Assumptions We've Been Making about Rest of Series

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Assumptions We've Been Making about Rest of Series

Post  Elanor on Sat May 21, 2011 11:30 am

Assumptions We've Been Making about Rest of Series


This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

KWeldon - Nov 19, 2004 1:24 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 2:55 pm
I've been thinking recently that there is little we can be sure of for the next two books. If there is one thing that JKR can be good at, it is giving us surprises. If you think you've got it all figured out from her clues, I'd suggest you visit threads and posts concerning predictions about Book 5 that were flat out wrong.

Perhaps this thread won't make the requirements, but I'd like to suggest that we discuss assumptions that we have been making about what will happen in the next two books. Keep in mind that this is different from predictions about what will happen. This thread will concern what we have been taking for granted will happen, as opposed to what we think will happen.

I'll start off with only three assumptions that I can think of offhand:

1. Voldemort will be defeated in some manner.

2. Harry has to live until the end of Book 7.

3. Dumbledore will never betray Harry.

Are there any other assumptions that can be made? Perhaps there are others that I am not thinking of, or perhaps even these few are controversial?



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Assumptions We've Been Making about Rest of Series (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Sat May 21, 2011 11:33 am

haymoni - Nov 19, 2004 6:02 pm (#1 of 247)
I think The Lexicon has a few assumptions listed about Book 6 like Neville will get a new wand, Ron will be able to Apparate - things like that.

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I Am Used Vlad - Nov 19, 2004 11:54 pm (#2 of 247)

I Am Almighty!
I've thought of an assumption that everyone seems to be making. Namely, everybody thinks that the four Houses will be united. Some think that a H/P 'ship will be the catalyst, others think it will be Nott or Blaise Zabini, but we all have been operating under the assumption that it will happen.

Even it we accept the Sorting Hat's new song from OotP as accurate, and JKR has only confirmed that it is sincere, that doesn't mean that the Houses will be united. The Hat says that Hogwarts will "crumble from within" if the houses don't unite, but the books are not about the survival of Hogwarts. There is the possibility that by the end of the series, Hogwarts will no longer exist as a school to train young witches and wizards.

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The giant squid - Nov 20, 2004 1:48 am (#3 of 247)

One glaring assumption I've seen (at least here on the Forum) is that there will be any 'shipping in the books. Other than Harry's disastrous dates with Cho, there's been very little emphasis on socializing. Frankly, with all the stuff we want to see in the next two books, I'm not sure there'll be room for any 'ships.

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Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 20, 2004 8:57 am (#4 of 247)

Or the 'ships will make the book that much longer....

But on the other hand, longer book equals more time to wait, and I have no patience!

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Tomoé - Nov 20, 2004 11:54 am (#5 of 247)

Back in business
polly weasley: Will Harry fall for another girl in book six, or will he be too busy for romance?
JK Rowling replies -> He'll be busy, but what's life without a little romance? (World Book Day, Mars 4th)

There will be romance in book 6.

Adele: Thanks for the interview! So... will Harry be receiving a second kiss in his last two years at Hogwarts? Wink
JK Rowling replies -> He might well be receiving another kiss (or two) but I'm not saying who the kisser's going to be...

Is it the same 'ship than above? We'll see.

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KWeldon - Nov 20, 2004 12:26 pm (#6 of 247)

One glaring assumption I've seen (at least here on the Forum) is that there will be any 'shipping in the books.

Although Tomoe is right that JKR confirms there will be more romance, I think many are assuming that it will be a bigger part of the book than, say, the Cho ship (and I'm not saying that you are one of them, Tomoe! Smile ). I disagree, even though I'd love to see it. There's just too much left to do. Unless....it involves a means for Harry to defeat Voldemort, which I highly doubt.

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Aud Duck - Nov 20, 2004 2:45 pm (#7 of 247)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
There will be treason in the next two books. Not that I disagree with this, but we all seem to take it for granted, and have moved on to speculating on who it will be.

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Hollywand - Nov 20, 2004 5:14 pm (#8 of 247)

Gryffindor
Regarding the romance question, Rowling replies that there will be romance, but her words seem to tread a very careful line. Those that are assuming Harry will have the romance and not one of the other characters could be in for an unexpected turn of events.

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Czarina II - Nov 20, 2004 5:34 pm (#9 of 247)

I'm actually thinking the romance will be among the supporting cast. Giving the main character a love interest does detract from the plot.

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Amilia Smith - Nov 21, 2004 10:12 am (#10 of 247)

Thanks for this thread! I have been making a few "assumptions," but they are not big enough or important enough to go on the predictions thread. So . . . based on experience with the previous books, here are some assumptions I have made.

Despite the greeting party's warnings at the end of OotP, the Dursleys will manage to make Harry miserable over the summer.

Harry will spend the summer moaning and groaning about the lack of news/communication/letters from the wizarding world. (The only book so far to not feature this as part of Harry's summer is GoF; even in SS, before Harry knew he was a wizard, he knew he wasn't getting letters.)

No one will tell Harry right out what is going on. I know DD said he has learned his lesson, but habits of 16 years' duration are hard to break. Besides, this is one of the main plot drivers. Something is happening, but no one wants Harry to worry, or get into trouble, or whatever, so he has to figure out what is up on his own.

Therefore, we will still need a DD explains all scene at the end of the book.

Mills.

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Choices - Nov 21, 2004 10:39 am (#11 of 247)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
We know that this will be the shortest stay for Harry with the Dursleys, so I think it is safe to assume that he won't have much time to lament not hearing from his friends or knowing what is going on. I think he will be busy with whatever it is that is going to make for the short stay at 4 Privet Drive.

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El Cronista de Salem - Nov 21, 2004 10:50 am (#12 of 247)

It is a fact that Ron will be able to Apparate, but it doesn't mean that he will want to have the license to Apparition. It is really different, and I don't consider it an assumption.

The Lexicon doesn't do so many assumptions. For example, they asked if Snape is a Slytherin, in spite that all the world would assuption it. No?

I find perfect that the Lexicon assumpted that Mark Evans was family of Harry. They give the option, but they didn't put it as a fact. We can't assumpt nothing of the books!

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TomProffitt - Nov 21, 2004 10:54 am (#13 of 247)

Bullheaded empiricist
Jiminy Cricket! Is this a needed thread!

I know people are making a lot of assumptions that may not turn out true, because I've been making a nuisance of myself trying to shoot them down.

May favorite assumptions to debate and debunk include:

1) Severus Snape is a good guy because he is in the Order.

2) Anyone that's remotely bad (Fudge, Umbridge, Bagman, etc.) must either be a DE or a pawn of one.

3) Ron and Hermione aren't an obvious relationship.

4) The good guys don't have bad traits and the bad guys don't have good traits.

Of the more important that I think may not be true include:

A) the survival of the Trio (any member),

B) attendance at Hogwarts (particularly making it through seventh year),

C) and "Jo Rowling Shares my World View" (We all see Jo as an upright and moral person that we respect, but I've seen a lot of assumption about what her characters will and will not do that don't necessarily add up).

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El Cronista de Salem - Nov 21, 2004 11:10 am (#14 of 247)

TomProffit, you have done a very good list.

The RON/HERMIONE relationship is a thread of very different views. Some people will think that other assumpt that they will be a pair, and the others, assumpt that they won't never be something like it. It depends of each one.

Other assumptions are about who are the goods, and who are the bads. People assumpt that Snape is good because he is in the Order, but I can't say the same (in spite I am not against that idea, I think it is only an assumption). It is like Mundungus Fletcher: can we trust in him? I say the same like with Snape. I don't say that he is bad, but...

We assumpted, for example, that all the Marauders were in Gryffindor, or that all them borned in the same year.

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KWeldon - Nov 21, 2004 4:40 pm (#15 of 247)

Tom,

Your list is a good one, and it covers a lot of bases. I think it stresses my original point, that there is very little that we can be sure of, at this point. For example, before OotP, I would have naively assumed that there would be negligible, if any, cross-over between Harry's wizarding world and his summer Muggle life, and then lo and behold JKR throws a Dementor into Little Whinging.

Another assumption we've been making is that the showdown in Book 6 between Harry and Voldie will happen at the end of that book, but I'd love to see her surprise us with an early appearance of Voldie himself, not just his DE cronies, for example.

I've seen a lot of assumption about what her characters will and will not do that don't necessarily add up

I'd love to know what you mean by this.

KWeldon

P.S. I thought I was the only one who said "Jiminy Cricket," seriously.

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hells456 - Nov 21, 2004 5:10 pm (#16 of 247)

Also we are assuming that Pettigrew really is bad. It is possible that DD had quiet words with him and had him turn 'traitor' for some reason we don't yet know. Pettigrew is portrayed as weak and going to whichever side was strongest, but we mustn't forget that he was a Gryffindor and everyone in that house has some measure of bravery. However, I do doubt this as it would essentially mean that the Potters were purposely sacrificed to save Harry and the WW.

Most of us are also assuming that the force Harry contains that will ultimately save him is love.

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KWeldon - Nov 21, 2004 9:56 pm (#17 of 247)

Most of us are also assuming that the force Harry contains that will ultimately save him is love.

Yes!! A perfect example of an assumption most of us are making. All things lead to it, but....

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Miréimé - Nov 21, 2004 11:52 pm (#18 of 247)

Tomoé's only twin sister ^_~
One more thing is sure :

The sixth year will end by the election of the Head Boy and the Head Girl and the results will likely be known at the beginning of the seventh book.

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TomProffitt - Nov 22, 2004 7:57 am (#19 of 247)

Bullheaded empiricist
When I say, "I've seen a lot of assumption about what her characters will and will not do that don't necessarily add up," I mean things like:

Harry won't kill Lord Voldemort, because that would be murder. - Without attempting to speak for Jo, I don't think that would be murder myself (not that I'm saying he will kill Lord Voldemort).

A lot of people seem to think Hermione is on the right track with the freeing the House Elves. - I don't know whether or not she is right, or what Jo thinks, seeing how little we really do know about the Elves.

These are kind of things I'm talking about when I refer to Rowling's World View. There is a lot of room for subtle (and perhaps major) disagreement on moral views among our regular posters. I doubt any of us have exactly the same view as Jo Rowling. I don't think we should assume that what we consider a proper moral solution would fit her views. What we might reject she may accept, what we accept she may reject.

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KWeldon - Nov 22, 2004 1:37 pm (#20 of 247)

There is a lot of room for subtle (and perhaps major) disagreement on moral views among our regular posters. I doubt any of us have exactly the same view as Jo Rowling. I don't think we should assume that what we consider a proper moral solution would fit her views. What we might reject she may accept, what we accept she may reject.

I agree, and I think this is particularly true given that there are dissimilarities between her culture and those of many of her readers.

On topic, and since you mentioned the Elves, I think we also can not assume that the different magical beings will take sides at all in the war. Although some may swear their allegience to Voldemort or against him, others may not be able to politically commit to one side or the other. For example, the elves may come to resent wizards as a whole for their enslavement, and therefore be unable to choose one side or the other. The goblins would make money from either side, and therefore would also be unwilling to burn bridges by supporting Voldie or Dumbledore/good guys.

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Hollywand - Nov 22, 2004 2:16 pm (#21 of 247)

Gryffindor
On the ship topic, perhaps the Hermione/Ron relationship is an assumption as well. It seems to me to be so much leading in that direction that it's a red herring.

To me, some get way too attached to predicting the logic of magic, which is a bit of an oxymoron. One person emphatically stating that a dragon can't be milked is very funny!

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hells456 - Nov 22, 2004 5:13 pm (#22 of 247)

I would agree on the Hermione/Ron ship, Hollywand. There have been a lot of clues about them, particularly in GoF. A lot of people seem to assume they will end up together, even if they do support a different pairing.

KWeldon, very good idea, I had automatically thought that the majority of magic creatures will take one side or another, whereas many could remain neutral.

You're right about the 'logic of magic' Hollywand. Nobody can be completely clear cut about anything, especially in JKR's world. That's why I couldn't resist replying about dragons ;-)

We are also making a lot of assumptions about which objects/themes will be returning, eg. time travel, the pensieve, the veil in the DoM and many more I can't think of right now. I don't know about anyone else, but I assume that any object or spell mentioned more than once will appear again, eg. cheering charms, love spells, omnioculars, etc.

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Aud Duck - Nov 22, 2004 8:24 pm (#23 of 247)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I think we're all assuming that the DoM was shown to us for a reason, whereas it might have just served as a convenient place to have the fight, the prophecy being there and all.

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KWeldon - Nov 22, 2004 8:47 pm (#24 of 247)

I think we're all assuming that the DoM was shown to us for a reason, whereas it might have just served as a convenient place to have the fight, the prophecy being there and all.

And, as an extension of that, we are assuming that we will find out what the different rooms are for in the DoM. I remember reading OotP and thinking, "Boy, I can't wait to find out what THAT's all about."

May never happen. There's so much of Harry's world that we find entertaining, and there's just not enough time to fill that void.

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Steve Newton - Nov 23, 2004 4:22 pm (#25 of 247)

Librarian
Do we have any evidence that the voice Harry hears is his mother's? Is this just an assumption? Is the green color that he remembers the AK curse? There are many other spells that do green. I think that I have assumed this.

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The giant squid - Nov 24, 2004 7:16 am (#26 of 247)

You're right on both counts, Steve, that those are assumptions. Actually, the voice being Lily is Harry's assumption, not ours, I think. He hears a woman's voice and figures it must be his mother. Until we know the details of that night, we'll have to assume along with Harry.

--Mike

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KWeldon - Nov 24, 2004 8:19 am (#27 of 247)

He hears a woman's voice and figures it must be his mother. Until we know the details of that night, we'll have to assume along with Harry.

Yes, you are right about this assumption. How exciting would it be if the woman's voice were....Petunia? Or Harry's grandmother? Improbable, but still cool to be totally shocked that it's not Lily.

One silly question, and I apologize for not knowing the books as well as all of you. Did Voldemort actually confess to killing James? Are we assuming that it was him?

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wwtMask - Nov 24, 2004 9:51 am (#28 of 247)

Well, the voice Harry hears does mention him by name and his father's voice mentions him as well. At any rate, I think he could have verified that the voices were his parents' voices when he saw their ghosts during his fight with Voldemort in the graveyard.

Kweldon, Voldemort mentioned a couple times that he did kill James, though he didn't say it outright. In the graveyard he mentioned how James faced him in order to give Lily and Harry time to escape. In PS, Voldemort lied about James and Lily begging for their lives and, when Harry called him on that, admitted that James had faced him like a man. I don't think anyone but Harry and Dumbledore have faced Voldemort "like a man" and lived to tell the tale. Besides that, we have Voldemort's own wand to prove, at the least, that it was his wand that cast the curses that killed Lily and James. This doesn't necessarily prove he did it, but in combination with his earlier assertions and Harry's own memories of the event (he recognizes Voldemort's voice), I think it's fair to say that he did, indeed, kill James and Lily.

