What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading

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What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:33 am

What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

poohnpiglettt - Sep 7, 2007 3:29 am
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 26, 2007 4:37 am
I thought this might be an interesting discussion now that all seven books are out and almost anyone who is interested has read them all, many times over. After being on another thread I went back to reread some of DH in The Prince's Tale chapter. I've read many discussions back and forth about DD thinking Harry would really have to die (which I disagree with) so I wanted to see exactly how he approaches Snape. I was concentrating on the words but then noticed at the end of his speech to Snape it says DD opened his eyes. It was a long speech he gave so I was surprised because I hadn't realized he had closed his eyes. For about a full page his eyes are closed, starting right before he starts telling Snape that Harry must die. DD takes a deep breath and closes his eyes and doesn't open them again until after he tells Snape that when Harry "sets out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort." This is even emphasized during the last paragraph that his eyes were still shut tight. Whew! Long winded explanation but I got so excited because it seemed to me that DD did that to avoid Snape using Legilimency on him and learning the truth (that Harry facing LV was the surest was to save Harry's life, not the other way around)since Legilimency usually involves eye contact--"often essential" as Snape put it. True, DD is super powerful and can usually resist it but he was in a very weakend state already and Snape is an expert at Legilimency.



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What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:36 am

Joanna Lupin - Sep 7, 2007 3:42 am (#1 of 367)
Snape is an expert in Occlumency, actually. LOL On the whole, I agree, Snape would probably be able to sense a lie so DD's caution was essential.

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painting sheila - Sep 7, 2007 10:49 am (#2 of 367)

Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Great topic!

I have a list . . let me go sort it all out before I post.

She

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NFla Barbara - Sep 7, 2007 10:55 am (#3 of 367)

I haven't been keeping a list as I re-read the earlier books, but several things have jumped out at me. At the end of PoA, when Harry is up in the infirmary (but before he and Hermione use the time-turner), Snape is dismayed that DD believes HRH's story about Sirius Black. "Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen," he breathed. "You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?" "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus," said Dumbledore quietly.

That line takes on a lot of new meaning now!

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Madam Pince - Sep 7, 2007 8:13 pm (#4 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Do you mean because of the Pensieve?

I love that scene at the end of PoA -- it seemed to me like DD and Snape were having their own private conversation right there with everyone else in the room but totally oblivious to the underlying themes. I need to go back and re-read that, but I will be interested to hear your take on it, Barbara!

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Finn BV - Sep 7, 2007 8:44 pm (#5 of 367)

Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I can't think of the exact quotes now, but there was a real meaning to Hagrid's recurring "I shouldn't ha' told yeh that" line… how many things does he say in PS which turn out to be true? You'd be mad to try and Gringotts, and even if you did you'd be in too far to get out, or something. Voldemort'd never try and take Hogwarts, not yet, anyway. Norbert, the dragon, whom Harry and Hermione must help escape from Hogwarts; the Gringotts dragon, that in turn helps the trio escape to Hogwarts. I thought so much of DH related back to PS it was crazy (the same goes for 6 back to 2, and you could make the argument for 5 back to 3; 4 stands on its own for being so pivotal).

I had a reread of the whole series leading up to the release and took a bunch of notes of things which could potentially be important; I'll go back through it and see if I was a sleuth at all or just highlighting the same old things over and over again.

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NFla Barbara - Sep 8, 2007 10:56 am (#6 of 367)

When DD says his memory is as good as it ever was, there's a lot we (and Harry) still don't know. We haven't seen Snape's worst memory, so we don't know the extent to which he was hazed by the Marauders. We do know (and Harry does) about The Prank, but we don't know that part of the rivalry between Snape and James involved Lily. We don't know about his friendship with Lily or how it ended...or that he was willing for Harry and James to die if LV would just spare her. We don't know that he has vowed to protect Harry but doesn't want anyone to know.

At that moment Snape is completely caught up in the old rivalry with the Marauders, to the point where he does not care what the truth is. So the first thing I thought when I read the line was that DD was reminding him that things may be different than they seem, and that he needs to look at what's happening right before him instead of wallowing in a 15+-year-old grudge. But I also thought he might be saying "yes, I remember what they did to you, and I remember what you did in return, and I remember that you promised to help me rather than oppose me."

I could be taking that really wrong, of course, but it was just a line that seemed more loaded in retrospect than it did back when PoA first came out, when it just sounded like DD rather wearily telling Snape to calm down.

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freshwater - Sep 8, 2007 10:59 am (#7 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
"My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus," said Dumbledore quietly."

This is certainly a more loaded statement --having read DH-- than when first read at the end of PoA. Clearly DD is reminding SS that he not only recalls Sirius' prank on SS, but that SS was a DE and repented that choice only when someone important to himself was endangered, not because it was the right thing to do.

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NFla Barbara - Sep 8, 2007 12:24 pm (#8 of 367)

Much more succinct than I was, freshwater...

Another thing I read differently in PoA now that I have read DH is the depth of Snape's hatred for Sirius. In PoA he thinks Sirius was the secret-keeper for the Potters and therefore is the one who revealed their location to LV. As has been discussed elsewhere -- maybe the Snape or the Lily and James thread? it's so hard to keep some of these ideas separate -- Snape may have blamed James for trusting the wrong secret-keeper, thus invalidating the protection Snape had sought for Lily. He also would have hated the betrayer himself. In PoA we see his hatred of Sirius as mostly stemming from their age-old grudge (and Lupin even says in the Shrieking Shack "Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back in Azkaban?"). I think with what we know in DH his hatred of Sirius was intensified by his blaming Sirius (wrongly) for his part in Lily's death.

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Madam Pince - Sep 9, 2007 11:26 am (#9 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Excellent point -- I hadn't thought of that.

So Snape's hatred of Sirius is much much more than just the schoolboy grudge that Lupin mentioned (although that clearly was still in his mind as well -- who wouldn't have remembered something like that and resented it?) It was also that he thought Sirius was responsible for the death of his one true love. And James was no better (all the "arrogant" references) because he was dumb enough to trust Sirius.

Nice. And sad. Wonder if he ever accepted that Pettigrew was the actual secret-keeper? He didn't seem to believe it by the end of PoA. He let Pettigrew live with him for awhile in HBP apparently, and although he was contemptuous of him, he didn't seem to hate him. I'd think he would've if he thought Pettigrew had a hand in Lily's death. But it seems odd that in all the info-sharing Snape and Dumbledore did, that he wasn't somehow forced to accept that Sirius wasn't really the betrayer. Hmmm.

And back to the "...my memory is as good as it ever was..." thing -- I like the idea that Dumbledore was quietly saying "Yes, I remember how bad he was. I also remember how bad you once were, Severus! Yet I can forgive each of you." I like that a lot.

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Chemyst - Sep 9, 2007 4:59 pm (#10 of 367)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
He let Pettigrew live with him for awhile in HBP apparently, and although he was contemptuous of him, he didn't seem to hate him. I'd think he would've if he thought Pettigrew had a hand in Lily's death.

Re: He let Pettigrew live with him . . .
I think the "let" was coerced. More like on LV's orders. And I think Snape did hate Peter, did finally realize his role in Lily's death, but pragmatically considered Wormtail too insignificant to allow that opinion to blow his cover.

At Spinner's End, Narcissa asks if they are alone. Snape answers: "Well, Wormtail is here, but we are not counting vermin, are we?"
(Note the marauder nickname is being used by the DE's! )

Shortly after that, Snape orders Wormtail to get drinks; Peter "winces" and the conversation goes like this:
"I am not your servant!" he squeaked, avoiding Snapes's eye.
"Really? I was under the impression that the Dark Lord placed you hee to assist me."
To assist, yes, – but not to make you drinks and – and clean your house!"
"I had no idea, Wormtail, that you were craving more dangerous assignments, : said Snape silkily…

I think the only reason Snape "let" Wormtail live there was that LV had assigned him to be there. Snape is really sticking it to Peter by calling him Wormtail to constantly remind him of his "traitor" name. LV probably "trusted" Snape to handle Peter. And at the same time, LV set up the situation to also be a test of Snape's loyalty; and probably found a perverted glee by forcing Snape to share his own house with the one who betrayed Lily.

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zelmia - Sep 9, 2007 5:06 pm (#11 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Since Voldemort didn't know anything about Snape's feelings for Lily, it is doubtful that pairing him with Wormtail was even remotely intentional.

But it does strike me as odd that Snape never seemed to try to do anything to take revenge on Wormtail. Not like he did with Sirius ("give me a reason"), and not like he does with James-using-Harry.

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Chemyst - Sep 9, 2007 5:22 pm (#12 of 367)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
If Voldemort were not so dimwitted about love he would have known! Snape asked him for mercy to spare Lily in exchange for the son. DH33, page 677 Scholastic LV was incapable of understanding the depth of Snape's feelings, but he did know feelings existed. I have always thought the pairing was intentional in case they would snitch on each other, but after DH I think it was doubly intentional because LV found a sick pleasure in knowing they would irritate each other so much that they would be even more likely to snitch on each other.

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Madam Pince - Sep 10, 2007 11:59 am (#13 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I wholeheartedly agree that it was only because of Voldemort's orders that Pettigrew was there. It just seems to me that if Snape knew he'd been secret-keeper, he would've been a lot more than just snarky to old Wormtail. Seems like he might've either asked Voldy to make other arrangements (doubtful if Voldy would've agreed, but who knows...) or else perhaps Wormtail might've met with some unfortunate accident like falling down the cellar stairs or something.

I thought of something else concerning Wormtail in my re-read last night -- he's yet another example of Voldemort screwing himself over. Voldy put the silver hand on Wormtail and apparently imbued it with a charm so that it would strangle Wormtail if he ever betrayed Voldy. So when does this happen? Right at a time when Harry Potter and friends are conveniently nearby to grab Wormtail's wand. If Wormtail's silver hand hadn't strangled him (at Voldy's orders), then Harry and Ron might never have been able to escape Malfoy Manor, because they used Wormtail's wand to stun/disarm everyone upstairs before Dobby came. How ironic -- yet again Voldemort only hurts himself.

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freshwater - Sep 10, 2007 6:02 pm (#14 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Wormtail's silver arm was charmed to strangle him if he ever betrayed LV? I thought it went to strangle him because he was reneging on his life debt to Harry (from the end of PoA), and that somehow magically caused his own hand to kill himself, in place of Harry and Co., in the Malfoy dungeon.

Did anyone else see it that way?

Interesting point about Severus hating Sirius for his supposed role in betraying Lily.....or was it for his role in picking a weak secret-keeper, thus leading to Lily's death? If so, he could hardly be more angry with Sirius, than Sirius had been with himself. Or....then again, maybe Snape could remain angry about that.....

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NFla Barbara - Sep 10, 2007 7:13 pm (#15 of 367)

I think we are told that the hand strangled Peter because of his hesitation in killing Harry, so that is what indicates that the hand was charmed (by LV) to punish him if he hesitated in carrying out LV's wishes...even though he did not hesitate to cut off his own hand in GoF. You'd think that would count for something!

I think Snape would have hated Sirius even more whether he still believed Sirius had betrayed the Potters, or whether he found out (I think he must have found out) that Peter was actually the one who betrayed them.

He seems to have treated Peter as a house elf at Spinner's End. I can see LV putting Peter there so that they would both watch each other, but I don't think LV was doing it because of Snape's feelings for Lily -- I think LV was oblivious to that, but he was not oblivious to any possibility to foster discord or distrust among those around him.

He could hardly have been angrier at Sirius, than Sirius was with himself I think part of the reason the two hate each other so bitterly is that them blame themselves as well as each other for what happened to James & Lily. I love the scene in GoF where DD commands them to shake hands and they do so, their eyes filled with mutual loathing.

Madame Pince, I also think that it is even clearer on re-reading the books that LV is, in a sense, destroying himself. Not to take away from Harry -- it is his story, after all -- but the story begins and ends with evil rebounding on itself. And, in between, there are numerous examples of LV being too arrogant to pay attention to things that came back to haunt him -- like the powers of house-elves.

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mona amon - Sep 10, 2007 8:59 pm (#16 of 367)

Yes, I'm sure Voldemort put a charm on the hand, because in GOF he gives Peter quite a sermon on loyalty, makes him the silver hand, and says "May your loyalty never waver again, Wormtail". Now that's a 'connection', so I'm not off topic! Imagine if he had put some similar charm on Severus!

You'd think that would count for something!

LOL!

I think part of the reason the two hate each other so bitterly is that them blame themselves as well as each other for what happened to James & Lily.

I don't think Sirius would have been able to blame Snape for what happened to the Potters because he did not know it was Snape who overheard the prophecy and carried it to Voldemort. Similarly, I don't see how Snape could continue to blame Sirius, when, except for some feelings of contempt, he does not bother too much about Peter. The two were just incredibly immature to keep their schoolboy grudges alive for almost twenty years.

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wynnleaf - Sep 12, 2007 2:32 pm (#17 of 367)

I think Snape's hatred for Sirius in POA was more than anything what he perceived to be Sirius' part in Lily's death, but Snape wouldn't directly say that, of course. It makes his hatred of Sirius far more understandable, because he has just as much cause to want Sirius dead (thinking he's the traitor), as Lupin and Sirius had to kill Peter.

As for Dumbledore's comment about his memory, I think it could refer to any number of things. I like the idea that DD sees that just as Snape believes James' saving his life was really just to save his friends, so Snape's attempts to save James' life was really mainly an effort to save Lily. Was Snape right about James? Probably. Of course James would be a lot more concerned about his good friends Sirius and Lupin becoming murderers than in Snape being kept alive.

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NFla Barbara - Sep 12, 2007 6:20 pm (#18 of 367)

I agree it was incredibly immature to hold onto old grudges for so long -- Snape/Sirius are two examples, Petunia another. I'm still thinking about Peter and whether Snape really 'didn't bother' with him. The animosity from school days was not really directed at him, and yet it's hard for me to believe that, once Snape knew who really betrayed the Potters, he felt no animosity towards Peter at all. I am about to start re-reading HBP, so maybe this will make more sense to me after I do that.

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Madam Pince - Sep 12, 2007 7:38 pm (#19 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
...once Snape knew who really betrayed the Potters...

Are we sure he ever really knew? That's what I was wondering earlier...

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wynnleaf - Sep 12, 2007 8:30 pm (#20 of 367)

Of course he knew. First of all, does anyone really think DD didn't have to explain to the Order as a whole that Sirius wasn't really a Death Eater and the traitor who betrayed the Potters? Of course. Everyone on the Order would want to know why DD didn't consider Sirius guilty any longer.

As for how Snape acted toward Peter, that's completely understandable. He'd tried to make Voldemort assume that he didn't have any real personal interest in Lily and that there were always other women. So how could he then go and act like he hated Peter for betraying the Potters? As for treating Peter badly and possibly blaming it on their school day enmity, Snape couldn't do that either. Voldemort wouldn't want that sort of thing going on between his Death Eaters any more than Dumbledore wanted Snape and Sirius to be always fighting.

So Snape would just have to conceal his hatred of Peter and keep acting. As he said in HBP, he had to learn to act in order to survive. It's just another example of Snape having to conceal deep feelings for the sake of his spying work.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 13, 2007 2:20 am (#21 of 367)

Also, Wormtail living with Snape was evidence of Sirius's (who Snape really hated) innocence. That Snape had almost sent an inocent man to oblivion via the Dementors Kiss.

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mona amon - Sep 13, 2007 4:44 am (#22 of 367)

I doubt it (sending Sirius to oblivion) would have bothered Snape anymore than nearly getting Snape killed by a werewolf ever bothered Sirius!

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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 13, 2007 8:48 am (#23 of 367)

I agree sort of Mona amon that Snape wouldn't have cared about Sirius recieving the dementors kiss. But Snape wanted Sirius to have been te one who betrayed Lily, and had to live with the person who really did it. He would have been reminded of Sirius's innocence and hated the fact that he had one less reason to depise Sirius

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wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2007 11:20 am (#24 of 367)

By the time Snape was living with Peter, Sirius was dead, so I don't see how that would particularly affect Snape's thinking about Sirius. Sure, I would imagine he'd think about it, but as for making him feel particularly worse about anything, I wouldn't think so.

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Madam Pince - Sep 13, 2007 11:53 am (#25 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Also, Wormtail living with Snape was evidence of Sirius's (who Snape really hated) innocence. That Snape had almost sent an inocent man to oblivion via the Dementors Kiss. --Phelim

Sorry, but I don't quite get what you mean here? I'm probably just being dense...

Wynnleaf, that is a good point you make, that surely Dumbledore would've convinced the Order members that Sirius was innocent, or else he probably would not have been allowed to be hanging around Order headquarters all through OotP. And since Snape clearly did see Sirius there and know that he was staying there, I'm willing to let that stand as evidence that Snape had been told that Sirius was innocent of betraying the Potters. (I bet he accepted it grudgingly, though. And I still think it would've fit the story a bit better for him to have been nastier to Pettigrew than he was. But hey, not my story! )

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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 14, 2007 4:43 am (#26 of 367)

Madam Pince - Snape hated Sirius. The first reason is Sirius almost getting him killed. (He also hated James for saving him?!) Secondly Snape believed Sirius to have been the secret keeper, the one who betrayed Lily to Voldemort. One of Snape's arguements against Harry and Hermione at the end of PoA was that he hadn't seen Pettigrew. He now has Wormtail living with him - living proof of Sirius's innocence where betraying Lily was concerned. Does this clear things up?

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zelmia - Sep 14, 2007 11:43 am (#27 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
It seems to me to be very fitting karma that Snape should be stuck in his own house with the abettor to the murderer of his once-love and not be able to do anything about it.

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freshwater - Sep 14, 2007 5:04 pm (#28 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Whoa...very well put, zelmia. I hadn't thought of it that way....must have been particularly galling for Snape. Now I am actually surprised that Wormtail did not encounter a werewolf or a dementor or some mis-labeled poison while in Snape's company. Could this indicate some greater maturity or goodness on Snape's part (in book 6), as compared to the year of the Potter's death?

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wynnleaf - Sep 14, 2007 5:38 pm (#29 of 367)

Could this indicate some greater maturity or goodness on Snape's part (in book 6), as compared to the year of the Potter's death? (freshwater)

If so, it's more maturity than Lupin and Sirius possessed, being quite willing to kill him, unarmed and pleading, in cold blood in front of 3 thirteen year old kids, even though the guy hadn't even been taken before authorities.

But I don't think so. I think Snape had to act like Peter was a "partner in crime" so to speak. Snape, as the supposedly loyal Death Eater, couldn't afford to be killing off Voldemort's help, just to satisfy a personal desire for vengence.

I don't quite see the circumstances as "fitting" in any particular way. It's just one of the many, many, many things Snape had to suffer through or deal with in order to help the Order, carry out Dumbledore's plans, etc.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 15, 2007 12:45 am (#30 of 367)

Freshwater, I agree that it is suprising that Wormtail didn't have an "accident" while at Snape's. But I am sure that DD told Snape about the life debt.

Wynnleaf, I'm not so sure about Snape/Wormtail not being fitting. Voldemort believed that Snape "desired" Lily but had no concept of love, so I doubt that Mouldy Voldie (to resurrect a nickname for him that I created and am sure Peeves picked up on) put Wormtail at Spinners End to remind Snape of his failure to protect Lily. But Voldemort would not have even thought about the situation because he had no concept of love. Snape on the otherhand lived with the pain of loosing Lily first to James and then to Voldemort. That Sirius had been the betrayer was one more reason to hate him. Now he knew that Wormtail had been the Potters' betrayer having Wormtail there and not doing anything to him would have been like having a thorn in the flesh that couldn't be removed. But I'm sure he enjoyed being sadistic to Wormtail because .....

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 15, 2007 4:47 am (#31 of 367)

Mouldy Voldie - yeah, I had such a thrill when I read Peeves' song that I actually squeeked excitedly "OI! Our nickname at the Lexicon!"

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NFla Barbara - Sep 15, 2007 6:04 am (#32 of 367)

Here's another little connection that a friend pointed out to me last night. In the "CAPSLOCK Harry" scene, what DD says to Harry that really sets him off is "I know how you feel." (Harry is blaming himself for Sirius's death.) Now we know that DD really DOES know how it feels to blame yourself for a loved one's death, although Harry won't find out that part of DD's history until after DD is dead himself. I know there have been some mixed feelings elsewhere on the forum about DD speaking plainly to Harry about Sirius so soon after Sirius has died, but on re-reading I think it has to be seen in the context of DD understanding the guilt and self-loathing that Harry is feeling, and wanting him to be able to grieve for Sirius without blaming himself.

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freshwater - Sep 17, 2007 5:15 pm (#33 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Excellent point, NFla B. And very well put...take 10 points for your house.

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megfox* - Sep 17, 2007 5:25 pm (#34 of 367)

I have been rereading the whole series since I finished DH, and I have been working on HBP this week. OotP and HBP have taken me the longest, since they were the ones that I have read the fewest times - I actually only read HBP twice, because I was so upset by the ending. Anyway, I can't believe how many things you can read differently now that we know how everything turns out. I mean this about the whole series, but especially OotP and HBP. Even things that seem to be throw-away, trifling comments, you can look at them now and know that Jo put them there for a reason, we just didn't know it at the time. And now, as I read them, they are like tiny little hidden jewels that make me go, "ohmigosh, I get it now!" If you haven't started rereading the series, or like me, haven't reread HBP in a while, I totally suggest that you do it!

I think the next time I read I am going to start taking notes on all of these things I have noticed. Everytime it happens, I think, "I'm going to post this on the Forum." Then, by the time I get here, I've forgotten what it was I wanted to post!

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 17, 2007 10:53 pm (#35 of 367)

Pettigrew's death reminded me of the statement Sirius made about the nature of service to Voldemort, when discussing the death of Regulus.

. . .Well you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death. (OotP Large Print Edition page 166)

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NFla Barbara - Sep 25, 2007 7:31 am (#36 of 367)

Here are a couple of little things that I noticed in CoS, both in "The Dueling Club" chapter.

When Lockhart brings Snape in as his "assistant" to teach defensive spells, the first spell Snape uses is "expelliarmus." It's a bit ironic, isn't it, that Harry's "signature" move is something he learned from Snape?

This is not a really direct "connection, but at the beginning of the chapter, HRH are in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom, and Hermione has a fire crackling under a cauldron in a toilet: "Conjuring up portable, waterproof fires was a specialty of Hermione's." I was struck by how Hermione's gifts with spellwork seemed to be setting her up, even back then, for some of the things she would need to do later on, especially during DH.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 26, 2007 7:52 pm (#37 of 367)

One of my favorite connections is Neville standing up to HRH in PS/SS and then standing up to Voldemort in DH.

In PS/SS to get the Stone Harry had to want to find it but not use it: eternal life and riches. In DH he had to unite the Deathly Hallows to master death by facing it and not using them to seek power. No wonder DD was so pleased with Harry at the end of PS/SS. LPO

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NFla Barbara - Sep 26, 2007 8:37 pm (#38 of 367)

No wonder DD was so pleased with Harry at the end of PS/SS Great point, LPO!

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PeskyPixie - Sep 27, 2007 7:41 am (#39 of 367)

At that moment in PS/SS Dumbledore knew that Harry would probably have the courage to sacrifice his own life if it meant Voldemort would be defeated.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 27, 2007 12:49 pm (#40 of 367)

Dumbledore states about Neville (PS/SS) that it takes much bravery to stand up to one's friends. He knew then that there was great bravery in Neville Longbottom and that he was an even worthier Gryffindor than Remus Lupin who couldn't even use his power as prefect to stand up to his friends when he knew they were wrong.

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James Greenfield - Sep 29, 2007 12:17 am (#41 of 367)

Another sort of connection upon rereading: at the end of OotP, Dumbledore says the prophecy might equaly well apply to Neville as to Harry, that is, either of them could have been the one who could defeat Voldemort. Now, in DH, we find out that in the final battle, it takes both Neville and Harry to defeat Voldemort. If Neville hadn't killed Nagini, Harry couldn't have killed Voldemort.

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Luna Logic - Sep 29, 2007 12:35 am (#42 of 367)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Yes, and it did take a lot of bravery, as the only way to kill Nagini was to approach directly Voldemort. Harry would perhaps not have succeed in doing this because Voldemort would have kill him first, or not let Harry come close.

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freshwater - Sep 29, 2007 7:09 am (#43 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I like very much the connections mentioned above about Neville's bravery in standing up to his friends when he thought they were wrong --particularly nice comparision with Lupin's failure to do as well with his friends-- and his facing LV.

As to killing Nagini, that required not only bravery to approach that closely to LV, but also great loyalty and trust in his friend, Harry. To determinedly finish such a difficult and dangerous task --with little or no explanation about it's importance-- shows the depth of Neville's faith in Harry.

And, this is just one more of the many examples JKR gives us of the endless rewards of kindness: Neville accepts and follows through on Harry's order to kill Nagini without questioning it, due to the relationship that had been developing between the two boys since (in PS/SS) Harry first retrieved Neville's rememberall from Malfoy, and later gave him his last Chocolate Frog while stating "you're worth 12 of Malfoy". Small kindnesses....you can never tell the dividends they will pay in the long run.

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Orion - Sep 29, 2007 11:17 am (#44 of 367)

It is unfair to compare Lupin to Neville because as a werewolf "shunned all of my life" (or something like that) Lupin wasn't so accustomed to having friends at all, and he was used to great reserve or open hatred of people. So when he found some friends, and they were the coolest and most admired students of the whole school, he didn't want to risk losing them again. DD ought to have made somebody else prefect. He should have understood the problem. He probably wanted to show Lupin his trust and how he appreciated him, but it wasn't very wise. You can blame anyone for being a lousy prefect, but not Lupin.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 29, 2007 1:39 pm (#45 of 367)

Neville is also something of a loner for his first few years at Hogwarts. Harry and Ron become quick friends, as do Dean and Seamus ... Neville is the odd man out in their dorm room. He doesn't want to lose the few friends he makes either, but he has the strength in him to do what he feels is right.

