable, for whatever reason. Good point, too, that Snape may have been the forerunner of Draco Malfoy. That once he had achieved the post and was inside the school, Snape would then be assigned the task of finding a way to let the other Death Eaters in.
Quinn, if Snape figured out about LV having horcruxes, then it may not have been until after DD told him about the piece of LV's soul in Harry. As for why he would ask about the sword, that seems simple to me, in that Snape 1. wouldn't want DD to know he'd figured out about the horcruxes and 2. just knowing the horcruxes exist doesn't mean you know how they are destroyed.
As for the 12 step analogy, I think it works fairly well. We have had a number of discussions in the past about the close parallels between DD and Snape and their progression from going off in a very wrong direction in their youth, being the direct or indirect cause of the death of someone they loved, etc. So I could see this 12-step analogy working rather well.
While I doubt that JKR set up the 12-step analogy, I do think she intended there to be parallels between Snape and DD.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 2, 2008 11:24 am (#102 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 12:56 pm
1. [Snape] wouldn't want DD to know he'd figured out about the horcruxes - Why? The danger was in Voldemort finding out, not Dumbledore. Besides, Dumbledore was dead so, what was he going to do about it? Walk out of his portrait?
2. just knowing the horcruxes exist doesn't mean you know how they are destroyed. - Just like being a "dark arts expert" doesn't mean you know about Horcruxes.
I think what it really comes down to is Snape let Dumbledore do all the thinking on anything Voldemort related. Part of this was for Snape's own safety, but part of it also was probably out the notion of submitting as a way of serving his penance; doing only what he was told.
Orion - Aug 2, 2008 12:14 pm (#103 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 1:14 pm
It is extremely unlikely that Snape has never heard about Horcruxes, looking at it from a logical point of view, but logic often doesn't help you much with Rowling. IMO Rowling makes us believe that Snape doesn't know about them for plot reasons. If Snape knew about them there wouldn't be a reason for him not to go after them on his own. A naturally curious person like him wouldn't stay put in Hogwarts if he could investigate instead. But Harry has to be the Hero and find out about them on his own, so let him. Snape would have found them in a tenth of the time, being a lot brighter than these kids, but it's Harry's story.
wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2008 1:40 pm (#104 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 2:42 pm
Actually, I don't think the evidence of the books was that Snape let Dumbledore "do all the thinking" because there's a number of times where Snape clearly directly disagrees with Dumbledore. Yes, he follows Dumbledore's directives, but that doesn't mean he's not thinking for himself.
In any case, it seems almost unbelievable that a highly intelligent and creative person, as Snape was obviously shown to be, would just turn off his brain and stop thinking when a major curious problem was in front of him and directly concerned him.
The reason he wouldn't tell DD if he had figured it out is because it seems fairly clear that Snape respected DD and therefore wouldn't necessarily want to tell DD what he knew, when he knew DD was concerned about Snape (going around on LV's arm) would know to much.
As for not knowing how a specific horcrux could be destroyed somehow being on par with a Dark Arts expert who never heard of horcruxes, I disagree. The horcruxes get destroyed in numerous ways, and even Harry and Hermione seem to be able to figure out some methods (like the fiend fire). It doesn't seem to require a genius. The question in this case might have been the Sword of Gryffindor as well as the specific qualities of the horcrux. Perhaps Snape doesn't know the powers of Gryffindor's sword?
It is extremely unlikely that Snape has never heard about Horcruxes, looking at it from a logical point of view, but logic often doesn't help you much with Rowling. IMO Rowling makes us believe that Snape doesn't know about them for plot reasons. (Orion)
Yes, absolutely. These are sort of like plot holes. We're supposed to believe something that really isn't very believable, given the situations and characters she's created. She wants us to believe it for plot purposes, but it doesn't really work with what she's shown us elsewhere about the character.
Madam Pince - Aug 2, 2008 6:55 pm (#105 of 2988)
It is extremely unlikely that Snape has never heard about Horcruxes, looking at it from a logical point of view, but logic often doesn't help you much with Rowling. IMO Rowling makes us believe that Snape doesn't know about them for plot reasons. (Orion)
Yes, absolutely. These are sort of like plot holes. We're supposed to believe something that really isn't very believable, given the situations and characters she's created. She wants us to believe it for plot purposes, but it doesn't really work with what she's shown us elsewhere about the character. --wynnleaf
Agreed. One other thing that occurred to me -- if Hermione Granger (yes, admittedly the brightest witch of her age but still just a student with only 6 years of magical training) could find a way to discover what a horcrux was, then surely Snape would've been able to do it. No disrespect to Hermione, and I know Hermione had been pointed in the right direction, but really...
Solitaire - Aug 2, 2008 7:04 pm (#106 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 8:06 pm
It does seem that someone who was "up to his eyes in the Dark Arts" might be more likely to have at least heard of a Horcrux, even if he was not particularly familiar with them. Hermione probably would never have heard the word had it not been for Harry. JM2K ...
Quinn Crockett - Aug 2, 2008 8:16 pm (#107 of 2988)
Edited Aug 2, 2008 9:46 pm
Nevertheless, there is not one word in the text to suggest that Snape had any idea what Dumbledore was talking about, even when Dumbledore spells it all out for him.
Snape's specialty was in Curses, which are (apparently) inherently Dark (he came to Hogwarts knowing more curses than most 7th years); and he was also a pretty fine dab hand at Potions. But that's all we're ever given to know about his so-called expertise with Dark Arts.
Do we call it a "plot hole" when Ron opens the Chamber of Secrets using Parseltongue? Because from the way his character is written up to that point, one would never expect Ron to be clever enough to figure something like that out, let alone remember the right word if he did. Do we call it "out of character" when Ron, always so sarcastic and glib, collapses in tears? And yet he does both and we accept it unquestioningly.
In this vein, why should Snape's ignorance of Horcruxes, about which Dumbledore says, "No book would have given that information." (HBP ch. 23), be so surprising? Slughorn says, "...that's very Dark stuff, very Dark indeed." (ibid). Sounds to me like the only way anyone can even learn about it is through word of mouth - and Slughorn tells Riddle "... keep it quiet, what I've told - that is to say, what we've discussed. People wouldn't like to think we've been chatting about Horcruxes. It's a banned subject at Hogwarts, you know... Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it..." Not only is it "a banned subject", but it is so taboo that Slughorn felt the need to try to "edit" his own memory of even a mere academic conversation about it.
So Horcruxes is a subject that is all but unavailable in literature, that is considered completely taboo by all and sundry and that is banned at Hogwarts. Yet somehow Snape was supposed to have learned all about this.
From whom?
Madam Pince - Aug 2, 2008 11:49 pm (#108 of 2988)
Do we call it a "plot hole" when Ron opens the Chamber of Secrets using Parseltongue?
I do. Not because Ron is "thick," but because we have been led to believe that that skill is really rare and that inheriting the ability through bloodlines has something to do with it.
Sounds to me like the only way anyone can even learn about it is through word of mouth
No, Hermione got her information out of a book. I would think that if Hermione could get hold of such a book, then so could Snape have done. The book was in Hogwarts -- it was accessible (though certainly not easily accessible.)
I don't say Snape had learned "all about this," I only say it seems odd to me that he wouldn't have at least heard of the concept, which might have made him wonder somewhere along the line. But as you say, JKR's text does not give us one word to suggest that Snape did know.
So my point is that JKR (yet again) wrote something that is a bit contrary to what she's previously laid out for us, because she needs to do so in order to make the plot work. Maybe that's OK -- well, obviously it is. But it's just one of those little details about her style of writing that bothers me. Probably it was unavoidable given the haste in which the stories had to be churned out, and the depth of detail she went into to make her magical world as magical as it is. It's bound to be almost impossible to reconcile all those details. It just becomes irritating (for me as a reader) when we start to closely examine everything and parse everything out, and we find these incongruities.
(Please forgive me if this sounds testy -- my neighbors down the street decided to have a "last fling" with their fireworks at 3:30 a.m. so I'm a bit grumpy right now... )
Julia H. - Aug 3, 2008 6:12 am (#109 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 7:15 am
Fascinating discussion. I missed a lot! Snape knowing / not knowing about Horcruxes: I agree with those who say JKR apparently does not intend him to know about them or to take part in their destruction - for plot reasons obviously. Perhaps she wants the youngest generation to do it all alone (except for the ring, which is destroyed by DD). But I also agree that it is a bit illogical and out of character for Snape. I do think Snape is a dark arts expert: he may specialize in curses and in healing dark magic injuries but he must know about other, related fields of the dark arts as well. I guess inventing curses requires a lot of background knowledge and Snape also teaches DADA and the course probably does not concentrate on curses or healing (cf. the alternative ways of fighting dementors etc.). Even Regulus, who is not known as a dark arts expert, discovers the secret of the locket (despite DD's ban on literature concerning Horcruxes).
So, if it were not for plot reasons, it would make perfect sense for Snape to know about Horcruxes and even to help Harry destroy them since DD knows or strongly suspects that one Horcrux is inside Hogwarts. DD foresees that Hogwarts will fall into LV's grasp after his death and he wants Snape to be in charge there and he must suspect that Harry will not enter the school run by LV's government. While Snape could easily look for at least the diadem in the school, that task is for Harry, who can enter Hogwarts only with great difficulties. But Snape gets the task of giving the last piece of information to Harry, with whom he has no contact at all. Plot reasons.
Having said all that, I don't think it is expressly against canon (even if it was not JKR's intention) to find it possible that at some point, Snape understands the problem of Horcruxes; perhaps after DD has told him the last secret about Harry - not on the spot, since he is rather shocked by Harry's fate and the apparent futility of his own efforts to keep Harry alive, but later on. However, he still does not have the specific information concerning the number and the whereabouts of LV's Horcruxes, which is known only by DD and Harry. His question to DD "And you still aren't going to tell me..." can have two purposes I can think of: Either JKR wants to emphasize that Snape does not know about Harry's task (I don't know why it is important to underline this at that point) or JKR wants to show that Snape is offended or angry with DD. His way of speaking in this scene is rather different from the way he talked to DD before. He feels left out and betrayed even though he still keeps following DD's plan and fulfilling his promise. The way he puts the question certainly anticipates a negative answer. In this context, it would be within character for Snape not to mention what he knows or suspects despite DD's secrecy and to bitterly accept finally (?) that without the missing information, he cannot do more than what he is intended to do.
wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2008 6:19 am (#110 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 7:24 am
So my point is that JKR (yet again) wrote something that is a bit contrary to what she's previously laid out for us, because she needs to do so in order to make the plot work. Maybe that's OK -- well, obviously it is. But it's just one of those little details about her style of writing that bothers me. Probably it was unavoidable given the haste in which the stories had to be churned out, and the depth of detail she went into to make her magical world as magical as it is. It's bound to be almost impossible to reconcile all those details. It just becomes irritating (for me as a reader) when we start to closely examine everything and parse everything out, and we find these incongruities. (Madam Pince)
Yes, I agree. I understand how it happened, especially with the huge rush to publish -- 6 months between finishing the manuscript (which was also finished in an incredibly brief amount of time), and the actual release of the book is way faster than is typical for any book, much less a long book that is supposed to be consistent with 6 other books, some of them quite long as well. The fact that there are numerous glitches where people do things that don't quite fit with what we've learned previously, or certain things don't work as we'd been previously led to believe they worked, isn't surprising at all.
Quinn, I personally have don't think Ron's crying is inconsistent given the incredibly stress that they'd been under. But being able to speak some Parseltongue is quite inconsistent with what JKR had revealed to us in the past regarding how one acquired the language. One might as well suggest that any of us could learn to speak to dogs just by immitating a good bark -- and that after only hearing it once.
It's similar, in a way, to Dumbledore's insistence that he can't tell Snape certain details because Snape is so close to LV, yet DD tells Harry he can reveal anything to Ron and Hermione. And who is obviously more likely to spill the information if caught? Ron or Hermione. And who does get caught and almost ends up in a position where LV could learn everthing? Ron and Hermione. So does DD's decision make any real sense in terms of sharing info to people who might reveal it later to LV? No. It's just necessary for the plot. But generally, plot decisions are supposed to also make sense and really feel right and believable to the reader. Some of the things in DH didn't seem that believable to readers who had a fairly detailed knowledge of the series.
The long and short of it is that I'm quite willing to believe that JKR did not intend for us to think that Snape ever figured out about the horcruxes, but for me, that's not really believable with the characters and situations that JKR had otherwise set up. Thankfully, since she doesn't categorically state that Snape didn't figure it out, it's possible to imagine Snape coming to the right conclusions without violating canon evidence.
Soul Search - Aug 3, 2008 7:21 am (#111 of 2988)
"So my point is that JKR (yet again) wrote something that is a bit contrary to what she's previously laid out for us, because she needs to do so in order to make the plot work." (Madam Pince)
I usually agree with this, and have suggested a few myself, but I do have to ask how much detail is necessary for the storyline and how much should we, practically, expect? Even if JKR had "Snape doesn't know about horcruxes" in her notes, did she really need to figure out a way to present that, probably unnecessary, detail?
wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2008 7:36 am (#112 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 8:37 am
Even if JKR had "Snape doesn't know about horcruxes" in her notes, did she really need to figure out a way to present that, probably unnecessary, detail? (Soul Search)
Not wanting to speak for Madam Pince, but since I did agree with her, I think that what was meant here wasn't that JKR should have written it out expressly that Snape didn't know.
JKR seems to be trying to show that Snape didn't know about the horcruxes. Okay, fine. But is that really consistent with what she'd shown about Snape's character and overall knowledge, intelligence, curiosity and creativity, not to mention the ease with which Regulus and Hermione were able to learn plenty of facts about horcruxes, the fact that Slughorn knew about them, and the fact that DD left all his books with plenty of info on the subject laying out on his office desk even knowing that Snape would probably come to the office after DD's death. The question isn't whether she should have been any more clear about Snape not knowing, but whether - clear or not - it was really believable.
Orion - Aug 3, 2008 8:30 am (#113 of 2988)
"He feels left out and betrayed even though he still keeps following DD's plan and fulfilling his promise. The way he puts the question certainly anticipates a negative answer. In this context, it would be within character for Snape not to mention what he knows or suspects despite DD's secrecy and to bitterly accept finally (?) that without the missing information, he cannot do more than what he is intended to do."
Somehow I get the impression that he doesn't accept it and that he keeps on trying to get Harry out of it alive, but I can't prove it. He manages, though, in the end.
"It's similar, in a way, to Dumbledore's insistence that he can't tell Snape certain details because Snape is so close to LV, yet DD tells Harry he can reveal anything to Ron and Hermione. And who is obviously more likely to spill the information if caught? Ron or Hermione. And who does get caught and almost ends up in a position where LV could learn everthing? Ron and Hermione."
Yes, it's infuriating, isn't it? DD can't tell his Order members anything, grown men and women, because they might get caught and tortured, but it's perfectly safe to inform three teenagers. That's one of the weakest points, IMO. Don't tell the Occlumens, tell the kids.
Solitaire - Aug 3, 2008 8:41 am (#114 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 9:42 am
One might as well suggest that any of us could learn to speak to dogs just by immitating a good bark -- and that after only hearing it once.
If you stop to think about it, Ron has heard Harry speak Parseltongue more than once. He talked to the snake in the dueling club; he talked to the tap with the snake on it Myrtle's bathroom; and he heard Harry talk to the locket. Granted the first two were 5 years ago, and I agree that it seems next to impossible that he could imitate Parselmouth well enough to open the chamber ... but not because he has heard it only once.
I'm wondering if the death of the Basilisk--since there is no longer anything in there to be called by using Parseltongue--and the weakening of Voldemort through the successive destruction of the Horcruxes could be a reason this was possible. Just a thought ...
Solitaire
Julia H. - Aug 3, 2008 8:51 am (#115 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 11:03 am
I hope you don't mind if I go back to some of the very interesting points that you discussed and I missed.
Like others, I also like Tandaradei's 12-step analogy observations (it does not really matter whether JKR intended it or not). The only fact that contradicts it is that DD, while supposedly keeping Snape away from the dark arts, willingly sends him back to the most powerful dark wizard, Voldemort himself, without worrying about any temptation Snape "the younger addict" might have to face. He also gives him the DADA job finally. It may be argued that only the more important necessities make DD decide to let Snape get close to the dark arts but then again DD does not seem even to worry about the possibility of any temptation there. (Snape could do a lot of harm in his position if he gave in to the dark arts "temptation".) However, I find it quite realistic (nearly canon) that DD thinks Snape might be tempted by the Resurrection Stone, which is why he does not mention the Stone or any of the Hallows to him.
It is an exciting question whether Snape believes in the prophecy or not. The arguments for and against are both strong and equally interesting. I will not vote either way now, only add a few thoughts.
The teenage Snape (not the budding DE but the student) has been compared to Hermione in some respects: his interest in books, his anxiety to do well at an exam, etc. Hermione soon gets disillusioned with Divination for a reason, I think, that Snape may find equally important: Divination does not seem to be an "exact science", even in terms of magic. It is very difficult to learn, you have to have an innate gift. Different people will interpret the same signs differently and even if a prophecy turns out to be true, Hermione realizes that the future can be "deduced" on the basis of present facts with at least as much success as "predicted" on the basis of mysterious signs.
Snape is particularly good at a rather exact magical science, potion-making. Here, you have to measure every ingredient, have to calculate every step in the process. Apparently, with potions, if two people do exactly the same things, they will get exactly the same results, while if one of them changes one tiny thing, the result will be different. It is very different from divination.
Dealing with curses and injuries and inventing spells are also relatively exact branches of magic: it gets very soon evident whether you have made a mistake or not. Also the way Snape reminds Harry (in OOTP) "Time and space matter in magic" emphasizes his "exact" approach to magic. I think someone with a mind like Snape's or Hermione's is likely to dismiss prophecies very soon as completely unreliable. Then what could Snape experience at school? We know, soon after Snape's graduation, DD wanted to remove the subject from the school curriculum. This implies they cannot have had very good experiences with the previous divination teacher(s) either. So Snape may have seen at school only a divination teacher who may have been unsuccessful or a fraud and a student like Snape must have realized it easily.
This would make it possible that Snape did not, initially, believe in prophecies. What did he hear during Trelawney's interview? He heard that DD was telling her he was not going to employ her. At that moment, Sybill made a prediction. To Snape it could easily seem to be a desperate attempt to persuade a future employer. He was caught and he did not know (then) that DD in the end did decide to employ Trelawney, so he could not know whether DD found the prophecy creditable or not.
So why did he rush to tell the whole thing to Voldemort? First of all I think he had to go to Voldemort anyway to report on the success of his own job interview. Obviously, there was not much to say about that apart from the fact that the interview had never taken place. Reporting you have failed to perform what you should have done seems to be an extremely dangerous thing with Voldemort. (Those who make mistakes tend to get crucio-d.) Snape obviously had to explain how it had happened, so he had to tell about the prophecy whether he believed in it or not and in fact, hearing the prediction was the only "achievement" he could mention to divert LV's attention from his failure.
This means telling Voldemort about the prophecy does not prove Snape believed in it - it does not even prove he necessarily expected Voldemort to take it very seriously. I am not sure if Voldemort took prophecies seriously (he was not an expert in this field, so he may have despised it as such) - until he heard one that concerned him most deeply and then he would rather err on the side of "caution". BTW, it is even possible that DD himself strengthened LV's belief in the prophecy when LV found out that Trelawney had indeed got the job despite DD's original intention.
So it is at least possible that Snape did not believe in the prophecy, originally. It is another question whether he believed in it later, when he saw how important it was for DD or how Harry seemed to be destined for a confrontation with Voldemort. I agree that he at least fought against this idea (consciously or not) whenever he was emphasizing how unimportant or mediocre Harry was. Still, there are signs that suggest he did not really consider Harry so "unimportant" - besides the ones that Tandaradei mentioned, there is the fact that he put his thoughts into the Pensieve during the Occlumency lessons (I mean he could resist LV's direct legilimency attacks, why would he be afraid of a mediocre trainee wizard?!) and the way he reacted when Harry called him a "coward" in HBP - though perhaps he would have reacted in a similar way if others had done that. So perhaps he was "fighting against the prophecy" in his own way, trying to keep Harry alive, since the prophecy was only about the possibility of Harry vanquishing LV. For all Snape knew, it could have happened the other way round. Then the last secret about Harry must have seemed to ultimately discredit the prophecy or to fulfill it in a way Snape never wanted it to be fulfilled.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 3, 2008 10:13 am (#116 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 11:13 am
I don't think it's a plot hole when JKR sets up how the topic of Horcruxes are not only never spoken of, but also all but impossible to find any information about. Hermione - who at least had the term and the concept to go on - by her own admission took a random chance that "accio Horcrux books" would work.
JKR explains that Regulus knew about the Locket Horcrux only because he overheard Voldemort talking about it.
Q: Voldemort never told anyone about his horcruxes, so how on earth did Regulus Black discover his secret?
J.K. Rowling: Horcrux magic was not Voldemort’s own invention; as is established in the story, other wizards had done it, though never gone as far as to make six. Voldemort dropped oblique hints; in his arrogance, he did not believe anybody would be clever enough to understand them. (He does so in the graveyard of Little Hangleton, in front of Harry). [But Snape wasn't there.] He did this before Regulus and Regulus guessed, correctly, what it was that made Voldemort so convinced he could not die. (Leaky Cauldron Chat)
Regulus grew up in a family of Dark Wizards, and was therefore far more likely than Snape (who grew up essentially in a Muggle environment, at least by comparison) to have access to information about Horcruxes.
To my mind, JKR establishes very well that Horcruxes are a rare, obscure facet of the Darkest of Dark Magic and not the kind of thing even someone who is an expert in Curses would necessarily ever have heard.
Ron's ability to remember a single word of Parseltongue - which he had observed being spoken on multiple occasions - is similarly established as possible. The Chamber of Secrets and its "monster" was only a legend after all. The reality was that anyone who knew the password ("open" spoken in Parseltongue) could get in.
*******
I go back and forth about Snape's belief in the Prophecy. Though I had earlier argued that he must have, I agree that he is far too cerebral an individual to take that sort of thing seriously. I think Julia is probably right: that Snape gave the Prophecy to Voldemort only because he had no other information to provide and likely feared the consequences of failing his mission.
Which brings up another question: Did Voldemort actually expect Dumbledore to hire Snape? Or did he know that Snape would likely "fail in his mission"? I mean, here's Snape, barely out of Hogwarts himself being sent to ask for a position that Voldemort himself had cursed. Sounds to me like Voldemort wanted Snape to fail. Which makes me wonder what Voldemort's original plans for Snape actually were.
tandaradei - Aug 3, 2008 10:50 am (#117 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 12:01 pm
Well I for one do believe Snape's arguing with Dumbledore about DD's not telling Snape everything in the HBP year is necessary, mainly because it is so unbelievably misleading for me (I was sure at the time Snape was trying to glean info for Voldemort). Jo is wicked decieving. She practically salivated over this plot bit, I believe. Disinformation for her is the "name of the game" ... and why should I, as one so decieved, want future readers to not to fail where I did, into this well-designed pot-hole from her plot?
But unfortunately, this means DD MUST therefore withold something crucial from Snape, for other overall plotlines to hold together. Concensus seems to be it would be about horcruxes; but there is a fair amount of canon to imply IMO that Snape is too close to all this, IMO for it to be the best choice of DD's withheld info. (Along witht the fact that DD left EVERY AVAILABLE book on the subject in the one place he intended Snape to reside for the next Hogwarts year -- yes, this does mean "if Heremione never thought up the accio idea.")
It may be out of place here, but I'm of a mind now Jo's best choice would rather have been to have had Snape and DD basically argue over why Dumbledore withheld Deathly Hallows info. They could have disagreed some over whether Harry must necessarily be the one and only one, to remove all final horcruxes and such; but to me a more "realistic" disagreement between these too, which got personal, would have been over Hallows implications.
Maybe, after Snape asked DD's portrait why DD still refused to say something revelatory, DD could have replied "If you really knew and followed your path from this knowledge, I believe you would commit suicide," or something such like that; and to me that might allow for both the necessary plot designs, but also for "canonical realism." Those extra few words would tell us that the horcrux stuff was a "red herring" as regards the disagreements in HBP (although, at the mo' I rather think this red herring was actually the Real McCoy.)
Madam Pince - Aug 3, 2008 10:56 am (#118 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 12:06 pm
...I do have to ask how much detail is necessary for the storyline and how much should we, practically, expect? Even if JKR had "Snape doesn't know about horcruxes" in her notes, did she really need to figure out a way to present that, probably unnecessary, detail? --Soul Search
I'm not quite sure what the question is here, but what wynnleaf said in the next post is accurate as to my thinking as well. If you're meaning "why did JKR have to go into the issue of Snape/horcruxes at all?" then I sort of agree with you, I guess. What I meant by "necessary to the plot" is what someone said earlier about the books being about Harry, and to a lesser extent Ron and Hermione -- they're not about Snape. He's a supporting character. So to have the supporting character know about the main "big secret" would seem to logically lead to him trying to do something about it, and she didn't want anyone other than Harry/Ron/Hermione doing the Big Horcrux Hunt. Thus, it's necessary that Snape not know anything about them. Does that answer the question and/or make sense? (It does in my head, but that's a muddled place most days... )
Julia, that is a very well-reasoned theory about Snape and the prophecy and whether or not he believed in it. Good job also about catching that Regulus also figured out about the horcruxes -- I had forgotten all about him for the moment. Yes, he had heard Voldemort's casual mentions and he was from a Dark Arts-oriented family, but we know nothing about his scholarly abilities and yet we know he knew enough to put two and two together. I still think it's more in Snape's character to have been able to do so as well, but I can agree to disagree with you, Quinn -- your arguments are well-reasoned and well-stated too!
DD can't tell his Order members anything, grown men and women, because they might get caught and tortured, but it's perfectly safe to inform three teenagers. That's one of the weakest points, IMO. Don't tell the Occlumens, tell the kids. --Orion
LOL! Exactly! Again, for plot purposes. The books are about the Trio, not about the Order members. Logic, schmologic. (Well, of course, one of the three teenagers is supposedly The Chosen One, sooo... but still, why not adult Order members rather than two underage wizards? I suppose because then the books wouldn't be as much fun!)
Quinn Crockett - Aug 3, 2008 11:35 am (#119 of 2988)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 12:36 pm
I forgot to add before that I do actually agree that Dumbledore probably did leave the Horcrux books for Snape to find once he had assumed the position of Headmaster. However, because Snape asks what Harry needs the sword for, Portrait Dumbledore would know that Snape had never read them.
"No, I don't think so" is Dumbledore's reply when asked if he's going to tell Snape. Sounds almost as if Dumbledore had, at least momentarily, considered telling all to Snape about the Horcrux hunt; but maybe he decided that it was probably safer for Snape, who Voldemort might believe had access to his hidden treasures should something accidentally slip during Legilimency, to keep him in the dark about it.
So, Tandaradei, "Horcruxes or Hallows" eh? Yes, it seems that Dumbledore's original intention was for Snape to know about the Horcruxes - at least at some point. And I can agree with you also that Dumbledore may have assumed that if anyone would have been tempted by the Hallows (the Stone in particular), Snape would have been at the top of the list.
Orion - Aug 3, 2008 12:00 pm (#120 of 2988)
Off-topic: There was a discussion about Ron-Parseltongue already. My opinion was that obviously Parseltongue was a normal language which could be learned by anybody, or else Ron wouldn't have been able to reproduce even one word. The opinion of the other forumers was, however, that Parseltongue was a magical gift and could only be inherited by one's ancestors.
I still stick to my original opinion: If Parseltongue is a magical language that you either have or have not, then Ron cannot reproduce it, period. He doesn't only manage to say one word, but the brass tap actually obeys and opens!!! Then I must conclude that Hogwarts needs Parseltongue on its curriculum and some Parselmouth to teach it. End of off-topic subject. Ceterum censeo...
mona amon - Aug 3, 2008 10:13 pm (#121 of 2988)
Snape may or may not have known about Horcruxes. More likely that he knew. - Mona
If he knew, why did he have to ask, "So you're still not going to tell me why Potter needs the sword?" If he knew, why did he not say something when Dumbledore specifically told him that "a piece of Lord Voldemort's soul attached itself to Harry's. As long as Harry is alive and protecting that piece of Voldemort's soul, Voldemort cannot die." I mean, it doesn't really get much plainer than that; but Snape doesn't even react to this bizarre information. (Quinn)
Twenty four posts since I was last here, but anyway-
First the sword. Snape really did not know why Harry needed the sword, and was very curious about it. Even though he was a Dark Arts expert and probably knew about Horcruxes and the fact that they could be destroyed with Basilisk venom, he probably had no idea that Gryffindor's Sword was impregnated with Basilisk venom and had become an anti-Horcrux weapon. Only someone who knew about the properties of Goblin-made silver would have known that, and it's quite possible that Snape was completely clueless about goblin-made silver.
As for Snape not mentioning Horcruxes when Dumbledore tells him about the soul-bit in Harry- He may have thought to himself, "Ah! Just like a Horcrux!" but in conversation we don't usually say out loud even half the thoughts that flit through our mind. Snape was more focussed on asking Dumbledore about that part of the revelation that shocked him the most, "Does that mean that the boy has to die?"
As for where he learned it, we only know that Horcruxes were a banned subject in Hogwarts, and that Dumbledore removed all books about them from the Hogwarts library. Snape could have found out from somewhere else.
Actually we have no evidence to show whether Snape knew about Horcruxes or not. But it seems to solve the plot-hole problem if he did have a general knowledge about Horcruxes, but was ignorant of the specific information about Voldemort's Horcruxes which Dumbledore had gathered and passed on to Harry.
But Harry has to be the Hero and find out about them on his own, so let him. Snape would have found them in a tenth of the time, being a lot brighter than these kids, but it's Harry's story. (Orion)
Orion, I think JKR does a pretty good job of showing us that Harry alone could have discovered all the Horcruxes. Searching for a Horcrux was like looking for a needle in a haystack, so it was nothing to do with being brilliant. Some of it of course is pure luck, but he discovers the Tiara mostly because of being able to share Voldemort's thoughts. I feel that Dumbledore took this into account. He gives Snape the task of protecting the kids of Hogwarts as he is in a unique position to do so, and he gives Harry the task of finding the Horcruxes, trusting that his unique connection to Voldemort will help him out.
Julia H. - Aug 4, 2008 6:44 am (#122 of 2988)
Edited Aug 4, 2008 8:23 am
Which brings up another question: Did Voldemort actually expect Dumbledore to hire Snape? Or did he know that Snape would likely "fail in his mission"? I mean, here's Snape, barely out of Hogwarts himself being sent to ask for a position that Voldemort himself had cursed. Sounds to me like Voldemort wanted Snape to fail. Which makes me wonder what Voldemort's original plans for Snape actually were. (Quinn)
I have long had a hunch that Voldemort did not choose 20-year-old Snape to be his spy on DD because he had any particular reason to think that Snape would be a really great spy but because he did not regard him as truly good "DE-material" in general. Snape clearly had an academic interest in dark magic but he does not seem to have been a "practical murderer" type. He was young and probably not hardened enough and we know for example that using Unforgivables is not easy, it does not only require magical power but some psychological "readiness" as well. Pure nihilism is probably not enough. (If Snape really learned Occlumency as a reaction against Voldemort's regular Legilimency tests while he had nothing especially dangerous to hide, it may indicate a more than average level of sensitivity and/or independence of mind for a DE.) Realizing that, Voldemort would probably still try to use his young follower in some way and sending him on a lonely and sort of intellectual mission (Snape does not seem to be a real team-person and LV may have noticed it), in which he was either to succeed and "learn" or to fail alone may have seemed to be a reasonable idea. Besides, though Snape was perhaps too young to apply for a teaching position, LV's older followers may have been too well known as DE's to have any chance of being hired by DD. Snape was young and at least relatively innocent and probably not a known DE. (He may have been a new recruit, actually.) Snape failed in his mission but quite unexpectedly brought some very interesting information, which probably changed his status with LV. Later, when DD did hire him to teach potions, he seemingly proved to LV that despite his initial failure he was able to accomplish his original mission.
It is an interesting problem that the DADA position had been cursed by LV himself so he must have known the risk anybody in that job would run - which implies Snape cannot have been very important to him in those days. Earlier it was argued that LV could have lifted the curse if any of his followers had received the job but it just does not seem to have happened in HBP, when Snape did get the DADA job and was already a rather important member of LV's inner circle. Also, in OOTP, DD was willing to accept Umbridge as the DADA teacher rather than test whether LV would indeed lift the curse if Snape got the position.
Well, of course, one of the three teenagers is supposedly The Chosen One, sooo... but still, why not adult Order members rather than two underage wizards? I suppose because then the books wouldn't be as much fun! (Madam Pince)
LOL! Imagine Harry teamed up with Moody and Kingsley instead of Ron and Hermione. What kind of story would it have been?
I forgot to add before that I do actually agree that Dumbledore probably did leave the Horcrux books for Snape to find once he had assumed the position of Headmaster. However, because Snape asks what Harry needs the sword for, Portrait Dumbledore would know that Snape had never read them. (Quinn)
Yes, I also agree that it makes a lot of sense. But why, why was DD again making it so difficult? Did he want Snape to find it out gradually? And most of all, why did he change his mind when Snape did not find the books on his desk?
wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2008 8:07 am (#123 of 2988)
Yes, I also agree that it makes a lot of sense. But why, why was DD again making it so difficult? Did he want Snape to find it out gradually? And most of all, why did he change his mind when Snape did not find the books on his desk? (Julia)
Whether or not we're right about this specific point of DD leaving the books for Snape to see, I do think it was typical of DD to reveal information in a very obscure, round-about way. For instance, even when he was directly showing things to Harry in HBP, he doesn't always come right and tell him things, but instead hints at some info until Harry figures it out for himself. Whether this is the teacher in DD, or whether he just likes to hold on to info for himself so much that he has difficulty directly revealing things, we can't know, but it does seem to be a tendency.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 4, 2008 8:59 am (#124 of 2988)
If Snape knew about Horcruxes, he only knew about them in the singular. That is Voldemort made one horcrux and once that is destroyed then He can be killed. This is what Regulus believed when he wrote the note.
Therefore even if horcrux was in Snape's vocabulary he would not know that Dumbledore is hunting for many, he would think that Dumbledore is hunting for only one. This would tie into the idea that he wouldn't consider Harry capable of finding a Horcrux let alone destroy it. Presumably after Dumbledore found the Horcrux then Harry could kill Voldemort.
So when Dumbledore tells Snape that part of Voldemort's soul is in Harry, Snape doesn't have to ask if it is a Horcrux because to Snape it is a useless question. Dumbledore plainly says that Harry has to die so that Voldemort's soul gets destroyed. The idea that Voldemort has split his soul more might seem ludicrous to Snape as he would assume that a damaged soul is weaker than a whole one.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 4, 2008 9:32 am (#125 of 2988)
Edited Aug 4, 2008 10:37 am
Whether or not we're right about this specific point of DD leaving the books for Snape to see, I do think it was typical of DD to reveal information in a very obscure, round-about way. - Wynnleaf
Yes, and Dumbledore admits as much to Harry in King's Cross ("I had hoped Miss Granger would slow you up a bit"). My suggestion would be that perhaps it's something to do with Dumbledore's grand scheme, and that everything, that is everyone's specific part in it, has to be timed perfectly. Maybe he didn't want Snape to have that knowledge until Harry had had enough time to complete at least a portion of his mission, that being ... well, who knows what Dumbledore thought Harry could accomplish by that time. But perhaps it was a simple as Harry choosing the Horcruxes over the Hallows.
Anyway, to leave the books for Snape would mean that, when Harry returned to Hogwarts - and surely Dumbledore expected that Harry would, at some point, need to come back - Snape would be able to offer his illicit assistance. Perhaps Dumbledore thought Snape would even search the castle on his own for items that would have appealed to Riddle as a Horcrux. Perhaps Dumbledore thought he could either destroy them personally, or at least leave them where Harry could easily find them.
Hm... I'm just sort of brainstorming here. In any case, when Snape says, "You still aren't going to tell me..." Portrait-Dumbledore would have taken that as an indication that Snape had not read the books; and that perhaps maybe it was better that Snape didn't know about Voldemort's most vulnerable secret after all. He had already left Snape with the Elder Wand (or so he thought) without telling him. Perhaps Dumbledore figured that was enough hidden responsibility.
As I said, I'm just sort of throwing things out there.....
But I agree that sending Snape for the DADA post seems a good indication that Voldemort viewed young Severus as expendable, for whatever reason. Good point, too, that Snape may have been the forerunner of Draco Malfoy. That once he had achieved the post and was inside the school, Snape would then be assigned the task of finding a way to let the other Death Eaters in.
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Madam Pince - Aug 4, 2008 10:29 am (#126 of 2988)
Edited Aug 4, 2008 11:31 am
I think Voldemort views pretty much anybody as expendable. I like the idea of Snape as a forerunner of Draco. Voldmort knew Snape was likely to "come over to the dark side" because he was a loner, disliked by his peers -- perfect prey for a "cult," as it were. So he recruited him to seek the DADA post. Draco was the opposite -- he had fawning acolytes -- but still Draco yearned for even more recognition, like young Snape.
I wonder if that's why Snape sort of took Draco under his wing -- did he see himself in Draco? Or was it just part of the "front" so he'd be "in" with Lucius and the other DEs?
Orion - Aug 4, 2008 12:06 pm (#127 of 2988)
Draco is quite the opposite of Teensev, so IMO Snape's favouritism is an act, at least a big part of it. A little part of it is personal acquaintance. Snape went in and out of Lucius' house and simply knew the boy. Draco is a rich kid with two bodyguards and an admiring girl, so he is practically the Slytherin James.
Julia H. - Aug 4, 2008 12:45 pm (#128 of 2988)
Edited Aug 4, 2008 1:47 pm
Well, as Orion says, Draco is quite the opposite of "Teensev" except in one respect: Draco, like Snape before him, is blindly and without truly understanding the whole picture gets attracted to the wrong side and ruins his life with nobody to stop him. Draco, like Snape before him, loses without gaining anything and he, too, has to face bitter disappointment in the end. Snape, who may well know Draco better than the other students, can probably see how this is happening to him and in this one respect, he may see himself in Draco and feel sorry for him.
Madam Pince - Aug 6, 2008 5:16 am (#129 of 2988)
That's how I see it, Julia. Plus, I think both Draco and teenaged Severus were hungry for recognition. (Draco had more recognition than Severus to begin with, but I think he still yearned for more.)
Quinn Crockett - Aug 6, 2008 9:44 am (#130 of 2988)
I don't think Snape has ever "felt sorry" for anyone in his life - except himself. He may wish to mentor Draco purely out of understanding exactly what happens to young men who sign on with Voldemort.
PeskyPixie - Aug 6, 2008 10:28 am (#131 of 2988)
Edited Aug 6, 2008 11:28 am
I wouldn't have believed him to have been capable of romantic love, but there you are!
Julia H. - Aug 6, 2008 11:12 am (#132 of 2988)
Edited Aug 6, 2008 12:14 pm
To me, the distinction between "feeling sorry for Draco" and "understanding his situation wanting to help (mentor) him" seems to be extremely subtle. I am quite ready to say: "he may see himself in Draco and understanding exactly what happens to young men who sign on with Voldemort, he wishes to mentor him".
Orion - Aug 6, 2008 11:25 am (#133 of 2988)
Hmm. What if he detests Draco? The snotty rich pureblood bodyguard-armoured sucking up arrogant death nibbler Voldie-praising moron who shows his true colours as soon his "mentor" is expendable? Snape puts up a good act, IMO, and feels responsible for Draco as far as DD's orders go, but that's it.
PeskyPixie - Aug 6, 2008 11:51 am (#134 of 2988)
Edited Aug 6, 2008 12:51 pm
Ah, but as Quinn says, Severus doesn't feel sorry for anyone other than himself ... or does he?
Orion - Aug 6, 2008 11:58 am (#135 of 2988)
No.
Julia H. - Aug 6, 2008 1:28 pm (#136 of 2988)
Edited Aug 6, 2008 2:32 pm
He calls him / refers to him as Malfoy in the first three books. He does not mention his name in GoF. In OotP, which means after Voldemort's return, he calls him Draco and I think he will call him Draco and refer to him as Draco from that moment on (even in his conversation with DD).
But I suppose we can interpret this as we like.
wynnleaf - Aug 6, 2008 8:16 pm (#137 of 2988)
I don't think we know enough to tell whether Snape's concern for Draco is anything above what he might have for any student, given the situation. "Feel sorry for" isn't a phrase I'd use to describe Snape's apparent concern for other students, nor for Draco. However, here are a few examples of his concern - or at least indicators that he was probably concerned for particular students in particular situations:
1. His whitened knuckles over a chair when he heard that Ginny had been taken by "Slytherin's monster".
2. His very pale face moments after seeing Harry's memory of the dead Cedric.
3. His dash through the castle in his nightshirt (passing his office which had been broken into), after hearing the opened egg - which sounded like someone screaming.
4. His dash into the toilet, with no apparent regard for his own safety, when Myrtle came out yelling "murder!"
5. His reassurances to Draco that they might be able to avoid scarring after the Sectumsempra episode.
6. His carefulness in placing the injured onto stretchers at the end of POA (when neither Lupin or Sirius seemed to have any such concern for the injured a bit earlier).
7. His efforts during HBP to get Crabbe and Goyle to do better in classes and, I think, pass OWLs that they'd apparently failed the year before.
8. His protection of Neville, Luna, and Ginny in DH.
I don't know if any of these things were because Snape felt "sorry" (shall we call that "sympathy?") for the kids in those positions, but I would definitely say that he appears to have been quite concerned for them.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 6, 2008 10:14 pm (#138 of 2988)
Edited Aug 6, 2008 11:17 pm
From a discussion on the Lucius Malfoy Thread:
And in my reading of the passage, Snape is actually surprised that he should be required to give something in return, and only offers "anything" because he doesn't really know what else to say. (Quinn)
You do not seem to see that Snape's going to DD, giving away vital info about a major goal of Voldemort's to LV's prime enemy, and going against LV's specific wishes, was doing anything at all. - Yeah, that's right.
It's as though you only look at Snape's actions against LV - those actions that show far more than just regret - as starting after DD asks something of Snape. - "Far more than just regret"? How so? We're talking about a guy who was happy to let an infant be murdered as long as it meant the girl he was once close to, but who had dumped him years ago, could be saved. In my view that's "not even regret" not "far more than".
But as to the rest of it: yeah, that's right.
One might assume, from this notion, that DD set out to find Snape and pump him for info and that it was all DD's doing until he asked Snape what he'd be willing to do. - I suppose one might assume that, but personally I don't find that to be a logical conclusion.
Instead, it is Snape taking the initiative to do far more than just regret his actions. He goes against LV, betrays him to his greatest enemy, asks DD to meet him, and hands over the vital information. - Yes, but only because there was something in it for him.
Then DD asks what will you give. DD might as well have said, "What more will you do." Because Snape had already started to do things. - Apparently Dumbledore didn't think so either, hence his question.
Another point is that there are only moments between the point of Snape possibly leaving the scene without promising any more help to DD, and DD's question and Snape's response of "anything". Snape didn't go through some huge paradigm shift at the moment DD asked that question. He had already reached the point of being ready to do anything to change the outcome of his actions. It just took DD asking it of him to put him in a position of actually doing something more than he'd already done. - Sorry, I've read this paragraph several times and I still don't understand what you mean, here.
Orion - Aug 7, 2008 3:13 am (#139 of 2988)
"Severus doesn't feel sorry for anyone other than himself..." (Quinn via PP) I'm perfectly happy with that because first of all Snape is also the only one I feel sorry for, and second, he is a Slytherin after all.
Madam Pince - Aug 7, 2008 5:17 am (#140 of 2988)
Excellent list of examples, wynnleaf.
I'm not sure I'd use the phrase "feel sorry for" either, but I think it's clear he's concerned for the welfare of his students. My thinking was just that he might see the path down which Draco is heading because of his own previous experiences, and he is perhaps trying to look out for him because of that.
(Orion, I feel sorry for Snape, too. I tend to feel sorry for people who are stuck in a bad position that is not really of their own making. So for that reason, though, Snape isn't the only one I feel sorry for -- Harry fits that bill pretty well, too. But Harry managed to work his way though it because of love, which it seems Snape was unable to have. )
wynnleaf - Aug 7, 2008 5:23 am (#141 of 2988)
Edited Aug 7, 2008 6:28 am
You do not seem to see that Snape's going to DD, giving away vital info about a major goal of Voldemort's to LV's prime enemy, and going against LV's specific wishes, was doing anything at all. (wynnleaf)
Yeah, that's right. (Quinn)
But that makes no sense. What is it, if it's not "doing" something? Risking LV finding out that he's taking vital info to the enemy is nothing? Risking possible capture by DD and from there to imprisonment is nothing?
Frankly, as long as you see someone risking their life to try to change the outcome of their own actions as nothing at all, I don't see how we can get anywhere in discussion, because it seems utterly illogical to me.
"Far more than just regret"? How so? We're talking about a guy who was happy to let an infant be murdered as long as it meant the girl he was once close to, but who had dumped him years ago, could be saved. In my view that's "not even regret" not "far more than". (Quinn)
Where do you get " happy to let an infant be murdered" from the scene? We can't tell that Snape is "happy" about it, just that he's not thinking about anyone but Lily. Of course he regrets his actions at that point, because he doesn't want to see Lily get hurt. I think we all acknowledge that Lily's safety is the thing that's motivating Snape at this point. But the point is that it's motivating him to do far more than Lucius ever does. In other words, Snape doesn't just sit back and be really, really upset about what LV might do to Lily (as Lucius does in being upset about LV maybe hurting his family). Snape actually takes risks to do something about it. Of course, since you don't acknowledge that Snape did anything like contact LV's worst enemy, risk possible death or imprisonment to meet with DD, hand over vital info to DD, etc., then I don't see how to discuss this.
Yes, but only because there was something in it for him. (Quinn)
No, there's something in it for Lily. Really, if you see people doing things because they are motivated to help people they love as doing it for themselves then it makes a huge amount of the self-sacrifice that people give for their loved ones some sort of bizarre kind of selfishness.
Sorry, I've read this paragraph several times and I still don't understand what you mean, here. (Quinn)
Sorry, I'll try to explain differently.
When Dumbledore asked Snape "what will you do?" (sorry, can't recall exact quote), it was not Dumbledore's question that somehow morphed Snape into a person willing to answer "Anything!" Snape was already willing to give anything, he just needed Dumbledore to suggest it. So Snape, internally, did not need to gain greater remorse in those couple of seconds between DD's question and Snape's answer. He was already exceedingly remorseful and ready to turn his back on LV or whatever else it took, or he would never have ansewred "Anything". If he hadn't already been willing to do anything for DD and the cause, it would have taken at least some amount of time, possible self-searching, or whatever before Snape would have given such an answer. The fact that he answers "Anything!" immediately after DD asks, shows that he already had the willingness to do anything to correct the effects of his choices, and DD's question simply gave him the opportunity to act on it.
Julia H. - Aug 7, 2008 10:06 am (#142 of 2988)
Edited Aug 7, 2008 11:55 am
Snape knows about the danger threatening Lily. He asks Voldemort at this point to spare her. Voldemort grants him this favour. After that, I see (at least) two ways for Snape ("the selfish little sneak") to choose from:
A) "The Dark Lord has promised he will spare Lily. It was dangerous to ask him but luckily I am in his good books now. I will do everything I can to remain in his good books so that he should not change his mind about Lily and that I could rise to a higher rank here. Perhaps Lily will be thankful one day... I have done everything I can for her. Doing something behind the Dark Lord's back would be utterly dangerous, foolish, of course. What would I gain by saving Lily if I died? But I hope Lily and I will be all right now. If I were the one to find the Potters for him, my claim to this favour would be even stronger. Yes, that is the surest way to save Lily and to help myself."
OR:
B) "The Dark Lord has promised he will spare Lily. But how can I be sure he will not change his mind once he is there? I wish I had never spoken to him about the prophecy. Lily must be warned to hide... it would be much safer for her if the Dark Lord did not even get near them at all. I want her to live and he is threatening her! I don't want to help him, I want to save her. Dumbledore can warn her, hide her, save her... I must go to Dumbledore and ask him to help. He probably knows now what I am. It is difficult and dangerous and he is terribly powerful. I may be killed or arrested, sent to Azkaban or the Dark Lord may find it out, his wrath will be terrible if I spoil his plan and he cannot get the child ... but I'd sooner be tortured and killed than let her die. It will be safer for Lily if Dumbledore helps... I want to save her at all costs so I will go to Dumbledore."
Quinn Crockett - Aug 7, 2008 11:44 am (#143 of 2988)
Edited Aug 7, 2008 12:52 pm
You know, Wynnleaf, calling anyone who disagrees with your opinion "illogical" or complaining that their interpretation/point of view of the character "doesn't make any sense" just because you don't happen to like it or agree with it is a pretty good way to bring the whole discussion to a grinding halt. I'm just saying...
I agree, Julia. Snape took a bit of a gamble in going to Dumbledore and it did pay off for him in the sense that he wasn't killed or arrested. But I don't really think Snape was genuinely afraid that Dumbledore would kill him - though perhaps that he would have him arrested. After all, he had recently met with Dumbledore and nothing bad had happened. So, I actually think because nothing bad had happened - and, as you say, Snape had to at least suspect that Dumbledore knew what Snape was - Snape determined that going to Dumbledore was actually the best move, under the circumstances.
Julia H. - Aug 7, 2008 12:07 pm (#144 of 2988)
Actually I think Snape may have thought Dumbledore realized he was a DE after his listening at the keyhole (Aberforth may have thrown him out before the idea of an arrest could have occurred to anyone) but I don't think Snape thought Dumbledore knew he was a DE when he went to him to apply for the DADA position at Voldemort's orders. I don't think Voldmort (or Snape) supposed DD would employ a DE. So that fact that nothing bad happened to him there and then is no indication that after the listening and after what he was just going to confess to DD he would still get away free. We know it from the memory that he was genuinely and terribly afraid, it is written there on the page. Whether he was afraid of being killed or "only " of being arrested and given to the dementors is small difference to me. He was ready to make this sacrifice although he could have just sat back at home thinking that he had already done what he reasonably could and I don't think the significance of this willingness to sacrifice is diminished by the fact that what you call "a gamble" actually "paid off". When he is facing such a choice and is choosing this, I cannot consider him selfish.
Yes, DD was his best chance - to save Lily. That is why he chose him.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 7, 2008 12:57 pm (#145 of 2988)
Oh yeah, that's what I meant. That after the Dumbledore brothers caught Snape eavesdropping (what, is it some sort of compulsion with this guy?) that Dumbledore would have known by then, and Snape would have known that Dumbledore knew, that Snape was probably a Death Eater.
I consider him to be selfish because we know that if Voldemort had chosen the Longbottoms, had chosen Neville instead of Harry, that Snape would have done nothing. He only acted as he did because the consequences of his not acting, in some marginal way, would have affected him personally. He doesn't run to Dumbledore because it's "the right thing to do". He goes to Dumbledore to try to get what he personally wants.
wynnleaf - Aug 7, 2008 1:37 pm (#146 of 2988)
Edited Aug 7, 2008 2:40 pm
You know, Wynnleaf, calling anyone who disagrees with your opinion "illogical" or complaining that their interpretation/point of view of the character "doesn't make any sense" just because you don't happen to like it or agree with it is a pretty good way to bring the whole discussion to a grinding halt. (Quinn)
Actually, what I said was that it "seemed to me" to be illogical. What I meant was that you said that Snape did nothing, and yet you are perfectly able to write out what he did. How could doing something that you yourself can describe be doing "nothing"? And I didn't call "anyone" illogical. Only this particular argument, this one time.
By the way, we have no particular knowledge that DD knew at the time Snape was caught eavesdropping that he was a Death Eater. Sirius, in GOF, said that there was no hint that Snape had been a DE. Sure, DD could have known something no one else knew, but we're not shown that anywhere - that is, that DD knew about Snape being a DE from early on, yet didn't tell any Order members. Sure we can speculate that DD somehow knew that Snape was a DE early on, but JKR never showed that. And if DD did know, yet knowingly allowed Snape to take that partial prophecy to LV without any attempt to stop him, or obliviate him or any other preventive measure, then that makes DD somewhat culpable as well, at least as regards negligence.
Yet when Snape met with DD on the hilltop, we can tell from DD's question that by then he did know Snape was a Death Eater. In fact, the exchange makes it sound as though Snape had implied in some previous communication with DD that Snape had some sort of communication from LV for DD. That would put Snape in a much more risky position. You can't be arrested for listening at a door of a pub. But to openly communicate to DD that he, Snape, was in with LV would make him quite vulnerable. He's as good as telling DD that he's got the Dark Mark on his arm - which would mean DD could send him straight to the aurors and from thence to Azkaban. I don't think his being caught the previous year eavesdropping, with no particular evidence that he was a Death Eater, was anywhere nearly as risky as going to DD and basically admitting to being a Death Eater.
As to the argument that because Snape only goes to DD to save Lily, and that only because Lily is important to him, his actions are only self-serving is not a good view of sacrificing for the sake of love. A great many people sacrifice things purely because they are sacrificing to help people they love. While everyone may have his/her own opinion about whether or not this is actually just a selfish motivation, in general sacrificing or risk-taking for the sake of loved ones is not considered selfish.
It makes me think of a recent conversation I had with someone in fundraising for a charity. My friend said that he thought "sacrificial giving" was a misnomer. He said that when you care enough for a cause, another person, etc., that person or cause becomes more important than the thing you are sacrificing. And therefore the "sacrifice" isn't truly a "sacrifice" because you are following what has greater value to you than the thing you're giving up. But that said, the idea is not that such giving of oneself is selfish. It's just that the other thing or person is more valuable than one's self.
Similarly with sacrificing for someone we love. Is it truly for the other person? Or is it for ourselves because we love them? Well, of course it's both. If I pour myself out for my child, but not for another person's child, this doesn't make me selfish, it is instead simply a natural and human thing and shows the degree of my love for another, not the degree of love I have for myself.
So with Snape. It's true that early on he only cared about Lily and not about others. But that is not the same as being selfish. He is still outwardly motivated, and he is motivated by his great love for another not for himself.
Julia H. - Aug 7, 2008 3:32 pm (#147 of 2988)
Edited Aug 7, 2008 4:39 pm
I consider him to be selfish because we know that if Voldemort had chosen the Longbottoms, had chosen Neville instead of Harry, that Snape would have done nothing. He only acted as he did because the consequences of his not acting, in some marginal way, would have affected him personally. He doesn't run to Dumbledore because it's "the right thing to do". He goes to Dumbledore to try to get what he personally wants. (Quinn)
Still, what he "personally wants" is saving another person even at the cost of getting himself killed or captured. I know the argument that he would not have wanted to save the Longbottoms but after all we all know that this guy at the moment is a member of Voldemort's gang and not a member of the International Red Cross and we can all judge him for that. Yes, he needs this really serious and personally felt blow to turn away from Voldemort. However, regarding a specific action of his, which is at the moment going to DD to save Lily, I am much more inclined to form an opinion about him (or anybody) on the basis of what he actually does in the actual circumstances than on the basis of what he would do under non-existent circumstances. If I hear that a mother jumped into a very dangerous river to save her child, I will probably react by thinking about her bravery or of how much a mother can love her child or perhaps yes, that is what a real mother does - but I will not start thinking that this really selfish person must have jumped only because it was her child she wanted to save but I bet she would not have jumped if she had not known the child.
That is why I regard Snape as selfless and not as selfish when he surrenders to DD to save Lily. Yes, he loves her very much but is it really that natural for a man to be ready to sacrifice everything and do anything to save a woman who does not love him and who he has not been in any kind of contact with for years? Would every rejected lover do the same? The whole topic came up because we were comparing Lucius to Snape. It is easy to notice that Lucius never ever tries to put himself into greater danger to save Narcissa and/or Draco whom he loves as far as we can tell. He does not seem to be particularly willing to sacrifice himself for those he loves and who love him. DD seems to be of a similar opinion when he tells Harry in HBP "Ah poor Lucius... what with Voldemort's fury about the fact that he threw away the Horcrux for his own gain, and the fiasco in the Ministry last year, I would not be surprised if he is secretly glad to be safe in Azkaban at the moment." That is what DD thinks about Lucius's attitude although he knows that Draco is being punished and is in mortal danger precisely because Voldemort cannot punish Lucius directly. So if we call Snape selfish for something that he would (not) have done under non-existent circumstances in spite of his actual willingness to sacrifice himself for the life of another person who does not even return his love in any way, what will we call others who do not seem to be ready to do quite as much for their closest family members? What other words do we have to describe them? And I have not even mentioned people who passively or actively sacrifice others for their own personal benefit.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 7, 2008 7:17 pm (#148 of 2988)
Yeah, I just don't agree, Julia. Nice post though.
mona amon - Aug 7, 2008 8:24 pm (#149 of 2988)
Same here, nice post but I don't agree.
but I will not start thinking that this really selfish person must have jumped only because it was her child she wanted to save but I bet she would not have jumped if she had not known the child. (Julia)
But Julia, what would you think of that same mother if she had not only watched someone throw other people's children into that dangerous river, but actually helped that person in various ways, and only acted against that person and jumped into the river when her own child was thrown in? Isn't her action selfish? And Snape's action was very similar to this.
While everyone may have his/her own opinion about whether or not this is actually just a selfish motivation, in general sacrificing or risk-taking for the sake of loved ones is not considered selfish. (Wynnleaf)
Well almost everything is relative. It depends on what you are comparing it to. Saving a loved one is less selfish than saving yourself, more selfish than saving a stranger. I suppose the least selfish of all is saving an enemy, most selfish of all betraying a loved one...but I haven't thought about that one properly.
Dryleaves - Aug 7, 2008 10:44 pm (#150 of 2988)
Well almost everything is relative. It depends on what you are comparing it to. Saving a loved one is less selfish than saving yourself, more selfish than saving a stranger. I suppose the least selfish of all is saving an enemy (Mona)
To me it seems as if hilltop Snape is on his way away from selfishness. I assume he gives the prophecy to Voldemort to gain something personally, then on the hilltop Lily is dearer to him than his own life and safety. Later in life he takes risks for people he doesn't like and even may consider as his personal enemy.
I just feel that it is a little unfair to go on about how selfish Snape is on the hilltop and judge him for it. At least now he is on the right track, isn't he?
Edited Aug 4, 2008 11:31 am
I think Voldemort views pretty much anybody as expendable. I like the idea of Snape as a forerunner of Draco. Voldmort knew Snape was likely to "come over to the dark side" because he was a loner, disliked by his peers -- perfect prey for a "cult," as it were. So he recruited him to seek the DADA post. Draco was the opposite -- he had fawning acolytes -- but still Draco yearned for even more recognition, like young Snape.
I wonder if that's why Snape sort of took Draco under his wing -- did he see himself in Draco? Or was it just part of the "front" so he'd be "in" with Lucius and the other DEs?
Orion - Aug 4, 2008 12:06 pm (#127 of 2988)
Draco is quite the opposite of Teensev, so IMO Snape's favouritism is an act, at least a big part of it. A little part of it is personal acquaintance. Snape went in and out of Lucius' house and simply knew the boy. Draco is a rich kid with two bodyguards and an admiring girl, so he is practically the Slytherin James.
Julia H. - Aug 4, 2008 12:45 pm (#128 of 2988)
Edited Aug 4, 2008 1:47 pm
Well, as Orion says, Draco is quite the opposite of "Teensev" except in one respect: Draco, like Snape before him, is blindly and without truly understanding the whole picture gets attracted to the wrong side and ruins his life with nobody to stop him. Draco, like Snape before him, loses without gaining anything and he, too, has to face bitter disappointment in the end. Snape, who may well know Draco better than the other students, can probably see how this is happening to him and in this one respect, he may see himself in Draco and feel sorry for him.
Madam Pince - Aug 6, 2008 5:16 am (#129 of 2988)
That's how I see it, Julia. Plus, I think both Draco and teenaged Severus were hungry for recognition. (Draco had more recognition than Severus to begin with, but I think he still yearned for more.)
Quinn Crockett - Aug 6, 2008 9:44 am (#130 of 2988)
I don't think Snape has ever "felt sorry" for anyone in his life - except himself. He may wish to mentor Draco purely out of understanding exactly what happens to young men who sign on with Voldemort.
PeskyPixie - Aug 6, 2008 10:28 am (#131 of 2988)
Edited Aug 6, 2008 11:28 am
I wouldn't have believed him to have been capable of romantic love, but there you are!
Julia H. - Aug 6, 2008 11:12 am (#132 of 2988)
Edited Aug 6, 2008 12:14 pm
To me, the distinction between "feeling sorry for Draco" and "understanding his situation wanting to help (mentor) him" seems to be extremely subtle. I am quite ready to say: "he may see himself in Draco and understanding exactly what happens to young men who sign on with Voldemort, he wishes to mentor him".
Orion - Aug 6, 2008 11:25 am (#133 of 2988)
Hmm. What if he detests Draco? The snotty rich pureblood bodyguard-armoured sucking up arrogant death nibbler Voldie-praising moron who shows his true colours as soon his "mentor" is expendable? Snape puts up a good act, IMO, and feels responsible for Draco as far as DD's orders go, but that's it.
PeskyPixie - Aug 6, 2008 11:51 am (#134 of 2988)
Edited Aug 6, 2008 12:51 pm
Ah, but as Quinn says, Severus doesn't feel sorry for anyone other than himself ... or does he?
Orion - Aug 6, 2008 11:58 am (#135 of 2988)
No.
Julia H. - Aug 6, 2008 1:28 pm (#136 of 2988)
Edited Aug 6, 2008 2:32 pm
He calls him / refers to him as Malfoy in the first three books. He does not mention his name in GoF. In OotP, which means after Voldemort's return, he calls him Draco and I think he will call him Draco and refer to him as Draco from that moment on (even in his conversation with DD).
But I suppose we can interpret this as we like.
wynnleaf - Aug 6, 2008 8:16 pm (#137 of 2988)
I don't think we know enough to tell whether Snape's concern for Draco is anything above what he might have for any student, given the situation. "Feel sorry for" isn't a phrase I'd use to describe Snape's apparent concern for other students, nor for Draco. However, here are a few examples of his concern - or at least indicators that he was probably concerned for particular students in particular situations:
1. His whitened knuckles over a chair when he heard that Ginny had been taken by "Slytherin's monster".
2. His very pale face moments after seeing Harry's memory of the dead Cedric.
3. His dash through the castle in his nightshirt (passing his office which had been broken into), after hearing the opened egg - which sounded like someone screaming.
4. His dash into the toilet, with no apparent regard for his own safety, when Myrtle came out yelling "murder!"
5. His reassurances to Draco that they might be able to avoid scarring after the Sectumsempra episode.
6. His carefulness in placing the injured onto stretchers at the end of POA (when neither Lupin or Sirius seemed to have any such concern for the injured a bit earlier).
7. His efforts during HBP to get Crabbe and Goyle to do better in classes and, I think, pass OWLs that they'd apparently failed the year before.
8. His protection of Neville, Luna, and Ginny in DH.
I don't know if any of these things were because Snape felt "sorry" (shall we call that "sympathy?") for the kids in those positions, but I would definitely say that he appears to have been quite concerned for them.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 6, 2008 10:14 pm (#138 of 2988)
Edited Aug 6, 2008 11:17 pm
From a discussion on the Lucius Malfoy Thread:
And in my reading of the passage, Snape is actually surprised that he should be required to give something in return, and only offers "anything" because he doesn't really know what else to say. (Quinn)
You do not seem to see that Snape's going to DD, giving away vital info about a major goal of Voldemort's to LV's prime enemy, and going against LV's specific wishes, was doing anything at all. - Yeah, that's right.
It's as though you only look at Snape's actions against LV - those actions that show far more than just regret - as starting after DD asks something of Snape. - "Far more than just regret"? How so? We're talking about a guy who was happy to let an infant be murdered as long as it meant the girl he was once close to, but who had dumped him years ago, could be saved. In my view that's "not even regret" not "far more than".
But as to the rest of it: yeah, that's right.
One might assume, from this notion, that DD set out to find Snape and pump him for info and that it was all DD's doing until he asked Snape what he'd be willing to do. - I suppose one might assume that, but personally I don't find that to be a logical conclusion.
Instead, it is Snape taking the initiative to do far more than just regret his actions. He goes against LV, betrays him to his greatest enemy, asks DD to meet him, and hands over the vital information. - Yes, but only because there was something in it for him.
Then DD asks what will you give. DD might as well have said, "What more will you do." Because Snape had already started to do things. - Apparently Dumbledore didn't think so either, hence his question.
Another point is that there are only moments between the point of Snape possibly leaving the scene without promising any more help to DD, and DD's question and Snape's response of "anything". Snape didn't go through some huge paradigm shift at the moment DD asked that question. He had already reached the point of being ready to do anything to change the outcome of his actions. It just took DD asking it of him to put him in a position of actually doing something more than he'd already done. - Sorry, I've read this paragraph several times and I still don't understand what you mean, here.
Orion - Aug 7, 2008 3:13 am (#139 of 2988)
"Severus doesn't feel sorry for anyone other than himself..." (Quinn via PP) I'm perfectly happy with that because first of all Snape is also the only one I feel sorry for, and second, he is a Slytherin after all.
Madam Pince - Aug 7, 2008 5:17 am (#140 of 2988)
Excellent list of examples, wynnleaf.
I'm not sure I'd use the phrase "feel sorry for" either, but I think it's clear he's concerned for the welfare of his students. My thinking was just that he might see the path down which Draco is heading because of his own previous experiences, and he is perhaps trying to look out for him because of that.
(Orion, I feel sorry for Snape, too. I tend to feel sorry for people who are stuck in a bad position that is not really of their own making. So for that reason, though, Snape isn't the only one I feel sorry for -- Harry fits that bill pretty well, too. But Harry managed to work his way though it because of love, which it seems Snape was unable to have. )
wynnleaf - Aug 7, 2008 5:23 am (#141 of 2988)
Edited Aug 7, 2008 6:28 am
You do not seem to see that Snape's going to DD, giving away vital info about a major goal of Voldemort's to LV's prime enemy, and going against LV's specific wishes, was doing anything at all. (wynnleaf)
Yeah, that's right. (Quinn)
But that makes no sense. What is it, if it's not "doing" something? Risking LV finding out that he's taking vital info to the enemy is nothing? Risking possible capture by DD and from there to imprisonment is nothing?
Frankly, as long as you see someone risking their life to try to change the outcome of their own actions as nothing at all, I don't see how we can get anywhere in discussion, because it seems utterly illogical to me.
"Far more than just regret"? How so? We're talking about a guy who was happy to let an infant be murdered as long as it meant the girl he was once close to, but who had dumped him years ago, could be saved. In my view that's "not even regret" not "far more than". (Quinn)
Where do you get " happy to let an infant be murdered" from the scene? We can't tell that Snape is "happy" about it, just that he's not thinking about anyone but Lily. Of course he regrets his actions at that point, because he doesn't want to see Lily get hurt. I think we all acknowledge that Lily's safety is the thing that's motivating Snape at this point. But the point is that it's motivating him to do far more than Lucius ever does. In other words, Snape doesn't just sit back and be really, really upset about what LV might do to Lily (as Lucius does in being upset about LV maybe hurting his family). Snape actually takes risks to do something about it. Of course, since you don't acknowledge that Snape did anything like contact LV's worst enemy, risk possible death or imprisonment to meet with DD, hand over vital info to DD, etc., then I don't see how to discuss this.
Yes, but only because there was something in it for him. (Quinn)
No, there's something in it for Lily. Really, if you see people doing things because they are motivated to help people they love as doing it for themselves then it makes a huge amount of the self-sacrifice that people give for their loved ones some sort of bizarre kind of selfishness.
Sorry, I've read this paragraph several times and I still don't understand what you mean, here. (Quinn)
Sorry, I'll try to explain differently.
When Dumbledore asked Snape "what will you do?" (sorry, can't recall exact quote), it was not Dumbledore's question that somehow morphed Snape into a person willing to answer "Anything!" Snape was already willing to give anything, he just needed Dumbledore to suggest it. So Snape, internally, did not need to gain greater remorse in those couple of seconds between DD's question and Snape's answer. He was already exceedingly remorseful and ready to turn his back on LV or whatever else it took, or he would never have ansewred "Anything". If he hadn't already been willing to do anything for DD and the cause, it would have taken at least some amount of time, possible self-searching, or whatever before Snape would have given such an answer. The fact that he answers "Anything!" immediately after DD asks, shows that he already had the willingness to do anything to correct the effects of his choices, and DD's question simply gave him the opportunity to act on it.
Julia H. - Aug 7, 2008 10:06 am (#142 of 2988)
Edited Aug 7, 2008 11:55 am
Snape knows about the danger threatening Lily. He asks Voldemort at this point to spare her. Voldemort grants him this favour. After that, I see (at least) two ways for Snape ("the selfish little sneak") to choose from:
A) "The Dark Lord has promised he will spare Lily. It was dangerous to ask him but luckily I am in his good books now. I will do everything I can to remain in his good books so that he should not change his mind about Lily and that I could rise to a higher rank here. Perhaps Lily will be thankful one day... I have done everything I can for her. Doing something behind the Dark Lord's back would be utterly dangerous, foolish, of course. What would I gain by saving Lily if I died? But I hope Lily and I will be all right now. If I were the one to find the Potters for him, my claim to this favour would be even stronger. Yes, that is the surest way to save Lily and to help myself."
OR:
B) "The Dark Lord has promised he will spare Lily. But how can I be sure he will not change his mind once he is there? I wish I had never spoken to him about the prophecy. Lily must be warned to hide... it would be much safer for her if the Dark Lord did not even get near them at all. I want her to live and he is threatening her! I don't want to help him, I want to save her. Dumbledore can warn her, hide her, save her... I must go to Dumbledore and ask him to help. He probably knows now what I am. It is difficult and dangerous and he is terribly powerful. I may be killed or arrested, sent to Azkaban or the Dark Lord may find it out, his wrath will be terrible if I spoil his plan and he cannot get the child ... but I'd sooner be tortured and killed than let her die. It will be safer for Lily if Dumbledore helps... I want to save her at all costs so I will go to Dumbledore."
Quinn Crockett - Aug 7, 2008 11:44 am (#143 of 2988)
Edited Aug 7, 2008 12:52 pm
You know, Wynnleaf, calling anyone who disagrees with your opinion "illogical" or complaining that their interpretation/point of view of the character "doesn't make any sense" just because you don't happen to like it or agree with it is a pretty good way to bring the whole discussion to a grinding halt. I'm just saying...
I agree, Julia. Snape took a bit of a gamble in going to Dumbledore and it did pay off for him in the sense that he wasn't killed or arrested. But I don't really think Snape was genuinely afraid that Dumbledore would kill him - though perhaps that he would have him arrested. After all, he had recently met with Dumbledore and nothing bad had happened. So, I actually think because nothing bad had happened - and, as you say, Snape had to at least suspect that Dumbledore knew what Snape was - Snape determined that going to Dumbledore was actually the best move, under the circumstances.
Julia H. - Aug 7, 2008 12:07 pm (#144 of 2988)
Actually I think Snape may have thought Dumbledore realized he was a DE after his listening at the keyhole (Aberforth may have thrown him out before the idea of an arrest could have occurred to anyone) but I don't think Snape thought Dumbledore knew he was a DE when he went to him to apply for the DADA position at Voldemort's orders. I don't think Voldmort (or Snape) supposed DD would employ a DE. So that fact that nothing bad happened to him there and then is no indication that after the listening and after what he was just going to confess to DD he would still get away free. We know it from the memory that he was genuinely and terribly afraid, it is written there on the page. Whether he was afraid of being killed or "only " of being arrested and given to the dementors is small difference to me. He was ready to make this sacrifice although he could have just sat back at home thinking that he had already done what he reasonably could and I don't think the significance of this willingness to sacrifice is diminished by the fact that what you call "a gamble" actually "paid off". When he is facing such a choice and is choosing this, I cannot consider him selfish.
Yes, DD was his best chance - to save Lily. That is why he chose him.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 7, 2008 12:57 pm (#145 of 2988)
Oh yeah, that's what I meant. That after the Dumbledore brothers caught Snape eavesdropping (what, is it some sort of compulsion with this guy?) that Dumbledore would have known by then, and Snape would have known that Dumbledore knew, that Snape was probably a Death Eater.
I consider him to be selfish because we know that if Voldemort had chosen the Longbottoms, had chosen Neville instead of Harry, that Snape would have done nothing. He only acted as he did because the consequences of his not acting, in some marginal way, would have affected him personally. He doesn't run to Dumbledore because it's "the right thing to do". He goes to Dumbledore to try to get what he personally wants.
wynnleaf - Aug 7, 2008 1:37 pm (#146 of 2988)
Edited Aug 7, 2008 2:40 pm
You know, Wynnleaf, calling anyone who disagrees with your opinion "illogical" or complaining that their interpretation/point of view of the character "doesn't make any sense" just because you don't happen to like it or agree with it is a pretty good way to bring the whole discussion to a grinding halt. (Quinn)
Actually, what I said was that it "seemed to me" to be illogical. What I meant was that you said that Snape did nothing, and yet you are perfectly able to write out what he did. How could doing something that you yourself can describe be doing "nothing"? And I didn't call "anyone" illogical. Only this particular argument, this one time.
By the way, we have no particular knowledge that DD knew at the time Snape was caught eavesdropping that he was a Death Eater. Sirius, in GOF, said that there was no hint that Snape had been a DE. Sure, DD could have known something no one else knew, but we're not shown that anywhere - that is, that DD knew about Snape being a DE from early on, yet didn't tell any Order members. Sure we can speculate that DD somehow knew that Snape was a DE early on, but JKR never showed that. And if DD did know, yet knowingly allowed Snape to take that partial prophecy to LV without any attempt to stop him, or obliviate him or any other preventive measure, then that makes DD somewhat culpable as well, at least as regards negligence.
Yet when Snape met with DD on the hilltop, we can tell from DD's question that by then he did know Snape was a Death Eater. In fact, the exchange makes it sound as though Snape had implied in some previous communication with DD that Snape had some sort of communication from LV for DD. That would put Snape in a much more risky position. You can't be arrested for listening at a door of a pub. But to openly communicate to DD that he, Snape, was in with LV would make him quite vulnerable. He's as good as telling DD that he's got the Dark Mark on his arm - which would mean DD could send him straight to the aurors and from thence to Azkaban. I don't think his being caught the previous year eavesdropping, with no particular evidence that he was a Death Eater, was anywhere nearly as risky as going to DD and basically admitting to being a Death Eater.
As to the argument that because Snape only goes to DD to save Lily, and that only because Lily is important to him, his actions are only self-serving is not a good view of sacrificing for the sake of love. A great many people sacrifice things purely because they are sacrificing to help people they love. While everyone may have his/her own opinion about whether or not this is actually just a selfish motivation, in general sacrificing or risk-taking for the sake of loved ones is not considered selfish.
It makes me think of a recent conversation I had with someone in fundraising for a charity. My friend said that he thought "sacrificial giving" was a misnomer. He said that when you care enough for a cause, another person, etc., that person or cause becomes more important than the thing you are sacrificing. And therefore the "sacrifice" isn't truly a "sacrifice" because you are following what has greater value to you than the thing you're giving up. But that said, the idea is not that such giving of oneself is selfish. It's just that the other thing or person is more valuable than one's self.
Similarly with sacrificing for someone we love. Is it truly for the other person? Or is it for ourselves because we love them? Well, of course it's both. If I pour myself out for my child, but not for another person's child, this doesn't make me selfish, it is instead simply a natural and human thing and shows the degree of my love for another, not the degree of love I have for myself.
So with Snape. It's true that early on he only cared about Lily and not about others. But that is not the same as being selfish. He is still outwardly motivated, and he is motivated by his great love for another not for himself.
Julia H. - Aug 7, 2008 3:32 pm (#147 of 2988)
Edited Aug 7, 2008 4:39 pm
I consider him to be selfish because we know that if Voldemort had chosen the Longbottoms, had chosen Neville instead of Harry, that Snape would have done nothing. He only acted as he did because the consequences of his not acting, in some marginal way, would have affected him personally. He doesn't run to Dumbledore because it's "the right thing to do". He goes to Dumbledore to try to get what he personally wants. (Quinn)
Still, what he "personally wants" is saving another person even at the cost of getting himself killed or captured. I know the argument that he would not have wanted to save the Longbottoms but after all we all know that this guy at the moment is a member of Voldemort's gang and not a member of the International Red Cross and we can all judge him for that. Yes, he needs this really serious and personally felt blow to turn away from Voldemort. However, regarding a specific action of his, which is at the moment going to DD to save Lily, I am much more inclined to form an opinion about him (or anybody) on the basis of what he actually does in the actual circumstances than on the basis of what he would do under non-existent circumstances. If I hear that a mother jumped into a very dangerous river to save her child, I will probably react by thinking about her bravery or of how much a mother can love her child or perhaps yes, that is what a real mother does - but I will not start thinking that this really selfish person must have jumped only because it was her child she wanted to save but I bet she would not have jumped if she had not known the child.
That is why I regard Snape as selfless and not as selfish when he surrenders to DD to save Lily. Yes, he loves her very much but is it really that natural for a man to be ready to sacrifice everything and do anything to save a woman who does not love him and who he has not been in any kind of contact with for years? Would every rejected lover do the same? The whole topic came up because we were comparing Lucius to Snape. It is easy to notice that Lucius never ever tries to put himself into greater danger to save Narcissa and/or Draco whom he loves as far as we can tell. He does not seem to be particularly willing to sacrifice himself for those he loves and who love him. DD seems to be of a similar opinion when he tells Harry in HBP "Ah poor Lucius... what with Voldemort's fury about the fact that he threw away the Horcrux for his own gain, and the fiasco in the Ministry last year, I would not be surprised if he is secretly glad to be safe in Azkaban at the moment." That is what DD thinks about Lucius's attitude although he knows that Draco is being punished and is in mortal danger precisely because Voldemort cannot punish Lucius directly. So if we call Snape selfish for something that he would (not) have done under non-existent circumstances in spite of his actual willingness to sacrifice himself for the life of another person who does not even return his love in any way, what will we call others who do not seem to be ready to do quite as much for their closest family members? What other words do we have to describe them? And I have not even mentioned people who passively or actively sacrifice others for their own personal benefit.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 7, 2008 7:17 pm (#148 of 2988)
Yeah, I just don't agree, Julia. Nice post though.
mona amon - Aug 7, 2008 8:24 pm (#149 of 2988)
Same here, nice post but I don't agree.
but I will not start thinking that this really selfish person must have jumped only because it was her child she wanted to save but I bet she would not have jumped if she had not known the child. (Julia)
But Julia, what would you think of that same mother if she had not only watched someone throw other people's children into that dangerous river, but actually helped that person in various ways, and only acted against that person and jumped into the river when her own child was thrown in? Isn't her action selfish? And Snape's action was very similar to this.
While everyone may have his/her own opinion about whether or not this is actually just a selfish motivation, in general sacrificing or risk-taking for the sake of loved ones is not considered selfish. (Wynnleaf)
Well almost everything is relative. It depends on what you are comparing it to. Saving a loved one is less selfish than saving yourself, more selfish than saving a stranger. I suppose the least selfish of all is saving an enemy, most selfish of all betraying a loved one...but I haven't thought about that one properly.
Dryleaves - Aug 7, 2008 10:44 pm (#150 of 2988)
Well almost everything is relative. It depends on what you are comparing it to. Saving a loved one is less selfish than saving yourself, more selfish than saving a stranger. I suppose the least selfish of all is saving an enemy (Mona)
To me it seems as if hilltop Snape is on his way away from selfishness. I assume he gives the prophecy to Voldemort to gain something personally, then on the hilltop Lily is dearer to him than his own life and safety. Later in life he takes risks for people he doesn't like and even may consider as his personal enemy.
I just feel that it is a little unfair to go on about how selfish Snape is on the hilltop and judge him for it. At least now he is on the right track, isn't he?
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Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 12:05 am (#151 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 2:32 am
Yeah, I just don't agree, Julia. Nice post though. (Quinn)
"I wouldn't expect you to."
I suppose the least selfish of all is saving an enemy. (Mona)
The least selfish or the most selfless? I mean would you still call this person selfish? I would call this person perhaps the most selfless though I would also take it into account what it costs or might cost in the given situation to save a friend, a stranger or an enemy. Some people would happily save a friend if that caused no inconvenience to them. Others would go to great lengths to save a friend but perhaps not quite as far as giving up their lives. Still others would readily die for their friends. These are also different degrees on the selfless-selfish scale. But who is more selfless: someone giving up his life to save a friend or someone saving an enemy without any particular sacrifice?
In DH Snape is ready to save Lupin, an old "enemy". In HBP, he saves Draco and comforts Narcissa, although they practically fight on opposing sides.
Snape is selfless in his love for Lily. He is not the most extreme example of selflessness, though he will be something like that later on. As for helping Voldemort before: no, that is of course not selfless but I think I would probably judge his behaviour there along the lines of some other adjectives, the selfish-selfless scale does not seem to be the most relevant one. But when he goes to DD risking his life in several ways to save Lily (and that is what I talk about when I call him selfless), he is quite selfless and certainly more selfless than selfish. Quinn calls it "a bit of a gamble" (yes, gambling with his own life) - he could get killed not only by DD but by Voldemort as well if he found out what Snape had done. I am sure Snape does not expect to get any protection from DD and indeed he does not get any: he has to go back to Voldemort and test whether he is a good enough Occlumense to keep such dangerous information a secret from him. Again I repeat: if he is selfish, what do we call Lucius (who certainly does not voluntarily gamble with his life), Narcissa, Pettigrew, Voldemort, those who do not love anybody deeply enough to sacrifice and change for them? As Dryleaves says, Snape is on the right track now and what puts him on the right track is not his own interest (which can strongly be argued in the case of Lucius if we consider him to be on the right track at all in DH) but the interest of another person. He is leaving Voldemort when his position has just become stronger with him and risks losing everything for someone else. This does not seem to be what the average selfish person would do.
Some people are sure that Lucius changes in DH even though there is no definite evidence that he does (apart from becoming a broken man), at least in a moral sense. In the case of Snape, there is evidence for change: On one side of the equation for him, there are his life, his freedom and his wand, relative safety, Voldemort's favour, the possibility to gain power, some kind of future before him. If he is to keep all this, Lily may have to die (in theory, there is a chance that Voldemort might spare her life because he has promised). On the other side of the equation, there is a stronger chance for Lily to survive and the possibility of Snape losing all or some of the things mentioned above. He makes his choice. He gives up his old, bad ways and starts acting unselfishly, trying to save someone. I don't think it is very easy to voluntarily walk towards the strong possibility of death or imprisonment. If he was selfish before, he is becoming selfless now. He is changing and it is fair to acknowledge this.
mona amon - Aug 8, 2008 7:48 am (#152 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 8:53 am
I just feel that it is a little unfair to go on about how selfish Snape is on the hilltop and judge him for it. (Dryleaves)
Lol, Dryleaves, I'm not going on about how selfish he is on the hilltop to judge him, just making a point. It's because others feel that his action is unselfish and I don't agree with them, and when I don't agree with a post I leave all my urgent work undone, ignore the husband who's breathing down my neck and sit down to air my opinion! pathetic, but there it is!
Julia, I'll try to reply tomorrow!
Dryleaves - Aug 8, 2008 8:24 am (#153 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 10:03 am
LOL, Mona! I never meant that anyone wasn't welcome to disagree! On the contrary! I just felt a little sorry for Snape, that's all...
EDIT: As I see it, when Snape only cares about Lily on the hilltop he does it regardless of whether he will "have" her for himself or not. He wants her to be alive and well even if it is together with James Potter and their son. I think when DD shows his disgust with Snape and Snape says "save them all, then", Snape passes a test of DD's: he doesn't primarily want Lily for himself, he wants her to be well. Therefore I don't think he is all selfish.
Soul Search - Aug 8, 2008 9:30 am (#154 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 10:40 am
"save them all, then", ... "Snape passes a test of DD's: he doesn't primarily want Lily for himself, he wants her to be well." (Dryleaves)
Good observation. I agree. I still can't decide if Snape's interest in Lily, then, was romantic or just because they had been childhood friends. He also had to be feeling guilty because he passed the prophecy to Voldemort. I do note that even though the Potters had "defied the Dark Lord three times," and were still Voldemort's target, Snape had not previously gone to Dumbledore. His guilt had to be part of the reason he went to Dumbledore.
I am not sure how this all plays out for "self interest," or any kind of turnaround for Snape.
If he still had romantic hopes for Lily, then he is even more despicable than I thought and his acts are only self serving.
If he just wanted her to be well, then it was a selfless act and likely was his turnaround event.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 8, 2008 9:32 am (#155 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 10:41 am
Snape is on the right track now and what puts him on the right track is not his own interest but the interest of another person. - Julia
See, this is where I disagree, because I feel the two are one and the same. In other words that the "another person" is Snape's own interest. Again, had Voldemort targeted the Longbottoms instead, Snape would have done absolutely nothing to stop it because there was no stake in it for him personally. Besides, Snape isn't think anything of Lily's happiness, only his own. Even Dumbledore says so:
"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die as long as you have what you want?" Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.
Since JKR speaks through Dumbledore, I would say that this is what she wanted us to understand about Snape in this scene.
I don't think it is very easy to voluntarily walk towards the strong possibility of death or imprisonment - So, you don't think either of these possibilities ever occurred to him when he voluntarily signed on with a genocidal, extremely psychologically unbalanced megalomaniac with a world domination scheme? I mean, after serving under Voldemort, anything Dumbledore might do to him would have been cake.
ETA: "Save them all. then." Well, if it is a test, Snape failed miserably, as far as I'm concerned.
"Save them all, then". As in "No, Severus, you can't have a cookie. You can have a piece of fruit." "I'll have an orange, then."
This wasn't Snape's idea. He has been shamed into asking for it. Therefore, nothing has changed in his original intention.
PeskyPixie - Aug 8, 2008 9:42 am (#156 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 11:03 am
" ... had Voldemort targeted the Longbottoms instead, Snape would have done absolutely nothing to stop it because there was no stake in it for him personally." -Quinn
I agree, Quinn. Snape seeks to protect a person who is his (whether she reciprocates the feeling or not). He is only protecting one of his own, which is not necessarily selfish, but not as selfless as we'd like to imagine.
However, it is this ability to love, however narrow it may be, and his decision to plead with his Master's greatest enemy for the protection of his loved one which gives an indication of the bravery and latent good within him, which blooms under Dumbledore's guidance.
Lily not only saves her son with her death, she also saves the soul of her childhood friend.
ETA: As for going to Dumbledore, his "Don't kill me!" is a clear demonstration of his fears of facing 'The Only One He Ever Feared". Also, I think we have a pretty good idea that Death Eaters are well aware that the consequences of snitching on Voldy will not be pleasant. I don't have much pity for Snape's decision to join the DEs, but yes, once his Lily's life is threatened he is extremely brave in the steps he takes to attempt to save her.
ETA: "Save them all, then". As in "No, Severus, you can't have a cookie. You can have a piece of fruit." "I'll have an orange, then." This wasn't Snape's idea. He has been shamed into asking for it. Therefore, nothing has changed in his original intention."
I agree with most of this, Quinn. However, I don't think he ever considered that a baby's life is worth saving before this point. That's how far he had degraded himself. It takes Dumbledore's "You disgust me" to get him thinking that there may be something abnormal about his values. He doesn't internally change at that moment, but, IMO, this statement has an impact on him in the long run.
Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 10:00 am (#157 of 2988)
I do note that even though the Potters had "defied the Dark Lord three times," and were still Voldemort's target, Snape had not previously gone to Dumbledore. (Soul Search)
We know nothing about the details how they defied Voldemort therefore we do not even know whether Snape knew about it at all. When he heard the prophecy and repeated it to Voldemort, he certainly did not get that those who defied Voldemort three times may have been the Potters. Even DD says that Snape had no possible way of knowing who the prophecy referred to. So I conclude he did not know that Lily had defied Voldemort three times.
I am not sure how this all plays out for "self interest," or any kind of turnaround for Snape.
If he still had romantic hopes for Lily, then he is even more despicable than I thought and his acts are only self serving.
Whatever way he loved her if he had been put into Azkaban or killed, he would not have had much to hope for in connection with Lily (or anything) and yet he was willing to save her risking that. Besides, I cannot imagine that he did not know that Dumbledore would save the whole Potter family, including James. He did not care much for that but the possibility of the survival of James, Lily's husband, certainly did not stop him from going to DD. If he had wanted to save Lily for himself only, he would have been satisfied with Voldemort's promise, which would have been the perfect solution for him if he had had any selfish plans with Lily. What he really wanted was Lily to be well in whatever way it was best achieved.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 8, 2008 10:20 am (#158 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 11:25 am
I cannot imagine that he did not know that Dumbledore would save the whole Potter family, including James. - No, I don't think so. From the way the conversation actually went, it's clear enough to me that Snape, not only didn't care in the slightest about either James or baby Harry, he didn't even give them a moment's thought.
What he really wanted was Lily to be well in whatever way it was best achieved. - But how could he genuinely have wanted "Lily to be well" and not thought that her family being dead would completely negate that?
Orion - Aug 8, 2008 10:41 am (#159 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 11:42 am
"ETA: "Save them all. then." Well, if it is a test, Snape failed miserably, as far as I'm concerned. "Save them all, then". As in "No, Severus, you can't have a cookie. You can have a piece of fruit." "I'll have an orange, then." This wasn't Snape's idea. He has been shamed into asking for it. Therefore, nothing has changed in his original intention." (Quinn)
Agreed, Quinn. But at least Snape can be shamed into doing something. The problem are the people who can't. Try that with Bella or Lucius.
True, Snape has a selfish motif for trying to rescue Lily because she is his loved one. But: This is completely understandable and forgivable human behaviour. Nobody, when faced with the possible death of a loved one, thinks about completely unknown people first. Not even a saint. Well, yes, maybe a saint would. But saints are so terribly self-righteous that nobody can stand them.
And then, after the initial shock, Snape can indeed be shamed. And then he makes an admirable progression. It takes him years, but it is a lot more than many people would achieve, and he takes it to ridiculous extremes, until he practically dies on the job. That's the extent to which he has been shamed.
Dryleaves - Aug 8, 2008 10:42 am (#160 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 12:24 pm
"Save them all. then." Well, if it is a test, Snape failed miserably, as far as I'm concerned. "Save them all, then". As in "No, Severus, you can't have a cookie. You can have a piece of fruit." "I'll have an orange, then." This wasn't Snape's idea. He has been shamed into asking for it. Therefore, nothing has changed in his original intention. (Quinn)
I am not sure the cookie/fruit metaphor is really relevant. Snape will not have an orange instead of a cookie, he will have a cookie or nothing. OK, the hope for a cookie may still be there if Lily survives, but how realistic is it that she will change her mind, leave James and go with DE Snape instead?
I thought of this scene more as of DD clarifying to Snape what the choices in fact are and then Snape makes a choice. I do not think he necessarily has to come up with the suggestion himself, but he can still make the right choice. I think DD's disgust made him think about what his intention really was. If I change my mind about the metaphor and say that it after all is relevant, it would mean that DD made Snape think: "No; I don't want to get fat and ruin my teeth even more, I want to have all those vitamins and healthy stuff that an orange contains." Or something like that...
I see what you mean about the then, but I think Snape after the hilltop scene starts to eat oranges, first very reluctantly, but he wants to be an orange eater, not a cookie monster. I think it is unfair to judge an overweight person for their overweight if he/she has slowly started to live a healthier life. If you see what I mean. Metaphors often seem to halt (or was that a Swenglish expression..?)
EDIT: What I find horrible about Snape at that moment is that he couldn't care less about the fate of a baby, any baby. Also, this is his beloved's child who has been targetted by the Dark Lord. You don't have to be a saint to be concerned about this child's welfare. (Pesky)
I too find this horrible. But later he agrees to protect this child and ends up protecting other children as well. He is not the best of men when he goes to the hilltop, far from it. But he goes there. And he does not go back, but on. He may not reach sainthood, but he is not that far from it, I think.
(I guess I react because sometimes it seems like just because Snape in many ways is despicable on the hilltop (and before) what comes after does not count.)
PeskyPixie - Aug 8, 2008 11:03 am (#161 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 12:03 pm
Well, Orion, Harry is a bit of a saint when it come to his 'saving people' thing.
What I find horrible about Snape at that moment is that he couldn't care less about the fate of a baby, any baby. Also, this is his beloved's child who has been targetted by the Dark Lord. You don't have to be a saint to be concerned about this child's welfare.
However, I do agree that it says something about Snape's character that he can at least be shamed into doing the right thing, even as a Death Eater.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 8, 2008 11:11 am (#162 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 12:22 pm
I am not sure the cookie/fruit metaphor is really relevant. - I wasn't make a metaphor. I was trying to give another example of the tone in which Snape says, "Save them all, then". It's a concession, a compromise. Not what he originally intended or wanted. Still, this made me laugh: he wants to be an orange eater, not a cookie monster.
I agree, Orion. It's an important point that Snape can be shamed, as well as that pretty much everything he does throughout the rest of the series rests on this moment.
I also agree very strongly with Pesky. Anyone who could let a baby die - especially the baby of the woman he supposedly loves - is one messed up dude!
Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 11:31 am (#163 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 12:55 pm
See, this is where I disagree, because I feel the two are one and the same. In other words that the "another person" is Snape's own interest. Again, had Voldemort targeted the Longbottoms instead, Snape would have done absolutely nothing to stop it because there was no stake in it for him personally. Besides, Snape isn't think anything of Lily's happiness, only his own. (Quinn)
He is thinking of his own happiness but that happiness means that Lily stays alive - whatever Snape has to give up for that. It may be selfish to pursue what makes us happy (though most people do that), however, I think it counts very much what happiness means to a certain person. Happiness can mean becoming powerful or sitting on a pile of money or getting the coolest car available or bringing up children or helping the old and the disabled or discovering a new treatment for cancer, to mention just a few possibilites. A truly good person, a saint, someone full of charitable feelings may find true happiness in helping people while enduring terrible hardships in a war situation or in the depth of a jungle. I find this person totally selfless precisely because happiness for him/her is another person's well-being. Each mother who looks after an ill child finds happiness in his / her recovery and yet I don't find her motivation selfish. In your view, it seems a truly selfless person must be utterly unhappy because they only do things they do not want to do and their loved ones must be totally unhappy as well since this truly unselfish person would never do anything for them since it would mean doing something for himself / herself as well. (Concerning the Longbottoms, I have already explained my point.) Snape's own happiness, as he is pursuing it now, could be a cell in Azkaban, where he might end up sitting, knowing/hoping that Dumbledore is keeping Lily safe - at least until the dementors take these happy thoughts from him.
From the way the conversation actually went, it's clear enough to me that Snape, not only didn't care in the slightest about either James or baby Harry, he didn't even give them a moment's thought.
But how could he genuinely have wanted "Lily to be well" and not thought that her family being dead would completely negate that?
Now this is where I see a contradiction. Did Snape think about Lily's family being dead or not? I agree (if this is what you mean) that his mind was so full of Lily that he did not even consider that two other people were also concerned there. It is not admirable but when you are scared for the safety of someone you love, it is quite believable psychologically that you do not give much thought to other people involved in the same danger. (When a person hears about a plane crash in which their loved ones might be involved and runs like mad to get information I wonder what is more likely: that the person will want to learn what happened to every single passenger in alphabetical order or that they want to hear first and above all that their loved ones are well.)
Snape is too distressed and out of his mind with worry about Lily to think about anything else. (He can hardly speak properly.) That would perfectly explain why he did not say a word or why he said then when DD shamed him into thinking about Lily's family. I agree with the notion of "Snape being shamed into" seeing the broader context and it is good that it was possible to shame him into it. Shame may be a forerunner of remorse. In the latter sense, he may have passed that test: DD saw that there was hope for him and that was the moment when he asked Snape what he would be willing to do. But if he is - originally - not able to give a thought to the other two people, how can we expect him to think it over logically what Lily will think about the same people? If he does not give a thought to them, he cannot think that they might die. However, if Snape does think about Lily's husband and children being involved in the situation, then he - not being exactly stupid - must know that DD will not just save Lily but the whole family. That is what logic dictates.
So he either thinks and then he knows that going to DD means saving the whole family even though it is only Lily he cares for and then he has no reason to suppose that Lily will survive while her family members die. (But it is proof that he does not want to save Lily for himself, he only wants to save Lily.) Or he cannot think of anything else but Lily because of the psychological state he is in and in that case he cannot think about Lily's family being dead or alive at all and he cannot much think about any future issues either, only the immediate task of securing protection for Lily.
But how could he genuinely have wanted "Lily to be well" and not thought that her family being dead would completely negate that?
Hm.. I think one reason why Snape did not find Voldemort's promise satisfying is that he knew Lily quite well and he knew that Lily (protective as she was) would not just stand by or run away while her family were being killed and that may be a reason why he wanted Voldemort to be kept away from Lily / the Potters completely.
ETA: I agree with Orion. Snape was ultimately shamed into amazing things. But he needed that helping hand first and it is a pity he had not got it much earlier. It would probably have been possible to shame him into better choices before things went really wrong.
Letting the baby of his loved one die: Snape did not let Harry die. It was Harry who survived after all. Only in a dangerous situation he was thinking specifically about Lily because he loved Lily, which, as Orion says, is a general human trait, but saving Lily he also happened to be saving Harry. He could hardly have done more for Harry even if he had wanted to save specifically him. And he could have chosen to try to save Lily while really letting Harry and James die if he had stuck with Voldemort.
Questions: Is Lily selfish when he dies for her child? Her child's survival probably means happiness to her. She dies for someone who is hers. Is Harry selfish when he goes to the forest to die for all those people he loves?
Quinn Crockett - Aug 8, 2008 12:09 pm (#164 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 1:16 pm
It is not admirable but when you are scared for the safety of someone you love, it is quite believable psychologically that you do not give much thought to other people involved in the same danger. - When one of those "other people" is an infant, I don't think it is believable at all. Call me naive, but I would like to think that that wouldn't be a normal response.
Ha! Julia, you seem doggedly determined to tweeze out even the most remotely possible altruistic intent on this character's part. But in my view, it just isn't there and you're not going to convince me that it is.
wynnleaf - Aug 8, 2008 12:38 pm (#165 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 1:41 pm
It is not admirable but when you are scared for the safety of someone you love, it is quite believable psychologically that you do not give much thought to other people involved in the same danger.
When one of those "other people" is an infant, I don't think it is believable at all. Call me naive, but I would like to think that that wouldn't be a normal response.
I know we've discussed this in the past, but I think that Snape's own childhood was not one that would cause a person to understand the value of a child versus any other person. At least from what we're shown, it does not appear that he was valued as a child by his parents, so he probably did not have that deep-seated notion that most of us have that the deaths or injury of babies and young children is somehow worse than the death or injury of an adult. In fact, people who don't have that kind of belief system, often in fact believe that the deaths of children are less bad than the deaths of adults. I'm thinking of when I lived in the Papua New Guinea highlands where, at least as far as I could see, children seemed to have less overall value than adults - perhaps because of mortality, I don't know. But my point is that we are conditioned by our culture to see the innocence of a baby or young child and it's dependence on adults as somehow making adults more responsible to care for the child than to care for an adult. But Snape had apparently grown up neglected without much care from his parents - therefore they did not teach him that adults should value children any more highly than anyone else.
Of course, Snape should have cared that any innocent person would get killed, but as has been pointed out, right or wrong, the typical human response is to focus on the safety of one's loved ones first, even if others are also at risk.
I liked Julia's use of the word "selfless". On a continuum between selfish and selfless, I think I'd consider anyone who risks their life for another - regardless how loved - as somewhat selfless, with the person who risks their life for a stranger perhaps the most selfless.
But remember that anyone who risks their life for another is still acting in some way or another out of self-interest, because they are acting based on their own set of values, their own belief structure, etc. In other words, if I see a stranger in trouble and decide to risk my life for them, it's because my values are such that I consider their life important. My beliefs are telling me that they have value in my understanding of what's important. So even if I save a stranger, it's because I am acting on what I value the most. Does that make it selfish? Well, it is a certain degree of self-interest, because it's my own value system that I'm upholding. But would I actually call it selfish? No.
Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 1:55 pm (#166 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 3:04 pm
When one of those "other people" is an infant, I don't think it is believable at all. Call me naive, but I would like to think that that wouldn't be a normal response. (Quinn)
But, Quinn, if Snape gives a thought to Harry the infant, then, as I have said, he will instantly know that informing DD will mean greater safety for the infant as well as for the mother. Then he can perfectly well go back thinking about the mother he loves.
As for what is the normal response: I agree with Wynnleaf that upbringing counts and also whether he has had any experience with babies or with the way adults treat babies or whether he has ever thought of starting a family of his own (given his situation, I don't think he has). He has never even seen that baby, in fact he may not have seen many babies at all, who knows... You know when I was expecting my first child, one day a 20-plus-year-old young man, who was standing next to his girl-friend, totally innocently and seriously asked me if it was not a bad feeling to have that baby moving about inside me. I stared at him with an expression of shock for a moment but then I smiled and quietly explained to him that it was one of the best feelings in the world. Since then I have known that there are young men (and perhaps not only young ones) who have no idea (yet) what a baby is. (Of course, I am not saying that all twenty-year-old men are like this.) Snape, in any case, has a lot to learn yet. This is precisely why I find it symbolic that he ends up with the specific task of protecting children. Yes, he has to be shamed into it because he has not brought the "normal attitude" from home.
Julia, you seem doggedly determined to tweeze out even the most remotely possible altruistic intent on this character's part.
It is because I find the willingness to sacrifice or even risk one's life for anyone else altruistic by definition. Even in situations where it is kind of natural (like in Lily's case), I find it altruistic. The instinct of survival is in all of us and is very strong and therefore it can only be overcome by something even stronger: strong love, for example, or a strong belief in a cause. I don't think everybody could find it in himself/herself to knowingly and voluntarily protect others instead of protecting oneself.