I am assuming the following:
Lupin and Wormtail will die in the second war.
We'll see Sirius again
Aunt Petunia is the one that turns out to have magical powers late in life
Felix Felicis is the name of a person
Ron, Harry, and Ginny will be on the Gryffendor quidditch team
Harry will get into the classes needed to become an Auror
Dumbledore will die
None of the trio will die
Harry will finally start asking about his family



previous messages)
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Veritaserum - Nov 24, 2004 3:15 pm (#29 of 247)

Go Jays!
I agree with Tom Proffit said about assuming that Jo shares each of our worldview, and to add to that, I think it also goes with philosophical/theological ideas too. I'm guilty of that, I admit. What I mean is, how we view good and evil, and their roles in all this, people seem to have many views on how that will end up, but really none of us knows for sure.

The assumption that Voldemort killed James is a big one. For awhile I've been wondering if it really was him, or if it was some flunky (ie Wormtail) using Voldemort's wand.

I agree that we all think Harry will start majoring (?) in Aurorship. Perhaps that's because we'd all hate to see Harry fail at something really important like that.

It's going to be really interesting to see how many of these assumptions Jo shoots down in the next two books.

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Robert Dierken - Nov 24, 2004 8:02 pm (#30 of 247)

Another assumption is that the man's voice that Harry hears is James. Harry is assuming this, but we don't really know for sure.

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TomProffitt - Nov 24, 2004 9:44 pm (#31 of 247)

Bullheaded empiricist
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Veritaserum. Keep it in mind as you read posts and will notice how often people make the mistake of assuming Jo shares their beliefs. I think for the vast majority of us there is a huge amount of common ground (else the books would not be popular), but each of us (myself included no doubt) occasionally slip up and guess wrong.

(BTW I miss the Caps, myself, but they've been gone a lot longer than the Avs.)

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MickeyCee3948 - Nov 25, 2004 8:29 pm (#32 of 247)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Veritaserum-I have also wondered if Wormtail was not the one at Godric's Hollow that night. He could have been the one that got James to open the door that night. I assume that it was he who picked up Voldemort's wand and carried if with him until the cemetary in GoF.

Mikie

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Tomoé - Nov 26, 2004 1:49 am (#33 of 247)

Back in business
We assume Theodore Nott is a Slytherin, even Lexicon Steve do so, while there's no proof for that, only hints.

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Solitaire - Nov 26, 2004 9:58 am (#34 of 247)

Robert Dierken: Another assumption is that the man's voice that Harry hears is James. Harry is assuming this, but we don't really know for sure.

Remus's reaction when Harry mentioned he'd heard his dad's voice (PoA, p. 241, US ed.) seems to have been the catalyst for the suspicion that it was possibly not James's voice at all that Harry heard. The assumption is that he knows it was not James's voice, because it was his own. But wouldn't Harry have recognized the voice as Remus's, if that were the case? Would it have changed that much? He recognized Remus's voice in the dark more than a year after he'd seen him last, when he came with the advance guard to fetch Harry at Privet Drive. Just wondering ...

I've seen the following assumptions treated by many as though they are facts (forgive me if I'm wrong and they really are facts):
1. Snape was in love with Lily.
2. Petunia is a "failed witch" who was expelled from Hogwarts for some reason.
3. Petunia is hiding Lily's wand, Dumbledore's letter, and other magical "artifacts" under the squeaky stair.
4. Harry is related to Godric Gryffindor.


I suppose all of them may be true ... but maybe not.

Solitaire

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Veritaserum - Nov 26, 2004 2:32 pm (#35 of 247)

Go Jays!
I wasn't really aware of numbers 2 and 4 as accepted assumptions, and thought number 1 was really more of a theory. However, number four is a big one.



Solitaire - Nov 26, 2004 8:13 pm (#36 of 247)[/b]
Veritaserum, I've seen (and heard) them discussed by some folks in a way that seems to suggest they are accepted as established fact--particularly 1 & 2. I'll admit that I find 4 an intriguing possibility.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 26, 2004 8:38 pm (#37 of 247)

An assumption that I have heard advanced. Is the idea that Severus Snape was in some way abused by his father in his youth. I find the idea quite interesting and I am curious about its origins.

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kabloink! - Nov 26, 2004 9:20 pm (#38 of 247)

Optician's Assistant
I'm pretty sure that in one of her most recent updates on her website that Aunt Petunia is not a squib, JKR states that Petunia is a muggle. This kind of throws number 4 out the window, unless, of course there is a spell that will allow a failed witch to become a muggle?

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Solitaire - Nov 26, 2004 10:17 pm (#39 of 247)

kabloink, JKR did say that Pet was a Muggle. But the way she worded her answer made it seem like there was something more to the story: No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but—[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. (I lifted that quote from a post by Ann on the Good Old Aunt Petunia thread.)

Solitaire

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TomProffitt - Nov 27, 2004 8:19 am (#40 of 247)

Bullheaded empiricist
I have to agree, Nathan. The pensieve scene in OotP only shows one childhood scene where Snape's parents are fighting.

My folks had more than a few fights that I saw, they yelled at me a number of times, but I would never say I was abused in childhood.

That's a huge assumption about Snape's childhood from very little evidence.

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wolfgrl - Nov 29, 2004 2:29 pm (#41 of 247)

An assumption I make is that the main characters that I have grown to love will survive the series. Because I just don't want anyone to die

I think another assumption many make is that the remaining books will be "darker" for lack of a better term. I tend to agree as it will be hard not to with the WW at war, but it is an assumption.

I used to think that all students finished wizarding school but the twins proved me wrong. I still assume all of the trio will finish but again it is an assumption.

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Mrs Brisbee - Nov 29, 2004 2:56 pm (#42 of 247)

I don't know if this has been mentioned (I did read the thread, but I've got short term memory loss or something), but we all seem to think that the life debt Pettigrew owes Harry is going to turn out to be important.

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KWeldon - Nov 29, 2004 2:59 pm (#43 of 247)

Wolfgrl,

I think it's a fair assumption to make that the final books will be dark, given the war.

Since we no longer have the twins for comic relief during the terms at Hogwarts, it will be interesting to see where the source of comic relief will come from. My bet is at least part of it will be interactions with Harry, Ron, and any girls they may be interested in.

And, yes, I can't think of any character that we can assume will live. One assumption people make is that if any of the trio will die, it will be only one of them. There is nothing that says two or more could die, although that would take it to a level not necessarily aimed at adolescents. Plus, riots would ensue.

KWeldon

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kabloink! - Nov 29, 2004 3:01 pm (#44 of 247)

Optician's Assistant
Well, there is textual evidence behind that, I would think. At the end of PoA, DD says somethign about it to Harry. THis was stated very plainly, and I doubt it would be a red herring. I'm in class, so I don't have the exact quote, though.

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KWeldon - Nov 29, 2004 3:01 pm (#45 of 247)

we all seem to think that the life debt Pettigrew owes Harry is going to turn out to be important.

Mrs. Brisbee,

That's an excellent example of an assumption, flamed by the fact that Pettigrew is a Gryffindor and needs to show that quality at some point, you'd think. Maybe it's just a red herring.

KWeldon

Edit: Kabloink and I cross-posted. I still think plainly stating it doesn't mean we can assume it will become important. Probably, but we still can't be sure.

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Veritaserum - Nov 29, 2004 3:14 pm (#46 of 247)

Go Jays!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but another assumption seems to be that Draco will end up turning to the good side, whether before or after the big climax.

Or how about Crookshanks? We all think he will show up again.

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KWeldon - Nov 29, 2004 3:17 pm (#47 of 247)

another assumption seems to be that Draco will end up turning to the good side, whether before or after the big climax

I've actually never heard that and would never assume it.

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Elanor - Nov 29, 2004 3:59 pm (#48 of 247)

TomProffitt : I have to agree, Nathan. The pensieve scene in OotP only shows one childhood scene where Snape's parents are fighting. My folks had more than a few fights that I saw, they yelled at me a number of times, but I would never say I was abused in childhood. That's a huge assumption about Snape's childhood from very little evidence.

I agree with you that "abused" is maybe too strong as far as we know. But I think we may assume that Snape suffered from his childhood and that, even if he was not abused, what he saw then hurt him and left some "scars" in him. As Jo started then to reveal some things about his chilhood, another assumption we can make is that we will learn more about his family in the next books.

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T Brightwater - Nov 30, 2004 8:12 am (#49 of 247)

Tom, great point about assuming that JKR shares each of our individual views of the world, morality, etc.

I think we also tend to assume that all the loose ends will be taken care of - that someone will find a cure for lycanthropy, Winky will find a 12-step program, Umbridge will be suitably punished and Harry will learn all about his parents. Just because we're intrigued by something doesn't mean it's important to the story.

Jo started with Harry and built the world around him; the complete biographies of the Founders of Hogwarts may not be relevant.

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kabloink! - Nov 30, 2004 9:38 am (#50 of 247)

Optician's Assistant
Well, didn't Jo state at some point that while Winky would always have a weakness for Butterbeer, she would improve?

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Assumptions We've Been Making about Rest of Series (Post 51 to 100)

Post  Elanor on Sat May 21, 2011 11:37 am

Solitaire - Nov 30, 2004 6:21 pm (#51 of 247)
Did she say that, or did she say Winky will never completely recover? If the latter, this could refer to her addiction, or it could also refer to her emotional issues over Barty Crouch ... couldn't it?

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TomProffitt - Nov 30, 2004 6:29 pm (#52 of 247)

Bullheaded empiricist
I thought the context was pretty clear about her drinking problem, Solitaire, but I'd have to look at the exact quote to be certain.

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vball man - Dec 1, 2004 4:25 pm (#53 of 247)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
What a neat thread.
Many of the things that are listed here are not assumptions. They're theories or predictions, or hopes.
At this point it seems that almost every conceivable theory has been dreamed up. An assumption is something that we've not only all believed, but we've never even considered may not be true.

I relate very strongly to the one about assuming that JKR shares my world view.
For me, that's more of a "hope" than an "assumption."

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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Dec 1, 2004 5:07 pm (#54 of 247)

No day but Today
Is it ok to post assumptions we get from the movies? I keep hearing from directors and things that alot of the third movie foreshadows things in future books. In the movie, when Lupin tells Harry about his parents, he goes on much more about Lily then he does about James, his best friend. I have assumed, and this is just my assumption, no support or back up, that Lupin had feelings for Lily. They were prefects together right? And he wasn't a jerk like Sirius and James...............

Ok, feel free to completely ignore this post. I know we must not trust the movies. ::hobbles to St. Mungo's::

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TomProffitt - Dec 1, 2004 6:09 pm (#55 of 247)

Bullheaded empiricist
I guess when I commented on Jo's world view as an assumption I was thinking of many of the things I've seen in other posters. I was trying to generalize what I've seen in many people over many different topics.

Another good generalization relates to favorite characters or 'ships. There are a lot of folks with favorite characters (or 'ships) that have blinded themselves to objective evidence.

For example, Ginny has a talent for the bald-faced lie. Most of us assume that Ginny is working for the good out of good intentions. However it could be that Ginny's ethically challenged outlook on truthing to her Mum may indicate bad things. It could be that some traces of Diary-Tom remain lodged within her psyche.

I don't really expect Ginny to turn coat or anything, but there is a strong desire in many on the forum to ignore evidence of potential or actual flaws and faults within favorite characters. (Other examples include the relative level of goodness within Severus Snape and the R/H v. H/H 'ships.)

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Hollywand - Dec 1, 2004 6:52 pm (#56 of 247)

Gryffindor
You're a brave man, Tom. I hope you have your silver shield aloft.

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Solitaire - Dec 2, 2004 2:17 am (#57 of 247)

Matilda, I have wondered about that scene between Harry and Remus, as well. Remus does seem to have cared deeply for Lily. Was it, perhaps, as more than just a friend? That scene certainly makes it seem like that might have been the case ... and it is a movie scene, not a book scene, correct? (I sometimes get confused, especially at this hour of the morning ...)

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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Dec 2, 2004 1:12 pm (#58 of 247)

No day but Today
Yes, Solitare. It is most definately a movie only scene. That bridge they were on does not even exist in the books. It seems to be common knowledge that Alfonso Cuaron likes to have romance and sexual ideas in his movies, which is why he put in things like the H/R hand holding. Knowing that, and seeing the way Remus spoke of Lilly, combind with what we know about teen Lupin from OOP, is what led me to think it was some sort of foreshadowing.

Of course, even if it is true, it really doesn't have much relevance to the plot, so it shouldn't matter.

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Veritaserum - Dec 2, 2004 3:21 pm (#59 of 247)

Go Jays!
Tom, that was a good point about how people get blinded to characters' true nature based on certain passages, etc. Harry himself does that with his father. And Jo did say that one time she was amazed at everyone that thinks Sirius is a stud (though I must confess I belong to that camp), when he's really not as together as we assume (well, something to that effect, right?)

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T Brightwater - Dec 3, 2004 7:46 am (#60 of 247)

Veritaserum, I think you're conflating two bits from JKR's website. If you go to the trophy (fan site) room and click on _Immeritus_, I think you'll find that she was rather gratified that Sirius has a fan club. (I doubt she would have given an award to a Draco Malfoy fan site.) In the FAQ section, under the question "Do you like Sirius Black?" she says that yes she does, but he's not perfect.

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KWeldon - Dec 3, 2004 9:25 am (#61 of 247)

I'm almost certain that she also said she was once asked by a fan, "Sirius Black is sexy, isn't he?," and that Jo answered yes.

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Ann - Dec 3, 2004 10:37 am (#62 of 247)

Yes, I think it is the fact that so many people like Snape that seems to bother her, not Sirius. But whether that is because she thinks Snape is really despicable at heart, or whether it is because she wants us to think that is not yet clear.

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Veritaserum - Dec 3, 2004 5:07 pm (#63 of 247)

Go Jays!
She loves to keep us guessing about Snape, doesn't she?

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dizzy lizzy - Dec 3, 2004 11:51 pm (#64 of 247)

There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
She's (Jo) got us all wrapped around her little finger. I keep thinking that we've overlooked something nice and simple (and its there all along). But those sleepless nights aren't going to go away soon.

I think the biggest assumption we've been making is that we are going to get answers. Somehow deep in my heart I'm sure there are going to be no answers provided for some parts of the story.

