Spinner's End Dissected

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Spinner's End Dissected

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:07 am

Spinner's End Dissected

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

zelmia - Jun 10, 2006 8:14 am
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 4, 2007 6:21 am
This second chapter of HBP is froth with significance. For a start, it is one of only four such chapters in the entire series in which Harry is not present and we are given a straight third-person account. Therefore, it seems safe to place a bit more weight on anything that happens, since the description comes directly from the Author (the HP world's god) herself.
In looking closely at what happens here, some questions arise.

Firstly, why does the house appear to have "an air of neglect, as though it was not usually inhabited." The first thing that comes to mind is that Snape is never there, since he is at Hogwarts most of the year. But even so, is it because this is where Snape grew up and he has never changed the curtains or the tatty furniture? Did he choose this run-down little dwelling purposefully for some other reason?
Secondly, what exactly is Wormtail doing there? Snape reminds Wormtail in front of the Black Sisters that Wormtail has been "assigned" by Voldemort "to assist me." In what capacity exactly?
Which brings us to Snape's remark "[Wormtail] has lately taken to listening at doors. I don't know what he means by it." The remark implies several things. First, that Snape and Wormtail have been spending a bit of time together - at least long enough for Wormtail to have developed the habit of eavesdropping. Secondly, who else has come to visit Snape that Wormtail wishes to overhear? Third, what does Wormtail "mean by it"? Is he meant to report Snape's movements to Voldemort? Finally, why should these two have been paired together by Voldemort in the first place?

Perhaps most significant of all is that Wormtail is neither seen nor mentioned at all for the rest of this episode of the saga. His absence seems striking, in light of his introduction so early on.

Your thoughts?



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Spinner's End Dissected (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:11 am

Veritaserum - Jun 10, 2006 11:04 am (#1 of 322)
Go Jays!
That's a good point, zelmia. If Wormtail was supposed to be "assisting" Snape in his Hogwarts double agent role, he wouldn't be very much help, seeing as he could never show himself at Hogwarts. But could he? Was there ever a mention of a rat running around near Hogwarts?

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wynnleaf - Jun 10, 2006 11:19 am (#2 of 322)

I've always wondered about the "I don't know what he means by it," remark. The obvious answer is that LV wants him to spy on Snape. But why would Snape acknowledge such a thing to Bella and Cissy? That's such a peculiar remark. If Snape had just ended with the comment that Pettigrew had taken to listening at doors, that would be understandable. Peters a "rat" and the type to do such a thing. I don't understand Snape's second comment.

And that's a good point that Peter has "taken to" eavesdropping, as though they'd been around each other for some time and Peter had only recently started to eavesdrop.

Also, as you say, who has been coming by? Snape seems willing to admit to Bella and Cissy that there have been other conversations while Pettigrew was at the house. But Bella said that she thought she and Cissy were "the first of our kind" to be there -- which implies to me that she thought (rightly or wrongly) they were the first purebloods.

By the way, Peter refers to the house as Snape's house, so we do know it's his. The large number of books seem, to me, to indicate someone at least used to spend a great deal of time at the house. Yet the air of neglect implies that no one has spent much time there for quite awhile. And doesn't Peter mention cleaning the house? Yet it still has an air of neglect. So perhaps they'd not been there long.

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Magic Words - Jun 10, 2006 12:23 pm (#3 of 322)

"I don't know what he means by it" could be nothing more than a display of self-confidence. He wants to avoid showing weakness in front of Bella. Just saying that Wormtail listens at doors could be construed as complaining or worrying, but adding the last sentence gives a distinct impression: it's nothing to be concerned about about at all, there's no way Wormtail could do any damage, I don't know why he's bothering to try.

That said, I'm entirely willing to accept more complicated (and therefore more interesting) explanations.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 10, 2006 12:45 pm (#4 of 322)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
I don't know what he means by it.

My take on this is a smug comment by Snape meaning that the Rat does not have the kind of credibility with Big V that Snape does (i.e., no matter what he would come up with to report to Big V about, it would not supersede Big V's affinity to Snape). What makes me suspicious about this comment is the precedent that has been set in the books, i.e. what happens when someone underestimates the Rat.

With regard to "Spinner's End", I am under the impression that the vow that was made there had sealed his fate once and for all on many levels. Using Hogwarts as the most prominent example, it was the vow made in Spinner's End that was to be the beginning of the undoing of the spinner, hence, spinner's end.

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zelmia - Jun 11, 2006 1:30 am (#5 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Magic Words, I like that take very much. May I follow your lead a bit on that and add that the subtext of this remark, particularly where Bella is concerned might also be: "I don't know what he means by it" = ("There isn't anything for him to hear").

As far as Wormtail showing himself or not, we learn in the Chapter One of HBP that it is now common knowledge that Sirius was innocent - and also presumably that Wormtail was the real traitor. Not wanting to be seen now has an entirely different meaning for our rodent friend.

The "listening at doors" behaviour that Wormtail exhibits, apparently routinely, seems to be in his Rat-ish nature. But surely he is actually hoping to overhear something useful. What would he then do with such a nugget of information?
Could Voldemort be deliberately playing Bella and Snape off each other, with Wormtail as intermediary?

I won't go into the Vow, because we already have a Thread for that. But I do wonder whether Narcissa had intended to invoke that particular spell all along. She was certainly in a great hurry to get to Snape's once she apparated - almost as if 'the clock was ticking' so to speak. Bella was in just as great a hurry to stop her. Was there some deadline hanging over the Malfoy family?

One last point. This is the chapter that truly introduces Narcissa Malfoy. We had only a brief glimpse of her at the QWC in GF. But here, not only do we officially meet her for the first time, but she 'apparates' into the saga as a fully-developed character with far more complexity than any other minor character. I can't help being captivated by how many facets Rowling has given her.

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Chemyst - Jun 11, 2006 6:20 pm (#6 of 322)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Like Magic Words, I think "I don't know what he means by it" is primarily a display of self-confidence to avoid showing weakness in front of Bella. I also think it is a lie. I think Snape knows exactly what Wormtail means by it– Wormtail’s eavesdropping means he is both suspicious of and afraid of Snape.

IF Snape underestimates Peter, I don’t think it would be underestimation of his magical ability. I think it would be underestimation of how Peter might react. Peter could be a wild card in the final showdown.

[Remember when Fred (knowing him only as Scabbers) said that the time the rat bit Goyle’s finger was its 'finest hour' and that the scar could be a 'lasting tribute to his memory?' (It was assumed Scabbers had been eaten by Crookshanks at that point. PA13) That could be foreshadowing, I guess.]

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haymoni - Jun 11, 2006 7:10 pm (#7 of 322)

I thought "I don't know what he means by it" to mean "I don't know what he's thinking!"

Wormtail is listening at doors - doesn't he know that Snape can blast him into tiny rat bits?

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journeymom - Jun 12, 2006 11:21 pm (#8 of 322)

But LV would probably be very annoyed if Snape blasted LV's most servile death eater.

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zelmia - Jun 13, 2006 3:31 am (#9 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Why? Wormtail has pretty much served his purpose and Wormtail is probably very much aware of this. Hence the "listening at doors" habit.

Wormtail must be hoping to catch either Snape or Bella out. His work is essentially over, where Voldemort is concerned. In Voldie's eyes, Wormtail could very well be seen as the main cause of his downfall. But also as his rebirth.
But now that Voldie is back and whole and strong, Wormtail's purpose has basically been served at this point.

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rambkowalczyk - Jun 13, 2006 4:29 am (#10 of 322)

When Snape listened at doorways he got a prophecy. Perhaps Wormtail is doing the sincerest form of flattery.
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Soul Search - Jun 13, 2006 7:14 am (#11 of 322)

A most telling hint in "Spinner's End" is Wormtail listening at doors. It is the kind of hint that doesn't give us enough to speculate on anything specific, but can be used as a prelude to most anything. That said, I would like to speculate, anyway.

"Listening" implies a conversation between Snape and others. "Habit" suggests multiple occurances. So, Snape has had a number of visitors to his house at Spinner's End. Bellatrix's speculation that "we must be the first of our kind" (at Spinner's End) is very wrong, but shows she hasn't been there before, nor does she know of the others Snape has entertained. Snape's house at Spinner's End is a secret location even, generally, among death eaters.

Who has Snape been entertaining at Spinner's End?

"Who" must be related to the storyline, otherwise why mention it. Romantic interest? Not Likely (Unless Gina has found a way to Spinner's End.) Members of the Order? Way too risky. Voldemort? Wormtail would not dare listen; he would end up as a snake treat. Snape must be meeting on Voldemort's orders, otherwise Wormtail overhearing anything would be too risky and Snape would have silenced him.

So, Snape has been meeting with death eaters, and Bellatrix doesn't know about it. Bellatrix is jealous of Snape's position with Voldemort, so she might assume he has some authority over other death eaters, but just not how much or any specific activity.
It would also make sense for Voldemort to give general orders to a "leader" death eater and for that leader to have a separate place he can meet and plan. Voldemort wouldn't want to be bothered with details and large numbers of death eaters couldn't be coming and going to Voldemort's hiding place. Privates don't get orders from generals. Fudge mentions in "The Other Minister" that the Ministry can't find Voldemort, suggesting he is well hidden.

The previous chapter, "The Other Minister," also mentions catastrophes and deaths that have occurred. Snape mentions Emmeline Vance's death and suggests he had some role in it. (Emmeline was in the Order, and she was part of Harry's escort to #12 Grimmauld Place in OotP.) So, Snape has been directing death eaters and has had some responsibility for the catastrophes and deaths that have occurred.

Snape will continue to have meetings at his Spinner's End house, directing death eaters to carry out Voldemort's wishes. Wormtail will continue to listen at doors.

Among Voldemort's next goals has to be, finally, killing Harry Potter. Snape has been very vocal, generally and to Belletrix in "Spinner's End," about his dislike of Harry. Voldemort will task Snape with getting Harry to him, so he can be killed in some spectacular way. Wormtail will overhear this planning.

Wormtail is unhappy with his lot. He fears Voldemort and suspects that Voldemort will kill him. Wormtail owes Harry a life debt, which Dumbledore has told Harry will be important.

Wormtail will flee "Spinner's End" and tell Harry of Voldemort's plans to capture and kill him.

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haymoni - Jun 13, 2006 7:42 am (#12 of 322)

I think Wormtail is spying for Voldy.

I'd LIKE to think that Wormtail is trying to help Harry, but it wouldn't help Wormtail.

He can't ever return to the Wizarding World, so there isn't any benefit to trying to get info back to Harry. He'll end up in Azkaban and who wants that??

He's looking for ammo to secure his position with Voldy.

If Peter helps Harry, he'll die in the process.

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wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2006 7:43 am (#13 of 322)

Soul Search,

Great speculation.

Bella does not know of these others who have met at Spinner End. Narcissa has been there before however, and probably Lucius before her.

There's another option that is similar to your speculation. I've often wondered if there weren't many DE's -- such as Lucius -- whose lives were a lot better off prior to LV's return. Regardless of how much they might agree with some of LV's ideas of blood purity, these people aren't really better off with LV around. They and their families are put at risk.

Could DE's meet at Spinners End when they didn't want LV to know of their conversations? Could the meetings at Spinners End represent some sort of mutiny in the ranks?

Just another possibility.

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haymoni - Jun 13, 2006 7:44 am (#14 of 322)

The other Death Eaters that showed up at Hogwarts didn't seem to have any trouble taking orders from Snape.

I'm wondering if he's entertained a few of them.

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Veritaserum - Jun 13, 2006 8:17 am (#15 of 322)

Go Jays!
Ooh, wynnleaf, that's a very interesting speculation. A Death-Eater mutiny. Wouldn't that be a twist? Yet it seems possible, especially from Snape.

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Magic Words - Jun 13, 2006 9:28 am (#16 of 322)


gasp* A Death-Eater mutiny! Wouldn't that be something! Ooh, I hope you're right, Wynnleaf! And led by Snape...

Something like that would be all but impossible to pull off. The Death Eaters involved would each have to trust the others not to crack under torture. But it's not impossible. We have Unbreakable Vows and the like, and Snape knows Legilimency... and it puts yet another spin on "I don't know what he means by it." Snape would know very well what Wormtail hopes to achieve, but he wants to keep Bella in the dark about it.

One question this theory raises is, again, why Wormtail is there to begin with. Does Voldemort suspect unrest? Or is he just generally suspicious of what Snape might get up to? And how would Snape prevent Wormtail from spreading the knowledge that DE's visit Spinner's End and he's not allowed to hear their conversations?

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haymoni - Jun 13, 2006 9:48 am (#17 of 322)

Why doesn't Wormtail run off and get some Extendable Ears???

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TheSaint - Jun 13, 2006 10:10 am (#18 of 322)

I just thought Volde was done with Wormtail and wanted him out of his sight. I don't think he is a big fan of company. I presume he said...'go help Snape,' just to get him out of his hair. Wormtail is listening because he knows Snape knows more than he does and hw (wormtail) doesn't have the access he used to have.

Probably too simplistic for Jo though.

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Soul Search - Jun 13, 2006 11:28 am (#19 of 322)

wynnleaf,

I like your "disaffected death eaters," mutiny idea. I am not sure how far "mutiny" would go, but anything could help Harry.

A long while back, on the Lucius Malfoy topic, there was some speculation, with some good citations, that Lucius would rather Voldemort never showed up; he was doing quite well on his own and his first job for Voldemort got him in Azkaban.

A mutiny might also explain why Bellatrix didn't know that death eaters had been visiting Snape at Spinner's End.

Trust would, indeed, be the issue. Any death eater could win points with Voldemort by revealing the plot. Very dangerous. Wormtail would support the idea, but couldn't be trusted with even a hint.

Wormtail being at Spinner's End could mean Voldemort has a hint of a mutiny. Or, just that Voldemort doesn't trust anyone. Or, that Wormtail is a nuisance to have around.

If death eaters came to Spinner's End both to get orders for Voldemort's tasks and to foment mutiny, there would be less suspicion for Wormtail.

Yet, I have had thoughts that Snape was wasted as a spy. How much could Dumbledore act on Snape's information without jeopardizing Snape's life. Snape is a powerful wizard and could have taken out a lot of death eaters.

However, if Snape's real task has been to foment a mutiny, well, that would really be something.

Snape being friends with Lucius, mentioned by Narcissa in "Spinner's End," would be support for the mutiny idea. Might also justify why Narcissa thought she could come to Snape for help.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that Narcissa is a part of the mutiny, and she came to Snape expecting help. She could have gone to Voldemort and revealed the mutiny to save Draco. Snape had to help her, and had to take the unbreakable vow, so she would not go to Voldemort.

I think we presented some good evidence on the Snape topic that Snape strongly wants Voldemeort dead, and wants to be the one to do it. He resents that Harry will be the one to do it, instead of himself. Fomenting a mutiny could satisfy Snape's need to take revenge on Voldemort, even more than spying.

Snape does know that only Harry can defeat Voldemort?

Okay, more thoughts.

Sirius or Lupin mentioned a number of future death eaters that hung out with Snape at Hogwarts. Might they be good candidates for a mutiny?

I think Avery is suspect, too. Surely he knew that the prophecies were protected and Bode would have not been able to get one. Yet, he told Voldemort someone could, and Voldemort wasted considerable time trying. Or, Avery could just be another of Dumbledore's spies (Dumbledore used the plural, spies.)

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journeymom - Jun 13, 2006 11:35 am (#20 of 322)

I love the idea of death eater mutiny. Not likely, though. Seems like there would have been a hint of it in HBP, but I don't see it.

Read Shiv's "Big Name Death Eater" for a funny take on death eater dissension and mutiny within the ranks.

"Wormtail is unhappy with his lot. He fears Voldemort and suspects that Voldemort will kill him. Wormtail owes Harry a life debt, which Dumbledore has told Harry will be important.

Wormtail will flee "Spinner's End" and tell Harry of Voldemort's plans to capture and kill him."

I can see this happening, and ironically it will be the end of Snape somehow.

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wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2006 11:47 am (#21 of 322)

journeymom,

You could be right. However, I'm fairly confident that JKR will have Harry at some point forgive Snape -- so I'm expecting there will have to be interaction between them to accomplish that.

On the mutiny idea -- remember that Lupin is supposed to be trying to turn some of the werewolves (if I understand his mission correctly). So it would make sense if Snape was trying to do the same with some of the DE's. After all Regulas turned. And I really doubt if Lucius truly wants LV around -- he had so much more power with LV. I certainly wouldn't expect to see any of the rank and file DE's become good guys. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of them turned on LV at the end.

In part, I thought of this because I've been wondering what JKR was going to do with Lucius. I sort of doubt she'll leave him languishing in Azkaban til the end of the series. He's just to juicy a character. He may keep being an Evil Villian and strong supporter of LV. But he'll have heard from Narcissa that LV almost got their son killed intentionally and that, if nothing else, may make him willing to try to bring down LV.

I tend to think Narcissa knowing about Spinner End, as well as her pleas to Severus based on his friendship with Lucius, points to Lucius being well acquainted with Spinners End. Yet when would the Malfoys have had an opportunity to become familiar with Spinners End? The house appears as no one has used it much in a long time. So I'd think their familiarity with the house would be from years ago. That hints of a possible close friendship.

Severus, at Spinners End, was willing to risk his life to protect Draco. He was willing to risk his life to protect someone that LV was trying to get killed.

I guess I see a lot of opportunities to, if Lucius was only out of Azkaban, quickly weave a Malfoy/Snape friendship and a Malfoy discontent with LV into Lucius turning against LV. The basic plot groundwork is already there.

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Chemyst - Jun 13, 2006 2:39 pm (#22 of 322)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
When Snape listened at doorways he got a prophecy. Perhaps Wormtail is doing the sincerest form of flattery. ~ rambkowalczyk
Cute.

Why doesn't Wormtail run off and get some Extendable Ears??? ~ haymoni
... also cute. Of course, Fred & George may not let him in the store.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just thought Volde was done with Wormtail ~ TheSaint

Wormtail has pretty much served his purpose [..]His work is essentially over, where Voldemort is concerned. ~ zelmia

Oh, I wish! And Wormtail probably wishes so too; but I don't see him being free that easily. LV has too much on him– someone will have to do LV's dirtywork; and Wormtail sort of needs LV, unless he want to go back to living in a wire cage at a pet shop. Plus, he has some unique value, being a rat and all who knows his way around Hogwarts well enough to survive the prowlings of both Mrs. Norris and Crookshanks. He was there for years with no help from a vanishing cabinet.
And when it comes to the storyline, someone will have to rat out Snape, wont't they? I can't imagine Snape being silly enough to get himself caught.

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Catherine - Jun 13, 2006 2:55 pm (#23 of 322)

Canon Seeker
And when it comes to the storyline, someone will have to rat out Snape, won't they? I can't imagine Snape being silly enough to get himself caught. --Chemyst

Punnily enough, I agree with you. Wormtail is, after all, a rat at heart.

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Magic Words - Jun 13, 2006 3:11 pm (#24 of 322)

And when it comes to the storyline, someone will have to rat out Snape, won't they? I can't imagine Snape being silly enough to get himself caught. --Chemyst

Why does he have to get caught at all?

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zelmia - Jun 13, 2006 3:56 pm (#25 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Great ideas, everyone! Wow!

I just want to clarify what I meant when I said that Wormtail had pretty much served his purpose.
Voldemort needed someone both to care for and especially to act for him while he was still in his "ugly baby" form (GF). Of course by now it was pretty clear that none of the rest of his Inner Circle of Death Eaters was going to come looking for him so he pretty much had to accept whoever came along. Enter Wormtail.
However, once Voldemort made his grand "renaissance", he could perform his own deeds - with his own hands. Those things he didn't want to do, he now had plenty of other servants to choose from to do them for him. Lucius Malfoy, for example?
In one fell swish of a cloak, Wormtail isn't as much of a hot commodity as he was a minute ago. His purpose has been served.

Speaking of Lucius, I'm not so sure that he would actually step in and protect Draco from Voldemort if it came to that. I have long believed that Lucius would hand Draco over to Voldemort, finally opening Draco's eyes to the true Evil that is the Death Eater organization. That scenario could still play out.
However, we do have a sort of parallel mother-who-would-do-anything to protect her son. We see very clearly that, though on completely opposite sides of the War, Draco's mum is really no different from Harry's in that respect. This is one thing these two archenemies have in common.

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Dobby Socks - Jun 13, 2006 8:58 pm (#26 of 322)

wynnleaf,

I’ve been suspecting for quite awhile that Lucius may want to get rid of Voldemort. He was quite the influential player until LV returned. He didn’t seem at all pleased that his “master” returned and took his comfortable life away. I’ve thought that Snape’s flinch in GoF when Harry names Malfoy to Fudge as one of the DEs present at LV’s rebirthing may have been due to surprise (or discomfort) that Lucius was there. Then again, even if Lucius dislikes Voldemort, he’s too intelligent to pull a Karkaroff. So maybe Snape was just upset at the mention, and the flinch demonstrated their close association.

I’ll readily admit that I’m biased toward Snape, and I’ve always despised Lucius, so even their supposed friendship makes me uncomfortable. I perceive their characters to be quite different to the point of incompatibility. Most of this is due to my understanding of (or guesses at) their motivations for their DE affiliation. Malfoy obviously has a pureblood agenda, and probably not much more in common with LV. I always thought Snape joined mostly because he wanted respect for his Dark Arts abilities. Although I can see Severus picking up some pointers from Lucius early on. Despite their obvious close ties, I’ve always secretly hoped there was another agenda behind the Lucius/Severus association in Snape’s case.

I’ve even thought at times that perhaps Malfoy was prepared to make a power grab once LV fell, but as much as I dislike him, he doesn’t strike me as someone who would be happy filling LV’s shoes. I think he’d rather be back wielding his power at the Ministry (probably not a possibility for him now, but I’m sure there must be some ties left that would allow him to become something other than a DE. Perhaps he could work high-end Men’s retail with the Muggles… Sorry, digressing again). I have suspected something rather surprising would happen with Lucius before the end of the series.

I never considered for a moment though that Snape’s assignment wasn’t primarily as a spy. I’m finding this mutiny idea very interesting. And I’m sure there are other DEs who are unhappy to once again find themselves indentured servants and crucio practice pads for their newly regenerated dark lord. And, as you said, Snape’s role in the war would then correspond to the roles of the other Order of the Phoenix members: converting werewolves, giants, goblins, and DEs too. Hmm… something to at least give serious thought to. Although Snape seemed quite proud of his spy role when Harry accused him of such in OotP. Could be that he’s been doing both (and organizing an uprising suddenly looks a lot more profitable than double agent duty somehow.)

I suppose I’m going to be eventually forced to concede that Severus is close to the Malfoys. At this point I can accept Draco and Narcissa, but I think I’ll wait to be forced kicking and screaming to accept Lucius.

Gee -- I guess that’s my Malfoy rant for the week.

I like the idea of a DE mutiny, though. What an addition to Book 7! And Bella’s reaction would be priceless.

I have more babbling to do regarding Wormtail, but I’ll save it for later.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 13, 2006 9:32 pm (#27 of 322)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
Great posts and ideas getting tossed around! Just wanted to add my two cents worth. The first thing that came to mind as I read these is the conversation Hagrid overheard between Snape and DD. What if DD firmly believed, as he did with Draco, that not all of the DEs are willing members in such a way and then proceeded to name a few that he felt were on the fence. The idea of rounding up those DEs would seem terribly risky. Just a thought.

He fears Voldemort and suspects that Voldemort will kill him. Not too sure about this. Though Big V may consider him expendable, he may be saving him for a 'kamikaze' type of strike where he may or may not return and would not be sorely missed, if at all. But I don't think he's looking to AK him or anything. What bothers me about the rat's life debt is that he is loyal to whoever is the bigger threat - Big V for the most part. I suppose what I am getting at is that it depends upon who he fears more. I think it's safe to say that he recognizes Harry's sense of compassion.

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Soul Search - Jun 14, 2006 6:13 am (#28 of 322)

Dobby Socks,

You may have a better read on Wormtail's fears. Voldemort won't kill him outright, but may send him on a deadly mission. Snape's mention of more dangerous assignments to Wormtail adds some credibility to the idea.

In Wormtail's mind, his helping Voldemort return should have got him a position where Snape is bringing him drinks and cleaning his house, rather than the other way around.

I think we can say that "Spinner's End" does establish that Wormtail is dissatisfied with his "reward" from Voldemort, fears him, and will run to a safer situation, should an opportunity arise.

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Magic Words - Jun 14, 2006 6:54 am (#29 of 322)

I have no trouble at all accepting the fact that many DE's are dissatisfied and wish Voldemort had never returned. But I have one issue with the whole mutiny idea. What do they expect to do if they succeed? Name Snape the Dark Lord and continue terrorizing the world? Go into hiding indefinitely? Turn themselves in? Dumbledore offered Malfoy protection, but Malfoy hadn't done any irrevocable harm yet, and Dumbledore's no longer in charge. I don't believe the Ministry would be willing to forgive defecting Death Eaters and frankly, I hope they don't. But when looked at that way, wouldn't they mostly choose to take their chances with Voldemort?

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Veritaserum - Jun 14, 2006 8:15 am (#30 of 322)

Go Jays!
I could see Malfoy maybe taking over the Ministry and start Muggle/Muggleborn persecutions, get like-minded people into the Ministry, things like that. So even if they did succeed, Harry would still have to defeat them. Sigh...the life of a hero.

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Chemyst - Jun 14, 2006 10:04 am (#31 of 322)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Why does he [Snape] have to get caught at all? ~ Magic Words

Good question— and a full answer would probably need to be moved to the Snape thread. But within the context of dissecting Spinner’s End, JKR has reinforced the is-he-or-isn’t-he a good/bad guy. Bella accuses Snape of betraying Voldemort, but he gives answers that ‘prove’ his loyalty. Then he turns around and makes an Unbreakable Vow, (impressing Bella to serve as Bonder,) which will protect Draco from Voldemort!

So, I think that when a character has been as carefully and elaborately constructed to be as ambiguous as Professor Snape has been, the story demands some sort of resolution. So maybe he won’t be 'caught' directly by Voldemort personally, but he’ll have to be 'caught' (as in have his true motives exposed) by someone or something for his character to have any valid purpose beyond that of being a general irritant for Harry.

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wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 11:09 am (#32 of 322)

The Vow aspect to the Spinners End chapter has been dissected to shreds on other threads. And is still being debated.

But we can learn a lot more through this chapter.

The first assumption for many people is that the house itself gives us a lot of new insight into Snape's background. What do we really know, or what can we consider probably new information, from the house itself?

Pettigrew says that it is Snape's house. I tend to think it has to have been owned by him for a long time because of the "air of neglect" combined with full bookcases -- in other words, somebody spent enough time there a long time previously in order to fill the bookcases. Since my experience is that people who love books tend to keep them where they live, I think it's more probable that the books at Spinners End were purchased many years previously -- perhaps they were there when Snape was a kid. They are well bound books, as I recall, so they'd be purchased by someone who was willing to spend a fair amount on books. But I don't think these are Snapes books -- or at least if they are, they're ones he doesn't care much about any more -- because they've been left at Spinners End.

