The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness?

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness?

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:24 am

The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness?

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

Devika - Jan 28, 2004 11:18 am
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 4, 2007 6:18 am
Well... we know that the Longbottoms are where they are because they were tortured with the Cruciatus curse. Does it not seem unusual to anyone that in the wizard world where there are usually simple magical solutions for physical or mental problems, they have remained just like that for some 15 years now? Is it possible that their health has actually progressed far more than we or anyone else knows? I'm not saying that they are faking their illness, but maybe they are much better now and are actually under Dumbledore's orders. We don't get any other references to them, and if they are working undercover for Dumbledore then, they would have their perfect alibi, if you will in St.Mungo's. They could even be spies in the hospital. Maybe the gum-wrapper incident was not neccessarily a hidden message, but a deliberate attempt to appear more senile to Harry and his friends who were strangers. Any ideas?



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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:29 am

S.E. Jones - Jan 28, 2004 11:16 am (#1 of 522)
Let it snow!
Could it be possible that the whole gum wrappers thing was to show Neville's reaction to them, how he holds them in a sort of reverence? Could that come into play somehow later on in this sub-plot?

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Sly Girl - Jan 28, 2004 11:35 am (#2 of 522)

Ah yes, the Longbottom question. Here we have parents who have thrice defied the Dark Lord, just like the Potters. The Longbottoms got away with their lives, however, but not their 'mental capacities'. Do they have a further part to play? My gut reaction is yes, because I think Neville has a part to play. But what that will be...

I'd like to think they're sort of better than they used to be. Meaning, they're not quite as loony as we think. I think Neville's mother especially, will be important. Sort of going with a Lily/Alice thing with that, I can't say why. Maybe because it was she who made an effort to make contact with her son with the wrapper.

I'm not exactly sure why it would be important for them to be spies in St Mungo's though. And I also can't imagine they wouldn't want to try to communicate with Neville, other than a gum wrapper. But.. time will tell.

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Liz Mann - Jan 28, 2004 11:49 am (#3 of 522)

Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think it is possible they might be a little better than they're letting on and that the bubblegum wrappers were some kind of message to Neville. Of course, it is possible that he kept it simply out of sentimental value, but then again...

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nmnjr - Jan 28, 2004 12:00 pm (#4 of 522)

"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."
I have believe they have a part to play in the upcoming books. JKR went pretty far out of her way to introduce them if that was the only time we'll see them.

Perhaps they know who killed Bode?

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Liz Mann - Jan 28, 2004 12:35 pm (#5 of 522)

Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Bode was killed by the plant. Someone sent it, probably anonomously. Harry saw him receive it. The Longbottoms wouldn't know who it was.

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nmnjr - Jan 28, 2004 1:15 pm (#6 of 522)

"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."
I meant the person who sent the plant, i.e. the person who would be found guilty in a court of law.

Sorry if I wasn't clear!

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Mare - Jan 28, 2004 2:46 pm (#7 of 522)

Jimmy Bell "I have figured out Cornelius Fudge's dirty little secret!" 3/1/03 10:40pm

For the ones who haven't read this already. I think you will all find this a very interesting theory. It is a great read and gave us a new boost when we were here during the long wait for OoP debating the same things over and over again.

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scully jones - Jan 28, 2004 5:51 pm (#8 of 522)

yeah right
Gilderoy Lockhart was an expert at memory charms... What if he is the one who is acting... Maybe he's fully regained his memory, but is staying in St. Mungo's so he can frequently prevent Neville's parents from regaining their memories? he WAS in the same room after all.

I can't help but think they would have gotten better already if they weren't in St. Mungo's... They do get a lot of charity from Mr. Malfoy, after all...

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Choices - Jan 28, 2004 7:08 pm (#9 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Who prevented the Longbottoms from regaining their memory before Gilderoy got there? I really don't think that's why he's there.

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Madame Librarian - Jan 28, 2004 9:56 pm (#10 of 522)

We had an old thread on the Longbottoms that has apparently gone to the Happy Hunting Grounds wherein we hashed and re-hashed a bunch of ways the Longbottoms could be held as mental patient/prisoners at St. Mungo's and the ramifications of doing so.

That chewing gum--someone keeps giving them gum which is treated/poisoned with a potion to make them sick.

A staff person at the hospital--really a DE who prevents them from getting better.

The gum wrappers--Alice resists the spell/poisons and is able just slightly to have moments of lucidity where she tries to embed a secret message to Neville on the wrapper. Since he seems to treasure them (and I'll point out that JKR makes quite a touching point that event though Gran throws one out, Neville retrieves in from the trash bin to add to his collection), there may be a time when their meaning will be revealed (for instance, they might be exposed to some potion-gone-bad, and voila! the message appears).

Lockhart--As someone suggested, he's part of the plot. I don't buy into this one because I think he's much too vain to hide himself away in St. Mungo's solely for the purpose of keeping two people insane. Now, it's possible that someone like Lucius might have given him no choice in the matter as a blackmail deal. But I do think Lockhart will have a small reappearance as a factor in their recovery. As he improves he'll befriend them, or at least Alice, and together they put bits and pieces of their lives back together. The staff thinks it's sweet: "Oh, the dears, they spend hours talking gibberish to each other...."

Gran Longbottom--Most of us agree that she's stern and intimidating, but all in all a good sort. But, there is always the possibility that for some complex reason, she prefers to have her son and daughter-in-law kept totally out of the picture. There was even a post a long time ago on the old thread or on the Gran thread on how she was Slytherin-ish in may ways. Can't pull together all the details in my head, but one point was how she dressed in Slytherin colors all the time. Anybody else recall this?

Why keep them insane at all?--That's really the big question to me. If Alice and Frank are being kept artificially insane by whatever means, why? Did they see or hear something? Why weren't they just killed outright after being tortured? Why are they being kept alive now (assuming that whoever is keeping them ill, has the power to "off" them)? Do they have some crucial information that is needed by Voldemort? Does it relate to Neville and the Prophecy?

OK, enough. Just trying to re-cap all the stuff mentioned on that old thread so we don't have to re-invent the wheel here now that the topic has revived.

Ciao. Barb

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popkin - Jan 29, 2004 1:48 am (#11 of 522)

mother
Edited by Jan 29, 2004 12:54 am
Another possibility, and my current favorite, is that the person keeping the Longbottoms insane is a chewer of Droobles Best Blowing Gum, and s/he leaves the wrappers where Alice finds them. This led to the question, is there anyone in the books that we've seen chewing gum?

Other theories I've read who knows where (some I helped to develop):

Alice wants Neville to contact Drooble.

Alice, knowing his penchant for sweets, wants Neville to contact Dumbledore.

Drooble is behind the plot.

The gum wrappers can be put together jigsaw puzzle style to form a message.

Secret messages are imbedded in each wrapper.

The mimbulous mimbletonia will be key to reading the wrappers.

The wrappers can be read in a mirror. (This came out of a discussion about several striking similarities between St. Mungos and Lewis Carrol's Looking Glass World, where Alice Pleasance Liddel has stepped through the looking glass, meets many insane and forgetful people, and achieves the status of royalty at the end of her journey. If we find out that Alice Longbottom's middle initial is P, I'll be looking into that theory again.)

Droobles Best Blowing Gum anagrams to say Gold Bribe Below St. Mungo's. This implies that Lucius is behind the Longbottoms' illness.

I also remember that someone figured out that Neville was likely between three and six years old when his parents were tortured. He probably remembers quite a bit about it (unless, as some have suggested, he is suffering from a powerful memory charm). Maybe his mother is using the wrappers to remind him about something he already knows.

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Tomoé - Jan 29, 2004 11:01 am (#12 of 522)

Back in business
Other clues for Gran Longbottom to be a Slytherin and even a Death Eater is the stuffed volture on her hat, a "death eater" bird. Also, the fox is know to be as cunning as a Slytherin, and Gran is wearing one.

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Czarina - Jan 29, 2004 12:39 pm (#13 of 522)

If Gran Longbottom is behind the plot to keep her son and daughter-in-law sick, it might not be out of evil intentions. Perhaps she feels that if they are classified as "permanently insane" and "irreversibly damaged," they will be safe from Voldemort and his fellow Death Eaters. The couple are at St. Mungo's and are supposedly beyond mental repair, so they no longer have any useful information. The Death Eaters would leave them alone and see no reason to either torture them further or kill them because they are already out of the way.

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Madame Librarian - Jan 29, 2004 2:16 pm (#14 of 522)

Czarina, yes, your point is a very strong possibility. Gran Longbottom is certainly one to take on a hyper-protective role. She may not only be protecting Alice and Frank, but Neville, too.

IMO, the whole Longbottom buisness is one of the coolest unsolved aspects of the series (along with Petunia, Snape, and Harry's parents and grandparents). I l-o-o-v-e these theories, speculations, hints and clues even if they don't seem to get us anywhere.

Ciao. Barb

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Choices - Jan 29, 2004 7:09 pm (#15 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Wow, I just read the last four posts and those are some awesome theories and speculations. The Longbottoms (and their "illness") are so mysterious and I sincerely hope we will find out the answers to our many questions about them soon.

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Devika - Jan 30, 2004 2:40 am (#16 of 522)

Czarina that's an interesting idea... Somehow I imagine that if Gran Lbtm is protecting her son and daughter-in-law, she will reveal this to Neville sooner or later. It could be interesting what Neville might do with such a knowledge. He could confide in Harry, in DD, or get 'veritaserumed'... the possibilities are interesting.

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popkin - Jan 30, 2004 3:20 am (#17 of 522)

mother
Gram is an upstanding character. In OotP, when Seamus is doubting Harry's sanity, Neville speaks up and says that his Gram has quit taking the paper because it's a load of rubbish (or something like that). She's very proud of her son and daughter-in-law and their accomplishments, and she is amazed that Neville has never mentioned them to his friends. She is also dissappointed in Neville's apparent lack of magical ability. I don't think that there is any way she is responsible for keeping the Longbottoms sick. I don't think anything would make her happier than if they would make a full recovery.

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Tomoé - Jan 30, 2004 9:30 am (#18 of 522)

Back in business
I was wondering, could Harry apparence wake something up in the Longbottom ?

Maybe the Longbottom's suffers had blind their to surrounding, and now they are close to come back, but they don't recognize their 15 years old son or even Gran who have grew old out of worries, they don't trust them. Something like the alzheimer victims who don't recognize people they use to know because they don't look like what they remember of them.

Then, if they see a 17 years old Harry in robes, they could mistake him for the 20 years old James as they last see him. Maybe they will tell James about the gum wrappers, they fought the war together after all.

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Hem Hem - Jan 30, 2004 5:30 pm (#19 of 522)

Edited Feb 1, 2004 12:02 pm
Something unusual just struck me. If we go along with one of popkin's possibilties, that the culprit is a gum chewer, how would we identify the person? Have we encountered any character who chews gum? I don't remember any.

However, there's something different about Drooble's Gum and all other varieties. As described in PoA, chapter 10, "Droobles Best Blowing Gum...filled a room with bluebell-colored bubbles that refused to pop for days" (US page 197). Compare this with the description of the rooms in St. Mungo's:

"The narrow corridor beyond...was lined by more portraits of healers and lit by crystal bubbles full of candles that floated up on the ceiling, looking like giant soapsuds." (OotP, Ch 22, US p 487)

Coincidence? I'm not too sure.

What could the bubbles mean? Are they actual Droobles' bubbles (or would Harry recognize them if they were)? Who is responsible for the decorations? And does the lighting emanate anything sinister? I may be completely barking up the wrong tree, but the idea that Drooble's bubbles stick around is sticking with me...and so are the Mungo's bubbles.

All I can say is, "Hmmmmmmmm...."

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Bash - Jan 31, 2004 9:07 pm (#20 of 522)

I think that Neville's lack of any skill might well be connected with the attack on his parents. Remember how Crouch got Bertha Jorkins with a memory charm that permanently damaged her memory? Maybe he had a memory charm placed on him to ease the trauma of witnessing his parents being tortured.

Seems that Frank and Alice would have been better off as Death Eaters.

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virgoddess1313 - Jan 31, 2004 10:12 pm (#21 of 522)

Hem Hem, I think that idea is definately intriguing. I've always been of the belief that those gum wrappers mean something (although I'm not quite sure what). I'd never made that connection, but I think it certainly has a lot of merit!

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Choices - Feb 1, 2004 10:24 am (#22 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Do we know for sure that Neville witnessed his parents being tortured? I do think he may have been the victim of a memory charm, perhaps not a very good one, but good enough to damage his ability to remember things or perhaps Neville himself blocked out the horror of what happened to his parents and it affected his ability to concentrate and remember.

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Devika - Feb 1, 2004 10:50 am (#23 of 522)

Choices that's a better idea than the memory charm thing. it could even explain Neville's low confidence levels

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Bash - Feb 1, 2004 4:25 pm (#24 of 522)

But it would be too mundane an explaination for the HP universe.

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virgoddess1313 - Feb 1, 2004 4:41 pm (#25 of 522)

I still think it could be a possibility. People do repress things as a defense mechanism. And I don't think its totally mundane, I've personally, always found psychology like that facinating, but that's merely personal opinion.

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Bash - Feb 1, 2004 9:35 pm (#26 of 522)

I agree, the details were exceedingly sketchy. Rowling must surely clarify all this later on. I thought the gum wrapper scene was the saddest in all the books so far - as we have not seen anyone receive the Dementor's Kiss... I thought on first reading Goblet of Fire that it would have been more humane to simply put Frank and Alice out of their misery so to speak, if they can't even recognise Neville.

I doubt that they are sane again, and it is surely impossible that they would be competent enough to follow Dumbledore's orders again, but maybe the gum wrappers do have some significance even so.

It could easily be the case that a member of the hospital staff is bad. Smuggling in a Devil's Snare would require inside help.

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Hem Hem - Feb 1, 2004 10:43 pm (#27 of 522)

"It could easily be the case that a member of the hospital staff is bad. Smuggling in a Devil's Snare would require inside help."

Who are our possiblities?

We know that some of the portraits were a bit rude to Ron. This displayed more of an enthusiastic medical approach than evilness, to me, though.

We know that Arthur's healers allowed him to use muggle remedies, which had some negative effects. Are all of the Mungo's staff evil? The Welcome Witch seemed a bit vile, also. However, the Janus Thickley Ward healer (where the Longbottoms reside) was described as motherly. I'd rather not label her as evil.
Who was that stooped guy who wheezed, "I'm here to visit Broderick Bode!"? I know that in the past we decided he wa either Croaker or a DE, but are there any other possiblities?

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Devika - Feb 2, 2004 8:31 am (#28 of 522)

Bash, sorry to go back a couple of posts, but I don't think that's such a mundane idea. I think the core of JKR's world is emotions and sentiments and how people react to stuff. In fact to give a purely magical explanation could make it sound more mechanical. I find a mental trauma more realistic and more fitting in this world.

Hem Hem, you make some interesting questions. Even I found the portrait's behaviour a bit out-of-place. I never thought portraits would act like that towards someone they were indifferent to. About Arhur's healers, I think they would be a part of the same Arthur mindset.

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popkin - Feb 2, 2004 8:51 am (#29 of 522)

mother
Edited by Feb 2, 2004 7:52 am
Do you think it's significant that many of the hospital staff, and the dummy in the St. Mungo's store front entry, are wearing green? Fudge (lime green bowler hat) and Umbridge also wear green (when she's not in pink). Does it imply a connection to Slytherin - both the house and the man?

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Devika - Feb 2, 2004 9:17 am (#30 of 522)

I'm not sure Popkin... I always thought hospital staff normally wore green...

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Choices - Feb 2, 2004 11:07 am (#31 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
In looking up the word "MUNGO" - it means reclaimed wool of poor quality and very short staple. Wonder why JKR chose the name St. Mungo's for the wizard hospital?

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icthestrals - Feb 2, 2004 11:32 am (#32 of 522)

Join Potty HQ on this forum! Woohoo, from janitor to VP!
Going back to whether Neville witnessed his parents torture or not, I posted some information from GOF on the Neville Longbottom thread about this. I'm sorry, I can't remember the reference to the chapter now and I don't know how to do a link to that thread (I'm a lot of help!), but that information makes me believe Neville did at least hear the torture.

The passage takes place after the first task when Harry opens the golden egg in the common room and it starts screeching. Neville says that maybe the second task is that the champions have to fight the Cruciatus Curse.

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Hem Hem - Feb 2, 2004 1:08 pm (#33 of 522)

Lime green is a bit of an odd color in the Pottterverse; JKR seems to much prefer emerald green or bottle-green. I don't think this color is related to Slytherin green, although it's certainly noteworthy. It carries a sort of uneasy, acidic vibe...certainly not the sterile feel of muggle hospital staff.

Another thing that contributes to the uneasy aura of the healers is the St. Mungo's logo that their robes bear: a wand and a bone, crossed together. It reminds me of the Jolly Roger, a little.

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popkin - Feb 2, 2004 1:57 pm (#34 of 522)

mother
St. Mungo certainly does sound like a made up name, but it is not. Here are some highlights from the site [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

St Mungo, also known by the less familiar name Kentigern, was a bishop and evangelist of Strathclyde. His early teacher, Serf, may have been responsible for giving Kentigern his popular monniker of Mungo, which means 'dear one'. Legends abound about his life. Some believe he was the illegitimate son of royalty, perhaps the grandson of Urien. Ruins of a chapel near outside Culross mark the spot where his mother, Thenew, may have been cast ashore and where she gave birth to Mungo. Alternatively, some think Mungo and his mother had been set adrift in the Forth and landed safely in the Christian community at Fife. An early story about Mungo is that he restored life to Serf's pet robin, who had been maliciously killed by some young hooligans

Glasgow's coat of arms includes a fish and a ring, as well as the bird described above. The fish and ring refer to a story in which St Mungo helps a queen, Languoureth, distressed by having lost her husband's ring. Perhaps the queen had given the ring to a lover; perhaps the angry king retrieved his jewelry while the errant knight slept. The King tossed it into the river Clyde and taunted his wife to find it in three days (or, variously, to wear it at dinner that evening). Mungo comforted the distraught woman and sent a monk to fish the river. A salmon was caught and, somehow, the salmon had the ring in its mouth.

I don't know what we can derive from the history and legends of St. Mungo that we can apply to the Potterverse, other than he may have been revered as a healer (because of the robin).

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Choices - Feb 2, 2004 8:00 pm (#35 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Thank you Popkin - very enlightening. My dictionary meaning for "mungo" certainly didn't make any sense or ring any bells, but your information did.

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haymoni - Feb 5, 2004 6:30 am (#36 of 522)

Maybe the Longbottoms are there simply to show us just how evil the Death Eaters are - per Bellatrix, they must have wanted to torture their victims and, obviously, are very good at it.

I also think that the Longbottom situation shows us that not even magic can cure everything. I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but if magic can cure everything, why are there so many characters wearing glasses?

I love Neville and I want him to have his parents back, so I will cling to the hope that the Longbottoms will come back to us...somehow...someway...

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virgoddess1313 - Feb 5, 2004 9:57 am (#37 of 522)

I have to agree with you, haymoni. Poor Neville, I think he's so sweet. I'm definately clinging to the hope that there is something that can be some for the Longbottoms. It sort of seems to me that Alice had some recognition of who Neville was, so that leaves me some hope.

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Bash - Feb 5, 2004 11:00 am (#38 of 522)

I think it is inconsistent in how restorative magic is. Madam Pomfrey could mend Diggory's burn, but yes, some characters do have glasses when even muggles can sometimes cure short sight! Also, you notice that not every wizard and witch has perfectly clear skin. If Madam Pomfrey can mend burns and turn Hermione back from being a cat-creature, then surely she should be able to fix that.

I think that the Death Eaters were just reassuring us that they ARE indeed bad. It was getting to describe them as merely holding antipathy towards muggles and mudbloods which would be perfectly understandable. However, they are just as willing to torture the purebloods. They just want power for themselves, nothing more.

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vball man - Feb 5, 2004 2:51 pm (#39 of 522)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
With Neville's reaction to the Cruciatus curse in GoF, and his other references to it he probably witnessed the torture. I've assumed that his problems in school are related to either the trauma of that event, or to some kind of Confundus-Therapy meant to help him with PTSD.

I wonder why Gran doesn't have more sympathy for Neville. Maybe that's been discussed elsewhere...have to look...

Thanks, Mare, for the link to Fudge's Big Secret. Interesting theory. I love the depth of the work JR has made. THIS is why discussing it is fun! You scratch the surface and there's more there. It does seem like JR has thought through most all of this.

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Dr Filibuster - Feb 5, 2004 3:57 pm (#40 of 522)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
Nev's gran is what's known as a "stuff and nonsense" woman. By that I mean she wouldn't like to humour anyone too much or play to anyone's vanity. If she witnessed one of Trelawney's lessons she'd probably say it was all "stuff and nonsense" In CoS, if Lockhart had tried to flirt with her he'd have ended up in St Mungo's a lot sooner

Think of how Harry saw McGonagall in PS/SS. We know Minerva's just a big softy deep down now, but she's still a strong woman and doesn't want anyone to take her for a fool.

Mrs Longbottom is the opposite of smarmy Percy. toady Umbridge and unctious Karakoff (sp?)

Mrs L may be trying to toughen Neville up a bit...like being trained by a sergeant major. She will be toughest on herself. Think of some of the things that have happened to her. What if she just cried and felt sorry for herself all the time like Winky or Cho?

She is a particular type of character who is quite familiar in the UK. I've know a few elderly ladies just like her.

There's a good essay about her on the lexicon.

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Sherbie Lemon - Feb 12, 2004 8:21 pm (#41 of 522)

I have a question, not so much about the Longbottom's illness, but about their past. Were they placed under the Fidelius charm along with the Potter's? At this time, no one was sure who the prophecy meant, it could have been Neville or Harry. Harry wasn't acknowledged as the "one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" until he was "marked as his equal." I think there is some digging to be done here.

By the way, I love some of these theories. I had thought the gum wrappers were suspicious but never gave them a lot of thought. I love the idea of Gran keeping the Longbottoms ill. I always found her a little shifty.

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Devika - Feb 13, 2004 1:08 am (#42 of 522)

Sherbie Lemon, I think you've raised an interesting point. It does seem logical that in the light of the prophecy the Longbottoms would alos have been put under the Fidelius Charm. If that indeed was the case, we might just be seeing another betrayal. I'm not sure JKR would do that again - it would be too repititive. I'm not sure how Fidelius Charms work, but if the Secret Keeper dies while keeping the secret, then I guess at the time of his death, the place just materialises to normal eye. That could be one explanation. Maybe some other Order member who was their Secret Keeper died. Of course there are a lot of ifs and buts. Another idea is that if we go back to the betrayal thing, then maybe their secret keeper is that Order member whose remains could never be recovered - kind if like Pettigrew again - only his front paw.... I don't remember the name, but I don't like this idea myself.

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popkin - Feb 13, 2004 2:25 am (#43 of 522)

mother
I just noticed that Tonks will be spending time in St. Mungo's recovering from injuries sustained in the battle in the DOM. I wonder if she will also be kept sick, or if she will make some discoveries about what/who is behind the Longbottom's illness. Her metamorphmagus abilities would uniquely suit her to snooping there unnoticed.

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Madame Librarian - Feb 13, 2004 6:16 am (#44 of 522)

Devika, maybe the Longbottom's Secret Keeper (if there was one) was Lily or James. When they were killed, it became easy for the LeStranges to find Alice and Frank. Didn't the torture session happen just after Voldie's attack on the Potters? A few days later?

Ciao. Barb

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vball man - Feb 13, 2004 7:20 am (#45 of 522)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
My memory is a couple years later...have to look...

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Sherbie Lemon - Feb 13, 2004 7:42 am (#46 of 522)

I'm thinking that the Longbottom's secret-keeper was not killed, but that the Longbottom's thought it was ok to come out of the Fidelius charm after Harry was attacked. For then, Harry would have been marked as the equal and Neville would have been safe. They all (wizards) thought they were safe after Voldemort's apparant demise. The Longbottom's weren't attacked until some time later, when everyone was finally feeling safe again.

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Madame Librarian - Feb 13, 2004 10:39 am (#47 of 522)

I just checked the Lex, and it says that the Longbottoms were tortured by Bella "shortly after the fall of Voldemort," which does not imply (IMO) a few years, but rather a few weeks. The DEs were desparate to find where Voldie had disappeared to. I would like to find a confirming quote from the books, but no luck so far. Anybody?

Ciao. Barb

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prof sprout - Feb 13, 2004 12:15 pm (#48 of 522)

Edited by Feb 13, 2004 11:23 am
Doesn't it say in GOF how long ago Crouch Jr's trial was or how long he had been hidden at his fathers. Because it was just months after he was put in Azkaban that he switched with his mom and she died there. So we could back track with the numbers. Because I believe that the "justice" would be swift in the WW. Look how soon Harry's trial was. I'm trying to remember, I lent my book out to my fiancée.

I checked the Time line it doesn't say exact dates for when this happened just 1982-2.

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Bash - Feb 15, 2004 12:05 pm (#49 of 522)

Actually the Lestranges had already "talked their way out of Azkaban" after the fall of Voldemort, THEN they had gone looking for him. Crouch looked considerably older in their trial, which I am guessing was after Bagman's trial, then he had in Karkaroff's trial, which was also after the fall of Voldemort. Crouch looked gaunter, greyer and fiercer in Bagman's trial than he had during Karkaroff's trial, so I am guessing that though Bagman's trial was before his son's, it was some time after Karkaroff's.

So I would guess that the Lestranges did have the ministry onto them after the fall of Voldemort and had first of all to fob them off with the usual rubbish of bewitchment or innocence etc THEN they embarked on the project of looking for Voldemort.

I just noticed today though, that the Daily Prophet reported Bellatrix as having "permanently incapacitated" Frank and Alice. So won't the whole school know now, despite Neville not being ready to tell them? Why didn't JKR make any further mention of this? hmmmmm....

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Bash - Feb 16, 2004 4:24 pm (#50 of 522)

Popkin,

I think that Tonks is out of St Mungo's now. Remember she was among the Order members who intimidated the Dursleys into not being horrible to Harry during the summer at the very end of the story. Remember her pink hair offended Petunia! It looks like she was only in the hospital for a few days before recovering.

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 51 to 100)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:30 am

popkin - Feb 16, 2004 11:12 pm (#51 of 522)
mother
Bash, you're right. I read that, too, after I posted the bit about Tonks. She still might drop some info in the next book that she picked up in St. Mungo's during her brief stay.

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Hogs Head - Mar 14, 2004 2:15 pm (#52 of 522)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Just a nutty idea of my own, but could the snapping of Frank Longbottom's wand at the MoM battle somehow hasten his recovery? Could his wand & mind in tandem have been in some sort of blue screen of death mode, so that the snapping of the wand breaks some spell and let's his mind reboot? Okay, forget it.

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Choices - Mar 14, 2004 6:34 pm (#53 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think the snapping of his father's old wand represents the end of the old, timid Neville, and the beginning of his being a more accomplished wizard in his own right. I think he will get a new wand, one that chooses him, and we will see the new Neville blossom into a more forceful and effective wizard.

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Hogs Head - Mar 14, 2004 9:40 pm (#54 of 522)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
I think that is a given. I was just on a lark for a moment in a different direction.

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Viola Intonada - Mar 15, 2004 12:35 pm (#55 of 522)

I have enjoyed reading everyone's theories on the Longbottoms and agree with most of them. It makes me want to put in my two knuts worth!

I know I will be repeating what some have already said, but here goes:

I think that Alice and Frank are being kept incapacitated at St. Mungo's and that the bubble gum wrappers will somehow reveal this. JKR revealed to us that patients aren't safe from tampering at St. Mungo's. She has also let us know that the Malfoy's have donated generously to St. Mungo's. Now the only thing the Malfoy's are generous with is their snide quips against "mudbloods". So why would the Malfoy's be generous to St. Mungo's unless it was profiting them greatly in some way?

I think that Neville's poor memory and talent are also linked to Alice and Frank's condition. I think that Neville must have witnessed something that he shouldn't have one time when visiting his parents (Gran probably stepped out to get coffee or something and left Neville for a short time with his parents) I definitely like the "poisonous" gum theory. Maybe Neville chewed a few pieces himself, but since he doesn't chew it every day, it doesn't have the complete effect that it does on Alice and Frank.

I hope the Longbottoms recover by the 7th book!

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Choices - Mar 16, 2004 6:59 pm (#56 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think Malfoy contributes to St. Mungo's for the same reason he contributes to the MOM - it gives him certain privileges, shall we say.

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VeronikaG - Mar 17, 2004 3:00 am (#57 of 522)

I read a theory on another board, long ago, about the Malfoys having a squib daughter, a couple of years younger that Draco, who they keep hidden there for the sake of reputation. They pay the healers to either keep the kid insane, or just to make them be silent about her family background. I don't think there is such a thing as orphanages or foster care in WW, so an unwanted kid would end up at St. Mungo's, right? I know wizards sometimes "adopt" children, (Neville is brought up by Gran, Sirius wanted to take responsibility for Harry) but that's the children of friends or relatives, and they're not unwanted. What would happen to an unwanted squib? Brought anonymously to the Muggle child welfare dept. by parents or St. Mungo's staff?

Edit: Does anyone feel that maybe there should be a "Malfoy connection to St. Mungo's" thread, devoted only to this subject? Why Malfoy's paying them, that is.

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haymoni - Mar 17, 2004 6:42 am (#58 of 522)

JKR said in her chat that Draco was an only child.

I think Lucius contributed to keep up appearances.

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vball man - Mar 17, 2004 7:15 am (#59 of 522)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I think that's right. He contributes to keep up appearances - and to gain favor with MoM officials so he can pressure them to pass laws that benefit him.

Does he also do it to gain the ability to get inside StMungo's for other nefarious reasons? Who knows?

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Mellilot Flower. - Mar 17, 2004 11:30 am (#60 of 522)

Pixie led
I think the Malfoys are so power hungry that they'll use their wealth to give them authority in as many places as possible... the ministry, st mungos, hogworts. And I wouldn't be suprised if every single charity Malfoy donated to wasn't under his thumb... but the question is for those years when Voldemort was incapacitated, to whose aims was Malfoy controlling those places? If he was keeping the Longbottoms ill then it would be because they have evidence that he is directly related to Voldemort, they would have been able to put him away- otherwise he'd have seen no point in doing anything.

Also I think that Gilderoy with his aptitude for memory charms might actually help the Longbottoms get better. The nice kind witch on that ward seemed all too pleased to have Gilderoy doing anything related to his former self- why not memory charms? What harm could it do to two people who've already lost thier memory? Only he gets it wrong sort of and actually helps them?? Could be a long shot...

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haymoni - Mar 17, 2004 2:19 pm (#61 of 522)

I think the Malfoys kept up appearances because they had to disguise the fact that they had been Voldemort's followers. They, like Wormtail, were waiting to see what would happen with Voldy and couldn't risk a trip to Azkaban.

People will think "Lucius Malfoy?? Caught in the Department of Mysteries?? A Death Eater?? NO!! He gives so generously to all of our causes. There must have been a mistake!!" That, of course, would last about 2 seconds once they saw the others that were caught with him, but that was Fudge's initial reaction when Harry named him as one of those at the graveyard.

Oh, I want the Longbottoms to be cured but not every storyline is going to have a happy ending. I do like the idea of Lockhart being able to cure them. He prides himself on him Memory Charms. Maybe he obliviated someone's memory and then needed to get more info from them later on.

The Longbottoms though seem to have more than just their memories damaged. You could have amnesia and still function.

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Choices - Mar 17, 2004 6:29 pm (#62 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
"The Longbottoms though seem to have more than just their memories damaged. You could have amnesia and still function."

They definitely are stuporous - like people who are heavily drugged!! Hopefully they can be brought out of that and their memories improved or restored. I really, really hope so, for their sake and Neville's.

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Madame Librarian - Mar 17, 2004 9:08 pm (#63 of 522)

Chloe, I really like the idea of Lockhart being able to cure the Longbottoms. I had a pesky, little idea that it was the gum or the gum wrappers that would either be the source of their continued illness or the cure, but maybe what you say is more likely. So, then what's with the gum wrappers?

Well, since Alice is the one who always gives a parting "gift" of a wrapper to Neville (talk about a touching moment), what about the possibility that she's desparately trying to communicate something of vital importance with that? Sure, she's impaired, but what if she has a glimmer of function, a huge motivation to struggle against her illness just for this one crucial thing to be told. Is there secret writing on the wrappers that poor Neville will have to make visible (hey, Hermione, can you help)? A code? Does Alice have one last little shred of a spell in her to do this? Will the message she imparts contain a shocking piece of information about someone we trust, or that some events of the past didn't happen the way we think they did?

I know, so many questions; too many far-fetched theories. But still....

Ciao. Barb

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Mellilot Flower. - Mar 18, 2004 9:43 am (#64 of 522)

Pixie led
If the bubble gum wrappers mean anything, and since reading these posts I'm pretty much convinced they do... then I don't think they're going to mean anything just yet. They have the distinct feel of an early plant... like Hermione being found with a mirror or hearing that Fudge met Sirius at Azkaban- it will relate to something that is almost impossible for us to figure out but will be so obvious when Rowling reveals it.

Then again, they could just be a literary comment- Nevile as a child needs his parents, but all they offer him is empty sweet wrappers (sweets being symbolic of childhood) kinda showing that the Longottoms are empty, like the wrappers...

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Madame Librarian - Mar 18, 2004 10:00 am (#65 of 522)

...and gum is sticky, and bubble gum produces bubbles that burst.

Metaphors for a sticky situation and beliefs that turn out be be mistaken (bursting our bubbles)--really lovely use of cliches, but maybe nothing more. Sigh, you're right, we'll have to wait and see. Personally, this is one my favorite mysteries yet to be solved, and I will be sorely disappointed if it's not complicated and twisty enough.

Ciao. Barb

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Choices - Mar 18, 2004 10:47 am (#66 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
If we could just know who is giving the Longbottoms the gum. Does Neville and Gran bring it to them or is it supplied by the hospital or some other visiter? Are the Longbottoms really big gum chewers? We haven't seen anyone else chew gum that I can remember, yet the gum itself is mentioned a time or two. The gum is definitely suspicious and if we knew how the Longbottoms get it, we maybe could figure out if it is possibly drugged in some way to keep them "spaced out".

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Czarina - Mar 18, 2004 12:36 pm (#67 of 522)

How do we know that the Longbottoms are chewing the gum? Maybe it's another patient (Lockhart?) who likes the chewing gum and just gives the wrappers to Alice, who then just likes to fiddle with them. Mental patients are often captivated with one thing that "sane" people find frivolous. Gum wrappers would fit into that category. Maybe Alice folds origami or something to pass the time. She doesn't appear to have much brain capacity and the healers would think nothing of her playing with paper. Healer Stout might even gather up wrappers from elsewhere in the hospital or even bring them for Alice as a way of encouraging her to do something. In that case, the wrappers would have no direct relation to the Longbottoms' illness at all.

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haymoni - Mar 18, 2004 2:21 pm (#68 of 522)

I must be dense. I never got the impression that something was going on with the bubblegum.

I was too wrapped up in how heart-wrenching the whole exchange was between Neville and his mother. When Harry thought he saw Neville keep that bubblegum wrapper - another "most touching moment" - I was bawling like a baby.

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vball man - Mar 18, 2004 3:04 pm (#69 of 522)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Maybe some advanced herbology will be the cure. Neville could do it. That would be cool. Even if it only helped a little.

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Madame Librarian - Mar 18, 2004 5:33 pm (#70 of 522)

haymoni, don't feel bad. I imagine JKR wanted her readers to get caught up in the emotion of this touching scene, and not notice the significance of the wrappers on first (or even further) readings. She not only makes things complicated in straightforward ways, she obscures things by getting us all het up about one thing, when it's really something that's happening quietly on the side that's important. Darn, she's good!

Ciao. Barb

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Viola Intonada - Mar 18, 2004 7:39 pm (#71 of 522)

I wonder what kind of role Neville's plant is going to play. Will he find a way to use it to cure ihs parents?

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haymoni - Mar 19, 2004 6:18 am (#72 of 522)

So much time was spent on that cactus-thing that Neville had - even making the name the password to the common room. I can't help but wondering if that plant may prove helpful, stink and all.

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Rosariana - Mar 19, 2004 8:52 am (#73 of 522)

I too thought there would be significance to the Mimbulus Mimbletonia, but I thought it would appear in book five. I would love it if it cured Neville's parents, but I don't know how likely that is because wouldn't someone have discovered it by now? And didn't Dumbledore say they are incurably insane?

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haymoni - Mar 19, 2004 8:57 am (#74 of 522)

Yes - that's what I meant earlier - it isn't just a loss of memory.

These people were destroyed.

The Longbottoms may be there just to show us how vile the DEs and Voldemort are.

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Hogs Head - Mar 19, 2004 9:05 am (#75 of 522)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
A little off the subject, but in the "Treason in Book 6 and/or 7" thread, I speculated that Neville will NOT be a traitor in either Book 6 or 7. (Several have speculated to the contrary, either there or in the "Neville might betray them" thread.) However, I am instead speculating that IF Neville is tempted to betrayal, it will be because Voldemort (or maybe Bellatrix) holds out the promise (perhaps false promise) of restoring Neville's parents to health. I do think, however, that Neville will see through that temptation, resist, and that his parents will ultimately be cured due to his resistence (and maybe Dumbledore's or someone else's kind intervention). Just a theory, mind you.

Sorry if that is too out of place with the issue of "what lies behind" the Longbottom's illness, but, speculating further, perhaps Voldemort, Bellatrix or some other DE will purport that the continued illness results from some residual curse or effect of a curse to which they hold the key and that they, in turn, can lift. That would be dastardly of them, especially if it is a lie.

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Madame Librarian - Mar 19, 2004 7:43 pm (#76 of 522)

Rosariana, despite the fact that DD said they were incurably insane, I believe that they have been purposely misdiagnosed from the get go. Immediatley after the attack/torture by the LeStranges, they're rushed to St. Mungo's for emergency treatment, let's say. Heroic efforts are made to help them, but nothing works. The report goes out to the Wizarding World and the Order: poor Longbottoms--in for a long stay here. We don't know if DD ever saw them at this point or shortly after their torture, or just heard about their condition. We don't know how much he knows about the latest in Wizarding medicine. It's possible that even as far back as then, the staff and practices at St. M's were infiltrated by DE interests (Malfoy's doing perhaps) and the charade of their insanity started up right away. I would not be surprised if it's something like this.

Ciao. Barb

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Rosariana - Mar 20, 2004 2:09 pm (#77 of 522)

I hope you're right, Barb, and would love to see them cured. Their condition, and its impact on Neville, is one of the saddest situations in the series. Harry can't get his parents back, but maybe Neville can. I also hope that whoever is responsible gets what he/she deserves.

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alexa - Mar 22, 2004 2:18 am (#78 of 522)

We have always thought that Lockhart may 'cure' the Longbottoms. What if, it is the other way round? Maybe at some point, the Longbottoms had already recovered, but for some reasons, they continue to pretend that they are 'insane'? Maybe they wanted to protect something or Neville from something.

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Mellilot Flower. - Mar 22, 2004 7:33 am (#79 of 522)

Pixie led
It's a very devious way of protecting Neville- we don't know much about the characters of the Longbottoms, but it doesn't seem like something any members of the order would do (except maybe pettigrew), hiding that is, and pretending to be weaker than they are. We've seen members pretend to be stronger, pretend to be DE's, or pretend to be emotionally seperate, but they are all very proud of their strength and prowess. It seems out of place to then have two members of the order doing so and hurting their son so much in the process.... but then we don't know how many of the other members have had to suffer what the Longbottoms have, nor what may have been threatened...

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Catherine - Mar 22, 2004 8:46 am (#80 of 522)

Canon Seeker
I definitely think that Rowling is showing us the scene with the Longbottoms in St. Mungo's for more than its effect on our emotions.

Popkin points out that Droobles Best Blowing Gum has an interesting anagram. I hadn't picked up on Popkin's; mine came out to be "St. Mungo's bribed; beg owl."

I think it is possible that Alice is more "with it" than what Neville or the hospital staff believe. Rowling definitely emphasized Alice as an individual, more so than Frank in OotP. For example, Harry recognizes Alice in Moody's picture of the first Order. Harry does not comment about Frank when he visits the closed ward, but he does see what the years of insanity have done to Alice. I think all of the "symbolic" discussions of the empty wrapper work (everyone should take at least 10 points!), but I have another possibility.

The anagram of the candy's name could be Alice trying to communicate, but what if it's a coded message in another way? Doesn't Dumbledore always seem to have sweets as the password up to his office? What if Droobles was a password during Alice's time with the Order?

These possibilities could fit with what the Healer on the ward was saying about effecting some improvement with potions and rest. Perhaps Alice has improved enough to remember some link with her past. Also, I found it interesting that Lockhart almost recognized Harry. I wonder if seeing Harry, who looks SO much like James, could also have sparked something in Alice. We do know, however, that she has given a great number of wrappers to Neville in the past.

Also, I keep hoping that Harry's donation of the entire contents of his money bag into the fountain after his trial will have some positive effect later. The money goes to St. Mungo's, after all....

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MrsGump - Mar 22, 2004 3:34 pm (#81 of 522)

Catherine Allen,

Your suggestion of a coded message just reminded of something. In OotP, Sirius pops into the fire because he didn't want to resort to a code, because codes can be broken. But we haven't seen anything that's a code yet. Hmmmmm ....

I wish I was better at at them, but I'll have to take a stab at turning Droobles into something else.

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Tomoé - Mar 23, 2004 9:24 pm (#82 of 522)

Back in business
Waaaay back to post #55, Viola Intonada asked : "So why would the Malfoy's be generous to St. Mungo's unless it was profiting them greatly in some way?"

Fudge, who wasn't listening, said, 'Lucius has just given a very generous contribution to St Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries, Arthur. He's here as my guest.' (UK GoF p.93)

To get priviledge like a place in the top box of the QWC. ^_^

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Viola Intonada - Mar 23, 2004 9:30 pm (#83 of 522)

Ah Ha! Thanks Tomoe, I had forgot that!

Catherine, I like your thinking, Dumbledore does always have a type of candy as his password. I do wonder what the connection is. hummm

I just had a really wild thought! It is a little Star Trekish but, What if the Longbottoms knew that the LaStranges were coming after them and managed to store their thoughts somewhere such as a pensieve? They just have to be found and returned?

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Choices - Mar 24, 2004 10:32 am (#84 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think the Longbottom's insanity is different from just simple memory loss. I do love the idea of their memories being kept in a pensieve though. Of all the gadgets and items in the HP books, I think the pensieve is the most imaginative and intriguing.

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Hogs Head - Mar 24, 2004 9:35 pm (#85 of 522)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Now I'm wondering if the Longbottom's gum wrappers are from Dumbledore, that lover of sweets. Oh I'd rather just read Book 6. Will it be out next week . . . a year from now?

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Molly Weasly Wannabe - Mar 25, 2004 4:28 pm (#86 of 522)

I'm thinking that the gum wrappers are from a type of gum that Neville loved when he was a little boy(and only his parents' know what type of gum he loved as a child), and this is just a way for his mom to show him that she does in fact remember something from when he was younger. Maybe something as litte as a gum wrapper is allowing Neville to hold onto the hope that his parents'(at least his mom) are regaining their memory. Reason for this theory is because they name the type of gum the wrapper came from. Why couldn't she of just said "Neville's mom handed him a gum wrapper"?

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alexa - Mar 25, 2004 5:44 pm (#87 of 522)

I know many like to think that the gum wrappers are something significant, but I will just like to view it as somthing simple. It's just JKR's way of showing the love between Alice and Neville. Alice just wanting to give something to her son, and Neville valuing everything given to him by his mum, even though the things may seemed useless to others' eyes, as in the case of Neville's grandmother. I will just like to view this scene as the bond between mother and son, nothing 'complicated' for me. IMHO, Simplicity is Love.

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Hogs Head - Mar 25, 2004 5:52 pm (#88 of 522)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
I agree with Alexa on the gum wrappers. However, I sense that the St. Mungo's scene with Frank and Alice will somehow be fairly significant later on.

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Choices - Mar 25, 2004 8:01 pm (#89 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Alexa - I like your ideas! Very sweet!

Hogs Head - I tend to think you're right about that being important. I can't wait to find out the full meaning of that scene later on.

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Padfoot - Mar 26, 2004 10:14 am (#90 of 522)

Well the gum wrappers at least show us that Neville and his mom have some sort of relationship. She may not know he is her son, but she does seem to know he comes to see her often. At least that was the idea I got out of it. And he keeps the wrappers because it's basically his way of bonding with his mom. I wonder if his dad gives him anything? We don't know much about Neville's relationship with his father. Is his mom more aware of her surroundings than the dad is?

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Choices - Mar 26, 2004 10:29 am (#91 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
We certainly haven't been told much about the Longbottom's. Frank and Alice belonged to the OoP and defied Voldemort three times. They were tortured into insanity and placed in St. Mungo's. Neville used Frank's wand until it was broken during the MOM battle. We certainly see more of Alice at St. Mungo's and she seems to be the one who reaches out to Neville. Other than this little bit of information, they remain a mystery.

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Constance Vigilantia - Mar 31, 2004 2:04 am (#92 of 522)

"I think it is possible they might be a little better than they're letting on and that the bubblegum wrappers were some kind of message to Neville. Of course, it is possible that he kept it simply out of sentimental value, but then again... "

It would be monstrous to abuse Neville like that. I would imagine that JK meant them to be insane so as to motivate Neville to finally improve his skills once the DE came around.

Lockhart is faking it, on the other hand...

J.
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NYCNomad - Mar 31, 2004 8:08 am (#93 of 522)

I would disagree with Constance. I don't think the Longbottoms are really doing any better than they are letting on, but I also think that there is more to the wrappers than we know about. It's a minor little detail that JKR made cure to mention. Things like that are usually the biggest clues. It was too much of a point to think nothing of it. They didn't even need to see that ward, JKR put them there to mention that. Lockhart, well, I think he's back to his blithering old self, just as clueless as always, he just hasn't had the chance to take credit for anything new yet.

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vball man - Mar 31, 2004 11:15 am (#94 of 522)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I agree that it would be terrible to pretend to be ill when you have a child. I can't see any parents allowing another to raise their child while they pretend to be sick. And I can't see JKR writing about such people - unless they were bad guys.

The gum wrappers could be significant - or a red herring - we'll see. Neat theories, here, guys!

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Hogs Head - Mar 31, 2004 4:14 pm (#95 of 522)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Now if the gum wrappers were to have a significance and if this theory about the Longbottoms being the secret keepers for someone who has been "trapped" in his secret keep for all of these years as a result of the incapacitation of the Longbottoms (speculation about C. Dearborn, etc.), then one wonders whether Alice was trying to give Neville a written invitation (ala the one from Dumbledore, transmitted to Harry via Moody inviting him to 12 Grimmauld Place) to the secret keep to rescue whomsoever is trapped there. (I can't remember if Neville looked at it or whether he just stuffed it in his pocket.) Even if the gum wrapper were blank, perhaps she is trying to get the secret out but still doesn't have the capacity to do so.

Speculation on top of speculation, but then what are forums for? Not that I buy any of it, but it is interesting.

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Viola Intonada - Mar 31, 2004 5:58 pm (#96 of 522)

I'm still stuck on the "they hid their minds in a pensieve" theory. What if they were able to store it in a ball (like what is in the Department of Mysteries) and then hid it in a gumball jar at home. It is the only thing that Alice can associate with- Gum, so she keeps giving wrappers to Neville. At this point she doesn't even know why, she just knows that there is something important about gum.

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DJ Evans - Mar 31, 2004 9:47 pm (#97 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
I had a thought here, but before I stated my theory--I checked the earlier posts to make sure it hadn't been mentioned before. In doing so I saw where Madam Librarian (in post #10) mentioned half of what I had in mind. She stated that "the gum was treated/poisoned with a potion to make them sick". That's what I had thought when I read the scene where the gum wrappers were introduced. Just with the added thought that, as it being gum & it is usually dusted with some kind of a powder so it doesn't stick to the wrapper (or certain gum here in the US is anyway)--couldn't the powdery stuff contain some of the poison (or whatever it is that is affecting the Longbottoms) and some of the powder is usually left on the wrapper? So, since Neville has been keeping all of the wrappers that his Mom has given him all of these years, couldn't it have been affecting him too? Think about it a moment, when he first came to Hogworts, his memory wasn't very good to say the least, yet as the years has passed, he seems to be doing so much better now. I expect this to be because prior to Hogworts he would have most likely visited his parents much more often than what he does now--what with being at Hogworts most of the time. Right? And whoever is responsible in giving Alice & Frank the gum probably has bragged to them in the past about how whatever "plant" it is that is being used in the gum will keep them in their present state and there's not a thing they can do about it. So maybe, just maybe, Alice has enough wits about her to know that Neville is someone who wouldn't hurt her & Frank and might be able to help them, so she gives them to Neville. But in doing this, she has been affecting Neville too!

In saying all of that, I have to admit that the theory on "they hid their minds in a pensieve" is definitely another good way to go here. That's what I love about JKR so much, every part of the entire story/series can have so many twist and turns & really how often are any of us even close to her way of thinking? But it is sure a blast to try, isn't it?

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Tomoé - Mar 31, 2004 10:04 pm (#98 of 522)

Back in business
I like your wrapers/powder theory.

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NYCNomad - Apr 1, 2004 7:39 am (#99 of 522)

Interesting theories, all around. Perhaps I'm a sceptic, but I just think that the Longbottoms are truely suffering from over-use of the crutatous curse. Neville I'm thinking had a strong memory charm. But Voldemort says there are ways of breaking those charms. I think there's something important about that, but trying to figure out what it is would be near impossible.

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DJ Evans - Apr 1, 2004 8:50 am (#100 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Oh, I totally agree that they all had a memory charm preformed on them, but I was just trying to say that, maybe the gum/gum wrappers are a part of what is keeping them in the condition that they are in. So sorry if I didn't make myself understood there--of course it would have helped if I had included that statement in my original post, hmmm? I'm most likely way off base there on the gum wrapper theory--been known to do that!! I had arrived at that thought based on the fact that the brain is always "updating" itself when some of the cells die in it--which is normal to a point. So it would just seem possible that something extra would need to be done to keep the Longbottoms in the shape that they are. Hope that makes sense.

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 101 to 150)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:31 am

Choices - Apr 1, 2004 10:44 am (#101 of 522)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Interesting theory DJ - the gum wrapper definitely has some importance, but what? Is it just a sad reminder that Alice has nothing left of importance to give her child, or is it a clue as to what is keeping the Longbottoms incapacitated? Hopefully we will find out one day.

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NYCNomad - Apr 1, 2004 2:31 pm (#102 of 522)

I think I understand your theory, and it's a good one. Very well thought out. 2 things aren't ringing true to me on it though. First, that sounds more like a muggle thing, like drugging someone. It could be done via potions. Perhaps a dehydrated memory charm? We know they can be put into muffins/cupcakes. So why not powder? But even then, that might give some very young kid some issues against gum. And that doesn't sound like JKR to me. (Though I don't know her personally.) I just don't know about that. I guess as I don't have any real ideas I'll be more quiet until I have something substancial to say. But that's still a good theory. I'ld like to hear more of yours.

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VeronikaG - Apr 3, 2004 5:29 am (#103 of 522)

Obviously not all of Drooble's gums are poisoned, so that would mean that someone's opening the wrappers, sprinkling the poisonous dust, and magically sealing the wrappers again. It would be interesting if Harry and Neville wandered off a bit during a visit to St. Mungo's, found the lab, and there was gum there...

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DJ Evans - Apr 3, 2004 9:09 pm (#104 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
That was my original thought VeronlkaG. That someone was making the gum themselves and was just giving it to only the Longbottoms. They were determined to see that Alice/Frank stay in their condition. So, maybe whoever is giving the Longbottoms the gum, can't for several days/weeks (cause they were captured in the battle at the DoM with the Death Eaters and LV!)and the Longbottoms will start to "come" around on their own?

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Choices - Apr 4, 2004 9:53 am (#105 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
What if it is Gran who is working for the DE's and giving Frank and Alice the gum? After all, she wears the hat with the vulture on it and what is a vulture but a "death eater"? Maybe that is a hint that Gran is the culprit and is working for Voldemort. She could be under a spell (Imperius, perhaps?) and is being controlled and forced to do Voldemort's evil work.

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mike miller - Apr 4, 2004 11:09 am (#106 of 522)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
I'm new to the Forum, so forgive me if I touch on items already covered. Very interesting theory regarding the Longbottoms and Neville's Grandmother. Here are a few thoughts that line-up quite well with the Grandmother Longbottom idea: 1) Lord Voldemort's supporters do seem to be on the Pure Blood side of things. 2) The Longbottoms are pure bloods. 3) Family's do split along these lines, look at the Black's. 4) There would have to be some kind of "maintenance" to keep the Longbottom's from getting better. After, magical effects don't always seem to be permanent. Look at the effect of the Imperious Curse on both Barty's. 5) Who better to keep the Longbottoms under the effects of some kind of spell than a family member. 6)The vulture is a "death eater" (I think maybe a little too obvious)

I think there is definately more to come on the Longbottom front, whether it's just Neville or more I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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DJ Evans - Apr 4, 2004 12:53 pm (#107 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Though I don't agree with the theory/thought of Gran working for Voldemort, I can see where it could have some huge merit. Nothing to really back up my way of thinking, just a feeling here.

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mike miller - Apr 4, 2004 12:58 pm (#108 of 522)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
I'm not sure I buy into the idea either, just wanted to point out how some pieces could fit together. I'm O.K. with Neville's parents having little to nothing to do with the rest of the story. I do think it's clear that Neville has been the recipient of some powerful Memory Charms and who knows how strong a wizard he may be if his mind was allowed to completely clear.

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Hem Hem - Apr 4, 2004 1:07 pm (#109 of 522)

Gran's affiliations leave me believing that she is on the Good Side. Griselda Marchbanks (OWL administer) decided to leave the Wizengamot after disapproving of Fudge's intervention at Hogwarts-- and we learn later in OotP that Marchbanks and Gran are old friends. Also, Gran respects her deceased son and daughter-in-law as martyrs to a very worthy cause.

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DJ Evans - Apr 4, 2004 1:15 pm (#110 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Plus I don't think Neville would have turned out like he has, he would have been more Slytherin/Draco like, if Gran "was" working for LV and his minons. He's just too well adjusted (aside from his memory problem and even that is getting better) plus he believes in AND follows the good side too much to have been raised with a Voldemort follower. I guess that is my reasoning that Gran is on DD's side and not LV's.

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Czarina - Apr 4, 2004 5:03 pm (#111 of 522)

I just don't think JKR would not only deprive Neville of his parents, but also make his gran (whom he trusts and loves, despite her harshness) the one semi-responsable. While Gran might have been in Slytherin (hence the green and the vulture), she doesn't seem to be DE material. She views her son and daughter-in-law as martyrs -- think how terrible it must have been for her to lose Frank and Alice! And to be burdened with their son! She must love Neville and wants to protect him, judging from the things she sends him.

In OoP, Neville says that Gran believes Harry and Dumbledore. While she might do so because she is a DE, I would think that she would be trying to keep her cover as much as possible. She would not let such a thing slip; she seems like such a controlled woman concerned about appearances. I think she really believes in Harry because she hopes that Voldemort can be defeated and either justify what happened to her son or maybe, just MAYBE (in her mind, at least), even help to bring Frank and Alice back.

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Tomoé - Apr 4, 2004 9:51 pm (#112 of 522)

Back in business
There was no need to say Dumbledore was right to cover her DE identity, was she a DE. A lot of decent people didn't believe Dumbledore and Voldemort wouldn't be too happy to see one of his DE pretending he was back.

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DJ Evans - Apr 4, 2004 10:02 pm (#113 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Here's a different thought that I had on the Longbottom's which I had originally brought up on the "Pensieves" thread--it had to deal with Pensieves and the Longbottom's. Figured I might as well post the major idea of it here as Viola Intonada suggested I should. It might be another route to go on the Longbottom's or at the very least give everybody a good laugh for the day.

Quick Reminder: A Crutiatus Curse is where the object swells & then the body bends in on itself--causing GREAT pain!

OK, we know the Longbottom's had a Crutiatus Curse put on them, likely to try and get information out of them, then the curse had to have been lifted or they would still be in pain/etc., I'm thinking. But if they were strong enough to keep quite without giving up any vital information while it was used on them--then the one performing the curse wouldn't have been very satisfied at all!! Most likely they would try a different means, such as trying to use a Pensieve maybe--that way the Longbottom's memories could be retrieved, put into a Pensieve and then they could just then watch/look at everything the Longbottom's knew.

But that's where my theory would depend on IF a different person actually could retrieve another's thoughts and put them in a Pensieve. It's been discussed in another thread (Pensieves) and I don't think it was ever really decided if "anyone" could or couldn't retrieve someone else's thoughts, except your ownself, and put into a Pensieve. But I think the main thoughts were that if someone did try to do it on someone else--it could go wrong and take much more from that person than was healthy.

Anyway maybe, just maybe, after they were release from the C.Curse someone did tried to remove their memories to put in a Pensieve to look at what they knew and the process went wrong, very VERY wrong.

I hope I wasn't so wordy here that it doesn't make sense! I'm pretty sure the theory will be shot down--BUT maybe it will at least have brought a smile to some of you!!!

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Catherine - Apr 5, 2004 4:32 am (#114 of 522)

Canon Seeker
DJ Evans,

I went and reviewed my understanding of the cruciatus curse, and I did not get the same definition as you did, quite.

The body does not swell due to the curse. Moody, when demonstrating on the spider, did the engorgement charm to make the spider big enough to see the effects of the curse.

Cheers.

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DJ Evans - Apr 5, 2004 8:20 am (#115 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Thanks Catherine Allen on clearing that part up. I just had remembered it swelling up--didn't take in consideration that it was a spider. That makes sense now---Dur!!!

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vball man - Apr 5, 2004 9:31 am (#116 of 522)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I think that FakeMoody put "engorgio" on the spider so that the students could see it from their seats. Then he did the "crucio."

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NYCNomad - Apr 5, 2004 11:05 am (#117 of 522)

DJ Evans, That's an interesting theory. I wonder how common the pensives are though. Or how willing Dumbledore would be to let someone borrow it. It is a sound theory, but I'm having trouble with it. After all, the Longbottoms were not tortured for information. They were tortured for pleasure.

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vball man - Apr 5, 2004 2:05 pm (#118 of 522)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I think that they were tortured for info. I'll look.

Obviously Beletrix enjoyed it, though.

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Viola Intonada - Apr 5, 2004 5:37 pm (#119 of 522)

The DE's were trying to get the Longbottoms to tell them where Voldemort was at the time.

If someone else can extract memories from your mind, then that gives a whole new meaning to the term "brain wash", doesn't it?

DJ, I really like your theory.

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DJ Evans - Apr 5, 2004 5:40 pm (#120 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
NYCNomad, you got me to wondering if maybe I was wrong on the Longbottom's being tortured, so I did a little bit of research. In GoF (US, paperback) on page 595, when Harry looked into DD's Pensieve and saw some of the hearings on those sent to Azkaban, Harry saw the one involving Crouch, Jr.

Crouch, Sr said, speaking to his son: "We have heard the evidence against you. The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror--Frank Longbottom--and subjecting him to the Cruciatus Curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master. He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named---" The quote goes on later to include Alice. Then on page 602, DD is speaking to Harry and relates the same information about the Longbottom's.

So the Longbottom's were tortured for information. For some reason, I had thought that they had a Memory Charm done on them too--I have no idea where I got that from. But I believe it was just a Cruciatus Curse now.

I can only remember one Pensieve--the one that belong to DD. That is unless Snape has one of his own, but he might have borrowed the one he used in Harry's Occcclumency lessons. Either way, it doesn't sound like there are that many of them about. And if that is true, then I bet you can pretty well be safe in saying that "someone" on the dark side has one, don't you think?

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NYCNomad - Apr 7, 2004 7:56 am (#121 of 522)

Regarding the reason for their torture, I think that was the official reason. If they knew where he was wouldn't they go after him? or tell the authorities? or something? (unless there's something about them we don't know about) And if they knew where he was, wouldn't his followers know? He could to the dark mark thing and call them, or if he was unable to do that he would do something to make contact with them, he wouldn't just float aimlessly while he had loyal followers. Would he? The Pensive: I think I read that Dumbledore lent his to Snape. I wouldn't be suprised if he wanted to make sure that the spy stuff stayed secret, especially if LV had access to harrys mind, even on the smallest level. But does LV have a pensive? Good question. I would say that he could, but I don't think he would. He is a good enough student to have done well in school and do all that he has done, butI don't peg him for the introspective type who would use a pensive.

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mike miller - Apr 7, 2004 10:11 am (#122 of 522)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
NYCNomad - I agree with you on LV having a Pensive is certainly possible, but somewhat out of character (self centered not introspective). If, as was mentioned earlier, Snape was using the Pensive to protect information some someone using Legimens (not sure I got the spelling right) I don't think LV would even think of the need. He would not expect the need to protect himself from a weapon he uses so well, and often. Possible weakness?

I came into this thread when the conversation was related to theories around someone working to keep the Longbottom's in their current state. That idea interested me because I had never thought of it. It seems to me that if an individual survives the curse place on them they seem to get better over time, i.e., Prof. McGonagall and Lockhart.

Is it common for the effects a curse to last this long without significant improvement? We know that LV has that capability, remember Berth Jorkins, but LV's not your average wizard or even average DE.

What would be the benefit of keeping the Longbottoms incapacitated? Who would benefit?

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NYCNomad - Apr 7, 2004 12:19 pm (#123 of 522)

There is the possibility that there is something the Longbottoms know. What it could be, I haven't the slightest idea though. I guess that's part of the charm of the series, right?

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mike miller - Apr 7, 2004 12:52 pm (#124 of 522)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Having some knowledge or information that the Dark side does not want out is the most likely. It would have to be a BIG ONE and one that is still important to keep secret to have invested in having someone continue affecting them in some way. The only thing that comes to mind is a spy at a high level.

I guess we may find out more about the Longbottom connection now that we know it could have been either Neville or Harry who was the threat to LV. Also, we may learn more if Harry delves into his own past wanting to know more about his parents and how they died.

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Loopy Lupin - Apr 7, 2004 1:02 pm (#125 of 522)

Mmm. Spy at high level and the Longbottoms are being kept incapacitated to prevent that disclosure. I like that Mike and the person that comes to mind for me is Gran Longbottom. I had not suspected her in the least until someone pointed out that she wears a lot of green. She's always described as a formidable witch and one gets the impression that she is just "strict" on Neville. But if you look at the things she says (e. g. Neville doesn't have the talent his dad did, etc.), she's not exactly supportive.
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mike miller - Apr 7, 2004 4:06 pm (#126 of 522)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Loopy Lupin - Oddly enough that thought was my very first Forum posting. Go back to #106 in this thread. Honestly, I think Gran Longbottom may be a red herring. There are several superficial elements (#106 and a few just before) that look fishy; but, there are several more concrete pieces of eveidence that point the other way.

I don't think JKR would have Gran turn on us. I'm thinking more like someone in the Auror's office. It's often mentioned that there were many DE's that walked free (Lucius Malfoy and others). Maybe somewhere else in the MoM, Lucius did seem to spend a lot of time there and not always meeting with Fudge.

As far a Neville goes, I've always felt he has received one too many Memory Charms due to his witnessing of his parent torture. Even at a young age, tramatic event can leave permanent scars (oops - did I just type that?). There is undoubtedly more talent in Neville than has been allowed to find it's way out of him. His mind just has too many twists and turns to let his potential loose. Maybe in book 6 and 7 his memeory may clear as he gets old enough to deal with what happened to him as a young child.

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Loopy Lupin - Apr 7, 2004 4:37 pm (#127 of 522)

mike, now you mention it, I must confess to having read that before. I didn't reply or put in my two knuts, but the idea must have stuck with me. So, oops, my thought was not original, but something you planted previously.

I hope Gran doesn't turn on us either, but it would be something completely out of left field. (To most except Forumers that is).

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MTW - Apr 7, 2004 6:29 pm (#128 of 522)

Has anybody considered it is Fudge behind the Longbottoms continued illness. Fudge used a Dementor to eliminate Crouch Jr. Why ? Because he didn't want Dumbledore to question Crouch Jr about the events leading to the capture and treatment of the Longbottoms. Why did the Death Eaters believe Frank Longbottom had information about the where abouts of LV. Because Fudge gave the information to them.

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vball man - Apr 7, 2004 6:40 pm (#129 of 522)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Now that's a theory! Fudge's elimination of BCrouchJr needs to be explained. That is one way to do it.

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NYCNomad - Apr 8, 2004 6:22 am (#130 of 522)

I've long thought Fudge to be "iffy" at best as to which side he's really rooting for. There are a lot of little things that don't seem right about him. He comes close to saying LV's name a couple times in his interview at the end of OotP. There's more, but that one comes to mind first. Oh, and JKR's solid statement that there WILL be a new MoM.

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Loopy Lupin - Apr 8, 2004 6:32 am (#131 of 522)

Mmmm. Interesting. Fudge has never proven himself to be particularly brilliant throughout the series. Still, killing Barty Jr. outright was extremely rash. It could have been that when Crouch learned that Harry was claiming the return of LV and that Crouch, Jr. would corroborate much of his story, he decided he needed to act very quickly to silence Crouch, Jr. But, I'm not exactly clear on what Fudge was told and when.

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NYCNomad - Apr 8, 2004 6:56 am (#132 of 522)

Fudge doesn't seem confident enough to take actions for himself. He's proven that time and again. I feel that he might be one of LV's spies, but he doesn't know what to do himself, he only reacts, never acts.

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Loopy Lupin - Apr 8, 2004 8:18 am (#133 of 522)

Fudge being a spy is interesting. I'm not sure how that would square with Fudge seeming somewhat apologetic after LV appeared at the Dept of Mysteries and announcing LV's return afterward to the WW. Then again, with so many other witnesses, he perhaps had no choice but to make the announcement to avoid suspicion.

More importantly, Fudge being a spy would give a much, much better explanation to his stubborn and infuriating refusal to accept LV's return than simply saying Fudge just didn't want to believe it was true.

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NYCNomad - Apr 8, 2004 9:31 am (#134 of 522)

That was my train of thought. His refusal to believe gave LV plenty of time to get started. But after so many witnesses he could not deny it without looking suspicous. And the interview, a poor coverup in my opinion.

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Catherine - Apr 8, 2004 9:41 am (#135 of 522)

Canon Seeker
I agree that Fudge's actions the night of the 3rd Triwizard Task were questionable. Dumbledore seemed to look at Cornelius Fudge in a new way after Fudge tried to slough off responsiblity for the Dementor performing the kiss on Crouch, Jr.

Some of the above posts state that Crouch was killed--I would like to clarify that Fudge's Dementor did not actually kill Crouch, but sucked out his soul. He is, however, worse than dead.

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vball man - Apr 8, 2004 9:48 am (#136 of 522)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
And could be that the dementor did it without permission. Maybe it was outraged that CrouchJr managed to escape.

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Dumbly-dorr - Apr 8, 2004 10:35 am (#137 of 522)

This was a post I made on the "Fidelius Charm" thread, but it has reference to the Longbottoms, so I thought I'd post it here to see what you think in reference to why the Longbottoms went insane, and why it has lasted so long, or was so powerful, other that the obvious fact that the cruciatus curse can drive someone insane if used long enough or powerful enough.

I'm new, so please be patient with my newness. About the fidelius charm, secret keeping. In OOP Harry is given the address of 12 Grimmauld Place from Dumbledore (loopy hand writing) through Moody, but it was still from Dumbledore, the secret keeper, the only one who can reveal the secret. So why is the secret keeper the only one who can reveal the secret when, as in the case of 12 Grimmauld Place, many others obviously knew the location. In the case of where the Potter's lived, I'm pretty sure others also knew their location. I think it has to do with the magic of it in that, through the charm, the secret keeper is the only one who can tell. All others are prevented from telling because of the charm. They can't say. Remember in OOP when Dumbledore is explaining to Harry how Kreacher couldn't reveal the location of the order because Kreacher wasn't the secret keeper? In my stubborn thinking he could have defied his master (as Dobby defied the Malfoys when he warned Harry because he hadn't been directly told not warn Harry, that we know of) but Dumbledore says Kreacher couldn't reveal the location. I'm just speculating that it is because of the fidelius charm. I'm thinking it is a magic similar to that which keeps the house elves in bondage to their master. What is making them stay when they are treated so cruelly and long to leave? It must the the magic "enchantment placed upon their kind". Also, I wonder when Umbridge gave Harry the Veratiserum to force him to reveal the whereabouts of Dumbledore and Sirius, could Harry have told if he was under the spell of the fidelius charm or would he have been driven insane, like Bode was driven to lose his memory, or whatever happened to him, when he tried to take the prophecy because of the charm placed upon the prophecy that the only one who could take it was the one for whom it was given. This may also apply to the Longbottoms. Just my two knuts (I love that saying).

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Viola Intonada - Apr 8, 2004 7:22 pm (#138 of 522)

Aaawwww! After reading all of these posts it raises so many more possibilities! I just want to recap things so as to sort out my thoughts. (Please forgive me for reinterating some of the theories just presented by others)

Bertha Jorkins was reduced to nothing worth living because Voldemort was trying to get the information from her mind that had been hidden by Crouch Sr. memory charm. This is what could have happened to the Longbottoms. (instead of the memory charm it could have been a Fidelius)

If someone is trying to keep the Longbottoms from recovering because there is something that they know that someone doesn't want anyone else to know, what would it be? I propose that maybe they know how to kill Voldemort. He is immortal and can't die (but we have been shown that there are restrictions on immortality- Flamel) Maybe Fudge is tied in with this.

Neville- I wonder if he was partially effected by the Crutiatus Curse placed on his parents (remember his reaction when Moody/Crouch performed it on the spider?) Which could be a reason for his memory problems.

When is book 6 going to come out and will we get any answers?????? Or is it all a red herring?

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MTW - Apr 9, 2004 5:07 am (#139 of 522)

Rowling had Sirius state in OP, The world not divided into Good Guy and Death Eaters. Fudge (probably) isn't a closet support of LV. But it wouldn't surprise me that he did give information to Death Eaters. DE were just tools he used for his rise in power. Crouch Jr had to be silence because of his knowledge. The same for the Longbottoms. You could even argue that Fudge did believe LV was back. Fudge needed the time to eliminate the one person who he fear people would turn to when LV made his appearance, Albus Dumbledore.

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Loopy Lupin - Apr 9, 2004 8:12 am (#140 of 522)

Darn, I don't have my book with me again, but I did re-read that section again. It was after McGonnagal told Fudge what Crouch Jr. had said that Fudge felt his personal safety was at issue and summoned a dementor. I won't try to paraphrase because I will misstate something. My point is that after the re-read, I felt more that Fudge understood fairly quickly what "tales" of LV's return would mean, refused to believe it, and decided to silence Crouch as soon as possible. Surely, he couldn't seriously say he felt unsafe surrounded by wizards and Crouch incapacited.

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Choices - Apr 9, 2004 10:35 am (#141 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I wonder what happened to Barty Jr. after the dementor's "kiss". Do you suppose there is a ward at St. Mungo's for people without souls?

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prof sprout - Apr 9, 2004 10:38 am (#142 of 522)

He's probably back in Azkaban.

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Prefect Marcus - Apr 9, 2004 10:49 am (#143 of 522)

"Anyone can cook"
I doubt it, Prof Sprout. That would be a waste of a prison bed. It is more likely St. Mungo's, I think.

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dobbyiscool - Apr 9, 2004 10:51 am (#144 of 522)

Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
I'd say St. Mungo's. With out a soul, I don't think that you can eat. That involves thinking, and you are just a shell w/o your soul.

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prof sprout - Apr 9, 2004 11:09 am (#145 of 522)

Why would they waste the space in St Mungos? I can't imagine the prison too full especially now with the dementors gone. Why waste the time of the healers on someone who was kissed on an order. If poor Harry had gotten kissed during POA than I think he would be put in St Mungos. But since Crouch is/was a lowly criminal why not put him back in Azkaban. Maybe there is a separate facility for criminals who have been kissed where experiments are done on them.

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dobbyiscool - Apr 9, 2004 11:15 am (#146 of 522)

Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
Or maybe young doctors can use the souless as test subjects. "Now todays lesson is removing limbs with out killing the person. You there! Stop! You where supposed to remove a limb not his head! Great, now you killed the pour criminal. Oh well! I'll just get you another one..."

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prof sprout - Apr 9, 2004 11:21 am (#147 of 522)

That is probably how it is Dobby. I think they are at a training facility for the young Healers. They are given various ailments and have to be cured by the residents before they "pass."

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Loopy Lupin - Apr 9, 2004 12:17 pm (#148 of 522)

EWWWWW!!! Smile

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Loopy Lupin - Apr 9, 2004 1:56 pm (#149 of 522)

Wotcher tim!

Yeah, I don't think that we've got would-be healers pulling bodies apart. And as far as the soul being sucked out of you making you "worse than dead," was it ever explained whether this made you simply catatonic but still breathing and physically functioning. Or, does "worse than dead" mean you're dead but no afterlife for you, just a rollicking good time in a dementor tummy? If the latter, I would think the kissee's would just be buried, but if the former, there must be a St. Mungo's wing for them.

Edit: Um, tim was here a minute ago. Is that the acrid smell of the kipendo or thumper spell?

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timrew - Apr 9, 2004 2:13 pm (#150 of 522)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
No, Loopy, I decided to delete my own post. I thought it might be a bit 'over-political'!

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 151 to 200)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:32 am

Loopy Lupin - Apr 9, 2004 2:21 pm (#151 of 522)
I did the same thing today after I was scolded a bit. (There may still be an orphaned post in the "essence divided thread").

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Tomoé - Apr 16, 2004 11:02 pm (#152 of 522)

Back in business
This was originally posted in Neville Longbottom's thread :

The Gryffindor talking about Harry's interview :

'It's the right thing to do, Harry,' said Neville, who was sitting opposite him. He was rather pale, but went on in a low voice, 'It must have been ... though ... talking about it ... was it?'

'Yeah,' mumbled Harry, 'but people have got the right to know what's Voldemort's capable of, haven't they?'

'That's right,' said Neville, nodding, 'and his Death Eaters, too ... people should know ...' (OoP p.503)

If you take only the first line of the quote , it could sound like Neville envy Harry's courage to share the worst moment of his life, just for the sake of sharing it, but Neville second line imply that "People should know what's Voldemort's Death Eaters are capable of".

Maybe Neville saw something happened to his parents, something that caused their illness alongside with Crucios and that prevent them from getting better. Maybe the Crucios' effects are already over but the other thing effects were never treated. Like the way Mme Pomfrey didn't succeed to heal Montague or Marietta, because she don't know what exactly happened to them. Maybe no one is keeping the Longbottom from recovering, maybe they are just wrongly diagnosed.

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Verbina - Apr 24, 2004 6:53 pm (#153 of 522)

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An idea that was kicked around on another forum was concerning the exact nature of their illness. Why their memories would seem to be gone.

Now, they were tortured. Obviously and the Lestranges were prosecuted for that crime. But...how were they prosecuted? Neville was far too young to testify to something of that nature. Gran is still with us so it is unlikely she is a witness. The Longbottoms are incapacitated. So who testified?

I propose that their memories of the tortures and such were taken from their minds and placed in a pensieve for use at the trial. But never put back. If vital parts of their memories are gone, they would have difficulty functioning. So it would seem that it is possible that too many were removed. Or they were to be put back but have not been. Thus the Longbottoms continue in a land of limbo. Worse yet, if the wrong memories were placed in their minds, memories of the torture, the imjury to their minds would begin again, placing them in a vicious circle. Or if they were given memories of someone insane, it would also make their illness more difficult to heal.

But what about the gum wrappers? Well, gum wrappers are silvery and reflect light. When Harry bumps into pensieves in the books, they are described as silvery and reflective. Could it be an attempt on Alice's part to communicate this?

Also we have to remember that the memories themselves, when being placed in the pensieve or being removed from the pensieve are silvery in appearance. So it could be a hint there as well.

And who would do it? Anyone that could come under sway of Malfoy. Yes, I know he donated to St. Mungo's for appearances but there is also a power within that. To donate large amounts of money to organizations like that put the powers of those organizations in your debt. A debt they would attempt to repay in one way or another. That was how he got so far with the MOM. Do the right things, say the right words and grease the right palms and things will happen for you that wouldn't happen otherwise. Perhaps he used this influence of the money to St. Mungos to have them hire someone under his "control" or another Deatheater to work at the hospital.

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Devika - Apr 24, 2004 8:18 pm (#154 of 522)

Okay... I had raised this point earlier but no one seemed to have responded. I think there is a chance that the Longbottoms are not as ill as they appear. It seems to me that they have actually recovered much more than they appear to have. And they are working on Dumbledore's orders in St. Mungo's as spies. They might even be the ones to finally get Malfoy. A possibility is that Gran is into the secret, but it is also possible that she is the real DE who is a threat to them and they are keeping up this drama mainly for her benefit. If it is the latter, then it is possible that the nurse may actually be the one mediating between them and DD. It is possible that the Longbottoms staged the gum-wrapper incident for Harry's beenfit, maybe to give him some symbolic hidden message. Or maybe they are corresponding with DD through Neville, through these wrappers. That's why he didn't throw it away. That would explain why DD didn't want Harry to speak to Neville about his parents. Also, all that we know about their condition is through DD and Neville. Okay... I think I have done enough rambling. Please feel free to shoot your ideas.

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Choices - Apr 25, 2004 9:37 am (#155 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Do we know actually how long the Longbottoms have been at St. Mungo's?Were they tortured around the same time the Potters were killed? If so, they have been there a long time - ten years or so. That has been one heck of a long assignment if they are spying for Dumbledore. Plus they are in a locked ward and couldn't get out to do much spying except right in the limited area they are in.

I think the possibility that Gran is the culprit has merit - the vulture on her hat is suspicious to me - it screams "death eater".

I don't think the Longbottoms staged the gum wrapper episode for Harry because they didn't know that he was coming there - he just happened to come up to that ward on his way to have tea and the only reason he came in is because of Lockhart. I don't think they said, "OK, let's have our gum wrappers ready in case Harry Potter drops by."

I don't think they are corresponding with Dumbledore through the wrappers because Neville doesn't exactly see Dumbledore that often and we never see or hear of Neville passing wrappers to him. I think Dumbledore knows how painful it is for Neville to see his parents like they are, so he tells Harry to let Neville bring up the subject of his parents affliction when he is ready to talk about it - not to ask him questions about them before Neville is ready to discuss it. Kindly man that he is, he is simply trying to spare Neville's feelings.

Mainly Dumbledore and Gran tell us all we know about what happened to the Longbottoms. Neville is very reluctant to devulge much informationa bout what happened to them....and him.

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Chris. - Apr 25, 2004 12:07 pm (#156 of 522)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
The Lexicon says that Frank and Alice were captured by Death Eaters shortly after the fall of Voldemort in c.1981.

I can just imagine Dumbledore visiting Neville's parents, sitting beside their beds, offering them sherbert lemons. I don't think there is a message in the sweet wrappers, just a sort of affection between Alice and Neville, showing that she sometimes remembers who he is.

I agree with Choices. That vulture is mighty suspicous! A vulture is someone who attacks in search of booty, valuable stolen goods seized in a war. Longbottom Gran could be trying to get something out of Frank and Alice, to give to the DL.

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sewfuninme - Apr 25, 2004 4:28 pm (#157 of 522)

My take on the Longbottoms extended illness is that Lucius Malfoy is behind it, somehow using the gum to perpetuate what has happened to them. JKR repeated the scurvy grass and lovage quote two or three times for a reason. Sounds as if these ingredients could cause the type of dementia that the Longbottoms are experiencing.

The question is, without Lucius to have a hand in the matter, what happens to the Longbottoms during the next few weeks of the summer break. (For surely he won't be at Azkaban much longer than that.) Many of those that he might have used to continue the work are at Azkaban with him.

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Mare - Apr 26, 2004 2:04 am (#158 of 522)

I think there is a chance that the Longbottoms are not as ill as they appear. It seems to me that they have actually recovered much more than they appear to have. And they are working on Dumbledore's orders in St. Mungo's as spies.

Neville is writen with so much sadness that I don't see this scenario happen. If this is true than Neville doesn't know it, and no loving parent would do that to their child voluntarily. Keeping away from him for so many years.

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Madame Librarian - Apr 26, 2004 4:34 pm (#159 of 522)

Maré, I agree except for one situation. If the life of your child was at risk should you "recover," I think a parent would continue the charade despite the heartbreaking results.

Ciao. Barb

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Verbina - Apr 26, 2004 9:21 pm (#160 of 522)

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But for that many years without a slip up? There would have to be a slip up somewhere and perhaps there is one that we don't know about. But it would be extremely hard to keep up such an appearance for so long around your only child, especially if you can see the heartache in the child's eyes. Very very difficult.

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Devika - Apr 27, 2004 3:01 am (#161 of 522)

How can we be so sure that Neville is not on to the secret?? It is possible that they have started recovering only recently, and that Neville does know about it and has kept quiet for the Order's sake.

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Loopy Lupin - Apr 27, 2004 6:26 am (#162 of 522)

I think the charade would, indeed, be very difficult. But, I think we have to remember that what we are dealing with here is a fight for the survival of the Wizarding World. (Think of the sacrifices made during World War II against the Nazis and at other times during other wars.) At the same time, keeping it up for 10 years when all seemed to be ok had to have been especially difficult.

As far as slip ups, they would have known that they had to be "on" whenever Neville visited so they could see that coming. Otherwise, the St. Mungo's staff didn't even notice Devil's Snare coming through the door, so any slip ups wouldn't have been hard to cover.

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NYCNomad - Apr 27, 2004 6:31 am (#163 of 522)

I think there is a happy median between the Longbottoms being well, and still being useless. I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but I think they are partly in their right minds, but they lack the logic and full mental capacity to communicate what they are trying to. Communication and thought is there, but not in ways that are being understood. I don't think that the gum is being poisoned or anything like that, but that's just me.

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Madame Librarian - Apr 27, 2004 9:23 am (#164 of 522)

Maybe the gum is not the poisoning agent, but the communications agent. Alice is desparately trying to get a message out to Neville or someone (DD, most likely). There is something magically encoded in the wrapper. Maybe our clever girl, Hermione, will notice something odd and go off on one of her research manias to solve it.

Ciao. Barb

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Verbina - Apr 27, 2004 9:59 am (#165 of 522)

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Hmmmm I am thinking along those lines as well NYCNomad and Madame Librarian. I am still being brought back to wondering who testified against the Lestranges as to what was done to the Longbottoms. True, they gleefully admitted what they did but...to get them to trial in the first place, there would have to be a witness to give evidence. Neville would have been too young and Gran would have either been attacked or killed herself. I can't help but wonder if the Longbottoms memories were placed in a pensieve for the trial and that too many were removed, leaving them in this weird limbo.

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Tomoé - Apr 27, 2004 8:55 pm (#166 of 522)

Back in business
Dumbledore said : "Unfortunately, the Longbottoms' evidence was - given their condition - none too reliable." (UK GoF ch.30 p.524)

It doesn't sounds like they used a pensieve, or if they did the image wasn't as clear as it use to be.

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Chris. - Apr 27, 2004 9:05 pm (#167 of 522)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
It sounds like they were too distressed to tell anyone what happened. Were the DEs captured actually torturing Frank and Alice or were they caught after?

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Loopy Lupin - May 3, 2004 8:31 am (#168 of 522)

True, they gleefully admitted what they did but...to get them to trial in the first place, there would have to be a witness to give evidence.-- Verbina

Why would there need to be a witness to give evidence to get them to trial in the first place? Sirius was convicted and sent to Azkaban without even a trial. Its a minor point, but we don't really know how the WW's legal system works. Perhaps all it took to have them arrested and brought to trial was Crouch's word.

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Verbina - May 3, 2004 11:15 am (#169 of 522)

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Unless they were caught in the act of torturing the Longbottoms, I mean. If they wren't then how would the WW court system know who did it to even bring them to trial. Neville would have been too young and perhaps effected adversly by the torture to be a good one to go by. They needed someone to say "They did it." Unless someone witnessed it other than Neville, who did accuse them?

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Hagsquid - May 3, 2004 11:27 am (#170 of 522)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
It does say that the Ministry was under great pressure to catch those who were responsible [for the Longbottoms.] The way I took it, they evil doers were not "caught in the act." (GoF:30)

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Loopy Lupin - May 3, 2004 12:23 pm (#171 of 522)

Maybe priori incantatem played some role there. How else would the cruciatus "echo" manifest itself except with an image of the Longbottoms screaming in pain? Thus, even without an eye witness you'd have the Lestranges' wands showing that they, the wands, were used to torture the Longbottoms.

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Hagsquid - May 3, 2004 12:27 pm (#172 of 522)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Well... when Harry and Voldie locked up, there were no images, only screaming....

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Loopy Lupin - May 3, 2004 12:40 pm (#173 of 522)

???? Um, what about Cedric, Frank Bryce, Bertha Jorkins, and Harry's parents (in whatever order you think is appropriate)? These are the images (or echos or "ghosts") that I mean. The Harry/Voldy lock up produced the effect of the "prior spell" spell. Also recall that (Mr. Diggory?) got the Dark Mark image to come out of Harry's wand during the riot in GoF. Anyway, my thought is that a wand may show that cruciatus has been used by showing the person (in the throes of the spell's effect) upon which the spell was used.

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Hagsquid - May 3, 2004 12:47 pm (#174 of 522)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
In that case, Harry should have come out of Voldie's wand, and he didn't. Cedric, Frank, Bertha, and Harry's parents all got hit by "Avada Kadavra" with Voldie's wand.

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Catherine - May 3, 2004 12:58 pm (#175 of 522)

Canon Seeker
I'm not sure this relates to this thread, and perhaps I misread Hagsquid's post, but the Cruciatus Curse that Voldemort performed on Harry DID come out as "screams of pain."

As it relates to the Longbottom's torture, even if one is doing the Reverse Spell to see if someone performed the Cruciatus Curse, how can one tell the actual situation in which it was used? Could one claim one did the Cruciatus Curse on a non-human and get away with it? Or that someone else used one's wand and did the curse? Seems like even the Wizarding World would have interesting legal issues.

EDIT: If Hagsquid was saying that Harry didn't come out of the wand as part of the Avada Kedavra curse Voldemort attempted on him as a baby, then I would say that is because the curse failed.

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Loopy Lupin - May 3, 2004 1:00 pm (#176 of 522)

Good point Catherine. Maybe we are back to relying on the Lestranges' confessions then.

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Hagsquid - May 3, 2004 1:30 pm (#177 of 522)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
No, I was just stating that the Longbottom's shadows wouldn't have come out of a wand if a prior incantatem was used. Only their screams would be heard... and that's assuming that the witches/wizards were stupid enough to not do any other spells after crucio.

I was just pointing out that cruicio doesn't create a ghost image of the person who it was cast on, or we would have seen a ghost image of Harry, as Voldie did cast Crucio on Harry.

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Tomoé - May 3, 2004 10:43 pm (#178 of 522)

Back in business
Maybe Frank and Alice did tell their torturers' names, reliving that day endlessly, muttering the name of their tormentors.

"We don't know where he hides, I beg you Bellatrix, stop it ..."

"Crouch! Please! Go get your father, he's the head of the Magical Lawn Enforcement, he will bring back help. What do you do? ... (scream) ... No ... you cannot be with them ..."

"Hush Neville, Mom will un-petrified within minutes and Mom will go get you out of this nightmare. ... (scream) ... I'll be ok Frank, don't let them touch Neville. ..."

"No! not Alice! Rodolphus don't!"

And so on, all day long.

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NYCNomad - May 4, 2004 6:20 am (#179 of 522)

Unless I'm misreading the previous posts it seems like there is the thought that we should be hearing the Longbottoms screams from the priori incantium from the end of GoF. That wouldn't be the case as it wasn't LV's wand that performed the curse on the Longbottoms, it was the previously believed innocent witches and wizards who used their own wands to drive them insane. Right....?

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Verbina - May 4, 2004 6:58 am (#180 of 522)

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What we are discussing is how "evidence" was brought to show that the Lestranges tortured them. Neville, it seems, would have been the only witness but very young. Any other witness would likely have been killed. So unless they were caught in the act, how did the MoM know it was the Lestranges? They were in Azkaban for it and they were not caught in the act judging from the fact that it took a bit for the MoM to figure it out.

Tomoe - That is sort of along the lines I was thinking. Perhaps the Longbottoms were able to identify their attackers but it took some time to heal them enough to do it. Then the "testimony" would have damaged them further. Sort goes with the idea I have of the Longbottoms having memories removed to prevent further damage. If my theory is correct, then perhaps their memories are slowly being returned to them as they are capable of dealing with things. The resulting damage would be smaller each time and the mind would have an easier time coping with small bits of what had happened.

I know weird theory.

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NYCNomad - May 4, 2004 7:40 am (#181 of 522)

I don't think it's wierd at all, that makes plenty of sense. Very good theory.

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Tomoé - May 4, 2004 8:35 am (#182 of 522)

Back in business
The only flaw I see in your theory Verbina, is we never saw anyone removing thoughts from another person's head, we don't know if the thing is possible.

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Madame Librarian - May 4, 2004 8:55 am (#183 of 522)

Verbina said: Any other witness would likely have been killed.

Hmmm...I've always been suspicious about the explanation given as why the Longbottoms have no memory and sanity--too many Cruciati (plural!) by the LeStranges and company. What if there was another witness--someone who did not want to be identified as such and after the attack eradicated their memories? What if this mysterious someone is a wizard normally held (by the other characters and the readers) in high esteem as a person beyond reproach? Maybe that's going to be a big shocker for us in book 7.

On another tack, there might have been a hidden witness, too. All kinds of interesting plot developments could come from this.

Ciao. Barb

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Verbina - May 4, 2004 10:18 am (#184 of 522)

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I'm not sure about the curse causing it 100% either, which is why I have been looking at it from every angle.

I am not sure it is a memory charm either. My reason for this is Lockhart. He is fairly adept at memory charms otherwise he would be innundated with people tellin ghim off for claiming their exploits. Since he isn't we can judge he is actually good at them. But he is regaining some of his memories in OoP. Now if he is regaining his memory (albeit slowly) after being hit with his own charm...why haven't the Longbottoms begun to show signs of recovery.

Either the memory chamr is constantly being renewed by someone either to try to protect them from their memories or to prevent them from remembering or they were not harmed with a memory charm.

That is why I thought about the possibility of removing other people's memories. I can see how it would be a useful tool for healers working with those that are mentally damaged like the Longbottoms. With out such a tool, the memories would replay over and over in their heads, locking them in a nightmare forever. And considering the extent of the torture of the Longbottoms, such a reliving of that episode would leave them unable to function in any way. Alice is able to function slightly if only to give Neville the wrappers. But I don't think that is random. She is giving them to her son, not to anyone else. It is as if she knows Neville is someone important in her life. She just cannot place it all yet because in her mind, some of the pieces are still missing.

Like I said, an odd theory, and one of many actually.

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Hagsquid - May 4, 2004 10:32 am (#185 of 522)

This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
Edited by May 4, 2004 10:34 am
Good Golly Man!

WHAT IF SNAPE RATTED THEM OUT! :-D

We know that he turned traitor long before the fall of Voldemort, but we don't know if the DEs knew that. In fact, we know that Karkaroff didn't know that.

Also: Lockhart is in recovory for his memory charm. They don't wear off, but they can be treated. (not that that has anything to do with the longbottoms.)

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Norbert not a common welsh green - May 7, 2004 2:19 pm (#186 of 522)

When were talking about lestarges & co. being sent to Azkaban we cant forget Crouch snr. was responsible, He didnt seem to be to fused about evedince

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MrsGump - May 29, 2004 5:38 pm (#187 of 522)

I'd also add that Bellatrix seems like the type who would confess and brag about it. No need for evidence.

She did her best to try and find LV and is proud of it. She believed he would return and break her out of Azkaban, so why not make a public statement her support is with the Dark side and wait it out?

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haymoni - May 29, 2004 5:56 pm (#188 of 522)

She was seen disapparating with Voldemort in the MOM - I don't think she'll have to say much.

I really hope Neville gets to "Crucio" her.
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Diagon Nilly - May 29, 2004 7:56 pm (#189 of 522)

The idea of Neville Cucio-ing Bellatrix reminds me of a scene in "V for Vendetta" by Alan Moore. In the scene, V (a vigilante) tells Evey (his trainee) that if she were to pick a rose from his garden he would avenge the murder of her boyfriend. Her reply is to "Let it grow" because this revenge would not be constructive or change the past in any way. One of the things I like about Harry is that he's not above revenge and hoping people get their just desserts (whether at his hand or not) I'd like to think that Neville compliments Harry in their common link (as revealed at the end in OOP) in that Neville lets "let the rose grow."

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Dumbledore - May 30, 2004 7:01 am (#190 of 522)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I would never want to see Neville, the sweet and innocent Neville, use an Unforgivable curse, if only in revenge!!!! *shocked* :-)

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haymoni - May 30, 2004 10:45 am (#191 of 522)

He has already been Crucio'd himself and he's seen what happened to his parents. He's 16 years old - he should get to Crucio the witch!

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timrew - May 30, 2004 10:51 am (#192 of 522)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Right on, haymoni! Shall we start a new thread? "Everyone (including Mrs. Norris), should get the chance to Crucio Bellatrix!"

Because I for one, think that the secret behing the Longbottoms' illness, is that they were tortured into insanity by the obnoxious Bellatrix and her equally obnoxious cronies!

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Weeny Owl - May 31, 2004 12:26 pm (#193 of 522)

haymoni:

Do you mean Neville saw the results of what happened to his parents or that he actually witnessed it as it was happening?

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haymoni - Jun 1, 2004 8:00 am (#194 of 522)

I meant he saw the results (that part at St. Mungo's still makes me cry)- I'm not sure if I buy into the theory that he was actually there.

Poor kid's missed out on his parents and is reminded of it everytime he goes to visit them.

Crucio, Crucio, Crucio!!!

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 1:48 pm (#195 of 522)

Now, now, tim, that's a really outlandish theory. Next thing you know you'll be saying things like Lupins is Lupin; Ron is Ron; Dumbledore is Dumbledore; and the Giant Squid is simply a Giant Squid.

We can't have such nonsense!

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timrew - Jun 1, 2004 2:31 pm (#196 of 522)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
No. Loopy. Dorepin is Dumblelupe, The Giant Ron is a Weaslesquid, and Sirius Snape is Severus Black!

Now take me to St. Mungo's, James, and don't spare the Thestrals!

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 6:22 pm (#197 of 522)

Oh tim. I swear. No one makes me laugh full out loud like you do. I wish we were in closer time zones and could chat more. LOL.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 2, 2004 9:12 am (#198 of 522)

I agree with you on that, haymoni, and that scene at St. Mungo's was so touching and sad.

I do think (and hope) that it was something JKR did so that Neville (or someone else, but it being Neville would be wonderful) can come up with a solution and get his parents back to normal.

I don't expect happy endings in all situations, but Neville is such a sweetie, and after all he's been through, I'd love to see him and his parents happy together.

I'm not sure what I think of the theories about the bubble gum, but I do like the one about the Mimbulus Mimbletonia being important for the Longbottoms' cure.

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Padfoot - Jun 2, 2004 2:35 pm (#199 of 522)

Haymoni, I agree! Neville should be able to Crucio Bella. I doubt he will walk up to her and zap her. I see him getting revenge while defending himself against her.

Perhaps there is some connection with her and the Longbottoms' illness. For instance, once she is Crucio'd then they recover? Ok, probably not.

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PIJ - Jun 3, 2004 8:12 am (#200 of 522)

I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread so stop me if this has been suggested bust could the secrect to the Longbottoms recovery be Ron!

Stay with me on this. The events in the DoM with the Brain and the comment from, I think, Mdm Pomfrey that thoughts leave the deepest scars.

The secret to unlock this new found knowledge of Rons could be the Gum Wrappers!

Apart from this I like the Lockhart/Memory Charms theories.

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 201 to 250)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:33 am

Tomoé - Jun 3, 2004 9:37 am (#201 of 522)
Back in business
Crouch Jr, faking Moody, said: play to your strengths and that's exactly what Neville should do. Neville is too much empathic, he won't enjoy Bella's suffering long enough, he'll do a Harry. He should find a spell to make Bella share is own suffering, that will be much more efficient.

So Ron will find the secret of the Gum Wrappers through the brain scars? Stretchy, a little too out of the blue for me. Nevertheless, who was the owner of the brain according to your theory?

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PIJ - Jun 3, 2004 11:58 pm (#202 of 522)

Based on my assumption that the DoM studies older magic then the brain may well be that of Grindelwald, defeated by Dumbledore, his brain is studied to try to undersand what is evil. Hence the link to how Ron can understand what has happened to Alice and Frank and break the curse.

The only indications in the book is that Belatrix used the Crucio curse on Alice and Frank. Although they now appear to be in a poor mental state I would guess that is because they have had to draw them selves so far into themseleve (does that make sense) that they are locked inside their own heads. Grindelwald being evil could understand how to do this kind of mental torture and there fore could also know how to reverse its effects.

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Hogs Head - Jun 15, 2004 4:19 pm (#203 of 522)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
So, the gum prominently displayed on the JKR website is (someone said) supposedly because she chews gum while she writes. But I also think of it as a big hint. Is there a tie-in between the gum, Mrs. Longbottom's gum wrapper incident, the website, and the Longbottoms' situation and a solution. I'm thinking, but someone else may make the connection sooner. If so, I'll read . . .

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S.E. Jones - Jun 16, 2004 1:11 am (#204 of 522)

Let it snow!
Maybe the person we should be looking for doesn't chew gum but is or used to be a smoker like JKR? So, if we see a wizard smoking, maybe that's the person who's been keeping them nutty?....

Okay, I didn't really believe that either....

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 16, 2004 12:54 pm (#205 of 522)

I Am Almighty!
So Mundungus didn't leave to buy stolen cauldrons. He left to keep the Longbottoms insane.

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Nellie - Jun 17, 2004 4:55 am (#206 of 522)

Hello,

I am just reading this thread for the first time, so have not got through all the messages, so sorry if I am repeating anything anyone else has already said.

Hem Hem was thinking about evil staff members at St Mungos:

"Who are our possibilities? We know that some of the portraits were a bit rude to Ron. This displayed more of an enthusiastic medical approach than evilness, to me, though.

We know that Arthur's healers allowed him to use muggle remedies, which had some negative effects. Are all of the Mungo's staff evil? The Welcome Witch seemed a bit vile, also. However, the Janus Thickley Ward healer (where the Longbottoms reside) was described as motherly. I'd rather not label her as evil."

I seemed to remember that the Roman God Janus had two faces, so I looked it up and this is what it said:

"Janus kept the gate of Heaven, so he became the god of doors and gates. He was very important, because a house is only as strong as its doors. His temple in Rome had its doors thrown open in times of War, and closed in times of Peace. Janus had two faces, one looking forwards and one looking back, since a door can let you in, or let you out."

So Janus had two faces which is normally regarded as a bad sign, but he also guarded the gates of Heaven, which must be a good thing... And the part about doors being open during a time of war is interesting.... I'm not sure what this means if anything? Any ideas?

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NYCNomad - Jun 17, 2004 5:12 am (#207 of 522)

Wow Newton, that's good research. I must say I'm impressed. But why were doors open during war and closed during peace?

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Chris. - Jun 17, 2004 5:39 am (#208 of 522)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Ah, but the door thing could be to do with Janus Thickley having the keys to the door ward.

But the "two-faced" thing is interesting.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2004 11:23 am (#209 of 522)

Let it snow!
From pantheon.org:

Janus: Janus is the Roman god of gates and doors (ianua), beginnings and endings, and hence represented with a double-faced head, each looking in opposite directions. He was worshipped at the beginning of the harvest time, planting, marriage, birth, and other types of beginnings, especially the beginnings of important events in a person's life. Janus also represents the transition between primitive life and civilization, between the countryside and the city, peace and war, and the growing-up of young people.

One tradition states that he came from Thessaly and that he was welcomed by Camese in Latium, where they shared a kingdom. They married and had several children, among which the river god Tiberinus (after whom the river Tiber is named). When his wife died, Janus became the sole ruler of Latium. He sheltered Saturn when he was fleeing from Jupiter. Janus, as the first king of Latium, brought the people a time of peace and welfare; the Golden Age. He introduced money, cultivation of the fields, and the laws. After his death he was deified and became the protector of Rome. When Romulus and his associates stole the Sabine Virgins, the Sabines attacked the city. The daughter of one of the guards on the Capitolian Hill betrayed her fellow countrymen and guided the enemy into the city. They attempted to climb the hill but Janus made a hot spring erupt from the ground, and the would-be attackers fled from the city. Ever since, the gates of his temple were kept open in times of war so the god would be ready to intervene when necessary. In times of peace the gates were closed. (That is so cool!)

His most famous sanctuary was a portal on the Forum Romanum through which the Roman legionaries went to war. He also had a temple on the Forum Olitorium, and in the first century another temple was built on the Forum of Nerva. This one had four portals, called Janus Quadrifons. When Rome became a republic, only one of the royal functions survived, namely that of rex sacrorum or rex sacrificulus. His priests regularly sacrificed to him. The month of January (the eleventh Roman month) is named after him.

Janus was represented with two faces, originally one face was bearded while the other was not (probably a symbol of the sun and the moon). Later both faces were bearded. In his right hand he holds a key. The double-faced head appears on many Roman coins, and around the 2nd century BCE even with four faces.


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S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2004 11:41 am (#210 of 522)

Let it snow!
By the way, wasn't the door to the ward open when they found it, or at least unlocked, thus allowing Lockhart to get out? A sign of a time of war?....

Hm, come to think of it, just why was it unlocked?

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Chris. - Jun 17, 2004 11:46 am (#211 of 522)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
It was unlocked when Janus Thickley was bringing in the Christmas presents.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2004 11:54 am (#212 of 522)

Let it snow!
I didn't think her name was Janus Thickley... I thought it was the name of the ward....

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Chris. - Jun 17, 2004 12:02 pm (#213 of 522)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Silly me! I got mixed up.

I mean Miriam Strout, the healer in the JT ward.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2004 12:14 pm (#214 of 522)

Let it snow!
Does anyone know where the citation is for the name of the Longbottom's ward?

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Lady Nagini - Jun 17, 2004 12:22 pm (#215 of 522)

Edited by Jun 17, 2004 12:22 pm
The Healer pointed her wand at the door of the Janus Thickley ward and muttered "Alohomora." The door swung open and she led the way inside, keeping a firm grasp on Gilderoy's arm... (US OotP 510-11)

Since the Longbottoms and Lockhart are in the same ward, they're in the Janus Thickley as well. And yes, there has to be some special meaning behind the name, since it's only thrown in there once and could just as easily have been omitted.

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Chris. - Jun 17, 2004 12:23 pm (#216 of 522)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
"The Healer pointed her wand at the door of the Janus Thickey Ward..."(ch23, p 451, UK edition)

EDIT: Lady Nagini just posted the quote before me.

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Lady Nagini - Jun 17, 2004 12:27 pm (#217 of 522)

Yes, but now we have the cite in both the US and the UK editions.

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Chris. - Jun 17, 2004 12:30 pm (#218 of 522)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Good point.

The Lexicon says the Janus Thickey ward is also known as ward forty-nine, but I can't seem to find this in the 'Christmas on the Closed Ward' chapter or the article about Bode's death in chapter 25.

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Lady Nagini - Jun 17, 2004 12:37 pm (#219 of 522)

Well, we know Bode is in the same ward as Lockhart and the Longbottoms, and we also know what ward number Bode is in.

A very old, stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet had shuffles to the front of the queue now.

"I'm here to see Broderick Bode!" he wheezed.

"Ward forty-nine, but I'm afraid you're wasting your time..." (US OotP 486)

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Chris. - Jun 17, 2004 12:38 pm (#220 of 522)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Thanks for clearing that up.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2004 12:50 pm (#221 of 522)

Let it snow!
Well, we have: The door swung open... and the reference to Janus's temple doors being thrown open in times of war.... Not sure how this relates to the Longbottoms, though....

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Lady Nagini - Jun 17, 2004 12:56 pm (#222 of 522)

Well, it's apparently a reference to the start of the war (a foreshadow that we missed!). And maybe two-faced Janus? There are two sides to the Longbottoms?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2004 1:06 pm (#223 of 522)

Let it snow!
Well, Janus also represented beginings and endings so maybe this will be the start of the end of the Longbottoms, er, craziness? It began with Voldemort's fall the first time and maybe it will end with his last and final fall in VWII...?

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Sir Tornado - Jun 17, 2004 1:14 pm (#224 of 522)

Rebel without a cause.
I know that these make very, very good theories but what are the chances of JKR taking all these points into consideration?I think some one pointed this out in some other thread (I think it is Chess theory one).I really like them though especially the one in which Janus represents the beginings and endings.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2004 1:26 pm (#225 of 522)

Let it snow!
Well, considering the other ward and healer names, I think these may actually be clues and not us ripping the pages apart. There was a healer named Hippocrates who took care of Arthur (Hippocrates was historically a healer). Then there is the whole possible Sirius's death clue:
Creature-Induced Injuries
"Dangerous"
Dai Llewellyn ward:
Serious Bites

As in: Kreacher Dangerous; Die Sirius. Don't remember where that theory was from but it is kind of creepy.

And knowing JKR's penchant for names and Greek and Roman mythology, I wouldn't be surprised....

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Sir Tornado - Jun 17, 2004 1:40 pm (#226 of 522)

Rebel without a cause.
Brilliant Jones!

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dobbyiscool - Jun 17, 2004 6:12 pm (#227 of 522)

Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
Wow...I would have never caught the Kreacher Dangerous: Die Sirius thing.

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Nellie - Jun 18, 2004 3:30 am (#228 of 522)

I know what you mean bout seeing theories and clues where there are none to be found, but don't forget that JKR has a huge knowledge of the Classics and literature, somehow I think we might be selling her short if we thought these things were just coincidence.

I know it is a bit off thread, but there are so many tiny clues in these books that seem so irrelevant and later appear to be important For example in PS in Chapter 1 there is a sentence describing Mr Dursley getting ready for work and he tries to kiss " a screaming Dudley good-bye" so he doesn't notice an owl flying past the window. Presumably this owl was taking news of Voldermorts defeat to a local witch or wizard in Little Whinging. This should have alerted us to the fact that there was at least one more magical person in the local area - it turned out to be Mrs Figg, albeit she is a squib, but she does know Dumbledore.

There are other examples too I'm sure.....

I'll stop rambling now and we can get back to talking about the Longbottoms.....

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Tomoé - Jun 18, 2004 10:38 am (#229 of 522)

Back in business
Maybe it's Janus's ward because the people in there are not exactly living, but not exactly dead, they are just waiting for Janus to open the door.

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Padfoot - Jun 18, 2004 12:37 pm (#230 of 522)

That is rather creepy.

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haymoni - Jun 18, 2004 5:23 pm (#231 of 522)

I like the Janus theory - I think it may be more about having 2 personalities than being 2-faced.

Lockhart was famous and full of himself - now he doesn't know who he is or why people write him. Bode was babbling and the Longbottoms aren't themselves anymore either.

They are themselves physically but not mentally - i.e. 2 people.

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Nellie - Jun 19, 2004 8:27 am (#232 of 522)

I think you might be right about the "two personalities" concept... It would be nice to think that the door of ward will be opened such that the longbottoms could leave and be reunited with Neville....

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vball man - Jun 20, 2004 7:19 pm (#233 of 522)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Who has FB handy? Wasn't Janus Thickley the guy who faked his own death by lethifold attack?

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Chris. - Jun 20, 2004 7:25 pm (#234 of 522)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Yes, that's the same man. He wrote a note telling his wife, and I think children, that a Lethifold had devoured him, only to be found living with the landlady of the nearby pub, the Green Dragon!

The name Janus suits him, being two-faced an' all.

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haymoni - Jun 20, 2004 9:55 pm (#235 of 522)

Do we know Alice's maiden name?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 20, 2004 10:59 pm (#236 of 522)

Let it snow!
Janus was two-faced, so I'd assume that that means there is something two-faced going on in the ward. So, if there is something there that isn't what it appears to be, maybe it is the Longbottoms condition. They seem like they're crazy from the Cruciatus Curse, but maybe that old theory about them being kept crazy by something/someone else has some merit....

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Verbina - Jun 21, 2004 6:15 am (#237 of 522)

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Something two faced in the ward? Well if that plant got in and killed Bode, then I would say there is something two faced. It is not a fool proof protection for the people inside. In fact...it almost seems as if the people inside aren't being protected from the outside world at all. The outside world is being protected from them.

One would think that such a plant wouldn't even get inside the hopsital without someone noting it!

But...okay with the Janus Thickley name...that is the name of the ward right? (Sorry my copy of OotP is being read at the moment.)

So why would they name a mental ward after a man that faked his own death so he could hide out with the other woman? OHHH! You don't think that could be a clue referring to the Longbottoms...do you? I mean we did say something about the possibility of the Longbottoms faking their illness for protection. Not sure they would do that considering that Neville is hurt by it all but... Could there be someone in that ward that is faking his/her illness to be in there?

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haymoni - Jun 21, 2004 6:30 am (#238 of 522)

My guess would be Lockhart.

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Dr Filibuster - Jun 21, 2004 10:56 am (#239 of 522)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
I'm in two minds about this theory myself.

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Padfoot - Jun 21, 2004 12:59 pm (#240 of 522)

I still don't see much support for the Longbottoms faking their illness. What do they have to gain doing so? Maybe I don't like this theory (same with the James/Lupin theory) because of how it effects their son. Now if someone else is keeping them there, that is easier for me to believe.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 21, 2004 1:11 pm (#241 of 522)

Let it snow!
Well, we already have some proof of two-faced things in the ward in regards to other patients.

Lockhart is pretty two-faced himself (appeared brave and competent but was really cowardly and incompetent).

Bode's plant was two faced (appeared harmless and turned out to be Devil's Snare).

I'm still working on the dog-lady, though....

The Longbottoms: Appear crazy, but really aren't?

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Verbina - Jun 22, 2004 5:37 pm (#242 of 522)

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I'm not sure about the Longbottoms being two faced. I just don't know, as a parent myself, if I could do that. Especially what Neville is going through. But then again...when it come to children, parents will do anything for the safety of their children. Just look at Lily.

I was thinking though...Janus Thickley pretended to be dead so as to be able to get away with something. Unless the man was deemed mentally unstable afterwards, I don't really see a reason for the ward to be named for him. So...someone is pretending to be ill but is not to hide out. Could Lockhart be hiding from persecution for what he did to other witches /wizards? Or someone is pretending to be one way when they are really another. Hmmmm the last one sort of makes me think of Lucius Malfoy. Behaving one way yet actually being another. Plus he donated large sums of money to St. Mungos. I am sure there are others who could fit the bill though.

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Sir Tornado - Jun 25, 2004 1:09 pm (#243 of 522)

Rebel without a cause.
Janus is the Roman god of gates and doors (ianua), beginnings and endings, and hence represented with a double-faced head--S.E. Jones (post 209)

So, Janus had two faces right? Could JKR be pointing in some way to Quirrel?(maybe his ghost).

P.S: I know this is way off topic.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 25, 2004 10:28 pm (#244 of 522)

Let it snow!
I didn't mean the Longbottoms being two-faced, Verbina. I meant there might be something two-faced about their condition. There is something two-faced about everyone else in the ward (Lockhart, the supposedly harmless plant, etc -> see last post), so their condition may have a two-faced nature. I was referring more to the old idea, once again, of them appearing crazy because of the Cruciatus but maybe really being crazy because of something else (i.e. outside interference)....

As far as "Janus Thickly" in Fantastic Beasts is concerned, he was also two-faced in that he appeared one way (appeared to be a victim of a lethifold attack) but turned out to be something else entirely (was actually hiding with his mistress).....

So basically, I'm saying there is more here than meets the eye....

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mike miller - Jun 26, 2004 7:10 pm (#245 of 522)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
I think the two-faced analogy refers more to the idea that things are not always what they seem. I'm in agreement with Sarah that the previously discussed theory of the Longbottoms being "kept" in a less than normal mental state may turn out to be true. I don't have a suspect, and the evidence is circumstantial (Malfoy's donations to St. Mungos). Something is not right in the Janus Thickley ward. It has been discussed on the Mimulus Mimblitonia thread that perhaps Neville will use stinksap to create a cure for his parent's condition. We will have to wait for book 6 or 7 to find out.

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Surtseystwin - Jun 27, 2004 9:54 am (#246 of 522)

Maybe the solution will be powdered dragon claw. According to Ron, "It's supposed to be incredible, really gives your brain a boost, you come over all cunning for a few hours..." I'm sure Charlie Weasley could easily obtain some.

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Catherine - Jun 27, 2004 3:36 pm (#247 of 522)

Canon Seeker
Well, what I thought when I read "Janus" was about the face looking to the future, and the face looking to the past.

We definitely have time-turners, where one can do hours over again. We have Harry, who seems to be Lily and James all over again, and I think Snape, Lupin, and Sirius see James when they look at him. After PoA, you get the sense that Time does, indeed, repeat itself.! Look at the image of the hummingbird and egg in the bell jar at the Ministry of Magic in OoP--you see the cycles repeating themselves over and over...

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 11, 2004 3:14 pm (#248 of 522)

I would like to post two possibilities that came to my mind.

Gum is sometimes wrapped in aluminum which, is silver in coloration. Could the gum itself not be important but, the wrapper is what is important. What if Alice Longbottom saw Peter at Saint Mungo's and is trying to communicate that to someone. The silver gum wrapper being an allusion to his silver hand

Another possibility is that the gum wrappers are a reference to pensieves.

Perhaps, aurors were given pensieves in order to remove thoughts and information and store them. this would be wise in case they were captured and tortured. The information could not inadvertantly be revealled under duress as the information had been stored in the pensieve for safe keeping.

Best Regards, Nathan

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Chemyst - Jul 11, 2004 3:29 pm (#249 of 522)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Nathan,
I guess the Pensieve discussion under Magical Items has met it's mulcher, but 'Pensieve' is always capitalized in the books, leading us to think there is only one. And even though Snape stored his memories in it during the Occlumency lessons, DD states that the primary purpose of the Pensive is to sift through thoughts, filter out ideas and see patterns, not for storage. So I'm curious, why do you think that the gum wrapper might be a reference to the Pensieve?

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shepherdess - Jul 11, 2004 3:54 pm (#250 of 522)

55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Nathan,

How would Alice Longbottom know about the silver hand Peter just received less than a year before?

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 251 to 300)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:34 am

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 11, 2004 4:30 pm (#251 of 522)
Shepherdess, if Alice Longbottom saw Peter Pettigrew in Saint Mungo's. I believe she saw him after he received his new hand. Perhaps during a scouting mission for Voldemort to determine the level of security at Saint Mungo's prior to the murder of Broderick Bode. She could have have seen him when he was in human form thus it could be possible that she saw his silver hand.

I appologize I should have been more careful in my wording because, I did not mean for it to be taken as a certainty

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shepherdess - Jul 11, 2004 4:36 pm (#252 of 522)

55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Ah. If.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 11, 2004 4:43 pm (#253 of 522)

Chemyst, in terms of the Pensieve portiion of my previous post. We know snape userd it tp clear old memories from his mind. That being the case he possibility occured to me that the Longbottom's could have used the Pensieve to remove thoughts and memories which could have been of use to Voldemort and the Death Eaters for example, details of Trelawney's Prophecy.

Best regards, Nathan

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Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 6:40 pm (#254 of 522)

Back in business
First, even if Frank and Alice saw Wormtail, they likely didn't knew he was a animagus rat as Dumbledore himself didn't knew. They could still have seen a rat with a silvery leg, though.

Second, yes, Pensieve is always capitalized, and so are Thestrals, Blast-Ended Skrewts and Firebolts (in the UK version at least) and we know for canon there's many Thestrals, Blast-Ended Skrewts (or was until only one of them was left alive) and there are, at the very least, 8 Firebolts (Harry's + Ireland team's 7 ones). So, the capital P of Pensieve is no evidence for how many of them there is around.

Third, two years and a half ago, I was victim of a car crash. I went to the hospital as I had a brain hematoma, and was sent in the skull traumatism ward. I was the lighter case around, the guy next to me had felt from his roof and was tied in his bed because he still try to undress whenever left alone. I stayed a week and get a personal room the second day, with an entire wall made of glass (so the nurse didn't miss I was still reading Harry Potter at 2AM) and a man suddenly came in my room and give me a white envelope, he said :"This is not much but it come from the very bottom of my heart." I opened it and there was nothing inside, that was just an common white envelope.

As JKR's mother died of Multiple Sclerosis, I expect her to have witnessed scenes like that, it could even had come from her own mother. So the gum warper could be a secret clue, but it could also be a hint to how out of our world the Longbottoms are or a tribute to one of her mother last moment of lucidity.

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Chemyst - Jul 11, 2004 8:07 pm (#255 of 522)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Tomoé, I think you are absolutely right in your assessment of the gum wrapper "mystery." It is simply something small and shiny that graphically illustrates just how far gone Alice's mind really is. I don't think we can read much more into it beyond Alice has shown a need to reach out to Neville but doesn't connect enough to recognize him or to know why.

Firebolt is capitalized because it is a brand name, making it a proper noun. Thestrals and skrewts are not always capitalized in my Scholastic version. We have never been given any reason to believe that the Pensieve is a common object or evidence that a second one even exists. "Pensieve" is usually preceded by the article "the" which tends to support there being only one. While I haven't done a search, I don't recall ever seeing it referred to as "a" Pensieve which would be the article used if they were common.

"Surely not another screwt hatching?" page 342 GF pb "Hagrid lures thestrals with raw meat.." page 763 OP hb

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Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 8:53 pm (#256 of 522)

Back in business
Are trying to tell us Hagrid is still hatching Skrewts? scaryyy ¬_¬

Thestrals and Skrewts are always capitalized in the Bloomsbury version, as are all the made-up words. As for the Firebolt, I was looking for a magic device name always capitalized, but all I could think of is the Mirror of Erised, and it sounds to be pretty unique. But more than two hours later (what do you say? I'm a bit slow ^_~) I remembered the Omniculars that are always capitalized even if they are quite common. Back to the Pensieve, Dumbledore said 'This? It is called a Pensieve,' It does sound like if there is no other Pensieve in the world nowadays, there have been more then one through the ages.

Finally, I do believe Alice recognize Neville, maybe not as her son but surely as the kind boy who come to see her from time to time. She still remember that gifts are token of the respect, apreciation and love, but doesn't remember what is a suitable gift, like the guy who gave me the empty envelope.

Edit : That's so sad, I hope JKR will allow them to recover.

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Hollywand - Jul 11, 2004 8:56 pm (#257 of 522)

Gryffindor
Wow, what an interesting thread, please forgive if my first post here has redundancies. Regarding some of the topics raised, here I cast my two knuts: 1) Janus at 49 is interesting as 49 is square of seven, so seems a clue, in the duality between Harry and Neville. 2) I thought the Drooble Bubble Gum wrappers from mom to Neville a metaphor for the bubble that is the Prophecy, and mom is trying desperately to give Neville a warning through her fog. 3) that the wrappers on Rowling's desk are a playful reference to the wrappers as a clue, and will become a puzzle/clue revealed. 4)That the Longbottoms' minds were ransacked by the LeStranges looking for the Prophecy, leaving them heavily damaged, and Malfoy's donations give him access to the Longbottoms at will through "deliveries" in case they do recover. 5) That Trelawney is next up at bat to have her insides cut to ribbons on behalf of the Prophecy. 6) It's Lockhart's karma to end up not knowing who he is since he was so selfish and vain. 7) that the historical wizards who taunt Ron are like old medical doctors who used to kill as many patients as they cured. Cool A bittersweet moment of compassion for Harry when he sees that Neville has lost his parents as well, even though they are right before him, but like ghosts.

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 13, 2004 6:00 am (#258 of 522)

Crazed Writer
I don't know if this has ever come up on this thread, since I'm not going to sit and read through 250 posts, but I think Harry is next in line to end up in the mental ward. JKR has made two references to Harry being in a straitjacket (one after the second task, one after his vision of Voldie-serpent), plus that comment of Draco's that his father said it was "only a matter of time" before Harry ended up there. Thus Harry is perfectly positioned to find out the truth about the Longbottoms -- if he survives his incarceration, of course. (My husband thinks that's how book 6 is going to end, with Harry being carted off to the mental ward. Certainly the Dursleys would be delighted. Ick.)

By the way, I saw that people know where the name "Janus Thickey" came from. I agree that there's something two-faced about the ward. But wouldn't that be a convenient way for Voldie to get his hands on Harry -- fake Harry's , and leave the Order mourning him and none the wiser...

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 13, 2004 1:55 pm (#259 of 522)

Harry going to the mental ward where we learn much more about the Longbottoms.....Mmmm.

I must say that I really hope your husband is wrong. Can you imagine? Book 6 ending in a cliff hanger. "Ick" is right as there would be several heads exploding.

To swing back on topic, though, someone going to the mental ward would seem to be necessary within Book 6 if we are going to learn "firsthand" as opposed say, a "Neville's Tale" chapter whether the Longbottoms are being kept artificially insane. And, as the Books are, mostly, from Harry's point of view, it would seem that he would need to be the one committed. I'd hate to imagine the circumstances of that though. How much is Harry going to have to endure? Everyone was scared of him in COS, thought he was a bit of show off in GOF, and thought he was just plain crazy in OoP. Could he really fall into disfavor with his classmates or the WW again? That horse isn't quite dead but has been beaten enough.

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Tomoé - Jul 13, 2004 2:19 pm (#260 of 522)

Back in business
You forgot when the Gryffindors thought he was a brainless first year who messed up their chance to get the House cup in PS.

I'm sure Harry will go back to St Mungo's, but he don't need be a patient of the mental ward, or even to see someone who get his/her mind mess up. He could go for another reason but decide to pay visit to the Longbottom a day they weren't suppose to receive visitors. I bet Montague will be there too and Harry will finally tell someone what happened.

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 13, 2004 5:26 pm (#261 of 522)

Crazed Writer
Here's some sheer speculation. Remember that, from Voldie's point of view, he really needs to get his hands on Harry this year. This is the last full year before Harry turns 17 and can legally use magic outside of school. Also, Harry's made him look bad in front of his followers, and since he controls them by intimidation, that's something Voldemort can't ignore. He's going to be doing everything he can to get Harry under his control. Plus, Harry is now carrying the prophecy around in his head, and the mental ward would be just the place to get it out of his head. As a nasty "coincidence", did you notice what they said they used to "help" the patients? "Intensive remedial potions"! (No, I'm not trying to imply that Snape is involved with this, just that someone else has the same nasty sense of humor.)

Between the increasingly strong effect that Voldemort is having on Harry, Voldemort's awareness of the link between them, and the potential for traitors or friends under the Imperious Curse, I think it would be possible to make Harry look insane before the end of book 6. Voldie has to use the means he has at his disposal, and the hospital is probably one of those means. He needs to get Harry away from Hogwarts. Think of what a challenge that was in GoF!

And this isn't really a "dead horse." In OotP, the Ministry was just trying to make him out a liar. They failed in that, but they started a strong foundation on which to build a case that "poor, noble Harry Potter, having suffered irreversible brain damage as the result of Voldemort's attack on him as an infant, has finally suffered total mental collapse, and will have to be hospitalized for treatment." They haven't used that foundation yet, and I'm sure they will.

Also, remember that, when Ginny Weasley was taken in CoS (p. 293), Professor McGonagall was interrupted when she started to say, "This is the end of Hogwarts. Professor Dumbledore always said..." What did he always say? That it would be the end of Hogwarts when a student was snatched from the school?

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S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 2:09 am (#262 of 522)

Let it snow!
You know, I actually like this idea. Could this be why Harry's stay at the Dursleys is so short this summer? Can we carry this discussion onto the Harry thread and continue it? I'd love to see where this is going. RPS, can you repost some of your last few posts over there?

As to the Longbottoms and the "remedial potions", so could someone be using Legilimency to keep them insane?

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 5:36 am (#263 of 522)

Crazed Writer
Sure, Sarah, I'll see you over there.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 14, 2004 6:18 am (#264 of 522)

And this isn't really a "dead horse." In OotP, the Ministry was just trying to make him out a liar. They failed in that, but they started a strong foundation on which to build a case that "poor, noble Harry Potter, having suffered irreversible brain damage as the result of Voldemort's attack on him as an infant, has finally suffered total mental collapse, and will have to be hospitalized for treatment." They haven't used that foundation yet, and I'm sure they will.

Perhaps "they" will although its up in the air as to who "they" will be, isn't it? It would seem that Fudge's Ministry is forced to believe Harry now, but we know that he's not long for office. Anyway, to reiterate what I said before, if there is more to the Longbottoms' illness than meets the eye, it would seem that someone must go to St. Mungo's to be in a position to find out about it.

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Laurelin - Jul 14, 2004 9:00 am (#265 of 522)

Do you really think that with Voldemort's return (well, now that it's public) the DP will waste time gossiping about Harry's mental state? Do you think that the MoM could have plans to discredit Harry? I for one would be very surprised if the MoM will continue to be fully functional... if there is no absolute havoc (what with Fudge leaving and I suppose with him some of his closest coworkers will have to leave too) in the wizarding world, then I do expect a lot of mistrust... people who once were suspected of being DEs but could talk themselves out of Azkaban will - I expect - be suspected again... people (wizards) will not know whom to trust... I really cannot imagine that the DP will launch another attack against Harry that'll end him up in St Mungos (and no, Harry will not go there because he really has mental problems, which he hasn't imo). I don't think the Wizarding world really cares for that kind of story at the moment....

...imo.... Smile

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mike miller - Jul 14, 2004 9:46 am (#266 of 522)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Laurelin - I like your thinking about the state of the WW once Voldemort's return is made public. Afterall, it's Voldemort's greatest strength to create discord, mistrust and chaos.

As far as the Longbottom's condition, there may be a more simple option. Who ever has been keeping the Longbottom's incapacitated stops doing it because Lucius isn't there to make the "payoff". Neville could reports some minor improvement over the summer with a breakthrough occurring whenever JKR deems necessary.

Another option goes back to the Mimbulus Mimbletonia theory where Neville creates something from stink sap.

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Padfoot - Jul 14, 2004 1:36 pm (#267 of 522)

If Neville does create some cure for his parents from Mimbulus Mimbletonia, will he need Snape's help? Professor Sprout is good with plants, but Snape is the one who knows what to do with them. The only other person I can picture Neville getting help from is Madam Pomfrey. But I group her with the St. Mungo's staff as medical professionals who have yet to discover any cure. Snape seems the best option, with just the small matter of Neville being terrified of him getting in the way.

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Hollywand - Jul 14, 2004 2:01 pm (#268 of 522)

Gryffindor
I think Snape is an excellent suggestion, Padfoot. A potions master, an excellent Legilimens. Lucius is "indisposed" at Azkaban. Perfectly positioned to become a healer for the Longbottoms and cement his good relations with Dumbledore's Army. Go Severus!
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 9:13 pm (#269 of 522)

Crazed Writer
Ah, alas, I think the only thing the Mimbulus is going to create is havoc at Hogwarts. "...the sinister look of a diseased internal organ..."? This is NOT A GOOD PLANT!!!!!

(*gasp*) Sorry, I got a little carried away. We all have our pet causes, eh? I think Uncle Algie is a bad person (come on, he pushed his nephew off Blackpool pier, and dropped him out the window!) and the Mimbulus is a bad plant. I posted ages ago, over on the Death Eaters thread, that there's a little scrap of evidence that the real Uncle Algie got sent to Azkaban instead of Rabastan LeStrange. I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that dear old Uncle "Pond-slime" works at St. Mungos, but that's all just speculation. *SIGH* I WISH book 6 would come out already, and some of these clues (or potential clues) would get resolved...

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Catherine - Jul 15, 2004 6:31 am (#270 of 522)

Canon Seeker
RPS wrote :Ah, alas, I think the only thing the Mimbulus is going to create is havoc at Hogwarts. "...the sinister look of a diseased internal organ..."? This is NOT A GOOD PLANT!!!!!

I disagree. I think, as I've written on other threads, that the Mimbulus shows how Neville's affection and care improved the plant--it had grown and began to make contented noises. Notice that it didn't use its defense mechanism anymore. Just because it isn't pretty, doesn't mean it can't be magically useful; just because it isn't pretty doesn't follow that it's necessarily evil.

It was Harry's initial impression of the Mimbulus that made it sound so unappealing, but JKR often shows how first impressions are incorrect, and that people need to see things more clearly for what they truly are. I think it shows something about Neville's character that he can appreciate the plant for its qualities without dismissing it because of its appearance.

I'm not sure how the Mimbulus can create havoc at Hogwarts. There are, after all, Venemous Tentaculas and Devil's Snare plants at Hogwarts, both of which could be dangerous.

I'd like to see the Mimbulus prove to be magically helpful to Neville's parents, but I think that is a long shot. I would not be surprised to find out that the Mimbulus has some very special magical properties, though.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 2:40 pm (#271 of 522)

The cure in the mimbulus is a wonderful thought. What if it is Sprout and McGonagal that help him. Could this be why Neville is dancing with Sprout while McGonagal plays the bagpipes?

I always wondered what that meant.

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Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 14, 2004 12:40 pm (#272 of 522)

I agree that that dream probably is a small clue into what Neville's role is going to be, the most probable explanation is that Neville is going to use his skills in Herbology to aid his parents or play some part in DA. He is however, going to need Professor Snape's help when it comes to useing those skills. I think there will be more to Snape's and Neville's relationship and we will find out more about Neville and his parents.

I honestly believe that the gumwrappers are something more than meets the eye, remember, he has 'enough to wallpaper his room with' they actually may be used as communication to inform Neville about what to do,,,okay i'm losing this argument, anyway, something is going to happen. Let me know what you think!

Mortianna

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McSnurp - Aug 15, 2004 2:18 pm (#273 of 522)

An elf of Mirkwood Forest
I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if someone else brought this up. In the beginning of the fifth (I think) book, Neville says that he won't forget this password because it's one of his favorite plants. Since he is involved in herbology, it could be a way to bring Mr+Mrs Longbottom back from their "sickness". This would be something that JKR would do anyway. Bring back the Rennisance way of healing people, by herbology!

Mortianna- I agree with you on the fact that Neville's relationship with Snape will grow in the following two books.

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The One - Aug 15, 2004 3:04 pm (#274 of 522)

Open minded sceptic
I honestly believe that the gumwrappers are something more than meets the eye, remember, he has 'enough to wallpaper his room with' they actually may be used as communication to inform Neville about what to do,,,okay i'm losing this argument, anyway, something is going to happen.

Could not have stated it better myself, the gum wrappers are bound to be important, but I have no idea about how.

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Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 15, 2004 3:34 pm (#275 of 522)

Thanks guys, I love support, and McSnurp, I agree, i think neville will definitely use his herbology skills to help someone, if not his parents...but no matter what he does I can almost safely say (not very solid argument) that the Longbottoms will play a part again...I don't think that this is their end.

Mortianna

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Loopy Lupin - Aug 15, 2004 5:05 pm (#276 of 522)

I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if someone else brought this up-- McSnurp

Good thought, but it was, actually, the topic this thread was on when posts dropped off back in July. Smile

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Archangel - Aug 15, 2004 6:50 pm (#277 of 522)

Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
Hmmm ... Gumwrappers... they could probably contain words and images right? What if Alice keeps handing Neville clues via the gumwrappers possibly a map or a spell or what-have-you?

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DJ Evans - Aug 15, 2004 8:50 pm (#278 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
I had a theory back on Post #97 along with Post #100 that I thought I would bring back up and see if anybody might get something out of them. It deals with the powder that is on the gum & gum wrappers. I think that is what is causing the problems that the Longbottoms are still having -- along with Neville. It might not be something that will get much play now, but I thought it might would fit in with how the discussion is going right now.

Later, Deb

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Madame Librarian - Aug 16, 2004 5:22 am (#279 of 522)

Deb, yes, I remember that. Gum and/or the paper wrappers were suspected as being either agents of some powdered potion that the Longbottoms are given to keep them "ill," or as ways Alice, partially recovered and desperate to communicate, "talks" to Neville. She might be doing something with the wrappers--infusing them with invisible writing possibly. Good ol' Hermione will probably be the one to figure it out.

Ciao. Barb

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Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 16, 2004 10:25 am (#280 of 522)

I like your idea, Archangel, about the gumwrappers mapping out something, if he has enough to wallpaper his room then maybe if he lays them out, they will spell something...(hmmm...reminds me of an X-Files episode)

OR...this idea's really sad, Neville is keeping the wrappers, HOPING that his parents are trying to tell him something and that he's really in denial that they aren't coming back, but that's a really sad thing to think about, poor Neville, it fits with his character though, and it also shows his determination not to give up, which may come in handy with his parents later.

Mortianna

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ex-FAHgeek - Aug 16, 2004 11:23 am (#281 of 522)

The gum wrappers are something of an interesting parallel to the toothpicks and other pathetic gifts the Dursleys send Harry. For Harry, such trash is symbollic of their neglect and lack of caring for him. For Neville, the wrappers are all his parents are able to give, and Alice probably has no comprehension of just how much those little pieces of paper and foil mean to him.

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Madame Librarian - Aug 16, 2004 2:56 pm (#282 of 522)

Wouldn't it be interesting if Lockhart, who has just "learned joined-up writing," shares this little talent with Alice. They practice on the scraps of paper at hand--the wrappers! At some point these tokens Alice gives to Neville (this theory assumes that Alice is treatment is working or her injury was never as complete, something like that) are filled with her scribblings. The scribblings, of course, are important tips. Hermione will still be the one to put it all together.

Now, on to something I just read in a search for something else. I was hunting for a reference to a Hogwarts library book that Tom used to find out about his mother's family background. OK, couldn't find it, but I was reading the opening chapter of GoF, where Frank is eavesdropping on Wormtail discussing plans with Voldemort at the old Riddle mansion. Wormtail is worried that Voldemort will him just as he killed Bertha Jorkins. Voldemort reassures him that there was indeed a real reason to eliminate Bertha. Here goes....

"...In any case, awkward questions could have been asked if she had gone back to the Ministry with the news that she had met you on her holidays. Wizards who supposed to be dead would do well not to run in to Ministry of Magic witches at wayside inns...."

Wormtail muttered something so quietly that Frank could not hear it, but it made the second man laugh--an entirely mirthless laugh, cold as his speech.

"We could have modified her memory? But Memory Charms can be broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her...." (From GOF, chapter 1, pgs. 11-12, US hardcover, emphasis mine.)

What do you make of this? Will it come into play (or has it already) as far as the Longbottoms are concerned, or for that matter, Lockhart.

Ciao. Barb

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Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 16, 2004 5:23 pm (#283 of 522)

EXCELLENT revelation...I agree wholeheartedly that that quote will play a part in something to come, if not the longbottoms themselves.

Mortianna

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Chad Peters - Aug 16, 2004 7:25 pm (#284 of 522)

Personally, I saw the revealing of the Longbottoms as a galvanizing point more than anything. It serves as a way for Jo to bring Neville closer to the core group of Ron, Hermione, and Harry. Further it gives them (Ron and Hermione) a hint at just how cruel the followers of Voldy can be.

Remember, at this time Harry knew Neville's secret. He'd known for about a year and some change at this time, and had never told anyone. Now, Jo could have left it that way; leaving we readers to wonder what kind of insanity the Longbottoms were beset with. I must admit, that I figured them for the "bouncing off the walls" type of insane. But, instead, she chose to use this. Neville is changing at this point in the story. He is begining to show some marked improvement with Harry's help; and yet innocent of the truth of the prophecy that could have just easily been about him. True, Harry is innocent of it as well; but the point remains that, outside his bumbling ways Neville serves no point in the stories up until now; save for comic relief.

However, one should consider the scene as we see it, not for the hidden agenda we might suspect is there. The scene, is very touching on many levels. First being Neville spending the time with his parents. Even though they can not communicate with him; or at least not in the way a normal adult might, he is found spending time with them on his holiday.

Second is the infusion of Harry and the others. Harry, who knows about Neville's parents, makes a conscious thought that the people in this ward never leave it. It's their homes. Ron and Hermione are clueless until they're told by Neville's gran the story of what happened. We see a change here, Ron, normally one to wonder what's going on; who just had yelled to his friend, takes a more subdued stance. His words are solem and, if you will, supportive to a degree.

The last level of the scene, is perhaps the most touching interaction. Neville's mother, who is beyond true communication, shows an act of recognition. She knows, perhaps in her own instinct, who neville is and gives him a small token. That's all the wrapper is, and yet it is far more.

To neville, who has never really had any interaction with his mother or father, this is a wonderful gift. It is something to treasure and cherish, since his mother gave it to him. Hence why he pockets it, and sincerly thanks her. His gran, on the other hand, is blind to the interaction here, and misses the fact that yes, Neville misses his mother, and the wrapper (which he has enough to paper his room with) means a great deal to the boy.

What do I see happening to the Longbottoms? Truthly not much. I suspect they will spend much of thier life in the hospital; while Neville uses their example to grow from. Consider finally, neville's actions in the great battle. Even after his nose was broken, he continued to fight on; and when his father's wand was broke, he did not stop. No, he tucked in and returned the fight to the Death Eaters. Even when he knew he couldn't cast a spell; he resorted to his hands and fists. He never gave up, which is something we probably wouldn't have expected of the boy in the first of the series.

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Ann - Aug 17, 2004 10:42 am (#285 of 522)

Chad, I think you have made a terrific point about Neville's growth. But I think he was far more than comic relief before OotP. When you think about it, in a way, Neville has always been the moral center of the series. Even in PS/SS, Neville, who has not been included in things by HRH, breaks the rules to warn them that Draco was going to turn them in for the dragon incident. And then, at the end, Dumbledore gives him points (and Gryffindor the House cup) because he stood up to his friends to uphold what he saw as the right.

Throughout the series, he comes off as brave and loyal to HRH, even though he has not been included in their friendship. He may be nervous and clumsy from time to time (through less often of late), but if you read through looking for what he says and tries to do, I think it's clear the Sorting Hat sorted him properly. And I suspect if he'd been chosen by Voldemort, he would have done as well even as Harry!

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Madame Librarian - Aug 17, 2004 11:20 am (#286 of 522)

Ann and Chad, I like the things you've said about Neville. With Neville I always think of the old adage that it's often the fool who speaks the truth (or in some versions, is the wisest).

We meet Neville first as the clumsy, forgetful, foolish boy. But in every book we are shown that he thinks for himself (choices, anyone?) and even is exemplary as an honorable, brave Gryffindor. He may not have much style or pizzazz (that may change, too) but he is steadfast and relatively pleasant even during the worst stuff. He seems to be less prone to fly off the handle and be hyer-angry as Harry is. I suspect he will prove to be one of Harry's strongest allies, which is only natural since he could have easily been the chosen One. It does make me worry about what's in store for him, though.

Ciao. Barb

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Loopy Lupin - Aug 17, 2004 2:27 pm (#287 of 522)

I was hunting for a reference to a Hogwarts library book that Tom used to find out about his mother's family background.

What about "Nature's Nobility"? which is a book that was being thrown out at 12 GP? If LV's mom came from prominent pure blood stock, then all the more reason for him to be angry that she turned her back on it all form a common Muggle.

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Madame Librarian - Aug 17, 2004 2:48 pm (#288 of 522)

Thanks, Loony Lupin, but when I said reference, I meant a scene in the book where Tom Riddle or Voldemort tells Harry (or anyone) that he found out the truth about his mother's family when he started at Hogwarts and found the lineage book in the library. I want to be sure I didn't just make that up, I have a vivid imagination and am quite able to remember something like that even if it never really happened.

If we go on with this, the Longbottom thread is not the right one. It should be posted on the Riddle/Voldemort thread.

Ciao. Barb

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Prefect Marcus - Aug 17, 2004 3:22 pm (#289 of 522)

"Anyone can cook"
Barb,

You haven't been reading FanFic, have you?

Marcus

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Madame Librarian - Aug 17, 2004 3:41 pm (#290 of 522)

P.M., not for a long time. And I never read the really long pieces just the fast, fun stuff.

Ciao. Barb

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Loopy Lupin - Aug 17, 2004 4:15 pm (#291 of 522)

Thanks, Loony Lupin, but when I said reference, I meant a scene in the book where Tom Riddle or Voldemort tells Harry (or anyone) that he found out the truth about his mother's family when he started at Hogwarts and found the lineage book in the library. -- Madame Librarian

Ah. Well I don't think there is such a scene. (The topic would probably have its own thread.) Don't fret though. You aren't the only one with the vivid imagination and, at least for me, I sometimes still have problems with movie contamination when it comes to the very minor details. (Shhh. Don't tell Marcus though.)

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Chad Peters - Aug 17, 2004 8:20 pm (#292 of 522)

back on topic Smile

I think, with Neville's parents; we might see some improvement, but ultimately they won't get better. Why? Well, to be honest, how would it help the story as a whole?

On one hand, we might argue that it would give Neville his parents back; and return a pair of the order to the war. On the other, we might say that we'd learn the truth about what happened.

As you may very well know, there are problems with both arguments, but since it's rather late, i'll simplify them for now and explain more if asked.

Basically, it would ruin the development we have seen in Neville. Without the tragedy of his family, we have no reason for him to continue growing against opression.

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Loopy Lupin - Aug 18, 2004 6:25 am (#293 of 522)

Without the tragedy of his family, we have no reason for him to continue growing against opression. -- Chad Peters

Well, if his parents "snapped out of it" tomorrow, I don't see Neville saying "Right, well then, I don't think I'll be coming to the DA meetings now I've got my parents back." It wouldn't ruin the story of Neville's development if his development plays a direct role in their cure (i. e. the mimbulus mimbletonia).

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lupin's daughter - Aug 18, 2004 6:32 am (#294 of 522)

are you hinting that Neville might become a healer??

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Loopy Lupin - Aug 18, 2004 6:49 am (#295 of 522)

Not necessarily a healer. It's been theorized on this thread that the Mimbulus plant may hold the key to curing the Longbottoms. I hope that storyline does come true.

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Stringer - Aug 18, 2004 10:41 am (#296 of 522)

There seem to be quite a few gum wrappers on JK's desk, and behind the door on her web site. Maybe she really likes gum, or maybe it is a reference to Neville's mom giving him all those wrappers? Has this already been discussed somewhere? If so could you let me know where? Thanks!

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DJ Evans - Aug 18, 2004 11:53 am (#297 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Stringer, I'm not sure if it's been discussed on a different thread or not. And whether this means anything or not, but Jo used to be a smoker and quit. I believe it's mentioned in her bio on her web site about "just how many sticks of gum" she used to chew while she was trying to quit. Now rather the gum wrappers there represents her kicking the habit or an actual clue about the Longbottoms is anybody's guess. Or maybe even both?

Later, Deb

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Madame Librarian - Aug 18, 2004 3:00 pm (#298 of 522)

Chad, I disagree about what would happen if the Longbottoms recover. I don't know what Madame Author has planned for them, but if a recovery or partial recovery is in the works, I see Neville even being a better, stronger, more confident kid. He will finally have someone, porbably his mum, who will direct pure love toward him without any attached criticisms or diminished expectations as Gran has.

Aside from the emotional goodies that could be experienced, Alice and/or Frank may move the plot forward with key information--what went down when they were tortured (lots of side conversations with DEs that they heard), information gleaned while at St. Mungos. Lots of stuff.

Ciao. Barb

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Ann - Aug 19, 2004 10:38 am (#299 of 522)

Madame Librarian, I agree; although I also think that Neville may begin to get a bit more respect from his grandmother after his experience in the MoM. After all, he's now taken up his family's battle with the DEs, and even survived a one-on-one with Bellatrix! And I can't believe his Gran will blame him for a wand broken in that enterprise, even if it was his father's.

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Madame Librarian - Aug 19, 2004 1:13 pm (#300 of 522)

Yes, Ann, I agree with that, too. (Isn't it nice to have a mutual admiration society?)

Gran is probably going to say something to the effect of, "My dear boy, what a wonderful surprise! You have some skill at wizardry after all. But you mustn't let that go to your head, you did utterly destroy your poor father's wand. Well, I suppose a visit to Ollivanders is in order now. First, however, fetch me that Floo powder, I must tell Algie of your exploits; he'll be tickled. Oh, and stop mumbling so much when you speak, with that nose of yours (I'm sure Poppy changed the shape for the worse when she mended it), you sound quite different now."

On the other hand, holding a teensy bit of suspicion about Gran, maybe she'll be impressed, but not so pleased. Naaaah. She's probably OK.

Ciao. Barb

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 301 to 350)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:35 am

Loopy Lupin - Aug 19, 2004 2:13 pm (#301 of 522)
I hope Gran is ok, too, but the teensy suspicion continues to Loom.

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Ann - Aug 19, 2004 3:11 pm (#302 of 522)

Surely Gran is on the right side! After all, she's lost her son (or is it her daughter?) and spouse to Voldemort's DEs, and she told Neville that she believed Harry because she believed Dumbledore and expressed a lot of disgust with the stuff the Daily Prophet was saying.

I think we're seeing Gran as intimidating because we see her through both Harry and Neville: we get Neville's fear and what Harry sees of it. She's quite an old lady, a friend of Prof. Marchbanks, who was DD's examiner, after all (and who is another plus on her side--I like Prof. Marchbanks). I don't think she's quite aware enough of her effect on Neville, but she's probably just trying to protect him--too, much, I know, but can you blame her? I'm hoping for some major changes in the Neville-Gran relationship in HP6.

Uncle Algie, however....

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Steve Newton - Aug 19, 2004 3:22 pm (#303 of 522)

Librarian
We are also eying her with suspicion because of her clothes. She wears a vulture hat (a death eater) and, I think, wears Slytherin colors.

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Mortianna Wentworth-Snape - Aug 19, 2004 3:29 pm (#304 of 522)

Interesting observation about the clothes, hmmm I wonder, but remember we're discussing Neville's Parents, unless Gran has something to do with their illness which would be interesting to hear your views on that!

Mortianna

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Madame Librarian - Aug 19, 2004 4:51 pm (#305 of 522)

The theory about Gran being involved with her own son's and daughter-in-law's condition is twofold as I recall from a long while back.

1)--She is evil and has been working for the Dark Side all along (unlikely, I think, but, well...)

2)--She is helping to keep Frank and Alice without their minds and memories, but this is to protect them and/or Neville. So she has to be secretive and seemingly unemotional, but she is really desperate to keep everyone alive.

Anybody remember anything else of the ideas that floated around?

Ciao. Barb

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Archangel - Aug 20, 2004 12:45 am (#306 of 522)

Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
"2)--She is helping to keep Frank and Alice without their minds and memories, but this is to protect them and/or Neville. So she has to be secretive and seemingly unemotional, but she is really desperate to keep everyone alive."

When Neville's away in Hogwarts, do you suppose she visits them in St. Mungo's and performs memory charms or what-have-you on them while the Healer is attending to other patients? Oooooh... that's eeeeevil and low if it were true!
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Some Guy - Aug 20, 2004 1:02 am (#307 of 522)

I don't know. I think the vulture is just imagrey to let the readers know how stiff and old she is. Gran is to protective to be a Death Eater. Example: The remembar-all, howler, Lucious Malfoy's insult "Your Gran is use to losing family members by now."

When Nevile gets his own wand he will dominate. I also think Nev. will cure his parents with the Nimbulus Mimbletonia plant.

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Madame Librarian - Aug 20, 2004 5:33 am (#308 of 522)

Is it possible that Gran, way back when, was a Slytherin, but a good one? Hence the green, the vulture, the lack of a touchy-feely grandma personality. Just a thought. Means nothing, except possible insight into how Gran has helped the Order...by being familiar with those who may be DEs from her generation.

Ciao. Barb

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Loopy Lupin - Aug 20, 2004 6:56 am (#309 of 522)

I think that your recollection of the Gran theories is pretty on target Madame Librarian. There were nuances here and there, but basically she was either plain evil or had good intentions but a curious way of showing them. The green and the vulture hat (who the heck wears a vulture hat) could be red herrings, but I like the idea that she was a Slytherin but not a LV supporter.

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Menopause Molly - Aug 20, 2004 10:00 am (#310 of 522)

Hi, all, Newbie Alert! Just a thought as I was going through this thread. How is Alice getting gum to begin with? I know there's a tea room at St. Mungo's but I don't recall a gift shop. Could a certain candy-loving character (Dumbledore) be visiting the Longbottoms and bringing Alice the Droobles' bubble gum?

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Remus J. Lupin - Aug 20, 2004 2:12 pm (#311 of 522)

Steve, why do you think that a vulture hat could mean something having to do with a DE? It could just be that Gran Longbottom likes vultures.

By the way, Ann, you were right the first time. If Gran is called Mrs Longbottom, she would be Neville's dad's mother.

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Remus J. Lupin - Aug 20, 2004 2:18 pm (#312 of 522)

Menopause Molly, you may have a point. If Alice is incapable of leaving the ward, how can she get gum? Wait! Lightbulb! Maybe Neville is sending it to her for a present or something because he heard or knew that she had a fancy for it whilst she was sane.

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Madame Librarian - Aug 20, 2004 4:12 pm (#313 of 522)

...and Gran buys Neville the gum to bring to his mother. Ta dah!! A source of gum that might be tampered with by--Gran?

On the other hand, it may be the wrappers that are key. It doesn't matter how the gum gets to Alice, that's incidental. Before discarding the paper, she (not being as ill as Frank, and not letting the healers know that she's "there") manages to magick a message on the papers. Hermione will figure it out. I think Neville has probably saved every single wrapper, not because he thinks there are messages on them, just because they are from his mum. But Hermione will notice something about them. A theory, not so wild.

Ciao. Barb

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Steve Newton - Aug 20, 2004 8:20 pm (#314 of 522)

Librarian
Remus,

A vulture is a carrion eater. He eats dead things. Hence a death eater.

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Ann - Aug 20, 2004 8:41 pm (#315 of 522)

Loopy Lupin: "(who the heck wears a vulture hat?)"

Actually, ancient Egyptian queens wore them, with the wings pulled down on the sides and tucked behind the ears. Cute, huh? I am not suggesting that Neville's Gran is anything of the sort, by the way. Hats with birds on them were popular in the late 19th and early 20th century. It is probably just more evidence that she is a very old lady.

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Ann - Aug 27, 2004 8:21 pm (#316 of 522)

Back, after several days now, to the gum wrappers and Alice's relationship with Neville. I was wondering whether anyone thinks there might be a relationship between the Prophecy and the fact that Voldemort's followers attacked the Longbottoms. They presumably heard the prophecy, as did the Potters, because they also had a son born at the end of the seventh month. So they were probably in hiding, too, and when Voldemort went off to kill Harry, he presumably planned to go on to the Longbottoms afterwards and take out Neville. When he vanished, the DE's had no idea where he was, and the Potter's house was destroyed, so they presumably moved on to the next stop. Does this work?

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Madame Librarian - Aug 27, 2004 9:28 pm (#317 of 522)

Ann, I don't know. Are we sure that DD told the Potters and/or the Longbottoms about the prophecy? Plus, we know that James and Lily were in hiding and supposedly under the protection of a Secret Keeper, but we're not told whether DD arranged the same for the Longbottoms. I would have thought he would have given Frank and Alice the same protection because when the prophecy was made, neither baby had been "marked."

As it stands right now, I think Voldemort heard a piece of the prophecy from the eavesdropper and shortly thereafter Peter Pettigrew shares his big secret with him..."My Lord, I have new of where the Potters are hiding." I don't think any other DEs or even Order members were in on the prophecy. DD didn't tell anyone else, except maybe (big maybe) the Potters. The reason Voldemort went after them is he figured that the reason they were in hiding in the first place was because DD knew the prophecy was about their baby, Harry. But maybe they were in hiding simply because they had already defied him so many times that they were on a major hit-list of the bad guys.

Make sense? I can't tell because I am too tired to think straight. Better stop now.

Ciao. Barb

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Ann - Aug 28, 2004 11:07 am (#318 of 522)

I think DD must have told both the Longbottoms and the Potters about the prophecy--generally--and the fact that someone had heard part of it and that Voldemort was likely to target their kids. He wouldn't have left them ignorant of that. Whichever DE heard the prophecy and told Voldemort about it must also have known. I am sure that DD didn't tell anyone else about the whole thing until he told Harry; but since the first bit was already in Voldemort's hands, there would be no point to keeping that a big secret.

My theory would be that he had an agenda--take out Harry and then Neville, and that the DEs didn't know the details, but when his attack on Harry failed, they assumed that he would have gone on to the Longbottoms. (Maybe their secret keeper was uncle Algie!) When the Longbottoms came out of hiding, after everyone knew that Harry had survived the curse, where else would the DEs go for information about LV? No one knew what had happened to him, the Potters were dead, except for Harry who was too young to help them, and the DEs might well have assumed that Voldemort had gone on to wherever the Longbottoms were hiding, and they would have seen him.

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Madame Librarian - Aug 28, 2004 11:46 am (#319 of 522)

Ann, you lead me to the next question. Why, for goodness sake, did Frank and Alice either not go into hiding or come out of hiding too soon? What I mean is before the attack, you'd think DD would make the same safety provisions for them. After the attack, did he allow them to "re-appear" even though he admitted he knew Voldemort wasn't really gone (not to mention the vengeful DEs rampaging)?

Or was it a case of the Longbottoms simply not listening to the advice of DD? Did they refuse to go into hiding in the first place or not stay there?

Another possibility: They were in hiding and they, too, had a Secret Keeper. And, the Longbottoms also were betrayed by their Secret Keeper. Now that would be a wonderful plot twist because it would plant a 2nd traitor in the Order, maybe still there. For some as yet unclear reason, DD knows this but is not ready to act, or doesn't know who it was. That's the crucial piece of information that Alice may be trying to tell Neville (if that sweet theory is at all true), or the reason the Longbottms are kept "ill" and locked up in St. Mungo's.

Whatever pans out, I'm thinking that Madame Author is giggling in glee that no one as yet has asked that obvious question, that is--what did DD do about the Longbottoms before the attack at Godric's Hollow, and why were they not in hiding after.

Ciao. Barb

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Good Evans - Aug 28, 2004 12:10 pm (#320 of 522)

Practically perfect in every way
Barb

I think I asked something similar some time ago about whether the longbottoms were or were not also in hiding. But I do like the idea about them being betrayed by a secret keeper. There are various members of the order not yet explained (beautifully brought up by Moody when he showed harry the old photo)any one of them could have been secret keeper. I am sure that Dumbledore would know who the secret keeper was though and if it is not one of the dead or mising members of the order, I would be sure that he knows of the betrayal. However there are times that I beleive Dumbledore knows things but for his own reasons keeps it to himself. So if it is an exisiting member he my not be saying anything but keeping them very carefully under observation.

yes, like it, good one Barb

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 28, 2004 3:01 pm (#321 of 522)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
I too wonder if the Longbottoms were or weren't in hiding. Maybe being from "old blood", they may be the type of people who stay and face trouble. Reminds me of those who stay when a bad hurricane approaches. They well may have not have gone in hiding.

Good Evens, you did bring up an interesting point. If the secret keeper dies, what happens? Ok, let me map it out for me. Say I am your secret keeper, perhaps like James had as to where he and his family lived. I had only told one other person, on a need to know basis, as in the Order. Maybe as soon as I told that one person, we were attacked and killed. What would it do to the protection, I think is what I am trying to say. I just gave myself a headache.

I also agree Dumbledore knows many things, but he doesn't know everything, therefore when his suspicions are aroused he is very watchful. He never had proof of what Tom did to Hagrid, but he keep "an annoying eye" on Tom the rest of Tom's stay at Hogwarts, and afterwards.

EDIT!:"well may have not have gone", am applying for butcher's job Monday morning! That was bad even for me!

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Chad Peters - Aug 28, 2004 6:24 pm (#322 of 522)

hmm, I forget who said it exactly (I think Madam Lib did) but the idea of DD knowing there was a leak and not doing anything; while sounding cold is something of a tactical decision that might prove to his advantage.

I once heard a similar scenario, involving two countries. In this scenario, you, (or I) are the leader of the country and discover that in five days, that your enemy will attack one of your cities and probably destroy it. Also, you have air tight information that in ten days you will be at 200% strength and able to wipe out your enemy, utilizing a flaw in their plans that will leave them ungarded after the attack. What do you do?

The answer was, sadly enough, to do nothing. In this scenario, by sacrificing the one city; you gained the time you needed to wait out the enemy, and prepare your troops for the later attack. Also, this sacrifice galvanized your citizenry behind you, making them more likely to follow you.

Now, how does that relate here? It's a big what if...but what if DD /knew/ that Harry's parents were going to die, but also knew that there would be no way to later kill Voldy. So, in the best interests of the WW, DD just let the attack go on, planing to use Harry against Voldy when the time came.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 28, 2004 6:55 pm (#323 of 522)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
I kinda feel that is the whole idea behind Dumbledore's plan, at least at this point. I feel indeed the prophesy (or a previous prophesy), foretold and unfolded that Harry's parents were going to die. Maybe Dumbledore made another, earlier mistake, playing strategy, "never thinking I would have such a person on my hands", maybe ... toddles off to St Mungo's.

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Chad Peters - Aug 29, 2004 9:10 pm (#324 of 522)

Ah, don't go just yet. I think I see what you're getting at. If I were to put DD into the scenario; and take it from a HP point of view, it'd read:

You're Dumbledore. You've been given a prophecy that says in essence, one of your dearest friends will become parent to the answer to your war with Voldy. The problem is, this prophecy isn't exactly clear on what happens next.

Now, you know several things though. The first being that it's people who have thrice defied him. That means there's only a small handfull of people. In fact, only two families. But, you don't know which one, so you're left with a problem.

You also know, that if you secret away the families, taking them someplace they can't be touched, then chances are very good that your enemy will realise the ruse, and attack then. And, it's entirely possible that you'd be caught with your proverbial pants down and obliterated. What should you do?

Leaving them in the open, would probably signify the doom of your savior, and hiding them away would make things worse; so, knowing there is a spy in your midst (but not exactly whom) you decided to put the cards on the table. Leaving one family as bait, you secret away another. Thing is, you don't expect this family to be the target; rather you're pretty certain they're not. Secreting them away, however, tells your enemy that you suspect something is amiss, but by leaving the other unguarded, there's a chance they'll not catch on.

Enter the spy. You may suspect who the spy is, but can't prove it; and much as you hate to admit it, there's a chance that this spy may prove a perfect means to your end. Letting this spy gain the info you need, you just sit back and wait to see who gets attacked.

At that point, it was a coin toss. The Longbottoms were ungaurded and free as bait, and the Potters were secreted away. Voldy chose the Potters, as we all know. But what of the Longbottoms?

Well, it goes back to the "bait" point. They were just that (in my opinion) and when the potters were gone, it's only natural the DE's turned on them. They had also thrice defied Voldy, and were aurors to boot. Perhaps, the spy even warned them it could be a trap (the original attack on the Potters) and they (the DE's) figure that their fearless leader had failed, and the Longbottoms should have been the real targets. So, off they go, to crucio the Longbottoms into insanity.

Now, so I stay marginally on topic here, what's the secret to their madness? I have a theory on this, just a silly one maybe, but a small theory.

Pain does things to a person. And constant pain is almost enough to drive you mad. Who's to say that the Longbottoms are not STILL feeling the pain of the curse? Perhaps there's a spell that keeps them from feeling it, something along the lines of a muggle lobotomy, that severs the little bits of pain they keep feeling; making them far less human than they ought be.

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Alice I - Aug 30, 2004 11:27 am (#325 of 522)

Hello everyone, I am very new to this board and I tried to read the entire thread before posting but there are over 300 messages here. After an hour of just reading I decided to simply post my thoughts. If I am repeating someone else forgive me but there really are over 300 posts here.

I think that it is possible that the Longbottoms were tortured for reason other than what were stated in the trial that Harry saw in the pensive. It is possible that Frank and Alice had other information that the Death Eater’s wanted possibly something that would help to revive or bring back Voldemort. I think that Neville witnessed this torture but was undiscovered by the Death Eater’s doing the torture. If they knew that Neville was present they would have tortured him to make his parents talk. I imagined the following scene:

Alice lay curled up in a ball her face turned toward the stairs. The fire that consumed her very bones extinguished for the moment while the Lestrange woman trained her wand on Frank, who bellowed in agony behind her. A movement caught her sight and she turned her red watery eyes up the staircase to see her 18 month old son sitting looking down on the scene below with wide eyes. He looked beyond shocked, he was staring transfixed at his screaming father transfixed with horror, clutching the stair rail as if it were the only solid object in a tumultuous sea of raging violence. Alice locked eyes with her son just then and they both simultaneously shed a tear. Alice mouthed "I love you" before Lucius Malfoy trained his wand on her again screaming "WHERE IS IT!!!" Alice brought her finger up to her mouth and made a shhhing motion to Neville before she rolled over and looked into the eyes of her tormentor and with her finger still to her lips actually uttered the sound Shhh before he yelled "Crucio" and she was wrapped in a wave of fiery pain that brought new anguished screams to her lips.

Malfoy would not want his involvement in that exposed so he would have very good reason to keep the Longbottoms "insane" all of these years.

Imagine Gran coming home to find her son and daughter-in-law tortured into unconciousness and her grandson in a catatonic state of shock. She could have used a memory charm on him to make him forget what he had seen and that would explain his poor memory that is stated repeatly in evey book.

PS: for those English Majors out there: I am just an average joe who makes grammer mistakes regularly so don't beat me up if I have too many commas or have puncuated things incorrectly. Smile

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Chad Peters - Aug 30, 2004 1:37 pm (#326 of 522)

You know...that actually makes a great deal of sense.

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Leila 2X4B - Aug 30, 2004 3:55 pm (#327 of 522)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Alice, do you mean "grammar mistakes"? Sorry, I couldn't help me self. We will all try to behave and play nice.

Welcome and good posting,

Leila

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TomProffitt - Aug 30, 2004 8:38 pm (#328 of 522)

Bullheaded empiricist
"I think that it is possible that the Longbottoms were tortured for reason other than what were stated in the trial that Harry saw in the pensive." --- Alice I

Excellent observation Alice. While it's not in canon, there can be no doubt that there is something they had that Lord Voldemort wanted very much. Something he still wants.

Alice and Frank Longbottom had full knowledge of the complete prophecy.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 30, 2004 8:59 pm (#329 of 522)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"Alice and Frank Longbottom had full knowledge of the complete prophecy. "

Care to speculate as to how they knew?

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TomProffitt - Aug 30, 2004 9:32 pm (#330 of 522)

Bullheaded empiricist
Dumbledore would have told them Twink. The Potters went into hiding after Albus's warning. I'm certain Dumbledore told both sets of parents the full prophecy because it concerned their sons.

I just cannot see Dumbledore keeping something that important from a parent he knows, loves, and trusts.

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Phoenix song - Aug 30, 2004 10:06 pm (#331 of 522)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Although we know that Dumbledore says that he will never lie, we DO know that he will keep information to himself. We know that he has kept secret things from Harry that he really deserved to hear. I can certainly see Dumbledore deciding that it wasn't necessary or prudent to let the Longbottoms OR the Potters know the exact wording of the prophesies. (Maybe for the very reason that you've stated.)

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Chris. - Aug 31, 2004 5:38 am (#332 of 522)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I think it is reasonable to assume that Alice and Frank would be informed of the Prophecy. Neville would not know, seeing as he was a young child the time.

When LV was defeated, it's possible that the Longbottoms came out of hiding, and that's when the DEs attacked.

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TomProffitt - Aug 31, 2004 5:40 am (#333 of 522)

Bullheaded empiricist
The military and intelligence service concept of "need to know," is something that I believe applies here.

A short definition of the concept can be put this way: In order to protect secrets, people will only be given information that is required for them to do their jobs or accomplish their missions.

Secrets are not given out based upon trustworthiness. If a person cannot be trusted with the secret they are not given the mission. If a person can be trusted they are only given the secret if it impacts upon their job or mission.

I believe that Albus trusted both the Longbottoms and the Potters and that both would need full knowledge of the prophecy to properly protect and raise their sons. After all, none of them knew when Lord Voldemort would mark his equal.

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Ann - Aug 31, 2004 12:19 pm (#334 of 522)

Alice I, I really like your reconstruction. I was thinking about something of the sort (that the DEs would have gone to the Longbottoms next since they were also candidates for the prophecy, and I also think Tom Proffitt is right, that Dumbledore told the Potters and the Longbottoms at least the part of the Prophecy that Voldemort's spy had heard--and possibly the whole thing, unless he thought they might find it too disheartening.

Oh, and Alice, don't worry about the spelling and grammar nitpicking; it is all kindly meant, and it is actually good discipline. Writing clearly makes your arguments more convincing. I think posting on this board has actually helped my writing quite a bit!

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DJ Evans - Aug 31, 2004 3:27 pm (#335 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!

**Quirky Thought Alert***

Has anyone else ever wonder if the Longbottoms just might have been spies for the Order? Unless I'm forgetting something here or whatever, but is there anyone else that the DE's tortured as much/long as they did the Longbottoms? Seems like there might be more behind the treatment that they received from the DE's than to just get some information on LV's where abouts. Oh, I know the DE's have tortured and killed others, but there is just something here that is bugging me about their situation. Feasible, you think?

Later, Deb

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Madame Librarian - Aug 31, 2004 4:30 pm (#336 of 522)

Deb, I've been thinking it could be something to do with the DEs figuring that the Longbottoms knew the special magic that was used to "disappear" Voldemort.

Since they were most likely aware of Voldemort's near transformation to being immortal, the DEs knew that only something very special would have gotten through to Voldemort. They'd certainly want to know all about it.

I don't think they were aware of the prophecy and how the two couples and their babies were candidates for being The One. I don't think any but a very few knew about that. I do think they were desperate at that point to 1)--try to find Voldemort, and 2)--find out if a secret weapon known only to the Order had been used.

Ciao. Barb

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DJ Evans - Aug 31, 2004 6:21 pm (#337 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Barb, you could be right there. But "did" the DE's know (at the time that they tortured the Longbottom's) what had happen to LV? I was under the impression that they didn't. I'm wrong again, aren't I? I was thinking that they just knew LV had disappeared -- were searching for him and trying to find out what had happen. Add that on top "if" they (the Longbottom's) were spies and were found out by some of the DE's then I can see where the DE's anger would be out of this world.

I can so see that I need to re-read my books again. I'm starting to forget so much here lately.

Later, Deb

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Madame Librarian - Aug 31, 2004 7:39 pm (#338 of 522)

Deb, I think the DEs were worried that Voldemort's protections or whatever they were had been breached. Remember, within 24 hours of the attack at Godric's Hollow the whole Wizarding world is celebrating the defeat/killing of Voldemort.

Now, knowing what they know, the DEs may not quite believe that Voldemort is truly dead. Can't you just hear them talking?

"That's not true, what they're saying over at the Ministry! Lucius has advised us that our Master had so nearly perfected the immortality transformation, that it cannot be that a small child could kill him. He has...escaped; he is laying low. That's it! Come, Bella, do not fret. We will find those friends of that Potter couple--you know, the Longbottoms--and use our methods to make them reveal what has happened."

"Oh, my dear, but what if he is dead? What if that infernal Dumbledore has conjured a new weapon and the Potters made use of it? The whole of Diagon Alley is dancing and shouting in joyous celebration. Our friends are terrified the Order will seek them out and it'll be over for us. We must find out if there was a weapon; the Longbottoms will be our first 'interviewees'."

The books and the Lex are vague about exactly when the Longbottoms were tortured, but by the end of that year, the DEs were in Azkaban for the crime. The attack on Godric's Hollow is on Halloween. The LeStranges, etal. are in prison by end of December, so it's no more than 4 to 6 weeks later. I'd guess it was a matter of days.

Ciao. Barb

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DJ Evans - Aug 31, 2004 8:03 pm (#339 of 522)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Hmmm, good point Barb!! OK, I'll forgot the idea of the Longbottom's being spies for the Order. Though I don't want to "push" Jo or anything, but I sure will be glad to get book 6 so we can get some new back stories!!!!!!!! There's so many questions just dying to be answered!

Later, Deb

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tabs - Sep 2, 2004 7:49 pm (#340 of 522)

hello, im new to this forum but its been fun reading your posts. anyway, i tried to read all 300 something posts but i couldn't get through more then an hour of reading and actually "understanding" it. (i once spent almost 2 hours reading the posts on tom riddle/voldomort and by the end of it i realized that i hadn't taken in a word of it.)

just finished reading post #324 but theres something i don't fully understand. let's put ourselves for a moment in voldomorts position. A DE comes to LV w/ news about the propecy. Obviously, he is extremely interested and realizes that there are 2 families that might be future candidates. Voldomort knows there are two candidates because the prophecy suggests that "the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord" will have families who have thrice defied him. Then, he finds out that the Potters are in hiding and the Longbottoms are not (or so it seems.) He would then (based on wormtails advice) obviously attack the Potters because they are in hiding. And, to make it even easier, i have the perfect way to get to them since wormtail is there secret keeper.

we all know what happens next, but don't you guys think its a bit odd of DD, knowong full well what will happen to some of his dearest friends if this ruse fails? Put 2 families up for sacrifice and hope that they don't die? i admit theres a point of sacrificing something for the greater good, but isn't this going a little too far? and what after the potters? does DD keep the Longbottoms in the open? When he knows that the remaining angry, scared and desperate DE know the prophecy, and that they will do almost anything to save themselves or Voldomort.

What im trying to get at is i just don't understand how DD could be so stupid after Harry and Voldomorts encounter, to just let the Longbottoms be out in the open. Also, the Longbottoms were aurors, so we know they were very smart.

The only other alternative to DD just being so darn stupid is that he did it on purpose but the insanity of both Longbottoms was not part of the plan. And so now the longbottoms are.......doing something.......thats ....... (head falls down on keyboard from lack of sleep)

All in all, i will be really happy when book six comes out, itll save my brain from thinking itself out for the next month or so. thx jus for listining to my ramblings T_T

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Ann - Sep 3, 2004 12:48 pm (#341 of 522)

tabs, welcome to the Forum! You wrote: I just don't understand how DD could be so stupid after Harry and Voldemort's encounter, to just let the Longbottoms be out in the open. Also, the Longbottoms were aurors, so we know they were very smart.

As we've seen with Sirius, it's hard for Dumbledore not to allow his troops to fight--and as you point out, the Longbottoms were aurors. DD says when he is explaining it all to Harry that one reason everyone was so upset about the attack on them was that it had been long enough that everyone was beginning to feel safe again--I suspect a year or so, rather than the few weeks that everyone on this thread has been assuming. Surely they weren't going to stay in hiding forever?

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Madame Librarian - Sep 3, 2004 7:24 pm (#342 of 522)

Ann, we are not assuming the torture of the Longbottoms was when it was. We are told clearly in the book, and this is confirmed in the Lex. Bella and her husband are tried and sentenced to Azkaban by the New Year after the Godric's Hollow attack. That took place on Halloween, 1981. By Dec. 31 or Jan.1, the LeStranges were in prison. Allowing a minimum of a few days for arrest and trial, the latest the torture incident could have occurred was during the last week in Dec., 1981. I really think it happened much closer to the time of attack, though, but for the sake of argument it could have been a little later. Not a year, though.

Ciao. Barb

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Ann - Sep 3, 2004 8:05 pm (#343 of 522)

Madame Librarian, I checked GoF, and Dumbledore actually says "after the fall of Voldemort, just when everyone thought they were safe." Is there a more specific reference? Under Longbottom, the Lexicon says "c. 1981"--that could be the date of the fall of Voldemort, too, except that I don't think they would say "circa."

(I'm not really invested one way or the other here--and in fact some of my ideas would work better if it was sooner; but a later date was the way I'd pictured it, somehow.)

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Madame Librarian - Sep 4, 2004 6:27 am (#344 of 522)

Ahh, I knew I'd be digging around for this factoid. Ann, honestly, I don't have the quote right handy, but I will check. Today is a goofy day for me, so please be patient. Anyone else able to offer the "proof?" Thanks.

Ciao. Barb

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haymoni - Sep 4, 2004 10:46 am (#345 of 522)

All I can find are the references in GOF after Harry's trip into the Pensieve.

Anyone else with a more specific time frame?

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Hollywand - Sep 13, 2004 7:41 pm (#346 of 522)

Gryffindor
Great discussion on the Longbottoms, I have always pictured the events as: A concerted Death Eater search for the Prophecy---Bella seeks out the Longbottoms, torturing them for the location of the prophecy. I have associated this with Alice's (in Wonderland!) obssession with bubble gum, specfically, as the prophecy is a transparent sort of bubble, containing the information. Alice hands the bubble gum wrappers to her son as a desperate sort of ghost gesture to warn her son, even though the event has long passed.

I can't help associating Gum with Muggle, too....Be Lost, Dr Muggle Brood Wins! :-D Drooble's best....anagram

As Bella is torturing the Longbottoms, Wormtail seeks out Voldemort with his newsflash about the Potter's location. Voldemort breaks into Godric's Hollow, to finish off the Potter guy himself and gets a nasty surprise.

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MzWhizz123 - Sep 13, 2004 8:05 pm (#347 of 522)

I thought the Longbottom's were tortured after LV vaporized. ?

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haymoni - Sep 14, 2004 5:26 am (#348 of 522)

Yes - they were, but how long after is the question.

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Madame Librarian - Sep 14, 2004 7:55 am (#349 of 522)

The story tells us that the LeStanges, etal. tortured Alice and Frank in an effort to find the whereabouts of Voldemort. This supposedly occurred sometime between Nov. 1st when the news of the attack at Godric's Hollow was known and Dec. 31st that same year. We know this because it is written that the attack was "shortly after" and by the end of the year the LeStranges were in Azkaban. My source for this (since I can't remember the exact book/scene, although I'm pretty sure it's a conversation between DD and Harry) is the Lex Timeline.

I don't think too many people knew about that 1st prophecy. DEs were looking for Voldemort, not the prophecy...unless, hmmm, that's just what we're supposed to think.

Ciao. Barb

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haymoni - Sep 14, 2004 8:06 am (#350 of 522)

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the Longbottoms were tortured to find out the whereabouts of Voldy.

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 351 to 400)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:36 am

Tomoé - Sep 22, 2004 12:04 pm (#351 of 522)
Back in business
Just a thought, before I forget it again, maybe it's not a vulture on gran's hat, but an Augurey (FB).

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phoenix fire - Sep 22, 2004 6:34 pm (#352 of 522)

Berkeley baby, Berkeley
That is an interesting thought! It looks like a vulture, and "augury" means art of divination. That seems too intriguing to be accidental, when the Longbottoms are so involved with the prophecy! But what could it possibly mean?

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Doxy Bowtruckle - Sep 24, 2004 5:20 am (#353 of 522)

Vulture or Augury?

I checked for a desciption in PoA and Neville seems sure that it is a stuffed Vulture on the hat, although some what moth eaten!. I'm sure i have read else where it resembled an "Over Stuffed Vulture" but the description of an Augury is small, thin and resembling an underfed vulture. But you never know!

I think that Neville is destined to find a cure for his beloved parents, hense the reason why he is so good at herbology.

doxyB

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phoenix fire - Sep 24, 2004 7:07 am (#354 of 522)

Berkeley baby, Berkeley
I agree! Neville I think Neville will cure his parents, defeat Bellatrix, and finally be regarded as a real equal by his peers and himself. (And hopefully his Gran!)

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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 2, 2004 7:08 am (#355 of 522)

That would be so satisfying to see Neville push Bellatrix through the veil, wouldn't it?

I don't think Bellatrix will die until book 7, though.

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gypsy68 - Oct 10, 2004 2:34 am (#356 of 522)

doubt very much they are working undercover for dumbledor since they are in a hospital, in a ward where the staff keep a very close eye on them. no, that one doesnt make sense.

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Hogs Head - Oct 11, 2004 2:14 pm (#357 of 522)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
That would be "deep cover" indeed. Even Donny Brasco didn't get far undercover.

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Zirtaheb - Oct 13, 2004 4:51 pm (#358 of 522)

gum papers....are really important I think, all Rowling's desk is with t and Neville's mum give him with one proposit, the papers are the clue...but the clue of what?

'Drooble's Best Blowing Gum' is an anagram of 'Gold bribe below St. Mungo's' :S

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Doxy Bowtruckle - Oct 14, 2004 10:53 am (#359 of 522)

Excellent anagram Zirtaheb.

But i really think that the gum papers are due to fact that JK has given up smoking, I think it also mentions this on her site.

I would like to know who else is in the ward with them. You never know, Lockheart may have a few clues? LOL

As i have said before, if anyone is to save Nevilles parents, it will be him. She say's with finger's crossed! Smile

DoxyB

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Christina Branco - Oct 23, 2004 1:48 pm (#360 of 522)

I personally beleive that what made the Longbottoms senile was a blood vessel rupture in the brain. Maybe all that pain made a vein burst, and it burst right in the memory spot of the brain? I know of people that had a stroke that hit the memory-bank, and now are acting like Neville's parents. Just a thought.

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rambkowalczyk - Nov 3, 2004 7:45 am (#361 of 522)

To go back a few post, where is it stated that the Lestranges are in Azkaban by the following Jan?

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Madame Librarian - Nov 3, 2004 4:32 pm (#362 of 522)

Ramb, I have spent the last hour reading through many chapters trying to find the exact quote that confirms the timing of the Lestrange imprinsonment, but I couldn't find it. (Arrgghh!) I do know that the Lexicon timeline confirms the end of the year (1981) arrest. The pensieve scene in GoF, ch. 30, where Harry sees the trial, has no date attached to it, so I guess I'm a little confused as to where the Lexicon got this information. That is the chapter where DD tells Harry about Neville's parents. I looked in a number of chapters in both GoF and OoP where Bellatrix and her gang are featured or mentioned, or where the Longbottoms play a role, but--no luck.

Here's the Lex. paragraph under "1981:"

Bellatrix Black Lestrange, Rodolphus Lestrange, Rabastan Lestrange, and Bartemius Crouch Jr. are arrested for using the Cruciatus Curse on Frank and Alice Longbottom in an attempt to discover the whereabouts of Voldemort; all of the accused are sent to Azkaban.

Does anyone else recall where the timing is stated in canon? Is it in an early book than GoF or OoP? If not, I wonder if I should ask Lexicon Steve. Would it make a difference if it's not by the end of that year, but later? I just don't know.

Ciao. Barb

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Tomoé - Nov 3, 2004 5:51 pm (#363 of 522)

Back in business
I looked too, but couldn't fine the quote. I remember I was wondering too where it was said and I remember actually reading it somewhere then getting peace on that matter, but I can remember where (or maybe it's just another made up/twisted memory).

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Madame Librarian - Nov 3, 2004 8:30 pm (#364 of 522)

Do you think it's a matter for Lexicon Steve to resolve? I'm more curious now as to where he got the info for his Lexicon entry than I am about any impact the timing of the arrest/trial/imprisonment may have on the story. Now, it just bugs me.

Ciao. Barb

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Ann - Nov 3, 2004 9:33 pm (#365 of 522)

We discussed this question (when the Longbottoms were attacked and when the Lestranges and Barty were sent to Azkaban) about 20 posts back, in early September. I couldn't find anywhere that it was really resolved except by an appeal to the Lexikon, which of course is Authority, but not Evidence. On the other hand, I seem to remember that it was, somewhere (the Neville thread?), since I seem to remember thanking someone for finding the citation that proved me wrong. (But then I do that so often....!)

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Madame Librarian - Nov 3, 2004 10:10 pm (#366 of 522)

Ann, I know I was involved in discussing this very thing a few times, so when I searched I limited it to my name. I'll try again, but try a broader keyword phrase.

Nope, no luck. Darn it! This is so frustrating. I will marinate this dilemma for a while, and then perhaps I will post a question on the "Corrections to the Lexicon" thread.

If someone is ready to do so now, go ahead.

Ciao. Barb

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Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 27, 2004 10:47 am (#367 of 522)

Bellatrix Black Lestrange, Rodolphus Lestrange, Rabastan Lestrange, and Bartemius Crouch Jr. are arrested for using the Cruciatus Curse on Frank and Alice Longbottom in an attempt to discover the whereabouts of Voldemort; all of the accused are sent to Azkaban.

The murder of the Potter's occurred on Halloween. If we assume that the torture of the Longbottoms took place before the end of 1981. This gave Bellatrix Black Lestrange, Rodolphus Lestrange, Rabastan Lestrange and Bartimeus Crouch eight weeks in which to plan and execute the attack on the Longbottoms. Given the stature of the Longbottoms and the fact that they were Aurors I doubt an unpremeditated attack could have succeeded. Bellatrix's impetuous nature raises doubt she could plan such an attack within the time constraints proposed. That being said Lucius Malfoy definitely possesses the intellect necessary to plan a premeditated attack.

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Aurora Gubbins - Jan 11, 2005 5:51 am (#368 of 522)

I'm new to this thread, so haven't read many of the 367 previous posts, please forgive me if I repeat...

Something occured to me during a post on a different thread so I thought I'd bring it over here...Neville's mum has given him enough Droobles wrappers to Paper his bedroom. I don't expect the Longbottoms would have their supplies of Droobles off the hospital tea trolley, so where are they coming from? Also I wouldn't have thought that it was the ideal thing to have on a hospital ward. I have this strange idea that the gum has been 'doctored' with some sort of potion so that anyone who chews the gum is left in a state of insanity We don't know what the ingredients are but they could include lovage, alihotsy, scurvy-grass and sneezewort, at least in the stuff the Longbottoms have anyway. If this is the case, Neville's aptitude for Herbology could well save his parents.

Aurora xx

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Snuffles - Jan 11, 2005 6:03 am (#369 of 522)

Olivia
Thats a great thought Aurora. where do they get the gum from, unless Neville brings it in each time he visits. I suppose a DE could work at St. Mungo's and makes sure they always have a supply, seeing as nobody knows who all the DE's are. I do hope Neville finds a cure, it is mentioned a few times (cant remember how many i dont have the books handy) that Herbology is Neville's best subject and things arent usually repeated unless there is a reason.

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scoop2172000 - Jan 11, 2005 6:55 am (#370 of 522)

I wonder whether the hospital staff gives Alice Longbottom the Droobles because it causes some sort of recognition reaction in her, bringing her out of her catatonia. Maybe she gets the gum as part of the treatment being used to try to restore her sanity.

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Miccaya - Jan 19, 2005 1:40 pm (#371 of 522)

But even if it is wouldn't they only use it once, find out it doesn't work, and then try something else.

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David H. Hessler - Jan 20, 2005 11:02 am (#372 of 522)

Personally, I think the Longbottoms represent one of the fundamental limitations of magic -- a wizard is still mortal. In addition, meeting the Longbottoms really develops Neville's character. As the old adage says, if it quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, then it's probably a duck. In the fourth and fifth books, it's clear that J.K. Rowling finally took the time to really develop the characters. In particular, we became to see their faults surface. For Harry, it was "playing the Hero;" for Ron, it was always feeling second. However, unlike Harry or Ron, we always knew Neville's main faults: forgetfulness and no self-esteem. By meeting the Longbottoms, we begin discovered the root of Neville's problems.

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Tomoé - Jan 20, 2005 6:49 pm (#373 of 522)

Back in business
I believe you could be right scoop, Alice did regnonize the gum for what it was, then hospital staff give her more, she then began to interact a bit more with her surounding and began to move around a bit since then.

In GoF, Dumbledore said Neville's parents "do not recognise him", but Alice did recognise Neville as someone special in OoP, maybe her condition improoved since OoP. I suppose Frank is even worse.

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Aurora Gubbins - Jan 24, 2005 4:07 pm (#374 of 522)

We saw Alice follow Neville up the ward to give him the wrapper, we didn't see her give anyone else anything. I think she sees that there is something important about Neville - maybe she still feels the Maternal Bond? Could this be associated with the bond that helped Lily protect Harry? The 'Ancient Magic'?

Wibble

Aurora xx

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Madame Librarian - Jan 25, 2005 9:23 am (#375 of 522)

Duh, I don't know why it's taken me so long to think of this since I realize now how hugely important the theme of motherly love is to JKR. So, yes, Aurora, I believe you've hit the nail on the head there with mothers and ancient magic and the maternal bond being key to what's going on with Harry and Neville.

We know how close Jo was to her mother and how she feels about her kids (now 3 of them, yay!). That's not unusual at all, but I think Jo has used her huge talent to find a way of expressing this strong emotion that would strike a chord in most of us.

We've mentioned this motherly love/magic thing often on various threads, but here with Neville's mum, we see a very subtle and moving version of it. It also reinforces what I now think is one of the major themes (along with "choices," of course) of the series.

The big problem with this is Tom's mother. It seems as though her actions were motivated by a strong love for her baby, but since we only have Tom's/Voldemort's telling of the story, we can't know absolutely. Anyhow, that's for a different thread.

Ciao. Barb

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Elanor - Feb 24, 2005 1:51 pm (#376 of 522)

A thought just occured to me and I thought I would post it here. On other threads, there were discussions about "emotional magic", the kind of magic a kid can perform without knowing what he is doing really. Now, the Longbottoms are ill but they are still wizards so, logically, they should be able to perform some kind of "emotional magic" too, if they felt angry or scared enough, couldn't they?

I know there is no way of knowing that for now but it could become a possibility for the next books' plots. What if they witnessed a situation in which Neville was in danger, would it be possible this situation make them react and perform that kind of magic?

Any thoughts?

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dizzy lizzy - Feb 24, 2005 2:11 pm (#377 of 522)

There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Quite possible. It is also why they are in St Mungo's. So that the healers can contain any leakage of "emotional magic" that they do.

The bit that concerns me is that they still have a grain of self awareness deep inside them and they are aware to a certain extent that things are wrong with them. But the rest of the brain is so damaged they can't fix it themselves.

Emotions such as anger and fear are pretty primitive emotions, so you would logically think that Frank and Alice can feel these things. It might take them a while to work up to it though??

Lizzy

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Meanie Mom - Feb 24, 2005 3:51 pm (#378 of 522)

I have always wondered about the trial after the Longbottoms were tortured. Dumbledore said "Unfortunately, the Longbottoms' evidence was -given their condition- none too reliable." UK GOF CH30, p. 524.

What evidence? Who were they implicating? I still feel Fudge is dodgier than he appears. He tried to spread word in OOTP that Dumbledore was losing his grip and Harry Potter was a delusional maniac. Fudge also doesn't seem above overriding the justice system to suit his needs.

Also, Fudge was the first person on the scene when Sirius was captured after the street blast. He could have easily revised the situation to suit himself.

I still get hung up on these two things each time I read the books and think there is something there I just cannot put my finger on. Mary Kay

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Madame Librarian - Feb 24, 2005 4:11 pm (#379 of 522)

I think it was the reason Lucius never got nailed in that trial. The Longbottoms could have cowered and shuddered, or reacted in some primal way when his name was mentioned (because he was there along with the LeStranges), but somehow his defense was that they could not ID him without reasonable doubt (assuming some elements of English common law were observed in Wizarding court). Now, how was it that they could convict the LeStranges (wasn't there someone else, too)? Does anyone remember the details?

Another thing that bothers me about them is the picture we get of Alice as the loving mother who somehow struggles out of her sad condition to respond to Neville with her touching (sniff) gestures of love through the gum wrappers. Even if they are simply attempts at crucial communication--assuming a mental condition that's not quite what it seems to us--Alice's personality seems somehow more fleshed out that Frank's. JKR is being vague about Frank. Why?

Granted we learn some bits from Gran--about how brilliant a Wizard Frank was. Gran seems to be vague about Alice. Why?

This all just strikes me as fishy. Can't put my finger on it.

Now, here's the thing (proving that my mind makes suspicious leaps of illogic sometimes): JKR has also been very stingy with details on James and Lily. More so on James. We meet him as a teen when he's a egotistical jerk, but not as an adult and dad. Lily we hear a bit more about (from Lupin's scene with Harry in PoA). Between the two sets of parents, Longbottoms and Potters, I find this scarcity of detail, especially for Frank and Alice quite odd.

Sorry for the ramble.

Ciao. Barb

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Meanie Mom - Feb 24, 2005 9:34 pm (#380 of 522)

I agree Madame Librarian, I am still bothered by this whole element in the stories. I really feel there is more to this. Neville and his Mum, the bubble gum wrappers, visiting over the holidays, it is so sad.

I think that is why Neville keeps to himself at school. He is liked well enough, its not like the other kids try to avoid him. But he realizes that there are more important things than school/social life.

Why don't we have some backstory on Frank and Alice, except that they were Aurors and very popular in the WW? We need more information on Lily and James too. How did each couple defy Voldemort 3 times? Each couple, 3 times?? What was happening?

Why is each couple's son left bereft in the world? There must be more of a connection. I must go read some more.

Mary Kay

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Phoenix song - Feb 24, 2005 10:51 pm (#381 of 522)

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Meanie Mom, I think that you're asking the questions that we all need answers to! I take comfort in JKR's statement that the next books will be about providing answers. There are SO many questions that abound through this series, particularly about Neville and Harry's connection. And we really need to know what actually did happen that night in Godric's Hollow, because I don't think that we've gotten the full story yet. I have all of my fingers crossed, Hermione style, that we will get the answers about the Potters and the Longbottoms come July 16th.

Barbie

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Mr. Tibbles - Mar 23, 2005 6:38 pm (#382 of 522)

Personally, I believe that they were tortured a LOT because a lot of Death Eaters are merciless and would torture anyone until they were almost dead. The Longbottoms would never join the Death Eaters.

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Puck - Mar 23, 2005 8:05 pm (#383 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Crouch Jr. was there that night, too. That's who the info was sketchy on, whether he was participating, or happened to in the wrong place/wrong time. (We now know he was very guilty.)

We have seen that science evolves in the WW just as it does in the muggle world. Lupin only recently got his wolfbane potion, as it was not yet invented during his school years. I can see Neville being the one to discover a way to help is parents, perhaps somehow using his new plant. Currently, not even magic can cure them. JKR seems to drive that home, that even magic can't solve everything.

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MickeyCee3948 - Mar 23, 2005 9:49 pm (#384 of 522)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Why would they torture them and not kill them? They definitely don't have a problem with killing plenty of other members of the order. I just have to think that there is alot more to the attack than we have been privy to.

Mikie

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Puck - Mar 24, 2005 9:22 am (#385 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
After the AK backfired at Voldemort, they may have simply been afraid to use it. Plus, they were trying to get information, so a quick kill wouldn't have done them much good. And I believe they delight in seeing pain in their victims eyes.

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Madame Librarian - Mar 24, 2005 10:35 am (#386 of 522)

Uh oh, hang on here for my elaborate explanation (and probably whacko theories...well, maybe not) as to why the Longbottoms were left insane but not dead. Here's my list of possibles--

1)--the DEs were interrupted mid-session and had to disapparate fast.

2)--someone who until that time was not even proven guilty (someone like Lucius Malfoy) was with them, and stopped them from actual murder in order to be able to look people in the eye and swear he'd never kill for a cause, or some such statement. Lucius (or whoever) would go only so far at that time in DE activity. After all, there was a reputation to maintain.

3)--they felt the surviving but heartbreakingly destroyed couple served as a better example of what lengths the DEs were willing to go to than two dead bodies.

4)--there was a chance that the Longbottoms would not be left insane and would therefore be a source of information in the future.

Ciao. Barb

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Ponine - Mar 24, 2005 6:12 pm (#387 of 522)

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I particularly appreciate number one and three, madame, but I really do find Mickey's question an interesting one, particularly as the trials give the impression that the Longbottoms were able to say something, if vague and not too helpful, about who did it, hence posing a real threat to their perpetrators... Thus, I do not think that they chose to leave them alive, but were forced to for some reason.

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Ydnam96 - Mar 25, 2005 9:05 am (#388 of 522)

I think that the DE's really believed that the Longbottoms had information that they wanted. Killing them would make that information unattainable. So they may just keep them alive in hopes that one day they can reach the info they want.

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MickeyCee3948 - Mar 25, 2005 10:41 am (#389 of 522)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Any information they got now would be at least 15 years old and its value would be very questionable.

It has also been shown how easy it is to "get at" a patient in the hospital so I still don't understand their reluctance to finish them off other than possibly prolonging their misery. I can't see Bella not wanting to get at the persons responsible for her imprisonment in Azkaban.

Mikie

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Puck - Mar 26, 2005 8:44 am (#390 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
But the Longbottoms technically aren't the ones responsible. They couldn't testify. Someone else showed up, someone else caught them. That is who she will go after, the thing is, who?

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Tomoé - Mar 26, 2005 9:24 am (#391 of 522)

Back in business
What about Uncle Algie, the root of all Evil? ^_~

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fleur-de-lys - Mar 28, 2005 7:18 am (#392 of 522)

Ok, help me out, please. Who is Uncle Algie? Is that a stupid question? You'll probably answer and I'll bonk myself on the head and say "DUH!!!!!!!!!!" Anyway, I think it says somewhere that the Longbottoms were tortured because it was thought that they knew, or had information on, where Voldy was after his demise the night he tried to AK Harry. We know he disappeared and we now know a bit of where he's been. But the DE's didn't know where he was at that time and I believe they were torturing the Longbottoms to get info about hie whereabouts. If I am correct in this, is would seem that the DE's then knew that Voldy wasn't dead (which is probably something for another thread) and certain people in the Wizarding community knew, or thought, that as well. As for why they've been kept alive since then, haven't really thought about that yet. These are just some humble theories and probably incorrect. I think a lot of us are going to be surprised and humbled by the next two books. I know I will be and I can't wait!

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Steve Newton - Mar 28, 2005 7:25 am (#393 of 522)

Librarian
Uncle Algie is Neville's uncle. Gave him the mimbulus mimbletonia, I think, dropped him to see if he bounced. Fun stuff. Some suspect that he might be a DE, or, at least, evil. I don't agree but haven't given him much thought.

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Puck - Mar 28, 2005 8:34 am (#394 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Tomoe (sorry don't know how to do the accent over the e), do you mean Uncle Algie is the one who caught the Lestranges, or that he was on on the turture?

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fleur-de-lys - Mar 28, 2005 10:53 am (#395 of 522)

Thanks, Steve. After I asked, I firgured that's who it was. That's interesting, it being thought he might be a DE. I never got that impression, but I never got a lot of impressions until I started reading the Lexicon.

If Uncle Algie is the one who showed up and caught them, he may have a bit more info on the depth and nature of their illness (or lack there of) and, hence, why he gave Neville the plant, if that will factor in eventually. Oh, the possibilities.

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Mattew Bates - Mar 28, 2005 6:32 pm (#396 of 522)

“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
I'd like to expand upon the idea that the Longbottoms were attacked for information about the prophecy. As it only partially relates to the Longbottoms and their illness, I'll be crossposting it.

First off, given how much Moldy Voldy wanted to know the full prophecy in OotP, it's a safe bet that he wanted to know the rest back in '81, too. He was willing to act without knowing it all back then, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't still seeking it out. So, While trying to destroy "the one with the power to destroy the dork lard," he had some Death Eaters trying to dig up the rest of the prophecy. When Voldy became Vapormort, They may have taken the first opportunity to try to complete this task by seeking out someone who knew likely knew the prophecy - the Longbottoms. (the Potters were dead, and Albus and Trelawney at Hogwarts are a harder target than Aurors). It's not that they were trying to get the location of the Dark Lord from them directly, they were hoping that the rest of the prophecy would give them a clue of how to contact their fallen master. At this point, it doesn't even matter if the Longbottoms know the full prophecy or not - just that the Death Eaters think they do.

Similarly, Even if Voldy wasn't as desperate to know the rest back in the day, the one who overheard the prophecy would be able to work out who the candidates of the prophecy were. Even if they hadn't had the task of finding the rest of the prophecy before, they still probably thought it might lead them to their master. So then, they share what prophecy info that they have with others they trusted. In short, I think that one of the Death Eaters imprisoned for the crime of attacking the Longbottoms was the one who overheard part of it to begin with.

Either because the Longbottoms would not, or could not (another Fidelus?), release information about the prophecy, they were driven insane by the torture.

Having since learned from his mistakes, OotP Voldy wanted the full prophecy before acting publicly again. Since he doesn't have it yet, he still may be tentative to act, and will likely still focus his actions on getting the rest of the prophecy. Because he still fears Albus, HBP Voldy's focus should turn to either kidnapping Trelawney or prying it out of Harry's mind through their connection.

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Puck - Mar 28, 2005 8:40 pm (#397 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think it has been stated by JKR that the Lestranges did not know about the prophecy. However, Crouch Jr. was with them. I bet HE knew, being the most loyal (according to Voldy). Crouch may have told the Lestranges they wanted info about his whereabouts, without mentioning the prophecy. I can see him thinking at the time the whole prophecy thing was between himself and the Dark Lord. I'm not even sure if Wormtail knew why he was after the Potters.

Now that he is out in th open, can Voldy really afford to use so much caution? I agree he may still want the prophecy, but I doubt that will hold him back.

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Steve Newton - Mar 29, 2005 8:37 am (#398 of 522)

Librarian
fleur, I also thought that the evidence that Algie was a DE was a tad skimpy. But people have said it.

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Madame Librarian - Mar 29, 2005 10:13 am (#399 of 522)

This should also be x-posted probably, but I got the impression that not very many knew that there even was a prophecy--Sibyll (well, she did know...um, sort of), DD, the eavesdropper, and Voldemort. Beyond that we are just speculating as to others who might know. They would include:

James and Lily--in hiding, but already prime targets for Voldemort and the DEs, which is a good enough reason to be underground.

Longbottoms--same as above.

DEs--all or some of Voldemort's inner circle.

Wait! Does anyone remember if there's canon text that DD did tell the Potters? If so, that's two more to the list we're sure of. Ditto then for the Longbottoms. But I can think of many good reasons that Voldemort would not want his cronies just yet to know about the prophecy. He might have wanted to present the resolution of it as a fait accompli.

I think the Longbottoms were tortured to find out where Voldemort was hiding. His DEs were unwilling to believe the reports that he had been destroyed.

Ciao. Barb

Edit--A nasty type changed the meaning of a key sentence. Now fixed!

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fleur-de-lys - Mar 29, 2005 11:04 am (#400 of 522)

I knew it was somewhere and I just found it. On GoF, Chapter 30 (pgs 594-594 hardback), The Pensieve, Harry is in DD's memory of the trial of the four accused, it doesn't seem to say exactly who they were at this time. Crouch is beginning the procedings of the trial by stating what they are accused of.

He says "The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror--Frank Longbottom--and subjecting him to the Cruciatus Curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named--" It breaks off for Barty, Jr.'s pleading. Then Crouch resumes to say "You are further accused of using the Cruciatus Curse on Frank Longbottom's wife, when he would not give you information. You planned to restore He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named to power, and to resume the lives of violence you presumable led while he was strong."

I take from that passage that the prophecy never came into play in the torture of the Longbottoms. Any theories linking the prophecy with the torture would be complete speculation. True, we don't know the story behind the story, and I'm sure we'll find out one day, but right now, we can safely say that the Longbottoms were tortured for their knowledge of Voldy's whereabouts. Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible.

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 401 to 450)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:37 am

Mattew Bates - Mar 29, 2005 2:05 pm (#401 of 522)
“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
That's the thing that always bugged me, fleur-de-lys, even before I knew about the prophecy. Why would several Death Eaters, either exonerated or never accused, risk attacking Aurors on a rumor that they might have information about Voldemort's whereabouts? And why those particular Aurors?

The Death Eaters must have believed that the Longbottoms had special information. As of this point, the only thing JKR has given us that makes the Longbottoms seem more likely than anyone else to have information on Voldemort is that their son could have fulfilled the prophecy. We also know that the eavesdropper loyal to Voldemort overheard enough of the prophecy to point to the Potters and the Longbottoms. Maybe I am grasping at straws by connecting these Canon facts, but in my mind they dovetail nicely. I try to keep my speculation Canon-based.

Madam Librarian, I still think it isn't necessary that either the Potters or the Longbottoms knew anything other than the existence of the prophecy. The only thing necessary for this theory to hold water is that this group of Death Eaters believed the Longbottoms knew more of the prophecy than they did. This would be all the more reason for the Longbottoms to go insane - they were being tortured to reveal information that they did not possess.

Puck - my first instinct was Crouch, too, but I couldn't remember a good reason why it couldn't be Bellatrix, either.

One more counterpoint, fleur-de-lys. I'm pretty sure that, because the prophecy was priviledged information, Crouch Sr. would not announce its existence at a public trial.

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Ponine - Mar 29, 2005 2:56 pm (#402 of 522)

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Barb - I agree with you. I don't think that LV would be very interested in sharing with his pawns that there was a toddler out there who could off him. It just messes with your image as the biggest and baddest.

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fleur-de-lys - Mar 30, 2005 6:39 am (#403 of 522)

Matthew, I just looked back over GoF to see more about Voldy and the DEs that tortured the Longbottoms and found several passages interesting. First off, a bit firther on in the trial Harry sees in DD's pensieve (GoF, Chapter 30, The Pensieve, pgs 595-596 hardback), as Bella (thought it doesn't say her name) is led from the room, she calls

"The Dark Lord will rise again, Crouch! Throw us into Azkaban; we will wait! He will rise again and will come for us, he will reward us beyond any of his other supporters! We alone were faithful! we alone tried to find him!"

I think this outburst from her shows how truly loyal she was to Voldy. She must have had a reason for that loyalty, to believe so strongly that he would come back. Then I found later in the book, in the graveyard scene, something Voldy said himself. This is found in GoF, chapter 33, The Death Eaters, pg. 648, hardback.

Voldy says' "And the I ask myself, but how could they ahve believed I would not rise again? they, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death? The, who had seen proofs of the immensity of my power in the times when I was mightier than any wizard living?"

We know that Voldy took certain measures to ensure he couldn't die, and from this passage, we also know that the DEs were privy to this info. I'm not sure why these paricular DEs went after the Longbottoms to find him. Perhaps they were just that much more loyal, and didn't feel they needed to save face. Perhaps they were overly confident that they could find and restore Voldy without getting caught. How many people, throughout history, have been imprisoned, persecuted and even killed for a cause or belief that they felt so strongly about that they were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice? Quite a few. That could, very probably, be the case here. They were willing to sacrifice anything, because they believed so strongly that Voldy would come back, and they were right.

Now the real quesiton is, why did these DEs believe the Longbottoms had info on Voldy's whereabouts. We know the Longbottoms were Aurors, but I can't seem to recall any info as to why they would have that info. Unless I'm missing something, which is quite likely.

Also, a good counterpoint, but do we know that Wizard trials were public? I can't remember reading anything about whether the prceedings were like Muggle trials or not. That doesn't meant that its not in there. Again, it could just be something I missed. But very true that the prophecy wouldn't be revealed at the trial. So, you may be entirely right. Just another point for speculation and theories.

I agree, Ponine, that it could mess with Voldy's image to have the prophecy out there among his pawns, but perhaps, if he did divulge the info to anyone, it was presented in a way that said, "Hey, there was, or is going to be, a child born that could eventually snuff me. You know, when he's old and I'm still around cuase of all the stuff I did to keep me alive and he's learned all he can about magic. But wouldn't it be better if we just got him now? While he's still a helpless baby?" Not necessarily in those exact words, of course. That way, it reveals the prophecy to his supporters, but doesn't make a toddler look like a threat to him, but an easy target.

Sorry this is so long, i just had a lot to say, as usual.
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fleur-de-lys - Mar 30, 2005 11:33 am (#404 of 522)

Hey, Steve, do you remember the evidence for Uncle Algie being a DE? I did a search on him, but didn't really find much by way of him being a possibly DE. I was just wondering what had been said.

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Puck - Mar 30, 2005 12:11 pm (#405 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Do you think that eprhaps after torturing them ione of the DE shot a quick memory charm at the Longbottoms just as whoever showed up to stop the torture? Remember how this was done on the sly to Marietta in DD office? And perhaps young Neville caught a piece of it.

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Steve Newton - Mar 30, 2005 2:25 pm (#406 of 522)

Librarian
fleur, me? Remember? Not a chance. I'll have to scout around and get back to you.

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fleur-de-lys - Mar 30, 2005 3:00 pm (#407 of 522)

Thanks Steve, appreciate the thought. I know what you mean about remembering. That's why I often say in a post "unless i'm missing or forgetting something, which is entirely possible." Its amazing how fast the mind goes.

Puck, that's an interesting theory. I'm just wondering about the Longbottoms' magical astuteness (sp?) and talent. I know that Grandmom Longbottom refers to what wonderful Aurors they were in OoP when she meets the trio in the hospital at Christmas. Marietta is just a student, where the Longbottoms are very accomplished Aurors. I think it would be easier to hit a student than an accomplished adult. However, after typing that, I have realized that it would be very easy to hit them once they had been tortured into insanity. What if they weren't tortured into insanity, but someone was able to hit them with memory charms and that's why they're considered permantly injured. Maybe Neville will come up with a cure for the Obliviate curse (charm? jinx?-i need to read that thread) and cure them and Lockheart. JM2K

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Mattew Bates - Mar 30, 2005 4:43 pm (#408 of 522)

“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
Fleur, I can't verify that all of the trials were public, but Rita Skeeter was at Bagman's trial. The presence of the press suggests that at least that trial was public. That's about as far as I can defend that one.

I agree that the overall goal of the Lestranges & Crouch was to bring back Voldy - my point hinges on why they thought the Longbottoms could help them do it. There, I've said my piece.

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haymoni - Mar 30, 2005 8:12 pm (#409 of 522)

I seem to recall RPS having a great deal to say about Great Uncle Algie.

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Puck - Mar 30, 2005 8:27 pm (#410 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I would love Neville to help cure his parents, but I kind of like Lockhart better the way he is.

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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2005 9:03 pm (#411 of 522)

Back in business
Here's the clue that hint Uncle Algie could be evil:

My Great Uncle Algie kept trying to catch me off my guard and force some magic out of me - he pushed me off the end of Blackpool pier once, I nearly drowned - but nothing happened until I was eight. Great Uncle Algie came round for tea and he was hanging me out the window by the ankles when my Great Auntie Enid offered him a meringue and he accidentally let go. (PS ch7)

The rest is pure speculation, maybe Uncle Algie is just a bit rough, but how can you forgot you're hanging someone out the window? He would have wanted to kill him all these years and he would have done just the same.

Some thinks the freedom seeker toad is a device to get Neville more miserable, some thinks the Mimbulus mimbletonia is pure evil as well, some even thinks Gran Longbottom is as evil as Uncle Algie. We'll see what new canon will get on July, to support or crush down this theory. ^_~

edit: (In my humble opinion, there is likely was he seems to be, but he might be a bad guy after all. I keep the door open even if the chances are rather thin.)

Puck -> Tomoe (sorry don't know how to do the accent over the e), do you mean Uncle Algie is the one who caught the Lestranges, or that he was on on the torture?

(Don't bother with the é, Tomoe is fine). I meant he witnessed the scene and helped to caught the Lestranges, I really don't see him torturing along without getting caught.

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fleur-de-lys - Mar 31, 2005 6:20 am (#412 of 522)

Tomoe, thanks for the insight into Uncle Algie. I feel its a long shot, but if I had read any threads predicting Sirius' death before OoP came out, I would have counted that a long shot to. So, I guess we can't rule anything out with JK, but that's what makes reading the series so fun.

Mattew, sorry about misspelling your name earlier, my sons name is Matthew and it was just a slip. Thanks for reminding me about Rita being at Bagman's trial. That gives substantial evidence to the arguement that trials, atleast some of them, were public, especially with Rita there. Not only would she not keep anything back, but we all know how much she adds to anything she hears. If she was there, or anyone from the press like her, the prophecy would definitely be kept quiet.

Puck, I agree with leaving Lockhart as he is. Its more befitting to his personality.

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Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2005 7:01 am (#413 of 522)

Librarian
fleur, I think my memory of the Algie as a DE is from one of the Galadriel Waters books. I couldn't find it last night but will check aome more tonight. Galadriel says some ludicrous things but gets some things pretty well?

Thanks to Tomoe for the info on Algie.

He is named after pond scum, after all.

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fleur-de-lys - Mar 31, 2005 7:38 am (#414 of 522)

Pond scum, good one, Steve. I'm so glad to find others who are as into Harry Potter and this forum as I am. Friends and family say I'm obsessed, but I don't think so. I start to agree with them when I find myself running to my bookcase for wisdom to impart on the Lexicon (wisdom, HA!). But now that I've seen so many others out there, I'm glad to know they're wrong and I'm not alone.

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Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2005 8:34 am (#415 of 522)

Librarian
Although pond scum is a joke it is green and the color green is everywhere. I wish that I knew what it meant.

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fleur-de-lys - Mar 31, 2005 3:04 pm (#416 of 522)

Me too. I never really noticed it till reading the Lexicon, but it is. I suppose we'll find out. Is there a thread about green? I'll have to see if there is.

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Choices - Apr 2, 2005 6:45 pm (#417 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think Uncle Algie and his gift of Trevor, are hints that Neville, on Uncle Algie's side of the family, may have Merpeople in his back-ground. I desperately hope that in one of the next books, we will see Neville use his knowledge of Herbology and his Mim-Mim to cure the Longbottoms. I think someone at St. Mungo's, probably on Lucius Malfoy's orders, is keeping the Longbottoms in the condition they're in and I hope Neville can help them recover.

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mike miller - Apr 3, 2005 11:41 am (#418 of 522)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Mattew - As far as why DE's would go after the Longbottom's, the fact that they had defied the Dark Lord 3 times (as did James and Lily) probably made them targets.

On the Uncle Algie question, I think this is one of JKR's well placed "red herrings". Check the Mimbulus thread to see that I'm a firm believer that the MM is a good plant in spite of some well thought out theories to the contrary.

I really don't think DD told anyone about the prophesy. I don't think Sybill remembers either. The list is very short in my opinion, DD and Harry (so far - Ron and Hermione will learn soon I think) know the complete prophesy; and, the eavesdropper and Voldemort know part of it. If there was anyone that DD might have told, I think it would have been Minerva. After re-reading her comments at the beginning of SS/PS, I don't think she knows.

Trying to get back on topic, is there an unknown DE working within St. Mungos to keep the Longbottom's in their current mental state is the real question that needs answering.

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Choices - Apr 3, 2005 6:36 pm (#419 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
If there isn't a DE working there, I'm sure Malfoy's money could buy someone willing to do the job of keeping the Longbottoms on the "not improving" list.

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Puck - Apr 7, 2005 6:57 pm (#420 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
In the World Cup chapter of GoF Fudge does comment about the generous donation that Lucious had just made to St. Mungo's. Fudge got him and his family Top Box seats as a token of thanks.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 7, 2005 10:30 pm (#421 of 522)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I think there is alot more than we have been told behind the Longbottoms illness. I agree that either a DE or at least an unscrupelous nurse or physician could be contributing to the situation.

Mikie

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Aurora Gubbins - Apr 8, 2005 3:24 pm (#422 of 522)

Isn't there an idea that magic is not permanent (though I've never read that thread myself)? If it isn't then the Longbottoms illness has to be replenished occasionally. After all, something as powerful as the Elixir of Life has to be taken again and again or else the consumer of the Elixir dies - remember? Lupin has to take his 'medicine' regularly to keep himself Lupin, and so on and so on...

Someone in St M's is definitely up to no good!

Aurora xx

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Puck - Apr 8, 2005 5:59 pm (#423 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
While I do agree that something may be happening behind the scenes at St. Mungo's (I'd like to believe, as it means they can be stopped), I must point out that although magic is not permanent, brain damage can be, not matter the cause.

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Aurora Gubbins - Apr 9, 2005 3:16 pm (#424 of 522)

Ah, yes Puck - I'm reminded of the comment Madam Pomfrey made about the scars left on Ron after the brain attack "thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almot anything else"

Aurora xx

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Moaning Turtle - Apr 18, 2005 4:40 pm (#425 of 522)

I agree with you all about the gum - definately SOMETHING in there, i'm pretty sure, though, thats it's not Lucius. I think that maybe one of the DE's may be included, but possibly one that already does not have as big a part as Lucius, maybe Crabbe's dad?

I have a thread about Neville that you might want to check out, it's to do with the wand thing, i think that his Gran forces him to use his dad's old one, because it could be possible that if Neville had his own wand, he could be very powerful, as the wand chooses the wizard, and not the other way around. Maybe she thinks that if Neville uses his dad's old wand, it will prevent him from doing something within his magical talents that can uncover what is going on with the 'illness'. *i really believe his Gran has a strong part in this*

Do the Longbotoms have anything valuable, like a lot of Galleons or something? In what area of the MOM did Frank work in? Maybe theres a conncetion.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 18, 2005 9:16 pm (#426 of 522)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Wasn't it stated that the Longbottoms were Auror's during the trial? Too late to look it up in my books.

Mikie

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Dr Filibuster - Apr 18, 2005 11:33 pm (#427 of 522)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
Yes, they were both aurors.

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hells456 - Apr 19, 2005 3:28 am (#428 of 522)

I don't think Alice was an Auror, just Frank. They are described as "an Auror - Frank Longbottom" and "Frank Longbottom's wife", no mention that she was an auror too.

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Elanor - Apr 19, 2005 3:39 am (#429 of 522)

In OotP, Neville's grandmother says "They were aurors, you know, and very respected withing the wizarding community,' Mrs Longbottom went on. 'Highly gifted, the pair of them.". So I think we can assume Alice and Franck were both Aurors.

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hells456 - Apr 19, 2005 4:14 am (#430 of 522)

Oops, missed that bit. :-) Thanks

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Moaning Turtle - Apr 19, 2005 2:02 pm (#431 of 522)

So, they were both aurors, that could definately given someone, most likely a DE, reason to keep them insane, as the theory is.

Is there anything in the books about wealth?

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frogface - Apr 20, 2005 1:47 am (#432 of 522)

No there isn't, however I would guess that Auror's are probably paid quite well, espcially in times of war, given the dangerous nature of their jobs. But I don't have anything to base that on.

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Moaning Turtle - Apr 20, 2005 1:45 pm (#433 of 522)

So, they could have something that people (DE's) want, must most likely the fact that they're after them, and they already know too much.

Im going to read the OotP all over again Smile (34th time)

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skh - Apr 25, 2005 3:33 am (#434 of 522)

How about the DE's / Voldie were worried about the prophecy and by having them sequestered in St. Mungo's means that they can't free Neville from the tryanny of Grandma and unleash his potential?! Wild freak thought that just ocurred to me while reading your messages. I do think that the gum is keeping them there and that Alice is trying to reach through the fog to her son...

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Puck - Apr 26, 2005 6:06 am (#435 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Oooh, gum as a magical weapon! Never thought of that one! Very good point.

I don't think they are being kept insane due to the prophecy, as so few knew about it. They might have information though, that the DE don't want leaking out.

Not sure about Longbottoms money. Gran is frugal, though that is not necessarily a sign that she doesn't have money, just that she just see fit to spend it. The DE don't seem motivated by money, anyway. Then again, we don't know how Lucious acquired his wealth, do we? Seems to have a fair amount of free time on his hands.

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fleur-de-lys - Apr 26, 2005 9:43 am (#436 of 522)

Please refresh my memory...do we know who caught the DE's that tortured the Longbottoms and went on trial for it? I can't seem to remember who caught them. But I'm assuming that, since they were caught, put on trial and sent to Azkaban, that someone had to have caught them in the act.

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Tomoé - Apr 26, 2005 12:15 pm (#437 of 522)

Back in business
We don't know the circumstances of the Lestranges catch yet, we don't who did it or how long after Voldemort's fall.

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fleur-de-lys - Apr 26, 2005 12:47 pm (#438 of 522)

That's what I thought. So, I was wondering, along this whole line that their being kept incapacitated, perhaps there was another person, an unknown DE who was torturing them and realized that they weren't going to break, so they "captured" the Lestranges and company. That person (people?) could be keeping them incapacitated because the Longbottoms would know that they were also in on the torture and that they were DE's. Dont' know if this has been discussed before, sorry if it has. It just ran across my mind. Perhaps there is an unknown third party who doesn't want to be found out. Lucius? Snape? I don't quite trust him yet. Or someone else? Just a thought that has popped into my head.

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Puck - Apr 26, 2005 8:31 pm (#439 of 522)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Oooh, don't let Gina catch you saying you don't trust Snape. *grin*

I was actually thinking alongthose lines, Fleur, that someone else didn't want to be mentioned. I doubt Lucius. I think Voldy asked him why he never tried to find him in GoF. I'm guessing it would be someone we don't know or would never think of.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 26, 2005 8:37 pm (#440 of 522)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I believe it could be a healer or nurse at St. Mungo's. They could prescribe the Longbottoms medicine(or gum)and make it look a normal medical necessity.

After all if a DE is hurt in a battle they can't exactly walk into the hospital and give the reason they were hurt. They would need somebody to tend to the injured similar to our lovely Hogwarts nurse.

Mikie

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fleur-de-lys - Apr 26, 2005 9:12 pm (#441 of 522)

Puck, I'll be on the lookout for dungbombs from Gina. Also, I feel that, if we're correct in thinking that the Longbottoms' storyline will be a major part of the upcoming books and they will be cured, I think that whoever is keeping them under wraps will be a shock to us the readers. Not necessarily Snape, but I'm kind of looking forward to the revealing. I'll be cruelly disappointed if their storyline goes nowhere.

Mikie, good point about a DE planted in St. Mungo's or, if not a DE, then someone on the take. Who knows. JK has such a vivid imagination, I really thinkg the sky's the limit.

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Ff3girl - Apr 27, 2005 6:47 am (#442 of 522)

Hm... I'm still not feeling very confident that there's anything going on with the Longbottoms. Does it really make much sense for the DE's to pay money to keep them alive? If the Longbottom's had info that the DE's wanted to hide, I think it would make much more sense to get rid of them. They've had no problem with doing that before.

Of course, there is the gum. ^_~

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Choices - Apr 27, 2005 10:49 am (#443 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Maybe the DE's are not footing the bill. Maybe the Longbottom's had insurance - they did work for the wizard government and were injured by the enemy. Perhaps the Ministry pays for their "treatment". We know Fudge runs the MOM and he is definitely in Lucius Malfoy's pocket and Lucius is a big contributor to St. Mongo's - you add those two things up and you come out with the possibility that the Longbottom's are purposedly being kept from recovering and remembering what was done to them. The medicine that is keeping them quiet may very well be in the gum and Alice is trying to get Neville to notice by giving him the gum wrappers. He has enough to paper his walls - now that's a lot of gum!

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Ff3girl - Apr 28, 2005 6:20 pm (#444 of 522)

Does it really make much sense for the DE's to pay money to keep them alive?

Sorry--what I meant to say here was...

Does it really make sense for the DE's to pay money to keep the Longbottoms insane rather than just killing them? It would make a lot more sense economically (and in terms of the DE behavior) to just kill the Longbottoms.

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Choices - Apr 28, 2005 6:52 pm (#445 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
In reality it would, but then with them dead, there would go a big piece of the plot. Evidently, for the sake of the storyline, it is more prudent for them to live. JKR obviously has plans for them in book 6 or 7. Perhaps we will soon find out why they are being kept alive. As long as they do not appear to be recovering, I think they are safe. Look what happened to Bode when he started to get well - can you say Devil's Snare? It is in their best interests to keep up the insane bit, whether they really are or not.

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Tomoé - Apr 29, 2005 9:55 am (#446 of 522)

Back in business
But why didn't they send a devil's snare to the Longbottoms years ago? Especially if they have to pay to keep them insane.

I watched an episode of Card Captor Sakura the other day and one of the character nail it down perfectly: "I wish we can do eveithing with magic, but there are some things even magic can't do." (Kero-chan, Card Captor Sakura, ep.22)

I think the Longbottoms situation is one of things that even magic can't fix.

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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 29, 2005 1:20 pm (#447 of 522)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Possibly their situation won't change but I just think that JKR keeps mentioning them for more than just a side light.

Why not send devil's snare to the Longbottoms? Perhaps it is because of who else was responsible for their injuries. That person may have be able to come to terms with what they did in the first place.

Mikie

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Ff3girl - Apr 29, 2005 4:50 pm (#448 of 522)

I believe it's possible that the JKR is using the Longbottoms as a literary tool as a "living reminder" of the evils of Voldemort and the Death Eaters. It's one thing to hear that they killed people in the past and it was horrifying and life-shattering. It's another thing to see a friend have to deal with his parents being insane from the DE's torture and feel the pain along with him. You know what I mean?

In other words, I personally believe the Longbottoms are just permanently insane and there's nothing that an be done to cure them or keep them from getting better.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be wonderful if they were able to somehow wake up, because Neville definitely deserves to have his family back. *sniffle sniffle* That "Thanks, Mum." really said it all.

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Choices - Apr 29, 2005 6:25 pm (#449 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
There is no doubt in my mind that they are being kept alive for a reason that will become evident in book 6 or 7. The gum wrappers have been played up too much - even being on JKR's desk - for them to be simply forgotten. If Ludo were here, I'd bet money we will see the Longbottoms again, possibly see them cured, and find out the significance of the gum wrappers.

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Ff3girl - Apr 29, 2005 9:05 pm (#450 of 522)

Well, all there is left to do is wait and see. ^_~

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 451 to 500)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:39 am

Tomoé - May 2, 2005 8:46 am (#451 of 522)
Back in business
There is no doubt in my mind that they lost contact with the reality after a heavily traumatic experience. I don't believe anyone is keeping them insane, their case is just beyond what magic can fix right now. It doesn't mean they won't come back to reality by the end of the story, either by themselves or by some new magic device, but I really don't think they are kept insane through the gums, gum wrappers or the guy who use those gums.

So we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree. ^_~

Edit: or maybe Cruciatus Curse wasn't the only spell use against the Longbottoms that day and they won't be cured until someone found that out.

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Choices - May 2, 2005 8:58 am (#452 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Tomoe' - What is your opinion on the significance of the gum wrappers then? Are Frank and Alice just two crazy people who are massive gum chewers? Since the gum wrappers are all over JKR's desk - is she a massive gum chewer too? Is the gum just a red herring or is JKR trying to tell us something about Frank and Alice and their continued illness?

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fleur-de-lys - May 2, 2005 10:40 am (#453 of 522)

Tomoe, interesting thought about another curse being used. Never thought of that. I am of the strong opinion that they will come back to reality, somehow, sometime. But that's because I'm a sentimental fool. I, too, feel the gum is a bit farfetched, although is it everywhere. But, Tomoe, you've given me mew hope with this other curse idea. Thank you! How would they find out the other curse though?

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Tomoé - May 3, 2005 1:41 pm (#454 of 522)

Back in business
As Choices said, JKR is a good gum chewer, since she gave up on cigarette. So a lot of gum wrappers are handed at her house, a lot of them are trashed, gum wrappers = worthless thing that you can find anywhere.

So, JKR wanted something worthless Gran Longbottom could disregard while Neville would tresaure. It could have been any worthless thing, from kleenexes to tooth pike, she just happen to chose gum wrappers. So the the wrappers were meant to show us Alice, Gran and Neville relationship, without anyone saying it out load (because it wouldn't be in character for any of them).

I glad I convert you fleur-de-lys! ^_^

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GryffEndora - May 7, 2005 5:31 pm (#455 of 522)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
I recently read a theory over on the sugarquill.net that may answer some questions about the significance of the gum wrappers. I don't know that I buy it but I thought I'd share it with everyone since we're discussing the gum wrappers. Snapdragon is the author of the theory on Sugarquill. The theory goes that there is a coded message hidden in the gum wrappers and that it will take many many wrappers to figure the whole message out. It goes on to say that the Longbottoms are planning their escape and Neville must decipher the clues to help them escape. I don't know if I can post the web page or not so if I can't I'm sure a moderator will edit it out. The web address is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] As I said I just wanted to share this since we were discussing the gum wrappers. If I've broken a forum rule I apologize!