In Snape's case it is remarkable because he has experienced very little love in his life and currently he is under the worst type of influence possible and yet he finds enough love in himself, if only for one person, to sacrifice and to change. Then look how far this love will take him. I have said it before: the power that defeats Voldemort is love. Harry, because he can love, ultimately defeats Voldemort out there in the wizarding world. Snape, because he can love, ultimately defeats Voldemort inside himself. It starts here. In this sense Harry's story and Snape's story are the two sides of the same thing.
Other things I find very important are the strong willingness to prevent the result of the wrong he has done and the readiness to pay the price if necessary and also the sincerity with which he opens up to Dumbledore. He has no answers to DD's questions, which may be a shame, but it also means that he has not thought about how to behave, what to say, how to approach the old man, how to make himself liked. No occlumency here. He is kneeling there and though it is not his purpose, he opens up and shows who and what he really is. The good and the bad. He has no other thought but Lily. He knows he has done wrong and he accepts DD's strict words, he accepts the blame and the shame and he would probably be ready to accept worst things if that was DD's decision and he offers himself to whatever fate DD might choose for him. So it is not only DD's words I think that affect him in the long run but the whole experience he is going through and ultimately the experience of being - sort of - forgiven and helped and lifted from where he is.
He is only able to open up like this because he wants to save Lily. The next time he will open up to another person in a similar way will be when he gives Harry his memories to help him. Between these two experiences, one day Narcissa will come to him begging him on her knees to save her son. I think the hilltop experience comes back to him then, when he, instead of just sending Narcissa home, kneels down again, as he was kneeling on the hilltop, and takes her hand and takes the vow that will give her hope.
Orion - Aug 8, 2008 2:19 pm (#167 of 2988)
Normally I wholeheartedly agree with everything you write, Julia (separated at birth?), but Snape is rapidly turning into St Severus. In Spinner's End he is acting the spy, showing off in front of Bella and promising nothing he wasn't doing anyway. Narcissa is none the wiser about him when she departs because he leads her around in circles. And when he opens up to Harry he is sending him to his death, and the only thing he finds interesting in Harry are the eyes which, to him, don't belong to Harry, but to Harry's mum. It's not doing the character a favour to explain away the not so lovely sides. JM2K.
PeskyPixie - Aug 8, 2008 2:27 pm (#168 of 2988)
" ... if Snape gives a thought to Harry the infant, then, as I have said, he will instantly know that informing DD will mean greater safety for the infant as well as for the mother. Then he can perfectly well go back thinking about the mother he loves."
I just don't think that Snape is all that 'good' at this stage of the game, Julia. He needs to be 'bad' in order for the redemption storyline to be powerful.
Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 2:42 pm (#169 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 4:26 pm
No, Orion, not St. Severus. Only a poor, unhappy man, lost in life, who loves a woman and later the memory of a woman more than his life, more than anything else, and a man who is fighting a desperate, hopeless fight with destiny to erase a past that cannot be erased. But I do think he learns his lesson and the hilltop scene affects the rest of his life. In Spinner's End he is acting the spy, he is careful and cunning as he has to be. But there is an observable change in his behaviour during the scene. Even in the way he speaks, his gestures become different by the end. I don't think he wants to comfort Narcissa from the start or because he is a "saint". When she falls on the floor in desperation, something seems to happen to him. I have said he is an emotionally driven man and in that scene, there is a lot he can react to emotionally. DD's death, a woman begging him to save her son, someone begging for the life of a loved person threatened by Voldemort. I do hope that all the parallels between the hilltop scene and this scene were intentionally put there by JKR. (For example, she did not need to design the Unbreakable Vow with kneeling participants, it was her decision alone. Why?) What I like about this scene is that Snape is both a cunning, careful and skillful spy and a human being probably struggling inside with certain emotions. I know he does not promise anything he was not doing anyway. But the vow is important because that is the only thing that reassures Narcissa. He would do the same without the vow I know but Narcissa would not know it. That is the difference, the act of comforting. He knows how she must feel and tries to communicate it to her that he will save Draco but he must be careful not to betray that there is another plan besides Voldemort's. IMO it is a very well-written scene, in which one can easily discover new things at every reread.
And when he opens up to Harry he is sending him to his death, and the only thing he finds interesting in Harry are the eyes which, to him, don't belong to Harry, but to Harry's mum.
Yet even by sending Harry to his death, he is telling Harry how to achieve his goal. Harry can make his choice then. He is helping the light side with this, fulfilling his promise. Whatever his purpose is when he gives up his memories, it is something for other people, not himself, since he is already dying.
It's not doing the character a favour to explain away the not so lovely sides.
Hm.. I thought I was explaining his good sides, not explaining away his bad sides. I hardly ever discuss those. Snape has lots of faults I know but there are dozens of people explaining them on this forum so I don't think my participation is necessary there. They are also quite obvious from the books. It is more interesting for me to explore the less obvious.
Normally I wholeheartedly agree with everything you write...
I did not know! Sometimes I do need some encouragement.
He needs to be 'bad' in order for the redemption storyline to be powerful. (Pesky)
I don't think he is good. But I do think he has the potential to be good. I think he is bad because he has tried to be bad. "Life is bad, let's see what happens if I become bad, too." (There is a 20-th century play in my language about a man who realizes how bad everything in his life has become and decides to be bad himself as well, kind of saying to God "let's see what the two of us can do together". I don't think Snape made a conscious decision but something like that may have happened to him.) Snape has chosen to be bad and he is just about to realize that he cannot be. But he will not want to be good for quite a while yet even though he cannot be bad either. His destiny has to force him into the most extreme situation, in which he has to decide on being good or not.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 8, 2008 3:30 pm (#170 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 4:31 pm
But the vow is important because that is the only thing that reassures Narcissa. - Actually, this was entirely for Bellatrix's benefit, to assure her of his loyalty to Voldemort. Comforting Narcissa had nothing to do with it. In fact, it is Narcissa, equally cunning and shrewd in her own right, who suggests it.
Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 4:12 pm (#171 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 5:17 pm
Well, Snape already assured Bellatrix of his loyalty earlier:
'If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak,' said Snape at once. 'The Dark Lord's word is law.'
Narcissa gasped as though he had doused her with cold water. Bellatrix looked satisfied for the first time since she had entered the house.
'There!' she said triumphantly to her sister. 'Even Snape says so: you were told not to talk, so hold your silence!'
Bellatrix could not be more satisfied than that and I don't see any reason why the conversation should continue after this point. Yet, Snape starts saying he knows about the plan by this giving Narcissa the opportunity to continue asking him. Why? Perhaps it is Snape's "saving people thing". Perhaps he considers Bellatrix capable of telling Voldemort that her own sister wanted to betray the secret plan and by confessing that he knows about the plan, he says it is not "treachery". (He almost as good as warns Narcissa to be more careful.) Anyway, in the end his whole manner towards Narcissa changes. And whatever his reasons are, the hilltop memory may well come back to him. The similarities are unmistakable.
But I agree with you about Narcissa. She knows what she is doing.
mona amon - Aug 8, 2008 8:38 pm (#172 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 10:32 pm
True, Snape has a selfish motif for trying to rescue Lily because she is his loved one. But: This is completely understandable and forgivable human behaviour. Nobody, when faced with the possible death of a loved one, thinks about completely unknown people first. (Orion)
I agree that it is understandable, but Snape's case is a bit different. He did not think about unknown people first, last or at any time. He obviously felt it was quite ok if these unknown people were killed, as he was willingly aiding and abetting Voldemort who he knew was a murderer and a torturer.
So until Dumbledore's "You disgust me!", Snape is someone who thinks that other people's loved ones can be killed and it doesn't matter, only his loved one matters. That's selfish according to me. Also, he is so wrapped up in what he wants (Lily to be alive) that he doesn't even consider what she might want. It doesn't occur to him that she'd probably rather die than have her husband and baby murdered in front of her.
Hm.. I think one reason why Snape did not find Voldemort's promise satisfying is that he knew Lily quite well and he knew that Lily (protective as she was) would not just stand by or run away while her family were being killed and that may be a reason why he wanted Voldemort to be kept away from Lily / the Potters completely. (Julia)
Julia, somehow I just can't imagine that the Snape of that period would have thought all that. He just knew that Voldemort was not the type who could be trusted to keep a promise. And at the beginning of the hilltop scene, he does not seem to be at all aware that DD will try to save Harry and James as well.
Only a poor, unhappy man, lost in life, who loves a woman and later the memory of a woman more than his life, more than anything else, and a man who is fighting a desperate, hopeless fight with destiny to erase a past that cannot be erased. (Julia)
LOL, Julia, this also sounds very much like St. Sev to me. But go ahead, don't allow us to cramp your style!
BTW, I agree that that he does start changing, even while he's on the hilltop.
ETA: And that he was very brave, even before that.
Solitaire - Aug 8, 2008 9:34 pm (#173 of 2988)
As for going to Dumbledore, his "Don't kill me!" is a clear demonstration of his fears of facing 'The Only One He Ever Feared".
I thought "The Only One He Ever Feared" was referring to Voldemort's fear of Dumbledore, not Snape's. Why would Snape fear Dumbledore?
As to Snape's selfishness or selflessness ... we know from "The Prince's Tale" that he did none of this for Harry. Everything was done for Lily. I do not have my books with me, but I do know he says as much, right before he casts his Patronus while meeting with Dumbledore. In one of her interviews, Jo said that if Lily had not been in the picture, Snape would have done nothing to help Harry. I personally believe that if he had not given Dumbledore his word that he would do all to help Lily's son, Snape would have walked away and left Harry to his fate ... whatever that my have been.
Snape is too distressed and out of his mind with worry about Lily to think about anything else. (He can hardly speak properly.) That would perfectly explain why he did not say a word or why he said then when DD shamed him into thinking about Lily's family.
I thought Dumbledore queried Snape as to whether he had asked Voldemort if he would spare Lily in exchange for giving up Harry, and Snape said something like, "I have asked." (Again, I do not have my book, so I cannot check the place or exact wording.) This would indicate that he had given some thought to the matter and had possibly explored various scenarios. Knowing Lily as he did, however, Snape must have known without even bothering to ask that she would never abandon her husband or child. Dumbledore knew it, too.
Orion: I still stick to my original opinion: If Parseltongue is a magical language that you either have or have not, then Ron cannot reproduce it, period. He doesn't only manage to say one word, but the brass tap actually obeys and opens!!! Then I must conclude that Hogwarts needs Parseltongue on its curriculum and some Parselmouth to teach it. End of off-topic subject. Ceterum censeo...
Jo has said in one of her post-DH interviews that when the bit of Voldemort that was residing in Harry is blasted out, he no longer speaks or understands Parseltongue. So, yes, it is a rare and special gift. Dumbledore, I think, refers to Salazar Slytherin's "own special gift" of Parseltongue when he first tells Harry in CoS that Voldemort "put a bit of himself" in Harry. In other words, I'm not sure it is something that can be taught ... although perhaps it can. Dumbledore spoke Mermish and Gobbledegook. Did he also speak and/or understand Parseltongue? I'm thinking of the memory where we first see the Gaunts ...
The fact that Ron is able to imitate Parseltongue well enough to open the Chamber of Secrets ... well, does that need some commentary by Jo? Is it simple plot manipulation?
one day Narcissa will come to him begging him on her knees to save her son. I think the hilltop experience comes back to him then
Once again, Snape is trapped into doing something here. He has already made a promise to Dumbledore, and now, with Bella standing there casting doubt upon his loyalty to Voldemort, Snape really has no choice but to agree to help Draco and make the Unbreakable Vow. These two promises lock him into a course of action he does not want to take ... but he has given his word, so he is stuck. Ah, I see Quinn has beat me to the punch here. I'm writing as I'm catching up on nearly 60 posts on this thread, and not all of them are short!
Solitaire
Solitaire - Aug 8, 2008 9:37 pm (#174 of 2988)
As for going to Dumbledore, his "Don't kill me!" is a clear demonstration of his fears of facing 'The Only One He Ever Feared".
I thought "The Only One He Ever Feared" was referring to Voldemort's fear of Dumbledore, not Snape's. Why would Snape fear Dumbledore?
As to Snape's selfishness or selflessness ... we know from "The Prince's Tale" that he did none of this for Harry. Everything was done for Lily. I do not have my books with me, but I do know he says as much, right before he casts his Patronus while meeting with Dumbledore. In one of her interviews, Jo said that if Lily had not been in the picture, Snape would have done nothing to help Harry. I personally believe that if he had not given Dumbledore his word that he would do all to help Lily's son, Snape would have walked away and left Harry to his fate ... whatever that my have been.
Snape is too distressed and out of his mind with worry about Lily to think about anything else. (He can hardly speak properly.) That would perfectly explain why he did not say a word or why he said then when DD shamed him into thinking about Lily's family.
I thought Dumbledore queried Snape as to whether he had asked Voldemort if he would spare Lily in exchange for giving up Harry, and Snape said something like, "I have asked." (Again, I do not have my book, so I cannot check the place or exact wording.) This would indicate that he had given some thought to the matter and had possibly explored various scenarios. Knowing Lily as he did, however, Snape must have known without even bothering to ask that she would never abandon her husband or child. Dumbledore knew it, too.
Orion: I still stick to my original opinion: If Parseltongue is a magical language that you either have or have not, then Ron cannot reproduce it, period. He doesn't only manage to say one word, but the brass tap actually obeys and opens!!! Then I must conclude that Hogwarts needs Parseltongue on its curriculum and some Parselmouth to teach it. End of off-topic subject. Ceterum censeo...
Jo has said in one of her post-DH interviews that when the bit of Voldemort that was residing in Harry is blasted out, he no longer speaks or understands Parseltongue. So, yes, it is a rare and special gift. Dumbledore, I think, refers to Salazar Slytherin's "own special gift" of Parseltongue when he first tells Harry in CoS that Voldemort "put a bit of himself" in Harry. In other words, I'm not sure it is something that can be taught ... although perhaps it can. Dumbledore spoke Mermish and Gobbledegook. Did he also speak and/or understand Parseltongue? I'm thinking of the memory where we first see the Gaunts ...
The fact that Ron is able to imitate Parseltongue well enough to open the Chamber of Secrets ... well, does that need some commentary by Jo? Is it simple plot manipulation?
one day Narcissa will come to him begging him on her knees to save her son. I think the hilltop experience comes back to him then
Once again, Snape is trapped into doing something here. He has already made a promise to Dumbledore, and now, with Bella standing there casting doubt upon his loyalty to Voldemort, Snape really has no choice but to agree to help Draco and make the Unbreakable Vow. These two promises lock him into a course of action he does not want to take ... but he has given his word, so he is stuck. Ah, I see Quinn has beaten me to the punch here. I'm writing as I'm catching up on nearly 60 posts on this thread, and not all of them are short!
Solitaire
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 12:06 am (#175 of 2988)
He did not think about unknown people first, last or at any time. (Mona)
It is so but when he was reminded of them, he did feel ashamed.
It doesn't occur to him that she'd probably rather die than have her husband and baby murdered in front of her.
Snape knew how protective Lily was of her sister (tree), of Mary (Mulciber), of Snape (Worst Memory), I don't think he needed to think logically to realize (I think he could realize it at once) that Voldemort's promise was valid only as far as Lily would quietly accept the favour of being left alive while her family were being murdered and that she was not at all likely to do that. Also Voldemort had just identified Lily to him as someone who had defied him three times together with James. It made it even more likely that she would fight again. As I imagine, Snape's first, terrified reaction to the news was asking LV to spare Lily. After this, Snape immediately or soon realized how unlikely it was that Voldemort and Lily would somehow "agree" on the scenario Voldemort was promising and that yes, promise or not, Voldemort would not spare her in the end. Since Snape was ready to sacrifice for someone he loved, he could know Lily was also ready. Voldemort, as we see in DH, could perfectly well imagine that Lily would not fight if he told her she could stay alive. It is because he himself was not able to make sacrifices for anyone. We could be sure it did not occur to Snape that Lily would rather die than see her family murdered if he had quietly waited for LV to fulfill his promise. With all this, he was thinking about saving her alone, but he knew her well and he knew the safest thing was for her not even to be near LV at all.
Not a saint, Mona, someone who is struggling with the evil he once did for the rest of his life does not need to be a saint. But he changes a lot and goes a long way.
As to Snape's selfishness or selflessness ... we know from "The Prince's Tale" that he did none of this for Harry. Everything was done for Lily. Solitaire
This seems to be something we all agree on. What we are debating is whether it is selfish behaviour or not to sacrifice or risk our lives for someone we love. I, personally, feel that very few people in the world could be called selfless according to the standards of some people here. (The question came up from the comparison of Lucius and Snape on the Lucius thread.)
Knowing Lily as he did, however, Snape must have known without even bothering to ask that she would never abandon her husband or child. Dumbledore knew it, too.
That is exactly what I am trying to say. I think this is the reason why he went to DD. He only wanted to save Lily, yes, but he must have realized that the difference between LV's promise and DD's help was that DD would not stop at saving only Lily. He knew Lily would be the safest if she did not have to defend anyone in her family.
Regarding the Vow, Solitaire, I have already answered to you and Quinn a few posts ago. I said Snape could have got rid of the two women much earlier and even if he was trapped into making the vow, he may have wanted to reassure Narcissa (he was going to save Draco anyway, only Narcissa did not know) and he may have felt compassion precisely because Narcissa's plight was so similar to his own before. The vow was not at all his idea but he was trying to reassure her anyway - and then, yes, he took the vow and he could take it for more than one reason:
Snape did not look at Bellatrix. His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand.
'Certainly, Narcissa, I shall make the Unbreakable Vow,' he said quietly.
Edited Aug 8, 2008 2:32 am
Yeah, I just don't agree, Julia. Nice post though. (Quinn)
"I wouldn't expect you to."
I suppose the least selfish of all is saving an enemy. (Mona)
The least selfish or the most selfless? I mean would you still call this person selfish? I would call this person perhaps the most selfless though I would also take it into account what it costs or might cost in the given situation to save a friend, a stranger or an enemy. Some people would happily save a friend if that caused no inconvenience to them. Others would go to great lengths to save a friend but perhaps not quite as far as giving up their lives. Still others would readily die for their friends. These are also different degrees on the selfless-selfish scale. But who is more selfless: someone giving up his life to save a friend or someone saving an enemy without any particular sacrifice?
In DH Snape is ready to save Lupin, an old "enemy". In HBP, he saves Draco and comforts Narcissa, although they practically fight on opposing sides.
Snape is selfless in his love for Lily. He is not the most extreme example of selflessness, though he will be something like that later on. As for helping Voldemort before: no, that is of course not selfless but I think I would probably judge his behaviour there along the lines of some other adjectives, the selfish-selfless scale does not seem to be the most relevant one. But when he goes to DD risking his life in several ways to save Lily (and that is what I talk about when I call him selfless), he is quite selfless and certainly more selfless than selfish. Quinn calls it "a bit of a gamble" (yes, gambling with his own life) - he could get killed not only by DD but by Voldemort as well if he found out what Snape had done. I am sure Snape does not expect to get any protection from DD and indeed he does not get any: he has to go back to Voldemort and test whether he is a good enough Occlumense to keep such dangerous information a secret from him. Again I repeat: if he is selfish, what do we call Lucius (who certainly does not voluntarily gamble with his life), Narcissa, Pettigrew, Voldemort, those who do not love anybody deeply enough to sacrifice and change for them? As Dryleaves says, Snape is on the right track now and what puts him on the right track is not his own interest (which can strongly be argued in the case of Lucius if we consider him to be on the right track at all in DH) but the interest of another person. He is leaving Voldemort when his position has just become stronger with him and risks losing everything for someone else. This does not seem to be what the average selfish person would do.
Some people are sure that Lucius changes in DH even though there is no definite evidence that he does (apart from becoming a broken man), at least in a moral sense. In the case of Snape, there is evidence for change: On one side of the equation for him, there are his life, his freedom and his wand, relative safety, Voldemort's favour, the possibility to gain power, some kind of future before him. If he is to keep all this, Lily may have to die (in theory, there is a chance that Voldemort might spare her life because he has promised). On the other side of the equation, there is a stronger chance for Lily to survive and the possibility of Snape losing all or some of the things mentioned above. He makes his choice. He gives up his old, bad ways and starts acting unselfishly, trying to save someone. I don't think it is very easy to voluntarily walk towards the strong possibility of death or imprisonment. If he was selfish before, he is becoming selfless now. He is changing and it is fair to acknowledge this.
mona amon - Aug 8, 2008 7:48 am (#152 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 8:53 am
I just feel that it is a little unfair to go on about how selfish Snape is on the hilltop and judge him for it. (Dryleaves)
Lol, Dryleaves, I'm not going on about how selfish he is on the hilltop to judge him, just making a point. It's because others feel that his action is unselfish and I don't agree with them, and when I don't agree with a post I leave all my urgent work undone, ignore the husband who's breathing down my neck and sit down to air my opinion! pathetic, but there it is!
Julia, I'll try to reply tomorrow!
Dryleaves - Aug 8, 2008 8:24 am (#153 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 10:03 am
LOL, Mona! I never meant that anyone wasn't welcome to disagree! On the contrary! I just felt a little sorry for Snape, that's all...
EDIT: As I see it, when Snape only cares about Lily on the hilltop he does it regardless of whether he will "have" her for himself or not. He wants her to be alive and well even if it is together with James Potter and their son. I think when DD shows his disgust with Snape and Snape says "save them all, then", Snape passes a test of DD's: he doesn't primarily want Lily for himself, he wants her to be well. Therefore I don't think he is all selfish.
Soul Search - Aug 8, 2008 9:30 am (#154 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 10:40 am
"save them all, then", ... "Snape passes a test of DD's: he doesn't primarily want Lily for himself, he wants her to be well." (Dryleaves)
Good observation. I agree. I still can't decide if Snape's interest in Lily, then, was romantic or just because they had been childhood friends. He also had to be feeling guilty because he passed the prophecy to Voldemort. I do note that even though the Potters had "defied the Dark Lord three times," and were still Voldemort's target, Snape had not previously gone to Dumbledore. His guilt had to be part of the reason he went to Dumbledore.
I am not sure how this all plays out for "self interest," or any kind of turnaround for Snape.
If he still had romantic hopes for Lily, then he is even more despicable than I thought and his acts are only self serving.
If he just wanted her to be well, then it was a selfless act and likely was his turnaround event.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 8, 2008 9:32 am (#155 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 10:41 am
Snape is on the right track now and what puts him on the right track is not his own interest but the interest of another person. - Julia
See, this is where I disagree, because I feel the two are one and the same. In other words that the "another person" is Snape's own interest. Again, had Voldemort targeted the Longbottoms instead, Snape would have done absolutely nothing to stop it because there was no stake in it for him personally. Besides, Snape isn't think anything of Lily's happiness, only his own. Even Dumbledore says so:
"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die as long as you have what you want?" Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.
Since JKR speaks through Dumbledore, I would say that this is what she wanted us to understand about Snape in this scene.
I don't think it is very easy to voluntarily walk towards the strong possibility of death or imprisonment - So, you don't think either of these possibilities ever occurred to him when he voluntarily signed on with a genocidal, extremely psychologically unbalanced megalomaniac with a world domination scheme? I mean, after serving under Voldemort, anything Dumbledore might do to him would have been cake.
ETA: "Save them all. then." Well, if it is a test, Snape failed miserably, as far as I'm concerned.
"Save them all, then". As in "No, Severus, you can't have a cookie. You can have a piece of fruit." "I'll have an orange, then."
This wasn't Snape's idea. He has been shamed into asking for it. Therefore, nothing has changed in his original intention.
PeskyPixie - Aug 8, 2008 9:42 am (#156 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 11:03 am
" ... had Voldemort targeted the Longbottoms instead, Snape would have done absolutely nothing to stop it because there was no stake in it for him personally." -Quinn
I agree, Quinn. Snape seeks to protect a person who is his (whether she reciprocates the feeling or not). He is only protecting one of his own, which is not necessarily selfish, but not as selfless as we'd like to imagine.
However, it is this ability to love, however narrow it may be, and his decision to plead with his Master's greatest enemy for the protection of his loved one which gives an indication of the bravery and latent good within him, which blooms under Dumbledore's guidance.
Lily not only saves her son with her death, she also saves the soul of her childhood friend.
ETA: As for going to Dumbledore, his "Don't kill me!" is a clear demonstration of his fears of facing 'The Only One He Ever Feared". Also, I think we have a pretty good idea that Death Eaters are well aware that the consequences of snitching on Voldy will not be pleasant. I don't have much pity for Snape's decision to join the DEs, but yes, once his Lily's life is threatened he is extremely brave in the steps he takes to attempt to save her.
ETA: "Save them all, then". As in "No, Severus, you can't have a cookie. You can have a piece of fruit." "I'll have an orange, then." This wasn't Snape's idea. He has been shamed into asking for it. Therefore, nothing has changed in his original intention."
I agree with most of this, Quinn. However, I don't think he ever considered that a baby's life is worth saving before this point. That's how far he had degraded himself. It takes Dumbledore's "You disgust me" to get him thinking that there may be something abnormal about his values. He doesn't internally change at that moment, but, IMO, this statement has an impact on him in the long run.
Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 10:00 am (#157 of 2988)
I do note that even though the Potters had "defied the Dark Lord three times," and were still Voldemort's target, Snape had not previously gone to Dumbledore. (Soul Search)
We know nothing about the details how they defied Voldemort therefore we do not even know whether Snape knew about it at all. When he heard the prophecy and repeated it to Voldemort, he certainly did not get that those who defied Voldemort three times may have been the Potters. Even DD says that Snape had no possible way of knowing who the prophecy referred to. So I conclude he did not know that Lily had defied Voldemort three times.
I am not sure how this all plays out for "self interest," or any kind of turnaround for Snape.
If he still had romantic hopes for Lily, then he is even more despicable than I thought and his acts are only self serving.
Whatever way he loved her if he had been put into Azkaban or killed, he would not have had much to hope for in connection with Lily (or anything) and yet he was willing to save her risking that. Besides, I cannot imagine that he did not know that Dumbledore would save the whole Potter family, including James. He did not care much for that but the possibility of the survival of James, Lily's husband, certainly did not stop him from going to DD. If he had wanted to save Lily for himself only, he would have been satisfied with Voldemort's promise, which would have been the perfect solution for him if he had had any selfish plans with Lily. What he really wanted was Lily to be well in whatever way it was best achieved.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 8, 2008 10:20 am (#158 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 11:25 am
I cannot imagine that he did not know that Dumbledore would save the whole Potter family, including James. - No, I don't think so. From the way the conversation actually went, it's clear enough to me that Snape, not only didn't care in the slightest about either James or baby Harry, he didn't even give them a moment's thought.
What he really wanted was Lily to be well in whatever way it was best achieved. - But how could he genuinely have wanted "Lily to be well" and not thought that her family being dead would completely negate that?
Orion - Aug 8, 2008 10:41 am (#159 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 11:42 am
"ETA: "Save them all. then." Well, if it is a test, Snape failed miserably, as far as I'm concerned. "Save them all, then". As in "No, Severus, you can't have a cookie. You can have a piece of fruit." "I'll have an orange, then." This wasn't Snape's idea. He has been shamed into asking for it. Therefore, nothing has changed in his original intention." (Quinn)
Agreed, Quinn. But at least Snape can be shamed into doing something. The problem are the people who can't. Try that with Bella or Lucius.
True, Snape has a selfish motif for trying to rescue Lily because she is his loved one. But: This is completely understandable and forgivable human behaviour. Nobody, when faced with the possible death of a loved one, thinks about completely unknown people first. Not even a saint. Well, yes, maybe a saint would. But saints are so terribly self-righteous that nobody can stand them.
And then, after the initial shock, Snape can indeed be shamed. And then he makes an admirable progression. It takes him years, but it is a lot more than many people would achieve, and he takes it to ridiculous extremes, until he practically dies on the job. That's the extent to which he has been shamed.
Dryleaves - Aug 8, 2008 10:42 am (#160 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 12:24 pm
"Save them all. then." Well, if it is a test, Snape failed miserably, as far as I'm concerned. "Save them all, then". As in "No, Severus, you can't have a cookie. You can have a piece of fruit." "I'll have an orange, then." This wasn't Snape's idea. He has been shamed into asking for it. Therefore, nothing has changed in his original intention. (Quinn)
I am not sure the cookie/fruit metaphor is really relevant. Snape will not have an orange instead of a cookie, he will have a cookie or nothing. OK, the hope for a cookie may still be there if Lily survives, but how realistic is it that she will change her mind, leave James and go with DE Snape instead?
I thought of this scene more as of DD clarifying to Snape what the choices in fact are and then Snape makes a choice. I do not think he necessarily has to come up with the suggestion himself, but he can still make the right choice. I think DD's disgust made him think about what his intention really was. If I change my mind about the metaphor and say that it after all is relevant, it would mean that DD made Snape think: "No; I don't want to get fat and ruin my teeth even more, I want to have all those vitamins and healthy stuff that an orange contains." Or something like that...
I see what you mean about the then, but I think Snape after the hilltop scene starts to eat oranges, first very reluctantly, but he wants to be an orange eater, not a cookie monster. I think it is unfair to judge an overweight person for their overweight if he/she has slowly started to live a healthier life. If you see what I mean. Metaphors often seem to halt (or was that a Swenglish expression..?)
EDIT: What I find horrible about Snape at that moment is that he couldn't care less about the fate of a baby, any baby. Also, this is his beloved's child who has been targetted by the Dark Lord. You don't have to be a saint to be concerned about this child's welfare. (Pesky)
I too find this horrible. But later he agrees to protect this child and ends up protecting other children as well. He is not the best of men when he goes to the hilltop, far from it. But he goes there. And he does not go back, but on. He may not reach sainthood, but he is not that far from it, I think.
(I guess I react because sometimes it seems like just because Snape in many ways is despicable on the hilltop (and before) what comes after does not count.)
PeskyPixie - Aug 8, 2008 11:03 am (#161 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 12:03 pm
Well, Orion, Harry is a bit of a saint when it come to his 'saving people' thing.
What I find horrible about Snape at that moment is that he couldn't care less about the fate of a baby, any baby. Also, this is his beloved's child who has been targetted by the Dark Lord. You don't have to be a saint to be concerned about this child's welfare.
However, I do agree that it says something about Snape's character that he can at least be shamed into doing the right thing, even as a Death Eater.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 8, 2008 11:11 am (#162 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 12:22 pm
I am not sure the cookie/fruit metaphor is really relevant. - I wasn't make a metaphor. I was trying to give another example of the tone in which Snape says, "Save them all, then". It's a concession, a compromise. Not what he originally intended or wanted. Still, this made me laugh: he wants to be an orange eater, not a cookie monster.
I agree, Orion. It's an important point that Snape can be shamed, as well as that pretty much everything he does throughout the rest of the series rests on this moment.
I also agree very strongly with Pesky. Anyone who could let a baby die - especially the baby of the woman he supposedly loves - is one messed up dude!
Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 11:31 am (#163 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 12:55 pm
See, this is where I disagree, because I feel the two are one and the same. In other words that the "another person" is Snape's own interest. Again, had Voldemort targeted the Longbottoms instead, Snape would have done absolutely nothing to stop it because there was no stake in it for him personally. Besides, Snape isn't think anything of Lily's happiness, only his own. (Quinn)
He is thinking of his own happiness but that happiness means that Lily stays alive - whatever Snape has to give up for that. It may be selfish to pursue what makes us happy (though most people do that), however, I think it counts very much what happiness means to a certain person. Happiness can mean becoming powerful or sitting on a pile of money or getting the coolest car available or bringing up children or helping the old and the disabled or discovering a new treatment for cancer, to mention just a few possibilites. A truly good person, a saint, someone full of charitable feelings may find true happiness in helping people while enduring terrible hardships in a war situation or in the depth of a jungle. I find this person totally selfless precisely because happiness for him/her is another person's well-being. Each mother who looks after an ill child finds happiness in his / her recovery and yet I don't find her motivation selfish. In your view, it seems a truly selfless person must be utterly unhappy because they only do things they do not want to do and their loved ones must be totally unhappy as well since this truly unselfish person would never do anything for them since it would mean doing something for himself / herself as well. (Concerning the Longbottoms, I have already explained my point.) Snape's own happiness, as he is pursuing it now, could be a cell in Azkaban, where he might end up sitting, knowing/hoping that Dumbledore is keeping Lily safe - at least until the dementors take these happy thoughts from him.
From the way the conversation actually went, it's clear enough to me that Snape, not only didn't care in the slightest about either James or baby Harry, he didn't even give them a moment's thought.
But how could he genuinely have wanted "Lily to be well" and not thought that her family being dead would completely negate that?
Now this is where I see a contradiction. Did Snape think about Lily's family being dead or not? I agree (if this is what you mean) that his mind was so full of Lily that he did not even consider that two other people were also concerned there. It is not admirable but when you are scared for the safety of someone you love, it is quite believable psychologically that you do not give much thought to other people involved in the same danger. (When a person hears about a plane crash in which their loved ones might be involved and runs like mad to get information I wonder what is more likely: that the person will want to learn what happened to every single passenger in alphabetical order or that they want to hear first and above all that their loved ones are well.)
Snape is too distressed and out of his mind with worry about Lily to think about anything else. (He can hardly speak properly.) That would perfectly explain why he did not say a word or why he said then when DD shamed him into thinking about Lily's family. I agree with the notion of "Snape being shamed into" seeing the broader context and it is good that it was possible to shame him into it. Shame may be a forerunner of remorse. In the latter sense, he may have passed that test: DD saw that there was hope for him and that was the moment when he asked Snape what he would be willing to do. But if he is - originally - not able to give a thought to the other two people, how can we expect him to think it over logically what Lily will think about the same people? If he does not give a thought to them, he cannot think that they might die. However, if Snape does think about Lily's husband and children being involved in the situation, then he - not being exactly stupid - must know that DD will not just save Lily but the whole family. That is what logic dictates.
So he either thinks and then he knows that going to DD means saving the whole family even though it is only Lily he cares for and then he has no reason to suppose that Lily will survive while her family members die. (But it is proof that he does not want to save Lily for himself, he only wants to save Lily.) Or he cannot think of anything else but Lily because of the psychological state he is in and in that case he cannot think about Lily's family being dead or alive at all and he cannot much think about any future issues either, only the immediate task of securing protection for Lily.
But how could he genuinely have wanted "Lily to be well" and not thought that her family being dead would completely negate that?
Hm.. I think one reason why Snape did not find Voldemort's promise satisfying is that he knew Lily quite well and he knew that Lily (protective as she was) would not just stand by or run away while her family were being killed and that may be a reason why he wanted Voldemort to be kept away from Lily / the Potters completely.
ETA: I agree with Orion. Snape was ultimately shamed into amazing things. But he needed that helping hand first and it is a pity he had not got it much earlier. It would probably have been possible to shame him into better choices before things went really wrong.
Letting the baby of his loved one die: Snape did not let Harry die. It was Harry who survived after all. Only in a dangerous situation he was thinking specifically about Lily because he loved Lily, which, as Orion says, is a general human trait, but saving Lily he also happened to be saving Harry. He could hardly have done more for Harry even if he had wanted to save specifically him. And he could have chosen to try to save Lily while really letting Harry and James die if he had stuck with Voldemort.
Questions: Is Lily selfish when he dies for her child? Her child's survival probably means happiness to her. She dies for someone who is hers. Is Harry selfish when he goes to the forest to die for all those people he loves?
Quinn Crockett - Aug 8, 2008 12:09 pm (#164 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 1:16 pm
It is not admirable but when you are scared for the safety of someone you love, it is quite believable psychologically that you do not give much thought to other people involved in the same danger. - When one of those "other people" is an infant, I don't think it is believable at all. Call me naive, but I would like to think that that wouldn't be a normal response.
Ha! Julia, you seem doggedly determined to tweeze out even the most remotely possible altruistic intent on this character's part. But in my view, it just isn't there and you're not going to convince me that it is.
wynnleaf - Aug 8, 2008 12:38 pm (#165 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 1:41 pm
It is not admirable but when you are scared for the safety of someone you love, it is quite believable psychologically that you do not give much thought to other people involved in the same danger.
When one of those "other people" is an infant, I don't think it is believable at all. Call me naive, but I would like to think that that wouldn't be a normal response.
I know we've discussed this in the past, but I think that Snape's own childhood was not one that would cause a person to understand the value of a child versus any other person. At least from what we're shown, it does not appear that he was valued as a child by his parents, so he probably did not have that deep-seated notion that most of us have that the deaths or injury of babies and young children is somehow worse than the death or injury of an adult. In fact, people who don't have that kind of belief system, often in fact believe that the deaths of children are less bad than the deaths of adults. I'm thinking of when I lived in the Papua New Guinea highlands where, at least as far as I could see, children seemed to have less overall value than adults - perhaps because of mortality, I don't know. But my point is that we are conditioned by our culture to see the innocence of a baby or young child and it's dependence on adults as somehow making adults more responsible to care for the child than to care for an adult. But Snape had apparently grown up neglected without much care from his parents - therefore they did not teach him that adults should value children any more highly than anyone else.
Of course, Snape should have cared that any innocent person would get killed, but as has been pointed out, right or wrong, the typical human response is to focus on the safety of one's loved ones first, even if others are also at risk.
I liked Julia's use of the word "selfless". On a continuum between selfish and selfless, I think I'd consider anyone who risks their life for another - regardless how loved - as somewhat selfless, with the person who risks their life for a stranger perhaps the most selfless.
But remember that anyone who risks their life for another is still acting in some way or another out of self-interest, because they are acting based on their own set of values, their own belief structure, etc. In other words, if I see a stranger in trouble and decide to risk my life for them, it's because my values are such that I consider their life important. My beliefs are telling me that they have value in my understanding of what's important. So even if I save a stranger, it's because I am acting on what I value the most. Does that make it selfish? Well, it is a certain degree of self-interest, because it's my own value system that I'm upholding. But would I actually call it selfish? No.
Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 1:55 pm (#166 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 3:04 pm
When one of those "other people" is an infant, I don't think it is believable at all. Call me naive, but I would like to think that that wouldn't be a normal response. (Quinn)
But, Quinn, if Snape gives a thought to Harry the infant, then, as I have said, he will instantly know that informing DD will mean greater safety for the infant as well as for the mother. Then he can perfectly well go back thinking about the mother he loves.
As for what is the normal response: I agree with Wynnleaf that upbringing counts and also whether he has had any experience with babies or with the way adults treat babies or whether he has ever thought of starting a family of his own (given his situation, I don't think he has). He has never even seen that baby, in fact he may not have seen many babies at all, who knows... You know when I was expecting my first child, one day a 20-plus-year-old young man, who was standing next to his girl-friend, totally innocently and seriously asked me if it was not a bad feeling to have that baby moving about inside me. I stared at him with an expression of shock for a moment but then I smiled and quietly explained to him that it was one of the best feelings in the world. Since then I have known that there are young men (and perhaps not only young ones) who have no idea (yet) what a baby is. (Of course, I am not saying that all twenty-year-old men are like this.) Snape, in any case, has a lot to learn yet. This is precisely why I find it symbolic that he ends up with the specific task of protecting children. Yes, he has to be shamed into it because he has not brought the "normal attitude" from home.
Julia, you seem doggedly determined to tweeze out even the most remotely possible altruistic intent on this character's part.
It is because I find the willingness to sacrifice or even risk one's life for anyone else altruistic by definition. Even in situations where it is kind of natural (like in Lily's case), I find it altruistic. The instinct of survival is in all of us and is very strong and therefore it can only be overcome by something even stronger: strong love, for example, or a strong belief in a cause. I don't think everybody could find it in himself/herself to knowingly and voluntarily protect others instead of protecting oneself.
In Snape's case it is remarkable because he has experienced very little love in his life and currently he is under the worst type of influence possible and yet he finds enough love in himself, if only for one person, to sacrifice and to change. Then look how far this love will take him. I have said it before: the power that defeats Voldemort is love. Harry, because he can love, ultimately defeats Voldemort out there in the wizarding world. Snape, because he can love, ultimately defeats Voldemort inside himself. It starts here. In this sense Harry's story and Snape's story are the two sides of the same thing.
Other things I find very important are the strong willingness to prevent the result of the wrong he has done and the readiness to pay the price if necessary and also the sincerity with which he opens up to Dumbledore. He has no answers to DD's questions, which may be a shame, but it also means that he has not thought about how to behave, what to say, how to approach the old man, how to make himself liked. No occlumency here. He is kneeling there and though it is not his purpose, he opens up and shows who and what he really is. The good and the bad. He has no other thought but Lily. He knows he has done wrong and he accepts DD's strict words, he accepts the blame and the shame and he would probably be ready to accept worst things if that was DD's decision and he offers himself to whatever fate DD might choose for him. So it is not only DD's words I think that affect him in the long run but the whole experience he is going through and ultimately the experience of being - sort of - forgiven and helped and lifted from where he is.
He is only able to open up like this because he wants to save Lily. The next time he will open up to another person in a similar way will be when he gives Harry his memories to help him. Between these two experiences, one day Narcissa will come to him begging him on her knees to save her son. I think the hilltop experience comes back to him then, when he, instead of just sending Narcissa home, kneels down again, as he was kneeling on the hilltop, and takes her hand and takes the vow that will give her hope.
Orion - Aug 8, 2008 2:19 pm (#167 of 2988)
Normally I wholeheartedly agree with everything you write, Julia (separated at birth?), but Snape is rapidly turning into St Severus. In Spinner's End he is acting the spy, showing off in front of Bella and promising nothing he wasn't doing anyway. Narcissa is none the wiser about him when she departs because he leads her around in circles. And when he opens up to Harry he is sending him to his death, and the only thing he finds interesting in Harry are the eyes which, to him, don't belong to Harry, but to Harry's mum. It's not doing the character a favour to explain away the not so lovely sides. JM2K.
PeskyPixie - Aug 8, 2008 2:27 pm (#168 of 2988)
" ... if Snape gives a thought to Harry the infant, then, as I have said, he will instantly know that informing DD will mean greater safety for the infant as well as for the mother. Then he can perfectly well go back thinking about the mother he loves."
I just don't think that Snape is all that 'good' at this stage of the game, Julia. He needs to be 'bad' in order for the redemption storyline to be powerful.
Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 2:42 pm (#169 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 4:26 pm
No, Orion, not St. Severus. Only a poor, unhappy man, lost in life, who loves a woman and later the memory of a woman more than his life, more than anything else, and a man who is fighting a desperate, hopeless fight with destiny to erase a past that cannot be erased. But I do think he learns his lesson and the hilltop scene affects the rest of his life. In Spinner's End he is acting the spy, he is careful and cunning as he has to be. But there is an observable change in his behaviour during the scene. Even in the way he speaks, his gestures become different by the end. I don't think he wants to comfort Narcissa from the start or because he is a "saint". When she falls on the floor in desperation, something seems to happen to him. I have said he is an emotionally driven man and in that scene, there is a lot he can react to emotionally. DD's death, a woman begging him to save her son, someone begging for the life of a loved person threatened by Voldemort. I do hope that all the parallels between the hilltop scene and this scene were intentionally put there by JKR. (For example, she did not need to design the Unbreakable Vow with kneeling participants, it was her decision alone. Why?) What I like about this scene is that Snape is both a cunning, careful and skillful spy and a human being probably struggling inside with certain emotions. I know he does not promise anything he was not doing anyway. But the vow is important because that is the only thing that reassures Narcissa. He would do the same without the vow I know but Narcissa would not know it. That is the difference, the act of comforting. He knows how she must feel and tries to communicate it to her that he will save Draco but he must be careful not to betray that there is another plan besides Voldemort's. IMO it is a very well-written scene, in which one can easily discover new things at every reread.
And when he opens up to Harry he is sending him to his death, and the only thing he finds interesting in Harry are the eyes which, to him, don't belong to Harry, but to Harry's mum.
Yet even by sending Harry to his death, he is telling Harry how to achieve his goal. Harry can make his choice then. He is helping the light side with this, fulfilling his promise. Whatever his purpose is when he gives up his memories, it is something for other people, not himself, since he is already dying.
It's not doing the character a favour to explain away the not so lovely sides.
Hm.. I thought I was explaining his good sides, not explaining away his bad sides. I hardly ever discuss those. Snape has lots of faults I know but there are dozens of people explaining them on this forum so I don't think my participation is necessary there. They are also quite obvious from the books. It is more interesting for me to explore the less obvious.
Normally I wholeheartedly agree with everything you write...
I did not know! Sometimes I do need some encouragement.
He needs to be 'bad' in order for the redemption storyline to be powerful. (Pesky)
I don't think he is good. But I do think he has the potential to be good. I think he is bad because he has tried to be bad. "Life is bad, let's see what happens if I become bad, too." (There is a 20-th century play in my language about a man who realizes how bad everything in his life has become and decides to be bad himself as well, kind of saying to God "let's see what the two of us can do together". I don't think Snape made a conscious decision but something like that may have happened to him.) Snape has chosen to be bad and he is just about to realize that he cannot be. But he will not want to be good for quite a while yet even though he cannot be bad either. His destiny has to force him into the most extreme situation, in which he has to decide on being good or not.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 8, 2008 3:30 pm (#170 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 4:31 pm
But the vow is important because that is the only thing that reassures Narcissa. - Actually, this was entirely for Bellatrix's benefit, to assure her of his loyalty to Voldemort. Comforting Narcissa had nothing to do with it. In fact, it is Narcissa, equally cunning and shrewd in her own right, who suggests it.
Julia H. - Aug 8, 2008 4:12 pm (#171 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 5:17 pm
Well, Snape already assured Bellatrix of his loyalty earlier:
'If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak,' said Snape at once. 'The Dark Lord's word is law.'
Narcissa gasped as though he had doused her with cold water. Bellatrix looked satisfied for the first time since she had entered the house.
'There!' she said triumphantly to her sister. 'Even Snape says so: you were told not to talk, so hold your silence!'
Bellatrix could not be more satisfied than that and I don't see any reason why the conversation should continue after this point. Yet, Snape starts saying he knows about the plan by this giving Narcissa the opportunity to continue asking him. Why? Perhaps it is Snape's "saving people thing". Perhaps he considers Bellatrix capable of telling Voldemort that her own sister wanted to betray the secret plan and by confessing that he knows about the plan, he says it is not "treachery". (He almost as good as warns Narcissa to be more careful.) Anyway, in the end his whole manner towards Narcissa changes. And whatever his reasons are, the hilltop memory may well come back to him. The similarities are unmistakable.
But I agree with you about Narcissa. She knows what she is doing.
mona amon - Aug 8, 2008 8:38 pm (#172 of 2988)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 10:32 pm
True, Snape has a selfish motif for trying to rescue Lily because she is his loved one. But: This is completely understandable and forgivable human behaviour. Nobody, when faced with the possible death of a loved one, thinks about completely unknown people first. (Orion)
I agree that it is understandable, but Snape's case is a bit different. He did not think about unknown people first, last or at any time. He obviously felt it was quite ok if these unknown people were killed, as he was willingly aiding and abetting Voldemort who he knew was a murderer and a torturer.
So until Dumbledore's "You disgust me!", Snape is someone who thinks that other people's loved ones can be killed and it doesn't matter, only his loved one matters. That's selfish according to me. Also, he is so wrapped up in what he wants (Lily to be alive) that he doesn't even consider what she might want. It doesn't occur to him that she'd probably rather die than have her husband and baby murdered in front of her.
Hm.. I think one reason why Snape did not find Voldemort's promise satisfying is that he knew Lily quite well and he knew that Lily (protective as she was) would not just stand by or run away while her family were being killed and that may be a reason why he wanted Voldemort to be kept away from Lily / the Potters completely. (Julia)
Julia, somehow I just can't imagine that the Snape of that period would have thought all that. He just knew that Voldemort was not the type who could be trusted to keep a promise. And at the beginning of the hilltop scene, he does not seem to be at all aware that DD will try to save Harry and James as well.
Only a poor, unhappy man, lost in life, who loves a woman and later the memory of a woman more than his life, more than anything else, and a man who is fighting a desperate, hopeless fight with destiny to erase a past that cannot be erased. (Julia)
LOL, Julia, this also sounds very much like St. Sev to me. But go ahead, don't allow us to cramp your style!
BTW, I agree that that he does start changing, even while he's on the hilltop.
ETA: And that he was very brave, even before that.
Solitaire - Aug 8, 2008 9:34 pm (#173 of 2988)
As for going to Dumbledore, his "Don't kill me!" is a clear demonstration of his fears of facing 'The Only One He Ever Feared".
I thought "The Only One He Ever Feared" was referring to Voldemort's fear of Dumbledore, not Snape's. Why would Snape fear Dumbledore?
As to Snape's selfishness or selflessness ... we know from "The Prince's Tale" that he did none of this for Harry. Everything was done for Lily. I do not have my books with me, but I do know he says as much, right before he casts his Patronus while meeting with Dumbledore. In one of her interviews, Jo said that if Lily had not been in the picture, Snape would have done nothing to help Harry. I personally believe that if he had not given Dumbledore his word that he would do all to help Lily's son, Snape would have walked away and left Harry to his fate ... whatever that my have been.
Snape is too distressed and out of his mind with worry about Lily to think about anything else. (He can hardly speak properly.) That would perfectly explain why he did not say a word or why he said then when DD shamed him into thinking about Lily's family.
I thought Dumbledore queried Snape as to whether he had asked Voldemort if he would spare Lily in exchange for giving up Harry, and Snape said something like, "I have asked." (Again, I do not have my book, so I cannot check the place or exact wording.) This would indicate that he had given some thought to the matter and had possibly explored various scenarios. Knowing Lily as he did, however, Snape must have known without even bothering to ask that she would never abandon her husband or child. Dumbledore knew it, too.
Orion: I still stick to my original opinion: If Parseltongue is a magical language that you either have or have not, then Ron cannot reproduce it, period. He doesn't only manage to say one word, but the brass tap actually obeys and opens!!! Then I must conclude that Hogwarts needs Parseltongue on its curriculum and some Parselmouth to teach it. End of off-topic subject. Ceterum censeo...
Jo has said in one of her post-DH interviews that when the bit of Voldemort that was residing in Harry is blasted out, he no longer speaks or understands Parseltongue. So, yes, it is a rare and special gift. Dumbledore, I think, refers to Salazar Slytherin's "own special gift" of Parseltongue when he first tells Harry in CoS that Voldemort "put a bit of himself" in Harry. In other words, I'm not sure it is something that can be taught ... although perhaps it can. Dumbledore spoke Mermish and Gobbledegook. Did he also speak and/or understand Parseltongue? I'm thinking of the memory where we first see the Gaunts ...
The fact that Ron is able to imitate Parseltongue well enough to open the Chamber of Secrets ... well, does that need some commentary by Jo? Is it simple plot manipulation?
one day Narcissa will come to him begging him on her knees to save her son. I think the hilltop experience comes back to him then
Once again, Snape is trapped into doing something here. He has already made a promise to Dumbledore, and now, with Bella standing there casting doubt upon his loyalty to Voldemort, Snape really has no choice but to agree to help Draco and make the Unbreakable Vow. These two promises lock him into a course of action he does not want to take ... but he has given his word, so he is stuck. Ah, I see Quinn has beat me to the punch here. I'm writing as I'm catching up on nearly 60 posts on this thread, and not all of them are short!
Solitaire
Solitaire - Aug 8, 2008 9:37 pm (#174 of 2988)
As for going to Dumbledore, his "Don't kill me!" is a clear demonstration of his fears of facing 'The Only One He Ever Feared".
I thought "The Only One He Ever Feared" was referring to Voldemort's fear of Dumbledore, not Snape's. Why would Snape fear Dumbledore?
As to Snape's selfishness or selflessness ... we know from "The Prince's Tale" that he did none of this for Harry. Everything was done for Lily. I do not have my books with me, but I do know he says as much, right before he casts his Patronus while meeting with Dumbledore. In one of her interviews, Jo said that if Lily had not been in the picture, Snape would have done nothing to help Harry. I personally believe that if he had not given Dumbledore his word that he would do all to help Lily's son, Snape would have walked away and left Harry to his fate ... whatever that my have been.
Snape is too distressed and out of his mind with worry about Lily to think about anything else. (He can hardly speak properly.) That would perfectly explain why he did not say a word or why he said then when DD shamed him into thinking about Lily's family.
I thought Dumbledore queried Snape as to whether he had asked Voldemort if he would spare Lily in exchange for giving up Harry, and Snape said something like, "I have asked." (Again, I do not have my book, so I cannot check the place or exact wording.) This would indicate that he had given some thought to the matter and had possibly explored various scenarios. Knowing Lily as he did, however, Snape must have known without even bothering to ask that she would never abandon her husband or child. Dumbledore knew it, too.
Orion: I still stick to my original opinion: If Parseltongue is a magical language that you either have or have not, then Ron cannot reproduce it, period. He doesn't only manage to say one word, but the brass tap actually obeys and opens!!! Then I must conclude that Hogwarts needs Parseltongue on its curriculum and some Parselmouth to teach it. End of off-topic subject. Ceterum censeo...
Jo has said in one of her post-DH interviews that when the bit of Voldemort that was residing in Harry is blasted out, he no longer speaks or understands Parseltongue. So, yes, it is a rare and special gift. Dumbledore, I think, refers to Salazar Slytherin's "own special gift" of Parseltongue when he first tells Harry in CoS that Voldemort "put a bit of himself" in Harry. In other words, I'm not sure it is something that can be taught ... although perhaps it can. Dumbledore spoke Mermish and Gobbledegook. Did he also speak and/or understand Parseltongue? I'm thinking of the memory where we first see the Gaunts ...
The fact that Ron is able to imitate Parseltongue well enough to open the Chamber of Secrets ... well, does that need some commentary by Jo? Is it simple plot manipulation?
one day Narcissa will come to him begging him on her knees to save her son. I think the hilltop experience comes back to him then
Once again, Snape is trapped into doing something here. He has already made a promise to Dumbledore, and now, with Bella standing there casting doubt upon his loyalty to Voldemort, Snape really has no choice but to agree to help Draco and make the Unbreakable Vow. These two promises lock him into a course of action he does not want to take ... but he has given his word, so he is stuck. Ah, I see Quinn has beaten me to the punch here. I'm writing as I'm catching up on nearly 60 posts on this thread, and not all of them are short!
Solitaire
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 12:06 am (#175 of 2988)
He did not think about unknown people first, last or at any time. (Mona)
It is so but when he was reminded of them, he did feel ashamed.
It doesn't occur to him that she'd probably rather die than have her husband and baby murdered in front of her.
Snape knew how protective Lily was of her sister (tree), of Mary (Mulciber), of Snape (Worst Memory), I don't think he needed to think logically to realize (I think he could realize it at once) that Voldemort's promise was valid only as far as Lily would quietly accept the favour of being left alive while her family were being murdered and that she was not at all likely to do that. Also Voldemort had just identified Lily to him as someone who had defied him three times together with James. It made it even more likely that she would fight again. As I imagine, Snape's first, terrified reaction to the news was asking LV to spare Lily. After this, Snape immediately or soon realized how unlikely it was that Voldemort and Lily would somehow "agree" on the scenario Voldemort was promising and that yes, promise or not, Voldemort would not spare her in the end. Since Snape was ready to sacrifice for someone he loved, he could know Lily was also ready. Voldemort, as we see in DH, could perfectly well imagine that Lily would not fight if he told her she could stay alive. It is because he himself was not able to make sacrifices for anyone. We could be sure it did not occur to Snape that Lily would rather die than see her family murdered if he had quietly waited for LV to fulfill his promise. With all this, he was thinking about saving her alone, but he knew her well and he knew the safest thing was for her not even to be near LV at all.
Not a saint, Mona, someone who is struggling with the evil he once did for the rest of his life does not need to be a saint. But he changes a lot and goes a long way.
As to Snape's selfishness or selflessness ... we know from "The Prince's Tale" that he did none of this for Harry. Everything was done for Lily. Solitaire
This seems to be something we all agree on. What we are debating is whether it is selfish behaviour or not to sacrifice or risk our lives for someone we love. I, personally, feel that very few people in the world could be called selfless according to the standards of some people here. (The question came up from the comparison of Lucius and Snape on the Lucius thread.)
Knowing Lily as he did, however, Snape must have known without even bothering to ask that she would never abandon her husband or child. Dumbledore knew it, too.
That is exactly what I am trying to say. I think this is the reason why he went to DD. He only wanted to save Lily, yes, but he must have realized that the difference between LV's promise and DD's help was that DD would not stop at saving only Lily. He knew Lily would be the safest if she did not have to defend anyone in her family.
Regarding the Vow, Solitaire, I have already answered to you and Quinn a few posts ago. I said Snape could have got rid of the two women much earlier and even if he was trapped into making the vow, he may have wanted to reassure Narcissa (he was going to save Draco anyway, only Narcissa did not know) and he may have felt compassion precisely because Narcissa's plight was so similar to his own before. The vow was not at all his idea but he was trying to reassure her anyway - and then, yes, he took the vow and he could take it for more than one reason:
Snape did not look at Bellatrix. His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand.
'Certainly, Narcissa, I shall make the Unbreakable Vow,' he said quietly.
Last edited by Mona on Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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wynnleaf - Aug 9, 2008 3:33 am (#176 of 2988)
Edited Aug 9, 2008 4:36 am
In one of her interviews, Jo said that if Lily had not been in the picture, Snape would have done nothing to help Harry. I personally believe that if he had not given Dumbledore his word that he would do all to help Lily's son, Snape would have walked away and left Harry to his fate ... whatever that my have been.(Solitaire)
I think JKR was talking about Snape's initial agreement to help Harry, not his helping of Harry at the time of the series. Because it wouldn't make any sense. By the last years of his life, Snape helped numerous people who had nothing at all to do with Lily and certainly weren't related to her.
So while yes, I agree that initially were it not for Lily Snape would never have helped Harry, but I don't think JKR's comments fit Snape later in life, because later he helped others with no relation to Lily, and therefore one must assume that his helping Harry was no longer just because he was Lily's son, but also because Snape was now willing to save anyone he could.
On the Vow, I think Snape got into the whole thing initially because he was trying to play the loyal Death Eater. But I don't think that's why he went ahead with the Vow. Can anyone actually picture other real Death Eaters willing to take an Unbreakable Vow and risk their own lives just to agree to keep Draco Malfoy safe? Especially when they'd know that LV didn't particularly care anything about Draco's safety? Of course not. Bella wasn't out there risking her life to protect Draco, right? And nor would any other loyal Death Eater.
No, Snape didn't go so far as to take the Vow because he had to show he was loyal, when no other loyal DE would put his life on the line for Draco's safety. Instead, I think Snape was willing to take the Vow because he already knew that he was willing to risk his life to help protect Draco.
Personally, I don't think Snape's willingness to put his life on the line to protect Draco was due to his pity or sympathy for Narcissa, although he does seem to exhibit pity for her. I think Snape had already become a person willing to risk his life to save anyone he could, and Draco was one of those people he felt he might be able to save. Whether he had any particular special concern for Draco we don't know.
Oh, and willingness to risk his life for Draco is just another example of someone who had nothing to do with Lily, yet Snape wouldn't just walk away from them without helping.
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 3:49 am (#177 of 2988)
Personally, I don't think Snape's willingness to put his life on the line to protect Draco was due to his pity or whatever for Narcissa. (Wynnleaf)
That is not what I said either. He knew he was going to save Draco before Narcissa'a visit. But he could have simply told Narcissa "we must all obey the Dark Lord and there is nothing else we can do" (as indeed he did say something similar in the beginning) "be happy to sacrifice your son for the Dark Lord, as Bellatrix says" - that would have sounded as a loyal DE - and then he could have still saved Draco according to the original plan between DD and himself. But he let Narcissa speak even when he seemed to feel that he should not and then tried to tell her he would "try" to help Draco. That was to reassure and comfort Narcissa. Then Narcissa, seeing his willingness, immediately asked him to take the vow. So he took the vow both to reassure her and because it would have been difficult to turn back at that point but it was Snape who had initially let things get that far. I think the moment when Narcissa fell on the floor (as Snape had fell on his knees in front of DD) and Snape lifted her (touched her) was a turning point. And in his changed manner towards Narcissa (it is a gradual change and I like the way it is described) I do see something that can be compassion or at least the ability to relate Narcissa's plight to his own plight on the hilltop, where he did get a helping hand from DD.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 9, 2008 10:35 am (#178 of 2988)
Edited Aug 9, 2008 11:39 am
The whole point, Julia, is that taking the Vow was never in direct contradiction to what Snape was already doing. He already knew he would have to kill Dumbledore, already knew about Draco's "assignment". Sure, he could have sent the sisters on their way with a terse, "You should never have come here". But, really, where was the harm in observing the niceties, as even Voldemort, himself, advises? Besides, Snape and the Malfoys were clearly old friends. To have acted rudely may have actually drawn more attention to his behavior.
And remember that it wasn't just Bellatrix who had doubts about Snape's loyalty. Wormtail was there too and had already been caught eavesdropping once. The Vow may very well have been for his benefit, to make it clear that, one way or another, Dumbledore would be killed - which was, after all, Voldemort's primary interest.
wynnleaf - Aug 9, 2008 11:26 am (#179 of 2988)
Prior to asking for an Unbreakable Vow, Narcissa's entire focus toward Snape was in asking him to protect Draco - not to kill DD. Further, when Snape first agreed to do what Narcissa wanted, it was, once again, to protect Draco, not to kill DD. Then when Narcissa asked for the Vow, it was to protect Draco, with once again, no mention of fulfilling his mission for him. It wasn't until Snape had already complete two thirds of the Vow that Narcissa threw in the part about fulfilling the Vow.
Therefore, Snape did not agree to the Vow to show anything about his own willingness to kill DD. He got into it over the question of protecting Draco. And that's the part that really, as a Death Eater, he did not need to do in order to show loyalty to LV. LV couldn't care less if Draco was killed. It might even have been okay with him, as it would have punished Lucius. So Snape did not need to go to the extreme point of taking a Vow to protect Draco, in order to convince anyone he was loyal to LV. Sure, it helped to pursuade Bella, because Narcissa added in the part about completing the mission for Draco if he should fail. But that wasn't the initial reason for the Vow, and therefore it is highly unlikely that whatever Snape's purposes were in taking the Vow, they had anything to do with a desire to prove to others that he would be willing to kill DD himself.
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 11:34 am (#180 of 2988)
Edited Aug 9, 2008 12:42 pm
The whole point, Julia, is that taking the Vow was never in direct contradiction to what Snape was already doing. He already knew he would have to kill Dumbledore, already knew about Draco's "assignment". (Quinn)
I am perfectly aware of that. I think I even said so. Still, sending home the ladies with a "sorry I cannot do anything" would have been the safest and most probable thing a typical DE would have done - friendship or not. He could have been still polite and kind. (Lucius himself would not have done otherwise.) I don't think Voldemort would have been happy to know that his DE's made an unofficial alliance behind his back. Remember he did not only want to get DD killed but he wanted to punish Lucius through Draco and these three were certainly preventing that. (As far as we know at that point Snape only suspected that Voldemort wanted him to do the "job" in the end, it seems he had not been officially told yet.) It is not an accident that Snape sent Wormtail up the stairs and out of earshot.
To have acted rudely may have actually drawn more attention to his behavior.
Snape is kind to Narcissa but does not even try any niceties toward Bella. There is this clear difference even though it is Bella he should in theory convince and it is Narcissa who is sneaking behind LV's back. Yes, Snape tries to be careful and keep the situation in control as much as he can. But it does not mean that he, at the same time, cannot understand Narcissa's fears, especially because of the similarities between them. The scene is written in such a way that Snape's behaviour changes: in the beginning he turns away from Narcissa, tells her there is no hope to persuade LV, Draco must try, he even tells her Draco might succeed, which he knows Narcissa knows is not true. This is the cautious part of his behaviour but it suddenly changes and he talks to her in a different way: he stops pretending Draco might succeed and other things and tries to explain to her that he would try to help. First he turned away from her, now he looks into her eyes, first he removed her clutching hands, now he does not, first he talked to her with the air of authority, now he kneels in front of her. The change is obvious and I think it is because he is reminded of something and he understands her. He realizes Narcissa is experiencing now what he experienced many years ago: LV is threatening someone she loves. Yes, I know, he can take the vow in any case (though he does seem to be surprised at first) but the way he does it - after DH - indicates that he is aware of and touched by the similarities between Narcissa and his earlier self.
BTW, should DD now announce a change in his plans, Snape would be in great trouble.
It is the merit of the HP books that several layers of meaning can be found in certain scenes. You can find and understand more after reading and re-reading and when you know the whole story and can connect far away parts.
Orion - Aug 9, 2008 12:02 pm (#181 of 2988)
"The scene is written in such a way that Snape's behaviour changes: in the beginning he turns away from Narcissa, tells her there is no hope to persuade LV, Draco must try, he even tells her Draco might succeed, which he knows Narcissa knows is not true. This is the cautious part of his behaviour but it suddenly changes and he talks to her in a different way: he stops pretending Draco might succeed and other things and tries to explain to her that he would try to help. First he turned away from her, now he looks into her eyes, first he removed her clutching hands, now he does not, first he talked to her with the air of authority, now he kneels in front of her. The change is obvious and I think it is because he is reminded of something and he understands her." (Julia)
The scene is written in a way that Snape acts extremely stagey. I find it hard to detect any real emotion in his behaviour because he acts as if his emotions are supposed to appear real, but in fact they are part of his act. It's hard to explain. But the whole thing is so false. The language! Compare it to Ron, or Fred and George, their witty, flowing dialogue. And then these three remnants of the past - horrible. As if the whole cast of Dracula had reared out of their coffins.
"BTW, should DD now announce a change in his plans, Snape would be in great trouble." Who cares??? DD intends him to die anyway. The whole story can only work if Snape dies. He's the spanner in the works.
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 12:08 pm (#182 of 2988)
Edited Aug 9, 2008 1:10 pm
Orion, when does (the adult) Snape ever talk or act or behave like any of the dunderheads you mention? He belongs to a different age ( and I don't mean just twenty years before) and a different wizarding style / tradition.
Besides, the situation is extremely unusual to him. He ends up holding somebody's hand.
PeskyPixie - Aug 9, 2008 4:51 pm (#183 of 2988)
"As for going to Dumbledore, his "Don't kill me!" is a clear demonstration of his fears of facing 'The Only One He Ever Feared"." -Pesky
"I thought "The Only One He Ever Feared" was referring to Voldemort's fear of Dumbledore, not Snape's. Why would Snape fear Dumbledore?" -Soli
I haven't had a chance to go through all of the posts, just popping in to clarify something.
Soli, I used 'The Only One He Ever Feared' to refer to the fact that even a wizard as powerful as Lord Voldemort fears Dumbledore. Thus, it is natural for a less powerful enemy (for that is what Snape is to Dumbledore prior to his meeting upon the hilltop) to fear him as well.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 9, 2008 7:56 pm (#184 of 2988)
I find it hard to detect any real emotion in his behaviour because he acts as if his emotions are supposed to appear real, but in fact they are part of his act. - Orion
I know what you mean, Orion and I agree with you ("cast of Dracula" and all ). I think the formality of his language is another way to keep his distance. I don't think there's any need to call Ron or the Twins names, though.
Solitaire - Aug 9, 2008 8:51 pm (#185 of 2988)
therefore one must assume that his helping Harry was no longer just because he was Lily's son, but also because Snape was now willing to save anyone he could.
Again, we must agree to disagree. I take his response to Dumbledore near the end of The Prince's Tale--"For him?"--to mean that he still cared nothing for Harry. It was done for Lily. Period.
No, Snape didn't go so far as to take the Vow because he had to show he was loyal, when no other loyal DE would put his life on the line for Draco's safety. Again, I see it differently. At Spinner's End, Snape gives Bella quite an extensive account of his actions from the time he took a position at Hogwarts to the present time, ostensibly to show her why Voldemort trusts him. Since he was already going to be watching over and protecting Draco--and, in the end, taking Dumbledore's life--the only reasons I can see for his taking the Unbreakable Vow are to reassure Narcissa and to shut Bella's big, fat mouth. Personally, I suspect Snape was hoping that Dumbledore's "exit" from this life might be played out differently, but the Vow cornered him and forced him to play it all out as we saw it. JM2K, but that's how I see it.
I think Snape had already become a person willing to risk his life to save anyone he could, and Draco was one of those people he felt he might be able to save. Again, Snape was simply fulfilling his promise to Dumbledore, at this point. I do not think he was at the point of "risking" just yet, based on his comment when Dumbledore asks him how many men and women he has watched die: Lately, only those whom I could not save." It sounds like he is still biding his time ... although we do understand why. Something about the statement makes me think he has seen others die in his lifetime and did not attempt to save them ... possibly when he was a young DE, before Lily and James were killed.
Solitaire
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 11:36 pm (#186 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 1:16 am
"Lately, only those whom I could not save." It sounds like he is still biding his time ... although we do understand why. Something about the statement makes me think he has seen others die in his lifetime and did not attempt to save them ... possibly when he was a young DE, before Lily and James were killed. (Solitaire)
I think the quote means that now he will not watch people die without doing anything if he can save them and I think the quote is both a reference to the various situations in which Snape has saved / will save or try to save someone, e.g. Lupin, and a reference to a situation in which he does not save someone, namely Charity Barbage. IMO JKR throws in that sentence partly to explain that in that case Snape did not try to save her because he could not. (If he had tried, both would likely have died and Snape still had his jobs to do. It is the same that while Harry was willing to die to save the wizarding world and was usually ready to risk his life for his friends, yet, when Xeno told him he wanted to hand him over to the DE's to save Luna, Harry did not say "OK, I would do that for her". It would have been a pointless sacrifice, Luna still might not have been released and Harry's vital mission would have failed.) Snape's sentence is also an assertion of change: I agree that as a DE he must have seen people die without feeling the urge to save them. (And DD keeps on rubbing it in even after all these years and important changes.)
I think the formality of his language is another way to keep his distance. I don't think there's any need to call Ron or the Twins names, though. (Quinn)
I thought we were allowed to joke... As for keeping his distance, yes, Snape is trying to keep his distance, as he always does. It is both a habit and a precaution. (The only person he is less distant with is DD.) This does not mean he cannot understand Narcissa's situation or feelings.
wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2008 3:57 am (#187 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 4:58 am
"Lately, only those whom I could not save."
This comment, while we read it in DH, is actually made by Snape to DD only a few months after Snape made the Vow. Since we aren't shown anything particularly life changing happening in between those two events, I think we are to assume that "lately" is more than just the past few weeks or months, but more like the past year or so since LV's return. That is "lately" in comparison to the many years since Snape watched many die as a Death Eater and probably as a spy prior to LV's first downfall.
By the last couple of years of Snape's life, he saves or attempts to save people with no relation to Lily at all. Therefore it makes no sense for JKR to have meant that Snape only did what he did because of Lily. I do think that Snape would assert that himself, that he only did it for Lily, at least as regards his willingness to help Harry, and in fact Snape does assert that with his "Always!" But in actual practice, he does things that have little to nothing to do with Lily.
Yes, it was definitely for Lily that he turned to DD. It was definitely only for Lily that he started spying. And Lily remained his sort of symbol, if you will, for why he was continuing to sacrifice so much. If Snape had never loved Lily, he would never have done those things. But I also think that after LV returned, if Snape had ever reached a point of being able to put his love and grief for Lily into the past and get over it, he would still have continued to help the Order - because by then he was already doing a great deal that he didn't need to do for Lily specifically.
Julia H. - Aug 10, 2008 6:37 am (#188 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 7:39 am
I agree with Wynnleaf. Snape did the spying and lying and all the dangerous tasks to keep Lily's son safe. However, in the process, he saved the lives of other people and very likely it became a habit of his. All in the name of Lily but not directly for Lily's sake.
The "Lately, only those whom I could not save." line seems to be a bit similar to the "And my soul, Dumbledore?" line because it also seems to be indignant though not as much as the other one. It seems to indicate that Snape is aware of the change he has gone through and is reminding Dumbledore that he is a different person now. The past cannot be changed but the present is different.
I'd like to finish my part in the debate about Snape the "DE saint" by summarizing my opinion once again. I do not expect anyone to agree.
1) Snape the DE is undoubtedly bad and there is a lot he should be ashamed of. It is wrong that he is in the organization, that he follows LV's orders. However, there is one single good part in him, his selfless love for Lily and Lily alone. This is what makes it possible for him to change. Even though he needs DD's help and he needs to be (and luckily can be) shamed into seeing his life and his ways in a true light, it is this love and the ability to sacrifice for Lily that makes him worthy of help and - ultimately - redemption.
2) Regarding Harry: no, Snape does not think of saving Harry. It is wrong. He can oly think of Lily. However, as he goes to DD, his behaviour is still not the same as selling Harry to save Lily. If he had stuck with Voldemort's promise, we could fairly accuse him of this. (Although even when he asks LV, he is not making a deal with him - how could he? What he can tell him can be no more than a request to spare the least dangerous or his victims.) Luckily, Snape turns away from LV to save Lily more completely, which happens to include saving Harry. This proves at least that it was not his intention to get Harry (or James) killed.
3) He starts to change and later, in the last years of his life, he is a much better person. It is fair to see that and judge him differently.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 10, 2008 9:12 am (#189 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 10:21 am
I don't think there's any need to call Ron or the Twins names, though. - Crockett
I thought we were allowed to joke... - Julia
Yes, please! I was actually attempting to do so. Sorry, I'll put a little smiley face next time.
------------------
But in actual practice, he does things that have little to nothing to do with Lily. - Wynnleaf
I think what Snape means by his assertion of "always" is that he hasn't only been trying to make up for his part in sending a genocidal super-villain after her, but also trying to become the man she always wanted.
Snape did the spying and lying and all the dangerous tasks to keep Lily's son safe - Julia
Well, "spying and lying" is pretty much it, really. I mean, what other "dangerous tasks" did he do? Prior to DH, I'm talking about, where the war had begun in earnest and absolutely everyone was in constant danger.
However, as he goes to DD, his behaviour is still not the same as selling Harry to save Lily.
That's certainly not the way Dumbledore sees it. You say that Snape "isn't making a deal" with Voldemort when he asks him to spare Lily. Yet when Dumbledore accuses him of this ("Perhaps you could ask Lord Voldemort to spare the mother in exchange for the son.") Snape's response is immediate: "I have."
wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2008 9:22 am (#190 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 10:27 am
I think what Snape means by his assertion of "always" is that he hasn't only been trying to make up accidentally sending a genocidal super-villain after her, but also trying to become the man she always wanted. (Quinn)
Hey, Quinn, I actually mostly agree!
Although I see it a bit different. I tend to think of it a little like the way the old chivalry system was supposed to work where you have a knight using an unattainable lady as a kind of symbol or standard to which he kind of commits everything he does -- it's all done for her. But not in a direct sense, as though the lady is actually going to see and give approval, or even return his love (remember she's unattainable). But instead, the lady becomes more of an inspiration.
At first, right after Lily's death, I think Snape is doing things directly for Lily and for her memory, wanting to save the child that is directly a part of Lily, her son, her blood. But as the years go by he's not just interested in saving what is directly a part of Lily, but instead living up to a standard which, for him, Lily somehow represents.
While Snape still has a lot of emotionally immature responses to Harry, I think his transition from doing things only to save what is directly Lily's, to using her as a kind of standard or symbol for his actions to benefit far more than just what is directly related to Lily, shows a much greater maturity in this particular area than a basic notion that one might get from JKR's words, that he only did anything because of Lily.
That's certainly not the way Dumbledore sees it. (Quinn)
While I agree with you Quinn, I don't agree with Dumbledore. I think DD tended to misread Snape on a number of occasions and in particular over this supposed "deal" with LV. Later, just after Lily's death, DD says that Snape trusted LV to save her, which should be obviously untrue, as it was because Snape didn't trust LV to save Lily that he came to DD.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 10, 2008 9:59 am (#191 of 2988)
Are you referring to the "Like you, they put their faith in someone untrustworthy" remark Dumbledore says to Snape during his breakdown in Dumbledore's office? Because I always thought Dumbledore was referring there Snape originally joining up with Voldemort and supporting his ideals, not to his "deal" to spare Lily.
Sort of along the lines of, "You were mistaken to believe that Voldemort would only ever harm those nameless and faceless 'others' who mean nothing to you."
Hm. Maybe you're right and he was referring to the "deal".
mona amon - Aug 10, 2008 8:28 pm (#192 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 9:47 pm
I think this is the reason why he went to DD. He only wanted to save Lily, yes, but he must have realized that the difference between LV's promise and DD's help was that DD would not stop at saving only Lily. He knew Lily would be the safest if she did not have to defend anyone in her family. (Julia)
But did he visualise a scenario where Lily would have to choose between her life and that of her husband or child? I somehow don't think he did. He probably thought that Voldemort would hunt them down, kill Harry and James, and perhaps spare Lily, as he had agreed to it. But he couldn't be sure that this homicidal maniac would not kill Lily as well, just to complete the job. From the beginning of the conversation on the hilltop, it is clear that the idea that DD would save the whole family never occurred to him.
I think DD tended to misread Snape on a number of occasions and in particular over this supposed "deal" with LV. Later, just after Lily's death, DD says that Snape trusted LV to save her, which should be obviously untrue, as it was because Snape didn't trust LV to save Lily that he came to DD. (Wynnleaf)
I don't think either of these quotes is supposed to be taken too literally. "She and James put their faith in the wrong person"..."Rather like you, Severus." (ie. not entirely like you, only a bit) "Weren't you hoping that Voldemort would spare her?" (This is probably something that Snape was hoping, even if DD's plan failed.) I think JKR puts in that quote mainly to remind us about why Lily's sacrifice had such an unusual protective effect.
"Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"- Taken literally, this remark is meaningless. Snape did not own Harry's life to be offering it to LV in exchange for Lily's, and of course DD knew this. What Dumbledore is doing here is testing Snape's attitude. Did he care at all about the life of anyone other than Lily? Snape could at least have tried to explain to DD how pointless it would have been for him to try and bargain for Harry's life as well. Instead he answers in a way that indicates that he worded his request to Voldemort along the lines of "Kill the child, but please, for my sake, spare the mother."
There is a difference between a person who cares for human life in general, but in a crisis thinks (quite naturally) only of the life of the one most dear to him, and the person who does not care a jot for human life in general, but wants to save the life of a person he loves. Dumbledore tests Snape to find out which category he belongs to, and he fails the test.
Then comes test#2. "You disgust me! You do not care then about the deaths of her husband and child?..." This time Dumbledore is trying to find out whether this young man has any good in him (other than his love for Lily, which is clearly not enough), whether he is amenable to change. And Snape shows that, even if he doesn't yet care about Harry and James' lives, he at least feels ashamed. This time he passes the test. (Yay!!! I love the Hilltop scene!)
---------------------
the only reasons I can see for his taking the Unbreakable Vow are to reassure Narcissa and to shut Bella's big, fat mouth. Personally, I suspect Snape was hoping that Dumbledore's "exit" from this life might be played out differently, but the Vow cornered him and forced him to play it all out as we saw it. JM2K, but that's how I see it. (Soli)
This is more or less the way I see it as well. I also agree with Orion that it is stagey. Snape is completely into his double-agent role, and Narcissa I feel is being sly and manipulative while pretending to be utterly helpless. An extremely interesting scene, with all the various tensions and hidden agendas. I'm waiting to see it in the movie! Bella is the only one who is not acting a part.
I feel that Snape's compassion for Narcissa was genuine, but that it was a rather unwilling reaction to her extreme distress (which I also believe to be genuine), the fact that she's pretty, that she flatters him, sheds tears on his chest, etc. There is no indication that he is reminded of the hilltop scene, more like "I'll do anything to stop her from shedding those indecent tears!". Anyway, he lets down his guard, and like Julia, I like the gradual way it happens. First he practically 'douses her with cold water'. Then he agrees to protect Draco, which is what he's planning to do anyway. Then he agrees to make an Unbreakable Vow with her to protect Draco. He is now getting deeper into it, but there is no danger yet. Then, when he's kneeling in front of her and holding hands, she springs her trap. "Promise you'll kill Dubledore if Draco cannot do it." There's no way to wriggle out of it now, without making Bella very suspicious. So, although his hand is trying to say "I won't!" he says "I will!"
Solitaire - Aug 10, 2008 8:45 pm (#193 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 9:46 pm
I agree that Narcissa may have been manipulating Snape. However, given Narcissa's reaction to Bella before they reached Snape's home ...
"Let go, Bella!" snarled Narcissa, and she drew a wand from beneath her cloak, holding it threateningly in the other's face. Bella merely laughed.
"Cissy, your own sister? You wouldn't--"
"There is nothing I wouldn't do anymore!" Narcissa breathed, a note of hysteria in her voice, and as she brought down the wand like a knife, there was another flash of light. Bella let go of her sister's arm as though burned.
... I think her distress may have been genuine. Her husband was in prison and couldn't help her. Bella certainly wouldn't do it. In her mind, Snape was her last hope for help among those she knew, and he would be in close physical proximity to Draco. We know that she lied to Voldemort in the forest in exchange for info on whether or not Draco was alive and in Hogwarts castle. Neither Lucius nor Narcissa bothered fighting in the last battle when the other DEs were doing so. They were seeking Draco and nothing else mattered. I don't give them credit for too much--they have been miserable human beings for the greater portion of the series--but even Narcissa was worried about her son, the obnoxious little Muggle-hating git!
Solitaire
Dryleaves - Aug 10, 2008 10:12 pm (#194 of 2988)
Then comes test#2. "You disgust me! You do not care then about the deaths of her husband and child?..." This time Dumbledore is trying to find out whether this young man has any good in him (other than his love for Lily, which is clearly not enough), whether he is amenable to change. And Snape shows that, even if he doesn't yet care about Harry and James' lives, he at least feels ashamed. This time he passes the test. (Mona)
I agree with this, but I also think that Dumbledore here maybe furhter tests Snape's love for Lily to see if it is genuine, whether Snape just wants or desires her or if he loves her. Saving the whole family may diminish Snape's hopes of having her for himself, but increase the chances that she will survive.
I like your description of the Spinner's End scene, Mona.
About the "Always"-scene, I don't think this scene is there to indicate that Snape is selfish because he does what he does for Lily, not for Harry, but to show that his ultimate motivation is love.
PeskyPixie - Aug 10, 2008 10:13 pm (#195 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 11:15 pm
Great post, mona. I agree with you. However, there is one teensy thing I have to add to Snape's request to Voldy: "Kill the child, but please, for my sake, spare the mother. She's hot." Snape seems to have tailored his request to resemble desire rather than love ... still, it seems like something Voldy would find gross.
"I feel that Snape's compassion for Narcissa was genuine, but that it was a rather unwilling reaction to her extreme distress (which I also believe to be genuine), the fact that she's pretty, that she flatters him, sheds tears on his chest, etc." -mona
Ah yes, our Severus is rather a sucker for a pretty face. He loves to play the knight in shining armour. ***stifles a snicker*** It's past 2:00AM here, so I think I should get to bed before I get too silly.
Julia H. - Aug 11, 2008 9:13 am (#196 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 10:14 am
Well, "spying and lying" is pretty much it, really. I mean, what other "dangerous tasks" did he do? Prior to DH, I'm talking about, where the war had begun in earnest and absolutely everyone was in constant danger. (Quinn)
Well, everyone was in constant danger but spying on LV did make your life a shade more dangerous. Perhaps Snape did not do any other things but spying and lying, yet that was mortal danger in itself. Snape certainly saw it like this. Most other teachers, for example, were relatively safe at Hogwarts with the extra protection and DD in charge. However, Snape regularly left this place of safety and spent time with LV and his DE's. Remember LV had wanted to kill him just before he returned to him that night? He was lucky he had time to persuade LV about his loyalty before he killed him as he appeared two hours late with very suspicious years behind him. What could be Voldemort's first reaction seeing him? The Dark Lord's initial displeasure... Snape says to Bellatrix. What do we know about Voldy and his "displeasure"? It was likely expressed with the Cruciatus Curse or something similar (LV was not very kind to the less suspiciously behaving DE's either). Then later on, as he was both spying on LV and actively misleading him with false information, one tiny mistake, one single failure of occlumency could have been enough for Snape to be found out and tortured and killed. So it was rather dangerous.
I think both you and Wynnleaf explained it very well how and to what extent Snape did everything for Lily.
Yet when Dumbledore accuses him of this ("Perhaps you could ask Lord Voldemort to spare the mother in exchange for the son.") Snape's response is immediate: "I have."
Like Wynnleaf, I agree with you but not with DD. While DD is totally justified when he confronts Snape with the shame of what he has been doing, this particular question is not a very good one, since Snape has just come to him, obviously turning away from Voldemort. Besides, if Snape had not asked Voldemort to spare Lily and could tell DD so, would he be any better? Woud DD have less reason to be "disgusted"?
But did he visualise a scenario where Lily would have to choose between her life and that of her husband or child? I somehow don't think he did. He probably thought that Voldemort would hunt them down, kill Harry and James, and perhaps spare Lily, as he had agreed to it. But he couldn't be sure that this homicidal maniac would not kill Lily as well, just to complete the job. From the beginning of the conversation on the hilltop, it is clear that the idea that DD would save the whole family never occurred to him. Mona
I don't think he was able to visualize much in that terrified state of mind. He was probably visualizing Lily being killed. But somewhere in the back of his mind he must have known he was spoiling LV's whole plan by telling it to LV's most powerful enemy. Not that this was his concern in any way but on some level he must have known.
I like your post very much, Mona, and agree with most of it, only perhaps I don't see that Snape's wording of his request to LV ("Kill the child, but please, for my sake, spare the mother.") could have been in that style. There was no way a DE could give anything like permission to whatever LV wanted to do. I imagine it more in the form of a more humble request, which was already dangerous enough, since it meant that Snape wanted someone to live whom LV wanted to die.
I also think that Snape is taking an exam on the hilltop (I love the scene too) but he does not know about it. He does not seem to realize that DD is testing him, he answers his questions as he can but is only waiting to hear the reassurance that DD will save her. In the end, he passes: DD can see that there is hope for him (actually I think he sees that even though he does not think of James and Harry, his love for Lily is still selfless, and yes, quite importantly, he sees that Snape can be made to feel ashamed) and that is the reason why he asks him the final test question: what he is ready to do for her. (I also like the way Snape does not try to explain anything: he tells DD he has asked LV and he "gapes" at him when he has no words, etc. It does not make his previous behaviour more excusable but DD can at least see that he is not looking for anything for himself, he is sincere and not pretending to be better than he is. It may be another reason why he can be confronted with his shame.)
I am sure Narcissa's distress is genuine. What else would have made her go to Spinner's End, sneak behind LV's back (with Bella at her heels) and kiss the hand of a half-blood wizard? Snape's compassion is genuine, too, and I find it more believable because we actually see how it starts. It would seem more like an act if he had been the same all throughout the scene. Obviously, JKR could not hint that Snape is reminded of anything from his own past in that scene, since the reader is not to know this past yet. But the similarities are there, the changing behaviour is there, we know that Snape never forgets Lily and his guilt - I find it very likely that he is reminded of things. I also think he may be touched (in his own way!) by the fact that once again he is to promise to save a son for the sake of a mother. It seems to be his fate to save other people's sons (for the sake of mothers).
Quinn Crockett - Aug 11, 2008 9:50 am (#197 of 2988)
I think [Dumbledore] sees that even though [Snape] does not think of James and Harry, his love for Lily is still selfless,
And yet his immediate response to Snape's "selfless" love is "You disgust me!" No, I just don't think so, Julia.
While DD is totally justified when he confronts Snape with the shame of what he has been doing, this particular question is not a very good one, since Snape has just come to him, obviously turning away from Voldemort.
Well, Snape doesn't truly "turn away from Voldemort" until he commits to Dumbledore with his promise of "anything". I would also suggest that Dumbledore is thinking of his own loved ones, here. And he is outraged that the person who all but brought death to their very doorstep is now groveling at his feet. Under the circumstances, I think he is exceptionally fair with the little sneak.
Snape's compassion is genuine, too, and I find it more believable because we actually see how it starts. It would seem more like an act if he had been the same all throughout the scene.
I have to say, when a beautiful woman is sobbing into your chest, you'll do pretty much anything she wants. ("It was like she was on fire and I was trying to put her out!")
Orion - Aug 11, 2008 10:53 am (#198 of 2988)
Hmm. ***perfectly aware of saying this for the umpteenth time and slightly embarrassed by that, sorry everybody*** Dumbledore himself earned himself a very healthy "You disgust me" first in the Ariana and Grindelwald story and then in the Prank story. In the Prank story he earned himself a very healthy "You disgust me" from Snape directly, because even if Sirius and James were in any way secretly punished (in a civil way, with detentions or suchlike) for attempted murder, and even if it was on behalf of Remus, which is a very, very good reason, even regarding all this would a little word of comfort for little TeenSnape, some acknowledgement of the Marauders' bullying, some actual protection against the ongoing bullying have been the honourable thing to do. But obviously a student can't say "You disgust me" to the headmaster of his school.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 11, 2008 11:38 am (#199 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 12:40 pm
Why should James have been punished for "attempted murder"? James didn't even know anything about it until he heard Snape had gone down the tunnel - at which point he immediately went after Snape to keep him from being attacked.
And, for the umpteenth time myself, if Snape was stupid enough to listen to his arch-enemy and go down the tunnel at his rival's suggestion... I mean, come on. He would hardly have any right to think anyone else "disgusts" him after his own behavior of snooping and skulking around just to try to get someone else into trouble.
Remember when Draco tried to get Harry, Hermione and Neville into trouble for Hagrid's dragon? He didn't get off just because he tattled about other students being out of bed. He got into just as much trouble as the rest of them.
I think something similar probably happened with Snape and James (and Sirius, if he was there). They were all out of bounds after hours. The only difference I can see is that Snape was sworn to secrecy about anything he might have seen at the end of the tunnel. Unfair perhaps in Snape's eyes, but hardly worth a "you disgust me". After all, the whole thing would never have happened if Snape had just minded his own business.
wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2008 1:54 pm (#200 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 3:01 pm
I would also suggest that Dumbledore is thinking of his own loved ones, here. (Quinn)
Are you perhaps saying that DD was thinking of the Potters? I'm assuming that's what you mean, although given DD's response and overall demeanor the day after their deaths, I don't think he was particularly close to them.
But your comment made me remember DD's own past, and his own rather "disgusting" cowardice following some of his own major life mistakes(doing nothing about Grindelwald for years even though thousands were dying and DD felt himself the only one really capable of stopping GG; and going for years unwilling to do the basic investigative work - like just looking in a pensieve - to find out whether he was the one that killed his sister). I wonder if DD's disgust in Snape is not only directly related to what Snape had actually done, but also partly from DD assuming that Snape's responses and attitudes are just as "disgusting" as DD saw his own responses and attitudes years previously.
And Orion is correct. Not only did DD have some rather "disgusting" decisions in his past regarding Arianna and Grindelwald, he allowed bullying of Severus to continue unabated in his school even when the bullying reached a point where a student was almost killed and another, Lupin, almost forced to inadvertently commit murder. Yet only months later the bullies were going right ahead, publicaly continuing with their bullying, obviously with no worries that the Headmaster might actually come down hard on them and punish them for it.
It may be that DD's reaction to Snape, not only on the Hill, but immediately after the Potter's deaths, is a reflection not only of DD's assumptions about Snape (right or wrong), but also DD's regrets and guilt about his own past actions.
Why should James have been punished for "attempted murder"? (Quinn)
Assuming James had no prior part in the scheme, he shouldn't of course have been punished for it. But the Prank should have brought to light the dangers that bullying can lead to and the extremes it can take. As I said above, the Marauders should have come out of the Prank feeling like they had to stop attacking Snape, or anyone else, and having been assured by DD that if any more bullying went on, they'd be in for very severe punishment. That's in fact what often happens in real life schools when excessive bullying gets to a really serious point -- schools work for a "no tolerance" kind of attitude. That obviously didn't happen at Hogwarts, as the Marauders seem to go right back to attacking Snape publicly, without any fear of the school taking action against them.
Edited Aug 9, 2008 4:36 am
In one of her interviews, Jo said that if Lily had not been in the picture, Snape would have done nothing to help Harry. I personally believe that if he had not given Dumbledore his word that he would do all to help Lily's son, Snape would have walked away and left Harry to his fate ... whatever that my have been.(Solitaire)
I think JKR was talking about Snape's initial agreement to help Harry, not his helping of Harry at the time of the series. Because it wouldn't make any sense. By the last years of his life, Snape helped numerous people who had nothing at all to do with Lily and certainly weren't related to her.
So while yes, I agree that initially were it not for Lily Snape would never have helped Harry, but I don't think JKR's comments fit Snape later in life, because later he helped others with no relation to Lily, and therefore one must assume that his helping Harry was no longer just because he was Lily's son, but also because Snape was now willing to save anyone he could.
On the Vow, I think Snape got into the whole thing initially because he was trying to play the loyal Death Eater. But I don't think that's why he went ahead with the Vow. Can anyone actually picture other real Death Eaters willing to take an Unbreakable Vow and risk their own lives just to agree to keep Draco Malfoy safe? Especially when they'd know that LV didn't particularly care anything about Draco's safety? Of course not. Bella wasn't out there risking her life to protect Draco, right? And nor would any other loyal Death Eater.
No, Snape didn't go so far as to take the Vow because he had to show he was loyal, when no other loyal DE would put his life on the line for Draco's safety. Instead, I think Snape was willing to take the Vow because he already knew that he was willing to risk his life to help protect Draco.
Personally, I don't think Snape's willingness to put his life on the line to protect Draco was due to his pity or sympathy for Narcissa, although he does seem to exhibit pity for her. I think Snape had already become a person willing to risk his life to save anyone he could, and Draco was one of those people he felt he might be able to save. Whether he had any particular special concern for Draco we don't know.
Oh, and willingness to risk his life for Draco is just another example of someone who had nothing to do with Lily, yet Snape wouldn't just walk away from them without helping.
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 3:49 am (#177 of 2988)
Personally, I don't think Snape's willingness to put his life on the line to protect Draco was due to his pity or whatever for Narcissa. (Wynnleaf)
That is not what I said either. He knew he was going to save Draco before Narcissa'a visit. But he could have simply told Narcissa "we must all obey the Dark Lord and there is nothing else we can do" (as indeed he did say something similar in the beginning) "be happy to sacrifice your son for the Dark Lord, as Bellatrix says" - that would have sounded as a loyal DE - and then he could have still saved Draco according to the original plan between DD and himself. But he let Narcissa speak even when he seemed to feel that he should not and then tried to tell her he would "try" to help Draco. That was to reassure and comfort Narcissa. Then Narcissa, seeing his willingness, immediately asked him to take the vow. So he took the vow both to reassure her and because it would have been difficult to turn back at that point but it was Snape who had initially let things get that far. I think the moment when Narcissa fell on the floor (as Snape had fell on his knees in front of DD) and Snape lifted her (touched her) was a turning point. And in his changed manner towards Narcissa (it is a gradual change and I like the way it is described) I do see something that can be compassion or at least the ability to relate Narcissa's plight to his own plight on the hilltop, where he did get a helping hand from DD.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 9, 2008 10:35 am (#178 of 2988)
Edited Aug 9, 2008 11:39 am
The whole point, Julia, is that taking the Vow was never in direct contradiction to what Snape was already doing. He already knew he would have to kill Dumbledore, already knew about Draco's "assignment". Sure, he could have sent the sisters on their way with a terse, "You should never have come here". But, really, where was the harm in observing the niceties, as even Voldemort, himself, advises? Besides, Snape and the Malfoys were clearly old friends. To have acted rudely may have actually drawn more attention to his behavior.
And remember that it wasn't just Bellatrix who had doubts about Snape's loyalty. Wormtail was there too and had already been caught eavesdropping once. The Vow may very well have been for his benefit, to make it clear that, one way or another, Dumbledore would be killed - which was, after all, Voldemort's primary interest.
wynnleaf - Aug 9, 2008 11:26 am (#179 of 2988)
Prior to asking for an Unbreakable Vow, Narcissa's entire focus toward Snape was in asking him to protect Draco - not to kill DD. Further, when Snape first agreed to do what Narcissa wanted, it was, once again, to protect Draco, not to kill DD. Then when Narcissa asked for the Vow, it was to protect Draco, with once again, no mention of fulfilling his mission for him. It wasn't until Snape had already complete two thirds of the Vow that Narcissa threw in the part about fulfilling the Vow.
Therefore, Snape did not agree to the Vow to show anything about his own willingness to kill DD. He got into it over the question of protecting Draco. And that's the part that really, as a Death Eater, he did not need to do in order to show loyalty to LV. LV couldn't care less if Draco was killed. It might even have been okay with him, as it would have punished Lucius. So Snape did not need to go to the extreme point of taking a Vow to protect Draco, in order to convince anyone he was loyal to LV. Sure, it helped to pursuade Bella, because Narcissa added in the part about completing the mission for Draco if he should fail. But that wasn't the initial reason for the Vow, and therefore it is highly unlikely that whatever Snape's purposes were in taking the Vow, they had anything to do with a desire to prove to others that he would be willing to kill DD himself.
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 11:34 am (#180 of 2988)
Edited Aug 9, 2008 12:42 pm
The whole point, Julia, is that taking the Vow was never in direct contradiction to what Snape was already doing. He already knew he would have to kill Dumbledore, already knew about Draco's "assignment". (Quinn)
I am perfectly aware of that. I think I even said so. Still, sending home the ladies with a "sorry I cannot do anything" would have been the safest and most probable thing a typical DE would have done - friendship or not. He could have been still polite and kind. (Lucius himself would not have done otherwise.) I don't think Voldemort would have been happy to know that his DE's made an unofficial alliance behind his back. Remember he did not only want to get DD killed but he wanted to punish Lucius through Draco and these three were certainly preventing that. (As far as we know at that point Snape only suspected that Voldemort wanted him to do the "job" in the end, it seems he had not been officially told yet.) It is not an accident that Snape sent Wormtail up the stairs and out of earshot.
To have acted rudely may have actually drawn more attention to his behavior.
Snape is kind to Narcissa but does not even try any niceties toward Bella. There is this clear difference even though it is Bella he should in theory convince and it is Narcissa who is sneaking behind LV's back. Yes, Snape tries to be careful and keep the situation in control as much as he can. But it does not mean that he, at the same time, cannot understand Narcissa's fears, especially because of the similarities between them. The scene is written in such a way that Snape's behaviour changes: in the beginning he turns away from Narcissa, tells her there is no hope to persuade LV, Draco must try, he even tells her Draco might succeed, which he knows Narcissa knows is not true. This is the cautious part of his behaviour but it suddenly changes and he talks to her in a different way: he stops pretending Draco might succeed and other things and tries to explain to her that he would try to help. First he turned away from her, now he looks into her eyes, first he removed her clutching hands, now he does not, first he talked to her with the air of authority, now he kneels in front of her. The change is obvious and I think it is because he is reminded of something and he understands her. He realizes Narcissa is experiencing now what he experienced many years ago: LV is threatening someone she loves. Yes, I know, he can take the vow in any case (though he does seem to be surprised at first) but the way he does it - after DH - indicates that he is aware of and touched by the similarities between Narcissa and his earlier self.
BTW, should DD now announce a change in his plans, Snape would be in great trouble.
It is the merit of the HP books that several layers of meaning can be found in certain scenes. You can find and understand more after reading and re-reading and when you know the whole story and can connect far away parts.
Orion - Aug 9, 2008 12:02 pm (#181 of 2988)
"The scene is written in such a way that Snape's behaviour changes: in the beginning he turns away from Narcissa, tells her there is no hope to persuade LV, Draco must try, he even tells her Draco might succeed, which he knows Narcissa knows is not true. This is the cautious part of his behaviour but it suddenly changes and he talks to her in a different way: he stops pretending Draco might succeed and other things and tries to explain to her that he would try to help. First he turned away from her, now he looks into her eyes, first he removed her clutching hands, now he does not, first he talked to her with the air of authority, now he kneels in front of her. The change is obvious and I think it is because he is reminded of something and he understands her." (Julia)
The scene is written in a way that Snape acts extremely stagey. I find it hard to detect any real emotion in his behaviour because he acts as if his emotions are supposed to appear real, but in fact they are part of his act. It's hard to explain. But the whole thing is so false. The language! Compare it to Ron, or Fred and George, their witty, flowing dialogue. And then these three remnants of the past - horrible. As if the whole cast of Dracula had reared out of their coffins.
"BTW, should DD now announce a change in his plans, Snape would be in great trouble." Who cares??? DD intends him to die anyway. The whole story can only work if Snape dies. He's the spanner in the works.
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 12:08 pm (#182 of 2988)
Edited Aug 9, 2008 1:10 pm
Orion, when does (the adult) Snape ever talk or act or behave like any of the dunderheads you mention? He belongs to a different age ( and I don't mean just twenty years before) and a different wizarding style / tradition.
Besides, the situation is extremely unusual to him. He ends up holding somebody's hand.
PeskyPixie - Aug 9, 2008 4:51 pm (#183 of 2988)
"As for going to Dumbledore, his "Don't kill me!" is a clear demonstration of his fears of facing 'The Only One He Ever Feared"." -Pesky
"I thought "The Only One He Ever Feared" was referring to Voldemort's fear of Dumbledore, not Snape's. Why would Snape fear Dumbledore?" -Soli
I haven't had a chance to go through all of the posts, just popping in to clarify something.
Soli, I used 'The Only One He Ever Feared' to refer to the fact that even a wizard as powerful as Lord Voldemort fears Dumbledore. Thus, it is natural for a less powerful enemy (for that is what Snape is to Dumbledore prior to his meeting upon the hilltop) to fear him as well.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 9, 2008 7:56 pm (#184 of 2988)
I find it hard to detect any real emotion in his behaviour because he acts as if his emotions are supposed to appear real, but in fact they are part of his act. - Orion
I know what you mean, Orion and I agree with you ("cast of Dracula" and all ). I think the formality of his language is another way to keep his distance. I don't think there's any need to call Ron or the Twins names, though.
Solitaire - Aug 9, 2008 8:51 pm (#185 of 2988)
therefore one must assume that his helping Harry was no longer just because he was Lily's son, but also because Snape was now willing to save anyone he could.
Again, we must agree to disagree. I take his response to Dumbledore near the end of The Prince's Tale--"For him?"--to mean that he still cared nothing for Harry. It was done for Lily. Period.