Deciding whether or not Spinners End is Snape's boyhood home is important, because if it was his home, then it explains a lot about his past and the type of person he was as a kid, especially as compared to wealthy, pureblood students (Slytherin and Gryffindor). So is this his boyhood home? Or not? What's most likely? What's the house being used for now? Does the Order know about it? Did DD know about it?

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haymoni - Jun 14, 2006 11:16 am (#33 of 322)

I'm guessing all Snape has to do is get to Hogsmeade and apparate to Spinners End.

The books could be those he has already read.

If he wants to re-read an old favorite or look up some obscure reference, he just zaps back home.

He has his own personal library.

Mmmm...library...Madame Pince...

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journeymom - Jun 14, 2006 11:48 am (#34 of 322)

"Then he turns around and makes an Unbreakable Vow, (impressing Bella to serve as Bonder,) which will protect Draco from Voldemort! " Chemyst

Yeah, I saw this. I wonder if it's occured to Bella that's she's done something in defiance of her lord and master? Does that mean she's picking Narcissa and Draco over LV? She's probably not aware that LV might see it that way.

I love the idea that Madam Pince is Snape's mom. Being a librarian's son, Snape would have a ton of books collected over 40 years. If he has a family home, or even a home he's had since his young adult years, it would make sense to keep his older books there, rather than in his quarters at Hogwarts. He might have a portkey, or perhaps he can floo.

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wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 12:57 pm (#35 of 322)

If he goes back home often, then why the air of neglect? Snape seems to care about people cleaning up in the potions lab. If he loves books so much, would he keep his library at home dust covered? Just a thought.

Of course, if those are mom's books, and mom is Madam Pince, what's she doing letting them stay there gathering dust? Oh, yeah. She's in the wizarding protection program and can't visit. Probably trusting Severus to take care of the home place. Yep, right.

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zelmia - Jun 14, 2006 2:51 pm (#36 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Hm. I don't think Snape's mum is Madame Pince. His mum is Eileen Prince, as we learned at the end of HBP. Since Hermione had a photo of her, albeit at a younger age, from the Daily Prophet - the Trio know what Eileen Prince looks like. Although they weren't able to see any resemblance so.... But this topic is for the Snape Thread anyway.

I think Magic Words makes an excellent point. To what end would the Death Eaters be conspiring a mutiny? Unless they were trying to accomplish the same thing as the rest of the Wizarding World, what would taking Voldemort down actually accomplish? A Death Eater mutiny that supplants Voldemort with someone else serves little purpose in the overall story.

One small point on the Vow. When Snape enlists Bella as bonder, I would say he is not so much going against Voldemort as he is going against Dumbledore. This is what ultimately convinces Bellatrix of his loyalty.

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Holly T. - Jun 15, 2006 8:25 am (#37 of 322)

I am not sure about the Madam Pince/Eileen Prince thing either. If the potions book is Eileen's, as some have theorized, then how does that reconcile with Madam Pince's known aversion to writing in books? Likewise, if it belongs to Severus, you would think he wouldn't have wanted to write so much in a book his mom might see.

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haymoni - Jun 15, 2006 8:33 am (#38 of 322)

Perhaps her problem wasn't REALLY with the writing but the fact that she recognized it as her book.

She couldn't very well say - "Hey! What are you doing with my book???" - her cover would be blown!

The Death Eater Mutiny would only serve to get rid of Voldy. They would have had to reconcile with the fact that they would be punished for their earlier involvement. They may have been willing to do that if it means their family name would be cleared and their children would not be stigmatized.

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Holly T. - Jun 15, 2006 8:37 am (#39 of 322)

There's something in Quidditch through the Ages or Fantastic Beasts about how Madam Pince hates writing in books. My daughter loaned the books to my sister, who found them when she was packing to move and set them aside to bring back to us, but my dad found them and packed them. So our books are in California.
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wynnleaf - Jun 15, 2006 9:58 am (#40 of 322)

We're getting away from the thread some, but Snape's mom (whoever she is), possibly or probably disliking writing in books, in no way prevents Snape from writing in books -- including old books of his mom's once he got possession of them.

I was really just kidding when I brought up the Pince/Prince thing. I do think it's a great theory, but didn't mean to get into it on this thread -- other than that the books in Spinner's End could have belonged to Snape's parents, in particular to his mother. That's, of course, if the house was his childhood home.

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Solitaire - Jun 15, 2006 10:50 am (#41 of 322)

For those who are new and may not know, there is an Eileen Prince thread. Although it appears to be open, no one has posted since October. Just thought you might want to know ...

Solitaire

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 15, 2006 5:37 pm (#42 of 322)

Bella made a comment that she and Cissy must be the first of their kind to ever set foot at Spinners End and then asked "He lives here? Here?In this muggle dunghill?" Maybe it was Tobias Snape's family home since he was a muggle.I don't think Eileen Prince would want to live in a muggle neighborhood and we know that their marraige was announced in a wizarding newspaper so perhaps Snape had inherited the home given the fact that it was described as having had an air of neglect,as though it wasn't usually inhabited.On the other hand,The neighborhood is described as having rows and rows of dilapidated houses(neglected or a poor neighborhood?) and in"Snapes Worst Memory" Severus has on graying underwear(poor?) so, he may have grown up in that house. There are so many questions: Are his parents alive or dead? Why is the house in a neglected state? Had Severus moved out because he got married or did he get kicked out for DE activity? etc.etc.

When Harry broke into Snape's mind,Harry saw a hooked nose man shouting at a cowering woman that we assume to be Snape's parents.So Snape inherited his fathers nose.Madame Pince is also described as hook nosed.What are the odds of having parents who are both hook-nosed?

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haymoni - Jun 15, 2006 5:46 pm (#43 of 322)

Maybe it is the Snape family home.

Tobias may have been an only child and Severus inherited it.

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zelmia - Jun 15, 2006 6:28 pm (#44 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I don't think Eileen Prince would want to live in a muggle neighborhood....

Why would you think someone who is happy to marry a Muggle wouldn't want to live in a Muggle neighbourhood? I guess that doesn't make sense to me.

By the way, I'm not a Mod, but let's try to stay on topic here, folks.

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Solitaire - Jun 15, 2006 8:59 pm (#45 of 322)

Number Twelve Grimmauld Place was in a Muggle neighborhood: "Borrowed it from Dumbledore," growled Moody, pocketing the Put-Outer. "That'll take care of any Muggles looking out of the window, see? Now come on, quick."

It also does not sound like 12GP was in a particularly upscale location: The grimy fronts of the surrounding houses were not welcoming; some of them had broken windows, glimmering dully in the light from the streetlamps, paint was peeling from many of the doors, and heaps of rubbish lay outside several sets of front steps.

It would seem that even Wizards like Mr. and Mrs. Black, who subscribe to the pure-blood theories, have no problem living in a rundown Muggle neighborhood. I wonder why Bella would think it an additional reason to mistrust Snape ...

Solitaire

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virginiaelizabeth - Jun 15, 2006 9:57 pm (#46 of 322)

SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
That is intresting Solitaire, maybe she personally wouldn't want to live amounst muggles, though I did think that most witches and wizards did live amoung muggles, because the only enitrely magical town in England is supposedley Hogsmeade, so I would think that they all live amongst the muggles in some fashion. It is an odd comment for her to make, and quite a big assumption. Maybe she meant pure-bloods, maybe just wizards and witches in general,either way it's a bit strange.

We are straying a bit off the topic of Spinner's End, so we should try to get back on track!

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Solitaire - Jun 15, 2006 11:28 pm (#47 of 322)

My post deals with Bella's comment about Spinner's End as a Muggle dunghill. I simply offered the example of Sirius Black's parents, whose family home is also in a rundown Muggle area. I believe my post is on topic.

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Dobby Socks - Jun 16, 2006 2:12 am (#48 of 322)

Good point about 12GP, Solitare. I think your post is on topic and brings up a useful comparison.

Solitare, I think Bella is looking for any reason to distrust Snape. However, I think her comment about the neighborhood falls more into the realm of insulting or denigrating him rather than speculating on his trustworthiness.

One thing that leapt out at me in the description of Spinner’s End is this: They had stepped directly into a tiny sitting room, which had the feeling of a dark padded cell.

Quite an odd way to describe it, and one which I don’t see literally fitting with the rest of the description (walls of books, threadbare sofa, air of neglect, etc.)

I’d bet that the entire description of Spinner’s End, while also being literal, could be read as symbolic of Snape’s inner life (I’m choosing that term carefully since it might fit better than mind or even soul.)

Any thoughts on this? I think it’s too odd a description by JKR to let slip by.

Padded cell certainly connotes insanity, which matches the description of Snape in “Flight of the Prince” after Harry calls him a coward: his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them. Fittingly, the Unbreakable Vow, which lead to this situation, was made in Spinner’s End.

The padded cell also reminds me of occlumency.

The books = knowledge (and might also foreshadow the potions text.)

The air of neglect indicates Snape’s ignoring (until the end of HBP or until he hatches the plan with Dumbledore… depending on your preference) that which could actually redeem him – truly looking out for and helping Harry (not just saving his life several times and mistreating him in class, but treating him with respect, nurturing him to the extent of Snape’s capabilities, and acknowledging the things they have in common in order to build some kind of bridge.)

More literally, the air of neglect seems to suggest Snape is rarely there. But it could also point to a disregard for material things. Or, if this was his parents’ home, he might be too angry, or damaged by the kind of abuse we saw when Harry broke into his mind, to want to take care of it at all.

It actually seems a bit like a typical bachelor pad to me. Although I think Snape is beyond the age where this is fitting.

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haymoni - Jun 16, 2006 5:38 am (#49 of 322)

The neighborhood of #12 could have been quite grand at one time, but has run down over time.

Spinner's End seems to be a mill town, so it was probably always filled with middleclass workers and their families.

If Snape is entertaining Death Eaters on a regular basis and if Wormtail is to remain hidden, he can't be out in the open anywhere. I kind of got the feeling that this house was the only one that was occupied. I'll have to re-read to be sure.

If it was a home that they "stole" like Sluggy did, I don't think the books would have been there - they would have been stolen if the house had been abandoned.

JKR uses the word "neglect". That implies that you should be taking care of something, but you are choosing not to do so. I think she would have used words like "abandoned" if it was just some house they were using.

I'm sure Snape knows how to protect a house from Muggles, even if he chooses not to live there.

I'm guessing it's just a "safe house" to be used by DEs, but I still think it is Snape's - either his outright or his family home.

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wynnleaf - Jun 16, 2006 5:48 am (#50 of 322)

Dobby Socks,

Good observations.

Because I thought of the house as Snape's childhood home, when I read the description, the "padded cell" phrase evoked a feeling about his attitude toward his homelife. That is, that perhaps he saw his past, and in particular his home, as a prison. This meshed for me with the OOTP picture of the teen on his bed shooting flies -- the feeling of bored and trapped. The air of neglect reflects both his homelife (neglected?), as well as his desire to forget about it. He rarely if ever visited until he came back with Wormtail. I got a sense that this was a place that he intentionally had not returned to often.

As for the books, like you I had a sense of knowledge. But knowledge that was the only comfort in the midst of what is otherwise a prison and a neglected life.

The dust covered wine bottle (am I recalling that correctly?), may reflect a sense of comfort and refinement in the midst of what are otherwise shabby and poor surroundings.

The "feel" that I get is Snape's desiring knowledge and the small refinements of life, to move beyond this poor, shabby, neglected childhood prison.

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Spinner's End Dissected (Post 51 to 100)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:12 am

Choices - Jun 16, 2006 1:23 pm (#51 of 322)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
"the air of neglect" - Doesn't that somewhat describe Snape himself? Greasy hair, yellow teeth, gray underpants - he doesn't take care of himself or his home.

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Detail Seeker - Jun 16, 2006 1:31 pm (#52 of 322)

Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Living in a neglected, evwen disbanded surrounding might be the best, that can happen to a wizard family, that lives in a town and no, like the Weasleys or the Malfoys, in the country. Having not many muggles - and unintelligent muggles, if unavoidable, in your surroundig, allows your children to grow up magic, not having to stay inside with the magic they can do and tend to do before going to Hogwarts. Imagine e.g. Bella or Regulus trying to play Quidditch in an inhabited place.

So, it would be logical, if wizarding families had seen to it, that the surrounding of their houses is not really a place, where Muggles would prefer to stay and so leave. A house in a disbanded mill area would do nicely, too. And without looking neglected, it would really stand out within that surrounding, if no Fidelius,Unplottability or other safety measures protect it.

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zelmia - Jun 19, 2006 7:15 pm (#53 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Good point, DS - if I understand you correctly. For my part, I'm inclined to think that Spinner's End is indeed where Snape grew up and for the reasons you outline. An urban neighbourhood that is slowly succumbing to decay is probably much safer for the average Wizard on the street.

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zelmia - Jun 20, 2006 1:53 am (#54 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I guess I'm just curious as to why Narcissa was in such a hurry to get there. She was running up the alley, etc. Bellatrix had to hurry to catch up with her. Why? Was there some deadline that wouldn't allow her to use the Unbreakbable Vow?

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Dobby Socks - Jun 20, 2006 2:27 am (#55 of 322)

wynnleaf, The “padded cell” still reminds me much more of a mental institution than a jail, although a jail may “read” better in context. I also think Spinner’s End is quite likely Snape’s childhood home, so everything you speculated about makes sense to me. Regarding the padded cell, if his father was abusive, there may well have been some mental imbalance there, perhaps even extreme. If the abuser was a maternal uncle, the mental illness angle may still hold even if he didn’t reside in the household.

If you read it as a jail metaphor, not just for Snape reliving those feelings from childhood, but in a broader sense, his cell mate in effect is Wormtail. Which I would get a real kick out of setting up if I were Voldemort, considering their history at Hogwarts (and particularly if the Snape/Lily history holds water). At any rate I’m sure Snape is enjoying to no end ordering Pettigrew around. And it serves two purposes for LV: Wormtail can spy on the spy, and LV can get Wormtail out of his hair with Snape as an available babysitter.

I do wonder why JKR paired them as roomies. It feels almost too deliberately set up. Two people who might be bound to help Harry, but who ostensibly hate each other, sharing living quarters under Voldemort’s orders? Personally, I have no faith that Wormtail will honor his Life Debt. It appears to be based on honor, a characteristic IMO Wormtail is devoid of. But I can easily see Jo taking the opposite route. I do have faith that Snape will help Harry in some way. So what are the possible scenarios here?

Back to the house itself… I was just having a stray brainstorm in my last post that was too tempting to avoid. Realistically, we could take the “air of neglect” at face value. The full quotation from the text is “The place had an air of neglect, as though it was not usually inhabited.” So it’s possible Snape has a second home or spends most of his time at Hogwarts. Oddly, Wormtail states in front of the sisters that Snape is making him clean the house. I’m sure he would be doing this job reluctantly, but the way the house is described gives the impression that it’s not really tended to in any way. And, yes, the wine bottle is dusty. If Wormtail isn’t actually cleaning, and is lying to Bella and Narcissa about it, why did he do that? What might be going on instead? A conspiracy against their Dark Lord as you suggested wynnleaf? Wouldn’t Bella notice the state of the house anyway? Or is the situation too emotionally charged to focus on anything else?

Choices, I like what you mentioned about neglect. Snape neglects his appearance so why not his surroundings? I do have mixed feelings about this, but one side of that argument unfortunately comes from supposition based on almost no concrete evidence in canon. I started out as a book purist, but now I’ve seen the movies too many times (which I don’t even really like) and read too much fan fiction, and I think I’m getting a lot of interference on those fronts. Ignoring that, and just going by my impression from the books, I think Snape is someone who is strongly focused on interior things. He is such an introvert that I can see him as person who ignores the appearance of many things including his surroundings. And because he is so unable to let go of his past, it might even be a point of pride. He can flaunt the aspects others have ridiculed him for: he doesn’t have time to worry about such trivialities because he is occupied by everything going on in his mind, and by perfecting that side of himself. Reminds me of the story about Einstein whose wardrobe consisted of five identical suits so he would never have to waste his time figuring out what to wear.

On the other hand, Severus certainly is meticulous when it comes to potions classes, and I think this is where the interference comes in. People extrapolate that into his being meticulous about exterior things in general. And I can see that possible part of him, too. There’s a reason why so many fanfics incorporate that perceived side of him. I think it could go either way and we just don’t know enough about him from canon to make that decision. Anyway, I don’t want to turn this into the Snape thread. But I’ll bet there were a lot of happy fanfic authors out there who appreciated Jo evidently showing his good taste in wine in “Spinner’s End.”

He is also very particular about word choice and the way he expresses himself verbally. This can be viewed as either an inner oriented quality (an expression of intellect) or an outer directed quality: a chance to flaunt those skills and be noticed for it.

Snape desiring a better life than he knew in childhood is epitomized in wynnleaf’s comment The "feel" that I get is Snape's desiring knowledge and the small refinements of life, to move beyond this poor, shabby, neglected childhood prison. Which I can’t say I disagree with.

There is more I wanted to respond to, but this post is long enough. Choices, I think I’m definitely envious of your ability to compose such short and pithy posts.

One last thing: Narcissa is described as looking drowned near the beginning of the chapter… is this a figurative description of desperation, near hopelessness, and high emotion or is it a foreshadowing of death? I think it’s the first, but it bothered me so I’m interested in any opinions.

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Magic Words - Jun 20, 2006 8:32 am (#56 of 322)

Narcissa is described as looking drowned near the beginning of the chapter… is this a figurative description of desperation, near hopelessness, and high emotion or is it a foreshadowing of death? I think it’s the first, but it bothered me so I’m interested in any opinions.

Dobby Socks, on the thread "Harry's blood and harmony," post 133 (sorry I'm not sure how to make a link), Round Pink Spider used the description of Narcissa looking like a drowned person as part of the argument that she and Snape represent a Red King/White Queen pairing. It has some kind of alchemical significance.

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wynnleaf - Jun 20, 2006 9:53 am (#57 of 322)

Magic Words,

While Round Pink Spider may be on to something, and perhaps there will be some future between Severus and Narcissa (assuming he lives and something more happens to Lucius), it was interesting to me to note that during her entire discussion with Snape, when she pleads for his help, she uses his friendship with Lucius and Draco's liking for Snape both as reasons for why he might protect Draco. But she does not play any tactic of reminding Snape of any relationship between themselves -- past, present or future.

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zelmia - Jun 20, 2006 11:01 am (#58 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Indeed, Wynn Leaf. Nor does she offer to make it worth Snape's while in any other way - say a pile of galleons? That is another peculiar element to this little scene. Could Narcissa's tactic of invoking Draco's fondness for Snape simply been because Bella was there? And would that tactic have been altered in Bella's absence?

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TheSaint - Jun 20, 2006 6:24 pm (#59 of 322)

Should the harmony of elements come into play, many people are speculating that Draco would be the water element. In order to bring him into the fold, something extreme would need to occur to make him turn. Right now he is to scared of Voldemort and his parent's lives are still at stake. Should Voldemort 'punish' Draco with his father's death or both, I think this would be enough to push him onto the Order's doorstep. Hint or red herring is yet to be seen.

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cindysuewho45 - Jun 23, 2006 2:32 am (#60 of 322)

Hi all, This looks like a good thread. I have just looked at some of the posts, I will go back and read more. Just wanted to say that I too have been thinking about what was said by Snape, about Wormtail. "Wormtail has lately taken to listening at doors. I don't know what he means by it." This could play into book 7. LV could of asked Wormtail to spy on Snape. Wormtail could just be doing it on his own. And the info. that he ends up getting could end up helping Harry. He still owes Harry for his life, and will need to be paying him back.????????????????

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journeymom - Jun 23, 2006 2:34 pm (#61 of 322)

Also, Snape hears the first prophecy when he was listening at the door in the bar. He's done his own listening at doors.

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zelmia - Jul 10, 2006 12:13 pm (#62 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
A couple of other things that I find curious.
(1) Why is Bella so distrustful of Snape in the first place? Is it just because Snape is on Dumbledore's staff? Or does it have more to do with the fact the Snape is never really around whenever there's "work" to be done? Or is it simply because Bella is jealous of Snape's apparent intimacy with the Dark Lord himself?

(2) I notice that Narcissa never really tries to nullify Bella's concerns. She says only that if the Dark Lord trusts Snape, that should be good enough for Bella. This is interesting because though Narcissa says this, though she appears to believe in Snape's loyalty, she is racing to get to Snape's house behind her Dark Lord's back. Could it be that Narcissa really doesn't care where Snape's loyalties lie?
This would actually make a bit of sense with regard to her motives for asking him to take the Unbreakable Vow. This way, regardless of who Snape is actually working for, Draco's relative safety is ensured.

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cindysuewho45 - Jul 10, 2006 12:38 pm (#63 of 322)

Hi all, You know what I like about this part of the book, is that how Snape is being treated by Bella is how, he Snape, treated Sirus at #12 G.P.that he is never out there helping etc.. And I remember Lupin saying how DD trusted Snape, like Narcissa said LV trusted Snape.

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deletedaccount - Jul 10, 2006 12:41 pm (#64 of 322)

Similar to what people say when Harry says something about Snape, that if Dumbledore trusts Snape that should be good enough for Harry.

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wynnleaf - Jul 11, 2006 11:44 am (#65 of 322)

The ideas of "trust" are probably very different, though. What Lupin means when he says, "DD trusts him," is probably quite different from what Narcissa might mean when she thinks LV trusts Snape. After all, I doubt if any of the DE's really think that LV truly trusts anyone. Whereas the Order members probably have a fairly good idea that DD's trust is the real thing.

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zelmia - Jul 11, 2006 2:21 pm (#66 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
That's a good point Wynnleaf. But I believe that both sides "trust" Snape in the same way. Each side believes Snape is wholly loyal to their particular cause. Again, this makes me wonder why Bella does not believe Snape is entirely loyal to Voldemort. What has Snape done - or not done, I suppose - to arouse Bella's suspicions?

But a thought suddenly occurs to me: Kreacher. Kreacher could very well have seen Snape coming and going at 12GP and reported this to Bella and/or Narcissa during one of his... disappearances. Narcissa apparently thinks nothing of it. But Bellatrix senses something may not be quite right about this.
Ironic, in my opinion, because up to this chapter, we had been given to believe that Bella was so blindly devoted to Voldemort. Now it seems clear that Bella has some small capacity to form her own opinions.
Perhaps this is what Narcissa's comment ("If the Dark Lord trusts Severus....") refers to: Bella's prior blind devotion. Perhaps even Narcissa is surprised to hear her sister question Voldemort's trust of Snape.

Hmm.... This little theory may not work after all. Firstly because Bella complains that Snape has not yet given the location of the HQ for the OP. Secondly, if I recall correctly, Kreacher was forbidden to tell anyone anything about the OP meeting there.
Even so, at some point Bella may be able to put two and two together.

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virginiaelizabeth - Jul 11, 2006 2:32 pm (#67 of 322)

SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
I would think she would know that Kreacher lived at 12GP, so she would beable to put two and two together. Or does she not know this?

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zelmia - Jul 11, 2006 2:44 pm (#68 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Yes, she does, I'm sure of it Virginia. But Kreacher had been forbidden to mention anything about the OP. Still, he may have been able to find a way around this injunction, as did Dobby when he came to Harry in CS.

Soul Search makes some very astute points regarding Snape and Bella in the Spinner's End chapter over on the Bella Thread. I hope Soul Search won't mind my posting a link to those very thought-provoking observations: HERE

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Solitaire - Jul 11, 2006 4:13 pm (#69 of 322)

Since Kreacher was in communication with Narcissa, I think we must accept that Bella knows where he is. I find it curious that Bella is unable to figure out the Order's headquarters. It makes me wonder if the Black sisters ever did visit 12GP. If she had been there, wouldn't she remember the location? Just wondering ... I have a hard time understanding how the Fidelius and Unplottable charms work when someone already knows and has been to a particular location.

Solitaire

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Magic Words - Jul 11, 2006 4:48 pm (#70 of 322)

Solitaire, my take is that she knows the location of 12GP--but she doesn't know it is Order headquarters, and will not be able to find that out (even if she presses her nose up against the window).

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zelmia - Jul 11, 2006 4:58 pm (#71 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Unless of course the OPHQ has been permanently moved. My unsolicited advice to the OP would be to move back to 12GP since, with Dumbledore's demise, it is now permanently protected.

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wynnleaf - Jul 12, 2006 7:31 am (#72 of 322)

But I believe that both sides "trust" Snape in the same way. Each side believes Snape is wholly loyal to their particular cause.

I disagree with this. A quick read through Spinners End (I could certainly have missed something), and I couldn't find any instance where either Snape or Bella said that LV trusted him. Narissa said it, but Bella didn't agree and Snape didn't say he did. Snape characterized LV's thoughts toward him as being satisfied with his answers, pleased (with some actions), doesn't complain (about other actions), but does not characterize LV as trusting him.

I can't imagine LV ever telling DE's that he trusts Snape. But Dumbledore says it over and over. As far as I can tell, DD trusts Snape, but we have no real evidence that LV does. Besides that, JKR has DD use the word "trust" so many times that I think we have to place a certain degree of importance on the word itself and its definition. One definition is "Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing." Sorry, I don't think that LV "trusts" anyone, including Snape. And as I've often said on other threads, DD's "trust" in Snape appears, from the frequent use of the same word, to be true trust, not dependence on something that forces a person to do something, or being "satisfied" with answers or pleased with someone's actions, or whatever is like LV. Trust is different -- DD trusts, LV does not.

Further, as regards the DE's and Order members, my impression is that other DE's besides Bella aren't sure of Snape's loyalty and don't necessarily trust him based on LV's being satisfied with him. But while Order members may wonder about DD's trust in Snape, they seem mostly willing to place trust in Snape on DD's word.

On the knowledge of where 12GP is located... I think using a secret keeper to guard the location not only keeps people from telling others where the location is, it also seems to make those who used to know the location of a place, unable to locate it again.

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cindysuewho45 - Jul 12, 2006 8:53 am (#73 of 322)

Hi all, Well I will agree with part of what you are saying. Like DD says, LV will never truly have a friend, he dose not need them or want them as friends. LV wants followers, to do his bidding for him, to serve him. However I do feel that LV does trust Snape, or should I say that LV trust himself to know weather or not Snape is telling the truth about things. As far as other DE's trusting Snape go's. I feel that it is just like with the Order and Snape. Not very many would trust him if it were not for DD or LV's opinion of him. The exception would be Mr. and Mrs. Malfoy, they both trust Snape.

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zelmia - Jul 12, 2006 3:22 pm (#74 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Hmm.. Wynnleaf. Certainly an intersting comparison. In that case I would have to agree with you.

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zelmia - Jul 17, 2006 2:25 pm (#75 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Another thing that occurred to me was the stark contrast between Narcissa's behaviour at Spinner's End and at Madame Malkin's. Again, Spinner's End is the first time we ever hear Narcissa speak; it's the first time we see her as a real character (vs. a simple cameo at the QWC in GF).
Spinner's End shows us a woman (or Witch, if you prefer) who is acting out of absolute desperation. She is terrified, worried, and apparently willing to put even her own safety aside for the sake of her only child.
Compare this person with that of the overtly hostile, hateful and cruel individual who threatens Harry and company at Madame Malkin's shop. Still, perhaps "Cissy's" bark may be worse than her bite. When Harry challenges her to take her best shot, so to speak ("Look at that. [Voldemort]'s not here now..."), she walks out of the shop.
I find this slightly odd, coming from someone who must surely blame Harry, at least in part, for the imprisonment of her husband - not to mention the virtual bounty Voldemort has placed on Lucius's head. Lucius whipped out his wand at Harry with relatively little provocation in the closing moments of CS. Narcissa, who arguably has a much more "legitimate" beef with Harry, simply leaves the scene of the confrontation. Curious....

