Trelawney & LV

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Trelawney & LV

Post  Elanor on Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:20 am

Trelawney & LV

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

So Sirius - Jun 16, 2006 8:59 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jul 4, 2006 3:10 am
I don't know if anyone has brought this up before now, but I find Trewlawneys ability to channel LV quite remarkable. She, of course, was the one who made the original prophecy to DD. She then was able to make another one about Wormtail and LV, to Harry. In HBP she was reading the tarot cards, when Harry was hiding and mentioned a young boy with dark hair who dislikes the questioner. At first, I thought that she was referring to Harry, as she mentioned violence and such before that, but then I realized after reading more, that it was just prior to Harry learning about LVs childhood and LVs first meeting with DD. I do believe, although McGonagall would disagree, that she has genuine abilities and has been pivotal to the story in a lot of ways. She also mentioned to Harry that Divination would have been useful to continue, being the chosen one and all and I think he may come to find, she was right, again. There was also that incident at the Christmas lunch table where Harry and Ron got up at the same time and it meant one would die and McGonagall shrugged that off... I suspect she was right there too and personally, I think Harry got up first.
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Trelawney & LV (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:21 am

Choices - Jun 16, 2006 10:18 am (#1 of 94)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well, I have my gun out and I have to shoot down some things - first, Trelawney refers to a "dark young man, possibly troubled", not a boy with dark hair. I think she may be referring to Draco.

So Sirius -".... but I find Trelawney ability to channel LV quite remarkable."

Trelawney is not channeling Voldemort, she is channeling or receiving info from someone ABOUT Voldemort - first about Voldemort and Harry and then about Wormtail and Voldemort. The info may be coming from her famous Seer ancestor. I tend to believe that she may have one more important prophesy to make, otherwise Dumbledore wouldn't be keeping her around (although he may just be keeping her to keep Voldemort from extracting the first prophesy.) It will be interesting to see if she has been kidnapped by the DE's and what impact that might have on events in book 7.

I think Trelawney is, as Hermione said, a "right old fraud", who has moments of receptivity where she gets these "messages" from the beyond. She has been spot on a time or two, but I don't think she is as good as she thinks she is.

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haymoni - Jun 16, 2006 10:25 am (#2 of 94)

Well it's strange that her prophesies both had to do with Voldy. I suppose she may have had others: "The houselves will serve chicken legs at dinner tonight." or something like that but she's focused on something.

I thought "dark young man" meant Harry, because I took it to mean dark-haired. Unless she was talking about Dean Thomas! Snape is dark, but he's not young. Who else could it be besides Harry??

I think when Trelawney "tries" to be a seer, she stinks. She's got the gift - just no control.

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Choices - Jun 16, 2006 10:54 am (#3 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Haymoni - "I think when Trelawney "tries" to be a seer, she stinks. She's got the gift - just no control."

I like the way you phrased that - I agree.

I thought perhaps she was referring to Draco who is on the "dark" side (and also troubled) and the questioner referred to Dumbledore who questioned what Draco was doing and questioned him on the tower.

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haymoni - Jun 16, 2006 11:10 am (#4 of 94)

I thought Trewlawney was the questioner.

Should we move all this to the Trelawney thread?

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So Sirius - Jun 16, 2006 11:17 am (#5 of 94)

Choices, thank you for correcting me. I think it's a good discussion. We, the readers, are perceiving it quite different. You read it as dark, or evil and I read it as both evil and dark haired, or LV as a boy. I think JKRs placement of that passage, just before young LV meets younger DD, might be her foreshadowing that meeting. Although, i'm certainly open to other interpretations.

And thanks also about my use of "channeling" I suppose what I meant was what haymoni said, where she certainly does focus on LV a lot, getting it right, the times we know about and we haven't seen, in the books, JKR showing her seeing anything much else. JKR didn't have her read of the tarot cards point out DDs death, only this dark young man and I really think it was LV she was talking about, yet again. So, is there a connection to LV and what is it?

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haymoni - Jun 16, 2006 11:28 am (#6 of 94)

I have to re-read that part.

I don't have my books with me, but I thought Harry is hiding on his way to Dumbledore's office and Trelawney passes by him talking to herself about what she is seeing in the cards.

"Dislikes the Questioner" - "no that can't be right". Trelawney is thinking nobody dislikes her. Harry overhears it and knows she is right because he - the dark young man - doesn't like her.

I don't see how Voldy would dislike Trelawney, other than he dislikes everybody. He would at least find her useful. Harry hasn't come to that point just yet.

I don't know how to move things around, but we did have a Trelawney thread. Shouldn't this be moved there?

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Choices - Jun 16, 2006 11:50 am (#7 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
This is the Trelawney and LV thread - surely it's OK to discuss Trelawney here.

I wish I could remember where I read the theory about the dark young man being Draco and Dumbledore the questioner - it could have been on the Alchemy thread or the Looking for Symbolism in HP thread. I just remember it was someone whose opinion I respect and I liked that idea.

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journeymom - Jun 16, 2006 12:05 pm (#8 of 94)

I believe the dark young man is Harry with his black hair. Harry truly dislikes Trelawney's classes. Harry was hiding at the moment he overhears her. What would have happened if she'd come across Harry? She might have flagged him down and tactlessly questioned him about things he'd rather not discuss, hold him up when he's in a hurry to get elsewhere and generally irritate him. I also didn't see much in it, other than a humorous moment. However, it should be noted that this mini-prophecy was correct. She got it right, she just didn't know it.

I like the idea that she'll make one more Voldemort related prophecy. It's a good thing Umbridge didn't manage to get rid of her.