No, Snape didn't go so far as to take the Vow because he had to show he was loyal, when no other loyal DE would put his life on the line for Draco's safety. Again, I see it differently. At Spinner's End, Snape gives Bella quite an extensive account of his actions from the time he took a position at Hogwarts to the present time, ostensibly to show her why Voldemort trusts him. Since he was already going to be watching over and protecting Draco--and, in the end, taking Dumbledore's life--the only reasons I can see for his taking the Unbreakable Vow are to reassure Narcissa and to shut Bella's big, fat mouth. Personally, I suspect Snape was hoping that Dumbledore's "exit" from this life might be played out differently, but the Vow cornered him and forced him to play it all out as we saw it. JM2K, but that's how I see it.
I think Snape had already become a person willing to risk his life to save anyone he could, and Draco was one of those people he felt he might be able to save. Again, Snape was simply fulfilling his promise to Dumbledore, at this point. I do not think he was at the point of "risking" just yet, based on his comment when Dumbledore asks him how many men and women he has watched die: Lately, only those whom I could not save." It sounds like he is still biding his time ... although we do understand why. Something about the statement makes me think he has seen others die in his lifetime and did not attempt to save them ... possibly when he was a young DE, before Lily and James were killed.
Solitaire
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 11:36 pm (#186 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 1:16 am
"Lately, only those whom I could not save." It sounds like he is still biding his time ... although we do understand why. Something about the statement makes me think he has seen others die in his lifetime and did not attempt to save them ... possibly when he was a young DE, before Lily and James were killed. (Solitaire)
I think the quote means that now he will not watch people die without doing anything if he can save them and I think the quote is both a reference to the various situations in which Snape has saved / will save or try to save someone, e.g. Lupin, and a reference to a situation in which he does not save someone, namely Charity Barbage. IMO JKR throws in that sentence partly to explain that in that case Snape did not try to save her because he could not. (If he had tried, both would likely have died and Snape still had his jobs to do. It is the same that while Harry was willing to die to save the wizarding world and was usually ready to risk his life for his friends, yet, when Xeno told him he wanted to hand him over to the DE's to save Luna, Harry did not say "OK, I would do that for her". It would have been a pointless sacrifice, Luna still might not have been released and Harry's vital mission would have failed.) Snape's sentence is also an assertion of change: I agree that as a DE he must have seen people die without feeling the urge to save them. (And DD keeps on rubbing it in even after all these years and important changes.)
I think the formality of his language is another way to keep his distance. I don't think there's any need to call Ron or the Twins names, though. (Quinn)
I thought we were allowed to joke... As for keeping his distance, yes, Snape is trying to keep his distance, as he always does. It is both a habit and a precaution. (The only person he is less distant with is DD.) This does not mean he cannot understand Narcissa's situation or feelings.
wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2008 3:57 am (#187 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 4:58 am
"Lately, only those whom I could not save."
This comment, while we read it in DH, is actually made by Snape to DD only a few months after Snape made the Vow. Since we aren't shown anything particularly life changing happening in between those two events, I think we are to assume that "lately" is more than just the past few weeks or months, but more like the past year or so since LV's return. That is "lately" in comparison to the many years since Snape watched many die as a Death Eater and probably as a spy prior to LV's first downfall.
By the last couple of years of Snape's life, he saves or attempts to save people with no relation to Lily at all. Therefore it makes no sense for JKR to have meant that Snape only did what he did because of Lily. I do think that Snape would assert that himself, that he only did it for Lily, at least as regards his willingness to help Harry, and in fact Snape does assert that with his "Always!" But in actual practice, he does things that have little to nothing to do with Lily.
Yes, it was definitely for Lily that he turned to DD. It was definitely only for Lily that he started spying. And Lily remained his sort of symbol, if you will, for why he was continuing to sacrifice so much. If Snape had never loved Lily, he would never have done those things. But I also think that after LV returned, if Snape had ever reached a point of being able to put his love and grief for Lily into the past and get over it, he would still have continued to help the Order - because by then he was already doing a great deal that he didn't need to do for Lily specifically.
Julia H. - Aug 10, 2008 6:37 am (#188 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 7:39 am
I agree with Wynnleaf. Snape did the spying and lying and all the dangerous tasks to keep Lily's son safe. However, in the process, he saved the lives of other people and very likely it became a habit of his. All in the name of Lily but not directly for Lily's sake.
The "Lately, only those whom I could not save." line seems to be a bit similar to the "And my soul, Dumbledore?" line because it also seems to be indignant though not as much as the other one. It seems to indicate that Snape is aware of the change he has gone through and is reminding Dumbledore that he is a different person now. The past cannot be changed but the present is different.
I'd like to finish my part in the debate about Snape the "DE saint" by summarizing my opinion once again. I do not expect anyone to agree.
1) Snape the DE is undoubtedly bad and there is a lot he should be ashamed of. It is wrong that he is in the organization, that he follows LV's orders. However, there is one single good part in him, his selfless love for Lily and Lily alone. This is what makes it possible for him to change. Even though he needs DD's help and he needs to be (and luckily can be) shamed into seeing his life and his ways in a true light, it is this love and the ability to sacrifice for Lily that makes him worthy of help and - ultimately - redemption.
2) Regarding Harry: no, Snape does not think of saving Harry. It is wrong. He can oly think of Lily. However, as he goes to DD, his behaviour is still not the same as selling Harry to save Lily. If he had stuck with Voldemort's promise, we could fairly accuse him of this. (Although even when he asks LV, he is not making a deal with him - how could he? What he can tell him can be no more than a request to spare the least dangerous or his victims.) Luckily, Snape turns away from LV to save Lily more completely, which happens to include saving Harry. This proves at least that it was not his intention to get Harry (or James) killed.
3) He starts to change and later, in the last years of his life, he is a much better person. It is fair to see that and judge him differently.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 10, 2008 9:12 am (#189 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 10:21 am
I don't think there's any need to call Ron or the Twins names, though. - Crockett
I thought we were allowed to joke... - Julia
Yes, please! I was actually attempting to do so. Sorry, I'll put a little smiley face next time.
------------------
But in actual practice, he does things that have little to nothing to do with Lily. - Wynnleaf
I think what Snape means by his assertion of "always" is that he hasn't only been trying to make up for his part in sending a genocidal super-villain after her, but also trying to become the man she always wanted.
Snape did the spying and lying and all the dangerous tasks to keep Lily's son safe - Julia
Well, "spying and lying" is pretty much it, really. I mean, what other "dangerous tasks" did he do? Prior to DH, I'm talking about, where the war had begun in earnest and absolutely everyone was in constant danger.
However, as he goes to DD, his behaviour is still not the same as selling Harry to save Lily.
That's certainly not the way Dumbledore sees it. You say that Snape "isn't making a deal" with Voldemort when he asks him to spare Lily. Yet when Dumbledore accuses him of this ("Perhaps you could ask Lord Voldemort to spare the mother in exchange for the son.") Snape's response is immediate: "I have."
wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2008 9:22 am (#190 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 10:27 am
I think what Snape means by his assertion of "always" is that he hasn't only been trying to make up accidentally sending a genocidal super-villain after her, but also trying to become the man she always wanted. (Quinn)
Hey, Quinn, I actually mostly agree!
Although I see it a bit different. I tend to think of it a little like the way the old chivalry system was supposed to work where you have a knight using an unattainable lady as a kind of symbol or standard to which he kind of commits everything he does -- it's all done for her. But not in a direct sense, as though the lady is actually going to see and give approval, or even return his love (remember she's unattainable). But instead, the lady becomes more of an inspiration.
At first, right after Lily's death, I think Snape is doing things directly for Lily and for her memory, wanting to save the child that is directly a part of Lily, her son, her blood. But as the years go by he's not just interested in saving what is directly a part of Lily, but instead living up to a standard which, for him, Lily somehow represents.
While Snape still has a lot of emotionally immature responses to Harry, I think his transition from doing things only to save what is directly Lily's, to using her as a kind of standard or symbol for his actions to benefit far more than just what is directly related to Lily, shows a much greater maturity in this particular area than a basic notion that one might get from JKR's words, that he only did anything because of Lily.
That's certainly not the way Dumbledore sees it. (Quinn)
While I agree with you Quinn, I don't agree with Dumbledore. I think DD tended to misread Snape on a number of occasions and in particular over this supposed "deal" with LV. Later, just after Lily's death, DD says that Snape trusted LV to save her, which should be obviously untrue, as it was because Snape didn't trust LV to save Lily that he came to DD.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 10, 2008 9:59 am (#191 of 2988)
Are you referring to the "Like you, they put their faith in someone untrustworthy" remark Dumbledore says to Snape during his breakdown in Dumbledore's office? Because I always thought Dumbledore was referring there Snape originally joining up with Voldemort and supporting his ideals, not to his "deal" to spare Lily.
Sort of along the lines of, "You were mistaken to believe that Voldemort would only ever harm those nameless and faceless 'others' who mean nothing to you."
Hm. Maybe you're right and he was referring to the "deal".
mona amon - Aug 10, 2008 8:28 pm (#192 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 9:47 pm
I think this is the reason why he went to DD. He only wanted to save Lily, yes, but he must have realized that the difference between LV's promise and DD's help was that DD would not stop at saving only Lily. He knew Lily would be the safest if she did not have to defend anyone in her family. (Julia)
But did he visualise a scenario where Lily would have to choose between her life and that of her husband or child? I somehow don't think he did. He probably thought that Voldemort would hunt them down, kill Harry and James, and perhaps spare Lily, as he had agreed to it. But he couldn't be sure that this homicidal maniac would not kill Lily as well, just to complete the job. From the beginning of the conversation on the hilltop, it is clear that the idea that DD would save the whole family never occurred to him.
I think DD tended to misread Snape on a number of occasions and in particular over this supposed "deal" with LV. Later, just after Lily's death, DD says that Snape trusted LV to save her, which should be obviously untrue, as it was because Snape didn't trust LV to save Lily that he came to DD. (Wynnleaf)
I don't think either of these quotes is supposed to be taken too literally. "She and James put their faith in the wrong person"..."Rather like you, Severus." (ie. not entirely like you, only a bit) "Weren't you hoping that Voldemort would spare her?" (This is probably something that Snape was hoping, even if DD's plan failed.) I think JKR puts in that quote mainly to remind us about why Lily's sacrifice had such an unusual protective effect.
"Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"- Taken literally, this remark is meaningless. Snape did not own Harry's life to be offering it to LV in exchange for Lily's, and of course DD knew this. What Dumbledore is doing here is testing Snape's attitude. Did he care at all about the life of anyone other than Lily? Snape could at least have tried to explain to DD how pointless it would have been for him to try and bargain for Harry's life as well. Instead he answers in a way that indicates that he worded his request to Voldemort along the lines of "Kill the child, but please, for my sake, spare the mother."
There is a difference between a person who cares for human life in general, but in a crisis thinks (quite naturally) only of the life of the one most dear to him, and the person who does not care a jot for human life in general, but wants to save the life of a person he loves. Dumbledore tests Snape to find out which category he belongs to, and he fails the test.
Then comes test#2. "You disgust me! You do not care then about the deaths of her husband and child?..." This time Dumbledore is trying to find out whether this young man has any good in him (other than his love for Lily, which is clearly not enough), whether he is amenable to change. And Snape shows that, even if he doesn't yet care about Harry and James' lives, he at least feels ashamed. This time he passes the test. (Yay!!! I love the Hilltop scene!)
---------------------
the only reasons I can see for his taking the Unbreakable Vow are to reassure Narcissa and to shut Bella's big, fat mouth. Personally, I suspect Snape was hoping that Dumbledore's "exit" from this life might be played out differently, but the Vow cornered him and forced him to play it all out as we saw it. JM2K, but that's how I see it. (Soli)
This is more or less the way I see it as well. I also agree with Orion that it is stagey. Snape is completely into his double-agent role, and Narcissa I feel is being sly and manipulative while pretending to be utterly helpless. An extremely interesting scene, with all the various tensions and hidden agendas. I'm waiting to see it in the movie! Bella is the only one who is not acting a part.
I feel that Snape's compassion for Narcissa was genuine, but that it was a rather unwilling reaction to her extreme distress (which I also believe to be genuine), the fact that she's pretty, that she flatters him, sheds tears on his chest, etc. There is no indication that he is reminded of the hilltop scene, more like "I'll do anything to stop her from shedding those indecent tears!". Anyway, he lets down his guard, and like Julia, I like the gradual way it happens. First he practically 'douses her with cold water'. Then he agrees to protect Draco, which is what he's planning to do anyway. Then he agrees to make an Unbreakable Vow with her to protect Draco. He is now getting deeper into it, but there is no danger yet. Then, when he's kneeling in front of her and holding hands, she springs her trap. "Promise you'll kill Dubledore if Draco cannot do it." There's no way to wriggle out of it now, without making Bella very suspicious. So, although his hand is trying to say "I won't!" he says "I will!"
Solitaire - Aug 10, 2008 8:45 pm (#193 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 9:46 pm
I agree that Narcissa may have been manipulating Snape. However, given Narcissa's reaction to Bella before they reached Snape's home ...
"Let go, Bella!" snarled Narcissa, and she drew a wand from beneath her cloak, holding it threateningly in the other's face. Bella merely laughed.
"Cissy, your own sister? You wouldn't--"
"There is nothing I wouldn't do anymore!" Narcissa breathed, a note of hysteria in her voice, and as she brought down the wand like a knife, there was another flash of light. Bella let go of her sister's arm as though burned.
... I think her distress may have been genuine. Her husband was in prison and couldn't help her. Bella certainly wouldn't do it. In her mind, Snape was her last hope for help among those she knew, and he would be in close physical proximity to Draco. We know that she lied to Voldemort in the forest in exchange for info on whether or not Draco was alive and in Hogwarts castle. Neither Lucius nor Narcissa bothered fighting in the last battle when the other DEs were doing so. They were seeking Draco and nothing else mattered. I don't give them credit for too much--they have been miserable human beings for the greater portion of the series--but even Narcissa was worried about her son, the obnoxious little Muggle-hating git!
Solitaire
Dryleaves - Aug 10, 2008 10:12 pm (#194 of 2988)
Then comes test#2. "You disgust me! You do not care then about the deaths of her husband and child?..." This time Dumbledore is trying to find out whether this young man has any good in him (other than his love for Lily, which is clearly not enough), whether he is amenable to change. And Snape shows that, even if he doesn't yet care about Harry and James' lives, he at least feels ashamed. This time he passes the test. (Mona)
I agree with this, but I also think that Dumbledore here maybe furhter tests Snape's love for Lily to see if it is genuine, whether Snape just wants or desires her or if he loves her. Saving the whole family may diminish Snape's hopes of having her for himself, but increase the chances that she will survive.
I like your description of the Spinner's End scene, Mona.
About the "Always"-scene, I don't think this scene is there to indicate that Snape is selfish because he does what he does for Lily, not for Harry, but to show that his ultimate motivation is love.
PeskyPixie - Aug 10, 2008 10:13 pm (#195 of 2988)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 11:15 pm
Great post, mona. I agree with you. However, there is one teensy thing I have to add to Snape's request to Voldy: "Kill the child, but please, for my sake, spare the mother. She's hot." Snape seems to have tailored his request to resemble desire rather than love ... still, it seems like something Voldy would find gross.
"I feel that Snape's compassion for Narcissa was genuine, but that it was a rather unwilling reaction to her extreme distress (which I also believe to be genuine), the fact that she's pretty, that she flatters him, sheds tears on his chest, etc." -mona
Ah yes, our Severus is rather a sucker for a pretty face. He loves to play the knight in shining armour. ***stifles a snicker*** It's past 2:00AM here, so I think I should get to bed before I get too silly.
Julia H. - Aug 11, 2008 9:13 am (#196 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 10:14 am
Well, "spying and lying" is pretty much it, really. I mean, what other "dangerous tasks" did he do? Prior to DH, I'm talking about, where the war had begun in earnest and absolutely everyone was in constant danger. (Quinn)
Well, everyone was in constant danger but spying on LV did make your life a shade more dangerous. Perhaps Snape did not do any other things but spying and lying, yet that was mortal danger in itself. Snape certainly saw it like this. Most other teachers, for example, were relatively safe at Hogwarts with the extra protection and DD in charge. However, Snape regularly left this place of safety and spent time with LV and his DE's. Remember LV had wanted to kill him just before he returned to him that night? He was lucky he had time to persuade LV about his loyalty before he killed him as he appeared two hours late with very suspicious years behind him. What could be Voldemort's first reaction seeing him? The Dark Lord's initial displeasure... Snape says to Bellatrix. What do we know about Voldy and his "displeasure"? It was likely expressed with the Cruciatus Curse or something similar (LV was not very kind to the less suspiciously behaving DE's either). Then later on, as he was both spying on LV and actively misleading him with false information, one tiny mistake, one single failure of occlumency could have been enough for Snape to be found out and tortured and killed. So it was rather dangerous.
I think both you and Wynnleaf explained it very well how and to what extent Snape did everything for Lily.
Yet when Dumbledore accuses him of this ("Perhaps you could ask Lord Voldemort to spare the mother in exchange for the son.") Snape's response is immediate: "I have."
Like Wynnleaf, I agree with you but not with DD. While DD is totally justified when he confronts Snape with the shame of what he has been doing, this particular question is not a very good one, since Snape has just come to him, obviously turning away from Voldemort. Besides, if Snape had not asked Voldemort to spare Lily and could tell DD so, would he be any better? Woud DD have less reason to be "disgusted"?
But did he visualise a scenario where Lily would have to choose between her life and that of her husband or child? I somehow don't think he did. He probably thought that Voldemort would hunt them down, kill Harry and James, and perhaps spare Lily, as he had agreed to it. But he couldn't be sure that this homicidal maniac would not kill Lily as well, just to complete the job. From the beginning of the conversation on the hilltop, it is clear that the idea that DD would save the whole family never occurred to him. Mona
I don't think he was able to visualize much in that terrified state of mind. He was probably visualizing Lily being killed. But somewhere in the back of his mind he must have known he was spoiling LV's whole plan by telling it to LV's most powerful enemy. Not that this was his concern in any way but on some level he must have known.
I like your post very much, Mona, and agree with most of it, only perhaps I don't see that Snape's wording of his request to LV ("Kill the child, but please, for my sake, spare the mother.") could have been in that style. There was no way a DE could give anything like permission to whatever LV wanted to do. I imagine it more in the form of a more humble request, which was already dangerous enough, since it meant that Snape wanted someone to live whom LV wanted to die.
I also think that Snape is taking an exam on the hilltop (I love the scene too) but he does not know about it. He does not seem to realize that DD is testing him, he answers his questions as he can but is only waiting to hear the reassurance that DD will save her. In the end, he passes: DD can see that there is hope for him (actually I think he sees that even though he does not think of James and Harry, his love for Lily is still selfless, and yes, quite importantly, he sees that Snape can be made to feel ashamed) and that is the reason why he asks him the final test question: what he is ready to do for her. (I also like the way Snape does not try to explain anything: he tells DD he has asked LV and he "gapes" at him when he has no words, etc. It does not make his previous behaviour more excusable but DD can at least see that he is not looking for anything for himself, he is sincere and not pretending to be better than he is. It may be another reason why he can be confronted with his shame.)
I am sure Narcissa's distress is genuine. What else would have made her go to Spinner's End, sneak behind LV's back (with Bella at her heels) and kiss the hand of a half-blood wizard? Snape's compassion is genuine, too, and I find it more believable because we actually see how it starts. It would seem more like an act if he had been the same all throughout the scene. Obviously, JKR could not hint that Snape is reminded of anything from his own past in that scene, since the reader is not to know this past yet. But the similarities are there, the changing behaviour is there, we know that Snape never forgets Lily and his guilt - I find it very likely that he is reminded of things. I also think he may be touched (in his own way!) by the fact that once again he is to promise to save a son for the sake of a mother. It seems to be his fate to save other people's sons (for the sake of mothers).
Quinn Crockett - Aug 11, 2008 9:50 am (#197 of 2988)
I think [Dumbledore] sees that even though [Snape] does not think of James and Harry, his love for Lily is still selfless,
And yet his immediate response to Snape's "selfless" love is "You disgust me!" No, I just don't think so, Julia.
While DD is totally justified when he confronts Snape with the shame of what he has been doing, this particular question is not a very good one, since Snape has just come to him, obviously turning away from Voldemort.
Well, Snape doesn't truly "turn away from Voldemort" until he commits to Dumbledore with his promise of "anything". I would also suggest that Dumbledore is thinking of his own loved ones, here. And he is outraged that the person who all but brought death to their very doorstep is now groveling at his feet. Under the circumstances, I think he is exceptionally fair with the little sneak.
Snape's compassion is genuine, too, and I find it more believable because we actually see how it starts. It would seem more like an act if he had been the same all throughout the scene.
I have to say, when a beautiful woman is sobbing into your chest, you'll do pretty much anything she wants. ("It was like she was on fire and I was trying to put her out!")
Orion - Aug 11, 2008 10:53 am (#198 of 2988)
Hmm. ***perfectly aware of saying this for the umpteenth time and slightly embarrassed by that, sorry everybody*** Dumbledore himself earned himself a very healthy "You disgust me" first in the Ariana and Grindelwald story and then in the Prank story. In the Prank story he earned himself a very healthy "You disgust me" from Snape directly, because even if Sirius and James were in any way secretly punished (in a civil way, with detentions or suchlike) for attempted murder, and even if it was on behalf of Remus, which is a very, very good reason, even regarding all this would a little word of comfort for little TeenSnape, some acknowledgement of the Marauders' bullying, some actual protection against the ongoing bullying have been the honourable thing to do. But obviously a student can't say "You disgust me" to the headmaster of his school.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 11, 2008 11:38 am (#199 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 12:40 pm
Why should James have been punished for "attempted murder"? James didn't even know anything about it until he heard Snape had gone down the tunnel - at which point he immediately went after Snape to keep him from being attacked.
And, for the umpteenth time myself, if Snape was stupid enough to listen to his arch-enemy and go down the tunnel at his rival's suggestion... I mean, come on. He would hardly have any right to think anyone else "disgusts" him after his own behavior of snooping and skulking around just to try to get someone else into trouble.
Remember when Draco tried to get Harry, Hermione and Neville into trouble for Hagrid's dragon? He didn't get off just because he tattled about other students being out of bed. He got into just as much trouble as the rest of them.
I think something similar probably happened with Snape and James (and Sirius, if he was there). They were all out of bounds after hours. The only difference I can see is that Snape was sworn to secrecy about anything he might have seen at the end of the tunnel. Unfair perhaps in Snape's eyes, but hardly worth a "you disgust me". After all, the whole thing would never have happened if Snape had just minded his own business.
wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2008 1:54 pm (#200 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 3:01 pm
I would also suggest that Dumbledore is thinking of his own loved ones, here. (Quinn)
Are you perhaps saying that DD was thinking of the Potters? I'm assuming that's what you mean, although given DD's response and overall demeanor the day after their deaths, I don't think he was particularly close to them.
But your comment made me remember DD's own past, and his own rather "disgusting" cowardice following some of his own major life mistakes(doing nothing about Grindelwald for years even though thousands were dying and DD felt himself the only one really capable of stopping GG; and going for years unwilling to do the basic investigative work - like just looking in a pensieve - to find out whether he was the one that killed his sister). I wonder if DD's disgust in Snape is not only directly related to what Snape had actually done, but also partly from DD assuming that Snape's responses and attitudes are just as "disgusting" as DD saw his own responses and attitudes years previously.
And Orion is correct. Not only did DD have some rather "disgusting" decisions in his past regarding Arianna and Grindelwald, he allowed bullying of Severus to continue unabated in his school even when the bullying reached a point where a student was almost killed and another, Lupin, almost forced to inadvertently commit murder. Yet only months later the bullies were going right ahead, publicaly continuing with their bullying, obviously with no worries that the Headmaster might actually come down hard on them and punish them for it.
It may be that DD's reaction to Snape, not only on the Hill, but immediately after the Potter's deaths, is a reflection not only of DD's assumptions about Snape (right or wrong), but also DD's regrets and guilt about his own past actions.
Why should James have been punished for "attempted murder"? (Quinn)
Assuming James had no prior part in the scheme, he shouldn't of course have been punished for it. But the Prank should have brought to light the dangers that bullying can lead to and the extremes it can take. As I said above, the Marauders should have come out of the Prank feeling like they had to stop attacking Snape, or anyone else, and having been assured by DD that if any more bullying went on, they'd be in for very severe punishment. That's in fact what often happens in real life schools when excessive bullying gets to a really serious point -- schools work for a "no tolerance" kind of attitude. That obviously didn't happen at Hogwarts, as the Marauders seem to go right back to attacking Snape publicly, without any fear of the school taking action against them.
Last edited by Mona on Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Soul Search - Aug 11, 2008 3:12 pm (#201 of 2988)
Apparently, the Marauders and Snape continued their animosity after the prank. This suggests that Dumbledore only learned of Snape going down the tunnel and James "rescuing" him. Only Snape could have told him that he went down the tunnel at Sirius' suggestion, and that would have got him in as much trouble as Sirius. And made him seem really stupid.
My read is Snape got in trouble, and maybe some punishment (for being stupid) and told not to mention Lupin. James was a hero, which is how Lily heard the story. James saving her friend, and his enemy, Snape could have very well been a turning point in their relationship for Lily. How ironic that Snape was the cause for Lily turning to James!
In PS Dumbledore tells Harry only that James saved Snape's life. No mention of Sirius (which he wouldn't have wanted to, anyway.) After PoA it seemed Dumbledore told Harry a big lie, by omision. However, it could very well be that that is all Dumbledore knew.
wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2008 3:59 pm (#202 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 5:02 pm
Recently, I was watching the television versions of the Horatio Hornblower stories. It doesn't always follow the books, but it's a great series. The series starts with Hornblower as a midshipman on a ship in which one of the other midshipmen is a bully and regularly tries to intimidate the other young men and boys. The captain of the ship is quite elderly. Whether he knows about the situation we don't know, but he certainly does nothing to stop it. Later Hornblower ends up on another ship with the highly admirable Captain Pellew, a man who believes a captain should know about such things on his ship. When the actions of the bullying midshipman on the previous ship finally come to light, Horatio tries to tell Pellew that the other Captain shouldn't be blamed because he didn't know about the bullying. Pellew's comment is that it is the business of a captain to know about such things.
The Marauders were not doing their bullying solely in dark corners and abandoned corridors. No, they were blatantly attacking students in the open. The detention records we learn about in HBP bear testimony to their regularly being caught in aggressive confrontations with other students.
Given that history, Dumbledore absolutely should have investigated the Prank further and put an end to their bullying once and for all. He didn't, and it is a failure on his part, because not knowing is no excuse.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 11, 2008 4:45 pm (#203 of 2988)
And Orion is correct. - Wynnleaf
I'm sure what you meant to say was "I agree with Orion". Because none of us is "correct" or "incorrect" in our interpretation of the text. We are all just offering our various opinions. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer.
Anyway, I think we also need to remember that the Hogwarts environment is very much in the tradition of "Tom Brown's School Days" where the students regularly assault each other and build up an all out hatred over seemingly insignificant remarks or incidents. In these kinds of stories, the teachers don't really intervene except to punish those involved for whatever the specific incident was (i.e. fighting, being out of bounds, etc). They certainly don't have sit-down little chats with the bullies or their victims to try to hash out their differences or force them into some sort of long-term alternate behavior plan.
Sure, we do that now (mostly). But this is a fantasy novel wherein the school in question is very archaic in many respects (Quills, anyone? Why not a Rolling Writer? That doesn't require the use of magic.) Even McGonagall says (to Fake Moody) that to punish students "We give detentions".
In any case, Snape shouldn't have been sneaking around after the Marauders, should he? Being bullied is a completely separate matter and had absolutely nothing to do with Snape making his own decision to creep off down the willow tunnel in the middle of the night ("Nothing gives a student the right to be sneaking around at night!"). If he had stayed in bed like he was supposed to, the Prank never would have happened.
wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2008 5:56 pm (#204 of 2988)
I don't think JKR meant for us to think that the bullying was kind of accepted in the way of Tom Brown's Schooldays. JKR herself has talked a number of times about bullying that she went through while in school and at the time OOTP came out (with its numerous incidences of bullying) she was very outspoken about the evils of bullying. So I really don't think she intended us to look at bullying at the school and absolve the school because it's just "in the tradition" or whatever.
If he had stayed in bed like he was supposed to, the Prank never would have happened. (Quinn)
I know we've been over this many times. Still... on the one hand you're correct that if Snape had stayed in bed obviously he wouldn't have ended up in the tunnel. On the other hand, desperately wanting to get several prime school bullies expelled isn't a bad motivation, in my opinion. So yes, Snape was breaking the rules. But he was breaking the rules in order to prove that these out-of-control boys, who the school was clearly not able to control (note that they were even flagrantly endangering the countryside on a monthly basis), should be expelled.
Harry breaks rules quite a bit. Sometimes his motives (if not his wisdom) are great - like saving Hermione from the troll. But other times his motives are not any better than Snapes - like causing explosions, stealing, drugging other kids, all to try to prove that a kid he didn't like was up to no good and trying to set a monster out at the school. Actually, Snape's motivation in following Remus was better than Harry's rulebreaking for trying to prove that Draco was letting loose Slytherin's monster. Snape actually knew that the Marauders were doing pretty bad things, and they were in fact committing far worse actions than he even knew of, whereas Harry only suspected Draco because Draco was a snotty, arrogant and prejudiced kid who Harry didn't like, and in fact, at that time Draco wasn't involved in anywhere nearly as bad activities as Harry wanted to believe.
PeskyPixie - Aug 11, 2008 5:56 pm (#205 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 7:11 pm
"And, for the umpteenth time myself, if Snape was stupid enough to listen to his arch-enemy and go down the tunnel at his rival's suggestion... I mean, come on. He would hardly have any right to think anyone else "disgusts" him after his own behavior of snooping and skulking around just to try to get someone else into trouble." -Quinn
If Snape had died Sirius would have been in big trouble and he would have deserved it. It doesn't matter how annoying someone is, you have no right to cross the line which could result in their death.
When these things happen in the Muggle world (and a trial for a similar one where the victim actually agreed to meet up with his arch-enemy at a designated spot in a lonely part of town, has recently been in the news where I live) the dead victim is not blamed for being 'stupid'.
Solitaire - Aug 11, 2008 7:08 pm (#206 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 8:23 pm
If Snape had died Sirius would have been in big trouble and he would have deserved it.
It depends on who knew what Sirius had planned. It couldn't have been too many, considering the confidential nature of Lupin's "furry little problem." What if James had never found out what was going down and Snape hadn't been stopped from down the tunnel? If no one else had known of the plan, it would have just looked like Snape had been sneaking around where he didn't belong and had gotten into trouble. Quite honestly, if James hadn't stopped Snape, that might well have happened, because I am not sure Sirius would have confessed ... are you?
When I stop to think about it, Snape and Harry are a lot alike in the "snooping" department. Both are very curious about what others are up to:
Petunia accuses him of spying on her and Lily in the park.
Later she accuses him of sneaking around in her room and finding her letter from Dumbledore.
Lily as well as the Marauders say he sneaks around trying to find out where they go at night.
Aberforth catches him listening at the door in the Hog's Head, where he overhears Sibyll's prophecy.
He hides under the invisibility cloak in the shrieking shack, listening in on Remus and Sirius.
When Snape gets angry with Harry for looking in his Pensieve, I agree that it was a personal violation on Harry's part. Still, I have to say that Snape made it awfully tempting for Harry to look!
Solitaire
Edited
Quinn Crockett - Aug 11, 2008 8:51 pm (#207 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 9:51 pm
Snape's motivation in following Remus was better than Harry's rulebreaking for trying to prove that Draco was letting loose Slytherin's monster. - Snape's only "motivation" was trying to expose Lupin. Just like at the end of PA.
I agree with Solitaire that we have ample evidence that Snape was a sneaky little so-and-so. I'm sure this served him well during his stint as a spy for Dumbledore, however in general practice most people find this an objectionable idiosyncrasy.
Dryleaves - Aug 11, 2008 11:54 pm (#208 of 2988)
Snape's only "motivation" was trying to expose Lupin. Just like at the end of PA. (Quinn)
Snape often seems to see the Marauders as one and may very well have been convinced that Remus was in on the prank. Just like Harry often believes the worst about Draco (and about Snape) I think Snape's suspicions about the Marauders can take the same proportions. He may very well have believed that they all actually wanted to kill him and that James then realized that they might get into trouble for it.
Later in life Snape should of course be able to realize in what a terrible situation Lupin was put by his friend and that the Marauders are in fact four separate people, but he does not and supposes that Remus must have supported Sirius all the time and refuses to believe anything else. I think he finds it very hard to admit to himself that he might have been wrong. The Marauders did treat him in a very bad way and he still seems to see it all in black and white. This may not give him any adult points or excuse some of his actions, but I think it is a rather realistic reaction that you want to think about those you consider to have humiliated you as bad all through. It sort of makes it easier.
Of course this has disastrous consequences for Remus Lupin and I do not think Snape's way of letting the information about Lupin be known was the best way, as it was not for him to decide Lupin's future as a teacher at Hogwarts. Still, Lupin had already gotten himself into trouble when forgetting to take his potion, so if Dumbledore had wanted to he would have had a good reason to sack him. But it was not up to Snape.
I think Harry gladly would have gone to the Whomping Willow if Draco had told him to. What makes you a sneaky little so-and-so? No friends and a large nose?
wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2008 12:59 am (#209 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 2:05 am
Snape's only "motivation" was trying to expose Lupin. (Quinn)
Yes, but why did he want to expose him? According to Lupin and Sirius in POA, Snape was always sneaking around trying to find something to get them expelled. He wasn't just trying to expose Lupin without a motive behind it -- like running around ferreting out any random person's secrets just to expose them. No, his motive was to find reasons to get the Marauders expelled. And why would he want them expelled? Was he out trying to get any students expelled? No, it was the Marauders he wanted expelled.
That's the whole point, even according to Lupin and Sirius. Snape wanted the Marauders expelled and was trying to find evidence to get them expelled.
From his discussion with Lily, we learn that had Snape suspected Lupin was a werewolf. But the motivation in finding proof of that wasn't just to find a random student's dark secret and expose it. The motivation is found in Snape's ongoing endeavor to find some reasons to get the Marauders expelled and that would probably include anything that would get them expelled, whether it be as an entire group, or one at a time.
And why did he want them expelled in particular? Obviously because of the animosity between them. And what do we learn of the general form that animosity took? We are shown in the series that it took the form of bullying by the Marauders toward Snape, and that the bullying went generally unchecked by the teachers and headmaster.
I think Harry gladly would have gone to the Whomping Willow if Draco had told him to. (Dryleaves)
Great point. And Harry does do some foolish things in his sometimes justified and sometimes unjustified efforts to expose Draco as an evil doer. Think of HBP. It was really rather stupid to sneak into Draco's train compartment to spy on him. So when Draco petrified him and broke Harry's nose and left him on the train, does Harry's foolish decision to spy on Draco make it Harry's fault that he got hurt?
mona amon - Aug 12, 2008 5:06 am (#210 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 6:41 am
I also think that Dumbledore here maybe furhter tests Snape's love for Lily to see if it is genuine, whether Snape just wants or desires her or if he loves her. (Dryleaves)
I feel Snape had already passed that test by risking his life and coming to Dumbledore to save her. That should have been enough to convince Dumbledore that his love for Lily was the real thing. Now he wants to know whether he cares at all about anyone other than her.
However, there is one teensy thing I have to add to Snape's request to Voldy: "Kill the child, but please, for my sake, spare the mother. She's hot." Snape seems to have tailored his request to resemble desire rather than love ... still, it seems like something Voldy would find gross. (Pesky)
It's possible, but it implies that he thought the whole thing out quite carefully, and I like to think he was hopelessly distraught and incapable of thinking clearly or practising occlumency, and he just blurted out his feelings as soon as Voldy told him what he was planning to do. We are not shown the scene where Snape asks Voldemort to spare Lily's life, but we are shown a scene where he approaches a wizard whom he fears and asks him to keep her safe, and he is completely distraught, hides nothing from Dumbledore, and pours out all his feelings. I feel the scene with LV would have been similar. But fortunately for Severus, Voldemort wouldn't have thought of it as 'love' because he never felt any and has no understanding of that emotion. So he would assume that Snape 'desired' Lily. I doubt if he ever felt any 'desire' either, I agree with you that he probably found it gross but I imagine he'd have some understanding of it and be willing to condone it in his DEs.
I'm not saying that it was this way, but it is a scenario that fits in with Voldemort's assumption that Snape desired Lily, without actually hearing it from Snape.
I don't think JKR meant for us to think that the bullying was kind of accepted in the way of Tom Brown's Schooldays. (Wynnleaf)
I agree with this. Dumbledore was modern enough in his outlook to object strongly to teachers manhandling his students. He really should have investigated the prank and put an end to the bullying, as you say in an earlier post.
Being bullied is a completely separate matter and had absolutely nothing to do with Snape making his own decision to creep off down the willow tunnel in the middle of the night...(Quinn)
Once again I agree completely with Wynnleaf- it had everything to do with the bullying issue. If the Marauders had not bullied Snape, he would not have been sneaking around this bunch of Gryffindors at all.
ETA: If no one else had known of the plan, it would have just looked like Snape had been sneaking around where he didn't belong and had gotten into trouble. Quite honestly, if James hadn't stopped Snape, that might well have happened, because I am not sure Sirius would have confessed ... (Soli)
In that case it would have been only Dumbledore and Lupin who were in trouble. Dumbledore for allowing a werewolf to study in the school and thereby bringing about the death of a student, and Lupin would have had to leave Hogwarts.
Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2008 8:32 am (#211 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 9:49 am
I have seen it repeatedly assumed that James was a bully. I do not think that the text supports this. James, and Sirius, are ragging people on the train to Hogwarts. This is what boys do and the proper response is to rag back. Snape did not seem to know the rules of the game. It is not bullying it is getting to know people.
In the worst memory scene it looks to me as if Sirius is the instigator of the situation. By this point James and Severus are enemies and rivals for a girl. If they treated each other with kindness it would be quite a surprise.
We also know from Severus' memory of conversations with Lily that he seems to have had a group of friends with iffy behaviors. Since we see only his views and selected memories it would seem that he gave as good as he got.
wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2008 9:10 am (#212 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 10:15 am
Steve, I think the text does support it and in several more instances than the ones you mention.
1. The initial instance on the train shows James aggression toward Snape solely because of Snape's interest in Slytherin. Further, JKR gives James almost the exact same wording she gave to Draco when James comments on Slytherin. (Having the same wording as Draco isn't a plot or character point, but it does show JKR making a parallel between James and another arrogant bully.)
2. The Worst Memory scene is not just an incident between mutual enemies. We can see Lily's comment about "what's he ever done to you" as a clue that Snape isn't typically aggressive toward James, at least publicly. We see James' comment to Lily of "don't make me hex you" - a very typical bully attitude that they were somehow forced to hurt the victim by the victim's own actions. We see the ganging up on Snape and hurting him while he's unable to move and disarmed, typically viewed as cowardly behavior.
3. We know from the HBP detention records that James and Sirius were often caught hexing other kids, not just Snape.
4. Although Lupin and Sirius assert that Snape "gave as good as he got," the wording implies that he was defending himself from what "he got" rather than attacking the Marauders.
5. According to Lupin and Sirius, James continued to attack Snape even after the Worst Memory scene and at a point when James was hiding his aggression toward Snape from Lily. Because James was able to choose the time and place of his confrontations with Snape (or how could he keep it from Lily?), we can see that he must have been the primary instigator of their conflicts.
6. Snape claims that the Marauders always attacked him when he was outnumbered, once again suggesting a cowardly, bullying method of aggression.
7. JKR gives another clue which compares James to another known bully. She gives James a gang that includes a boy named Peter, who is a rat. She gives Dudley a gang with a boy named Piers (Peter) who is rat-faced. And in the Worst Memory scene, she has Harry think of it as similar to Dudley's attacks.
These are not all direct character evidence or proof, but given the lack of any other evidence to the contrary, and the various cues that JKR seems to use - parallels to other bullies - it is far more than an assumption that James is a bully.
It is true that we only see scenes of James that are from Snape's memories. But it is also true that we only see the scenes of James that JKR felt were important for us to see. If she had felt it important to give us a scene showing how good James was (and many people thought she would do that in DH), she could easily have done it. She chose not to, so we can only assume that she didn't consider showing us a good side of James as important.
Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2008 10:07 am (#213 of 2988)
1. The train scene seems to me to be normal boy behavior. Snape did not know how to respond.
2. "at least publicly' mmmm
3. We have no information on Snape's detention records since he directed Harry in another direction.
4. "gave as good as he got" mmmm I don't agree about the implication of the wording.
5. Indeed, they continued to be enemies. I see no reason to thing that Snape did not do the same.
6. Snape's claims seem to me to be just that, his claims. What you would expect a person to do who wanted sympathy.
7. I'll have to think about.
Other evidence. James dies a hero. He is also an avowed enemy of the dark arts.
PeskyPixie - Aug 12, 2008 10:20 am (#214 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 11:41 am
Snape has many faults, however, I don't blame a kid for not knowing how to take a 'ragging' or how to respond to one. Not all children are the same and they shouldn't be expected to have identical reactions either. I find it very disturbing to claim that it is natural for boys to be aggressive towards one another and that the boy who doesn't know how to participate in this type of relationship is at fault for bringing the bullying upon himself. Very disturbing ...
Harry and Neville have completely different responses to Draco. I'd say Harry's is by far healthier but Neville's emotions are just as legitimate. If he were as snappy as young Snape but got laughed at by Draco anyway, would we accuse him of not knowing how to take a ragging?
I find it quite weird that just because we don't like the person Severus grows up to become we try to fault his reactions as a child (and a neglected child at that) in ways in which we would never judge another child.
By the way, even if Snape chooses which memories he chucks in the Pensieve (well, actually, it's JKR's decision, but let's go with it ...) the memories themselves are objective and up for unbiased analysis, as long as they have not been tampered with. As such, I don't see James as being anywhere as sweet as Harry as a teen. Sure, we get a glimpse of his principles and I'm sure that as he matures into an adult his noble qualities become more pronounced, but he's a brat for most of that scene. Even Sirius doesn't protest that Snape was attacked for fun, because he was 'bored'. He is ashamed of it as an adult.
Now, maybe there is some sort of logic to this which I do not understand, but I don't think Snape is at fault for this attack or the first confrontation aboard the Hogwarts Express.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 12, 2008 10:45 am (#215 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 12:13 pm
He wasn't just trying to expose Lupin without a motive behind it -- like running around ferreting out any random person's secrets just to expose them. - I'm sure Petunia would have quite a different opinion on Snape's "ferreting out any random person's secrets".
Harry's foolish decision to spy on Draco make it Harry's fault that he got hurt? - Yes, it does. If Harry had minded his own business, he never would have got hurt.
If the Marauders had not bullied Snape, he would not have been sneaking around this bunch of Gryffindors at all. - If Snape hadn't been skulking around, they wouldn't have bullied him. Frankly, if someone was trying to get me in trouble all the time, I would have jinxed him on sight too. It was Snape's inflated sense of vengeance that kept him going back for more.
1. The initial instance on the train shows James aggression toward Snape solely because of Snape's interest in Slytherin. - I agree with Steve, and posted as much a while back. James is feeling out his compartment mates to see who will likely be someone he can be friends with. He has already heard Snape's opinion and ruled him a no go. The remark is directed, therefore, at the other two: Sirius and Lily. The former takes up James's view and the two become instant friends. Lily leaves the compartment all together, with Snape in tow.
Further, JKR gives James almost the exact same wording she gave to Draco when James comments on Slytherin. (Having the same wording as Draco isn't a plot or character point, but it does show JKR making a parallel between James and another arrogant bully.) - All it shows is that the biggest demonstration there is of how much an incoming student may dislike a particular House is to threaten to leave if they're put there.
2. The Worst Memory scene is not just an incident between mutual enemies. We can see Lily's comment about "what's he ever done to you" as a clue that Snape isn't typically aggressive toward James, at least publicly. - It's a clue that Snape's aggression toward James is not something he thought Lily should know about. Best to keep himself looking the passive, innocent victim.
We see James' comment to Lily of "don't make me hex you" - a very typical bully attitude that they were somehow forced to hurt the victim by the victim's own actions. - It's also a very typical way a teenage boy flirts with a girl, the muggle equivalent being wrestling and tussling around, which is pretty good way to get physically close to someone you like without actually declaring this. The threat of a hex is James's way of signifying he likes her.
3. We know from the HBP detention records that James and Sirius were often caught hexing other kids, not just Snape. - Only one hex is mentioned in the detention records. The rest are described as "petty misdeeds".
4. Although Lupin and Sirius assert that Snape "gave as good as he got," the wording implies that he was defending himself from what "he got" rather than attacking the Marauders. - The wording implies that there was an equal exchange of hexing on both sides.
5. According to Lupin and Sirius, James continued to attack Snape even after the Worst Memory scene and at a point when James was hiding his aggression toward Snape from Lily. Because James was able to choose the time and place of his confrontations with Snape (or how could he keep it from Lily?), we can see that he must have been the primary instigator of their conflicts. -
What Lupin actually says is, "[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't expect James to take that lying down, could you?" (OP ch. 29) That sounds like a pretty clear indication that it was, in fact, Snape who was the aggressor, not James. As for James "choosing the time and place of his confrontations" I don't know where you're getting that because it's not in the text anywhere.
6. Snape claims that the Marauders always attacked him when he was outnumbered, once again suggesting a cowardly, bullying method of aggression. - Sure he claims that. He sees them as a single entity, not four separate people. If one was there, in Snape's mind, they all were.
7. JKR gives another clue which compares James to another known bully. She gives James a gang that includes a boy named Peter, who is a rat. She gives Dudley a gang with a boy named Piers (Peter) who is rat-faced.
Oh, come on. JKR also gave an off-camera character the surname "Evans" - but he had nothing to do with the story at all.
JKR's primary tendency is to give her characters alliterative names. Piers Polkiss, Dudley Dursley, Severus Snape, Peter Pettigrew, Minerva McGonagall, Poppy Pomfrey, Luna Lovegood, etc etc. Yes, there is a similarity in the names Piers and Peter. But it doesn't mean anything.
wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2008 12:11 pm (#216 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 1:15 pm
As regards James being the one to choose the time and place of his confrontations with Snape during the time James was dating Lily, Sirius said:
She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth, " said Sirius. "I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?"
In other words, James made sure that the jinxing of Snape happened when Lily wasn't around. But if Snape was out attacking James, then how could James control that? It's only if James was the one instigating the attacks that he could make sure they occurred when Lily wouldn't hear about them.
The Piers/Peter thing is a whole lot more of a parallel than JKR simply using a familiar name inadvertently for an unimportant character. Piers actually means Peter. Both are "rats" in one way or another. Both like to follow bullies. Sirius said that Peter gravitated to the biggest bully in the playground - Sirius meant LV, but if Peter was really the type to follow bullies, then what about his following the Marauders around? And it is Harry who makes the connection between between his own being bullied and humiliated like that by Dudley and his gang and what James and Sirius do to Snape. There's a lot more correlations between Piers and Peter than just some accidental use of a name.
We see James' comment to Lily of "don't make me hex you" - a very typical bully attitude that they were somehow forced to hurt the victim by the victim's own actions. (wynnleaf)
It's also a very typical way a teenage boy flirts with a girl, the muggle equivalent being wrestling and tussling around, which is pretty good way to get physically close to someone you like without actually declaring this. The threat of a hex is James's way of signifying he likes her. (Quinn)
So are you saying that in real life if a guy threatens to hit a girl who doesn't do as he wants, like "don't make me hit you" it's flirting?? As I understand it, it's more like an indicator that the guy is likely to be abusive eventually. Hardly any woman or girl I know would consider that flirting. The only girls that would consider it so would most likely be advised by their more wise moms to avoid any such fellow.
It's a clue that Snape's aggression toward James is not something he thought Lily should know about. Best to keep himself looking the passive, innocent victim. (Quinn)
But since we have no examples of any such supposed aggression by Snape -- in memories, comments by Lily or other characters, detention records, comments by teachers -- there's nothing much to back that up except Sirius and Lupin's comments at a moment when they are trying to win back Harry's goodwill for themselves and James and make the memory that he saw seem less awful.
Only one hex is mentioned in the detention records. The rest are described as "petty misdeeds". (Quinn)
Even Lupin and Sirius admit that it was only in his 7th year that James stopped "hexing people just for the fun of it." That implies it was more than just Snape and one other person.
Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2008 12:24 pm (#217 of 2988)
James made sure that the jinxing of Snape happened when Lily wasn't around-It seems to me that Severus did the same thing.
Piers+Peter Yes. But it can also be used to show a contrast. I'm not that good at literary criticism so will leave it there.
Oh, Pesky One, I agree that James is not as sweet as Harry. He does seem to have a touch of something. I see his train ride as trying to take a leadership position. A move which seems to have worked. (I'm not certain of this since in the Worst Memory scene I see Sirius as the driving force and in the 'Prank' Sirius also seems to have been the instigator.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 12, 2008 2:41 pm (#218 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 4:05 pm
So are you saying that in real life if a guy threatens to hit a girl who doesn't do as he wants, like "don't make me hit you" it's flirting?? - Not only is that not what I said at all, it isn't even close to the analogy I used, which you even quoted in your post.
But if Snape was out attacking James, then how could James control that? - Where are you even getting that James was "in control" of Snape attacking him? Clearly this couldn't have been possible.
It's only if James was the one instigating the attacks that he could make sure they occurred when Lily wouldn't hear about them. - This simply isn't true. As Steve Newton points out, Snape, had to have been equal in making sure to attack James only when Lily wasn't around to see it.
... since we have no examples of any such supposed aggression by Snape... there's nothing much to back that up ... -
That's not true. We have his behavior in Harry's time as an example of his aggression. If Snape's treatment of Harry is bad now, imagine how he would have acted if he'd had the freedom to pull out a wand against whoever was bothering him.
We also have the fact that he created the Sectumsempra spell - clearly not a defensive spell - which Snape, himself, indicated was "for enemies" and which he, himself, also calls "such Dark magic" in front of Harry. Lupin recognizes the spell immediately, and says of it "Sectumsempra was always a specialty of Snape's" meaning Snape must have used it often enough for it to have become known as his "specialty".
We also have plenty of examples of him sneaking around after people. Coupled with the comments that "he gave as good as he got" and the aforementioned "[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James" I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that Snape did attack James and/or Sirius on the sly, and in equal measure.
I just don't buy the Piers/Peter thing. Harry's feelings on the Worst Memory would have been the same regardless of the names of Dudley's gang. The author could have called them Huey, Dewey and Louis and it wouldn't have made any difference.
Solitaire - Aug 12, 2008 6:55 pm (#219 of 2988)
Excellent points, Steve and Quinn. We must remember that we have not had the benefit of looking at carefully selected memories from James's Pensieve. It might contain some rather interesting memories of Snape ... memories he didn't include in his own.
As to a lack of aggressive behavior by Snape, I agree with Quinn. Snape bullies and abuses Harry to the fullest extent of his authority. He is biased in the extreme and initiates hostilities with Harry from the moment they come into contact, without any excuse at all. I will admit that Harry eventually begins to do things which get him into legitimate trouble because he does not trust Snape. That, however, is Snape's doing. Harry may have DD's assurances that Snape is loyal, but it must be hard for a kid to believe that a person who treats him so hatefully and abusively could possibly be trusted. I wouldn't trust someone like that ... would you?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2008 7:07 pm (#220 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 8:13 pm
So are you saying that in real life if a guy threatens to hit a girl who doesn't do as he wants, like "don't make me hit you" it's flirting?? (wynnleaf)
- Not only is that not what I said at all, it isn't even close to the analogy I used, which you even quoted in your post. (Quinn)
Sorry about that. Actually I didn't think you did mean it that way, but I don't see how what James threatened is any different in severity from threatening to hit another person. It seems to me that you're equating James' threat to hex Lily as like in real life a guy wrestling around with someone. But hexes commonly used in the series are much more serious. Ginny's Bat Boggy Hex is used effectively in serious fights. The stinging hex apparently really hurts. And Harry's broom was hexed by Quirrell. So hexing someone seems to me more equivalent to someone in real life hitting another person.
Where are you even getting that James was "in control" of Snape attacking him? Clearly this couldn't have been possible. (Quinn)
Exactly. James couldn't have controlled when Snape instigated attacks. Yet we know that James was able to control what Lily saw or heard about and made sure she didn't hear about him fighting Snape. Therefore, he must have been the one instigating the attacks. Besides, if Snape had been attacking him, he'd have had an excellent excuse for Lily about why they were still fighting. No need to keep it secret.
We have his behavior in Harry's time as an example of his aggression. If Snape's treatment of Harry is bad now, imagine how he would have acted if he'd had the freedom to pull out a wand against whoever was bothering him. (Quinn)
Snape's behavior to Harry was verbally aggressive, but not physically aggressive. If Snape was physically aggressive by nature, why not take the opportunity to act on that while keeping his "cover" as a Death Eater? What better excuse than to engage in some physical aggression than "I had to join in to keep my cover." But we have no indication that Snape was physically aggressive as an adult (great at defensive magic, of course). Even in his argument with Sirius in OOTP, it is Sirius who draws his wand first.
And yes, I agree there are enough examples of Snape sneaking around to show that it was something he regularly did. But did he randomly sneak around on everybody or just people whom he suspected were up to no good? Like Harry, Snape sneaks around quite a bit trying to get evidence on people he suspects of wrongdoing (or knows are doing wrong). We don't think that's wrong for Harry. Why is it wrong for Snape?
I suppose it's a bit of a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" situation. Did Snape sneak around looking for dirt on the Marauders because they were attacking him? Or did they attack him because he had chosen them (for some inexplicable reason - Lily didn't like James at first and James didn't act like he cared about her on the train) as objects of sneakiness? That was a big question prior to DH - who started it. I felt JKR gave us hints that it was the future Marauders who started the physical aggression, beginning with the tripping on the train.
PeskyPixie - Aug 12, 2008 7:09 pm (#221 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 8:20 pm
Soli, I don't think anyone here disagrees with what you have said. Harry is not at fault for the creation of the rocky (to put it mildly) relationship which he and Snape share.
Steve, it is that certain something about James (pompousness? arrogance?) which ticks me off. I agree that from James' point of view he is creating his pack, of which he must be the leader. However, the kid needs to learn how to handle situations where the other person doesn't want to be his follower. His train scene really reminds me of Draco's train scene (PS/SS).
EDIT: mona, good points. I also wanted to clarify that what I meant by Voldy finding Snape's 'desire' ***snickers wildly at 'Snape' and 'desire' in the same sentence*** gross, is that Voldy is against the 'mating' of Pure-Bloods and Muggles. As such, I thought that maybe he finds Muggles gross, period. You know, as if they've got cooties or something. Thus, I was surprised that this 'desire' plea spared Snape a zapping from his Master.
mona amon - Aug 12, 2008 7:54 pm (#222 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 8:57 pm
In the worst memory scene it looks to me as if Sirius is the instigator of the situation. (Steve)
Steve, I just looked it up, and James is definitely the instigator. He's the one who first spots Snape, directs Sirius's attention towards him, calls out to him in an insulting manner and casts the first spell.
-------------
Good post#214, Pesky.
--------------
It was Snape's inflated sense of vengeance that kept him going back for more. (Quinn)
Quinn, I think you are implying here that the Marauders did bully Snape, or what did he need to feel vengeful about?
["What's he ever done to you?"- Lily]
It's a clue that Snape's aggression toward James is not something he thought Lily should know about. Best to keep himself looking the passive, innocent victim. (Quinn)
What evidence do you have for this? When Snape tells Harry that his father never used to attack him unless it was four on one, we have the overwhelming evidence of the Worst Memory to show that it was true. James did attack Snape. And it was four on one.There's nothing at all in the books to show that Snape started this feud, or was even the one who kept it going, at least till their fifth year.
It's also a very typical way a teenage boy flirts with a girl, the muggle equivalent being wrestling and tussling around, which is pretty good way to get physically close to someone you like without actually declaring this. The threat of a hex is James's way of signifying he likes her. (Quinn)
I don't get this, (maybe because of cultural differences as I'm from India), but surely one doesn't wrestle and tussle with a girl who hasn't yet shown any signs of liking you? As far as I can make out, there seems to be an unwritten rule that a boy doesn't hex a girl. Even Draco, Crabbe and Goyle do not retaliate when Hermione slaps Draco in POA.
["gave as good as he got,"]
The wording implies that there was an equal exchange of hexing on both sides. (Quinn)
True, and I'm glad Snape gave as good as he got. How terrible it would have been if he had taken all that bullying without fighting back. But the wording definitely implies that the one who 'gave as good as he got' was not the instigator, since you have to 'get' first before you can 'give as good as you get'. It implies retaliation (in equal measure) for something that has been done to one.
"[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't expect James to take that lying down, could you?"
This remark of Lupin's refers to the James and Snape of a later period, probably 6th and 7th year. By this time I think Snape might have become the instigator. It's even possible that James may have wanted to stop the mutual attacking that had now become firmly established between them (especially since he had 'got the girl'), but that Snape refused to let go. That doesn't alter the fact that James and gang were resonsible for starting the whole thing by bullying Snape in the early years.
We also have the fact that he created the Sectumsempra spell - clearly not a defensive spell - which Snape, himself, indicated was "for enemies"
But how do you know that he did not develop that spell specifically as a weapon to defend himself against the bullies who were attacking him?
Edit: Cross posted with soli, wynnleaf and Pesky.
Pesky!
Solitaire - Aug 12, 2008 8:10 pm (#223 of 2988)
how do you know that he did not develop that spell specifically as a weapon to defend himself against the bullies who were attacking him?
Hm ... everyone was so against Harry using an AK on Voldemort, yet it's okay to Sectumsempra one's classmates? Interesting ...
wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2008 8:21 pm (#224 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 9:28 pm
Hm ... everyone was so against Harry using an AK on Voldemort, yet it's okay to Sectumsempra one's classmates? Interesting ... (Solitaire)
I'm trying to think who had this opinion. Thinking, thinking, and still can't think who said that. Oh well.
Of course it's very wrong to use Sectumsempra on classmates, especially if he used it in the manner of Harry on Draco (and if so, why wasn't he expelled as McGonagall said would be justified??). Snape may have used some milder version of it on James' cheek, but if so, the cheek cut didn't seem to bleed dramatically. And if Snape was regularly using a strong version of it on the Marauders, wouldn't he have been expelled for continued use of a very dangerous dark magic spell?
But regardless of how Snape may have used Sectumsempra, the reason it was brought up in the discussion was in regards to the question of whether Snape was the instigator in the altercations between himself and the Marauders. If Snape had created Sectumsempra in order to combat attacks on himself, then that would have been as a defensive rather than offensive use. So even though it was a very wrong spell to create or use (if he did use it in school), his creating it does not mean he was instigating attacks on the Marauders and was physically aggressive. Since we know from Snape's words that he'd have felt he had a lot to defend against (4 against one attacks, he said) any fighting spell he created could have been meant as defense, not aggression.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 12, 2008 8:48 pm (#225 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 10:30 pm
Wynnleaf, I guess I just don't believe that James would have really hexed Lily. Hence the wrestling analogy. But I admit that, if he would have followed through, I would have to agree that it does at least border on "abusive" behavior - certainly the potential to be.
But I just really don't follow your logic about James "controlling the time and place" of his and Snape's ongoing battles. Snape would had to have attacked James behind Lily's back as well - which he must have done to elicit the remark, "Snape never missed an opportunity to hex James". How could Snape have never missed an opportunity without Lily finding out? Because he, like James, never did it when Lily was around.
Or are you saying that Snape attacked James whether or not Lily was around, but James only did it behind Lily's back?
But frankly, Lily doesn't seem that difficult a person to keep things from, if Lupin's issue is anything to go by. I mean, the fact that Snape, supposedly her "best friend", didn't even tell her the whole story of "the Prank" when it was in his interest to do so means she went to her death believing that James simply risked his life to save Snape. Whether or not we agree that James had an ulterior motive, Snape most certainly did. So why did he never tell Lily what really happened?
I agree with Mona Amon, that whatever had happened in the past, by the point in their school days where Lily and James are together, it was Snape who had become the instigator.
Snape's behavior to Harry was verbally aggressive, but not physically aggressive - Well, he could hardly be physically aggressive to Harry when he'd sworn his very life to protect the boy, now could he? Besides, attacking "the chosen one" - at least until OP - would have had the Hogwarts parents calling for Snape's head on a platter.
Yes, Mona, at least when I was growing up in on the West Coast of the US, boys did - and still do, in my experience observing my teenaged nieces and nephews - use playful physicality (i.e. tussling) to show a girl he was interested in her. If she likes him back, she'll play along. If not, she's more inclined to call him names and get away as fast as humanly possible - then later report the aberrant behavior to all her friends
But how do you know that he did not develop that spell specifically as a weapon to defend himself against the bullies who were attacking him? - It's not a defensive spell, it's meant specifically for attack. I mean, just look at what it does! Mercy! But who knows? Maybe that's how the Cruciatus Curse was invented - by someone who was bullied at school.
It's a clue that Snape's aggression toward James is not something he thought Lily should know about. Best to keep himself looking the passive, innocent victim. - Crockett
What evidence do you have for this? - Mona Amon
Oh, no "evidence". It's just my opinion of the character. I mean Snape isn't likely to tell Lily that he snuck up behind James and jinxed him, is he? No, he's far more likely to keep his own culpability quiet.
Look, I'm not saying that James and/or Sirius didn't bully Snape. What I'm saying is that Snape seems to have been a very willing participant in that relationship. I kind of think that's what James means when he says, "It's more that he exists".
Apparently, the Marauders and Snape continued their animosity after the prank. This suggests that Dumbledore only learned of Snape going down the tunnel and James "rescuing" him. Only Snape could have told him that he went down the tunnel at Sirius' suggestion, and that would have got him in as much trouble as Sirius. And made him seem really stupid.
My read is Snape got in trouble, and maybe some punishment (for being stupid) and told not to mention Lupin. James was a hero, which is how Lily heard the story. James saving her friend, and his enemy, Snape could have very well been a turning point in their relationship for Lily. How ironic that Snape was the cause for Lily turning to James!
In PS Dumbledore tells Harry only that James saved Snape's life. No mention of Sirius (which he wouldn't have wanted to, anyway.) After PoA it seemed Dumbledore told Harry a big lie, by omision. However, it could very well be that that is all Dumbledore knew.
wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2008 3:59 pm (#202 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 5:02 pm
Recently, I was watching the television versions of the Horatio Hornblower stories. It doesn't always follow the books, but it's a great series. The series starts with Hornblower as a midshipman on a ship in which one of the other midshipmen is a bully and regularly tries to intimidate the other young men and boys. The captain of the ship is quite elderly. Whether he knows about the situation we don't know, but he certainly does nothing to stop it. Later Hornblower ends up on another ship with the highly admirable Captain Pellew, a man who believes a captain should know about such things on his ship. When the actions of the bullying midshipman on the previous ship finally come to light, Horatio tries to tell Pellew that the other Captain shouldn't be blamed because he didn't know about the bullying. Pellew's comment is that it is the business of a captain to know about such things.
The Marauders were not doing their bullying solely in dark corners and abandoned corridors. No, they were blatantly attacking students in the open. The detention records we learn about in HBP bear testimony to their regularly being caught in aggressive confrontations with other students.
Given that history, Dumbledore absolutely should have investigated the Prank further and put an end to their bullying once and for all. He didn't, and it is a failure on his part, because not knowing is no excuse.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 11, 2008 4:45 pm (#203 of 2988)
And Orion is correct. - Wynnleaf
I'm sure what you meant to say was "I agree with Orion". Because none of us is "correct" or "incorrect" in our interpretation of the text. We are all just offering our various opinions. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer.
Anyway, I think we also need to remember that the Hogwarts environment is very much in the tradition of "Tom Brown's School Days" where the students regularly assault each other and build up an all out hatred over seemingly insignificant remarks or incidents. In these kinds of stories, the teachers don't really intervene except to punish those involved for whatever the specific incident was (i.e. fighting, being out of bounds, etc). They certainly don't have sit-down little chats with the bullies or their victims to try to hash out their differences or force them into some sort of long-term alternate behavior plan.
Sure, we do that now (mostly). But this is a fantasy novel wherein the school in question is very archaic in many respects (Quills, anyone? Why not a Rolling Writer? That doesn't require the use of magic.) Even McGonagall says (to Fake Moody) that to punish students "We give detentions".
In any case, Snape shouldn't have been sneaking around after the Marauders, should he? Being bullied is a completely separate matter and had absolutely nothing to do with Snape making his own decision to creep off down the willow tunnel in the middle of the night ("Nothing gives a student the right to be sneaking around at night!"). If he had stayed in bed like he was supposed to, the Prank never would have happened.
wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2008 5:56 pm (#204 of 2988)
I don't think JKR meant for us to think that the bullying was kind of accepted in the way of Tom Brown's Schooldays. JKR herself has talked a number of times about bullying that she went through while in school and at the time OOTP came out (with its numerous incidences of bullying) she was very outspoken about the evils of bullying. So I really don't think she intended us to look at bullying at the school and absolve the school because it's just "in the tradition" or whatever.
If he had stayed in bed like he was supposed to, the Prank never would have happened. (Quinn)
I know we've been over this many times. Still... on the one hand you're correct that if Snape had stayed in bed obviously he wouldn't have ended up in the tunnel. On the other hand, desperately wanting to get several prime school bullies expelled isn't a bad motivation, in my opinion. So yes, Snape was breaking the rules. But he was breaking the rules in order to prove that these out-of-control boys, who the school was clearly not able to control (note that they were even flagrantly endangering the countryside on a monthly basis), should be expelled.
Harry breaks rules quite a bit. Sometimes his motives (if not his wisdom) are great - like saving Hermione from the troll. But other times his motives are not any better than Snapes - like causing explosions, stealing, drugging other kids, all to try to prove that a kid he didn't like was up to no good and trying to set a monster out at the school. Actually, Snape's motivation in following Remus was better than Harry's rulebreaking for trying to prove that Draco was letting loose Slytherin's monster. Snape actually knew that the Marauders were doing pretty bad things, and they were in fact committing far worse actions than he even knew of, whereas Harry only suspected Draco because Draco was a snotty, arrogant and prejudiced kid who Harry didn't like, and in fact, at that time Draco wasn't involved in anywhere nearly as bad activities as Harry wanted to believe.
PeskyPixie - Aug 11, 2008 5:56 pm (#205 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 7:11 pm
"And, for the umpteenth time myself, if Snape was stupid enough to listen to his arch-enemy and go down the tunnel at his rival's suggestion... I mean, come on. He would hardly have any right to think anyone else "disgusts" him after his own behavior of snooping and skulking around just to try to get someone else into trouble." -Quinn
If Snape had died Sirius would have been in big trouble and he would have deserved it. It doesn't matter how annoying someone is, you have no right to cross the line which could result in their death.
When these things happen in the Muggle world (and a trial for a similar one where the victim actually agreed to meet up with his arch-enemy at a designated spot in a lonely part of town, has recently been in the news where I live) the dead victim is not blamed for being 'stupid'.
Solitaire - Aug 11, 2008 7:08 pm (#206 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 8:23 pm
If Snape had died Sirius would have been in big trouble and he would have deserved it.
It depends on who knew what Sirius had planned. It couldn't have been too many, considering the confidential nature of Lupin's "furry little problem." What if James had never found out what was going down and Snape hadn't been stopped from down the tunnel? If no one else had known of the plan, it would have just looked like Snape had been sneaking around where he didn't belong and had gotten into trouble. Quite honestly, if James hadn't stopped Snape, that might well have happened, because I am not sure Sirius would have confessed ... are you?
When I stop to think about it, Snape and Harry are a lot alike in the "snooping" department. Both are very curious about what others are up to:
Petunia accuses him of spying on her and Lily in the park.
Later she accuses him of sneaking around in her room and finding her letter from Dumbledore.
Lily as well as the Marauders say he sneaks around trying to find out where they go at night.
Aberforth catches him listening at the door in the Hog's Head, where he overhears Sibyll's prophecy.
He hides under the invisibility cloak in the shrieking shack, listening in on Remus and Sirius.
When Snape gets angry with Harry for looking in his Pensieve, I agree that it was a personal violation on Harry's part. Still, I have to say that Snape made it awfully tempting for Harry to look!
Solitaire
Edited
Quinn Crockett - Aug 11, 2008 8:51 pm (#207 of 2988)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 9:51 pm
Snape's motivation in following Remus was better than Harry's rulebreaking for trying to prove that Draco was letting loose Slytherin's monster. - Snape's only "motivation" was trying to expose Lupin. Just like at the end of PA.
I agree with Solitaire that we have ample evidence that Snape was a sneaky little so-and-so. I'm sure this served him well during his stint as a spy for Dumbledore, however in general practice most people find this an objectionable idiosyncrasy.
Dryleaves - Aug 11, 2008 11:54 pm (#208 of 2988)
Snape's only "motivation" was trying to expose Lupin. Just like at the end of PA. (Quinn)
Snape often seems to see the Marauders as one and may very well have been convinced that Remus was in on the prank. Just like Harry often believes the worst about Draco (and about Snape) I think Snape's suspicions about the Marauders can take the same proportions. He may very well have believed that they all actually wanted to kill him and that James then realized that they might get into trouble for it.
Later in life Snape should of course be able to realize in what a terrible situation Lupin was put by his friend and that the Marauders are in fact four separate people, but he does not and supposes that Remus must have supported Sirius all the time and refuses to believe anything else. I think he finds it very hard to admit to himself that he might have been wrong. The Marauders did treat him in a very bad way and he still seems to see it all in black and white. This may not give him any adult points or excuse some of his actions, but I think it is a rather realistic reaction that you want to think about those you consider to have humiliated you as bad all through. It sort of makes it easier.
Of course this has disastrous consequences for Remus Lupin and I do not think Snape's way of letting the information about Lupin be known was the best way, as it was not for him to decide Lupin's future as a teacher at Hogwarts. Still, Lupin had already gotten himself into trouble when forgetting to take his potion, so if Dumbledore had wanted to he would have had a good reason to sack him. But it was not up to Snape.
I think Harry gladly would have gone to the Whomping Willow if Draco had told him to. What makes you a sneaky little so-and-so? No friends and a large nose?
wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2008 12:59 am (#209 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 2:05 am
Snape's only "motivation" was trying to expose Lupin. (Quinn)
Yes, but why did he want to expose him? According to Lupin and Sirius in POA, Snape was always sneaking around trying to find something to get them expelled. He wasn't just trying to expose Lupin without a motive behind it -- like running around ferreting out any random person's secrets just to expose them. No, his motive was to find reasons to get the Marauders expelled. And why would he want them expelled? Was he out trying to get any students expelled? No, it was the Marauders he wanted expelled.
That's the whole point, even according to Lupin and Sirius. Snape wanted the Marauders expelled and was trying to find evidence to get them expelled.
From his discussion with Lily, we learn that had Snape suspected Lupin was a werewolf. But the motivation in finding proof of that wasn't just to find a random student's dark secret and expose it. The motivation is found in Snape's ongoing endeavor to find some reasons to get the Marauders expelled and that would probably include anything that would get them expelled, whether it be as an entire group, or one at a time.
And why did he want them expelled in particular? Obviously because of the animosity between them. And what do we learn of the general form that animosity took? We are shown in the series that it took the form of bullying by the Marauders toward Snape, and that the bullying went generally unchecked by the teachers and headmaster.
I think Harry gladly would have gone to the Whomping Willow if Draco had told him to. (Dryleaves)
Great point. And Harry does do some foolish things in his sometimes justified and sometimes unjustified efforts to expose Draco as an evil doer. Think of HBP. It was really rather stupid to sneak into Draco's train compartment to spy on him. So when Draco petrified him and broke Harry's nose and left him on the train, does Harry's foolish decision to spy on Draco make it Harry's fault that he got hurt?
mona amon - Aug 12, 2008 5:06 am (#210 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 6:41 am
I also think that Dumbledore here maybe furhter tests Snape's love for Lily to see if it is genuine, whether Snape just wants or desires her or if he loves her. (Dryleaves)
I feel Snape had already passed that test by risking his life and coming to Dumbledore to save her. That should have been enough to convince Dumbledore that his love for Lily was the real thing. Now he wants to know whether he cares at all about anyone other than her.
However, there is one teensy thing I have to add to Snape's request to Voldy: "Kill the child, but please, for my sake, spare the mother. She's hot." Snape seems to have tailored his request to resemble desire rather than love ... still, it seems like something Voldy would find gross. (Pesky)
It's possible, but it implies that he thought the whole thing out quite carefully, and I like to think he was hopelessly distraught and incapable of thinking clearly or practising occlumency, and he just blurted out his feelings as soon as Voldy told him what he was planning to do. We are not shown the scene where Snape asks Voldemort to spare Lily's life, but we are shown a scene where he approaches a wizard whom he fears and asks him to keep her safe, and he is completely distraught, hides nothing from Dumbledore, and pours out all his feelings. I feel the scene with LV would have been similar. But fortunately for Severus, Voldemort wouldn't have thought of it as 'love' because he never felt any and has no understanding of that emotion. So he would assume that Snape 'desired' Lily. I doubt if he ever felt any 'desire' either, I agree with you that he probably found it gross but I imagine he'd have some understanding of it and be willing to condone it in his DEs.
I'm not saying that it was this way, but it is a scenario that fits in with Voldemort's assumption that Snape desired Lily, without actually hearing it from Snape.
I don't think JKR meant for us to think that the bullying was kind of accepted in the way of Tom Brown's Schooldays. (Wynnleaf)
I agree with this. Dumbledore was modern enough in his outlook to object strongly to teachers manhandling his students. He really should have investigated the prank and put an end to the bullying, as you say in an earlier post.
Being bullied is a completely separate matter and had absolutely nothing to do with Snape making his own decision to creep off down the willow tunnel in the middle of the night...(Quinn)
Once again I agree completely with Wynnleaf- it had everything to do with the bullying issue. If the Marauders had not bullied Snape, he would not have been sneaking around this bunch of Gryffindors at all.
ETA: If no one else had known of the plan, it would have just looked like Snape had been sneaking around where he didn't belong and had gotten into trouble. Quite honestly, if James hadn't stopped Snape, that might well have happened, because I am not sure Sirius would have confessed ... (Soli)
In that case it would have been only Dumbledore and Lupin who were in trouble. Dumbledore for allowing a werewolf to study in the school and thereby bringing about the death of a student, and Lupin would have had to leave Hogwarts.
Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2008 8:32 am (#211 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 9:49 am
I have seen it repeatedly assumed that James was a bully. I do not think that the text supports this. James, and Sirius, are ragging people on the train to Hogwarts. This is what boys do and the proper response is to rag back. Snape did not seem to know the rules of the game. It is not bullying it is getting to know people.
In the worst memory scene it looks to me as if Sirius is the instigator of the situation. By this point James and Severus are enemies and rivals for a girl. If they treated each other with kindness it would be quite a surprise.
We also know from Severus' memory of conversations with Lily that he seems to have had a group of friends with iffy behaviors. Since we see only his views and selected memories it would seem that he gave as good as he got.
wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2008 9:10 am (#212 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 10:15 am
Steve, I think the text does support it and in several more instances than the ones you mention.
1. The initial instance on the train shows James aggression toward Snape solely because of Snape's interest in Slytherin. Further, JKR gives James almost the exact same wording she gave to Draco when James comments on Slytherin. (Having the same wording as Draco isn't a plot or character point, but it does show JKR making a parallel between James and another arrogant bully.)
2. The Worst Memory scene is not just an incident between mutual enemies. We can see Lily's comment about "what's he ever done to you" as a clue that Snape isn't typically aggressive toward James, at least publicly. We see James' comment to Lily of "don't make me hex you" - a very typical bully attitude that they were somehow forced to hurt the victim by the victim's own actions. We see the ganging up on Snape and hurting him while he's unable to move and disarmed, typically viewed as cowardly behavior.
3. We know from the HBP detention records that James and Sirius were often caught hexing other kids, not just Snape.
4. Although Lupin and Sirius assert that Snape "gave as good as he got," the wording implies that he was defending himself from what "he got" rather than attacking the Marauders.
5. According to Lupin and Sirius, James continued to attack Snape even after the Worst Memory scene and at a point when James was hiding his aggression toward Snape from Lily. Because James was able to choose the time and place of his confrontations with Snape (or how could he keep it from Lily?), we can see that he must have been the primary instigator of their conflicts.
6. Snape claims that the Marauders always attacked him when he was outnumbered, once again suggesting a cowardly, bullying method of aggression.
7. JKR gives another clue which compares James to another known bully. She gives James a gang that includes a boy named Peter, who is a rat. She gives Dudley a gang with a boy named Piers (Peter) who is rat-faced. And in the Worst Memory scene, she has Harry think of it as similar to Dudley's attacks.
These are not all direct character evidence or proof, but given the lack of any other evidence to the contrary, and the various cues that JKR seems to use - parallels to other bullies - it is far more than an assumption that James is a bully.
It is true that we only see scenes of James that are from Snape's memories. But it is also true that we only see the scenes of James that JKR felt were important for us to see. If she had felt it important to give us a scene showing how good James was (and many people thought she would do that in DH), she could easily have done it. She chose not to, so we can only assume that she didn't consider showing us a good side of James as important.
Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2008 10:07 am (#213 of 2988)
1. The train scene seems to me to be normal boy behavior. Snape did not know how to respond.
2. "at least publicly' mmmm
3. We have no information on Snape's detention records since he directed Harry in another direction.
4. "gave as good as he got" mmmm I don't agree about the implication of the wording.
5. Indeed, they continued to be enemies. I see no reason to thing that Snape did not do the same.
6. Snape's claims seem to me to be just that, his claims. What you would expect a person to do who wanted sympathy.
7. I'll have to think about.
Other evidence. James dies a hero. He is also an avowed enemy of the dark arts.
PeskyPixie - Aug 12, 2008 10:20 am (#214 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 11:41 am
Snape has many faults, however, I don't blame a kid for not knowing how to take a 'ragging' or how to respond to one. Not all children are the same and they shouldn't be expected to have identical reactions either. I find it very disturbing to claim that it is natural for boys to be aggressive towards one another and that the boy who doesn't know how to participate in this type of relationship is at fault for bringing the bullying upon himself. Very disturbing ...
Harry and Neville have completely different responses to Draco. I'd say Harry's is by far healthier but Neville's emotions are just as legitimate. If he were as snappy as young Snape but got laughed at by Draco anyway, would we accuse him of not knowing how to take a ragging?
I find it quite weird that just because we don't like the person Severus grows up to become we try to fault his reactions as a child (and a neglected child at that) in ways in which we would never judge another child.
By the way, even if Snape chooses which memories he chucks in the Pensieve (well, actually, it's JKR's decision, but let's go with it ...) the memories themselves are objective and up for unbiased analysis, as long as they have not been tampered with. As such, I don't see James as being anywhere as sweet as Harry as a teen. Sure, we get a glimpse of his principles and I'm sure that as he matures into an adult his noble qualities become more pronounced, but he's a brat for most of that scene. Even Sirius doesn't protest that Snape was attacked for fun, because he was 'bored'. He is ashamed of it as an adult.
Now, maybe there is some sort of logic to this which I do not understand, but I don't think Snape is at fault for this attack or the first confrontation aboard the Hogwarts Express.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 12, 2008 10:45 am (#215 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 12:13 pm
He wasn't just trying to expose Lupin without a motive behind it -- like running around ferreting out any random person's secrets just to expose them. - I'm sure Petunia would have quite a different opinion on Snape's "ferreting out any random person's secrets".
Harry's foolish decision to spy on Draco make it Harry's fault that he got hurt? - Yes, it does. If Harry had minded his own business, he never would have got hurt.
If the Marauders had not bullied Snape, he would not have been sneaking around this bunch of Gryffindors at all. - If Snape hadn't been skulking around, they wouldn't have bullied him. Frankly, if someone was trying to get me in trouble all the time, I would have jinxed him on sight too. It was Snape's inflated sense of vengeance that kept him going back for more.
1. The initial instance on the train shows James aggression toward Snape solely because of Snape's interest in Slytherin. - I agree with Steve, and posted as much a while back. James is feeling out his compartment mates to see who will likely be someone he can be friends with. He has already heard Snape's opinion and ruled him a no go. The remark is directed, therefore, at the other two: Sirius and Lily. The former takes up James's view and the two become instant friends. Lily leaves the compartment all together, with Snape in tow.
Further, JKR gives James almost the exact same wording she gave to Draco when James comments on Slytherin. (Having the same wording as Draco isn't a plot or character point, but it does show JKR making a parallel between James and another arrogant bully.) - All it shows is that the biggest demonstration there is of how much an incoming student may dislike a particular House is to threaten to leave if they're put there.
2. The Worst Memory scene is not just an incident between mutual enemies. We can see Lily's comment about "what's he ever done to you" as a clue that Snape isn't typically aggressive toward James, at least publicly. - It's a clue that Snape's aggression toward James is not something he thought Lily should know about. Best to keep himself looking the passive, innocent victim.
We see James' comment to Lily of "don't make me hex you" - a very typical bully attitude that they were somehow forced to hurt the victim by the victim's own actions. - It's also a very typical way a teenage boy flirts with a girl, the muggle equivalent being wrestling and tussling around, which is pretty good way to get physically close to someone you like without actually declaring this. The threat of a hex is James's way of signifying he likes her.
3. We know from the HBP detention records that James and Sirius were often caught hexing other kids, not just Snape. - Only one hex is mentioned in the detention records. The rest are described as "petty misdeeds".
4. Although Lupin and Sirius assert that Snape "gave as good as he got," the wording implies that he was defending himself from what "he got" rather than attacking the Marauders. - The wording implies that there was an equal exchange of hexing on both sides.
5. According to Lupin and Sirius, James continued to attack Snape even after the Worst Memory scene and at a point when James was hiding his aggression toward Snape from Lily. Because James was able to choose the time and place of his confrontations with Snape (or how could he keep it from Lily?), we can see that he must have been the primary instigator of their conflicts. -
What Lupin actually says is, "[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't expect James to take that lying down, could you?" (OP ch. 29) That sounds like a pretty clear indication that it was, in fact, Snape who was the aggressor, not James. As for James "choosing the time and place of his confrontations" I don't know where you're getting that because it's not in the text anywhere.
6. Snape claims that the Marauders always attacked him when he was outnumbered, once again suggesting a cowardly, bullying method of aggression. - Sure he claims that. He sees them as a single entity, not four separate people. If one was there, in Snape's mind, they all were.
7. JKR gives another clue which compares James to another known bully. She gives James a gang that includes a boy named Peter, who is a rat. She gives Dudley a gang with a boy named Piers (Peter) who is rat-faced.
Oh, come on. JKR also gave an off-camera character the surname "Evans" - but he had nothing to do with the story at all.
JKR's primary tendency is to give her characters alliterative names. Piers Polkiss, Dudley Dursley, Severus Snape, Peter Pettigrew, Minerva McGonagall, Poppy Pomfrey, Luna Lovegood, etc etc. Yes, there is a similarity in the names Piers and Peter. But it doesn't mean anything.
wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2008 12:11 pm (#216 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 1:15 pm
As regards James being the one to choose the time and place of his confrontations with Snape during the time James was dating Lily, Sirius said:
She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth, " said Sirius. "I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?"
In other words, James made sure that the jinxing of Snape happened when Lily wasn't around. But if Snape was out attacking James, then how could James control that? It's only if James was the one instigating the attacks that he could make sure they occurred when Lily wouldn't hear about them.
The Piers/Peter thing is a whole lot more of a parallel than JKR simply using a familiar name inadvertently for an unimportant character. Piers actually means Peter. Both are "rats" in one way or another. Both like to follow bullies. Sirius said that Peter gravitated to the biggest bully in the playground - Sirius meant LV, but if Peter was really the type to follow bullies, then what about his following the Marauders around? And it is Harry who makes the connection between between his own being bullied and humiliated like that by Dudley and his gang and what James and Sirius do to Snape. There's a lot more correlations between Piers and Peter than just some accidental use of a name.
We see James' comment to Lily of "don't make me hex you" - a very typical bully attitude that they were somehow forced to hurt the victim by the victim's own actions. (wynnleaf)
It's also a very typical way a teenage boy flirts with a girl, the muggle equivalent being wrestling and tussling around, which is pretty good way to get physically close to someone you like without actually declaring this. The threat of a hex is James's way of signifying he likes her. (Quinn)
So are you saying that in real life if a guy threatens to hit a girl who doesn't do as he wants, like "don't make me hit you" it's flirting?? As I understand it, it's more like an indicator that the guy is likely to be abusive eventually. Hardly any woman or girl I know would consider that flirting. The only girls that would consider it so would most likely be advised by their more wise moms to avoid any such fellow.
It's a clue that Snape's aggression toward James is not something he thought Lily should know about. Best to keep himself looking the passive, innocent victim. (Quinn)
But since we have no examples of any such supposed aggression by Snape -- in memories, comments by Lily or other characters, detention records, comments by teachers -- there's nothing much to back that up except Sirius and Lupin's comments at a moment when they are trying to win back Harry's goodwill for themselves and James and make the memory that he saw seem less awful.
Only one hex is mentioned in the detention records. The rest are described as "petty misdeeds". (Quinn)
Even Lupin and Sirius admit that it was only in his 7th year that James stopped "hexing people just for the fun of it." That implies it was more than just Snape and one other person.
Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2008 12:24 pm (#217 of 2988)
James made sure that the jinxing of Snape happened when Lily wasn't around-It seems to me that Severus did the same thing.
Piers+Peter Yes. But it can also be used to show a contrast. I'm not that good at literary criticism so will leave it there.
Oh, Pesky One, I agree that James is not as sweet as Harry. He does seem to have a touch of something. I see his train ride as trying to take a leadership position. A move which seems to have worked. (I'm not certain of this since in the Worst Memory scene I see Sirius as the driving force and in the 'Prank' Sirius also seems to have been the instigator.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 12, 2008 2:41 pm (#218 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 4:05 pm
So are you saying that in real life if a guy threatens to hit a girl who doesn't do as he wants, like "don't make me hit you" it's flirting?? - Not only is that not what I said at all, it isn't even close to the analogy I used, which you even quoted in your post.
But if Snape was out attacking James, then how could James control that? - Where are you even getting that James was "in control" of Snape attacking him? Clearly this couldn't have been possible.
It's only if James was the one instigating the attacks that he could make sure they occurred when Lily wouldn't hear about them. - This simply isn't true. As Steve Newton points out, Snape, had to have been equal in making sure to attack James only when Lily wasn't around to see it.
... since we have no examples of any such supposed aggression by Snape... there's nothing much to back that up ... -
That's not true. We have his behavior in Harry's time as an example of his aggression. If Snape's treatment of Harry is bad now, imagine how he would have acted if he'd had the freedom to pull out a wand against whoever was bothering him.
We also have the fact that he created the Sectumsempra spell - clearly not a defensive spell - which Snape, himself, indicated was "for enemies" and which he, himself, also calls "such Dark magic" in front of Harry. Lupin recognizes the spell immediately, and says of it "Sectumsempra was always a specialty of Snape's" meaning Snape must have used it often enough for it to have become known as his "specialty".
We also have plenty of examples of him sneaking around after people. Coupled with the comments that "he gave as good as he got" and the aforementioned "[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James" I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that Snape did attack James and/or Sirius on the sly, and in equal measure.
I just don't buy the Piers/Peter thing. Harry's feelings on the Worst Memory would have been the same regardless of the names of Dudley's gang. The author could have called them Huey, Dewey and Louis and it wouldn't have made any difference.
Solitaire - Aug 12, 2008 6:55 pm (#219 of 2988)
Excellent points, Steve and Quinn. We must remember that we have not had the benefit of looking at carefully selected memories from James's Pensieve. It might contain some rather interesting memories of Snape ... memories he didn't include in his own.
As to a lack of aggressive behavior by Snape, I agree with Quinn. Snape bullies and abuses Harry to the fullest extent of his authority. He is biased in the extreme and initiates hostilities with Harry from the moment they come into contact, without any excuse at all. I will admit that Harry eventually begins to do things which get him into legitimate trouble because he does not trust Snape. That, however, is Snape's doing. Harry may have DD's assurances that Snape is loyal, but it must be hard for a kid to believe that a person who treats him so hatefully and abusively could possibly be trusted. I wouldn't trust someone like that ... would you?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2008 7:07 pm (#220 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 8:13 pm
So are you saying that in real life if a guy threatens to hit a girl who doesn't do as he wants, like "don't make me hit you" it's flirting?? (wynnleaf)
- Not only is that not what I said at all, it isn't even close to the analogy I used, which you even quoted in your post. (Quinn)
Sorry about that. Actually I didn't think you did mean it that way, but I don't see how what James threatened is any different in severity from threatening to hit another person. It seems to me that you're equating James' threat to hex Lily as like in real life a guy wrestling around with someone. But hexes commonly used in the series are much more serious. Ginny's Bat Boggy Hex is used effectively in serious fights. The stinging hex apparently really hurts. And Harry's broom was hexed by Quirrell. So hexing someone seems to me more equivalent to someone in real life hitting another person.
Where are you even getting that James was "in control" of Snape attacking him? Clearly this couldn't have been possible. (Quinn)
Exactly. James couldn't have controlled when Snape instigated attacks. Yet we know that James was able to control what Lily saw or heard about and made sure she didn't hear about him fighting Snape. Therefore, he must have been the one instigating the attacks. Besides, if Snape had been attacking him, he'd have had an excellent excuse for Lily about why they were still fighting. No need to keep it secret.
We have his behavior in Harry's time as an example of his aggression. If Snape's treatment of Harry is bad now, imagine how he would have acted if he'd had the freedom to pull out a wand against whoever was bothering him. (Quinn)
Snape's behavior to Harry was verbally aggressive, but not physically aggressive. If Snape was physically aggressive by nature, why not take the opportunity to act on that while keeping his "cover" as a Death Eater? What better excuse than to engage in some physical aggression than "I had to join in to keep my cover." But we have no indication that Snape was physically aggressive as an adult (great at defensive magic, of course). Even in his argument with Sirius in OOTP, it is Sirius who draws his wand first.
And yes, I agree there are enough examples of Snape sneaking around to show that it was something he regularly did. But did he randomly sneak around on everybody or just people whom he suspected were up to no good? Like Harry, Snape sneaks around quite a bit trying to get evidence on people he suspects of wrongdoing (or knows are doing wrong). We don't think that's wrong for Harry. Why is it wrong for Snape?
I suppose it's a bit of a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" situation. Did Snape sneak around looking for dirt on the Marauders because they were attacking him? Or did they attack him because he had chosen them (for some inexplicable reason - Lily didn't like James at first and James didn't act like he cared about her on the train) as objects of sneakiness? That was a big question prior to DH - who started it. I felt JKR gave us hints that it was the future Marauders who started the physical aggression, beginning with the tripping on the train.
PeskyPixie - Aug 12, 2008 7:09 pm (#221 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 8:20 pm
Soli, I don't think anyone here disagrees with what you have said. Harry is not at fault for the creation of the rocky (to put it mildly) relationship which he and Snape share.
Steve, it is that certain something about James (pompousness? arrogance?) which ticks me off. I agree that from James' point of view he is creating his pack, of which he must be the leader. However, the kid needs to learn how to handle situations where the other person doesn't want to be his follower. His train scene really reminds me of Draco's train scene (PS/SS).
EDIT: mona, good points. I also wanted to clarify that what I meant by Voldy finding Snape's 'desire' ***snickers wildly at 'Snape' and 'desire' in the same sentence*** gross, is that Voldy is against the 'mating' of Pure-Bloods and Muggles. As such, I thought that maybe he finds Muggles gross, period. You know, as if they've got cooties or something. Thus, I was surprised that this 'desire' plea spared Snape a zapping from his Master.
mona amon - Aug 12, 2008 7:54 pm (#222 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 8:57 pm
In the worst memory scene it looks to me as if Sirius is the instigator of the situation. (Steve)
Steve, I just looked it up, and James is definitely the instigator. He's the one who first spots Snape, directs Sirius's attention towards him, calls out to him in an insulting manner and casts the first spell.
-------------
Good post#214, Pesky.
--------------
It was Snape's inflated sense of vengeance that kept him going back for more. (Quinn)
Quinn, I think you are implying here that the Marauders did bully Snape, or what did he need to feel vengeful about?
["What's he ever done to you?"- Lily]
It's a clue that Snape's aggression toward James is not something he thought Lily should know about. Best to keep himself looking the passive, innocent victim. (Quinn)
What evidence do you have for this? When Snape tells Harry that his father never used to attack him unless it was four on one, we have the overwhelming evidence of the Worst Memory to show that it was true. James did attack Snape. And it was four on one.There's nothing at all in the books to show that Snape started this feud, or was even the one who kept it going, at least till their fifth year.
It's also a very typical way a teenage boy flirts with a girl, the muggle equivalent being wrestling and tussling around, which is pretty good way to get physically close to someone you like without actually declaring this. The threat of a hex is James's way of signifying he likes her. (Quinn)
I don't get this, (maybe because of cultural differences as I'm from India), but surely one doesn't wrestle and tussle with a girl who hasn't yet shown any signs of liking you? As far as I can make out, there seems to be an unwritten rule that a boy doesn't hex a girl. Even Draco, Crabbe and Goyle do not retaliate when Hermione slaps Draco in POA.
["gave as good as he got,"]
The wording implies that there was an equal exchange of hexing on both sides. (Quinn)
True, and I'm glad Snape gave as good as he got. How terrible it would have been if he had taken all that bullying without fighting back. But the wording definitely implies that the one who 'gave as good as he got' was not the instigator, since you have to 'get' first before you can 'give as good as you get'. It implies retaliation (in equal measure) for something that has been done to one.
"[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't expect James to take that lying down, could you?"
This remark of Lupin's refers to the James and Snape of a later period, probably 6th and 7th year. By this time I think Snape might have become the instigator. It's even possible that James may have wanted to stop the mutual attacking that had now become firmly established between them (especially since he had 'got the girl'), but that Snape refused to let go. That doesn't alter the fact that James and gang were resonsible for starting the whole thing by bullying Snape in the early years.
We also have the fact that he created the Sectumsempra spell - clearly not a defensive spell - which Snape, himself, indicated was "for enemies"
But how do you know that he did not develop that spell specifically as a weapon to defend himself against the bullies who were attacking him?
Edit: Cross posted with soli, wynnleaf and Pesky.
Pesky! Solitaire - Aug 12, 2008 8:10 pm (#223 of 2988)
how do you know that he did not develop that spell specifically as a weapon to defend himself against the bullies who were attacking him?
Hm ... everyone was so against Harry using an AK on Voldemort, yet it's okay to Sectumsempra one's classmates? Interesting ...
wynnleaf - Aug 12, 2008 8:21 pm (#224 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 9:28 pm
Hm ... everyone was so against Harry using an AK on Voldemort, yet it's okay to Sectumsempra one's classmates? Interesting ... (Solitaire)
I'm trying to think who had this opinion. Thinking, thinking, and still can't think who said that. Oh well.
Of course it's very wrong to use Sectumsempra on classmates, especially if he used it in the manner of Harry on Draco (and if so, why wasn't he expelled as McGonagall said would be justified??). Snape may have used some milder version of it on James' cheek, but if so, the cheek cut didn't seem to bleed dramatically. And if Snape was regularly using a strong version of it on the Marauders, wouldn't he have been expelled for continued use of a very dangerous dark magic spell?
But regardless of how Snape may have used Sectumsempra, the reason it was brought up in the discussion was in regards to the question of whether Snape was the instigator in the altercations between himself and the Marauders. If Snape had created Sectumsempra in order to combat attacks on himself, then that would have been as a defensive rather than offensive use. So even though it was a very wrong spell to create or use (if he did use it in school), his creating it does not mean he was instigating attacks on the Marauders and was physically aggressive. Since we know from Snape's words that he'd have felt he had a lot to defend against (4 against one attacks, he said) any fighting spell he created could have been meant as defense, not aggression.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 12, 2008 8:48 pm (#225 of 2988)
Edited Aug 12, 2008 10:30 pm
Wynnleaf, I guess I just don't believe that James would have really hexed Lily. Hence the wrestling analogy. But I admit that, if he would have followed through, I would have to agree that it does at least border on "abusive" behavior - certainly the potential to be.
But I just really don't follow your logic about James "controlling the time and place" of his and Snape's ongoing battles. Snape would had to have attacked James behind Lily's back as well - which he must have done to elicit the remark, "Snape never missed an opportunity to hex James". How could Snape have never missed an opportunity without Lily finding out? Because he, like James, never did it when Lily was around.
Or are you saying that Snape attacked James whether or not Lily was around, but James only did it behind Lily's back?
But frankly, Lily doesn't seem that difficult a person to keep things from, if Lupin's issue is anything to go by. I mean, the fact that Snape, supposedly her "best friend", didn't even tell her the whole story of "the Prank" when it was in his interest to do so means she went to her death believing that James simply risked his life to save Snape. Whether or not we agree that James had an ulterior motive, Snape most certainly did. So why did he never tell Lily what really happened?
I agree with Mona Amon, that whatever had happened in the past, by the point in their school days where Lily and James are together, it was Snape who had become the instigator.
Snape's behavior to Harry was verbally aggressive, but not physically aggressive - Well, he could hardly be physically aggressive to Harry when he'd sworn his very life to protect the boy, now could he? Besides, attacking "the chosen one" - at least until OP - would have had the Hogwarts parents calling for Snape's head on a platter.
Yes, Mona, at least when I was growing up in on the West Coast of the US, boys did - and still do, in my experience observing my teenaged nieces and nephews - use playful physicality (i.e. tussling) to show a girl he was interested in her. If she likes him back, she'll play along. If not, she's more inclined to call him names and get away as fast as humanly possible - then later report the aberrant behavior to all her friends
But how do you know that he did not develop that spell specifically as a weapon to defend himself against the bullies who were attacking him? - It's not a defensive spell, it's meant specifically for attack. I mean, just look at what it does! Mercy! But who knows? Maybe that's how the Cruciatus Curse was invented - by someone who was bullied at school.
It's a clue that Snape's aggression toward James is not something he thought Lily should know about. Best to keep himself looking the passive, innocent victim. - Crockett
What evidence do you have for this? - Mona Amon
Oh, no "evidence". It's just my opinion of the character. I mean Snape isn't likely to tell Lily that he snuck up behind James and jinxed him, is he? No, he's far more likely to keep his own culpability quiet.
Look, I'm not saying that James and/or Sirius didn't bully Snape. What I'm saying is that Snape seems to have been a very willing participant in that relationship. I kind of think that's what James means when he says, "It's more that he exists".
Last edited by Mona on Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:03 am; edited 4 times in total
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Dryleaves - Aug 13, 2008 12:22 am (#226 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 1:23 am
Look, I'm not saying that James and/or Sirius didn't bully Snape. What I'm saying is that Snape seems to have been a very willing participant in that relationship. I kind of think that's what James means when he says, "It's more that he exists". (Quinn)
I think James means exactly what he is saying. "It's more that he exists." I was being bullied in school and have later had friends who had the same experience and the only reasons they can find for their being bullied are things like "I had strange clothes", "I was shy", " it was because of my hair", "just because I existed". None of us participated willingly whether we fought back or tried to escape. I think reasons like these are the only ones the bully can come up with as well. And this is the only reason Harry can find for Snape bullying him, for example, that Snape hates him because he exists. (From a more distant perspective there are of course other explanations for bullying, such as insecurity and group dynamics, etc. )
So when I read this line I thought JKR wanted to say something about bullying. The whole situation in the worst memory scene is a classic bullying situation where you have a victim, a bully and his second, someone who is eager to watch it all, and someone who does not really like it but turns a blind eye, and then the crowd. It is about bullying, not about fighting or rivalry or revenge, etc.
wynnleaf - Aug 13, 2008 2:22 am (#227 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 3:26 am
Snape would had to have attacked James behind Lily's back as well - which he must have done to elicit the remark, "Snape never missed an opportunity to hex James". (Quinn)
I see I think. You're thinking that Snape "never missing the opportunity" means that Sirius and Lupin were referring to Snape instigating attacks. But that's not necessarily so. In the Worst Memory scene, James and Sirius act as though Snape doesn't have the right to even fight back and as though he has to be kind of "punished" for his defensive actions - such as scourgifying his mouth because he uses bad language when they torment him. They seemed to have the attitude, during that attack, that Snape retaliating was an offensive action.
So why did he never tell Lily what really happened? (Quinn)
Because first, DD had made Snape promise to tell no one what occurred, so Snape may have felt constrained about giving her more information. And also, in her conversation with Snape, Lily seems to have already made up her mind and didn't seem to want him to elaborate any more on the incident. She doesn't appear to want to hear Snape's side of events.
Well, he could hardly be physically aggressive to Harry when he'd sworn his very life to protect the boy, now could he? (Quinn)
Yes, but that's only your assumption, and therefore doesn't make any evidence that Snape was physically aggressive in school. Basically what you're saying is (in my words) that because you assume Snape would have been physically aggressive to Harry given the opportunity, he must therefore have been physically aggressive toward others. That is fallacious reasoning. We can all assume whatever we please, but to then use an assumption that isn't canon supported as evidence for a point about something else entirely isn't really evidence at all.
It's not a defensive spell, it's meant specifically for attack. (Quinn)
Another assumption, because Snape only said it was "for enemies". Nothing says it's an attack spell or "specifically for attack". Once again, your making an assumption unsubstantiated by the books and then using it as evidence to support another point. It's fine to assume that all on it's own, but your assumption doesn't make it evidence to support other things.
What I'm saying is that Snape seems to have been a very willing participant in that relationship. (Quinn)
I can certainly see why you say this, but it seems to be based not on the actual evidence in the books, but on a series of assumptions you make such as 1. Snape didn't want Lily to know about attacks he made on James (no evidence for this). 2. Sectumsempra is for attacks (no evidence). 3. Snape would have been physically aggressive to Harry is he could have been. Once again, no evidence.
