Severus Snape

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Post  Mona on Mon May 23, 2011 6:48 am

Gina R Snape - Aug 3, 2004 2:23 pm (#1701 of 2956)
Well, if Snape were James' half-brother then the Dursleys wouldn't be Harry's only living relative. So, I don't think that one works. Interesting thought, though!

Solitaire (and other newbies), there is a search function that can be used for individual threads and forum-wide. In the archives is an entire thread on the Snape/Lily relationship, and one on the Perseus Evans theories I believe. I know they have been discussed at length. But if you have a new spin, I bet others would be interested.


Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Aug 3, 2004 2:23 pm (#1702 of 2956)
Regarding the methods employed by the professors at Hogwarts: I think what separates Snape from every other teacher is the implied lack of faith in his students ability to perform the work. Whether strict or lenient, the teachers approach their classes with the expectation and the belief that the material is inherently learnable.

Snape sets the bar high then uses reverse psychology to challenge the students to reach it. Some people thrive on this sort of thing--think Hermione. Many don't. Perhaps Snape is only interested in the ones who have the fire to prove him wrong. Perhaps he believes brilliance shows itself when under pressure. Perhaps he does have faith in his students but doesn't want them to rely on the approval of any teacher but rather develop faith in themselves. I think this is what he had to do growing up and considers it a lesson worth passing along.


Gina R Snape - Aug 3, 2004 2:24 pm (#1703 of 2956)
Well, if Snape were James' half-brother then the Dursleys wouldn't be Harry's only living relative. So, I don't think that one works. Interesting thought, though!

Solitaire (and other newbies), there is a search function that can be used for individual threads and forum-wide. In the archives is an entire thread on the Snape/Lily relationship, and one on the Perseus Evans theories I believe. I know they have been discussed at length. But if you have a new spin, I bet others would be interested.

I don't know if I'm the most knowledgeable on the board regarding Snape, or just the most crazed enthusiastic on the subject. But I am the President of the Detention with Snape! Club and you are free to join if you pledge him your undying love and respect.


Solitaire - Aug 3, 2004 2:42 pm (#1704 of 2956)
Thanks for the invitation, Gina. I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully decline. As a junior high teacher, I already spend enough time running detention. Also, I don't think Snape and I would get along. My discipline style is more a combo of Remus and McGonagall. I might get PUT into Snape's detention hall, however, for performing a charm on Umbridge's bow. I'd like to make it bite her head each time SHE does something unethical. Smile

Thank you for the archive information. I may seek it out ... although frankly, just keeping up with the few threads on which I'm posting is practically a full time job. Also, judging from the wide variety of theories I've already seen on the various threads, I can't suppose I have anything new or earth-shattering to share.

Solitaire


Elanor - Aug 3, 2004 2:42 pm (#1705 of 2956)
I like your theory too, Contess. Do you know that the name of "Morgane Lefey" comes from the french words "Morgane la fée" (Morgane the fairy) who had healing powers : she was Arthur's protector and she gave him immortality when she brought him on the Avallon island. So, if you're right, there is maybe something to learn about their mothers. After all, all we know about James' parents is that they welcomed Sirius when he was a student. We don't know how they died, but they seemed to have been both alive when James was at Hogwarts. As for Snape's mother, is she still alive? I hope we will hear more details about his childhood in the HBP, it could explain a lot of things.

On another thread, someone was asking is Snape could be at last the next DADA teacher. I love this idea too, he would be a strong one (poor Neville...), and as he is longing for it for ages, he would try to show his ability. Exciting thought ! I've always wondered why he wanted that job so badly. He must be ambitious of course, but it isn?t a really satisfactory answer. There is more behind it, even maybe something like fear coming from his past, his own interest in Dark Arts once and where it led him to.

And all of these facts (his past, his ambitions, his teaching behaviour...) are closely linked. Well, I don't think he'll get the DADA job : he will be too busy working in the shadow for Dumbledore and, what is more, it would be tempting for Voldemort to use him to lure people on him, forcing him by the way to reveal his cover, for I assume that if Dombledore says he is to be trusted, he must be right. What a pity, I really loved that idea...


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 3, 2004 2:54 pm (#1706 of 2956)
"I'm also wondering if Petunia isn't a kind of Mrs. Black in reverse ... she sort of "erases" anyone magical from the family history."

I'm not too sure about that. Before OotP, I would agree with you Solitaire, but in book 5, after the dementor scare, Petunia "looks" at Harry different - not with contempt but love. Harry maybe a wizard, but he is still Lily's only. He is family after all and I would be prepared to bet that Petunia would sacrifice herself for Harry (Vernon on the other hand - I wouldn't put my money on it).

However, I do agree with you that when Snape called Lily a mudblood is very telling on his character. When I first read that line, it immediately made my relate Snape to Lucius Malfoy. I know he was in Slytherin, but does he have this much contempt for Muggle Borns? Is he a racist, like the Malfoy family? Could this be a reason for joining the DE? I honestly don't know! If so, I doubt DD would allow such a racist teacher into Hogwarts but the term "mudblood" is the most insulting, even disgusting name in the Wizard language that we know of. I also doubt that JKR had Snape say that purely because of the heat of the moment. I'm just lost again Sad


Kasse - Aug 3, 2004 3:03 pm (#1707 of 2956)
I also doubt that JKR had Snape say that purely because of the heat of the moment. - Richard Reid

I have to disagree and bring up a point that Gina has already made. This is the only time that we have ever heard him call anyone a mudblood. I do believe that it was in the heat of the moment that he said this possibly because he was embarassed that she had just "rescued" him


Solitaire - Aug 3, 2004 3:06 pm (#1708 of 2956)
Do you really think Petunia looks at Harry with love? I don't see it at all. Her treatment of him from this point doesn't show it. She doesn't even move to stop Uncle Vernon from kicking him out--until DD's howler.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that she is more fearful of reprisals from DD than anything else. She has made a bargain, and she must abide by it, like it or not. She adheres to the LETTER of her agreement, if not the spirit. It is, at once, the most and the least she can do.

As it stands, this post probably belongs elsewhere, since it doesn't really deal with Snape--so it may be moved. I am just responding to part of your post above. Also, I still can't help suspecting some sort of Lily/Snape connection.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Aug 3, 2004 3:17 pm (#1709 of 2956)
Snape as James' illegitimate half-brother? Someone's been reading too many of Elizabeth Peters' Amelia Peabody mysteries. :-)

I don't think we know about Snape's ancestry one way or the other. Supposedly, Slytherin "took only pure-blood students of great cunning, just like him," but we know Tom Riddle was a half-blood. In his case, maybe being descended from Slytherin got him in.

The "Mudblood" comment could cut either way; he could be either a bigoted pureblood, or a half-blood in terror of being found out. (Or he could have called Lily that just to provoke James.)

As long as we're talking about reversals, could Snape be a Sirius-in-reverse? Maybe he took up the Dark Arts in rebellion against a Crouch-like family.


ShelterGirl - Aug 3, 2004 3:24 pm (#1710 of 2956)
There's an old axiom that people are always capable of the greatest cruelty to those they care the most for. I absolutely agree that Snape was mortified that Lily saw him in his skivvies, and that it appeared that she had to "save" him. How awful for him. Not only did a girl who he most likely found attractive see his dirty drawers, but in his mind this probably ruined any future shot he might have had with her. Would anyone so lacking in self esteem want to go on a date with a girl who had witnessed that happen to them? What would one talk about? How would anyone avoid that topic? By calling her a mudblood he effectively insulted her, driving her away, and so secured in his mind that, "She never would have dated me anyway. She hates me." Not that I think he had a chance with her anyway, but hey, this is his pensieve we're swimming in at the moment.


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 3, 2004 3:29 pm (#1711 of 2956)
"She was looking at Harry as she had never looked at him before. And all of a sudden, for the very first time in his life, Harry fully appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister."

I think she was more in shock and she came to her senses after the howler - "she was rapidly regaining her brisk, snappish manner." I do believe that Petunia genuinely cares about Harry, but is put off him for being a wizard. However, I think I've moved off topic a bit so sorry for that.

Now, back to Snape. I think we will find out what Snape's true feelings are about Muggle Borns in the next book and at the moment, all ideas are possibilities. Personally, I believe Snape is a good-guy and by calling Lily a mudblood, he knew he would infuriate James even more - which we know he has no problem doing. At the moment, I am just toying around with different ideas.


Chemyst - Aug 3, 2004 3:47 pm (#1712 of 2956)
On the use of mudblood: I also doubt that JKR had Snape say that purely because of the heat of the moment. - Richard Reid I'm inclined to agree it wasn't said in a "momentary-anger-heat." It sounded more like an embarrassed defensive comeback. But if the real root was simply to infuriate James further, then we should bury all those "Snape had a secret crush on Lily" theories, because being embarrassed by Lily and willfully riling James at her expense are two very different things.


T Brightwater - Aug 3, 2004 4:03 pm (#1713 of 2956)
I can't help contrasting Harry's reactions to being chastised by Snape and Lupin after his second illicit visit to Hogsmeade. It's Lupin, who likes and respects Harry, who makes him feel ashamed of himself. Snape mostly uses Harry's misdeed as an excuse to rant about James.

I don't think his attitude helps any of his students, and he acts as though he'd like them all to fail. If he really wanted to encourage excellence, he'd do some advanced work with Hermione and not keep cutting her down.

Neville and Harry are both better at making potions when Snape isn't around. If he isn't going to do anything more helpful than insult people, why doesn't he just give them the day's assignment and leave?


Solitaire - Aug 3, 2004 4:27 pm (#1714 of 2956)
Brightwater, I like your call about Harry's visit to Hogsmeade. Snape saw it as yet another opportunity to torment Harry about his dad's arrogance and flaunting of the rules, didn't he?

Lupin cut to the core of why it had been a stupid thing to do. Not only had Harry broken the rules and exposed himself to danger; he had shown himself careless about the fact that his parents gave their lives to save him. That hurt, especially coming from someone he respected and considered a friend, someone he knew only had his best interests at heart.

Poor Snape. He needs to take a Dale Carnegie course on How to Win Friends and Influence People--or else have Professor Flitwick put an Elwood P. Dowd charm on him. I've worked with teachers who are brilliant in their subject area but have zero people skills. They blunt their own potential effectiveness by their manner.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Aug 3, 2004 4:33 pm (#1715 of 2956)
"I've worked with teachers who are brilliant in their subject area but have zero people skills. They blunt their own potential effectiveness by their manner."

That sums it up very well. Harry is a much better teacher than Snape - look at all the progress Neville makes in his class as opposed to Potions.


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 3, 2004 4:44 pm (#1716 of 2956)
I wonder if Snape even likes teaching Potions. I wonder if he even likes teaching at all. I wonder if he's there because Dumbledore asked him to do it for one reason or another. He certainally would perfer to teach DADA, but I get the impression he torments Neville because he is somewhat bored. He is certainally compitant in the subject but if he enjoys it, is another matter. Harry actually believed that they were doing the right thing and preparing for LV and his dark followers, and was inspired even more by Umbridge and her punishments. Does Snape have this kind of motovation, or was he simply killing time until LV returned.???


Gina R Snape - Aug 3, 2004 4:50 pm (#1717 of 2956)
See, now, I interpret that scene entirely differently.

The way I see it, both Snape and Lupin are telling Harry the same thing--your thoughtless actions are endangering yourself and others, and you should be mindful of the fact that so many have given and continue to give their all just to protect you.

It's just that Lupin has a better grasp of how to talk to children. But the message is the same. This is a subtle demonstration that...once again...Snape may be good but he just isn't nice. He really does care. He just goes about things differently than most.


Weeny Owl - Aug 3, 2004 7:14 pm (#1718 of 2956)
Snape as James' illegitimate half-brother? Someone's been reading too many of Elizabeth Peters' Amelia Peabody mysteries. :-)

I have to chuckle at this because of who Emerson's illegitimate brother turned out to be. I love the Amelia Peabody books, but moving on to Snape...

...I will say that JKR will probably not be introducing illegitimate siblings in any of her books. As for Snape being anyone's half-brother? It's always possible, but how would it fit within the framework of the series? How would it advance the plot?

The way I see it, both Snape and Lupin are telling Harry the same thing--your thoughtless actions are endangering yourself and others, and you should be mindful of the fact that so many have given and continue to give their all just to protect you.

This will come as no surprise to you, Gina, but I most definitely agree. Lupin and Snape WERE saying the same thing but in much different ways.

Snape isn't the ideal teacher. He isn't someone who conjures up pictures of fluffy bunny rabbits or of sharing one's personal thoughts with. He does serve a purpose, though, and that is that the characters in the series and the readers themselves will encounter that type of reaction at some point in their lives, and it's up to them to learn how to deal effectively with such reactions. The students are still learning, and especially our trio. Snape hasn't had a student die in a potions class, and he's obviously effective in his own way since Umbridge pointed that out and it irked her. I was so proud of him when she was blathering on about it.

Snape is not going to be anyone's father confessor, but when it counts, he comes through.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 3, 2004 9:02 pm (#1719 of 2956)
That was a mouthful for a Weeny Owl, well said!


Elanor - Aug 3, 2004 11:05 pm (#1720 of 2956)
I agree with you Gina and Weeny Owl. All the more because, in the book, we have seen these two scenes from Harry's point of view. And I think that Harry couldn't put up with earing the truth from someone he hates : if Snapes says it, it must be wrong or done in the prospect of setting a trap for him !

I think that's why occlumency didn't really worked : Harry wasn't able to trust Snape and he wasn't ready to accept Snape really wanted to help him, not because he likes him maybe, but because he had to, for I see Snape as a man of conscience.

I'm just guessing, but I think the time these two will leave their mutual hate out and admit they can trust each other, Voldemort had better watch out ! And they certainly will have to ! Maybe was that what the Sorting Hat wanted to say when he said "we must unite inside her or we'll crumble from within".


Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 4:25 am (#1721 of 2956)
We also have to remember that the scenes Harry has seen are Snape's memories. He has not had the privilege of looking in Pensieves of Remus, Sirius, James, or Lily--which would give a more "rounded" version of events, I am sure. I do not think we can discount the fact that perhaps Snape's hatred of James colors how he remembers events that involved him. It is possible that Snape--like my sister frequently does--conveniently forgets the roles he may have had in provoking certain incidents.

If Snape is only in his mid-thirties--not that old--he may not yet be distant enough from the events Harry saw to view them realistically. Also, he never had--and will never have--the chance to make peace with James as an adult. He seems to have made a grudging peace with Remus--although he was willing enough to hand him over to Azkaban without a second thought, so perhaps not. He certainly had never forgiven Sirius and frequently goaded him into behaving rashly.

Given the life Snape seems to have had at Hogwarts--based on his Pensieve memories--and his membership in the DE, his scars may run too deeply to ever fully heal. We know DD has realized this by his comments at the end of OotP. I only hope Harry can come to understand it, so that he is able to get past Snape's behavior and deal with him on a more adult basis ... even if Snape is not yet capable of doing the same thing.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Aug 4, 2004 4:56 am (#1722 of 2956)
"He does serve a purpose, though, and that is that the characters in the series and the readers themselves will encounter that type of reaction at some point in their lives, and it's up to them to learn how to deal effectively with such reactions."

Does that mean that teachers should be bullies so that students can learn to deal with bullies?

Of course all the students are going to have to deal with hostile people in their lives, (Harry's already had to deal with that for 10 years before he even gets to Hogwarts,) but Snape, as a teacher, is an authority figure. He's supposed to be providing a _good_ example.


Kasse - Aug 4, 2004 5:19 am (#1723 of 2956)
I do not think we can discount the fact that perhaps Snape's hatred of James colors how he remembers events that involved him. - Solitaire

... I have to disagree as somone (sorry but I can not remember who) has stated before if his memories were coloured by his hatered for James then surely Remus and Sirius would have mentioned something of the sort to Harry when he confronted them about it. If anything they only confirmed Snapes memory.


Gina R Snape - Aug 4, 2004 6:09 am (#1724 of 2956)
I think this memory isn't 'coloured' because it is from the pensieve and not from Snape's mouth. Snape wasn't telling a tale with his own interpretation. Harry was seeing a literal rendition of what happened. That seems to me to be how pensieve memories work from all that we've seen.

T Brightwater wrote: Does that mean that teachers should be bullies so that students can learn to deal with bullies?

Well, DD seems to think so. JKR has said in so many words that DD continues to hire certain professors because there are all kinds of lessons for children to learn (and how to deal with unpleasant people is one of them).


Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Aug 4, 2004 6:22 am (#1725 of 2956)
Well, DD seems to think so. JKR has said in so many words that DD continues to hire certain professors because there are all kinds of lessons for children to learn (and how to deal with unpleasant people is one of them). -- Gina R. Snape

To quote my mother *looks horrified*, "There are all sorts of people in this world and you're going to have to learn to deal with them sooner or later."

When I was a child, my mother never requested a certain teacher. Learning to deal with different types of people (yes, even the unpleasant ones) was a skill that needed to start early. She never threw me into the proverbial den of lions, but she didn't shelter me from life's little lessons.


T Brightwater - Aug 4, 2004 8:14 am (#1726 of 2956)
The main lesson to be learned from Snape is how utterly poisonous it is to hold a grudge.


Padfoot - Aug 4, 2004 8:22 am (#1727 of 2956)
Edited by Aug 4, 2004 9:23 am
Someone wondered if Snape likes teaching Potions. I think he does. He takes pride in his skills and thinks the subject is important enough for the students to learn. However we disagree with his behavior towards some of the students, his students are proficient in the subject. My guess is they will all pass their OWLS, including Neville, without embarrassing Snape. I think there is a lot more to Snape's teaching than Harry has mentioned. He notices the dramatic stuff happening in class, not the regular lectures/ instructions.

I also think the Pensieve records the events as they really happened. However if we see the same event in book 6 (or 7) from a different person's memory, we will know for sure. While Harry was wrong for invading Snape's privacy, I think it was good for him to see why Snape was so angry with James.


Weeny Owl - Aug 4, 2004 8:38 am (#1728 of 2956)
Does that mean that teachers should be bullies so that students can learn to deal with bullies?

Even though these books are fiction, I believe JKR has tried to make some things realistic. Nasty people happen. Nasty people happening in a world with giants, huge spiders, three-headed dogs, or words that can cause pain or death simply adds to the atmosphere in some ways.

Snape isn't nice, obviously, but if he were a chemistry teacher in a high school he wouldn't be worse than a lot of other teachers. I have had two teachers who were as bad as Snape, if not worse. One teacher in second grade had a way of dealing with students fighting. If one student hit another (even a mild smack on the arm), then the student who was hit was allowed to hit the offender as hard as he/she wanted in front of the entire class. If that teacher had witnessed Hermione slapping Draco, Draco would have been allowed to haul back and smack the living daylights out of Hermione in front of everyone even if he hit her so hard he gave her a concussion.

These kids have much more to fear than Snape's sarcasm or the deducting of points. Their lives are on the line, and while Snape may not be a teacher anyone would choose to have, he has protected them.


T Brightwater - Aug 4, 2004 8:43 am (#1729 of 2956)
I think Snape likes _making_ potions, and he seems to be good at it. I don't see anyone coming out of his class with a fascination for the subject because of his teaching. Students may work hard to avoid being yelled at, or to pass their exams, but the only person we see who really has any enthusiasm and feel for potion-making is Hermione, and how does Snape respond to her? He calls her an insufferable know-it-all. And yes, she can be, but if he really had the instincts of a teacher, she'd be his favorite student even if she isn't in his House.


Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 8:48 am (#1730 of 2956)
So you really think the Pensieve records things as they actually happened and not just as the person remembers them. Has JKR said this is how it works, or has she addressed that issue? I think it would be interesting to know, as it would shed a different light on things.

I certainly DO agree that Harry really overstepped a major boundary by looking into Snape's Pensieve. In fact, I see it as just about his worst violation in the entire series. I just wish Snape could put his attitude aside and talked to Harry more about James, because I think he could be in a position to really help Harry in a lot of ways. But he is so blinded by hatred that this is not possible.

I have a sister who is a major grudge-holder, something which makes it impossible to address certain topics with her, because she is "stuck" and has stopped maturing where those things are concerned. Like Snape, she resorts to childish behavior when they crop up in her life. It's sad, too, because she is unable to give wisdom to her own children on those issues. Everyone loses.

Solitaire


Padfoot - Aug 4, 2004 8:55 am (#1731 of 2956)
Edited by Aug 4, 2004 9:55 am
Regarding how the Pensieve works, we get to hear (read) conversations that Snape did not participate in during the memory. He at least acted as if he were reading over his exam questions and thinking about his answers, not listening to MWPP. If that was the case, then the Pensieve records what really happened, not what Snape remembers. Of course could have been actively listening and just pretending to be reading. But I really don't think so.

I am hoping that Snape and Harry will have that conversation where Harry apologizes for his eaves dropping.


T Brightwater - Aug 4, 2004 8:59 am (#1732 of 2956)
Solitaire, you used the very word I was thinking of for Snape. A therapist I know once said, "I've never seen any sick people in my office, but I've seen a lot of stuck ones."

Yes, that was a serious breach of courtesy, propriety, and basic human decency on Harry's part, and I hope he realizes it. Interestingly enough, that was also the closest he's come in the entire series to sympathizing with Snape. He was horrified at what his father and godfather had done and he knew exactly how Snape felt. That could have been the start of a real reconciliation, though it doesn't justify Harry's action. If Snape had said quietly, "Now you see why I don't think as highly of your father as some people do," I think that would have gone straight to the heart.


Lauren Anderson - Aug 4, 2004 9:25 am (#1733 of 2956)
I don't know how much has been discussed for I have only recently begun reading posts and this is my first, but I will state my opinion so that I may be shot down by others. Smile I believe that it's possible Snape may be the HBP. I don't know whether Snape as a vampire has been discussed (i haven't seen it)but that is what I think. After Snape assigns the DADA poper on werewolves, in Lupin's absence, Lupin retaliates by assigning one on vampires. Snape has always been dark and a little greasy. There was also a comment somewhere that Snape couldn't have gotten to the forest so quickly in less he turned into a bat or something. Also, in book 5, Ron makes the comment the Snape never ate with the order. Maybe Snape remains potions teacher so that he can make his own potion to keep him human, and able to be out in the daylight. I'm not sure about the HBP thing. It is possible that Snape's parents were one: a wizard,a dn the other a vampire...maybe a vampire king. And this is how we will find out more about Snape in the 6th book. I've just missed talking to people about HP. Take my ramblings for what they're worth.


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 4, 2004 9:54 am (#1734 of 2956)
I think JKR said that Snape wasn't a Vampire. She responded "I don't think so."

Someone made a point earlier that Snape should like Hermione because of her skills, despite the fact that she is in Gryffindor. Why doesn't he like her. He seems very prejudiced. He either hates Gryffindors or he hates Muggle Borns. He his also very mean to Neville, which makes me think he has a deeper, more profound hate for Gryffindors. Could this be as a result of the Marauders abuse.


Kasse - Aug 4, 2004 10:15 am (#1735 of 2956)
I can not see Snape being a vampire but I would bet that his animagus (if he is one) is a bat.

Also I can not wait to find out what his boggart and potronus (sp?)are - that would reveal alot about him, I hope we find out soon.

I can not remember have we ever heard of how Snape treats any Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff students? That could give us some more insight.


Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 10:22 am (#1736 of 2956)
Padfoot, I really DID get the idea that Snape was listening in (or trying to) on the conversation MWPP were having. Remember they were discussing the werewolf question on the final, and Wormtail had whined about missing some of the signs--causing James to point out how thick he was, considering he hung out with one every full moon. We know Snape was just itching to find out about Remus--and we know how that turned out.

I agree that Snape had the perfect opportunity to talk to Harry just then--because Harry was horrified at his father's behavior--but he blew it out of anger and (probably) humiliation. I also think Harry owes Snape an apology for that trespass. I wonder if he will ever reach a point where he can make it.

What's interesting about James is that Remus's memory and understanding of him seems to be clearer than either Sirius' or Snape's. Sirius sees the hero, Snape sees the arrogant twit. Remus seems to see a more human, realistic view of James ... a sort of "melding" of the two extremes.

Lauren, I have thought this about Snape, as well. It is hard not to jump to that conclusion when he is described in more than a couple of places as "swooping around the castle at night." He does always seem to be out and about at night, doesn't he?

Remembering the incident with Harry, Krum, and Mr. Crouch--and Snape's interference when Harry was trying to reach DD--Ron and Harry are discussing it later between themselves. Ron asks if Snape could have beaten Harry and DD back to the spot. Harry answers, "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something." Ron says he wouldn't put it past him.

I thought it might be possible for him to be a vampire ... or at least a bat animagus. Someone shot me down on the Vampire theory, saying it had been denied by JKR. But I thought it was good.

Solitaire


septentrion - Aug 4, 2004 10:46 am (#1737 of 2956)
Lauren Anderson, you may like the "Snape-Deveroux grudge match" on the fanfiction forum Wink


Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2004 11:22 am (#1738 of 2956)
Every time I read the series. Severus reminds me of Inspector Javert from Les Misrables. In that he is so set in his ways. That change comes ever so slowly if at all unless it occurs under exceptional circumstances.


Padfoot - Aug 4, 2004 11:31 am (#1739 of 2956)
I sure hope Snape's life doesn't end up the same way Javert's did!


TomProffitt - Aug 4, 2004 1:20 pm (#1740 of 2956)
Someone commented that we didn't know how Severus treated the Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff students.

I don't have anything to go on, but how he treats the Griffyndors and Slytherins.

I submit that he treats the students as though they are the opposite of the traits of their houses.

Neville he treats like he is a coward. He treats Harry as though he is self-absorbed and arrogant.

He seems to treat the Slytherins with respect and courtesy, rather the opposite of how Slytherins view the world. Not they have no use for these traits, more that it is feigned respect.

Therefore I suspect that Severus treats the Ravenclaws as though they were stupid and ignorant, and the Hufflepuffs as if they were lazy and selfish.

That's reading rather a lot between the lines, but it seems in keeping with his character.


Hollywand - Aug 4, 2004 1:30 pm (#1741 of 2956)
I wanted to add a very interesting suggestion put forward on another thread: That the Snape/Harry pensieve issues are a microcosm of the whole plot line of the Order of the Phoenix. In this way, Harry makes many of the mistakes his father made in being over confident and a bit brash. Sirius still has not learned humility, and pays a very dear price for it, and Severus still has a major score to settle with the entire world. Voldemort invades Harry's thoughts and vice versa. A sort of conscious/subconscious theme.

Even though Harry and Severus are angered by the event, I do think there is some significant movement toward compassion, and would bet that Dumbledore planned the event knowing the likely outcome. Eventually, their attitudes will soften a bit.

Well, especially now that Snape and Harry both have flaming scars and a common enemy.....watch your back, gentlemen!


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 4, 2004 1:49 pm (#1742 of 2956)
I think that Harry will "...never..." forgive Snape, despite what Dumbledore tells him. I think Snape will let it pass, probably because Dumbledore will tell him to, but I can't help but get the feeling that an instance will occur that requires Harry to trust Snape, and to his downfall, he won't.


Hollywand - Aug 4, 2004 1:53 pm (#1743 of 2956)
Wanna bet a plate of Stoat sandwiches on that Mr. Reid? ;-)


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 4, 2004 2:00 pm (#1744 of 2956)
Better not. I'm just toying around with different theories at the moment, however, Harry has never liked Snape and I think that hate has just intensified over Sirius' death.

ON THE OTHER HAND, (see, I'm not very decisive) JKR said something on the lines of Harry putting his personal issues aside to help take his place in the second war. Could Snape be one of his issues. What do you think Hollywand?


Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 2:13 pm (#1745 of 2956)
I'm betting Hollywand wants YOU to eat those stoat sandwiches! ;-)


Hollywand - Aug 4, 2004 2:18 pm (#1746 of 2956)
I think we should listen to the Sorting Hat. If the houses don't unite, they will crumble from within. This is why it's critical for Snape, Harry, Draco and probably Filch and everybody else to unify.

I think that's Dumbledore's ultimate task, to bring the houses together. I'm hoping Severus will shine in his own right. There will always be Slytherins in the world, and one must learn how to respect and work with them though one may not agree with their more calculating motives, but, alas, that's reality, what am I saying, we are talking about wizards here, but I think you get my drift.

I respect Severus because Minerva and Albus do, and expect Harry to. I don't agree with the way Severus treats his students, especially poor little Hermione, who gets sucker punched by the guy every time. It's no sin to be well read and muggle-born, so Snape's prejudices only reflect poorly on him. I hope Hermione turns the tables on Severus at some point, but he always has the "points from Gryffindor" bludgeon to his them with.I think a hard rain's going to fall for poor little Hermione in the next book, and the muggle Dursleys. Harry has some more hurting ahead.

Snape also gives Rowling a counterpoint in a literary fashion to show us another perspective on Harry for depth and contrast. Also, haven't you ever had someone charge you with being arrogant just because they felt competitive with you? It's a human weakness.

Someone noted earlier in the thread that when Severus sees that Harry is bitten in the leg by the dog, he asks Harry more about his experience, rather than humiliating him. I think it's a significant detail; a little sprout of compassion poking its furitive head above the dirt. I hope it will grow.

I will be devestated if Snape betrays Hogwarts, but have steeled myself for that possibility. Isn't this an awesome story to be caught up within?

By the way, I really like the way you are considering all sides, well done! And if I do win, you get to eat the stoat sandwiches, ok?

All the best, Hollywand WELL DONE SOLITARE!!!! ;-)


Gina R Snape - Aug 4, 2004 2:20 pm (#1747 of 2956)
I'll pass on the stoat sandwiches.

But Tom, I think your idea is a brilliant one! He probably calls every Ravenclaw an insufferable know-it-all!

As a side note, Hermione is not necessarily the one you want as a teacher's pet. She has a way of disrupting things unintentionally. Sometimes teachers ask questions to get students thinking, or to see who did the reading. When Hermione jumps the gun and gives the answer to a question, she spoils this tactic. She also spoils any chance of Snape teasing out answers from students, getting them to draw connexions and conclusions--to think basically. If Hermione gives the answer away out of turn, the students do not have the opportunity to think for themselves.

Just a...thought.


T Brightwater - Aug 4, 2004 2:25 pm (#1748 of 2956)
There are ways to deal with that - "Yes, Hermione, I know _you_ know; I want to find out if anyone else does." It lets the know-it-all know she is appreciated while still serving the original purpose of the question. I remember getting something like that myself a time or two. :-)


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 4, 2004 2:40 pm (#1749 of 2956)
Don't get me wrong. I think Snape wants what's best for the WW, and that means he has to help and protect Harry - he has done this many times before. That does not mean he has to like Harry. Harry, on the other hand needs to realize that Snape is an ally - an unusual one - but an ally nevertheless. OotP finished with Harry loathing Snape. I did not get the impression that Harry fully realized that the fate of the WW was in his hands. But he will have a few weeks to reflect on that, so here's hoping it will sink in.

Based on Harry's behavior from OotP, Harry is too blind to notice when someone is trying to help him. However, Harry's attitude develops and changes in each book - perhaps he will become more open and learn to listen and in time, respect Snape. At this point, it is open to suggestion what Harry's attitude will be and until the book is released, there is going to be hundreds of different theories. CURRENTLY, I think it is past Harry to trust Snape - I think Snape on the other hand is more mature. I hope, for Harry's sake that he matures as a person (I think he will) and not blame Snape for Sirius' death, as it was NOT HIS FAULT.

On that matter of Snape betraying Hogwarts, Dumbledore trusts Snape, and if we cannot believe Dumbledore about this, then there is no point trusting him with everything else. His intelligence surpresses everybody elses and we have to put faith in him.

Sorry about the length and I don't really fancy Stoat sandwiches, but Stoat sausages sounds quite good.


Gina R Snape - Aug 4, 2004 2:52 pm (#1750 of 2956)
Ummmm, you do know what a stoat is, don't you?
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Richard !!!Reid - Aug 4, 2004 2:53 pm (#1751 of 2956)
Yeah, but perhaps my humor is to strange


timrew - Aug 4, 2004 2:57 pm (#1752 of 2956)
A 1/4 pound stoatburger with cheese and fries sound good.....

I wonder if McDonald's would be interested in the recipe.....?

But I think we're wandering into the 'Harry Potter Themed Recipes Thread', here.

<------goes off to iron hands........


Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 3:36 pm (#1753 of 2956)
Before I begin ... stoat pate on a cracker, anyone?

Gina, I believe you mentioned that students like Hermione CAN be a little difficult in class. This is true. I had a male version of Hermione in my 6th grade social studies class this last year. He was terribly bright (if a bit socially immature), but he was so vocal he tended to intimidate the quieter, less confident students.

That said, Snape could handle Hermione a bit differently. Gentle humor usually works wonders on kids that age--if they know you really like them (I guess that's the difference between Snape and me). You might even be surprised to know that some Hermiones will even begin to help the Nevilles earn "participation points" in class. Actually, we DO see Hermione helping Neville from time to time ... although she is usually punished for it.

Frankly, had I been Snape, I'd probably have given Hermione some "enrichment activities" in potions, if she felt up to doing them. Snape should have recognized Hermione's abilities and encouraged them. She stands up for him more than once in the saga, and he could do worse than have one of Harry's best friends be his solid supporter.

Solitaire


Gina R Snape - Aug 4, 2004 4:00 pm (#1754 of 2956)
Yes, yes, he could do all those things. But then he wouldn't be Snape!


Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 4:34 pm (#1755 of 2956)
Very true. **heading off to kitchen to make Gina a stoat sandwich**


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 4, 2004 4:43 pm (#1756 of 2956)
Ok, I'll bite, what's a stoat?


Kasse - Aug 4, 2004 4:44 pm (#1757 of 2956)
Thank you Twinkling - I was just about to ask, I have no clue either.


ShelterGirl - Aug 4, 2004 4:48 pm (#1758 of 2956)
It's a weasel.

laughing*

It really is. It's something like a ferret. And I wouldn't imagine they'd be tasty.

I love reading this thread...

Julie


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 4, 2004 4:50 pm (#1759 of 2956)
YUCK!!!!!! And I'm owned by 9 ferrets, I guess my choice of words was really ironic, (I'll bite).

Going to have a butterbeer on that one!


Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 4:50 pm (#1760 of 2956)
Twinkling ... perhaps this part of the thread might help.

Stoat

I hope this works!


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 4, 2004 4:52 pm (#1761 of 2956)
The link worked, but it didn't help the weasels doing their war dance in my stomach now :-)

Remind me not to eat at Hagrid's.


Hollywand - Aug 4, 2004 4:58 pm (#1762 of 2956)
Ok, since I started the stoat, it's a kind of weasel, and Hagrid tries to serve these little dainties to the trio at tea. Hmmph. Kids nowadays.

Who knew I'd be crying with laughter reading the Snape thread?

Sorry to distract and Jo, if you see this, we are having a wonderful time with your words!

Back to Severe Severus. Many people say that they are "holding it all in". They feel if they cry one tear they will cry a bucket. Little do they know that if they have a good cry, it just washes you clean and you can go on to something else. The paradox to me about Snape is that his worst memory is his humiliation. But it doesn't really occur to him that he deals out humiliation to others all the time, so....

And I do think Harry is always, the trio is, always ready to convict Severus for a crime he hasn't committed. They've been doing this for years now, and need to reflect on their stilted (or stoated) attitude.

Richard, I assume you mean Dumbledore's intelligence surpasses and not surpresses everyone elses. I just need a little clarification, because if you think DD is supressing---some suggest he is evil. I will end up in St. Mungo's for sure if DD is evil, and will definitely be looking in Bolivia for a certain author....

Thanks for a fun and enlightening discussion!!


contess lillein asend - Aug 4, 2004 5:59 pm (#1763 of 2956)
Hollywand:

What about "necessary evil?" How far would DD go to win? No one is suggesting that DD is totally evil, but maybe the good of the many outweighs the good of the few? Though his love for Harry maybe changing this viewpoint.

I am still looking for the shape of Harry's nose. I know I've seen it somewhere....


Hollywand - Aug 4, 2004 6:10 pm (#1764 of 2956)
I've thought of this Contess, and I believe that was Dumbledore's dilemma at the end of the Order of the Phoenix. With both wizards in Harry's body, Dumbledore, in the interests of the Wizarding World, should have killed the Harry/Voldy entity right then and there. In that instant, the two I think were vulnerable enough to be killed outright and I'm sure Dumbledore had the power to do it. I've heard others argue that Harry must kill Voldy, but if DD had killed them both right then it would have fulfilled the prophecy. Harry's death would have caused Voldemorts.

Why is Dumbledore weeping? He couldn't bring himself to kill the Voldy/Harry entity because he loved Harry too much. Harry misses this subtle distinction in the explanation. Dumbledore spared Harry's life, and accepted that others may die because of it. A heavy burden to bear. This is why Dumbledore takes out the silver instrument, and makes sure that they are "in essence divided" . The appearance of the two headed snake affirms Dumbledore's question, and the reason for his grim look of satisfaction.

Here's another instance where Albus withheld information from Harry. Should he have said, "You know, I had an opportunity to save everyone else a lot of grief back there in the Ministry of Magic, but...."

I'm hoping that Severus Snape will be the one to Sever the Snake.

Go Severus.

Dobby knows knot were Harry's nose goes but Dobby thinks his nose is comfortably resting beneath those beautiful eyes...... ;-)


contess lillein asend - Aug 4, 2004 7:03 pm (#1765 of 2956)
I think whatever DD's plan was involved the sacrifice of Harry's life. Now that DD loves him, he has to find another way. Maybe another dose of protection from another sacrifice in the name of love.

Maybe this is how Harry gets his new pet? Here Fawlkes!


Hollywand - Aug 4, 2004 7:41 pm (#1766 of 2956)
I just don't see Dumbledore having designs to kill Harry. Fawkes, I think is beyond the power of the wizards. Fawkes chooses his master. The very best leaders must win the hearts of their subjects. Despots can certainly dominate, but not without a considerable amount of struggle. DD isn't materialistic, or jealous of others' powers. I don't see his motivation for setting Harry up for a fall. Further, Rowling wouldn't do this to her young readers----finding out that the core trusted mentor is undermining your very existence? Just don't think she'd do that to the kids. That's Stephen King, not JK Rowling.


Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Aug 4, 2004 8:25 pm (#1767 of 2956)
Although I find these last few posts interesting, I think they belong on the Dumbledore or Harry threads. How about reposting and continuing the discussion on one of those. It's worth exploring more fully.


penguin patronus - Aug 5, 2004 5:22 pm (#1768 of 2956)
Hey! I just read something that J.K.R. said. Someone asked her what Snape's Boggart and Patronus forms were, but she said it would give too much away if she told us what they were. I wonder what they are... Any thoughts?


Solitaire - Aug 5, 2004 5:37 pm (#1769 of 2956)
Oooh! Nice question, Penguin. I've often wondered that myself. I'm often thought his Patronus would take the form of a snake or reptile of some sort ... or perhaps a bat. His Boggart? Much tougher ... Voldemort? James Potter? "Prongs"? Hard to say ...

Solitaire


Gina R Snape - Aug 5, 2004 6:00 pm (#1770 of 2956)
I like the idea that Snape is either an owl (really good for spying) or a panther (shiny black hair and all...).


Kasse - Aug 5, 2004 6:30 pm (#1771 of 2956)
Gina are you talking about his his animagus (assumig he has one)?

Solitaire - a reptile, that sound about right.


Solitaire - Aug 5, 2004 6:37 pm (#1772 of 2956)
Kasse, I can't help it ... I see something "slithery" for Snape--a giant cobra, perhaps. I suppose the panther might work, too, as it is a quiet, predatory, treacherous animal. The bat keeps flapping around my brain because of Ron and Harry's comment about it and the references to Snape "swooping" around the castle at night.


Weeny Owl - Aug 5, 2004 7:37 pm (#1773 of 2956)
His Boggart is probably Neville Longbottom in a Potions class.

I could definitely see his Animagus form as a bat.


Solitaire - Aug 5, 2004 8:28 pm (#1774 of 2956)
... or Neville's grandmother's hat! hehe Great bat, weeny owl!


TomProffitt - Aug 6, 2004 4:08 am (#1775 of 2956)
Severus' boggart has got to be He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. He is too smart for it not to be.

On a lighter note, I see his animagus as being the more annoying of the two chameleons in the US Budweiser commercials.


Kasse - Aug 6, 2004 5:06 am (#1776 of 2956)
I agree (infact I had stated it sometime earlier on this thread) that if he does have an animagus is is most probably a bat.

I do ot think he is scared enough of Voldemort for that to be his boggart, just my oppinion.

Solitaire something "slithery" sounds just like Snape.


T Brightwater - Aug 6, 2004 5:20 am (#1777 of 2956)
He's had enough contact with Voldemort that I think he's cautiously confident that he can deal with him. It's my impression that the boggart becomes something you feel helpless against.

I think Snape's boggart would be - himself. Perhaps he would see a weeping child, or an adolescent in the throes of a hopeless crush, but in any case a Severus more vulnerable than we've ever seen.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 6, 2004 5:32 am (#1778 of 2956)
I agree with Brightwater, Snape's boggart would possibly be himself "hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of greying underpants."


Chemyst - Aug 6, 2004 5:45 am (#1779 of 2956)
Good thought, Tom. A chameleon fits nicely with the what-are-Snape's-true-colors spy traits.


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 6, 2004 8:18 am (#1780 of 2956)
Im really intersested to know what anybodys thoughts are as far as where Snape will end up in HBP and book 7. Do you think he is going to continue down the path of Harrys most loathed teacher but stay on the good? Do you think it is possible that he slips back to the dark side, possibly after Harry irritates him to the very end? Or maybe him and Harry will have some sort of mutual respect eventually, some "end-of-the-book" event that brings them together and makes them realize for once that they are fighting for the same side, and that it is not Harry's fault that his dad could be a bit on the mean side.

My personal feelings? Well, I can only hope that he and Harry will become allies, even if it is a hidden respect or even friendship. Snape has been one of my favorite charactors for his ability to remain absolutly cool and calm at all times (well, besides his outburst during Occulemency lessons, which Harry basically deserved). He also just has this air about him that draws me in, his evil yet not really evil premace, his mastering of the dark arts, yet his self-control not to use them for his own gain. Alright, thats really all I have to say, but what are all you other Snape fans thinking?


TomProffitt - Aug 6, 2004 8:37 am (#1781 of 2956)
As much as I dislike Snape, I do not believe that he will turn on the Order of the Phoenix.

Unlike Pettigrew, Severus made a choice to work for the side we call "good." Pettigrew was intimidated into abandoning his friends. If Severus was the type to be intimidated, surely the fate of Regulus Black is enough to convince him that He-Who-Must-Not-Named should not be crossed.

Severus and Harry are like dogs and cats, they may eventually be able to work together civily, but they will never like each other. It is questionable if they will achieve mutual respect.

And of course, Severus can never become "good," because, in his own mind at least, is already good.


Elanor - Aug 6, 2004 9:07 am (#1782 of 2956)
Hi Fluviusi Saepio (great name by the way !) !

Snape is one of my favourite characters too, because he is really complex. He is, without doubt, not the most cheerful one, but, when we'll know his complete story, I'm sure we'll understand him far better. As far as we already know, I see him as a marked man (physically and morally), a man who has really suffered, haunted by his own memory, bitter and unsociable certainly, but strong, resolute and reliable. (well, I think I must be a Snape fan!)

And my hopes are just like yours !


Padfoot - Aug 6, 2004 9:25 am (#1783 of 2956)
Edited by Aug 6, 2004 10:26 am
Snape's Boggart: His dad. After all, that is a childhood memory that was scary for him.

Snape's Patronus: A ferret! LOL. No really it would be either a panther or a shark.

Snape's Animagus: (Yes I think he is one) A Hawk. It's a bird of prey, which may not be the biggest or the most beautiful, but is very noble and cunning.

Im really interested to know what anybodys thoughts are as far as where Snape will end up in HBP and book 7. -Fluviusi Saepio

I think he will be a big help for Harry by helping him develop stronger skills and provide him with useful information. I hope he does not die, but if he does, I see it at the end of book 7. He will remain on the good side and eventually I think Harry will truly understand this.


Kasse - Aug 6, 2004 9:47 am (#1784 of 2956)
I too can not wait until the time that Harry and Snape accept each other and come to a mutual understanding of one another I am sure this will happen, most probably in the last book. Snape is a mysterious and complex character I do not think we will discover all there is to him in HBP.

However like Tom put it I doubt that they will ever like each other.


Weeny Owl - Aug 6, 2004 10:18 am (#1785 of 2956)
Perhaps Snape's Animagus form is a vulture. There was the vulture hat he was wearing when he appeared during the boggart scene as Neville's Gran, and then there was the cracker during Christmas. Vultures do have rather large beaks, after all.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 6, 2004 11:18 am (#1786 of 2956)
LOL Weeny! I like that picture!

The shark suits him as well Padfoot!


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 6, 2004 11:19 am (#1787 of 2956)
Hmmm... I like the guessing game of patronus/boggart/animagus, so let me have a crack at it....

Boggart~~Id say that both his father, and himself at a weaker point in his life are good ones. Do I even dare (Dare, dare!) to guess that maybe it could be James or Sirius? Well, probably not, maybe back during his hogwarts years, but Im sure the fear he may have had towards them has well been developed into hatred.

Patronus~~I love the panther idea, strong and cunning, silent and dark as night. I believe that would definatly be a good one.

Animagus~~ (the thought had never crossed my mind, but come to think of it, I do believe he could be animagus.) Again I have to agree with ideas of those already spoken. Id say hawk (even vulture) but definatly a bird of some sort (that nose, the "swooping actions") or at least a flying creature (bat).

To Elanor~~Thanks for the praise on my name! I did hope it didnt looke like I was trying too hard. :-)


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 6, 2004 1:17 pm (#1788 of 2956)
I also think it could be James. I'm wondering if Snape ever had anything to do with the potter's death, and is afraid that Harry or maybe even Dumbledore finding out - I'm not saying it is anything evil.


contess lillein asend - Aug 6, 2004 1:23 pm (#1789 of 2956)
Maybe that is why he is on his second chance with DD


T Brightwater - Aug 6, 2004 1:33 pm (#1790 of 2956)
I don't think Snape's boggart could be James or Sirius; I think he hates them (still) but was never really afraid of them. Snape's father was another one that occurred to me.

Maybe his patronus is Lily Evans. :-)


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 6, 2004 1:37 pm (#1791 of 2956)
Perhaps Snape did to James what Harry did to Snape. Did not trust him.


Padfoot - Aug 6, 2004 2:15 pm (#1792 of 2956)
Maybe his patronus is Lily Evans

I wonder if a patronus could be a person? I think Harry thought his might be a Hagrid type before he was his was a stag.


Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Aug 6, 2004 3:42 pm (#1793 of 2956)
Boggart--Voldemort

Patronus--Harry (ahhhhhhh!)

Animagus--Mrs. Norris


Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 4:09 pm (#1794 of 2956)
LOL Lupin at Snape's animagus being Mrs. Norris! It would fit ... think of all the times Ron has said, "Let's just kick her, shall we?" heeeeee I can't help it ... I still think it's a bat. If I'm wrong, I'll treat you to a stoat sandwich! ;-)

Solitaire


Chemyst - Aug 6, 2004 5:43 pm (#1795 of 2956)
To answer Fluviusi; thoughts on where Snape will end up...
Book 6 will be more of the same with a little more background added. In Book 7, Harry will be in a crisis situation and have to make a choice on whether or not to trust Snape. In the end, he will, but only after something else goes wrong first. The choice to trust will be key to his vanquishing Voldemort. Harry and Snape still won't be best buddies, but they will come to deeply respect each other's abilities, and even to admit "He's got style."
And his boggart - I think Tomoé said this first - a dead Harry.


Round Pink Spider - Aug 6, 2004 6:50 pm (#1796 of 2956)
I haven't stopped by here before -- you know, I think Snape was deliberately hanging close to James, Sirius, Peter and Remus in that memory Harry saw. The moment they noticed him, he packed up to leave. I wonder if, with the Legilimency/Occlumency thing, Snape picked up being an animagus from them! What kind of animal? Bat, definitely, with the way he stays in the dark, and all those bat jokes!

Also, if you look at the timing, I'd be willing to bet that Snape left Voldemort because he found out about the traitor among the Order shadowing the Potters. He owed a life debt to James, so he tried to repay it by warning DD about a traitor among James' friends. But James was "too arrogant" to believe he could have been mistaken about one of his friends. In the end, Snape couldn't save James because James wouldn't believe Snape was more trustworthy than one of "his friends" (more bitterness). I'd almost expect Harry to have to repay this by trusting Snape in the end (at least warily).

Boggart? I think at this point it'd be Harry under Voldie's control.


Ann - Aug 6, 2004 7:18 pm (#1797 of 2956)
My first post in this thread, too. I can't pretend to have read all 1796 posts, but I've read a lot of them, and done some searches, so I hope it's okay to post an idea. It seems to me that most of the discussion of the occlumency sessions has centered around Harry's reaction to what he learns about Snape's childhood. I was reading all the sessions together last night, and what struck me was that Snape was actually pleased (though disconcerted) when Harry penetrated his own memories--because he'd managed to resist the charm. What really makes him angry (to Harry's surprise) is when Harry doesn't resist, and he sees scenes from Harry's past. I think Snape very actively doesn't want to have to sympathize with Harry, or see him as different from James, and a lot more of his anger comes from that than from his annoyance at Harry's failure to practice and learn occlumency.

This denial of any potential for sympathy seems to me to bode ill for our hopes of their ever coming to an understanding. But perhaps I'm wrong--if they spend more time together, and if Harry apologizes and shows Snape that he is taking a somewhat more rational view of his father, there may be hope.


Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 8:27 pm (#1798 of 2956)
Round Pink Spider, I REALLY like your theory about why Snape left the DEs ... the life debt. It makes perfect sense, as does the idea that James would not believe him. But perhaps it was because the accusation was vague, the specific culprit not identified. Snape couldn't have known the traitor was really Peter, because he continued to say it was Sirius in PoA. And if he DID know it truly was Peter and planned to hand Sirius over to the Dementors anyway ... Ouch ... Evil!

I can see Harry eventually coming to a grudging trust of Snape, but I think it will take some extraordinary knowledge about him (such as you theorize) or even the cost of Snape's life before he is able to acknowledge that he has been wrong.

Ann, I like your idea here, too: I think Snape very actively doesn't want to have to sympathize with Harry, or see him as different from James, and a lot more of his anger comes from that than from his annoyance at Harry's failure to practice and learn occlumency.

I think you are right, because from the get-go, Snape seems determined to squash Harry down, before he even knows him. In that respect, he is a lot like Uncle Vernon saying they were going to squash magic out of Harry. Snape's dislike of and anger at Harry seem out of proportion and without foundation most of the time.

The ONLY time I really think Snape has truly had a right to be angry with Harry--and Harry owes him an apology--was when Harry violated his Pensieve. I find that a HUGE breach of ethics on Harry's part. Bad move--although it could lead to Harry's having, as you say, a more rational view of his father and Sirius.

Solitaire


Emiko - Aug 7, 2004 12:32 pm (#1799 of 2956)
Phew! Everyone's been soooo busy. So, here's my attempt at commenting on the hundred and some posts since I've been gone:

Concerning who Voldemort mentioned that fateful night in the cemetary... I like the idea that Snape wasn't even mentioned (although I find it hard to believe Bagman was a DE, maybe it's someone else we're going to find out about...!) But I still can't understand how LV wouldn't know that Snape turned traitor BEFORE he was vanquished! Dumbledore announced it to the jury/court at Karakoff's trial, others would still know (as people seemed to know about Lucius Malfoy) that Snape was a DE and unless there was some justification, they'd hate him (he doesn't have Lucius' money). And would Voldemort actually accept someone who betrayed him while he was gaining power, not after he "left" like the others? I mean, how could he ever trust Snape? Surely he knows about the Occulemens thing?

2. Safia- I really like the Harry's lilly-green eyes having an effect on Snape, but I'm a Snape/Lilly-ship person!

3. I tried to say, a long long time ago, that Snape called Lilly a mudblood because he was humiliated, and Shelter just emphasized my ideas more eloquently. I can't see Snape saying that just to hurt James, because it didn't really hurt him, it just made him angry.

4. I agree w/ Gina about Snape and Lupin both saying the same thing to Harry in reprimanding him about Hogsmeade, Snape just doesn't understand how to "make Harry feel bad", since, aside from the pensieve session, all he's done is make him angry- (now that I think about it, kinda like he did w/ james)

5. I really like the point about Snape not wanting to sympathizing with Harry, it really makes sense, and where'd Snape be if he didn't have his hate? I see some major re-evaluation of reality in Snape (and harry's) future. But, I think that he does sympathize, or, at least, is stopping thinking of him as James beccause of the glimpses of Harry's childhood he had. Although, it might take a while (all summer?) for that to sink in.

Sorry that got rather long, but I'm really enjoying the conversations. Oh, and boggart: dead (controlled?) Harry, Patronus: what if it was a Stag, like harry's? and Animagus: (although I don't think he is one) I like the hawk idea, although I see a kestrel too.


Solitaire - Aug 7, 2004 2:15 pm (#1800 of 2956)
I disagree, Emiko, about Snape not knowing how to make Harry feel bad. I think Snape knows exactly how to make Harry feel bad. He is a master at it. What he doesn't know how to do is impress upon Harry the seriousness of what he's done. Snape is a lot like the Dursleys in many ways. He continually grinds Harry under his heel and tries to make him less than he is. He also seems to take delight in bullying Harry in a way he was unable to do with James. James was a peer and could fight back. Harry is a student and just has to "take it" or be further punished. Snape is a bully.

Lupin's people skills and compassion--as well as his genuine love for James and Lily--allow him to address Harry in a much more effective way. Unlike Snape, he doesn't want to humiliate Harry or make him feel bad. He does want to make him understand the seriousness of what he has been doing: By risking his safety, Harry is making a mockery of his parents' sacrifice. That realization has far more of an impact on Harry than any of Snape's "humilation therapy."

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Ann - Aug 7, 2004 5:19 pm (#1801 of 2956)
I wasn't posting during the earlier discussions of Snape and the other missing Death Eaters in the GoF graveyard scene, but it seems to me that Voldemort, who was in close communication with Crouch Jr./Moody, would have known that Snape and Karakoff and Bagman, and probably some of his other well-placed DEs were at Hogwarts watching the Triwizard final. And, having undoubtedly read Hogwarts: A History (hasn't everyone?), he would surely know, as everyone knows, that (all together now) you can't apparate from Hogwarts! So he wouldn't have expected any of them. I've always assumed the ones mentioned in that roll call were just random other DEs, as an indication to the DEs present of what is going to happen to traitors, now. But perhaps you guys are right, and he was musing on them, even though he wouldn't have expected them if they were loyal.

As for how Snape got back into Voldemort's good graces after Dumbledore's public testimony in his favor...well, all Snape had to do was convince Voldemort that he was lying to Dumbledore, not Voldemort. I suspect Voldemort is so vain about his ability to detect lies that Snape could do it--everyone says he's very good. And even Harry could resist his imperius curse. And Voldemort has always underestimated Dumbledore. Equally, he has always underestimated the power of love, and I wonder if it might actually be Dumbledore's love and caring for Snape (giving him the Potions position? And a second chance?) that is the bond. Voldemort would certainly find that hard to understand. (Unless, of course, Snape is lying to Dumbledore!)


Solitaire - Aug 7, 2004 5:25 pm (#1802 of 2956)
Are we positive that Snape HAS gotten back into Voldemort's good graces and is acting as a double agent ... or is this just speculation? I've always thought that Snape was the DE Voldemort was referring to as having left him forever.

Solitaire


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 7, 2004 5:34 pm (#1803 of 2956)
Of course we're not positive. There's no good reason to think definitively that Snape's a traitor (though given JKR's apparent dislike of anti-heroes, I wouldn't be surprised).


Ann - Aug 7, 2004 5:54 pm (#1804 of 2956)
Snape did agree with Harry when he said that it was Snape's job to hear what Voldemort was telling his Death Eaters, and of course there was that big fuss over his arrival at 12GP to report. Presumably, therefore, he is back among the Death Eaters and giving reports to each (either?) side about what goes on with the other. But of course, Snape alone knows which side is getting the straight dope, if either(!) is. I suppose he could be playing both sides against the middle, and waiting to see which way the wind blows and the curse plays out (that would be very Slytherin, wouldn't it?); but when Dumbledore is that sure, I think it's unlikely that his heart isn't with the Order.


Solitaire - Aug 7, 2004 6:11 pm (#1805 of 2956)
As for how Snape got back into Voldemort's good graces after Dumbledore's public testimony in his favor...well, all Snape had to do was convince Voldemort that he was lying to Dumbledore, not Voldemort. I suspect Voldemort is so vain about his ability to detect lies that Snape could do it--everyone says he's very good.

Luke, the above makes it sound (to me, at least) as though it is being considered a fait accompli. I'm not sure we can make that leap just yet.

We know from Chapter 36, p. 713 (US) in GoF that Dumbledore has set Snape a difficult task. "Severus ... you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready ... if you are prepared ..." We are not told what exactly it is that Snape is going to do, but his response would indicate that it is not something easy for him.

I sometimes wonder if it involves transforming himself into someone Voldemort trusts, in order to get information ... or if he is perhaps being sent as an envoy to the Vampires (since I have always suspected Snape might be one), much as Hagrid is sent to the Giants. Just musings ...

Solitaire


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 7, 2004 7:02 pm (#1806 of 2956)
Once again, the chances of Smape being a vampire are low due to JKR quotes. Still a possibility, though.

Yes, the task Snape has to perform is one which I can't guess. It's probably not going back to the DEs, as I am pretty sure that Snape is the one Voldemort knows has left him forever. So, excluding vamps and returning to the DEs, what could Snape have to do?


MzWhizz123 - Aug 7, 2004 7:11 pm (#1807 of 2956)
I got the impression that the task DD asks Snape to do is so dangerous that there is a very good chance Snape will not survive.

Could this be in exchange for DD giving him a second chance, and vouching for him?

If Snape was aware of the probable consequence of his mission, I would think that his attitude toward those whose involvement was less permanent would, indeed, be rather acerbic.


Solitaire - Aug 7, 2004 7:37 pm (#1808 of 2956)
Oh, Luke! I did SO have my heart set on Snape being a vampire! boohoo Either that or a bat animagus ... after all of those comments about him "swooping" around the castle at night and Ron's speculation about him being a bat.

I've considered the double agent thing before and thought it seemed pretty likely. But I can't help remembering that Voldemort was living in Quirrell's head at least during Harry's first year at Hogwarts, in which case he would certainly have heard any of the conversations Snape and Quirrell had during that year. Remember how Quirrell himself talked about it to Harry down by the Mirror of Erised? It just seems unlikely that he would be able to fool Voldemort after that.

Solitaire


Ann - Aug 7, 2004 8:01 pm (#1809 of 2956)
It seems unlikely to me that Quirrell/Voldemort told Snape that he was trying to get the stone for Voldemort. (Remember, this was after Snape had been publicly exposed as being on Dumbledore's side, so they would presumably have been cautious.) Snape could argue later that he had thought Quirrell was trying to get it for himself--perhaps to become a new seriously evil overlord, and Snape was protecting it so (a) when Voldemort returned, he wouldn't have to fight an evil rival as well as Harry Potter; and (b) so the stone would be available when Voldemort returned and needed it.

I'm sure Snape is spying on the Death Eaters at this point--it is clearly obvious even to Harry--though as I say, I am a bit dubious about his loyalty. And it seems most likely that he's doing it under his own identity. After all, who knows what the Dark Mark would do as he transformed into someone else? It just seems unnecessarily complicated. And if Voldemort cast off all the Death Eaters who had denied him to save themselves (like Malfoy), he'd be down to the Azkaban ones, and those might not be in the best shape to serve him, whereas whatever else Snape is, he is a very powerful and skilled wizard.


Solitaire - Aug 7, 2004 10:28 pm (#1810 of 2956)
I don't think Quirrell told Snape he was trying to get the stone. I never said he did. I said that Quirrell had mentioned the conversations he and Snape had had. Remember he told Harry how Snape suspected him, followed him, tried to frighten him. I just did not go into detail.

Remember that Quirrell told Harry it was HE who had tried to kill him that day during the Quidditch game, while Snape was muttering his countercurse to stop him.

I agree that Snape is suspicious. He may be a Double Agent ... and he may even be Voldemort's agent. I'm trying to find the passage to which you refer in a previous post: "Snape did agree with Harry when he said that it was Snape's job to hear what Voldemort was telling his Death Eaters." Can you point me to it?

I know Snape tells Sirius that Lucius spotted him as Padfoot on the train platform. How did he know? That to me is one indicator that he is at least in fairly close contact with Malfoy ... but then he is Draco's father. I suppose it is also possible that as Malfoy managed to evade Azkaban by claiming the Imperious curse and now seeing the error of his ways, he might believe Snape was just "pretending" to have returned to the "good side," too. Hard to say.

If Dumbledore is wrong about Snape, what else is Dumbledore wrong about? It sounds like we are in for some interesting revelations in Book 6.

Solitaire


boop - Aug 8, 2004 1:59 am (#1811 of 2956)
Solitaire- The passage reads like this: "Perhaps," said Snape, his dark, cold eyes narrowing slightly, "perhaps you actually enjoy having these visions and dreams, Potter. Maybe they make you feel special---important?"

"No, they don't," said Harry, his jaw set and his fingers clenched tightly around the handle of his wand.

"That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters."

"No--that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.

He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.

"Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting, " That is my job. Now if you are ready, we will start again....."

This can be found in Chapter Twenty-Six page number 591 American.

Hope this helps.


ShelterGirl - Aug 8, 2004 5:34 am (#1812 of 2956)
Hi all, I've been away from the computer for a bit. I really like the animagus/boggart/patronus discussions. I like reading your ideas...

I agree wholeheartedly that Snape's boggart would be his father. It just feels right to me. I also agree with the bat/bird animagus, if he is one. I'm not fully convinced yet that he is. It seems like we would have had more clues dropped at our feet, such as with Rita Skeeter. Of course, those clues only became apparent in retrospect... As far as his patronus, I think that if it can assume a human form, it would be Dumbledore.

And thanks to Emiko for the nice compliment. I think I blushed...


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 8, 2004 5:52 am (#1813 of 2956)
After the whole Quirrell affair, I find it hard to believe that Voldemort will let Snape back into his good graces. Voldemort would have been furious that he did not get the stone, and Snape did not exactly make matters easier. When Quirrell tried to kill Harry, Snape saved his life - Voldemort desperately wants Harry dead, and anyone who saves his life will pay.

However, I am in agreement that Snape is spying on the DE and maybe Voldemort, however, I'm not sure that he is appearing as himself. There are numerous possibilities - he is an animagus (perhaps flying over them), using the imperious curse to get information out of other DE, polyjuice potion, invisibility cloak, etc. Snape is doing something very important for the Order - perhaps most important and lets not forget, JKR is very sneaky - for Snape to pretend to return to Voldemort and act as a double agent could be a little to simplistic for her.

There is one flaw in my theory. Remember in OotP, when Snape discovers that Harry has witnessed a conversation between Voldemort and Rookwood, then Voldemort is about to torture Avery?...Well I have been wondering - Snape clearly recognized that room. That then begs the question, has he been there before? The first war, or the second, and if he has been in recently, then surely Voldemort would have known about it.


TomProffitt - Aug 8, 2004 6:24 am (#1814 of 2956)
There is another factor to consider in Severus's role as spy.

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named was not yet ready to come out into the open in OP. Whether or not he suspected Snape's loyalties, it wasn't the appropriate time to "deal with him." He could have been very carefully parcelling out the information which he wished to be leaked to Dumbledore through Snape, thus allowing the "good" team to believe their spy had been reinserted into the Death Eaters.

That situation has now changed. He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named is now out in the open and the way the game will be played has now changed. It is time to find out Severus's true loyalties, and deal with him as appropriate. Perhaps even using him as a conduit for false information, much like Harry's dreams.

HBP will be a very dangerous time for Severus Snape.


Elanor - Aug 8, 2004 7:02 am (#1815 of 2956)
I agree with you Tom : in HBP, Snape may have to prove his loyalty to Voldemort. The next question will be : what will Snape be able to do without destroy his cover ? I still think he will remain loyal to DD : he knows what he owes to him (what WE don't know yet exactly). I think that could explain the "almost satisfied expression" Boop was quoting when he said it was his job to spy the DE : his pride may come from the fact that HE has an important job for DD, and this job may be a way to pay him back. I don't see him changing his mind with the weather.

And, he has already proved he could go beyond his hatred for Harry : after all, without him, the order and DD wouln't have been able to reach the MoM in time ! Some could answer that he failed during the occlumency lessons, but I think Harry has to share the blame with him. By the way, even if this lessons were in fact confrontations, they gave them a chance to understand each other better, reluctantly that's true, but now they know. For the first time Harry almost had pity on him, and I think Snape realized Harry's chilhood was not better than his, and certainly not the same as James' once. I always thought one of the reasons Snape hated James for was he was jealous of James' family : according to Sirius, James had marvelous parents and certainly a happy and easy childhood.

Last thing, I think his contact among the DE may be Lucius Malfoy, he could have easily convinced him he wasn't loyal to DD : Malfoy's hatred of DD will have worked in his favour.


Ann - Aug 8, 2004 7:13 am (#1816 of 2956)
Snape clearly recognized that room. Did he? Or did he just recognize Rookwood?

But I agree with Tom that the next year is going to be very hard on Snape.


Round Pink Spider - Aug 8, 2004 7:22 am (#1817 of 2956)
Oh, Luke! I did SO have my heart set on Snape being a vampire! boohoo Either that or a bat animagus ... after all of those comments about him "swooping" around the castle at night and Ron's speculation about him being a bat.

Solitaire, unless JKR has made another statement concerning Snape not being a vampire, this is the only one I know of:

Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so

As you can see, the young lady in question worded the question so loosely that JKR could have dodged out of it. She could have chosen to interpret it as "Is there a link between Snape and other vampires?" So while it weakens the case, just maybe...

Does anyone else know of a different quote?

Anyway, if he's not a vampire, I'm with you, he looks batty to me! Maybe he sneaks into Voldemort's fortress and "hangs around"... :-D

I had so expected people on this thread to be convinced of Snape's guilt. I'm so glad I'm wrong! But I think he's going to come out of HBP looking really bad (that might even be part of Voldie's plan...maybe Voldemort wants to destroy him).


Round Pink Spider - Aug 8, 2004 7:41 am (#1818 of 2956)
By the way (just to throw a wrench in the wheel), over on the "Long Theory" thread a couple of weeks ago, we were discussing rabbits being connected with Gryffindor blood or Gryffindor objects, and TwinklingBlueEyes brought up a quote from "Snape's Worst Memory":

"Sirius's head turned. He had become very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit [emphasis mine]. 'Excellent,' he said softly. 'Snivellus.'"

This set off alarm bells for me, and it brought up the following speculation for a few days:

Just as a theory, suppose James' grandfather...ah...sowed a wild oat or two when he was young. Snape would then be the result of an illegitimate branch of James' family. He would be James' half-cousin. An illegitimate child in a wealthy, possibly important family would have been quite an embarrassment. James would have grown up with that. Remember that James said he disliked Snape "because he exists."

As I said, nothing can breed hate like being badly treated by a relative (just look at Voldemort)! It's a very small clue...but it does give one possible explanation why James might have been so rude to Snape, and why Snape might have hated James so much, even if James saved his life. James grew up accepted and privileged, while Snape (and, presumably, his mother) were scorned and rejected as an embarrassment.

Just a possibility for discussion...



Hollywand - Aug 8, 2004 10:21 am (#1819 of 2956)
thanks Boop for the quote on 1812.

Knowing what we know now about Snape's ability to read minds, it seems that from reading this quote, Severus is looking into Harry's thoughts without Harry quite realizing it.

I think Dumbledore and Snape are already aware that Voldie has a mental port into Harry's mind. Severus wounds Harry's ego a bit "Do these visions make you feel special?" Then, as Harry protests that they do not, and accuses Severus, the two make extended eye contact. They stare at each other for a long while, and Snape has a satisfied expression on his face. Severus is looking into Harry's mind, and Severus sees that Voldemort is not an active presence within Harry's mind, a so his satisfied expression.

Maybe in the future, Severus could spy on Voldy through Harry's mind if Harry would collaborate with him.

I'm personally not convinced that the task Dumbledore is asking Severus to do is spy on the Death Eaters. Albus asked Severus to brew and cure for Lupin's condition, a great help to Lupin that was not really given much fanfare in the book.

So...what if Severus is brewing an anti-Voldie potion of some sort?

Or, what if its Albus' invitation to Severus to begin teaching DADA?

More food for thought: Maybe a lot of the deaths we will learn about in Book Six will be historical deaths, ie, deaths of Members of the Order, Lilly and James, their parents, Sirius brother. This would give a nice backdrop for book seven as Harry and the Order rise up to give the Voldemort his payback. Severus, in this "history within the story", could be a villian for most of Book Six, and do something pivotal at the end that reinforces the reason to trust Severus Snape.

Rowling has described the two books as "almost one" and perhaps the history links the future, would fit with her larger message.


Ann - Aug 8, 2004 10:46 am (#1820 of 2956)
I don't think that brewing a special potion or even teaching DADA (scary though that must be for a teacher) would be frightening enough to induce Snape's reaction at the end of GoF. I think he's getting what the newspapers these days call "Humintel," which can only be obtained by infiltrating the group you are interested in, and is very dangerous indeed. This also accounts for the excitement among Order members at the time of Harry's arrival: [Mrs. Weasley] whispered urgently, "He's just arrived, the meeting's started...." The wizards behind Harry all made noises of interest and excitement.... and later Fred says "I really fancied finding out what old Snape's been up to." And when Harry asks what Snape is doing at 12 GP, George says he's giving a report.

But I love your idea of Book Six being at least in parts a flashback. JKR keeps saying that all the necessary back-story will be included in the series, and perhaps this is how it will be done. Also, she says on her web site that the first chapter is a version of one that she might have used in several books (SS, PoA, and OotP--interestingly not CoS or GoF). So it must be historical to some degree, even if it is DD's letter to the Dursleys, which I've thought was a possibility. If it goes further back (Voldemort's birth??), it could be woven throughout the rest of the book.

<Edit: I just went back and looked at Rowling's FAQ on the connections between Books 2 and 6, and she says that Book 6 begins where Book 5 leaves off, which seems to me to rule out everything but the letter. But perhaps there's some other kind of flashback that can be presented in a contemporary context.>

Although, what I really worry about is that by the two books being almost one, she means that Book Six will end in a cliff hanger, and then we'll have to wait years for the conclusion. (Someone, somewhere, has already mentioned the LotR parallel, "Frodo was alive, but in the hands of the Enemy!" Not good.)


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 8, 2004 10:59 am (#1821 of 2956)
"(Someone, somewhere, has already mentioned the LotR parallel, "Frodo was alive, but in the hands of the Enemy!" Not good.)"

Or, it might be "Harry Potter: Reloaded" and "Harry Potter: Revolutions". "Harry, you are the conclusion of an anomaly, which, ergo..."

Seriously, though, how can Snape be spying on Voldemort, when Voldemort knows he's a traitor? Voldemort may be a BBEG (big bad evil guy), but he's not that dumb.

I don't think Book 6 will have anything to do with the Dursley letter, since JKR will tell us about that on her site, and she wouldn't give away anything important there.


Weeny Owl - Aug 8, 2004 11:00 am (#1822 of 2956)
An illegitimate child

I believe JKR would definitely not write about illegitimacy in these books.

Snape came to Hogwarts knowing more curses than half the seventh years. James hated the Dark Arts. That's enough of a reason for them to be at odds to being with.

James is in Gryffindor and Snape is in Slytherin. Those two houses, from the time of Godric and Salazar, do not get along. More reasons for them to dislike each other.

In PoA Snape told Harry that James had a small amount of talent on the Quidditch field. Lupin told everyone in the Shrieking Shack that he thought Snape might have been jealous of James's talent in Quidditch. Even more of a reason for their negative feelings to build.

There are plenty of reasons JKR has given us for Snape and James to feel a great deal of animosity for each other, and after Lupin almost attacked Snape, it probably went way beyond mere animosity.

Introducing and dealing with a topic such as illegitimacy in a delicate way doesn't seem to be JKR's style. The main plot of vanquishing Voldemort, the interactions between various characters, and even the relationships between the children are more vital to the books.

Seriously, though, how can Snape be spying on Voldemort, when Voldemort knows he's a traitor?

We don't know that Voldemort knows Snape is a traitor. Anything he witnessed from Quirrel's head can be explained very simply... Snape thought Quirrel was stealing the stone for himself. Saving Harry during Quidditch? Simple explanation... Dumbledore told Snape that he thought something might happen and he gave Snape orders to see that no one was hurt or killed. Snape has to follow orders if he is to remain at Hogwarts to spy for Voldemort, even if Voldemort wasn't really back yet.

The Pensieve scene where Dumbledore said Snape was spying for the good guys can be easily explained as well. Rita Skeeter wasn't present, and while members of the Wizengamot could be Death Eaters or Voldemort sympathizers, even if they told Voldemort what Dumbledore said, it can still be easily explained. Snape can tell Voldemort he was spying on Dumbledore and had Dumbledore convinced that he no longer supported Voldemort.

I believe it was Voldemort's idea to have Snape at Hogwarts in the first place. Voldemort needs someone to spy on Dumbledore and Hogwarts, and what better way than to send a Death Eater?

Snape is still going to have to be very careful, but he is a very capable wizard.


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 8, 2004 11:11 am (#1823 of 2956)
Respectfully, I must disagree. Voldemort told his followers that there were two surviving Death Eaters not among them: one was a coward, and one was a traitor. I think that this is something we can take at face value: Snape is the traitor, Karkaroff the coward, and not the other way around.

If Snape turns out to be evil, I will have to be convinced that the books are hopelessly black-and-white, with no moral complexity whatsoever, and that would strongly disappoint me.


Weeny Owl - Aug 8, 2004 11:29 am (#1824 of 2956)
I think that this is something we can take at face value: Snape is the traitor, Karkaroff the coward, and not the other way around.

Voldemort said that there were three missing Death Eaters, one he believed left him forever. I think the "left forever" is the most important part of that passage. Who left? Karkaroff and Bagman. Who stayed? Snape.

Karkaroff named names. Karkaroff renounced Voldemort in front of the entire Wizengamot. Karkaroff was the one who was worried all year.

Snape is still at Hogwarts. Lucius Malfoy speaks highly of him. I cannot imagine Voldemort's "slippery friend" speaking highly of a known traitor.

I don't believe Snape is evil. Snape is spying for both sides in order to fool Voldemort and give all the information he can to Dumbledore.


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 8, 2004 11:34 am (#1825 of 2956)
If that were the case, then Voldemort could have used Snape to get Harry to the graveyard. I seriously feel Voldemort knows Snape has sided with Dumbledore


Weeny Owl - Aug 8, 2004 12:05 pm (#1826 of 2956)
If that were the case, then Voldemort could have used Snape to get Harry to the graveyard. I seriously feel Voldemort knows Snape has sided with Dumbledore

No one knew Voldemort was going to come back except for Wormtail and Barty, Jr., plus having Barty, Jr. at Hogwarts instead of Mad-Eye meant that an actual retired Auror wouldn't be present. Why go to all the trouble of trying to contact Snape when there's already a loyal Death Eater available who can also remove the threat of a retired Auror?

I suppose Wormtail could have Apparated near Hogwarts, turned into a rat, and tried to sneak into the dungeons to talk to Snape, but with Crookshanks around, he might have been caught.


Hollywand - Aug 8, 2004 12:42 pm (#1827 of 2956)
The Snape cauldron is always bubbling. Hah. I agree with Richard, and especially Luke's point that if Snape turns coat, the series will fall flat for me into black and white.

Also, I must admit I will be disappointed if all the "He's actually the half-brother's double of the giant squid" sort of stuff is the actual conclusion, because for me it will lack the clarity and force of an advancing story line. However, I certainly don't intend to discourage other's discussions of that direction.

Ann, on your comment about the books, I am hoping that the two concluding books will be completed relatively faster and easier for Jo, as she is tying up the ends and they fall into place. One can always hope. I bet she's actually ready for something else besides Harry Potter .


Ann - Aug 8, 2004 1:02 pm (#1828 of 2956)
Hollywand, I hope you are right. It's true that she won't have to put in all those clues to future books, but given the number of threads on this forum (just as a rough measure), she's created a lot of loose ends that need to be tied up and woven together to complete her tapestry. It can't be easy to fit all that between a mere four covers!


Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 1:33 pm (#1829 of 2956)
I've tried twice, I believe, to thank Boop for the info. I've crashed twice. Someone doesn't want me posting here. *looking around* I'll try again ...

At the end of GoF, Voldemort says of the three missing (still alive) DEs: "One, too cowardly to return ... he will pay. [Karkaroff, IMO] One, who I believe has left me forever ... he will be killed, of course.[Snape is my guess] ... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service [Barty Crouch, Jr., IMO]." That's how I've always interpreted that passage.

I like what Richard, Tom and Elanor had to say in #1813-15. I agree with Ann and RPS that Snape has rough times ahead in HBP. I love Hollywand's idea of Snape spying on Voldemort through Harry ... but I think I'd want tickets to see that particular collaboration. Do you think either can get past the personal feelings?

I really like Round Pink Spider's idea about Snape's heritage. It fits to a tee. However, I'm not sure JKR would be willing to chase that rabbit in a kids' book. I like a lot of what Weeny has said, too ... hard to know exactly who thinks what about Snape, isn't it? I guess that's one of the pluses of Occlumency.

Ann's right about the loose ends and backstories ... JKR has her hands full. It makes one wonder how much plot can get advanced in book 6, with all the loose ends we need tied up!

Solitaire


Emiko - Aug 8, 2004 1:34 pm (#1830 of 2956)
I really hate to bring this up, because I'd rather not believe it, but, what if Dumbledore's wrong about Snape? Everyone mentions Dumbledore's trust being a key part to their trust/love of Snape, and for the first 4 books, I'd totally accept that. For the first 4 books, Dumbledore, for Harry and for us as readers, had a sort of aura about him, he was wise and powerful, he always saved Harry, and he always knew what to do. In OotP, Dumbledore's aura slips a bit, or a lot, when we realize (and he realizes) how stupid he was about protecting Harry, and how terribly wrong he was about Snape's grudge. Dumbledore's not perfect. I think that's something Harry (and the readers) need to accept. And as Harry understands that, he's not going to be relying on Dumbledore as much as he did before. But, my origional point was, if Dumbledore could have been wrong on such a crucial part, something he said could cost the lives of thousands of people, then he could also be wrong about Snape's alignment.

And, Solitare- what you pointed out about Snape making Harry feel bad, I still think that Snape makes Harry angry rather than guilty (although Harry seems to feel a bit humiliated) I totally agree with what you said about his inability to impress upon Harry, the seriousness of his actions.


Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 1:43 pm (#1831 of 2956)
Emiko, I think it is part of Snape's bitter personality. He is just unable to separate Harry from his dad ... a bad thing given his position of authority in Harry's life. Snape is so brilliant that it's too bad he is unable to have a more positive impact on Harry. But if he were nice, I guess he wouldn't be Snape and some major plot drivers would be gone, wouldn't they?

I, too, hope DD has not misplaced his trust in Snape. In OotP, I think we certainly have been set up to see vulnerability in Dumbledore ... so it is a possibility. I am also needled by that Pensieve scene back in Dumbledore's office (GoF, I think) ... when Harry sees/hears Dumbledore tell the court that "Severus Snape is no more a Death Eater than I am" ... or words to that effect. It always sticks there in the back of my mind. Why IS that? Are we getting TOO mistrustful of everyone?

Solitaire


Hollywand - Aug 8, 2004 2:33 pm (#1832 of 2956)
To my mind, Severus intentionally baits Harry to make him angry. Harry's anger usually focuses his stare right on Snape, so Snape can have a look in his mind. Snape knows exactly what he's doing. I'd love to see a productive alliance between Harry and Snape. I bet Albus would, too.....

Regarding Dumbledore's "mistakes": I think that's Rowling's way of offering a metaphor for the tweens who are reading about their parents---as much as a parent might like to protect their child from every hurt, it just can't be done. Witholding information and doing everything for the growing child isn't helpful either. Mistakes just can't be avoided, no matter how powerful the wizard or good the intention. I don't think Rowling intends the passage to mean that Dumbledore has poor judgement, and by extension Albus is wrong to trust Snape. A person who never admits fault is showing weakness and not strength.

I have said in other posts, I will be devestated if Severus does turn his back on Minerva and Albus, as they have demanded that Harry, Ron and Hermione respect Severus, and I trust their judgement.

The other factor is that Hogwarts will indeed crumble from within if a major character like Professor Snape returns to the Death Eaters.


Mynn - Aug 8, 2004 3:43 pm (#1833 of 2956)
Good Point Hollywand: Hogwarts will indeed crumble from within if a major character like Professor Snape returns to the Death Eaters.

I love this thread! I've got to comment on a couple of things.

First Snapes Boggart: His father

Snapes Patronus: Someone earlier (can't remember who a couple hundred post back said Panther and I really like that idea.

Animagus: Either a Bat or I like the Hawk Idea.

I have always felt Snape was mean but essencially good. Reading through the 1,832 post however, I have swayed between he's pure evil and back to mean but essencially good.

As all of the characters JKR has created Snape has major faults and weakness's. That's what makes the characters so intriguing and real. Though he doesn't always get to where he's going in the way we would have him go (nice and happy and pleasent) I have come to the conclusion that Snape is at least going the way we want him to go.

I hope that makes sense.

One more thing and then I'm done, and I'm sorry this post is so long. Is Snape a spy? I've been convinced of that since the end of the fourth book. But some of the things people have brought up make me wonder if he COULD be a spy. We know Voldermort has spies in the MoM. If Dumbledore testified to the whole court during the original trials, shortly after Voldermort fell the first time, how could Snape be a qualified spy? I'm begginning to think that Snape is up to something else for the order. Anyhow, I guess that's a mouthful.


Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 4:14 pm (#1834 of 2956)
If Dumbledore testified to the whole court during the original trials, shortly after Voldermort fell the first time, how could Snape be a qualified spy? I'm begginning to think that Snape is up to something else for the order. Mynn, I generally tend to stick close to this camp for the reasons you mention.

There ARE a couple of situations, however, which tend to pull me in the other direction. One is the exchange between Snape & Sirius at 12GP, when Sirius calls Snape Lucius Malfoy's lapdog, and Snape retorts that Lucius observed Sirius as Padfoot on the train platform. The other is the instance mentioned several posts back in this thread, where Snape agrees with Harry that it's his job to learn what V is saying to the DEs. I'll admit ... that certainly makes it LOOK like it could be happening.

Hollywand, I really do like your comparison of Dumbledore to a parent who, no matter how hard he tries and how good his intentions, is bound to make SOME mistakes. And it is true that DD's ability to admit his mistakes makes him human and much more realistic.

I, too, hope he and McGonagall are not betrayed in their trust of Snape, for that would be a sad lesson to teach kids: Never trust adults, because they are either too stupid to know what's what (they already have Fudge for THAT lesson!), or they are evil and will ultimately hurt you.

Solitaire


mike miller - Aug 8, 2004 6:13 pm (#1835 of 2956)
I do believe that Severus is a spy, a double agent in fact. That's the difficult part of his character and where the questioning of his loyalty comes into play; it's the nature of his job for the Order. I think both DD and Voldemort knows Prof. Snape is "in contact" with the other side. Severus probably had some fast talking to do when he went back to Voldemort after his re-bodification. Severus was obviously successful and throughout OotP Voldemort believes Severus is spying for him.

The heart of the question is to who is Severus really loyal? I believe DD is correct in trusting Severus dispite his issues and "baggage". I think Severus uses the old addage, That which does not kill you will make you stronger, when it comes to how he's trying to help prepare Harry for his destiny.

Here's an interesting picture; Prof. Snape, Neville and Harry brewing a special potion with Mimbulus Mimbletonia StinkSap as a principle ingredient that will make the drinker (Harry) impervious to the effects of Voldemort's AK curse. I don't really think this will happen, but I would like to see Severus let go of the past.


Ann - Aug 8, 2004 7:09 pm (#1836 of 2956)
Mike, "re-bodification"! What a wonderful word!

I'd like to see Snape working with Harry & Neville, too, but I seriously doubt that it's going to happen. By the way, has anyone made any suggestions about why Snape hates Neville so much? Did Snape have some baggage with his parents, too? Or is it just Neville's failure to learn Potions under his less-than-sensitive guidance?


Hollywand - Aug 8, 2004 7:16 pm (#1837 of 2956)
I just think poor little Neville's a bumbling, disorganized, unconfident and generally schlubby little guy that will blossom like a Mimbulus Mimbeltonia in the next two books. Guys like Neville get picked on by cruellas like Snape and Draco. Guys like Draco and Snape may get the bill in the mail later.....

I love the re-bodification concept too! Vapor to Viper in sixty.


Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 7:18 pm (#1838 of 2956)
Ann, my guess is that your last sentence is spot-on. Snape sees emotions as weak, and Neville and Harry are all about heart and emotions, IMO. I suspect Snape hates that in them.

If he is like another similar teacher I've known, he enjoys belittling them, humiliating them, yet at the same time he is offended by their failure to find his class the most important they've ever studied.

Sometimes I wonder whether or not there is a war going in within Snape about these issues. Does he hate those who give and receive love and friendship because it was withheld from him? Is his truly despicable behavior a backlash from the fact that he was never really loved? OH, I don't know ... Snape is certainly a complex character, and finding out what made him the way he is will be fascinating, I'm sure.

Solitaire


Round Pink Spider - Aug 8, 2004 7:22 pm (#1839 of 2956)
Hahaha! LOL! ROFL! Thanks for the laugh, Hollywand!


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 8, 2004 7:27 pm (#1840 of 2956)
Just a comment from the Snape-is-a-good-guy side: I really like the idea of Solitaire's that Snape hates emotions. But let's look at Snape's life from this POV:

Snape was abused as a child. His father probably beat him and at the very least yelled at him; his mother was too busy dealing with his father to show any sympathy. His father probably thought that if Snape showed emotion, he was being weak, and Snape may have wanted to impress his father. Then he went to school, where showing emotion is never seen as healthy - you never want to cry or be emotional at school, if you're a guy at least.

So along come these "Death Eaters". They tell this kid who's seen himself as inferior for his whole life that, as a pureblood wizard, he's a superior race. Obviously, he latches on to that, and joins them. It's all fun and games now; those who he fights, those who picked on him as kids, are all either inferior Mudbloods, or Muggle-loving blood traitors. At last Snape has found purpose.

But one of these days, Voldemort or his followers expect Snape to do something which is beyond what Snape can allow himself to do. So Snape turns on them. He finds acceptance with Dumbledore. Maybe now he can learn to show emotion.

But there are so many things going against Snape here. Snape has never learned to express emotion; and also, during his time with the DEs, he may have killed, tortured, or done other things he doesn't want to feel guilt for. So he shoves his emotions under the surface, all except for his anger, which is less of an emotion than a chemical reaction. It's not that Snape can't love; it's that if he does, he'll have to take all the other horrible things he's done, accept his guilt for them, and he doesn't want to do that. Or maybe he's just so used to being who he is that his change of moral alignment can't change his personality.

Anyway, that's my hope. Then there's the seemingly increasingly-likely possibility that Snape is just evil. That would disappoint me.


Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 7:36 pm (#1841 of 2956)
Wow, Luke. I really LIKE your explanation. As much as I abhor Snape's behavior, however, I tend to shy away from him as a murderer. In fact, I think that it MIGHT just have been THAT particular act which caused him to say, "No, I cannot go that far."

But I think you have given a very plausible scenario of what might have been Snape's early experiences and the impetus for him to join the DEs in the first place. Great post!

Solitaire


Hollywand - Aug 8, 2004 7:39 pm (#1842 of 2956)
Great post Luke. I have always heard from men that if you show your vulnerability in a male-oriented environment, the other guys will just go for your jugular. In fact, the whole Snape's worst memory seems to illustrate that, with Sirius envisoning Severus as weak, soft-bellied, defenseless rabbit to his dog. Yikes. Doesn't make boarding school sound like a whole lot of fun.

And so lots of those who are abused make a pact to dish it out, then they won't have to be on the receiving side.

I think Dumbledore may have saved Snape's life at some point, I bet we find out....

Also, some instructors clearly feel that cruelty is enlightening. There's an instructor where I teach that rips students' drawings from the wall, crumples them and humiliates the students before the class. I have three of his refugees already who have defected to my class. I only expect the teacher to come gunning for me eventually. I will just pull out my trusty Hollywand and say: "Expelliarmus!!!!"

That should scare the holy bananas out of him.... ;-) Bwaaahaaaa!


Elanor - Aug 8, 2004 11:29 pm (#1843 of 2956)
I loved your post too Luke ! I would also be very disappointed if Snape betrayed DD at last. I hope he won't. I don't know why, but it seems to me it took him a great part of his life to understand that dark arts won't give him what he was deprived of when he was a child. And, as far as we know, he learnt it the hard way. There are lessons life teach you you never forget.

That's why he can't stand people like Neville too : these people show their weaknesses and I think all his life he has been afraid to show his own, what led him to the dark arts : better be feared than pitied. The fact that he doesn't show his emotions doesn't mean he doesn't feel them, but to hide them has become a second nature that will be difficult to change !

I think there is one scene in GoF which is very revealing, in the chapter 'the parting of the ways'. He let Harry, DD and McGonagall try to convince Fudge Voldemort is back and then, seeing they couldn't do it, he showed Fudge his Dark Mark. Knowing his pride, we can easily imagine what a painful step he must have taken for him to show it in front of all these witnesses, especially Harry and the Weasleys. After that, I quote :

" 'Severus', said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, 'you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready... if you are prepared...' 'I am,' said Snape. He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. 'Then, good luck,' said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius'."

From which, IMO, we can deduce that : first, DD and Snape had a plan built and prepared for a long time, second that he has already accepted the possible consequences of his acts at DD's side, and thirst, that even after all this events so emotionally strong for him, Snape is still able to control himself and set his pride aside in real need.


Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 11:52 pm (#1844 of 2956)
better be feared than pitied. Good point, Elanor ... as is your entire last paragraph. That is how I interpreted that passage, too. Snape knows he must transform into a vampire bat, and he is NOT happy about it. **just kidding**

Solitaire


septentrion - Aug 9, 2004 2:07 am (#1845 of 2956)
I go to bed, leaving no unread post on the Snape thread and when I get up, there are 29 of them !

Weeny Owl, about LV wanting to have a spy at Hogwarts : maybe Snape was manipulative enough to convince LV that he would be the best one for this mission, and given the fact that he had switched sides, it was perfect for the Order.

Luke and Elanor : couldn't have said (thought) better.


ShelterGirl - Aug 9, 2004 5:08 am (#1846 of 2956)
Does he hate those who give and receive love and friendship because it was withheld from him?

Solitaire- I agree completely with that. And I agree with Luke's post, and Hollywand's, and Elanor's...I woke up this morning and agreed with all of the new posts on the Snape thread. How novel for me!

I often wonder what would happen to Snape if he allowed himself to feel love or friendship. In my head I imagine something of a nervous breakdown occurring. At least some of the money the Malfoys donated to St Mungo's would be put to an ironic use...


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 9, 2004 8:41 am (#1847 of 2956)
I really love the post made by Luke. There is alot of this that goes on in our lives as well, many gang members are drawn in by the feeling of "family" when they had none, at least none that truly cared, and this is exactly what happened to Snape.

I also need to comment about whether or not Snape is a spy. Im a little confused, or maybe I just took it for granted, but I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Snape was working on the inside of the DE for DD. He has the Dark Mark, and its pretty much known to everyone that you either keep your loyalty with Voldy or you die. So our Snape pretty much has to go back, but being the master he is at Legilmancy and Occulmency, he doesnt have to worry too much about Voldemort knowing that he still has alliance with DD. And Id have to believe that Voldemort thinks that Snape is working the inside of Hogwarts for him. But then I wonder, why hasnt Voldy sent Snape to kill Harry yet? Especially with him being in power, I really wonder if a final battle scene could include Voldy, Snape, and Harry, with Snape showing his true colors to all of us (finally), and either helping Harry or Voldy (hopin Harry).

As far as him showing love or friendship to anyone, everyone expresses themselves in different ways. Snape may not need frienship as much as he needs the respect and approval of his peers (namely DD), and he demands the respect of his pupils.

I also wonder...weve all had that teacher that just seems to have lost their "zest" for teaching. Maybe Snape is just tired of 14 year old kids blowing up his classroom all the time.


T Brightwater - Aug 9, 2004 9:18 am (#1848 of 2956)
Wonderful discussion, all!

I can see several possibilities for Snape being a double agent.

1. Voldemort doesn't know he has really changed sides.

The first thing we hear about Lucius Malfoy in CoS is from Gred & Forge: "He was a big supporter of You-Know-Who." "And when You-Know_who disappeared, Lucius Malfoy came back saying he'd never meant any of it. Load of dung--Dad reckons he was right in You-Know-Who's inner circle."

We know there are a lot of DEs who claimed to have been acting under the Imperius Curse and even had jobs or contacts at the MoM. (Macnair, for example.) No reason Snape couldn't have been another one. He would have to do some fast talking to get back into Voldemort's good graces, but he can offer him a listening post at Hogwarts.

It's possible that at the graveyard Voldemort thought Snape had indeed left him forever, and that Snape's dangerous mission after leaving the hospital wing was to try to convince V that he also was a faithful servant, and hadn't come to the meeting because he couldn't get away from Hogwarts.

If he completely blocked Voldemort from any access to his mind, it would probably be suspicious, so I think he allows V to see his memories and feelings about the Marauders and Harry. His intense hatred of them might be enough to convince V that Snape is on his side.

2. Voldemort knows or thinks that Snape is a traitor, but the Death Eaters don't.

In the graveyard, Voldemort didn't name names. He said that there was one too cowardly to return, one who, he believed, had left him forever, and his most faithful servant, who had already re-entered his service and was at Hogwarts. As far as the DEs know, Crouch Jr. died years ago. Who are _they_ going to think is the "most faithful servant"? Snape. We can be sure that Draco has let his father know everything Snape has said or done to Harry in class.

I don't get the feeling that Voldemort holds regular staff meetings and briefs everyone thoroughly on what's been going on, and we know he tends to overlook important details. So why shouldn't Lucius tell his old friend Severus all the latest news?

3. There was another traitor among the Death Eaters, and Voldemort was referring to him as the "one who had left him forever".

I wonder if it's Mundungus - it's been suggested that he was the spy in the Hog's Head who heard the first part of Sibyll's prophecy.


Ann - Aug 9, 2004 9:35 am (#1849 of 2956)
What a sequence of interesting posts! Good work, everyone!

I really like the idea that Snape is showing Voldemort his feelings about Harry and the Marauders--that sort of animosity is just the sort of thoughts that Voldemort would pick up (and legilimancy seems to work far better with emotions than with rational thinking). And concentrating on those emotions, so he can use them as cover, may help sustain them, despite Harry's importance to the Order and the fact that they are on the same side.

Hmmmm... I wonder if the rapprochement between Harry and Snape that we've all been hoping for (or most of us) will make Snape vulnerable to Voldemort? But you would think Dumbledore would have worried about that, and not asked him to work so closely with Harry.


T Brightwater - Aug 9, 2004 9:49 am (#1850 of 2956)
"legilimancy seems to work far better with emotions than with rational thinking."

Ann, that's a good point. If Voldemort isn't quite sure he can trust Snape and he manages to access Harry's feelings, he'll find that Harry hates Snape as much as Snape hates Harry. It could be that Snape knows that his own cover might depend on Harry not having any positive feelings toward him. It was suggested earlier that Snape doesn't want Harry to sympathize with him, and this might be a reason.