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So Sirius - Jun 16, 2006 12:09 pm (#9 of 94)

Haymoni, I didn't see a Trelawney thread, but I really wanted the question of her prophetic abilities regarding LV, to be the issue. But, as long as the discussion remains, I certainly don't have issue where the thread goes.

Again, everyone reads things with their own perceptions, but I personally didn't read it as Trelawney interjecting herself into her reading. I very much doubt she was saying that she herself was the questioner of the dark young man, but I'll also re-read that and see if I missed something there.

Choices, I respect that, but I also like and respect myself lol and had another thought on what it could be. I would like to read the other opinion, though. As much as I really, really think it's LV as a youth she's talking about - mostly because of the placement in the story line - I'm certainly open to another theory.

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Choices - Jun 16, 2006 12:10 pm (#10 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I just have a hard time seeing Trelawney as the "questioner". She is a Seer and gives people information or answers rather than asking them questions.

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haymoni - Jun 16, 2006 12:19 pm (#11 of 94)

Who asks Trelawney to "see" for them???

I thought that she was asking questions of the Tarot cards and they were answering.

I don't know anything about tarot cards - other than Solitare from "Live & Let Die" - so I could be way off.

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So Sirius - Jun 16, 2006 12:22 pm (#12 of 94)

When Harry was looking at his copy of Advanced potion making and saw that it was 50 years old, I obviously wouldn't have suspected Snape of being the Prince, because he was at school with Harry's dad. So, he must have acquired the book from someone, himself... possibly the same way Harry did, or perhaps, it was his moms book... OR perhaps it was LV's book. What if he got the book from LV himself and the writing or inventing of spells are really LV's and Snape used them, as Harry is doing? Snape discovered who the book belonged to, maybe he knew all along, and that's when he renamed himself, the Half Blood Prince.

I know that doesn't belong on this thread, but I'm hoping that the answer to the question of mine, might have something to do with the bigger picture and this, the book, the Prince, is the bigger picture of the story.

Snape and LV. But why does Trelawney see? Is it just JKR using her to show us or is there more?

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So Sirius - Jun 16, 2006 12:49 pm (#13 of 94)

Haymoni, I re-read it and she is not referring to herself when reading the cards. She does, however, mention that her reading couldn't be right, so perhaps she was looking for an answer to the current situation, but "channeling" LV, yet again. Actually, she uses the knave card regarding this troubled dark young person. I found this...

"The term knave has a long history that predates its use as a playing card. By about the year 1000, knave meant 'a boy' or 'a male servant'. But before 1200 knave took on its present English meaning of 'a rogue or scoundrel', probably because the original references were to a boy of the lower classes or to a servant of low status."

If JKR used the knave on purpose and I suspect she did, she probably wouldn't be referring to Malfoy by using this particular card, yet LV, especially at the time, in his youth, at the orphanage, fits.

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Choices - Jun 16, 2006 12:51 pm (#14 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
So Sirius, I think the popular theory is that the book belonged to Snape's Mom.

Haymoni, I don't think anyone "asks" Trelawney to make these predictions, I think she just thinks of herself as a Seer like her great-grandmother. Evidently, at least twice, she has channeled information that has proved to be valid. About Trelawney questioning the Tarot cards - you could well be correct. Once again JKR has made it vague enough that we can come up with several good possibilities as to what and who she is talking about.

Draco definitely is a scoundrel and he is the servant of Voldemort. I think that qualifies him as a knave.

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Madam Pince - Jun 16, 2006 12:54 pm (#15 of 94)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Edited Jun 16, 2006 1:36 pm
When this discussion came up a long time ago, some knowledgable Forumer who was well-read on the subject of Tarot cards told us that the person who is doing the "reading," or requesting information from the cards, during a fortune-telling session is standardly referred to in the biz as "The Questioner." That's why we eventually reached the consensus (I think) that Trelawney was "the questioner" and that Harry was the dark young man who didn't like her -- she was getting an accurate reading from her cards which were being put all out-of-whack by the close proximity of Harry, but she just couldn't figure it out because she couldn't see him there under his invisibility cloak (or in the closet or wherever it was he was hiding -- I forget.) It was just a sort of comic-thing that JKR threw in there.

I will try to find the original quote from the person who knew the info about "the questioner." I myself would've never known that fact without the tip from that person.

Love your observation, haymoni, that Trelawney fails miserably when she "tries" to see, but obviously has some kind of gift that kicks in when she's not really trying.

Also, there is already a Trelawney thread in the Group Folder section of Hogwarts Staff Members. Maybe/probably a host will want to move this discussion there.

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So Sirius - Jun 16, 2006 12:59 pm (#16 of 94)

As I know nothing about tarot cards, I wouldn't have suspected that at all, MP. Of all the places to have this happen, why do you think JKR would have picked this one though... right before Harry learns about LV at the orphanage meeting DD? I don't doubt what you have to say and if I'm wrong than all this is mute... not to mention, it's a good theory... but, it seems so unlike JKR. I can't imagine Harry dislikes Trelawney, as much as pities her or is annoyed by her or thinks she's a bit wacky.

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haymoni - Jun 16, 2006 1:02 pm (#17 of 94)

I'm holding out that it is Harry because he doesn't like Trelawney. She predicts his death left and right. He's almost as rude to her as he is to Snape.

I just don't see who else The Questioner could be.

Who is asking the questions? Trelawney is because she's alone. She's been sitting up in her tower reviewing the cards over and over.

She's tried to tell Dumbledore what she has been seeing in the cards, but he doesn't seem to want to listen, so I doubt that he's the Questioner.

I don't see how reading the cards would work in the young Tom Riddle/Dumbledore scenario - the event already happened.

But I have been wrong many, many times before!!