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Miss Amanda - Jul 17, 2006 5:54 pm (#76 of 322)

Narcissa seems to have no power behind her, a vastly different situation from her husband in CS. Lucius continues to wield considerable political influence until book 5. For me, she seems to be a family-driven character, actually fairly shallowly sketched for us. She dislikes basically those we would expect her to dislike, and she shoots a veiled death threat to those who threaten her family at Madam Malkin's.

Far more interesting to me is Snape's reaction. If Snape values logic and hiding true feelings, why would Narcissa cry (if she is logical at all)? Why would we believe that Narcissa's tears would soften Snape's point of view?

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Soul Search - Jul 17, 2006 6:49 pm (#77 of 322)

I think Bellatrix's presense at Spinner's End created most of the interpersonal dynamic we have seen.

It was Bellatrix's needling that pushed Snape to take the unbreakable vow, and especially the "complete Draco's task" part. Snape, clearly, thought it important to convince Bellatrix that he was Voldemort's man. Snape would have found some excuse not to make the vow, had Bellatrix not been present.

Similarly, Narcissa approached Snape differently than if Bellatrix had not followed her to Spinner's End. We have too little information about Snape and the Malfoys to know how Narcissa would have played Snape, but we might suggest more on the relationships between her, Lucius, or Draco. Instead, we got tears and pleading; lame acting, I thought. I don't think we saw the real Narcissa in Spinner's End; she assumed a role she thought would achieve her goal: saving Draco.

I think we saw more the real Narcissa Black Malfoy in the robe shop.

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Magic Words - Jul 17, 2006 7:25 pm (#78 of 322)

I'm going to be an optimist and cast a vote for Narcissa actually caring that much about Draco. There's no reason Spinner's End and the robe shop can't both be the real Narcissa. The circumstances are entirely different.

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Laura W - Jul 18, 2006 1:44 am (#79 of 322)

I'm with you, Magic. Call me a sucker, but I too think we saw the real Narcissa in both places.

I strongly reject the idea that her actions at Spinner's End were "lame acting," Soul Search. I think she was genuinely terrified for her son. Also, for the first time, she did not even have the physical and moral support of her influential husband there with her (protecting both his interests and his family by greasing palms and/or using threats). It was all up to Cissy, and she was scared. It is a side of her she would show Severus Snape, favoured Death Eater - as she thinks - and long-time friend of Lucius. But she would NEVER show that side of her (the Spinner's End side) to that upstart brat Harry Potter: it would be demeaning.

What you called "overtly hostile, hateful and cruel" behaviour in the robe shop, zelmia, Cissy would undoubtedly think of as appropriately proud behavior. She is a Black, after all!

I could be wrong about all this though.

Laura

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cindysuewho45 - Jul 18, 2006 3:39 am (#80 of 322)

Hi all, I know that Bella was needling Snape, and she was doing to him what he had done to Sirus at #12 GP. But again I have to say that Snape has played, one or the other, DD or LV. All of this time, he has dealt with the greatest of them all! Why would he let Bella make him make a life changing mistake like that? The only thing that makes since to me is that Snape at one time loved Narcissa. And could not let her down.

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haymoni - Jul 18, 2006 6:29 am (#81 of 322)

zelmia - I have suggested that the Spinner's End chapter was added to the original story that JKR created years before.

Certainly, the Narcissa in the robe shop is much more like the "dung-under-her-nose" version that we saw in the top box in GOF and seems to be more of what we expect.

Since Spinner's End is written in 3rd person, it seems to answer a lot of our questions and the rest of the story could survive without it, I think it was not part of the original story.

Just my guess - I have nothing to base this on.

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Soul Search - Jul 18, 2006 6:50 am (#82 of 322)

Laura W,

I think Narcissa was "acting" for Snape.

Yes, she is terrified for Draco. And, indeed, she would do anything to protect him. "Anything" included playing the distraught, whimpering, scared mother to Snape.

Look how she was with Bellatrix on the walk to Snape's house. Narcissa was determined. She knew exactly what she wanted, had, to do. She didn't care about Voldemort. She even threatened Bellatrix. No pleading or whimpering. Very determined.

Then, at Snape's, she broke down. She cried, she pleaded. She seems to have lost control. Yet, she managed to get Snape to make just the right unbreakable vow. That was planned. Indeed, her whole act for Snape was planned. And, it worked: Draco survived.

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haymoni - Jul 18, 2006 7:02 am (#83 of 322)

I don't have my book with me - do I ever? - but I think Snape says something that causes her to break down.

It was either that she shouldn't disobey Voldy's orders or when Snape tells her that Voldy is disappointed with Lucius and there is a possibility that he is giving this task to Draco to punish them for Lucius's mess.

I didn't think there was anything fake about her breaking down. She tells Bella that there isn't anything she wouldn't do, but I think she can still start crying over how desperate things seem without trying to pull one over on Snape.

Snape should have refused to assist her and should have told Voldy about her treachery. If Bella was smart, she should have gone right to Voldy about what happened.

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Ginerva Potter - Jul 18, 2006 7:45 am (#84 of 322)

cindysuewho45 - The only thing that makes since to me is that Snape at one time loved Narcissa. And could not let her down.

I just have one comment about this statement - I think that Snape is very smart and he has been doing his job for a long time. I think with the unbreakable vow, it wasn't about Narcissa, but about saving Draco and keeping him from doing the killing. Also, I think that he realizes sometimes you have to lose a battle in order win the war. JM2K...

Ginny

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Veritaserum - Jul 18, 2006 8:17 am (#85 of 322)

Go Jays!
So what if the entire thing is a set-up by Bellatrix and Narcissa ordered by Voldemort to get Snape to take the Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore, because he knows Draco will fail and dares not try it himself? That's something I've never considered before...

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Soul Search - Jul 18, 2006 9:10 am (#86 of 322)

Ginerva Potter,

You may be onto something: "... and keeping him from doing the killing."

If I review Spinner's End and the scene with Draco and Snape after they left Slughorn's party, that motive becomes clear for Snape.

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Solitaire - Jul 18, 2006 9:12 am (#87 of 322)

If, as some have suggested, Snape and Dumbledore have pre-arranged Dumbledore's death (or what appears to be his death), then perhaps Snape agreed to the vow because the end result would be the same anyway. Dumbledore would be (or appear to be) dead, and Snape's having cast the apparent AK would give him the appearance of really being in Voldemort's camp. I'm just tossing this idea out, because I don't know yet if I believe the pre-arrangement theory or not.

Solitaire

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journeymom - Jul 18, 2006 10:51 am (#88 of 322)

I'm torn about Narcissa's behavior and appearance at Spinner's End. She's described as looking "drowned" when Snape first opens the door. Her hands are shaking when she sits down. But there's this scene, p.30 UK:

[Bellatrix] "'...I don't trust you, Snape, as you very well know!'"

"Narcissa let out a noise that might have been a -dry- sob and covered her face with her hands."

What is a dry sob? Sounds like there are no real tears there. Bellatrix proceeds to give Snape the long string of questions and, "Behind her Narcissa sat motionless, her face still hidden in her hands."

p.37, "She closed her eyes and two large tears seeped from beneath her eyelids. 'The Dark Lord has forbidden me to speak of it,' Narcissa continued, her eyes still closed."

p38 , Not until Bella points out the Draco "isn't shrinking away from his duty, he seems glad of a chance to prove himself, excited at the prospect-'" does Narcissa begin "to cry in earnest, gazing beseechingly all the while at Snape."

From here to the end of the chapter Narcissa's behavior all seems to be that of a sincerely desperate mother. So perhaps it's both. Narcissa arrived at Spinner's End, desperately prepared to put on an act of crocodile tears. This quickly descended into real histrionics.

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haymoni - Jul 18, 2006 11:33 am (#89 of 322)

I thought a dry sob was like a moan.

Here she had gone to Snape for help - she obviously did not ask Bella to tag along and here she is bringing up some mess from the past about not trusting Snape - the one person that Narcissa thought could help her.

Maybe it was an "Oh-no-here-we-go-again-she's-on-one-of-her-rants" kind of sob.

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zelmia - Jul 18, 2006 1:28 pm (#90 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
"I have suggested that the Spinner's End chapter was added to the original story that JKR created years before."
Haymoni, I don't recall ever saying this. Were you quoting me or simply addressing that remark to me?
However, I like your interpretation of why Narcissa may have let out a "dry sob": Her sister's on another one of her tirades.

********************************
I also agree that Spinner's End and Madame Malkin's were both the real Narcissa, just in different circumstances. That makes a lot of sense to me.

I may be a big fat sucker, but I believe Narcissa's "performance" at Spinner's End was genuine. I also think that a certain percentage of her anguish (again, which I believe was very real) came from the fact that a part of her absolutely agreed with Bella. She was taking a HUGE risk in going to Snape like this and she knew it - particularly because Bella could very well be spot on with her assessment of Snape. With this in mind, her remark (which I am paraphrasing) "If the Dark Lord trusts [Snape] that should be good enough" now almost seems more a way to convince herself rather than her sister.
And I think Haymoni makes a good point. Perhaps in Narcissa's mind, Bella's behaviour toward Snape nearly ruins any chance Narcissa may have of getting Snape's help.

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Choices - Jul 18, 2006 4:41 pm (#91 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think her "performance" was genuine, but she may have embellished it a bit for Snape's benefit.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 18, 2006 10:34 pm (#92 of 322)

Edited Jul 18, 2006 11:27 pm
Solitaire, this is an intersting idea

If, as some have suggested, Snape and Dumbledore have pre-arranged Dumbledore's death (or what appears to be his death), then perhaps Snape agreed to the vow because the end result would be the same anyway. Dumbledore would be (or appear to be) dead, and Snape's having cast the apparent AK would give him the appearance of really being in Voldemort's camp. I'm just tossing this idea out, because I don't know yet if I believe the pre-arrangement theory or not.Solitaire, "+ Spinner's End Dissected" #87, 18 Jul 2006 9:12 am

I would assert that if Snape and Dumbledore did prearrange Dumbledore's death and in some way orchestrated events to unfold in the manner that they did that Dumbledore had an overreaching purpose.

Is it possible that Dumbledore's purpose was to achieve a unity and a cohesiveness among the diverse elements opposed to Voldemort that had not existed prior to his death and that his sacrifice and transformation was necessary for Harry progression to the next stage of his development. In a sense his sacrifice at the end of HBP I would argue is akin to the sacrifice made by Ron in PS. In the sense that in the same way Ron directed Harry and Hermione through test of the Wizard Chess game in their attempts to keep the stone safe and his sacrifice allowed Harry to proceed forward by checkmating the opposing king. Similarly Dumbledore had up until the time of his death been the leader of the Order of the Phoenix and orchestrated the operations of the Order. I believe that Dumbledore's death had at least two effects on Harry. First, I believe that it cemented fully his resolve to see Voldemort's evil vanquished. Second, I would argued that it brought about a new dimension to the Harry's demonstrations of compassion and mercy.

"And so I did," said Dumbledore placidly. "I told you everything I know. "I told you everything I know. From this point forth, we shall be leaving the firm foundation of fact and journeying together through the murky marshes into the the thickets of wildest guess work. From here on in I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher who believed the time was ripe for a cheese cauldron." "But, you think you are right?" said Harry. "Naturally, I do but, as I have already proven to you, I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being - forgive me - rather cleverer than most men my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger." (HBP Large Print Edition page 257)

This passage reminded me of a speech given by Learned Hand in 1944 called The Spirit of Liberty.

Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies there it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it. And what is this liberty which must lie within the hearts of men and women? It is not the ruthless, unbridled will; it is not freedom to do as one likes. That is the denial of liberty and leads straight to its overthrow. A society in which men recognize no check upon their freedom soon becomes a society where freedom is the possession of a savage few; as we have learned to our sorrow. What then is the spirit of liberty? I cannot define it; I can only tell you my own faith. The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which seeks to understand the minds of other men and women; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which weighs their interests alongside its own without bias; the spirit of liberty remembers that not even a sparrow falls to earth unheeded . . . .

I would assert that Dumbledore's murder, was in a way a martyrdom because, he died fighting for a cause he felt was right, just and worth giving his life to see accomplished. Dumbledore was the embodiment of the noble knight who although he is weary wishes to see his task done much like the Man of La Mancha.

The Impossible Dream

To dream the impossible dream, To fight the unbeatable foe, To bear with unbearable sorrow, To run where the brave dare not go, To right the unrightable wrong, To love pure and chaste from afar, To try when your arms are too weary, To reach the unreachable star,

This is my quest, to follow that star, No matter how hopeless, No matter how far, To fight for the right, without question or pause, To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause,

And I know if I'll only be true, to this glorious quest, That my heart will lie will lie peaceful and calm, when I'm laid to my rest,

And the world will be better for this: That one man, scorned and covered with scars, Still strove, with his last ounce of courage, To reach the unreachable star.

I would assert that Dumbledore's death transformed him not only into a martyr in the cause of freedom from the tyranny and oppression offered by Voldemort. I would also suggest that Dumbledore's death transformed into the spirit of that liberty and freedom.

This evolution illustrated by the fact that not only serves as the focal point of the resistance that actively opposes Voldemort and the Death Eaters until his death while also serving as the inspirational sage and guide that directs the efforts of the those whom he leads and others that are arrayed with him. I would contend that perhaps Dumbledore's death had a good consequences in that it brought together diverse groups of people and above all else it inspired the genesis of an evolution in Harry and his friends.

Conversely, I would argue that the freedom of the Wizarding world is endangered and oppressed by Voldemort and his savage Death Eaters and that have constrained the freedom of the population because of their acts of terror. Voldemort and his followers seek to dominate others while destroying the freedom and liberty that exists in the Wizarding World

I would also argue that Severus was instrumental in bringing this transformation to pass and that even though Narcissa may have known of Voldemort plan that neither she nor Bellatrix fully understood the consequences of the Unbreakable Vow, as opposed to Severus who understood the consequences all too well.

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smurf - Jul 18, 2006 10:45 pm (#93 of 322)

The only problem I see with Snape and Dumbledore arranging Dumbledore's death is that even though it makes Snape look like a baddie and gets him closer to Voldemort, it means the Order will never trust or forgive him so any information he gathers would be useless.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 18, 2006 11:51 pm (#94 of 322)

My feeling about what Narcissa said to Harry in Madam Malkin's was that it wasn't a threat directed toward Harry at all but toward Dumbledore. She said that Dumbledore wouldn't always be around to protect him, and now Dumbledore isn't around. I never thought her comment was about Harry after reading the whole book, although I wondered the first read-through.

I think that's why JKR had the Spinner's End chapter before the Draco's Detour chapter.

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Solitaire - Jul 18, 2006 11:59 pm (#95 of 322)

That is a lot to digest, Nathan. I'll chew on it! I loved the Spirit of Liberty quote. It is one of my favorites. As to Dumbledore's death bringing together diverse groups within the Wizarding community ... we do not yet know that this will happen, although I have long seen Harry as a possible rallying point.

Edit: I think Narcissa's comment certainly proved to be prophetic. I also consider it a threat to Dumbledore and, indirectly, Harry.

Solitaire

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zelmia - Jul 19, 2006 12:12 am (#96 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Yes, Nathan. Ditto what Solitaire said. Very nice thoughts to ponder!

Indeed, Narcissa's remark does seem to read differently the second time. Still, she did not take advantage of the fact that Dumbledore was actually not around at that very moment.

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haymoni - Jul 19, 2006 6:13 am (#97 of 322)

zelmia - No - I meant that I - haymoni - had suggested before that this chapter was an addition - possibly to answer our questions or...possibly to mislead us further.

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Choices - Jul 19, 2006 10:53 am (#98 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Smurf - "The only problem I see with Snape and Dumbledore arranging Dumbledore's death is that even though it makes Snape look like a baddie and gets him closer to Voldemort, it means the Order will never trust or forgive him so any information he gathers would be useless."

Not if Dumbledore leaves them some sort of message telling then to trust Snape regardless of the way things appear.

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haymoni - Jul 19, 2006 11:56 am (#99 of 322)

I could see Snape not really caring what the others think, knowing that all will be made clear in the end.

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wynnleaf - Jul 19, 2006 2:07 pm (#100 of 322)

I've been reading over the last few days posts and have some comments.

Is Narcissa genuine? I think so. She seems to have known Snape for a long time. She's been to his house enough times to know the way there very well. She calls upon his close friendship with Lucius (at least she thinks it's close). I don't think she could afford to fake a lot of emotion in case he realized she was faking it and refused to help her. I think she was very focused on gaining his help and made every effort to play on his good will. Her dry sob at Bella's comments about distrust was perhaps her frustration that Bella might ruin Narcissa's chances at getting Snape's help, by angering him just when Narcissa was going to make her appeal.

Was the Vow added into a prearranged plan that DD and Snape already had made? If DD and Snape planned DD's death (or fake death), it could have been either prior to Spinners End, in which case Snape simply took advantage of the Vow opportunity to work it into the plan. Or they could have planned it immediately after Spinners End in response to the complications created by the Vow. If you look carefully at the clues and indications we have of the timeline, it appears that DD was injured by the ring horcrux only a day or so prior to Spinners End, and that DD's letter to Harry mentioning the upcoming visit to Slughorn was sent only a few days after Spinners End. Of course, DD could have been in contact with Slughorn well before then. But based only on the events in the timeline that we know of, it appears that DD decided to ask Slughorn to come back to Hogwarts as potions teacher immediately after Spinners End. If that's the case, then the planning for the "death" probably started right after Spinners End, in response to the Vow.

Smurf - "The only problem I see with Snape and Dumbledore arranging Dumbledore's death is that even though it makes Snape look like a baddie and gets him closer to Voldemort, it means the Order will never trust or forgive him so any information he gathers would be useless."

There's several possibilities including the one Choices mentioned of DD leaving instructions with the Order to trust Snape. Other possibilities include 1. Snape's job in LV's camp doesn't need to be related to the Order, as it is primarily to help bring down the DE's from within. 2. Or, DD set Snape up with one trusted contact within the Order. The rest of the Order doesn't and won't know about it until after LV's death. 3. DD is himself alive and Snape and DD will be in contact. Neither plans to let the Order know about it as their plans are completely secret between the two. Just possibilities, of course.

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Spinner's End Dissected (Post 101 to 150)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:13 am

Solitaire - Jul 19, 2006 5:53 pm (#101 of 322)
Neither plans to let the Order know about it as their plans are completely secret between the two. Just possibilities, of course.

The problem with this is that it could backfire. I would hope Dumbledore had enough foresight to consider this possibility and tell someone in the Order. If he didn't, it could be Snape's neck in the noose. I do not believe everyone will simply "buy" the story that he and Dumbledore were acting "in concert" without some kind of backup.

Solitaire

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Choices - Jul 19, 2006 6:13 pm (#102 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
It would be interesting if Dumbledore left the message for Harry and Harry ends up having to be the one to vouch for Snape.

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Solitaire - Jul 19, 2006 6:15 pm (#103 of 322)

Well, thus far Harry seems unaware of any such plan.

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Choices - Jul 19, 2006 6:22 pm (#104 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Very true, but who knows what all he will discover in book 7!

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Solitaire - Jul 19, 2006 6:27 pm (#105 of 322)

I just meant that Dumbledore didn't seem to have confided any plan to Harry before he died.

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zelmia - Jul 20, 2006 12:32 am (#106 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I am of the camp who believe, as Wynnleaf suggests, that Snape and Dumbledore arranged the Death after Spinner's End "in response to the complications created by the Vow." To me this is the most logical, especially in light of the Timeline.
However, it does seem important that Dumbledore would have left some form of exoneration for Snape - if indeed Snape was acting on the Order's behalf. I don't like to second guess Madame Author, but I can't imagine Dumbledore would leave Snape hanging out to dry, even in death.
However, it is also important that the Order believe Snape is the traitor he seems - at least for now. It's quite a tightrope to walk. If there is anyone in the Order who was made privy to this arrangement, there are very few candidates who would be capable of keeping such a delicate secret. My money would be on Lupin first and foremost. After that, I would say Arther Weasley, who can be quite a dark horse at times.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 20, 2006 5:49 am (#107 of 322)

I reserve judgment on this matter because, even if Dumbledore and Snape arranged his death after the meeting at Spinner's End I would assert that the points I made in this post Nathan Zimmermann, "+ Spinner's End Dissected" #92, 18 Jul 2006 10:34 pm remain valid and are not abrogated because, I referenced prearrangement.

First, the difference in the time line does not affect my thoughts on Dumbledore's purpose because, the possibility exists that the injury Dumbledore received to his hand was one of a mortal nature that would ultimately cause his death.

Second, I would assert that Severus has a better understanding of Dumbledore's character than either Narcissa or Bellatrix does because of the working relationship they have shared over sixteen years. It is possible that this relationship allowed Severus a clearer understanding of the consequences of the Unbreakable Vow.

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wynnleaf - Jul 20, 2006 8:29 am (#108 of 322)

Nathan,

After reading your previous post a second time, it seems to me that practically all (or all) of your arguments can stand regardless of whether DD and Snape planned the tower events before or after Spinners End.

The answer to when they planned things (assuming they did, of course), does affect our view of Spinners End. If DD and Snape had already seen that DD was going to die (from the hand injury), and had already planned to stage some sort of Snape-kills-DD kind of event, then the events of Spinners End are not really important to the events of HBP, except that the Unbreakable Vow becomes a point for Harry to deepen his distrust of Snape, and a point to confuse the reader about Snape's motivations and loyalties. However, if the plan was developed after Spinners End and in response to the Vow, then the events at Spinner End become the catalyst for much of the rest of the book.

If this was "real life," I'd think the timeline aspect would make it almost a certainty that the plan was developed after Spinners End. Otherwise it's very coincidental. We know that the Vow was coincidental, because Snape was not expecting the visit by Narcissa, and did not appear to know what Draco's mission was prior to the meeting.

Suppose DD and Snape had already begun to plan DD's "death?" and then only days later Snape got a visit from Narcissa, revealing that Draco had been assigned to (we think) kill DD, and then Snape is caught, also unexpectedly, in a UV to kill DD if Draco fails. This is just too coincidental. But if handled right, coincidental things can happen in fiction without looking too suspiciously like deus ex machina. I just think the coincidence part makes it more likely that the plan was developed after Spinners End, than before.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 20, 2006 8:53 am (#109 of 322)

Wynnleaf, I am inclined to agree with your observation, the scenario you provided clarified much for me and great enhanced my understanding. I agree that Severus was not expecting Narcissa let a;lone Bellatrix and that vow was coincidential albeit a fortunate one because, it likely provided the necessary tool and sufficient impetus for Albus to see his plans fulfilled.

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journeymom - Jul 20, 2006 9:33 am (#110 of 322)

"If there is anyone in the Order who was made privy to this arrangement, there are very few candidates who would be capable of keeping such a delicate secret. My money would be on Lupin first and foremost. After that, I would say Arther Weasley, who can be quite a dark horse at times. "

Of these two people I'd choose Arthur over Lupin, simply because we've already seen Lupin's surprised reaction to learning that Snape AK Dumbledore. He could have been acting. But Arthur is a good choice.

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Solitaire - Jul 20, 2006 1:07 pm (#111 of 322)

Then again, Remus could have been surprised because he'd come to believe Snape was on the side of good ... and Arthur could have been less surprised because perhaps he had always believed Snape was a traitor. There are lots of ways to look at everything.

Solitaire

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zelmia - Jul 20, 2006 1:42 pm (#112 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Actually, after I posted that, I too thought that Arthur would be the better choice. He would certainly be in the better position to be of use in such a situation. A) He is not deep undercover amongst a pack of ravenous lunatics and B) He is a fairly high-ranking Ministry Employee.
As for Lupin's reaction to the news, I had forgotten that bit. But even so, I think Lupin would be most likely, of the Order, to accept an alternate explanation. Remember how quickly he was able to discern the truth about Sirius - Wormtail notwithstanding.

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wynnleaf - Jul 20, 2006 5:13 pm (#113 of 322)

After reading the last few posts, I looked up the "Very Frosty Christmas" chapter. It's interesting. Harry starts talking about Snape to Arthur, but Remus hears and joins in the conversation, speaking across Arthur -- so Arthur is never pushed out of the conversation. However, after his first comment to Harry that, "has it occurred to you Harry, that Snape was just pretending...." Arthur doesn't say anything more. After that, Lupin joins the conversation and has a great deal to say back and forth with Harry. But Arthur, although still there listening, doesn't say anything else in the somewhat long conversation.

I find that sort of interesting. Arthur is not really the silent type. Yet he doesn't offer any more opinions. Rather than make me think he particularly distrusts Snape (although that's possible), it makes me wonder if in fact he knows more about DD's trust in Snape, or at least Snape's missions, and doesn't say anything because -- while Lupin feels free to talk from his relative ignorance -- Arthur can't talk because he knows too much.

Plus, if someone needs to be "in" on whatever Snape's assignments are, it wouldn't be as safe to have Lupin know, since Lupin is also working sort of under-cover and is also at high risk for getting caught by those loyal to LV.

Besides, if Arthur received secret info from Snape, he could easily pass it on to the Order as info that he'd gotten from MOM sources, and vice versa, without having to reveal that he was in contact with a spy.

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zelmia - Jul 20, 2006 5:25 pm (#114 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Oooohhh!! Very interesting Wynnleaf! I think you might be on to something big there...

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Soul Search - Jul 20, 2006 6:04 pm (#115 of 322)

I like the idea that Arthur is privy to Dumbledore's and Snape's plans, and particularly that Snape is still on the side of "good."

We saw a number of immediate reactions to Snape killing Dumbledore. I think the reactions were genuine, suggesting none of those observed knew of any Dumbledore/Snape plan. We did not see Arthur's reaction to Dumbledore's death.

Arthur is in a good position: in the Order, the ministry, and trusted by Harry.

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Choices - Jul 20, 2006 6:31 pm (#116 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Arthur may indeed be smarter and more savvy than we give him credit for.....all that "love of all things Muggle" business may be a very convenient cover-up he uses to keep a low profile and make people think he is non-threatening.

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Soul Search - Jul 20, 2006 8:48 pm (#117 of 322)

Choices, I don't think Arthur has to be any more than we have seen. All that has to be is for Dumbledore and Snape to have trusted Arthur not to reveal the secret until the time was right and for others to believe Arthur when he did reveal the secret. I see no reason that the Arthur we have come to know would fit these requirements.

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zelmia - Jul 20, 2006 9:45 pm (#118 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Soul Search, are you saying you don't think Arthur is capable of being the "Secret Keeper" (if you will) for Dumbledore-Snape?

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Veritaserum - Jul 20, 2006 9:46 pm (#119 of 322)

Go Jays!
Okay, sorry to interrupt the conversation, but I brought this up a few days ago, and no one answered, so I'll try again.

What do you think about the idea that Narcissa and Bellatrix were sent to Spinners End specifically for the purpose of the Unbreakable Vow which would lead to Dumbledore's demise? Is there any evidence against this besides our interpretations of Narcissa's behavior?

