Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape?

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:04 am

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape?

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

Kip Carter - Aug 1, 2005 2:35 pm
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Edited Nov 17, 2005 2:59 pm

loony suggested this thread with, "... why DD trusted Snape? I mean it can´t be just Snape feeling sorry that he said Voldemort about Prophecy, DD wouldn´t just belive it, would he? DD didn´t belive Tom Riddle became good, while in Hogwarts, so why should he now just trust Snape? I think there is more up to that Smile"



Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? thread index

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Last edited by Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:37 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:12 am

Kerrie-Louise - Jul 18, 2005 7:11 am (#1 of 530)
I really can't see Snape being so effected by James and Lilly's death that he suddenly comes over all emotional and wants to prove himself to DD. If this was the case isn't there the slightest chance he might have been nicer to Harry seeing as he so closely resembles them both?

- - - - - - - - - -
Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 18, 2005 7:47 am (#2 of 530)

I wonder if Dumbledore kept part of the tale back from Harry. Because, it seems to me that with something as serious a matter as trusting a former Death Eater I think Dumbledore would have needed more of an ironclad reason than the one given to Harry. I suspect there is more to this than at first glance and that it will come to light in Book 7. I also doubt that Snape was so proficient an Occulmens that neither Dumbledore or Voldemort could have penetrated into his mind.

- - - - - - - - - -
Gina R Snape - Jul 18, 2005 7:51 am (#3 of 530)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I am sure we don't know the whole story here. The explanation given was such a feeble one, it screams out for explanation. Snape rejoined their side before the Dark Lord's downfall, putting himself at great personal risk. We know the Dark Lord assigned Snape to Hogwarts, but we kinda knew that already... I think Snape regretted Lily's death, for sure. But I think there is a missing puzzle piece about what Snape did for or with Dumbledore to seal the deal of trust. Perhaps an unbreakable vow? Dumbledore was so resolute in his trust, and with steadfast refusal of explanation, that the end of the story (and Snape rising victoriously as a hero) is incumbent upon it.

- - - - - - - - - -
Nearly Legless Mick - Jul 18, 2005 8:03 am (#4 of 530)

One of the things that becomes clear over the course of this book is that Snape himself is a far more powerful wizard than we (or at least many of us) have previously given him credit for.

That's my interpretation anyway. I still tend to believe that Snape is still working for the Order under the deepest of covers, but I can't rule out that he can close his mind to anybody, including DD and LV.

That's why I was very surprised that Draco may have been able to prevent Snape doing Legilimency on him. (the Unbreakable Vow chapter)

There are hints in the earlier books that Remus may be a particularly gifted Legilimens - numerous mentions of him saying things "as if he had read ______'s mind", or just saying what someone else was thinking, finishing their sentences etc.

Perhaps he may be able to find out the truth about Snape.

I love these books but I do worry that some of the phenomena such as Imperius, Polyjuice, Legilimency / Occlumency and Time-turning, can make it impossible to know so many things for sure. It doesn't really spoil the books, but it can drive you insane trying to work out all the possibilities.

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 18, 2005 8:58 am (#5 of 530)

Snape is a conundrum, for sure. That's just another reason why I am having trouble with DDs death, it leaves us with no answers to many many questions. Unless of course, at some point Snape himself comes clean and fills us in on all those many things. Which could mean that he's really on the good side, afterall. I also thought he was a pitiful wizard, but apparently he does have some good qualities, in that department. JKR really left us hanging and wondering about these things. So aside from Harry's quest to hunt down and destroy the Horcruxes and LV, hopefully 7 will be brimming with all those answers.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Jul 18, 2005 9:54 am (#6 of 530)

I definitly think there is much more to why Dumbledore trusts Snape than what he told Harry.Dumbledore has not told Harry everything.I think he will continue to explain these things and teach Harry through his portrait(this is the only thing that comforts me about Dumbledore's death.)Also whether Dumbledore is dead or not.I think Snape's involvement was premeditated by Dumbledore and Snape-It was something they both knew was going to happen.

- - - - - - - - - -
Blaise Zabini - Jul 18, 2005 10:07 am (#7 of 530)

Dumbledore probably didn't tell Harry all of his reasons, because he probably didn't think Harry needed to know.

Although I am quite upset with Snape for killing Dumbledore, I think he still is against Voldemort.

I believe that Dumbledore and Snape made an Unbreakable Vow, or something similar, saying that they wanted to get as many people as possible to the side of the Order, regardless if there are one or two casualties made. Also, Dumbledore was probably trying to look out for his students, and for their safety before his.

What I mean is, I think Snape killed Dumbledore in order to save Draco, upon Dumbledore's wishes. Draco now may join to Order, and Draco's life was obviously important to Dumbledore because Draco was a student, and Draco showed signs of not wanting to kill Dumbledore.

Dumbledore obviously cared a lot about his students. He kept on saying "your blood is worth more than mine" to Harry, and rushed back to the school when the Dark Mark was there.

Also, I believe that Dumbledore could've killed Draco (as he claimed he would say to Draco's fellow Death Eaters if Draco joined the Order) with wandless magic.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ms Hagrid - Jul 18, 2005 10:09 am (#8 of 530)

There are two people so far in the series that Dumbledore has made explicit statements of trust about - Snape and Hagrid. That could be because those are the two people that don't seem very trustworthy (for different reasons) so they are the two people he would be frequently questioned about. But I'm still wondering if we understand the real reason for Dumbledore's trust even now.

I agree with Gina that the reason we've heard for Dumbledore trusting Snape seems so lame now that we've heard it that there must be something more, and an unbreakable vow might make sense now that we've learned there is such a thing.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 18, 2005 10:19 am (#9 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
In Spinner's End, Snape feeds Bellatrix with the same excuse that DD gave to Harry as to why DD trusts him : remorse. And it's believable for LV and the Death Eaters ! Do they really give so few credit to DD ? Even Harry believes it ! Only Remus has some very feeble objections, but because of Snape's abilities with occlumency, everyone takes it for granted. I have no doubt on my part that DD would have seen right away Snape's abilities with occlumency, and would have acted consequently. Even if DD always wants to see the best in people, he wouldn't have trusted Snape so entirely if he has had any doubt. Jo said in an interview that Snape has told his story to Dumbledore and that DD has believed him, but if his story is just remorse, I really find it hard to believe.

I'm not sure there was an Unbreakable Vow between DD and Snape, it would suppose the presence of a bonder, meaning a witness. I don't see one in the story.

BTW a question : Snape says in HBP (ch2) he has stayed for 16 years with DD. In OoTP, didn't he say he has been teaching in Hogwarts for 14 years ? Is there a mistake ?

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 18, 2005 10:27 am (#10 of 530)

Ms. Hagrid, Hagrid, to my knowledge was never a DE. It's quite different to believe Hagrid or Lupin are good.

I think I might have an answer to the question though posed to us in this thread, I hope I articulate it well though:

Tewlawney says that Snape was listening at the door and the door flew open and the barman was standing with him, etc.

My question is how did Snape not hear the whole prophecy?

You see, in DDs memory, we see the whole prophecy shown to Harry, thus, he must have heard the whole thing, before the door flew open to reveal Snape. If in fact DDs memory isn't altered, and there was no fuzzy white circling stuff in it, then we're to believe it's the whole thing and we've seen Trelawney in a trance before, she wouldn't have broken it to notice Snape at the door, it would have been after her revelation, thus she had said the whole thing, before the door opened.

So, perhaps the reason DD trusts Snape is because he purposely kept the 2nd half of the prophecy from LV.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 18, 2005 10:32 am (#11 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
I've posted some ideas like yours, very Sirius, although I don't remember which thread. Perhaps this encounter was the beginning of Snape/DD's relationship and betrayal of LV by Snape. Or at least his beginning as a double agent.

- - - - - - - - - -
Gina R Snape - Jul 18, 2005 10:43 am (#12 of 530)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Oooh, Very Sirius I like this idea a LOT!

On the other hand, it's possible she went into her trance as he was being carted away, and that's how he only heard part of the prophesy. After all, at the time Snape had no reason to keep half the prophesy from the Dark Lord unless he was already thinking of leaving his service (or harboured a secret desire to be crucio'd into giving the whole thing...).

- - - - - - - - - -
Weeny Owl - Jul 18, 2005 11:00 am (#13 of 530)

I'm not sure there was an Unbreakable Vow between DD and Snape, it would suppose the presence of a bonder, meaning a witness. I don't see one in the story.

Well, what about Aberforth? We know he's the barman, at least according to what she said at the Edinburgh Book Festival.

He would have been present when Snape interrupted Dumbledore and Trelawney. He would have known about the prophecy. He would have known Snape heard all or part of it. He's Dumbledore's brother.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ydnam96 - Jul 18, 2005 11:09 am (#14 of 530)

Upon my second reading of the book, with particular attention paid to Hagrid's explination of the argument he overheard between Professor Snape and DD and then the scene in which DD dies I can totally see that Snape had told DD about the unbreakable vow and Malfoy's mission. I do believe that I agree with those who have said Snape was under orders from DD to kill him before Malfoy could, to save Malfoy. It all adds up. Snape saying he didn't want to do it, DD demanding that he do (just like he did with Harry btw), and then DD pleading with Snape at the end. He was reminding/begging him to do what he had promised.

This puts Snape in a whole new light. Not only is he loyal to DD but he obviously has no regard as to what the other members of the Order will think of him...Unless DD comitted the whole plan to writing or memory which he left in the pensive for McGonagal to find. Then Snape will be forever known as the ultimate traitor even though he did what DD wanted. That is a huge sacrifice.

- - - - - - - - - -
Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 18, 2005 11:13 am (#15 of 530)

I agree I think that there may have been an unbreakable vow made between the Dumbledore brothers and Snape. Since, the memory shown to Harry was unaltered that it may have been possible that Snape heard the entire prophecy and that the Dumbledore brothers promised him protection for not revealing the second half of the prophecy. But, like with the vow taken with Bella and Narcissa that Dumbledore added a codcil.

Having said that I wonder whether Snape's Boggart is that Voldemort would break through his defenses and discover his treachery, the second half of the prophecy, and the unbrealable vow.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Jul 18, 2005 11:26 am (#16 of 530)

Mandy,I totally agree.that is what I was trying to say in my earlier post.I think that Dumbledore's death was prearranged with Snape.I'm still trying to decide if he is "properly dead."I also find it odd that McGonnagal seemed more upset by Snapes involvement than Dumbledore's death.I'm going to have to pay closer attention on my reread.

- - - - - - - - - -
Verbina - Jul 18, 2005 12:01 pm (#17 of 530)

Image by me. Base by Nefertiti at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I agree that there is something odd about Dumbledore's death and his unswerving trust of Snape. I realized that there was something really odd going on as soon as it was announced that Snape was the DADA teacher. Shocking to say the least. But it has set some thoughts swirling about in my head.

1) Dumbledore may have trusted Snape partially because of remorse but if I remember correctly, wasn't there a Life Debt owed by Snape to James? It is possible that that had something to do with the trust in Snape.

2) Snape did not tell anyone that Harry had his old book and was using it. Why?

There is much more going on really. Oh and that is very well spotted about the prophecy and Snape.

- - - - - - - - - -
Potions Mistress - Jul 18, 2005 12:03 pm (#18 of 530)

Politicians and diapers need to be changed for the same reason.--Anon.
Hi all! I've been away for awhile now, but have returned. First, I do believe DD is really and truly dead. However, there is still his portrait in the Headmaster's office. I do think we will see more of it in Book 7. Coming to Snape, I would hope there is more reason to the trust DD placed in him than remorse. I truly want to believe that Snape is on the side of good, and that he made a huge personal sacrafice by killing DD. However, having only read the book through once and not really looking for clues at the time, I worry that Snape is the ultimate traitor and that he is indeed working for LV. Looking at this from this distasteful perspective, we come back to the question: Why did DD trust Snape? If Snape learned occlumency from either DD or LV, I think he would have sufficient skill to fool DD into thinking he was remorseful, but like I've said (and many others, as well), remorse does not necessarily equal trust. How did Snape (supposedly?) put himself at great personal risk? Is this why DD trusted him? Unfortunately there are more questions than answers right now. If Snape did indeed kill DD for LV, I think there will be some sort of magical consequences for that (other than Harry wanting Snape's blood). But that might be a topic for another thread. Anyway, just my 2 knuts. It's good to "see" you all again!

~pm

- - - - - - - - - -
alisa - Jul 18, 2005 12:53 pm (#19 of 530)

I think DD and Snape had an unbreakable vow where Snape vowed to protect Harry and never reveal that he was good. I think DD intended Snape to be at the final confrontation between Voldemort and Harry, as Snape would be the only one who could match LV with occlumens, which is why he is the only spy for DD in the DE. Snape was revealed as a very powerful wizard in this book, and it follows that DD and Snape had been planning this all along. I think Snape has been purposly making Harry hate him, so that in this final confrontation Voldemort would not be able to know that Snape was good by getting that information from Harry. Also, I think that is why DD wanted Snape to give Harry occlumency lessons, not to actually help Harry close off his mind, but to see if Harry could hide important information, and they found out he couldn't, which meant that DD and Snape had to devise a plan in which Harry wouldn't know anything.

- - - - - - - - - -
The Wandless Wizard - Jul 18, 2005 1:10 pm (#20 of 530)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 18, 2005 1:10 pm
I think the answers to why DD trusted Snape have a connection to his nickname, the Half Blood Prince. The HBP story line was originally in the Chamber of Secrets. However, it was removed. JKR had this to say about the removal of this story line during her cub interview about the HBP:

"I will be very careful, the revelations about the half-blood, for instance, would have blown a lot of things open..."

What would the revelations about Snape being a half-blood have blown open? I honestly don't know. But I think the mystery of DD's trust lies somewhere in the revelations about Snape's parentage.

- - - - - - - - - -
Blaise Zabini - Jul 18, 2005 1:32 pm (#21 of 530)

Snape did not tell anyone that Harry had his old book and was using it. Why?

Verbina, I think Snape did not tell anyone about Harry's potions book because it would reveal that Snape was the HBP. This actually could get Snape in trouble, because a spell such as Sectumsempra would probably have to have been reviewed by the Ministry, and may have been made illegal.

At the same time, I believe that Snape didn't want to attract anymore attention to himself than was already there, because he was seen with Draco, and Draco was a lead suspect to the poisining and cursed-necklace.

- - - - - - - - - -
Potions Mistress - Jul 18, 2005 1:57 pm (#22 of 530)

Politicians and diapers need to be changed for the same reason.--Anon.
Could DD's trust in Snape be the reason he didn't kill Harry his first year? Or could it be that Snape didn't want to lose his job or even the life debt he owed to James? Right now I'm playing Devil's advocate because I'm not sure what to think of Snape.

~pm

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Jul 18, 2005 2:08 pm (#23 of 530)

Sorry, I haven't been posting enough to know how to do quotes and I don't know what thread to use for this comment. However, this quote from one of the past weekend's interviews with JKR was: "“There is plenty to guess at... at least one thing I think people will probably deduce, there is a mystery left at the end, but I think they might already know the answer if they think about it.”

The biggest mystery everyone is talking about at the end of book six is which side Snape is really on. (Most readers commenting seem to think DD's really dead.) Book six appears, at pure face value, to say that Snape's on Voldemort's side. It doesn't take any "thinking about it" to see that. What fits the "they might already know the answer if they think about it," is the other answer -- that he's staying true to DD.

As to why DD trusted Snape -- When Harry is questioning DD about this in light of Snape hearing the prophesy and passing it along to Voldemort, DD gives the reason that Snape really regreted the attack on Harry's parents. DD also seems to pause, as though he's considering saying more, but doesn't. (I'm at work without my book to give quotes.) But this pause and DDs almost saying more made me think that the real reason was likely connected to the whole situation of the prophesy, the attack and murders.

- - - - - - - - - -
loony - Jul 18, 2005 2:43 pm (#24 of 530)

First of all I think DD is dead (not that I like it Sad, but he might still "live through" the phoenix (I hope Smile, anyway I think that DD asked Snape to kill him not to save him at that scene on the tour.