Lizzy

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Solitaire - Dec 4, 2004 4:25 am (#65 of 247)

I agree, dizzy. Just as in life, there are some things that may always remain a mystery, so it may finally wind up being with the Potterverse. They may be explained, but there are always going to be those among us who "want more"!

Solitaire

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KWeldon - Dec 4, 2004 9:48 am (#66 of 247)

I realized that one assumption that I've been making is that at least one of the Weasleys is going to die. JKR has said that there will be more deaths, and I think that since the Weasley family is so big, that surely it will be one of them. Statistically, it seems probable, but maybe they will all make it through...

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Dec 4, 2004 9:55 pm (#67 of 247)

How bout' Dumbledore, or his 12 uses of dragons blood, helping Flemel create the Sorcerer's Stone.

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schoff - Dec 5, 2004 3:10 am (#68 of 247)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Many of the things that are listed here are not assumptions. They're theories or predictions, or hopes.

Which confuses me. This thread reads a lot like the "Predictions" thread.

Two assumptions that I think are pretty universal (and entirely accurate) are that Snape and Neville will somehow play a large part in the final battle between Harry and Voldemort.

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Veritaserum - Dec 5, 2004 10:46 am (#69 of 247)

Go Jays!
That's a good point, especially with the newfound character in Neville.

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Solitaire - Dec 5, 2004 9:06 pm (#70 of 247)

I think a lot of us are assuming (or fearing) that Remus is going to die or be seriously injured by Peter and his silver hand. At least, I do not think I am alone here. **looking around to see who else is assuming/fearing this one**

Solitaire

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kabloink! - Dec 5, 2004 9:37 pm (#71 of 247)

Optician's Assistant
I haven't thought so much that Remus is going to die, but I have been assuming that one of the three is going to die, most likely ROn. I don't want to think this, but it is something that I've come to assume.

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Romulus - Dec 6, 2004 7:34 am (#72 of 247)

One huge assumption that everyone makes is that the stories will continue to unfold from Harry's point of view. Only two chapters - the first ones in PS and GOF - tell us about things that happen from a "narrator" point of view. In all the other chapters, although the first person is not used, we clearly only see/hear/learn what Harry does (even in the dream scenes, he is not technically there but we see it because he does). A departure from this could bring so much more info - imagine a chapter recounting a meeting between Voldemort and Snape?

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T Brightwater - Dec 6, 2004 12:14 pm (#73 of 247)

One assumption I've spotted fairly often is that "all or most of the ethically challenged characters" (Tom Proffitt's wording) are Death Eaters.

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scoop2172000 - Dec 6, 2004 2:23 pm (#74 of 247)

Good point, T Brightwater. Umbridge is "ethically challenged" but she was no Death Eater. Some can argue that Percy is, at times, ethically challenged himself, putting his ambition ahead of everything else, including family loyalty and friendship. But he's no Death Eater either.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 6, 2004 6:29 pm (#75 of 247)

I have a question could the idea regarding the falling out between Albus and Aberforth be classified as an assumption?

Cheers, Nathan

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Steve Newton - Dec 6, 2004 7:20 pm (#76 of 247)

Librarian
I don't recall reading that Aberforth and Albus don't get along.

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librarian314 - Dec 6, 2004 8:00 pm (#77 of 247)

Hey all!

Great new thread!

Throughout HP fandom an assumption that I have seen and made myself is that Dumbledore won't survive the series. I haven't gone through the books looking for clues, so it's more of a gut feeling based on literary precedent. In three major stories involving elderly mentors and their young apprentices (Star Wars, King Arthur, and Lord of the Rings) the elderly mentor is taken out of the story, with a profound effect on his young charge. Killing Dumbledore would certainly have a major impact on Harry and push the story along. I certainly hope he survives but who knows.

*michelle the librarian**

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kabloink! - Dec 7, 2004 4:18 am (#78 of 247)

Optician's Assistant
I have hd the same assumption myself, librarian314. Like you said, it is very much a gut feeling, but I think the way it is thrown in every now and then how tired DD looks kind of lends to that idea.

I just realized another assumption I've been making about the series, along with quite a few other people-that we're even going to find out who Sirius left all his belongings to.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 7, 2004 11:12 am (#79 of 247)

Steve, the idea I believe can be found both in the Aberforth thread and the eavesdropper thread.

Cheers, Nathan

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Veritaserum - Dec 7, 2004 3:28 pm (#80 of 247)

Go Jays!
I agree that it seems right Dumbledore should die. Not pleasant, mind you, but right in a literary sense. It would seem a bit of a cop out if everyone was to survive, especially Dumbledore. At some point Harry has to stop holding on to DD's apron strings and do things for himself. Which he did do to some extent in OOP. Don't get me wrong, I love the comfort DD offers as much as the next guy, but in reality, DD is not always going to be there.

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TomProffitt - Dec 8, 2004 7:01 pm (#81 of 247)

Bullheaded empiricist
I've noticed that some of us look for hidden subtleties from Jo, while others look for hidden complexities.

Which is the correct assumption about Jo's writing style?

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vball man - Dec 8, 2004 7:50 pm (#82 of 247)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Good post. It still seems to me like we are not talking about assumptions on this thread, for the most part.

Hmmm...what do you mean by subtlety? It seems like, in a sense, hidden subtleties would make the plot more complicated.

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Ann - Dec 8, 2004 8:42 pm (#83 of 247)

I think an assumption that a lot of us are making is that any pattern we find in the series is (a) intentional and (b) once we recognize it, it will solve everything. For example, in PS/SS, the various tasks that are necessary to get to the stone, the chess game, and the potions riddle have all been interpreted as far-reaching metaphors. Now I'm not saying none of them are (I'm a fan of the chess game theory), but surely she wouldn't have embedded hints in all those different things. And that's just one book! Likewise all the alchemy patterns and literary parallels. Some may be true, but can they all be? It seems unlikely.

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Solitaire - Dec 8, 2004 10:11 pm (#84 of 247)

LOL Ann ... perhaps that is why the books are taking so long to finish!

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TomProffitt - Dec 9, 2004 5:41 am (#85 of 247)

Bullheaded empiricist
My view on subtlety and complication is similar to Ann's.

By subtlety I mean things like: Aberforth is the Barman, Jo always having a suspect more visible than the true antagonist of the book, the difference between Fred & George, the nature of Ron & Hermione's relationship.

By complexity I mean such theories as meaning in socks, color, Ron & Harry and their faux prophecies, the chess games, the PS/SS trials, the prophecy paragraphs.

There is a great deal of subtlety in Jo's writing and depth of character. Her plots appear complex, but are actually fairly simple. Many people are looking for the subtle complexities that will reveal either the ending or the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything.

We all know the answer is 42.

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T Brightwater - Dec 9, 2004 8:56 am (#86 of 247)

"We all know the answer is 42."

...and the Hogwarts House Elves know where their towels are.

(pictures Hagrid bringing home a Ravenous Bugblatter Beast...)

Back to topic - Madeleine L'Engle and Dorothy L. Sayers have both written about their books knowing more than they do. Sayers mentioned a symbolic connection in one of her books that she didn't realize was there until a reader pointed it out, but which was actually relevant to the story. I think one could find levels of symbolism in HP that Jo isn't necessarily writing consciously.

Tolkien made the distinction between allegory and applicability. Allegory is deliberate on the part of the author; applicability is the freedom of the reader to connect the work with other books, history, personal experience, etc.

I think that good writers accept the fact that their books have more in them than they consciously and deliberately put there.

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KWeldon - Dec 9, 2004 9:51 am (#87 of 247)

We all know the answer is 42.

I'm sorry. What does this mean?

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Eponine - Dec 9, 2004 10:12 am (#88 of 247)

KWeldon, it's a reference to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in which it is determined that the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42.

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Saralinda Again - Dec 9, 2004 10:22 am (#89 of 247)

My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
... And all good hitchhikers know where their towels are, because -- in a leap of logic that I would not be surprised to find that JKR appreciates -- that towel can save you from the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal. [You put the towel over your head. The Beast, which is as dim as it is ravenous, presumes that if you can't see it, it can't see you, and shuffles off to find something else to nosh on.]

:: Having instant image of Snape, Lupin, and the rest of the OotP gang standing with their wands at the ready, and with fluffy bath towels over their faces so the Dark Lord can't find them ::

Saralinda/Kayte

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 9, 2004 11:19 am (#90 of 247)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I like to think that JKR is sitting back reading all of our posts and thinking "Well now how can I throw a kink in that theory?"

Mikie

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Veritaserum - Dec 9, 2004 3:15 pm (#91 of 247)

Go Jays!
42. Right on.

What was I going to say? Ah, yes. I definitely agree with how many things in books turn out to symbolic or connected to something else unintentionally. That's happened on a small scale in my stories, where I'll just put in a word because it says what I want to say, but then my friend will point out why it was a good choice. I tend to suspect that this happens in Jo's books a lot. It is quite cool, though.

Is it an assumption that there will be some kind of epilogue chapter at the end of the book that will sum up everyone's future after VWII? I wouldn't put it past JKR to leave it up to us...

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hells456 - Dec 9, 2004 4:50 pm (#92 of 247)

"The final chapter of the seventh book is written. That's for my own satisfaction, so that I know where I'm going as I write the other books. And that last chapter deals with what happens to the survivors afterward. Because there will be deaths." (JKR chat transcript American library association july 1999)

I don't think I'd cope if we were left hanging.

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Eponine - Dec 9, 2004 5:15 pm (#93 of 247)

The arguments regarding ships would go on FOREVER if she left us hanging. I don't think she will.

I couldn't cope either.

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Paulus Maximus - Dec 9, 2004 5:35 pm (#94 of 247)

Except for one thing...

When I finished high school, I was not involved in a relationship. My parents had already finished high school before they met.

I think that it is highly unlikely that there will be lasting relationships before they finish Hogwarts.

Of course, JKR might mention 'ships in the epilogue...

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Hollywand - Dec 9, 2004 5:54 pm (#95 of 247)

Gryffindor
Regarding the alchemy associations: scoff if you must, but the fascinating thing about the alchemical clues is that many of them are in the existing story, before Elanor and I began our initial conversation on the iconography.

It occurred to me one day that the Wormtail hand might not be silver at all, but quicksilver. From this, we have been researching backward and have found many details (eg, the Philosopher's Stone is "blood red") I had previously not recognized.

Another example: looking for a specific reference to Mercury as a predictor of the future---Archangel found that one; a very obscure clue to be reverse searching for and find to be just a random coincidence.

So much of the underlying framework: Albedo, Rubio, Nigredo---those names are deeply woven into the books! To my mind, the alchemical references are way beyond the "Dumbledore is the Giant Squid" quantum leaps of logic.

Of couse, not every remark on the Alchemy thread will bear fruit in the forthcoming books, but to my mind it has uncovered a unique iconography not previously seen in the series, and that's an achievement!

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TomProffitt - Dec 10, 2004 6:13 am (#96 of 247)

Bullheaded empiricist
Hollywand, I don't really scoff at Alchemy theories and such, as I find them too vague to reliably predict anything.

Give me some specific predictions based upon alchemy (or whatever theory) that can be indisputably verified or refuted when HBP comes out and I will accept that you have something.

I think some of the more complex theories do have something going for them, I just don't have enough confidence in any of them to choose one and say, "Yes, I agree, this must be true."

That is why I rate these type of theories as assumptions about the nature of Jo's writing. There is an assumption that something deep and complex is hidden with in the series. (Whatever that something may be)

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Ann - Dec 10, 2004 9:24 am (#97 of 247)

Hollywand: "So much of the underlying framework: Albedo, Rubio, Nigredo---those names are deeply woven into the books!"

Perhaps, but basically those are just colors (white, red, black), so it might be color symbolism instead.

But I wasn't scoffing at the alchemy theories either. Clearly alchemy is at the root of many aspects of western conceptions of magic, so there is undoubtedly a good deal of alchemy in the books. My point is simply that all of these different theories can't be true. I would be willing to bet that JKR is not intentionally following an alchemical pattern and a pattern of color symbolism and a fairly tale pattern and a pattern based on Arthurian legend and and a chess game pattern and Lord of the Rings and some complex numerological formula involving 12 and some compulsion to reveal certain things in certain chapters in each book and an analogy to British history during the two World Wars and Shakespeare's plays, etc. etc.

I also agree with Veritaserum that connections between things get into one's writing without one planning them. JKR knows about all this stuff--and a lot of it is great because it touches on universals. And universals are, well, universal. So things hook up. (I've just started writing fiction for fun and it's truly an amazing the way things seems to play out in unexpected ways and wonderful unintended connections form under one's fingers on the keyboard. I highly recommend that everyone try it. It's the closest thing to magic I've ever experienced.)

Sorry to ramble on.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 10, 2004 4:10 pm (#98 of 247)

Ann, those are some excellent points, often connections are woven into stories as a background. These elements often enhance the story by weaving and altering ancient stylistic and thematic elements J.K. Rowling encourages her readers to think and to analyze in much the same way as professors encourage their students broaden their minds. through analysis and experience. As Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr., once said: A man's mind once stretched by an idea never regains its original proportions. I have long assumed that the books have a twofold purpose: First, to encourage young people to read. Second, I believe that the book serve as a way for her to articulate her philosophy. Assumptions however vague they may be, while, not allowing for accuracy in predictions, do allow the readers to stretch their minds and to engage discussion even the ideas raised in the Lupin is really James Potter thread amd the Dumbledore is the Giant Squid thread provide fodder with which to stimulate the mind.

On another note, one of the most interesting assumptions I have heard regards Salazaar Slytherin, is that he was much like his descendant Tom Riddle.

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Hollywand - Dec 10, 2004 7:01 pm (#99 of 247)

Gryffindor
Hi Tom, we have made some predictions based on the alchemical iconography, to name a few:

Snape's patronus or animagus will take on a black bird figure, as the Black Crow symbol of alchemy. He could actually be a crow or an Augury, the Irish phoenix. The black phoenix is a counterpart to the cinnabar bird, the red phoenix---Fawkes is unmistakeably described as a red and gold phoenix.

We will perhaps head for the water, as Hermione's patronus is a water animal.

Cho's patronus in OOP is the white swan; in alchemy, the white swan symbolizes illusory enlightenment and fleeting passion.

Hermione's patronus is a alliteration on Harry's last name, this could signify them as a duality pair, a janus figure, which is a widely used symbol in alchemy.

The dragons mentioned in fantastic beasts, each unique, mention alchemical metal symbols: silver, copper, bronze, gold, lead. Perhaps the final books will involve an encounter in the dragon reserve.

We will be dancing in the effluvia if we are close.

