A Muggleborn Death Eater

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A Muggleborn Death Eater

Post  Elanor on Sat May 21, 2011 11:20 am

A Muggleborn Death Eater

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

Soul Search - May 30, 2007 10:25 am
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 4, 2007 6:20 am
On the Spinner's End Dissected thread wynnleaf cited the following from JKR's website:

Apart from Harry, Snape is my favourite character because he is so complex and I just love him. ... Also, is he a pure blood wizard? Snape’s ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle born, because Muggle borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances.
wynnleaf then commented:
The interesting thing here is that her quote implies that halfbloods can be DEs with no problem, it's the muggleborns which can only be DEs in special circumstances. So who is the "special circumstance?" Wow -- new thread, anyone?
So, this discussion is related to the muggleborn Death Eater, the "rare circumstance," and how all that may play out in Deathly Hallows. Given the citation, there must be one and there must be some significance.

Far as I can remember, no Death Eater has been identified as being muggleborn, so that revelation must be awaiting Deathly Hallows. We do have names for Death Eaters who have played no particular role, they may be good candidates. We can probably rule out some Death Eaters, for example Crabbe and Goyle, since they seem to be pureblood. (Malfoy associates with them.)

The only "rare circumstance" I can think of would be someone so evil they fit well as a Death Eater. Maybe Fenrir Greyback.

The muggleborn Death Eater must have some role in Deathly Hallows. Any hints from canon? All I can think of is Avery, who might be the other spy hinted at in PoA, the Three Broomsticks, discussion.

Not sure there is much to go on, but it is a bit of a puzzle.
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A Muggleborn Death Eater (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Sat May 21, 2011 11:22 am

rambkowalczyk - May 30, 2007 12:56 pm (#1 of 81)
I immediately thought of Peter Pettigrew, mainly because he was so crucial to Voldemort's plan to spy on the Order. No one would suspect him because he was weak and because he was Muggleborn.

Granted nowhere does it say Peter was Muggleborn. Just my gut reaction.

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Neville Longbottom - May 30, 2007 1:18 pm (#2 of 81)

Maybe a Muggleborn will become a Death Eater in book 7. Maybe we should suspect some Muggleborn students?

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Soul Search - May 30, 2007 2:23 pm (#3 of 81)

rambkowalczyk,

Good thought about Pettigrew. And, Voldemort does treat him like a ninth class Death Eater, in spite of Pettigrew performing the rather important service of helping him get his body back. Being close to the Potters would certainly be a "rare circumstance."

Pettigrew sounds like a good bet.

Neville Longbottom,

I don't see any Slytherin students, best candidates for becoming Death Eaters, that are Muggleborn. I think those for which we have names have been demonstrated to be pureblood.

We do have Finch-Fletchley (or whatever) and a couple of cited Muggleborns who are not Slytherin. What "rare circumstance?"

What about adult wizards? Umbridge? Fudge? Dawlish?

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journeymom - May 30, 2007 4:13 pm (#4 of 81)

Fudge demonstrates what happens when basically good people refuse to take action. Umbridge demonstrates mundane, bureaucratic evil. Sirius said of her that people aren't categorized as good guys and Death Eaters. My vote is for Peter Pettigrew. Aside from the fact that his mother received his posthumous Order of Merlin and his finger in a box, do we know anything about his family?

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Choices - May 30, 2007 6:00 pm (#5 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think Fenrir Greyback is more than likely a Muggle who was bitten and became the leader of the werewolf community. I am not sure if he is a certified member of the DE's or not, but I think he has been recruited by Voldemort and is helping the dark side. We have not seen him do magic, nor has there been any mention of him having a wand. Just my opinion.

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Mediwitch - May 30, 2007 7:39 pm (#6 of 81)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
I believe Grayback is a Death Eater, as Snape mentions him among the list of DEs who believed Voldemort to be dead in his conversation with Bella in "Spinner's End".

Pettigrew seems like a likely suspect for the muggleborn DE. He certainly meets the criteria of a "rare circumstance" if he actually is Muggleborn.

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journeymom - May 30, 2007 9:55 pm (#7 of 81)

What would it take for a muggleborn to join Voldemort's 'cause'? Wouldn't that require a lot of self loathing, for a muggleborn to join Voldemort in his anti-muggle, pro pureblood cause? Pettigrew certainly is loathsome. Maybe that's because he hates himself. (Sorry, just coudn't write 'loath' one more time. Ruins a perfectly good word.)

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Choices - May 31, 2007 12:38 pm (#8 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Mediwitch - "I believe Grayback is a Death Eater, as Snape mentions him among the list of DEs who believed Voldemort to be dead in his conversation with Bella in "Spinner's End"."

Snape does mention Greyback in the list, but he does not specifically say that they were all DE's. They are, however, all definitely followers of Voldemort. I still believe that Greyback may be a follower, but not necessarily a DE with Dark Mark on his arm and all, much like Voldemort uses the Inferi and Dementors to help him. They are not DE's, but they are on Voldemort's side and do his bidding.

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me and my shadow 813 - May 31, 2007 2:16 pm (#9 of 81)

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Edited May 31, 2007 2:47 pm
Good point, Choices. Fenrir was not mentioned (to our knowledge) at the graveyard and my sense is, if he was a DE, he would be an important one and mentioned by Vold during that scene. As far as we forumers discussed, I think we came up with Vold hinting at those missing as Karkaroff, Severus, Barty Jr., and the LeStranges. This says to me that Fenrir isn't a DE but Head Werewolf, the equivalent of Head Dementor, etc., within the ranks of the Dark Army.