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Madam Pince - Jun 16, 2006 1:16 pm (#18 of 94)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
OK, found something although I don't think this is quite the exact post that I was thinking of. This was in the Chapter-by-Chapter discussions of HBP; in the chapter "The Lightning-Struck Tower" (I really need to learn how to do those nifty links...)

Wendelin the Weird - Jul 20, 2005 11:34 am (#123 of 375)

I've got a question : what is "the questioner" ? Is it a tarot card?

Ahh the questioner is the person who is asking the cards for information. So say if Trelawney was reading cards for Parvati, and Parvati wanted to know if _____ would happen, then Parvati is the questioner and Trelawney the channeler/reader. Whereas in this case, Trelawney seems to be reading her own future and therefore is the questioner. "What is going to happen in my near future?" or some such question... in the near future, a dark young man blah blah blah... It could be read as Draco or Harry depending on how you interpret. I just read it as Harry because she stops and says "thats not right!" since later we hear shes been getting the same cards over and over. She seems to expect the others warning of danger and catastrophe, but not this new card.

I will keep looking...

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Magic Words - Jun 16, 2006 1:26 pm (#19 of 94)

Do you all think we should consider the recurrance of the "lightning-struck tower" card as accurate, since there's a chapter named after it? That would make three predictions, although only two are prophecies.

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Madam Pince - Jun 16, 2006 1:35 pm (#20 of 94)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
This search is very frustrating -- I'm not sure if the "search" button probes into the archived threads or only the active ones, or if it goes into the group folders, or whatever. I'd swear that in the post I'm remembering, the person who said it prefaced their statement by saying that they actually did tarot readings, and so their definition was considered to be pretty accurate. But I can't seem to find that quote.

Wikipedia calls the person asking the cards for info "the querent" rather than "the questioner." There were a whole lot of other Google sites about tarot cards but I'm afraid to click on them because I don't want my computer to pick up a cookie and be besieged by offers from fortune-tellers like I am now with exhortations to "Buy this stock quickly now while prices are low!"

I am left with the impression that Trelawney was the questioner, and that she had been studying the tarot cards in her tower over and over and had gotten the same result every time -- that there was going to be conflict, and violence, and something about the lightning-struck tower, and that the last card (the knave?) indicated who was going to be the source of all these troubles. So she was on her way up to Dumbledore's office to warn him, and she was re-reading the cards again while she was walking. When she passed by Harry hiding behind the statue outside Dumbledore's office, his proximity caused the cards to spew out a reading of "a dark young man who dislikes the questioner" (Harry), and it caused confusion for Trelawney "That can't be right!" because that one card was different than all the other results she'd gotten before, which had been the same ones over and over (hence her decision to try to warn DD.) She didn't see Harry there, so she was confused, and turned around and went back to her tower to contemplate it all again.

At least, that was my impression. The reason she said "That can't be right" was because the final card was different than it had been every time before, and the reason it was different this time was because she happened to be walking next to Harry as she drew the card, which is what caused them to go all ker-flooey.

Magic Words, I would say that yes, Trelawney's tarot readings could be classified as a third accurate prediction (Lightning-struck tower.) Again, it seems as though she wasn't really "trying" to see, but only paid attention when "the great beyond" was practically banging her over the head with it by repeating the same sequence to her over and over.

Good thing I'm not a fortune-teller!

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So Sirius - Jun 16, 2006 2:05 pm (#21 of 94)

Let me type the paragraph from HBP American version pg. 195:

"Professor Trelawney appeared around a corner, muttering to herself as she shuffled a pack of dirty-looking playing cards, reading them as she walked. "Two of spades:conflict," she murmured, as she passed the place where Harry crouched, hidden. "Seven of spades:an ill omen. Ten of spades:violence. Knave of spades:a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner-" She stopped dead, right on the other side of Harry's statue. "Well, that can't be right, " she said, annoyed...."

Ok, again, I don't know about tarot cards, but to me it doesn't appear that she's calling herself the questioner in there anywhere. I don't know what them all being spades means, I don't know about the #s involved, but you all, or most of you agree that she prophesies about LV often and correctly. Harry is close by and perhaps she's picked up on him, because of his connection to LV. But again, I know I'm being repetitive, the placement of this in the story, although making it look like it's about Harry, although making it look like it may be about Draco, might really be the foreshadowing of what Harry is about to see in the pensieve.

I also have really missed something in my readings if Harry has been mean to Trelawney. I don't see him disliking anyone who hasn't hurt someone he's cared about. He might not care for her all that much, but dislike is a bit strong for Harry, regarding her.

Also and most important, the reading is a prediction of things to come, like Harry about to see about LVs past, meeting DD. If you all think it's about Harry, then it's not about how Harry feels about Trelawney, but about how he'll eventually feel about her, due to something in their future.

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Madam Pince - Jun 16, 2006 2:25 pm (#22 of 94)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I can definitely see what you're saying, So Sirius. Without the idea that "the questioner" refers to the person asking the cards for info, it's a possibility that it's referring to the upcoming pensieve scene with Tom Riddle and Dumbledore. Tom was definitely a "dark young man" any way you look at it, and Dumbledore was sort-of questioning him, and Tom did seem to dislike Dumbledore even back in that memory. (That particular memory was not the immediately-next scene that was coming up in that visit, though; it came on Harry's next visit.)

Draco's definitely a knave, and his heart was certainly "dark," so it could be that too.

My impression is that Harry does dislike Trelawney. Hate, no. Dislike, yes. But that's just my impression. That's why I took the viewpoint that I did. I thought it was just a wry little joke of JKR's that even accurate card-readings can be set askew by walking past the wrong person or something. (One of the things I read on Wikipedia said that the tarot cards are often wrapped in silk to prevent them being touched by anyone other than the querent and the reader so as not to "contaminate" the reading.) That's a good word for what I think happened -- Harry "contaminated" Trelawney's otherwise accurate reading.