My comments are much more closely based on what is actually stated in the books. 1. James actively wanted to keep his confrontations with Snape a secret from Lily and did. 2. The Marauders attacked Snape and others by ganging up and in a cowardly fashion of incapacitating the victim and then tormenting them. 3. James made the first aggressive move between the two (tripping on the train). 4. The only mention we have of Snape making what might be interpreted as offensive attacks on the Marauders is made by two of the former Marauders while they try to win back Harry's goodwill. 5. Snape said he was ganged up on by the Marauders and said (as an adult) that some tried to kill him. We know from canon that he therefore had ample reason in his own mind for creating defensive spells. 6. We know that Harry makes a correlation between what he sees in the Worst Memory and his own experiences with bullying. 7. We know that even during her criticisms of Snape that Lily never accuses him of bullying others or of attacking the Marauders. We actually see her ask James "what's he ever done to you?"
This is all hard canon evidence, not a series of assumptions.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2008 3:36 am (#228 of 2988)
I think the Worst Memory scene set us up to put the cart before the horse, until we got to DH and received more information. I know I assumed after OotP that Snape was picked on up to the Prank, and after that James straightened up. Now, after the information in DH, I don't think James bothered much with Snape before the Prank. He might have disliked him for the crowd and the Dark Arts that Snape was immersed in, but I see zero evidence that James went out of his way to target Snape specifically until after the Prank. I have to agree with Quinn and Steve that Snape spying on the Marauders and the Marauders bullying Snape has to do with some stupid attempt to impress Lily (I really feel sorry for the girl), and started in the fifth year.
Snape even tells us his big concern, that James fancies Lily, and he doesn't want her to like James back. There is no evidence at all before that point that the Marauders are bullying Snape at all. He went spying on the Marauders to find something prove to Lily that James wasn't actually that great, and it backfired (gotta love the irony). After that, James bullies Snape, because now Snape exists and annoys him and he stupidly thinks this will somehow impress Lily.
I really do think that the Worst Memory scene set up a string of assumptions that were shown to be otherwise in DH.
Solitaire - Aug 13, 2008 6:03 am (#229 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 7:12 am
I'm trying to think who had this opinion. So many people discussed this issue before DH came out that I can't even remember. All were suggesting Harry should defeat Voldy without using an AK ... which he did. But there were lengthy discussions on why it would be morally wrong, etc.
BTW, Harry used it without realizing what it was. Yes, this was stupid ... but stupid is different than vindictive or vengeful. Harry wouldn't even use an AK or stunning spell on the DEs chasing him out of Privet Drive in DH. I seriously doubt he'd have used Sectumsempra if he had known what it did. Snape knew what it did ... and he obviously used it often enough that Remus recognized it as his "specialty."
Solitaire
PeskyPixie - Aug 13, 2008 7:08 am (#230 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 8:25 am
I don't think the two were discussed together recently, Soli. I have read several posts expressing disappointment with Harry's use of the Cruciatus curse, but I don't think the same people gave Snape a pass on Sectumsempra.
I think JKR makes Lupin call Sectumsempra Snape's specialty because she was building up the 'Snape is a bad, bad boy' attitude before she stunned everyone with The Prince's Tale. Still, I don't feel this particular part of the story fits the world she has created.
See, there's no logic to Sectumsempra being a 'specialty' of Snape's at school because the nature of the spell is 'to cut' forever, meaning that if he went around hitting people with it, they'd bleed to death unless he sang them back to health. Likely, victims of this spell bleed to death or permanently lose body parts or are badly scarred. I can't see a kid with the habit of striking people with this all over the place as having much of a career at Hogwarts. He would be expelled before he could develop it as an infamous specialty.
Now, maybe it becomes his specialty once he joins the Death Eaters and the Order of the Phoenix know this because they make it a business to know their enemies' strengths? Hmmm, but Sirius was an involved member of the Order prior to his imprisonment, but he isn't even aware of Snape's stint as a Death Eater. Similarly, if Snape was so famous for this spell as a budding Death Eater, why isn't McGonagall (an Order member) alarmed that the spell has been used by one Hogwarts student against another? She would have known that it is Snape's calling card and being as scrappy as she is, questions would have been raised.
Now, I personally feel that the nature of Sectumsempra illustrates Snape's Dark leanings, and he probably does become a bit of an expert with it. However, Lupin's comment just seemed awkward to me from the moment I first read it.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 13, 2008 8:56 am (#231 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 9:57 am
Dryleaves, sorry to hear that you had to grow up with that experience. But you and your friends probably never went out of your way to sneak around spying on the people who were hassling you, did you? I admit that I might be stretching James's words "because he exists" a bit to interpret his annoyance at Snape always sneaking around spying on them, but I do think that a big part of the reason James says this is because he knows that Snape has the hots for Lily as well.
Wynnleaf, yes in the worst memory James is definitely the instigator/aggressor. But that is only one incident. Clearly there were others. Regardless of anything Dumbledore made him promise, I would think that Snape would still have told his "best friend" all about what happened, particularly as it serves his interest to dissuade Lily from her obviously growing interest in James. I disagree that "she doesn't want to hear" Snape's side. It is Snape who gives up the opportunity to tell her what really happened - or at least his version of it.
I think Mrs Brisbee is quite right in the whole "cart before the horse" set up, and in thinking that nothing much ever happened between Snape and James until after the worst memory. Snape says, "What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?" not, "What about the stuff Potter and his mates did (or do) to me?" as an argument for whose friends have the worst behavior.
Also, Snape clearly did not seem to feel remotely threatened, and seems to have been perfectly comfortable sitting relatively close to the Marauders after the OWL exam. Yes, he was focused on the exam questions. But surely if they attacked him on a regular basis, Snape would have been far more wary and would have made sure that he was in no immediate danger before settling down to go over his exam.
2. Sectumsempra is for attacks (no evidence). - Wynnleaf
Wow, really? I'm sure Draco Malfoy would strongly disagree with you on that point, as would George Weasley. McGonagall thinks Harry was lucky not to have been expelled for using it. Expulsion doesn't seem a very likely consequence for a "defensive" spell.
Pesky, you bring up some interesting points about the Sectumsempra, though. I would say that during his school days Snape may not have used as powerful a version of it, as we saw in the worst memory. Or because he knew the spell, had invented it, he could easily control the "level of damage" that the spell inflicted. The Marauders don't seem to be the tattling type, so even if Snape used it on them, they probably wouldn't have said anything. Even in Harry's time, "Madame Pomfrey never asks too many questions."
Julia H. - Aug 13, 2008 9:49 am (#232 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 11:03 am
Clearly there were others. Regardless of anything Dumbledore made him promise, I would think that Snape would still have told his "best friend" all about what happened, particularly as it serves his interest to dissuade Lily from her obviously growing interest in James. Quinn
It seems Snape keeps every one of his promises in the books. I see no reson to suppose that his promise to keep Lupin's secret would not have been kept for the same reason: he promised.
McGonagall thinks Harry was lucky not to have been expelled for using it. Expulsion doesn't seem a very likely consequence for a "defensive" spell.
This is exactly the reason why I think Snape cannot have used it. Or if he did use a milder version, which caused a less serious cut, something that could be healed, was it still the same kind of (dark) magic or something of a more "defensive" nature? And why could he not use it defensively? Remember, Harry too, used Sectumsempra in a duel which had been started by Malfoy.
Snape getting himself in trouble in the prank: Harry was likewise getting himself in trouble in the midnight duel scene and in HBP on the train. Yet, I doubt anybody thinks he would have deserved to die in either case or that anybody would have been justified to kill him. As for the argument that had Snape died, nobody would have known that it was Sirius's fault, I agree with Mona that everybody would have known Lupin's part and his education would have been over. DD would likely have been blamed as well. But there is more to that: Neither Sirius, nor James could have been sure of how Snape would die. If he had not died immediately of his injuries, more of the truth could have come out. Also, if Snape had "simply" been turned into a werewolf, Sirius's part in the prank would have become known.
About the cart and the horse: the book is not with me right now but I remember in the Worst Memory Scene, James shouts at Snape and there is something about Snape's reaction being as swift as if he had expected the attack. It seems to be indicated that though he was not really expecting an attack just then but as soon as he heard James's voice, it was clear to him he was going to be attacked. That does sound a lot to me as if he had been attacked before. Not even Sirius and Lupin say what Harry saw in the Pensieve was something unique and was Snape's fault (I am sure they would gladly tell Harry that if that was what they thought - Harry is even wishing to hear something that would justify the attack...) Lily also accuses James (in the Worst Memory Scene) of being a bully in general, attacking people just because he could. Furthermore we know James tried to trip Snape on the train. That was their first interaction. Tripping someone is agression. So I don't think at all that we are meant to think that the bullying started as a kind of "just punishment" for Snape by the "good guys" or that we are meant to think that Snape did anything that could be a just or noble reason for a gang of attackers to disarm and immobilize and then torture and humiliate him. Nor do I think that this behaviour is something that was rightly tolerated by the school.
The fact is that we get evidence for James being a bully and starting attacks on Snape, while we never see Snape attacking anyone. Of course, it is possible to explain James's motivations as something more noble than just what meets the eye even without canon evidence as long as canon is not against it. But the same is true of Snape. (Recently by accident I have seen a fanfic version of POA on the internet, written from Snape's point of view and I read the part that was about the Shrieking Shack incident and afterwards. From Snape's point of view, it turned out that the teenage Snape had actually lost his trust in DD and in justice after the prank for a long time - is it not possible? It was also described how Snape had a terrible headache the night and the morning after the incident - remember the three instances of Expelliarmus and then all those bumps in the tunnel, thanks to Sirius? - and this was part of the reason why (in certain circumstances further discussed) he let it, accidentally, slip that Lupin was a werewolf.) So we can find out-of-book motivations for both James and Snape. What is in the books, however, supports James's bullying behaviour and not Snape's.
Dryleaves - Aug 13, 2008 10:06 am (#233 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 11:18 am
Oh Quinn, you don't have to feel sorry for me, but thanks anyway! But I still feel this line says something important about bullying and I don't think we have to reinterpret the worst memory scene completely after DH, even if I agree that it gets more dimensions. I also think this attitude of the Marauders towards Snape is shown in other situations as well, for example in the Hogwarts Express scene and in some comments from Sirius. I agree that the relationship between them, especially between Snape and James, is more complicated than that, but I don't think that the primary reason for the Marauders' behaviour towards Snape is Snape's own actions. And I don't think that they are ever completely equal.
I too have a problem with Sectumsempra. If Snape had used it fully at school I am sure it would have been noticed. I am not sure that I would call it a defensive spell, but it makes me think of those guys who carry a knife (or gun) and say that they do so in order to be able to defend themselves. I think many of them don't intend to use the knife other than for showing it or threatening others with it, but of course some of them end up injuring or killing someone. In this case Sectumsempra ought to be rather useless to Snape, because as it is a spell he would have to use it in order to show it. And if he showed it for real he would be expelled. The controlled level of damage is an option, but then some people might think after a while that the spell was weak and that it could do no more harm than was shown and it would appear less frightening. A knife is at least a knife. But maybe the controlled damage was enough. I don't think it makes sense that Snape would have been known to have used it as a DE, because it wouldn't be a good thing if he was an agent.
I agree that Sectumsempra illustrates Snape's fascination for Dark magic and it also reveals an ambivalence in him, because he remains rather proud of having invented it even later in life when he has other values. (And no, I don't think this pride is a proof that he has not changed at all.)It is his baby. But it is a dark spell and when he tries to use it for a "good" purpose it goes wrong with all the logic of tragic irony.
Evil me is just as fond of tragic irony as of sarcasm (at least in literature, that is ) but I think that even if Snape often is responsible for his own misery nobody deserves that amount of tragic irony in their life. (Not even fictitious characters...)
ETA: I hope it didn't look as if I think it is allright to carry around a knife to threaten people with it. I don't!
And yes, you may be right, Julia.
Julia H. - Aug 13, 2008 10:15 am (#234 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 11:16 am
Actually, if Snape had used Sectumsempra to just cut up the meat or the vegetable on James's plate saying "I could do the same to you", he probably would not have been expelled and yet he would have demonstrated that he had a powerful weapon. I am not saying this is what happened but I do think he could have found ways to show what he could do and perhaps would do if attacked again (after the Worst Memory Scene?) without actually harming someone. But then again I don't think the Marauders would have been intimidated very easily and they may have guessed that Snape would not go that far.
Evil me is just as fond of tragic irony as of sarcasm (at least in literature, that is ) but I think that even if Snape often is responsible for his own misery nobody deserves that amount of tragic irony in their life. (Not even fictitious characters...) Dryleaves
I agree.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2008 10:22 am (#235 of 2988)
Furthermore we know James tried to trip Snape on the train. That was their first interaction.-- Julia H.
But then, we get four long years of quiet. There is simply no evidence that between deciding they hate each other on the train because of their House affiliations-- regardless of the trip-- that James was doing anything to Snape for any reason. In fact, all evidence from what the characters say and do supports the bullying behavior starting in the fifth year. Turning a trip on the train to relentless bullying of Snape year in and year out until the poor boy snapped under the pressure is a stretch to me that has no basis.
And again, the Worst memory happens after the Prank. It may not be the first time the Marauders have attacked Snape after the Prank. We don't actually have a timeline for fifth year so we would know how much time has past between the two events. But it is quite true that we don't see them attacking Snape before the Prank. So we have, in the fifth year, Snape sneaking around after them, Snape's fear that James fancies Lily, the Prank, and then bullying.
I agree that James is a bully in his fifth year (and so do the characters in the book--but no support for earlier bullying), but I'm not sure how that proves that Snape is nothing more than an innocent victim who has been set upon from the second he met James on the train, attacked year after year. I hear this a lot. I'd like evidence. Something more than them trading insults and James trying to trip him on the Hogwarts Express years ago in an isolated incident.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 13, 2008 11:16 am (#236 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 12:17 pm
Agreed, Mrs Brisbee. Surely Snape would have included at least one incident from their younger days in his "Prince's Memories" if there had been one to show. I think it makes a lot of sense that the Marauders really only started in on Snape once they learned that Snape a) suspected Lupin and was doing everything he could to expose him and b) had been trying to catch them at their nighttime antics.
The fact that Snape even knew about this at all is confusing to me. First, because James had the Cloak. Then there were the secret passages. In other words, the only way Snape could have known the Marauders were sneaking out is by actually following them somehow. I just don't get that part.
But remember a couple years ago at the World Cup final when Zinadine Zidane headbutted Marco Materrazzi? Even if you don't follow soccer/football, most people at least saw the video of Materrazzi throwing himself to the turf as if Zizou had come at him with a cannon. At the time, Zizou was sent off (ejected) and everyone thought he was such a horrible jerk and a "bully". But in reality, Materrazzi had been taunting Zidane through the whole game. This wasn't just your usual "trash talk" between competitors. Materrazzi was attacking Zidane personally, making fun of Zidane's North African heritage, saying things about his mother and sister, and so on.
It was all part of Materrazzi's strategy. Even the most even-tempered individual can only take so much of that sort of constant badgering. But Zizou was known for his volatile temper and Materrazzi played his last good nerve like a harp.
What does this have to do with Snape? Well, we Snape doing the very same thing to Sirius in OP. Snape taunts Sirius, deliberately presses all Sirius's emotional buttons, until Sirius pulls out his wand. If this is how Snape acts toward Sirius after 20 years have passed, how hard is it to imagine what Snape was like toward Sirius and/or James at school? I have no doubt that, even though Snape may not have always been the first to actually draw his wand, that neither was he was just an innocent bystander, always acting solely on the defense as James or Sirius came along and started flinging spells at him, either. And that's what I mean when I say Snape was a willing participant.
Orion - Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am (#237 of 2988)
Quinn, about Zidane: Great parallel, because Zidane wasn't the innocent victim who could "only take so much of that sort of constant badgering", the poor dear - no! Because this incident showed exactly that: That he didn't choose to retaliate with words or simply by ignoring Materazzi, but that he chose to react violently. And it's an alarming development in society- whether you look at parents, judges or the media - that violent reactions are looked upon with a hearty chuckle and even admiration, just like Vernon does regarding Dudley. Violence as typically male behaviour - "well you must understand, they can't help it".
Can't they? Are they thick?
Violence is simply not an option in a civilised society, and children should be taught just that, regardless of their gender. And I hate it if people say that it's the victims' own fault if they are bullied.
And in OOP Sirius starts the taunting, not Snape. There!
Quinn Crockett - Aug 13, 2008 12:06 pm (#238 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 1:47 pm
Thanks, Orion. I do very much agree with you about violent tendencies.
But actually, I was trying convey that Zidane did ignore Materrazzi, had been ignoring him for over an hour, in fact. Even in the footage that was shown over and over, Zidane is actually walking away from Materrazzi. He is trying to ignore Materrazzi. But it is Materrazzi who keeps egging Zidane on - and you can see this in the video - knowing that eventually Zidane will crack and that his temper will get the better of him.
I'm not saying Zizou was right, not at all. He deserved his red card. The man was known for his temper, and I doubt he just stood there quietly up to the point where he lashes out. But everyone - EVERYONE - has their breaking point. Materrazzi played Zizou on that. Snape played Sirius.
EDIT: In OP ch. 24, Harry walks into the kitchen to find Sirius and Snape already glaring at each other. So we really don't know who actually started it. However, what we are able to see, once Harry arrives on the scene, is that first Sirius objects to Snape's tone with Harry. Personally, I think this is valid, but it doesn't really matter.
Then Snape expresses annoyance that Sirius is present during his meeting with Harry. He is described as having "an ugly flush". This is pretty unprofessional. As Harry's legal guardian, even Snape must admit that Sirius has every right to be present during any meetings Harry might have with an instructor. But he uses the opportunity to jab at Sirius:
"But by all means stay, Black, I know you like to feel... involved."
"What's that supposed to mean?" said Sirius, letting his chair fall back onto all for legs with a loud bang.
"Merely that I am sure you must feel - ah - frustrated by the fact that you can do nothing useful," Snape laid a delicate stress on the word "for the Order."(Jab)
It was Sirius's turn to flush. Snape's lip curled in triumph as he turned to Harry....
Sirius asks Snape (albeit "aggressively") why he's teaching Harry instead of Dumbledore. Snape makes a snide remark that Dumbledore has the privilege of assigning "less enjoyable tasks". He further instructs Harry that if anyone asks he's supposed to tell them Snape is tutoring him in Remedial Potions, obviously another jab. He turns to leave, but Sirius calls him back.
Snape: "I am in rather a hurry, Black... unlike you, I do not have unlimited leisure time..."(Jab) At this point Harry notices that Snape "had balled his fist in the pocket of his cloak over what Harry was sure was the handle of his wand". Sirius does threaten Snape that, "You'll have me to answer to" if he hears that Snape has been using the Occlumency lessons as a way to harass Harry. (Again, I think this is quite reasonable, especially after Snape's last remark to Harry - and any parent would do the same, with the history these two men share and under the circumstances of Sirius knowing how Snape treats Harry.).
Snape responds to this by insulting James, then calls Sirius a coward, first merely openly alluding to it, then, when Sirius asks him directly, "Are you calling me a coward?" Snape answers, "Why, yes, I suppose I am."
Sirius is definitely hot-headed, but he doesn't raise his wand to Snape until Snape calls him a coward, Snape's own particular hot button as well. Snape calculates his every word to Sirius, and has his wand at the ready long before Sirius does.
PeskyPixie - Aug 13, 2008 3:43 pm (#239 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 4:46 pm
In the Worst memory scene it says that Snape reacts to Sirius/James as if he is expecting an attack. This made me assume that by this point several scuffles have already occurred.
Anyhow, I figured that the Snape vs. Marauders enmity from the moment they meet was a given, but I guess it can be interpreted differently ... it just isn't as interesting in this way though, and it makes the Marauders look worse, IMO. If the feud had begun earlier at least we could say that James and Sirius had gotten into bad habits as children which carry into their teens but they overcome by the time they come of age. If the Prank is the moment their fights really start then the Marauders are getting more immature with age, not less.
EDIT: I had assumed that in the kitchen of 12GP Snape and Sirius were giving one another the cold silent treatment, but you're right, Harry may have entered during the intermission of an argument in progress. Honestly, Severus and Sirius are beyond immature in this scene (you'd expect at least one to act like an adult in front of Harry), but I must admit that it makes for some delicious reading!
wynnleaf - Aug 13, 2008 7:21 pm (#240 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 8:26 pm
Did James and the Marauders attack Snape prior to the Prank?
Some say there's no evidence they did.
I agree that no specific examples are given of attacks prior to the Prank, but on the other hand, general comments about attacks aren't specifically said to be after the Prank.
So what evidence is there that James and Co. were attacking Snape, or others as well, prior to the Prank?
1. HBP detention files mentioning attacks on others. Lily commenting on James "bullying", the fear that other students show when the Marauders are about to start a confrontation. These indicate that the Marauders attacked others as well, and therefore the idea that they only started attacking Snape because he was sneaking around trying to get them expelled doesn't fit, because they also attacked others who, presumably, weren't also trying to get them expelled. In other words, if it didn't take people sneaking around trying to dig up dirt on them to cause them attack people, why wait for that with Snape, especially when Lupin and Sirius say that Snape was a special case with James?
2. Why would Snape be trying to get Lupin expelled, if his only problem was with James and their rivalry over Lily? Sirius and Lupin said Snape was trying to get all of them expelled, but that makes little sense if the rest of the Marauders weren't actively doing something to Snape. After all, he wasn't rivals over Lily with all of them.
3. Immediately after the Prank, Lily comments to Snape about his friends Mulciber and Avery and their nasty Dark jokes. He uses the Marauders as a counter argument. How could he use them as any sort of comparison if all they had going was a verbal sparring match with Lily as the object of a rivalry? Lily's big comment about what makes the Marauders different from Mulciber and Avery is that "they don't use Dark Magic, though." Why couldn't she have just said, "at least they don't hurt anyone," or "at least they don't attack people" or "at least they don't pull cruel tormenting jokes on people." No, the big difference she came up with was that they didn't do Dark Magic.
4. Last, JKR has James use overt physical aggression on the train, in his first meeting with Snape. Sure it's just trying to trip Snape. But my point is that she shows James using a physical act against Snape when he's eleven years old and only just met Snape. I think that it is more likely that JKR is signaling that this is the beginning of James aggression to Snape, rather than that we're to believe that this was an isolated incident and James was never again physically aggressive to Snape until Snape drove him to it by trying to get he and his friends expelled.
I'm not sure what the purpose of this argument actually is. Is it to say that Snape's to blame for the bullying of the Marauders because they were only doing it because of his sneaking around? Hmm. You know, Draco wasn't really doing much bad other than arrogant jerk kinds of comments, yet Harry was sneaking around trying to dig up dirt on him. And Harry and Co. even attacked Draco after GOF, hexing them into unconsciousness for nothing but bad comments. So does this make Draco's later actions justified?? Was it okay just because Harry had a history of sneaking around trying to find out bad things about Draco?
On Sectumsempra. The recent discussion started because Quinn said that one piece of evidence that Snape was instigating attacks while at Hogwarts was that Snape invented Sectumsempra, which Quinn said was specifically for attacks.
Sure, Sectumsempra can be used offensively. I never meant to imply that it couldn't. And it can be used defensively as Harry tried to do. But neither gives us info on why Snape invented it - whether for defense or offense against enemies. And therefore it is no evidence that Snape instigated attacks on the Marauders while at school.
And as many have pointed out, the use of a full-fledged Sectumsempra at school couldn't fail to go unnoticed by teachers and Dumbledore. If he used it repeatedly, it would clearly have gotten Snape expelled.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2008 7:46 pm (#241 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 9:10 pm
I'm not sure what the purpose of this argument actually is.-- wynnleaf
Simply that this is the Snape thread, and as such what motivates Snape to do Snapey things is a topic of discussion. If someone holds forth a thesis that X happened, and therefore it motivated Snape to do Z, then it is helpful if X can be supported with canon references. If it cannot, then there is a question of if X is really the only or best explanation of what is going on. If there is other evidence that supports a thesis Y, then there is a viable alternative that we can weigh as we try to decide why Snape does the things he does.
That's the purpose of my argument, anyway.
Edit: I'm kind of too tired to do up a Thesis Y, but I suppose I should address wynnleaf's points (actually, I should be in bed sleeping, but...).
1. HBP detention files mentioning attacks on others. Lily commenting on James "bullying", the fear that other students show when the Marauders are about to start a confrontation. These indicate that the Marauders attacked others as well, and therefore the idea that they only started attacking Snape because he was sneaking around trying to get them expelled doesn't fit, because they also attacked others who, presumably, weren't also trying to get them expelled. In other words, if it didn't take people sneaking around trying to dig up dirt on them to cause them attack people, why wait for that with Snape, especially when Lupin and Sirius say that Snape was a special case with James?
Not what I said. I said they did engage in bullying in their fifth year. Sirius and Lupin say as much. The boxes are from which year? They don't support a thesis that James took an interest in bullying Snape prior to the prank, even if you could show that they were from before the prank. Snape's name doesn't appear as a victim of the Marauders anywhere within them. So the boxes don't prove anything we didn't already know, and add no additional information.
Also, Lily comments that James is as bad as Snape. Take that how you will.
2. Why would Snape be trying to get Lupin expelled, if his only problem was with James and their rivalry over Lily? Sirius and Lupin said Snape was trying to get all of them expelled, but that makes little sense if the rest of the Marauders weren't actively doing something to Snape. After all, he wasn't rivals over Lily with all of them.
Because James was the leader and the Marauders were all house mates to Lily? Snape wants them to look bad, and a werewolf looks pretty bad.
3. Immediately after the Prank, Lily comments to Snape about his friends Mulciber and Avery and their nasty Dark jokes. He uses the Marauders as a counter argument. How could he use them as any sort of comparison if all they had going was a verbal sparring match with Lily as the object of a rivalry? Lily's big comment about what makes the Marauders different from Mulciber and Avery is that "they don't use Dark Magic, though." Why couldn't she have just said, "at least they don't hurt anyone," or "at least they don't attack people" or "at least they don't pull cruel tormenting jokes on people." No, the big difference she came up with was that they didn't do Dark Magic.
The argument here seems to be that if the Marauders are bullies, then Snape is automatically one of their victims. But there is zero evidence that they have done anything to Snape prior to the Prank.
4. Last, JKR has James use overt physical aggression on the train, in his first meeting with Snape. Sure it's just trying to trip Snape. But my point is that she shows James using a physical act against Snape when he's eleven years old and only just met Snape. I think that it is more likely that JKR is signaling that this is the beginning of James aggression to Snape, rather than that we're to believe that this was an isolated incident and James was never again physically aggressive to Snape until Snape drove him to it by trying to get he and his friends expelled.
Yet, it is an isolated incident. Four years of nothing, until after the Prank. The detention boxes don't show Snape to be a special victim of the Marauders, or any kind of victim of the Marauders. What is lacking is evidence.
wynnleaf - Aug 13, 2008 7:59 pm (#242 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 9:06 pm
I can't see any evidence to support the notion that James did not initiate attacks against Snape until after the Prank. Because we know that James did initiate physical aggression toward Snape at their first meeting, and because we know that James was physically aggressive toward Snape in the 5th year and following, then if one is going to defend the idea that James only started attacking Snape after the Prank, I think the burden of literary proof, or evidence, needs to be to show that James didn't attack Snape in between 1st and 5th years, rather than to assume that he didn't because we have no explicit examples or comments specifically relating to those years.
I mean, the way this particular idea is being posed, it seems to me that if JKR had shown James being physically aggressive toward Snape in year two, the next argument would have been "well, how do we knowhe was aggressive toward him in years 3 and 4?" I mean, what exactly was JKR supposed to do to make it clear? She shows aggression right at the start, and then again in year 5. She shows other students somewhat fearful of the Marauder confrontations, James and Sirius getting detentions for hexing others, Lily speaking of him as a bully, Snape walking along reading over an exam and expecting to be attacked, and we're supposed to assume that James and friends were just nice guys who never hurt anyone until that terrible Snape, for some inexplicable reason, started trying to get not just James, but all James' friends expelled, all because JKR didn't show us even more examples or evidence of the Marauder aggression?
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2008 8:21 pm (#243 of 2988)
Er, how much lack of evidence needs to be collected before something counts as not happened?
Quinn Crockett - Aug 13, 2008 8:39 pm (#244 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 10:04 pm
I think the burden of literary proof, or evidence, needs to be to show that James didn't attack Snape in between 1st and 5th years, rather than to assume that he didn't because we have no explicit examples or comments specifically relating to those years. - I'm sorry, but this makes me laugh Because essentially, Wynnleaf, you're demanding evidence that there is no evidence.
we're supposed to assume that James and friends were just nice guys who never hurt anyone until that terrible Snape, for some inexplicable reason, started trying to get not just James, but all James' friends expelled - That's definitely the battle you seem to be fighting, here, Wynnleaf. But not one person is saying that.
I also find the word "attacked" to be used rather liberally. Personally, I find someone deliberately pushing someone else's emotional hot buttons to be just as much of an "attack" as waving a wand at them.
mona amon - Aug 13, 2008 11:32 pm (#245 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 12:42 am
it's okay to Sectumsempra one's classmates? Interesting ... (Solitaire)
The only instance that we see of Snape using Sectumsempra on his classmates is the small gash that he gave James when he was tormenting him in the Worst Memory, if it was Sectumsempra. I'm with Ginny when she condones Harry's use of Sectumsempra against Draco. If James was in the habit of attacking Snape along with his gang when Snape was alone, as we see in the Worst Memory, then I can't help feeling glad Snape had 'something good up his sleeve'.
I think the Worst Memory scene set us up to put the cart before the horse, until we got to DH and received more information. I know I assumed after OotP that Snape was picked on up to the Prank, and after that James straightened up. Now, after the information in DH, I don't think James bothered much with Snape before the Prank.(Mrs. Brisbee)
Mrs. Brisbee, what information did we get in DH to show that James bothered Snape only after the Prank? The only new information that we get is that James and Sirius started bullying Snape right from their first encounter with him on the Hogwarts Express. And I do not think that very clear example of bullying (calling someone Snivellus and tripping them) was put there at random. It was to show us that James and Sirius were picking on him from day one.
Lupin tells Harry that "James and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other, it was just one of those things." He and Sirius never try to claim that the bullying was in retaliation for Snape sneaking around trying to get them expelled, even though, as Wynnleaf has pointed out several times, now was the time to mention it if it was the case, since Harry's opinion of James was at such a low.
Er, how much lack of evidence needs to be collected before something counts as not happened?
LOL, reminds me of that argument that Hermione and Xeno were having about the existence of the resurrection stone.
Hermione: Well, how can that be real?
Xeno: Prove that it is not!
Hermione: But that's completely ridiculous! How can I possibly prove it doesn't exist? Do you expect me to get hold of- of all the pebbles in the world and, and test them? I mean you could claim that anything is real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody's proved that it doesn't exist!
Xeno: Yes, you could. I'm glad to see you are opening your mind a little.
It's not a defensive spell, it's meant specifically for attack. (Quinn)
I feel it's a weapon- an invisible sword. It can be used for attack. It can be used for defense. When Harry uses it against Draco, he uses it to attack. When he uses it against the inferi in the cave, he's attempting to defend himself.
I feel he invented the spell to feel safer from his enemies, the way a bullied muggle child sometimes ends up carrying a knife or gun to school. It is a bad thing, but it's a lot better to look into the reasons why the kid resorted to this extreme measure than to waste our breath exclaiming about how bad the kid is. (I'm not saying anyone here is doing this, BTW) I'm sure the bullies are basically honest, upright kids who would never dream of shooting or knifing anyone. Yet this is the point to which their thoughtless behaviour leads.
Surely Snape would have included at least one incident from their younger days in his "Prince's Memories" if there had been one to show. (Quinn)
Let's remember that Snape at this point was not trying to show Harry what a jerk he thought his dad was. He was showing Harry memories that demonstrated that he was Dumbledore's man, and that Harry was a Horcrux.
Mercy! But who knows? Maybe that's how the Cruciatus Curse was invented - by someone who was bullied at school.
Quinn, I suppose you mean this ironically, but I think it's perfectly possible that the Cruciatus Curse was invented by someone who was bullied at school.
-----------
Ha, Quinn, I too was reminded of an incident in the HP books after seeing Zizou headbutt Materrazzi, but I was thinking of the incident in OOTP where George and Harry get a 'lifetime' ban from quidditch after attacking Malfoy for insulting their mothers. Almost an exact parallel, I think.
Due to lack of time I only skimmed through all the recent posts before posting this, I'll come back to read them properly later. Sorry if I've repeated anyone else's ideas.
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 1:17 am (#246 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 2:32 am
I'm sorry, but this makes me laugh Because essentially, Wynnleaf, you're demanding evidence that there is no evidence. (Quinn)
No, that's not what I'm doing. JKR gave clear evidence that James and friends bullied later - 5th year forward. Then she gave us the scene in DH where James and Snape meet for the first time and James is starting off their acquaintanceship with bullying. This isn't a court of law where real people are innocent until proven guilty. This is a book series where the author tries to show within a few scenes a picture of a character, what they're like, the kinds of ways they act, etc. JKR shows us James-as-bully at age 11 (arrogant and physically aggressive) and shows us James-as-bully at age 15. You want to believe that James between those times was not a bully, just because JKR didn't give us scenes about him in between those times. But since she has only shown us scenes of youthful James-as-bully, I think that we are to assume that his behavior at age 11 continued in a steady progression until his behavior at age 15 - unless there is evidence to show that his behavior at age 11 was an isolated incident, that his behavior at age 15 was new for him, or his behavior in between was in fact not the same as his behavior during the scenes at either end.
One might just as easily say on a more extreme example that even though we learn that Mulciber and Avery were into Dark Magic at age 15 and were known Death Eaters several years later, that because there's no scenes revealing info of them at age 16 and 17, we can assume that they were sweet and loving guys who'd never hurt a flea during the intervening years.
Or what about Harry. Gosh we don't know what Harry was really like before the stories open. Maybe if someone developed an opinion that prior to the start of the books, Harry was an awful, nasty brat who actually caused the Dursleys to hate him, that would explain the Dursley's attitude (hey, they were sending gifts when he was a baby, right?), and therefore it's just as valid to assume that Harry was a horror as a young child as to assume he was a nice kid. After all, while he may have been a nice kid at age 10, the Dursleys did hate him after all. And we aren't actually shown Harry being a nice kid at age 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. So isn't it just as valid a theory that Harry was an awful kid before?
No, it's not. A person might think that of course. But JKR did not set up a literary pattern that shows Harry during the years we don't know him was any different than the kid we meet at age 11.
Ditto James. We see him at age 11 being an arrogant little bully. Even if a person wouldn't call it bullying (I do), it's at least James-as-physically-aggressive toward Snape. At age 15 or so, he's a bigger arrogant bully. The literary points are set up. If he was a nice, sweet kid in between, there needs to be some evidence that the scenes JKR did show us of James at ages 11 and 15 weren't the "norm" for James in between.
mona amon - Aug 14, 2008 1:46 am (#247 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 2:47 am
A very well-reasoned argument, Wynnleaf!
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 2:01 am (#248 of 2988)
Thanks mona amon.
Of course, this reasoning is most especially true for more minor characters. The less time that JKR spends giving in-depth character development, the more the little bits she gives us are important to understand the character.
So Snape, like other characters with lots of on-page scenes, is far more 3-dimensional and his character is not "painted with a broad brush". When an author uses a character in just a few scenes, a good author is usually trying to give us the gist of that character within the scenes where we actually meet the character. Therefore those few scenes are very important to understanding the character. Good literary analysis would not assume that the few scenes that the author gave us where we actually see the character in action are unusual for the character and don't reveal what the character is really like, unless there was actual evidence that those scenes weren't typical of the character.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 14, 2008 4:10 am (#249 of 2988)
Okay, let me see if I can compile enough Lack Of Evidence to prove my case .
DH, Ch 33, "The Princes Tale":
James and Sirius imitated her lofty voice; James tried to trip Snape as he passed.
Okay, here is the attempted trip. Onward! Segue to Sorting Hat, segue from there right to fifth year.
"What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?" demanded Snape. His color rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.
"What's Potter got to do with anything?" said Lily.
"They sneak out at night. There's something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?"
So, there's the first bit of Lack Of Evidence. Lily doesn't think Potter is relevant, and Snape doesn't cite himself being bullied as a reason she should be concerned about Potter. And if they were bullying Snape, she should know about it anyway. But why is Snape obsessed with Potter?
:"He's ill", said Lily. "They say he's ill."
"Every month at the full moon?"
"I know your theory," said, and she sounded cold. "Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care where they are going at night?"
If Snape was being tormented by Potter, Lily wouldn't be asking that question. Snape replies:
"I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think."
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
So right there Snape gives us his motive for his obsession with the Marauders, and particularly James: Lily.
And, as I feared, my daughter is bored and demands attention. I'll finish this when I get time.
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 4:37 am (#250 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 5:58 am
This is immediately after the Prank. Snape is bringing up Lupin specifically because he's focused on that. He knows that Lupin is a werewolf, but can't tell Lily the truth. Yet he wants her to see it for herself. That's why he's focused on that. And remember, we may have a better attitude about a character being a werewolf because we mostly all like Lupin. But in the Wizarding World, werewolves were generally considered terribly dangerous and they are Dark creatures. Snape bringing up Lupin is, in his opinion, bringing up one of the worst pieces of info about the Marauders, because it shows that one actually is Dark and deadly (as opposed to doing Dark Magic) and that the rest of the Marauders willingly hang out with a Dark creature. Further, Snape believes that the Marauders have just tried to kill him, although he can't tell Lily his beliefs. That kind of pales in comparison to any earlier attacks, even if they were 4 to 1.
Neither Snape nor Lily need to review what they already both know about James. Whatever it is they both know about James, it kind of goes without saying. The only thing Snape really knows that Lily does not is that Lupin is a werewolf.
But this is a bit similar to Hermione and Ron thinking Harry is going overboard about his following Draco. They know that Draco is a jerk, arrogant, and a bully, but they still think Harry is obsessed with Draco. And they're a lot nicer about it than Lily. Their thinking Harry is obsessed and going too far in his suspicions of Draco does not mean they have no clue about what Draco is really like or what he's done in the past.
I note that you left out Lily's later comment where she basically defends the Marauders (prior to mentioning James saving Snape's life) with "they don't do Dark Magic though" as though that's about the best she can say for them other than James' recent "saving" of Snape, for which Lily doesn't actually know the details.
Edited Aug 13, 2008 1:23 am
Look, I'm not saying that James and/or Sirius didn't bully Snape. What I'm saying is that Snape seems to have been a very willing participant in that relationship. I kind of think that's what James means when he says, "It's more that he exists". (Quinn)
I think James means exactly what he is saying. "It's more that he exists." I was being bullied in school and have later had friends who had the same experience and the only reasons they can find for their being bullied are things like "I had strange clothes", "I was shy", " it was because of my hair", "just because I existed". None of us participated willingly whether we fought back or tried to escape. I think reasons like these are the only ones the bully can come up with as well. And this is the only reason Harry can find for Snape bullying him, for example, that Snape hates him because he exists. (From a more distant perspective there are of course other explanations for bullying, such as insecurity and group dynamics, etc. )
So when I read this line I thought JKR wanted to say something about bullying. The whole situation in the worst memory scene is a classic bullying situation where you have a victim, a bully and his second, someone who is eager to watch it all, and someone who does not really like it but turns a blind eye, and then the crowd. It is about bullying, not about fighting or rivalry or revenge, etc.
wynnleaf - Aug 13, 2008 2:22 am (#227 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 3:26 am
Snape would had to have attacked James behind Lily's back as well - which he must have done to elicit the remark, "Snape never missed an opportunity to hex James". (Quinn)
I see I think. You're thinking that Snape "never missing the opportunity" means that Sirius and Lupin were referring to Snape instigating attacks. But that's not necessarily so. In the Worst Memory scene, James and Sirius act as though Snape doesn't have the right to even fight back and as though he has to be kind of "punished" for his defensive actions - such as scourgifying his mouth because he uses bad language when they torment him. They seemed to have the attitude, during that attack, that Snape retaliating was an offensive action.
So why did he never tell Lily what really happened? (Quinn)
Because first, DD had made Snape promise to tell no one what occurred, so Snape may have felt constrained about giving her more information. And also, in her conversation with Snape, Lily seems to have already made up her mind and didn't seem to want him to elaborate any more on the incident. She doesn't appear to want to hear Snape's side of events.
Well, he could hardly be physically aggressive to Harry when he'd sworn his very life to protect the boy, now could he? (Quinn)
Yes, but that's only your assumption, and therefore doesn't make any evidence that Snape was physically aggressive in school. Basically what you're saying is (in my words) that because you assume Snape would have been physically aggressive to Harry given the opportunity, he must therefore have been physically aggressive toward others. That is fallacious reasoning. We can all assume whatever we please, but to then use an assumption that isn't canon supported as evidence for a point about something else entirely isn't really evidence at all.
It's not a defensive spell, it's meant specifically for attack. (Quinn)
Another assumption, because Snape only said it was "for enemies". Nothing says it's an attack spell or "specifically for attack". Once again, your making an assumption unsubstantiated by the books and then using it as evidence to support another point. It's fine to assume that all on it's own, but your assumption doesn't make it evidence to support other things.
What I'm saying is that Snape seems to have been a very willing participant in that relationship. (Quinn)
I can certainly see why you say this, but it seems to be based not on the actual evidence in the books, but on a series of assumptions you make such as 1. Snape didn't want Lily to know about attacks he made on James (no evidence for this). 2. Sectumsempra is for attacks (no evidence). 3. Snape would have been physically aggressive to Harry is he could have been. Once again, no evidence.
My comments are much more closely based on what is actually stated in the books. 1. James actively wanted to keep his confrontations with Snape a secret from Lily and did. 2. The Marauders attacked Snape and others by ganging up and in a cowardly fashion of incapacitating the victim and then tormenting them. 3. James made the first aggressive move between the two (tripping on the train). 4. The only mention we have of Snape making what might be interpreted as offensive attacks on the Marauders is made by two of the former Marauders while they try to win back Harry's goodwill. 5. Snape said he was ganged up on by the Marauders and said (as an adult) that some tried to kill him. We know from canon that he therefore had ample reason in his own mind for creating defensive spells. 6. We know that Harry makes a correlation between what he sees in the Worst Memory and his own experiences with bullying. 7. We know that even during her criticisms of Snape that Lily never accuses him of bullying others or of attacking the Marauders. We actually see her ask James "what's he ever done to you?"
This is all hard canon evidence, not a series of assumptions.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2008 3:36 am (#228 of 2988)
I think the Worst Memory scene set us up to put the cart before the horse, until we got to DH and received more information. I know I assumed after OotP that Snape was picked on up to the Prank, and after that James straightened up. Now, after the information in DH, I don't think James bothered much with Snape before the Prank. He might have disliked him for the crowd and the Dark Arts that Snape was immersed in, but I see zero evidence that James went out of his way to target Snape specifically until after the Prank. I have to agree with Quinn and Steve that Snape spying on the Marauders and the Marauders bullying Snape has to do with some stupid attempt to impress Lily (I really feel sorry for the girl), and started in the fifth year.
Snape even tells us his big concern, that James fancies Lily, and he doesn't want her to like James back. There is no evidence at all before that point that the Marauders are bullying Snape at all. He went spying on the Marauders to find something prove to Lily that James wasn't actually that great, and it backfired (gotta love the irony). After that, James bullies Snape, because now Snape exists and annoys him and he stupidly thinks this will somehow impress Lily.
I really do think that the Worst Memory scene set up a string of assumptions that were shown to be otherwise in DH.
Solitaire - Aug 13, 2008 6:03 am (#229 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 7:12 am
I'm trying to think who had this opinion. So many people discussed this issue before DH came out that I can't even remember. All were suggesting Harry should defeat Voldy without using an AK ... which he did. But there were lengthy discussions on why it would be morally wrong, etc.
BTW, Harry used it without realizing what it was. Yes, this was stupid ... but stupid is different than vindictive or vengeful. Harry wouldn't even use an AK or stunning spell on the DEs chasing him out of Privet Drive in DH. I seriously doubt he'd have used Sectumsempra if he had known what it did. Snape knew what it did ... and he obviously used it often enough that Remus recognized it as his "specialty."
Solitaire
PeskyPixie - Aug 13, 2008 7:08 am (#230 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 8:25 am
I don't think the two were discussed together recently, Soli. I have read several posts expressing disappointment with Harry's use of the Cruciatus curse, but I don't think the same people gave Snape a pass on Sectumsempra.
I think JKR makes Lupin call Sectumsempra Snape's specialty because she was building up the 'Snape is a bad, bad boy' attitude before she stunned everyone with The Prince's Tale. Still, I don't feel this particular part of the story fits the world she has created.
See, there's no logic to Sectumsempra being a 'specialty' of Snape's at school because the nature of the spell is 'to cut' forever, meaning that if he went around hitting people with it, they'd bleed to death unless he sang them back to health. Likely, victims of this spell bleed to death or permanently lose body parts or are badly scarred. I can't see a kid with the habit of striking people with this all over the place as having much of a career at Hogwarts. He would be expelled before he could develop it as an infamous specialty.
Now, maybe it becomes his specialty once he joins the Death Eaters and the Order of the Phoenix know this because they make it a business to know their enemies' strengths? Hmmm, but Sirius was an involved member of the Order prior to his imprisonment, but he isn't even aware of Snape's stint as a Death Eater. Similarly, if Snape was so famous for this spell as a budding Death Eater, why isn't McGonagall (an Order member) alarmed that the spell has been used by one Hogwarts student against another? She would have known that it is Snape's calling card and being as scrappy as she is, questions would have been raised.
Now, I personally feel that the nature of Sectumsempra illustrates Snape's Dark leanings, and he probably does become a bit of an expert with it. However, Lupin's comment just seemed awkward to me from the moment I first read it.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 13, 2008 8:56 am (#231 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 9:57 am
Dryleaves, sorry to hear that you had to grow up with that experience. But you and your friends probably never went out of your way to sneak around spying on the people who were hassling you, did you? I admit that I might be stretching James's words "because he exists" a bit to interpret his annoyance at Snape always sneaking around spying on them, but I do think that a big part of the reason James says this is because he knows that Snape has the hots for Lily as well.
Wynnleaf, yes in the worst memory James is definitely the instigator/aggressor. But that is only one incident. Clearly there were others. Regardless of anything Dumbledore made him promise, I would think that Snape would still have told his "best friend" all about what happened, particularly as it serves his interest to dissuade Lily from her obviously growing interest in James. I disagree that "she doesn't want to hear" Snape's side. It is Snape who gives up the opportunity to tell her what really happened - or at least his version of it.
I think Mrs Brisbee is quite right in the whole "cart before the horse" set up, and in thinking that nothing much ever happened between Snape and James until after the worst memory. Snape says, "What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?" not, "What about the stuff Potter and his mates did (or do) to me?" as an argument for whose friends have the worst behavior.
Also, Snape clearly did not seem to feel remotely threatened, and seems to have been perfectly comfortable sitting relatively close to the Marauders after the OWL exam. Yes, he was focused on the exam questions. But surely if they attacked him on a regular basis, Snape would have been far more wary and would have made sure that he was in no immediate danger before settling down to go over his exam.
2. Sectumsempra is for attacks (no evidence). - Wynnleaf
Wow, really? I'm sure Draco Malfoy would strongly disagree with you on that point, as would George Weasley. McGonagall thinks Harry was lucky not to have been expelled for using it. Expulsion doesn't seem a very likely consequence for a "defensive" spell.
Pesky, you bring up some interesting points about the Sectumsempra, though. I would say that during his school days Snape may not have used as powerful a version of it, as we saw in the worst memory. Or because he knew the spell, had invented it, he could easily control the "level of damage" that the spell inflicted. The Marauders don't seem to be the tattling type, so even if Snape used it on them, they probably wouldn't have said anything. Even in Harry's time, "Madame Pomfrey never asks too many questions."
Julia H. - Aug 13, 2008 9:49 am (#232 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 11:03 am
Clearly there were others. Regardless of anything Dumbledore made him promise, I would think that Snape would still have told his "best friend" all about what happened, particularly as it serves his interest to dissuade Lily from her obviously growing interest in James. Quinn
It seems Snape keeps every one of his promises in the books. I see no reson to suppose that his promise to keep Lupin's secret would not have been kept for the same reason: he promised.
McGonagall thinks Harry was lucky not to have been expelled for using it. Expulsion doesn't seem a very likely consequence for a "defensive" spell.
This is exactly the reason why I think Snape cannot have used it. Or if he did use a milder version, which caused a less serious cut, something that could be healed, was it still the same kind of (dark) magic or something of a more "defensive" nature? And why could he not use it defensively? Remember, Harry too, used Sectumsempra in a duel which had been started by Malfoy.
Snape getting himself in trouble in the prank: Harry was likewise getting himself in trouble in the midnight duel scene and in HBP on the train. Yet, I doubt anybody thinks he would have deserved to die in either case or that anybody would have been justified to kill him. As for the argument that had Snape died, nobody would have known that it was Sirius's fault, I agree with Mona that everybody would have known Lupin's part and his education would have been over. DD would likely have been blamed as well. But there is more to that: Neither Sirius, nor James could have been sure of how Snape would die. If he had not died immediately of his injuries, more of the truth could have come out. Also, if Snape had "simply" been turned into a werewolf, Sirius's part in the prank would have become known.
About the cart and the horse: the book is not with me right now but I remember in the Worst Memory Scene, James shouts at Snape and there is something about Snape's reaction being as swift as if he had expected the attack. It seems to be indicated that though he was not really expecting an attack just then but as soon as he heard James's voice, it was clear to him he was going to be attacked. That does sound a lot to me as if he had been attacked before. Not even Sirius and Lupin say what Harry saw in the Pensieve was something unique and was Snape's fault (I am sure they would gladly tell Harry that if that was what they thought - Harry is even wishing to hear something that would justify the attack...) Lily also accuses James (in the Worst Memory Scene) of being a bully in general, attacking people just because he could. Furthermore we know James tried to trip Snape on the train. That was their first interaction. Tripping someone is agression. So I don't think at all that we are meant to think that the bullying started as a kind of "just punishment" for Snape by the "good guys" or that we are meant to think that Snape did anything that could be a just or noble reason for a gang of attackers to disarm and immobilize and then torture and humiliate him. Nor do I think that this behaviour is something that was rightly tolerated by the school.
The fact is that we get evidence for James being a bully and starting attacks on Snape, while we never see Snape attacking anyone. Of course, it is possible to explain James's motivations as something more noble than just what meets the eye even without canon evidence as long as canon is not against it. But the same is true of Snape. (Recently by accident I have seen a fanfic version of POA on the internet, written from Snape's point of view and I read the part that was about the Shrieking Shack incident and afterwards. From Snape's point of view, it turned out that the teenage Snape had actually lost his trust in DD and in justice after the prank for a long time - is it not possible? It was also described how Snape had a terrible headache the night and the morning after the incident - remember the three instances of Expelliarmus and then all those bumps in the tunnel, thanks to Sirius? - and this was part of the reason why (in certain circumstances further discussed) he let it, accidentally, slip that Lupin was a werewolf.) So we can find out-of-book motivations for both James and Snape. What is in the books, however, supports James's bullying behaviour and not Snape's.
Dryleaves - Aug 13, 2008 10:06 am (#233 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 11:18 am
Oh Quinn, you don't have to feel sorry for me, but thanks anyway! But I still feel this line says something important about bullying and I don't think we have to reinterpret the worst memory scene completely after DH, even if I agree that it gets more dimensions. I also think this attitude of the Marauders towards Snape is shown in other situations as well, for example in the Hogwarts Express scene and in some comments from Sirius. I agree that the relationship between them, especially between Snape and James, is more complicated than that, but I don't think that the primary reason for the Marauders' behaviour towards Snape is Snape's own actions. And I don't think that they are ever completely equal.
I too have a problem with Sectumsempra. If Snape had used it fully at school I am sure it would have been noticed. I am not sure that I would call it a defensive spell, but it makes me think of those guys who carry a knife (or gun) and say that they do so in order to be able to defend themselves. I think many of them don't intend to use the knife other than for showing it or threatening others with it, but of course some of them end up injuring or killing someone. In this case Sectumsempra ought to be rather useless to Snape, because as it is a spell he would have to use it in order to show it. And if he showed it for real he would be expelled. The controlled level of damage is an option, but then some people might think after a while that the spell was weak and that it could do no more harm than was shown and it would appear less frightening. A knife is at least a knife. But maybe the controlled damage was enough. I don't think it makes sense that Snape would have been known to have used it as a DE, because it wouldn't be a good thing if he was an agent.
I agree that Sectumsempra illustrates Snape's fascination for Dark magic and it also reveals an ambivalence in him, because he remains rather proud of having invented it even later in life when he has other values. (And no, I don't think this pride is a proof that he has not changed at all.)It is his baby. But it is a dark spell and when he tries to use it for a "good" purpose it goes wrong with all the logic of tragic irony.
Evil me is just as fond of tragic irony as of sarcasm (at least in literature, that is ) but I think that even if Snape often is responsible for his own misery nobody deserves that amount of tragic irony in their life. (Not even fictitious characters...)
ETA: I hope it didn't look as if I think it is allright to carry around a knife to threaten people with it. I don't!
And yes, you may be right, Julia.
Julia H. - Aug 13, 2008 10:15 am (#234 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 11:16 am
Actually, if Snape had used Sectumsempra to just cut up the meat or the vegetable on James's plate saying "I could do the same to you", he probably would not have been expelled and yet he would have demonstrated that he had a powerful weapon. I am not saying this is what happened but I do think he could have found ways to show what he could do and perhaps would do if attacked again (after the Worst Memory Scene?) without actually harming someone. But then again I don't think the Marauders would have been intimidated very easily and they may have guessed that Snape would not go that far.
Evil me is just as fond of tragic irony as of sarcasm (at least in literature, that is ) but I think that even if Snape often is responsible for his own misery nobody deserves that amount of tragic irony in their life. (Not even fictitious characters...) Dryleaves
I agree.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2008 10:22 am (#235 of 2988)
Furthermore we know James tried to trip Snape on the train. That was their first interaction.-- Julia H.
But then, we get four long years of quiet. There is simply no evidence that between deciding they hate each other on the train because of their House affiliations-- regardless of the trip-- that James was doing anything to Snape for any reason. In fact, all evidence from what the characters say and do supports the bullying behavior starting in the fifth year. Turning a trip on the train to relentless bullying of Snape year in and year out until the poor boy snapped under the pressure is a stretch to me that has no basis.
And again, the Worst memory happens after the Prank. It may not be the first time the Marauders have attacked Snape after the Prank. We don't actually have a timeline for fifth year so we would know how much time has past between the two events. But it is quite true that we don't see them attacking Snape before the Prank. So we have, in the fifth year, Snape sneaking around after them, Snape's fear that James fancies Lily, the Prank, and then bullying.
I agree that James is a bully in his fifth year (and so do the characters in the book--but no support for earlier bullying), but I'm not sure how that proves that Snape is nothing more than an innocent victim who has been set upon from the second he met James on the train, attacked year after year. I hear this a lot. I'd like evidence. Something more than them trading insults and James trying to trip him on the Hogwarts Express years ago in an isolated incident.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 13, 2008 11:16 am (#236 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 12:17 pm
Agreed, Mrs Brisbee. Surely Snape would have included at least one incident from their younger days in his "Prince's Memories" if there had been one to show. I think it makes a lot of sense that the Marauders really only started in on Snape once they learned that Snape a) suspected Lupin and was doing everything he could to expose him and b) had been trying to catch them at their nighttime antics.
The fact that Snape even knew about this at all is confusing to me. First, because James had the Cloak. Then there were the secret passages. In other words, the only way Snape could have known the Marauders were sneaking out is by actually following them somehow. I just don't get that part.
But remember a couple years ago at the World Cup final when Zinadine Zidane headbutted Marco Materrazzi? Even if you don't follow soccer/football, most people at least saw the video of Materrazzi throwing himself to the turf as if Zizou had come at him with a cannon. At the time, Zizou was sent off (ejected) and everyone thought he was such a horrible jerk and a "bully". But in reality, Materrazzi had been taunting Zidane through the whole game. This wasn't just your usual "trash talk" between competitors. Materrazzi was attacking Zidane personally, making fun of Zidane's North African heritage, saying things about his mother and sister, and so on.
It was all part of Materrazzi's strategy. Even the most even-tempered individual can only take so much of that sort of constant badgering. But Zizou was known for his volatile temper and Materrazzi played his last good nerve like a harp.
What does this have to do with Snape? Well, we Snape doing the very same thing to Sirius in OP. Snape taunts Sirius, deliberately presses all Sirius's emotional buttons, until Sirius pulls out his wand. If this is how Snape acts toward Sirius after 20 years have passed, how hard is it to imagine what Snape was like toward Sirius and/or James at school? I have no doubt that, even though Snape may not have always been the first to actually draw his wand, that neither was he was just an innocent bystander, always acting solely on the defense as James or Sirius came along and started flinging spells at him, either. And that's what I mean when I say Snape was a willing participant.
Orion - Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am (#237 of 2988)
Quinn, about Zidane: Great parallel, because Zidane wasn't the innocent victim who could "only take so much of that sort of constant badgering", the poor dear - no! Because this incident showed exactly that: That he didn't choose to retaliate with words or simply by ignoring Materazzi, but that he chose to react violently. And it's an alarming development in society- whether you look at parents, judges or the media - that violent reactions are looked upon with a hearty chuckle and even admiration, just like Vernon does regarding Dudley. Violence as typically male behaviour - "well you must understand, they can't help it".
Can't they? Are they thick?
Violence is simply not an option in a civilised society, and children should be taught just that, regardless of their gender. And I hate it if people say that it's the victims' own fault if they are bullied.
And in OOP Sirius starts the taunting, not Snape. There!
Quinn Crockett - Aug 13, 2008 12:06 pm (#238 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 1:47 pm
Thanks, Orion. I do very much agree with you about violent tendencies.
But actually, I was trying convey that Zidane did ignore Materrazzi, had been ignoring him for over an hour, in fact. Even in the footage that was shown over and over, Zidane is actually walking away from Materrazzi. He is trying to ignore Materrazzi. But it is Materrazzi who keeps egging Zidane on - and you can see this in the video - knowing that eventually Zidane will crack and that his temper will get the better of him.
I'm not saying Zizou was right, not at all. He deserved his red card. The man was known for his temper, and I doubt he just stood there quietly up to the point where he lashes out. But everyone - EVERYONE - has their breaking point. Materrazzi played Zizou on that. Snape played Sirius.
EDIT: In OP ch. 24, Harry walks into the kitchen to find Sirius and Snape already glaring at each other. So we really don't know who actually started it. However, what we are able to see, once Harry arrives on the scene, is that first Sirius objects to Snape's tone with Harry. Personally, I think this is valid, but it doesn't really matter.
Then Snape expresses annoyance that Sirius is present during his meeting with Harry. He is described as having "an ugly flush". This is pretty unprofessional. As Harry's legal guardian, even Snape must admit that Sirius has every right to be present during any meetings Harry might have with an instructor. But he uses the opportunity to jab at Sirius:
"But by all means stay, Black, I know you like to feel... involved."
"What's that supposed to mean?" said Sirius, letting his chair fall back onto all for legs with a loud bang.
"Merely that I am sure you must feel - ah - frustrated by the fact that you can do nothing useful," Snape laid a delicate stress on the word "for the Order."(Jab)
It was Sirius's turn to flush. Snape's lip curled in triumph as he turned to Harry....
Sirius asks Snape (albeit "aggressively") why he's teaching Harry instead of Dumbledore. Snape makes a snide remark that Dumbledore has the privilege of assigning "less enjoyable tasks". He further instructs Harry that if anyone asks he's supposed to tell them Snape is tutoring him in Remedial Potions, obviously another jab. He turns to leave, but Sirius calls him back.
Snape: "I am in rather a hurry, Black... unlike you, I do not have unlimited leisure time..."(Jab) At this point Harry notices that Snape "had balled his fist in the pocket of his cloak over what Harry was sure was the handle of his wand". Sirius does threaten Snape that, "You'll have me to answer to" if he hears that Snape has been using the Occlumency lessons as a way to harass Harry. (Again, I think this is quite reasonable, especially after Snape's last remark to Harry - and any parent would do the same, with the history these two men share and under the circumstances of Sirius knowing how Snape treats Harry.).
Snape responds to this by insulting James, then calls Sirius a coward, first merely openly alluding to it, then, when Sirius asks him directly, "Are you calling me a coward?" Snape answers, "Why, yes, I suppose I am."
Sirius is definitely hot-headed, but he doesn't raise his wand to Snape until Snape calls him a coward, Snape's own particular hot button as well. Snape calculates his every word to Sirius, and has his wand at the ready long before Sirius does.
PeskyPixie - Aug 13, 2008 3:43 pm (#239 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 4:46 pm
In the Worst memory scene it says that Snape reacts to Sirius/James as if he is expecting an attack. This made me assume that by this point several scuffles have already occurred.
Anyhow, I figured that the Snape vs. Marauders enmity from the moment they meet was a given, but I guess it can be interpreted differently ... it just isn't as interesting in this way though, and it makes the Marauders look worse, IMO. If the feud had begun earlier at least we could say that James and Sirius had gotten into bad habits as children which carry into their teens but they overcome by the time they come of age. If the Prank is the moment their fights really start then the Marauders are getting more immature with age, not less.
EDIT: I had assumed that in the kitchen of 12GP Snape and Sirius were giving one another the cold silent treatment, but you're right, Harry may have entered during the intermission of an argument in progress. Honestly, Severus and Sirius are beyond immature in this scene (you'd expect at least one to act like an adult in front of Harry), but I must admit that it makes for some delicious reading!
wynnleaf - Aug 13, 2008 7:21 pm (#240 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 8:26 pm
Did James and the Marauders attack Snape prior to the Prank?
Some say there's no evidence they did.
I agree that no specific examples are given of attacks prior to the Prank, but on the other hand, general comments about attacks aren't specifically said to be after the Prank.
So what evidence is there that James and Co. were attacking Snape, or others as well, prior to the Prank?
1. HBP detention files mentioning attacks on others. Lily commenting on James "bullying", the fear that other students show when the Marauders are about to start a confrontation. These indicate that the Marauders attacked others as well, and therefore the idea that they only started attacking Snape because he was sneaking around trying to get them expelled doesn't fit, because they also attacked others who, presumably, weren't also trying to get them expelled. In other words, if it didn't take people sneaking around trying to dig up dirt on them to cause them attack people, why wait for that with Snape, especially when Lupin and Sirius say that Snape was a special case with James?
2. Why would Snape be trying to get Lupin expelled, if his only problem was with James and their rivalry over Lily? Sirius and Lupin said Snape was trying to get all of them expelled, but that makes little sense if the rest of the Marauders weren't actively doing something to Snape. After all, he wasn't rivals over Lily with all of them.
3. Immediately after the Prank, Lily comments to Snape about his friends Mulciber and Avery and their nasty Dark jokes. He uses the Marauders as a counter argument. How could he use them as any sort of comparison if all they had going was a verbal sparring match with Lily as the object of a rivalry? Lily's big comment about what makes the Marauders different from Mulciber and Avery is that "they don't use Dark Magic, though." Why couldn't she have just said, "at least they don't hurt anyone," or "at least they don't attack people" or "at least they don't pull cruel tormenting jokes on people." No, the big difference she came up with was that they didn't do Dark Magic.
4. Last, JKR has James use overt physical aggression on the train, in his first meeting with Snape. Sure it's just trying to trip Snape. But my point is that she shows James using a physical act against Snape when he's eleven years old and only just met Snape. I think that it is more likely that JKR is signaling that this is the beginning of James aggression to Snape, rather than that we're to believe that this was an isolated incident and James was never again physically aggressive to Snape until Snape drove him to it by trying to get he and his friends expelled.
I'm not sure what the purpose of this argument actually is. Is it to say that Snape's to blame for the bullying of the Marauders because they were only doing it because of his sneaking around? Hmm. You know, Draco wasn't really doing much bad other than arrogant jerk kinds of comments, yet Harry was sneaking around trying to dig up dirt on him. And Harry and Co. even attacked Draco after GOF, hexing them into unconsciousness for nothing but bad comments. So does this make Draco's later actions justified?? Was it okay just because Harry had a history of sneaking around trying to find out bad things about Draco?
On Sectumsempra. The recent discussion started because Quinn said that one piece of evidence that Snape was instigating attacks while at Hogwarts was that Snape invented Sectumsempra, which Quinn said was specifically for attacks.
Sure, Sectumsempra can be used offensively. I never meant to imply that it couldn't. And it can be used defensively as Harry tried to do. But neither gives us info on why Snape invented it - whether for defense or offense against enemies. And therefore it is no evidence that Snape instigated attacks on the Marauders while at school.
And as many have pointed out, the use of a full-fledged Sectumsempra at school couldn't fail to go unnoticed by teachers and Dumbledore. If he used it repeatedly, it would clearly have gotten Snape expelled.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2008 7:46 pm (#241 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 9:10 pm
I'm not sure what the purpose of this argument actually is.-- wynnleaf
Simply that this is the Snape thread, and as such what motivates Snape to do Snapey things is a topic of discussion. If someone holds forth a thesis that X happened, and therefore it motivated Snape to do Z, then it is helpful if X can be supported with canon references. If it cannot, then there is a question of if X is really the only or best explanation of what is going on. If there is other evidence that supports a thesis Y, then there is a viable alternative that we can weigh as we try to decide why Snape does the things he does.
That's the purpose of my argument, anyway.
Edit: I'm kind of too tired to do up a Thesis Y, but I suppose I should address wynnleaf's points (actually, I should be in bed sleeping, but...).
1. HBP detention files mentioning attacks on others. Lily commenting on James "bullying", the fear that other students show when the Marauders are about to start a confrontation. These indicate that the Marauders attacked others as well, and therefore the idea that they only started attacking Snape because he was sneaking around trying to get them expelled doesn't fit, because they also attacked others who, presumably, weren't also trying to get them expelled. In other words, if it didn't take people sneaking around trying to dig up dirt on them to cause them attack people, why wait for that with Snape, especially when Lupin and Sirius say that Snape was a special case with James?
Not what I said. I said they did engage in bullying in their fifth year. Sirius and Lupin say as much. The boxes are from which year? They don't support a thesis that James took an interest in bullying Snape prior to the prank, even if you could show that they were from before the prank. Snape's name doesn't appear as a victim of the Marauders anywhere within them. So the boxes don't prove anything we didn't already know, and add no additional information.
Also, Lily comments that James is as bad as Snape. Take that how you will.
2. Why would Snape be trying to get Lupin expelled, if his only problem was with James and their rivalry over Lily? Sirius and Lupin said Snape was trying to get all of them expelled, but that makes little sense if the rest of the Marauders weren't actively doing something to Snape. After all, he wasn't rivals over Lily with all of them.
Because James was the leader and the Marauders were all house mates to Lily? Snape wants them to look bad, and a werewolf looks pretty bad.
3. Immediately after the Prank, Lily comments to Snape about his friends Mulciber and Avery and their nasty Dark jokes. He uses the Marauders as a counter argument. How could he use them as any sort of comparison if all they had going was a verbal sparring match with Lily as the object of a rivalry? Lily's big comment about what makes the Marauders different from Mulciber and Avery is that "they don't use Dark Magic, though." Why couldn't she have just said, "at least they don't hurt anyone," or "at least they don't attack people" or "at least they don't pull cruel tormenting jokes on people." No, the big difference she came up with was that they didn't do Dark Magic.
The argument here seems to be that if the Marauders are bullies, then Snape is automatically one of their victims. But there is zero evidence that they have done anything to Snape prior to the Prank.
4. Last, JKR has James use overt physical aggression on the train, in his first meeting with Snape. Sure it's just trying to trip Snape. But my point is that she shows James using a physical act against Snape when he's eleven years old and only just met Snape. I think that it is more likely that JKR is signaling that this is the beginning of James aggression to Snape, rather than that we're to believe that this was an isolated incident and James was never again physically aggressive to Snape until Snape drove him to it by trying to get he and his friends expelled.
Yet, it is an isolated incident. Four years of nothing, until after the Prank. The detention boxes don't show Snape to be a special victim of the Marauders, or any kind of victim of the Marauders. What is lacking is evidence.
wynnleaf - Aug 13, 2008 7:59 pm (#242 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 9:06 pm
I can't see any evidence to support the notion that James did not initiate attacks against Snape until after the Prank. Because we know that James did initiate physical aggression toward Snape at their first meeting, and because we know that James was physically aggressive toward Snape in the 5th year and following, then if one is going to defend the idea that James only started attacking Snape after the Prank, I think the burden of literary proof, or evidence, needs to be to show that James didn't attack Snape in between 1st and 5th years, rather than to assume that he didn't because we have no explicit examples or comments specifically relating to those years.
I mean, the way this particular idea is being posed, it seems to me that if JKR had shown James being physically aggressive toward Snape in year two, the next argument would have been "well, how do we knowhe was aggressive toward him in years 3 and 4?" I mean, what exactly was JKR supposed to do to make it clear? She shows aggression right at the start, and then again in year 5. She shows other students somewhat fearful of the Marauder confrontations, James and Sirius getting detentions for hexing others, Lily speaking of him as a bully, Snape walking along reading over an exam and expecting to be attacked, and we're supposed to assume that James and friends were just nice guys who never hurt anyone until that terrible Snape, for some inexplicable reason, started trying to get not just James, but all James' friends expelled, all because JKR didn't show us even more examples or evidence of the Marauder aggression?
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2008 8:21 pm (#243 of 2988)
Er, how much lack of evidence needs to be collected before something counts as not happened?
Quinn Crockett - Aug 13, 2008 8:39 pm (#244 of 2988)
Edited Aug 13, 2008 10:04 pm
I think the burden of literary proof, or evidence, needs to be to show that James didn't attack Snape in between 1st and 5th years, rather than to assume that he didn't because we have no explicit examples or comments specifically relating to those years. - I'm sorry, but this makes me laugh Because essentially, Wynnleaf, you're demanding evidence that there is no evidence.
we're supposed to assume that James and friends were just nice guys who never hurt anyone until that terrible Snape, for some inexplicable reason, started trying to get not just James, but all James' friends expelled - That's definitely the battle you seem to be fighting, here, Wynnleaf. But not one person is saying that.
I also find the word "attacked" to be used rather liberally. Personally, I find someone deliberately pushing someone else's emotional hot buttons to be just as much of an "attack" as waving a wand at them.
mona amon - Aug 13, 2008 11:32 pm (#245 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 12:42 am
it's okay to Sectumsempra one's classmates? Interesting ... (Solitaire)
The only instance that we see of Snape using Sectumsempra on his classmates is the small gash that he gave James when he was tormenting him in the Worst Memory, if it was Sectumsempra. I'm with Ginny when she condones Harry's use of Sectumsempra against Draco. If James was in the habit of attacking Snape along with his gang when Snape was alone, as we see in the Worst Memory, then I can't help feeling glad Snape had 'something good up his sleeve'.
I think the Worst Memory scene set us up to put the cart before the horse, until we got to DH and received more information. I know I assumed after OotP that Snape was picked on up to the Prank, and after that James straightened up. Now, after the information in DH, I don't think James bothered much with Snape before the Prank.(Mrs. Brisbee)
Mrs. Brisbee, what information did we get in DH to show that James bothered Snape only after the Prank? The only new information that we get is that James and Sirius started bullying Snape right from their first encounter with him on the Hogwarts Express. And I do not think that very clear example of bullying (calling someone Snivellus and tripping them) was put there at random. It was to show us that James and Sirius were picking on him from day one.
Lupin tells Harry that "James and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other, it was just one of those things." He and Sirius never try to claim that the bullying was in retaliation for Snape sneaking around trying to get them expelled, even though, as Wynnleaf has pointed out several times, now was the time to mention it if it was the case, since Harry's opinion of James was at such a low.
Er, how much lack of evidence needs to be collected before something counts as not happened?
LOL, reminds me of that argument that Hermione and Xeno were having about the existence of the resurrection stone.
Hermione: Well, how can that be real?
Xeno: Prove that it is not!
Hermione: But that's completely ridiculous! How can I possibly prove it doesn't exist? Do you expect me to get hold of- of all the pebbles in the world and, and test them? I mean you could claim that anything is real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody's proved that it doesn't exist!
Xeno: Yes, you could. I'm glad to see you are opening your mind a little.
It's not a defensive spell, it's meant specifically for attack. (Quinn)
I feel it's a weapon- an invisible sword. It can be used for attack. It can be used for defense. When Harry uses it against Draco, he uses it to attack. When he uses it against the inferi in the cave, he's attempting to defend himself.
I feel he invented the spell to feel safer from his enemies, the way a bullied muggle child sometimes ends up carrying a knife or gun to school. It is a bad thing, but it's a lot better to look into the reasons why the kid resorted to this extreme measure than to waste our breath exclaiming about how bad the kid is. (I'm not saying anyone here is doing this, BTW) I'm sure the bullies are basically honest, upright kids who would never dream of shooting or knifing anyone. Yet this is the point to which their thoughtless behaviour leads.
Surely Snape would have included at least one incident from their younger days in his "Prince's Memories" if there had been one to show. (Quinn)
Let's remember that Snape at this point was not trying to show Harry what a jerk he thought his dad was. He was showing Harry memories that demonstrated that he was Dumbledore's man, and that Harry was a Horcrux.
Mercy! But who knows? Maybe that's how the Cruciatus Curse was invented - by someone who was bullied at school.
Quinn, I suppose you mean this ironically, but I think it's perfectly possible that the Cruciatus Curse was invented by someone who was bullied at school.
-----------
Ha, Quinn, I too was reminded of an incident in the HP books after seeing Zizou headbutt Materrazzi, but I was thinking of the incident in OOTP where George and Harry get a 'lifetime' ban from quidditch after attacking Malfoy for insulting their mothers. Almost an exact parallel, I think.
Due to lack of time I only skimmed through all the recent posts before posting this, I'll come back to read them properly later. Sorry if I've repeated anyone else's ideas.
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 1:17 am (#246 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 2:32 am
I'm sorry, but this makes me laugh Because essentially, Wynnleaf, you're demanding evidence that there is no evidence. (Quinn)
No, that's not what I'm doing. JKR gave clear evidence that James and friends bullied later - 5th year forward. Then she gave us the scene in DH where James and Snape meet for the first time and James is starting off their acquaintanceship with bullying. This isn't a court of law where real people are innocent until proven guilty. This is a book series where the author tries to show within a few scenes a picture of a character, what they're like, the kinds of ways they act, etc. JKR shows us James-as-bully at age 11 (arrogant and physically aggressive) and shows us James-as-bully at age 15. You want to believe that James between those times was not a bully, just because JKR didn't give us scenes about him in between those times. But since she has only shown us scenes of youthful James-as-bully, I think that we are to assume that his behavior at age 11 continued in a steady progression until his behavior at age 15 - unless there is evidence to show that his behavior at age 11 was an isolated incident, that his behavior at age 15 was new for him, or his behavior in between was in fact not the same as his behavior during the scenes at either end.
One might just as easily say on a more extreme example that even though we learn that Mulciber and Avery were into Dark Magic at age 15 and were known Death Eaters several years later, that because there's no scenes revealing info of them at age 16 and 17, we can assume that they were sweet and loving guys who'd never hurt a flea during the intervening years.
Or what about Harry. Gosh we don't know what Harry was really like before the stories open. Maybe if someone developed an opinion that prior to the start of the books, Harry was an awful, nasty brat who actually caused the Dursleys to hate him, that would explain the Dursley's attitude (hey, they were sending gifts when he was a baby, right?), and therefore it's just as valid to assume that Harry was a horror as a young child as to assume he was a nice kid. After all, while he may have been a nice kid at age 10, the Dursleys did hate him after all. And we aren't actually shown Harry being a nice kid at age 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. So isn't it just as valid a theory that Harry was an awful kid before?
No, it's not. A person might think that of course. But JKR did not set up a literary pattern that shows Harry during the years we don't know him was any different than the kid we meet at age 11.
Ditto James. We see him at age 11 being an arrogant little bully. Even if a person wouldn't call it bullying (I do), it's at least James-as-physically-aggressive toward Snape. At age 15 or so, he's a bigger arrogant bully. The literary points are set up. If he was a nice, sweet kid in between, there needs to be some evidence that the scenes JKR did show us of James at ages 11 and 15 weren't the "norm" for James in between.
mona amon - Aug 14, 2008 1:46 am (#247 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 2:47 am
A very well-reasoned argument, Wynnleaf!
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 2:01 am (#248 of 2988)
Thanks mona amon.
Of course, this reasoning is most especially true for more minor characters. The less time that JKR spends giving in-depth character development, the more the little bits she gives us are important to understand the character.
So Snape, like other characters with lots of on-page scenes, is far more 3-dimensional and his character is not "painted with a broad brush". When an author uses a character in just a few scenes, a good author is usually trying to give us the gist of that character within the scenes where we actually meet the character. Therefore those few scenes are very important to understanding the character. Good literary analysis would not assume that the few scenes that the author gave us where we actually see the character in action are unusual for the character and don't reveal what the character is really like, unless there was actual evidence that those scenes weren't typical of the character.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 14, 2008 4:10 am (#249 of 2988)
Okay, let me see if I can compile enough Lack Of Evidence to prove my case .
DH, Ch 33, "The Princes Tale":
James and Sirius imitated her lofty voice; James tried to trip Snape as he passed.
Okay, here is the attempted trip. Onward! Segue to Sorting Hat, segue from there right to fifth year.
"What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?" demanded Snape. His color rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.
"What's Potter got to do with anything?" said Lily.
"They sneak out at night. There's something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?"
So, there's the first bit of Lack Of Evidence. Lily doesn't think Potter is relevant, and Snape doesn't cite himself being bullied as a reason she should be concerned about Potter. And if they were bullying Snape, she should know about it anyway. But why is Snape obsessed with Potter?
:"He's ill", said Lily. "They say he's ill."
"Every month at the full moon?"
"I know your theory," said, and she sounded cold. "Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care where they are going at night?"
If Snape was being tormented by Potter, Lily wouldn't be asking that question. Snape replies:
"I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think."
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
So right there Snape gives us his motive for his obsession with the Marauders, and particularly James: Lily.
And, as I feared, my daughter is bored and demands attention. I'll finish this when I get time.
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 4:37 am (#250 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 5:58 am
This is immediately after the Prank. Snape is bringing up Lupin specifically because he's focused on that. He knows that Lupin is a werewolf, but can't tell Lily the truth. Yet he wants her to see it for herself. That's why he's focused on that. And remember, we may have a better attitude about a character being a werewolf because we mostly all like Lupin. But in the Wizarding World, werewolves were generally considered terribly dangerous and they are Dark creatures. Snape bringing up Lupin is, in his opinion, bringing up one of the worst pieces of info about the Marauders, because it shows that one actually is Dark and deadly (as opposed to doing Dark Magic) and that the rest of the Marauders willingly hang out with a Dark creature. Further, Snape believes that the Marauders have just tried to kill him, although he can't tell Lily his beliefs. That kind of pales in comparison to any earlier attacks, even if they were 4 to 1.
Neither Snape nor Lily need to review what they already both know about James. Whatever it is they both know about James, it kind of goes without saying. The only thing Snape really knows that Lily does not is that Lupin is a werewolf.
But this is a bit similar to Hermione and Ron thinking Harry is going overboard about his following Draco. They know that Draco is a jerk, arrogant, and a bully, but they still think Harry is obsessed with Draco. And they're a lot nicer about it than Lily. Their thinking Harry is obsessed and going too far in his suspicions of Draco does not mean they have no clue about what Draco is really like or what he's done in the past.
I note that you left out Lily's later comment where she basically defends the Marauders (prior to mentioning James saving Snape's life) with "they don't do Dark Magic though" as though that's about the best she can say for them other than James' recent "saving" of Snape, for which Lily doesn't actually know the details.
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Steve Newton - Aug 14, 2008 5:11 am (#251 of 2988)
wynnleaf "Why would Snape be trying to get Lupin expelled, if his only problem was with James and their rivalry over Lily?"
Severus, being DE material, would think that simply being a werewolf was grounds for expulsion.
At first I typed Sirius instead of Severus in the above. Are their names close enough to suggest a connection? Or, alternatively, I am a klutz. Always the deep questions.
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 5:35 am (#252 of 2988)
Yes, but Snape didn't just wake up one day knowing Lupin was a werewolf and therefore should be expelled. He wanted Lupin and all of James' friends expelled first and that's what motivated him to investigate what the Marauders were "getting up to" at night.
Why would he care about getting Lupin and the others expelled before knowing Lupin was a werewolf, if the only thing wrong with the Marauders was that they were friends of James, his rival for Lily's friendship/affection?
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 14, 2008 6:02 am (#253 of 2988)
Neither Snape nor Lily need to review what they already both know about James. Whatever it is they both know about James, it kind of goes without saying.-- wynnleaf
I still don't have much time, but.... this is a book. Isn't it important for the readers to know what the characters know? Especially if it is important to the plot? I mean, really, James tries to trip Snape, therefore James absolutely must be continuously attacking Snape from that point on, but none of the characters involved need to mention it for the readers sake because the characters already know everything. How secret should these alleged attacks be before we are allowed to consider that they might not have even happened?
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 7:03 am (#254 of 2988)
By the way, Lupin states somewhere that he was made a prefect primarily in an attempt by the staff to curb the behavior of the Marauders, thinking Lupin would exert some sort of influence over them. Since prefects are chosen at the end of the 4th year, that means that well before the Prank, their behavior was so bad that in a school of hundreds of kids, a prefect was chosen primarily just to deal with the Marauders.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 14, 2008 8:26 am (#255 of 2988)
We already know that the Marauders were troublemakers. That much isn't a book secret. What we need is something that ties it in to Snape. I hear it bandied about on various threads that the Marauders picked on Snape relentlessly from day one, and that's what motivated Snape to do many of the things he did. The Marauders Were Bad Boys does not equal Snape Was Picked On. I just want to hear some evidence that supports the claim that Snape was bullied by the Marauders before the Prank, let alone relentlessly for the previous four years.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 14, 2008 8:33 am (#256 of 2988)
One might just as easily say on a more extreme example that even though we learn that Mulciber and Avery were into Dark Magic at age 15 and were known Death Eaters several years later, that because there's no scenes revealing info of them at age 16 and 17, we can assume that they were sweet and loving guys who'd never hurt a flea during the intervening years. - Wynnleaf
And yet this is exactly what you want us believe about Snape. You expect us to believe that, even though we know Snape was "into Dark Magic" at 15 and was a known Death Eater several years later - even though we have very clear evidence of the way he interacts with Sirius and Harry (who he sees as nothing more than James 2.0) - you think that because there are no scenes revealing Snape attacking James, we can assume that he was just an innocent victim who never raised his wand except in self defense.
Neither Snape nor Lily need to review what they already both know about James. Whatever it is they both know about James, it kind of goes without saying.
That would mean that, even though James has supposedly been attacking Snape on a regular basis for years, and even though this is common knowledge between them, that Lily is clueless as to "What's [James] got to do with it". That doesn't make any sense to me.
Lupin being made prefect is not evidence for "their behavior was so bad that in a school of hundreds of kids, a prefect was chosen primarily just to deal with the Marauders." For one thing, the idea that he was made prefect to try to control the Marauders was only Lupin's personal opinion on the matter, which is perfectly understandable coming from someone whose self esteem is so bad that that was the only explanation he could come up with. It would also suggest that Percy Weasley was only made prefect just because his younger brothers were troublemakers. And what about the fact that Draco Malfoy, a known bully, was also made prefect - as was Ron, who was actually threatened with expulsion at one point. And that the dastardly James Potter himself was later made Head Boy.
PeskyPixie - Aug 14, 2008 8:34 am (#257 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 9:36 am
James and Sirius are bullies, even without Snape in the equation. That much is clear from Lily during the Prank, and from bits and pieces of information from sources other than Snape (such as Sirius and Remus themselves). To suggest that they had no choice but to retaliate to nasty Snivelly's sneaking makes no sense to me.
From my understanding of the books, James and Sirius are cool and popular and go out of their way to assert their dominance and show off their magical abilities. They probably have supporters who are willing to laugh at everything they do (maybe in hopes of not being targetted themselves?) and those who annoy them (for any variety of reasons) are hexed. Some perhaps tattle on them, others may quietly take it, but some are scrappy enough to fight back, and I think Snape falls into this last category. From his very first encounter with James and Sirius we see that he is not the type to take nonsense from anyone. He'll try to fight back even if he comes off as the loser. As such, I'm sure he doesn't win any points from James and the two develop an enmity which deepens as James' hormones kick in.
Now, I don't think that James and Sirius wish any long-term damage upon their 'victims', but their careless behaviour can have severe reactions in others, even when they've outgrown their behaviour and matured. On a personal note, some people who treated me horribly as a child now pick on me as adults for minimizing my association with them because they have 'grown out of' their behaviour. Well, without an apology and recognition of the severity of their behaviour, that's a hard thing to do.
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 9:30 am (#258 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 10:35 am
You expect us to believe that, even though we know Snape was "into Dark Magic" at 15 and was a known Death Eater several years later - even though we have very clear evidence of the way he interacts with Sirius and Harry (who he sees as nothing more than James 2.0) - you think that because there are no scenes revealing Snape attacking James, we can assume that he was just an innocent victim who never raised his wand except in self defense. (Quinn)
What I'm trying to get at is physical aggression. I can't recall if it's Mulciber or Avery, but they directly use Dark Magic against Mary MacDonald. Then they are known Death Eaters in the first war and actively fight aurors or the Order. Physical aggression with Dark Magic at age 15 and physical aggression as Death Eaters a few years later -- it would be ludicrous to suggest they were mild-mannered nice guys in between.
We are never shown hard evidence that Snape was physically aggressive (defensive, yes), in particular with Dark Magic, while in school, in spite of any unsubstantiated claims that Snape created Sectumsempra to attack people. And later we are never shown that he was involved in the physical aggression of the Death Eaters -- he wasn't even well known to be one, no killing or torturing is ever attributed to Snape, etc. So there's no instance of me saying Snape was once physically aggressive and abusive to others, later was physically aggressive as a Death Eater, but was an innocent victim of the Marauders in between. Interest in the Dark Arts does not necessarily make Snape a physical aggressor in confrontations with anyone, especially when we're given no examples of such.
However, JKR shows eleven year old James as physically aggressive and using bullying actions in his first meeting with Snape. The chronological next actual scenes she shows of James, he's being physically aggressive and bullying. You want us to believe that James was not the aggressor in between, even though we're shown other that James had numerous detentions, some for hexing others, Lily's comments of his being a bully, Lupin thinking he was made a prefect to curtail Marauder behavior (hey, doesn't that at least mean Lupin is admiting that the Marauders were pretty bad before 5th year?), and the other evidence already mentioned.
I note, Quinn, that you continue to say that Snape's verbal sparring with Sirius and harsh and insulting manner to Harry is evidence that he'd be physically aggressive if he could. Plenty of people are verbally aggressive without being physically aggressive. It is circular reasoning to say that evidence that Snape was physically aggressive in the past is his verbal aggression as an adult which would, you say, turn in to physical aggression if he had the opportunity, which you believe because you think he was physically aggressive in the past.
Steve Newton - Aug 14, 2008 9:52 am (#259 of 2988)
Someone earlier corrected my assertion that Sirius was the driving force in the worst memory scene. (Sorry, I can't remember who.) I just reread the scene and it is James who first brings Snape to the the attention of his comrades. Sirius is the one who begins the name calling.
PeskyPixie - Aug 14, 2008 10:12 am (#260 of 2988)
Why do they call him Snivellus? I had thought (prior to DH) that there might be some sort of story behind it, but they just start calling him that from their first encounter aboard the Hogwarts Express.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 14, 2008 11:26 am (#261 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 12:34 pm
What I'm trying to get at is physical aggression. I note, Quinn, that you continue to say that Snape's verbal sparring with Sirius and harsh and insulting manner to Harry is evidence that he'd be physically aggressive if he could. - Wynnleaf
Yeah, that's right. But actually you should be noting that I am simply making no distinction between what you refer to as "physical aggression" and "verbal aggression". As I said before, deliberately pushing someone's emotional hot buttons is just as bad (if not worse) than drawing a wand on them.
Snape goads Sirius into drawing his wand in OP. Yet you would have us believe that this was just an isolated occurrence, entirely out of character and unprecedented for Snape.
You also seem to think that Lupin's remark that he was made prefect as the faculty's attempt to tame the Marauders carries considerable weight. But at the same time, you completely discount his assertion that "Snape never lost an opportunity to attack James" claiming that he is only saying this to appeal to Harry. What Lupin says about other characters either is "evidence" or it isn't. His opinion can't be "evidence" one minute then irrelevant the next.
To suggest that they had no choice but to retaliate to nasty Snivelly's sneaking makes no sense to me - Pesky
That's not really what I'm saying though. I'm just saying that I don't think that every confrontation was started by James/Sirius; that Snape started his share of them even though he may not have been the first to whip out his wand.
I think they call him Snivellus because "snivel" means "to speak or act in a whining, sniffling, tearful, or weakly emotional manner". In other words, they think he's a wuss.
By the way, I'd like to clarify something. My understanding is that Defensive Spells, by definition, do not inflict harm on anyone. They serve the purpose of blocking another spell or physically protecting you. In martial arts you learn moves specifically for blocking attacking punches/kicks. This is how I understand the defensive spells. Such spells include Expelliarmus, Protego (the shield charm), the Patronus charm, etc.
Attacking Spells cause harm or force the person to act against their will. Sectumsempra would definitely fall into that category, as would the unforgiveables of course. But also something like Tarantallegra or Rictusempra; Petrificus Totalus and I would even put Levicorpus in that category as well. With this in mind, counter-attacking - that is using an attacking spell "in self defense" is not the same thing as defense. In other words, casting a shield charm to block Sectumsempra would be considered "defense". But casting a Cruciatus because your opponent used the Sectumsempra would be "counter-attack" not "defense".
What does everyone else think?
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 12:05 pm (#262 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 1:07 pm
Quinn, I understand your use of the word "defensive" now. However, you had earlier used the fact that Sectumsempra is "defensive" as evidence that Snape initiated confrontations. Yet in the previous post, you agree that one can use a "defensive" spell for self-defence. So Sectumsempra is not therefore, even according to your definitions, necessarily evidence that Snape initiated confrontations.
You also seem to think that Lupin's remark that he was made prefect as the faculty's attempt to tame the Marauders carries considerable weight. But at the same time, you completely discount his assertion that "Snape never lost an opportunity to attack James" claiming that he is only saying this to appeal to Harry. What Lupin says about other characters either is "evidence" or it isn't. His opinion can't be "evidence" one minute then irrelevant the next. (Quinn)
Very valid comment. It is one that I've thought out rather thoroughly, but rarely explain.
In my opinion, even in real life, when in a questionable situation a person says things that in general add to their own culpability, that is they are admitting to wrongdoing by themselves and their group, their words carry greater likelihood of being true. However, when a person is in a questionable situation (where they and their group are under question), and they make comments that alleviate or reduce their culpability, then it is somewhat less likely that they are being completely truthful. This is in particular true of Lupin, because we already have been shown numerous instances where Lupin was very willing to bend the truth, conceal the truth, etc., even at grave risk to others, in order to keep the goodwill of another person.
Therefore, when Lupin makes comments that make his apparently bad actions or the actions of his friends look better we have to bear in mind that Lupin has a rather high likelihood of not being truthful. However, when Lupin admits to culpability, especially because he has a history of covering up culpability, it's more than likely that he's telling the truth.
The reason Lupin's comments about his being prefect are important is because, even if Lupin is wrong about the reasons he was made prefect, it means that Lupin sees the Marauders in the years prior to his being a prefect as being so bad that the staff made him prefect to help deal with them.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 14, 2008 3:46 pm (#263 of 2988)
you had earlier used the fact that Sectumsempra is "defensive" as evidence that Snape initiated confrontations. - Sorry about that. That was my fault then, because I certainly meant to say that the spell isn't inherently defensive. Was it a typo? I'll try to find the original post. Anyway sorry for the confusion.
I understand what you mean about Lupin, Wynnleaf and thanks for explaining that. I agree and have a tendency to do the same thing. But I also try (not always successfully) to hold the view that, because we have so little to go on in terms of developing a full picture of the secondary characters, we really can't discount anything any one of them says about each other, even if we don't entirely agree with or especially like the character.
mona amon - Aug 14, 2008 7:48 pm (#264 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 9:05 pm
"What's Potter got to do with anything?" said Lily.
Lily doesn't think Potter is relevant, and Snape doesn't cite himself being bullied as a reason she should be concerned about Potter. And if they were bullying Snape, she should know about it anyway. But why is Snape obsessed with Potter? (Mrs. Brisbee)
But doesn't think Potter relevant to what? From Lily's POV, Potter is not at all relevant to the topic they are discussing, whatever he may have done. She wants to talk about how horrible Avery and Mulciber are, she does not want to talk about James. So no doubt she feels annoyed when Snape keeps saying 'Potter! Potter!' everytime she tries to point out the error of his ways.
I'm sure Snape never discussed the bullying with the girl whose admiration he was trying to win. Getting bullied is so uncool, one of the reasons why such a lot of bullying goes completely unreported. And if she saw anything, she probably thought it was no big deal. She seems to find what they did to Snape in the Worst Memory quite amusing.
"I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think."
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
So right there Snape gives us his motive for his obsession with the Marauders, and particularly James: Lily.
I agree that rivalry over Lily was a very important factor in Snape's hatred of James (and vice versa), but this does not prove that he did not have other reasons for being obsessed with the Marauders.
I hear it bandied about on various threads that the Marauders picked on Snape relentlessly from day one,...
They did pick on him from day one, there's proof for that, but we do not know how frequent the attacks were. I feel they couldn't have been all that frequent because
1) They were in different houses
2) They had to catch Snape when he was alone
3) Snape would mostly be wary of attack and keep himself from trouble.
That's not really what I'm saying though. I'm just saying that I don't think that every confrontation was started by James/Sirius; that Snape started his share of them even though he may not have been the first to whip out his wand. (Quinn)
I think it is quite realistic to suppose that Snape may have started an attack if he thought he could win, say one of those rare occasions when he found James or Sirius alone. Most of the time he would not, because it's plain stupid to start a fight (by pushing their buttons or whatever) when you are outnumbered four to one. All the evidence (and I'm even including what Lupin says as evidence) we have seems to show that Snape did not have equal culpability with the Marauders in this enemity.
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 8:33 pm (#265 of 2988)
They had to catch Snape when he was alone
Snape would mostly be wary of attack and keep himself from trouble.
Later in their school years, the Marauders invented the Marauder's Map. I don't think we know what year they were in when they made it, but it would have definitely given them an advantage anytime they wanted to plan an attack or prank on anyone, because it would be so easy to track other people and catch them alone. At whatever point the Marauders were attacking Snape, the Map would have given them a huge advantage, in addition to have a group of four compared to Snape alone.
Dryleaves - Aug 15, 2008 12:02 am (#266 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 1:03 am
I think they call him Snivellus because "snivel" means "to speak or act in a whining, sniffling, tearful, or weakly emotional manner". In other words, they think he's a wuss. (Quinn)
On the Hogwarts Express something happens that results in James and Sirius calling Snape "Snivellus", trying to trip him and not Snape and Sirius calling James "Four-eyes" trying to trip him. "Snivellus" has nothing to with Snape snivelling, because I cannot see he does, but because he is the loser of the interaction and probably this name is what Sirius can come up with at the moment, something that is derogatory and sounds a bit like Severus. I do not think Snape can be blamed for losing the interaction. In the worst memory scene they have not forgotten about this name and have even familiarized it into "Snivelly", and that might indicate that they have continued to pick on him from that first encounter and on, but I agree with Mona that it may not have been that frequent.
I think it is quite realistic to suppose that Snape may have started an attack if he thought he could win, say one of those rare occasions when he found James or Sirius alone...All the evidence (and I'm even including what Lupin says as evidence) we have seems to show that Snape did not have equal culpability with the Marauders in this enemity. (Mona)
I agree with this. Not equal culpability but not equal in number or "power" either. Even if it is James and Sirius that seem to be the active ones the other two Marauders seem to do nothing to stop it. Snape's flaw is that he is very soon to use an advantage if he gets one to get back at the Marauders, even twenty years later in the kitchen of Number 12 Grimmauld Place, for example. But this does not mean he was an all equal combatant all along.
Great point about the Marauders' Map, BTW, Wynnleaf.
wynnleaf - Aug 15, 2008 5:33 am (#267 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 6:34 am
I don't, by the way, mean to say that I actually think that Snape never, ever instigated an attack on James or Sirius or any of them. Yes, it is certainly possible that, if he found one of them alone or for some reason thought he had an advantage, he might have tried to get back at them through an attack. He's a pretty brave person, after all, and wouldn't just take their attacks without doing anything if it were possible to get back at one of them.
BUT, there is no specific evidence that he ever did instigate any attacks. No detention records, no one recalling any particular incident, no mention of it by Lily or the Marauders, no mention of it by Snape or anyone else.
Further, we never see or hear of Snape having a group of friends that he gets into fights with -- that is, no mention of a crowd that join him in fighting with other kids. And in the Worst Memory scene no Slytherin friend comes to his aid. And Snape himself speaks of confrontations with the Marauders as though he was always alone. It is in part because he was apparently always alone in confrontations with them that I doubt that many of the fights were instigated by Snape. James and Sirius seem to have been together a great deal. It would probably be hard to catch one of them alone.
As for the frequency, Sirius and Lupin assert that Snape was a "special case" for James. Yet James was in a good deal of trouble frequently according to McGonagall, detention records, and Lupin's thought that he was made prefect to help control the Marauders, etc. So if James was in trouble a good deal anyway, how would a kid prone to rulebreaking and trouble making be acting toward what he'd think of as a "special case"? Probably going after Snape a good deal, I'd think.
Julia H. - Aug 15, 2008 9:46 am (#268 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 10:50 am
In the worst memory scene they have not forgotten about this name and have even familiarized it into "Snivelly", and that might indicate that they have continued to pick on him from that first encounter and on, but I agree with Mona that it may not have been that frequent. Dryleaves
Great observation, Dryleaves! The continuity of the degrading name five years later suggests the continuity of the enmity, perhaps even the attacks, in the intervening time and certainly before the Prank. It is probable that in the earlier years the attacks were not as serious as the ones in the fifth year and afterwards, since the boys did not know magic so well yet. Since "The Prince's Tale" is not about the enmity between Snape and James in the first place but about Snape's own bad choices, his return, his loyalty and DD's message to Harry, I do not find it surprising that JKR / Snape did not include more instances of tripping or fighting before the fifth year.
I do not agree with the idea that the evidence for the first tripping and the evidence of the Worst Memory is not meant to describe the general relationship between the two boys during their school years. I don't think that, from a literary standpoint, they are "isolated incidents". To start with, it would make no sense to include the meeting on the train in the books at all if it had no relevance with regard to the rest of the story. And the only kind of relevance I can think of is that this was the moment when the enmity started and got its basic tone.
As Pesky, too, mentioned, in the Worst Memory Scene, Snape reacts as if he had expected the attack - this suggests that this is by no means the first attack. Mona has a good point when she says Snape may not want to tell Lily about the bullying (he is already called "Snivellus" so he may not want to seemingly justify this nickname by complaining). This makes his anger at Lily in the Worst Memory Scene more understandable: he does not want her in the first place to see him being bullied and even less does he want to be rescued by her ("I don't need help...").
I don't think we are meant to think that Snape never instigated an attack on the Marauders but I do think the scenes we get indicate that James and Sirius are more responsible for the starting of the enmity in general and for setting the tone for the enmity and, most of all, for starting physical violence. Once the physical violence is established between them, I find it totally possible that Snape started some of the attacks or - being alone against four - did other things to stop them bullying him (e.g., inventing spells that would level out the difference in number between them a bit). I think Lupin's comment about Snape always hexing James refers to the seventh year, when James and Lily are going out together, but at least to the period after the Worst Memory Scene because that is the time they are talking about. But not even Lupin says that Snape ever gang-attacked James or Sirius - and attacking in a gang is another typical aspect of bullying. However, Snape does mention the four-on-one thing and we see it happen in the Worst Memory. Besides, in the chapter "The Sacking of Severus Snape", we see how good Snape is at defending himself against several attackers at the same time. I always thought that this scene indirectly refers to the four-on-one experiences of the student Snape in the same place.
The way I see it is that the enmity starts on the train with a verbal exchange. If they stayed on this level, perhaps there would be no great problem. But James goes one step further and reacts to the verbal exchange by trying to trip Snape. This, I think, is an out-of-proportion reaction and puts the enmity on a new level.
Nobody in the books ever says that they think the Worst Memory is rightful punishment for Snape sneaking after the Marauders before the Prank. And why would it be? Sirius has already "punished" Snape for that by trying to feed him to a werewolf. IMO, attempted (even if indirect) murder is again a rather extreme reaction to someone trying to find out a secret. It is simply not in proportion. Then DD also decided on the punishment he thought reasonable (whatever it was), so further punishment is not justified and again, nobody in the books suggests that. So I think the cycle of enmity becomes a truly vicious one when the responses reach higher and higher levels of violence.
Besides, I do not agree with the notion that victims of bullying are the responsible ones for what happens to them - and I do think that being bullied by the Gryffindor guys strengthened Snape's ties to the Slytherin gang, who presumably did not bully him.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 15, 2008 10:39 am (#269 of 2988)
"Snivellus" is just an insulting nickname given to "Severus". It doesn't mean he actually snivels. I don't think we need to read any more into it than that.
BUT, there is no specific evidence that he ever did instigate any attacks - There is no specific evidence that he didn't, either. But we do have plenty of evidence of how he incites people. How is that not the same thing as "instigating an attack"?
I think by "special case" Lupin meant that James actually had strong personal feelings about Snape - he hated him - whereas all of the other "petty misdeeds" were not really personal toward any person involved. Also, at this point Harry still doesn't know that Snape and his mother had once been close. I have always wondered whether or not Lupin and Sirius knew that. Because why doesn't Lupin just say something like "Well, Snape and your mother were pretty close and that drove James crazy."
The lack of detention records about Snape can hardly count as a point of evidence that he never got into trouble when Snape, himself, personally selected the records being recopied.
While no one recalls any particular incident, Lupin does say, "Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James". While Lupin may be simply trying to appeal to Harry's sense of justice, this seems unlikely because just prior to that, both Sirius and Lupin express guilt and remorse over their behavior toward Snape during their school days. Lupin even says, "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape? Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?"
The comment comes right along with the "special case" remark.