Ann, to your point, our thread is inclusive of a lot of different perspectives, as Nathan mentioned, to stretch the interpretations of the text. I don't think any of us think all of the interpretations are pondered and executed by Rowling. I have a few favorites, I tend toward "alchemical process as metaphor for spritual growth" and very simple numbers clues, for example, Hagrid seems to be the thirteenth birthday listed this year, and his birthdate 12/06/04, totals thirteen again. This seems ominious for Hagrid, and as Rubeo, he may have to die for Harry to progress as Sirius/black/nigredo.

Apologies for the extended post.

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Ladybug220 - Dec 10, 2004 7:16 pm (#100 of 247)

...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
I thought that JKR said that she liked otters and I assumed that is why she gave Hermione one as her patronus.

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Assumptions We've Been Making about Rest of Series (Post 101 to 150)

Post  Elanor on Sat May 21, 2011 11:40 am

Hollywand - Dec 10, 2004 7:55 pm (#101 of 247)
Gryffindor
I'm sure that Jo was being genuine when she made the remark that she liked otters.

But consider that otters are part of the (I think it's called Mustaladae Mammal family, which includes weasels). The Weasleys live at Ottery St Catchpole. As I mentioned earlier, otter is an alliteration of Potter. She's weaving the weasels, otters and potters together intentionally.

When asked leading questions, she can't say something on the order of, "Yes, I made Hermione's patronus an otter because I'm planning on having the future battle involve a water snake, and we need a figure to vanquish the snake in the water environment. " ;-) Just speculative,

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kabloink! - Dec 13, 2004 10:58 am (#102 of 247)

Optician's Assistant
Just a quick question? Doesn't otter RHYME with Potter, its not alliterated (?) with it. Alliteration is where words all start with the same letter. Sorry for being nitpicky(I'm an ENglish minor)-your theory is good, though. I could be mixing up my terms.

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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 11:52 am (#103 of 247)

Gryffindor
As I understand it, alliteration is repetition of sound, not specifically at the beginning. So, for example, Severus Snape and Severs the Snake or Serves the Snake.

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Steve Newton - Dec 13, 2004 12:00 pm (#104 of 247)

Librarian
Isn't Fleur Delacoeur alliterative? I thought that it was the repetition of consonant sounds. Assonance the repetition of vowel sounds. This is from many years ago in high school so could be incorrect. Of course there are many names in the series where the first and last names start with the same letter. I counted 40 at one point.

I think that I have misspelled Fleur's name.

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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 12:46 pm (#105 of 247)

Gryffindor
Hi Steve! Where's our dear friend Elanor when we need her? I also read Fluer's name as Delacoeur, thinking it was alliteration for "Flower of the Heart". It's actually "Flower of the Court" oh, gosh, I may get this exact spelling wrong, so I will look it up.

Delacour

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Elanor - Dec 13, 2004 1:23 pm (#106 of 247)

LOl Hollywand! I'm here, just trying to catch up with the threads I haven't had the time to read yet!

You're right, her name is Fleur Delacour and there is no alliteration, since the final sound in Fleur is [er], as at the end of "river" and Delacour finishes with the sound [ur], as in "poor" (but with a shorter [u]). Does it help?

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Eponine - Dec 13, 2004 1:40 pm (#107 of 247)

From Dictionary.com

alliteration - The repetition of the same sounds or of the same kinds of sounds at the beginning of words or in stressed syllables, as in “on scrolls of silver snowy sentences” (Hart Crane). Modern alliteration is predominantly consonantal; certain literary traditions, such as Old English verse, also alliterate using vowel sounds.

assonance - 1. Resemblance of sound, especially of the vowel sounds in words, as in: “that dolphin-torn, that gong-tormented sea” (William Butler Yeats). 2. The repetition of identical or similar vowel sounds, especially in stressed syllables, with changes in the intervening consonants, as in the phrase tilting at windmills. 3. Rough similarity; approximate agreement.

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Hollywand - Dec 13, 2004 1:42 pm (#108 of 247)

Gryffindor
Thanks for your help Elanor! ;[)

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kabloink! - Dec 13, 2004 2:28 pm (#109 of 247)

Optician's Assistant
Sorry Hollywand, I do think your argument has backing and is very interesting-and the terminology does not change that-I'm just anal about things like that.

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Solitaire - Dec 13, 2004 11:08 pm (#110 of 247)

Ottery, otter, Potter ... Steve seems to have it right. In my books, assonance is explained as follows: likeness of sound; rough similarity of sound; partial rhyme in which the stressed vowel sounds are alike and the consonant sounds are not necessarily alike. The "Severus Snape and Severs the Snake or Serves the Snake" items certainly seem to be assonance.

Solitaire

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Ann - Dec 15, 2004 10:01 am (#111 of 247)

Solitaire, do you mean alliteration? All those s's are consonants.

Elanor, I think for most English speakers Fleur and Delacour rhyme (which is assonance, though assonance is not always rhyme). French vowel sounds are almost as hard for us as Dutch! Thanks for the correction.

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João Paulo Costa - Dec 15, 2004 1:20 pm (#112 of 247)

One assumption that I made and that I must always fight is that, currently, Snape's work for the Order is one of spying. Since he had been shown by Dumbledore as Spying agains Voldedemort, it is not possible that he simply resumed the same work.

But I keep falling in the same assunption. For if Snape is not spying for the Order, what is his work?

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Elanor - Dec 15, 2004 4:17 pm (#113 of 247)

You're welcome Ann! BTW, it is difficult for the French kids to learn the difference between some phonemes too, even "eu" can be pronounced in too different ways! the interesting thing about Fleur's name is that it has some "royal" references (Flower of the Court): and do you know what the flower of the French court was? A lily!

Another assumption that I make is that the fact that so many characters have flowers'names has nothing to do with chance and that we will hear more about those "flowers" in the next books.

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Aud Duck - Dec 15, 2004 10:32 pm (#114 of 247)

"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
That brings up another assumption, Elanor. I think we've been assuming that nearly every name has another meaning. That has proved true several times, but it doesn't mean that if we haven't found the hidden meaning, we are not looking hard enough. There might truly not be one.

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Eponine - Dec 15, 2004 10:40 pm (#115 of 247)

Oh, Aud Duck, that is an assumption that bugs me. Another assumption that bugs me is that there is subtext in every single word in the series. We try to interpret everything into symbolism or metaphors or foreshadowing. Sometimes a Mark Evans is just a neighborhood kid.

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Ann - Dec 15, 2004 10:45 pm (#116 of 247)

Joao Costa, Snape agrees with Harry when Harry says that finding out what Voldemort is telling his Death Eaters is Snape's job. So I don't think that's an assumption. Many of us assume he's doing this by going undercover and pretending to be one of Voldemort's Death Eaters; the fact that he's one of the few who can lie to him, and the danger of his quest at the end of GoF support that a bit, I think.

Other people think he's more like a modern industrial spy--he doesn't actually infiltrate the enemy's organization, but he talks up members of it and gets information that way. This seems to me un-Snape-ishly cautious.

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T Brightwater - Dec 16, 2004 7:15 am (#117 of 247)

Aud Duck and Eponine, I'm with you! I think some of the overall patterns are deliberate. There are too many star and constellation names in the Black family, for example, for that to be a coincidence, but it doesn't necessarily have a deeper significance - it could just be a family tradition or even a fad.

Another common assumption I've spotted is that the series is really about Snape, or at least that his history will be vitally important to the main story. **ducks and runs for cover**

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kabloink! - Dec 16, 2004 7:42 am (#118 of 247)

Optician's Assistant
Why run for cover T Brightwater? I feel the same way. DOn't run-we'll stand fast together!

Edit: Oops, not that the series is entirely about Snape, persay, but that his history is, or will be,of vital importance.

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T Brightwater - Dec 16, 2004 11:52 am (#119 of 247)

Ooops, kabloink, I didn't make myself clear. The reason I'm running for cover is that I'm suggesting this assumption may not be true.

It's possible that many of us attach too much importance to Snape's role in the story. Yes, it would be interesting to know what makes him tick, but it may not be relevant.

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KWeldon - Dec 16, 2004 12:35 pm (#120 of 247)

Yes, it would be interesting to know what makes him tick, but it may not be relevant.

But, Jo herself refused to provide info on his patronus shape in a chat (and maybe also what animagus form he would take?---I can't remember exactly). If it wasn't important to the story, why would she care if the information was divulged?

I guess I'm thinking that we will find out more about him, but perhaps only why he switched sides and his whereabouts the night that James and Lily were killed. Oops, there are the assumptions again!

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Veritaserum - Dec 16, 2004 1:40 pm (#121 of 247)

Go Jays!
Maybe JKR made Mark Evans into just a neighborhood kid was because she knew that we always read way too far into it and wanted to mess with our heads (like that malicious cackling she mentioned doing on her website.)

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Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 1:44 pm (#122 of 247)

Gryffindor
Maybe Lord Thingy hasn't really returned......

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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 16, 2004 2:09 pm (#123 of 247)

I admit that I have tendency too read to deeply. This can be both a blessing and the bane of my existence and it has led to many erroneous assumptions my favorite being that Arabella Figg would be the DADA teacher in book five or six and that Crookshanks would be revealed as an animagus or metamorphagus.

I should have paid more attention to the story of King Richard III and King Edward V in history class because, the story presents an object lesson on how assumptions can affect writings.

One of the other assumptions I have made but, I think may need to retract are that Godric's Hollow will play an important role in the story and that Dorcas Meadowes is important because, she was killed by Voldemort.

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Sirius Lee - Dec 16, 2004 4:20 pm (#124 of 247)

Joao Costa, Snape agrees with Harry when Harry says that finding out what Voldemort is telling his Death Eaters is Snape's job. So I don't think that's an assumption. Ann

Yeah, but how often does Snape agree with Harry? He doesn't tell Harry anything else, ever, so why this vital, super-secret piece of information? I too fight the assumption that what Snape said was the truth. After all, Harry was the one who brought it up, so Snape could even be sarcastic in his response. I still think it's dangerous to assume that Snape was telling Harry/us he's indeed a spy.

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lobelia - Dec 17, 2004 10:39 am (#125 of 247)

I had made the assumption that people were reading to much into the hints, etc. I thought they were really grasping at straws on some things, including the wood of the wand and then she writes how she actually had researched this. So I will never again doubt the effort that she has put into every detail in this series.

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Solitaire - Dec 17, 2004 11:29 pm (#126 of 247)

Ann, in post 110, I was not referring to the repetition of the S sound in all of those words (which is indeed alliteration) but rather Severus Snape/Sever the Snake/Serves the Snake business. It reminded me of the comment by Julie Walters in EDUCATING RITA--following Michael Caine's explanation of assonance--where she says assonance "is getting the rhyme wrong."

Solitaire

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T Brightwater - Dec 18, 2004 10:15 am (#127 of 247)

As I understand it, Snape/tape is a rhyme, as is Potter/otter - same vowels, same consonants after the rhyming vowels. Snape/take or Potter/mocking is an assonance - the same stressed vowel sound, but not the same following consonant(s). Snape/snake has both assonance and alliteration (same beginning sound to the stressed syllable), but not rhyme.

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Solitaire - Dec 18, 2004 11:17 am (#128 of 247)

Bingo, Brightwater! (which, btw, is alliteration)

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Elanor - Dec 19, 2004 2:55 pm (#129 of 247)

I am rereading PS and one sentence in the first chapter struck me, when Vernon is thinking:

"It couldn't affect them...
How very wrong he was" .

It seems that every year, since Harry entered Hogwarts, this sentence had a new meaning for the Dursleys and in the next two books, it is highly likely that it will have new meanings for them too. We haven't discovered yet how wrong he was indeed and the worst is certainly to come. What do you think?

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T Brightwater - Dec 19, 2004 3:14 pm (#130 of 247)

I agree, Elanor. Especially once the Hogwarts letters start arriving, the wizarding world encroaches ever closer on the "perfectly normal" Dursleys.

PS/SS: Dudley gets a pig's tail which has to be removed surgically. CoS: Vernon's dinner party is disrupted by Dobby and a Ministry owl. PoA: The Dursleys see an escaped wizard "criminal" on television (without realizing it) and Vernon's sister gets accidentally inflated. GoF: The Dursleys' living room is disarrayed and Dudley gets a four-foot-long tongue. OotP: Dudley is exposed to a Dementor and Petunia gets a Howler from Dumbledore. At the end, the Dursleys are faced with their worst nightmare: the possibility that a bunch of the "weirdos" they've been trying to hard to pretend don't exist might turn up at their house in broad daylight in front of all the neighbors.

Actually, I'd love to see it in HBP - Lupin, Tonks, and Mad-Eye in shabby robes, pink hair, and a magical eye, marching up to the Dursley's front door to give them a talking to about the way they treat Harry - and Petunia trying to think of how she's going to explain this one...

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João Paulo Costa - Dec 20, 2004 5:35 am (#131 of 247)

One assumption that assaulted me some days ago is the following:

- I think that a majority of people mself included) has the assumtion that Voldemort will be defeated by the end of te series.

But what if that NOT happens? What if, somehow, there is (to put it somewhat simplistly) a victory for the bad side, or sme kind of stale mate? What could be related assumptions to this one?

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Hollywand - Dec 20, 2004 10:44 am (#132 of 247)

Gryffindor
JC, Knowing that Rowling spent her early years working for Amnesty International, teaching and now is a leader in about ten different charitable organizations would give us reason to think that the Potter series will on a note of triumph for the Hogwarts side and defeat for the Death Eaters.

Wizards hats off to Jo, she's certainly lit a lot of candles of hope with her creative spirit and projected the tragic death of her mother as one highly powerful Expecto Patronum.

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KWeldon - Dec 20, 2004 11:40 am (#133 of 247)

I'm in agreement with Hollwand. I think Voldemort's "vanquishing" is one assumption we can safely make. What exactly "vanquished" means in this context can NOT be assumed, however!! My guess is it is along Dumbledore's "there are things worth than death" fate that Voldemort will have to endure.

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T Brightwater - Dec 20, 2004 2:37 pm (#134 of 247)

From what we know of Jo, I can't believe that any story that would occur to her would end with a Voldemort win. There will be grief and loss still to come (she's told us that much) but I believe that hope and love will prevail in the end.

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João Paulo Costa - Dec 21, 2004 8:21 am (#135 of 247)

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

Hollywnd: you're right, I hadn't remember about the work of JK Rowling in charities.

KWeldon: your comment is very accurate (and I believe it could start a whole other thread).

T Brightwater: I remember that JK Rowling stated in an interview that there would be deaths, and Sirius is the first (not counting Cedric and Frank)

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Steve Newton - Dec 23, 2004 8:55 am (#136 of 247)

Librarian
Last night I realized that I am assuming that the books will still be structured around the school year and that most of what we see will be a Hogwarts. Including the arrival by Express.