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So Sirius - Jun 16, 2006 2:45 pm (#23 of 94)

Believe me, when I first read it, that's the impression I got too... my problem, as I stated above is, the readings are all about things to come. If it's not, as I suspect, about LV as a boy, then it's either about Draco or Harry at some point to come. I just don't see or read it being about Trelawney. If it's about Harry, then there's someone else, in my opinion, involved.

My other problem is that most her readings involve the situations that have revolved around LV. So, I'm assuming this one's no different and although Draco and Harry both have an involvement in the current LV situation, she could be "channeling" something, with Harry so near, but JKR hasn't involved her seeing things about anyone other than LV so far, even the one about Wormtail was in essence, about LV... so I tend to put Draco out of this one and again, I think that Harry and LV are connected and that might be her conduit.

So, I think Harry or LV are in the running and if it's Harry, it's about something in his future. It could even be as simple as his meeting with the new minister.

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Mattew Bates - Jun 16, 2006 3:31 pm (#24 of 94)

“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
... my problem, as I stated above is, the readings are all about things to come.

I've had a couple of tarot readings from friends. The reader asks the querent to focus on a question. The reader then asks the querent if their question is about the past, the present, the future, or all three, to determine the card layout. So a tarot reading is not always about the future, just about what is unclear to the querent. For example, a pre-Voldey Tom Riddle could have asked a proper seer about his how his father met his mother, or where his father was at the time, or if he would meet his father. Only one was a future question, but all were unknown to him.

So, depending on Trelawney's question, her knave could have been any of the suspects brought up so far.

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Choices - Jun 16, 2006 6:12 pm (#25 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well, I must confess that when I first read that passage where Trelawney says, "Well, that can't be right." I figured she was the questioner and she just couldn't believe that someone didn't like her. Ah, JKR has once more gotten us to speculating over her intended meaning. Does "dark young man" refer to hair color, someone who is depressed and moody, someone into the "dark" arts, someone who spends too much time at the beach??? Who is the questioner and who doesn't like who - is it Trelawney and Harry, Dumbledore and Voldemort/Tom Riddle, Dumbledore and Draco? The possibilities are many and varied for sure.

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Weeny Owl - Jun 17, 2006 3:24 am (#26 of 94)

Go to the search page, and type in:

questioner tarot

There are a few links that might be applicable to what is being discussed here, including a paragraph or two about Draco.

I'm not sure if those posts are the ones anyone is looking for, but they might be.

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Choices - Jun 17, 2006 9:42 am (#27 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think post #913 by Ana Cis on the Looking for Literary Symbolism thread is one of the ones I was thinking about. Wish I could find the others. Thanks for that, Weeny Owl.

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So Sirius - Jun 17, 2006 5:06 pm (#28 of 94)

Mattew, interesting... thanks.

Very interesting posts, thanks Weeny Owl. I just can't help, although the argument for it being Draco is very good, that she used the word dark on purpose. Very clever of her. Most, will think of Harry or as I've done, LV, based on "dark" but of course, it's very possible it is the foreshadowing of Draco and DD on the tower. I just don't know, JKR generally uses Trelawney to foresee LV, but perhaps she is becoming more in tune with her gifts.

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Choices - Jun 17, 2006 6:24 pm (#29 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well, reading Tarot cards may be very different from just making a straight forward prophesy. Perhaps her prophesies only concern Voldemort, but her card reading includes others. Then we have the crystal ball - heaven only knows what she sees in there. LOL

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haymoni - Jun 17, 2006 7:07 pm (#30 of 94)

I thought it was a humorous scene also.

There is violence, there is awful stuff to follow and it revolves around Harry who is always affected by Voldy.

She could still be focused on Voldy but Harry is the dark young man.

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Weeny Owl - Jun 17, 2006 8:15 pm (#31 of 94)

This is one subject that I can't quite decide which way I lean toward.

I could see it being Harry, Voldemort, or Draco, and I think all the reasons behind each opinion are valid.

It is interesting that Trelawney does seem to have her sharpest moments when she's in the midst of a Voldemort prediction, though. Of course, she might have made other equally valid predictions with no one to witness them.

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Solitaire - Jun 17, 2006 11:01 pm (#32 of 94)

Trelawney does seem to have her sharpest moments when she's in the midst of a Voldemort prediction

Alas, she is unaware of them!

Solitaire

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So Sirius - Jun 18, 2006 6:34 am (#33 of 94)

It is interesting. That's been my point. Her odd connection or whatever it is to LV, either makes her a real seer or presents some interesting connection that JKR wants us to see, using her and the fact that when Harry is near only brings that out more, is even more interesting. But, about her being unaware, lol well, we can really say that about her in general, can't we?

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Madam Pince - Jun 18, 2006 6:58 am (#34 of 94)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Diving off into the "pure speculation" area here, but you don't suppose that Voldy got ahold of her somehow, sometime, and tried to use her to figure out the prophecy? That might leave some sort of lingering "connection" depending on what spells he used, perhaps.

She would probably have been gullible enough to be taken in by him in disguise, maybe. And he might have thought it was worth a try -- she was supposed to be a seer, after all.

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Solitaire - Jun 18, 2006 9:24 am (#35 of 94)

The thing about her being a "real seer" is that she does not appear to be aware of any of her true prophecies. In these two instances she seems to be more of an unwitting channel than a true seer. Dollars to donuts she does not remember the prophecy she gave that night in the Hog's Head. We already know she was not aware of havng channeled the one about Voldemort's servant "breaking free" ... the one Harry heard in PoA.