"Oh, well, [James] always made a fool of himself whenever Lily was around." said Sirius, shrugging. "He couldn't stop himself showing off whenever he got near her."
"How come she married him?" Harry asked miserably. "She hated him!"
"Nah, she didn't," said Sirius.
"She started going out with him in seventh year," said Lupin.
"Once James had deflated his head a bit," said Sirius.
"And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it," said Lupin.
"Even Snape?" said Harry.
"Well", said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?" (OP ch. 29)
Lupin also says that "Sectumsempra was always a specialty of Snape's". While it remains unclear how Snape could have used this at school without any consequences (though, I think we've fanwanked enough adequate explanation for it), we do see Dolohov use a spell on Hermione in the Dept of Mysteries that looks suspiciously like the Sectumsempra. Dolohov was part of a team that included none other than Avery and Mulciber, Snape's old friends from school.
What's my point? Only that even if Snape didn't personally use the spell - or at least the full-powered version of it - while he was at school, it seems highly likely that he would have passed on the knowledge of the spell to his friends. In any case, he certainly got a reputation for being "up to his eyeballs in Dark Arts" somehow.
severusisn'tevil - Aug 15, 2008 10:40 am (#270 of 2988)
I'm baaack, Orion. Thanks very much for the email. I am touched.
Anyway, what I've always wondered is, Where the heck were the teachers all the times that Severus was getting jumped? I know he's not entirely a victim, believe me, but the Mauraders *did* start it, that's pretty well established. Then again, I'm a high school student myself. I know things happen that just don't get noticed, or why else would we have school shootings? Still.
The WM *punishment*? Huh??? Honestly, that's not something I'd (necessarily) wish on my worst enemy. Then again, and I contradict myself, if one speaks of the events *leading up to* the apex of the WM ("Mudblood!"), the Levicorpus, display of underwear, and so on, it *is* understandable.
I can't believe I, a more rabid Severus fan there does not exist, am saying this, but. . .whatever else the smaller and fatheaded versions of James, Remus and Sirius had wrong with them, they were fierce friends to one another, especially James. Therefore, could the events leading up the the apex be a warning of sorts? It carries James' cruel and unnecessary signature, but could it simply be a message of "You don't mess with my friends, and you certainly don't try to actually hurt them"?
Then again, the given reason for the start of the whole mess was Sirius's profession of "being bored." So maybe not.
The tiny unbiased part of me (and believe me, it's minute) also says that we all may be reading too much into this simply because we have a rather privileged view of the whole mess, i.e. inside Severus's head. We know what he's thinking and feeling, and we also know the significance of the events. For James, apart from the possible "warning" aspect of it, had no real idea that what was going on was anything more than just another brush with "Snivellus", not that I think that excuses his behavior. I find it rather nauseating that he took it that far and then tried to use the situation to blackmail a date out of Lily.
And speaking of which, he must, then, have known that she cared about him---Severus, I mean--- and enough to go up against the popular crowd to demand his release, which makes James' actions even more disgusting.
And no, I (unsurprisingly) don't see Severus as responsible for how James treats him, at least at first. I will concede he does not exactly help the situation.
I noticed something, though: Sirius says to Harry, in defense of James, which adds bias to start with that "Snape was a special case. He never missed an opportunity to curse James and you couldn't expect James to take that lying down." Is it just me, or does the defense he uses seem more relevant and proper for Severus? From the look of things, the M's never lost an opportunity to curse *Severus* and make *Severus's* life difficult. And no, Severus did not take it "lying down." Good for him. He was and remains a resourceful man with a vengeful streak.
On Severus's vengeful streak though, a short tangent. He is vengeful for himself personally as a boy, getting James back for all the junk James heaped on him to start with. But over time, his vengeance changes. He is vengeful toward LV on his own and *Lily's* behalf. The revenge becomes less completely about him, and partly about Lily. Maybe I'm just a sucker for characters like Severus, and Spike and V, and Edmond Dant`es, but it seems that kind of vengeance shows deep, deep loyalty.
OK, I've babbled enough. It's good to be back.
Orion - Aug 15, 2008 10:50 am (#271 of 2988)
"And no, I (unsurprisingly) don't see Severus as responsible for how James treats him, at least at first. I will concede he does not exactly help the situation." (severusisn'tevil)
Well, maybe it would have helped if he had chosen to keep his big fat mouth shut. I don't know. It is an option which can, in the worst possible case, be viewed as submissive behaviour, but it would have been quite sensible. Some people have such a psycho-glint in their eyes that you know "best get out of here quickly" and James is described as this kind of type. Snape is just very easily provoked. It also shows in his frequent encounters with Harry.
Great you're back, severusisn'tevil! Go and write an Epilogue, it's fun! Did you have computer trouble?
Quinn Crockett - Aug 15, 2008 11:07 am (#272 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 12:08 pm
On the "four against one" issue, I think we need to remember that, in Snape's mind, the Marauders are a single entity. So regardless of who is actually waving the wand - and from what we're shown, this was only ever James and/or Sirius - to Snape it's all four of them. Secondly, Lupin says, "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape? Did I ever have the guts to say you were out of order?" Lupin's guilt is not that he personally did anything to Snape, but that he never tried to keep his friends from doing anything. Even in the Worst Memory, Lupin is not actively participating in the event. Granted, he doesn't do anything to try to stop it either. But it supports his remorse being legitimately based on his inaction rather than his participation.
Then there is Pettigrew. He really seems to have been a non-factor in the whole experience.
wynnleaf - Aug 15, 2008 11:30 am (#273 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 12:33 pm
Lupin's guilt is not that he personally did anything to Snape, but that he never tried to keep his friends from doing anything. (Quinn)
After Lupin was made a prefect, he had both the authority and the duty to attempt to stop the other Marauders from wrongful behavior. Whenever he stood by and watched, he was giving tacit approval and, as a person with authority to stop it, that makes him extremely complicit. A person with authority to act giving tacit approval is very, very wrong. And it only made Snape's position worse because that meant the person who should have been there as a voice of authority calling a halt to a situation, or calling a teacher, willfully chose not to act.
Does Snape make the situation worse by his comments to James and Sirius?
Certainly James and Sirius react negatively to Snape's words and his defensive actions. But bullies generally don't stop just because the victim tries to placate them. In fact, many bullies only get worse because they like that sense of control. For instance, James acts as though it's Snape's cursing that causes him to use Scourgify on Snape, but that's just a typical bullying tactic, blaming the victim who attempts to resist for the actions of the bully who now "has to" punish the victim again for trying to resist. It's very similar, in my opinion, to James' threat to Lily to cease trying to stop him or she'll be "making him" hex her.
severusisn'tevil
I love your reference to Edmond Dantes, one of my all-time favorite literary characters. I'm not sure that Snape's actually after vengence as much as he is trying to protect a part of Lily (Harry). However, if vengence is a strong motivation for him, I don't think it's anywhere nearly so much as Dantes.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 15, 2008 11:49 am (#274 of 2988)
Whenever he stood by and watched, he was giving tacit approval and, as a person with authority to stop it, that makes him extremely complicit - Whether he had the "authority" to put an end to it or not is irrelevant. That he stood by and did nothing is what made him complicit.
Interesting that I have seen this very argument - that he merely stood by and didn't actually do anything - made for Snape's lack of culpability with regard to Mary MacDonald, and even his Death Eater days.
Dryleaves - Aug 15, 2008 11:57 am (#275 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Quinn, I agree with you that it probably is James and Sirius who are the ones who actively attack Snape, but I do not find it exaggerated or untrue when Snape speaks of four against one. At least in the Worst Memory scene Lupin is not participating, but he does not intervene either (just as you say). Pettigrew, I feel, is egging on, maybe not with words but with his behaviour. I get the impression that the Marauders stick together most of the time and Lupin and Pettigrew support James and Sirius, but not Snape. Lupin and Pettigrew are more than just a part of the crowd, and I think therefore Snape later in life cannot believe anything else about Lupin than that he must be supporting his old friend Sirius. That is not correct then, of course, but Snape cannot tell them apart because they acted as a unity, even if all four did not act in the same way. Literally Lupin and Pettigrew may not actively bully Snape, but in essence they do, because they seem to be there, backing up James and Sirius. Therefore I do not find it strange if Snape regards all the Marauders as having the same purpose, and I do not think he is entirely mistaken when he says they were four against one.
Crossposted with Wynnleaf and Quinn
wynnleaf "Why would Snape be trying to get Lupin expelled, if his only problem was with James and their rivalry over Lily?"
Severus, being DE material, would think that simply being a werewolf was grounds for expulsion.
At first I typed Sirius instead of Severus in the above. Are their names close enough to suggest a connection? Or, alternatively, I am a klutz. Always the deep questions.
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 5:35 am (#252 of 2988)
Yes, but Snape didn't just wake up one day knowing Lupin was a werewolf and therefore should be expelled. He wanted Lupin and all of James' friends expelled first and that's what motivated him to investigate what the Marauders were "getting up to" at night.
Why would he care about getting Lupin and the others expelled before knowing Lupin was a werewolf, if the only thing wrong with the Marauders was that they were friends of James, his rival for Lily's friendship/affection?
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 14, 2008 6:02 am (#253 of 2988)
Neither Snape nor Lily need to review what they already both know about James. Whatever it is they both know about James, it kind of goes without saying.-- wynnleaf
I still don't have much time, but.... this is a book. Isn't it important for the readers to know what the characters know? Especially if it is important to the plot? I mean, really, James tries to trip Snape, therefore James absolutely must be continuously attacking Snape from that point on, but none of the characters involved need to mention it for the readers sake because the characters already know everything. How secret should these alleged attacks be before we are allowed to consider that they might not have even happened?
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 7:03 am (#254 of 2988)
By the way, Lupin states somewhere that he was made a prefect primarily in an attempt by the staff to curb the behavior of the Marauders, thinking Lupin would exert some sort of influence over them. Since prefects are chosen at the end of the 4th year, that means that well before the Prank, their behavior was so bad that in a school of hundreds of kids, a prefect was chosen primarily just to deal with the Marauders.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 14, 2008 8:26 am (#255 of 2988)
We already know that the Marauders were troublemakers. That much isn't a book secret. What we need is something that ties it in to Snape. I hear it bandied about on various threads that the Marauders picked on Snape relentlessly from day one, and that's what motivated Snape to do many of the things he did. The Marauders Were Bad Boys does not equal Snape Was Picked On. I just want to hear some evidence that supports the claim that Snape was bullied by the Marauders before the Prank, let alone relentlessly for the previous four years.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 14, 2008 8:33 am (#256 of 2988)
One might just as easily say on a more extreme example that even though we learn that Mulciber and Avery were into Dark Magic at age 15 and were known Death Eaters several years later, that because there's no scenes revealing info of them at age 16 and 17, we can assume that they were sweet and loving guys who'd never hurt a flea during the intervening years. - Wynnleaf
And yet this is exactly what you want us believe about Snape. You expect us to believe that, even though we know Snape was "into Dark Magic" at 15 and was a known Death Eater several years later - even though we have very clear evidence of the way he interacts with Sirius and Harry (who he sees as nothing more than James 2.0) - you think that because there are no scenes revealing Snape attacking James, we can assume that he was just an innocent victim who never raised his wand except in self defense.
Neither Snape nor Lily need to review what they already both know about James. Whatever it is they both know about James, it kind of goes without saying.
That would mean that, even though James has supposedly been attacking Snape on a regular basis for years, and even though this is common knowledge between them, that Lily is clueless as to "What's [James] got to do with it". That doesn't make any sense to me.
Lupin being made prefect is not evidence for "their behavior was so bad that in a school of hundreds of kids, a prefect was chosen primarily just to deal with the Marauders." For one thing, the idea that he was made prefect to try to control the Marauders was only Lupin's personal opinion on the matter, which is perfectly understandable coming from someone whose self esteem is so bad that that was the only explanation he could come up with. It would also suggest that Percy Weasley was only made prefect just because his younger brothers were troublemakers. And what about the fact that Draco Malfoy, a known bully, was also made prefect - as was Ron, who was actually threatened with expulsion at one point. And that the dastardly James Potter himself was later made Head Boy.
PeskyPixie - Aug 14, 2008 8:34 am (#257 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 9:36 am
James and Sirius are bullies, even without Snape in the equation. That much is clear from Lily during the Prank, and from bits and pieces of information from sources other than Snape (such as Sirius and Remus themselves). To suggest that they had no choice but to retaliate to nasty Snivelly's sneaking makes no sense to me.
From my understanding of the books, James and Sirius are cool and popular and go out of their way to assert their dominance and show off their magical abilities. They probably have supporters who are willing to laugh at everything they do (maybe in hopes of not being targetted themselves?) and those who annoy them (for any variety of reasons) are hexed. Some perhaps tattle on them, others may quietly take it, but some are scrappy enough to fight back, and I think Snape falls into this last category. From his very first encounter with James and Sirius we see that he is not the type to take nonsense from anyone. He'll try to fight back even if he comes off as the loser. As such, I'm sure he doesn't win any points from James and the two develop an enmity which deepens as James' hormones kick in.
Now, I don't think that James and Sirius wish any long-term damage upon their 'victims', but their careless behaviour can have severe reactions in others, even when they've outgrown their behaviour and matured. On a personal note, some people who treated me horribly as a child now pick on me as adults for minimizing my association with them because they have 'grown out of' their behaviour. Well, without an apology and recognition of the severity of their behaviour, that's a hard thing to do.
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 9:30 am (#258 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 10:35 am
You expect us to believe that, even though we know Snape was "into Dark Magic" at 15 and was a known Death Eater several years later - even though we have very clear evidence of the way he interacts with Sirius and Harry (who he sees as nothing more than James 2.0) - you think that because there are no scenes revealing Snape attacking James, we can assume that he was just an innocent victim who never raised his wand except in self defense. (Quinn)
What I'm trying to get at is physical aggression. I can't recall if it's Mulciber or Avery, but they directly use Dark Magic against Mary MacDonald. Then they are known Death Eaters in the first war and actively fight aurors or the Order. Physical aggression with Dark Magic at age 15 and physical aggression as Death Eaters a few years later -- it would be ludicrous to suggest they were mild-mannered nice guys in between.
We are never shown hard evidence that Snape was physically aggressive (defensive, yes), in particular with Dark Magic, while in school, in spite of any unsubstantiated claims that Snape created Sectumsempra to attack people. And later we are never shown that he was involved in the physical aggression of the Death Eaters -- he wasn't even well known to be one, no killing or torturing is ever attributed to Snape, etc. So there's no instance of me saying Snape was once physically aggressive and abusive to others, later was physically aggressive as a Death Eater, but was an innocent victim of the Marauders in between. Interest in the Dark Arts does not necessarily make Snape a physical aggressor in confrontations with anyone, especially when we're given no examples of such.
However, JKR shows eleven year old James as physically aggressive and using bullying actions in his first meeting with Snape. The chronological next actual scenes she shows of James, he's being physically aggressive and bullying. You want us to believe that James was not the aggressor in between, even though we're shown other that James had numerous detentions, some for hexing others, Lily's comments of his being a bully, Lupin thinking he was made a prefect to curtail Marauder behavior (hey, doesn't that at least mean Lupin is admiting that the Marauders were pretty bad before 5th year?), and the other evidence already mentioned.
I note, Quinn, that you continue to say that Snape's verbal sparring with Sirius and harsh and insulting manner to Harry is evidence that he'd be physically aggressive if he could. Plenty of people are verbally aggressive without being physically aggressive. It is circular reasoning to say that evidence that Snape was physically aggressive in the past is his verbal aggression as an adult which would, you say, turn in to physical aggression if he had the opportunity, which you believe because you think he was physically aggressive in the past.
Steve Newton - Aug 14, 2008 9:52 am (#259 of 2988)
Someone earlier corrected my assertion that Sirius was the driving force in the worst memory scene. (Sorry, I can't remember who.) I just reread the scene and it is James who first brings Snape to the the attention of his comrades. Sirius is the one who begins the name calling.
PeskyPixie - Aug 14, 2008 10:12 am (#260 of 2988)
Why do they call him Snivellus? I had thought (prior to DH) that there might be some sort of story behind it, but they just start calling him that from their first encounter aboard the Hogwarts Express.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 14, 2008 11:26 am (#261 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 12:34 pm
What I'm trying to get at is physical aggression. I note, Quinn, that you continue to say that Snape's verbal sparring with Sirius and harsh and insulting manner to Harry is evidence that he'd be physically aggressive if he could. - Wynnleaf
Yeah, that's right. But actually you should be noting that I am simply making no distinction between what you refer to as "physical aggression" and "verbal aggression". As I said before, deliberately pushing someone's emotional hot buttons is just as bad (if not worse) than drawing a wand on them.
Snape goads Sirius into drawing his wand in OP. Yet you would have us believe that this was just an isolated occurrence, entirely out of character and unprecedented for Snape.
You also seem to think that Lupin's remark that he was made prefect as the faculty's attempt to tame the Marauders carries considerable weight. But at the same time, you completely discount his assertion that "Snape never lost an opportunity to attack James" claiming that he is only saying this to appeal to Harry. What Lupin says about other characters either is "evidence" or it isn't. His opinion can't be "evidence" one minute then irrelevant the next.
To suggest that they had no choice but to retaliate to nasty Snivelly's sneaking makes no sense to me - Pesky
That's not really what I'm saying though. I'm just saying that I don't think that every confrontation was started by James/Sirius; that Snape started his share of them even though he may not have been the first to whip out his wand.
I think they call him Snivellus because "snivel" means "to speak or act in a whining, sniffling, tearful, or weakly emotional manner". In other words, they think he's a wuss.
By the way, I'd like to clarify something. My understanding is that Defensive Spells, by definition, do not inflict harm on anyone. They serve the purpose of blocking another spell or physically protecting you. In martial arts you learn moves specifically for blocking attacking punches/kicks. This is how I understand the defensive spells. Such spells include Expelliarmus, Protego (the shield charm), the Patronus charm, etc.
Attacking Spells cause harm or force the person to act against their will. Sectumsempra would definitely fall into that category, as would the unforgiveables of course. But also something like Tarantallegra or Rictusempra; Petrificus Totalus and I would even put Levicorpus in that category as well. With this in mind, counter-attacking - that is using an attacking spell "in self defense" is not the same thing as defense. In other words, casting a shield charm to block Sectumsempra would be considered "defense". But casting a Cruciatus because your opponent used the Sectumsempra would be "counter-attack" not "defense".
What does everyone else think?
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 12:05 pm (#262 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 1:07 pm
Quinn, I understand your use of the word "defensive" now. However, you had earlier used the fact that Sectumsempra is "defensive" as evidence that Snape initiated confrontations. Yet in the previous post, you agree that one can use a "defensive" spell for self-defence. So Sectumsempra is not therefore, even according to your definitions, necessarily evidence that Snape initiated confrontations.
You also seem to think that Lupin's remark that he was made prefect as the faculty's attempt to tame the Marauders carries considerable weight. But at the same time, you completely discount his assertion that "Snape never lost an opportunity to attack James" claiming that he is only saying this to appeal to Harry. What Lupin says about other characters either is "evidence" or it isn't. His opinion can't be "evidence" one minute then irrelevant the next. (Quinn)
Very valid comment. It is one that I've thought out rather thoroughly, but rarely explain.
In my opinion, even in real life, when in a questionable situation a person says things that in general add to their own culpability, that is they are admitting to wrongdoing by themselves and their group, their words carry greater likelihood of being true. However, when a person is in a questionable situation (where they and their group are under question), and they make comments that alleviate or reduce their culpability, then it is somewhat less likely that they are being completely truthful. This is in particular true of Lupin, because we already have been shown numerous instances where Lupin was very willing to bend the truth, conceal the truth, etc., even at grave risk to others, in order to keep the goodwill of another person.
Therefore, when Lupin makes comments that make his apparently bad actions or the actions of his friends look better we have to bear in mind that Lupin has a rather high likelihood of not being truthful. However, when Lupin admits to culpability, especially because he has a history of covering up culpability, it's more than likely that he's telling the truth.
The reason Lupin's comments about his being prefect are important is because, even if Lupin is wrong about the reasons he was made prefect, it means that Lupin sees the Marauders in the years prior to his being a prefect as being so bad that the staff made him prefect to help deal with them.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 14, 2008 3:46 pm (#263 of 2988)
you had earlier used the fact that Sectumsempra is "defensive" as evidence that Snape initiated confrontations. - Sorry about that. That was my fault then, because I certainly meant to say that the spell isn't inherently defensive. Was it a typo? I'll try to find the original post. Anyway sorry for the confusion.
I understand what you mean about Lupin, Wynnleaf and thanks for explaining that. I agree and have a tendency to do the same thing. But I also try (not always successfully) to hold the view that, because we have so little to go on in terms of developing a full picture of the secondary characters, we really can't discount anything any one of them says about each other, even if we don't entirely agree with or especially like the character.
mona amon - Aug 14, 2008 7:48 pm (#264 of 2988)
Edited Aug 14, 2008 9:05 pm
"What's Potter got to do with anything?" said Lily.
Lily doesn't think Potter is relevant, and Snape doesn't cite himself being bullied as a reason she should be concerned about Potter. And if they were bullying Snape, she should know about it anyway. But why is Snape obsessed with Potter? (Mrs. Brisbee)
But doesn't think Potter relevant to what? From Lily's POV, Potter is not at all relevant to the topic they are discussing, whatever he may have done. She wants to talk about how horrible Avery and Mulciber are, she does not want to talk about James. So no doubt she feels annoyed when Snape keeps saying 'Potter! Potter!' everytime she tries to point out the error of his ways.
I'm sure Snape never discussed the bullying with the girl whose admiration he was trying to win. Getting bullied is so uncool, one of the reasons why such a lot of bullying goes completely unreported. And if she saw anything, she probably thought it was no big deal. She seems to find what they did to Snape in the Worst Memory quite amusing.
"I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think."
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
So right there Snape gives us his motive for his obsession with the Marauders, and particularly James: Lily.
I agree that rivalry over Lily was a very important factor in Snape's hatred of James (and vice versa), but this does not prove that he did not have other reasons for being obsessed with the Marauders.
I hear it bandied about on various threads that the Marauders picked on Snape relentlessly from day one,...
They did pick on him from day one, there's proof for that, but we do not know how frequent the attacks were. I feel they couldn't have been all that frequent because
1) They were in different houses
2) They had to catch Snape when he was alone
3) Snape would mostly be wary of attack and keep himself from trouble.
That's not really what I'm saying though. I'm just saying that I don't think that every confrontation was started by James/Sirius; that Snape started his share of them even though he may not have been the first to whip out his wand. (Quinn)
I think it is quite realistic to suppose that Snape may have started an attack if he thought he could win, say one of those rare occasions when he found James or Sirius alone. Most of the time he would not, because it's plain stupid to start a fight (by pushing their buttons or whatever) when you are outnumbered four to one. All the evidence (and I'm even including what Lupin says as evidence) we have seems to show that Snape did not have equal culpability with the Marauders in this enemity.
wynnleaf - Aug 14, 2008 8:33 pm (#265 of 2988)
They had to catch Snape when he was alone
Snape would mostly be wary of attack and keep himself from trouble.
Later in their school years, the Marauders invented the Marauder's Map. I don't think we know what year they were in when they made it, but it would have definitely given them an advantage anytime they wanted to plan an attack or prank on anyone, because it would be so easy to track other people and catch them alone. At whatever point the Marauders were attacking Snape, the Map would have given them a huge advantage, in addition to have a group of four compared to Snape alone.
Dryleaves - Aug 15, 2008 12:02 am (#266 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 1:03 am
I think they call him Snivellus because "snivel" means "to speak or act in a whining, sniffling, tearful, or weakly emotional manner". In other words, they think he's a wuss. (Quinn)
On the Hogwarts Express something happens that results in James and Sirius calling Snape "Snivellus", trying to trip him and not Snape and Sirius calling James "Four-eyes" trying to trip him. "Snivellus" has nothing to with Snape snivelling, because I cannot see he does, but because he is the loser of the interaction and probably this name is what Sirius can come up with at the moment, something that is derogatory and sounds a bit like Severus. I do not think Snape can be blamed for losing the interaction. In the worst memory scene they have not forgotten about this name and have even familiarized it into "Snivelly", and that might indicate that they have continued to pick on him from that first encounter and on, but I agree with Mona that it may not have been that frequent.
I think it is quite realistic to suppose that Snape may have started an attack if he thought he could win, say one of those rare occasions when he found James or Sirius alone...All the evidence (and I'm even including what Lupin says as evidence) we have seems to show that Snape did not have equal culpability with the Marauders in this enemity. (Mona)
I agree with this. Not equal culpability but not equal in number or "power" either. Even if it is James and Sirius that seem to be the active ones the other two Marauders seem to do nothing to stop it. Snape's flaw is that he is very soon to use an advantage if he gets one to get back at the Marauders, even twenty years later in the kitchen of Number 12 Grimmauld Place, for example. But this does not mean he was an all equal combatant all along.
Great point about the Marauders' Map, BTW, Wynnleaf.
wynnleaf - Aug 15, 2008 5:33 am (#267 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 6:34 am
I don't, by the way, mean to say that I actually think that Snape never, ever instigated an attack on James or Sirius or any of them. Yes, it is certainly possible that, if he found one of them alone or for some reason thought he had an advantage, he might have tried to get back at them through an attack. He's a pretty brave person, after all, and wouldn't just take their attacks without doing anything if it were possible to get back at one of them.
BUT, there is no specific evidence that he ever did instigate any attacks. No detention records, no one recalling any particular incident, no mention of it by Lily or the Marauders, no mention of it by Snape or anyone else.
Further, we never see or hear of Snape having a group of friends that he gets into fights with -- that is, no mention of a crowd that join him in fighting with other kids. And in the Worst Memory scene no Slytherin friend comes to his aid. And Snape himself speaks of confrontations with the Marauders as though he was always alone. It is in part because he was apparently always alone in confrontations with them that I doubt that many of the fights were instigated by Snape. James and Sirius seem to have been together a great deal. It would probably be hard to catch one of them alone.
As for the frequency, Sirius and Lupin assert that Snape was a "special case" for James. Yet James was in a good deal of trouble frequently according to McGonagall, detention records, and Lupin's thought that he was made prefect to help control the Marauders, etc. So if James was in trouble a good deal anyway, how would a kid prone to rulebreaking and trouble making be acting toward what he'd think of as a "special case"? Probably going after Snape a good deal, I'd think.
Julia H. - Aug 15, 2008 9:46 am (#268 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 10:50 am
In the worst memory scene they have not forgotten about this name and have even familiarized it into "Snivelly", and that might indicate that they have continued to pick on him from that first encounter and on, but I agree with Mona that it may not have been that frequent. Dryleaves
Great observation, Dryleaves! The continuity of the degrading name five years later suggests the continuity of the enmity, perhaps even the attacks, in the intervening time and certainly before the Prank. It is probable that in the earlier years the attacks were not as serious as the ones in the fifth year and afterwards, since the boys did not know magic so well yet. Since "The Prince's Tale" is not about the enmity between Snape and James in the first place but about Snape's own bad choices, his return, his loyalty and DD's message to Harry, I do not find it surprising that JKR / Snape did not include more instances of tripping or fighting before the fifth year.
I do not agree with the idea that the evidence for the first tripping and the evidence of the Worst Memory is not meant to describe the general relationship between the two boys during their school years. I don't think that, from a literary standpoint, they are "isolated incidents". To start with, it would make no sense to include the meeting on the train in the books at all if it had no relevance with regard to the rest of the story. And the only kind of relevance I can think of is that this was the moment when the enmity started and got its basic tone.
As Pesky, too, mentioned, in the Worst Memory Scene, Snape reacts as if he had expected the attack - this suggests that this is by no means the first attack. Mona has a good point when she says Snape may not want to tell Lily about the bullying (he is already called "Snivellus" so he may not want to seemingly justify this nickname by complaining). This makes his anger at Lily in the Worst Memory Scene more understandable: he does not want her in the first place to see him being bullied and even less does he want to be rescued by her ("I don't need help...").
I don't think we are meant to think that Snape never instigated an attack on the Marauders but I do think the scenes we get indicate that James and Sirius are more responsible for the starting of the enmity in general and for setting the tone for the enmity and, most of all, for starting physical violence. Once the physical violence is established between them, I find it totally possible that Snape started some of the attacks or - being alone against four - did other things to stop them bullying him (e.g., inventing spells that would level out the difference in number between them a bit). I think Lupin's comment about Snape always hexing James refers to the seventh year, when James and Lily are going out together, but at least to the period after the Worst Memory Scene because that is the time they are talking about. But not even Lupin says that Snape ever gang-attacked James or Sirius - and attacking in a gang is another typical aspect of bullying. However, Snape does mention the four-on-one thing and we see it happen in the Worst Memory. Besides, in the chapter "The Sacking of Severus Snape", we see how good Snape is at defending himself against several attackers at the same time. I always thought that this scene indirectly refers to the four-on-one experiences of the student Snape in the same place.
The way I see it is that the enmity starts on the train with a verbal exchange. If they stayed on this level, perhaps there would be no great problem. But James goes one step further and reacts to the verbal exchange by trying to trip Snape. This, I think, is an out-of-proportion reaction and puts the enmity on a new level.
Nobody in the books ever says that they think the Worst Memory is rightful punishment for Snape sneaking after the Marauders before the Prank. And why would it be? Sirius has already "punished" Snape for that by trying to feed him to a werewolf. IMO, attempted (even if indirect) murder is again a rather extreme reaction to someone trying to find out a secret. It is simply not in proportion. Then DD also decided on the punishment he thought reasonable (whatever it was), so further punishment is not justified and again, nobody in the books suggests that. So I think the cycle of enmity becomes a truly vicious one when the responses reach higher and higher levels of violence.
Besides, I do not agree with the notion that victims of bullying are the responsible ones for what happens to them - and I do think that being bullied by the Gryffindor guys strengthened Snape's ties to the Slytherin gang, who presumably did not bully him.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 15, 2008 10:39 am (#269 of 2988)
"Snivellus" is just an insulting nickname given to "Severus". It doesn't mean he actually snivels. I don't think we need to read any more into it than that.
BUT, there is no specific evidence that he ever did instigate any attacks - There is no specific evidence that he didn't, either. But we do have plenty of evidence of how he incites people. How is that not the same thing as "instigating an attack"?
I think by "special case" Lupin meant that James actually had strong personal feelings about Snape - he hated him - whereas all of the other "petty misdeeds" were not really personal toward any person involved. Also, at this point Harry still doesn't know that Snape and his mother had once been close. I have always wondered whether or not Lupin and Sirius knew that. Because why doesn't Lupin just say something like "Well, Snape and your mother were pretty close and that drove James crazy."
The lack of detention records about Snape can hardly count as a point of evidence that he never got into trouble when Snape, himself, personally selected the records being recopied.
While no one recalls any particular incident, Lupin does say, "Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James". While Lupin may be simply trying to appeal to Harry's sense of justice, this seems unlikely because just prior to that, both Sirius and Lupin express guilt and remorse over their behavior toward Snape during their school days. Lupin even says, "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape? Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?"
The comment comes right along with the "special case" remark.
"Oh, well, [James] always made a fool of himself whenever Lily was around." said Sirius, shrugging. "He couldn't stop himself showing off whenever he got near her."
"How come she married him?" Harry asked miserably. "She hated him!"
"Nah, she didn't," said Sirius.
"She started going out with him in seventh year," said Lupin.
"Once James had deflated his head a bit," said Sirius.
"And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it," said Lupin.
"Even Snape?" said Harry.
"Well", said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?" (OP ch. 29)
Lupin also says that "Sectumsempra was always a specialty of Snape's". While it remains unclear how Snape could have used this at school without any consequences (though, I think we've fanwanked enough adequate explanation for it), we do see Dolohov use a spell on Hermione in the Dept of Mysteries that looks suspiciously like the Sectumsempra. Dolohov was part of a team that included none other than Avery and Mulciber, Snape's old friends from school.
What's my point? Only that even if Snape didn't personally use the spell - or at least the full-powered version of it - while he was at school, it seems highly likely that he would have passed on the knowledge of the spell to his friends. In any case, he certainly got a reputation for being "up to his eyeballs in Dark Arts" somehow.
severusisn'tevil - Aug 15, 2008 10:40 am (#270 of 2988)
I'm baaack, Orion. Thanks very much for the email. I am touched.
Anyway, what I've always wondered is, Where the heck were the teachers all the times that Severus was getting jumped? I know he's not entirely a victim, believe me, but the Mauraders *did* start it, that's pretty well established. Then again, I'm a high school student myself. I know things happen that just don't get noticed, or why else would we have school shootings? Still.
The WM *punishment*? Huh??? Honestly, that's not something I'd (necessarily) wish on my worst enemy. Then again, and I contradict myself, if one speaks of the events *leading up to* the apex of the WM ("Mudblood!"), the Levicorpus, display of underwear, and so on, it *is* understandable.
I can't believe I, a more rabid Severus fan there does not exist, am saying this, but. . .whatever else the smaller and fatheaded versions of James, Remus and Sirius had wrong with them, they were fierce friends to one another, especially James. Therefore, could the events leading up the the apex be a warning of sorts? It carries James' cruel and unnecessary signature, but could it simply be a message of "You don't mess with my friends, and you certainly don't try to actually hurt them"?
Then again, the given reason for the start of the whole mess was Sirius's profession of "being bored." So maybe not.
The tiny unbiased part of me (and believe me, it's minute) also says that we all may be reading too much into this simply because we have a rather privileged view of the whole mess, i.e. inside Severus's head. We know what he's thinking and feeling, and we also know the significance of the events. For James, apart from the possible "warning" aspect of it, had no real idea that what was going on was anything more than just another brush with "Snivellus", not that I think that excuses his behavior. I find it rather nauseating that he took it that far and then tried to use the situation to blackmail a date out of Lily.
And speaking of which, he must, then, have known that she cared about him---Severus, I mean--- and enough to go up against the popular crowd to demand his release, which makes James' actions even more disgusting.
And no, I (unsurprisingly) don't see Severus as responsible for how James treats him, at least at first. I will concede he does not exactly help the situation.
I noticed something, though: Sirius says to Harry, in defense of James, which adds bias to start with that "Snape was a special case. He never missed an opportunity to curse James and you couldn't expect James to take that lying down." Is it just me, or does the defense he uses seem more relevant and proper for Severus? From the look of things, the M's never lost an opportunity to curse *Severus* and make *Severus's* life difficult. And no, Severus did not take it "lying down." Good for him. He was and remains a resourceful man with a vengeful streak.
On Severus's vengeful streak though, a short tangent. He is vengeful for himself personally as a boy, getting James back for all the junk James heaped on him to start with. But over time, his vengeance changes. He is vengeful toward LV on his own and *Lily's* behalf. The revenge becomes less completely about him, and partly about Lily. Maybe I'm just a sucker for characters like Severus, and Spike and V, and Edmond Dant`es, but it seems that kind of vengeance shows deep, deep loyalty.
OK, I've babbled enough. It's good to be back.
Orion - Aug 15, 2008 10:50 am (#271 of 2988)
"And no, I (unsurprisingly) don't see Severus as responsible for how James treats him, at least at first. I will concede he does not exactly help the situation." (severusisn'tevil)
Well, maybe it would have helped if he had chosen to keep his big fat mouth shut. I don't know. It is an option which can, in the worst possible case, be viewed as submissive behaviour, but it would have been quite sensible. Some people have such a psycho-glint in their eyes that you know "best get out of here quickly" and James is described as this kind of type. Snape is just very easily provoked. It also shows in his frequent encounters with Harry.
Great you're back, severusisn'tevil! Go and write an Epilogue, it's fun! Did you have computer trouble?
Quinn Crockett - Aug 15, 2008 11:07 am (#272 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 12:08 pm
On the "four against one" issue, I think we need to remember that, in Snape's mind, the Marauders are a single entity. So regardless of who is actually waving the wand - and from what we're shown, this was only ever James and/or Sirius - to Snape it's all four of them. Secondly, Lupin says, "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape? Did I ever have the guts to say you were out of order?" Lupin's guilt is not that he personally did anything to Snape, but that he never tried to keep his friends from doing anything. Even in the Worst Memory, Lupin is not actively participating in the event. Granted, he doesn't do anything to try to stop it either. But it supports his remorse being legitimately based on his inaction rather than his participation.
Then there is Pettigrew. He really seems to have been a non-factor in the whole experience.
wynnleaf - Aug 15, 2008 11:30 am (#273 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 12:33 pm
Lupin's guilt is not that he personally did anything to Snape, but that he never tried to keep his friends from doing anything. (Quinn)
After Lupin was made a prefect, he had both the authority and the duty to attempt to stop the other Marauders from wrongful behavior. Whenever he stood by and watched, he was giving tacit approval and, as a person with authority to stop it, that makes him extremely complicit. A person with authority to act giving tacit approval is very, very wrong. And it only made Snape's position worse because that meant the person who should have been there as a voice of authority calling a halt to a situation, or calling a teacher, willfully chose not to act.
Does Snape make the situation worse by his comments to James and Sirius?
Certainly James and Sirius react negatively to Snape's words and his defensive actions. But bullies generally don't stop just because the victim tries to placate them. In fact, many bullies only get worse because they like that sense of control. For instance, James acts as though it's Snape's cursing that causes him to use Scourgify on Snape, but that's just a typical bullying tactic, blaming the victim who attempts to resist for the actions of the bully who now "has to" punish the victim again for trying to resist. It's very similar, in my opinion, to James' threat to Lily to cease trying to stop him or she'll be "making him" hex her.
severusisn'tevil
I love your reference to Edmond Dantes, one of my all-time favorite literary characters. I'm not sure that Snape's actually after vengence as much as he is trying to protect a part of Lily (Harry). However, if vengence is a strong motivation for him, I don't think it's anywhere nearly so much as Dantes.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 15, 2008 11:49 am (#274 of 2988)
Whenever he stood by and watched, he was giving tacit approval and, as a person with authority to stop it, that makes him extremely complicit - Whether he had the "authority" to put an end to it or not is irrelevant. That he stood by and did nothing is what made him complicit.
Interesting that I have seen this very argument - that he merely stood by and didn't actually do anything - made for Snape's lack of culpability with regard to Mary MacDonald, and even his Death Eater days.
Dryleaves - Aug 15, 2008 11:57 am (#275 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Quinn, I agree with you that it probably is James and Sirius who are the ones who actively attack Snape, but I do not find it exaggerated or untrue when Snape speaks of four against one. At least in the Worst Memory scene Lupin is not participating, but he does not intervene either (just as you say). Pettigrew, I feel, is egging on, maybe not with words but with his behaviour. I get the impression that the Marauders stick together most of the time and Lupin and Pettigrew support James and Sirius, but not Snape. Lupin and Pettigrew are more than just a part of the crowd, and I think therefore Snape later in life cannot believe anything else about Lupin than that he must be supporting his old friend Sirius. That is not correct then, of course, but Snape cannot tell them apart because they acted as a unity, even if all four did not act in the same way. Literally Lupin and Pettigrew may not actively bully Snape, but in essence they do, because they seem to be there, backing up James and Sirius. Therefore I do not find it strange if Snape regards all the Marauders as having the same purpose, and I do not think he is entirely mistaken when he says they were four against one.
Crossposted with Wynnleaf and Quinn
Last edited by Mona on Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Mona- Hufflepuff Prefect
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severusisn'tevil - Aug 15, 2008 12:14 pm (#276 of 2988)
Computer trouble of a sort. My main computer is not connected to the net, so I have to find my way to the Forum at friends' houses, school, etc. Which means visits during summer vaction are few and far between.
I agree, Dryleaves. All four M's, even Remus was culpable in the treatment of Severus. What I sort of wonder at times, though is Why did Remus change somewhat toward Severus as an adult and Sirius not?
wynnleaf - Aug 15, 2008 3:23 pm (#277 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 4:28 pm
Whether he had the "authority" to put an end to it or not is irrelevant. That he stood by and did nothing is what made him complicit. (Quinn)
While I agree that anytime someone stands by and does nothing while wrong is being committed they are some way complicit, it is not irrelevant that Lupin is a prefect. As a prefect, he had agreed to a particular duty to not only uphold rules himself, but to be an authority over others. The onus on him was far greater and his lack of response causes greater harm.
Here's an example. Suppose I decide to trespass on my neighbor's property and "borrow" their lawn equipment without permission. Now suppose another neighbor observes me doing this and says and does nothing. Is that wrong? Yes, the second neighbor could at least tell the "victim" that I have taken his stuff. But suppose the second neighbor is a policeman and he's out in his yard and he watches me go next door, take my neighbors things while no one is at home. And he doesn't say or do anything? Is this worse? Yes, it is. Because the policeman has the delegated responsibility to do something about wrongdoing that he observes, and because I know that the policeman sees me and doesn't appear to care about my actions, then it makes it seem like what I'm doing really isn't so bad, if even the neighborhood policeman doesn't comment on it.
As for Snape standing by while his friends pranked Mary MacDonald with a Dark Magic joke, yes it was wrong of him to give tacit approval, even if he wasn't actually there when it happened (we don't know), he apparently gave some sort of approval of the action toward his friends. As for anything he did as a Death Eater (while a real DE), of course that was quite wrong, even if it was watching atrocities, or even if it was only hearing about murders and torture while at DE gatherings - regardless, he was giving a kind of approval, even if he wasn't directly involved. Because he had a responsibility to, if not stop the actions himself, at least report the actions to the authorities, Snape became quite complicit in any DE actions he knew of which he did not in some way attempt to stop.
mona amon - Aug 15, 2008 7:27 pm (#278 of 2988)
In the worst memory scene they have not forgotten about this name and have even familiarized it into "Snivelly", and that might indicate that they have continued to pick on him from that first encounter and on,...(Dryleaves)
A very good point, Dryleaves. I can almost imagine now how the teasing continued after the train incident. The next time James and Sirius spot Snape, they call out 'Snivellus!' and Snape reacts negatively, and so it goes on, gradually increasing in severity as James begins to feel that this greasy-haired Slytherin oddball has no right to be friends with Lily.
"Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James".
This remark of Lupin's refers specifically to the period after the Worst Memory, after the enemity was already firmly established, so it cannot be counted as evidence that Snape had equal responsibilty in starting the feud. He is trying to explain to Harry, in response to a specific question from him, why James continued to hex Snape even after he had stopped hexing everyone else. He does not offer it as an excuse for earlier bullying.
On the "four against one" issue, I think we need to remember that, in Snape's mind, the Marauders are a single entity. So regardless of who is actually waving the wand - and from what we're shown, this was only ever James and/or Sirius - to Snape it's all four of them.
If Snape thought of the Marauders as a single entity, and one of them attacked him, OK, he'd think 'I'm being attacked by a Marauder'. I feel it's a real stretch to imagine that, if he was attacked by James alone, for instance, he'd think he was being attacked by a gang of four just because he thought of the Marauders as a single entity! BTW, we are never shown 'James or Sirius'. It's always 'James and Sirius'.
In a gang attack, it's the number of people in the gang (who are present at that time) that's important, not the number of people who are doing the actual bullying.
Interesting that I have seen this very argument - that he merely stood by and didn't actually do anything - made for Snape's lack of culpability with regard to Mary MacDonald, and even his Death Eater days. (Quinn)
Snape wasn't there when Mulciber did whatever it was that he did to Mary Macdonald. D'you know what he tried to do to Mary Macdonald the other day? Lily is not accusing Snape of participating in the attack. She's asking whether he heard about it. As for his DE days, as Wynnleaf points out, he is definitely culpable, even the most ardent Snape fan will admit that.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 15, 2008 8:02 pm (#279 of 2988)
Actually, we don't know that Snape wasn't there when Mulciber attacked Mary McD. People assume that because of what Lily says, but we really don't know whether Snape was there or not. He seems to know all about it, though - enough to even have the opinion that it "was only a laugh". So, my opinion is that he was there.
If Snape thought of the Marauders as a single entity, and one of them attacked him, OK, he'd think 'I'm being attacked by a Marauder'. - I actually didn't mean to imply that Snape thought that at the time of the confrontations. But years later, as an adult (sort of), that is how he remembers the confrontations - "always four to one" - even though it seems to have been only James or Sirius who did the actual wand waving.
mona amon - Aug 15, 2008 9:25 pm (#280 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 10:28 pm
I don't think it is only an asumption, Quinn. If Snape was there, Lily would have heard about it, Mary being her friend. And then she would have accused Snape of participating, or at least standing by and watching. And knowing he was there, she would not have had to ask him if he knew about it.
Snape would have known what happened if Mulciber or someone else who was present had told him about it. I don't think that, because Snape's friend Mulciber played a dark magic prank on someone, it automatically follows that Snape was present when it happened.
"always four to one"
I feel the adult Snape remembers it that way because that's exactly what happened. As I said earlier, it's the number of people in the gang, present at the time of the attack, that matters, not the number of people who are doing the actual attacking. In the Worst Memory we see only James and Sirius doing the actual attacking, I assume that they were good enough at fighting to be able to take on a lone Snape together, without needing help from the others. But the others were there, ready to step in if necessary.
Anyway, you are trying to prove that the Marauders attacked him two on one and not four on one. Does it matter? To me, there may be a slight difference in the degree of cowardliness, but not much.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 15, 2008 10:27 pm (#281 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 11:29 pm
No, Mona. My contention is that people seem have this incredibly elevated image of Snape and want to depict him as this wretched, innocent victim who never bothered anyone, never opened his mouth or raised his wand except in self-defense, and who was inexplicably targeted on practically a daily basis by the wicked James and evil Sirius.
That certainly fits the persona Quirrell presented. But it does not remotely coincide with the Snape who would say to a 14-year-old girl, "I see no difference" regarding her jinxed teeth or who would instruct a 12-year-old student how to conjure a snake for the purpose of attacking another 12-year-old student.
Anyway, I'm afraid I just don't agree that Snape's memory of "who was present" during any "attack" was accurate.
Dryleaves - Aug 16, 2008 1:16 am (#282 of 2988)
My contention is that people seem have this incredibly elevated image of Snape and want to depict him as this wretched, innocent victim who never bothered anyone, never opened his mouth or raised his wand except in self-defense, and who was inexplicably targeted on practically a daily basis by the wicked James and evil Sirius. (Quinn)
And you seem to have the opposite view... And that is OK, of course.
I think it makes perfectly sense that bullying teacher Snape was bullied as a teenager just because of his mere existence. I think it perfectly coincides with a grown man doing something as horrible and pathetic as saying things like "I see no difference" about a 14-year-old girl's jinxed teeth. The fact that he was bullied does not make him an all innocent person or make his later actions excusable at all, but I do not think the bullied and the bully are incompatible.
For all the fun a little debate can give you I sometimes think we tend to get too polarized on this thread and miss the nuances of the character.
wynnleaf - Aug 16, 2008 5:06 am (#283 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 6:12 am
My contention is that people seem have this incredibly elevated image of Snape and want to depict him as this wretched, innocent victim who never bothered anyone, never opened his mouth or raised his wand except in self-defense, and who was inexplicably targeted on practically a daily basis by the wicked James and evil Sirius. (Quinn)
I do think it would be out of character for Snape to have never attempted to get back at the Marauders. Obviously, he did try to get at them by trying to find something that would get them expelled. But the fact is that we are never actually shown that he initiated attacks on them. So while we know that James and Sirius initiated attacks, we don't know this about Snape. We do know that when attacked he fought back with everything he had.
Is this incompatible with Snape being verbally abusive toward students later? No, I don't think so at all. Whether or not you think that verbal abuse is as bad, worse, or not as bad as physical bullying, it doesn't matter. They aren't the same regardless of whether the effects are as bad, not as bad, or whatever. And many, many people are verbally aggressive without ever being physically aggressive, so it's not at all incompatible that adult Snape would be verbally aggressive, while young Snape never initiated physical confrontations with the Marauders.
By the way, on the "I see no difference" remark, there are actually two ways of interpreting what Snape said. In the scene, Snape arrives on the scene of a fight and Draco points out that Potter attacked and that Goyle had gotten hexed and asks Snape to look. Snape looks over Goyle and sends him to the hospital wing. Then Ron says that Draco got Hermione and demands Snape look. Snape looks and says, "I see no difference." And Hermione gets really upset and runs for the hospital wing as well.
Of course, the automatic assumption is that Snape -- with his yellowed, very crooked teeth which he apparently cares nothing about -- is aware that Hermione, daughter of dentists with probably pristine white teeth, is terribly self-conscious of her slightly larger front teeth, and makes this remark to basically imply "I see no difference. Aren't your teeth usually awful looking?" But instead, it could just as easily be that what Snape is referring to is exactly what Ron is pointing out. Hermione got hexed as well as Goyle. And Snape could basically be saying, "I see no difference in what Draco did to Hermione as what Potter did to Goyle." He may have been thinking that Harry attacked Draco and Goyle and therefore Draco fired back in defense with a hex to match Harry's. In other words, Hermione having been hexed doesn't change the situation. Draco defended himself with the same degree of hex that he'd been fired at by Harry. His action wasn't considered anything more than justly warranted self-defense, and that's why Snape chose to not punish Draco.
Of course, that's not in fact what happened. Harry did not attack Draco first. Draco challenged Harry and they both attacked at the same time, and were therefore equally culpable. But Snape chooses to believe Draco's version that Harry attacked him. While completely unfair, I can see that Snape's seeing Harry as a mini-James would affect him here as well. Snape would find it easy to assume that Harry would be instigating attacks on other students, so Snape would automatically believe Draco.
So in the end, Harry and Ron get punished, but not Draco.
By the way, while Snape is making his remark about Hermione's being hexed, Pansy and other Slytherin girls are behind Snape's back silently giggling and pointing at Hermione. Why are they keeping their giggles silent? Why are they staying behind Snape's back to point? Because they know that their giggling and pointing would be unacceptable to Snape -- certainly they don't care that students see them giggling and pointing. Which is interesting that even as Snape says "I see no difference" his Slytherin students don't want him to know they are giggling and pointing at Hermione.
Later in the same class, Draco turns his back on Snape to show Harry the Potter Stinks badge, once again implying that Draco doesn't want Snape to see him doing this.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 16, 2008 9:31 am (#284 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 10:45 am
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. In this scene, Hermione's teeth, by the time Snape arrives, "had grown well past her collar" (GF ch. 18). There could be no mistaking her condition, even from a greasy-haired malcontent like Snape. He was insulting her, straight up - and for no reason other than she was Harry's friend.
But instead of just seeing the situation for what it is, we have this verbally acrobatic attempt to come up with an "explanation" that keeps the halo over Snape's head. What's up with that?
The giggling behind Snape's back means absolutely nothing. Even though Snape is often barely as mature as his own students, he's still a teacher.
We know that James and Sirius initiated ONE attack: the Worst Memory. That's it. There is nothing else in the text to clearly indicate that James and Sirius attacked Snape other than that one occasion. Sure, they called him "Snivellus" and even "Snivelly". And somehow Sirius convinced Snape to go down the willow tunnel. Undoubtedly, as with Harry and Draco, there was an almost daily exchange of verbal sparring and the trading of insults. But that doesn't mean that every time they ran across Snape they used their wands on him.
And Snape's "verbal aggression" was not born out of his school experience. Even at his first meeting with the Evans sisters, he is "verbally aggressive" toward Petunia. ("Wouldn't spy on you anyway. You're a Muggle.") Though "Tuney" has no idea of the meaning of the word, she knows an insult when she hears it. He later drops a tree branch on her. True, this was accidental magic and not really in his control. But, it shows that his immediate, emotional reaction to a person he doesn't like is a very violent and "aggressive" one.
On the train, Snape makes his "brawn over brains" remark. True, James has expressed a desire to leave school rather than be placed in Slytherin, but James hasn't actually done or said anything to Snape specifically, at this point.
James has been compared to Draco (with Harry being put in the Snape role). Harry and Draco do a LOT of bickering. But the times they actually draw wands against each other can be counted on one hand. Even at the Quidditch World Cup, when the trio stumble upon Draco in the forest, all Draco does is offer up a snarky warning to protect Hermione, the Muggle-born. There were no adults around, no ministry officials; and the place was teeming with magic. Draco could easily have jinxed any one or all of the trio before they would even have known Draco was there. But all he does is the same old "You'll be sorry, Potter" schtick.
Harry and Draco almost never come to actual blows, despite their almost daily routine of trading insults. I don't think it was any different for James and Snape until their 5th year - the year of the prank and the worst memory. Then we know that there was hexing going on on both sides.
wynnleaf - Aug 16, 2008 10:24 am (#285 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 11:32 am
Hah!
I been waiting for you to respond, Quinn! 'Cause I knew that would really get to you. Sorry, I just couldn't help it. No seriously, I think the first reading that most of us have on the GOF teeth scene is probably the way it's supposed to be read - that Snape is intentionally telling Hermione, more-or-less, "you're teeth were so big on their own, that how can I tell any difference after a hex?"
But the alternative reading has been suggested by others and actually it can fit and actually makes a bit more sense, because
1. it more directly actually answers what Ron is saying ( look, Draco hurt Hermione really bad, too!),
2. it's hard to see that Snape with the oh-so-horrible teeth would have paid any attention to Hermione's lovely white, even, but slightly larger teeth - which he'd have to have known she was sensitive about it, because supposedly his remark is calculated to hurt. Of course, you could say that Snape just said it assuming that anyone would be hurt by such a comment, but no, they wouldn't. Someone with just regular teeth, who wasn't sensitive about their size, would get hexed with these huge walrus size teeth and Snape's remark would just seem wierd like "what's he on about?" So Snape had to have noticed Hermione's normally largish teeth and already surmised that she was sensitive about them. For the reader, who already knows that Hermione is sensitive about her teeth, the remark seems calculated to hurt.
3. the Slytherin kids hiding their nastiness behind Snape's back does tell us that they don't think even this teacher would want to see them doing that.
And Snape's "verbal aggression" was not born out of his school experience. (Quinn)
Probably that's true. Snape grew up with a possible verbally abusive parent, possibly even both since he comments on them both arguing a lot. So it's more likely that he learned verbal aggression in his own home.
Harry and Draco do a LOT of bickering. But the times they actually draw wands against each other can be counted on one hand. (Quinn)
While I think there are a lot of parallels between Snape and Harry, I don't think that the Harry and Draco rivalry is the same as the Snape and James one. However, I must say that the occasions that Harry and Draco fight, it's often much, much more serious than anything we hear about between Snape and James and the Marauders. At the end of GOF and OOTP, Harry and his friends hex and jinx Draco and his friends into unconsciousness. In the GOF instance, the only provocation is Draco being insulting, while the OOTP provocation is Draco actually setting out to attack Harry. But the extreme degree of the hexing, which leaves Draco and his friends unconscious for many hours, is pretty bad. And then there's Draco's breaking Harry's nose in HBP. And Harry and Draco fighting in HBP with Sectumsempra and crucio. So I'd say that it's really pretty serious stuff.
But as for the Marauders, or James and Sirius, against Snape, I'd have to include the first instance where James trips Snape - they're only 11 and only just met, so it's significant. Then there's Sirius' attempts to send Snape into the jaws of a werewolf - whether he wanted him bitten or dead doesn't matter, it was Sirius' plan to get Snape into harms way. And James and Sirius attacking Snape. So that's three times specifically mentioned, without any mention of a time Snape initiates an attack on them.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 16, 2008 3:48 pm (#286 of 2988)
Oh no! I'm predictable and easily baited! I admit you got me good with that one, Wynnleaf Well played!
PeskyPixie - Aug 16, 2008 4:28 pm (#287 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 5:29 pm
Do you know what I find ridiculous? The fact that Petunia and James are both nasty to Snape first and then when he retaliates we fault him for being a horrid little boy. I mean, come on, we find ways to excuse James ('he's establishing a hierarchy, it's natural behaviour') and Petunia for their bad behaviour and blame the entire incidents on Snape? Snape has his issues, but in the examples we are given it seems that he needs to be provoked into an argument/fight and he will then defend himself. Granted, he is not nice when provoked; he can be downright nasty. However, perhaps that's just one more reason to leave him alone. If you poke an unknown critter with a stick, it may just bite you on the nose.
As for staying quiet when James does his song and dance about Gryffindor Power, I was the type of kid who would not have answered, so I was living through Snape's brainy vs. brawny bit! But then Sirius gets the last word.
As for 'Snivelly', my very point was that there is no deeper reason for the name. They called him 'Snivellus' on the first day they met him because it's an insulting name which sort of goes with Severus and the fact that they call him this on the day of the Prank indicates that name-calling and whatnot have been going on for five years, unless of course they suddenly remembered the name that day after a five year hiatus during which they hadn't set eyes or wands on each other.
Also, please note that I am in no way saying that Snape is an innocent little wretch who only ever used spells defensively. Once the enmity was formed he probably tried to zap James whenever he got the occasion (though I don't feel that he's the name-calling type during that stage of his life), however, the enmity is provoked by James. There is no way around that unless we blame Snape for responding to James' rude remarks aboard the Hogwarts Express, and personally, I tend to make it a rule to never accuse someone of provoking bullying. And yes, James is a bully as an eleven-year old.
mona, I'm really behind on posts, but I'm not used to the idea of boys wrestling girls to show their affection either. Thus, I didn't see the "don't make me hex you, Evans," bit as endearing.
wynnleaf - Aug 16, 2008 5:12 pm (#288 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 6:12 pm
I admit you got me good with that one, Wynnleaf (Quinn)
I'd seen that theory around the fandom in the past and, while I doubt it would be what JKR intended, it was still a pretty good theory and made a certain kind of sense, as I outlined previously, although I don't think it's really what JKR meant. Anyway, I'm glad you don't mind being had.
Pesky, I agree about how young Snape, even 9 year old Snape who was Lily's age with Petunia being somewhat older, somehow gets all the blame from some readers for his initial interactions with Petunia and James, even though they are the ones that start acting rude or mean first.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 16, 2008 7:49 pm (#289 of 2988)
Well, not to play devil's advocate or anything, but Snape does call Lily a witch. And even though he isn't really calling her a witch in the sense that the Evans sisters know, the girls don't know this. Plus he admits that he's been spying on them, which seems to be the greater offense. So, Petunia's behavior is in response to this, even though she isn't very nice.
Snape tells Lily on the train, "You better be in Slytherin" - as if she has any control over it. He doesn't say, "I hope we're both in the same House" or even "I hope you're in Slytherin too". James could - in his mind -partly be trying to stick up for Lily. (*shrug*)
Anyway, I see what you mean, Pesky. But I think people are just responding to Snape's overall manner. Even as a child, he's a greasy, sarcastic malcontent who wears funny clothes and takes himself far too seriously. His personality is the polar opposite of friendly and is actually quite hostile and defensive even before anyone ever says a word to him.
He seems to think so highly of himself that he'd rather be completely alone, without any friends to speak of, than alter his personality even slightly to maybe get a few people to like him. Lily seems to be the only exception in that he actually does seem to care what she thinks. That is, until it comes to becoming a Death Eater, about which he turns a deaf ear.
severusisn'tevil - Aug 16, 2008 10:42 pm (#290 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 11:47 pm
"He seems to think so highly of himself at he'd rather be completely alone, without any friends to speak of, than alter his personality even slightly to maybe get a few people to like him." (QC).
I really don't think so. He has walls for self-defense, even as a nine-year-old, which I personally can identify with easily. It isn't that Severus does not want friends, exactly, but he just doesn't really *know* how to go about getting any. We can tell by the way he spies on Lily that he *is* interested in knowing someone his own age, and by his embarrassment at being caught that he cares what she thinks of him.
I repeat, he doesn't *want* to be alone, but get slammed enough times by people you trust, i.e. your parents, as seems to happen with Severus (it is not expressly stated that he is abused, but it is at least heavily implied that his home life is a far sight from happy and contented seeing as even Harry notices as Severus boards the train that Severus lacks "the air of being well cared-for, even adored", but I digress) and you'll start to *tell* yourself that's what you want. You'll start getting used to being alone. It's safer: You're lonely, but at least no one can get around your wall and hurt you or cause you pain.
That isolation also becomes part of your identity. The idea of relinquishing your solitude without good reason will seem utterly mad. Why give up your safety for people who may or may not become a friend and thereby give them an opportunity to burn you again? And besides, if you give it up, you lose a part of yourself.
And why should you change yourself to ingratiate yourself with others? I think at least some of his unpopularity is that (as I've learned from experience) is that teens and preteens are just downright cruel and intolerant at times. The same instinct in adolescents that causes them to mock an eleven-year-old girl who chooses to sport a Padawan braid and read for fun causes them to laugh at an isolated wizard boy of the same age who has messy clothes and parents who are indifferent at best. Adolescents as a group can just be so shallow. I apologize if I sound bitter, but I've heard the 'modify your behavior to curry favor and get them to like you' argument too many times for it to honestly hold much water. Why settle for friends who like you only because you pretend to be someone you're not? How would it be if every semi-hostile geek sold out to join the mainstream popular crowd? As they say in one of my favorite movies, "you wear a mask so long you forget who you were beneath it."
Personally, I don't see a fair measure of compassion and a certain ability to identify with isolation as halo-making, but that is just my opinion, and I force no one to share it. I do, in fact, expect this post to be shot full of holes as soon as its posted. So have at it. I'm stubborn as a mule.
Pesky, excellent point about Severus getting blamed for hostilities that are initiated by other people.
And it's interesting, Quinn, that you explain Petunia's reaction as "not very nice" when the feeling I get from your posts is that you're determined not to make such explanations, or at least that you are not overly interested in such explanations where Severus is concerned in the capacity of, as you put it "not being very nice." NO offense meant, it's just a paradox of sorts I notice.
severusisn'tevil
wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2008 5:55 am (#291 of 2988)
Edited Aug 17, 2008 7:00 am
So, Petunia's behavior is in response to this, even though she isn't very nice. (Quinn)
Sure, I can see that there's some miscommunication in the girls understanding what young Snape meant. Petunia thinks that young Severus is being insulting by calling Lily a witch and that he's wierd for saying he's a wizard. So she answers very rudely and, according to the narration, makes it plain that she thinks he comes from an undesirable part of town and is nothing.
So if Petunia gets the excuse of thinking Snape is being so rude, and she's just reacting to that, why doesn't young Snape get the same excuse? After all, Petunia really was being intentionally rude and Snape, like Petunia, is only responding to the rudeness he hears from her. And Petunia was older as well, which means that she was being rude to a younger kid, while Snape was standing up to rudeness from an older child.
Snape tells Lily on the train, "You better be in Slytherin" - as if she has any control over it. (Quinn)
Yes, that's an interesting observation. It makes it sound like Snape does think she might have some control over it, so perhaps Eileen has told him that you can ask the Hat for a particular House. So maybe Snape asked for Slytherin, since it was pretty clear that's where he wanted to be, yet it's also clear that he had huge potential for courage.
In that first meeting on the train, James didn't seem like he was saying anything to support Lily. He certainly doesn't say anything to indicate that and his attitude is more an anti-Slytherin focus rather than a focus on giving support to another kid.
Julia H. - Aug 17, 2008 9:48 am (#292 of 2988)
Edited Aug 17, 2008 11:07 am
It is nice to see you back, seveusisn'tevil!
I don't think anybody is suggesting that Snape is an innocent little angel. We understand that he "gave as good as he got" and that (after the Worst Memory at least) he never lost an opportunity to hex James and that he invented Sectumsempra. We also agree that, as a DE, later, he was culpable for watching any crimes without doing anything, yes. I think what several of us are saying (and it is certainly my opinion) is that the positive evidence we actually get from the books indicates that the Marauders (James and Sirius) are mainly responsible for the enmity and for the physical violence in the enmity. It does not mean Snape does not use physical violence against the Marauders but Snape's using physical violence as well does not change the fact that it is the Marauders who started the whole thing with the name-calling and the tripping. No, the Worst Memory is not the only case when the Marauders attack first: on the train it is James who tries to trip Snape and not vica versa. Can anyone tell me what the purpose of this scene in the book can be if it is not to indicate how the enmity started, if it has no relevance with regard to the rest of the story?
As I've been going through the recent posts, I saw the shift in emphasis: Quinn is saying some of us want to see Snape as completely innocent, with a "halo". However, that is not how this particular discussion started: It started because there was a suggestion implying that Snape was responsible for what happened to him in the Worst Memory, that he started it all with the Prank and James must have left him alone before that - practically saying that James is the innocent little angel who was forced to do something about Snape. And what else could the dear little boy do than gang-attack, disarm and publicly torture and humiliate his enemy? But no, we do have the train incident and the continuity of the "Snivellus" name over five years. On the train, James tries to trip Snape as the word "Snivellus" is pronounced. Five years later, James uses the name as he is torturing Snape. Since this is a novel, not real life, we can conclude that the name and the accompanying violence connect the train scene with the Worst Memory Scene.
Besides, the original argument about Snape's starting the "new" enmity in the fifth year also implies that the Worst Memory was some kind of deserved retaliation but it sounds rather extreme: We do not get to see Snape start an attack but that is not the only thing we do not get to see. We never see him torture a disarmed enemy, we never see him gang-attack any of the Marauders, we never see him publicly strip anyone (or threaten to do so) - there is no mention about these things either. So it is hard to believe that Snape deserved what happened to him then or that the reader is intended to think that it was the Marauders' right to do all those things to him.
About "four on one": I think it is an important aspect because it underlies the bullying nature of the Marauders' behaviour. It was not James duelling with Snape to see who was better at it. No, they did not want to give a fair chance to their enemy. You know I don't think we have a reason to doubt Snape's words when he says "four-on-one" and not because he somehow imagined four Marauders when he saw only one. I think the Worst Memory Scene shows us how it may have happened: Sirius and James actively fighting and Lupin and Pettigrew being present as well. Now I think the presence of another two friends of the attackers psychologically, from the victim's point of view, may very well count as "four". Why? Because he never knows what those other two will do: Will they remain passive if Snape manages to disarm or to seriously hex both their friends? Or, as he is engaged in a fight with two (and two is more than one), will not Pettigrew direct a spell at his back? How can he know? I think if there are four of the Marauders, Snape will have to pay some attention to all four of them during a fight, which certainly makes his job more difficult.
This is exactly what happens in the "Sacking of Severus Snape" chapter: There are four attackers, of whom two are active, and the other two are behind their backs and may be ready to actively join the fight.
So maybe Snape asked for Slytherin, since it was pretty clear that's where he wanted to be, yet it's also clear that he had huge potential for courage. (Wynnleaf)
I guess, as a little boy, Snape did not realize his huge potential for courage or that his courage might have anything to do with Gryffindor expectations. He seems to associate Gryffindor with strong, athletic boys, quite unlike himself.
Petunia... the book is not handy right now: does not she run away when Snape appears? Does she hear it first when Snape calls Lily a witch? Later of course she hears Snape's explanation but then she also hears Snape say that there is nothing wrong with that and that he himself is a wizard. I don't think her verbal attack on Snape is due to any insult against her sister.
wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2008 10:47 am (#293 of 2988)
Edited Aug 17, 2008 11:47 am
While I generally agree with Julia's post, in fairness to Quinn, I don't think the argument was that James was always sweet and nice prior to the Worst Memory scene. But I did understand the argument to be that James didn't initiate attacks on Snape until the year of the Prank. At that time the Marauders became aware that Snape was sneaking around trying to get them expelled, and Snape's sneaking could have brought Lupin's secret to light. Therefore James, in his attacks after the Prank, was actually retaliating for Snape trying to get them expelled and almost revealing Lupin's secret.
What I disliked about this argument was that it's basically saying that the enmity wasn't much until Snape kind of forced the hand of the Marauders and they had to defend themselves from this guy trying to get them expelled, by attacking him. Of course, that kind of begs the question since Snape couldn't very well get them expelled if they weren't doing anything very wrong.
Still, JKR gave us the scene on the train for a reason. What was it for? The primary intent of that scene seems to be to show the reader how the enmity between James, Sirius, and Snape started, that it was over nothing more than House rivalry, and that James was the aggressor from the beginning, even to the extent of starting physical bullying. I can hardly think what other intent there would be in the scene, because we already knew they disliked each other. A big question from the fandom regarding their mutual dislike had always been what and who started it. Of course, JKR doesn't always answer everything readers want to know, but it seems to me that she was answering this question.
Ditto the Prank. She had told readers that they would learn more about the Prank. What more did we learn that we didn't already know? We learned that the possible serious consequences of the Prank was not what reformed James. We learned how Lily reacted to it. I recall that a number of posters on the Forum had thought we'd find out some way that Snape was to blame for the Prank. We didn't find out any more to Snape's blame than we ever had - that he was trying to find out something that would get Marauders expelled and he wanted to find out what Lupin was up to.
So if there were things in the backstory regarding the Prank, the confrontations between the Marauders, and other aspects of Snape's youth that made Snape look worse, JKR didn't seem to think they were worth telling us. Nor has she since elaborated on any more nastiness of Snape during interviews. To the contrary, she said Snape wouldn't have joined LV if he'd had it to do over, and she said that he joined the Death Eaters more from his insecurities than anything else - wanting to belong to something powerful and thinking Lily would think more of him for that. She could have told us how Snape was really into hurting other people, hated muggleborns, was into blood purity, and that's why he joined up. But she didn't say that.
So back to the train scene, JKR wrote that and included it for a reason. If that was a one-time isolated occurance and James never acted like that again for the next 5 years, what's the point in including the scene? And if James and the Marauder attacks on Snape were in retaliation for Snape persecuting them why didn't JKR say so? Instead, she has James give reasons like "because he exists," and Sirius saying because he was this "little oddball" and "up to his ears in dark magic".
Quinn Crockett - Aug 17, 2008 11:24 am (#294 of 2988)
Edited Aug 17, 2008 1:17 pm
And why should you change yourself to ingratiate yourself with others? - Because the world doesn't revolve around you and if you want to be a part of it, then you are the one who needs to change your behavior; the rest of the world certainly isn't going to adapt just for you. I mean, true, you certainly don't have to do anything to try to fit in. But then you don't really get to complain about isolation and loneliness. In other words, you can't isolate yourself by putting up huge emotional walls and then complain that nobody can (or really wants to) get in to see the "real you".
It's like going to a foreign country and expecting everyone to just speak your language, and then getting irked when no one is "willing" to accommodate you. Sure, there will always be someone who speaks your language and can therefore communicate with you and make you feel at ease - and you might even be lucky enough to run into one of those people early on in your trip. But it's just plain unrealistic to expect that to actually happen. You need to at least make the effort to try to be understood.
If you do choose not to try to fit in more (and I'm not suggesting anyone should suck up to the "cool" kids or try to be popular), then you need to be prepared to take some flak for it. I don't know what a "Patawan braid" is, but when I was in high school, I had blue hair and wore combat boots. And if you think I didn't get hassled about that, you're sorely mistaken.
the feeling I get from your posts is that you're determined not to make such explanations, or at least that you are not overly interested in such explanations where Severus is concerned in the capacity of, as you put it "not being very nice."
I'm sure that is how it seems to someone who so closely identifies with the character. But it's true that I'm not interested in excuses and I'm not going to jump on the "boo hoo poor little misunderstood Sev" bandwagon. He is responsible for his own behavior, for his own decisions; and as such needs to be prepared to accept the consequences. I don't buy the "he doesn't know what to do" excuse either, because clearly he values Lily's opinion. She does offer him guidance, but he chooses only to listen to what he wants to hear ("James Potter is an arrogant toerag").
As for the Petunia's initial response, a major detail of that exchange is that he was spying on them (and was not embarrassed about it). That's pretty suspicious behavior and is corroborated (in Petunia's mind) by the fact that he lives in a dodgy part of town. But even if she was a year or two older than Lily and Snape, so what? She's was still only a child herself and responds as a child, not as an adult or with an adult's mindset. As a sort of counterpoint, we have multiple incidents of Snape, who is an adult, still responding as he did when he was a child.
I do not count the almost trip as an "attack". I mean, if you're going to count trying to trip someone as an "attack" then you need to count all the verbal baiting Snape does as well. But I agree that JKR put it there to show the instant enmity between these characters and that it only escalated over the years.
there was a suggestion implying that Snape was responsible for what happened to him in the Worst Memory - Hm. That was not my take on it at all. I was the one who said that Snape was responsible for what happened to him in the prank (that he should never have listened to Sirius, should never have gone down the tunnel). But then there was a debate about whether or not anything really happened (other than name calling) prior to the prank, which happened some time before the Worst Memory.
Petunia... does not she run away when Snape appears? - Both girls do. And Lily says, "That's not a very nice thing to call someone."
James, in his attacks after the Prank, was actually retaliating for Snape trying to get them expelled and almost revealing Lupin's secret. - I just don't think James and Sirius showed Snape a whole lot of interest prior to this. They were very busy creating the Marauder's Map and learning how to be animagi. Plus James, at least would have had quidditch practice as well (when did they ever sleep?) to factor in. I think that, though they no doubt had near daily bouts of verbal sparring in the intervening years, that things didn't really start to get ugly with Snape until the prank.
wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2008 3:46 pm (#295 of 2988)
Edited Aug 17, 2008 4:51 pm
And why should you change yourself to ingratiate yourself with others? (Julia)
Because the world doesn't revolve around you and if you want to be a part of it, then you are the one who needs to change your behavior; the rest of the world certainly isn't going to adapt just for you. I mean, true, you certainly don't have to do anything to try to fit in. (Quinn)
There's a huge difference in adapting to fit in with the overall group norms or with a general culture (like a school culture). It's quite another to "adapt" to one or two specific other people who simply don't like you because you're "odd" or because you exist. What exactly is one supposed to change?
One of my children has been outright bullied occasionally and regularly kept out of the "popular" crowd. A couple of girls (these are 13 year olds) would give her the advice that everyone would like her if she'd only dress like everyone else, have the same interests in music, watch the same TV shows, etc. My daughter isn't some wierd person. Adults think she's a regular kid, even if she's not dressed exactly like the others or interested in the same things. The other little girls that assume that she'd be liked if she'd only conform are, in fact, probably wrong. I've seen this play out with kids over and over, girls and guys alike. In searching for some reasonable explanation to the kids being an outcast, people want to assume that the other kids do actually have a reasonable excuse for excluding or bullying the kid. While that is occasionally true, it's often simply not the case. And I think JKR makes this clear in the "because he exists" line from James or the "oddball" remark from Sirius and Lupin. It really isn't something specific about Snape as opposed to all other Slytherins. James was first antagonistic as soon as he heard the word "Slytherin" come out of Snape's mouth. Snape's particular personality didn't matter. It was just because he was Slytherin. But later, according to JKR, it was in part Snape's friendship with Lily that caused more rivalry. Once again, it wasn't Snape, but just Lily. But was it really any other that? Did James go after all Slytherins? No, we're told Snape was a special case. Did James go after every guy that liked Lily? We're told she was quite popular, yet once again, Snape's "special".
So was Snape supposed to give up Lily's friendship to placate James? Of course not. Was he supposed to stop being a Slytherin? Well, no, that's not possible. So what was he supposed to change? Oh, maybe he wasn't supposed to answer James back. Maybe "fitting in" in this case would be submitting to James. But even then, bullies often don't stop when the victim submits. They often keep right on, because deep down, it's just because the victim exists.
Steve Newton - Aug 17, 2008 5:06 pm (#296 of 2988)
Snape tells Lily on the train, "You better be in Slytherin" - as if she has any control over it. (Quinn)
It makes it sound like Snape does think she might have some control over it (Wynnleaf)
I think that it is clear from Harry's experience that they do have control over their house.
rassannassar - Aug 17, 2008 8:33 pm (#297 of 2988)
And I think it was Snape's very attitude about being in Slytherin that made him one of those that was so quick to be sorted. I think that's safe to assume because the exact wording from the book is:
Harry walked with him to the stool, watched him place the hat upon his head. "Slytherin!" cried the Sorting Hat.
If it hadn't been quick I'm sure that would have been made clear. His attitude was very much like Draco's in Madam Malkin's in the first book. It was very important to them to be in Slytherin and so they were in Slytherin. To James it was important to be in Gryffindor like his dad. Sirius, however, did not want to be in Slytherin because he wanted to be different from his family. All of them got their wishes. I think part of the reason that being in certain houses seems to run in families is because there is an expectation that they should belong to a certain house. While I think it is unlikely that any of them explicitly asked the Sorting Hat to put them somewhere in particular, it's probably safe to say that it saw within them that they had a desire to be in one house or another, or in Sirius's case, that they simply did not want to be in a certain house. Maybe that's why, as far as I can tell, Muggle-borns and other wizards who, like Harry, weren't raised with the knowledge of magic or Hogwarts are more difficult to Sort. Hermione said the Sorting Hat seriously considered putting her in Ravenclaw, but decided on Gryffindor. I think that it clearly saw her brilliance, and it saw her bravery, and saw that she didn't really have any expectation of being in one or the other, so when the decision fell to it and she was equally qualified for both houses, it needed to take more time to decide.
Now of course, this doesn't apply to everyone.
The general point I'm trying to make is that it seems that there is a degree of control to it. I think that wanting to be in a certain house, or having the expectation of being in a certain house, increases the likelihood of being in that house.
mona amon - Aug 17, 2008 9:44 pm (#298 of 2988)
Good points, rassannassar. There is a degree of control. But most of the kids do not seem to be aware of it.
Snape tells Lily on the train, "You better be in Slytherin" - as if she has any control over it. He doesn't say, "I hope we're both in the same House" or even "I hope you're in Slytherin too". James could - in his mind -partly be trying to stick up for Lily. (Quinn)
I've come across this phrase 'you'd better be...' or 'you'd better get...' or 'you'd better win...' quite often in my reading, used in a similar manner to the way Snape uses it. It's a playful way of saying 'I wish with all my heart that this will happen, so it had better happen.' I don't see how it can possibly be misinterpreted by James as a threat to Lily. If he had said, in a threatening sort of way, "you'd better ask the Sorting Hat to put you in Slytherin" that would have been a different matter.
Dryleaves - Aug 17, 2008 11:00 pm (#299 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 12:01 am
As for the Petunia's initial response, a major detail of that exchange is that he was spying on them (and was not embarrassed about it). That's pretty suspicious behavior and is corroborated (in Petunia's mind) by the fact that he lives in a dodgy part of town. But even if she was a year or two older than Lily and Snape, so what? She's was still only a child herself and responds as a child, not as an adult or with an adult's mindset. As a sort of counterpoint, we have multiple incidents of Snape, who is an adult, still responding as he did when he was a child. (Quinn)
I do not think I share your view of the severity of the spying Snape does in the playground scene. I am sure Petunia does not like it, but I do not know if a child "spying" on other children is to be regarded as "suspicious". It is not as if it is a grown-up person lurking in the bushes looking at the little girls playing. A reason why he is hiding may be that Lily maybe would not show her magical abilities when other kids than Petunia were around and he really wants to make sure that she in fact is a witch (this is just a suggestion). Another may be that he is waiting and preparing for the perfect moment to make contact and what he wants is to make friends with someone who he thinks is just like him.
And anyway, "spying" is not that unusual a game for kids of that age. At least I remember boys spying on me and my friends playing and we were of course full of indignation, but then we spied back.
Later of course both Snape and Petunia see each other as rivals and want poor Lily for themselves. Both Petunia and Snape are children by the time of the playground scene, and if we are to drag adult Snape into it then adult Petunia cannot be said to have changed that much of her childhood views and manners either.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 18, 2008 3:48 am (#300 of 2988)
Ooh, 55 posts since I was last able to post on this thread! I have read them all, but I knew there was a reason I usually couldn't participate in the Snape thread. I think I need to refocus my limited time elsewhere, and bow out of this discussion.
I just want to say though that I have reread the Worst Memory scene, Sirius's and Lupin's comments on it, Snape's dying memories, and some tidbits related to the situation, and I am very comfortable with my conclusions. I think the train scene established animosity between Snape, James and Sirius, but it wasn't until fifth year that things turned really ugly, and Snape's motive for trying to get the Marauders expelled was jealousy over Lily. I don't think I'll change anyone's mind on it, and without new evidence I can't see anyone changing mine, so time to go.
Now I'm off to catch up on the Read-A-Long thread....
Computer trouble of a sort. My main computer is not connected to the net, so I have to find my way to the Forum at friends' houses, school, etc. Which means visits during summer vaction are few and far between.
I agree, Dryleaves. All four M's, even Remus was culpable in the treatment of Severus. What I sort of wonder at times, though is Why did Remus change somewhat toward Severus as an adult and Sirius not?
wynnleaf - Aug 15, 2008 3:23 pm (#277 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 4:28 pm
Whether he had the "authority" to put an end to it or not is irrelevant. That he stood by and did nothing is what made him complicit. (Quinn)
While I agree that anytime someone stands by and does nothing while wrong is being committed they are some way complicit, it is not irrelevant that Lupin is a prefect. As a prefect, he had agreed to a particular duty to not only uphold rules himself, but to be an authority over others. The onus on him was far greater and his lack of response causes greater harm.
Here's an example. Suppose I decide to trespass on my neighbor's property and "borrow" their lawn equipment without permission. Now suppose another neighbor observes me doing this and says and does nothing. Is that wrong? Yes, the second neighbor could at least tell the "victim" that I have taken his stuff. But suppose the second neighbor is a policeman and he's out in his yard and he watches me go next door, take my neighbors things while no one is at home. And he doesn't say or do anything? Is this worse? Yes, it is. Because the policeman has the delegated responsibility to do something about wrongdoing that he observes, and because I know that the policeman sees me and doesn't appear to care about my actions, then it makes it seem like what I'm doing really isn't so bad, if even the neighborhood policeman doesn't comment on it.
As for Snape standing by while his friends pranked Mary MacDonald with a Dark Magic joke, yes it was wrong of him to give tacit approval, even if he wasn't actually there when it happened (we don't know), he apparently gave some sort of approval of the action toward his friends. As for anything he did as a Death Eater (while a real DE), of course that was quite wrong, even if it was watching atrocities, or even if it was only hearing about murders and torture while at DE gatherings - regardless, he was giving a kind of approval, even if he wasn't directly involved. Because he had a responsibility to, if not stop the actions himself, at least report the actions to the authorities, Snape became quite complicit in any DE actions he knew of which he did not in some way attempt to stop.
mona amon - Aug 15, 2008 7:27 pm (#278 of 2988)
In the worst memory scene they have not forgotten about this name and have even familiarized it into "Snivelly", and that might indicate that they have continued to pick on him from that first encounter and on,...(Dryleaves)
A very good point, Dryleaves. I can almost imagine now how the teasing continued after the train incident. The next time James and Sirius spot Snape, they call out 'Snivellus!' and Snape reacts negatively, and so it goes on, gradually increasing in severity as James begins to feel that this greasy-haired Slytherin oddball has no right to be friends with Lily.
"Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James".
This remark of Lupin's refers specifically to the period after the Worst Memory, after the enemity was already firmly established, so it cannot be counted as evidence that Snape had equal responsibilty in starting the feud. He is trying to explain to Harry, in response to a specific question from him, why James continued to hex Snape even after he had stopped hexing everyone else. He does not offer it as an excuse for earlier bullying.
On the "four against one" issue, I think we need to remember that, in Snape's mind, the Marauders are a single entity. So regardless of who is actually waving the wand - and from what we're shown, this was only ever James and/or Sirius - to Snape it's all four of them.
If Snape thought of the Marauders as a single entity, and one of them attacked him, OK, he'd think 'I'm being attacked by a Marauder'. I feel it's a real stretch to imagine that, if he was attacked by James alone, for instance, he'd think he was being attacked by a gang of four just because he thought of the Marauders as a single entity! BTW, we are never shown 'James or Sirius'. It's always 'James and Sirius'.
In a gang attack, it's the number of people in the gang (who are present at that time) that's important, not the number of people who are doing the actual bullying.
Interesting that I have seen this very argument - that he merely stood by and didn't actually do anything - made for Snape's lack of culpability with regard to Mary MacDonald, and even his Death Eater days. (Quinn)
Snape wasn't there when Mulciber did whatever it was that he did to Mary Macdonald. D'you know what he tried to do to Mary Macdonald the other day? Lily is not accusing Snape of participating in the attack. She's asking whether he heard about it. As for his DE days, as Wynnleaf points out, he is definitely culpable, even the most ardent Snape fan will admit that.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 15, 2008 8:02 pm (#279 of 2988)
Actually, we don't know that Snape wasn't there when Mulciber attacked Mary McD. People assume that because of what Lily says, but we really don't know whether Snape was there or not. He seems to know all about it, though - enough to even have the opinion that it "was only a laugh". So, my opinion is that he was there.
If Snape thought of the Marauders as a single entity, and one of them attacked him, OK, he'd think 'I'm being attacked by a Marauder'. - I actually didn't mean to imply that Snape thought that at the time of the confrontations. But years later, as an adult (sort of), that is how he remembers the confrontations - "always four to one" - even though it seems to have been only James or Sirius who did the actual wand waving.
mona amon - Aug 15, 2008 9:25 pm (#280 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 10:28 pm
I don't think it is only an asumption, Quinn. If Snape was there, Lily would have heard about it, Mary being her friend. And then she would have accused Snape of participating, or at least standing by and watching. And knowing he was there, she would not have had to ask him if he knew about it.
Snape would have known what happened if Mulciber or someone else who was present had told him about it. I don't think that, because Snape's friend Mulciber played a dark magic prank on someone, it automatically follows that Snape was present when it happened.
"always four to one"
I feel the adult Snape remembers it that way because that's exactly what happened. As I said earlier, it's the number of people in the gang, present at the time of the attack, that matters, not the number of people who are doing the actual attacking. In the Worst Memory we see only James and Sirius doing the actual attacking, I assume that they were good enough at fighting to be able to take on a lone Snape together, without needing help from the others. But the others were there, ready to step in if necessary.
Anyway, you are trying to prove that the Marauders attacked him two on one and not four on one. Does it matter? To me, there may be a slight difference in the degree of cowardliness, but not much.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 15, 2008 10:27 pm (#281 of 2988)
Edited Aug 15, 2008 11:29 pm
No, Mona. My contention is that people seem have this incredibly elevated image of Snape and want to depict him as this wretched, innocent victim who never bothered anyone, never opened his mouth or raised his wand except in self-defense, and who was inexplicably targeted on practically a daily basis by the wicked James and evil Sirius.
That certainly fits the persona Quirrell presented. But it does not remotely coincide with the Snape who would say to a 14-year-old girl, "I see no difference" regarding her jinxed teeth or who would instruct a 12-year-old student how to conjure a snake for the purpose of attacking another 12-year-old student.
Anyway, I'm afraid I just don't agree that Snape's memory of "who was present" during any "attack" was accurate.
Dryleaves - Aug 16, 2008 1:16 am (#282 of 2988)
My contention is that people seem have this incredibly elevated image of Snape and want to depict him as this wretched, innocent victim who never bothered anyone, never opened his mouth or raised his wand except in self-defense, and who was inexplicably targeted on practically a daily basis by the wicked James and evil Sirius. (Quinn)
And you seem to have the opposite view... And that is OK, of course.
I think it makes perfectly sense that bullying teacher Snape was bullied as a teenager just because of his mere existence. I think it perfectly coincides with a grown man doing something as horrible and pathetic as saying things like "I see no difference" about a 14-year-old girl's jinxed teeth. The fact that he was bullied does not make him an all innocent person or make his later actions excusable at all, but I do not think the bullied and the bully are incompatible.
For all the fun a little debate can give you I sometimes think we tend to get too polarized on this thread and miss the nuances of the character.
wynnleaf - Aug 16, 2008 5:06 am (#283 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 6:12 am
My contention is that people seem have this incredibly elevated image of Snape and want to depict him as this wretched, innocent victim who never bothered anyone, never opened his mouth or raised his wand except in self-defense, and who was inexplicably targeted on practically a daily basis by the wicked James and evil Sirius. (Quinn)
I do think it would be out of character for Snape to have never attempted to get back at the Marauders. Obviously, he did try to get at them by trying to find something that would get them expelled. But the fact is that we are never actually shown that he initiated attacks on them. So while we know that James and Sirius initiated attacks, we don't know this about Snape. We do know that when attacked he fought back with everything he had.
Is this incompatible with Snape being verbally abusive toward students later? No, I don't think so at all. Whether or not you think that verbal abuse is as bad, worse, or not as bad as physical bullying, it doesn't matter. They aren't the same regardless of whether the effects are as bad, not as bad, or whatever. And many, many people are verbally aggressive without ever being physically aggressive, so it's not at all incompatible that adult Snape would be verbally aggressive, while young Snape never initiated physical confrontations with the Marauders.
By the way, on the "I see no difference" remark, there are actually two ways of interpreting what Snape said. In the scene, Snape arrives on the scene of a fight and Draco points out that Potter attacked and that Goyle had gotten hexed and asks Snape to look. Snape looks over Goyle and sends him to the hospital wing. Then Ron says that Draco got Hermione and demands Snape look. Snape looks and says, "I see no difference." And Hermione gets really upset and runs for the hospital wing as well.
Of course, the automatic assumption is that Snape -- with his yellowed, very crooked teeth which he apparently cares nothing about -- is aware that Hermione, daughter of dentists with probably pristine white teeth, is terribly self-conscious of her slightly larger front teeth, and makes this remark to basically imply "I see no difference. Aren't your teeth usually awful looking?" But instead, it could just as easily be that what Snape is referring to is exactly what Ron is pointing out. Hermione got hexed as well as Goyle. And Snape could basically be saying, "I see no difference in what Draco did to Hermione as what Potter did to Goyle." He may have been thinking that Harry attacked Draco and Goyle and therefore Draco fired back in defense with a hex to match Harry's. In other words, Hermione having been hexed doesn't change the situation. Draco defended himself with the same degree of hex that he'd been fired at by Harry. His action wasn't considered anything more than justly warranted self-defense, and that's why Snape chose to not punish Draco.
Of course, that's not in fact what happened. Harry did not attack Draco first. Draco challenged Harry and they both attacked at the same time, and were therefore equally culpable. But Snape chooses to believe Draco's version that Harry attacked him. While completely unfair, I can see that Snape's seeing Harry as a mini-James would affect him here as well. Snape would find it easy to assume that Harry would be instigating attacks on other students, so Snape would automatically believe Draco.
So in the end, Harry and Ron get punished, but not Draco.
By the way, while Snape is making his remark about Hermione's being hexed, Pansy and other Slytherin girls are behind Snape's back silently giggling and pointing at Hermione. Why are they keeping their giggles silent? Why are they staying behind Snape's back to point? Because they know that their giggling and pointing would be unacceptable to Snape -- certainly they don't care that students see them giggling and pointing. Which is interesting that even as Snape says "I see no difference" his Slytherin students don't want him to know they are giggling and pointing at Hermione.
Later in the same class, Draco turns his back on Snape to show Harry the Potter Stinks badge, once again implying that Draco doesn't want Snape to see him doing this.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 16, 2008 9:31 am (#284 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 10:45 am
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. In this scene, Hermione's teeth, by the time Snape arrives, "had grown well past her collar" (GF ch. 18). There could be no mistaking her condition, even from a greasy-haired malcontent like Snape. He was insulting her, straight up - and for no reason other than she was Harry's friend.
But instead of just seeing the situation for what it is, we have this verbally acrobatic attempt to come up with an "explanation" that keeps the halo over Snape's head. What's up with that?
The giggling behind Snape's back means absolutely nothing. Even though Snape is often barely as mature as his own students, he's still a teacher.
We know that James and Sirius initiated ONE attack: the Worst Memory. That's it. There is nothing else in the text to clearly indicate that James and Sirius attacked Snape other than that one occasion. Sure, they called him "Snivellus" and even "Snivelly". And somehow Sirius convinced Snape to go down the willow tunnel. Undoubtedly, as with Harry and Draco, there was an almost daily exchange of verbal sparring and the trading of insults. But that doesn't mean that every time they ran across Snape they used their wands on him.
And Snape's "verbal aggression" was not born out of his school experience. Even at his first meeting with the Evans sisters, he is "verbally aggressive" toward Petunia. ("Wouldn't spy on you anyway. You're a Muggle.") Though "Tuney" has no idea of the meaning of the word, she knows an insult when she hears it. He later drops a tree branch on her. True, this was accidental magic and not really in his control. But, it shows that his immediate, emotional reaction to a person he doesn't like is a very violent and "aggressive" one.
On the train, Snape makes his "brawn over brains" remark. True, James has expressed a desire to leave school rather than be placed in Slytherin, but James hasn't actually done or said anything to Snape specifically, at this point.
James has been compared to Draco (with Harry being put in the Snape role). Harry and Draco do a LOT of bickering. But the times they actually draw wands against each other can be counted on one hand. Even at the Quidditch World Cup, when the trio stumble upon Draco in the forest, all Draco does is offer up a snarky warning to protect Hermione, the Muggle-born. There were no adults around, no ministry officials; and the place was teeming with magic. Draco could easily have jinxed any one or all of the trio before they would even have known Draco was there. But all he does is the same old "You'll be sorry, Potter" schtick.
Harry and Draco almost never come to actual blows, despite their almost daily routine of trading insults. I don't think it was any different for James and Snape until their 5th year - the year of the prank and the worst memory. Then we know that there was hexing going on on both sides.
wynnleaf - Aug 16, 2008 10:24 am (#285 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 11:32 am
Hah!
I been waiting for you to respond, Quinn! 'Cause I knew that would really get to you. Sorry, I just couldn't help it. No seriously, I think the first reading that most of us have on the GOF teeth scene is probably the way it's supposed to be read - that Snape is intentionally telling Hermione, more-or-less, "you're teeth were so big on their own, that how can I tell any difference after a hex?"
But the alternative reading has been suggested by others and actually it can fit and actually makes a bit more sense, because
1. it more directly actually answers what Ron is saying ( look, Draco hurt Hermione really bad, too!),
2. it's hard to see that Snape with the oh-so-horrible teeth would have paid any attention to Hermione's lovely white, even, but slightly larger teeth - which he'd have to have known she was sensitive about it, because supposedly his remark is calculated to hurt. Of course, you could say that Snape just said it assuming that anyone would be hurt by such a comment, but no, they wouldn't. Someone with just regular teeth, who wasn't sensitive about their size, would get hexed with these huge walrus size teeth and Snape's remark would just seem wierd like "what's he on about?" So Snape had to have noticed Hermione's normally largish teeth and already surmised that she was sensitive about them. For the reader, who already knows that Hermione is sensitive about her teeth, the remark seems calculated to hurt.
3. the Slytherin kids hiding their nastiness behind Snape's back does tell us that they don't think even this teacher would want to see them doing that.
And Snape's "verbal aggression" was not born out of his school experience. (Quinn)
Probably that's true. Snape grew up with a possible verbally abusive parent, possibly even both since he comments on them both arguing a lot. So it's more likely that he learned verbal aggression in his own home.
Harry and Draco do a LOT of bickering. But the times they actually draw wands against each other can be counted on one hand. (Quinn)
While I think there are a lot of parallels between Snape and Harry, I don't think that the Harry and Draco rivalry is the same as the Snape and James one. However, I must say that the occasions that Harry and Draco fight, it's often much, much more serious than anything we hear about between Snape and James and the Marauders. At the end of GOF and OOTP, Harry and his friends hex and jinx Draco and his friends into unconsciousness. In the GOF instance, the only provocation is Draco being insulting, while the OOTP provocation is Draco actually setting out to attack Harry. But the extreme degree of the hexing, which leaves Draco and his friends unconscious for many hours, is pretty bad. And then there's Draco's breaking Harry's nose in HBP. And Harry and Draco fighting in HBP with Sectumsempra and crucio. So I'd say that it's really pretty serious stuff.
But as for the Marauders, or James and Sirius, against Snape, I'd have to include the first instance where James trips Snape - they're only 11 and only just met, so it's significant. Then there's Sirius' attempts to send Snape into the jaws of a werewolf - whether he wanted him bitten or dead doesn't matter, it was Sirius' plan to get Snape into harms way. And James and Sirius attacking Snape. So that's three times specifically mentioned, without any mention of a time Snape initiates an attack on them.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 16, 2008 3:48 pm (#286 of 2988)
Oh no! I'm predictable and easily baited! I admit you got me good with that one, Wynnleaf Well played!
PeskyPixie - Aug 16, 2008 4:28 pm (#287 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 5:29 pm
Do you know what I find ridiculous? The fact that Petunia and James are both nasty to Snape first and then when he retaliates we fault him for being a horrid little boy. I mean, come on, we find ways to excuse James ('he's establishing a hierarchy, it's natural behaviour') and Petunia for their bad behaviour and blame the entire incidents on Snape? Snape has his issues, but in the examples we are given it seems that he needs to be provoked into an argument/fight and he will then defend himself. Granted, he is not nice when provoked; he can be downright nasty. However, perhaps that's just one more reason to leave him alone. If you poke an unknown critter with a stick, it may just bite you on the nose.
As for staying quiet when James does his song and dance about Gryffindor Power, I was the type of kid who would not have answered, so I was living through Snape's brainy vs. brawny bit! But then Sirius gets the last word.
As for 'Snivelly', my very point was that there is no deeper reason for the name. They called him 'Snivellus' on the first day they met him because it's an insulting name which sort of goes with Severus and the fact that they call him this on the day of the Prank indicates that name-calling and whatnot have been going on for five years, unless of course they suddenly remembered the name that day after a five year hiatus during which they hadn't set eyes or wands on each other.
Also, please note that I am in no way saying that Snape is an innocent little wretch who only ever used spells defensively. Once the enmity was formed he probably tried to zap James whenever he got the occasion (though I don't feel that he's the name-calling type during that stage of his life), however, the enmity is provoked by James. There is no way around that unless we blame Snape for responding to James' rude remarks aboard the Hogwarts Express, and personally, I tend to make it a rule to never accuse someone of provoking bullying. And yes, James is a bully as an eleven-year old.
mona, I'm really behind on posts, but I'm not used to the idea of boys wrestling girls to show their affection either. Thus, I didn't see the "don't make me hex you, Evans," bit as endearing.
wynnleaf - Aug 16, 2008 5:12 pm (#288 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 6:12 pm
I admit you got me good with that one, Wynnleaf (Quinn)
I'd seen that theory around the fandom in the past and, while I doubt it would be what JKR intended, it was still a pretty good theory and made a certain kind of sense, as I outlined previously, although I don't think it's really what JKR meant. Anyway, I'm glad you don't mind being had.
Pesky, I agree about how young Snape, even 9 year old Snape who was Lily's age with Petunia being somewhat older, somehow gets all the blame from some readers for his initial interactions with Petunia and James, even though they are the ones that start acting rude or mean first.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 16, 2008 7:49 pm (#289 of 2988)
Well, not to play devil's advocate or anything, but Snape does call Lily a witch. And even though he isn't really calling her a witch in the sense that the Evans sisters know, the girls don't know this. Plus he admits that he's been spying on them, which seems to be the greater offense. So, Petunia's behavior is in response to this, even though she isn't very nice.
Snape tells Lily on the train, "You better be in Slytherin" - as if she has any control over it. He doesn't say, "I hope we're both in the same House" or even "I hope you're in Slytherin too". James could - in his mind -partly be trying to stick up for Lily. (*shrug*)
Anyway, I see what you mean, Pesky. But I think people are just responding to Snape's overall manner. Even as a child, he's a greasy, sarcastic malcontent who wears funny clothes and takes himself far too seriously. His personality is the polar opposite of friendly and is actually quite hostile and defensive even before anyone ever says a word to him.
He seems to think so highly of himself that he'd rather be completely alone, without any friends to speak of, than alter his personality even slightly to maybe get a few people to like him. Lily seems to be the only exception in that he actually does seem to care what she thinks. That is, until it comes to becoming a Death Eater, about which he turns a deaf ear.
severusisn'tevil - Aug 16, 2008 10:42 pm (#290 of 2988)
Edited Aug 16, 2008 11:47 pm
"He seems to think so highly of himself at he'd rather be completely alone, without any friends to speak of, than alter his personality even slightly to maybe get a few people to like him." (QC).
I really don't think so. He has walls for self-defense, even as a nine-year-old, which I personally can identify with easily. It isn't that Severus does not want friends, exactly, but he just doesn't really *know* how to go about getting any. We can tell by the way he spies on Lily that he *is* interested in knowing someone his own age, and by his embarrassment at being caught that he cares what she thinks of him.
I repeat, he doesn't *want* to be alone, but get slammed enough times by people you trust, i.e. your parents, as seems to happen with Severus (it is not expressly stated that he is abused, but it is at least heavily implied that his home life is a far sight from happy and contented seeing as even Harry notices as Severus boards the train that Severus lacks "the air of being well cared-for, even adored", but I digress) and you'll start to *tell* yourself that's what you want. You'll start getting used to being alone. It's safer: You're lonely, but at least no one can get around your wall and hurt you or cause you pain.
That isolation also becomes part of your identity. The idea of relinquishing your solitude without good reason will seem utterly mad. Why give up your safety for people who may or may not become a friend and thereby give them an opportunity to burn you again? And besides, if you give it up, you lose a part of yourself.
And why should you change yourself to ingratiate yourself with others? I think at least some of his unpopularity is that (as I've learned from experience) is that teens and preteens are just downright cruel and intolerant at times. The same instinct in adolescents that causes them to mock an eleven-year-old girl who chooses to sport a Padawan braid and read for fun causes them to laugh at an isolated wizard boy of the same age who has messy clothes and parents who are indifferent at best. Adolescents as a group can just be so shallow. I apologize if I sound bitter, but I've heard the 'modify your behavior to curry favor and get them to like you' argument too many times for it to honestly hold much water. Why settle for friends who like you only because you pretend to be someone you're not? How would it be if every semi-hostile geek sold out to join the mainstream popular crowd? As they say in one of my favorite movies, "you wear a mask so long you forget who you were beneath it."
Personally, I don't see a fair measure of compassion and a certain ability to identify with isolation as halo-making, but that is just my opinion, and I force no one to share it. I do, in fact, expect this post to be shot full of holes as soon as its posted. So have at it. I'm stubborn as a mule.
Pesky, excellent point about Severus getting blamed for hostilities that are initiated by other people.
And it's interesting, Quinn, that you explain Petunia's reaction as "not very nice" when the feeling I get from your posts is that you're determined not to make such explanations, or at least that you are not overly interested in such explanations where Severus is concerned in the capacity of, as you put it "not being very nice." NO offense meant, it's just a paradox of sorts I notice. severusisn'tevil
wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2008 5:55 am (#291 of 2988)
Edited Aug 17, 2008 7:00 am
So, Petunia's behavior is in response to this, even though she isn't very nice. (Quinn)
Sure, I can see that there's some miscommunication in the girls understanding what young Snape meant. Petunia thinks that young Severus is being insulting by calling Lily a witch and that he's wierd for saying he's a wizard. So she answers very rudely and, according to the narration, makes it plain that she thinks he comes from an undesirable part of town and is nothing.