If this is true, Snape does want Harry to learn Occlumency, but doesn't want to disturb the "loathe/loathe" relationship between them, as this is an essential part of his cover. If Harry ever masters Occlumency, it won't be a problem and maybe they can sort things out. (I'm not holding my breath on that one.)
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Weeny Owl - Aug 9, 2004 9:50 am (#1851 of 2956)
But then I wonder, why hasnt Voldy sent Snape to kill Harry yet?

That's a valid question, but it has some possible answers.

One answer is that with Voldemort's huge ego, he wants to kill Harry himself. Barty Crouch, Jr. felt he would be rewarded for killing Harry, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

Another possibility is that whatever makes Hogwarts safe would keep a student from being killed. There is the Chamber of Secrets, but that might be outside whatever protections the castle itself has.

A third answer might be that Voldemort has told Snape to kill Harry, but Snape and Dumbledore came up with something that would prohibit it... maybe Dumbledore casting some sort of spell on Snape that would not allow him to kill a student. That doesn't mean Dumbledore actually did cast a spell, but that they're using that as an explanation to keep Voldemort from demanding it of Snape.


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 9, 2004 10:04 am (#1852 of 2956)
T Brightwater, I like your theory. It might be a little hurt by the fact that this was sort of already done with Dumbledore and Harry in OotP, but still, good theory.


Ann - Aug 9, 2004 10:06 am (#1853 of 2956)
And there's also the fact that, from Voldemort's viewpoint, when he finally gets rid of that pesky little Harry Potter, he still has to take over the world. Snape, as a highly-skilled wizard who is placed so near Dumbledore at well-protected Hogwarts, might be too potentially valuable in that later fight to sacrifice just to get Potter. (Although I also think that, at least at this point, Voldemort's ego is involved, too.)


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 9, 2004 10:51 am (#1854 of 2956)
This may have been covered in a previous post, but as I dont have the time (or energy) to search a few thousand posts, Im gonna try to bring it up again.

Do we know for fact that Snape is pureblood? I never thought of logging pureblood/halfblood/mudblood when I read about characters (except for the obvious, Harry, Hermione, Ron, etc.), and I dont remember it ever being put out there that he was pure blood. He may be head of Slytherin house, but that is just for the ambitious, not necesarily pureblood.

Good point of view Ann on the waiting to deploy Snape (or at least thats what Voldemort thinks). Now to think of it, it makes sense that if Voldemort thinks he has this connection to Hogwarts, and not wanting to tempt the ancient magic that rules over the school, it is better to wait for more of a key moment to use Snape, and not uncover him just to try to get Harry. Sometimes I get narrowed down to Voldy just wanting Harry and that he really strives to take over the world, (or rid it of muggles?)


Good Evans - Aug 9, 2004 10:53 am (#1855 of 2956)
Edited by Aug 9, 2004 11:54 am
I'd be surprised if he was halfblood bearing in mind his comment to Lily in OotP during the penseive sequence. Whe he called her a mudblood

Still it might explain why he is so grumpy / unhappy - he despises himself??


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 9, 2004 11:10 am (#1856 of 2956)
Lily was halfblood as well. But why did Snape call her a mudblood, because when Malfoy harrases the trio, it is only the muggle-born (Hermione) he calls "mudblood". He never calls Harry this (who is halfblood), and of course not Ron since he is pureblood (although he loves the muggles).

Very possible, I also wonder if the DEs have to be purebloods, since that is the only wizard/witch worth knowing. Because if this is true, then Snape would definatly have to be pureblood. But I also think that Voldemort needs all the help he can get, and thus recruits anyone, maybe even telling them they can "wash clean" of their mudblood by helping him rid the world of the muggle borns who oppose him.


Emiko - Aug 9, 2004 12:57 pm (#1857 of 2956)
Saepio- I don't believe Lily was half-blood, it sounded like she was a "mudblood", especially with Petunia for a sister, I can't imagine her a squib. Besides, if Lily was half-blood, wouldn't that make Harry like, a quarter-blood or something? Well, that depends, was James pure blood.

I always assumed Snape was pureblood because of the mudblood comment, and the fact that he turned up at school knowing a bunch of dark spells that he probablly wouldn't know if he came from a muggle house, although the halfblood thing doesn't quite get ruled out.

Ann- I loved that point of Occulemency picking up emotions rather than rationall thinking, put that together w/ the comment about Snape having to let Voldemort access at least part of his mind... Well, what if Snape has "rationalized" his switch and he actions (which must have more planing than emotion involved) in which case, Voldemort wouldn't pick up on it because it wasn't emotional. Remember when Sirius was in Azkaban and he was talking about how he clinged to the fact of his innocence, and the dementors couldn't take it away because it wasn't happy thought? Both cases require a certain TYPE of thought, and JKR seems to be big on different types of thoughts (look at the Patronus) So, that could be how Snape manages to remain a spy, he know enough about occulemency to hide his thoughts, not by blocking them (because somehow I have a feeling LV'd know when he couldn't get acesss somewhere) but by organizing them so LV couldn't read them.


Emiko - Aug 9, 2004 4:54 pm (#1858 of 2956)
I just realized I made it sound like Lily was a squib- what I meant was, if Lily wasn't a muggle, that'd mean the petunia was a squib, wouldn't it? Or, even if she grew up half, she'd still have the wizarding heritage, and petunia only seems to know of wizarding through Lily, and have grown up in an entirly muggle world.


Siriusly - Aug 9, 2004 4:59 pm (#1859 of 2956)
Edited by Denise P. Aug 9, 2004 6:05 pm
Edit: There is no reason to double post your theory. Please post it once, people will see it and comment. I deleted the theory here but did put a link to your post on the other thread. Denise P.

I just posted this on the Snape at Godric Hollow thread but wanted yourThis is my first post so I thought I would really throw something out there that would shake things up.

Madam Pince "Was It Snape At Godric?s Hollow That Night?" 8/9/04 5:56pm


Emiko - Aug 9, 2004 5:07 pm (#1860 of 2956)
Interesting theory- seems just a leeeetle unlikely, as it completly uproots all that we've read in the past 5 books (and questions of "I just spent 7 years obsessing over someone who didn't actually exist!" are bound to pop up!) Aside from that, 2 major problems you may want to tweek: 1) If Snape took care of James' life debt, why did he work so hard to save him in SS/PS 2) YOU CANNOT APPARATE TO OR FROM HOGWARTS (honestly, hasn't anyone read Hogwarts, a History?) other than that, seems plausible. I fail to see why Pettigrew should write down the information rather than just verbally giving it to LV, and why James would change his eyes (and how, would he change his eyes?) to green. But, I'm very intrigued by your idea (however much it sounds like I'm not!) and would like to hear your answers!


Siriusly - Aug 9, 2004 5:16 pm (#1861 of 2956)
He is now guarding his own creation, secret, Dumbledore's creation, whatever.

Ah but Snape says, You cannot Apparate or Disapparate from inside the castle.

He would change his eyes because Harry's eyes are green. As to how, he changes into a stag - I don't think his eyes would be hard.

OOh even weirder thought, What if the Weasley's actually have only 5 sons. Ron is James and Hermione is Lili. (hahahaaaa)


Emiko - Aug 9, 2004 5:28 pm (#1862 of 2956)
Ah, but Hermine says that you cannot apparate or disapparate on Hogwarts grounds. Maybe I lost you on that one, but... weren't you saying that our Harry, the one we've been reading about is actually James transfigured and with a huge obliviate? So then, how would anyone know that Harry's eyes were really green, what would be the point of changing them? Well, maybe there's a spell to do it, but with what we know right now, I dunno... oh, and how does Harry grow up, would it be a very slow... time spell? I'd be surprised if there was one, wizards don't seem to like medling with time, surely it'd be monitered... and, does that mean that Neville is actually Harry (and they switched at birth, or a years after)? So, where's the real Neville? And does that mean Neville has to kill or be killed by Voldemort?

Oooo- that Ron/Hermione James/Lily is a scary thought. Though, that'd explain the "romantic tension"!!!! tee hee, at least, to those Ron/Hermione shipers!


Siriusly - Aug 9, 2004 5:37 pm (#1863 of 2956)
I just wanted to point out that Snape says it is only in the castle, and well since he has lived there longer I thought maybe he knew better the Hermione. Change the eyes because if he looked exactly like James to a tee someone might get suspisious. He grows normally like he would if he were one again (and I have a feeling DD plays with time alot). Maybe there is no Neville (only hidden Harry). And yes, Neville/Harry would have to battle Volde.


Elanor - Aug 10, 2004 12:11 am (#1864 of 2956)
Well, I've just read the last posts and wanted to say that :

- first, Lily is muggle-born (and please, please not mudblood, this is insulting her !)

- second, your theory is funny Siriusly, but seriously I don't believe it (and in fact would be really disappointed if it was true !)

On a previous post, I was saying that one of the reasons Snape hated James for was that he was jealous of James'happy childhood. I was rereading OotP last evening and I truly understood something I never did before. When Sirius and Snape have their little fight in 12GP during the XMas holidays, Sirius attacked first.

I quote : " 'You know', said Sirius loudly, leaning back on his rear chair legs and speaking to the ceiling, 'I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house you see.' An ugly flush suffused Snape's pallid face".

And I was wondering : how may times have we ever seen Snape flushing ? With all his self-control the insult must have been serious to make him flush. BTW, all their fight is full of hidden meaning. In fact, I was wondering if this wasn't related to the fact that both Sirius and James seemed to have wealthy families and not Snape. It was maybe one of the things they torment him with when they were at Hogwarts and Sirius was alluding to that old insult. And, after that, Sirius called Snape "Snivellus" : we don't know the exact origin of the nickname, but I bet it would be highly interesting ! What do you think?


septentrion - Aug 10, 2004 1:45 am (#1865 of 2956)
I never noticed Sirius attacked first ! But I fully agree with the hidden meaning !

About Snape's nickname, maybe he was the kind of complaining to the teachers or to others about the teasing he was suffering of.


Accio Sirius - Aug 10, 2004 5:50 am (#1866 of 2956)
Well if you recall, up until that point, Snape had been needling Sirius about not being able to help The Order, so from how I read the scene, Sirius took what little leverage he had at the time and used it. At first it just seemed like petty bickering between the two (and Snape is better with the insults; he remains calm) and then the fight did get quite heated. But Snape definitely came out on top in that one.


Ann - Aug 10, 2004 5:55 am (#1867 of 2956)
Elanor, a really good observation. If Snape did grow up poor, Sirius was really being pretty nasty, whatever the provocation.


Elanor - Aug 10, 2004 7:00 am (#1868 of 2956)
Hi Accio ! I've checked again and this is the quote :

"A minute or two later, he pushed open the kitchen door to find Sirius and Snape both seated at the long kitchen table, glaring in opposite directions. The silence between them was heavy with mutual dislike. A letter lay open on the table in front of Sirius.

"Er," said Harry, to announce his presence.

Snape looked around at him, his face framed between curtains of greasy black hair.

'Sit down, Potter.'

'You know , said Sirius loudly, leaning back on his rear chair legs and speaking to the ceiling, 'I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house, you see'. "

And AFTER that, Snape flushed and says to Sirius "you must feel - ah - frustrated by the fact you can do nothing useful [...] for the Order".

That is true that we don't know what they said to each other before Harry came in the room, but then, Sirius really began the fight. Well it might have been Snape first as well, but he seems to contain himself better in that situation than Sirius, whose frustration is here nearly palpable.

What I think was interesting here is that it is the second time in the book (with the Snape worst memory chapter) that Sirius deliberately provoked Snapes, who, I agree, seized the opportunity immediately. But still, that backs up the fact that you don't have, on one side, the good Sirius and, on the other, the nasty Snape : things are more complex than that, and I am sure one of the keys of the whole story lies here !


McSnurp - Aug 10, 2004 7:20 am (#1869 of 2956)
That's a very good point.


Emiko - Aug 10, 2004 7:41 am (#1870 of 2956)
Looking at Sirius' personality (up until book 5) it wouldn't have been fathomable for him to deliberatly pick on anyone, and he didn't seem like the kind of person who would hold a grudge (especially since it seems Snape didn't DO anything to him; he held a grudge w/ Peter, but I'd say that was for far better reasons.) I think two things caused Sirius' "change" in personality in OotP, which ultimately led him to hate Snape. Firstly, Sirius finally has to deal with James' death. It's one thing to know he's dead and to be shut up in Azkaban dwelling on the thought, and it's a completly different thing to be back, in almost the same position as before, with James not there. Sirius has to face all sorts of people who have had 15 years to deal with the fact, while technically speaking, it's Sirius' first year for James' death to be an abscence. It must have really got to him that someone who was a) a DE, and therefore, in Sirius' mind "responsible" for the death of his best friend b) completly unremorseful (Sirius could have jumped to that conclusion from his memories of Snape, but it's still pretty true) and c) completly horrible to Harry, Sirius' last link to James, and someone he's kind of chosen to protect and mentor was in the OotP as well.

I think the other part of the pain is seeing Snape, someone once so lowly, be above him and able to help the order, when it's really Snape's fault that Sirius isn't free in the first place. And, I can't help wondering how much Sirius knows about Snape campaigning for the Kiss to be performed immediatly.

I don't think Sirius' actions are a result of a highschool grudge against Snape, because, at least as far as we know, he doesn't have anything bad to remember, except shame. And in the PoA, when Lupin mentions Snape, he doesn't say Snivellus, he merely sharply asks what Snape has to do with it. He probablly doesn't LOOOOVE Snape, but I think that if it hadn't been for James' death, and the whole, "you're not helpful to the order, wahahahaha!" bit, there wouldn't have been such a problem between Sirius and Snape.


TomProffitt - Aug 10, 2004 7:51 am (#1871 of 2956)
I agree with much of what you said, Emiko.

But let's not forget that Severus believes that Sirius tried to kill him back in their Hogwarts days. (or at best infect him with lycanthropy)

Seeing as how both believed the other had tried to get them killed(by werewolf or by dementor) it's really amazing that the two got along as well as they did.


Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Aug 10, 2004 7:53 am (#1872 of 2956)
Isn't it possible that Sirius hated Snape on a purely elemental level? People often take an instant dislike to each other which naturally colors all their later interactions. During their school years, whatever Snape and Sirius did would have confirmed their negative feelings for each other and bred even more contempt. To find themselves both on one side means they'd have to reevaluate all those old feelings and assumptions about the other and, horror of horrors, perhaps admit they were wrong about each other. Which really wouldn't be a problem considering how open-minded they both are....


Miss Moony - Aug 10, 2004 8:03 am (#1873 of 2956)
I think I might hold a grudge too, if I was sitting across the table from someone who used to flip me upside down and show my underwear to the whole school...

But anyways, I was thinking (no, really! Very Happy) if Snape does turn out to be pureblood, couldn't he and Sirius be related? That would give a sort of double meaning to that "It's my house you see" insult.


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 10, 2004 8:38 am (#1874 of 2956)
They said that quite a few names had been burned off the Black Family Tree. Is it possible that Snape could have been one of them? I dont see why though, Snapes early years were exactly how Sirius's dear old Mum would like a son. He was a DE, involved in dark arts, and hated mudbloods. What more could she have wanted?


Accio Sirius - Aug 10, 2004 9:13 am (#1875 of 2956)
Oh, I definitely think that Sirius and Snape genuinely dislike each other, but as we've discussed before, I always got the feeling Snape hated James more. Maybe it's the Lily thing (the love triangle which I can't say I believe), or that he was envious of James. I don't think Snape envied anything about Sirius. Even if it was about money, Snape had a respected position at Hogwarts and Sirius was stripped of everything. As for when they were in school, I think magical power trumped family money--as that was what they were all after. I think Snape and Sirius both enjoy having each other to openly vent on. I don't think Snape would cheer in Sirius' death for the purely utilitarian reason that it was another capable soldier lost. I have no doubt he will outline and reiterate all of Sirius' shortcomings (and those of Harry's) in relation to how and why he died. As for the scene in the kitchen, Sirius may have started that round, but I saw it as an ongoing battle. But I was rather surprised that Sirius could make Snape flush. I must admit, I was a little disappointed that he let that get to him!


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 10, 2004 9:15 am (#1876 of 2956)
I honestly think Snape will be a lot nicer in Book 6, and Harry will be the one propogating their mutual problems. Snape may be a jerk, but it is my hope that he's not that much of a jerk.


Kasse - Aug 10, 2004 9:17 am (#1877 of 2956)
Accio Sirius wrote: But I was rather surprised that Sirius could make Snape flush. I must admit, I was a little disappointed that he let that get to him!

Accio Sirius do not be dissapointed in our Snape I am sure like it has already been mentioned there was a deeper meaning to that comment that we are yet to find out about.


Miss Moony - Aug 10, 2004 9:48 am (#1878 of 2956)
I used to really hate Snape, but he's actually starting to grow on me. I guess that's what 5 books times oh, about 300 reads each does to you!

I wonder what other memories Snape put in the penseive before the Occlumency lessons with Harry. Any ideas?


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 10, 2004 10:04 am (#1879 of 2956)
Well its obvious Snape doesnt really mind Harry seeing some of his childhood, with family and the such. Since Im sure itd be impossible to go through a whole mind of memories to extract every bad one, I could only imagine that Snape would focus on James, his feelings for James (if he was jealous, hed certainly not want Harry to know this), and any sort of humility that James caused him at Hogwarts.


Padfoot - Aug 10, 2004 10:07 am (#1880 of 2956)
Edited by Aug 10, 2004 11:07 am
To find themselves both on one side means they'd have to reevaluate all those old feelings and assumptions about the other and, horror of horrors, perhaps admit they were wrong about each other. Which really wouldn't be a problem considering how open-minded they both are.... -Kim

LOL Kim. True, true. I wish we could have seen more of what happened before Harry came into the kitchen.

I wonder what other memories Snape put in the pensieve before the Occlumency lessons with Harry. Any ideas? -Miss Moony

Well I would imagine that Snape put other memories of MWPP taunting him in there. Also, any memory that would reveal which side he believes in. Oh, and memories of his unhappy childhood. At least from now on.


Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 10:13 am (#1881 of 2956)
I really have to agree with Emiko about some of the things that may bother Sirius about Snape being in the Order. I think he is probably very concerned about Snape's treatment of Harry. He knows how Snape hated him and James, and he knows Snape's vindictive nature ... so he knows Harry is bearing the brunt of Snape's hostility.

It is also important to remember how Sirius hated the Dark Arts that were so much a part of his family's life. In school, Snape would have been like a walking example of the family Sirius hated. That alone could have fired the animosity between them, and I think Sirius probably still mistrusts Snape, despite Dumbledore's ringing endorsement.

Finally, I also do not think it is unreasonable of Sirius to be pretty bent out of shape about the fact that Snape planned to hand him over to the Dementors at the end of PoA. Even if I'd LOVED Snape before that, I'd be pretty hostile now.

Now, those of you who are veterans to this site have undoubtedly already read the link below to an article about Snape. I had not, until I found it last night. I was on the Fudge thread and followed a link to an essay suggesting that HE (Fudge) was The Missing Death Eater in the circle at the graveyard in GoF. THAT essay contained a link to an equally fascinating essay about Snape. If you have not read the articles, they are fascinating. They certainly put a whole new spin on both characters.

The most interesting point about Snape, to me, was the comparison of the Muggle torture at the Quidditch World Cup with the incident of James turning Snape upside down in mid-air. As I said, they are interesting articles and worth a look.

Solitaire

I tried to edit for the missing apostrophes ... but they are IN the message box. I don't know why they aren't showing up.


Kasse - Aug 10, 2004 11:43 am (#1882 of 2956)
Sorry to sway off topic here but I would really be curious to see how Snape reacted when the news of James and Lilly's death reached him. I can not see him crying over them or anything like that but something tells me he was not happy about it.

After all you can dislike someone immensely that does not mean that you would want them dead.

We never did see him after Sirius's death did we? I guess we will find out his reaction to that in HBP. I wonder if he will say anything to console Harry.

Just my random thoughts...


T Brightwater - Aug 10, 2004 11:55 am (#1883 of 2956)
Thanks for the lead, Solitaire. That is a fascinating (and comprehensive) essay about Snape.

There seems to be a fair amount of consistency in how JKR presents good and bad characters. (I know, that's an oversimplification.) Her good characters are capable of joy, affection, and laughter. Her bad ones are more likely to sneer than smile; they exhibit malicious glee at the misfortunes of others, like to cause pain, and are incapable of laughing at themselves. Her good characters occasionally slip, but as far as I can tell, the bad ones don't. Maybe I'm "fudging" the evidence - pun definitely intended - so counterexamples are encouraged.

That's what keeps me from trusting Snape completely. Have we ever seen him smile at anything besides someone else's discomfort? Has he ever made a joke that isn't at someone else's expense? Do we ever actually see him happy about anything besides the prospect of Harry being expelled?


Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 12:16 pm (#1884 of 2956)
Brightwater, I have to admit that, up until I read that essay, I was pretty much on the bandwagon that felt that Snape was mean and hateful, but he wasn't ETC (evil to the core). After all, even HE didn't like Umbrige (one HUGE point in his favor in my book).

After reading the essay, I have to admit I'm wavering on Snape. The author makes a lot of good points. To her credit, she presents both the good and the bad with equal strength and back-up. In the end, her suggestion that Snape may be positioning himself so that he can eventually roll over to whatever side comes out on top makes sense ... because it is very "Slytherin-y" and completely Snape-like.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Aug 10, 2004 12:25 pm (#1885 of 2956)
Tom came to a similar conclusion a while back. I'm agreeing about 95 percent, but I still have hopes that when he's backed into a corner he'll choose to side with Dumbledore.

I also consider his dislike of Umbridge to be a point in his favor. :-)


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 10, 2004 1:02 pm (#1886 of 2956)
This may be a little off the "Is Snape going to DD or back to the DE" debate, but some of the stuff in that essay (which I thouroughly enjoyed reading) made me start thinking about this:

They bring up the fact of Snape's treatment of Harry in class. It is true that he seems to expect more out of Harry than most of his classmates (if not all), and it also true that he seems to treat Harry "unfairly" but I believe Snape has his reasons. First of all, one of the main reasons (besides the fact that his mothers blood protected him) that DD decided to place Harry at the Dursleys, away from the wizarding world, was so that Harry would not grow up believing he was some sort of hero with an ego the size of Texas. But now Harry has been in the wizarding world for five years, he is starting to act a little bit "above the law", and I believe that Snape, in his own Snape-ish way, is trying to bring him back down a little. Snape wants to make sure that Harry understands that he is not perfect, and that by believing himself to be so, Harry is leaving himself very open to LV. This was also posted just a little while ago, but I also beleive that Snape wants Harry to really learn Potions, and not just float by, like he lets Draco. I had a coach once, and after I asked her why she yelled at me all the time (I was slightly upset) and she told me that if she stopped yelling at me, thats when I should worry, because I was then beyond hope. Those who are we are hardest on are often the ones we care about the most (although Snape may not show it)

One more thing: It was mentioned that "Snape rarely ever smiles, or makes jokes other than at others expense". I think Snape takes his job very seriously, and since we only see him when he his at work (teaching), he is usually very serious. How do we know that he doesnt go down to his dungeon at night and laughs it up all by himself (Doing what? Who knows.). Or maybe he has some sort of hidden rapport with another teacher. I just cant be so sure that he is constantly cruel when we only see him when something dire is happening or he is in class.


T Brightwater - Aug 10, 2004 1:47 pm (#1887 of 2956)
I made the distinction on the Dumbledore thread between taking one's job seriously (which all of the teachers do except for Lockhart) and taking oneself seriously. Or, as one of my own teachers likes to put it, the difference between being serious and being solemn.

Perhaps I can best illustrate my point by contrasting him with another teacher. McGonagall is very strict and dignified - but after she tells her class that there will be no messing around, she turns her desk into a pig. She may not approve in general of letting her hair down, but she does it occasionally - the Christmas dinner where Hagrid kisses her on the cheek and she blushes and giggles, for example. We see her sobbing with joy when Gryffindor wins the Quidditch Cup, and then there's that little smile she gives Harry after her "inspection" by Umbridge, not to mention the biscuit she offers him when he's expecting a reprimand.

Try and imagine Snape doing anything similar to any of those things. See what I mean?

He has the chance to enjoy a laugh at his own expense in PoA, when he gets a witch's hat with a stuffed vulture on it in a Christmas cracker. If he had cracked a grin and put it on, I would be more inclined to trust him. (Dumbledore put it on instead. I think he'd have done that even if a student had dressed a Dumbledore boggart in Neville's grandmother's clothes - but then I can't imagine anybody having a Dumbledore boggart, except perhaps Voldemort.)

I sympathize with Snape a little myself, if only because I could have ended up rather like him. I finally realized that holding grudges took way too much energy and kept me from enjoying things. I don't know if Snape is ever going to realize that. I can easily see him carrying his hatred of James to his death, noble or ignoble, but it would be gratifying to see him let go. (If there are any Katherine Kurtz fans out there, it would be like Queen Jehana's "conversion" in _King Kelson's Bride_, which made me feel like cheering.)


Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 2:12 pm (#1888 of 2956)
Brightwater, I think I have turned my desk into a pig, too. Of course, I am speaking purely in figurative terms. LOL

Fluviusi Saepio, the interesting thing about that essay is that it points out how just about everything Snape says or does can be interpreted in more than one way--depending on one's perspective. I felt the writer really did a good job of arguing both positions.

Solitaire


Round Pink Spider - Aug 10, 2004 4:23 pm (#1889 of 2956)
I'm a Katherine Kurtz fan!!! We cheered about Jehana too! (Yea, cheeerrr!) Hey, did you ever notice Lupin conjure handfire in the train in PoA?

I was on the Fudge thread and followed a link to an essay suggesting that HE (Fudge) was The Missing Death Eater in the circle at the graveyard in GoF. THAT essay contained a link to an equally fascinating essay about Snape. If you have not read the articles, they are fascinating. They certainly put a whole new spin on both characters.

I tried to go to the essay on Fudge, Solitaire, but the link didn't work. I was curious to see that, because I tried to suggest on the Fudge thread that Fudge was either a DE or a Voldemort sympathizer (they didn't care for the idea at the time). The essay on Snape was AWESOME. But I really think that Snape is (and has to be) a consummate actor, on stage at every minute, pretending to be a DE working undercover at Hogwarts when he is actually a member of the Order working undercover as a DE.

I suspect that Voldemort has his doubts about Snape's loyalty too, and will eventually put him to the test. I half-expect Snape to come out of HBP looking like a loyal DE. But I also think that Snape will turn out to be loyal to the Order in book 7.


Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 4:53 pm (#1890 of 2956)
Sorry, RPS. I set up the link incorrectly. Try this link to the essay about Fudge being The Missing Death Eater and see if it works. I will be ironing my hand for that terrible error.

Solitaire


Round Pink Spider - Aug 10, 2004 5:08 pm (#1891 of 2956)
Thanks, Solitaire! I found that very interesting. I've considered Fudge as a DE or in sympathy with them, but never considered him as a DE on the run. Very intriguing possibility! He does act that way, doesn't he?

Now, now, no hand-ironing, it'll ruin your writing, and you have your students to think of!


Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 6:15 pm (#1892 of 2956)
Until the end of GoF and OotP, I'd always thought of Fudge as a kind of bumbler, someone who "fudges" his way along.

From the end of GoF until he finally admits LV is back, I began to see him as more of a truly evil person. I've frequently thought he was under the Imperious curse, Dumbledore notwithstanding. But I must say, that essay makes a pretty strong case for him as the missing DE. The more I think of it, the better I like it.

Thanks, RPS, for the pass on my hands. They're already looking pretty sorry!

Solitaire


Ann - Aug 10, 2004 6:24 pm (#1893 of 2956)
Solitaire, I enjoyed both essays, too. I found the Snape one more convincing than the one about Fudge, though. I just can't see Voldemort taking on someone who is such an idiot--and who is so bad at hiding his own dreams of taking over the world!

The idea that Snape is only being nasty to Harry because he thinks he'll learn better that way also seems a bit unlikely. There is clearly real animosity there, though of course the aim of teaching Harry could be used in his own mind to justify what he must on one level know is unprofessional behavior. (He's like all those sadists who say, "I hurt you for your own good, to make you stronger!")


Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 6:51 pm (#1894 of 2956)
I agree, Ann--on all points--and feel that Snape's hatred is quite genuine. I'll be very surprised if, at the end of the series, we find out otherwise.

I do think Fudge still has his uses, though. Even idiots can be useful at times--sometimes more useful than people who are TOO smart. They are more easily swayed and manipulated. The problem is what to do with them when they have served their purpose. At least the DEs and Voldemort have no problems there--just A-K them.

Solitaire


Chemyst - Aug 10, 2004 7:50 pm (#1895 of 2956)
When I read the Fudge essay late last winter, it tapped in the final nail to complete my already strong suspicions that Snape was at the graveyard. But Ann says she just can't see Voldemort taking on someone who is such an idiot as Fudge--- Well, fifteen years before, Fudge had not made fifteen years worth of stupid choices! Back then he probably came off more as a lean & hungry up-and-comer; sort of like Percy only without his parents to ground him in family values and more of a Slytherin inclination to take care of himself. Voldemort would have had no trouble controlling a person like that-- it's easier to control someone who has fewer scruples than they have wants.


Hollywand - Aug 10, 2004 8:23 pm (#1896 of 2956)
Let say it's true that Snape is an evil unrepentant Death Eater to his rotten snakey core, that he hates Harry and his dad too, and will turn on Dumbledore and his hair is greasy and his nose is hooked.....

How does the discussion group imagine the future of Hogwarts?

Do you see another Slytherin taking Snape's place as head of the Slytherin House"

Do you see Hogwarts surviving, but without the Slytherins?

Any thoughts most gratefully appreciated....


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 10, 2004 8:26 pm (#1897 of 2956)
"How does the discussion group imagine the future of Hogwarts?"

Boring. Black-and-white. But probably mostly unchanged in reality.

"Do you see another Slytherin taking Snape's place as head of the Slytherin House"

Yes; I can't see Slytherin being disbanded, ever.

"Do you see Hogwarts surviving, but without the Slytherins?"

No, I think if Slytherin goes, so does Hogwarts.


Hollywand - Aug 10, 2004 8:30 pm (#1898 of 2956)
Luke, are you by any chance under the Imperius? Well, I guess you couldn't answer, Hmmm. Severus pay you to answer? ;-)


Archangel - Aug 10, 2004 8:35 pm (#1899 of 2956)
Edited by Aug 10, 2004 9:49 pm
I think Hogwarts will survive intact. Hogwarts wouldn't be Hogwarts without the Slytherin House. Where would the sorting hat place those people whose strengths are the traits that Slytherin viewed as the most important? I mean those traits aren't bad right, it's just the people who exhibited those traits took them to the extreme.

Aristotle advocated in the "Golden Mean" that traits or virtues are not inherently bad but it's when people tend to have too much of it or too little that it becomes bad. Can't one be ambitious without being an outright megalomaniac? ;D

OK back to Snape... In OoP it was shown that his worst memory was being humiliated by the Marauders but I'm sure there were other instances wherein he was humiliated or tricked by these guys. Maybe that was his worst memory because Lily helped him or because she was there! What's worse than being made looked like a fool in front of someone you secretly really, really like?


TomProffitt - Aug 10, 2004 8:42 pm (#1900 of 2956)
Severus's replacement as Head of House would be Sybil Trelawney.

I have tried to fit in my mind what a "good" Slytherin would be like. She's about the best I can come up with of known characters. Her life is defined by a single ambition, to become a seer. That pretty well sums up what it means to be Slytherin doesn't it?
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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 10, 2004 8:46 pm (#1901 of 2956)
"Luke, are you by any chance under the Imperius? Well, I guess you couldn't answer, Hmmm. Severus pay you to answer? ;-)"

No, I'm actually Lord Voldemort. Didn't you know?


Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 9:51 pm (#1902 of 2956)
Other Head of Slytherin House options ... Professor Sinestra, the astronomy teacher? Her name (Sinestra/Sinister?) would seem to be good for Slytherin. The new DADA teacher, whoever that might be? Madam Hooch, the flying instructor? What if a non-Slytherin type like Professor Sprout or Professor Grubbly-Plank was put in charge of Slytherin? Might that be a good move? Just some thoughts ...

Frankly, I see poor Trelawney in Slytherin as a horrible mistake. She would be having death visions 24/7, with all of the little DE kids everywhere she looked.

Solitaire


Elanor - Aug 10, 2004 11:03 pm (#1903 of 2956)
Hi everybody ! I see you had a very interesting conversation this night ! Last evening, I kept on rereading OotP and another thought occured to me (I am always amazed at seeing how each time I reread this books I find something new in it, with subtle clues left innocently everywhere...).

Well, during the first occlumency lesson, Snape said this to Harry :

" I told you to empty yourself of emotion !'

'Yeah? Well, I'm finding that hard at the moment,'Harry snarled.

'Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord !' said Snape savagely. 'Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers ! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter !"

And, I was wondering, what if, speaking of what could happen to Harry, Snape himself just told us what happened to him once? The bitter and tormented spirit student he seems to have been, so easily provoked by James and the others, was he an "easy prey" for Voldemort then, who could penetrate his mind "with absurd ease" and manipulate him afterwards?

If that is true, that means that only DD could have teached him occlumency then, and therefore is fully aware of his past and how Voldemort recruited him, explaining BTW why he now trusts him.

It could also explain why he despises so strongly "weak people" (like Neville) : I think being weak will stay his worst fear. And why he is so harsh with Harry : he wants to open his eyes but his hate for James, and their mutual dislike with Harry, prevents Snape from being able to explain it and prevents Harry from seeing in it nothing but hatred. But I think he really doesn't want that Harry's fate will be like his when Voldemort will try to penetrate his mind. And that's why, as somebody said (Flaevio I think), he asks Harry more than the other students. The more because, if he wants to transfer his hatred for James to Harry, he needs to find his match.


Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 11:27 pm (#1904 of 2956)
It is a good theory, Elanor. I find it very plausible. Snape certainly does sound like he knows what he is talking about when he says the DL will penetrate Harry's mind with "absurd ease."

I was thinking about this whole occlumency/legilimency thing (maybe I should put this on that thread) while cleaning the kitchen earlier (Harry is never out of my mind), and it dawned on me that what Harry was doing with Voldemort, in the snake and elsewhere, was legilimency, right? He was entering Voldemort's mind.

Once Voldemort became aware that Harry could access his thoughts, see what he was seeing/feeling as he saw/felt it, he began putting thoughts INTO Harry's mind ... about the Dept. of Mysteries.

As I thought about this, I began to think about what Snape did during the training sessions. He tried to see Harry's memories. But that was not really what Voldemort was doing, was it? He was trying to OBTRUDE his thoughts and ideas INTO Harry's mind.

Perhaps Snape would have been more successful had he tried this technique. Instead of attempting to access Harry's memories, why not try forcing ideas INTO Harry's head, as Voldemort was doing?

Maybe Snape got it wrong.

Solitaire

PS I would love your opinion of my Dudley Dursley theory. It just came to me! (Maybe someone pushed it into my head!)


Hollywand - Aug 11, 2004 3:19 am (#1905 of 2956)
Great suggestion on Professor Sinistra as a possible replacement for Snape. Maybe considering Snape's replacement will weaken the case that he's the only Slytherin that could lead the house.

I noticed that Harry does see the merit in mind exchange when he wants Snape to read his mind concerning Sirius in Dumbledore's office. Harry does seem to be pretty blind when Severus tries to convince him how vulnerable his mind is to Lord Voldemort. And as you point out Elanor and Solitaire, Snape has probably been at the mercy of Voldemort's tactics.

Ironically, once Voldemort completely takes over Harry's mind, Sirius does in fact defend Harry from beyond the veil from Voldemort by flooding Harry's heart and mind with love and grief (another emotion the Dark Lord knows not) placing Harry beyond the reach of mind control.


Kasse - Aug 11, 2004 4:57 am (#1906 of 2956)
If Severus was to be replaced as Head of House wouldn't he have to be replace by another Slytherin? I am asking because I do not see how Sprout, Trelawney, Grubbly-Plank and Hooch could be contenders.....someone please explain this to me.


TomProffitt - Aug 11, 2004 5:01 am (#1907 of 2956)
Kasse, the problem is we don't know of any other teachers who are definitely Slytherins. I threw Trelawney's name into the argument because she was the only one I knew enough about that I thought had a chance of being Slytherin. It's all guess work, really, we just don't have enough evidence to make a good call.


Kasse - Aug 11, 2004 5:06 am (#1908 of 2956)
oh ok, thanks Tom i get it now. Sorry it is early and I am a little solw this morning....


T Brightwater - Aug 11, 2004 5:13 am (#1909 of 2956)
Elanor, I like your theory too. I'm not sure Snape isn't accusing his present self as well as remembering something that happened to him. He can still be provoked; he showed that several times in PoA and OotP. Worse yet, it's possible that he doesn't realize that his hatred for James and Sirius leaves _him_ vulnerable as well.


Ann - Aug 11, 2004 5:14 am (#1910 of 2956)
Solitaire & Chemyst, you may be right (many, many posts ago) that Fudge was more impressive in his youth--I just thought that, without his current position, such a fool would have little to offer. So you may be right that he's a DE; on the other hand, I still think it more likely that JKR has used him to illustrate yet another way that the non-Death Eaters can do as much harm as DEs.

I, too, really liked Elanor's observations about the first Occlumancy lesson (that Snape is warning Harry about a weakness that he himself had fallen prey to), particularly in that it explains his antipathy towards Neville, which I've always felt was overdone. So perhaps Snape's boggart is actually...himself!


Elanor - Aug 11, 2004 6:04 am (#1911 of 2956)
Thanks T Brightwater and Ann ! And you're perfectly right too : I do think Snape's worst enemy is himself, and that he is aware of it. That's why I think he will remain faithful to DD : he knows what being under Voldemort's control is, he knows what led him to that, and I don't think he will fall again into the trap on his own free will.

But, in the same time, he doesn't realize that he still has weaknesses, and his hatred for James and Sirius is certainly his greatest. On the other hand, it proves that he is after all human. If he has buried in himself all his other emotions, maybe has he allowed himself just this one to remain, thinking (as someone said many posts ago) that this is the part of himself he could let Voldemort see quite safely. But is he right about this? I doubt it...

Yet, DD is the one who knows him best, and I think he is aware of this weakness, especially after the failure of the occlumency lessons (even if I still think that, in that occasion, Harry has to share the blame !). Let's hope he'll be able to help him !

BTW : I love your boggart idea Ann !


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 11, 2004 6:16 am (#1912 of 2956)
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Snape's duties prevent him from being the Head of Slytherin House in the next book, and so a new teacher is made head. My guess would be the new DADA teacher.


constant vigilance - Aug 11, 2004 6:38 am (#1913 of 2956)
Thank you Solitaire for the links! The editorial about Snape was brilliant!

I'm still sitting on the fence about where Snape's loyalties lie. The author's evidence about why Snape may still be a Death-Eater contained a lot of details that I had missed--especially the stuff regarding the one man who flipped Mrs. Roberts upside down and the one man two spaces away from Lucius at the graveyard.

Part of me wants to believe that Dumbledore is right about trusting Snape. I have seen instances in the book that illustrate Snape's loyalties, such as showing those in the hospital wing at the end of GoF his Dark Mark and him repeatedly saving Harry. However, I'm hung up about Snape's response to Harry at the end of GoF when Harry is names Lucius as one of the Death-Eaters. Why does this bother him to the point of reacting? His is extrodinarily talented at hiding his emotions, yet at this remark he flinches a bit.

Also, I have become more skeptical of Snape since the Occlumency lessons. If he was spying on the Death-Eaters and Voldemort, and in somewhat close connection with Lucius why didn't he know about the plan to impose a thought in Harry's mind that involved Kreacher taking orders from the Malfoys? I have rationalized this by arguing that maybe Snape couldn't spy as much on the DE's because he was busy at Hogwarts, yet he explicitly tells Harry that it is himself not Harry whose job it is to see what Voldimort and his cronnies are up to. Plus, the plan involving Kreacher was in the works for sometime. He went to Narcissa before Christmas and the "dream" Harry recieved was sometime during the OWL exams. I just feel like if Snape was such a reliable spy for The Order, than why did he know nothing about this specific plan? yes, he warned Harry that something like this would happen, but he could of been a teensy bit more specific. Unless, of course, he knew nothing about this plan.

I apologize for talking in cirlces. If this is unclear, I will be happy to re-phrase.


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 11, 2004 7:07 am (#1914 of 2956)
I have a thought.....what if they did make the new DADA teacher the head of Slytherin house, and what if it was Snape himself? We are not really sure why DD has denied Snape the DADA post for so long, and perhaps it has something to do with Voldemort and being a former DE. But maybe (just maybe) with LV back, Dumbledore will have some sort of good reason to put Snape as the new DADA teacher. Any thoughts?


Ann - Aug 11, 2004 7:31 am (#1915 of 2956)
Interesting post, Constant vigilance! But with regard to the Mugglenet essay on Snape, you say The author's evidence about why Snape may still be a Death-Eater contained a lot of details that I had missed--especially the stuff regarding the one man who flipped Mrs. Roberts upside down and the one man two spaces away from Lucius at the graveyard.

I agree with you and the author that the Muggle-flipping incident is a significant connection (though significant of what, I'm not sure), and Snape may have taken part in this as part of his "cover." But I don't think Snape was at the Graveyard scene in GoF: he was at Hogwarts when Harry arrived back there with Cedric's body, and was at Dumbledore's right hand when they apprehended Moody/Crouch. There was no time to leave the grounds of Hogwarts and return--not to mention what Voldemort would have had to say to him at that juncture if he'd taken off without permission.

I think I trust Snape, ultimately, to do the right thing, though not necessarily in a way that one might want him to. This is not just because Dumbledore trusts him, though that goes a long way. But Snape is too intelligent not to know right from wrong and not to see through his own rationalizations. And I think he has too much pride in himself and his own righteousness to do what he knows is wrong...at least for someone else's (Voldemort's) benefit.


Sara Elizabeth - Aug 11, 2004 11:33 am (#1916 of 2956)
I have a quick question. How can Snape be spying on the Death-Eaters if in the first book Professor Quirrel, when Voldemort is with him, states he knows that Snape was the one muttering the counter curse during the Quiddich match. Also, Snape confronts Quirrel in the hallway. Even if Voldemort wasn't with Quirrel at the time, I would think that would be something Quirrel would mention to him later on. Too me, it seems as if Voldemort must know Snape has changed sides, so I don't think he is in their inner circle so to speak. Or am I missing something? Always possible!

And by the way, I think all Snape needs is the love of a good woman!


Kasse - Aug 11, 2004 11:38 am (#1917 of 2956)
And by the way, I think all Snape needs is the love of a good woman! - Sara

Lol, you could be right about that one Sara!


Padfoot - Aug 11, 2004 11:41 am (#1918 of 2956)
Sara, I think Voldemort did think that Snape had switched sides. Then Snape went to Voldy at the end of GoF and groveled. Probably telling Voldemort he was a double agent for him. In reality (ha!) I think Snape is working for DD. Hope that made sense.


Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 12:20 pm (#1919 of 2956)
Constant vigilance, I do not think you are talking in circles at all. Snape is arguably the most difficult character to buttonhole. Along with Dumbledore, he is probably the most brilliant and certainly the most knowledgeable Hogwarts teacher when it comes to Dark Arts.

The interesting thing about that essay is that the writer argues so ably for both sides of the Snape issue. She presents really solid evidence through Snape's actions that Snape is, in his heart, still a DE. She then takes the same evidence and, by adding a slightly different spin, shows that Snape is simply exploiting his own personal history and connections to protect Harry. Snape's moral ambiguity keep us from truly knowing who and what he is.

In your post, you bring up a lot of troubling "Snape is a DE" points, the most troublesome being that if Snape knew so much about the DEs' plans, why didn't he disclose them? But perhaps he did, "off camera," to Dumbledore. We don't know that.

I think that, until we know WHY Dumbledore believes Snape, we won't know whether or not to believe him ... and maybe not even then. If Snape is an accomplished Occlumens/Legilimens, then perhaps he is fooling even Dumbledore.

The truth is that Snape has to be a convincing DE, even if he IS truly on the side of DD and Harry. There is no other way for him to pull it off. That's what is so hard about it all.

Ann: "There was no time to leave the grounds of Hogwarts and return--not to mention what Voldemort would have had to say to him at that juncture if he'd taken off without permission.

I disagree, Ann. Snape had plenty of time to disapparate from the graveyard back to the school (and if Voldemort truly believed him to be HIS faithful double agent, he would have understood Snape's need to split in a hurry). In all the confusion, he could have easily managed it. Unless he was literally at DD's elbow or within sight of one of the other Hogwarts teachers (other than Moody/Crouch, who wouldn't count) the entire time Harry was in the maze AND away at the graveyard, we really do not know whether he was in the graveyard or not.

Remember, there would be a lot of noise from the spectators, and there WAS noise and yelling going on with the contestants in the maze. I tend to think it would have been a lot like being at a football game--noisy and chaotic, easy to get separated from someone, slip away for a time, and return suddenly ... as if one had been there the entire time. Just my 2 knuts ...

Solitaire


Annika - Aug 11, 2004 12:32 pm (#1920 of 2956)
Even if he did apparate near the grounds, he could not apparate into Hogwarts.


Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 12:44 pm (#1921 of 2956)
Oh, shoot! I forgot that. **off to iron hands**


Steve Newton - Aug 11, 2004 1:08 pm (#1922 of 2956)
But, where there is one port key there can be another.


Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 1:33 pm (#1923 of 2956)
Good point, Steve. **putting ironed hands in ice**

Would this mean that Snape and Barty/Moody were in league? Remember that Barty/Moody turned the Cup into a portkey that would take Harry to the graveyard. Presumably, he set this spell on it AFTER Dumbledore had put on the one that would take him to the winner's circle. Barty/Moody's would supercede Dumbledore's. Could he have made a portkey for Snape, too? Or perhaps Snape could have made one of his own, on the spot, as DD has done.

If Voldemort knew about Barty, Jr., would Barty have known about Snape, too ... and vice versa? Remember that night Harry was returning to his room under the cloak, carrying the map and the dragon egg? He had seen Barty Crouch's dot searching Snape's office and was on his way to nose around when he got his foot caught in the trick stair.

Snape and Filch had Harry trapped (albeit under the invisibility cloak) when Crouch/Moody showed up. That's when he (Crouch/Moody) took the Marauder's Map and got rid of the others, not allowing Harry to see that Barty Crouch's dot would have been exactly where Fake Moody was standing.

Anyway, back to my point ... which was did Barty know about Snape? Could that have been the real reason he was searching Snape's office ... to determine whether or not Snape was a TRUSTED DE or just a pretender?

I suppose that is as clear as mud ... but hopefully someone will understand what I mean.

Solitaire


Ann - Aug 11, 2004 2:10 pm (#1924 of 2956)
I thought Crouch was stealing the ingredients for the Polyjuice Potion he needed to stay in Moody's form--that's what Snape accuses Harry of later on. And from Snape's obvious fear of Moody, I don't think they can have been in league--that is, Crouch hadn't told Snape about the plot. Why should he, since Snape was, to his mind, one of the DEs who walked free, rather than staying loyal and going to Azkaban? And he would presumably know about Dumbledore's statements before the Wizangemot--it would be too great and unnecessary a risk.

And, as to Snape's using a portkey to get to Voldemort, I don't think it is that simple. It seems to me that the person making the portkey has to control both ends of the trip--or at the very least, know where they are. Snape would have had no idea where Voldemort was. (Presumably, you can apparently apparate to where someone is, rather than a place, since that was what the DEs were supposed to do when Voldemort called.) And if making portkeys was such a simple thing, I wonder why Dumbledore needed the thestrals...


Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 2:24 pm (#1925 of 2956)
As I said, Ann, it would all hinge on whether and how much the DEs knew about each other. It seems that on all occasions when we have seen them, they are robed and masked. This makes me wonder who knew what about whom? Security would be necessary to Voldemort. I'm willing to bet that no one DE knew EVERYONE who was a DE. But maybe I'm wrong there.

This is what I was asking up above ... did Barty/fake Moody know about Snape? Did Snape know about Barty/fake Moody? IF both were trusted DEs, they might have known about each other ... or one might have known about the other ... it was all speculation as to how Snape MIGHT have gotten to the graveyard and back, IF indeed he had even been there.

I don't understand what you mean about the thestrals.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Aug 11, 2004 2:56 pm (#1926 of 2956)
Solitaire, I think you're right that not all the DE's knew each other. Karkaroff, for example, didn't mention Malfoy, Nott, Crabbe, Goyle, Macnair, etc. Since Sirius says that the Lestranges were part of the same "gang" of Slytherins that Snape hung out with, and since the Lestranges and Barty were working together, one would think that Snape and Barty knew each other but it isn't certain.

Taking off from this point, is it remotely possible that Snape didn't know Lucius Malfoy was a Death Eater? Or thought that he really had changed sides? Is that why he reacted so strongly to Harry naming Lucius as having been present at Voldemort's little get-together?


Emiko - Aug 11, 2004 3:19 pm (#1927 of 2956)
Okay, that little flinching thing Snape does at the end of GoF seems to be a hot topic lately. And, I took it to mean something completly different than others seem to believe.

At the time, Harry was acting extremely rashly and in the heat of anger/shock/godknowswhatelse. While we would excuse that given the events of the evening, I find it extremely doubtful that Snape would do the same. We already know that Snape sees the lack of emotional control as a major weakness, at that moment Harry was showing no emotional constraint and did not think a bit about what he was saying. As Fudge pointed out- Harry was merely shouting out names of DEs that had already been named. (correct me if I'm wrong on this) He, for the most part, could have shouted out those same names had he NOT been in the graveyard (except for Nott, I believe) And this is aside from the fact that Rita Skeeter had convinced the entire wizarding world (angain, for the most part) that Harry is insane/stupid. If DD and the rest wanted to convince Fudge that LV was back, Harry waking up and rashly shouting out the names of various DEs was the worst thing that could happen. In fact, on the convincing Fudge thing, the best thing Harry could have done was to remain silent and pretend to be alseep. It probablly wouldn't have worked, but at the time, Snape would surely have thought that out, DD probablly thought of it too, who knows. But, I took Snape's action as an attempt to silence Harry, who actually noticed, and paused to look at him although Snape's eyes "flew back to Fudge" . Why'd Snape look away, maybe because he changed his mind, maybe because he realized that if Harry shut up now, it'd be really weird, because he didn't want to call attention to himself, because DD had told him sonething before hand.... I dunno. But even McGonagall changed the subject while Fudge was still ranting on Harry... and all the teachers drop the subject once Harry stops shouting. I must go eat dinner now, but I'm looking forward to comments and other ideas, because I don't think that I've gotten everything in my theory!


Siriusly - Aug 11, 2004 3:38 pm (#1928 of 2956)
I was under the impression that DD and Snape knew about Barty Jr. When Harry uses DD's pensieve and DD shows him how, doesn't he pull up Bertha Jorkin's memory and as she revolves around asks - why she followed him? I always thought he was talking about Peter Petigrew.

And what is up with the foe-glass. Why do DD and McG appear, disappear and then reappear in it. Why is Snape let alone looking out of the foe glass?

And how about Percy for Slytherin, he sure has become ambitious lately!


Shanda - Aug 11, 2004 4:36 pm (#1929 of 2956)
I do not believe that Snape was at the graveyard that night because Voldy says (and correct me if i am wrong. I don't have my book with me right now), that his only true faithfull servent is at hogwarts meaning Barty Jr. I guess you could say that Snape was there and Voldy just didn't want to let the other DEs know that he was a spy, but I doubt it. I think that Snape is on DD's side. He just has a hard of showing it especially to Harry. He has a lot of resentment towards the whole Potter family. As for the foe glass I have no idea.


Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 4:53 pm (#1930 of 2956)
Brightwater, I just reread that first Pensieve chapter in GoF. Karkaroff did indeed say that Voldemort had always operated in greatest secrecy and he alone knew who all of the DEs were.

I also noticed that the names Harry gave at the end of GoF--Avery, Nott, Crabbe, Goyle, Macnair, and Malfoy--were NOT mentioned in any of those scenes Harry saw in the Pensieve ... so how would Harry have known about them having been DEs if they hadn't been in the circle at the Graveyard?

Fudge says Harry could have read their names in old reports of the trials from years ago, but that seems unlikely. Where would Harry ever have seen those reports? It makes no sense.

Also ... back in the Pensieve chapter, Dumbledore mentions the disappearance of a Muggle named Frank Bryce, which the Ministry has ignored. I've always wondered why Harry didn't tell DD about the old man he had seen in his dream the previous summer, the one who overheard Wormtail and Voldemort talking about Bertha Jorkins. After all, Dumbledore had shown him the younger Bertha and had talked about her disappearance and the disappearance of Bryce. Had Harry just forgotten seeing the old man in his dream? Did he just not connect THAT old man with Frank Bryce? I've always wondered about that ... He does remember him when he sees him come out of Voldemort's wand.

Siriusly, Dumbledore and Snape did indeed know about Barty, Jr., having been sent to Azkaban. I was speculating only--saying that IF Snape were NOW back in Voldemort's good graces, would he have known that Barty was using polyjuice to impersonate Moody, and would Barty have known that Snape was really still a DE. But those were only speculations, since we do not know if Snape is a DE or not, even though that Mugglenet essay suggests he may be. Does that make sense?

Okay, sorry to ramble. I hope this isn't too confusing.

Solitaire


Siriusly - Aug 11, 2004 5:20 pm (#1931 of 2956)
I wasn't talking about being sent to Azkaban. I just had the feeling that DD knew the story of Bertha meeting Wormtail in the forest and following him already (see previous). I could only think that Snape may have picked up a thread or two from Fake Moody with a little Legilimency (yeah, I had to go look up how to spell it). I mean Snape and DD do not appear to have to actually say the word to do it.


Ann - Aug 11, 2004 6:02 pm (#1932 of 2956)
With regard to Frank Bryce, Harry forgets the dream almost instantly (we see him trying to remember Bertha's name, but he can't). And I don't think he ever hears Frank Bryce's name, or only once, and it wouldn't have made much of an impression, given all the other things he was having to take in at that point. It is the omniscient narrator in that scene that tells us about Frank and his connection with the Riddle murders. I've always wondered from what viewpoint Harry saw things in that dream--it doesn't seem that it was Voldemort's yet. Anyway, when Bryce comes out of the wand, does Harry really recognize him? The narration says only "an old man whom Harry had seen only in a dream," but it doesn't really say that Harry recognizes him and connects him with that initial vision.


Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 6:18 pm (#1933 of 2956)
True, Ann ... but I thought he did remember the old man, even if he didn't know his name. Perhaps not. But the scene in that dream is sort of eerie in more ways than one, since Frank was the one always believed to have killed the Riddles ... and it was Tom (Voldemort) who did it. I'll bet he never recognized Voldemort for that "dark haired and pale" teenage boy he'd seen hanging around the Riddle house ...

Solitaire


Ann - Aug 11, 2004 7:17 pm (#1934 of 2956)
Well, probably not before he was killed, anyway, being that Voldemort was in his red, raw, hideously-ugly, eewwwww somewhat-baby-like stage. And after death, who knows?


Emiko - Aug 11, 2004 7:19 pm (#1935 of 2956)
Siriously- I don't understand what you mean by dissappearing and reappearing DD and McG- did I miss something? If you're talking about the end of GoF, I assumed that the moment they were behind the door (the moment Crouch/Moody was really in danger) they became visible in the foe-glass, along with Snape... And the line about Snape's face still being visible- I thought that was just a Snape refleting on himself moment, and that DD and McG were visible also, Snape just wasn't paying attention to that part. Am I wrong? I would love to hear your explanation/comments!


LooneyLuna - Aug 12, 2004 5:55 am (#1936 of 2956)
Hello, all. I'm a little new, so forgive me if this has been brought up previously.

I have something to add to Round Pink Spider's theory that Snape betrayed the DE's because of his life-debt to James. Could it be that Snape hates Harry so much because Harry is the embodiment of Snape's failure to save James' life? Also, we don't know how this type of magic works, but could the life-debt have been transferred to Harry after James' death and that Snape resents it?

Just thinking out loud. Smile julie


Siriusly - Aug 12, 2004 9:16 am (#1937 of 2956)
Emiko- My understanding (and I haven't read it in a while)is all three appear in the foe glass when they are behind the door. Harry sees this. They stupefy Fake Moody and DD and McG go to take care of Moody. Moody is now unconscious, is Harry now the person the foe glass focuses on and Snape is the only one reflected?


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 12, 2004 10:57 am (#1938 of 2956)
Im confused (and obviously need to read this part again). Does the foe glass show your foes just to you, or does it show the foes of the owner or what? Ahhhh... I hate being confused.


Miss Moony - Aug 12, 2004 11:53 am (#1939 of 2956)
I was under the impression that the foe glass showed the enemies of the owner. Otherwise, wouldn't Harry have seen Fake Moody in the glass when he was in the office the first time?


septentrion - Aug 12, 2004 12:03 pm (#1940 of 2956)
but Harry saw DD, McG and Snape in the foe glass. So they show the foe of the owner but the said foes can be seen by anyone else.


Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 12, 2004 12:45 pm (#1941 of 2956)
So if I own a foe glass, and Joe is my foe. Then I can see Joe in my foe glass, but Bob who is also in the room can see Joe in the foe glass although Bob and Joe are not foes. I think I understand now. (by the way, Bob and Joe are just my example people.)


Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 12:50 pm (#1942 of 2956)
Perhaps the glass shows the foes of whoever happens to be in possession of the glass at the time. I'll have to reread that section. Question: If Snape is appearing and reappearing in the glass, could that be a hint of wavering loyalties?

Solitaire


Shanda - Aug 12, 2004 1:44 pm (#1943 of 2956)
I think that the foe glass shows the foes of the person in possession of the glass. doesn't the foe glass belong to real moody? I thought that Barty Jr. took it with the rest of Moody's things.

Couldn't the reason why the glass shows Snape appearing and reappearing is because Barty Jr. is undecided on Snape.


Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 2:06 pm (#1944 of 2956)
Yes, that is pretty much what I said above. However, what Barty thought would not be what makes someone waver, I think. The Foe-glass shows what it perceives to be the truth. That is how it helps its owner.

If it is indeed showing Snape as fading in and out, I think that could be accounted for in two ways: One, Snape is a double agent, so the Foe-Glass is not sure how to classify him. Two, Snape himself is undecided about which side he will ultimately serve.

That is how I see it.

Solitaire


Shanda - Aug 12, 2004 2:19 pm (#1945 of 2956)
Sorry Solitaire. didn't mean to repeat but after rereading your post I realized I did. I'll read more carefully. Now I am blushing.

I do think that Snape has decided which side he is on. I think he will always be loyal to DD because it seems like that DD has been the only one who ever trusted Snape and given him a chance.


Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 3:09 pm (#1946 of 2956)
No problem, Shanda. I get all wound up over a post sometimes, and in my haste to respond to it I skip over other posts ... only to reread and discover I've repeated something I missed the first time around! I just go iron my hands or slam my head in the freezer ... then I'm okay 'til the next goof!

I hope you are correct about Snape, but my jury is still out there. I juuuuuuust can't quite tell about him.

Solitaire


Siriusly - Aug 12, 2004 3:15 pm (#1947 of 2956)
It is not Snape who is fading in and out. DD and McG disappear from the glass while Fake moody is stupified. Snape is the only one that remains. I questioned this as Harry was in the room with Fake Moody alone before "our heroes" show up. My question is..if Fake Moody is knocked out - did the foe glass start to show Harry's foes as he was the only other person in the room prior to the people from the mirror actually arriving in the room (I know that was confusing..but I'm tired)?


constant vigilance - Aug 12, 2004 3:50 pm (#1948 of 2956)
Siriusly, are you sure Dumbledore and McGonagall actually stopped appearing in the Foe-glass? The passage in the book says "Snape followed him [Dumbledore], looking into the Foe-glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." (US paperback pg. 679)

I have always been confused about the Foe-glass, and this particular scene was especially befuddling. It isn't clear whether or not Snape could see DD and McG in the Foe-glass, only that he saw himself.


Siriusly - Aug 12, 2004 3:59 pm (#1949 of 2956)
It says "where is own face was still visable" to me this says he is the only one left in the mirror. I guess she could have just neglected to say that the others were there but....

I don't know what to think now! Let's owl the Ministry and charge JK with muggle-baiting!

Page 683..Snape hands DD the Veritaserum and they all three are mentioned in the glass again. What does it mean?


constant vigilance - Aug 12, 2004 4:13 pm (#1950 of 2956)
"Let's owl the Ministry and charge JK with muggle-baiting!"

very funny... She really is exceptionally talented at writing his character. We get just enough hints to sway us one way, then she shifts us in the other direction. She words things so perfectly that you can't quite figure out how to interpret them. I mean having Moody/Crouch saying if there's one thing he, Moody, and Crouch Sr. can't stand is a Death Eater who went free was brilliant!

So, I still don't know about Snape with the Foe-glass. Does "his own face" mean just his face, or are the others included but not mentioned? Oh, bother. Where's Book 6!!??
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 12, 2004 6:16 pm (#1951 of 2956)
That foe glass has always bothered me, not sure is right thread for this, but here goes...

...Dumbledore got up, bent over the man on the floor, and pulled him into a sitting position against the wall beneath the Foe-Glass, in which the reflections of Dumbledore,Snape, and McGonagall were still glaring down upon them all."...why would Dumbledore be showing if he's currently squatting down under the glass?

Also, when Moody/Barty Jr. was explaining the foe glass...""Oh that's my Foe-Glass. See them out there, skulking around? I'm not really in trouble until I see the whites of their eyes. That's when I open my trunk." pp 224 US

We saw the contents of the trunk when Dumbledore opened all 7 locks, what I didn't see was something that might help Moody/Barty Jr when he opened it "when he see's the whites of their eyes".

Any ideas?


Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 6:41 pm (#1952 of 2956)
If Snape looks into a foe-glass and sees just his own face, I would presume that means he is his own worst enemy.

Twinkles, about your "whites of the eyes" comment ... Crouch is pretending to be Moody at this point, and he probably figures Moody has some good stuff in there that would be useful. But maybe I'm looking at it with hindsight and missing something.

As far as DD, McG and Snape still being in the foe-glass when they are pulling Barty up and preparing to give him the veritaserum ... perhaps that is because the foe-glass is still showing them as enemies to the fake Moody/now Barty Jr. Remember, they have returned from the errands on which DD sent them. Perhaps, if real Moody was out of the chest, the foe-glass would return to showing only HIS enemies (which would hopefully be just Barty).

Okay, does that work? I suppose it is about as clear as polyjuice potion.

Solitaire


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 12, 2004 7:02 pm (#1953 of 2956)
Yep, was about that clear :-)

Soli, "Crouch is pretending to be Moody at this point, and he probably figures Moody has some good stuff in there that would be useful." At that point Barty had Moody locked in 7th compartment of trunk. Do you think maybe he had also looked in the other six at some point?

Original question..." beneath the Foe-Glass, in which the reflections of Dumbledore,Snape, and McGonagall were still glaring down upon them all."...why would Dumbledore be showing if he's currently squatting down under the glass?

All three origionally showed, then when Snape, er, Professor Snape walked up and looked, saw only his reflection, but, as you said, after Snape and McG returned from errands why would the three of them still be glaring down upon them all"?


S.E. Jones - Aug 12, 2004 7:10 pm (#1954 of 2956)
I think Snape was just staring at his own reflection, though the other two were still there. As to why they were there, Crouch Jr was in possession of the Foe-Glass so it would show his enemies (Dumbledore, McGonagall, and Snape), or at least those he percieved as enemies (maybe Snape was staring because he was surprised to find another DE thought he was an enemy?). Anyway, that's the way I read the description of a Foe-Glass. That's why Crouch Jr said he wouldn't be worried until he saw the whites of their eyes, or whatever the quote is, because his enemies will only be made clear in the mirror when they are close.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 12, 2004 7:15 pm (#1955 of 2956)
Ok, I have now officially seceded in confusing myself, time for a butterbeer and a reread or two, or three... toddles off to make a stoat sandwich.


T Brightwater - Aug 12, 2004 7:17 pm (#1956 of 2956)
As I understand it, the Foe-Glass isn't a mirror, it shows you how close your enemies are. The images become clearer as they get closer. (Hence the "whites of their eyes" comment.) It just happens that "Moody's" Foe-Glass is facing the door when DD, McG, and Snape break in.

As for Snape being his own worst enemy, I'll go along with that, Foe-Glass or not!


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 12, 2004 7:29 pm (#1957 of 2956)
I'll second that!

"As for Snape being his own worst enemy, I'll go along with that, Foe-Glass or not!"


Emiko - Aug 12, 2004 8:07 pm (#1958 of 2956)
Okay, I still believe that Snape, McG, and DD were in the foe glass, THE WHOLE TIME- and JKR just didn't have to say that.... Is there a direct quote (aside from the Snape one) that suggests otherwise? I think I'm with TwinklingBlueEyes about being confused! Oh, and with the trunk/weapons and when it's time... Note that JKR didn't tell us everything in the trunk: " Harry watched, astounded, as Dumbledore placed the third, fourth, fifth, and sixth keys in their respective locks, reopening the trunk each time, and revealing different contents each time." But she never says what the contents are- so presumably, it's what's in those compartments Moody would use if danger was present.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 12, 2004 8:13 pm (#1959 of 2956)
Ok, I think now I know where my confusion comes in.... "Snape, McG, and DD were in the foe glass, THE WHOLE TIME- and JKR just didn't have to say that...."

I am seeing the foe glass as Moody's, not as an object that shows it's, hmm, owners view of enemies.

Not sure if I just unconfused my self, or just confunded myself...

If my post makes absolutely no sense, please over-look it. (danged hyphen)


Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 8:59 pm (#1960 of 2956)
*handing counter-befuddlement draughts to all who are confused, including me**

S.E. Jones said what I was trying to say, only she said it much more clearly than I did.

Regarding her reason for Snape seeing his reflection, it would tend to lend credence to the "Snape is a DE" theory. Then again, it could just be reminding us of what fake Moody said about hating DEs that walked free. Remember that Barty Jr. felt that way about them, too.

Solitaire


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 12, 2004 9:08 pm (#1961 of 2956)
Pass that bottle this way please! Am beginning to wish I sat on my hand's! Ironing won't do the trick!


Ann - Aug 12, 2004 9:52 pm (#1962 of 2956)
I, too, just went back and read this scene over again. From the comment about Dumbledore bending over while his image continues to stare out of the Foe Glass, I agree with T Brightwater that the Foe Glass doesn't work like a mirror. The images in it work somewhat independently of the people they belong to, although the clarity of the image reflects the closeness of the threat to the owner, in this case Crouch in his Moody suit.

The scene first tells us that all three are visible, and then that Snape sees himself as he enters, and then, after the errands, that they are all visible in it. It seems most probable that all three, as enemies who are very much an immediate danger to Crouch, were visible in it the whole time, even when Snape and McGonagall are off doing errands. If Snape is surprised to see the image (though it is the image that is glaring, not him, so that isn't clear), it is probably because he hasn't previously been in "Moody's" office, and so hasn't seen the Foe Glass before. But I find the fact that he stands with Dumbledore and McGonagall as an enemy of Crouch a very good sign.


Elanor - Aug 12, 2004 11:16 pm (#1963 of 2956)
I think just like you Ann : if we hadn't seen Snape in that mirror, it would have been more worrying for Harry !


Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 11:40 pm (#1964 of 2956)
Good point!


septentrion - Aug 13, 2004 5:34 am (#1965 of 2956)
maybe Snape was just looking at his image in the glass because he was surprised to see how he looked ?


Doris Crockford - Aug 13, 2004 8:28 am (#1966 of 2956)
Maybe Snape's just never seen a Foe-Glass before, and was trying to figure out what it was and what it did (and how dangerous it was). (and maybe Barty Jr. would have hidden under an invisibility cloak, which was in the second compartment of the trunk, had he seen the whites of people's eyes)


T Brightwater - Aug 13, 2004 8:59 am (#1967 of 2956)
Maybe it was at that moment that he realized, deep down, whose side he was truly on.


Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 13, 2004 9:07 am (#1968 of 2956)
I think that was the mioment also realized he could say yes when and if Dumbledore gave Severus a special assignment.


Good Evans - Aug 13, 2004 9:41 am (#1969 of 2956)
I've just been relistening to PS/SS - I have long assumed that LV does not know about Snape but simply suspects, and of course I have assumed that the job that DD asked Snape to do at the end of GoF was to make contact with DE and carry on as before (spying).

I am not sure now though as Quirrell clearly knew that Snape suspected him of wanting the philosphers stone,snape showed his hand as allegiance to DD and he tried to keep harry alive when quirrell bewitched his broom, and quirrell knew this. Surely if quirrell knew all this then so did LV?

So is LV simply humouring snape or is his role now not the same as it was?

any thoughts? - apologies if this was discussed earlier I had a quick flick thorugh the posts but didn't see anything.


Steve Newton - Aug 13, 2004 9:47 am (#1970 of 2956)
I don't see how Snape not wanting Quirrell getting the SS/PS would alert Lord V. Snape had no way of knowing that Lord V was controlling Q and Lord V didn't seem to think that he should let on. This may be the scary thing to Snape.



Siriusly - Aug 13, 2004 9:47 am (#1971 of 2956)
Maybe Snape is not actually appearing in front of his evilness. Maybe he is just mind reading (i can't spell the other)Volde or the death eaters to find out what is going on. Or he turns into a bat or Nagini and "hangs" around the bat cave, I mean Volde's place..


Good Evans - Aug 13, 2004 9:57 am (#1972 of 2956)
Steve - my thoughts were around the whole way that snape reacted round quirrell - if quirrell passed this on - it should at least make LV suspect he is not loyal to him. 9keeping harry alive being the biggest thing which quirrell refers to so blatantly knew that he had dome that. snape should also be aware after the event and very wary - he would have to be a jolly good liar to reappraoch LV - but we will see...

Siriusly - I love the idea of snape "hanging around" and listening


Solitaire - Aug 13, 2004 11:17 am (#1973 of 2956)
If Voldemort was in the back of Quirrell's head, I should think he had access to anything Snape said to Quirrell--or anything Quirrell said ABOUT Snape to Harry down in the dungeon. Voldemort was certainly listening and giving directions to Quirrell there, wasn't he?

I think it is also safe to believe that Quirrell was consulting with Voldemort the entire time he was trying to gain access to the stone--for assistance on how to get past all of the obstacles (one of which was obviously Snape, who mistrusted him and was continually following him).

These are the things that would make Snape's return to the DEs as a spy so very dangerous. If Voldemort WAS able to overhear any threats or conversations between Snape and Quirrell, then wouldn't he alert the DEs as to Snape's true allegiances? And if not ... why not?

Solitaire


Ann - Aug 13, 2004 11:27 am (#1974 of 2956)
When Voldemort was in Quirrell's head, he obviously suspected Snape. Snape had been described as a traitor to Voldemort and on the side of DD in the Wizangemot, and one can assume that it was quite widely known, especially by other Hogwarts teachers. And Voldemort says in GoF that he thinks Snape has left him forever (I've come around on that one). So Quirrell did not tell Snape that he was getting the stone for Voldemort, and Snape could easily use this fact to explain to Voldemort why he got in Quirrell's way.

Whether Snape knew about the Diary and Lucius's plot is more of a question for me. I think those two have a closer, though not necessarily friendly, relationship.


Padfoot - Aug 13, 2004 11:35 am (#1975 of 2956)
Edited by Aug 13, 2004 12:35 pm
I do not think Snape knew about the diary and Lucius' scheme. He would have alerted DD. Snape would not knowingly let students be killed and the school shut down (thus ending his career).


Ann - Aug 13, 2004 11:43 am (#1976 of 2956)
Perhaps he thought he would be made headmaster, instead of DD? Draco seems to think so. Still, I suspect you are right, and Snape really is on DD's side.


Emiko - Aug 13, 2004 12:11 pm (#1977 of 2956)
Did Lucius PLAN to put the book in Ginny's book? It seemed to me more like an inspiration at the time- in which case Snape couldn't have known about it. Besides, Snape wasn't necessarily spying on Lucius/ other DEs because, LV hadn't come back and, if LV was in the process of doing so, his Dark Mark would have alerted him before any spying would have. When reading GoF, I was under the impression that Snape was picking up a job he had left 14 years ago.

"Severus,' said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, 'You know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready...if you are prepared...' 'I am,' said Snape."

Just the way that's worded makes it sound like Snape hadn't been doing the spy thing the entire time, but that he had been waiting, and "preparing" for that moment. And if he wasn't spying for DD, he probably wasn't spying for LV (if we're to assume he's a double agent) and I don't see why LV would hold anything that happened previously against him, Snape had to play along with DD in order to not get fired. If LV didn't kill Lucius, I don't see why he would kill Snape.

I really hope that makes sense, but I'd be glad to clarify if my thoughts got jumbled and confuzzled.


Solitaire - Aug 13, 2004 1:04 pm (#1978 of 2956)
Emiko, I do not think Snape was returning to a prior career (teaching--or was that what you meant?). I believe Dumbledore hired him for that position AFTER he left Voldemort. Remember that he would only have been the Potters' age at that time.

I suspect he joined the DEs immediately after he left Hogwarts and was a loyal follower until he discovered what Voldemort really had in mind. I think he then returned to Dumbledore at that time, both to renounce his sympathies with Voldemort and to tell him there was a traitor passing info on the Potters to Voldemort--at which time the Potters went into hiding and Snape began spying on the DEs, probably pretending to THEM that he was spying on Dumbledore and Voldemort's enemies.

Of course, he would not have had to be as active with the DEs during the 10 or so years when Voldemort was not active. He probably just maintained ties with Lucius, which was natural, considering he was on the board of directors of Hogwarts. This would keep him "in the know" Voldemort-wize, should anything happen.

It seems like most of the DEs who didn't wind up in Azkaban simply pled the Imperius curse, walked free, and picked up their lives where they'd left off. Some obviously returned to their ministry jobs--which positioned them perfectly for the time when/if Voldemort would return and press them back into service ... which, of course, happened when he was "reborn" in GoF.

I hope this makes some kind of sense.

Solitaire


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 13, 2004 1:36 pm (#1979 of 2956)
It makes perfect sense and is probably true. I believe Lucius and the other DE, certainly a few of his friends could have known about Snape's switch to DD. Remember, Lucius was once suspected of being a DE, but was cleared. I suspect he pleaded imperius or a lack of knowledge, etc. Basically, he talked his way out of it. The reason they are friends could be because they both in a way, changed sides, and Lucius probably believes that. Now that Voldemort has returned, Lucius has already shown his allegiance to LV, and possibly so has Snape.

Both tried to sever ties associating them with LV, and because of that, Snape and Lucius probably remained friendly, knowing they both followed the Dark Lord.

Snape could probably convince them that he acted after LV demise, as they would not have known wiser, and because of that, can probably get back into their good books.

Hope everyone can understand this.


Solitaire - Aug 13, 2004 1:46 pm (#1980 of 2956)
I agree, Rich.


Elanor - Aug 13, 2004 2:40 pm (#1981 of 2956)
JKR has a very subtle way to spread little clues, almost innocently in a way... I was just wondering if I haven't found a new one : in OotP, at the end of the "Professor Umbridge" chapter, McGonagall said to Harry (who was in her office after his fight with Umbridge) :

"Well, I'm glad you listen to Hermione Granger at any rate."

And, when you think about it, Hermione is ALWAYS right about the important things : who sent the Firebolt to Harry, the vision he had about Sirius and Voldemort... And what is Hermione keeping saying all the time (besides "you can not apparate or disapparate in Hogwarts") ?

She says (here, to Ron, OotP p.490):

"How many times have you suspected Snape, and when have you ever been right? Dumbledore trusts him, he works for the Order, that ought to be enough.

'He used to be a Death Eater,' said Ron stubbornly. 'And we've never seen proof that he really swapped sides.'

'Dumbledore trusts him,' Hermione repeated. 'And if we can't trust Dumbledore, we can't trust anyone."

And I think that is true : remember, as many other books (as LotR, arthurian legends...), HP is a kind of initiatory voyage. Now, in that sort of story, the hero has always a kind of protector who is to be trusted and is right at the end of the story (as Gandalf for Frodo for exemple). I think DD has this role in the story, so he is to be trusted concerning Snape. Snape may stumble, but, at the end, he will be up to DD's confidence. Does it make sense ?


Chemyst - Aug 13, 2004 3:23 pm (#1982 of 2956)
Solitaire, when Emiko said, "Snape was picking up a job he had left 14 years ago," I took it to mean spying, not teaching. But DD's supporters probably always subscribed to "constant vigilance." We have quotes of Hagrid suspecting Voldemort to return, and if he does, then...

Did Lucius PLAN to put the book in Ginny's book? -Emiko I'd guess he had a general idea of using the diary. Almost any young impressionable student could have fit his plan. The happenstance of seeing Ginny that day was probably a bonus because planting it on Arthur Muggle-Lover Weasley's daughter would cause extra trouble for his enemy. It would be interesting to learn exactly when Lucius got his seat on the board at Hogwarts because that could clear up at least part of the speculation about the nature of the Malfoy-Snape "friendship." Is is symbiotic? Is it like fraternity brothers from different classes? Whatever it is, they are both getting something out of it, but I have a hard time buying into the possibility that the two have been on the same side of the Voldemort issue in the past 16 years.

It is quite likely that as Voldemort was reaching his peak power, he realized that he needed to control hearts and minds of the up and coming future generations of witches and wizards. "Oh, the children are our Future!" platitudes start kicking in. Can't you almost hear his rallying speeches now? So Voldemort's Riddle-era memories show him that DD, now the headmaster, is a major obstacle to having all his dreams come true. Voldemort needs people on the inside at Hogwarts. His plan is to have Malfoy infiltrate the board of governors and get Snape hired on as teaching staff. But when Snape goes in for his hiring interview, he tells DD his "story," - that he wants out - and DD believes him. And it happens that the "story" he tells for Voldemort is essentially true. He really does want out.

It is an odd situation, but it allows Snape to tell the truth most of the time and get away with it!



els - Aug 13, 2004 4:20 pm (#1983 of 2956)
I agree with Chemyst. Snape came to Hogwarts 14 years ago, 2 months before Voldemort's downfall (If we assume Snape was hired before the start of first term). To Voldemort (and probably Lucius), Snape was spying on DD. And Snape would need to convincing story for DD to believe that he wanted to change sides.

Therefore, DD supporting Snape at Karkaroff's trial would not jeopardize Snape's position with the DEs and Voldemort because they (DEs) believe Snape is really a spy for Voldemort and still supports him.

With his behavior toward Quirrell, Snape didn't know Voldemort was with him. Quirrell was only lured to Dark Side in the months preceding Harry's first term. So Snape couldn't know that Voldemort was there. Snape also didn't go running to DD with his suspicions about Quirrell (which still bothers me). None of Snape's actions in PS/SS points to whether he is loyal to Voldemort or DD. I suspect Snape could slither his way out from Voldemort's doubts.


Solitaire - Aug 13, 2004 5:35 pm (#1984 of 2956)
I agree that Snape didn't know about Voldemort being in Quirrell's head. But Voldemort actually BEING in Quirrell's head WOULD HAVE KNOWN about anything Snape said to Quirrell that SEEMED anti-Voldemort, wouldn't he? I was simply suggesting that IF Snape had said anything anti-Voldemort, it could have made it difficult to convince Voldemort that he was still his faithful servant--which he would need to do if he wants to spy on DEs.

I think it is for this reason Snape remains on fairly cordial terms with Lucius. The fact that Draco is a Slytherin and one of Snape's students, combined with Lucius being one of the school governors, makes some sort of communication natural and not suspicious. That way, Snape is poised to SEEM to move back into the DEs should the need arise (as it did at the end of GoF).

Solitaire


Chemyst - Aug 13, 2004 6:49 pm (#1985 of 2956)
IF Snape had said anything anti-Voldemort, it could have made it difficult to convince Voldemort that he was still his faithful servant- - Solitaire Quite true, which is why "constant vigilance" is the order of the Order. Just because there was no one to actively spy on for ten years didn't mean that Voldemort wouldn't pop up again. Snape knew that. I don't think Snape or DD ever let their guard down completely, and especially when dealing with an unknown like Quirrel, who was suspicious at least as early on as Halloween. Would you trust a guy who let in a troll and then headed straight for Fluffy, even if you didn't know who was under his hat? And who later tries to kill a student? No, Snape wasn't saying secrets in front of this guy!


Ronan - Aug 14, 2004 6:40 am (#1986 of 2956)
Hmmm, I've always been really interested in Snape's history! Actually, sometimes I think I'm more intrigued by that than for Harry vs. Voldemort's final battle. It strikes as near-impossible for anyone to pretend to be spying for both sides. You have pointed a lot of good theories about this, my favourite being that one in which Snape tell LV he'll pretend to be DD's spy, and actually being so. But as someone already pointed, in the graveyard scene, LV claims Snape "left him forever" (it has to be him he's refering to! or maybe not?), so either his cover is blown or he had never such alibi.

Given LV's knbowledge on this, I can't understand how still he seems to favour Draco in OP, since Draco should already know Snape insn't his father's ally, but a traitor... Any ideas? =0


LooneyLuna - Aug 14, 2004 6:55 am (#1987 of 2956)
Along the lines of Snape pretending to spy on the order for LV, wouldn't Snape have to give LV something concrete, like softening Harry up during Occlumency lessons to prove his loyalty to LV? I don't think Snape thought Harry would not practice closing his mind, I'm sure Snape was counting on Harry practiciing Occlumens as he was "softening" Harry up for mind infiltration. Does that make sense?

Just thinking outloud. Smile


Ann - Aug 14, 2004 7:49 am (#1988 of 2956)
I think Lucius Malfoy truly thinks Snape is on the same side as he is, although whether that is Voldemort's side or Malfoy's side is not quite so clear to me. And I think that, although Voldemort had his doubts about Snape, Snape talked his way back into being in Voldemort's good graces later on. And I think he's really on DD's side now.

I don't think he is trying to hand Voldemort Harry by not really teaching him occlumancy. Dumbledore's one instruction to Harry, that he practice clearing his mind, is exactly the same instruction that Snape has been giving him. If the plan had been to use Harry to get Sirius, I wouldn't have been so sure, but I think that, while Snape may not like Harry, he wants him to succeed.


Solitaire - Aug 14, 2004 7:56 am (#1989 of 2956)
Ronan, I have a hunch Lucius doesn't tell Draco EVERYTHING he knows, suspects, or is planning. Draco is a bit of a loose cannon sometimes, shooting off his mouth, and I'm sure Lucius knows this. I would bet the info Draco receives is carefully "dropped" before him, so he will pick up the hints.

For the time being, it suits both Lucius and Snape to maintain what appear to be good terms. Lucius may really believe him to still be a DE. If Snape is playing the double agent role, it is critical that Lucius believe him to sincerely be a DE. Even if Lucius suspects Snape of being a traitor, he doesn't really have anything to lose by staying in Snape's good graces.

Looney, I'm not sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that Snape softened up Harry's mental and emotional defenses so that Voldemort COULD penetrate them MORE easily ... instead of teaching him to STOP that penetration?

Solitaire


TomProffitt - Aug 14, 2004 8:00 am (#1990 of 2956)
I think in the debate over which side Severus is on, people are missing something in the character of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.

I have formed the opinion that Severus is definitely working for Dumbledore. That Severus is spying against The Dark Lord. And Snape had to have quite a difficult time working his way back into his good graces.

What we must not forget is that He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named can know or suspect Snape is a spy and not kill him. What do muggle spys do when they find a mole in their midst?

First, they give the spy, and the spy alone, information that won't really hurt them, but must be acted on in some way. This leak confirms that the spy is a spy. Second, they use the spy as a conduit for misinformation. Third, when the spy's useful has ended he is removed.

I think Severus is on our side. The question is, has he passed the test? And how long will he be allowed to live if he hasn't?


Steve Newton - Aug 14, 2004 8:02 am (#1991 of 2956)
When Snape is with Lord V (assuming that he does meet him) he can't just blank his mind with Occlumency and have nothing get out. V would know that he was covering up. Maybe he has to have the sincere hatred for Harry show so that V will trust him. In other words he has to continue hating Harry to survive.


Solitaire - Aug 14, 2004 8:14 am (#1992 of 2956)
Excellent observations, Steve and Tom.


Ann - Aug 14, 2004 8:58 am (#1993 of 2956)
Tom, I wonder what the test was? (I think you are right--there must have been one.) But perhaps Snape is a sufficiently good occlumens to know when Voldemort is lying. We can hope so, anyway!

Steve, your suggestion was made some time back on this thread (with regard to James and Sirius), I think, but it bears repeating. And, come to think of it, without Sirius as a constant reminder and reviver of that hatred (Lupin isn't much help, probably), will Snape have more trouble showing Voldemort sufficient emotions to hide his true (we hope) allegiance?


LooneyLuna - Aug 14, 2004 9:00 am (#1994 of 2956)
Solitare, I think Snape has to walk a very fine line where LV is concerned. On the one hand, he was softening up Harry to prove to LV that Snape is still a DE, and on the other hand, Snape was trying to tell Harry he really needed to practice (in a subtle way). I think Snape was counting on Harry practicing his Occlumency, because I believe that Snape is firmly on DD's side. Since LV knows Snape is teaching Harry Occlumency, I could see LV using this as a test of Snape's loyalties. What better way? "My Lord, I have softened up Potter according to your plans, but the boy is determined to block you out despite my best efforts." Now, I think that what Snape didn't count on was that Harry would not practice.


TomProffitt - Aug 14, 2004 9:08 am (#1995 of 2956)
"Tom, I wonder what the test was?" --- Ann

I don't think we'll ever know. It is quite possible that Severus passed the test and Voldemort will decide that he still can't trust him. Snape could be killed, just in case.


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 14, 2004 9:33 am (#1996 of 2956)
I just realized something. All the times Snape has caught Harry lying, and Harry has denied it, Snape can almost read Harry's thoughts. We know he is very skilled at legilimens. He obviously can tell when someone is lying just like Voldemort and Dumbledore. No wonder he never believes any of Harry's poor excuses.


Elanor - Aug 14, 2004 9:48 am (#1997 of 2956)
I like your ideas very much Tom and Richard and I do agree with you. Some said that the fact that Snape doesn't smile or seems to never be relaxed was a proof he wasn't on DD's side (I'm paraphrasing) but I think that means the opposite : his life hangs by a thread and he has to stay on his guard each and every moment. That doesn't make one cheerful maybe, but trustful definitely.


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 14, 2004 9:55 am (#1998 of 2956)
I will just say once again my feelings on Snape: I think he is loyal to Dumbledore. The guy has had a tough life, and I can't believe some people actually want him to be evil. Snape adds color to the series - let's keep him good.


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 14, 2004 10:13 am (#1999 of 2956)
Snape is clearly a very complex character, however, in the HP series, the most obvious defining factors in each characters persona is in their opinions. By reading their dialogue and attitudes, we learn which characters are "good" and which are "bad". e.g., Lucius and Voldemort are clearly evil for their contempt for everyone else - use of the unforgivables, etc. Just like Dumbledore is clearly good, by his openness and forgiveness. However, Snape is the one character in the series who has a mysterious side. The one real character who the reader is unsure whether he is "good" or "bad", and was intended to be that way by JKR. Looking at the little information we have on Snape, we know he too has a lot of contempt for people - called Lily a "mudblood". He is also tries to be calm, but sometimes fails miserablly - when Harry invaded his pensieve. However, when we see Snape over reacting like this, I think it once again reminds Snape how alike Harry and James are - quite arrogant. However, I also believe that this over reaction gives us a clue. Snape is more human than he pretends to be. He to, gets emotional and that is generally not a quality Voldemort likes. Snape's outburst yet again reminds the reader that everyone is vulnerable and Snape's vulnerability - like Harry's - is possibly what drove him to Dumbledore. He to, is to emotional for Voldemort, even though he tries very hard to hide it, and this seems to be a quality (in a way) that the "good" side possess and protect. Emotion and love is the key.

Sorry if that was confusing.


Weeny Owl - Aug 14, 2004 10:14 am (#2000 of 2956)
But as someone already pointed, in the graveyard scene, LV claims Snape "left him forever" (it has to be him he's refering to! or maybe not?)

Why does it have to be Snape, though?

It seems that the main reason for believing Snape is the one who has left forever is Dumbledore's statement about him being a spy.

But consider...

1. Snape told Karkarov to flee. Snape said he was staying. Who actually left and hasn't been seen since? Not Snape.
2. Karkarov named names. He outed Rookwood. He renounced Voldemort. Dumbledore may have claimed Snape was a spy, but who has done more damage to Voldemort's side, or at least more obvious damage that can't be explained away?
3. Sirius's statements about what he heard in Azkaban indicate that Karkarov isn't at all popular with the Death Eaters since he named names. Sirius said he never heard any rumors that Snape was a Death Eater, but that could also mean that whatever evidence Dumbledore gave never leaked out or Snape would have been part of the Azkaban rumor mill.
4. After Voldemort's first near defeat when Harry was a baby, many people claimed to have been under the Imperius Curse. They returned to the Wizarding World with their reputations intact. Lucius Malfoy and the others Harry told Fudge Voldemort had named at the rebirthing are prime examples. If Lucius Malfoy can go back to Voldemort after being a respected member of the Wizarding World, then why can't Snape do the same? Dumbledore claimed that Snape was spying for the good guys. Snape can claim he fooled Dumbledore the same way Malfoy fooled Fudge.
5. Snape explains that unless someone practices Occlumency, Voldemort will always know if he/she is lying. Snape says, "It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly." Snape can mislead Voldemort because he also says, "The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader." Whatever Voldemort can read in Snape's mind has to be able to be interpreted correctly. Since Snape also knows Occlumency, he can probably see to it that Voldemort is misled.
6. Lucius Malfoy. Why would Malfoy speak highly of a known traitor to Voldemort? Voldemort said the one who had left would be killed. Malfoy was the leader at the DoM battle, or at least had enough power and influence to keep Bella somewhat controlled. If Voldemort had any doubts as to Snape's loyalties, he would probably tell his Death Eaters that the one who killed Snape would be richly rewarded. Snape is still alive, still being spoken of highly by Malfoy, still at Hogwarts, calling Draco by his first name. That doesn't sound as if Snape is on the Death Eaters' hit list. I can't imagine Malfoy not wanting to be the one to kill the traitor.
7. Draco probably chortles with glee every time Snape is abusive toward Harry and has probably kept Lucius informed as to how much fun it is in Potions to see Potty and the Weasel King being mistreated. Lucius told Draco that Harry is considered the savior of the Wizarding World, but Snape certainly doesn't treat Harry that way.
8. Snape is an enigma. Most of his actions can be explained away as being supportive of Dumbledore, but they can also be explained away as being supportive of Voldemort. Snape alerted the Order when the students didn't return from the Forbidden Forest. That's a point in favor of Snape being loyal to the Order... or is it? It could also be interpreted as Snape hoping something in the forest had killed them, or that he put off contacting the Order as long as he could because he truly is on Voldemort's side.
9. Anything that happened with Quirrell can be explained simply... Snape thought Quirrell wanted the stone for himself. Snape never knew it was actually Voldemort who wanted the stone, and if he had known, he would have helped.

Until JKR actually comes out and says who was who at the rebirthing scene, anything involving Snape can be interpreted in many ways, but since she never once came out and stated that Snape was the one who had left forever, there's no actual proof either way.
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Post  Mona on Mon May 23, 2011 7:37 am

septentrion - Aug 14, 2004 11:11 am (#2001 of 2956)
Weeny Owl, about your point 8 : or that he put off contacting the Order as long as he could because he truly is on Voldemort's side.

But if Snape had put off contacting the Order as lons as he could, I bet DD would have had suspicions. DD knows the forbidden forest and knows how long it may take to search a bunch of students (6 of them, difficult to go unnoticed). Even if Snape wanted to delayed his contact with the order, there was a limit in time he couldn't exceed to remain believable. But really, I'm convinced that DD would guess if Snape lied to him.


Siriusly - Aug 14, 2004 11:23 am (#2002 of 2956)
Somebody bung Weeny Owl a treat.


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 14, 2004 11:30 am (#2003 of 2956)
I do agree that Snape is not the one that has "left {HIM} forever, and will surely be killed" If he was, we surely would have known about it.

There is evidence that supports both sides, like many have mentioned. I think Snape would have to have been at the re-birthing so as not to arouse suspicion. I don't think he was seen by Harry because he would have been wearing a mask.

Also, the Dark Mark is almost like a portkey and remember...the Goblet of Fire Portkey worked on Hogwarts grounds. Therefore, if the Dark mark is like a portkey, Snape could have used it on the grounds.

Here's another thing to think about with Snape...Is he really mean to harry in class because of spite or as a cover? I think that at the beginning of the books he really hated harry, then, once the Order had to be called together again, he had to re-evaluate his priorities in terms of how he dealt with him...In potions, like Weeny Owl stated, he is mean to harry in front of the Slytherins so Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Nott won't even suspect that Snape is on the "good" side.

Keep in mind that during Occlumency lessons, Snape was one-on-one with Harry and still treated him rudely, Why is that? Harry said himself after the pensieve scene that he knew how snape felt to be an outcast, so they share that similar bond. But, even though Snape was rude to harry, he WAS teaching him occlumency to help him ward off You-Know-Who. The only reason Snape stopped teaching him was because Harry pried into Snape's personal life and learned things that were traumatizing to Snape. It happened just one to many times.

It is a clue to Snape's loyalty with his emmense skill in Occlumency and being a Legilimens. We know he is able to pry into people's minds and can also control what goes on in his mind to an extreme length. This shows that there is more than meets the eye concerning Professor Snape, which we have known all along.

Mortianna


Weeny Owl - Aug 14, 2004 11:35 am (#2004 of 2956)
But if Snape had put off contacting the Order as lons as he could, I bet DD would have had suspicions. DD knows the forbidden forest and knows how long it may take to search a bunch of students (6 of them, difficult to go unnoticed). Even if Snape wanted to delayed his contact with the order, there was a limit in time he couldn't exceed to remain believable. But really, I'm convinced that DD would guess if Snape lied to him.

First of all, let me say that I don't think Snape actually did put off contacting the Order, but it is still subject to interpretation. Dumbledore wasn't there and couldn't have known how far into the forest anyone had gone. No one knew what was happening at Hogwarts until Snape told them. What he said and when he said it is something we weren't told, exactly. I'm just saying that from Voldemort's point of view, Snape could make his actions seem supportive, and to an outsider they could be seen as him supporting either side.

So far anything Snape has done can be slanted to show Voldemort that Sanpe is spying for his side and not Dumbledore's side. Snape is an intelligent person, an accomplished wizard, and is going to be careful of what he says and does so that his actions can always be easily explained. That's why I don't believe he's the one who has left forever.

Thank you, Siriusly... owl treats are always welcome.

Edit: In potions, like Weeny Owl stated, he is mean to harry in front of the Slytherins so Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Nott won't even suspect that Snape is on the "good" side.

I do believe Snape really does detest Harry, and that his behavior with Harry serves two purposes. One, it is a definite stress reliever when he can taunt and torment the pint-sized celebrity; and two, anyone who has access to a Death Eater or Voldemort supporter (parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, older sibling) couldn't possibly claim that Snape is showing kindness or favortism toward the "hero who conqured the Dark Lord" (I do love that poem from CoS).


septentrion - Aug 14, 2004 11:42 am (#2005 of 2956)
Weeny, I just wanted to prevent other people to follow that line I know well, for haunting this thread for monthes, what you think about our dear potions master. BTW I forgot to tell you your post was very well written (typical of me to forget to say such things, should iron my hands or/and hit my head on the fridge). And I also think that DD is at least as clever as Snape is and would guess if Snape lied to him, but that's just a conviction.


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 14, 2004 11:46 am (#2006 of 2956)
Thanks for your reply Weeny Owl, and I do agree that Snape really does detest harry, but it goes deeper than we already know, which is obvious, but the line where Harry says he understood how Snape felt is a huge key to maybe how they are going to understand each other from now on.

