Who Knows that Lord Voldemort is Really Tom Riddle?

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Who Knows that Lord Voldemort is Really Tom Riddle?

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:55 am

Who Knows that Lord Voldemort is Really Tom Riddle

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

Kip Carter - Jul 28, 2005 2:27 am
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Edited Nov 17, 2005 2:47 pm

Clifton Goodwin suggested this thread with, "I am interested in starting a new thread in the Theories forum. The subject is Lord Voldemort's true identity as Tom Riddle. The subject is Lord Voldemort's true identity as Tom Riddle. Who knows that he is really Tom Riddle? Besides Harry and Dumbledore.... I guess Snape knows. When Harry told Bellatrix that Voldemort was a half blood, it seemed to get to her some. I think in book 7 that Harry and McGonagall (whom I expect to be a very important character in our final book) will try to spread the word about Tom Riddle, it's easy to figure out that Riddle isn't a pureblood wizard family and this will be an important reason why Harry will finally defeat the Dark Lord."

Being that this new thread will contain spoilers, it will remain in the Spoiler section until everything is moved.
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Who Knows that Lord Voldemort is Really Tom Riddle (Post 1 to 56)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:55 am

Riley the Happy Dude - Jul 28, 2005 1:51 am (#1 of 56)
In CoS, right after they escape from the CoS there is a scene in McGonagall's office with the Weasley parent's, Prof. McGonagall, Lockhart, Ron, Harry, and Dumbledore when Dumbledore tells them that LV is Tom Ridde, so at least they know.

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magicgirl - Jul 28, 2005 2:54 am (#2 of 56)

Hmmm I have always wondered how widely this is known. I suspect this is something that LV keeps from most of his followers.

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Cuivienen - Jul 28, 2005 7:30 am (#3 of 56)

Lucius Malfoy must also know, as he owned the diary -- and it was bought at Vauxhall Road, not somewhere a wizard might buy a diary.

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Saralinda Again - Jul 28, 2005 8:06 am (#4 of 56)

My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
I don't know -- this whole LV is a half-blood bit makes me very nervous.

Isn't JKR trying to make the point that it doesn't matter how much of one's background is Wizard and how much is Muggle -- that what matters is the choices you make, i.e., what you do with your abilities?

To trumpet the fact that LV is not a pureblood gets us (and Minerva and the Order) sucked right back into the notion that one's ancestry is of critical importance. I do not believe that JKR is taking us there. I mean -- I can see the DEs getting totally stewed about it, but I think it will weaken the Order to concern itself in any way with that stuff.

JM2K

ô¿ô

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 28, 2005 8:20 am (#5 of 56)

Saralinda, I am inclined to agree. The only person against whom such knowledge could be successfully used is someone like Bella and the only purpose it would serve is to put her into state where she is so enraged that she loses what little caution she has left after her dentention in Azkaban and ends up doing something so rash that ends up captured or dead.

I also, agree that the offensive use of the information would weaken the cause of the Order and be a serious detriment to their work. Also, I think that if Dumbledore is alive he would be furious with the use of such tactics.

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mike miller - Jul 28, 2005 12:55 pm (#6 of 56)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
I think that many of the original DE's knew that Tom Riddle became Voldemort. Based on Slughorn's memory, several future (if not already) DE's were present with Tom while he was still at Hogwarts.

The question becomes did Tom Riddle attempt to cover-up his hal-blood status, or more likely, simply leverage his Salazar Slytherin connection.

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bella - Jul 28, 2005 1:08 pm (#7 of 56)

I've always said there was an @ssh*le born every minute, but I think I need to revise that estimate upwards.
He likely didn't know his blood status starting out. Once he did find out it's unlikely he would spread around who his father was.

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Solitaire - Jul 28, 2005 1:44 pm (#8 of 56)

While it is possible that not all of the DEs know the parentage of Tom Riddle--other than his connection to Slytherin--I believe many among them know that Riddle is Voldemort. Down in the Chamber, Riddle takes Harry's wand, shows Harry the Tom Riddle / I Am Lord Voldemort anagram, and says the following: "You see? It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course."

In Chapter 13, The Secret Riddle, we learn that Tom initially thought it was his father who was a wizard. But as soon as he learned this was not true--that his father was a mere Muggle--he stopped using the Riddle name. Dumbledore tells Harry: "Firstly, I hope you noticed Riddle's reaction when I mentioned that another shared his first name, 'Tom'?" (That other was Tom the barman at the Leaky Cauldron.)

Dumbledore continues: "There he showed his contempt for anything that tied him to other people, anything that made him ordinary. Even then, he wished to be different, separate, notorious.l He shed his name, as you know, within a few short years of that conversation and created the mask of 'Lord Voldemort' behind which he has been hidden for so long."