So if Petunia gets the excuse of thinking Snape is being so rude, and she's just reacting to that, why doesn't young Snape get the same excuse? After all, Petunia really was being intentionally rude and Snape, like Petunia, is only responding to the rudeness he hears from her. And Petunia was older as well, which means that she was being rude to a younger kid, while Snape was standing up to rudeness from an older child.
Snape tells Lily on the train, "You better be in Slytherin" - as if she has any control over it. (Quinn)
Yes, that's an interesting observation. It makes it sound like Snape does think she might have some control over it, so perhaps Eileen has told him that you can ask the Hat for a particular House. So maybe Snape asked for Slytherin, since it was pretty clear that's where he wanted to be, yet it's also clear that he had huge potential for courage.
In that first meeting on the train, James didn't seem like he was saying anything to support Lily. He certainly doesn't say anything to indicate that and his attitude is more an anti-Slytherin focus rather than a focus on giving support to another kid.
Julia H. - Aug 17, 2008 9:48 am (#292 of 2988)
Edited Aug 17, 2008 11:07 am
It is nice to see you back, seveusisn'tevil!
I don't think anybody is suggesting that Snape is an innocent little angel. We understand that he "gave as good as he got" and that (after the Worst Memory at least) he never lost an opportunity to hex James and that he invented Sectumsempra. We also agree that, as a DE, later, he was culpable for watching any crimes without doing anything, yes. I think what several of us are saying (and it is certainly my opinion) is that the positive evidence we actually get from the books indicates that the Marauders (James and Sirius) are mainly responsible for the enmity and for the physical violence in the enmity. It does not mean Snape does not use physical violence against the Marauders but Snape's using physical violence as well does not change the fact that it is the Marauders who started the whole thing with the name-calling and the tripping. No, the Worst Memory is not the only case when the Marauders attack first: on the train it is James who tries to trip Snape and not vica versa. Can anyone tell me what the purpose of this scene in the book can be if it is not to indicate how the enmity started, if it has no relevance with regard to the rest of the story?
As I've been going through the recent posts, I saw the shift in emphasis: Quinn is saying some of us want to see Snape as completely innocent, with a "halo". However, that is not how this particular discussion started: It started because there was a suggestion implying that Snape was responsible for what happened to him in the Worst Memory, that he started it all with the Prank and James must have left him alone before that - practically saying that James is the innocent little angel who was forced to do something about Snape. And what else could the dear little boy do than gang-attack, disarm and publicly torture and humiliate his enemy? But no, we do have the train incident and the continuity of the "Snivellus" name over five years. On the train, James tries to trip Snape as the word "Snivellus" is pronounced. Five years later, James uses the name as he is torturing Snape. Since this is a novel, not real life, we can conclude that the name and the accompanying violence connect the train scene with the Worst Memory Scene.
Besides, the original argument about Snape's starting the "new" enmity in the fifth year also implies that the Worst Memory was some kind of deserved retaliation but it sounds rather extreme: We do not get to see Snape start an attack but that is not the only thing we do not get to see. We never see him torture a disarmed enemy, we never see him gang-attack any of the Marauders, we never see him publicly strip anyone (or threaten to do so) - there is no mention about these things either. So it is hard to believe that Snape deserved what happened to him then or that the reader is intended to think that it was the Marauders' right to do all those things to him.
About "four on one": I think it is an important aspect because it underlies the bullying nature of the Marauders' behaviour. It was not James duelling with Snape to see who was better at it. No, they did not want to give a fair chance to their enemy. You know I don't think we have a reason to doubt Snape's words when he says "four-on-one" and not because he somehow imagined four Marauders when he saw only one. I think the Worst Memory Scene shows us how it may have happened: Sirius and James actively fighting and Lupin and Pettigrew being present as well. Now I think the presence of another two friends of the attackers psychologically, from the victim's point of view, may very well count as "four". Why? Because he never knows what those other two will do: Will they remain passive if Snape manages to disarm or to seriously hex both their friends? Or, as he is engaged in a fight with two (and two is more than one), will not Pettigrew direct a spell at his back? How can he know? I think if there are four of the Marauders, Snape will have to pay some attention to all four of them during a fight, which certainly makes his job more difficult.
This is exactly what happens in the "Sacking of Severus Snape" chapter: There are four attackers, of whom two are active, and the other two are behind their backs and may be ready to actively join the fight.
So maybe Snape asked for Slytherin, since it was pretty clear that's where he wanted to be, yet it's also clear that he had huge potential for courage. (Wynnleaf)
I guess, as a little boy, Snape did not realize his huge potential for courage or that his courage might have anything to do with Gryffindor expectations. He seems to associate Gryffindor with strong, athletic boys, quite unlike himself.
Petunia... the book is not handy right now: does not she run away when Snape appears? Does she hear it first when Snape calls Lily a witch? Later of course she hears Snape's explanation but then she also hears Snape say that there is nothing wrong with that and that he himself is a wizard. I don't think her verbal attack on Snape is due to any insult against her sister.
wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2008 10:47 am (#293 of 2988)
Edited Aug 17, 2008 11:47 am
While I generally agree with Julia's post, in fairness to Quinn, I don't think the argument was that James was always sweet and nice prior to the Worst Memory scene. But I did understand the argument to be that James didn't initiate attacks on Snape until the year of the Prank. At that time the Marauders became aware that Snape was sneaking around trying to get them expelled, and Snape's sneaking could have brought Lupin's secret to light. Therefore James, in his attacks after the Prank, was actually retaliating for Snape trying to get them expelled and almost revealing Lupin's secret.
What I disliked about this argument was that it's basically saying that the enmity wasn't much until Snape kind of forced the hand of the Marauders and they had to defend themselves from this guy trying to get them expelled, by attacking him. Of course, that kind of begs the question since Snape couldn't very well get them expelled if they weren't doing anything very wrong.
Still, JKR gave us the scene on the train for a reason. What was it for? The primary intent of that scene seems to be to show the reader how the enmity between James, Sirius, and Snape started, that it was over nothing more than House rivalry, and that James was the aggressor from the beginning, even to the extent of starting physical bullying. I can hardly think what other intent there would be in the scene, because we already knew they disliked each other. A big question from the fandom regarding their mutual dislike had always been what and who started it. Of course, JKR doesn't always answer everything readers want to know, but it seems to me that she was answering this question.
Ditto the Prank. She had told readers that they would learn more about the Prank. What more did we learn that we didn't already know? We learned that the possible serious consequences of the Prank was not what reformed James. We learned how Lily reacted to it. I recall that a number of posters on the Forum had thought we'd find out some way that Snape was to blame for the Prank. We didn't find out any more to Snape's blame than we ever had - that he was trying to find out something that would get Marauders expelled and he wanted to find out what Lupin was up to.
So if there were things in the backstory regarding the Prank, the confrontations between the Marauders, and other aspects of Snape's youth that made Snape look worse, JKR didn't seem to think they were worth telling us. Nor has she since elaborated on any more nastiness of Snape during interviews. To the contrary, she said Snape wouldn't have joined LV if he'd had it to do over, and she said that he joined the Death Eaters more from his insecurities than anything else - wanting to belong to something powerful and thinking Lily would think more of him for that. She could have told us how Snape was really into hurting other people, hated muggleborns, was into blood purity, and that's why he joined up. But she didn't say that.
So back to the train scene, JKR wrote that and included it for a reason. If that was a one-time isolated occurance and James never acted like that again for the next 5 years, what's the point in including the scene? And if James and the Marauder attacks on Snape were in retaliation for Snape persecuting them why didn't JKR say so? Instead, she has James give reasons like "because he exists," and Sirius saying because he was this "little oddball" and "up to his ears in dark magic".
Quinn Crockett - Aug 17, 2008 11:24 am (#294 of 2988)
Edited Aug 17, 2008 1:17 pm
And why should you change yourself to ingratiate yourself with others? - Because the world doesn't revolve around you and if you want to be a part of it, then you are the one who needs to change your behavior; the rest of the world certainly isn't going to adapt just for you. I mean, true, you certainly don't have to do anything to try to fit in. But then you don't really get to complain about isolation and loneliness. In other words, you can't isolate yourself by putting up huge emotional walls and then complain that nobody can (or really wants to) get in to see the "real you".
It's like going to a foreign country and expecting everyone to just speak your language, and then getting irked when no one is "willing" to accommodate you. Sure, there will always be someone who speaks your language and can therefore communicate with you and make you feel at ease - and you might even be lucky enough to run into one of those people early on in your trip. But it's just plain unrealistic to expect that to actually happen. You need to at least make the effort to try to be understood.
If you do choose not to try to fit in more (and I'm not suggesting anyone should suck up to the "cool" kids or try to be popular), then you need to be prepared to take some flak for it. I don't know what a "Patawan braid" is, but when I was in high school, I had blue hair and wore combat boots. And if you think I didn't get hassled about that, you're sorely mistaken.
the feeling I get from your posts is that you're determined not to make such explanations, or at least that you are not overly interested in such explanations where Severus is concerned in the capacity of, as you put it "not being very nice."
I'm sure that is how it seems to someone who so closely identifies with the character. But it's true that I'm not interested in excuses and I'm not going to jump on the "boo hoo poor little misunderstood Sev" bandwagon. He is responsible for his own behavior, for his own decisions; and as such needs to be prepared to accept the consequences. I don't buy the "he doesn't know what to do" excuse either, because clearly he values Lily's opinion. She does offer him guidance, but he chooses only to listen to what he wants to hear ("James Potter is an arrogant toerag").
As for the Petunia's initial response, a major detail of that exchange is that he was spying on them (and was not embarrassed about it). That's pretty suspicious behavior and is corroborated (in Petunia's mind) by the fact that he lives in a dodgy part of town. But even if she was a year or two older than Lily and Snape, so what? She's was still only a child herself and responds as a child, not as an adult or with an adult's mindset. As a sort of counterpoint, we have multiple incidents of Snape, who is an adult, still responding as he did when he was a child.
I do not count the almost trip as an "attack". I mean, if you're going to count trying to trip someone as an "attack" then you need to count all the verbal baiting Snape does as well. But I agree that JKR put it there to show the instant enmity between these characters and that it only escalated over the years.
there was a suggestion implying that Snape was responsible for what happened to him in the Worst Memory - Hm. That was not my take on it at all. I was the one who said that Snape was responsible for what happened to him in the prank (that he should never have listened to Sirius, should never have gone down the tunnel). But then there was a debate about whether or not anything really happened (other than name calling) prior to the prank, which happened some time before the Worst Memory.
Petunia... does not she run away when Snape appears? - Both girls do. And Lily says, "That's not a very nice thing to call someone."
James, in his attacks after the Prank, was actually retaliating for Snape trying to get them expelled and almost revealing Lupin's secret. - I just don't think James and Sirius showed Snape a whole lot of interest prior to this. They were very busy creating the Marauder's Map and learning how to be animagi. Plus James, at least would have had quidditch practice as well (when did they ever sleep?) to factor in. I think that, though they no doubt had near daily bouts of verbal sparring in the intervening years, that things didn't really start to get ugly with Snape until the prank.
wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2008 3:46 pm (#295 of 2988)
Edited Aug 17, 2008 4:51 pm
And why should you change yourself to ingratiate yourself with others? (Julia)
Because the world doesn't revolve around you and if you want to be a part of it, then you are the one who needs to change your behavior; the rest of the world certainly isn't going to adapt just for you. I mean, true, you certainly don't have to do anything to try to fit in. (Quinn)
There's a huge difference in adapting to fit in with the overall group norms or with a general culture (like a school culture). It's quite another to "adapt" to one or two specific other people who simply don't like you because you're "odd" or because you exist. What exactly is one supposed to change?
One of my children has been outright bullied occasionally and regularly kept out of the "popular" crowd. A couple of girls (these are 13 year olds) would give her the advice that everyone would like her if she'd only dress like everyone else, have the same interests in music, watch the same TV shows, etc. My daughter isn't some wierd person. Adults think she's a regular kid, even if she's not dressed exactly like the others or interested in the same things. The other little girls that assume that she'd be liked if she'd only conform are, in fact, probably wrong. I've seen this play out with kids over and over, girls and guys alike. In searching for some reasonable explanation to the kids being an outcast, people want to assume that the other kids do actually have a reasonable excuse for excluding or bullying the kid. While that is occasionally true, it's often simply not the case. And I think JKR makes this clear in the "because he exists" line from James or the "oddball" remark from Sirius and Lupin. It really isn't something specific about Snape as opposed to all other Slytherins. James was first antagonistic as soon as he heard the word "Slytherin" come out of Snape's mouth. Snape's particular personality didn't matter. It was just because he was Slytherin. But later, according to JKR, it was in part Snape's friendship with Lily that caused more rivalry. Once again, it wasn't Snape, but just Lily. But was it really any other that? Did James go after all Slytherins? No, we're told Snape was a special case. Did James go after every guy that liked Lily? We're told she was quite popular, yet once again, Snape's "special".
So was Snape supposed to give up Lily's friendship to placate James? Of course not. Was he supposed to stop being a Slytherin? Well, no, that's not possible. So what was he supposed to change? Oh, maybe he wasn't supposed to answer James back. Maybe "fitting in" in this case would be submitting to James. But even then, bullies often don't stop when the victim submits. They often keep right on, because deep down, it's just because the victim exists.
Steve Newton - Aug 17, 2008 5:06 pm (#296 of 2988)
Snape tells Lily on the train, "You better be in Slytherin" - as if she has any control over it. (Quinn)
It makes it sound like Snape does think she might have some control over it (Wynnleaf)
I think that it is clear from Harry's experience that they do have control over their house.
rassannassar - Aug 17, 2008 8:33 pm (#297 of 2988)
And I think it was Snape's very attitude about being in Slytherin that made him one of those that was so quick to be sorted. I think that's safe to assume because the exact wording from the book is:
Harry walked with him to the stool, watched him place the hat upon his head. "Slytherin!" cried the Sorting Hat.
If it hadn't been quick I'm sure that would have been made clear. His attitude was very much like Draco's in Madam Malkin's in the first book. It was very important to them to be in Slytherin and so they were in Slytherin. To James it was important to be in Gryffindor like his dad. Sirius, however, did not want to be in Slytherin because he wanted to be different from his family. All of them got their wishes. I think part of the reason that being in certain houses seems to run in families is because there is an expectation that they should belong to a certain house. While I think it is unlikely that any of them explicitly asked the Sorting Hat to put them somewhere in particular, it's probably safe to say that it saw within them that they had a desire to be in one house or another, or in Sirius's case, that they simply did not want to be in a certain house. Maybe that's why, as far as I can tell, Muggle-borns and other wizards who, like Harry, weren't raised with the knowledge of magic or Hogwarts are more difficult to Sort. Hermione said the Sorting Hat seriously considered putting her in Ravenclaw, but decided on Gryffindor. I think that it clearly saw her brilliance, and it saw her bravery, and saw that she didn't really have any expectation of being in one or the other, so when the decision fell to it and she was equally qualified for both houses, it needed to take more time to decide.
Now of course, this doesn't apply to everyone.
The general point I'm trying to make is that it seems that there is a degree of control to it. I think that wanting to be in a certain house, or having the expectation of being in a certain house, increases the likelihood of being in that house.
mona amon - Aug 17, 2008 9:44 pm (#298 of 2988)
Good points, rassannassar. There is a degree of control. But most of the kids do not seem to be aware of it.
Snape tells Lily on the train, "You better be in Slytherin" - as if she has any control over it. He doesn't say, "I hope we're both in the same House" or even "I hope you're in Slytherin too". James could - in his mind -partly be trying to stick up for Lily. (Quinn)
I've come across this phrase 'you'd better be...' or 'you'd better get...' or 'you'd better win...' quite often in my reading, used in a similar manner to the way Snape uses it. It's a playful way of saying 'I wish with all my heart that this will happen, so it had better happen.' I don't see how it can possibly be misinterpreted by James as a threat to Lily. If he had said, in a threatening sort of way, "you'd better ask the Sorting Hat to put you in Slytherin" that would have been a different matter.
Dryleaves - Aug 17, 2008 11:00 pm (#299 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 12:01 am
As for the Petunia's initial response, a major detail of that exchange is that he was spying on them (and was not embarrassed about it). That's pretty suspicious behavior and is corroborated (in Petunia's mind) by the fact that he lives in a dodgy part of town. But even if she was a year or two older than Lily and Snape, so what? She's was still only a child herself and responds as a child, not as an adult or with an adult's mindset. As a sort of counterpoint, we have multiple incidents of Snape, who is an adult, still responding as he did when he was a child. (Quinn)
I do not think I share your view of the severity of the spying Snape does in the playground scene. I am sure Petunia does not like it, but I do not know if a child "spying" on other children is to be regarded as "suspicious". It is not as if it is a grown-up person lurking in the bushes looking at the little girls playing. A reason why he is hiding may be that Lily maybe would not show her magical abilities when other kids than Petunia were around and he really wants to make sure that she in fact is a witch (this is just a suggestion). Another may be that he is waiting and preparing for the perfect moment to make contact and what he wants is to make friends with someone who he thinks is just like him.
And anyway, "spying" is not that unusual a game for kids of that age. At least I remember boys spying on me and my friends playing and we were of course full of indignation, but then we spied back.
Later of course both Snape and Petunia see each other as rivals and want poor Lily for themselves. Both Petunia and Snape are children by the time of the playground scene, and if we are to drag adult Snape into it then adult Petunia cannot be said to have changed that much of her childhood views and manners either.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 18, 2008 3:48 am (#300 of 2988)
Ooh, 55 posts since I was last able to post on this thread! I have read them all, but I knew there was a reason I usually couldn't participate in the Snape thread. I think I need to refocus my limited time elsewhere, and bow out of this discussion.
I just want to say though that I have reread the Worst Memory scene, Sirius's and Lupin's comments on it, Snape's dying memories, and some tidbits related to the situation, and I am very comfortable with my conclusions. I think the train scene established animosity between Snape, James and Sirius, but it wasn't until fifth year that things turned really ugly, and Snape's motive for trying to get the Marauders expelled was jealousy over Lily. I don't think I'll change anyone's mind on it, and without new evidence I can't see anyone changing mine, so time to go.
Now I'm off to catch up on the Read-A-Long thread....
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wynnleaf - Aug 18, 2008 4:12 am (#301 of 2988)
I think the train scene established animosity between Snape, James and Sirius, but it wasn't until fifth year that things turned really ugly, and Snape's motive for trying to get the Marauders expelled was jealousy over Lily. (Mrs Brisbee)
One problem I have with this theory is that it doesn't really give Snape much reason at all for trying to get Sirius, Peter, and Lupin expelled. If the only real problem between Snape and the Marauders in the first years was a rivalry over Lily, I could maybe see Snape disliking James and wanting him expelled (although supposedly Lily at that time wouldn't have dated James). But I don't see the motivation to spend so much time looking for a reason to get the others expelled, if the only problem was a Lily rivalry. JKR says that Lily was really popular and apparently a lot of guys would have liked her, but we aren't given the notion that Snape was trying to get anybody and everybody who was attracted to Lily expelled.
I just don't see jealousy over Lily as motivation enough for Snape to want to spend lots of time trying to find a reason to get Lupin, Sirius, and Peter expelled. James perhaps, the rest, no.
Besides, as I and others have said, JKR's train scene appears to me to have the intent of showing us that the enmity was started by James over nothing more than House affiliation, contained physical aggression even from the start, and gradually worked its way into greater and greater bullying.
The Worst Memory scene is really pretty extreme. The intent of the curses used could be likened to tying someone up and then humiliating them publicly. Attempting to strip someone in public is also pretty extreme. I don't think a 15 year old just suddenly uses this sort of extreme aggression without having gradually worked up to it.
Same goes for Sirius' Prank. I don't think a kid does nothing physically aggressive toward someone, and then suddenly decides to trick them into an extremely life-threatening situation.
The extreme nature of Sirius' Prank (sending someone to meet a deadly threat), and James and Sirius' attack on Snape with binding someone up, humliating them in public in an extreme way, dropping the person on their head, and trying to strip them -- kids don't generally go from an average kid with no major physically aggressive tendencies, to suddenly out of the blue doing something like that. Especially the Worst Memory scene which James and Sirius do, not out of anger (which one might imagine could possibly change a kid who had never done anything extreme), but out of boredom. Or Sirius' Prank which he seems to have done as a lark.
mona amon - Aug 18, 2008 4:44 am (#302 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 5:44 am
Er, Mrs. Brisbee, if you are still reading this thread, why do you think the Marauders did nothing to Snape prior to the prank, and then suddenly started bullying him after that? What is it about the Prank that made them change their behaviour towards Snape so drastically?
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 18, 2008 7:49 am (#303 of 2988)
Er, Mrs. Brisbee, if you are still reading this thread , why do you think the Marauders did nothing to Snape prior to the prank, and then suddenly started bullying him after that? What is it about the Prank that made them change their behaviour towards Snape so drastically?-- mona amon
Well, since there are only 2 posts so far ....
I think Snape and James (and Sirius) hated each other due to House affiliation from day one. I just don't think Snape was the target of relentless bullying.
My opinion is based on the sequence of events laid out by Rowling. In Snape's memory after the Prank, Lily says, "Why are you so obsessed with them anyway?" I can't see why she would ask that question if Snape had been bullied by them for four straight years. If that were the case, the reasons for his obsession with them should be obvious.
In the same memory Snape straight up gives his concern that James fancies Lily. So that is the only motive presented so far for Snape's action.
Again, it all comes down to the order the action takes place in.
The rest of it is probably better discussed on James's or Sirius's thread, because it goes to their motives rather than Snape's.
severusisn'tevil - Aug 18, 2008 8:14 am (#304 of 2988)
Except that Severus would not have cried to Lily about all the incidents. It seems to me quite likely that Severus was frequently the Marauders' target. I mean, not only is a prime target in and of himself---doesn't fit in, odd clothes, secondhand books, and a desire to give as good as he gets. Someone on the thread previously described him as a "scrapper" which seems to me to fit rather well. He is the scrapper that few people likes. But Lily wouldn't necessarily know. Most bullying isn't done as in the open as his WM. And talking about it to the girl he liked would have probably increased his shame.
And then there's Sirius's comment about "being bored." Is that meant to convey that it was a random act of bullying? From how pleased the J and S seem about the turn of events, I don't think so. Severus can't be the only oddball. They could just as easily have chosen someone else if it had *only* been boredom. Ah well.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 18, 2008 8:27 am (#305 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 9:28 am
Except that Severus would not have cried to Lily about all the incidents.
**sigh**
But now we are back to it being secret bullying, with no evidence that it was a secret, or that there was bullying.
Since the Attempted Trip is touted by many as the first act of bullying, please note that it was done with Lily right there.
SWM is done with Lily right there.
According to Sirius and Lupin, James took care not to hex Snape when Lily was around only after they were going out, which wasn't until seventh year.
If Snape was being bullied for those four years, then it seems remarkable to me that Lily is totally oblivious about it.
wynnleaf - Aug 18, 2008 8:44 am (#306 of 2988)
If Snape was being bullied for those four years, then it seems remarkable to me that Lily is totally oblivious about it. (Mrs Brisbee)
That's a valid question, but I don't think Lily's comments necessarily mean that she's oblivious to any bullying James and Sirius might do.
A similar example are Hermione and Ron, who think that Harry is obsessed with digging up wrongdoing on Draco's part in HBP. Yet we know that they are well aware that Draco attacked Harry at the start of HBP, has a dad who's a Death Eater, tried with his friends to attack them all at the end of OOTP, and in general hates Harry. Yet they still think Harry is obsessed with Draco.
So is there any other info that would lead us to believe Lily knew the Marauders were bullies?
Yes. 1. She wouldn't date James. 2. She comments on James being an arrogant "toerag" (like a slimeball, kind of?). 3. The fear the other kids display the moment James and Sirius start attacking Snape in the Worst Memory scene, as though they know that a big confrontation is about to take place. 4. Lily's observation that at least the Marauders don't do Dark Magic. For Lily to have any comprehension of what Snape might mean when he asks his question about how the Dark Magic joke was so different from what James and his gang get up to, Lily has to already know that James and Co. do a lot of wrong things. She doesn't answer Snape with "what are you talking about? James doesn't do much of anything bad!" She seems to understand that there is a comparison to be made, it just that the Marauders don't do Dark Magic.
All my other arguments as well... no use repeating them. I feel like a debator: "I'd like to pull my earlier arguments over as well."
mona amon - Aug 18, 2008 9:34 am (#307 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 10:43 am
My opinion is based on the sequence of events laid out by Rowling. In Snape's memory after the Prank, Lily says, "Why are you so obsessed with them anyway?" I can't see why she would ask that question if Snape had been bullied by them for four straight years. If that were the case, the reasons for his obsession with them should be obvious.
I do not think it would be obvious to Lily. She may not have thought the bullying was a big deal, especially since I doubt whether Snape ever told her anything about it. (ETA: She doesn't seem to think what happens in SWM is a big deal, she has to hide a smile)
And if Snape goes sneaking around the Marauders hoping to get them expelled only because of rivalry over Lily, well, the same motive can be applied to James. If we take into account the psychology of the individual (came here straight after putting down a Hercule Poirot mystery ), is it likely that James, who bullies others for apparantly no reason at all, is going to leave this greasy Slytherin alone when he is so friendly with Lily?
In JKR's mind this was a reason for James's 'behaviour' towards Snape.
From the Bloomsbury Webchat-
Rachel Nell: Jkr, thank you for such amazing books! I would like to know how come noone seemed to know that lily and snape were friends in school they were obviously meeting for chats, etc didnt james know their past J.K. Rowling: Thank you for your thank you! J.K. Rowling: Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known. J.K. Rowling: James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James' behaviour to Snape.
I'll take the rest of it to the James thread tomorrow
EDIT: Crossposted with everyone after Mrs. Brisbee's post#303.
Julia H. - Aug 18, 2008 10:31 am (#308 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 11:33 am
And why should you change yourself to ingratiate yourself with others? - Because the world doesn't revolve around you and if you want to be a part of it, then you are the one who needs to change your behavior; the rest of the world certainly isn't going to adapt just for you. (Quinn)
While I agree with this statement in general, I don't think it can be applied to the train scene. Why should Snape suddenly change his opinion just because there is another kid (one he does not know and may not like) who has a different opinion? James could just as well change his. It would be a different case if, heading for Hogwarts, Snape would be praising Durmstrang, for example, over Hogwarts. In that situation, it would be a realistic expectation for him to show some initial loyalty towards the school they are all going to go. However, Snape is only talking about one of the houses in the school, which is neither banned nor is officially declared as "undesirable". Choosing Slytherin, Snape chooses one of the houses of a larger community they are all going to belong to.
Apart from that, I agree that Snape does not know very well how to adapt to his environment and yes, he has to pay the price. But why doesn't he know that? He is an only child (it is always more difficult for an only child); he is a wizard kid who has so far lived in a muggle environment, where he is an "oddball" - not because others know that he is a wizard but because of the poverty of his family and his strange, mismatched clothes. When he first goes to Hogwarts, he is already used to being an oddball. The "spying" behind the bushes is evidence for that: he does not know how to get acquainted with another child, how to make friends and he certainly does not know (yet) how to hide his feelings when it would be wise to hide them.
But later, at Hogwarts, I think he does try to adapt to the others, to his environment, i.e., to his most immediate environment, Slytherin House and his peers there. He imitates their way of speaking and repeats their opinions. (That is what teenagers normally do.) These are desperate attempts to adapt, to integrate, because he wants to have friends - and the results are disastrous. He will never try it again in his life.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 18, 2008 10:46 am (#309 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 11:55 am
There's a huge difference in adapting to fit in with the overall group norms or with a general culture (like a school culture). It's quite another to "adapt" to one or two specific other people who simply don't like you because you're "odd" or because you exist. What exactly is one supposed to change? - Wynnleaf
You have taken my comment out of context. I never said anyone should "adapt to specific people". In fact, I specifically said, "I'm not suggesting anyone should suck up to the 'cool' kids or try to be popular". The comment was in response to the idea of someone choosing to isolate themselves emotionally while at the same time bemoaning their lack of intimacy with anyone around them.
I understand that you are extremely sensitive about the idea of bullying, Wynnleaf, because of your own experiences with it. However, like Mrs Brisbee, I just don't see any evidence that this almost daily ritual of "Snape Hunting" is what actually took place.
----------
Harry's experience with the Sorting Hat, while it does show that the students can choose which House they want, does not appear to have been common knowledge. Even so, Snape has never said anything "playfully". No, he's not threatening Lily about being in Slytherin - he's not saying, "You better be in Slytherin or else..." But he is certainly quite adamant in his desire. In any case, I don't really think James thought he was sticking up for Lily on the train, just expressing his personal views about Slytherin House.
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I do not think I share your view of the severity of the spying Snape does in the playground scene. I am sure Petunia does not like it, but I do not know if a child "spying" on other children is to be regarded as "suspicious". - Dryleaves
I don't think it was suspicious. We've all played the "spy on so-and-so" game. But Petunia never has and she does find this behavior questionable.
What is it about the Prank that made them change their behaviour towards Snape so drastically? - Mona Amon
How about the fact that Snape had gone well out of his way to try to expose Lupin as a werewolf?
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So, here's the thing. On the one hand, supposedly James and/or Sirius bullying Snape was common knowledge between Snape and Lily - to the point that it doesn't even require mentioning - or, apparently, count as a reason for Snape to be "so obsessed with them". On the other hand, "Severus would not have cried to Lily about all the incidents" and "Lily wouldn't necessarily know."
So which is it? Because it can't be both. I agree with Mrs Brisbee that there just isn't any evidence of regular "attacks" on Snape prior to their 5th year.
"James Potter is an arrogant toerag"- Lily met Sirius and James at the same time Snape did. She has her own independent opinion of James that apparently never changed until they were much older. She clearly lists her reasons for thinking this about him during the Worst Memory. None of these include anything he has ever done to Snape.
"The fear the other kids display the moment James and Sirius start attacking Snape in the Worst Memory scene, as though they know that a big confrontation is about to take place. - Well, they do know a big confrontation is about to take place. James pretty much announces it to all and sundry. But no one displays any "fear". The text says only, "Some of them looked apprehensive". I suppose one could call that a synonym for "fear"; but even these "apprehensive" onlookers stuck around to watch.
Where are the detention records? - If Snape was bullied so often by James and/or Sirius, why not show Harry the evidence? If Snape was bullied so often by James and/or Sirius, surely there would have at been at least one occasion when the boys had to serve detention for it, seeing as how James and Sirius seemed to have no qualms about waving their wands around right out in public. And surely Snape would have wanted Harry to see that. But nope. Out of BOXES of records chosen by Snape personally specifically for the purpose, there is not one record of any incident involving Snape for Harry to copy.
"They don't use Dark Magic, though." - I think this speaks for itself. Again, James and Sirius didn't seem to take the "no magic in the corridors" rule very seriously. Like the Weasley twins, they were very out in the open with what they got up to. Lily did know that "James and Co. do a lot of wrong things". But none of them seem to have involved Snape.
Dryleaves - Aug 19, 2008 2:53 am (#310 of 2988)
Edited Aug 19, 2008 4:03 am
How about the fact that Snape had gone well out of his way to try to expose Lupin as a werewolf? (Quinn)
But had not Sirius told (or hinted at or something) Snape that he should go after them? I know you will say that Snape made his own decision to go there, which of course is true, but Sirius surely risked the exposure of his own friend, so maybe the Prank would also have created some conflict within the Marauders.
Even if Snape is a person who is certainly not nice and have done things wrong in his life, I think that many of the scenes with Snape the child show us someone who is disliked not primarily because of what he does, but for what he is, or because he is, and I do not think this is unimportant. His parents are not particularly interested in him, Petunia is suspicious because he comes from a certain part of town, the Marauders may not go on daily Snape-hunting, but when we see them in action they seem never to have any motives more explicit than House-enmity, boredom and the fact that Snape exists. (And as for the fact that all the memories are his own, who else's could they be? I think pensieve memories are a narrative device from the author's side.)
This maybe sorts under the boo-hoo poor Sev-department , but to me an important part of the character is this total conflict within between love and hate, revenge and protection, being disliked for no apparent reason other than his own existence and actually being guilty of at least one horrible action with disastrous consequences.
mona amon - Aug 19, 2008 3:39 am (#311 of 2988)
Edited Aug 19, 2008 4:48 am
How about the fact that Snape had gone well out of his way to try to expose Lupin as a werewolf? (Quinn)
He didn't. He did not even know Lupin was a werewolf until he glimpsed him at the end of the tunnel. After that he didn't say anything much about it (except for some hints to Lily) because Dumbledore had forbidden it.
I just don't see any evidence that this almost daily ritual of "Snape Hunting" is what actually took place.
I don't think anyone here suggested that it was almost daily, or even tried to guess about the frequency of the attacks. Most of us feel he was bullied enough to have a reason for snooping around the Marauders, trying to find out what they were upto in the hope of getting them expelled.
So, here's the thing. On the one hand, supposedly James and/or Sirius bullying Snape was common knowledge between Snape and Lily - to the point that it doesn't even require mentioning - or, apparently, count as a reason for Snape to be "so obsessed with them". On the other hand, "Severus would not have cried to Lily about all the incidents" and "Lily wouldn't necessarily know."
Not sure I understand what you are saying Quinn, but I suppose you mean that Lily would not have to ask Snape why he was so obsessed with the Marauders if he was getting bullied by them.
I feel it doesn't prove that Snape was not being bullied. It only means that he did not tell Lily about it. Lily may have seen skirmishes between the Marauders and Snape, but without any input from Snape, she would not have realised how he felt about it, and need not have taken it seriously.
Moreover, let us remember that she was trying to talk to Snape about Mulciber and Avery, and he was trying to bring Potter into the conversation, much to her irritation, so the 'obsessed' remark has to be taken in this context.
If Snape was bullied so often by James and/or Sirius, surely there would have at been at least one occasion when the boys had to serve detention for it, seeing as how James and Sirius seemed to have no qualms about waving their wands around right out in public. And surely Snape would have wanted Harry to see that.
No, Snape certainly would not have wanted Harry to see that. He completely lost it when he found that Harry had seen the underpants incident. Getting bullied is humiliating. If there were any detention records like that I feel sure he would have removed them.
But I think it was more likely there weren't any. The detention cards that Harry was sorting out were not all James' and Sirius's, only some of them were. They must have taken good care to see that there were no teachers around when they picked on Snape.
Lily did know that "James and Co. do a lot of wrong things". But none of them seem to have involved Snape.
We do not know this. She never actually asks him, "what did the Marauders do to you?" So she's probably including the things they did to Snape (that she knows about) in her general awareness of their wrong doings.
---------------
I just thought of something.
If we cannot prove that James and the others bullied Snape until the prank because there is no evidence, neither can we prove that Snape suspected that James fancied Lily until after the Prank. So if the Marauders did nothing to Snape during this period, why on earth would he be snooping around some arbitrary bunch of Gryfindors, trying to get them expelled?
----------
ETA: Well said, Dryleaves!
wynnleaf - Aug 19, 2008 5:27 am (#312 of 2988)
If we cannot prove that James and the others bullied Snape until the prank because there is no evidence, neither can we prove that Snape suspected that James fancied Lily until after the Prank. So if the Marauders did nothing to Snape during this period, why on earth would he be snooping around some arbitrary bunch of Gryfindors, trying to get them expelled? (mona amon)
The goose and gander, eh? Yes, I see what you mean. If one makes an argument based on "we don't have scenes that confirm it, therefore it didn't happen," then we have no real evidence that Snape like Lily as any more than a friend prior to the Prank, nor would have been the slightest bit jealous of James' interest in her. For that matter, we have no evidence that James was interested in Lily prior to 5th year. The one scene where we see them together prior to the Prank (on the train), James doesn't seem interested in her at all.
If no love interest, then no motive prior to the Prank for Snape to be sneaking around trying to get them expelled if the Marauders weren't doing anything to Snape up until the Prank.
But of course, I think that JKR sets up the train scene to show us that James started off as an arrogant bully trying to bully Snape, and I think that we're meant to think Snape always liked Lily, whether in friendship or fancy, enough to be jealous. But if you discard one for "lack of evidence" (when I think the train scene and other indicators give that evidence), then you have to in fairness discard the other as well for "lack of evidence".
So, here's the thing. On the one hand, supposedly James and/or Sirius bullying Snape was common knowledge between Snape and Lily - to the point that it doesn't even require mentioning - or, apparently, count as a reason for Snape to be "so obsessed with them". On the other hand, "Severus would not have cried to Lily about all the incidents" and "Lily wouldn't necessarily know." (Quinn)
Well, I think you're mixing the posts of difference forum members. I think some people are assuming Lily may not have known about the bullying and that the Marauders tended to start conflicts where teachers and other students didn't see it -- until they were emboldened perhaps after the Prank when Sirius appears to have gotten off with a slap on the wrist.
The other viewpoint is mine, because I imagine that Lily did know about the bullying, but felt it wasn't relative to the point she was trying to bring up about Mulciber and Avery, and like Hermione and Ron regarding Harry's "obsession" with Draco, felt that Snape was too obsessed with the Marauders. Further, the Prank scene -- which many consider to be a rather extreme example of bullying -- doesn't appear to have been so bad in Lily's viewpoint, who had to stifle a grin. So she could have known about bullying without seeing it as too important, and yet from an adult perspective, as well as from the victim's perspective, bullying is important.
Julia H. - Aug 19, 2008 2:07 pm (#313 of 2988)
Edited Aug 19, 2008 3:44 pm
Good points, Dryleaves, Mona and Wynnleaf.
It is certainly logical that Snape could want to expose Lupin as a werewolf only if he knew Lupin was a werewolf. In that case, however, going after him was not the best way to expose Lupin as a werewolf: Snape knowingly risking being killed or turned into a werewolf just to expose Lupin as a werewolf and all of that because he was jealous of James? It just does not seem to make any sense to me. Especially because he could have exposed Lupin as a werewolf in a much safer way by telling everyone what he knew about him until parents heard it and started to ask questions. (Prior to the Prank, nobody had told Snape to keep Lupin's condition a secret.) If, however, he did not know Lupin was a werewolf (and he did go after him during a full moon), he could hardly have planned to expose him as a werewolf.
There is something I do not understand. PoA is not handy right now but if I remember well, Lupin says Snape saw him and Madam Pomfrey going towards the tunnel before he followed Sirius's "advice" (for lack of a better word) and went into the tunnel. If Snape indeed saw Madam Pomfrey with Lupin, then he must have known that at least some adults in the school knew Lupin's secret and that would make it unlikely that he - Snape - could get Lupin expelled even if he discovered his secret. Madam Pomfrey's presence should have implied Lupin was not doing anything illegal. If Snape still went after him (himself breaking the curfew), he must have had some other purpose.
I don't think Snape would talk to either Lily or to Harry about being bullied by James (or anyone else). It may even be a part of the communication problem between Snape and Lily that neither tells the other their most personal reasons to hate the other's "friends". Lily does not tell Snape "can't you see they are targeting people like me?" and Snape does not tell Lily "they are targeting and bullying me". It is easy to understand that a boy (and a sensitive one) does not want to emphasize it or to reveal it to the girl he loves that he is being bullied because it is humiliating and if he suspects the bully is a rival, it is even worse.
Even if this is so, as an outsider, Lily may know about the fights between Snape and the Marauders (even if not from Snape) but without knowing the finer details, she may not attach particular importance to them - James bullies others as well, Snape fights back, other boys also fight with each other - so what? As Dryleaves says, being bullied is important to those who are bullied. Yet, boys are generally expected to be tough and not to complain and even to handle such situations. This may well result in the victim feeling ashamed and trying to keep the real depth of the problem a secret.
As for telling Harry about being bullied - that would be completely unlike Snape. It is bad enough when Snape discovers Harry viewing his memory (and he forbids him to repeat what he saw to anyone), he will not let James's son (of all people) or probably any other students know about other even remotely similar incidents.
severusisn'tevil - Aug 19, 2008 2:26 pm (#314 of 2988)
Dryleaves, I couldn't have said it better myself.
So is the debate about whether Severus was bullied or whether Lily knew about it? I think we have evidence that bullying took place behind closed doors at Hogwarts. Neville is a prime example: Remember the Leglocker Malfoy uses on him? Everyone laughed at that incident, too, as I recall, except Hermione who performed the countercurse. Would Severus be any different? Malfoy has no good reason to bully Neville, either, except for what he is (unconfident, and a slower learner).
It is, I admit, strange that Lily seems so clueless when Severus is supposed to be her close friend. Then later, she's a prefect. How come both the Gryffindor prefects are well-nigh useless?
rassannassar - Aug 19, 2008 2:42 pm (#315 of 2988)
But if you think about it, it seems more likely that the average prefect is kind of useless. Not everyone is a Percy or Hermione. Ron was a pretty useless prefect. And as far as I can tell, so was Ernie MacMillan. And do we know that Lily was a useless prefect? And honestly, what was she supposed to do? To say to Sirius and James that they need to stop bullying Severus would probably make things worse for him because you know that they would say that he needs Lily to stand up for him.
I think that she may not have been completely in the loop with all that was or was not being done to Snape by James and Sirius. First off, I find it highly unlikely that Snape would mention anything to Lily because he wouldn't want to seem like James was getting the best of him. If Lily knew about it, he'd want her to think he was better than letting some arrogant jerk get to him. If she didn't know about it, he probably didn't want to seem like a whiner. But what leads me to believe that she did not know about the alleged bullying is that she really didn't seem to have any other beef with James other than his arrogance. If she knew that he had been bullying Snape, her good friend, relentlessly, she probably would have thought even less of him. But then, that is also another reason that I don't think that James was relentlessly bullying Snape. I think that if over the course of those first 5 years, he had been, it would have been very unlikely that Lily would not have heard it from somewhere.
Julia H. - Aug 19, 2008 3:06 pm (#316 of 2988)
Edited Aug 19, 2008 4:15 pm
I think that if over the course of those first 5 years, he had been, it would have been very unlikely that Lily would not have heard it from somewhere. rassannassar
Well, she says James hexes just about anyone just because he can. Then I suppose the bullying becomes gradually worse and worse over the years before something as extreme as the Worst Memory (or the Prank) happens. In the beginning it was just name-calling and tripping and people may have got used to the fact that these boys simply hate each other (Slytherins and Gryffindors always do). If the victim does not complain, it may not seem to be a serious problem to others for quite a long time - and I guess Snape normally fights back so he may not seem, nor does he want to seem to be a typical victim. Besides, there is no need for daily attacks to keep up the enmity.
I agree that most prefects seem to be useless. Percy is efficient but nobody likes him. Hermione is the only really good prefect in the books but how many Hermiones are there? The other prefects are either passive or abuse their power and somehow the truly nasty guys always end up being prefects and/or head-boys (Riddle, Lucius, Draco). (James.)
wynnleaf - Aug 22, 2008 4:32 am (#317 of 2988)
Just testing to see if this even comes through. The Forum looks really strange right now and I had to log in through the Fan Fiction forum.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 22, 2008 6:44 pm (#318 of 2988)
I finally got in, but this whole site's kinda jacked up right now. So I'll try to come back later.
rassannassar - Aug 22, 2008 8:39 pm (#319 of 2988)
This is probably the opposite of helping Kip and everyone, but he said to not post on this forum yet. Check over on the thread below. It's over on the FanFiction Forum and it's where he'll say whether or not it's ok to post.
Sorry Kip.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
mona amon - Aug 25, 2008 9:47 am (#320 of 2988)
The goose and gander, eh? Yes, I see what you mean. If one makes an argument based on "we don't have scenes that confirm it, therefore it didn't happen," then we have no real evidence that Snape like Lily as any more than a friend prior to the Prank,...(Wynnleaf)
Hmm...Not exactly what I meant. The memories that Snape gives Harry have enough evidence in them to make Harry at any rate conclude that Snape always loved his mother, from the time they were small children. What we do not know is when Snape became aware that James 'fancied' Lily. I think, (and not just for the sake of argument) that it's very probable that Snape would not have been aware that James fancied Lily for a very long time. People in the Gryffindor common room would have noticed, but Snape would not have had many opportunities of observing them together.
The first time Snape's jealousy of James is indicated is in the 'Mulciber and Avery' conversation with Lily, and here it sounds like something he recently discovered. It's certainly the first time he's mentioning it to Lily. This conversation takes place shortly after the Prank, and there's not a shred of evidence to show that he had any reason to be jealous of James before that. So we are not shown that Snape's obsession with the Marauders prior to the prank was due to rivalry over Lily.
James on the other hand,knew that Snape and Lily were friends right from the first encounter with him on the Hogwarts Express. And since Lily and Sev seem to have been in the habit of walking together in the grounds, their frienship would be evident to all. A very good reason for James to pick on Snape, and that's what JKR says actually happened. "James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James' behaviour to Snape."
Quinn Crockett - Aug 25, 2008 10:56 am (#321 of 2988)
Edited Aug 25, 2008 12:00 pm
Regarding why nothing much happened until 5th year:
How about the fact that Snape had gone well out of his way to try to expose Lupin as a werewolf? (Crockett)
He didn't. He did not even know Lupin was a werewolf until he glimpsed him at the end of the tunnel. After that he didn't say anything much about it (except for some hints to Lily) because Dumbledore had forbidden it. - Mona Amon
But had not Sirius told (or hinted at or something) Snape that he should go after them? - Dryleaves
Snape was already convinced of Lupin's "condition". He tells Lily, "Every month at the full moon?" So he had to have been paying attention to Lupin for some time. Lily replies,"I know your theory..." so they have discussed it at least once before. But Snape wanted concrete evidence. Sirius told Snape he should go down the tunnel because Snape was already snooping and sneaking around after the foursome.
But he wasn't trying to get Lupin expelled. He was, as Wynnleaf (I think) mentioned earlier, likely just trying to expose Lupin to the rest of the students as a "dark" creature (or so most people believed about werewolves) inhabiting the hallowed Hogwarts grounds. He was attempting to use Lupin to get to James. Dumbledore was right to forbid any mention of it because it was hardly Lupin's fault, was it?
As for Snape "being disliked for no apparent reason" I think the reason is very apparent: He's a hateful, spiteful, sour and dour little sneak. He makes no attempt to include himself in any social group other than would-be Death Eaters. Even his own "best friend" is tired of "making excuses" for him - which I would suggest probably bear a striking resemblance to the ones I read here.
why on earth would he be snooping around some arbitrary bunch of Gryfindors, trying to get them expelled?
For the same reason Draco does it in the first book: spite. Draco hates Harry (and Gryffindor House) - even though Harry has done nothing to Draco other than exchange a few insults. So Draco goes deliberately out of his way to try to get them into trouble. Of course that backfires and he gets into trouble as well. Just as it did with Snape and the prank.
I'm not sure where the "Snape was jealous of James" as a motive for sneaking around them came from. I agree with Julia in that I don't think Snape was jealous until he had a sort of confirmation that Lily may like James back - which wasn't until after the prank, at least. Snape is visibly relieved and delighted to hear "James Potter is an arrogant toerag" come out of her mouth.
But what leads me to believe that she did not know about the alleged bullying is that she really didn't seem to have any other beef with James other than his arrogance. If she knew that he had been bullying Snape, her good friend, relentlessly, she probably would have thought even less of him. But then, that is also another reason that I don't think that James was relentlessly bullying Snape. I think that if over the course of those first 5 years, he had been, it would have been very unlikely that Lily would not have heard it from somewhere. - Yes, exactly.
wynnleaf - Aug 25, 2008 1:50 pm (#322 of 2988)
As for Snape "being disliked for no apparent reason" I think the reason is very apparent: He's a hateful, spiteful, sour and dour little sneak. He makes no attempt to include himself in any social group other than would-be Death Eaters. Even his own "best friend" is tired of "making excuses" for him - which I would suggest probably bear a striking resemblance to the ones I read here. (Quinn)
Snape, whatever he was doing, doesn't seem to have been any more disagreable, and probably less disagreeable than other Slytherins. But he was a "special case" for the Marauders. You might say that was because of James knowing Snape liked Lily and they were friends, but we know their enmity started well before the Prank, else why is Snape trying to get James' friends expelled. Yet as mona amon points out, we have no evidence that Snape knew James liked Lily prior to the Prank, nor that there was the slightest reason for him to be any more jealous of James than any other popular kid in the school.
But he wasn't trying to get Lupin expelled. He was, as Wynnleaf (I think) mentioned earlier, likely just trying to expose Lupin to the rest of the students as a "dark" creature (or so most people believed about werewolves) inhabiting the hallowed Hogwarts grounds. He was attempting to use Lupin to get to James. (Quinn)
Not exactly what I meant. Sirius and Lupin said that he was trying to get them expelled and that seems to be the reason Sirius sent him toward the tunnel. So he was trying to get them expelled, and not just James. Yet we have no evidence that he had much reason to be jealous of James, at least as regards Lily, prior to this, so why did he want to get them expelled? Unless, of course, JKR's indications of James' aggression toward Snape, starting on the train, was the reason for Snape's hatred of James -- oh yes, and James' general behavior toward people being Lily's reason for disliking him. It seems more likely, without other evidence, that Snape's reason for wanting James and his friends out of the school was the same reason Lily disliked them -- the behavior of the Marauders.
Besides, we already know these guys were up to no good. Well before the Prank, they were running around the countryside endangering others with no care at all. Sirius and Lupin agreed that there were "close calls" but that didn't stop them. These guys show plenty of signs of doing a whole lot worse than the worst we see of Snape during school as Snape apparently found a Dark prank amusing and being interested in dark arts and had dark friends.
I'm not sure where the "Snape was jealous of James" as a motive for sneaking around them came from. (Quinn)
Just as Snape was a special case for James, the Marauders were a "special case", apparently, for Snape. He brings them up specifically when wanting to counter Lily's argument that he has dark friendships. He specifically targets them to dig up dirt and get them expelled. Why? We have no particular evidence -- well, none at all, that Snape was out trying to get all and sundry expelled. Why the Marauders?
Quinn Crockett - Aug 25, 2008 2:51 pm (#323 of 2988)
Edited Aug 25, 2008 3:56 pm
I'm not sure why Snape should be regarded as "probably less disagreeable than other Slytherins". What would we be basing this opinion on, exactly? From the examples we have, I would say he is at least as "disagreeable" as any other Slytherin we've known.
Not exactly what I meant. - Oh, I see, Wynnleaf. I was referring to why Snape was so keen to expose Lupin specifically. But yeah, I might have got confused in the long interim we've had here.
Well before the Prank, they were running around the countryside endangering others with no care at all. - I guess that depends on what you mean by "well before the prank". Lupin says: "It took them the best part of three years to work out how to [become Animagi].... Finally, in our fifth year, they managed it." (PA ch 18)
We don't know exactly when "in our fifth year" this happened. In any case, in order for Snape to have noticed any kind of a pattern to what they were up to, that would mean Snape, himself, would had to have been sneaking around after the Marauders, and this is confirmed by Lupin and Sirius. But here again, we're talking about 5th year and the prank specifically as the real tipping point in their already antagonistic relationship.
And really, isn't the incident of the prank enough of a reason for them to start attacking each other? I mean, why do we really need there to be anything else? Snape believed to his dying day that Sirius was really trying to kill him with the prank. This is the only thing he ever mentions, even to Dumbledore, about why he hates Sirius so much ("Don't you remember that he tried to get me killed?"). James and Sirius, for their part, started attacking Snape for drawing attention to what they were doing, trying to get them expelled, and for nearly exposing their friend/brother's shameful secret. I mean, yeah, they already didn't like him from the moment they met. But as far as acting on that, I just don't see that they really cared about Snape one way or the other, except to taunt him with an insulting nickname.
We see Draco doing the very same thing with regard to Norbert. He and Harry have only ever traded insults. But Draco somehow knows they are sneaking out and goes well out of his way to follow the Trio and to see what they're up to. He has the same motivation of trying to get them into trouble - even though up to that point the Trio have paid Draco very little attention.
wynnleaf - Aug 25, 2008 3:47 pm (#324 of 2988)
Quinn, you're correct about when they started running around with the werewolf endangering the countryside. Still, this does show the type of guys we're talking about here. They have no regard for others, just want to do whatever they think is fun or makes them less bored, even if it endangers others. While I admit that many guys might do dangerous things, even things that endangered others, most teenage guys I know do find a true "close call" a real wake up for them and back off. The Marauders were the type that the close calls didn't bother them at all, nor even did Lupin almost biting or killing someone. None of that seems to have affected them at all. They didn't just wake up the first day of 5th year and become those types of guys. They already were that type, and then when the opportunity arose to do something fun, even if dangerous to others, they did it and kept doing with no matter how many the "close calls" or someone almost getting killed.
Okay, back to Snape
And really, isn't the incident of the prank enough of a reason for them to start attacking each other? I mean, why do we really need there to be anything else? (Quinn)
Because there had to be a motivation for Snape to want Lupin and the Marauders expelled. Sure, Snape sneaked around and eavesdropped on Dumbledore - in Voldemort's service and probably on his orders to spy on DD. Sure Snape patrols the halls of Hogwarts looking for rulebreakers, but we find through the books that this is a duty of teachers. Yes, Snape saw Petunia's letter from DD and wanted to find out why she, a muggle, was getting a letter -- and with Lily's help they read the letter. And yes, Snape "spied" on Lily, because he was a wizard kid in a muggle town and already an outsider and wanted to get to know this one magical kid he'd found. So what's the thread? Snape has a reason for all these "sneaky" things, often under orders or part of his job. We don't see him out randomly trying to dig up dirt on just anybody. If everything starts with the Prank, why was Snape looking for info on the Marauders? Why did he want them expelled? And why all of the Marauders, not just James?
Draco trying to get Harry in trouble is similar. Draco isn't out searching for how to get just anybody in trouble. He's got it in for Harry - as even DD at the end of PS/SS comments. And why? Oh, I'm sure lots of reasons - Harry rejecting his offer of friendship, Harry taking up with "blood traitors" like the Weasleys and a muggleborn, Harry being known as the kid who defeated LV. There are reasons for Draco to target Harry, and some of them are quite personal, particularly given their first few meetings.
There's a reason why Snape hated the Marauders and wanted them all expelled. What is it? I think JKR sets up their enmity from the train, which means that even though the jealousy over Lily compounded things later, it wasn't the initial reason for Snape hating the Marauders.
mona amon - Aug 25, 2008 7:27 pm (#325 of 2988)
Edited Aug 25, 2008 8:30 pm
Well said, Wynnleaf!
I'm not sure where the "Snape was jealous of James" as a motive for sneaking around them came from. (Quinn)
It was Mrs. Brisbee who suggested that jealousy over Lily was the reason for Snape wanting to get the Marauders expelled. "I think the train scene established animosity between Snape, James and Sirius, but it wasn't until fifth year that things turned really ugly, and Snape's motive for trying to get the Marauders expelled was jealousy over Lily." (Mrs. Brisbee, post#300)
Snape was already convinced of Lupin's "condition". He tells Lily, "Every month at the full moon?" So he had to have been paying attention to Lupin for some time. Lily replies,"I know your theory..." so they have discussed it at least once before. (Quinn)
This remark was made to Lily after the Prank, when Snape already knew that Lupin was a werewolf because of having seen him with his own eyes. If he had even the slightest suspicion that Lupin was a werewolf before that, he would never have gone down that tunnel when Sirius suggested it.
I guess this conversation takes place very shortly after the Prank, because Lily says that James saved Snape "the other day". I suppose that in the few days since the Prank, Snape has been doing his best to drop hints to Lily about Lupin's condition. Hence Lily's "I know your theory".
I think the train scene established animosity between Snape, James and Sirius, but it wasn't until fifth year that things turned really ugly, and Snape's motive for trying to get the Marauders expelled was jealousy over Lily. (Mrs Brisbee)
One problem I have with this theory is that it doesn't really give Snape much reason at all for trying to get Sirius, Peter, and Lupin expelled. If the only real problem between Snape and the Marauders in the first years was a rivalry over Lily, I could maybe see Snape disliking James and wanting him expelled (although supposedly Lily at that time wouldn't have dated James). But I don't see the motivation to spend so much time looking for a reason to get the others expelled, if the only problem was a Lily rivalry. JKR says that Lily was really popular and apparently a lot of guys would have liked her, but we aren't given the notion that Snape was trying to get anybody and everybody who was attracted to Lily expelled.
I just don't see jealousy over Lily as motivation enough for Snape to want to spend lots of time trying to find a reason to get Lupin, Sirius, and Peter expelled. James perhaps, the rest, no.
Besides, as I and others have said, JKR's train scene appears to me to have the intent of showing us that the enmity was started by James over nothing more than House affiliation, contained physical aggression even from the start, and gradually worked its way into greater and greater bullying.
The Worst Memory scene is really pretty extreme. The intent of the curses used could be likened to tying someone up and then humiliating them publicly. Attempting to strip someone in public is also pretty extreme. I don't think a 15 year old just suddenly uses this sort of extreme aggression without having gradually worked up to it.
Same goes for Sirius' Prank. I don't think a kid does nothing physically aggressive toward someone, and then suddenly decides to trick them into an extremely life-threatening situation.
The extreme nature of Sirius' Prank (sending someone to meet a deadly threat), and James and Sirius' attack on Snape with binding someone up, humliating them in public in an extreme way, dropping the person on their head, and trying to strip them -- kids don't generally go from an average kid with no major physically aggressive tendencies, to suddenly out of the blue doing something like that. Especially the Worst Memory scene which James and Sirius do, not out of anger (which one might imagine could possibly change a kid who had never done anything extreme), but out of boredom. Or Sirius' Prank which he seems to have done as a lark.
mona amon - Aug 18, 2008 4:44 am (#302 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 5:44 am
Er, Mrs. Brisbee, if you are still reading this thread, why do you think the Marauders did nothing to Snape prior to the prank, and then suddenly started bullying him after that? What is it about the Prank that made them change their behaviour towards Snape so drastically?
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 18, 2008 7:49 am (#303 of 2988)
Er, Mrs. Brisbee, if you are still reading this thread , why do you think the Marauders did nothing to Snape prior to the prank, and then suddenly started bullying him after that? What is it about the Prank that made them change their behaviour towards Snape so drastically?-- mona amon
Well, since there are only 2 posts so far ....
I think Snape and James (and Sirius) hated each other due to House affiliation from day one. I just don't think Snape was the target of relentless bullying.
My opinion is based on the sequence of events laid out by Rowling. In Snape's memory after the Prank, Lily says, "Why are you so obsessed with them anyway?" I can't see why she would ask that question if Snape had been bullied by them for four straight years. If that were the case, the reasons for his obsession with them should be obvious.
In the same memory Snape straight up gives his concern that James fancies Lily. So that is the only motive presented so far for Snape's action.
Again, it all comes down to the order the action takes place in.
The rest of it is probably better discussed on James's or Sirius's thread, because it goes to their motives rather than Snape's.
severusisn'tevil - Aug 18, 2008 8:14 am (#304 of 2988)
Except that Severus would not have cried to Lily about all the incidents. It seems to me quite likely that Severus was frequently the Marauders' target. I mean, not only is a prime target in and of himself---doesn't fit in, odd clothes, secondhand books, and a desire to give as good as he gets. Someone on the thread previously described him as a "scrapper" which seems to me to fit rather well. He is the scrapper that few people likes. But Lily wouldn't necessarily know. Most bullying isn't done as in the open as his WM. And talking about it to the girl he liked would have probably increased his shame.
And then there's Sirius's comment about "being bored." Is that meant to convey that it was a random act of bullying? From how pleased the J and S seem about the turn of events, I don't think so. Severus can't be the only oddball. They could just as easily have chosen someone else if it had *only* been boredom. Ah well.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 18, 2008 8:27 am (#305 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 9:28 am
Except that Severus would not have cried to Lily about all the incidents.
**sigh**
But now we are back to it being secret bullying, with no evidence that it was a secret, or that there was bullying.
Since the Attempted Trip is touted by many as the first act of bullying, please note that it was done with Lily right there.
SWM is done with Lily right there.
According to Sirius and Lupin, James took care not to hex Snape when Lily was around only after they were going out, which wasn't until seventh year.
If Snape was being bullied for those four years, then it seems remarkable to me that Lily is totally oblivious about it.
wynnleaf - Aug 18, 2008 8:44 am (#306 of 2988)
If Snape was being bullied for those four years, then it seems remarkable to me that Lily is totally oblivious about it. (Mrs Brisbee)
That's a valid question, but I don't think Lily's comments necessarily mean that she's oblivious to any bullying James and Sirius might do.
A similar example are Hermione and Ron, who think that Harry is obsessed with digging up wrongdoing on Draco's part in HBP. Yet we know that they are well aware that Draco attacked Harry at the start of HBP, has a dad who's a Death Eater, tried with his friends to attack them all at the end of OOTP, and in general hates Harry. Yet they still think Harry is obsessed with Draco.
So is there any other info that would lead us to believe Lily knew the Marauders were bullies?
Yes. 1. She wouldn't date James. 2. She comments on James being an arrogant "toerag" (like a slimeball, kind of?). 3. The fear the other kids display the moment James and Sirius start attacking Snape in the Worst Memory scene, as though they know that a big confrontation is about to take place. 4. Lily's observation that at least the Marauders don't do Dark Magic. For Lily to have any comprehension of what Snape might mean when he asks his question about how the Dark Magic joke was so different from what James and his gang get up to, Lily has to already know that James and Co. do a lot of wrong things. She doesn't answer Snape with "what are you talking about? James doesn't do much of anything bad!" She seems to understand that there is a comparison to be made, it just that the Marauders don't do Dark Magic.
All my other arguments as well... no use repeating them. I feel like a debator: "I'd like to pull my earlier arguments over as well."
mona amon - Aug 18, 2008 9:34 am (#307 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 10:43 am
My opinion is based on the sequence of events laid out by Rowling. In Snape's memory after the Prank, Lily says, "Why are you so obsessed with them anyway?" I can't see why she would ask that question if Snape had been bullied by them for four straight years. If that were the case, the reasons for his obsession with them should be obvious.
I do not think it would be obvious to Lily. She may not have thought the bullying was a big deal, especially since I doubt whether Snape ever told her anything about it. (ETA: She doesn't seem to think what happens in SWM is a big deal, she has to hide a smile)
And if Snape goes sneaking around the Marauders hoping to get them expelled only because of rivalry over Lily, well, the same motive can be applied to James. If we take into account the psychology of the individual (came here straight after putting down a Hercule Poirot mystery ), is it likely that James, who bullies others for apparantly no reason at all, is going to leave this greasy Slytherin alone when he is so friendly with Lily?
In JKR's mind this was a reason for James's 'behaviour' towards Snape.
From the Bloomsbury Webchat-
Rachel Nell: Jkr, thank you for such amazing books! I would like to know how come noone seemed to know that lily and snape were friends in school they were obviously meeting for chats, etc didnt james know their past J.K. Rowling: Thank you for your thank you! J.K. Rowling: Yes, it was known that they were friendly and then stopped being friends. Nothing more than that would be widely known. J.K. Rowling: James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James' behaviour to Snape.
I'll take the rest of it to the James thread tomorrow
EDIT: Crossposted with everyone after Mrs. Brisbee's post#303.
Julia H. - Aug 18, 2008 10:31 am (#308 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 11:33 am
And why should you change yourself to ingratiate yourself with others? - Because the world doesn't revolve around you and if you want to be a part of it, then you are the one who needs to change your behavior; the rest of the world certainly isn't going to adapt just for you. (Quinn)
While I agree with this statement in general, I don't think it can be applied to the train scene. Why should Snape suddenly change his opinion just because there is another kid (one he does not know and may not like) who has a different opinion? James could just as well change his. It would be a different case if, heading for Hogwarts, Snape would be praising Durmstrang, for example, over Hogwarts. In that situation, it would be a realistic expectation for him to show some initial loyalty towards the school they are all going to go. However, Snape is only talking about one of the houses in the school, which is neither banned nor is officially declared as "undesirable". Choosing Slytherin, Snape chooses one of the houses of a larger community they are all going to belong to.
Apart from that, I agree that Snape does not know very well how to adapt to his environment and yes, he has to pay the price. But why doesn't he know that? He is an only child (it is always more difficult for an only child); he is a wizard kid who has so far lived in a muggle environment, where he is an "oddball" - not because others know that he is a wizard but because of the poverty of his family and his strange, mismatched clothes. When he first goes to Hogwarts, he is already used to being an oddball. The "spying" behind the bushes is evidence for that: he does not know how to get acquainted with another child, how to make friends and he certainly does not know (yet) how to hide his feelings when it would be wise to hide them.
But later, at Hogwarts, I think he does try to adapt to the others, to his environment, i.e., to his most immediate environment, Slytherin House and his peers there. He imitates their way of speaking and repeats their opinions. (That is what teenagers normally do.) These are desperate attempts to adapt, to integrate, because he wants to have friends - and the results are disastrous. He will never try it again in his life.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 18, 2008 10:46 am (#309 of 2988)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 11:55 am
There's a huge difference in adapting to fit in with the overall group norms or with a general culture (like a school culture). It's quite another to "adapt" to one or two specific other people who simply don't like you because you're "odd" or because you exist. What exactly is one supposed to change? - Wynnleaf
You have taken my comment out of context. I never said anyone should "adapt to specific people". In fact, I specifically said, "I'm not suggesting anyone should suck up to the 'cool' kids or try to be popular". The comment was in response to the idea of someone choosing to isolate themselves emotionally while at the same time bemoaning their lack of intimacy with anyone around them.
I understand that you are extremely sensitive about the idea of bullying, Wynnleaf, because of your own experiences with it. However, like Mrs Brisbee, I just don't see any evidence that this almost daily ritual of "Snape Hunting" is what actually took place.
----------
Harry's experience with the Sorting Hat, while it does show that the students can choose which House they want, does not appear to have been common knowledge. Even so, Snape has never said anything "playfully". No, he's not threatening Lily about being in Slytherin - he's not saying, "You better be in Slytherin or else..." But he is certainly quite adamant in his desire. In any case, I don't really think James thought he was sticking up for Lily on the train, just expressing his personal views about Slytherin House.
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I do not think I share your view of the severity of the spying Snape does in the playground scene. I am sure Petunia does not like it, but I do not know if a child "spying" on other children is to be regarded as "suspicious". - Dryleaves
I don't think it was suspicious. We've all played the "spy on so-and-so" game. But Petunia never has and she does find this behavior questionable.
What is it about the Prank that made them change their behaviour towards Snape so drastically? - Mona Amon
How about the fact that Snape had gone well out of his way to try to expose Lupin as a werewolf?
----------
So, here's the thing. On the one hand, supposedly James and/or Sirius bullying Snape was common knowledge between Snape and Lily - to the point that it doesn't even require mentioning - or, apparently, count as a reason for Snape to be "so obsessed with them". On the other hand, "Severus would not have cried to Lily about all the incidents" and "Lily wouldn't necessarily know."
So which is it? Because it can't be both. I agree with Mrs Brisbee that there just isn't any evidence of regular "attacks" on Snape prior to their 5th year.
"James Potter is an arrogant toerag"- Lily met Sirius and James at the same time Snape did. She has her own independent opinion of James that apparently never changed until they were much older. She clearly lists her reasons for thinking this about him during the Worst Memory. None of these include anything he has ever done to Snape.
"The fear the other kids display the moment James and Sirius start attacking Snape in the Worst Memory scene, as though they know that a big confrontation is about to take place. - Well, they do know a big confrontation is about to take place. James pretty much announces it to all and sundry. But no one displays any "fear". The text says only, "Some of them looked apprehensive". I suppose one could call that a synonym for "fear"; but even these "apprehensive" onlookers stuck around to watch.
Where are the detention records? - If Snape was bullied so often by James and/or Sirius, why not show Harry the evidence? If Snape was bullied so often by James and/or Sirius, surely there would have at been at least one occasion when the boys had to serve detention for it, seeing as how James and Sirius seemed to have no qualms about waving their wands around right out in public. And surely Snape would have wanted Harry to see that. But nope. Out of BOXES of records chosen by Snape personally specifically for the purpose, there is not one record of any incident involving Snape for Harry to copy.
"They don't use Dark Magic, though." - I think this speaks for itself. Again, James and Sirius didn't seem to take the "no magic in the corridors" rule very seriously. Like the Weasley twins, they were very out in the open with what they got up to. Lily did know that "James and Co. do a lot of wrong things". But none of them seem to have involved Snape.
Dryleaves - Aug 19, 2008 2:53 am (#310 of 2988)
Edited Aug 19, 2008 4:03 am
How about the fact that Snape had gone well out of his way to try to expose Lupin as a werewolf? (Quinn)
But had not Sirius told (or hinted at or something) Snape that he should go after them? I know you will say that Snape made his own decision to go there, which of course is true, but Sirius surely risked the exposure of his own friend, so maybe the Prank would also have created some conflict within the Marauders.
Even if Snape is a person who is certainly not nice and have done things wrong in his life, I think that many of the scenes with Snape the child show us someone who is disliked not primarily because of what he does, but for what he is, or because he is, and I do not think this is unimportant. His parents are not particularly interested in him, Petunia is suspicious because he comes from a certain part of town, the Marauders may not go on daily Snape-hunting, but when we see them in action they seem never to have any motives more explicit than House-enmity, boredom and the fact that Snape exists. (And as for the fact that all the memories are his own, who else's could they be? I think pensieve memories are a narrative device from the author's side.)
This maybe sorts under the boo-hoo poor Sev-department , but to me an important part of the character is this total conflict within between love and hate, revenge and protection, being disliked for no apparent reason other than his own existence and actually being guilty of at least one horrible action with disastrous consequences.
mona amon - Aug 19, 2008 3:39 am (#311 of 2988)
Edited Aug 19, 2008 4:48 am
How about the fact that Snape had gone well out of his way to try to expose Lupin as a werewolf? (Quinn)
He didn't. He did not even know Lupin was a werewolf until he glimpsed him at the end of the tunnel. After that he didn't say anything much about it (except for some hints to Lily) because Dumbledore had forbidden it.
I just don't see any evidence that this almost daily ritual of "Snape Hunting" is what actually took place.
I don't think anyone here suggested that it was almost daily, or even tried to guess about the frequency of the attacks. Most of us feel he was bullied enough to have a reason for snooping around the Marauders, trying to find out what they were upto in the hope of getting them expelled.
So, here's the thing. On the one hand, supposedly James and/or Sirius bullying Snape was common knowledge between Snape and Lily - to the point that it doesn't even require mentioning - or, apparently, count as a reason for Snape to be "so obsessed with them". On the other hand, "Severus would not have cried to Lily about all the incidents" and "Lily wouldn't necessarily know."
Not sure I understand what you are saying Quinn, but I suppose you mean that Lily would not have to ask Snape why he was so obsessed with the Marauders if he was getting bullied by them.
I feel it doesn't prove that Snape was not being bullied. It only means that he did not tell Lily about it. Lily may have seen skirmishes between the Marauders and Snape, but without any input from Snape, she would not have realised how he felt about it, and need not have taken it seriously.
Moreover, let us remember that she was trying to talk to Snape about Mulciber and Avery, and he was trying to bring Potter into the conversation, much to her irritation, so the 'obsessed' remark has to be taken in this context.
If Snape was bullied so often by James and/or Sirius, surely there would have at been at least one occasion when the boys had to serve detention for it, seeing as how James and Sirius seemed to have no qualms about waving their wands around right out in public. And surely Snape would have wanted Harry to see that.
No, Snape certainly would not have wanted Harry to see that. He completely lost it when he found that Harry had seen the underpants incident. Getting bullied is humiliating. If there were any detention records like that I feel sure he would have removed them.
But I think it was more likely there weren't any. The detention cards that Harry was sorting out were not all James' and Sirius's, only some of them were. They must have taken good care to see that there were no teachers around when they picked on Snape.
Lily did know that "James and Co. do a lot of wrong things". But none of them seem to have involved Snape.
We do not know this. She never actually asks him, "what did the Marauders do to you?" So she's probably including the things they did to Snape (that she knows about) in her general awareness of their wrong doings.
---------------
I just thought of something.
If we cannot prove that James and the others bullied Snape until the prank because there is no evidence, neither can we prove that Snape suspected that James fancied Lily until after the Prank. So if the Marauders did nothing to Snape during this period, why on earth would he be snooping around some arbitrary bunch of Gryfindors, trying to get them expelled?
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ETA: Well said, Dryleaves!
wynnleaf - Aug 19, 2008 5:27 am (#312 of 2988)
If we cannot prove that James and the others bullied Snape until the prank because there is no evidence, neither can we prove that Snape suspected that James fancied Lily until after the Prank. So if the Marauders did nothing to Snape during this period, why on earth would he be snooping around some arbitrary bunch of Gryfindors, trying to get them expelled? (mona amon)
The goose and gander, eh? Yes, I see what you mean. If one makes an argument based on "we don't have scenes that confirm it, therefore it didn't happen," then we have no real evidence that Snape like Lily as any more than a friend prior to the Prank, nor would have been the slightest bit jealous of James' interest in her. For that matter, we have no evidence that James was interested in Lily prior to 5th year. The one scene where we see them together prior to the Prank (on the train), James doesn't seem interested in her at all.
If no love interest, then no motive prior to the Prank for Snape to be sneaking around trying to get them expelled if the Marauders weren't doing anything to Snape up until the Prank.
But of course, I think that JKR sets up the train scene to show us that James started off as an arrogant bully trying to bully Snape, and I think that we're meant to think Snape always liked Lily, whether in friendship or fancy, enough to be jealous. But if you discard one for "lack of evidence" (when I think the train scene and other indicators give that evidence), then you have to in fairness discard the other as well for "lack of evidence".
So, here's the thing. On the one hand, supposedly James and/or Sirius bullying Snape was common knowledge between Snape and Lily - to the point that it doesn't even require mentioning - or, apparently, count as a reason for Snape to be "so obsessed with them". On the other hand, "Severus would not have cried to Lily about all the incidents" and "Lily wouldn't necessarily know." (Quinn)
Well, I think you're mixing the posts of difference forum members. I think some people are assuming Lily may not have known about the bullying and that the Marauders tended to start conflicts where teachers and other students didn't see it -- until they were emboldened perhaps after the Prank when Sirius appears to have gotten off with a slap on the wrist.
The other viewpoint is mine, because I imagine that Lily did know about the bullying, but felt it wasn't relative to the point she was trying to bring up about Mulciber and Avery, and like Hermione and Ron regarding Harry's "obsession" with Draco, felt that Snape was too obsessed with the Marauders. Further, the Prank scene -- which many consider to be a rather extreme example of bullying -- doesn't appear to have been so bad in Lily's viewpoint, who had to stifle a grin. So she could have known about bullying without seeing it as too important, and yet from an adult perspective, as well as from the victim's perspective, bullying is important.
Julia H. - Aug 19, 2008 2:07 pm (#313 of 2988)
Edited Aug 19, 2008 3:44 pm
Good points, Dryleaves, Mona and Wynnleaf.
It is certainly logical that Snape could want to expose Lupin as a werewolf only if he knew Lupin was a werewolf. In that case, however, going after him was not the best way to expose Lupin as a werewolf: Snape knowingly risking being killed or turned into a werewolf just to expose Lupin as a werewolf and all of that because he was jealous of James? It just does not seem to make any sense to me. Especially because he could have exposed Lupin as a werewolf in a much safer way by telling everyone what he knew about him until parents heard it and started to ask questions. (Prior to the Prank, nobody had told Snape to keep Lupin's condition a secret.) If, however, he did not know Lupin was a werewolf (and he did go after him during a full moon), he could hardly have planned to expose him as a werewolf.
There is something I do not understand. PoA is not handy right now but if I remember well, Lupin says Snape saw him and Madam Pomfrey going towards the tunnel before he followed Sirius's "advice" (for lack of a better word) and went into the tunnel. If Snape indeed saw Madam Pomfrey with Lupin, then he must have known that at least some adults in the school knew Lupin's secret and that would make it unlikely that he - Snape - could get Lupin expelled even if he discovered his secret. Madam Pomfrey's presence should have implied Lupin was not doing anything illegal. If Snape still went after him (himself breaking the curfew), he must have had some other purpose.
I don't think Snape would talk to either Lily or to Harry about being bullied by James (or anyone else). It may even be a part of the communication problem between Snape and Lily that neither tells the other their most personal reasons to hate the other's "friends". Lily does not tell Snape "can't you see they are targeting people like me?" and Snape does not tell Lily "they are targeting and bullying me". It is easy to understand that a boy (and a sensitive one) does not want to emphasize it or to reveal it to the girl he loves that he is being bullied because it is humiliating and if he suspects the bully is a rival, it is even worse.
Even if this is so, as an outsider, Lily may know about the fights between Snape and the Marauders (even if not from Snape) but without knowing the finer details, she may not attach particular importance to them - James bullies others as well, Snape fights back, other boys also fight with each other - so what? As Dryleaves says, being bullied is important to those who are bullied. Yet, boys are generally expected to be tough and not to complain and even to handle such situations. This may well result in the victim feeling ashamed and trying to keep the real depth of the problem a secret.
As for telling Harry about being bullied - that would be completely unlike Snape. It is bad enough when Snape discovers Harry viewing his memory (and he forbids him to repeat what he saw to anyone), he will not let James's son (of all people) or probably any other students know about other even remotely similar incidents.
severusisn'tevil - Aug 19, 2008 2:26 pm (#314 of 2988)
Dryleaves, I couldn't have said it better myself.
So is the debate about whether Severus was bullied or whether Lily knew about it? I think we have evidence that bullying took place behind closed doors at Hogwarts. Neville is a prime example: Remember the Leglocker Malfoy uses on him? Everyone laughed at that incident, too, as I recall, except Hermione who performed the countercurse. Would Severus be any different? Malfoy has no good reason to bully Neville, either, except for what he is (unconfident, and a slower learner).
It is, I admit, strange that Lily seems so clueless when Severus is supposed to be her close friend. Then later, she's a prefect. How come both the Gryffindor prefects are well-nigh useless?
rassannassar - Aug 19, 2008 2:42 pm (#315 of 2988)
But if you think about it, it seems more likely that the average prefect is kind of useless. Not everyone is a Percy or Hermione. Ron was a pretty useless prefect. And as far as I can tell, so was Ernie MacMillan. And do we know that Lily was a useless prefect? And honestly, what was she supposed to do? To say to Sirius and James that they need to stop bullying Severus would probably make things worse for him because you know that they would say that he needs Lily to stand up for him.
I think that she may not have been completely in the loop with all that was or was not being done to Snape by James and Sirius. First off, I find it highly unlikely that Snape would mention anything to Lily because he wouldn't want to seem like James was getting the best of him. If Lily knew about it, he'd want her to think he was better than letting some arrogant jerk get to him. If she didn't know about it, he probably didn't want to seem like a whiner. But what leads me to believe that she did not know about the alleged bullying is that she really didn't seem to have any other beef with James other than his arrogance. If she knew that he had been bullying Snape, her good friend, relentlessly, she probably would have thought even less of him. But then, that is also another reason that I don't think that James was relentlessly bullying Snape. I think that if over the course of those first 5 years, he had been, it would have been very unlikely that Lily would not have heard it from somewhere.
Julia H. - Aug 19, 2008 3:06 pm (#316 of 2988)
Edited Aug 19, 2008 4:15 pm
I think that if over the course of those first 5 years, he had been, it would have been very unlikely that Lily would not have heard it from somewhere. rassannassar
Well, she says James hexes just about anyone just because he can. Then I suppose the bullying becomes gradually worse and worse over the years before something as extreme as the Worst Memory (or the Prank) happens. In the beginning it was just name-calling and tripping and people may have got used to the fact that these boys simply hate each other (Slytherins and Gryffindors always do). If the victim does not complain, it may not seem to be a serious problem to others for quite a long time - and I guess Snape normally fights back so he may not seem, nor does he want to seem to be a typical victim. Besides, there is no need for daily attacks to keep up the enmity.
I agree that most prefects seem to be useless. Percy is efficient but nobody likes him. Hermione is the only really good prefect in the books but how many Hermiones are there? The other prefects are either passive or abuse their power and somehow the truly nasty guys always end up being prefects and/or head-boys (Riddle, Lucius, Draco). (James.)
wynnleaf - Aug 22, 2008 4:32 am (#317 of 2988)
Just testing to see if this even comes through. The Forum looks really strange right now and I had to log in through the Fan Fiction forum.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 22, 2008 6:44 pm (#318 of 2988)
I finally got in, but this whole site's kinda jacked up right now. So I'll try to come back later.
rassannassar - Aug 22, 2008 8:39 pm (#319 of 2988)
This is probably the opposite of helping Kip and everyone, but he said to not post on this forum yet. Check over on the thread below. It's over on the FanFiction Forum and it's where he'll say whether or not it's ok to post.
Sorry Kip.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
mona amon - Aug 25, 2008 9:47 am (#320 of 2988)
The goose and gander, eh? Yes, I see what you mean. If one makes an argument based on "we don't have scenes that confirm it, therefore it didn't happen," then we have no real evidence that Snape like Lily as any more than a friend prior to the Prank,...(Wynnleaf)
Hmm...Not exactly what I meant. The memories that Snape gives Harry have enough evidence in them to make Harry at any rate conclude that Snape always loved his mother, from the time they were small children. What we do not know is when Snape became aware that James 'fancied' Lily. I think, (and not just for the sake of argument) that it's very probable that Snape would not have been aware that James fancied Lily for a very long time. People in the Gryffindor common room would have noticed, but Snape would not have had many opportunities of observing them together.
The first time Snape's jealousy of James is indicated is in the 'Mulciber and Avery' conversation with Lily, and here it sounds like something he recently discovered. It's certainly the first time he's mentioning it to Lily. This conversation takes place shortly after the Prank, and there's not a shred of evidence to show that he had any reason to be jealous of James before that. So we are not shown that Snape's obsession with the Marauders prior to the prank was due to rivalry over Lily.
James on the other hand,knew that Snape and Lily were friends right from the first encounter with him on the Hogwarts Express. And since Lily and Sev seem to have been in the habit of walking together in the grounds, their frienship would be evident to all. A very good reason for James to pick on Snape, and that's what JKR says actually happened. "James always suspected Snape harboured deeper feelings for Lily, which was a factor in James' behaviour to Snape."
Quinn Crockett - Aug 25, 2008 10:56 am (#321 of 2988)
Edited Aug 25, 2008 12:00 pm
Regarding why nothing much happened until 5th year:
How about the fact that Snape had gone well out of his way to try to expose Lupin as a werewolf? (Crockett)
He didn't. He did not even know Lupin was a werewolf until he glimpsed him at the end of the tunnel. After that he didn't say anything much about it (except for some hints to Lily) because Dumbledore had forbidden it. - Mona Amon
But had not Sirius told (or hinted at or something) Snape that he should go after them? - Dryleaves
Snape was already convinced of Lupin's "condition". He tells Lily, "Every month at the full moon?" So he had to have been paying attention to Lupin for some time. Lily replies,"I know your theory..." so they have discussed it at least once before. But Snape wanted concrete evidence. Sirius told Snape he should go down the tunnel because Snape was already snooping and sneaking around after the foursome.
But he wasn't trying to get Lupin expelled. He was, as Wynnleaf (I think) mentioned earlier, likely just trying to expose Lupin to the rest of the students as a "dark" creature (or so most people believed about werewolves) inhabiting the hallowed Hogwarts grounds. He was attempting to use Lupin to get to James. Dumbledore was right to forbid any mention of it because it was hardly Lupin's fault, was it?
As for Snape "being disliked for no apparent reason" I think the reason is very apparent: He's a hateful, spiteful, sour and dour little sneak. He makes no attempt to include himself in any social group other than would-be Death Eaters. Even his own "best friend" is tired of "making excuses" for him - which I would suggest probably bear a striking resemblance to the ones I read here.
why on earth would he be snooping around some arbitrary bunch of Gryfindors, trying to get them expelled?
For the same reason Draco does it in the first book: spite. Draco hates Harry (and Gryffindor House) - even though Harry has done nothing to Draco other than exchange a few insults. So Draco goes deliberately out of his way to try to get them into trouble. Of course that backfires and he gets into trouble as well. Just as it did with Snape and the prank.
I'm not sure where the "Snape was jealous of James" as a motive for sneaking around them came from. I agree with Julia in that I don't think Snape was jealous until he had a sort of confirmation that Lily may like James back - which wasn't until after the prank, at least. Snape is visibly relieved and delighted to hear "James Potter is an arrogant toerag" come out of her mouth.
But what leads me to believe that she did not know about the alleged bullying is that she really didn't seem to have any other beef with James other than his arrogance. If she knew that he had been bullying Snape, her good friend, relentlessly, she probably would have thought even less of him. But then, that is also another reason that I don't think that James was relentlessly bullying Snape. I think that if over the course of those first 5 years, he had been, it would have been very unlikely that Lily would not have heard it from somewhere. - Yes, exactly.
wynnleaf - Aug 25, 2008 1:50 pm (#322 of 2988)
As for Snape "being disliked for no apparent reason" I think the reason is very apparent: He's a hateful, spiteful, sour and dour little sneak. He makes no attempt to include himself in any social group other than would-be Death Eaters. Even his own "best friend" is tired of "making excuses" for him - which I would suggest probably bear a striking resemblance to the ones I read here. (Quinn)
Snape, whatever he was doing, doesn't seem to have been any more disagreable, and probably less disagreeable than other Slytherins. But he was a "special case" for the Marauders. You might say that was because of James knowing Snape liked Lily and they were friends, but we know their enmity started well before the Prank, else why is Snape trying to get James' friends expelled. Yet as mona amon points out, we have no evidence that Snape knew James liked Lily prior to the Prank, nor that there was the slightest reason for him to be any more jealous of James than any other popular kid in the school.
But he wasn't trying to get Lupin expelled. He was, as Wynnleaf (I think) mentioned earlier, likely just trying to expose Lupin to the rest of the students as a "dark" creature (or so most people believed about werewolves) inhabiting the hallowed Hogwarts grounds. He was attempting to use Lupin to get to James. (Quinn)
Not exactly what I meant. Sirius and Lupin said that he was trying to get them expelled and that seems to be the reason Sirius sent him toward the tunnel. So he was trying to get them expelled, and not just James. Yet we have no evidence that he had much reason to be jealous of James, at least as regards Lily, prior to this, so why did he want to get them expelled? Unless, of course, JKR's indications of James' aggression toward Snape, starting on the train, was the reason for Snape's hatred of James -- oh yes, and James' general behavior toward people being Lily's reason for disliking him. It seems more likely, without other evidence, that Snape's reason for wanting James and his friends out of the school was the same reason Lily disliked them -- the behavior of the Marauders.
Besides, we already know these guys were up to no good. Well before the Prank, they were running around the countryside endangering others with no care at all. Sirius and Lupin agreed that there were "close calls" but that didn't stop them. These guys show plenty of signs of doing a whole lot worse than the worst we see of Snape during school as Snape apparently found a Dark prank amusing and being interested in dark arts and had dark friends.
I'm not sure where the "Snape was jealous of James" as a motive for sneaking around them came from. (Quinn)
Just as Snape was a special case for James, the Marauders were a "special case", apparently, for Snape. He brings them up specifically when wanting to counter Lily's argument that he has dark friendships. He specifically targets them to dig up dirt and get them expelled. Why? We have no particular evidence -- well, none at all, that Snape was out trying to get all and sundry expelled. Why the Marauders?
Quinn Crockett - Aug 25, 2008 2:51 pm (#323 of 2988)
Edited Aug 25, 2008 3:56 pm
I'm not sure why Snape should be regarded as "probably less disagreeable than other Slytherins". What would we be basing this opinion on, exactly? From the examples we have, I would say he is at least as "disagreeable" as any other Slytherin we've known.
Not exactly what I meant. - Oh, I see, Wynnleaf. I was referring to why Snape was so keen to expose Lupin specifically. But yeah, I might have got confused in the long interim we've had here.
Well before the Prank, they were running around the countryside endangering others with no care at all. - I guess that depends on what you mean by "well before the prank". Lupin says: "It took them the best part of three years to work out how to [become Animagi].... Finally, in our fifth year, they managed it." (PA ch 18)
We don't know exactly when "in our fifth year" this happened. In any case, in order for Snape to have noticed any kind of a pattern to what they were up to, that would mean Snape, himself, would had to have been sneaking around after the Marauders, and this is confirmed by Lupin and Sirius. But here again, we're talking about 5th year and the prank specifically as the real tipping point in their already antagonistic relationship.
And really, isn't the incident of the prank enough of a reason for them to start attacking each other? I mean, why do we really need there to be anything else? Snape believed to his dying day that Sirius was really trying to kill him with the prank. This is the only thing he ever mentions, even to Dumbledore, about why he hates Sirius so much ("Don't you remember that he tried to get me killed?"). James and Sirius, for their part, started attacking Snape for drawing attention to what they were doing, trying to get them expelled, and for nearly exposing their friend/brother's shameful secret. I mean, yeah, they already didn't like him from the moment they met. But as far as acting on that, I just don't see that they really cared about Snape one way or the other, except to taunt him with an insulting nickname.
We see Draco doing the very same thing with regard to Norbert. He and Harry have only ever traded insults. But Draco somehow knows they are sneaking out and goes well out of his way to follow the Trio and to see what they're up to. He has the same motivation of trying to get them into trouble - even though up to that point the Trio have paid Draco very little attention.
wynnleaf - Aug 25, 2008 3:47 pm (#324 of 2988)
Quinn, you're correct about when they started running around with the werewolf endangering the countryside. Still, this does show the type of guys we're talking about here. They have no regard for others, just want to do whatever they think is fun or makes them less bored, even if it endangers others. While I admit that many guys might do dangerous things, even things that endangered others, most teenage guys I know do find a true "close call" a real wake up for them and back off. The Marauders were the type that the close calls didn't bother them at all, nor even did Lupin almost biting or killing someone. None of that seems to have affected them at all. They didn't just wake up the first day of 5th year and become those types of guys. They already were that type, and then when the opportunity arose to do something fun, even if dangerous to others, they did it and kept doing with no matter how many the "close calls" or someone almost getting killed.
Okay, back to Snape
And really, isn't the incident of the prank enough of a reason for them to start attacking each other? I mean, why do we really need there to be anything else? (Quinn)
Because there had to be a motivation for Snape to want Lupin and the Marauders expelled. Sure, Snape sneaked around and eavesdropped on Dumbledore - in Voldemort's service and probably on his orders to spy on DD. Sure Snape patrols the halls of Hogwarts looking for rulebreakers, but we find through the books that this is a duty of teachers. Yes, Snape saw Petunia's letter from DD and wanted to find out why she, a muggle, was getting a letter -- and with Lily's help they read the letter. And yes, Snape "spied" on Lily, because he was a wizard kid in a muggle town and already an outsider and wanted to get to know this one magical kid he'd found. So what's the thread? Snape has a reason for all these "sneaky" things, often under orders or part of his job. We don't see him out randomly trying to dig up dirt on just anybody. If everything starts with the Prank, why was Snape looking for info on the Marauders? Why did he want them expelled? And why all of the Marauders, not just James?
Draco trying to get Harry in trouble is similar. Draco isn't out searching for how to get just anybody in trouble. He's got it in for Harry - as even DD at the end of PS/SS comments. And why? Oh, I'm sure lots of reasons - Harry rejecting his offer of friendship, Harry taking up with "blood traitors" like the Weasleys and a muggleborn, Harry being known as the kid who defeated LV. There are reasons for Draco to target Harry, and some of them are quite personal, particularly given their first few meetings.
There's a reason why Snape hated the Marauders and wanted them all expelled. What is it? I think JKR sets up their enmity from the train, which means that even though the jealousy over Lily compounded things later, it wasn't the initial reason for Snape hating the Marauders.
mona amon - Aug 25, 2008 7:27 pm (#325 of 2988)
Edited Aug 25, 2008 8:30 pm
Well said, Wynnleaf!
I'm not sure where the "Snape was jealous of James" as a motive for sneaking around them came from. (Quinn)
It was Mrs. Brisbee who suggested that jealousy over Lily was the reason for Snape wanting to get the Marauders expelled. "I think the train scene established animosity between Snape, James and Sirius, but it wasn't until fifth year that things turned really ugly, and Snape's motive for trying to get the Marauders expelled was jealousy over Lily." (Mrs. Brisbee, post#300)
Snape was already convinced of Lupin's "condition". He tells Lily, "Every month at the full moon?" So he had to have been paying attention to Lupin for some time. Lily replies,"I know your theory..." so they have discussed it at least once before. (Quinn)
This remark was made to Lily after the Prank, when Snape already knew that Lupin was a werewolf because of having seen him with his own eyes. If he had even the slightest suspicion that Lupin was a werewolf before that, he would never have gone down that tunnel when Sirius suggested it.
I guess this conversation takes place very shortly after the Prank, because Lily says that James saved Snape "the other day". I suppose that in the few days since the Prank, Snape has been doing his best to drop hints to Lily about Lupin's condition. Hence Lily's "I know your theory".
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wynnleaf - Aug 26, 2008 2:37 am (#326 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 3:41 am
I felt from the conversation that Snape had suspected Lupin was a werewolf and had mentioned it to Lily before the Prank. But even there you have to ask "Why?" Sirius and Lupin don't say that Snape as just targeting Lupin to find out what he was up to. They say he was trying to get any or all of them expelled and that was why he was trying to find out what they were up to, which included where Lupin was going every month. And Snape, if I recall, mentions it in talking with Lily -- what they get up to each month, not just Lupin. So we're still back at the "why". Why did Snape care so much about getting the entire Marauder gang expelled? Simple jealousy over James liking Lily, especially when she hadn't yet responded to James, doesn't make sense. Yes, that could account for some general sniping at James' friends, but not for wanting to get them all expelled. It had to be a lot more than rivalry over a girl that we have no evidence James even cared about until 5th year and who wasn't clearly interested in James until later. Even DD compares Harry and Draco's dislike to Snape and James, right from 1st year, and the Harry/Draco rivalry has nothing to do with a girl and mostly to do with general dislike - even more than differences over Dark interests. Harry disliked Draco's arrogance and bullying behavior and let Draco know it publicly, and Draco responded with disliking Harry and wanting to get back at him.
mona amon - Aug 26, 2008 3:43 am (#327 of 2988)
But Wynnleaf, if Snape suspected that Lupin was a werewolf, why on earth did he go down that tunnel?
wynnleaf - Aug 26, 2008 4:51 am (#328 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 5:51 am
But Wynnleaf, if Snape suspected that Lupin was a werewolf, why on earth did he go down that tunnel? (mona amon)
Yes, that's the flaw in that theory -- it assumes not just that Snape is sneaky and wants to expose Lupin, it assumes he's dimwitted as well, which he most assuredly is not.
So really, I guess the theory that fits everything we know best is that Snape was trying to convey what he'd learned to Lily by "theorizing" when in fact he actually knew the truth, but couldn't tell her so. This does make sense in view of what we learn about Snape later. He gets rather protective, at least of the physical safety, of even people he doesn't like. And he thinks werewolves in general are very dangerous. He'd be very motivated then, in spite of his promise to DD, to try to find a way to warn off Lily. He couldn't tell her outright, but he could act like he was just theorizing and hope she drew the right conclusion.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 26, 2008 8:25 am (#329 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 9:45 am
Lupin says in PA: "My friends could hardly fail to notice I disappeared once a month". Surely this couldn't have escaped Snape's notice either - assuming that, as in Harry's time, the Slytherin's had the occasional class with the Gryffindors. Sirius's goading comes because Snape is already skulking around after them and Sirius wants to teach Snape a lesson about minding his own business. In other words, Snape already has strong suspicions about Lupin ("Every month at the full moon") because he has already been monitoring the Marauders.
It sounds to me like, at some point Snape - somehow - saw Lupin being led toward the willow tunnel with Madame Pomfrey. He gets curious, even "obsessed". He later - SOMEHOW(*) - observes the other Marauders also heading that same direction on a regular basis. At some point, maybe during Herbology or Potions, he decides to confront Sirius about it. Sirius taunts Snape, dares him to see for himself maybe. But Snape, perhaps surprisingly, actually goes for it. James, furious that Sirius could be both so callous and so careless with theirs and Lupin's secrets, races after Snape before he gets himself killed. Of course, Snape never does come around to seeing it this way.
However, there is one thing Snape truly doesn't know and that is that the willow tunnel would lead him directly to the transformed Lupin. Because I do agree that if he knew that Lupin, in his werewolf state, was lurking down at the end of the tunnel - even if Snape was gullible enough to listen to Sirius in the first place, he definitely wouldn't have gone down the tunnel if he knew it led directly to a fully transformed werewolf.
(*) How Snape could have observed any of this in the first place is the real question, as far as I'm concerned. James had the cloak. Snape couldn't have just casually seen anything. Also, the Slytherin and Gryffindor Common Rooms are about as far away from each other as geographically possible. So, how could Snape have "accidentally" observed any of this? He must have been already in the habit of skulking around the castle at night - maybe with his friends Avery and Mulciber? In any case, my opinion is that this is the one aspect of what led up to the prank that is never provided with any kind of explanation.
mona amon - Aug 26, 2008 10:41 am (#330 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 11:43 am
I find this whole Prank business very interesting, and today after reading Lupin's account of it in POA, I was surprised to find that I had jumped to some wrong conclusions about it.
"Severus was very interested in where I went every month"- Now how would Lupin know this? Anyway he says so, and I'm assuming it is true.
"Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening..."- That sounds as if Snape just happened to see him that evening. And all this time I thought poor Sev was always snooping around the Marauders!
"Sirius thought it would be-er-amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree-trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. Well, of course Snape tried it-"
Since Snape sees Lupin with Madam Pomfrey, He would realise that the teachers knew all about it, so it was not about getting Lupin expelled. It was nothing but overwhelming curiosity. He is so obsessed with finding out what it's all about that he unsuspectingly follows Sirius's advice about how to get in after Lupin. If he already suspected Lupin was a werewolf, he wouldn't be so curious about him. Madam Pomfrey leading him to the willow would only be a confirmation of his suspicions. And he certainly wouldn't have been so eager to follow him!
Anyway, my main conclusion after all this is that we don't have any evidence to show that Snape was always shadowing the Marauders.
wynnleaf - Aug 26, 2008 12:35 pm (#331 of 2988)
That's a good point. While Sirius and Lupin do seem to think Snape wanted to find a reason to get them expelled, that doesn't necessarily mean he was shadowing their every move or even spying on them. Seeing Lupin going into the willow was probably circumstantial, but it made Snape particularly curious. However, if Snape was already suspicious of Lupin's "illnesses", then that would mean that even before becoming at all suspicious of Lupin being a werewolf or anything else, he'd have to have developed some sort of motivation to pay attention to when Lupin was absent, track the absences to the full moon, etc. That's a lot of attention to devote to someone solely because Snape was jealous of Lupin's friend, when Lily didn't even like James much at the time.
Which brings us back, still Quinn, to motivation. You haven't shown any real reason for why Snape would be interested in Lupin's secrets, illness, or whatever, without an intense enmity already existing between Snape and the Marauders. Simple jealousy over Lupin's friend, when Lily wasn't interested in James yet, just doesn't do it, in my opinion.
So, we're back to the only real evidence JKR has given, pre-Prank, to why Snape disliked the Marauders so much, and that's the hints in their first meeting that James and Sirius became a combo that bullied people, including Snape, and gradually added their other Marauder friends to give anyone they attacked the sense that they were ganging up. If JKR had shown something in that first meeting that James liked Lily even then, or she was just a little interested in James, then I could possibly see JKR having laid the backstory for that being the primary root of Snape's dislike of James. But that's not what JKR showed us. Rather, on the train, we can't see any signs that either James or Lily had the slightest bit of regard for the other.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 26, 2008 4:54 pm (#332 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 5:58 pm
Who knows what motivates a snoop. Hoping to get the goods on someone seems to be motive enough, if Draco is any kind of example. But why does he want to "get the goods" you will surely ask? Because he doesn't like him. There really doesn't need to be any more of a reason than that.
Yes, it is a great deal of energy and time to be spending on something so pointless and futile. But as with love, people will go to considerable lengths in the name of hate.
We see that Snape didn't need any kind of a "motive" to go snooping after Petunia's letter. It was absolutely NONE of his business what any letter addressed to Petunia - even one from Hogwarts - might say. But he didn't like Petunia because she was "only a" muggle and, more importantly, she was a threat to his relationship with Lily. Lily completely gives it away that she, at Snape's urging, sneaked into Petunia's room to read her letter from Hogwarts.
And even as an adult, Snape was happy, not only to sneak into the Shrieking Shack, but also to keep himself hidden under Harry's cloak right in front of Sirius, Lupin and the trio, hoping to hear something incriminating. I mean, if he was SO worried about protecting Harry from "a mass murderer" (the self same who supposedly got his un-girlfriend killed) and his maybe accomplice, as it has been argued, then why does he not just go into the Shack with wands blazing? Why does he not call for backup before chasing down the tunnel? Most importantly, why does he just stand around, hidden once he gets there?
I think it's because, once a sneaky snoop, always a sneaky snoop.
wynnleaf - Aug 26, 2008 5:06 pm (#333 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 6:06 pm
Quinn, because you don't want to admit to an actual reason for Snape trying to get info on Lupin and trying to get all the Marauders expelled, you theorize he had no reason at all. But every other example you give there is a reason. We know what makes Draco try to get Harry in trouble and we know exactly when Draco starts wanting to get back at Harry. We know every other "sneaky" thing Snape does and there are either excellent reasons for it (like the Shrieking Shack incident where he thinks he's got to sneak up on a mass murderer and his accomplice), or at least we know Snape's strong motivations. We have no real evidence that he disliked Petunia because she was a muggle. He said he wouldn't have spied on her because she was a muggle - and indeed, why would he? If he dislikes her, it is more likely for the very reasons everyone else, including the readers, dislike her. She's highly unlikeable, even as a kid.
But you want to attribute no motive to Snape's interest in getting not just one, but all of the Marauders expelled, as though he was randomly running around just trying to get anyone and everyone expelled, or that he just picked them at random.