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KWeldon - Dec 23, 2004 1:14 pm (#137 of 247)

Last night I realized that I am assuming that the books will still be structured around the school year and that most of what we see will be a Hogwarts. Including the arrival by Express.

Steve,

A common assumption. Look how much of Goblet of Fire occurred before Harry arrived at school. Now that the war has started, it will be hard to demonstrate events in the war when many of the protagonists (including DD, Hagrid, etc.) are tied down at Hogwarts. Surely Harry will be chomping at the bit.

KWeldon

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frogface - Jan 4, 2005 5:25 pm (#138 of 247)

I think in a way sometimes you need to make assumptions for the story to make sense for you. For example before GoF i had wondered how the castle was kept clean, and i came to the conclusion that things such as the beds made themselves in a rather magical like way:P, and as its been said, its possible that J.K Rowling may not divulge all the information to us. So sometmes I feel that we need to make assumptions to 'fill the gaps' so to speak for the story to make sense for us, even if those asumptions turn out to be wrong in the future.

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dizzy lizzy - Jan 4, 2005 11:45 pm (#139 of 247)

There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Or even if we never get confimation of our assumptions?? Filling gaps is entirely plausible with assumption, it's when they become fully fledged theories without back-up that I get worried.

Lizzy

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constant vigilance - Jan 11, 2005 12:36 pm (#140 of 247)

art student
One assumption or attitude I've noticed while reading the forum and this thread is that we can't take anything Jo tells us in the books or in interviews as true. For example: James is not dead. I don't believe this for one second despite the fact that I know two people who were believed to be dead in the books were not. Why, because that would be the most cruel thing Rowling could do to Harry, and I don't believe she is capable of that. Sometimes I see people taking one instance of a Twist of fate moment in the books and applying it to everything else.

The second assumption, which have to remind myself is wrong, is that Lucius Malfoy has no clue that Snape is playing both sides (if indeed Snape is spying on Voldemort) I think Malfoy is more of an observant threat and match for Snape than people want to acknowledge. Yes, Draco is a spoiled git with a big mouth, but Lucius nearly resurrected Tom Riddle. If Harry hadn't been a Parselmouth it would have worked without anyone knowing or being able to stop it.

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Steve Newton - Jan 11, 2005 12:51 pm (#141 of 247)

Librarian
cv, I have thought for a while that Snape and Malfoy are a separate group looking out to pick up the pieces after the others fight it out. I could easily be wrong or convinced of another possibility. I think that Malfoy wants to be top dog.

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constant vigilance - Jan 11, 2005 3:18 pm (#142 of 247)

art student
I agree that Malfoy would love to usurp power from Voldemort, and that he has the patience and shrewd ability for planning to try for it.

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The Artful Dodger - Jan 11, 2005 3:35 pm (#143 of 247)

An assumption that I have noticed is that many people think what seems obvious cannot happen, because JKR doesn't do obvious things. There is at least one good example to contradict this: Gilderoy Lockheart. In every single action we saw of him in CoS, he was portrayed as nothing but a show-off, and in fact, he was. So, an obvious thought is not necessarily wrong.

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hells456 - Jan 27, 2005 5:10 pm (#144 of 247)

Another assumption most people seem to make is that Dumbledore was in Gryffindor. Hermione said in PS/SS that "I hear Dumbledore himself was in it" but we are never told it as a definite fact. I personally believe that he was a Hufflepuff.

Hells

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Veritaserum - Jan 27, 2005 7:27 pm (#145 of 247)

Go Jays!
Yeah, but he could just as easily be a Ravenclaw...I actually thought he was in Ravenclaw until I read the book a second time.

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KWeldon - Jan 27, 2005 8:50 pm (#146 of 247)

I was just thinking today how the books until now have been so Gryffindor-centric. I hope we get more from other houses in the next two books. They're more interesting to me only because we know so little about them.

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Catherine - Jan 28, 2005 5:26 am (#147 of 247)

Canon Seeker
I don't think that we are assuming incorrectly about Dumbledore's Sorting.

Our own Lexcion states that he is a Gryffindor, as do other sources.

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JKR uses Hermione to convey facts to the reader, so I am quite comfortable with concluding that Dumbledore is a Gryffindor.

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hells456 - Jan 28, 2005 4:27 pm (#148 of 247)

Catherine "JKR uses Hermione to convey facts to the reader"

I have read that too, but my problem with it was that Hermione did not state it as a fact, just that she had heard it. She didn't even say that she had read it anywhere, we have no way of knowing how reliable her source was.

Hufflepuffs are big on loyalty, as is DD, after all that is why Fawkes saved Harry in CoS. Hufflepuff takes anyone and treats them the same, as does DD, look how he treats Lupin and Hagrid. I think it says in PoA that no one else would have allowed a werewolf into Hogwarts. DD is very bee-like (his name, his sweet tooth) and Hufflepuff colours are black and yellow like a bee.

I realize that DD is also brave, but it is the loyalty, fairness and complete lack of prejudice that I think defines him.

Hells

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Catherine - Jan 28, 2005 5:16 pm (#149 of 247)

Canon Seeker
Hells, we don't have a definitive moment of Dumbledore fondly recalling his own Sorting. Sorry for that.

However, every source I have consulted has affirmed my own inference, assumption, and belief that he is a Gryffindor.

Even movie contamination seems to support that he is a Gryffindor, in that he seems to approve Harry's Sorting, in the SS movie.

I find it telling that Hagrid and McGonagall are Gryffindors, and they are so very loyal to Dumbledore.

As for me, I am, as I have said, quite comfortable knowing that he is a Gryffindor.

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Ann - Jan 28, 2005 6:14 pm (#150 of 247)

But Catherine, Snape is pretty loyal to Dumbledore, too. And actually, if you look at it, Dumbledore is pretty manipulative, moving his pieces around on the chessboard. And heaven knows he's powerful. Maybe he was a Slytherin! (There's a uniting the houses theme for you!)

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Assumptions We've Been Making about Rest of Series (Post 151 to 200)

Post  Elanor on Sat May 21, 2011 11:42 am

Solitaire - Jan 29, 2005 12:46 am (#151 of 247)
the books until now have been so Gryffindor-centric

Could this be due to the fact that our hero--and his best pals--are Gryffindors? Most of the Order members seem to have been Gryffindors, as well. Hm ... like Catherine, I am quite comfortable thinking of Dumbledore as a Gryffindor.

Solitaire

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The giant squid - Jan 29, 2005 2:47 am (#152 of 247)

I'm comfortable assuming DD is a Gryffindor as well, but Ann's suggestion of Slytherin is really intriguing... What better way to show that not all Slytherins are bad guys (which, honestly, is all we've seen so far, to the point that "good Slytherins" are pretty much an assumption on our part).

--Mike

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Catherine - Jan 29, 2005 7:50 am (#153 of 247)

Canon Seeker
Like Mike, I think Ann's suggestion is intriguing, but I believe that JKR hasn't written Dumbledore to be a Slytherin.

Phineas Nigellus seems to enjoy opposing Dumbledore, and likes to compare Gryffindors to Slytherins. I feel certain that Phineas would not have proved so difficult if Dumbledore was really a Slytherin.

As for me, I am comfortable enough with Hermione's words that Dumbledore is a Gryffindor, with Dumbledore's knowledge about Gryffindor's sword and how only a true Gryffindor can pull it out of the Hat, with Dumbledore's appreciation of bravery and loyalty, with Dumbledore's difficulty with Phineas Nigellus, with JKR's assertion that she herself values courage more than anything else that I believe she has written Dumbledore as a Gryffindor. I am sure enough about this that I hope JKR doesn't waste this as a question on her official site!

But that's just me.

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hells456 - Jan 29, 2005 8:16 am (#154 of 247)

I agree that DD does appear to be a Gryffindor, but this is the assumptions thread and I am merely pointing out that this is still an assumption, no matter how likely it is.

We all know how well JKR likes to play with words, why didn't she get Hermione to say DD was a Gryffindor, or that Hermione had read it somewhere. The vagueness had me wondering and when I tried to look objectively at which house traits he most personified, I came up with Hufflepuff for the reasons I said above. He seems to place most importance on loyalty, giving second chances and treating everyone fairly.

I thought he was pleased that Harry was in Gryffindor because he was glad he wasn't in Slytherin. I also think that by now DD knows enough about the sorting hat and the founders and previous headmasters that his knowledge of their artefacts isn't surprising.

I have read that JKR values courage above all else and that she would have been a Gryffindor, but she also says that she wrote Hermione as a version of herself, not Dumbledore. She has said that she uses him to speak for her, but to my knowledge has never claimed to be similar to him.

DD is written so that we should think of him as a Gryffindor, but even Hermione doesn't know, she just heard, there is a difference. It strikes me as a nice JKR twist to have the house full of 'duffers' vindicated by finding out that DD, the most powerful and respected wizard was one of them.

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Veritaserum - Jan 29, 2005 12:51 pm (#155 of 247)

Go Jays!
I wonder why it is no one in the books ever talks about which house DD was in. You'd think whoever it was would be bragging about that fact.

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vball man - Jan 29, 2005 4:41 pm (#156 of 247)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
The Lexicon Dumbledore bio says he was in gryffindor. (Based on what Hermione's heard.)

Later it says that Dubmledore was transfiguration teacher and head of gryffindor house. I couldn't find a source for that.

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hells456 - Jan 29, 2005 4:56 pm (#157 of 247)

Well spotted vball man.

I know that Dumbledore was definitely the transfiguration teacher before becoming Head.

"Only the Transfiguration teacher, Dumbledore, seemed to think Hagrid was innocent." CoS

I think that the Lexicon has assumed that he was Head of Gryffindor because McGonagall is and she replaced his teaching post. This isn't necessarily true though as the two are very separate jobs. If Snape took over transfiguration he wouldn't switch to head of Gryffindor. I imagine that DD would have been head of whichever house he belonged to. I will search my books for a mention of him as head of house.

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Madame Librarian - Jan 31, 2005 7:24 pm (#158 of 247)

We've been told by JKR that in book 6 or 7 a student will change houses (did I remember that correctly?). I believe she said it during an interview of chat. So...if a student will do it in the current time, what if there was a precendent for that? DD arranges the transfer because he himself did it when he was a student. Now that would be an interesting tale to tell. It would, of course, be the lead-in to the student (Harry? Ron?) who wishes to switch now...

"You know, Harry (or Ron, or Luna or...), you are mistaken if you believe you are the only Hogwarts student who felt they must leave their house. Let me tell you about a young man--one I knew very well, very well indeed--who made the bold move back in my time."

Ciao. Barb

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Prefect Marcus - Jan 31, 2005 7:28 pm (#159 of 247)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jan 31, 2005 6:29 pm
Madame Librarian - We've been told by JKR that in book 6 or 7 a student will change houses (did I remember that correctly?)

Actually, we once had a very active thread on that very subject. There is not one authoritative reference anyone could find of her saying this. Perhaps you will have better luck.

Marcus

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Loopy Lupin - Feb 2, 2005 7:39 am (#160 of 247)

I do not have my books with me. Can anyone verify the Dumbledore as Head of Gryffindor House from the books? (Catherine? If you please?) I ask because JKR has told us that if someone is the head of a particular house, we can conclude that the person was in that particular house during their time at Hogwarts.

Marcus is quite right. No one has been able to unearth the switching house statement. At this point, the statement is included in some websites as a "hoax." I would have to believe that if DD had been in Hufflepuff, Hagrid wouldn't have referred to them as a load of "duffers." Indeed, Hufflepuff would probably tout that particular fact every chance they had. What's more, Huffepuff's lack of glory wouldn't extend as far back as JKR indicates in GoF. (Cedric was walking away from the kind of glory Hufflepuff hadn't seen in "100?" years. Catherine, dear?) It would have been only 45 years or so ago that one of their own, DD, had defeated Grindelwald.

At any rate, I don't think that we are "assuming" DD was a Gryffindor. We believe it because the books indicate that this is true. If it turns out to be false, it would be a case of JKR actively misdirecting us from the truth. It would not be a case of us making an unfounded assumption.




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Denise P. - Feb 2, 2005 8:05 am (#161 of 247)

Ravenclaw Pony
Hermione said to Ron and Harry (and us) "... I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best; I hear Dumbledore himself was in it, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad.... " and that is the only time I am aware that Dumbledore's house is mentioned. I don't believe JKR has ever confirmed it. Since we know Hermione is not always 100% accurate, I am not totally convinced Dumbledore WAS in Gryffindor. I think it is highly likely but it is not confirmed. Let me go check JRK quotes to see if I can find anything.

You know Hermione, had she READ it as a fact, she would have said "I read in XXX that Dumbledore himself.." Since she just has heard it, I don't think one should put as much weight into it being a fact.

Edit: I just looked on the Lexicon and QQ. There is nothing that JKR has said to confirm that he was Gryffindor and the Lexicon lists him as being a Gryffindor based on Hermione's statement. Decide amongst yourselves

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 7, 2005 2:41 pm (#162 of 247)

"...the House Elves know where their towels are..."

So when Dumbledore gives the word, they can free themselves and fight Voldemort?

(Pictures House Elves running into battle in those funny hooded-cloak towels you see kids wearing at the beach - in House colours of course!).

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Solitaire - Feb 7, 2005 3:17 pm (#163 of 247)

I wonder ... where do you think Hermione would have heard about Dumbledore? As a Muggle-born, surely she has had very little interaction with the Wizarding World up to the point where she makes the statement--probably just her trip to Diagon Alley to buy books and supplies and the train ride to Hogwarts. Now I'm really curious!

If it weren't for the fact that Hermione does not seem to mind being perceived as a know-it-all, I'd say she was framing her comment that way--as something she'd only heard--so that she didn't sound like one. Hmmmm ...

Solitaire

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Veritaserum - Feb 7, 2005 4:01 pm (#164 of 247)

Go Jays!
Muggle Doctor, where did you get that quote about the house elves and their towels? It reminds me of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy!

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Madame Librarian - Feb 7, 2005 7:48 pm (#165 of 247)

Solitaire, I imagine that Hogwarts, a History, which Ms. Granger read a few times, I believe, would contain information like that. Ah, but if so, why did she sound so tentative about DD's house? Maybe she hadn't read the book yet. Darn, I though I had this one nailed.

Ciao. Barb

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ex-FAHgeek - Feb 8, 2005 11:05 am (#166 of 247)

Perhaps she didn't have all the books so thoroughly memorized at this point that she couldn't remember exactly where she had read it... so she phrases it as something she'd "heard" to ward off the potential question.

After all, there's nothing worse than being unable to identify your citations... as a college student, I know this all too well.