Also, Lupin has something in his childhood which Neville is robbed of as a baby: loving parents. Neville and Lupin are both individuals who have a lot to lose by standing up to their friends. Neville is brave enough to do it ... let's not deny him of praise where praise is due.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 29, 2007 1:47 pm (#46 of 367)

I agree. Neville was ridiculed all his life because he wasn't as talented as his father. He didn't have close friends at Hogwarts. It even more stresses Neville's strengh and bravery.

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Orion - Sep 30, 2007 3:35 am (#47 of 367)

PeskyPixie, you say that Harry, Ron and Hermione weren't Neville's close friends in the beginning. Even on the Hogwarts Express in OOP Harry is embarrassed that people see him with Neville. (Very brave, Harry, very brave.) It cost Neville a lot to stand up to the few people who at least talked to him sometimes, and it was great of him. But Lupin's case is different. He would have had to tell off his closest friends, people he loved dearly. He wasn't only too insecure to tell them off, but also biased because of love. When I think of my puberty, and how I used to cling to my friends like adhesive tape... I wouldn't like to be condemned for that.

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PatPat - Sep 30, 2007 8:12 am (#48 of 367)

And, this is just one more of the many examples JKR gives us of the endless rewards of kindness: Neville accepts and follows through on Harry's order to kill Nagini without questioning it, due to the relationship that had been developing between the two boys since (in PS/SS) Harry first retrieved Neville's rememberall from Malfoy, and later gave him his last Chocolate Frog while stating "you're worth 12 of Malfoy". Small kindnesses....you can never tell the dividends they will pay in the long run. freshwater

I'm SOOOO glad you pointed this out, freshwater. I agree completely. In fact, I mentioned in this post: PatPat, "+ Book 7 (HP and the Deathly Hallows)" #707, 7 Apr 2007 9:36 am before DH came out, that I thought all of Harry's small acts of kindness (giving Neville his last chocolate frog, being the only person to offer to help Luna find her possessions, etc.) would be very important. I am happy that my prediction came true! (since I was wrong about many others! )

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Mrs Brisbee - Sep 30, 2007 8:30 am (#49 of 367)

I too think that is a great point, Freshwater. Kindness will reap friendship and trust.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 30, 2007 9:53 am (#50 of 367)

Orion, I am in no way 'condemning' Lupin (he's one of my favourite characters, after all). However, I do find Neville to be a worthier Gryffindor than him; I have already provided supporting arguments over this point in my last two posts.

On a seperate note, I've just realized after a re-read that Tonks was in seventh year at Hogwarts during the events of PS/SS. Had she been merely two years younger she would have had Lupin as a teacher. Ick.

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What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading (Post 51 to 100)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:37 am

Orion - Sep 30, 2007 11:09 am (#51 of 367)
Edited by Sep 30, 2007 11:09 am
Ick? Please explain to a non native speaker who lives on zer ozzer side of zer planet.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 30, 2007 11:21 am (#52 of 367)

Ick means 'yuck, gross'. And before you get too upset , Orion, it has nothing to do with how I feel about Lupin as a character. I was just totally icked out with a mental image of Tonks-the-student (in her school robes) marrying Lupin-the-professor with Binns officiating as the minister!

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Orion - Sep 30, 2007 11:45 am (#53 of 367)

Oh God, they marry. I had forgotten. Ick ick ick!!!

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wynnleaf - Oct 1, 2007 6:35 am (#54 of 367)

It is unfair to compare Lupin to Neville because as a werewolf "shunned all of my life" (or something like that) Lupin wasn't so accustomed to having friends at all, and he was used to great reserve or open hatred of people. (Orion)

Actually, although Lupin uses this as an excuse, we know that it wasn't true of Lupin as a kid. If he grew up around any muggles, they certainly wouldn't have known he was a werewolf. And any wizarding kids he knew obviously didn't know either or the students at Hogwarts would have learned of it. At Hogwarts, Lupin would have been treated just like any other student, except that students would know he had some illness that affected him periodically. He was certainly not shunned as a child or adolescent because of being a werewolf. Other kids didn't even know about it.

So the comparison, or more accurately contrast with Neville works very well.

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Orion - Oct 1, 2007 7:48 am (#55 of 367)

Are you sure? Hmm. (creaking noise of perspective slowly shifting into new position)

By the way (would that be BTW, by the way?), if Tonks was at school for one year with Harry, and she was in Gryffindor (was she?), then they would have hung out together in the common room. Funny how he never noticed a girl with shocking pink hair who kept banging into the furniture. Probably the concept of "Tonks" was developed much later by JKRowling. (What IS the concept of Tonks, BTW?)

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Marie E. - Oct 1, 2007 7:54 am (#56 of 367)

I think Tonks was in Hufflepuff.

Edit: Yes, checked the Lexicon just to be sure.

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 1, 2007 7:55 am (#57 of 367)

Tonks would have finished school by the time Harry started. Auror training takes three years, and she had qualified for Auror the year before she met Harry. So that is at least four years out of school, and Harry had been in school only four years when they met.

According to Rowling, Tonks was in Hufflepuff.[Edit: Marie E. beat me to it!]

Lupin would not have been at Hogwarts with Tonks, as either a student or professor. They do have a March-September type romance.

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Orion - Oct 1, 2007 7:59 am (#58 of 367)

Thought so. He would have to be blind to overlook her, even if she was in another house. It's nice that somebody of Hufflepuff ends up in a typical Gryffindor job like auror.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 1, 2007 10:15 am (#59 of 367)

If Tonks's birth year is correct, she is a seventh year Hufflepuff while Harry is a first year Gryffindor. Her date of birth is Sept. 24, 1973. Like Hermione, she is almost twelve years old when she enters Hogwarts in the school year of 1985/86. Her final year at Hogwarts should therefore be 1991/92, which is the school year during which the events of PS/SS occur.

Also, I never suggested that Tonks is at any time Lupin's student. I stated that had she been merely two years younger she would have had Lupin as a teacher.

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 1, 2007 10:54 am (#60 of 367)

I did not mean to imply that you meant that, PeskyPixie. I was just trying to say that Tonks and Lupin never encountered each other in school, and so wouldn't think of their relationship in those terms.

I'm not sure where you are getting Tonks birthdate from, and anyway I'm bad with dates. All I know is that Tonks met Harry for the first time in OotP, in "The Advanced Guard". She says then that she only qualified as an Auror last year. Add three more years to that and she's been out of school at least four years. Harry has completed four years and is yet to start his fifth. So Harry and Tonks never were in school together.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 1, 2007 11:48 am (#61 of 367)

'Prophecy 2007' is reputed to be 'the largest Harry Potter conference in the world.' This year it was held in Toronto, Canada, my home since birth. The 'Hall of Reflections' at the conference contained shrines and memorials for 'all those who had fallen through the series', from Hedwig to Sirius Black (many left shampoo at Severus Snape's shrine!). Each shrine was marked with the birth and death dates of the character it represented, as well as a quote. Tonks and Lupin shared a joined shrine; it was here that Tonks's birthdate was recorded as September 24, 1973. Hence, I wrote in my previous post, 'IF TONKS'S BIRTH YEAR IS CORRECT ... ' she most certainly is a seventh year Hufflepuff during the events of PS/SS.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 1, 2007 4:49 pm (#62 of 367)

I've been trying to create an alternate timeline for Tonks, Mrs. Brisbee, based on conversations in OotP.

It is summer 1995 when Tonks tells Harry that she 'only qualified a year ago', which means she becomes an Auror in summer 1994. With three years Auror training she graduates from Hogwarts in the 1990/91 school year, meaning she has just left when Harry begins.

Maybe this is one of those discrepencies which JKR can solve by simply moving Tonks's birth year back to 1972, or her birthday back a month.

Upon re-reading I've found this quote by McGonagall during Harry's 'Careers Advice' meeting:'It's a difficult career path, Potter, they only take the best. In fact, I don't think anybody has been taken on in the last three years.' I suppose one may argue that she does not know of Tonks making it onto the force two years previous to this moment in the book. However, far too much has to be explained this way. What were JKR's editors doing?!

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kingdolohov - Oct 1, 2007 5:21 pm (#63 of 367)

Not so much of a connection, I guess, but it's interesting that each of the nine members of the Advance Guard in OotP play a role, although you learn nothing of some of them at the time:

-Moody, Lupin, Tonks, and Shacklebolt all play large roles in remainder of series

-Elphias Doge acts as a source of information about Dumbledore

-Dedalus Diggle and Hestia Jones return to take care of the Dursleys

-Emmeline Vance gets murdered (now that's a fun purpose to serve!)

-Sturgis Podmore gets arrested

It really isn't surprising they are all heard of to some degree again, since we needed to be familiar with several members of the Order (and not just be given a list of names). However, it was still cool to see the "unknowns" return in DH.

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poohnpiglettt - Oct 2, 2007 11:33 am (#64 of 367)

I have a potential connection which actually leads to a question. I'm rereading the complete series and in rereading GOB, when Harry, Ron and Hermione go to meet Sirius in the cave, he talks to them about how Crouch treats his houseelf so badly. He says, in essence, that you can tell a lot about how a person treaats his inferiors, not his equals, reasoning that Crouch is not a very nice person because of how badly he treats Winky. And DD tells Harry basically the same thing about Sirius and how badly he treats Kreacher in OOTP. So my question is, is this a big hint from JKR about how we should really view Sirius?

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wynnleaf - Oct 2, 2007 12:28 pm (#65 of 367)

And DD tells Harry basically the same thing about Sirius and how badly he treats Kreacher in OOTP. So my question is, is this a big hint from JKR about how we should really view Sirius? (poohnpiglettt)

Yes, I think JKR confirms that the contradictions between what Sirius says and what he actually does is something we're to notice.

This is from JKR's official site:

Sirius is very good at spouting bits of excellent personal philosophy, but he does not always live up to them. For instance, he says in "Goblet of Fire" that if you want to know what a man is really like, 'look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.' But Sirius loathes Kreacher, the house-elf he has inherited, and treats him with nothing but contempt. Similarly, Sirius claims that nobody is wholly good or wholly evil, and yet the way he acts towards Snape suggests that he cannot conceive of any latent good qualities there. Of course, these double standards exist in most of us; we might know how we ought to behave, but actually doing it is a different matter!

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NFla Barbara - Oct 2, 2007 4:00 pm (#66 of 367)

I agree that Sirius is an example of the contradiction between what we say and what we do. But his treatment of Kreacher is not the best example, or at least, we should not carry the example too far. DD explains at the end of OoP that Sirius had no general hostility towards house-elves, and was kind to them in general. (This is in the capslock HARRY scene, when Harry finally stops throwing things around.) Sirius was cruel to Kreacher because Kreacher represented so many unhappy and bitter memories of how Sirius had been treated at the hands of his own family. I mean, having your own mother blast you off the family tree, no matter how nutty she is, has got to hurt a bit. DD was careful to point out to Harry that Sirius was not cruel to elves in general. Similarly, the reason DD encouraged Sirius to be more mindful of Kreacher's feelings was not because DD was a supported of more rights for house elves, but because DD realized that Kreacher could be dangerous to the Order.

Edited to add: ...In a way he was a very good example of what he told Harry -- that no one is all good or all bad. His overall treatment of house-elves, according to DD, was just fine. His specific treatment of Kreacher was very poor, although (I think) understandable, and ultimately it contributed to his death. It is a nice bit of symmetry that we find out later that Kreacher is not all bad, just as Sirius wasn't all good.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 2, 2007 4:07 pm (#67 of 367)

DD claims to have -'persuaded'- the truth out of Kreacher upon arrival at 12GP in OotP (same chapter as NFla's post). One can only hope that he is referring to Legilimency.

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PatPat - Oct 2, 2007 4:36 pm (#68 of 367)

Dumbledore IS talking about legilimency. The exact quote is:

...I am a sufficiently accomplished Legilimens myself to know when I am being lied to and I - persuaded him - to tell me the full story...

There's no way Dumbledore would hurt a house elf.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 2, 2007 5:16 pm (#69 of 367)

Unless his Dark side is taking over ...

Relax, I'm just being silly. I know Dumbledore would rather die himself before hurting an elf.

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PatPat - Oct 2, 2007 5:22 pm (#70 of 367)

LOL, Pesky. Sorry, I'm very protective of my Dumbledore!

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Anna L. Black - Oct 3, 2007 6:42 am (#71 of 367)

Nathan's post 35 says:

Pettigrew's death reminded me of the statement Sirius made about the nature of service to Voldemort, when discussing the death of Regulus.

. . .Well you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death. (OotP Large Print Edition page 166)

Well, it just seemed funny to me that Sirius's quote that can be referred to Pettigrew is actually "You don't hand....". Because you could say that Voldemort made sure Pettigrew would hand his resignation

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PeskyPixie - Oct 3, 2007 9:45 am (#72 of 367)

Also, LV in GoF (I honestly wonder what non-HP fans would make of our abbreviations!): 'I will allow you to perform an essential task for me, one that many of my followers would give their right hands to perform', then later, 'May your loyalty never waver again.' He means these things in more ways than one!

I've mentioned this on the Severus Snape thread: the only time Snape ingests something 'on camera', it is blood-red wine. It seems to me that this is a joke on JKR's behalf regarding the 'Snape is a vampire' theories.

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PatPat - Oct 3, 2007 5:34 pm (#73 of 367)

I don't know if anyone has pointed this connection out yet. I have started re-reading from PS. I am right now at the forbidden forest scene. I noticed that Malfoy is afraid to go into the forest because "there's all sorts of things in there - werewolves, I heard." It occurs to me that Malfoy's father was at hogwarts at the time that Lupin and the rest of the Marauders were running around the grounds at night. Yet another statement that seemed to mean nothing at the time, but now has huge relevance to the story.

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Steve Newton - Oct 3, 2007 5:45 pm (#74 of 367)

Librarian
As we pointed out on the SS/PS Read-A-Long thread, in the first chapter McGonnagall says that Dumbledore is too noble to use the dark arts. A hint that he knew them and chose not to use them.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 8:24 am (#75 of 367)

Doesn't DD answer Minnie with something along the lines of, 'You're too kind, I haven't blushed like this since madam Pomfrey complimented me on my earmuffs'? It seems like he is being his modest whimsical self, but there really is much more behind it.

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Chemyst - Oct 6, 2007 4:30 pm (#76 of 367)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Upon re-reading I've found this quote by McGonagall during Harry's 'Careers Advice' meeting: 'It's a difficult career path, Potter, they only take the best. In fact, I don't think anybody has been taken on in the last three years.' I suppose one may argue that she does not know of Tonks making it onto the force two years previous to this moment in the book. However, far too much has to be explained this way. What were JKR's editors doing?! PeskyPixie

When this was discussed several years ago, most came to the conclusion that "taken on" meant being accepted into the apprenticeship program. The only real debate centered on whether one gets accepted during their seventh year and "taken on" begins with receiving the acceptance letter, or whether you start counting "taken on" as the first day of the training.
If 7th years receive acceptance letters about the same time of year that the 5th years are receiving career advice, that allows enough time for Tonks to get trained and to have begun her second year as auror.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 7, 2007 8:54 am (#77 of 367)

Edited Oct 7, 2007 9:47 am
I spotted this as well, Chemyst. I suppose we'll have to say, 'Whoops! Minnie McG didn't know about Tonks (although they are both members of the Order of the Phoenix).'

I find Snape to be a bit like Kreacher during his last year of life. Taking orders from a portait?

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freshwater - Oct 7, 2007 9:38 am (#78 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Interesting point, P.P. Both reviled...isolated.......powerful... yet enslaved to someone warped and evil....

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Chemyst - Oct 7, 2007 4:59 pm (#79 of 367)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Edited Oct 7, 2007 5:31 pm
I suppose we'll have to say, 'Whoops! Minnie McG didn't know about Tonks...

If you want. Or– you can say Minerva did know about Tonks but that she was referring to the date Tonks was accepted into Auror training, not the date Tonks became a full-fledged Auror. I prefer the second explanation because I like to think McGonagall would not make such a slip-up. And besides, if she simply hadn't known, then I'm sure Umbridge would have loved to correct her.

Since McGonagall said three years, this does leave some wiggle-room and a high probablility that someone after Tonks was accepted and has either dropped out or hasn't fully completed their training. The Lexicon addresses the timeline in an article compiled by Nathan Zimmermann. [ click here ] I think the folks at 'Prophecy 2007' should count again.)

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PeskyPixie - Oct 8, 2007 11:53 am (#80 of 367)

That's a much better way of looking at it, Chemyst.

In 'The Advance Guard' in OotP, Mad-Eye Moody repeats many times how nobody is to break ranks while transporting Harry, even if someone is killed during the journey. Kingsley answers, "No one's going to die." Well, we know how this ends in DH.

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Flo - Oct 10, 2007 1:49 pm (#81 of 367)

Hello All,

I hope this is also a thread where you can tell what "weird" things you've noticed while rereading : in Goblet of Fire, Voldemort addresses his Death Eathers and tells them something like "you know how far I've gone to escape death" (these are not the exact words, but the meaning is here, and I'm sure he says "you know"). However, in DH, Voldemort says that nobody is supposed to know about his horcruxes...

Do you guys have any explanation ?

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PeskyPixie - Oct 10, 2007 1:53 pm (#82 of 367)

Maybe not everyone has knowledge of what horcruxes are, or even that they exist? If everyone knows of them then there's no secret about how Voldie is so confident that he's immortal.

Has anyone else noticed that despite the efforts LV goes to to secure his immortality he dies at the age of 71 or 72? That's young for even modern Muggle standards!

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Choices - Oct 10, 2007 5:27 pm (#83 of 367)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think what the Death Eaters knew about were Voldemort's efforts to steal the Socerer's Stone to use it in making the Elixir of Life and also his drinking the Unicorn blood and the snake venom. I seriously doubt he shared with them his tearing pieces of his soul and hiding them in Horcruxes. We know he entrusted the diary to Lucius malfoy, but he didn't share with him what was also in the diary.

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PatPat - Oct 10, 2007 5:37 pm (#84 of 367)

I'm not so sure that's what Voldemort meant, Choices. The exact quote is:

They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard against mortal death? (emphasis mine)

The "long ago" makes me think he is referring to steps he took before Godric's Hollow. I could be wrong though. I always took the statement to mean that Voldemort had shared with his Death Eaters that he took some steps to gain immortality. That doesn't necessarily mean that he told them exactly what he did. That he was specific about the existence of horcruxes. He may have also done other things besides horcruxes that the Death Eaters were aware of.

Edited to fix formatiing error.

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NFla Barbara - Oct 10, 2007 7:27 pm (#85 of 367)

Voldemort trusted no one and confided in no one. But he did want his followers to be impressed with him. It makes sense to me that he would have told them a highly selective version of some of the things he had done -- hints of dark magic that was far beyond their abilities, etc. -- without coming out and saying "I split my soul to create horcruxes."

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Veritaserum - Oct 10, 2007 10:05 pm (#86 of 367)

Go Jays!
I agree, PatPat and NFla Barbara. I read the line the same way. That they knew he did all kinds of extensive work to ensure his immortality doesn't mean they knew the exact methods.

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Steve Newton - Oct 12, 2007 7:03 am (#87 of 367)

Librarian
In DH, after the Gringotts episode, Voldemort kills many who had heard of the horcrux. Mostly they seemed to be goblins but some wizards. It sounds as if some made it out. This reinforces my idea that knowledge of horcruxes would be deadly knowledge. On the other hand Trixie seemed to know what was in her vault. So, while I don't think that Voldemort shared the knowledge of any horcruxes, I am not sure. He may have told Trixie that there was one but I don't know.

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Choices - Oct 12, 2007 5:27 pm (#88 of 367)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I guess I did not make myself clear in my post. I agree that Voldemort shared with his DE's that he had done lots of things to make himself immortal - he sought the stone to make the Elixir of Life, he drank Unicorn blood and snake venom, etc. He may have hinted to them of more and darker things he had done in the past, but I do not believe he specifically told them about Horcruxes.....with the possible exception of Bellatrix. If any of them knew, it was probably Bella, but I don't think he trusted any of them enough to give out specifics of what he was doing with his soul to achieve immortality.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 12, 2007 9:48 pm (#89 of 367)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Has anyone else noticed that despite the efforts LV goes to to secure his immortality he dies at the age of 71 or 72? That's young for even modern Muggle standards! Pesky Pixy

Yes, true. But..., Voldemort is so evil that his life is doomed from the word go. One so evil and filled with hate, who made sure he had no one with whom he truly shared any emotions, would have probably been dead much earlier.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 13, 2007 1:38 pm (#90 of 367)

I just found it rather ironic that after all the effort LV goes to to achieve immortality he doesn't even get a long life by Muggle standards.

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freshwater - Oct 14, 2007 12:49 am (#91 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I agree, P.P.....and I also find it extremely ironic that the character who goes to obscene and dispicable lengths to preserve his life, ends up effectively committing suicide, twice.

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Flo - Oct 14, 2007 12:28 pm (#92 of 367)

Thanks everyone for gving your thoughts about my question ! It is clearer now for me

I have another one ;-)

In DH, Voldermort is able to turn the potion into the basin from green to transparent, and therefore he can see that the locket is not here. But how did the basin get filled ? Dumbledore had drunk everything. Does the basin refill automatically ?

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PeskyPixie - Oct 14, 2007 12:38 pm (#93 of 367)

I assume LV places some sort of 'self-replenishing charm' on the basin as it would need to re-fill after Regulus and Kreacher steal the real horcrux.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 15, 2007 1:45 pm (#94 of 367)

I also find it extremely ironic that the character who goes to obscene and dispicable lengths to preserve his life, ends up effectively committing suicide, twice. -freshwater

I agree.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 16, 2007 3:26 pm (#95 of 367)

In PS/SS the centaurs look to the stars and say something along the lines of 'The innocent are the first to die. So it has always been ..." Does this refer to the slain unicorn or to a future death in the series (e.g. Cedric)?

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Choices - Oct 16, 2007 5:10 pm (#96 of 367)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think both, but more so about the innocent human deaths.

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mona amon - Oct 16, 2007 8:44 pm (#97 of 367)

and I also find it extremely ironic that the character who goes to obscene and dispicable lengths to preserve his life, ends up effectively committing suicide, twice. (Freshwater)

I do not agree that it was suicide. Even though he died by his own backfiring spell, I still give Harry the credit for killing him. He intended to kill him, and armed with knowledge that Voldemort did not have, he did exactly what was necessary to bring about his death.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 18, 2007 9:29 pm (#98 of 367)

I'm too anxious to get to sleep (rather important doctor's appointment first thing in the morning) ... was soothing myself by skimmng PoA. When Lupin enters the staff room with his third year DADA class for the Boggart lesson Snape leaves the room (as snarkily as possible, of course!).

Should this be taken at face value, or is Snape scooting off to not encounter the Boggart before a class full of his students? I have a feeling the Boggart would take the form of dead Lily. And Snape isn't the type to pass up bullying his 'favourite' Gryffindors and his old lupine 'buddy', is he?

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PatPat - Oct 20, 2007 9:20 am (#99 of 367)

Hmmm. Interesting thought, Pesky. That's a definite possibility, I think. Snape goes to great lengths to avoid anyone seeing his connection to Lily. Using the pensieve during Occlumency lessons. Never allowing anyone to see his patronus, etc. I think it's probably the case that he wanted to avoid encountering the boggart if possible.

I hope everything went OK with your appointment!

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PeskyPixie - Oct 20, 2007 11:54 am (#100 of 367)

Thanks for the wishes, PatPat. I went in for the results of a very important blood test and am quite relieved that everything's fine.

If Snape has no issues with the Boggart, I can easily see him sitting in his armchair in the staffroom making comments to distract Lupin and bully his beloved Gryffindors throughout the lesson.

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What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading (Post 101 to 150)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:38 am

Orion - Oct 20, 2007 11:55 am (#101 of 367)
As you mention occlumency lessons, although it's the wrong thread, but IMO someone who has to use a pensieve because he's afraid of a student's skills is probably not such a brilliant wizard after all. Harry manages to get through to Snape's own memories in one lesson, which is pretty pathetic, and he also slams him into the desk or wall or so in a DADA lesson in HBP. Both qualifies as "losing a duel", and I don't understand why forum members always describe Snape as a brilliant wizard. It always seems that he barely scrapes through, dangling from a cliff by his fingernails.

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Choices - Oct 20, 2007 12:23 pm (#102 of 367)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Congratulations on the results of your tests PeskyPixie. :-) I thought I heard a big sigh of relief. LOL I'm glad for you!

Hmmmm....connections. Yes, I have made a lot of them now that the final book is out. Hind sight is 20/20 after all.

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kingdolohov - Oct 20, 2007 12:28 pm (#103 of 367)

I'd hardly count the time that Harry knocked him back in DADA class as showing anything of the sort. Snape figured Harry wouldn't be able to do a nonverbal spell (which he couldn't and didn't), so he didn't expect Harry to be able to fight back. Not realizing that Harry wouldn't just let him jinx him had nothing to do with wizarding skills, but people skills. As for the Occlumency lessons, Harry certainly didn't get into Snape's memories in the first lesson. The time he actually manages to do so is two months into the lessons.

Snape owned Harry the night he killed Dumbledore, and managed to get away from McGonagall, Flitwick, and Sprout when the three of them attacked (and I think tried to kill) him.

