Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore

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Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore

Post  Elanor on Wed May 25, 2011 8:27 am

Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

João Paulo Costa - Aug 25, 2005 3:34 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 7, 2006 1:06 am
Consequences of Dumbledore's Death:

Being a powerfull and influencial wizard, the death of Dumbledore must cause deep changes in the series. This is a thread to discuss such consequences. I can think of the following:

- Order of the Pheonix: Dumbledore was the leader and the secret keeper: now that he is gone, who will be in charge? "Mad-eye" Moody, Macgonagal or Kingsley Shacklebolt are candidates I can think of;

- Personal possessions: what would happen to Dumbledore's personal possessions? What and where are they? We do not know whether he has made a will. Does his brother enherits everything? Does he have more family?

- Ministry of Magic: even if Dumbledore was not colaborating with the ministry, his death will probably affect the way they work. Will they become more ruthless? Will they try to interfere in Hogwarts again?...

- Hogwarts school: Who will be the new Headmaster? How is the process if the current one is murdered? Will Macgonangal be naturally elected Headmistress? Can the painting of Dumbledore help the new director?

- Wizarding world in general - just how much influence and prestige had Dumbledore in the wizarding society? How will people react?

- Lord Voldemort - now that Dumbledore's dead, how will LV react, and what can he do/not do, that he could not do before? Will he come out more in the open?

- Harry Potter - How will Harry feel, after the shock wears out? We know what he proposes to do, but how different will he be in the process of doing it?

I can't wait for your commentaries...

Joao Costa
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Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Wed May 25, 2011 8:28 am

Finn BV - Aug 25, 2005 4:04 pm (#1 of 122)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Joao, I think you could add that a mentor is lost, most especially in Harry.

We know what he proposes to do, but how different will he be in the process of doing it?

Or, will he even do the correct tasks? Help the right people? Dumbledore always advised him on his important decisions.

Also, Snape is now believed to be a murderer and on the Dark side.

I am curious, what exactly would you like to hear, additions to the consequences of the death of Dumbledore or… what?

By the way, don't worry about the "(major character)" anymore, as it does so blatantly state: "Attention! Spoilers now on Main Page!" so anybody who ventured to this thread would already be at risk of spoilers.

Very thorough list, by the way.

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João Paulo Costa - Aug 25, 2005 6:36 pm (#2 of 122)

Finn_BV said: "I am curious, what exactly would you like to hear, additions to the consequences of the death of Dumbledore or… what?"

I am mainly searching for was the members' ideas regarding how the different persons and institutions will react now that Dumbledore is gone, and gone by having been murdered. The institutions and groups in which he participated (indeed, in which he was a key figure!) will have to carry on their work without him - the discussion on HOW will they do that, and what consequences the absense of DD does, is theme of this thread.

Please feel free to add and discuss any more topics to the list above. I only put the (for me) most obvious.

Choices said: "This discussion should probably go under the already established "Albus Dumbledore" thread."

... and you might be right. I'll leave that decision to the moderator.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 25, 2005 7:40 pm (#3 of 122)

In light of the deaths of Albus Dumbledore and Amelia Bones that a power vacuum now exists within uppermost echelons of the Wizengamot The deaths of Albus and Amelia raised two questions in my mind. First, what effect their murders will have on the Wizengamot as a body? Second, who will fill the void within the leadership of the Wizengamot left by the deaths of Albus and Amelia?

On another related topic how will the International Confederation of wizards be affected by the death of Dumbledore because, his death deprived the organization of its Supreme Mugwump?

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Madame Librarian - Aug 25, 2005 8:27 pm (#4 of 122)

Another unknown consequence of DD's death is the effect on Hogwarts. Of course, the school will be devastated with the leader's loss, but will it ever be the same (not really) or manage to attain a new state of equalibirum under new leadership? Will it flounder and become a hollow shadow of its former greatness even after the war resolves (with a victory for the good guys, I hope)?

I'm not just talking about the people at Hogwarts--students and staff. No, I'm referring to the school as almost a living organism trying to function without its head and heart. Maybe, just maybe, a happy ending would include a big win against Voldemort and the DEs as well as a future slot for Harry as figurehead and de facto leader of Hogwarts. Unlikely, based on my gut feelings that Harry is not cut out to be a headmaster or even a desk jockey administrative type.

Ciao. Barb

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Dame Peverell - Aug 26, 2005 1:47 am (#5 of 122)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...
While we're at it, how about the consequences of Albus Dumbledore's death on the millions of us very real, very upset Muggles; some of whom will pass before the final chapter is revealed?

Two plus years is a mighty long time to leave devoted fans on tenderhooks. A lot can happen. It was a pretty rough thing to do; to kill off the most lovable character and then to make us wait so long for resolution and closure.

On behalf of us all:

Jo,
PLEASE hire a nanny and a maid and try to spend five hours a day, five days a week, writing.
Your fans are also your children now and we need you too.

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septentrion - Aug 26, 2005 2:51 am (#6 of 122)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I think there will be some mayhem in the WW ofr DD was very influential. Perhaps it was a good thing he hadn't been influential with the Minister anymore for it will allow the Minister to go on. Hogwarts will go on with some restrictions due to less students attending school but I think it will continue as normally as possible. The real mayhem will be for the order for DD had all information, took most of the decisions, people really relied on him, maybe too much, and they'll have from now on to rely on themselves. I hope DD has taken dispositions for the Order in case he would die. On the other hand, this mayhem may be beneficial for Harry : it could allow him to pursue his quest for the horcrux unnoticed while the others are struggling with their problems.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 26, 2005 9:37 am (#7 of 122)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
I hope the Ministry doesn't try to intervene (in an attempt to "keep Hogwarts safe" so parents would still send their children) by reinstating Umbridge! It's an awful thought, but didn't JKR say we'd be seeing her again?

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haymoni - Aug 26, 2005 10:21 am (#8 of 122)

I had hoped it would be under the hooves a few hundred Centaurs, not in the Headmaster's Office!

No - I think it's McGonagall. She hasn't ticked anybody at the Ministry off. They'll let her stay.

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irish flutterby - Aug 26, 2005 10:53 am (#9 of 122)

I'd really like to see Lupin take a dominant role in the Order. I think Mady-eye is too obsessive. Kingsley may still still be pseudo-undercover for the Order and may not want to completely reveal his full support of the Order. McGonagal is a good choice, but she is no Albus Dumbledore, and she'll have her hands full with the school (that is if the ministry doesn't interfere again).

I think the ministry learned it's lesson with Umbridge. Well...I HOPE the ministry learned it's lesson with Umbridge. Would they send Percy in to take over...or...um...assist the forthcoming Headmaster or Headmistress? I REALLY hope not.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 26, 2005 10:59 am (#10 of 122)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
Would they send Percy in to take over...or...um...assist the forthcoming Headmaster or Headmistress?

Well, Hogwarts could use a new DADA teacher (evil grin).

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T Brightwater - Aug 26, 2005 12:37 pm (#11 of 122)

I can't imagine Umbridge wanting to come back to Hogwarts, but it's fun imgining what sort of reception she'd get from Peeves, The Office, the Centaurs, Peeves, the rest of the staff, Fred and George's customers, Peeves...

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irish flutterby - Aug 26, 2005 12:45 pm (#12 of 122)

Can you imagine the number of portable bogs they'd find around the castle?

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T Brightwater - Aug 26, 2005 12:57 pm (#13 of 122)

Oooh, yes, and I'll bet there have already been improvements made in Weasley's Wildfire Whiz-Bangs.

Hey, there's a great job for Umbridge after Voldemort's defeat - tester for Fred and George!

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 27, 2005 2:54 am (#14 of 122)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Umbridge is a loose end that hasn't been hog-tied yet...

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Dame Peverell - Aug 27, 2005 5:37 am (#15 of 122)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...
Say, Cornelius Fudge is looking for a job these days!

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Abracapocus - Aug 28, 2005 8:48 pm (#16 of 122)

My patronus is a boggart
Umbridge is a loose end that hasn't been hog-tied yet...

TBE, that sounds like a Dr. Philism. You aren't from Texas are you?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 28, 2005 10:00 pm (#17 of 122)

If Umbridge had committed the abuse toward Harry she did in Texas, she would been hog tied and thrown into the State Penitentiary in Huntsville. As to the effectiveness of the aurors catching DE's they could use a lesson from the Texas Rangers.

I think the death of Dumbledore may be cause for the measures instituted under the leadership of Crouch Sr. to be reinstituted. I also, tend to think that there may be reorganizations of the Wizengamot, and the Aurors.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 29, 2005 10:54 am (#18 of 122)

Re the Wizenmagot - the new head of Magical Law Enforcement would have replaced Amelia Bones. But the question remains about who would replace Dumbledore.

As the statue jumped to oneside for McGonnagel I think it is safe to say that she is the rightful head and will remain so. This though then begs the question -who will teach transfiguration?

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RoseMorninStar - Aug 29, 2005 4:48 pm (#19 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Let's see, Hogwarts will need a new DADA teacher, a potions master, a Headmaster, or if McGonagal become headmistress, a new transfiguration teacher will be needed. (Wouldn't Rita Skeeter make a bizaarly funny transfiguration teacher?) That's not to mention that we don't know what ever became of Prof. Trelawney. She's a few cards short of a full tarot deck if you ask me...not to mention the cooking sherry clouding her 'inner eye'.