I feel that Peter is the Muggle-born DE.

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Choices - May 31, 2007 6:04 pm (#10 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
It could very well be Peter. We know next to nothing about his background. We have only one mention of his mother when we are told that the piece of his finger that was found in that London street was sent to her. It's possible she and Peter's father are Muggles.

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Soul Search - Jun 3, 2007 9:16 am (#11 of 81)

Good discussion. I think we have well satisfied wynnleaf's original question. I think I, too, will go with Pettigrew as the Muggleborn Death Eater, with Greyback as an also-ran.

How about the last part of the original post:"... and how all that may play out in Deathly Hallows. Given the citation, there must be one and there must be some significance."

Pettigrew must still have some role to play. How will his being Muggleborn be any kind of a factor? All I can think of is that his being Muggleborn causes Voldemort and other Death Eaters to treat him poorly. He does not receive anywhere near the respect he thinks he should deserve for bringing back their Dark Lord.

Everytime Pettigrew appeared in GoF Voldemort was berating him for something. Threatened him with Nagini. Told him what a poor wizard he was. Even when Voldemort told the other Death Eaters how Pettigrew found him, he also had to point out that Pettigrew did so out of fear, rather than love of the Dark Lord.

In HBP "Spinner's End" Snape calls him "Wormtail." That can't be showing any kind of respect; basically, Snape is calling him a rat! The appellation was from Pettigrew's school days and originally used by his "friends;" Snape shouldn't even have known about it, let alone be using it now.

Pettigrew isn't in the main room when Narcissa and Bellatrix call on Snape. Snape embarasses Pettigrew by revealing that he is hiding and then calling him "Wormtail." Pettigrew greets Narcissa and Bellatrix, but they make no response to him. Fellow Death Eaters don't even acknowledge his existance. He brings the elf made wine, but no one thanks him. No courtesies are shown to "Wormtail." Snape implies that Pettigrew is there as his servant because the Dark Lord doesn't consider him of any value.


So, Pettigrew being Muggleborn (and maybe his nature as well) has caused him to be treated poorly and for him to be dissatisfied with his current status with Voldemort and among Death Eaters. He might even be fearful for his life, as well.

What will Pettigrew do?

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Madam Pince - Jun 3, 2007 9:44 am (#12 of 81)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Edited Jun 3, 2007 10:52 am
He must've been sorted into Gryffindor for a reason. I think he'll finally show the courage he should've had earlier and will turn on Voldy, for all the reasons Soul Search lists.

He won't be successful, though. Maybe he'll manage to kill Greyback with the silver hand or something, but he won't kill Voldemort. Maybe he'll die giving some useful horcrux clue to Harry?

(Yay! That's the first time I think I've ever typed "horcrux" without first mis-typing "horcrus"... )

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Soul Search - Jun 3, 2007 9:52 am (#13 of 81)

Madam Pince,

"He must've been sorted into Gryffindor for a reason."

Good point. We haven't seen much from Pettigrew that would recommend him to Gryffindor House. He did go seek out Voldemort, but that doesn't quite fit the Gryffindor image.

Somehow, if Pettigrew is going to turn heroic, I see it as a last resort, something he is forced into, rather than a willing change of character.

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Elanor - Jun 3, 2007 11:13 am (#14 of 81)

Pettigrew cut his own hand though for Voldemort's rebirthing potion. It was for Dark purposes and he must not have had the choice but still, he showed some courage! **shudders at the thought of cutting one's own hand**

I agree though that he will truly become a Gryffindor in the DH.

He must have had some kind of talent in his young years though since Sirius, James and Lupin accepted him in their little group, even if he never was as brilliant as his friends. I really wonder what Sirius, James and Lupin found in him... Peter was acting as a foil to the other three, true, but IMO it just isn't quite enough to explain his presence in the quartet...

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Soul Search - Jun 3, 2007 2:17 pm (#15 of 81)

Adding to Pettigrew's character deficiencies must be the "rare circumstance" that allowed him to become a Death Eater. Pettigrew was close to the Potters.

We don't know whether he was persuaded, coerced, or if he volunteered to turn traitor but he did, betraying his long-time friends, becoming a Death Eater in the process.

No one trusts a known traitor. Voldemort doesn't want Petttigrew around, sending him off with Snape. Snape doesn't want him around either; he exposes him to the sisters and then treats him as a servant. The sisters demonstrate the Death Eater opinion of the traitor Pettigrew by not even showing him any recognition.

All this has to contribute to Pettigrew's disappointment in his situation with Voldemort and to even cause him some worry.

I have to wonder what the Sorting Hat saw in the eleven-year-old Peter Pettigrew.

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Choices - Jun 3, 2007 2:22 pm (#16 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Soul Search - "I have to wonder what the Sorting Hat saw in the eleven-year-old Peter Pettigrew."

It obviously saw something that others can't see. I think Peter will eventually show courage/bravery and it may be the last thing he ever does.

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zelmia - Jun 4, 2007 9:19 pm (#17 of 81)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Sirius, James and Lupin accepted him in their little group, even if he never was as brilliant as his friends.