To actually say something related to the thread, I like the idea of wanting to avoid the boggart because it would turn into a dead Lily. He certainly did everything he could to hide that connection. Putting his memories into the pensieve is part of that attempt. Snape wanted to take no chances that Harry would find out about it.

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megfox* - Oct 20, 2007 12:33 pm (#104 of 367)

I also think that those instances show how Harry is capable of extraordinary magic under duress - one of the reasons that he is always able to get away from Voldemort. I don't necessarily think it shows that Snape is weak. He seems to be able to do difficult magic, such as Legilimency and making Wolfsbane, even inventing his own spells, with apparent ease. There are numerous examples of Snape as a strong wizard throughout the series, as well as examples of Harry defeating his enemies through "instinctual magic" (I needed to link it back to the thread!).

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Orion - Oct 20, 2007 12:49 pm (#105 of 367)

Hmph. As for legilimency, he couldn't have been better than LV, because LV is reportedly the best, or everybody wouldn't be so scared of him. (I can't imagine someone in their right mind would be scared of poor old Snape, with the possible exception of very young Neville.) There must be a reason why LV puts him down in DH. He suspected there was a traitor before him, or he knew.

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megfox* - Oct 20, 2007 12:55 pm (#106 of 367)

But he must have been better at Occlumency than LV was at Legilimency, or Voldemort would have known he was the traitor. But this is off topic, so if we are to continue with this line of thought, we should move to the Snape thread...

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Orion - Oct 20, 2007 1:25 pm (#107 of 367)

To the oroborous? That could take some time.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 20, 2007 1:46 pm (#108 of 367)

Oroborous?????

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Orion - Oct 20, 2007 2:08 pm (#109 of 367)

The discussions on it seem, to me, lengthy in shape and tend to bite themselves in the tail, thus forming a perfect oroborous symbol. Plus, on the Snape thread I always feel like the village idiot. I have lots of hoofprints on my shirt because everybody stampedes over me when I post something stupid.

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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2007 3:11 pm (#110 of 367)

I have a random thought that passed through my head about the Kings Cross chapter after reading for the millionth time.

Harry looks down at his hands-His hands I think were probably burned and scratched from his adventures (they were semi healed with dittany) but they are clean and have no blemishes. He does not have a scar or wear glasses.

Dumbledore looks the same but his hand is undamaged.

Dumbledore would have died almost immediately from the curse attached to the ring if Snape had not helped him.

The potion Dumbledore drank in the cave induced your worst memories and excessive thirst. Some other spell forced you to drink the lake water because you could not conjure a goblet that would hold conjured water. Drinking the lake water activated the inferi. Voldemort would not wait to question as you would be a significant threat if you got this far-the inferi would get you. Dumbledore said the potion was not a health drink but I think that it was the ring curse finally begining to overtake him. He was semiconcious when he got back to the castle but I think that a huge surge of adrenalin/will power (to see his plan with Snape carried out) probably allowed him to survive a little longer. Was it the AK that killed him or was he hit with the spell the second he died? When Snape first treats him after the ring curse he has his eyes shut and finally stirs after Snape gives him the gold potion. I think that Dumbledore actually died between the AK being cast and hitting him otherwise he would have had his eyes open and there would have been a vacant stare.

Before Harry became an accidental horcrux he had no scar and did not wear glasses. We know that his Dad wore glasses but it does not necesarily follow that Harry would need them. The rebounding curse had a lot of energy (it parly destroyed the house) and I would expect very powerful light. This may have dammaged Harrys eyes or induced sight problems at an earlier age than would have been expected. A lightining shaped scar was formed.

The lack of damage to either of them suggests that they have been repaired to a stage before they died (before Dumbledore put on the ring) or became the accidental horcrux. Harry had aged 17 years so he appears as an adult without glasses and a scar and undamaged skin. The horcrux has been removed so its like it was never there in the first placed.

Feel free to attack the theory-especially the bit about the final cause of death not being the AK (I am not 100% convinced myself on that)

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 20, 2007 3:18 pm (#111 of 367)

In my opinion, the state of their bodies in King's Cross simply represented the state of their souls. But that's just my opinion.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 20, 2007 3:37 pm (#112 of 367)

Edited Oct 20, 2007 4:14 pm
Yes, Orion, the Snape thread is a bit of an elite clique, isn't it ? I felt like the village idiot/outcast the first few times I tried to participate, but have persevered and been let into the club!

(BTW, the above should be taken tongue-in-cheek)

ETA: This is not so much a connection after re-reading than delayed realization. Parvati and Padma Patil's names follow the trend of HP girls being named for flowers and goddesses.

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Choices - Oct 20, 2007 6:02 pm (#113 of 367)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree with you Mrs. Brisbee - that in King's Cross, your soul matters more than the physical body, so the purity of their souls sort of cancelled out any physical blemishes or imperfections.

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wynnleaf - Oct 21, 2007 6:58 am (#114 of 367)

Orion and PeskyPixie,

I know this is OT, but I just wanted to say that on the Snape thread I think that people have such strongly held views that, in order to discuss things, people get very exacting with their thoughts. People mostly know all the same "facts," but have drawn differing conclusions. It's the combination of the various clues that bring people to different opinions, and discussing it usually means hashing through lots of various details. So people are routinely correcting each other on the details, and disagreeing on where those details lead us.

But truly, I don't think anyone means to be disagreeable. It's just that Snape is the most controversial character and even people that like him, like him for very different reasons, so the discussions can get intense.

Please don't be too afraid of the thread. No point in saying it's not intimidating, because it can be. But the discussion is usually pretty intense and thought provoking, which can be fun once you learn not to take it personally.

PeskyPixie, good news on your tests!

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Orion - Oct 21, 2007 7:42 am (#115 of 367)

I'll try and tell myself it's great fun next time somebody jumps down my throat.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 21, 2007 7:49 am (#116 of 367)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
In the shrieking shack, Lord Voldemort is contemplating, he knows that his plans are not working as he wished them too. He learned about the elderwand over time as Harry does. It takes him a while to arrive at the conclusion that he is not the master of the wand.

It is a slow progression even at the very last moment LV doesn't figure out all of the secrets of wand lore, obviously.

On re-reading, I thought that LV makes to decision to finish Severus almost as he is saying it. This was not a long term plan on his part.

The problem on the Snape thread is there is too much dense material for me to keep up. By the time you've read everyone's posts, and responded or formulated your own theory and posted it, the discussion has moved 50 posts forward. I find myself either reading but not posting or posting but not reading.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 21, 2007 12:49 pm (#117 of 367)

I forgot to add this in my previous post, but 'Padma' means lotus in Sanskrit, but I'm sure you all knew that anyway!

I love the variety JKR uses in her selection of flowers for HP girls's names.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 21, 2007 2:37 pm (#118 of 367)

D'oh! Too late to edit my previous post!

I just wanted to thank PatPat, Choices and wynnleaf for their kind words regarding my rather important blood test this past week.

Now, back to the discussion ...

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PatPat - Oct 21, 2007 5:02 pm (#119 of 367)

Of course, Pesky. We forumers stick together! I'm glad to hear all is well.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 23, 2007 4:21 pm (#120 of 367)

Sorry for taking this thread off topic.

Where were we? Ah yes, so Padma means lotus in Sanskrit, on with the discussion ...

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jo bot - Nov 4, 2007 10:20 pm (#121 of 367)

You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them. —Ray Bradbury
I have read everyone’s post here, and I’d like give my two knuts.

Didn’t Sirius convince Lily and James (James in particular) to switch secret-keepers at the last minute? So, Snape could still maintain that it was because of Sirius (although indirectly) that Lily died?

‘You can tell a lot about how a person treats his inferiors, not his equals’—we have talked about how this idea applies to Sirius, Barty Crouch Jr., and our opinions of certain characters. I would say that phrase can be applied to many characters in the series and in particular, it parallels LV’s actions and contrasts Harry’s actions. Maybe it is just too obvious, but as I was reading the posts, it jumped out at me.

I was watching CoS last week (I know non-canon, but I think that I remember it in the book). The scene after Harry ‘helps’ Lucius free Dobby, where Dobby asks if he can do anything for Harry, when Harry asks for Dobby to never try to save his life again…Powerful! I think that it foreshadows Dobby's 'life saving' role in the rest of the series. The advice to use the RoR in OotP and all of his help in DH. Those were just the two I could think of off of the top of my head.

Also I felt that through the whole of DH, there were many instances that Harry and Co. were nearly done in, but for the bumbling and squabbling between the DE's. I remember that that often happens in OotP and HBP as well. I would say that it shows a pattern of behavior more than it casts new light on various past activities— i.e. every one wants the credit, but no one is willing to just do the work.

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PeskyPixie - Nov 6, 2007 1:30 pm (#122 of 367)

Yup, I've looked it up in CoS. Here's the exact quote: 'Least I could do Dobby,' said Harry, grinning. 'Just promise never to try and save my life again.'

Golly, that's just too sad.

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PeskyPixie - Nov 12, 2007 12:47 pm (#123 of 367)

The first time I read the books I was surprised by Snape's familiarity with and use of Muggle terms ('science', 'fairytale', 'matchbox'). Of course we now know that he is half Muggle and grew up in a half-Muggle household.

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Chemyst - Nov 26, 2007 7:45 am (#124 of 367)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I think that Dumbledore actually died between the AK being cast and hitting him otherwise he would have had his eyes open and there would have been a vacant stare. - legolas returns

At the end of HBP I believed that. I think it was my 'wanting' Snape to not be a murderer. Now, after DH and some JKR interviews, I think it had to be the something else that killed DD because if DD did not die by the method of his own choice, then that means Voldemort killed him; which is worse. Both the closed eyes and the flying body are a bit of a problem compared to other AK deaths we know of, so I just tell myself that Dumbledore was such a powerful wizard, even when wandless, that he chose to die from the fall off the tower. This way Snape's soul is not torn by murder, Voldemort does not get a notch on his wand, and Dumbledore controls his own destiny. That is my story on the re-read, and I'm sticking with it.

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PatPat - Dec 2, 2007 6:25 pm (#125 of 367)

I like that, Chemyst.

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valuereflection - Dec 3, 2007 10:49 pm (#126 of 367)

When I read legolas returns' theory, I was struck by a new idea to explain how and why Dumbledore floated down from the tower instead of falling as compared to other AK deaths.

Now that we know how Snape felt about Dumbledore, and how much Snape did not want to fulfill the assignment to kill Dumbledore, I think Snape cast a second spell, nonverbally, at Dumbledore to care for his body. Snape cared about Dumbledore and respected him -- enough to pay one final act of respect toward his corpse. Snape had planned how to kill Dumbledore beforehand. He would not have wanted Dumbledore's body to plummet like a rock and then splatter into a gory mess. I think he could have cast a second spell at Dumbledore nonverbally, in order to prevent watching Death Eaters from guessing that he cast it, immediately following his AK.

If Snape did cast a second spell, it might have been the same spell which Hermione described for Harry in Prisoner of Azkaban chapter 9, when Dumbledore "ran onto the field as you (Harry) fell, waved his wand, and you sort of slowed down before you hit the ground." (She went on to describe how Dumbledore cast a nonverbal Patronus charm at the dementors.)

Has anyone already proposed this idea?

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PeskyPixie - Dec 3, 2007 11:21 pm (#127 of 367)

I'll go back to read your post in a minute, Valuereflection. I just need to get an idea down before I lose it.

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but I've just realized that the young survivors of the Battle of Hogwarts are all able to see Thestrals from that day on.

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Choices - Dec 4, 2007 12:41 pm (#128 of 367)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Valuereflection, interesting idea about Snape casting the second spell (Arresto Momentum from the movie). Perhaps that could account for the fact that Dumbledore did not fall immediately, but hovered for a moment before falling. If Snape did cast it, it could have been what caused Dumbledore to "hover".

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PeskyPixie - Dec 10, 2007 2:29 pm (#129 of 367)

When Harry attempts to retrieve the sword of Gryffindor from the icy pond, Snape sees him in his underpants. Ah, sweet revenge for Harry glimpsing his lovely, grey undies in the Pensieve!

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zelmia - Dec 11, 2007 12:49 am (#130 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
How do you figure? Snape wasn't using any sort of "seeing stone" or anything, was he? I thought he just apparated there long enough to place the Sword then sent his Patronus to lead Harry to it.

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mona amon - Dec 11, 2007 7:55 am (#131 of 367)

I thought he was hiding behind a tree and watching Harry, and when he didn't surface after submerging himself in the pond, was about to come and rescue him. At least that is what I read into these few lines-

'You didn't see anyone else?'

'No,' said Ron. 'I-'

But he hesitated, glancing at two trees growing close together some yards away.

'- I think I saw something move over there, but I was running to the pool at the same time....'

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PatPat - Dec 11, 2007 8:35 am (#132 of 367)

Yeah, that's how I read it too, mona. Plus, Snape had to be sure Harry got the sword. It wouldn't have done much good to leave it and take off, then find out later Harry had drowned or froze to death.

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zelmia - Dec 11, 2007 12:31 pm (#133 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Oh yeah, right. Good call. Of course, Harry has an excuse for tatty undies since he's been on the run and camping out for months.

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PeskyPixie - Dec 11, 2007 4:10 pm (#134 of 367)

PatPat and Mona, that's how I read that moment as well. There's no way Snape would just leave Gryffindor's sword in a pond, send out his patronus and hope that his idea works. If Dumbledore orders it for the 'big plan', Snape will follow through responsibly. I'm only sorry we don't get to see his side of it. I've particularly missed Snape's 'Snapeyness' in DH and can only wonder what goes on in his head as Harry nearly gets himself killed in the pond. I'd like to know his thoughts and mental comments about Harry over The Tales of Beedle the Bard any day!

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Madam Pince - Dec 12, 2007 5:36 am (#135 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Now there's an idea for JKR for her next book! She knows Snape has a lot of fans (even if she can't understand why.) There has been a recently-released book called Rhett Butler's People, which as I understand it is basically a re-telling of Gone With The Wind, except it's from Rhett's viewpoint rather than Scarlett's. If they can do it for that epic classic, why not for Harry and Snape?

Connections made after re-reading... I am listening to PoA on tape, and just finished CoS on tape. I'm still on the fence about how I like that format, but one thing's for sure -- I'm noticing lots of things I never noticed before. One major thing is Ron's appetite. In DH when Ron went all "angry Ron" I could not understand his behavior. I was thinking "What in the world is wrong with him???" I thought the appetite thing was a huge cop-out excuse. However, just in listening to those two books, I am amazed at how many references there are to Ron being hungry, saying "I'm starved," or relishing eating. There are tons! I missed that completely on my read-throughs, but I'm catching it now as I'm listening.

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Orion - Dec 12, 2007 7:48 am (#136 of 367)

Another thing I never really understood was why Harry goes into the pond with his underpants on. WHY? They are bound to freeze on his... on his... skin. Pneumonia is on the way if you wear wet clothes when it's freezing. It would have been a lot more sensible to strip off, because there was nobody there. Well, there was, but he didn't know, did he? And so what anyway?

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Choices - Dec 12, 2007 2:32 pm (#137 of 367)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
That sounds like a good idea, but what if Hermione had wandered upon the scene instead of Ron? Yikes!

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Luna Logic - Dec 12, 2007 3:30 pm (#138 of 367)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Maybe it was magical underpants which did not freeze?

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PeskyPixie - Dec 12, 2007 3:40 pm (#139 of 367)

LOL, or maybe Hermione placed a non-freezing charm on all undies when she packed them!

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PatPat - Dec 12, 2007 5:32 pm (#140 of 367)

Madam Pince, that's an excellent point about Ron's appetite. There are numerous references in all of the books to him being hungry or talking with his mouth full! In this vein, his behavior in DH makes sense. JKR also makes an excellent point about Ron really never having to go hungry. Harry is used to this, living with the Dursley's who nearly starved him a couple times. But Ron lived with Mrs. Weasley who, despite the poor budget, always seemed to have enormous amounts of food for the family. Add this to the effects of the locket horcrux and we can see why Ron went off the deep end (pun intended!). Though I admit, I, too, was getting rather annoyed with him! He came through in the end, though, as always! That's our Ron!

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zelmia - Dec 12, 2007 8:38 pm (#141 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well, Harry didn't really help that situation by basically calling Ron a "mama's boy".

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Marie E. - Dec 13, 2007 9:10 am (#142 of 367)

I know the movies are not cannon, but there's that scene in OoP where Hermione gets annoyed with Ron for always eating and he's shoving a giant sausage in his mouth.

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Denise P. - Dec 13, 2007 9:48 am (#143 of 367)

Ravenclaw Pony
Don't forget, while he is shoveling sausages into his mouth in that scene, he is reading a book called "Cram It!"

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 13, 2007 5:12 pm (#144 of 367)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Dang Denise, I was drinking, now I'm wiping...

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PatPat - Dec 14, 2007 7:06 am (#145 of 367)

Well, Harry didn't really help that situation by basically calling Ron a "mama's boy". zelmia

True, but this was only after Ron had already started verbally attacking Harry. Harry responded with anger, his main fault.

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Holly T. - Dec 14, 2007 9:30 am (#146 of 367)

I think that Ron, with all of his insecurities about money, Harry's fame, etc. never realizes the Harry is jealous of him for having a home and a family. Harry calling Ron a mama's boy is not just an angry insult, but also a reflection of how Harry is jealous of Ron.

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Potteraholic - Dec 14, 2007 1:48 pm (#147 of 367)

"Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent - and a nice thirst to prove yourself ..." (PS/SS)
Am posting this excerpt from the Dec. 14th issue of Entertainment Weekly's DVD section about OotP in a few threads since Ron's eating habits are popping up all over:

And most important, the teen actors get better with every outing. The confused look on Ron's (Rupert Grint) face as Hermione snippily asks, "Do you ever stop eating?'" is simply wonderful. It's one of the most natural recation shots in the entire series, a three-second distillation of what makes 'Phoenix' perhaps the best Potter film yet.

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zelmia - Dec 14, 2007 10:13 pm (#148 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Excellent point, Holly!

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 14, 2007 10:35 pm (#149 of 367)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"I think that Ron, with all of his insecurities about money, Harry's fame, etc. never realizes the Harry is jealous of him for having a home and a family. Harry calling Ron a mama's boy is not just an angry insult, but also a reflection of how Harry is jealous of Ron."

I agree with Zelmia, excellent point, but I'd take it a step further and say that during the "camping trip" that all are one an equal footing, and that Ron eventually realizes this fact. Ron is jealous of what Harry has, and Harry is jealous of what Ron has. Untill this book though, neither recoginises what their feelings relate to. With Ron, it is materialistic, with Harry it is a sense of belonging. In other words, they are both "growing up".

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Julia H. - Dec 15, 2007 5:16 pm (#150 of 367)

Here's a connection that I've made:

In The Tale of the Three Brothers we learn about three great wizards and the three hallows. In The Forest Again chapter, Harry thinks of Hogwarts as home: "He and Voldemort and Snape, the abandoned boys, had all found home there..." Three generations, three lives. Now back to the tale: "the oldest brother, who was a combative man, asked for a wand more powerful than any in existence". The oldest of the "abandoned boys", Voldemort, who becomes evil beyond redemption, does ultimately the same. "And so Death took the first brother for his own." The second brother, who took the Resurrection Stone, brought back a girl he once had hoped to marry and who had died. The second generation of "abandoned boys" is Snape, who once went wrong but was able to turn back. He too loved a girl who died young. Snape does not actually look for the Resurrection Stone but I think it would have been the greatest temptation for him. That may be one reason why Dumbledore does not mention the Stone to him when Snape asks him why he put on the ring. He wants to save Snape from this temptation. (We might perhaps say that even without the Stone, Snape's life after Lily's death is - symbolically - about trying to bring her back "driven mad with hopeless longing".) In the tale, only the youngest brother survived, the wisest, who wanted the Invisibility Cloak. Now, that's of course Harry, who stands firmly on the good side all the time (and makes extensive use of the Cloak!). He is the third generation "abandoned boy". Three "brothers", three sons of Hogwarts: the oldest is evil, the youngest is good, and the middle one turning the balance towards the good side - the Tale of the Three Brothers expanded in 7 volumes.

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What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading (Post 151 to 200)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:40 am

shepherdess - Dec 15, 2007 6:29 pm (#151 of 367)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Wow, Julia, that is an impressive connection indeed. I like it.

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freshwater - Dec 15, 2007 8:15 pm (#152 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Well spotted and well presented, Julia...take 50 points for your house! I love these kinds of connections or mirror events, or rather, mirror characterizations.

Recently I finished listening to OotP on CD, and while listening to DD talking to Harry after the battle at the Dept. of Mysteries, I heard his comments in a new light.....Considering what we now know of DD's early life, and his relationship with Arianna and her sudden death, consider these statements (and my comments in italics):

"I know how you are feeling, Harry."(rather an arrogant comment unless you know of DD's own losses)

"There is no shame in what you are feeling, Harry...on the contrary...the fact that you can feel pain like this is your greatest strength."(sounds like wisdom gained through experience)

"You do care...you care so much you feel as though you will bleed to death with the pain of it."Hmmmm...maybe DD does know how Harry feels...he surely describes it with accuracy and confidence...

"YOU DON'T KNOW HOW I FEEL!" Harry roared. "YOU --STANDING THERE-- YOU--" Ah, but now we know that DD does indeed know the feeling of great loss, grief, guilt and regret.

"But I forgot--another old man's mistake-- that some wounds run too deep for the healing."Once again the voice of experience.

"You had suffered. I knew you would when I left you on your aunt and uncle's doorstep. I knew I was condemning you to ten dark and difficult years....my priority was to keep you alive."This pattern was set by DD's own mother in her attempts to keep Arianna safe...must have seemed logical to DD.

"You fought a man's fight...I was prouder of you than I can say."

"Once again you acquitted yourself beyond my wildest dreams." Two examples of how DD came to admire and respect Harry for the person he was.

"I cared about you too much...I cared more for your happiness than for your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act.....What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people cand creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, it in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy? I never dreamed that I would have such a person on my hands." This is the one of the best bits of the entire septology. The final line is particularly poignant....initially I took it to mean that DD had never had children of his own, and was overwhelmed with the emotions arising from his relationship with Harry. All of that is still true, but now we know that DD may have seen this mentoring of Harry as a second chance to protect/guide/instruct a young person in his charge, in ways that he had failed to do with Arianna.

"Harry looked up at him and saw a tear trickling down Dumbledore's face into his long silver beard." A great example of a picture being worth a thousand words...our DD, always so composed and self-possessed...handling every crisis, even his own death, with calmness, politeness and humor....reduced to tears by confronting Harry and Harry's destiny.

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Luna Logic - Dec 16, 2007 2:14 am (#153 of 367)

from the other side (of the Channel)
Dumbledore : "What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people cand creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, it in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy? "

freshwater : "This is the one of the best bits of the entire septology."

Yes, thanks for quoting the whole passage, freshwater. The sentence I have put in first shows that Dumbledore had, this time (when getting to know personally Harry), let down the "greater good", to experience simple attachment love.

Which he didn't manage to do that when he let Harry on the Dursley's door, without "accompanying" the Dursleys better.

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PatPat - Dec 16, 2007 7:16 am (#154 of 367)

Excellent points and analysis, freshwater. That is also one of my favorite scenes in the whole series. It shows, quite accurately I believe, how much Dumbledore truly came to love and respect Harry, and how much this burden was weighing on him. I can't even imagine being in his shoes, having to guide this amazing young person through to a horrible fate. As a teacher, I have seen some wonderful children going through some pretty horrific things. It is never easy. Before we criticize DD, we should remember this.

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Steve Newton - Dec 16, 2007 7:21 am (#155 of 367)

Librarian
Julia, excellent connections and well presented.

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PeskyPixie - Dec 16, 2007 12:32 pm (#156 of 367)

Great job, Julia. The second brother dies young to reside with his love in the afterlife. I think this may be stretched to include Snape (although James is there I'm sure he'll get to be friends with Lily again ... hopefully).

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Julia H. - Dec 16, 2007 4:00 pm (#157 of 367)

PeskyPixie, I hope so too!!! (Whatever James might say.)

Just one more thought: In the tale, the Hallows are the gifts of Death. In the real books it is Dumbledore who has each of the Hallows in his hands (though not at the same time), and it is certainly Dumbledore who gives Harry the Cloak, it's in his tomb that LV finds the Wand and although he keeps the Stone a secret from Snape, he does encourage him to think that he can maintain some connection with Lily through Harry. (Do we know anything about the colour of the Stone? Could it perhaps be ... green?)

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PeskyPixie - Dec 16, 2007 6:21 pm (#158 of 367)

I think the Resurrection Stone is black ... but maybe I just made that up.

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zelmia - Dec 16, 2007 6:50 pm (#159 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I believe it is described in HBP as black with a rune-ish symbol scratched on the front of it - which Marvolo Gaunt mistakenly believes is the Slytherin family crest.

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Orion - Dec 17, 2007 10:20 am (#160 of 367)

"In the real books it is Dumbledore who has each of the Hallows in his hands (though not at the same time), and it is certainly Dumbledore who gives Harry the Cloak, it's in his tomb that LV finds the Wand and although he keeps the Stone a secret from Snape, he does encourage him to think that he can maintain some connection with Lily through Harry." (Julia)

I can't recall the last thing you write, but I'm hopeless with canon anyway, so can you give an example?

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Julia H. - Dec 17, 2007 3:52 pm (#161 of 367)

Orion, I guess you mean how Dumbledore encouraged Snape to think about keeping up some connection with Lily through Harry. What I meant was simply this:

(The Prince's Tale) "Her son lives. He has her eyes, precisely her eyes. You remember the shape and color of Lily Evans's eyes I am sure?"

Here Dumbledore is steering Snape towards the idea of protecting Harry. He also says:

"You know how and why she died. Make sure it was not in vain."