The Wizarding world is at war. Will Hogwarts even open next year?

Dumbledore speaks rather sincerley about being able to fake a death and hide anyone very well. Was that a hint? Where was Fawkes? I hope JKR stays VERY healthy so she can finish the last book as soon as possible!

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irish flutterby - Aug 29, 2005 5:41 pm (#20 of 122)

I was under the impression that Slughorn was still in for Potions. Was I wrong?

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RoseMorninStar - Aug 29, 2005 8:54 pm (#21 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
irish flutterby... for some reason I was under the impression that Horace Slughorn had agreed to come to Hogwarts for one year...but I cannot find it right now, so I don't know if I am mistaken. I will keep looking.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 30, 2005 12:39 am (#22 of 122)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...

The statue jumped aside because she was Deputy Headmistress.
The Board of Governors decides on DDs replacement, and will probably be influenced by the will of the Ministry of Magic.
One way or another you can bet your bottom dollar that Slugs will eventually be named Head. He has probably got more years of experience than McGonagall. He has terrific connections. He, despite his "let others have the glory" demeanor, loves his creature comforts and the status a position of such influence would bring.
Very extensive foreshadowing on this character for him to remain just the Potions Master.
Oh yes. Even if he isn't Lord Voldemort.
(or not)

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irish flutterby - Aug 30, 2005 4:24 pm (#23 of 122)

"The Board of Governors decides on DDs replacement, and will probably be influenced by the will of the Ministry of Magic."

At least Lucius isn't on the Board anymore. That's a good thing.

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Madame Librarian - Aug 30, 2005 5:57 pm (#24 of 122)

Think of all those house elves that work at Hogwarts. They're not really "owned" by a single person, are they? They belong to Hogwarts. Or did they belong to DD? Anyway, if DD is really dead and he owned them, what would happen? House elf relocation en masse? Would he have made provision in a will?

If DD is not dead but out of the picture indefinitely, and everyone else thinks he's dead, what then?

If Hogwarts is closed indefinitely, would they stay on and keep the minimum operations going?

Goofy thought: is this Hermione's big chance? Will she be the one to step in an guide those now rootless, homelss, ownerless elves to take charge of their own lives?

Will JKR even take on this relatively small bit of plotline?

Ciao. Barb

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T Brightwater - Aug 30, 2005 7:27 pm (#25 of 122)

It sounds like house-elves go with the building, so DD's death shouldn't cause problems there. Otherwise there'd be an upheaval every time there was a new Headmaster/mistress. However, I can't imagine what would happen to them if Hogwarts doesn't re-open. They probably go stir-crazy as it is over the summer when there's hardly anything to do. (And yes, I can see Hermione trying to convince them all to accept clothes...)

What I'd like to know is, who's the head of the Order now? Any ideas?

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 30, 2005 8:24 pm (#26 of 122)

I think McGonagall will be headmistress and head of the Order. She stepped into her role very quickly and efficiently. She was Dumbledore's trusted colleague and successor.

One consequence is the WW world will have to wake up and start fighting on their own. DD is no longer there to protect them. The Minister of Magic needs to quit worrying about appearances and get to work.

I think Dumbledore had his affairs in order. He knew he was getting older and weakening. LPO

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Herm oh ninny - Aug 30, 2005 10:23 pm (#27 of 122)

"Accio treats!"
In GOF, Dobby tells Harry that Dumbledore hired him and Winky. Dobby also said that he would be proud to keep his new master's secrets. So, since this seems to say that Dumbledore is both Dobby and Winky's master, what happens to them? Are they property to be left in his will, like Kreacher? Or, since they are free elves who were hired, are they now free to go and look for work elsewhere?

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T Brightwater - Aug 31, 2005 8:56 am (#28 of 122)

Good catch, Herm oh ninny. I don't think Dumbledore would consider them property. Certainly McGonagall wouldn't turn them out, so I expect Winky will stay; she hasn't anywhere else to go. However, Dobby might just attach himself to Harry permanently once H leaves the Dursleys.

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timrew - Aug 31, 2005 3:31 pm (#29 of 122)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I was really expecting book 6 to be the darkest yet - it wasn't.

So, the first bit of book 7 will probably be very dark indeed, with that old plonker, Scrimgeour ensconced as Headmaster of Hogwarts............or, God forbid, Percy!

I think JKR will go on to infer that the MOM is run by the biggest bunch of incompetents the world has ever seen; and all the talent that works there (like Arthur Weasley) is kept down at any price.

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Abracapocus - Aug 31, 2005 3:43 pm (#30 of 122)

My patronus is a boggart
I can't help but think that you may be right, Tim.

If I recall correctly, JKR has said that we know about or know all the important characters, so obviously it will be someone we know. As much as I would like to believe it, I think believing that McGonagall will he Headmistress could end up as fateful as thinking of Amelia Bones as Minister of Magic.

Yes, very dark indeed.

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irish flutterby - Aug 31, 2005 3:49 pm (#31 of 122)

Hey, Timrew. Don't let the man getcha down!

True "the man" at the ministry (the rulers, as it were. The ones in control for those not familiar with the phrase.) seems to be thick. But not all good guys get held back. Kingsley has done well for himself. And just look at how far Do-Do Umbridge has gone (sarcasm).

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Paulus Maximus - Aug 31, 2005 4:34 pm (#32 of 122)

I think JKR will go on to infer that the MOM is run by the biggest bunch of incompetents the world has ever seen; and all the talent that works there (like Arthur Weasley) is kept down at any price.

Perhaps.

But with Voldemort at large and Dumbledore dead, I don't think the world will have to endure the Minstry's incompetence for long...

Of course, they WILL have to endure something much worse...

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RoseMorninStar - Aug 31, 2005 5:48 pm (#33 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
timrew, JKR says she likes to mirror real life when it comes to wars and all...so the government is incompetent and all about power and cover-up. Is anyone really surprised??

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T Brightwater - Sep 1, 2005 2:20 pm (#34 of 122)

Nope. :-)

Anyway, does anyone think it possible that Arthur might take over leadership of the Order?

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timrew - Sep 1, 2005 3:04 pm (#35 of 122)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
T Brightwater:- Anyway, does anyone think it possible that Arthur might take over leadership of the Order?

I think that is a distinct possibility, TB. What Arthur fails to achieve in the Ministry (through no fault of his own), he will succeed in doing in The Order.

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irish flutterby - Sep 1, 2005 6:31 pm (#36 of 122)

What a fitting thing for Arthur. Unfortunately, that may lead to his demise.

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Snuffles - Sep 5, 2005 6:16 am (#37 of 122)

Olivia
Timrew, 2 posts and I haven't had to put my drink down once!!! , I make it a habit now not to drink or eat anything if I see your avatar!! Stop leading me into a false sense of security!

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 5, 2005 7:00 am (#38 of 122)


So, the first bit of book 7 will probably be very dark indeed, with that old plonker, Scrimgeour ensconced as Headmaster of Hogwarts............or, God forbid, Percy!

I don't think so. Hogwarts has already seen the worst possible Headmistress. It's impossible to top Umbridge. Percy as headmaster would be a god's gift compared to Dolly. At least he doesn't have any sadistic tendencies. Besides, with Harry not going to school anymore, I don't think there's much sense for Jo to make the Ministry causing problems for Hogwarts again.

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Detail Seeker - Sep 5, 2005 1:32 pm (#39 of 122)

Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
It is Harry´s idea not to return to school, but I think, tht Lupin or others from the Order will make him go back. I can just imagine some heated discussions, where Harry will have to tell the Horcruxes story, he has kept quiet about up to now to other Order members.
But that is not the discussion for this thread...

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RoseMorninStar - Sep 5, 2005 2:36 pm (#40 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
It will be curious to see what will become of Hogwarts without Dumbly-dore. I could not find the exact quote, but I cannot help but think of Dumbledore's line, 'I will not truly have left Hogwarts until none here remain faithful to me.' That line keeps entering my thoughts whenever I think of that gentle and wise headmaster.

I don't know who will become headmaster/mistress, but I DO think Harry will return, because he will need information that is at Hogwarts. Either in the pensive, the Mirror of Erised, or in the Room of Requirement-or all of the above. However, I don't think Hogwarts will be a major piece of the plot (as was the Umbridge episode) there is too much territory to cover elsewhere...too many mysteries to unravel/solve. It would also not move the story forward because with the presence of Draco & Snape gone from Hogwarts, so is the tension necessary to the story. JKR has already said there would be no Quiddich, so perhaps Hogwarts will continue in a limited capacity as the Wizard War rages.

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 5, 2005 4:07 pm (#41 of 122)

I think Hogwarts will have a very important part in the story, because that is were the final battle will take place. After Dumbledore's death (see, I'm on-topic *g*) Voldemort finally will try to take over the school, where he always felt home, leading to the climax.

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RoseMorninStar - Sep 5, 2005 5:55 pm (#42 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Hmmm... just what ARE Voldemort's aims? I don't think he wants to become headmaster of Hogwarts. He wants total power and control. What would that mean.. and what was it that Dumbledore got in the way of him doing?