So ... while the students who were at Hogwarts would probably know Voldemort and Riddle were the same person, it is possible that maybe newer converts might not have known. It does, however, make sense that DEs of Riddle's generation who were looking to recruit new followers (from Lucius Malfoy & Bella's generation?) would have made sure to do a bit of name-dropping about his connection to Salazar Slytherin. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

Edited by me for content

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Eamonn Keane - Jul 28, 2005 2:58 pm (#9 of 56)

Ginny knows too, and Slughorn.

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Susurro Notities - Jul 28, 2005 7:25 pm (#10 of 56)

Edited by Jul 28, 2005 7:25 pm
Forum members have eloquently discussed this at length. I cannot do justice to that lengthy and well informed discussion. Still, I would note that many important DEs were at the graveyard at the end of GoF and most certainly they could make the connection between the Muggle grave of Riddle and the significance it held for Voldemort.

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Robert Dierken - Jul 28, 2005 7:55 pm (#11 of 56)

Voldemort knows that Voldemort is Tom Riddle, obviously!

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constant vigilance - Jul 28, 2005 8:03 pm (#12 of 56)

art student
Edited Jul 28, 2005 8:35 pm
I am curious if any of you have thoughts about who else might know that Voldemort is Tom Riddle. The reason I am immensely interested in this is because Voldemort seems intent on murdering those people who know his past identity. Slughorn has been in hiding for a year. Voldemort calculated the murder of Dumbledore, who knew about the orphan Tom Riddle. Voldemort's father and grandparents were murdered.

This may not seem like a long enough list of those murdered, who knew Tom Riddle, but my point is that I believe Voldemort seeks to eradicate the existence of his common (shared names) identity. He wants the non-Death Eater public to believe he is the ultimate, most powerful wizard of all time. I believe, he doesn't want people to associate him with a common human---some one who may or may not insight such potent fear. Voldemort wants to be the greatest, so he seems to be obliterating anything might make him appear equal to any other wizard (or muggle).

By working through the list of people Voldemort might have murder, I can then brew on the thought of at who's murder did Voldemort ceremoniously make another Horcrux.

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wombat witch - Jul 28, 2005 9:35 pm (#13 of 56)

I was slightly puzzled at first that Riddle's half-blood staus wasn't a problem for a 'racist/bloodist' DEs, but when Bella reacted to the news when Harry told her in OotP I realised that maybe none of them knew! There were many asumtions made about Harry when he first came to Hogwarts and there are still people who are surprised how miserable his home-life was, because he didn't like to discuss it, do you think that Riddle would have gone around telling everyone his father was a muggle? Even his closest friends at Hogwards - the inaugural DEs - might not have known about his immediate family, just that he was the Heir of Slytherin... and I think that he must have kept that pretty close to his belt to avoid Dumbledore finding out conclusively, at the time.

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popkin - Jul 28, 2005 11:04 pm (#14 of 56)

mother
I am reasonably certain that Hagrid knows Tom Riddle is Lord Voldemort, from comments he made in the first two books.

Judging from Bella's reaction, I would guess that most of the death eaters are unaware that Voldemort is a half-blood. Most of them probably don't know that Snape is either. It could be common for Slytherin House occupants to hide their muggle ancestry.

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The Sword and the Lion - Jul 29, 2005 1:03 am (#15 of 56)

Does Lord Voldemort really care about blood-status? It seems to me that his only concern in life is pursuing the road down immortality. Let's face it: Tom isn't even a half-blood wizard. His mother, Merope, was a squib. Furthermore, Tom murdered Morfin, the last pure-blooded descendant of Slytherin. Voldemort loathed his squib mother for dying in child-birth and we know that he hated his "dirt-vained" father.

I'm sure that having some of the powers that Slytherin valued is a great recruiting tool, but it seems apparent that Lord Voldemort is using his servants for his own gain. Voldemort's ranks are full of half-bloods and individuals who do not come from Slytherin's house (worm-tail, etc.).

If Slytherin were alive, what would he think of Lord Voldemort? However, the quote that Tom Riddle says in the Chamber of Secrets is disturbing: I am going to continue Salazar Slytherin's noble work -- does that mean "purifying" the wizarding-world or chasing immortality?

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spinowner - Jul 29, 2005 5:50 am (#16 of 56)

I'm pretty sure Merope was not a squib. I don't remember the passages in the book verbatim, but I think the squib reference was just an insult Marvolo used. I think the book also said that she used magic to catalyze her relationship with the elder Tom Riddle.