I think that there is a point about letting us know Snape is the Half-blood-prince (I meen no other character has got a book, called after him/her!). Not only that we now know he is quite a powerfull wizard but we know that he is a half-blood, and that he and Lily were just great in the same subject. Even if Lily didn´t have a crush on Snape (but still she wanted to help him in "Snapes worst memory") he might have been in love with her, maybe this is one more reason why he regretted telling LV about the prophecy. First it caused James getting killed (well Snape didn´t like hin but James still has had saved his life) and then also Lily died because of him. There is anyway this strange "you have your mother´s eyes" line coming over and over again - even Jo once said that this is very, very important! I think that it is now interesting to see Snape being half-blood because exactly this was the way he insulted Lily in "Snapes worst memory". Anyway I think the reason DD trusted him has to do something with Lily.

Now coming to the point why nobody acctualy knows the reason DD trusts Snape: I think that the part of the deal between DD and Snape is not to give anyone else the proof that Snape is now good - it means the reason why DD trusts him. Nobody, who´s not a great Occlumence should be able to know it, because it HAS to be a convincing reason -anyway covincing enough to make also Voldemort realise that Snape has switched sides and is with DD now. That´s why the members of the Order don´t know it - not only that they could be "questioned" by Voldemort but there was also a possibility that one of the people DD trusted was working for LV (think about "fake" Mad-Eye Moody). This is also a reason why Harry doesn´t know it, as alicia pointed out, Snape found out that he can´t close his mind during those lessons in OoTP.

I also think that Snape has been purposly making Harry hate him, not only because of the final confrontation with Voldemort (alicias post Wink but also because of all those possible spys or real ones (Draco & co.). Anyway if Harry knew what Snape did, and how dangerous and difficult his "job" for DD is, I´m not sure that Harry would have been able to pretend hating Snape - you know with all those comments that Slytherins could hear passing by, and giving Snape reasons to give him detention and so on. And that´s why Snape has never been nice to Harry, not even when they were alone. If Harry wouldn´t have been able to hold up this "hate-connection" between him and Snape, other students would have noticed it. I´m quite sure that Voldemort wouldn´t trust Snape any more if he heard, that he treated Harry nicely.

I think that Snape has slowly enough of "sacrificing" himself, by making everyone else hate him - neither the members of the Order nor the DE really trust him - must be a hard position to live in for 16? years - that and the "lovely" relationship he had with James are why a part of hate for Harry isn´t faked but real. Like going overboard in HBP when Harry calls him coward. But still Snape never hurted Harry - if it only was for the reason he gave Bellatrix I find it reather strange - he just didn´t have to save Harry during the game in the first year and his (ex-)masters enemy would be dead and noone could even blame Snape.

Well I´m getting quite of the topic now, I´m afraid - sorry.

- - - - - - - - - -
Aurora Gubbins - Jul 18, 2005 3:57 pm (#25 of 530)

Here's what I posted on the Chapter 28 thread...

'We know from Dumbledore that Wormtail owes Harry a great life debt because Harry spared Wormtail's life in PoA. We also know that Snape owed James a life debt because Snape's life was saved by James during their Hogwarts years, however, Snape's actions (in spying for LV) resulted in the deaths of James AND Lily, he obviously realised he made the most horrendous mistake in causing the death of someone he owed his life to. I suppose that in the WW this, as a most terrible act, is second only to creating a horcrux.'

I suppose it is possible that a life debt unpaid has to be paid twofold or threefold to another. It could be that as a result of the deaths of James and Lily that something happened to Snape's soul and Dumbledore took care of it for him - not in the same way as a horcrux, but something similiar; something involving Fawkes, perhaps?

- - - - - - - - - -
Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Jul 18, 2005 6:27 pm (#26 of 530)

Aurora Gubbins, you make a very good point about how being responsible for the death of somebody you owe a life-debt to could be a far more terrible thing in the Wizarding World than in ours. However, don't several Order members - including Lupin, who most definitely knew about the life-debt - seem as sceptical as Harry about Dumbledore trusting Snape based solely on remorse over the Potters' deaths?

- - - - - - - - - -
firebolt - Jul 18, 2005 7:09 pm (#27 of 530)

I thought maybe DD and Snape had an unbreakable vow also, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought that's not how DD operates. I can't really see him making a vow that could result in the other person's death. DD's whole deal is that he simply trusts people. For that reason alone, I'm still on the "Snape will be redeemed" side.

But I hope there's a better reason than Snape's telling DD how sorry he was about James and Lily. That just doesn't ring true for me. If he was really so terribly sorry, wouldn't he at least be nicer to Harry and less hateful toward James? There has to be something more.

- - - - - - - - - -
Verbina - Jul 18, 2005 7:11 pm (#28 of 530)

Image by me. Base by Nefertiti at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think it would depend on the actual strength and the problems associated with an unpaid life debt. With Snape, the life debt was owed to James but after his death, who would Snape repay? I get the feeling that it just doesn't disppear. So he carried his life debt over to Harry, James only son. Sounds to me that given the fact that Snape disliked James so much and disliked Harry almost as much, why on earthw ould be continue to want to repay this debt? It must be very strong magic...stronger than we think actually. Since it is such strong magic, and if Snape was the cause of James and Lily's deaths, then I can only imagine the sort of problems he would have as a result. Almost like living a cursed life I would guess. It would be more than regret. Lupin didn't buy the regret part of it at all. Regret may be the only way to explain it without having to explain it all and I don't think Dumbledore had laid all the cards out on the table as of yet when he died. (If he died. Too many darned questions!)

- - - - - - - - - -
Dragonesss - Jul 18, 2005 7:16 pm (#29 of 530)

Edited by Jul 18, 2005 7:17 pm
"I think that there is a point about letting us know Snape is the Half-blood-prince (I meen no other character has got a book, called after him/her!)."

How about "Prisoner of Azkaban"?

- - - - - - - - - -
K Michaelis - Jul 18, 2005 8:00 pm (#30 of 530)

Now coming to the point why nobody acctualy knows the reason DD trusts Snape: I think that the part of the deal between DD and Snape is not to give anyone else the proof that Snape is now good - it means the reason why DD trusts him. Nobody, who´s not a great Occlumence should be able to know it, because it HAS to be a convincing reason -anyway covincing enough to make also Voldemort realise that Snape has switched sides and is with DD now. That´s why the members of the Order don´t know it - not only that they could be "questioned" by Voldemort but there was also a possibility that one of the people DD trusted was working for LV (think about "fake" Mad-Eye Moody). This is also a reason why Harry doesn´t know it, as alicia pointed out, Snape found out that he can´t close his mind during those lessons in OoTP.

YES! This is what I, too, have thought all along! And, it's why I've always placed my faith in DD's appraisal of Snape (and still do, even though I have NO IDEA what to make of DD's death (fake death? real death? murder?).

One other interesting thing to me. The "other" person who DD is always defending and saying he "trusts completely" is Hagrid. And in HBP, Hagrid's response to Harry's news about Snape killing DD is to think that Harry wasn't right in the head. All the others took Harry's word immediately, even though they were shocked and disappointed. But Hagrid, on the other hand, couldn't initially believe that Snape had done it. Hagrid also always defended Snape against the trio's accusations, and he trusted Snape.

- - - - - - - - - -
Agramante - Jul 18, 2005 9:02 pm (#31 of 530)

I don't think Snape is with Voldemort. He began HBP by lecturing Narcissa and Beatrix on his scheming and acting prowess. He knew what Bellatrix was saying: he was under suspicion from all Death Eaters of betraying Voldemort. He needed to take a step to erase that suspicion, in them and in Voldemort too (so far as he was able). So he took the vow, knowing he'd have to help kill Dumbledore. Consider this: Snape had Dumbledore wandless, helpless, and alone, and killed him. Snape had Harry Potter wandless, helpless, and alone, and spared him. "He's for Lord Voldemort"? I don't know about that one...I think Snape sensed Voldemort's faction winning the war, and decided that his best role in the conflict would be to join Voldemort's side more deeply still. I think killing Dumbledore was part of a huge (and desperate) gambit on Snape's part to help bring down V. I don't know, of course...just a hunch.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ann - Jul 18, 2005 11:24 pm (#32 of 530)

I wonder if the fact of Snape's parentage was the clue that was too important to give us in CoS. The fact that his father was a Muggle might mean that there was a possible family connection between him and Harry--and more important, Lily. JKR has been fairly adamant that no one can (or even should) love Snape. I suppose he might have had an unrequited passion for her, but a family connection seems more likely. So his regret might be stronger for having caused the death of a relative as well as someone to whom he owed a life debt. (I think life debts are morally compelling, in a destiny-like way, but not magically enforced.) It's also significant that everyone knows that Snape hated James, but only Harry "knows" that he hated Lily.

The fact that Dumbledore uses that odd formulation in describing Snape's "mistake"--that he didn't realize it would be interpreted in a way that would cause the death of someone he "knew"... Well, of course he would probably "know" people who were of an age to be having children: as a Hogwarts student he would have known people six years younger and six years older than himself, and since people seem to have generally married soon after Hogwarts, that would be very probable. So I think Dumbledore meant more than "knowing" them.

Something else that struck me--and told me that Snape was lying to Narcissa and Bellatrix in Chapter 2: He says that he was quite interested in Potter when he arrived at Hogwarts, suggesting that like other people who had been Death Eaters, Snape thought he might have been potentially a new leader to rally around. In fact, he doesn't seem to have been remotely interested in Potter or inclined to nurture his talents or ingratiate himself with him--all reasonable things that he might have done if he was evil and thought Harry might have been Dark. No, Snape is on the side of the angels, I think.

- - - - - - - - - -
Solitaire - Jul 19, 2005 12:06 am (#33 of 530)

I posted the following on Snape's thread last week:

Well, the heir of Slytherin was a half-blood, so it wouldn't shock me to learn the HBP was Snape. To be honest, Lily's response in the pensieve scene when Snape called her a mudblood ...

Lily blinked. "Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus."

... has always kind of niggled at me ... as if she might have known something about him. "Lily blinked" makes me think she was shocked at this comment coming from Snape. Why would she be shocked? Did she, perhaps, know that Snape was also not a pure-blood? And her response seems born from hurt ... not something she would say under normal circumstances. Just rambling ...

I posted the above on the 14th. Now I wonder ... could it have been the reason for her surprise at his remark? If it was, why and how did she know he was not pure-blood? Were they related somehow?

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - -
Aurora Gubbins - Jul 19, 2005 12:12 am (#34 of 530)

Astragynia; Yes, everyone did know about the life debt between Snape and James, but I don't think very many people knew about Snape overhearing the prophecy. In fact, hardly anyone knew there was a prophecy and now that secret is out, there is only a small handful of people who know anything at all about it, especially Trelawney - and she was more involved than most. Evidence to support my theory is the fact that no-one believes Trelawney capable of making any kind of prediction or prophecy, she is, to coin a phrase, "an old fraud." Also, Snape wouldn't have lasted as long as he has had that information got out.

- - - - - - - - - -
Chemyst - Jul 19, 2005 5:45 am (#35 of 530)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
So many great thoughts on this thread- I almost feel unworthy to add mine... almost

Related to why DD trusted (oops, past tense in the thread title!) Snape, what would DD have been thinking when he saw the dark mark over Hogwarts? He'd already told Harry to go get Snape, but after seeing the dark mark, he wanted brooms to get back to Hogwarts. As soon as they did, he still wanted Harry to go wake up Snape. (Eventually accomplished by Flitwick) ( How could Draco have known DD was on the roof? )

After apparating back to Hogsmeade, I assumed DD wanted Snape to heal him or come up with an antidote potion, but once back at Hogwarts, Harry asks DD what the dark mark means, DD's answer is "Go and wake Severus." (Not Professor Snape this time.) DD wanted Snape for another reason now ... Was DD worried that Draco may already have become a killer at that point?

wynnleaf, I thought that interview quote was talking about "Who is R.A.B.?"

- - - - - - - - - -
Loopy Lupin - Jul 19, 2005 6:07 am (#36 of 530)

I think that DD trusted Snape because there was an Unbreakable Vow between them. It is impossible to know the details of it, but I think the upshot was that Snape was bound to kill DD under certain circumstances which, apparently, presented themselves that night. Snape made a vow with Narcissa that he would protect Draco and that he would perform Draco's task if Draco could not. I think there was already a vow between Snape and DD prior to that which bound Snape to do whatever DD asked when it came to students or the school, even if it meant killing DD.

Rereading last night I came back across the scene outside the hospital where Hagrid lets slip that Snape and DD had been arguing. The gist of it was that Snape didn't want to go through with something anymore and DD was reminding him that he had no choice. I think what Snape had no choice about was killing DD if asked.

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 19, 2005 6:35 am (#37 of 530)

If in fact my conclusion, the one I posted earlier on this thread, is correct and I'm reasonably sure it is Smile then Snape purposefully didn't tell LV the 2nd half of the prophecy thus leading us to realize that, he's most likely a good guy ultimately, working with DD. I am convinced though that DD didn't tell Harry who heard the prophecy, not to keep it from Harry, but to protect Snape.

I re-read some last night and Hagrid and the teachers reactions were very interesting, to Snape being the one. For so long he was either very trustworthy or acting so trustworthy it was convincing to all, including DD. I'd like to believe he's a double agent but I honestly don't. I think he's the Lords Prince and he's always wanted to be. We've had plenty of clues, I think we just don't want to believe they're true.

So, If Snape is a bad guy and killed DD, then why did DD trust him? I think, personally, for the same reason he trusts all, he wants to believe in the good of people, that they can redeem. After all, if he didn't tell his dark Lord about the prophecy, perhaps it was all DD needed to be convinced. I still, while writing this, hope to be wrong and hope that he's a double agent.

I also, and this should go on the other thread, but I also do believe now, having re-read and fine tuned my theory, that DD is in fact, truly dead ... but, As in Chamber, repeated in Prince "Dumbledore will never really be truly gone, until none there believe in him"

This of course could be a simple meaning of his memory will always be available and perhaps Fawkes as well.

Or it could mean that he used a form of magic to prevent his really leaving under these circumstances.

- - - - - - - - - -
Verbina - Jul 19, 2005 7:14 am (#38 of 530)

Image by me. Base by Nefertiti at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Edited by Jul 19, 2005 7:20 am
There is one thing though that supports the trust Dumbledore had in Snape...as far as we know, Snape never let on where the Order was housed. Yes, I know it was a secret with Dumbledore as a secret keeper making it so no one could tell where the order was at.

But...you would think that the house of Black would be well known to the purebloods and to the DEs. Especially somoene like Lucius since he was married to a relative. It wasn't always secret from people. So Snape could have told someone something to give them a clue where it was. I only wish I knew more of how the secret keeping actually works here. Because if it made the house invisible, then somoene in the wizarding world that knew the Black house would find it odd that the house was gone suddenly, wouldn't they?

- - - - - - - - - -
narisa - Jul 19, 2005 7:19 am (#39 of 530)

Somehow I think Snape is on the good side, and he killed DD on DD own will.No offence, but the scene somehow make me remember Star Wars when Obiwon was dead, I think there are reasons more than just prevent Malfoy being murderor. I mean being kill in front of Harry and Molffoy and DE. I always thought DD will die in book 7, this is one year sooner!!TT

For the question Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape?, well, he is always a trusting sort of people, isn't it? But I agree that there is more reason than he told Harry, though I have no clue why. I don't think they make the unbreakable vow, it isn't kind of things he will do. Anyway, everything is breakable, we saw too many of this.(a killing spell that can't kill Harry etc) We don't know much about the vow to say it doesn't have exception.

What am I doing!!! Reading a novel from 6pm-6am without sleeping, when the examination is about to start in a week! I didn't even go home to bring the book, I thought it is wise. But a friend of mine DID, and I can't help but begging him to read it. I just can't resist.

- - - - - - - - - -
bugggirl - Jul 19, 2005 7:38 am (#40 of 530)

I really hoped to get a more in depth reason for why DD trusted Snape. When I read the end of the book I just couldn't believe DD trusted him just on remorse. I had a heavy feeling that DD was too trusting and had been double-crossed by Snape. I hated it and it broke my heart. I truly hope, fingers crossed, that DD knew that Snape had to kill him or that it was planned ahead of time. I truly want to believe that Snape is working for the good side. Ugghh! Who knew a book could cause me so much grief!