Another big clue is that all the "bad" characters at Hogwarts like Filch, Malfoy, most of the slytherins all tried to help Umbridge in some way, and Snape PRETENDED like he was helping but we know that he was just making trouble for her. For example, when Umbridge takes over the Headmasters position, Fred and George set off fireworks all over the school, and it states that (this isn't the exact quote) "she was running around the school all afternoon answering the teachers summonses." It never says that Snape was trying to help her, I think this is a small clue into his loyalty.

Mortianna


septentrion - Aug 14, 2004 11:48 am (#2007 of 2956)
but it's a real clue Mortianna ! Had Snape helped Umbridge, it would have been noticed by HRH.


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 14, 2004 11:52 am (#2008 of 2956)
Exactly Septentrion, so are you saying that it shows a little bit to his loyalty to the good side, or that he did it on purpose so HRH don't notice he's really on the bad side?

Sorry that's kind of confusing


Weeny Owl - Aug 14, 2004 12:02 pm (#2009 of 2956)
Weeny, I just wanted to prevent other people to follow that line I know well, for haunting this thread for monthes, what you think about our dear potions master. BTW I forgot to tell you your post was very well written (typical of me to forget to say such things, should iron my hands or/and hit my head on the fridge). And I also think that DD is at least as clever as Snape is and would guess if Snape lied to him, but that's just a conviction.

No, no, no... you must not iron your hands or smack your head on the fridge! Have a nice chocolate frog and a butterbeer on me.

I would agree with you that Dumbledore is more likely to know what motivates Snape than Voldemort and would be more likely to know if Snape lied. Voldemort is much too self-important, and his ego has gotten him into trouble more than once. Dumbledore looks beyond the obvious and doesn't make rash decisions, and I can see him knowing Snape better than anyone. I also don't think Snape would lie to Dumbledore.

It never says that Snape was trying to help her, I think this is a small clue into his loyalty.

Aside from the fake Veritaserum, that's another excellent example of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. Plus, at Grimmauld Place, Snape told Harry not to mention the Occlumency lessons to Umbridge.


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 14, 2004 12:10 pm (#2010 of 2956)
That's an excellent point about Dumbledore's ability to know Snape better. That is a great idea to point out. Also Snape telling harry not to mention it to umbridge shows it too.

Okay, here are some more things to think about...

1. JK Rowling said that "giving away the form of Snape's boggart and patronus says too much. We'll definitely find out what Snape's worst fear is, and it'll be important" What could be meant by this? Does anyone have any ideas? This could have been discussed earlier, but i'm not sure

2. Who is Snape related to? we know that according to Sirius, almost all pure-bloods are related, he has similar facial qualities to Sirius...Which you can see in the images by Mary Grandpre in the US editions, they are almost backwards He also may have some distant relation to Tom Riddle, not enough to be the direct descendant of Slytherin but something else because in the 4th book there are the mentions of the pale, skinny black haired boy hanging around the riddle house, sound familiar?

Anyway, I would also like to keep discussing Snapes loyalty, there is an interesting thread at "Was Snape at Godric's Hollow the Night the Potter's Died?"

Mortianna


Solitaire - Aug 14, 2004 12:10 pm (#2011 of 2956)
Actually, Richard, your comments about Snape make a lot of sense. He is an incredibly complex and interesting character--certainly the one whose behavior provokes the most speculation. If he is indeed what Dumbledore believes him to be--a double agent spying on DEs by pretending to be one of them--then he is, in effect, living two different lives at the same time. Every word that comes out of his mouth, every thought that he thinks could be his death warrant, if he is not careful.

In this light, Elanor's comment--his life hangs by a thread and he has to stay on his guard each and every moment. That doesn't make one cheerful maybe certainly shows good reason why Snape would be cranky, even if he DIDN'T hate Harry. He KNOWS Voldemort's power, and he never knows when it is going to be turned on him, so "constant vigilance" is his byword in more ways than one. He can NEVER let down his guard. It does make sense, in that light, that Snape would get angry with Harry for not even trying to close his mind to Voldemort.

That said, I must admit that I, like Weeny Owl, believe that just about everything Snape has done from the beginning of the saga can be interpreted from two different perspectives. I'll even go so far as to suggest a third: Snape may be waiting to see how things ultimately fall before he commits his final loyalties. That would be truly Slytherin, wouldn't it?

To be honest, I originally thought that Snape was the DE "who has left me forever," Karkaroff the one who was "too cowardly to return ... he will pay." But if that was so, then why did we not learn anything of Karkaroff's fate in book 5? Is it even remotely possible that Fudge was the DE who was too cowardly to return and will pay ... and that Karkaroff is the one who has left forever and will be killed? If that is true, then Voldemort truly believes Snape is still in his camp. And COULD Snape have been the unnamed DE in the circle?

I agree that Snape's true character and sympathies have been deliberately kept ambiguous. I doubt we will know for certain where his true loyalties lie until either he dies or Voldemort dies.

Solitaire


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 14, 2004 12:22 pm (#2012 of 2956)
I agree Solitare, nice points, I'm not sure about the 3rd aspect of Snape's loyalty though, waiting to see what happens before commiting. I think that he has struggled before and now it seems that he is more sure than ever where he lies, we just don't know.


Weeny Owl - Aug 14, 2004 12:27 pm (#2013 of 2956)
Who is Snape related to? we know that according to Sirius, almost all pure-bloods are related, he has similar facial qualities to Sirius

I'm not sure if Viktor Krum is a pure-blood, but his description sounds like a young Snape. Krum wasn't too impressed with Karkaroff (I just realized I've been typing his name wrong - Karkaroff and not Karkarov) because of the comments he made at the end of GoF. Nowhere does it say Krum and Snape are related, but the similar descriptions have made me wonder.

To be honest, I originally thought that Snape was the DE "who has left me forever," Karkaroff the one who was "too cowardly to return ... he will pay." But if that was so, then why did we not learn anything of Karkaroff's fate in book 5?

Perhaps we'll near about Karkaroff's fate in the next book.

The subject of who is who at the rebirthing seems obvious at first glance, but when you think of the possibilities, anyone could be the coward or the one who has left forever. Fudge, maybe. Bagman, maybe. Someone we doen't even suspect, maybe.

I used to think the same way you did, Solitaire, but after reading others' opinions and rereading various passages, I changed my mind.

If Snape is truly the one who has left forever and will be killed, I don't see it happening until near the end of the last book. That's another reason I changed my mind. We need Snape's presence throughout the series. Karkaroff is expendable as a character, though. He's served his purpose.


septentrion - Aug 14, 2004 12:42 pm (#2014 of 2956)
thanks Weeny for the chocolate and the butterbeer ! they warm my heart !

If Karkaroff is the one who has left and if he has fled abroad, maybe it isn't LV's priority to find him. (funny pun : LV's is read Elvis isn't it ? In french, Tom Marvolo Riddle is Tom Elvis Jedusor -emphasis is mine-). LV may not feel the necessity to take revenge in the heat of the moment but wait for an opprotunity. That would explain why we haven't heard of him since his flight.


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 14, 2004 12:43 pm (#2015 of 2956)
Since there was no indication in the 5th book that Snape was suspected by the Dark Lord, we can safely assume he is not the one the Dark Lord thinks...however the DL may just know someone has left, but doesn't know who yet...if this is the case, then it can be assumed that Snape is the one who will be killed.

The DL could also know it is Snape but is pretending not to...but this explanation is a lot more less likely than the others.

I do think Snape will be killed at the end though, probably by the DL, I have his death scene thought out and if you want to hear it, email me.

In short, it's confusing but i do not think that Snape is the one who "left him forever"

edit: In terms of Karkaroff, he will probably show up or be mentioned later in the books

Mortianna


Fawkes Egg - Aug 14, 2004 1:02 pm (#2016 of 2956)
Well I'm sitting on the fence as to whether or not Snape is the DE who has left LV forever. Weeny Owl's points are excellent on that score.

But Fudge as a DE? Remotely possible, but I think VERY unlikely. He's basically like Percy, not a bad person but blinded by his office, as Dumbledore says in GoF. He seems not to favour folks like Arthur Weasley, a well-known "Muggle-lover", as much as he favours those who are into purity of blood. But I rather think Fudge is the kind of person who's passively prejudiced: doesn't care for halfbloods but isn't about to stick his neck out and join the Death Eaters over it. There are a lot of folks like that in the world, whose acceptance of prejudicial attitudes do far more to uphold unfair systems than anyone who actively harrasses any minority group. He's comfortable with what he unconsciously sees as the 'natural order' of things: why else does he stick his head firmly in the sand at the end of GoF?

Snape, on the other hand, is playing a different game. Clearly enthusiastically anti-halfblood enough to join the DEs, but again either realised the DEs and LV were going too far even for him, OR is playing a longer game, keeping both the Order and the DEs in the dark as to his real loyalties. I suspect that above all else Snape is looking out for Number One. Truly Slytherin indeed!


Solitaire - Aug 14, 2004 1:12 pm (#2017 of 2956)
Even if Snape IS the one who has left forever--and even IF Voldemort knows this--he may find that Snape has his uses where he is and will leave him alone for now.

I'd forgotten about Bagman as a possibility. But he didn't even have the Dark Mark, did he? I believe he was just accused of passing info to Voldemort's supporters--Rookwood, to be specific. If he didn't have the Dark Mark, he would not have known to be at the graveyard anyway.

Fudge ... COULD he have gotten to the graveyard somehow? Malfoy certainly managed, and I'm willing to bet he was at Hogwarts to watch the final task. So if HE managed it, anyone else could have.

Weeny Owl ... I, too, occasionally wonder if there IS someone else at Hogwarts (or in the ministry) who was and still is a DE--someone we know yet never have suspected. Since we know that even the DEs didn't know everyone else who was a DE, it is distinctly possible.

Solitaire


Ann - Aug 14, 2004 2:54 pm (#2018 of 2956)
"And here we have six missing Death Eaters....three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service." p. 651, First American edition (ellipses in original)

Okay, first of all, I don't think Snape or Karkaroff (or for that matter, Fudge, Bagman, or Dumbledore) can have made it to the graveyard from Hogwarts. Snape says "we were to Disapparate and Apparate, instantly, at his side." (p. 710) He doesn't say the Mark is a Portkey. I would suggest that Voldemort knew that the DEs at Hogwarts, the three live ones he's talking about here, will not be showing up. He surely isn't expecting Crouch (although he probably doesn't even have the Dark Mark in Moody's body).

Apart from that, Karkaroff seems most likely to be the coward. Voldemort knows he will not return and suffer the consequences of his actions. But I wanted to point out that, regarding the middle one, Voldemort says only "I believe" that he's left. If it is Snape, as I think it is, that means he is willing to hear a defense if he shows up within a reasonable period of time. And I think that is probably what happened. Snape showed up and talked his way back into Voldemort's good graces. But I think he did it either for Dumbledore (probably) or for himself and or his friend Lucius Malfoy (just possibly); I don't think there is any way he is on Voldemort's side again.


constant vigilance - Aug 14, 2004 3:02 pm (#2019 of 2956)
"But I rather think Fudge is the kind of person who's passively prejudiced: doesn't care for halfbloods but isn't about to stick his neck out and join the Death Eaters over it. There are a lot of folks like that in the world, whose acceptance of prejudicial attitudes do far more to uphold unfair systems than anyone who actively harasses any minority group. He's comfortable with what he unconsciously sees as the 'natural order' of things: why else does he stick his head firmly in the sand at the end of GoF?"

Fawkes Egg, that was very well articulated. I completely agree with you on this, both in the HP series and in the world at large.

In regards to Solitaire's question about Fudge being at the graveyard: This may or may not be significant, but when Harry got back to Hogwarts with Cedric's body, the first person he saw was Dumbledore, immediately followed by Fudge. While Malfoy could have easily gotten away unnoticed, and he didn't have to get back to Hogwarts immediately, Fudge's disappearance would have been harder to explain.

Somebody at some point on this thread mentioned that Snape could have gone to the graveyard using a time-turner. If indeed that is the case, he could have been the unnamed DE standing two spaces away from Malfoy, and the possible implications of that could be a whole lot of things.


Fawkes Egg - Aug 14, 2004 3:38 pm (#2020 of 2956)
Thanks, cv! I'm blushing at my monitor now!

I never thought of a time turner, but it would explain a lot, wouldn't it? We know that Dumbledore seems to play about with time a lot, so why not Snape? Certainly a useful thing to have if you're a double agent.


constant vigilance - Aug 14, 2004 3:50 pm (#2021 of 2956)
Indeed, and it would explain what Dumbledore wanted Snape to do at the end of GoF when he asked him if he was ready and prepared.


Solitaire - Aug 14, 2004 4:06 pm (#2022 of 2956)
Wow! The time turner ... Could it allow Snape to go back in time and BE in the circle?

As for the Dark Mark, Ann, you are correct. We are certainly not told that it is a portkey ... but what an interesting idea!

Regarding people being noticed/not noticed coming and going immediately following the last task, I'm betting there was so much confusion and commotion, it would be hard to say who was where when.

Solitaire


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm (#2023 of 2956)
That is an excellent thought about the time turner, because Dumbledore approached Hermione in the same way in the hospital wing about "being ready to do what was needed" like he asked Snape...hmmm...I like this theory.

Mortianna


septentrion - Aug 15, 2004 7:46 am (#2024 of 2956)
according to a person who attended JKR's reading this morning in Edimbourgh, Snape can see thestrals, and she added he saw nasty stuff with the DE. She also said that many adult wizards can probably see them too. It's not much information but it may help to understand Snape's switching sides.


Ronan - Aug 15, 2004 8:20 am (#2025 of 2956)
I have just come up with a wild idea that could explain both Snape being "the one who left him forever" and him being still alive in OP. See: at some point before the graveyard meeting, Lucius visited LV and Wormtail and informed Voldemort that he had discovered Snape is in fact in DD's side, is actually spying for him and only pretends to be on DE's side. How did the find out? Because he's a Legillimens too.

Then, at the graveyard meeting, after his brief lecture and rebith, Harry escapes. So LV tells his supporters the real name of that one who left forever, and who wasn't there because he needed to stay at Hogwarts during the Tournament's finale to keep his fake image of DD supporter. He informs those DEs they must pretend to still believe Snape to be one of them, so Lucius will still be able to extract info from him unsuspectingly.

Hmmm I have just realised this is the theory someone already gave about spies beeing kept alive as long as they can be useful, but a little bit extended.


Weeny Owl - Aug 15, 2004 8:51 am (#2026 of 2956)
One problem with that, Ronan, is that Voldemort stated that the one who had left him forever would be killed. Voldemort is not known for being rational when crossed. He Crucios people when they annoy him, and I just cannot imagine him keeping his cool long enough not to have the one who has left forever offed as soon as possible.

Another problem is that Lucius speaks highly of Snape to Umbridge, and Snape calls Draco by his first name which would indicate that there is a closer relationship between Snape and the Malfoys than just professor/student/student's parents. Perhaps Lucius could keep his cool and not Avada Kedavra Snape, but after his reaction when Dobby was freed, it seems unlikely.


Ann - Aug 15, 2004 9:12 am (#2027 of 2956)
As I've said before, I don't see the problem with Snape being the "one who I believe has left me forever." Of course Voldemort thinks that: Snape was vouched for by Dumbledore in front of the Wizangemot (in the GoF pensieve scene), which may have been general knowledge, and he thwarted Quirrell in PS/SS. So it is not surprising that Voldemort thinks he's left. But...he's not sure, and if Snape shows up and explains himself plausibly, Voldemort, like Dumbledore, may give him a second chance.

The time turner is an interesting possibility, and it is especially interesting that Dumbledore uses words to Snape at the end of GoF that are similar to what he says to Hermione before the time-turner episode in PoA, but it does seem a bit tortuous.


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 15, 2004 11:48 am (#2028 of 2956)
That's interesting about him seeing the thestrals though...did she say that exactly? because that could bring up another point...What if Snape was the one who killed Sirius' brother some 15 years ago, before Snape started helping DD...it would add more of a character for his and Sirius' relationship. Just a thought...

Also, Snape is excellent at fooling people, both with and without being a legilimens like Weeny Owl said, it's just the way he treats people that confuses everyone in the wizarding world along with all of us. We aren't 100% sure what Snape's role is or is going to be.

I still think Snape is going to end up showing what side he's truly on at the very end of the series and will die either way, personally, I think the Dark Lord will kill him on purpose or Snape will sacrifice himself for Harry. It will finally fully pay off the debt Snape has desperately been trying to pay back...

These are just a few of my own thoughts...let me know what you think

Mortianna


Solitaire - Aug 15, 2004 1:02 pm (#2029 of 2956)
Weeny, we have seen that Voldemort CAN wait a year, if necessary, to set up something he wants badly enough. Even if Voldemort believes or KNOWS that Snape is playing him false, he could be biding his time with Snape. Perhaps he needs something more from Snape where he is before he kills him. It must also be considered that Snape appears to stay pretty close to Hogwarts, as far as we have been allowed to see. In Book 6, the only other place we see him is at the Grim Old Place. Perhaps opportunity has not yet presented itself.

It is also possible that Voldemort may want Snape in Hogwarts, because he can ask Snape, as a DE (real or not), to help him gain access to the castle. I'm betting that Hogwarts is going to be the scene of at least one major and crucial battle--perhaps even the final battle--involving Dumbledore, Voldemort, the DEs, the DA, the teachers, and the students in general in the coming books. This may be where we learn once and for all whose side Snape is really on.

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Aug 15, 2004 1:20 pm (#2030 of 2956)
we have seen that Voldemort CAN wait a year, if necessary, to set up something he wants badly enough.

True, but plotting something such as getting his body back is different from not reacting to a traitor and being patient for who knows how long.

Yes, JKR said Snape can see Thestrals, but she said most adults probably could.

She finds it worrying when fans say they love Snape. That can be taken to mean that he really is a bad guy through and through or it could mean that even if he's a complete sadistic jerk and we shouldn't like him, he's still on the side of good.

I don't want to see Snape die, and especially not sacrificing himself for Harry. To me, that would be just way too cliched. If he has to die, I would like to see him in a duel with Lucius Malfoy and have them kill each other, or something similar with another Death Eater.

There's a thread about what JKR said at the book reading, but here's a link to the text version if anyone wants to look up what she said about Snape. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mortianna Wentworth-Snape [/b]- Aug 15, 2004 2:26 pm (#2031 of 2956)
Your right, it would be really cliche...I guess it's just because i watched Star Wars last night and I'm still kind of getting off of that. I really like the idea about Lucius Malfoy and Severus Snape fighting each other. Who knows? that point will be the only time we truly learn Snape's side.

I'm not worried about Rowling stating that it was troublesome that people liked Snape, I just think she thought it was amusing, because after all, in OOP she created a very sympathetic character for him. She also mentioned the part about someone liking Lucius Malfoy, but the attitude of it sounded like she was just laughing along.

Mortianna


T Brightwater - Aug 15, 2004 2:31 pm (#2032 of 2956)
Turn your back on this thread for two days, and it takes half an hour to catch up!

Tom Proffitt said, way back a long time ago, that he thought Snape was like Regulus Black, but with enough sense not to turn in his membership card. Someone not too long ago suggested that perhaps Snape killed Regulus. That strikes me as a possibility. Or, perhaps he was there when Regulus was killed, or heard about it, and seeing what Voldemort was capable of doing (or having done) to his own followers is what caused him to change sides. It would be even worse if Snape were the one who had recruited Regulus in the first place.


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 15, 2004 2:36 pm (#2033 of 2956)
Exactly...I was the one...(i think) who suggested Snape killed Regulus, it's about the right timing...if he's not the one that killed him then the two must have had some relationship, like you said, Brightwater, maybe Snape recruited him. We know that Snape must have felt something toward Regulus due to his connection with Sirius

Mortianna


Weeny Owl - Aug 15, 2004 2:37 pm (#2034 of 2956)
I just think she thought it was amusing, because after all, in OOP she created a very sympathetic character for him.

That is an excellent point, Mortianna! Who could possibly read the scene with poor Snape hanging upside down with his undies showing nad not feel sympathy for him? Not only that, but to have Harry see it would be incredibly humiliating. I think Harry should be glad Snape didn't do anything extreme when it happened. So if JKR is reading any of this, then it's her own darned fault we feel for Snape.


Romana - Aug 16, 2004 5:29 am (#2035 of 2956)
700 post to catch up on... ARRGH!

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason she introduced Umbridge on to the sceen, so that she could create a contrast to Snape. If Snape was the evil person that some people take him for, then it would make sense that he would behave exactly like Umbridge. The fact that Umbridge was worse than Snape indicates that JKR was probably not make the genaral audience like him, but at least see that he was working on Dumbledore's side(and that he is one of the cleverest people in Hogwarts, the cleverest at the time, as Dumbledore wasn't there Very Happy).

I like the fact the JKR likes writing Snape, as most of his sceens are a fun read! It is irratating the way that JKR stops short of saying anything of worth about Snape e.g "He will have seen things that? " I read that bit thinking "go on go on!" Anyone else?


Catherine - Aug 16, 2004 7:18 am (#2036 of 2956)
Gina wrote about Snape: And he'll still have a black cloud over his head.

Forgive me if this is a sacrilegious comparison, but I was reminded of Eeyore and his little black rain cloud that rains on him alone.

As Eeyore said, "You can give a donkey a happy ending...but the miserable beginning remains forever."


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 16, 2004 9:20 am (#2037 of 2956)
Thanks Weeny, what a nice compliment!

That's a great point to bring up, Romana, the contrast between true evil (umbridge) and not-really-sure evil (Snape) it really provides more evidence that he is on the "good side"

I also really like the comparison to eeyore, it's really funny...I think Snape has a lot of stuff in his past he's either trying to forget, or redeem himself from...and kudos to Snape for even trying, I mean, if I was in his place, JUST with what we've seen I'd be pretty unpleasant and bitter too, I just wonder what else we're going to learn about his past.

Mortianna


Accio Sirius - Aug 16, 2004 9:33 am (#2038 of 2956)
There are a lot of jobs that require a harsh touch, even if you are fighting for the greater good. Kind of the good cop/bad cop scenario. Most people are willing to work hard for the right cause, but don't want to get their hands dirty. And that's fine. But I think that despite his faults, it says something about Snape that he is willing to remain unliked and do the "dirty work" to fulfill the prime directive, as it were. Romana, I like your idea of contrasting Umbridge and Snape. She may think she's on the right side, but she is just plain wrong. Same as Barty Crouch Sr. who took the law into his own hands. Fabulous avatar, just BTW!


Paulus Maximus - Aug 16, 2004 2:50 pm (#2039 of 2956)
I have been worrying a bit about Snape, especially since it seems obvious that Voldemort believes him to be either a coward or a deserter. Snape seems to have re-infiltrated the DEs and reforged his connections with such DEs as Lucius Malfoy (who seems to think highly of him), but if Voldemort already suspects Snape of cowardice or desertion, I would be very surprised if Snape could fool Voldemort himself. That means that Snape has to stay away from Voldemort, and Lucius must not have told Voldemort about his dealings with Snape.

So, either Lucius has ulterior motives for fighting for Voldemort, or Snape is going to be in big trouble, possibly KIA, very soon...


Siriusly - Aug 16, 2004 2:51 pm (#2040 of 2956)
Catherine, That was BEAUTIFUL.


Solitaire - Aug 16, 2004 5:40 pm (#2041 of 2956)
When we consider some of the--um, "cracks," for want of another word--that Snape made to Sirius about being frustrated that he couldn't do anythng useful for the order, it is rather interesting that Snape was unable to help in the battle at the MoM, while Sirius gave his life. Of course, I realize that Snape would probably consider Sirius's death to be meaningless, as it did not actually accomplish anything and certainly didn't do Sirius himself any good ... but it just brought back the nasty remarks Snape had made to Sirius over the past year.

While Dumbledore & Co. understand it, I think Snape's absence from the battle may be a sticky wicket to explain to the DEs, once they stop to think about it. I tend to agree with Paulus on this one.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Aug 16, 2004 7:06 pm (#2042 of 2956)
Not all the DE's were at the Ministry for the raid. Presumably Snape's position at Hogwarts (as a double agent for Voldemort, or so the DEs think) is too valuable to risk him on a job like that.


Solitaire - Aug 16, 2004 8:41 pm (#2043 of 2956)
Yeah, I suppose he could use that argument on Voldemort, too.


Gemini Wolfie - Aug 16, 2004 9:55 pm (#2044 of 2956)
Snape's primary job was to contact members of the Order. Perhaps his job is to stay at Hogwarts not only because he had a job there but perhaps to stay as a correspondence or like many have said, to not risk his cover.

I'm beginning to think that Snape's presumed friendship with Malfoy is personal rather than due to Voldemort. They probably have mutual respect for each other's intelligence and perhaps ability to fool Voldemort as well. We know that Malfoy isn't exactly a feverent DE. Another possibility is that the house of Snape might have been good friends of the house of Malfoy for a long time.


Solitaire - Aug 16, 2004 10:21 pm (#2045 of 2956)
You don't think Malfoy is a fervent DE? I'll agree he is not as crazed as Bella, but I think she is slightly insane from Azkaban, on top of being just plain evil.

Don't get me wrong. I think Lucius is plenty evil in his own right, even if Voldemort were no longer around. He has shown that well enough. Until he was caught, I thought he might even be more dangerous, because of his robe of respectability that hid his true character. Oh, I don't know ... maybe he is just waiting to see if Voldemort wins. He will NEVER side with Harry, but he might strike out on his own. He is arrogant enough.

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Aug 16, 2004 10:30 pm (#2046 of 2956)
I think Malfoy exhibits the classic Slytherin traits in that he's out for himself regardless of who ends up on top. He was quite satisfied with his behind-the-scenes machinations during Voldemort's absence, but he's front and center when Voldemort reappears.

Snape, on the other hand, also exhibits classic Slytherin traits, but I think he's much more cunning than Malfoy. He is more subtle, much sneakier, and while he does have a temper, it's rare that he loses it. He lost it with Harry after the Pensieve scene, but for the most part he satisfies himself with detentions, sarcasm, and taking away points. Malfoy totally lost it when Dobby was freed, and I can see him as more in-your-face compared to Snape's lurking in the shadows.

I really do see Snape as the more powerful of the two but in different ways. I really can't imagine him not being prepared for something if he had been leading the Death Eaters at the Department of Mysteries. If he had been in charge, the Prophecy would be in Voldemort's hands.


septentrion - Aug 16, 2004 11:26 pm (#2047 of 2956)
I think that Snape didn't show up at the battle in the DoM not to blow up his cover. He's cold-headed enough not to run to Harry's help while he knows a lot of powerful and gifted wizards will do it. His usefulness is somewhere else than in battles, he knows it and don't want to spoil his usefulness for the Order if not absolutely necessary. Hope I make sense.


Weeny Owl - Aug 16, 2004 11:45 pm (#2048 of 2956)
I think that Snape didn't show up at the battle in the DoM not to blow up his cover. He's cold-headed enough not to run to Harry's help while he knows a lot of powerful and gifted wizards will do it. His usefulness is somewhere else than in battles, he knows it and don't want to spoil his usefulness for the Order if not absolutely necessary. Hope I make sense.

You make perfect sense.

I agree that he couldn't blow his cover, but if you compare Malfoy and Snape, I really do think he would have succeeded for a couple of reasons.

One, since he's been a spy, he is always on the alert, he expects the unexpected, and I believe he's prepared for most anything. As long as he can keep his cool and not let his emotions prevail (the Shrieking Shack, for instance, is where he let his emotions rule), he would be much better able to handle tasks such as collecting the Prophecy.

Also, in dealing with children, he knows much more what to expect from them, and while he may think they're dunderheads, he doesn't consider them completely inept.

Malfoy has the same basic problem that Voldemort has with the huge ego problems. The Death Eaters in that battle didn't expect any of the students to fight, much less do some major damage. That's where Snape's abilities shine... he would expect pretty much anything from Harry and Company, and I doubt if he would have been surprised the way the other Death Eaters were.


septentrion - Aug 16, 2004 11:52 pm (#2049 of 2956)
I agree with you Weeny Owl, but even with a huge ego, LV knew enough to send several (don't remember the number) DE but not enough to expect 6 fighting students instead of only one. I bet Snape would have come with the double of DE.


Solitaire - Aug 17, 2004 12:09 am (#2050 of 2956)
All excellent points, especially Weeny Owl's ... If [Snape] had been in charge, the Prophecy would be in Voldemort's hands. I'm afraid I must agree there ... although I don't know if it was so much a question of underestimating the kids or if the DEs were just "playing" with them. Sometimes I tend to think that, because it seems that all of those kids SHOULD be dead, given the opponents against whom they were battling ... doesn't it?

Solitaire
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Archangel - Aug 17, 2004 3:03 am (#2051 of 2956)
I agree Solitaire. The DEs were too careful in the MoM battle IMHO. They could have AK-ed one of the kids at the beginning without warning to really set the tone that they were all business. Also, given their powers, I would assume one of them would be quick enough to combine spells (Protego then Accio) so as to avoid the Prophecy from shattering if Harry did make good on his promise to shatter it.

I agree with most of the posts that said that Snape didn't go the MoM so as not to blow his cover. Also, I think he stayed so that an authority figure will remain in Hogwarts and ensure the safety of the students. After all, DD was on the run. Umbridge was just attacked by the centaurs. McGonagall was in St. Mungo's. Flitwick's there but I have this impression that Snape was a level higher than Flitwick when it comes to Hogwarts administration.


septentrion - Aug 17, 2004 3:28 am (#2052 of 2956)
Harry has proved to be difficult to be controlled. If the DE had attacked only one of the students, the prophecy could have been smashed, and they wanted it least to happen. And Voldemort didn't have many supporters yet at that time, his best interest was to have them alive.


Archangel - Aug 17, 2004 3:36 am (#2053 of 2956)
But aren't the DEs skilled enough to react quickly before the prophecy smashes like performing a combination spell to prevent it from smashing once Harry lets it go? They were too cautious and it cost them dearly, IMO.


septentrion - Aug 17, 2004 3:51 am (#2054 of 2956)
I reckon they had instructions to be cautious, it was more important to save the prophecy than to kill or get rid of a bunch of students. An idea...maybe the prophecy must be given by the one who is concerned and cannot be stolen.


Archangel - Aug 17, 2004 3:54 am (#2055 of 2956)
Ooooh Very nice point! Malfoy always says "give it to me Potter." "Hand it over". Smile


Sconie Girl - Aug 17, 2004 4:41 am (#2056 of 2956)
I apologize because I have not had a chance to read every post on this thread, not enough time before work and at lunch. But after reading Rowling's transcript I got to thinking about Dear old Snape. I posted this on the "Rowling Chat" Thread, but it was suggested I put it here instead.

In regards to Snape being able to see Thestrals, from the transcript and Jo's comments, I got the impression that SNAPE was the one who might have actually killed someone. She does comment that he was a Death eater. How can you "reform" from that...he is always making comments about poisoning his students. Should he really be trusted?


T Brightwater - Aug 17, 2004 4:59 am (#2057 of 2956)
It wouldn't be the first time that a crime made someone realize what he had become, but it could also be that he was there when another DE or Voldemort killed someone, and that brought it home to him.


Ann - Aug 17, 2004 6:24 am (#2058 of 2956)
It seems clear to me why Snape did not show up at the Department of Mysteries: he would have had to choose sides! And then we wouldn't have had to wonder about him--and neither would HRH and the DEs.

As to Snape's actually killing someone, I wonder if he wasn't assigned to kill Dumbledore, and just couldn't do it. He might actually have had DD completely at his mercy (or thought he did), in a situation where it looked like he could kill him and get away with it completely, but he broke down. That might give DD a fairly good reason for trusting him.


T Brightwater - Aug 17, 2004 7:33 am (#2059 of 2956)
Hmm, that's interesting, Ann. I can't imagine Voldemort delegating that particular job, though. But the idea that Snape was assigned to kill someone and didn't raises a completely new set of conjectures, especially if he reported the person's death.

Perhaps it was Aberforth? That gives him (Aberforth, I mean) a _really_ good cover...but presumably Moody would have mentioned it to Harry if he had been thought to be dead.

The missing Caradoc Dearborn? Is it possible that Regulus Black is still alive?

I think I'd better go and see Madame Pomfrey.


Weeny Owl - Aug 17, 2004 8:02 am (#2060 of 2956)
Is it possible that Regulus Black is still alive?

No. JKR said in her March chat that he was dead.

I love septentrion's idea that the Prophecy had to be given willingly, but even so, I think if Snape had been leading that expedition he would have succeeded. Instead of having all the Death Eaters waiting at the end of that row, he might have had some sneak up behind the six instead.

I know we don't know that much about specific Death Eaters, but most of them seem to be the type who would just stand around waiting for instructions. Malfoy and Bella were exceptions, but Snape is used to giving orders since he does so with his classes on a regular basis.

As for why Snape can see Thestrals, it doesn't have to be a matter of him either killing someone or seeing someone killed. It could very easily be both. There are thousands of possibilities for what Snape did as a Death Eater.

I doubt if he was instructed to kill Dumbledore; mainly because at the time of Voldemort's attack on the Potters, he would have been in his early twenties. After having defeated Grindelwald, Dumbledore has shown himself to be quite powerful. Even Voldemort isn't so stupid as to think someone just a few years out of Hogwarts would be capable of beating someone that powerful. Granted, Snape knows poisons, but Dumbledore hasn't survived to be 150 years old by being easily fooled into eating or drinking something bad for him.


T Brightwater - Aug 17, 2004 8:47 am (#2061 of 2956)
Thanks, Weeny Owl; have an Owl Treat!


Ponine - Aug 17, 2004 8:57 am (#2062 of 2956)
Could the main reason why LV's crew is that they are simply too sure of themselves? I mean, some of the death eaters have seen that Harry can hold his own, but Luna, Ron and Neville may not necessarily exactly come across as particularly intimidating or as much of a match for a bunch of crazies just out of Azkaban ready to kick tush. Snape probably does know more than most about their abilities, but it seems that he has not informed the DE's about Harry's specific wand, about Hermione's excellence, DA or the fact that Harry has his little connection with LV. If he really was a death eater, these things surely must have been worth mentioning to his fellow DEs?? Do you know what I mean? Me


Elizabeth Cooper - Aug 17, 2004 4:34 pm (#2063 of 2956)
Gee, get knocked off line for a couple days by a little hurricane and I have lots of reading to keep me busy while I wait for school to re-open. At first reading, I like your points, Ponine, because they just confirm my belief in Snape's support of Dumbledore's side of the conflict. And I still believe that. But while Snape would know about Hermione's abilities, would he have a reason to tell the DEs? Does Snape actually know about the DA from personal knowledge or did Dumbledore tell him? The special point about Harry's wand is something the DEs (most of them) would have seen for themselves at the cemetary when Harry's wand and LV's wand connected. And Harry's (mind) connection to LV is something LV knows and would tell his DEs if he wants them to know. These are just some quick thoughts and posted quickly because it's lightning and I have to get off line. Sorry if my thoughts are not stated to concisively.


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 17, 2004 6:07 pm (#2064 of 2956)
Okay here's a thought about Snape, the Dark Lord says during the third task in the 4th book, 'the steps i took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death' and JK Rowling told us to focus on "Why didn't (YOU KNOW WHO) die from the backfired curse?"

What if Snape had helped the Dark Lord by "putting a stopper in death" as he said oh so long ago. It would make him have to redeem himself, maybe he didn't know what he was doing it for, maybe he was tricked, etc. Maybe I'm trying to hard to defend Snape...

Anyway let me know what you think

Mortianna


Solitaire - Aug 17, 2004 6:16 pm (#2065 of 2956)
Mortianna, I think that is a very good possibility. It is mentioned in Harry's very first potions lesson and might well be something Snape has done before. In fact, I can see him coming to Dumbledore with this sad piece of info after discovering Voldemort was not what he had thought ... and after he had already helped him "put a stopper in death."

Perhaps Snape is even now trying to discover an antidote to that particular "stopper." Or perhaps he is wondering why Harry has never thought to ask about that "stopper." If I were Snape, I might wonder exactly that, given what has happened to Harry since he arrived at Hogwarts.

Solitaire


Archangel - Aug 17, 2004 8:32 pm (#2066 of 2956)
Snape's got to be in DD's side. DD would've known if Severus is uh... brewing something against him or the Order.

HOWEVER, let's suppose that Snape's really working for Voldemort and DD realizes this. What could prevent him from exposing Snape in the open? Could there be a prophecy made about DD and Snape in the vein of Judas' Betrayal in the Garden of Gethsemane? Just a thought! Cheers!


Solitaire - Aug 17, 2004 8:42 pm (#2067 of 2956)
Dumbledore and Voldemort are both too smart to tip their hands before they achieve what they need to achieve. If Voldemort suspects Snape of being a traitor, well ... he still has plenty of uses where he is, doesn't he?

If Dumbledore suspected Snape of being a traitor, well ... keep your friends close and your enemies closer, right? It would be to his advantage to have Snape at hand, so that he could keep an eye on what he was doing. But I am in my "Snape is loyal to DD" phase right now, so I'll think about that tomorrow!

I have a theory that Dumbledore knows pretty much everything that goes on at Hogwarts. I could say more, but this is not DD's thread.

Solitaire


Elanor - Aug 17, 2004 10:41 pm (#2068 of 2956)
As I understand OotP, Snape only knew that something weird was happening because Harry told him by using a code. After that he called Sirius to check if what Harry said was true and then, raised the alarm when he saw Harry and the others were not coming back to the castle.

BTW, not bad for someone who hates Harry and is supposed not to be fully trustful... DD and McGonagall gone, he had then the heavensent opportunity just to do nothing and pretend he didn't understood what Harry tried to tell him! And the work was done...

But what I wanted to say is that even if he spies Voldemort's side, obviously V and the DE don't tell him everything, even his old buddy Lucius, whereas he would have known their intentions before. That might also suggest that the DE don't really trust him and that Snape is in great trouble indeed...


Solitaire - Aug 17, 2004 10:57 pm (#2069 of 2956)
I agree, Elanor, with every point you have made! I, too, think Snape may be in trouble. You bring up an interesting point about the DEs not telling him about the little rendezvous in the Ministry. Hmmmm ...

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Aug 17, 2004 11:17 pm (#2070 of 2956)
That might also suggest that the DE don't really trust him and that Snape is in great trouble indeed...

That's certainly possible, but it could be that Voldemort keeps specific assignments confidential and related only to the group involved. Barty Crouch, Jr. said that only Voldemort knew who all of the Death Eaters were, so it would stand to reason that some were involved in things others knew nothing about.

That makes sense from the point of view of Death Eaters being caught. If one group is involved in a clandestine activity, he or she can't rat out other groups and their activities because Voldemort keeps everyone as separate as possible. That may be the reason for the masks they wear. They can't tell what they don't know. It's also why Harry couldn't name anyone he hadn't heard Voldemort name.


Elanor - Aug 17, 2004 11:20 pm (#2071 of 2956)
Thanks Solitaire ! BTW, I was thinking that after the MoM disaster, Voldemort may try to understand how DD and the Order may have been informed of what was going on there. I hope DD and Snape will find a very good story for that, whereas Voldemort will trace the guilty person "with absurd ease" as Snape would say...

EDIT : you may be right too Weeny Owl, still, I thought Snape would have been able to grab some piece of information from Lucius, with his legilimency skills, if they were that close indeed. And I don't think Malfoy is clever enough to think to that...


Gemini Wolfie - Aug 17, 2004 11:22 pm (#2072 of 2956)
In almost every book now, I have hope that Snape would for instance save Harry's life or maybe it'll happen the other way around now. But everytime I think Harry and Snape are going to get close and forget about their past differences events prove otherwise. What I'm really confused about is whether or not we're suppose to see good in Snape. We keep hearing that Dumbledore trusts him and we hear that from Hermione a lot as well. Yet JKR in wonders why some of us love Snape? Maybe she's just poking her own fun at it or is she really serious about it? Okay we know Snape is nasty but Snape seems a pretty serious guy when it comes to serious things, not unlike Lupin.


Weeny Owl - Aug 17, 2004 11:32 pm (#2073 of 2956)
The whole Legilimency thing is understood differently depending on how each person read those passages.

My understanding of Legilimency is that it is a learned talent that in many cases can allow the Legilimens know when someone is lying. Using the actual incantation can bring forth memories, but it's still up to the Legilimens to interpret those memories correctly. Unless the incantation is used, memories won't surface. If Snape used the actual incantation on Lucius Malfoy, there would be nothing subtle about it. It's a direct invasion of someone's mind, and Malfoy would know if the incantation had been used.

Without using the incantation, Snape might be able to question Malfoy and determine whether or not he's being told the truth, but he would have to ask the right questions. That's assuming, of course, that Malfoy doesn't know Occlumency. If he does, then he can protect his mind and be able to lie quite easily.


septentrion - Aug 17, 2004 11:43 pm (#2074 of 2956)
If Severus was in trouble with Voldemort, it'd be an interesting twist of the plot ! And that's believable, seeing how fast the aurors came in the MoM, LV will probably have a lot of wonders of how it was possible.

edit : I posted in the same time than Weeny Owl. I believe Snape would be smart enough to know the right questions to ask.


Gemini Wolfie - Aug 18, 2004 2:55 am (#2075 of 2956)
I don't think the Aurors arrived much earlier than expected. The elasped time between Harry dreaming of Sirius in MoM and the time the Aurors actually arrived is not at all a short time.


septentrion - Aug 18, 2004 3:22 am (#2076 of 2956)
you may be right Gemini...I don't know, I must think about it. BTW we should go back to topic : Snape, no ? before a kippendo falls on our heads (posts)


Solitaire - Aug 18, 2004 9:59 am (#2077 of 2956)
Good call, Weeny Owl: That may be the reason for the masks they wear. They can't tell what they don't know. It's also why Harry couldn't name anyone he hadn't heard Voldemort name.

About Legilimency ... I wonder if it is not only an incantation but also a "gift," or natural ability. Perhaps some need the incantation to perform it, but others--like Dumbledore or possibly Snape--may be sufficiently gifted to actually pierce the minds and memories of their subjects without needing an incantation. Isn't this, in a sense, what Harry was doing when he penetrated Voldemort's mind (before Voldemort discovered it)? Perhaps Snape only used the incantation with Harry in order to give Harry time to block it.

About Harry and Snape ... Harry does seem determined to cut Snape no slack. We see this clearly at the end of OotP. I find Harry's inability to move forward in this area very worrisome.

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Aug 18, 2004 10:57 am (#2078 of 2956)
I believe Snape would be smart enough to know the right questions to ask.

That's possible, but how often would he have the opportunities to interrogate Malfoy or anyone else? What questions could he ask without giving himself away? He has to be very careful of what he says and to whom he says it.

About Legilimency ... I wonder if it is not only an incantation but also a "gift," or natural ability.

That could very well be, although with Harry and Voldemort there's an unusual connection that doesn't exist between others. Snape even mentions it during the first Occlumency lesson.


Richard !!!Reid - Aug 18, 2004 1:12 pm (#2079 of 2956)
Going back to a few previous messages, someone suggested that Snape could have been assigned to kill Dumbledore.

Well - I'm not sure if I believe this myself, as I believe Snape is essentially a good character...now - but what if Snape still is assigned to kill Dumbledore and waiting for the right moment. Can you imagine when Voldemort has Harry cornered, then Snape and Dumbledore appear, but Snape then turns on Voldemort. What a compromising position that would leave Harry in.


Solitaire - Aug 18, 2004 2:55 pm (#2080 of 2956)
I somehow can't see Voldemort delegating THAT particular task to anyone but himself. I think he is far too arrogant. But I won't pretend the thought hasn't crossed my mind, considering I really waffle back and forth on Snape's loyalties ...

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Aug 18, 2004 4:41 pm (#2081 of 2956)
I don't think even Voldemort could kill Dumbledore, so if he did give Snape that assignment, it would probably be because Snape's cover had been blown and Voldemort wanted to dispose of him.


Where is Monkey? - Aug 18, 2004 5:40 pm (#2082 of 2956)
I really like Snape! It must be hard for him having all that guilt about his life as a Death Eater, having to fight to prove where his loyalties lie, and MWPP weren't exactly nice to him when they were all at school!

Am I the only one who wants to see Snape find love? I would love the next defence against the dark arts teacher be a female version of him. A soul mate! After all, he is very interested in the job himself, so why shouldn't the next one be just like him? Perhaps then he can let go of his Potter Grudge and have some fun...


Archangel - Aug 18, 2004 6:38 pm (#2083 of 2956)
Edited by Aug 18, 2004 7:39 pm
"Perhaps then he can let go of his Potter Grudge and have some fun..."

Wouldn't that take out what most people love or love to hate about Snape? Smile


Weeny Owl - Aug 18, 2004 7:23 pm (#2084 of 2956)
Perhaps then he can let go of his Potter Grudge and have some fun...

Ah, but who can say Snape doesn't have fun? We see Snape from Harry's perspective, but maybe in his off hours Snape discos, bowls, plays in a rock band, or does needlepoint.


Archangel - Aug 18, 2004 7:42 pm (#2085 of 2956)
Edited by Aug 18, 2004 8:43 pm
Needlepoint?! Haha Weeny Owl! Maybe that's one of the memories he deposits in the Pensieve before Occlumency lessons Razz


T Brightwater - Aug 19, 2004 5:34 am (#2086 of 2956)
Snape in a disco - that would be something to see! I think he'd go for something more challenging than needlepoint - bobbin lace, maybe. Or maybe he just plays the wizard equivalent of Minesweepers. :-)

I hope there's something in his life that he enjoys, even if it's just sneaking down to the kitchens for a chocolate eclair once in a while.


Steve Newton - Aug 19, 2004 5:49 am (#2087 of 2956)
I don't think that I would want to be around Snape if he had a needle.


Romana - Aug 19, 2004 6:46 am (#2088 of 2956)
Actually a friend of mine and I were discussing how Snape would relax. We had a mental picture of Snape hidding round corners and picking on random DE's, then blanking their memories so they couldn't remember where the strange bruises came from!

With regard to Snapes positon as a spy, we don't know that he has rejoined the Death Eaters. His job is "to keep an eye on what the Death Eaters are getting up to". This doesn't mean that he has gone back to Voldemort. Lucius and Snape seem to have a close association. Lucius always speaks highly of Snape. What if Snape is getting his information from Lucius? Which would explain why he is being nice to that dimwit son of Lucius. It would also explain Lucius' odd behaviour around Voldemort. Snape and Lucius could have a deal of some kind.


Weeny Owl - Aug 19, 2004 7:37 am (#2089 of 2956)
Lucius always speaks highly of Snape. What if Snape is getting his information from Lucius? Which would explain why he is being nice to that dimwit son of Lucius.

There is definitely something fishy going on between Snape and the Malfoys. From the beginning, it's always been Ferret Boy saying and doing whatever he wanted while Snape ignored it.

In CoS Snape whispers something to Draco during the Dueling Club and Draco casts the Serpensortia spell, and then after Dumbledore leaves and Draco is sucking up to Snape, he says something about Mudbloods which Snape ignores.

In PoA, Snape makes Ron and Harry prepare Draco's potion ingredients.

In GoF I'm sure there're things I'm not remembering, but the movement Snape makes in the hospital wing after Harry says Lucius was at the rebirthing is suspicious.

In OotP what struck me as odd is that when Draco bursts into the room during an Occlumency lesson to tell Snape Montague has been found, Snape calls him by his first name twice.

I've listed scenes involving Snape and the Malfoys that I remember, but I haven't reread the books in a while. I'm starting to reread OotP, but I can't remember between Snape and Draco except that one scene and the Umbridge one where she says Lucius always speaks highly of Snape.

It's always bothered me that two of the most dominant Slytherins we've seen are willing (or in Snape's case, used to be willing) to crawl on their knees and kiss Voldemort's robes. I've wondered if the two of them might not have plans that Voldemort and Dumbledore don't know about.

I do believe Snape honestly wants Voldemort defeated, but after that what he wants isn't quite as clear.


Ann - Aug 19, 2004 8:24 am (#2090 of 2956)
Back in post #2077, Solitaire said Harry does seem determined to cut Snape no slack. We see this clearly at the end of OotP. I find Harry's inability to move forward in this area very worrisome.

But at the end of OotP, isn't he projecting onto Snape his own feelings of guilt about Sirius's death? I think he'll come to terms with that before long. And then, as we've talked about before, Harry owes Snape an apology for the pensieve incident. Then, we'll see.


Solitaire - Aug 19, 2004 12:57 pm (#2091 of 2956)
Ann, I hope Harry will be able to come to terms with Snape. Not doing so is being to Snape as Snape was to Sirius and James ... and hopefully the things that are clouding Harry's future will give him a bit more perspective than Sirius and his dad might have had at his age. I do not expect him to ever like Snape--even if it is proven that Snape has been working all along to help Harry--but maybe he can come to appreciate and respect him.

Solitaire


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 19, 2004 2:24 pm (#2092 of 2956)
All Harry and Snape need to do is honestly put both thier egos behind them...I'm not asking them to like each other, but every time they work together, their egos get in ther way, EXCEPT when Harry told Snape in front of Umbridge what happened to Sirius, I think that scene definitely showed a character shift that was mentioned Earlier about Snape not just ignoring it like he very well could have.

Also, (sorry it's been a while i have to catch up) We didn't see what happened to Snape's status as a spy since the end of OotP...He may be in some serious trouble, no joke.

I'm really worried because Lucius gets his information from Draco and then we have Umbridge there who is consorting with Fudge and we don't know whom he has been consorting with...therefore,,,Lucius or another DE MUST know that neither McGonagall nor Dumbledore were actually at Hogwarts when Harry was tricked.

Who else could have alerted them to the situation, certainly not Sirius or Lupin because how would they know...It has to be someone at hogwarts, Leaving, dear Professor Snape...

A lot of people say that since the rebirthing scene in the 4th, LV has known about Snape's disloyalty, I disagree...

I think that NOW, very subtly, Snape has declared his loyalty to Dumbledore because there was no one else to help out at the end of the 5th book...this is a very subtle character change that needs to be paid attention to...

If I'm forgetting something that completely disproves this PLEASE let me know...

Mortianna


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 19, 2004 2:34 pm (#2093 of 2956)
I think the only way Harry and Professor Snape are going to even begin to come to terms will be with Dumbledore's intervention, as he did between Snape ans Sirius.

"It is time for you to lay aside your old differences and trust each other..."I will settle, in the short term," said Dumbledore, with a bite of impatience in his voice, "for a lack of open hostility. You will shake hands. You are on the same side now. Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not stand united, there is no hope for any us."


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 19, 2004 2:49 pm (#2094 of 2956)
That's another example of Snape's loyalty to DD and the order because it must have taken a lot to shake hands with someone who tortured him so, and we know (or think we do) that Snape does not forgive that easily...

Personally I wouldn't either if I had been through the same thing...I think him shaking hands with Sirius would have had a lot more meat if we had known how Sirius treated him as a child by then

Mortianna


constant vigilance - Aug 19, 2004 3:35 pm (#2095 of 2956)
Snape is written so brilliantly that it feels truly impossible to decide which side he's on. We have a good amount of evidence that he is working for the Order--key point being that Dumbledore consistently claims to trust him.

But even if we accept that he really is spying on the DE's, he doesn't seem to be doing a very good job. There is not much doubt in my mind that Lucius Malfoy and Snape are on very close terms, and it seems very plausible that Lucius is one of Snape's main sources of information. If that's the case, I fail to understand why Snape didn't seem to know anything about the DE's plan to get Harry to the DoM. Lucius in large part was the orchestrator of that plan. If that is where Snape is getting his information, he should have known that the DE's knew that Voldemort could plant visions in Harry's mind.

Actually, he should have known that anyways. The whole purpose of Harry learning Occlumency was that DD knew Voldemort could use the connection he has with Harry, against Harry. Snape was fully aware that Harry knew Voldemort wanted something in the DoM: Harry told him so at the first Occlumency lesson, at which point Snape ended the lesson.

After the Arthur Weasley incident, DD suspected that something like the DoM thing would happen, and he enlisted Snape to help prevent it. Snape did not come through on this assignment. This does not mean that he is/isn't loyal to Dumbledore, it just shows that Snape did not fulfill his mission to the best of his abilities.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 19, 2004 4:05 pm (#2096 of 2956)
"Snape did not come through on this assignment."

Very good catch! I had not looked at it from that perspective!

Take 20 points for your house!


Ann - Aug 19, 2004 6:05 pm (#2097 of 2956)
Mortianna: I think that NOW, very subtly, Snape has declared his loyalty to Dumbledore because there was no one else to help out at the end of the 5th book...this is a very subtle character change that needs to be paid attention to...

The only flaw I can find in that is that the DE's did not in fact know that Dumbledore was gone from the school or inaccessible to Harry and friends. Umbridge, anyway, thinks that Harry knows where he is; if he did he could perhaps have talked to him via Floo powder, perhaps before he talked to Kreacher. I think (hope) there is enough uncertainty among Voldemort and his DEs that Snape & Dumbledore could concoct a good story. On the other hand, we know that Snape sort of came through there, which is heartening and balances, perhaps, with his failure to do so in the occlumancy lessons.


Solitaire - Aug 19, 2004 7:01 pm (#2098 of 2956)
Ann, why do you think that the DEs don't know about Dumbledore being away from school? I think we can just as easily speculate the other way. For example, I am quite sure the DEs do know that Dumbledore is gone. Fudge was there and saw him go, and you KNOW he would have told Lucius. Even if he didn't, you can be sure that smarmy little Draco surely would have informed them when he told them he was on the Inquisitorial Squad. Frankly, I don't think the DEs would have set things up as they did if they'd thought Dumbledore was anywhere he could easily have been reached.

As for Snape not getting the info about the plan to lure Harry into the DoM, I don't think it can necessarily be written off to poor performance on Snape's part.

Remember, Voldemort did not take anyone but Wormtail and Barty Jr. into his confidence about his rebirthing, did he? From all we know about Voldemort, we know he does not send every DE he has on every mission. I would suggest that he picks and chooses.

Karkaroff, in the Pensieve scene in GoF, says of Voldemort, "He preferred that we--I mean to say, his supporters--and I regret now very deeply, that I ever counted myself among them--we never knew the names of every one of our fellows--He alone knew exactly who we all were--" Perhaps he did not think it a good idea to use someone under DD's nose for such an assignment. After all, Voldemort must know that DD is a legilimens and would probably be able to read this in Snape.

Snape undoubtedly had a fair idea of what might be attempted simply through what he'd seen in Harry's Occlumency lessons (Dumbledore hinted at this before it happened); but it is possible that Snape had not had contact with Lucius close enough to the DoM incident to know the specifics. And remember that he did decipher the cryptic clue Harry gave him and figured out what was happening. I don't think Snape's not being totally on top of this one means he dropped the ball, necessarily. (I know, I rarely defend Snape.)

Solitaire


Ann - Aug 19, 2004 7:40 pm (#2099 of 2956)
Solitaire, I don't mean that the DEs don't know about Dumbledore's expulsion/escape from the headmaster's office. I only mean that no one knew where he was at all--and he might have been hidden somewhere on the school grounds and/or some students might have known where or how to contact him. Even as I read it, I wondered why Harry didn't try sending DD a carefully worded owl as insurance--he could have used the same line that he did with Snape. At least, that could be Snape's story.

And as I see things between Malfoy and Snape, Malfoy has the upper hand in the relationship, and might feel it beneath his dignity to share information about what he is doing for Voldemort with his badly-dressed junior colleague. Although there is clearly more history between the two of them than we have been trusted with.

Also, does Snape get out much? As someone has pointed out, the teaching schedule is fairly full, even if all his classes are double potions. So he may not have seen Malfoy, and as you say, there may even have been a decision, given his position at Hogwarts, not to take a chance on Dumbledore finding out through him.


Solitaire - Aug 19, 2004 9:30 pm (#2100 of 2956)
Ah, okay, Ann ... I see what you mean. That makes sense.

About the owls ... remember that Sirius didn't want Harry sending owls when he was hiding out up in Hogsmeade because they might be noticed. That would be one reason not to send one to Dumbledore--Harry wouldn't want to alert anyone where he might be ... although I have no doubt he was probably hiding in plain sight.

I'm also betting that all incoming and outgoing owl mail was confiscated and read. In fact, didn't Umbridge say this at some point? Besides, I don't suppose Harry or anyone else on that DA list would be allowed within a mile of the owlery, do you?

I agree with you about Snape and Malfoy ... Malfoy is probably just as supercilious with other DEs as he is with Harry.

Solitaire
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Gemini Wolfie - Aug 19, 2004 9:32 pm (#2101 of 2956)
Whenever I think of Malfoy and Snape I keep thinking of Austin Power's Number Two and the first episode of the series. Reitering my past comments, I really don't think Malfoy is that feverent of a DE. In LV's absence, Malfoy had, shall we say, prospered; although it came at a great expense to clear his name and increase his social status. But now that LV's back, Malfoy would be a fool to deny his services as it may cost him his own life. Besides, it seems he's second in command under LV and the prospects of killing muggles and non-purebloods (or simply guys he dislikes) most likely appeals to him still.

I don't think Snape is still a DE but that doesn't mean he can't be friends with Malfoy. If they weren't friends through family, they definitely have something to offer to each other. Is it possible that Malfoy asks for Snape's advice from time to time? Snape does seem to be the type who could careless how evil Malfoy is as long as he's not dumb-witted. Snape, as we know, is not unintelligent and neither is he unwise. He may make snide remarks but his advice in general is quite good. And he does not seem to be the type who minds offering his opinion. Both on LV matters and political matters, it is conceivable that Malfoy would respect Snape's mind and analysis as the equal of his own. And as his son's head of house, it would not be unlike Malfoy to get in tight with Snape for his own son's sake. On the other side of things, Malfoy can put in good words for Snape among other things.

Honestly, it's not hard to see why Malfoy and Snape would be friends especially if their bloodlines are pretty much equal. I bet they share similar prejudices, just that Malfoy is seemingly more extreme. I just get the feeling that Snape would be more annoyed by someone he considers to be stupid or a fool rather than someone he considers to be evil. I do think that Snape, when all is said and done, is a good guy, but it doesn't mean he can't be dispicable the rest of the time. I think if Snape saw how Sirius died, he would be extremely mad; not so much at Bellatrix or LV, but at Sirius for being such a fool (taunting and underestimating his opponent) and letting himself be killed. I think Snape truely does care about the loss of human lives, especially the ones of innocent ones. It's like when Snape saw how Cedric had died. I really don't think he was mad at the fact that Cedric died but the way he died. You know what I mean?


Solitaire - Aug 19, 2004 9:55 pm (#2102 of 2956)
Gemini, I simply meant that Malfoy probably acts superciliously around even his DE cronies. It is, I believe, an integral part of his persona. Not telling Snape of his plans wouldn't necessarily mean he was suspicious of him in any way.

As for Snape and Malfoy as "friends" or at least cordial acquaintances, I agree with you. I think circumstances have placed both of them in situations which make it perfectly understandable for them to maintain what seems a cordial relationship--Snape is Draco's teacher and head of house. It stands to reason he would talk to Lucius and vice versa. It is a nice, symbiotic relationship, very "Slytherin-y."

I also agree with you that Snape would be mad that Sirius let his guard down with Bella and paid for it with his life. He would think it foolish.

Solitaire


LooneyLuna - Aug 20, 2004 12:26 pm (#2103 of 2956)
I just thought of this:

Snape's failure to teach Harry Occlumency could be his own undoing. If LV can read Harry's mind/emotions, LV might know already that Snape is a double agent or traitor to LV. Although, LV might not give Harry's musings much notice - didn't LV refer to Harry as having a "worthless, little mind"?


constant vigilance - Aug 20, 2004 1:19 pm (#2104 of 2956)
"Remember, Voldemort did not take anyone but Wormtail and Barty Jr. into his confidence about his rebirthing, did he? From all we know about Voldemort, we know he does not send every DE he has on every mission. I would suggest that he picks and chooses."

I agree that Voldemort "picks and chooses", that's one of his more brilliant tactics as a General of War/Secret Society. I also realize Lucius might not tell Snape the plan to lure Harry into the Department of Mysteries. However, my belief that Snape did not do his job comes from his own mouth. He is supposed to be a SPY, whether that is by going under-cover or hiding under an invisibility cloak, or whatever means he uses to get information. That is his task for the Order.

"Perhaps," said Snape, his dark, cold eyes narrowing slightly,"perhaps you actually enjoy having those visions and dreams, Potter. Maybe they make you feel --- important?"

"No, they don't," said Harry, (descriptions of body language)

"That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters."

"No -- that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him. (exchange of nasty looks)

"Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job."(pg 591 Ootp US hardback)

I could easily explain away to myself why Snape knew nothing of Lucius's plan, if he hadn't made such a point of letting Harry know that it was his job to spy for The Order. But there is enough evidence that Dumbledore suspected something like this would happen, that I just wish we knew more about what Snape actually has been doing. I just can't say he's been successful in his spy-work based on what happened at the DoM.


Hermy-own - Aug 20, 2004 2:28 pm (#2105 of 2956)
Luna, you make a very good point. I haven't read many of the posts on this thread so I'm not sure what people think of Snape's loyalty. I certainly hope he is on our side and I still have my fingers crossed that he will make up with Harry by the end of book 7.

But consider the following possibility: Snape is a double agent working for LV , and not DD.

It would explain why Snape agreed to teach Harry occlumency in the first place -- to prevent DD suspecting anything.

It would explain why he gave Harry such a hard time during lessons -- to prevent Harry from developing the ability to block LV's mental advances.

It would explain why he eventually stopped teaching Harry -- as above.

I know there are counter-arguements for these ideas (i.e. DD trusts Snape implicitly; Snape hates Harry so gave him a hard time during lessons; Snape stopped tutoring Harry because Harry saw his worst memory) but I just want to shed light on this possibility.


Lina - Aug 20, 2004 2:36 pm (#2106 of 2956)
Hi, everybody! Pleeeeeeease, forgive me if I bring up something that has been already cleared. I read the last hundred or so posts just to try not to repeat to much, and as this is my first post in this thread, I need to say all that I think.

I have started to like Snape by the end of the GoF and in the OotP he just became more cute to me. To me, he looks like a little boy, full of bitterness but basically good. Just a person who hadn't been able to deal with his frustrations from childhood or youthhood but not evil. O.K. Since he was a DE, a agree that he was even evil, some time in his past, but he isn't any more. He does hate Harry because he reminds him of James an the whole humiliation he has put him through, and he would tease him when he makes a mistake in preparing the potion, but he wouldn't do something to spoil his potion if it was done correctly. He would certainly give more points to Malfoy them to Harry if they did the equally good potion, but he wouldn't harm Harry in more obvious way. It was even cute to me how he wanted to punish Harry in the CoS for petrifying Mrs. Noriss by not playing qudditch. For example, he also disliked Lupin, he tried to make students understand that he was a werewolf, but he would never gave him a fake potion, and Lupin knew this as well.

But then JKR confused me by saying he was a bad guy. I was convinced he was a good guy, just a little frustrated, or inhibited, not a bad guy. But maybe she just thought that he wasn't mature enough to fall in love with him. I hope.

Weeny Owl: Snape is an intelligent person, an accomplished wizard

That strikes me the most with the real people: you just can't se why would someone be unsatisfied with himself, he seems so succesfull, and yet, he seems so frustrated.

I thing that Rowling is going to have to explain some things in the remaining books:

Like the scene at the graveyard. I think she has to tell us who he ment by the coward and by the one who has left him forever. Even if Snape was in that circle (thanx to the time-turner), we should find out who he though has left him forever. I would just say that that speach he did before he dueled Harry and it seems to me that he was shocked by the way that the duel was going on and that that was the reason he became so obsessed with the prophecy and the reason why he didn't kill anyone through the fifth book. So he didn't kill the one he thought has left him forever neither. Now that the prophecy is gone, I guess we will see who will he focus on, apart from Harry.

Then the foe glass. I don't think that she would have mentioned Snape looking at the foe glass where his own face was still visible... if that was just unimportant. As Snape really is an accomplished wizard I just don't believe that he was surprised or confused with the foe glass. It really sounds to me as he is his own enemy.

Then why is Dumbeldore so sure about Snape being on his side? At the trial he firmly confirms that there is no chance of him being a DE any more. When Harry asks him about it, he says - it is between Snape and me. When Harry asks him about some other things, he says - I can give you only a theory or so. He is sure only when he is 200% sure. So I believe that we will get the explanation of that reason. Maybe it's a sort of charm that Hermionne used for the DA, so DD would have the way to know if Snape has returned back to Voldemort? Maybe all members of the Order of the Phoenix are under such a charm?

And, at the end, those rumours about Snape wanting to be a DADA teacher: I think those are only a rumours because in the CoS Hagrid says that no one else has applied for the job. So I believe that he is really more comfortable with the Potions than with the DADA.

And about the fight at the Mom - I thing that neither Voldemort, nether DD wanted him there.


Hermy-own - Aug 20, 2004 2:54 pm (#2107 of 2956)
Very good post Lina. I hope you are right about Snape, I've taken a liking into his character. * ignores the whispers and cold stares *

"And, at the end, those rumours about Snape wanting to be a DADA teacher: I think those are only a rumours because in the CoS Hagrid says that no one else has applied for the job." - Lina

I think it was during one of Umbridge's inspections that she asks Snape whether he had been applying for the DADA job. I'm sure he said 'yes' in reply. (I'll post the exact quote as soon as possible)

EDIT:

Here's the quote -- it's from OotP, Chapter 17 (Educational Decree Number 24)

"And you have applied regularly for the DADA post since you first joined the school, I believe?"

"Yes," said Snape quietly, barely moving his lips. He looked very angry.


LooneyLuna - Aug 20, 2004 3:06 pm (#2108 of 2956)
I wonder, does LV know that James Potter saved Snape's life? Or if LV knows, he discounts that old deep, impenetrable magic?


Solitaire - Aug 20, 2004 6:04 pm (#2109 of 2956)
Probably the latter, Looney. I rather doubt life debts and honor of any sort mean much to Voldemort ... unless he personally can gain from them.


Gemini Wolfie - Aug 20, 2004 6:57 pm (#2110 of 2956)
Considering that Snape thinks or at least contends that James was simply saving his own skin, and seeing that Snape's anger and hatred towards James is genuine, I don't think LV would have been too bothered by it. But I think Solitaire is right, life debts seems too trivial to someone like LV.

About Snape purposely impeding Harry's progress... I just don't think Snape is a good teacher or at least the type of teacher that is conducive to Harry's learning. Snape has a wealth of knowledge and you can learn a lot from him provided that you're quick to get stuff on your own. Snape might be a good teacher for Hermione. Hermione is good at understanding things on her own and her thirst for knowledge will suit Snape just fine. Whereas someone like Lupin will slow the pace down and will attempt to explain things (in as many ways as needed) in order for you to understand. Until you fully understand, Lupin will not move on. Snape is a "just do it" type and works best with a student who comes back to every class having learned and understood essentially everything that was assigned and ready to move on. If Snape worked with Harry with the Patronus, instead of telling him to use a happier thought he would have just said you're not trying hard enough try again. Harry, I think, learns best when he is shown step by step (such as the DADA books that Sirius and Lupin got him) and understands the usefulness of what he's doing before he moves on to something new. We actually see that in Harry's own teaching. He doesn't like to move on until everyone understands what they're doing and becoming efficient at it rather than expecting them to figure things out and moving on to another jinx.


Weeny Owl - Aug 20, 2004 8:16 pm (#2111 of 2956)
I would agree with you on that, Gemini, except that Snape's personality and Hermione's clash.

She has the knowledge he can appreciate, she studies, she puts forth her best effort and succeeds, but she makes the mistake of waving her hand in the air and interrupting him when he doesn't call on her. He knows she knows the answer or she wouldn't raise her hand, but she needs to use a more subtle approach with Snape.

Snape's major failing as a teacher is having little patience. If, when he realized Neville's fright, he had taken the time to talk to Neville in a relaxed atmosphere the way Barty Crouch, Jr. did, I think Neville would have improved by leaps and bounds. Instead, he lets his irritation out and only succeeds in making things worse. Neville is no slouch, and if he had a calmer environment for potions, I think he would be excellent.

McGonagall is the right mix of compassion and strictness, and it would behoove Snape to take an approach similar to hers.


Solitaire - Aug 20, 2004 8:32 pm (#2112 of 2956)
Gemini: I just don't think Snape is a good teacher or at least the type of teacher that is conducive to Harry's learning.

That is a critical point, even in the Muggle world where I live and teach. Different kids learn in different ways. Lupin is able to adapt his teaching methods to meet the needs of his students. Snape is not. Snape has one way of teaching--Here's the assignment. Read the directions and do it--and he expects his students to adapt to him rather than the other way around.

We've gone over this ground before, but perhaps it bears repeating. For all of his brilliance, knowledge, and experience Snape is a bad teacher, at least for Harry.

I am sure Snape must have been told by Dumbledore (who no doubt to heard it from Hagrid and told the rest) that Harry was raised totally as a Muggle and kept clueless about his heritage until a few days before he came to Hogwarts--but he certainly gives no evidence of it. The simple fact of Harry's complete "foreignness" to the WW means he is going to ask more questions, have more "whys." Couple that with his entry into adolescence--a time when kids naturally begin to question rules and want to know "why" about everything--and the scene is just too much for Snape.

A good teacher would not have felt the need to openly expose Harry's ignorance during the first potions lesson, as Snape did. In fact, he positively reveled in making Harry feel as worthless as possible. Note that in their lesson about boggarts, Lupin did not have Harry or Hermione face it the first time in front of the class. Harry's reason was obvious, and he used Hermione's having already received points as a cover for Harry. He was sensitive to what might happen, and he wanted to spare Harry that until they'd at least had time to talk about it.

I agree with Gemini about how Snape would probably have handled the Patronus. If he'd been elected to show Harry how to cast a Patronus charm, I think we would have ended with PoA. Sirius and Lupin would have been in Azkaban and the kids would have been floating around Hogwarts, soul-sucked.

Solitaire

Edited: Weeny Owl is right. McGonagall is no slouch in the intelligence and discipline departments; but she tempers her discipline and firmness with fairness, mutual respect, and a bit of well-placed humor. The result? The kids respect her, like her, and LEARN from her.


Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 20, 2004 8:34 pm (#2113 of 2956)
I am so terribly excited right now... I have FINALLY managed to finish reading this thread! This was no mean feat, especially since when I first started it was only 1,000 some.

My head is currently still spinning, so I won't comment on everything I've been dying to mention. I would just like to say that I believe Snape was intrigued by his reflection in the foe glass because a "fellow Death Eater" considered him to be an enemy (I believe this was mentioned by someone earlier... kudos to you, and have a butterbeer on me).

I think it is impossible or at the very least unlikely that Snape attended the rebirthing, as well as Fudge and/or Bagman are Death Eaters. It is too late for me to fully explain my reasons; let's just say it's partially a gut feeling. I believe Voldemort thought of Snape as the coward because he didn't have a reason to not come back other than fear, at least from Voldemort's point of view. I hope this makes sense to someone other than me. It would be obvious that Karkaroff wouldn't return- he's not that stupid (and it would take a lot of stupidity to go back to Voldemort after you had betrayed him, not courage).

My last comment will be about why Jo is distressed by so many people's love for Snape. I believe she has stated that she liked the bad boy type for too long and was hurt by it. Snape is an intriguing character, but wouldn't be a good companion. The sooner girls, and I suppose boys could also have this problem, realize the pain is not worth what you get out of that kind of relationship, the better. She is trying to put us on our guard against a foolish endeavor such as the kind she ...uh... endeavored in.

Edit: While I was typing this, two new posts were added! You cannot turn your back on the Snape thread for longer than a minute without a new response.



Weeny Owl - Aug 20, 2004 8:44 pm (#2114 of 2956)
It would be obvious that Karkaroff wouldn't return- he's not that stupid (and it would take a lot of stupidity to go back to Voldemort after you had betrayed him, not courage).

I really like this, Larissa! What an excellent way of phrasing it.

I agree with you about JKR's take on the bad-boy syndrome. Bad boys can be so attractive, but giving one your heart isn't always a good idea.


Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 20, 2004 8:48 pm (#2115 of 2956)
Thank you very much, Weeny Owl. I'm just glad that I wasn't speaking gobbledegook.


Solitaire - Aug 20, 2004 8:57 pm (#2116 of 2956)
I'm not sure if it is the character of Snape or Alan Rickman that people like. It's the same thing with Draco. Less attractive or less charismatic actors in those movie roles might not have led the characters to become so popular. I think a lot of young people, in particular, tend to associate the character with the actor. If the actor is really likable and personable, the idea is that the character can't be THAT bad. This is one reason I was horrified to read that Ralph Fiennes would be playing Voldemort. In my mind, Jeremy Irons WAS Voldemort. I could just hear that evil, oozing, unctuous Scar voice he used in The Lion King!

I will admit I find the ambiguous, intricate character of Snape absolutely riveting from a literary perspective--and I think most people who "like" him really feel like this--but I also find him despicable in so many ways, because of his treatment of the kids. I certainly do NOT find him cute.

Solitaire


Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 20, 2004 9:16 pm (#2117 of 2956)
Scar would be a perfect Voldemort! Another suggestion for Voldemort is the actor who did the voice of Jafar in Aladin (there's just something about the Disney movies that screams evil wizard...).

Edit: This was highly off-topic; I do apologize.


Solitaire - Aug 20, 2004 9:25 pm (#2118 of 2956)
Larissa, for some reason, when I "see" Voldemort rise out of that cauldron, I "see" Jafar, too! I had a different Snape in mind ... Come to think of it, Jeremy would have been good in THAT part, too. heeee He makes a great villain. Poor Snape ... I don't like him much, but I think he has a hard fall coming ... harder than he probably deserves.


Archangel - Aug 20, 2004 10:30 pm (#2119 of 2956)
"In my mind, Jeremy Irons WAS Voldemort."

You're not alone in that Solitaire. I too was a bit disappointed when he wasn't cast as LV. I posted this on the Discussions on movie cast thread. Sad

Anyway back to ol Snape, Harry mentioned in the last chapters of OoP that he'll never forgive Snape. I think that their relationship of student-teacher might reach the limit in the next book and I honestly believe that Harry for one might not be able to keep his temper in check and lash out at Snape the way he often did in Umbridge's class. I wonder how Snape will react though... and DD and McGonagall too.


Weeny Owl - Aug 20, 2004 11:09 pm (#2120 of 2956)
I've always pictured Snape as looking just like Wormtongue in "The Two Towers," but with dark eyes. It isn't Snape's appearance or Alan Rickman's performance that make me feel he's actually on the side of the good guys. It's the intricate details that make him appear to be a totally amoral person, but when those same details are looked at a bit more closely, another picture forms.

I'm hoping that if Snape and Harry get into it, it's during the summer with Dumbledore as a referee. If not that, then perhaps Lupin or someone else can help Harry to see Snape's actions in another light.

I would also like it if someone would help Snape see Harry in another light.

Those two and their hatred aren't doing anyone any good.


Archangel - Aug 20, 2004 11:21 pm (#2121 of 2956)
I agree with your last line Weeny Owl. Their hatred could possibly even fracture the Order by creating unnecessary chaos within. It can even be used by Voldemort to his advantage. Yikes! Having said that, I don't think they'll ever kiss and make up. They're very hurt and very stubborn. Not a good combination...


Solitaire - Aug 21, 2004 12:07 am (#2122 of 2956)
Yep, both of them are hard-headed. I think it will take something extraordinary, such as a major revelation by Snape--or by Dumbledore about Snape--to change Harry's mind. It isn't that Harry can't change his mind; he does not want to change it at the moment. I think he wants to nurse his resentment as a tribute to Sirius.

I'm not sure Snape CAN change his mind. I believe it would take not a major revelation but Harry's stellar performance in some sort of event to CREATE respect for Harry--to enable Snape to see him as himself rather than as a reincarnation of James--if it could even happen at all.

Solitaire


Hermy-own - Aug 21, 2004 5:46 am (#2123 of 2956)
I wonder why JKR is hell bent on us disliking Snape...seems fishy to me.

"It's the intricate details that make him appear to be a totally amoral person, but when those same details are looked at a bit more closely, another picture forms." - Weeny Owl

Credit that to Rowling's brilliance. I think she'll keep us guessing where his loyalties lie right until book 7.


LooneyLuna - Aug 21, 2004 7:00 am (#2124 of 2956)
Now, I have no evidence to back this up, but I do think Snape does respect Harry, although begrudgingly. It's just a feeling I have. At the end of OotP, when Harry is about to curse Malfoy, he gives Snape an honest answer about what he's about to do, which I don't believe Harry has done before. I think Harry's hatred will cause him to stand up to Snape more (although it might cost him detentions or points).

You know what would really make Snape mad? If Harry saves HIS life. Wouldn't that be a hoot!


Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 21, 2004 7:00 am (#2125 of 2956)
Solitaire: I think he wants to nurse his resentment as a tribute to Sirius.

That is just brilliant! I can see Harry feeling guilty about not hating Snape (if it ever actually happens) because of Sirius.


Ann - Aug 21, 2004 7:33 am (#2126 of 2956)
That scene where Snape prevents Harry from cursing Malfoy at the end of OotP is indeed interesting, partly because Harry's straightforward admission of what he intends to do seems almost Snape-ish to me. He speaks "fiercely," but he is sufficiently controlled to add the "sir." So maybe he has learned something in those Occlumancy sessions, after all.

But what really interested me about that scene was Snape's reaction to the reappearance of McGonagall:

"Professor McGonagall!" said Snape, striding forward. "Out of St. Mungo's, I see!"

When have we ever seen Snape talk in exclamations before? And "striding forward," almost instinctively it seems, sounds like he has a real affection for her. We know they spar (and they begin to do so almost immediately in this scene), but I think there is a real bond between them (not romantic, but affectionate, as fellow teachers and members of the Order). And that speaks well for Snape!

<Edit: Oh, and I also loved Solitaire's formulation of Harry's dislike for Snape as a tribute to Sirius!>


Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 21, 2004 10:05 am (#2127 of 2956)
I'm sure that Snape and McGonagall have a special relationship, but not a romantic one, just the fact that they are working together in the order...Snape can't really show dislike for Malfoy because then once again, it would show his loyalty, he has to seem like he is still on thier side

Thanks for your support about Snape's loyalty now given away because of the end of the 5th book, i really think that now he gave away his position because there was no one else at Hogwarts to warn the order about the situation.

There has been much speculation about his loyalty but just to say, i'm on the side that says Snape is on the good side.

Mortianna


T Brightwater - Aug 21, 2004 12:48 pm (#2128 of 2956)
Brilliant, Solitaire! (Harry resenting Snape out of loyalty to Sirius) Have a butterbeer!

If Snape talks to Harry about Sirius the way he does about James, I can see Harry completely exploding. His rage in Dumbledore's office would be nothing to that.

You don't have to be attracted to or even be special friends with a co-worker to be glad she's out of the hospital, but it does seem that Snape was pleased to see McGonagall. I think that's the closest we've seen him to being honestly pleased about something that isn't malicious.

LooneyLuna: "You know what would really make Snape mad? If Harry saves HIS life. Wouldn't that be a hoot!"

Oh, that would be embarrassing. Snape would really never forgive him for that. I can see Harry doing it, purely on instinct, and then having a moment's regret at having done it.


Solitaire - Aug 21, 2004 1:09 pm (#2129 of 2956)
Wow! I am so excited to be called brilliant! I may take a screen shot and post it on the board at school, so my students (who think I am a dorky old English teacher) can see it! heeeeeeee

It sounds funny, but some people actually believe this way. In Pride & Prejudice, the pompous, stupid Mr. Collins says the following to Mr. Bennet regarding the estrangement between his own father and Mr. Bennet: I have frequently wished to heal the breach; but for some time I was kept back by my own doubts, fearing lest it might seem disrespectful to his memory for me to be on good terms with anyone with whom it had always pleased him to be at variance.

The whole idea just seems to fit perfectly. I can see Harry feeling it would be disrespectful to Sirius to acknowledge any good in Snape, since Sirius loved to hate him.

Looney: You know what would really make Snape mad? If Harry saves HIS life. Wouldn't that be a hoot! Luna, I completely agree! It would be the last straw! Poor Snape ... indebted to father AND son! LOL

Solitaire


Lina - Aug 21, 2004 1:37 pm (#2130 of 2956)
Solitaire: I can see Harry feeling it would be disrespectful to Sirius to acknowledge any good in Snape, since Sirius loved to hate him.

This is what bothers me. Why does Sirius hate Snape so much and doesn't believe him at all? For all of us it is enough that DD believes him. He really must have been a nasty boy as a student. Something even worse than Draco. We have seen only one side of the story from the time they were students, and there is a reason why Sirius doesn't find James's behavior so bad.

And I do agree that he is a bed teacher. Even though we don't see if he is showing more patience with slytherins or if he is a bed teacher only with Griffindors... I do think that he is an excellent wizard,with very big knowledge and skills but without a skill of teaching. Is DD keeping him at Hogwarts just to have him under control? And why did he assign him the task of teaching Harry Oclumnency knowing (because he had to know that) that he is a bad teacher? Does it mean that nobody else at Hogwarts beside them two was able to do that?

And I must say that I started to like Snape just because of the books, not because of the actors. For the actor, it is much easier to show all his abilities by playing the bad guy, and therefore I really admire Tom Felton, but it is not a case with Snape. He, by reading the books, just seems to me like a little frightened boy. And I really like children even if they play rough, and you know how anybody is able to become cruel when frightened...

LooneyLuna [/b]- Aug 21, 2004 4:02 pm (#2131 of 2956)
You know, I think Snape's Worst Memory would change if Harry saved his life. Smile

Do you think Snape fears Harry? I just wonder if Snape's sarcasm and cruelty are an effort to hide his own fear or short-comings.


Hermy-own - Aug 21, 2004 4:54 pm (#2132 of 2956)
Lol! Which brings me to ask:
Could Snape forget that memory if he wanted to? He could store it in the pensieve for eternity, or he could destroy the pensieve whilst it contained the thought. Either way he would not have to remember that horrific ordeal.

In response to your second question Luna, here's a mini-essay that even Solitaire would be proud of!

Snape and James didn't really get on (Is that the understatement of the year, or what?) As such, Snape has had reason *in his opinion* to dislike Harry, but being a Hogwarts professor and a member of the Order he knows he cannot harm Harry. This is one reason for all the sarcasm and cruelty we see; they are his only means of venting his hatred.

As for Snape fearing Harry? Well said! I couldn't agree with you more, Luna. He knows that Harry has successfully fought the dark lord, something he himself is not powerful enough to do, and so grudgingly respects and fears Harry for this. The sarcasm and cruelty give him a sense of power over Harry - it's the only way he wins. After all, he's not so sure he'd win if it came down to magical ability, in a duel for instance.

Just my two knuts...

EDIT:
Having just re-read the essay I can say it is nowhere near as good as any of Solitaire's. I wonder if Rita Skeeter would lend me that quill of hers...


Solitaire - Aug 21, 2004 6:14 pm (#2133 of 2956)
I think everyone raises valid points, Hermy. The truth is that many people develop intense dislike or hatred of someone as a young person, but it often fades or disappears when they get to know the person as an adult.

James, Sirius and Snape never did get to know each other as adults in "normal" circumstances, so they were never able to come to any sense of peace and respect. They came of age during the height of a war in which Snape was fighting on the side of the mortal enemy, Voldemort. We know that Snape changed sides before the Potters were killed, and the Potters and Sirius MAY have known it ... but suppose they didn't. Or maybe they heard it but didn't believe it.

Just pondering these things makes me wonder something else about Snape (and, yes, I realize this would probably fit on the Snape/Godric's Hollow thread ... but I think it fits here, too). We see Snape continually taunt Harry about James's arrogance. Maybe he has another reason for this. Just suppose Snape had tried to warn James and Lily of Peter's betrayal and tell them Voldemort was on his way there to kill them.

I would be willing to bet James might not have believed him and probably refused to accept Snape's protection. Such a scenario would certainly be remembered by Snape as arrogance, wouldn't it? The one time Snape had tried to be noble, it backfired in his face. This could account for a lot.

It is possible that Snape and Sirius might have reached some sort of peace between themselves, had Sirius lived long enough to recover from the old grudges and hates that had kept him alive for 13 years in a place like Azkaban. We will never know.

It will be interesting to see if Harry is able to move beyond the old animosities he carries within him from his father and now Sirius. Perhaps Lupin will be able to help him achieve this, as Lupin alone--among that group of peers--seems to have been able to move into an adulthood that is not emotionally stunted by childish hatreds and grudges.

Solitaire


Ann - Aug 21, 2004 7:54 pm (#2134 of 2956)
Well, you can't blame James for moving on, Solitaire, he's dead. And I would bet that very few people, possibly only Dumbledore, knew that Snape had changed sides before the Godric's Hollow episode. It would have been extremely dangerous at the height of Voldemort's power to let anyone know.


Emiko - Aug 21, 2004 8:30 pm (#2135 of 2956)
Wow, to paraphrase everyone else who's missed a day or two (or a week in my case)- you people certainly keep us busy!

I posted something before about Sirius' emotional state during book 5, but to reiterate: I believe Sirius was really expierencing James' abscence for the first time. He'd been in Azkaban (where James wouldn't have been), and on the run (where James wouldn't have been) but in book 5 he's back where he and James were, together, before. He must be expierencing terrible lonelieness/anguish/godknowswhatelse and he probablly is using Snape partially was a vent for all that (hmmm... sound familiar? cough-cough Harry!)

But, I think that Harry, unlike Sirius will be able to overcome his hatred of Snape. I dunno if I can say the same about Snape, but the fact that Harry went to Snape for help in OotP (well, he at least shouted to him) means... a lot. I'm willing to bet 10 galleons that Sirius would have died before he asked Snape for help... Plus, as everyone seems to agree on, the memory thing will be big.

I agree with whomever said that Snape respects Harry. I think Snape probablly does, but he also does more than that. Snape really overestimates Harry, or, rather, he knows exactly what Harry is capable of doing- which is more than everyone else. The greatest example of this is in PoA when Sirius escapes and Snape has a fit because he's sure it's Potter. I know this has been said before, but that could be why he's so hard on Harry, he knows Harry COULD do it. Harry just doesn't feel like it most of the time. I know that irritates me, and it seems like it would drive Snape crazy, knowing that someone has the ability etc. etc. but they're not trying. I guess we'll find out if Harry really does have ability when his OWL scores come out!

Oh, 2 last things... Solitare and Chemist, (about 135 posts ago) Yes, I was talking about picking up the spying job he had left 14 years ago. And another question: Why didn't Snape's Dark Mark burn neal Quirrell? LV was getting stronger as he did in GoF, (although that time he didn't succeed) shouldn't the Dark Mark have alerted Snape?


Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 21, 2004 8:33 pm (#2136 of 2956)
hermy-own: Could Snape forget that memory if he wanted to? He could store it in the pensieve for eternity, or he could destroy the pensieve whilst it contained the thought. Either way he would not have to remember that horrific ordeal.

Then would he have to also destroy the memory of destroying the memory? I don't think it's possible. I don't think you completely forget a memory while it is in the Pensieve. Also, would he want to destroy it? Everything you go through in life makes you who you are. It could be a good reminder of what he doesn't want to be again (if it is, in fact, one of the instances that led him down the road to Voldemort as I believe).

On a completely different subject, it certainly does say a lot that Harry, in a moment of desperation, trusted Snape (when he shouted, "he's got Padfoot!"). It never even occurred to him in that instant that Snape could be on the wrong side even though he later questions Snape's loyalties in Dumbledore's office.


Solitaire - Aug 21, 2004 9:18 pm (#2137 of 2956)
Ann, I didn't say I blamed James for not moving on. Please reread my second paragraph, as I think it is more forgiving of all of them. As for Lupin being the only one able to move on, that isn't a criticism of James or even of Sirius. James couldn't move on because he is dead. Peter is a dirty rotten traitor. Sirius came out of Azkaban (in my opinion) pretty much as he was when he went in. Emotionally he would have been as raw as if it all had happened yesterday, because he would have had no real chance to grieve and no opportunities for closure in Azkaban.

Snape has not been able to put past hurts and grudges behind him either, for various reasons. James and Lily's deaths would have prevented those relationships from ever being resolved. Harry remains a continual daily reminder of Lily and James and any grudges or even failures in that area. Sirius was a thorn in Snape's side, for himself, for his championing of Harry, and for his being a nagging reminder of James and Lily.

It must have been horrible for Sirius to come out of Azkaban only to be forced into hiding. The positives for him are that (1) he was able to re-establish ties with Remus and know that he was innocent of any culpability in the Potters' deaths, and (2) he was able to get to know Harry and establish a caring relationship with him.

Sadly, he was killed before he had a chance to see his name cleared and he was forever denied the privilege of being the surrogate parent James and Lily had intended for Harry. He was also denied the opportunity to mature into the person he would undoubtedly have become, if he'd survived the battle and had a chance to live normally. But in the end, he was able to be by Harry's side when he was needed and die attempting to save Harry ... so perhaps that was his redemption.

As for why Snape's mark didn't burn when he was near Quirrell, perhaps Voldemort was too weak at that time. Also, since Quirrell had met him after his downfall, he probably did not have the Dark Mark. Perhaps Voldemort needed to be able to touch someone's mark for them all to burn. Just a guess ...

Solitaire


Emiko - Aug 21, 2004 9:31 pm (#2138 of 2956)
Ahh.... The touching thing. Maybe you're right, Solitare. I have another question: (tee hee, a week of "vacation" really got my little brain ticking) over in the Wormtail Forum we've been discussing the life-debt thing with Harry, and I feel like the only thing we have to go on with life-debt knowledge is Snape. DD says that "now he can hate your father's memory in peace" (or something to that effect, not a direct quote, sorry, too lazy to go hunt for the book.) Which I took to mean that the life-debt was fufilled. But it sounds like a lot of people believe that Snape still has a life-debt to James- why is that? Do life-debts continue on forever? I wouldn't think so, since Snape saved Harry's life in SS/PS, wouldn't that end it?

And, was Snape acting on his own will? In PS/SS, it certainly seems that way (which, BTW, adds another layer of nobility to Snape's character), but not that we know that life-debt is "magic", like the love-protection, was Snape compelled to save Harry's life? Solitaire mentioned that maybe they'd be forced to save Harry's life, but thought they were acting on their own will... I'd really like to hear people's opinions cause my mind is pretty dry on this one...


Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 22, 2004 5:17 am (#2139 of 2956)
I don't see the "life-debt" thing as something which is morally clear - it would be Snape's personal decision. Just like Wormtail - he doesn't see himself as having a life-debt to Harry, but dramatically, he does. Or like Gollum in Lord of the Rings - same thing.


T Brightwater - Aug 22, 2004 6:18 am (#2140 of 2956)
Solitaire wrote:

"Just suppose Snape had tried to warn James and Lily of Peter's betrayal and tell them Voldemort was on his way there to kill them."

Oh, yes, that would explain a lot - and we've seen Snape act that way before, when he had Sirius cornered in the Shrieking Shack and told Harry that he should be thanking him on bended knee for saving his life. It would seem like history repeating itself - try to do something for a Potter, and see what you get?

But wait, then Snape would have known Sirius was innocent.

But wait, Sirius wasn't sent to Azkaban for betraying the Potters, he was sent there for killing Peter and a lot of Muggles.

But wait, if Snape knew that Sirius didn't betray the Potters, then he also knew that Sirius had no reason to try to kill Harry.

So, either 1) Snape _didn't_ know that Sirius was not the traitor, and went to the Shrieking Shack firmly convinced that he was saving Harry's life and delivering a murderer to justice (and paying back James once and for all, both his life-debt and his grudge)

or 2) Snape _did_ know that Sirius was innocent and chose to ignore it to get back at him.

I hope it's 1.


Hermy-own - Aug 22, 2004 7:05 am (#2141 of 2956)
Then would he have to also destroy the memory of destroying the memory?
- Looney Loopy Larissa

Yes, Larissa, it probably would be impossible to completely wipe out a memory. Could an obliviate spell or something similar also do the trick? If so, Snape has obviously chosen not to use this spell which suggests he wants to remember the memory.
I would'nt be surprised if Snape chose to keep the memory as constant ammunition for making Harry's life hell. Erasing it would prevent him from exacting revenge on James, something he feels would be completely justifiable.
Alternatively, he may have chosen to keep the memory in order to savour the moment when Lily comes to his aid. It has been suggested, and JKR has refused to deny this, that Snape had a crush on the then Lily Evans.


septentrion - Aug 22, 2004 7:15 am (#2142 of 2956)
When you put a memory in the pensieve, you don't forget everything because when Snape caught Harry in the pensieve, he told Harry "your father was a funny man, wasn't he ?" (something along these lines), so it shows Snape perfectly remembered about what the memory was.

Why didn't Snape erase this memory ? It maybe a choice but maybe that spell has unknown for us and undesirable side effects.


Solitaire - Aug 22, 2004 7:25 am (#2143 of 2956)
Brightwater, that is something I'd been wondering about. I just skimmed the Shrieking Shack section again, and it is vague, as far as I am concerned. I hope the following makes sense ...

The Trio, Crookshanks, Scabbers, Remus, and Sirius are in the Shrieking Shack, and Sirius and Remus have just cleared up the misunderstanding between themselves. The last two lines of Chapter 17, by Sirius and Remus, identify Scabbers as a wizard and Animagus by the name of Peter Pettigrew.

In Chapter 18, they launch into the explanation of WHY James, Sirius and Peter had become Animagi. On page 352 (US ed.), they hear a loud creak and the door "opened of its own accord." We now know that this was Snape wearing Harry's invisibility cloak. Remus continues his explanation about his transformations, and he tells the kids about Sirius's trick on Snape. Sirius explains why he did it: "It served him right ... Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to ... hoping he could get us expelled ..." The last line of Chapter 18 has Snape pulling off the invisibility cloak.

Given that Snape was in the Shack at the time, we know that Snape HEARD their explanation about the Marauders becoming Animagi and why; but he persisted that the kids had been under a Confundus charm and that Remus had been helping Sirius into Hogwarts. Unfortunately, he was so unwilling to listen to the truth that he was knocked out by the Trio before Sirius and Remus changed Peter back into human form, so he didn't ACTUALLY see Peter in his non-rat body.

Now, here is the interesting comment made to Harry by Snape (p. 361), before the kids nail him: "Like father, like son, Potter! ... You would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black--"

This really DOES make me wonder if Snape tried to warn James--mistakenly, it's true--that fateful night, that Sirius was the traitor. If Snape truly believed Sirius was the traitor, then all of his comments about James being arrogant, etc., fit. The fact that he HAS now heard that Peter is Scabbers and an Animagus--the one who REALLY betrayed the Potters--and refuses to at least check it out is pretty nasty, I think. Then again, by the time he returns to consciousness after having been knocked out, Peter has already escaped as Scabbers, Remus has transformed, and all he** has broken loose--so there is no way to confirm the story with the actual culprit in hand.

To me, whether or not Snape really "knows" the truth is debatable. Frankly, however, I don't really think Snape really CARES what the truth is, in this case. He wants revenge on the Marauders for the past, and handing over Remus and Sirius will certainly give it to him. It doesn't make him a DE, but it certainly is in character with the vengeful, nasty, grudge-holding Snape that he is.

Given the fact that Sirius was never really guilty and Harry was never in any real danger from him, was the life debt paid? Probably not. Snape would want it to be totally cleared and be done with it, so that he could "hate James in peace," as Sleeping Beauty said on the Was It Snape At Godric?s Hollow That Night? thread.

Solitaire


Ann - Aug 22, 2004 10:08 am (#2144 of 2956)
T Brightwater: So, either 1) Snape didn't know that Sirius was not the traitor, and went to the Shrieking Shack firmly convinced that he was saving Harry's life and delivering a murderer to justice (and paying back James once and for all, both his life-debt and his grudge) or 2) Snape did know that Sirius was innocent and chose to ignore it to get back at him.