I would suggest that each had their own reasons for "accepting" Pettigrew. James was popular and an athlete. He had money and talent. But he loved and thrived on attention and the worshipping Pettigrew was there to give it to him.
Sirius, though attractive and popular in his own right, was always going to be second to James. And like James, his brother of choice, he needed a disciple.
For Lupin, Pettigrew being around made him less of an outcast. Pettigrew was the pandering little supplicant who made even Lupin look normal.
But he turned traitor - by his own admission - because he believed they were fighting a lost cause and he wanted to make sure he was on the winning side. He made himself valuable to Voldemort by being close to James. And for Voldemort's return, he made himself valuable by being the only Death Eater to seek Voldemort out, nurse him, and ultimately bring about Voldemort's rebirth.
I would say all of these acts take a certain amount of bravery. Even treachery, on some level, requires the courage to abandon everything and everyone you once knew. ("It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to our enemies, but a great deal more to stand up to our friends").

Mind you, that doesn't mean I think what he did was right. I agree with Sirius, who would rather die than betray those close to him.

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Solitaire - Jun 4, 2007 10:05 pm (#18 of 81)

all of these acts take a certain amount of bravery

I agree that cutting off his hand took a perverse kind of bravery, particularly since the act would bring back to life the one Wizard feared by the entire magical world and ultimately inform the world that it was he who betrayed the Potters and sent an innocent man to Azkaban for 12 years. I don't agree that it took any bravery to betray his friends. From my perspective, that was strictly cowardice. Pettigrew simply valued his own life more than the lives of his friends. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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Madam Pince - Jun 5, 2007 8:23 am (#19 of 81)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I see what you're saying, though, zelmia. It is perverse, but it did involve turning his back on something that had been a dysfunctional kind of support-system for him. I suppose you could call that some weird kind of bravery. Not a typical definition, but I see what you mean. Good observations about the Marauders' relationships, too.

Isn't that odd -- the same act can be seen as both bravery and cowardice at the same time? Interesting.

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Thom Matheson - Jun 5, 2007 8:57 am (#20 of 81)

My trouble with the hand thing is that we know that any wizard blood would have worked to bring back Voldemort. It was his choice to get the blood from Harry. But, wasn't the hand bleeding from Wormtail? Wouldn't that have co-mingled with Harry? Also wouldn't some of Wormtail be mingled with Voldemort?

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Soul Search - Jun 5, 2007 9:07 am (#21 of 81)

I would have to say Pettigrew abandoning his friends and their cause would be a coward's response to adversity. Basically, Pettigrew took the easy way out. Dumbledore cautions against taking the easy route at the end of GoF with his "Remember Cedric Diggory" speech.

We don't know if Pettigrew was coerced or volunteered to join Voldemort but, either way, defying Voldemort and staying with his friends' "good fight" would have been the braver act.

I also have to conclude Pettigrew isn't too bright. He couldn't see beyond his cowardly act to where it might lead. Turning traitor got him into Voldemort's ranks, but what could he have offered Voldemort after the Potters had been killed? Nothing. Voldemort only wanted Pettigrew because he was close to the Potters. The same situation arises after Pettegrew helps Voldemort get his body back. Once Voldemort gets his body and is strong again he has no use for Pettigrew. Couldn't Pettigrew see that coming?

Strangely, Pettigrew, by betraying the Potters and bringing Voldemort back, is responsible for most of the evil acts we have seen in the series, yet I don't see his character as fundamentally evil. I'll bet this has been expressed better, but the lesson seems to be that taking the easy way out when faced with adversity can be more "evil" than most evil acts themselves.

I am still trying to understand how Pettigrew being Muggleborn will have any significance to the storyline. Is it possible Pettigrew's "taking the easy way out" will be connected to his Muggle heritage?

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Solitaire - Jun 5, 2007 10:37 am (#22 of 81)

Since I didn't want to get off-topic here, I've posted more about Peter in a different context over on his thread.

Solitaire

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wynnleaf - Jun 5, 2007 12:50 pm (#23 of 81)

Somehow I missed this thread starting.

JKR made those comments about the muggleborn death eater in "rare circumstances" well after the publication of POA when we all learned that Peter was a DE. In fact, she said that in Aug. 2004, I believe after OOTP was out. I don't necessarily think she was thinking of Peter when she said that, else why not just say "like Peter" as she gave the answer?

Also, the "rare circumstances" sounds interesting. In other words, she didn't just say "muggleborns become Death Eaters only rarely," but only "in rare circumstances," implying, in my opinion, that she meant that the circumstances themselves would be special, not just that it rarely occurred. So that leads me to think that a muggleborn would join, or be allowed to join, only for special circumstances.

A werewolf muggleborn might fit a special sort of "rare circumstance" in that LV is trying to recruit werewolves, so he might not be picky about their background. Plus, because all werewolves, regardless of parentage could have reason to want to overturn the MOM government, it's believable that even a muggleborn werewolf could side with LV. However, it's less believable that any other muggleborn wizard or witch would side with LV, if for no other reason than LV and DEs could be extremely hazardous to the wizard's family. Peter, as I recall, lived with him mom after Hogwarts (didn't Sirius go looking for him there?), so if Peter was muggleborn, he was not estranged from his family.