- - - - - - - - - -
Spursgirl79 - Jul 19, 2005 8:09 am (#41 of 530)

Hi there! Coming out of a 2 year lurkdom to finally add my own thoughts!

I never really expected it to, but it does seem to me that the whole 'Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape' query is going to be one of the central mysteries of the series. Time after time Harry has questioned Dumbledore about this, and has never got an answer from him. Dumbledore never lies to Harry, but he has evidently refrained from telling Harry the entire truth, and until we find that out there is no way that Snape will be vindicated. I don't ever expect Snape to be cleared as a 'goodie' by the entire Wizard community, but for Harry to accept that Snape was trustworthy after all is the crux of the final book. We've already seen in this new book that Harry can have some respect for Snape: whilst the identity of the Half Blood Prince was unknown to Harry he held him in some reverence. Of course, Dumbledore in portrait form may be able to clear this up, or a look in the pensieve, but as Harry seems determined to stay away from Hogwarts, I think this won't be found out until near the end of book 7. I still believe that Snape will sacrifice his life to help Harry finally kill Voldemort.

I had managed to convince myself over the last 2 years that my obsession over Snape was clouding my objectivity, and that he was in fact a relatively unimportant character who would not have such a major involvement in the final storyline.. I am so ecstatic that I was wrong!

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Jul 19, 2005 9:21 am (#42 of 530)

I have one problem with Snape knowing the full prophecy. If he did, then DD had deliberately lied to Harry when he said that only the two of them knew the full contents...

And I would like to think that DD was above lying to Harry...

- - - - - - - - - -
psipsina - Jul 19, 2005 9:27 am (#43 of 530)

Hi guys

I was reading the interview posted on the Leaky Cauldron, and I came accross the following quote by JK:

"that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes"

referring to DD and Snape's relationship, after being asked whether Snape is really evil etc. She obviously could not answer the question but she said that DD made mistakes because he was always the one giving the insight etc, and had no partner next to him...

It seems to me that JK was saying that DD trusted Snape out of the goodness of his heart, when he shouldn't have had...

- - - - - - - - - -
mischa fan - Jul 19, 2005 9:40 am (#44 of 530)

Easy being green, it is not
I think Dumbledore's trust of Snape can be summed up in on line, when Dumbledore makes a mistake it tends to be huge. Snape did something to make Dumbledore trust him, I think coming clean about his activity with the Death Eaters would go along way with Dumbledore, and maybe feeding him information about what the Death Eaters were up to, what would Voldemort care if a couple of Death Eaters ended up in Azkaban or dead, it was a price worth paying to get close to Dumbledore, I think all this led to Dumbledore's misplaced trust on Snape.

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Jul 19, 2005 10:08 am (#45 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Hello everybody! This is my first post out here.

I think that the very fact that Snape told Voldy about the prophecy reveals us that he's on the good side. Telling the prophecy to Voldemort has actually created a mortal enemy to Voldy. Before Voldy knew of the prophecy, there was virtually nobody that could defeat him. But the prophecy states that there is someone that could kill Voldy. And as DD tells Harry, "if Voldemort had never heard of the prophecy, would it have been fulfilled?" (HBP23 p. 476 UK edition). So Snape, going to tell Voldy of the prophecy (half of the prophecy on purpose, as many other people here think) has in fact created someone who could defeat Voldemort. I think this is why DD trustes (well, trusted) Snape su much.

And I think that was actually Snape that suggested Voldy (if Voldy was to be suggested) that the boy was Harry and not Neville. Because Snape knew so well James, and he himself was an half-blood. This is my little theory.

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 19, 2005 10:56 am (#46 of 530)

Eunice, great first post! I totally agree with you. You articulated what I couldn't.

I do think that Snape heard the whole of the prophecy though, Paulus, because Harry sees the whole thing in DDs memory, if Snape had been caught at the door before he heard the end of it, there would have been an altered memory or the like. Therefore, Eunice is correct is saying that Snape only told LV what DD and Snape wanted him to know, therefore not only building his trust towards DD and proving his true intentions but allowing the prophecy to be fulfilled.

- - - - - - - - - -
nu9p - Jul 19, 2005 11:19 am (#47 of 530)

Many people have brought up the fact that if Snape was truly on Voldemort's side why didn't he kill or at least hurt Harry when they fought? Snape might have told us. I believe Voldemort was going to use, and is still planning to use Harry's murder to complete his sixth horcrux. This is why Voldemort is so adamant that he kill Harry, and not a death eater. If this is true, than this would be a good reason for Snape to not kill or hurt Harry at the end of book six, however, I am unsure if he will end up good or bad, but I am leaning towards good. So I guess I am doing a "Devil's Advocate" thing.

- - - - - - - - - -
The Weaslys - Jul 19, 2005 12:17 pm (#48 of 530)

It's great to see all the great Snape discussion. I thought I had Snape finally figured out. This is what I thought. Even though his hand twitched during the making of the Unbreakable Vow, (suggesting reluctance?)I thought that the scene during which Snape actually kills DD (sniff) was pretty definate proof that all along Snape was on LV's side. I didn't want it to be true, but I thought "oh well, this is it." This is how Snape is described.....

"Snape gazed for a moment at DD, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face."

So I figured the hatred and revulsion we see is how Snape has really felt about DD all along. Then enter my annoying college age Weasly who has to disagree and drat it all he makes a good point... Without further ado I leave to let him state his case. Bye

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 19, 2005 12:48 pm (#49 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Jesepi, in another thread, suggested Snape may have told DD about the horcrux (for the DE don't seem aware there are several of them), that would be a better argument for DD's trust in Snape than just remorse for setting LV on the Potters.

On the other hand, in Mugglenet and TLC's interview with Jo, she says :
ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.

[Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree.

ES: How can someone so -

JKR: Intelligent -

ES: be so blind with regard to certain things?

JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He’s always the one who gives, he’s always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that.

What would be DD's emotional mistake in book 6 ? His trust in Snape or something else ?

- - - - - - - - - -
The Weaslys - Jul 19, 2005 12:52 pm (#50 of 530)

Hi, Weezly here. As Mrs Weasly says above, I most heartily disagree with her opinion about Snape.

The way I see it, in Spinner's End his hand twitches because he definately does NOT want to make the Vow. He doesn't want Bella to know that he's on DD's side, but she essentially traps him.

Having said that, he would have told DD that he had been forced to promise to kill him should Draco fail. DD doesn't see a way out for Snape, so that was that.

Thus the revulsion on his face is not directed at DD but rather at the task at hand.

DD doesn't want Draco to be responsible for his death, so he endeavors to delay him until the time he figures snape will show up, at which point he throws his 'I'm still fit' facade to the winds and begs Snape to get it over with.

THe hatred on Snape's face could have several origins. It could be directed at those who forced him into this, or even at himself for allowing himself to get trapped in the first place. It's also just conceivable that he hates DD for having him kill him rather than dying himself by breaking the Vow; Snape would have figured that DD could have saved himself somehow, weakened or not, but DD thought Snape was more useful alive as a spy than dead as a traitor.

also, there may be more to Snape's near-hysterical reaction to being called a coward. His reaction could have originated from the fact that he had just been forced to kill and gone through with killing his only real friend- not a cowardly thing to have done!

Well, hope this all makes sense. And no one can say I haven't done my best for Gina!!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 51 to 100)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:15 am

septentrion - Jul 19, 2005 12:56 pm (#51 of 530)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
His reaction could have originated from the fact that he had just been forced to kill and gone through with killing his only real friend- not a cowardly thing to have done!

It reminds me of DD awarding points to Neville to have stand against his friends.

- - - - - - - - - -
mollis - Jul 19, 2005 1:16 pm (#52 of 530)

Edited by Jul 19, 2005 1:16 pm
“when Dumbledore makes a mistake it tends to be huge”

Unfortunately, this does seem to be a key point. There is a reason she pointed this out to us again. I have never liked Snape or understood some people’s fascination with him. (sorry, Gina!) He has always seemed so purely mean-spirited – not necessarily Voldy-evil, but certainly not someone that you want around a lot. When Dumbledore keep saying that he has his reasons for trusting Snape, I figured it would be a big revelation one day. If it was just that he confessed to DD that he had told Voldy what he had heard of the prophecy, that doesn’t seem like enough. Even if, as I believe, Snape is actually the one who warned DD that the Potter’s were Voldy’s next target, it still doesn’t seem like enough.

As for Snape being the one who overheard the prophesy: I don’t think what we learned in Bk6 really alters what we knew or assumed before. As I understand/interpret it, as DD finishes interviewing Trelawney she slips into her trance and begins the prophecy. Snape is outside the doors eavesdropping. As I invision this scene, mid-prophecy Snape is seen by Aberforth (DD’s brother and the bartender). Snape takes off. Originally I thought he probably got away, but that Aberforth knew the eavesdropper’s identity. Now I suspect that Aberforth chased Snape, caught him, and brought him back to DD. Trelawney comes out of her trance to see Snape standing in the doorway. I don’t think Snape knows the entire prophesy. DD wouldn’t have lied to Harry about that. No way.

So, Snape heard part of the prophesy and was immediately caught. Here’s my question – why didn’t DD erase Snape’s memory? Or maybe he did… There has got to be more to this though. Some more substantial reason why DD trusted Snape, and I think it starts with the prophesy.

- - - - - - - - - -
Potions Mistress - Jul 19, 2005 1:27 pm (#53 of 530)

Politicians and diapers need to be changed for the same reason.--Anon.
All right, I know I'm in the minority here, but I think that Snape is and always was a DE. (This is not to say that you all have not made wonderful and thought-provoking arguments!) This is not something I wanted to believe, and I hope I'm wrong. However, I believe the hatred and revulsion on Snape's face had to do with DD's trust in him (as "a fool who wears his heart on his sleeve"--quoting from memory). I believe that DD's trust in Snape was most unfortunately misplaced and he paid the ultimate price for that mistake. I think that DD was shocked to see Snape in such a way. So assuming this p.o.v. (which I realize many of you do not--but that's why this forum is so much fun!), I don't think that Snape is totally irredeemable. Face it, he owes DD, and whether this debt is magical or not, I do think that will come into play in Book 7. So, I think it's possible that Snape will set aside his DE's ways in the end, to help defeat LV (though he'll probably die in the effort). Just my 2 knuts.

~pm

- - - - - - - - - -
The Weaslys - Jul 19, 2005 1:36 pm (#54 of 530)

Good point, PM. It's definatly worth thinking about. Weezly

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 19, 2005 1:44 pm (#55 of 530)

JKR tells us originally that DD tells Harry that someone overheard part of the prophecy and was caught, etc. That was what we were to believe before book 6.

We learn in book 6 that that's not at all what happened. DD hears the entire prophecy and it's only upon completion of it that the door opens to find Snivelus there with his big nose propped to the door. So, DD did in fact mislead Harry. Why?

If it happened the way you suggest, where Snape was caught and brought back, thus only hearing part of the prophecy, there'd be no misleading, no covering up. Because it didn't happen that way, because it's evident he heard the whole of the prophecy, it suggests that Snape then didn't reveal all he knew to his Lord thingamajig and thus, gives a viable reason for DD to trust Snape.

- - - - - - - - - -
mollis - Jul 19, 2005 2:13 pm (#56 of 530)

Edited by Jul 19, 2005 2:13 pm
Very Sirius wrote: "If it happened the way you suggest, where Snape was caught and brought back, thus only hearing part of the prophecy, there'd be no misleading, no covering up. Because it didn't happen that way, because it's evident he heard the whole of the prophecy, it suggests that Snape then didn't reveal all he knew to his Lord thingamajig and thus, gives a viable reason for DD to trust Snape."

Very Sirius, what evidence do you have to say that it didn't happen the way I suggest? DD was very specific when he told Harry in the broom cupboard outside the Weasley's that he and Harry were the only two people who have heard the whole prophesy.

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 19, 2005 2:44 pm (#57 of 530)

I, like the rest of you, am trying to figure out how somebody like DD would trust Snape, as he does. In my opinion, the explanation of the prophecy gives me that viable answer.

I have no challenge to you, other than the books themselves and I am suggesting that DD mislead Harry. We know he did, by not telling him that Snape was the one who overheard the prophecy. Of course here you can argue it was because there was already so much animosity towards Snape and mistrust of him by Harry, why do more to warrant even more bad feeling. But, given the light of things, given the fact that DD definitively trusts Snape, As I'm searching for that reason, it seems, as I stated, most viable that he gave him a reason to trust him. He proved himself trustworthy to DD. How? By not revealing what he overheard in the prophecy.

I read what most said about the after effects of that night, where he came to DD and asked for redemption, was pitifully sorry and DD bought it. To me, that seems less likely a scenario because of DDs ability and understanding of things. DD would have seen through those pleas, would have thought he was there on LVs orders. Even though he's so highly intelligent and wants to believe people are good and redeemable, I think, I hope, even he's smarter than that. So, i'm back to him giving him a reason to trust him.

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 19, 2005 3:21 pm (#58 of 530)

Perhaps Snape took the Unbreakable vow with Dumbledore.

- - - - - - - - - -
mischa fan - Jul 19, 2005 3:30 pm (#59 of 530)

Easy being green, it is not
I do not think Snape herd the whole prophesy, Dumbledore clearly tells Harry that only the two of them have herd the whole prophesy. Dumbledore has never misled Harry, let alone lied to him. He has told him partial truths and withhold the truth from Harry. I think if Snape had herd the entire prophesy then Dumbledore would have told him someone else knows it, but would not have told him who. I also think now that Dumbledore is dead, we will never know fully exactly why he trusted Snape so much.

- - - - - - - - - -
jesepi - Jul 19, 2005 3:39 pm (#60 of 530)

Dumbledore Lives!!!
Obviously something substantial had to happen for DD to trust Snape in such a way. I agree that DD can't tell anyone or else LV might find out (one way or another) and there would be no way for Snape to explain it away. One thing I don't understand is why DD never allowed Snape the DADA post. Snape says that DD didn't want to tempt him, but that doesn't make any sense. If DD thought that Snape was that weak how could he handle the spy postion? If DADA would tempt Snape then being a fellow DE certainly would. Anyway, my point is that something extremely substantial happened for DD to trust him. DD doesn't lie, which means Snape did not hear the entire prophecy, so it must be something else.

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 19, 2005 4:50 pm (#61 of 530)

I will concede though, that i'm hanging on to this idea so strongly, because I simply cannot figure out why in the world DD would have otherwise trusted him.

Look at it this way, if Snape was working for LV at the time, heard only half of the prophecy, then DD allowed him to go back and tell LV, to allow for the prophecy (which otherwise wouldn't have) taken place, then LV killed Harrys parents, and then Snape came back all crushed about it, begging for redemption, how does that show why DD trusts Snape? My point is, DD is too smart for that, there'd have to be a reason, or something Snape did to prove he can be trusted.

I did read JKRs interview though and now see that she feels that intelligence doesn't equate wisdom or rationale or reason, so to speak. Perhaps we just gave him more credit than due. I notice she does the same thing with Hermione, being smart, but trusting. I remember in POA (the movie) where she wanted to reason with Lupin in Werewolf form, that may be what we're dealing with here.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Jul 19, 2005 4:59 pm (#62 of 530)

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I have come to believe that the only reason Dumbledore never wanted to give Snape the DADA position was that he knew he would lose him when he did... I am not even sure Snape wanted the position as badly as we are led to believe he did.. Any thoughts?

- - - - - - - - - -
jesepi - Jul 19, 2005 5:03 pm (#63 of 530)

Dumbledore Lives!!!
Are you saying that the DADA position was truly cursed so if DD appointed Snape then something would have to happen and Snape would have to go?

I guess, that is what happened in HBP after all.

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Jul 19, 2005 5:05 pm (#64 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Solitaire - Thank you, thank you, thank you! Snape's "Worst" memory has ALWAYS stuck with me too. Why would this be his worst memory? Well, there's the obvious reasons, but the Lily connection and her protection of him when bullied struck me. Then he calls her the "MB" word and her "blink" at it. Could this be his worst memory because at that moment, in his frustration and humiliation, when he calls her that, he knows he has lost her friendship forever? (I don't really think it's romantic love we're talking about here. He might be enchanted in her in Snape's kind of way, but I would think it's one-sided.)