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Solitaire - Jul 21, 2006 12:27 am (#120 of 322)

I was looking at Spinner's End earlier this evening, as I considered the suggestion, a number of posts back, that Narcissa was putting on an act for Snape. Before they actually get to Spinner's End, we see an interesting exchange between Bella and Narcissa. Bella has grabbed Narcissa by the arm.

"In any case, we were told not to speak of the plan to anyone. This is a betrayal of the Dark Lord's--"
"Let go, Bella! snarled Narcissa, and she drew a wand from beneath her cloak, holding it threateningly in the other's face. Bella merely laughed.
"Cissy, your own sister? You wouldn't--"
"There is nothing I wouldn't do anymore!" Narcissa breathed, a note of hysteria in her voice, and as she brought down the wand like a knife, there was another flash of light. Bella let go of her sister's arm as though burned.

Narcissa's distress seems real enough.

Solitaire

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Soul Search - Jul 21, 2006 7:34 am (#121 of 322)

zelmia, I mistyped.

Should be: I see no reason that the Arthur we have come to know wouldn't fit these requirements.

I think Arthur might be the perfect character to know Dumbledore's and Snape's secret. (I don't think "secret keeper," that is the charm, is involved.)

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Veritaserum - Jul 21, 2006 8:37 am (#122 of 322)

Go Jays!
Ah, thanks, Solitaire. I forgot about the part before they actually got to Snape's house.

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zelmia - Jul 21, 2006 8:50 am (#123 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I thought so, Soul Search. But just checking anyway

Veritaserum, I think we did discuss your question - though maybe the answer wasn't as satisfactory as you'd hoped.
I get the impression that most people have decided that the Spinner's End chapter was not any sort of pre-arranged ploy using the Black sisters, but that it was the catalyst for the scheme that Snape and Dumbledore seem to have been anticipating.
This conclusion rests primarily on the description of Narcissa's behaviour, which is described in a number of ways as desperate. I, for one, believe her to be telling the truth in this. I believe she really was terrified for her son. But she is also very shrewd. And though she may have been acting out of desperation, she certainly knew what she was doing when she conscripted Snape for the Unbreakable Vow.

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Soul Search - Jul 21, 2006 9:38 am (#124 of 322)

zelmia,

I like your use of "shrewd" to describe Narcissa. It fits her perfectly.

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haymoni - Jul 21, 2006 10:09 am (#125 of 322)

The Vow could have been calculated.

Narcissa knew she was risking a great deal in asking Snape for help, but she had to make sure that he was really going to help her.

I don't think the Vow was necessarily made to make sure that Snape killed Dumbledore. I think she wanted to make sure that Draco was protected and that the job (killing Dumbledore or whatever) would get done so that Draco would not be in trouble for not completing it.

She finally got the guy to agree to help her and now she has to make sure he doesn't weasel out of it or go and tell Voldy what they were up to.

He has to follow through or he will die.

And according to Phineas Nigellus, a Slytherin will always save his own skin.

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wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2006 2:00 pm (#126 of 322)

On the Arthur question... I read back over the last few chapters of HBP. Arthur and Molly come into the hospital wing after most of the explanations have been done about what's going on. So JKR kept them out of that scene and we don't get to see Arthur's reaction. However, his comment "Dumbledore gone." (not exact quote, but something that low-key), doesn't sound nearly as shocked and amazed as most of the people in the room. Granted, it may be nothing. But if Arthur does turn out to be in on a secret plan between DD and Snape, then there's nothing in those last few chapters that makes Arthur look really shocked. I don't think he even asks questions about DD's death or mentions Snape at all. Of course, his focus is on Bill. But, as I said, if he was in on a secret with DD, then it would make sense that he say next to nothing about DD's "death?" or Snape's involvement.

Is there an Arthur thread? Is this an interesting enough topic to continue there?

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wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2006 4:45 pm (#127 of 322)

I have to amend what I posted last. Arthur does say something else when he comes into the hospital wing. He asks McGonagall if it's true. "And Dumbledore....Minerva...is it true? Is he really...." and then later, "Dumbledore gone..." he whispered. This could work even if he knew of a plan between DD and Snape, but didn't know when it might take place. Or, of course, he could be pretending to be surprised. Or none of that -- he was truly surprised and knows no more than anyone else.

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Choices - Jul 21, 2006 5:51 pm (#128 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Almost sounds like he is in shock - his son gravely injured and Dumbledore dead (?). A double blow.

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Veritaserum - Jul 21, 2006 9:30 pm (#129 of 322)

Go Jays!
Was it Narcissa or Bellatrix who first suggested the Vow? I can't remember.

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Solitaire - Jul 21, 2006 9:59 pm (#130 of 322)

"... Severus, will you swear it? Will you make the Unbreakable Vow?" Narcissa is the one who asked it of Snape.

Solitaire

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Laura W - Jul 22, 2006 2:51 am (#131 of 322)


"Almost sounds like he is in shock"
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That was how I took it too, Choices. Remember, Arthur is a rather low-key kind of guy in terms of his personality. I feel his reaction to Dumbledore's death was shock. Although deeply affected, he isn't the kind of person to go all emotional (like Lupin or others).

Laura

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 22, 2006 4:23 am (#132 of 322)

I too think Arthur is just shocked. As to Arthur and Lupin, Arthur has a comfortable(ish) job with the ministry. While Dumbledore's death is devestating for the wizarding world his world has not come crashing down. Lupin's has. He has lost his best friends in James Potter and Sirius over the years. He has now lost his patron and mentor, one of only a few people who treated him as human not a freak - Dumbledore. Remus is also probably frightened. A Weasley lies injured because of a werewolf. Will he become an outcast from the Order as well as the rest of society?

If we look at the reactions of Arthur and Lupin in the lght of their life experiences and their characters then Arthur as in on Dumbldore's and Snape's secret plan is not as strong an idea. Which makes Snape's decision at Spinners End seem less innocent than some would suggest.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 22, 2006 5:39 am (#133 of 322)

Phelim, I am inclined to agree that Severus is less innocent than he appears to be. I would offer that the Unbreakable Vow permitted Severus a personal opportunity to strike once again at Remus and wound him, in the sense that both Severus and Sirius were never able to put to rest the grudges of the past. The grudge that Severus and the Marauders had against each other while in school have borne bitter fruit.

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cindysuewho45 - Jul 28, 2006 10:56 pm (#134 of 322)

Hi all, I am thinking that there will be something to Wormtail listening in, on Snape. It may be that LV has told him to. Or it could be that Wormtail is just doing it on his own. Wormtail knows that he owes Harry his life. It could be that he is just that way all the time, and it will end up helping Harry at the end somehow. Remember that Wormtail is only out for Wormtail! He will use any info. he has to help himself if need be. And yes, it sounds like others have been there, that he was listening too. I also feel that this chapter was put in so we could see just what Snape has been up to. JKR has said in the past, that we should not think that Snape is nice, etc.. This just gave us some insight to his ways of doing things. If this would have been a chapter where Harry was there listening, I would think that it could be good or bad for Snape. But this was a chapter, where JKR was telling us how things are. Thats how it felt to me anyway. And although I like Snape in the books he helps make the book. It makes him look bad bad bad. I believe that this is where we got to see the real Snape. Harry had a dream at the start of school about LV,Snape and the turban etc.. Looks like he has been right all along. Now there is still time for Snape to make good before it is all over, we will see.

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zelmia - Jul 29, 2006 12:13 pm (#135 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
It does look like Harry's been right but we won't really know until the end of book 7. It is a typical element of - particularly the modern version of - the Hero Myth that the Hero's apparent nemisis ultimately acts on the Hero's behalf. I certainly don't think Snape is a "nice" guy, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a true Death Eater. Unfortunately, we'll just have to wait and see.

Still, Snape will definitely have some 'splainin' to do. True Order member or no, I don't see how offing our favourite Headmaster is going to be forgiven unless someone steps up to vouch for having known that this was part of "the Plan".
Once again, my money's on Arthur, should such a plan have existed.

On the other hand, this may be where Wormtail can be of use. If his habit of "listening at doors" can be used to verify Snape's account of some sort of agreement between himself and Dumbledore, Wormtail may become an unwitting ally for Snape.

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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2006 11:31 pm (#136 of 322)

Snape will definitely have some 'splainin' to do

Yes, Ricky, he certainly will! I agree that Arthur seems to be the most likely one to have known any confidential plans. He would certainly be the one--in my opinion, anyway--to whom Dumbledore might entrust critical information concerning Harry.

I'm mid-reread of HBP, and I've just hit the spot (Christmas holidays) where Harry tells Arthur about the exchange he overheard between Snape and Malfoy. When he questions Dumbledore's faith in Snape, Arthur says the following: "It comes down to whether or not you trust Dumbledore's judgement. I do; therefore, I trust Severus." Arthur may be a bit squirrelly when it comes to Muggles and their gadgets, but I think he is level-headed when it comes to things that count. I can see Dumbledore confiding in him.

Wormtail might be able to provide an alibi for Snape, but who is going to believe him after his twelve-year charade as Scabbers? Besides, providing an alibi for Snape would (probably) put Wormtail at risk with Voldemort, so he would have to seek asylum from the Order or the Ministry. Once again, it would probably look as though he were merely trying to save his own skin ... maybe. (But I suppose any further discussion of Arthur or Wormtail needs to go on one of their threads.)

Solitaire

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2006 8:12 am (#137 of 322)

Whoa! Did I ever mix up things. I attributed the quote in the above post to Arthur, and it appears to have been Remus who said it. (That's what I get for posting while I'm watching Rosemary & Thyme!) Harry did indeed start the conversation with Arthur, but ...As Harry spoke, he saw Lupin's head turn a little toward him, taking in every word.

I think I need to pursue the rest of this over on Remus's thread.

Solitaire

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zelmia - Jul 31, 2006 1:40 pm (#138 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I guess I was thinking that "there are ways of making him talk" with regard to Wormtail. But he was pretty eager to spill all he knew when he thought it would keep Sirius and Lupin from zapping him in the Shreiking Shack. And it didn't take much prodding either.
I guess I sort of imagined Wormtail would try to make himself out as some sort of "super secret" independent spy for the Order... trying to redeem himself because of Lily and James... Life debt to Harry.... thought he could catch Snape out... yadda yadda yadda...
I'm sure the Order would never buy Wormtail's act. But they may at least be able to cobble the truth together and exonerate Snape.

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Soul Search - Jul 31, 2006 2:56 pm (#139 of 322)

Was Wormtail's silver hand mentioned in Spinner's End? I think not, and wonder if that should call attention to it?

I can't get the prophecy's "hand of the other" out of my mind.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 31, 2006 3:26 pm (#140 of 322)

Soul search Wormtail's hand was mentioned in the chapter.

The man crept, hunchbacked, down the last few steps innto the room, He had small, watery eyes, a pointed nose, and wore an unpleasant simper. His left hand was caressing his right, which looked as though it was encased in a bright silver glove (HBP Large Prrint Edition page 40).

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Soul Search - Jul 31, 2006 4:36 pm (#141 of 322)

Thanks, Nathan Zimmermann. I suppose Wormtail's silver hand is old hat to Snape, Narcissa, and Bellatrix, by now.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 31, 2006 4:41 pm (#142 of 322)

I find that portion of the chapter intriguing because, it seems as though Peter's righthand is almost in pain and that he appears to be caressing it with a peculiar temderness.

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haymoni - Jul 31, 2006 6:07 pm (#143 of 322)

Yes - the caressing part really creeped me out.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2006 6:52 pm (#144 of 322)

I suppose he could also be caressing the silver hand out of a creepy fascination with it. Ick!

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Magic Words - Jul 31, 2006 7:34 pm (#145 of 322)

I wonder if he has feeling in the hand. I know if I've been leaning on an arm or something and my fingers go numb, I'll start rubbing them without really thinking about it, to get the circulation back.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2006 8:43 pm (#146 of 322)

Didn't he pick up some leaves or twigs in the graveyard and crush them in his fingers? I guess that doesn't prove anything ... but if he has control over his movements, it might indicate feeling.

Solitaire

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zelmia - Aug 1, 2006 3:06 am (#147 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Actually, Solitaire, as I recall, he picked up something rather more substantial and crushed it easily - as if it were only dry leaves - with his new Silvery Hand. Unfortunately, I can't be bothered at the moment to go and look it up.

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Solitaire - Aug 1, 2006 9:54 am (#148 of 322)

Wormtail's sobbing stopped abruptly. His breathing harsh and ragged, he raised his head and stared in disbelief at the silver hand, now attached seamlessly to his arm, as though he were wearing a dazzling glove. He flexed the shining fingers, then, trembling, picked up a small twig on the ground and crushed it into powder.

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zelmia - Aug 1, 2006 4:11 pm (#149 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Ah... Guess I remembered him picking up a small stone or something. Still, he crushed the twig into powder. Which tends to give one the impression that his new hand is something like "bionic".
As a bit of an aside, I've always found it curious that Voldemort refers to Peter Pettigrew as "Wormtail". That he uses the childhood nickname given to Pettigrew by his closest friends. But I'll save those thoughts for the appropriate Thread.

Speaking of Wormtail, I still find myself pondering Snape's remark to him: "I was under the impression that the Dark Lord had placed you here to assist me." Several questions arise from this seemingly simple statement.

In what capacity, exactly? What could Wormtail be "assisting" Snape with? Making some sort of potion, perhaps? Research of some kind? After all The walls were completely covered in books... Obviously it couldn't have been just cleaning the house, but nothing else in this episode appears at all to refer to this arrangement.
Why should Voldemort feel that Snape even needs "assistance"? Why does Voldemort suddenly feel that "his most faithful servant" (according to Snape) is incapable of independently completing an assignment?
So just who is keeping an eye on whom? Is it Wormtail who's been sent to monitor Snape? Or has Voldemort only sent Wormtail to Snape's to keep him out of the way? Which leads to the question: If Voldemort only wants Wormtail out of the way, why inflict him on Snape, supposedly "his most faithful servant"?
Could it be that one of the Horcruxes is located somewhere in or around Spinner's End? Perhaps this is what Wormtail has been sent to "assist" Snape with. Obviously Snape is only at home for a couple of months a year. Therefore Wormtail could have been assigned to stay at Spinner's End to keep watch over the Horcrux until called for. Of course, it doesn't have to be a Horcrux. There could be something other reason that Wormtail is needed to stand guard over Spinner's End.
Hmm. I wonder what that could be...

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TheSaint - Aug 1, 2006 4:43 pm (#150 of 322)

Seems he put both of the 'traitors' together to watch each other. One turned on his friends and one works both sides.

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Spinner's End Dissected (Post 151 to 200)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:15 am

Thom Matheson - Aug 1, 2006 7:59 pm (#151 of 322)
They also worked together to kill off the Potters. Just today I was rereading the chapter and came up with the same questions Zelmia. My first thought was the neckless and the poisoned wine for Draco. That would explain why Snape knew of Voldemort's plan. He was creating the poisons that Draco would use. I don't for a minute think that Draco came up with them.

At the Christmas party Severus I think was trying to bait Draco into revealing what he already knew he had done. If he can get Draco to open up and trust him he would be in a better position to openly help and avoiding the nasty outcome of the promise.

Other then their ties to the Potters, I can only think that Voldemort is trying to hide Peter from the WW. If I were Voldemort, I am sure that I would grow weary real fast of Peter hanging around me. He is a bit of a liability from his exposure now that Sirius has been cleared of the killings. I wouldn't be to sure that Spinners End wasn't unplottable for the sake of the Order looking for other D.E. kind of a safe house.

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zelmia - Aug 1, 2006 9:20 pm (#152 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Oh yes! Excellent point, Thom. Especially about the poisoned wine. I sort of assumed that Draco may have simply come up with some sort of rudimentary poison on his own. After all, he, too, is taking NEWT Potions. And then there is the argument he has with Snape about it. But Snape may very well have ultimately convinced Draco ("off screen") to let Snape help him.
It had also occured to me that Snape also remarks on how [Dumbledore's] duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him." Snape must be referring to their duel at the Ministry. But he also mentions Dumbledore's "injured" hand. It occurs to me that Snape may have also "mentioned" Dumbledore's injured hand to Voldemort. So I was thinking that it may very well be that Voldemort knows Dumbledore is after the Horcruxes.
However, while wanting to get Wormtail out of his hair (so to speak) may have been the prime motivation for Voldemort sending Wormtail to Spinner's End, again I submit that perhaps Voldemort has given the Snape-Wormtail duo the task of looking after one of the Horcruxes. The others may be being looked after by other Death Eaters or simply moved to safer locations. Certainly Nagini will always be safe.

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Thom Matheson - Aug 2, 2006 6:11 am (#153 of 322)

After all that was made of Voldemort being very private and not sharing with anyone, I have trouble getting my arms around him trusting any of his Death Eaters with that that is so precious to him. The diary was for Lucius to keep but we know thta he was not aware there was a Horcrux within.

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Soul Search - Aug 2, 2006 7:27 am (#154 of 322)

Could Voldemort also be at Spinner's End?

Snape says he could talk to Voldemort about other tasks for Wormtail, and then Wormtail responds that he can talk to Voldemort too.

Did they mean something as easy as going upstairs and knocking on a door?

If so, it would mean that neither Narcissa nor Bellatrix know he is there. Seems unlikely, but ...

There have not been any references to Voldemort's headquarters.

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haymoni - Aug 2, 2006 8:06 am (#155 of 322)

I doubt Narcissa would take the chance of defying Voldy if he were in the same house.

Apparating makes life a lot easier. Wormtail could just pop right in on Voldy, but he knows his master does not think much of him, so I'm guessing he stays put.

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zelmia - Aug 2, 2006 1:01 pm (#156 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Another good point, Thom - about Voldemort not sharing anything with anyone. Still, he could order Death Eaters to keep safe some particular object without indicating its true significance. Then again, after what happened with the Diary, he should have learned his lesson. I tend to agree with you on this.

Soul Search, that is an interesting option. What if, indeed, Voldemort was right at the top of the stairs? Unlikely, that's true. But there is - technically - nothing written to indicated that Voldemort is not hiding out at Spinner's End.
And obviously Narcissa wouldn't have known that Voldemort was there. If he had been, one assumes he would have made his presence known. Still, it's pretty clear that Voldemort didn't much care whether or not Draco succeeded in his assignment - was sure Draco would not succeed in fact. So perhaps he simply ignored Narcissa's confiding in Snape because the outcome served his purposes either way.

Now, I'm pretty sure Voldemort was not staying at Spinner's End. But it would be an interesting twist if he was.

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Honour - Aug 2, 2006 5:07 pm (#157 of 322)

Maybe Voldermort is at the Malfoy home?

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Soul Search - Aug 2, 2006 5:47 pm (#158 of 322)

I have been wondering about Voldemort's "home" or "headquarters." My previous post suggesting Spinner's End was, I thought, a bit of a stretch, but now I am not so sure. Why were we shown Spinners's End? And not Harry?

Everybody has to be someplace, even evil Dark Lords. Have we seen the place in the six books? Let's assume so. One place or two? I think Voldemort might have one place where he meets with death eaters and another where he resides. Afterall, the ministry is, supposedly, looking for him and could get information out of a death eater. Anyway, Voldemort would not trust anyone, or very few.

At some time, Harry and Voldemort have to get together to fulfill the prophecy. This last time, Harry may go looking for Voldemort.

We have seen Voldemort in two places. The Riddle house and wherever it was in OotP where Harry was seeing through his eyes, Avery was in trouble, and Harry saw Voldemort in the mirror. Not enough clues to identify the place, however.

If we have seen the place(s), what are the possibilities?

Riddle house. Spinner's End. Malfoy's (or another death eater.) Not really many choices. (More thoughts needed here.)

Spinner's End is not in an area populated by wizards. Neither is the Riddle house. Few know of the connection between Voldemort and the Riddle house.

The Malfoy house has been subject to surprise Ministry visits. I rule it out.

So, (speculating) Voldemort "lives" at Spinner's End, with Wormtail as servant, and meets death eaters someplace else, say the Riddle house. In thinking through "Spinner's End" I can't see anything that would rule this out.

Voldemort can keep a close eye on Wormtail, and Snape.

This puts a different complexion on things. Is Spinner's End Snape's family house? Narcissa knew to go there, so I am still inclined to think Spinner's End is where Snape has resided when not at Hogwarts. Bellatrix didn't know of it, so it isn't common knowledge. (Back to that relationship between Snape and the Malfoys.)

How will Harry discover Voldemort's whereabouts? Wormtail or Snape?

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Pamzter - Aug 2, 2006 6:53 pm (#159 of 322)

THOM - It's an interesting thought that Snape might have prepared the poisoned wine and the poisoned necklace, especially since both stopped just short of killing someone . . . Katie just happened to barely touch it, Harry just happened to have a bezoar. I think Snape may have diluted each of them a bit and it seemed to the world just a junior death eater miscalculation.

SOUL SEARCH - I guess I've always assumed the Riddle house was protected just like Grimmauld Place. Can't see, can't tell.

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Thom Matheson - Aug 2, 2006 7:48 pm (#160 of 322)

Pamzter, I'm with you on the Riddle house. 1) He is the heir after all, and, with the caretaker out of the way, who would care about going there anyway. The last owner abandoned it anyway. Remember Scrimgour's line to the Prime Minister. "The other side also knows magic". The dark siders sertainly know how to make the unplotable. If that is the case though, who would be the secret keeper?

Now if either Snape or Wormtail were that person, can we all say "LIFE DEBT", to Harry.

Sorry, I just bipped out for a second. Ain't it amazin how the mind goes from one thing to another.

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zelmia - Aug 2, 2006 8:36 pm (#161 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well, it's pretty clear that Narcissa and Bellatrix are not the only ones "of [their] kind" to have visited Snape at Spinner's End. Perhaps Voldemort himself has been there. Recall that at one point Snape shushes Narcissa, then goes to the window - presumably to check that the coast is clear - before allowing Narcissa to continue speaking.

Incidentally, I'm not sure making a location "unplottable" requires a Secret Keeper. The Fidelius Charm, on the other hand does.

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painting sheila - Aug 2, 2006 11:27 pm (#162 of 322)

Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Has anyone discussed the possibility of Snape making an unbreakable vow with DD? Maybe that is why DD trusted him so much.

And DD knew Snape killing DD was a way for Sanpe to keep both vows. Does that make sense? Would that explain the look on Snapes face - he was so upset with imself for making the vow with Narcissa - and caught with keeping the vow (whatever it may have been) with DD.

Just a thought-

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Mattew Bates - Aug 3, 2006 3:33 pm (#163 of 322)

“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
While I have my doubts about Voldemort being at Spinner's End, I have greater ones about him being set up at the Riddle House. It's too close to the Gaunt House. If Voldey had been in the neighborhood while Dumbledore was discovering the Peverell ring, Dumbledore might have had more problems than a blackened hand.

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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 3:45 pm (#164 of 322)

Sheila, I think an Unbreakable Vow between Dumbledore and Snape could well explain why Dumbledore has trusted Snape. Alas, I think that the vow could pertain only to Harry, and Snape might still be guilty of the actual murder of Dumbledore, apart from any agreement between them. Notice I said might ...

Solitaire

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Mattew Bates - Aug 3, 2006 3:55 pm (#165 of 322)

“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
I must respectfully disagree, Solitaire (partially on semantic grounds). I think if Dumbldore truly trusted Snape, an unbreakable vow would be unnecessary. If there was an unbreakable vow between them, then it would be a misnomer call what Dumbledore felt towards Snape "trust." Of course, we can go over this specific aspect of Spinner's End in more detail at the The Unbreakable Vow ... and Why Snape Took It thread.

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Pamzter - Aug 3, 2006 4:56 pm (#166 of 322)

I believe that there was an unbreakable vow between DD and Snape - and although we don't know exactly what it was (not reveal the Order? not harm Harry? not harm Hogwarts? etc. etc.), I am curious as to how it is now affected by DD's confirmed death (which would greatly depend on what it was . . . circles and more circles).

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Prefect Marcus - Aug 3, 2006 5:03 pm (#167 of 322)

"Anyone can cook"
Or could the unbreakable vow be between Snape and Lily? That would explain a great many things.

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Pamzter - Aug 3, 2006 5:35 pm (#168 of 322)

Whoever it was between, my greatest curiousity is: who is the bonder? If it was between Snape and Lily I guess that bonder could have been DD. However the speculation over who it could have been was there one between DD and Snape - who else out there knows what's going on - could be exciting.

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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 9:55 pm (#169 of 322)

It's okay, Mattew ... it wasn't my idea!

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Mattew Bates - Aug 3, 2006 10:18 pm (#170 of 322)

“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
Prefect Marcus, Pamzter - It would explain some things, but I see it raising more questions than it answers. How do you think James would feel about this arrangement between his wife and his worst enemy from school? Would Lily really risk upsetting James in that manner? And, as this is hypothetical we're talking about in a chapter-specific-dissection thread, don't you think the discussion is a better fit for the The Unbreakable Vow ... and Why Snape Took It thread?

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Honour - Aug 4, 2006 12:08 am (#171 of 322)

Any who, I suggested that maybe Voldermort could be at the Malfoy home rather than Spinner's End purely because sometime or other Narcissa had been in contact with Voldermort...

"The Dark Lord has forbidden me to speak of it, ... He wishes none to know of the plan. It is ... very secret. But-"

...and I would think that she would not risk talking about "the plan" where she could be overheard by Voldermort? I would also think that the 'visits' by the MOM would probably be less or even have stopped now that Lucius is in Azkaban?

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zelmia - Aug 4, 2006 2:27 am (#172 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Oh, I wouldn't Honour. I would think that the Ministry would be keeping an even closer eye on the homes, families and associates of all the "outed" Death Eaters in the Ministry's attempts to locate and apprehend Voldemort.

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Honour - Aug 4, 2006 3:51 am (#173 of 322)

Do you think so Zelmia? It seems that Rufus is too busy trying to fake support for the MOM via Harry rather than trying to actually catch the bad-guys (re Stan Shunpike) ... And there seems to be an awful lot of (good) people disappearing or getting killed everytime HRH read the paper?

But back to this thread... If Peter has been placed with Severus to assist him then two things come to mind;

1. Voldermort does not need assistance anymore and has sent his DE's out to perform set tasks. So what is he doing?

2. Peter has been sent to 'assist' Severus, what particular talent would Peter have that Severus doesn't have, that he would need help with? (Did that make sense?) Being a slimy, sneaky, er, person - I think Severus already has these talents. The only other talent I could think of was perhaps Peter being an animagus?

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zelmia - Aug 4, 2006 12:59 pm (#174 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I was thinking about how when a well known, dangerous criminal is at large, the authorities sort of seal off all the places that person either might go or is already known to have frequented. In the case of Voldemort, the homes of known Death Eaters' would be one area to monitor, I would think.
Yes, Scrimgeour is focusing more on putting the Ministry's best face forward. Yes he is trying to make it look as if the Ministry are "doing something" by authorizing the imprisonment of anyone who utters the words "the Dark Lord". (Hm... that all sounds eerily familiar somehow....) But Scrimgeour wouldn't really have anything to do with the day-to-day running of the Aurors, would he? No, I'm really asking.