Of course it is only a symbolic connection but if we think of the second brother in The Tale of the Three Brothers, his way of bringing back his dead love is not a true reunion either.

If you are in doubts about Dumbledore keeping the Stone a secret from Snape, here's another quotation:

"Why, said Snape, without preamble, why did you put on that ring? /..../ Dumbledore grimaced. I ... was a fool. Sorely tempted... Tempted by what? Dumbledore did not answer."

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Orion - Dec 18, 2007 7:54 am (#162 of 367)

("The Prince's Tale) "Her son lives. He has her eyes, precisely her eyes. You remember the shape and color of Lily Evans's eyes I am sure?" "

For Heaven's sake. I never noticed that. The old guy stops at nothing, absolutely nothing to manipulate people.

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Julia H. - Dec 18, 2007 11:01 am (#163 of 367)

And he says that when this unhappy creature is crying desperately in front of him stricken with the pain of unbearable loss and guilt.

So, shall we say that in The Tale of the Three Brothers Dumbledore would play the part of Death (with LV, Snape and Harry featuring as the three brothers)?

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Orion - Dec 18, 2007 11:46 am (#164 of 367)

Obviously.

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PatPat - Dec 18, 2007 5:10 pm (#165 of 367)

Dumbledore is not being manipulative here! He is simply trying to get Snape to see past his hatred and despair and make something of his life. Dumbledore allowed Snape to turn back to good and have purpose.

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Lady Nagini - Dec 18, 2007 5:56 pm (#166 of 367)

I don't see why the two are mutually exclusive. DD is urging Snape to open his mind to the possibility of not hating Harry, if you will, but he's doing it to further his own ends. Classic Dumbledore, right? Trying to get the best out of people because it really is what's best for everyone?

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Madam Pince - Jan 7, 2008 12:44 pm (#167 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
In listening to the PoA audiobook, I just now noticed something I didn't recall from my first read (of course I never remember the "dreams" anyway, but...)

Right after the Gryffindor-Ravenclaw Quidditch match, Harry has a dream about walking through the forest pursuing a silvery shape, and hearing hooves. Now this is right after he conjured his first real patronus, so on my first read, I just thought that he was dreaming of patronuses. But now after DH, it seems clear that this was a foreshadowing of him following Snape's doe patronus in the forest while finding Gryffindor's sword in Deathly Hallows. It's that scene almost exactly as described.

I'm wondering now how many other "foreshadowing" type things Harry experiences. Maybe Tonks was right -- didn't she ask him once "Are you sure there isn't some Seer blood in your family, Harry?" Anyway, I thought it was cool that JKR sneaked that in there so early on in the series!

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Orion - Jan 7, 2008 2:45 pm (#168 of 367)

The Seer blood seems to be the only explanation. Do we get other examples of magical people seeing future things in their dreams? I think not. And yes, the diligence Rowling used to spread her story over seven books is awesome, and no, some mistakes in the last book don't make it a rushed affair. I couldn't do it, therefore, I shut up and admire.

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Julia H. - Jan 7, 2008 5:19 pm (#169 of 367)

It is interesting, when Harry follows the doe patronus, he expects the doe to talk to him: "And then she would speak and the voice would tell him what he needed to know." Now, isn't it exactly what Snape is going to do? Not then and there, of course, but later: to tell him what he needs to know. I wonder if it is the Seer blood in Harry or if it is somehow in connection with the doe patronus specifically that he can See.

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PeskyPixie - Jan 8, 2008 5:13 pm (#170 of 367)

Yes, I picked up on the silver doe dream as well.

Remember Harry's first dream at Hogwarts? I can't remember specifics (don't have my HP books with me either) but it is something about the Sorting Hat telling him he'd do well in Slytherin and some sort of Snapemort, if I'm not mistaken. I think Draco might be somewhere in that dream as well, but it's all getting very fuzzy now ...

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PeskyPixie - Jan 22, 2008 10:09 pm (#171 of 367)

Has everyone heard the 'Sever a snake' theory that was circulating pre-DH? Many predicted that Severus Snape would sever a snake (i.e. slay Nagini). Alas, it turns out that the snake severs a Snape.

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PeskyPixie - Feb 10, 2008 9:47 pm (#172 of 367)

House-elf magic is witnessed in GoF when Dobby raids Snape's storage cupboard for Gillyweed. I hadn't picked up on that before.

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Julia H. - Feb 11, 2008 3:27 pm (#173 of 367)

Yes, elves seem to be able to go just about anywhere where they really want to go (as long as it is not against their master's explicit wish).

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PeskyPixie - Feb 11, 2008 3:31 pm (#174 of 367)

Unless you live life on the wild side as Dobby does, bending the rules enough to allow yourself to secretly disobey by remembering to punish yourself for it.

Goodness, even if they don't want freedom yet, the least wizards can do is set up laws which protect them.

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Madam Pince - Feb 13, 2008 8:36 am (#175 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
In PoA, Dumbledore says "Prongs rode again last night" in his big finale speech.

I remember once somewhere we had a huge debate going on in some thread as to whether or not Dumbledore knew about The Marauders -- some thought he was oblivious, some thought he knew all but chose to ignore it. This quote (which I had forgotten) seems to me to show that he knew quite a bit about them -- at least he knew their nicknames.

So, not a big revelation, but hey...

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Orion - Feb 13, 2008 8:50 am (#176 of 367)

Or a big, big mistake on Rowling's side?

There is such a nice saying in the german language, but Madam Pince, please don't be upset, because you are certainly no camel! The saying goes "No matter how much grass has grown over something, there'll always be a camel who comes along and eats it." So there'll always be a canny forumer who finds the mistake!

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Madam Pince - Feb 13, 2008 8:54 am (#177 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
A canny camel... that's me all right!

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zelmia - Feb 13, 2008 9:47 am (#178 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
(Shouldn't it be a sheep who comes along and eats grass?)

Madame Pince, hadn't Lupin (or perhaps Sirius) already explained about the Map and by extension the Marauders by then? Harry goes to see Lupin immediately after that, doesn't he, and Lupin is packing.

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Madam Pince - Feb 13, 2008 11:26 am (#179 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
You mean explained to Dumbledore? I don't think so, at least not "on screen." Lupin had explained to Harry, but we don't see him explaining to Dumbledore I don't believe. However, Sirius had told Dumbledore and Dumbledore said "An extraordinary achievement -- not least keeping it quiet from me."

The old debate I was referring to was whether or not Dumbledore knew back then about the Marauders being unregistered Animagi while they were students at Hogwarts. Clearly Dumbledore knew Lupin was a werewolf because of the whole Whomping Willow/Shrieking Shack set-up which allowed Lupin to be a student, but according to the quote above, DD wasn't aware of the Animagi deal. At the time, the debate was whether DD was being completely truthful in his above quote -- some thought it unlikely that a wizard as sharp as DD wouldn't know that about his students, and thought he was just choosing to look the other way.

But, if he knew the "Prongs" nickname, that might imply he knew from way back when that they had learned to be Animagi (not necessarily, of course -- Prongs could've just been a nickname, I suppose... or maybe he just now used the term "Prongs" because Sirius had just now told him about it...) Actually, never mind -- I think I've talked myself out of it with that last observation...

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wynnleaf - Feb 14, 2008 1:09 pm (#180 of 367)

I always assumed that we were to take Dumbledore at his word in any of the end-of-the-book speeches where Dumbledore explains all. So when he said at the end of POA that Sirius had told him about the Marauders being animagi and that they'd been able to keep that a secret from him, I think we're supposed to believe him.

Of course, we find in DH that maybe some of those end-of-book DD-explains-all speeches may not have been completely true after all. I'm not sure exactly what - I'm writing off the top of my head, so to speak.

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haymoni - Feb 14, 2008 7:20 pm (#181 of 367)

I figured Sirius told him the whole story, including that of the Marauders. Dumbledore would have wanted to know how he was able to get into Hogwarts castle.

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PeskyPixie - Feb 14, 2008 10:06 pm (#182 of 367)

Dumbledore believes Sirius' story because he himself is an accomplished Legilimens, plus, he has witnessed Harry's stag patronus.

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Julia H. - Feb 14, 2008 10:21 pm (#183 of 367)

"Of course, we find in DH that maybe some of those end-of-book DD-explains-all speeches may not have been completely true after all." (Wynnleaf)

One instance I can think of is in PS when DD makes Harry believe that Snape saved his life because of his life-debt to James. The "because" part is not true, DD connects two true facts in a way they are not really connected. He has to keep Snape's secret, of course, but he does not really have to give a reason why Snape saved Harry, so mentioning the life-debt is not absolutely necessary.

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Orion - Feb 15, 2008 6:38 am (#184 of 367)

Yes, and to claim that Snape hated James because James saved his life.

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wynnleaf - Feb 15, 2008 7:27 am (#185 of 367)

Yes, as I look back at that, I really, really dislike DD doing that. He could just as easily have said something like Snape saved Harry's life because he's a teacher and takes his responsibility to keep student's safe seriously (which he did). Instead, he makes Snape look petty, even as Snape tries to protect Harry, in what could have ultimately been very dangerous for Snape, given that LV was hiding in the back of Quirrell's head.

And DD should have known perfectly well that Snape didn't hate James for saving his life. While at the time of the Prank, I'm sure DD spent time talking to all of the boys involved, and I'm sure young Snape made it clear that he thought James was really just trying to save his friends from the results of Sirius' action (which may be quite correct). I do imagine that Snape, at the time, was disgusted at the notion that he'd incurred some sort of life debt over an action that he felt was to save James' friends and not himself. Still, DD was bound to know that wasn't the root of Snape's hatred of James, even at that time.

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Julia H. - Feb 15, 2008 9:14 am (#186 of 367)

"Yes, as I look back at that, I really, really dislike DD doing that." (Wynnleaf)

I think he did a lot of harm, too. If he had just let 11-year-old Harry think that Snape had saved his life in spite of the enmity between James and himself, Harry may have been able to approach Snape with a more balanced attitude and it might even have had a long-term positive effect on their relationship (perhaps even on Snape himself, who knows...).

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Orion - Feb 15, 2008 9:39 am (#187 of 367)

You can dream.

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Julia H. - Feb 15, 2008 11:04 am (#188 of 367)

I know! (LOL!)

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zelmia - Feb 15, 2008 12:15 pm (#189 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Instead, he makes Snape look petty, - Well, Snape does a pretty good job of that all by himself. And Dumbledore's explanation to Harry, while not entirely true, does go a long way of relieving Harry of the notion that he had done anything to deserve the way Snape treats him.
But Dumbledore also admits (in OP) that he should have been honest with Harry in that moment.

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Julia H. - Feb 16, 2008 6:26 am (#190 of 367)

"Dumbledore's explanation to Harry, while not entirely true, does go a long way of relieving Harry of the notion that he had done anything to deserve the way Snape treats him." (Zelmia)

Did Harry ever have this notion? I never thought he did. In any case, the knowledge that Snape disliked him because of his father (Quirrell had told Harry that) should have been enough to relieve him of any such notion, there was no need to bring the life-debt issue into the picture. It was unfair.

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Veritaserum - Feb 16, 2008 12:04 pm (#191 of 367)

Go Jays!
Back to the initial question, of how or why Dumbledore knew to call James Prongs, perhaps it was a nickname that they used during the Order's operation, and DD just never knew the backstory of how he came to be called that.

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freshwater - Feb 16, 2008 3:35 pm (#192 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I don't really think it was wrong of DD to tell Harry that Snape was angry about owing a life-debt to James. Just because Snape hated James for the bullying which ended in Snape's calling Lily "mudblood" and her ending their friendship, that doesn't mean that he can't hate James for other reasons also. If someone you hate does you a service that magically binds you to return that favor in some way, I can see that you might be very angry and bitter about that.

DD is so very charming, admirable and likable, that I often find myself excusing behaviors in him that I might condemn in others. Telling 1/2 truths, for instance. Does anyone else feel this way?

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wynnleaf - Feb 16, 2008 5:29 pm (#193 of 367)

DD is so very charming, admirable and likable, that I often find myself excusing behaviors in him that I might condemn in others. Telling 1/2 truths, for instance. Does anyone else feel this way? (freshwater)

I used to feel that way back before DH, back when I thought he was doing it solely for good reasons. But I'm no longer so sure his reasons were quite as pure or wise as I'd hoped in the past. For instance, the idea that Snape was simply fulling a hated debt to a person he hated, when in reality he was fulfilling a debt he felt very deeply about and willingly accepted for a woman he loved, is strikingly different.

We never get the faintest idea that Harry was going around worried about what he'd done to "deserve" Snape's dislike. Yes, he wondered why Snape disliked him, but he didn't seem to feel the slightest bit of guilt about it. DD didn't need to blame Snape saving Harry on the life debt in order to alleviate any misplaced guilt on Harry's part.

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Julia H. - Feb 16, 2008 5:53 pm (#194 of 367)

Well said, Wynnleaf.

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mona amon - Feb 16, 2008 8:41 pm (#195 of 367)

I don't really think it was wrong of DD to tell Harry that Snape was angry about owing a life-debt to James. Just because Snape hated James for the bullying which ended in Snape's calling Lily "mudblood" and her ending their friendship, that doesn't mean that he can't hate James for other reasons also. (Freshwater)

Snape did not owe James a life debt for pulling him out of the tunnel any more than Ginny owed Harry a life debt for saving her from the Chamber of secrets. The case of Peter and Harry was completely different. Dumbledore accuses Snape of hating James because James saved his life, when the truth was that Snape hated having his life saved by James because he hated him already.

DD is so very charming, admirable and likable, that I often find myself excusing behaviors in him that I might condemn in others. Telling 1/2 truths, for instance. Does anyone else feel this way?

To me it doesn't sound like a half truth so much as a whopper, and after he had promised Harry that he'd tell him no lies. I love Dumbledore, but I feel more irritated with him in this scene than anywhere else in all seven books.

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freshwater - Feb 16, 2008 11:18 pm (#196 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
"...Snape hated having his life saved by James because he hated him already."

I agree with that, mona.

As to the reasons DD gave Harry for Snape's intervention when Quirrel hexed Harry's broom....that did occur in PS/SS.....Harry was only 11 years old. That was really not the time to get into the finer points of Snape's relationships with Lily and with James. In fact, DD apparently felt bound to confidentiality regarding this topic, as he never satisfied anyone's curiousity as to /why/ he so completely trusted Severus Snape.

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Julia H. - Feb 17, 2008 2:20 am (#197 of 367)

"That was really not the time to get into the finer points of Snape's relationships with Lily and with James." (freshwater)

Of course not. But there was no need to give any specific reason why Snape had saved Harry's life. It would have been enough to say that the enmity between Snape and James did not prevent Snape from saving Harry's (a student's) life and that was all. DD would have kept Snape's secret and told the truth at the same time.

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mona amon - Feb 17, 2008 8:44 am (#198 of 367)

I agree, Julia. All Harry asked DD was whether it was true that Snape hated him because he hated his father, and DD's initial response, "Well, they did rather detest each other, not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy.", would have been more than enough. The whole mendacious explanation is so pointless and so unlike Dumbledore that I rationalise it this way-

This is the earliest book. Maybe she had planned the James/Snape relationship in such a way that DD's words were at least partly true at that time. Then as she wrote the other books, maybe James started changing, became less of a hero, more of a bullying git...umm...something like that.

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PeskyPixie - Feb 17, 2008 7:27 pm (#199 of 367)

" ... as she wrote the other books, maybe James started changing, became less of a hero, more of a bullying git...umm...something like that." -mona amon

That's an interesting idea, mona. The young James we come to meet in the later books does not live up to the noble image painted in the earlier books. Was it done intentionally to shock us, or did the characters of James and Severus change as the story progressed?

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zelmia - Feb 17, 2008 10:09 pm (#200 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Yes, he wondered why Snape disliked him, but he didn't seem to feel the slightest bit of guilt about it. - Who said anything about "guilt"? But clearly any little boy who comes to a new school and discovers that one of the teachers not only can't stand the sight of him, but also goes out of his way to make that point over and over, is going to be a bit put off by it.
In addition, Dumbledore knew that Harry thought that Snape was trying to steal the stone and that, in Harry's eyes, Snape appeared to be "the baddie". In my view, as unnecessary as it might have been, Dumbledore simply wanted to explain the entire scope of Snape's behaviour.

ETA: Oh, I see now, I should not have used "deserved". Sorry about that. I really should pay more attention to what I'm supposed to be doing instead of the Forum.

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What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading (Post 201 to 250)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:41 am

wynnleaf - Feb 18, 2008 1:47 am (#201 of 367)
Dumbledore simply wanted to explain the entire scope of Snape's behavior. (zelmia)

No, DD didn't want to "explain the entire scope." If he had, he wouldn't have lied about it, would he? I can't even think of a reason to do it. All he need have said was that Snape and James had a mutual enmity like Harry and Draco. That, in fact, was all the explanation DD gave Harry for why Snape had acted meanly to him. The life debt explanation wasn't to explain why Snape acted nasty to Harry, but to explain why Snape saved Harry's life. DD could just as easily have said that Snape did it because that was his duty as a teacher, to protect the students. Why blame it on the life debt? That only comes out making Snape look worse, because DD was basically telling Harry that Snape hated James for a petty reason, which (as far as I'm concerned) was a lie. Yes, I agree, Snape does do petty things, but that doesn't some how make it okay for DD to lie about something like that and make Snape look even worse -- particularly when the whole question was why Snape saved Harry's life, which, after all, had not even a remotely petty reason behind it.

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zelmia - Feb 18, 2008 7:01 am (#202 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
No, DD didn't want to "explain the entire scope." - In your view. But Harry never asks why Snape saved his life. He asks only if it's true that Snape hates him, and Dumbledore explains that, yes it is true.

HARRY: Quirrell said [Snape] hates me because he hated my father. Is that true?
DUMBLEDORE: Well, they did rather detest each other. And then your father did something Snape could never forgive. He saved his life. Funny the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt...I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even.

Personally, I don't understand why you keep insisting that Dumbledore is lying here. At this point, Dumbledore wasn't aware of "the Prank" - at least, not the whole story behind it. So what he says here, while I do agree is a bit more than Harry really needs to know, does seem to me to be what Dumbledore genuinely believed to be the case.

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Julia H. - Feb 18, 2008 7:51 am (#203 of 367)

"I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even."

You see, this is it. DD knows this is not the reason why Snapes protects Harry. Snapes does not protect Harry for any debt he feels towards James, he protects him for Lily. DD cannot tell Harry this but he does not have to give a reason that is not true either. Whatever way Snape behaves towards Harry, DD himself says that his commitment to protect Harry is the best of Snape - it is not fair to deliberately diminish this commitment by telling a lie about the reason. It would have been quite OK for an 11-year-old to understand that hating James made Snape be mean to Harry in class but that was just as far as this hatred would go and Snape was still quite ready to protect Harry's life when he saw Harry was in danger because that was a completely different issue, a completely different dimension. It would have been both true and understandable for Harry.

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freshwater - Feb 18, 2008 8:26 am (#204 of 367)

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Snapes does not protect Harry for any debt he feels towards James, he protects him for Lily....it is not fair to deliberately diminish this commitment by telling a lie about the reason.

But, Julia, it seems to me that, here, you are assuming a better knowledge of Snape's reasons for protecting Harry than DD knows, or even that JKR knows! Maybe even more than Snape himself knows!

Yes, by the end of DH we know that Snape committed to protecting Harry --from LV, and from all attendent dangers-- because of his undying love for Lily. That is true and no one can dispute that. But loving Lily need not be his only reason for protecting Harry. Having a life debt to someone you despise could easily become a powerful motivation to "even the score" and so feel a bit less indebted. This is not to say that Snape's desire to nullify the the life-debt ever, in any way, replaced his desire to serve Lily by protecting her son. But this does not have to be and "either/or" kind of thing. It seems to me to be a "both".

You are welcome to argue that Snape's dedication to Lily was the pre-eminent reason for his saving Harry in PS/SS, but you cannot argue that it was the only reason unless 1)JKR tells us so in an interview, or 2) Snape tells us so on the page, or 3) you have a cauldron-shaped scar on your forehead that allows you periodic glimpses into Snape's mind.

I hope my comments have not come across as argumentative or unkind. I have deliberately tried to interject some humor to demonstrate that I am not heated up over this, and I do not think that you are either. But I do know that I can sometime speak plainly, and that it is all too easy to misinterpret meanings in e-mails where facial expression and voice inflection are missing. I honor your examination of this issue, and only wish to broaden the basis of this discussion a bit.

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Orion - Feb 18, 2008 9:09 am (#205 of 367)

"HARRY: Quirrell said [Snape] hates me because he hated my father. Is that true? DUMBLEDORE: Well, they did rather detest each other. And then your father did something Snape could never forgive. He saved his life. Funny the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt...I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even." (Original quote provided by zelmia)

The infuriating thing about this exchange is the much too personal, intimate style in which a headmaster converses with a student about a member of his staff. You just don't do it. Especially the jovial "funny the way people's minds work" - with this sentence he gangs up with Harry against Snape, making him look like a neurotic head case (which he is, in a way, but it's none of the business of a twelve-year-old). A headmaster should remain firmly on the side of his or her staff and keep the professional distance between staff and students intact, especially with such a young child.

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freshwater - Feb 18, 2008 10:57 am (#206 of 367)

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You know, Orion, you make a good point about DD's need to maintain a certain distance or level of respect for staff with a student. But....at the ripe old age of 50 now, I find myself viewing nearly all human interactions through the lens of what I've learned about human nature. It makes sense to me that, at DD's advanced age of about 150, he might see far more commonality between Harry and Snape, than we would between a typical student and a typical professor. And, DD is not actually criticising Snape....in stating "Funny how people's minds work, isn't it?", he is simply grouping him with the rest of us emotionally vulnerable humans who often react surprisingly or unpredictably to a given circumstance. I've always thought of this revelation of DD's as fairly compassionate. He could have taken the path of condemning Snape's classroom behavior towards Harry (which would have been inappropriate, IMHO, Orion, just as you suggest)....Snape certainly provided enough foundation for that.

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wynnleaf - Feb 18, 2008 11:12 am (#207 of 367)

No, DD didn't want to "explain the entire scope." wynnleaf

In your view. (zelmia)

No, it's canon. In DH we can plainly see DD say to Snape, "Help me protect Lily's son." The entire reason he uses for Snape to protect Harry is Lily. Dumbledore is perfectly well aware why Snape stayed on to protect Harry. He used the Lily "card" himself in pushing Snape to agree to protect Harry. To then act like a life debt to James is the reason, and make it seem like Snape is only protecting Harry out of a petty desire to get a life debt out of the way so he can go back to hating James in peace is totally unnecessary.

If DD wanted to "explain the entire scope," why tell Harry something he knows isn't the "entire scope?" If he truly wanted Harry to know "the entire scope," yet told Harry something that wasn't true, what are we supposed to think? That Dumbledore was just a bit dim-witted? Dumbledore did not tell Harry the "entire scope," therefore I have to assume that DD didn't want to tell Harry the "entire scope." It's either that, or DD was being extremely loopy.

We have canon for why Snape was protecting Harry and it's directly at Dumbledore's request -- for Lily's sake.

Further, I completely agree with Julia. Dumbledore's entire approach to Harry as regards Snape was a wrong response. Harry was 11 years old. Yes, Snape's a harsh teacher, but DD had known that for years and allowed Snape to go on that way. I agree that Harry needed some sort of explanation for why Snape seemed to particularly hate Harry. But Dumbledore could have simply stopped with the fact that Snape and James so thoroughly disliked each other. Harry could understand that. He didn't need the thing about the life debt. DD had already answered Harry's concern about why Snape hated him. He didn't need to go on to give an answer for why Snape saved Harry's life.

The implication was that without the life debt, Snape might not have cared much of anything about saving Harry's life. Is Harry supposed to believe that if someone cursed his broom the next year, as far as Snape was concerned, Harry could just die? But we know that's not true and Dumbledore was well aware of it. Snape would have always protected Harry for Lily's sake.

And even beyond Lily, we can see that Snape worked to protect other students as well through the series. He's harsh to them in class, but he does work to protect students besides Harry. So he'd probably have tried to protect Harry anyway regardless of Lily, just because he was a student. And Dumbledore could have used that as an explanation, if he felt Harry needed to know why Snape tried to protect him.

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Julia H. - Feb 18, 2008 11:23 am (#208 of 367)

"But, Julia, it seems to me that, here, you are assuming a better knowledge of Snape's reasons for protecting Harry than DD knows, or even that JKR knows! Maybe even more than Snape himself knows!" (freshwater)

Oh, well, I don't know. In "The Prince's Tale", it is quite clear that Snape undertakes the task of protecting Harry in order to ensure that Lily's sacrifice should not be in vain. Snape is talking to DD, so DD (and only DD, nobody else) knows that Lily is his motivation. Elsewhere (in another memory and in POA) we learn that Snape does not think much about his "life-debt" to James. While we never see that Snape actually tells this to DD, it is not probable that he would ever tell DD that he wants to be "even" with James. So DD knows about Snape's noble motivation and may - at most - suppose that there is another (less important and less noble) motivation, yet he chooses to mention the latter (I don't blame him for not mentioning the former!) and in a way as Orion has described it. On top of that all, DD must know what James did was not quite as noble as it sounds, still James (who stopped a dangerous practical joke from being carried out) appears to be a hero, while Snape, who "worked so hard to protect" Harry during the school-year suddenly seems to have done nothing really significant.

Nobody could agree more than I do that Snape's motivations tend to be complex, but DD here would do more justice to Snape if he did not discuss his motivations at all.