I mean, does Voldemort just want total obedience? Riches? Control over the ministry so that he could kill muggles or just muggle born wizards/witches? What is it he is seeking? Will people (other wizards/witches wake up now that Dumbledore is gone and realize what a crisis they are in? Perhaps Voldemort wants the schools to only teach pure bloods...is that the type of control he is looking for? With few pure blood families left, it would be difficult to build up a pure blood empire. In-bred witches/wizards...ewww...not a pretty thought.

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Neville Longbottom - Sep 6, 2005 1:50 am (#43 of 122)

I think he has several reasons to take over Hogwarts. First, as you mentioned, he could control what will be taught and who will be taught. He also felt home in Hogwarts and might try to attack the castle, because he wants to be there. And there might be a Horcrux in Hogwarts, that he wants to protect (if he finds out, that the others are destroyed). That are definitely enough reasons for him to attack the school. And now with Dumbledore gone, I think he'll risk it.

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T Brightwater - Sep 6, 2005 12:23 pm (#44 of 122)

I think what Voldemort wants is to be immortal and invincible, and anything else is just amusing himself. What DD thinks he has always wanted from Hogwarts is to tap its ancient magic, which means being there with plenty of time to look and do research. With DD gone and especially if the school is closed, he may figure he'll have a free hand, or at least a better chance of getting into the castle.

I doubt that actually running the school for the benefit of anyone else is part of his agenda.

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RoseMorninStar - Sep 6, 2005 8:51 pm (#45 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Voldemort may want to control/get into Hogwarts...but I don't think he gives two knuts about the students or teaching. Dumbledore even called him on it when he applied. Perhaps he wants something else that is at Hogwarts, like T Brightwater says.. tapping into it's ancient magic...perhaps he thinks there is some way he can learn to be immortal through the school. I think that is what he wants..immortality. It has been said several times that what Voldemort fears most is death.

I suppose he could want to rid the school of any muggle-born students. It seems so odd to me that that could be one of his objectives...seeing as he is a half-blood himself. Unless he hates that part of himself so much that he seeks to rid that from his world as much as possible. It's crazy...Voldemort ('Lord'), Snape ('Prince'), and then there is Harry, three very important people in this book..all half-bloods.

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irish flutterby - Sep 10, 2005 9:57 am (#46 of 122)

I think that part of the reason that he despises his muggle heritage is based on his fear of death. Muggles posess absolutely no means of fighting it. Muggles die every day from things that wizards see as no big deal. Muggles are weak, in his mind, and he wishes to do everything in his power to rid himself of that part of his past. Also, he could blame his mothers death (and therefore his abandonment of him) on her "deciding" to become a muggle as she decided to die rather than use magic.

The root of it all, I think is his fear of death, which, if he feels might be averted, through some means, at Hogwarts, could lead to an attack on the school. And, if a few half-bloods or "mudbloods" die in the process, it's just as well.

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Madam Pince - Sep 10, 2005 10:24 am (#47 of 122)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Very good thoughts, irish flutterby. Remember that young Tom Riddle immediately dismissed the idea of his Mother being magical during his first conversation with Dumbledore at the orphanage -- she must've been a Muggle because she died. Muggles are weak, they die, and he wants no part of either of those things.

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irish flutterby - Sep 11, 2005 2:02 pm (#48 of 122)

WHY HAVEN"T I THOUGHT OF IT BEFORE!!!

PEEVES. Who (besides the Bolldy Baron and possibly the Weasley twins) will control him? McGonagall may be able to since she might have earned some Peeves respect by helping him torment Umbridge, but can she really control him the way the DD seemed to? Just a thought, I think Peeves listened to DD because he respected DD's sense of quirky humor.

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irish flutterby - Sep 12, 2005 11:52 am (#49 of 122)

Apologies for the typographical error in my last post. That's meant to be Bloody Baron. Sorry!

Also, will McGonagall know what to do with all of DD's special insruments that are in the office. Do those stay in the office from headmaster to headmaster, or were they specific posessions of DD? Did DD have a will?

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Madame Pomfrey - Sep 12, 2005 4:38 pm (#50 of 122)

Well,if Voldemort takes over Hogwarts I would love to see Peeves torment him. That should be quite a laugh especially since every scene with Voldemort is serious.I wonder if we will ever find out why The Bloody Baron is able to control Peeves?
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Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore (Post 51 to 100)

Post  Elanor on Wed May 25, 2011 8:31 am

irish flutterby - Sep 12, 2005 6:38 pm (#51 of 122)
I think it may be related to the reason the Bloody Baron was so close to the astronomy tower on the night DD was killed.

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Madame Pomfrey - Sep 13, 2005 4:43 am (#52 of 122)

Irish,Are you saying that The Bloody Baron was stationed there to keep Peeves from interferring? I must have missed the part about the Bloody Baron being near there and I'm not sure what you mean.I am very interested to hear your thoughts on this.

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irish flutterby - Sep 13, 2005 12:02 pm (#53 of 122)

No, I'm not saying anything inparticular about Peeves and that night. I just think the Bloody Baron has some explaining to do. I can't remember why, but I seem to think that the Bloody Baron was near or on the Astronomy Tower that night at some point. I remember because as soon as I read it something clicked. The BB has always seemed very questionable to me. Why is HE the only one Peeves is afraid of? I think he's more powerful than we know right now.

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T Brightwater - Sep 13, 2005 2:31 pm (#54 of 122)

The night Harry got the memory from Slughorn, when he was arguing with the Fat Lady, Nick said that DD was back, as he had heard from the Baron. Harry asked him where he was, and Nick said, "Oh, groaning and clanking up on the Astronomy Tower, it's a favorite pastime of his."

So maybe the Tower was chosen not only because it was the tallest point, but because there was the least likelihood of Peeves interfering, since it was one of the Baron's favorite hangouts.

Dang, where is that poltergeist when you need him? Can't you imagine Snape interrupted in mid-curse by a water balloon? (evil grin)

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Madame Pomfrey - Sep 13, 2005 4:32 pm (#55 of 122)

Thanks Ya'll! I must have totally missed that.Glad I'm doing a reread.Maybe I'll have something interesting to add on the subject.

LoL T.Brightwater! That would make my day to find Snape in such a predicament.

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Vulture - Oct 12, 2005 9:41 am (#56 of 122)

It's just my opinion, but I like it !!
Order of the Pheonix: Dumbledore was the leader and the secret keeper: now that he is gone, who will be in charge? "Mad-eye" Moody, Macgonagal or Kingsley Shacklebolt are candidates I can think of (Joao Costa - Aug 25, 2005 2:34 pm)

I would think that McGonagall (Head of Hogwarts), "Mad-eye" Moody (long and strong Dark-Wizard-fighting record), or Lupin (good consensus man _ and without Dumbledore, divisions may arise) are the main candidates. Kingsley Shacklebolt, like Tonks, is too recent a recruit.

As for Lord Voldemort, a lot depends on how cold-bloodedly strategic he can make himself be _ in fact, whether he can make strategy take second place to personal pride: that's not how he has been depicted up to now, and it has made him less than 100% effective as a commander.

If I was Lord Voldemort, I would immediately follow Dumbledore's murder with some sort of major spectacular mass attack (preferably on a soft target _ e.g. Muggles), and immediately follow that with a carefully-crafted offer of ceasefire terms _ designed to offer just enough to appeal to a bare majority (probably the likes of Umbridge) of those making decisions at the Ministry, but designed to be utterly unacceptable to the rest (probably McGonagall, the Order, and most Hogwarts teachers). Divide and rule, in other words. Worked for the British Empire, even when they were letting colonies go "free".

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 12, 2005 11:09 am (#57 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Vulture, STOP! You are scaring me!

Have you been thinking about how to orchestrate a take-over for long?

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wynnleaf - Oct 12, 2005 1:14 pm (#58 of 122)

Wow! Vulture! I hope LV's not that smart -- but I'm afraid he is. That would be an excellent plot development (for the sake of suspense)!

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Detail Seeker - Oct 12, 2005 2:13 pm (#59 of 122)

Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
The cease-fire offer would be the last thing, I would do, were I LV and thought, that I can win. The offer of cease fire after some successful effort - would signal: "I am not ready or able to fight this out. "

If I am strong enough to reach everything, I want, why offer a cease fire? Then I take all and dictate peace on my conditions (e.g. Versailles 1918).

First, I have to raise the spirit of "This terror has to end at a l l price" within my enemies, before the perspective of a cease fire makes sense. As long as there is hope in the other side to be able to defeat the opponent, there is no perspective in the cease fire, as this gives my enemy the same time to restore his powers as me. Hope for a cease fire, for "peace at all cost" is the last weapon against an demoralized enemy or a last step to finally demoralize him, if he is badly shaken already.

Unless the normal Wizarding World is in agony and not in "burgeoise cowardice" ("Kick me, beat me, but let me live"), an offer of cease fire will reach nothing., but make my opponents stronger.