Now, when JKR notes something like a major blink and pause in a character's reaction, you know it's going to be important later.(Just like Snape's twitch and pause just before making the Unbreakable Vow in HPB.) At first you think JKR wants us and Harry to see how is dad wasn't as great a guy as we all thought. Lily and James weren't an item yet. So, up to that time, who do you think Lily was friendly with at school? We know now from HBP that Snape and Lily truly excelled in Potions. I believe that the reason why DD implictly trusted Snape has something to do with Lily. JKR herself has said in interviews that in the 7th book we will find out a HUGE secret about Lily and that Harry's eyes (exactly like his mother's) are vital to the 6th and 7th books. In HBP Harry's eyes and alcohol got Slughorn to give up his closely guarded memory of young Tom Riddle/LV. Wouldn't you think this Lily connection might fuel Snape's disgust and emotion when he looks into Harry's eyes - James' face with the woman's eyes that he cared about and a reminder of what could have been or lost friendship? Heck, maybe they were just Potions-partners together and Lily was the only girl that was ever nice to him and he admired her intellect! But, Snape and Lily both have muggle blood in them. As many others have previously posted, perhaps they are related in someway as half-siblings or cousins?

I really do apologize for my rambling, but I do believe that this HUGE thing we'll learn about Lily in Book 7 will be the Snape connection to her and also, this will be the answer to what we're all going to agonize over until the last book - why exactly DD trusted Snape and did Snape kill him as LV's agent or "DD's man, through and through?" It's weird to think of Snape in that way, but wouldn't be amazing if that's how it all works out in the end? As JKR says, there's more to Snape than meets the eye. Oh, JKR was also truly stunned in a UK radio interview when a call-in questioner commented on "Snape's interesting redemptive pattern." My memory could be wrong, but this was back when GoF was published I think? She said at the time that she was stunned that the caller would bring that up about Snape and that we will see more of this pattern in Snape in the final book. Interesting, is it not?

- - - - - - - - - -
mrweasley - Jul 19, 2005 5:10 pm (#65 of 530)

If we had hoped that, after having finished HBP, we'd finally know more about Snape that could give us the possibility to judge his character any better, I guess we were dissapointed - and more than that: Snape's character is even more confusing and ambiguous than ever.

I agree with those who have stated that Dumbledore trusted Snape because the latter told him about his strong affections for Lily. If we suppose that Snape loved Lily and that he was unknowingly responsible for Voldemort murdering her and James (by telling him about the bit of the prophecy he'd overheard)- than I guess the remorse Snape felt was strong enough to make him change sides.

I am certain that Dumbledore's begging "Please Severus..." did not mean "Please don't kill me.", but "Sacrifice my life and fulfill your duty."

But I guess that is a whole new topic - that will hopefully be opened soon... :-)

- - - - - - - - - -
Professor Kosh - Jul 19, 2005 5:16 pm (#66 of 530)

Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
This is one of the hardest to figure out things.

1. DD's trust in Snape was so absolute, defending him against all others (including many of the OoP I'll wager) that there has to be a very strong reason for it. DD, being the intellect that he was, is likely to have a VERY good reason for this. So, even in the events at the end of HBP, doubt remains, without any other evidence of Snape's 'good' side. However, there IS more evidence.

2. Snape doesn't harm Harry. He doesn't capture him. This doesn't make sense if he really had betrayed DD. Even if Volde wanted to kill Harry himself, he could have easily captured him (his running duel with Harry almost seemed to toy with him, so Snape's abilities are probably quite high, perhaps as high as Sirius and James were. He did invent his own spells after all).

- - - - - - - - - -
mrweasley - Jul 19, 2005 5:29 pm (#67 of 530)

Exactly, Professor Kosh. Plus, Snape even seems to deliberately prevent Harry from using unforgivable curses (Cruciatus), to save him from committing a crime! Snape's whole conduct after DD's death seems to suggest that he is trying to protect Harry and everybody else: He makes the Death Eaters withdraw immediately and protects Harry from the Cruciatus Curse (from receiving it as well as from casting it).

- - - - - - - - - -
Susanne W - Jul 19, 2005 6:00 pm (#68 of 530)

OK. I'm brand new to the forum (this is only my 2nd post), so please excuse any faux pas. I want so badly to trust Dumbledore. And, no I haven't had a chance to do a 2nd reading. My dear husband is still working on his 1st time through. A lot of the arguments I've read in this thread make so much sense. But I cannot ignore the lines of hatred "etched" in Snape's face just prior to killing DD. Any thoughts on this? If it weren't for that one detail, I don't think I'd be having so much difficulty trusting DD's judgement as usual. But why is it so impossible for Harry's first instincts to have been correct?

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 19, 2005 6:22 pm (#69 of 530)

It's not Susanne, it's actually very interesting. As I said above, JKR wants us to make that distinction between intellectual and wise. Harry is wise. He isn't great in class or with school work, like Hermione, but unlike Hermione and DD who almost blindly trust and accept those like Kreacher and Snape for example, Harry sees them for what they are, not what they could be, if only ...

- - - - - - - - - -
Half Blood Princess - Jul 19, 2005 8:26 pm (#70 of 530)

You know, the more I read Spinner's End, the more I think that Snape is working for himself. Because, he never actually PROVES he knows what Cissy is talking about. Cissy brings it up, and THEN he says he knows all about the plan. He said that Voldemort told him all about the plan. And then Bella goes off a bit more about the plan. Just enough for Snape to figure out SOMETHING. Then he does the Unbreakable Vow, because he figures this is a way he can get Dumbledore out of the way. Now he just has to figure out how to get Voldie out of the way.

Dumbledore makes clear to Harry that Voldemort works alone. What would have been the point of Voldie telling Snape this plan regarding Draco? Or did Voldie have so much trust in Snape, as much as Dumbledore did?

Also, Harry makes the connection, "Half Blood PRINCE, LORD Voldemort" and so I think that Snape always wanted to be like Voldie, so hence his name. So now I belive that SNAPE wants to take over the world, since he has been shunned his whole life and wants to make himself feel important. Isn't success the best revenge in this case? Sometimes the student outgrows the teacher...But that couldn't happen to Harry and DD because DD "died". ( I only put that in quotations because I am one of the DD LIVES people.) But I do think that Snape is working against both Voldie and DD, and this will be his undoing, and he will die in the last book. Just my thoughts.

OOORRRR Snape figures out a way to kill Voldie and everyone else and rules the world. The End.

P.S. Didn't Snape also say something to Draco in HBP (I can't find it ANYWHERE) about if he didn't know how to act for 16 years he wouldn't be here with Dumbledore or something like that. I will try and find it later. But I remember that it was a line almost similar to one he fed Bella about Voldie, that he was selling a similar line to Draco about DD. Thats why I need to find that line in the book. I read it and thought, he fed a line to bella, and now draco....hmmmm...he's working alone on this one. Just like Voldie works alone.

- - - - - - - - - -
The Wandless Wizard - Jul 19, 2005 8:40 pm (#71 of 530)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 19, 2005 9:57 pm
I am really liking the Snape loved Lily theory. It is starting to make sense to me. I apologize for all the other people's thoughts I am about to steal, but I am going to lay it completely out as I see it. I also apologize in advance for the length (I am wordy).

Snape and Lily are in Potions together, and probably the Slug Club. They are on friendly terms. They probably do homework together being the best two potions students in the class. Snape is confused by his feelings toward Lily since she is muggle-born. Snape grew up hating his father and everything about muggles. But Lily is nice to him. In fact, part of the reason she doesn't like James is because James is mean to Snape. Then comes the day of Snape's Worst memory. I don't know about the rest of you, but my worst memories are not of the things others have done to me, but the stupid mistakes I have made. So while Snape being hung upside down is embarrassing, that is not the part Snape hates from his memory. It is Snape's worst memory because he insults Lily out of anger and embarrassment. Lily stops being nice to Snape and stops disliking James so much as well. Snape realizes he loves Lily, but she marries his worst enemy. Crushed, he throws himself into the Dark Arts, an area he already flirted with.

Come the night in Hogshead, Snape manages to weasel his way out of there only hearing half the prophecy. In exchange for the information, he asks a favor of Voldemort that Lily be spared. Voldemort agrees. In an interview with Mugglenet and the Leaky Cauldron for the HBP release, JKR confirmed that Voldemort did offer Lily a chance to live and it was unusual. However, she would not explain why as it was a spoiler. If Snape loved Lily and asked her to be saved, that would be a spoiler and explain it. But Lily refused and Voldemort didn't care too much about upholding his word to a minion, so he AK'd her.

This infuriated Snape. First he had pushed away the woman he loved and then years later he caused her death. He was furious with himself and hated himself. But almost as much he hated Voldemort who did the deed and broke his word. So he came to Dumbledore, partly out of remorse but as much out of hate. Snape bared his soul to Dumbledore. Occlumency can hide what you don't want seen, but it can't create things that are not there. DD saw that Snape truly did love Lily and he truly did want Voldemort dead. So Snape promised himself and Dumbledore (not the unbreakable kind, DD wouldn't do that) to take Voldemort down. In return, DD promised never to reveal what he saw in Snape's mind. Snape isn't a good guy. However the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Snape fights with the good guys to bring Voldemort down. Snape hates Harry even more because he represents what he could never have with Lily. He also believes that his mistake drove Lily to James and thus created Harry (however realistic or not that belief is).

So that is why DD trusts Snape, because he knows Snape's hatred for Voldemort is greater than anything else. At the same time, he is still evil and despicable and fully worthy of being hated (which I do).

-TWW

- - - - - - - - - -
Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Jul 19, 2005 9:09 pm (#72 of 530)

We can't necessarily assume that Snape and Lily were in the same Potions class - HRH are in a class that is only 2 houses, Gryffindor and Slytherin, and it's very possible that the combination of houses for potions classes has changed in 20 years (Lily could have had potions with Hufflepuffs and Snape with Ravenclaws, for example). I realize that JKR really does call a LOT of attention to the whole "Lily was very good at Potions" thing though...

We also can't assume that Snape was in the Slug Club. Yes, he was clearly very gifted at Potions and the Dark Arts, but Sirius, Lupin, and Snape's Worst Memory all give the impression that Snape was generally disliked and considered a loser at school, and Slughorn goes for the winners. On the other hand, though, there's a quote somewhere about Snape being in a group of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters - could that "group" be the Slug Club?

Is it possible for me to have one foot on the Snape/Cissy Ship and one foot on the Snape/Lily Ship? I guess as long as the water isn't full of Inferi it can't be too bad, right? Smile

- - - - - - - - - -
Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 19, 2005 9:32 pm (#73 of 530)

Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor, the quote you are referring to is in GoF the group that Snape was a part of included Avery, the Lestranges, Rosier, and Wilkes.

- - - - - - - - - -
Chad Robichaux - Jul 19, 2005 10:02 pm (#74 of 530)

This doesn't really have to do with this topic but it was the place I thought it would fit best. If I remember correctly Harry states that the advanced potions book that belonged to the HBP is around 50 years old. He said that this ruled out his parents or his parents friends. Wouldn't this rule out snape as the HBP also? If so, was the HBP potions book a hand me down or did snape find it?

- - - - - - - - - -
Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Jul 19, 2005 10:14 pm (#75 of 530)

Thank you for the quote, Nathan Zimmerman - and by the way, plain "Astragynia" works just fine. Smile I don't even have Tonks' excuse about a "fool of a mother"... oh well.

"Avery, the Lestranges, Rosier, and Wilkes" ...hmm, doesn't that overlap somewhat with the Slug Club of the Tom Riddle era? We know that Slughorn is a big fan of nepotism, so maybe that argues in favor of that "group" being the Slug Club of Snape's time.

Chad Robichaux, I think Book6 says the Potions book was a hand-me-down from Snape's mother. I was a little disappointed with that explanation, too - it led us away from Snape rather unfairly, I think.

- - - - - - - - - -
Solitaire - Jul 19, 2005 11:36 pm (#76 of 530)

Mollis: I have never liked Snape or understood some people’s fascination with him.

I agree, Mollis! Even if he is not on Voldemort's side, he is mean and rotten! At last, a kindred spirit!

Edit: BTW, unless Dumbledore lied to Harry, this is what he said about the eavesdropper in the Hog's Head:

"My--our--one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building."
"So he only heard ...?"
"He heard only the first part, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you--again marking you as his equal."

It sounds to me, too, as if Snape heard only a part of the prophecy. I don't know how else that particular passage could be interpreted, unless there was yet another eavesdropper ... or else Dumbledore lied.

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Jul 19, 2005 11:50 pm (#77 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Wandless wizard, it seems you have already written a fanfiction about Snape/Lily! Wow, it was a delightful reading but I don't believe it's all true. I don't think Snape was in the Slug Club, he was too asocial and disliked for that. But I begin to believe that the "worst" memory was tied with the Lily thing. James and Sirius must have joked on him many, many times, so it wouldn't be anything special. But the presence of Lily was different. Moreover James performed on him one of his spell. Also that LV offered Lily to spare her (on Snape's request?) is a fascinating bit of theory.

I have already written why I think DD trusted Snape - telling Voldemort of the prophecy has in fact fulfilled it, and now there is an enemy able to defeat LV.

- - - - - - - - - -
Spursgirl79 - Jul 20, 2005 3:34 am (#78 of 530)

I think it is possible that Lily and Snape were both in the Slug Club.. Slughorn has shown that, whilst he mainly goes for people with fame or connections, he also invites those in who show skill (remember Ginny and her hexes?).. so teaching both Lily and Snape in Potions, and seeing their skill, would most probably lead to an invitation to join... and would perhaps allow them to become more friendly than they would do in classes. I don't think we would have seen so much about the Slug Club if it wasn't going to be mentioned again in Book 7.

The more we find out, the more I'm leaning towards the 'Snape in love with Lily' theory as being correct.

- - - - - - - - - -
jesepi - Jul 20, 2005 5:35 am (#79 of 530)

Dumbledore Lives!!!
I think that it is too easy for us to hate Snape (which is why some of us like Snape). He is not mean and cruel he acts mean and cruel, there is a difference. I again point to the things that he has done that really counts. 1. He threw himself between HRH and a werewolf, would LV, Bella or anyother DE do that? 2. He informed the Order that Sirius (his nemesis) was at the Minestry being attacked by LV. He didn't know that Harry was there, for all he knew Umbridge still had Harry in the forest. 3. He saved Harry from the Snake in CoS. 4. He saved Harry from Quirrel in SS. 5. He didn't hurt Harry at the end of HBP.

These acts are not the act of a double spy or of someone who is just inherently nasty.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 20, 2005 5:45 am (#80 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
There's something in DD's trust of Snape that seems "fishy". He trusts Snape yet doesn't give him the DADA job. According to Snape, it's because DD feared it would "tempt him in his old ways". Jo has said nothing else in an interview : "he thinks it would bring out the worst of him (Snape)". So why does he now give him the job ? Didn't he have any other option ? Couldn't Slughorn teach DADA ? I'm aware DD wanted Slughorn at all cost and didn't hesitate to manipulate him to get him (that's not such a nice aspect of DD IMO), but he knows the DADA position is probably jinxed. So he knows Snape will 99,9% leave at the end of the year. And it coincides with the fact DD nearly died by destructing a horcrux and Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco to carry out a terrible deed. Too many coincidences !

I have also noticed that Snape and DD uses the same arguments on some topics, giving the impression either they speak the truth or it's a rehearsed play. Here are the arguments I can think of without my book at hand :
- DD's trust is based on Snape's (fake) remorse
-DD's growing old, thus is less quick, keeping quiet all the horcrux issue

About the prophecy, I wonder how many people know Snape was the one to overhear it. I rather think DD, Snape, Trelawney and Aberforth were the only ones before Sybil spilt the beans to Harry. It could be to prevent the other member of the Order to distrust Snape, or to protect him for some righteous angers (from Remus, Sirius and who else).