There's also a (3): Snape had heard that the Potter's secret keeper had told Voldemort where they were, but he hadn't been told who that secret keeper was, and he assumed it would be Sirius. That way, he could have both been the one to warn the Potters, and still been ignorant of Sirius's innocence. Seems the most likely to me.

Solitaire: The fact that he HAS now heard that Peter is Scabbers and an Animagus--the one who REALLY betrayed the Potters--and refuses to at least check it out is pretty nasty, I think. I just re-read this: During the time that Snape is present, they talk about the three becoming animagi, but there are no references to Scabbers, only that Peter became Wormtail--not even what sort of an animal he is. There is nothing in what he overheard that would lead him to distrust his assumption that Sirius is a murderer, and of course he wouldn't be exactly inclined to do so.

By the way, Solitaire, I'm sorry; I didn't mean to suggest you were blaming James (or any of them) unfairly. I just meant that (unlike Sirius until his death and Wormtail) he was not still consumed by childish grudges, because he is dead.


Emiko - Aug 22, 2004 10:33 am (#2145 of 2956)
I like option #3, mainly because it seems to fit Snape the most. Someone mentioned before that Snape wouldn't mind Sirius' death, but he would mourn the loss of an able-bodied man-of-the-order, if that makes any sense. Well, I believe the same would be true of James, sure he still hates the guys' guts, but not so much that he'd let an important person die just to get even. It seems like it'd be in Snape's character to warn the Potters- execpt... James wouldn't really be "arrogant" because Sirius wasn't the secret keeper- right? So, if Snape told James Sirius had betrayed him, James would just dismiss it. So, if that's the case, the basis of Snape's hatred of James (arrogant show off, etc...) would be mistaken. Because, as Sirius said, James had grown up.

One last point- "he persisted that the kids had been under a Confundus charm and that Remus had been helping Sirius into Hogwarts" - Solitare. What if Snape didn't really BELIVE that HRH were under a Confundus charm, but if he said that because it really got HRH out of the "treachery" loop. Even if he hates Harry, he knows that the only way LV will be defeated is though him, and having him locked up in Azkaban probablly isn't the best way for Harry to do it. And, for all Snape knows, he won. Sirius was locked up, he was getting an Order of Merlin, etc. etc. which could account for the reason he was so furious that Harry helped Sirius escape- he had granted him mercy. I'm waiting to hear what lovely quote contradicts my theory... Smile

Solitaire [/b]- Aug 22, 2004 12:57 pm (#2146 of 2956)
Emiko, it is really hard for me to speculate about Sirius and Snape--and what either knew or believed to be true--because their mutual hatred is so intense. I do not believe either of them would ever give the benefit of the doubt to the other one. For the two of them, it is as though the Hogwarts incidents happened yesterday. Both of them fan their hatred and nurse it and keep it healthy and strong.

Sadly, Harry becomes rather like a legatee of the hatred his dad and Sirius held for Snape. Equally unfortunately, he is also the recipient of the fallout of Snape's hatred for both James and Sirius. Coupling those two circumstances with the way Voldemort was continually invading his mind and emotions--and being scolded and taunted by Snape for not blocking it out--could account for a lot of the angst and anger Harry feels throughout the book. After all, enmity and divisiveness are two of the seeds Voldemort sows among people.

I think Remus is the best chance Harry has of moving past his anger and hatred of Snape. Remus demonstrates better than many that it is possible to put aside grievances and work toward a common goal. And remember, it was Snape's fault that Remus lost his Hogwarts job, so Remus had a pretty recent wound from Snape to get past ... but he did it. Sirius and Snape tried to work toward the common goal (helping Harry) but without putting aside the hatred. Sadly, it just didn't work.

Ann, I am inclined to think that, had he and Lily lived, perhaps James might have been able to get past his dislike of Snape. I think that the more important responsibilities of being a parent and spouse might eventually have mellowed his animosity toward Snape, once things settled down. Sadly, we will never know.

Solitaire


Lina - Aug 22, 2004 2:07 pm (#2147 of 2956)
Well i don't think that Snape cared wether Sirius was innocent or not, he just knew that he is wanted by the law, and it is really very possible that he didn't hear the part when they were saying who killed the muggles.

And I think that he didn't want ANY of the students to be killed, so he didn't go there because of the life debt. He has always wanted Harry to feel miserable, but not dead.

And about the pensieve, I don't think it's purpose is to clear the memory. Dumbeldore uses it to choose his memories and combine them to come to a conclusion he needs. Removing the memory for Snape at that time, i guess, was for Harry not to see the "pictures", but the feelings were left, they didn't go to the Pensieve. And we don't know what other memories did Snape use to extract there. Very probably all concerning the DE phase. And we can't be sure if he was doing it for Harry not to see them or it was just more important that Lord Voldemort don't see them. Because there was not a real danger that Harry would do the Legilimens but LV could do it, and they couldn't know when would he be invading Harry's brain and I'm sure they didn't want him to know what is Snape teaching him...


hellocello3200 - Aug 22, 2004 2:54 pm (#2148 of 2956)
Lina, you gave me an idea. Maybe the Pensieve allows you to see and hear things that you didn't notice when the memory actually occured. Snape probably didn't hear the conversation between the maruders but Harry was able to hear it by going over to them. If Snape wanted to, he could use the pensieve and that particular memory to listen to the conversations the girls were having by the lake for example.


Hermy-own - Aug 22, 2004 3:09 pm (#2149 of 2956)
Cello, if you're right, that would have massive implications. Not just for Snape but anyone who had access to a Pensieve - they could find out pretty much anything they wanted!
The alternative is that the person to whom the memory belongs can only re-live that memory from their point of view i.e. the exact same way they did when it was formed.


Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 22, 2004 3:20 pm (#2150 of 2956)
I believe they could go back in their own memory and notice things they missed the first time, but they would have to stay fairly close to their original self (like Harry makes sure to keep Snape close).
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T Brightwater - Aug 22, 2004 5:25 pm (#2151 of 2956)
Ann wrote:

"There's also a (3): Snape had heard that the Potter's secret keeper had told Voldemort where they were, but he hadn't been told who that secret keeper was, and he assumed it would be Sirius. That way, he could have both been the one to warn the Potters, and still been ignorant of Sirius's innocence. Seems the most likely to me."

Ann, that covers even more of the facts very well! Thanks!

Solitaire, I think you're spot on with the analysis of the Marauders/Snape relationship and how it is being perpetuated with Harry. And I'm also with you on Lupin being the peacemaker. Ten points for your house!

Interesting point, Lina and Cello. The Renaissance "Art of Memory" works a little like that. You associate something you want to remember with a specific visual image (part of a house, say) and sometimes your subconscious changes the image a little and gives you a new insight into the meaning of the memory. (Sorry, I'm not explaining this very well.) It sounds as though the Pensieve helps you look at your memory from the outside, and get a different perspective on it.


Solitaire - Aug 22, 2004 5:46 pm (#2152 of 2956)
I think Ann's scenario of Snape's take on things is probably correct. HOWEVER, if he wanted to be fair, he should have said, "Fine. I'm willing to watch. Tranform him!" about Peter. His own stubbornness created the problem that prevented him from seeing Scabbers/Wormtail transfigure into Peter. Later, when he was told what had happened, he refused to listen and insisted the kids had been confunded and Lupin was in league with Sirius.

Had Dumbledore not believed the facts and put the kids onto using the Time Turner, Buckbeak would be headless, Sirius would have been sucked soul-less, and Lupin would have been in Azkaban ... all because Snape refused to believe that he could misjudge a situation and people!

The bottom line: Snape is just as arrogant as he has always accused James of being. He has unswerving faith in his own abilities to assess people and things. Somehow, he seems to have forgotten his own most critical error ... putting his faith in Voldemort. That episode alone should serve as proof to him that he is not infallible.

Solitaire


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 22, 2004 5:59 pm (#2153 of 2956)
Soli, you just gave me a thought, oh my!

"and Lupin was in league with Sirius." I agree that Severus believes that and wonder how that will play out if Snape, er, Professor Snape and Lupin meet again?


Emiko - Aug 22, 2004 6:24 pm (#2154 of 2956)
TwinklingBlueEyes, what do you mean "if Snape, er, Professor Snape and Lupin meet again?" Because, well, they have met again...


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 22, 2004 6:32 pm (#2155 of 2956)
Now that you ask, I have no idea what I meant. Maybe thinking of books 6 and 7, maybe not thinking. Maybe being up 48 hours fighting with computers has me brain-dead. Anytime I make absolutely no sense atall, just overlook me :-)


Solitaire - Aug 22, 2004 6:35 pm (#2156 of 2956)
Twinkles, they did meet during Book 5, on Order business. Snape had to finally accept that Sirius had not killed James & Lily--a hard pill to swallow, I am certain--so that they could get on with business.

Snape found a way to wash that pill down with a "spoonful of sugar," though; he taunted Sirius every chance he got about not being able to be useful to the Order. Remus would have seen Snape on many occasions during the summer, before Harry got to 12GP and afterward. As I said earlier, he seemed to be adult enough to know that arming Harry and themselves against Voldemort was more important than any petty personal grievances--something Snape would have done well to remember.

Solitaire


Ann - Aug 22, 2004 8:15 pm (#2157 of 2956)
Solitaire: if [Snape in the Shrieking Shack] wanted to be fair, he should have said, "Fine. I'm willing to watch. Transform him!" about Peter. His own stubbornness created the problem that prevented him from seeing Scabbers/Wormtail transfigure into Peter.

But he didn't know Peter was there! He didn't know that they were even claiming that Peter killed the Muggles and escaped!

Snape arrives (PoA, 1st American edition, p. 352), then Lupin tells about his becoming a werewolf and how it was arranged for him to attend Hogwarts. Then he tells how his three friends became animagi. He says Peter was the smallest and Sirius & James transformed into larger animals. Then he tells their nicknames. Harry asks "What sort of animal--" but Hermione cuts him off to reproach Lupin. Lupin admits he has not told Dumbledore that Sirius is an animagus, and says in that sense Snape has been right. Sirus is shocked to learn that Snape is teaching at Hogwarts, and they talk about Sirius's "practical joke." Then Snape reveals himself. He has heard nothing that might make him doubt his assumption that Sirius is responsible for betraying the Potters, killing Peter, and blowing up all the Muggles. Nor does he even hear what animal Peter transforms into, or that Remus and Sirius believe he is in the room with them.

JKR is very, very careful, and very, very sneaky.


Leila 2X4B - Aug 22, 2004 8:34 pm (#2158 of 2956)
I think he chose to reveal himself at a very precise moment. He revealed himself in anger after Lupin explains the mutal emnity between James/Sirius/Lupin and Snape. However, the quote that makes me curious is one that came in the paragraph preceding. The quote in my American Hardcover edition is thus "he's here, Sirius...He's teaching here as well". I know it can be taken as as "as well as me" but I think Lupin is a bit more shrewd then that. The manner in which he describes the "joke" is almost too apologetic for the known company at the present.

However, I feel that it was due to bitternes. If the PoA movie did anything right, it was showing Snape fling out his arms to protect Ron, Hermione, and Harry, as he would have if the situation occured that way.


Solitaire - Aug 22, 2004 8:41 pm (#2159 of 2956)
Well, considering Snape had the Marauder's Map that Remus had left lying on his desk, he should have KNOWN that Peter Pettigrew was with them, shouldn't he? After all, that's how Remus knew it was Peter. And Snape said he looked at the map and it told him all he needed to know. If he saw Sirius and Lupin on that map, he would have seen Peter Pettigrew's name, too.

Solitaire


Leila 2X4B - Aug 22, 2004 8:42 pm (#2160 of 2956)
But it did not extend to the shack itself. Lupin left after seeing Peter and Ron disappear, so Snape wouldn't have known.


Solitaire - Aug 22, 2004 8:46 pm (#2161 of 2956)
I still believe he knew ... and even if he didn't, Lupin asked him to please hear him out. Snape didn't care about the truth; he wanted revenge.

I stand by my previous comment ... Snape is just as arrogant as he has been accusing James of being.


Leila 2X4B - Aug 22, 2004 9:00 pm (#2162 of 2956)
Are sure that James would have listened to someone who, their fault or not, almost got you killed and publicly humiliated you? I think Snape, for all his abilities, still has issues. It is painful to go through life with no-one. All he has, that we know of, is that DD trusts him and Minerva seems to care, at least a little. I think Snape is just bitter and resentful, but then again, wouldn't most people with similar pasts?


waves to Gina and agrees that Snape is a great character*


Solitaire - Aug 22, 2004 9:15 pm (#2163 of 2956)
I'll agree with you that Snape is a great character. As a literary device, I love him. As a potential person, I find his character despicable and frightening. Sadly, the really mean, nasty, morally ambiguous characters often tend to be far more interesting to read than the good guys. They are certainly more fun to write, because authors can imbue them with every nasty, socially unacceptable thought and impulse they've ever had and allow the characters to act on them.

Solitaire


Gemini Wolfie - Aug 23, 2004 2:45 am (#2164 of 2956)
"I still believe he knew ... and even if he didn't, Lupin asked him to please hear him out. Snape didn't care about the truth; he wanted revenge"

Hmm... I've been thinking about this as well and I have to wonder whether Snape knew in the first place that it was Wormtail that betrayed the Potters and not Sirius which would have made the appearence of Wormtail less shocking, afterall, Wormtail was part of the joke as well.

From the way DD admitted that he had made a mistake in having Snape teach him Harry Occlumency lessions, I took it as DD being disappointed that Snape could not put his childhood grudges behind him. I'm pretty sure that DD must have talked countless of times to Snape in an attempt to convince him that James played no part in the joke. Snape, as we know, holds on to his version of the truth, that James was really just saving his own skin so it didn't really matter whether he was part of the joke or not, he did not save Snape's life but rather his own. So I think the key point to the Shrieking Shack incident is not that Snape didn't care about the truth, not that he did not care about the loss of an innocent life, but the fact that his wish to revenge the injustices that he suffered as a schoolboy overpowered all emotions and senses. I just couldn't help thinking back to the Pensieve scene... Snape couldn't stop saying "you wait". You really can imagine how excited he was that he had the two at his mercy. It was his moment at last, if only James was there as well.


T Brightwater - Aug 23, 2004 5:17 am (#2165 of 2956)
Sleeping Beauty wrote:

"Are sure that James would have listened to someone who, their fault or not, almost got you killed and publicly humiliated you?"

Yes, I think he would have. I was about to say, maybe not when he was 15, but James was still at Hogwarts when he risked his own life to save Snape. I think Snape forgets about this. Maybe James was looking after himself (and Sirius, who's the one who really would have been in trouble) but wolf-Lupin could have killed or at least bitten James, too.

Dumbledore also tells Harry, "I knew your father very well, both at Hogwarts and later...He would have saved Pettigrew, too. I'm sure of it."

We've seen James (in Snape's memory) as an arrogant teenager, and even then, within a year of that memory, he risked his life to save that of someone he hated. We haven't seen him, except in photographs, as an adult, but Dumbledore, who knew him, said that he would have saved Peter - and a betrayal from someone you thought was your friend and protector (as the Secret-Keeper) has got to be even worse than an attack by an enemy.

Here's something else I just noticed. (PA, ch. 21)

Snape: "Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen...You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill _me_?" (author's emphasis)

Dumbledore: "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus."

Then Snape turns on his heel and walks off.

Does that suggest to anyone else that Dumbledore could also remember Snape's own contributions to the feud? Or that he remembers something else that Snape would rather not have mentioned? (that Snape killed someone as a DE, perhaps?)


Ann - Aug 23, 2004 5:31 am (#2166 of 2956)
I agree with everyone that Snape is blinded to the present by his past; he doesn't see Harry as an individual because he's so affected by his physical similarity to James; he can't forgive Lupin (at least, not in PoA); and he taunts Sirius like a grammar school kid.

My point, however, is that JKR has clearly set it up so that there are things Snape doesn't hear or know about. She likes to do these big surprises, where you go back and think, oh, so that is why he said that/did that/believed that.

I think the extenuating circumstances are going to turn out to be huge, and perhaps heroic--possibly, as some have suggested, that he risked everything trying to warn the Potters, and could have saved them if James had paid attention to him. JKR's recent remarks about everyone getting too fond of Snape are because she doesn't want us to be too sure of him until she springs her surprise.

That said, I agree, he is a horrible teacher; and irresponsible in his relationship with Harry. (Kids can't control their emotions, but Snape is an adult, and adults are supposed to be able to.)


hellocello3200 - Aug 23, 2004 8:27 am (#2167 of 2956)
I think That JKR is concerned Snape's popularity are because what makes him a good character is his unpredicablilty and his many flaws. I personally don't like it when people make him out to be a poor misunderstood character in need of a hug. With that said, Snape has acted with the best interests of the Order at heart numerous times. (We think)

I think that it's interesting that both Sirius and Snape seem to think Harry is James because of their physical similarities. Both of them assume he is like James, while he differs from him in alot of ways. Sirius expects Harry to be more daring and Snape directs the hate he felt for James at Harry even though Harry hasn't done anything to Snape. Maybe it is part of the theme about "It is our choices, Harry that show what we truly are."


Weeny Owl - Aug 23, 2004 9:25 am (#2168 of 2956)
I personally don't like it when people make him out to be a poor misunderstood character in need of a hug. With that said, Snape has acted with the best interests of the Order at heart numerous times. (We think)

I can agree with this. Snape isn't a nice guy and probably never will be, but niceness doesn't always get the job done. It's similar to the old saying, "it's cruel to be kind." In some cases, kindness can be the worst way to deal with a situation in the long run.

JKR said Snape can see Thestrals. She went on to say, "But you must not forget that Snape was a Death Eater. He will have seen things that? " I do wish she had continued that sentence.


T Brightwater - Aug 23, 2004 9:37 am (#2169 of 2956)
"In some cases, kindness can be the worst way to deal with a situation in the long run."

I know what you mean, Weeny Owl, but Snape's attitude goes way past necessary firmness (such as we see McGonagall and Dumbledore occasionally using) and into gratuitous viciousness.


Sara Elizabeth - Aug 23, 2004 9:58 am (#2170 of 2956)
Going back a bit to the point of whether people like Snape or Alan Rickman, from my point of view it is probably Alan Rickman. I did not start reading the books until I saw the first movie. (Actually I made fun of my adults friends for reading a "children's book". You can guess who is laughing at who now...)So, when I read about Snape I see Alan Rickman. And Alan Rickman has the sexiest voice I have ever heard! I couldn't help but fall for him. They are completely intertwined for me. If I had to create Snape from my own imagination, I don't believe I would like him very much. JKR is always talking about his greasy hair and such.

Sara


Weeny Owl - Aug 23, 2004 10:11 am (#2171 of 2956)
I know what you mean, Weeny Owl, but Snape's attitude goes way past necessary firmness (such as we see McGonagall and Dumbledore occasionally using) and into gratuitous viciousness.

Oh, I don't disagree with this at all. I meant that in the larger picture of whether or not Snape is fooling Dumbledore and the Order, that while his actions can be reprehensible, and his methods may leave a great deal to be desired, in the long run his being kind could do more harm than good because he truly does want Voldemort and the Death Eaters defeated.

He isn't the type you might want to have over for a pleasant afternoon tea, but if you're looking for someone who can be an effective spy, he's your man.

As for liking Snape or Alan Rickman, my first encounter with the series was when a friend sent me CDs of OotP and GoF. I had no idea which was first or if it mattered, and listened to OotP first. Eventually, I got all the books from the library and read them in order and finally bought them. Initially I detested Snape. Since then I've changed my mind as to his motives, but that still doesn't mean I think he's a nice person. As for Alan Rickman, while I love him in the movies, when I read the books, I don't picture him at all. Actually, since I saw "The Two Towers," I picture Snape looking like Wormtongue only with dark eyes.


Ann - Aug 23, 2004 10:49 am (#2172 of 2956)
Hellocello, I think you are quite right about Snape and Sirius and even Lupin projecting their visions of James upon Harry. When Sirius talks about rule breaking, he always implies that he and James broke rules for fun. Harry (except for his illicit trips into Hogsmead) tends not to do this at all--he breaks rules to accomplish things that he sees as necessary (Norbert, the Polyjuiced invasion of the Slytherin common room, D.A., etc.). The effect may be the same, but his motives are almost invariably better.

It is yet another manifestation of the contrast between one's inheritance/blood and one's choices that runs through the whole series.


Laura B - Aug 23, 2004 11:47 am (#2173 of 2956)
Weeny Owl, I agree. I was devastated when JK didn't finish that sentence. At least she said "...he's seen things..." not "...he's done things..." anyway. I've been trying to come up with a theory about what Snape might have seen exactly...the fact that he can see Thestrals is really interesting, though I always suspected he *could* see them. From the interview I think we can assume that it was because of Snape's DE past that he can see Thestrals; therefore the death or deaths Snape has witnessed must have been murder, not a fatal accident or natural death. But whose murder has Snape seen? Could it be Sirius' brother Regulus? Or Molly's relatives, the Prewetts? Muggles? Or even the Potters? And did what he saw prompt him to turn to DD? Ooooohhh so many questions! Sorry if they've been mentioned before, it's my first post and there's so many I need to catch up on Wink And Gina, my avatar still won't load - it must be my computer. Grrrr!


hellocello3200 - Aug 23, 2004 12:43 pm (#2174 of 2956)
Snape might have seen the death/torture of friends while working for Voldemort. We know alot of his crowd from school got mixed up with the DE, but they haven't made an appearance so far. Maybe some are dead. Perhaps they got cold feet (Just because they were probably prejudiced against muggles and muggle-born wizards does not make them killers) or displeased LV. That might explain his break from LV.

As to Snape's personality, he is defently unpleasant. His criticism of Harry doesn't seem to have any lasting impact. (I think Snape himself may have said something to this effect.) However, I think Neville is abused even more than Harry is and Neville is more vulnerable. Maybe there is a reason for his particular dislike of Neville, but it is still a horrible way to treat a student. A teacher welds alot of power in a class-room and to be singled out like that would be scary. (obviously or Neville's boggart would be something else.)


Elanor - Aug 23, 2004 1:15 pm (#2175 of 2956)
About the fact that people may like Snape because of Alan Rickman, I can tell you that, in my case, I've seen the movies only 3 months ago, so they didn't influence me. First, when I read the books, I saw him as a very nasty and bitter man, but I changed my mind at the end of GoF : the way he acted in "the parting of the ways" chapter, when he is courageous enough to show his mark to Fudge in front of Harry really impressed me.

From that moment, I started to see him as a man haunted by his past, ready to do anything to help DD against Voldemort, and prepared for a long time for that. Still a bitter man, not THE teacher that is certain, but someone resolute, skilled and really helpful for the Order. He is not the one students may run crying to but he can certainly help them in his own way.

Well, now that I have seen the movies, I have to say that Alan Rickman is truly adding some kind of dark charm to the character (I love his voice... and have you noticed his hands ?)


constant vigilance - Aug 23, 2004 3:05 pm (#2176 of 2956)
A few posts back, Solitaire said this: "Well, considering Snape had the Marauder's Map that Remus had left lying on his desk, he should have KNOWN that Peter Pettigrew was with them, shouldn't he? After all, that's how Remus knew it was Peter. And Snape said he looked at the map and it told him all he needed to know. If he saw Sirius and Lupin on that map, he would have seen Peter Pettigrew's name, too."

I agree with Solitaire--this was something that always bothered me, and I was thrilled to see this topic come up for discussion. If Snape had only seen Lupin on the Marauder's Map, and not everyone else who was in the Shrieking Shack that night, I don't think he would have felt the need to go after Lupin. Snape was in Lupin's office because Remus had forgotten to take his Wolfsbane potion. Knowing that, and being fully aware that the Shrieking Shack is where Lupin used to go when he was in school, Snape should have just assumed that Lupin had realised he had forgotten his potion and was sending himself away. That said, Snape definately would have known better than to follow Lupin--he made that mistake back when he was in school, and that's how he got stuck with the life-debt to James...

It seems to make more sense that Snape, like Lupin, saw Sirius Black, and therefore Peter Pettigrew, Harry, Hermione, and Ron, on the Map. Being the curious/nosy/vindictive Snape that he is, he decided to follow them into the Shack and take the glory of catching Sirius Black and getting revenge on his old enemy. Remember, Snape did not reveal himself immediately upon entering the Shack. How much he knew beforehand, and how much he heard while concealed under the Invisibility Cloak, is debatable, but he chose to stay hidden---why???? If he was going to repay his life-debt to Harry, wouldn't he have revealed himself immediately?

Edited to add: I really am still on the fence regarding Snape's loyalties, but I thoroughly enjoy reading into everything he does and questioning his motives. So if I seem exceptionally anti-Snape, it's just because I am trying to make sense of him. I happily admit that he has come through for Harry and for the Order on several occasions, but I can't deny that he has also sometimes faltered.


Emiko - Aug 23, 2004 4:36 pm (#2177 of 2956)
Like Elanor, it was in GOF when I finally stopped loathing Snape as I had in the past books. And no, since I read the first Harry Potter book way, way, way before the movies came out (when I was in third grade!) Alan Rickman doesn't define Snape for me.

It's possible that Snape arrived after Ron, Pettigrew, and Sirius were draggen into the willow, but before Harry, Hermione, and Lupin entered. That, to me, makes the most sense, because Lupin watched as Sirius dragged Ron and Pettigrew into the passage, where, presumably, the map ends. Then, Lupin quickly followed. But, Harry and Hermione were still getting wacked by the womping willow, and, if I remember correctly, Snape says he went to Lupin's office shortly after Lupin had left it. If that's right, he would have been in time to see "famous Harry Potter" illegally leaving the grounds with Hermione, and Lupin (the one he's possitive is aiding Black) rushing after them. That, I would think, would be enough to get him to follow. Probablly a combination of curiousity and a "duty" to protect, and humliate Potter. But, he would definitly be confused as to what was going on, which would justify the invisibility cloak- he'd also probablly be cautious, having crawled down the tunnel to meet a werewolf, before. As to why he chose to stay hidden- my best guess is that he wanted to "make an appearance" of sorts. It adds... spice to capturing Black, Lupin, and HRH. And, it puts him in a position of power because of the shock value of his appearance in the shack. But, I don't think that Lupin knew Snape was there, because why didn't he call him out, if that was true. Lupin knew Snape well enough to know that if he was there, his grudge would be a liability to the truth ever coming out.


Leila 2X4B - Aug 23, 2004 4:40 pm (#2178 of 2956)
I want to restate that Snape couldn't have seen Black or Petegrew, he only saw Lupin. Lupin says, on page 348 US, "and I saw another dot, moving fast toward you, labeled Sirius Black...I saw him collide with you; I watched as he pulled two of you into the Whomping Willow. Snape came after Lupin had left and only saw Lupin going into the tree. The map doesn't extend into the shack. Snape wouldn't have known. On page 336, Hermione asks where does the path lead and Harry responds, "I don't know...It's marked on the Maraurder's Map...It goes off the edge of the map, but it looked like it was heading for Hogsmeade".


constant vigilance - Aug 23, 2004 5:13 pm (#2179 of 2956)
Good point, Sleeping Beauty. I didn't necessarily believe that Snape had seen the whole crew on the Map, but his motive for following Lupin seemed questionable. Then again, Snape did not trust Lupin throughout the year, and his suspicions were raised when Sirius somehow managed to get into Hogwarts. Now that I think more about it, Snape might have had no idea HRH were involved until he found the Invisibility Cloak at the Whomping Willow. He probably just went thinking he could catch Lupin and Black, which would win him loads of glory and honour etc. from the Ministry, as well as provide him the opportunity to get revenge on his old enemies.


Leila 2X4B - Aug 23, 2004 5:16 pm (#2180 of 2956)
Now I can agree with that Constant. Lupin and Black were his true targets. He knew where the path led. He just thought he caught Lupin in the act of aiding a murderer.


Emiko - Aug 23, 2004 7:05 pm (#2181 of 2956)
I'm sorry, but is Snape STUPID!!?!?! I mean, he already knows Black's a powerful wizard, and Lupin's pretty good too- did he actually believe that he could capture both of them single handed? Sure, he's good, but two at once? Somehow, it sounds like something he's always berating Harry for! They certainly are very similar, now that you think about it.

That solution does make sense, although, wouldn't he think, like someone else pointed out, that Lupin knew he wasn't safe and left to transform?


Leila 2X4B - Aug 23, 2004 7:08 pm (#2182 of 2956)
Only one of them had a wand. Just Lupin. Snape is quite capable and likely would have succeeded if Harry, Ron and Hermione didn't knock him out. Stupid no, tetchy yes.


Solitaire - Aug 23, 2004 10:23 pm (#2183 of 2956)
I was just rereading "Snape's Worst Memory" regarding something on the Pensieve thread, and I was struck by something I'd not noticed before.

During that entire memory, where Snape is eavesdropping on the Marauders, they are all calling each other by their Animagi names: Prongs, Padfoot, Wormtail ... Interestingly, Sirius and Remus use these names in explaining to the kids who each was ... WHILE SNAPE IS STANDING THERE UNDER THE CLOAK.

Since that particular memory stands out as Snape's worst in the Pensieve scene in OotP, I STILL believe he would have remembered those names and put it all together. I just FEEL it!


rosi reef - Aug 24, 2004 2:28 am (#2184 of 2956)
Since that particular memory stands out as Snape's worst in the Pensieve scene in OotP, I STILL believe he would have remembered those names and put it all together. I just FEEL it!

Sorry, I don't get it, what do you mean with "put it all together"? What did he put together? He only overhears how they all managed to become animagi and that they had some fun with that at school. He is literally told what happend.


Romana - Aug 24, 2004 3:38 am (#2185 of 2956)
Emiko- I'm sorry, but is Snape STUPID!!?!?!

Not really. Snape at school probably wasn't as powerful a wizard than Sirius, Lupin, or James. But since then, he became power crazed and vengfull, and joined Voldemort, who he probably learned a few tricks from. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if at the point in the whomping willow he was more than a match for Black and Lupin put together. We still don't know how powerful Snape actually is as we have not seen him 'fight', but I strongly suspect he is a very powerfull wizard by now.


LooneyLuna - Aug 24, 2004 5:14 am (#2186 of 2956)
We know that Snape is according to Lupin, "A superb Occlumens." Is Snape also a Leglimens? Can he detect lying without doing the incantation? If that is the case, then Snape would have known Lupin, Sirius and HRH were telling the truth. If that statement is true, then Snape let his hatred of the Marauders get in the way of justice.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 24, 2004 5:19 am (#2187 of 2956)
"If that statement is true, then Snape let his hatred of the Marauders get in the way of justice."

Very interesting point Luna, also like his hate of James gets in the way of teaching Harry Occulamcy?


T Brightwater - Aug 24, 2004 5:26 am (#2188 of 2956)
Solitaire, I'm wondering if Snape consciously heard the Marauders' conversation. If he had, he would have known Remus was a werewolf, and I can't imagine him taking Sirius' suggestion about following him in that case. Remus says Snape didn't know until he saw him in the tunnel.

I just realized as of yesterday that the tunnel incident happened in sixth year, assuming that Sirius, like James, is fifteen in the Pensieve memory. Snape says to Dumbledore, "Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen."

What bothers me is, why on earth did Snape believe Sirius? The best friend and partner-in-crime of your worst enemy comes up and tells you. "Hey, if you really want to know where Lupin goes every month, just get a long stick and prod the knot on the Whomping Willow's trunk." That just screams "trap!"


septentrion - Aug 24, 2004 5:43 am (#2189 of 2956)
T Brightwater : "What bothers me is, why on earth did Snape believe Sirius?"

This has been discussed in this thread maaaaaaaaaaaaaany posts ago and some theories had been thrown out :
-Sirius provoked Snape : you daren't follow him ?
-Sirius made sure Snape could eavesdrop something that would lead Snape to the tunnel


T Brightwater - Aug 24, 2004 5:49 am (#2190 of 2956)
Sorry about re-hashing old observations. **bangs head on wall**

If it was provocation, it would fit in very nicely with that exchange at 12GP. "Are you calling me a coward?" "Why yes, I suppose I am." (Somebody probably mentioned that, too. oh, well..)


septentrion - Aug 24, 2004 6:05 am (#2191 of 2956)
don't be soory TB, I know everyone can't read the whole discussion. I just put in my memories of a previous discussion.


Solitaire - Aug 24, 2004 6:12 am (#2192 of 2956)
I just think there may be more to the Marauder incident than meets the eye ... AT THE MOMENT. I'm sure this was not the only incident of Snape following them around, listening to their conversations, and trying to get them expelled. It was just one that showed James and Sirius being particularly obnoxious. According to Lupin, Snape was plenty handy with HIS wand and cursed James every chance he had. Either Harry didn't get far enough to see those memories, or Snape conveniently left them out.

While I am at it ... I'm going to go so far as to suggest that perhaps Snape INTENDED for Harry to see this particular memory. He borrowed the Pensieve from Dumbledore, who may or may not have told him that Harry had looked in it and seen Karkaroff accuse him. He already suspects Harry of stealing Boomslang skin and a few other things from his office, so surely he knows Harry would not be able to resist the Pensieve with HIS thoughts in it. I'm suddenly not so sure it wasn't a set-up! (Hey, I defended Snape for a few days. Now I am playing Devil's advocate for a few! I ride the fence on the Snape issue.)

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Aug 24, 2004 7:44 am (#2193 of 2956)
But if that was what he intended all along, why was he so furious with Harry?


hellocello3200 - Aug 24, 2004 8:01 am (#2194 of 2956)
I don't think Snape let Harry see the memory on purpose. I don't think any one would want some one they hates to see them hanging up side down in there underware. What would he gain from that? I don't think Snape believes Harry to have the moral development needed to feel sympathy. (Even though he does.) He wouldn't want Harry to tell all his friends. ( We know that Harry wouldn't do that, but I think Snape sees him as a arrogant bully like his father.)


Hermy-own - Aug 24, 2004 8:11 am (#2195 of 2956)
"perhaps Snape INTENDED for Harry to see this particular memory."
-Solitaire

Very interesting, Solitaire!
Snape would know that the memory would shatter Harry's idealised impression of his father. *EDIT: Cello posted before me. This is what Snape would gain from revealing the memory to Harry*

Counter-arguement:
If this was a setup, Umbridge and Malfoy would have to had to be involved - it was they who "distracted" Snape (I think Umbridge needed Snape's help to extract Montague from a toilet, so she sent Malfoy to get Snape, which gave Harry the opportunity to use the Pensieve)
I doubt Snape would have allied with Umbridge to any degree - she gave him such a hard time while inspecting the Potions class. In addition, he certainly would not want either her or Malfoy to know of his worst memory.

"It was scary: Snape's lips were shaking, his face was white, his teeth were bared"
"shaking Harry so hard his glasses slipped down his nose"
"Snape threw Harry from him with all his might"
- all from OotP, Chapter 28 - 'Snape's Worst Memory'

You can see that Severus is genuinely shocked, embarrassed and furious. This reaction does not suggest a setup. After all, whenever Snape is up to something he tends to be cool, calm, composed and dare I say usually has a glint in his eye.

EDIT:
I underlined that bit because I'm not 100% sure if is necessarily true or relevant. Your theory may still support itself, Solitaire.


Ann - Aug 24, 2004 8:12 am (#2196 of 2956)
I agree with hellocello. Snape assumes that Harry would tell all his friends and they would laugh at Snape about it. That's what James would have done/did. Surely no one would set a trap with that as the desired result! Of course, Harry is actually sympathetic, and assures Snape honestly that he won't tell anyone, "of course." This just makes the point yet again about Snape's blindness about who Harry really is. He is not James, as both Snape and Sirius seem to think.

And, Solitaire, I really don't think that Snape would have heard the Marauders conversation, and hence know all their nicknames and that Remus was a werewolf.


constant vigilance - Aug 24, 2004 8:35 am (#2197 of 2956)
I sort of think Snape knew who the Marauders were because of his response to Harry's insulting piece of parchment. Snape immediately called Lupin to his office after being insulted by Prongs, Padfoot, Moony and Wormtail. Why would he do this if he didn't know who those names referred to? I don't think he knew it was a Map of Hogwarts because he wouldn't have let Lupin leave with it.


Weeny Owl - Aug 24, 2004 9:23 am (#2198 of 2956)
We know that Snape is according to Lupin, "A superb Occlumens." Is Snape also a Leglimens? Can he detect lying without doing the incantation? If that is the case, then Snape would have known Lupin, Sirius and HRH were telling the truth. If that statement is true, then Snape let his hatred of the Marauders get in the way of justice.

Snape tells Harry this about Legilimency: "It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly."

Legilimency and Occlumency don't seem to be as cut and dried as regular spells. Since they deal with the mind, there are many possibilities as to what and how much can be found out.

In the Shrieking Shack, Snape was operating under emotion. It could be that he heard only parts of the conversation because his history with Sirius was too strong in his mind. Similar to the song "Sound of Silence," where one line is, "People hearing without listening," maybe Snape heard some of it without really listening to what was being said.

So, the part in bold, "under certain conditions," might mean anything, and having control of one's emotions might be part of Legilimency as much as it is Occlumency.

As for the trio being Confunded, it's possible that Snape couldn't imagine anyone ever believing Sirius after all this time. What evidence was there that Sirius was innocent? It wasn't until after Scabbers became Pettigrew that the trio realized completely that what Sirius and Lupin were saying was the truth. Snape loathed Sirius and Lupin, and even if he hadn't, all the evidence pointed to Sirius being guilty.


T Brightwater - Aug 24, 2004 9:29 am (#2199 of 2956)
Good point, constant. It almost sounded as though Snape were accusing Lupin of having given it to Harry, since Lupin was the only one of "the manufacturers" who was alive and easily accessible to Harry. Or does Snape think that Harry inherited it from James?

On the other hand: four names, four personal insults - even if Snape didn't know the nicknames, he could easily have guessed who was behind it. Not only is Snape not stupid, he's obsessed with that group of people.


snowflake - Aug 24, 2004 9:35 am (#2200 of 2956)
It is BECAUSE Snape does not want Harry to see/know what is his worst memory that Snape took these memories out of his memories and put them into the Pensive. P. 639 American OotP "Snape's thoughts...things he did not want Harry to see if he broke through Snape's defenses accidentally...."---"What was it that Snape was so keen to hide from Harry?" Snape is a big puzzle to me. He is so defensive, hates Harry and yet he is the one who always helpes him (at the end, he was the one who notified the others and went after him to the Ministry of Magic).


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Hermy-own - Aug 24, 2004 9:44 am (#2201 of 2956)
"Snape is a big puzzle to me."
- snowflake

I can say the same thing snowflake. JKR has highlighted Snape's darker side but at the same time has given us several hints that things may not be as they seem. It's just great storytelling on Rowling's part, she's left us pondering so many possibilities.
Of course, the only "bad" thing about this is that it makes us even more desperate for HBP!


T Brightwater - Aug 24, 2004 12:38 pm (#2202 of 2956)
I can see why JKR says he's fun to write. She gives us just enough clues to keep us guessing, and just ambiguous enough so that she doesn't reveal him too soon.

Some postings on the Harry Potter thread suggest that what Harry needs is a good cry. I think what Snape needs is a good laugh: a good pounding-on-the-floor, hyperventilating, uncontrollable fit of pure amusement, and if it's at himself, so much the better. That and a shampoo would do wonders for him. :-)


constant vigilance - Aug 24, 2004 1:11 pm (#2203 of 2956)
Brightwater, I would have to say I quite agree with you on that. Laughter has as many healing properties as the best of Snape's potions.


hellocello3200 - Aug 24, 2004 1:38 pm (#2204 of 2956)
Hmmmm... That would be interesting, Snape in a fit of hysterical laughter. He does seem too uptight all the time, and probably a bit paranoid that someone's going to laugh at him. Oh gee, I'm getting dangerously close to becoming a "Snape is Just Misunderstood" person.


rambkowalczyk - Aug 24, 2004 1:52 pm (#2205 of 2956)
I came back from a two week vacation and over 400 messages to the the Snape thread not to mention all the other stuff that got posted to the forum.

There was a reference to a Muggle Net article written by a Cindy somebody (getting old can't remember names)about our favorite character. She points out alot of evidence that shows that Snape is still a deatheater at heart or that he is Dumbledore's right hand man. There may be a third possibility. Snape is extremely prejudiced against muggleborns and muggles. Apparently that fact does not stop Dumbledore from trusting him.

The evidence that I'm using about his prejudice are 1 his treatment of Hermione, 2 not saying anything when Draco says he hopes all mudbloods will get what they deserve, 3 calling Lily a mudblood,and 4 his possible participation in deatheater activities at the Quidditch world cup. This certainly explains why he would have been a good candidate for being a death eater.

So why does he defect? I generally believe he was the one who alerted Dumbledore that Voldemort was going to kill Harry. He does seem to have a revulsion to killing people (at least witches and wizards). I'm thinking of his reaction when he hears of Ginny's abduction in book 2 and seeing Cedric's body in Harry's mind. I think there's more. I think had he killed Harry the wizarding world would have been in more danger and it is this overriding concern for "proper wizards" that prompted his defection not a concern for muggles.

What I haven't decided is whether he hates muggleborns or muggles more. I assumed he hated muggleborns because they tend to be interfering busybodies who (Snape thinks) don't know how the wizarding world works. (think Lily and Hermione). He has probably been told that muggleborns by their very nature disrupt the "natural order" of the wizarding world. They steal jobs from respectable wizards (that is incompetent wizards who think they are owed a living because of their birth right). Since Snape's family probably wasn't that wealthy (I'm thinking of Elanor's remark that Snape flushed when Sirius emphasized that he was in Sirius's house.)Snape had to work extra hard to get by and may have been told employment was difficult to get because all the muggleborns were taking the jobs.

If Cindy is right that it was probably Snape who was the lone deatheater who flipped the muggle's wife, then what's his reason for hating muggles. Yes I think it's possible he was acting in a kind of revenge for what happened to him when he was 15 but that puts him in a rather bad light.

At the beginning of the occlumency lesson Snape extracts two memories and puts it in the pensieve. We know one is what happened to him when he was 15. Perhaps the other is what happened at the Quidditch Cup.


LooneyLuna - Aug 24, 2004 1:59 pm (#2206 of 2956)
Once when Harry broke into Snape's mind by successfully repelling Snape, Harry saw him cowering in the corner, while Snape's parents fought about something - maybe Snape put that whole memory into the Pensieve. Or some other nasty childhood memory.

Which begs the question, what on earth were Snape's parents fighting about?


Siriusly - Aug 24, 2004 2:06 pm (#2207 of 2956)
Snape's mom never washing his hair. (haha)

Which begs another question. Can't you just cast a spell on your head to wash your hair? Like scourgify?


Hermy-own - Aug 24, 2004 2:44 pm (#2208 of 2956)
Haha! Probably. If you could do that then could Harry not use a similar spell to finally make his hair lie flat?

Having said all that, both Snape and Harry may well like their hairstyles as they are...


Scarlet Seer - Aug 24, 2004 4:36 pm (#2209 of 2956)
A little bit back, several people were wondering why Snape is so mean. Well, it's possible that he has to be. Like all the other Death Eaters, Snape has the Dark Mark on his arm, which looks like a skull with a snake coming out of his mouth. Remember that Voldemort's face has been described as "skull-like" and he's a "snake-mouth." One could interpret the Dark Mark as a portrait of Voldemort. If that is so, it's possible that Voldemort could use the Dark Mark as Dumbledore used the portraits in OotP, to collect news about his followers. It would explain why Snape always has to act like a bad guy and also why he insists on calling Voldemort "the Dark Lord," even though it raises eyebrows in the nicer side of the wizarding world.


Choices - Aug 24, 2004 4:51 pm (#2210 of 2956)
LOL Brightwater - I don't know if we'll ever see Snape having a good belly laugh, but you sure gave me one with that remark. Well said!!


Emiko - Aug 24, 2004 7:37 pm (#2211 of 2956)
Maybe Harry could hit him with one of his cheering charms....

Anyways, there were thoughts about why Snape thought HRH were confunded, and I still think that he only said that to protect them. I've posted about this several times, now, so I'm not going to rehash (if you'd like an explanation, please holler), but Snape is definity a wizard (unlike Fudge, in my opinion) who would know if someone was confunded. Especially if he was a Legimens.

I would also like to point out that Snape was prying into Harry's mind during Occulemency- wouldn't that make him a Legimens? I always kinda thought that the two went together...

And, cheers to whomever pointed out the scene in PoA, in the movie, when Snape throws himself in front of HRH to protect them from Werewolf-Lupin. I saw the movie before I joined the forum and, consequently, subjected my poor family to a lecture on the importance of that gesture. I really think that that says volumes on who Snape is. It's not just that he has a abhorrence of murder (which I think he does, as... someone pointed out) but he has a certain respect for life, and doesn't want to see it wasted. (Which would account for his perfectionism.)


Weeny Owl - Aug 24, 2004 7:49 pm (#2212 of 2956)
Anyways, there were thoughts about why Snape thought HRH were confunded, and I still think that he only said that to protect them.

I don't completely disagree with this, although I do somewhat. JKR said not to think Snape too nice. During and after the Shrieking Shack scene, we saw a Snape who was out of control. In the Shrieking Shack he was angry and almost maniacal with joy at finally being able to get Sirius. After, in the hospital wing, he as filled with joy at thinking of Sirius being kissed by a dementor. I can't say I believe he was protecting the trio as much as he was making excuses as to why anyone would be dunderheaded enough to believe anything Sirius had to say, and this was the only reason that made sense to him.


Leila 2X4B - Aug 24, 2004 7:52 pm (#2213 of 2956)
I think he was calling the kids confounded because if they weren't he would have to admit that three children got the best of him without any aid.


Emiko - Aug 24, 2004 8:28 pm (#2214 of 2956)
Good points... Snape could also be calling them confunded, because the arrent of Harry (and Ron and Hermione) would not only undermine hopes of Harry defeating LV, but would also seriously damage the ammount of attention he would deserve for capturing Sirius. I don't know if he'd be consciously thinking that, but it's possibly that subconsciously, that'd be his thinking.

Also, he did admit that they "got the better of him" when he tells fudge that HRH gave him the bump on his head. Would being confunded actually give HRH any special aid?


Leila 2X4B - Aug 24, 2004 8:39 pm (#2215 of 2956)
Well, if they were befuddled, he could blame Sirius. If not he had to admit that the kids got the better of him because they would rather trust Black than Snape.


Solitaire - Aug 25, 2004 12:13 am (#2216 of 2956)
Just remember ... this is not the first time Snape has heard the names Moony, Padfoot, Wormtail and Prongs. He heard them back when he was at Hogwarts and was tailing our illustrious quartet around, trying to find out where they went every full moon. The memory in the Pensieve clearly showed them using those names right in front of him, so he knew to whom MWPP referred.

It is also not the first time he has seen that parchment. It made its first appearance after Harry's head showed up outside the Shrieking Shack on that trip to Hogsmeade. The names once again appeared on the Map, and all of the Marauders' names were on it, insulting him. Lupin came into the office and covered for Harry, taking the map back in the process. But Snape had seen the names on it and with his memory would certainly have remembered exactly to whom those names were referring ... making them fresh in his mind.

He then stood there under the cloak listening to every word Lupin and Sirius were telling the kids about the monthly transformations and how the other three as animagi made his life more bearable back then, etc. Snape is no dummy. I say he was perfectly capable of connecting the dots and knew ... except that revenge was sweeter than having to admit he'd been wrong about Black and Lupin.

Solitaire


Lina - Aug 25, 2004 3:10 am (#2217 of 2956)
It is interesting... when we went to see the movie, my younger daughter, who didn't read the books, saw the picture of Snape staying in front of HRH trying to protect them from the werewolf Which was not in the picture) and reacted: "Yeah, right!" as if this was not possible. So, out from the first two films, she found Snape just a bad guy.

But I really think that he said that HRH were confounded just to be sure that Sirius go back to Azkaban and that he does not have to question his convictions.


constant vigilance - Aug 25, 2004 6:30 am (#2218 of 2956)
What I am desperate to know is *what happened between Dumbledore and Snape?* I have heard others' theory that is what Snape who warned James & Lily about Petigrew, but I have one problem with that. *IF* Snape knew Petigrew was the snitch, why did he think Sirius was so guilty in PoA? Yes,maybe it is because of the whole muggle explosion. Only this would put his Honor on the line for *NOT* at least clearing Sirius' name with Dumbledore and McGonagall.

My thinking is--considering this secret seems to be between Dumbledore and Snape-- that:

1. Snape was sentenced by Voldemort to be killed. This might possibly disturb a loyal Death Eaters. While you may not care about Muggles and Muggle-born Wizards, you might think it seems ridiculous (almost insulting) to follow someone, worship someone,and risk your life for that someone only to be killed by him when you are no longer useful. So, then Snape decided to pull one over on Voldemort. or Dumbledore helped him out of that dangerous situation.

2. There is another life debt that we, the readers, don't know about yet between Snape and Dumbledore. Dumbledore's unyielding confidence in Snape, matched with Snape who, to me, seems most loyal Dumbledore makes me think they have shared something that proves they can trust one another--such as saving someone's life. This sort of relates to how Harry & Ron saving Hermione from the Troll sealed their friendship.

Feel free to disagree, re-work, or give me some knew theories to ponder.


Siriusly - Aug 25, 2004 7:57 am (#2219 of 2956)
Constant Vig:

I am with you. I think Snape and DD were up to their necks in the happenings on Halloween 1981. They are both covering something and I think Harry's fame and glory have something to do with it. I posted an item to the meaning of the prophecy thread I kind of deduced from my feeling and previous posts to that thread.


Hermy-own - Aug 25, 2004 8:01 am (#2220 of 2956)
Yes, constant vigilance, that would explain DD's implicit trust for Snape.


T Brightwater - Aug 25, 2004 9:05 am (#2221 of 2956)
In regards to 1), constant, why would Voldemort would want Snape killed, unless he had already shown some disloyalty? The only DE that we have reason to believe was killed on Voldemort's orders is Regulus, and according to Sirius it was because he was trying to back out.

2) (that there is a life debt or some other significant incident between DD and Snape) looks good to me, especially with the comparison to HRH.

If Snape knew that Peter was the Secret-Keeper and betrayed the Potters, wouldn't he have at least told Dumbledore? Dumbledore didn't know until he spoke with Sirius at Hogwarts.


Ann - Aug 25, 2004 10:05 am (#2222 of 2956)
Two points:

I've suggested in an earlier post that Snape could have found out as a Death Eater that there was a spy close to the Potters, who as their Secret Keeper had turned over the information about where they were to Voldemort. It would have been according to Voldemort's policy that the DE's wouldn't have been told the traitor's name. But Dumbledore knew (or thought he knew) that Sirius was the secret keeper; and Snape probably either knew or guessed the same. Since they both thought Sirius was the only one who could give Voldemort that information.

Secondly, I had a thought last night that might explain why JKR has stressed so strongly both Harry's (and hence our) uncertainty about Snape's loyalty AND the fact that Snape is "a superb occlumens" (a nice way of saying "excellent liar"). Perhaps there will come a time where Snape tells Harry something, perhaps in perilous circumstances affecting the survival of both, and Harry has to decide whether to trust him, based on who he is, knowing that he will be unable to detect a lie. If he trusts him, it may actually lead to a rapprochement between the two of them, since Snape will know that he has no reason to do so but his own true view of Snape's character.


Weeny Owl - Aug 25, 2004 10:40 am (#2223 of 2956)
After Snape's nasty comment to Hermione about her teeth, she still defends him. Sirius said that Dumbledore trusts where others wouldn't, and he trusted Sirius after the Shrieking Shack incident.

We don't know exactly what Sirius said to Dumbledore, but whatever it was, it had to have been a fairly quick explanation. Of course, Dumbledore does know Legilimency, so that might have helped.

On an archived thread about Snape, it was brought up that perhaps one reason Dumbledore trusts him is that Dumbledore is the one who taught him Occlumency. We really don't know when Snape learned Occlumency or if he's just naturally talented in that area.

JKR said that Snape told Dumbldore his story and that Dumbledore believed him. If he would believe Sirius, then whatever Snape said had to be something just as off-the-wall as what Sirius said.

Hermione seems to be the one who sees more in people than Harry and Ron. She knew from Umbridge's speech that the Ministry was interfering, she knew what Cho was feeling, and her trusting that Snape is on Dumbledore's side may just be part of her insight into how people work.


hellocello3200 - Aug 25, 2004 11:00 am (#2224 of 2956)
Perhaps Dumbledore might have been a bit of a father figure to Snape like he is to Harry. He might have seen that Snape was on track to turn into a really nasty person. (Knowing curses, having prejudices and possibly coming from a bad family situation. DD wouldn't want him to become another Tom Riddle. Snape may have gone over to Voldemort but been drawn back by a loyalty to DD similar to Harry's.

I agree that DD might be the one person who could tell if Snape was lying, if not through Legilimency, than by watching for signs of guilt. I think it would be difficult to lie to DD without feeling really rotten.

The theory about the Life-Debt is interesting too. I also agree with Ann that Harry may have to trust Snape sometime in the future.


Siriusly - Aug 25, 2004 1:30 pm (#2225 of 2956)
Ann I really like that choice of having to trust Snape. Sets up the end nicely.


Emiko - Aug 25, 2004 7:47 pm (#2226 of 2956)
Interesting idea, I like it too!


Where is Monkey? - Aug 26, 2004 3:40 pm (#2227 of 2956)
Snape is totally trust worthy! He had a hard time a school, and is finding it hard to forget his past. I think it will out that he is jealous of Harry, just as he was jealous of MWPP back when they were the popular group.

We all know that what DD thinks is pretty much right...imagine all the broken hearts if he turned out to be wrong! He is our rock, and Snape is a good man, deep, deep down.


Archangel - Aug 26, 2004 7:05 pm (#2228 of 2956)
I apologize if this has been discussed before but are there clues to know who the wizard/witch that Snape turned over that almost cost him his life? DD mentioned this in the Pensieve scene in GoF.

It seems that this is the turning point for Snape. After this, DD trusts him 100%. Who is that spy and where is he/she now? What did Snape do or had to do to hand him over to the Ministry that almost cost him his life? How did DD come to know about this?


Solitaire - Aug 26, 2004 7:19 pm (#2229 of 2956)
Knowing his history of fair play, his willingness to give second chances, and his desire to believe the best of people, Dumbledore would be my confidante of choice, if I had damaging or self-incriminating information to spill. He would carefully consider how it should be handled and presented, so that it wouldn't backfire on Snape, if at all possible. I'm not sure the same could be said for Fudge or some of the others. They might be too swift in their rush to judgment and endanger others in the process.

Solitaire


schoff - Aug 26, 2004 7:20 pm (#2230 of 2956)
GoF 30 US590-591:

"Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk."

It doesn't say that Snape turned over a spy, it says that he turned into a spy. Personally, I think Snape told Dumbledore Voldemort was after the Potters, and that he had possibly found them.


Siriusly - Aug 26, 2004 7:31 pm (#2231 of 2956)
I think he told Volde about the prophecy. During the 13 months it took Volde to act, Snape switched sides.


Solitaire - Aug 26, 2004 8:03 pm (#2232 of 2956)
You think Snape told him? Hm ... then was Snape the one in the Hog's Head that fateful night ... the one who was tossed out on his ear?


Archangel - Aug 26, 2004 8:10 pm (#2233 of 2956)
Thanks for the quote Schoff! Couldn't remember the exact words... *** read before you post! ***

But why would Snape be tossed out of Hog's Head? Maybe the person who heard told Snape and Snape told Voldemort...


schoff - Aug 26, 2004 10:26 pm (#2234 of 2956)
Solitaire: You think Snape told him? Hm ... then was Snape the one in the Hog's Head that fateful night ... the one who was tossed out on his ear?

No, I think Dung overheard it. Somehow that info got to Voldemort. It's possible that at the time Snape was a trusted ally, much like Lucius or Bella. Voldemort may have confided this information to him. Either that, or Snape found out the info about the Prophecy from Dung, and *he* was the one who told Voldie about it. Voldie would consider this a coup for Snape, and probably raise Snape's status amongst the other Death Eaters. Whichever way, Snape becomes a trusted member of Voldemort's inner circle.

Then Snape found out that Voldie figured out it was the Potters, and that somehow Voldie knew where the Potters were (or could find them). I don't think Snape knew Peter was the source of the info though.

Snape, either because of the life debt or his feelings for Lily, immediately went to Dumbledore with this knowledge, allowing DD to warn the Potters. Snape needed protection, so DD put him at Hogwarts.


hellocello3200 - Aug 27, 2004 6:30 am (#2235 of 2956)
After Snape told DD, did he continue to spy? If the DE were on to him and he was in danger and had to be protected I doubt he would have been an effective spy. He must have been spying before he told DD about the prophecy. Another possibility was that Snape wasn't in immediate danger but he was a Hogwarts just in case his cover was blown.

"feelings for Lily"? Did I miss something? What kind of "feelings". It is clear that Snape didn't hate Lily like he did James. He has never said anything bad about her to Harry, while he constantly reminds Harry of what a bad person James was. In the memory He doesn't seem to think much of her, but then again, he wasn't feeling too chipper at the moment and his embarrassment could have got the best of him. Lily didn't seem to expect such a rude reply. I guess Snape having "feelings" for Lily would fit.


rambkowalczyk - Aug 27, 2004 7:45 am (#2236 of 2956)
I wonder how much Snape knows about the prophecy. I don't think Snape was the one who overheard it and told Voldemort. Dung is a much better candidate. (although my pet theory is Lucius just to see him tossed out on his ear). What Snape did know is that Voldemort wished to kill Harry. He may even have known that Voldemort had a spy close to Dumbledore but he didn't know it was Peter. Prior to the Potter's death he could have mistakenly concluded it was Sirius and told Dumbledore of his concerns. That might have explained why Dumbledore offered to be secret keeper for James.

There may have been a second reason that Voldemort chose to kill Harry. (the first being to null the prophecy). Maybe it had something to do with Voldemort's quest for immortality, like in order to complete a complicated spell for immortality he had to take the innocent life of a baby. Snape may not have had any love for the baby Potter, but a fully immortal Voldemort may have been too much for him. Dumbledore believed him because he knew that it was a difficult thing for Snape to do to actually help James. Or Dumbledore chose to see this as a good thing Snape was doing and wanted to give him positive reinforcement.


ShelterGirl - Aug 27, 2004 7:50 am (#2237 of 2956)
Or Dumbledore chose to see this as a good thing Snape was doing and wanted to give him positive reinforcement.

--*thinks of DD Clicker Training Severus...*

Nah.

Julie


Weeny Owl - Aug 27, 2004 9:20 am (#2238 of 2956)
"feelings for Lily"? Did I miss something? What kind of "feelings".

Some of the speculation on why Snape hates Harry so much is that it isn't just James's behavior but also a rivalry where Lily was concerned. Snape was in love with Lily but she married James, and Harry is a result of the union of his worst enemy and his only love, so that Harry is a constant reminder of both. People are frequently commenting on Harry looking like James but having Lily's eyes.

Snape did call Lily a Mudblood in the Pensieve scene, but speculation continues that he reacted that way because the girl he had feelings for was defending him which made it even more embarrassing.

It's just speculation since JKR has yet to give us any information about anything other than Snape's loathing for James, and we've had very little about Lily.


Siriusly - Aug 27, 2004 11:45 am (#2239 of 2956)
Wouldn't Aberforth have known that Snape was a DE.

As for Snape and Lili. I think it was Lupin that loved Lili and James won her. Kind of like Ron and Hermione. All those Harry and Hermione people would love that.

I don't get the impression that Snape loved Lili, he was just highly embarrased by being degraded in front of a mudblood.

Could be completely wrong though.


Siriusly - Aug 27, 2004 11:46 am (#2240 of 2956)
Wouldn't Aberforth have known that Snape was a DE.

As for Snape and Lili. I think it was Lupin that loved Lili and James won her. Kind of like Ron and Hermione. All those Harry and Hermione people would love that.

I don't get the impression that Snape loved Lili, he was just highly embarrased by being degraded in front of a mudblood.

Could be completely wrong though. God knows I know nothing about relationships.


Emiko - Aug 27, 2004 12:29 pm (#2241 of 2956)
The Snape-Lilly 'ship is probablly the only 'ship I'm interested in in Harry Potter- I loooove the whole idea of the complicated triangle because it adds nuance to Snape's character (he's capable of love, he has feelings etc...)

I just had a thought- so many people have been theorizing that Snape was the one to warn DD and/or James about LV being after the Potters. One great theory I heard (sorry, don't remember who posted it) was the Snape went to James, and James disregarded him- which is why Snape hates James arrogance. But then, if Snape HAD warned James, he'd see James as not only being arrogant, but of killing Lilly. AND, he'd hate Harry because he was the one who survived. (on top of hating Harry for everything else.)


Siriusly - Aug 27, 2004 1:24 pm (#2242 of 2956)
I think they stated that Snape went to warn them that Sirius had told Volde and that Volde was coming to get them. They, knowing Sirius was not the secret keeper, disregarded this and I think this is why Snape found him arrogant. DD must have told Snape that Sirius was the secret keeper, or like everyone else he assumed it was Sirius because of thier friendship.


Elanor - Aug 27, 2004 1:55 pm (#2243 of 2956)
I agree with you Emiko, the more because Snape always denigrates James in front of Harry but he never said him a word against his mother, never.

The fact that he didn't even mentioned her is relevant. He is maybe afraid not to hide well enough what he was feeling, what would mean that that wound has not been cured yet. And that is really something good for him because that means he has emotions and could feel love - that means hope ! But if that is true, I understand better what he may feel in front of Harry looking at him with her eyes, but in James' face...


T Brightwater - Aug 27, 2004 2:45 pm (#2244 of 2956)
I was convinced until OP that Snape had a crush on Lily, but now I'm not so sure. I can't imagine calling someone you have a serious crush on a "filthy little [extremely insulting ethnic slur]," even if you are embarrassed about having her come to your defense.

I think JKR slipped one right by us. In GF, Sirius listed several people who were in the "Slytherin gang" that Snape ran with, almost all of whom became DEs. Among them were "the Lestranges." (Naturally Sirius wouldn't say "Bellatrix Black" if he could help it.)

If Sirius hadn't seen her since he was Harry's age, that implies that she was a 7th year when he and Snape were 5th years. Bellatrix was gorgeous, pure-blood, presumably already showing signs of the power she would develop, and probably Snape's ultimate image of cool. If Snape had a crush that went sour, she seems a more likely candidate. If she hurt or humiliated him in some way, (and she'd be quite capable of it) that could also help account for his switching sides.


ShelterGirl - Aug 27, 2004 3:43 pm (#2245 of 2956)
Wow. That is possibly a great catch T.

It never would have occurred to me.

I have to go off to think about that one a bit.


Where is Monkey? - Aug 27, 2004 3:43 pm (#2246 of 2956)
"He may even have known that Voldemort had a spy close to Dumbledore but he didn't know it was Peter. Prior to the Potter's death he could have mistakenly concluded it was Sirius and told Dumbledore of his concerns. That might have explained why Dumbledore offered to be secret keeper for James."

I love this theory! It makes sense. If it were true then not only does it show that Snape is on the Order's side, but it can also give strength to the 'Snape loves Lily' theory. He hated James, but was willing to try to save his life so that Lily could also be spared.

I also think that he was too quick to call her a mudblood in the pensieve, more proof....? And to top it off: "Harry looking at him with her eyes, but in James' face..."

Watertight?


hellocello3200 - Aug 27, 2004 4:26 pm (#2247 of 2956)
If Snape did have a thin for Lily, that might explain why he would warn the Potters. It would also explain his hatred of Harry. If LV hadn't targeted Harry, Lily might still be alive. I also think that his lack of bad-mouthing about Lily might indicated feelings for her. It would be an interesting fold to the story.


Solitaire - Aug 27, 2004 6:18 pm (#2248 of 2956)
Elanor, I'd never noticed before, but you are correct ... Snape never denigrates Lily in front of Harry.

Emiko, I do not know that I am the only one, but I did speculate that perhaps Snape had tried (mistakenly) to warn James about Sirius and had been blown off, because James couldn't believe Sirius was a murderer (and of course, he was right). This would certainly account for his dislike of James and his remarks about his arrogance.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Aug 27, 2004 6:27 pm (#2249 of 2956)
Lily didn't attack Snape; James did. Why would he say anything about her one way or another? I don't think Harry would go out of his way to bad-mouth Millicent Bulstrode, for example, but that doesn't mean he likes her; she's just not the thorn in his side that Draco is.

Doesn't it seem likely that if Snape had had a thing for Lily, he would have let _something_ slip? Maybe not "How could Lily Evans have married that arrogant bully James Potter?" in so many words, but something, anyway, especially after the Pensieve incident.

Bellatrix just seems more like Snape's type to me, and since she was in his house he'd have seen a lot more of her, even though she was a couple years ahead of him. She could have been part of his reason for joining the DEs - and part of his reason for turning against them, as well. Perhaps she played him for a fool (we know she enjoys cruelty) or maybe he saw her kill or torture someone and suddenly realized what kind of person she was.


Ann - Aug 27, 2004 6:46 pm (#2250 of 2956)
I like the idea that Snape had a crush on Bella. In addition to her Slytherin-ness, sophistication, beauty & arrogance (which I can see Snape finding irresistible), I'm sure she could be cruelly funny and mean about her annoying cousin Sirius, which he would have loved. And, assuming that Snape turns out to be basically a good guy, it could explain why he hung out with all those evil DEs at all--because of her.

The attraction may even have been mutual--possibly they even had an affair. They were adults, after all, and given Bella's fondness for the disgusting Voldemort with his entrancing red eyes and snakelike nose, Snape's hair probably wouldn't have put her off too much. I wonder if she did the baby-talk thing in bed....oooooh yuck!
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T Brightwater - Aug 27, 2004 6:51 pm (#2251 of 2956)
Ann, maybe the baby talk is what put him off!


Emiko - Aug 27, 2004 8:43 pm (#2252 of 2956)
Whoa, you guys- do I need to point out that HP is a children's book? Even so, it's an intriguing theory. I'm loathe to give it the consideration it deserves because I'm still into the Snape-Lily idea. Somehow, Snape falling for Bella doesn't seem... Logical. Sure, she was pretty, but I get the idea that looks (except for maybe Harry's) aren't a big think w/ Snape, since he doesn't bother to wash his greasy hair. And, with the hatred Snape was expierencing all around him (his parents, MWPP) I would think that he'd be drawn to someone who was compassionate, not cruel. Somehow, Bella doesn't strike me as anyone nice. I think it's quite probable that they were friends at school, but I'm skeptical of whether or not Snape would ever love her.


Prefect Marcus - Aug 27, 2004 8:47 pm (#2253 of 2956)
Snape never denigrates Lily in front of Harry

Why should he? What did Lily ever do to him?


Weeny Owl - Aug 27, 2004 9:24 pm (#2254 of 2956)
I've never quite decided if Snape was in love with Lily or not, but I do think that he did eventually care about her, even if in a platonic way.

The only one I can say for sure is perfect for Snape is Gina, but JKR hasn't written her in yet.


Paulus Maximus - Aug 28, 2004 10:45 am (#2255 of 2956)
I'm really worried about Snape's cover with the Death Eaters. I think it's safe to assume that Voldemort already knows that he is either a coward or a deserter... and add to that what Harry told him: "He's got Padfoot at the place where it's hidden."

To all appearances, Snape dismissed the warning as gibberish, but I'm not sure that Draco Malfoy or the others did (IIRC, they were there when Harry warned Snape.)

Given that Wormtail told the Death Eaters about Sirius being an animagus, I believe it's safe to assume that he also told them that Sirius' alias was Padfoot.

I think that one of the former Inquisitorial Squad is going to blow Snape's cover by conveying the warning to the Death Eaters...

...or perhaps none of the Death Eaters will wonder who betrayed them to the Order of the Phoenix...


Ann - Aug 28, 2004 11:24 am (#2256 of 2956)
Paulus Maximus, I'm not so sure that Snape's cover is blown. Unless Lucius has told Draco Sirius's nickname (and when does he tell him important stuff?), it seems to me that Draco is unlikely to tell him what Harry said about Padfoot. After all, Snape, his housemaster, who always supports him, has dismissed Harry's outburst as babbling nonsense, and Draco is likely to agree.

And even if Draco does tell Lucius, perhaps under questioning (although Lucius is in Azkaban at the moment, remember), there is no reason for anyone to assume that Snape did anything about what Potter told him. But I agree that Snape had better be careful....

(And what is IIRC? Excuse my illiteracy, but I keep seeing it.)


T Brightwater - Aug 28, 2004 11:31 am (#2257 of 2956)
"(And what is IIRC? Excuse my illiteracy, but I keep seeing it.) "

If I Remember Correctly.


Weeny Owl - Aug 28, 2004 11:58 am (#2258 of 2956)
Unless Lucius has told Draco Sirius's nickname (and when does he tell him important stuff?)

Actually, Lucius tells Draco quite a bit of important information. He told Draco about the Chamber of Secrets, although not all of it. He told Draco about Sirius being responsible for killing Harry's parents. He told Draco about the Tri-Wizard tournament. He told Draco about Sirius's Animagus form and about the giants.

Whether or not Draco remembers that specific "Padfoot" exchange after all that happened is anyone's guess. At the moment, Draco is probably more concerned with Lucius escaping from Azkaban than any odd comments to Snape that Harry made. I doubt if we'll see anything come of it in the next book, but sometime in the seventh book, Snape's cover will be blown.


hellocello3200 - Aug 28, 2004 3:12 pm (#2259 of 2956)
I agree Weeny Owl, that Snape will be have to abandon ship sometime, but we don't know why for sure, but I wouldn't put it past Draco to rat him out. (or should I say ferret).

As for the Lily or Bella thing. Is it possible that he liked both. Maybe he liked Lily early on but she wasn't interested so he turned his attention to Bella and she led him on. I doubt that Bella would have really gone for Snape though.


constant vigilance - Aug 28, 2004 6:00 pm (#2260 of 2956)
I really do not believe that Snape's hatred for Harry is the result of Snape having tried to warn James/the Potters that Voldemort was after them and James having been too arrogant to listen.

First, Snape could not have FOUND James to warn him that Voldemort was going to attack them, once the Fidelius Charm had been put in place. The only way he could have known where they were would be if Peter had told him *the secret*, in which case his actions in PoA come into question.

Also, Dumbledore said that Snape had turned spy for the Order before Voldemort's downfall. Snape told Umbridge that he had been at Hogwarts for 14 years, which means he started teaching in September the year the Potters were attacked. If Snape had proved that he had left Voldemort by telling Dumbledore or James that LV was after the Potters, then he wouldn't have been trusted to teach until after the school year had begun.

So, it could be argued that Snape turned spy during Harry's first year alive, and told Dumbledore that Voldemort was seeking to kill Harry. (My question: Why would Snape suddenly care about the life of this particular boy?) Well, it would be useful and it would give Dumbledore reason to believe Snape had switched. But if that's what happened, James did not ignore this warning. The Potters were hiding from Voldemort. They chose to use the Fidelius Charm because they knew someone in the Order was playing double-agent. If the Potters went into hiding based on Snape's word, it can't be said that James arrogantly dismissed this word, because they did try to escape Voldemort. The Potters did everything they could to keep themselves and Harry away from Voldemort, and Peter betrayed them.


Ann - Aug 28, 2004 6:11 pm (#2261 of 2956)
First, Snape could not have FOUND James to warn him that Voldemort was going to attack them, once the Fidelius Charm had been put in place. The only way he could have known where they were would be if Peter had told him *the secret*, in which case his actions in PoA come into question.

Great point, constant vigilance! And one that might well be made on the "Was it Snape at Godric's Hollow" thread, where if it has been brought up, it surely hasn't registered. But it's still possible that Snape told Dumbledore, and Dumbledore got a message to the Potters, and James assured him it was impossible. Or, I suppose, Snape may have been able to reach James by owl--they seem to be able to find 12 Grimauld Place without problems. But I agree with you that Snape must have "turned spy" before that.

T Brightwater, thanks for the translation!


Emiko - Aug 28, 2004 6:14 pm (#2262 of 2956)
That is an excellent point, and I'm kind of relieved someone found a flaw in that theory, because, while I liked it, it never felt quite right. Way to go!

But, you see, that still leaves the question of why Snape turned spy in the first place, and why DD trusts him.


Siriusly - Aug 28, 2004 6:36 pm (#2263 of 2956)
If Snape was with Volde when Peter told, he would have been able to find the Potters.


Solitaire - Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm (#2264 of 2956)
I've often wondered about the "Snape at Godric's Hollow" business. Good point, constant vigilance.

On the other hand ... if Snape WAS with Voldemort when Peter gave up the secret--and he KNEW that Peter/Wormtail was the spy--then it puts rather a different spin on his conduct toward Sirius and Remus in PoA in the Shrieking Shack. Snape would have KNOWN that Peter and not Sirius was really the one responsible for selling out James and Lily. Even if he had believed Sirius killed Peter in retaliation for their murders, he would have understood why, given his knowledge that Sirius loved James like a brother. This would make his plans to hand Sirius to the Dementors even more despicable.

I really like the suggestion of a Snape/Bella attraction. I am not into the 'ship thing, but I can see Snape being lured into joining the DEs because he is infatuated with Bella. It would have put him into the midst of a very powerful group of people, and no one would be laughing at him then. The Blacks and Malfoys were undoubtedly wealthy and powerful families even back then.

Solitaire


schoff - Aug 28, 2004 10:35 pm (#2265 of 2956)
constant vigilance: First, Snape could not have FOUND James to warn him that Voldemort was going to attack them, once the Fidelius Charm had been put in place.

He could have found them before the Charm was put in place--hence the need of the charm. I have always been under the impression that the Charm was not in effect for very long before Voldemort attacked. Possibly a week, month at most. Snape being at Hogwarts in September, and the Potters dying at the end of October, gives Snape plenty of time to tell DD/James Voldemort's after Harry and to cast the Charm that hid the Potters.



Solitaire - Aug 29, 2004 9:40 am (#2266 of 2956)
I may not be understanding the charm properly--I have gone to several sites for explanations--but it seems that even if someone knew the location of the Potters' home (like Sirius, for example), once the charm was put on it, even he would not be able to find it. Only the Secret Keeper would be able to reveal the whereabouts.

If this is the case, how could Snape have found the Potters' house once the spell had been cast--unless he was present and heard Peter reveal it to Voldemort? And I believe you are correct, Schoff ... it is not a very long period of time between the placing of the charm and the night they are killed. I know I have read this somewhere, but I can't remember if it was in one of the books, an essay, or a post here on the Forum.

Some of the sites I've read suggest that this is why Voldemort has not been able to enter Hogwarts ... a Fidelius Charm was cast on it by Dumbledore AFTER Riddle left Hogwarts. Lucius still knows the whereabouts, but as he is not Secret Keeper for Hogwarts, he is unable to reveal the whereabouts to anyone.

It sounds weird to me--since it seems that anyone who has been somewhere (the Potters' house, Hogwarts, 12GP) would be able to find the place again, charm or no charm--but that is how I've seen it explained. Maybe I need to go to the Fidelius thread and read what they say there. If anyone can explain it more clearly, please click on my name. There is an alternative email address in the info I posted.

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Aug 29, 2004 9:56 am (#2267 of 2956)
Solitaire:

This is part of what was said about it: As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!

Snape could still be the one to have told Dumbledore about Voldemort knowing about the Prophecy, though, but even if he did, I think there's more to his switching sides than only that.


schoff - Aug 29, 2004 12:13 pm (#2268 of 2956)
Solitaire: If this is the case, how could Snape have found the Potters' house once the spell had been cast

Snape could have gone to the House before the Charm was cast. Personally, I don't think anyone knew October 31, 1981 was the day Voldemort was going to attack (except maybe Peter)--and I don't think the Potters had any warning that night that Voldemort was there (or coming). Snape just knew Voldemort was after the Potters, and warned people accordingly. He may even have known there was a traitor close to the Potters, but since that traitor wasn't yet the Secret Keeper, James, Sirius, and DD tried to take steps to avoid placing the traitor in a position of importance (which failed miserably).

Then the Charm was cast, and Snape found out that Voldemort knew how to find them. Snape then just went to DD (the only one he could find) and told him.

Solitaire: --unless he was present and heard Peter reveal it to Voldemort?

Snape could not have been present during this exchange, or he would have known Peter was the true traitor. If Snape knew this, he would have told DD, and DD didn't know in PoA. I seriously doubt that Snape even had the remotest idea that Peter was even a Death Eater. He, like everyone else, most likely assumed it was Sirius--after the fact.


Solitaire - Aug 29, 2004 12:24 pm (#2269 of 2956)
Weeny, I just read the entire Fidelius thread. I am sorry to say that I really do not understand the finer workings any better than I did.

I understand the basic workings of the charm as you explain it here, but I already knew as much from reading. The peripheral issues, however--those concerning whether people (Sirius & possibly Snape) who knew about the location before the charm was put into place could find the charmed location--remain as murky as ever.

People seem to differ on exactly WHO can find places under the charm and what happens either when the protected location is betrayed and those in hiding are destroyed or the Secret Keeper is destroyed. I feel JKR must explain this more fully.

Regarding Snape, I think the issue of the Fidelius charm does cast doubt on whether or not he could have been at Godric's Hollow that night. Why might the second person not have been Peter ... if he was the one to betray the Potters? Isn't it possible that he took Voldemort there and showed him the house? That might account for the pesky question of where Voldemort's wand had been all these years.

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Aug 29, 2004 2:02 pm (#2270 of 2956)
Solitaire, I'm not sure if the Fidelius Charm is location-specific only. It seems that with Grimmauld Place the charm is on the house itself, but I think that with the Potters, the charm was on them maybe. That's one of the things I hope JKR explains some day, either in the series or in a reference-type book after the series is over.

I do agree with schoff about Snape not knowing Pettigrew was a Death Eater and about the possibility of Snape knowing Voldemort found out but not knowing the specifics of how he found out.


constant vigilance - Aug 29, 2004 3:28 pm (#2271 of 2956)
I would also love to know more about the Fidelius Charm. It does seem that with the case of the Potters it was cast on them, rather than on their hiding place, which could explain why Sirius and Hagrid were able to see what had happened on the night of the attack (after Voldemort left). And I think Solitaire's explanation, that Wormtail was with Voldemort on the night of the attack, could explain what happened to Voldemort's wand (and possibly explain why the rebounded AK curse didn't appear in the Priori Incantatem). But then what happened to the wands (both Peter's and Voldemort's) when Wormtail blew up the street?

Of course, that discussion is for another thread, so going back to Snape. Even if he did tell Dumbledore that Voldemort was going to attack the Potters, that doesn't explain his description of adult James as arrogant. They did respond to the warning that they were in more danger than even before--that's why they used the Fidelius Charm.

Aside from that, I still find it hard to believe that his conversion from Death Eater to Order member was because of the Potters. Snape is a Slytherin, and as Phineas Nigellas reminded us, Slytherins will not risk their life if there is nothing in it for them. What did Snape have to gain from protecting the Potters? Naturally I am open to hearing other people's opinions on the matter, so if you have any evidence that I am missing please share it!

If Snape warned Dumbledore about Voldemort's plan to attack the Potters, then I want to know why. It could be as simple as his life-debt to James, but I'm not convinced of that. Snape could have tried to protect James without switching sides in the war. Maybe Snape heard part of the prophecy and didn't want the only boy who had the chance to kill Voldemort to die. That is possible, but if that's the case I have to wonder what happened to cause Snape to suddenly not want to support his master? Did Snape see something in Voldemort or the Death Eaters' actions that he didn't agree with? If so, what? He was a Death Eater for a few years, and I want to know what made him switch. I think it must have been something significant because to have been a part of a group that practices prejudicial torture and murder...well...Snape must have believed in some of the dogma for awhile, so what changed his mind to suddenly feel it was wrong?


Siriusly - Aug 29, 2004 3:40 pm (#2272 of 2956)
In the end of book 5 there was a wasp hanging around the last seen. Now I thought this was Rita, and her animigus had changed with her anger. But I have been reading all for another thread and I ran across a little note of Snape saying something "waspishly". This is the only reference I've ever seen in the books regarding a wasp. Do you think this is how Snape is spying on the DE's? Just a thought.


schoff - Aug 29, 2004 3:40 pm (#2273 of 2956)
Constant Vigilance: Snape must have believed in some of the dogma for awhile, so what changed his mind to suddenly feel it was wrong?

Who said he did it suddenly? His change of opinion may have been a long time coming, and not all at once.

Constant Vigilance: ...that doesn't explain his description of adult James as arrogant.

Like Snape would ever say anything remotely nice about James, even if James did listen to his advice. Snape's stuck in the past, much like Sirius was.


constant vigilance - Aug 29, 2004 4:07 pm (#2274 of 2956)
Schoff, whether it was suddenly or not, I don't really think is all that important. The point is that Snape switched sides, and nobody except Dumbledore seems to know why. I say only Dumbledore knows because it doesn't seem as if anybody else trusts Snape the way Dumbledore does, which to me indicates that something happened that Dumbledore alone is aware of.

And if Snape was really so stuck in the past (and we know he is) then why would he have gone to James's aid? It just doesn't make sense to me.


schoff - Aug 29, 2004 4:17 pm (#2275 of 2956)
I say only Dumbledore knows because it doesn't seem as if anybody else trusts Snape the way Dumbledore does

McGonagall and Hagrid trust him. Hagrid was forever defending him to the trio during P/SS. Lupin trusted him too (re the brew). I assume Flitwick trusts him as well.

And if Snape was really so stuck in the past (and we know he is) then why would he have gone to James's aid?

Because he owes James a life-debt.


constant vigilance - Aug 29, 2004 4:26 pm (#2276 of 2956)
Point taken, schoff, regarding McGonagall and Hagrid. But I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the other issue. My reading of the evidence just doesn't support the theory that Snape tried to warn the Potters, but we are all free to have our own opinions and I respect that.


schoff - Aug 29, 2004 4:34 pm (#2277 of 2956)
It's the simplest reason IMO. Occam's Razor and all that. Otherwise there's another huge motive for Snape out there, and I haven't seen it. Or another unknown key *core* character, and I think those are all in place now.


Paulus Maximus - Aug 29, 2004 4:37 pm (#2278 of 2956)
"Dumbledore had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he warned the Potters to go into hiding. Well, it's not easy to hide from You Know Who..." Or something like that.

I'm of the opinion that it wasn't Snape who tipped APWBD off. To conclude that Snape tipped him off would be to rely on too many assumptions, some of them less than probable.


T Brightwater - Aug 29, 2004 6:40 pm (#2279 of 2956)
Snape is a very bitter person who can't let go of a grudge. It's at least a possibility that he left the DEs because one of them hurt or humiliated him worse than James and Sirius did. I'm reasonably sure it wasn't Lucius, or Snape would have a very difficult time pretending to be friends with him. It might have been Voldemort; perhaps he ridiculed Snape in front of his colleagues for some mistake or other. I suppose it could be any of the DEs, but my vote is still for Bellatrix.

I know this is a stretch, but could an old and painful memory of Bella be behind Snape's reaction to Sirius saying, "It's my house, you see."?


Emiko - Aug 29, 2004 7:12 pm (#2280 of 2956)
Snape could have switched sides because of what the DEs were doing. It's one thing to know a lot of Dark Arts and use them against your nemessis' (aka MWPP). It's quite another to pick on innocent people, kill and torture them for fun. Snape, as has been pointed out, is a Slytherin- what was he getting out of being a DE? Certainly not power, LV remains the sole leader, and humiliates all the rest. Why would Snape want to grovel? It's just not Snape! (Now that I think about it, it's really not Lucius Malfoy, either.) People have pointed out that Snape has a respect for life. He doesn't like Sirius, and probablly won't mourn his death, but he'll mourn the loss of a member of the order. I think that holds true for most things. If so, he would have seen participating in the DEs as a waste, and, well, as a crime. I'll look for cannon to support this, but Snapes change in sides may have nothing to do with the Potters. In fact, I'd rather it had nothing to do with the Potters, because then he made his choice to "turn spy at great personal risk" based on his own feelings and beliefs, not as a result of any external influences.

I'm still skeptical about Bella, I like Snape too much to believe that he'd give his heart to someone so obviously evil!


T Brightwater - Aug 29, 2004 7:32 pm (#2281 of 2956)
"I like Snape too much to believe that he'd give his heart to someone so obviously evil!"

Fair enough, Emiko :-) And I'll admit that I _don't_ like Snape, but I'm trying to be objective.

Picture Snape as a teenager. We know he was obsessed with the Dark Arts; he seems to have had the typical Slytherin prejudice against Muggle-borns; he was smart and a serious student. Now picture Bellatrix as a teenager. She's a pureblood, very good-looking, from a family that has a long tradition of the Dark Arts (judging by the stuff in 12 GP), probably also very smart and powerful. I suspect she had that aristocratic manner she displays in the trial scene even when she was at Hogwarts. It seems to me that young Severus would find her devastatingly attractive. Perhaps she wasn't obviously evil at that point, only ambitious and unscrupulous, and I can't see Snape objecting to either of those. Bella probably turned quite a few heads at Hogwarts, maybe not all of them in Slytherin either.

Anyway, sorry for going on about this so much. We'll see if anything comes of it in HBP!


Weeny Owl - Aug 29, 2004 7:48 pm (#2282 of 2956)
The only thing about Snape being... err... fond, I suppose, of Bella is how long that would take (as far as number of pages) to explain, and would it really be anything that would make Snape switch sides?

I'm not saying he's never been attracted to a woman, but considering a war was going on at the time, it seems that whatever made Snape go to Dumbledore would have to be something that shook Snape's beliefs big time.

I can see him resenting James and Harry if he was attracted to Lily, but I just can't see him caring so much about Bella that anything she did made him leave, unless it was something really horrid such as torturing a child.

People were dying right and left during the first war, and JKR said Snape can see Thestrals. I wonder if Snape saw someone innocent being murdered in a truly sadistic way.

I can't quite see Snape leaving the Death Eaters over a bit of humiliation. It seems that Voldemort does that frequently, so Snape would still be part of the group and would expect it from time to time. That doesn't mean that being humiliated wouldn't be a chink in the armor that eventually led him to switch sides, but I don't see anything like that being the sole reason.

Lore..!! [/b]- Aug 30, 2004 6:54 am (#2283 of 2956)
I've been wondering about snape since i finished reading GoF.. I think there's a lot that we don't know about snape.. but I think that we won't be like that for too long... Now everyone knows that Voldemort is back and snape will have to either work as a double "agent" or be a death eater.. Cuz I know voldemort wouldn't let him go without doing serius damge or even killing him, as he has done with everyone who has tryed to change side..


Casey - Aug 30, 2004 7:13 am (#2284 of 2956)
I've been thinking alot about Snape too. I still can't figure him out. Does anyone think he'll die? A friend of mine thinks he might die saving Harry's life. Sort of the way he sheltered the three of them from the werewolf in the POA movie. I don't know. I thought it was an interesting idea, so I posted it.


Elanor - Aug 30, 2004 8:20 am (#2285 of 2956)
Well, Casey, Snape is playing a dangerous game indeed, and I think he may die saving Harry's life, or because he won't betray DD if he is unmasked by Lord-no mercy-Voldemort. I just hope he won't have to.


Paulus Maximus - Aug 30, 2004 8:40 am (#2286 of 2956)
"because he won't betray DD if he is unmasked by Lord-no mercy-Voldemort."

Either there is a Death Eater unaccounted for, or Snape has already been unmasked by LV as either a coward or a deserter.

Probably the latter, since Voldemort did not mention Snape by name when taking roll of the Death Eaters who answered his summons.

He didn't mention the names of the coward, the deserter, or the most faithful either, but he knows their names even if the rest of the Death Eaters don't...


rambkowalczyk - Aug 30, 2004 8:46 am (#2287 of 2956)
James may have saved Snape's life because he knew Sirius's trick had gone too far. Snape's view on this is that had James' not have done it, James would have been expelled. Snape assigns a Slytherin reason for James gesture. I propose that if Snape tried to save James' life by warning of Voldemorts attack (Voldemort intended to kill not only Harry but James as well), he did it not necessarily because he wanted to save James' life but because he wanted to show Dumbledore he was better than James. That is, his reason for saving James' life was far more noble than James' reason for saving his life. Kind of a sibling rivalry for Dumbledore's admiration.

As to whether there was relationship between Severus and Bella, I would say maybe. In some respects he is the wizarding equivalent of a nerd. (smart in the hard subjects, no social grace). It is conceivable that someone like Bella recruited him to be a death eater offering various temptations and he could be naive enough to think that she was interested in him as a desirable person instead of a tool for Lord Voldemort. At some point he would be deeply hurt, but I don't think this was the reason for his defection. I suspect death eater are allowed some leeway to get back at other death eater for revenge, saving face, or to gain points with Voldemort. Also this would be too much of a soap opera plot and JKR doesn't seem to use that kind of plot.

As to whether he will die, consider the Christmas dinner in POA. Trelawney says whoever gets up first from a table of 13 will be the first to die. Harry and Ron get up together so if this particular superstition is true, either Harry or Ron will die. Since Snape was also at this table he won't die unless Ron dies first. I doubt that if Harry dies first, that Snape will die later.


Weeny Owl - Aug 30, 2004 9:19 am (#2288 of 2956)
Does anyone think he'll die? A friend of mine thinks he might die saving Harry's life.

I really hope this doesn't happen because it would be just too cliche, for me anyway. Now if he died saving Lupin's life or Hermione's I could see it more.

Either there is a Death Eater unaccounted for, or Snape has already been unmasked by LV as either a coward or a deserter.

Probably the latter, since Voldemort did not mention Snape by name when taking roll of the Death Eaters who answered his summons.

He didn't mention the names of the coward, the deserter, or the most faithful either, but he knows their names even if the rest of the Death Eaters don't...

Voldemort didn't mention quite a few Death Eaters, though. Harry said he was outnumbered by about 30 to 1, and Voldemort didn't actually name that many people.

hellocello3200 [/b]- Aug 30, 2004 9:54 am (#2289 of 2956)
I think the Snape/Bella thing is interesting but I doubt that that alone would cause Snape to switch sides. I suspect that he was like Regulus. He may have thought LV was on the right track in the beginning but when he saw the cruelty expected of him he had moral misgivings. Perhaps some of those friends of his from school that turned into death eaters were killed by LV because they tried to back out.


Solitaire - Aug 30, 2004 11:16 am (#2290 of 2956)
Since the DEs are always masked (unless it is torn off or a wand poked through the eyehole) and robed, there were some in the graveyard whose identities remain a mystery. Could one of them have been Snape? The consensus seems to be no, since he would not have been able to get to the graveyard and back without apparating.

There is an editorial on Mugglenet that argues three possible positions for Snape: Severus the Death Eater, Severus for the Order, and Severus for himself. What is interesting to me is that the author presents compelling evidence for each position.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 30, 2004 12:00 pm (#2291 of 2956)
Soli, that is a very insightful, well thought out article on Mugglenet. I was almost convinced Snape was a good guy, sorta. Now I'm back on the fence. (Sighs)


Siriusly - Aug 30, 2004 12:18 pm (#2292 of 2956)
Oh Twinkles, I hope that's not picket.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 30, 2004 12:20 pm (#2293 of 2956)
No, is not a picket fence, but has splinters just the same.


Solitaire - Aug 30, 2004 9:48 pm (#2294 of 2956)
Ouch!! I don't think picket fences (or those with concertina wire, for that matter) make good fences on which to sit!

Twinkles, I DO tend to think Snape is probably on the up-and-up, since I value Dumbledore's insight into people. But the author did a pretty convincing job of arguing all points equally, I felt. She would have made an interesting debate student. She could have debated herself!


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 30, 2004 10:12 pm (#2295 of 2956)
On 93rd thought, I think he is too. I too value Dumbledore's insight, fore-sight, hind-sight, etc. But, as has been shown, he can be wrong, can miss things...is not as omnipotent as we are lead to believe. He's a hero, a rescuer in Harry's eyes, which is the view we have, and yet he's fallible, he has human failings, in spite of his "great plan".

The reason for his trust in Snape ought to be really interesting. Everyone trusts Dumbledore, but I think is really important who Dumbledore trusts. "I'd trust Hagrid with my life." comes to mind. His trust in Snape seems to be on the same level.

Whew, off fence, on the good side again, danged splinters! It's amazing what you can talk yourself into!


Solitaire - Aug 30, 2004 10:25 pm (#2296 of 2956)
Oh, dear, Twinkles! Perhaps you'd better invest in a pair of cast-iron bloomers. (I am ordering a pair myself.) Fence-sitting can be a dangerous spectator sport, and I see lots of fences in the coming books.

I, too, will be fascinated to find out the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape. It must be a doozy. (To me, the word connection between snake/Snape is too obvious.)

Lately, though, I worry about Harry ... Has anyone else gotten the idea that Harry has begun to see Dumbledore as fallible? In Book 5, he has seemed to lose some of his faith in Dumbledore--at least, that is my perception. Does anyone else sense this? (I guess this belongs on the DD thread.)

Solitaire


TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 30, 2004 10:28 pm (#2297 of 2956)
Moving to DD thread.


septentrion - Aug 31, 2004 12:01 am (#2298 of 2956)
Someone on another thread has quoted the interview JKR and Steve Kloves gave on the DVD (CoS I think), where Jo stated that pieces of information given by either DD or Hermione are reliable. Then, both Hermione and DD supports Snape. To my mind, that is an important clue of Snape being on the good side, which isn't the same as being a good guy.


T Brightwater - Aug 31, 2004 5:23 am (#2299 of 2956)
As Richard Nixon allegedly said about Chiang Kai-Shek, "He's a (expletive deleted), but he's _our_ (expletive deleted.)"

(okay, I'm dating myself...)


T Brightwater - Aug 31, 2004 7:25 am (#2300 of 2956)
I'm flattered, Zhigulii! I didn't know Dumbledore, but let me tell you, Fred and George Weasley had _nothing _ on Griselda Marchbanks... :-)

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Siriusly - Aug 31, 2004 2:59 pm (#2301 of 2956)
I was fascinated by the Snape is really an Evans conversation earlier. Got me thinking.

I started playing with the anagram. Did you know there is a constellation named "Serpens" the snake. I got really excited and thought we were going to bust this thing wide open. But, Alas we are missing an N. Anyone know Snape's middle initial?

That would have answered so many questions. If Snape were actually Serpens U. Evans he would be Lili's brother/half brother? Sirius' cousin. They pick on each other like family.

But no N.

Back to the drawing board.

Edit: Malfoy's would be cousins also.


Emiko - Aug 31, 2004 8:03 pm (#2302 of 2956)
Solitaire, I noticed Harry finally letting go of his "Dumbledore is infallible" picture, as well. But, I see it as a good thing. Perhaps now that Harry sees DD as a PERSON, he'll be able to see that he, too, is capable of the same greatness- a confidence that could lead up to LV's destruction. It could also mean that he'll see it isn't up to DD to pull a magical solution from thin air (it suggests that that's what he believed DD could do in PoA), but that it's up to him to find a solution to the LV problem.

So... back to Snape- sorry, but HOW ON EARTH DOES SNAPE RELATE TO EVANS??? Not that I'm yelling, I'm just extremely confused, someone, please, enlighten me!


Siriusly - Aug 31, 2004 8:08 pm (#2303 of 2956)
Someone did an anagram and got Evans out of it, opened the whole door.

You know, that Persuas Evans, or something like that, meaning persues Evans.

I just took it a little further. Just goofing around.


Chemyst - Sep 1, 2004 5:38 am (#2304 of 2956)
Since the DEs are always masked (unless it is torn off or a wand poked through the eyehole) and robed, there were some in the graveyard whose identities remain a mystery. Could one of them have been Snape? The consensus seems to be no, since he would not have been able to get to the graveyard and back without apparating. - Solitaire There is no consensus. There was adequate time.


Emiko - Sep 1, 2004 8:30 pm (#2305 of 2956)
Was there time? While we don't know where Snape was during the maze (it can be assumed he was in the stands w/ the rest of the school since LV hadn't yet summoned the DEs) we do know where he was shortly after Harry returned to Hogwarts.

