JKR Change: Two to Die, One Reprieved - Who?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

JKR Change: Two to Die, One Reprieved - Who?

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 12:55 am

JKR Change: Two to Die, One Reprieved - Who?

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

Kip Carter - Jul 24, 2007 11:20 am
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Edited Sep 26, 2007 4:24 am

This thread is to discuss JKR Change: Two to Die, One Reprieved - Who?, which is:
"a) what character was the one who was originally intended to die but got a reprieve, and
b) who were the two characters who ended up getting killed who originally were spared?

This thread was suggested by Ms Hagrid .
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 44
Location : France

Back to top Go down

JKR Change: Two to Die, One Reprieved - Who? (Post 1 to 48)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 12:56 am

Ms Hagrid - Jul 24, 2007 11:46 am (#1 of 48)
I believe that Hagrid is the character who got the "reprieve". There were two or three instances where I was just sure he was a goner! Adding him to the epilogue only required the addition of one half-sentence.

I tend to think that Fred and Tonks were not originally intended to die.

I think Fred needed to die in order for us to accept and approve of Molly in a killing rage.

I think Tonks is the other because I think JKR would have been very reluctant to kill off a young mother who had just had a baby - but when Harry sees the bodies of Lupin and Tonks lying next to Fred that seems to be the point were he is emotionally overwhelmed and heads up to view Snape's memories because he just can't stand being in his own head at that point. The death of a young mother would have really hit Harry were it hurt most.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ms Amanda - Jul 24, 2007 12:11 pm (#2 of 48)

I think you're right; Hagrid is the one who was spared. There are others, though, who I thought might have had a chance to die. Olivander the wand maker, Luna and her father, and Kreacher being three at the top of my list.

I think that Tonks was always going to die. And I was always sure that a Weasley was going to die, and having one of the twins die was horrible, but still ok as far as that goes.

So I think, if there were two not fated to die, then it must have been Dobby, for one. I probably think that because I really didn't see it coming. The other is Mad-Eye. I think that perhaps she was planning on having Lupin die without ever seeing his son. But having Harry mad at Lupin for dying would have been just too much replay, so having someone else die in Lupin's stead was necessary for there to be a fallen warrior. Then again, there was that creepy scene with Mad-Eye's eye.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 12:32 pm (#3 of 48)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I tend to think Hagrid was the "reprieved" one, too, mainly because so many people were sure he was going to die. If it was that obvious to us, then surely she must've laid the groundwork in the earlier books somehow for us to pick up on it. Then she just changed her mind.

The other two, I have no idea, but I would love to know the answer.

- - - - - - - - - -
azi - Jul 24, 2007 1:25 pm (#4 of 48)

Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Count me in as thinking Hagrid was reprieved!

Hmm, I think either Remus/Tonks ended up dead when they weren't supposed to. As to the other...I have no idea.

- - - - - - - - - -
LooneyLuna - Jul 24, 2007 2:02 pm (#5 of 48)

Mr. Weasley got the reprieve per an interview here:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It was on msnbc.com if you can't view the tinyurl.

- - - - - - - - - -
Nan B - Jul 24, 2007 3:09 pm (#6 of 48)

That MSNBC interview (link in LooneyLuna's post) says that:

“Mr. Weasley, he was the person who got a reprieve,” Rowling said. “When I sketched out the books, Mr. Weasley was due to die in Book Five.”

Instead, another father dies in the end of Book Seven.

So one of the ones who died when they weren't intended to was another father. Is that Remus, then? Or did another father die and I'm not remembering who?

- - - - - - - - - -
Soul Search - Jul 24, 2007 3:38 pm (#7 of 48)

Ted Tonks also died.

- - - - - - - - - -
mooncalf - Jul 24, 2007 3:50 pm (#8 of 48)

No, I'm sure that means Remus was the one.

- - - - - - - - - -
geauxtigers - Jul 24, 2007 5:50 pm (#9 of 48)

Yum!
Hmm I didn't pick up on it being Remus. I guess I just interpreted differently. I'm sure that Remus was the father she was refering too, but I'm not sure that means he wasn't originally going to die. But that sounds like a good assumption. Wonder who the other was?

- - - - - - - - - -
Veritaserum - Jul 24, 2007 7:28 pm (#10 of 48)

Go Jays!
I found it interesting that we had all been interpreting the original statement to mean that these deaths/reprieves happened all in book 7, but really one of them was to happen in book 5. And he almost did die, and for awhile there after he got bitten by the snake, I really thought he was a goner.

- - - - - - - - - -
Puck - Jul 24, 2007 7:41 pm (#11 of 48)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think Tonks would be the other unplanned death.

Of course, up until reading the interview, I thought Neville was the one with the reprieve.