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constant vigilance - Jul 29, 2005 7:37 am (#17 of 56)

art student
I do not believe Merope was a squib. To me, she was a poor witch while in the presence of her father. Her inability to perform magic is reminiscent of Neville---both were taunted as children to prove their (not very exposed) magical talents, and both did better when they weren't under pressure from relatives. Plus, Merope did place a love spell/potion on Senior Tom Riddle, which she later removed in the hopes that Tom would still love her. When Tom abandoned her, she suppressed her magical abilities.

Also, Tom Riddle/Voldemort did not actually murder Morfin--he left him alive so Morfin could take the blame for the murder of Tom's Muggle relations. But I think Tom viewed Morfin as a liability, and that might be part of the reason he modified his memory (aside from the obvious convenience that it allowed Morfin to confess to murders he hadn't committed).

Tom didn't want Morfin to really be aware of his existence, because 1) Morfin was a reminder to Tom of his 'filthy Muggle ancestry' and 2) Tom did not like the idea of having living relations. He wanted to be the only living descendant of Slytherin, and he wanted to remain alone and unique in the world. Getting rid of Morfin, and therefore having no family, gave Tom one more degree of separation from the common and the ordinary.

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Susurro Notities - Jul 29, 2005 9:24 am (#18 of 56)

Wormtail and Harry know. Voldemort tells them in the graveyard in GoF (p. 646, US hardcover.

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 29, 2005 11:09 am (#19 of 56)

Voldemort murdered his father and grandparents, but not because they knew he was Tom Marvolo Riddle. In fact, they knew nothing about him...

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Ann - Jul 29, 2005 12:42 pm (#20 of 56)

Just an observation: There are three questions here. Who knows that Voldemort is the Tom Riddle who attended Hogwarts in the 1940s? Dumbledore says in CoS that not many people remember this, but I don't think it's a huge secret. Second, who knows that he is the son of another Tom Riddle? Well, he essentially tells his DEs this in the graveyard scene at the end of GoF. Who knows that Tom Riddle, Sr., was a Muggle? Very, very few, I suspect: Dumbledore, Harry & friends, and (apparently) Lucius Malfoy. That may be it.

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Susurro Notities - Jul 29, 2005 1:44 pm (#21 of 56)

Edited by Jul 29, 2005 1:46 pm
Ann,

You will note in GoF that Voldemort does not tell the DEs that Riddle is his father. The speech is made in front of Wormtail and Harry only. The DEs do not arrive until the Riddle portion of Voldemort's speech is done.

I would think that the DEs would be able to guess at Tom Riddle Senior's identity and further surmise that Voldemort is a half blood because:

1. At least some of them know he began as Tom Riddle.

2. They are standing in a Muggle graveyard.

3. The pure-blooded DEs would know that Riddle is not a pure-blood name. (In prejudice pureblood families schooling in who the pure-blood families are would be essential to keep children from becoming involved with the wrong sort.)

Why would Dumbledore who knew the Riddle/Voldemort connection keep that a secret. It would seem that would have been good information to get out during the first go round with Voldemort. Although Voldemort's Slytherin heritage might be enough to keep the pure-bloods on his side.

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constant vigilance - Jul 29, 2005 4:33 pm (#22 of 56)

art student
Are we positive that the Death Eaters even know Tom Riddle/Voldemort is a direct descendant of Salazar Slytherin? Tom Riddle never took credit for opening the Chamber of Secrets while he was at school, as that would have gotten him expelled. For 50 years, the magical community believed that it was Hagrid who opened the Chamber. So when Hagrid's name was cleared, how much of the truth became public knowledge? Was it front page, headline news, or did he get just a minor blurb a few pages into the Daily Prophet?

There is no doubt that everyone agrees Voldemort is mighty powerful, and we know that many (most?) of the Death Eaters were in Slytherin House. But to me, this does not automatically indicate that they know who their almighty leader is in relation to the House they attended.

Voldemort has hyped himself up---and demonstrated his ruthlessness---to the point that people are too afraid of him to look into his past. They won't even speak his name, let alone ask questions about who he was before he became so powerful. His relation to Salazar Slytherin is something he holds dear, because it gives him that sense of superiority, but I'm not sure that it's a flag he needs to wave for the rest of the world because he is flying so much higher than them without it.

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Susurro Notities - Jul 29, 2005 7:35 pm (#23 of 56)

Certainly Voldemort did not inform others of his half-blood status. But he may have built his reputation among the DEs as a relative of Slytherin. Once the reputation is built he needs only to capitalize on his ruthlessness for others to choose a side.

