What can we learn from Harry's Dreams?

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What can we learn from Harry's Dreams?

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:29 am

What can we learn from Harry's Dreams?

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

Soul Search - Dec 22, 2005 8:56 am
Edited by Kip Carter May 2, 2006 12:23 am
Harry has dreams. Different kinds of dreams: fantasy dreams, dreams that share Voldemort's mind, and some dreams that foreshadow events.

Fantasy dreams are like the one in OotP with Cho Chang and chocolate frog cards. No particular meaning (I think.)

There are also the "dreams" where Harry is connected to Voldemort. Like at the beginning of GoF and throughout OotP. These are part of the storyline and meaning is, or becomes, obvious.

Then there are dreams that may tell, or foretell, something. For example, in SS, "The Vanishing Glass:"

"He rolled onto his back and tried to remember the dream he had been having. It had been a good one. There had been a flying motorcycle in it. He had a funny feeling he'd had the same dream before."
Later in the chapter, in the car, on the way to the zoo, Harry mentions the flying motorcycle from the dream.

This dream establishes that Harry can remember things from when he was a year old. This will come up again. We, the readers, know that Harry arrived at Privet Drive on a flying motorcycle, driven by Hagrid (who we will meet again soon) and that the motorcycle belonged to Sirius Black.

Later in the chapter we learn:
" When he had been younger, Harry had dreamed and dreamed of some unknown relation coming to take him away, but it had never happened."
In "The Keeper of the Keys" Hagrid busts down the door to get Harry and take him away.

So, Harry's dreams foretell Hagrid coming for Harry, and that we will see Sirius Black (godfather, sort of a relation.) We still haven't seen the motorcycle, but I am hopeful.

JKR puts these dreams in to prepare the reader for events and characters in the storyline; the technique is part of her writing style.

So, which of Harry's dreams foretell coming events? In particular, are there any dreams that may contain hints about what is to happen in Book Seven?
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What can we learn from Harry's Dreams? (Post 1 to 64)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:30 am

Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Dec 23, 2005 9:20 pm (#1 of 64)
Well, a lot of dreams were not exactly the same as Harry's dream about the flying motorcycle. When Voldemort decided to show Harry some things in order to gain Harry's trust in this connection, Voldemort had learned that he could manipulate Harry. Voldemort didn't seem to figure this connection out until after he had killed Frank, the old man, as there would seemingly be no real point in sharing this. I thus believe that some information in the dreams is relevant to the story to come and others don't really show anything that is to come. That said, here's what I think about Harry's dream about the motorcycle and what it tells us, if anything.

First of all, one must attempt to understand exactly what brought this dream about. It could be argued that this was simply an introduction of magic to the reader, one of the first of Harry's connection to the magical world. It gives information in the exposition, setting up information that is important to be able to understand the main character. As the story starts en medias res (in the middle of the story), information must be given to form a connection between the first meeting of Harry as a baby and then to Harry's life now. This is how the dream carries vital information that is telling of the story.

One must also decide how this dream has happened. It is obviously (correct me if I'm wrong) not an intrusion upon the thoughts of Voldemort. It seems that Harry has an unusual ability to remember things that have happened before Harry had developed language skills. Normal memory for most people starts at around seven or eight, with some details included from younger ages. How is it Harry is able to bring about these past memories?

Well, we know that the dementors can bring about the terrible memories of the night that Voldemort murdered Harry's parents. So we know that repeated examples are there that would demonstrate that Harry remembers this night very well.

It is possible to argue that Harry's memory is simply attributed to a traumatic experience in life. It seems to have the effect of any traumatic memory, in that is has not left the carrier of the memory, but has been locked away within the subconscious.

It is thus my opinion that Harry can not bring this memory out voluntarily. He needs help. He can of course use dementors to bring out these memories (not that he would want to). Or, he can enter into the realm on the unconscious. He can remember things that have happened in the deep past by using something that can penetrate into the unconscious (dream).