Harry gets back, is completly disorientated, and is whisked off by Moody. There's a short conversation in Moody/Crouch's office, which ends with Crouch raising his wand for Avada Kadavera. I'd say, the estimated time would be maybe 15 minutes between Harry returning and Crouch raising his wand. (DD said "The moment he took you, I knew- and I followed." pg. 680) But, before DD, McG, and Snape burst through the door, their shapes appear in the Foe Glass, and Harry notices as Crouch is describing the second task. Which means that there'd be more like 11 or 13 minutes (to be precise) between Harry arriving and Snape having to be at Hogwarts.

Now, I'd assume that for Snape's image to appear in the Foe Glass he must be at Hogwarts, because he'd know about Moody/Crouch, and he was "getting closer". IF Snape was at the DE meeting, he would have had to disappear from the tournament and leave the grounds (which sounds like a considerable distance to go) without anyone noticing, and then he'd have to dissapperate. There was very little time in between LV summoning them, and the DEs appearing at his side, all at the same time. It's doubtful Snape could have made it off the grounds, w/ his DE robes, in the same amount of time it took Lucius Malfoy, who did not have to sprint a considerable distance.

Then, providing Snape somehow managed to appear for the rebirthing party- why didn't he help Harry? I know it would probablly be his death, but he's working with DD, and by the looks of it, LV would kill the one person who could bring the Dark Lord down... Wouldn't that justify Snape's actions? Okay, considering that Snape knew about Prioir Incatem (which is possible), and didn't help Harry, how did he get back in time? He has fifteen minutes in which to convince a very angry Dark Lord that he must go back, probablly expecting a few Crucios as well. (Unless he didn't ask.... Which would possibly mean death to Snape in the future.) Then he has to apperate off Hogwarts grounds, change out of the creepy robes, rush to the stadium to find DD, and join him in stupifying Crouch. There is no mention of Snape being out of breath, or anything (not that I can imagine Snape running anywhere).

If Snape really, really hurried, it's possible that he could have pulled it off- but I'd say it's doubtful. The only way it'd be possible is if off grounds was 5 minutes away, or less. But, since we don't know how far away off grounds is, perhaps we'll never know. Sorry that got so long, just trying to see if we could figure something out once and for all. Guess it didn't really work, though.


Solitaire - Sep 1, 2004 9:11 pm (#2306 of 2956)
Siriusly, I read somewhere the suggestion that Snape was related to Lily ... Perseus Evans=Severus Snape. This was back when some thought Mark Evans might turn out to be Snape's long-lost son and the HBP.

I thought that the name Severus could mean a couple of things ... sever us, might indicate a break with Lily--a "severing"--if indeed they were related.


Weeny Owl - Sep 1, 2004 9:21 pm (#2307 of 2956)
I always thought the timeline was quite a bit more. Harry was lying on the ground for a few minutes, and it takes about ten minutes or more to get from the Quidditch pitch to Crouch, Jr.'s office. I would see that as at least fifteen to twenty minutes before the conversation began. Add another ten to fifteen minutes for the conversation, and you have between twenty-five and thirty-five minutes.

Even if the time frame is much shorter, there's always the possibility of him using a Time Turner.

I don't think Snape was at the rebirthing, but I do agree that it's possible.


Solitaire - Sep 1, 2004 9:46 pm (#2308 of 2956)
The truth is that if Voldemort truly believes him to be a genuine DE and wants to preserve his cover, Snape could have disapparated from the graveyard during the hubbub when Harry made a run for the portkey, arrived just outside Hogwarts grounds, and rushed back in during all the commotion. (There were surely thousands of people milling around.) For that matter, so could Fudge.

The hard part to explain is why Snape doesn't show his colors one way or the other: either help Harry (and be instantly AK'd by LV) or do as the other DEs are doing. As far as I am concerned, that is where the theory really falls apart.

Solitaire


LooneyLuna - Sep 2, 2004 6:38 am (#2309 of 2956)
Well, if Snape used a time turner (when DD asked him if he was ready), he wouldn't have to run - his second self would only have to avoid being scene. Therefore, he could literally be in two places at once.


TomProffitt - Sep 2, 2004 7:51 am (#2310 of 2956)
When Jo has used devices such as Polyjuice Potion or Time Turners she has made certain that clues are given.

In the case of Hermione and the Time Turner there many instances where Harry and Ron were curious as to how she was getting to all of her classes. Or there were instances when Hermione wasn't there when they turned around or was in a different place than expected.

In the case of Barty and the Polyjuice Potion we were allowed to hear of the assault on Moody. We saw Barty drinking constantly from his hip flask. There was the odd reaction to hearing that "Mr. Crouch" had been in Professor Snape's office.

Jo has not left us any clues to suggest Severus had a Time Turner or that he was at the Graveyard. Absence of evidence, is of course, not evidence of absence, but it certainly doesn't fit with Jo's writing style.


The One - Sep 2, 2004 8:06 am (#2311 of 2956)
There was the odd reaction to hearing that "Mr. Crouch" had been in Professor Snape's office.

We are even told by Snape that polyjuice ingredients are stolen from his office but Harry assumes it refers to Hermione stealing it in CoS.

We also see in PoA that sneakoscopes triggers all the time for good reasons, while it is always explained by trivial things. And in GoF Moody has disabled his sneakoscopes because ?students all over the place are lying about why they have not done their homework."

When something fishy is going on there often are lot of clues. But I do not see that kinds of clues for Snape.


Weeny Owl - Sep 2, 2004 8:13 am (#2312 of 2956)
Jo has not left us any clues to suggest Severus had a Time Turner or that he was at the Graveyard. Absence of evidence, is of course, not evidence of absence, but it certainly doesn't fit with Jo's writing style.

I definitely agree with that.

I've never taken the Time Turner theory seriously, but won't completely discount it until JKR fully explains who was who and what was what that night.

I do agree that the most telling bit of evidence for him not to have been there is the hospital wing scene when Dumbledore sends him on a mission.


Siriusly - Sep 2, 2004 12:38 pm (#2313 of 2956)
Did you notice though in GOF when Harry gives Dobby socks for Christmas and pulls out his sneakscope, it does not go off. If students are lying everywhere shouldn'e Harry's sneakscope being going off also.


Fawkes Egg - Sep 2, 2004 1:50 pm (#2314 of 2956)
It's just a Pocket Sneakoscope though, maybe its range is limited. Moody/Crouch Jr.'s were full size ones. Besides, Harry only told Dobby that he forgot to wrap the socks he was giving him which strictly speaking was not a lie. He just didn't mention the fact that he'd forgotten to get Dobby a present. Again, this may be a limitation of the Pocket version: can spot HUGE whoppers like Pettigrew pretending to be a nondescript rat with no ill intentions, but not Harry's little white lie.

On the topic of Snape, if LV still trusts him, how did Snape explain saving Harry from falling off his broom in PS, when LV tried to make him fall off it through Quirrel?


Weeny Owl - Sep 2, 2004 2:06 pm (#2315 of 2956)
On the topic of Snape, if LV still trusts him, how did Snape explain saving Harry from falling off his broom in PS, when LV tried to make him fall off it through Quirrel?

He could simply say that the Headmaster gave him an order to make sure that no one on either Quidditch team was harmed, and that even if Harry were to fall off his broom it wouldn't necessarily mean he would die. Plus, if anyone had been seriously hurt, perhaps Dumbledore would call in Aurors or something similar and Snape might have had to tell them that he was really a Voldemort supporter and would have ended up in Azkaban instead of being able to spy on Dumbledore.

I'm sure Snape could find a lot of explanations to cover himself.


hellocello3200 - Sep 2, 2004 5:16 pm (#2316 of 2956)
Siriusly, I think the reason that Moody's scope would go off and Harry's dosen't is that Crouch Jr was lying the whole time he was there. Crouch Jr probably just lied to cover himself.I'm not 100% sure on this because I lent my copy of GoF to a neighbor.


Solitaire - Sep 2, 2004 11:16 pm (#2317 of 2956)
Harry's pocket Sneakoscope DID go off a lot in PoA. That's why he stuffed it into Uncle Vernon's disgusting old socks and shoved it down into his trunk. Ron said that it had gone off at dinner when they were in Egypt, and he told Harry that Bill had told him it was unreliable--however, that was before Bill discovered that Fred and George had put beetles into his soup.

In PoA, I think we can assume that the reason it kept going off was Scabbers. It knew he was Peter--and untrustworthy!! That might also have been the reason it went off in Egypt, come to think of it. Ron was never w/o Scabbers.

Solitaire


lobelia - Sep 3, 2004 6:31 am (#2318 of 2956)
Fred and George were putting flies in Percy's soup in Egypt.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 3, 2004 7:03 am (#2319 of 2956)
"Harry -- this is a Pocket Sneakoscope. If there's someone untrustworthy around, it's supposed to light up and spin. Bill says it's rubbish sold for wizard tourists and isn't reliable, because it kept lighting up at dinner last night. But he didn't realize Fred and George had put beetles in his soup." pp 9 POA US


The One - Sep 3, 2004 7:13 am (#2320 of 2956)
Fred and George were putting flies in Percy's soup in Egypt.

That is true, but Scabbers are probably there. Later it triggers when he use Errol to send it to Harry, and thinks it is because he was not supposed to use Errol, but he probably had Scabbers in his pocket.

The hole point is that the sneakoscopes fires all the time, and it is never to be explained by school kid pranks or minor offences; there it is always a really serious reason behind it. This is the pattern throughout the PoA. Thus, when Moody tells us that he had to disable his sneakoscopes because of kids lying about homework we should have thought: "Really? Is this true? It does not tally with former experience with the sneakoscope!" But I guess hardly anyone thought so. At least, I did not. Not even on the re-read. But on the second (or was it third?) re-read i noticed. And then only because I had read some post on the net discussing the events mentioned here from PoA.


rambkowalczyk - Sep 3, 2004 6:16 pm (#2321 of 2956)
TomProffitt, good point about lack of clues regarding whether or not Snape used a time turner to go to Voldemort's rebirth.

But I don't think JKR necessarily uses much foreshadowing (for lack of a better term) from book to book. For instance no where in book one or two did Scabbers act any different than a normal rat would. If Snape used a time turner those clues will appear in book 6 or 7.

Since reading Maline's article (The pensieve essays North Tower Mugglenet), I've gone with the idea that Snape was at the graveyard. She makes good arguments who she thinks the betrayer and the coward are that she had to reconsider her previous theory that Fudge was a deatheater. (I forget whether he was considered the coward or the betrayer).

If Snape didn't use the time turner then there are only 4 possibilities left. 1 He is the betrayer and Voldemort is biding his time. 2 He is the coward and has already been punished. or 3 He was at the rebirthing and did nothing to save Harry's life. 4 No other deatheater knows Snape works for Voldemort. Voldemort didn't expect him to come because he knew he was at Hogwarts and just didn't comment on his absence.(I consider this the least likely)

I think possibility 2 and 3 are tied in second place, possibility 1 for third place.


tracie1976 - Sep 3, 2004 6:31 pm (#2322 of 2956)
Sorry to change subject or if this was already brought up but I'd thought I'd share any way.

While watching CoS, I came up with this. Dobby says "History will repeat itself" What if he meant more than just the Chamber being opened?

We have the four founders of Hogwarts and then the four Heads of Houses at the time when the Chamber was opened. Notice that Snape has the same initials as Salazar Slytherin. Snape is also the Head of House of Slytherin. Now we all know Slytherin left Hogwarts...do you think Snape will do the same? Snape has already followed Voldie once or has he never stopped?

Personally, I think Snape is still working for Voldie or will be soon and will leave Hogwarts behind.


Siriusly - Sep 3, 2004 6:32 pm (#2323 of 2956)
I may be wrong about his, but haven't all the people that told us that Snape was trying to save Harry been the bad guys. If Snape was on thier team, playing double agent, would they really tell us otherwise?

I haven't checked canon on this just wondered.


T Brightwater - Sep 3, 2004 6:40 pm (#2324 of 2956)
Dumbledore says (in PS/SS ch. 17) "I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even."


Solitaire - Sep 3, 2004 7:11 pm (#2325 of 2956)
rambkowalczyk, if Voldemort thinks Snape is a spy FOR the DEs who is strategically placed at Hogwarts, it makes perfect sense NOT to call attention to him. Remember that Barty and Karkaroff both say that none of the DEs knew ALL of the other DEs. I think Voldemort likes it that way. It keeps him in ultimate control.

If Snape is truly the former DE who has left Voldemort forever and is spying for Dumbledore and the Order--and Voldemort knows this--he is biding his time to punish him. He may still need Snape for something before he punishes (kills) him. We have seen that, while Voldemort may not like to wait, he can if the "prize" is worth it.

As for no clues about Scabbers ... well, we know that Scabbers is MUCH older than the normal age for even a very old rat. He has been with the Weasleys since Percy was small. I don't think anyone ever thought to question his age.

I don't know if Crookshanks' behavior would have been a clue or not. Do we actually learn he is a Kneazle in PoA? It's been a long week and I can't remember. Either way, we know that Scabbers never has had problems with Mrs. Norris, and she is the biggest, nosiest tattletale at Hogwarts. Why does he suddenly have so much trouble with Crookshanks? In hindsight, we realize that we have missed several clues to the fact of Scabbers as a traitor--the Sneakoscope, the missing finger (okay, we didn't know the animagus thing), Crookshanks--because they were all "explainable" by other factors.

We probably weren't exercising "constant vigilance."

Solitaire


Ann - Sep 3, 2004 7:15 pm (#2326 of 2956)
In reference to the idea that Snape went back in time to attend the meeting of the DEs at Voldemort's rebirthday party, I agree with Tom Proffitt's point about the lack of clues. rambkowalczyk said "For instance no where in book one or two did Scabbers act any different than a normal rat would." But he did, actually: the first thing Ron does is do a spell to "turn this fat rat yellow." That it doesn't work is our first suggestion that he's not actually a fat rat. And one would expect evidence of the use of a time turner to show up at the time it's used, that is, in book 4.

rambkowalczyk, you also concludes that if Snape is the traitor (and I think he is) Voldemort is biding his time; but you overlook the possibility that Snape was able to explain himself and work his way (probably provisionally) into Voldemort's good graces. They are such a bunch of bumblers, Voldemort included, that Voldemort would be nuts not to give such an intelligent and well-placed DE a chance.

<Edit: Solitaire, we are thinking and posting alike again!>


Emiko - Sep 3, 2004 7:28 pm (#2327 of 2956)
Okay, speaking of his loyalty, I know this has been brought up before, but never with an answer I've thought fully plausible. Why does Snape call LV the Dark Lord? All the DEs call him that, to his face. But, Crouch Jr. calls him Voldemort, and not when he's trying to keep his cover, but when he gives Harry a potion to drink up in his office after the maze. Thus, I don't think it's a requirement for the DEs to call LV the Dark Lord.

And, besides, certainly it'd be more in keeping with his cover as a "good wizard", in LVs eyes, if he didn't call him the Dark Lord. I just think that there's more in that small fact, perhaps about Snape's psychological state, etc. than meets the eye.

Also, if the quote T Brightwater is indeed true, then shouldn't the life debt to James have been paid? So, there shouldn't be a "bond" between Harry and Snape anymore. Right?


T Brightwater - Sep 3, 2004 8:01 pm (#2328 of 2956)
I've been wondering all along if there is some reason beyond simple nervousness for not saying Voldemort's name. Otherwise, why would Snape tell Harry not to say it? He doesn't seem like the superstitious type. Does it somehow draw Voldemort's attention - or do people think it does?


Siriusly - Sep 3, 2004 8:09 pm (#2329 of 2956)
What's that old line.... Beetleguise, Beetleguise, Beetleguise.


Solitaire - Sep 3, 2004 8:11 pm (#2330 of 2956)
LOL Ann! And at almost the same time! I guess we were sending those "vibes" around in cyberspace!

Emiko, about the Dark Lord business ... I agree that it is kind of creepy for Snape to call him that if he has truly renounced Voldemort. It almost sounds like a kind of "back-handed" respect that he doesn't deserve.

That said ... not only are old habits are hard to break, but Snape--having been in the "inner circle" of DEs--knows what Voldemort is capable of doing. Perhaps the DEs feared saying his name might invoke Voldemort's presence. Snape also bears the Dark Mark, and it wouldn't surprise me if it hs been "needling" him in its own way as much as Harry's scar has been bothering him. We know that Karkaroff's Mark was getting darker and clearer in the months immediately before Voldemort's rebirth.

I've often wondered ... Harry has the violent dreams and "visions" when Voldemort is angry, happy, etc. Do the DEs get any "twinges" in the mark during those times?

Solitaire


EbonyRebel - Sep 4, 2004 9:54 am (#2331 of 2956)
Solitare, i think it's possible that they do get twinges - i remember when harry insisted on saying Voldemort's name, and Snape told him not to, Snape "rubbed his left fore-arm almost unconsciously". of course, this could just be psychological too, as Emiko said. i think the fact that Snape calls him the "Dark Lord" is both keeping his undercover act but also, and more so, IMO, Snape's fear. i seem to remember Rowling saying in an interview that Snape, having been a DE,"will have seen things that...". it must have been horrible. think of nevilles parents, for example. As for earlier speculation, i think that Snape was in that circle of DE's - the "next man" beside Lucius, to be exact. i think that Bagman is the coward, and that Karkaroff the traitor - as it is pretty common knowledge that he gave a load of DE names to the ministry. we haven't heard of bagman all through the fifth book, and as he is such a well-known figure in the wizarding world, i think it's safe to assume he went into hiding. while I'm certain that Snape was in the DE circle at V's rebirth,(it would be too difficult for snape to act as a DE if V is convinced he's a traitor or a coward), i must admit that this makes me think about what DD wished Snape "good luck" with. from this, i would suggest that there is a lot more to Snape's work for the order than being an ordinary DE - i think he's right in Voldemort's inner circle. this would explain his close friendship with Lucius. i suggest that Snape went to get private, important orders from Voldemort personally. in that case, he would have to be prepared to practice not only occlumency but a general air of innocence, so that Voldemort will get no "stench of guilt"! OK, i know this is more like an essay than a post - apologies!


EbonyRebel - Sep 4, 2004 9:57 am (#2332 of 2956)
just thought of something else - the fact that there has been no sign of bagman is extremely suspicious - bagman didn't go into hiding when the goblin's and even the weasley twins were after him during GoF. IMO it's too much of a coincidence that he disappeared immediately after the third task. he felt that mark burn!


popkin - Sep 4, 2004 10:07 am (#2333 of 2956)
If Snape had used the timeturner to go back to the meeting in the graveyard, he would not have had any reason to help Harry. Since Snape had witnessed Harry returning from the graveyard before he went back to join the circle, he would already know the outcome of the encounter - that Harry survives. He would only have to stay out of the way.

Also, LV would have passed over Snape because he would not want the other DEs to know that he had a man planted at Hogwarts. The other DEs who were passed over were probably also placed in positions of power, or were celebrities. LV would not want to jeopardize their respectability.


EbonyRebel - Sep 4, 2004 10:22 am (#2334 of 2956)
hmm, good point about the timeturner, and snape not having to save harry. however, the fact that voldemort would pass over DE's because they're celebrities or in positions of power doesn't hold, as Lucius Malfoy is an example of both, and voldemort speaks to him directly, calling him by name loudly enough for everyone to hear (harry hears way over by the grave stone).


Siriusly - Sep 4, 2004 10:26 am (#2335 of 2956)
Maybe the only names he uses are the DE's that are in charge of directing the others. They would all have to know a few of them, Malfoy in charge of muggle-torture would be directing many people, like a bishop, sorry that's another thread.


Solitaire - Sep 4, 2004 11:39 am (#2336 of 2956)
LV would have passed over Snape because he would not want the other DEs to know that he had a man planted at Hogwarts. The other DEs who were passed over were probably also placed in positions of power, or were celebrities. LV would not want to jeopardize their respectability.

Popkin, sometimes I have thought this and sometimes I don't know what to think. I've always wondered why some DEs were named that night in the cemetery and others were not. Since everyone there--except Harry and Voldemort himself--WAS a DE, naming them wouldn't really have compromised anyone's respectability, would it? After all, Voldemort's plan was to kill Harry, so what would it matter if he heard who was a DE before he died? He couldn't have known Harry would escape once again ... could he?

Solitaire

(edited for clarity)

hellocello3200 - Sep 4, 2004 12:10 pm (#2337 of 2956)
Maybe LV didn't name all the DE present it to prevent anyone who sang under pressure to get out of punishmet when captured from revealing those in important places. For instance, if Snape is working for LV at Hogwarts and a capture death eater named him as a DE, then LV would lose the advantage he had by having someone there.


Loony Loopy Larissa - Sep 4, 2004 12:56 pm (#2338 of 2956)
That is exactly my reasoning, hellocello; though, he did seem to name his most powerful Death Eaters. That seems a little like poor planning to me. If someone is going to squeal, those who were named would be the biggest loss, especially Lucius.


hellocello3200 - Sep 4, 2004 1:46 pm (#2339 of 2956)
Maybe people like Lucius appear to be the most important DE to the readers because they are prominate in the books as death eaters but they are really secondary to DE that haven't been named as such.


timrew - Sep 4, 2004 1:46 pm (#2340 of 2956)
I think Snape refers to Voldemort as, "The Dark Lord", purely to keep himself in the role of loyal Death Eater. We know that Voldemort is proficient at Occlumency and Legilimency and would spot it at once if Snape let his guard down accidentally, and was caught thinking of, "Me old mate, Voldie", or, "The Dork Lard".

This is also why Moody/Crouch refers to him as "Voldemort". He cannot refer to him as , "The Dark Lord", because that is something that old Mad Eye would never do.


popkin - Sep 4, 2004 2:35 pm (#2341 of 2956)
Tim, if Snape is really a good man, then that just about has to be why he uses that name. Actually, no matter what his future plans are, if he wants to stay alive to achieve them, then he must be very careful about never letting his guard down.

I sometimes wonder how the man can do anything at all. Whether he's trying to fool Dumbledore (an excellent legilimens), or Voldemort (same), or play both sides against each other, how can he make any plans? It seems like there's always someone around who can look inside his brain. What will he do when Harry can get in there any time he wants to, too?


hellocello3200 - Sep 4, 2004 4:16 pm (#2342 of 2956)
I agree with Popkin that Snape is on thin ice wether he is loyal to DD or not. I doubt that Snape would be playing both sides against each other becaus ethat would greatly increae his danger. He has Crucio and Avada Kadavra to worry about if the DE get wise to him, and Azkaban if DD catches on. Snape isn't stupid. It's one or the other.

If you want to decide what side he is on, it is helpful to look at the pros and cons of both sides. For joining LV, he might really like muggle-torture, and he might really want to get Harry and possibly there is material gains to be had fom being a DE but this hasn't been mentioned. The downsides of being a DE are that he is might end up dead from LV if he messes up and he might get put in Azkaban and lose the respect of DD. (He may not care what DD thinks, but I think he does) For being a loyal member of the Order, there is the respect he will get from the wizarding war when it is all over and LV is defeated. (We know he would like an Order of Merlin) He also is redeemed in the eyes of DD. The bad points of being an Order member are that he is in danger from the DE and has to protect and teach Harry.


popkin - Sep 4, 2004 4:47 pm (#2343 of 2956)
Edited by Sep 4, 2004 5:47 pm
No matter what he does, he is not appreciated. That is why I sometimes think he may be biding his time waiting to take over after either Dumbledore or LV fall. But, if this is what he is waiting for, why wouldn't he have done it when LV became a mist? Maybe he didn't want to have to deal with the ultimate return of the Dark Lord.


Solitaire - Sep 4, 2004 7:44 pm (#2344 of 2956)
Do you really think Snape wants (or ever wanted) power? I've mulled this over before, and come up with some different reasons why people might have joined Voldemort's original forces.

1 -- They genuinely believed in the original premise of Salazar Slytherin, that magic should be kept in pure-blood wizarding families. Here we obviously find people like Malfoy and Regulus Black ... and perhaps Snape. But as much as they believed in the pure-blood idea, some were not prepared to kill for it.

2 -- Some might have desired power. While I think this might have been a strong lure for some of the original followers, it probably became rapidly apparent that LV wanted the power for himself. Anyone who was too interested in his own power would probably have become a liability and would have been "dealt with."

3 -- There might have been many who craved prestige and the respect of people who had always denied it to them. They may not have wanted power per se, but aligning themselves with a powerful wizard like LV would have given them some "reflected power" and perhaps that respect or deference they craved. I kind of tend to put Snape in this camp at the moment. (it could change)

4 -- Many probably joined Voldemort unwillingly, I am sure. They may have done it to preserve their own skins. They were too cowardly to resist him, and they might have hoped to just keep a low profile and be left alone, not required to do any killing or anything terrible or "important."

The way Peter talked, this may have been the reason he defected originally. But he had too many powerful friends (in the Order) to just hang out quietly in the shadows. Voldemort would have wanted some show of loyalty, such as handing over the Potters. I doubt Peter betrayed them out of hatred (just guessing); it was probably out of cowardice. And when his part in things was discovered in PoA, he had no where to go but back to Voldemort. Then he discovered that there would be retribution.

Going back to Snape ... I can see him joining DEs partly because he believes in the pure-blood cause ... but also because he would like to see people who've looked down at their noses at him all their lives (James and Sirius) treat him with the respect he believes he deserves.

In the beginning, perhaps the DE activities were confined to mild persecution of Muggles and Muggle-borns. Later, however--when Snape began to realize the violent lengths to which Voldemort was prepared to go to assume total power--he decided that neither respect nor prejudice was a good enough reason to kill people.

I have often wondered, too, whether Snape might not have uncovered a plan by Voldemort to kill Dumbledore--or might have been asked to kill Dumbledore himself. Since Dumbledore had probably always treated Snape fairly--I am assuming here, but it seems a fair assumption--Snape might have been horrified. This would have provided a reason to defect, and it would certainly have earned Dumbledore's trust. In return, Dumbledore could have offered Snape sanctuary and a means of livelihood. This could account for the bond of trust between them. Just a lot of speculation, of course ...

Solitaire


hellocello3200 - Sep 5, 2004 7:09 am (#2345 of 2956)
I agree with Solitare. I have often thought that DD gave Snape the reason and courage to redeem himself. I think that Snape would have looked up to DD when he was young (A bit like Harry). I would guess that DD would be kind to Snape while he seems to be generally disliked by the student body. I think I mentioned awhile back that Snape was probably like Regulus Black and was drawn to LV in the beginning but then balked at the killing of innocents. I think DD might have let Snape know he knew what he was doing and it disapointed him. I think DD would be a hard person to look in the eye if you had done something wrong because he is so kind to everyone.


Loony Loopy Larissa - Sep 5, 2004 7:44 am (#2346 of 2956)
Solitaire, I had a good laugh at your "preserve their own skins." I just wanted to mention that.


Elanor - Sep 5, 2004 7:57 am (#2347 of 2956)
I agree with you too Solitaire : you did a great work here!

Concerning the "was Snape in the graveyard?" question, well I doubt he was. In the "Occlumency lessons" chapter, when Harry remembers the death of Cedric, Snape says :"Get up! said Snape sharply. 'Get up! You are not trying, you are making no effort. You are allowing me access to memories you fear, handing me weapons!' [...] Snape looked paler than usual, and angrier, though not nearly as angry as Harry was."

When I read this paragraph, I think that, here again, Snape tells things to Harry that could apply to himself, that is to say that these are memories that Snape fears too and don't want to see. But, if he has been in the graveyard, would those memories affect him like that? He would have seen Cedric's body then, wouldn't he? The fact that he became paler and angry suggests to me that he didn't see Cedric and that he was afraid to see something like that in Harry's memories. Is it possible that this memory reminds him of other murders and of what Voldemort is capable of doing? I believe it could be and also that, in that scene, Snape is more angry with himself than with Harry because these memories affect him too and he doesn't like that.


Solitaire - Sep 5, 2004 8:32 am (#2348 of 2956)
Thanks, Elanor. And good call, too, on the suggestion about Harry's memories triggering similar frightening memories in Snape.

Larissa, it just struck me that Peter was probably more interested in saving his own skin--a common idiom for selfishly thinking of his own welfare--than in anything else. In PoA, when Sirius and Remus are questioning him, he says things like "What was there to be gained by refusing him?" and "You don't understand! He would have killed me, Sirius!" He was a coward.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Sep 5, 2004 11:00 am (#2349 of 2956)
Solitaire, good analysis, but I think you left out one category - those who were fully behind Voldemort and agreed with his methods as well as his purpose. I'd put Bellatrix and Crouch Jr. in this category at least.


Solitaire - Sep 5, 2004 12:25 pm (#2350 of 2956)
Of course you are correct, Brightwater! I totally forgot that one! Thanks.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 5, 2004 1:25 pm (#2351 of 2956)
Solitaire you should copy or link your analysis to the Death Eaters thread it is most fascinating.

Cheers, Nathan


Loony Loopy Larissa - Sep 5, 2004 2:20 pm (#2352 of 2956)
Solitaire, perhaps I should have been more clear. The word preserve as opposed to save was the thing that amused me. I quite agree with the reason you think Wormtail betrayed Lily and James.


Solitaire - Sep 5, 2004 6:19 pm (#2353 of 2956)
Ah, okay, Larissa! Actually, I later looked back at my own post and realized I'd said preserved instead of saved! LOL I guess some days are like that! Smile

Nathan, thank you for the compliment, but are you sure it really belongs there? It seems more specific to Snape. I'll look at it and see if I can just take the part that fits the DE thread ... plus Brightwater's additional category.

Solitaire

Edit: Okay, Nathan. I've posted it on the DE thread, with T Brightwater's category included and credited. Thanks for the suggestion.


Emiko - Sep 5, 2004 8:19 pm (#2354 of 2956)
Awesome connection, Elanor!

And to the idea that Snape was to kill DD, if two aurors couldn't bring him down, how could Snape? Yeah, he's good, but DD also defeated LV in the fountain/fight scene. Certainly LV would want to kill DD himself?

But, in a similar idea, what if Snape was required to kill someone else he knew from Hogwarts... either a teacher, or MPP? (leaving out wormtail since he defected) He obviously refused, if he was ordered. And DD would know that.


rosi reef - Sep 6, 2004 2:31 am (#2355 of 2956)
Solitaire: Going back to Snape ... I can see him joining DEs partly because he believes in the pure-blood cause ... but also because he would like to see people who've looked down at their noses at him all their lives (James and Sirius) treat him with the respect he believes he deserves. In the beginning, perhaps the DE activities were confined to mild persecution of Muggles and Muggle-borns. Later, however--when Snape began to realize the violent lengths to which Voldemort was prepared to go to assume total power--he decided that neither respect nor prejudice was a good enough reason to kill people.

But if Snape joined Voldemort after he left Hogwarts (I don't think students would have been taken seriously by the other DEs.) than Voldemorts reign of terror was already going on for seven years. Snape must have clearly known whom he was going to serve.


EbonyRebel - Sep 6, 2004 3:25 am (#2356 of 2956)
agree popkin - i think that Snape likes to do the thing properly, so to speak. he is a perfectionist, after all. for myself, i have no doubt that Snape is ultimately good, even if it is just to believe that we can all be saved from past mistakes! bearing in mind that these are children's books, i think it would be a good lesson for children - just because someone is disagreeable, doesn't mean that they're evil. it's a good lesson for adults too! Snape can never let his guard down or his mask slip('scuse the pun) - he must be in control at all times. this is easy to see in his potions lessons. i don't think legilimency ever came into DD's reasons for trusting Snape; he was bound to know that Snape is an Occlumens - it's just faith on DD's part. his faith in people so far has never proved wrong. i hope it'll be the same for Snape.


EbonyRebel - Sep 6, 2004 3:38 am (#2357 of 2956)
rosi and i posted at the same time. *Hi rosi!* about snape joining the DE's after he came out from Hogwarts - i think he'd only have a watered down idea of Voldemort's true colours - it's always been said that Hogwarts was the only safe place, and being a place for children, i'm sure the adults wouldn't have given them gory details of any atrocities. the children would have spent most of the year there, and in view of the war, i think it's possible that parents would have arranged for them to stay the summer as well. Snape's parents didnt' seem to love him much, so maybe they shunted him out of the way that way? by the time he did leave school, he probably joined more or less immediately - all his friends were probably telling him how cool it was - and then he'd have about a year or so to get a real taste of it (Voldemort more than likely didnt trust him with much in the beginning, so he probably only got a good idea later on) and decide that he hated it! the rest of the time he spent with the DE's was possibly spent in figuring how he was going to get out. i think he does believe, to a certain extent, in pure-blood superiority, but i don't think he ever joined the DE's to satisfy a blood-lust.


hellocello3200 - Sep 6, 2004 8:15 am (#2358 of 2956)
About the idea that Snape had to kill DD: I think it is pretty clear that he couldn't do it on his own but he might have been told to bretray him and he couldn't do that to someone who had always been kind to him and everyone else. It is also possible that he warned DD or helped escape some kind of danger for the same reasons.


Solitaire - Sep 6, 2004 9:41 am (#2359 of 2956)
I think Ebony is probably correct that the students at Hogwarts probably would not have known the full extent of Voldemort's plans immediately upon joining his supporters.

Assuming that Snape pulled out of the DEs around age 20--that would have been about a year before James and Lily died, which tallies with Dumbledore's statements--he would have had about 2 years to move through the ranks of general supporters and into the "inner circle." I would assume that only the inner core (those we see and hear about in the graveyard and in the Pensieve scenes) really knew the true direction in which they were headed. Sirius's comments about his brother getting cold feet when he realized where things were headed would seem to confirm this.

Isn't it possible that the widespread violence only began to escalate shortly before Snape withdrew?

Solitaire


Leila 2X4B - Sep 6, 2004 12:50 pm (#2360 of 2956)
Ebonyrebel, please use capitalization because we all need to be able to understand your post and it needs to be easier to read. If you use a lowercase "i" to begin your post, the rest will be in italics.

Leila


rambkowalczyk - Sep 6, 2004 4:39 pm (#2361 of 2956)
I agree with Solitaire that one reason that Snape may have joined Voldemort may have been due to reflected glory. Maybe Voldemort gave him recognition that his parents denied him. For instance Snape may have been helping Voldemort in his pursuit of immortality. As to why Snape betrayed Voldemort I don't think it was just Voldemort's disregard for life or his going to far. If Snape was never asked to kill he may not have cared if other deatheaters killed. He may not have liked it and knew it was wrong but he could have argued to himself that there was nothing he could have done.

I don't think Voldemort asked Snape to kill Dumbledore although if he did that could be a reason for Snape to betray Voldemort. Dumbledore is still alive so Snape obviously didn't succeed. How was this explained to the Dark Lord?

What is needed is a compelling reason for Snape to betray Voldemort. Something that would make him have to act because to do nothing would be a disaster for Snape. I just think something is missing and we haven't figured it out yet.


Solitaire - Sep 6, 2004 5:11 pm (#2362 of 2956)
I just think something is missing and we haven't figured it out yet.

I certainly agree here! We can draw conclusions based on evidence we have and on probabilities we may suspect ... and some of them may even turn out to be right. The truth, however, is that we really will not know until we are told exactly what happened and why.

Snape's potential backstory is riveting, because he appears to be a double agent, balancing on a tightrope that seems almost impossible to walk, given what we know of the various players on either side.

Solitaire


TomProffitt - Sep 6, 2004 5:29 pm (#2363 of 2956)
Severus Snape is a cruel and hateful person with an unwavering loyalty to Albus Dumbledore.

Perhaps instead of asking "What was Snape supposed to do?" we should be asking "What did Dumbledore do?"

(Soli, what's the proper grammatical structure for that last sentence? I'm completely befuddled.)


Solitaire - Sep 6, 2004 5:48 pm (#2364 of 2956)
It looks okay to me, Tom ... but I'm looking through a haze of decongestants, antihistamines, and Advil. Perhaps a comma ... after Perhaps.


TomProffitt - Sep 6, 2004 5:49 pm (#2365 of 2956)
I just thought it was a run-on. I thought I needed to capitalize the "we."


Solitaire - Sep 6, 2004 5:56 pm (#2366 of 2956)
No, it isn't a run-on, and we doesn't need to be capitalized.


T Brightwater - Sep 7, 2004 5:05 am (#2367 of 2956)
Grammar aside, Tom, that's an interesting question. Dealing with centaurs, merpeople and giants takes a fair amount of diplomacy, but I can't imagine what it would take to engage Snape's loyalty, especially for someone who is a known friend of James Potter.

(By the way, if you want a very good and hilarious guide to punctuation, I recommend Lynn Truss's _Eats, Shoots & Leaves_.)


popkin - Sep 7, 2004 7:46 am (#2368 of 2956)
At least one reason that Snape betrayed Voldemort to Dumbledore was probably that he owed a life-debt to James and he found out that James life was in danger. Why (or even if) he remained loyal to Dumbledore after that is up for debate. Since James died and Voldemort became a mist, the life-debt was not repaid and there was no Dark Lord to return to. I wonder what Snape would have done if either James had lived or if Voldemort had been successful in killing Harry. If he had been released from his debt, would he have done anything differently? If Voldemort had become indestructable would Snape have joined him or died fighting him?


madame hooch - Sep 7, 2004 8:59 am (#2369 of 2956)
Not to change the subject or anything but has anyone looked at the newly chozen fansite Mugglenet?There is an editorial someone wrote on the missing deatheater (posted in the North Tower).The theory is relly very good.She gives her theory on who the missing deatheater is who Voldemort said he believed has left him forever and will die.And no its not Snape.She believes Snape to be among the passed over deatheaters at the rebirthing.Anyway I thought this was a very interesting theory and wanted to share it with you.


phoenix fire - Sep 7, 2004 12:04 pm (#2370 of 2956)
Hi, I have a Snape question. I'm sure it's been discussed here before, as I've seen mention of it in other threads, but I can't read all 2,000 previous posts about Snape! Is/was Snape married? How do we know this and what do we know about the wife?


septentrion - Sep 7, 2004 12:12 pm (#2371 of 2956)
Snape's wife is Gina, one of the forum's members.

If we stuck to cannon, we don't know anything about the private life of the teachers and JKR refused to answer a question about the teachers' spouses once.


rambkowalczyk - Sep 7, 2004 12:28 pm (#2372 of 2956)
There seems to be no evidence that Snape or any other teacher have a lovelife. JKR was asked if any of the teachers have spouses. Her answer was along the lines that this was restricted information. My guess is definately not now. Snape, Flitwick, McGonnagall, Trelawney, Dumbledore,and Hagrid have been to Christmas dinners without spouses in the books which would indicate none of them are married now. Vector, Sinistra, and whoever teaches Muggle studies, and Arithmancy are never at the Christmas dinners. Maybe these teachers are married.

Some people have speculated a relationship with Professer Sinistra, mainly because her name sounds Slytherinish. Some have thought it was Snape kissing Florence in Dumbledore's pensieve scene. JKR seems to avoid the question by asking who could love him? or something like that.

My guess is that if there was a girl in his life, it would have happened before he became a deatheater. I like to think there is something noble in him that would avoid a relationship now because it would only put the woman in question in danger from Lord Voldemort. Or maybe that's the way he rationalizes being single. Being in a relationship requires a willingness to be hurt and I think he wouldn't take that risk.


Weeny Owl - Sep 7, 2004 12:32 pm (#2373 of 2956)
Snape's wife is Gina, one of the forum's members.

Yes, she is! Gina also strenously disagrees with JKR who said something in an interview about how it would be a horrible idea for anyone to want Snape in love with them.

I would take that to mean that Snape isn't now married and has never been married.


Padfoot - Sep 7, 2004 1:20 pm (#2374 of 2956)
Where is Gina? Haven't see her around in a while.

I do not think Snape was ever married either. It would be nice to see him fall in love, but I don't think Jo is going to write Snape a happy ending like that.


popkin - Sep 7, 2004 3:37 pm (#2375 of 2956)
Edited by Sep 7, 2004 4:42 pm
I think the quote was something like, "Has Snape ever been in love?" JKR, "What a horrible thought! Who would want Snape to be in love with them?" It does leave the question open for debate, and it asks a question that could possibly be answered. Who would want Snape to be in love with them? She didn't come right out and say that no one would. So, maybe there is someone. And, if Snape being in love with someone is a horrible thought, then it must have horrible consequences. Either people get hurt if Snape acts on his feelings, or he is terribly, terribly lonely.


Potions Mistress - Sep 7, 2004 5:24 pm (#2376 of 2956)
Maybe Snape is so bitter and hateful because he has no love life. Wink In all honesty, I have to go with JKR's assesment with "Who would want to love him?" (with the exception of Gina, wherever she might be). It isn't impossible that no one would love Snape, but I don't see it as very probable. As to Popkin's thought that people could get hurt when Snape acts on his feelings--yes Snape most definitely acts on his feelings, but so far, it's only been conclusively with people he doesn't like (HRH, Neville, etc.) Of course there was speculation way the heck back on this thread that Snape had feelings for Lily as a teenager, but couldn't/wouldn't show them, and so called her a Mudblood, but I really don't see a thirty-something Snape pulling the same kind of thing with a possible love interest...


hellocello3200 - Sep 7, 2004 5:26 pm (#2377 of 2956)
Padfoot, I agree.I think JKR doesn't like Snape as much as we do and might not write hima happy ending. However, I do think Snape has a nasty side even if he is loyal to DD and isn't completely the misunderstood soul that people make him out to be.


Weeny Owl - Sep 7, 2004 7:18 pm (#2378 of 2956)
However, I do think Snape has a nasty side even if he is loyal to DD and isn't completely the misunderstood soul that people make him out to be.

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Snape has a nasty side. With me it isn't a question of whether or not he's nice or mean but whether or not he actually wants Voldemort defeated, and I believe he does.

I can see reasons for him being what he is and acting the way he does, but that doesn't mean I would like to be on the receiving end of his temper. He definitely has a nasty side, misunderstood or not.


Emiko - Sep 7, 2004 7:33 pm (#2379 of 2956)
Anyone seen Phantom of the Opera here? Thoughout this forum I've been seeing Snape more and more like the Phantom. Which makes me want to cry. :'( Because Erik's (the Phantom) story is so pitiful, and yet, he's so awful. Yes, he's definitely reminding me of Snape. But, Erik acted on his feelings for Christine, murdered two, almost three people, kidnapped Christine, and almost forced him to marry him. Acting on love CAN be bad. Perhaps Snape could love (or could have loved?) so much he looses control of his emotions and of himself.


Potions Mistress - Sep 7, 2004 8:54 pm (#2380 of 2956)
Interesting proposition, Emiko. I think PoA definitely showed what can happen when Snape loses control. On a completely different note, does anyone beside me ever get Pink Floyd's "Brick in the Wall" playing in their head when the subject of Snape comes up? Especially the part about "no dark sarcasm in the classroom, teacher leave them kids alone..." Or am I just nuts? (Not that that is necessarily a bad thing...Wink ).


Solitaire - Sep 7, 2004 8:55 pm (#2381 of 2956)
It is possible that Snape has loved--or loved as much as he was able--in the past and has been so deeply hurt that he has shut himself off completely as far as his emotions. Then again, if his home life was a complete nightmare and his parents had a horrible marriage, he may not have been able even to love. I've known people whose parents were so hateful to each other--and the kids got caught in the fallout--that they have vowed NEVER to marry. I can see Snape coming out of a background like that, too. Whatever his story, Snape seems to have been poisoned emotionally, if you ask me.

As to Bertha Jorkins, I thought she was older than Snape, closer to Tom Riddle's generation. No? I remember wondering once if it could have been Tom Riddle she saw kissing Florence. I can't get to the Wizarding Who's Who to check ... it won't open for me. Oh, well ... I'll try again later.

Anyway, it's too bad for Snape. If he could love, his life might be quite different.

Solitaire


Potions Mistress - Sep 7, 2004 8:57 pm (#2382 of 2956)
Solitaire, Sirius in OotP that Bertha was a few years ahead of him.


Solitaire - Sep 7, 2004 9:13 pm (#2383 of 2956)
Ah, thanks, PM. I could not remember.


popkin - Sep 7, 2004 10:01 pm (#2384 of 2956)
Edited by Sep 7, 2004 11:03 pm
I keep thinking of the "wearing your heart on your sleeve" comment that Snape makes to Harry durring occlumency lessons. I think that he has to have worn his heart on his sleeve on at least one occasion and been badly burned. I imagine it involves his feelings for a young lady, but may not have been expressed to her directly. If Lord Voldemort knew that Snape had a thing for, say....Lily, then he might have used that information to twist Snape's thumbscrews, so to speak. Voldemort might have wanted to know where Snape's loyalties lay. I can see Snape handing Voldemort "weapons" to use against himself during a mind probing session, and I can see Voldemort using Snape's feelings to manipulate him into doing things which were mortifying to him. Then, when he decided that anything would be better than living with that torture, he turned to Dumbledore, took occlumency lessons, and stayed on at Hogwarts.


schoff - Sep 7, 2004 10:57 pm (#2385 of 2956)
I still say Snape is married, but not happily, and perhaps not even willingly. It's the only way I can fathom Malfoy treating him the way he does, if Snape is married to someone in his family or something.


rambkowalczyk - Sep 8, 2004 5:11 am (#2386 of 2956)
Schoff, How do you think Malfoy would treat Snape differently. Malfoy treats "useful" people with respect. Could you elaborate?

Potion Mistress, I sometimes think of that Pink Floyd song as well.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 8, 2004 6:14 am (#2387 of 2956)
Snape married... I am having a hard time getting my mind to wrap around that one, unless of course is married to Gina ;-)

Potion Mistress, ever since you mentioned that song I have been humming it. Maybe soon someone will mention a different one so I can change "stations".


haymoni - Sep 8, 2004 6:31 am (#2388 of 2956)
Someone had posted a link to a Snape video with "I am a rock" playing and that has become my Snape theme song everytime I read his lines.

Does anyone have that link? I thought it was Gina who posted it.


Potions Mistress - Sep 8, 2004 8:29 am (#2389 of 2956)
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks of Pink Floyd when it comes to Snape. As Haymoni mentioned, there is a link someone on this thread of "I Am a Rock," but I haven't found it yet. I definitely think that song too applies to Snape--it seems as if he does not let anyone get too close to him--I think the question is why? Is it because he loved and lost? Or because of his link to Voldemort? Maybe his upbringing? There are no conclusive answers as of yet, so it's definitely something to ponder.

PS: TBE, hope you have been able to "change stations." Smile


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 8, 2004 9:31 am (#2390 of 2956)
:-), yes I have thank you. Now on Good Viberation for Sherbie.
Here's the link. I think this is the one you are looking for.


haymoni - Sep 8, 2004 9:37 am (#2391 of 2956)
Check this thread - post 1553 - the "I am a rock" link is there.

Sorry, I don't know how to do links.


Ann - Sep 8, 2004 10:57 am (#2392 of 2956)
I'd go with "I am a rock," myself....

schoff: "I still say Snape is married, but not happily, and perhaps not even willingly. It's the only way I can fathom Malfoy treating him the way he does, if Snape is married to someone in his family or something."

It's interesting that you should say this, since I'd been thinking about another possible love interest for Snape: Narcissa Malfoy, before her marriage. We've been told that Snape hung out with the Lestranges (including Bellatrix), and I've argued for a (possibly consummated) passion for Bella. But what about her sister? Lucius Malfoy's attitude (kind to him, sympathetic, but condescending) would be appropriate if he had married the woman Snape loved, and we certainly can see Narcissa going for the money (and the clean hair, perhaps, too). And JKR says we'll be seeing more of Narcissa now that Lucius is in the slammer....


Weeny Owl - Sep 8, 2004 11:54 am (#2393 of 2956)
Lucius Malfoy's attitude (kind to him, sympathetic, but condescending)

We've seen plenty of Lucius but we've never seen him with Snape, so we really don't know anything about their relationship except that Umbridge says Lucius always speaks highly of him. That could mean he's kind and sympathetic to Snape, but I don't see it as meaning that he's condescending toward Snape. Not that I think Malfoy would be anything but condescending with anyone except Voldemort, of course.

They may not even be friends but have only a business-type relationship about the goings on at Hogwarts while Lucius was a governor, and after that ended, about Draco.

I've wondered about whether or not Snape even knew Malfoy was a Death Eater, and I'm more and more inclined to think he wasn't at the graveyard because of that one sudden movement he made in the hospital wing after Harry said Malfoy's name. I'm beginning to think that while he may have suspected Malfoy was a Death Eater, he didn't actually know for sure until Harry named names.


haymoni - Sep 8, 2004 12:15 pm (#2394 of 2956)
I thought he made the movement BEFORE Harry said Malfoy's name.

If Lucius said that he had been Imperio'd and Snape knew better but kept his mouth shut (or so Lucius thought), Lucius may owe our beloved Severus a bit of a life debt.


Weeny Owl - Sep 8, 2004 12:49 pm (#2395 of 2956)
I checked, and when Harry said "Lucius Malfoy," it was then that Snape made a sudden movement. That is what makes me wonder if Snape didn't know for sure until then that Malfoy was really a Death Eater.


Elanor - Sep 8, 2004 12:53 pm (#2396 of 2956)
I've checked and this is the quote: " [...] Harry shouted. [...] I saw the death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy-' Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge."

There is certainly something here! Maybe Snape knew Lucius was a DE but was surprised that he answered immediately Voldemort's call. Knowing how sneaky old Lucius is, he may have thought he would have waited a little before joining Voldemort again, just to see how things were going on and preparing a nice tale to explain why he's late...

Or maybe was he afraid to hear Narcissa's name too if the suggestion Ann made was right?

Or maybe was he afraid that Voldemort would learn something about him through Malfoy, using legilimency or just asking: I think Malfoy would betray anyone he thinks is his friend if this could help him...

EDIT: I think you posted when I was searching Weeny Owl!

BTW, someone was talking about "The wall"'s lyrics in a previous post. I never understood all the words of it, any idea where I could read them?


timrew - Sep 8, 2004 2:55 pm (#2397 of 2956)
I think one of the lines is, "Hey, Kreacher! Leave them kids alone!"


haymoni - Sep 8, 2004 3:33 pm (#2398 of 2956)
Oh, Timothy!!! I laughed out loud - and loudly, too.

Ungrateful Son is yelling, "What?? What??" He'll never understand.

I don't think I'll be able to listen to that song again without howling. Thanks!

Back to our regularly scheduled program...

I think Snape finally realized what had happened. The mark had burned and DEs had actually rejoined Voldy. It wasn't enough that Barty Jr. had gotten Harry to Voldemort - the evil git was back and Snape the Double Agent had to go back to work.


timrew - Sep 8, 2004 4:27 pm (#2399 of 2956)
And the next line is, "All in all you're just another head on the wall".


Phoenix song - Sep 8, 2004 6:30 pm (#2400 of 2956)
timrew: You are just too funny! I can't believe that you were able to tie that one in to Kreacher and his heart's desire. Kudos to you!

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Potions Mistress - Sep 8, 2004 6:46 pm (#2401 of 2956)
Tim! I'm ROFL! I don't know if I'll ever be able to listen to Floyd the same way again! Hee hee!!


Potions Mistress - Sep 8, 2004 6:50 pm (#2402 of 2956)
Eleanor, I'd just google the song "Brick in the Wall." Admittedly, only a couple of the lines reminded me of Snape. (It may be a good thing that he doesn't have a "fat and psychopathic wife who would thrash him within inches of his life." There, see, another link to Pink Floyd and now Snape's love life. Wink )

I think that I will take a moment to apologize to diehard Floyd fans who are now burning me in effigy. No disrespect is meant and just remember, it could be worse: I could be linking Floyd to Lockhart! Wink


schoff - Sep 8, 2004 7:19 pm (#2403 of 2956)
rambkowalczyk: Schoff, How do you think Malfoy would treat Snape differently. Malfoy treats "useful" people with respect. Could you elaborate?

Malfoy appears to me to treat Snape with the indulgence and support of a family member--especially considering Umbridge's "he always speaks highly of you" comment. Like a rich father getting his son a job, or a family member giving a teen a recommendation--that kind of relationship. I'm probably not really explaining it well.

And I have nothing substantial to back this up, but I think Snape might be married for Order business--and that's what DD was talking about during "The Parting of the Ways". Possibly as something similar to a deep undercover assignment. DD has a lot of plans in effect, some of them long-term (Harry). Why not something along the lines of a spy in deep-cover? I'm sure DD has other things up his sleeves.

Weeny Owl: I've wondered about whether or not Snape even knew Malfoy was a Death Eater

I'm positive he doesn't know, or he wouldn't treat Snape the way he does.


Emiko - Sep 8, 2004 7:28 pm (#2404 of 2956)
Well, I personally don't believe Snape's married, (besides JKRs comment about who could (or would?) love Snape... sorry, don't have direct quote) becase he's always at Hogwarts for Christmas and Easter. Not all the professors are there (Sinistra, Vedder, etc.) I'd assume they had signifigant others with whom to spend time... (that's not my idea, someone else posted it, but I cannot, for the life of me, remember where) And, didn't JKR say something about teachers and spouses? or, teachers and no spouses?


schoff - Sep 8, 2004 7:33 pm (#2405 of 2956)
It's more likely Snape stays for Christmas because he's a Head of House than because he's not married.


Potions Mistress - Sep 8, 2004 8:05 pm (#2406 of 2956)
I have to agree with Emiko. JKR did say that "who could/would love Snape?" or something to that effect. Also, if Snape currently had a wife or love interest of any sort, I'm sure the students would know--through direct observations and student-driven rumors. I would also imagine that even if Snape stayed for the holidays because he's Head of House, wife would join him.


Solitaire - Sep 8, 2004 11:33 pm (#2407 of 2956)
I would think that the Significant Other of someone like Snape could be in a lot of danger, given his history with the DEs and his current activities with the Order. This could be one reason why JKR suggests secrecy with her faculty members on this issue. Spouses, S.O.s, and children could easily become pawns and bargaining chips in the War.

Solitaire


EbonyRebel - Sep 9, 2004 1:57 am (#2408 of 2956)
When I first heard the theory that Snape is married, I scoffed. However, the more I think of it, the more likely it becomes. As I was mulling it over, the most likely scenario, IMO, is that Snape is related to Lucius Malfoy, hence the reason why he was not on the Black tapestry (it only mentioned Malfoy as married to Narcissa - it didn't branch out into the Malfoy family itself). It would also explain why himself and Lucius are friends, as I couldn't imagine either of them spending so much time together purely for the pleasure of each other's company - they'd spend time together patting each other on the back congratulating each other on being "nature's nobility", superior to all others! As for the identity of the wife, she's probably Lucius's second cousin, once removed or something. Snape being married into such a powerful family makes his cover extremely convincing. Also, I've wondered, why is information about spouses withheld information? I like Solitaire's suggestion of keeping these people secret to protect them - in Snape's case, however, I prefer to think of his having a wife consolidating his cover, as well as being another DE, ready and willing to pass information about other DE activities to him, as this situation would be very influencial in the war.


EbonyRebel - Sep 9, 2004 4:03 am (#2409 of 2956)
By the way, (on a different tangent) I was wondering about a particular scene with Snape - an occlumency scene, to be exact, where Harry loses his temper and charges Snape with spying on the DE's. I've often wondered what could have prompted the "almost satisfied" expression on Snape's face. I've gone through the thread trying to find what other people said about it, but it's impossible to read through all the posts and remember them (I've been reading this thread all summer, and I still can't keep up!) Anyway, I've come up with a few reasons for this "satisfied expression". Number One: (Elanor suggested this before) Snape is satisfied with himself for having such an important job; 2: Snape is pleased that Harry has figured it out for himself, and thus knows how important Snape is to the Order; 3: Snape's pleased that he managed to goad Harry into an outburst (sounds Snapish to me); 4: (someone already suggested this) that Snape, having made Harry angry, can now look into his mind(because Harry's angrily staring into his eyes), and sees no trace of Voldemort in Harry's mind at the present moment, and knows therefore that Harry's not being possessed; and (finally - phew!) 5: (this is one of my favourites) Snape's ironic sense of humour is coming into play - Harry's statement "that's your job, isn't it?" was meant to be an accusation - Harry is charging Snape with his DE past. However, in truth, Harry is actually complimenting Snape - the fact that Harry thinks it's probable that Snape is spying on the DE's is actually an unwitting appreciation and praise of Snape's considerable abilities. I bet Snape loves the fact that Harry's accusation back-fired in his face! So, um, if anyone has any more thoughts on this, I'd be happy to hear them. Anything that goes to further the understanding of the enigma that is Snape! (Don't you just love him??)


Chemyst - Sep 9, 2004 5:48 am (#2410 of 2956)
Maybe I'm giving Snape too much credit.. Nah, but I've interpreted this as somewhere between #2 and #5 – Snape is thinking, "Hmm, he's figured out that this is serious stuff I'm doing here. Maybe this Potter kid isn't such a dolt after all. There just may be hope he actually could out-fox old Voldy."

This interpretation assumes Snape knows the full prophecy, (either he heard it or DD filled him in,) and that Snape realizes even though he may not like it, that Harry is the only hope for the wizarding world.


rambkowalczyk - Sep 9, 2004 6:20 am (#2411 of 2956)
Schoff, EbonyRebel and to anyone else who thinks Snape might be married to a Malfoy relative.

The idea is that Snape gets favored treatment from Lucius because he married a relative of his. (Maybe it is Lucius's sister,Florence.) Is Snape married because this is convenient to the order? Is this how he spies on the order? Wife is a top but secret DeathEater. Snape gets information from her instead of Voldemort directly.

Does this mean Snape loves her? Does he want to save her from being a deatheater? Or does he despise her and only stays in this arrangement because it is convenient to the order.

A whole lot of questions to consider.


Elanor - Sep 9, 2004 10:28 am (#2412 of 2956)
I've never thought before that Snape could be married and I have to say that your arguments are very interesting and really make me think, though I still think that if he would be married, his wife should have been seen, at least for Christmas, in Hogwarts.

On another hand, he could be a widower too. Her wife could have been killed during the first war, maybe even on Voldemort's order because she didn't want to do something (assuming she was a DE too). It could explain why Snape came to spy for the Order and why he is always dressed in black... Well, I know, it is a very far-fetched theory and I'm not really convinced myself, but who knows?

BTW: LOL and thanks Tim and Potion mistress for "wall"'s remarks! Personally, I think to Snape each time I hear "All you need is love": I would love to see him in love! He could be a new man!


Ann - Sep 9, 2004 3:16 pm (#2413 of 2956)
I don't think Snape is a relative by marriage of Malfoy's. Otherwise, there would be no sense in Draco's remarks in CoS that he will put in a good word for Snape with his father if they are looking for a new headmaster. If he was part of the same family, Draco would know that his father knew him better than he does.

As for the remark by Potions Mistress a few posts back that "if Snape currently had a wife or love interest of any sort, I'm sure the students would know--through direct observations and student-driven rumors.": that is actually not true at all! Students are always amazed to learn that their teachers have any life outside the school at all. They seem to believe that they are packed away in boxes over the summer break, and unpacked again in the fall. JKR has been a teacher, and is clearly aware of how incurious younger students are about their teachers. (They begin to be more aware as they get older--though in my experience, even college students still tend to believe we exist only to serve them!) It wouldn't surprise me to find out that several of the faculty is married, possibly to each other!


Solitaire - Sep 9, 2004 4:09 pm (#2414 of 2956)
Ann: Students are always amazed to learn that their teachers have any life outside the school at all. They seem to believe that they are packed away in boxes over the summer break, and unpacked again in the fall.

LOL Ann! I suppose it probably is that way for lower grade teachers. We junior high teachers endure endless questions about our private lives. The kids want to know everything. Sometimes it's hard to have any secrets at all!

Solitaire


hellocello3200 - Aug 29, 2004 7:26 am (#2415 of 2956)
I mentioned this before somewhere, but I have a new way to phrase it after reading some of the posts. Someone like Snape (We'll assume he is loyal to the Order for the sake of simplicity) who is an active member of the Order wants to get married. Their spouse would be in danger from the DE and could be use as a pawn if capture. People who are dear to Order members are weak spots. The exsistance of a Mrs. Snape would be best kept a secret, so that if Snape's cover is blown, his wife wouldn't be captured and used to manipulate him while held as a hostage(This would apply to DD and McGonagall as well.)


rambkowalczyk - Sep 10, 2004 4:00 am (#2416 of 2956)
This is why I don't think Snape doesn't have a wife. Voldemort is good at legilimency. Snape may be good at Occlumency but sometimes it is best not to have that many secrets to hide.


Potions Mistress - Sep 10, 2004 9:07 pm (#2417 of 2956)
Elanor, I find your idea that Snape might be a widower intriguing. He has always struck me as a distant person--not that his personality helps matters much. Although, in all fairness, perhaps he has developed the personality of viper not only from the hands of MWPP, but from losing a wife. Just some thoughts.

PS: LOL about "All you need is love..."

(Wanders off singing "All you need is love, love, love. Love is all you need. Love is all you need.")


Elanor - Sep 11, 2004 7:02 am (#2418 of 2956)
I know what you mean, Potion Mistress, I've sung it all day long after posting it here...

The ideas that Snape is a widower or is married are certainly intriguing, but the more I think about it, the more I believe he must always have been unlucky in love. He seems to be incapable of saying what he feels without biting or being sarcastic.

The reason he acts like that can be discussed: is he only a "viper" as you said, or is it some kind of self-protection (don't love and don't make other people love you and you won't get hurt)? I think it was Solitaire who was saying that people who had a difficult childhood as he had thanks to their parents' marriage are very reluctant to commit themselves afterwards. I think it might explain a lot concerning the way he is acting, but it is only a feeling that I have and the opposite opinion is just as coherent to be honest. But that's why we like Snape, don't we?


Choices - Sep 11, 2004 8:54 am (#2419 of 2956)
If there is a Mrs. Snape, then she is a very neglected woman. We know most nights Snape is patrolling the corridors of the school, so he sure doesn't run home after classes to be with the little woman and any little Snape juniors.

Just a thought: In chapter 22 of GOF, Rowling writes that Snape would no sooner let them play games in class than he would adopt Harry. Could this be a hint of things to come in book six or seven? Any ideas?


Emiko - Sep 11, 2004 10:04 am (#2420 of 2956)
Well, what about the Lily element? (I am still a Snape-Lily shipper) Her marriage could have been the catalyst that slung him over to LV, and her death, or possible forewarning, could have been the catalyst that slung him back to DD. Although, I admit there is no canon for my theory. Only the lack of Lily-bashing by Snape. Which is odd because usually the "mom" is the first to be attacked in insult-land. Still, though, I don't believe Snape is married. I do believe he was in love at one point (possibly still in love) but being Snape, he won't let that get in his way. He might not even acknowledge it.

Choices- I see the line about Snape not adopting Harry, but I think that that was referring to Snape letting them play games in class rather than praise Harry for accomplishing the first task (as Prof. Flitwick did in the paragraph earlier). It had nothing to do with actual adoption. Although, adopt isn't the best word choice for that scenario, so perhaps you have validation. Now that Sirius is gone, SOMEONE has to take Harry in, Harry needs someone to advise him. My first choice would be Lupin- but perhaps Harry and Snape will overcome their differences. It'd certainly be easier to contact Snape than Lupin. Who knows?


Ann - Sep 11, 2004 10:08 am (#2421 of 2956)
Choices, surely at sixteen, Harry's getting a bit old to be adopted... And, besides, doesn't he have to be at home with the Dursleys to get the benefit of his mother's blood? (Although, I suppose if they are all murdered at the start of Book 6, he'd have a bit more freedom.)

I don't think Snape can be married. He would probably be much less sour if he anyone had made that kind of commitment to him--and I would bet he'd be far too grateful to a wife to neglect her by hanging out in the corridors at night. That he is a widower seems possible, but also seems unlikely, since JKR certainly doesn't find him him attractive (as a man--she clearly loves writing him). I'm holding out for the hypothesis that he was rejected by one, or both, of the Black sisters--Narcissa would have just sniffed, but I'm betting Bella would have toyed with him a bit before she cruelly cast him aside.


EbonyRebel - Sep 11, 2004 11:32 am (#2422 of 2956)
If the argument that Snape's wearing black all the time suggests that he is a widower, he would have to have a lot of respect and/or love for his wife to continue wearing black - we know that he has been wearing black for at least five years! On the other hand, maybe his wife WAS killed doing DE work, and Snape switched over to DD because of that, in which case he wears black to constantly remind himself just WHY he changed over to DD's side in the first place? Hmm, seems unlikely to me, somehow. I must admit, I've always inclined towards the Lily 'ship side of things, as I think that this would support the reason Snape loaths Harry soooo much - it must be horrible seeing the eyes of the woman you love in the face of your worst enemy. (Rambkowalcyzk, I think that if Snape has a wife, it is strictly on Order business, and that he doesn't really love her - it's strictly duty). I think Snape wears black because that's an expression of who he is - he's not in the least bit frivolous, and I couldn't imagine him caring enough about his appearance to think much about choosing different things to wear each day. On the other hand, he might like black because of it's slimming qualities (black does improve the figure!)


Phoenix song - Sep 11, 2004 3:02 pm (#2423 of 2956)
Ebony Rebel: You've taken my thoughts exactly! Snape most likely wears black because it's slimming! Also, maybe it hides the potion stains?

Barbie


haymoni - Sep 11, 2004 6:46 pm (#2424 of 2956)
Severus is married to Gina.

Period.


Solitaire - Sep 11, 2004 7:37 pm (#2425 of 2956)
Actually, I think Snape wears black because he is a bat animagus ... or possibly a vampire. The turtleneck covers the vampire wound. All black makes him look very Gothic. Snape is a very dark, mysterious, brooding character, and black enhances and emphasizes those qualities. (It is also possible that Gina told him he looks good in black, so he always wears it to please her.)

In the movies ... Dumbledore, on the other hand, frequently wears those beautiful majestic purple robes and a hat studded with gold braid and what appear to be gemstones. Purple is the rich color of royalty, but the light, bright colors that adorn it match his light, shining character and personality. Can you imagine Dumbledore's robes and hats on Snape? They would look ridiculously inappropriate.

McGonagall always wears some black, but the robe of rich emerald green seems to show that there are other facets to her character than the stern teacher in black. Flitwick also appears to wear other colors besides black, and his personality is winsome and a bit humorous. Lockhart's brightly colored robes seem to reflect his vain, self-absorbed personality. The complete absence of black seems to indicate a lack of substance in his case.

These are just my interpretations, of course.

Solitaire


Agramante - Sep 11, 2004 8:53 pm (#2426 of 2956)
But very convincing interpretations, Solitaire. From the monotonous Snape to the flighty Lockhart, the colors mean something. No less the house quidditch robes...and it's tough to deny the common element of severity in both McGonagall and Snape...but green signifies life, and with the broom episode in book one McG showed how wonderful and playful she really is...werewolves bear no obvious traces of their condition when they aren't actually wolves. Don't vampire shun the sun, at all times? And if they don't, do their teeth change when it's night? I'd think Snape would show some signs of being a vampire, if he was one.


Solitaire - Sep 11, 2004 9:05 pm (#2427 of 2956)
You are probably right, Agramante ... but I can fantasize, can't I? In book one or two, I read a description of Snape "swooping" around the castle in the middle of the night.

In GoF, following the Barty Sr. business, Ron and Harry are talking over the whole incident. Ron asks if Snape could have beaten Harry and Dumbledore down to where Harry had left Barty Sr. with Krum.

Harry says, "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," to which Ron replies that he wouldn't put it past him. So the "bat" thing has just lodged in my brain and won't go away!

I will admit my students put me onto the Vampire idea. Remember when Snape--covering Remus's classes while Remus was "wolfed out"--assigns an essay on Werewolves? The next thing you know, we read that Remus has assigned the kids an essay on Vampires! My students suggested that it was retaliation against Snape. It sounded good to me!

Solitaire


Agramante - Sep 11, 2004 9:24 pm (#2428 of 2956)
Especially with this offhand sight gift that Ron seems to maybe have...absolutely, it's worth imagining! That's the point, after all...


Potions Mistress - Sep 11, 2004 9:40 pm (#2429 of 2956)
I believe Choices mentioned something about Snape prowling the corridors every night and not running home to any little Snape juniors. All I have to say to that is that any children of Severus would probably end up being scarier than any children of Hagrid and Madam Maxime! Smile (Not that I think Snape has children, and I'm still pretty unconvinced about the wife--whether alive or not--although there are some pretty intriguing ideas.) ~pm


timrew - Sep 12, 2004 5:54 am (#2430 of 2956)
Okay, I posted this little song on the Dumbledore thread, and I was asked to post it on the Snape thread also. So here goes.......

To the tune of Pink Floyd's, "Another Brick In The Wall"......

We don?t need no confrontation:
We don?t need no Voldy mole.
No lurking in the Black house corners:
Kreacher leave them kids alone.
Hey! Kreacher! Leave them kids alone!
All in all you?re just another head on the wall.

I think JKR dresses Snape in black because he is, well, a nasty character, who may have an epiphany to come, or not, as the case may be.

But it would be a detriment to his character if JKR had him dressing like Gilderoy Lockhart!


Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Sep 12, 2004 5:58 am (#2431 of 2956)
Tim, you are priceless.



Richard !!!Reid - Sep 12, 2004 8:03 am (#2432 of 2956)
Once again Tim, I love it. I am in agreement with most of the posts here. Snape dresses in black as it coincides with his dark, ominous character.


Madame Pomfrey - Sep 12, 2004 10:37 am (#2433 of 2956)
Great lyrics Timrew.Interesting ideas on the bat/black discussion.Hey Timrew,Can you do Bat in Black by ACDC?


Elanor - Sep 12, 2004 1:06 pm (#2434 of 2956)
Tim, I'm taking my hat off to you... This is brilliant! I'm afraid that tomorrow morning, kids will hear me sing all alone "Kreacher leave them kids alone!" in the playgroung, with a stupid grin on my face. Thank goodness they don't speak English...

BTW, I like the epiphany idea very much!


ShelterGirl - Sep 12, 2004 4:57 pm (#2435 of 2956)
Tim-

I am in awe.


Catherine - Sep 12, 2004 4:58 pm (#2436 of 2956)
Brilliant, Tim.

I bow to the King of Spew. **kneels and touches forehead to ground**


Choices - Sep 12, 2004 5:11 pm (#2437 of 2956)
Great song Tim - I bet the Weird Sisters will be calling you any day wanting to record it. LOL

I think black is just a very common color (?) for clothes in the WW. I know Muggle men who perfer black business suits and Muggle women like those little black dresses. Wizards and witches like black. It makes dressing easy - nothing to have to match or coordinate - same ol' black top and bottom. Dumbledore and Lockhart just have more panache than the average wizard. Also, I think Snape figures black suits the image he wishes to project.


Emiko - Sep 12, 2004 7:46 pm (#2438 of 2956)
Choices, that was my take on the whole black situation as well. We know that all the students have to wear black robes, it just made sense to me that black was a common wizarding color. But, if it's really not a wizarding color, certainly Snape's black would again emphasize that he doesn't care about appearance? We already know he doesn't wash his hair, and (according to Sirius in the memory) he probably didn't wash his face much either. Black, like afroementioned, is an easy color. Although, I can't help thinking black=nigredo.... But that's for another thread... *tear tear*


Weeny Owl - Sep 12, 2004 7:49 pm (#2439 of 2956)
We already know he doesn't wash his hair

Actually, we really don't know what Snape's personal hygiene habits are... we just know he has oily hair. That could be an inherited trait and not a matter of personal cleanliness.


Solitaire - Sep 12, 2004 7:52 pm (#2440 of 2956)
It could also be a result of that special potion I think he uses NOT to transform into a bat or Vampire. (Sorry ... I couldn't resist.)


phaedrus Lucipher - Sep 12, 2004 10:05 pm (#2441 of 2956)
I am very new to this and this may already been explained.

As LV was residing in the turban of Quirrell, Snapes and Quirrell had a private discussion in the woods relating to the stone. LV would've known at the time that Snapes is working for AD (Albus Dumbledore). Otherwise it would have been a good time for LV to reveal himself to have Snape help him


Potions Mistress - Sep 12, 2004 10:17 pm (#2442 of 2956)
Welcome, phaedrus. This is a huge thread, so you're idea might have been discussed, but not that I've seen so far. I am now wondering if that would make Snape the "one who...has left...forever" (GF, Ch. 33, 651, Am. version). Something to think about...

~pm


TomProffitt - Sep 13, 2004 4:15 am (#2443 of 2956)
"As LV was residing in the turban of Quirrell, Snapes and Quirrell had a private discussion in the woods relating to the stone. LV would've known at the time that Snapes is working for AD (Albus Dumbledore). Otherwise it would have been a good time for LV to reveal himself to have Snape help him ." --- phaedrus Lucipher

I'm very certain this has been discussed recently, I'm just not certain which thread. I read all of the character threads and about a third of the rest. The strongest argument on this line seem to imply that Severus did not know he was opposing Lord Voldemort and therefore was supporting his "cover" as a follower of Dumbledore.


Madame Pomfrey - Sep 13, 2004 5:50 am (#2444 of 2956)
Potions Mistress,I have wondered also if the missing deatheater that may never return is Snape but at the same time I've thought that maybe Snape was one of the deatheaters that Voldemort skipped when addressing them at the rebirthing.He would be there to spy for D.D.but Voldemort believing Snape is on his side wouldn,t want to blow his cover since he is a teacher at hogwarts and close to D.D.I cant help from thinking that the missing deatheater is Cornelius Fudge.He seems shady to me.What do you all think?


Potions Mistress - Sep 13, 2004 5:58 am (#2445 of 2956)
Fudge as a DE...interesting idea, but I don't think Fudge is evil, just more interested in keeping his power--something Voldy would definitely threaten. I think Fudge and Umbridge share the same kind of shadiness--definitely bad, in the case of Umbridge, evil, but not on par with Voldy. I can definitely see an argument for Snape being skipped in the interest of not blowing his supposed cover for Voldy. Hmm...ya' know, a lot of these questions might be answered when JKR finishes HBP. But, admittedly it'll probably raise a lot more questions too.


popkin - Sep 13, 2004 10:00 am (#2446 of 2956)
At one time I concluded that since Voldemort must know that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore (because of his discussion with Quirell) that he must be spying on the DEs and Voldemort now in secret - like in animagus, metamorphmagus, or vampire/bat form. I suppose he could also do his spying from a distance, if he is able to use legilimens without eyecontact, or if he has a mirror or portrait to watch Voldemort through.

OR, he could have gone back to Voldemort (on the night he blanched white when Dumbledore said "you know what you have to do" or close to it), and begged for forgiveness, saying something like, "if I had only known you were still alive, I would never have worked for Dumbledore..."


Loopy Lupin - Sep 13, 2004 10:08 am (#2447 of 2956)
This Snape/Quirrel/LV conundrum may well have been discussed before; I can't imagine it has not. But it is the first I've heard of it. Interesting. I don't know about Snape being among the graveyard DE's. He would have had to do some fancy footwork to get to a place where he could apparate and then leave LV's side to go back to HG's. I believe Snape is the one who has "left forever" but his skill as an Occlumens fooled LV again. Or has it?


popkin - Sep 13, 2004 10:27 am (#2448 of 2956)
Getting to the graveyard has been recently discussed on this thread, but it could still be a hundred posts back or more. The theory is that he used a time turner to go back, and since he already knew everything would turn out okay for Harry, he didn't have to do anything to save him.


Potions Mistress - Sep 13, 2004 10:56 am (#2449 of 2956)
I don't know if Snape is playing the "double-agent", where he acts like a DE, but then reports back to DD, or if he's the one who has left forever, and is now spying in a more secretive, covert manner. That's going to drive me nuts! Not that it's a long trip...Wink

~pm


phoenix fire - Sep 13, 2004 11:18 am (#2450 of 2956)
Just to put in my two knuts (as the new saying goes...) I don't think Snape could be a Vampire, simply because he can go out into the sun. While JKR can tweak the stories associated with magical "monsters" but I think she would stay true to the fundamentals. The full moon effects Lupin, so if Snape were a vampire, I think sunlight would effect him.
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Choices - Sep 13, 2004 5:40 pm (#2451 of 2956)
Is there any doubt that JKR is a clever, clever lady? Sometimes I think all the bat/vampire hints are just to send us all down the wrong trail - keep us puzzling over that question and we won't even spot the real clue. She is a master at disguising what she doesn't want us to find.


Hollywand - Sep 13, 2004 5:55 pm (#2452 of 2956)
In the graveyard scene of the Goblet of Fire, it seems to me that Voldemort fully expected to kill Harry after taking Harry's blood to reincarnate himself. He fully expected the Death Eaters to join him without question. So it seems that Voldemort would not have a reason to protect Snape's identity as he is assuming a future where Harry is dead and Hogwarts and Dumbledore are completely under attack. Ja?


Emiko - Sep 13, 2004 7:20 pm (#2453 of 2956)
Ja, Hollywand. Unless he didn't want the DEs to know that he had more than one spy at Hogwarts (by more than one I refer to Moody/Crouch as well.) Remember that none of the DEs know who everyone else is (protection of all, basically). And Severus Snape would be quite a prize if anyone told the MoM. Remember how insistant Karkaroff was the Snape was a DE? Either way, Time Turner, "fancy footwork", or missing (and possibly begging forgiveness) we won't know until book 6 or 7. These ideas have been circling for a long time.

And yes, the Quirrel aspect has been gone over, and over, and over again. (although many posts back). Although, no one ever pointed out that Quirrel didn't ask assistance of Snape, which he should have if LV believed that Snape was a loyal supporter. That's a really good idea. Could LV just have wanted no one to know he was back origionally, so he could hunt down/summon and punnish his DEs?

But, like aforementioned, the common agreement w/ Quirrel is that Snape didn't know LV was in his head (although shouldn't he have because of Legimency?) and "would have done differently if he had only known".

Pomfery, have you read the essay on Fudge the DE?


Pigwidgeon - Sep 13, 2004 7:48 pm (#2454 of 2956)
I know in an interview JKR said to a question about Snape's association with vampires was "no" although I'm not sure this clears up whether Snape himself is vampire or dhampire.

The thing about sunlight is a Hollywoodized variation of the vampire myth, and there are MANY. Even in Braham Stoker's "Dracula," probably the best known variation of the upire/vampire myths, Count Dracula could, indeed, go out into the day -- he was just more powerful at night.

There are many variations of the vampire/upire myths, depending on year, author and country. If memory serves, the first vampire stories that are similar to what we associate with vampires actually originated in Russia, and they were called Upires. However, the nature of the story escapes me right now. Stoker's tale is very loosly based on the Walachian prince Vlad Dracula (sometimes Draculea), the middle son of Vlad II. From what I've read, the Romanians aren't crazy about Stoker's tale, as Vlad III is still regarded as a folk hero. The sunlight thing wasn't popularized until the black and white Dracula movie, starring Bela Lugosi (I hope I spelled that right).

So who knows? If Snape is a vampire, perhaps he isn't allergic to sunlight. We don't know what rules JKR is using in regards to vampires since they have only been mentioned in passing thus far.

Oh, on a side note: Tim? Your song was wonderful! I'm still chuckling. All hail the King of SPEW! *bows down*

Potions Mistress [/b]- Sep 13, 2004 7:50 pm (#2455 of 2956)
I was just thinking (which is kind of a scary thing) and realized that of the many songs that remind us of Snape, I have not heard mentioned the one song that I think sums Snape up perfectly. But this is a huge thread, so if it has already been mentioned, forgive me and just remember that great minds think alike. Wink Alright, drum roll please...the last words go "she broke my little bottle of love potion number nine!" (Which might explain the lack of a Mrs. Snape.) Smile (And I promise, no more song reminders from me for awhile.)

~pm


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 13, 2004 8:40 pm (#2456 of 2956)
LMAO, PM, you just made my day! Love Potion #9!

Now am wondering about the other 8!


Solitaire - Sep 13, 2004 10:46 pm (#2457 of 2956)
Madame Pomfrey: I cant help from thinking that the missing deatheater is Cornelius Fudge.

2 interesting editorials for you:
Cornelius Fudge: Death Eater or Dimwit?
The Missing Death Eater

Pigwidgeon, I believe you posted about Snape and sunlight. I was just wondering when we had seen him outside in the sun? Except for the Pensieve scene--which happened when he was still a student and could have been before he was vamped(if he was)--I can't remember any times, although it is quite likely that they have escaped me. I always think of him prowling around in the dungeons and inside the dark parts of the castle during the daylight. Can someone please jog my memory on this point? Thanks.

Solitaire

Edited for more clarity


rosi reef - Sep 14, 2004 12:25 am (#2458 of 2956)
He is watching Quidditchgames for instance.


rambkowalczyk - Sep 14, 2004 4:49 am (#2459 of 2956)
Regarding Quirrel, Maybe Lord Voldemort didn't want Quirrel to know that Snape was also a deatheater. Voldemort didn't trust Quirrel enough. Therefore Voldemort didn't expect Snape to do anything helpful to his cause.


Madame Pomfrey - Sep 14, 2004 7:22 am (#2460 of 2956)
Thank you Emiko & Solitaire.I'm fairly new so I haven't read alot of the different posts.But believe me,I'll get to those right away.


hellocello3200 - Sep 14, 2004 5:13 pm (#2461 of 2956)
I doubt that Snape is a vampire, and I could have sworn I heard that JKR said he wasn't somewhere, but I could have made that up. If anyone is acting Draculaish it is LV. He drank blood (Unicorn, not human though) and kills people that he doesn't think are good in some way. (Vlad was famous for defending his country from invading Turks, which he dealt with in a rather nasty way.) I'm not saying that LV is a vampire, I just think he is closer to one than Snape. Being pale doesn't make you a Vampire, other wise my mom's whole side of the family must be of the undead.


haymoni - Sep 15, 2004 4:43 am (#2462 of 2956)
I'm never good at digging up exact quotes, but I believe the question was "Is Snape connected with Vampires in any way?" and JKR's response was something like "Er...I don't think so!"


Chemyst - Sep 15, 2004 5:29 am (#2463 of 2956)
Haymoni is very close –

Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so.

Marè "JKR Chat Transcript" 8/20/04 4:29pm

This is the initial post of the JKR Chat Transcript thread. Scroll about a fifth of the way down.


Paulus Maximus - Sep 15, 2004 6:37 am (#2464 of 2956)
So, if JKR herself is uncertain as to whether Snape is a vampire or not, I think that whether he is or not is irrelevant to the story.


The One - Sep 15, 2004 7:19 am (#2465 of 2956)
From another tread where Snape's potential as a traitor have been discussed:

sjcuk13 "JK Rowling at the Edinburgh Festival [/b]- Aug 15th" 9/15/04 4:40am

I don't think Snape would have it in him to be a traitor.

Not? He either is a double agent for the badies, or he did betray LV last time. He must be a capable traitor.

He also make a lot of small scale betrayals due to his old grudge. He constantly mistreats Harry and wants him expelled, even though he knows Dumbledore, his superior at school and in the Order, regards Harry at the most important piece in the approaching struggle against LV.

He also lets slip that Lupin is a werewolf, despite that he must have been instructed not to do so.

I do believe that he really did turn last time, and I do not think he is going to turn totally again. But he is so blinded by old hatred that he is not entirely reliable.

That lost Hogwarts a DADA teacher, and also partly explains the loss of Sirius.


Choices - Sep 15, 2004 9:37 am (#2466 of 2956)
When Snape refereed the quidditch match, was that a daytime game? I can't remember. If so, he would have been out in the sunlight.


The One - Sep 15, 2004 10:47 am (#2467 of 2956)
It was in the afternoon. When Harry leaves the changing room after the match, he sees the sunset.


Potions Mistress - Sep 15, 2004 3:17 pm (#2468 of 2956)
The One brought a good point--Snape is most definitely a skilled traitor, though I think it all boils down to who is betraying. I stand by my position on earlier posts (about a million back): whatever his personal feelings or misgivings, Snape will not turn around and betray DD. I suppose I should add that he will not (wittingly, anyway) betray DD to LV--I think an argument could be made that he did betray DD by "accidently" revealing Remus' lycanthropy. But, all in all, I believe that Snape's loyalty lies with DD--after all, he seems to be the only one to give Snape a chance (and a second chance at that!)

~pm

PS: TBE, in response to your post 2457: I think the other 8 (love potions) were broke too. Darn kids!


Lina - Sep 16, 2004 1:33 am (#2469 of 2956)
Well, all these theories about Snape's lovelife are really interesting: each of them could make a separate novel.

I have a point about a graveyard scene that seems not to be brought up yet. Voldemort mentions SOME names. He does not mean to expose them to Harry because he is certain that Harry will not leave the graveyard alive, but he does expose those names to the other DEs. And I'm sure he does it on purpose. By saying their names in front of many other DEs, he shows them that they are not in his mercy. And those DEs who he doesn't mention, are either insignificant, either he doesn't feel betrayed by them. That's the way I see it. And in this context, Snape is either still valuable to him, either one of "the two" mentioned separately.


EbonyRebel - Sep 16, 2004 1:55 am (#2470 of 2956)
I agree with you there, PM. Snape won't turn traitor. He's had a taste of the DE life, and he didn't like it. I can't help but remember his reaction when he saw the dead body of Cedric in Harry's mind - he looked really unnerved by it - and when Snape is angry, it usually means he's upset.

By the way, Solitaire, I loved your colour interpretations, especially the one about McGonagall. As for the black clothes of Snape's - it does illustrate his gothic nature, sure. But that doesn't mean he's a vampire. I think the whole vampire similarity is purely done to illustrate Snape's dark (when I say dark, I don't necessarily mean bad), serious, gothic, deep, brooding nature. I think the whole universal appeal of the vampire myth is because it illustrates the dark side in all our natures. (Also, just because someone is socially inept, doesn't mean they're evil. Conversely, look at Voldemort - he was described as a handsome, charming, popular kid.)

Anyway, there are my opinions - Snape is neither traitor nor vampire (Snape's situation in life {struggling between good and evil} has always enhanced the idea of his humanity to me. It's obvious he has a soul and is fighting for it. Sorry to disappoint, Solitaire!)

PS the Snape/graveyard seen has already been discussed both here and on the Death Eaters thread, as has the Quirrel situation.


Classicsquid592 - Sep 16, 2004 4:39 pm (#2471 of 2956)
We were talking about JKR's comments on Snape in her interview in the Edinburgh Festival chat. And started to get off topic so I will move that part of the discussion here. The thread was last contemplating the possibility that Snape might be a traitor. I will jump right into my response (not posted in that thread). I apologize for the possibility of bringing in a discussion that did not originate here, and hope I do not bring up any old discussions as I have not previously been involved in this thread. Here is a link to the thread wickedweasley "JK Rowling at the Edinburgh Festival [/b]- Aug 15th" 9/16/04 5:26pm

Rowling has done too much with the character. She never made us at any point suspect one of the hidden villains in the series, in fact, they have generally been extremely likable (except for Scabbers and Quirrel both of whom we were given very little reason to have any opinion on whatsoever). Even Riddle himself was quite popular and a model student. I just can't see JKR carrying a perfectly despicable character around for 5 books and suddenly making everything everyone has suspected about him to be true. We do not yet know the true reason Dumbledore trusts him. But I suspect we will in the future. Snape despises Harry, and he seems to hold grudges, but all of JKR's villains have so far felt fairer. I completely trusted Snape, but JKR's comments have raised a few doubts.


Solitaire - Sep 16, 2004 7:33 pm (#2472 of 2956)
Lena, I am not disappointed! Smile I do not expect others--or even anyone--to agree with me about Snape or anyone else. It is just my little pet theory. We all have them about one character or another, right?


popkin - Sep 17, 2004 12:34 am (#2473 of 2956)
Where's Gina? It's been a long time since she's posted on this thread.


Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2004 1:25 am (#2474 of 2956)
Perhaps Gina and Severus are enjoying a second honeymoon until HPB comes out.

I was talking to a woman at work today who thinks Snape actually does like Harry but chooses to be mean to make Harry stronger.

Personally, I don't agree with her. I think Snape helps Harry because he realizes Harry is the only hope for the Wizarding World.


septentrion - Sep 17, 2004 1:39 am (#2475 of 2956)
Gina has let us know on the chat thread that she'll be busy until Christmas at least (teaching, studying, running a homeless shelter...) and therefore she won't be able to even read the forum very much.


sjcuk13 - Sep 17, 2004 6:26 am (#2476 of 2956)
I think Snape helps Harry because he realizes Harry is the only hope for the Wizarding World (Weeney Owl)

That could be true one LV had been "taken care of" Snape will be (in a sense) free.


Emiko - Sep 17, 2004 8:04 pm (#2477 of 2956)
Weeny Owl, that idea's been tossed around here many-a-time... but way back in Gina's time. Before, the general consensus was that Snape didn't like Harry at all, so he got enjoyment in being nasty, but he also was trying to get Harry to control his temper (which he really does need to learn to do, look at what happened when he went after Bellatrix!) and to teach him. Because he's definitely learning more than Malfoy... I agree, it appears to be double-sided coin. Anyone have anything new? It's been a long time since the how-Snape-treats-Harry subject is brought up!


Potions Mistress - Sep 17, 2004 9:33 pm (#2478 of 2956)
I think that Snape treats Harry in such a nasty matter first and foremost because of the grudge he carries against James (and the rest of the Marauders, as well.) I think Emiko might be right, however, in saying that Snape uses it to teach Harry some self-control, but I believe that is more of a useful by-product, if you will, of Snape's hatred for Harry. Just my two knuts; what does everyone else think?

PS: If somebody talks to Gina, let her know that on the Remus thread that many of us have followed her lead and are now claiming Remus for a husband! Smile

~pm


El Cronista de Salem - Sep 18, 2004 2:37 am (#2479 of 2956)
Snape hasn't been compared only with bats. Yesterday I was reading extracts of the fifth, and he has been compared with a spider and a rabbit too... Any suggestion?


El Cronista de Salem - Sep 18, 2004 5:24 am (#2480 of 2956)
Possibilites of the Snape's boggart:

1 ) Lord Voldemort 2 ) Albus Dumbledore 3 ) His father 4 ) A werewolf 5 ) a vampire 6 ) other creature

I don't know why, but I like the idea of Dumbledore. JK Rowling didn't answer when somebody asked what form takes Snape's boggart and patronus, and I am sure that it is because there are very important for the next books.

About his patronus: as we know, it should be an animal, no? And as I think, there are not magical creatures as patronus in the story for the moment. It's right?

The patronus of Snape, as his boggart, must be some revelant creature. There are the animals that I think will reveal about Snape:

1 ) A bat 2 ) ¿A vampire? 3 ) A snake 4 ) A phoenix 5 ) Whatever of the four house animals


Elanor - Sep 18, 2004 7:09 am (#2481 of 2956)
Great lists El Crostina! Should I add some other possibilities?


for Snape's boggart: himself

for Snape's patronus: a black crow


Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 18, 2004 7:18 am (#2482 of 2956)
An interesting thought occurred to me after reading the most recent posts in the Lupin thread. It is possible to draw a parallel between Severus Snape and Comte d'Rochefort who was a polar opposite to d'Artangian because, of the nature of Harry's relationship to Severus.


El Cronista de Salem - Sep 18, 2004 7:19 am (#2483 of 2956)
hehehehe, himself would be great! poor Snape.

For the patronus... Why a black crow? It is interesting, really...


Choices - Sep 18, 2004 7:41 am (#2484 of 2956)
It is so hard to figure Snape out. I am constantly confused by what is written about him and what I want to believe about him. I love Snape - his character is so wonderful and mysterious - we all have a thousand questions and opinions about him. I read some things and then discount them because I don't want to believe them.... other things I read and give them more credibility because I want them to be true. The wind blows me first one way and then the other about Snape. I will be glad when JKR tells me what I can truly believe, until then I'm going to count him on the side of good.


Elanor - Sep 18, 2004 7:50 am (#2485 of 2956)
Nathan: I've just posted this on the Lupin thread:

Snape and the Comte de Rochefort... Interesting Nathan, very interesting... Rochefort: most of the time dressed in black, Richelieu's henchman, skilled, sarcastic, self-assured and dark and always on d'Artagnan's path...

But remember, at the end, Rochefort and d'Artagnan become friends! First, they had to behave in a friendly way (remember Richelieu telling them: "ainsi donc que l'on s'embrasse et que l'on soit sage si l'on tient à conserver sa tête" which means behave yourself if you want to keep your head on your shoulders). But at the end of the book, it is said that they fought a duel 3 times and each time d'Artagnan wounded Rochefort who said at the end that they shouldn't fight again. And he told him that: " Je suis plus votre ami que vous ne le pensez, car dès la première rencontre j'aurais pu, en disant un mot au cardinal, vous faire couper le cou. : "I am more your friend that you can imagine I am because, since the first time we met, I could have told the cardinal about you and you should have been beheaded". And after that they became real friends. It fits very well with Snape in PS: he could have let Harry die easily. So I hope they will become friendlier too at the end.

El Crostina: concerning the black crow, we had a discussion on the Alchemy thread about what Snape's alchemical symbol would be and we thought to the "black crow" symbol for him. If you want to read all the explanation, read the posts #222, 223 and 224 (sorry, I don't remember how to make a link...)

Edit: Choices: I do agree with you!


Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 18, 2004 7:56 am (#2486 of 2956)
Elanor, the quotation you quoted about the evolution of Rochefort and d'Artangian's friendship is what prompted the thought.


Weeny Owl - Sep 18, 2004 8:54 am (#2487 of 2956)
It's been a long time since the how-Snape-treats-Harry subject is brought up!

Yes, I realize it's been brought up quite a few times before, but there are a lot of new people here now, and after talking to the woman at work, I just found it interesting how differently we saw Snape.


Hollywand - Sep 18, 2004 9:58 am (#2488 of 2956)
My two knuts on the "how Snape treats Harry/Slytherin question"...I think Rowling is making the point that there exists a category of individuals in the world who are primarily self-serving and ambitious above all other desires. This category of people will not go away, so Harry must learn to deal with them.

For Snape's character, he is bright and talented, but uses his position to bully the trio. On some level, Snape has convinced himself that Harry needs to be taken down a notch because of his parents' history, which Harry knows nothing about. Snape also punishes Hermione for her intelligence, Neville for his awkwardness. Snape identifies areas of vulnerability, and uses them to his advantage to wound the students. Plenty of authority figures out there like this in the "real" world, so one has to learn to work with them without using their methods as a moral choice.

Draco and the Malfoys parallell the "haves" who are convinced that their fortune is a divine gift, and use their wealth and talent to torture and harass those that are less fortunate: elves, muggles, you name it. I think this may be one reason why many of the Slytherins are named after astrological constellations: Draco, Bellatrix,...Sirius is an exceptional star, a pivotal character. Edit: I realize Sirius was a Gryffindor, not a Slytherin, I am referring here to the character as an astrological metaphor.

I'm not sure that any of the Slytherins will ever be "good" in the Gryffindor sense of the word. Silver is a colder colored metal, harder, stonger, yet less valued than gold, a softer, warmer colored metal....no one ever says "that guy's got a heart of silver"... :-)

The transformation may ultimately be within Harry, as he learns to accept Snape's ambitious and self-serving ways, and learns to incorporate working with him to unite the houses. Snape will surely play a few key cards, as he seems to have a very strong alliegiance to Dumbledore.


********************************

Elanor, I agree with you on Snape and the Black Crow. If this image is associated with Severus, I will surely be screaming out loud as it will affirm the alchemy links we have all been working on in the Alchemy thread.... The anticipation is excruciating!! Crucio!!! ;-)


Ann - Sep 18, 2004 12:28 pm (#2489 of 2956)
Hollywand! *gasp* That's an unforgivable curse!


Hollywand - Sep 18, 2004 12:49 pm (#2490 of 2956)
Hi Ann, yes, alas, earwax, like Severus Snape, I am crucio ing myself, perhaps this means, as others have said about Severus, my own worst enemy. :- 0


hellocello3200 - Sep 18, 2004 2:00 pm (#2491 of 2956)
Elanor and Nathan, I like your ideas about parallels between Snape and Rochefort. I just hope the end of the series isn't as depressing as The Man in the Iron Mask.