- - - - - - - - - -
Finn BV - Jul 24, 2007 8:34 pm (#12 of 48)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I agree, Veritaserum, I thought it was somebody who was meant to die in DH; however, she could have reworded the Epilogue last year in case somebody who died in even the first book was meant to live.

Arthur – interesting! I wonder if he would have died from the snake bite? Then would Harry have seen it happen but they couldn't get there in time? Or would he not have had the vision? My, that would have greatly changed the plot.

I think Tonks definitely was one who wasn't going to die; for the other I'm torn between Fred and Dobby.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 9:21 pm (#13 of 48)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I agree, Veritaserum -- how sneaky of her to allow us to continue thinking she was referring to deaths in DH, and here she was harking back to OotP! Hmph!

I think it had to have been Arthur was going to die from Nagini's snake bite. I forgot about Ted Tonks, but I bet the "other father" was Lupin, and that Lupin was thus one of the two that she hadn't expected to die.

The second unexpected death could either be Tonks (because of the Lupin change, she didn't want to leave either of them without the other), or it could be Fred, because she felt like she had to kill a Weasley and she had given Arthur the reprieve.

My money's on Fred.

- - - - - - - - - -
Vox Gerbilis - Jul 25, 2007 4:19 am (#14 of 48)

Perhaps this opinion has been superseded by the Arthur revelation, but I thought Luna might have gotten the reprieve. I inferred, at first, that Luna was the girl who told Ginny that she was tired of fighting and wanted to go home to her mother. I also felt that Luna was conspicuously absent from the epilogue.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ms Hagrid - Jul 25, 2007 5:53 am (#15 of 48)

I just read JKR's interview - I wish all my questions could be answered so quickly!

I'm delighted Arthur got the reprieve when he did. OotP would have been unbearably bleak had he died at that point!

- - - - - - - - - -
LooneyLuna - Jul 25, 2007 7:18 am (#16 of 48)

Vox - that brought tears to my eyes! Luna is the one that causes a distraction in the end "Look, a blibbering Humdinger!" so Harry can put on his invisability cloak to go to Dumbledore's office.

- - - - - - - - - -
Finn BV - Jul 25, 2007 9:14 pm (#17 of 48)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Well, old JKR put this thread to rest quite quickly! Tonks and Lupin weren't meant to die, says a new interview with her. Hmm, I wonder why I thought that Lupin was planned to die? At least I got half of it.

- - - - - - - - - -
geauxtigers - Jul 25, 2007 11:27 pm (#18 of 48)

Yum!
I had a feeling after reading the book that thats who it'd be, but I thought both would survive beforehand, I think. I'm starting to forget now who I thought would live/die ect. I'll have to go see what I said. Still sad.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2007 11:51 pm (#19 of 48)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
The second unexpected death could either be Tonks (because of the Lupin change, she didn't want to leave either of them without the other), or it could be Fred, because she felt like she had to kill a Weasley and she had given Arthur the reprieve.

My money's on Fred. --me, a couple days ago

This is ridiculous. The books are over and done with, and I'm still guessing things wrong! I quit.

- - - - - - - - - -
Esther Rose - Jul 27, 2007 5:51 am (#20 of 48)

Actually I read somewhere yesterday the unexpected deaths were Lupin and Tonks.

- - - - - - - - - -
Nan B - Jul 27, 2007 1:17 pm (#21 of 48)

Thanks for posting that link to USAToday, Finn!

In the article, Jo says "Lupin and Tonks were two who were killed who I had intended to keep alive. … It's like an exchange of hostages, isn't it? And I kept Mr. Weasley (Ron's father) alive. He was slated to die in the very, very original draft of the story."

I had never assumed that the one reprieve/two deaths were necessarily going to happen in DH. I thought that the one reprieve might have been Mad Eye Moodey, in GoF, because the American books had Wormtail talking about "... if I kill ..." [Moodey, I always thought] while the British books had been edited to say "... if I curse ..." [Moodey]. Of course, this is a tenuous argument, because it appeared to be an editing mistake/difference between the books, and Wormtail never identified exactly who he was talking about, anyway. But that was my theory, and I'm sticking to it (meaning I'm going to own up and admit that it was wrong LOL!)

However, I posted Jo's exact quote above, because I don't think she is referring to Mr. Weasley's near-death from snake-bite in OotP. It sounds to me as though Mr. Weasley was planned to die in Deathly Hallows, and that's what he was reprieved from! Everywhere else in the article, she is talking about DH, and I think that she is referring to DH when she says "the story".

P.S. Did any else notice that the writing style in that USAToday article is rather like Rita Skeeter's writing style? (I definitely don't mean that the USAToday article was trashy, or sensationalistic, or nasty, I must hasten to add ... it was great.) I just mean the very chatty, gossipy, writing style. I haven't seen much writing like that, I have to admit that I thought Jo had made that up!