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Solitaire - Feb 9, 2005 3:23 am (#167 of 247)

FAH, that sounds totally believable to me!

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hells456 - Feb 9, 2005 11:42 am (#168 of 247)

That's really good thinking FAH. The only problem is that just before she mentioned DD, Hermione said “I know all about you, of course — I got a few extra books, for background reading, and you’re in Modern Magical History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century.” PS/SS

This, and her knowledge in the first potions lesson leads me to believe that she would remember where she had read about DD and probably would have quoted it chapter and verse. I don't think she got it out of a book, especially not 'Hogwarts, a History' because she would have said. Also I doubt if most books would reveal which house he was in at school 135 years ago.

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Hollywand - Feb 9, 2005 4:22 pm (#169 of 247)

Gryffindor
To your point, hells456, the bookskeller at Flourish and Blotts probably told her all about the headmaster of the school she would be attending---including the house he had been sorted into by the Sorting Hat.

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Muggle Doctor - Feb 11, 2005 6:53 am (#170 of 247)

Muggle Doctor, where did you get that quote about the house elves and their towels? It reminds me of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy!

HHG was being discussed a little further up in this thread. My italics in my last post were a quote from someone - I've forgotten whom, and I was too distracted at the time to quote their name. Sorry.

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KWeldon - Feb 13, 2005 12:32 pm (#171 of 247)

One assumption many have been making, myself included, is that DD has to die before HP can face Voldie.

I was thinking, though, that perhaps this is a false assumption. That is, DD knows that only HP can defeat Voldie. DD can prepare Harry in every way possible and then just step aside, knowing that the fate of the WW lies in Harry's hands and that the prophecy in essence forbids DD to interfere. This doesn't mean that DD has to be dead.

What do all of you think about this assumption?

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Madame Librarian - Feb 13, 2005 1:29 pm (#172 of 247)

KWeldon, I'd like to think that, of course. And, maybe DD won't have to die before the final confrontation, just be very, very unavailable for any kind of back-up.

But--JKR seems to be following the classic pattern of hero/quest/good v. evil legends...mostly. Usually (a very qualified "usually" here) the Father Figure or Hero Mentor (or previous BWL/Most Powerful Wizard per vball man's grand theory) has to die in order for the Young Hero to come to full knowledge and potency. Think Yoda, think Obi Wan, think Eragon's dad, think Gandalf (wait...he comes back, doesn't he?), think Old Yeller, and on and on.

My point is JKR could switch tracks and keep DD alive and kicking, but she'd be re-designing the hero myth framework which is certainly OK and has been done before (Gandalf again). Either way, she's a good enough writer to pull it off, and we just have to wait and see.

The hinting so far is toward DD being out of the picture as I read things, but it's only hinting, and it's a clever author we're dealing with here.

Ciao. Barb

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KWeldon - Feb 13, 2005 2:05 pm (#173 of 247)

Barb,

Your post explains exactly why so many of us assume that it's going to happen.

KWeldon

SPOILER FOR ERAGON.........

P.S. Off-topic, glad to see that you also read Eragon, and I borrowed the book so I can't check this, but it wasn't his dad that was his mentor who also died, was it? I remember that the man had magical powers and taught Eragon a lot, but that's it. I'll have to re-read it before Eldest comes out.

EDIT: Do you mean Brom?

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TomProffitt - Feb 13, 2005 7:14 pm (#174 of 247)

Bullheaded empiricist
Madam Librarian, remember that Frodo didn't know Gandalf was sent back to middle earth by Manwe.

EDIT: does anyone know how to get an umlaut over the "e" in Manwe?

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Solitaire - Feb 13, 2005 7:39 pm (#175 of 247)

Doesn't Jo always keep telling people they are reading too much STAR WARS? Or is that just to throw us off the track, and she really IS going to send Dumbledore off to his next great adventure? I sure hope not! I'd like him to stick around ... although we have certainly been told how old he looks often enough lately to make me concerned ...

Solitaire

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Madame Librarian - Feb 13, 2005 9:54 pm (#176 of 247)

Re Eragon: his dad's already gone when the story opens, his older brother and uncle(?) get killed before he starts his trek, and yes, the guide and mentor character, Brom, also departs and leaves Eragon on his own. Alas, it's been a while since I read the book and details become fuzzy. I do recall it following the classic pattern, though.

Yes, JKR said not to read too much Star Wars into the story, but it's not just Star Wars (and I think she was referring to those who speculated that Voldemort was Harry's grandfather or something ala Darth Vader being Luke's dad) we're citing here. It's all the grand myths and legends that follow this plot line. Anyway, even if the pattern is not unusual, the skill of this author--in this case a brilliant talent--makes the difference because the delight and novelty is in the details not the framework.

Gosh, that seemed a bit incoherent. I'm pooped, long day. G'night, all.

Ciao. Barb

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hells456 - Mar 9, 2005 5:41 pm (#177 of 247)

Another assumption I have run across is that Tom Riddle's mother died in childbirth. As far as I'm aware, the text only says that she died shortly after the birth, nothing about her dying because of it.

In an interview JKR said we will learn more about his birth in the next book (I will try to find the quote in a minute). I find it hard to believe she will tell us something like she suffered with eclampsia, gasped out TR's name and then died. I have posted my ideas in the 'impotant questions...' thread.

Feel free to lob stuff at me.

Hells

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ruthlesspenguin - Mar 9, 2005 10:51 pm (#178 of 247)

Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
The assumption I have noticed recently is that there is some way in the wizarding world to distinguish between genuine prophecies that will come true and mad women speaking in wierd voices. Or to put it another way, that the prophecy will be fulfilled. This is probably a reasonable assumption, if only for the fact that if the prophecy turned out to be the world's biggest Mark Evans JKR would probably have to move to Mars to escape the hordes of angry Potter fans.

However for some reason I keep having this vision of the end of the final battle. Harry and Hermione are lying in the mud, surrounded by the remains of the battle; numerous dead or injured Death Eaters and Order Members, as well as the lifeless body of Voldemort, finally defeated by a blow to the back of his dead by Dudley and his Smelting Stick. Harry, in shock, turns to Hermione, 'But...the prophecy!', and Hermione replies, 'Well, Profeesor McGonagal always said divination is one of the most imprecise branches of Magic.'

<(')

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Ponine - Mar 10, 2005 5:32 am (#179 of 247)

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Penguin - I love it Smile

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Solitaire - Mar 11, 2005 8:23 am (#180 of 247)

And Ron, of course, will say, "I told you so!" Remember that even Hermione admonished him--near the end of OotP--when he said that he bet Dumbledore wished he could get rid of Sibyll, whom he called a fraud.

About telling the prophecies that are real from those that are so much perfumed smoke and hot air ... are the real ones in the Ministry? Is there some sort of official record of them? If Harry and Co. had been able to look around at their leisure, would they have found the prophecy Sibyll made directly to Harry ... about Peter?

I "assume" the prophecy will be fulfilled ... but it may wind up being like those headlines on the tabloids at the supermarket. Sometimes they are so bizarre, I wonder how they could possibly be put on the stupid papers ... so I read the article. The title is true, but only because it is twisted in some way and applied with a different meaning than I was thinking. Perhaps that is how things will play out in the end. It will wind up being true, but in a completely different sense than the one we were using to interpret it. (Does this make any sense to anyone?)

Solitaire

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Emily - Mar 11, 2005 10:23 am (#181 of 247)

Makes sense to me, but I'm not sure how she would do it. I thought the meaning was pretty clear, but then I don't know much about prophesies.

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ruthlesspenguin - Mar 11, 2005 4:16 pm (#182 of 247)

Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
About telling the prophecies that are real from those that are so much perfumed smoke and hot air ... are the real ones in the Ministry? -Solitaire

Ah yes, but how does the ministry know which ones are real prophecies? Most people seem to assume they are real prophecies, and then try to explain how they got there; perhaps some sort of signal goes off when a connection to the 'other world' where prophecies come from is made or perhaps witches and wizards can somehow tell if a real prophecy is made and report it. However, perhaps no-one knows what identifies a real prophecy. The DoM could be in the middle of a extensive study into prophecies, trying to determine the indicators of a true prophecy, and as such, the 'prophecies' they hold could be no more than a sample of people speaking in spooky voices.

Emily, your point is one of the things that make me suspicious. All through PoA we were being encouraged not to trust divination as a way of predicting the future. Trelawny is represented as a fraud and her classes a joke, and both McGonagall ('Divination is one of the most imprecise braches of magic.' Talons and Tealeaves, PoA) and Dumbledore ('The consequences of our actions are always so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed...' Owl Post Again, PoA.) warn against using prophecies as the definitive guide to the future.

By the end of OotP, sudenly prophecies are the answer to everything. Gone are our concerns about how closely to rely on prophecies. We are presented with two prophecies that are extremely precise and this is not a concern. And what evidence have we had? One prophecy has (almost) come true (maybe I'm too much of a science student, but one case does not constitute statistical evidence), there is a room devoted to something to do with prophecies in the DoM (which is a research institution) and Dumbledore believes it will come true.

If it weren't for the fact that it is a prophecy, and prophecies have a long literary tradition of coming true, I would have it near the top of my assumptions that will be proved false list. As it is, I will prophecise (you'll have to imagine the voice and unfocussed eyes) that something will happen in HBP to shake our faith in prophecies, and at the end of book 7 we will be able to debate whether the prophecy was made because Harry vanquishes Voldemort, Harry vanquishes Voldemort because of the prophecy or the two are merely coincidental.

Oh and I agree with you Solitaire, if it is fulfilled it won't be in a way we expect.

<(')

Edit: I should add that I haven't read any of the prophecy threads, so if my generalisations about what 'everyone' is saying are incorrect I apologise.

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Hollywand - Mar 11, 2005 5:57 pm (#183 of 247)

Gryffindor
Penguin, one bit to consider as well---Sibyll has made other "predictions" that were significant clues in the story. For example, Sibyll first sees the Grim, the black ghost dog. If I had listened to Sibyll and not the trio, I would have had a very densely packed clue that Sirius Black, would end up as a ghost dog.

Rowling gave a second clue (12 Grimauld Place = 13) the Grim again, but delivered it with an elaborate charm and a fight between Sirius and Severus, and slipped it right by me again.

I point these details out because some of Sibyll's other observations may bear fruit, not just her prophcies. Most are so used to thinking of her as a fraud, they don't see her as a source of information at all.

The second prophecy Sibyll makes is chilling, and part of it has been fulfilled so far....."the dark lord will rise more powerful than before...." if you look at Voldemort's speech to Harry in the graveyard, he tells Harry he is taking Harry's blood specifically because he believes it will make him more powerful. Voldy hasn't had the chance to hear Sibyll say these words....so he is unwittingly playing out something she has predicted.

We may be surprised at how many clues are hidden in Sibyll's tea room by the end, hoodwinked by a certain Newt Scamander....

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ruthlesspenguin - Mar 12, 2005 4:38 pm (#184 of 247)

Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
Hollywand, I do not doubt the examples you have given were deliberate on Jo's part, and that we should keep our eyes open for other such clues in the future, however to my mind they do not constitute evidence of Sybill's divination abilities.

Take the example of the Grim. From our perspective, experiencing only what Harry experiences (usually), the Grim comment is a big hit as to what is about to happen. We hear in divination that a black dog is a death omen, at the end of the book we meet Sirius, who transforms to a black dog and in two years he is dead.

However from the perspective of characters within the book it is not so simple. The Grim appears to be an accepted death omen, and I would guess that Sybill had been teaching her class about the Grim since she started working at Hogwarts. Sirius has been transforming into a black dog since his school days, some 15-20 years before his death. James, with his stag animagi, died some 15 years before Sirius. If we look at the omen as people who are associated with black dogs will die, well thats true, but so will people associated with stags, rats or penguins.

In the case of 'when 13 dine together the first to rise will be the first to die', it is imediately clear that there could be problems. What would happen if the same 13 people sat down to eat twice, and a different person got up each time? However when Jo is writing the books she can just not show meals that contradict each other.

To my knowledge, we haven't been given a definition of a prophecy other than a prediction which comes true, which doesn't really help us at the moment.

<(')

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Hollywand - Mar 12, 2005 6:06 pm (#185 of 247)

Gryffindor
Sorry, Penguin, I don't agree with introducing the Grim detail as exteraneous to Harry's immediate history as part of the book logic disproving Sibyll's abilities.

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vball man - Mar 15, 2005 2:11 pm (#186 of 247)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
hells456 - Mar 9, 2005 4:41 pm (#177 of 185)

Another assumption I have run across is that Tom Riddle's mother died in childbirth. As far as I'm aware, the text only says that she died shortly after the birth, nothing about her dying because of it.

In an interview JKR said we will learn more about his birth in the next book (I will try to find the quote in a minute). I find it hard to believe she will tell us something like she suffered with eclampsia, gasped out TR's name and then died.

Yes, I think that this is one of the best examples of an assumption in the series.
My mother died just after I was born, sir. They told me at the orphanage she lived just long enough to name me - Tom after my father, Marvolo after my grandfather."
Those are Tom's words to Dippet in the diary memory to Harry.
We can assume that it's true, but that's a big assumption. Did the orphanage know the whole story of Tom's birth? Did Tom remember it correctly? Did Tom tell Dippet the truth about what he knew? Did the diary show what actually happened in 1943?
Later, in the GoF graveyard, Voldemort says,
"He left her and returned to his Muggle parents before I was even born. Potter, and she died giving birth to me, leaving me to be raised in a Muggle orphanage..."
Again, though, was Tom right that she died while giving birth? Was Voldemort truthful? Who knows...

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Madame Librarian - Mar 15, 2005 4:23 pm (#187 of 247)

vball man, that is one of the key questions, in my opinion. There are so many reasons it could be not so. As I've said numerous times, we can't even be sure that Mom Riddle was all that nice a person, even though when Tom talks about her, he makes us think of a saintly, sacrificing, altruistic woman who chose a rotten cad for a husband. For all we know she could be the nasty one, and the husband a poor, duped victim.

Of all the characters in the series, Tom/Voldemort is the least likely to be telling the truth. Even when I give him the benefit of the doubt, and allow that he may not be intentionally lying here, he could simply be relating information given to him by someone (the orphanage director? the Wizard who delivered the Hogwarts letter?) who was lying for reasons we just don't know or understand as yet.

Ciao. Barb

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pottermom34 - Mar 15, 2005 4:35 pm (#188 of 247)

He may not be totally lying maybe he took what he learned and exaggerated a little, or made his own assumptions.