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The giant squid - Oct 13, 2005 3:05 am (#60 of 122)

I hope LV's not that smart -- but I'm afraid he is.--wynnleaf

Actually, for all we're told of LV being a great and powerful wizard, he's made some rather boneheaded choices along the way, acting on faulty or incomplete intel, risking himself when others could handle the job, etc. He's been outsmarted by a teenager not once or twice but at least three times already. Dumbledore wasn't (isn't) LV's greatest enemy, LV is. DD's death will just bring that more shapky to the fore, I think. Harry will finally realize, "Hey, Dumbledore wasn't holding you back after all. Turns out you're just a wanker."

--Mike

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 13, 2005 6:06 am (#61 of 122)

I would rule out McGonagall as successor of the OOP mainly because she doesn't know what Dumbledore was doing and her method of getting Harry to tell didn't work.

The successor to the OOP would most likely be one of the old timers, Moody, Aberforth, ...

Lupin's role I think will be to act as Harry's confidant. I don't that Harry will tell him anything but he will be the one to say if you need anything let me know.

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Vulture - Oct 13, 2005 10:22 am (#62 of 122)

It's just my opinion, but I like it !!
The cease-fire offer would be the last thing, I would do, were I LV and thought, that I can win. The offer of cease fire after some successful effort - would signal: "I am not ready or able to fight this out. "

If I am strong enough to reach everything, I want, why offer a cease fire? Then I take all and dictate peace on my conditions (e.g. Versailles 1918). (Detail Seeker - Oct 12, 2005 2:13 pm (#59))

And we all know what happened to the Versailles 1918 peace settlement, don't we ?!!

The point is _ Voldemort is not strong enough to reach everything he wants. In fact, it's not, generally, a good idea to fight to the bitter end even if you're the victor.

There are two well-known recent models of world domination that can illustrate different approaches: one is the British Empire (or you can combine it with its successor, the US "Free World" set-up), the other is Nazi Germany. Leave moral judgements aside for the moment, and simply consider them as how-to-conquer strategies.

The British Empire used force ruthlessly when that suited it best, but in general, tried other methods, as much for its own convenience as anything else. In short, it lasted so long and so successfully because it managed to make its conquests and rule include enough pay-offs and conveniences for enough of those under its rule, enough of the time.

In contrast, Nazi Germany took a line roughly equivalent to Detail Seeker's "If I am strong enough to reach everything, I want, why offer a cease fire?" (Please note _ Detail Seeker, I am NOT suggesting that you're a Nazi !! _ just talking strategy.)

The result of the Nazi approach was that, initially, the world reeled at the impact of "blitzkrieg". But, because the Nazis offered no mercy to the conquered, they made enemies wherever they went, and this ultimately helped grind them down. The absolutely classic case was the Ukraine _ after years of suffering under the Soviets, the Ukrainian people at first welcomed and cheered the invading German armies as liberators !! Then the SS followed the army in and began massacring all around them _ in a few short months the SS achieved what years of the Soviet secret police couldn't _ they transformed the Ukraine into loyal followers of the Red Army.

Now, RoseMorninStar and wynnleaf _ ye can take comfort from this: my impression (and it's only mine) is that JKR is depicting Voldemort as going more for the (short-sighted) Nazi model of strategy than the cunning British Empire one. He seems to be much more into his own pride and imposing fear, than considering long-term interests.

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Detail Seeker - Oct 13, 2005 12:45 pm (#63 of 122)

Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Vulture, no problem with your way of tackling this discussion.

Well, if we start discussing history, here is the example I had in mind: When in 1917 the german army had had some successes (against Romania, that had declared war, was successfully holding positions against very blood consuming french and british attacks) and the french army was partly in mutiny, the German parliament made a call for peace. And exactly that - besides shooting a lot of the leaders and participants of the mutiny - was an argument with which the mutinuous parts of the french army were called back to fighting morale: The word "See, they do not want to finish". You can read about that in many a british source, Churchill being one of them.

Another point is, that the necessary shortness of the posting did not stress one important point. I wrote, that to reach everything - and I assume, that LV is not a person to make compromises - then you have to raise the wish "peace at all cost" in your target - and be able to grant it afterwards. The ability to grant this peace ("If I obey him/her, he/she will protect me")is a key for this strategy. I do not doubt, that LV and his Death Eaters are not shown as the characters to grant this and that would doom their efforts from start on. But, remember, that Terrorists like Lenin or Stalin were able to implant this feeling in millions of Soviet subjects - they were even able to provoke feelings of love - at least with people outside their empire, who claimed to be intelligent. Even Hitler was able to raise this feeling- not only in Germany.

Perhaps, we are not too far apart: The cease fire must be a perspective, but the concept I proposed as the way to go, if you want to win, once having started the violent way, for people like LV is: "Cease fire after me taking over" and the way I understood the other concept was "Cease fire after having shown my power and hoping to take over peacefully afterwards". And as some experience shows, the latter way will most certainly encourage resistance, the former will, as long as you are successful (!), weaken resistance in the long run.

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T Brightwater - Oct 13, 2005 3:37 pm (#64 of 122)

I don't think the WW would trust a cease-fire, not with LV - he doesn't play by any rules but his own.

A lot will depend on who steps forward to lead. If the WW is lucky, they'll find a Churchill; if not, they're easy prey for a...er...let's just say Dolores Umbridge, shall we? A hard-liner with an over-simplified outlook and no use for details, who could cause as much devastation on her own side as LV's.

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Honour - Oct 14, 2005 5:20 am (#65 of 122)

I think Voldermort's plan of attack will probably be a combination of strategic attacks on wizarding families as well as attacks on the muggle world, this way he may think that he is re-instilling paranoia and fear to both worlds, and stretching the MOM resources. I think that Voldermorts main plan will be to get inside Hogwarts so the aforementioned turmoil will be enough of a distraction for him to slip in, collect or do whatever he has to do and then conquer the world....

And as before Voldermorts arrogance will be his downfall ...

I too would like to see Remus as the Order leader. By the way can anyone tell me if Prof. Flitwick is an Order member, can not remember ...

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 14, 2005 10:19 am (#66 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Honour, I do not think that Professor Flitwick is a member of the 'Order'. He could be, but it has never been stated that he is. To check on things like that, you can always go to the Lexicon A-Z, it has loads of wonderful information: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 14, 2005 12:26 pm (#67 of 122)

I am reminded of a quote from a certain character from a certain computer game. "So long as you continue to be so predictable, I need not face you at all. You are your own worst enemy."

I fear Voldemort may wise up, though.

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Vulture - Oct 18, 2005 11:45 am (#68 of 122)

It's just my opinion, but I like it !!
Perhaps, we are not too far apart (Detail Seeker - Oct 13, 2005 12:45 pm (#63))

_ I think so. My main point is that, with Dumbledore gone, there is the potential for divisions on the anti-Voldemort side (remember Sirius's remark that "the world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters"), if Voldemort chose to exploit it. But the way he's been portrayed so far, he hasn't shown much subtlety or bargaining ability (though I guess the giants and werewolves are exceptions to that).

=============================================================

On another line of thought _ we seem to have been concentrating on "Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore" for the characters. What about consequences for the writing ? His death removes the character who gives voice to the moral basis of the books.

Indeed, I noticed that, in Book 6, the morality of certain previously steadfast characters (and no _ this is nothing to do with Snape !!) was _ just in little bits, nothing huge or terrible _ starting to flake away without disturbing their consciences. It even happened to Dumbledore himself (I've discussed this elsewhere). It was almost like the first early little tremors before the moral rock they all lived by was blasted away. I wonder if JKR intended this ? Or is it (as I rather fear) that weariness of the whole thing has begun to show through and through her writing ?

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 18, 2005 1:46 pm (#69 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Vulture, I am not quite sure which post you are referring to (the one in which you discuss the decline of the moral tone of the books), but I think that what you might be referring to could be attributed to the 'growing-up' of the Characters. When Harry was a child (or 'younger' at any rate) I think it is natural for the adults in his life to try to protect him/all children in general, as long as possible. But as Harry nears the time when he will be less protected and must face Voldemort, he must also face reality and deal with the lot life has handed him. And it is not an easy lot. He needs to be prepared.

Not only that, but Harry is also growing up. JKR probably wanted Harry to be a 'real' character. I think she envisions him as 'real'. Real people are flawed. They are full of mistakes and regrets..and (fortunately) have occasional inspirations and moments of pure goodness. Teenagers have it a bit tough and they go through a lot. I think JKR wanted to show that. Teenagers test the waters of their own abilities. They need to do this to become independent. I think it sometimes appears that they have lost their way...but I think in the end you will see that the lessons learned earlier on will be applied.

We also must consider, in the pattern of storytelling, that a story must have a climax. The end of HBP was surely that. It is an essential part of any story...you are presented with all of the problems, it comes to a head, then a resolution is sought. JKR (and any good writer) has had that plot outline in each of her books singlely, and as a plot outline in the series as a whole. From comments that JKR has made, I believe she intends some type of 'goodness' to prevail. How she will achieve that is what we are all anxiously waiting for!

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Muggle Doctor - Oct 18, 2005 3:38 pm (#70 of 122)

I think the parallel between the WW and various peace offers at various times in history is an interesting one, and I'd like to make my own points.

I was always under the impression that the German peace offer at the mid-point of the first world war was tied to impossible demands (domination of Belgium in perpetuum, retention of Alsace-Lorraine, etc.) - I can go and find sources, but I don't have them to my fingertips now.