From all of this, it is my belief that dreams will not be able to tell Harry any more about anything. Unless Voldemort for some reason gives up Occlumency against Harry (which seems unlikely as it would be unimaginative for JKR to simply repeat past plots) in order to try and corrupt Harry again, dreams will not be able to reveal anything for Harry. (And if Harry had any more dreams, he would hopefully listen to Hermoine, as she would of course (assuming Harry entrusted her with the knowledge of this dream, as he normally trusts her) point out that the dream may be unreliable due to the fact that Voldemort might again be tampering with Harry's mind.) This motorcycle dream only shows things that have happened in Harry's life, and other dreams like this would only, in my opinion, be important for the first year of Harry's life. After that (correct me if my timing's off) Harry is at the Dursleys and no great magical event has taken place that will help Harry later on. I don't believe anything else would have possibly been remembered, as again Harry's laguage skills had not developed and Harry's true working memory would not have been sparked. Anything that has already been revealed to the reader and Harry both has come after Harry had turned eleven, and Harry would not have to dig into his subconscious to find it. Simple things like remembering the locket at Number Twelve Grimmauld Place would simply come to Harry as it naturally does (such as when Harry remembers Nicholas Flamel from Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog card.)

That is all speculation of course. I'm interested in everyone else's ideas.

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Troels Forchhammer - Dec 24, 2005 8:33 am (#2 of 64)

It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal nothing. - Frodo Baggins, /The Return of the King/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
I just wanted say that I think a thread on Harry's dreams is a brilliant idea. When I get back to my own computer, I'll look up some of the stuff I've written earlier on the subject. At this point I'll just mention that the dream Harry had on his first night at Hogwarts was, IMO, extremely interesting from a clue-seeking point of view.

Regards,
Troels

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Soul Search - Dec 24, 2005 9:55 am (#3 of 64)

Just to emphasize the point of the topic, its what can we readers learn from Harry's dreams. Those Dreams that are not from his link with Voldemort (GoF, OotP.) Harry doesn't seem to learn anything from his dreams; he doesn't even remember most of them.

On previous readings, I think I discounted Harry's dreams, until I recognized that JKR was using dreams to emphasize previous storyline and foretell future events. Problem is, I needed to re-read each book with this in mind to get anything out of it.

Your right, Troels. That dream is most interesting.

A bit of leadin first.

Harry has been sorted into Gryffindor, but the hat had said "he would do well in Slytherine." Harry was forceful about "not Slytherine."

At the welcoming feast, Harry spots Quirrel "... looking very peculiar in a large purple turban." Later, Harry sees Quirrell talking to Snape, and Snape focuses on Harry and "-- a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead."

Harry goes to the dormitory, then has a very strange dream.

"He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherine; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully -- and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it -- then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold -- there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking."
Harry didn't remember this dream.

There is a lot here. We know Voldemort was behind Quirrell's turban, and caused Harry's scar to hurt. Harry, however, thought Snape.

Was this just a dream, or the first example of the link between Harry and Voldemort?

The burst of green light; Harry remembering the last time he encountered Voldemort at Godric's Hollow? Does this dream hint that Snape was also at Godric's Hollow?

What could Draco turning into Snape mean?

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Weeny Owl - Dec 24, 2005 1:18 pm (#4 of 64)

Later in the chapter we learn:

" When he had been younger, Harry had dreamed and dreamed of some unknown relation coming to take him away, but it had never happened."

In "The Keeper of the Keys" Hagrid busts down the door to get Harry and take him away.

==== It could be a foretelling of Hagrid coming to get him at the hut on the rock, but I thought it might also be him being taken away after Godric's Hollow.

As for memories starting at seven or eight, mine go back much more than that. I remember many details about my life before school. I don't remember what happened at one or two, but I do have a few from three or four, and quite a lot after that.

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Soul Search - Dec 24, 2005 2:54 pm (#5 of 64)

Interesting, Weeny Owl. Hagrid took him away from the wrecked Godric's Hollow and came for him at the Hut On the Rock. I'm not sure how much we can read into it though. Dreaming of someone coming to take you out of misery must be common among disadvantaged kids.

I, too, have memories from before I was seven. I started school when I was five, and well remember that. Sometimes, though, it is difficult to separate memories from those little tales about me my parents frequently told their friends.

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wynnleaf - Dec 24, 2005 3:27 pm (#6 of 64)

I tend to think JKR means for the dreams Harry has of his past to be actual memories -- perhaps a little confused.

I have conscious memories back to when I was 2, and can distinctly remember my 3rd birthday. Several of my kids can remember back that to that early an age also. So for JKR to have Harry have subconscious memories of his parent's deaths doesn't seem too far a stretch to me.

I find the dreams that could be foreshadowing of the future more fascinating.

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Puck - Dec 28, 2005 7:58 am (#7 of 64)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
The turban tightening around his head seems quite sanke-like, doesn't it?

And didn't we just see Draco run off with Snape?