Solitaire - Sep 18, 2004 3:39 pm (#2492 of 2956)
El Cronista de Salem in post #2481: "About his patronus: as we know, it should be an animal, no? And as I think, there are not magical creatures as patronus in the story for the moment. It's right?"

Isn't Harry's Patronus--Prongs the stag--considered a magical creature?

Elanor, you mention that in PS Snape could have let Harry die easily. I think I am losing my memory. When did Snape save Harry in PS? I can't seem to remember, and I do not have my book handy. Thanks.

Solitaire

Edited: I consolidated two small posts into one and deleted the second.


The One - Sep 18, 2004 3:49 pm (#2493 of 2956)
He was mumbling a counter course when Quirrel tried to hex Harry's broom during the first Quidditch game. Hermione mistakenly believed that Snape was the one hexing the broom, and set fire to Snape's robes. Luckily she happened to knock down Quirrel in the process.


Solitaire - Sep 18, 2004 4:35 pm (#2494 of 2956)
Thank you! I totally forgot that one!


constant vigilance - Sep 18, 2004 4:53 pm (#2495 of 2956)
OK, so in the Hermione thread there's been discussion on the question of what happens to a wizard who fails to come through on a life-debt. Snape saved Harry in that first Quidditch game because of the life-debt he had owed James and never repaid. This raises the question, what was Snape's motive for trying to save Harry?

I know this seems rather obvious, but I am trying to dig deeper into this whole life-debt thing. Are there magical consequences for not paying back a life-debt, or is it simply something that a wizard with integrity chooses to act upon? In other words, was Snape trying to save Harry because he feels that a life-debt must be repaid (acting out of integrity), or was he trying to save Harry simply because he didn't want to face the consequences of not repaying a life-debt?

I imagine that the opportunity to repay a life-debt does not come up in every wizard's life. I mean, magical life can be dangerous, but the person whose life you saved may or may not be present when your life is in need of saving. If someone owes you a life-debt and the opportunity to repay it never arises, they can hardly be blamed for not returning the favour. Yet Snape felt that his life-debt to James could be repaid through Harry. This suggests to me that he was acting out of integrity, because it seems that he could have just said "well, James is dead, guess I lost my chance to help him out" but instead he transferred the debt to James's son. Then again, maybe there were other occasions on which he could have helped James, and didn't, that we're unaware of, and that would change the nature of the debt. I guess what I'm saying is that we don't know enough to really reach a conclusion, and I apologise for taking so long to get to that point. But please, feel free to discuss, argue, agree, or whatever!


hellocello3200 - Sep 18, 2004 5:13 pm (#2496 of 2956)
I would like to know the same thing Vigilance. The fact that a life-debt is passed on is interesting. If a life-debt must be repayed if the opportunity arises, what would happen if you didn't save the life of someone because you didn't know they were a descendent? If the person who saved your life was still alive, could you still repay the life debt by savng their son or daughter? What would you do if someone saved your life, died and then there child grew up to be a really nasty person like LV and they were in danger of dying and you had the opportunity to save them?


haymoni - Sep 18, 2004 5:56 pm (#2497 of 2956)
In Harry's case, though, would it have to be a life debt repayment for Snape to save him from falling off his broom?

He was The Boy Who Lived, for crying out loud, and a student on top of that. Why nobody else was muttering the counter-curse is beyond me! What was Minerva doing???!!!

If Snape knew about the Prophesy at that time, then he knew he HAD to save Harry. If he didn't, then it is possible that he felt some sort of debt to James.


Solitaire - Sep 18, 2004 7:54 pm (#2498 of 2956)
Haymoni, McGonagall obviously did not realize that Quirrell was jinxing the broom, so how could she perform a counter-curse? The only one who'd figured it out at this point was Snape--who was doing his best--and he was suspected by the kids of being the would-be murderer.

Hermione figured out what was happening, and she didn't try to stop the jinx ... only the one she thought was the "jinxer."

Do we know if it is possible to stop a jinx if one doesn't know who is doing the jinxing?

Solitaire


Potions Mistress - Sep 18, 2004 10:14 pm (#2499 of 2956)
Looking at this idea of life-debts, I would imagine that there must be some sort of magical penalty if one _intentionally_ "goes bankrupt" on the life-debt--that is, they simply refuse to pay it, though opportunity (or possibly many opportunities) have been presented for repayment. I wonder if we're going to see something along these lines in the upcoming books with Wormtail and Harry. I don't think all life-debts are repaid, simply because the opportunity never presented itself. As far as Snape's life-debt to James, I think that git that Snape may be, he is still an honorable man and thus still felt indebted to James (even though James had been dead for 10 years) and so saved Harry's life as repayment. Hope this all makes sense, it's been a long day. What does everyone else think?

~pm


mooncalf - Sep 18, 2004 10:55 pm (#2500 of 2956)
Yes, I agree with your assessment of Snape; he is honorable in his own way and would not neglect a debt. His honor, slightly twisted though it may be, may also be what led him to leave the ranks of the death eaters.
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schoff - Sep 18, 2004 11:17 pm (#2501 of 2956)
Do we know if it is possible to stop a jinx if one doesn't know who is doing the jinxing?

Considering that I doubt Snape knew it was Quirrel doing the jinxing, I'd have to say yes.

Snape would have told DD if he knew. There is no way DD would have let Quirrel stay if DD knew he had jinxed Harry's broom.


Elanor - Sep 18, 2004 11:28 pm (#2502 of 2956)
Very intesting posts here, each and every one! Schoff, I agree with you about stoping the jinx. I thought, that for that kind of jinx, eye contact was essential, so maybe eye contact with the victim is the only thing essential to to try and stop it.

Hellocello, when you spoke about "The man in the Iron Mask", do you refer to the movie or Alexandre Dumas' book? It is important, because the book and the movie are VERY different (I would even say "poor Alexandre"...). BTW, thinking to other "three musketeers" similarities, I was thinking to Hagrid and Porthos... I will post it on the Hagrid thread!

Snape will surely play a few key cards Hollywand. I do agree! And I'm waiting too to read the 6th book and shout out loud "I knew it!" if Snape is associated with a crow sometime... LOL!


Solitaire - Sep 19, 2004 1:09 am (#2503 of 2956)
Schoff, I agree that Dumbledore would not have let Quirrel stay if he had known Quirrel had jinxed the broom. But what if Snape didn't tell Dumbledore?

Think back to the night AFTER the second Quidditch match--the one Snape referees. Harry follows Snape and Quirrel into the forest and overhears their conversation, in which Snape asks if Quirrel has figured out how to get past Hagrid's beast (the 3-headed dog) yet. Snape ends the conversation with this remark: "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie."

In chapter 17, when Harry discovers it was Quirrel who had tried to kill him and not Snape, Quirrel asks, "Why do you think he wanted to referee your next match? He wanted to make sure I didn't do it again." He goes on to tell Harry that Snape had suspected him back before the troll incident, which--as you know--took place before the broom-jinxing incident.

Snape knew that it was Quirrel who had tried to kill Harry and who was trying to get the Stone; Quirrel tells us this. So ... did Snape fail to tell Dumbledore what he knew and what he suspected about Quirrel? Or did Dumbledore know and simply allow things to play out?

It is very late here and my brain is foggy, but those are the only two options I see.

Solitaire


Elanor - Sep 19, 2004 1:20 am (#2504 of 2956)
Very interesting Solitaire! And those two options really give food for thought... Personnaly, I think Snape couldn't have hidden that information from DD. I think that DD did "allow things to play out" but was watching Quirrel closely after that.


El Cronista de Salem - Sep 19, 2004 1:59 am (#2505 of 2956)
Where does Snape go during the holidays? Where is his non-school house? I will love that JKR answers that.


septentrion - Sep 19, 2004 4:27 am (#2506 of 2956)
Solitaire : Snape knew that it was Quirrel who had tried to kill Harry and who was trying to get the Stone; Quirrel tells us this. So ... did Snape fail to tell Dumbledore what he knew and what he suspected about Quirrel? Or did Dumbledore know and simply allow things to play out?

I'd rather think Snape didn't tell DD about his suspicions because he had no proof. One could wonder how could DD guess nothing about Quirrel but LV was in Quirrel's head, and LV/Quirrel was very cautious not to blow out their cover. DD was fooled by the Marauders while they were (brilliant) students, so we can think he could be fooled by LV, a very talented, cunning and experienced wizard.


EbonyRebel - Sep 19, 2004 7:00 am (#2507 of 2956)
Hollywand, I've always prefered silver - it has a touch of class! Constant Vigilance, in HP the fact that blood is important has come up again and again. I think it's probable therefore that the life-debt is passed down through blood, just like Lily's life-saving love for Harry. PS, good point, Haymoni! Where was McGonagall?? Potions Mistress and Mooncalf, I completely agree (and always will!) that Snape is an honourable man in his own socially-stunted way! (So many opinions that I quite agree on! How novel for me! You've all been working very hard!)I agree there as well, septentrion, that Snape wouldn't have wanted to tell DD about his suspicions without proof - it is a massive accusation against a fellow teacher after all. Snape is painfully aware, I'm sure, that DD is showing him trust, and it is a poor way to repay it by accusing the first new teacher in the door. Also, I'm sure that Snape, in his sardonic, rather cynical way, thought that DD would be less likely to take him at his word (and his word was all Snape had at that point) when it's common knowledge that Snape wants the DADA job more than any other, and that DD is therefore likely to take any suspicion/accusation of Snape's with a grain of salt. All following me so far??

As for why Snape treats Harry so badly (I love this topic - I love making excuses for people), like I said earlier, I think that Snape is an honourable man, and I think he has proved this many times (for all you sceptics out there!). Therefore I think that the reason that he's so hard on Harry (apart from hating James - that's obvious, unfortunately) is because he realises that Harry has a lot of potential, and wants to see him realise it, for the ultimate good of the wizarding world. It could be said that Snape is following an executive plan - he's looking at the big picture, and so far Harry can't see beyond the fact that Snape's relentless quest for Harry's perfection is for his own good. Of course, this is an issue for Harry as well - overcoming his personal loathing of Snape. I think it's a mark in Snape's favour that he does seem to be trying to put his personal hatred of Harry out of the way, even though it's obviously very difficult for him. Personnally, I don't think that Snape is going the right way about bettering Harry (being cruel to be kind, so to speak) - but as Gina once said, if he did it any other way, he just wouldn't be Snape!


Ann - Sep 19, 2004 7:27 am (#2508 of 2956)
Ebony Rebel, I think you are right about Harry's treatment of Snape.

But I think a lot of the previous discussion (Why didn't Snape tell Dumbledore? Where was McGonnagal? etc.) about PS/SS is perhaps trying to make sense of things that simply don't make sense. There are a lot of inconsistencies in the first book, and I wonder whether the explanation isn't just that JKR wasn't being as careful as she is now that she knows we're all going to pick apart every sentence. For example, why protect the key to eternal life from the most brilliant wizard in a century using obstacles that can be surmounted by three first year students? Or, on a less fundamental question, why was the final Quidditch match played without a Seeker when Harry is unconscious in the hospital, while Malfoy's hyped arm injury gets Slytherin a massive delay two years later? And there are several similar inconsistencies as well. At that point, I think, JKR was mainly concerned with telling a good story. And she succeeded!


The One - Sep 19, 2004 7:33 am (#2509 of 2956)
Also remember that the styly of story changes througout the series. The first book is very much a fairy tale, while the later books get more and more "real". The first book does not really have to be concistent. The later books should..


Choices - Sep 19, 2004 7:36 am (#2510 of 2956)
Do we have any proof that Snape didn't confide his suspicions about Quirrell to Dumbledore? He may have and then again, he may not have. We just have no proof either way. Snape is one of Dumbledore's head teachers and a member of the Order, so Snape might have reported his suspicions to him and Dumbledore told him to keep a close watch on Quirrell and Harry and handle any trouble that arose. It's just all supposition since JKR hasn't told us anything concrete.


septentrion - Sep 19, 2004 8:06 am (#2511 of 2956)
What you're telling makes sense Choices, as we know that Harry, after the Quidditch match if my memory serves me well, found Snape on his way wherever he went in Hogwarts.


Solitaire - Sep 19, 2004 8:41 am (#2512 of 2956)
Ann, I think you are probably correct when you say we are "trying to make sense of things that simply don't make sense." For me, a lot of it has involved "willing suspension of disbelief."

Choices, I didn't say Snape didn't tell Dumbledore about his suspicions. I said that if he DID tell him, then we must accept that Dumbledore knew what Snape suspected and allowed things to play out the way they did. Actually, I've always suspected that DD knew what was going on anyway, even before I began to think too deeply about the matter.

Solitaire


Ann - Sep 19, 2004 8:50 am (#2513 of 2956)
Solitaire, yes, indeed, a very willing suspension. And I agree with you that Dumbledore knew. But of course, I think Dumbledore is really Ron, so I always believe that Dumbledore knows....


hellocello3200 - Sep 19, 2004 8:52 am (#2514 of 2956)
Elanor, I was refering to the novel, not the movie which I have never seen.

I belive part of the reason Snape treats Harry the way he does is that he sees potential in Harry, but thinks of him as lazy (and of course the James thing). From what we know of Snape as a student, I would guess that he was very concerned with grades, followed the rules and worked harder than Harry in school. If a teacher wanted him to practice something that was important to the fate of the WW, he would do it, unlike Harry who shrugged it off.


Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2004 11:09 am (#2515 of 2956)
Snape is painfully aware, I'm sure, that DD is showing him trust, and it is a poor way to repay it by accusing the first new teacher in the door.

I don't think Quirrell was a new teacher. I thought he'd just taken a year off. Didn't Hagrid say that he had encountered vampires and after that had changed?

Snape could have suspected Quirrell because of knowing him before and realizing that his behavior was totally out of the norm from before.

I always thought Dumbledore knew Quirrell was after the stone but wasn't totally sure why, so he let things play out to see if Quirrell would reveal himself. One of the trio said something about Dumbledore teaching them just enough to make sure they could succeed.

As for the cursed broom, we don't know that other teachers weren't muttering countercurses. We just know that Snape was muttering something, Hermione suspected him, and that she inadvertently stopped Quirrell while going after Snape.


schoff - Sep 19, 2004 11:40 am (#2516 of 2956)
Solitaire: But what if Snape didn't tell Dumbledore?

Snape did tell DD. DD: "I do believe he [Snape] worked so hard to protect you this year..." (P/SS 17 US 300) DD knew all about it.

Solitaire: Snape knew that it was Quirrel who had tried to kill Harry and who was trying to get the Stone; Quirrel tells us this.

That's not the only interpretation of the line He wanted to make sure I didn't do it again. Of course Quirrel knew who was behind the jinxing--it was him. It does not mean that Snape knew that Quirrel was the baddie. It just means Quirrel admitted to the jinxing.

There's no reason why Quirrel would refer to himself in the third person. "He wanted to make sure whoever jinxed you didn't do it again." Totally unneccessary, particularly during a climax where Quirrel and Voldemort were admitting to everything. And since Quirrel was the one who jinxed him, he just said "I" instead.


Elanor - Sep 19, 2004 11:57 am (#2517 of 2956)
Thanks for the point about "The man in the iron mask" Hellocello! BTW, I do agree with you about Snape's aims when he teaches Harry.

Schoff, this interpretation is very interesting too and very confusing! If only, some day, JKR would answer all our questions!


Solitaire - Sep 19, 2004 12:16 pm (#2518 of 2956)
The nice thing about the forum, Schoff, is that it gives us each the opportunity to express our opinions and ideas. Sometimes our interpretations are going to differ, and that should be okay, too.

I have read the conversation between Snape and Quirrel and the conversation between Harry and Quirrel very closely. I believe that my interpretation can be just as easily supported by them and has just as much merit as any other interpretation. Smile

Solitaire


LooneyLuna - Sep 19, 2004 2:49 pm (#2519 of 2956)
Just another thought on why Snape, er Professor Snape, is so hard on Harry. He forces Harry to work under extreme/intense pressure. And although Harry hates the pressure and Snape, Harry is becoming a better wizard because of it. Harry is much better at thinking under duress than any other his age.


constant vigilance - Sep 19, 2004 4:40 pm (#2520 of 2956)
Alright, not to completely alienate myself here, but I really am not as accepting of Snape's treatment of Harry as a lot of people on this forum seem to be. Yes, I can see how his method has had some positive outcome, but PLEASE! Snape is MEAN. Mean, mean, mean. And as much as Harry grows and develops as an outcome of it, he still hates Snape, and he still learns just as much from mentors who treat him humanely. Actually, he learns more. Look at the progress Harry had with Lupin as his mentor. Even Moody-Crouch was able to help Harry along with his learning process, and Moody-Crouch's motive was rather, er, negative. I know some people probably completely disagree with me on this, but I do NOT appreciate people whose hearts seem to be made of stone. There are better ways to teach a lesson than to act out of hate. Positive reinforcement is a lot more effective in the long run than abusive negative reinforcement. When Harry sees Snape after the DoM incident, he "felt a great rush of hatred beyond anything he felt toward Malfoy....Whatever Dumbledore said, he would never forgive Snape...never..." (pg 851, US hardback) Maybe Harry will be able to move on, but he certainly doesn't want to yet.

Sorry about my rant, I am just a major advocate for kindness and that is one trait Severus Snape is deeply lacking in...


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 19, 2004 5:14 pm (#2521 of 2956)
"Positive reinforcement is a lot more effective in the long run than abusive negative reinforcement."

Both kinds are effective I think. The important thing is the way JKR has choosen to tell the tale.

Just my opinion. Stoat on a stick anyone?


constant vigilance - Sep 19, 2004 5:24 pm (#2522 of 2956)
Both are indeed effective, but the impression they leave is drastically different. I just cannot view abuse in a positive light, when there are other, more positive means to achieve an end. I don't think having a teacher who is tough is altogether bad though. McGonagall is not an easy teacher; she commands the attention of her students and expects them to work to their maximum potential, but we don't hear about people leaving her class muttering about what an awful hag she is. Her teaching style is difficult, and character building, but she is not mean for the sheer pleasure of humiliating her students. She does not (as far as we know) hand out zero's just because she has a personal grudge against a student. We don't hear about Minerva sabotaging kids' work, but we do see her giving constructive criticism. Snape treats Harry, as well as Neville, Hermione, and Ron, sadistically. He takes pleasure in humiliating them, even when there is no cause for them to be humiliated. Their work is never good enough for him, because he doesn't want to admit that they are capable. Therein lies the difference.


Emiko - Sep 19, 2004 5:24 pm (#2523 of 2956)
Hehe, nice patronus, Elanor!

Now, I always thought that Snape knew it was Quirrel- I mean, what's up with the scene in the forrest, then? And, he probablly told DD too, he's a teacher, right? And he certainly doesn't seem to like Quirrel too much... But I don't think DD knew what was going to happen. Firstly, Harry could have been killed! DD wouldn't have wanted that! And in OotP, he said that he was very proud to see that Harry had managed to thward LV... I thought that meant he hadn't known it was going to happen- Harry came face to face with Voldemort before he thought he would. (can't remember the quote, though there is one). My take on the whole thing is, Snape told DD, and DD decided to let it play out- but didn't think Harry would be involved. Besides, DD probablly knew Quirrel couldn't get the Stone- the Mirror of Desire was there! (Do you think that's why it was moved?!?)


Hollywand - Sep 19, 2004 5:34 pm (#2524 of 2956)
Constant Vigilance, a lot of people who discuss Snape are with you that Snape's treatment is not beneficial for Harry. I think even Rowling agrees with that, as she has never glamorized Snape's character in interviews.

Harry does add fuel to the fire by suspecting Snape of everything under the sun, to the point where even Hermione says, "You suspect him of everything, and when have you ever been right?"

So, Rowling is offering the metaphor of the character, I believe, to show that self-serving, ambitious, bully types are out there, and one must learn to coexist with them.

I am hoping that we will see real transformations of all of the characters as Rowling explores these contradictions between personal ambition and the best interests of the whole in the forthcoming plots.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 19, 2004 5:44 pm (#2525 of 2956)
Thank you Hollywand, have a butterbeer on me!


Solitaire - Sep 19, 2004 7:33 pm (#2526 of 2956)
Snape and Harry got off to a bad start. Consider what happens at Harry's first welcoming feast, just after he has been sorted. On page 156 of PS/SS (US ed.) we read: "It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes--and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead."

WE know that it was Voldemort in the back of Quirrell's head that caused that searing of Harry's scar and that Snape looking at him at that moment was a coincidence ... but Harry didn't. From that moment, he seemed to suspect Snape. I often wonder if things might have developed differently if that coincidence had not occurred. But it did occur.

Next, we see Snape--in Harry's very first potions lesson where he can't possibly have done anything to incur Snape's wrath--in high glee as he humiliates Harry before the entire class. I ask you ... how would Harry have ever known what powdered root of asphodel and an infusion of wormwood were ... or where to find a bezoar ... or the difference between monkshood and wolfsbane?

Then Snape blames Harry for Neville's errors and takes points from Gryffindor because Harry didn't tell Neville not to add porcupine quills to his potion before removing it from the fire. That seems a bit stupid on Snape's part, considering Neville was FROM a wizarding family and might have been expected to have some knowledge of such things. But Harry! Until a few weeks before he came to Hogwarts, he had never known anything of his heritage. I think Snape is absolutely sadistic in that scene.

I was going to say that Holly and Twinkles had a point, and Harry DID learn from Snape. But I think he learned in spite of Snape's treatment of him rather than because of it. And I will go so far as to say he probably would have learned a lot more had Snape been a bit more encouraging to him. Harry seems to really respond to any kind of encouragement. I would say that Snape inhibited rather than aided his progress.

As one who has spent 19 years working with kids between the ages of 11 and 18, I have seen the damage teachers like Snape can do to kids. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Snape may be brilliant, but he is sadistic and he is a terrible teacher. I really have to agree with CV here.

Solitaire


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 19, 2004 7:47 pm (#2527 of 2956)
"But I think he learned in spite of Snape's treatment of him rather than because of it. And I will go so far as to say he probably would have learned a lot more had Snape been a bit more encouraging to him."

I agree in Harry's situation. In general terms, negative influences can have a totally positive effect too, take for example, a child of alcoholic parents who see's and swears never to be like, in spite of genetics, etc. Or the children of smokers, or the childern who have witnessed death close up and personal. In general, when the magic leaves and the real world begins.

Rose colored glasses do not a rose colored world make. I can identify with being an idealist, for I am one. I am also a realist.

What I think is the greatest thing about a work of fiction like the Potter series is the fact it bridges all aspects of this world and the one we'd like to see. Is one of the reasons it will be a classic, in my opinion.

Now, what was the topic?


Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2004 7:51 pm (#2528 of 2956)
Alright, not to completely alienate myself here, but I really am not as accepting of Snape's treatment of Harry as a lot of people on this forum seem to be. Yes, I can see how his method has had some positive outcome, but PLEASE! Snape is MEAN.

I am not accepting of Snape's treatment of Harry or the other students he's mean to, so I definitely agree with you, constant. I still think he genuinely wants Voldemort defeated, but that doesn't make him a nice person.

Nice way to phrase it, Solitaire. Teachers are in a position of power, and deliberately humiliating a student in front of others is not a good way to teach. As has been pointed out, McGonagall is quite strict, but she isn't abusive. She even tells Neville that the only thing wrong with him is his lack of confidence. Snape bullies, badgers, humiliates, and then demands respect. He's demanding what he has yet to earn.

I can still see all sorts of reasons why he is how he is, and while I do believe he would do anything in his power to help Dumbledore and the Order, it doesn't make him, as JKR said, someone you'd want to have dinner with.


Solitaire - Sep 19, 2004 7:52 pm (#2529 of 2956)
LOL Twinkles! It is easy to get off track, isn't it? I know my train of thought is frequently derailed.

Weeny Owl: Snape bullies, badgers, humiliates, and then demands respect. He's demanding what he has yet to earn.

Perfect, Weeny Owl! You have said exactly what I feel!


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 19, 2004 8:09 pm (#2530 of 2956)
"doesn't make him, as JKR said, someone you'd want to have dinner with."

one day my childern's friends (read teens), came to my house, raided my fridge, used my phone, tried to use one of my computers while I was sitting at mine. I promptly shut it down, kid yelled to one of mine, who is this person?

reply - "that is the person you mother warned you about, the one to stay away from, the boogyman".

My house emptied fast, and when they did get brave enough to come back, they had inherited manners. Negative does sometimes equal a positive, LOL.


Solitaire - Sep 19, 2004 8:22 pm (#2531 of 2956)
Twinkles, your behavior was hardly on a par with Snape's. It could be comparable to Remus's when he mentions Harry's disregard for his parents' sacrifice.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 19, 2004 8:35 pm (#2532 of 2956)
Hmm, my behavior wasn't in question, lol, and was one of my milder days.

I had a biology teacher, tenth grade, reminded me of Professor Snape, everyone HATED the man, and he treated all like Snape does, lower than flooberworms. But, do you know what? We, like Snapes students passed all our "national exams", (compare to O.W.L.S. and N.E.W.T.S.)

Negatives can still have a very postive effect :-)


Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2004 9:13 pm (#2533 of 2956)
The thing is, Twinkling, Snape doesn't treat everyone the same. He lets Draco and the Goon Squad get away with pretty much anything while he vanishes Harry's potions even if they're not that bad.

He never humiliates his Slytherins, but makes horrid comments to Hermione about her personal appearance. A teacher making fun of a student because of her teeth isn't a negative that will have a positive effect. Granted, she did get her teeth fixed, but that doesn't lessen the damage done.

He verbally abuses Neville even when Neville isn't in Potions. He made nasty comments about Neville during the Dueling Club and in the staff room before Lupin's boggart lesson. Those comments have nothing to do with being an ogre while teaching. They're simply hurtful and have nothing to do with Neville's perfomance in Potions.

Being harsh in a classroom in order to make sure students pass national exams is one thing, but personal vendettas are quite another.


Phoenix song - Sep 19, 2004 9:24 pm (#2534 of 2956)
I agree with so many points that are being made here. Snape is mean, sadistic, cruel, bullying, arrogant, vile and loathsome. I can also see that Harry does respond better to teachers that do not get their daily joys from humiliating their pupils. McGonnagal demands utmost dedication without resorting to demeaning behavior. I can surely see that Neville, at the very least, could do better with a less belligerent potions master.

However, that all being said, there is something to be said for learning to exist with those people who are (shall we delicately say) less than pleasant to be around. There is a theme of unity and tolerance weaved throughout the books, and I think that Snape is an important factor in that weave.

I can also see that there are many different types of teachers at Hogwart's. JKR has selected teachers that represent many different arch typical teachers that I have encountered.
Trelawney: for the most part ineffective; sensitive; flighty and a school "joke".
Snape: belligerent; bullying; arrogant; immature; condescending; demanding; sadistic; partial and unfair.
McGonnagal: demanding; exacting; highly effective; stern; no nonsense; approachable; brilliant.
Binns: boring; ineffectual; obsessed with his subject; distant with the pupils; does not seem to realize that his pupils are even present.
Hagrid: well-liked (for the most part); often adventurous and fun but without clear direction or plans; has flashes of brilliance at times (the unicorn foals after Grubby-Plank's teaching, the nifflers after the blow up with Madame Maxime).
Flitwick: well-liked; effective teacher yet not as stern as McGonnagal; highly approachable by the students; is prone to readily and generously giving out praise.


I think that JKR has added such a diverse mixture of teachers to remind the readers that there are all types of people in the world (and in authority) that we have to learn to live with peacefully. Since everyone is different, (and requires varied approaches to living and learning), they will respond in differing manners. The important factor is that they all have to "choose" to become united against the evil that would gladly overtake Hogwarts and the WW.

So, while I agree that Professor Snape is a horrid person, and while I can also agree that many of his students would benefit from a less humiliating teaching method, I still think that Snape teaches some very important lessons. These lessons can be as simple as: learning to deal with those that you don't like or approve of; being tolerant of those that are intolerant of you; forgiving those that have mistreated you (as Snape's hatred of the marauders hasn't profited him any); that there are more types of people in the world than just the "good" and the "bad" (there are varying degrees of both); and learning that just because a person doesn't like you it doesn't mean that they are necessarilly out to "get" you.

Barbie


rambkowalczyk - Sep 20, 2004 8:01 am (#2535 of 2956)
It's possible Snape is imitating McGonnagall but isn't doing a good job at it. I am sure when he was a teenager all the Slytherins said McGonnagall was unfair to the Slytherins. At this point true facts may not matter just opinions. Consider in OOp McGonnagall did not give the Gryffindor students any homework before the Quidditch game. It seems as though that the Slytherins had some, not enough to swamp them in work but enough to complain that McGonnagall was unfair.

I'm not trying to say she is unfair just that Snape the teenager may have misinterpreted her motives when she was strict. I'm sure when she caught James goofing off or being a bully she dealt with it effectively as anyone could have. But the problem with Snape was that McGonnagall probably like James in spite of his behavior more than the strange quirky Slytherin kid who was just as bad.

I also wonder if he realizes what he is doing--bad question he knows. I was going to argue that he may not realize he is that cruel to Neville and Harry. That perhaps he thinks he is doing tough love. and that justifies his behavior. The point I am trying to make in this ramble is he is imitating the McGonnagall as he emotional remembers her.


Lina - Sep 20, 2004 1:09 pm (#2536 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: Snape bullies, badgers, humiliates, and then demands respect.

This exactly reminds me a professor that teaches at the faculty I work at. He used to be a dean too. And I just can't help to like him as well as I like Snape. The two of them just remind me the little boys who seeked the love of their parents and didn't get it so they grew up seeking for that love and trying to get it the wrong way. I just feel the need to take them in my arms if they were smaller and sing them a lullaby. The fact is that this real professor is trying hard to humiliate everyone but he never tried to do it with me. We quarreled a lot when he tried to make me twist my priorities and especially when he tried to humiliate my co-worker (oh, I couldn't stand that) but I still like him and I believe he feels it and that is the reason why he respects me. I do agree with you that Snape is mean but I rather feel sorry for him than anger. I do think that accepting people like him disarms them most successfully.


Emiko - Sep 20, 2004 1:22 pm (#2537 of 2956)
Machiavelli (Renaissance writer, wrote The Prince and The Discourses, basically about how to run a government) says "it is much safer to be feared than loved... a prince should make himself feared in such a way that if he does not gain love, he at any rate avoids hatred." Basically fear, fear of punishment, fear of dissapointment, works well, but only in, as Machiavelli says later, "in the absence of hatred". I think off that as McGonagall's method. She demands respect, she's strict, in a sense, you could say the kids fear her. But, they don't hate her. In fact, most of them like her, even though she's not the nicest teacher. Conversly, Snape's a teacher who's feared and hated. Consequently, the kids don't work as hard, they don't care, they hate him. It just creates a bad world all around. The same could be said of a teacher who wishes to be loved- kids like them, but they're taken advantage of. Possibly Hagrid, but I don't really think there's a teacher like that at Hogwarts. But, we were talking about how the teachers apply to all different sorts of people, and it really reminded me of Machiavelli's famous book.


Solitaire - Sep 20, 2004 3:16 pm (#2538 of 2956)
I'm sorry, but I can't feel sorry for Snape. Weeny Owl nailed it. He is mean, cruel, insensitive, and he bullies. He knows it, and he doesn't care. He knows he is unfair to "selected students," too, and he doesn't care about that, either. Frankly, I think he shows blatant favoritism and blatant unfairness on purpose, to see if anyone will call him on it ... so that he can dock them yet more points. We have seen him do this.

I do NOT for one single moment believe Snape thinks he is imitating McGonagall's stern fairness. Snape is many things, but I don't think he is crazy--and he would have to be crazy to think he is behaving like McGonagall. I think Snape is what he is ... mean, cruel, nasty and RTC (rotten to the core). He likes being that way.

We all know by now that there are reasons why people act as they do. Every year, we witness sensational court cases which offer myriad reasons why defendants aren't responsible for the crimes they have committed. At some point, however, we have to accept responsibility for our own actions and quit blaming them on the abuses of our youth.

Snape has certainly reached an age and a status in society when it is time to assume responsibility for his actions and quit blaming Harry for the slights of James and Sirius. He needs to read Irregular People. James and Sirius are dead, and they aren't coming back. They're never going to give him the respect he wanted from them. It can't happen, and he needs to get over it and quit using their behavior to beat Harry over the head.

Grow up, Snape!

Solitaire


hellocello3200 - Sep 20, 2004 5:33 pm (#2539 of 2956)
I agree with Solitare. Snape needs to let go of his grudge against James and Sirius. He is being immature, the very thing about Sirius and James that he hated. While it is unfortunate that he didn't have a happy childhood, I can't think of anything much worse than Harry's cupboard existance and Harry would never act like Snape. (I have always wondered though if a child in the real world who was raised as Harry was at the Dursley's would grow up to have morals, social skills and an apptitude for learning like Harry.) As a side note, I wonder if we will get to see how Snape speaks of Sirius now that he is dead. James' death certainly didn't prevent him from bad-mouthing him.


Classicsquid592 - Sep 20, 2004 5:40 pm (#2540 of 2956)
I think that one of the reasons I don't have as much of a problem with Snape is because I am someone who can truly sympathize with the character. Snape is just like my father, I noticed this when I first read the series as did my mother. My father himself said when he read the book that out of all the other characters in the book he really only related to Snape. My father always felt that his parents despised him and kept him from pursuing any of his childhood interests. He had some events happen in his childhood nearly as humiliating as what happened to Snape. He also never really learned how to communicate with people, which I feel is one of Snape's biggest problems. He almost always comes across as angry even when he is not. I think that perhaps the hardest moment in the book for me was the pensieve scene in the fifth book when Snape automatically assumes that Harry will laugh at what he has seen. I have had this exact type of conflict with my father in the past and was waiting desperately for Harry to take what has happened in a mature way, however, I should never have expected anyone of 15 years of age to act maturely. Snape and Harry are both emotionally fifteen years old. I think that had a more mature character, such as Hermione had seen this and experienced Snape's rage they would have reacted in a completely different manner, if Harry ever tells Hermione of the incidents he witnessed in the pensieve, I think she will probably look at Snape in a whole new light. If Harry tells Ron, unfortunately, I think Ron would probably burst out laughing referring to the whole incident as "bloody brilliant" anyone who has more faith in Ron's character than me please correct me on that because I do not want to believe it. When something like what happened to Snape after his OWL happens to someone it stays with them and everything else in life becomes relative to this. Snape also, like Sirius, has come to associate Harry with James Potter back from the dead, and thus has grown to treat him accordingly. According to Snape people cannot change, people do not mature. Snape is unchanged since that event therefore Sirius, Lupin, and everyone else involved must be as well. I also believe, however, that Snape has completely turned away from Voldemort. I think that Snape is the DE that has "left [their] number forever" and the reason why will be key in the future.


Solitaire - Sep 20, 2004 5:53 pm (#2541 of 2956)
Interesting points, hellocello ...

Sometimes wonderfully well-adjusted kids come out of the weirdest, sickest environments. They become amazing people. The reverse is equally true. I've seen families who have raised several wonderful, talented, well-adjusted kids turn out one who just doesn't seem to belong to the rest. He may get into trouble at school, become involved with drugs, break the law, etc.

Regarding Sirius, I suppose Snape will feel free to hate him in peace. HOWEVER ... given the fact that Sirius was one of the few people Harry can remember loving who loved him in return--and he died right before Harry's eyes--it would be cruelty beyond belief even for Snape to pursue that issue.

It is my fervent hope that Dumbledore tells Snape to put a sock in it--so to speak--when it comes to criticizing Sirius in front of Harry. I hope we can see Snape master his feelings here and behave like an adult. However, I won't hold my breath ...

Solitaire

Edit: I agree with you on a couple of points, Squid: I agree that Snape is emotionally 15 years old, and I agree that he is the DE who has left Voldemort forever. I do not necessarily disagree with you elsewhere. I simply do not feel I can add anything, and I still feel Snape needs to get a grip. BTW, I do not think Harry would reveal that scene from the Pensieve to Ron ... or even to Hermione. He was too disturbed by it.


constant vigilance - Sep 20, 2004 6:28 pm (#2542 of 2956)
Solitaire and Weeny, thank you both for taking my little rant and expanding on it, and better articulating it. I didn't really intend to go off on poor old Snape like that, but he is just so MEAN and it really bothers me. And I don't feel sorry for him, either, because it is his choice to be a bully. We have seen several people in the Potter books who grew up under wretched conditions (like Harry, for one) and became lovely individuals. Of course different people respond in different ways to their environments, but like Solitaire said, at some point you have to take responsibility for your actions and your behaviour.

And Snape is really in no position to make such absolute judgments on people. Classicsquid592 said, "According to Snape people cannot change, people do not mature." This attitude, from a man who used to be a Death Eater and now works for Dumbledore?! In my book that's called hypocrisy. Having been given a second chance, he really ought to follow Dumbledore's example. And I am not saying that all the nice guys are necessarily better; Sirius was no more forgiving of Severus than Severus was of Sirius. But having been given a second chance, I think Snape really owes it to Harry to do the same for him. Or actually, he owes Harry a first chance, because Snape hated Harry before he even met him.


Solitaire - Sep 20, 2004 6:48 pm (#2543 of 2956)
Excellent point, CV, about the issue of hypocrisy in Snape. I just saw it as meanness, but you are absolutely correct. He of all people should be willing to admit that people can and DO change and grow. Good catch.


Hollywand - Sep 20, 2004 7:36 pm (#2544 of 2956)
A couple of thoughts I'd like to add to the bubbling cauldron:

It's very difficult for an individual to have an objective perspective about their behaviour. The idea of "right" and "fair" are relative notions. Dumbledore and McGonnagall are paragons of virtue.

Humilitating another person is clearly wrong, but it can be addicting. The person who engages in it has to think about their actions and walk away from it as a strategy. Bellatrix brings Harry down to this level of wanting to humiliate out of his own pain and rage, then taunts him to learn to enjoy it.

I do think there are individuals who have exceptional moral integrity inborn. I think of Mattie Stepanek, born with the cruelest of diseases, who radiated nothing but hope, courage, love, largesse. He was a truly awesome individual. He died this year at the age of 13 I believe, a much more extraordinary person than many adults I have met. He was a huge Harry Potter fan.

As a teacher and person who values kindness, I do find that some interpret kindness as weakness. While I try my best to encourage my students, I do get irritated with students who see this as an opportunity to take advantage of my trust. The challenge for me, then, is not to repay these unkind people with more unkindness, and not to become them by using my position as a teacher to humiliate them.

There are those that believe "rules are for fools" and I think Jo sets up the relationship with Harry and Snape to explore this issue. The Occulumency lessons are stunning because both characters enter the proposition with hatred, and emerge, grudgingly, with some compassion.

I think Albus knows exactly what he's doing by trying to bring Harry and Severus together.


Weeny Owl - Sep 20, 2004 7:51 pm (#2545 of 2956)
I don't hate Snape... far from it. I can recognize why he is the way he is, but that doesn't mean I think it's good for either him or the people he's around.

I feel such empathy with fifth-year Snape. What happened to him was horrible. It was wrong. It was nearly unforgivable... nearly.

My problem with him isn't how horrible he is in class. I can see how potions could be deadly if students didn't pay attention. I think he makes his students learn regardless of whether or not they're so inclined, and by learning, they're much more likely to survive when mixing volatile substances. Having said that, I do have a problem with how he treats Hermione and Neville. How he treats Harry I can understand somewhat, and while Hermione irritates him because of her know-it-all attitude and Neville irritates him because of the nearly constant melting of cauldrons, Snape is still an adult who should not be making personal remarks about anyone.

I think if Snape and Harry could come to terms with each other, they'd make a formidable team. Hopefully they can do that before it's too late.


Hollywand - Sep 20, 2004 8:09 pm (#2546 of 2956)
Wee Owl, I agree that Snape's behaviour toward the trio and Neville is hideous and reflects poorly on him. It's curious that he defends them in his private actions.

I think of Severus protecting Harry during the Quidditch match, I think of the trio crouching behind Snape's robes in the POA movie during the battle in the Shrieking Shack---until they then decide to knock him out!

I would love to see Hermione turn the tables on Severus, or Neville, in a hilarious Fred and George sort of moment.

Snape's devotion to Dumbledore is key to my trust in the fact that Snape will be a positive agent for Hogwarts. Since Minerva and Albus demand that Harry respect Severus, I am inclined to as well. I will be devastated if Snape betrays Dumbledore, but I am steeling myself for that possibility.


Solitaire - Sep 20, 2004 8:14 pm (#2547 of 2956)
Hollywand, I have not seen PoA the movie. The trio hiding behind Snape's robes would seem to be artistic license in the extreme. I do not remember anything remotely like that happening in the book. Did it?

Solitaire


Leila 2X4B - Sep 20, 2004 8:17 pm (#2548 of 2956)
No it did not. Solo, he was out cold at the time.

Leila


Classicsquid592 - Sep 20, 2004 8:19 pm (#2549 of 2956)
Constant Vigilance: I personally think that Snape and Sirius are both opposite sides of the same coin. Part of the reason they hated each other so much was because of many of their similarities.

Weeney Owl: I agree with you, however, Harry would have to forgive Snape. Snape would never make the first move. I believe that with the death of Sirius, Harry will reach a higher level of maturity in the next book and learn to forgive even those he despises such as Snape and Draco. This type of maturity is absolutely necessary if Harry is ever to become a wartime leader, or conjure the power to defeat Voldemort. This understanding between Harry and Snape I believe must happen for Harry to reach the maturity level required for a key figure in the upcoming war. Perhaps the Harry/Snape team will be the realization of the unity the sorting hat demands.


Hollywand - Sep 20, 2004 8:20 pm (#2550 of 2956)
It's when they are arguing back and forth before Snape gets knocked out, and it's not in the book, but it's not like the movie has not been approved by Rowling, so I think it fits with Jo's ouvre for Snape.
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Solitaire - Sep 20, 2004 8:37 pm (#2551 of 2956)
Classicsquid: I believe that with the death of Sirius, Harry will reach a higher level of maturity in the next book and learn to forgive even those he despises such as Snape and Draco.

I hope so, Classicsquid. I fear Harry's intense dislike of them both could really harden into serious hatred, unless Snape's attitude changes considerably. He is STILL the adult, and he is the one who launched the hate campaign on Harry from day one.

There are a few chances I can see that might save that "relationship," for want to a better word:

Dumbledore might be able to get Harry to "take the high road" and blow off Snape's tantrums (although I see that having about as much success as McGonagall's warnings to him about Umbridge).

Dumbledore might convince Snape that his behavior is childish and unbefitting a Professor of his stature and talent. He might also be able to impress upon Snape the fact that Harry is neither James nor Sirius, and as such does not deserve the punishments Snape has been heaping upon him for the past five years.

Harry will actually SEE Snape do something that confirms him as loyal to Dumbledore--and if it COSTS Snape something to do it, so much the better. This might change Harry's opinion.

Snape might treat Draco fairly ... that is, give him what he deserves. Harry might then see Snape as a person who can at least be trusted, if not liked.

Just some musings ...

Solitaire


Hollywand - Sep 20, 2004 8:40 pm (#2552 of 2956)
Great suggestions, Solitaire.

May I add that the arrival of Voldemort and the Death Eaters could really unify Harry and Snape against a common enemy in a fight for their lives (and spirit).

Solitare---hope to see you on the alchemy thread! ;-)


Phoenix song - Sep 20, 2004 8:46 pm (#2553 of 2956)
I think that it is important for Harry to learn that he must learn tolerance and compassion from those who have hurt him most, like Snape. The anger that Harry could rightfully feel could quickly engulf him in an all-consuming fire.

The ugly, ugly hatred that Harry has seen between Sirius and Snape should be a testament to Harry that he does not need to feed that particular emotion. Anger, vengefulness, and hatred are all powerful emotions that are not easily controlled. I think that they could be a potential death trap for Harry if he were not overly cautious to it's seductive affects. I think that the proof of the "danger in anger" could be found in Bella's tutorial. Bella taunted Harry that he needed to really feel his anger and enjoy to cause pain to use the Unforgivable Curses.

I'm not saying that Harry does not have the right to feel angry about his life and, in particular, about the treatment that he has received from Snape. It's obvious that he has every right in the world to feel this way. What I'm saying is that just because Harry has a right to be angry at Snape doesn't mean that he has an obligation to hate him.

Snape did make the decision in his life to become bitter, resentful, jealous, hateful, and angry. Harry does not need to make that same decision. Harry can choose, instead, to accept Snape for the rotten person that he is, and yet have compassion for him with regards to the events in his life that led him to make his fateful choice.

I hope that I've made some kind of sense in this matter. I really do see that Harry needs to be mature, compassionate, and forgiving towards Snape. Harry does not need to like, accept or approve of Snape or his actions. However, he does not need to begin a full-time career of hating Snape (the way that Snape hates the Maurauders).

Barbie


Solitaire - Sep 20, 2004 8:51 pm (#2554 of 2956)
Thanks, Hollywand! I love reading the Alchemy thread, but I'm not sure I have much to contribute. (I think I do better with the human nature stuff.) But I am so glad it is back up! Smile

I agree that with the war on the march, Snape and Harry will either HAVE to reach a sort of truce, or they may wind up undermining everything. Bickering comrades and infighting rarely help any cause and frequently take down an army from within (I sound like the Sorting Hat). They both need to take care of business ... and soon.

Solitaire


Classicsquid592 - Sep 20, 2004 8:59 pm (#2555 of 2956)
"hope to see you on the alchemy thread! ;-)"

Is it back then?


T Brightwater - Sep 21, 2004 4:54 am (#2556 of 2956)
I think Harry's a lot closer to feeling compassion for Snape than the other way around, even if he's furious with him at the moment. He's seen into a few of Snape's memories and he doesn't seem to have quite the capacity for holding grudges that Snape does.

When Harry is awakened by the dream about Voldemort and Frank Bryce at the beginning of GF, he's trying to think of someone to ask for advice. He's almost ashamed of feeling the need for someone like a parent, which is something that most of his friends have always taken for granted. I think Snape is somewhat the same way - in desperate need of love, but ashamed of that need and angry at himself, so he both denies it and punishes himself by making himself as unlovable as possible. In his case it's gone on so long that it seems almost impossible that he could have a change of heart - but not completely impossible.


Phoenix song - Sep 21, 2004 3:20 pm (#2557 of 2956)
T Brightwater: You make me almost cry for Snape. I feel such compassion for people who are so defensive and alone. When he puts up such difficult barriers, you can't blame those around him who have given up trying to get past them to the man that is inside. But you can still feel compassion for the man who really is an island in the midst of thousands of people.

I think that people like Snape often need loving and understanding more than other people, but they can't admit that need. They see love as a weakness. They see letting others inside of their lives as being more risky than jumping into the middle of a busy intersection.

I wonder if Snape still has the ability to modify his stance somewhat.

Barbie


Weeny Owl - Sep 21, 2004 3:25 pm (#2558 of 2956)
I'm sure he has the ability, Phoenix, but does he have the desire?

I'm not quite sure how he'll react to having Sirius gone. Two people he hated are dead, and only Lupin is left. Will he be worse than before, the same, or better? JKR has quite a few ways she can go with him, so it's anyone's guess.

As for Harry and Snape, a lot will depend on how Harry reacts to him. Would a shouting match be a catharsis or would it makes things worse than they already are?


Phoenix song - Sep 21, 2004 3:32 pm (#2559 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: You're right of course. Having the ability to change does not mean that you have the desire to do so. Perhaps Snape will realize that the hate that he has been living upon for so long has hurt him. It is a pretty hollow victory for him to be still alive (with James and Sirius dead) but be living a heartless existence.

Snape does seem to have the emotional maturity of a 15 year old. I think that we were beginning to see a more mature Harry at the end of OoP. Perhaps as Harry progresses beyond the immature spitefulness of youth we will see Snape begin to leave that stage behind as well. Only time will tell, of course.

Barbie


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 21, 2004 3:37 pm (#2560 of 2956)
"I wonder if Snape still has the ability to modify his stance somewhat."
Run for the hills, I have another idea! I agree that Snape needs a little extra attention, even if he doesn't think he wants it. I am also in agreement with most here that at some point Snape and Harry are going to have to put aside their differences and work together. I am hoping that it is not a crisis that brings this about, but planning on Dumbledore's part. I think Dumbledore needs to step in between them and make them shake hands, much the same as he did with Sirius and Snape. Then I think Dumbledore needs to take it a step further and have Snape continue to teach Harry occulmancy, with Dumbledore in attendance as moderator. I see that as a way for Dumbledore to teach both of them a little about maturity, as well as being in the best interest of the Order.
I think both of them would learn something very useful, what do ya'll think?


Classicsquid592 - Sep 21, 2004 4:08 pm (#2561 of 2956)
It probably would be a crisis (my bet is the death of Dumbledore which would have a marked impact on both characters). I still like the idea of Snape having to answer to Harry as a war-time leader but Harry having to answer to Snape as Hogwarts headmaster. I know that the prediction has already been shot down to an extent. But I truly think it would be a fascinating situation. I would love to see how the characters would react to such a situation.


Choices - Sep 21, 2004 5:13 pm (#2562 of 2956)
Three quick thoughts about Snape - Remember in POA when the kids are sleeping in the Great Hall because Sirius broke into the castle and Dumbledore enters the hall followed by Snape who asks Dumbledore to remember what he told him (Dumbledore) before Lupin arrived to take the DADA position. Dumbledore says he doesn't believe any teacher helped Sirius get in. So that shows that Snape confides his suspicions to Dumbledore.

I have been reading the "Boy Who Lived" theory in another thread and it made me think that perhaps Harry (the boy who lived) has chosen the side of good, but "they" (Dumbledore, et al) must make certain that he will remain on the good side in spite of all sorts of adversity and frustration and anger - that nothing can happen that will cause him to divert to the side of evil. Snape is assigned to help test Harry's resolve by making things as difficult and as unpleasant as possible for him.

Snape makes things extra tough for Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Neville and basically lets the Slytherins (Draco in particular) get away with murder. Maybe, just maybe, this is because Snape wants the Gryffindors to learn, even if it's the hard way, and get it right, but doesn't care whether Draco and his gang learn it or not. He knows that lives may depend on whether or not the Gryffindors know their stuff, so he forces (bullies) them to work harder.

These are just my thoughts - I may be totally off track, but wanted to throw these ideas out and see what everyone thinks.


Classicsquid592 - Sep 21, 2004 5:20 pm (#2563 of 2956)
This has probably already been mentioned multiple times. But I was reading the "Will Harry Live thread" which gave a link to a 1999 JKR interview. This part stood out to me:

There?s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape

He, um, there?s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can?t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I?m slightly stunned that you?ve said that and you?ll find out why I?m so stunned if you read Book 7. That?s all I?m going to say.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, if it has already been discussed can anyone provide a link to the part of this thread that goes into this?


Ann - Sep 21, 2004 6:08 pm (#2564 of 2956)
The link is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] . It's just above the middle of the page. There's not much context: someone has just asked if Snape is going to fall in love, and she says: "Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That?s a very horrible idea." This sounds like a bit of a cop out to me.

I'm more puzzled by what she says just before this, though: "However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I?ll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4."

Book 4 shows us there's more to Snape than meets the eye by revealing his DE past. So does that show the direction of future revelations (since she says "part of" it as if it's all one thing?

But the bit you quoted, Classicsquid, does rather sound as if Snape's going to end up sacrificing himself--for either Harry or Dumbledore or Neville, or possibly even Lupin. It occurs to me that that might be a possibility, in reference to what Weeny Owl said a few posts back:

"I'm not quite sure how he'll react to having Sirius gone. Two people he hated are dead, and only Lupin is left. Will he be worse than before, the same, or better? JKR has quite a few ways she can go with him, so it's anyone's guess."

It will difficult for Snape to transfer the whole vendetta to Lupin because Lupin is (a) a grown up in the way Snape never has been and (b) with his lycanthropy and his two best friends dead and the third turned traitor, far more vulnerable and unhappy than Snape is. Snape's adjusting to this situation, particularly if Lupin demands in a mature, non-nasty way that he treat Harry in a responsible manner might be what it takes to get Snape to grow up, too.


hellocello3200 - Sep 21, 2004 6:11 pm (#2565 of 2956)
Weeny Owl, I agree that a shouting match seems to have been brewing (Pardon the pun) for some time. I would like to see Harry tell Snape that he needs to stop treating him the way he does because of what his father did years ago.

Thanks for the quote Classicsquid. I take it to mean that Snape has turned his life around dramatically. (And perhaps will continue to do so...?) All of you who are calling for Snape to change his ways should consider that he once was alot nastier than he is now. My own little theory is that while Snape went to Hogwarts, he wasn't generally liked by the students or faculty. DD however would have given him the time of day and may have been the only one to prevent the Marauders from harassing him. (I think that the usually rigid McGonagall may have had a soft spot for James & crew and might not have done enough to stop the abuse.) While Snape did follow LV for a while, he probably felt ashamed that he was showing his thanks to DD by doing everything DD works against. I think that somehow DD got through to Snape and he switched sides trying to get approval from the person that he respects most.


Weeny Owl - Sep 21, 2004 7:16 pm (#2566 of 2956)
I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I?m slightly stunned that you?ve said that and you?ll find out why I?m so stunned if you read Book 7.

That part has always worried me a bit, but only a bit. JKR says not to think Snape too nice, but as we've discussed over and over, there's a huge difference between being nice and being on the side of good.

On the other hand, and to play devil's advocate for moment, Snape was none too happy with Dumbledore in PoA. Until the last chapter of the last book or until JKR finally reveals what side Snape is truly on, we'll never really know. He could have gotten close to Dumbledore to get revenge for what happened in the Shrieking Shack with Lupin, Sirius, and James.

I still think he's sarcastic and mean, but that's part of his charm, and I do believe he genuinely wants Voldemort defeated.

Love the pun, hellocello!


Elanor - Sep 21, 2004 10:37 pm (#2567 of 2956)
Very interesting thoughts! TBE: I do agree with your theory! I've been thinking the same since I read OotP. So, please, please, Jo: WE NEED THE HBP!


EbonyRebel - Sep 22, 2004 3:25 am (#2568 of 2956)
"They see letting others inside of their lives as being more risky than jumping into the middle of a busy intersection" - LOL! How true, Phoenix Song! Classicsquid, I agree with you when you say that Snape has never really learned to communicate properly, and I think that Snape's inability to communicate with people exacerbates his bad side - I think it makes it seem worse than he actually is. Also, I remember mentioning before in response to a post that Snape reacts to almost everything with anger, and that when Snape is angry, it usually means he's upset. However, nothing - NOTHING - excuses his treatment of Neville and Hermione. I think that Snape is treating life with defiance - "You hate me, do you? Fine! I'll hate you more!" Immature, perhaps, but he learned to deal with life this way when he was a child, and since life in the real world didn't bring him any more love than he had in school, he's kept this method of dealing with it, and never learned that life could be different, or that people have more to offer (key exception, DD, and I think it was for DD that Snape left the DE's). Unfortunately, life has also made him very bitter. Snape seems to feel that it's much better to be feared than pitied. He has a very pronounced defensive, proud streak in him. Ok, hope ye all followed this. There's not much that hasn't been said already - those 60 or so posts constituted a very comprehensive character analysis!

P.S. People, your discussions were blindingly brilliant! This thread is the best on the forum! I love it!


Her-melanie - Sep 22, 2004 2:43 pm (#2569 of 2956)
Okay, this may be kind of a long post. It follows up on an item mentioned by someone else earlier on this thread. In one of the books Harry thinks something along the lines of "Snape would sooner adopt Harry before he would (such and such)...". (Forgive the vagueness; I know someone will come along with the exact quote.) This could actually be a BIG HINT about Snape. It has been put forward that Severus Snape is an anagram for Perseus Evans. If Snape really is related to Lily, and therefore Harry, it would be possible for Harry to live with him instead of the Dursleys. This may have something to do with Harry's "shortest stay ever at the Dursley's" mentioned by JKR. If Snape has been hiding his Muggle-born status, and rejecting his family, this could be another reason he seems to hate Harry so much. Also, when Harry witnesses Snape's memory in the pensieve, Lily tells James to leave Snape alone. Maybe because Snape is family even though he hides it. Maybe she got so mad at Snape because he called her mudblood even though they are cousins or something. Also, if Snape is a vampire (BIG IF) this could be why Petunia is so petrified of the magical world and rejects it. Also, whoever mentioned Machiavelli, this is an EXCELLENT parallel, since his work, THE PRINCE, could be the key to who the half blood prince is. Maybe it is SNAPE! If he is related to Lily, then he is a HALF BLOOD! And his character definitely seems Machiavellian (it is better to be feared than loved). Sorry this is so poorly written. I couldn't wait to formulate my thoughts before posting; I was so overcome with ideas. Any thoughts?


Potions Mistress - Sep 22, 2004 4:05 pm (#2570 of 2956)
Wow, Her-melanie, that is one heck of a post. I had never thought of Snape and Lily being related. I'm not sure if I buy it yet, have to go think on it. Emiko, you brought up a great point about Machiavelli--Snape certainly seems to think that it is better to be feared than loved, but it's not very effective if you're also loathed. I'm reminded of an American political pundit who said that with parents, the mother should be loved and respected, the father should be feared. I kind of see this mentality with Snape--let the other teachers be liked, he can teach them through fear (or so he thinks). I have to agree with all who said in effect that bullying and humiliating students (and others in life) is not the way to go about trying to make students learn. Strictness is one thing (like McGongall) but what Snape does to students is outrageous. Whoever said that "Snape bullies, badgers, humiliates, and then demands respect. He's demanding what he has yet to earn," you stated that so eloquently and summed Snape up perfectly!

On a side note, I think it was Hollywand who brought up that DD was thinking ahead when he had Snape teach Harry Occlumency. Forgive if I'm wrong, I don't have my book handy right now, but I thought that DD put Harry with Snape because he was afraid that LV was "possessing" Harry (that's not the right word) and could get to him (DD). Could someone clarify that? Sorry this is so long, I haven't been here for about 3 days!

~pm


Classicsquid592 - Sep 22, 2004 4:33 pm (#2571 of 2956)
I think JKR stated somewhere that he was, in fact, a pure-blood. I think it might

Hollywand [/b]- Sep 22, 2004 4:56 pm (#2572 of 2956)
To respond to the venerable Potions Mistress, I think Dumbledore and Snape are deliberately testing Harry. As Choices mentioned about ten posts earlier, an excellent observation, that Dumbledore and Snape are testing all of the Gryffindors, and Harry in particular to be sure of their moral fiber. A trial by fire (anger), if you will.

Severus has been enraging Harry from the beginning to use his Occulency skills to look into Harry's thoughts. The metaphors are used constantly in gazes exchanged between Harry and Snape. By enraging Harry, Snape gets Harry complete focus and a good look into his thoughts. During one Occlumency lesson particularly, Rowling describes Snape as 'searching gaze for a long time, then a satisfied expression on Snape's face'. He's seeing how far he can push Harry, and what Harry will do in reaction before Harry can be entrusted with more power. This would be obvious if Dumbledore had put Snape in the Dark Arts position, but Harry's not expecting it from his Potions Master, is he?

As Choices points out, Severus may realize that he cannot prepare many of the Slytherins for the war, since their parents are Death Eaters, he can only pander to them and bide his time. The Gryffindors he must prepare to be skilled warriors. I will be very surprised if Severus is not moved into the Defense Against the Dark Arts position he so desperately desires. Perhaps he will also brew the elixir that will be the undoing of the Dark Lord.

Edit: Come to think of it, Albus is also testing Severus as he is making him wait for a very long time for something he wants, and asking him to work to help some characters he does not care for at all, like Sirius and Lupin, and perhaps Harry. Severus, so far, seems to do Albus' bidding without complaint. That Dumbledore, he's a pretty clever fellow.....


Potions Mistress - Sep 22, 2004 7:00 pm (#2573 of 2956)
Venerable? Hollywand, you flatter me! Smile I do see your point Hollywand, and I think that DD will make Harry and Snape continue to work together, though I don't think it will be in Occlumency--there's too much animosity right now. However, DD did have Harry work with Snape in the first place in part because of LV: "I believed it could not be long before Voldemort attemted to force his way into your mind...I was not eager to give him more incentives to do so...I feared the uses to which he would put you, the possibility that he might try and possess you...On those rare occassions we when we had close contact, I thought I saw a shadow of him sitr behind your eyes...I was trying, in distancing myself from you, to protect you" (Ch. 37, Am. hdbk).

So, I do think put Harry with Snape for protection purposes, but also to try to make them understand each other. I'm sure there were other members in the Order who know Occlumency/Legilmency (seems like a good Auror skill to have), but that would not serve the purpose of making Harry and Snape come to some sort of understanding (like with Sirius in PoA). Well, I'm done rambling on, hope that makes sense to everyone.

~pm


Solitaire - Sep 22, 2004 9:24 pm (#2574 of 2956)
Snape may do Dumbledore's bidding with regard to Harry "without complaint" verbally, Hollywand, but he certainly gets his revenge at being asked to do things he doesn't really want to do by tormenting Harry. He may indeed get the DADA position this time around, too--since no one in his or her right mind would want it, given the fates of his predecessors. However, Snape's inability to master his feelings about Harry is not a promising picture of how he might behave toward other students.

Given the way Snape treats people he doesn't like--and the blatant way he shows favoritism--I would find him rather a dangerous person to have in that position, and I suspect Dumbledore agrees ... or he would have been in it before now.

BTW, Her-Melanie, I have posted before on the Severus Snape-Perseus Evans possibility. I thought the name Severus might hold a clue, too ... Severus=Sever us ... an interesting anagram about cutting himself off from people or a family connection he did not wish to acknowledge. But if JKR has said he is from a pure-blood wizarding family, I guess that lets it out. What if he were related to James somewhat distantly? Sirius, perhaps? The Weasleys? Hm ... just wondering.

Solitaire


Her-melanie - Sep 23, 2004 4:44 am (#2575 of 2956)
I guess Snape could be from a pure-blood wizarding family on one side. I am rereading PoA, and the part where the boggart became Snape with Gran's clothes on made me wonder if JKR is hinting that Snape is related to Neville. If my theory is correct, and he is related to both Neville and Harry, well, Snape is meanest to them. Also, if Snape is trying to hide his family links, then perhaps he could fabricate a pure blood wizarding family to be from. We know he is good at Occlumency. I sometimes wonder if he is good enough to fool Dumbledore. I hope not. I definitely think Snape has a lot of secrets that we will find out in the next 2 books. I can't wait to see what they are.


T Brightwater - Sep 23, 2004 4:55 am (#2576 of 2956)
If Neville and Snape are both purebloods (and I think JKR did say that Snape was a pureblood, can't remember where), then they are related somehow, though not necessarily closely. They're both also related to the Malfoys, Blacks, Weasleys, Prewetts, Lestranges, Potters, Crouches, and presumably the Crabbes, Goyles, Notts, and Fudge and Umbridge as well. That means Snape is related to at least half of Harry's class, maybe more - and not being related to Hermione doesn't stop him from bullying her. He can't fault her on her potion-making (though I bet he'd love to!) so he snipes at her for her appearance and for being a know-it-all.


Solitaire - Sep 23, 2004 6:08 am (#2577 of 2956)
TB, did Sirius ever mention Snape being related to the Black family? I can't remember, and my book isn't handy to check. I was thinking perhaps he had mentioned it. Apparently, all of the pure-bloods are related if one goes sufficiently far back in the family tree. As far as Umbridge goes, I can't help it ... I still think there is a toad somewhere in her family "tree."

As far as Snape's sniping at Hermione, I am willing to bet HE was probably a bit of a know-it-all when he was her age, considering how smart he was. Sirius said he came into Hogwarts knowing more dark arts than any other kid, didn't he? I figure Snape probably had read and memorized all or most of the books before he arrived, just as Hermione did. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he saw a lot of himself (the intelligent, studious, and yes, even the know-it-all part) in Hermione. People often focus on perceived "flaws" in others that they themselves possess.

You know, given the complicated nature of the Polyjuice Potion Hermione brewed for the trio--she did say it was one of the most complicated potions--I wouldn't be a bit surprised if SHE could successfully brew the wolfsbane potion for Remus, if she could get her hands on the ingredients. She would probably actually ENJOY doing it for him, too. (I know this isn't Remus's thread, but I thought I'd toss that in for free.)

Solitaire


Choices - Sep 23, 2004 8:32 am (#2578 of 2956)
I have always had a sneaking suspicion that Snape and Lucius Malfoy are related. Their mannerisms and way of speaking are so similar. Perhaps that is why Lucius and Severus are "close" - more than just being Slytherins and Death Eaters.


rambkowalczyk - Sep 23, 2004 8:48 am (#2579 of 2956)
Maybe Dumbledore will have Harry and Snape work together not just for Harry's sake but for Snape's sake as well. Although Dumbledore may not have told Snape the contents of the first prophecy, Snape may know something of Harry through Voldemort. It may be the reason Snape hates Harry isn't just because of his father. Maybe Snape is afraid that Harry is a dark wizard like Voldemort and is trying to provoke Harry into doing something dark so he can tell Dumbledore "I told you so". Dumbledore is of course aware of Snape's fears. That's why he continually states that it is our choices that define us.

There is something compelling that would make us wish Snape was related to Harry. However my thinking is that if Snape was related to Lily Evans, then maybe Snape's blood would have been good enough to take Harry in. At the very least he should have been involved in his upbringing with the Dursleys.


Her-melanie - Sep 23, 2004 10:04 am (#2580 of 2956)
Rambk., If Snape has been hiding who his family is since he started at Hogwart's, DD might not know. If DD does know, he probably wouldn't want to force Snape into revealing something he has hidden for that long. Also, since Snape is a spy within the DE circle, it might be in everyone's best interest that Voldemort not know his relation to Harry. Though I will say that it will have to be something big that changes Snape's/Harry's relationship enough to let Snape make that big a revelation. I still think it is a possibility.


T Brightwater - Sep 23, 2004 10:28 am (#2581 of 2956)
Lily Evans was a Muggle-born. _If_ Snape is a pure-blood, (which seems more likely than not,) they are not related within at least the last three generations. JKR has said that names are important to her, but taken in context I think she means that they have to _sound_ right, not that she's considered every possible anagram of every name. (For example, Hermione's surname was originally Puckle, but later JKR decided it was too whimsical and gave her something more dignified-sounding.) Between the Latin meaning of "severus", all the s's, which give the name an appropriately snake-like hissing sound, the place-name Snape, and the snipe/snake portmanteau that would have made Lewis Carroll proud, do we really have to look any further for the reason for his name?

For now, I'm taking Sirius's word for it that all the pure-blood families are related. Sirius was defensive enough about being related to the Malfoys and Bellatrix; do you think he'd go out of his way to admit to Harry that he and Snape were, say, fourth cousins once removed?


Weeny Owl - Sep 23, 2004 10:31 am (#2582 of 2956)
Also, if Snape is trying to hide his family links, then perhaps he could fabricate a pure blood wizarding family to be from.

While the kids might not know of all connections between pure-blood families, I'm sure the adults do. I don't see how Snape could fabricate a pure-blood family name because there aren't that many pure-bloods around any more. Sirius mentioned that pure-bloods were inter-related because there weren't enough families left if you wanted your sons and daughters to marry only pure-bloods.

Snape could be a half-blood with powerful connections on the pure-blood side, but at the same time, considering Bella's extreme reaction to Harry in the Department of Mysteries, I don't see how too many Death Eaters could know Snape was a half-blood and not react in a negative way.

All of this is possible, of course, and considering Voldemort is a half-blood himself, he probably wouldn't care.

We don't know absolutely that Snape is a pure-blood. JKR said this at the Edinburgh Book Festival: Snape?s ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle born, because Muggle borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances.


Elanor - Sep 23, 2004 11:37 am (#2583 of 2956)
Some times ago, on the alchemy thread (# 132), Hollywand posted that brilliant alliteration about Snape:

"Severus Snape= "Severs the snake"/"Serves the Snake"

Will the one who was once serving the snake be able to help to sever the snake? I hope so...



hellocello3200 - Sep 23, 2004 5:52 pm (#2584 of 2956)
Solitare. I like you comparison of Snape and Hermione. While the more obvious similarities to Prof McGonagall are often mentioned, Snape and Hermione both are rule followers (Most of the time), intelligent, and are/were fixated on grades. (Perhaps out of a need to prove themselves.) I think Hermione irks Snape because she is so much like him in her ability and drive, but she is a girl and muggleborn.


Solitaire - Sep 23, 2004 8:40 pm (#2585 of 2956)
Thanks, hellocello. I agree that Hermione/McGonagall are really much more alike, especially if we take into account personality and temperament. But there are an awful lot of similarities between Snape and Hermione, and I am sure it galls him to admit it, even if it IS only to himself (assuming he does admit it). Not only is she a girl, but she is also a Muggle-born. Oh, the shame ...


rambkowalczyk - Sep 24, 2004 4:23 am (#2586 of 2956)
Her-Melanie, alot of the comments that you made did occur to me as I wrote the previous piece. If Snape was somehow related to Harry, Snape wouldn't want Voldemort to know of it. It seems to me that if Snape were related to Harry, I think it would be on his father's side. T Brightwater gave some interesting points as why JKR chose that name for our favorite character. Anagraming doesn't have to be the number one reason.

We all know that Snape hated James. Maybe the original reason was a family feud. Snapes' side being poorer may have tried to supplement their income by making potions that some people would call Dark Magic and were looked down upon by James' side of the family. It seems common knowledge that Snape and James hated each other. So Snape makes it common knowledge that he hates Harry. I'm losing my train of thought here so I'm going to stop this discussion.

I think Snape is a half blood but the ancestor muggle is at least three generations back. It kind of forgotten by the majority of the wizarding world with the exception of the Malfoys. In the Malfoy eyes, someone of Snape's heritage will never be as "good" as the Malfoys, but their presence in the Slytherin House will be tolerated and of course if they have the right attitude they are allowed to be DeathEaters. This would rule out the possibility that Snape can't be married to Malfoy's sister. He could however be married to a first cousin who might be a halfblood.


Her-melanie - Sep 24, 2004 4:56 am (#2587 of 2956)
There is definitely alot about Snape we don't know. He seems to have such a large chip on his shoulder, that I don't think it can only be the taunting he has endured seemingly his whole life (though that is pretty damaging to a person). I feel like we haven't been told nearly the whole story about Snape. I think if he is related to Harry, it is very possible that his parents had an ill-fated union: one from an old wizarding family, and one muggle-born or half-blood. The kind of criticism that could come from the old family might make life difficult to endure. I imagine them as wizard-Dursleys, or like the Black family. What was that pensieve scene in OotP when Snape is being bullied by some old woman; I don't remember exactly, but was it a grandmother? Anyway, I know this is all conjecture; my first post about this was at least based on possible clues from the book. Thanks for the response! Smile


Chemyst - Sep 24, 2004 5:02 am (#2588 of 2956)
Apart from some childhood experiences, (rejection, knowledge of hexes pre-Hogwarts, etc.) I don't think Snape's bloodline is integral to the story. In others words, I'd be flabbergasted if he turned out to be the Half-Blood Prince. His character has been constructed make him quite the loner. Other than Dumbledore's trust, Snape's motivating connections have been to institutions, (DEs, the Order, Hogwarts) not people. He is his own man. His separation (severing) from his ancestry is far more likely to be important than his connection to family tree.


Her-melanie - Sep 24, 2004 6:22 am (#2589 of 2956)
One more strange possible clue: When DD shows Harry his memory of Bertha Jorkins in the pensieve, there is a point at which Snape's face is in there and it dissolves into Harry's. DD then says, "A connection I could have made without assistance." I have read and reread this part over and over and I can't see what he is talking about UNLESS... Maybe he means that Snape and Harry share some kind of physical facial characteristic (like EYES), indicating that they are related. Or maybe DD is thinking out loud of some other connection between the two that only he is aware of. Someone please post if you have a different interpretation of that scene. Honestly ,though, I am not trying to say I firmly believe this theory, but I keep finding little clues that suggest some kind of connection. It is hard even for me to believe this theory when reading some of Snape's AWFUL behavior. He seems truly psychotic at the end of PoA. I can't wait to find out why DD trusts him so completely.


Laura B - Sep 24, 2004 7:17 am (#2590 of 2956)
Snape's ancestry probably won't be integral to the story, but I think it will have some sort of significance, or else JK would have given a straight answer when quizzed about it in August. She was asked "Is Snape a pure-blood wizard?", and she could easily have said yes if he was. Instead she sort of skirted the question. IMO I think he's a half-blood (though unlikely to be the HBP). I've been looking for the hints JK said she has laid about his ancestry, and I think there's enough convincing evidence to make him a half-blood. As for being related to Lily, I'm not convinced. This would mean that Snape is also related to Harry, and JK has firmly stated that the Dursleys are Harry's ONLY living relatives. I do wish she didn't tell us this though, it's so much fun making theories Wink


rambkowalczyk - Sep 24, 2004 7:39 am (#2591 of 2956)
This is chapter 30 in GOF and Dumbledore is explaining to Harry how the pensieve works.

and Harry sow his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly.

"It's coming back...Karkaroff's too...stronger and clearer than ever..."

"A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore sighed, "but never mind."

Then at the end of the chapter when Harry is asking if Bagman is under suspicion Dumbledore answers pretty much in the negative.

But the Pensieve seemed to be asking his question for him. Snape's face was swimming on the surface again. Dumbledore glanced down into it, and then up at Harry.

"No more has Professor Snape," he said.

These two scenes plus that quote where such and such was as likely as Snape adopting Harry can give the impression that there is something linking Harry and Snape. (Does anyone remember what such and such was)

I think the link is Voldemort. Both Harry and Snape are linked to Voldemort:Harry through his scar and Snape through the death mark on his arm. In the first Pensieve scene I believe Snape is talking about the death mark becoming more and more prominent.

It does make me wonder about this connection Dumbledore could have made with out assistance. When I first read this I assumed the connection was, Deathmark getting stronger-Voldemort is getting stronger. Maybe the connection is something else; something that Dumbledore knows that links Harry to Snape.

Chemyst, I never meant to imply that Snape was the Half-Blood Prince and you may be right that his bloodline is relatively insignificant to the story.


Weeny Owl - Sep 24, 2004 8:13 am (#2592 of 2956)
These two scenes plus that quote where such and such was as likely as Snape adopting Harry can give the impression that there is something linking Harry and Snape. (Does anyone remember what such and such was)

It was something about how them being allowed to play games or goof around in Potions was as likely as Snape adopting Harry. This was just before the Christmas break, and some of the teachers just didn't bother with trying to give lessons because everyone was so excited about the Yule Ball.

Also, it wasn't Snape's grandmother berating him. It was (allegedly) Snape's father berating his mother. The only other part of that Occlumency lesson with a female was a girl laughing at a boy trying to mount a bucking broom.

Why would Voldemort care if Snape is distantly related to Harry? If, as Sirius said, pure-bloods are all inter-related anyway, then James (being the pure-blood parent) being a cousin of Snape, Malfoy, or another Death Eater would be something common.

I agree with Chemyst. While blood is an integral part of the entire series, I don't see Snape as the Half-Blood Prince (although it is possible, of course, considering JKR's sneakiness), and I don't see his blood being important to the series as much as his actions (or lack thereof) relate to his role as a spy. Snape has an important part to play, and the only blood-related issue I can see is whether or not he believes in the prejudices of the Death Eaters. He called Lily a Mudblood, but was that a reaction to what was happening at the time or does he feel all Muggle-borns are filthy?


Her-melanie - Sep 24, 2004 8:20 am (#2593 of 2956)
The scenario in which Snape is hiding his half-blood lineage, is hiding his relation to Harry, and is hiding that his real name and identity is Perseus Evans is the one that would make it possible that he would hide his relation to Harry from Voldemort, since he is hiding it from everyone. In this scenario, he is presenting himself as more pure-blooded than he really is. Again, I'm not saying I firmly believe all this, it is more a scenario I thought of when I put some other people's theories on Snape together with clues I found in the book. It just seems like an interesting possibility to me.


Weeny Owl - Sep 24, 2004 8:36 am (#2594 of 2956)
I understand that, Her-melanie, but in such a closed society, how could it be hidden? Snape hung out with a group of people who nearly all became Death Eaters. Bella was one of them, and I can't see her letting Snape hang out with her unless she knew his background. Besides that, why would it matter if he's related to Harry or not, and why would Voldemort care? Regulus Black was related to Molly and Arthur just the same was Sirius was, and Regulus was killed because he wanted out - not because of his relatives.

The only issue Snape has that might get him hurt or killed is if he is truly on Dumbledore's side and Voldemort finds out. That is much more significant to the plot JKR has set up than who is related to whom.

Being related to someone doesn't mean there are fond feelings. After all, the Malfoys are related to the Muggle-loving Weasleys, and that certainly didn't hurt Lucius Malfoy's standing with Voldemort.

Plus, the books do state that the Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives, and while it doesn't have to mean he can't have distant cousins or such, they would be his only significant living relatives.


haymoni - Sep 24, 2004 9:05 am (#2595 of 2956)
Dumbledore could tell by other signs that Voldy was getting stronger. He didn't need to look at the "tatoo". But it is interesting that Snape went to Dumbledore about it.

I think Snape is a pure-blood. I think he knew all of those curses when he came to school because his parents used them on one another.


Her-melanie - Sep 24, 2004 9:31 am (#2596 of 2956)
Weeny Owl, Voldemort wouldn't have cared before his loss of powers, I agree. But now he might care since he is trying to figure out this Lily-blood-protection thing. And I have no idea how Snape could keep that hidden in such a closed society; but twists and turns are JKR's specialty. Maybe Snape's parents had a clandestine love affair. Maybe Snape claimed to be descended from some foreign wizarding family. Or maybe Snape just had no friends to care about who his family was, and his family kept to themselves enough that not many people really payed attention to little Perseus Evans enough to see that he was calling himself Severus Snape. Although, at times it seems to me that often the WW doesn't really pay attention to who's who. DD says not many people knew that Tom Riddle is LV. At Harry's hearing in OotP, no one knows who Arabella Figg is. If she is a squib, her parents must've been wizards, right? I agree, too, that not everything hinges on anagrams, as someone said. It is a bit too coincidental, though, that Perseus Evans is a character mentioned, and Severus Snape is an anagram of that. Also, I just think it is strange that we're on book 6 now, with knowledge that Snape was a Death Eater, suspicions of his loyalties, and NO IDEA about his background except for a few ambiguous pensieve scenes. As for Bellatrix, does she know about Voldemort's half-blood status? She has kittens when Harry brings it up in OotP. It seems to me that as long as you are up to torturing muggles, not many would question whether you were muggle-born or not. Not every slytherin can be pure blood. Can't you just see Malfoy covering it up if one of his cronies were half-blood? I don't know, I could be wrong. It still seems possible though.


Greaves - Sep 24, 2004 10:12 am (#2597 of 2956)
Why does Dumbledore trust Snape so much? What exactly did he do to gain his trust?


haymoni - Sep 24, 2004 10:20 am (#2598 of 2956)
"This cuts to the heart of the matter." Can you just hear Jo?

She says that Dumbledore has reason to trust Snape.

Will she clue us in on the reason in Book 6 or 7?


Weeny Owl - Sep 24, 2004 10:52 am (#2599 of 2956)
It is a bit too coincidental, though, that Perseus Evans is a character mentioned, and Severus Snape is an anagram of that.

Where was a character named Perseus Evans mentioned? There was Mark Evans, but JKR already dismissed that. The Lexicon doesn't mention a Perseus Evans either. The whole Perseus Evans thing seems to have come about because of the anagram of Snape's name and not the other way around.


rambkowalczyk - Sep 24, 2004 11:01 am (#2600 of 2956)
Weeny Owl, Thanks for the reference.

Certainly Snape's choices are more important that his bloodline. No argument there. It's just that there are a few tangential clues linking Harry and Snape together. It could be a metaphor though.

Her-Melanie, Are you sure Perseus Evans is a character mentioned in the books? Mark Evans, yes. I don't recollect Perseus.
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Her-melanie - Sep 24, 2004 11:10 am (#2601 of 2956)
Now that you mention it, I got that as 3rd party info. I thought I read somewhere that Perseus Evans is mentioned as someone killed by the Death Eaters. But now I don't remember actually reading that in the book myself. **Looks sheephish** .......To change subjects *wink* I know this doesn't really belong to this thread, but I am too afraid to go to the real thread. Has anyone read the archived thread "Amazing Discoveries in Books (spoiler)?" I am 50%/50% on whether I want to know anything about that. If someone has read it, tell me whether or not you regret it, please. Thanks.


haymoni - Sep 24, 2004 11:18 am (#2602 of 2956)
Her-melanie - go ahead and take a look.

You'll be fine.


Weeny Owl - Sep 24, 2004 12:24 pm (#2603 of 2956)
Certainly Snape's choices are more important that his bloodline. No argument there. It's just that there are a few tangential clues linking Harry and Snape together. It could be a metaphor though.

I certainly would not disagree with that. There are quite a few things that link them together, and blood could be one of them, of course. JKR has a way of making nearly everything seem like a hint of things to come such as what happened with Mark Evans, so with her anything is possible. I just don't feel that a blood connection would make him a target of Voldemort's since there's the issue of which side Snape is actually on.


Potions Mistress - Sep 25, 2004 7:11 pm (#2604 of 2956)
Hmmm...I don't know if Snape's lineage will play an important part in the next two books, but I do wonder if he is from Muggle parentage/relatives. He is not mentioned on the Black family tree, although I admit there could be a couple different reasons for such: a) he was "blasted" off or b) Sirius didn't want to admit being related--however, he did admit being related to Bellatrix and the Malfoys, who are worse than Snape...But, I think Harry's and Snape's most important connection is that of Voldemort--they're both "marked men," literally, and perhaps figuratively (if Snape is the DE who has left forever). My two knuts, anyway. Take them for what you will.

~pm

PS: I'm amazed--I've never seen this thread go for more than a couple of hours without a post! Busy weekend, I suppose!


Choices - Sep 26, 2004 8:43 am (#2605 of 2956)
Two comments about Snape from GOF.....I think he is definitely the one who has left Voldemort forever. Barty Crouch, Jr. (as Moody) tells Harry, "Karkaroff?" said Moody with an odd laugh. "Karkaroff fled tonight, when he felt the Dark Mark burn upon his arm. He betrayed too many faithful supporters of the Dark Lord to want to meet them....but I doubt he will get far. The Dark Lord has ways of tracking his enemies." This sounds like the coward to me - he fears reprisal from the ones he betrayed and from Voldemort, so he takes the cowards way out and runs.

And this.....Moody/Crouch, Jr. has a Foe-Glass and when Moody/Crouch,Jr. is talking to Harry, Harry sees people approaching in the Foe-Glass just before the office door is blasted down. Harry sees Dumbledore, Snape and McGonagall's faces in the Foe-Glass. Dumbledore enters the office, followed by Snape......"Snape followed him, looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." This proves that Snape is a foe of Barty Crouch, Jr. - if Snape was still a Death Eater, he would not have shown up as a foe of Barty Crouch, Jr. in the glass.


Weeny Owl - Sep 26, 2004 9:55 am (#2606 of 2956)
Karkaroff fled tonight, when he felt the Dark Mark

That is one of the reasons why I feel Karkaroff is the one who has left forever. He fled, he named names, and what I consider the most significant piece of evidence: Karkaroff renounced Voldemort before the Wizengamot; renouncing someone is basically the same as resigning from a position. Snape stayed and had to do something later that worried Dumbledore, and he's still around and still highly spoken of by Lucius Malfoy.

As for the foe glass, it doesn't prove Snape was an enemy of Crouch, Jr. It knew that there were three people outside the door who were enemies of the man within the office. Snape had no idea it was Crouch, Jr. He was surprised by that. The mirror just knew the intentions of the people outside. Even Death Eaters loyal to Voldemort might consider each other enemies since they all seem to claim to be his most loyal supporter, so there would be a lot of jealousy and in-fighting for who was the most loyal.


Solitaire - Sep 26, 2004 10:14 am (#2607 of 2956)
Could the Foe-Glass have known the real Moody was in the trunk and registered Snape as a foe to him? Just asking ... I'm sure there was a lot for the Foe-Glass to react to at that moment in time.

Weeny Owl, I just tossed out a question over on the DE thread regarding whether anyone thought mutiny within the DE ranks was even a possibility. Maybe you might want to respond over there with your thoughts, since you allude to infighting and jealousy w/in the DEs just above. I'd like to know what you think.

Solitaire


Ann - Sep 26, 2004 2:12 pm (#2608 of 2956)
Could the Foe-Glass have known the real Moody was in the trunk and registered Snape as a foe to him?

I don't think so, Solitaire, much as I know you'd like to think that! Dumbledore and McGonagall show up in the foe glass, too, and they certainly aren't enemies of the real Mad-Eye. So the glass seems to be in use by the fake Mad eye/Crouch Jr.

So I do think Snape is against Voldemort--although I also think he's the one that Voldemort says he believes has left him forever in the graveyard scene. He's just talked his way back in as a spy since then. It shouldn't be that hard to do, since Voldemort often seems to be a bit blind to the power of love & loyalty, which I think are what really ties Snape to Dumbledore.


Solitaire - Sep 26, 2004 2:43 pm (#2609 of 2956)
Ann: Voldemort often seems to be a bit blind to the power of love & loyalty, which I think are what really ties Snape to Dumbledore

Well, loyalty, anyway. I'm not too sure love ties Snape to anyone at this point. LOL Ann ... you do have me pegged about Snape, don't you? The truth is that I waffle on him. Some days I think he is 100% Dumbledore's man. Then I read something convincing by another poster and my faith in him is shaken.


schoff - Sep 26, 2004 2:58 pm (#2610 of 2956)
Her-Melanie: I thought I read somewhere that Perseus Evans is mentioned as someone killed by the Death Eaters.

You may be thinking of Evan Rosier. He was a Death Eater who was killed. He managed to take out Moody's nose before he died. (GF 30 US589)


Ann - Sep 26, 2004 2:59 pm (#2611 of 2956)
No, Solitaire, I think love is fair. Snape may not love anyone else (except Gina, of course!), but I think his attitude toward Dumbledore reflects a great deal of love--nothing unsuitable for children's fiction, of course, but the kind of love an abused and rather unlovable man might well feel toward someone who sees beyond his history and his defensiveness--someone who not only gives him a second chance, but also important and highly valued work to do (both at Hogwarts and as a spy), and continues to trust (and defend) him despite his continued unlovableness and everything else.

I am 100% sure we can trust Snape. I just wish he'd wash his hair.

Actually, I think his extreme meanness to Harry and Neville is partly an effect of his early appearance in the series. All the teachers (and many of the other characters) in PS/SS seem to begin as caricatures; this is seen through Harry's eyes, and that is the way kids see teachers: mean, wacky, dim, vain, etc. Most of them (well, maybe not Flitwick!) develop more facets as the series progresses. But Snape can't suddenly start being more considerate of Harry, or it messes up the plot. So JKR has put herself in a sort of bind.


hellocello3200 - Sep 26, 2004 4:01 pm (#2612 of 2956)
Ann I don't think that JKR has "put herself in a sort of a bind ". Snape's general nastyness along with mini problems such as girls and quidditch that Harry has to deal with make the book interesting before the pace picks up and the real problems emerge.


Weeny Owl - Sep 26, 2004 7:13 pm (#2613 of 2956)
I don't see Snape's attitude toward Dumbledore meaning love, but rather respect. Sometimes they're similar, but not always. He certainly shows his resentment of Dumbledore in PoA.

I also don't think JKR put herself in a bind. I think she intended Snape to be what he's been all along. During the Pensieve scene where James was tormenting him, Harry noticed that Snape didn't seem very popular. I think that, along with what Harry saw during Occlumency lessons, is what molded Snape into the person we meet in the first book. It isn't Harry's perception of Snape. Snape flat-out hates Harry, shows favortism to his Slytherins, and snarls at pretty much everyone. JKR said he was a great character but not one she'd like to have dinner with. It seems that he's just what she planned since the beginning.


Potions Mistress - Sep 26, 2004 8:48 pm (#2614 of 2956)
"I am 100% sure we can trust Snape. I just wish he'd wash his hair."- Ann

I completely agree on both counts, Ann! No, Snape isn't very likeable (to put it mildy) but he is loyal. As for the hair...maybe Lockhart can help him out there--hey, that rhymes!--if he ever regains his memory!! Wink

~pm


Ann - Sep 26, 2004 9:13 pm (#2615 of 2956)
To respond to your defenses of JKR--actually, I agree, she hasn't really caused any problems for herself in terms of what Snape does. I agree that that was all planned from the outset. I meant a more subtle, stylistic kind of bind. Snape does loathe Harry (as an extension of James and Sirius), but I think the cartoonish, childish way he expresses it in the first three books is a bit at odds with the more complex character he is beginning to be shown to be in the fourth and fifth (but presumably was all along). What I mean is that, to make him a consistent character, she has to show him still being rather crudely abusive, whereas his character as we are now beginning to see it would lead one to expect his attacks on Harry would be more subtle--and hence, in fact, more harmful, since Snape's obvious bias and the fact that he is clearly wrong in attributing James' arrogance and disdain to Harry make it easier for Harry to deal with Snape's attacks. But perhaps I'm seeing things that aren't there.


EbonyRebel - Sep 27, 2004 5:23 am (#2616 of 2956)
No, I don't think you are, Ann. We're seeing everything through Harry's eyes, and as he grows up Harry begins to see that everything (and everyone) are not always what they seem. Thus Snape, through Harry's eyes, begins to get more complex as a person. I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying about Snape's attacks being more harmful, but Harry will be better able to deal with them since Harry knows Snape is wrong in attributing arrogance to Harry. I was under the distinct impression that Snape's snide remarks will be much more harmful to Harry in the future, as Harry said himself that it was much easier to tell himself that Snape is wrong about his father - now, Harry knows that a lot of Snape's horrible remarks are based in fact, which will make it much more painful for Harry to endure. Harry no longer has that strong, perfect image of his father to rely on, and Snape's cruel taunts will only make this loss worse for Harry.


LooneyLuna - Sep 27, 2004 5:25 am (#2617 of 2956)
I think that hating Harry and treating him poorly is a great cover for Snape and his role as spy for the Order. Being a former DE, cruelty comes naturally to him. Snape only has to tweak his performance a bit (be a little more cruel) to appear that he is not on Harry's side. I'm not saying that Snape pretends to hate Harry - I think he truly does. Hating Harry makes it easier for Snape to be abusive to him.

Sure, Snape could be less cruel to Harry and other students, but then the death nibblers would report Snape's behaviour back to their parents who would report back to Voldemort. Plus he may be so deeply in his cover persona that he has trouble turning it off, so to speak.

I hope I made sense - toddling off to St. Mungo's now.


Solitaire - Sep 27, 2004 6:35 am (#2618 of 2956)
I suppose it is possible that Snape treats Harry badly as a cover ... but I don't really believe it. I think he treats Harry badly because he hates him--as an extension of his hatred of James and Sirius--and LIKES to treat him badly. I think it is just a bonus for Snape that treating Harry badly helps keep up his evil spy image.

I think the same general principal holds true for the rest of the Gryffindors (Ron, Hermione, Neville). He hates them and picks on them, too. In addition to the contempt he feels for them, I think they also receive the dose of contempt he would like to hurl at Draco, Crabbe and Goyle. Instead, he takes it ALL out on Harry & Co., which makes it slightly easier to show favoritism to his own house. I think he is happy to pass it off as favoritism, too. Truthfully, however, I think he just likes being mean and abusive and takes the opportunity whenever he can do it.

Solitaire


Ann - Sep 27, 2004 7:13 am (#2619 of 2956)
What I'm saying (obviously not very clearly!) is that Snape's blunt attacks on Harry, Neville and all the Gryffindors are so crudely abusive and irrational that, although they clearly bother the victims, the victims can take comfort in (a) the fact that he's just prejudiced against their house, (b) he's not someone whose opinion they care much about (except for grades), and (c) he's wrong in his assumptions about them.

Given what we've now seen of Snape's self-control and cleverness, you would think that if he really wanted to make Harry unhappy, he would have befriended him and then undercut his praise in ways that would have been much more destructive. (Example of the sort of thing I'm thinking about: "Well, yes, Harry, you are a lot like your father. And like him, well,..it was such a pity that he...but I think you may be able to overcome that. You don't really want people to think that you're stuck up, after all, particularly when your abilities are, well, adequate but not what....and that's not your fault, of course. We all are better at some things than others. And given your history, no one could expect...") That's destructive.

But instead, having marked Snape as a crudely abusive teacher in PS/SS to get the point across to 11-year-old Harry that he had an enemy, she is now in a writerly bind of sorts, because she has to maintain those crude insults and Snape constantly glaring at him with hatred because he's always done that. And it doesn't mesh well with the subtle sort of person we now see Snape to be. At least I don't think so.

Prefect Marcus [/b]- Sep 27, 2004 8:56 am (#2620 of 2956)
I do not see Snape as being very subtle. He is a bully. He despises Harry because of his father and has made no effort to cover it up, or get over it. He is also very loyal to Dumbledore. He made the mistake once of getting involved too deeply with the Death Eaters. He is not about to put his foot into that bear trap again!

And Harry is growing up and becoming more powerful and confident. The days when Snape could easily bully him are over. That was proven at the end of OoP when Harry told him he was about to curse Malfoy.

I fail to see any inconsistency in Rowling's writing. Sorry.


Weeny Owl - Sep 27, 2004 8:57 am (#2621 of 2956)
I agree with you, Solitaire, with one exception. I think Snape honestlly likes Draco. He's the only student we've seen Snape call by a first name. Right before Harry goes into Snape's Pensieve, Draco comes into the room to tell Snape that Montague has been found, and Snape addresses him by his first name instead of Mr. Malfoy or just Malfoy.

Regardless of how sublte Snape may be most of the time, he is still a Slytherin, and Slytherins like power. Being able to castigate students is part of the power he has as a professor, but it's also a way for him to get back at Gryffindors who have harmed him in the past. Part of it may be a cover, but as Solitaire said, he does like being mean and abusive.

Snape can easily lose his cool when the situation is right. He was ready to duel with Sirius over the Christmas holidays, for instance.

We don't know why Snape became a spy, but at one time he was a Death Eater, and as JKR said, we musn't think him too nice. Whatever was in him that made him become a Death Eater in the first place is still there, even if he suppresses it.

Edit: I haven't seen you in ages, Marcus. ::waving as excitedly as Hermione would:: Excellent points about good old Snape.


T Brightwater - Sep 27, 2004 10:33 am (#2622 of 2956)
Perhaps the better part of Snape's subtlety is his ability to conceal its existence? He seems to be about as subtle as a bulldozer most of the time (and he accuses Harry of lacking subtlety!) Yet, if he is an effective double agent for Dumbledore, he must be very skilful at hiding at least some of his thoughts and feelings from Voldemort.

I think that, as Barty Crouch did, Snape uses his true feelings to enhance his role, but the feelings are independent of the role, if that makes any sense.

I don't think JKR has exactly written herself into a corner, just that it will take something major to overcome the hostility between Snape and Harry - if, in fact, it ever will be overcome. (Her comments on her own website about the troll episode in PS/SS show that she has a good idea of what is required to make a change of heart convincing to the reader.) I think she's laid some groundwork for Snape and Harry to have a little more understanding about each other (they've each seen some of the other's most unpleasant memories) and for Lupin having a role as a peacemaker.


Chad Peters - Sep 27, 2004 2:03 pm (#2623 of 2956)
I've often thought that Dumbledore and Snape were related in some way. Something like snape being DD's Son-in-law. Remember, Jo did state that some of the proffs were married and this was a closely guarded secret. That would make sense in a way, as to why DD would trust him as much as he does.