Maybe Germany was starting out asking for the world and then gradually negotiating back to a more reasonable position, but the things it asked for to start with were some of the justifications for the war in the first place (Belgium under German control, Alsace-Lorraine under German control, etc.), and it is little wonder that the offer was spurned.

Germany also made an offer to Britain shortly after France was defeated in 1940; unfortunately Hitler misjudged Churchill, who told him to get stuffed, whereas Chamberlain might have considered it.

In the wizarding world, the one man in high places who kept saying that Voldemort was back, and a threat (Dumbledore, who I think is a parallel of Churchill under these circumstances) is gone. The WW now needs to find strength within itself to go on without him (as has been so ably said already), but I think we'll find that despite Rufus Scrimgeour's fumbling of some things (Stan Shunpike etc.), he is a very different man from Cornelius Fudge, and will stand and fight whereas Fudge might have accepted terms (had he not been sacked).

I remember Sir Douglas Haig's call in 1918, when things were at their worst for the Allies (March offensive, Kaiserschlacht), for "Foch or some other French General who will fight" to be put in command. Now, Foch was probably not the best General (his methods got an awful lot of his own men killed, and frankly the French put the British in the shade on this matter), but as a supreme commander, motivating his underlings to stand and fight (instead of retreat on Paris and leave the British to their fate), he was the necessary component in the Franco-British alliance. And I think Scrimgeour is much the same; he may make mistakes, but he will keep the wizarding world in the fight, regardless of what Voldemort is doing.

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Detail Seeker - Oct 20, 2005 1:23 pm (#71 of 122)

Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
First of all, Muggle Doctor, when reasearching deeper, try to find out, if there is any truth in the legend of the First World War having been started by a bid of the german govenrment for world domination. A government, that s t a r t e d discussing war objectives first time more than a year after that war started.

Neither the proposal of 12.12.1916 nor the Resolution of 19.07.1917 did contain any conditions, they were a call for the start of negotiatons to start a peace conference(I just read the texts to be shure).

If you research more about Chamberlain, you might find out, that his policy was dictated by the knowledge, that England was not ready for the war coming up and so had to bargain for time to prepare.

But remember - this Forum is for Harry Potter discussions and so we should limit historical discussions to HP-related topics. (I know I did not stick to this here myself - shame on me). So, if you draw historical parallels, be shure of your facts, please.

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Vulture - Oct 27, 2005 11:23 am (#72 of 122)

It's just my opinion, but I like it !!
Hi, All: On the WW1 thing, I don't think "world domination" seemed as big a deal in 1914 as it might seem to us (except, of course, to the dominated !!) because, to a lesser or greater extent, they were all in it for world domination. Britain was the current world dominator, but her position was being eroded (even without war) by the economic and military rise of Germany. France was somewhere around 2nd place in world power terms. We have to remember that all sides accepted the "Great Power game" and the race for colonies as the way things were. It was only after World War 2 that world domination became "unfashionable" and, as I'm sure ye'll agree, that was more in lip-service than reality. Indeed, it could be argued that the USA's post-1945 drive to support colonies' drive for independence was partly to ensure that Britain and France stopped having pretensions to world power (for example, note the Suez Crisis line-up: Cold War enemies USA and USSR together with anti-colonial Egypt v. Britain France, and Israel !!).

==========================================================

OK, enough total breaking of Lexicon rules !!

Can we have some more on my earlier question _

"we seem to have been concentrating on "Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore" for the characters. What about consequences for the writing ? His death removes the character who gives voice to the moral basis of the books."

Thanks, RoseMorninStar for your answer in post #69. I've about 2 seconds of log-in time left, so I'll have to think more about it. I must try and dig up the posts I discussed it in, too _ wasn't in this thread, was in the "HBP as a Piece Of Literature" one (I think).

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hawick girl - Oct 28, 2005 3:31 pm (#73 of 122)

I think that his death (arguably) will cause issues, but he may have left memories, papers, etc. for Harry. So, that yes he is dead, but his infuence and knowledge may not be gone.

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Vulture - Oct 31, 2005 10:43 am (#74 of 122)

It's just my opinion, but I like it !!
Vulture, I am not quite sure which post you are referring to (the one in which you discuss the decline of the moral tone of the books) (RoseMorninStar - Oct 18, 2005 1:46 pm (#69))

Hi, RoseMorninStar: Well, (my) #42 in the "Half-Blood Prince As A Piece Of Literature" thread would be an example. There are other examples as well _ mostly in that thread.

(You may need to do a search on "Piece Of Literature" (as I had to) because it keeps disappearing from the visible list for some reason.)

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Ace Potter - Nov 4, 2005 6:42 am (#75 of 122)

I think that dumbledore must have left something behind to help harry in his 'quest', because great wizard as he is he must have forseen that this might happen and may have taken steps in making sure that harry has all the help he needs even after his death.

But wouldn't it be so cool if dumbledore comes out of nowhere in the middle of book 7 saves harry from being killed by voldemort. Well maybe that won't happen but it would be sooo cool.

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Vulture - Nov 4, 2005 10:00 am (#76 of 122)

It's just my opinion, but I like it !!
But wouldn't it be so cool if dumbledore comes out of nowhere in the middle of book 7 saves harry from being killed by voldemort. Well maybe that won't happen but it would be sooo cool. (Ace Potter - Nov 4, 2005 5:42 am (#75))

I don't like to dash your hopes, Ace Potter, but I think it's unlikely that JKR would do this because (a) it would diminish Harry's status as the Chosen One, and (b) she has a record of making clear that dead characters stay dead. (Reminds me of the Terry Pratchett line _ "are you alive ? _ if not, I'd prefer if you didn't answer".)

I'm told that there was some rubbish years ago on the Net about Snape being James in disguise or something, and on JKR's site I saw her state clearly that James and Lily are dead and are going to stay that way _ and I think she went on to make a general point about deaths being deaths. There's a lot of stuff on the Snape thread about Dumbledore faking his death _ none of it is convincing, and JKR would be very foolish to go down that road.

Before Book 6 came out, I said (somewhere on "In The End" thread) that I hoped she wouldn't kill off Dumbledore. But she did, and one of the "Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore" is that what's done is done. Trying to reverse it will just make Book 7 look feeble.

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wynnleaf - Nov 4, 2005 1:31 pm (#77 of 122)

I saw her state clearly that James and Lily are dead and are going to stay that way _ and I think she went on to make a general point about deaths being deaths.

And she has practically bent over backwards to do nothing of the kind regarding DD's supposed death.

There's a lot of stuff on the Snape thread about Dumbledore faking his death _ none of it is convincing, and JKR would be very foolish to go down that road.

Since I don't think I've seen her do anything foolish yet in her writing, I'm not too worried. If DD's alive, I'm quite sure it won't be explained by a foolish plot twist.

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RoseMorninStar - Nov 4, 2005 11:34 pm (#78 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
In 'Lord of the Rings' Gandalf fell to the Balrog and was presumed dead at the end of 'Fellowship of the Ring' only for him to re-appear (in another form) in 'The Two Towers'. Of course Gandalf was an Istari and not just any old wizard, but I think IF Dumbledore is still alive, JKR will be able to pull it off. If Dumbledore is dead, perhaps she will have some other form of Dumbledore appear... such as Fawkes/in the form of a phoenix, or messages left in his pensieve or some such device. In any case, I don't know, if Dumbledore is truly dead, if the time-turners would make any difference because Harry & Hermione had to use it before the deaths occured to save Sirius and Buckbeak.

JKR also would not rule out the idea that Harry may use time travel again, although I would think it would be going back too far to go to the night of Dumbledore's death.

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Ace Potter - Nov 5, 2005 9:34 am (#79 of 122)

RoseMorningStar, could you tell me what an Istari is!

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Elanor - Nov 5, 2005 12:25 pm (#80 of 122)

From "The complete guide to Middle-Earth" by Robert Foster:

"Istari: Five (or more) beings sent to Middle-earth by the Valar about TA [stands for Third Age] 1000 to unite and counsel Free People in their struggle against Sauron. They were forbidden to dominate the peoples of Middle-earth or to match Sauron's power with power. [...]
The istari bore the forms of old men, although they were vigorous and aged very slowly. They possessed great skill of body and mind; their powers were focused through their staffs. Each of the Istari had his own color and grade within the Order. Saruman the White was the eldest and Gandalf the Grey second. The other Istari were Radagast the Brown and several, unnamed, who dwelt far in the east. [...]
Called Wizards in Wrestron."

In short, in Tolkien's world, the Istari are not "human" but, as Tolkien said, Valar 'of a sort', that is to say some kind of angelic spirits. Does it help?

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Ace Potter - Nov 6, 2005 5:31 am (#81 of 122)

Yup, thanks a lot for the explanation!!cheers!!

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Pinky Prime - Nov 6, 2005 5:30 pm (#82 of 122)

Maybe I should start a new Lexicon Thread called "Put yourself in their shoes" Example: Hermione - I Think that we should all stick to the subject 'Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore'.