But my main theory about DD's trust for Snape is related to the horcrux issue. No one in the order knows about them, only Snape is in position to know because he helped DD after the latter has destroyed one. And in the grave yard at the end of GoF, LV reminds his DE of the steps he took to prevent himself from a "mortal death". Big hint about the DE knowing about the horcruxes. If Snape had told about it to DD when he came to him, that would be a better reason for trust than "remorse". DD would have kept silent about the horcruxes not to blow Snape's cover with LV.

Hope I make sense !

- - - - - - - - - -
Stellar Hawk - Jul 20, 2005 6:08 am (#81 of 530)

Edited Jul 20, 2005 7:38 am
Hmm...

No one has yet commented on the fact that the look of utter revulsion Snape gives DD just before he kills him, is the exact same look he gives Harry right after Harry tells Snape to kill him. It seems that Snape was not going to kill Harry until that moment... and then he was getting ready to cast Avada Kedavra (perhaps such loathing and hatred is necessary in order to successfully cast it, and one must concentrate hard on such feelings, like happiness and casting a Patronus?) But Snape was not able to complete the spell...Buckbeak attacked him before he could let loose with the killing barrage of hatred. The point is, Snape was not going to kill Harry until Harry said so...

Could it be that Snape has no power to kill unless he is given permission? (If DD was saying "Please" as in, please finish me off, this holds true... and I doubt that DD was begging for his life. He may, however, have been begging Snape *not* to do it because then Snape would be condemning himself beyond hope of redemption... and DD didn't want to lose him.) I would point out that the Basilisk of CoS did not kill any of the students in Harry's 2nd year, merely petrified them. The only one who ever died from its gaze was Moaning Myrtle, and she had been thinking about death at the time. Perhaps the Basilisk only could kill her because she wanted to die.

Is this the reason DD trusts Snape? Because he has submitted to certain enchantments that limit his powers, and he cannot directly harm or kill anyone unless he is ordered to? (BTW DD tells Harry in OotP that Kreacher is "bound by the enchantments of his kind". Kreacher had no power to harm Sirius directly, only indirectly, and then only when Sirius was not careful about the orders he gave to his servant.)

At any rate I have always thought Snape was playing both sides for his own gain. One of the things I could never quite reconcile to the "Snape is a misunderstood goodguy" theory is his remark to Filch way back in SS. Regarding Fluffy and his injury, he says, "How are you supposed to watch all three heads at the same time?" It sounded to me like he was trying to get past Fluffy to steal the SS (if he were all that loyal to DD, he should have been complaining about Quirrel and not the dog... and why was Filch bandaging his leg instead of Pomfrey...unless Snape didn't want DD to find out about it!) But I don't think Snape had any intention of handing it over to Quirrell/LV... I think he wanted it for himself! Of course, he isn't going to tell Bellatrix that...

P.S. Good point about the Horcruxes, Septentrion, I had forgotten about that in GoF. Apparently the DE's know about at least one or two of them, but maybe not all of them. DD seemed interested in Slughorn's memory mainly to find out how many there were. (Edit: so he could destroy *all* of them, and thus eliminate the chance that LV would ever come back again.)

- - - - - - - - - -
Puck - Jul 20, 2005 6:33 am (#82 of 530)

Mommy, Queen of Everything
I like the idea of hium needing permission to kill. I diagree about the basilisk. I would have killed given a clear shot.

Dumbledore new that Snape would die if he broke Narcissa's bond, thus he wouldn't beg for his own life, but for Snape's and Malfoy's. His death would spare their lives.

- - - - - - - - - -
Verbina - Jul 20, 2005 6:44 am (#83 of 530)

Image by me. Base by Nefertiti at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It is very possible that a cleverly worded Unbreakable Vow, the Life Debt and the remorse could have been enough to make DD trust Snape.

We know that DD says there was remorse after the death of Lily and James.

We also know that there was a Life Debt owed to James from Snape.

The Unbreakable Vow part...not a vow to kill DD or anaything. But a Vow to protect Harry. Ever notice how Snape is always forced to protect Harry, even when he really doesn't want to. Protect him, not like him or help him. Just prevent others from killing him. That woudl explain why Snape simply kept deflecting Harry's spells and not allowing him to finish any of the unspeakable ones...to protect Harry. No matter how angry Snape gets, he will not harm him. Odd considering he had just killed the most powerful wizard in the world. Why not just kill Harry and get it over with? He says Voldy wants to do it himself, which is possible. But I don't think Snape can do anything to Harry.

I wonder though what happens to an Unbreakable Vow if one of those making the vow is dead? Does that stop the vow from having power?

- - - - - - - - - -
jesepi - Jul 20, 2005 7:05 am (#84 of 530)

Dumbledore Lives!!!
It doesn't make sense for the DE to know about the Horcruxes. I am sure that LV has taken many steps (not limited to just Horcruxes) to create immortality. If the DE know about them, then why would RAB make such a big deal about him being "the one" to find out?

DD would not make a Horcrux, it is so unspeakable the Hogwarts books will not even include it. A Horcrux would tarnish his character and he is the leader of "the good".

Why does Snape constantly help others if he only cares about himself? Also, I don't think DD would blindy trust someone due to just an unbreakable oath, he would also require that individual to be strong of character. JKR has not given us the real reason for the trust...yet.

- - - - - - - - - -
mollis - Jul 20, 2005 7:49 am (#85 of 530)

Edited by Jul 20, 2005 7:50 am
Okay, here's my take on why DD trusts Snape. For some reason, after hearing the first part of the prophesy Snape is allowed to run back to Voldy and tell him what he heard. Voldy stews about the prophecy for a year or so until deciding that Harry is the one he needs to kill and not Neville. Harry and Neville's parents may not have "thrice defied" him until then, who knows. But Harry was a year old when his parents were killed, so some significant time had passed. I think that when Voldy decided that Harry was the target that was what turned Snape. Snape quickly realized that James and Lily would protect Harry with their lives. And I do think Snape was in love with Lily, or at least felt an obligation to her strong enough to want to protect her. Snape knew Lily was going to be killed by Voldy, so he went to DD and told him that Voldy was going after the Potters.

The Potters knew Voldy was coming after them. How? I'm pretty sure that is wasn't usual for people to know that Voldy was coming to call. I think in light of this new info, DD told them after being told by Snape. The Potters had time to go into hiding with a secret keeper and everything. They would have been protected from Voldy if it hadn't been for Wormtail.

Snape took a huge risk in confiding this to DD. Snape was probably one of only a couple of people that Voldy told (if not the only one who knew). He probably would have been punished most severely, if Voldy hadn't been reduced to mist.

I'm not sure if this is enough to warrant that level of trust and confidence that DD shows Snape, but it seems quite possible to me. Anybody else agree?

- - - - - - - - - -
Stellar Hawk - Jul 20, 2005 8:02 am (#86 of 530)

"he wouldn't beg for his own life, but for Snape's and Malfoy's. His death would spare their lives." Excellent point, Puck, and tracks with what Dumbledore says in the cave when he is drinking the cup, something along the lines of "Don't hurt them, hurt me!"

"That woudl explain why Snape simply kept deflecting Harry's spells and not allowing him to finish any of the unspeakable ones...to protect Harry. No matter how angry Snape gets, he will not harm him. Odd considering he had just killed the most powerful wizard in the world. Why not just kill Harry and get it over with?"

Yes, I thought that about Snape cutting off the "unspeakables", but maybe he simply didn't want to get hit by one? I like your theory but I'm not totally sold on it yet. And that doesn't explain why Snape looks like he's about to cut loose with another AK when Buckbeak attacks. Perhaps Snape was bound by a Vow, but it broke when DD died (remember Barty Crouch was no longer bound to Winky when the elf was knocked unconscious). Or perhaps a direct order from Harry overrides such a vow (remember Harry's order to Kreacher?) If Snape is bound to do whatever Harry tells him in the event of DD's death, this would explain DD's reluctance to tell Harry the real reason he trusts Snape--it is a dangerous responsibility, and he fears Harry will abuse it if he finds out about it! *shrug* just a thought. I think DD says something somewhere about how such bonds can be abused... look at Draco for example! BTW it's funny Snape lectures Draco about "making elementary mistakes" then turns around and stuffs his foot down his throat by telling Draco about the Unbreakable Vow. He's as much as given Draco a nice handy leash!!! Not that Snape would ever admit to making huge mistakes himself from time to time...

If Snape took an Unbreakable Vow for Harry's sake, who was it with if DD was the bonder? Who was the third party...Harry's mother?

So what happens to someone who's bound by conflicting Unbreakable Vows? What happens if Snape has to choose between saving Harry or saving Draco? Or is he even still bound to Harry at this point, now that DD is dead... if the bonder dies, does the vow still stand? And if Harry gives a spur-of-the-moment order to kill him... does the order still stand into the next book...?

So many questions, so long to wait for answers!

- - - - - - - - - -
jesepi - Jul 20, 2005 8:24 am (#87 of 530)

Dumbledore Lives!!!
I didn't think Snape was getting ready to use the AK curse. Is everyone in agreeance that he was...that certainly changes things in my mind. I don't have the book in front of me, but if I recall correctly didn't snape just use a wand motion and a silent curse?

If he did the AK as a silent curse, would it have enough power to kill someone? If not, could this be Snape's way of showing Harry that he really didn't kill DD? His look of disgust and hatred could reflect his life and how annoying it would be to be on DD side and do all the right things but never have anyone trust in you or respect you.

Of course, he could have simply killed DD and finally was annoyed to the point that he didn't care about VD and decided to kill Harry too.

I agree that the questions posted in the forum is just a reflection of how truly gifted JKR really is.

- - - - - - - - - -
U No Poo - Jul 20, 2005 8:28 am (#88 of 530)

I have one word for you guys: PENSIEVE!!!

(sorry if this was posted already, haven't read through all 80+ posts yet.)

DD has a great tool for whether or not to trust Snape in the pensieve. Maybe DD had Snape give him the memories of how much of the prophecy that he heard, what he told Voldemort, and what Voldemort told Snape to do for him? I think in the 7th Book, Harry might be given the pensieve from DD and be able to learn about these memories....

Also, if there was an Unbreakable Vow done at any time between the 2, wouldn't it make sense for Hagrid to be the witness/binder of the vow? Maybe his title of Keeper of the Keys at Hogwarts means more than we know about. Hagrid and Snape seem to be the two that DD defends unconditionally throughout the series.

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Jul 20, 2005 8:36 am (#89 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Oh, Wandless Wizard! The romantic in me loves your Snape/Lily theory and I enjoyed reading your senario. That's kind of how I've put it together in my mind too.

To the doubters out there, I just simply ask, why couldn't Snape have cared for Lily? How many of us really saw it coming that Tonks and Lupin had a major thing for each other? Why can't Snape love? Is he so rotten and one-sided that he is not capable of normal human emotions? I think that there is an emotional depth there that we have not been allowed to see (for obvious reasons).

Remember the other very important Snape memories Harry sees? Snape's a toddler, crying and vulnerable watching his mother being emotionally and verbally (and probably physically) abused by his crooked nosed muggle father. Why would we have this tidbit of information about Snape? Why would JKR want us to experience this sad memory of Snape as little child, crying, helpless and vulnerable? Yes, it is to show why he later turns to the DE's because a good lot of them seem to have bad muggle-father issues. (Bit of joke) But is this something authors show if they want to make a character a complete villian? We see Snape as a lonely greasy teenager in his bedroom. It's sad. You get the feeling he's alone not because he wants to be. The feeling I always got from this passage was pity and sadness for Snape. Am I alone in this? I bet I'm not. There is more emotion and depth to Snape's character that we've only been given a glimpse into.

Something else about DD and why he might have trusted Snape. When Lupin says that he and Tonks shouldn't discuss their love since DD has just died. McGonagall then says that DD out of all people would've been happy to know that there was more love in the world...is this a little clue into the big question at hand here...DD knew Snape loved Lily, her death because of his actions (LV didn't keep his promise to Snape not to kill Lily)was the unbearable regret that turned him to DD and the good side. A reason like this would be completely unwavering to DD.

- - - - - - - - - -
Foundation Layer - Jul 20, 2005 9:23 am (#90 of 530)

Engineering Student
I was sure that Snape was an active member of the DEs until I read this topic. Now you guys have opened my mind to a whole new range of possibilities.

I am loving the whole Snape and Lily idea and I agree with the user who pointed out that the *blink* is probably a vital piece of a further sub plot that intertwines with the main one.

but I digress.

DD is dead killed by Snape

Snape has taken the Unbreakable Vow (UV). I wondered as the the mechanics of how his worked and have decided on the following: My first thought was that the spell decided whether you really meant what you said (I got the look of surprise on Bellatrix's and the flame from the wand the wrong way around). After getting the correct order of events from page 40/41 the right way around I now am certain it just holds the participant to what they have said they will do.

Snape was in on the plan to kill DD from day one so he knows what Draco is up to.

Snape has argued with DD over something (I need a page reference as I can’t find it or remember the exacts of it). However I think that we never established what is was about therefore I will assume that it is Draco and the UV. I cannot see DD bothering to argue about Snape having made the vow it seems very out of character he normally just accepts these things and takes them in his stride. So I think Snape started the argument by disagreeing with DD.

In the final battle DD pleads with Snape. I have NEVER seen anything in DD character that says he is afraid of death or that he would plead for his life. It has been said many times thought the series by DD that death is not to be feared like LV fears it. It is also DD belief that dying for a worthy cause is ok.

Here are my beliefs on the matter: DD knew his life was drawing to a close, his time was running out and I think he knew this war would not end in his lifetime. I believe that the look of hate in Snapes face was that of himself rather than DD By dying he has now put Snape in a position of absolute trust with LV. LV does not understand the idea of sacrifice like DD. By dying he has saved Draco from something worse than death

I have a few more thoughts on this matter but work calls so in the words of a certain Austrian movie star “I’ll be back”

- - - - - - - - - -
Johnabus jolly - Jul 20, 2005 10:01 am (#91 of 530)

While reading the book, I thought it odd how often Slughorn commented on Harry's ability in potions and compared it to Lily's. Obviously it was Snape who deserved most of this credit. But, I was under the impression Lily was the charms expert, never before had I heard of her skill in potions. How could this be though? I believe that Lily befriended Snape in his lonliness and got closer to him than anyone else. The least Snape coud do in return was to aide her in her potionmaking in class. Its completely possible they sat together in class. Now noone but Harrys class knew of his new skill in potions and I doubt he tested very well in it. The same could be true of Lily, that with Snapes help she appeared bright but in fact tested poorly which kept her from being recognized. "The blink" could be explaining her surprise at Snape lashing out at her. After that their friendship would have dissolved and Snape was back to his lonely reclusive world, hence his worst memory. Haha its a long stretch I know, but with Jk......

- - - - - - - - - -
loony - Jul 20, 2005 10:39 am (#92 of 530)

Edited by Jul 20, 2005 10:39 am
Oh, I really like the theory about Snape&Lily and why Voldemort wanted to leave her alive - this might indeed be the reason DD later trusted Snape abour his regret. There is of course the possibility that Griffindor wasn´t with Slytherin in Potions, but as we saw when it comes to NEWT level even all 4 houses are together.

An idea why DD never gave Snape DADA lessons before: DD knew that Voldemort would expect from Snape, as a DADA teacher, to find new DE. Now in HBP, DD wanted Harry (and Ron?) to be able to take Potions, which wouldn´t happen with Snape as a teacher and maybe DD did so that Snape could give a "proof" to Voldemort that DD trusts him.

When I think about Snapes "worst" memories and how he keeps helping/saving Harry and I´m quite sure DD would NEVER beg for life I doubt strongly that Snape is really under Voldemorts command.

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 20, 2005 10:42 am (#93 of 530)

Wandless Wizard, in that interview, JKR says the difference between Lily dying and James, regarding the second chance was that James went in guns blazing, he wasn't offered a chance to live. Lily was given the option but chose to die to save Harry. What she's saying is that her bravery and sacrifice is different in a way to James' because of that chance to give him up. So, in effect, that sacrifice has everything to do with what happened after the A.K. It wasn't solely bravery or sacrifice it was the option presented by LV.