I've also stopped seeing Snape as hating harry so much, and started to look at it in a different light. Happened across a little snippit in my OoP book where Snape makes a comment how harry wears his heart on his sleeve. I forget the exact wording, but after reading it six or seven times I've come to wonder if Snape doesn't ride Harry more to bring out the potential he knows that Harry has. It's the "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" type of mentality.


Potions Mistress - Sep 27, 2004 3:13 pm (#2624 of 2956)
I've always felt that Snape hates Harry because of his connection with James, et al. I have to agree with T Brightwater--Snape has all the subtlety of a bulldozer. This is not to say that Snape does not see Harry's potential, but maybe Snape hates Harry even more, knowing that the boy who is supposed to/going to save the world, for all intents and purposes, is a remanifestation of his old enemy (in his mind, anyway). I will grant to Chad that his loathing of Harry (and vice versa) might be able to be put to some good use in bringing about Harry's full potential, but I do not see that as being an integral, purposeful part of Snape's hatred.

~pm


T Brightwater - Sep 27, 2004 4:13 pm (#2625 of 2956)
Sorry, Chad and others, I really can't buy the theory that Snape's attitude towards Harry is all for the purpose of toughening him up, or even that that is its result. I think his abusiveness has done Harry quite a bit of harm and no good at all. Harry finds it almost impossible to empty his mind of emotion while Snape is doing everything he can to infuriate him and not giving him any real help in learning Occlumency.

If Snape thinks Harry needs curing of an ego problem, somebody needs to straighten him out. Harry thinks fame causes him more trouble than it's worth; it's certainly not something he goes out of his way to cultivate.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 27, 2004 4:59 pm (#2626 of 2956)
Just my 2 knuts, I don't think Snape is so much Harry's problem learning Occlumency as Harry is his own problem, although I do agree he's certainly not helping much. Consider this...

"You are trying to block your mind, aren't you?" said Hermione, looking beadily at Harry. "You are keeping going with your Occlumency?' "Of course I am", said Harry, trying to sound as though this question was insulting, but not quite meeting her eye. The truth was he was so intensely curious about what was hidden in that room full of dusty orbs, that he was quite keen for the dreams to continue." OoP Chap.30

He had the same problem with learning Expecto patronum...

"He tried to keep his mind on flying, but something else kept intruding.... Any second now, he might hear his mother again... but he shouldn't think that, or he would hear her again, and he didn't want to... or did he?" and "Terrible though it was to hear his parents last moments replayed inside his head, these were the only times Harry had heard their voices since he was a very small child. But he'd never be able to produce a proper Patronus if he half wanted to hear his parents again...."

Harry has the ability to learn magic readily, he just has mental blocks as shown in the above examples that he has to overcome. He does actually learn in spite of Snape, as evidenced by his confidence that he had passed his potions OWL.

The rotten tomatoes are in the basket on your right...aim quick! ...toddles off to another thread.


hellocello3200 - Sep 27, 2004 5:12 pm (#2627 of 2956)
I agree with TBEyes. I find myself wanting to shake Harry during OotP. While Snape might not be the best teacher for the job, as admitted by DD, Harry wasn't very cooperative. This flaw in his character makes him more believable though. I think we all can think of something in school we should have worked harder at but because it was boring, difficult or seemingly pointless we didn't apply ourselves as much as we could. I also think that Snape's aggravating Harry helps to give him practice resisting when he is emotional, but Snape might have wanted to increase the difficulty more gradually.


Weeny Owl - Sep 27, 2004 6:48 pm (#2628 of 2956)
Just my 2 knuts, I don't think Snape is so much Harry's problem learning Occlumency as Harry is his own problem, although I do agree he's certainly not helping much.

I cannot disagree with this, except I cannot totally agree with it. If Snape had begun Occlumency lessons in a different way, Harry might have learned faster and easier. Snape started out by insisting he be called "Professor" or "sir," instead of ignoring protocol for the sake of helping someone block Voldemort.

Snape had to realize that having one's mind invaded would be a difficult thing to throw off, and if he had explained what was going to happen, reassured a scared teen, and given suggestions as to how to go about clearing one's mind, Harry might have succeeded.

Snape let his personal feelings get in the way of the bigger picture. Harry did the same thing, but it was yet another situation where he was basically helpless and Snape had all the power.


Solitaire - Sep 27, 2004 6:49 pm (#2629 of 2956)
Brightwater: Perhaps the better part of Snape's subtlety is his ability to conceal its existence LOL Brightwater! I love that remark! If Snape thinks Harry needs curing of an ego problem, somebody needs to straighten him out. Harry thinks fame causes him more trouble than it's worth; it's certainly not something he goes out of his way to cultivate. I'm afraid I think this one is right on the mark, too.

Weeny Owl, I'd forgotten about Snape calling Draco by his name. That does indicate that he treats him as an actual person with some sort of worth--unlike the other kids.

I have thought at times that perhaps Snape felt toward the students rather like Dumbledore suggested Sirius thought about Kreacher--they are annoyances that must be endured. He seems fairly indifferent to their opinions of him--although maybe that is an act. But he certainly does not see them as anyone whose opinions of him are of any worth.

Solitaire


Potions Mistress - Sep 27, 2004 6:50 pm (#2630 of 2956)
Not only do I want to shake Harry, but I want to shake DD as well!! It was completely obvious from PoA that Snape's grudge against the Marauders was eating the man alive--and DD was a witness to it! And yet, because he cared for Harry (too much?), he put him with Snape instead. I think we might also assume that DD knew that Harry was not overly fond of Snape (the man's old, not blind!), and as hellocello said, we've all slacked off in classes/assignments that we thought were boring, pointless, difficult, etc, etc. (And yes, Harry could've tried harder, not denying that.) Snape and Harry both antagonize each other during those lessons and not a whole lot ends up accomplished. When (if?) Harry continues Legilimency, I certainly hope DD has the foresight to either teach Harry himself or at least be in the same room with Harry and Snape! Although, who knows, maybe Legilimency will bridge that gap...

~pm


T Brightwater - Sep 28, 2004 4:53 am (#2631 of 2956)
Good observations, Potions Mistress! Snape's grudge has become a dangerous obsession, and while it may help convince Voldemort that Snape is still on his side, it's had serious repercussions. (or should I say Sirius repercussions? I know I left those dried frog pills around here somewhere...)

I know from experience that letting go of an old resentment is difficult (having enjoyable and interesting things to think about instead is a big help) but Snape is feeding and reinforcing it rather than even trying to let go.


EbonyRebel - Sep 28, 2004 6:19 am (#2632 of 2956)
Hellocello, you said it exactly - I had the same attitude at maths as Harry does for occlumency. I INFURIATED my teachers! I remember not trying at all for the teacher who got angry at me (we had one or two serious clashes! I ended up leaving) but later, I had a teacher who was strict but encouraging (rather like McGonagall in fact) and who genuinely tryed to develop an individual rapport with her students. Consequently, I got my highest ever grade in maths - I was near the top of the class. Now to my point...I think the situation is the exact same here. Dumbledore should have seen this coming. In this case, he put too much faith in Snape, and I find this worrying. Has he done this before? Is he putting too much faith in Snape at this moment? The consequences of another lapse of judgement like this could end in another disaster. I would agree, T Brightwater, when you say that this grudge is becoming a dangerous obsession. Snape, in occlumency, is trying to teach Harry control (Weeny Owl - IMO this insistance on respect and protocol was just an effort to further Harry's ability to control himself). However, we have seen many times that Snape is often incapable of control himself. In spite of all this, I think that Snape should continue to teach Harry occlumency - but only with DD present. Occlumency, in itself, is already starting to prove useful in developing a little more understanding between these characters. In this respect, I don't think that JK is after writing herself into a corner. She's being very clever, very subtle. She's kept Snape's character fairly consistent throughout the series - he clearly does enjoy being mean, but he's not RTC. As for Draco - I don't think Snape genuinely likes him. He calls him by his first name because of habit - he is good friends with Lucius, so he's bound to know Draco on a first name basis before Draco even started school.

At the end of the day, Snape IS a bundle of contradictions, so Rowling is right about him whatever she writes. It's just in his character to be confused - he is going through a moral, emotional, and loyalties struggle at the moment. I only hope that in the end, good will triumph in his case!


TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 28, 2004 6:45 am (#2633 of 2956)
Very well put Ebony! I had brought up lessons with Dumbledore present quite a while back, the where and when escapes me. Of course, with Dumbledore seemingly able to make eye contact with Harry now he may well teach Harry himself. Although, as I stated before, I think it would be in to Harry's, Snape's, and the Order's benefit for Dumbledore to mediate.


Choices - Sep 28, 2004 8:29 am (#2634 of 2956)
Snape's calling Draco by his first name rather than just Malfoy or Mr. Malfoy, indicates to me that Snape knows the Malfoy family on more of a personal level. I have always thought there might be some blood relationship between Snape and Lucius, or it could just be that in his capacity as a spy, Snape has spent lots of time at the Malfoy's home/in their company and knows Draco from that.


Loopy Lupin - Sep 28, 2004 9:45 am (#2635 of 2956)
While Snape might not be the best teacher for the job, as admitted by DD, Harry wasn't very cooperative. -- Hellocello

When did DD admit that Snape was not the best teacher for the job? I only recall that DD explained that he did not teach Occlumency himself because of the risks involved. Perhaps this is what you mean as oppossed to Snape not really being fit to teach the subject.

As for how Snape addresses Draco, Sirius referred to Snape as Lucius Malfoy's "lap dog," so the implication is clearly that Snape has ties with the Malfoys currently. To the extent that the idea is that Snape acted as a spy in the past one would also assume that he had ties in the past as well, obviously.

Dumbledore should have seen this coming. In this case, he put too much faith in Snape, and I find this worrying. -- EbonyRebel

DD has seen quite a few things coming. But, exactly how should he have anticipated that Harry would have managed to get caught seeing Snape's worst memory in the pensieve when surely the whole point in loaning Snape the pensieve in the first place was to prevent such a thing from ever being seen by Harry?


Catherine - Sep 28, 2004 10:10 am (#2636 of 2956)
And yet, because he cared for Harry (too much?), he put him with Snape instead. --Potions Mistress

I don't see Dumbledore as having a lot of choices, here. He knows that it would be dangerous to teach Harry Occlumency himself; it could have disastrous consequences not just for Harry, but potentially for the Order.

Who else at Hogwarts was qualified to teach Harry Occlumency besides Snape? Even Lupin urged Harry to make use of the lessons because Snape is a "superb Occlumens." Dumbledore took the precaution of lending his Pensieve to Snape. That the lessons ended badly is unfortunate, but not Dumbledore's fault.


Lina - Sep 28, 2004 2:48 pm (#2637 of 2956)
At the beginning of the PS/SS, Dumbeldore says that it is better for Harry to live with the muggles because it would be to much to bare for a little kid, the popularity that he already has in the WW. At the moment that he joins Hogwarts and doesn't know that he is popular, he goes through a burst of popularity. Maybe DD choose to make that burst slighter by assigning some of professors to bring that popularity down? Who would be more suitable for that assignment but Snape?

By the passing of time and during the Oclumnency lessons, Snape might have even developed to like Harry but his pride doesn't let him to show it? And maybe he is even afraid to lose respect if he shows any feelings? I have the impression that he lives with this fear all the time...

Weeny Owl : Snape started out by insisting he be called "Professor" or "sir," instead of ignoring protocol for the sake of helping someone block Voldemort. I use to ignore this protocol in plenty of situations (not as a professor but as an adult talking to children or young people) and I end up to regret it most of the times. For example - letting a child to eat at some other place instead at the table. It usually doesn't reach the aim you thought it would. And messes up something else too.

And it seems to me that the situation seemed to be so obviously dangerous and important that he did not feel the need to explain it to Harry. Didn't it ever happen to you that something seems so obvious, simple and clear that you can't understand that it is not so clear to someone else? Like seeing the sky full of black clouds and not expecting it to rain? Could it not really infuriate him that Harry doesn't want to take the umbrella? What explanation is necessary with the sky so dark?

About Dumbeldore: it bothers me that he was not aware that Moody was not Moody until the very end. Is it possible that he is as wrong as then when it comes to Snape? We like to talk about him as if he were almost a god, but he did his mistakes in the past and it is something that just came to me recently.

EbonyRebel : I don't think that JK is after writing herself into a corner. Yes, I agree with that and I'm afraid that it is the reason we are still waiting (for the book) and only heaven knows when is the seventh book going to be released ....


Emiko - Sep 28, 2004 4:44 pm (#2638 of 2956)
Lina, I don't think that Snape was assigned to be "nasy" to Harry by Dumbledore- after all, DD knew Harry'd had a rough life so far, why would he want to make it any worse? DD admits that he cares (and cared then) about Harry, I don't think that suddenly being famous after living the life he had would make him cocky- certainly his recent accomplishments could do so, but in my thinking, and, I think, in DD's, Harry was in no need of further abuse to bring down his moral.


hellocello3200 - Sep 28, 2004 5:51 pm (#2639 of 2956)
Loopy Lupin, Pg.833 of Hardback Amercian edtion of OotP "'I trust Severus Snape,' said Dumbledore simply. "but I forgot- another old man's mistake- that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your fathr- I was wrong.'"


Weeny Owl - Sep 28, 2004 7:10 pm (#2640 of 2956)
I use to ignore this protocol in plenty of situations (not as a professor but as an adult talking to children or young people) and I end up to regret it most of the times. For example - letting a child to eat at some other place instead at the table. It usually doesn't reach the aim you thought it would. And messes up something else too.

The difference is that a child eating somewhere else isn't a matter of life and death. In most instances I would agree with Snape insisting on "Professor" or "sir," but this was a matter of much greater urgency than most. If Harry had been in Remedial Potions as was the story, I could see it, but Harry was a scared kid who had no idea what was going on, and no one would tell him. Snape could very easily have suspended protocol for a short amount of time while he answered Harry's questions, and then reverted back to protocol when the actual Occlumency lesson began. Rules are all well and good, but there are times when they have to be put aside for a greater purpose, and Harry learning to block his mind was much more important than trying to remember to address Snape in a particular manner.


Solitaire - Sep 28, 2004 7:49 pm (#2641 of 2956)
You said it all, Weeny. Besides, both Dumbledore and Snape have known Harry long enough that they--well, Dumbledore, at least--should have remembered that honestly and sincerely addressing his concerns and questions usually gets the desired results ... and then they can get on with it.

Dumbledore is usually so attuned to what the kids are thinking and feeling--and I sometimes believe he knew exactly what Harry was thinking and feeling--that I wonder why he did not just net it out to Harry. Even if he still did not answer Harry's specific questions, talking to him personally might have alleviated a lot of Harry's anxieties.

Harry really did feel far more isolated and "in the dark" in book 5, I think, largely due to Umbridge's interference. She made it nearly impossible for him to have any contact with Sirius and Lupin--contact which might have sustained him through some of the more painful difficulties with Voldemort, Snape, and Occlumency. The only bright spot was the DA, and she managed to quash that, too. She really is evil, isn't she?

Solitaire


Rosie - Sep 29, 2004 1:45 am (#2642 of 2956)
Why did Snape join the Order of the Phoenix ? was it love or hate that drove him?

We all know that Snape joined the Order a year before Voldemort was defeated, because Dumbledore said so ? but why? Why is D keeping it a secret from Harry? It some thing he thinks Harry can not take ? and why does he trust him ? despite him being ?Malfoy?s lapdog??

I can only think that Snape had (and has still) a crush on Lily. Can you imagine what that like for Snape. She was a ?mudblood? and so out of bounds as Snape would see it, so he pushed her away, rather too successfully, as she started going out with Potter and marrying him to boot! Maybe it was this which caused him to join the Death Eaters, as he would feel that he wanted her dead. However, when it became event that her life was in danger, he joined the Order in an attempt to save her. Maybe he found out that she had a child end of July, making her one of the parents of the likely Prophecised child.

However, the other reason may be that he found out that one of Potters friends had joined the DE and did not want to be in the same ?gang? as them! But then why would D trust him?


EbonyRebel - Sep 29, 2004 2:39 am (#2643 of 2956)
"He found out that one of Potter's friends had joined the DE and did not want to be in the same gang as them!" LOL Rosie! Do you know, that might be true.....

As for why Snape joined the Order, it mightn't necessarily have been love or hate. There are other things that motivate people to act in certain ways or to renounce beliefs or ways of life, although obviously it would have to have been something big. I would suggest honour. The life debt he owed James always seemed a likely reason.

I notice that many people are quoting Sirius here, describing Snape as "Malfoy's lapdog", so I would like to mention an excellent point made on the Sirius thread (sorry, I can't remember who's it was, but kudos to you!). This person stated that when Sirius is angry, or feeling emotion for whatever reason, he tends to talk in "hyperbole" - basically, he exaggerates things. I thought it was an excellent point, and applicable here, because I don't believe that Snape is anyone's "lapdog", not even DD's - he has too much pride, and he doesn't seem to crave affection or esteem either, so it simply would not be in Snape's nature to follow someone around loyally, hanging on their every word and whim.

Weeny, about that protocol...I see what you're saying about abandoning protocol during explanations, only to enforce it later during the actual lesson, but I think that that would be working to a double standard - Snape can't insist upon respect one minute and ignore its absence another minute. It would make it more confusing for Harry as well. Also, I said before that I think Snape was right to ask Harry to follow this protocol - showing a bit of respect by merely calling your teacher "sir" is not a lot to ask; also, more importantly, Snape is trying to teach Harry control - asking him to follow protocol is a very acceptable way of asking him to control his temper, increase concentration and self awareness, and also to be a little patient when Snape was trying to answer Harry's questions. And that brings me to your point Solitaire - the fact is, Snape DID try to answer Harry's questions. Obviously, he's not a very patient man himself, so I can see why Harry may have felt hard done by, but Snape did seem to answer Harry as fully as DD would have allowed. No doubt DD gave Snape strict guidelines on exactly how much he should say. There really is no way DD could have explained this to Harry - we saw that the very few, very brief moments of contact Harry had with him, Harry immediately felt that "dominant snake" rise up in him - obviously, whenever Harry is near DD, Voldemort is there too. Therefore, since DD is an invitation to LV to rear his ugly head, it probably would have been impossible for DD to speak to Harry about Occlumency "privately" so to speak. But I'm after wandering off Snape...

Just to clarify one thing (and then I'll finish this post, I promise), when I said that "DD should have seen this coming" I did not mean that he should have foreseen the Pensieve incident, but rather, he should have realised that it would be impossible for Snape to teach Harry objectively and without prejudice, and that therefore Harry will not learn properly. DD should have seen a fight coming - ironically, they both came out of Occlumency with a bit of compassion for each other, but I don't think DD planned that either. In the end, DD should have seen that there was going to be a fight, or at least a huge misunderstanding between Harry and Snape - they're both so naturally antagonistic.


T Brightwater - Sep 29, 2004 4:54 am (#2644 of 2956)
Rosie, I've suggested before that one possbile motivation for Snape leaving the DEs was that one of them hurt and humiliated him worse than the Marauders did. I was convinced (like many people!) that Snape had had a crush on Lily, but after the revelation in the Pensieve, I think it less likely. (That could, of course, be JKR deliberately throwing us off the track!)

It's possible Snape was attracted to his opposite, but it's also possible he was attracted to someone who was what he wanted to be, and more - a pureblood, fascinated by the Dark Arts, and also beautiful and cool. Someone we know was a DE, and someone we know is naturally cruel and proud. If unrequited attraction had anything at all to do with Snape's leaving the DEs, who more likely than Bellatrix Black Lestrange? Can you imagine her reaction to a greasy-haired, socially inept geek having a crush on her? Can you imagine her playing with him for her own amusement and then letting him down hard? It sounds plausible to me, anyway.


Chemyst - Sep 29, 2004 4:56 am (#2645 of 2956)
Why did Snape join the Order of the Phoenix ? was it love or hate that drove him? - Rosie Hmm... Hate does not make a lot of sense and we haven't seen much evidence that Snape knows how to accept love, (Gina excepted). Necessity might be the reason. He has a symbiotic relationship with The Order. It's to their mutual advantage to have someone with Snape's unique strengths, skills and contacts. For his part, he receives respect, at least a modicom of acceptance, and all the protection Hogwarts and DD can offer.


rambkowalczyk - Sep 29, 2004 5:57 am (#2646 of 2956)
I tend to think his reason for joining Voldemort and subsequently the Order are the same. He was looking for respect. I think for a while being a deatheater gave him that. But as time went on he began to realize it was an illusion and began to regret his decision.

He may have also decided that Voldemort was going to far in his quest for immortality. Perhaps there was too many random killings of purebloods. Maybe he had a change of heart as to what kind of respect he wanted. Maybe he didn't want to go down in history as the deatheater who killed innocent purebloods.

His life debt to James may have been a factor not to join the order, since he was already working for Dumbledore long before Voldemort's fall, but to tell Dumbledore that the Potters were on Voldemort's hit list. Snape could have claimed ignorance of Voldemort's plan to kill James' family and Dumbledore may not have been any of the wiser.

I don't think Snape knew Peter Pettigrew was a deatheater until the end of book 3.


haymoni - Sep 29, 2004 7:30 am (#2647 of 2956)
I wonder if Peter was actually a DE - did he have the tattoo?

He was willing to sell his friends down the river. Sirius said that the DEs in Azkaban blamed Peter for Voldy's downfall.

They knew Peter, but was he in the inner circle? I wonder if Snape would have believed the POA story if he had known what Peter had done.


LooneyLuna - Sep 29, 2004 7:44 am (#2648 of 2956)
Yes, Peter has the Dark Mark. Voldemort presses it after his rebirth to summon the other DEs. I don't think Snape knew that Peter was a DE until the rebirth of Voldemort.


Choices - Sep 29, 2004 8:57 am (#2649 of 2956)
As to Snape insisting that Harry address him as "Professor" or "Sir", it seemed to me to be a way of establishing discipline. Occlumency demands a great deal of discipline from the person trying to learn how to do it well and to me, it was Snape's way of getting Harry into that frame of mind....saying to him, be respectful and disciplined and start by calling me "Professor". Sort of a military attitude. Harry must acknowledge that Snape is the leader/teacher and be prepared to do what he says in order to learn Occlumency.


Weeny Owl - Sep 29, 2004 9:20 am (#2650 of 2956)
We all know that Snape joined the Order a year before Voldemort was defeated, because Dumbledore said so

I don't remember Dumbledore saying Snape joined the Order a year before Voldemort was defeated. He said (Pensieve scene in GoF) before the Wizengamot that Snape had turned spy and rejoined their side, but he didn't say when that happened.

showing a bit of respect by merely calling your teacher "sir" is not a lot to ask; also, more importantly, Snape is trying to teach Harry control - asking him to follow protocol is a very acceptable way of asking him to control his temper, increase concentration and self awareness, and also to be a little patient when Snape was trying to answer Harry's questions.

When Harry first entered the classroom and said, "Right," I can see Snape mentioning that Harry needed to stick to protocol since it was still a lesson. I cannot see the need for him to keep harping on it when it was obvious Harry was nervous and scared about what was happening to him. Harry wasn't being disrespectful when he was asking questions. If Snape had gently answered the questions and only insisted on protocol if Harry had become disrespectful, it would have seemed much less scary. He had a teacher he knew hated him delving into his mind.

As to Snape insisting that Harry address him as "Professor" or "Sir", it seemed to me to be a way of establishing discipline.

Under normal circumstances I could see that. If Ron, for instance, were to have to take Occlumency lessons from Snape, I would wholeheartedly agree with following protocol. Harry's situation was different, though, in that Voldemort could enter Harry's mind from a distance. In fact, Snape even mentions that the usual rules don't seem to apply to Harry's situation. The same standards can't be applied when the situation itself is out of the norm. Snape should have realized that since he's the one who brought it up.

Snape went about the whole thing the wrong way. He should have gently answered any questions Harry had and then gone about the actual teaching process. He never gave Harry any suggestions as to HOW to empty his mind... he just insisted that Harry had to do it, and to remember while his mind was being invaded that it was necessary to call a teacher "sir" or "Professor."

I understand the need for Harry to discipline himself, but Snape was concentrating too much on things that weren't significant, when the actual need was for Harry to learn.
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Post  Mona on Mon May 23, 2011 11:55 pm

popkin - Sep 29, 2004 9:26 am (#2651 of 2956)
Edited by Sep 29, 2004 10:28 am
Higher up in this thread, someone was discussing Snape's ambition. Being a Slytherin, the poster wrote, Snape is highly motivated to obtain power. I wonder why he has subjugated himself to Dumbledore. Is he waiting for the position of Headmaster to open up so he can step in? Do you think it will happen before the end of the series? Will he be a worse headmaster than Phineus Nigellus (the worst headmaster ever to serve at Hogwarts)? How will his relationship with Harry change if he is to get the postition?

In another thread, Phoenix Song was talking about Neville's gran having this vulture on top of her head and wondering what that might imply. Since it is on her head, is she being controlled by a vulture of some type (someone who preys on carion - like a DE). I got to wondering is there some correlation between Neville's gran and Snape, since he (or his boggart) donned her clothes in POA.

Forgive me for wrenching your necks by changing subjects too quickly.


Weeny Owl - Sep 29, 2004 9:33 am (#2652 of 2956)
Hi, popkin

I don't think Snape will be the Headmaster while Harry is still in school, but I do think Dumbledore will die and Snape will be Deputy Headmaster.

As for any correlation between Snape and Neville's gran... with JKR there's always a possibilty.


Choices - Sep 29, 2004 9:39 am (#2653 of 2956)
Snape only had on the grandmother's clothes because that is how Neville dealt with his Boggart.

I have often wondered about the vulture on her hat - a vulture is definitely a "death eater" and since Neville was obviously put under a powerful Memory Charm to errase what he witnessed while his parents were being tortured into insanity, could Gran have been hexed or put under some sort of curse (Imperio, perhaps?) and made to join the DE's and the vulture is a hint from JKR about this. Something is going on with that vulture for sure, I'm just not sure exactly what.


Catherine - Sep 29, 2004 9:42 am (#2654 of 2956)
Popkin wrote, "Will he be a worse headmaster than Phineus Nigellus (the worst headmaster ever to serve at Hogwarts)? How will his relationship with Harry change if he is to get the postition?

I don't know that Phineas Nigellus was the worst headmaster, but he was the "least popular," according to Sirius. Interesting question, Popkin, about Snape's aptitude for school leadership. I can see that Snape would be a difficult man to work with, and work for. He has extremely high standards, and he has a high need for respect. My one big concern about Snape's ability to be headmaster is his partiality toward Slytherin students, and his sarcasm to students whom he dislikes.

I got to wondering is there some correlation between Neville's gran and Snape, since he (or his boggart) donned her clothes in POA. --Popkin

Interesting, Phoenix Song and Popkin. I always wondered if the vulture was to show us that Snape had been a Death Eater, or that he was a "Death Eater in disguise." Snape's demeanor also reminds me of a vulture. He has an unpleasant personal appearance, a hooked nose, and he performs useful, but "dirty" work for the Order and as a Potions Master.


popkin - Sep 29, 2004 9:43 am (#2655 of 2956)
Edited by Sep 29, 2004 10:49 am
Even though it was funny, and part of Neville's Ridikulus training, Snape ended up in a vulture hat twice in that book. Once, at Neville's command, and once at the Christmas dinner. I do think that there was some kind of hinting going on. Perhaps JKR was just trying to tell us that Snape was, at least at one time, a Death Eater.

EDIT: We posted at the same time, with the same thought, Catherine.

One of the reasons I thought that Snape might become headmaster, instead of an assistant, was that in OotP both McGonnagal and Dumbledore appeared old and weak at times. McGonnagal pledged to get Harry into auror training or die trying (or something to that effect), and she was incapacitated by four stunners to the heart - a blow which may have permanently damaged her health. She is now walking with a cane. It seems like JKR is setting us up to be able to accept both McGonnagal's and Dumbledore's deaths before the end of the series. If that were to happen, I think Snape would be next in line for the position.


Abracapocus - Sep 29, 2004 10:31 am (#2656 of 2956)
Yet another point of view on the topic of Snape teaching Harry Occlumency:

I believe that with the very nature of learning Occlumency ? the potential it has for bringing up past experiences that dredge up emotional issues ? one would certainly hope for a teacher with a certain amount of objectivity and sensitivity like Lupin.

Snape isn?t a nice person in general and he specifically doesn?t like Harry. I can?t imagine Snape having the personal strength to change his natural behavior in order to teach Harry Occlumency. I also think his treatment of Harry had nothing to do with teaching Harry discipline for Harry?s benefit, but had more to do with Snape?s need for superiority. I have never seen anything remotely close to altruistic behavior in Snape. He is a true Slytherin.

While I do believe that he did the very best he could to teach Harry, for all the Occlumency skill he possesses, his teaching methods were not effective. Perhaps a less skilled Occlumens with different methods would have had more success.


Catherine - Sep 29, 2004 11:02 am (#2657 of 2956)
While I do believe that he did the very best he could to teach Harry, for all the Occlumency skill he possesses, his teaching methods were not effective. Perhaps a less skilled Occlumens with different methods would have had more success. --Abracapocus

That is possibly true, except that I think it was important that a member of the Order teach Harry. Dumbledore could not risk Harry's connection with Voldemort being made public, especially after Rita Skeeter's article that Harry was deluded and dangerous in GoF.

Lupin would probably not have been allowed at Hogwarts, given Dolores Umbridge's reign as High Inquisitor. We don't know if McGonagall possess the ability to teach Occlumency, and we don't know if Sprout and Flitwick are actually in the Order.

I think Snape was probably the only one available to do it.


Elanor - Sep 29, 2004 11:05 am (#2658 of 2956)
What is truly amazing about Snape is that there is always several ways of "reading" his attitude. For example, concerning the Occlumency lessons and the fact that he wanted Harry to call him "Sir".

When I read that chapter, I always think that he wanted to keep his distance from Harry thanks to words (Sir or Professor) because he knew what he would find in Harry's memories and he was afraid of that (Cedric's death, Voldemort's rebirth...). But I agree he may have enjoyed that position of strengh too.


Lina - Sep 29, 2004 1:11 pm (#2659 of 2956)
Maybe I could have expressed myself better if english was my first language, but it isn't and it was quite late last night when I was posting. Thank you, EbonyRebel for explaining the need of protocol for me. If my memory is correct, even Dumbeldore corrected Harry at least once.

I really think that Snape didn't make too many mistakes during the Oclumnency lessons (I'm not talking about Potions) and the bigger mistake was done by DD who didn't ask, for example professor McGonnagall to prepare Harry for this lessons. I think she would be the best for that job, but she was not around almost at all. As a matter of fact, when DD came to the hearing about dementors and didn't look Harry in the eyes, even though he testified in Harry's favor, Harry thought that he is angry about him. Couldn't he ask someone from the order to explain to Harry why so? I'm sure that Harry would have taken the Snape's lessons much more seriously that way. No, but he chooses to keep Harry in ignorance! Yet, if he hadn't done these mistakes, the OotP would have been much less interesting, wouldn't it?

Rosie : We all know that Snape joined the Order a year before Voldemort was defeated, because Dumbeldore said so ? but why? Why is D keeping it a secret from Harry? Yes, why is DD keeping so many secrets and thinks that he is the only one who knows the best time to tell them? As a matter of fact, he is always forced to tell them and always tells them too late!!!! He is such a calm, forgiving and warm person, but he is not as perfect at all as we are trying to see him! He is vain. He is the one Know-it-all and he seems not to like anybody else to know a tenth of his knowledge!

I think that falling in love or being humiliated are just to simple reasons for Snape to change sides. It is a children literature, or possibly teenage literature - the latter books. A possible scenario, as I see it, would be: Snape's mother was a half-blood and father was a pure-blood and as they were young they thought it doesn't matter, but as the time passed, maybe when he was drunk, the father started to humiliate the mother. So Snape grew up persuaded that the half-bloods and muggleborns should be humiliated because they are worth less. So he joined the DEs. Then he lost his mother, probably because she was killed by a DE or by the father himself, and at that moment he found out how much she ment to him?

The other possible scenario is that he was badly wounded and he came to DD to ask him for help, maybe a phoenix help? And at that moment DD put the charm on him that would make him suffer very much if he ever becomes a DE again - I just can't see what else could make DD so sure.

For a person who lives in so many fears as he does, it is just impossible to be as pleasant as most of you expect a teacher to be. I agree that in that case he just shouldn't be a teacher, but it might have not been his choice. It might have been another Dumbeldore's mistake - the way to keep him close!

I hope you will be able to forgive me such a long post.


T Brightwater - Sep 29, 2004 2:37 pm (#2660 of 2956)
"He is such a calm, forgiving and warm person, but he is not as perfect at all as we are trying to see him! He is vain. He is the one Know-it-all and he seems not to like anybody else to know a tenth of his knowledge!"

I see what you mean, Lina, but I don't think it's vanity on DD's part. I think he doesn't want to burden other people with what he thinks of as his responsibility. I think Sirius's death has taught him that he can't carry the whole burden and make all the decisions himself. We've been discussing this on the Remus Lupin thread as well.

Your theory about a conflict between Snape's parents makes a lot of sense. That probably started him in the wrong direction, and then being in Slytherin reinforced it.

It hadn't occurred to me that DD might have put some sort of charm on Snape - it seems too much like interfering with another person's choices, which DD would be reluctant to do, I think. However, I can easily believe that Dumbledore helped Snape or even saved his life - and that DD promised he wouldn't tell anyone. Also, if Snape is a double agent for DD, the fewer people who know about any connection or life-debt between them, the better.

It's interesting that you mentioned the phoenix. Fawkes recognizes and responds to loyalty to Dumbledore - did he perhaps go to Snape on some occasion and help him as he did Harry, and thus confirm DD's feeling that Snape was trustworthy?


Ann - Sep 29, 2004 2:43 pm (#2661 of 2956)
Lina, interesting ideas--though I don't think DD would put a spell on anyone to cause them pain if they went against him. It just doesn't seem to be his style. But I think you are quite correct about DD's having flaws: he is not perfect, and he does make mistakes, though he's doing the best he can. It must be hard having all those people assuming he'll be able to make everything right in all situations when he can't.

As for the Occlumency lessons, I think one thing that's been overlooked in this very interesting discussion is their adversarial nature. Harry is trying to learn to fend off an attack. To give him practice, Snape has to attack him. It is no doubt very difficult for Snape to have, essentially, a license to attack Harry in this one way, and then to stop. It must require a tremendous degree of self control, given his resentment of Harry as a stand in for James. (Not that I'm excusing it, of course; but one can see where his resentment and anger come from.)


rambkowalczyk - Sep 29, 2004 2:47 pm (#2662 of 2956)
Lina, interesting idea about Snape's parents.

I also don't have any harsh criticisms for Snape with regard to Occlumency. Alot of people think he should have told Harry how to clear his mind. But when Lupin was teaching Harry about Patronuses, all he said was think happy thoughts, come up with a better one. If Snape were teaching patronuses he would have said the same thing. Please realize I agree Lupin is nicer and more encouraging, but both are giving Harry the same set of facts.


hellocello3200 - Sep 29, 2004 5:06 pm (#2663 of 2956)
As a response to the disscusstion about Snape possibly becoming Headmaster: I doubt that JKR would end the last book with " After the death of Professor McGonagall, Snape became headmaster, and they all lived happily ever after, except for those unfortunate enough to attend hogwarts during the next couple of decades." I think that he may get a brief fling with it as he did in PoA for some reason though.


Choices - Sep 29, 2004 5:20 pm (#2664 of 2956)
Well, Harry has finished his 5th year and hopefully there will be no need for a new headmaster until at least the start of book 7. I am hoping it is McGonagall, but if it should be Snape, then Harry would only have to endure one year under Snape's headmastership (is that a word?? LOL) All I can say is, "Long live Dumbledore." **raises glass in salute**


Hollywand - Sep 29, 2004 5:50 pm (#2665 of 2956)
Agreed, Choices! A toast to the long, long life of Albus Dumbledore!


**************** I am intrigued by two references to Severus appearing with a vulture hat on. I believe this may be a clue that he will turn out to be our dark phoenix, the Aurgury, the Irish Phoenix described in the Beastiary on the Lex, looking like a vulture, but black and green. Severus color scheme to be sure. His patronus will be horrifying at first, and turn out to be redemptive.

Further, in Egyptian mythology, the vulture, especially in hat form, is associated with the guardian Mekbet, who is the ally of Wedjat, the cobra. I would not be surprised if Severus can become an animagus cobra.

In Egyptian mythology, Mekbet transforms during battle completely into a vulture to protect the young. Striking image.

****************** On the remarks about Severus becoming a Death Eater spy, and joining the order---this actually poses a counterpoint to Wormtail, the Order Member who becomes a spy and becomes a Death Eater....Perhaps there is some oddly entwined fate between Severus and Wormtail that has yet to reveal itself....

**************************** As much as I adore Harry, I think he exacerbates his own problems toward Snape. Harry has been disrespectul toward Severus from the beginning, and has continued to be angry, suspicious and unforgiving toward Severus, even when it has been revealed to him that Severus is trying to protect him. Both Minerva and Albus have admonished Harry to be more respectful, and he ignores this advice from his trusted mentors.

Imagine if you were on the faculty at a school with three young whippersnappers out of bed sneaking around all the time, accusing you of comitting some crime....I'm not sure I wouldn't be exasperated and frustrated with them!


ShelterGirl - Sep 29, 2004 6:21 pm (#2666 of 2956)
Both Minerva and Albus have admonished Harry to be more respectful,

EVERYBODY does that, even Molly. I've always wondered about it, because no one does that when Harry refers to Remus simply as Lupin. Cone to think of it, Lupin admonished him too.

And Abracapocus, if you're reading this..."Newport News!"


Solitaire - Sep 29, 2004 8:03 pm (#2667 of 2956)
First of all, I hate the idea of Snape becoming Headmaster ... ever! In fact, I am hoping that once the War is over, Snape goes somewhere else and does something else. Surely there are other jobs for which he would be better fitted. I can't think of any offhand, but I'll work on it. I have always believed that Dumbledore provided Snape with a job and a home, more or less to keep him safe from any revenge.

Second, Hollywand, I like your idea of Snape and Wormtail being a sort of counter point. That possibility sounds very intriguing.

As to why Snape left the DEs, a lot of fascinating theories have been floated. A more mundane reason might simply be that he discovers Voldemort is just as willing to kill his followers as he is his enemies, if it suits his ends. That would certainly provide a strong incentive to beat a hasty retreat--especially if our particular DE is beginning to feel that Voldemort's "noble goals" are becoming a lot more bloodthirsty and a lot less "noble" than they once seemed.

About Harry's antagonistic relationship with Snape--and Draco, for that matter ... Snape and Draco remind me an awful lot of magical versions of Uncle Vernon and Dudley. Both of them are mean and snotty, just like their Muggle counterparts in Harry's life. Well, that's how I see them.

Then, too, Snape hates Harry because he reminds him of James and Sirius. Harry hates Snape (more now than originally) because has been "bequeathed" that hatred by Sirius and James; it is a sort of "legacy." To cease hating Snape would almost be like dishonoring the memories of Sirius and James ... Does that make any sense? Sorry, it's late.

I had a definite idea where I was going when I started this post ... but since my train of thought has been derailed, I think I'll quit while I'm only slightly off-track.

Solitaire


Aurian - Sep 30, 2004 1:08 am (#2668 of 2956)
Hi everyone, first post here! I'm inclined to agree with Solataire on the matter of Snape becoming head-master. I don't think he'd be that suitable at all. His people skills are kind of....well, under-developed really!! Hogwarts would be much less fun if "Headmaster" Snape was ruling the roost! Hollywand, I can see where you're coming from when you say Harry exacerbates his own problems toward Snape - but I have to say that it was Snape who sparked the conflict when he humiliated the 11 year old Harry in front of his new class on his first day of school. Shows his inability to move on despite the fact that his arch-rival had been dead for over 10 years.


Her-melanie - Sep 30, 2004 4:33 am (#2669 of 2956)
Welcome to the lexicon, Aurian! I agree with you about Snape being very responsible for his and Harry's terrible relationship. Harry's attitude is at least understandable given his adolescence; Snape is supposed to be an adult, and he certainly does NOT act like one. I agree that he would be a terrible Headmaster. He is too immature and partial. Can you see Snape telling Dobby it would be okay to call him a "barmy old codger"?


Lina - Sep 30, 2004 5:05 am (#2670 of 2956)
T Brightwater, i do agree with you about DD, I just tried (hard) to look at his mistakes the way people look at Snape's mistakes (not that I think that they can be compared, I just wanted to change perspective). Why is it so easy to forgive DD and it is not easy to forgive Snape? Maybe it is because we didn't see Snape forgive anybody? That's why I like to forgive him as well as DD does, just to be forgiven some day. And because I think that he TRIES, maybe even more hard then DD does, to be on the right side. It is just that his nature is so stronger then him in that battle.

Ann: As for the Occlumency lessons, I think one thing that's been overlooked in this very interesting discussion is their adversarial nature. Harry is trying to learn to fend off an attack. To give him practice, Snape has to attack him.

I agree with you, Ann. Therefore, Snape is the most perfect person for this job and I come again to the conclusion that it had to be someone like McGonnagall to prepare him for the lessons to make him understand how important it is for him (Harry) to cooperate, even though he didn't get a pleasant teacher. But if it had happened this way, and if Harry had learned Oclumnency properly, there would have been no battle at the MoM, and Sirius wouldn't have died, and everything would have gone in some other direction. Wouldn't it? If nobody made any mistakes, instead of a seven books series, we would have got a children's picture book.

I can agree with the idea that DD would not use the kind of magic that would make anybody suffer, but I still don't understand what makes him so sure about Snape? Any kind of love story, or disappointment, or humiliation or searching for esteem does not seem so assuring to me. Because, for example, he could always be disappointed by the other side too. Then what? What makes him so sure? He said - It is between Snape and me. Unless he made a misjudgment as in the case Moody/Crouch Jr. Hmmmm....


Loopy Lupin - Sep 30, 2004 5:21 am (#2671 of 2956)
Harry is trying to learn to fend off an attack. To give him practice, Snape has to attack him.-- Ann

Brilliant. Snape was the one person who would not hold anything back (or "pull punches" as it were) during this training.


Tessa's Dad - Sep 30, 2004 6:05 am (#2672 of 2956)
Edited by Sep 30, 2004 7:07 am
Good old Snivellus reminds me of a Drill Sergeant. I had a Sergeant in basic training that was just a sweet and as loving as old Snapey Poo. They even share the same grooming habits. The basic concept behind Drill Sergeants seems to be to beat, or otherwise instill, into the pupil an understanding of discipline. The discipline needed for a battlefield environment. Not a lot of molly coddling going to be required.

A battlefield environment. I wonder if that could foretell anything?


Ann - Sep 30, 2004 6:12 am (#2673 of 2956)
Lina, I think you are quite right about the fact that JKR couldn't let Harry learn Occlumency in OotP, or there would be no resolution to the plot. So it's not Snape's fault entirely! (Sorry Solitaire!) There are actually lots of things like this in the books--for example, what would have happened in PS/SS if Harry & friends had not gone after the stone? Quirrell would never have got it out of the mirror.

And Hollywand, the vulture is Nekhbet, not Mekbet. She's normally found on the heads of queens, as is the cobra, of course. The king is also protected by these two gods, though he never wears the vulture hat. (Sorry to be pedantic, but I teach this stuff in real life.) So unless Snape is the Half Blood Prince, which is possible, of course, I can't see why they'd protect him. But except for being head of Slytherin, he hasn't had any particular association with cobras.


Catherine - Sep 30, 2004 6:15 am (#2674 of 2956)
Maybe it is because we didn't see Snape forgive anybody? --Lina

You are quite correct. Although this line comes from the PoA movie, I think it sums up a theme of the stories: (paraphrasing) "It is not in the nature of a Dementor to forgive..."

Snape and Sirius seem to be two people who are caught up in a cycle of blame and hatred, to their detriment. Dumbledore extends trust, forgiveness, and second chances. This is one reason why it is much easier to excuse Dumbledore than Snape.

I think both Snape and Harry need to forgive one another, but they are proud people, and I am not sure how this will come about.


T Brightwater - Sep 30, 2004 7:08 am (#2675 of 2956)
Tessa's Dad, the problem is that Snape is not a drill sergeant. It's supposed to be his job to teach potion-making to teenage students, many of them not from wizard families, not to "toughen up" soldiers for VWII. Snape's idea of teaching seems to be "Follow the instructions," "You did it wrong," and "You're worthless." Not a word about theory, about _why_ things interact the way they do. (When I took chemistry, we didn't just follow recipes, we were supposed to be learning about lab procedures and chemical interactions - not only how, but why certain types of chemicals reacted in certain ways.) Hermione at least is capable of understanding theory - but instead of encouraging her, he squashes her every chance he gets. I think it's significant that Harry (and probably Neville as well) is better at potion-making when Snape isn't around.

Harry, who does not act like a drill sergeant, has taught his students more about DADA than any of the official teachers, including Lupin - and it's notable that Neville, whom Snape thinks is completely hopeless, becomes the second-best student in Harry's class.

Snape's attitude is not helping anyone, and is doing a lot of harm, to himself as well as others.


Tessa's Dad - Sep 30, 2004 7:22 am (#2676 of 2956)
I didn?t say it was a good thing. I just spotted a possible pattern.


Weeny Owl - Sep 30, 2004 8:18 am (#2677 of 2956)
Snape was the one person who would not hold anything back (or "pull punches" as it were) during this training.

If Snape were teaching Harry various dueling techniques, I could see that not holding anything back might be the best course of action. When it comes to invading Harry's mind, however, it's another matter entirely.

Dumbledore felt he couldn't do the teaching and found someone he thought was suitable. Dumbledore was wrong.

As for the drill instructor analogy, it doesn't apply either because, war or not, it's still someone invading somone else's mind. That is something that needs to be done in a subtle manner, much the same way hypnosis would be done. You can't create a tense situation and expect someone to be easily hypnotized. Snape was totally wrong for this, and the way in which he went about it was wrong.

I am a Snape fan. I like him. I like his sarcasm most of the time. I think he's actually one of the good guys even if he isn't one of the nice ones. With this huge antipathy where Harry is concerned, though, this was one job he was just not suited for.

Snape and Sirius seem to be two people who are caught up in a cycle of blame and hatred, to their detriment. Dumbledore extends trust, forgiveness, and second chances. This is one reason why it is much easier to excuse Dumbledore than Snape.

That's the point exactly, Catherine. (Waving, by the way.) When it comes to invading a mind, trust is a huge issue, and Snape and Harry do not trust each other.

Snape's idea of teaching seems to be "Follow the instructions," "You did it wrong," and "You're worthless." Not a word about theory, about _why_ things interact the way they do.

That certainly applies to Occlumency, T. Snape has taught the students enough so that Umbridge wasn't happy with how far they had progressed, but I do wonder how much more they would learn from a true Potions Master if he were to explain theory. His methods might work with potions, but the mind is a delicate thing that needs to be treated gently.


ShelterGirl - Sep 30, 2004 8:39 am (#2678 of 2956)
Weeny: I think he's actually one of the good guys even if he isn't one of the nice ones.

Excellent!! My mother and I have discussed this point for years. Someone can be a "good" person without being a "nice" person. I have always felt this regarding Snape. Many people disagree with me on the point entirely. They say you can't have one without the other. I deeply feel that you can.

Snape seems to have chosen to be good and not nice. It might have been a stretch for him to choose good in the first place. Asking him to be nice as well could conceivably give him an aneurism.


T Brightwater - Sep 30, 2004 8:56 am (#2679 of 2956)
Sorry, Tessa's Dad, that probably came off as, er, witchier than I meant. It's a recurring theme on this thread that Snape is just acting mean and tough because he's preparing Harry for his battle with Voldemort, and I'm still not convinced. I think he's just plain mean, whatever excuses he may use to justify his behavior. I agree, though, that he's on the right side - most of the time, anyway. (that is, most of the time I agree, not that he's on the right side most of the time...I'd better quit while I'm ahead.)


Loopy Lupin - Sep 30, 2004 9:42 am (#2680 of 2956)
When it comes to invading Harry's mind, however, it's another matter entirely. -- Weeny Owl.

Snape was preparing Harry to fend off Voldemort's attempts to invade Harry's mind. Being delicate about it wouldn't have helped much.


Choices - Sep 30, 2004 9:43 am (#2681 of 2956)
I agree that Snape is basically a very disagreeable person, but I do think he is training Harry for battle......the battle of his life and the salvation of the wizarding world. Snape knows there probably won't be any second chances. Harry is bad about following directions - I, myself, get outdone with him in potions class when he messes up because he isn't paying attention. How difficult is it to follow a recipe written on the board? That lack of attention (to detail) could get him killed. He has to get it right the first time because there may not be a second chance. Life is tough and it's going to get tougher - Snape knows that from personal experience.


Solitaire - Sep 30, 2004 9:59 am (#2682 of 2956)
Ann, in post 2674: Lina, I think you are quite right about the fact that JKR couldn't let Harry learn Occlumency in OotP, or there would be no resolution to the plot. So it's not Snape's fault entirely! (Sorry Solitaire!)

Ann, I don't understand what you are talking about here. What are you sorry about?

Solitaire


Lina - Sep 30, 2004 12:43 pm (#2683 of 2956)
ShelterGirl, you touched the point! To be good is a choice, to be nice is a gift. As any gift (such as singing) it has to be and it can be trained, but a gift remains a gift. I can learn to sing up to a point not to be noticed in a choir, someone else would need to practise much more and maybe would never succeed, and someone else needs to practice just a little, not to let the gift die, such as DD in being nice.

I would say that Snape is not gifted at all in being nice, unlike Tom Riddle...


Weeny Owl - Sep 30, 2004 2:41 pm (#2684 of 2956)
Snape seems to have chosen to be good and not nice. It might have been a stretch for him to choose good in the first place. Asking him to be nice as well could conceivably give him an aneurism.

That made me spew - not S.P.E.W., though. (Going to another room for a few minutes to laugh hysterically.)

Snape was preparing Harry to fend off Voldemort's attempts to invade Harry's mind. Being delicate about it wouldn't have helped much.

Actually, it would have helped a great deal. Explaining to Harry HOW to clear his mind would have given him a method for doing so. Just TELLING him to do it obviously didn't work. Snape didn't even explain what might happen when he first cast "Legilimens." Harry had no idea what to expect, and the one time he managed to get into Snape's mind, he knew Snape would make him pay for what he saw.

When dealing with minds, it's necessary to first achieve enough trust so that the person whose mind is being invaded knows that he/she isn't in any actual danger, that the person doing the invading won't use what is found against him/her, and to give the person various ways of clearing his/her mind later.

Basically, it boils down to one thing... Dumbledore said he made a mistake in having Snape try to teach Harry Occlumency, and Dumbledore was right.


Emiko - Sep 30, 2004 2:42 pm (#2685 of 2956)
I don't think being nice is a gift, Lina. That's like saying that someone's not nice because that's just the way they were born! Being nice is a personality trait, which, to an extent, is genetic, but it is also a choice. Snape could choose to compliment Hermione on her flawless potions, which would be nice, but he chooses to ignore them. Snape chooses to say what he says to Neville, it's not that those comments have been sitting inside him since he was born. Perhaps Snape's "choice" to become nasty and harsh was a bit of a forced one (i.e. he had a bad family, was bullied in school etc.) but it's still a choice- lots of people have had terrible childhoods and grown up to be fine people.

BTW- how on earth in Tom Riddle nice???


legolas - Sep 30, 2004 3:04 pm (#2686 of 2956)
I was wondering how far Snape has been taken into DD confidence?

He points out to Fudge that Harry has received special treatment. He also suggests that Harry gets punished when there is no proof of him doing anything wrong. He was horrible to Harry from day one becuase of issues with James/Sirius. He was harsh and took every oppertunity to belittle Harry. I very much doubt he has a kind/sensitive bone in his body. HOw is this preparing Harry for the future war? I find it very difficult to agree with the tough love that people have been proposing in earlier posts. Voldy did not explain to him in advance in the graveyard that he was going to use unforgivable curses. Harry managed to escape so he has the ability to think on his feet. I guess by not giving him any instructions it would be like a sudden onslaught from Voldemort. Snape knew that Harry could throw off the Imperius Curse so would expect him to adapt. Why help Harry out with instructions when he could cause further mental suffering? Learning how to block the mental assault was not menat to be.

Does he know about the Prophosey?


hellocello3200 - Sep 30, 2004 4:34 pm (#2687 of 2956)
Legolas, you raise an interesting question. If Snape knows about the prophecy, his attitude is probably "We are all doomed, though it could be worse, it could be Neville". I think that Snape seems to imply to Harry several times that he is not important, that he just happened to be "The boy that lived" and that he should let the grown ups handle things. He might just be hiding the truth though, I'm sure he would want to admit to Harry that he is indeed special.


T Brightwater - Sep 30, 2004 4:48 pm (#2688 of 2956)
Emiko, Tom Riddle tells Harry in CoS that he's always been able to charm the people he needs to - he pretended to be sympathetic and kind to Ginny even though he despised her and was using her. I would say that Tom Riddle had the gift of _appearing_ to be nice, even when his true motives were evil.

Ludo Bagman is another person who strikes me as being quite charming but not necessarily on the right side. Lucius Malfoy can also be charming when he wants to be, and we _know_ he's on the wrong side.

I think you're absolutely right that Snape has choices about how he behaves. He may not have all the social skills that, for example, Remus has, (not many people do), but his grudge against James is something that he has deliberately held onto and transferred to Harry, who didn't even really _know_ James.

Forgiving, or at least letting go of resentment, doesn't mean that the original cause of the resentment was right or justified, it means that you're not going to waste time and energy letting it eat you any more. Snape has himself magnified the original injury by hanging on to it; at this point, it's no longer a matter of what James and Sirius did to him, it's what he's doing to himself and those around him. When you've held a grudge for that long, it's hard to let go, but believe me, you feel a lot better when you've done it.

I'd like to see that happen with Snape; I'd like to see him transformed the way Sirius was when Harry said he wanted to stay with him. I don't know if it will happen.


Hollywand - Sep 30, 2004 5:06 pm (#2689 of 2956)
Ann, I do think you are splitting hairs over Egyptian pronunciation.

I have seen several spellings and pronounciations of ancient Egyptian terms, and I don't think any of us can claim ourselves to be completely correct, since none of us have lived the culture or spoken the language.

The difference between Nekbet, Mekbet, Shawbty, Ushabty, these are minimal differences and don't make the associations patently wrong.

As to the gender references, Snape does appear in feminine clothing as Neville's grandmother/boggart in the vulture context.

I'm not referring to Severus as being protected, but as a protective figure that will perhaps appear in battle as a vulture/phoenix/cobra figure. As head of Slytherin, associating him with snake images is entirely plausible.


Ann - Sep 30, 2004 7:27 pm (#2690 of 2956)
Solitaire, sorry if I was confusing: What I meant was that, the reason Snape was so bad at teaching Harry was that JKR's plot required that he see Voldemort's bogus scene of Sirius being tortured in the DoM. If Snape had taught Harry well, that wouldn't have happened. So it was JKR's fault as much as Snape's. Since I know you would like to think the worst of Snape, and I was suggesting teasingly that I owed you an apology for pointing this out. But instead I have to apologize for not being clear.

It is interesting, though, that we are all analyzing these books on two different but related levels: on one level we talk about the characters and their motivations, flaws, and virtues as if they were real people (as of course they are to us as readers, a tribute to JKR's artistry). On the other level, we discuss twists of plot, what JKR is likely or unlikely to do with these characters and the clues she has planted about their futures. It's very easy to mix these up in discussions, although we wouldn't in daily life. (We don't, for example, predict death for our acquaintances based on the fact that they share an eye color with someone who died last year or because they live on a street with an ominous name. Nor, if we overhear someone's name in passing, do we expect that person to play an important role in our future.) I was just playing with the difference between the two levels a bit--the in-text and the super-text, or whatever the correct analytical terminology is. (And I hope someone will tell me; I've been very leery about making such suppositions since I mistook "eisegesis" for a typo!)

Hollywand, well, I said I was being pedantic. Sorry. I'm a pedant, so it comes naturally. As you say, none of us have lived in the culture or spoken the language, but for those of us who have studied and taught it for three or four decades, the habit of correcting and explaining becomes rather inveterate. But I shall stop doing so, and I apologize if I offended you.


Solitaire - Sep 30, 2004 9:00 pm (#2691 of 2956)
Thanks, Ann. I was just unclear ... I thought you were referring to a post I'd made, and I could not figure what it was! Not that I probably haven't made some strange ones ... especially when I am half asleep and some wild, hare-brained theory strikes my fancy!

I understand that things had to play out as they did, or we might not have had much of a book. I still, however, feel that appointing Snape as Headmaster would be disastrous for Hogwarts.

Solitaire


Lina - Oct 1, 2004 2:37 am (#2692 of 2956)
Emiko, you might have a gift to be nice, so you don't understand the struggle some people have to achieve it. As well as people who sing wonderful can not understand someone who can not repeat a single tone. As well as someone who can jump long jumps can not understand that someone else, who is not handicapped, can not jump say 3 feet... And, BTW, Weeny Owl, it could be the same reason why Snape doesn't explain Harry HOW to empty his mind. Something that comes to you naturally is hard to be explained.

Here is the little problem of languages, i admit, and I am not the right person to explain the English language, but MY definition would be: nice is someone who you like, and if you don't know the bad things he eventually does, you still like him. And good is one who does good things or at least tries to (they say that hell is full of good intentions) but it might not always be obvious.

Emiko: BTW- how on earth in Tom Riddle nice??? Tom Riddle, as a student in Hogwarts, IS nice. He is polite and most of professors adore him. Even DD liked him until he started to suspect that he was the one who opened the Chamber of Secrets. I wander if we'll ever find out how DD found out that he was the heir of the Slytherin.

legolas: I was wondering how far Snape has been taken into DD confidence? Who wouldn't wish to know that?

T Brightwater : Forgiving, or at least letting go of resentment, doesn't mean that the original cause of the resentment was right or justified, it means that you're not going to waste time and energy letting it eat you any more. Snape has himself magnified the original injury by hanging on to it; at this point, it's no longer a matter of what James and Sirius did to him, it's what he's doing to himself and those around him. When you've held a grudge for that long, it's hard to let go, but believe me, you feel a lot better when you've done it.

I couldn't agree with you more! It is a little the same as Harry who was not sure he wanted to fight dementors because they were the way for him to hear his parents. And indeed, the hatred is a dementor for Snape. I guess he feels he would betray himself if he stopped to hate him. If he had a chance to humiliate James at least once in his life, he would probably feel much better now. Is it that he can't forgive LV for taking away this opportunity from him by killing James?

It seems to me that he really appreciates life, he hates killing, but he doesn't see anything wrong in bullying people (I am not saying that he is right by thinking so). After all, i bet he thinks: "I was bullied all my life and look how well I have come out!"


septentrion - Oct 1, 2004 5:32 am (#2693 of 2956)
I've skimmed through the last posts (didn't have time to read them properly) but I have a wonder which has been taunted me for a while : is how to clear one's mind explanable ? I've tried to think of a method but nothing came to my mind (is my mind already cleared ? )


haymoni - Oct 1, 2004 5:44 am (#2694 of 2956)
I think Harry needs some good meditation cds.

Severus told him to let go of his emotions but just being in that office was enough to set Harry off.

I'm wondering if we will see a confrontation between Harry & Snape. I can see Harry accusing Snape of egging Sirius on thus causing his rash behavior, but Snape countering this by telling Harry if he had been good at blocking his thoughts, Sirius would never have had to come to the MOM.

Hurry up HBP!


Aurian - Oct 1, 2004 6:32 am (#2695 of 2956)
I'm thinking that in a way, Snape wasn't to enthusiastic about Harry's success with Occulemency. I mean, obviously he considered it his duty to Dumbledore to help Harry as much as possible, but I also think that a little part of him saw it as another way to belittle Harry and exert his power over him. He was angry and seemed a bit shocked when Harry broke through to his own thoughts, implying that he was coming down very hard on Harry, perhaps harder than he should have been. Did Dumbledore really expect Harry to be successful under the guidance of an embittered man who he evidentially hates? The emptying of one's emotions is, as Snape said essential to the success of Occulemency, yet how can it work when both involved despise each other? Or maybe this is what DD intended - giving Harry practice against someone he hates so as to be more successful against Voldemort? Maybe you've all discussed this already, and I'm just slow, sorry!! (by the way, thanks Her-melanie!Surprised)


T Brightwater - Oct 1, 2004 7:15 am (#2696 of 2956)
septentrion, there are visualizations one can use, which I think others have mentioned. Here's one: Imagine an empty blackboard. As thoughts form in your mind, they appear as writing on the board, and then imagine yourself wiping the blackboard clean again. (This is one way to get to sleep if your mind is being too active.)

As for emptying oneself of emotion, I wonder if distraction might be more effective; this is the part of the defense against boggarts and dementors, after all. With a boggart, you think about something funny instead of what you're afraid of; with a dementor, you concentrate very hard on a happy memory or thought instead of the most horrible moments of your life. Perhaps the best way to start in Occlumency would be to imagine something pleasant but neutral - a situation that is not emotionally charged, like a sunny afternoon and a sundae at Florean Fortescue's ice cream parlor? Then hold on to that thought while someone tries to get at other thoughts in your mind. (This is works for one of the characters in Susan Cooper's _The Dark is Rising_ - he concentrates very hard on what he's likely to have for breakfast while an opponent is trying to read his mind.)

I suspect this is what Snape himself does. I can't believe that when Voldemort tries to look into his mind, he encounters a blank wall - he wouldn't trust Snape for a moment. It's been suggested that Snape keeps his hatred of James, Sirius, and Harry in the front of his mind when he's with Voldemort, which enables him to block thoughts of his involvement with the Order.


Weeny Owl - Oct 1, 2004 8:24 am (#2697 of 2956)
haymoni and T have excellent ideas about how to clear one's mind. Even deep-breathing exercises might have helped because Harry would have been concentrating on inhaling, holding the breath for a set number of seconds, and then exhaling.

The point is, from my perspective, that merely telling someone to do something, and snarling during the telling, isn't the way to get the point across. Berating someone won't work when it's something as intricate as a mind.

Again, I do like Snape, but this was one job he shouldn't have been given.


Prefect Marcus - Oct 1, 2004 1:59 pm (#2698 of 2956)
Again, I do like Snape, but this was one job he shouldn't have been given.

That, in a nutshell, is exactly what I think.


hellocello3200 - Oct 1, 2004 5:27 pm (#2699 of 2956)
"I bet he thinks 'I was bullied all my life and look how well I have come out'" -Lina

Thanks Lina, you made my day. I wonder how well does Snape see himself, I suspect he tells himself that he is a demanding teacher that instills discipline and knowledge into the next generation and doesn't admit that he is really a horrible person that is disliked by most.


Mrs. Sirius - Oct 1, 2004 7:41 pm (#2700 of 2956)
Sometime ago there was a discussion of where the Dark Mark is on the arms of the Death Eaters, the inner arm or outer forearm. I know this isn't related to current discussions, but I just found the description in GOF, p 519,

"This', said Karkaroff, and Harry, peering around the edge of his cauldron, saw Karkaroff pull up the left-hand sleeve of robe and show Snape something on his inner forearm."
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Chemyst - Oct 2, 2004 3:21 pm (#2701 of 2956)
I do think Weeny Owl is mostly correct in the assessment of Snape's teaching technique. But, consistent with the complex nature of Professor Severus, he did do a few things well: 1. He did explain the difference between legilimency and muggle mind-reading, 2. He did explain that time, space, and eye contact matter, 3. He did start to explain that Harry's vision "represented such a powerful incursion upon the Dark Lord's thoughts..." (at which point Harry interrupts and never gets the rest of the answer!), and 4. When Snape told Harry he was about to attempt to break into his mind, he did something all good teachers do – he used something with which Harry was already familiar and competent, resisting the Imperius Curse, and building on what he already knew, told Harry that Occlumency used similar powers. OP24

Going back a few pages, I really like Lina's I would say that Snape is not gifted at all in being nice, unlike Tom Riddle... #2684 comparison. It is something I've known since CS, but never gave it much thought. I had no problem understanding what she meant, although "nice" is such a general catch-all word that perhaps "personable" fits the meaning more closely. That is not nit-picking – I'm actually in awe of how well non-native speakers express themselves in English on this forum. No, Snape isn't gifted in this. Even when he is polite, he's not charismatic (except in movie contamination).


rambkowalczyk - Oct 2, 2004 3:51 pm (#2702 of 2956)
Good Post Chemyst, you said in better detail my own gut feeling about Snape teaching Occlumency.


Grimber - Oct 2, 2004 4:58 pm (#2703 of 2956)
I think Snape is underrated by people. He definatly fills the anti-hero role. someone you want to dislike and even want to belive hes evil, but push comes to shove he does the right thing.

Hes stood up and watched out for harry on more than one occasion, but tried to not make it look like he was. In fact he seems to go out of his way to make people think he hates Harry.

As to the Occlumency teaching. Thats clearly on harry why he didn't do well. Never followed Snapes instructions to clear his mind every night before Bed. Why did DD pick Snape to train harry in Occlumency? Well Snapes skill and experiance for one, even Lupin says Snape is good at it. Harrys distrust/dislike in Snape, you need to build some sort of trust in the guy that is trying to teach you to protect against invading the secrets of your mind. So maybey one hope of DD to get harry to trust Snape a bit more. Also why dumbledor didn't teach harry, if Vold could read harrys thoughts, while being taught harry had seen some of snapes memories, vold could have been instead looking at Dumbldors thoughts if Dumbldor was teaching him.

As for snape working for Voldemort. Only mention of snape involved with the Deatheaters is he was involved with a group wanting to become deatheaters ( I equate to being like Hitler youth) so they would possibly have had recieved the DE mark along with the DEs themselves. We have no indication he actualy became one but he would have made close contacts with various DEs but didn't live up to some expectation to become a full fledged DE ( couldn't bring himself to kill a muggle for fun, couldn't caste one of the Unforgivable curses ("silly wand waving") we just don't know.) Woud also explain why snape never had to appear before VOld at his rebirth either. Snape was clearly still at the school during the events in the graveyard.

We also know Dumbldor stood up for him during his trial.

This though puts him an an ideal possition for either side. Hes Head of Slythrin house, so watchs over many children of past deatheaters in school. He has retained contact with several deatheaters. Outwardly retains the dispostion to hate muggles and muggle borne WW, even any that don't end up in Slythrin. But Dumbledor trusts him and Snape has shown signs of watching out for the intrest of the school ( especialy watching out for Quirrls actions during SS). he would make an idea spy. wouldn't have to have contact with Vold, just prominent DEs like Malfoys, Crabbe/Goyle if thick headed as thier sons would certainly leak info to Snape).

Being Very skilled in Occul and Lig. he could protect his mind from any DE trying to see if hes on Dumbledors side while even passing a few bits of false information to the DE's the DD concocts to establish more trust in Snape but mislead Vold and his DEs.


Solitaire - Oct 2, 2004 6:47 pm (#2704 of 2956)
Snape is a character whose moral ambiguity makes it difficult to really assess him accurately. Because his people skills are poor, he makes absolutely zero effort with people he does not like. I am guessing he can be ingratiating when he wishes to be; he simply does not wish it very often.

I DO believe Snape was a bona fide Death Eater, Grimber, because he has the Dark Mark. I do not think those were either given or taken lightly. Receiving the Dark Mark seemed to signify that one had indeed sworn allegiance to the Dark Lord. I do not think Snape was just "dabbling" as a youngster in the Dark Arts at this point. Snape has always been a very calculating, intelligent Slytherin, and he knew exactly what he was doing.

I think Snape believed in the ideals of keeping wizardry and witchcraft within the pure-blood families, and that is why he joined Voldemort. I think he may have gotten a rude awakening when he realized exactly how far Voldemort was prepared to go to carry out his plans. I believe it was at that point Snape probably defected and brought some important information or evidence to Dumbledore--which is why Dumbledore trusts him.

I do not for one minute believe that Snape is just putting up the appearance of disliking Muggles and Muggle-borns. I believe it is a very real dislike, which is why it is so convincing. I also do not think he pretends to dislike Harry. I think he truly hates him. That, too, plays nicely into his "double agent" role--if, indeed, that is what he is doing. If it is, then Snape is lucky that he just gets to be his own, natural self--as nasty as possible to those he hates! Smile

For the most part, I do not think Snape cares who likes or doesn't like him--except Dumbledore. I think he wants Dumbledore to trust and believe him. I also think he wants to be sufficiently believed to do whatever it is he does for the Order--which means he must maintain reasonable relations with the Malfoys. He wants respect from the students, but--as Weeny Owl, I believe, pointed out several posts back--he does not feel he needs to earn that respect. He feels he should just BE respected because he is their teacher. Alas, earwax ...

Solitaire


Marie E. - Oct 2, 2004 6:50 pm (#2705 of 2956)
I always had the feeling that Snape really didn't like teaching, thought it was beneath him. I think he's at Hogwarts as part of his double agent status, working with DD to have access.

Solitaire [/b]- Oct 2, 2004 7:26 pm (#2706 of 2956)
Marie E., I think that is likely. I have always felt that Dumbledore hired him to teach potions in order to give him a job and a place to live that would keep him out of reach of anyone who might wish to harm him. I get the idea that there are few or no personal relationships (family or friends) in Snape's life, so he had nowhere to go.

It is possible that the circumstances of his absence from the DEs (defection) is not generally known among them, which makes his position as a double agent possible. Lucius--who sees him appearing to be loyal to Dumbledore--might just assume Snape is looking out for his own interests, as Lucius himself has always done.

Keeping Snape in a place where he can continue to appear sort of vague with his loyalties allows him to function as a double agent, if that is indeed what he is doing.

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Oct 2, 2004 7:28 pm (#2707 of 2956)
I agree with you completely, Solitaire, about the Dark Mark, the pure-blood prejuidices, hating Harry, and wanting Dumbledore's respect.

Snape is a mystery, and until the last book, I doubt if JKR is going to show us which side he's truly on, even if it's just his own side.


Solitaire - Oct 2, 2004 7:36 pm (#2708 of 2956)
Weeny Owl, I agree that the mystery of Snape is almost as tormenting and titillating to many readers as what will ultimately happen to Harry. I do NOT see JKR revealing any more of Snape than she absolutely must until Book 7. I sometimes wonder if he has become a more important character than she originally intended? Just wondering ... no dung bombs, please.

Solitaire


T Brightwater - Oct 2, 2004 7:51 pm (#2709 of 2956)
He's certainly become a more _popular_ character than she ever intended!


Grimber - Oct 3, 2004 4:31 pm (#2710 of 2956)
OK I found the exact passage, proves I'm wrong about Snape being/not being a DE, he even admits he was. Smile

GoF page 708-709 Snape showing the DM to Fudge.

"... Every Death Eater had the sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of distiguishing one another, and his means of summoning us to him. When he touched the Mark of any Death Eater, we were to Disapperate, and Apperate, instantly, at his side."

US and WE, Snape defiantly lumping himself in with being/been a DE.

It couldn't be an instance summons either else Karkaroff wouldn't have been able to run off and refused to appear. Even Voldemort says that he " wonders how many will be brave enough to appear" in the graveyard scene.

I don't think Snape was at the graveyard though even though there were defiantly some DEs there but not named. 2 reasons. one he didn't mention he went when he tried to help convince Fudge that Vold was back and I think Snape would have been hard pressed to even have had time to leave hogwatrs grounds from the quidatch stadium, apperate to the graveyard, apperate back and join up with Dumbledor and McGonegall when they rescued Harry from Crouch ( not allot of time there).

Second and I think more important is the events in SS/PS. Quirrell went on about how after he faild at Gringots, that the Dark Lord kept a closer eye on him ( when Vold joined himself to Quirrell). so Vold would have witnessed most all the events during the school year. Re reading the last chapter of SS, it was snape that interfeared at every turn of Quirrell trying to kill harry and obtain the stone. If snape had known Quirrell was doing Volds work, he wouldn't have interfeared. So take in that Snape wouldn't have known, Vold would still be none to pleased with Snape. Afterall, Vold was pretty upset with his deatheaters that wern't in Azkeban and didn't try to find him, he would realy be put out with one that interfeared with his plans. Vold would have most likely killed Snape at the Graveyard. The last couple chapters of GoF and last one of SS i think are critical in solving some of the questions about Snape but create many new ones.

How can a DE no longer be a DE? That seems to be a till death either from service or the dark lords own hands sort of commitment. Yet Snape seems to have eluded death but is not realy on Voldemorts side. He retains his ties and connections to other DE's but has yet been a target of VOldemort for his interfearing in keeping Harry alive, his apparent loyalty to Dumbldor, and interferance in Vold plan to get the SS.

Snape IMO is a bigger mystery than any other character. hehe I'm getting a headache tring to puzzel him out.


Emiko - Oct 3, 2004 6:48 pm (#2711 of 2956)
Grimber, while I agree with you premise (i.e. Snape wasn't at the rebirthing) I don't exactly agree with your reasons. Snape telling Fudge he had been at the rebirthing would have been extremely stupid. Snape telling ANYONE he had been at the rebirthing (except for DD, of course) would have been stupid. Who could be listening? And, who could tell? Fudge wasn't a positive believer- Snape had no guarantee that Fudge wouldn't act on that information. Just think of what Fudge could have done if he had known that Snape was a DE in OotP? Besides, the OotP isn't a ministry organization, and I don't believe it was before, either. To me, Snape letting it "slip" that he was a spy for the DEs would be a bad idea. Besides, Snape flipped out the year before over his "dissapointment", it's questionable as to whether or not Fudge would believe him. I can just picture the headlines: "Deluded Hogwarts Teacher Believes He Spies on He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", you can just imagine what LV would do with that!

And, Grimber- we discussed the time problem intensly in previous posts, if you search, I'm sure you'll find it.

The reason I don't believe he was at the rebirthing is because of little inconsistencies- like, why didn't he help Harry? people have justified that by saying he used a Time-Turner, but I've re-read it, and there don't appear to be any clues leading to that conclusion (and JKR ALWAYS gives us clues). DD says that HARRY let him know that LV was back right away- that implies that DD wouldn't have known about it until later, that Harry was the only one who could have told him (and there was no need to protect Snape's identity since Harry already knows). (Besides, if DD started acting off of Snape's info, LV would know there was a spy. But that's irrelevant) Personally, I think that Snape took a rain check on the rebirthing party, and made it up to LV later. Okay, I'm going to bed- sorry for the really long post!


T Brightwater - Oct 3, 2004 7:37 pm (#2712 of 2956)
Emiko, I'm with you. Snape had two excellent reasons for not showing up at the rebirthing. First, as Hermione keeps telling everybody, and as Snape himself says in PoA, you can't Apparate into or out of Hogwarts. This includes the grounds, as Hermione points out in GoF. (However, no one seems to have told Dobby.) Second, Snape's most valuable asset from Voldemort's point of view is his position in the enemy camp. I agree also that he reported in later; Snape's skill at Occlumency was probably put to its greatest test that night after Voldemort's return.



Grimber - Oct 3, 2004 11:00 pm (#2713 of 2956)
The point I was trying to make was with Snape and Fudge is that Snape was without being asked or instructed to do so, trying to help convince Fudge of Vodimorts return ( he was standing behind Dumbldor when he stepped forward and showed Fudge the death mark) Pages 708-709 GoF. This totaly appears to have been totaly volitary on his part. He didn't have to say anything, could have just kept silent. Doesn't strike me as something a loyal DE would do, to HELP convince the minister of Volds return. Would he have told the Minister IF he had been at the graveyard ( which I totaly think he wasn't), mabey, but definatly would have said so to Dumbledor.

Minister would have already known Snape had been a Spy for the Order before, dumbledor had to present that evidance as proof at Snapes DE trail to get him off. around page 590 ish GoF ( another spot that states clearly Snape was a DE btw that I missed before Smile ), whether Fudge would have belived him is a totaly differnt thing as he seems to have the same mindset as Harry does to Snape.

Snape is bad, mean, rotten, nasty, and terrible to people. But he hasn't shown that he is actualy evil. In fact many characters including Harry seem to totaly ignore the fact he does good things simply because how he is, his attitude overshadows his actions.

Also its easy to know that at least some of the DEs know Snape spyed on Voldemort before. It was karkaroff that tried to 'finger' snape and was told he was left off becuase he spyed against voldemort. Karkaroff being free apparently for some time would easy have told other DEs ( like Malfoy) of this. Does Vold know? thats not clear.

Does Snape report to Vold? I still disagree that Snape has anything to do with Vold so I don't think Snape would even go near Voldemort and he doesn;t need to do any spying on him.

This leads to a quandry ( and mabey Snapes secret) at least some DE's know of Snapes spying but havn't done anything to him, and Snape definatly messed with Voldemort/Quirrells attempts at Harrys life and to get the SS. SO why havn't the DE's tried to kill him?

It's easy to surmise that Snape is still working for Voldemort. We want him to be bad along with Vold and Malfoy just because of how he is with people.

I think Snapes past actions he wouldn't be just punished, hes done far worse than most DEs Vold has killed himself. Vold wouldn't have let him off any hook In my opinion. So its foolish for Snape to even go near Vold.

Being a teacher ( thus under Dumbldors eyes) Snape would have some protection ( otehr than going to Grimwald or the Shreaking shack we don't see any indications of Snape leaving the grounds). But doesn't explain his still having ties to some DE's.

2 theories both a big stretch

1. Hes got some DEs believing ( hes had time to concoct a story by now) he has Dumbledor befuddled to his true intentions/loyalty. ( even I wouldn't buy this one)

2. Some DEs had plot(s) against Voldemort in the firstplace for his downfall (Malfoy being the ring leader) and they need Snape to stay alive because hes thier only key to keeping thier plots secret from Voldemort. ( would be a good Secret Keeper , someone hiding in Hogwarts and can keep his mind shut from Voldemort digging out secrets).

It wouldn't be unlike Malfoy to use the Order and the Ministry to further his ambitions. Which way would Dumbldor choose if he knows? I think He'd rather have to Deal with a Malfoys scheams and plots for power on the long term basis than Voldemorts mass killing spreas. Something tells me Dumbledor even mentioned something somewhere once about making a choice for the greater good or somesuch. ( havn't found it yet)

(This last one I like a bit more but it still has some holes)

But I can't buy that Snape is still working for Voldemort. Hes got too much against him in that camp to ever return to Voldemorts confidance.


Grimber - Oct 4, 2004 2:09 am (#2714 of 2956)
OK thinking on this a bit more ( my last post )

Lets assume for the moment that Some DEs were plotting the downfall of Voldemort lead by Malfoy. why bring him down? They were chaffing at having to bow and grovel to a half breed wizard. Even if he was that powerful. Many of these DEs also had thier own ambitions that under Voldemort would never come to pass being nothing more than his servents.

So assuming they were plotting agaisnt him, dangerous because Voldemort could read their thoughts and they would be done for before they could do a thing. Enter Snape. Strong at resisting mind reading, he becomes thier secret-keeper. Even he though would weaken under Voldemorts probing eventualy and the DE's couldn't protect him without showing thier intentions. Desperate they do the only thing they could, send Snape to be protected by the one wizard that could, Dumbeldor. Under the pretext Snape was defecting and would provide information against Voldemort.

Would Dumbeldor buy this ? Doubtful. But he weighed the differnace, one hand plotting and scheming malfoy and some Deatheaters vs. possibly brining down Voldemort and chose the lesser of the 2 evils.

Now the plotting DEs could keep thier secrets hidden safly from Voldemort and pass on infomation to Dumbeldor through Snape to stand against every move Voldemort planned. What tossed a monkey wrench in this is some DEs were truly loyal to Voldemort so they couldn't account for what they would do.

Along comes the Prophecy. A boy will be Voldemorts downfall, Voldemort handles it personaly and hes nearly destroyed but some belive not totaly gone.

DEs are rounded up. Those totaly loyal either go into hiding ( like Wormtail) or end up in Azkeban. Those that plotted agaisnt Voldemort all claim being under Dark Lords control. Dumbledor went to bat for Snape. being as we know Dumbledor seems to inspire loyalty in those around him coupled with sticking his neck out for Snape and giving him a safe/protective home to live may be why Snape became Loyal to Dumbledor ( though hes still nasty, hes a loyal nasty guy).

SS first year for Harry. Harry as many know by SS is the reason for Voldemorts disapearance/downfall. Hes got some unkown power over Voldemort. Dumbeldor wants Harry protected and Im sure lets Hogwarts staff know to protect him.

Snape seriously chaffs under the fact hes got to protect Harry, the son of his most hated foe that even looks like him. But he does so with all seriousness and only so far as protecting his life. Snapes mroe than ready to hurt harrys reputation and feelings, long as harry is not physicaly threatend. ( I still got a feeling there is another connect to Harry and Snape that plays a part, mabey Snape had feelings for Lily secretly). Snape would be downplaying this Dumbledors trust in him to Malfoy to cover himself in the eyes of the remaining DEs.

Snape suspects Quirrell of trying to steal the SS. May not put 2 and 2 togeather right away that Quirrell is working for Voldemort but would have sometime since the SS is used to make the Elixer of life ( as Snape, if anyone, would know).

IF Snape suspected he would have more than likely informed not only Dumbeldor but also Malfoy ( set up for CoS events later).

CoB I am still working some of it out. but we know Dobby told Harry that a terrible plot has been in the works for months. MOre than likely when Malfoy though Snape suspected Voldemorts return/attempts at getting the SS.

The DEs panicked and made a hasty decision to use a probably older back up plan they had in mind during Voldmorts days. use the Diary to bring about the younder, physicaly weaker, NON immortal Voldemort from the diary ( kill a few half muggle children wizards in the process for giggles). Who would not know of the events from being in the Diary to now, could easy be delt with by the DEs if needed ( killed) and manipulate him to destroying the older, dismbodied Voldemort. Snapes job as last year was to keep Harry alive, incase thier plan failed they would still need Harry.

I'm still re-re-re-re- reading but this is by far anwers things in my mind better than any other ideas about Snape.

That he has real loyalty to Dumbledor, hides that fact from the DE's that he is a Secret-Keeper for and they in turn though need him because of Voldemort. Stays at Hogwarts because there of all places, hes safest from ANY side.

Now off to bed, hope I don't start dreaming of Snape because of all this thinking Smile


rambkowalczyk - Oct 4, 2004 10:42 am (#2715 of 2956)
Grimber, Your idea that Snape is some sort of a "secret keeper" for DEs who wanted to defect is intrigueing. Does this mean you think that Snape is the coward who will be punished by Voldemort? Or is he the traitor? I am still trying to get a handle on how Voldemort views Snape now.


Prefect Marcus - Oct 4, 2004 11:01 am (#2716 of 2956)
Did you notice in Rowling's new FAQ updates she mentions that Snape has "latent good qualities"? :-)


Elanor - Oct 4, 2004 12:02 pm (#2717 of 2956)
Oh yes I did! And I was very pleased to read it because she says too that Sirius is not very fair about Snape and it reminds me something I posted here before about the fight between Sirius and Snape in 12, Grimmault place's kitchen, during the XMas holidays (post 1868):the fact that, then, Sirius attacked first:

I quote : " "A minute or two later, he [Harry] pushed open the kitchen door to find Sirius and Snape both seated at the long kitchen table, glaring in opposite directions. The silence between them was heavy with mutual dislike. A letter lay open on the table in front of Sirius.

"Er," said Harry, to announce his presence.

Snape looked around at him, his face framed between curtains of greasy black hair.

'Sit down, Potter.'

'You know , said Sirius loudly, leaning back on his rear chair legs and speaking to the ceiling, 'I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house, you see'. An ugly flush suffused Snape's pallid face "

And after that, Snape flushed and says to Sirius "you must feel - ah - frustrated by the fact you can do nothing useful [...] for the Order".

That is true that we don't know what they said to each other before Harry came in the room, but then, Sirius really began the fight. Well it might have been Snape first as well, but he seems to contain himself better in that situation than Sirius, whose frustration is here nearly palpable.

What I think was interesting here is that it is the second time in the book (with the Snape worst memory chapter) that Sirius deliberately provoked Snapes, who, I agree, seized the opportunity immediately, but still Sirius doesn't give him a single chance to prove he may have changed. Which is very important because Harry trusts Sirius and, therefore, mistrusts Snape. Now, would have he trusted a little bit more Snape, he may have gone to him when he thought Sirius was tortured by Voldemort instead of trying to contact him in Umbridge's office...

ps: big waves too Septentrion!


septentrion - Oct 4, 2004 12:04 pm (#2718 of 2956)
Grimber, interesting idea indeed about Snape a possible secret keeper for rebel death eaters. Pure speculation of course but very worth a thought.

Yep Marcus I did notice. I also did notice that she tells that if a teacher is head of a house, they also were sorted in this house. So Snape was in Slytherin.

ps : cross post with Elanor. Big waves to Elanor !


Solitaire - Oct 4, 2004 1:33 pm (#2719 of 2956)
I don't know, Elanor ... I tend to think one is as guilty as the other of creating the problems that exist between them. I think Snape and Sirius are TOO much alike in some ways. Both hold grudges and each refuses to believe that the other is capable of change. Each one knows just what to say or do to push the other one's buttons, and both seem to enjoy pushing those buttons.

Somehow, we have two grown men--both intelligent and talented wizards--who manage to act like squabbling schoolboys and can't forgive, forget, and grow up. Perhaps they both should do a few lines with Umbridge's Quill ... "I will put the past behind me and get on with my future."

Solitaire


Grimber - Oct 4, 2004 1:55 pm (#2720 of 2956)
rambkowalczyk - i think in the view of IF this DE plot Snape Secret-Keeper thing is somewhat right, it would have put Snape in the possition of being a traitor to Voldemort. So when Dumbldor says that he spyed against Voldemort " at great personal risk" dumbldor isn't understaing it at all. We've seen how Vold treats his DEs that honestly fail a task, or not appear to a Dark Mark summons (Karkaroff is basicly marked for death now ) Someone that betrayed him and worse, got in his way several times ( SS) afterwords would definatly IMO put Snape in allot of hot water with Vold.

Been thinking about a few more memorable events that would bring this theory to question ( still re-re reading so not that far )

the DE actions at the World Cup why would they show up so publicly?

Think we can look to the real world for that answer.. what happens at most major big sporting events after the game(s)? fans celebrate, get rather drunk and stupid, get rowdy and want to have 'fun' celebrating. How do DEs, who are having a somewhat reunion in open public probably for the first time, have fun? Was mentioned DEs Idea of fun was tourturing muggles and destroy things. They got drunk, stupid, remembering the good times of the past togeather and went out for some fun. Dark mark appeared in the sky seemed to sobered them up fast, "what are we doing?" and ran for the hills.

Events at the graveyard. DEs wouldn't have wanted to tip thier hand by helping Harry. Techincaly Vold now cannot be killed by anyone other than Harry which the plotting DEs would know so them standing up to VOld at that point would have been suicide. What strikes me odd is when Harry ran for Cedrics body and the portkey. All them Deatheaters and not one could hit harry with a spell, but could hit allot of the ground and grave markers. Pretty poor shots for people that could take on ministry aurors, but can't hit one boy. ( unless of course they didn't want to hit him, just make it look like they tried)

Events in the ministry. by now some of the DEs are some of the Azkeban escapees that are Loyal to Voldemort. So the other DEs had to keep an eye out to be sure that Harry wasn't killed by one of these loyalist DEs. The other kids didn't matter if they died. I've briefly skimmed over it and only referance i seen of any DE trying to use the AK at harry seemed to been the Azkaban DEs.

What will be intresting is to see the DEs fait next book. If they are imprisoned or worse Dumbedors sources of information on Voldemort will seriously dry up ( and put Snape in Sirius prior possition of being useless to the order?)


hellocello3200 - Oct 4, 2004 6:06 pm (#2721 of 2956)
Elanor, nice thoughts. While Snape is annoying, you have to admitt tha Sirius is just as responsible if not more for their almost duel in OotP. On a similar note, have often wondered how things would have played out if Harry and Snape had gotten off to a better start in PS. Perhaps Harry will have to trust Snape more in the next two books.


Ann - Oct 4, 2004 6:53 pm (#2722 of 2956)
While I for one would not be surprised to learn that there are latent good qualities in Snape, I don't think JKR actually said that. Her point was that Sirius could not imagine that there might be. She is implying that he should try to see the good in everyone, even Snape. Whether there actually are any latent good qualities in Snape is not relevant to her point! Theoretically, it could go either way.


Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 4, 2004 7:49 pm (#2723 of 2956)
Elanor, I have to agree with Solitaire, I think Sirius & Snape are as bad as each other where their attitudes towards each other are concerned (does that make sense??) I too think they are far too alike, they both seem to be very stubborn (testa dura as my italian boyfriend calls it, I hear it all the time in reference to me!! :-)), and unable to see the good in the other. That said I don't think that Sirius's feeling for Snape are the reason Harry doesn't trust him, the reason was there from the beginning of the books, Snape is horrible to Harry. I have a slight theory on this which I may post one day once I get it sorted out in my own mind.

Harry couldn't possibly be expected to trust Snape during his Occ. lessons when in everything Harry's done with Snape he's made snide comments, punished Harry for nothing in particuler and ridiculed his work. I had a teacher very much like him at High School (I'm sure we all had at least one horror teacher) and I couldn't imagine having to allow him to do something as eveastive and personal to me as what Harry had to tolerate to study Occ.


Elanor - Oct 4, 2004 9:16 pm (#2724 of 2956)
Solitaire, Daioma: I do agree that both Sirius and Snape are too much alike and act childishly (BTW: LOL for the Umbrigde quill idea Solitaire!). That is true too that Snape has been horrible with Harry, but what I wanted to say is that Sirius's behavior didn't make things better and reinforced Harry's feelings towards Snape (but not created them) whereas Harry should have been ready to learn something from Snape at that crucial time. BTW, that is exactly what Lupin did: he told Harry he had to try hard to learn occlumency, even if he didn't like Snape, because the later was skilled for that (which IS an adult behavior!).


Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 4, 2004 10:38 pm (#2725 of 2956)
Harry should have been ready to learn something from Snape at that crucial time. BTW, that is exactly what Lupin did: he told Harry he had to try hard to learn occlumency, even if he didn't like Snape, because the later was skilled for that (which IS an adult behavior!


Very well said Elanor, I must agree with this, and admit to getting just slightly frustrated with Harry for not concentrating on it more, and wanting to know what was behind the door, I kept thinking to myself (and occasionally saying out loud to the book!) "Your not meant to be seeing this! Concentrate!!!" But.... he is only 15, and he did not fully understand why it was so important, and most importantly, that's the way JK wanted it to play out :-)


Weeny Owl - Oct 5, 2004 8:48 am (#2726 of 2956)
Harry should have been ready to learn something from Snape at that crucial time. BTW, that is exactly what Lupin did

In Harry's defense, I'm not sure anyone realized how deeply Harry was affected by the thought that he had attacked Arthur and that he was possibly being possessed by Voldemort. He felt relieved when he found out it wasn't true, but he was feeling a great deal of negative emotions at the time. It's easy to tell a kid that he needs to do something, but Harry wasn't given the information he needed as to WHY it was necessary. Sometimes telling a kid to do something works, but Harry and his world can't be compared to real life.

Harry mentioned to Snape that it was helpful to be able to know what Voldemort was up to because it had saved Arthur's life. He had a point, really, and no one ever told him the possible dangers of having Voldemort manipulate his mind.

The people surrounding Harry had good intentions, but we all know where those lead. If Snape (or Sirius or Lupin before everyone had gone back to Hogwarts) gave some examples of what might happen, Harry might have stopped being so intrigued by what was behind the door.

OotP was a tragedy waiting to happen. People were out to get Harry whether they were Death Eaters or not, and the people who were trying to help Harry gave him orders but no useful information.

What happened isn't Snape's fault, or at least it isn't his fault alone. Many people underestimated Harry's strength and abilities.

If Harry had been told in greater detail about why Occlumency was so absolutely necessary, he might have been able to learn from Snape. Of course, if Snape had been able to put aside his personal grudges, perhaps he could have found a better way of teaching Harry.


LooneyLuna - Oct 5, 2004 11:36 am (#2727 of 2956)
Interesting thoughts, all! Just a thought from my addled brain, could Sirius and Severus be half brothers with the same fathers, different mothers? That could account for the hatred between the two. "It is MY house" Sirius says to Severus. Severus gets angry and flushed. Sirius inherited all of the Black family wealth and Snape got nothing - not a father, not a dime or a respected name. Snape could be his mother's maiden name.

I know, off to St. Mungos with me.


Grimber - Oct 5, 2004 12:07 pm (#2728 of 2956)
Realy isn't anything on Snapes family so there are allot of posabilities of "Snape related to..."

Id think the hatred is more along the lines Black was best friend of james Potter. James saved Snapes life from what Black thought was a joke ( set snape to find Lupin in the Shreaking Shack when he was a full werewolf) which snape could have been killed. Close friend to a known werewolf ( to any slythrin would be though of as a freak lover).

Finaly just all the ridicule he suffered from Potters Gang that they got away with all the years in Hogwarts.

Snapes got enough reasons to hate Black without without needing to be related to him.


Lina - Oct 5, 2004 1:17 pm (#2729 of 2956)
Elanor: That is true too that Snape has been horrible with Harry, but what I wanted to say is that Sirius's behavior didn't make things better and reinforced Harry's feelings towards Snape (...)

I'm not so sure. I thing that Harry is starting to doubt Sirius' adultness and therefore he is starting to see Snape in less bed light, especially after the pensieve scene. If it wasn't so, he would have looked what is that Sirius gave him instead of hiding it from his own self and he would have used it at the time he saw Sirius tortured instead of going to the MoM.

BTW, that is exactly what Lupin did: he told Harry he had to try hard to learn occlumency, even if he didn't like Snape, because the later was skilled for that (which IS an adult behavior!).

Well, we have an excuse for Sirius not growing up (Azkaban), we can see that Lupin did grow up even being a werewolf, he doesn't keep his grudges towards all the people that he most certainly met that had prejudices towards werewolfs. The question is: what kept Snape from growing up? And I'm starting to believe we are never going to get that answer. Because "Harry Potter" is a fairy tale. It's job is to explain or describe the real world. And we find there all kins of people we find in a real world - brave, cowards, rassistic, loving, generous, selfish ... and not grown ups too. There are just too many people who refused or were prevented to grow up and for so many reasons that I'm not sure that she is going to pick just one of them for Snape. She said that she met teachers like him, using their power over students and, I'm almost sure, more then one.

Is she just going to show us that even such a difficult person can be good? I hope.


Potions Mistress - Oct 5, 2004 3:22 pm (#2730 of 2956)
"I think that Harry is starting to doubt Sirius' adultness and therefore he is starting to see Snape in less bad light, especially after the pensieve scene."--Lina

I think you're onto something, Lina. No doubt that Harry is going to have to look at things from a slightly different angle now, especially James, Sirius, and Snape.

What I'm struck by is the fact that Sirius said that the world isn't black and white/good and DE's. Yet, he really doesn't show that to Harry very well, especially when it comes to Snape. In fact, Sirius acts much like the child that Solitaire pointed him out to be, even going so far as to call Snape "Snivellus." This is coming from a thirty-some year old man, not a whiny second-grader!!

Sirius never got the chance to do some growing up. I hope that Snape _and_ Harry, undoubtedly with the help of DD and/or Lupin, will be able to look past their grudges they hold for each other and work together for their common cause.

~pm


hellocello3200 - Oct 5, 2004 6:50 pm (#2731 of 2956)
Lina I also think you have a point. I think that Harry as a child might have told his friends about what he saw, but Harry is a young adult now and understands how others might feel in certain situations, so he keeps it quiet. I think that if Sirius had lived into the next two books, Harry might have started to see the certain amount of immaturity in Sirius. (He has already seen it in Snape, but thinks of it more as being general meanness.)


Solitaire - Oct 5, 2004 6:52 pm (#2732 of 2956)
LooneyLuna ... I've read MUCH weirder theories than yours. The two of them DO act just like bickering half-siblings, each trying to one-up the other.