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zelmia - Feb 18, 2008 1:49 pm (#209 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Ah! Thanks, Julia, for explaining the "lying" on Dumbledore's part. While I now understand your view, and agree (as I have done) on the point that perhaps Dumbledore didn't need to go into quite so much detail about Snape, I agree with Freshwater - and thank her for her simple, yet elegant, arguments - that Dumbledore does seem very compassionate here.

Again, Dumbledore was not aware of the entire story behind "the Prank" at this point so as far as he knew, Snape may very well have felt resentful of a perceived Life Debt to James. Additionally as Dumbledore had also just flatly refused to tell Harry the real story that we come to learn in OP and finally in DH ("Alas, the first thing you ask me I cannot tell you"), he compromised by revealing something that, while not exactly a lie, was enough to satisfy Harry, whom Dumbledore felt had the right to know as much as a little boy could handle under the circumstances. Dumbledore also later realises his mistake in not telling Harry the truth (OP) and severely rebukes himself for it.

Orion, too, makes a good point about Dumbledore crossing that boundary between Student and Headmaster. However, I have always made an exception for him in these instances because we know that Dumbledore was Harry's de facto guardian and as such would certainly take more of a personal interest in Harry. But in this case, Harry had been quite seriously injured trying to, in his own way, protect the Stone, largely out of his sense of loyalty to Dumbledore.

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freshwater - Feb 18, 2008 2:02 pm (#210 of 367)

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We have canon for why Snape was protecting Harry and it's directly at Dumbledore's request -- for Lily's sake.--wynnleaf

Not to beat a dead horse here, but DD's explanation to Harry in PS/SS is also canon. While it is not the whole story (as we learn in DH)it is part of the story and is not necessarily a lie. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as to whether it was appropriate, or advisable, or not.

"...I agree with Freshwater - and thank her for her simple, yet elegant, arguments - that Dumbledore does seem very compassionate here.--zelmia

Awww....thanks, zelmia! **blushing**

Elsewhere (in another memory and in POA) we learn that Snape does not think much about his "life-debt" to James.--Julia

I don't recall that, Julia, but that certainly doesn't mean that I disagree! If you remember where that is, please let me know.

Nobody could agree more than I do that Snape's motivations tend to be complex, but DD here would do more justice to Snape if he did not discuss his motivations at all.--Julia

Very well put, Julia. I can agree with that completely.

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Soul Search - Feb 18, 2008 2:52 pm (#211 of 367)

Looking back, I see Dumbledore's discussion with Harry about Snape and James to be a deliberate red herring. JKR used "always tells the truth" Dumbledore to tell us Snape felt he had a life debt to James. He didn't. Snape's real motivation, Lily, wasn't even mentioned. Even the implicit suggestion that Snape cared one whit for Harry, enough to save him from Quirrell, wasn't true; Snape only cared for Lily.

Readers have to wait for OotP to get even ambiguous clues about Lily: Petunia's "that awful boy" and Snape's worst Memory. Neither even hinted to what we learned about Lily and Snape in "The Prince's Tale."

It seems JKR wanted Lily/Snape to be a big shocking surprise.

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freshwater - Feb 18, 2008 3:07 pm (#212 of 367)

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Hmmmm...that perspective makes a lot of sense to me, Soul Search...thanks!

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mona amon - Feb 18, 2008 9:44 pm (#213 of 367)

I hope my comments have not come across as argumentative or unkind. (Freshwater)

You worry too much, Freshwater! We are used to heated arguments on the Snape thread.

Not to beat a dead horse here, but DD's explanation to Harry in PS/SS is also canon. While it is not the whole story (as we learn in DH)it is part of the story and is not necessarily a lie.

It's cannon, but does not seem to me to be the truth, or even part of the truth. For it to be the truth, Dumbledore would have had to really believe that Snape felt indebted to James for saving his life, and was trying to even the score, and the only way he can learn this is from Snape himself. We know how Snape felt about it. He was always telling anyone who would listen that James did it only to save his own behind. He certainly does not seem to feel that he owes James anything. So how could DD have got that impression?

Again, Dumbledore was not aware of the entire story behind "the Prank" at this point so as far as he knew, Snape may very well have felt resentful of a perceived Life Debt to James. (Zelmia)

When Snape meets Dumbledore on the windy hill top to warn him that Voldemort is after the Potters, we see that he does not care a jot whether James gets killed or not. He would, if he felt he owed James a life debt. And DD is very much aware of this, even if he didn't know the full story behind the prank.

And, DD is not actually criticising Snape....in stating "Funny how people's minds work, isn't it?", he is simply grouping him with the rest of us emotionally vulnerable humans who often react surprisingly or unpredictably to a given circumstance. I've always thought of this revelation of DD's as fairly compassionate. He could have taken the path of condemning Snape's classroom behavior towards Harry (which would have been inappropriate, IMHO, Orion, just as you suggest)....Snape certainly provided enough foundation for that. (Freshwater)

Nothing compassionate about first fabricating a story about Snape's motivations, and then grouping him along with the rest of emotionally vulnerable humanity.

...he does work to protect students besides Harry. So he'd probably have tried to protect Harry anyway regardless of Lily, just because he was a student. And Dumbledore could have used that as an explanation, if he felt Harry needed to know why Snape tried to protect him. (Wynnleaf)

I completely agree, Wynnleaf. I very strongly feel that if DD wanted to explain anything to Harry, this is the point he should have explained. It would have been instructive to open an eleven year old's eyes to the fact that people can still do their duty towards someone, in spite of disliking them personally.

Looking back, I see Dumbledore's discussion with Harry about Snape and James to be a deliberate red herring. (Soul Search)

I too feel that's quite possible (though I do not agree that Snape's sole motivation was Lily). And as usual poor Dumbledore's character has to bear the brunt of JKR's plot considerations.

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zelmia - Feb 18, 2008 10:47 pm (#214 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
When Snape meets Dumbledore on the windy hill top to warn him that Voldemort is after the Potters, we see that he does not care a jot whether James gets killed or not. He would, if he felt he owed James a life debt. And DD is very much aware of this, even if he didn't know the full story behind the prank.

Ah... Good point, Mona.

I very strongly feel that if DD wanted to explain anything to Harry, this is the point he should have explained. - And Dumbledore himself agrees with you and says so to Harry later on.

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Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 4:58 am (#215 of 367)

"Thanks, Julia, for explaining the "lying" on Dumbledore's part." (Zelmia)

I do think it is a lie - even if only the "because" part of it - and he promises Harry not to tell lies.

Soul Search, of course, it is a red herring but this does not justify DD's behaviour (only JKR's).

"Elsewhere (in another memory and in POA) we learn that Snape does not think much about his "life-debt" to James.--Julia

I don't recall that, Julia, but that certainly doesn't mean that I disagree! If you remember where that is, please let me know." (Freshwater)

Freshwater, I can't give you the exact quote now but in the "Snape's Grudge" chapter of POA, he tells Harry exactly what he thinks of James saving his life. He tells him James was saving his own and his friends' necks in the first place, because they would have been expelled if Snape had died. So he can't think he is really indebted to James for that.

"Dumbledore also later realises his mistake in not telling Harry the truth (OP) and severely rebukes himself for it." (Zelmia)

Great! So even DD agrees!

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wynnleaf - Feb 19, 2008 5:11 am (#216 of 367)

Dumbledore also later realises his mistake in not telling Harry the truth (OP) and severely rebukes himself for it. (zelmia)

Where is this in OOTP? Do we see that DD is sorry he told Harry that Snape saved his life due to trying to get rid of a life debt to James? What exactly does DD say he was sorry for in that regard? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

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freshwater - Feb 19, 2008 10:11 am (#217 of 367)

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We know how Snape felt about it. He was always telling anyone who would listen that James did it only to save his own behind. He certainly does not seem to feel that he owes James anything. So how could DD have got that impression?--mona amon

We know what Snape told us....but reading between the lines it is clear to me that Snape is pretty unhappy about the entire situation. It may be true that Snape truly does not feel that he owes James anything....then again, it may be true that he feels an implied obligation because of James' actions, no matter how Snape wishes to characterize it to others.

Am I now assuming to know Snape better that he knows himself --as I suggested (kiddingly) to Julia earlier? Maybe! Or maybe I'm just making the connections that we do as readers when it seems "he doth protest too much" to be taken completely at his words. I don't think it is made completely clear in canon. Although I will check out the "Snape's Grudge" chapter of PoA....thanks, Julia!

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PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 10:24 am (#218 of 367)

I was thinking ... perhaps the 'life debt' depends on one's sense of obligation rather than some magical retribution if it is not fulfilled. Maybe Dumbledore just believes that Wormtail's life debt to Harry will work out to Harry's benefit because Albee always sees the good in people, however flawed they may be?

I was reading the first chapter of PS/SS and realized that the timeframe of The Boy Who Lived also includes a heartbroken young Snape sobbing in Dumbledore's office, as well as the vow which gains more protection for Harry Potter as well as sets Severus Snape on his path to redemption.

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Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 10:32 am (#219 of 367)

Very well said, Pesky.

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Soul Search - Feb 19, 2008 10:56 am (#220 of 367)

If there was a magical "life debt" Snape owed James, or if Snape just assumed a "life debt" because of the prank, the time for Snape to repay it would have been on the windy hilltop with Dumbledore or even in Godric's Hollow when Voldemort came to kill the Potters.

Snape specifically excluded James from his hilltop request of Dumbledore and wasn't in Godric's Hollow.

I interpret this to mean there was no magical "life debt" nor did Snape assume a "life debt" to James. Snape tells Harry that James warned him only to save Sirius and Lupin from consequences should Snape be harmed. Not only is this actually what Snape believed, but I think it is likely close to the truth. Not to say James wanted to see Snape dead, just that his overriding motivation was to protect his buddies, Sirius and Lupin.

I have been suprised how much of my interpretation of events, and especially interpersonal relationships, changes because of the backstory revealed in "the Prince's Tale." The whole series takes on a different flavor when re-reading.

The most dramatic changes, not surprisingly, are with Snape and Dumbledore. But, also, knowing the childhood scenes changes Petunia and Lily. This might be worth some discussion.

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mona amon - Feb 19, 2008 11:32 am (#221 of 367)

I was reading the first chapter of PS/SS and realized that the timeframe of The Boy Who Lived also includes a heartbroken young Snape sobbing in Dumbledore's office, as well as the vow which gains more protection for Harry Potter as well as sets Severus Snape on his path to redemption. (PeskyPixie)

I have been suprised how much of my interpretation of events, and especially interpersonal relationships, changes because of the backstory revealed in "the Prince's Tale." The whole series takes on a different flavor when re-reading. (Soul Search)

Ha, you both have tempted me! I'm going to do another re-read of the series.

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Steve Newton - Feb 19, 2008 11:33 am (#222 of 367)

Librarian
I have been uncomfortable with the idea of a life debt. It occurs to me that the term does not appear in the books (my sometimes faulty memory says that Dumbledore tells Harry that Peter is in his debt) and, as far as I can tell, Peter's problem comes because he has a remote speck of scruples which makes him hesitant to obey and, well, you know. I don't see any evidence of any sort of a magical life debt.

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freshwater - Feb 19, 2008 12:29 pm (#223 of 367)

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"Not to say James wanted to see Snape dead, just that his overriding motivation was to protect his buddies, Sirius and Lupin."--Soul Search

I think you are probably right on the money on this, SS. But that motivation is not a bad thing. When Harry prevents Sirius and Lupin from killing Peter in the Shrieking Shack, it is not because he so desperately wants to save Peter...it is because he does not want Sirius and Lupin to be killers. And at that point in PoA everyone seems to find that very admirable of Harry. Why would it be any less admirable for James to do the same thing?

Perhaps the most admirable thing to do would be to selflessly rescue someone from certain death --perhaps even a death coming about as a consequence of their own choices or actions-- but we humans are rarely given such direct choices.

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Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 12:45 pm (#224 of 367)

"But that motivation is not a bad thing." (Freshwater)

No, it isn't. It just does not make Snape indebted to James. Pettigrew's case is different because in principle Harry has the right to wish him dead for what he did (and so do Sirius and Lupin to some extent), while in the Prank it is Sirius who starts the rather irresponsible joke.

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PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 12:52 pm (#225 of 367)

And at that point in PoA everyone seems to find that very admirable of Harry. Why would it be any less admirable for James to do the same thing? -freshwater

Because Peter Pettigrew is guilty of being an accessory to murder while young Severus is just a nosey sneak of a kid.

I don't know whether this makes James' actions any less 'heroic', but it does indicate a greater level of maturity on Harry's part.

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Orion - Feb 19, 2008 1:07 pm (#226 of 367)

I was reading the first chapter of PS/SS and realized that the timeframe of The Boy Who Lived also includes a heartbroken young Snape sobbing in Dumbledore's office, as well as the vow which gains more protection for Harry Potter as well as sets Severus Snape on his path to redemption. (PeskyPixie)

Oh no! We are watching the live broadcast! Only we aren't, because Rowling doesn't show us the really interesting scenes behind the scenes. It feels much more recent now, not so ancient and historic as it used to. (Back in the mists of time, when a very young Snape was sobbing in DD's office...)

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Soul Search - Feb 19, 2008 1:35 pm (#227 of 367)

"I was reading the first chapter of PS/SS and realized that the timeframe of The Boy Who Lived also includes a heartbroken young Snape sobbing in Dumbledore's office, ..." (PeskyPixie)

We have wondered about the timeline of events just after Godric's Hollow and, particularly, what Dumbledore was doing in the 24 hours that Hagrid had Harry. Well, now we know part of it. Dumbledore was consoling Snape in his office.

Is there anything in the scene that can confirm it occurred within that 24-hour span?

Good pickup, PeskyPixie.

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Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 2:08 pm (#228 of 367)

"Is there anything in the scene that can confirm it occurred within that 24-hour span?" (Soul Search)

I think it did occur then. In DD's office it seems (on the basis of the intensity of Snape's reaction) Snape has just learned what happened to the Potters and that is closely connected with the great news of Voldemort's disappearance and this piece of information travels fast all over the country that day - it is unlikely that Snape does not hear about it within 24 hours.

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wynnleaf - Feb 19, 2008 2:46 pm (#229 of 367)

The fact that Snape had just appeared to have learned of their deaths tells us that he probably had no warning that LV was going to Godrics Hollow to kill them. In other words, he learned about it through either DD, or through the usual channels of the Wizarding World, but not as the attack on Godrics Hollow took place. Therefore, Snape's not being at Godrics Hollow to help rescue anyone is not an indication of any view of the life debt.

However, if he felt he truly did owe James some sort of life debt, one might think he'd have been a little more concerned about James' possible death. On the other hand, he loved Lily sooo much, that it makes sense that when he went to DD, his only thought was of her. Further, it would have been utterly pointless for him to have asked LV to save James and Harry, as they seems to have been the prime targets for LV that night.

As for the 24 hours and what happened, I think JKR alluded to this during the Pottercast chat recently, I think admitting that she really had kind of lost track of what happened so there's probably not really any detailed events going on that she knows, but hasn't told us.

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freshwater - Feb 19, 2008 3:14 pm (#230 of 367)

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"But that motivation is not a bad thing." (Freshwater)

No, it isn't. It just does not make Snape indebted to James. Pettigrew's case is different because in principle Harry has the right to wish him dead for what he did (and so do Sirius and Lupin to some extent), while in the Prank it is Sirius who starts the rather irresponsible joke. --Julia -------------------------------------------

And at that point in PoA everyone seems to find that very admirable of Harry. Why would it be any less admirable for James to do the same thing? -freshwater

Because Peter Pettigrew is guilty of being an accessory to murder while young Severus is just a nosey sneak of a kid.

I don't know whether this makes James' actions any less 'heroic', but it does indicate a greater level of maturity on Harry's part. --Pesky Pixie ---------------------------------------

You both --Julia and Pesky Pixie-- seem to be in agreement with each other....and I am not exactly disagreeing...just surprised, maybe because I haven't thought of it in this way before. Here's my question: why would the relative guilt --or severity of crime-- of the person released, affect the value of the choice made by the releaser?

Are we saying that you are more virtueous when you rescue a murderer from being killed --to go on to be kissed by Dementors, BTW-- than you are when you rescue a nosey sneak of a kid from a mauling, or worse, by a werewolf? Is that first act kinder in some way? Is the rescue of the kid from the werewolf less good, in some way?

I am asking sincerely because this puzzles me, and I would like to understand your thinking on this matter. My answer to the questions I posed, would be 'no', and 'no'. But I am interested in your thoughts.

Also, Julia, I don't follow your reasoning that James' saving Snape did not necessarily cause a life debt (well, I could accept that, if you didn't also state the following about Harry/Peter) but that Harry's saving of Peter does because Harry has the right to wish him dead. So....Harry is "entitled" in some way to wish Peter dead, but allows him to live, so that creates a life debt......but James despises Snape, but does not wish Snape to be dead, so saves him from a trap set by others and that does not create a life debt? This seems contradictory to me....can you help me to understand it? I think that we may be drawing our lines a bit too finely here......

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PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 3:19 pm (#231 of 367)

I was putting together a sort of timeline and as the entire wizarding world seems to know of the events at Godric's Hollow in The Boy Who Lived, (which takes place over almost 24 hours) I assumed Snape's breakdown (the one we witness in The Prince's Tale) falls somewhere during this timeframe.

Just because JKR has lost track of time it doesn't mean that, "it didn't happen".

" ... why would the relative guilt --or severity of crime-- of the person released, affect the value of the choice made by the releaser?" -freshwater

I understand what you mean, and included my opinions in the following line of that post. I'll go back and copy it for you.

ETA: Got it! "I don't know whether this makes James' actions any less 'heroic', but it does indicate a greater level of maturity on Harry's part," because Harry has a big enough heart to overlook the fact that Peter 'is the reason [he] has no parents' in order to save his Sirius and Lupin from becoming murderers.

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Madam Pince - Feb 19, 2008 3:49 pm (#232 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
At this point, Dumbledore wasn't aware of "the Prank" - at least, not the whole story behind it. So what he says here, while I do agree is a bit more than Harry really needs to know, does seem to me to be what Dumbledore genuinely believed to be the case. --zelmia (I think? it was?)

Sorry to disrupt the thread of the discussion because this goes back a ways, but I need a little help here... why do we think Dumbledore wasn't aware of all the undercurrents surrounding "The Prank"? I was under the impression that DD knew the whole deal, because of the between-the-lines discussion that Dumbledore and Snape had in PoA where Snape was saying "You surely don't believe a word of Black's story? ... Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen... You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?" and Dumbledore replies "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus." I believe that implies Dumbledore knew exactly what went on.

Also, Steve Newton -- I know what you mean about the "life debt" thing. It bothered me, too, and I had the same question you did -- was there an actual mention of the phrase "life debt" or was that something we as readers made up? It seems to me that we had this discussion once before and someone pointed out to me that the exact phrase "life debt" was in fact used by JKR -- I can't name it right now, but I'm fairly certain it was pointed out. I will give it some search-time in the next day or so hopefully...

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Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 4:11 pm (#233 of 367)

Freshwater, this is not at all what I meant. I think it would have been relatively easy to understand Harry if he had let Sirius and Lupin kill Peter right there and not interfered. But he did interfere. True, it was not because he forgave Pettigrew (something that could not have been reasonably expected of him just then) but because he did not want his father's friends to commit murder. The dementor's kiss is far from being mercy but Harry may have felt at the time that it should be wizarding law that decided the fate of Pettigrew rather than revengeful individuals and this is in itself a fairly mature approach. (How indebted Pettigrew should have been for that - it may be an open question. Maybe he was indebted only because he felt to be so - and this was because he managed to escape after all.) The situation in the Prank was different: Sirius knowingly (and carelessly) endangered Snape's life (and whatever their relationship was, this is something that crosses an invisible line in teenage enmities) and had Snape died, Sirius would have been responsible for his death - without any real mitigating circumstances: he had no justifiable right at any level whatsoever to decide whether Snape should live or die. I agree that James did the right thing when he went after Snape but it was not a moral decision like Harry's. Harry's decision was between pure vengeance and objective justice, while James simply saw that they all would be in trouble if Sirius's mad idea came true.

You are asking: "why would the relative guilt --or severity of crime-- of the person released, affect the value of the choice made by the releaser?" Well, the fact is that I don't think Snape deserved the death penalty or werewulf bite penalty at all - he had no "crime", while Pettigrew certainly deserved some kind of legal punishment (whether it should be death or Azkaban is a question that would lead too far away). Yes, Pettigrew was in danger because of his severe crime but Snape was in danger because of an irresponsible joke - not saving him would have been a hardly justifiable decision. Having said this, I repeat: James did the right thing, in other words the only right thing he could do but his main motivation was very likely to save his friends (and maybe himself), so Snape did not need to feel indebted to him. Maybe it was Sirius who had to feel indebted to James (for saving his soul?), I don't know. It is not saying that James did something wrong, it is simply that his friend had done something wrong and he was trying to make it right and he did not do it for Snape. I am not even saying that Harry was necessarily any more admirable than James only that the two cases were clearly different.

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Soul Search - Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm (#234 of 367)

All we really know of a "life debt" is that Dumbledore told Harry Pettigrew had incurred one, and that Pettigrew hesitated in strangling Harry when Harry reminded him of it. We extrapolated the Harry/Pettigrew life debt to James/Snape because it seemed to fit, yet was never acknowledged in canon.

Looking at both situations, my read is as follows:

In the Shrieking Shack, PoA, Pettigrew begs Harry to save him. Pettigrew asks an indulgence of Harry, and Harry grants it. Harry saves Pettigrew's life. Pettigrew, thereby, incurs a life debt to Harry.

Snape asks nothing of James. James warns Snape, and Snape's life (or something) is saved. Snape didn't ask anything of James, so no life debt is incurred. (Plus all that about James motivations.)

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wynnleaf - Feb 19, 2008 6:07 pm (#235 of 367)

What is the difference in the life saver?

One 13 year old boy is so caring about life that he would prevent two grown men from taking the life of a mass murderer who had brought about the deaths of both his parents.

The other 15 year old boy knows that his best friend has engineered a prank to get their school-boy rival horribly killed by another of their good friends. This boy cares more about saving his two friends from the consequences of the "prank," than he does the life or death of a 15 year old boy whose greatest "crime" is to be nosy, sneaky and want to get them expelled after they bully him relentlessly.

I think the difference is that Harry is dramatically magnanimous, caring about justice, and doesn't want to see two grown men, one of which is a stranger, commit a murder. James could care less about the life of the person threatened (only months later he's willing to strip him in public because "he exists" - so Snape's "existence" means nothing to James). He only cares about protecting his, at the least, criminally negligent best friend from getting expelled or worse for engineering a murder. And he cared I'm sure about protecting Lupin, who was relatively innocent in the matter.

Peter was guilty of mass murder, including Harry's parents, and Harry still cares about seeing justice done and seeing Lupin and James do the right thing; but Snape was guilty of practically nothing (in comparison to mass murder), yet James still didn't care about his life, only that his own friends didn't get in too much trouble for getting Snape killed.

Of course, I'm assuming for this argument that James didn't really care about saving Snape's life. But like I said, only months later he obviously doesn't think Snape's very existence is worth anything more than a chance for him to humiliate and torture someone for entertainment.

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freshwater - Feb 19, 2008 9:16 pm (#236 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Thanks for taking the time to write such complete explanations, Julia and wynnleaf. I now have a better grasp of your reasoning, and agree with much of it, although not all....and we may just have to leave it that way.

"I agree that James did the right thing when he went after Snape but it was not a moral decision like Harry's. Harry's decision was between pure vengeance and objective justice, while James simply saw that they all would be in trouble if Sirius's mad idea came true.--Julia

I don't mean to split hairs, but any choice to do "the right thing" is, by its nature, a moral decision. Is it possible to weigh the quality, or measure the value, of one moral decision against another moral decision? I would say that, for us mortals, the answer is "no", or at least, "not usually."

Of course, I'm assuming for this argument that James didn't really care about saving Snape's life. But like I said, only months later he obviously doesn't think Snape's very existence is worth anything more than a chance for him to humiliate and torture someone for entertainment.--wynnleaf

I'd say that assuming that a boy doesn't not care about saving the life of another boy is a pretty big assumption, even if they frequently behave like enemies. If you look at the Harry/Draco relationship, their often treat each other as enemies throughout the 7 books....yet Harry accepts great risk --both to himself and to his destiny to finish LV-- in order to rescue Draco from the fiend fire, and then again later from a DE. Earlier in DH Lupin remarks that Harry's attitude reminds him of James, and Harry is often compared to James. Yes, I'll agree that one of James' primary motivation may have been protecting Sirius from the consequences of his thoughtless and foolish actions, but I have seen no evidence in canon --or in your views-- that James really could have cared less if Snape had died or been badly injured. What kind of a person could feel that way?....hence the saying, "I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy."

Finally, did the pensieve event (Levicorpus and "mudblood" and taking off the trousers) ocurr, in canon, months after this prank/rescue? I thought that the prank/rescue had been one of the latter events among the boys, ocurring sometime --perhaps a year or more-- after the event Harry viewed in the pensieve. But I must admit that I may be wrong about this.

EDIT: Thanks to Pesky Pixie for correcting me on the timeline! Even if James was enough of an arrogant, toe-rag to Levicorpus and "pants" Snape months after Sirius' "prank", there is a world of difference between humiliating someone in public --vile as that is-- and in allowing them to wander unknowingly into a room with a transformed werewolf.

It is not saying that James did something wrong, it is simply that his friend had done something wrong and he was trying to make it right and he did not do it for Snape.--Julia

I can agree that James did not do this solely for Snape, but how is this so veryb different from Harry's decision? Harry's friends --Sirius and Lupin-- were about to do something wrong (take another's life outside of legal jurisdiction) and Harry was trying to make it right, and he did not do it for Peter. Seems very similar to me.