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Solitaire - Jun 5, 2007 4:11 pm (#24 of 81)

Perhaps the "rare circumstance" was that Peter--making the big assumption that he is Muggle-born--could provide inside information on the Order, not to mention he could "deliver" the Potters into Voldemort's hand. Given such a promise, Voldemort might well admit a Muggle-born into his midst. Just wild speculation, of course ...

Solitaire

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Thom Matheson - Jun 6, 2007 6:53 am (#25 of 81)

Like Dudley for instance? That would be one way for him to get back at Harry.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 6, 2007 10:54 am (#26 of 81)

In Voldemort's warped sensibilities wouldn't half-bloods constitute a form of muggleborns?

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Solitaire - Jun 6, 2007 2:57 pm (#27 of 81)

If so, then he must consider himself as such. After all, Voldemort himself has a Muggle parent.

As for Dudley ... he is a Muggle, not a Muggle-born. Remember Rowling's response to the question about Dudley (Edinburgh Book Festival, Sunday 15 August 2004):

Is there more to Dudley than meets the eye?

No. [Laughter]. What you see is what you get. I am happy to say that he is definitely a character without much back story. He is just Dudley. The next book, Half Blood Prince, is the least that you see of the Dursleys. You see them quite briefly. You see them a bit more in the final book, but you don’t get a lot of Dudley in book six—very few lines. I am sorry if there are Dudley fans out there, but I think you need to look at your priorities if it is Dudley that you are looking forward to. [Laughter].

I do not see Dudley as a DE. He could never handle getting the Dark Mark. As to getting back at Harry (What for?), I think it more likely that he would go into hiding to avoid Harry getting back at him for the ten long years of bullying and misery he inflicted on Harry. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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sstabeler - Jun 18, 2007 6:39 am (#28 of 81)

Solitaire, Dudley has a few things to get back at harry for. the Boa, for one. also, what about taking Dudley's second bedroom? Dudley certainly seems petty enough to want to get back at Harry for that. then there is the fact that Harry will be inviting a couple of wizarding friends over for a couple of weeks. worse, ones that are not underage, so for all Dudley knows, he could get another pig tail. or worse, be turned into an actual pig. come to think of it, I would like to see Hermione's reaction to how the Dursleys have treated Harry.

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Solitaire - Jun 18, 2007 9:31 am (#29 of 81)

If Jo is to be believed ... her comment--that where Dudley is concerned, "what you see is what you get"--seems to rule out Dudley for magical powers. I still say that Dudley should be making plans to stay out of Harry's way. That said, Harry has bigger fish to fry, and he is not going to want to complicate his business with a bunch of legal troubles attendant to messing with the Dursleys. As long as they do not attempt their usual abuse, I figure they will be safe from any serious retaliation. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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Choices - Jun 18, 2007 9:54 am (#30 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
SStabeler - "...then there is the fact that Harry will be inviting a couple of wizarding friends over for a couple of weeks."

I don't think we know this for sure. A person who is unwelcome in someone's home would hardly show up and bring two of his friends to stay with him. Harry doesn't want to be at the Dursleys and I seriously doubt he would subject his friends to their rude and unfriendly behavior. I think Ron and Hermione will be at the Weasleys and perhaps join Harry as he leaves the Dursleys for good, or Harry will leave and join Hermione and Ron at The Burrow.

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Solitaire - Jun 18, 2007 10:34 am (#31 of 81)

I tend to agree with Choices. After all, Harry does not own the Dursley house, and they have made no secret of the fact that he is not welcome. I really do not see him moving Ron and Hermione in lock, stock, and barrel. Hermione, on the other hand--as a Muggleborn--might be in a good position to help Harry get what he needs from Aunt Petunia. She might be more able to get past the Dursleys' fears.

Solitaire

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Steve Newton - Jun 18, 2007 11:27 am (#32 of 81)

Librarian
She could even offer free dental!

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Soul Search - Jun 18, 2007 1:14 pm (#33 of 81)

Choices,

A person who is unwelcome in someone's home would hardly show up and bring two of his friends to stay with him.

Sounds good, but I don't think it will work out that way. Harry has to go back to #4 Privet Drive: Dumbledore wanted him to. Ron has said he and Hermione will go anywhere Harry does.

Sounds to me like the trio will be at Privet Drive, no matter what the Dursleys want.

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Choices - Jun 18, 2007 1:18 pm (#34 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Soul Search, you are certainly entitled to see it that way. For me, I will be greatly surprised if Hermione and Ron stay with the Dursleys. We'll just have to wait and see. :-)

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Jenniffler - Jun 18, 2007 5:54 pm (#35 of 81)

Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
Steve Newton She could even offer free dental!

LOL Petunia with Braces! ROFL. Free dentures for Dudley. A boxer loses teeth regularly, I'd think. Vernon could lay back and have someone else do the drilling. Ooo! The possibilities are endless.

If they survive. Duhn, duhn, duhn(Scary musical cue.)

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 18, 2007 10:14 pm (#36 of 81)

I think that Ron and Hermione will accompany Harry,also. I don't think it will be overnight,however. All Harry has to do is show up there,right? Is there a specific length of time he has to stay that I have overlooked? I though perhaps Hermione would be the one to get answers from Petunia. Also, I wonder,while Harry cannot master occlumency,maybe he can do legilmency.He was able to break into Snapes mind,after all.

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Solitaire - Jun 18, 2007 11:37 pm (#37 of 81)

If Snape truly wants to help Harry, perhaps HE will allow Harry to penetrate his mind ... assuming Harry can turn off the hatred long enough to pay attention. Or perhaps Harry will begin using Legilimency on LV. You never know ...

