Change of Heart - Change your Mind

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Change of Heart - Change your Mind

Post  Elanor on Wed May 25, 2011 8:17 am

Change of Heart - Change your Mind

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 8, 2006 12:10 am
Edited by Kip Carter Apr 13, 2006 3:11 am
It could go under "treason" thread but a change of heart is different. Yes, from the another's perspective it may be treason, but a change of heart in HP book 7 could be the difference between life and death.

So, will Lockhart come out of the loony bin and make a pact with Vold? Will young Zacharias Smith decide the cup, his *rightful* inheritance, is worth more than anything and undermine Harry? Will Nagini choose to upset her master and help Harry? Will Pettigrew sacrifice himself for Harry's benefit? Will the centaurs decide humanity is worth saving? Will Narcissa provide assistance, realizing her disillusioned son and her own life are worth more than playing along with DE's and her cowardly husband? Will Bella go down or will she, too, understand Vold's empty promises and seek his disempowerment? Will Snape lay aside his "pride" mask and approach Harry as a new guide into the final stage of his quest?

In order to have a change of heart, one must first become a hypocrite...at least mentally. We know JKR used the word "hypocrite" several times in book 6. What messages are we getting about "hypocrites" and "changes of heart" in the series?
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Change of heart Change your mind (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Wed May 25, 2011 8:19 am

Solitaire - Jan 8, 2006 1:26 am (#1 of 75)
Hm ... I'm not sure Bella has a heart. She certainly was more rational in HBP than OotP, but I suspect she is too wrapped up in Voldemort and his way of life and will go down in full DE mode. If Snape is truly on the side of good, however, he may try to bring Draco and Narcissa out of DE clutches ... if she is willing. That would almost make me believe he is a good guy.

Has it been confirmed by Jo that Zacharias is indeed Hepzibah Smith's heir? Just wondering ...

Solitaire

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 8, 2006 1:17 pm (#2 of 75)

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No, we've got no confirmation of Zacharias descendency. However, it is safe to say JKR is being extra careful to only use same surnames when a link is going to be made relavent to the plot line.

Regarding Bella, I'd think a woman as shrewd as she is *might* take an opportunity to leave Vold's side after watching one too many empty promises he makes to "reward" certain DE's... Then again, she might not.

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Rosariana - Jan 8, 2006 11:28 pm (#3 of 75)

Yes, I would think she'd be extra careful considering that Mark Evans fiasco, even with a name as common as "Smith."

As for Bella, she is shrewd, but I don't see her as a "think for yourself-er," if you know what I mean. She supports Voldemort so fiercely that she values his life greater than her own. She said she would be glad to give up her sons to the Dark Lord if she had any. I don't see her deserting him ever.

I'd like for her to mess something up so bad that Voldemort disowns (for lack of a better word) her from the death eaters. This would be, in her mind, the deepest and most excruciating wound. Then Harry gets her and gets his revenge for Sirius's death.

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Steve Newton - Jan 9, 2006 7:07 am (#4 of 75)

Librarian
Actually, I don't think that Voldemort would use the word disown. I think that he prefers kill.

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zelmia - Jan 10, 2006 7:02 pm (#5 of 75)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I think characters like Bella and Lucius are so immersed in the Death Eater way that they are beyond redemption. Each fancies themselves as Voldemort's "Favourite" and seems to expend every ounce of energy vying for that title at the expense of everything else in their lives.
Rather than feeling anything remotely like remorse, both Lucius and Bella view a stint in Azkaban as an honorable penance for the Cause. I would be supremely shocked to read that either of these two changed at all.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 11, 2006 2:46 pm (#6 of 75)

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I basically agree about Bellatrix, but the old saying "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" could very well apply to her from what we've seen and heard from this woman. If Vold passes her up again and again for DE "promotions" or whatever she expects from her unwavering devotion, it could be that she'll snap.

I see it like a doberman who turns on her master.

Lucius is a gonner. He's never going to be "redeemed" in Vold's eyes and he'll never be able to pretend he was imperiused again to the MoM, etc., so he's gonna rot in Azkaban.

Narcissa is definitely a possibility for a surprise ally who might prove quite resourceful...

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Choices - Jan 11, 2006 7:01 pm (#7 of 75)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
But would the "good" side really want someone like Bella? Even if she changed sides, she is still Bella - a really crazed woman willing to do just about any dirty deed to achieve her ends. I say she is too unpredictable to be trustworthy. Besides, if she changed sides, it would be to get revenge on Voldemort, not because she has become a good person. Zebras do not change their stripes. Nope, I still want to see her zapped - by Neville or Harry or Lupin. Oh heck, by anyone!!

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 11, 2006 8:08 pm (#8 of 75)

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Luckily, Choices, it is DD's mercy and not yours who will enter the Wizard Witness Protection Program. I mostly agree about Bella but the same could be said about Lucius and DD extended an invitation to him as well as Draco and Narcissa...

We definitely must agree to disagree regarding the "Zebras". If that motto was the code for rehabilitation, there'd be absolutely no room for rehabilitation, we'd be a very sorry world that I'd want no part of.