Harry told Rufus Scrimgor in HBP that Dumbledore would never be gone as long as there are those that remain loyal to him. He said something like that before when confronting Tom Riddle in the CoS. Even though he had not been killed then, this might mean DD left something that will help Harry. Maybe Fawkes the Pheonix will aid him again. DD being tied to his Pheonix as LV is tied to his snake Nagini might be able to assume some of their mascots' abilities. Assuming that this is what happened to Arthur Weasely.

Remember that Phoenixes can be reborn after busting into flame. The same kind of flame was sighted at DD's Funeral encasing DD into his tomb. there was even a fleeting image of a pheonix that soared off in the background.

Does anyone feel that DD prepared for his death and will still be able to help Harry (who is still loyal to DD) with the help of the Fawkes or will Harry die in the attempt to kill LV without his DD's aid?

OH!!!!!!!!! Thanks JKR the plot thickens.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 6, 2005 7:11 pm (#83 of 122)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
I think if you explore the entire thread Pinky you will find many different ideas expressed about ways DD may be able to help Harry if he is "properly dead" :-)

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Gina R Snape - Nov 7, 2005 10:18 am (#84 of 122)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think it's safe to say that one consequence of DD's death is that Snape is out of a teach job!

I think the fact that Hogwarts is a VERY old institution with a firm structure of order will keep it from going into total chaos. As with any shocking major event, people like to go back to a comforting routine, to feel like life is normal again even when you know it isn't.

I suspect the Deputy Headmistress is chosen in consultation with the board, and so in that case McG's assent would be assured. It makes sense for this kind of smooth transition to take place. The question then is, who would be deputy Headmaster/mistress? My money would be on Slughorn or Flitwick.

The school will be able to operate. People's emotions, however, will be raw and conflicted. The Order will need to meet and make some decisions. But Harry is a loner and though Lupin and Mrs and Mr Weasley and some others will try to talk him into staying in school, he will probably go in and out of Hogwarts as it suits him. Now that he can travel via apparating, it's not a big deal for him to fly to Hogsmeade and go where he needs to, then return to Hogwarts. I doubt his grades and NEWTs will be a high priority for him. But he may enjoy the location and comforts of Hogwarts as a home base. Where else could he live? The Dursleys? Um...no. 12GP? Possible but not likely a choice he'd enjoy. He wouldn't want to be using the Burrow as his home base as that would put the Weasleys under undo stress and danger, not to mention he won't want Molly fussing over him.

I think the Dark Lord will do a little jig knowing DD is dead. But what we don't know is if Snape AKing DD will get Draco off the hook. Was the point for DD to be killed? Or for the Dark Lord have a way to slowly torture the Malfoys for Lucius' screw up? Or both!

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Madame Librarian - Nov 7, 2005 11:02 am (#85 of 122)

I wonder if Scrimgeour will see this as an opportunity for a power grab, and maneuver the Ministry for Magic into position as the governing body for the school. I've always felt that Fudge would have loved to be the one a headmaster/mistress would have to report to, and he nearly pulled if off in book 5 with Umbridge. I see the same deviousness as regards Hogwarts in the new Prime Minister.

So, another possible consequence of DD's death is a power struggle for Hogwarts.

Ciao. Barb

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ex-FAHgeek - Nov 7, 2005 12:41 pm (#86 of 122)

---quote--- I've always felt that Fudge would have loved to be the one a headmaster/mistress would have to report to, and he nearly pulled if off in book 5 with Umbridge. ---end quote---

I've always wondered whether or not Fudge's inability to influence school policy in Chamber of Secrets had something to do with his desire to have direct control of Hogwarts. The board of governors overruled him when he wanted to keep Dumbledore at the school... "This is a matter for the governors."

Of course, Lucius Malfoy could easily make sure that Fudge forgot that he'd been the one to propose removing Dumbledore in the first place, but I'm sure he'd use some sort of suggestion about how Fudge had been powerless to act at the time.

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Gina R Snape - Nov 7, 2005 12:51 pm (#87 of 122)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, I think Fudge saw Dumbledore as his rival. So if DD was running Hogwarts, Fudge wants to run Hogwarts. The temptation to run the school may simply no longer exist in that case. Umbridge might have demonstrated that it was more work than it was worth!

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Geber - Nov 7, 2005 2:56 pm (#88 of 122)

As for what the governors will do, it is not uncommon in the USA for boards of education to have one student member. So perhaps, in an effort to fend off the Ministry of Magic, Harry will be elected to the board of governors. This would have the additional benefit of giving him more freedom to roam about, and an excuse to change his mind about returning to Hogwarts.

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Vulture - Nov 10, 2005 11:48 am (#89 of 122)

It's just my opinion, but I like it !!
I wonder if Scrimgeour will see this as an opportunity for a power grab, and maneuver the Ministry for Magic into position as the governing body for the school. (Madame Librarian - Nov 7, 2005 10:02 am (#85))

I hope not, because that would be too much like Book 5. Unfortunately, I think it may happen, because Book 6 showed plenty of signs of the writer running out of steam (in my opinion).

Well, I think Fudge saw Dumbledore as his rival. So if DD was running Hogwarts, Fudge wants to run Hogwarts. The temptation to run the school may simply no longer exist in that case. Umbridge might have demonstrated that it was more work than it was worth! (Gina R Snape - Nov 7, 2005 11:51 am (#87))

This reminds me of something _ at Dumbledore's funeral, the general demeanour of the Ministry crowd (Scrimgeour, Umbridge, etc.) leads Harry to wonder "if any of these important people were really sorry that Dumbledore was dead". Yet JKR singles Fudge out as "looking miserable" with his hat in his hand. Maybe I'm seeing more than is there, but ...

And she has practically bent over backwards to do nothing of the kind (i.e. confirm Dumbledore's death) regarding DD's supposed death (wynnleaf - Nov 4, 2005 12:31 pm (#77))

I don't recall her doing so; I'm afraid you'll have to give examples. It's significant to me that it's Snape fans who are keenest on this 'fake death' theory. The onus of proof is on them _ I'm happy to consider any theory that tries to prove that the facts as they appear are concealing something deeper. What I won't do is pretend that these (surface ?) facts don't exist, just because Snape fans are so determined. We saw Snape kill Dumbledore, and Harry (and others) examined Dumbledore's body and concluded that he's dead. Now by all means, disprove things like these, but don't tell me I didn't read what I read.

===================================================

I would hope _ assuming McGonagall gets confirmed as Head _ that Flitwick gets to be Deputy Head. He has more recent experience than Slughorn, and, given that Slughorn had to be talked out of retirement, I feel that Flitwick is more 'in line of succession'. Also, Slughorn _ though an entertaining character _ isn't 100% reliable, and the last thing Hogwarts needs now is another dodgy teacher. I also feel it would do no harm for Slytherin House to have their candidate (if he wanted to be one, which is debatable) passed over _ there have been enough rewards for their bad behaviour.

As (I assume) that the Headmistress can't continue to be a Head Of House, Gryffindor needs a new one. I think it would be a great moment if McGonagall announced (to wild cheers from its table) that the new Head Of Gryffindor is _ Professor Rubeus Hagrid. He certainly deserves it for loyalty.

However, JKR has left herself the choice of Hogwarts not re-opening, or of Harry not returning even if it does. So we should be prepared for possibility of Book 7 not featuring Hogwarts at all (or at least, not the year-structure that the other books are built on) but instead Harry's travels as he hunts the Horcruxes. I hope she doesn't go for this, because it means that characters like McGonagall will have their roles reduced even further (we saw something of this in Book 6). However, it would leave open the choice of giving Snape a big (or even bigger) role, which will please those campaigning for him.

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Diagon Nilly - Nov 10, 2005 2:49 pm (#90 of 122)

Sorry, I don't mean to go off topic but:

"the last thing Hogwarts needs now is another dodgy teacher"

Maybe so, but someone should consider hiring Voldemort to teach DADA. He may be the dodgiest teacher of them all, but he's almost guaranteed to be gone by the end of the year ;-)

Alright. Sorry for that :-/

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Gina R Snape - Nov 10, 2005 5:05 pm (#91 of 122)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Sorry, Vulture. But most of the Snape fans I know do not contest Dumbledore's death, just that it was or wasn't a murder. I wonder if speculation on Snape's motives will be a factor in the last book. I hope JKR clears the air and that she says outright (through DD's picture or some other means) that it was part of the plan, on DD's orders, for Snape to AK him.

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wynnleaf - Nov 10, 2005 8:07 pm (#92 of 122)

And she has practically bent over backwards to do nothing of the kind (i.e. confirm Dumbledore's death) regarding DD's supposed death (wynnleaf - Nov 4, 2005 12:31 pm (#77))

I don't recall her doing so; I'm afraid you'll have to give examples. It's significant to me that it's Snape fans who are keenest on this 'fake death' theory. The onus of proof is on them _ I'm happy to consider any theory that tries to prove that the facts as they appear are concealing something deeper. What I won't do is pretend that these (surface ?) facts don't exist, just because Snape fans are so determined. We saw Snape kill Dumbledore, and Harry (and others) examined Dumbledore's body and concluded that he's dead. Now by all means, disprove things like these, but don't tell me I didn't read what I read.