I agree, Madame Pomfrey, that if anything is needed from Aunt Petunia, Hermione will be the one to break through the prejudices there. Not only is she the one of the trio with the most common sense, but she also looks like a "regular girl" and packs a surprising amount of authority for her age. She might just be able to make even Uncle Vernon sit up and pay attention ... of course, I am not going to hold my breath on that one!

Solitaire

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MickeyCee3948 - Jun 30, 2007 8:36 pm (#38 of 81)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
He has to be there until his birthday. I believe that R/H will be at #4 at the request of Petunia. I expect it has something to do with Dudley but I'm not sure. Just seems a way for the Dursley's to get their just deserves.

Mickey

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Mediwitch - Jun 30, 2007 8:45 pm (#39 of 81)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Actually, MickeyCee, Harry left the Dursleys' before his birthday in HBP, so he doesn't need to stay that long.

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Choices - Jul 1, 2007 11:24 am (#40 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Good thought Mediwitch - Harry did celebrate his birthday at The Burrow.

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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 1:24 am (#41 of 81)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
How exactly would the Dursley's *stop* the trio from staying at number four? Hermoine and Ron are of age now. They'd just hex 'em.

And how did this thread get so off topic? Smile

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Solitaire - Jul 3, 2007 11:42 am (#42 of 81)

I do not believe Ron and Hermione can just hex the Dursleys. There are legal repercussions for performing magic on Muggles (Muggle Protection Act), unless I'm much mistaken.

And yes, we are off-topic. We are supposed to be suggesting who might have been the Muggle-born DE. I believe it is Pettigrew ... or one of the other first generation of DEs.

Solitaire

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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 12:04 pm (#43 of 81)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
The Dursleys don't know that. Wink Moody used a threat against them, with great results.

I'm leaning towards Greyback. Those special circumstances are probably when something is so inherently evil, that it only makes sense for them to be death eaters.

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Choices - Jul 3, 2007 6:57 pm (#44 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think it is possible that Fenrir is Muggleborn, but I'm not sure he is a DE. I think he may be just helping Voldemort, like the dementors, giants, etc. are - he likes the freedom to do pretty much as he pleases with Voldemort's gang. I doubt he is sworn in and branded with the Dark Mark like a regular DE.

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Hoot Owl - Jul 3, 2007 10:38 pm (#45 of 81)

Teacher
The problem with making Wormtail a muggleborn it would prove the Slytheryn concept that Muggleborn wizards are not trustworthy!

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Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 11:36 pm (#46 of 81)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Choices, I was thinking this for a while too, but it makes sense that Fenrir could be a DE. (Think about Lupin being a member of the OP.)

Hoot Owl, I don't see how this proves that muggle-borns are not to be trusted. It would be the same as saying that Voldemort proves that half-bloods who were raised by muggles can not be trusted. Wink

Also, I'm still in the camp that Pettigrew could very well have been Slythern, and not Gryffindor. His personality sure fitys Slythern better than Gryff.

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Choices - Jul 4, 2007 10:19 am (#47 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Hagsquid - "Choices, I was thinking this for a while too, but it makes sense that Fenrir could be a DE. (Think about Lupin being a member of the OP.)"

Lupin being in the Order and Fenrir being in the DE's is so totally different. Lupin is kind, gentle and a good person - he joined the Order to fight evil. Dumbledore is a kind and strong leader, but he is not anyone's "master". Fenrir is a vicious, evil person who preys on children. He has his own agenda and is very independent. He is the leader of his band of werewolves. That is why I don't see him as joining the DE's as an actual member and becoming subservient to Voldemort. Fenrir would be reluctant to accept anyone as his "master". I think he is willing to run with the DE's and help Voldemort, but I don't see him giving up his position of leadership to kowtow to Voldemort. Being independent allows Fenrir to see himself as assisting Voldemort, being someone that Voldemort calls on for help, but not being under Voldemort's thumb like the DE's are. Just my opinion.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 4, 2007 11:15 am (#48 of 81)

Does Fenir have any magic abilities? I don't recall him using any magic,just biting.When he offered to kill Dumbledore I got the impression that he would rip his throat out not A.K. him. If this is true,he could just be a muggle born sqib with no other power except to terrorize and make others suffer.

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Choices - Jul 4, 2007 11:24 am (#49 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think that is very much a possibility Madame Pomfrey.

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Hoot Owl - Jul 4, 2007 1:29 pm (#50 of 81)

Teacher
Hagsquid, the term I should have used is it reinforces the stated Salazar Slytheryn belief that Muggleborns are not to be trusted! That Magical education should not be extended to them.

Also if Fenir is muggleborn that would mean he can not be a squib, because a squib is a non-magical offspring of Wizarding parents, or so the books say.
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A Muggleborn Death Eater (Post 51 to 81)

Post  Elanor on Sat May 21, 2011 11:22 am

Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 2:10 pm (#51 of 81)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Well... Fenrir was able to make it through the magical barrier at the end of HBP. This at least suggests that he has *some* magical ability.

I'm, agian, making the assumption that he attacked Bill *after* the barrier was created, thus suggesting that he was on the outside of the barrier, and forgive me if this information didn't come directly from JKR to my ears. Smile

Assuming my assumption is correct, then, if Harry was correct, and you need a Dark Mark to pass through the barrier, then that would constitute proof that Fenrir is a Death Eater. Otherwise, it only proves that Fenrir has some magical ability.