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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Dec 28, 2005 3:30 pm (#8 of 64)

I would simply like to clarify that I didn't say that nothing was remembered before the age of seven. I simply meant that remembering stuff like daily life usually comes around seven or eight. I, too, remember a few birthdays and some other things scattered between ages 3 and 6, but I don't remember how I normally spent my time, just some significant days in my earlier life. If you can remember the how you usually went about your day at age four (not what your parents told you, but what you actually remember) you're very perceptive. The more power to you.

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haymoni - Dec 29, 2005 7:24 am (#9 of 64)

I can't remember what I did yesterday!!!

Other than go to the Forum, that is!

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Verbina - Dec 29, 2005 7:22 pm (#10 of 64)

Image by me. Base by Nefertiti at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
In PoA, if I remember correctly, Harry dreamed of running through the forest and something white moving before him, just out of reach and barely in sight. Later...it is told to Harry that not only was his patronus a huge white stag but his father's animagus form was a stag. It is almost as if he knew what his patronus was but until the night he saved Sirius, he had no idea what it looked like fully formed. I always found this dream intriguing to say the least.

I will have to scour through my books to find other dreams. None stick out from HBP...were there any?

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Mrs Brisbee - Dec 29, 2005 8:00 pm (#11 of 64)

In HBP, Chapter 21 "The Unknowable Room" (But don't hold me to this I'm going on memory) Harry dreams that Draco turns into Slughorn, and then Slughorn turns into Snape. No idea what it means, but it is very similar to the bit of oneiromancy from PS/SS where Draco turns into Snape, who then turns into Voldemort.

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Soul Search - Dec 30, 2005 9:17 am (#12 of 64)

Good pickup, Mrs Brisbee. The passage is:

"... and his dreams, when he finally fell asleep, were broken and disturbed by images of Malfoy, who turned into Slughorn, who turned into Snape . ..."


Very curious. If we compare it to the dream cited in Post #3:
-- and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it -- then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, ..."
.

We have two dreams, one from SS and one from HBP, where Malfoy turns into Snape.

Best I can come up with is both Malfoy and Snape will play significant roles in book seven. Not a particular surprise. Maybe there's more, though.
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haymoni - Dec 30, 2005 10:37 am (#13 of 64)

Malfoy is to Harry as Snape was to James.

Malfoy is becoming as bad an enemy as Snape was.

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Puck - Dec 30, 2005 3:27 pm (#14 of 64)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
An enemy possibly turned ally.

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Choices - Dec 30, 2005 7:21 pm (#15 of 64)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
It is interesting that in two dreams Malfoy (was it Draco or Lucius?) turns into Snape. If it is Draco, it is even more interesting to me because I had a theory once that perhaps Draco was related to Snape. Draco is the only student that Snape calls by his first name and Snape seems particularly "fond" of Draco or at least more tolerant of him. Snape even was willing to take an unbreakable vow to protect Draco - why? Why would Snape care what happens to Draco? He doesn't seem to really care about any of the students - with the possible exception of Draco. Is it just because of Snape's association with Lucius? What goes on here?

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Puck - Dec 30, 2005 7:31 pm (#16 of 64)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
Actually, I would guess it has more to do with an association between Snape and Narcissa. We didn't see Snape on the black family tree, so I doubt they are related.

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Norbert not a common welsh green - Dec 31, 2005 8:46 am (#17 of 64)

Snapes Father is a Muggle. Mother black would have blasted Eilien Prince of the family three when she married. (assuming she was there in the first place)

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Soul Search - Dec 31, 2005 9:57 am (#18 of 64)

Frustrating. Draco turning into Snape in two dreams has to be a clue. But what?

Just a thought.

Snape was a death eater, but turned against Voldemort. Full reason not yet known, but likely important to the storyline.

Through five books, Draco was supportive of Voldemort's "pure-blood" precepts. Draco started HBP proud of becoming a death eater and having been given a task by Voldemort. In time, his pride changed to distress and fear. At the end of HBP Snape helps Draco escape, likely to go into hiding from Voldemort.

Do the dreams tell us that, like Snape, Draco will turn actively against Voldemort? Maybe supporting Harry?