Vulture, I was speaking very specifically of what JKR has said in interviews. With Sirius, she was very specific in her use of words, referring to Sirius "death" or when he "died," describing her emotions on writing about the "death", etc. And then she's got DD (who speaks for JKR a lot) talking to Harry about Sirius' death. But JKR does not use specific words about DD. In other words, in whatever she has said (including what her editor said) there's been a bit of wiggle room in each quote where if he turned out alive later, she could not be accused of deliberately lying about it. Know what I think when I see that Vulture? Equivocation, that's what. And she's great at equivocation in interviews. But she didn't equivocate about Sirius' death. So why not speak in the same terms about DD?

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hawick girl - Nov 10, 2005 10:30 pm (#93 of 122)

Voldie to be DADA teacher so he would be gone by years end lol

But remember that the curse on it was because he was refused the job.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 10, 2005 10:46 pm (#94 of 122)

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I know this is "consequences" rather than "scene of" death of DD, but seems you're currently on the topic so...

I found it interesting that in GoF when Vold tries to AK Harry (again) and Harry simultaneously uses Expelliarmus, they rise up from the ground. It reminded me of when DD was AK'd and rose up. I am aware of the Priori Incantatem, and aware of no countercurse for AK, but the "rising up" in both AK scenes is a bit too coincidental.

Yes, I am a Snape fan and am very open to the possibility that the death was faked to overcome various obstacles.

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RoseMorninStar - Nov 17, 2005 1:17 am (#95 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
After reading HBP I was definitely in the 'Dumbledore-is-dead-but-he-planned-it'camp. I have since backed off a bit (but certainly not completely!) because so many people feel that would be tatamount to suicide and they don't think JKR would have had Dumbledore been a party to suicide. I do not look at it that way, but I can see why others may see it that way.

QUOTE: It's significant to me that it's Snape fans who are keenest on this 'fake death' theory. The onus of proof is on them _ I'm happy to consider any theory that tries to prove that the facts as they appear are concealing something deeper. What I won't do is pretend that these (surface ?) facts don't exist, just because Snape fans are so determined. We saw Snape kill Dumbledore, and Harry (and others) examined Dumbledore's body and concluded that he's dead. Now by all means, disprove things like these, but don't tell me I didn't read what I read. ~Vulture

Vulture, I am not sure which version of HBP you read, but upon reading the U.S. version, it is JKR who planted that idea in our heads. Otherwise I do not think it would be such a big 'theory'.

In Chapter 27 page 591-592 Dumbledore is speaking to Draco: "But now at last we can speak plainly to each other... No harm has been done, you have hurt nobody, though you are very lucky that your unintentional victims survived... I can help you, Draco."

"No, you can't" said Malfoy, his wand hand shaking very badly indeed. "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice."

"He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me--forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother--it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...When the time comes, we can protect him too. Come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..."

I think a lot of the ideas about 'Dumbledore-is-not-really-dead AND the theories about Madam Pince being Snapes mother came from this exchange. I also agree with wynnleaf...JKR has not come out an unequivically stated that Dumbledore is dead...as she did with Harry's parents and Sirius. She has also mentioned the odd term 'properly dead' a few times. So, that leads me to wonder what is 'improperly dead'??!! Was she refering to someone like Voldemort and his 'Vapormort' existence? Was she refering to inferi? Was she suggesting something else? There is also this bit of an exchange from the Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview:

ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die?

JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory?

MA & ES: Yes. It’ll be a big theory.

JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little laughter.] I have to give people hope.

Why would she say 'I have to give people hope'? Hope... that he planned to die? Hope that there was a 'reason'? Hope that he is still alive?

There are very few things I would rule out for book 7. The Horcruxes really allows JKR a lot of room to create because they are her creation alone. She does not have to follow conventional wisdom or any 'rules' about how they work. The one thing I stand by (personally) is that Dumbledore's death has something to do with the 'gleam' Dumbledore got in his eye at the end of GoF, which leads me to believe he had some sort of plan.

QUOTE: I hope not, because that would be too much like Book 5. Unfortunately, I think it may happen, because Book 6 showed plenty of signs of the writer running out of steam (in my opinion). `Vulture

I am not quite sure it is 'running out of steam' that you sensed in book 6. I think JKR has a great many things to finish up and I think she had to 'get us to that point'. I think that in book 6 there was far less room to meander off the plot outline and so it comes off a bit different from the flow of the other books. (Although she has admitted to being glad to having 'commentated' her last Quiddich game. Let's face it, if you are not a big sports fan, that can get rather onerous to describe a lot of games and make them interesting and unique.)

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Gina R Snape - Nov 17, 2005 1:45 pm (#96 of 122)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
It's funny, but when I read that interview I thought JKR was giving fans hope for Snape! Because if DD planned to die, and Snape was part of that plan, then we can all rest assured that in our shock over the moment, Snape was really following DD's orders and not acting against him. But of course, I will always first read things from a pro-Snape bias and consider later if something else is going on.

I stand firm in my comment on the other thread, though, that it is NOT Snape fans by and large defending the DD is still alive idea. I agree that these theories come straight from the quotes you gave, Rose, about hiding and protecting Draco.

I am less convinced by JKR's wavering in DD's death because I think she wanted to let that sit on its own for awhile as a crucial plot element, and not spoil anyone who might stumble upon the interviews before finishing the book. (I can't imagine who would read an interview on a fandom site and NOT finish the book, but that's beside the point).

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RoseMorninStar - Nov 17, 2005 9:45 pm (#97 of 122)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Oh, yes, Gina, JKR could ALSO have been referring to Snape and giving people hope that it was 'planned' and he (Snape) was not evil/a murderer.

It could be taken several ways. But what it is NOT... is what JKR calls a 'shut-down' of unprofitable ideas... such as when she told us Snape is not a Vampire and that the gum wrappers that Neville's mother gives Neville are just gum wrappers, nothing more. And that indeed, Lily, James and Sirius are dead. She has not been that direct about Dumbledore's death.

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Gina R Snape - Nov 18, 2005 10:32 am (#98 of 122)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
And thank merlin she WAS direct about the Snape-is-a-vampire theory. I was ready to crucio anyone who tried to bring it up again!

Anyway, I wonder if she'll broach the subject of DD's death in future interviews. Right now she's pretty quiet, but no doubt she will be visiting fans and the press again in the next year or so. We just have to . . . waaaaiiiiiit!

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Madame Librarian - Nov 18, 2005 4:14 pm (#99 of 122)

Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine.

Upon re-reading that bit from the tower scene (thank you, Rose Morning Star, for posting it) and pondering the excellent points being made, I saw another set of flashing red "hint, hint," lights associated with that phrase. My mind started wondering who else may be "hid" more completely (no, I don't expect it to be Sirius or James and Lily). DD himself is the most obvious candidate here, but can anyone suggest any others? What about Regulus? Or am I forgetting something? Did JKR include him in the unequivocably dead?

(I don't mean to jump-shift this discussion to another character. Mostly thinking of whether DD was hinting that he truly can create a false death/new identity, and his magic is hugely powerful enough to pull this off.)

Ciao. Barb

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T Brightwater - Nov 18, 2005 6:35 pm (#100 of 122)

I think JKR said in an interview or on her website somewhere that Regulus is really dead, but maybe I'm confused.
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Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore (Post 101 to 122)

Post  Elanor on Wed May 25, 2011 8:31 am

RoseMorninStar - Nov 18, 2005 10:09 pm (#101 of 122)
I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
I do believe JKR has said that Regulus is dead 'so he's pretty quiet these days.' But, Madame Librarian, some people hypothesize that Madame Pince may be a 'hidden' Eileen Pince.

Who else... hmmm.

Wormtail was hidden for a long time. Is Crookshanks more than she appears? Who exactly is Aberforth Dumbledore. We 'know' about him, but it seems rather odd that he is 'only' Dumbledore's brother. The connection/relationship is an odd one. JKR also says that there is a member of the OotP that we haven't properly met yet that we will meet in book 7. I think that will be Aberforth.

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wynnleaf - Nov 28, 2005 2:03 pm (#102 of 122)

There's been a question on a few threads about how a fake DD death would serve the plot.

First, JKR has herself said that the old wizard has to get out of the way so the "hero" (Harry) can stand alone. That leaves her with the options of killing the old wizard or getting him out of the way by another means (a supposed death).

As regards plot, I think one of the primary plot points that we already know about would be Severus' position as spy in LV's camp. We're told at the first of the book that many are suspicious of him, and likely LV, also, since he's got Pettigrew at Spinners End. So from a plot point, Severus may need to be cemented to LV's camp in order to help Harry more.

Further, Severus gets himself into trouble with the vow, and so DD could be using the fake death to extricate him from that problem.

But most importantly -- can anyone deny this one?? -- it creates a huge amount of mystery to propel us into Book 7. Just look at the threads! Why did Severus make the vow, why did DD trust him, what about the forest conversation, is DD really dead, did DD plan it? Hey, can anyone doubt the impact of this event?

One might say that given those things, why not just truly kill off DD? Well, for one, it creates some problems like possible suicide (planned death), ordering someone to commit murder, etc. If Severus is really a bad guy, there's no problem. But if JKR has him as a good guy in the end, she can't have him be a thoroughgoing murderer.