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Soul Search - Jul 5, 2007 7:49 am (#52 of 81)

The tower exchange between Dumbledore and Greyback suggested Dumbledore knew Greyback. More than Dumbledore knowing "of" Greyback. My read is Greyback was at Hogwarts (before being bitten.) That would imply Greyback had magical abilities.

Greyback seems to prefer biting and slashing victims to using mere magic to kill.

Greyback could still be a muggleborn wizard, but, absent even a hint in canon, we have to assume Greyback is magical and a true Death Eater.

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Allison R - Jul 5, 2007 9:22 am (#53 of 81)

Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
The problem is that we don't know what limitations were made on passing through the barrier-- Harry thought you might have only needed a Dark Mark to pass through it, if I'm recalling correctly. If Fenrir does have a Dark Mark, though, then he must at least be able to apparate and disapparate so that he could appear at the Dark Lord's side when summoned, right? Which would make him not a Muggle, hmmm.

The idea that Dumbledore knew Fenrir from somewhere-- probably at Hogwarts before being bitten-- makes a lot of sense to me.

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Choices - Jul 5, 2007 10:42 am (#54 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Soul Search - "...but, absent even a hint in canon, we have to assume Greyback is magical and a true Death Eater."

Soul Search - "My read is Greyback was at Hogwarts (before being bitten.) That would imply Greyback had magical abilities."

I am not disagreeing with you Soul Search, you may very well be totally correct. But, may I suggest that we do not have to assume that Grayback is magical and a true DE. Some of us may just as easily assume that he isn't either of those things. We have never seen him with a wand or seen him do magic. We haven't seen his Dark Mark, if he has one, we have not seen him respond to Voldemort when he summoned his DE's - we just have seen no proof that Grayback is magical or that he is a member in good standing of the DE's. On the other hand, we haven't seen proof that he isn't. So, if we're going to assume, we can easily assume either way.

About Dumbledore knowing Grayback - you think it is because Grayback attended Hogwarts and must be magical. I tend to think that Dumbledore knows Grayback because Dumbledore likes to know his enemies. He probably became familiar with Grayback years ago when Lupin first came to Hogwarts, if he didn't already know about him. Dumbledore being active in the court system of the wizarding world - the Wizengamot - is probably familiar with all the criminal types in the wizarding world. Grayback may have been tried in the courts at some time. As the headmaster of a school full of children and knowing Grayback's penchant for biting children, I would venture to say that Dumbledore keeps a close eye on him and knows his history, just as he knows Tom Riddle/Voldemort's history. Grayback could easily have been at Hogwarts before being bitten, or he could just as easily have gone to public school.

As I said, Soul Search, you may be correct, but I just wanted to present another side to the story - just my opinion.

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Hagsquid - Jul 5, 2007 11:41 am (#55 of 81)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Well... we know that he is somehow able to pass through the barrier, a barrier that Lupin could not figure out how to get through, nor could the other members of the Order.

He's also able to get into Hogwarts (admittedly through the use of the vanishing cabinet) and there are no other incidents where muggles are seen at Hogwarts that I can think of.

This isn't cold-hard evidence that he *is* magical, but it's hints that he's not just a werewolf. Somehow he gets through that barrier, and I don't see it being done by a non-magical person.

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Joanne Reid - Jul 5, 2007 11:43 am (#56 of 81)

Hi,

I must put on my professorial robes for just a moment. A few words have been thrown around, causing a certain degree of ill-feeling and, by so doing, obfuscating this discussion. Let me provide some reference.

1. Canon - That which is known to be true, because it was written in one of the Harry Potter novels or because it was either written or stated by Joanne Rowling: This is what we must accept as true. It is the only truth, and only JKR can provide it.

2. Assume - To take as granted or as true: None of us on this forum may perform this mental actitivity regarding the novels or their outcomes. We are not in control of truth or knowledge. We are readers - avid readers it must be admitted, but readers nonetheless

3. Speculate - To provide a considered opinion, based upon previous reason or testamony: This is what we can do and are doing in this forum. We are speculating (guessing, if you will) on fates, actions and roles of various of our beloved characters. That is our role, and that is our purpose. As a community, we share our fondest hopes and our darkest nightmares regarding the fictional characters that we have come to know and to love.

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Ginerva Potter - Jul 6, 2007 7:53 am (#57 of 81)

I would like to throw out the canon evidence about the Tower to help clear things up a bit.

Chapter 29, The Phoenix Lament, pg.620, US Scholastic version

"We were in trouble, we were losing," said Tonks in a low voice. "Gibbon was down, but the rest of the Death Eaters seemed ready to fight to the death. Neville had been hurt, Bill had been savaged by Greyback...It was all dark...curses flying everywhere...The Malfoy boy had vanished, he must have slipped past, up the stairs...then more of them ran after him, but one of them blocked the stair behind them with some kind of curse...Neville ran at it and got thrown up into the air-"

The emphasis is mine. Greyback didn't have to go through the barrier. It was created after the Death Eaters went up the tower. It also goes on to say that a Death Eater fires off a hex and it caves in the ceiling. The ceiling caving in broke the curse blocking the stairs. So, Greyback didn't have to go through it on the way down either.