I'm not saying all DE's *want* to be redeemed but they must be given the choice and if they are sincere then their actions will redeem them.

This is partially why I found Ginny's "hypocrite" comments in HBP so very intriguing. People generally do not want to see others change their mind without a formal public announcement and/or apology. She was freaked out and more than a little angry that Ron would do the very thing he accused her of *wrongly* doing. I am willing to bet that JKR has another incident of this. Will it only be the obvious Harry/Snape dynamic? Or will it be something like Bellatrix accusing Snape of all of the things that she reluctantly sees in herself? Namely, doubting Vold...

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Weeny Owl - Jan 11, 2006 10:07 pm (#9 of 75)

Lucius is a gonner. He's never going to be "redeemed" in Vold's eyes and he'll never be able to pretend he was imperiused again to the MoM, etc., so he's gonna rot in Azkaban.

I'm not so sure he will rot in Azkaban. The article did mention him being a Death Eater, but it said the Death Eaters were in prison for tresspass and attempted theft or something like that. Neither of those sound like crimes that would receive a life sentence, so unless there's a law that states that Death Eaters receive life sentences, it's possible they could all be released.

I think Bella and Company were sentenced to life terms because of torturing the Longbottoms and not because of the Death Eater thing, although I'm not totally sure.

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Solitaire - Jan 11, 2006 11:19 pm (#10 of 75)

I agree with Zelmia that Bella will never change. About Lucius ... I'm not so sure. I don't think he would ever change his long-held prejudcies deep down ... but I think he must have accepted the fact that he is no longer Voldy's fair-haired boy. Narcissa has already said that there is nothing she won't do anymore. I got the distinct impression that Draco knows he is in over his head. Can Lucius be far behind? Maybe, maybe not ... Remember that they are Slytherin to the core and will probably opt to save their skins rather than die for Voldemort. Just a thought ...

Solitaire

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haymoni - Jan 12, 2006 8:07 am (#11 of 75)

I think the only thing Lucius regrets is his comfort.

He had it pretty good while Voldy was gone.

He may be willing to join the Protection Program.

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Weeny Owl - Jan 12, 2006 11:29 am (#12 of 75)

I can easily see Lucius pretending to have a change of heart. He told Draco in CoS that it wouldn't be prudent to appear to be less than fond of Harry Potter.

I can see Lucius doing anything to save his own skin, even if it meant abandoning Narcissa and Draco.

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Choices - Jan 12, 2006 12:01 pm (#13 of 75)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Shadow - "We definitely must agree to disagree regarding the "Zebras"."

OK, I concede that zebras not changing their stripes is not a hard and fast rule - they can change if they really want to change. But, I don't think Bella wants to change at all. I think she is one zebra whose stripes will remain just the same.

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zelmia - Jan 12, 2006 1:45 pm (#14 of 75)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Perhaps if you look at the "zebra" metaphor in another way. Certainly any striped animal is unable to "change its stripes". Outwardly, such a creature will always appear to be the same. Therefore the only way to convince anyone of wanting redemption is through action.
Snape is a great example. If anyone is to be convinced of his true innocence regarding Dumbledore's death his actions must clearly reflect that.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 12, 2006 7:08 pm (#15 of 75)

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I absolutely agree, zelmia, that actions speak louder than words. And, thanks, Weeny Owl, for pointing out that Lucius isn't in the slammer for life and might just put his time in Azkaban for trespassing, etc., then be back in his mansion. I wonder if Narcissa and Draco will be there waiting for him, or...

As far as literary/creative characters go, I'd just rather see Bellatrix face off with Vold than with Harry or Snape. It would be awesome. I don't think Narcissa would do it, she'd just slip away silently and gracefully into the fold of Wizard Protection. Who knows, maybe the third sister, Andromeda, will appear and face-off with Vold.

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Solitaire - Jan 14, 2006 2:21 am (#16 of 75)

Certainly any striped animal is unable to "change its stripes". Outwardly, such a creature will always appear to be the same.

Except that, in the Wizarding World, people are able to--and frequently do--change their outward appearances. Lupin must change monthly, into either a wolf or a werewolf. Consider Metamorphmagi (Tonks) and Animagi (the Marauders, Rita, and McGonagall, that we know about), who can change at will. Even those who use the Polyjuice Potion (Harry, Ron, Barty Jr.) are able to appear to be someone else temporarily. Alas ... for good or for bad, the people inside are still the same and will eventually show their "stripes."

Lucius and some of the DEs were apparently able to conceal their "stripes" for many years ... but eventually they returned to their true selves. Will Snape be the one who has continued to "look" the same throughout the years ... but ultimately changes inside? Maybe ...

Solitaire

Edit: You know, in some ways, Snape is a bit like the Mirror of Erised ... to DEs he is a DE, to Dumbledore and the Order he is one of them. I suppose people see what they want or expect to see in him. Just a thought ...

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jan 14, 2006 5:28 am (#17 of 75)

Or what they want to see in Snape. Some of us on the forum see the evidence for his guilt, others see the evidence for his innocence. Some of the characters see his nature as a DE, others see his role as a member of the Order.