- - - - - - - - - -
Allison R - Jul 27, 2007 3:04 pm (#22 of 48)

Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
Nan, the interview I first heard that info from (the Today show one, I think-- the first part) had her saying that Mr. Weasely was planned to die in book 5 before she changed it-- in part, "...because I couldn't bear to kill him."

- - - - - - - - - -
Remi - Jul 27, 2007 6:11 pm (#23 of 48)

Dumbledore's woman through and through
I am very surprised that Arthur was slated to be killed in book 5. I wonder how his death would have impacted and therefore changed the Weasley kids. I mean, Jo is very open about how her mom's death effected her and changed the way she wrote about Harry's parents' death. Can you imagine a Ron who has lost his dad? I wonder if there would have been all that snogging with Lavender. Gosh, would Freg & George have opened up a joke shop if Arthur had died? Would Percy have reconciled with the family sooner?

I just can't see it ....

- - - - - - - - - -
Puck - Jul 28, 2007 6:51 am (#24 of 48)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Well, she did right by him, instead of bumping him off, he gets a promotion.

I wonder if Teddy would have been born if she had stuck to her decision to let Remus and Tonks live, or if she at least needed to give him an heir....

- - - - - - - - - -
Luna Logic - Jul 28, 2007 1:27 pm (#25 of 48)

from the other side (of the Channel)
or an orphan...

- - - - - - - - - -
Chemyst - Jul 29, 2007 5:39 pm (#26 of 48)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
It is nice that we did not have to wait for months for a website update to learn that it was Tonks & Lupin. Is the late change the reason why their deaths were pretty much off-screen?
I had thought one of the deaths would be either Hagrid or Grawp– they were brothers and she could have gotten that "killing the twin" dynamic from them without turning the joke shop into a sole proprietorship.
But now I am wondering why Grawp needed to be introduced. Why giants at all? Madame Maxime could have been a simple "big boned" flirt just for GF's Yule Ball. It is not like we had a shortage of half-humans and needed something more to make Umbridge look bad.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Jul 29, 2007 6:25 pm (#27 of 48)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
JKR said on the NBC interview tonight that she wanted Hagrid to be the one to carry Harry out of the woods at the end - that is why she did not kill him off.

- - - - - - - - - -
Allison R - Jul 29, 2007 6:37 pm (#28 of 48)

Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
I thought it was fitting for Hagrid to carry Harry out of the forest. He brought Harry to the Dursleys, he brough him to Diagon Alley for the first time, he carried Harry away from the Dursleys for the last time, and he brought him safely to The Burrow. I know that Voldemort forced him to carry Harry out of the forest, but I like to think that Hagrid would have done it anyway. It was kind of a full-circle thing for me.

- - - - - - - - - -
Veritaserum - Jul 29, 2007 7:25 pm (#29 of 48)

Go Jays!
I haven't thought about that Allison, but I like that a lot. Very nice touch.

- - - - - - - - - -
Jenniffler - Jul 29, 2007 7:44 pm (#30 of 48)

Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
Right on, Allison R! Hagrid brings him in the story; Hagrid brings him back in. That's better than the two rides on Sirius's motorcycle.

Also, I'm so glad Mr. Weasley was spared. He is just so important for his sympathy and fascination with muggles.

- - - - - - - - - -
Finn BV - Jul 29, 2007 9:47 pm (#31 of 48)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
JKR said this evening on the NBC interview that she it was important to have Teddy in the epilogue to show that he has a somewhat similar story to Harry's -- orphaned at a young age by Voldemort's reign of terror. So, that's an interesting question, Puck -- I imagine Teddy still would have made it if they had lived, because he also provides a reason to keep Lupin away from helping the trio.

I never really noticed, but I guess it's true that Arthur is one of the few good fathers in the series, if not the best.

- - - - - - - - - -
Accio Sirius - Jul 30, 2007 5:54 am (#32 of 48)

Back to the old school Sirius
I wonder who raised Teddy. In the last chapter it says he comes to visit Harry's family often. I guess it would have been Andromeda. I know JKR said she wanted another orphan to mirror Harry's life and the price of war. From the little that was written, I think Teddy at least had a better childhood.

- - - - - - - - - -
Finn BV - Jul 30, 2007 9:09 am (#33 of 48)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
It was indeed Andromeda! JKR confirmed this morning in the live webchat. I've never seen her answer this many questions this frequently before! Obviously there's nothing left to hide.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madam Pince - Aug 11, 2007 9:45 am (#34 of 48)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
It must be odd for JKR to answer questions now -- she is so accustomed to having to be cagey and hide things, now it seems sometimes she is still a bit hesitant when questions are asked. Almost like she can't quite believe that it's OK to say things now.