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Choices - Dec 31, 2005 12:12 pm (#19 of 64)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
My theory was that perhaps Snape was married to Lucius Malfoy's sister and Voldemort killed her - thus causing Snape to vow revenge on Voldemort. Snape's child (Draco) was given over to the Malfoys (who were childless) to raise because Snape needed to concentrate on getting revenge for his wife's murder. Snape went to Dumbledore and offered to turn spy for the Order to get closer to Voldemort. Draco has never been told that Snape is his father. I think this could be the reason Snape is willing to risk his life for Draco and also why Dumbledore trusts Snape - he knows about Snape's past and his hatred for Voldemort. Just a wild idea, but it would explain some things. Oh yes....Snape's wife was blond like Lucius and Draco takes after her. LOL

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Solitaire - Dec 31, 2005 1:19 pm (#20 of 64)

Given his feelings about Half-bloods, I should think it dubious that Lucius would agree to raise such a child as his own. Even if he had agreed, in Borgin & Burkes at the beginning of CoS, remember that Lucius admonishes Draco for letting the Muggle-born Hermione out-perform him at Hogwarts. He does not seem to be talking to a Half-blood child here. Then, in Spinner's End, Narcissa implies that Draco has been chosen by Voldemort in order to punish Lucius. If Draco were not Lucius's child, would putting him in danger be that much of a punishment to the cold-blooded Lucius? I can't see it. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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Choices - Dec 31, 2005 7:30 pm (#21 of 64)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree it's a wacky theory, but I was reminded of it by the dreams where Draco turns into Snape. I guess "like father, like son" sprang to mind. I shall send this theory back to that far, cobweb covered corner of my brain and warn it never to show it's greasy head again. LOL

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Puck - Jan 1, 2006 2:15 pm (#22 of 64)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think the two are linked in Harry's mind. Enemy's he cannot trust, will not trust. He is suspicious of both. He thought Snape wa after the Stone, that Draco opened the chamber.... Until now his suspicions never held up.

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Soul Search - Jan 1, 2006 5:42 pm (#23 of 64)

I agree, Puck, that Harry considers both Draco and Snape enemies. The dreams may be communicating only that.

But, why was the HBP dream Draco ---> Slughorn ---> Snape? Does Harry mistrust Slughorn, too?

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Verbina - Jan 1, 2006 8:05 pm (#24 of 64)

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I got the impression that Harry didn't entirely like Slughorn. Slughorn collected people...associations and really didn't seem to care all too much for the person themselves. But I don't think that he mistrusts him or anything. That's just the impression I got.

I find it interesting though... int he first dream, Draco turns into Snape. Snape has a long time association with Draco. In the second dream, Draco turns into Slughorn then Snape.... though Draco does not have a long time association with Slughorn...in fact Slughorn snubs him. Just an odd point in the comparison.

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Puck - Jan 1, 2006 9:12 pm (#25 of 64)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
They are all in the same house, and all are associated -in one way or another- with LV.

They are also all on Harry's mind. Puzzles/obstacles he needs to figure out.

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Soul Search - Jan 3, 2006 2:55 pm (#26 of 64)

Well, I have re-listened to CoS and can find only one dream of Harry's. At the end of "The Worst Birthday:"

"He dreamed that he was on show in a zoo, with a card reading UNDERAGE WIZARD attached to his cage. People goggled through the bars at him as he lay, starving and weak, on a bed of straw. He saw Dobby's face in the crowd and shouted out, asking for help, but Dobby called, "Harry Potter is safe there, sir!" and vanished. Then the Dursleys appeared and Dudley rattled the bars of the cage, laughing at him."

Then Ron and the twins show up at Harry's bedroom window, in the flying car.

This dream seems to pertain only to the CoS storyline.

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Soul Search - Jan 4, 2006 6:53 pm (#27 of 64)

In PoA, Harry has dementor inspired "visions" and a couple of sleeping dreams. The visions are the core of what we know of what happened at Godric's Hollow and are well discussed on other topics.

The first dream occurs in "The Marauder's Map."

"Because Harry knew who that screaming voice belonged to now. He had heard her words, heard them over and over again during the night hours in the hospital wing while he lay awake, staring at the strips of moonlight on the ceiling. When the dementors approached him, he heard the last moments of his mother's life, her attempts to protect him, Harry, from Lord Voldemort, and Voldemort's laughter before he murdered her....
Harry dozed fitfully, sinking into dreams full of clammy, rotted hands and petrified pleading, jerking awake to dwell again on his mother's voice."

Clearly related to the dementor visions, but I don't quite know how "clammy, rotted hands" fit with anything.

Verbina mentioned the next dream in an earlier post. In "Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw:"
"He had a very strange dream. He was walking through a forest, his Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery-white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of it between the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run, and ahead he heard hooves gathering speed. Now he was running flat out, and ahead he could hear galloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and -

"AAARRGGHH! NOOO!"