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Solitaire - Jan 14, 2006 11:28 am (#18 of 75)

Yes, that is what I meant, Phelim. So much of Snape's behavior can be interpreted in different ways, depending on the "view" of the person who is examining it. Those who see him as loyal to Voldemort view his behavior as perfectly understandable--he is acting a role with them. Those who see him as loyal to the Order view his behavior with regard to the DEs and Voldemort as simply "pretending" to be a DE. As with the Mirror of Erised, the viewer sees what he wants to see ... because Snape has allowed him to do so.

In the end, I wonder if Snape is really out for himself--a supporter of neither Voldemort nor the Order, but a true Slytherin to the end. By always framing his actions so that they can be interpreted in more than one way, he allows himself plenty of "wiggle room" when it comes to explanations ... as we saw with Bella and Narcissa.

Solitaire

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 14, 2006 3:10 pm (#19 of 75)

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Solitaire, I like what you said about Snape being what others want him to be. I think that's why we are all so focused on him here at the forum. For me, I know I'm attracted to the "darker" characters because they help me reconcile those characteristics within myself...

It is my hope that Slughorn and Snape will be the catalysts to help rebalance the house of Slytherin thereby assisting Harry to balance the four houses, the school, the WW, and finally the WW/muggle world. The only other Slytherin character I think may come to the "right side" is Blaise Zabini.

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Rosariana - Jan 14, 2006 6:31 pm (#20 of 75)

"In the end, I wonder if Snape is really out for himself--a supporter of neither Voldemort nor the Order, but a true Slytherin to the end." - Solitaire.

I can see this being the case. IMO it fits his actions the best. With Voldemort leading the "baddies," Dumbledore leading the "goodies," and Snape implicitly trusted by both of them, he is in quite a powerful position. Not doing too bad for himself.

But now that he killed Dumbledore and lost the trust of the Order his life will be much harder. I can't wait to find out what tasks Voldemort has in store for him, and how he will redeem himself.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 14, 2006 9:50 pm (#21 of 75)

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I was just on the Umbridge thread and am really thinking she's ripe for the Vold picking. Maybe not a full fledged DE but her love of torture is surely being wasted at the MoM, she may be wanting a little more power and recognition and not getting it from Scrimgeour, so perhaps a little persuasion from someone she admires could get her to jump the fence. Who would be up for the job? I wonder if Vold himself would sweet talk her. Certainly she'd have some information about the MoM that he'd be interested in... and she obviously enjoys hurting people.

PS - do we know which house Umbridge was in at Hogwarts? If she was Ravenclaw, could there be a horcrux clue lurking around?

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zelmia - Jan 15, 2006 12:21 am (#22 of 75)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
She doesn't strike me as being particularly bright.

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Choices - Jan 15, 2006 9:51 am (#23 of 75)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I can't imagine her anywhere but Slytherin.

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Diagon Nilly - Jan 15, 2006 12:53 pm (#24 of 75)

I can see her being a Hufflepuff, actually. She's loyal to the Minsitry, but very misguided in her bureaucratical execution. And yes, she's not too bright.

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Choices - Jan 15, 2006 2:19 pm (#25 of 75)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
But don't you think she is out to advance herself? She manipulates Fudge for her own ends - she wants power. I think she is bright enough to know how to get what she wants. As Voldemort said, "There is only power... and those too weak to seek it." Umbridge knows how to seek it.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 15, 2006 3:31 pm (#26 of 75)

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I don't see her as being a Slytherin because she is so unaware of her manipulative tendencies, as well as her extreme aversion to the dark arts. I could be totally wrong, but to me Slytherins are comfortable with their "resourcefulness" to put it politely.

I don't see her in Hufflepuff because they are focused on friendships and nurturing people regardless of status, affiliation, etc. (I'm going by the sorting hat verse as well as what we know of Cedric being such a great friend). Of course there are naughty Hufflepuffs, like Zacharias, from what we've seen of him.

That leaves Gryffindor and Ravenclaw. I can see her in Ravenclaw because I do think she values book-smarts or at least structure, academia and more importantly, rules to the extreme. Detail oriented, or "anal" I guess would be an adjective here, no offense to those who took sorting hat questionnaire and are in Ravenclaw...

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Mediwitch - Jan 15, 2006 6:55 pm (#27 of 75)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Hmm...I rather think of her as a Slytherin, too. Doesn't one of the Sorting Hat's songs say something about "those cunning folk will use any means to achieve their ends" (not an exact quote)? Umbridge definitely fits that description - she was even willing to use an Unforgiveable Curse to get the information she wanted out of Harry; she set the Dementors on him while he was still in Little Whinging; she manipulated Hagrid during her first observation to make him look incompetent; etc. etc. etc.

I don't think she is intelligent enought to be a Ravenclaw - she wasn't even smart enough to realize that mouthing off to centaurs was a bad idea!