Then again ... Sybill's over-dramatic demeanor concerning her abilities and those who do not understand them are comical to us and off-putting to Witches and Wizards like McGonagall and even Dumbledore. She wants the divining abilities so badly that she attempts to create this "mystical aura" around herself. Consider the darkened room with all that incense she burns. Is she falling victim to her own environment? If she were more down-to-earth in her behavior, perhaps she would look less like an old fraud.

Sybill's drinking further perpetuates the perception of her as a sort of delusional nut. Granted, she has seemed worse to me after her run-in with Umbridge. That seems to have brought on an increase in her weirdness. I also wonder if her apparently increased drinking is a direct result of real things that are actually happening to her. Could she be channeling more messages, perhaps? If so, and if she is unaware of them--do we need another trip to the Prophecy Room?--could the process be further unsettling her mind? She is obviously doing Tarot Card readings that make no sense even to her. It sounds to me like her hold on sanity, which was tenuous at best, is weakening.

Solitaire

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Magic Words - Jun 18, 2006 10:01 am (#36 of 94)

I had a thought the other day while re-watching POA. What determines when prophecies are made, or whom they are made about? When I think of prophecies in general, or the one in OotP, I think of it as something influencing the outcome of a person's life or affecting the world at large, and most of them are made before or shortly after the birth of the subject. So where did the prophecy in POA come from? It was made mere hours before it came to pass, which seems anomalous. I started wondering (and this is pretty out there, I know) if prophecies could be related to changes in the timeline? They predict the future, so they have to do with time. Maybe when somebody doubles back it allows information to be passed back and picked up by seers? What does everybody think?

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So Sirius - Jun 18, 2006 11:05 am (#37 of 94)

Personally Magic, I think her proximity to Harry was the conduit to that particular prophecy. Sure, she made one before he was born, but regarding him and LV, then again, about LV and wormtail, but while Harry was right there and then again, as I've stated, the tarot card reading, with Harry so near... about, well, again, I think it's LV and DD, but then again, who knows. So, to me, JKR is using her as the conduit to tell us something. By appearing flaky and by drinking so much and her blatant hatred of anyone else, especially a Centaur teaching her subject, we can easily dismiss her actions for nonsense and thus, create a scenario, as Hermione and McGonagall do, of pure and utter nonsense. Only we and DD and now Harry, know she's more than meets our eyes. (btw, all 3 of them wear glasses)

As far as LV is concerned, regarding his knowledge of her being the one who prophesied all this... I'm not so sure he knows and if he does, there must be some magical way to extract the memory from her, willingly or unwillingly, as we can assume she has no recollection of it, at all.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 18, 2006 4:01 pm (#38 of 94)

Sybill's drinking further perpetuates the perception of her as a sort of delusional nut. Solitaire

This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask.Sybill's drinking has seemed to get heavier and heavier in each book.Did she drink when we were first introduced to her?I can't recall.Because her drinking seems to be getting heavier, what do you think has caused her to drink more?

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timrew - Jun 18, 2006 4:11 pm (#39 of 94)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Madame Pomfrey:- .......what do you think has caused her to drink more?

It could be the fact that she is anticipating the Death Eaters and Voldie to be waiting for her should she ever leave Hogwarts.................or maybe she just likes it..........

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So Sirius - Jun 18, 2006 4:46 pm (#40 of 94)

Cooking sherry was her drink of choice, yes? Perhaps she was just a horrible cook and when it said to add 1 cup, she assumed 1 bottle.

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Catherine - Jun 18, 2006 5:02 pm (#41 of 94)

Canon Seeker
I don't think we ever knew about/smelled alcohol around Sybill before OoP.

Dipping into the cooking sherry has always been a euphemism for drinking--that the alcohol was purchased for "cooking' purposes, and not imbibing.

Sibyll may have grown up among this sensibility, where ladies did not openly drink alcohol, so her choice is the more "subtle" cooking sherry.

Sibyll makes a point to hide her bottles, so this fits with alcoholic behavior as well as her choice of...um..intoxicant.

Poor Sibyll.

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Choices - Jun 18, 2006 6:15 pm (#42 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, poor Trelawney. I would guess that having to be more or less locked up at Hogwarts has taken it's toll - severe "cabin fever" syndrome. LOL Plus, she seems to be a loner and basically has no friends with whom to share her thoughts. I doubt she is fearful of Voldemort because she has no idea she made a prophesy about him. She goes into a trance, makes the prophesy, and remembers nothing afterward. If she has been kidnapped by Voldemort (HBP), I wonder if she will be destroyed like poor Bertha Jorkins? I don't wonder that her drinking is a result of her pitiful excuse for a life - Umbridge wanting to throw her out was the final degradation for Trelawney.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 18, 2006 11:36 pm (#43 of 94)

Originally I tried to blame Umbridge then did some back reading and found out she drank prior to this.I agree that the scene Umbridge caused in front of the whole school was the final degradation.We know that Winky started drinking because she was given clothes by Crouch Sr. so, maybe we will find out what led to Trelaney's drinking in book 7. Gee,Jo has alot of questions we'd like answered.

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Catherine - Jun 19, 2006 6:51 am (#44 of 94)

Canon Seeker
Hmm...where did Sibyll drink before OoP and the enrance of Umbridge?

I don't recall reading that in the books.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 19, 2006 7:36 am (#45 of 94)

Don't forget that Trelawny feels that she has been put down by Dumbledore through the arrival of Firenze. I think that Sybill realises that she is not as gifted as her ancestor and tries to cover it up with stereotypical bravado. To discover that she made two accurate prophecies about Lord Voldemort in the way she did would probably kill her through shock.

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haymoni - Jun 19, 2006 7:45 am (#46 of 94)

I wonder if anyone will ever tell her??

Minerva may be just as shocked!