Anyway, Peter's animagus ability may well be how he is assisting Snape in whatever it is the two are supposed be doing. Peter also has that silvery hand so there may be something useful there.

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Thom Matheson - Aug 4, 2006 5:29 pm (#175 of 322)

Just a bit off thread but the silvery hand made me think about how Peter can transform. Woulod he be a rat with a silver paw? That would have to be a dead give a way to any self respecting Auror? From that, hiding when you can't switch would maybe necessitate him staying with Snape.

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Solitaire - Aug 4, 2006 9:49 pm (#176 of 322)

Thom, I've thought about the rat with the silver paw (He reminds me of The Man with the Golden Arm), too. Now that everyone knows about Wormtail, he would be fairly conspicuous--even in rat form--if he happened to be seen by anyone ... wouldn't he?

In the case of Voldemort, the homes of known Death Eaters' would be one area to monitor

Is it possible that no one in the Order knows of the Spinner's End house? What about other DEs? Narcissa seems to have been there before (she had no trouble at all finding it), but Bella seemed shocked that Snape would live in such a place.

Speaking of DE houses ... the Ministry has apparently been to the Malfoy house on at least two occasions (raids?), both before and since Lucius was put into Azkaban. Does anyone else wonder why Lucius didn't make the house unplottable? Just curious ... and I realize this may need to move over to the Lucius Malfoy thread if anyone wants to discuss it.

Solitaire

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mooncalf - Aug 4, 2006 11:25 pm (#177 of 322)

Does everyone know about Wormtail? I thought only the order knew and that the aurors were essentially clueless. Don't they still believe that Sirius murdered Wormtail?

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Veritaserum - Aug 5, 2006 9:08 am (#178 of 322)

Go Jays!
To answer your question, Solitaire, maybe given Malfoy's high standing in the Ministry and the school governors, he needed to have his house plottable, as it were. Perhaps he needed to throw lots of parties to show off his riches.

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Ginerva Potter - Aug 5, 2006 9:31 am (#179 of 322)

Mooncalf - I think so. I think that the Ministry now knows about Wormtail. In HBP, the chapter The Other Minister, Fudge talks about how it turns out that Sirius was innocent and they were wrong about him. I don't have a direct quote, but if you wanted to look it up, it is in that chapter.

Ginny

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Thom Matheson - Aug 5, 2006 1:04 pm (#180 of 322)

Mooncalf,, in the first chapter of HBP where Fudge is talking to the PM, he states that Sirius was innocent of the charges. That all came out after the fight at the MOM in OoP.

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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 1:07 pm (#181 of 322)

Veritaserum, I think that is a possibility. I also have a niggling little idea in the back of my mind ... that maybe Lucius kept his house open to the Ministry and general Wizarding public, so that he could avoid having to open it to Voldemort.

I agree that Lucius is a Dark, evil Wizard ... but I'm not sure that it is necessarily his allegiance to Voldemort that makes him so. Perhaps he was positioning himself for a power play, before it became obvious that Voldy was indeed alive. Again, this needs to go to the Lucius thread, if we are going to pursue it further.

I'm still curious, though, about Snape's place. Who besides Narcissa, Wormtail, and now Bella knows about it?

Solitaire

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 5, 2006 2:37 pm (#182 of 322)

Solitaire, I would think that Avery, as well as Rosier and Wilkes who now deceased may know its location because, they were in the same group of friends that included the Lestranges. Although, having said that I find it odd that Bella was taken aback that Severus lived in Spinner's End.

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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 3:00 pm (#183 of 322)

Well, it is possible that not all DEs were with Voldy for the pure-blood reasons, isn't it? I'm sure some simply sought power and an outlet for their cruel tendencies. I wonder, in fact, just exactly how many DEs truly are pure-bloods. We know Snape was not, but maybe this didn't bother other DEs. Bella, however, really was into the whole pure-blood thing. I can't imagine her just casually visiting Spinner's End on a social call.

Even 12GP, the home of her relatives, seemed to be in a rather ramshackle Muggle neighborhood, so I wonder ... has she even been there since she was no longer under her parents' authority (if she ever was)? Then again, she seems exactly the type that the portrait of Mrs. Black would love, doesn't she?

Dumbledore has often mentioned Voldemort's preference of working alone and not having any real friends. I wonder how true it is of the DEs in general. Crabbe and Goyle seemed to be fairly fixed in Draco's circle before they even arrived at Hogwarts, so Lucius must have had plenty of interaction with the dads over the years. We have also seen interaction between both the junior and senior Notts and Malfoys.

Snape was apparently on cordial terms with Lucius, and he seemed to genuinely care about Narcissa (in book 6) and Draco (in earlier books). This could be under DD's direction, or it could be genuine on Snape's part, I suppose. I think Snape's "relationship" with Wormtail was hostile at best. This could be due to his hatred of the Marauders, or it could be his revulsion at Wormtail's betrayal of the Potters, who were supposed to have been his friends. If they could not trust Wormtail, why should he (Snape)?

Sorry to ramble ... I'm just trying to connect the dots about who might have been friends among that group of DEs ...

Solitaire

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wynnleaf - Aug 6, 2006 10:39 am (#184 of 322)

Since Narcissa seemed so familiar with the directions to Spinners End, and since she also tried to convince Snape to help Draco based on his friendship with Lucius, I tended to assume that Lucius would have visited Spinners End on enough occasions to be just as familiar with the route there as Narcissa.

As regards who was in Snape's circle of friends -- it's interesting that when Harry tells about the graveyard scene with LV and the DE's, Snape only reacted to the mention of Lucius, not the other DE's.

When DD described the original followers of Riddle, from back when Riddle was at Hogwarts, he described them as

a motley collection; a mixture of the weak seeking protection, the ambitious seeking some shared glory, and the thuggish gravitating toward a leader who could how them more refined forms of cruelty. In other words, they were the fore-runners of the Death Eaters, and indeed some of them became the first Death Eaters after leaving Hogwarts.

If we add to this Sirius' comment about people who thought LV had the right idea at first -- about his political notions of blood purity -- then I think we have a picture of the various reasons people joined LV.

Given the wide variety of reason that people might have for joining LV, it sounds reasonable that many of them wouldn't have gotten along very well.

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Solitaire - Aug 6, 2006 2:12 pm (#185 of 322)

It makes sense, Wynnleaf. I know that the few people I have known who do not trust anyone are people who cannot be trusted themselves. It seems few of the DEs trust(ed) each other, which is understandable. After all, how many of them can be trusted? And how can one truly be friends with someone who cannot be trusted? Any alliances were obviously based on something other than trust--greed or fear, perhaps?

Solitaire

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 9, 2006 11:59 pm (#186 of 322)

Hi all, I will have to go back and look into this, but did it not seem to you that Bella know about LV sending Snape to see DD about the job at Hogwart????????????

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Laura W - Aug 10, 2006 2:39 am (#187 of 322)

cindysue, there was this exchange between Snape and Bella:

(Snape) " 'You ask where I was when the Dark Lord fell. I was where he had ordered me to be, at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, because he wished me to spy upon Albus Dumbledore. You know, I presume, that it was on the Dark Lord's orders that I took up the post?' She nodded almost imperceptibly ..."

So, it seems she *did* know, as you said.

Laura

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zelmia - Aug 10, 2006 10:30 am (#188 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Yes and say what you will about Bella, but she's no fool. This seems to be where her lack of trust in Snape originates: because he "was under Dumbledore's protection". And she actually makes some pretty good points. Snape spends several paragraphs convicing Bellatrix of his loyalty - carefully prefacing his remarks with "Don't you think the Dark Lord has asked each and every one of those questions?" A very good move on his part.

But of course it is the Vow that really reels Bella in. This entire chapter is interesting because the dialogue is all written in such an ambiguous way that we can never be entirely sure of just how much Snape knows about the Sisters and vice-versa.
"I think he intends me to do it in the end" Snape tells Narcissa. And we're never really sure that he knows precisely what "it" is.
"You know, I presume, that it was on the Dark Lord's orders...?" Again, Bella's response of a very weak nod seems to indicate that she was not aware. However, Snape clearly chooses to give her the benefit of the doubt and carries on with his explanation.
As for Narcissa, she appears to think Snape knows all about Draco's "assignment". Yet she finagles Snape into making the Unbreakable Vow - just to be on the safe side.

It's all very intriguing, from the standpoint of understanding the characters' motivations and intentions. And yet so carefully written as to be able to have the words spoken mean something entirely different once the truth of it all is revealed. Brilliant!

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 12, 2006 3:26 am (#189 of 322)

Hi all, This is one of my favorite chapters, it is so so good! You can look at it in so many ways! Like where Snape says, "I think he intends me to do it in the end". Well, is Snape talking about DD or LV????? I think it was LV. And when Snape says to Bella, that she knew about LV sending him to try and get the job at Hogwarts, and she nods, yes. This to some, as you see, simply means that she was weak and unaware of what she did or did not know. I on the other hand, feel that Bella has known very few weak days in her life, out of prison. And that if she was unaware of LV's orders, Bella would have said so, there and then. As for Narcissa, I feel that Snape was looking in on her soul or feelings, when he was looking into her eyes. And that she was dispirit to find help for her son. So she was willing to believe he already knew. To where, Bella was not dispirit for help, she had the luxury of checking out her suspicions. She ended up going along with him.

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zelmia - Aug 12, 2006 9:13 am (#190 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I'm going to have to disagree, Cindy. Bella would not have admitted ignorance with regard to Voldemort. This is the entire point of the conversation: "Quien es muy macho" to quote a very old Saturday Night Live sketch.
Bella is jealous of Snape's new-found intimacy with Voldemort - a position she had until very recently (failure at the Ministry) dominated. Bella's entire reason for even being at Spinner's End is to dissuade Narcissa from trusting Snape.
To admit that she did not know of some plan of Voldemort's would be admitting that she was not "his most trusted servant" and that she might be wrong about Snape.
Only the Vow convinces her of Snape's loyalty. Up to that point, she stands her ground and demands proof. She will not give a single inch on this - not until the Vow. Admitting ignorance about one part of Voldemort's master plan means admitting that she is not as close to Voldemort as Snape. Which means that she has a greater chance of being wrong about Snape - which she doesn't want to be, but which she certainly doesn't want to admit.

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Solitaire - Aug 12, 2006 12:29 pm (#191 of 322)

"He ... lately, we ... I'm asking you, Snape!"

The above quote from "Spinner's End" is as close as Bella ever comes to admitting that she is no longer as close to Voldemort as she once was. Snape surely read her meaning clearly enough, however, and used it to his advantage, I think.

Solitaire

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zelmia - Aug 12, 2006 4:34 pm (#192 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Exactly, Solitaire. Though she is on the verge of blurting out her fallen status, Bella quickly recovers herself and does not actually say anything. Still, as you say, it was all Snape needed.
However, I see now that I should have been more clear in my post and said, "Bella would not have openly admitted..." or perhaps even "Bella would not have intentionally admitted ignorance with regard to Voldemort."

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Solitaire - Aug 12, 2006 11:56 pm (#193 of 322)

Bella is rather like a jealous child who has been supplanted by "the prodigal Snape," and she doesn't like it a bit, as I believe you said.

She also says, "The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious--if Lucius hadn't--"

Once again, she tries to assert her status with Voldemort by pointing to the past. Realizing (maybe?) that this comment implies he no longer trusts her, she blames Lucius for any change in her status.

The other critical item in this assertion seems to be that she was in charge of something really important to Voldemort. What? Could it have been a Horcrux? More than one? If so, did Snape pick up on that? And if he does, what will he do (or has he done) about it?

Solitaire

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Choices - Aug 13, 2006 6:49 pm (#194 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Ah, three drops of Veritaserum and he could have Bellatrix spilling her guts. I wish.....!

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zelmia - Aug 22, 2006 1:53 pm (#195 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Going back to Bella's blaming Lucius for her "demotion", Narcissa really fires up at this remark.

"Don't you dare - don't you dare blame my husband!" said Narcissa, in a low and deadly voice, looking up at her sister. - HBP Ch. 2

Of course the unspoken part of this response is likely, "And what about your husband? Let's not forget his culpability in all this!"
Narcissa's choice of words here is interesting to me. Both Snape and Bella refer to Lucius as, well, "Lucius". But Narcissa refers to him as "my husband". Why? Why not say his name?
It has a sort of "territorial" quality, which is understandable. But using the phrase "my husband" also suggests that Narcissa actually has a certain amount of pride in her marriage; that she respects Lucius and his place in their relationship and she won't allow anyone - not even her own sister - to cast aspersions. To me, this indicates that Narcissa genuinely loves Lucius. Which naturally gets me thinking about how Lucius feels about Narcissa - but that is for another Thread.

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Veritaserum - Aug 22, 2006 9:09 pm (#196 of 322)

Go Jays!
Hmm...dissecting the relationships of the Malfoys. Interesting stuff, that.

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cindysuewho45 - Aug 22, 2006 11:02 pm (#197 of 322)

Hi all, Yes zelmia, on this one I will have to agree with you. I too feel that Narcissa loves and respects her man. And has pride in her marriage.

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haymoni - Aug 23, 2006 5:34 am (#198 of 322)

What else does she have?

It's not like she can socialize with the rest of the Wizarding World.

She's like one of those Mafia wives that is stuck in the life. You only socialize with certain people. You only go to certain places.

Now her hubby is a jailbird and she's pretty much alone. Draco was all she had and now he's been sent off as a hitman.

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zelmia - Aug 26, 2006 11:59 am (#199 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Narcissa is rather like a Mafia wife, but I don't think she's just lounging around at the Wizard Spa while her husband and/or son are off doing who-knows-what. Narcissa is very involved with the Death Eaters and apparently even Voldemort himself.
"The Dark Lord ordered us not to speak of the plan to anyone" Bella reminds her sister, which seems to indicate that both of the sisters have a much closer relationship with Voldemort than some of the other Death Eaters. And though this may not be as close a relationship as Bella would like or thinks she deserves, still Voldemort apparently interacts with the Black Sisters directly - a huge indication of their elevated status in the Death Eater organization.

It suddenly occurs to me that perhaps Wormtail could have been planning to spy on Narcissa and Bellatrix rather than Snape. Certainly Snape would not have allowed any Order members to come to Spinner's End with Wormtail staying there. But other Death Eaters may have been invited, or at least welcomed in.
If Wormtail was "listening at doors" on a regular basis, it may be because he had overheard conversations with other Death Eaters - in fact this is most likely, in my opinion.
So what was Wormtail hoping to overhear? Wormtail himself was Voldemort's only servant (let alone "most loyal") for quite a while. Once re-birthed, Voldemort made it pretty clear that Wormtail's usefulness had been all but exhausted. Perhaps Wormtail was simply hoping to get something on Bella or Narcissa that would be enough to get back into Voldemort's good graces.

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haymoni - Aug 26, 2006 6:57 pm (#200 of 322)

Wormtail is a sleeze.

He'll use whatever he can to save himself.

I really think the Sorting Hat screwed up with him.

He should have been a Slytherin.

Unless his bravery is yet to come..."hand of the Other, hand of the Other, hand of the Other".

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Spinner's End Dissected (Post 201 to 250)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:16 am

Choices - Aug 26, 2006 7:22 pm (#201 of 322)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think it must be to come. We were reminded by Dumbledore that Wormtail owes a life debt to Harry, so I feel sure we will see him repay it.

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Vulture - Aug 31, 2006 1:05 pm (#202 of 322)

It's just my opinion, but I like it !!
Everybody has to be someplace, even evil Dark Lords. Have we seen the place in the six books? Let's assume so. One place or two? I think Voldemort might have one place where he meets with death eaters and another where he resides. (Soul Search - Aug 2, 2006 5:47 pm (#158))

In Book 5, I got the impression that Voldemort was in a large building with room for several others to be semi-permanently around. My reasons are:

(1) Harry's visions show him in an "important"-looking chair, interviewing Rookwood in what seems to be a wide chamber.

(2) He says "Send Avery to me" as if Avery is around in the building, and available, but not nearby. If Avery was in the next room, he'd either call out for Avery himself or say "Tell Avery to come in" or "Send him in to me". "Send Avery to me" is the kind of thing a boss says about someone who's on a different floor, or a good distance away.

(3) While waiting for Avery, he strolls over and looks at himself in a hanging mirror. Firstly, the mirror gives an air of comfort and permanence that makes it unlikely that Voldemort is camping out, say, in an attic at Spinner's End or some such place. Secondly, this action indicates that Avery will take at least some minutes to arrive _ and that Voldemort knows this without being told; he is strolling around, waiting. Thirdly, this leisurely action seems to me to be something born of habit _ in other words, he has had such interviews, and such waiting for arrivals, often in this place. Therefore, it's a large place, with quite a few others in it.

(4) There is Voldemort's own personality _ wouldn't he want to have at least a bigger and better office than his greatest rival, Dumbledore ?

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wynnleaf - Aug 31, 2006 1:28 pm (#203 of 322)

If the Order can put a Fidelius Charm on 12 Grimmauld Place so that DE's can't find it -- even though Bellatrix is bound to know of the house and likely even visited it before, wouldn't it be just as possible for LV to place a Fidelius Charm on the Riddle house? Order members would know the general location, but wouldn't be able to find the house. LV would be the secret keeper, like DD was for 12 Grimmauld Place.

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Meoshimo - Sep 24, 2006 11:43 am (#204 of 322)

I don't think Voldemort has to be in a large building to need to wait for a Death Eater's arrival. He probably knows at least the genenral locations of his followers; he could be sending someone to apparate to where the required person is and bring them back through apparition.

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journeymom - Apr 27, 2007 2:09 pm (#205 of 322)

Spinner's End- Step into my parlor, said the spider to the fly. By the end of the chapter who is the spider and who is the fly? I've been reading a bit from half-bloodprince.org.

Of course it's Snape's home and he invites Narcissa and Bella into his parlor. He is the spider, spinning tales for more than a decade. Narcissa is the lovely fly.

Narcissa flatters Snape, appealing to his pride. Also, note that Narcissa spends a good portion of the chapter with her hands covering her face, crying dry tears. I think this mirrors Hermione in OotP when she cries fake tears and lures Umbridge out to the centaurs.

Also, it's interesting to note that Bella is sincere, genuine and straight-forward. I wondered if she was playing 'bad cop' to Narcissa's 'good cop', trying to influence Snape. But she hotly accuses Snape in the same way Harry complained to Dumbledore about Snape. And she is 'astonished' and 'astounded' when Snape proceeds with the Vow. Narcissa is the deceptive one. She's not just a mother who loves her son, she's manipulative beneath that helpless facade.

By the end of the chapter Snape has stepped into Narcissa's trap, hand bound to hers in the sticky thread of the Unbreakable Vow.

I've understood that Snape is the spinner of tales and this chapter was the beginning of his end. But I only just now made the connection between the ropes of the Unbreakable Vow and the threads of a spider's web, and also that in the spider/fly analogy, at the end Snape is the fly, Narcissa is the spider.

Thanks for humoring me. It's all been discussed here before, but I only figured out some of it just now. I just needed to get that written down.

================

One more thing, Narcissus fell in love with his own reflection when he looked into a pool of water. "...The long blonde hair streaming down [Narcissa's] back gave her the look of a drowned person", and Snape gazed into her eyes at least once. He wasn't in love with his own reflection, but couldn't help but be flattered by Narcissa, 'drowned', gazing back up at him from beneath the water.

And just imagine, JKR named her Narcissa how many years ago?

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Luna Logic - Apr 28, 2007 1:14 am (#206 of 322)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Wow... Narcissa the spider and Bella sincere... with Snape the fly. I never saw it that way and I think it is worth to ponder about...
Journeymon: note that Narcissa spends a good portion of the chapter with her hands covering her face, crying dry tears. I think this mirrors Hermione in OotP when she cries fake tears and lures Umbridge out to the centaurs. A hint very "JKR style" indeed.

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Solitaire - Apr 28, 2007 11:06 am (#207 of 322)

I think you need to look at the exchange between the two of them before they ever reached Snape's house:

"Let go, Bella!" snarled Narcissa, and she drew a wand from beneath her cloak, holding it threateningly in the other's face. Bella merely laughed.
"Cissy, your own sister? You wouldn't--"
"There is nothing I wo uldn't do anymnore!" Narcissa breathed, a note of hysteria in her voice, and as she brought down the wand like a knife, there was another flash of light. Bella let go of her sister's arm as though burned.

There was no audience watching them then. I have to conclude Narcissa's feelings were genuine. She may have been weeping "crocodile tears" to Snape once inside the house, but I do not think she and Bella were doing a good cop/bad cop routine. I can't say Bella is good, Narcissa is evil ... or even the other way around. I think they are both bad ... but Narcissa does seem to be distraught over Draco, for what it (and he) is worth.

Solitaire

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me and my shadow 813 - Apr 28, 2007 4:11 pm (#208 of 322)

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This is one of my favorite chapters of the entire series. I haven't read this thread throughout, so apologies if I've restated the overstated.

I agree with Solitaire, although journeymom's analysis is vital because the chapter is named Spinner's End for a reason (and, as per usual, for more reasons than one). But I feel we were shown the interaction between Narcissa and Bella prior to being in Severus's presence specifically to show the sisters were not in agreement and were not conspiring to entrap Severus. It is possible Narcissa told Bella she wanted to get Severus to make the Vow, but I do not see her tears as feigned.

I sort of like Narcissa. We have been shown very little of this woman, and I feel she is basically not evil and will do anything to help her son, whether that means joining with DE's or the Order. I feel certain she will have an important role to play in DH.

A lot has been written on the symbolism of Bella and Narcissa as the light and dark two-faced Janus or whatever you want to call the polarised energy (take your pick). In the beginning of Spinner's End, the description of their opposite natures is symbolically described: as Narcissa apparates with a light, delicate "crack", Bella's crack is louder, so more dense. They run to Spinner's End through alternating shadows and light. And, of course, Bella is as dark as her sister is pale.

There's also been descriptions about the three sisters, with Andromeda as the "harmonic" greater than the other two. Whether we meet Andromeda or not, to me Bella is destined to die and Narcissa will pull out of the mess she's made of her life.

Back to Spinner's End: The beauty of this chapter for me is how logical and utterly valid Bella's questions are, and how *iff-y* Severus's answers are. For all Bella's evil, despicable ways, she is completely honest about who she is and what she believes in. She would stand up on the highest mountaintop and proclaim her devotion to Vold (if only he'd give her permission). So she's evil but not cunning. She cannot thoroughly weave lies as Severus can. She's not intelligent enough. But my sense is Severus knew that his answers weren't foolproof -- which is precisely why he made the Vow. He wanted there to be no room for doubt. In that respect, Severus is distinctly the fly in the web. Oh what a tangled web, Severus! But I am wary to think Severus did not effectively perform Legilimency on both of them. Before they arrive at Spinner's End, Bella tells Narcissa she believes the Dark Lord "is mistaken". Soon after, Severus asks Bella if she believes the Dark Lord "is mistaken". Not a coincidence. And, of course, he pumped Narcissa with wine and I'm sure would have no trouble with her mind being unguarded, terrified, and desperate.

I look forward to hearing more thoughts on this wonderful chapter.

edited...

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wynnleaf - Apr 28, 2007 6:44 pm (#209 of 322)

One of the most fascinating things about the Spinners End chapter is Pettigrew being there.

Why was he there? No, what I mean is why did JKR have him there? He doesn't really add anything to the chapter. It could pretty much have gone on just the same without him. Snape could have already had the wine somewhere around. What's the point of Peter being there at all?

We are told that Pettigrew has been there to help Snape, but the comments imply that he's mostly just been cleaning and keeping house. So he's not helping with some important project. Did LV assign him there to do something specific (and if so what)? Or just to get him out of the way?

Further, we have the comment by Snape that Peter has been eavesdropping. Why are we told this? Is this the first hint in some bigger incident that will occur later? If Snape is so willing to mention to Bella and Cissy that Peter has been eavesdropping, it doesn't sound like Snape thought that it was Voldemort setting a spy on him.

It seems to me that Peter must be in the chapter to set something up that JKR had planned for later, but I can't imagine what.

Another big one is Snape and the curtains. What's with Snape checking out the window? Is he just casually looking out as he thinks? Seems unlikely. So what was he looking for? As Snape is glancing out the window, he's most likely looking for someone who would be walking directly up to the house, not skulking around corners, otherwise he'd really have to look out long and hard to see if he could see someone hidden. Or could he be signaling someone?

It seems highly likely that more was going on in this chapter than met the eye. There's some context in which the meeting occurred that we're not told. Peter is there for some unknown reason, occasionally eavesdropping on Snape for some reason, and this will probably be important later. And there was something else -- possibly someone -- outside of the house. Someone who either was there, or who wasn't there, but perhaps expected.

So when Bella and Cissy came unexpectedly, they walked into some sort of context of which I think they were not aware. But I think that we, the readers, will ultimately be made aware of whatever else was going on there. I have no idea though, what it could be.

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Soul Search - Apr 28, 2007 8:34 pm (#210 of 322)

wynnleaf, I agree that Bellatrix and Narcissa walked into some context, only hinted to readers. My read is Pettigrew has been there some time, so I rule out a clandestine meeting with Dumbledore or the Order. Actually, I can't even rule that out, since the meeting participants could be aware Pettigrew is listening and all be putting on a staged show for Voldemort. This double-double agent stuff is complicated.

The fact that we were given hints tells us that, whatever it was, will be referenced in Deathly Hallows. Maybe not "crucial," but at least of interest. Of interest to Harry? Can't see how.

Who could have been coming around, with Pettigrew known to be there, yet would know not to come to the door with Bellatrix and Narcissa there? The whole situation seems to be self defeating.

It almost has to have been one or more death eaters meeting on legitimate Voldemort business. Snape was a deatheater; he would be required to help at Voldemort's orders. But, why meet there, instead of at Voldemort's headquarters.

We learned of Voldemort's muggle attacks, Amelia Bones, and Emmeline Vance in the previous chapter, so those events have already happened.

Some possibilities:

Draco. No, he didn't want Snape's help.

Avery. I think Avery is another Dumbledore spy. They would have to be careful, however.

A Voldemort spy at the ministry. There must be some. Sirius says so in the cave in GoF. This would be a perfect fit: meeting in a muggle house, out of common view, hesitation when the sisters are spotted. Who could the spy be? Who was the guard that was conveniently missing from his post when all the death eaters got into the ministry? Eric.

Death eaters planning something we heard about later, incidently. There were a lot of Daily Prophet references I didn't think much about. And Lupin and others dropped references. For example, Igor Kakaroff.
Anyway, just some thoughts.

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Choices - Apr 29, 2007 11:03 am (#211 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Wynnleaf - "It seems highly likely that more was going on in this chapter than met the eye."

I think we could expand that statement to include all six books so far. LOL

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journeymom - Apr 29, 2007 2:38 pm (#212 of 322)

"I have to conclude Narcissa's feelings were genuine. She may have been weeping "crocodile tears" to Snape once inside the house, but I do not think she and Bella were doing a good cop/bad cop routine." -Solitaire

Right, that's why I say I wondered if she was playing 'bad cop' to Narcissa's 'good cop', BUT- (but I know Bella was sincerely upset that Cissy was proceeding with her plan).