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Aimee Shawn - Jan 15, 2006 8:07 pm (#28 of 75)

I think Umbridge is the epitome of "I know best" syndrome. She sees things in black or white-according to her view of the universe. Others are not accorded any slack if they don't agree with her. She is concerned with her point of view, her ideas of how things should be accomplished, her ideas of what is best for everyone. Harry was unstable therefore she sent dementors to do away with him. She didn't like what Harry said so she had him do lines with his own blood, she didn't believe in Seeing so Trelawney was fired. The list is long. She is so single-minded I doubt she would be open to Death Eaters. Unless she felt LV was going to "win" and she wanted to align herself to the winner. She cares about advancing her ideas and making herself seem more important. She may well be smart but her ambition will overrule her brain. She's out for herself.

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Rosariana - Jan 15, 2006 10:55 pm (#29 of 75)

I can't think of anyone changing loyalties on purpose (other than Snape, because everyone in the WW thinks he is loyal to Voldemort) but I could see someone foolish being used against his/her own side. I am thinking Bagman-style -- he passed information to Rookwood before he knew he was a Death Eater.

Who do we know who might unwittingly harm the Order and/or help Voldemort? Percy must know a lot of the ministry's inside plans as the junior assistant to the minister. Could he slip-up to someone he doesn't know is loyal to Voldemort? (Do we know of any Death Eaters who are still posing as good citizens? Forgive me, I haven't kept track of what happened to the likes of Macnair, etc.)

Can anyone think of anyone else who could pull a Bagman by mistake?

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Solitaire - Jan 16, 2006 12:21 am (#30 of 75)

She doesn't strike me as being particularly bright.

I tend to agree with this, Zelmia. She seems unimaginative, to me. Still, even dull, unimaginative people could probably be of use to Voldemort ... particularly if they have Umbridge's sadistic proclivities.

I don't see her as being a Slytherin because she is so unaware of her manipulative tendencies, as well as her extreme aversion to the dark arts.

Wow! I see her as incredibly manipulative and quite aware of what she is doing. I do not see her as averse to the Dark Arts at all, as she shows us by her willingness to Crucio Harry in OotP. I do not think she is qualified to teach them, and I certainly do not think she wanted the kids to know how to do them. Those, I believe, are her real reasons for not wanting the kids to have practical experience.

Solitaire

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 16, 2006 1:09 am (#31 of 75)

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Solitaire, I guess we misunderstand eachother. I, too, see Umbridge as incredibly manipulative. However, I don't think she is aware of it. Everything she did at Hogwarts was, in her eyes, "good". I also do not see her as consciously in favor of the Dark Arts. She wouldn't allow them to be remotely used in her classroom, to me, because she is so *unaware* of her repressed rage. If we have a psychology person in the house, please feel free to chime in. There is a Huge difference between Umbridge and Bellatrix. There is a Huge difference between those that insist they are against something and are actually promoting it -via their denial- and those that are actually in it. That, to me, is where Umbridge is not a Slytherin and, actually, is more dangerous.

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Soul Search - Jan 16, 2006 9:35 am (#32 of 75)

How about an organization changing its heart/mind?

We have had six books showing the Ministry of Magic as an incompetent bureaucracy. What if the MoM had a sudden turnaround, and really supported Harry?

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Weeny Owl - Jan 16, 2006 12:17 pm (#33 of 75)

she didn't believe in Seeing so Trelawney was fired.

I never thought that was her reason for firing Trelawney. I always thought it was one of Lucius Malfoy's ideas and he persuaded her to do it because Voldemort was so determined to hear the prophecy.

I also think she's fully aware of how manipulative she is because being manipulative doesn't always have to be a bad thing. Parents manipulate their toddlers into eating (the spoon being a zooming airplane, for instance), and if she felt that she was doing what was best for the Wizarding World and herself, she would be quite happy to use her skills at manipulation. She didn't get where she was as Undersecretary to the Minister of Magic on her looks or talents, I wouldn't think.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 16, 2006 1:06 pm (#34 of 75)

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Soul Search, I'd love to see that happen, and I suppose it would occur either with the "peons" rising up and confronting Scrimgeour to take a more supportive role, or perhaps Scrimgeour himself taking the initiative. No one at MoM has a clue what Harry needs to do, and must remain clueless, but it would be nice to have the political/social machine behind Harry. I often wonder what Scrimgeour will turn out to be in book 7. Those yellow eyes and lion-like mane have me guessing he's tied in to Gryffindor...

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Steve Newton - Jan 16, 2006 2:49 pm (#35 of 75)

Librarian
I thought that it was pretty clear that Trelawney was fired because she had been hired by Dumbledore and was loyal to him. Rooting out Dumbledore supporters seems to have been her main mission while at Hogwarts. The fact that Trelawney seems to be totally incompetent as a teacher was just a bonus.

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Choices - Jan 16, 2006 6:51 pm (#36 of 75)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm with you Steve. I think she was trying to get rid of Dumbledore supporters, any unusual (werewolf/Giant) teachers, any she thought to be poor teachers, and those she thought were not favorable to the MOM. Trelawney was a poor teacher, rather unstable emotionally and something of a drinker. She was definitely out. McGonagall was pretty much untouchable, an excellent teacher, even though she was a big Dumbledore person. Snape, an adequate teacher, was not openly on Dumbledore's side, so he was pretty safe. Also, Umbridge knew he was a friend of Lucius Malfoy's. Hagrid, as part Giant, was definitely marked for expulsion, he's not such a good teacher, plus he is a big (literally) Dumbledore supporter.