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Leia Tyndall - Jul 29, 2005 11:16 pm (#24 of 56)

I've said once before that it seems likely Ollivander may have figured out Voldesnort's (hehe) true identity. As the seller of the wand, it's likely that during the first war some description/picture of Voldy & his wand made it back to Ollivander. Seeing Voldy holding the same wand that was sold to Tom would've been a pretty big giveaway to Ollivander. Anyhow, it seems I wasn't the only one to think along those lines. After I posted my idea (a couple months ago), I found someone else (don't recall who) had said basically the same thing before I did. hmm, I bet someone's even called him "Voldesnort" before me....*musing* :}

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Ana Cis - Jul 30, 2005 8:20 am (#25 of 56)

Zen: After the Ecstasy, the laundry.
Edited by Jul 30, 2005 8:45 am

We know that Dumbledore knows LV is a half-blood (ref. in GOF, OP, and HBP)
Wormtail knows it too, although the rest of the DE’s don’t until Harry tells in the Hall of Prophecy In OP. I believe this may become a significant event in Book 7 based on what DD told Harry about Pettigrew being in his debt (ref. below).
In GOF33 (U.S. Ed.), Voldermort explicitly tells Harry, in front of Wormtail, “…upon the remains of my late father…A Muggle and fool…very like your dear mother.”
In PA22 (U.S. Ed) Dumbledore explains to Harry, “Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldermort a deputy who is in your debt…. When one wizard saves another wizard’s life, it creates a certain bond between them…. This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry… the time will come when you will be glad you saved Pettigrew’s life.”
In OP35, in the Hall of Prophecy, Harry and his closest DA friends—Ron, Hermione, Genny, Neville, and Luna, are surrounded by the 12 Death Eaters (incl. Bellatrix and Lucius). All 15 heard Harry say the Voldermort is a half-blood,
“Did you kow he’s a half-blood too?”… Hermione gave a little moan in his ear, “Voldermort? Yeah, his mother was a witch but his dad was Muggle—or has he been telling you lot he’s pure blood?”
Now his friends believe him, but except for Bellatrix, we don’t know if rest of the DE’s believe him or not. However, it remains in their subconscious which may come to light in Book 7.
One more point, in SS8, in Snape’s introduction about potions, he states that there are potions that can bewitch the mind and capture the senses (ref. below). It may be that Voldermort has bewitched the DE’s in some way that won’t allow them to question his lineage.
“Snape had the gift of keeping a class silent without effort.”As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death...”
Oh, one very last thing Smile, I suspect that since Dumbledore trusted Snape implicitly, he may have told him about Voldermort being a half-blood. Therefore we can say that at least 20 people know this, and speculate that folks in the Order of the Pheonix may have been told.
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constant vigilance - Jul 30, 2005 12:52 pm (#26 of 56)

art student
Leia, I also believe that Ollivander knows that Tom is Voldemort. In PS upon meeting Harry and noticing the scar, Ollivander says: "I'm sorry to say I sold the wand that did it," he said softly. "Thirteen-and-a-half inches. Yew. Powerful wand, very powerful, and in the wrong hands...well, if I'd known what that wand was going out in the world to do...."

Unless Riddle did not buy this wand before his transformation into Voldemort, which I don't believe, Ollivander knows voldemort's former identity. I imagine that Voldemort might have kidnapped Ollivander because he wants to know what caused the Priori Incantem, or something to that effect.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 1, 2005 7:20 am (#27 of 56)

In HBP US p. 442 "They do not call me 'Tom' any more," he said "These days I am known as --" I think Voldemort set out to eradicate Tom M. Riddle. He was able to suggest, bully, coerce people into calling him Voldemort. Dumbledore refused. I think this is important as to why Voldemort actually feared Dumbledore. Like most bully's when they find someone who will not be bullied they are afraid of them.

People who knew Tom and paid attention would probably know the connection. One thing I think it great Tom/Voldemort wanted to teach at Hogwarts, he could not. But the "stupid oaf" Hagrid is now a teacher there! LPO

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Paulus Maximus - Aug 1, 2005 10:32 am (#28 of 56)

I wonder... will the jinx that Voldemort put on the DADA job lift when he dies? I know some spells are broken when the one who cast them is dead (or at least, Harry thinks so...) but some don't, like the enchantments on the Sorting Hat.

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Archangel - Aug 6, 2005 1:52 pm (#29 of 56)

Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- Semisonic
Dumbledore mentioned in The Cave chapter that magic can sometimes leave distinct traces and he, having taught, Voldemort recognized his "style". Ollivander, being the wand maker, would surely recognize it. I also think that Voldemort's old teachers (or at least the ones he associated the most) would have known that he is Tom Riddle, one of the finest students Hogwarts produced. However, I doubt if most of them would make this knowledge public for fear of death. Some of them might even hold their selves responsible for how he turned out; Slughorn and Dumbledore, to some extent, do.

His ancestry would be harder to figure out since he never spoke of it. Even Slughorn, through his Horcrux memory, seem to think that Riddle comes from a "decent Wizarding stock". I'm wondering whether anyone in school, aside from Dumbledore and Dippet, knew that Riddle was raised in a Muggle orphanage.