And that's why I said Narcissa's not just a mother who loves her son, she's manipulative beneath that helpless facade. At one point her tears ARE genuine and reflect her desperation. But she also sized-up Snape and figured out the best way to implement her plan was to flatter him. (Who knows, maybe Snape had a crush on Cissy once and she's aware of it.)

A little off topic: She's doing this for Draco. What might JKR be telling us with this particular mother/son story? Even if Draco is a Death Eater, he doesn't deserve to die. He might hold detestible opinions about mugglebornes, half breeds, etc, but he made half-hearted attempts to kill Dumbledore and ultimately couldn't kill him. He's not a killer. It's his actions, not his stupid opinions that matter.

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Choices - Apr 29, 2007 2:55 pm (#213 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I would love to know if Draco did not kill Dumbledore because he isn't brave enough to do it or is he not evil enough to do it? I think it took a tremendous amount of courage/bravery for Snape to do it.

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Solitaire - Apr 29, 2007 6:08 pm (#214 of 322)

Choices, I honestly think he was not brave enough to do it f2f (face to face). That is why he tried "long distance" methods first. Throughout the books we have seen that Draco has little regard for Dumbledore's intelligence; he thinks DD is kind of a doddering, Muggle-loving old fool. I think he also believes Dumbledore is so trusting that he would probably not suspect a student of trying to harm him. When it finally becomes apparent that long-distance methods are not working, Draco knows he is probably going to have to face DD himself. Isn't that when he starts falling apart? Just wondering ...

Solitaire

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zelmia - May 11, 2007 4:27 pm (#215 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
On Wormatail: We never do get any sort of answer for why he is there. Nor is he even mentioned again beyond this chapter - which is almost significant in and of itself. Are we to believe that he was just waiting there at Spinner's End, occupying his time with cleaning and dusting and driving out Doxies? I don't think any of us believe that.
It's hard for me to get away from the idea that he was sent there to protect/guard something. Snape can't do it because he's at Hogwarts. But he can offer up his house as a hiding place.
Now if only we could figure out what Wormtail could be keeping an eye on...

Are we really sure that this is Snape's house? Yes, Wormtail does refer to it as "your house" while addressing Snape. But how do we know it really is Snape's house?
For one thing, when even teenage wizards can perform fairly basic spells for cleaning and repairing, it seems a bit strange that Snape – a fully-qualified adult wizard, an extremely skilled Occlumens and Legilimens, and Potions Master and Head of House at Hogwarts – wouldn’t simply flick his wand to repair a “rickety table” or a “threadbare sofa”.
We know from Molly and the Weasleys' cleaning of 12GP that some aspects of cleaning an abandoned wizard house do take a bit of time (i.e. Doxies and similar infestations). But we also know that Snape and Wormtail have been at the house at least long enough for Wormtail to have developed the habit of listening at doors, and for Wormtail to know precisely where the elf-made wine is kept. Surely at least the sitting room of Spinner's End could have been cleared up by the time Narcissa and Bellatrix arrive.
Perhaps it’s because Spinner’s End is not Snape’s home. Though he is certainly living there at the moment, and the other characters seem to believe it’s his house, there is always the possibility that Spinner’s End belongs to someone else (Dumbledore maybe??). This might explain why Snape apparently dispenses with the use of unplotablilty spells (if the house were unplottable, why go to the window to check for either spies or secret helpers?) and a simple tidying charm. It may be that one cannot make a house unplotable if one is not the house’s rightful owner. If this is the case, whose house could Spinner’s End be?

Why go back now? On the other hand, if the house is indeed Snape's ancestral home - which he clearly has not returned to in many years - why go back now? There must be something there that he hasn’t had need of before now. Could it be one of the scores of books lining the shelves of the sitting room, or something in one of the books? Or is he simply offering his house as some sort of base or HQ, the way Sirius did with his?
But again, why not make the house unplottable? Again, it seems the house is not unplottable or otherwise protected since A) The Black Sisters had no trouble finding it and B) Snape goes to the window, apparently to check for shadowy lurkers or, as wynnleaf suggests, to signal some secret ally. If the house were unplottable, there would be no need to check for eavesdroppers and a signal would have been pointless.

I'll stop there for now. I'd like to get your opinions.

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Choices - May 11, 2007 6:44 pm (#216 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I do not see the house as Snape's ancestral home - nothing nearly as grand as that. His father was a Muggle, his mother a witch - I think the house is where they lived, but I do not see it as a home that has been in the family for generations. The Snapes do not appear to have been wealthy people, just the opposite - I see Tobias Snape as a working man living in the lower middle class section of an industrial town. They got by, but there was no money for extras or luxuries. I think Tobias is dead - either dying a natural death or perhaps another victim of Voldemort and his DE's. At that point I think the house became Snape's and he just uses it during summers, so he doesn't bother to fix it up. I think he has more to occupy his mind and his time than worrying about how his house looks.

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journeymom - May 12, 2007 3:40 am (#217 of 322)

Why go back now? I've never even wondered. Huh, I'll have to think on that. A HQ makes sense.

And the comparison to 12 Grimmauld Place is a good one.

Spinners End and Grimmauld Place are both dusty, neglected places.

Grimmauld Pl. was Sirius's childhood home. Might we infer that Spinners End is Snape's childhood home?

Sirius was saddled with this malevolent, creepy, resentful house elf that heard important things and passed them on to Narcissa.

Snape has this creeping, sneaking, resentful Wormtail who is supposed to be 'assisting' him. Wormtail probably listened in when Snape made the UV with Narcissa.

Contrast large, formerly opulent Grimmauld Place with small, obviously humble Spinners End.

(And it's interesting to note that a lot of Snape fan fiction has him hanging out in the enormous library at Grimmauld Place.)

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wynnleaf - May 12, 2007 6:43 am (#218 of 322)

I agree with Choices comment above.

We get other indicators that Snape was from a lower economic background. The graying underwear and used textbooks are clues.

Some readers have wondered if JKR is using Spinners End (the house) to misdirect us again. But at some point, the writer has to be giving us real clues. And I think the bent and drift of the last few books as regards Snape has been to gradually give us more insights into his past.

So when we read of the house having worn furniture, and air of neglect, and in need of cleaning, I think we're being told Snape has had this house for some time, the house was once in use (in order for the furniture to become worn), but has not been used in a long time. The description according to many who know something of English mill towns and the housing that was built around the mills, seem to think the house is a familiar type of worker sort of house, small with two rooms downstairs and 2 rooms upstairs. Obviously, this house has at least a few modifications. The number of bookshelves, including the one on the door that still doesn't prevent the door from opening and closing, probably needed some magic.

Why are they there? Apparently not many people know how to get there. Bella didn't know. Narcissa seems to be quite familiar with the route there, but my impression (maybe completely wrong) was that she'd been there in years past, not necessarily recently. I didn't get the sense that the house was being used for a DE headquarters, especially with Bella assuming she and Cissy were the "first of our kind" to come there. I'm guessing she meant "pureblood" by "our kind" since she obviously knew Snape was there.

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journeymom - May 13, 2007 2:04 pm (#219 of 322)

"I didn't get the sense that the house was being used for a DE headquarters, especially with Bella assuming she and Cissy were the "first of our kind" to come there."

Good point.

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Choices - May 13, 2007 2:12 pm (#220 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm not sure I know exactly what JKR meant when she wrote "first of our kind"....pure bloods? Women? Witches? Sisters? Actually, it's not the first time I have been confused while reading these books. LOL

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journeymom - May 13, 2007 2:16 pm (#221 of 322)

My immediate impression was that she meant "wizards".

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zelmia - May 13, 2007 2:31 pm (#222 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Hm, I always read the "our kind" remark as Wizards, since it follows her remark about the "Muggle dunghill".

I agree that the house is Snape's, but I like to keep an open mind just the same.

I really think Wormtail is hiding something for Voldemort or for his cause at Snape's house. I know most people have pretty much dismissed Horcruxes as a possiblity, but I'm not entirely sure. Voldemort has a pattern of not paying attention or forgetting very simple but vital information (i.e. Phoenix tears have healing powers). Perhaps he "forgot" about the Diary fiasco. Or (more likely, in my opinion) he thinks that Lucius's ego trip with such a valuable artifact was a one off. Lucius is well out of the way now so perhaps by instructing Wormtail on the specifics of why he must not lose track or abuse the object he is guarding, Voldemort can still keep his Horcruxes safe.
And this would also set Wormtail up to ultimately assist or even save Harry and repay his Life Debt.

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MickeyCee3948 - May 13, 2007 5:08 pm (#223 of 322)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I believe that after the resurrection in the graveyard that Tom no longer needs or wants Wormtail around. He is a loose cannon in that Tom cannot trust him. He does not exactly receive great accolades from Tom in the graveyard for his work.

He sends Wormtail to Spinner's End I believe to keep his eyes and ears open. That is the only thing he has proved he is good at for the last 17 years. And remember that Tom trust no one completely, not even Snape. We should also note that Wormtail has not received a single assignment that we are aware of in either of the last two books.

I think it is likely he will betray Snape in DH. He may believe that with Snape out of the way, he will be needed and back in Tom's good graces. As much as I dislike Snape I doubt if his attempt will prove fruitful. Wormtail will probably bite the AK well before the end of the story.

Heck, Harry may even meet Wormtail when he visits the old homestead. Would be kinda fitting, Wormtail betrays his friends at Godrics Hollow and then meets Harry to betray Snape at the same place. JM2K's

Mickey

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wynnleaf - May 13, 2007 7:21 pm (#224 of 322)

I believe that after the resurrection in the graveyard that Tom no longer needs or wants Wormtail around. He is a loose cannon in that Tom cannot trust him. He does not exactly receive great accolades from Tom in the graveyard for his work. (Mickey)

While you might be correct that LV doesn't want him around any more, I don't think it's because Wormtail has not been trustworthy. In fact, he's been more trustworthy than many of LV's supporters, since he went out to find LV and then helped him for a year before LV could regain his body. During all that time, I think LV put a great deal of trust in Wormtail -- perhaps not by choice; he may have felt he had to trust him because no one else was available. But the fact remains that he did give Wormtail a lot of responsibility and Wormtail seemed to carry out all the assignments he was given.

He sends Wormtail to Spinner's End I believe to keep his eyes and ears open. That is the only thing he has proved he is good at for the last 17 years. (Mickey)

Once again, your first sentence may well be correct. But Wormtail has done a lot more than just keeping his eyes and ears open for LV. Remember all the events surrounding Bertha Jorkins and then LV's going to find Barty Jr. Wormtail assisted him during all that. And Wormtail helped in the time LV was living at the Riddle house, as well as getting the cauldron and potion ready for the rebirthing spells. So I think Wormtail has proven that he can do a lot of things.

And don't forget, Wormtail did an excellent job of covering his tracks when he faked his death and killed a dozen muggles in the street, making it look like Sirius was the culprit.

No, Wormtail has shown that he has a lot more ability than we might think if we just go by his cringing demeanor.

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MickeyCee3948 - May 13, 2007 8:02 pm (#225 of 322)

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I agree wynnleaf with most of what you said. But remember by Tom's own statement that the only reason he(Wormtail) went to try and find his master was his own survival. The events with Bertha Jorkins would have been fairly easy considering the muddled condition of her mind after Couch's spell. Most of the sixth year students could have cast the same spell. I expect that most of the other events were done with Tom's direct supervision. Wormtail had little choice. And he(Wormtail)almost screwed up the rebirthing when he allowed Couch Sr. to escape.

All I am saying is that I think Tom probably despises Wormtail. Once a traitor always a traitor. Just couldn't be trusted if you have ANY other choice.

Mickey

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Solitaire - May 13, 2007 8:10 pm (#226 of 322)

If Sirius is to be believed, Wormtail has always been weak and fearful. He likes being on the side of someone who can protect him. Voldemort knows Wormtail is afraid to cross him ... and now, with Dumbledore out of the picture, there doesn't appear to be anyone who could provide Wormtail with the protection he would require to betray Voldemort. Voldemort probably feels pretty secure of Wormtail's "loyalty" ... such as it is. Well, that's my opinion, anyway ... Of course, Voldemort is not always wise, is he?

Solitaire

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frogface - May 14, 2007 11:57 am (#227 of 322)

I think Voldemort told Snape to keep an eye on Peter, and told Peter to keep eye on Snape. He wants to see which of his spy's he can trust more. Snape appears more trustworthy, but he's more of a danger to Voldemort because he is so hard to read. Voldemort isn't always wise as Solitaire says, but he's clearly very intelligent (which isn't the same thing). I think he's put both of them in a situation where if either one of them is planning to betray him, the other one will find out and will rat the betrayer out...pun intended

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zelmia - May 14, 2007 4:34 pm (#228 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
We seem to have painted ourselves into a corner here. We know that Wormtail has not yet fulfilled his Life Debt obligation so perhaps he is mentioned in this chapter only to briefly remind us of that.
It's true that he is far more talented than his quivering cowardice lets on, as Wynnleaf points out. And with Dumbledore now gone (LV might even say "vanquished") Wormtail will really have no one to turn to for protection but the Dark Lord and his minions.
But he is clearly at Spinner's End for some specific reason, apparently on LV's orders.

Snape, on the other hand cannot be there - at least not all the time. So clearly whatever Wormtail is doing does not require full-time observation. And if Snape's confession to Bella is to be believed (and I think it is - always tell as much of the truth as you can so as not to have to cover your tracks later), it also seems pretty clear that LV does trust Snape. I doubt, therefore that either is meant to be monitoring the other.

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Soul Search - May 14, 2007 6:05 pm (#229 of 322)

zelmia,

Good analysis.

Since there can be nothing of Voldemort's interest in the house, Wormtail must be there, mostly, so he isn't around and annoying Voldemort. Makes good sense; Wormtail would annoy me no end.

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wynnleaf - May 15, 2007 1:52 am (#230 of 322)

But Wormtail being there just to get him out of LV's way just isn't much explanation in terms of plot. Why does JKR have him there? I doubt if there's much plot value in "LV is annoyed by Wormtail," or some such. What's the plot value -- I assume for DH -- for why Wormtail is there?

Because this is an entire year before the events of the last book, it seems to me that Wormtail being at Spinners End must play a part in the explanation of something that goes on during the HBP year. Yes, we won't find out about it until the last book, but I think it most likely that Wormtail has done something in HBP for which the explanation has to be backed up by showing Wormtail at Spinners End and perhaps backed up by something said about or to Wormtail during that chapter.

In other words, Wormtail's presence is most likely setting up something that we'll learn about in DH. And that something almost certainly has to do with something that went on in HBP -- else why set up Wormtail in Spinners End all the way back in June/July of that year?

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Soul Search - May 15, 2007 8:21 am (#231 of 322)

wynnleaf,

I like your thoughts regarding Wormtail at Spinner's End. Problem is, JKR has a real nack for providing backstory references that give no real clue to the later story being supported.

That means we will have to speculate broadly.

Maybe it is not so much that Wormtail is at Spinner's End, but that he is not wherever Voldemort is.

Wormtail is the nervous sort. Paranoid, even. In GoF, Wormtail expressed the worry that Voldemort was going to kill him, like Bertha Jorkins.

Wormtail is thinking:

Now Voldemort has sent the loyal Wormtail away from his side. Wormtail can't keep track of Voldemort anymore. Voldemort must be planning to kill him. Wormtail must do something to save himself.
When Snape isn't around, Wormtail has complete freedom of movement. He can leave Spinner's End for a while, to arrange for his safety.

Who would/could he go to?

Would Wormtail go to Harry?

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Ginerva Potter - May 15, 2007 8:48 am (#232 of 322)

Maybe it isn't Wormtail - maybe it's someone else pretending to be wormtail. Just a thought....

Ginny

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zelmia - May 15, 2007 3:06 pm (#233 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I think it's safe to assume that Wormtail is not at Spinner's End solely to be out of Voldemort's way - although no doubt LV considers this a nice bonus. We know that Wormtail is there on LV's orders and that he is meant to be assisting Snape with some task. That information is given to us outright. We also know that Snape and Wormatil have been paired off long enough for Wormtail to have taken to listening at doors.
Way upthread there was the suggestion that perhaps people who had been meeting there were the same Death Eaters who showed up at Hogwarts at the end of HBP. They certainly didn't seem to have any problem following Snape's orders during that attack. In fact it was Snape who led the charge up to the tower while Draco had Dumbledore at wandpoint.
This suggests to me that Snape actually did know what LV had in mind for Draco's mission ("I think he intends for me to do it in the end").

I am still wondering why Narcissa was in such a hurry to get to the house though. Was she simply afraid of being caught going there? It doesn't really seem so to me since it was Bella and not her sister who reflexively AK'd "only a fox".
Was there some deadline hanging over her? Did she have only a certain amount of time to get Snape to make the Vow before it would be ineffectual? Narcissa sure whipped that option out in a hurry so it makes me think that it might have been her reason for going to Snape all along.
On the other hand, clearly Bella was not meant to be included for this visit. And at one point Narcissa does urge Bella to "go back" even zapping Bella with her wand. So perhaps the Vow was not her original intention after all since this charm apparently requires a third party to act as Bonder.
Did she know Wormtail was staying there as well? If so, that would imply that she and Snape have been in contact; or that perhaps Voldemort told her Wormtail was there. Was Narcissa intending for Wormtail to act as Bonder?

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Soul Search - May 15, 2007 3:59 pm (#234 of 322)

zelmia,

All good questions. I have no answers.

I am sure Voldemort would stick Wormtail with Snape, just to get him out from under foot. And out from hearing what was going on at Voldemort's headquarters. Wormtail could have begun his "listening at doors" practice at Voldemort's headquarters.

Their GoF conversations clearly establish Voldemort doesn't think much of Wormtail's abilities. Wormtail did let Crouch Sr. escape. Nor does Voldemort trust Wormtail; he was, after all, a traitor to the Potters and traitors can never be trusted. Wormtail shies at Snape's suggestion of an assignment more dangerous than cleaning or mixing drinks.

Wormtail isn't pleased. He found the Dark Lord, brought Bertha Jorkins to him, brought the Dark Lord back from Albania, helped bring Harry Potter to him, and then sacrificed his hand so the Dark Lord could get a body. Being exiled to Spinner's End, with the hated Snape, is all the reward he gets. (Remember, it was Wormtail laughing while James and Sirius cursed Snape in the OotP pensive scene. Voldemort must be really enjoying the delicious situation he created.)

I still think Wormtail is at Spinner's End to increasingly worry until he goes to Harry with some important information, expecting Harry to reward him with safety. Harry, of course, will use him as a curse practice dummy.

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Madame Pomfrey - May 16, 2007 9:59 am (#235 of 322)

I have a question. Snape told Bella and Cissy that the info he had passed to Voldemort led to the capture and torture of Emmaline Vance and helped dispose of Sirius Black. Now we know that it was Kreature who passed info to Narcissus and it was also Kraeture who injured Buckbeak to keep Sirius hidden when Harry came to check if Sirius was there. How is it Snape can say his information helped dispose of Sirius with Narcissa knowing it not to be true?

Snape found out Sirius was alive and well at Grimmauld.When Harry didn't return from the forrest he alerted the Order that Harry was on a rescue mission(in my own words.)Snape requested Sirius to remain behind at HQ, which he didn't. In the meantime Dumbledore said Snape "intended" to search the forrest for Harry. Now, where was Snape when the battle at the Ministry was happening? I do not think Snape searched the forrest or Dumbledore would have said he did. It sounds like Snape intended to search the forrest,but something came up.

How did Snape help dispose of Sirius? Would not Narcissus recognize it to be a lie?

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Nathan Zimmermann - May 16, 2007 10:32 am (#236 of 322)

I doubt Narcissa would expose any lies that Severus told because, above all else Narcissa seemed genuinely concerned for Draco's welfare. I would argue that Narcissa understands that in order to protect Draco she needs Severus. If Draco failed Voldemort would motly likely have ordered his execution and Bella demented as she is would probably have carried out the order without any thought given to any familial connections, after all she murdered Sirius her cousin and seriously injured her niece Nymphadora.
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journeymom - May 16, 2007 11:23 am (#237 of 322)

Nathan, familial connection- after all she murdered Sirius her cousin and seriously injured her niece Nymphadora. Good examples. But notice Bella did go with Narcissa to Snape's house. Bella does not go straight to Voldemort and tattle on Narcissa like the loyal DE she is. She instead tries to convince Narcissa to give up this dangerous plan of circumventing Lord Voldemort.

Also, Bella teaches Draco how to do occlumency. And not only can Draco block Snape from seeing his mind, but he can also block Voldemort. (Well, to some extent. LV being the best legilimens and all that. ) Anyway, Sirius and Tonks were both blood traitors. Narcissa is not.

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zelmia - May 16, 2007 1:15 pm (#238 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Madame Pompfrey, it's been too long for me to recall the order of events in the closing chapters of OP. You may need to refresh my memory with a citation from the book.
But the information that Snape could have passed to Voldemort (assuming he genuinely did so) that led to Sirius's "disposal" may have been that Harry was psychically linked to Voldemort. Snape had been giving Harry the Occlumency lessons specifically because of this connection, so Snape could have told LV about it. In fact we know that the MOM situation was a trap so perhaps this is indeed what occured.

But I don't think Snape was necessarily lying about his hand in things. Again, the first rule of survival for any double agent (anyone ever watch Alias?) is always to tell as much of the truth as you can get away with. As for Kreacher, Narcissa may have just assumed that he was coming to her on Snape's instructions since House Elves are not generally believed to do anything of their own accord. They are always instructed/ordered to do things. Dobby seems to have been a very rare exception - and now Kreacher as well, Dobby's polar opposite.

I agree with Journeymom with regard to Bella. She and Narcissa are obviously very close and she is doing what she feels she must do to try to protect her sister and her nephew. While she seems to feel that Draco should be proud to die for the Cause, she has also attempted to give him valuable skills that might prevent him from being killed.
Not only does she not run to LV to "tattle" on her sister for being at Spinner's End, it seems that there is a chink in Bella's armour of blind devotion. "On [Snape] I think the Dark Lord may be mistaken..." So we know that Bellatrix can think for herself. We also know that seeds of doubt about LV's omnipotence have been planted in the back of Bella's mind. This could come into play at some point later in the story.

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me and my shadow 813 - May 16, 2007 5:39 pm (#239 of 322)

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I agree with Journeymom with regard to Bella. She and Narcissa are obviously very close and she is doing what she feels she must do to try to protect her sister and her nephew. While she seems to feel that Draco should be proud to die for the Cause, she has also attempted to give him valuable skills that might prevent him from being killed. - zelmia

My impression is Bella only taught Draco Occlumency to block Severus whom she despises. I think she only went with Narcissa to Spinner's End because she didn't want her sister betraying Vold's plan, and because she wanted to confront Severus after years of pent up resentment towards him. To me Bella has no loyalty to anyone except Vold: not to her sister, nor her nephew, no one. I think she'd kill her husband in cold blood if Vold told her to.

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Choices - May 16, 2007 6:09 pm (#240 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Wow, Me and My, that is pretty harsh, but you know what? I totally agree. :-)

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me and my shadow 813 - May 18, 2007 3:36 pm (#241 of 322)

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Yeah, to me Bella is a poster child for the brainwashed cult-follower who has no opinion outside of the Leader's opinion. Her allegience to Vold knows no bounds, should be interesting to watch her demise in DH.

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Solitaire - May 19, 2007 8:52 am (#242 of 322)

I'm afraid I, too, agree with Shadow on this one. I think poor, deluded, insane Bella is sold out for Voldy and would betray even her sis and nephew, if the stakes were high enough. Sorry, Bella ...

Solitaire

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haymoni - May 19, 2007 11:26 am (#243 of 322)

See, this is why I think "Trixie" would have been a better nickname for her than Bella.

She has nothing to live for but herself. I don't think she gives a hoot about her husband. (Where is he, by the way?)

She's looking for anything she can to get herself back into Voldy's good graces. Sissy better watch out!

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zelmia - May 19, 2007 11:32 am (#244 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Bella is a poster child for the brainwashed cult-follower who has no opinion outside of the Leader's opinion.

In fact, Bella quite adamantly disagrees with her Leader's opinion of Snape: "The Dark Lord is... I believe... mistaken." And rightfully so, as it happens. If she is willing to voice this openly - if only to her sister - there may be other areas where Bella has begun to see faults in Voldemort's leadership.

I think poor, deluded, insane Bella is sold out for Voldy and would betray even her sis and nephew, if the stakes were high enough.

How much higher would they have to be? Not only has Bella been demoted in the heirarchy of the Inner Circle, she has also been supplanted by the "prodigal" Snape. To Bella this is the worst insult yet. And to get back at Snape and her place in line back, all she would have to do would be to let Voldemort know what Narcissa and Snape are up to behind his back.
But she doesn't. She doesn't march straight in to Voldie's HQ when she learns what Narcissa is planning. Instead Bella races to her sister's side, trying vainly to convince her sister to please just be a good little Death Eater and stay out of trouble. Quite the opposite of betrayal, actually.

If Bella were only "out for Voldy" she would never have appeared in this chapter in the first place. The conversation between the sisters on the way to Spinner's End was a private one. Therefore I think it's safe to assume their emotions were genuine; that Bella was not showing off for anyone or trying to lure anyone into revealing anything, etc. If Bella were only "out for Voldy" there would have been no need to include any of this. Just the fact that she has a presence in this chapter at all tells us that she has doubts.

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me and my shadow 813 - May 19, 2007 2:54 pm (#245 of 322)

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Interesting, zelmia. I don't see the beginning of the chapter in that way, but I see your point. I think Bella saying Vold was "mistaken" is purely her loathing/jealousy of Severus's position as Vold's favourite. This might be the only thing more powerful than her allegiance to Vold: her jealousy of Severus, which, ironically, will grow even more potent now that Severus took the Vow and "murdered" DD all in Vold's name (according to the DE's).

I don't think Bella would gain anything by telling Vold about what Narcissa and Severus were up to behind his back simply because she was there and probably in his eyes didn't do enough to stop it.

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zelmia - May 19, 2007 3:22 pm (#246 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I don't think Bella would gain anything by telling Vold about what Narcissa and Severus were up to behind his back simply because she was there and probably in his eyes didn't do enough to stop it.

Yes, that I can agree with. Which is why, I'm certain, Snape kind of weasled her into acting as Bonder. Bella being the Bonder of the Vow would indicate a level of complicity on her part in the meeting.

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journeymom - May 19, 2007 11:59 pm (#247 of 322)

And don't forget Wormtail was there.

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wynnleaf - May 20, 2007 5:27 pm (#248 of 322)

zelmia, interesting thoughts about Bella.

I admit, I've always seen her as the most fanatical follower and tend to agree with Solitaire and me and my shadow on this one. On the other hand, sometimes fanatical followers can turn on their leader in a very volatile manner over any sort of perceived deviation in the leader.

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Madame Pomfrey - May 21, 2007 8:41 am (#249 of 322)

After my 3rd reread of Spinners End I had to ask myself if Snape knew what "the plan" was prior to taking the vow? He said he knew.I assumed he was lying and was trying to find out through Legilmens(sp?) I don't see enough evidence supporting this.He didn't have eye contact with Narcissus long enough,IMO,until the Vow was made. My question is,If the task was to kill Dumbledore isn't it possible that Snape only found out about the vows full meaning while he was on his knees staring into Cissy's eyes,which would explain the"twitch"?