JKR actually gives us the train scene for a reason. If it's not to show us how the enmity started between Snape and James, why is it there? She could easily have had Snape and Lily carry on a conversation about the houses without adding James and Sirius into the scene. James and Sirius are in that scene for a reason, yet if your theory that their actions in that scene mean nothing in particular, then JKR put them in there for no reason.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 26, 2008 5:58 pm (#334 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 7:06 pm
Quinn, because you don't want to admit to an actual reason for Snape trying to get info on Lupin and trying to get all the Marauders expelled, you theorize he had no reason at all.
No. What I actually said was "because he doesn't like him" (whether "he" and "him" are Draco and Harry or Snape and James or Harry and Draco or Snape and Sirius). I find that to be a perfectly sufficient "motivation". I guess I just think you're making it too complicated, that's all.
JKR actually gives us the train scene for a reason. - Right. There doesn't need to be any more to it than that.
Just out of curiosity, Wynnleaf, why do you keep calling everything I say a "theory"? Because it's just a plain old ordinary opinion about a fictional character.
wynnleaf - Aug 26, 2008 7:07 pm (#335 of 2988)
Well, anytime we try to figure out the reason behind something that happens in canon, where we know that JKR probably does have a specific intent, but there are different theories as to exactly what that intent is, well, then it's a "theory" -- a theory about how JKR intended us to interpret a certain aspect of the story.
Of course, I certainly agree that the author can't hold the reader hostage to a particular view. Once a writer lets go of a work, the readers interpret it many different ways. But still, in this case I do think it's important because JKR did set up specific scenes with some sort of authorial intent. One can disregard whatever her intent might be, but that kind of makes the writer a random, impersonal thing, rather than someone making intentional actions and writing things for intentional reasons.
JKR actually gives us the train scene for a reason. - Right. There doesn't need to be any more to it than that.
Honestly, I don't know what you mean. Do you mean "right, there's a reason," but don't comment on what the reason is? Or "right, there's a reason, but I don't care what it is," or "right, there's a reason and that's the reason" (an semantic absurdity)?
No. What I actually said was "because he doesn't like him"
But that's no answer. The question is why doesn't he like him, not "does he dislike him?" You seem to be saying that the reason is unimportant, or that there is no reason. It may be unimportant to some readers, but it does not appear to have been unimportant to the writer and therefore to the story and how one interprets the characters involved. And the notion that there is no reason for Snape to dislike James isn't even supported in canon, since Snape himself comments on numerous reasons to dislike James -- arrogance, ganging up on him, using Snape's spells against him, rule breaking, etc. So to ask what caused Snape to dislike James especially more than any other random kid in the school is important to understanding the dynamic between the characters.
Of course, some people could care less about the dynamic between the characters, but I would not suppose that to be true in your case, Quinn, since you're so willing to discuss it.
mona amon - Aug 26, 2008 7:33 pm (#336 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 8:43 pm
Quinn, if Snape was such a snoop, I find it strange that we do not hear more about it from the Marauders. Yes, Sirius said that Snape deserved the trick he played on him for "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to...hoping to get us expelled...", but he was referring specifically to the events of that evening when Snape saw Madam Pomfrey leading Lupin to the Whomping Willow. He doesn't say anything about 'always sneaking around'.
And after viewing the Worst Memory, when Harry is literally on his knees begging Lupin and Sirius for some justification for his father's conduct, now is the time to give him 'snooping' as an excuse, if that's what it was really about. But the only explanations they can give are, "He was only fifteen", "James and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other.", "Snape was this little oddball up to his eyes in the Dark Arts...and James always hated the Dark Arts" and that "everyone thought they were the height of cool and they sometimes got carried away". No mention whatsoever about Snape snooping around, so I can only assume that he wasn't generally snooping around, and that the explanation for the enemity must lie elsewhere.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 26, 2008 10:02 pm (#337 of 2988)
Yeah, I'm not proposing a "theory" at all, not even by stretching the definition. We're just discussing a work of fiction, here, and the way the characters in that work come across to us. We use what we've read and the way we've interpreted it to explain why the character appears to us to be a certain way. Maybe it's not the way the author intended, but that's the chance you take when you publish something.
The question is why doesn't he like him, not "does he dislike him?" - Not to me. I don't think it matters. That they don't like each other is enough of a reason for them to have a back and forth, tit for tat rivalry - and JKR establishes this with their first meeting. But if you insist on something specific, then how about that the Marauders call Snape "Snivellus"? Will that do? That's got to be both pretty annoying and mildly humiliating.
wynnleaf - Aug 27, 2008 3:53 am (#338 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 5:13 am
But if you insist on something specific, then how about that the Marauders call Snape "Snivellus"? Will that do? That's got to be both pretty annoying and mildly humiliating. (Quinn)
And trying to trip him. Yes, I agree what happens on the train is enough to start him disliking them. But you say, and I agree, that such degree of unpleasantness if basically annoying and "mildly" humiliating. Is that really -- supposing that kind of thing went on as the years went by -- enough for Snape to not just try to get them in trouble, but try to get them expelled? I don't think so. I get to observe lots of middle schoolers and high school kids and have seen plenty of teenage rivalries. I've seen plenty of kids dislike others over behaviors that are "annoying" and/or "mildly humiliating", but only very rarely have I seen kids so intense in their dislike of other kids that they seriously want them completely out of the school, enough to actually attempt on an ongoing basis to find a way to get them out. In fact, the only times I have seen that are in cases where a kid actually felt endangered by the other kids, or excessively humiliated on an ongoing basis.
It's Sirius and Lupin's saying that Snape was always trying to get them expelled that forces me to believe that Snape's dislike of them went way beyond what most kids would normally feel for kids that were annoying or mildly humiliating them.
By the way, a "theory" in this case is simply anytime we come up with an explanation for something in the story, and that explanation is based on what we've observed in the story and what we are reasoning out of what we observed. Of course, if one makes a statement of belief, such as "I believe Dumbledore is evil", but offers no explanation for why one thinks this, without giving anything one observed that seems to support it, nor any reasoning behind one's belief, then it certainly isn't a theory, but just an unreasoned belief without explanation.
However, if you say "I think Snape hated the Marauders for no other thing other than their annoying and mildly humiliating actions," then this could be a theory if you attempt to back it up with a reasoned explanation based on what you've observed in the story, perhaps how real people act and feel in situations, or perhaps also the writer's comments, then you've got a theory.
If you back up your belief with explanations based on observations and reasoning, then it's a theory. If you don't have any explanations, nor any reasoning based on observations, then it's just an unreasoned belief. Which doesn't make it untrue of course, it's just a lot harder to discuss if one offers no explanations nor reasoning behind one's belief.
I don't mean to use the word "theory" in a formal way. In this case one could also use the word "opinion", however an "opinion" can mean something backed up by observation and reasoning, or not, whereas in general (not always, of course), on this thread we try to use what we observe in the stories, in life, in JKR's comments and our reasoning, to inform our opinions, making our opinions more similar to theories rather than only unsubstantiated belief.
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 6:54 am (#339 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 8:00 am
But if you insist on something specific, then how about that the Marauders call Snape "Snivellus"? Will that do? That's got to be both pretty annoying and mildly humiliating. (Quinn)
And trying to trip him. (Wynnleaf)
I agree that this is the start of their enmity. But I don't think that this single incident at the beginning of their first year would be enough for Snape to try to have anyone expelled (if he did want to have them expelled, seeing Madam Pomfrey"s involvement) or to obsessively follow anyone in the fifth year. I think we are given this incident as the starting of their enmity but the rest of the story only makes sense if the initial incident was followed by others over the years. Then I really suppose as the boys got older (teenagers), as their magic abilities got stronger, as they got involved deeper and deeper in house rivalry, the incidents were probably becoming worse and worse. There must have been something to keep up this very strong dislike between them, otherwise they would just have forgotten about the train incident long before the prank.
I agree with Wynnleaf that if Snape really wanted to have any of the Marauders expelled, he must have had a strong reason. Even if this strong reason was hatred, it was not just the fact that he did not like to see their faces, there must have been more to it - like being threatened by their bullying. That would be a plausible reason - not the only one perhaps that one could imagine but this one at least has canon support.
Yet, seeing Madam Pomfrey with Lupin made the possibility of expulsion (or even the possibility of getting Lupin into trouble) rather unlikely, so it is equally possible that Snape just wanted to find out a possibly "legal" secret. If he suspected Lupin's condition, he probably thought Lupin was a general danger. We may say he had no business finding it out but then he lived in the same building where a really dangerous person lived (his best friend, Lily, lived in the same tower as Lupin) and while we know the security measures taken to keep the school safe, Snape knew nothing about them. We also know that adult Lupin is a nice, reliable werewolf but, as a teenage Marauder, he presumably did not seem to be a particularly likeable person to Snape (and, incidentally, he was not even very reliable in those days either, as we now know). Still, it remains a mystery to me - if Snape indeed suspected what Lupin was - what exactly he expected to happen when he went after him.
In any case, if the Marauders were not bullying Snape, the only other reason I can think of for Snape to go after Lupin is to find out a secret concerning a possible great danger for the whole school. Then again there seems to be an argument about "mild" bullying versus "strong" bullying. IMO too much bullying is what the person being bullied feels to be too much.
I would not equate Snape with Draco. Draco may have wanted to get HRH into trouble, yet if Snape went after Lupin because he suspected that he was a dangerous person, then he is more similar to Harry, who was actively investigating what Draco was up to in the second year and the sixth year for the very same reason. Besides, Draco did not simply follow HRH to see what they were doing, he also set up traps for them, trying to make them break the rules (e.g. the Midnight Duel), which Snape does not seem to have done. In fact, he wanted to find out the truth, which is more difficult than just getting someone into trouble somehow.
Soul Search - Aug 27, 2008 7:35 am (#340 of 2988)
I have no doubt Snape started his campaign to get James and Sirius expelled soon after the train incident. Look at the character we have for him! As an adult, a teacher, and Harry's (supposed) protector he belittled Harry from their first meeting and tried to get him expelled at every opportunity. Just because Harry was James son! This character flaw didn't just arise when he first saw Harry, he has had the same obsession since he started Hogwarts.
And, I do think we are supposed to draw parallels between James/Snape and Harry/Draco. Dumbledore made the comparison in PS so we would make the association. Draco immediately started his campaign against Harry and Ron after Harry snubbed him on the Hogwart's Express just like Snape started his campaign against Sirius and James after "Snivellus" and the tripping attempt. The incidents are way too similar, practically identical, to have been written accidentally.
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 8:05 am (#341 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 9:20 am
The incidents are way too similar, practically identical, to have been written accidentally. (Soul Search)
I am sure the similarities are not accidental. However, they are more complicated than just Snape = Draco, James = Harry. Look at this:
I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?
Malfoy to Harry in PS, about being sorted into Hufflepuff.
James to Snape in DH about being sorted into Slytherin.
JKR has first-year Draco say exactly the same words as first-year James. This is not an accident either.
About the other similarities: On the train in PS, it is Draco and friends who act aggressively (and they start the name-calling as well), while Harry simply refuses Draco's offer of friendship. Oh, yes, and Ron gave a slight cough, which might have been hiding a snigger, hearing Draco's name. In DH, on the train, Snape refuses to share James's opinion of houses and also Snape made a small disparaging noise at the word "Gryffindor", quite similar to Ron's cough. Then it is James who acts aggressively, not Snape ("Snivellus" and the tripping). So the incidents are very similar but it seems Slytherins and Gryffindors play opposing parts in the two scenes.
There is no evidence that Snape started to try to have James expelled right after the train incident or that he started his campaign against Sirius and James after "Snivellus" and the tripping attempt. (Soul Search) Where did you find this? (What campaign at all?) There is no evidence either that Snape (child or adult) ever tried to trap anyone into breaking the rules or that he ever lied just to get anyone into trouble as Malfoy did (the Midnight Duel and the Buckbeak case, for example).
Whatever his relationship was later with Harry, I don't think right after the train incident Snape knew James would be his arch-enemy for life in the same way as he knew exactly what Harry meant to him from the first moment he saw him.
Soul Search - Aug 27, 2008 8:33 am (#342 of 2988)
Julia H.,
Good pickup on the additional similarities between Harry/Draco and James/Snape. I do note that Harry was very upset to discover his father was the aggressor against Snape. Maybe that was what the "worst memory" scene was all about.
"There is no evidence that Snape started to try to have James expelled right after the train incident or that he started his campaign against Sirius and James after "Snivellus" and the tripping attempt. (Soul Search) Where did you find this? (What campaign at all?)" (Julia H.)
We have Sirius telling the trio in GoF that Snape was always sneaking around trying to get them expelled. We have Snape's character that he would not let "Snivellius" pass without response and James' and Sirius' character that they would continue to call Snape names and poke fun of him at every opportunity. All this respresents the Gryffindor versus Slytherin theme we see throughout the storyline.
This isn't Snape's or James' story so we can't expect a complete, detailed, storyline, but the snapshots we do have suggest the enmity started on the train and was ongoing. Did Snape think of getting them expelled the first day? Probably not, but the idea would have occurred to him rather quickly.
The Draco parallel also supports Snape starting soon to cause trouble for James and Sirius. Draco picked up quickly with fomenting dislike for Harry with Slytherins and devising trouble for Harry (the duel, Norbert, etc.) Snape would have done the same.
One big difference I see is Harry seldom initiated, acting the bully, against Draco, but James and Sirius did go after Snape.
Another parallel, perhaps, is Sirius seemed to dislike Snape even more than James, and Ron hated Draco even more than Harry did.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 27, 2008 8:52 am (#343 of 2988)
Thank you Soul Search!
There is no evidence that Snape started to try to have James expelled right after the train incident or that he started his campaign against Sirius and James after "Snivellus" and the tripping attempt. - Nor is there any evidence that James or Sirius started their "campaign" of bullying against Snape.
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 9:03 am (#344 of 2988)
The Draco parallel also supports Snape starting soon to cause trouble for James and Sirius. (Soul Search)
The supposed parallel between Draco and Snape seems to be the only piece of evidence that Snape started to cause or even "devise" trouble for the Marauders early on. But, as I tried to show in my previous post, this parallel is just what I don't agree with. (Draco tried to trap others to cause trouble for them but I'm not at all sure Draco would have voluntarily gone after Lupin into the tunnel, especially if he had suspected anything - remember how unwilling he was to go into the Forest even with Hagrid.) For all we know about the similarities, just based on some "parallel" evidence, it may have been James who started to cause trouble for Snape right in the beginning. But I actually think this "trouble causing" was by means of bullying (rather than by reporting him to the teachers), which is something Draco also did with the help of Crabb and Goyle.
There are striking similarities in the Draco-Harry and the James-Snape relationship but these are too complicated to allow us to say whatever Draco did Snape must have done the same. In the same way we cannot say whatever James did, Harry did the same. (Harry did not bully anyone, for example.)
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 11:03 am (#345 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 12:08 pm
Nor is there any evidence that James or Sirius started their "campaign" of bullying against Snape. (Quinn)
Well, the name calling and the tripping on the train and the fact that they still remember and use the name "Snivellus" in the fifth year are more evidence for bullying than anything we have for Snape instigating the "real" enmity for some obscure reason later.
After many posts we still have not been given any other possible purpose for the inclusion of the train scene apart from showing the readers how the enmity started between Snape and James. Since the train scene is canon, my opinion is that it is meant to indicate the nature of the enmity between the boys and in this scene James is the aggressive one (and the one more similar to Draco than to Harry), not Snape. Since five years later in another scene it is still James who instigates a conflict (with Harry finding his behaviour horrible), and there is nothing to indicate that between these two scenes there were any important changes in the roles Snape and James played in their enmity, my conclusion is that as far as canon evidence goes, we have these scenes and these scenes indicate that James and Sirius bullied Snape and Snape had an understandable reason to hate them or to find them dangerous. There is also evidence to suggest that Snape did not take this bullying lying down, of course, but the evidence is about hexing and cursing (in fights) and investigating / following (the Prank) with a reason and not about traps or lies or about trying to cause trouble for the Marauders in the Draco-way simply because of the first incident (I find the word "campaign" a bit too strong).
Quinn Crockett - Aug 27, 2008 11:34 am (#346 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 12:43 pm
After many posts we still have not been given any other possible purpose for the inclusion of the train scene apart from showing the readers how the enmity started between Snape and James. - Julia H.
Yes, they hated each other. We know that and we know where it started. But that doesn't mean James and Sirius actually did anything to Snape other than call him a derogatory nickname.
There have been similarities/parallels/comparisons made between Draco's and James's behavior toward Harry and Snape, respectively. Okay, let's go with that.
Other than taunting, teasing, insulting, inciting and just making a general annoyance of himself, what does Draco ever actually do to Harry? Up until HBP, when Draco stomps on Harry's face (Jeez! How violent an image is that, JKR?) all Draco does is sneer and crack insults at Harry and company.
But, why does Draco assault Harry? Because Harry - who, remember, is being compared to Snape - sneaked into Draco's compartment and was spying on him and his friends. In fact, Harry does a lot of skulking around under his invisibility cloak and a considerable amount of spying - only some of it directly affecting Draco (as in CS and HBP).
It has also been noted that Harry and his friends attacked Draco, Crabbe and Goyle simply because Draco had mouthed off to someone in the group. Again, we're putting Draco in the James position; and again, insults and threatening expressions from his cronies were Draco's only means of "attack".
If Draco is to Harry what James was to Snape, then James was someone who used insults and taunts to "attack" Snape; who teased Snape, pushed his buttons and called him "Snivellus" just because he knew it bothered Snape. But who didn't draw a wand to Snape - regardless of what he might have done to other people - until his 5th year, in front of a crowd of onlookers.
mona amon - Aug 27, 2008 12:28 pm (#347 of 2988)
But if you insist on something specific, then how about that the Marauders call Snape "Snivellus"? Will that do? That's got to be both pretty annoying and mildly humiliating. (Quinn)
Ah, Quinn, that sounds like you are admitting that the Marauders did bother Snape! I feel it must have been like that. They continue to call him Snivellus. He feels annoyed and humiliated. He retaliates. They do something back, and so it goes on. The result is animosity and loathing on both sides.
It's Sirius and Lupin's saying that Snape was always trying to get them expelled that forces me to believe that Snape's dislike of them went way beyond what most kids would normally feel for kids that were annoying or mildly humiliating them. (Wynnleaf)
We have Sirius telling the trio in GoF that Snape was always sneaking around trying to get them expelled. (Soul search)
Where does it say 'always trying to get them expelled'? In POA, Sirius says something like 'serves him right' "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to...hoping to get us expelled...", This is Sirius's interpretation of Snape's actions on the evening of the Prank. He sees Snape snooping around, and concludes that he was trying to get them all expelled. But from what Lupin says, it is clear that Snape happened to see Lupin going to the Willow that evening, and that he saw Madam Pomfrey with him. Madam Pomfrey's presence would naturally mean that all was legal, so it was nothing more than curiosity that made Snape want to find out what Lupin was doing.
I see no evidence at all that Snape was always snooping around the Marauders trying to get them expelled.
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 1:50 pm (#348 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 3:12 pm
If Draco is to Harry what James was to Snape, then James was someone who used insults and taunts to "attack" Snape; who teased Snape, pushed his buttons and called him "Snivellus" just because he knew it bothered Snape. But who didn't draw a wand to Snape - regardless of what he might have done to other people - until his 5th year, in front of a crowd of onlookers. (Quinn)
Hm.. and do you think it is OK? To "push Snape's buttons", to insult and taunt Snape and draw a wand to him (torturing and humiliating him publicly) "because he exists" in the fifth year "only"? What is the point we are arguing right now? Are you saying that whatever James and Sirius did or said to Snape between the train scene and the Worst Memory was not important and should not have bothered him? That whatever it was that "finally" made James draw a wand to Snape in the fifth year was Snape's fault because he could not put up with five years of "mild" taunting and humiliation?
Then what exactly did Snape do to deserve the sudden "change" in the Marauders' attitude? I agree with Mona that "Snape trying to get them expelled" was Sirius's assessment of the situation but if it is true that Snape saw Madam Pomfrey with Lupin then the way Sirius explains Snape's actions ("trying to get them expelled") may not be any closer to the truth than Snape's own strong conviction that James and Lupin were Sirius's accomplices in the Prank. I think Sirius told Harry what he really thought. But if he did believe that Snape actually was trying to get them expelled, it indicates that the enmity was rather strong between the group and Snape at the time, i.e. the Marauders were aware how much their "mild taunting" must have bothered Snape - or why would they have attributed to him such degree of hostility?
Up until HBP, when Draco stomps on Harry's face (Jeez! How violent an image is that, JKR?) all Draco does is sneer and crack insults at Harry and company. But, why does Draco assault Harry? Because Harry - who, remember, is being compared to Snape - sneaked into Draco's compartment and was spying on him and his friends. (Quinn)
But why was Harry spying on Draco and his friends? Because Harry - who, remember, is being compared to Snape - thought that Draco was doing or planning to do something dangerous and evil (and he was right).
If Draco is to Harry what James was to Snape, then James was someone who used insults and taunts to "attack" Snape; who teased Snape, pushed his buttons and called him "Snivellus" just because he knew it bothered Snape.
Draco may not attack Harry personally until the sixth year (notice the similarity to the Worst Memory: first Draco disarms and immobilizes Harry and then he stomps on his face and breaks his nose - and Harry finds it all rather humiliating, only the onlookers are missing), however, Draco has two "little friends" who regularly act in a threatening way, they try to attack Harry and Ron already on the train in the first year. In fact, Draco does try to attack Harry earlier than the sixth year, only he is not successful. It is also Draco who tries to trap him with the Midnight Duel, which is not physical aggression but not verbal taunting either but a third form of attacks. If we insist that the comparison means that anything that happened in the second generation must have happened in the first one as well, then, Quinn, it logically follows from your argument that James must have tried to trap Snape into doing something illegal to get him into trouble even before Snape gave any reason that would make James's behaviour seem fair. (In fact, Sirius does something similar in the Prank.) Just on the basis of comparison, it may also follow that Snape was annoyed with James and friends and confronted them because the Marauders bullied others as well (remember the Remembrall incident during the first flying lesson in PS?). I would not go that far with the comparison, however. In certain cases JKR writes out similar scenes and then she does focus on certain similarities of these enmities and these similarities are both complex and important. However, my opinion is that just because Draco or Harry did something, in itself it is not proof that Snape or James must have done the same. Or if it is proof - then it is really up to the readers how far they are willing to take the comparison-based "evidence" beyond canon.
About the verbal taunting and the insults: The fact that James does not draw a wand in the train scene is easy to understand. He has recently got his wand and he does not know how to use it yet. IMO, the tripping indicates James's aggression while he cannot use his wand yet. As for the future, whether he fights with a wand or with his fists, it is bullying in either way. But I find it interesting that you seem to be arguing (correct me if I am wrong) that the Marauders' verbal taunting (prior to the end of the fifth year) did not matter (or something like that), yet in your post Nr. 236 on this thread you seemed to be saying that continuous verbal taunting may be enough reason to finally provoke physical response. Even the most even-tempered individual can only take so much of that sort of constant badgering. You were talking about Zidane and the time-period of a game, not of five years. If I understood you well, in that post you seemed to be saying that Snape may have taunted the Marauders over the years into reacting with physical aggression. (IMO "Snivellus" and the tripping in the train scene indicate there was no need for years of non-stop verbal taunting to push the Marauders' buttons.) You seemed to find that reaction understandable there, however, now you seem to be saying (and I am not at all sure that I interpret your posts in the correct way, so please explain if I am wrong) that it was somehow Snape's fault that he could not bear this "mild verbal taunting" over the years that you are attributing to the Marauders and that the Prank and the Worst Memory somehow "served him right" for trying to retaliate (and as far as we know, this "retaliation" meant only spying on them, not petrifying and beating them up or something like that - and Snape even got his "punishment" for it right then, so the Worst Memory torment seems to be an added bonus only). So is years of verbal taunting and "mild humiliation" OK or not? I suppose it should not matter whether it is Snape or James who is suspected of being guilty of it.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 27, 2008 4:22 pm (#349 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 5:49 pm
Hm.. and do you think it is OK? To "push Snape's buttons", to insult and taunt Snape - Uh, no. In fact, I was the one who counted emotional button-pushing - which is what Snape does - as an "attack" and put them on a level with drawing a wand.
To me, there is no real comparison. Harry/Draco and James/Snape are two completely different rivalries.
You (and I'm not really trying to single out Julia H, here) are so determined to see Snape as this poor, misunderstood little outcast who everybody picked on for no apparent reason other than "because he exists". Saint Sev, was it? In your view, everything Snape does has some benign, even noble motivation ("He was only trying to prove they were doing something dangerous" "He thought he was dealing with a mass murderer"). I find this to be such an unrealistic view of this character that I think it would just be pointless for me to continue to participate in this discussion.
Soul Search - Aug 27, 2008 4:22 pm (#350 of 2988)
Julia H. brought up Snape's half-blood status on another thread and I thought it may apply to this discussion. I seem to recall "loner" applied to Snape in one of the descriptions we have. We have also noted that no Slytherins came to Snape's rescue in the Worst Memory scene, even though most fifth-year Slytherins had to have been around.
Did Snape get taunts and pranks from Slytherins too? For being half-blood. The only other half-blood Slytherin we know of was Voldemort.
Edited Aug 26, 2008 3:41 am
I felt from the conversation that Snape had suspected Lupin was a werewolf and had mentioned it to Lily before the Prank. But even there you have to ask "Why?" Sirius and Lupin don't say that Snape as just targeting Lupin to find out what he was up to. They say he was trying to get any or all of them expelled and that was why he was trying to find out what they were up to, which included where Lupin was going every month. And Snape, if I recall, mentions it in talking with Lily -- what they get up to each month, not just Lupin. So we're still back at the "why". Why did Snape care so much about getting the entire Marauder gang expelled? Simple jealousy over James liking Lily, especially when she hadn't yet responded to James, doesn't make sense. Yes, that could account for some general sniping at James' friends, but not for wanting to get them all expelled. It had to be a lot more than rivalry over a girl that we have no evidence James even cared about until 5th year and who wasn't clearly interested in James until later. Even DD compares Harry and Draco's dislike to Snape and James, right from 1st year, and the Harry/Draco rivalry has nothing to do with a girl and mostly to do with general dislike - even more than differences over Dark interests. Harry disliked Draco's arrogance and bullying behavior and let Draco know it publicly, and Draco responded with disliking Harry and wanting to get back at him.
mona amon - Aug 26, 2008 3:43 am (#327 of 2988)
But Wynnleaf, if Snape suspected that Lupin was a werewolf, why on earth did he go down that tunnel?
wynnleaf - Aug 26, 2008 4:51 am (#328 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 5:51 am
But Wynnleaf, if Snape suspected that Lupin was a werewolf, why on earth did he go down that tunnel? (mona amon)
Yes, that's the flaw in that theory -- it assumes not just that Snape is sneaky and wants to expose Lupin, it assumes he's dimwitted as well, which he most assuredly is not.
So really, I guess the theory that fits everything we know best is that Snape was trying to convey what he'd learned to Lily by "theorizing" when in fact he actually knew the truth, but couldn't tell her so. This does make sense in view of what we learn about Snape later. He gets rather protective, at least of the physical safety, of even people he doesn't like. And he thinks werewolves in general are very dangerous. He'd be very motivated then, in spite of his promise to DD, to try to find a way to warn off Lily. He couldn't tell her outright, but he could act like he was just theorizing and hope she drew the right conclusion.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 26, 2008 8:25 am (#329 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 9:45 am
Lupin says in PA: "My friends could hardly fail to notice I disappeared once a month". Surely this couldn't have escaped Snape's notice either - assuming that, as in Harry's time, the Slytherin's had the occasional class with the Gryffindors. Sirius's goading comes because Snape is already skulking around after them and Sirius wants to teach Snape a lesson about minding his own business. In other words, Snape already has strong suspicions about Lupin ("Every month at the full moon") because he has already been monitoring the Marauders.
It sounds to me like, at some point Snape - somehow - saw Lupin being led toward the willow tunnel with Madame Pomfrey. He gets curious, even "obsessed". He later - SOMEHOW(*) - observes the other Marauders also heading that same direction on a regular basis. At some point, maybe during Herbology or Potions, he decides to confront Sirius about it. Sirius taunts Snape, dares him to see for himself maybe. But Snape, perhaps surprisingly, actually goes for it. James, furious that Sirius could be both so callous and so careless with theirs and Lupin's secrets, races after Snape before he gets himself killed. Of course, Snape never does come around to seeing it this way.
However, there is one thing Snape truly doesn't know and that is that the willow tunnel would lead him directly to the transformed Lupin. Because I do agree that if he knew that Lupin, in his werewolf state, was lurking down at the end of the tunnel - even if Snape was gullible enough to listen to Sirius in the first place, he definitely wouldn't have gone down the tunnel if he knew it led directly to a fully transformed werewolf.
(*) How Snape could have observed any of this in the first place is the real question, as far as I'm concerned. James had the cloak. Snape couldn't have just casually seen anything. Also, the Slytherin and Gryffindor Common Rooms are about as far away from each other as geographically possible. So, how could Snape have "accidentally" observed any of this? He must have been already in the habit of skulking around the castle at night - maybe with his friends Avery and Mulciber? In any case, my opinion is that this is the one aspect of what led up to the prank that is never provided with any kind of explanation.
mona amon - Aug 26, 2008 10:41 am (#330 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 11:43 am
I find this whole Prank business very interesting, and today after reading Lupin's account of it in POA, I was surprised to find that I had jumped to some wrong conclusions about it.
"Severus was very interested in where I went every month"- Now how would Lupin know this? Anyway he says so, and I'm assuming it is true.
"Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening..."- That sounds as if Snape just happened to see him that evening. And all this time I thought poor Sev was always snooping around the Marauders!
"Sirius thought it would be-er-amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree-trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. Well, of course Snape tried it-"
Since Snape sees Lupin with Madam Pomfrey, He would realise that the teachers knew all about it, so it was not about getting Lupin expelled. It was nothing but overwhelming curiosity. He is so obsessed with finding out what it's all about that he unsuspectingly follows Sirius's advice about how to get in after Lupin. If he already suspected Lupin was a werewolf, he wouldn't be so curious about him. Madam Pomfrey leading him to the willow would only be a confirmation of his suspicions. And he certainly wouldn't have been so eager to follow him!
Anyway, my main conclusion after all this is that we don't have any evidence to show that Snape was always shadowing the Marauders.
wynnleaf - Aug 26, 2008 12:35 pm (#331 of 2988)
That's a good point. While Sirius and Lupin do seem to think Snape wanted to find a reason to get them expelled, that doesn't necessarily mean he was shadowing their every move or even spying on them. Seeing Lupin going into the willow was probably circumstantial, but it made Snape particularly curious. However, if Snape was already suspicious of Lupin's "illnesses", then that would mean that even before becoming at all suspicious of Lupin being a werewolf or anything else, he'd have to have developed some sort of motivation to pay attention to when Lupin was absent, track the absences to the full moon, etc. That's a lot of attention to devote to someone solely because Snape was jealous of Lupin's friend, when Lily didn't even like James much at the time.
Which brings us back, still Quinn, to motivation. You haven't shown any real reason for why Snape would be interested in Lupin's secrets, illness, or whatever, without an intense enmity already existing between Snape and the Marauders. Simple jealousy over Lupin's friend, when Lily wasn't interested in James yet, just doesn't do it, in my opinion.
So, we're back to the only real evidence JKR has given, pre-Prank, to why Snape disliked the Marauders so much, and that's the hints in their first meeting that James and Sirius became a combo that bullied people, including Snape, and gradually added their other Marauder friends to give anyone they attacked the sense that they were ganging up. If JKR had shown something in that first meeting that James liked Lily even then, or she was just a little interested in James, then I could possibly see JKR having laid the backstory for that being the primary root of Snape's dislike of James. But that's not what JKR showed us. Rather, on the train, we can't see any signs that either James or Lily had the slightest bit of regard for the other.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 26, 2008 4:54 pm (#332 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 5:58 pm
Who knows what motivates a snoop. Hoping to get the goods on someone seems to be motive enough, if Draco is any kind of example. But why does he want to "get the goods" you will surely ask? Because he doesn't like him. There really doesn't need to be any more of a reason than that.
Yes, it is a great deal of energy and time to be spending on something so pointless and futile. But as with love, people will go to considerable lengths in the name of hate.
We see that Snape didn't need any kind of a "motive" to go snooping after Petunia's letter. It was absolutely NONE of his business what any letter addressed to Petunia - even one from Hogwarts - might say. But he didn't like Petunia because she was "only a" muggle and, more importantly, she was a threat to his relationship with Lily. Lily completely gives it away that she, at Snape's urging, sneaked into Petunia's room to read her letter from Hogwarts.
And even as an adult, Snape was happy, not only to sneak into the Shrieking Shack, but also to keep himself hidden under Harry's cloak right in front of Sirius, Lupin and the trio, hoping to hear something incriminating. I mean, if he was SO worried about protecting Harry from "a mass murderer" (the self same who supposedly got his un-girlfriend killed) and his maybe accomplice, as it has been argued, then why does he not just go into the Shack with wands blazing? Why does he not call for backup before chasing down the tunnel? Most importantly, why does he just stand around, hidden once he gets there?
I think it's because, once a sneaky snoop, always a sneaky snoop.
wynnleaf - Aug 26, 2008 5:06 pm (#333 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 6:06 pm
Quinn, because you don't want to admit to an actual reason for Snape trying to get info on Lupin and trying to get all the Marauders expelled, you theorize he had no reason at all. But every other example you give there is a reason. We know what makes Draco try to get Harry in trouble and we know exactly when Draco starts wanting to get back at Harry. We know every other "sneaky" thing Snape does and there are either excellent reasons for it (like the Shrieking Shack incident where he thinks he's got to sneak up on a mass murderer and his accomplice), or at least we know Snape's strong motivations. We have no real evidence that he disliked Petunia because she was a muggle. He said he wouldn't have spied on her because she was a muggle - and indeed, why would he? If he dislikes her, it is more likely for the very reasons everyone else, including the readers, dislike her. She's highly unlikeable, even as a kid.
But you want to attribute no motive to Snape's interest in getting not just one, but all of the Marauders expelled, as though he was randomly running around just trying to get anyone and everyone expelled, or that he just picked them at random.
JKR actually gives us the train scene for a reason. If it's not to show us how the enmity started between Snape and James, why is it there? She could easily have had Snape and Lily carry on a conversation about the houses without adding James and Sirius into the scene. James and Sirius are in that scene for a reason, yet if your theory that their actions in that scene mean nothing in particular, then JKR put them in there for no reason.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 26, 2008 5:58 pm (#334 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 7:06 pm
Quinn, because you don't want to admit to an actual reason for Snape trying to get info on Lupin and trying to get all the Marauders expelled, you theorize he had no reason at all.
No. What I actually said was "because he doesn't like him" (whether "he" and "him" are Draco and Harry or Snape and James or Harry and Draco or Snape and Sirius). I find that to be a perfectly sufficient "motivation". I guess I just think you're making it too complicated, that's all.
JKR actually gives us the train scene for a reason. - Right. There doesn't need to be any more to it than that.
Just out of curiosity, Wynnleaf, why do you keep calling everything I say a "theory"? Because it's just a plain old ordinary opinion about a fictional character.
wynnleaf - Aug 26, 2008 7:07 pm (#335 of 2988)
Well, anytime we try to figure out the reason behind something that happens in canon, where we know that JKR probably does have a specific intent, but there are different theories as to exactly what that intent is, well, then it's a "theory" -- a theory about how JKR intended us to interpret a certain aspect of the story.
Of course, I certainly agree that the author can't hold the reader hostage to a particular view. Once a writer lets go of a work, the readers interpret it many different ways. But still, in this case I do think it's important because JKR did set up specific scenes with some sort of authorial intent. One can disregard whatever her intent might be, but that kind of makes the writer a random, impersonal thing, rather than someone making intentional actions and writing things for intentional reasons.
JKR actually gives us the train scene for a reason. - Right. There doesn't need to be any more to it than that.
Honestly, I don't know what you mean. Do you mean "right, there's a reason," but don't comment on what the reason is? Or "right, there's a reason, but I don't care what it is," or "right, there's a reason and that's the reason" (an semantic absurdity)?
No. What I actually said was "because he doesn't like him"
But that's no answer. The question is why doesn't he like him, not "does he dislike him?" You seem to be saying that the reason is unimportant, or that there is no reason. It may be unimportant to some readers, but it does not appear to have been unimportant to the writer and therefore to the story and how one interprets the characters involved. And the notion that there is no reason for Snape to dislike James isn't even supported in canon, since Snape himself comments on numerous reasons to dislike James -- arrogance, ganging up on him, using Snape's spells against him, rule breaking, etc. So to ask what caused Snape to dislike James especially more than any other random kid in the school is important to understanding the dynamic between the characters.
Of course, some people could care less about the dynamic between the characters, but I would not suppose that to be true in your case, Quinn, since you're so willing to discuss it.
mona amon - Aug 26, 2008 7:33 pm (#336 of 2988)
Edited Aug 26, 2008 8:43 pm
Quinn, if Snape was such a snoop, I find it strange that we do not hear more about it from the Marauders. Yes, Sirius said that Snape deserved the trick he played on him for "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to...hoping to get us expelled...", but he was referring specifically to the events of that evening when Snape saw Madam Pomfrey leading Lupin to the Whomping Willow. He doesn't say anything about 'always sneaking around'.
And after viewing the Worst Memory, when Harry is literally on his knees begging Lupin and Sirius for some justification for his father's conduct, now is the time to give him 'snooping' as an excuse, if that's what it was really about. But the only explanations they can give are, "He was only fifteen", "James and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other.", "Snape was this little oddball up to his eyes in the Dark Arts...and James always hated the Dark Arts" and that "everyone thought they were the height of cool and they sometimes got carried away". No mention whatsoever about Snape snooping around, so I can only assume that he wasn't generally snooping around, and that the explanation for the enemity must lie elsewhere.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 26, 2008 10:02 pm (#337 of 2988)
Yeah, I'm not proposing a "theory" at all, not even by stretching the definition. We're just discussing a work of fiction, here, and the way the characters in that work come across to us. We use what we've read and the way we've interpreted it to explain why the character appears to us to be a certain way. Maybe it's not the way the author intended, but that's the chance you take when you publish something.
The question is why doesn't he like him, not "does he dislike him?" - Not to me. I don't think it matters. That they don't like each other is enough of a reason for them to have a back and forth, tit for tat rivalry - and JKR establishes this with their first meeting. But if you insist on something specific, then how about that the Marauders call Snape "Snivellus"? Will that do? That's got to be both pretty annoying and mildly humiliating.
wynnleaf - Aug 27, 2008 3:53 am (#338 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 5:13 am
But if you insist on something specific, then how about that the Marauders call Snape "Snivellus"? Will that do? That's got to be both pretty annoying and mildly humiliating. (Quinn)
And trying to trip him. Yes, I agree what happens on the train is enough to start him disliking them. But you say, and I agree, that such degree of unpleasantness if basically annoying and "mildly" humiliating. Is that really -- supposing that kind of thing went on as the years went by -- enough for Snape to not just try to get them in trouble, but try to get them expelled? I don't think so. I get to observe lots of middle schoolers and high school kids and have seen plenty of teenage rivalries. I've seen plenty of kids dislike others over behaviors that are "annoying" and/or "mildly humiliating", but only very rarely have I seen kids so intense in their dislike of other kids that they seriously want them completely out of the school, enough to actually attempt on an ongoing basis to find a way to get them out. In fact, the only times I have seen that are in cases where a kid actually felt endangered by the other kids, or excessively humiliated on an ongoing basis.
It's Sirius and Lupin's saying that Snape was always trying to get them expelled that forces me to believe that Snape's dislike of them went way beyond what most kids would normally feel for kids that were annoying or mildly humiliating them.
By the way, a "theory" in this case is simply anytime we come up with an explanation for something in the story, and that explanation is based on what we've observed in the story and what we are reasoning out of what we observed. Of course, if one makes a statement of belief, such as "I believe Dumbledore is evil", but offers no explanation for why one thinks this, without giving anything one observed that seems to support it, nor any reasoning behind one's belief, then it certainly isn't a theory, but just an unreasoned belief without explanation.
However, if you say "I think Snape hated the Marauders for no other thing other than their annoying and mildly humiliating actions," then this could be a theory if you attempt to back it up with a reasoned explanation based on what you've observed in the story, perhaps how real people act and feel in situations, or perhaps also the writer's comments, then you've got a theory.
If you back up your belief with explanations based on observations and reasoning, then it's a theory. If you don't have any explanations, nor any reasoning based on observations, then it's just an unreasoned belief. Which doesn't make it untrue of course, it's just a lot harder to discuss if one offers no explanations nor reasoning behind one's belief.
I don't mean to use the word "theory" in a formal way. In this case one could also use the word "opinion", however an "opinion" can mean something backed up by observation and reasoning, or not, whereas in general (not always, of course), on this thread we try to use what we observe in the stories, in life, in JKR's comments and our reasoning, to inform our opinions, making our opinions more similar to theories rather than only unsubstantiated belief.
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 6:54 am (#339 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 8:00 am
But if you insist on something specific, then how about that the Marauders call Snape "Snivellus"? Will that do? That's got to be both pretty annoying and mildly humiliating. (Quinn)
And trying to trip him. (Wynnleaf)
I agree that this is the start of their enmity. But I don't think that this single incident at the beginning of their first year would be enough for Snape to try to have anyone expelled (if he did want to have them expelled, seeing Madam Pomfrey"s involvement) or to obsessively follow anyone in the fifth year. I think we are given this incident as the starting of their enmity but the rest of the story only makes sense if the initial incident was followed by others over the years. Then I really suppose as the boys got older (teenagers), as their magic abilities got stronger, as they got involved deeper and deeper in house rivalry, the incidents were probably becoming worse and worse. There must have been something to keep up this very strong dislike between them, otherwise they would just have forgotten about the train incident long before the prank.
I agree with Wynnleaf that if Snape really wanted to have any of the Marauders expelled, he must have had a strong reason. Even if this strong reason was hatred, it was not just the fact that he did not like to see their faces, there must have been more to it - like being threatened by their bullying. That would be a plausible reason - not the only one perhaps that one could imagine but this one at least has canon support.
Yet, seeing Madam Pomfrey with Lupin made the possibility of expulsion (or even the possibility of getting Lupin into trouble) rather unlikely, so it is equally possible that Snape just wanted to find out a possibly "legal" secret. If he suspected Lupin's condition, he probably thought Lupin was a general danger. We may say he had no business finding it out but then he lived in the same building where a really dangerous person lived (his best friend, Lily, lived in the same tower as Lupin) and while we know the security measures taken to keep the school safe, Snape knew nothing about them. We also know that adult Lupin is a nice, reliable werewolf but, as a teenage Marauder, he presumably did not seem to be a particularly likeable person to Snape (and, incidentally, he was not even very reliable in those days either, as we now know). Still, it remains a mystery to me - if Snape indeed suspected what Lupin was - what exactly he expected to happen when he went after him.
In any case, if the Marauders were not bullying Snape, the only other reason I can think of for Snape to go after Lupin is to find out a secret concerning a possible great danger for the whole school. Then again there seems to be an argument about "mild" bullying versus "strong" bullying. IMO too much bullying is what the person being bullied feels to be too much.
I would not equate Snape with Draco. Draco may have wanted to get HRH into trouble, yet if Snape went after Lupin because he suspected that he was a dangerous person, then he is more similar to Harry, who was actively investigating what Draco was up to in the second year and the sixth year for the very same reason. Besides, Draco did not simply follow HRH to see what they were doing, he also set up traps for them, trying to make them break the rules (e.g. the Midnight Duel), which Snape does not seem to have done. In fact, he wanted to find out the truth, which is more difficult than just getting someone into trouble somehow.
Soul Search - Aug 27, 2008 7:35 am (#340 of 2988)
I have no doubt Snape started his campaign to get James and Sirius expelled soon after the train incident. Look at the character we have for him! As an adult, a teacher, and Harry's (supposed) protector he belittled Harry from their first meeting and tried to get him expelled at every opportunity. Just because Harry was James son! This character flaw didn't just arise when he first saw Harry, he has had the same obsession since he started Hogwarts.
And, I do think we are supposed to draw parallels between James/Snape and Harry/Draco. Dumbledore made the comparison in PS so we would make the association. Draco immediately started his campaign against Harry and Ron after Harry snubbed him on the Hogwart's Express just like Snape started his campaign against Sirius and James after "Snivellus" and the tripping attempt. The incidents are way too similar, practically identical, to have been written accidentally.
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 8:05 am (#341 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 9:20 am
The incidents are way too similar, practically identical, to have been written accidentally. (Soul Search)
I am sure the similarities are not accidental. However, they are more complicated than just Snape = Draco, James = Harry. Look at this:
I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?
Malfoy to Harry in PS, about being sorted into Hufflepuff.
James to Snape in DH about being sorted into Slytherin.
JKR has first-year Draco say exactly the same words as first-year James. This is not an accident either.
About the other similarities: On the train in PS, it is Draco and friends who act aggressively (and they start the name-calling as well), while Harry simply refuses Draco's offer of friendship. Oh, yes, and Ron gave a slight cough, which might have been hiding a snigger, hearing Draco's name. In DH, on the train, Snape refuses to share James's opinion of houses and also Snape made a small disparaging noise at the word "Gryffindor", quite similar to Ron's cough. Then it is James who acts aggressively, not Snape ("Snivellus" and the tripping). So the incidents are very similar but it seems Slytherins and Gryffindors play opposing parts in the two scenes.
There is no evidence that Snape started to try to have James expelled right after the train incident or that he started his campaign against Sirius and James after "Snivellus" and the tripping attempt. (Soul Search) Where did you find this? (What campaign at all?) There is no evidence either that Snape (child or adult) ever tried to trap anyone into breaking the rules or that he ever lied just to get anyone into trouble as Malfoy did (the Midnight Duel and the Buckbeak case, for example).
Whatever his relationship was later with Harry, I don't think right after the train incident Snape knew James would be his arch-enemy for life in the same way as he knew exactly what Harry meant to him from the first moment he saw him.
Soul Search - Aug 27, 2008 8:33 am (#342 of 2988)
Julia H.,
Good pickup on the additional similarities between Harry/Draco and James/Snape. I do note that Harry was very upset to discover his father was the aggressor against Snape. Maybe that was what the "worst memory" scene was all about.
"There is no evidence that Snape started to try to have James expelled right after the train incident or that he started his campaign against Sirius and James after "Snivellus" and the tripping attempt. (Soul Search) Where did you find this? (What campaign at all?)" (Julia H.)
We have Sirius telling the trio in GoF that Snape was always sneaking around trying to get them expelled. We have Snape's character that he would not let "Snivellius" pass without response and James' and Sirius' character that they would continue to call Snape names and poke fun of him at every opportunity. All this respresents the Gryffindor versus Slytherin theme we see throughout the storyline.
This isn't Snape's or James' story so we can't expect a complete, detailed, storyline, but the snapshots we do have suggest the enmity started on the train and was ongoing. Did Snape think of getting them expelled the first day? Probably not, but the idea would have occurred to him rather quickly.
The Draco parallel also supports Snape starting soon to cause trouble for James and Sirius. Draco picked up quickly with fomenting dislike for Harry with Slytherins and devising trouble for Harry (the duel, Norbert, etc.) Snape would have done the same.
One big difference I see is Harry seldom initiated, acting the bully, against Draco, but James and Sirius did go after Snape.
Another parallel, perhaps, is Sirius seemed to dislike Snape even more than James, and Ron hated Draco even more than Harry did.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 27, 2008 8:52 am (#343 of 2988)
Thank you Soul Search!
There is no evidence that Snape started to try to have James expelled right after the train incident or that he started his campaign against Sirius and James after "Snivellus" and the tripping attempt. - Nor is there any evidence that James or Sirius started their "campaign" of bullying against Snape.
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 9:03 am (#344 of 2988)
The Draco parallel also supports Snape starting soon to cause trouble for James and Sirius. (Soul Search)
The supposed parallel between Draco and Snape seems to be the only piece of evidence that Snape started to cause or even "devise" trouble for the Marauders early on. But, as I tried to show in my previous post, this parallel is just what I don't agree with. (Draco tried to trap others to cause trouble for them but I'm not at all sure Draco would have voluntarily gone after Lupin into the tunnel, especially if he had suspected anything - remember how unwilling he was to go into the Forest even with Hagrid.) For all we know about the similarities, just based on some "parallel" evidence, it may have been James who started to cause trouble for Snape right in the beginning. But I actually think this "trouble causing" was by means of bullying (rather than by reporting him to the teachers), which is something Draco also did with the help of Crabb and Goyle.
There are striking similarities in the Draco-Harry and the James-Snape relationship but these are too complicated to allow us to say whatever Draco did Snape must have done the same. In the same way we cannot say whatever James did, Harry did the same. (Harry did not bully anyone, for example.)
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 11:03 am (#345 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 12:08 pm
Nor is there any evidence that James or Sirius started their "campaign" of bullying against Snape. (Quinn)
Well, the name calling and the tripping on the train and the fact that they still remember and use the name "Snivellus" in the fifth year are more evidence for bullying than anything we have for Snape instigating the "real" enmity for some obscure reason later.
After many posts we still have not been given any other possible purpose for the inclusion of the train scene apart from showing the readers how the enmity started between Snape and James. Since the train scene is canon, my opinion is that it is meant to indicate the nature of the enmity between the boys and in this scene James is the aggressive one (and the one more similar to Draco than to Harry), not Snape. Since five years later in another scene it is still James who instigates a conflict (with Harry finding his behaviour horrible), and there is nothing to indicate that between these two scenes there were any important changes in the roles Snape and James played in their enmity, my conclusion is that as far as canon evidence goes, we have these scenes and these scenes indicate that James and Sirius bullied Snape and Snape had an understandable reason to hate them or to find them dangerous. There is also evidence to suggest that Snape did not take this bullying lying down, of course, but the evidence is about hexing and cursing (in fights) and investigating / following (the Prank) with a reason and not about traps or lies or about trying to cause trouble for the Marauders in the Draco-way simply because of the first incident (I find the word "campaign" a bit too strong).
Quinn Crockett - Aug 27, 2008 11:34 am (#346 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 12:43 pm
After many posts we still have not been given any other possible purpose for the inclusion of the train scene apart from showing the readers how the enmity started between Snape and James. - Julia H.
Yes, they hated each other. We know that and we know where it started. But that doesn't mean James and Sirius actually did anything to Snape other than call him a derogatory nickname.
There have been similarities/parallels/comparisons made between Draco's and James's behavior toward Harry and Snape, respectively. Okay, let's go with that.
Other than taunting, teasing, insulting, inciting and just making a general annoyance of himself, what does Draco ever actually do to Harry? Up until HBP, when Draco stomps on Harry's face (Jeez! How violent an image is that, JKR?) all Draco does is sneer and crack insults at Harry and company.
But, why does Draco assault Harry? Because Harry - who, remember, is being compared to Snape - sneaked into Draco's compartment and was spying on him and his friends. In fact, Harry does a lot of skulking around under his invisibility cloak and a considerable amount of spying - only some of it directly affecting Draco (as in CS and HBP).
It has also been noted that Harry and his friends attacked Draco, Crabbe and Goyle simply because Draco had mouthed off to someone in the group. Again, we're putting Draco in the James position; and again, insults and threatening expressions from his cronies were Draco's only means of "attack".
If Draco is to Harry what James was to Snape, then James was someone who used insults and taunts to "attack" Snape; who teased Snape, pushed his buttons and called him "Snivellus" just because he knew it bothered Snape. But who didn't draw a wand to Snape - regardless of what he might have done to other people - until his 5th year, in front of a crowd of onlookers.
mona amon - Aug 27, 2008 12:28 pm (#347 of 2988)
But if you insist on something specific, then how about that the Marauders call Snape "Snivellus"? Will that do? That's got to be both pretty annoying and mildly humiliating. (Quinn)
Ah, Quinn, that sounds like you are admitting that the Marauders did bother Snape! I feel it must have been like that. They continue to call him Snivellus. He feels annoyed and humiliated. He retaliates. They do something back, and so it goes on. The result is animosity and loathing on both sides.
It's Sirius and Lupin's saying that Snape was always trying to get them expelled that forces me to believe that Snape's dislike of them went way beyond what most kids would normally feel for kids that were annoying or mildly humiliating them. (Wynnleaf)
We have Sirius telling the trio in GoF that Snape was always sneaking around trying to get them expelled. (Soul search)
Where does it say 'always trying to get them expelled'? In POA, Sirius says something like 'serves him right' "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to...hoping to get us expelled...", This is Sirius's interpretation of Snape's actions on the evening of the Prank. He sees Snape snooping around, and concludes that he was trying to get them all expelled. But from what Lupin says, it is clear that Snape happened to see Lupin going to the Willow that evening, and that he saw Madam Pomfrey with him. Madam Pomfrey's presence would naturally mean that all was legal, so it was nothing more than curiosity that made Snape want to find out what Lupin was doing.
I see no evidence at all that Snape was always snooping around the Marauders trying to get them expelled.
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 1:50 pm (#348 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 3:12 pm
If Draco is to Harry what James was to Snape, then James was someone who used insults and taunts to "attack" Snape; who teased Snape, pushed his buttons and called him "Snivellus" just because he knew it bothered Snape. But who didn't draw a wand to Snape - regardless of what he might have done to other people - until his 5th year, in front of a crowd of onlookers. (Quinn)
Hm.. and do you think it is OK? To "push Snape's buttons", to insult and taunt Snape and draw a wand to him (torturing and humiliating him publicly) "because he exists" in the fifth year "only"? What is the point we are arguing right now? Are you saying that whatever James and Sirius did or said to Snape between the train scene and the Worst Memory was not important and should not have bothered him? That whatever it was that "finally" made James draw a wand to Snape in the fifth year was Snape's fault because he could not put up with five years of "mild" taunting and humiliation?
Then what exactly did Snape do to deserve the sudden "change" in the Marauders' attitude? I agree with Mona that "Snape trying to get them expelled" was Sirius's assessment of the situation but if it is true that Snape saw Madam Pomfrey with Lupin then the way Sirius explains Snape's actions ("trying to get them expelled") may not be any closer to the truth than Snape's own strong conviction that James and Lupin were Sirius's accomplices in the Prank. I think Sirius told Harry what he really thought. But if he did believe that Snape actually was trying to get them expelled, it indicates that the enmity was rather strong between the group and Snape at the time, i.e. the Marauders were aware how much their "mild taunting" must have bothered Snape - or why would they have attributed to him such degree of hostility?
Up until HBP, when Draco stomps on Harry's face (Jeez! How violent an image is that, JKR?) all Draco does is sneer and crack insults at Harry and company. But, why does Draco assault Harry? Because Harry - who, remember, is being compared to Snape - sneaked into Draco's compartment and was spying on him and his friends. (Quinn)
But why was Harry spying on Draco and his friends? Because Harry - who, remember, is being compared to Snape - thought that Draco was doing or planning to do something dangerous and evil (and he was right).
If Draco is to Harry what James was to Snape, then James was someone who used insults and taunts to "attack" Snape; who teased Snape, pushed his buttons and called him "Snivellus" just because he knew it bothered Snape.
Draco may not attack Harry personally until the sixth year (notice the similarity to the Worst Memory: first Draco disarms and immobilizes Harry and then he stomps on his face and breaks his nose - and Harry finds it all rather humiliating, only the onlookers are missing), however, Draco has two "little friends" who regularly act in a threatening way, they try to attack Harry and Ron already on the train in the first year. In fact, Draco does try to attack Harry earlier than the sixth year, only he is not successful. It is also Draco who tries to trap him with the Midnight Duel, which is not physical aggression but not verbal taunting either but a third form of attacks. If we insist that the comparison means that anything that happened in the second generation must have happened in the first one as well, then, Quinn, it logically follows from your argument that James must have tried to trap Snape into doing something illegal to get him into trouble even before Snape gave any reason that would make James's behaviour seem fair. (In fact, Sirius does something similar in the Prank.) Just on the basis of comparison, it may also follow that Snape was annoyed with James and friends and confronted them because the Marauders bullied others as well (remember the Remembrall incident during the first flying lesson in PS?). I would not go that far with the comparison, however. In certain cases JKR writes out similar scenes and then she does focus on certain similarities of these enmities and these similarities are both complex and important. However, my opinion is that just because Draco or Harry did something, in itself it is not proof that Snape or James must have done the same. Or if it is proof - then it is really up to the readers how far they are willing to take the comparison-based "evidence" beyond canon.
About the verbal taunting and the insults: The fact that James does not draw a wand in the train scene is easy to understand. He has recently got his wand and he does not know how to use it yet. IMO, the tripping indicates James's aggression while he cannot use his wand yet. As for the future, whether he fights with a wand or with his fists, it is bullying in either way. But I find it interesting that you seem to be arguing (correct me if I am wrong) that the Marauders' verbal taunting (prior to the end of the fifth year) did not matter (or something like that), yet in your post Nr. 236 on this thread you seemed to be saying that continuous verbal taunting may be enough reason to finally provoke physical response. Even the most even-tempered individual can only take so much of that sort of constant badgering. You were talking about Zidane and the time-period of a game, not of five years. If I understood you well, in that post you seemed to be saying that Snape may have taunted the Marauders over the years into reacting with physical aggression. (IMO "Snivellus" and the tripping in the train scene indicate there was no need for years of non-stop verbal taunting to push the Marauders' buttons.) You seemed to find that reaction understandable there, however, now you seem to be saying (and I am not at all sure that I interpret your posts in the correct way, so please explain if I am wrong) that it was somehow Snape's fault that he could not bear this "mild verbal taunting" over the years that you are attributing to the Marauders and that the Prank and the Worst Memory somehow "served him right" for trying to retaliate (and as far as we know, this "retaliation" meant only spying on them, not petrifying and beating them up or something like that - and Snape even got his "punishment" for it right then, so the Worst Memory torment seems to be an added bonus only). So is years of verbal taunting and "mild humiliation" OK or not? I suppose it should not matter whether it is Snape or James who is suspected of being guilty of it.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 27, 2008 4:22 pm (#349 of 2988)
Edited Aug 27, 2008 5:49 pm
Hm.. and do you think it is OK? To "push Snape's buttons", to insult and taunt Snape - Uh, no. In fact, I was the one who counted emotional button-pushing - which is what Snape does - as an "attack" and put them on a level with drawing a wand.
To me, there is no real comparison. Harry/Draco and James/Snape are two completely different rivalries.
You (and I'm not really trying to single out Julia H, here) are so determined to see Snape as this poor, misunderstood little outcast who everybody picked on for no apparent reason other than "because he exists". Saint Sev, was it? In your view, everything Snape does has some benign, even noble motivation ("He was only trying to prove they were doing something dangerous" "He thought he was dealing with a mass murderer"). I find this to be such an unrealistic view of this character that I think it would just be pointless for me to continue to participate in this discussion.
Soul Search - Aug 27, 2008 4:22 pm (#350 of 2988)
Julia H. brought up Snape's half-blood status on another thread and I thought it may apply to this discussion. I seem to recall "loner" applied to Snape in one of the descriptions we have. We have also noted that no Slytherins came to Snape's rescue in the Worst Memory scene, even though most fifth-year Slytherins had to have been around.
Did Snape get taunts and pranks from Slytherins too? For being half-blood. The only other half-blood Slytherin we know of was Voldemort.
Last edited by Mona on Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Julia H. - Aug 27, 2008 11:32 pm (#351 of 2988)
Edited Aug 28, 2008 12:55 am
In fact, I was the one who counted emotional button-pushing - which is what Snape does - as an "attack" and put them on a level with drawing a wand. (Quinn)
In that case, I don't know what the current discussion is about. To me it seemed the whole thing started by some posters practically saying that it was Snape who started the "real enmity" in the fifth year with spying on the Marauders, apparently hating them for either no real reason or because of Lily (other posters, not me, have shown the latter variation has no canon support). Later, you, Quinn, allowed that the Marauders may have been verbally taunting and mildly humiliating Snape over the five years between the train scene and the Worst Memory scene but apparently, you have maintained your opinion that Snape deserved the "suddenly" violent treatment of the Marauders, which, according to you (regardless of the train scene), only started in the fifth year. You seem to be saying that Snape was wrong to do anything to stop this "mild bullying". Yet, if you are saying verbal taunting can be as bad as physical bullying, then I don't understand why in your opinion Snape cannot react to years of verbal taunting and mild humiliation in the same way as to physical bullying. Just to make it clear: I don't think verbal taunting is the same as physical bullying but then I also think that we have a reason to suppose that the Marauders' treatment of Snape was more than just "mild humiliation" and verbal taunting - if we take what JKR writes as canon, of course. However, if you think verbal taunting equals physical bullying, I really see no reason why you find it a relevant question whether Snape reacted to verbal or physical bullying. I really would like to see where you find fault with Snape to make him sort of responsible for the eventual torture and serious humiliation he did suffer - according to canon - from the Marauders.
To me, there is no real comparison. Harry/Draco and James/Snape are two completely different rivalries.
I think there are important (and probably intentional) similarities and the two rivalries can be compared. However, not in the extreme way, you seemed to be suggesting. But at least we agree on this one now.
In your view, everything Snape does has some benign, even noble motivation ("He was only trying to prove they were doing something dangerous" "He thought he was dealing with a mass murderer").
I don't remember making the mass murderer comment. As for Lupin being dangerous, I think I wanted to say if Snape suspected Lupin's condition (and I think it was your interpretation, not mine) then it is understandable that he became curious about a seriously dangerous person living in Hogwarts, where, he, too, lived. There is nothing particularly noble or strange about that. Anybody in the muggle world could become interested when informed of the existence of a potentially very dangerous neighbour. In the context of the rivalry similarities, I said if we want to take the comparison beyond canon (and that is not something I started), we might end up thinking that Snape was spying on Lupin for a reason similar to Harry's for spying on Malfoy. If you read my comments, you probably noticed that I said I don't think we should take the comparison beyond canon either to absolve or to find fault with Snape.
You (and I'm not really trying to single out Julia H, here) are so determined to see Snape as this poor, misunderstood little outcast who everybody picked on for no apparent reason other than "because he exists".
Oh, no, I don't think I ever said that they picked on him for "no apparent reason". I am sure the Marauders had reasons to pick on Snape. I just don't think that these were the reasons some posters suggested and I definitely don't think these reasons truly justify the Marauders' behaviour. Nevertheless, there were reasons.
I find this to be such an unrealistic view of this character that I think it would just be pointless for me to continue to participate in this discussion.
Well, you certainly managed to make me feel "not singled out". Only you can decide in what discussions and under what conditions you are willing to participate. But it seems dismissing my opinion as talk of "Saint Sev" (without singling me out, of course) is probably easier than explaining things I don't understand in your point of view or disproving my arguments on the basis of canon.
Did Snape get taunts and pranks from Slytherins too? For being half-blood. The only other half-blood Slytherin we know of was Voldemort. (Soul Search)
There may have been other half-bloods, we don't know. However, since Slytherin House seems to be the place where truly blood-status-conscious pure-bloods are concentrated, it is very probable that half-bloods by definition had a lower social status among them (not officially but practically). I don't think I started this discussion in the first place but I said pure-blood kids probably knew which were the other pure-blood families, so Snape's blood-status is not likely to have been a secret, and I said Snape may have been compensating for his social status with his dark arts knowledge, academic achievement and spell inventions.
Dryleaves - Aug 28, 2008 1:00 am (#352 of 2988)
Edited Aug 28, 2008 2:04 am
You (and I'm not really trying to single out Julia H, here) are so determined to see Snape as this poor, misunderstood little outcast who everybody picked on for no apparent reason other than "because he exists". Saint Sev, was it? (Quinn)
I know that I have used the expression "no apparent reason". I will try to explain what I mean by this. We only have snapshots from Snape's childhood and this is just my impression of these few scenes and may not count as evidence at all.
Usually parents love their children just because they exist, not because they are nice, lovely kids. Snape's parents seem to neglect him. In the scenes from his early childhood where he is met by some sort of dislike nobody gives him any other reason but his address and his wish to be in Slytherin. I cannot see that he in these scenes is being disliked because he is hateful or sour in the first place. And if he is, at least nobody tells him so. He retaliates, he is not nice, but he is met with dislike before this.
I think this is one of the things that has formed this character. He is bitter towards other people very early on in his life. He may see no real reason to make an effort to be nice, because nobody will like him anyway. I think he creates an image of himself as special, intelligent and meant for greatness as some sort of survival strategy. He is always prepared for an attack, is soon to define what people say to him as an attack and always defends himself. Lily is an exception to this bitterness, in her he sees some hope and actually tries to befriend her.
His ego is very sensitive to attacks. He is easy to humiliate. I think he has very little sense of being valued just because he exists. He will show them that he is someone. Then he makes the mistake of his life and proves to himself who and what he really is. His ego is still there, but now mingled with self-doubt and hopelessness that he better not acknowledge too much. As an adult he is still prepared for attacks and "defends" himself before anything has actually happened. He does not want to be liked or just cannot hope for it, but wants recognition for his skill. From the students he demands respect (at least from those who are not Slytherin, from the Slytherins he might want recognition). He is torn between a feeling of actually deserving some of this, he is after all a human being and a skilled wizard; and a feeling of not deserving it at all because of what he has in fact done.
This is not meant to be a description of a saint but of a rather damaged and in many respects somewhat twisted person. But I do not agree with the view that this character always is guilty and basically deserves all that he gets. Many of the snapshots of the young Marauders show a gang of boys without any nobler motivations for their actions. And to me there is a point in the fact that we are shown scenes with typical bullying situations between Snape and the Marauders. Yes, Snape retaliates, but the balance of power in these scenes is an uneven one. But that is also the fact regarding the situations where Snape the adult teacher bully one of his students. When it comes to his treatment of Harry I think we finally get a very reasonable explanation for it in the books, but that does not mean Snape is excused for it.
It may be the situation that defines the victim and the perpetrator, and just because you see someone as a victim in a certain case it does not mean that you mean this person is all good and innocent. Then of course we can have different interpretations of the situation. Just because being the victim in a certain situation may have formed part of who you are, this is not the same as an excuse for being the perpetrator in another.
I wrote this with a child in my lap and was interrupted by a rather long phone call, in case I seem more incoherent than usual...
And maybe this was another discussion...
Julia H. - Aug 28, 2008 1:45 am (#353 of 2988)
Edited Aug 28, 2008 3:03 am
Dryleaves, this is an excellent post, very well said. Your description is an accurate description of how I view Snape as well. I don't know where "Saint Severus" is in this. It is not only innocent or perfect little angels who can suffer when tortured or humiliated. Victims of bullying, of violence are not saints just victims and such experiences do shape (in real life) the personality, the behaviour and the self-image of the victim then and in the future. And if the victim becomes a bad person later in his life, it still does not excuse (in retrospect) those who tortured and bullied him in the past. In the same way the bullying is not necessarily an excuse for him to become bad but it may be a reason: a part of his life experience affecting his life, his choices etc. (I don't think the Marauders can be excused for their bullying behaviour by anything Snape did according to canon or by anything they did later on. Nobody seems to think that Snape's sin can be excused in retrospect because of the good things he later did. In accordance with that, the Marauders' teenage cruelty is not excused by their adult lives either. I don't think the Marauders had the right or wisdom to somehow "pre-punish" Snape for his later life. Their behaviour was simple cruelty.) Snape makes grave mistakes in his life and he always pays for them. But I find the view that Snape is just bad from his early childhood and actually deserves whatever misfortunes (like neglect from his parents) and cruelty (the Prank and the Worst Memory) he has to suffer as a child or that these experiences somehow do not count when we discuss his character development rather extreme and unfair.
mona amon - Aug 28, 2008 9:52 am (#354 of 2988)
Edited Aug 28, 2008 10:57 am
Very good post, Dryleaves! I especially like this part- "It may be the situation that defines the victim and the perpetrator, and just because you see someone as a victim in a certain case it does not mean that you mean this person is all good and innocent. Then of course we can have different interpretations of the situation. Just because being the victim in a certain situation may have formed part of who you are, this is not the same as an excuse for being the perpetrator in another." But what a bleak picture of Severus! I wonder how much of a victim of his circumstances the author intended him to be.
We are shown that he was neglected as a child, but not abused. His parents argued all the time, and that's enough to make a child very insecure. His father 'didn't like anything much' and no doubt that includes Severus. But I wonder about his mother. Was it only poverty and depression that led her to neglect him? Or did she also not like him?
I find it difficult to believe that when JKR said in an interview that Snape had been loved, and 'that makes him more culpable than Voldemort' that she was talking about Lily's love. I can't imagine how the friendship of a child your own age for a few years can compensate for the lack of a mother's love, and make you more culpable than Voldemort if you go down the wrong path. In other words I think his mother did love him.
And then, it is true that a lot of people dislike him on sight because he's an oddball in odd clothes, and he never gives them a second chance, but we are shown a lot of people who do like him- Lily of course, who overcomes her initial suspicion of him and is his best friend for almost five years. She must have liked him. JKR tells us she might even have come to love him romantically if he had listened to her about the Death Eater friends (though that does not really come across to us in the books). Then there are the Malfoys, Slughorn, the Slytherins...And most important, there are his Slytherin friends that Lily keeps complaining about. I feel that in the end, getting kindness and acceptance from the wrong sort of people was a more important factor in Sev going wrong than the bullying from those who disliked him. When Lucius puts a protective arm around newly sorted Snape, one gets the feeling, "He's lost!"
As for his personality, I agree with you that he is very sensitive to attack. He seems afraid to let himself go and feel love or compassion for others. This is espcially evident in the Spinner's End chapter where he tries to ignore Narcissa's tears 'as if they were indecent'. I suppose that it is due to the childhood neglect and quarreling parents, and being teased because of his oddities, but to a certain extent at least, because that really is his personality.
Dryleaves - Aug 28, 2008 11:42 am (#355 of 2988)
I wonder how much of a victim of his circumstances the author intended him to be. (Mona)
That is an interesting question (and a very interesting post ). I would guess JKR means that circumstances matter but that they are not everything. At least it was something like that I meant... I did not mean to be a determinist. Harry grows up under similar circumstances, but turns out differently. I do not think that Snape was a complete victim but that early experiences "helped" to form him and were of importance for what he became.
I guess I have a pretty bleak picture of Snape, but I think you may be right that his mother did love him. But she also neglected him. Maybe she gave way to self-pity and could not care for him or show her love for him in a good way. And maybe some of that love is the cause of that rather stubborn ego he has after all, and of his ability to love. Still I do not think it was enough to make him feel secure. I think he was shown dislike by others often enough for it to make an impression on him.
I feel that in the end, getting kindness and acceptance from the wrong sort of people was a more important factor in Sev going wrong than the bullying from those who disliked him.
This is a good point. But this could be the other side of the coin. Somehow, even if he tries to keep people at a distance, he also seems to cling to those who actually like him or at least give him some acceptance.
Julia H. - Aug 28, 2008 2:49 pm (#356 of 2988)
Edited Aug 28, 2008 3:53 pm
I did not mean to be a determinist. Harry grows up under similar circumstances, but turns out differently. (Dryleaves)
I don't think you are a determinist. A lot of the HP series is about choices but it comes out very well (and in a realistic way) that few people have exactly the same kind of choices. I mean they may have to choose between the very same two things, yet the experiences behind them and their actual circumstances might be very different and that influences not only what they choose but how difficult or easy it is for them to decide.
Yes, Harry had experiences similar to those of Snape but also very different ones. But Harry is special. This is what DD tells him:
Yes, Harry, you can love... Which, given everything that has happened to you, is a great and remarkable thing. You are still too young to understand how unusual you are, Harry." (HBP)
If Harry is unusual, then perhaps Snape is meant to be an example of a more "usual" personality development under circumstances of neglect and solitude. Yet, even he can love though of course not in the way Harry can.
I think you may be right that his mother did love him. But she also neglected him.
She may have loved him. She probably loved him more than his father did at least. But she also neglected him. It seems even if she loved him, she could not very well express this love - she may have suffered from depression, for example. But children will not feel secure if they are loved but do not know about it, if they cannot take someone's love (typically the mother's love) for granted.
Other people loving or at least accepting Snape: Lily is the most important one, of course, but she cannot make up for the lack of parental love. Hm... is it possible that Snape was (subconsciously) expecting her (as his single most important friend and as a girl) to love him in a secure, unconditional way, which is something that children usually get from their mothers and their mothers only (not from their peers) and of course Lily could not give that to him?
The others: Lucius Malfoy's welcome or protection could only be a bad influence on Snape. But I don't think they were exactly friends in those days. The other Slytherins: we do not know what kind of "friendship" that was. We never see any Slytherins (apart from Malfoy's welcome) acting as friends (or in any other way) towards Snape. We only hear that Snape belonged to a gang of Slytherins - it probably means some kind of acceptance but we are not given any details about any personal friendship, which is not the same as belonging to the same gang. I mean Snape may have belonged to the gang and may have been accepted by them simply because he was a fellow Slytherin and because he wanted to have friends, wanted to be inside a community. That does not necessarily mean he had any real, personal friends among them. Then again, even this situation must have seemed better to him than not having any friends at all.
Slughorn: We only know that Slughorn remembers Snape as a talented potion maker and that he "thought he knew him" and would never have thought he would become a murderer. But I wonder if Snape belonged to the Slug Club. He may have, since Slughorn also invites Hermione, another talented student. However, we also know that Slughorn has a talent for picking students who are likely to become successful and influential people. I wonder if he ever viewed Snape as such, while he might certainly sense Hermione's potential for becoming someone important. Also, it is Harry, the Chosen One, who first mentions Hermione to him. In the case of Snape, it was probably only academic achievement and intelligence but no connections, no skills to socialize successfully, no recommendation from someone important, no leadership qualities, no famous name ... all in all, I am not sure if Slughorn may have thought it worth "collecting" Snape. Then again, while Slughorn is generally kind, he does not seem to pay much attention to students outside his club - even though being a Slytherin may make some difference. So if Snape was not a member of Slughorn's "inner circle", Slughorn's acceptance may have been general kindness and benevolence rather than any personal attention.
I feel that in the end, getting kindness and acceptance from the wrong sort of people was a more important factor in Sev going wrong than the bullying from those who disliked him. (Mona)
This is a good point. But this could be the other side of the coin. (Dryleaves)
I agree that these are the two sides of the same coin. It is difficult to make objective judgement if you are being bullied (disliked) by those who will turn out to be the good guys and are accepted by those who are the really bad ones. And does not McGonagall say your house is your family? (Not a word by word quote.) How important can this idea be to a child who does not have a real family or family life?
Somehow, even if he tries to keep people at a distance, he also seems to cling to those who actually like him or at least give him some acceptance. (Dryleaves)
Exactly. Perhaps these early experiences make him sort of "cling" to the Malfoys even when there can be no real friendship or even basic trust between them. I feel this is important in his relationship to DD as well. I imagine Snape may have been rather astonished when he eventually realized after the hilltop scene that DD was actually trying to help him, personally, as well, that DD was ready to accept him as a reformed DE, to give him a job by his side, to vouch for him, to give him a second chance in life. It seems to me that DD's acceptance plays a very important part in Snape's extreme loyalty to him (I know there is his guilt and his vow as well) because Snape seems to have at last found the father figure he had always needed: Someone who is both accepting/protecting and demanding at the same time, someone who can be respected and whose trust / good opinion is worth winning and deserving. So I think Snape clings to DD because he has found acceptance and trust with him despite his guilt and despite everything he did in the past while his loyalty to him shows (among other things) how far Snape is willing to go for the sake of someone who knows and accepts him.
IMO this implies that Snape probably always wanted to be known and accepted even to the point that he was ready to accept acceptance from the wrong corners. Having very little idea / experience about quality relationships (normal family life, real friendship), he did not have very high expectations and either "tried to keep people at a distance" (rejecting those he felt to be likely to reject him) or was clinging loyally and without criticism to anyone who accepted or at least tolerated him.
mona amon - Aug 29, 2008 3:30 am (#357 of 2988)
Edited Aug 29, 2008 4:32 am
I guess I have a pretty bleak picture of Snape, but I think you may be right that his mother did love him. But she also neglected him. Maybe she gave way to self-pity and could not care for him or show her love for him in a good way. And maybe some of that love is the cause of that rather stubborn ego he has after all, and of his ability to love. Still I do not think it was enough to make him feel secure. I think he was shown dislike by others often enough for it to make an impression on him. (Dryleaves)
I can agree with that!
Hm... is it possible that Snape was (subconsciously) expecting her (as his single most important friend and as a girl) to love him in a secure, unconditional way, which is something that children usually get from their mothers and their mothers only (not from their peers) and of course Lily could not give that to him? (Julia)
If he didn't get unconditional love from his mother I don't think he'd be expecting it from Lily or anyone else. He wouldn't even know what it is. It's those who get too much unconditional love from their parents (the spoilt brats, in other words) who expect it from others as well.
In fact I think it was almost the opposite. He felt that Lily would not like him unconditionally (and of course he was right), that she was such an exceptional girl that he had to prove himself to be worthy of her. And unfortunately he is so busy trying to do so, that he cannot hear her when she tells him what she really wants from him.
Julia H. - Aug 29, 2008 9:04 am (#358 of 2988)
Edited Aug 29, 2008 10:05 am
It's those who get too much unconditional love from their parents (the spoilt brats, in other words) who expect it from others as well. (Mona)
I don't know. I did not think of the spoilt brats. I think a mother's love is typically unconditional. We don't necessarily tell that to our children, but we will continue loving them whatever they do or not do. (Like Mrs Weasley, who never stops loving Percy.) In order to be emotionally secure, a child should feel there is someone, an adult, whose love does not depend on his/her school marks, achievement, general popularity and success or on the adult's mood or any other things. Typically, it is the mother who loves her children in this way (individual situations vary, of course). A father (again only typically, traditionally, archetypically etc.) loves the child but has clear expectations, demands, which is a type of love the child also has to experience, and the father's good or bad opinion may become very important as the child gets older. Perhaps it is more so in father - son relationships; a father - daughter relationship may be important in a different way. I think Snape misses a normal relationship with his father very much and that may be one of the reasons behind his terrible mistakes as he is trying to find appreciation in the wrong places. (That may be the reason why Lucius patting him on the back is dangerous to him and perhaps it is a factor in his eventual tragic decision to join and serve a powerful wizard like LV.)
But you may be right that without experiencing unconditional love in his early childhood, he may not be able to expect it from anyone - I certainly agree that he is not likely to believe that he could really get it from anyone even if he should long for being loved in this way (or at all).
In fact I think it was almost the opposite. He felt that Lily would not like him unconditionally (and of course he was right), that she was such an exceptional girl that he had to prove himself to be worthy of her. And unfortunately he is so busy trying to do so, that he cannot hear her when she tells him what she really wants from him. (Mona)
That sounds quite convincing, actually.
mona amon - Sep 4, 2008 6:29 pm (#359 of 2988)
I don't know. I did not think of the spoilt brats. I think a mother's love is typically unconditional.
Julia, you are right. After posting it suddenly occurred to me, 'Hey, it's not unconditional love that turns a child into a spoiled brat, it's other things', but when I came to post a correction, I couldn't get on the Forum!
But the question still remains, did he get unconditional love from his mother or not? I don't think that question is answered in the book.
Julia H. - Sep 4, 2008 11:18 pm (#360 of 2988)
No, it is not answered. All we see is that his mother does not seem to make him feel to be really loved but we don't know why. We don't know whether it is because she does not really love him or because she has psychological problems of her own. We know she is afraid of a muggle husband, who apparently does not like their child, and she does not seem to try to do anything to change the situation. But it is already bad enough for a child if he does not feel he is loved (at least not in the way he needs it). Yet, Snape's mother definitely seems to be significantly closer to him than his father. I think the bigger problem of the two is the father for Snape and the mother is not able to help.
PeskyPixie - Sep 5, 2008 10:54 am (#361 of 2988)
Yay! I'm finally all caught up on this thread. I've missed some great discussions, though.
Here's hoping for more!
BTW, mona, "I've come across this phrase 'you'd better be...' or 'you'd better get...' or 'you'd better win...' quite often in my reading, used in a similar manner to the way Snape uses it. It's a playful way of saying 'I wish with all my heart that this will happen, so it had better happen.'I don't see how it can possibly be misinterpreted by James as a threat to Lily."
That's how I see it as well. James isn't particularly chivalrous towards Lily during their first encounter anyway. He mimics her when she leaves the compartment with Severus, doesn't he?
I also feel that JKR has a lot of backstory for all of her characters and had to be very strict on herself about those which would be allowed into the body of the stories. Thus, I feel that each of Snape's flashbacks is significant to his character and his role in the books. I find it poor logic to say, "Ah, it's just there, there's nothing more to it."
JKR presents us with an extremely hostile relationship between Snape and the Marauders and takes the time and space away from the main plot (i.e. Harry vs. Big V) to show us snapshots from different stages of it, including the very first interaction between these characters. These moments can easily be arranged in chronological order by the reader, and a story emerges, one in which there is no complete 'good' or 'bad' on either side, but youthful mistakes with harsh consequences. These moments are meant to be viewed as a single backstory; I'd go as far as to say that perhaps JKR means for the reader to 'connect-the-dots' (with logic, as we're given much information regarding this relationship by characters in the 'present-day' story in the books as well). Of course, different pictures emerge for each reader, and part of the fun of this thread is examining these different interpretations. However, my main point is that each scene from Snape's past, as well as each reference to it, is there for a reason; together they tell a story. I don't think JKR took the time to include so much detail in order for it to be dismissed on grounds of 'not enough evidence'.
PeskyPixie - Sep 5, 2008 8:56 pm (#362 of 2988)
Goodness, have I killed the discussion with one post?
poohnpiglettt - Sep 7, 2008 5:25 am (#363 of 2988)
"However, my main point is that each scene from Snape's past, as well as each reference to it, is there for a reason; together they tell a story." PeskyPixie
I very much agree with this point. I have never posted on this thread but I love reading the discussions back and forth. They have constantly made me run back to my books to check out information thinking things like "she said that after that happened?" or "I thought he said that first." Rereading the scenes from Snape's past I tried to think of what Snape was trying to tell Harry (and JKR the readers) with each memory. Looking at the memories as a whole, the main reason (IMO) seems to be to explain to Harry (and the reader) why Snape acted as he did (love for Lily which started in childhood), that he was truly DD's man, as well as to explain what Harry had to do. The scene on the train seems to me to really not do any of those except that he wants Lily to be in Slytherin. It seems to me that maybe this was an explanation to Harry for the duplicity in Snape's treatment of him. All the scenes with and about Lily show why Snape was really trying to save Harry--out of love for Lily. That scene seems to say the opposite in regards to James--Snape was nasty and unpleasant to Harry because of hatred of James, which we already know. But this further emphasizes that Snapes negative treatment of Harry with him, that it started long before that, in childhood--not exactly an apology but a "look, Harry, it had nothing to do with you--it started way back then."
Julia H. - Sep 7, 2008 3:01 pm (#364 of 2988)
I also agree with Pesky's post.
But this further emphasizes that Snapes negative treatment of Harry with him, that it started long before that, in childhood--not exactly an apology but a "look, Harry, it had nothing to do with you--it started way back then." poohnpiglettt
Interesting interpretation... Perhaps in this context we may even think that the train scene is there because it is easy for Harry to understand since he also experienced something very similar (and Snape may even know about it from Draco). Actually, inherited house rivalry may be something that many Hogwarts students experience early on.
mona amon - Sep 7, 2008 6:21 pm (#365 of 2988)
The scene on the train seems to me to really not do any of those except that he wants Lily to be in Slytherin. It seems to me that maybe this was an explanation to Harry for the duplicity in Snape's treatment of him. All the scenes with and about Lily show why Snape was really trying to save Harry--out of love for Lily. That scene seems to say the opposite in regards to James--Snape was nasty and unpleasant to Harry because of hatred of James, which we already know. (Poohnpiglet)
I feel we have to distinguish here between the author's reasons for giving the readers certain bits of information, and Snape's reasons for giving Harry the memories that he did. Snape seems to have selected those memories that show Harry
That he had a bit of Voldemort's soul in him (the silver doe memory)
That he was Dumbledore's man (so that he would trust him about the soulbit information)
That he always loved Lily, and what went wrong with that relationship (it was part of the explanation of why he was Dumbledore's man)
So he gives Harry the memories that support these points, but these are pensieve memories. Snape cannot be too selective. There may be information there that he did not particularly want to show Harry, but had to because it was part of the memory. The author on the other hand uses the memories to give us readers some backstory on other characters besides Snape- Lily, James and the other Marauders, Petunia, Mr. and Mrs. Evans, Snape's parents, Dumbledore.
We are never really given a glimpse into the mind of Snape. Even here, in the memories that he gives Harry, when he is confessing everything, it's difficult to guess his motivations exactly. But somehow I do not feel he was trying to explain or justify his negative conduct towards Harry. Did he even realise that it was due to his own hang-ups and nothing to do with Harry?
Orion - Sep 8, 2008 2:50 am (#366 of 2988)
The Prince's Tale sums up the backstory for the reader. It must have been very difficult for the author to compile scenes which tell the readers everything they need to know, but only those which can be justified as being important for Harry to see at this specific moment.
Some of these scenes seem like "readers only" and make you think "Snape, you have so little time, why do you bother to get Harry this?" or think "Snape, are you sure you want Harry to see this?" But for the sake of a convincing build-up in the line of events which turned Snape into a DE and then later a spy these scenes have to be there. And we have to accept that Snape wants to make his life story a rounded and logical affair so that Harry first "gets it" without any doubts or incongruencies and then "believes it" so that he walks to his death as a *spew* "saviour". *spew* (If somebody tells you you have to die for the cause, be wary, very wary.)
Julia H. - Sep 8, 2008 4:25 am (#367 of 2988)
We are never really given a glimpse into the mind of Snape. Even here, in the memories that he gives Harry, when he is confessing everything, it's difficult to guess his motivations exactly. But somehow I do not feel he was trying to explain or justify his negative conduct towards Harry. Did he even realise that it was due to his own hang-ups and nothing to do with Harry? (Mona)
As you say, we cannot really know. But I think even if we do not know what exactly is going on in his mind, we can probably suppose that there are things going on in his mind (he is a human being with an active mind, after all) so it is OK to make guesses as far as we accept that they are guesses. Otherwise there is not much to talk about. I mean it is interesting to discuss Snape's guilt and obvious faults again and again but perhaps we are "advanced" enough to sometimes move on to more speculative areas of discussion "leaving behind the firm foundation of fact and journeying together through the murky marshes of memory into the thickets of wildest guesswork". We just have to know where we are.
Some of these scenes seem like "readers only" and make you think "Snape, you have so little time, why do you bother to get Harry this?" or think "Snape, are you sure you want Harry to see this?" (Orion)
Yes, it is difficult to believe that it is Snape who definitely wants Harry to see his Worst Memory again even if we accept that minutes before one's death priorities might get re-ordered.
We might just suppose that some memories get into the foreground of his mind by free association (stream of consciousness) and then come out of his head with the other memories.
wynnleaf - Sep 12, 2008 7:18 am (#368 of 2988)
Edited Sep 12, 2008 8:19 am
Hi everyone! The Forum is back, and I'm back to the Forum, after moving halfway across the country and finally getting internet started up again. I've missed you all. I've got to read some posts now....
mona amon - Sep 12, 2008 10:15 am (#369 of 2988)
Yay! The Forum is back, the FFF is back, the Lexicon is back and Wynnleaf's back!
Some of these scenes seem like "readers only" and make you think "Snape, you have so little time, why do you bother to get Harry this?" or think "Snape, are you sure you want Harry to see this?" But for the sake of a convincing build-up in the line of events which turned Snape into a DE and then later a spy these scenes have to be there. And we have to accept that Snape wants to make his life story a rounded and logical affair so that Harry first "gets it" without any doubts or incongruencies and then "believes it" so that he walks to his death as a *spew* "saviour". *spew* (If somebody tells you you have to die for the cause, be wary, very wary.) (Orion)
I agree. But I think there are some parts of the memories that he would definitely have omitted if it was a written confession that he was giving Harry. Petunia, for instance. I do not think he would have considered her important to his story. But because these are Pensive memories, he has to show Harry every little thing that's connected with the main memory. In other words, I agree that every memory Snape selected for Harry had a reason behind it, but we need not think that every single detail of each memory was there for a reason. (Other than the author's reasons)
Hope that makes sense. It's rather late out here.
Julia H. - Sep 12, 2008 11:00 am (#370 of 2988)
Edited Sep 12, 2008 12:01 pm
Welcome back, Wynnleaf! We missed you, too! (We often missed the whole Forum as well.)
But I think there are some parts of the memories that he would definitely have omitted if it was a written confession that he was giving Harry. (Mona)
Of course, it is so. But it is a different situation where a whole memory is there for the author's reason only - even if we can explain how it got there when we want to.
legolas returns - Sep 12, 2008 1:24 pm (#371 of 2988)
Edited Sep 12, 2008 2:26 pm
In previous books it seemed that people had to individually remove memories. Dumbledore/Snape extracted single memories in front of Harry.
All SNape was asked to do by Dumbledore was to tell Harry that he carried a piece of Voldemorts soul.
I have always wondered whether Snapes life and in particular everything relating to Lily is flashing in front of him as his life ebbs away hence the flood of memories rather than the individual memory strands. I dont think that he could control the memories he showed.
Soul Search - Sep 12, 2008 2:32 pm (#372 of 2988)
Edited Sep 12, 2008 3:36 pm
I have wondered about "The Prince's Tale" from a literary standpoint. The chapter title does suggest that it is all about Snape, yet it contains more memories that would be strictly needed to convince Harry he carries a Voldemort soul-bit. How much of the chapter was planned from the beginning and how much was added or given extra detail because of fan "interest?"
JKR has said the Snape character started out being rather minor but "got away" from her. And, she doesn't particularly like the Snape character since she used a real model she didn't like. Yet, a strong interest in Snape developed as each book was released. The publisher even used this interest in a "Good Snape/Bad Snape" promotional campaign for Deathly Hallows. There had to be something about him in the final book!
Authors have had to succumb to fan pressure before. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle resurrected Sherlock Holmes and, I understand, J. R. R. Tolkien went through revisions of Lord of the Rings as well. Yet, JKR has had extreme fan pressure as she was writing successive books. The internet and interest like the Lexicon and various forums, like this one, had to exert some pressure. We know she used the Lexicon to look up little details and that she even posted on some forums. If we go by the number of "Snape" posts on this forum, the Snape character was the most popular by far. Had to be tough. And for a character she didn't much like.
Julia H. - Sep 12, 2008 3:19 pm (#373 of 2988)
In previous books it seemed that people had to individually remove memories. (legolas returns)
And they used their wands to do it. This may be a different level of magic.
All SNape was asked to do by Dumbledore was to tell Harry that he carried a piece of Voldemorts soul.
I think DD knew what he was doing and he knew how difficult it would be for Snape to give Harry the message. He knew Snape would be isolated from everyone on the good side and Harry would not believe him unless Snape could get his trust first, which would require Snape to open up to Harry.
I find it interesting that DD, who never opened up to anyone, was practically (and I think knowingly) forcing Snape to open up to Harry, something Snape had never wanted to do, something Snape could only be forced to do as a means of doing his duty and a means of fulfilling his promise.
I dont think that he could control the memories he showed.
He must have had some control at least because he had to deliver a specific message. But then one memory may have helped to recall another one and even in this case, he must have at least known and accepted that Harry was getting all of those memories even including some that he did not specifically want Harry to see.
Interesting post, Soul Search, though it is a bit disappointing to think the Snape character may have been practically a result of fan pressure only. In DH, JKR does not really seem to relate Snape to his former teacher any more, I mean at least the "bad teacher" aspect of Snape is not present any more and other, quite different aspects are introduced.
wynnleaf - Sep 12, 2008 5:10 pm (#374 of 2988)
The memories aren't random, not even a random grouping of memories of Lily. They all lead in a progression to explain Snape's actions, motivations, etc. -- well, maybe not clearly explain, but at least address the issues. So I think Snape must have chosen them specifically. I thought he'd perhaps chosen them previously, knowing that eventually he'd have to convince Harry to trust him. Perhaps he'd planned on pensieve memories. He could have known from DD's portrait that DD had explained to Harry how to tell real memories from alterations, so he could expect Harry to look at pensieve memories and realize they were the real thing.
Was some of the The Prince's Tale in order to bend to fan interest? I don't think so. Instead, I think that JKR, like many writers, found that the character got away from her and became bigger than she expected. I don't think it was the fans demands, but the demands of the character that pushed her to explain so much in that chapter. I can't believe that Snape was always such a "minor" character, regards what she says. She must always have had the plot points where Snape knew and cared for Lily, took the prophecy to LV, spied for DD, secretly protected Harry, killed Dumbledore, and has his true colors revealed at the end. Even in that brief summary it's clear he had to be quite important throughout the story.
Dryleaves - Sep 13, 2008 1:22 am (#375 of 2988)
How much of the chapter was planned from the beginning and how much was added or given extra detail because of fan "interest?"
JKR has said the Snape character started out being rather minor but "got away" from her. And, she doesn't particularly like the Snape character since she used a real model she didn't like. (Soul Search)
JKR may not have liked the model from real life, but I do think she likes Snape as a character, at least. I think I read somewhere that she thought Snape was fun to write, because he was deeply horrible or something like that. I think (but of course this is pure speculation) that the character "got away" from her pretty soon and got a life of its own. Snape is important to the plot, though, and this, I believe, was all clear from the beginning. I think we were always meant to have the true loyalties and motivations of Snape revealed in the last book.
I think the details of "The Prince's Tale" chapter are needed within the HP series to explain the Snape character as it has turned out during the course of the books, therefore I agree with Wynnleaf that it probably was the character itself that pushed her to make the explanations. Had a lot of it been omitted, I think the books would have been left with a huge loose thread, as Snape had already become an important character in the previous books.
Of course writers are susceptible to fan pressure, both consciously and unconsciously, but I do not think this is the main reason for giving the details of the chapter in question.
Edited Aug 28, 2008 12:55 am
In fact, I was the one who counted emotional button-pushing - which is what Snape does - as an "attack" and put them on a level with drawing a wand. (Quinn)
In that case, I don't know what the current discussion is about. To me it seemed the whole thing started by some posters practically saying that it was Snape who started the "real enmity" in the fifth year with spying on the Marauders, apparently hating them for either no real reason or because of Lily (other posters, not me, have shown the latter variation has no canon support). Later, you, Quinn, allowed that the Marauders may have been verbally taunting and mildly humiliating Snape over the five years between the train scene and the Worst Memory scene but apparently, you have maintained your opinion that Snape deserved the "suddenly" violent treatment of the Marauders, which, according to you (regardless of the train scene), only started in the fifth year. You seem to be saying that Snape was wrong to do anything to stop this "mild bullying". Yet, if you are saying verbal taunting can be as bad as physical bullying, then I don't understand why in your opinion Snape cannot react to years of verbal taunting and mild humiliation in the same way as to physical bullying. Just to make it clear: I don't think verbal taunting is the same as physical bullying but then I also think that we have a reason to suppose that the Marauders' treatment of Snape was more than just "mild humiliation" and verbal taunting - if we take what JKR writes as canon, of course. However, if you think verbal taunting equals physical bullying, I really see no reason why you find it a relevant question whether Snape reacted to verbal or physical bullying. I really would like to see where you find fault with Snape to make him sort of responsible for the eventual torture and serious humiliation he did suffer - according to canon - from the Marauders.
To me, there is no real comparison. Harry/Draco and James/Snape are two completely different rivalries.
I think there are important (and probably intentional) similarities and the two rivalries can be compared. However, not in the extreme way, you seemed to be suggesting. But at least we agree on this one now.
In your view, everything Snape does has some benign, even noble motivation ("He was only trying to prove they were doing something dangerous" "He thought he was dealing with a mass murderer").
I don't remember making the mass murderer comment. As for Lupin being dangerous, I think I wanted to say if Snape suspected Lupin's condition (and I think it was your interpretation, not mine) then it is understandable that he became curious about a seriously dangerous person living in Hogwarts, where, he, too, lived. There is nothing particularly noble or strange about that. Anybody in the muggle world could become interested when informed of the existence of a potentially very dangerous neighbour. In the context of the rivalry similarities, I said if we want to take the comparison beyond canon (and that is not something I started), we might end up thinking that Snape was spying on Lupin for a reason similar to Harry's for spying on Malfoy. If you read my comments, you probably noticed that I said I don't think we should take the comparison beyond canon either to absolve or to find fault with Snape.
You (and I'm not really trying to single out Julia H, here) are so determined to see Snape as this poor, misunderstood little outcast who everybody picked on for no apparent reason other than "because he exists".
Oh, no, I don't think I ever said that they picked on him for "no apparent reason". I am sure the Marauders had reasons to pick on Snape. I just don't think that these were the reasons some posters suggested and I definitely don't think these reasons truly justify the Marauders' behaviour. Nevertheless, there were reasons.
I find this to be such an unrealistic view of this character that I think it would just be pointless for me to continue to participate in this discussion.
Well, you certainly managed to make me feel "not singled out". Only you can decide in what discussions and under what conditions you are willing to participate. But it seems dismissing my opinion as talk of "Saint Sev" (without singling me out, of course) is probably easier than explaining things I don't understand in your point of view or disproving my arguments on the basis of canon.
Did Snape get taunts and pranks from Slytherins too? For being half-blood. The only other half-blood Slytherin we know of was Voldemort. (Soul Search)
There may have been other half-bloods, we don't know. However, since Slytherin House seems to be the place where truly blood-status-conscious pure-bloods are concentrated, it is very probable that half-bloods by definition had a lower social status among them (not officially but practically). I don't think I started this discussion in the first place but I said pure-blood kids probably knew which were the other pure-blood families, so Snape's blood-status is not likely to have been a secret, and I said Snape may have been compensating for his social status with his dark arts knowledge, academic achievement and spell inventions.
Dryleaves - Aug 28, 2008 1:00 am (#352 of 2988)
Edited Aug 28, 2008 2:04 am
You (and I'm not really trying to single out Julia H, here) are so determined to see Snape as this poor, misunderstood little outcast who everybody picked on for no apparent reason other than "because he exists". Saint Sev, was it? (Quinn)
I know that I have used the expression "no apparent reason". I will try to explain what I mean by this. We only have snapshots from Snape's childhood and this is just my impression of these few scenes and may not count as evidence at all.
Usually parents love their children just because they exist, not because they are nice, lovely kids. Snape's parents seem to neglect him. In the scenes from his early childhood where he is met by some sort of dislike nobody gives him any other reason but his address and his wish to be in Slytherin. I cannot see that he in these scenes is being disliked because he is hateful or sour in the first place. And if he is, at least nobody tells him so. He retaliates, he is not nice, but he is met with dislike before this.
I think this is one of the things that has formed this character. He is bitter towards other people very early on in his life. He may see no real reason to make an effort to be nice, because nobody will like him anyway. I think he creates an image of himself as special, intelligent and meant for greatness as some sort of survival strategy. He is always prepared for an attack, is soon to define what people say to him as an attack and always defends himself. Lily is an exception to this bitterness, in her he sees some hope and actually tries to befriend her.
His ego is very sensitive to attacks. He is easy to humiliate. I think he has very little sense of being valued just because he exists. He will show them that he is someone. Then he makes the mistake of his life and proves to himself who and what he really is. His ego is still there, but now mingled with self-doubt and hopelessness that he better not acknowledge too much. As an adult he is still prepared for attacks and "defends" himself before anything has actually happened. He does not want to be liked or just cannot hope for it, but wants recognition for his skill. From the students he demands respect (at least from those who are not Slytherin, from the Slytherins he might want recognition). He is torn between a feeling of actually deserving some of this, he is after all a human being and a skilled wizard; and a feeling of not deserving it at all because of what he has in fact done.
This is not meant to be a description of a saint but of a rather damaged and in many respects somewhat twisted person. But I do not agree with the view that this character always is guilty and basically deserves all that he gets. Many of the snapshots of the young Marauders show a gang of boys without any nobler motivations for their actions. And to me there is a point in the fact that we are shown scenes with typical bullying situations between Snape and the Marauders. Yes, Snape retaliates, but the balance of power in these scenes is an uneven one. But that is also the fact regarding the situations where Snape the adult teacher bully one of his students. When it comes to his treatment of Harry I think we finally get a very reasonable explanation for it in the books, but that does not mean Snape is excused for it.
It may be the situation that defines the victim and the perpetrator, and just because you see someone as a victim in a certain case it does not mean that you mean this person is all good and innocent. Then of course we can have different interpretations of the situation. Just because being the victim in a certain situation may have formed part of who you are, this is not the same as an excuse for being the perpetrator in another.
I wrote this with a child in my lap and was interrupted by a rather long phone call, in case I seem more incoherent than usual...
And maybe this was another discussion...
Julia H. - Aug 28, 2008 1:45 am (#353 of 2988)
Edited Aug 28, 2008 3:03 am
Dryleaves, this is an excellent post, very well said. Your description is an accurate description of how I view Snape as well. I don't know where "Saint Severus" is in this. It is not only innocent or perfect little angels who can suffer when tortured or humiliated. Victims of bullying, of violence are not saints just victims and such experiences do shape (in real life) the personality, the behaviour and the self-image of the victim then and in the future. And if the victim becomes a bad person later in his life, it still does not excuse (in retrospect) those who tortured and bullied him in the past. In the same way the bullying is not necessarily an excuse for him to become bad but it may be a reason: a part of his life experience affecting his life, his choices etc. (I don't think the Marauders can be excused for their bullying behaviour by anything Snape did according to canon or by anything they did later on. Nobody seems to think that Snape's sin can be excused in retrospect because of the good things he later did. In accordance with that, the Marauders' teenage cruelty is not excused by their adult lives either. I don't think the Marauders had the right or wisdom to somehow "pre-punish" Snape for his later life. Their behaviour was simple cruelty.) Snape makes grave mistakes in his life and he always pays for them. But I find the view that Snape is just bad from his early childhood and actually deserves whatever misfortunes (like neglect from his parents) and cruelty (the Prank and the Worst Memory) he has to suffer as a child or that these experiences somehow do not count when we discuss his character development rather extreme and unfair.
mona amon - Aug 28, 2008 9:52 am (#354 of 2988)
Edited Aug 28, 2008 10:57 am
Very good post, Dryleaves! I especially like this part- "It may be the situation that defines the victim and the perpetrator, and just because you see someone as a victim in a certain case it does not mean that you mean this person is all good and innocent. Then of course we can have different interpretations of the situation. Just because being the victim in a certain situation may have formed part of who you are, this is not the same as an excuse for being the perpetrator in another." But what a bleak picture of Severus! I wonder how much of a victim of his circumstances the author intended him to be.