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Homorphous - Aug 12, 2005 1:06 am (#30 of 56)

Continuing with the theory that Voldemort wishes to eradicate non-supporters who have knowledge that he orginated as Tom Riddle, is this why he personally wanted to kill Amelia Bones? Was she too powerful and likely to use the knowledge of his identity as head of Magical Law Enforcement?

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HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 22, 2005 9:50 am (#31 of 56)

The heart sees deeper than the eye.
Paulus, "People who were on his side came back ter ours. Some of 'em came outta kinda trances. Don' reckon they could've done if he was comin' back." SS, Scholastic ed. Pg. 57, soft cover.

Also, Harry was no longer immobilized after DD was killed. I would venture to guess that when Big V dies, the curse will be lifted, the sun will come out and the flowers will grow.

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Snuffles - Aug 22, 2005 1:31 pm (#32 of 56)

Olivia
........The birds will be singing and Delorus Umbridge will twirl into Hogwarts grounds showering everyone with rose petals!!!

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Herm oh ninny - Aug 22, 2005 2:16 pm (#33 of 56)

"Accio treats!"


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timrew - Aug 22, 2005 2:56 pm (#34 of 56)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Snuffles:- The birds will be singing and Delorus Umbridge will twirl into Hogwarts grounds showering everyone with rose petals!!!

Not scantily clad!!!! Anything but that!!!!

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Hogs Head - Aug 22, 2005 5:08 pm (#35 of 56)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
To shake off the scary image advanced by timrew, I have a disjointed set of questions on the general Tom Riddle theme, but mainly focusing for a moment on Tom Riddle, Sr.

While Tom Riddle, Jr. was still a young student, as in years 1 through 5 -- before he killed Tom, Sr. and his grandparents -- was Dumbledore already suspicious and watchful of young Tom, Jr.? If so, did Dumbledore do anything to research who Tom, Jr.'s father might have been? Might he even have met or observed Tom, Sr. while the latter was still alive?

Since Dumbledore is shown several times to follow stray and unsolved Muggle murders (like that of Frank Bryce), did DD have an early idea that Tom, Jr. may have murdered his father and grandparents? When the headline read "Riddles and Son Tom Found Murdered," wouldn't the few who knew Tom Riddle, Jr. have had some misgivings or suspicions?

The fact that the murders were blamed on another (Morfin Gaunt) -- did that really fool Dumbledore? We see (in the Book 6 Pensieve) the fruits of Dumbledore's later investigation. But is there a chance that Dumbledore's investigation started even earlier, that he had other info on Tom, Sr. or has (or had) other proof of Tom, Jr.'s involvement in the murders stored away? One might guess that, when Dumbledore saw the reports of the murders in Little Hangelton of folks named Riddle in a house right around the corner from that of the Gaunts, the pieces might start to fall into place even then?

Or did the Riddle - Riddle connection simply not click for Dumbledore until years after the murders? Perhaps in or around 1945, DD was just too busy with Grindelwald to make the connection?

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haymoni - Aug 23, 2005 6:22 am (#36 of 56)

I think on the surface the Morfin-Killed-The-Riddles story was easily believed. A pure-blood kills a Muggle & his family, especially if the Muggle had abandoned the pure-blood's sister.

I think it wasn't until Dumbledore started thinking about Voldy's future plans that he started to investigate what made Tom Riddle tick.

He was able to get the memory about Tom & Morfin. Without that, he just may have believed as everyone else did. He may have wondered about the coincidence but might not have questioned it until later.

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Hogs Head - Aug 23, 2005 10:50 am (#37 of 56)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
I do not think that Dumbledore did believe Morfin to be the murderer, or at least not wholeheartedly. Even if he did at the time, the news accounts of the murders of the Riddles and Tom Riddle specifically would at least have rung other bells with Dumbledore -- like, "Could these folks be related to the very odd student I've been concerned about for all these years?" and "Could there be some connection between the Gault / Slytherin alleged murderer and the Riddle victims," particularly since strange Tom, Jr. was a Slytherin.

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Herm oh ninny - Aug 23, 2005 11:31 am (#38 of 56)

"Accio treats!"
Not scantily clad!!!! Anything but that!!!! - Timrew

Ewwwwwww!! I am now having images of Umbridge in an outfit a la Moulan Rouge!!

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Dame Peverell - Aug 26, 2005 5:59 am (#39 of 56)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...
Hrumph..

After Rita Skeeter's supposed in-depth interview with Harry about the events in the Riddle graveyard, who doesn't know Tom Riddle is Lord Voldemort?