The only reason I'm throwing this out there is to show we don't have any evidence that Greyback has or doesn't have magical ability. All we know for sure is that he is a werewolf and he is working with Voldemort.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 6, 2007 9:05 am (#58 of 81)

Great catch,Ginerva! We also have no evidence that Greyback was at the rebirthing,therefore,apparated.

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Choices - Jul 6, 2007 10:34 am (#59 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Hagsquid - "He's also able to get into Hogwarts (admittedly through the use of the vanishing cabinet) and there are no other incidents where muggles are seen at Hogwarts that I can think of."

Unless I am mistaken, there is at least one incidence when Muggles came to Hogwarts. Moaning Myrtle was Muggle born and when she died, her parents came to Hogwarts to claim her body. Tom Riddle tells us so in COS, chapter The Very Secret Diary.

May I add my thanks to Ginerva for that excellent catch. Good work!

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Ginerva Potter - Jul 6, 2007 12:04 pm (#60 of 81)

Thanks! I just happened to have my copy of HBP by my computer and thought I'd look it up to help with the debate.

Honestly, I've never really thought about Greyback being magical. I've just seen him as a werewolf who is disgusting to go after children. *shudders*

And since we are on the discussion, I have to agree with whoever it was that said Greyback isn't a death eater. I think of him as the leader of the werewolfs. Voldemort is manipulative. He promised Greyback fresh prey, but he probably didn't have to try very hard to get Greyback to side with him. Lupin tells us in HBP that Greyback doesn't like wizards. I think that once Voldemort starts to win the war against wizards, he will go after the other groups that helped him win. **imagine big booming voice** He wants to take over the world!! Wah,ah,ah JM2K though...

Ginny

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Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 1:13 am (#61 of 81)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.

Unless I am mistaken, there is at least one incidence when Muggles came to Hogwarts. Moaning Myrtle was Muggle born and when she died, her parents came to Hogwarts to claim her body. Tom Riddle tells us so in COS, chapter The Very Secret Diary.


Surely they would have been invited and enchantments lifted? Doubtful that DD invited Greyback (though not canon.) This did, after all, occur before the rise of the dark lord.

Though, Ginny's catch was awesome covered awesome! Very Happy

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Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 10:17 am (#62 of 81)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Desperately trying to keep this discussion going, I decided to take a page out of Ginny's book, and reread the chapter. Wink

"Do it," said the stranger standing nearest to Harry, a big, rangy man with matted grey hair and whiskers, whose black Death Eater's robes looked uncomfortably tight. [...] "Is that you Fenrir?" asked Dumbledore.

Well... it's not proof that he *is* a death eater, but it is proof that he wears Death Eater robes, and I think that's a pretty good clue that he is, in fact, a Death Eater. If he were muggle-born, then it would make sense that Voldemort would allow a muggle-born person to be a death eater if his intent was evil enough.

This is, of course, assuming that he's muggle-born.

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Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 10:34 am (#63 of 81)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Heh. Later in the same chapter, when Snape shows up, his eyes flash from DD to the "four death-eaters including the enraged werewolf and Malfoy." Then, a bit more on, Snape pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way, and the "three death eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewolf seemed cowed."

I think when she says "including the werewolf, and Malfoy" the "including the werewolf" includes him as one of the four deatheaters.

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Hagsquid - Jul 9, 2007 12:31 am (#64 of 81)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Malfoy tells Borgan that Fenrir will be stopping in to check up on him. Can muggles get into Diagon Alley?

I conclude that Fenrir Greyback is the muggle-born Death Eater.

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Steve Newton - Jul 9, 2007 4:42 am (#65 of 81)

Librarian
Yes, Muggles can come into Diagon Alley. I think that it is in COS that we see Hermione's parents. (Please, don't let this be movie contamination.)

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Hagsquid - Jul 9, 2007 5:14 am (#66 of 81)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Nope. I remember that bit in the book as well.

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Choices - Jul 9, 2007 11:27 am (#67 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Muggles can come into Diagon Alley, but I think they have to come in with a magical person.

There were six people on the tower who were supposedly Voldemort's people, whether all of them were DE's is unknown. Draco (?), Fenrir (?), Snape, Amycus, Alecto, and the brutal-faced man. The last three are DE's for sure, Snape has the Dark Mark, but is he really a DE? It's possible Draco has the Dark Mark on his arm (or a werewolf bite) and is a DE, and I still think Fenrir is out for himself and may or may not be a real DE (why the hint that his DE robes were too tight? Were they just borrowed?). Before Snape makes his appearance, the brutal-faced man is referred to as the fourth DE (there were 5 possible DE's on the tower) - Draco, Fenrir, Amycus, Alecto, and brutal-face. Who isn't counted as a DE? Fenrir or Draco?

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Paul Potter - Jul 9, 2007 11:39 am (#68 of 81)

Draco possibly wasn't a DE just yet this task was to be a test of his loyalty and if he passed he would become a DE. Just my thoughts none of this is said in the books

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Solitaire - Jul 9, 2007 2:11 pm (#69 of 81)

Malfoy tells Borgan that Fenrir will be stopping in to check up on him. Can muggles get into Diagon Alley?

Muggles are non-magical people. Muggle-borns are Witches and Wizards born to Muggle parents.

why the hint that his DE robes were too tight? Hopefully, it was not because he'd been having any extra "snacks" recently. It sounds as though he is becoming cannibalistic, based on DD's comments. Sorry ... I do not mean to gross anyone out ... but Fenrir is a gross character.