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Madame Pomfrey - Nov 30, 2005 7:26 am (#103 of 122)

Bravo,Wynnleaf! You've hit the nail on the head. Either Dumbledore is alive or Snape is very evil.I tend to go with the former.Even if Dumbledore was already dying,I cannot see him asking Snape to perform an unforgivable.

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T Brightwater - Nov 30, 2005 11:33 am (#104 of 122)

wynnleaf, I think you summed that up quite well, but I see another alternative: that Snape's repentance and redemption is in the future rather than the past. This too would be a powerful message - that even someone who has committed the ultimate act of evil can have a true change of heart.

Pardon me for bringing up the name of Dorothy L. Sayers once again, but there are a couple of her books in Jo's website "library" so it's not impossible that she was an influence. In DLS's series of radio plays "The Man Born to Be King," she characterizes Judas as highly intelligent, suspicious, envious, tormented, and, despite his belief in his own independence of mind, pathetically easy to manipulate into betrayal. Sounds a bit like Snape, maybe? In one of her essays, Sayers briefly considered what might have happened had Judas not killed himself; I wonder if Jo picked that up and ran with it...

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Saracene - Dec 1, 2005 5:42 pm (#105 of 122)

Oh, I don't know if Snape can still be redeemed assuming he did betray and kill Dumbledore. Whatever he may do, I just don't think that Harry and the rest could ever, ever forgive him for that - or the readers for that matter. There's a limit I think to how far you can push characters into a dark territory. I mean, Judas betrayed Jesus, but he did not AK him, Smile

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deletedaccount - Dec 1, 2005 7:19 pm (#106 of 122)

Perhaps Dumbledore was the one more murder needed to get to Harry that Voldemort and Wormtail were discussing at the beginning of book 4.

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frogface - Dec 2, 2005 1:34 am (#107 of 122)

Ah, but as JKR said herself of Pettigrew "There's always hope for redemption."

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Solitaire - Dec 4, 2005 1:20 pm (#108 of 122)

from a plot point, Severus may need to be cemented to LV's camp in order to help Harry more.

Alas, how could he do this, unless Harry were in on it? As things stand, Snape is probably officially on Harry's hit list ... with Bella (for killing Sirius), Pettigrew (for betraying James and Lily, framing Sirius, helping Voldemort be reborn) and Voldemort (for killing James & Lily). Unless Harry receives some prior intelligence about Snape that changes his mind, I would expect him to attempt a duel or a capture the next time they meet. Snape would appear to have lost any chance to help Harry.

Solitaire

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Gina R Snape - Dec 5, 2005 8:29 am (#109 of 122)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Ok, I have a couple of brief thoughts here.

First, I don't think 'assisted suicide' is so far off the mark here. Strategically speaking, DD probably knew whatever was in Voldy's "health drink" was going to kill him. So why not time it to Snape's advantage? Snape need not be considered a murderer if he AKd Dumbledore at the point where DD was already going to die. DD spends most of the book tying up loose ends. That's what people ready to die do.

Secondly, I think Snape is going to help Harry. But to stay alive he must not appear to help Harry. I am willing to bet a bank full of galleons that Snape's 'deep undercover' is so he can help locate horcruxes by getting as close to Voldemort as possible, then passing the information to Harry in such a way that Harry does not think it's Snape sending him the information.

In this way, Dumbledore's death not only puts Harry in the forefront, but sets up Snape to be the ultimate helper and he can redeem himself through his actions in the most slytherin "sleight-of-hand" way possible.

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Geber - Dec 5, 2005 2:46 pm (#110 of 122)

Perhaps Professor Snape will send messages in Dumbledore's name to Harry and mention that his favorite jam is raspberry. Of course, Harry has seen both Dumbledore's and Snape's handwriting, so that will have to be faked too.

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Weeny Owl - Dec 5, 2005 4:04 pm (#111 of 122)

One might say that given those things, why not just truly kill off DD? Well, for one, it creates some problems like possible suicide (planned death), ordering someone to commit murder, etc. If Severus is really a bad guy, there's no problem. But if JKR has him as a good guy in the end, she can't have him be a thoroughgoing murderer.

I don't see it as having to be one or the other. There are just too many variables. But more on that later.

As for the title of this thread... Consequences of the Death of Albus Dumbledore, well, one of the main consequences is that of turmoil, not only in the Wizarding World but also at Hogwarts. It shows that while there may have been deaths in the books up to this point, it's really and truly an all-out war. It isn't just a kid having exciting, if often tragic, adventures, but the fate of the Wizarding World is at stake.

There are many other ways of looking at this.

He's alive.

As Gina pointed out, maybe Dumbledore was already dying, although my pet theory is that he was already dead, so even though Snape cast the Avada Kedavra, he was casting it on a corpse.

He's not actually dead or alive because of the Draught of Living Death. His body is reacting as if he were dead, hence the portrait in the Head's office, but he can be revived with an antidote, and maybe that's how Snape will prove himself innocent and on the right side at the end.

He is dead, but it wasn't actually planned per se, but more along the lines of what Snape would have to do if certain scenarios came to pass.

Dumbledore is dead, Snape is evil, and he'll pay for it in the end.

I'm sure there are other possibilities as to how to look at it, but I don't see it as having to be either black or white.

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T Brightwater - Dec 6, 2005 4:29 pm (#112 of 122)

Other consequences:

Everybody in the Order now thinks Snape has been a DE all along, unless there was a plan and DD let someone else in on it. (Aberforth?)

The Order is temporarily leaderless and distracted.

Harry is now focussed on defeating LV but might get distracted by Snape.

The Ministry's most loyal opposition is gone; they're probably secretly relieved. Any bets on when or if they'll figure out that they're only making things worse?

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hawick girl - Dec 6, 2005 8:20 pm (#113 of 122)

Dead already?! Where is this thread, I want to know more. Hmmm, you've blown me away. I have to go and search now...

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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 6, 2005 8:51 pm (#114 of 122)

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Weeny Owl wrote -- "He's not actually dead or alive because of the Draught of Living Death. His body is reacting as if he were dead, hence the portrait in the Head's office, but he can be revived with an antidote, and maybe that's how Snape will prove himself innocent and on the right side at the end."

Yes, this goes back to Harry running down from the tower after Snape, thinking { he had to get Snape to DD, if he could get them together it could be reversed } ...huge paraphrase, sorry.

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Madame Pomfrey - Dec 7, 2005 9:40 am (#115 of 122)

Hawick girl,There is a theory that Dumbledore was already dying with his hand injuries and Snape had put a stopper on it{temporary)on the Was the major death in HBP real thread.Post #643 by K.Michaelis.It's pretty interesting.

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Choices - Jan 7, 2006 7:43 pm (#116 of 122)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I am reading HBP again and a thought occurred to me. Snape is the HBP, but I think Harry is also a HBP in that Dumbledore has chosen Harry to succeed him. Dumbledore is looked upon as the "king" of the Wizarding World - the acknowledged greatest sorcerer in the world. A king must have a successor and Dumbledore has picked Harry - "the chosen one", the prince who will ascend the throne. In order for Harry to take up where Dumbledore leaves off - first Dumbledore has to die and secondly, he has to pass on his powers to Harry. We know that Voldemort inadvertently passed some of his powers to Harry when the AK backfired, and I think Dumbledore (in book 7) will leave something to Harry that will empower Harry and enable him to take over for Dumbledore. Perhaps it will be Dumbledore's wand or one of the mysterious items in his office. If Dumbledore is dead, I think this is one reason he was ready to die - because he knew that for Harry to have the powers he needs to fight Voldemort, he (Dumbledore) had to turn over his own powers to Harry - to relinquish the reins to a younger wizard - the chosen one - who will become the new most powerful wizard in the Wizarding World.

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haymoni - Jan 7, 2006 10:04 pm (#117 of 122)

What happened to that thread we had about the cycle of powerful wizards? Your post reminded me of that thread - it was one of those threads that made my head hurt.

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Solitaire - Jan 8, 2006 1:08 am (#118 of 122)

I believe it was the RBL theory, Haymoni ... Recurring Boy Who Lived. Here you go ... link. Is this what you mean?

Solitaire

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 8, 2006 5:04 am (#119 of 122)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Oh my Soli! You just linked Haymoni to another headache! Another consequence of Dumbledore's death?

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Solitaire - Jan 8, 2006 8:38 pm (#120 of 122)

I'm sorry!

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haymoni - Jan 9, 2006 6:23 am (#121 of 122)

I didn't follow that thread the first time round - I can't risk it again!

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Mrs Brisbee - Jan 9, 2006 6:39 am (#122 of 122)

I am reading HBP again and a thought occurred to me. Snape is the HBP, but I think Harry is also a HBP in that Dumbledore has chosen Harry to succeed him. Dumbledore is looked upon as the "king" of the Wizarding World - the acknowledged greatest sorcerer in the world. A king must have a successor and Dumbledore has picked Harry - "the chosen one", the prince who will ascend the throne. In order for Harry to take up where Dumbledore leaves off - first Dumbledore has to die and secondly, he has to pass on his powers to Harry. --Choices

That's a good observation, Choices. I do think Dumbledore tried to pass one of his greatest powers on to Harry through their lessons together: knowledge.
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