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Jul 20, 2005 11:00 am (#94 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
I don't mean to answer for Wandless Wizard and I hope I'm not stepping on toes, but I want to say that you are right, Very Sirius. It's amazing to me that LV gave Lily an option. Isn't that extremely strange? LV and all his DE's murder and maim left and right to the point where people are afraid to even say LV's name. LV wasn't going to kill Lily until she gave her life to protect Harry. How many supremely evil Dark Lords would show "mercy" to a victim like that? That would be the only time one could imagine. Why did that happen?

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Jul 20, 2005 11:14 am (#95 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Or LV is soooo evil, which he is, that to offer a mother a "choice" like that to watch her son die and be able to live afterwards, is most definitely more evil. LV would enjoy that very much, I think. To give a mother the option of living, but have to watch her baby murdered. Ooooh. It's so very evil it makes me sick. *sniff sniff* What a terrible position for a mother to be in. What parent wouldn't give their own life to save their child's?

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 20, 2005 11:16 am (#96 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
4days and 94 posts later and we're still racking our brain with wild theories, and so will we until book 7, lol.

One of my theory of why DD trusted Snape is that Snape told him about the horcruxes, but it could be as well because after overhearing the prophecy and reporting it to LV, Snape was the one to tip off DD about the fact LV was going after the Potters. This would be better than "remorse".

Alas, we have an example of misplaced trust from DD : Quirrel. He put on one of the obstacles to the chamber with the stone, which denotes a certain level of trust from DD. And Snape seemed to be the only one to have watched him closely.

edit : another hypothesis of why DD trusted Snape : if Snape never told LV who the seer who made the prophecy was. After all, Trelawney was never seen in grave danger.

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Jul 20, 2005 1:19 pm (#97 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Someone has pointed out that Snape never mentioned Lily while reproving Harry in classroom. I think this is a very good point in the Snape-Lily theory.

I don't believe Snape was going to use an AK to Harry. That would be foolish, he had just said to the DE to leave him for LV, and had protected him from pronouncing the unforgivable courses. I think he was so angry, after being called coward (and again, here Snape mentions James), that he was going to use maybe something like the "flash of light" that gashes James' face in "Snape's worst memory".

I find also the reaction of Hagrid, after DD's death, very interesting. The whole presence of Hagrid in the Snape-DD relationship is interesting. They're the two people DD trusted above all. Also before the lightning-struck tower scene, DD asked Harry to call Snape more than once.

- - - - - - - - - -
mollis - Jul 20, 2005 2:10 pm (#98 of 530)

Edited by Jul 20, 2005 3:05 pm
Ohh! Excellent point septentrion! I hadn't thought about Trelawney. Do you suppose that Snape knew who she was though? He'd seen her, but probably didn't know her name. And I figure that she was immediately hired by DD and moved into Hogwarts. And Hogwarts used to be the safest place to be, so she wasn't really in any danger. Especially since she never used to leave her tower.

So I don't know. That alone probably wouldn't be enough to gain DD's trust. I think I'm still leaning towards Snape being the one who warns DD of Voldy's plan to attack the Potters.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 20, 2005 2:16 pm (#99 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Thanks Mollis !

You know, I only have theories which aren't exclusive. It may be several things, not just one, which lead DD to trust Snape. Your idea makes much sense, and I like mine too about the horcruxes. We still have at least 2 years to specalute wildly !

- - - - - - - - - -
Nymphadora Lupin - Jul 20, 2005 2:43 pm (#100 of 530)

You know, with all these wonderful theories about a possible Lily/Snape relationship, I'm starting to rethink a specific quote from Petunia from OotP that always bothered me. When she reveals that she knew all about Dementors because she overheard "that awful boy" telling Lily about them.

Now, crazy as this one might sound, what if Petunia overheard SNAPE and not JAMES as we are led to believe? Adds a nice twist, doesn't it? Plus, this would explain nicely the previous correspondence between DD and Petunia; DD was simply writing Petunia to check up with Snape's story that he had some sort of friendly relationship with Lily. Snape probably said something along the lines of, "And if you don't believe me, go and ask her muggle sister, I was at the house."???

Just another log to throw on the already flaming pile of Snape theories...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 101 to 150)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:19 am

mollis - Jul 20, 2005 3:09 pm (#101 of 530)
You are very welcome septentrion!

I'm still not sold on the horcrux idea. I just can't see Voldy telling anyone that little tidbit of information. I'm guessing that R.A.B. was spying and found out on his own and wasn't supposed to know. As DD said, Voldy has no friends. He doesn't really trust anyone.

But yes, it certainly seems like I've got 2 years to either be proven wrong or converted to a better theory.

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Jul 20, 2005 4:13 pm (#102 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Wow! Brilliant! I sure can imagine teenage Snape being described as that "awful boy," couldn't you? Hee hee!

- - - - - - - - - -
Foundation Layer - Jul 20, 2005 5:06 pm (#103 of 530)

Engineering Student
while I can see why many people think that Snape was able to hear the whole prophecy I have my doubts. Trelawney would not have know what was going on while she was in the trance so the barman could have accosted Snape without making a massive amount of noise owing to his suprising Snape. As Snape realised what was happening he fought back, as the prophecy was finished, and then the door flew open. This theory would fit more with taking DD memory as true.

Secondly on the theory of Snape making an unbreakable Vow to DD: Wouldn't Snape have died the second he betrayed DD?

- - - - - - - - - -
Tyreseus Snape - Jul 20, 2005 5:18 pm (#104 of 530)

Professor of Ancient Languages
But he didn't betray DD ....

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 20, 2005 5:23 pm (#105 of 530)

Well perhaps LV promised Snape that he could "have Lily" once James was out of the picture!

- - - - - - - - - -
P.O.P. - Jul 20, 2005 5:35 pm (#106 of 530)

Here's my theory on why DD trusted Snape, which I have posted on the Horcrux thread as well: Snape helped LV make the potion for the horcrux that was in the basin, and the acual potion WAS the horcrux, the locket was a distractor. When Snape went to the good side, he told DD about the horcrux, and at some point they made the plan for DD to drink the horcrux and be killed, in order to destroy the horcrux. Snape telling DD about the horcrux was the reason DD trusted him implicitly. Another member noticed that the fact that DD's death was a plan could explain why Fawkes didn't show up to rescue DD; it was meant to happen.

The note seems to fit DD very well, and RAB could be some nickname LV would recognize from his Hogwarts days; maybe even something LV called DD behind his back, after all, we know Tom wasn't DD's favorite student, which he knew. JKR kind of faked us out with the half-blood prince, since we couldn't know before HBP that Snape's mother's last name was prince, I'm not so sure she would hand us Regalus as RAB.

- - - - - - - - - -
Saralinda Again - Jul 20, 2005 5:39 pm (#107 of 530)

My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Stellar Hawk, some 20 posts back: If Snape took an Unbreakable Vow for Harry's sake, who was it with if DD was the bonder? Who was the third party...Harry's mother?

My money's on Aberforth. Snape certainly used to spend time at the Hog's Head. Maybe for all he knew it was "the bar man," and not Albus's brother. Or maybe Aberforth's a power in the Order, but living as covert a life as Snapey.

OMG, I called him Snapey. I've snapped ...

ô¿ô S/K

- - - - - - - - - -
The Wandless Wizard - Jul 20, 2005 9:21 pm (#108 of 530)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 20, 2005 9:22 pm
To all who said they enjoyed reading my Snape loves Lily theory, I am glad. Thanks. I'll have to say, I stole just about every idea from someone else though. I just put them together.

Very Sirius- I am not sure I understand your point in post #93. I agree with every thing you wrote there. JKR was making the point that what Lily did was very brave, and possibly braver than James who was going to die no matter what. It was very important to the story because it gave Harry his protection. However, it still doesn't explain why Lily was given a chance to live. If Voldemort was going to kill only one of James and Lily, wouldn't he kill the muggle-born? JKR tells us that Voldemort was planning to kill James, but not Lily. It has nothing to do with how they reacted. I find that curious.

Valfunde- You didn't step on my toes at all in post #94. In fact, you said pretty much what I just said above. I appreciate it when people take up my theories when I am not around to do so. So no toe stepping at all.

Finally, to all who have pointed out that Snape wouldn't always be in the same class for Potions and Snape probably wouldn't be in the slug club, I agree and disagree. I agree that Snape and Lily didn't have all their Potions classes together. however, as the same teacher teaches the classes, they probably go at the same pace. SO maybe they met when they had the same class in their 2nd year and became "study buddies" after that. Since they were probably the best Potions students at the school (from what we have seen from Snape's HBP book and Slughorn's praise of Lily), they might have wanted to keep working with each other. We know their was a Charms club (one of the people trying out for Gryffindor keeper in OotP said Charms club would come first), so maybe there is a Potions club and they were in it together. The point is their mutual skill at potions would have caused them to spend time together.

As for the Slug Club, Snape is not social but he is ambitious. Snape is a Slytherin which suggests he is ambitious. The Slug Club would have appealed to him, not from a social stand-point, but for a chance to get a leg up in his career. Slughorn would have wanted him based on sheer talent. If the guy was improving the potions in the book while still in school, he had some serious talent. He is also just a plain powerful wizard. He might even have had some connections through his mother. So while we don't know for sure that Snape was in the Slug Club, it is possible. Slughorn could be the one to let us know that Snape had feelings for Lily. "It's funny, harry. I thought Snape would have treated you more kindly. I mean, the way he always looked at your mother, I would have thought..."

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 20, 2005 9:42 pm (#109 of 530)

I had that same feeling about "that awful boy" but knowing aunt Pet, frankly that could have been anyone. It's a good idea, but I have to shoot it down. Snape called Lily a mudblood, when Harrys sees him in the pensieve, long before she was dating James. I don't think they were friends once and having grand conversations or he was trying to get to know her, then one day suddenly turns and calls her some evil name. Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Wandless Wizard, I was trying to figure out what JKR says in her interview. Apparently, if I understand this correctly, because Lily was given the option, for some reason we don't know about yet, this is what caused the A.K. to rebound. James was just as brave, but without that option that sealed the deal. So, it was her love, her bravery and the fact that LV gave her an option to live or die and she decided that Harry was more important than life, that LV wasn't counting on, as he doesn't get that anyone would choose to sacrifice yourself, the ultimate selfish act of love, over death.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Jul 20, 2005 10:02 pm (#110 of 530)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I haven't read every single post, however, you do have some fascinating ideas. I still, deep down, harbor some hope that yes, Snape is still loyal to DD and that he isn't dead. It wasn't a true Avada Kedavra spell somehow. But this passage is one that gives me most hope...

"Somebody else had spoken Snape's name, quite softly. 'Severus..."

"The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening."

In view of the sentences just before this, I believe that we are still not getting the entire relationship.

Call it my endless optimism to find the good in people, but I think that either Harry is hearing DD communicate with Snape in a way that the others could not hear or sense, or that Snape decides only at this point, when DD calls him, where his loyalties lie and it is at this point decides to AK him. If the latter is true then I think Snape will, in the very end do something that will help Harry conquer.

- - - - - - - - - -
Susanne W - Jul 20, 2005 10:08 pm (#111 of 530)

Can two Unbreakable vows cancel each other out? What if Snape had taken two vows. The one we know about with Narcissa and the one a lot of us suspect with Dumbledore and they couldn't both be kept. What happens then?

Another thought... what if Snape knows this is all a big game of Chess. (I want so badly to trust Snape because DD did.) He knows that sacrifices must be made to win the battle (just like Ron knows that in SS). And/Or he needs to do something drastic to remain in LV's inner circle.

Just a few thoughts. I've a great deal to think about. And am thoroughly enjoying speculating on all the possibilities.

S

- - - - - - - - - -
Dragonesss - Jul 21, 2005 12:32 am (#112 of 530)

Edited by Jul 21, 2005 1:05 am
The Wandless Wizard, I'm with you on Snape loves Lily theory, even some people believe us being crazy fo it. To prove that they are absolutely right I suggest that Snape tricked LV into making the Unbreakable Vow not to kill Lily. Therefore Harry has nothing to do with LV downfall, it’s killing Lily almost finished him off. Half-dead Voldemort (or 1/7 dead, if you pleased) still tries to kill Harry, but simply didn’t have enough power. That leaves Harry to be quite ordinary boy, exactly what Snape had been trying to explain to him for 6 years!

- - - - - - - - - -
Weeny Owl - Jul 21, 2005 2:07 am (#113 of 530)

I had that same feeling about "that awful boy" but knowing aunt Pet, frankly that could have been anyone. It's a good idea, but I have to shoot it down. Snape called Lily a mudblood, when Harrys sees him in the pensieve, long before she was dating James. I don't think they were friends once and having grand conversations or he was trying to get to know her, then one day suddenly turns and calls her some evil name. Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't necessarily have to be that Snape suddenly called her a Mudblood. It could be that they knew each other, perhaps because of mutual Muggle relatives, perhaps because of something else, but that Lily, being the popular girl she was and with it being such a busy year with O.W.L.s, didn't have time to spend with him, so he took his resentment and frustration with the situation the Marauders and with her "abandoning" him and just said the most hurtful thing he could think of.

Or not. That is just an idea, and until we hear from JKR on what exactly happened in that Pensieve scene and why, then it's just something to kick around.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 21, 2005 2:15 am (#114 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Jo has said in the second part of her interview with TLC and Mugglenet that she doesn't want to shut down some lines of speculation such as "was DD planning to die ?" or "was DD's death a set-up ?" (these aren't exact quotes). in short, she doesn't want us to stop speculating about why DD trusted Snape. The next two years are going to be very long indeed.

- - - - - - - - - -
EbonyRebel - Jul 21, 2005 3:20 am (#115 of 530)

It's interesting that so many of you still think Snape is on the side of good - certainly it would be a shame if Rowling made him into a mere black and white character, i.e. he's a bully, therefore he must be evil. It would be quite a disappointment.

I therefore hope for better things. I also believe that Snape is still on the side of good - the only difference now is that instead of one person knowing the exact reason that he rejoined the good side, there is now none. Dumbledore (I believe) never confided the real reason he trusted Snape to anyone, not even McGonagall. I think that he and Dumbledore planned this extremely deep cover. It is possible that they did make some kind of pact, should a situation ever arise. It is my belief that Dumbledore knew he was going to die anyway - he passed all his memories re.Voldemort to Harry, preparing him. Also, DD told us that when he came back from one of his missions, he was very weak, but Snape healed him. It is therefore possible that Snape (with his practised eye) realised by looking at him on the tower that DD wouldn't survive anyway, and that rather than risk his cover by pointless attempts at healing DD, it would be wiser (and perhaps, like I said, planned between himself and DD) to kill Dumbledore, thus accomplishing three things - keeping his cover as Death Eater, saving Draco, and of course saving Snape's own skin.

- - - - - - - - - -
Foundation Layer - Jul 21, 2005 3:33 am (#116 of 530)

Engineering Student
Hmm and DD was desperate to get to Snape anyway, i know he was the potions master, but is that the only reason? Did DD know that he was finished too and wanted to save Snape?

- - - - - - - - - -
jesepi - Jul 21, 2005 7:22 am (#117 of 530)

Dumbledore Lives!!!
DD wasn't exactly on his last leg when he was asking for Snape. He was strong enough to ride a broom stick to the highest tower. Also, think about this. When the DA stuns, freezes, and uses other jinxes on DE the affects always wear off after a short time. Harry stuns one of the DE chasing after Snape, and he recovers rather quickly. I don't think that DD had to die for the spell to wear off as some have suggeste, but I Do think that he had to sustain the spell for the entire duration that they were on the tower. Even as he is slipping down the wall (which Snapes AK miraculously catapaults him over)he obviously is strong enough to maintain the spell on Harry so that he doesn't get involved.

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 21, 2005 8:03 am (#118 of 530)

Is it possible that the Evans family knew the Snape Muggle-branch of the family--Tobias and Petunia's hatred of James came from things she heard from the Snapes--it's far off but The Evans family was kinda pleased their daughter was a witch and Petunia wasn't happy. overheard conversations and knew a lot about what happens in the wizard world even if she played dumb for her husband.

MY bet is that Snape will be at Harry's side when Voldemort is finally defeated and there will be some sort of handshake or reconcilliation between these two as Snape has the job to explain things to Harry....the why's and hows...