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 19, 2006 11:12 am (#47 of 94)

Catherine,I think I might have been mistaken.I had thought that I read in one of the books before OoP that Trelawney smelled of cooking sherry,but now I can't find it.Maybe it was early in OoP.I DO get confunded.

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Catherine - Jun 19, 2006 1:54 pm (#48 of 94)

Canon Seeker
I'll look too. I don't think I remembered reading that before OoP, but that would be interesting if she was already tippling.

We ALL get confunded, Madame Pomfrey!

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Mrs. D. - Jun 22, 2006 3:19 am (#49 of 94)

I guess I am a bit perplexed. I felt Trelawney predicted quite well at times. She was right about Neville breaking the teacup, one of the class leaving them for ever, and sort of right about the grim as well. I think she is so overcome with drama that her bit about one of them leaving forever comes off as a supposed fatality when really it is just Hermione dropping the class.

I have just figured she is often right about little things that are not of much consequence and it is passed over due to her over dramatization of everything. The real big prophecies she knows nothing of; why that should be, I don't know. Maybe that is an ancestor bringing things through.

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Finn BV - Jun 24, 2006 10:19 pm (#50 of 94)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Okay, just browsed through this thread quickly and I have a couple of things:

Connecting Trelawney to Cassandra (which is also the name, uncoincidentally, of Trelawney's great-something grandmother): Cassandra is the prophet, the seer, who possessed the power to correctly predict the future but was never believed by anyone. Sadly, Sibyll is a mix of this: in her non-trance-like modes, nobody believes her; right so, because she is wrong, but in her LV predictions, she is right, and is (usually, though there isn't a "pattern") believed.

Also, about her being unaware of her true predictions: that is exactly what she's been teaching her students since PoA, and only when she forsees correctly does she practice her preaching. She's always said that Sight is natural; therefore, when she goes off on her own and she is not in a sober (pun intended) state, she is telling prophecies only as they come through her, as if she is just the messenger, not the originator.

As for how this relates to LV… well, I suppose JKR wants to make it clear that her connection in these two examples, in cconjunction with Voldemort, is special, but I don't know how.
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Trelawney & LV (Post 51 to 94)

Post  Elanor on Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:22 am

Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 26, 2006 4:16 am (#51 of 94)
Seeing how accident prone Neville is, and easily he believes what people say about him Trelawney's predicition about Neville breaking a cup wasn't that special. Her "prediction" probably caused the accident. Neville believed he was going to break the cup so did. In that way he reacted in a similar style to Mouldy Voldie over the prophesy.

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So Sirius - Jun 26, 2006 7:02 am (#52 of 94)

I don't see her prophecies as self fulfilling at all, Phelim. I happen to think LV, in particular, is an egomaniac and haphazardly took for granted the thing DD warned him against, the magic he discounted. Anyway, Trelawney, in her trances, has prophesied things, mostly, if not totally, in connection to LV. JKR has used her to do this. JKR also wants us, the reader to see her faults and possibly understand that although she's a bit of a flake, you can't judge a book by it's cover, nor can you discount something based on personal beliefs, as McGonagall does and blatantly say something is bogus.

Finn, that's interesting, about Cassandra. I wonder if Trelawney's great gran might have made a prophecy about DD and Grindlewald?

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 26, 2006 7:55 am (#53 of 94)

I don't mean that the Voldemort prophecy is self-fulfilling, though there is an aspect of that as Voldemort (unlike Harry) has chosen to give the prophecy its power. I do believe though that due to Neville's character Trelawney's "prediction" was not as magical as she would claim.

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Solitaire - Jun 26, 2006 3:12 pm (#54 of 94)

Neville believed he was going to break the cup so did.

I completely agree.

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TheSaint - Jun 27, 2006 12:31 am (#55 of 94)

I did find Trelawney's admission that Harry was a wonderful Object. I think any talent she might have possessed in this area was over run by Harry's presence. As seen in the prediction for Lavendar. Turned out not to be the day she had been dreading, but the day Harry had been. He was the one that needed to beware the red headed man. He was jamming any signal she might have been receiving.

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Magic Words - Jun 27, 2006 7:35 am (#56 of 94)

Whoa, what happened on that day and who was the redhead Harry needed to beware of?

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Choices - Jun 27, 2006 10:31 am (#57 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm curious too. Why was Harry dreading that day and who is the redheaded man Harry needed to be wary of???

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 27, 2006 3:51 pm (#58 of 94)

Ok.I'm confused.which happens quite often.Beware the red haired man? Wasn't that meant for Lavender? If so,it could be pretty close to the truth being that she had a love affair with Ron and then got dumped by him.

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TheSaint - Jun 27, 2006 10:03 pm (#59 of 94)

On that day he asked McG if he could go to town without a permission slip...the thing he had been dreading doing, as he knew she would answer 'no'.

Th red headed man, would be Ron in the beginning of GOF, the whole jealousy issue. He seemed to have 'stabbed Harry in the back' so to speak. I believe is was actually addressed to one of the Patel twins...

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 28, 2006 8:08 am (#60 of 94)

I found it.It's in PoA. "By the way,my dear,"she shot suddenly at Parvati Patil,"Beware a red-haired man." I will check and see if anything comes to pass reguarding Parvati and a red headed man.

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The One - Jun 28, 2006 8:42 am (#61 of 94)

Open minded sceptic
I never thought of that, my Saint!

But it is quite true, those two predictions made about Harry would in fact make sense.

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Mattew Bates - Jun 28, 2006 8:53 am (#62 of 94)

“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
So, unless she's in a trance, she makes accurate predictions, but at the wrong target? I'm finding that a bit tough to swallow across the board, because she kept predicting Harry's imminent demise for almost the whole time Harry took Divination, and nobody in the class died while Harry was taking it. It's like Nostradamus - if one makes enough predictions and those seeking to accredit them are allowed to cherry-pick and interpret at will, then anyone can be a seer. Put me in the McGonagall camp.