I am not even saying that Harry was necessarily any more admirable than James only that the two cases were clearly different.--Julia

I think this is the crux of our different views on this, Julia, as I do not see the actions/choices by James and Harry as differing, but rather as very similar. I also believe that neither of us will succeed in persuading the other...but I appreciate your taking the time to explain your thoughts and reasoning to me --and this is true for wynnleaf, also. I can now see how you reached the conclusion you did, even though I continue to reach different conclusions.

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PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 9:31 pm (#237 of 367)

....and we may just have to leave it that way. -freshwater

No, no, no!!!!! Let's keep going.

The 'Prank' occurs before Snape's Worst Memory because, 1.the Prince's memories are arranged chronologically in this order, and 2.Lily cuts off contact with Sev after the Worst Memory, and therefore could not be walking around Hogwarts campus discussing the Prank with him if the Worst memory had taken place earlier.

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freshwater - Feb 19, 2008 9:50 pm (#238 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
....and we may just have to leave it that way. -freshwater

No, no, no!!!!! Let's keep going.--Pesky Pixie

Why, Pesky....you little cage-rattler, you! Thanks for the clarification on the timeline of events. But I don't think that Julia, wynnleaf and I will ever completely agree on this....and that's OK. I appreciate the mental gymnastics they put me through as I considered their positions and tried to set out my own. This is my favorite part of this forum....sharing ideas and insights and reasons....even, and maybe even particularly, when we disagree.

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Julia H. - Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am (#239 of 367)

All right, let's leave it like that. Only one more comment: whatever we think James's motivations were, Snape certainly saw them as he described them in POA and it is probable that he did not know anything to contradict this view, so he, in any case, very likely did not feel to be indebted to James (especially if we consider what other reasons he had later to hate James, which would probably have eliminated any kind of gratitude even if it had existed in the first place). As far as I remember that was the question at the root of this discussion. So no, Snape's reason to save Harry was not that he felt he was indebted to someone he otherwise hated.

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zelmia - Feb 20, 2008 12:22 am (#240 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
"You surely don't believe a word of Black's story? ... Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen... You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?" and Dumbledore replies "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus." I believe that implies Dumbledore knew exactly what went on. - Because he didn't know about animagus aspect, I thought he didn't know the whole story. You may be right.

James could care less [sic] about the life of the person threatened ... He only cares about protecting his, at the least, criminally negligent best friend from getting expelled or worse for engineering a murder. - Freshwater answers this nicely and I agree with her there.

Also, like Freshwater, I don't see any difference between what James did for Snape and what Harry did for Pettigrew. Both kept someone from being killed when they could have done nothing.

ETA: Yes, Pesky. That makes sense. One can respect Harry's decision a bit more, whereas perhaps not with James, even though the result of both their decisions was about equal.

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PeskyPixie - Feb 20, 2008 12:28 am (#241 of 367)

I'm not diminishing James' heroic action, but I have even greater respect for Harry for being able to overcome the need for immediate revenge on the man who handed his parents over to the Dark Lord.

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mona amon - Feb 20, 2008 12:42 am (#242 of 367)

No, no, no!!!!! Let's keep going.--

I agree! I'm not ready to let it go yet!

I can agree that James did not do this solely for Snape, but how is this so veryb different from Harry's decision? Harry's friends --Sirius and Lupin-- were about to do something wrong (take another's life outside of legal jurisdiction) and Harry was trying to make it right, and he did not do it for Peter. Seems very similar to me. (Freshwater)

I think the whole argument becomes a lot more simple if we leave the friends out of it. I mean, James may have done it for his own and his friends' sake, and Harry may also have done it for his friends' sake, but the similarity ends there.

We know that Ginny does not owe Harry a life debt for rescuing her from the chamber of secrets, because JKR said so in the leaky/mugglenet interview-

MA: Does she [Ginny] have a life debt to Harry from book two?

JKR: No, not really. Wormtail is different. You know, part of me would just love to explain the whole thing to you, plot of book seven, you know, I honestly would.

Well she didn't really explain it, but I think the difference is this-

Harry saving Ginny from the Chamber of secrets, Dumbledore saving Harry from Voldemort, and from the inferi, Harry and Hermione saving Sirius, and James saving Snape from the tunnel are all similar- they are either impulsive or planned acts to rescue a fellow human being from danger. In these cases, the rescued does not owe a life debt to the rescuer, though they may feel grateful to the rescuer for saving their lives, or not, as in the case of Snape, where the rescued suspects the motives of the rescuer.

The case of wormtail is completely different. Harry has every reason to wish him dead, and yet he saves him. It's a case of sparing his life more than saving it. This is something special, and Wormtail owes Harry for it, whether he likes it or not.

EDIT: Oops, cross posted with Julia, Zelmia and Pesky!

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Julia H. - Feb 20, 2008 3:38 am (#243 of 367)

"Well she didn't really explain it, but I think the difference is this" (Mona)

It makes a lot of sense, Mona.

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mona amon - Feb 20, 2008 4:32 am (#244 of 367)

Thanks Julia!

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 20, 2008 4:47 am (#245 of 367)

I like Soul Search's explanation: Peter asked to be saved. It's like agreeing to a contract, and I've got a big thing for magical contracts. If someone doesn't ask for the save, then they have no magical life debt. I think this explanation makes elegant sense.

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mona amon - Feb 20, 2008 5:24 am (#246 of 367)

But the way Wormtail's life-debt played out in DH, it seemed to me to be a matter of conscience rather than a magical contract. His fingers slackening on Harry's throat is variously described as a 'tiny merciful impulse', 'moment of weakness', 'his hesitation' and 'his moment of pity'. Whatever magical contract there was in that scene was in Voldemort's silver hand, which turned on it's owner the minute he betrayed that momentary twinge of conscience.

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 20, 2008 6:17 am (#247 of 367)

Pettigrew shows no mercy until Harry specifically asks him for a repayment of debt. Certainly the scene in DH shows that Pettigrew does believe he owes Harry, but then that is also consistent with consciously entering into the obligation of debt. I don't think feeling that he owes Harry and actually owing Harry are mutually exclusive. If there is a magical bond, as Dumbledore indicated, then I think Soul Search's idea of an agreed contract and a called debt fit.

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mona amon - Feb 20, 2008 6:54 am (#248 of 367)

Does Dumbledore indicate it's a magical bond? I think he says it's a bond but does not specify what sort of bond. If it was a magical bond wouldn't it have worked automatically to prevent him from harming Harry? If Harry had been unconscious or something, and couldn't remind Wormtail of the debt, what happens then?

Anyway, it may be as you say, Mrs Brisbee. But I got the feeling it was Wormtail's conscience alone and not magical intervention that makes Wormtail relax his hold around Harry's throat.

It will be nice if JKR clarifies!

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Steve Newton - Feb 20, 2008 7:12 am (#249 of 367)

Librarian
Mrs. B, once again you come up with an explanation that makes good sense. Well done.

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PeskyPixie - Feb 20, 2008 11:36 am (#250 of 367)

Mona's explanation makes more sense to me because I really don't feel a magical bond exists between Peter and Harry. I think the whole thing depends on Peter's conscience and the hope that when the time comes Harry's act of mercy will trigger gratitude, compassion and the strength to do what is right in him.

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What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading (Post 251 to 300)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:42 am

freshwater - Feb 20, 2008 11:40 am (#251 of 367)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I think the whole argument becomes a lot more simple if we leave the friends out of it. I mean, James may have done it for his own and his friends' sake, and Harry may also have done it for his friends' sake, but the similarity ends there. --mona amon

The argument might become more simple....or one might say that it becomes a different arguement! I think that what James and Harry did, and why they made those choices, are both /similar/ and the /real crux/ of the issue. What kind of a person they saved, or how the rescued person later viewed the action, is not the point here...in my mind, at least.

Harry saving Ginny from the Chamber of secrets, Dumbledore saving Harry from Voldemort, and from the inferi, Harry and Hermione saving Sirius, and James saving Snape from the tunnel are all similar- they are either impulsive or planned acts to rescue a fellow human being from danger. In these cases, the rescued does not owe a life debt to the rescuer, though they may feel grateful to the rescuer for saving their lives, or not, as in the case of Snape, where the rescued suspects the motives of the rescuer.--mona amon

But, mona, I do not see these (above, bolded) rescues as similar to either the James/Severus event or the Harry/Peter event, because the rescues you mention as not creating a life debt were all about saving someone loved and valued. (I, personally think that should create a life debt anyway, but that doesn't matter because we are actually discussing the consistency of JKR's world and rules here.) Anyway, using those examples to show why Snape did not owe James a life debt is like comparing apples and oranges...IMHO.

On another topic: But I got the feeling it was Wormtail's conscience alone and not magical intervention that makes Wormtail relax his hold around Harry's throat.--mona

I can see how you might think that, mona, but it impressed me as an act beyond Wormtail's conscious control...that hand was going to strangle Peter, despite all of Peter's efforts to stop it. But...did the hand strangle him because Peter owed a life debt to Harry and had been about to harm Harry?....or was it because Peter had a moment of conscience/pity and the evil, silver hand from LV reacted against that by attacking Peter? I don't know....any ideas out there?

BTW, did it bother anyone else that JRK described the "tiny, merciful impulse" and the "moment of pity" also as "a moment of weakness"? Perhaps LV would view mercy and pity as a weakness....well, OK, LV would DEFINATELY view them a weakness! ...but should Peter, should the reader, should JKR?

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freshwater - Feb 20, 2008 11:50 am (#252 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
OK...one final comment on Jame's motives in saving Snape: It has been argued that James only warned/stopped Snape because James didn't want Sirius to get into trouble for sending Snape to the Shack while Remus was there for the full moon. Had James' ONLY reason been to keep Sirius out of trouble, he might have let Lupin kill Snape....then who would have know how/why Snape was there to begin with? "Such a tragic accident...." they all said. But, by saving/warning Snape, James insured that Snape would report the prank to DD or his head of house, thereby getting Sirius in mega-trouble.

Given all that, one might argue that James' primary motivation was (not to bail out Sirius, but...) to prevent Lupin from committing an act which he would regret forever. While I can swallow this reason, better than the siding with Sirius one, it still does not necessarily exclude a desire to keep a person (even though it be "Snivellus") safe from injury or death.

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PeskyPixie - Feb 20, 2008 11:53 am (#253 of 367)

" ... did the hand strangle him because Peter owed a life debt to Harry and had been about to harm Harry?....or was it because Peter had a moment of conscience/pity and the evil, silver hand from LV reacted against that by attacking Peter? -freshwater

I interpreted the scene as Peter feeling a twinge of guilt when reminded by Harry that he owes his very survival to Harry's mercy. This feeling was not caused by magic but by some small speck of humanity residing deep within Peter. Dumbledore is correct in his belief that Harry's mercy will one day be an asset to him.

However, Voldy is not quite stupid himself. He knows that Peter is a coward and only returns because he has no other options left to him. LV accepts Peter back into the fold, but never trusts him. When he presents Peter with the silver hand he says, "May your loyalty never waver again." Well, now we know what happens when Peter betrays his master.

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wynnleaf - Feb 20, 2008 12:25 pm (#254 of 367)

To me, it helps to ask the question of whether the life saving person would have done the same thing for the person at risk, if other people the life saver cared about were not at risk as well.

For Harry, we have to remember that he did not know Sirius at all. Sirius had not yet asked him to come live with him. He'd only just moments before learned that Sirius wasn't a mass murderer. Harry only really knew Lupin, not Sirius. He had no personal reason to care for Sirius other than the technicality that he was his godfather. But he had no personal relationship with him. Would he have stopped Sirius from killing Peter if Lupin wasn't involved? Yes, I believe he would have. Because I think Harry wanted several things to happen. He didn't want Peter killed outright without being taken to authorities. In other words, he wanted true justice carried out rather than vigilante justice. He didn't personally want to see an otherwise good person (as far as he'd just learned) kill someone in cold blood. Harry did not feel any particular pity for Peter, although it isn't something he should necessarily have felt. Therefore, if he'd simply been observing Peter about to, for instance, fall off of a cliff, would he have helped save him? Still, I have a feeling Harry would have. Harry just tends to save people. He even saved Draco when no good friends were at risk if Draco had died and he had ever reason to despise Draco.

Now James. If James had simply heard that Snape was heading into a highly risky situation, which didn't involve any of James' friends, would James have risked his life to save Snape? I doubt it. And yet James had no extenuating circumstances like Harry did where it could be truly understandable to think the person deserved it. Would James have saved Snape from the example of the fall from a cliff? I kind of doubt that as well. I just don't see James as putting himself out for Snape, regardless of whether he truly deserved it or not. James put himself in danger for his friends. In Harry's place, in the Draco situation, teenage James would probably have let James die. And a big problem here is that unlike Harry with Peter, James should have felt for Snape, not just Lupin and/or Sirius. It should not have just been about his friends. Because Snape simply didn't deserve to die or be horribly mauled by a werewolf.

On the other hand, Dumbledore did say in POA that James, like Harry, wouldn't have allowed Peter to be killed right there in cold blood without even being taken to the authorities.

Here, however, I agree with mona. In the Shrieking Shack, Harry kind of had Peter's life in his hands. Sort of like the old Roman gladiator games with the "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" signal. If Harry said don't do it, Peter would live. If he said nothing, Peter would die.

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Julia H. - Feb 20, 2008 12:45 pm (#255 of 367)

I agree with Wynnleaf. James's general behaviour to Snape shows he felt no mercy towards him and probably would not have hurried to rescue him if it had not been for his friends' sake.

As for the "Such a tragic accident..." version: On the one hand, it would not have got Lupin out of trouble: if Snape had died or become a werewolf, Lupin at the very least would have had to leave the school otherwise parents would have taken their children home. At the same time he would have been seriously affected psychologically by what he had done. On the other hand, it might not even have worked for Sirius. If Snape had not died immediately but lived long enough to tell the tale or if he had "only" become a werewolf, Sirius's responsibility would have come to light.

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zelmia - Feb 20, 2008 1:33 pm (#256 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
James and Snape had a bitter rivalry, but that doesn't mean James would have just let Snape be killed if he could have done anything to prevent it. I don't think any halfway decent human being would let even the most bitter of enmity over-ride the moral obligation to prevent someone's death.

Snape, on the other hand, was perfectly happy to hand both Sirius and Lupin over to the Dementors - to subject him to "vigilante justice" and see them, in effect, dead - all because of his old schoolboy rivalry with Sirius. The fact that he didn't actually go through with it only just barely makes up for it, in my opinion.

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Madam Pince - Feb 20, 2008 2:06 pm (#257 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I'm with wynnleaf also (as I usually am with regards to anything Snape...)

I never got the slightest impression that James would've lifted a finger to help Snape, except for the fact that his friends were endangered by the situation as well. I got the opposite impression, in fact. I don't think he would've felt any moral obligation at all. Now, we could debate as to whether or not that feeling was due to severe immaturity (which I think it probably was...) and that James' character probably improved a bit over time.

When was Snape willing to hand Lupin over to dementors? I must've missed that.

Also, I don't think Snape saw Sirius as "just a schoolboy rivalry." He honestly thought Sirius had tried to kill him. That's a pretty serious thing (no pun intended.)

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Julia H. - Feb 20, 2008 2:47 pm (#258 of 367)

"Snape, on the other hand, was perfectly happy to hand both Sirius and Lupin over to the Dementors - to subject him to "vigilante justice" and see them, in effect, dead - all because of his old schoolboy rivalry with Sirius." (Zelmia)

Oh, no. That is what we are made to believe at the end of POA but now we know his real reason was that he thought it was Sirius who had betrayed the Potters. He did not mention it then since he wanted to keep his love for Lily a secret. He also thought Lupin was helping Sirius. It was either Lupin or Sirius who brought up the topic of the Prank and Snape took the opportunity to disguise his more important reason. Besides he did think Sirius had wanted to kill him that day and he did have a reason to hate Sirius for the Prank and other school things but his most important motivation must have been Lily - and he thought he was going to hand over a murderer and his accomplice to the dementors. Just as Harry thought in the case of Pettigrew. The difference is that Snape was mistaken about Sirius, while Harry was right about Pettigrew.

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freshwater - Feb 20, 2008 3:04 pm (#259 of 367)

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"Snape, on the other hand, was perfectly happy to hand both Sirius and Lupin over to the Dementors - to subject him to "vigilante justice" and see them, in effect, dead - all because of his old schoolboy rivalry with Sirius." (Zelmia)

"Oh, no. That is what we are made to believe at the end of POA but now we know his real reason was that he thought it was Sirius who had betrayed the Potters. He did not mention it then since he wanted to keep his love for Lily a secret."--Julia

Julia, I think my only disagreement with you may be your manner of stating things so categorically. Yes, we learned in the last book that Snape loved Lily and that many of his actions in previous books were done for that reason. But, stating that his love for Lily is "his real reason", as though it is not possible to have more than one reason for doing anything, or to have several equally important reasons....that's what makes me want to split hairs with you, when we are really not so very far apart in many of our views. What do you think? **Please don't take this a personal criticism! I certainly do not intend it as such! Just noting that --in writing-- your phrasing sometimes provokes a response from me that I'm beginning to see may not be needed. Not to assign any blame, either....I don't mean that!**

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Julia H. - Feb 20, 2008 3:08 pm (#260 of 367)

What could I say? Sorry.

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PeskyPixie - Feb 20, 2008 4:22 pm (#261 of 367)

Don't be so apologetic, freshwater! Sometimes it's just a lot of fun to heatedly debate with each other or split hairs. It's all good as long as we're friends at the end of the day.

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wynnleaf - Feb 20, 2008 6:15 pm (#262 of 367)

Why I don't think James would have saved Snape if his own friends weren't involved: because only months after his own friend almost got Snape killed, James was willing to humiliate, torment, and almost (maybe did) strip him in public for no other reason than Snape's "existence." If Snape's existence meant so incredibly little to James, I cannot believe he would have actually risked his life to save Snape. I doubt that DD ever knew about the worst memory incident, because personally I think James would never have made "head boy" if the staff had known about it.

As for zelmia's comment that Snape would have given Lupin and Sirius to the dementors -- well, for one, he may have threatened it, but Snape threatens loads of things including poisoning students or killing off their pets. He never followed through. And in this case it was the same thing. When he had Sirius unconscious and could have done whatever he wanted, not knowing that anyone (Harry and Hermione) were observing him, he transfigured something into a stretcher and lifted Sirius onto it, taking him to the authorities. That's where we learn what Snape would really do, rather than his typical over-the-top threats. Nevertheless, when he thought he was facing a mass murderer and his about-to-transform werewolf cohort, he may very well have done something drastic if they'd pushed too hard.

In any case, I hardly see what Snape's past has to do with a comparison of James and Harry's saving of lives. I'm reminded of the way people sometimes say " He did it, too!" when accused of wrongdoing.

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 20, 2008 7:08 pm (#263 of 367)

When he had Sirius unconscious and could have done whatever he wanted, not knowing that anyone (Harry and Hermione) were observing him, he transfigured something into a stretcher and lifted Sirius onto it, taking him to the authorities.

About one hundred dementors had just been driven off-- by something. I think that Snape was smart enough to figure that something powerful was out there, maybe watching him at that moment-- maybe Dumbledore, the one person who has previously demonstrated the ability to drive off one hundred dementors. I don't think Snape demonstrates that he didn't mean to give Lupin over to the dementors. I think he would have. But then Lupin runs off, removing the need to go directly to the dementors. Might as well not take the risk and get Sirius's soul sucked out by the book after that.

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zelmia - Feb 20, 2008 7:27 pm (#264 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
only months after his own friend almost got Snape killed, James was willing to humiliate, torment, and almost (maybe did) strip him in public for no other reason than Snape's "existence." - Well, to use your own expression, Wynnleaf, those two acts aren't even in the same ballpark. There is a HUGE difference between bullying someone (as disgusting as that behaviour is) and standing idly by while someone - even a sworn enemy - saunters off to his own demise. That's a really strong accusation to make when we have no evidence to indicate that James was that sort of person. A bully, a trickster, yes. But nothing more.

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wynnleaf - Feb 20, 2008 8:00 pm (#265 of 367)

No, it's quite different. For instance, comparing a person verbally taunting someone to the possibility that the person would stand by while they were killed is quite different. You were basically comparing, as though on the same plane, watching someone get killed while doing nothing and verbally taunting that person. I was not comparing them on the same plane. I was saying that James reasons for physically tormenting and humiliating Snape were directly tied to James' opinion of the value of Snape's existence. James did not just verbally taunt Snape. He physically bound him, tormented him, humiliated him in a very physical way in public, and at least came close to stripping him in public. But even that would not be evidence except that James specifically said that he did these things just because Snape existed. In other words, James was directly saying the Snape's existence was not worthy of the slightest respect.

And we're not talking about whether James would have stood by and watched Snape be killed while doing nothing. We're talking about if he would have gone out at night after curfew and risked his own life for a boy who James himself tied his own persecution of the boy to his existence.

In order to make this similar to Snape and Harry, we'd have to see Snape physically tormenting and humiliating Harry about himself not his father, James, and specifically saying he was doing it just because Harry existed. Instead, we see Snape only verbally taunt Harry about his likeness to his father, not because Harry exists. In fact, Snape occasionally makes statements to Harry about how little value Harry himself places on the efforts people make to protect his life, implying how important Harry's life is, rather than that it is of no importance whatsoever.

To put it simply, Snape is basically loathing Harry because Snape thinks he's similar to James and he dislikes what he thinks is Harry's attitude. James directly said that it was Snape's very existence that was the problem.




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freshwater - Feb 20, 2008 9:42 pm (#266 of 367)

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James directly said that it was Snape's very existence that was the problem.--wynnleaf

Lily said, "What's he done to you?" and James answered, "It's more the fact that he exists, really..." **MAY NOT BE EXACT QUOTES**

I interpret that is a bit of a toss-off answer...a bit vague and a bit cheeky. It's not like he looked her seriously in the eye and said,"This man has no right to exsist." I took James' meaning to be more like "his very exsistance is an afront to me, so I will respond in kind." Not at all admirable...the very opposite in fact, but much closer to the definition of "bullying" than "amoral."

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zelmia - Feb 20, 2008 11:30 pm (#267 of 367)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
You were basically comparing, as though on the same plane, watching someone get killed while doing nothing and verbally taunting that person. - This is for another Thread, but you are the one who actually made the comparison in the instance to which you refer, not I. What I had basically said there was that while "A" may or may not be true, "B" is definitely true from my point of view. I don't see that as a comparison.

And we're not talking about whether James would have stood by and watched Snape be killed while doing nothing. - Well, I was. You said:

If James had simply heard that Snape was heading into a highly risky situation, which didn't involve any of James' friends, would James have risked his life to save Snape? I doubt it. And yet James had no extenuating circumstances like Harry did where it could be truly understandable to think the person deserved it. Would James have saved Snape from the example of the fall from a cliff? I kind of doubt that as well.

Like Freshwater, I think it's clear that James's "because he exists" was never meant to be taken literally. But even if James did think it was acceptable to bully Snape (or anyone else) "because he exists" that is still no evidence that he would have actually let that person die if he could do anything to prevent it.

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mona amon - Feb 21, 2008 1:40 am (#268 of 367)

My interprettation of it is that James didn't really think his rescue through, anymore than Sirius thought the prank through. They were both equally impulsive acts. Sirius sends Snape off down the tunnel and then comes rushing to share the fun with James. James, appaled at Sirius's stupidity, rushes off to undo what Sirius has done. I don't think he was consciously thinking of either consequences to Sirius or about saving Snape's life. We do not know how James would have reacted in a different situation. The text is not telling.

I think the whole argument becomes a lot more simple if we leave the friends out of it. I mean, James may have done it for his own and his friends' sake, and Harry may also have done it for his friends' sake, but the similarity ends there. --mona amon

The argument might become more simple....or one might say that it becomes a different arguement! I think that what James and Harry did, and why they made those choices, are both /similar/ and the /real crux/ of the issue. What kind of a person they saved, or how the rescued person later viewed the action, is not the point here...in my mind, at least. (Freshwater)

Ok then, let's bring back the friends! The situations are still very different. In James' case, even if Snape was his enemy, it was his friend Sirius who has endangered Snape's life. I'd go so far as to say he owed it to Snape to save him once he found out what Sirius had done, especially since James knew what was at the end of the tunnel and was not afraid of it.

In Harry's case, even if Harry was saving Wormtail only for the sake of his friends (and I don't think he was. It's just a very Harry-like thing to do), he's still going against his natural inclination to see the betrayer of his parents punished as severely as possible. It's still an act of mercy. And if Wormtail has a conscience at all, he cannot escape from the fact that he owes his life to Harry.

If Snape does not like the idea of being saved by James, there are any number of ways he can get around it. "He was in on the joke, so he was saving his own skin as well as mine", or "I could have got out of the tunnel much faster if the 'hero' wasn't trying to drag me out by the collar!"

Nowhere in the book are we shown that Snape feels he owes James. On the windy hilltop Snape is only interested in saving Lily. And this is Dumbledore trying to persuade Snape to protect Harry- " he has her eyes, precisely her eyes..." and "If you loved her, if you truly loved her, then your way forward is clear." and "Help me protect Lily's son". It's all about Lily. Nowhere is there a single mention of "and let me remind you that you also owe a life debt to James".

BTW, did it bother anyone else that JRK described the "tiny, merciful impulse" and the "moment of pity" also as "a moment of weakness"? Perhaps LV would view mercy and pity as a weakness....well, OK, LV would DEFINATELY view them a weakness! ...but should Peter, should the reader, should JKR? (Freshwater)

I think Peter did view it as a weakness, because he tries to undo what he's done, but too late. The reader I suppose is meant to regard it as just the opposite. It shows that the rat-faced betrayer did have a tiny bit of conscience.