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Madame Librarian - Mar 15, 2005 4:51 pm (#189 of 247)

I think it would be an interesting plot twist to discover that Tom is just repeating what he's been told, but that whoever told him that story purposely wanted Tom to believe his mom was a saintly type and his dad was bad. Now who would want that? And why? If it was someone in the Wizarding world, then that means that there's another evil one who planted this whole myth of a family history in Tom when he was an impressionable 11 year old, hoping that it would set Tom on a path to revenge against Muggles and evil in general. Could it have been Grindelwald? Someone very surprising, someone we think is a good guy?

So if that were true (I grant you, a big if) here's another parallel between Tom and Harry--both were lied to about their parents.

Hmmm....it's things like this that keep me pondering into the wee hours (now that's when you know you're a HP addict).

Ciao. Barb

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T Brightwater - Mar 17, 2005 6:20 am (#190 of 247)

ruthlespenguin, literature is full of prophecies that came true because they were made and believed. If there hadn't been a prophecy about Oedipus, he'd have been raised by his own parents and there wouldn't have been a problem. Joseph is sold into slavery because he tells his brothers about his dream, which makes it possible for the dream to come true. Carmen's death comes about because of the way she reacts to a prophecy of her death. So far, Sybill's first prophecy looks like being another in that category.

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ruthlesspenguin - Mar 17, 2005 3:08 pm (#191 of 247)

Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
Brightwater, I realise that there are lots of examples of prophecies in literature, and they tend to come true, and I take Hollywand's caution against using Muggle logic in analysing Harry Potter. However isn't it possible that when authors make use of classic storytelling devices it is because they intend to break them, instead of conform to them?

Personally I think this is a prophecy that will only turn out to be true because those involved decide they don't believe it, which is similar to the second prophecy, which came true because Harry forgot about it. This idea has been coming to me since January when I read 'ManxMouse' by Paul Gallico (I posted a summary here), which Jo frequently recommends and involves a doom which only comes true when one of those involves decides he doesn't believe it. When I tried to see if this could apply to Harry, the only way I could think of would be if Harry decided he didn't believe the prophecy, which got me thinking about why I believe in the prophecy.

So, in spite of all my attempts at logic, the real motivation behind my posts was a desire to find a link between Harry Potter and a book Jo probably liked when she was 7.

<(')

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Hollywand - Mar 17, 2005 6:22 pm (#192 of 247)

Gryffindor
Penguin, hasn't Voldemort tried to circumvent the original prophecy three times, once in the crib at Godric's Hollow, once at his reincarnation at the graveyard under the Yew tree, and again by baiting Dumbledore in the Ministry for Magic ? Wouldn't he be the chap that doesn't believe the prophecy, or believes he is powerful enough to change his own destiny at will? Just asking, I hope I'm not being a nag. Wink

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ruthlesspenguin - Mar 18, 2005 4:29 pm (#193 of 247)

Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
Hollywand, I deliberately argue one side of an arguement I may not be sure about with the expectation (or hope:)) that someone will argue against me and change my mind or at least provide some new points I hadn't thought about. I also know my analysis tends towards being overly logical, which is why I like the forum, as it lets me read ideas from people with different perspectives. So don't worry about being a nag.

Anyway on to your point. I would guess that the piece of the prophecy Voldemort heard was 'The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him born as the seventh month dies'. Assuming Voldemort did attack Harry because of the prophecy (and not for example because he was the heir of Gryffindor), then Voldemort is behaving as the typical prophecy recipient. He hears of the prophecy, believes it, misinterprets it and tries to twist it to his advantage. Looking at the those two lines, they do not say that Harry will grow up and vanquish Voldemort, simply that he is the one with the power to do so. One interpretation Voldemort could have made is that if he kills the boy before he is able to be a threat to him, then noone else will have the power to defeat him.

On the other hand, a Voldemort that did not believe the prophecy, would not have worried about the Potters and continued with his muggle murders.

As an example of what I am getting at, consider the following situation. Harry is aware that Voldemort has kidnapped Ron (and this time he knows it is true), and also that it is a trap to try and get at him. Harry also believes that he is not ready to vanquish Voldemort, and would probably die, even if he could save Ron. A Harry that totally believes the prophecy would not go, as if Voldemort killed him, he could never be defeated (according to one interpretation) which would cause suffering for more people than just Ron. A Harry that doubted the prophecy (eg. he believes that if he doesn't get rid of Voldemort someone else could) or who thinks saving Ron is more important would rush to Ron's side.

<(')

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Hollywand - Mar 18, 2005 5:27 pm (#194 of 247)

Gryffindor
Thanks for your reply. I do see your argument. Dumbledore (I think) faced just this situation in the final battle of the Order of the Phoenix.

Dumbledore had the opportunity to save the entire Wizarding World much suffering by rising to Voldemort's bait---that is, if Dumbledore does not believe the prophecy. By killing the Harry/Voldemort entity, (Dumbledore was surely powerful enough to do so) Dumbledore could have saved a lot of future deaths by ending the cycle.

Ironically, Harry is in so much psychological and physical pain at this juncture, Harry himself is wishing for death as a release from suffering. That Dumbledore elects not to choose to kill the conjoined entity of Harry and Voldemort suggests that Dumbledore must believe the prophecy will be correct, and allows Harry to live, and encourages Harry to embrace his suffering and garner strength from his humanity to defeat Voldemort. Surely Dumbledore here is nurturing the "Power the Dark Lord Knows Not" in Harry, even though Harry is enraged at Dumbledore.

To me, an additional reason why Dumbledore weeps at the close of the Order of the Phoenix is the gravity of this decision.

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Solitaire - Mar 19, 2005 1:08 am (#195 of 247)

But isn't it Harry's willingness to accept death--his wish to die in order to end the pain he feels--that causes Voldemort to flee his body and escape? Will this knowledge that Harry would rather die that experience the pain of Voldemort's possession prevent Voldemort from ever attempting to possess Harry again?

Is Dumbledore weeping for what he knows Harry must ultimately face or for the evil he believes he--as a human who has fallen victim to his love for Harry--has unleashed upon the Wizarding World by not killing Voldemort/Harry when he had the chance? (I'm sorry ... it's late. I hope this makes sense.)

Solitaire

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ruthlesspenguin - Mar 19, 2005 2:14 am (#196 of 247)

Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
Hollywand, good point. The position Dumbledore found himself in at the ministry, even before Voldemort posessed Harry, is very similar to the one I described for Harry, and is a classic self-fulfilling prophecy. Dumbledore, the only wizard with the power and opportunity to vanquish Voldemort, hears and believes a prophecy which says he will not do so, and therefore does not make an attempt on Voldemort's life.

Returning to the issue of whether Voldemort believed the prophecy, I think you can make a valid interpretation of his actions if you assume Voldemort did not believe the prophecy and had another reason for wanting Harry dead. In this case Voldemort's interest in the prophecy only came about after Harry had defied him for the fourth time in the graveyard (If you think about it each time Harry used a power that Voldemort didn't know about or had forgot, although we don't know that Voldemort heard this part of the prophecy). If this is true, then there is another big revelation to come about Harry, which it appears even Dumbledore doesn't know about (as he told Harry 'everything').

Anyway, since my original post on this thread, my thoughts have changed a bit and I now think that while it is reasonable for us as readers to believe the prophecy will be fulfilled, we should not assume every character who hears it will assume this.

Solitaire, I still don't understand why Voldemort began possessing Harry, let alone why he stopped or whether he may do it again. Why would Voldemort think that Dumbledore would try and kill him while he was possessing Harry, when he didn't try and kill him wen he was in his own body? If there was some reason why Voldemort was more vulnerable in Harry's body, why would Voldemort, whose greatest fear is death, put himself in a situation in which he could possibly be killed?

<(')

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Solitaire - Mar 19, 2005 10:23 am (#197 of 247)

Voldemort used Sirius to get to Harry. Perhaps this time he used Harry to know how vulnerable Dumbledore was where Harry was concerned. We do not really know--do we?--exactly how Dumbledore vanquished Grindelwald. Was he willing to sacrifice anyone else to take out Grindelwald? This could be an important question. Why?

If Dumbledore was willing to make sacrifices "for the greater good of the WW" last time, but he is unwilling to sacrifice Harry--even though the greater good of the Wizarding World would be served--is it simply because he loves Harry? Or are Harry's potential future power and importance to the WW even greater than Voldemort has believed thus far? Again, I hope this makes sense.

Solitaire

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ruthlesspenguin - Mar 19, 2005 3:58 pm (#198 of 247)

Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
Solitaire, I can see why Voldemort would want answers to the questions you suggest, but I don't see how possessing Harry would get answers to these questions. To put my objections another way, if Voldemort told you if you AKed him right now it would kill him, would you believe him, or would you suspect a trap? I just don't see why Dumbledore would try to kill Voldemort when he told him to, under any circumstances, regardless of whether Harry was involved or not.

It is usually assumed that Voldemort was using Harry to test Dumbledore, but couldn't we turn the statement on its head and say Voldemort was using Dumbledore to see how vulnerable Harry was. To Voldemort's mind, nothing is worse than death, and the thought that Dumbledore, who has become almost a (great, great) grandfather figure to Harry, would be willing to kill him, would fill Harry with such a sense of hatred and betrayal, that it would stengthen the connection between him and Voldemort.

If such emotions in Harry made it easier for Voldemort to possess and control Harry, his intention may have been to use Harry as a weapon against Dumbledore. This make the decision Dumbledore has to make so much more difficult: to kill Harry/Voldemort or to be killed himself.

I think this provides a possible reason for Dumbledore's tear. At the moment Voldemort possessed Harry, there was nothing Dumbledore could do to save him; Harry was truly alone. I think Dumbledore would sacrifice his life to save Harry, but even if he had allowed Harry/Voldemort to kill him, he could not save Harry. To Dumbledore this absolute powerlessness is probably worse than death, and by telling Harry about the prophecy, he is acknowledging that it will happen again.

<(')

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Albus Silente - Mar 19, 2005 4:32 pm (#199 of 247)

I think the fact that Dumbledore did not kill the "Pottermort" just shows us that Dumbledore doesn't run into Voldemort's trap, he knows his tricks and is already some steps ahead. Voldie might have thought that Dumbledore would kill him if he knew him "prisoner" in Harry. But the greatest wizard alive KNOWS that only the "Harry-Shell" would die, not the Voldie-thing it contained.

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Solitaire - Mar 19, 2005 5:55 pm (#200 of 247)

But the greatest wizard alive KNOWS that only the "Harry-Shell" would die, not the Voldie-thing it contained.

I think this is probably true, and Dumbledore knew it (even if Voldemort didn't realize he knew). I also believe that Voldemort was trying to find out a few things, too. I think he wanted to know how deeply Dumbledore cared for Harry and thought this might be a way to find out. Or perhaps he could have been trying to see whether Dumbledore would risk overriding the prophecy if he believed he had a chance to take out Voldemort himself. Dumbledore, of course, did not fall for this gambit.

I do believe Voldemort found out more than he bargained for, when Harry said to kill them both--because he learned that Harry did not fear death as he fears death. An opponent who is not afraid to die is probably more formidable than one who fears death ... because a fearless opponent will hazard all to win. This gives Harry an edge, and it puts Voldemort at a disadvantage. He will now need to rethink his strategy, I believe.

I do not think that Harry would have been filled with hate had Dumbledore killed him, because he would have been dead before he knew what hit him. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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Assumptions We've Been Making about Rest of Series (Post 201 to 247)

Post  Elanor on Sat May 21, 2011 11:43 am

ruthlesspenguin - Mar 20, 2005 12:20 am (#201 of 247)
Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
It appears I didn't explain my idea about why Voldemort possessed Harry very clearly, so I'll try again. However, I'll first put in a caution that I don't have OotP with me and am speculating from memory.

In the possession scene, Voldemort possesses Harry, taunts Dumbledore about killing Harrymort and then stops possessing Harry when Harry thinks about Sirius. As the only thing Voldemort did while possessing Harry was taunt Dumbledore, we assume this is the reason he possessed him, however Voldemort may have had other intentions that he was unable to follow through.

My idea was that Voldemort may have intended to use Harry as a weapon against Dumbledore. In Voldemort's plan, either Harrymort would succeed in killing Dumbledore, or Dumbledore would attack, and Voldiespirit could escape leaving Harryshell to take the curse. Depending on Dumbledore's decision, either Voldemort's Harry-problem or his Dumbledore-problem would be solved.

The fear and hatred bit came in because we have seen it is difficult for voldemort to come in contact with Harry when he is filled with love and other positive emotions. So perhaps Voldemort thought it would be easier to possess Harry while he was filled with negative emotions such as fear. The purpose of the taunt would then have been to focus Harry's thoughts on the fact that Dumbledore may kill him, a thought which Voldemort believed would fill him with negative emotions.

<(')

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Hollywand - Mar 20, 2005 9:25 am (#202 of 247)

Gryffindor
RPenguin, you explain the scenario quite well. I would add that additionally, Voldemort is intentionally baiting Dumbledore, causing DD heart wrenching suffering with his arrogant, cruel display of power when poessessing Harry.

The three wizards now know that Harry and Voldemort are mysteriously conjoined. Voldemort shows off his ability to invade Harry's body, and speak through his mouth. As you pointed out brilliantly, we can only imagine the suffering caused to Dumbledore as he bears witness to this terrible act, yet cannot make a definitive decision to take Voldemort's life for fear of taking Harry's as well. Harry does seem to face his agony alone but here I think Rowling resolves the dilemma with a poetic resolution that is one of the finest in the series.

The wizard who defends Harry is Sirius. Sirius returns from Beyond the Veil (the title of the chapter) and floods Harry's heart with love and grief. As James returned as the hart to defend Harry from the dementors, Sirius returns as a memory to fill Harry's heart and leave no room for Voldemort.

Your point about Voldemort, in each occasion, is defeated by power he doesn't know about, power he has forgotten about, is tremendous!

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ruthlesspenguin - Mar 21, 2005 3:15 am (#203 of 247)

Recently returned from a rather lengthy forum break involving exams, travel and of course a great deal of rereading...
Hollywand, your suggestion that Voldemort's taunt had the dual purpose of distracting Harry and causing Dumbledore pain makes sense. Looking at the comment again, I get the feeling something is not right about it. Perhaps it is the lack of subtlety; Dumbledore tells Voldemort 'There are worse things than death' and Voldemort responds with 'If death is nothing...' (quoutes from memory). Clearly Dumbeldore never said death was nothing, and it seems to me that there was a reason Voldemort took his words to such an extreme.

Perhaps Voldemort was trying to show Dumbledore he knows his weakness too. His comment could be interpretted as 'You may not fear your own death, but the deaths of others (eg Harry) do mean something to you and are what stops you from defeating me'. This provides a nice contrast between Dumbledore and Voldemort, in that Voldemort's greatest fear is loosing his own life, while the loss of his supporters means nothing and Dumbledore does not fear for his own life, but for others.