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rambkowalczyk - Jun 28, 2006 9:29 am (#63 of 94)

I started wondering (and this is pretty out there, I know) if prophecies could be related to changes in the timeline? They predict the future, so they have to do with time. Maybe when somebody doubles back it allows information to be passed back and picked up by seers? What does everybody think? Magic Words.

I think it is a possibility. Most prophecies would be given at birth, or as a warning, (in real life consider the biblical warnings of disaster if Israel continued its idolatry)or as consolation, as reason for hope (in real life biblical hope of a messiah, in HP of the one who would defeat the dark lord.

One could say that Sybil's second prophecy is a warning. But if we follow Rowling's analogy that some prophecies can be ignored and therefore will not come to pass this prophecy doesn't pass that test.

Harry wasn't thinking of the prophecy when he stopped Wormtail's death. Unlike Voldemort who tried to stop the prophecy as thus insure it would happen, Harry did not try to prevent this prophecy and insure this would happen. Yet the prophecy happened.

So Sybil's second prophecy does not conform to prophet standards. So why did it come true? I think the possibility of time turner use would be a way of knowing what the future could be. The only problem is at the time Sybil gave the prophecy Harry and Hermione weren't in two places.

Two things about real life prophecies.

One is that in the Christian bible most of the prophecies that were written (book of Daniel) were actually written after they happened, and made to look like they were warnings before they happened.

The other is an article by Isaac Asimov. He researched the times when Halley's comet passed by and was able to show disasters that occurred around then. But his conclusion wasn't that the comet caused the disasters but that if you were to take any 70 period, you would be able to find a disaster.

Sybil can make lots of predictions. We just remember the ones that come true.

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TheSaint - Jun 28, 2006 6:38 pm (#64 of 94)

Ohh...did Sybil's predictions of Harry's ultimate death change after Volde took his blood? I remember she kept saying that is was hovering..getting closer and closer...and then at some point (after he presumedly helped her) She predicts him to live a long life and father 12 children or some such rot. Was that after the blood exchange? Does she predict his timely death at any point after this occurs?



breaks out books...again!*

And Madame - Isn't one of the Parvati twins Ron's date to the Ball..where he totally ignored her?

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geauxtigers - Jun 28, 2006 6:50 pm (#65 of 94)

Yum!
I remember she kept saying that is was hovering..getting closer and closer...and then at some point (after he presumedly helped her) She predicts him to live a long life and father 12 children or some such rot. Was that after the blood exchange? Does she predict his timely death at any point after this occurs?

I think this was right after Quibbler interview, when all the teachers were showing Harry that they believed him or supported him, but could come out and say it as it was agaisnt the old toad's educational degrees. Flitwick gave him sugar mice, Sprout gave Harry 10 points for handing her the watering can and Trelawney announced that Harry wasn't going to suffer a tragic death at all, but live to an old age and have 12 kids. Could that be a correct prediction, just like her others, maybe Jo is hinting that Harry will infact live and have 12 kids..... going to mull this over some more, I think I'm severly overanalyzing again...

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Magic Words - Jun 29, 2006 8:34 am (#66 of 94)

So what you're saying, Saint, is that her predictions of death were actually predicting Voldemort's rebirth? Hmm...

And she doesn't even know she ever said "neither can live while the other survives."

Okay, JKR, I've had enough. Just tell us what happens!!!!!!!

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haymoni - Jun 29, 2006 8:50 am (#67 of 94)

Here, here!

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Finn BV - Jun 29, 2006 2:41 pm (#68 of 94)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Tori, that's actually a really interesting idea. Trelawney "predicts" this (or does she?) when Umbridge is sitting in on the class too.

But being able to determine whether Harry lives or not by examining this prediction would certainly call for in-depth analysis of all the predictions Trelawney made.

Saint, it's Padma, not Parvati, that goes to the ball with Ron.

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TheSaint - Jun 29, 2006 3:50 pm (#69 of 94)

Ah..Thanks Finn. I knew it was a Patel...but not which. That is even better..as Parvarti had no interaction with the red-haired man...but Harry did.

I don't think she saw Volde's rebirth... but Harry's fate prior to that one act.

My sense is that she actually was seeing Harry's impending death. I think through the first four he was going to die, but Volde changed all that when he took Harry's blood. Something about that exchanged has changed Harry's fate.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 29, 2006 8:16 pm (#70 of 94)

Finn beat me to it.It was Padma. Trelawney, has predicted doom over and over for Harry,but hasn't since the rebirth(Voldemort took Harry's blood.) Nice catch,Saint. It looks like the only reason she gives Harry a break(live to a ripe old age,have 12 kids,and become MoM) is because of the interview he gave that infuriated Umbridge,who she hates.She could have predicted doom for him at the beginning of the book,before Umbridge,but she didn't. I like it.Harry will live.

Trelawney predicted grave danger for Umbridge,under stress by Umbridge of course,but still,she did get attacked and kidnapped by the centaurs.Not to mention,we still have book 7 to go and I can see Umbridge in GRAVE danger..I think she will die.

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Soul Search - Jun 30, 2006 8:19 am (#71 of 94)

It would be more appropriate for Umbridge to get a visit from the dementors she sent to #4 Privet Drive. That may better fulfil Trelawney's prediction, anyway.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 30, 2006 10:25 am (#72 of 94)

Thats true.She did predict "something dark."

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haymoni - Jun 30, 2006 10:43 am (#73 of 94)

I just want her to pick up the wrong pen sometime.