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Solitaire - Jan 17, 2006 12:33 am (#37 of 75)

I also think she's fully aware of how manipulative she is because being manipulative doesn't always have to be a bad thing

I fully agree with Weeny here ... although I am surprised that she thinks Umbridge didn't get her job because of her looks. **just kidding, Weeny! LOL** Umbridge's willingness to use Veritaserum on Harry and her sending the Dementors into Little Whinging show that she is manipulative and proud of it.

I am also in accordance with Steve and Choices about Trelawney et al.

Solitaire

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Honour - Jan 17, 2006 2:52 am (#38 of 75)

So, do you think Dolorus was under an imperio curse? or is she just plain nasty? I can't really make up my mind yet ...

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Weeny Owl - Jan 17, 2006 10:58 am (#39 of 75)

She's just plain nasty. I think Sirius would have heard some rumors in Azkaban if she were a Death Eater, and while it's possible that she's under the Imperius Curse, she was a bit too enthusiastic about the things she was doing.

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Choices - Jan 17, 2006 11:10 am (#40 of 75)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree Weeny - she's just plain nasty!! While she may not be a card carrying Death Eater, I think what she does definitely helps that side.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 17, 2006 5:42 pm (#41 of 75)

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Choices wrote - "I think what she does definitely helps that side."

This is basically my point about Umbridge. She considers herself, and everything she does, to be against and in opposition to the "evil forces". However, her obliviousness/denial of her actions being evil leads her to "help that side". If you asked her, I'm sure she'd *truthfully* say that she despises evil. This is different than Bellatrix who at least is calling a spade a spade, she'd say yeah, I'm evil, so what?

That being said, I could see Umbridge "sweet-talked" by Lucius or another DE to provide MoM information or something to that effect. She would figure out a way to see her actions being "good", like she thought torturing the students would be for their own good.

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Rosariana - Jan 17, 2006 7:45 pm (#42 of 75)

How about an organization changing its heart/mind?

We have had six books showing the Ministry of Magic as an incompetent bureaucracy. What if the MoM had a sudden turnaround, and really supported Harry? -Soul Search

The Ministry right now doesn't not support Harry... it seems to me like they do and they really buy into the "Chosen One" propoganda. They support Harry in that he is rumoured to be the one to defeat Voldemort. As Voldemort is their biggest problem, they support anyone who can get rid of him. The problem with the Ministry is that they want Harry to show support of them in return, just so they can look like they are doing something in the eyes of the public. They want Harry as a "poster boy." Harry has a problem with them only wanting to look like they are doing something to stop Voldemort - such as false arrests, etc -- he wants no part of it.

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Soul Search - Jan 18, 2006 8:44 am (#43 of 75)

Rosariana,

While the ministry isn't out to discredit Harry any more, I don't quite see any "real support" for him either. Most I can see is general things like having aurors (Tonks) helping to guard Hogwarts, and thereby, Harry, and providing protections for the Burrow when Harry was there. All suggested by Dumbledore, no doubt.

I am not sure just what Harry-specific "support" the ministry could provide. Harry's hunt for horcruxes has to be conducted in the greatest of secrecy so Voldemort doesn't get any hints. And, it is Harry that must defeat Voldemort; don't think the ministry can help much.

Even with a change of heart, I don't see much that the ministry can do.

Although, there was that long romp through the department of mysteries in OotP. Too many pages devoted to it to be just superfluous action. Must be something there Harry needs.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 18, 2006 2:22 pm (#44 of 75)

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I don't think "the establishment" is usually involved in this type of quest in stories. If the MoM helps out, I agree it will be folks already involved with the Order or some fringe character we've been vaguely introduced to, like the guy sharing Arthur's office or someone from the elevator ride with Arthur and Harry.

It is far too secret a mission to have the entire organization standing by Harry as he does his thing. But somehow I do feel Scrimgeour will see the light in the end and stop worrying about what the WW thinks, helping Harry perhaps in a DD sort of way...?

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Solitaire - Jan 18, 2006 10:30 pm (#45 of 75)

I vote just plain nasty for Umbridge! As Choices and Shadow point out, even if she is not officially on Voldemort's side, her actions certainly helped him.

Solitaire

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 19, 2006 7:05 pm (#46 of 75)

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It almost seems like the MoM will need to completely collapse and be reinvented in our story. If Scrimgeour/WW and the "other Prime Minister"/Muggle World continue to have parallel problems, as we anticipate will happen, it could be utter chaos for a while in our last installment.

With the dementors breeding so much, I wonder if it will have an effect on people's mental health and, if so, will more people be subject to turning "dark"? After all, despair and criminal behavior are somewhat linked...