- - - - - - - - - -
shepherdess - Aug 12, 2007 11:08 am (#35 of 48)

55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
I don't think she still needs to be hesitant because she's afraid of giving something away; but because she has a habit of answering questions without really thinking them through. Thus we get comments from her that don't fit with info in the books, or promises of things that end up not happening. (Does Ron become an auror or work at WWW?)

(No disrespect intended toward Jo--her world is a very complex one. Keeping it all straight must take an amazing mind! Especially when put on the spot!)

Hmm...now we're getting off-topic.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madam Pince - Aug 12, 2007 1:03 pm (#36 of 48)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
You may be right -- it's probably a little of both. Poor woman, she just opens her mouth and here we all pounce on her like Fred and George fighting over the failed Aging Potion in the GoF movie:

"What? But you said....!!!!"

"No, no -- YOU said....!!!"

In the webchat, one of the questions "called" her on something and she said "Are you sure I said that?" Probably gets confusing even to her at times...

- - - - - - - - - -
painting sheila - Aug 27, 2007 8:25 pm (#37 of 48)

Doing one of the things I love best . . .
I thought of how closely Snape's death mirrored what could have been Arthur's. Same snake, same bite, same Harry saw it happen - but one he could help and one he couldn't.

I wonder if Arthur had died, would Snape's death have been different? And why did LV use Nagini? Why didn't he just AK him? And why didn't LV let Nagini eat him? Why just bite to kill?

(knock knock) Jo? Are you out there? JO. . . ?

- - - - - - - - - -
Esther Rose - Aug 28, 2007 7:47 am (#38 of 48)

Painting Sheila,

Voldemort believed that Snape was still the master of the Elder Wand so naturally he did not want to become Vapormort again so he did not use the wand to kill Snape. And why didn't LV let Nagini not eat Snape? Probably all that grease was bad for Nagini's diet? Either that or he was too eager to get back to the war and to his Death Eaters.

- - - - - - - - - -
painting sheila - Aug 28, 2007 6:43 pm (#39 of 48)

Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Good points Esther Rose.

I have been listening to that scene on cd - and it just breaks my heart. I never thought I would be a Snape fan, but I may be softening.

So if Nagini killed Snape, does Nagini get the wand? HA!

- - - - - - - - - -
Chemyst - Aug 31, 2007 10:56 am (#40 of 48)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
So if Nagini killed Snape, does Nagini get the wand?

Code of Wand Use clause 3: no non-human creature permitted a Wand! Still, maybe they would let her if she could sign the waiver; but then there is that scaly little problem of no thumbs which makes both wand use and penmanship problematic – not to mention extra trouble when hitchhiking.

- - - - - - - - - -
Hoot Owl - Aug 31, 2007 1:23 pm (#41 of 48)

Teacher
(1) Nagini was only the weapon LV used to kill Snape. (2) Snape was never the Master of the Elder Wand.

- - - - - - - - - -
Nicoline Vance - Sep 1, 2007 10:15 am (#42 of 48)

...that scaly little problem of no thumbs which makes both wand use and penmanship problematic – not to mention extra trouble when hitchhiking. Chemyst

LOL! Who knew that Remus and Nagini had so much in common?

I think Hoot Owl hit the answer right on.

*Bold emphasis is mine. N.

- - - - - - - - - -
Solitaire - Sep 1, 2007 8:00 pm (#43 of 48)

why didn't LV let Nagini eat him?

There wasn't time. Things were moving pretty quickly. He might have needed Nagini at any moment during the big battle, and she would not have been able to move very quickly when she was full of Snape.

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - -
painting sheila - Sep 1, 2007 8:20 pm (#44 of 48)

Doing one of the things I love best . . .
You all are so very smart!

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Sep 2, 2007 3:54 pm (#45 of 48)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Soli - "....she would not have been able to move very quickly when she was full of Snape."

Either that or she would have been bugging Voldemort for some acid relief medicine. "Pleasssse Massster, just a ssssip of Alka-SSSeltzer. The greasssse is killing me!" LOL

- - - - - - - - - -
painting sheila - Sep 10, 2007 8:14 am (#46 of 48)

Doing one of the things I love best . . .
So, if Mr. Weasley was one of the reprieved - who was the other?

Very funny Choices!!

- - - - - - - - - -
Madam Pince - Sep 10, 2007 11:46 am (#47 of 48)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
No, it was only one reprieved. Two to die.

"Lupin and Tonks were two who were killed who I had intended to keep alive. … It's like an exchange of hostages, isn't it? And I kept Mr. Weasley (Ron's father) alive. He was slated to die in the very, very original draft of the story." --JKR in an interview with USA Today (courtesy Finn's earlier link...)

- - - - - - - - - -
painting sheila - Sep 10, 2007 8:33 pm (#48 of 48)

Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Okay - thanks for clearing that up!
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 44
Location : France

Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum