The Riddle House, its Owner, & Will It be a Part of Book 7?

The Riddle House, its Owner, & Will It be a Part of Book 7?

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

Kip Carter - Jun 26, 2007 11:54 am
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Edited Aug 10, 2007 11:32 pm
Recently I was listening to Jim Dale's marvelous delivery of Book 4, I thought long about whether or not the Riddle House or its owner would place a part in the final book. I would like to offer the following from Chapter One - The Riddle House:

The wealthy man who owned the Riddle House these days neither lived there nor put it to any use; they said in the village that he kept it for "tax reasons," though nobody was very clear what these might be. The wealthy owner continued to pay Frank to do the gardening, however, Frank was nearing his seventy-seventh birthday now, very deaf, his bad leg stiffer than ever, but could be seen pottering around the flower beds in fine weather, even though the weeds were starting to creep up on him, try as he might to suppress them.
A few questions immediately come to mind:
1. Who is the wealthy owner?
2. Is he significant to the story?
3. What "tax reasons" could there be?
4. Why did the owner continue paying Frank?
Note: Did you notice the use of pottering?

Some feel that Lucius Malfoy was the wealthy owner.
5. If so, why would he possibly own the house?
6. Did Voldemort encourage Malfoy to purchase it?
7. If so, why?
8. Did Voldemort sense that it would be needed in the future?
9. Did Voldemort see the need of the house to be available in case something unfortunate happened to him, like the reversal of the Avada Kedavra?

Jo Rowling is known for inserting "red herrings" as well as "good clues" into her work.
10. Is the Riddle House one of these?
11. Is the wealthy owner one of these?
12. Is neither significant to Book 7?
13. Are these questions or part of them going to be answered in Book 7?
14. Would the questions possibly be answered in the projected follow-up book(s) that Jo may produce in the future?

I offer these questions for each of you to think about in the wait for Book 7 to be released. I am sure that there are many other questions and you are invited to add your thoughts to this discussion. Have fun!

Jenniffler - Jun 26, 2007 1:22 pm (#1 of 52)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
Great questions Kip: Here are my wacky opinions

1. Who is the wealthy owner? It could be anyone: Lucius Malfoy, Albus Dumbledore, Aberforth Dumbledore But my favorite is Severus Snape

2. Is he significant to the story? Definitely

3. What "tax reasons" could there be? If you pay taxes, the state does not take over the property. Imagine a Riddle House on the auction block. Shudder.

4. Why did the owner continue paying Frank? He knows that Frank is innocent and will never get another job. Note: Did you notice the use of pottering? In America we putter and repot, I was so happy to find the clever use of the word. It is unduplicated anywhere in the series, and inflates Frank Bryce’s importance in my mind.

Some feel that Lucius Malfoy was the wealthy owner.

5. If so, why would he possibly own the house? I don’t think he is , But I think we are supposed to assume this. He is a collector of Dark objects.

6. Did Voldemort encourage Malfoy to purchase it? With what, signs or whispers? No. .

7. If so, why? If Malfoy owns it he did it independently

8. Did Voldemort sense that it would be needed in the future? That grave was very convenient in Voldemort’s re-birthing. Possibly.

9. Did Voldemort see the need of the house to be available in case something unfortunate happened to him, like the reversal of the Avada Kedavra? Yes.

Jo Rowling is known for inserting "red herrings" as well as "good clues" into her work.

10. Is the Riddle House one of these? Good Clue

11. Is the wealthy owner one of these? Yes

12. Is neither significant to Book 7? I am doubtful.

13. Are these questions or part of them going to be answered in Book 7? If it is pertinent to the story. I think yes.

14. Would the questions possibly be answered in the projected follow-up book(s) that Jo may produce in the future? Only if 13 doesn’t apply.

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journeymom - Jun 26, 2007 1:47 pm (#2 of 52)
Thank you for asking this, Kip. I noticed the Wealthy Man the last time I read OotP, too.

Lucius Malfoy as owner is a logical thought. Though Albus Dumbledore gave Hagrid, the grounds keeper and keeper of the keys, a place to live, off of the castle. Would Dumbledore buy the house, thinking anything associated with Tom Jr. could be important in the future? And he continued to pay Frank Bryce, giving him a place to live and a job to do, just like he did with Hagrid. (And Lupin, Dobby, Winky, Filch, Snape and maybe Eileen Prince.)

I'm reminded of The Hundred and One Dalmations and Cruella de Vil's big, evil looking house. The Dearly's buy it and fix it up at the end. I can see Dumbledore willing the Riddle house to Harry (wouldn't that just get up Voldemort's slitty little nose!). Though what Harry would do with two big houses I don't know. Maybe one of them will burn down.

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rambkowalczyk - Jun 26, 2007 1:54 pm (#3 of 52)
If Malfoy is the owner of the house, then I doubt that the motive for hiring Frank was because Malfoy knew he was innocent unless it is to be shown that Lucius isn't totally evil. If Malfoy hired Frank it may be that Frank was the only one who applied for the job.

I could see Dumbledore buying the house and hiring Frank out of pity because Frank was falsely accused. But if Dumbledore bought the house, why? and when? Did he buy it before the events at Godric's Hollow or after. Dumbledore didn't suspect horcruxes until Harry's second year. Or was Dumbledore just looking for one horcrux and not find it in the Riddle House. If Dumbledore bought the house, wouldn't he have told Harry?

I could see Voldemort ordering one of his Death Eaters to buy the house and keep it safe without giving a reason. THe Death Eater would do it with out question.

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Jenniffler - Jun 26, 2007 2:10 pm (#4 of 52)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
I forgot an important detail. The book never specifies WHEN the wealthy man bought the house. There is a real possibility that Voldemort bought it as Tom Riddle (or inherited it) before he got zapped by Harry Potter.

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Choices - Jun 26, 2007 2:18 pm (#5 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
It is interesting that after the Riddles were murdered, the house passed through several hands - were they all Muggles? Probably. Then some rich man buys the house and continues to pay Frank to keep up the place. Why does he do this - is he just kind and sympathetic to Frank's age and infirmity, or does he have an ulterior motive? As to tax reasons - Muggles pay taxes (is there a property tax in Britain?), but do wizards? It would seem that if it is important to the story, someone would have checked at the Department of Records to see who owns the house or who pays taxes on it. Who owned the house after the Riddles died - was it left to a relative or did their estate sell the home and to whom did the money go when it was sold? As is typical, more questions are generated than answers.

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Paul Potter - Jun 26, 2007 2:25 pm (#6 of 52)
It was a rumor in the village that it was bought for tax reasons,

It probably was owned up until then present owner by Muggles as Ton Riddle Snr was a muggle but was then bought by LV and he seemed to Know who Frank was

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Soul Search - Jun 26, 2007 4:08 pm (#7 of 52)
The house needed a caretaker. Frank was there and willing. I don't think we need to look much deeper.

Since the house wasn't occupied, "tax reasons" would be the guess the locals would come up with. Again, not likely significant.

It would appear something drove the early purchasers of the house away. Could Tom Riddle have made sure no one got settled in the house until he could buy it? Strange mishaps would drive the price down.

We are assuming whoever last bought the house was keeping it for Voldemort; that is, it wasn't just an eccentric muggle or something. Since Voldemort used the house in GoF it would seem he knew it would be empty. He also seemed to know all about Frank, although that could have been from reading his mind.

It has been more than fifty years since the Riddles died. If it was only occupied for a few years right after their deaths, that is a long time for a house to be empty. Taxes, etc. would have had to have been paid when Voldemort was in vapor form. That would imply someone else as owner-of-record. (It seems too complicated for a soliciter to have been engaged to manage it.) Whoever was managing the property didn't do a very good job, like they didn't think Voldemort was ever coming back. Lucius didn't think Voldemort was coming back, which is why he used the diary.

The most imporant question would be is Voldemort still using the house? Could the Riddle house be his current headquarters? Only Dumbledore seemed to know about it.

The Riddle manor includes a graveyard. Where the Riddles are buried. Fitting for Voldemort to be buried there. Alongside his father.

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So Sirius - Jun 26, 2007 5:28 pm (#8 of 52)
The wealthy man who owned the Riddle House these days neither lived there nor put it to any use;

when I originally read this, I assumed it was LV himself. I still do.

they said in the village that he kept it for "tax reasons," though nobody was very clear what these might be.

I dont think this is highly significant.

paying Frank to tend to the place, seems logical. He never entered the house, kept to himself and kept the place up, so why not?

I noticed the "Pottering" too when first reading it and wondered about it, but the British use it and it seems reasonable here.

I agree with SS, I think the question is, is LV still in the house, using it as his base? Harry has seen this house in a dream, will he know it if he sees it in person?

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Choices - Jun 26, 2007 5:57 pm (#9 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I believe Voldemort (or someone for him) owns the house. His keeping Frank on as caretaker is interesting and probably why I think Voldemort did make a Horcrux with the murder of Frank. Frank is Voldemort's last contact with his father and grandparents. Frank is connected to their estate and thus to the Riddle family. Frank was accused of murdering them, but Frank and Voldemort both know Frank is innocent. For these reasons, I think Voldemort would consider Frank significant enough to use his murder for a Horcrux.

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Mediwitch - Jun 26, 2007 7:43 pm (#10 of 52)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Choices, that's a very good point about Frank being "more valuable" to Voldemort because they both knew that Frank did not kill the Riddles. I always found the arguments that Frank was the "last tie" to the Riddles (and therefore horcrux-worthy) to be a bit of a stretch. You've shed some new light on the subject for me...

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Solitaire - Jun 26, 2007 8:12 pm (#11 of 52)
If that is indeed the case, it would make a strong argument for Nagini being a Horcrux ... wouldn't it? Or could it be Frank's walking stick?

Solitaire

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 26, 2007 10:41 pm (#12 of 52)
"pottering around the flower beds in fine weather" This brings to mind Harry hiding in the flowerbeds under the Dursley's window trying to catch the news.

I thought the owner was Voldemort but through Malfoy's transactions. I could see Malfoy writing it off his taxes while he thought Voldemort was gone. Like the diary,it would suit his own needs. Hey,wait a minute. Do Wizards pay taxes?

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Solitaire - Jun 26, 2007 11:11 pm (#13 of 52)
Lucius Malfoy's behavior up to the rebirthing almost seems (to me) as though he believes Voldemort is dead. Even Voldemort was not too impressed with the way Lucius used the Diary for his own petty purposes. As to paying taxes ... the Riddle house was a Muggle house and there would probably have been a record of its existence; so I suppose whoever owned it would have to pay taxes on it. I don't think Wizards pay taxes on their own homes, however. Muggle tax collectors are pretty shrewd, but I doubt they are a match for fidelius charms and unplottable spells. LOL

Interestingly, it seems a lot more like Dumbledore than Malfoy to pay Frank Bryce. If Malfoy was indeed the one keeping the place up all those years, I suspect he was doing it for his own reasons, because he did not know Voldemort was alive ... according to his comments in the graveyard. I do agree, however, that Frank Bryce seems to be the last living link between the senior Riddles and young Tom Riddle, whom he'd observed near the house on the day the Riddles died. Killing him would eliminate the only witness.

Solitaire

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azi - Jun 27, 2007 4:28 am (#14 of 52)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
I too can't see why someone like LV or a Malfoy would pay a muggle anything. It just wouldn't happen! If the person who owns the house is a wizard, it would be more likely to be Dumbledore.

Pottering is term in UK English...

Pottering

Potter \Pot"ter\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Pottered; p. pr. & vb. n. Pottering.] [Cf. W. pwtio to poke, or OD. poteren to search one thoroughly, Sw. p[*a]ta, peta, to pick, E. pother, put.] 1. To busy one's self with trifles; to labor with little purpose, energy, of effect; to trifle; to pother. (from dictionary.com)

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Joanne Reid - Jun 27, 2007 7:46 am (#15 of 52)
Hi,

Like others, I had thought that Voldemort himself owned the family estate.

When he killed his parents, he was too young and too poor to buy the house. It went through several Muggles' hands before he had acquired sufficient wealth to purchase it himself.

However, since he didn't want the MM to find him by searching Muggle tax rolls, he purchased it through an agent. That same agent maintained the property, paid the taxes, etc. Now, of course, Voldemort can use it as his headquarters.

Perhaps it was just a cruel turn of fate that Frank was kept on as the caretaker only to be murdered by the same person who had murdered the Riddles.

And, I had assumed that the graveyard, that figures so prominently, was the family plot. That is, Voldemort had purchased his father's grave deliberately to provide the ingredients for his re-creation.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 27, 2007 8:59 am (#16 of 52)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
I agree with Joanne. In addition, I think Riddle would have kept a finger on the house if for no other reason than to associate it with his Muggle side, despise it if he wants, deep down it is still a tie to his roots.

Headquarters, safe-house works for me, though I can;\'t see it as a ingredient for his rebirthing, because he never suspected there would be one!

...toddles off elsewhere...

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Steve Newton - Jun 27, 2007 9:25 am (#17 of 52)
Librarian
I've been thinking this over a bit. I had long thought that Lucius owned the Riddle house. But, somebody commented about paying the grounds keeper and that Lucius would be unlikely to do this. This suggests to me that Dumbledore may have been the owner. It would perhaps allow him to keep track of Voldemort when he returned and it would explain how he knew that a muggle had died at the beginning of GOF. Against this is that Voldemort used the house with no obvious consequences. I guess that I am waffling again.

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Choices - Jun 27, 2007 9:29 am (#18 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Steve - "... it would explain how he knew that a muggle had died at the beginning of GOF."

Dumbledore tells Harry he read it in a Muggle newspaper.

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Steve Newton - Jun 27, 2007 11:26 am (#19 of 52)
Librarian
Indeed he does. But I think that he read that newspaper because he was following the news from that area.

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Choices - Jun 27, 2007 11:43 am (#20 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
That is a definite possibility.

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Solitaire - Jun 27, 2007 3:31 pm (#21 of 52)
Didn't Dumbledore keep up with Muggle events in general? Unlike Ministry bigwigs, he seemed to see a connection between the events of the magical world and those of the Muggle world. No wonder Fudge was worried that Dumbledore was after his job ... Dumbledore was doing a lot of what should have been Fudge's job.

Solitaire

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Soul Search - Jun 27, 2007 4:50 pm (#22 of 52)
All we know is Dumbledore read muggle newspapers. Surely not ALL of them, so the newspaper serving Haggleton must have been specifically targeted. Questions arise, like why that one and how did he recognize Frank Bryce's name.

Dumbledore didn't know about Tom Riddle Sr. when he talked to Tom Riddle Jr. in the orphanage. We must assume he had no interest in the Haggleton area until he received Bob Ogden's or Morphin's memories. (Although, something had to lead him to Bob Ogden.) But why would Dumbledore monitor the newspaper from the area? What was he expecting? Why would Tom Riddle ever return to the area?

Did Dumbledore know Frank Bryce was caretaker for the Riddle mansion or did he just recognize the manner of death? (AK, no signs of death, etc.)

I don't think Dumbledore could be the owner of the Riddle mansion. We don't know the timing of Dumbledore's interest in the area but it must have been well after its ownership passed to the "mysterious stranger" who kept it for tax reasons. Dumbledore owning the mansion would serve little purpose. If Dumbledore had bought the Riddle mansion, I don't see Voldemort using it in GoF. Not impossible, but he would have to know it was empty and available. Voldemort even told Wormtail they would be spending a few days there. (I wonder what they did with Frank's body and how was it eventually discovered.)

My read would be Voldemort owned the mansion, knew it was empty, and knew only Frank Bryce was likely to disturb them. Dumbledore, however, discovered the ownership of the mansion in his research and knew Frank Bryce was the caretaker. He monitored the Haggleton newspaper just in case.

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Choices - Jun 27, 2007 5:57 pm (#23 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
LOL (nit-pick alert) I bet Dumbledore even read the Hangleton paper as well.

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Solitaire - Jun 27, 2007 7:12 pm (#24 of 52)
Dumbledore didn't know about Tom Riddle Sr. when he talked to Tom Riddle Jr. in the orphanage.

Are you sure of this? Dumbledore tells Mrs. Cole that Tom Riddle's name had been "down for our school since birth," so he must have figured that Tom Riddle, Jr.'s father would be Tom Riddle, Sr. Perhaps even the mother's maiden name is listed--we do not know. Whether it was or not, I'm betting Dumbledore immediately recognized the name Marvalo when Mrs. Cole said Tom's mother gave it as his middle name. It's probably in Hogwarts: A History. If he did make that connection, it wouldn't be difficult to make the connection to Slytherin--particularly after Tom informed him he could talk to snakes. I suspect the reason he asked about Tom's father was to confirm that he was a Muggle. After all, would a Wizarding father have left his son in an orphanage?

Solitaire

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Ginerva Potter - Jun 27, 2007 8:59 pm (#25 of 52)
Hi Soul Search - Actually, I don't think they ever found a body. I don't remember exactly where the quote is but Dumbledore only says that the Ministry wasn't making a connection between the disappearances. I was reading on one of the threads here that some people just assumed that Frank was feed to Nagini. I never made that connection, but when I read it, I thought it's possible. I guess I never really stopped to think what happened to his body.

Ginny

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Solitaire - Jun 27, 2007 9:40 pm (#26 of 52)
Yeah, I think she probably ate him. Hm ... what sort of snake would be that big? A boa constrictor, perhaps ... like the one Harry freed in the zoo? Do you suppose Bertha Jorkins was also Nagini's dinner? They never found her body, did they ... or am I forgetting something?

Solitaire

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 28, 2007 4:43 am (#27 of 52)
Potter is defined by the Chambers English dictionary as: to busy oneself in a desultory (ramdom) way with trifling tasks. Probably Frank Bryce was jumping from weeding to pick fruit to dead-heading flowers but unable to settle on any particular task because of the bad memories.

In the UK if you own a house and it is empty for more than six months you do not have to pay council tax (or possible pole tax or rates depending on the time of the book) on that property. This means the house could have played its role as a hideout for Voldemort before his rebirth. I personally would be surprised if it reappears as Little Hangleton has played its role. The Riddle House as the focus of Voldemort in GoF, and the Gaunt hovel as a hiding place for a horcrux.

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Holly T. - Jun 28, 2007 7:36 am (#28 of 52)
I have always assumed that the wealthy owner was Lucius Malfoy. It just seems like the kind of thing he would do, like holding on to the diary, just in case. But would Malfoy know that the Riddle House was Voldemort's house? How much does Malfoy know about Riddle's background? The Death Eaters who were at school with Tom Riddle would know Voldemort was Riddle, but was Malfoy part of that crowd? This is getting more confusing for me.

This is what I love about these books--no matter how many times you read them you still keep coming up with questions. I expect we'll still have questions after book 7.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 28, 2007 9:59 am (#29 of 52)
I know what you mean,Holly. Bella was outraged when Harry said Voldemort was a Half-Blood. Although some of the DE he was in school with know him as Tom Riddle I don't think they know his history.Being that Voldemort was so talented, a pure blood supremist and the last heir of Salazaar Slytherin,I doubt anyone questioned his blood lines.

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Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2007 10:37 am (#30 of 52)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I agree with Joanne Reid's assessment. I think Voldemort purchased the Riddle house after it had passed through a succession of muggle owners, and he completed all financial arrangements anonymously through an agent. He would definitely want to preserve access to the family graveyard. There was probably some satisfaction derived also from owning all the worldly possessions of his "filthy muggle" relatives -- they were pretty snobbish apparently, and looked down on the Gaunts, so it might feel pretty good to Voldemort to sit on their throne, so to speak.

It would just make practical sense for Frank Bryce to continue as caretaker -- the agent handling things for Voldy would find this the easiest solution. Frank would be familiar with everything about the house such as the plumbing, etc., so he would be the natural choice. From Frank's perspective, it would be a fairly easy source of income for him -- no owners being present, he could be pretty lax about things and still draw a nice paycheck; all he has to do really is make sure the place still has a roof over it and doesn't burn down or anything, and he can amuse himself by "pottering" when he feels like it.

Phelim, thanks for the info on UK tax regulations on abandoned houses. Wish it was that way here... we have several old farmhouses on our property -- the tax rate drops as the assessment of the house's value drops, but you still have to pay whether anyone's living there or not.

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Jenniffler - Jun 28, 2007 11:20 am (#31 of 52)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
I think that maybe the Riddle house is a candiate for a horcrux, but this thread gave me the idea! I posted it over on the Vote: Unknown Horcrux thread. But With JKR, one never knows.

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zelmia - Jun 28, 2007 11:33 am (#32 of 52)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I have always assumed that by the time of GF the Riddle House had been purchased by Voldemort. To me it makes perfect sense that Voldemort would have purchased the house himself, perhaps even through Quirrell ("He was easy to bend to my will... he brought me back to this country, and after a while, I took possession of his body, to supervise him closely as he carried out my orders." - GF 33, "The Death Eaters"). And it seems he had always planned to go back there ("My father's bone, naturally, meant that we would have to come here, where he was buried." - ibid).

I don't think Lucius owned the house because undoubtedly Voldemort would have said something about this in his "how I did it" speech at the end of GF.

As for keeping Frank Bryce on, I don't find that at all unusual, even for a prejudiced wizard. Whoever purchased the house clearly had no intention of drawing attention to himself - and no intention of occupying the house. He would keep on the existing staff to prevent as much notice as possible, and also for the sheer sake of convenience. I doubt even Lucius or Voldemort really gave a second thought to the groundskeeping staff.
It is only when Voldemort physically moves in to the house that Frank Bryce becomes a problem, albeit one all too easily solved for the Dark Lord.

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totyle - Jun 28, 2007 8:16 pm (#33 of 52)
I had on my frequent rereads always entertained the thought that it could have been Dumbledore who was the wealthy owner but as to why and the supporting reasons...I really dont have. Just an intuition which could be waaaay off the mark of course.

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Soul Search - Jun 29, 2007 6:12 am (#34 of 52)
I don't think Dumbledore owned the Riddle house, but it would be an amusing plot twist if Harry inherited another house he wanted nothing to do with.

I think Voldemort owned the house, perhaps with Lucius Malfoy as front man.

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zelmia - Jun 29, 2007 10:01 am (#35 of 52)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I really don't think it was Lucius this time. I don't even think it was Voldemort himself until PS/SS, when Quirrell brought him back to England. By that time, Voldemort would have known that he would need the "bone of [his] father" if he were ever to have an independent corporeal existence again.

Incidentally, "The Riddle House" (GF) says that the Riddles were buried in the village cemetary, their grave(s) being the object of morbid curiosity for several years, as opposed to a private family crypt or similar on the actual grounds occupied the Riddle House.

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Choices - Jun 29, 2007 10:36 am (#36 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree Zelmia, about where they were buried, but I do think the cemetary was in view of the Riddle mansion. When Harry and Cedric land in the graveyard, Harry says he could see a church on one side and the outline of a fine old house on the other. I believe the graves were visible from the Riddle property.

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journeymom - Jun 29, 2007 11:26 am (#37 of 52)
Zelmia, I thought so! The Riddles didn't have a crypt, or whatnot, on the property. But, yes, it was within sight of the Riddle house. Nit picking.

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Chemyst - Jun 29, 2007 11:48 am (#38 of 52)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
At the GF phase of publication, I thought Voldemort had bought the house because he seemed so completely comfortable there even though his body was still in a magically weakened state. Everything we learned about Tom Riddle in HBP strengthens that notion: the way he gives significance to objects, the way he plots things before acting. Also, during the Radio City Music Hall Q&A JKR called LV a psychopath, and buying that particular house sounds like something a psychopath would desire.

Whether or not the house is significant in DH might depend on Nagini. I think we have been given three far more likely staging areas, Hogwarts, Godric's Hollow and the Department of Mysteries. But if Nagini is a horcrux, then LV would need a place to keep her. He can't just throw her in a sack and be done with it.

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Good Evans - Jun 29, 2007 11:57 am (#39 of 52)
Practically perfect in every way
I just thought I would add a bit about "tax reasons" . Wealthy people in Britain may well own second properties that no one lives in. property is a appreciating asset (even if not maintained brilliantly), in britain of late (past 10-15 years) property has been on the up and up in vlaue. While an investment, the money is not being used to accrue other interest and therefore would not require any annual tax payment. The only property tax it would incur is 50% - 90% Council tax (depending on the charging policy of the local council that it is situated in). Ctax in average in uk is £1200 per annum, so it would cost 600 - 1080 per annum max plus ay upkeep and frank - probably less than the tax they would pay on the 2-3 million that it would currently be valued at!!

having said all that - I think that LV bought it himself before he dissapeared, so doesnt keep it for tax reaons per se. he bought it in order to gloat over his muggle parent and to have the preserving of the property should he need the fathers bone.

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Paul Potter - Jun 29, 2007 12:00 pm (#40 of 52)
Chemyst It would be great if he would put Nagini in a sack and throw in into the lake. LOL.

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Vox Gerbilis - Jun 29, 2007 6:58 pm (#41 of 52)
Under general common law inheritance rules, Tom Riddle, Jr., would have inherited the house when his grandparents and father died, unless there were other Riddle heirs or other arrangements for the disposition of the property (e.g., willed or mortgaged to another person). Did the UK modify this law in the relevant time period?

Accordingly, I inferred that LV was the owner of the property by right of inheritance. Presumably, he used some sort of agent to make the necessary arrangements. LV is launching his campaign of terror against muggles as well as wizards, so it makes sense that he would have a base in the muggle world. I also suspect that he may use the place to hide a horcrux or two.

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rambkowalczyk - Jun 29, 2007 7:30 pm (#42 of 52)
The only way Tom Jr could inherit the property would be for him to publically claim he was the son of Tom SR. Remember no one knew that Tom Sr had any children. And I doubt that Tom wished to acknowledge his Muggle background.

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Madam Pince - Jun 29, 2007 11:29 pm (#43 of 52)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I don't think Tom Riddle/Voldemort inherited the house -- in GoF Chapter 1 JKR says that Frank Bryce "...stayed to tend the garden for the next family who lived in the Riddle House, and the next -- for neither family stayed long. Perhaps it was partly because of Frank that the new owners(emphasis mine) said there was a nasty feeling about the place..."

We know the house was lived in by at least two other families, then, following the "massacre." If not for her using the words "new owners," I would say it might be possible that they had been renters, but it sounds to me like actual ownership of the house passed through a couple people before the "wealthy man" bought it. Rambkowalczyk is right -- nobody knew about Tom Sr. and Merope's little secret, so Tom, Jr. would have no inheritance claim.

Good points, zelmia and Choices, about the location of the graveyard where the Riddles were buried -- it was definitely Little Hangleton churchyard, so it wouldn't have been on the Riddle grounds. I don't know why all this time I've thought it was a family graveyard. ***thunks self on head***

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Soul Search - Jun 30, 2007 5:29 am (#44 of 52)
Good point about the graveyard being the Little Hangleton churchyard; I, too, had it in mind it was part of the Riddle property. There is, however, no mention of a church nearby.

At one time the graveyard was a candidate for the final confrontation. Now, however, the Deathly Hallows book covers suggest another location.

So, the question is, will the graveyard or Riddle House play any role in Deathly Hallows? Unless Voldemort is using the house for his headquarters, or something, it seems unlikely we will see it again.

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mona amon - Jun 30, 2007 8:04 am (#45 of 52)
it seems unlikely we will see it again.

I agree. It has played its part in GOF. New book, new locations!

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Choices - Jun 30, 2007 9:42 am (#46 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Soul Search - "There is, however, no mention of a church nearby."

Actually there is......When Harry and Cedric land in the graveyard, Harry notices there is a chruch on one side of the graveyard and what appeared to be a fine old house (the Riddle mansion) on the other.

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zelmia - Jun 30, 2007 10:54 am (#47 of 52)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
"The Riddles were buried in the Little Hangleton churchyard, and their graves remained objects of curiosity for a while." - GF1.

"[Harry and Cedric] were standing instead [of the Hogwarts grounds] in a dark and overgrown graveyard; the black outline of a small church was visible beyond a large yew tree to their right. A hill rose above them to their left. Harry could just make out the outline of a fine old house on the hillside." - GF32

I think we've come to expect that old manor houses like the Riddle House would have some sort of family crypt or grave yard associated with them, at least in literature.
As has been stated, the teenaged Voldemort wouldn't have inherited the house unless he came forward to put in a claim on the property. But he didn't either because it wasn't of interest to him at that time; or perhaps because he didn't want to risk anyone recognising him from his appearance just before the Riddles were murdered. If it was the latter, I doubt it would be because he was afraid of the villagers or the Muggle police; after all, he "was always able to charm the people he needed to". But he may have been concerned that it would somehow get back to Dumbledore.

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phuze - Jun 30, 2007 1:07 pm (#48 of 52)
Another point I would see going against the idea that Dumbledore bought the house is that it seems unlikely that if Dumbledore owned it that he wouldn't hav some sort of magical way to keep track of what is going on there - the wizarding world's equivalent of a home alarm system. I can't see Voldemort spending time in the house undetected if Dumbledore owned it.

I do wonder if the Riddle house will have a role in DH. Since Dumbledore already went to the Gaunt house to get the ring horcrux I think that could be an argument against Harry needing to go to Little Hangleton again. In my opinion, there would have to be some non-Horcrux reason for Harry to visit there.

JM2K,

Phuze

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rambkowalczyk - Jun 30, 2007 9:40 pm (#49 of 52)
One question we might ask is when did Dumbledore start his investigation of Tom Riddle? At that point I could see Dumbledore buying the property thinking there might be a clue there or at the very least thinking Tom might return to the scene of the crime.

When Voldemort is defeated in 1981, Dumbledore says it's been ten years of nothing to cheer about. This suggests that in 1971 was when Voldermort started his reign of terror. This would then be the logical starting point when Dumbledore would start investigating Tom and his movements. I'm assuming that previous to this Voldemort was not in Britain.

(going to Voldemort thread to post something that has little to do with this topic)

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Luna Logic - Jul 1, 2007 1:41 am (#50 of 52)
from the other side (of the Channel)
rambkowalczyk I'm assuming that previous to this Voldemort was not in Britain.
By the way, thanks for your summary-chronology of Tom Riddle.
My idea is that Tom Riddle, during his years at Borgin and Burke, has constituted a capital, and he started to implement his projects. It was necessary for him to have a base, a well hidden place, a A place whose symbol would be positive. My opinion is that he first sought the traces of Salazar Slytherin.
Then he found a residence - which we are to see in volume 7 (I hope so!), this house being located in the fens of the North of England…
But if not, that could indeed be abroad - in other fens…

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Soul Search - Jul 1, 2007 7:46 am (#51 of 52)
Choices, zelmia, thanks for the references. I have revised my vision of the graveyard and environs. It seems the mansion was a lot further away than I had thought.

I am wondering if Harry associates the "fine old house on the hillside" he noted in GoF with the Riddle mansion in HBP? I can't recall any mention of the graveyard in HBP.

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Choices - Jul 1, 2007 10:25 am (#52 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think the "fine old mansion on the hillside" is the Riddle house. I don't think the graveyard is mentioned in HBP because it is not necessary to the plot in that book. It more or less served it's purpose at the end of GOF.