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Julia H. - Feb 22, 2008 3:11 am (#269 of 367)

"About one hundred dementors had just been driven off-- by something. I think that Snape was smart enough to figure that something powerful was out there, maybe watching him at that moment-- maybe Dumbledore, the one person who has previously demonstrated the ability to drive off one hundred dementors." (Mrs Brisbee)

Provided Snape saw the dementors. But was not he still unconscious? If he had seen the dementors, he would have had to do something about them as well, with 100 dementors around everybody nearby was in danger. Harry and Hermione saw him conscious (conjuring the stretchers) only after Harry's Patronus had disappeared.

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Hieronymus Graubart - Feb 22, 2008 4:46 am (#270 of 367)

When Harry awakes in the Hospital Wing, Snape tells Fudge that he saw the Dementors retreat to their original positions at the gates, but doesn't know why they retreated.

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Julia H. - Feb 22, 2008 5:15 am (#271 of 367)

Yes, you are right. I forgot about that part.

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freshwater - Feb 26, 2008 9:22 am (#272 of 367)

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Glancing through one of the books recently, I was pleased to come upon this:

'Mrs. Weasley was marching across the yard, scattering chickens, and for a short, plump, kind-faced woman, it was remarkable how much she looked like a saber-toothed tiger.

"Ah," said Fred. "Oh, dear," said George.'

It was fun to see a hint of what Molly is capable of, ages before her duel with Bella.

Can anyone guess the book, and the event described here?

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Orion - Feb 26, 2008 9:25 am (#273 of 367)

COS, when they have landed in the illegal car in the Burrow, after Fred and George have rescued Harry from the Dursleys'?

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Julia H. - Feb 26, 2008 9:49 am (#274 of 367)

Yes, that is it.

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freshwater - Feb 27, 2008 4:05 pm (#275 of 367)

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Julia is right, Orion...you've got it.

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Anna L. Black - Mar 17, 2008 12:06 pm (#276 of 367)

I'm nearing the end of my re-read of OOTP, and when reading about Neville, I thought of something -

Let's look at the infamous Prophecy once again: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."

Now, I admit it might be a bit of a strech, but I feel that in the end, Neville completes the terms of the prophecy just as much as Harry does:

He killed Nagini, thus severing Voldemort's last connection to life. So in a way, Neville has a hand in Voldemort's death. He had several powers that Voldemort didn't have - the magical power of summoning the Sword, but also the powers he shares with Harry - immense breavery and love. He is also (though this is more thanks to Harry) able to break free of Voldemort's curse.

Neville is also marked as equal by Voldemort, in a sense: "But you are a pure-blood, aren't you, my brave boy? [...] You show spirit, and bravery, and you come of noble stock. You will make a very valuable Death Eater. We need your kind, Neville Longbottom." It's interesting to note that Voldemort recognizes these things in Neville that he himself lacks (Spirit and bravery).

Too far-fetched, you think?

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PeskyPixie - Mar 17, 2008 3:20 pm (#277 of 367)

Not far-fetched at all, Anna.

I feel that the 'marking as equal' part is Voldy's choice in the whole thing. If he had known the entire prophecy he might have done as Harry later suggested, and waited to find out which boy would be a greater threat to him before setting off to attack one. Or maybe if he did not mark any boy as his equal he would not have created a Chosen One to begin with?

However, even if Voldy had accepted Neville as his vanquisher and Neville had managed to end up with a scar on his forehead, I think he could have fulfilled the prophecy as well as Harry does.

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Soul Search - Mar 17, 2008 6:26 pm (#278 of 367)

Anna L. Black,

Good points about Neville and the Prophecy. I agree that "... in the end, Neville completes the terms of the prophecy just as much as Harry does."

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Steve Newton - Mar 18, 2008 6:04 am (#279 of 367)

Librarian
I agree that Neville would have made an excellent Chosen One. I do wonder, though, if Neville, Ginny and Luna were Dumbledore's back up trio in case the first one failed.

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shepherdess - Mar 19, 2008 8:44 pm (#280 of 367)

55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Technically Neville was physically marked by Voldemort, too. By the time Harry returned to Hogwarts, Neville had acquired a number of scares in the name of punishments at the hands of Death Eaters who act under Voldemort's orders. It was indirect, instead of Voldemort doing it himself, but it was still because of Voldemort.

I like that thought, Steve. In that case, it's a good thing that Luna escaped the Malfoy's dungeon.

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freshwater - Mar 24, 2008 4:05 pm (#281 of 367)

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Excellent connection, Anna, and well explained....thank you! Despite all of Neville's newly shown heroism and leadership in DH I hadn't thought to make comparasions with the prophecy.

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Solitaire - Aug 17, 2008 8:24 pm (#282 of 367)

I do wonder, though, if Neville, Ginny and Luna were Dumbledore's back up trio in case the first one failed.

Are you suggesting they knew about the Horcruxes? I really don't think that is the case. I do, however, think Dumbledore was probably aware that they were the most loyal and reliable of the DA who were still at school. He obviously knew about their participation in the Battle at the DoM, and maybe he believed they could hold down the fort until the Trio did what they needed to do. Perhaps he counted on them keeping the spirit of resistance alive in the kids ... so that they would not just give in to the Carrows.

Or maybe he knew that, at some point, Harry might have to delegate part of the task to someone, since he might well die before it was all finished--as Harry obviously thought was the case when he charged Neville with making sure that Nagini was killed, in case Ron and Hermioine were ... "busy." I'm not sure if Dumbledore knew for certain that Harry would live through what happened in the Forest. He may have suspected, but I do not think he was certain.

Solitaire

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Steve Newton - Aug 18, 2008 8:16 am (#283 of 367)

Librarian
I don't think that they knew about the horcruxes but they were an experienced and able team that could be brought up to speed in a very short time.

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Solitaire - Aug 22, 2008 6:54 am (#284 of 367)

I guess I do not see them as a backup trio, but rather as an integral part of THE team. They are kind of like "wing men" in formation flying. Ron and Hermione are Harry's "wing men," too, but they are in the "slot position," directly behind Harry.

My apologies to any pilots for abusing or misusing terminology ... but that is how it seems to me.

Solitaire

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 30, 2008 4:12 pm (#285 of 367)

One of the connections I have made after rereading is how everything is in the first two books. Two of the Deathly Hallows, a Horocrux, House Elves, Centaurs aiding Harry, Wand lore, Harry wanting the Sorcerers stone but not for personal gain, it goes on and on. My favorite is Neville standing up to the trio in PS, he went on to stand up to against Snape, the Carrows and ultimately Voldemort. LPO

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freshwater - Jan 4, 2009 11:16 am (#286 of 367)

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Harry wanting the Sorcerers stone but not for personal gain...--LPO

I just finished listening to the last CD's of DH....Harry wanting a stone, but not for personal gain.....in DH, Harry is gifted w/the Resurrection Stone, and does use it in time of great need, but then discards it and chooses to make no attempt to retrieve it.

Excellent connections, LPO!

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Solitaire - Jan 4, 2009 1:03 pm (#287 of 367)

Can you hardly wait to see Neville grab the sword of Gryffindor and slice off Nagini's head? It's one of the scenes I'm most anticipating from the movie ... and they'd better not omit it!

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freshwater - Jan 4, 2009 2:45 pm (#288 of 367)

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I want to see the bit where Gran Longbottom comes through the portrait, asks where Neville is, Harry responds that "He's fighting", and Gran says, **cue imperious little-old-lady voice, like McGonagall at the age of 180** "Naturally. Excuse me, I must go assist him." THAT is my favorite bit in DH....but I'm not betting the farm that it will make it to the movie.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 4, 2009 4:27 pm (#289 of 367)

I'm almost afraid to anticipate movie scenes because of the omission piece. I do hope Neville gets to shine.

I'm reading SS and getting a kick out of future spouses meeting each other. LPO

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journeymom - Jan 5, 2009 10:00 am (#290 of 367)

I'm re-reading Philosophers Stone and noticed that in the muggle tv news that Uncle Vernon mentions, about mysterious 'shooting stars' also mention is made of an abundance of owls. Years later in OotP when Harry is listening in on muggle tv news while lying in the Agapanthus outside the window the news segment ends with a fluff story about a water-skiing budgie, and I wondered if the fact that the two TV news stories make mention of birds is not a coincidence. JKR does seem to enjoy re-using devices like that. This is in no way a significant connection, but just a bit of (very) subtle humor.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 5, 2009 9:09 pm (#291 of 367)

I like that connection journeymom! Hadn't thought of it. LPO

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TomProffitt - Jan 10, 2009 7:53 am (#292 of 367)

Bullheaded empiricist
Dumbledore states about Neville (PS/SS) that it takes much bravery to stand up to one's friends. He knew then that there was great bravery in Neville Longbottom and that he was an even worthier Gryffindor than Remus Lupin who couldn't even use his power as prefect to stand up to his friends when he knew they were wrong. --- PeskyPixie (from way back at post #40)

I'm reading the thread for the first time and wanted to post while the thought was fresh.

Could it also be a reference for how much trouble Dumbledore had in standing up to Grindelwald?

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TomProffitt - Jan 10, 2009 8:10 am (#293 of 367)

Bullheaded empiricist
I noticed that Malfoy is afraid to go into the forest because "there's all sorts of things in there - werewolves, I heard." It occurs to me that Malfoy's father was at Hogwarts at the time that Lupin and the rest of the Marauders were running around the grounds at night. Yet another statement that seemed to mean nothing at the time, but now has huge relevance to the story. --- PatPat post #72

I've always thought that if Hermione figured out what Remus was in less than a year, surely other students at Hogwarts than Snape and the Marauders must have figured out what Remus Lupin was. I think it says a lot about the kind of person he was that no one acted on their suspicions enough to have him booted out of school. He must have had a lot more friends and admirers than he ever gave himself credit for.

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Solitaire - Jan 10, 2009 12:14 pm (#294 of 367)

According to The Prince's Tale, even Lily hadn't figured it out (or wasn't letting on if she had) when she and Snape had words over his obsession with the Marauders.

"I know your theory," said Lily, and she sounded cold. "Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they're doing at night?"

and then ... "... James Potter saved you from whatever's down there--"

Even though she knew about the incident, she didn't seem to know yet that Remus was a Werewolf, even with Snape presenting her with a continual stream of evidence. Then again, it may be as you say, and perhaps she liked Remus well enough that she didn't care.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 11, 2009 10:08 am (#295 of 367)

Soli she may have been protecting Remus. She probably wasn't that close to him until she and James started dating. LPO

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Soul Search - Jan 11, 2009 3:33 pm (#296 of 367)

"She probably wasn't that close to him until she and James started dating." (Ludicrous Patents Office)

I don't know. They were both Gryffindors and in the same year. They shared classes and a commonroom. Remus impressed me as someone that would make casual acquaintances easily. Lily is smart enough to figure out the meaning of the full moon absenses. She may not of acknowledged that she knew, but she knew. Even if they weren't fast friends or anything, she would not give him away to a Slytherin by confirming Snape's suspicions. I wouldn't be surprised if more than a few Gryffindors knew about Lupin, but just never mentioned it; he was likable.

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Orion - Jan 12, 2009 12:15 pm (#297 of 367)

I don't know either, but it seems to me that Lily just doesn't get it. It's an interesting thought that she would have kept Lupin's secret when she was talking to a Slytherin, and it would mean that she was very far away from Snape then. But she sounds quite sincere.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 13, 2009 7:33 pm (#298 of 367)

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This is a tiny one, but I liked how in HBP The Secret Riddle, when DD is talking to Harry about Severus mending Katie Bell:

'Why him?', asked Harry quickly. 'Why not Madam Pomfrey?'

'Impertinent,' said a soft voice from one of the portraits on the wall, and Phineas Nigellus Black...

Then in DH The Prince's Tale Severus says:

'... attention-seeking and impertinent- '

Of course, Severus's comment occurred first, although we get it after... So it's like Phineas heard Severus say it in Harry's first year and threw it back to DD in Harry's sixth year, as if "I agree with Severus".

It's just a fun little tidbit.

(edited for clarity - and to say Thanks! tandaradei Smile )

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tandaradei - Jan 13, 2009 7:34 pm (#299 of 367)

Reference Librarian
astonishing

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Madam Pince - Jan 14, 2009 8:39 am (#300 of 367)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Excellent catch!

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What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading (Post 301 to 350)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:43 am

Orion - Jan 14, 2009 10:32 am (#301 of 367)
Cute!

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Julia H. - Jan 14, 2009 11:08 am (#302 of 367)

Yes, very good. That would imply Phineas (Sirius's great-grandfather or something similar ) agreed or sympathized with Snape even before Snape became headmaster, i.e., when he was not yet "duty-bound".

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TomProffitt - Jan 14, 2009 11:15 am (#303 of 367)

Bullheaded empiricist
Or it could just be a coincidence of two characters using a word Jo likes.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 14, 2009 1:49 pm (#304 of 367)

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Wow, Tom. You are the poster child of rhetoric, that is to say logical analysis. I don't mean that as an insult! I just don't see the world that way. There are so many words in the English language at her disposal. It's like "irksome fly" being used with young Tom upon hearing he shares his name with a barman, and "irksome fly" used when Severus hears Lily's son survived. Coincidence? To me it is to connect two points in the story, so that we might make a comparison. To each his own... I like my interpretation. It's fun!

(edited so my post can withstand disection! ; ) )

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 14, 2009 2:43 pm (#305 of 367)

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There's this great quote from Matrix Revolutions. The Merovingian says "where some see coincidence I see consequence". That's me, no coincidences in my mind.

Now, what it says about me that I relate to the Merovingian? Um, no comment ; ) Just call me Persephone...

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TomProffitt - Jan 14, 2009 4:41 pm (#306 of 367)

Bullheaded empiricist
Wow, Tom. You are the poster child of rhetoric, that is to say logical analysis. I don't mean that as an insult! --- me and my shadow 813

I don't take it as an insult. I strive for objectivity and often that means considering the unlikely or improbable. I will usually rule out those things, but I like to have it in mind when new information comes my way.

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Julia H. - Jan 14, 2009 5:07 pm (#307 of 367)

I think this is really up to interpretation. We can't see into JKR's head - we can make a connection if we want to or not at all. The books only contain the words, the connections between them are always in our heads.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 14, 2009 5:47 pm (#308 of 367)

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The books only contain the words, the connections between them are always in our heads.

Goodness Julia H., that reminds me of another quote from Matrix Revolutions (the other one was actually from Matrix Revisited).

The East Indian fellow says something like 'Love is just a word, it's the connection that the word implies that matters'. Hm... Coincidence? I think not! heh heh

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freshwater - Jan 15, 2009 12:11 pm (#309 of 367)

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After listening to Harry's conversation w/LV during the final battle (on CD) I noticed that in GoF Harry had to choose to fight LV in the graveyard in order to defeat LV and to preserve his own life, but in DH he had to choose to not fight, in order to defeat LV and win for 'the greater good'.

Just one more example that making a good choice is not always black or white...

Or it could just be a coincidence of two characters using a word Jo likes.--Tom Profitt

While I like your connection post about Snape and Ph. Nigellus both using "impertinent", me and my shadow, I'd like to point out something I've noticed often when reading HP: JKR, more than any other author I've read, seems to find a word she likes, and then she repeats it a second, third or even fourth (!) time within a page or two. I find that kind of repetition distracting --although not necessarily poor writing-- and so it tends to catch my attention. Anyway, given that the two instances of the use of 'impertinent' you cite are several books apart, I tend to think it is neither a coincidence nor a consequence, just appropriate word choice for the speaker....JM2K.

The books only contain the words, the connections between them are always in our heads.--Julia

Great quote, Julia! Reminds me of another good quote: "Just because it is happening in your head does not mean it's not real."

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 15, 2009 3:42 pm (#310 of 367)

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JKR, more than any other author I've read, seems to find a word she likes, and then she repeats it a second, third or even fourth (!) time within a page or two. - freshwater

Fair enough. I dunno, though. In The Prince's Tale memories of Severus meeting Lily, JKR uses the word "greedily" -- as you said, three or four times, within a page or two.

This, to me, is deliberate in order for us to get the gist that *in my opinion* Severus was obsessive about her from the beginning. But, yes, I suppose it isn't deliberate 100% of the time.

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freshwater - Jan 15, 2009 8:52 pm (#311 of 367)

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I think that a writer ought to be able to "get the gist" of her ideas through to her reader without being repetative. Have you SEEN the size of an Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language?!? If she can come with a word like "fug" she ought to be able to come up with a few synonyms for "greedily". Given the high level of intelligence with which she designed the plot, subplots, character names and alchemical and Christian symbolism --among other things that have kept us chatting here on the forum for years now-- the repetition of descriptors within paragraphs is just lazy editing.

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Orion - Jan 16, 2009 6:55 am (#312 of 367)

Ir maybe she really does it on purpose. I mean, she is fantastic with language. (Apart from a bit of adverbitis.) Sometimes, when newspaper journalists use many synonyms in a row because they frantically try to avoid repetitions, it gets on my nerves more than if they calmly use the same word again. Again, sometimes it's better to cut the adverb altogether, because we all have a little cinema in our minds. If a dialogue is well written, the quotes say it all.

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freshwater - Jan 16, 2009 8:07 am (#313 of 367)

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"...because we all have a little cinema in our minds."--Orion

Well said, Orion! **wondering if there are tiny boxes of popcorn in there...** But, I must admit that I am so strongly oriented towards language, that my visualization skills are rather lacking....so I don't mind JKR's adverbitis all at, but instead find in quite helpful. But that's just me....

I didn't mean to get too intense or pendantic, but I do feel that --once the HP books became best sellers-- the editors ceased doing as rigorous a job as they might have.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 16, 2009 1:37 pm (#314 of 367)

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A bit more to support my tiny theory on Phineas. In HBP when Harry keeps insisting Severus is in cahoots with Draco, DD puts his foot down and tells Harry that DD doesn't have to listen to Harry and Phineas snorts something like "I should say so..."

Will find quote and post it soon.

Have you SEEN the size of an Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language?!? - freshwater

That's my point, really. It would seem deliberate to me, using "greedily" over again rather than simply using a synonym.

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freshwater - Jan 16, 2009 2:38 pm (#315 of 367)

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It would seem deliberate to me, using "greedily" over again rather than simply using a synonym.

I can only say that this is not a ruse I have ever seen used by other authors I admire.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 16, 2009 2:43 pm (#316 of 367)

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Interesting, freshwater. It would seem like "writing 101" to, unless you are trying to create an obviousness (if that's a word)... I mean, in my creative writing classes the thesaurus is like the bible. Are you thinking because of the Mark Evans thing that JKR is a bit absent minded? Just curious about your opinion as you seem to be a "reader".

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freshwater - Jan 16, 2009 5:02 pm (#317 of 367)

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I have read extensively since I was a child, for whatever that may be worth. Still, my opinions are my own and I would not suggest that they are any sort of guideline.

I'm not sure of your meaning....are you suggesting that repeated used of the same word is a basic tenet of effective writing, as in "writing 101"?....or are you suggesting that use of a thesaurus --and so synonyms vs. repetition-- as taught in your creative writing classes is the more basic foundation of good writing?

I don't think Mark Evans has anything to do with JKR's repeated use of a descriptive word 2-4 times within 2 pages.....I think that, as she is writing, she latches onto a good word choice, and then unconsciously uses it again...and again....within the same scene. This is something that I would expect to be caught and corrected by her editors. My fear is that, since the HP books have become blockbuster best-sellers, that the editors may have taken an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach to her writing, rather than continuing to work to make each new book the best it could be.

If JKR is doing this deliberately, as you suggest, to create a mood or 'obviousness' for the reader, I can only say that it has never had that effect on me: instead I find my participation in the story interrupted as the repeated use of a key word leaps to the forefront of my consciousness and I end up wondering, "Didn't she just use that word a moment ago?....Yes, she did....and here it is again....and again!" As a reader I find it an annoying distraction from the story.....but maybe that's just me....I can certainly understand that I may not be in the majority in this response.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 16, 2009 5:42 pm (#318 of 367)

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freshwater, my *writing 101* reference meant that in my experience most writers go out of their way not to repeat in this manner to the point where in Stephen King’s On Writing” he (in a tone of exasperation) advised writers to get out of the habit of trying to find synonyms for “said”. In other words, not to use “she replied”, then “she intoned”, then “she stated”, then “she retorted”. Many aspiring writers that I know consciously look for fresh adjectives and adverbs.

That said, I can completely understand the repetition getting in the way of the flow of reading if one does not see it as a “flag” the way I do.

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TomProffitt - Jan 16, 2009 6:11 pm (#319 of 367)

Bullheaded empiricist
I've taken a couple of writing courses and I know a few of the basic rules:



don't over use adverbs, particularly when describing speech

the word "said" is almost a punctuation mark and the reader ignores it, constant synonyms distract the reader, particular when they don't make sense, like a thirty word "sigh"

try to avoid using the same discriptor close together

JKR manages to break all of these rules. She was a first time novelist in PS/SS and it shows, particularly if you know what to look for. She steadily improves on these little rules through out the series.

I think Rowling's style is pretty good, but the real strength of her work was always in her plotting and depth of character.
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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 16, 2009 7:36 pm (#320 of 367)

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Tom, that's essentially what I was trying to get at. As a novice, I would imagine JKR would have gone out of her way not to fall into these traps with the copious adverbs and annoying repetitions which "give away" amateur writing. I assume a repetition is consciously done. When I write (and I'm by no means seasoned) I basically go for a while, then refer to a thesaurus when I see I've repeated a word (other than "said"... I took Stephen King's advice to heart).

I forgot to mention that to me this series is unique regarding making implied connections. JKR has gone to great lengths to embed the series with symbolism which, unless you're looking for it, is meaningless or simply nonexistent. Couple that with her keen sense of humour and I feel that the Phineas comments I referred to could easily have been deliberate.

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freshwater - Jan 16, 2009 8:39 pm (#321 of 367)

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JKR has gone to great lengths to embed the series with symbolism which, unless you're looking for it, is meaningless or simply nonexistent. Couple that with her keen sense of humour and I feel that the Phineas comments I referred to could easily have been deliberate.--me and my shadow

Now here we are in complete agreement.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 16, 2009 9:38 pm (#322 of 367)

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Well, that makes me happy. I don't read "normal" books with the same eye that I do with this series - simply because I know most authors aren't interested in *planting little morsels*.

Above all, this work is a study in symbolism and layering, *to me* -- and I should have prefaced the "impertinent" connection with that simple statement.

After listening to Harry's conversation w/LV during the final battle (on CD) I noticed that in GoF Harry had to choose to fight LV in the graveyard in order to defeat LV and to preserve his own life, but in DH he had to choose to not fight, in order to defeat LV and win for 'the greater good'.

Just one more example that making a good choice is not always black or white... - freshwater

Great point. This reinforces the "going with your gut" - had Harry thought I fought last time so maybe I'm supposed to fight again, it would have been over. Nothing is absolute. It's noteworthy that in both instances he exposed himself - physically - but in a different stance. I would like to add that I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to save one's own life, in my opinion... the survival instinct is very real and very valuable.

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freshwater - Jan 17, 2009 9:53 am (#323 of 367)

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Since this thread is about connections, I'll go ahead and recommend a book I've recently begun to read: The Deathly Hallows Lectures by John Granger. He does quite a rigorous analysis of the symbolism and alchemy --among other things-- in the layers of meaning in book 7. My only caution would be that you might want to start with one of his earlier HP books --wish I had-- as background for the kind of data he brings to bear on DH. His website is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Another book --recommended by the publisher at the end of The Deathly Hallows Lectures-- that you might enjoy is Repotting Harry Potter: A Professor's Book-by-Book Guide for the Serious Re-reader by James Thomas, due out in Nov. 2008.

Me and my shadow, I snuck a look at your profile and was surprised --and yet unsurprised-- to see that you and I are both identified with the same "lesser HP character": "Firenze: prohibitively deep, different, and proud of it, too."




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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 17, 2009 2:41 pm (#324 of 367)

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Hmm, I wonder if he's related to Hermione ; )

freshwater, yes I'm so prohibitively deep that no one knows what the heck I'm getting at! I am working on being clear and not assuming everyone can fill in the blanks I leave everywhere in my train of thought. I love this forum!

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freshwater - Jan 17, 2009 4:41 pm (#325 of 367)

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freshwater, yes I'm so prohibitively deep that no one knows what the heck I'm getting at!--mamsh

Happens to me,too! For a special ed teacher --who often has to simplyfy tasks/concepts for students-- I can sometimes take something and make it way too complex to ever function!

This reminds me of the traditional author's note for a certain author whose work-in-progress I'm following: he expresses gratitude to his betas for their efforts to make the story clear and interesting "despite my crafty attempts to make it incomprehensible." I'll bet he's a "Firenze",too!

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 21, 2009 8:06 pm (#326 of 367)

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This isn't really a "connection" but I'm at the end of audio HBP and noticed how Harry "despised Malfoy still for his infatuation with the Dark Arts...". Interesting how it is noted to be an "infatuation" rather than an "obsession" or a "devotion" or whatever. The word was accurate, to me, by the end of the series and it enhances my feeling that JKR picks and chooses her words very intentionally.

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journeymom - Feb 19, 2009 10:20 am (#327 of 367)

In the category of "I just made a connection that others probably made six years ago".

I'm re-reading Chamber of Secrets and finished the part where Filch hauls Harry into his office, and Harry discovers the Kwikspell course.

Filch is called away to attend to something (Peeves smashes the vanishing cabinet).

Harry is left alone in his office and looks around.

Harry discovers something potentially embarrassing about Filch, that he might be a squib.