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Madame Librarian - Feb 4, 2006 10:43 am (#47 of 75)

Before Lucius was imprisoned, he was a source of information to the DEs about the goings-on at the MoM. He also had enough power to sway the policies of many MoM departments. In short, he was a spy who had an "advisory" role. Well, he's not a factor now, at least it seems so, but does anyone think that the MoM might still be riddled with agents who report to the DE organization? Maybe those days are over now that Lucius has been discredited, but who knows? Perhaps some of those pro-Voldie folks have had second thoughts to save their own skins after seeing how Lucius was sent to the Big A despite his money, family name, and influence. Remember the Slytherin trait of looking out for number one above all else? Would the MoM insiders who were put in place due to their Slyth background (with a recommendation for their good friend Malfoy) have a very sincere "change of heart?"

Any thoughts?

Ciao. Barb

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 4, 2006 4:18 pm (#48 of 75)

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Madame Librarian, do you recall what the occupations are of various DE's such as Nott? Don't have books but think he may be a candidate for what you're insinuating. Just as Draco was the "leader" of Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, it may be their fathers seeing "leader" Lucius in Azkaban will change these guys's minds.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 4, 2006 5:02 pm (#49 of 75)

MAMS813, the only Death Eaters whose positions at the Ministry were mentioned at all were Rookwood's and Macnair's.

Rookwood worked in the DoM untill his first capture after the trial of Karakoff.

MacNair was originially cleared of being a DE and went to wortk for the Committee on the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures as an executioner.

Malfoy's position in the ministry has never been identified.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 4, 2006 5:32 pm (#50 of 75)

Malfoy's was one of influence rather than an actual position. He was on the Board of Directors for Hogwarts, I think, and though that was not governed by the MoM until later, I'm sure there was tons of crossover involvement.

Ciao. Barb
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Change of heart Change your mind (Post 51 to 75)

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Solitaire - Feb 5, 2006 12:20 am (#51 of 75)
Was Malfoy still on the Board in OotP? I wondered, after the business with the threats he made in CoS.

Solitaire

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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 5, 2006 10:07 am (#52 of 75)

Solitaire, Lucius Malfoy was removed from the Board of Governors of Hogwarts in CoS chapter eighteen.

Hogwarts was back to normal with only a few small differences--Defense Against Dark Arts classes were cancelled("but we've had plenty of practice at that anyway," Ron told a disgruntled Hermione) and Lucius Malfoy had been sacked as a school governor, pages 461-462 of the large print edition of CoS published by Thorndike Press.

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Solitaire - Feb 5, 2006 12:31 pm (#53 of 75)

Thanks, Nathan. That makes Lucius's reasons for being at the MoM so often even more questionable ... or so it appears to me. I guess the possibility of Fudge being under the Imperius Curse has been squelched. Still, Lucius surely used his money and influence as leverage to get things done his way. Odd that Fudge was not suspicious of him after the CoS business, isn't it?

Solitaire

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ex-FAHgeek - Feb 5, 2006 2:08 pm (#54 of 75)

Edited by Feb 5, 2006 1:10 pm
---quote--- Odd that Fudge was not suspicious of him after the CoS business, isn't it? ---end quote---

At the time, however, the Ministry had no authority at Hogwarts: Fudge had to get permission from the Governors just to go and arrest Hagrid (he directly mentions having been in contact with them.) Likewise, when he tried to stop Dumbledore from being sacked, Lucius overruled him through the authority given him by the Board.

However, along that final line, throughout the entire conversation Lucius always used "we" rather than pointing out that it was his encouragement to get Dumbledore fired. It would certainly be easy to cover-up: sure, he had supported the removal of Dumbledore, but after four attacks, he was just losing faith, and his subsequent removal was merely the consequence of that mistake in judgment. And then he'd donate something expensive to St. Mungo's and everything would be fine.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Lucius had brought up Fudge's earlier disagreements with the board over the summer between GoF and OotP in order to encourage his hostile takeover. "Remember, Minister, when you wanted to have a say in the leadership of the school a few years ago and the Board overruled you? Now you have the chance to gain more authority..."

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 5, 2006 5:45 pm (#55 of 75)

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I would be surprised if in book 7 the MoM didn't investigate or at least question DE's employed there. It seems like a valid request, and if the DE in question didn't cooperate, i.e. prove he/she was no longer in alliance with Vold, they'd be shown the door. Not be arrested or anything, but simpy let go to find employment elsewhere. I'm not one to support intrusion on privacy but if a person goes through the trouble to get a Dark Mark, they'd be a fool to think it's not going to imply something...

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Weeny Owl - Feb 6, 2006 12:22 am (#56 of 75)

They would first have to determine who was a Death Eater. They would have to check everyone for a Dark Mark.

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Solitaire - Feb 6, 2006 12:43 am (#57 of 75)

Harry gave some information at the end of GoF--which was ridiculed and denied by Fudge. Given more recent events, perhaps Fudge should toss that memory into a Pensieve and see if he can pick up any further clues from it! Also, why can't someone from the MoM go out to Azkaban and have a little chat with the DEs who are incarcerated there? Surely someone would be willing to talk in exchange for a witness protection program. Just a thought ...