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Ann - Aug 26, 2005 6:30 am (#40 of 56)

Dame Peverell, I think you're likely right; lots of people probably know that Voldemort was Tom Riddle after the interview, assuming that Skeeter gave the name on the gravestone--although it's conceivable that she left it out, out of fear that such a relevation would put her on Voldie's hit list. (When was she in school, I wonder?) If she did mention it, I can just see dozens of Hogwarts alumni of that era sitting at the breakfast table telling their wives: "Well, wha'd'ya know. You-Know-Who turns out to be old Tom Riddle. Always said Dippet should have made me Head Boy and not him!"

On the other hand, I think the reaction of the Death Eaters to Harry's remark about Voldemort being a half-blood in the Ministry suggests that she didn't point out that his father was actually a Muggle. I mean, it wasn't completely obvious. He didn't identify his father as a Muggle after the DEs arrived. And I don't think there would be anything distinctly non-wizardly about the grave, and I've always assumed that there are no (or few) separate wizard's cemeteries. Just as Hogsmead is the only purely wizarding village in Britain, and everyone else lives scattered among the Muggle population, I assume their burials are integrated as well. And I don't think the name itself would be as revealing as most people seem to believe.

It would be weird if the Ministry investigation didn't turn up the marriage, though, and the fact that there's a 6th year Slytherin prefect with the same name at Hogwarts should have given them pause. I bet if Voldemort was questioned about it, he'd be able to slither his way out of it, though.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 26, 2005 3:40 pm (#41 of 56)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...
At the time of the battle at the MoM the article had only appeared in the Quibbler magazine which was not widely read or taken very seriously by most people - although Dolores Umbridge made sure that everyone at Hogwarts read it.

Just as food for thought, I'm beginning to suspect LV's stance on the notion of "Pureblood Superiority" Couldn't this now really be just a ploy to hold the support and financial backing of the wealthy and influential Pureblood families?

Maybe he started out thinking he himself was a Pureblood and so loudly complained about Mudbloods etc., but, having discovered his dad was a Muggle, secretly began to doubt the veracity of the notion? I mean, he surely thinks of himself as "special" and he picked Harry over Neville. There are now so few left that soon he won't have any Pureblood followers.

I will be the first to admit, however, that it flies in the face of the philosophies of Salizar Slytherin.

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David Olson - Aug 29, 2005 2:53 pm (#42 of 56)

I think you're right, Dame Peverell. Voldemort is clearly using the Pureblood obsessed for his own ends.

I've wondered if "inbreeding" gradually reduces magical power. When Merope had a child by a Muggle, he turned out to be incredibly powerful. I thought I read hints toward that idea, but I didn't pay that much attention to it.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 30, 2005 2:11 am (#43 of 56)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...
Please, call me Dame.

The Pureblood Weasleys, especially F&G, seem OK although Molly did have that cousin...
If you look at the Lexicon list of Pureblood families, who we are also told are very rare, only a few individuals are left. Aside from those that are in Azkaban, there is Bellatrix, her husband Rodolphus and his brother Rabastan, Narcissa, and Draco. Crabbe and Goyle aren't on the Lexicon list and there are some others who probably should be. Plus the Weasleys and the Longbottoms. That is a MIGHTY SHORT LIST. And LV has been sacrificing these (pieces) on missions right and left. It looks like his plan is to come out of the closet and have the majority on his side instead of the Pureblood few who will soon be virtually powerless anyway. He must think that people will accept him then as their ruler.

Why wouldn't Harry have noted the significance of the Riddle Graveyard to Rita? Those events were what the story she wrote was all about. That LV used the bone of his father, a Muggle known as Tom Riddle, to create a new body for himself. Why wouldn't Rita report it in the Quibbler? No one said anything about the Prophet changing the story when they re-printed it, did they? By now everyone should know he isn't a Pureblood.

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Maddest Dragon - Sep 1, 2005 11:02 pm (#44 of 56)

I don't think Voldemort is terribly concerned with who knows his name was once Tom Riddle... I think he wants to eliminate everyone who knew Tom Riddle for who he was, before he became powerful. That would mean Dumbledore, and Slughorn, and anyone else who remembers Tom Riddle as merely human. Those DE's who were his "friends" at school aren't a threat, because they've looked up to him all along. Hagrid might be (in any case, Hagrid's loyal to Dumbledore, and Harry, both of which would make him Voldemort's enemy right there).

Dumbledore is the only one Voldemort ever feared... I think that's because Dumbledore has never been afraid of Voldemort, never would even call him Voldemort, and always saw him as just Tom Riddle. Dumbledore, for Voldemort, is the teacher you could never lie to--even in their first encounter, DD found Tom's guilty secret: the stolen goods in the wardrobe.