- - - - - - - - - -
Spursgirl79 - Jul 21, 2005 9:34 am (#119 of 530)

Even if DD was not about to die from the potion he had drunk, Snape HAD to kill him immediately. Remember there were a lot of other Death Eaters up at the tower... If Draco lost his nerve about completing his mission i.e. killing DD, which he had, if any one of the other Death Eaters there stood forward and performed the AK curse himself, Snape would have broken his Unbreakable Vow in not taking over Draco's task, and so he would also have died. Hence DD asking for Snape immediately when it was clear that the Death Eaters had arrived at Hogwarts... he knew Snape had to keep near him to ensure that it was he who performed the killing and no other Death Eater (I am sure many of them would have relished the chance to perform the curse themselves).

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 21, 2005 10:29 am (#120 of 530)

I can truly appreciate that people want to believe people are genuinely good or misguided. Sometimes that's the case. I personally don't think it's the case with Snape or Malfoy. Although Malfoy lowered his wand and probably wouldn't have killed DD, his intentions are very clear. His actions were very clear and if there's redemption for him at some point, it'll be through his choices and from what I've seen of him, he's too surrounded by people who are enveloped in the dark arts and wouldn't allow that to happen. As for Snape, I assumed he was one who that did happen for but I can't, personally, see how it's the the case now. Nonetheless, I appreciate the optimism i'm seeing here and would like to think you're right, but I just don't see that now.

- - - - - - - - - -
Stellar Hawk - Jul 21, 2005 10:38 am (#121 of 530)

I don't believe Snape was going to use an AK to Harry. That would be foolish, he had just said to the DE to leave him for LV, and had protected him from pronouncing the unforgivable courses. I think he was so angry, after being called coward (and again, here Snape mentions James), that he was going to use maybe something like the "flash of light" that gashes James' face in "Snape's worst memory".

D'oh! Good point, Eunice. I was jumping to conclusions! Snape might have been about to cast anything... and he was furious at being called a coward... maybe he was only going to hurt Harry with some sort of knee-jerk reaction.

- - - - - - - - - -
lurking-one - Jul 21, 2005 12:19 pm (#122 of 530)

Verbina wrote in post #38 "There is one thing though that supports the trust Dumbledore had in Snape...as far as we know, Snape never let on where the Order was housed. Yes, I know it was a secret with Dumbledore as a secret keeper making it so no one could tell where the order was at.

But...you would think that the house of Black would be well known to the purebloods and to the DEs. Especially somoene like Lucius since he was married to a relative. It wasn't always secret from people. So Snape could have told someone something to give them a clue where it was. I only wish I knew more of how the secret keeping actually works here. Because if it made the house invisible, then someone in the wizarding world that knew the Black house would find it odd that the house was gone suddenly, wouldn't they?"

I think, trying to recall how Flitwick stated the Secret-Keeper Charm worked, was that only the people involved were kept hidden. I think I remember him saying that, with the Charm in place, Voldemort could have looked in the Potter's house window, and not see them. Would it work the same way for the Black House? People could see it, if they knew where it was in the first place, but could not see the Order members using it?

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 21, 2005 12:22 pm (#123 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Just a sliver of hope : Jo has celebrated Snape's birthday on her website, as well as Draco's. We've seen that Draco, however a git he is, has a heart (he loves his family). Does it mean there's hope for Snape ? And in more of one year on her site, we've never seen DD's birthday (or had I missed something ?). Will Draco and Snape survive after all ?

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Jul 21, 2005 12:33 pm (#124 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
I wish your words come true, septentrion... though I think Snape will die, almost surely. Don't know about Draco, however. I guess he'll turn out good sooner or later. I don't think he is a DE at his core. Draco's vicious, but he has proved himself no murderer.

On the other hand people who protect Harry seem to die, unfortunately...

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2005 12:38 pm (#125 of 530)

Just a thought for the number of people who have mentioned the "hate and revulsion" on Snape's face as he AKs DD, as evidence that he's a thoroughgoing DE. I was just re-reading The Cave chapter and after spending almost a page arguing with DD about whether or not Harry would really do what DD said regardless how awful the results, Harry has to force DD to drink all of the liquid in the basin. As he starts to do this, JKR describes Harry as filled with "hatred" for himself and "replused" by his own actions while having to obey DD's command. So if we'd had a 3rd pov at that point, wouldn't Harry's expression been one of hatred and revulsion -- just like Snape when he AKs DD?

Just wanted to point that out for those who are convinced Snape's on LV's side. If we hadn't seen DD in The Cave insisting to Harry that he be willing to follow any command of DD's, then Harry might have looked pretty awful for a short while, during the time he's forcing that liquid down DD's throat. Then when I think of Hagrid overhearing Snape and DD arguing and DD insisting that Snape's got to do something, I'm starting to think DD was putting both Snape and Harry in the position of doing something really repulsive to them, and insiting that they both be willing to do it.

- - - - - - - - - -
Foundation Layer - Jul 21, 2005 12:39 pm (#126 of 530)

Engineering Student
I think Malfoy is doing what Regulus Black did ie botteling it. Perhaps we might see and interesting mirror thrown up here by JKR between the two of them.

I think there is a lot more to the Snape DD puzzel than we know. There is something else that we are missing. If we could establish for certain whether or not Snape heard the full phrophecy I think we could be fairly certain that it was the reason DD trusted Snape.

edit - the post actually makes sense now Smile

Wynnleaf - you have managed to provid an example for what alot of us have been saying, good work. Now all we have to do is balance it against DD "When I make a mistake I make it huge" comment

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 21, 2005 12:41 pm (#127 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Oh Wynnleaf, that's a pretty good way to say what I tried to put into word ! I had forgotten about the description of Harry's feelings in the cave. What a parallel between Snape and Harry. I can't wait for their next encounter !

- - - - - - - - - -
jesepi - Jul 21, 2005 12:56 pm (#128 of 530)

Dumbledore Lives!!!
Just my opinion, but I am pretty certain that Snape only heard the first half of the prophecy. DD makes note of that on several occasions, and although he is tricky at times, I can't ever recall him lying.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Jul 21, 2005 2:03 pm (#129 of 530)

I think Dumbledore trusted Snape because Snape had told him about the Horcrux. At the rebirthing Voldemort said "And I ask myself,but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They,who knew the steps I took,long ago,to guard myself against mortal death."

I think Snape told Dumbledore about the horcrux but he didn't know how many there were.This is what Dumbledore needed to confirm through Slughorns memory.

- - - - - - - - - -
aceanablack - Jul 21, 2005 5:39 pm (#130 of 530)

Yes, but isn't it true that Snape made an unbreakable vow w/ Draco's mother that he'd carry out Draco's mission if Draco couldn't. Killing Dumbledore was obviously the mission, and Draco hesitated so Snape was forced to do it!

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 21, 2005 7:25 pm (#131 of 530)

M. Pomfrey, you bring up a good point. And although I think the significance of Snape being the one who overheard the prophecy has deep meaning that we may come to find i'm right or wrong on, I like your theory as well.

I know people here are getting hung up on whether or not DD lied to Harry. I don't think he would purposefully lie to him, either. I do think, however, he would make mistakes, and by protecting Snape he might have been making one. Early on in the book, Harry didn't know Snape was the one who overheard the prophecy, DD may have told Harry an untruth to protect that. I don't know. I agree, DD wouldn't outright lie, but he might do something seemingly like it, for reasons we don't know yet.

- - - - - - - - - -
David Olson - Jul 21, 2005 8:42 pm (#132 of 530)

wynnleaf wrote...

"Just a thought for the number of people who have mentioned the "hate and revulsion" on Snape's face as he AKs DD, as evidence that he's a thoroughgoing DE. I was just re-reading The Cave chapter... JKR describes Harry as filled with "hatred" for himself and "replused" by his own actions while having to obey DD's command. ... just like Snape when he AKs DD?"

That pretty much cinches it for me. The literary parallel is too good to have been written by accident. I have no reasonable doubt left: Snape was acting on DD's orders.

I still don't know whether DD is dead or not. Because of DD's burned hand, I can't help but make a parallel to when Fawkes went up in flames. And after the fall his glasses were merely askew. He looked like he was sleeping, unlike other AK victims. It just doesn't fit! But still... In any case, the scene with Snape was clearly planned beforehand; the entire book points that way. Even in the beginning, DD sounded like he knew he was making one last visit to the Dursley's. He knew Draco was trying to kill him, and he knew the Dark Mark over the tower was a lure. He also knew that Snape the spy --- utterly out in the cold --- was more important than his own presence. And with DD apparently out of the way, Voldemort would be overconfident, arrogant, and prone to error.

And no match for Harry.

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 21, 2005 9:12 pm (#133 of 530)

I was reading that part again, in the cave and noticed that DD says to Harry, "Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes."

Either he's wrong, lying or he's correct and Snape has no knowledge of them, thus had no ability to inform DD of them.

And on another note, the things DD says while drinking are quite curious.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 21, 2005 11:13 pm (#134 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Very Sirius, I was about to bring that sentence in the discussion ! If LV believes to be the only one to know about the Horcruxes, what did he tell the DE about the "steps he took against mortal death" ? And DD don't say "LV is the only one" but "believes" he's the only one to know. So Snape may very well know.

It'd be interesting to know what was the relationship between Regulus Black and Snape, assuming it was Regulus who took the horcrux in the cave, and if it was Regulus who told Snape about the Horcruxes.

- - - - - - - - - -
angel z - Jul 22, 2005 2:44 am (#135 of 530)

I hope this is in the right place and has'nt previously been mentioned. Does'nt Lupin tell Harry that Levicorpus "had great vogue" during his day at school. This was one of Snape's HBP inventions so how did it become so widely used if Snape was such a loner at school. He must have imparted some of his information to someone else. Which leads me to the other clue i.e Lilly being such a natural at potions? was she,? or was she rather closer to Snape than we know. I dont think there was ever anything romantic on her part but its more evidence in the reason DD trusted Snape. DD believes that love is the stongest magic and that Volde does not understand this!! angel.z

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Jul 22, 2005 5:02 am (#136 of 530)

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
As far as Dumbledore's mistake is concerned, I believe it to be not informing other Order members of why Snape is good. They will judge him for what he did (or thought or pretended he did..) and probably pursue him, jeopardizing the careful plans Dumbledore has made. I think he has succumbed to his weakness of being detached once again - He is so old, wise and intelligent, and I think he often fails to fully recognize the humanness of those around him, particularly pertaining to feelings such as embarrassment, anger, jealousy, fear, or resentment. Through a long life, Dumbledore has reasched a stage where none of these really affect him much, he recognizes the feelings in himself if and when they occur, but he does not allow them to impact his course of action. I do not think he fully takes into account that most others are unwilling or unable to do the same.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ant Hem - Jul 22, 2005 5:17 am (#137 of 530)

I've posted this as part of the Horcrux thread, but I think it has to go here too.

I think Dumbledore trusted Snape because he delivered 1/7 of Voldemort's soul to him (possibly in the ring, though I'm less sure of that aspect).

To bring Voldemort back, others would need to know about the Horcruxes. Voldemort would not trust anyone enough to tell them about all of them. But what if Snape was entrusted with one, Lucius with another, R.A.B. with a third, etc.? Nagini is his backup plan in case none of them work out.

Now they may or may not have known what the Horcruxes were (the evidence suggests R.A.B. and Severus did, but Lucius did not, although it may be that the two worked it out at a later date), but if Snape knew about one of them and actually handed it to Dumbledore, that would be a very good reason to trust him. The main drawback with this theory is just how long it took Dumbledore to work out how to destroy the ring Horcrux. I'm sure there are other problems with the theory too, but that's what a forum is for...

EDIT: I see Hollywand and The Wandless Wizard have already had some similar ideas about Death Eaters as guardians of the Horcruxes over on the R.A.B. thread - apologies for posting before I'd caught up with all the threads (one day off and so much appears...)

- - - - - - - - - -
Sadie - Jul 22, 2005 5:54 am (#138 of 530)

Something that has been bothering me. When Harry and Dumbledore return from the Cave and Dumbledore is so weak, he asks Harry to get Snape. Talk to no one..just get Snape. Now I can understand (and I believe) Snape killed Dumbledore because he had to as Dumbledore made him promise (I can't see DD begging for his life and I also noticed the Hate/revulsion on Harry's face just earlier and drew the parallel) but why was Dumbledore wanting Snape BEFORE he faced Draco? Before Snape would have to kill him? Did he know he was dying and needed Snape to finish him off? I just can't figure this part out.

- - - - - - - - - -
Lorna Brown - Jul 22, 2005 5:57 am (#139 of 530)

Illustrator in London
Whilst I am not sure whether Dumbledore would ever make someone take an unbreakable vow, perhaps Snape made one saying that he would protect Harry. That would surely put him on the side of good, and also perhaps explain his actions in PS and throughout the other books where he has come to Harry's aid even though he seems to despise the boy. Any thoughts?

- - - - - - - - - -
Ant Hem - Jul 22, 2005 6:07 am (#140 of 530)

If Snape helped make the potion in the basin (rather than knowing about the ring, as in my previous post!), or even if he knew of it, Dumbledore would know that Snape could undo some of its effects and have an antidote ready if one existed (or something to ease the pain if no antidote exists?). Of course, Snape knowing about the potion but not telling all of the details to Dumbledore so he had an antidote/pain relief with him already would suggest that maybe Dumbledore was wrong to trust Snape after all.

- - - - - - - - - -
Lorna Brown - Jul 22, 2005 7:00 am (#141 of 530)

Illustrator in London
Another explanation for Snape's hand twitching when making the unbreakable vow with Cissy is because, if we presume that he DID know the task Draco was set, he would realise that he would have to try and kill DD- that's DD the ONLY person that Voldemort was afriad of, possibly the most powerfull wizard around at the time. Of course he would think twice about starting a duel with DD because it would more likely than not end up with Snape dead. Another question that has been bugging me is why didn't Voldemort come and kill DD himself? I feel like there must be something more to the fact that he hasn't tried to kill DD than just because DD is a powerful wizard. Does Voldemort feel endebted to DD in some way because DD saved him from the orphanage? (Although a very clever plan to force Draco, someone he knew DD wouldn't attack back to do the dirty work. AND I've changed my mind about the unbreakable vow between Snape and DD- I don't think that DD would approve of this kind of promise. It doesn't allow for 'freewill' or choosing to do the right thing after it has been made.

- - - - - - - - - -
Sconie Girl - Jul 22, 2005 10:32 am (#142 of 530)

I also am holding out hope that DD wasn't wrong in trusting Snape. It seems a letdown to make make Snape just a bad guy DE. (I've always thought the quote about the world not being divided into DE and Good guys was a great way to show that people like Umbridge exist. I always put Snape in the same category.)

Back on Snape still being trustworthy. People have mentioned that Snape didn't hurt Harry, but he also had the chance to take out Hermione and Luna (I believe book is not w/ me) when Flitwick arrived. If her really was LV ultimate DE why not take care of "Little Miss Know-it-all" and give Harry a pretty serious injury?

- - - - - - - - - -
Wizadora - Jul 22, 2005 11:03 am (#143 of 530)

I also agree that the answer Harry gave to the Order about why DD trusted Snape was so weak, there has to be more. But what I don't understand is, if DD knew that he was going to die and it was all planned, he had to have told someone the real reason that he trusted Snape or Snape hasn't got a chance of ever being believed himself by the Order. I am hoping that there is a little glass bottle somewhere to be tipped into a pensive which will tell us all.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 22, 2005 12:15 pm (#144 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
But perhaps it was a necessity everyone was convinced Snape is a real DE. Voldemort is very good with legilimency and who knows who spies for him, whether under the Imperius curse or not ? And if DD set Snape for a particular task with the necessity for him to be near LV, that can be considered done and well done.

Other hypothesis : the only person who knows about Snape being on the good side is unworthy of noticing by anyone and doesn't even belong to the order. Someone like Arabella Figg.

- - - - - - - - - -
Nymphadora Lupin - Jul 22, 2005 12:19 pm (#145 of 530)

sepentrion said:

Other hypothesis : the only person who knows about Snape being on the good side is unworthy of noticing by anyone and doesn't even belong to the order. Someone like Arabella Figg.