We are shown that he was neglected as a child, but not abused. His parents argued all the time, and that's enough to make a child very insecure. His father 'didn't like anything much' and no doubt that includes Severus. But I wonder about his mother. Was it only poverty and depression that led her to neglect him? Or did she also not like him?
I find it difficult to believe that when JKR said in an interview that Snape had been loved, and 'that makes him more culpable than Voldemort' that she was talking about Lily's love. I can't imagine how the friendship of a child your own age for a few years can compensate for the lack of a mother's love, and make you more culpable than Voldemort if you go down the wrong path. In other words I think his mother did love him.
And then, it is true that a lot of people dislike him on sight because he's an oddball in odd clothes, and he never gives them a second chance, but we are shown a lot of people who do like him- Lily of course, who overcomes her initial suspicion of him and is his best friend for almost five years. She must have liked him. JKR tells us she might even have come to love him romantically if he had listened to her about the Death Eater friends (though that does not really come across to us in the books). Then there are the Malfoys, Slughorn, the Slytherins...And most important, there are his Slytherin friends that Lily keeps complaining about. I feel that in the end, getting kindness and acceptance from the wrong sort of people was a more important factor in Sev going wrong than the bullying from those who disliked him. When Lucius puts a protective arm around newly sorted Snape, one gets the feeling, "He's lost!"
As for his personality, I agree with you that he is very sensitive to attack. He seems afraid to let himself go and feel love or compassion for others. This is espcially evident in the Spinner's End chapter where he tries to ignore Narcissa's tears 'as if they were indecent'. I suppose that it is due to the childhood neglect and quarreling parents, and being teased because of his oddities, but to a certain extent at least, because that really is his personality.
Dryleaves - Aug 28, 2008 11:42 am (#355 of 2988)
I wonder how much of a victim of his circumstances the author intended him to be. (Mona)
That is an interesting question (and a very interesting post ). I would guess JKR means that circumstances matter but that they are not everything. At least it was something like that I meant... I did not mean to be a determinist. Harry grows up under similar circumstances, but turns out differently. I do not think that Snape was a complete victim but that early experiences "helped" to form him and were of importance for what he became.
I guess I have a pretty bleak picture of Snape, but I think you may be right that his mother did love him. But she also neglected him. Maybe she gave way to self-pity and could not care for him or show her love for him in a good way. And maybe some of that love is the cause of that rather stubborn ego he has after all, and of his ability to love. Still I do not think it was enough to make him feel secure. I think he was shown dislike by others often enough for it to make an impression on him.
I feel that in the end, getting kindness and acceptance from the wrong sort of people was a more important factor in Sev going wrong than the bullying from those who disliked him.
This is a good point. But this could be the other side of the coin. Somehow, even if he tries to keep people at a distance, he also seems to cling to those who actually like him or at least give him some acceptance.
Julia H. - Aug 28, 2008 2:49 pm (#356 of 2988)
Edited Aug 28, 2008 3:53 pm
I did not mean to be a determinist. Harry grows up under similar circumstances, but turns out differently. (Dryleaves)
I don't think you are a determinist. A lot of the HP series is about choices but it comes out very well (and in a realistic way) that few people have exactly the same kind of choices. I mean they may have to choose between the very same two things, yet the experiences behind them and their actual circumstances might be very different and that influences not only what they choose but how difficult or easy it is for them to decide.
Yes, Harry had experiences similar to those of Snape but also very different ones. But Harry is special. This is what DD tells him:
Yes, Harry, you can love... Which, given everything that has happened to you, is a great and remarkable thing. You are still too young to understand how unusual you are, Harry." (HBP)
If Harry is unusual, then perhaps Snape is meant to be an example of a more "usual" personality development under circumstances of neglect and solitude. Yet, even he can love though of course not in the way Harry can.
I think you may be right that his mother did love him. But she also neglected him.
She may have loved him. She probably loved him more than his father did at least. But she also neglected him. It seems even if she loved him, she could not very well express this love - she may have suffered from depression, for example. But children will not feel secure if they are loved but do not know about it, if they cannot take someone's love (typically the mother's love) for granted.
Other people loving or at least accepting Snape: Lily is the most important one, of course, but she cannot make up for the lack of parental love. Hm... is it possible that Snape was (subconsciously) expecting her (as his single most important friend and as a girl) to love him in a secure, unconditional way, which is something that children usually get from their mothers and their mothers only (not from their peers) and of course Lily could not give that to him?
The others: Lucius Malfoy's welcome or protection could only be a bad influence on Snape. But I don't think they were exactly friends in those days. The other Slytherins: we do not know what kind of "friendship" that was. We never see any Slytherins (apart from Malfoy's welcome) acting as friends (or in any other way) towards Snape. We only hear that Snape belonged to a gang of Slytherins - it probably means some kind of acceptance but we are not given any details about any personal friendship, which is not the same as belonging to the same gang. I mean Snape may have belonged to the gang and may have been accepted by them simply because he was a fellow Slytherin and because he wanted to have friends, wanted to be inside a community. That does not necessarily mean he had any real, personal friends among them. Then again, even this situation must have seemed better to him than not having any friends at all.
Slughorn: We only know that Slughorn remembers Snape as a talented potion maker and that he "thought he knew him" and would never have thought he would become a murderer. But I wonder if Snape belonged to the Slug Club. He may have, since Slughorn also invites Hermione, another talented student. However, we also know that Slughorn has a talent for picking students who are likely to become successful and influential people. I wonder if he ever viewed Snape as such, while he might certainly sense Hermione's potential for becoming someone important. Also, it is Harry, the Chosen One, who first mentions Hermione to him. In the case of Snape, it was probably only academic achievement and intelligence but no connections, no skills to socialize successfully, no recommendation from someone important, no leadership qualities, no famous name ... all in all, I am not sure if Slughorn may have thought it worth "collecting" Snape. Then again, while Slughorn is generally kind, he does not seem to pay much attention to students outside his club - even though being a Slytherin may make some difference. So if Snape was not a member of Slughorn's "inner circle", Slughorn's acceptance may have been general kindness and benevolence rather than any personal attention.
I feel that in the end, getting kindness and acceptance from the wrong sort of people was a more important factor in Sev going wrong than the bullying from those who disliked him. (Mona)
This is a good point. But this could be the other side of the coin. (Dryleaves)
I agree that these are the two sides of the same coin. It is difficult to make objective judgement if you are being bullied (disliked) by those who will turn out to be the good guys and are accepted by those who are the really bad ones. And does not McGonagall say your house is your family? (Not a word by word quote.) How important can this idea be to a child who does not have a real family or family life?
Somehow, even if he tries to keep people at a distance, he also seems to cling to those who actually like him or at least give him some acceptance. (Dryleaves)
Exactly. Perhaps these early experiences make him sort of "cling" to the Malfoys even when there can be no real friendship or even basic trust between them. I feel this is important in his relationship to DD as well. I imagine Snape may have been rather astonished when he eventually realized after the hilltop scene that DD was actually trying to help him, personally, as well, that DD was ready to accept him as a reformed DE, to give him a job by his side, to vouch for him, to give him a second chance in life. It seems to me that DD's acceptance plays a very important part in Snape's extreme loyalty to him (I know there is his guilt and his vow as well) because Snape seems to have at last found the father figure he had always needed: Someone who is both accepting/protecting and demanding at the same time, someone who can be respected and whose trust / good opinion is worth winning and deserving. So I think Snape clings to DD because he has found acceptance and trust with him despite his guilt and despite everything he did in the past while his loyalty to him shows (among other things) how far Snape is willing to go for the sake of someone who knows and accepts him.
IMO this implies that Snape probably always wanted to be known and accepted even to the point that he was ready to accept acceptance from the wrong corners. Having very little idea / experience about quality relationships (normal family life, real friendship), he did not have very high expectations and either "tried to keep people at a distance" (rejecting those he felt to be likely to reject him) or was clinging loyally and without criticism to anyone who accepted or at least tolerated him.
mona amon - Aug 29, 2008 3:30 am (#357 of 2988)
Edited Aug 29, 2008 4:32 am
I guess I have a pretty bleak picture of Snape, but I think you may be right that his mother did love him. But she also neglected him. Maybe she gave way to self-pity and could not care for him or show her love for him in a good way. And maybe some of that love is the cause of that rather stubborn ego he has after all, and of his ability to love. Still I do not think it was enough to make him feel secure. I think he was shown dislike by others often enough for it to make an impression on him. (Dryleaves)
I can agree with that!
Hm... is it possible that Snape was (subconsciously) expecting her (as his single most important friend and as a girl) to love him in a secure, unconditional way, which is something that children usually get from their mothers and their mothers only (not from their peers) and of course Lily could not give that to him? (Julia)
If he didn't get unconditional love from his mother I don't think he'd be expecting it from Lily or anyone else. He wouldn't even know what it is. It's those who get too much unconditional love from their parents (the spoilt brats, in other words) who expect it from others as well.
In fact I think it was almost the opposite. He felt that Lily would not like him unconditionally (and of course he was right), that she was such an exceptional girl that he had to prove himself to be worthy of her. And unfortunately he is so busy trying to do so, that he cannot hear her when she tells him what she really wants from him.
Julia H. - Aug 29, 2008 9:04 am (#358 of 2988)
Edited Aug 29, 2008 10:05 am
It's those who get too much unconditional love from their parents (the spoilt brats, in other words) who expect it from others as well. (Mona)
I don't know. I did not think of the spoilt brats. I think a mother's love is typically unconditional. We don't necessarily tell that to our children, but we will continue loving them whatever they do or not do. (Like Mrs Weasley, who never stops loving Percy.) In order to be emotionally secure, a child should feel there is someone, an adult, whose love does not depend on his/her school marks, achievement, general popularity and success or on the adult's mood or any other things. Typically, it is the mother who loves her children in this way (individual situations vary, of course). A father (again only typically, traditionally, archetypically etc.) loves the child but has clear expectations, demands, which is a type of love the child also has to experience, and the father's good or bad opinion may become very important as the child gets older. Perhaps it is more so in father - son relationships; a father - daughter relationship may be important in a different way. I think Snape misses a normal relationship with his father very much and that may be one of the reasons behind his terrible mistakes as he is trying to find appreciation in the wrong places. (That may be the reason why Lucius patting him on the back is dangerous to him and perhaps it is a factor in his eventual tragic decision to join and serve a powerful wizard like LV.)
But you may be right that without experiencing unconditional love in his early childhood, he may not be able to expect it from anyone - I certainly agree that he is not likely to believe that he could really get it from anyone even if he should long for being loved in this way (or at all).
In fact I think it was almost the opposite. He felt that Lily would not like him unconditionally (and of course he was right), that she was such an exceptional girl that he had to prove himself to be worthy of her. And unfortunately he is so busy trying to do so, that he cannot hear her when she tells him what she really wants from him. (Mona)
That sounds quite convincing, actually.
mona amon - Sep 4, 2008 6:29 pm (#359 of 2988)
I don't know. I did not think of the spoilt brats. I think a mother's love is typically unconditional.
Julia, you are right. After posting it suddenly occurred to me, 'Hey, it's not unconditional love that turns a child into a spoiled brat, it's other things', but when I came to post a correction, I couldn't get on the Forum!
But the question still remains, did he get unconditional love from his mother or not? I don't think that question is answered in the book.
Julia H. - Sep 4, 2008 11:18 pm (#360 of 2988)
No, it is not answered. All we see is that his mother does not seem to make him feel to be really loved but we don't know why. We don't know whether it is because she does not really love him or because she has psychological problems of her own. We know she is afraid of a muggle husband, who apparently does not like their child, and she does not seem to try to do anything to change the situation. But it is already bad enough for a child if he does not feel he is loved (at least not in the way he needs it). Yet, Snape's mother definitely seems to be significantly closer to him than his father. I think the bigger problem of the two is the father for Snape and the mother is not able to help.
PeskyPixie - Sep 5, 2008 10:54 am (#361 of 2988)
Yay! I'm finally all caught up on this thread. I've missed some great discussions, though.
Here's hoping for more!
BTW, mona, "I've come across this phrase 'you'd better be...' or 'you'd better get...' or 'you'd better win...' quite often in my reading, used in a similar manner to the way Snape uses it. It's a playful way of saying 'I wish with all my heart that this will happen, so it had better happen.'I don't see how it can possibly be misinterpreted by James as a threat to Lily."
That's how I see it as well. James isn't particularly chivalrous towards Lily during their first encounter anyway. He mimics her when she leaves the compartment with Severus, doesn't he?
I also feel that JKR has a lot of backstory for all of her characters and had to be very strict on herself about those which would be allowed into the body of the stories. Thus, I feel that each of Snape's flashbacks is significant to his character and his role in the books. I find it poor logic to say, "Ah, it's just there, there's nothing more to it."
JKR presents us with an extremely hostile relationship between Snape and the Marauders and takes the time and space away from the main plot (i.e. Harry vs. Big V) to show us snapshots from different stages of it, including the very first interaction between these characters. These moments can easily be arranged in chronological order by the reader, and a story emerges, one in which there is no complete 'good' or 'bad' on either side, but youthful mistakes with harsh consequences. These moments are meant to be viewed as a single backstory; I'd go as far as to say that perhaps JKR means for the reader to 'connect-the-dots' (with logic, as we're given much information regarding this relationship by characters in the 'present-day' story in the books as well). Of course, different pictures emerge for each reader, and part of the fun of this thread is examining these different interpretations. However, my main point is that each scene from Snape's past, as well as each reference to it, is there for a reason; together they tell a story. I don't think JKR took the time to include so much detail in order for it to be dismissed on grounds of 'not enough evidence'.
PeskyPixie - Sep 5, 2008 8:56 pm (#362 of 2988)
Goodness, have I killed the discussion with one post?
poohnpiglettt - Sep 7, 2008 5:25 am (#363 of 2988)
"However, my main point is that each scene from Snape's past, as well as each reference to it, is there for a reason; together they tell a story." PeskyPixie
I very much agree with this point. I have never posted on this thread but I love reading the discussions back and forth. They have constantly made me run back to my books to check out information thinking things like "she said that after that happened?" or "I thought he said that first." Rereading the scenes from Snape's past I tried to think of what Snape was trying to tell Harry (and JKR the readers) with each memory. Looking at the memories as a whole, the main reason (IMO) seems to be to explain to Harry (and the reader) why Snape acted as he did (love for Lily which started in childhood), that he was truly DD's man, as well as to explain what Harry had to do. The scene on the train seems to me to really not do any of those except that he wants Lily to be in Slytherin. It seems to me that maybe this was an explanation to Harry for the duplicity in Snape's treatment of him. All the scenes with and about Lily show why Snape was really trying to save Harry--out of love for Lily. That scene seems to say the opposite in regards to James--Snape was nasty and unpleasant to Harry because of hatred of James, which we already know. But this further emphasizes that Snapes negative treatment of Harry with him, that it started long before that, in childhood--not exactly an apology but a "look, Harry, it had nothing to do with you--it started way back then."
Julia H. - Sep 7, 2008 3:01 pm (#364 of 2988)
I also agree with Pesky's post.
But this further emphasizes that Snapes negative treatment of Harry with him, that it started long before that, in childhood--not exactly an apology but a "look, Harry, it had nothing to do with you--it started way back then." poohnpiglettt
Interesting interpretation... Perhaps in this context we may even think that the train scene is there because it is easy for Harry to understand since he also experienced something very similar (and Snape may even know about it from Draco). Actually, inherited house rivalry may be something that many Hogwarts students experience early on.
mona amon - Sep 7, 2008 6:21 pm (#365 of 2988)
The scene on the train seems to me to really not do any of those except that he wants Lily to be in Slytherin. It seems to me that maybe this was an explanation to Harry for the duplicity in Snape's treatment of him. All the scenes with and about Lily show why Snape was really trying to save Harry--out of love for Lily. That scene seems to say the opposite in regards to James--Snape was nasty and unpleasant to Harry because of hatred of James, which we already know. (Poohnpiglet)
I feel we have to distinguish here between the author's reasons for giving the readers certain bits of information, and Snape's reasons for giving Harry the memories that he did. Snape seems to have selected those memories that show Harry
That he had a bit of Voldemort's soul in him (the silver doe memory)
That he was Dumbledore's man (so that he would trust him about the soulbit information)
That he always loved Lily, and what went wrong with that relationship (it was part of the explanation of why he was Dumbledore's man)
So he gives Harry the memories that support these points, but these are pensieve memories. Snape cannot be too selective. There may be information there that he did not particularly want to show Harry, but had to because it was part of the memory. The author on the other hand uses the memories to give us readers some backstory on other characters besides Snape- Lily, James and the other Marauders, Petunia, Mr. and Mrs. Evans, Snape's parents, Dumbledore.
We are never really given a glimpse into the mind of Snape. Even here, in the memories that he gives Harry, when he is confessing everything, it's difficult to guess his motivations exactly. But somehow I do not feel he was trying to explain or justify his negative conduct towards Harry. Did he even realise that it was due to his own hang-ups and nothing to do with Harry?
Orion - Sep 8, 2008 2:50 am (#366 of 2988)
The Prince's Tale sums up the backstory for the reader. It must have been very difficult for the author to compile scenes which tell the readers everything they need to know, but only those which can be justified as being important for Harry to see at this specific moment.
Some of these scenes seem like "readers only" and make you think "Snape, you have so little time, why do you bother to get Harry this?" or think "Snape, are you sure you want Harry to see this?" But for the sake of a convincing build-up in the line of events which turned Snape into a DE and then later a spy these scenes have to be there. And we have to accept that Snape wants to make his life story a rounded and logical affair so that Harry first "gets it" without any doubts or incongruencies and then "believes it" so that he walks to his death as a *spew* "saviour". *spew* (If somebody tells you you have to die for the cause, be wary, very wary.)
Julia H. - Sep 8, 2008 4:25 am (#367 of 2988)
We are never really given a glimpse into the mind of Snape. Even here, in the memories that he gives Harry, when he is confessing everything, it's difficult to guess his motivations exactly. But somehow I do not feel he was trying to explain or justify his negative conduct towards Harry. Did he even realise that it was due to his own hang-ups and nothing to do with Harry? (Mona)
As you say, we cannot really know. But I think even if we do not know what exactly is going on in his mind, we can probably suppose that there are things going on in his mind (he is a human being with an active mind, after all) so it is OK to make guesses as far as we accept that they are guesses. Otherwise there is not much to talk about. I mean it is interesting to discuss Snape's guilt and obvious faults again and again but perhaps we are "advanced" enough to sometimes move on to more speculative areas of discussion "leaving behind the firm foundation of fact and journeying together through the murky marshes of memory into the thickets of wildest guesswork". We just have to know where we are.
Some of these scenes seem like "readers only" and make you think "Snape, you have so little time, why do you bother to get Harry this?" or think "Snape, are you sure you want Harry to see this?" (Orion)
Yes, it is difficult to believe that it is Snape who definitely wants Harry to see his Worst Memory again even if we accept that minutes before one's death priorities might get re-ordered.
We might just suppose that some memories get into the foreground of his mind by free association (stream of consciousness) and then come out of his head with the other memories.
wynnleaf - Sep 12, 2008 7:18 am (#368 of 2988)
Edited Sep 12, 2008 8:19 am
Hi everyone! The Forum is back, and I'm back to the Forum, after moving halfway across the country and finally getting internet started up again. I've missed you all. I've got to read some posts now....
mona amon - Sep 12, 2008 10:15 am (#369 of 2988)
Yay! The Forum is back, the FFF is back, the Lexicon is back and Wynnleaf's back!
Some of these scenes seem like "readers only" and make you think "Snape, you have so little time, why do you bother to get Harry this?" or think "Snape, are you sure you want Harry to see this?" But for the sake of a convincing build-up in the line of events which turned Snape into a DE and then later a spy these scenes have to be there. And we have to accept that Snape wants to make his life story a rounded and logical affair so that Harry first "gets it" without any doubts or incongruencies and then "believes it" so that he walks to his death as a *spew* "saviour". *spew* (If somebody tells you you have to die for the cause, be wary, very wary.) (Orion)
I agree. But I think there are some parts of the memories that he would definitely have omitted if it was a written confession that he was giving Harry. Petunia, for instance. I do not think he would have considered her important to his story. But because these are Pensive memories, he has to show Harry every little thing that's connected with the main memory. In other words, I agree that every memory Snape selected for Harry had a reason behind it, but we need not think that every single detail of each memory was there for a reason. (Other than the author's reasons)
Hope that makes sense. It's rather late out here.
Julia H. - Sep 12, 2008 11:00 am (#370 of 2988)
Edited Sep 12, 2008 12:01 pm
Welcome back, Wynnleaf! We missed you, too! (We often missed the whole Forum as well.)
But I think there are some parts of the memories that he would definitely have omitted if it was a written confession that he was giving Harry. (Mona)
Of course, it is so. But it is a different situation where a whole memory is there for the author's reason only - even if we can explain how it got there when we want to.
legolas returns - Sep 12, 2008 1:24 pm (#371 of 2988)
Edited Sep 12, 2008 2:26 pm
In previous books it seemed that people had to individually remove memories. Dumbledore/Snape extracted single memories in front of Harry.
All SNape was asked to do by Dumbledore was to tell Harry that he carried a piece of Voldemorts soul.
I have always wondered whether Snapes life and in particular everything relating to Lily is flashing in front of him as his life ebbs away hence the flood of memories rather than the individual memory strands. I dont think that he could control the memories he showed.
Soul Search - Sep 12, 2008 2:32 pm (#372 of 2988)
Edited Sep 12, 2008 3:36 pm
I have wondered about "The Prince's Tale" from a literary standpoint. The chapter title does suggest that it is all about Snape, yet it contains more memories that would be strictly needed to convince Harry he carries a Voldemort soul-bit. How much of the chapter was planned from the beginning and how much was added or given extra detail because of fan "interest?"
JKR has said the Snape character started out being rather minor but "got away" from her. And, she doesn't particularly like the Snape character since she used a real model she didn't like. Yet, a strong interest in Snape developed as each book was released. The publisher even used this interest in a "Good Snape/Bad Snape" promotional campaign for Deathly Hallows. There had to be something about him in the final book!
Authors have had to succumb to fan pressure before. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle resurrected Sherlock Holmes and, I understand, J. R. R. Tolkien went through revisions of Lord of the Rings as well. Yet, JKR has had extreme fan pressure as she was writing successive books. The internet and interest like the Lexicon and various forums, like this one, had to exert some pressure. We know she used the Lexicon to look up little details and that she even posted on some forums. If we go by the number of "Snape" posts on this forum, the Snape character was the most popular by far. Had to be tough. And for a character she didn't much like.
Julia H. - Sep 12, 2008 3:19 pm (#373 of 2988)
In previous books it seemed that people had to individually remove memories. (legolas returns)
And they used their wands to do it. This may be a different level of magic.
All SNape was asked to do by Dumbledore was to tell Harry that he carried a piece of Voldemorts soul.
I think DD knew what he was doing and he knew how difficult it would be for Snape to give Harry the message. He knew Snape would be isolated from everyone on the good side and Harry would not believe him unless Snape could get his trust first, which would require Snape to open up to Harry.
I find it interesting that DD, who never opened up to anyone, was practically (and I think knowingly) forcing Snape to open up to Harry, something Snape had never wanted to do, something Snape could only be forced to do as a means of doing his duty and a means of fulfilling his promise.
I dont think that he could control the memories he showed.
He must have had some control at least because he had to deliver a specific message. But then one memory may have helped to recall another one and even in this case, he must have at least known and accepted that Harry was getting all of those memories even including some that he did not specifically want Harry to see.
Interesting post, Soul Search, though it is a bit disappointing to think the Snape character may have been practically a result of fan pressure only. In DH, JKR does not really seem to relate Snape to his former teacher any more, I mean at least the "bad teacher" aspect of Snape is not present any more and other, quite different aspects are introduced.
wynnleaf - Sep 12, 2008 5:10 pm (#374 of 2988)
The memories aren't random, not even a random grouping of memories of Lily. They all lead in a progression to explain Snape's actions, motivations, etc. -- well, maybe not clearly explain, but at least address the issues. So I think Snape must have chosen them specifically. I thought he'd perhaps chosen them previously, knowing that eventually he'd have to convince Harry to trust him. Perhaps he'd planned on pensieve memories. He could have known from DD's portrait that DD had explained to Harry how to tell real memories from alterations, so he could expect Harry to look at pensieve memories and realize they were the real thing.
Was some of the The Prince's Tale in order to bend to fan interest? I don't think so. Instead, I think that JKR, like many writers, found that the character got away from her and became bigger than she expected. I don't think it was the fans demands, but the demands of the character that pushed her to explain so much in that chapter. I can't believe that Snape was always such a "minor" character, regards what she says. She must always have had the plot points where Snape knew and cared for Lily, took the prophecy to LV, spied for DD, secretly protected Harry, killed Dumbledore, and has his true colors revealed at the end. Even in that brief summary it's clear he had to be quite important throughout the story.
Dryleaves - Sep 13, 2008 1:22 am (#375 of 2988)
How much of the chapter was planned from the beginning and how much was added or given extra detail because of fan "interest?"
JKR has said the Snape character started out being rather minor but "got away" from her. And, she doesn't particularly like the Snape character since she used a real model she didn't like. (Soul Search)
JKR may not have liked the model from real life, but I do think she likes Snape as a character, at least. I think I read somewhere that she thought Snape was fun to write, because he was deeply horrible or something like that. I think (but of course this is pure speculation) that the character "got away" from her pretty soon and got a life of its own. Snape is important to the plot, though, and this, I believe, was all clear from the beginning. I think we were always meant to have the true loyalties and motivations of Snape revealed in the last book.
I think the details of "The Prince's Tale" chapter are needed within the HP series to explain the Snape character as it has turned out during the course of the books, therefore I agree with Wynnleaf that it probably was the character itself that pushed her to make the explanations. Had a lot of it been omitted, I think the books would have been left with a huge loose thread, as Snape had already become an important character in the previous books.
Of course writers are susceptible to fan pressure, both consciously and unconsciously, but I do not think this is the main reason for giving the details of the chapter in question.
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Julia H. - Sep 13, 2008 2:44 pm (#376 of 2988)
Edited Sep 13, 2008 3:52 pm
It is true that Snape's backstory is built up over seven books even though the first-time reader may not notice that a backstory is unfolding there. The references to Harry's Lily-eyes start almost at the beginning of the first book. Snape's eyes are also described when he appears in the book. The idea that Snape may be able to read minds comes up in the first book, too, and so does a reference to the Prank, explained only in PoA. Perhaps it is not quite an accident either that it is Snape who first mentions the question of "where your loyalties lie" in PS - this moment seems to emphasize precisely the question that will be the essential one regarding Snape.
Soul Search - Sep 13, 2008 5:44 pm (#377 of 2988)
Good pickup, Julia H. "Where your loyalties lie" is a question Snape has already answered, perhaps at some cost to him.
mona amon - Sep 13, 2008 8:08 pm (#378 of 2988)
Edited Sep 13, 2008 9:10 pm
I do not think JKR disliked Snape at all. There's nothing in the books or interviews that I can interpret as JKR disliking Snape. Of course she doesn't always approve of the things he does, but that's a completely different matter.
I also do not see any evidence that this particular character 'got away from her'. All characters 'get away' from the author in the sense that they start off as an idea (often based on a real person) and then start taking on a life of their own, but the phrase is generally applied to those characters who turn out quite different from what the author intended, and I do not think Snape falls into this category.
As Julia says, Snape's backstory was built up carefully over seven books, and to quite a few of us, there was nothing very new or startling in the Prince's Tale.
legolas returns - Sep 14, 2008 3:54 am (#379 of 2988)
I think Snape gave all those memories to Harry not to gain his trust but to prove to Harry that he was not a coward and explain his actions and regrets. It was Dumbledore who supplied the information about Harry having to die. Harry accepted this information resignedly. I dont think Snape/Harry would have been capable of having a conversation so the memories were the only way.
Julia H. - Sep 14, 2008 4:31 am (#380 of 2988)
I think Snape gave all those memories to Harry not to gain his trust but to prove to Harry that he was not a coward and explain his actions and regrets. (legolas returns)
It is an intriguing idea that Snape actually wanted to explain his actions and regrets to Harry before he died (really wanted and not only as the only way to do his duty) - the very thing he had always wanted to avoid. He accepted that he was to be regarded as a murderer and a traitor by everyone when he was neither, long before he was ready to tell Harry the truth about himself. It would also mean that Harry's opinion alone was much more important to Snape than he would ever have admitted: he believed that his confession was for Harry alone since Harry was supposed to walk to his death and so to take the secret of Snape's true allegiance and bravery into the grave.
Soul Search - Sep 14, 2008 6:33 am (#381 of 2988)
Snape's last whispered words, "Look ... at ... me ..." suggests Harry was a surrogate for Lily. Snape was asking Lily for forgiveness.
Orion - Sep 15, 2008 11:55 am (#382 of 2988)
You mean, in the last seconds of his life his mind was disturbed and Harry and Lily blurred into one?
Soul Search - Sep 15, 2008 12:39 pm (#383 of 2988)
I don't think Snape mistook Harry for Lily, exactly, but used Harry as the closest person around who could serve as a surrogate. Lily had ruled most of Snape's life, and he needed a final glimpse. He was dying and he needed some kind of closure with Lily. Maybe he also needed the chance to apologize or ask her for forgiveness. The memories he gave Harry could have also served to explain his regret to Lily.
wynnleaf - Sep 15, 2008 3:23 pm (#384 of 2988)
I think there are many aspects to the "look at me" line. In part, I think Snape wanted to look into eyes that looked like Lily's. But for 6 years he looked into Harry's eyes numerous times and doesn't seem moved to any positive thoughts or feelings, so I just don't think Harry's eyes spoke to Snape of Lily very much. I tend to see the "look at me" request as meaning "see me for who I really am", and that fits with the extent of the memories Snape gave Harry.
Soul Search - Sep 15, 2008 5:39 pm (#385 of 2988)
"I tend to see the "look at me" request as meaning "see me for who I really am", and that fits with the extent of the memories Snape gave Harry." (wynnleaf)
I like the idea that Snape wanted Harry to understand him, but I don't think Snape ever, even when dying, cared what Harry thought of him. When Dumbledore suggested Snape might, finally, care about Harry Snape produced the doe patronus to demonstrate that it was only Lily he cared about. Harry was only a surrogate for Lily.
Julia H. - Sep 15, 2008 11:03 pm (#386 of 2988)
Edited Sep 16, 2008 12:27 am
I think the reason why Harry's eyes did not speak of Lily to Snape for all those years was probably that Snape did not allow himself to see Lily in Harry. However hard it was for him to put up with a "mini-James" in his everyday life, it was probably still easier than seeing him as Lily's son all the time. It was a sort of self-deceit I think since he must have known all the time that Harry was Lily's son and he must have been reminded of Lily whenever he looked into Harry's eyes but Snape was a superb Occlumens and had the gift of disciplining his mind so he did not let his thoughts or feelings wander in directions that he probably feared would have been too difficult to bear. (For all we know this may have been so in Harry's presence but we do not actually know whether he was or was not more sincere to himself when he was alone and not watched by Potter's son or anyone else.) Seconds before his death, however, his perspective must have changed and he did not have to be afraid any more that he could not bear to find Lily in Harry or in Harry's eyes and he finally reached out for the comfort that he had perhaps always wanted to have even without admitting it to himself.
When Dumbledore suggested Snape might, finally, care about Harry Snape produced the doe patronus to demonstrate that it was only Lily he cared about. (Soul Search)
He denied caring for Harry but I think the fact that he was angry with DD and with the whole situation had already betrayed that he cared. There are many ways of caring for someone. Snape had also said he would not watch anyone die if he could save them and we know he really saved everyone he could save. This may be a reason in itself why he was angry that Harry had to die (independent of Harry being Lily's son or anyone else's). On the other hand, he had put so much effort into protecting Harry (this had been the central purpose of his life for some time) that the very effort he was making, the risks he was taking, all the trouble he was enduring must have made their purpose and object valuable to him. This is human psychology. When you have worked and risked for someone and had already saved their life, it won't be easy to calmly accept that now you must just let that person die anyway. Harry had become a central part of Snape's life, maybe his reason to live - Snape may have said he did not care when he had to understand the terrible, cold, almost mathematical logic of the reason why Harry "had to" die, to me it seems to be denial and self-deceit in defense of his own feelings again.
I don't think Snape ever, even when dying, cared what Harry thought of him.
Snape never wanted Harry to know his painful, "unforgivable" secret. Snape became angry when Harry saw his injured leg. Snape was irritated when the stuffed vulture hat came out of the cracker and Harry smirked. Snape insisted on Harry calling him "sir". Snape was mad with rage when Harry had seen his worst memory. Snape looked demented, almost inhuman, when Harry had called him a coward. In his dying moments, Snape gave Harry the memories that explained his actions and his regrets probably in more detail than was, strictly speaking, needed just to deliver Harry DD's message.
I think Snape was terribly sensitive to what Harry thought of him. It was not in the sense of wanting to get love from Harry but a certain type of respect. Or even if he did not want to get respect from Harry in the usual sense of the word, I think he was tormented by the idea of Harry regarding him with contempt, ridicule or perhaps pity or with any other humiliating feelings. I think this was so for all those years they shared a home and fought on the same side but then again, as Snape was dying, he probably had to face a deeper truth about his life and his real feelings and I think he was able to take this chance and turn toward Harry (and also to Lily) because he knew it was the last of all chances in this life for him and he did not want to miss it. Pride and secret and all the seemingly important little things finally put aside, he was concentrating on the truth and the truth alone.
Orion - Sep 16, 2008 2:46 am (#387 of 2988)
That sums it up nicely, Julia.
mona amon - Sep 16, 2008 10:07 am (#388 of 2988)
I think the reason why Harry's eyes did not speak of Lily to Snape for all those years was probably that Snape did not allow himself to see Lily in Harry. However hard it was for him to put up with a "mini-James" in his everyday life, it was probably still easier than seeing him as Lily's son all the time. (Julia)
Julia, I see it almost the same way, with some slight differences. I think Harry's eyes did speak of Lily to him very much, and that was probably one of the reasons why he was so agitated during the Occlumency lessons when he had to keep gazing into Harry's eyes. Harry's eyes would remind him of Lily, and the rest of Harry would remind him of James, an unbearable combination for Severus. If his love for Lily had triumphed over his hatred of James, he may have found some comfort in the fact that Harry was Lily's child. But he could never forgive James, so Harry's presence would only have reminded him (as Jo puts it) that Lily preferred his enemy James to him.
In the brief period before his death, when he knows he's trapped and about to be killed, he can think only of Harry (the constantly reiterated "Let me go to the boy") Then, only when his duty is done, his thoughts turn to Lily, and he asks Harry to look at him with the eyes that he loves. Harry is there and everything he represents, but at this point he does not care. He is dying, and snatches whatever comfort he can. (**sniff**)
legolas returns - Sep 16, 2008 12:51 pm (#389 of 2988)
Edited Sep 16, 2008 1:54 pm
I find the whole soul bit passage interesting
Dumbledore assumes that Snape/Harry would be able to have contact and pass information. An "old mans mistake" that there could be that level of forgiveness/understanding without a crisis (e.g Snape dying in front of Harrys eyes). Snape is a murderer in Harrys eyes at that point-possibly this is another Albus "omnipotent" Dumbledore moment.
Snapes shock/abhorance at Dumbledores apparent disregard for peoples lives in particular his and Harrys is illuminating. Snape calls Harry "the boy"/"Lily Potter's son"/"him" but never does he name him "Harry" or "Potter" (the normal way he addressed Harry). Snapes motivation for his actions is to keep a male child that was the offspring of Lily alive (in his mind James is excluded) to try and make ammends. The fact that it is Harry is utterly unimpotant because he always goes on about how similar Harry is to James. We all know that he hated James. I am agreeing with Julia that hearing that the person you were protecting has to die would be impossible to accept. I know how bad I feel when I have worked hard on a project and it hasnt been used. With Snape it was his life and he was constantly taking risks/lying and putting his life on the line. I think Snape would have taken pride in doing things well and when you are told that it was for no purpose continuing to protect "the boy" after hearing this would be very difficult and shows such a degree of commitment to the cause *All hail Snape for choosing what was right rather than easy*.
The Patronus-He shouts "For him?" and not "For Harry/Potter?". This is again "Lily's son" and not a sign of affection.
wynnleaf - Sep 18, 2008 6:37 am (#390 of 2988)
Very good point, legolas returns, about how Snape speaks of Harry. It's very impersonal. He does say "Potter" to his face, but when talking about him to Dumbledore, he doesn't even do that.
A few days back a friend was talking to me about a particular person who had done them several great wrongs, and how much my friend despised this person. We were at a mall and my friend commented to me about seeing some random stranger who happened to look very much like the person that had done so much wrong toward my friend. My friend commented that, even realizing that this was a complete stranger, it was impossible to avoid immediate feelings of suspicion and dislike upon seeing someone who looked so like the despised other person.
Naturally, since I always have HP somewhere in the back of my mind, I immediately thought of Snape reacting to Harry so negatively solely because he is so reminded of James. Of course, it's a reaction that, no matter how natural, a mature adult could and should work to get rid of, knowing that the boy in question is not really the person he hated. Still, I am always fascinated at how JKR uses very human reactions and very real personality types in ways that add to the believability of her characters.
Soul Search - Sep 18, 2008 7:06 am (#391 of 2988)
Edited Sep 18, 2008 8:10 am
"Still, I am always fascinated at how JKR uses very human reactions and very real personality types in ways that add to the believability of her characters." (wynnleaf)
Yes. I very much agree.
Her portrayal of Snape generated two very diverse camps: Good Snape and Bad Snape. Some even liked the character. Difficult to do but that was exactly what she wanted so Snape could be left uncertain until the very end of the story.
She also did a little of that with James. Young James was a bully, but older James, after marrying Lily, became an upstanding wizard. I think this was done to create the uncertainty about his father, and Sirius too, in Harry.
With other characters, say Umbridge, there was no question as to their character. Umbridge was universally detested. I still don't like reading a lot of OotP because of her.
legolas returns - Sep 18, 2008 1:11 pm (#392 of 2988)
I have learnt to appreciate Snape since Deathly Hallows. Hee hee !
Julia H. - Sep 18, 2008 1:17 pm (#393 of 2988)
Still, I am always fascinated at how JKR uses very human reactions and very real personality types in ways that add to the believability of her characters. (Wynnleaf)
I, too, agree. I think the Snape character is very well constructed from a psychological point of view. It is amazing because the character is extreme (and so perhaps improbable) in many ways: unrequited but undying, passionate love even when the loved person has been dead for many years; a crime of more than average magnitude followed by a total change of conduct and goals; extreme loyalty to a duty with no recognition or "reward" (in a moral sense) at all; an almost unbelievably great sacrifice that requires much more strength than what the average mortal can usually be expected to possess, and so on. Yet, the background and the motivations for the character provide psychologically believable and logical explanations for everything that is important about the character. I think there are lots of small things in Snape's background that can be related to common, everyday experiences, like the example Wynnleaf mentioned: We can see these things in the real world, only the scale is different.
It is probably important in this regard that there is a scale on which the character never reaches an extreme point: Snape is never fully bad and never fully good. For example, his return to the good side does not make him suddenly all wise and forgiving and "good": It simply does not work that way. He remains bitter and unpleasant and full of anger and it is absolutely understandable why. Yet he could not be more firmly on the good side.
Many other characters are shown to have good sides and bad sides though perhaps the mixture is never as intriguing as in the case of Snape. JKR usually makes it very clear that bad and good characteristics come from the same basis, for example, Snape has very strong and long-lasting feelings both when he loves and when he hates.
The two faces of James: the bully vs. the good friend / father / hero may partly be there to help make the Snape-character more complex by showing that Snape's hatred for James has a James-related origin, it is not just Snape's fault (it will be important for Harry to understand that finally), that both of them can be seen as victims as well as perpetrators. James's character is motivated, I think, by two considerations: Snape had to have a psychologically well-founded reason for his hatred but James also had to turn out to be good enough to be accepted by Lily and to be a worthy father for Harry (who would occasionally come back from the afterlife to help his son). Since we know very few details about James, it is difficult to reconcile his good and bad sides. (It is a bit difficult to believe without further explanation that Lily's love would simply have resulted in a major personality change in him from one day to the other though I can imagine that the same fighting energy James had put into bullying others may have been redirected toward a meaningful, positive goal when he actively joined the fight against Voldemort and that also influenced his whole personality. Of course, we are never really told that.)
Soul Search - Sep 18, 2008 5:25 pm (#394 of 2988)
There is more to it. We were presented a rather negative image of Snape through most of seven books. Regardless of whether a reader though Snape was on the "Good" or "Bad" side no one thought he was a "good" person. Then we get his back story. We learn that his whole life had been dedicated to protecting Harry. He was hard on Harry because Snape knew what Harry had to face. When Harry broke rules, Snape saw the serious mistake James made and was hard on Harry for it.
The lesson is don't judge a person until you know their story. That one is just as good as "choices" or "don't take the easy way."
legolas returns - Sep 19, 2008 12:00 pm (#395 of 2988)
Edited Sep 19, 2008 1:09 pm
I dont think that Snape was hard on Harry because he knew what he to face in the future. He was not exactly a "fluffy" person in life.
I think he enerally expects excellence from everybody and sets high standard.
He was not prepared to take students who had not obtained exceeds expectations in Potions forward to owls. Most teachers were happy with an outstanding including Slughorn. Harry got an outstanding in his owl and Snape still thought that he was rubbish.
He did not want to teach Harry occulemency but he did it on Dumbledores orders until Harry took a peak at his private memories. When Harry stung Snape with a hex and stopped him seeing memories he critisised him for letting him into memories so much. When he used a shield charm and saw into Snapes mind he only got that it was "an improvement". He did not meet Snapes high standards-Harry did not try at all further provoking SNapes ire.
Snape generally had a thing about following rules and spent so much time wanting to get Harry expelled for breaking rules. Admittedly you could argue that Dumbledore encouraged Harry to break rules by giving him the invisibility cloak and gave him the benifit of the doubt when he was caught. He knew that James et al were always out breaking rules. It made him mad and resentful that they got away with things. When Harry broke rules it forceably reminded him of James. He describes Harry as "He is his father over again". Even when no critisim is called for he passes comment about Harry in front of other class members.
What I am trying to say is that Snape saw too much James in Harry and not any of Lily. Thats probably why he was much harder on Harry than the rest of Harrys class mates.
Snape did protect Harry to the best of his ability and he did a good job. It just wasnt clear that he was on the good side. The mark of a perfect double/triple agent.
Orion - Sep 19, 2008 12:07 pm (#396 of 2988)
Why does Snape want to get Harry expelled at all? How is he going to protect him then? Surely he is not soft in the head, so I think he doesn't mean what he says.
legolas returns - Sep 19, 2008 12:10 pm (#397 of 2988)
Edited Sep 19, 2008 1:13 pm
I think he just wanted the same set of standard applied to all students. At the times he wants to get Harry expelled there is not a direct threat from Voldemort. When Voldemort is not there or someone is not attacking Harry then I guess his protection is not activated.
Julia H. - Sep 19, 2008 12:45 pm (#398 of 2988)
Edited Sep 19, 2008 2:00 pm
I don't think Snape ever really means to have Harry expelled. First of all, he must know DD would never want to expel Harry because the primary goal of their alliance is protecting him and they both take this task seriously. Secondly, when has anyone ever been expelled from Hogwarts by DD? (Not even Sirius was expelled after the Prank and Snape knows this very well.) Sure, Snape threatens Harry with expulsion but he also threatens him with Veritaserum and none of these threats is ever realized. Harry seems to be in the greatest danger of expulsion at the beginning of CoS but how would DD expel the boy who a few months earlier was the hero of the school and who needs DD's special protection?
DD has told Snape Voldemort will return and already in PS they know LV is trying so Snape knows that Harry needs protection or at least that he may need it any time.
I think Snape gets very angry when he overhears Harry and Ron discussing that he may have been sacked because everybody hates him and he wants to make them feel something similar to what he feels and that may be one reason why he threatens them with expulsion. On the other hand, I think the whole scene is for DD in the first place: Snape wants to show him that the "modest, likable, engaging child" is indeed "a determined rule-breaker".
Snape also reminds me a bit of a jealous older child who provokes a conflict with the younger one in such a way that he knows the parent will be bound to "take the younger one's side" so that he can "prove" to the parent that he prefers the younger child. I think the way DD tells Snape in the end to walk with him back to the dinner table is also similar to a parent's reaction to this kind of "provocation": After "defending" the younger one, he finds an opportunity to talk privately to the older one and to soothe his jealousy by keeping him by his side.
Still another aspect is that Slytherins and ultimately Voldy (when he comes back) will know how "hard" Snape has always tried to get Harry out of Hogwarts and away from DD. We know Snape mentions this to Bella (and possibly to LV) as "proof" of his loyalty to the Dark Side.
BTW, I wonder why Snape is not in the Great Hall when the two boys arrive. Is he perhaps just about to start looking for them, is he just going to do something to find out where they can be?
When he used a shield charm and saw into Snapes mind he only got that it was "an improvement". (legolas returns)
Considering how much Snape must have hated (and feared) the idea of Harry catching a glimpse of some of his bleak childhood memories, the "improvement" comment sounds fair enough and is a sign of self-discipline.
Dryleaves - Sep 19, 2008 11:02 pm (#399 of 2988)
Edited Sep 20, 2008 12:03 am
Snape also reminds me a bit of a jealous older child who provokes a conflict with the younger one in such a way that he knows the parent will be bound to "take the younger one's side" so that he can "prove" to the parent that he prefers the younger child. I think the way DD tells Snape in the end to walk with him back to the dinner table is also similar to a parent's reaction to this kind of "provocation": After "defending" the younger one, he finds an opportunity to talk privately to the older one and to soothe his jealousy by keeping him by his side. (Julia)
LOL! I think there is some truth in that description.
I got the impression that Snape was looking for Harry and Ron. Does he not say something like: "Or maybe he is wondering why you two didn't arrive by the train..." (I do not remember the exact quote, as you see.) I took it as if it had been noticed that Harry and Ron were missing on the train and that Snape had gone to investigate where they could be. But why he would look around Hogwarts then, I do not know... Maybe the damage on the Whomping Willow had been noticed or maybe he just happened to see them?
Julia H. - Sep 20, 2008 8:00 am (#400 of 2988)
I think there is some truth in that description. (Dryleaves)
I forgot to say that Dumbledore mentioning the "delicious-looking custard tart" also reinforced this picture for me. Dumbledore is almost saying something like: "Calm down and let's have a talk. There is no need to be so unhappy, you will get a piece of cake."
Edited Sep 13, 2008 3:52 pm
It is true that Snape's backstory is built up over seven books even though the first-time reader may not notice that a backstory is unfolding there. The references to Harry's Lily-eyes start almost at the beginning of the first book. Snape's eyes are also described when he appears in the book. The idea that Snape may be able to read minds comes up in the first book, too, and so does a reference to the Prank, explained only in PoA. Perhaps it is not quite an accident either that it is Snape who first mentions the question of "where your loyalties lie" in PS - this moment seems to emphasize precisely the question that will be the essential one regarding Snape.
Soul Search - Sep 13, 2008 5:44 pm (#377 of 2988)
Good pickup, Julia H. "Where your loyalties lie" is a question Snape has already answered, perhaps at some cost to him.
mona amon - Sep 13, 2008 8:08 pm (#378 of 2988)
Edited Sep 13, 2008 9:10 pm
I do not think JKR disliked Snape at all. There's nothing in the books or interviews that I can interpret as JKR disliking Snape. Of course she doesn't always approve of the things he does, but that's a completely different matter.
I also do not see any evidence that this particular character 'got away from her'. All characters 'get away' from the author in the sense that they start off as an idea (often based on a real person) and then start taking on a life of their own, but the phrase is generally applied to those characters who turn out quite different from what the author intended, and I do not think Snape falls into this category.
As Julia says, Snape's backstory was built up carefully over seven books, and to quite a few of us, there was nothing very new or startling in the Prince's Tale.
legolas returns - Sep 14, 2008 3:54 am (#379 of 2988)
I think Snape gave all those memories to Harry not to gain his trust but to prove to Harry that he was not a coward and explain his actions and regrets. It was Dumbledore who supplied the information about Harry having to die. Harry accepted this information resignedly. I dont think Snape/Harry would have been capable of having a conversation so the memories were the only way.
Julia H. - Sep 14, 2008 4:31 am (#380 of 2988)
I think Snape gave all those memories to Harry not to gain his trust but to prove to Harry that he was not a coward and explain his actions and regrets. (legolas returns)
It is an intriguing idea that Snape actually wanted to explain his actions and regrets to Harry before he died (really wanted and not only as the only way to do his duty) - the very thing he had always wanted to avoid. He accepted that he was to be regarded as a murderer and a traitor by everyone when he was neither, long before he was ready to tell Harry the truth about himself. It would also mean that Harry's opinion alone was much more important to Snape than he would ever have admitted: he believed that his confession was for Harry alone since Harry was supposed to walk to his death and so to take the secret of Snape's true allegiance and bravery into the grave.
Soul Search - Sep 14, 2008 6:33 am (#381 of 2988)
Snape's last whispered words, "Look ... at ... me ..." suggests Harry was a surrogate for Lily. Snape was asking Lily for forgiveness.
Orion - Sep 15, 2008 11:55 am (#382 of 2988)
You mean, in the last seconds of his life his mind was disturbed and Harry and Lily blurred into one?
Soul Search - Sep 15, 2008 12:39 pm (#383 of 2988)
I don't think Snape mistook Harry for Lily, exactly, but used Harry as the closest person around who could serve as a surrogate. Lily had ruled most of Snape's life, and he needed a final glimpse. He was dying and he needed some kind of closure with Lily. Maybe he also needed the chance to apologize or ask her for forgiveness. The memories he gave Harry could have also served to explain his regret to Lily.
wynnleaf - Sep 15, 2008 3:23 pm (#384 of 2988)
I think there are many aspects to the "look at me" line. In part, I think Snape wanted to look into eyes that looked like Lily's. But for 6 years he looked into Harry's eyes numerous times and doesn't seem moved to any positive thoughts or feelings, so I just don't think Harry's eyes spoke to Snape of Lily very much. I tend to see the "look at me" request as meaning "see me for who I really am", and that fits with the extent of the memories Snape gave Harry.
Soul Search - Sep 15, 2008 5:39 pm (#385 of 2988)
"I tend to see the "look at me" request as meaning "see me for who I really am", and that fits with the extent of the memories Snape gave Harry." (wynnleaf)
I like the idea that Snape wanted Harry to understand him, but I don't think Snape ever, even when dying, cared what Harry thought of him. When Dumbledore suggested Snape might, finally, care about Harry Snape produced the doe patronus to demonstrate that it was only Lily he cared about. Harry was only a surrogate for Lily.
Julia H. - Sep 15, 2008 11:03 pm (#386 of 2988)
Edited Sep 16, 2008 12:27 am
I think the reason why Harry's eyes did not speak of Lily to Snape for all those years was probably that Snape did not allow himself to see Lily in Harry. However hard it was for him to put up with a "mini-James" in his everyday life, it was probably still easier than seeing him as Lily's son all the time. It was a sort of self-deceit I think since he must have known all the time that Harry was Lily's son and he must have been reminded of Lily whenever he looked into Harry's eyes but Snape was a superb Occlumens and had the gift of disciplining his mind so he did not let his thoughts or feelings wander in directions that he probably feared would have been too difficult to bear. (For all we know this may have been so in Harry's presence but we do not actually know whether he was or was not more sincere to himself when he was alone and not watched by Potter's son or anyone else.) Seconds before his death, however, his perspective must have changed and he did not have to be afraid any more that he could not bear to find Lily in Harry or in Harry's eyes and he finally reached out for the comfort that he had perhaps always wanted to have even without admitting it to himself.
When Dumbledore suggested Snape might, finally, care about Harry Snape produced the doe patronus to demonstrate that it was only Lily he cared about. (Soul Search)
He denied caring for Harry but I think the fact that he was angry with DD and with the whole situation had already betrayed that he cared. There are many ways of caring for someone. Snape had also said he would not watch anyone die if he could save them and we know he really saved everyone he could save. This may be a reason in itself why he was angry that Harry had to die (independent of Harry being Lily's son or anyone else's). On the other hand, he had put so much effort into protecting Harry (this had been the central purpose of his life for some time) that the very effort he was making, the risks he was taking, all the trouble he was enduring must have made their purpose and object valuable to him. This is human psychology. When you have worked and risked for someone and had already saved their life, it won't be easy to calmly accept that now you must just let that person die anyway. Harry had become a central part of Snape's life, maybe his reason to live - Snape may have said he did not care when he had to understand the terrible, cold, almost mathematical logic of the reason why Harry "had to" die, to me it seems to be denial and self-deceit in defense of his own feelings again.
I don't think Snape ever, even when dying, cared what Harry thought of him.
Snape never wanted Harry to know his painful, "unforgivable" secret. Snape became angry when Harry saw his injured leg. Snape was irritated when the stuffed vulture hat came out of the cracker and Harry smirked. Snape insisted on Harry calling him "sir". Snape was mad with rage when Harry had seen his worst memory. Snape looked demented, almost inhuman, when Harry had called him a coward. In his dying moments, Snape gave Harry the memories that explained his actions and his regrets probably in more detail than was, strictly speaking, needed just to deliver Harry DD's message.
I think Snape was terribly sensitive to what Harry thought of him. It was not in the sense of wanting to get love from Harry but a certain type of respect. Or even if he did not want to get respect from Harry in the usual sense of the word, I think he was tormented by the idea of Harry regarding him with contempt, ridicule or perhaps pity or with any other humiliating feelings. I think this was so for all those years they shared a home and fought on the same side but then again, as Snape was dying, he probably had to face a deeper truth about his life and his real feelings and I think he was able to take this chance and turn toward Harry (and also to Lily) because he knew it was the last of all chances in this life for him and he did not want to miss it. Pride and secret and all the seemingly important little things finally put aside, he was concentrating on the truth and the truth alone.
Orion - Sep 16, 2008 2:46 am (#387 of 2988)
That sums it up nicely, Julia.
mona amon - Sep 16, 2008 10:07 am (#388 of 2988)
I think the reason why Harry's eyes did not speak of Lily to Snape for all those years was probably that Snape did not allow himself to see Lily in Harry. However hard it was for him to put up with a "mini-James" in his everyday life, it was probably still easier than seeing him as Lily's son all the time. (Julia)
Julia, I see it almost the same way, with some slight differences. I think Harry's eyes did speak of Lily to him very much, and that was probably one of the reasons why he was so agitated during the Occlumency lessons when he had to keep gazing into Harry's eyes. Harry's eyes would remind him of Lily, and the rest of Harry would remind him of James, an unbearable combination for Severus. If his love for Lily had triumphed over his hatred of James, he may have found some comfort in the fact that Harry was Lily's child. But he could never forgive James, so Harry's presence would only have reminded him (as Jo puts it) that Lily preferred his enemy James to him.
In the brief period before his death, when he knows he's trapped and about to be killed, he can think only of Harry (the constantly reiterated "Let me go to the boy") Then, only when his duty is done, his thoughts turn to Lily, and he asks Harry to look at him with the eyes that he loves. Harry is there and everything he represents, but at this point he does not care. He is dying, and snatches whatever comfort he can. (**sniff**)
legolas returns - Sep 16, 2008 12:51 pm (#389 of 2988)
Edited Sep 16, 2008 1:54 pm
I find the whole soul bit passage interesting
Dumbledore assumes that Snape/Harry would be able to have contact and pass information. An "old mans mistake" that there could be that level of forgiveness/understanding without a crisis (e.g Snape dying in front of Harrys eyes). Snape is a murderer in Harrys eyes at that point-possibly this is another Albus "omnipotent" Dumbledore moment.
Snapes shock/abhorance at Dumbledores apparent disregard for peoples lives in particular his and Harrys is illuminating. Snape calls Harry "the boy"/"Lily Potter's son"/"him" but never does he name him "Harry" or "Potter" (the normal way he addressed Harry). Snapes motivation for his actions is to keep a male child that was the offspring of Lily alive (in his mind James is excluded) to try and make ammends. The fact that it is Harry is utterly unimpotant because he always goes on about how similar Harry is to James. We all know that he hated James. I am agreeing with Julia that hearing that the person you were protecting has to die would be impossible to accept. I know how bad I feel when I have worked hard on a project and it hasnt been used. With Snape it was his life and he was constantly taking risks/lying and putting his life on the line. I think Snape would have taken pride in doing things well and when you are told that it was for no purpose continuing to protect "the boy" after hearing this would be very difficult and shows such a degree of commitment to the cause *All hail Snape for choosing what was right rather than easy*.
The Patronus-He shouts "For him?" and not "For Harry/Potter?". This is again "Lily's son" and not a sign of affection.
wynnleaf - Sep 18, 2008 6:37 am (#390 of 2988)
Very good point, legolas returns, about how Snape speaks of Harry. It's very impersonal. He does say "Potter" to his face, but when talking about him to Dumbledore, he doesn't even do that.
A few days back a friend was talking to me about a particular person who had done them several great wrongs, and how much my friend despised this person. We were at a mall and my friend commented to me about seeing some random stranger who happened to look very much like the person that had done so much wrong toward my friend. My friend commented that, even realizing that this was a complete stranger, it was impossible to avoid immediate feelings of suspicion and dislike upon seeing someone who looked so like the despised other person.
Naturally, since I always have HP somewhere in the back of my mind, I immediately thought of Snape reacting to Harry so negatively solely because he is so reminded of James. Of course, it's a reaction that, no matter how natural, a mature adult could and should work to get rid of, knowing that the boy in question is not really the person he hated. Still, I am always fascinated at how JKR uses very human reactions and very real personality types in ways that add to the believability of her characters.
Soul Search - Sep 18, 2008 7:06 am (#391 of 2988)
Edited Sep 18, 2008 8:10 am
"Still, I am always fascinated at how JKR uses very human reactions and very real personality types in ways that add to the believability of her characters." (wynnleaf)
Yes. I very much agree.
Her portrayal of Snape generated two very diverse camps: Good Snape and Bad Snape. Some even liked the character. Difficult to do but that was exactly what she wanted so Snape could be left uncertain until the very end of the story.
She also did a little of that with James. Young James was a bully, but older James, after marrying Lily, became an upstanding wizard. I think this was done to create the uncertainty about his father, and Sirius too, in Harry.
With other characters, say Umbridge, there was no question as to their character. Umbridge was universally detested. I still don't like reading a lot of OotP because of her.
legolas returns - Sep 18, 2008 1:11 pm (#392 of 2988)
I have learnt to appreciate Snape since Deathly Hallows. Hee hee !
Julia H. - Sep 18, 2008 1:17 pm (#393 of 2988)
Still, I am always fascinated at how JKR uses very human reactions and very real personality types in ways that add to the believability of her characters. (Wynnleaf)
I, too, agree. I think the Snape character is very well constructed from a psychological point of view. It is amazing because the character is extreme (and so perhaps improbable) in many ways: unrequited but undying, passionate love even when the loved person has been dead for many years; a crime of more than average magnitude followed by a total change of conduct and goals; extreme loyalty to a duty with no recognition or "reward" (in a moral sense) at all; an almost unbelievably great sacrifice that requires much more strength than what the average mortal can usually be expected to possess, and so on. Yet, the background and the motivations for the character provide psychologically believable and logical explanations for everything that is important about the character. I think there are lots of small things in Snape's background that can be related to common, everyday experiences, like the example Wynnleaf mentioned: We can see these things in the real world, only the scale is different.
It is probably important in this regard that there is a scale on which the character never reaches an extreme point: Snape is never fully bad and never fully good. For example, his return to the good side does not make him suddenly all wise and forgiving and "good": It simply does not work that way. He remains bitter and unpleasant and full of anger and it is absolutely understandable why. Yet he could not be more firmly on the good side.
Many other characters are shown to have good sides and bad sides though perhaps the mixture is never as intriguing as in the case of Snape. JKR usually makes it very clear that bad and good characteristics come from the same basis, for example, Snape has very strong and long-lasting feelings both when he loves and when he hates.
The two faces of James: the bully vs. the good friend / father / hero may partly be there to help make the Snape-character more complex by showing that Snape's hatred for James has a James-related origin, it is not just Snape's fault (it will be important for Harry to understand that finally), that both of them can be seen as victims as well as perpetrators. James's character is motivated, I think, by two considerations: Snape had to have a psychologically well-founded reason for his hatred but James also had to turn out to be good enough to be accepted by Lily and to be a worthy father for Harry (who would occasionally come back from the afterlife to help his son). Since we know very few details about James, it is difficult to reconcile his good and bad sides. (It is a bit difficult to believe without further explanation that Lily's love would simply have resulted in a major personality change in him from one day to the other though I can imagine that the same fighting energy James had put into bullying others may have been redirected toward a meaningful, positive goal when he actively joined the fight against Voldemort and that also influenced his whole personality. Of course, we are never really told that.)
Soul Search - Sep 18, 2008 5:25 pm (#394 of 2988)
There is more to it. We were presented a rather negative image of Snape through most of seven books. Regardless of whether a reader though Snape was on the "Good" or "Bad" side no one thought he was a "good" person. Then we get his back story. We learn that his whole life had been dedicated to protecting Harry. He was hard on Harry because Snape knew what Harry had to face. When Harry broke rules, Snape saw the serious mistake James made and was hard on Harry for it.
The lesson is don't judge a person until you know their story. That one is just as good as "choices" or "don't take the easy way."
legolas returns - Sep 19, 2008 12:00 pm (#395 of 2988)
Edited Sep 19, 2008 1:09 pm
I dont think that Snape was hard on Harry because he knew what he to face in the future. He was not exactly a "fluffy" person in life.
I think he enerally expects excellence from everybody and sets high standard.
He was not prepared to take students who had not obtained exceeds expectations in Potions forward to owls. Most teachers were happy with an outstanding including Slughorn. Harry got an outstanding in his owl and Snape still thought that he was rubbish.
He did not want to teach Harry occulemency but he did it on Dumbledores orders until Harry took a peak at his private memories. When Harry stung Snape with a hex and stopped him seeing memories he critisised him for letting him into memories so much. When he used a shield charm and saw into Snapes mind he only got that it was "an improvement". He did not meet Snapes high standards-Harry did not try at all further provoking SNapes ire.
Snape generally had a thing about following rules and spent so much time wanting to get Harry expelled for breaking rules. Admittedly you could argue that Dumbledore encouraged Harry to break rules by giving him the invisibility cloak and gave him the benifit of the doubt when he was caught. He knew that James et al were always out breaking rules. It made him mad and resentful that they got away with things. When Harry broke rules it forceably reminded him of James. He describes Harry as "He is his father over again". Even when no critisim is called for he passes comment about Harry in front of other class members.
What I am trying to say is that Snape saw too much James in Harry and not any of Lily. Thats probably why he was much harder on Harry than the rest of Harrys class mates.
Snape did protect Harry to the best of his ability and he did a good job. It just wasnt clear that he was on the good side. The mark of a perfect double/triple agent.
Orion - Sep 19, 2008 12:07 pm (#396 of 2988)
Why does Snape want to get Harry expelled at all? How is he going to protect him then? Surely he is not soft in the head, so I think he doesn't mean what he says.
legolas returns - Sep 19, 2008 12:10 pm (#397 of 2988)
Edited Sep 19, 2008 1:13 pm
I think he just wanted the same set of standard applied to all students. At the times he wants to get Harry expelled there is not a direct threat from Voldemort. When Voldemort is not there or someone is not attacking Harry then I guess his protection is not activated.
Julia H. - Sep 19, 2008 12:45 pm (#398 of 2988)
Edited Sep 19, 2008 2:00 pm
I don't think Snape ever really means to have Harry expelled. First of all, he must know DD would never want to expel Harry because the primary goal of their alliance is protecting him and they both take this task seriously. Secondly, when has anyone ever been expelled from Hogwarts by DD? (Not even Sirius was expelled after the Prank and Snape knows this very well.) Sure, Snape threatens Harry with expulsion but he also threatens him with Veritaserum and none of these threats is ever realized. Harry seems to be in the greatest danger of expulsion at the beginning of CoS but how would DD expel the boy who a few months earlier was the hero of the school and who needs DD's special protection?
DD has told Snape Voldemort will return and already in PS they know LV is trying so Snape knows that Harry needs protection or at least that he may need it any time.
I think Snape gets very angry when he overhears Harry and Ron discussing that he may have been sacked because everybody hates him and he wants to make them feel something similar to what he feels and that may be one reason why he threatens them with expulsion. On the other hand, I think the whole scene is for DD in the first place: Snape wants to show him that the "modest, likable, engaging child" is indeed "a determined rule-breaker".
Snape also reminds me a bit of a jealous older child who provokes a conflict with the younger one in such a way that he knows the parent will be bound to "take the younger one's side" so that he can "prove" to the parent that he prefers the younger child. I think the way DD tells Snape in the end to walk with him back to the dinner table is also similar to a parent's reaction to this kind of "provocation": After "defending" the younger one, he finds an opportunity to talk privately to the older one and to soothe his jealousy by keeping him by his side.
Still another aspect is that Slytherins and ultimately Voldy (when he comes back) will know how "hard" Snape has always tried to get Harry out of Hogwarts and away from DD. We know Snape mentions this to Bella (and possibly to LV) as "proof" of his loyalty to the Dark Side.
BTW, I wonder why Snape is not in the Great Hall when the two boys arrive. Is he perhaps just about to start looking for them, is he just going to do something to find out where they can be?
When he used a shield charm and saw into Snapes mind he only got that it was "an improvement". (legolas returns)
Considering how much Snape must have hated (and feared) the idea of Harry catching a glimpse of some of his bleak childhood memories, the "improvement" comment sounds fair enough and is a sign of self-discipline.
Dryleaves - Sep 19, 2008 11:02 pm (#399 of 2988)
Edited Sep 20, 2008 12:03 am
Snape also reminds me a bit of a jealous older child who provokes a conflict with the younger one in such a way that he knows the parent will be bound to "take the younger one's side" so that he can "prove" to the parent that he prefers the younger child. I think the way DD tells Snape in the end to walk with him back to the dinner table is also similar to a parent's reaction to this kind of "provocation": After "defending" the younger one, he finds an opportunity to talk privately to the older one and to soothe his jealousy by keeping him by his side. (Julia)
LOL! I think there is some truth in that description.
I got the impression that Snape was looking for Harry and Ron. Does he not say something like: "Or maybe he is wondering why you two didn't arrive by the train..." (I do not remember the exact quote, as you see.) I took it as if it had been noticed that Harry and Ron were missing on the train and that Snape had gone to investigate where they could be. But why he would look around Hogwarts then, I do not know... Maybe the damage on the Whomping Willow had been noticed or maybe he just happened to see them?
Julia H. - Sep 20, 2008 8:00 am (#400 of 2988)
I think there is some truth in that description. (Dryleaves)
I forgot to say that Dumbledore mentioning the "delicious-looking custard tart" also reinforced this picture for me. Dumbledore is almost saying something like: "Calm down and let's have a talk. There is no need to be so unhappy, you will get a piece of cake."
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mona amon - Sep 20, 2008 8:39 am (#401 of 2988)
Edited Sep 20, 2008 9:41 am
LOL! at the thought of Dumbledore trying to calm Snape down with a piece of cake!
Still, I am always fascinated at how JKR uses very human reactions and very real personality types in ways that add to the believability of her characters. (Wynnleaf)
Very true, Wynnleaf. Snape's a marvelously consistent character, unlike Dumbledore who gives us a nasty surprise now and then.
Since we know very few details about James, it is difficult to reconcile his good and bad sides. (It is a bit difficult to believe without further explanation that Lily's love would simply have resulted in a major personality change in him from one day to the other though I can imagine that the same fighting energy James had put into bullying others may have been redirected toward a meaningful, positive goal when he actively joined the fight against Voldemort and that also influenced his whole personality. Of course, we are never really told that.) (Julia)
I think James is a very consistent character as well (all the Marauders are). I do not feel much need to reconcile his good and bad sides, because his is not a very uncommon personality type (unlike Snape). Such people are successful, firmly on the side of the 'right', capable of standing up for their beliefs. They are helpful and loyal to those whom they like, and they are generally very popular with those whom they are good to. But they have no understanding or sympathy with those who are odd or different from them, and can be rather mean to such people. I do not feel he underwent a great personality change- Lily just liked him the way he was. But all this probably belongs on the James thread.
Julia H. - Oct 5, 2008 1:33 am (#402 of 2988)
I do not feel much need to reconcile his good and bad sides, because his is not a very uncommon personality type.. (Mona)
Interesting thought about James, Mona. When I think of him as a "type", I think he is the "fighter" type: on the one hand, someone who is good to have around when there is a war or when it comes to a sports game, but, on the other hand, also someone who will find an enemy and a reason to fight in any circumstances just because he needs to fight and to defeat someone.
Back to Snape, I've just noticed something about 9-year-old Severus's overlarge coat, which could have belonged to a grown man. By means of magic, it is possible to shrink an item of clothing. This is what Harry does once when he does not even know he is a wizard and, in GoF, Ron gives his sweater to Dobby saying that they would have to shrink it a little. If this is possible, then it is rather strange that the child of a witch has to wear a coat that is too large for him. It either means that Eileen does not care enough to do even this little trick for her son or that she never or hardly ever uses magic. Of course, Severus knows that she is a witch but she does not seem to make the most of her magical skills.
This leads me to think that Snape's upbringing may have been even more "Muggle-style" than I have thought so far. In this context, his hesitation after Lily's question (Does it make a difference, being Muggle-born?) may be interpreted in yet another way: He may have been bothered by a similar question ("Does it make a difference, being brought up like a Muggle?"), which is only one step away from "being Muggle-born". Perhaps his answer that it does not make a difference and the assertion that it is only the magic Lily possesses that counts may be his answer to his own doubts as well. In spite of everything, they've got the right to enter the world of wizards because they've got magic. Later too, he often makes an important point of the magical (or other) talent someone has.
Choices - Oct 5, 2008 8:42 am (#403 of 2988)
Edited Oct 5, 2008 9:44 am
Good thoughts Julia. As for the sweater and shrinking it, I had not even considered they would shrink it by magic. I just figured it was wool and one good washing in hot water would do the trick.
As for the over-large coat, maybe Severus liked it like that - maybe it was a hand-me-down from a favorite relative. Then again, perhaps his Mom just figured he would grow into it. Or, his Muggle father could have bought it for Severus and his Mom figured he (the dad) would be angry if she did a shrinking spell on it.
Just throwing out ideas. :-)
Julia H. - Oct 5, 2008 11:47 am (#404 of 2988)
Edited Oct 5, 2008 12:50 pm
Yes, there can be many reasons why the coat remained large but the non-shrinking of the coat and Eileen Prince helplessly cowering in front of her Muggle husband make me think she cannot have made much use of her magic. Perhaps because her husband did not like magic, she avoided using magic with his knowledge (i.e., when he would have seen either the magic itself or its obvious result).
Throwing out more ideas.
PeskyPixie - Oct 5, 2008 5:41 pm (#405 of 2988)
Edited Oct 5, 2008 6:43 pm
"Snape also reminds me a bit of a jealous older child who provokes a conflict with the younger one in such a way that he knows the parent will be bound to "take the younger one's side" so that he can "prove" to the parent that he prefers the younger child. I think the way DD tells Snape in the end to walk with him back to the dinner table is also similar to a parent's reaction to this kind of "provocation": After "defending" the younger one, he finds an opportunity to talk privately to the older one and to soothe his jealousy by keeping him by his side." -Julia
Yes! We had this discussion about a year ago and many of us agreed that there is an element of sibling rivalry in Snape's relationship with Harry. I remember a post about Hagrid, Severus and Harry as three foster brothers (with Dumbledore as their foster father).
Dryleaves - Oct 6, 2008 5:34 am (#406 of 2988)
Interesting observation about the coat, Julia. I think you may be right about magic not being used that often at the Snape's.
I noticed something else when I read this passage again. It says about Snape that "his clothes were so mismatched that it looked deliberate" (my italics). At least from Harry's interpretation Snape seems to know that his clothes are odd and seems to be a bit embarrassed about them, and this makes me think it was not Snape himself who deliberately put them on. I know that the expression could just mean that his clothes were extremely mismatched, but I cannot help thinking that it suggests an active neglect (abuse) from his parents and that is just so sad.
Soul Search - Oct 6, 2008 7:31 am (#407 of 2988)
The discussion of Snape's clothes in the playground scene got me wondering about the literary purpose for putting the child Snape in such odd clothing.
We read the scene after we have seven books with Snape always in the same clothes and described the same. Of course, most professors wear the same thing in all seven books, so this can't mean too much. Are we to infer that Snape picked his own clothes and was never very good at it? Or, that Snape was given such poor clothes by his parents that he never learned about choosing clothing?
PeskyPixie - Oct 6, 2008 7:35 am (#408 of 2988)
When little Severus runs after the Evans sisters in his ridiculously large overcoat, doesn't Harry think that he looks as batlike as ever?
Orion - Oct 6, 2008 7:57 am (#409 of 2988)
But a child who's still in single figures never ever chooses his own clothes. That's ridiculous, especially in a poor family where clothes are often second-hand or from charity.
Why does Snape insist on plain black? Well, when I read my first HP book I just assumed all wizards wore black and that DD with his colourful getup and McGonagall with her tartans were the big exceptions. Do wizards and witches wear much colour? We are never really told.
When the students go to Diagon Alley they have to buy plain black work robes. So for Snape, black is standard, normal and safe. When you're not very secure fashion-wise, black is always the easy option. Plus, it's the colour of mourning. Plus, it looks great.
Julia H. - Oct 6, 2008 1:15 pm (#410 of 2988)
Edited Oct 6, 2008 2:39 pm
The only thing we learn about the adult Snape's clothes is that he always wears black. That does not necessarily mean he does not know how to pick his clothes. As Orion says, black seems to be the standard at Hogwarts and it also symbolizes mourning. Apart from that, the black robes are necessary for Snape's general dark appearance: black eyes, black hair, black robes, dark arts. It also emphasizes that he lives a joyless, colorless life: cf. his cold and dark office and classroom, his solitude etc. (And black may even happen to be the color that suits him best .)
EDIT:
He's got green robes as well. I kind of like that image of him wearing green robes with his students during the Quidditch match. (Pesky)
Good observation. So he does have other clothes if only to demonstrate in-house unity in Slytherin. (Students like these things. I wonder what it is like in the early days when he is with the students of his house with no Gryffindors around.)
PeskyPixie - Oct 6, 2008 1:24 pm (#411 of 2988)
Well, he wears a grey nightshirt. He's got green robes as well. I kind of like that image of him wearing green robes with his students during the Quidditch match.
mona amon - Oct 6, 2008 7:33 pm (#412 of 2988)
Perhaps because her husband did not like magic, she avoided using magic with his knowledge (i.e., when he would have seen either the magic itself or its obvious result).(Julia)
That would make Eileen a second Merope, and if this is JKR's intention I feel she should have made it more clear. I think there are instances in the books where the obvious solution would be magic, and yet it is not always used. The only one I can remember right now is Neville breaking a teacup during divination. Sybil could have reparo-ed it with a flick of her wand, but that wouldn't have been as funny or character-revealing as "Oh, and dear-after you've broken your first cup, would you be so kind as to select one of the blue patterned ones? I'm rather attached to the pink." And hovering around him with dustpan and brush. I think the author must have found magic rather a pain at times.
I get the impression that Eileen did teach Severus quite a lot about magic and the wizarding world (he couldn't have picked up all that Dark Arts stuff which impressed Sirius so unfavourably from the local library), and she has defied her husband enough to ensure that her son got a proper magical education at Hogwarts. So I conclude that the coat was overlarge and the clothes mismatched only to show poverty and neglect, rather than a reluctance on Eileen's part to use magic.
Julia H. - Oct 6, 2008 11:02 pm (#413 of 2988)
I think there are instances in the books where the obvious solution would be magic, and yet it is not always used. ... I think the author must have found magic rather a pain at times. (Mona)
I know what you mean! Yet, even if we know this in our hearts, we can still try to find explanations within the story... E.g. we could suppose Trelawney was being deliberately mean (because of her own frustration) and found some satisfaction in making someone else feel stupid and guilty a bit. Or we could say her magical abilities were rather limited... I don't know.
I know Severus's coat is a sign of poverty and neglect but it is a rather serious degree of neglect if Eileen could have done some simple magic to make that coat more suitable for him (making her child somewhat happier, too) and she did not bother. That was not a question of money. Then there is also that picture of Eileen cowering... she could have defended herself easily unless, for some reason, she did not want or could not use magic. I also thought of the similarity between Eileen and Merope and I don't find it impossible just because we don't know the back-story in details here. Both women apparently suffered from lack of love and from poverty. Neither of their children had a real father. (As for what JKR intended, I am not a sufficiently accomplished Legilimens to try and guess that. I am only speaking about my interpretation. )
Yes, Severus did get a magical education at Hogwarts. Perhaps that was a question important enough for Eileen to fight for but she may not have had to fight that much. A father who does not like his son and his son's abilities, who has a bad relationship with both his wife and his child, may not be very much interested in where his son goes to school. Tobias knew his son would go away from home and he may have found it just fine. If they were so poor that they could not afford to buy proper clothes for their only child, Severus must have received a grant from Hogwarts (like Tom Riddle), which may have been a sort of relief for Tobias: he did not have to pay for the child's education.
This poverty itself also indicates that Eileen may not have used her magical skills very well. Harry was surprised to hear that Merope, a witch, had been so poor and then Dumbledore explained she had stopped using magic. This seems to suggests that magic can prevent extreme poverty. Eileen was a witch in a Muggle neighbourhood so she had skills that would probably have made her very efficient and successful in certain jobs (in comparison with Muggles). I know the Weasleys are described as poor, too, but their povery is not comparable to the Snapes'. In the Weasley family, there is only one bread-winner and a lot of children and that is IMO what makes them relatively poor: they have to buy a lot of second hand things and they grow their own vegetables but the children have got everything they really need, even pets and broomsticks, and when they win a lot money, they spend it on a holiday in Egypt. It seems it is really only luxuries that they cannot usually afford.
Eileen may have talked to Snape a lot about the wizarding world (that's not the same as using magic). We don't know where Snape picked up his initial Dark Arts knowledge but Eileen Prince does not strike me as a Dark Arts specialist. I don't think it impossible that Snape did learn quite a lot of things from books (not necessarily from the local library). One would think, when he first arrived at Hogwarts, his knowledge of curses must have been mainly theoretical anyway: without a wand of his own and without basic magical education he can't have had a truly practical knowledge of the Dark Arts.
Steve Newton - Oct 7, 2008 7:52 am (#414 of 2988)
I've been browsing and thought about Snape's memory of the man yelling at the woman. My first thought was that the woman was being more or less abused by the man. (It seems clear to me that it is father and mother but this is not explicitly stated.) Just recently I recalled that Snape may have come to school with a knowledge of the Dark Arts. If so then his mother must have taught him. This would make the father's demonstrated anger more reasonable. What this would do for the MPISM theory, I don't know. (I loved the MPISM theory.)
Julia H. - Oct 7, 2008 8:26 am (#415 of 2988)
A Muggle man abusing a witch, knowing that she could do, perhaps has done, Dark Magic? The same witch not retaliating? (In DH, it is implied that they regularly argue.)
Steve Newton - Oct 7, 2008 10:05 am (#416 of 2988)
If she felt guilty, yes.
legolas returns - Oct 8, 2008 8:58 am (#417 of 2988)
Snape had a muggle male to base his dress upon. Eileen was married to a muggle so she would have been aware how they dressed. He was not dressed in standard muggle fashion. I doubt that it was poverty because Ron and his siblings dressed not dissimilarly to muggles. They did not have much money but they managed to have hand me downs etc.
We know Snapes Father was abussive from the memory but why would that stop him making sure that attention was not unecessarily brought upon his family? By having a son who looked different it would cause people to talk.
Snape was proud of the fact that he was of magical descent. You dont go round calling yourself HBP if you are ashamed of your descent. His later hatred of muggles and joining the death eaters suggests that he would do as much as possible to not be muggle like.
I was wondering if it was more the case of a child with a selection of clothes who had a tendancy to wear his favourites until they fell off him. The long tunic type thing is possibly the nearest a child with muggle dress could get to wizard robes. The clothes were rapidly discarded once the decidedly wizard school clothes could be worn. Snape wore his robes on plat 9 3/4 whereas Harry and Ron did not get changes until nearly at school.
Julia H. - Oct 8, 2008 11:09 pm (#418 of 2988)
I was wondering if it was more the case of a child with a selection of clothes who had a tendancy to wear his favourites until they fell off him. (legolas returns)
In The Prince's Tale Harry doesn't simply watch Snape's memories as he had earlier watched memories in the Pensieve but - interestingly - he seems to register Snape's feelings, moods in more depth than he had done earlier when he watched someone's memories. I think we are meant to think that his interpretation this time is correct. Harry seems to be aware that Snape is embarrassed by his clothes and feels uncomfortable in them - the overlarge coat may be better than the smocklike shirt and that is why Snape wears it in the heat of the summer but he takes it off in the shade where the shirt is not so conspicuous. He doesn't seem to be wearing his favourite clothes.
I agree that Snape is proud of being a wizard and of having wizarding ancestors and that his longing to really become a part of the wizarding community probably plays a part in his decision to become a Slytherin and ultimately a DE. However, I'm not sure about his hatred of Muggles. Just like Harry, he seems to meet the wrong sort of Muggles in his childhood - at least we only know about his relationship with his father and Petunia.
The fact that his father does not love him (or so he thinks at least) is extremely important: If a child does not feel being loved and/or accepted by (either of) his parents, it will have a serious effect on how he sees himself, on how and with what he tries to identify and on his psyche in general. It is far worse than being mistreated by a mean guardian like Vernon Dursley in Harry's case (which is also bad enough).
Then his relationship with Petunia: She is not exactly kind to him, besides, they are rivals for Lily's love. I wonder how Snape views other Muggles, like Lily's parents, for example: they seem to be nice people and better parents than Snape's. Of course, we don't know that but I guess Petunia's behaviour (taunting Snape about his clothes and the place where he lives) is not untypical: Snape is a poor and neglected child and also a wizard so he is probably too different, too irregular to be liked by Muggle children (at school, for example). (I know they don't know he is a wizard but he is probably strange enough for them to feel that "something is wrong with him".)
So I think he has bad experiences with Muggles but I'm not sure if the result is exactly hatred towards Muggles in general. In any case, he loves a Muggle-born witch and later he keeps his childhood home(?), although it is in a Muggle neighbourhood. BTW, he does not seem to be angry with his father or to hate him. He only wants to go away as soon as possible.
wynnleaf - Oct 10, 2008 8:23 pm (#419 of 2988)
Sorry to jump in with a different topic, but I'm hoping someone can help me out here.
On a completely other site a reader mentioned not being able to find the quote about Snape giving "as good as he got" or something like that. I have certainly seen people refer to such a quote numerous times, and may have done so myself. But upon searching and searching for it, I can't find it. Naturally, I first went to the Career Advice chapter in OOTP, but it wasn't there.
Does such a quote actually exist?
Julia H. - Oct 11, 2008 3:18 am (#420 of 2988)
Edited Oct 11, 2008 4:24 am
Wynnleaf, I'm trying to find it, too, but it seems to be nowhere. Could this "quote" be just an urban legend?
(How would that change our view of Severus?)
wynnleaf - Oct 11, 2008 3:26 am (#421 of 2988)
I don't think it's a JKR quote. I'm fairly sure she never commented on the nature of Snape's actions toward the Marauders. I think I assumed this was a quote from Sirius or perhaps Lupin. Could it be in POA?
Julia H. - Oct 11, 2008 3:44 am (#422 of 2988)
Edited Oct 11, 2008 5:01 am
I didn't find it there either. BTW, I assumed the same, i.e., that it was a quote from Sirius or Lupin.
Jo, did you ever write anything like that?
rambkowalczyk - Oct 11, 2008 6:06 am (#423 of 2988)
Lupin says it to Harry in book 5 when Harry asks him about the worst memory. doesn't he?
Julia H. - Oct 11, 2008 7:08 am (#424 of 2988)
Edited Oct 11, 2008 8:12 am
Ramb, could you quote the exact passage?
wynnleaf - Oct 11, 2008 7:21 am (#425 of 2988)
Lupin says it to Harry in book 5 when Harry asks him about the worst memory. doesn't he? (ramb)
I could have sworn that's where it was, but when I read it last night (several times), I couldn't find it.
Edited Sep 20, 2008 9:41 am
LOL! at the thought of Dumbledore trying to calm Snape down with a piece of cake!
Still, I am always fascinated at how JKR uses very human reactions and very real personality types in ways that add to the believability of her characters. (Wynnleaf)
Very true, Wynnleaf. Snape's a marvelously consistent character, unlike Dumbledore who gives us a nasty surprise now and then.
Since we know very few details about James, it is difficult to reconcile his good and bad sides. (It is a bit difficult to believe without further explanation that Lily's love would simply have resulted in a major personality change in him from one day to the other though I can imagine that the same fighting energy James had put into bullying others may have been redirected toward a meaningful, positive goal when he actively joined the fight against Voldemort and that also influenced his whole personality. Of course, we are never really told that.) (Julia)
I think James is a very consistent character as well (all the Marauders are). I do not feel much need to reconcile his good and bad sides, because his is not a very uncommon personality type (unlike Snape). Such people are successful, firmly on the side of the 'right', capable of standing up for their beliefs. They are helpful and loyal to those whom they like, and they are generally very popular with those whom they are good to. But they have no understanding or sympathy with those who are odd or different from them, and can be rather mean to such people. I do not feel he underwent a great personality change- Lily just liked him the way he was. But all this probably belongs on the James thread.
Julia H. - Oct 5, 2008 1:33 am (#402 of 2988)
I do not feel much need to reconcile his good and bad sides, because his is not a very uncommon personality type.. (Mona)
Interesting thought about James, Mona. When I think of him as a "type", I think he is the "fighter" type: on the one hand, someone who is good to have around when there is a war or when it comes to a sports game, but, on the other hand, also someone who will find an enemy and a reason to fight in any circumstances just because he needs to fight and to defeat someone.
Back to Snape, I've just noticed something about 9-year-old Severus's overlarge coat, which could have belonged to a grown man. By means of magic, it is possible to shrink an item of clothing. This is what Harry does once when he does not even know he is a wizard and, in GoF, Ron gives his sweater to Dobby saying that they would have to shrink it a little. If this is possible, then it is rather strange that the child of a witch has to wear a coat that is too large for him. It either means that Eileen does not care enough to do even this little trick for her son or that she never or hardly ever uses magic. Of course, Severus knows that she is a witch but she does not seem to make the most of her magical skills.
This leads me to think that Snape's upbringing may have been even more "Muggle-style" than I have thought so far. In this context, his hesitation after Lily's question (Does it make a difference, being Muggle-born?) may be interpreted in yet another way: He may have been bothered by a similar question ("Does it make a difference, being brought up like a Muggle?"), which is only one step away from "being Muggle-born". Perhaps his answer that it does not make a difference and the assertion that it is only the magic Lily possesses that counts may be his answer to his own doubts as well. In spite of everything, they've got the right to enter the world of wizards because they've got magic. Later too, he often makes an important point of the magical (or other) talent someone has.
Choices - Oct 5, 2008 8:42 am (#403 of 2988)
Edited Oct 5, 2008 9:44 am
Good thoughts Julia. As for the sweater and shrinking it, I had not even considered they would shrink it by magic. I just figured it was wool and one good washing in hot water would do the trick.
As for the over-large coat, maybe Severus liked it like that - maybe it was a hand-me-down from a favorite relative. Then again, perhaps his Mom just figured he would grow into it. Or, his Muggle father could have bought it for Severus and his Mom figured he (the dad) would be angry if she did a shrinking spell on it.
Just throwing out ideas. :-)
Julia H. - Oct 5, 2008 11:47 am (#404 of 2988)
Edited Oct 5, 2008 12:50 pm
Yes, there can be many reasons why the coat remained large but the non-shrinking of the coat and Eileen Prince helplessly cowering in front of her Muggle husband make me think she cannot have made much use of her magic. Perhaps because her husband did not like magic, she avoided using magic with his knowledge (i.e., when he would have seen either the magic itself or its obvious result).
Throwing out more ideas.
PeskyPixie - Oct 5, 2008 5:41 pm (#405 of 2988)
Edited Oct 5, 2008 6:43 pm
"Snape also reminds me a bit of a jealous older child who provokes a conflict with the younger one in such a way that he knows the parent will be bound to "take the younger one's side" so that he can "prove" to the parent that he prefers the younger child. I think the way DD tells Snape in the end to walk with him back to the dinner table is also similar to a parent's reaction to this kind of "provocation": After "defending" the younger one, he finds an opportunity to talk privately to the older one and to soothe his jealousy by keeping him by his side." -Julia
Yes! We had this discussion about a year ago and many of us agreed that there is an element of sibling rivalry in Snape's relationship with Harry. I remember a post about Hagrid, Severus and Harry as three foster brothers (with Dumbledore as their foster father).
Dryleaves - Oct 6, 2008 5:34 am (#406 of 2988)
Interesting observation about the coat, Julia. I think you may be right about magic not being used that often at the Snape's.
I noticed something else when I read this passage again. It says about Snape that "his clothes were so mismatched that it looked deliberate" (my italics). At least from Harry's interpretation Snape seems to know that his clothes are odd and seems to be a bit embarrassed about them, and this makes me think it was not Snape himself who deliberately put them on. I know that the expression could just mean that his clothes were extremely mismatched, but I cannot help thinking that it suggests an active neglect (abuse) from his parents and that is just so sad.
Soul Search - Oct 6, 2008 7:31 am (#407 of 2988)
The discussion of Snape's clothes in the playground scene got me wondering about the literary purpose for putting the child Snape in such odd clothing.
We read the scene after we have seven books with Snape always in the same clothes and described the same. Of course, most professors wear the same thing in all seven books, so this can't mean too much. Are we to infer that Snape picked his own clothes and was never very good at it? Or, that Snape was given such poor clothes by his parents that he never learned about choosing clothing?
PeskyPixie - Oct 6, 2008 7:35 am (#408 of 2988)
When little Severus runs after the Evans sisters in his ridiculously large overcoat, doesn't Harry think that he looks as batlike as ever?
Orion - Oct 6, 2008 7:57 am (#409 of 2988)
But a child who's still in single figures never ever chooses his own clothes. That's ridiculous, especially in a poor family where clothes are often second-hand or from charity.
Why does Snape insist on plain black? Well, when I read my first HP book I just assumed all wizards wore black and that DD with his colourful getup and McGonagall with her tartans were the big exceptions. Do wizards and witches wear much colour? We are never really told.
When the students go to Diagon Alley they have to buy plain black work robes. So for Snape, black is standard, normal and safe. When you're not very secure fashion-wise, black is always the easy option. Plus, it's the colour of mourning. Plus, it looks great.
Julia H. - Oct 6, 2008 1:15 pm (#410 of 2988)
Edited Oct 6, 2008 2:39 pm
The only thing we learn about the adult Snape's clothes is that he always wears black. That does not necessarily mean he does not know how to pick his clothes. As Orion says, black seems to be the standard at Hogwarts and it also symbolizes mourning. Apart from that, the black robes are necessary for Snape's general dark appearance: black eyes, black hair, black robes, dark arts. It also emphasizes that he lives a joyless, colorless life: cf. his cold and dark office and classroom, his solitude etc. (And black may even happen to be the color that suits him best .)
EDIT:
He's got green robes as well. I kind of like that image of him wearing green robes with his students during the Quidditch match. (Pesky)
Good observation. So he does have other clothes if only to demonstrate in-house unity in Slytherin. (Students like these things. I wonder what it is like in the early days when he is with the students of his house with no Gryffindors around.)
PeskyPixie - Oct 6, 2008 1:24 pm (#411 of 2988)
Well, he wears a grey nightshirt. He's got green robes as well. I kind of like that image of him wearing green robes with his students during the Quidditch match.
mona amon - Oct 6, 2008 7:33 pm (#412 of 2988)
Perhaps because her husband did not like magic, she avoided using magic with his knowledge (i.e., when he would have seen either the magic itself or its obvious result).(Julia)
That would make Eileen a second Merope, and if this is JKR's intention I feel she should have made it more clear. I think there are instances in the books where the obvious solution would be magic, and yet it is not always used. The only one I can remember right now is Neville breaking a teacup during divination. Sybil could have reparo-ed it with a flick of her wand, but that wouldn't have been as funny or character-revealing as "Oh, and dear-after you've broken your first cup, would you be so kind as to select one of the blue patterned ones? I'm rather attached to the pink." And hovering around him with dustpan and brush. I think the author must have found magic rather a pain at times.
I get the impression that Eileen did teach Severus quite a lot about magic and the wizarding world (he couldn't have picked up all that Dark Arts stuff which impressed Sirius so unfavourably from the local library), and she has defied her husband enough to ensure that her son got a proper magical education at Hogwarts. So I conclude that the coat was overlarge and the clothes mismatched only to show poverty and neglect, rather than a reluctance on Eileen's part to use magic.
Julia H. - Oct 6, 2008 11:02 pm (#413 of 2988)
I think there are instances in the books where the obvious solution would be magic, and yet it is not always used. ... I think the author must have found magic rather a pain at times. (Mona)
I know what you mean! Yet, even if we know this in our hearts, we can still try to find explanations within the story... E.g. we could suppose Trelawney was being deliberately mean (because of her own frustration) and found some satisfaction in making someone else feel stupid and guilty a bit. Or we could say her magical abilities were rather limited... I don't know.
I know Severus's coat is a sign of poverty and neglect but it is a rather serious degree of neglect if Eileen could have done some simple magic to make that coat more suitable for him (making her child somewhat happier, too) and she did not bother. That was not a question of money. Then there is also that picture of Eileen cowering... she could have defended herself easily unless, for some reason, she did not want or could not use magic. I also thought of the similarity between Eileen and Merope and I don't find it impossible just because we don't know the back-story in details here. Both women apparently suffered from lack of love and from poverty. Neither of their children had a real father. (As for what JKR intended, I am not a sufficiently accomplished Legilimens to try and guess that. I am only speaking about my interpretation. )
Yes, Severus did get a magical education at Hogwarts. Perhaps that was a question important enough for Eileen to fight for but she may not have had to fight that much. A father who does not like his son and his son's abilities, who has a bad relationship with both his wife and his child, may not be very much interested in where his son goes to school. Tobias knew his son would go away from home and he may have found it just fine. If they were so poor that they could not afford to buy proper clothes for their only child, Severus must have received a grant from Hogwarts (like Tom Riddle), which may have been a sort of relief for Tobias: he did not have to pay for the child's education.
This poverty itself also indicates that Eileen may not have used her magical skills very well. Harry was surprised to hear that Merope, a witch, had been so poor and then Dumbledore explained she had stopped using magic. This seems to suggests that magic can prevent extreme poverty. Eileen was a witch in a Muggle neighbourhood so she had skills that would probably have made her very efficient and successful in certain jobs (in comparison with Muggles). I know the Weasleys are described as poor, too, but their povery is not comparable to the Snapes'. In the Weasley family, there is only one bread-winner and a lot of children and that is IMO what makes them relatively poor: they have to buy a lot of second hand things and they grow their own vegetables but the children have got everything they really need, even pets and broomsticks, and when they win a lot money, they spend it on a holiday in Egypt. It seems it is really only luxuries that they cannot usually afford.
Eileen may have talked to Snape a lot about the wizarding world (that's not the same as using magic). We don't know where Snape picked up his initial Dark Arts knowledge but Eileen Prince does not strike me as a Dark Arts specialist. I don't think it impossible that Snape did learn quite a lot of things from books (not necessarily from the local library). One would think, when he first arrived at Hogwarts, his knowledge of curses must have been mainly theoretical anyway: without a wand of his own and without basic magical education he can't have had a truly practical knowledge of the Dark Arts.
Steve Newton - Oct 7, 2008 7:52 am (#414 of 2988)
I've been browsing and thought about Snape's memory of the man yelling at the woman. My first thought was that the woman was being more or less abused by the man. (It seems clear to me that it is father and mother but this is not explicitly stated.) Just recently I recalled that Snape may have come to school with a knowledge of the Dark Arts. If so then his mother must have taught him. This would make the father's demonstrated anger more reasonable. What this would do for the MPISM theory, I don't know. (I loved the MPISM theory.)
Julia H. - Oct 7, 2008 8:26 am (#415 of 2988)
A Muggle man abusing a witch, knowing that she could do, perhaps has done, Dark Magic? The same witch not retaliating? (In DH, it is implied that they regularly argue.)
Steve Newton - Oct 7, 2008 10:05 am (#416 of 2988)
If she felt guilty, yes.
legolas returns - Oct 8, 2008 8:58 am (#417 of 2988)
Snape had a muggle male to base his dress upon. Eileen was married to a muggle so she would have been aware how they dressed. He was not dressed in standard muggle fashion. I doubt that it was poverty because Ron and his siblings dressed not dissimilarly to muggles. They did not have much money but they managed to have hand me downs etc.
We know Snapes Father was abussive from the memory but why would that stop him making sure that attention was not unecessarily brought upon his family? By having a son who looked different it would cause people to talk.
Snape was proud of the fact that he was of magical descent. You dont go round calling yourself HBP if you are ashamed of your descent. His later hatred of muggles and joining the death eaters suggests that he would do as much as possible to not be muggle like.
I was wondering if it was more the case of a child with a selection of clothes who had a tendancy to wear his favourites until they fell off him. The long tunic type thing is possibly the nearest a child with muggle dress could get to wizard robes. The clothes were rapidly discarded once the decidedly wizard school clothes could be worn. Snape wore his robes on plat 9 3/4 whereas Harry and Ron did not get changes until nearly at school.
Julia H. - Oct 8, 2008 11:09 pm (#418 of 2988)
I was wondering if it was more the case of a child with a selection of clothes who had a tendancy to wear his favourites until they fell off him. (legolas returns)
In The Prince's Tale Harry doesn't simply watch Snape's memories as he had earlier watched memories in the Pensieve but - interestingly - he seems to register Snape's feelings, moods in more depth than he had done earlier when he watched someone's memories. I think we are meant to think that his interpretation this time is correct. Harry seems to be aware that Snape is embarrassed by his clothes and feels uncomfortable in them - the overlarge coat may be better than the smocklike shirt and that is why Snape wears it in the heat of the summer but he takes it off in the shade where the shirt is not so conspicuous. He doesn't seem to be wearing his favourite clothes.
I agree that Snape is proud of being a wizard and of having wizarding ancestors and that his longing to really become a part of the wizarding community probably plays a part in his decision to become a Slytherin and ultimately a DE. However, I'm not sure about his hatred of Muggles. Just like Harry, he seems to meet the wrong sort of Muggles in his childhood - at least we only know about his relationship with his father and Petunia.
The fact that his father does not love him (or so he thinks at least) is extremely important: If a child does not feel being loved and/or accepted by (either of) his parents, it will have a serious effect on how he sees himself, on how and with what he tries to identify and on his psyche in general. It is far worse than being mistreated by a mean guardian like Vernon Dursley in Harry's case (which is also bad enough).
Then his relationship with Petunia: She is not exactly kind to him, besides, they are rivals for Lily's love. I wonder how Snape views other Muggles, like Lily's parents, for example: they seem to be nice people and better parents than Snape's. Of course, we don't know that but I guess Petunia's behaviour (taunting Snape about his clothes and the place where he lives) is not untypical: Snape is a poor and neglected child and also a wizard so he is probably too different, too irregular to be liked by Muggle children (at school, for example). (I know they don't know he is a wizard but he is probably strange enough for them to feel that "something is wrong with him".)
So I think he has bad experiences with Muggles but I'm not sure if the result is exactly hatred towards Muggles in general. In any case, he loves a Muggle-born witch and later he keeps his childhood home(?), although it is in a Muggle neighbourhood. BTW, he does not seem to be angry with his father or to hate him. He only wants to go away as soon as possible.
wynnleaf - Oct 10, 2008 8:23 pm (#419 of 2988)
Sorry to jump in with a different topic, but I'm hoping someone can help me out here.
On a completely other site a reader mentioned not being able to find the quote about Snape giving "as good as he got" or something like that. I have certainly seen people refer to such a quote numerous times, and may have done so myself. But upon searching and searching for it, I can't find it. Naturally, I first went to the Career Advice chapter in OOTP, but it wasn't there.
Does such a quote actually exist?
Julia H. - Oct 11, 2008 3:18 am (#420 of 2988)
Edited Oct 11, 2008 4:24 am
Wynnleaf, I'm trying to find it, too, but it seems to be nowhere. Could this "quote" be just an urban legend?
(How would that change our view of Severus?)
wynnleaf - Oct 11, 2008 3:26 am (#421 of 2988)
I don't think it's a JKR quote. I'm fairly sure she never commented on the nature of Snape's actions toward the Marauders. I think I assumed this was a quote from Sirius or perhaps Lupin. Could it be in POA?
Julia H. - Oct 11, 2008 3:44 am (#422 of 2988)
Edited Oct 11, 2008 5:01 am
I didn't find it there either. BTW, I assumed the same, i.e., that it was a quote from Sirius or Lupin.
Jo, did you ever write anything like that?
rambkowalczyk - Oct 11, 2008 6:06 am (#423 of 2988)
Lupin says it to Harry in book 5 when Harry asks him about the worst memory. doesn't he?
Julia H. - Oct 11, 2008 7:08 am (#424 of 2988)
Edited Oct 11, 2008 8:12 am
Ramb, could you quote the exact passage?
wynnleaf - Oct 11, 2008 7:21 am (#425 of 2988)
Lupin says it to Harry in book 5 when Harry asks him about the worst memory. doesn't he? (ramb)
I could have sworn that's where it was, but when I read it last night (several times), I couldn't find it.
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