Re pureblood families, the Weasleys aren't pure blood, because there are lots of Muggle borns (and therefore Muggles) in their family tree.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 2, 2005 2:47 am (#45 of 56)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...
Maddest Dragon- "Re pureblood families, the Weasleys aren't pure blood, because there are lots of Muggle borns (and therefore Muggles) in their family tree."

According to the Lexicon, the Weasleys are Pureblood. We have been discussing Pureblood a little on the Ginny Weasley thread. Could you bring the quote you are referring to about their family tree over there? Thanks.

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RoseMorninStar - Sep 2, 2005 2:52 am (#46 of 56)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
The Weasley's are a prominent pure-blood wizarding family. It's in the Lexicon. There may be some members who have married half-bloods or muggle-born, but Molly & Arthur (and all of their children) are pure-bloods.



Dame, I must have been writing my post at the same time you were! Very Happy

I don't think Voldemort cares who knows he was once 'Tom Riddle'. (He's like the singer/musician Prince...or formerly known as...who has changed his 'name/symbol' again.) But I do think he has been 'selective' in who knows his half-blood heritage. Bella Lestrange seemed outraged that someone would 'blaspheme' the descendant of Salazar Slytherin by insinuating Voldemort may be less than pure-blood. I can see all of those pure-blood bigots being outraged that their dark 'Lord' is a mere half-blood.
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Maddest Dragon - Sep 2, 2005 3:26 pm (#47 of 56)

I didn't mean to start a discussion on the definition of pureblood; that comment was an afterthought. I was going by what Sirius told Harry when they were looking at his family's tapestry in OoP: something about the Weasleys being "blood traitors" because too many of them (by the Blacks' standards) had married Muggle borns. To my line of thinking, that would make them not pure blood, the way Harry isn't pure blood because he had Muggle grandparents.

If Voldemort downplays his half-bloodedness, I think it's solely to keep the support of the pure bloods. I don't think he cares much about it in and of itself--his focus is on being what he can make himself, immortal and all powerful. He's not going after people because they might let it slip that Voldemort's name was once Tom Riddle, or that Tom Riddle is a half blood; he wants to eliminate anyone who could look at him and still see Tom Riddle, not Voldemort. That alone might be why Ollivander was taken, Dumbledore targeted, and Slughorn felt he should go into hiding.

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ex-FAHgeek - Oct 12, 2005 6:34 pm (#48 of 56)

Edited by Oct 12, 2005 6:39 pm
---quote--- I was going by what Sirius told Harry when they were looking at his family's tapestry in OoP: something about the Weasleys being "blood traitors" because too many of them (by the Blacks' standards) had married Muggle borns. ---end quote---

They were blood traitors because they supported the integration of Muggle-borns into wizarding society, not because the family tree was crawling with them. The Weasleys are pure-bloods (Dumbledore points this out to Lucius Malfoy at the end of CoS), although it seems that Percy and Ron may be about to change that coincidence (Penelope and Hermione being Muggle-borns and all.)

As for powerful Pure-bloods, off the top of my head Barty Crouch Sr. was noted as being extremely powerful, both magically and mentally (200 languages!!!), and Frank Longbottom had a reputation of being very talented. These would be the poster-children for those expousing the Pure-blood philosophy through their talent, fame, and successes (although they themselves had no particular dedication to "the cause.")

For a pair of examples who are still available for procreation purposes, it has been noted many times on these boards just how much potency Fred and George Weasley are packing in their minds and wands. Of course, they're part of a family of blood traitors, so they probably won't be attracting too many people who are dedicated to the philosophy...

Overall, the Pure-blood families in Britain of which we know (at least, as Pure-blood as they get)...

the Weasleys
the Prewetts (at least through Molly's intermediate family, if any of them are still alive)
the Longbottoms
the MacMillans
the Malfoys
the Notts
the Lestranges
the Crouches (extinct)
the Gaunts (extinct)
the Blacks (extinct)

Presumably, the Zabinis, Pettigrews, Parkinsons, Crabbes, Goyles, Rookwoods, etc. are also Pure-bloods or close enough that no one knows the difference, although they may just be quiet as to their actual heritages. Actually, one thing I'd like to know is, if Blaise's mother buys into the Pure-blood thing, where did she find seven available Pure-bloods to become her husbands? They're not exactly common.
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Liessie - Oct 12, 2005 7:13 pm (#49 of 56)

I'm not so sure about all those Slytherins, I think they may be keeping quiet, after all half-blood Snape is/was both a DE and a Slytherin. So you don't need to be pure-blood to be either. And wasn't Pettigrew Griffindor? You are definitely right about Zabini's mother though...! And who knows that Snape is a half-blood?

I agree with Maddest dragon's last paragraph, I don't think he cares too much either, but it is an easy battle-cry to get a big following and to create fear.