Harry woke as suddenly as though he'd been hit in the face."
A major theme in PoA is Harry's desire to learn about his parents, and particularly James. I think this dream reflects this.

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vball man - Jan 8, 2006 7:42 am (#28 of 64)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Here's a couple thoughts:

Harry was "dreaming" that a long lost relative would rescue him from the Dursleys in book 1. I think that was a waking type "dream." More "I so wish that this would happen."

I think one thing that JKR does with these dreams is suggest who is the bad guy for the book is. The turbin says bad things - "transfer to Slytherin" - it's connected with Snape. This casts suspicion on Snape. Snape is the major red herring for book one. We are to think that Snape is after the stone for Voldie.

I think that she uses the same thing to cast suspicion on Slughorn in HBP.

As far as the theme "transfer to Slytherin," this used to be part of my RBL theory - that a major aspect of book 7 would be the choice Harry would have to turn evil and Harry's struggle with that temptation. HBP has dashed some aspects of RBL, but I'm not sure about the potential "transfer."

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Soul Search - Jan 8, 2006 9:59 am (#29 of 64)

vball man,

I like your suggestion:

"I think one thing that JKR does with these dreams is suggest who is the bad guy for the book is."

It works for SS, but I don't see an obvious connection for CoS or PoA. Sirius was mentioned on the muggle newscast, maybe that replaced a dream, even though Sirius didn't turn out to be a "bad guy," in the end. PoA doesn't really have a "bad guy," unless we elect Fudge to the position.

It does work for GoF, with Voldemort identified as the "bad guy" for the book.

Have to check for OotP and HBP.

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Rosariana - Jan 8, 2006 10:55 am (#30 of 64)

PoA sort of has a bad guy - Peter Pettigrew. And in fact Harry does have a dream about him, in which he resembles Neville Longbottom. In the dream though, Pettigrew was a victim and not a perpetrator.

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Soul Search - Jan 8, 2006 11:35 am (#31 of 64)

Good one, Rosariana. I missed that one. Harry isn't asleep, so it is more of a fantasy than a "dream," but your right about foreshadowing Pettigrew as "bad guy."

PoA, Chaper Eleven, The Firebolt

But Harry still, pretending to be asleep. He heard Ron leave again, and rolled over on his back, his eyes wide open.

A hatred such as he had never known before was coursing through Harry like poison. He could see Black laughing at him through the darkness, as though somebody had pasted the picture from the album over his eyes. He watched, as though somebody was playing him a piece of film, Sirius Black blasting Peter Pettigrew (who resembled Neville Longbottom) into a thousand pieces. He could hear (though having no idea what Black's voice might sound like) a low, excited mutter. "It has happened, My Lord... the Potters have made me their Secret-Keeper and then came another voice, laughing shrilly, the same laugh that Harry heard inside his head whenever the dementors drew near....
vball man, it also establishes Sirius as a major "red herring." I don't get anything else from it, though.

Did I miss anything is CoS that would serve vball man's suggestion?

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Weeny Owl - Jan 9, 2006 10:58 am (#32 of 64)

As for the dementors, this is part of their description of their hands: "glistening, grayish, slimy-looking, and scabbed".

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gusmania - Jan 11, 2006 5:15 am (#33 of 64)

I came across this dream:

"The locket… the cup… something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaw's … This mantra seemed to pulse through Harry's mind as he fell asleep at night, and his dreams were thick with cups, lockets and mysterious objects that he could not quite reach, though Dumbledore helpfully offered Harry a rope ladder that turned to snakes the moment he began to climb…" HBP pg.592

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Soul Search - Jan 13, 2006 5:45 pm (#34 of 64)

That is a good one, gusmania. Since it is at the end of HBP, it might also contain clues for book 7. Worth a close look. Page 636 in my US edition.

"There might still be as many as four horcruxes out there somewhere, and each would need to be found and eliminated before there was even a possibility that Voldemort could be killed. He kept reciting their names to himself, as though by listing them he could bring them within easy reach:the locket...the cup...the snake...something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaw's...the locket...the cup...the snake...something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaw's...
This mantra seemed to pulse through Harry's mind as he fell asleep at night, and his dreams were thick with cups, lockets and mysterious objects that he could not quite reach, though Dumbledore helpfully offered Harry a rope ladder that turned to snakes the moment he began to climb..."

I thought the "as many as four horcruxes out there" phrase a little odd; is there any suggestion other than four?

There has been some question about, when Harry "defeats" Voldemort, whether Harry would damage his soul by actually killing him. This passage seems say Harry will kill Voldemort.