On one of the other threads, someone--Round Pink Spider, perhaps?--has talked about a Mordred figure that seemed to be missing. Are you suggesting that Snape could be the Mordred with Sirius the Black Prince?

Perhaps Sirius wanted to rid the family tree of that Mordred, so he tried to send him to his death (down the rabbit hole to Remus and the Shrieking Shack)--oops! I think I am mixing up my stories here! LOL Oh, well ... I tried.

If Snape turns out to inherit 12GP upon the death of Sirius, well ... maybe that will tell us something!

Solitaire


Ann - Oct 5, 2004 7:24 pm (#2733 of 2956)
Lina, I also think you've made a good point about Harry's growing suspicion about the wisdom of some of Sirius's (and James's) reactions. But in a way, Sirius's death is likely to stop that growth in Harry, at least for a bit. His loyalty to Sirius is going to prevent him from recognizing and (particularly) admitting any flaws in him for a long, long time. A pity, since he needs to take that step, and then to forgive those flaws, to grow up.

That said, I think Harry was getting mixed signals from the two people who played the parental role in his life: he was told that DD wanted him to learn occlumency, and in previous years, I think that would have been sufficient reason to make him work hard at his lessons. But in his fifth year, he is now old enough to (legitimately) demand reasons for such orders, and DD seems to have overlooked this--yet another way in which DD miscalculated and underestimated his maturity.

This might not have been enough to make him ignore DD's wishes, had not his own inclinations been supported by a lack of enthusiasm in Sirius, who was growing to be even more of a parental figure than DD. Since Sirius presumably knew the true importance of the project, it was irresponsible of him to present it to Harry as he did: as a potential opportunity for Snape to mistreat Harry. Even after Harry has acted horribly by consciously invading Snape's memories in the pensieve, Sirius blames Snape--for stopping the lessons.

Snape is, of course, at fault, too, but considering Harry's lack of regard for his opinions, I think he is really only the third most culpable villain in the piece: DD's "miscalculations" and Sirius's selfish attachment to his own prejudices contributed far more to the results (or lack of results).


TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 5, 2004 7:54 pm (#2734 of 2956)
Very astute Ann, 30 points for your house!


Potions Mistress - Oct 5, 2004 8:37 pm (#2735 of 2956)
Wow Ann! That's really impressive! I think you're right about Sirius's death "stunting" Harry's growth and abilitly to comprehend that James and Sirius were not always the most mature, responsible, and caring souls that he would like them to be (and had always imagined his father as being). I think that he had a more profound understanding of that especially during the Pensieve scence, but there are smaller instances also: when Harry learned about Sirius tricking Snape to follow them (as teenagers) and also when Sirius called Snape "Snivellus." Perhaps had Sirius lived, Harry might've been able to come to terms with that--they are human, after all. But, with Sirius gone, to paraphrase Ann, Harry is going to want to "perfectionize" Sirius, and that will have a detrimental effect on any sort of understanding between Harry and Snape. Well, off to bed now. (And yes, I know, "perfectionize" isn't a real word, but it's all I could think of right now.)

~pm


Solitaire - Oct 5, 2004 9:24 pm (#2736 of 2956)
Potions Mistress: with Sirius gone, to paraphrase Ann, Harry is going to want to "perfectionize" Sirius.

Until the "rawness" of Harry's grief subsides, it may be that way for awhile. I don't suppose Snape himself will do much to ameliorate the situation, either, since he does not appear to give a rat's patoot what Harry thinks or feels. Unless something has happened to change Snape, I don't doubt he will "rub it in" pretty well that Sirius got what he deserved, etc. I find it sad that Snape acts more like Harry's peer than his professor in such situations.

I believe Remus will become the voice of reason where James and Sirius are concerned. He is now the only person remaining who knows the real truth of what they were. Because he loved them even more than Harry himself could do, I think Harry will be more able to accept his rational and balanced picture of their virtues as well as their flaws.

Remus alone is really capable of making Harry understand that, while James and Sirius were hardly perfect and frequently did stupid and thoughtless things, they are still worthy of his love and respect. Remus certainly knew their flaws--he was and IS able to look at them and see exactly what they were--yet it has never affected his love or esteem for the two of them one bit.

Remus may never succeed in getting Harry to acknowledge Snape's true worth, but he may be able to bring about a moratorium on nastiness between them ... for the time being, at least.

Solitaire


Elanor - Oct 6, 2004 5:29 am (#2737 of 2956)
Great thoughts everyone! What is truly amazing is that when you say something about Snape, the opposite may be also true and makes sense too. On the alchemy thread, we were discussing the snake symbol. It is, by itself, a pair of opposites because it puts together the values of night and day, good and evil, life and death... It is one and several at the same time. We know that Snape was in Slytherin since he was student at Hogwarts, so the snake's symbol is fully appropriate for him too and fits very well with what we know (or more exactly don't know) about him.

I just wanted to come back also to the fight between Sirius and Snape in 12 Grimmault place's kitchen. Loony Luna wrote: "It is MY house" Sirius says to Severus. Severus gets angry and flushed. Sirius inherited all of the Black family wealth and Snape got nothing - not a father, not a dime or a respected name. Snape could be his mother's maiden name."

That is an interesting possibility but there is also another one. Snape flushed there, which is rather rare for him. With all his self-control the insult must have been serious to make him flush. If we read it carefully it seems that all their fight is full of hidden meanings. So, I was wondering if this sentence wasn't related to the fact that both Sirius and James seemed to have wealthy families and not Snape. It was maybe one of the things they tormented Snape with when they were at Hogwarts and Sirius was alluding to that old insult. When Sirius called him "Snivellus", he refered to that time that's why I think the rest of Sirius'words refer to that time too. But I can be wrong...;-)


Solitaire - Oct 6, 2004 5:48 am (#2738 of 2956)
That could also be true, Elanor. I find it interesting that when they are together, both Snape and Sirius are 16 again--two immature schoolboys threatening and insulting each other to the point of coming to blows (they almost had a wand duel in 12GP). It's easy to see why Harry--who already loathes Snape from his own personal experiences with him--might fail to treat Snape with the respect accordant to his position, when he frequently sees Snape act like a jealous or petulant kid. I realize Sirius is behaving exactly the same way, but Harry's feelings are different there--he loves Sirius. I'm not really sure that Sirius and Harry have ever been in a situation where true respect was an issue.

I think Snape's Pensieve scene gave Harry a very human and not too appealing picture of what his father and Sirius were capable of doing. We know what he saw bothered him, because he risked being caught in Umbridge's office to talk to Sirius and Remus about it. Right now, Harry is raw with grief. I believe he will come to a rational love and understanding of Sirius in time.

Even if he does, however, I'm not sure that will change how he feels about Snape. Snape may have to actually make some gesture or do some deed to bring about a change of feeling on Harry's part, and I am not sure he cares enough to bother.

Solitaire


LooneyLuna - Oct 6, 2004 5:51 am (#2739 of 2956)
Solitare - Forgive my ignorance, but I have not read any of the Arthur legend (only have seen Monty Python's Holy Grail). I need to do some reading about Mordred and the Black Prince.

Elanor, I agree. It might be just that Snape is envious of rich wizarding families. But after rereading their argument in 12 GP's kitchen, I have to say that Sirius and Severus really know how to push each others buttons - like siblings (or half siblings). Then in Snape's worst memory, "Well," said James, appearing to deliberate the point, "it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean..." Now, James being Sirius' best friend would know if Sirius and Snape were related in some way. He would defend his best friend.

There seems to be many well-kept secrets in the Wizarding World, I would not be surprised if Sirius and Snape having the same father is one of them.

Regarding Harry learning about his father and the Marauders from Snape's worst memory, I think that is a shame that Harry feels the need to invade another's thoughts to gain information. If people would just talk to him about his parents and their personalities/lives, Harry wouldn't need to poke around in Pensieves.


Solitaire - Oct 6, 2004 5:54 am (#2740 of 2956)
Looney, I am not even sure that there IS such a pairing. I think there have been Black Knights and Black Princes in some of the Arthurian legends; whether Mordred was even connected to them, however, is dubious. I was just kind of wondering ... because if Snape and Sirius were half-brothers, Snape might provide the missing Mordred figure that was mentioned in a different thread. I wish I could remember where it was. Alas ... earwax.

BTW, I totally agree with your statement about Harry and Pensieves. I wonder, though, if his foray into Snape's Pensieve might not have cured him of that nosy habit. He didn't exactly like what he saw, did he?

Solitaire


Potions Mistress - Oct 6, 2004 6:57 am (#2741 of 2956)
I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with the idea that Snape and Sirius are half-brothers. It would explain some things, such as why Harry saw Snape's father yelling at his mother (presuming those were his parents). Maybe something about an affair? But, there are also a million and one other things that could explain that and numerous other scenes.

I don't think Snape has the emotional maturity to show some respect for Harry and not rub salt in an open wound when it comes to Sirius's death. Yes, I can understand why Snape would think Sirius got what he deserved (whether that's true or not), but all he has now to antagonize is Harry and Lupin--and I doubt Lupin will rise to Snape's bait. Harry, on the other hand...

As far as Harry not poking around in Pensieves anymore, I would hope that by the age of 16 he would have enough respect and caution to not be putting his nose in possibly dangerous magical objects, but as we have seen from CS, GOF, and OotP, his curiosity (sp?) sometimes gets the better of him. (Makes me wonder about the mirror from Sirius.)

~pm


Ann - Oct 6, 2004 7:39 am (#2742 of 2956)
It's been suggested before that Snape is the illegitimate half brother of either James or Sirius, but I don't think that's necessary--he just grew up in an abusive, probably poorer, family. The wealth of James and Sirius is just another way (in addition to talent and intelligence) that they had advantages over their schoolmates, including Snape. (Interestingly, Harry's early experience mirrors Snape's; but, starting with PS/SS, his situation mirrors JKR's now!)

The interesting thing about Snape and money, though, is that if he was poor as a kid (and now?) it's hard to understand why he supports Draco, the spoiled little rich kid, when he taunts Ron about his family's poverty. Of course, Ron's parents love and support him, which may be something that Draco and Snape never got. Perhaps Sirius's taunt about it being "his house" suggests that his parents also had a house that he might have inherited, but that they left it to someone else? Or threw him out of it? In other words, that Sirius is taunting Snape not about his poverty but about his lack of family support? Whatever it is, I certainly agree that Sirius got his goat.

Thanks for the points, TBE!


Solitaire - Oct 6, 2004 9:51 am (#2743 of 2956)
LOL Ann! Mirrors and goats! Every time I see the word goat, I now think of Aberforth!

Speaking of Mirrors, PM, I don't believe we have seen the last of the broken mirror, either ... or the Mirror of Erised, for that matter.


Weeny Owl - Oct 6, 2004 9:57 am (#2744 of 2956)
Sirius's comment about it being his house made me think that it was a continuation of something they had argued about before regarding the use of the Black house as headquarters for the Order.

We don't know that Snape's family had no money. Sometimes society looks at abusive situations as happening only to lower-class families. Middle- and upper-class families are frequently looked upon as not sinking to the level of abuse. It's a stereotype that still exists today, even though statistics show that it's wrong. Snape's parents could easily have been wealthy, but with such a nasty specimen for a father, Snape could still have grown up in an abusive home.

With Snape and Sirius, there is such a strong rivalry that any little thing gets magnified way out of proportion to where it becomes a major issue.

Sirius feels that he can't do anything for the Order. Snape comes in and starts telling Harry what to do. Sirius wants to protect Harry while at the same time putting Snape in his place, so he reminds Snape that he has no authority there. I can picture them butting heads in Order meetings, and Sirius reminding Snape (and everyone else) that while he can't go out and actively work for the Order, he has given them a safe place to hold meetings. Snape would counter with sarcastic comments about how that's the only thing Sirius can do.

I doubt if Snape and Sirius are half-brothers because JKR isn't going to introduce something like an affair into the series, and I don't see any way they could be half-brothers any other way.


Ann - Oct 6, 2004 2:49 pm (#2745 of 2956)
Weeny Owl, I certainly agree with you that just because Snape's father is abusive, he doesn't necessarily come from a poor family. On the other hand, he does wear his underwear until it's gray....


Potions Mistress - Oct 6, 2004 2:52 pm (#2746 of 2956)
I think I get what you're saying, Weeny Owl: not only is the strong and bitter rivalry between Sirius and Snape causing such an issue over the house, but Snape also does not have the kind of authority he enjoys at Hogwarts at 12GP. Yes? As for them being brothers, I kind of doubt it myself, but I would not completely disregard some kind of blood relation (cousins of some sort would be my guess).

~pm


Grimber - Oct 6, 2004 5:19 pm (#2747 of 2956)
Brothers unlikely but don't forget what Sirius said to Harry.

"The pure-bloods families are all interrelated," " If you're only going to let your sons and daughters marry purebloods your choise is very limited, there are hardly any of us left...."

As he goes on we find out hes related to Tonks, Molly, the Malfoys, Bellatrix. If Snapes family was no differnt in pure-blood thinking, then somewhere along the line they are related. Doubt its any form of inheritance or relation that they are at eachother like they were.

If Snape can't get past his anger for James Potter, whom is dead, he definatly won't get past his anger with Sirus who is still alive. Have to remeber too while in Azkaban Sirus couldn;t have any happy thoughts, so All he had to dewel on was his bad thoughts ( deaths of his best friend and others of the order at the hands of DEs). Not soon to get over that either.


Emiko - Oct 6, 2004 5:52 pm (#2748 of 2956)
If all Sirius' been thinking of for the last 12 years has been miserable thoughts, it must be hard to go back to thinking positive again...

But back to the point- There are more types of brothers than just blood. In many senses, a brother is someone you have an intimate connection with. Usually that's in a positive sense (I think James and Sirius) but, I'd still say that Sirius and Snape have a connection- they do know eachother's little buttons, which means they must know eachother pretty well, however much they might hate it.


Weeny Owl - Oct 6, 2004 7:39 pm (#2749 of 2956)
I think I get what you're saying, Weeny Owl: not only is the strong and bitter rivalry between Sirius and Snape causing such an issue over the house, but Snape also does not have the kind of authority he enjoys at Hogwarts at 12GP. Yes? As for them being brothers, I kind of doubt it myself, but I would not completely disregard some kind of blood relation (cousins of some sort would be my guess).

Yes, Potions Mistress, their rivalry erupts over anything either would consider a slight.

I can easily see them being related by blood, but not being half-brothers. Cousins would definitely be possible.

As for his undies, that could indicate poverty, definitely, but it could also be for other reasons.

I'm not saying his family wasn't poor, just that JKR hasn't specifically said either way.


haymoni - Oct 7, 2004 6:03 am (#2750 of 2956)
The zapping-flies-off-the-ceiling bit made me think they might not have had a lot of money.

I'm not saying wealthy people don't have flies in their houses, but to be laying on your bed zapping them...ugh!
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popkin - Oct 7, 2004 6:51 am (#2751 of 2956)
Who was he picturing when zapping flies? His father? His school rivals? Himself?


LooneyLuna - Oct 7, 2004 7:51 am (#2752 of 2956)
Argh - it's frustrating because we have seen some of Snape's memories, but we have absolutely no narrative from Snape as to what they mean. All we can do is speculate - JKR - you are tricksy!

Disregard what I've said about Sirius and Snape being half brothers for a moment. Take the man yelling at the woman memory. Could Snape's mom have been a witch and his dad a muggle? Maybe Snape's "filthy, muggle father" (to quote Voldemort) left him to be raised in near poverty by his witch mother (who was related in some distant cousin way to the Black family). Sirius' family, being pure blood fanatics would have talked down about Snape's family and refused to help them. At the same time, Snape's mom talked bad about the Black family, adding to the animosity. We know that Slytherins don't HAVE to be pure bloods to be sorted into Slytherin. Snape could be a half blood, just like the Dork Lard, which maybe why the Voldemort protects Snape's identity as a DE.

Hope that makes sense!


*EDIT*** Snape's half blood status would explain why he or his mom were not on the Black Family Tree, if they are related in some way.


Elanor - Oct 7, 2004 8:11 am (#2753 of 2956)
Wow LooneyLuna! I love that theory! It sounds really plausible and would explain a lot of things. 20 points for your house!

BTW, the contrary could be true too: his mother could have been a muggle and his father a wizard, related to the Black family (through his mother's side). It would work too, especially because we know that a lot of the Blacks have a "charming" nature, so it could fit well with his father's behavior. He could have then criticized his wife for being "banned" from the Black family because of her, with the same consequences you mentioned.


Potions Mistress - Oct 7, 2004 8:32 am (#2754 of 2956)
I can definitely see Snape from from wizard/muggle parentage, which could make he and Sirius related, but blasted from the family tree.

For the moment, let us assume that Snape is somehow related to the Blacks. If he were from pureblood parentage, his fight against Voldemort could've gotten him blasted from the family tree as well--I don't think there is mention of Snape either way on the Black family tree, when Sirius is talking about it, but I have a feeling the JKR left that ambiguous on purpose.

~pm

PS: I don't remember the zapping-the-flies scene and don't have my book with me. Would somebody kindly refresh my memory?


Elanor - Oct 7, 2004 8:48 am (#2755 of 2956)
Potion Mistress, it is in OotP, p.521 Paperback edition:

"Snape staggered - his wand flew upwards, away from Harry - and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner... a greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies...a girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick-"


LooneyLuna - Oct 7, 2004 9:46 am (#2756 of 2956)
Elanor, thanks for the points! You are right, it could have been Snape's mother that was the muggle (as she cowered in fear from her wizard husband). I think Snape and Voldemort mirror each other in some way, which is why they are/were accepting of one another.

JKR obscured the Black Family Tree tapestry during Christmas at 12GP by placing a Christmas Tree in front of it. I'm sure she did that so Harry (and us) couldn't get a better look at it. Perhaps in book 6, he'll spend some time looking it over, and he'll make some startling discoveries.


Solitaire - Oct 7, 2004 9:56 am (#2757 of 2956)
Interesting ideas, Looney, Elanor and PM! I do not find a Snape/Black family connection at all hard to see. I can see Snape being blasted off the family tree, if there is a Muggle in his background. If so, that might account for the odd look Lily gives him when he (I think it is Snape) calls her a "filthy little Mudblood." As close as she was to Sirius and James, I imagine they would have clued her in on his heritage, if there was some connection.

Solitaire


Ann - Oct 7, 2004 11:10 am (#2758 of 2956)
I agree with you all that Snape is probably not a pure blood. And I think it must have been his mother who was a muggle--would a muggle husband physically attack a witch? I don't think it would be a very wise thing to do, given the potential for wandless magic in emotional circumstances!

JKR said you had to be at least half-blood to become a Death Eater, except in very special circumstances (I paraphrase). I wonder what those very special circumstances might be, and if perhaps Snape qualified? It's true that he calls Lily a "mudblood," but of course attacking people who represent the parts of yourself that you don't like is a common fault....


Eponine - Oct 7, 2004 11:15 am (#2759 of 2956)
From her Edinburg chat

Apart from Harry, Snape is my favourite character because he is so complex and I just love him. Can he see the Thestrals, and if so, why? Also, is he a pure blood wizard?

Snape?s ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle born, because Muggle borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances. You have some information about his ancestry there.

She doesn't answer the question, except to say he's not Muggle-born. So there is a very good chance he is a half blood.


Ann - Oct 7, 2004 12:02 pm (#2760 of 2956)
Thanks, Eponine! I guess that's where I read that! (Ooops!)


Potions Mistress - Oct 7, 2004 12:14 pm (#2761 of 2956)
Looney, I think you're right that we haven't seen the last of the Black family tree. And I think Snape will play some significant role in it. I would also have to agree with Ann--if Snape has a muggle parent, it would probably be his mother--I can't imagine something not happening (wandless magic-wise) to Snape's father if his mother were a witch. And I get the impression that that particular scene was played out constantly in the Snape household.

~pm


Grimber - Oct 7, 2004 12:25 pm (#2762 of 2956)
If Snape is half-blood, that would put him in a possible possition to be the half-blood prince? Do we know that whom ever JKR is refering to is suppost to be realy a form of some WW royalty?

Thast could explain a few things why he was allowed in as a DE if a half-blood. Snape is discribed with hawk like facial features and that seems to come up allot when discribing aristicratic people in other liturature.

Guess we will find out next book Smile


Prefect Marcus - Oct 7, 2004 3:44 pm (#2763 of 2956)
Edited by Oct 7, 2004 4:45 pm
Fact #1: There are Muggle-born (mudbloods), mixed parentage (half-bloods), and pure bloods.

Fact #2: Snape called Lily a "filthy little mud-blood". That highly suggests that he is not one.

Fact #3: Rowling says he is not muggle-born. That confirms Fact #2.

Fact #4: Snape was a Death Eater. This highly suggests that he could be considered pure-blood.

Fact #5: Snape had a memory of a woman being berated by a man. Assuming that they are his parents (no guarantees there), this cannot be used to imply anything one way or the other. If you assume that a man would never be cruel to a magical wife, then Tom Riddle's muggle father would never of dared dump his magical wife like he did, would he?

Fact #6: Rowling said Snape's ancestory was hinted at. From what I see, the only clear hint is his former status as a Deatheater, which implies that he is a pure-blood.

Does anyone else have any other hint otherwise?


Eponine - Oct 7, 2004 4:03 pm (#2764 of 2956)
Fact #7: JKR has confirmed that Snape was in Slytherin which is a house known for its pure-blood snobbery. This could also hint that he is a pure-blood.


popkin - Oct 7, 2004 4:17 pm (#2765 of 2956)
It could also hint that he would want to hide his half-blood heritage. If Snape were a half-blood, he would not want his Slytherin housemates to know it. I think Lily knew that he was half-blood, and so was particularly upset with him for his mudblood jab. I also think that Snape knew that Lily knew (and that Lily knew that Snape knew that she knew), and that he was resentful of her even though she kept his secret.


Prefect Marcus - Oct 7, 2004 4:49 pm (#2766 of 2956)
So you are saying that he was so desparate to keep Lily from spilling the beans, that he insulted her in public?


hellocello3200 - Oct 7, 2004 5:08 pm (#2767 of 2956)
I have some doubts about Snape being half-blood. I always thought of Snape as someone who didn't have much going for him growing up (He was probably poor, disliked and had the complexion of a cafeteria pizza.) The one thing he did have was a good family name, if not a good family and he clung to the the belief that that was important and used it as a way to insult those he felt inferior to (Lily).

However If Snape was from a old wizarding family but Had a muggle mother and she was abused by his father, his father might have killed her or something really horrible like that.( I believe there was some discussion awhile ago about if Snape could see thestrals)


Potions Mistress - Oct 7, 2004 5:09 pm (#2768 of 2956)
So you are saying that he was so desparate to keep Lily from spilling the beans, that he insulted her in public--Prefect Marcus

I thought he said out of (mis-directed) anger, but I could be wrong.

I think that Snape is a half-blood, with a pure-blood parent. Thus, he would not be shown on the Black family tree, with the "offending" parent blasted off. At first I thought that Snape could've been blasted off by working against LV, but I would think as a spy, nobody would know he had switched loyalties. But I have a new question now: if Snape is somehow related to the Blacks, whether it be as a half-blood or pure-blood, why has nobody mentioned this to Harry? Yes, Sirius might not have been happy with having Snape as family, but I would think that surely, somebody would know (like DD, maybe?). Is something gained by not acknowleding this relation? Another thing to ponder...

~pm


LooneyLuna - Oct 8, 2004 5:04 am (#2769 of 2956)
Potions Mistress, Sirius didn't tell Harry about being cousins with Bellatrix until Harry was looking at the Tapestry, and Sirius had plenty of opportunity to speak the truth. It seems that in OotP, the adults didn't seem either to trust Harry with information or feel he needed to know anything until after the fact. Hopefully, that will change in HBP.

I'm sure if there is some family connection between Sirius and Severus, no one feels Harry needs to know about it and possibly, Severus would want to keep it a secret. Would Harry's perspective of Snape change if he knew Snape was cousins with Sirius?


haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 5:35 am (#2770 of 2956)
Sirius was clearly not very happy about being related to Bella. It is not surprising to me that he kept it quiet.

I really doubt that he and Severus are related - he and Bella referred to one another as "Cousin" as they were battling.

I just think he or Snape would have tossed that out already - "My beloved cousin" - in a very sarcastic tone, mind you.

I would think Snape would have made it clear in POA that they were cousins - "How I wanted to be the one to catch you, dear cousin." - or something like that.


septentrion - Oct 8, 2004 6:39 am (#2771 of 2956)
Maybe Snape is related to the Potters, not the Blacks ?


popkin - Oct 8, 2004 7:53 am (#2772 of 2956)
If he is, then Dumbledore doesn't know about it. He tells us that the Dursleys are the only relatives Harry has. I believe he is being perfectly honest.

Prefect Marcus [/b]- Oct 7, 2004 5:49 pm (#2767 of 2772) So you are saying that he was so desparate to keep Lily from spilling the beans, that he insulted her in public?

Snape would know that even if he insulted Lily in public, if she had made a promise to him not to divulge what she knew, she would never betray his trust.


LooneyLuna - Oct 8, 2004 8:11 am (#2773 of 2956)
Snape could be related to the Potter Family through marriage and not blood. Still, it's Lily's family blood that protects Harry, not James' family blood so even if Snape were a Potter blood relative, that wouldn't matter where Harry's protection is concerned.

As Voldemort hates the muggle part of himself and projects that hatred onto the world, Snape does the same thing, which is why by insulting Lily, he draws attention away from his own muggle heritage. He's in Slytherin, people assume he's a pure blood. He insults muggle-borns when he can, people assume he's a pure blood.


Fawksey girl - Oct 8, 2004 9:03 am (#2774 of 2956)
"He also lets slip that Lupin is a werewolf, despite that he must have been instructed not to do so" This comment, and I apologize for not knowing its author, was made in reference to whether or not Snape is a traitor. After thinking about it, I realized that firing Lupin allowed him to be more hands on with the OOTP, he was not bound by the rules of the ministry or the faculty. He was able to be more available and helpful to Harry, and I wonder if this was DD or Snape's idea, and not a spiteful gesture.


Ann - Oct 8, 2004 9:16 am (#2775 of 2956)
I don't think belonging to Slytherin says anything about whether one is pure blood, half-blood, or muggle-born. Remember that on her website, JKR talks about Mafalda, a cousin of the Weasleys, who was sorted into Slytherin (but then removed from the book, presumably for unrelated reasons). She was the daughter of a (presumably full blood) squib and a muggle. That makes her a half-blood at best. I don't know what wizarding standards would be regarding the children of squibs, but I suspect even pure-blood squib ancestry isn't something the DEs would admire much. Slytherin is not the DEs, and I'm assuming we are going to find out that there are some good and noble Slytherins --besides Snape!


legolas - Oct 8, 2004 10:34 am (#2776 of 2956)
This is just an alternative thought and I know its weak(doing bubblehead charm as I type).

Could the man the man shouting at the woman in Snapes memory be him when he was younger? Could the wife and child that he had in the past have been killed by DE activity? Could this have turned Snape into a good guy? Would Harry have recognised the man as Snape or was he so surprised to break into Snapes memory that he did not connect? I mean a muggle parent. I can only really envision Snape being pure blood because I cant see a half blood being quite as condesending when they share a similar ancestory.


Fawksey girl - Oct 8, 2004 1:08 pm (#2777 of 2956)
Although I see where you are coming from, the major flaw that I have to point out is that Voldemort while a half blood himself, considered Salazar Slytherin's work to be noble and he continued it himself. Sometimes, the inherent flaws that we despise are what we pick on about others.


Solitaire - Oct 8, 2004 8:00 pm (#2778 of 2956)
While I do not know how likely it is, I do think it is possible that Snape could have a muggle parent. I don't think we can take Sirius's neglect of mentioning Cousin Snape as a sure sign that they aren't related. Sirius didn't want to claim many on his family tree.

I agree with Looney and Fawksey that Snape's nasty remarks to Lily could just be a "blind" to keep others from learning about his own heritage.

I do think, Fawksey girl, that you may be reaching a bit to try and make Snape's nasty little "revelation" about Remus into a noble act. Snape was suffering from sour grapes after Sirius slipped through his fingers. He wanted revenge, and he got it against the only one available to him--Remus. Boo! Hiss!

Solitaire


Sano - Oct 8, 2004 8:19 pm (#2779 of 2956)
This was posted from the new thread area, I didn't know where to post it. I already posted it in the "What's in a name?" thread, but I decided (since this has to do with mainly Snape) to post it in here too. Anyways, it was called: Why Severus Snape will betray the "Good Guys".

Before I start this long theory, I just want to say one thing: Sorry Gina Wink(I read these forums more than post, so I do know more about you all then you would think Smile).

But in all honesty, this is just a guess after reading the book "The Prince" by Machiavelli, and after reading one of his examples on how a prince should behave and act if he wishes to keep his rule.

Now, this said example happened to be one of a Roman emperor, better known as Severus(don't know if that is his first or last name, the book does not specify). Anyways, this Severus guy is used as an example as to how a prince but be feared by some, but not hated by all because if a prince is hated by all then they will be disposed of very easily. Now in this example, Severus takes his army and comes to Rome, and the Senate, out of fear, elects him emperor. The problem is that 2 other fellows, one by the name of Nigrinus, and the other Albinus (looks sorta like Albus, does it not?) had already claimed the throne. Severus, ever so cleverly, knew that he could not rule with both of them still in the picture, but to declare hostility on both of them would be a very bad idea, as mentioned earlier, and he would not have success. So instead, he decided to attack Nigrinus and deceive Albinus. He ended up klling Nigrinus and then afterwards acused Albinus of charges of planning to betray him by assassination, and had him killed.

Now what on earth does this have to do with Severus Snape betraying the "Good Guys", you ask? Well I'll tell you why, it's because I believe the stories are very similar, and for more than one reasons. First, if you can't tell, I believe Severus = Snape (duh!), Nigrinus = Voldemort, and Albinus = Dumbledore. I also believe that by killing Nigrinus (now heres where it gets fishy, but I believe this to be a Jo allegory, and by "killing" Nigrinus/Voldemort, it was really betraying him (being a spy) and basically ridding himself of his body, nothing more than a pathetic spirit.

Now, the next part comes with the death of Albinus. I believe this symbolizes that in the 2nd war, Snape will show his true colors and somehow lead to the death of Dumbledore, whether by betraying him with information or leading him into a trap, I do not know.

Now this is just a crazy theory, but when I was reading "The Prince", I just could not think these coincidences were merely that, coincidences. I'm not saying Jo stole these ideas, but I'm sure she could've gotten inspiration for what might happen later in the story from things that have happened in history.

Sorry for the long post!


rambkowalczyk - Oct 9, 2004 3:15 am (#2780 of 2956)
Sano,Say it isn't so!, I don't want it to be true but,it is a possibility. Consistent with Nigellus saying Slytherin save their own skins.

If Snape is a half-blood it doesn't necessarily mean one of his parents are Muggleborn. It could be one of his grandparents or great grandparents. By definition of the Malfoys Harry is a half-blood because of Lily's grandparents.

Legolas, your idea is possible. After all the small dark haired boy in the corner isn't described with a hook nose. Maybe hook noses are something a child grows into.


Ann - Oct 9, 2004 7:47 am (#2781 of 2956)
A very full account of the machinations and reign of Septimius Severus can be found here. (I think "Nigellus" is the diminuitive form of "Niger.") It's an odd historical accident, actually, that Septimius Severus's two rivals were named white (Albinus) and black (Niger). Just think what we'd make of that if it were in a Harry Potter book! If JKR really is using a historical model here, Sirius might be a better candidate for the Niger figure, it seems to me. But I'm not a Classicist, as some on this forum are....

By the way, this connection would explain why Sirius' great-great-etc. uncle, the former headmaster of Hogwarts, is called Phineus Nigellus! Not only does Nigellus mean "Black," but Phineas is the Latin form of an ancient Egyptian name meaning "the Nubian" (i.e., from the upper Nile in more central Africa, south of Egypt).

But JKR may not be following a historical model. She could simply be playing with languages.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 9, 2004 8:00 am (#2782 of 2956)
"but Phineas is the Latin form of an ancient Egyptian name meaning "the Nubian"

Isn't a Nubian a breed of goat?


Sano - Oct 9, 2004 8:08 am (#2783 of 2956)
Maybe they are related to Aberforth? Smile


Ann - Oct 9, 2004 8:11 am (#2784 of 2956)
TBE: "Isn't a Nubian a breed of goat?"

Nubia is a place (northern Sudan), so there are probably lots of things from there that are called "Nubian"; but more usually it is used for the people. Still, a goat? Well, with JKR, who knows?


Good Evans - Oct 9, 2004 8:24 am (#2785 of 2956)
Nubians (if my ancient egyption history serves me) are usually described with very dark skin almost black (certainly far darker than other skins in the area) so phineas nigellus black - is black black black!!! odd one Jo! reminds me of the "cat and the canary" where bob hopes character was called laurence lawrence lawrence (his parents had no imagination). Sorry I am off topic.....


Good Evans - Oct 9, 2004 8:30 am (#2786 of 2956)
Back to topic, I was listening to OOTP and snapes memory stuck in my head a bit, why did we see this? Was it his parents or as discussed above was it Snape himself, I assumed parents and he the small boy as it seemed to move chronologically but hmnnn....

I feel sure Jo had a reason for putting this in and not just to show a difficult unhappy childhood. Perhaps this is the reason he took a great interest in the dark arts, lack of a stable, loving home? Love could redeam Severus? I know its been discussed before but I hadnt picked up a connection about the memory, leading to Snapes hatred and sadness in life and maybe his ability to change if he just found a good woman?? rambling now but I think there may be something here.... apologies if done to death I havent read right back to the start of the thread.


TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 9, 2004 8:52 am (#2787 of 2956)
Ah hah! I was right about the goats!

"Nubian goats are a domestic breed originating in Egypt and now farmed throughout the world. Goats are adapted to habitats including savanna, desert, scrub, and mountains. They have an efficient four-chambered stomach that allows them to survive on a low-quality plant diet. Their digestive process also allows them to eat large quantities of food quickly. This reduces foraging time during which they are exposed to predators. Nubians and other goats are an important food source for people around the world."

Now to relate this to the topic...oh yes! Being potions master and using bezoars found in the stomach of goats to counteract posion, stands to reason he knows how to, hmm, harvest these himself?

I did remember that from 4-H. A blast from the past...way past. ...toddles off in search of a butterbeer.

Edit: Last note on goats, for now :-) When I did google search, the first site that came up was named Alchemy Acres...


Solitaire - Oct 9, 2004 8:57 am (#2788 of 2956)
Good Evans: "phineas nigellus black - is black black black!!!"

Well, in a sense, he is Black, isn't he? He is Sirius Black's great-great-grandfather!

Edit: Did I misread your post, and that is what you meant? I guess I got over-enthused! LOL


Potions Mistress - Oct 9, 2004 8:59 pm (#2789 of 2956)
Latin and potions and goats, oh my!! You have to admit, those are some mighty odd quasi-connections going on there. Wonder if any of that points to Sirius and Severus being related. But, I'm also very sleepy and need to go to bed, so the connections I'm seeing could just be exhaustion-induced delusions. Will think about this more when I'm awake. Good night, all!

~pm


SHEla WOLFsbane - Oct 11, 2004 6:09 pm (#2790 of 2956)
Okay, this may be out there for some but bare with me. I think that Harry unnerves Snape to some degree. In OotP we see Snape muttering in front of Harry along with that whole tracing his mouth thing. There is more but I don't have any of the books with me to sight anything.

I just got done reading books 3-5 and now I have all kinds of thoughts running through my head... Dumbledore once (and I think only once- so far) told Harry, "That is between Professor Snape and myself." When Harry was asking why he trusted Snape. Now I got to wondering if a life debt was involved some how...

Also, at the end of GoF when Harry is in the hospital ward, and says he can name names, Snape made a sharp movement when Harry said Lucius Malfoy. Why the movement at Malfoys name? Not that I really think this, but, (really I don't think this but thought I'd throw it out there and see if that finally got it out of my head.) What if Snape was at the grave yard? I'm sure I'm stretching it a bit, but I've had stranger thoughts that I've read somebody else post, so what the hay!

Sorry for not sticking with the flow of the posts but I'm over 1,000 behind and didn't want to wait til I caught up to add these tid bits, I might have forgotten them by then as a computer isn't always available to me. Sorry again!


SHE WOLF


Grimber - Oct 11, 2004 10:59 pm (#2791 of 2956)
Snapes name is mud with Voldemort. Snape wouldn't dare be near him for anything. Snape left the DE's before Voldemort attacked the Potters and spyed against them to the Order.

Snape was the one theat stood against Quirrell all of harrys first year, confounding Voldemorts attempts to get at the SS. Remember by near the start of the school year, just after Quirrell failed to steal the stone from Gringots, Voldemort had already joined himself to Quirrell as you seen at the end. So Voldemort would know it was snape that interfeared in his tries to get the Stone and kill Harry.

For making it to the graveyard that night the big issue of time. Snape would have had to left the quiddatch field at the time the Mark was activated to summon the DE's, get off the Hogwarts grounds. Dissaperate, be at the graveyard for the entire event and what ever takes place after Harry portkeyed out. Then get back in time apperating back , then cross the grounds and find DD and McGonigal when the 3 of them save Harry from Barty Crouch. This all happend at a rather quick pace. Snape would IMO not the time to do it in ( and Time turners are highly regulated and monitored by MoM)

Why Snape reacted to malfoys name as he did is because Snape knows malfoy well and seems like hes surprised Malfoy appeared for the summons.

We also got this one line from Voldemort in the graveyard:gofp651 "... One,who I belive has left me forever ... he will be killed, of course..."

The place Snape use to hold in the DE circle? Macnair,Crabbe, Goyle,Nott, 3 dead DE's,Karkaroff(who ran), Snape?,Barty Crouch

being a DE is till death, either in service or death by order or by own hand of Voldemort.

The real question about Snape to ask is:

How can someone leave the DE's like Snape did, Spy for the Order, yet retain 'friendly' relationship to some of the known DE's. Especialy like the Malfoys? 2 possible answers 1. Snape is lying and realy still works for Voldemort. But doubtful he could pull this off under DD. 2. More DE's (but not all) than just Snape wants to see Voldemort brought down ( the DE's that didn't goto Azkaban, that pled they were under Voldemorts control, all lead by malfoy).

Why would DEs wan Volds downfall? What do DEs get from serving Voldemort... only the chance to kill those they hate. they don;t get the power and possission many are after. they just get the fear associated to DE's. Not enough for a man like Malfoy. Also They are on that pure blood kick. some DEs know Voldemort is only half-blood ( see how DEs react when people like harry say it in front of them. some are calm as 'this is nothing new' others go nuts. Must be terrible to someone like malfoy to have to crawl on the ground and kiss the hem of a half blood wizards robes, no matter his power.


haymoni - Oct 12, 2004 5:51 am (#2792 of 2956)
Grimber - Snape seems very proud of his Occlumency abilities. I believe that is exactly what his task was when Dumbledore sent him out at the end of GOF. He had to go to Voldy and lie through his teeth.

I do think Harry makes Snape nervous. He obviously knows the boy is important - how does he train him without raising suspicions?

Re-read the section of conversation that Harry overhears between Snape and Quirrel in the forest - Nowhere does Snape say that Quirrel should be loyal to Dumbledore. He could have been arguing Voldy's side just as easily.

I do not believe that Snape was at the graveyard. That is why his task was even harder. He has to explain to Voldy why he didn't come when he was called, he has to explain why he has chosen to be employed by Dumbledore and he has to explain why he didn't blast that pesky Potter kid to smithereens in the first Potions class.

I can hear Ricky Ricardo right now:

"Snaaape...you got lots of asplaining to do!"


Grimber - Oct 12, 2004 9:06 am (#2793 of 2956)
Wonder why I see allot of the time that people think that to spy on Voldemort, Snape has to actual go in front of him. Too much James Bond I think Smile

Most spy work is done through 2nd and 3rd party contacts ( in this case Snapes contacts in the DE's and those that they associate with) and through observation of details that are overlooked by those trying to hide something.

Remember that Voldemort "is a highly skilled Legitamist" in Snapes own words. He almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. And we know Voldemort is so skilled he can break memory charms that were used to remove/hide memories. Snape would even be hard pressed to hide the truth. IF any of the other DEs had been plotting against Voldemort, they would sureadly have been discovered by now. Malfoy may have some resistance but doubt ones like Macnair, Nott, Avery, Crabbe, Goyle ( all whom seem to be in Malfoys little inner circle of things)would have such resistance in Voldemorts pressance.

This is where I thought that the only way these DEs could hide thier plans was by use of a Secret-Keeper ( like the Potters tried to use to hide thier location, Like DD is Secret Keeper of the Order). Snape being strongest in Occlumency of thier group is the best choice. But even his skill , over time he would eventualy break and the DEs cannot protect Snape directly without giving away they are up to soemthing. They send Snape to the only wizard that CAN protect him, DD.

What makes me wonder, did DD take the lesser of 2 evils and is secretly working with Malfoy to overthrow Voldemort? Or did Snape develop real loyalty to DD and then uses those DE's need for his secrecy to get information that the order needs

Malfoys attitudes and action, to me, keep pointing in the direction he only suffers taking orders of Voldemorts because hes got no other choice. hes definatly not finatical like the DEs are that were in Azkaban and he seems to be far more knowlagable about who and what Voldemort is than many other DE's. All leads me to stick to the first DE plot. they made an uneasy but needed alliance with DD to defeat Voldemort, but thats as far as thier alliance goes.

Will be intresting to see what exactly happens with those DEs in book 6 that were caught in the MoM. As long as those DEs are not in contact with Voldemort, DDs intelligance ( through Snape) will be severly limited.


Weeny Owl - Oct 12, 2004 9:35 am (#2794 of 2956)
Remember that Voldemort "is a highly skilled Legitamist" in Snapes own words. He almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. And we know Voldemort is so skilled he can break memory charms that were used to remove/hide memories. Snape would even be hard pressed to hide the truth.

Even though Voldemort is a highly skilled Legilimens, Snape also says, "It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly." (The bold is mine.)

Yes, Voldemort can break memory charms, but Occlumency isn't a charm but a skill. It's a skill similar to what is needed to resist the Imperius Curse.

As for why Snape needs to actually appear before Voldemort, it isn't too much James Bond at all. If Snape didn't go to Voldemort when called, he would be dead by now. He couldn't hang around Death Eaters if there were a price on his head. Lucius Malfoy wouldn't speak highly of him if Voldemort thought he was a traitor.

It's possible that some Death Eaters would like Voldemort defeated, but it seems that it would be a bit complicated if JKR were to introduce a sub-plot where Snape is a Secret Keeper for a band of rogue Death Eaters. With only two books left, JKR has to introduce the backstory of the Marauders and Snape, deal with the subject of Voldemort's birth, get all of the students through summers and two more years of school, write a bit about romantic entanglements, and finally get Voldemort defeated. There's just too much to cover to introduce too many sub-plots at this point.


haymoni - Oct 12, 2004 10:34 am (#2795 of 2956)
I don't have my books with me but Snape says that those who have accomplished Occlumency can utter falsehoods in the Dark Lord's prescence and Harry shoots out something like "That's your job!" and Snape very smugly concurs.

He is very proud of his skill. The question becomes is Voldy better at Legilemency or is Snape better at Occlumency? Voldy may know that Snape is a double agent, but still feel that he can use him, so he isn't tempted to blast Severus into oblivion just yet.


LooneyLuna - Oct 12, 2004 11:10 am (#2796 of 2956)
Weeny - don't forget JKR has to write about freeing the House Elves too.

As for Snape returning to Voldemort, I'm in the camp that believes that Snape was in the graveyard, that he isn't the one that has "left forever" and that he is a spying for the order. In OotP (Chapter 26, Seen and Unforeseen), Harry is having an Occlumency lesson where Snape says, "No. I mean the one concerning a man kneeling in the middle of a darkened room...How does that man and that room come to be inside your head, Potter?"

When Snape says "that room", I take it that he recognizes the room as where Voldemort is living, which would mean that he's been there.


Chemyst - Oct 12, 2004 11:13 am (#2797 of 2956)
Haymoni, the gist of your post is fine, but the information comes from two different lessons.

OP24: Snape paused for a moment, apparently to savor the pleasure of insulting Harry before continuing. [... explains difference from muggle mind-reading... then concludes with - ] "Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection." pages 530 & 531 Scholastic hb

OP26: "...you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters.""No – that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.
[...]
"Yes Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. Now if you are ready..." Page 591 Scolastic hb


Weeny Owl - Oct 12, 2004 11:56 am (#2798 of 2956)
My apologies, Looney, for forgetting the House Elves.

When Snape says "that room", I take it that he recognizes the room as where Voldemort is living, which would mean that he's been there.

That's an excellent point. I hadn't quite thought of it in the context of the room itself but only of Snape recognizing the man. I think you're right.


LooneyLuna - Oct 12, 2004 12:28 pm (#2799 of 2956)
No apologies, Weeney!

Snape, the conundrum enclosed within an enigma - I can't wait to read what is REALLY going on with him!


Lina - Oct 12, 2004 12:43 pm (#2800 of 2956)
Weeny Owl: As for why Snape needs to actually appear before Voldemort, it isn't too much James Bond at all. If Snape didn't go to Voldemort when called, he would be dead by now.

There is a little problem. Throughout the whole OotP, Voldemort doesn't kill anybody (except, we really don't know what happened to Wormtail). It seems to me as if he doesn't dare to take any actions until he finds out about the prophecy. He was sure he would kill Harry at the time that he tried to. And if he succeeded, he would probably have killed Neville too. But all of the sudden, he found out himself just a smoke (or some better word that doesn't come to my mind or I have never learned it). He must have been scared at the moment as much as a person who stumbles in the middle of the street full of cars. That's the moment that he starts to understand that there must have been more to the prophecy than what he heard. But only in the SS/PS he founds out that he can't even touch Harry and that he couldn't kill him before the rebirth. After the rebirth he tries to kill him again and then he gets almost backfired as at the beginning. At that moment his priority becomes the prophecy.

I'm sorry all this flying of my mind is not really for this thread, but I wanted to say that he didn't want to kill anybody until he knows the whole prophecy. And that exactly could be the reason he didn't kill Snape yet. Maybe he is really on to it. but the time hadn't come yet. We have to see what is he going to do next, after the prophecy has been destroyed, is he going to start killing all the ways around, is Snape going to spend his time hidden like Sirius was, or is Voldy going to do some more preparing before the attacking? I think he doesn't want to be surprised as he was several times by now with Harry.

Grimber: and Time turners are highly regulated and monitored by MoM

Excuse me, but I might have missed that part in the books? Where is it stated that Time turners are highly regulated and monitored by MoM? Hermione used it to make all her classes and Hermione and Harry used it for something that shouldn't have been monitored by Mom. Would anybody give something so important to the students? And what would have happened if the MoM found out that Harry and Hermione used it to free Sirius?

I'm almost sure that time-turners are not monitored and I think that that solution is not excluded although maybe not probable neither.

The question stays: where did Snape go at the end of GoF? Is it connected with the question about Wormtail after the end of GoF?
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Weeny Owl - Oct 12, 2004 2:32 pm (#2801 of 2956)
Throughout the whole OotP, Voldemort doesn't kill anybody

He uses the Cruiciatus Curse on Avery and Wormtail, though, so what would he do to someone he thinks is a traitor? I cannot imagine he would let a suspected traitor exist for an entire year without a confrontation other than whatever happened at the end of GoF. While he might not kill Snape because he's working behind the scenes while the Ministry runs after Sirius and needs to keep things quiet, if he had tortured Snape, we would have seen it through Harry.

There will probably be a confrontation between Snape and Voldemort soon, although maybe not until the last book, but as of now I think Snape's cover is safe.


Madame Pomfrey - Oct 12, 2004 3:26 pm (#2802 of 2956)
Loony,I agree with you.I believe Snape was at the graveyard.I think he was the Deatheater L.V. passed that was stooped over.L.V. didn't speak to him probably to hide his identity and Snape was stooped over to hide his height for same purpose.


Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 12, 2004 4:43 pm (#2803 of 2956)
I know I'm going back on the posts a bit but I haven't read this thread in a little while, but in a couple of posts (maybe only one, I'm a bit confused after reading so many in one go!) It was said that it was unlikely Snape had a muggle parent as he wouldn't then insult Lily by calling her a Mudblood when he shares a similar parentage, but I disagree. JKR has said a few times that when writing these books she has looked back at the goings on of World War 2, it is a sad fact to say that during that time there where some people that where half German, Half Jewish that hid their Jewish heritage and worked for the Nazi's. There is a play called "Two" which is based on this, I read parts of it while in Year 12 (a long time ago), and in it a German woman with a Jewish mother went so far to deny her Jewish heritage that she worked in the Gas chambers, sending people of her own race to their deaths. I think in this sense Snape & Voldemort are extremely similar, the difference being that something happened to Snape to make him see how terrible his actions where and he switched sides, and worked as a 'double agent'.

Hope this makes sense.


Potions Mistress - Oct 12, 2004 4:55 pm (#2804 of 2956)
I have to agree with Daioma and that Snape has a muggle parent. Remember, JKR has compared the whole "pureblood/mudblood" thing to Nazi Germany. While I don't have the strong literary example like Daioma, look what Hitler considered to be the ideal of the Aryan race: blonde hair, blue eyes, while he himself had brown hair, brown eyes. Just my two knuts...

~pm


LooneyLuna - Oct 12, 2004 5:04 pm (#2805 of 2956)
Thank you, Madame Pomfrey. It's always nice when someone agrees with my theories.

I'm sure when Book 6 comes out, most of my theories will have to be flushed down Myrtle's loo, and I'll be eating some stoat sandwiches.

I agree with Potions Mistress and Daioma that Snape has a muggle parent or a muggle grandparent.


Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 12, 2004 5:21 pm (#2806 of 2956)
Great point about Hitlers ideal Potions Mistress, quite a bit like The Big V himself really isn't it?


Grimber - Oct 12, 2004 5:53 pm (#2807 of 2956)
Lina you need to go the explination p395 PoA how she got the time turner. she had to go through all sorts of ministry red tape to get the approval to get one and its use and then only after the Hogwarts staff also vouched for why she was using it and thier trust she wouldn't use it for anything other then the purpose she explains to the ministry.

Where is the only other place ( so far) we see time turners? Dept. or Mysteries. Definatly something your not going to pick up in any wizarding shop (legaly). Hermonies having and using one I think realy glosses over the fact the ministry finds these items to be very dangerous else they wouldn't be in the DoM. If they are such threating that they have to keep them in DoM, you can bet the Unspeakables are monitoring for use of such devices. bet 100 gallons it took DD going to bat for Hermonie to finly secure one for her to use.


Grimber - Oct 12, 2004 6:57 pm (#2808 of 2956)
OK there is some DEs Voldmort never spoke to in the grave yard, and we cannot track Snapes location from the start of the 3rd Triwizard task ( hes not mentioned at the dinner feast 5 minutes prior to the task but Harry would have noticed him missing from the staff table if he had been) till the time he arrives at Moody/crouchs office door with DD and McGonigal.

So lets assume for a moment Snape was at the graveyard and was one of the DEs not mentioned/named. That puts us then at 2 DEs not present or accounted for from the DE circle.

You have those DEs present ( some, not one, not named and I wonder who they are as we have no hints yet) Have those still in Azkaban Have a few accounted for as being dead. Barty Crouch is missing because hes in Hogwarts but is accounted for by Voldemort.

'One too cowardly to return' ( we can assume Karkaroff here?)

'one who I belive has left me forever...' who is this one then? We don't have any real clues pointing to ANOTHER DE that has left Voldemorts service than Snape and Karkaroff. JKR seems to emphsise this missing one more as well in Voldemorts speaking as this is an important character. I've tried to backtrack through the books any known DE names and I havn't ran across any that come up that would fill the unknown passed by DEs or the one who has 'left forever' other than Snape.

So if assumed Snape was there who is this 'left forever' DE? Bringing in a major character in book 6 of a 7 book series is not a currently acceptable method of writting these days, so then it would ahve to be a character we already know of but has remained WELL hidded on his/her true background.

This is why I place Snape in this spot of the DE circle. We don't have any real indication that any other important character would be a DE that fled Voldemort.

I notice too JKR has a trend that anytime Snape has done anything good, he either preceeds or follows it up by doing something that makes his actions questionable 'in Harrys eyes'. You have to admit Harry is Biased towards Snape almost from the start and always find something wrong with Snape even in the moments Snape shows any signs of being on the good side. We want Snape to be the the badguy because Harry wants to belive that. But how many times has Harry been wrong in his thinking before, we seem to forget that where Snape is concerned.


Weeny Owl - Oct 12, 2004 7:47 pm (#2809 of 2956)
While Ludo Bagman denied being a Death Eater and stating that he thought he was working for the good guys, he deceived Fred and George over their bet, got the Goblins so annoyed that they might side with Voldemort instead of the good guys, and he left before the Tri-Wizard Tournament was over. It is assumed that he left because the Goblins wanted their money from him, but that doesn't mean that's the real reason or the only reason. He could very easily have been a Death Eater. Him being a Quidditch star just made people not want to question him too closely or believe he was in Voldemort's service.

Karkaroff is the other one who left.

Snape stayed. Snape may be the coward, but he hasn't left. Voldemort knows where Snape is, as do all of the Death Eaters.


Hollywand - Oct 12, 2004 8:53 pm (#2810 of 2956)
The "Snape as DE Spy or Death Eater or at the Grave Yard" circle hinges on Dumbledore and Minerva's credibility.

If Dumbledore and Minerva are completely wrong about Snape, this makes them seem like completely incompetent wizards. I don't think these two core mentors will be undermined by Rowling on the Snape's character issue to the trio. Dumbledore and Minerva tell the trio to respect and work with Snape, even though they may not like his hairstyle, so to speak, as does Lupin.

If all of this credibility on behalf of the wise characters is undermined, it would seem a very disappointing intellectual choice on the part of this author who is clearly writing about moral choices.

I realize Janus figures have appeared in the Dark Arts Position: Quirrel, Lockhart, Moody/Crouch, Lupin, and Umbridge, but I think they are intentionally portals of good and bad that are metaphors, and Dumbledore has a hand in allowing them to present themselves for Harry's defensive development. On the Job Training, with the mentor quietly overseeing the events.


Solitaire - Oct 12, 2004 9:03 pm (#2811 of 2956)
I don't know that it would make them seem incompetent ... but it sure would be a powerful argument against putting trust in anyone, wouldn't it? That would put all Wizards in a situation of being extremely alone.

If Snape turns out to have been deceiving Dumbledore the entire time, I believe Harry might have somewhat less faith in Dumbledore; then again, perhaps he would just think he had right all along and Dumbledore should not have given Snape a second chance. I don't think, however, that it would necessarily make Dumbledore and Minerva appear less than competent to have trusted Snape. Rather, it would reinforce how powerful and dangerous a wizard Snape truly is.

Solitaire


SHEla WOLFsbane - Oct 12, 2004 9:25 pm (#2812 of 2956)
Someone mentioned that Snape would stay away from Voldemort because he was attached to Quirrel, that whole year. But that doesn't make any since to me, because wasn't it Quirrel who ended up telling Harry something like, "Oh no, he really hates you." when talking about Snape?

As for the grave yard thing... I don't know. To cowardly to return, or left Voldemort for ever??? I know what I'd like to believe, but anything I find to support my idea could be read more than one way. Example: When Karkaroff comes to Snape flipping out about the dark mark (I'm paraphrasing here) Snape basically says fine, then leave, I'll make your excuses for you. When I first finished GoF I thought Snape = to cowardly to return, Karkaroff = left forever. But then later I got to thinking if Karkaroff ran, that is a cowardly action, thus making him the coward. That leaves Snape as the one who left, unless he was at the grave yard. Personally that is just wishful thinking on my part. That way his cover wouldn't be blown ect, ect... Sorry if this isn't making much since, I'm kind of tired.

Another thing, I'm wondering about...? Page 289 American: About the Maurders Map Harry asks "Why did Snape think I'd got it from the manufacturers?" "Because...," Lupin hesitated, "because these map makers would have wanted to lure you out of school. They'd think it extremely entertaining." Why did Lupin hesitate? Argh! I think very few people, if any will argue with me when I say Snape knows a whole lot more than what we're led to believe. I just know that he has to be a pivotal character.

Okay, I think that's about it for now.


las bane


Grimber - Oct 13, 2004 1:14 am (#2813 of 2956)
I think Holywand has the right thought on this. Snapes true purpose hindges on DD.

1. Is Snape realy hiding the truth from DD so DD is fooled to thinking he can trust Snape? Where harry can see Snapes true nature but DD misses it? IMO I think this is highly unlikly for DD to not see if Snape was deciving him over 14+ years.

2. Or is Snape realy loyal to DD, but just can't get past his own past which makes him the nasty guy we know?

3. Or is Snape working the middle ground? Double agent working both Voldemort and DD. Trying to keep a stable enough relationship with both so no matter which wins in the end he won't be on a loosing side?

There is enough arguments to support any of these 3 possabilties and untill we get more light shed on Snape ( hopefuly enough in book 6) it comes down to as DD said " who we are in life is determined by our choices" .

And I myself choose that Snape is #2. He gravitated to Voldemort because in the beginning Voldemort promised more power and control to pure-bloods and those that follow him, but when Voldemorts true colors were revieled, Snape ( and some other DE's) didn't realy want what Voldemort was offering ( i forgot which book it was in, but someone talked to Harry about this that Voldemort at first didn't show his real intentions while he was gathering followers). I think Snapes Loyalty then stems from the fact DD was probably the first real person to stand up and be there for Snape. Not showing demand and control over him but trust and belief.

(i.e. i think DD represents a father figure to Snape just as DD is a father figure for Hagrid. DD a guy you just don't want to disapoint or let down because hes there for you without question or demand)


Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2004 1:35 am (#2814 of 2956)
But that doesn't make any since to me, because wasn't it Quirrel who ended up telling Harry something like, "Oh no, he really hates you." when talking about Snape?

Quirrell said that Snape really did hate Harry but never wanted him dead.

It makes sense to me because even if Voldemort was on the back of Quirrell's head, his powers of Legilimency wouldn't have been as good since he wasn't at full strength. That would mean that Quirrell was only guessing as to whether or not Snape wanted Harry dead.

Granted, Snape did save Harry when his broom was jinxed, but Snape can always say that Dumbledore instructed him to attend the Quidditch match for the sole purpose of protecting Harry, and that to refuse or to allow Harry to be hurt wouuld have made Dumbledore suspicious.

Snape's actions and words can be explained in a logical manner to either Dumbledore or Voldemort. That's why Snape is such an enigma.


Rosie - Oct 13, 2004 1:46 am (#2815 of 2956)
I believe that Snape's life is now in danger. In OofP he alerts DD to what is happening after he realized that Harry has gone to the Ministry. Somehow, probably though Umbridge, Voldemort has find out that it was Snape that betrayed them to DD. Wormtail would confirm who 'Padfoot' was, and 'the place were it is hidden' would be obvious to Voldemort.


Her-melanie - Oct 13, 2004 4:56 am (#2816 of 2956)
I always thought there was some uncertainty in Voldemort's statement,"One who I fear has left me forever..." He doesn't sound too certain, and I think it's because Voldemort knows that it is not possible for Snape to Apparate within the Hogwart's school grounds, and it would've been suspicious for Snape to leave at that particular time. Voldemort understands the POSSIBILITY that Snape has only been hiding his loyalties from DD. Voldemort would want to be sure, though, and I can imagine that first meeting between the two. Snape nervous but confident; Voldemort, suspicious but OVER-confident and too anxious to have followers again. Voldemort is so vain, I can see him trusting completely to his own Legilmensy skills and thinking no one could ever fool him. You have to admit, if Snape is really succeeding in fooling Voldemort, he deserves MAJOR respect.


Hollywand - Oct 13, 2004 6:57 am (#2817 of 2956)
Her-melanie, you bring up a tremendous point in the alliance question!!

If Dumbledore is the only wizard Voldemort ever feared, and we know that Severus is a very talented dark wizard, his loyalties are a key. A Dumbledore/Snape alliance would be a very difficult power alliance for Voldemort, add Harry Potter to the Snape/Dumbledore/Potter alliance, and it really gets bleak for the dark lord.

If Severus swings back the other direction toward Voldemort, it destabilzes all of Hogwarts, the Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore's credibility and Harry's safety.

Voldemort's ambitions are like the Yew (You) tree. He only thinks short term, self-serving, immediate, singular, tip top of the pyramid. If Dumbledore thinks of the whole structure of the pyramid, and can form alliances.


Weeny Owl - Oct 13, 2004 8:24 am (#2818 of 2956)
In OofP he alerts DD to what is happening after he realized that Harry has gone to the Ministry. Somehow, probably though Umbridge, Voldemort has find out that it was Snape that betrayed them to DD. Wormtail would confirm who 'Padfoot' was, and 'the place were it is hidden' would be obvious to Voldemort.

It's possible that Voldemort will find out that Snape saved the day during the Department of Mysteries battle, but it isn't a given.

Quite a bit of time passed between the scene in Umbridge's office and when the Order members showed up at the Ministry.

All Snape would have to do would be to come up with a cover story about how someone else could have given the information to Dumbledore. He could say that he went to the staff room and told the other teachers about Potter's odd babbling, and with the other teachers so loyal to Dumbledore, one of them must have had a way of contacting him.

Even if an Inquisitorial Squad member passes the information to a parent who then tells Voldemort, the same thing applies.


Solitaire - Oct 14, 2004 12:52 am (#2819 of 2956)
Something I'd never considered before until this moment: Didn't Snape say he went into the forest to look for Harry and Hermione when they didn't return--before he notified Order headquarters? Not that I actually blame him, but I wonder why he didn't rescue Umbridge. Wouldn't he have known that she, too, had not returned? It doesn't seem like Slytherin-y Snape to have left her out there, does it? Yet, is there any mention that he was remotely concerned about where she was? Just wondering ...

haymoni [/b]- Oct 14, 2004 3:01 am (#2820 of 2956)
I think it sounds VERY Slytheriny, if you use Phineas's definition - brave, yes, but to save their own skins.

Too be fair, though, they were pretty deep into the forest. Maybe Severus didn't look that far.


Grimber - Oct 14, 2004 3:44 am (#2821 of 2956)
page 830 Snape alerted the Order that he belived Harry had gone to the MoM, told Sirius to stay put so he could have him to contact, then went and searched the forest.

Doubt Snape would have tried to rescue Umbridge from the centaurs, his apparent concern was for Harry and Id think Snape would think Umbridge got what she deserved.


Hollywand - Oct 14, 2004 4:09 am (#2822 of 2956)
Making the fake Vertiaserum was also a risk on Snape's part.


LooneyLuna - Oct 14, 2004 4:53 am (#2823 of 2956)
"Making the fake Vertiaserum was also a risk on Snape's part." - Hollywand.

True, but completely unnecessary because Harry didn't drink it anyway.


haymoni - Oct 14, 2004 5:09 am (#2824 of 2956)
I'm sure Severus would never think Harry clever enough to trick Umbridge.


Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 14, 2004 5:14 am (#2825 of 2956)
Very good point Haymoni, Snape holds Harry in such low regard he wouldn't of thought he would think of such a thing, but then again, it was better to be safe then sorry.

I do think that Snape making the false batch helps to show where his loyalties lie. He might hate Harry, but he's loyal to Dumbledore.


LooneyLuna - Oct 14, 2004 5:19 am (#2826 of 2956)
Good points, Haymoni and Daioma.

Severus also might have given the fake Veritaserum to Umbridge to protect other students and teachers.


Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 14, 2004 5:29 am (#2827 of 2956)
Severus also might have given the fake Veritaserum to Umbridge to protect other students and teachers.


That's very true Looney, she could of attempted it on anyone, especially those closest to Harry. I think to goes a long way in showing that Snape is not all bad, a horrible personality, but not completely evil


Tessa's Dad - Oct 14, 2004 5:50 am (#2828 of 2956)
Snape could have been acting in his own best interest when making the fake Veritaserum. If Umbridge was willing to use it on a student, Snape could assume she would use it on a teacher, even on him.

Just trying to keep the bad guy label firmly affixed to Ol? Snapey Poo.


Solitaire - Oct 14, 2004 6:22 am (#2829 of 2956)
When I said Snape wasn't acting Slytherin-y, I meant that it would have gained him some "brownie" points--or should I say "fudge points"--to have rescued her, that's all. But you are right about him not risking his skin.

I wasn't sure he would even know she was with the Centaurs, actually. But Haymoni is correct in his assuming Harry would not be clever enough to trick Umbridge ... although he assumed Harry had tricked everyone with the Time Turner when Sirius disappeared from Hogwarts (which was true in a sense, although it was at Dumbledore's suggestion).


haymoni - Oct 14, 2004 6:41 am (#2830 of 2956)
Fearing that the Veritaserum would be used on himself is a MAJOR point.

Umbridge is so wicked, who knows where her loyalties lie?

She would have used whatever she could against anyone.


Her-melanie - Oct 14, 2004 7:22 am (#2831 of 2956)
If Umbridge had used Veritaserum on Harry, Snape himself would've been in danger since Harry knew all about who was in the Order. Umbridge would've found out Snape probably knew DD's whereabouts, or at least more info than he let on to her. The Order itself would've been in jeopardy.


Potions Mistress - Oct 14, 2004 4:10 pm (#2832 of 2956)
The whole issue of why Snape made the fake Veritaserum potion shows what an enigma of a character he is: he could've made it that way because he holds Harry in such low esteem or he could've done it in the event that he would have to save his own skin (a very Slytherin-ish quality) or he could've done it because he is loyal to DD and by extension the Order--or it could've been a combination of all three. That's one of things that I like about Snape, but also drives me up a wall: you just can't pin the guy down.

~pm


SHEla WOLFsbane - Oct 14, 2004 7:39 pm (#2833 of 2956)
As for the whole Snape going to look for Umbridge or not thing- He couldn't have. I think it was a save his hide sort of thing. Let me explain. He walked out of her office claiming to have no idea what Harry was talking about, right? And basically told her she was on her own. So he would have no idea that Harry was going to try to leave school grounds by that account.

I don't remember, but how did Snape know they even went into the forest? It's not like any of them knew before hand. So, Snape couldn't have gone in looking for Umbridge anyway since he wasn't supposed to know. Or am I way off here?


Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 14, 2004 8:20 pm (#2834 of 2956)
SHEla, I don't have the book with me, but I think he saw them going into the forest (through a window)


Solitaire - Oct 14, 2004 8:53 pm (#2835 of 2956)
I don't really know, SHE WOLF. I know that some have doubted that Snape really went to look for Hermione and Harry in the forest; others have speculated on how long he waited before he went to look. I suppose he would have found out where they went (and with whom) when his own Slytherin Inquisitorial Squad kids told him. And they would have, too.

Remember that Neville, Ginny and Luna managed to get their wands back (or had they lost them?)--as well as Harry's and Hermione's--and slap the IS with a few hexes and jinxes before giving them the slip. (I'm sure some Muggle-fighting techniques might have been used to retrieve them, if they were wandless. And didn't Ginny use the Bat-Bogey Hex on Malfoy?) You can bet all of that was reported ASAP to Snape, as the Slytherins would have assumed he would be on their side.

Solitaire


EbonyRebel - Oct 15, 2004 2:21 am (#2836 of 2956)
I don't think that Snape would have been worried about a possible interogation of him by Umbridge - she did seem to completely trust him, especially when she said that "Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of you". I think that the explanation that Snape didn't have enough trust in Harry (that Harry wouldn't have the wit to trick Umbridge) is a much more likely explanation. Also, to a lesser extent perhaps, Snape may have been aware of possible ministry repercussions, as it is mentioned that the use of Veritaserum is controlled by very strict ministry guidelines. Umbridge doesn't follow her own rules, and although she is very close to Fudge, this doesn't mean that she wouldn't be punished for breaking those rules. If Umbridge was backed into a corner, I'm sure that she wouldn't hesitate for a second to point the finger at Snape ("He told me to use it!). Snape is very shrewd, and I'm sure that he thought about (and acted on) all the points that Potions Mistress pointed out (well done, by the way, PM - it was very concise!).

One other point - I have to disagree strongly with Grimber when they said that "Snape's name is mud with Voldemort these days". I think this comment is very presumptuous. There is nothing in the books to suggest this is the case - absolutely nothing. The fact that Snape is alive, and furthermore was freely wandering around London (during the summer) as well as the fact that Lucius and he are still best buddies, seems to me to point to the oppostite supposition - that Snape is, in fact, still very much in the DE inner circle.

Personnally, I think that the idea that Snape gave Umbridge fake serum supports (once again) the theory that he is loyal to DD. I think that after the fifth book (I know this is a slightly over-confident statement) there is very little doubt left that Snape really is working whole-heartedly on the side of good. That's what I keep telling myself anyway!

(apologies if I've repeated many things over again - I haven't had time to read the forum properly or post for ages!)


Grimber - Oct 15, 2004 4:57 am (#2837 of 2956)
I don't think its presumptuous to state Snape is mud to Voldemort.

As you state and I agree that Snape IS loyal to DD and working on the side of good. Keeping that in mind we don't have to do much assumption, just look at what we do know.

Snape maintains contact with at least some DE's , this does not mean they would turn Snape in to Voldemort. Actualy the opposite, if they WERE loyal to Voldemort they would have turned Snape ( or worse) in long ago. Doesn't take a mind reader to see Snapes possibly loyalty to DD and Malfoy isn't a fool or blinded by just exterior attitude.

Voldmort knows hes got 2 death eaters that are no longer loyal to him, one defiantly that ran in fear. the other definatly because no longer a loyal supporter (GoF).

How many do we know of the DEs that have left Voldemort.. 2. How would voldemort suspect Snape as the one having left him? Voldemort spent a year at hogwarts (SS), he could see what snape was up to. So he already would suspect Snape.

Voldemort also had a LOYAL DE in hogwarts for the next year (OotP), whom would definatly be periodicly reporting back to Voldemort on what was going on in the school and his progress. Not much of a stretch that Barty Crouch would also have been told to keep an eye on Snape with Voldemorts suspisions and especialy with Bartys attitude ( any DE that didn't goto azkaban or die were not true loyal servents of Voldemort) he would have probably done so anyways. Remember the Foe-Glass in Bartys office? Snape didn't show up in the glass for nothing nor did Snape looking at his image in the glass a cooinsidance. Harry though never showed up 2 differnt times in the Glass but Snape had. Would imply Crouch was watching out for if Snape( and DD and McGonigal) came near his office. Though we havn;t had clear indication HOW the Foe Glass works it appears to work to show those the owner believes are Foes.

Being we know DD and Snape were taken flat footed not knowing Moody was actualy Barty Crouch, and Moody was a friend of DDs/ former member of the Order it surmisable some 'things' may have been said in his presence that gave barty enough reason to watch Snape closely.

In fact Snape was very shocked it was Barty Crouch. I don't recall Snape ever showing that much surprise in any situation prior, not even Harry speaking Parseltounge. Though Barty technicaly should be dead Snape seemed more surprised than DD or McGonigal.

Now for why nothing seeme to happen to Snape while he was spying for the order in OotP. Obviously DD and Snape could have determined Snapes cover could now be blown between the events whith Barty Crouch and Harrys account at the Graveyard. Snape would then have to be very cautious to only contact DEs and other sources of Information HE knew would NOT turn him over to Voldemort. Only ones that come to mind are the Malfoys and those VERY close to Malfoy. Snape also spends no time at 12 GWP other than to give his reports. ( i.e. he reports then heads back to Hogwarts where hes safe, sounds reasonable of an action).

Also Voldmort has his mind on more important matters than rounding up his 2 fugative DE's. Regain his old allies Giants and Dementors. Arrange the release of his 10 DEs in Azkaban, and get the prophacy from the MoM before he moves on anything else.

What I think is going to be VERY intresting in book 6 is what will happen to Snape. With most of the DE's ( including many of the ones Snape relied on for information) rounded up. Snape will now be in the SAME possition Sirius was. He won't have much use to the order anymore without his informants and he will be hunted by those LOYAL DEs that the eluded capture of DEs in MoM. SO he will have to lay low and hide and stew in the fact he can't do anything but be protected.


Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2004 8:05 am (#2838 of 2956)
Grimber, everything you've said has other explanations.

The Quirrell/Voldemort year can be explained easily... Snape had no way of knowing it was actually Voldemort who wanted the stone and not just Quirrell himself.

Snape hadn't done much of anything up to the confrontation in GoF that could be seen as being disloyal to Voldemort. In fact, he knew early on that his Dark Mark was getting stronger, and he would have been very careful not to let anyone know his true feelings (even us).

In an interview, JKR said that teachers do not remain at Hogwarts during the summer. That would mean that after Voldemort's rebirth, Snape had a couple of months where he would have been vulnerable had he already been outed as loyal to Dumbledore.

Since Voldemort rarely does things himself but has his minions doing things for him, he would have plenty of time to get someone to go after Snape.

Nothing Snape has said or done that we've seen or heard is concrete evidence that he is loyal to either Dumbledore or Voldemort. His words and actions can be seen from either side. That's why he's such a mystery.


Grimber - Oct 15, 2004 11:04 am (#2839 of 2956)
Snape had no way of knowing it was actually Voldemort who wanted the stone and not just Quirrell himself

wouldn't matter if Snape knew it was voldemort with quirrell or not. what matters is it was Voldemort was able to witness Snapes action first hand. We don't know if Snape knew or not and it doesn't matter. What matters is we know he DID interfear with Quirrell's every move.

Put yourself in the viewpoint of Voldemort... why would a loyal DE prevent Potters death caused by ANYONE, they very child that broght down Voldemort? Why would a Loyal DE interfere with anyone wanting to take something away from DD, Voldmorts known biggest enemy? A loyal DE wouldn't. IF I was voldemort attached to the back of Quirrells head and seen one of my supposed DE followers purposly working to stop any attempts at killing Potter or take something important from DD, I'd realy question his loyalty.

Not at hogwarts at summer. JKR stated they don't, but doesn't mean they cannot stay. So the question is then where would Snape go for the summer? Does it look like Hagrid leaves over the summer, afterall he has no family to goto. Mr Filtch? Someone remains at hogwarts to look after the place. Trelawyne (Sp? ) doesn't seem to be the sort to leave even during the summer either. So this doesn't mean Snape HAS to leave over the summer or cannot return during the summer.


rambkowalczyk - Oct 15, 2004 12:34 pm (#2840 of 2956)
I don't think the hex on Harry's broom in book 1 would have killed Harry. Harry fell from a similar height in book 3 when he was attacked by the Dementers. Dumbledore slowed down his fall. Harry's emotional magic would have save him in book 1. I also think Voldemort knew this but may not have told Quirrel.

I think Voldemort was "playing" with Snape by putting Harry in danger like that. Voldemort knew that Snape to keep his cover with Dumbledore had to save Harry. Voldemort "knew" that Snape did not wish to save the son of his hated rival.

All Quirrel probably knew was that Snape was stealing the stone for himself. Voldemort may have even thought that Snape was stealing it so he could search for Voldemort and give it to him. Voldemort didn't tell Quirrel about Snape because he was concerned that Quirrel would betray him.


Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2004 12:41 pm (#2841 of 2956)
What matters is we know he DID interfear with Quirrell's every move.

What if Voldemort hadn't been on the back of Quirrell's head, though? That's the whole point. Snape wasn't stopping Voldemort from getting the stone but stopping another teacher from getting it. That has nothing to do with his loyalty to anyone. All the teachers were expected to provide defenses for the stone, and Snape's Potion Logic Puzzle was just one of many defenses.

As for saving Harry during the Quidditch match, there are a number of ways Snape could explain it. He could say that Dumbledore had all of the teachers looking out for problems during the game. He could say that he saved Potter only because he had no way of knowing if Voldemort would want him killed by anyone else. He could say that Dumbledore enchanted the Quidditch pitch so that the most powerful person had to save Harry. There are all sorts of things Snape could come up with to explain his actions.

During the Quidditch World Cup, Lucius Malfoy was sitting behind Harry, yet instead of trying to find Harry and killing him, Lucius tortured Muggles. Voldemort mentioned the Muggle torture but didn't chastise Lucius for not trying to kill Harry, so why would Snape be any different?

Snape is intelligent and very effective. In order to be a believable spy, he has to think on his feet, be able to think ahead about what questions he may be asked, and present evidence that supports his statements. That works whether he's loyal to Dumbledore or to Voldemort.


Choices - Oct 15, 2004 4:53 pm (#2842 of 2956)
Snape is playing a dangerous game and playing it very well. Even those of us who study his every move and question each motive, can't figure him out. He is certainly no coward - it takes a lot of bravery to do what he does, no matter which side he turns out to be on. He may well keep us guessing about where his loyalties lie until the very end. Gotta love that Snape!!


Grimber - Oct 15, 2004 4:54 pm (#2843 of 2956)
~What if Voldemort hadn't been on the back of Quirrell's head, though~ but he was by quirrles and Voldemorts own words SS and GoF.

In fact the past two post don;t seem to show any evidance from JKRs own writting to anything contrary. its all suppose guesses vs any bases on whats written in the books.

As why did Malfoy attack muggles and not harry at the world cup that answers already provided.

I honestly wonder how many people on these boards actualy take time to actual read the books and not just skimming through them without any thought process.


Ann - Oct 15, 2004 6:02 pm (#2844 of 2956)
I think the Veritaserum episode really says it all. In GoF, he threatens to use it on Harry, but then in OotP he prevents it use on him (for all sorts of reasons, I grant you). All through the books, he talks nastily to Harry, but really doesn't let any harm come to him. I will grant you that he is horribly abusive verbally to Harry and Neville and Hermione, and only slightly less so to the rest of the Gryffindors, but looking after them is his job, and he isn't the sort who shirks his responsibilities. I do think he believes he's teaching them, and from Umbridge's comment (not that she would know), he may be. In the end, I suspect he would give his life to protect any and all of them, despite his nastiness. And I suspect he's going to do just that.


Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2004 7:57 pm (#2845 of 2956)
but he was by quirrles and Voldemorts own words SS and GoF.

But Snape didn't KNOW that. No one knew it - not even Dumbledore. No one knew anything involved Voldemort until after it was all over.

its all suppose guesses vs any bases on whats written in the books.

It's simply a matter of interpreting what is read in different ways. No one can agree one hundred percent on anything involving Snape. I interpret what I read based on my own experiences, other books I've read, other movies I've seen, and discussion groups such as this.

I honestly wonder how many people on these boards actualy take time to actual read the books and not just skimming through them without any thought process.

I've read all of the books well over a dozen times each. I've reread specific passages even more than that. What you're saying is really rather insulting since we've spent a great deal of time analyzing each and every nuance, look, gesture, and spoken word.

It's still simply a matter of interpretation. You see the facts one way and I see them another. That's one reason why there are hung juries... facts can be seen many ways.


Catherine - Oct 16, 2004 5:33 am (#2846 of 2956)
I honestly wonder how many people on these boards actualy take time to actual read the books and not just skimming through them without any thought process. --Grimber

Let me echo Weeny Owl's caution that this may be very insulting to many of us here on the Forum. If you honestly think that, I am surprised that you wish to post here.

Snape is an enigmatic, complex character, and I have found that, just as in the novels, his motives and actions may be interpreted differently by different people. This sparks all sort of creative discussions and lively debate, and I enjoy coming to the Forum to see all the ideas that surround this fascinating character. I find that, upon re-reading the novels, that I glean new insights that I otherwise might have missed.

In fact, I plan to re-read SS to rethink the interactions between Quirrell and Snape.

Cheers.


Potions Mistress - Oct 16, 2004 10:01 am (#2847 of 2956)
I honestly wonder how many people on these boards actualy take time to actual read the books and not just skimming through them without any thought process. --Grimber

I have to disagree. From what I've seen of the discussion here, it is from people who have read and re-read the books several times and are offering different points of view and different takes on what is being presented. Let me also echo Weeny Owl and Catherine--many people will probably not appreciate your comment--it is one thing to disagree and quite another to insult.

~pm


Loony Loopy Larissa - Oct 16, 2004 10:43 am (#2848 of 2956)
I quite agree with many people that Snape's actions in Sorcerer's Stone don't prove he is loyal to either Voldemort or Dumbledore because he was unaware of Voldemort's presence. My question is why didn't Voldemort go to Snape, a very able and supposedly loyal Death Eater, after Quirrel found him and brought him to Hogwarts. If Voldemort thought Snape was still loyal to him, he would have had Quirrel ask for help. He also might have visited Snape after he left Quirrel's body at the end. A possible answer to this is that Jo didn't have the entire story completely thought out before the first book was published, which is entirely understandable.

I don't think that Snape is currently only associating with Death Eaters and staying away from Voldemort. I believe he wasn't at the rebirthing and that he is the "one to cowardly to return" (if anyone is interested in my reasoning for these, feel free to ask, but I would mostly be repeating others' arguments that have already been stated multiple times). Snape is very capable of talking himself out of some of his minor transgressions, and I think he might have talked his way back into Voldemort's good graces using Voldemort's arrogance and confidence in his powers of Legilimency.

These are my thoughts on Snape. Feel free to disagree.


Aurian - Oct 16, 2004 11:22 am (#2849 of 2956)
"I honestly wonder how many people on these boards actualy take time to actual read the books and not just skimming through them without any thought process."

Actually, Grimber, we have all read the books many times, and like Weeny Owl said, the facts are subject to many interpretations. This is why we are all here - to interpret and share our different opinions. We won't agree with every opinion, but that, after all, is what makes this forum so interesting. I also find that people's different view points have prompted me to think about things (especially Snape) in more diverse ways, and help me to consider aspects and ideas I never would have thought of otherwise. It's just a matter of being open-minded. The forum has really made me appreciate just how good JK's writing is, and what a gem of a character Snape is!

I think that it is rather simplistic to assume that Snape is one of the DE's mentioned by Voldemort - he did describe them in quite loose terms (i.e. coward, deserter, etc). Voldemort has many DE's (as can be seen just by glancing through the DE thread!) and we already know that at least one has tried to desert the ranks before (Regulus Black). We also know that the only reason we hear the story of Regulus is because we know Sirius very well, and Sirius was close family to Regulus (brother). I think that Voldemort doesn't name and shame fallen DE's because he wants to keep it general - he's saying to his DE's "if you do something like this (eg leave our number forever) you definately won't get away with it". The fact that the Order all "make noises of interest and excitement" when Snape arrives suggests that he is doing something HUGE and MAJORLY important. Snape may just be friends with other disloyal DEs, but if he is, how does the Order know Voldemort's plans in depth all year? My mind is going around in circles as I write this, because I realise that everyone has a realistic, probable point. But again, this is a tribute to the excellence of the writing. Snape is an enigma, and as can be seen from the discussion here (especially the Veritaserum discussion)there may be a million reasons why he does any one thing. And it's the endless possibilities of his character, and the endless and always-diverse discussion about these possibilities that make this thread sooo interesting.



Ann - Oct 16, 2004 11:27 am (#2850 of 2956)
Loony Loopy Larissa: I agree with your post (and with all the posts about Grimber's insulting comment about our reading, too).

You ask, "My question is why didn't Voldemort go to Snape, a very able and supposedly loyal Death Eater, after Quirrel found him and brought him to Hogwarts."

I think it must have been fairly widely known that Snape got off being charged as a DE because Dumbledore supported him, although not necessarily that he'd been a spy. Quirrell was a colleague of Snape's at Hogwarts, he would have heard the rumors and seen how Dumbledore treats him (as a trusted senior staff member). He would probably not encourage Voldemort to trust Snape--for one thing, that would have lessened his own value to Voldemort. And I think it may be on Quirrell's (as well as Wormtail's) authority that he believes Snape has left him forever. But Voldemort can also see that both of those sources have a lot to gain by turning him against Snape. (We know Wormtail has a long history of hating him, and Voldemort probably does, too.)

I think Snape talked his way back into the ranks of the "loyal Death Eaters," probably with some help and support from Malfoy. Snape's trusted position at Hogwarts and his magical skills would make him very valuable to Voldemort. Snape may be good at dissembling, but I think Voldemort's tendency (like other leaders we know) to believe his own wishes must be the truth would be a huge help, too.
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Her-melanie - Oct 16, 2004 1:00 pm (#2851 of 2956)
Loony Loopy, I agree with you about Snape. As to why Voldemort didn't seek him out...If you look at it from Voldemort's point of view, Voldemort can't trust ANYONE. None of his DE's went looking for him, and Snape teaching at Hogwart's would suggest a change of sides to him. Even if he doesn't fully believe Snape has changed sides, it would be foolish for him to show himself to a former DE he is unsure of. Obviously, there would be a large chance Snape would turn Voldemort in to DD. So even if Voldemort thought there was a chance in Snape, he would know better than to risk it.


Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2004 1:33 pm (#2852 of 2956)
Her-melanie! I was just going to write the very same thing. I don't think Voldemort would trust any of his Death Eaters. Until he had his body back and could adequately use a wand, I don't think he would want them to see him in that little body Wormtail was carrying around.

Voldemort might have thought that if he had asked Snape to help get the stone, that with him being weak because of being on the back of Quirrell's head, Snape might just grab the stone himself. After all, that's probably what Voldemort would do if the situations were reversed.


Her-melanie - Oct 16, 2004 1:48 pm (#2853 of 2956)
Weeny-Owl, funny! I guess I'm just another one of those posters who doesn't actually read the books, and just skims. Wink Evil intentions do seem to cloud the logical mind don't they? All that constant suspicion must be taxing. Maybe that's the best evidence for or against Snape's true intentions: does he seem constantly tired?? The fact that I'm rambling should indicate that I have finally run out of suggestions. We need another tantalizing interview of Jo to dangle juicy tidbits over our heads.


haymoni - Oct 16, 2004 2:40 pm (#2854 of 2956)
I'm guessing Snape gave answers to Voldy very similar to those of Lucius:

"...but might not your energies have been better directed toward finding and aiding your master?"

"My Lord, I was constantly on the alert," came Lucius Malfoy's voice swiftly from beneath the hood. "Had there been any sign from you, any whisper of your whereabouts, I would have been at your side immediately, nothing could have prevented me--"

"And yet you ran from my Mark, when a faithful Death Eater sent it into the sky last summer?" said Voldemort lazily, and Mr. Malfoy stopped talking abruptly. "Yes, I know all about that, Lucius....You have disappointed me....I expect more faithful service in the future."

I think he let Lucius, and later Snape, go without AK'ing them because he needs numbers. I think he would be willing to take back any of the former DE's.

If it was someone he couldn't trust completely, I think Voldy would send him on a very difficult task. The "traitor" would be found out immediately and snuffed out quicker than the Unknown Security Officer on a Star Trek episode.

Snape's skill at Occlumency is what is saving his hide. He has convinced Voldy that he is loyal to him and can serve him best in his role as Professor Snape - "I am perfectly poised, my Lord, to pass information to you and right under Dumbledore's nose."


Loony Loopy Larissa - Oct 16, 2004 3:27 pm (#2855 of 2956)
Voldemort might have thought that if he had asked Snape to help get the stone, that with him being weak because of being on the back of Quirrell's head, Snape might just grab the stone himself. After all, that's probably what Voldemort would do if the situations were reversed.

Weeny Owl, that is an excellent idea. Absolutely brilliant! Voldemort probably only stayed with Quirrel because Quirrel was timid and easily manipulated. If one of his Death Eaters (other than Wormtail who has little or no magical power) saw him weak and helpless, they wouldn't be as likely to grovel to him and follow his every command. I knew I would get good answers from everyone here (and thank you to all who did reply).


Potions Mistress - Oct 16, 2004 8:02 pm (#2856 of 2956)
Snape's skill at Occlumency is what is saving his hide. He has convinced Voldy that he is loyal to him and can serve him best in his role as Professor Snape - "I am perfectly poised, my Lord, to pass information to you and right under Dumbledore's nose."--haymoni

I think you're right. I would be willing to bet ten Galleons that Snape is a more powerful Legilimens/Occlumens than we are first shown. I know it was posted somewhere before (sorry, don't remember when or by whom) that when LV was sharing Quirrel's head, he was in such a weakened state that he was unable to (fully?) use his Legilimency against Snape--which does make sense if looked at from that angle.

Now that LV is back, Snape is playing the perfect spy, using his Occlumency as his cover. So, there's one interpretation for everyone. Agree, disagree, other interpretations? I think everyone would like to read them.

~pm


Lina - Oct 17, 2004 2:03 pm (#2857 of 2956)
Grimber: Put yourself in the viewpoint of Voldemort... why would a loyal DE prevent Potters death caused by ANYONE, they very child that broght down Voldemort? Why would a Loyal DE interfere with anyone wanting to take something away from DD, Voldmorts known biggest enemy? A loyal DE wouldn't.

THIS COULD EXPLAIN EVERYTHING (that has been bothering me).

At the end of GoF Snape goes somewhere. As DD tells him :"You know what you have to do. Are you ready?" it is obvious that the two of them have discussed what the actions should be one day that Voldemort comes back. And that day is here and Snape knows exactly what he has to do. It is just a little problem that we don't know that and we haven't found anything about it in the OotP neither. Bad luck. I'm not sure if it was on this thread, but someone suspected that trying to kill Voldemort would harm in some way Harry too. So that could be the reason that DD doesn't try to kill Voldemort. Couldn't we put the things in the opposite way? That trying to kill Harry could have done harm to Voldemort? Could this be the Snape's assignment at the end of the GoF: to inform Voldemort that there is more to the prophecy that he knows? And that could be the reason why is Voldemort so obsessed with the prophecy in the OotP.

I mean: Snape could use saving Harry's life as a proof of his loyalty to Voldemort.

Just my guessing, I like this sentence at the end of every post lately... Smile)

And

Loony Loopy Larissa: My question is why didn't Voldemort go to Snape, a very able and supposedly loyal Death Eater, after Quirrel found him and brought him to Hogwarts. If Voldemort thought Snape was still loyal to him, he would have had Quirrel ask for help.

This is a good point too. Since we have reasons to believe that Snape left Voldemort before he (Voldy) met Harry, it is not impossible that he doubted Snape ever since that time and this could really be the reason for him to believe that Snape is the one that left him forever. Somehow, Snape just managed to come alive to Voldemort and to tell him about the prophecy - as much as it was necessary.

Whoever of us is right, I'm sure that JKR is going to explain us who were the two DEs mentioned at the graveyard. I think she has to.


Loopy Lupin - Oct 18, 2004 6:59 am (#2858 of 2956)
I honestly wonder how many people on these boards actualy take time to actual read the books and not just skimming through them without any thought process. -- Grimber

Probably more than those who actually take the time to read what they have written before they click the "post message" icon.


T Brightwater - Oct 18, 2004 7:32 am (#2859 of 2956)
"Couldn't we put the things in the opposite way? That trying to kill Harry could have done harm to Voldemort? Could this be the Snape's assignment at the end of the GoF: to inform Voldemort that there is more to the prophecy that he knows? And that could be the reason why is Voldemort so obsessed with the prophecy in the OotP.

I mean: Snape could use saving Harry's life as a proof of his loyalty to Voldemort."

Lina, have a butterbeer! That is very intriguing, especially since Voldemort's attempt to kill Harry was the very thing that lead to his downfall in the first place. That would be a perfect cover for all of Snape's actions up to Voldemort's return - and the knowledge that there is more to the prophecy than Voldemort originally knew is a piece of information that Voldemort would be very glad to get, and would probably re-establish Snape in his good graces, such as they are.

Since Dumbledore has said that his main priority was to keep Harry alive, this might be part of his plan - to let Voldemort know just enough more than he does to be wary of trying to kill Harry. Notice that at the end of GoF, Crouch is set to kill Harry, but in the fight at the MoM none of the DEs tries to kill him.


Potions Mistress - Oct 18, 2004 9:46 am (#2860 of 2956)
"Couldn't we put the things in the opposite way? That trying to kill Harry could have done harm to Voldemort? Could this be the Snape's assignment at the end of the GoF: to inform Voldemort that there is more to the prophecy that he knows? And that could be the reason why is Voldemort so obsessed with the prophecy in the OotP.

I mean: Snape could use saving Harry's life as a proof of his loyalty to Voldemort.--Lina"

That is an interesting theory, but I still think the Snape's loyalties are to DD. I'm basing this on the line in GOF where DD said to Snape that he must do what he to do, and Snape when pale, but nodded his head and went. (Sorry, don't have my book with me, so I'm paraphrasing.) Anyway, that's my interpretation of that part.

But, I also believe that Snape is loyal to DD because (as I've said a million times before), DD has given Snape a second chance. I seriously doubt LV gives second chances if you double-cross him. (I should note that I don't see the DE's who ran away from the Dark Mark at the QWC as traitors, as they did not "switch sides" from LV to DD.)

~pm


Potions Mistress - Oct 18, 2004 9:51 am (#2861 of 2956)
A thought just occured to me: if one is skilled at Occlumency (the ability to protect the mind), would that protect you from "mind charms," like Memory charms and such? I don't know if there's anything in the books to support this, it's completely random--but I wonder if we'll see more of Snape's "mind skills" in the next two books. Hmmm...

~pm


Solitaire - Oct 18, 2004 10:14 am (#2862 of 2956)
I wonder if it is possible to block an Obliviate! charm? You'd have to be pretty fast! Would Protego! just deflect it or cause it to rebound? Are there any Shield Charms that would cause a curse to rebound on the one who cast it?


T Brightwater - Oct 18, 2004 11:41 am (#2863 of 2956)
Potions Mistress, I agree with you about Snape's loyalties, though good cases have been made that he is either really loyal to Voldemort - or loyal to no one but himself.

What Lina was suggesting (my apologies if I misunderstood you, Lina) is that Snape's mission at the end of GoF, under Dumbledore's instructions and with his knowledge, was to return to Voldemort and resume his role among the DEs as a double agent. At that time he told Voldemort something about the prophecy - not sure how much, but enough to re-establish himself in Voldemort's mind as a trustworthy agent, and also perhaps enough to make Voldemort think twice about trying again to kill Harry. Obviously Snape didn't tell him everything about the prophecy or he wouldn't have been so obsessed with hearing it.

Voldemort does try to kill Harry at the MoM, but only after learning that the prophecy has been lost. It seems that he returns to his original plan in sheer frustration, without considering possible consequences.


Potions Mistress - Oct 18, 2004 1:09 pm (#2864 of 2956)
Solitaire, I agree that you'd really have to be on your toes to protect yourself from the obliviate charm (and others similar to it). I don't think it is likely that one can do it--look at Lockhart for example. I'm sure those wizards and witches tried to protect themselves, but were obviously unsuccessful. That's why I wonder if Occlumency would be a good defense.

T Brightwater, I think you have a pretty good theory going about Snape' "return" to LV. What I find interesting about LV is not only that he tried to kill Harry himself, but possessed Harry and tried to get DD to do his dirty work for him. Makes me wonder how much of the Prophecy he knows (how much Snape might have told him?). I really, really, REALLY want HBP to come out. (Of course, I'll read it in a day, then spend the next couple years whining for book 7 to come out. Wink )

~pm


Madame Pomfrey - Oct 18, 2004 1:25 pm (#2865 of 2956)
My thoughts exactly.Dumbledore has repeatedly told Harry that he has his reasons for trusting Snape.Dumdledore has watched Voldemorts actions and through them knows Snape has done his bidding.gee, I hope I'm making sense.


Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 18, 2004 2:06 pm (#2866 of 2956)
I really, really, REALLY want HBP to come out. (Of course, I'll read it in a day, then spend the next couple years whining for book 7 to come out. Wink ) --Potions Mistress

Same here, PM!


Choices - Oct 18, 2004 4:30 pm (#2867 of 2956)
I am wondering if Dumbledore sent Snape off to put into action the next part of Dumbledore's plan. It is my belief that Dumbledore has a plan for the defeat of Voldemort and that when Voldemort took blood from Harry in the graveyard, that accomplished a part of the plan (thus Dumbledore's look of satisfaction when he heard about it). When Dumbledore sends Snape off, telling him he knows what he must do, I think