Solitaire

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 6, 2006 5:06 pm (#58 of 75)

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As I said, I don't like intrusion on privacy so it would be a fine line with MoM questioning people. Yes, Weeny Owl, they would in fact be asking people to roll up their sleeves and I'm not sure if this is something the WW would deem appropriate. Solitaire, I agree they could go to Azkaban and see if anyone wants to make a deal. But I suppose ultimately the "showdown" is between Voldemort and Harry so no matter what, the factions will be at odds until those two have The Confrontation. I just keep thinking about chapter one of HBP and wondering how bad it's going to get with explosions, "natural" disasters, as well as mist/dementors effects on Muggle/WW population. I bet people like Hermione's parents would want to help in any way they could.

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Choices - Feb 6, 2006 7:20 pm (#59 of 75)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm not at all sure the MOM would care that DE's are working there. After all, they embraced Lucius Malfoy (at least Fudge did) with open arms and gladly took his generous contributions. I doubt they cared about his DE activities as long as his money kept flowing to certain "worthy causes" like the MOM, St. Mungo's Hospital, Fudge's pockets....etc.

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Honour - Feb 6, 2006 11:24 pm (#60 of 75)

Shadow I had the very same thoughts concerning the WW and the Muggle Worlds reflecting each other. I even thought that Voldermort would even make strategic attacks on the Muggle world to distract the MOM, I thought that this was probably one of the reasons why Shaklebolt was placed with the PM.

I also thought it was interesting that a muggle Member of Parliament was under the influence of what looked like a imperius curse. I wondered if this politician was actually a muggle? or a Wizard living in the muggle world? and why was he being coerced?

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Solitaire - Feb 7, 2006 12:16 pm (#61 of 75)

I am hoping we discover a Malfoy-St. Mungo's connection in the final book ... one, perhaps, that will provide a ray of hope for the Longbottoms' eventual return to a semblance of sanity.

Voldemort did attack the Muggle world. Didn't some bridge collapse? And wasn't there a tornado somewhere in England? I believe it will get a lot worse--in both the Muggle and magical worlds--before it gets better. Sirius, Amelia Bones, Emmaline Vance, and Dumbledore are casualties of war. I think we will see a lot more in Book 7. I think we will lose some kids.

Solitaire

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Madame Librarian - Feb 7, 2006 12:50 pm (#62 of 75)

Chances are good that there are DEs working at the MoM. Some are there by choice and conviction, some are imperio-ed or have been blackmailed into playing Voldemort's game. Chances are also good that the attempts the MoM might make at investigating staff at the MoM in order to root out the traitors (if that's what the MoM considers them), is far less of a fear factor to these people. They perceive the largest threat to their lives and their families' lives as what Voldemort would do. I don't think the possibility of trial and an Azkaban or simple expulsion from their job, though horrible to contemplate, holds a candle to what Voldemort may have threatened.

Also, the MoM and the Wizarding World are not a complete reflection of the Muggle world, so I do not assume that things like First Amendment rights and invasion of privacy issues bothers the MoM that much (just think of how much the MoM spies on poor Harry!). It's been mentioned a lot how old fashioned (medieval even) some of the customs and practices strike us, and I'd be surprised if the WW had anything terribly progressive going on in the legal system.

Ciao. Barb

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 7, 2006 4:07 pm (#63 of 75)

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I suppose a lot of what happens with DE's in MoM depends upon Scrimgeour. I feel conflicted about him in that, yes, he's trying to manipulate Harry to make himself look good but I'm not ready to write him off just yet as a "bad guy". He seems to have been quite a warrior in his time, strong and opinionated, and the "lion-like" hair description JKR uses leans towards courage if not Gryffindor stock. So if he has a change of heart in book 7, I could easily see him having every single MoM employee rolling up their sleeves, DE's being shown the door, and things getting stepped up a notch. Especially if the mist/explosions/disasters keep happening. Not to mention the reaction that DD was killed by a DE posing as a "good guy".

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Choices - Feb 7, 2006 7:56 pm (#64 of 75)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Shadow, I agree with you. On another thread we were discussing the alchemical processes and the final process is the Rubedo or red process. I have always thought it was going to mean that Hagrid dies or is injured or plays a big role in the final book as part of this red process since his first name means red. But, recently someone pointed out that Rufus (Scrimgeour) also means red. So, it just could mean Rufus will play a major role in book 7 instead of Hagrid....or maybe it will be both of them.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 8, 2006 5:58 pm (#65 of 75)

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Thanks, Choices, for pointing out Scrimgeour's first name. That is quite interesting indeed. Now I am really leaning toward his helping Harry in book 7. I liked the way he handled the "other" Prime Minister in chapter one. Yes he was abrupt and perhaps a bit condescending, but he just burst onto the scene with things very orchestrated -like Kingsley planted in the office. I think he'll come around and respect the fact that Harry isn't going to be manipulated, pushed around, or bribed with flattery. It seems that Rufus couldn't respect anyone like that, least of all the Chosen One.