Perhaps,he read enough from Cissy to know that part of it was to get DE into the school and didn't realize the second step was to kill Dumbledore until it was too late to back out.

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Thom Matheson - May 21, 2007 9:35 am (#250 of 322)

Is that like only hearing the first half of the prophacy?

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Spinner's End Dissected (Post 251 to 300)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:17 am

Choices - May 21, 2007 10:04 am (#251 of 322)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I would venture to guess that Snape knew full well that there was a death threat against Dumbledore. He could not have hung around Voldemort without knowing that Voldemort wanted Dumbledore dead. Voldemort had to know that Dumbledore was mentoring Harry and he needed to get rid of Dumbledore to prevent him teaching Harry enough to make him more of a threat to Voldemort. Dumbledore was the only one Voldemort ever feared. Being rid of Dumbledore could only be helpful to him.

I recently read a theory that stated the belief that Snape actually maneuvered the conversation around so that Narcissa would propose the Unbreakable Vow. I tend to believe that Snape was totally in charge of what went on a Spinner's End and he did finagle Narcissa into asking for a UV. Snape knew that Dumbledore was dying and that he would be seeming to kill Dumbledore at the end of the year as part of the plan and thus would fulfill the vow.

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Solitaire - May 21, 2007 8:12 pm (#252 of 322)

She doesn't march straight in to Voldie's HQ when she learns what Narcissa is planning.

To be fair, we do not know that she has not done this, since most of her time is spent "off camera." While she would have a tough time explaining her role as bonder in a plot to deceive Voldemort, I am sure she could find a way to justify it--probably by saying she was testing Snape in some way. I do not think Voldemort is going to blast her to kingdom come for misbehaving ... or he'd have done so before now. As long as he can make use of her and her fanatical loyalty to him, he will allow her to live. When she has outlived her usefulness, she will be cast aside ... either AK'd or banished from his circle. JM2K ...

Solitaire

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me and my shadow 813 - May 22, 2007 3:17 pm (#253 of 322)

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I tend to believe that Snape was totally in charge of what went on a Spinner's End and he did finagle Narcissa into asking for a UV. - Choices

I agree and would go so far as to say he knew they were on their way. I concluded this because Severus asks Bella if she thinks the Dark Lord is "mistaken" about him, Severus. This was the exact word she used with Narcissa just before arriving at Spinner's End, and JKR wouldn't flippantly use exact wording in such close proximity (same chapter, same subject, all within the allusion of Severus using Legilimency on them).

While she would have a tough time explaining her role as bonder in a plot to deceive Voldemort, I am sure she could find a way to justify it--probably by saying she was testing Snape in some way. - Solitaire

I would tend to agree but I think Vold is getting sick of Bella. Although she gets "credit" for killing Sirius, he was still curt with her at the MoM battle and his patience must surely be wearing thin(ner) in general. I don't think Vold doubts Severus's loyalty, which is why JKR made a point of Narcissa saying Severus is the favourite and Bella didn't contradict her. And that was even before he "murdered" DD. If it came to Bella testing Severus in Vold's eyes, I don't see anything at Spinner's End which helps her case or hinders Severus's. The only thing which might be less than noble in Vold's eyes is if Vold did not tell Severus of the "plan" and Severus lied about knowing from Vold directly. Then he'd be in trouble.

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Ungrateful Son - May 22, 2007 4:39 pm (#254 of 322)

haymoni's son
Well maybe he is actually a good guy. I mean after you get past the whole ego and only liking his House. Yea right! Really, does any one think Harry has a chance against him? Harry is going to get the stuffing ripped out of him!

So the question is what is Snape? Good or evil? Well if this is like the video games I have played with good and evil, he would be a full-blown sith in any Knights of the Old Republic or a devil-looking man with horns the size of elephant tusks in Fable. I say this for he was pretty much playing trickster like Choices had said with Mrs. Malfoy. I agree with that.

He chose to do the UV. She didn't make him do it. He wanted the glory of killing Dumbledore.

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Choices - May 22, 2007 4:57 pm (#255 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Glory? Oh yeah, that must have been the look of hatred and revulsion on his face. I guess old Snape just has an odd way of showing how happy he is.

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zelmia - May 22, 2007 5:00 pm (#256 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well, I would say that in a way Narcissa did make Snape take the Vow. There would have been no way for Snape to refuse without confirming Bella's suspicions.
As for the video game references, I have no idea what any of that means. But I take it that you believe Snape to be "evil"? If so, seems odd that he would have bothered taking the Vow which goes deliberately behind Voldemort's back.
Whether or not "he wanted the glory of killing Dumbledore" (which we don't even know anything about, at this point in the story), he still disobeyed his Dark Lord on some level. They all did. That is pretty telling to me.

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MickeyCee3948 - May 22, 2007 7:49 pm (#257 of 322)

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Snape did say that he believed that Tom expected him to finish the job if Draco couldn't or something to that effect(close to those words).

Glad to have another Snape is evil convert Ungrateful Son.

Choices have we EVER seen "old Snape" looking happy unless he was sneering at Harry?

Mickey

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Solitaire - May 23, 2007 2:31 am (#258 of 322)

Snape did say that he believed that Tom expected him to finish the job if Draco couldn't or something to that effect

As much as I hate to say this--you know how much I dislike Snape--what he actually says is this: "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy."

Notice that Snape does not say "The Dark Lord intends me to do it in the end ..." Does he, in this instance, refer to Dumbledore? If you believe that Snape and Dumbledore had a predetermined understanding about Dumbledore's death, then it must be considered. After all, he would know more than anyone that Snape would be forced to leave if he killed--or it appeared that he had killed--Dumbledore.

Solitaire

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Madame Pomfrey - May 23, 2007 8:35 am (#259 of 322)

Good catch,Soli! "He"could refer to Dumbledore and that would prove that Dumbledore was on to the plot and would have Snape kill him rather than Draco,a student.This makes me want to reevaluate the "stopper death" theory because why would Dumbledore even consider this unless he already knew he was dying.After staying up late reading over the varius interviews given over the years by JKR in which she has mentioned Snape,I cannot see him being on the side of good.Everything I have read leads me to believe that he is evil,but will redeem himself.However,with all the good theories floating about,I remain confused.

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zelmia - May 23, 2007 9:37 am (#260 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Yes, there are a lot of pronouns in Snape's statement; and the fact that Snape says only "...intends me to do it ..." sounds to me like he wasn't entirely sure what "it" might be, at this point.

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journeymom - May 23, 2007 2:17 pm (#261 of 322)

Well, whether Snape knew or not, we certainly don't know!

That's a great catch, Soli and Zelmia. He intends me to do it. Not exactly specific there, is it?

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Choices - May 23, 2007 5:12 pm (#262 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Journeymom - "Not exactly specific there, is it?"

Like just about everything else in the HP books. LOL

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Soul Search - May 23, 2007 5:28 pm (#263 of 322)

"Spinner's End" clearly tells us that Narcissa has been to Snape's house before.

She apparates to a river bank, climbs up to a road, cuts through an alley to another street, and then goes straight to Snape's house. No looking at street signs or house numbers, or anything. She has been there more than once.

Yet, Bellatrix not only has ever been there, but she didn't even know it existed.

To pursuade Snape to help her, Narcissa calls on his relationship with Lucius, but not on any relationship between herself and Snape. Yet, if Narcissa has been to Snape's house on even a few occasions, they should be almost as much friends as Snape and Lucius.

We get some small hints that Snape and Lucius are, at least, friendly, but no clue how or why. Narcissa being familiar with Snape's house adds a bit to this mystery.

True, they were all death eaters at the same time, but this hardly seems a good reason for Snape to invite them to his house. There must be more going on.

Any ideas that might play out in Deathly Hallows?

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me and my shadow 813 - May 23, 2007 5:39 pm (#264 of 322)

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Interesting questions, Soul Search. I'd say Lucius wouldn't set foot in Spinner's End, nor would he permit Narcissa to go without him. Coupled with the fact that Bella obviously had never been there, it seems either (a)Narcissa was friendly with Severus before her marriage and visited him or (b)she's recently been visiting Severus secretly for some reason. Hmm. My opinion on how it will play out in DH (and I've voiced it before) is-- I think Narcissa is not a DE, she will take her son and go under the Order's protection via Severus, Lucius will die by the end of the book and she & Severus will end up "together".

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MickeyCee3948 - May 23, 2007 9:20 pm (#265 of 322)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
me and my shadow 813 I also agree that Narcissa and Draco will have to seek protective custody from the order. Tom will not be happy with Draco that he did not possess the ability to finish off DD.

I don't know if Narcissa is a DE but she was at least tolerant of her husband's activities.

I think that we have seen the last of Lucius, Tom isn't going to try to get him out. But since I think Severus will end up as Lucius's roommate, I doubt if he will be able to strike anything up with Narcissa. At least that's my opinion.

Mickey

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Soul Search - May 23, 2007 10:50 pm (#266 of 322)

me and my shadow 813,

I like "(b)she's recently been visiting Severus secretly for some reason."

Narcissa seems truly dedicated to her husband and son. I could see her using Snape's relationship with Lucius to ask him for help with Lucius, then Draco. I had a suspicion that Snape was expecting Narcissa, or at least not particularly surprised to see her, but Bellatrix' presense required both to act more remotely.

I do wonder how much of a death eater Narcissa is. Draco was alone at the quiditch world cup, so Narcissa was with Lucius tormenting the muggles. Narcissa was rather nasty in HBP, the robe shop, but I will allow she was upset and Harry was, after all, responsible for Lucius being in Azkaban. I can't think of any other hints about Narcissa being a death eater.

I agree with her and Draco going into some sort of protection program, but I think Lucius will help Harry somehow.

I don't see any romantic interest for Snape.

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Solitaire - May 23, 2007 10:54 pm (#267 of 322)

I am curious about the measures being taken to keep the DEs incarcerated in Azkaban, now that the Dementors are gone. It makes me wonder ... are the DEs just as happy to be where they are? Perhaps it is preferable to the wrath of Voldemort. I just can't help thinking Lucius could have gotten out by now, if he'd really put his mind and talents to the task.

Zelmia, I agree that the "it" "he" intended "me" to do could really be anything. Since the specific task was left deliberately unnamed, "it" could be just about anything!

Solitaire

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Madame Pomfrey - May 24, 2007 6:33 am (#268 of 322)

I would like to know more about the relationship between Snape and Lucius. Remember at the end of GoF when Harry named Malfoy as a Death Eater Snape made a sudden movement which was never explained.I still want to know what that was all about.

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me and my shadow 813 - May 24, 2007 4:54 pm (#269 of 322)

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I agree, Madame. I'm sure everyone is aware of Severus's half-blood status, since Hermione found the Prince/Snape wedding announcement with little effort. Lucius probably wouldn't be too keen on associating with him if not for the DE thing. I also don't feel Severus has much regard for Lucius, but that's not based on anything tangible.

Draco was alone at the quiditch world cup, so Narcissa was with Lucius tormenting the muggles. - Soul Search

I didn't think that at all. I don't think she would get her hands that dirty. I don't think she is a DE, and I don't think she practices what they are into. To me she is simply a stuck-up "pure-blood" of privilege who merely took on the attitudes which were passed on to her through breeding. With a crisis brewing in her life, this could easily change for the better.

Solitaire, I agree -- Lucius is not complaining one bit about being in Azkaban. With no Dementors to suck souls there, he's unquestionably safer.

edited for clarity

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Choices - May 24, 2007 6:54 pm (#270 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I would tend to think that Narcissa has been to visit Snape before, except for the fact that we see Dumbledore and Harry go right to the house that Slughorn is "borrowing" temporarily. I don't think Dumbledore had ever been there (Slughorn was moving frequently) and yet he and Harry went right to the house without any problem. Perhaps magical folk have built in radar for finding out of the way, unfamiliar places.

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Hoot Owl - May 24, 2007 10:06 pm (#271 of 322)

Teacher
Draco was not alone at the QWC. He sat between his parents directly behind the Weasleys in the top box. The Malfoys were guests of Fudge and spent most of their time sneering down at muggle born Hermione.

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journeymom - May 24, 2007 10:21 pm (#272 of 322)

Hoot Owl, later while the Death Eaters were spreading havoc and roughing up the muggle family, the trio took a trail up into the woods. Draco was just hanging out by himself and took the opportunity to pester them. So he was away from his parents.

I can't see Narcissa doing anything like carousing with that lot of drunken reprobates. She probably took a portkey back home as soon as the game was over. Had a nice ladies night with Bella, while the men were gone. They painted each others nails, watched "Sleepless in Seattle", drank mojitos and slept until 11:00 the next morning.

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zelmia - May 24, 2007 10:30 pm (#273 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I agree that just because Narcissa knew where to go to find Snape doesn't mean that she had been there before. We have all had the experience of having no trouble finding places where we have never been just by looking up the address on Mapquest(tm) for example. There must certainly be a Wizard World version of Mapquest(tm).
In fact, if I recall the instructions the students were given for Apparating, they are meant, essentially, to think of where they want to go and then imagine themselves there. Perhaps Narcissa needed only to think that she wanted to "go where Snape is" and she popped in nearby. This is only a suggestion of course.

I disagree, though, that Snape didn't seem surprised to see Narcissa. He acted - to my mind - just as anyone would who was not expecting visitors. In fact, I think he acted like any other man who opens the door to find a woman he is fond of... Oh. Great. And her cranky and less attractive (even ugly) sister/friend/room-mate who he can't stand.

I have a hard time imagining that any Snape-Lucius intimacy goes beyond their both being in Voldie's Inner Circle, and of course Draco.

EDIT: Journeymom, that's huh-LARE-ee-uss!

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me and my shadow 813 - May 25, 2007 3:42 pm (#274 of 322)

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zelmia, I like your suggestion about apparating to a certain person/location except that I'd imagine Severus's home to have a certain protection around it. As we know, if one said 'I want to go where Snape is' while he was at Hogwarts, one would be out of luck. I think there's more to Narcissa and Severus's connection, but I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things. Even if they never met privately before chapter two of HBP, there's still a possibility their contact will continue in the future as speculated in recent posts.

In a similar vein as Severus's house having protection, I think he'd have an 'alarm' similar to Slughorn's which indicates when someone apparates/approaches nearby. Coupled with his Legilimency abilities without eye contact, I think Severus was faking surprise to see the sisters.

journeymom, thou art funny ; )

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zelmia - May 25, 2007 9:13 pm (#275 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well actually, Shadow, that brings us back to one of my original questions about Spinner's End. Why does Snape look out the window after the sisters enter?
It's pretty clear that he's checking that there isn't anyone else out there who might overhear their conversation. If there is some sort of protection on the house, why does he feel the need to do this? I think there can be only two reasons for this:
a) there is no protection on the House
b) whatever protection there usually is has been "deactivated" for some reason i.e. Snape is expecting someone else.
Now who could Snape have been expecting? He most certainly wasn't expecting the Black sisters.

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Choices - May 26, 2007 10:28 am (#276 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have always thought that perhaps the look out the window was just to buy him some time - time to gather his thoughts or to tailor his plan to fit the occassion - he was just taking some time to think.

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journeymom - May 26, 2007 11:52 am (#277 of 322)

Well, if you could simply say, " I want to go where Severus Snape is" the Aurors would have done that already.

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me and my shadow 813 - May 28, 2007 3:29 pm (#278 of 322)

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zelmia, I've posted a lot about the symbolism of Spinner's End, and to me Severus looking out the window paralleled his Legilimency (looking through the window) of Narcissa's mind. I agree with Choices, on the physical level he was biding time as he performed Legilimency on a wine-softened Narcissa to find out what Vold's secret plan for Draco was.

journeymom, exactly right. It cannot be that easy.

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wynnleaf - May 29, 2007 9:26 am (#279 of 322)

A few comments on the last 10 or so posts.

My feeling is that JKR described Snape's house in such a "labyrinth" of streets, and so complicated to find in order to give the impression that only someone who really knew where they were going would be able to go directly to the house without getting at least a bit lost. In other words, I think JKR is trying to show that Narcissa had been there before, without coming right out and saying so.

As regards Lucius... In OOTP, Sirius commented on some sort of relationship between Snape and Lucius, calling Snape Malfoy's "lapdog," saying, "Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days? I expect he’s delighted his lapdog’s working at Hogwarts, isn’t he?" Sirius had been in Azkaban for 12 years, on the run living rough for 2 years, and only at Grimmauld Place for about 6 months. That sentence with the "lapdog" comment seems to reference some much earlier notion that Sirius had about Snape and Lucius' friendship. Yet prior to Sirius going to Azkaban, he didn't know Snape was a spy and Snape wasn't a member of the Order. Following Hogwarts, Sirius said that there was no hint that Snape was a Death Eater. Therefore Sirius' knowledge and any inferences he made about Snape and any of his friendships would be based on their days at Hogwarts. I think it's most likely then, that Snape had some sort of friendship with Lucius even as a Hogwarts student, and even though Lucius was about 5 or 6 years older than him.

It's probably correct that the Malfoys knew Snape was a half-blood. Many of the pureblood families seem to keep up with that kind of thing. They'd know that Eileen Prince married a muggle. But for whatever reason, this didn't appear to stand in the way of some sort of friendship or at least some kind of relationship between Lucius and Snape. And Narcissa apparently considered that friendship a true enough friendship that she'd call on Snape's friendship with Lucius as a motive for helping her son.

Even Draco, in several of the books, seems to consider Snape very favorably and strongly suggests that his father thinks highly of Snape as well.

Here's my guess. I'm guessing that Lucius was a 6th or 7th year and probably a prefect when Snape came to Hogwarts. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucius gave Snape some protection while he was there. As a far younger student from a poorer half-blood background, Snape may have really looked up to the aristocratic Malfoy who protected him -- maybe sort of hero-worshipped him. I'd guess that it was Malfoy that led Snape into the DE's, possibly because his strong skills in potions made Malfoy think he'd be a great asset to LV. Anyway, I think that after Snape turned to DD and after LV's fall, Snape may have wanted to believe that Malfoy really was imperioused, so that he wouldn't have to turn against him. Then when Lucius went back at the end of GOF, Harry's mentioning his name as one of the DEs present caused Snape to startle because it was evidence that Lucius had joined LV of his own free will and was now back with him.

So back to Spinners End. I thought even on my first reading of the chapter that Snape would always have protected Draco, regardless of Narcissa's visit. I felt that he went ahead with the vow because the whole focus of the conversation and Cissy's pleading had been about protecting Draco which Snape would have done anyway. So he had no problem committing even his life to a promise to do that. If Lucius had protected Snape when he was a 1st or 2nd year at Hogwarts, Snape would be even more likely to be willing to protect Draco. Besides, I think Snape likes Draco in spite of his faults. He's probably known him since he was a baby.

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journeymom - May 29, 2007 10:13 am (#280 of 322)

Nicely done, Wynnleaf.

I think that after Snape turned to DD and after LV's fall, Snape may have wanted to believe that Malfoy really was imperioused, so that he wouldn't have to turn against him. Then when Lucius went back at the end of GOF, Harry's mentioning his name as one of the DEs present caused Snape to startle because it was evidence that Lucius had joined LV of his own free will and was now back with him.

This makes a lot of sense.

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me and my shadow 813 - May 29, 2007 5:40 pm (#281 of 322)

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journeymom, has Mr. Rickman signed on as Arthur Fonzerelli for the remake of Happy Days? Sorry, off topic ; )

Good stuff, wynnleaf.

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Madame Pomfrey - May 29, 2007 9:04 pm (#282 of 322)

That answers my question about Snapes "sudden movement" perfectly,Wynnleaf. It hadn't occured to me that he might be startled.

So,what is your take on this one.In an interview JKR stated that most DE were purebloods except under special circumstances.I wished I good find and provide the quote. Now that we know Snape is a half-blood do you think she was referring to Snape?If so,I wonder what the special circumstances are?

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wynnleaf - May 30, 2007 8:02 am (#283 of 322)

me and my shadow and journeymom, thanks!

Madame Pomfrey, I think the quote you're remembering is actually about muggleborns, which is quite interesting, but wouldn't apply to Snape. Here is the quote from JKR's website:

Apart from Harry, Snape is my favourite character because he is so complex and I just love him. Can he see the Thestrals, and if so, why? Also, is he a pure blood wizard? Snape’s ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle born, because Muggle borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances.

The interesting thing here is that her quote implies that halfbloods can be DEs with no problem, it's the muggleborns which can only be DEs in special circumstances. So who is the "special circumstance?" Wow -- new thread, anyone?

Anyway, it sounds like Snape being half-blood is no real problem for the DEs. So Bella might look down on Snape for not being pureblood, but it wouldn't be anything to actually hide. Therefore living in the muggle Spinners End, and Snape's muggle father wouldn't ever have needed to be a big secret from Voldemort.

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Madame Pomfrey - May 30, 2007 8:18 pm (#284 of 322)

Thanks for the quote,Wynnleaf. That would make an interesting new topic for discussion.Who is the muggleborn DE and why was he/she allowed in? Hmm..

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zelmia - Jun 11, 2007 11:06 pm (#285 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I am now "re-reading" HBP by listening to the audio version. I would like to point out that whenever I listen to the audio versions of the HP saga, I find that I pick up different things than I do in just reading them myself.

Anyway, after listening to this chapter again I am almost convinced that Snape knew exactly what Draco's mission was supposed to be. He tells Narcissa "If you are imagining I can persuade the Dark Lord to change his mind, I am afraid there is no hope. None at all."
Now, we have seen compelling arguements that in fact Snape merely used his Legilimency skills to tweeze out Narcissa's reason for being there. Perhaps. I'm wondering how this could be possible, unless Snape is the original multi-tasker.
He has spent the last 10 minutes or so explaining to Bella (and we readers) everything she ever wanted to know about why Snape is still walking around in the daylight and not a disembodied misty memory. Then he gets up and walks completely away from both Bella and Narcissa to close the drapes - which, it has been suggested, was the point at which he makes the decision to reel Narcissa in.
It was my understanding from the Occlumency lessons in OP (and later in HBP as well) that Snape had to be able to make eye contact in order for the Legilimency to work properly. But presumably someone in Snape's position as "double agent" would have learned VERY early on how to perform both Occlumency and Legilimency whilst doing other things at the same time. However, Draco says, "I know what you're trying to do" (in the corridor outside Slughorn's party - HBP). This seems to indicate that Snape was not particularly subtle in that instance. Why? Draco, who was only just learning the skill, was quite easily able to identify what Snape was doing. Had Snape let his guard down completely? Or is it because - and I think this is more likely - Snape cannot "multi-task" whilst performing Legilimency?
If the latter, as I believe, then Snape must have been in on "the Plan" just as he says he was. If he wasn't in on the plan and he was merely using his Legilimency skills, that strikes me as a particularly dangerous move when considering that Bellatrix, an Occlumens/Legilimens herself, was sitting right there.

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Soul Search - Jun 12, 2007 6:05 am (#286 of 322)

We learn that Bellatrix is also skilled at Occlumency and Legilimency well after "Spinner's End." On a second read, or listen, I can interpret Snape's actions as responses to Bellatrix's attempts to read Snape's mind. For example, his break with her as he moves to the window.

Was there an intense mental fight going on while Snape was explaining his actions to Bellatrix?

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wynnleaf - Jun 12, 2007 8:08 am (#287 of 322)

As regards Draco knowing that Snape was trying to use legilimency, that could be because he felt it, but there are other possibilities.

If we, the readers, tend to assume that Snape is often using legilimency or attempting it, I think Draco could -- and should -- assume the same thing. Even if he couldn't actually feel anything, he would know to be on the alert around Snape and any intent "look."

In addition, Snape apparently didn't know that Bella had been teaching Draco, and so he may have used a more direct and less subtle form on Draco, as he did on Harry, than he might use on an adult who is aware of his abilities.

Good idea about Snape turning around toward the window. It could easily have been to avoid Bella's legilimency, although anyone who can trick LV could trick Bella as well, I'd think.

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zelmia - Jun 12, 2007 10:05 am (#288 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
We learn that Bellatrix is also skilled at Occlumency and Legilimency well after "Spinner's End."
Well yes, we learned it then. But presumably, inside the story, Snape already knew this about her.

...anyone who can trick LV could trick Bella as well, I'd think.
Yes, I thought about that and I completely agree with that - as well as the idea that Draco may simply have been advised to "be on the alert" around Snape. But even so, why would Snape be so obvious around Draco - who, apart from anything else was an upperclassman with a certain amount of magical ability in his own right? Was he just being lazy?

Bella seems far too agitated and emotionally charged to be performing any kind of Legilimency in this scene. As I recall, Snape repeatedly admonished Harry for not clearing his mind and ridding himself of all emotion.

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Solitaire - Jun 12, 2007 7:39 pm (#289 of 322)

Draco says, "I know what you're trying to do" (in the corridor outside Slughorn's party - HBP). This seems to indicate that Snape was not particularly subtle in that instance.

Is it possible that Draco (through Bella, from LV) knows about Snape's Legilimency and just assumes that Snape is attempting to probe his thoughts? Then again, didn't Remus say in OotP that Snape was a superb Occlumens? I do not remember anyone discussing his ability as a Legilimens. Didn't we just deduce his talents based on his ability to "read" Harry? Well, maybe Harry is an "easy read."

As troubled and upset as Narcissa was at Spinner's End, is it possible that Snape would be able to "read" her even without looking into her eyes? After all, he already knew that her fear for Draco and the task he had to perform was foremost in her mind. Perhaps she was telegraphing (without realizing it) her thoughts to Snape. Just a thought ...

Solitaire

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zelmia - Jun 12, 2007 10:02 pm (#290 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well that is certainly the way I have been reading it, Solitaire. By the way, I would think that in order for Snape to teach Harry Occlumency, he would have to be able to use Legilimency on Harry - which, admittedly Snape wouldn't have to be very good at to "read" Harry.

It occurs to me, though, that Bella may have been teaching Draco as a result of her visit to Spinner's End. She made it clear to one and all that she doesn't trust Snape. And in spite of his having made the Vow, perhaps that isn't enough to convince her that Snape isn't up to something.

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Solitaire - Jun 12, 2007 10:50 pm (#291 of 322)

Well, if Dumbledore is really dead and Snape has just temporarily "stoppered death" for him, so that he can work with Harry as long as possible--I know some have suggested this idea--then Snape wouldn't really have to kill Dumbledore, would he? (How can you kill someone who is already dead?) Taking the Vow would not really require him to kill. All he would have to do is "unstopper" death and let things take their course. He could have made it look like Draco had killed Dumbledore. Of course, it didn't go down that way, did it, so he had to do something else.

I agree that Bella probably warned Draco that Snape could perform both Legilimency and Occlumency and began tutoring Draco for precisely this reason. Just one question ... when did she tutor him, if he was at Hogwarts all year?

Solitaire

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Nicholas Schouten - Jun 13, 2007 3:40 pm (#292 of 322)

Zelmia, I agree 100%, hearing the books add many insights that do not come to mind when reading. Interesting observation on how our minds work!

Solitaire, I agree with you regarding Snape's Legilimency ability: "I do not remember anyone discussing his ability as a Legilimens. Didn't we just deduce his talents based on his ability to "read" Harry? Well, maybe Harry is an "easy read."