The mantra confirms the locket, cup, Nagini, etc. Does it also suggest the order Harry will destroy the horcruxes?

Does the phrase "Dumbledore helpfully offered Harry a rope ladder" tell us that Dumbledore, in some form, will help Harry in book 7?

But, what about Dumbledore's "help" turning into Snakes?
Snake --> Slytherin --> Snape.
Snape will be Dumbledore's help!

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Rosariana - Jan 13, 2006 9:35 pm (#35 of 64)

Wow! Round of applause for Soul Search! Brilliant. Whereas I just found that dream confusing, you have found foreshadowing for the end of the series in it. Bravo!

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Soul Search - Jan 15, 2006 9:15 am (#36 of 64)

Thanks Rosariana. The more I think about it, the more I like the suggested foreshadowing.

The "as many as four horcruxes out there" phrase still bothers me a bit, though. Why not a phrase that more established "four" as a certainty? Why allow any doubt?

Ah, ha. Harry's scar is a horcrux!

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Puck - Jan 15, 2006 10:32 am (#37 of 64)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think the doubt in Harry's mind comes from the fact that it is not certain that LV had a chance to make all 6.

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Sticky Glue - Jan 15, 2006 1:42 pm (#38 of 64)

Or has he made more Horcrux's once he knew the the diary or other Hurcrux's have been destroyed.

We also don't know if the locket Horcrux has been destroyed, or just taken and replaced with a fake by R.A.B

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Stephanie M. - Jan 15, 2006 3:26 pm (#39 of 64)

I just have to say, that I really like Soul Search's explanation/theory of the HBP dream.

When I was reading HBP, I was always thinking why would he only make 7 Horcruxes, he could make more because I'm sure he has killed more than 7 people. But I don't think that he could have made much more than 7 because if Harry had to figure out which are the Horcruxes and then destroy all of them, the book would be very long.

And if there are 7 horcruxes, then we know one is already destroyed, and the locket Horcrux might have also been destroyed, and that would only leave Harry with 5 more. And I do think that in some way Dumbledore will help Harry, but if Harry does get help from Snape, then Harry will actually use the advice later on in the book. He won't think that Snape is on his side. That is just my opinion. I need more time to think about it. Plus, I really need to reread all of the books.

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Rosariana - Jan 15, 2006 4:27 pm (#40 of 64)

Actually, Stephanie M, I think we can be fairly certain that 2 Horcruxes have been destroyed (if we trust Dumbledore) -- the diary and the ring. This leaves four more, assuming Voldemort succeeded in making six and RAB did not destroy the locket from the cave. The seventh bit of Voldemort's soul will remain in his body and will depart when Harry kills him, having no remaining Horcruxes to prevent its departure.

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Solitaire - Jan 15, 2006 9:23 pm (#41 of 64)

Remember Bella's comment to Snape in Spinner's End about Snape not having revealed the Headquarters of the Order? Is it possible that Voldemort knows the locket is missing and suspects that it might be hidden wherever the Order has its headquarters?

Or ... Do we know for certain that Regulus was murdered? Sirius is not positive who murdered him. He seems to think that Regulus was not important enough to have been murdered by Voldemort himself. What if he died while trying to destroy that Horcrux? Dumbledore seems to have been seriously injured while destroying the ring, so it seems possible one could die in the attempt. Or perhaps Voldemort did kill him ... if he was, indeed, the one who took the locket.

Solitaire

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gusmania - Jan 19, 2006 5:08 am (#42 of 64)

The golden locket at Grimbaudsplace looked as solid as ever, so I doubt it that it is destroyed, Solitaire. I just don't think R.A.B. has managed that.

Soul Search suggested in message 34 that this phrase " Dumbledore helpfully offered Harry a rope ladder that turned to snakes the moment he began to climb..." means that Snape will be Dumbledore's help!

Could it also mean that speaking Parseltongue could lift the protection Voldemort has put around his Horcruxes. Mind you before Voldemort has signed Harry as his equal, he was the only one known to be a parselmounth. The other thing what gives me that idea is the dead-eaters sign: a skull in contrast with a living snake. Just don't ask me how R.A.B. has got the locket, because that is confusing me as much as everybody else.

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Solitaire - Jan 19, 2006 8:18 am (#43 of 64)

Gusmania, I asked what if Regulus had died trying to destroy the locket. I certainly do not think he did destroy it. I simply think that if a powerful wizard like Dumbledore could be injured to the extent he was while destroying a Horcrux, then it is possible that Regulus could have been killed trying, even though he was not successful in the attempt.