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Choices - Jun 30, 2006 11:23 am (#74 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
LOL @ Haymoni - me too!!!

In one of her classes, Trelawney says Harry must have been born in winter. Harry tells her, no, he was born in July. Trelawney was reading Voldemort (born Dec. 31) in Harry. When she predicts doom for Harry, maybe she is again reading Voldemort. It is Voldemort who is doomed, not Harry. (I hope, I hope!!)

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Solitaire - Jun 30, 2006 11:40 am (#75 of 94)

Good catch, Choices! I hope you are right. **fingers crossed for Harry**

Solitaire

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TheSaint - Jun 30, 2006 2:59 pm (#76 of 94)

Trelawney was reading Voldemort (born Dec. 31) in Harry.

Watch out Choices..that almost sounded like a pro-Harry is a Horcrux post! LOL

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Choices - Jun 30, 2006 6:27 pm (#77 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
LOL It did, didn't it? I do believe that a part of Voldemort is in Harry..... but his powers, not his soul.

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Magic Words - Jun 30, 2006 7:29 pm (#78 of 94)

"Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?"

"It certainly seems so."

-CoS

I don't have the book, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate. So Choices, canon agrees with you. We don't know whether canon will take it further, and I won't get into that on this thread, but whatever you believe about Horcruxes, there is a basis for Trelawney to look at Harry and possibly read Voldemort.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 1, 2006 5:13 am (#79 of 94)

Ooh.That is a good catch, Choices! I'm beginning to wonder if Trelawney isn't dead-on with some of her predictions. Geez..McGonagall and Hermione would be appalled at that statement.

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Choices - Jul 1, 2006 10:51 am (#80 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree - I think she is picking up the right vibes/messages, but she just applies them to the wrong person. LOL

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Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 11:39 am (#81 of 94)

I think she is picking up the right vibes/messages, but she just applies them to the wrong person.

Do you think this could be due to an unwillingness to wait and let things "brew"? She seems to instantly want to interpret any messages or visions of which she is aware rather than watching and waiting for an overall picture. I think this might be why she is not taken seriously, or why her predictions are only understood after the fact. Perhaps if she waited for a bit of clarity, what she had to say might be of more help to everyone ... including herself.

Solitaire

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Choices - Jul 1, 2006 11:48 am (#82 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I do think that might help in some instances, but she would really have no way of knowing that Voldemort's powers reside in Harry and that it was Voldemort she is really "reading" or sensing in Harry. Also, I think Trelawney might think that if she doesn't give the "prophesy" immediately, it might come true and she wouldn't get the credit for predicting it. She is so sensitive about people thinking she is a fake, I think she would grab every chance to prove herself competent.

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Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 12:00 pm (#83 of 94)

Alas, in doing so she makes herself look less competent in the short-run.

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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 1, 2006 2:53 pm (#84 of 94)

No day but Today
I love this thread. Those of you who think she is reading Voldie through Harry: If the predictions of death were really for Voldie, not Harry, now that she has stopped making them does that mean that Voldie won't die? Or just perhaps that now that he is "human" he is not as close to death?

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 1, 2006 5:34 pm (#85 of 94)

Well,we know that she hasn't predicted his death since Voldemort took Harry's blood,but also Voldemort has now used occlumency against Harry,so I think this may be why she is no longer reading predictions for Voldemort.

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TheSaint - Jul 1, 2006 5:47 pm (#86 of 94)

I do not feel she is reading Voldemort through Harry..I think she is reading Harry, she can however feel or sense the part of Voldemort in Harry, that I choose to call a Horcrux (and Choices does not..lol) thus assigning the wrong season of birth for Harry.

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So Sirius - Jul 2, 2006 10:48 am (#87 of 94)

I'm not so sure that Harry is the conduit to Trelawney's predictions regarding LV, as she made the initial one, the prophecy, before Harry's birth. She definitely has a line to LV though. Is it JKR using her to give us this insight, or is there something more to it? Anyway, if this is the case and she's picking up things more intuitively when Harry is close by, regarding LV, then it might stand to reason that there is a bit of LV (his soul, perhaps) in Harry.

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TheSaint - Jul 2, 2006 12:42 pm (#88 of 94)

Again, I do not think it is LV she is reading, it is Harry. But..I will check to see if what Voldemort has come to dread also happened on the day in question? It is possible. I wonder..does Volde have to beware of the red-haired man?

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Choices - Jul 2, 2006 1:01 pm (#89 of 94)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think it would be presumptious of us to believe that every one of Trelawney's predictions concerns Harry and Voldemort - I think they are sprinkled in amongst other minor predictions that she makes to other students.

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TheSaint - Jul 2, 2006 2:05 pm (#90 of 94)

I presume nothing. I have shown that the one about that day was more than likely related to Harry..not Lavendar. I want to see if any of the others that were off for her could be related to Voldemort.

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haymoni - Jul 3, 2006 4:59 am (#91 of 94)

MMM...Dumbledore was red-haired!

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So Sirius - Jul 3, 2006 12:13 pm (#92 of 94)

DD had Auburn hair. There is a distinction, or she would have just described him with red hair.

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haymoni - Jul 4, 2006 4:57 am (#93 of 94)

I think "reddish" when I see auburn hair.

It is typical Trelawney - vague enough to be right!

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Mattew Bates - Jul 6, 2006 10:25 am (#94 of 94)

“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
Hm. After mulling over some of these posts, I think it is entirely likely that Trelawney's early predictions of Harry's untimely demise could have been due to an oversensitivity to Voldemort. Vapormort was in a perpetual near-death state at the time, and he has that unusual connection to Harry. So, through Harry, she felt something in a near-death state, and was quick to jump to the conclusion that Harry would die soon. I'm starting to give the old fraud more credit, too.
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