In re-reading Chapter 24 of HBP, Sectumsempra, we see that although in Harry's mind the image arises of the Advanced Potions book, what results is that Snape asks for all the schoolbooks. What this indicates, IMHO, is that although Snape can obtain the general idea of what is there, he is NOT so good as to obtain specifics (no "reading" of the mind for Snape!). (Hence, he can tell if Harry is lying, and narrow the scope of the lying, but as to detailed specifics-- no ability to that extent.) Perhaps to go much further one ends up destroying the mind, a la LV with Bertha Jorkins. Hmmm...

-Nick

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zelmia - Jun 13, 2007 4:02 pm (#293 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
True, Nick. But in the Occlumency lesson (OP), Snape saw exactly what Harry was remembering ("Who did the dog [Ripper] belong to?") so I am confused.

Draco still had another month of summer before returning to Hogwarts so Bella may have begun his instruction then. Unlike Harry, Draco would have been much more receptive to his teacher and so able to learn a great deal in a relatively short amount of time.

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Solitaire - Jun 13, 2007 8:37 pm (#294 of 322)

Excellent points, Zelmia.

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azi - Jun 14, 2007 7:18 am (#295 of 322)

Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
But in the Occlumency lesson (OP), Snape saw exactly what Harry was remembering ("Who did the dog [Ripper] belong to?") so I am confused. - zelmia

Maybe this is actually another example of Snape not being able to see details? If he could see every bit of the memory he would have known who Ripper's owner was.

Alternatively, there could be a difference between the Occlumency lessons and the Sectumspra situation. Remember that in the lessons Snape was casting an obvious spell and saying the incantation out loud, while in the bathroom he merely looked into Harry's eyes (presumedly non-verbal). It's likely that using a wand to cast the spells makes the legilimency much more powerful and therefore Snape could 'see' more in the lesson situation.

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zelmia - Jun 14, 2007 2:30 pm (#296 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
If he could see every bit of the memory he would have known who Ripper's owner was.
Hm... I'm not sure about that. The operative word here is "see". Snape could literally see what Harry was seeing in his mind's eye. That doesn't automatically give Snape the ability to understand what is happening in that particular vision.
I think the Legilimency is more like looking at someone else's home movies. You clearly see (for example) a woman in a red dress dancing barefoot on a beach there on the little tv screen in your head. But unless you personally recognise that individual, the image alone doesn't tell you anything about who she is, why she's wearing that dress and walking barefoot, etc.

With this in mind, I think in the Sectumsempra scene, Snape could see the image of the textbook in Harry's mind, but didn't recognise it specifically as a Potions book. Which is, of course, why he ordered Harry to bring ALL of his textbooks back to show Snape.

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zelmia - Jul 12, 2007 1:53 pm (#297 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I am hoping that DH will include a little more about what was going on at Spinners End with Wormtail and all. We never heard from him again after this chapter so I am quite keen to find out what he was "assisting" Snape with.

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CatBailey - Jul 19, 2007 7:10 am (#298 of 322)

I haven't seen this discussed on here - I've read about 1/2 the posts in this forum - but I didn't see a separate thread devoted to it either. I've become a convert to the theory that it was actually DD, disguised as Snape to try to glean information out of Wormtail, who actually made the Unbreakable Vow. It was a very controversial theory on the "Chamber of Secrets" boards, but I found it a very interesting, thorough theory that integrated Polyjuice / tranfiguration, legilimency, the unusually almost-charming manner in which Snape behaves, why the Felix Felicis didn't make Hermione try to stop Snape, the strange behavior of Snape's AK - should I elaborate, or is there a separate thread where this theory would be better discussed?

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Anna L. Black - Jul 19, 2007 11:52 am (#299 of 322)

There's a similar theory presented in a newly-published essay on the Lexicon. I've read it just now, and it's absolutely fascinating: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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CatBailey - Jul 19, 2007 1:50 pm (#300 of 322)

Thanks, Anna - that is a very fascinating essay. And very similar to the theory I mentioned.

At the risk of digressing too far here - I'm aware that this thread is to discuss Spinners End, but with this theory in mind, rereading that chapter is a completely new experience, so even if it doesn't work out, I love it - I'll bring up a few differences between the two, although they're very compatible.

I can't take credit for it myself - it was posted by a user named Paintball. And I don't have an exact copy of it, but I remember several things brought up to support it.

I hadn't connected the hand injury as part of the vow, although that certainly seems plausible. I've always assumed that injury to be related to retrieving Marvolo's ring. But with either polyjuice or transfiguration, the hand would presumably transform, too (Harry didn't need his glasses when he was Goyle, e.g.)

When "Snape" zaps Wormtail behind the door, a loud bang is heard. Snape invented Muffliato. And even if she didn't want to introduce it specifically, Snape could have cast it nonverbally with one of his signature lazy waves of his wand, and explained his action to the sisters. I think DD wouldn't actually hurt him - although I don't think DD feels any sympathy for him, either - but I could see him set off a loud bang to scare Wormtail.

Snape also just doesn't act the way we've ever seen him act before - and maybe it's because he's with peers, not students. But offering drinks is a very DD thing to do - he does it in the very next chapter with the Dursley's (where he's wearing black - even at night, I think dark purple would be more his style - unless he'd been masquerading as Snape), he gets the woman at Riddle's orphanage drunk to get information out of her. And the use of "forgive me" in the middle of an insult (to Bellatrix - "And - forgive me - you speak of dangers...you were facing six teenagers, were you not?" p.29) is more DD's style. "These are manners."

Later in the book - did Snape cast the AK at all? Or did he say the words, but nonverbally cast something like Wingardium Leviosa to get DD temporarily out of sight of the DE's, allowing DD to die because the vow was broken, and managing to avoid splitting his own soul (I don't think DD would have asked him to do that), but at the cost of framing himself for the murder of the most beloved wizard of modern times and the only person who has ever truly trusted him?

I'm sure I'll remember more later - I wish I'd downloaded that particular thread.

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Spinner's End Dissected (Post 301 to 322)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:18 am

zelmia - Jul 19, 2007 4:47 pm (#301 of 322)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Several things:

1) I think we have seen all the use of Polyjuice Potion we're going to. Rowling introduced that highly useful substance to us in CS only to have it play a much larger role in GF and most recently HBP, with Goyle standing guard outside the Room of Requirement.

2) Why would Dumbledore have been at Spinners End? I find it hard to believe that he would have just been waiting there on the off chance that Narcissa happened to show up asking him-as-Snape to take the Vow. It is she who asks Snape to take the Vow.

3) The scene on the Tower does not require anyone to have drunk Polyjuice Potion to have occured as it did.

4) If Dumbledore had made the Vow, it still doesn't keep Snape from being able to choose his own path. It changes nothing for Snape. Freedom to make choices being such an important underlying theme - and certainly important to Dumbledore - would be completely negated.

Snape's behavious at Spinners End is the first time we see him objectively and not through Harry's eyes. It is also the first time we see him interact with someone whom he considers an equal in Narcissa. His derisive, condescending manner is unchanged when speaking with either Wormtail or Bellatrix.

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Choices - Jul 19, 2007 5:42 pm (#302 of 322)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree with you, Zelmia. I had started to reply, but you said it for me. :-) I just don't see the point of that theory at all. What would it accomplish for Dumbledore to have taken the vow polyjuiced as Snape? I think it would be so unlike Dumbledore to do something like that.

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Mediwitch - Jul 19, 2007 5:54 pm (#303 of 322)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Besides, Dumbledore comments that a blackened hand is a small price to pay for a part of Voldemort's soul when he talking with Harry about the horcruxes. I doubt he'd say that if he really destroyed his hand as a result of taking the Unbreakable Vow while polyjuiced as Snape.

Ch. 23 Horcruxes

"You are forgetting...you have already destroyed one of them. And I have destroyed another."

"You have?" said Harry eagerly.

"Yes indeed," said Dumbledore, and he raised his blackened, burned-looking hand. "The ring, Harry. Marvolo's ring. And a terrible curse there was upon it too. Had it not been - forgive me the lack of seemly modesty - for my own prodigious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale. However, a withered hand does not seem an unreasonable exchange for a seventh of Voldemort's soul. The ring is no longer a Horcrux." (emphasis added)

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zelmia - Jul 19, 2007 9:52 pm (#304 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Thank you Choices. It occurs to me, though, that we have never been given an objective view of Snape's and Dumbledore's relationship. Every interaction Snape has with Dumbledore is either hearsay or Harry is there, but Dumbledore is in his officious mode as Headmaster speaking to a subordinate colleague.

I do hope that in DH we will get to see at least one Memory that will give us some insight into their unique bond.

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CatBailey - Jul 19, 2007 10:15 pm (#305 of 322)

Bear with me - this is a little longer than I intended, but hopefully it might clarify the theory a bit.

After looking a bit more closely at Spinners End, I noticed that Snape (or "Snape") says to Bellatrix, "Dumbledore is growing old...He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were." So I don't think the hand was damaged by the Vow - although that link is an interesting essay. I also reread that excerpt that Mediwitch mentioned, and I don't think DD would mislead Harry that blatantly (although with Harry's "saving people thing", I think DD recognizes that Harry would have tried to intervene somehow - hence the petrification on the tower - and he couldn't know about this yet.)

But I'm not sure whether - under this theory I brought up - DD would use Polyjuice or transfiguration. I think he could have done either one. Why would he have been there at all? The theory to which I referred poses the scenario that he was surprised by Narcissa and Bellatrix's arrival - he wasn't there waiting on them - he was there to try to get information from Wormtail in disguise as Snape. DD had spent that summer trying to find out as much as he could about Voldemort's whereabouts, horcruxes, etc., and Wormtail had spent approximately 2 years with Voldemort. And possibly he was keeping some of that info from Snape for Snape's protection, since Voldemort is a formidable Legilimens. I think the CIA calls that "plausible deniability." I think initially he was just trying to see how much information he could get out of the sisters - but when Narcissa asked him to take the vow, he didn't see a way to avoid doing it without blowing his cover and, by extension, putting Snape in danger. Once it was done, DD realized that there was a way, but only one way, to turn the situation to his advantage (and the Order's / Harry's advantage.)

Severus Snape would need to appear to murder him in front of witnesses - he would have achieved something not even Voldemort had been able to do, he would be his most honored Death Eater, he would be in the deepest of deep cover and the most trusted DE. It would appear to Narcissa that the vow had been kept, but DD would actually die when it was broken. Draco and Severus would still keep their souls intact - I think this would have been very important to DD - but for Snape, the cost would be that by framing himself and taking the blame, he would become hated and hunted, almost as much (if not more) than Voldemort. And all this for Harry, the son of his bully. Yes, Snape would have a choice - but according to this theory, DD was a dead man walking once the vow was made. And I think Snape would obey DD, because he would see that, strategically, it puts him on the inside for the Order, whereas if DD just died but Snape appeared to have nothing to do with it, it wouldn't gain him any leverage with Voldemort, and DD would have died in vain. I think this explains why Hagrid overheard Snape saying that DD took too much for granted and he just didn't want to do it anymore. (Forgive me, couldn't find that quote.) And I think DD knew Snape was still reluctant to do it:

"'...the boy doesn't seem able - ' 'Severus...' The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading... Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. 'Severus...please...' Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. 'Avada Kedavra!'" (595-6.)

I also would like to counter that polyjuice only played a huge role in GoF, and it still was only one part of the climax. It was used in CoS and HBP, but in smaller plotlines. And I think that's JKR's way of showing us that Polyjuice Potion is an integral part of her world, not something obscure that only a few wizards know about. Tonks "got top marks in Concealment and Disguise...without any study at all", but "Metamorphmagi are really rare...Most wizards need to use a wand or potions to change their appearance..." (OOP, 52) I would imagine that Polyjuice is probably one of the most basic methods covered in Concealment and Disguise for Auror Training. And if it was used by DD at Spinners End, that revelation would give Harry a reason to trust Snape - when Harry finally understands ALL of the circumstances surrounding DD's death. And that would lead to a much more important plotline, I imagine. We may not see this theory pan out, but I do have a feeling that we'll see polyjuice used in at least minor ways in DH.

I'll just toss this in, too - when "Snape" answers the door at Spinners End, he is not called Severus Snape by JKR - Narcissa addresses him. She used the same technique in GoF when Moody walks into the Great Hall and DD addresses him. If she were setting this up but, in the author's voice, called him by name, it would be a cheat - an outright lie to the reader. From HBP:

"A sliver of a man could be seen looking out at them, a man with long black hair parted in curtains around a sallow face and black eyes... 'Narcissa!' said the man...'What a pleasant surprise!' 'Severus,' she said in a strained whisper. 'May I speak to you? It's urgent.'" (22)

From GoF: "A man stood in the doorway, leaning upon a long staff, shrouded in a black traveling cloak...He lowered his hood, shook out a long mane of grizzled, dark gray hair, then began to walk up toward the teacher's table...The lightning had thrown the man's face into sharp relief, and it was a face unlike any Harry had ever seen. It looked as though it had been carved out of weathered wood by someone who had only the vaguest idea of what human faces were supposed to look like...But it was the man's eyes that were frightening...The stranger reached Dumbledore...The stranger sat down, shook his mane of dark gray hair out of his face...His normal eye was fixed upon the sausages, but the the blue eye was still darting restlessly around in its socket, taking in the Hall and the students. 'May I introduce our new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher?" said Dumbledore brightly into the silence. 'Professor Moody.'" (184-185)

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zelmia - Jul 20, 2007 1:03 am (#306 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I see what you're saying, Cat. But I just don't think it makes any sense. In fact, to my mind this theory bears far too much of a resemblance to the "Lupin-is-really-James" idea that was kicking around way back when.

[Dumbledore] was there to try to get information from Wormtail in disguise as Snape. DD had spent that summer trying to find out as much as he could about Voldemort's whereabouts, horcruxes, etc.,

1) Dumbledore was tracking down the Horcruxes, but I don't think there is anything to indicate that he was trying to track down Voldemort himself. In fact, until all the Horcruxes are accounted for, there isn't really any point in confronting Voldemort.

2) Wormtail is not likely to know anything about the Horcruxes. VERY few people are even aware of the concept (remember, Hermione couldn't find anything in any book about it except to mention it as "the most despicable of magic"), let alone know the particulars of that little bit of LV's "death eating". Even Dumbledore was only recently able to confirm it. ("Then you told me, two years later, that on the night that Voldemort returned to his body, he made a most illuminating and alarming statement... And I thought I knew what that meant, though the Death Eaters did not. He was referring to his Horcruxes..." - HBP23)

3) But even if Dumbledore thought Wormtail did know something about the Horcruxes, why would he need to disguise himself? Voldemort knows Snape is "working for Dumbledore" so for Dumbledore to appear there wouldn't be remotely suspicious to LV.

4) What's more, why would Wormtail be more likely to tell Snape anything he knew than to tell Dumbledore? Dumbledore must know that Snape and Wormtail have a tenuous relationship at best. He is also aware of Wormtail's propensity to tell all if it will save his own neck. In short, if DD really thought he could learn anything from Wormtail, he would not need to resort to any pedestrian stealth.

5) From what we know of Dumbledore's beliefs on the importance of free will, I could not see such a character committing to an Unbreakable Vow full stop - but particularly on someone else's behalf. Dumbledore just wouldn't put Snape in that position.

6) Dumbledore offers protection for Narcissa on the Tower. If it was really Dumbledore at Spinners End, why would he not have made the same offer he later made to Draco directly to Narcissa as soon as she explained why she was there?

For me there are just far too many inconsistencies with the character JKR has thus far constructed as Dumbledore.

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CatBailey - Jul 20, 2007 6:55 am (#307 of 322)

I can't believe the day is here!

But I digress. To answer your first four points, Zelmia, I agree that Voldemort's current whereabouts are not useful at the time for DD to go seeking a confrontation with Voldemort - although staying as aware as possible of where he is and what he might be planning next would probably be very true to DD's character.

And in retrospect, I think "interrogate" is too strong a word - an "interrogation" by DD would probably involve some kind of wine, mead, or gin, and gentle questions that don't appear to lead anywhere specific, but which provide valuable background. I doubt Wormtail knew much - if anything, actually - about the actual horcruxes (unless perhaps he helped Voldemort in the creation of Nagini as a horcrux). However, Mrs. Cole (at Riddle's orphanage) knew nothing about the magical world at all, and horcruxes weren't even a thought for Riddle then, but in their initial conversation DD learned about Riddle's birth circumstances, that his grandfather was named Marvolo and his father was also named Tom Riddle, his early propensity for cruelty, and about a certain cave. Yes, he could talk to Wormtail as himself, or ask Snape to do it - but if he is masquerading as Snape, then even though they aren't particularly close, Wormtail thinks he's in the presence of a fellow DE, and if wine were being consumed, he would probably just start talking about random things, inadvertently providing a wealth of background information for DD to sort through later in the pensieve. And it would be better for DD to be there to do it, but disguised, because DD has known Voldemort since he was 11 years old. I forget the exact ages of Voldemort and Snape, but I think JKR said in an interview a couple of years ago that Voldemort was 70, Snape 35 or 36. DD, because of his longer history, because he taught Tom Riddle, he knows his style, could make connections on the spot that Snape wouldn't be able to make, and if anything significant came up, would be more likely to recognize it and gently guide the conversation in that direction.

And the quote you referenced made DD aware that Riddle was referring to "his Horcruxes, Horcruxes in the plural, Harry, which I do not believe any other wizard has ever had." (502) He says two pages earlier, however:

"'Four years ago, I received what I considered certain proof that Voldemort had split his soul...The diary, Riddle's diary...what you described to me was a phenomenon I had never witnessed. A mere memory, starting to act and think for itself? A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book...a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it...The careless way in which Voldemort regarded this Horcrux seemed most ominous to me. It suggested he must have made - or been planning to make - more Horcruxes, so that the loss of his first would not be so detrimental. I did not wish to believe it, but nothing else seemed to make sense.'" (500-01)

DD also tells Harry, before showing him his memory of Voldemort requesting the DADA job, "And now for the very last recollection I have to show you, at least until you manage to retrieve Professor Slughorn's memory for us." (440) This implies, to me, that DD was waiting to see that memory, before turning again to additional memories he had collected to further narrow the search for the horcruxes. They just never had the chance to continue - their next meeting after seeing the unaltered Slughorn memory is the quest to obtain the locket. However, I bet DD's pensieve and a few stoppered bottles are still hanging around Hogwarts - and DD would probably have left instructions somewhere (or his portrait could alert Minerva) that there are memories Harry needs to see.

DD does believe very strongly in free will - but he also tells Harry on page 197:

"'In fact, being - forgive me - rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger.'"

This is already so lengthy I won't type out the passage, but on pgs. 35-36 "Snape" says it might be possible for him to help Draco after Narcissa breaks down sobbing. When Narcissa asks him to make the Unbreakable Vow, however, it stops him in his tracks. Bellatrix's mocking scepticism of Snape's motives prods him into it to preserve Snape's cover, but I think he was trying to find a loophole around it for much of the remainder of Book 6 - not to avoid death himself, but to avoid keeping Snape in such an impossible position. The first two parts of the Vow aren't problematic - watch over Draco and protect him from harm; as headmaster, DD would do that anyway, and as head of Slytherin, so would Snape. It's the third part of the vow that throws a wrench into the works - "And, should it prove necessary, if it seems Draco will fail...will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?" But he couldn't back out at that point. However, I think it goes much more against DD's character if he ordered Snape - whether it was actually Snape who made the Vow or not - to murder him and split his own soul.

And for your last point - I think, much in keeping with DD's belief in free will - DD has to see that Draco's heart is not in it; that although he has had DD at his mercy and wandless for several minutes, he has not acted. He couldn't offer that kind of protection to Narcissa at the time, partially because Bellatrix was there, but also because DD is clever enough to know that it would just be too abrupt and out of character for Snape - and too suspicious if Narcissa and Draco abruptly disappeared, even if Bellatrix were dealt with. As he points out to Draco, "He cannot kill you if you are already dead...Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me." (592) If Voldemort thought they might be alive, he or DE's would try to find the Malfoys.

And I really don't think this bears much resemblance at all to the "Lupin is James" theory - I think that would only hold true if DD had asked Snape to sacrifice himself so that DD could stay alive. I don't think Polyjuice was involved on the tower at all. DD is definitely dead - I just think Snape only appeared to kill him. I think DD actually died because the Vow was broken. He wasn't able to persuade Draco quickly enough to come over to the good side - once the DE's were on the scene, and it was pointed out by Amycus that Draco seems unable to do the deed, the Vow was going to be fulfilled somehow. If Snape appeared to do the deed, there would be no suspicion raised among the DE's.

I'm sorry this was so lengthy - and hope maybe it clarifies the theory a bit further. I definitely believe some kind of redemption is in store for Snape - although I doubt he'll be alive at the end. But DD always trusted Severus Snape - and maybe that was one of his huge mistakes. And in spite of Snape's nasty demeanor, I trust him, too.

Barely more than fourteen hours and counting...

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zelmia - Jul 20, 2007 11:40 am (#308 of 322)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Cat, you don't need to apologize for the length of your posts You are certainly most welcome to say as much as you feel is necessary to make your points, and I hope you will continue to do so. I just don't happen to agree with this idea.

While you make a fair point that Wormtail might have had some insight into Nagini being a Horcrux, as I said, there are just too many inconsistencies. And I really have a hard time believing that the Dumbledore whom Rowling has so carefully and beautifully crafted would suddenly stoop to disguising himself, a la Barty Crouch Jr.

But the bottom line is that it simply doesn't make any difference to the overall plot. Whether Snape takes the Vow or someone masquerading as Snape does it for him, the outcome is completely unchanged. So why bother with such a convoluted backstory?
I have always subscribed to the "Occams's Razor" tenet of deconstruction (the simplest explanation is the most likely) and the "Snape-was-really-Dumbledore-when-he-took-the-Vow" scenario is far too complicated and contrived for it to be credible, in my opinion.

Fortunately, we'll know the answers soon enough, eh?

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CatBailey - Jul 20, 2007 1:54 pm (#309 of 322)

Thanks, Zelmia - I don't try to be so long-winded; it is a complicated theory.

And we will know soon - in approximately 7 1/2 hours I will be home starting a pot of coffee and getting settled on my deck to read!

But I think, if it does turn out to be true, it could possibly make a huge difference to the overall plot. It would confirm that DD's trust in Snape was not misguided, and it could lead Harry to truly trust Snape at a critical moment. Just my two knuts.

Happy reading to you all - I have to finish getting my costume together, and then I'm busy in a play tonight until almost 11:00 - thank goodness I have something to keep me occupied! See you on the other side!

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DBFwoopersong - Jul 25, 2007 9:41 am (#310 of 322)

Explorer of the Wizarding World, Philosophical Essayist, Dreamer
Hi all!

Whether or not anyone will still bother to read posts on this now "proven or disproven" theory (no spoilers from me!) I just want to say that it was I who penned the essay, "The Bendable Vow" and...well, for the sake again of not spoiling anything for anyone who has not finished reading DH (though if you haven't, why would you possibly be reading this instead! HA HA!)I came away from book 7 with more than a few still unanswered questions! JKR has more to show us!

P.S. Thanks to those who read, fought about, and/or defended my essay!

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Orion - Sep 29, 2008 7:15 am (#311 of 322)

Elf-made wine doesn't necessarily mean "house-elf-made wine", does it? I always read it as house-elf-made wine, but indeed there can well be other kinds of elves in the HP universe. How does Snape come by elf-made wine, anyway? Is it shop-bought? Was it a present from somebody?

If it is house-elf-made, then it is nothing special, because all the food which wizards eat or drink is apparently made by house-elves. You can see in DH that a muggle-born witch is bullied in the ministry and they tell her in her trial that her parents were greengrocers. So there is no wizard who actually produces something edible. So food must come from big, secret farms where lots of house-elves slave, and also from food processing places like dairies and breweries, all full of house-elves.

So the wine can't be made by house-elves. It would hardly be mentionable, not even for a half-blood out of a muggle household. Funny that those non-house elves only appear one single time. Dwarves, too, are only mentioned one single time.

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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 29, 2008 7:53 am (#312 of 322)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Several years ago I check in Fantastic Beasts and it does not actually mention other types of elves. It is largely silent on elves though it distinguishes between beasts, beings, ghosts, and has beens

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Orion - Sep 29, 2008 11:05 am (#313 of 322)

Has beens? That's cute!

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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 29, 2008 9:03 pm (#314 of 322)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
It was at the insistence of the ghosts that they be classified this way.

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Julia H. - Sep 30, 2008 4:13 am (#315 of 322)

The Weasleys apparently produce a lot of their own food. Greengrocers don't produce the food, they just sell it. Perhaps in DH they mean "Muggle greengrocers", though it is not made any clearer than the type of elves making the wine. Proud pure-blood wizards may not find it a good enough occupation anyway for a wizard but I never get what pure-bloods actually do besides working in the Ministry. As for shops, we know there are shops run by wizards and some of them sell edible things so I don't see why there couldn't be some greengrocers as well.

Where does Snape get his wine? I want to know it, too! I also wonder if he goes to Diagon Alley to do his regular shopping in the summer or maybe he goes to the local muggle supermarket sometimes and if he does, then does he still wear his black robes or does he wear muggle clothes?

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Orion - Sep 30, 2008 4:39 am (#316 of 322)

That's a good point about the greengrocers. But the Weasleys are a bit frowned upon by the wizarding world, because, being purebloods, they are so poor that they must have a garden, as opposed to the Malfoys who seem to have their grounds for decorative purposes only. Or maybe they own lots of farmland. But who works on it? With what kind of machines?

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Solitaire - Sep 30, 2008 7:09 am (#317 of 322)

If it is house-elf-made, then it is nothing special, because all the food which wizards eat or drink is apparently made by house-elves.

Preparing and serving something is certainly different from creating it. The food at Hogwarts is certainly prepared and served by the House-elves. I would imagine that other Wizards who have House-elves probably also use them to prepare and serve their food, as well. But many Wizards--the Weasleys, for example--do not have House-elves and prepare their own food. Perhaps Elf-made wine comes from a vineyard somewhere whose grapes are grown and tended by House-elves and then made into wine by them. It is possible that it is a rare kind of wine made on, perhaps, the only Wizarding vineyard.

Solitaire

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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 30, 2008 7:24 am (#318 of 322)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Well, as far as where food comes from we have indications that Hagrid grows so of the foods served at the school. I cannot recall in which of the books, I am pretty sure that GOF is one, but I do remember references to foods grown my Hagrid.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 30, 2008 4:26 pm (#319 of 322)

Snape* speaks of pigs for the slaughter, so I am assuming that there are wizard butchers ... I can't imagine a house-elf taking on a full-grown pig.

*desperately trying to get this most interesting discussion on topic.

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Solitaire - Sep 30, 2008 6:57 pm (#320 of 322)

Pesky, I think we were on the subject of Elf-made wine ... which did make an appearance at Spinners End. Was it made by House-elves or some other kind of elves? I believe that was the issue that was being debated ...

Solitaire

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PeskyPixie - Sep 30, 2008 8:49 pm (#321 of 322)

Well, Snape says, "The elf-made wine will do". This seems to indicate that it is nothing special, and considering how wizards tend to view House-elfs I assume that the wine in question was indeed created by House-elfs.

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Solitaire - Oct 1, 2008 7:03 am (#322 of 322)

I tend to agree ... I can't see why they wouldn't be as likely to make wine as other things.

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