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Dumbledore - May 22, 2005 11:47 am (#456 of 522)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I'm going to post an idea that I'm almost certain has been posted before, quite like the random person every once in a while that gets all in a dizzy because they think that they're the first to notice Dumbledore's infamous gleam in book 4. However, I used the search function and couldn't find this particular idea.

In Order of the Phoenix, I was recently re-reading the article reporting Bode's death, and was struck with something that literally made me get out of bed and write it on an index card so I wouldn't forget to post it.

We know that Healer Strout said that she didn't notice that the plant given to Bode was a Devil's Snare, but I didn't really think much of it until I read this article. It says "We have strick guidelines on the decorations permitted on our wards but it appears that Healer Strout, busy over the Christmas period, overlooked the dangers of the plant on Mr. Bodes's bedside table. As his speech and mobility improved, Healer Strout encouraged Mr. Bode to look after the plant himself, unaware that it was not an innocent Flitterbloom, but a cutting of Devil's Snare".

I truly don't see how a healer could possibly be THAT busy that she wouldn't notice a deadly plant in the ward. I can understand that Harry, Ron, or Hermione wouldn't notice it, but I really can't find an explanation why a healer, who is supposed to be extremely qualified and educated with NEWT's in five subjects including HERBOLOGY, wouldn't recognize a Devil's Snare. Doctors are supposed to be prepared for any type of situation, and to not notice something as basic as a Devil's Snare, which the trio learned about in their first year, seems incredibly irresponsible. Add that to the fact that she encouraged Bode to care for the plant..definitely seems like a clever ploy to me by the Death Eaters to place one of their own, a seemingly mother-like type in the ward.

In addition to this, if my theory is indeed correct that Healer Strout is working for Voldy/the Death Eaters (or much more likely, perhaps, is under the Imperius curse) then she could be the one that is keeping the Longbottoms in their terminal state.

Sincerest apologies if this is one of those obvious theories that have already been discussed at great length at Potties more apt to catch these clues than I.

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Choices - May 22, 2005 5:29 pm (#457 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Dumbledore - I like your ideas. It is my belief that St. Mungo's is in Lucius Malfoy's pocket - so to speak. We know he makes huge contributions to the hospital and probably can get just about anything done there that he desires. Slipping a few galleons to some underpaid "healer" and anything is his for the asking. I think the Longbottoms are being kept in their present condition and I think Healer Strout (very close to Sprout isn't it?) was willing to "look the other way" while Bode's plant killed him. Strange things are going on at St. Mungo's and I think they can be traced to Lucius Malfoy and eventually back to Voldemort himself.

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Ydnam96 - May 22, 2005 10:36 pm (#458 of 522)

Not that I don't think it is entirelly possible, or that I don't think it's not probable, but could it be possible that that Healer Strout is just a ditzy nurse type and not really the doctor? I mean, she let what's his name, Lockhart, out of the ward. She doesn't do a rather good job at her job at all really.

She could be in Malfoy's employ...but then again she could just be dense.

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frogface - May 23, 2005 1:57 am (#459 of 522)

Good theory Dumbledore, it had never struck me before but you're right. I have a slightly different theory, those its not as exciting and doesn't really tie in to the Longbottoms (this seems like the best place to post it though).

When Harry and the others go to St Mungo's they stand in line behind an old man who is going to visit Bode. This always struck me as suspicious (I think we're all turning into mini Moody's!) when I read JKR's description of Nott Snr as an elderly widowed death eater. Is it possible that this man was Nott? And that it was he who sneaked Devil's Snare into the ward?

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Netherlandic - May 23, 2005 1:20 pm (#460 of 522)

Good thinking, Frogface, I was wondering over the old man too.

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Madame Pomfrey - May 24, 2005 4:57 pm (#461 of 522)

Nott is described as stooped as is the old man at St Mungos except he has a hearing trumpet.I had been suspicious of the trumpet-Maybe it was transfigured into the Devils Snare once the old man made it past the main desk that is if he got to visit Bode.As for the Longbottoms,I too think they are being kept in their current state by a paid Malfoy henchman and that Neville will find out out about it eventually possibly through the gum wrappers.

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Catherine - May 25, 2005 4:46 am (#462 of 522)

Canon Seeker
I agree that the placement of the Devil's Snare in that ward is suspicious.

Lockhart's mini-"escape" from the locked ward shows that something isn't right. I don't think that Healer Strout is working for Voldemort knowingly, but she could have been "imperioed" into accepting the Devil's Snare, especially if the old man was Nott or another Death Eater in disguise.

Also, Lockhart could have escaped because someone sneaked the Devil's Snare cutting into the ward while Strout was otherwise occupied with the Longbottoms or Bode's visitor (assuming that the visitor was not the perpetrator of the crime).

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MickeyCee3948 - May 27, 2005 8:43 pm (#463 of 522)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Wasn't it suspected that Bertha started acting more strange after being put under the curse by Mr. Couch. Perhaps someone has cursed Healer Strout and that is the reason for her absentmindedness.

Mickey

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Ydnam96 - May 27, 2005 10:50 pm (#464 of 522)

Mickey, that is a good point. It is possible she has been curesed or jinxed, or otherwise meddled with.

I don't think I thought of that.

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haymoni - May 28, 2005 7:07 pm (#465 of 522)

I think we really need to know who the older wizard with the tin horn is.

An imposter? Just an old guy?

Mmmm...

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frogface - May 29, 2005 3:19 am (#466 of 522)

He could just be some old guy, but it struck me odd that JKR chose to have him visiting Bode of all people. And it was then I made the connection between him and Nott Snr, who we know is also elderly and stooped. Also, rather conviniently, Harry has never seen Nott Snr without his mask on. Which means if he were to see his face in somewhere like St Mungo's, he wouldn't recognize him. Do you think I would make Moody proud? Razz

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Madame Pomfrey - May 29, 2005 6:08 am (#467 of 522)

Constant Vigilance,Frogface.

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GryffEndora - May 29, 2005 11:02 am (#468 of 522)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
frogface - I really like the idea that it could have been Nott Sr. visiting Bode.

Ever since GoF I had been waiting to see unspeakables, the Department of Mysteries and specifically Bode & Croaker. When Arthur mentioned them at the Quidditch World Cup I decided they would be seen again. And in OotP we saw Bode, heard about him and then saw him. My GoF prediction colored my vision as I always thought of Bode&Croaker, together, so Bode alone always felt like waiting for the other shoe to drop (but where is Croaker?). I decided Bode's visitor was Croaker with absolutely no evidence. I now am ready to accept that Bode & Croaker are separate people and that maybe someone else was visiting Mr. Bode.

What I don't understand is why would the visitor bring the devil's snare and not give it to Bode himself? We see Healer Strout give Bode the plant that someone sent him. Either the visitor delivered the plant and left without seeing Bode or the visitor and the plant are not connected. I think the former is more likely since we never see Bode with a visitor, but maybe I'm getting the 2 hospital visits confused.

Either way nice theory!

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frogface - May 29, 2005 11:25 am (#469 of 522)

Maybe he transfigured the plant into the hearing trumpet and then switched it with another plant that was already sent by someone else? Constant Vigilence indeed Razz

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Aqualu Nifey - Jun 14, 2005 7:48 pm (#470 of 522)

"So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." - Padme Amidala-Skywalker
If the plant was brought in, The Visitor wouldn't have come to see him to give it to him. I think the man's visit was just to get us thinking about Bode. But how could the nurse bring in the Devil's Snare without it attacking her, too?

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pottermom34 - Jun 15, 2005 7:28 am (#471 of 522)

But how could the nurse bring in the Devil's Snare without it attacking her, too? -- Aqualu Nifey

Or without realizing what it was? I mean I would think a healer would know what Devil's snare was.

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applepie - Jun 15, 2005 8:09 am (#472 of 522)

"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
They definitely should know what it is. Aren't top marks in Herbology required to become a healer?

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Ydnam96 - Jun 15, 2005 10:40 am (#473 of 522)

Yes, I believe that they are. Possibly when the cuttings are small it is hard to tell? Hermione didn't notice...although it wasn't her job to notice...

I think the Nurse was just an incapable person. I mean...she obviously wasn't doing her job very well when Lockhart was wandering outside of the ward.

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Choices - Jun 15, 2005 11:36 am (#474 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think a little of Malfoy's money slipped to her under the table would make her not notice the Devil's Snare. I think Healer Strout works (perhaps indirectly) for Voldemort.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 15, 2005 12:04 pm (#475 of 522)

Or maybe the plant went into the ward as a real Flitterbloom (or whatever it was called), and was switched later. Strout didn't spot it as Devil's Snare, nor the trio, nor anyone else visiting the ward for several weeks.

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Aqualu Nifey - Jun 22, 2005 4:30 pm (#476 of 522)

"So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause." - Padme Amidala-Skywalker
How would it change into a Devil's Snare then? Would someone come in and transform it?

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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 23, 2005 6:00 am (#477 of 522)

A visitor to one of the patients could have come in and swapped the Devil's Snare for the benign plant. We know someone was asking about Bode at the help witch's desk. The dog headed woman has her son visit. Gran and Neville visited the Longbottoms (Neville didn't notice the Devil's Snare either, and he is supposed to be good at herbology). Lockhart got no visitors up to that point, but if someone wanted to get in the ward they could have claimed they came to see him.

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David Breeze - Aug 1, 2005 10:04 am (#478 of 522)

Edited by Aug 1, 2005 10:07 am
At the time that the prophecy was made, nobody was sure who Voldemort was going to go after, Harry or Neville.

We know that the Potters went and hid in Godric's Hollow where they were 'protected' by the fidelious charm, with Peter Pettigrew as Secret Keeper.

At this point, The Longbottoms were in equally as much danger as Voldemort had not decided who to go after. I find it highly likely that The Longbottoms would have gone into hiding as well. They would not risk Neville, who, as a pureblood would have been considered (at the time) the child most in danger.

In that case, somebody must have betrayed The Longbottoms also. Otherwise, they would not have been found by those Death Eaters who tortured them into madness.

I suspect that Neville (Although he was only one at the time) probably knew very deep down the identity of the traitor who gave The Longbottom's hiding place away. That person then cast an overly powerfull memory charm on Neville, thus relieving him of the memory and making him the forgettful boy he is nowadays.

In that case, WHO BETRAYED THE LONGBOTTOMS? Whoever it was, it means that the order has an unknown traitor who is right in Voldemort's pocket.

I have further ideas on my theory, but if I was to post them, it would be a spoiler for HBP.

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Weeny Owl - Aug 1, 2005 10:43 am (#479 of 522)

The Longbottoms weren't attacked until after Voldemort disappeared. The reason they were attacked was that Bella and Company were looking for Voldemort. By the time he was gone, people were probably getting back to their normal lives, and the Longbottoms probably felt that they and their son were no longer in danger. There didn't have to be anyone betraying them since Voldemort had been taken care of by Harry.

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Deb Zawacki - Aug 4, 2005 6:37 pm (#480 of 522)

Could it be that Neville's Gran is actually sending Neville things--like the remembrall which actually works in reverse-- things to keep the charm memory active

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deletedaccount - Sep 18, 2005 2:48 pm (#481 of 522)

Did many people actually know about the prophecy? Maybe the Potters didn't even know about the prophecy?

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Berty Bott - Sep 21, 2005 9:23 am (#482 of 522)

I think there is a connection with the Longbottoms being insane and Neville forgetting things a lot. I think he was there when they were tortured and someone put a memory charm on him so he would forget. So now he has a memory issue similar to Bertha's.

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Phlegm452 - Sep 22, 2005 11:04 am (#483 of 522)

Will the Longbottoms illness go away once Bella, her husband and his brother get their cummupance? The freezing charm DD put on Harry in HBP went away when he died. Of course, Crouch Jr. had his soul sucked out of his body, does that count as death?

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Steve Newton - Sep 22, 2005 11:14 am (#484 of 522)

Librarian
I never got the impression that the Longbottom's mental illness was a spell. It was their response to the torture.

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Choices - Sep 22, 2005 6:02 pm (#485 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, it was their response to the torture, but I think something is keeping them from getting better.

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Esther Rose - Sep 23, 2005 9:13 am (#486 of 522)

Choices that kind of reminds me of Buffy the Vampire Slayer during the Glory season. (Season 5?) Where Glory, in order to stay alive would take energy/memory or whatever from her victims and as a result the victims go insane.

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Phlegm452 - Sep 23, 2005 9:37 am (#487 of 522)

I agree, something is preventing the Longbottom's from getting better. The Devil's Snare was sent because Bode was getting better right?

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haymoni - Sep 28, 2005 6:19 am (#488 of 522)

I just can't help but think that the Longbottoms are our example of "Magic can't cure everything". I want them to get better, but sometimes things just don't work out.

I wonder if Neville is forgetful because he just has so much on his mind.

He has 2 sick parents, Professor Snape, a grandmother who thinks he is nothing, a family who wants to "test" him, Professor Snape, a secret that he's keeping (his parents are in the psych ward), he's at the school where his parents obviously did well, Professor Snape, too much is expected of him, - he has a lot to contend with. No wonder he loses things left and right!

It makes my head spin just thinking about it all!

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Pamzter - Oct 11, 2006 12:50 pm (#489 of 522)

Frank and Alice Longbottom

The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror - Frank Longbottom - and subjecting him to the Cruciatus curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master ... You planned to restore He Who Must Not Be Named to power, and to resume the lives of violence you presumably led while he was strong.

Now maybe I am just dense but reading this quote as a stand-alone (as quoted on another thread) it seems strange to me (and I can't research as I only own the last three books).

Why would the Death Eaters think that the Longbottoms would know where Voldy was? If Frank and Alice did know, wouldn't one assume they would have turned him in?

And it just dawns on me that the quote only refers to Frank - what about Alice?

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Regan of Gong - Oct 10, 2006 6:37 pm (#490 of 522)

Self declared doctor of everything.
Well, the aurors did have a rough idea, I think they knew he was in Albania somewhere. They were also quite mad and irrational.

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Choices - Oct 10, 2006 6:49 pm (#491 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Aurors had been sent to search for Voldemort, so I think the DE's were grasping at straws in their search for their "Master" and decided perhaps Frank and Alice knew or had heard where Voldemort might be. The DE's were desperate and willing to try any means to find Voldemort.

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juliebug - Oct 10, 2006 7:07 pm (#492 of 522)

I think the DE's had a very vague idea of the prophecy. Probably just the fact that LV was going to need to take out the baby of someone who had defied LV three times and was Harry and Neville's age. I think the Lestranges and Crouch Jr were covering all the bases.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 10, 2006 8:22 pm (#493 of 522)

Let it snow!
I don't think Voldemort would've told them about needing to kill a baby -- it makes him sound weak, like he's afraid of a little kid. They may have know, however, that he was looking for a couple who had thrice defied him and who had a baby at the end of July. They probably assumed, though, that he was after the couple instead of their child.

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Choices - Oct 11, 2006 12:50 pm (#494 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree S.E. Jones. I think their main mission was to find Voldemort and they figured perhaps a couple of Aurors might have information since the Aurors had been sent by the MOM to search for Voldemort.

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haymoni - Oct 12, 2006 5:57 am (#495 of 522)

Or they are just sick.

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valuereflection - Oct 12, 2006 9:28 am (#496 of 522)

Haymoni said in Post #488:

"I just can't help but think that the Longbottoms are our example of "Magic can't cure everything". I want them to get better, but sometimes things just don't work out.

I wonder if Neville is forgetful because he just has so much on his mind. He has 2 sick parents, Professor Snape, a grandmother who thinks he is nothing, a family who wants to "test" him, Professor Snape, a secret that he's keeping (his parents are in the psych ward), he's at the school where his parents obviously did well, Professor Snape, too much is expected of him, - he has a lot to contend with. No wonder he loses things left and right! It makes my head spin just thinking about it all!"

It's lots of fun to speculate if Neville was the recipient of a memory charm, who gave it to him and why, and will it eventually wear off. But Haymoni's analysis of Neville's character is also a good explanation for his forgetfulness. There may not have been a memory charm.

Nevertheless, I expect that in Book 7, more secrets will be revealed about Neville's backstory, and he will become a very capable wizard. I am hoping to learn more about his parents.

Frank and Alice's story is so touching, that it is sad to think they may never get better. But I think JKR has shut down hope of the Longbottoms' recovery, because of her answer in her interview on July 16, 2005. I'm surprised that no one has referred to it yet on this thread. Here's the quote:

Melissa Anelli, The Leaky Cauldron: ...What is the significance, if any of the gum wrappers MA: Our next winner question is from Delaney Monaghan, who is 6 years old, via her mother, Vanessa Monaghan. They’re from Canberra, Australia. “What is the significance, if any of the gum wrappers that Mrs. Longbottom keeps giving Neville?”

Emerson Spartz, Mugglenet: Quick, go on the record [with what you think] before she answers —

MA: I think they're a sad mark of an insane woman.

JKR: That was also asked of me this morning. That idea was one of the very few that was inspired by a real event. I was told what, to me, was a very sad story by someone I know about their elderly mother who had Alzheimer's, and the elderly mother was in a closed ward. She was very severely demented and no longer recognized her son, but he went faithfully to visit her twice a week, and he used to take her sweets. That was their point of connection; she had a sweet tooth, she recognized him as the sweet-giver. That was very poignant to me. So I embroidered the story. Neville gives his mother what she wants, and (it makes me sad to think of it) she wants to give something back to him, but what she gives back to him is essentially worthless. But he still takes it as worth something because she's trying to give, so it does mean something, in emotional terms.

But, the theories on the sweet wrappers, are really out there.

ES: You can’t blame them.

JKR: I mean she's not trying to pass him secret messages.

MA: She's not really sane —

JKR: No. You're right. But that's a classic example of, "Let's just shut that one down," because it doesn't really lead anywhere very interesting even if they're wrong.

MA: It's probably one of the most touching moments in the books.

JKR: I think it is important as a character moment.

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Laura W - Oct 13, 2006 12:41 am (#497 of 522)

"The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror - Frank Longbottom - and subjecting him to the Cruciatus curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master ... You planned to restore He Who Must Not Be Named to power, and to resume the lives of violence you presumably led while he was strong." ... And it just dawns on me that the quote only refers to Frank - what about Alice?" (Pamtzer)

The next line Crouch says after that is, "You are further accused of using the Cruciatus Curse on Frank Longbottom's wife, when he wouldn't give you the information."

Which reminds me - as we are on The Longbottoms thread - ... Lexicon lists both Frank and Alice as Aurors. They were both members of the original Order of the Phoenix, because Moody tells us in OoP, but I'm not so sure Alice actually was an Auror. Most of the Order members were not Aurors. Can somebody give me the book canon that specifically states that *both* Neville's parents were Aurors? Thanks. We know that Frank was because of Pamtzer's quote from GoF (The Pensieve chapter), but it doesn't say that Alice was.

As I see it, based on the second passage I quoted above, Alice was tortured because she was the beloved wife of an Auror who the four DEs in question might think would have passed on to her some information about V's possible whereabouts.

Laura

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S.E. Jones - Oct 13, 2006 1:20 am (#498 of 522)

Let it snow!
I thought some character in HBP says they were both Aurors?....

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Laura W - Oct 13, 2006 2:29 am (#499 of 522)

Ok, S.E., I found it. (sheepish grin)

Not in HBP; in OoP, Chapter 23, p.454 (Cdn ed.). "They were Aurors, you know, and very well respected within the wizarding community," Mrs. Longbottom went on. "Highly gifted, the pair of them."

Ironically, Jo kind of contradicts that in GoF, Chapter The Pensieve, where she has Dumbledore tell Harry, "Yes, they were talking about Neville's parents. His father, Frank, was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts ..."

Note, he didn't say to Harry, "Yes, they were talking about Neville's parents. They were Aurors just like Professor Moody." Just that Frank was.

It's almost like Jo had only Neville's father being an Auror in Book Four but then decided in Book Five - speaking through Augusta - that both his parents would be Aurors. Either that or she forgot what she had written re this in the previous book and *thought* she had said they were both Aurors.

Laura

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haymoni - Oct 13, 2006 5:23 am (#500 of 522)

Or maybe Alice was an Auror, but decided to stay home with baby Neville!

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The Longbottoms - what is the secret behind their illness? (Post 501 to 522)

Post  Elanor on Sun May 29, 2011 1:40 am

S.E. Jones - Oct 13, 2006 2:45 pm (#501 of 522)
Let it snow!
I like that explanation, haymoni; if Alice hadn't been working since her son's birth, it would explain why most don't refer to her as an Auror.

Or, maybe Frank is mentioned as being like Moody, because he was much higher ranked than Alice. If her were a top ranking Auror (enough so to be compared to Moody), it would make sense why he would be mentioned and Alice mentioned only as an after thought. Although, I like haymoni's explanation better.

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Laura W - Oct 14, 2006 12:51 am (#502 of 522)

So do I! As a matter of fact, I love it.

I really don't see how the Longbottoms can be cured (tries to remember something about curse wounds being incurable) but I would give ten Galleons if Jo could figure out a way, and Neville could have his loving parents back again whole in mind and body by the end of Book Seven (and Alice and Frank would have each other back, too - and Augusta and her healthy son would be reunited).

(sniff)

Laura

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Die Zimtzicke - Nov 6, 2006 11:02 pm (#503 of 522)

Too bad Jo shut down the gum wrapper theories. Some of them were pretty outlandish, but fun. I don't think the Longbottoms will get cured, although I'm not sure of that, but I do think Neville will do something important to avenge them, or reclaim the family honor, so to speak.

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painting sheila - Nov 7, 2006 10:17 am (#504 of 522)

Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Or get his memory back. I think his memory has been altered so he can't remember some of the more horrible things he witnessed as a baby.

Harry can hear the voices of his parents - what's to say Neville can't. If he could remember, maybe he could help "cure" them.

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S.E. Jones - Nov 7, 2006 5:03 pm (#505 of 522)

Let it snow!
I thought JKR had said they wouldn't end up cured? Or is my brain shorting out again?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 7, 2006 6:08 pm (#506 of 522)

S.E. she said in the interview with Emerson and Melissa that the gum that Alice and Frank wouldn't be cured.

MA: Our next winner question is from Delaney Monaghan, who is 6 years old, via her mother, Vanessa Monaghan. They’re from Canberra, Australia. “What is the significance, if any of the gum wrappers that Mrs. Longbottom keeps giving Neville?”

ES: Quick, go on the record [with what you think] before she answers —

MA: I think they're a sad mark of an insane woman.

JKR: That was also asked of me this morning. That idea was one of the very few that was inspired by a real event. I was told what, to me, was a very sad story by someone I know about their elderly mother who had Alzheimer's, and the elderly mother was in a closed ward. She was very severely demented and no longer recognized her son, but he went faithfully to visit her twice a week, and he used to take her sweets. That was their point of connection; she had a sweet tooth, she recognized him as the sweet-giver. That was very poignant to me. So I embroidered the story. Neville gives his mother what she wants, and (it makes me sad to think of it) she wants to give something back to him, but what she gives back to him is essentially worthless. But he still takes it as worth something because she's trying to give, so it does mean something, in emotional terms.

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haymoni - Nov 8, 2006 7:17 am (#507 of 522)

S.E. Jones - I remember that too, but I don't think it was from the Melissa/Emerson interview.

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Laura W - Nov 9, 2006 3:23 am (#508 of 522)

And in "Christmas on the Closed Ward" (OoP), the motherly-looking Healer at St. Mungo's in the ward where the Longbottoms were (Spell Damage on the fourth floor) told the trio, "This is our long-term residents' ward. For permanent spell damage, you know."

Well, I don't know what "permanent" means to you, but it sounds very much like "incurable" to me. Which doesn't mean that a cure won't possibly be discovered in the future - look at Wolfsbane Potion -, but just that there is no cure to date. But it does kind of look like Jo is warning us that the brave and good Longbottoms will not be whole again.

Laura

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painting sheila - Nov 12, 2006 9:37 pm (#509 of 522)

Doing one of the things I love best . . .
I wonder if they have memories stored some where. Do you think those people that were fighting Voldemort from the beginning and, knew how dangerous it was, may have taken some of their most precious memories to save for their children and other loved ones?

How wonderful for Harry and Neville if they could view their own births or christenings through the memories of their parents.

The parents Longbottoms would not be healed in that situation, but Neville might be.

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Pinky Prime - Dec 4, 2006 1:30 pm (#510 of 522)

When the MoM first captured Barty Crouch Jr. I thought he was named as only one of five people who tortured the Long Bottoms. I believe that they wanted to use the imperious curse first to spy on the OoTP. Or even the Potters themselves!

It would be a combination of both unforgivables and their own retaliatory spells that keep them in the mental state they are in. Almost like mixing 2 poisons together to produce a unique effect. Also coming from a number of DE's that were present there has to be a lingering curse left in them. I hope to see some spark of memory from them before the series closes. Sad sad sad!!!

This new "poison" curse created by both unforgivables has me thinking "If you don't know the curse you won't know the cure".

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Laura W - Dec 5, 2006 2:43 am (#511 of 522)

Pinky, just a slight correction, if you don't mind. According to The Pensieve chapter of GoF, *four* people were tried and found guilty of torturing the Longbottoms: the three Lestranges and Barty Jr.

(Crouch, Sr): "The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror - Frank Longbottom - and subjecting him to the Cruciatus curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master, He Who Must Not Be Named -. ... You are further accused of using the Cruciatus curse on Frank Longbottom's wife, when he would not give you information."

Also, could you please give me canon where it says that the DEs used the Imperius Curse - as well as Crucio, which we already know about - on the Longbottoms? I honestly cannot remember that part, but I could have forgotten. If they used two curses on them at more-or-less the same time, your theory is intriguing and brings in a new element. I just don't see a second Unforgivable being used.

Also, is there any canon which even vaguely indicates that the Longbottom's retaliatory spells added to them losing their minds? It's a fascinating theory, but I cannot remember reading anything to that effect either. (scratching head)

Apparently, enough Crucio'ing - I never know exactly how to write that - will do it on its own. Remember the conversation between Neville and Bellatrix in the Department of Mysteries in OoP?

" 'Longbottom? Why I have had the pleasure of meeting your parents, boy.' ... 'No, let's see how long Longbottom lasts before he cracks like his parents.' ... '*Crucio*!' " (Bella, p.706, Cdn. ed.)

Of course, this is horribly true in the so-called real world too, where people have always been tortured into insanity - mumbles the words "Amnesty International" under breath - , and there is still so much Muggle healers do not know about repairing the mind. That is what I believe Jo was mirroring with the Longbottom case.

Laura

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Choices - Dec 5, 2006 12:34 pm (#512 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
BTW, there is a fascinating little film (starring Rickman) made for Amnesty International called Closet Land - it has to do with torture of political prisoners.

I have always thought that only the Cruciatus curse was used on the Longbottoms. We have no canon proof that they retaliated or fought the DE's in any way. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I have always pictured the DE's storming into the home, taking the Longbottoms by surprise and then torturing them into insanity with the Cruciatus curse - possibly with Neville present. When they finished with Alice and Frank, extracting no information about Voldemort's whereabouts, they performed a memory modification on Neville just to be sure he could not one day tell who they were. Just my take on it.

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Laura W - Dec 6, 2006 2:27 am (#513 of 522)

Really, Choices? Well, my opinion of Alan Rickman just went up a notch or two.

I wonder if Neville's parents will even be in Book Seven. I mean, Jo has so much to clear up already.

Of course, *we* want every detail about everything that has happened from Tom Riddle's birth in 1926 until 1998 (ie - when Book Seven will end) and *we* want every backstory on every single character mentioned in the first six novels, but *we* are a bit ... (I won't finish that sentence for fear of offending anybody - smirk!). Jo couldn't possibly do that.

Dumbledore says that the Longbottoms were well-loved and well-respected in the WW, and we know that what happened to them was done while they were fighting horrible evil and, just to tug further at the heartstrings, we all love and feel deeply sorry for brave little Neville. So, of course, we'd like to hear all the details of the courageous battle the Longbottoms put up - do we have an exact timeline on when that took place, by the way? -, and we hope against hope that they will somehow get well in Book Seven.

Being realistic, however, I just wonder how much ink Jo will give them with everything else on her plate.

laura

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CrotonaPark44 - Jun 8, 2007 2:29 pm (#514 of 522)

I don't think this is in canon, but does anyone have any thoughts about why the Lestranges & Barty Jr. stopped torturing the Longbottoms but did not kill them?

Did Aurors burst into the room and arrest the four Death Eaters before they had time to finish off the job?

The Death Eaters killed many Order members during Vold War I. The Longbottoms seem to be the only Death Eater victims who were left alive but permanently damaged.

And ideas on this?

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M A Grimmett - Jun 15, 2007 9:43 am (#515 of 522)

I hadn't thought about it, but that's a heck of an interesting question, CrotonaPark.

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Madam Pince - Jun 15, 2007 1:08 pm (#516 of 522)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Very good question.

Perhaps they thought they were dead, and just left them for dead, but it turned out the couple survived.

We know that both Bellatrix and Barty, Jr. are/were focused on being Voldemort's "most loyal servant." They don't seem interested in thinking for themselves, just carrying out their master's wishes. So would there have been any reason that Voldemort would've commanded that the Longbottoms should not be killed?

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Choices - Jun 15, 2007 5:54 pm (#517 of 522)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I doubt Voldemort knew about the questioning of the Longbottoms since he had been recently reduced to vapor form and was no where to be found - hence the questioning of the Longbottoms.

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Madam Pince - Jun 15, 2007 7:03 pm (#518 of 522)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
No, but would he have issued some sort of standing order before he became Vapor-Mort?

Something along the lines of "I'm not sure which one of these two kids is going to be the big problem for me, so don't anyone dare to kill the parents in case I need to use them someday to locate the kid." (I mean, obviously Lord Voldemort would never reveal such a weakness as "I'm not sure" to his underlings, but you get the idea...)

He must not have planned to keep them alive long, because clearly he killed James and Lily, but he chose to handle that job himself. He may not have trusted the decision "kill / not kill" to anyone but himself.

This isn't real strong evidence, I realize -- I'm just throwing some thoughts out there to toss around to answer the question that was posed.

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totyle - Jun 20, 2007 12:18 am (#519 of 522)

Choices, I agree. I doubt too that Voldemort knew about the Longbottoms being questioned or had ordered it. I read somehwere (I think The RedHen) that it could have been Frank Longbottom at GH witnessing Voldermort becoming Vapormort, so the remaining DEs ended up crucioing husband and wife in their attempt to find out what actually happened to their BIG BOSS. Not that it was on any orders from Voldemort, but just the DEs acting on their own after Voldemort disappeared. I think this is very plausible.

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totyle - Jun 21, 2007 12:59 am (#520 of 522)

Edited Jun 21, 2007 1:35 am
This is from Why did DD have the cloak? thread and answers why the Longbottoms were not AKed brought up on this thread. I agree the Aurors/Order members arrived in time to stop the Longbottoms from being killed.

The scenario as thus :

James could have instructed the Order members to protect Harry no matter what. As Soul Search has said, Someone (longbottoms)must have been on watch duty outside their house under the cloak, they see the house being blown up and enter to find only baby Harry alive, they quickly cover Harry with it and (do a Silencio spell on Harry for good measure!) before having to fight with the DEs who are swarming into the house to find out what has happened to LV. Longbottoms manage to communicate with DD via their patronus before being taken away and crucioed.

Why were they being crucioed and not AKed is because the DEs wanted them alive to answer questions regarding the whereabouts of LV. Eventually they'd have been AKed but then the order members despatched by DD with info from Longbottom's patronus arrive and stop them. This is why they didnt die but went mad.

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Mediwitch - Jun 21, 2007 8:03 am (#521 of 522)

"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
From Ch. 30, GoF:

The attacks on [the Longbottoms] came after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe."

This doesn't sound to me as though the Longbottoms were attacked at Godric's Hollow on the night Voldemort disappeared. It seems as though there was some interval of unspecified time. I suppose it could be interpreted as immediately after, but how many people would have known of Voldemort's fall yet if the Longbottoms were attacked almost immediately upon his disappearance?

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totyle - Jun 21, 2007 8:14 pm (#522 of 522)

Even if it was immediately after, people could have got know of it from the Patronus message the Longbottoms sent DD before being captured.

But, I'd forgotten that GoF statement that youve quoted..hmmm...oh well..no theories to counter that...not till another lightning striking moment hits me..!!

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