Solitaire

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legolas returns - Jul 9, 2007 2:15 pm (#70 of 81)

I thought that he rejected wizarding society. Getting well fitting robes would be the last thing on his mind. He may have had one too many snacks.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 9, 2007 5:19 pm (#71 of 81)

Choices,that's a very good question.After reading Ginerva's post,It sounds like both Draco and Fenrir missed having to go through the barrier.Fenrir in "Deatheaters robes" sounds odd.It sounds to me like he's wearing someone elses robes.I don't recall Deatheaters robes ever been mentioned before.I mean,why are they different from any other robes?

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Madam Pince - Jul 10, 2007 8:04 am (#72 of 81)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Well, they must be or else JKR wouldn't have differentiated and called them "Death Eater's robes." She says they're black. They're probably like a uniform or something, to go along with the special masks. Maybe embroidered with a green "D.E." crest or something.

I thought they were tight-fitting just because he was such a big man and possibly somewhat mis-shapen, even in his human form (although Lupin wasn't.) Fenrir has been a werewolf longer than Lupin, and may have taken on the big-shouldered, hump-backed look of a werewolf, which would make robes designed for a human not fit very well. At least, that's how I pictured him, sort of blending him in with my concept of a werewolf from the PoA movie...

Plus, I agree with some of the other posts above that he isn't a long-term Death Eater, he's just someone that Voldy's recently recruited and he joined because it suits his ends. He doesn't have custom-made robes -- he just threw some on from the supply closet at the Riddle House or whatever. He's a recent recruit. I don't think he's the muggle-born DE we're looking for in this thread. But I'm hardly ever right, so...

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Soul Search - Jul 10, 2007 11:40 am (#73 of 81)

In HBP, "Spinner's End," Snape defends his not seeking the Dark Lord and names other death eaters who, likewise, thought him finished. The list included "Greyback." So, Greyback was with Voldemort before Godric's Hollow. My read is his inclusion in a list of Death Eaters who could have, but did not, search for Voldemort also supports Greyback being a wizard. He could still be Muggleborn, but he is a wizard.

While we haven't had mention of Greyback using a wand, there haven't been that many opportunities. Most of what we learned of Greyback was second hand. The only first hand view was on the tower, where the death eaters didn't do any wand work, and his fight with Harry. Greyback "flew at him" quickly and Harry got the upper hand with a "Petrificus Totalus" spell. Greyback was petrified. Greyback launched himself at Harry, rather than use a spell, because he prefered biting and slashing, as example Bill Weasley, over wand use. Doesn't say he wasn't a wizard, just more a werewolf.

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Choices - Jul 10, 2007 11:50 am (#74 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
OK, I have to concede here that Greyback is a DE....according to the Lexicon. It says he has been one since the 1970's, although he is one because of being able to get blood, not for ideological reasons. He wants to create enough werewolves to overcome the wizards and revenge themselves on the wizarding world. He is a DE, but it makes me wonder if he is a wizard.

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Madam Pince - Jul 10, 2007 12:11 pm (#75 of 81)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Good research, Soul Search. You're right! (And as I said, I hardly ever am...)

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Luna Logic - Jul 10, 2007 2:20 pm (#76 of 81)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Madam Pince, perhaps the Book seven will be the triomph of all your theories? A few days of hope still above us…

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Madam Pince - Jul 10, 2007 2:41 pm (#77 of 81)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
As long as Book 7 shows us that Snape was indeed at Godric's Hollow on "that night," I will be a happy camper! ***waves at my champion, Finn***

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Hagsquid - Jul 16, 2007 7:00 am (#78 of 81)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Well, Wizard or not, it's definitely possible that Greyback *is* muggle-born, and most certainly a prime candidate for "rare circumstances." Razz

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S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2007 1:21 am (#79 of 81)

Let it snow!
Choices --He wants to create enough werewolves to overcome the wizards and revenge themselves on the wizarding world. He is a DE, but it makes me wonder if he is a wizard.--

If Greyback wasn't a wizard (Muggle-born or otherwise) and thus had contact with the wizarding world, why would he want revenge against them? Doesn't he want revenge because of the way the Wizard World treats werewolves as outcasts? Admittedly, he might have contact with Harry's world purely because he is a werewolf and thus might be subject to monitoring by the Ministry.....

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Choices - Jul 20, 2007 10:39 am (#80 of 81)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
S.E. Jones, I got that information from the Lexicon information on Greyback. I would think if he were a Muggle or Muggle born, he would want revenge against wizards who shunned him or treated werewolves badly. Now how he came to be involved with wizards or entered the wizarding world, I don't know. Perhaps Voldemort knew about bands or groups of werewolves and approached him as the leader of such a band. Dumbledore says that Tom Riddle left school and traveled widely, associating with the very worst of wizard kind. Perhaps he encountered werewolves during this time.

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Soul Search - Aug 5, 2007 2:03 pm (#81 of 81)

No answer to this one in Deathly Hallows.

We did see that Greyback wasn't a full Death Eater. At least, he wasn't an inner circle Death Eater with the Dark Mark and all.

Voldemort was supposed to have been using Greyback to recruit werewolves, but I don't recall seeing any besides Greyback. 'Course, hard to tell if it wasn't full moon.
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