It also links with Dumbledore's comment that he 'acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act' (OotP ch37, taken from the lexicon). Dumbledore may have refrained from killing Voldemort in the ministry due to his belief in the prophecy, rather than his love for Harry, but if the above was Voldemort's intended meaning, in general Voldemort was correct; Dumbledore has shielded Harry at the expense of the possibility of defeating Voldemort.

I also really liked the link you made to Sirius returning from beyond the veil to protect Harry. I have long felt that Harry has a really bad habit of assuming he is alone when he isn't and not accepting others help (eg, in PS he is reluctant to let Ron and Hermione come through the Trapdoor with him, by OotP he accepts their help, but does not want to extend this to other DA members. He also forgets Snape is a member of the Order and about Sirius' mirror.), but perhaps I made the same mistake.

In your post you link this to James as the patronus in PoA, but my imediate thought was the conclusion of PS, in which it is Lily who protects Harry via the blood charm. I also noticed that in all three cases, Harry instinctively turns to Dumbledore for help; in PS he repeatedly instructs Ron and Hermione to send Hedwig to Dumbledore and in PoA after experiencing the Shreiking Shack/Dementor sequence for the first time he 'felt as if the ground beneath him was falling sharply away' (Hermione's Secret, PoA) when Dumbledore was not able to simply fix things as he had expected. While in PS Dumbledore physically rips Quirrelmort from Harry, in PoA he is only able to provide advice, and in OotP he is forced to just watch.

<(')

Edit, I am getting a bit concerned our discussion is becoming increasingly off-topic. Do you think we should move to another thread, and if so which one?

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Hollywand - Mar 21, 2005 9:33 am (#204 of 247)

Gryffindor
Brilliant post, Ruthless Penguin, very enjoyable to read. I think you have summed up the topic we are talking about nicely.

I think others would enjoy your observations from the text, and if you'd like to continue it on another thread, I would suggest....gosh.....the Harry Potter thread? Or Dumbledore? I will look additonal comments there......

I think you are correct in pointing out that Voldemort, in sum, does seem to be awfully astute, and to some degree correct in showing Dumbledore his weaknesses----I would point out that Harry's personal instincts parallel Dumbledore's in that Harry is not as concerned about losing his own life, as he is about preventing the deaths of others. Rowling introduces the notion forcefully with the near Avada Kedavra of Hermione, then sucker punches with the death of Sirius. More sucker punches in store for us gleeful readers????

Rowling does seem to be making a larger point about the "Heir of Gryffindor" that Harry must learn to allow others to participate to claim his role as leader, and not try to face the Dark Lord alone.

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Tomoé - Mar 25, 2005 9:26 pm (#205 of 247)

Back in business
Those last post were very hindsightful ruthlesspenguin.

While in PS Dumbledore physically rips Quirrelmort from Harry, in PoA he is only able to provide advice, and in OotP he is forced to just watch.

Hum ... it doesn't bode well for book 7 ...

Maybe we should continue on Connections Between Harry & Voldemort.

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Puck - Mar 28, 2005 8:28 am (#206 of 247)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
What about the asummption that we have to watch the Slytherins for Dark activity? I mean, I'm sure we do, but Ron's comment in PS/SS about all the dark wizards being from that house isn't true, as we now know. Peter was not in Slytherin. JKR herself has said that the Sorting Hat is not infallible. I think someone less expected is going to turn out to be in with the Death Eaters.

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frogface - Apr 2, 2005 1:40 am (#207 of 247)

Thats true, I've noticed alot of people are actually starting to suspect that we will find out that some of the Slytherins will turn out to be good guys in the end, and it would tie in with the continuing messages of predujice that have popped up in the series.

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constant vigilance - May 17, 2005 8:16 am (#208 of 247)

art student
I have nothing to add to the assumptions list. However, I would like to compliment Penguin, Hollywand and Solitaire for their insightful words. You have given me much to ponder. Well done!

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Netherlandic - May 18, 2005 1:40 pm (#209 of 247)

Frogface, I quite agree with you. There might also be bad wizards in one of the three other houses...

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GryffEndora - May 27, 2005 2:22 pm (#210 of 247)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
I just realized that I have been making an assumption about Harry's protection at #4, so I though I'd add it to this discussion. Please forgive me if it has already been discussed here. My assumption is that Harry's protection from Petunia will end on his 17th birthday when he becomes a legal adult. Even though he will have to continue his studies at Hogwarts I just assume his adulthood will end his need to live at #4. Perhaps, because they will throw him out, or perhaps because he will leave, or perhaps because being a legal adult he needs to make his own home. I don't know if this is accurate, as I said, I just realized it's what I've been assuming. Thoughts? Dungbombs?

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hells456 - May 27, 2005 3:53 pm (#211 of 247)

He usually leaves 4PD around his birthday anyway, so I don't think that will change too much (although he will have to have found out more about Petunia first). One way or another he won't return to there the next summer, he will either die or defeat Voldemort. Either way the protection (or lack of) will not matter anymore.

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Choices - May 27, 2005 6:35 pm (#212 of 247)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Netherlandic - "There might also be bad wizards in one of the three other houses..."

I think it was Ron who told us in book one that there hasn't been a witch or wizard that went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. Of course, he could be wrong, but that's the only source we have so far for information on bad wizards and their house.

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Ms Amanda - May 27, 2005 7:56 pm (#213 of 247)

Er, wasn't Peter in the same house as James Potter?

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Jennifer Anderson - May 28, 2005 12:34 pm (#214 of 247)

In the book it was Hagrid who said that there hasn't been a witch or wizard that went bad that wasn't in Slytherin, in the moive it was Ron said that.

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Solitaire - May 28, 2005 12:50 pm (#215 of 247)

Jennifer, the movies take a lot of liberties with the books. I suppose it has to do with the time limitations.

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Choices - May 28, 2005 2:10 pm (#216 of 247)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Thanks Jennifer - you are correct. Whaaa....I've been movie contaminated!! I knew I heard that line somewhere. LOL

Ms Amanda - "Er, wasn't Peter in the same house as James Potter?"

I am not sure whether JKR has confirmed that or not, but I think it is generally assumed that Peter was in Gryffindor. Obviously, an exception to Hagrid's statement. Maybe somehow Peter will redeem himself - return to the good side and make Gryffindor proud.

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Veritaserum - May 28, 2005 3:56 pm (#217 of 247)

Go Jays!
Yeah, I always figured Hagrid's/Ron's statement to be a bit of a generalization.

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Choices - May 28, 2005 6:45 pm (#218 of 247)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Good way to put it Veritaserum. There are always exceptions to every rule.

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Netherlandic - May 30, 2005 1:45 pm (#219 of 247)

It would be too much of a coincident if only Slytherin would provide bad wizards. Too simple too. And since I think we haven't seen much of Ravenclaw yet, I would dearly like to become acquinted with a bad Ravenclaw.

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Choices - May 30, 2005 2:48 pm (#220 of 247)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Ohhhh, smart and evil. LOL

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The giant squid - May 30, 2005 11:39 pm (#221 of 247)

JKR "sort-of" confirmed that Peter was in Gryffindor. By that I mean on a recent chat someone was asking what house the Marauders were in & JK said they were all in Gryffindor, but the poster listed Sirius twice and didn't list Peter. Most people assume that all four Marauders were meant to be specified but technically JKR hasn't said that Peter was in Gryffindor.

--Mike

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Paulus Maximus - Jun 5, 2005 4:08 am (#222 of 247)

"Good way to put it Veritaserum. There are always exceptions to every rule."

Except this one. Smile

Hmm... Is it assumed that Harry will fight Voldemort to the death as soon as he finishes Hogwarts? It seems a bit odd to me that he would do this when he is only 17.

If the 7th book does indeed have an epilogue, might the final battle be covered in it? That would give Harry time to finish Auror training (which I somehow suspect that he'll need if he's to defeat Voldemort)...

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frogface - Jun 5, 2005 4:43 am (#223 of 247)

That does mean that the 7th book will have to cover about four years though. (Auror training takes at least 3 years if memory serves correctly.) I think its a safe assumption to make that the 7th book will cover not much more than one year and therefore the confrontation between Harry and Voldy will happen during or just after Harry's final year at Hogwarts.

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Paulus Maximus - Jun 5, 2005 2:56 pm (#224 of 247)

A seventeen-year-old against the Dark Lord...

My money would be on the Dark Lord, then...

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Choices - Jun 5, 2005 6:59 pm (#225 of 247)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Harry has faced Voldemort at younger ages than 17 and bested him. My money would be on Harry. After all, he has Good on his side.

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Jessalynn Quirky - Jun 6, 2005 2:50 am (#226 of 247)

Same here. I feel confident Harry can at least defeat the Dork Lard, but will he survive?

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Paulus Maximus - Jun 6, 2005 5:51 am (#227 of 247)

Harry has only ever survived against the Dark Lord, never beaten him, and as he says, he got lucky and had lots of help.

He isn't going to be able to depend on anyone helping him in the final battle... The prophecy forbids it...

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Choices - Jun 6, 2005 10:02 am (#228 of 247)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
In a way, I think surviving the Dark Lord is beating him. Voldemort wants Harry dead and Harry had not died, so that is a type of victory.

No one is going to fight Voldemort for Harry, but that's not to say they won't be behind him handing him ammunition.

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Veritaserum - Jun 6, 2005 10:10 am (#229 of 247)

Go Jays!
Hmm, I guess I always did assume Harry would be fighting Voldemort when he was 17. Maybe I'm just partial because I'm 17, but I think he can do it. It may not turn out entirely happily for everybody though...

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frogface - Jun 6, 2005 10:11 am (#230 of 247)

To be honest if Harry was a match for Voldemort then the books probalby wouldn't be nearly as exciting anyway. I agree with Choices that no one is going to fight Voldemort directly with Harry, but that doesn't mean that others will not contribute to Harry's success in some way.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 6, 2005 11:56 am (#231 of 247)

No one is going to fight Voldemort for Harry, but that's not to say they won't be behind him handing him ammunition. --Chioces

Let me add to chorus agreeing with you, Choices. One of Harry's great strengths is that he has reliable and intelligent friends and allies.

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timrew - Jun 6, 2005 3:55 pm (#232 of 247)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Voldemort wins. Hah! This really shouldn't be under discussion. We know he's going to lose. Harry will triumph. Whether he ends up dead or not, he will still win, and 'Good' will vanquish 'Evil'.

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KWeldon - Jun 6, 2005 3:59 pm (#233 of 247)

I certainly agree that Good will vanquish Evil, but I suspect JKR will make it clear that there will always be dark wizards and the need for aurors, for example. Let's hope Harry is one of 'em, for more than one reason.

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Paulus Maximus - Jun 7, 2005 10:56 am (#234 of 247)

Why assume that good has to win?

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KWeldon - Jun 7, 2005 11:29 am (#235 of 247)

Because millions of fans would lynch JKR if it didn't. It's human nature to want to write and read about good triumphing over evil, and in this case in particular I can't see that she will have Voldemort win. My two knuts.

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Choices - Jun 7, 2005 2:09 pm (#236 of 247)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
KWeldon - "Because millions of fans would lynch JKR if it didn't."

I couldn't agree more. From all we have read so far, I can't imagine that she would let evil triumph.

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Steve Newton - Jun 7, 2005 3:18 pm (#237 of 247)

Librarian
Ah, but could she let triumph and evil be more ambiguous?

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KWeldon - Jun 7, 2005 3:29 pm (#238 of 247)

There's no doubt there could be ambiguity in the conclusion, except where it comes to Voldemort. He will be vanquished (my assumption). Whether or not Harry dies and/or other dark wizards or other dark creatures remain is certainly possible.

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Tomoé - Jun 7, 2005 4:50 pm (#239 of 247)

Back in business
Why assume that good has to win?

Because millions of fans would lynch JKR if it didn't.

I couldn't disagree more, it is no to please the readers that JKR will make Harry wins, but because the story would only begin if Voldemort wins. If Harry wins, the story is over.

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KWeldon - Jun 7, 2005 5:46 pm (#240 of 247)

Tomoe,

My statement was not meant literally, of course, although it is not uncommon that authors would want to please their readers. Yes, you are right that the story will be over if Harry wins, and the story sure does look like it's going to be over with Book 7.

KWeldon

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Tomoé - Jun 7, 2005 7:29 pm (#241 of 247)

Back in business
Oh I'm sorry, my last post sounds more rude that it sould have been. I'm too exhausted to think strait, so I'll go to bed before doing another not so well thought out remark. ^_~

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Honour - Oct 28, 2005 6:14 pm (#242 of 247)

I have read in a few posts that Dumbledore could/seems/may well be a descendant of Godric Gryffindor's?

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Finn BV - Oct 28, 2005 8:26 pm (#243 of 247)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Honour, I think that's more of a theory than an assumption — assumption, in this case, meaning "things we've been taking for granted." As KWeldon states in the opening, post, we have been assuming all along that Voldemort will be defeated, Harry will live until the end of the seventh book, and Dumbledore will not betray Harry (which, since HBP, has been proved true). I don't think we've been taking for granted and been considering "obvious" that DD is the descendent.

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KWeldon - Nov 2, 2005 8:59 pm (#244 of 247)

It's been so long since I started this thread, but I was thinking this morning about one more assumption that I've made personally, and I can't remember if I've brought it up nor do I have time to re-read the thread.

I have always pictured Harry as the one to defeat Voldemort, which I think is a safe assumption to make (duh), but I have always pictured it in my mind as happening one-on-one, with no others around. I figured DD would have to be gone, which many did, because Harry needs to vanquish Voldie himself without help from others, but this does not necessarily mean that it has to be to the exclusion of others being present when it happens.

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I Am Used Vlad - Nov 2, 2005 9:27 pm (#245 of 247)

I Am Almighty!
Is it a safe assumption that Harry will be the one who defeats Voldemort? Didn't JKR say that the prophecy remains ambiguous both to the readers and her characters?

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KWeldon - Nov 3, 2005 7:47 am (#246 of 247)

I suppose it's formally possible that Harry is not the one who vanquishes Voldemort, but that instead it is Neville or someone else born at that time. What a huge twist if that's true.

Nevertheless, assuming that it is Harry that must defeat Voldemort, it may be that it happens in front of his friends, the Order, Death Eaters, you name it.

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haymoni - Nov 3, 2005 8:21 am (#247 of 247)

There wasn't a doubt in my mind that Harry would be The Chosen One.

Didn't see the whole Horcrux thing coming or any of that, but I think I always assumed it without even thinking about it.

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