Filch comes back, sees what happened and kicks Harry out.

Compare to Snape's Worst Memory in OotP,

Harry is in Snape's office. Snape is like Filch, a staff member much reviled.

Snape is called away (can't remember why).

Harry is alone in the office and dives into the Pensieve.

Harry discovers that his father humiliated Snape.

Snape returns, sees what Harry did and throws Harry out in cold fury.

Very similar incidents.

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tandaradei - Feb 19, 2009 11:56 am (#328 of 367)

Reference Librarian
Actually yes, I agree. A good parallel. Snape has odd connections with Sev.

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freshwater - Feb 19, 2009 4:45 pm (#329 of 367)

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T, I imagine you meant "Snape has odd connections with Filch"...and you're right!

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Verity Weasley - Feb 20, 2009 2:52 am (#330 of 367)

Another connection between the two incidents is the vanishing cabinet. Snape was called away because Montague had reappeared after Fred and George pushed him into the vanishing cabinet some days earlier.

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journeymom - Feb 20, 2009 10:36 am (#331 of 367)

Excellent! That seals the connection.

It's JKRs 'mechanisms' like this that I think are so satisfyingly clever.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 20, 2009 10:54 am (#332 of 367)

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Good one, journeymom -- the Cantankerous Connection! LOL.

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John Bumbledore - May 26, 2009 10:57 am (#333 of 367)

"Tempus edax rerum." [Time, the devourer of all things.] Ovid
Snape and the vanishing cabinet recurs in HBP. Snape does not think of it perhaps because he remembers more vividly that Harry spied his worst memory. Montigue's return from the vanishing cabinet was a mere distraction, but it is what Draco is trying to repair.

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wynnleaf - Jun 22, 2009 6:13 am (#334 of 367)

I don't think this a deliberate connection, however I just thought of something that I think perhaps does reveal a bit of something.

At the beginning of DH, Voldemort is at the Malfoys, holding "court" in the dining room. Charity Burbage has been captured and is being tortured. Not content with simply keeping her in the dungeon and torturing her, LV has her suspended upside down in the middle of her enemies. JKR uses having Charity suspended upside down, helpless among her enemies while being tortured as a way to heighten the reader's sense of Charity's vulnerability and magnify LV's evil and his interest in hurting and humiliating her, not for some greater reason like his desire to get information from Ollivander about the wands, but simply from a hateful desire to hurt her just because of who she is.

JKR used a very similar method in the "Worst Memory" scene. Obviously the scene is of something on a far lower scale of hatefulness and doesn't rank as evil. Nevertheless, JKR has James suspend Snape upside down unarmed, helpless (for the moment) among his enemies, in order to have fun bullying him. Of course, it's schoolyard bullying, but the effect, on a much lower scale, is very similar. Unlike simply attacking someone, throwing a few hexes, etc., the act of suspending someone upside down and helpless gives a particular cruel edge to the scene.

In both cases, the perpetrators are not after anything. Neither has any particular purpose or goal -- no info gathering in LV's case, no revenge or punishing for nasty Dark behavior in James' case. Both act just because they can, because they dislike the other person for who they are, and to show those around them how great or, in James' case, how "cool" they are.

I'm not saying James is like LV, or that he's evil. All I'm pointing out is that JKR used a device -- hanging someone upside down, helpless amongst their enemies while the enemy hurts them for no reason -- as a way to make a strong point about the nastiness of what is being done.

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mona amon - Jun 22, 2009 8:15 am (#335 of 367)

Nice one, Wynnleaf. I never made that connection, but now that you mention it, it seems so obvious!

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Soul Search - Jun 22, 2009 9:07 am (#336 of 367)

I think the connection was deliberate, but in a different way. Snape was there, had experienced being suspended upside down so could understand Charity's panic, yet was helpless to do anything to help her. The reader had never met Charity, but Snape knew her. They were fellow teachers at Hogwarts and may have even been friends, on some level.

Upon first read, we don't know for sure what side Snape is on, so his calm demeanor, almost disinterest, pushes our opinion more towards the "Snape is evil" side.

Upon a second read, when we know Snape is Dumbledore's man, we get a better feel for how difficult Snape's dual role was. And how good he was at performing it.

Voldemort didn't particularly care about Charity Burbage. Far as we know she wasn't in the Order nor had she done anything, except teach about Muggles, against Voldemort. He was using her to show his own evil power. Snape, and maybe Draco, were the only ones in the room who would have known her. Was Voldemort using the scene to test them? Did he have doubts about Snape? Draco? A bit later Voldmeort makes Snape headmaster of Hogwarts. Was this scene a test to see if Snape could distance himself from any of the staff there? I think it might have been.

Good pickup, wynnleaf, but there may be quite a bit of "connection" in the Charity Burbage scene.

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wynnleaf - Jun 22, 2009 10:52 am (#337 of 367)

Excellent point Soul Search!

LV is unknowingly recreating a part of Snape's worst memory scene, only magnified many fold, and Snape has to stand by and watch it.

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Solitaire - Jun 22, 2009 12:55 pm (#338 of 367)

Apparently, the Levicorpus spell was Snape's. Didn't Harry find it in the Prince's book? Since he invented, he must have used it on others, at some point ... otherwise James wouldn't have known about it.

It must have been interesting for Snape to watch his own spell being used to torture someone.

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Julia H. - Jun 22, 2009 1:24 pm (#339 of 367)

Levicorpus is a non-verbal spell, so learning it by watching someone perform it would require Legilimency. Harry learns it by trying out a written spell.

I like both Wynnleaf's and Soul Search's connections. Both are absolutely valid, IMO. I also like authors who can create multiple connections using a single device and JKR appears to be good at that. It does not even matter if not all connections were consciously intended by the author (who can tell that anyway?), once the connections are there and work. Not everything has to be absolutely conscious and deliberate on the part of the writer. A novel has its internal logic.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 23, 2009 4:30 am (#340 of 367)

Levicorpus is a non-verbal spell, so learning it by watching someone perform it would require Legilimency. Harry learns it by trying out a written spell.--Julia H.

I don't agree. The Levicorpus spell that was written down as nonverbal in Snape's 6th year book, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't an earlier, verbal version. As we learned in HBP, just about any spell that can be cast verbal can also be done nonverbally. If the incantation was known, all James or any one else would need to do was see the nonverbal version being cast to learn it (if for some reason they couldn't figure it out nonverbal for the verbal for themselves).

Apparently, the Levicorpus spell was Snape's. Didn't Harry find it in the Prince's book? Since he invented, he must have used it on others, at some point ... otherwise James wouldn't have known about it.-- Solitaire

Yes, in HBP Snape complained to Harry that James dared to turn Snape's inventions back on him. I thought that clearly indicated that Snape did use his spells, and passed them to his DE Jr. friends to use also.

So in both scenes Snape is having the spell turned back against himself. With James, Snape is a DE Jr. and is made to suffer with his own invention. In the Burbage scene, Snape has turned against the DEs, but Voldemort uses Snape's spell to torture Burbage, so Snape has to observe what horrible service he has allowed his inventions to be put to.

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Julia H. - Jun 23, 2009 5:07 am (#341 of 367)

As we learned in HBP, just about any spell that can be cast verbal can also be done nonverbally. (Mrs Brisbee)

We see that certain spells can be used verbally and non-verbally. However, since Levicorpus is specifically labelled as "non-verbal", I think it must mean that Snape at least intended to use it non-verbally. Otherwise there is no point in noting "non-verbal".

If the incantation was known, all James or any one else would need to do was see the nonverbal version being cast to learn it (if for some reason they couldn't figure it out nonverbal for the verbal for themselves). (Mrs Brisbee)

If the incantation is known, there is no need to see the spell being cast. Harry does not see it, for example, he only sees the word written down and says it "inside his head" - he does not even know what it means.

I thought that clearly indicated that Snape did use his spells, and passed them to his DE Jr. friends to use also.

It clearly indicates that Snape invented the spell. That he passed it to "DE Jr's" is a possible scenario but not more clearly indicated than the scenario that James (or someone else) nicked Snape's potions book (as a mild prank) and accidentally discovered the spell.

In the Burbage scene, Snape has turned against the DEs, but Voldemort uses Snape's spell to torture Burbage, so Snape has to observe what horrible service he has allowed his inventions to be put to. (Mrs Brisbee)

Whether he allowed it or not ... yes, and it is probably a painful experience. But to be fair, almost everything can be used for good and bad purposes. In the bank, Hermione uses the spell to lift Harry into the air and this is the only way Harry can reach the Cup Horcrux. Snape does not have a chance to learn about that...

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Orion - Jun 23, 2009 5:38 am (#342 of 367)

"If the incantation is known, there is no need to see the spell being cast. Harry does not see it, for example, he only sees the word written down and says it "inside his head" - he does not even know what it means."

How horrible! It means that you aren't even able to think a non verbal wandless spell because then it simply happens. What a terrible danger for the people around you. I mean, once you know a certain spell, to try not to think it must be like not to think of a pink elephant.

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Julia H. - Jun 23, 2009 5:43 am (#343 of 367)

Well, Harry intends to try it out... That may be important. Or perhaps that is why wizards and witches need wands to perform most spells (to avoid "accidental mental magic"), while other creatures do not. Perhaps house-elves can discipline their thoughts better.

For example, Animagus magic does not require a wand (or Sirius could not do it in Azkaban) - how do you prevent yourself from turning into a dog every time you think of this possibility? You must want to do magic for the magic to work.

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wynnleaf - Jun 23, 2009 7:00 am (#344 of 367)

Because Lupin tells us that Levicorpus became a very popular spell and was being used all over the school, we really have no way of knowing how LV and Death Eaters learned it. Death Eaters may have learned it at school the same way Lupin (who doesn't know who invented it), learned it -- simply picking it up from classmates. Snape may not have actually taught it to anyone intentionally.

In any case, the DH scene is a place where Snape had to watch a spell of his invention being used to torture a colleague who is calling out to him for help. Considering that he was so interested in saving anyone he could that he even attempted to protect Lupin -- who he didn't even like -- it must have been extremely difficult to watch Charity being tortured with his own spell and have to stand by and act like he doesn't care at all.

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Soul Search - Jun 23, 2009 8:46 am (#345 of 367)

Ever since wynnleaf's "Charity Burbage" connection post I have been wondering about JKR's writing technique and whether she deliberately inserted most of the connections we have discovered or if our extensive efforts have revealed more than she intended. It's hard to tell.

She has stated that she had decided on seven books and had developed an outline for the series before SS/PS was published. We also know she wrote some parts well before she wrote the book they were in. For example, she told us the last word in the last book was "scar" before, I seem to recall, the sixth book was published. There are also some obviously deliberate "connections," for example, Hagrid mentions "young Sirius Black" in SS/PS, and then we meet Sirius in POA. But some connections are not so obvious, for example, James turning Snape upside down in OotP and Voldemort hanging Charity Burbage upside down in Deathly Hallows.

I don't think "hanging upside down" could be an accidental connection or written as an afterthought. "Hanging upside down" is too obscure an act, not particularly common in real life.

Also, she deliberately confused Snape's true nature. We received very mixed signals about Snape up until "The Prince's Tale" chapter.

So, my conclusion is that JKR outlined the Deathly Hallows "Charity Burbage" scene well before writing OotP. She intentionally made Snape the author of the Levicorpus spell and had James use it on Snape specifically to enhance the effect of the "Charity Burbage" scene and the uncertainty of Snape's loyalties.

But, now I am wondering about other authors of series. I am well read, but Harry Potter is the only series I have spent so much time on and have enjoyed discussions with others. Am I missing a lot in the books I have read, even more than once, or is JKR's "connection" style unique?

I guess I have all of you to thank for this dilemma.

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Solitaire - Jun 23, 2009 11:04 am (#346 of 367)

clearly indicated than the scenario that James (or someone else) nicked Snape's potions book (as a mild prank) and accidentally discovered the spell.

I think that's a bit of a leap. I can't really imagine James being interested in an old potions book. I think it must be conceded that Snape performed a few of his own spells in the corridors of Hogwarts over the years--he would hardly be a normal kid if he hadn't--and we know from Lupin that this seemed to be a popular spell.

I suspect that Snape would have shared some of his spells with his DE classmates (probably not the Sectumsempra), and if he were talking about them when James was nearby (and hidden under the invisibility cloak, which he seemed frequently to be), well ... That seems more likely to me, because it would have bugged Snape more to wonder how James had learned his spell! JM2K, but I think it is a plausible scenario.

you aren't even able to think a non verbal wandless spell because then it simply happens

I don't think that would be an issue. Even when Harry tries an unforgivable against Bella, she tells him he has to mean it. Oh, I see Julia has said as much.

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wynnleaf - Jun 23, 2009 11:13 am (#347 of 367)

Soul Search,

I was reading a similar line of thought about a couple of other series recently. Many authors who end up with a series don't necessarily plot out the entire series before they start. Others do.

I'm a big fan of the Scottish author, Dorothy Dunnett, often considered one of the best historical fiction writers of the 20th century. She wrote two long series -- the Lymond Chronicles and the House of Niccolo series. The broad plots were done before the series was ever started, and many of the particular series-long threads were plotted out from the beginning as well. Readers often comment on how much is missed in the first reading, but subsequent readings reveal all sorts of connections that were indeed intended by Dunnett.

It also depends on the series. Many "series" are mostly just connected by having the same characters, but don't have a lot of series-long threads. Other times, a series wasn't originally intended, or it grew to be much bigger than the author originally conceived, so that the author finds himself or herself going back into the earlier books and creating connections that weren't planned from the start. It's possible, of course, that even though JKR planned the HP series from the start, she also took advantage of some things from the early books to create connections that she didn't originally intend.

Hi Solitaire -- we posted at the same time.

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Solitaire - Jun 23, 2009 11:43 am (#348 of 367)

Readers often comment on how much is missed in the first reading

Don't you think this is true of most books that capture your imagination? I mean, why is it that some books are read and passed on or put on the shelf, never to be picked up again ... and yet we keep "revisiting" others time and time again over the years? I've read all of the HPs more than twice each, and I've read bits and pieces of all of them 5-10 times. I've reread a lot of other books in my lifetime, too, especially my Jane Austen novels. Why are we called back to some books again and again? Interesting question ...

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Soul Search - Jun 23, 2009 11:54 am (#349 of 367)

"It also depends on the series. Many "series" are mostly just connected by having the same characters, but don't have a lot of series-long threads." (wynnleaf)

I have noticed that too. I think many series "happen" as a response to a successful novel and are not planned, or even expected. Sometimes I have encountered an author after a fair number of his series books have been published. I will often read them in a rush which makes the lack of planning more obvious.

I think JKR must be unique not only in planning a seven novel series, but in doing so for her first literary effort (other than the rabbit story.) Makes her efforts even more spectacular.

"Why are we called back to some books again and again?" (Solitaire)

I very much have the same experience with books and authors. I think the books and authors I reread are because they have characters I like to spend time with and places I like to visit. Plots are, of course, important, but less so after the first read. It is the characters and locale that make the book re-readable.

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Solitaire - Jun 23, 2009 12:41 pm (#350 of 367)

It is the characters and locale that make the book re-readable.

I think you're right. I would enjoy reading about Lizzy and Darcy in any situations ... and I actually have done so. I bought Presumption, a P&P fanfic written by Julia Barrett back in the early 90s, and loved it. Yes, it was easier to guess what would happen than in the originals ... but it was still fun!

I have even learned to like some HP fanfics to which freshwater introduced me a week or so ago. To be sure, Snape is far too sweet ... but that makes it even more fun!

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What Connections Can You Now Make After Re-Reading (Post 351 to 367)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:44 am

wynnleaf - Jun 23, 2009 1:53 pm (#351 of 367)
Don't you think this is true of most books that capture your imagination? I mean, why is it that some books are read and passed on or put on the shelf, never to be picked up again ... and yet we keep "revisiting" others time and time again over the years? (Solitaire)

Yes, of course, I'd expect a reader to pick up more things in rereads of a very good book. In this case, I'm particularly talking about connections that, in a series, are impossible to see until you've read the whole series -- or at least far enough along to catch what the connection is.

In Dunnett's books that I mentioned, there are ongoing questions that don't get completely answered until the final book, but as the reader rereads the series he/she understands many character motivations that can't be understood completely until those answers are known.

I totally agree about characters and locations making many books worth reading. In HP, it's the main interest for me. But the connections that I see after re-reads -- the one's that I really love -- are the ones that involve characters and their motivations, actions or reactions.

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Soul Search - Jun 23, 2009 2:31 pm (#352 of 367)

"... are the ones that involve characters and their motivations, actions or reactions." (wynnleaf)

I agree with everything in your last post (but don't know Dunnett.)

The best HP example of the part I quoted is, of course, Snape. After my second read of Deathly Hallows, I immediately started a series re-read, mostly skimming until I came to Snape parts. Most every Snape scene took on a different character after reading "The Prince's Tale."

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Julia H. - Jun 23, 2009 4:00 pm (#353 of 367)

Interesting discussion about re-reads and connections. Yes, some books are enjoyable many times, others are not. I had a teacher in school who taught us that a real work of art (not only literature) can be recognized by the simple fact that it is possible to discover something new in it every time one reads/watches/listens to it, no matter how many times.

Regarding the author's intentions, I am thinking of a very interesting quote by Umberto Eco, which I seem to connect to The Name of the Rose, but the book is not with me and I don't want to paraphrase it (I don't think I could do it very well). Anyway, it is about the autonomy of a story, i.e. that an author can't do just anything with a story because any given circumstance that the author chooses demands other circumstances and they cannot be ignored ... something about this.

I can't really imagine James being interested in an old potions book. (Solitaire)

I did not mean he was interested. I could imagine a scenario similar to the one in which Malfoy accidentally gets hold of Riddle's diary, thinks it is Potter's and taunts him by saying he is going to read it before giving it back to him. (Snape's book is full of notes after all, and once it gets obvious that he does not want others to read the notes, it can become quite "exciting".) Or someone hiding someone else's book before the lesson so that he does not have a book when he needs it in class. BTW, it does not need to be James who does any of these. And I'm not saying this is what happened, only that (because we are not given any details) there are different possible scenarios. Yours is perfectly plausible as well.

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Solitaire - Jun 23, 2009 4:38 pm (#354 of 367)

I could imagine a scenario similar to the one in which Malfoy accidentally gets hold of Riddle's diary

You need to read one of the fanfics I've read recently! Draco does find the diary in it! I don't know ... James taking Snape's old book just doesn't feel right to me. Do you think it is possible that Lily gave James any information, even unintentionally? She and Snape were friends and might well have been partners in Potions class. As such, she might well have seen some of the notes and spells jotted in the book and either asked about them or tried them. If she had, James would certainly have learned about it, as he seemed to watch her pretty closely.

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Julia H. - Jun 23, 2009 5:12 pm (#355 of 367)

Do you think it is possible that Lily gave James any information, even unintentionally?

Hm... why not?

LOL, we could come up with lots of possibilities together!

(Just one more: A student did not bring their potions book to class and Slughorn told Snape to share his book with that student, who was then more interested in the non-potions-related notes than in the instructions.)

I see all these posts about those mysterious fanfics, and I'm nearly bursting with curiosity now. Where are they?

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Solitaire - Jun 23, 2009 5:18 pm (#356 of 367)

Julia, I'll email them to you.

Edit: Julia, check your email!!
Edit 2: I forgot to add the address of HestiaA1's stories. I sent you a second email.

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Julia H. - Jun 23, 2009 5:22 pm (#357 of 367)

Thanks!

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freshwater - Jun 23, 2009 9:41 pm (#358 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Solitaire, did you get my first e-mail (yesterday) with the specific fanfic recommendations?

For those of you who are still hungry for HP reading, I'd recommend checking out the Potter Fic Weekly site...their motto is "Welcome to the place where the story never ends." It was started about two years ago as the founder, Ryan, anticipated the end of canon and hoped to promote HP fanfic reading and discussion. They have a forum, but mainly they publish podcasts where they have a panel discussion of previously read HP fanfic. If you want to find some of the best HP fanfic writing out there --and skip the junk and the less-than-quality-writing-- you could do worse than to check out the list of fics they've discussed in the last two seasons, and the list of fics for the coming season (links to the fics are provided on the site).

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mona amon - Jun 24, 2009 2:43 am (#359 of 367)

Why are we called back to some books again and again? Interesting question ... (Soli)

Because we love them so much we don't want to let go? Because we want to find out more and more about the characters, revisit beautifully written passages and try to uncover all the layers of meaning?

James taking Snape's old book just doesn't feel right to me. Do you think it is possible that Lily gave James any information, even unintentionally?

I've always imagined that the Gryffindors learnt it from Lily. No other scenario seems likely when we remember that the spell was non-verbal, so even if a slytherin who learnt it from Severus casts it on a Gryffindor, they (the Gryffindors) could not have learnt it that way. And we know that the Marauders did not have any idea that Severus was the inventor of the spell, so it couldn't have been learned by James when spying on Severus from under the invisibility cloak.

IMO, Levicorpus was not an evil or dark spell. It has a sort of 'Fred and George-ish air' of mischief about it and almost sounds like something James himself might have invented if he had the talent. The same can be said about most of the Half-Blood Prince's spells (with the exception of Sectumsempra) - Langlock, Muffliato, and the toenail growing hex.

Do these spells reveal a lighter, more misceivous side of Severus, which may have appealed to Lily? Perhaps he taught Lily Levicorpus, and she taught it to some Gryffindor friends, and that's how it spread around to the non-slytherin section of the school.

To be sure, Snape is far too sweet ... (Soli)

One of the reasons why I never read fanfic, LOL.

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wynnleaf - Jun 24, 2009 6:20 am (#360 of 367)

One of the particularly interesting things that can be done in well-written fan fic is to explore what characters would do in different circumstances from the HP plot. The challenge (in my opinion), is to keep the character's personalities as close to canon as possible, but then introduce some new circumstance and see what happens. Such writing can bring out very interesting questions about characters and I sometimes think really good fan fic writers can delve into aspects of the characters which one can then reflect back on actual canon and find even more interesting views.

For instance, I've noticed that many fan fic writers find it difficult to write a Dumbledore that is very close to his canon character. People tend to either make him too nice, too grandfatherly and twinkling, or they make him so manipulative and out for the "greater good" that he comes across as uncaring on a personal level. A writer will come up with some circumstance for Harry (for instance) and then have to address how DD would react, given what we know of how DD acted in canon, and it can be very hard to come up with something that really feels like the way JKR's Dumbledore would react. But in struggling to answer "what would DD do?" good writers can get me thinking about aspects of DD's canon character that I hadn't previously considered.

Same goes for many other characters as well. So I find that reading well written fan fic can help me think through canon in a different light.

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Solitaire - Jun 24, 2009 6:53 am (#361 of 367)

People tend to either make him too nice, too grandfatherly and twinkling, or they make him so manipulative and out for the "greater good" that he comes across as uncaring on a personal level.

You're certainly right about that in some of the fanfics I've recently read. Dumbledore is portrayed as rather incompetent and, in some cases, uncaring. I just kind of have to put my feelings about that portrayal aside and remember that it is fanfic and not canon.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 6, 2009 6:01 pm (#362 of 367)

I dabbled very briefly in reading fanfics, then quickly jumped away from it upon encountering 'Soccer Mom' Snape (Snape in jeans, sneakers, a T-shirt, washed hair pulled back in a masculine ponytail, sparkling white teeth bared in a friendly smile, driving a minivan). ***shudders***

As for the Snapilogue, I will dust it off and fix it up this month. It's become a bit of a running joke by now.

"Do these spells reveal a lighter, more misceivous side of Severus, which may have appealed to Lily?" -mona amon

Yes! And it appeals to Harry as well. Through his potions notes, we get a glimpse of Severus the teenager. He was a pretty funny, though private, guy before he became a serious Death Nibbler.

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Orion - Sep 7, 2009 6:43 am (#363 of 367)

Had he had a twin he would have had the chance to become a Weasley sort of twin because if you are two of a kind it's kind of easier to stand up to your surroundings. Pesky what you describe is the exact reason why I run as fast as I can when confronted with fanfic. It makes my hair stand on end!

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mona amon - Sep 7, 2009 7:20 am (#364 of 367)

LOL @ Soccer Mom Snape!

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freshwater - Sep 7, 2009 12:03 pm (#365 of 367)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
As an avid reader of HP fanfiction I have to.....agree,somewhat. There'a a LOT of drivel and tripe out there. But there are also quite a few excellent stories with high-quality writing (speaking as a fan of Jane Austen, Micheal Perry and Thomas Hardy)....I don't waste my reading time on poor writing.

So, without getting too, too off-topic here let me say that, if you are at all interested in checking out some high quality HP fanfic, please e-mail me and I'll forward a list of my favorites.

And just to whet your appetite...here is my all time favorite "one-shot": "How It's Going to Be" by Lady Tory on simplyundeniable.com....this is the way the Harry and Ginny should have gotten together in canon.

If you want humor, I can give you links to "The Naked Quidditch Match"...very "out of character" but so outrageously funny that you won't care!.....and "Harry's New Home" where Snape learns of Harry's abuse by the Dursleys and somehow becomes his protector, leading to his going on a double-date with Sirius, and you won't BELIEVE how Minerva deals with Umbridge after the blood-quill incident! Even Snape was impressed. This fic is canon-based but highly tweaked: LV might be a goner by the end of Harry's 2nd year. Both fics are guaranteed to be LOL funny or your galleons will be refunded with interest.

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legolas returns - Sep 7, 2009 1:00 pm (#366 of 367)

I agree that Harry and Ron getting together is so much better in that Fan-fic than in the book.

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Solitaire - Sep 7, 2009 6:34 pm (#367 of 367)

LOL @ Minerva and "the toad." hehe

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