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ex-FAHgeek - Feb 10, 2006 9:41 am (#66 of 75)

---quote--- Yes he was abrupt and perhaps a bit condescending, but he just burst onto the scene with things very orchestrated -like Kingsley planted in the office. ---end quote---

That may be one of his flaws in his approach with Harry: he expects to be able to orchestrate everything, and he expects that Harry will respond well to the chance to have everything orchestrated on his behalf.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 10, 2006 4:40 pm (#67 of 75)

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True, he does seem accustomed to being in charge. But he also strikes me as the type to respect someone who can't be told what to do, even if it is inconvenient politically. There's also the added facet of Percy. I'm not giving up on him yet either, and with Percy at Scrimgeour's side we could see a MoM turnaround in the eleventh hour as they say.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 11, 2006 3:48 pm (#68 of 75)

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I found a couple of interesting tidbits, which were probably already mentioned on other threads, but have piqued my interest--



In Draco's Detour chapter, when Narcissa and Draco are in the robe shop. Madam Malkin says to Draco, "Now, dear, your mother's quite right, none of us is supposed to go wandering around on our own any more, it's nothing to do with being a child-".

I wonder about Narcissa's reason for being concerned for her son's safety. After all, most people don't want to go wandering alone because a DE could attack. But why would Narcissa be afraid that Draco would be attacked by a DE? Is she already seeing how vulnerable she and Draco are? This may indicate her willingness to change "sides" in book 7.


Regarding Zacharias Smith, whom I've felt is connected to DE's somehow and wrote about it on Hepzibah's thread... this quote seems to support that speculation. Ginny says in Slug Club chapter, "He saw me hex Zacharias Smith, you remember that idiot from Hufflepuff who was in the DA? He kept on and on asking about what happened at the Ministry and in the end he annoyed me so much I hexed him- ".

His pestering Ginny, insisting to know more about what happened at the MoM, could be to get info for his father or other relation in DE's.


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Weeny Owl - Feb 12, 2006 12:28 pm (#69 of 75)

Narcissa could have a lot of reasons for going with Draco.

With Lucius in prison, she's alone and might want to make things seem as normal as possible, assuming they always got Draco's school supplies as a family.

With Lucius in prison, she might be concerned that people who detest Death Eaters might take their frustrations out on the son of one.

With Lucius in prison, she might be concerned that a rogue Death Eater might want to punish the family for Lucius's mistakes.

With Voldemort annoyed at Lucius, and with her knowing Draco has a task to perform, she might want to spend more time with him because she might not know how much time any of them have left to live.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 12, 2006 2:22 pm (#70 of 75)

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I'm not questioning her "going with" Draco, I'm wondering about why she feels vulnerable enough to make sure he didn't wander off alone. So, yes, I think your options 2 and 3 above seem to me quite likely and if Lucius isn't out of prison in book 7, will she feel vulnerable enough that -if Draco tells her about DD's offer- she'll take it.

I feel that Narcissa and Petunia are somewhat similar in how JKR portrays them -- not aggressively antagonistic but going along with the "norm" in order to be secure. I noticed in Draco's Detour that yes, she agreed with Draco's cutting remarks about Mudbloods, etc., but probably wouldn't have verbally abused a Muggle if on her own. These types of personalities I feel are more inclined to "change sides".

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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 14, 2006 10:27 am (#71 of 75)

I think Zacharias Smith is related to the Smith who had the Hufflepuff cup, and that he winds up helping with that. I know we can't prove he's related, but Smith's keen interest in what went on at the DoM may not just be annoying curiosity. He may have been trying to get Ginny's attention and by extension, Harry's for a reason.

Narcissa is a possible crossover, too. She might decide her son has gotten in over his head and want him out.

I think Slughorn is really evil. If he wasn't a death eater, he was in with them, because when Dumbledore tells him he forgot to put the dark mark over the house, Slughorn says he didn't have time. He didn't say he didn't know how. So...bingo! Death Eater! Maybe not an active one, but he was with them at some point.

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haymoni - Feb 14, 2006 2:15 pm (#72 of 75)

Seems to me all you have to do is be a half-way talented wizard and say "Mors Morde" - not too difficult.

I do think it will be interesting to see if Harry has to swallow his pride and talk to Zacharias.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 14, 2006 3:55 pm (#73 of 75)

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Die Zimtzicke, I'm convinced he's Smith/Hufflepuff descendent but I'm equally convinced that he's not keen on helping Harry. Not only the scene I posted earlier about Ginny hexing him, but while commentating the Quidditch game he clearly has animosity towards Harry and Gryffindor in general. If he does end up aiding Harry in locating the Hufflepuff cup, I think they'll be some serious drama beforehand.

Regarding Slughorn, I don't think knowing how to conjure a Dark Mark makes you a DE. DD said it to him so nonchalantly that it seems most seasoned wizards could do it but wouldn't. If anything, I see Slughorn as one of the only people besides Snape who knows of DD's covert plans.

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Magic Words - Mar 13, 2006 11:31 am (#74 of 75)

I think Slughorn has to be good, simply because we have yet to see a Slytherin who turns out to be a decent person, and I don't think JKR intends for a quarter of Hogwarts to be evil - or at least extremely nasty - by nature. Why keep it around, in that case?

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TheSaint - Mar 14, 2006 5:20 am (#75 of 75)

Yin-Yang...in order for good to exist, evil must also. (just a guess)
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