Frankly, I still think the locket at 12GP is the Horcrux in question. No one could open it, if I remember correctly. That could be an indicator that it is still intact as a Horcrux. Or perhaps the part of the soul within it was destroyed, and it damaged the locket. After all, Dumbledore still wore the ring after he'd destroyed the soul within it. Then again, maybe it's just an old locket and Mrs. Black put a curse on it. Hard to know in a house like that ...

Solitaire

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gusmania - Jan 22, 2006 2:27 am (#44 of 64)

Has Dumbledore injured himself by destroying the ring or did he injure himself by collecting the ring? Because that is not very clear to me. Anyway, the protections that were in the cave, to prevent that a person could take the locket, seemed to be intact. So probably collecting the locket didn't injure R.A.B.

My guess however is that once R.A.B. had the locket, he turned his back to Lord Voldemort, because he didn't have the courage to look him in the eyes again. Imagine what would happen to him if Voldemort used Legilimency against him and found out. Go and hide himself might have been R.A.B.'s best option.

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Steve Newton - Jan 23, 2006 9:54 am (#45 of 64)

Librarian
In the introduction to this thread it says this, " When he had been younger, Harry had dreamed and dreamed of some unknown relation coming to take him away, but it had never happened."

Is this a hint that Hagrid is an unknown relation to Harry? (Through Hagrid's father, I would guess.)

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Choices - Jan 23, 2006 11:15 am (#46 of 64)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Steve - Could it have meant his godfather Sirius - he almost took Harry away from the Dursleys - at least he and Harry talked about Harry coming to live with him. But, the dream was correct - it never happened.

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Soul Search - Jan 23, 2006 1:44 pm (#47 of 64)

I took the important part of that phrase was "take him away;" that is, he would leave the Dursleys. Whether by a "relation" or Hagrid didn't matter a lot. Harry would not likely have dreamed of a giant coming to take him away.

Actually, since the all-wizarding families are all related, somehow, (Sirius' comments in OotP) Hagrid could very well be some sort of relation. Hagrid has been fond of Harry since he took him from Godric's Hollow to #4 Privet Drive.

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Choices - Jan 23, 2006 7:04 pm (#48 of 64)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
True, but I think Hagrid loves Harry like he loves all "little critters". Hagrid felt sorry for Harry since Harry lost his parents much like Hagrid did - too early in life. Harry was orphaned and Hagrid's mothering instincts kicked in when he rescued baby Harry from Godric's Hollow. Hagrid has a very tender heart and I think they bonded because Harry touched Hagrid's heart, more so than because of any blood relation.

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Soul Search - Jan 24, 2006 8:22 am (#49 of 64)

I agree, Choices. Hagrid was the first friend that Harry ever had.

I don't know if I would interpret the "coming to take him away" dream as foretelling or just a wish coming true.

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haymoni - Jan 24, 2006 8:44 am (#50 of 64)

I'm guessing any little boy forced to live in a cupboard would dream of someone coming to take him away.

Isn't it the classic orphan dream?

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frogface - Feb 13, 2006 2:26 am (#51 of 64)

Plus it wasn't a dream in the true sense of the word was it? More like a wish. I think Harry has found his unknown relations anyway, Hagrid, some of the Order, and the Weasley's...they aren't related properly but they are a family to him.

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virginiaelizabeth - Feb 22, 2006 8:07 pm (#52 of 64)

SPCA : Society for the Promotion of Cat Attire!
I always took it as Harry was taken away from a miserable life, and introduced to the wonderful one he truly belonged to. He still has to return to the Dursley's, but for a short period of time each year. And Harry said the dream had never happened but that was before it had actually happened. You say something has never happened until it does.

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Solitaire - Feb 23, 2006 2:43 am (#53 of 64)

In PS/SS, when Harry talks about his dream of the flying motorcycle, I've always connected it with his dream of some "unknown relation coming to take him away." I've always believed this was not a dream but simply a deeply buried memory of Hagrid coming to rescue him from GH when he was a baby ... mixed with his wish to escape from the Dursleys. Remember that Hagrid brought him to PD on the flying motorbike.

His dream of the old man who was killed at the beginning of GoF turned out to be a vision of Frank Bryce's death as it was playing out ... but has he actually realized this? His dreams of the corridor and the door were a lot like "programs" he picked up from a satellite (in this case, Voldemort's mind).