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haymoni - Oct 13, 2005 4:54 am (#50 of 56)

If her beauty is legendary, Blaise's mother could have married foreigners.

I'm just wondering about all those mysterious deaths and the gold!

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ex-FAHgeek - Oct 13, 2005 10:13 am (#51 of 56)

Edited by Oct 13, 2005 10:18 am
---quote--- And wasn't Pettigrew Griffindor? ---end quote---

So are the Weasleys and Neville, but they're Pure-bloods. It's not as though Gryffindor would ever consider excluding them from his house!

---quote--- I'm just wondering about all those mysterious deaths and the gold! ---end quote---

While I don't think we're ever going to find out in the books, I'm quite certain that the point is to make us wonder what secrets are floating around the rumor mill!

Anyway, back to the main topic... we know from Dumbledore in CoS that "very few" people actually know the connection between Lord Voldemort and Tom Riddle. I'd say it's fairly easy to justify - when he was at school, the name "Voldemort" was a secret known only to his closest friends. Later, he disappeared for some time... and then this mysterious Voldemort fellow showed up, and he never used the name Tom if he could help it (i.e. when talking to anyone but Dumbledore.)

I suppose the better question is, before the events of the books, who knew that Voldemort was really Tom Riddle? Many characters have learned this due to "on stage" events, but obviously it was not a secret being spread around during VWI.

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hawick girl - Oct 16, 2005 12:13 pm (#52 of 56)

I think that Bella was in Azkaban while the Rita Skeeter article was published. She may have no idea because she never read the article.

Dame Peverell states in #41

Just as food for thought, I'm beginning to suspect LV's stance on the notion of "Pureblood Superiority" Couldn't this now really be just a ploy to hold the support and financial backing of the wealthy and influential Pureblood families?

Maybe he started out thinking he himself was a Pureblood and so loudly complained about Mudbloods etc., but, having discovered his dad was a Muggle, secretly began to doubt the veracity of the notion? I mean, he surely thinks of himself as "special" and he picked Harry over Neville. There are now so few left that soon he won't have any Pureblood followers.

I think that using purebloodedness had mutiple reasons/results. It maybe a financial carrot, but I think that he really felt that they are better. Voldie says that he will do the 'noble work of Slytherin' and how 'in these veins run the blood of Slytherin himself (on his mother's side)'. I think that the statement of how Sltherin would feel if he knew what had happened to his own family si a good point.

On the second part, he knew that he was special even in the ophanage, and when he was told that he was a wizard, he thought that it was his father that was the wizard and that his mother must have been non-magical because she died. Voldie is full of contradictions. He claims to be into the power of plurebloods, but when he is given two choices half-blood and pure blood he chooses the half blood. It is not a choice of who he thinks is more special or perfect, It's about how he perceives the threat. The Prophesy says that he will be the one to vanquish Voldie. In his eyes, Harry is the more threatening one. I think that it is very insightful that he picks Harry, because he is a half blood as well and that although he professes this pure blood craziness, in his deepest subconscious he feels that the half blood could topple him. I would like to know Voldie's thoughts on/reasons why he picked Harry.

Could it be a matter of what the parents were doing? Like whatever James and Lily's jobs were, that was more threatening than being the Aurors that the Longbottoms were? We havn't found out what their jobs were yet. I think that is very interesting.

i'm just a reader Wink

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ex-FAHgeek - Oct 16, 2005 2:06 pm (#53 of 56)

---quote--- He claims to be into the power of plurebloods, but when he is given two choices half-blood and pure blood he chooses the half blood. It is not a choice of who he thinks is more special or perfect, It's about how he perceives the threat. ---end quote---

I wonder if he saw the pure-blood as a potential future minion, and that played a role into him going after Harry. He may have seen Neville as someone who could potentially be convinced of his own superiority (when put to good use in the Dark Lord's service, of course...)

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Maddest Dragon - Oct 16, 2005 3:09 pm (#54 of 56)

We've pretty well been told that Voldemort went after the Potters solely because of the prophecy about Harry (or that he'd decided was about Harry). And that the attack on the Longbottoms was about them, and information they were believed to have, not about Neville. I think JKR said so... does anyone know if that's correct?

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hawick girl - Oct 16, 2005 7:13 pm (#55 of 56)

pure blood minion like Barty Crouch Jr? perhaps??

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frogface - Oct 17, 2005 3:33 am (#56 of 56)

I think that, had LV suceeded in killing Harry, he would have gone on to track down the Longbottom's to kill Neville, just to be sure that there was no longer a danger. He went for Harry first because he saw Harry as a bigger threat. He wouldn't really need to carry on recruiting once these two were out the way because his path to power would be clear wouldn't it. I think that Neville, even now that its clear Harry has been marked, is still in a lot of danger.
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