In the past, some of Harry's dreams have been significant. Some seem to have been bits of actual memories. Others have been visions of events that were (or Voldemort wanted him to think were) in progress. Still others seem to have contained what might be seen as prophetic foreshadows of things to come. Perhaps Harry should keep a dream diary!

Solitaire

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Puck - Feb 23, 2006 9:26 am (#54 of 64)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
He saw Frank emerge from LV's wand. I think he may have recognized him...

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 19, 2006 11:35 am (#55 of 64)

If Jo wants all of the dreams to be interpreted, I think personally it was a mistake to make Trewlawney such an utter fraud, inher normal state. She was the one who was trying to teach the students dream interpretation,and failed miserably to get their interest or attention.

Some of the dreams might mean something, but I don't think they all do.

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Finn BV - Mar 19, 2006 1:57 pm (#56 of 64)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Die Zimtzicke – I think the reason Trelawney was made such a fake to begin with was so that she would not be taken seriously when she should have been, at times – e.g. the main Prophecy, as well as the Dark Lord's servant and the Lightning-Struck Tower. Therefore, readers' thoughts on dream interpretation should be paralleled.

Therefore, I agree with you – not all of the dreams mean something.

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Soul Search - Mar 19, 2006 6:28 pm (#57 of 64)

The idea of the topic is that some of Harry's dreams, as narrated, are JKR giving us readers a hint of later storyline. Nothing to do with "Dream Intrepretation."

The examples discussed suggest there is something to the idea.

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cindysuewho45 - Mar 31, 2006 11:48 pm (#58 of 64)

Hi all, The dream Harry had,that I liked the most was in book 1, HPSS. On page 130 it says,(Harry) "He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully - and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it - then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold - there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking. He rolled over and fell asleep again, and when he woke next day, he didn't remember the dream at all." I like this because, it shows all of the main people that work against Harry in the book. The turban and high cold laugh being from LV. Then Malfoy and Snape. So was JKR telling us this from the start of book 1? And the fact that Harry was dreaming this, could that mean that he has a sense for things that he is unaware of?

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Choices - Apr 1, 2006 10:42 am (#59 of 64)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
"......and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it - then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold - there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking."

I think this part of the dream definitely foreshadows what happens on the tower in HBP. We see Malfoy standing before Dumbledore, then Snape replaces him and casts the AK - burst of green light - and Harry is sweating and shaking as he realizes what has happened.

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cindysuewho45 - Apr 29, 2006 12:34 pm (#60 of 64)

Hi all, again I may not be spelling legillimens right, but here I go. What if Harry's dreams are showing us and Harry that he got part of LV's power to be a legillimens? This would explain a lot and play out in a good story line.

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Soul Search - Apr 30, 2006 8:21 am (#61 of 64)

cindysuewho45, interesting. What you are suggesting is that even those of Harry's "dreams" that are not obviously Voldemort inspired, are picked up from someone.

Just as an example, the SS motorcycle dream could have been picked up from Dumbledore or McGonagall. Or, since he was at Privet Drive, from Petunia who was looking out the window when Hagrid arrived. The turban dream could have come from Quirell or Snape. Very interesting.

Can we link any other "dreams" to someone else?

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Choices - Apr 30, 2006 9:39 am (#62 of 64)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
"Just as an example, the SS motorcycle dream could have been picked up from Dumbledore or McGonagall. Or, since he was at Privet Drive, from Petunia who was looking out the window when Hagrid arrived. The turban dream could have come from Quirell or Snape."

Why go searching for someone else to get the dreams from when it is just as likely that they come from Harry himself. He vaguely remembers riding on the flying motorcycle with Hagrid, and he remembers seeing Quirrell in the turban sitting with Snape at the feast and later teaching DADA. Why should the memories that he dreams about have to come from someone else instead of just from his own mind?

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cindysuewho45 - May 1, 2006 3:01 pm (#63 of 64)

Hi all, If Harry got the power of legilimency from LV when LV used AK on Harry, that would make some of Harry's dreams, come from that power. If Harry at some point comes to know this, it would explain a lot. And help him find LV when he needs to. Yes, not all of his dream would be because of this, some are more like for telling or just things that have went on that week.

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Solitaire - May 14, 2006 6:42 pm (#64 of 64)

Regarding the dream about the turban, could it be a precursor to the dreams Harry was having so frequently in GoF? By the time the dream occurred, Voldemort was hiding under the turban, so he would have been having conversations with Quirrell. Perhaps Harry was picking up "transmissions" of those conversations through his connection with Voldemort.

Solitaire
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