Or maybe Aunt Petunia... Wink

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 22, 2005 5:09 pm (#146 of 530)

Perhaps he made a vow to protect "the child" born at the end of July--recall it was a prophesy so it hadn't happened yet--so Snape, in his guilt made it his life mission to make sure LV could not kill the baby--and when he realized it was James' son he about had a heart attack--- conflicted. He promised to protect Harry but he didn't have to like him or treat him well either....

But when the child ended up looking so much like James rather than Lily, it was too much to bear

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Jul 22, 2005 5:41 pm (#147 of 530)

"I do think that Snape heard the whole of the prophecy though, Paulus, because Harry sees the whole thing in DDs memory, if Snape had been caught at the door before he heard the end of it, there would have been an altered memory or the like. Therefore, Eunice is correct is saying that Snape only told LV what DD and Snape wanted him to know, therefore not only building his trust towards DD and proving his true intentions but allowing the prophecy to be fulfilled."

That's a very disturbing idea.

Because it means that Dumbledore DID lie to Harry...

Actually, Harry doesn't see the whole thing in DD's memory. All he saw was Trelawney. No doors, no walls, no spies...

Unless, of course, Snape heard the whole thing and Dumbledore didn't know it, in which case... well, we haven't seen the last of Snape's treachery, and it won't go well for Voldemort...

I just can't believe that Dumbledore would lie to Harry, except by omission...

I hope I'm not confusing anyone...

- - - - - - - - - -
So Sirius - Jul 22, 2005 6:13 pm (#148 of 530)

I have conceded that I don't think DD would purposefully have lied to Harry, either. I like the idea that he might not have known, thus making him not a liar but unaware.

Unless I'm incorrect, which happens, admittedly, We hear what is the whole prophecy through DD's memory in the pensieve. It's highly possible Snape was spotted, ran away and brought back after Trelawney finished and then the door opened to find Snape and Aberforth there, and we hear no shuffling sounds or things going on outside the door in his memory, but it's also possible that he heard the whole thing as well. We'll come to find out if this has anything to do with DD's trust in him.

And we know little about Aberforth. What if he was listening at the door with Snape? The other possibility is that we don't hear the whole prophecy and there's more to it, but again, that would make DD dishonest.

- - - - - - - - - -
Chloe Nightingale - Jul 22, 2005 8:20 pm (#149 of 530)

I think the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape is because Snape trusted Dumbledore to protect someone for him. If Dumbledore told anyone, they might at some time be questioned by Voldemort and probably wouldn't be able to keep the secret as Voldemort's a better legilimens than almost anybody.

Remember when Dumbledore was telling Draco that he could hide him more completely than he could ever imagine and that Voldemort couldn't kill him if he was already dead? Maybe that's something he's already done.

I also think Snape's boggart is related to this -- remember in book 3 when Lupin took the class into the teacher's lounge to show them the boggart and Snape left the room? I think his boggart, his worst fear, is someone (or perhaps more specifically Voldemort) discovering whatever/whomever he and Dumbledore are protecting. That would explain why JKR won't peep.

What do you guys think about this?

I heard a rumor that while Snape was saying "Avada Kedavra," he was actually transfiguring Dumbledore's spit into the Draught of the Living Death. While I don't believe this, I thought it was pretty funny.

- - - - - - - - - -
Kazius - Jul 22, 2005 9:01 pm (#150 of 530)

Skeptic
Someone was asking about why Dumbledore wanted Snape, probably because Dumbledore didn't yet realize that this was Draco's mission, he initally didn't realize that it was happening that night, or that he thought it might be another attack, not involving Draco.

Perhaps, because Snape didn't have the details, Dumbledore was just thinking about that night, and knew he needed to recover, however once Dumbledore realized what was happening, he immobilized Harry and allowed the events to happen.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 151 to 200)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:23 am

greyeyesathene - Jul 22, 2005 11:36 pm (#151 of 530)
I really like your idea, Chloe Nightingale. I too think if Dumbledore really didn't fully elaborate then it was because whatever the reason is it is something that is very, very secret and must be kept so.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ann - Jul 23, 2005 12:14 am (#152 of 530)

Some really GREAT ideas in this thread. I loved the parallel wynnleaf drew with Harry's expression when he was hurting Dumbledore in the Cave. And what was that potion? Dumbledore's begging at one point that whoever he thinks is going to hurt someone hurt him instead sounds like some sort of psychological torture--not to mention a preview of his pleas to Snape to kill him (to save Snape and the Malfoys lives, I'm assuming) only a few hours later.

As far as the main question of the thread, JKR clearly says there is some information we don't have yet:

ES: How can someone so- JKR: Intelligent - ES: be so blind with regard to certain things? JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven....

She follows this immediately by pointing out that Dumbledore makes huge emotional mistakes (as several people have stressed) and that he has no confidants with whom to discuss his decisions or share information (as fewer people have stressed). I think that as someone (Very Sirius, was it?) said, Dumbledore's big mistake in book 6 is going to turn out to have been not confiding in more people the information that we still don't have about why he trusted Snape. But I do think it is a very good reason. Dumbledore isn't stupid--he didn't trust Tom Riddle. But the fact that no one in the order now knows that Snape is on their side for sure (as Dumbledore did, I insist), means that the Order can't or won't make use of the information he is now so well-placed to deliver.

I really like the idea that Petunia or someone unlikely like that may turn out to know the true reason for Dumbledore's trust. Although Harry himself should be able to work out that Dumbledore's trust was justified and that Snape killed Dumbledore under Dumbledore's own orders--orders so like the ones that he had given Harry only a few hours earlier. And I think Hermione would be equally sure of it, even if Harry only told her about what he has assumed were Dumbledore's pleas for his life. (I can't imagine McGonnagal or Lupin or Hagrid believing he would do that, either!) She seems to be defending him in HBP, both before the murder (when she tells Harry that Snape sounds like him after the first DADA lesson) and afterwards (when she says about the Half-Blood Prince/Snape "Evil is a strong word.")

Perhaps Book Six will be Harry, working secretly with Ron, Hermione, and Snape, having to fight off both the Order and the Ministry to keep Snape safe! That would be a twist! (Do you suppose there will eventually be a Snape-Potter reversal, with Harry standing in judgment over Snape? And showing the mercy he's never really been shown? That would be nice. I'd like to think that Snape will somehow survive, though I fear he won't. But he's going to have to seriously risk his life--perhaps even choose it--for Harry's sake to expiate his action, however motivated, in killing Dumbledore.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 23, 2005 12:28 am (#153 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Chloe Nightingale, I too like your idea.

In the 3rd part of Jo's interview, she refused to say if Snape loved Lily, she just accepted to say Lily was a very popular girl. We have a free rein for speculation on this one !

Ann, Harry and Snape will meet again but I fear only a life-sacrifice could restore what little faith Harry ever had in Snape. Snape never could overcome his hatred for Harry's father, he even transfered it to Harry, and I'm afraid the reverse is true too : Harry will always hate Snape, even if Snape would save his life.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ann - Jul 23, 2005 12:33 am (#154 of 530)

Septietrion, I don't think Harry will always hate Snape. I'm pretty sure he will have to forgive him eventually, if only because hate is such a negative, destructive emotion. And I am SURE that Snape is acting on Dumbledore's orders. The parallel with Harry's actions in the cave scene, as well as the fact that Dumbledore would never plead for his life (Death, rememeber, is the next great adventure), make me certain that Snape is as much Dumbledore's man as Harry is.

- - - - - - - - - -
greyeyesathene - Jul 23, 2005 12:46 am (#155 of 530)

I really don't want to think that Snape is evil. However, I could never see him as being really that good. I think he suffers from a sort of situational clausterphobia. I prefer to think that he's been playing the sides for years now and finally all the tension of spy work in combination with his already unstable nature lead to an emotional breakdown just a little bit after the Ministry fiasco. Said breakdown lead to him being very irrational; making that horrid vow to Narcissa, arguing with Dumbledore, and realizing that he's just made a several errors that are going to prove hard to fix. I do think he eventually confided in Dumbledore about the Vow, and they decided that Snape would have to eventually kill DD. However, Snape's reasons for this were less of loyalty to DD and more just plain preservation of his open options. Maybe DD's real reason for trusting Snape was that DD could always rely on Snape being *untrustworthy*.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 23, 2005 12:51 am (#156 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
That just reminds me of Jack Sparrow in Pirats of Carribean : "I'm dishonest, and you can expext me to be always dishonest. It's the honest ones you want to watch, you never know when they're going to do something stupid". The quote isn't exact but I think you get the idea. And don't forget DD's a great manipulator, he knows how to use others' weaknesses. If Snape plays both sides, he will use him knowing that.

- - - - - - - - - -
Luanee - Jul 23, 2005 12:58 am (#157 of 530)

I have posted it elsewhere, but I think I shall repeat here. I believe Snape is still a good guy... Dumbledore probably decided to sacrifice himself to allow Snape to win Voldemort's trust, hence he instructed Snape to kill him. Voldemort's trust in Snape will allow Snape to act as a spy so as to assist Harry in killing Voldemort in the 7th book...

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 23, 2005 8:45 am (#158 of 530)

Consider who Dumbledore chooses to help and give multiple chances to--those who have suffered, been victimized and who,. in spite of everything they have gone through still possess the ability to love--

Draco showed that he was afraid for his parents, he didn't want to kill Dumbledore but he was worried--not for himself but for his mother and father-- Hagrid was truly loveable in spite of his Giant Blood and was victimized but never became bitter and was always loyal. Harry suffered but still possessed the ability to love and put the needs of others first.

I believe that there is something about Snape along those lines--the ability to love someone, the abilty to reform, to show loyalty, to suffer in silence-- we do not know what threats LV made to him---we know that he begged forgiveness and showed remorse--a humanity.

Tom Riddle never showed anything but contempt at the worst and indifference at best to those around him. Speaking of which--in the chapter on Voldemorts request, why does Dumbledore keep calling him Lord Voldemort--he always referred to him as Tom Riddle. it was Riddle applying for Teaching jobs--Dumbledore wouldn't acknowledge him as Lord would he?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. D. - Jul 23, 2005 9:39 am (#159 of 530)

I kind of see a similarity between Snape and Petunia. Both are not very happy people and both have had some pretty insane jealousy. Both seemed to detest James while Petunia also had major problems with sis. Seems like they are both emotionally scarred from not ever feeling like they were good enough. I am not suggesting they were an item or anything. Just that Harry has two very similar people in his life in the MW and the WW. also, will his trust in Snape have a similarity in the end to why he trusted Petunia?

Then of course I've got to run Draco and Dudley along those same lines as well. Neither can do anything wrong as far as Snape and Petunia are concerned (respectively of course).

So is Vernon like Voldemort then? LOL!

- - - - - - - - - -
Crissy - Jul 23, 2005 10:49 am (#160 of 530)

Septentrion- I'ts very possible that JKR MIGHT have made a mistake with the 14/16 year thing, but I find it very hard to believe that she did. She's so detail-oriented; that's what the stories are based on, her details. He's been teaching at the school for 14 years, but maybe there's more to his and Dumbledore's story that just that.

Just a thought!

- - - - - - - - - -
Crissy - Jul 23, 2005 11:08 am (#161 of 530)

"Also, I think that is why DD wanted Snape to give Harry occlumency lessons, not to actually help Harry close off his mind, but to see if Harry could hide important information, and they found out he couldn't, which meant that DD and Snape had to devise a plan in which Harry wouldn't know anything."

Alisa, I hadn't thought of that before, it's a very simple yet excellent theory...

I also think that DD was dying anyway because of the potion he'd drunk when fetching the horcrux at the cave, and I believe that he'd previously settled with Snape something along of the lines of "just in case such and such happens..." or "in the event that such and such happens..." that Snape would have to proceed to killing him. DD KNEW he was going to die that night, and rushedly gave Harry the rest of what he needed to know to fight LV.

But, back to the thread, the theory that's going on about there being an Unbreakable Vow between Snape and DD makes sense. JKR never mentions things in her books unless they're going to show up later on in the book, or if they're going to be for someone's rise or fall. Like, the mention of certain spells or potions, and such. And it's very possible that the Vow was made between Snape and the DD brothers, now that someone mentioned it (I'm sorry, I don't remember who it was!). Or it could've been with someone else, someone we can't imagine...

- - - - - - - - - -
Crissy - Jul 23, 2005 11:40 am (#162 of 530)

Jesepi wrote- "I again point to the things that he has done that really counts. 1. He threw himself between HRH and a werewolf, would LV, Bella or anyother DE do that? 2. He informed the Order that Sirius (his nemesis) was at the Minestry being attacked by LV. He didn't know that Harry was there, for all he knew Umbridge still had Harry in the forest. 3. He saved Harry from the Snake in CoS. 4. He saved Harry from Quirrel in SS. 5. He didn't hurt Harry at the end of HBP"

Ok, now, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, and then again, I might be wrong, but doesn't this mean that Harry owes Snape a life debt, if not more than one? Snape has saved Harry's life more than once, and come to think of it, what about Hermione's and Ron's, in the case of the Lupin as werewolf, in The Prisoner of Azkaban? Can someone correct me if I'm wrong?

- - - - - - - - - -
Herm oh ninny - Jul 23, 2005 11:57 am (#163 of 530)

"Accio treats!"
Cissy, that was only in the movie. In the book, Snape was passed out up in the Shrieking Shack, having been stunned by all three kids.

- - - - - - - - - -
Crissy - Jul 23, 2005 12:13 pm (#164 of 530)

Valfunde wrote- "I don't mean to answer for Wandless Wizard and I hope I'm not stepping on toes, but I want to say that you are right, Very Sirius. It's amazing to me that LV gave Lily an option. Isn't that extremely strange? LV and all his DE's murder and maim left and right to the point where people are afraid to even say LV's name. LV wasn't going to kill Lily until she gave her life to protect Harry. How many supremely evil Dark Lords would show "mercy" to a victim like that? That would be the only time one could imagine. Why did that happen? "

Just thinking aloud, but any connections to LV's story with his own mother? He'd killed his own father for having treated his mother like that...I don't know, I might not be making any sense, but again, I was just thinking about this aloud...hahaha. Ok, back to the thread at hand!

- - - - - - - - - -
Weeny Owl - Jul 23, 2005 1:21 pm (#165 of 530)

The sixteen years thing might not be a mistake.

Snape told Bella that he had sixteen years of information to give Voldemort. If Snape started working for Dumbledore the night he overheard part of the prophecy, it could work.

We don't know exactly when the prophecy was made, but it was before Harry was born (July 1980, according to the HP Lexicon). Voldemort's rebirthing took place in June 1995. (Harry's fourth year was 1994-1995.) From 1980 to 1995 is fifteen years, but if the prophecy was made early enough and if Snape came over to "our side" that night, then it could work out, perhaps not to the exact month so that it is at least sixteen years, but close enough.

- - - - - - - - - -
Crissy - Jul 23, 2005 3:08 pm (#166 of 530)

I also think that the remorse Snape felt isn't enough of a reason for DD to trust him, and that there has to be something else. Whether it's an Unbreakable Vow (which, someone mentioned, DD wouldn't be likely to do because of the whole freewill thing), or Lily, or whatever reason, I believe that no one else in the Order knows about it because the more people that know, the more it compromises their plan to bring Voldemort down. If we're assuming that Harry's lessons in Occlumency were to see whether or not he could hide his thoughts, NOT to actually teach him the art, why not assume that Voldemort could very easily get to anyone whom he might suspect as being a member of the Order to get information from them? I believe that DD believed that in order for his and Snape's plans to work, absolutely no one would have to know, and now that he's dead, it's up to Snape to do the rest. In that case, Snape has a heck of a lot on his shoulders.

I'm completely convinced he's on the good side, although I have to admit I WAS taken aback when he killed DD. I had to reread the chapter about three times. I was still shocked after having reading it again. Yes, like it was mentioned in the books, not everyone is either a DE or a good guy. Like Umbridge, there ARE mean and cruel people, but they're not necessarily on the side of evil. I admit that Snape isn't a very nice person, but we still don't know what causes him to be like that, even though we learned a few things from his past.

But anyway, in conclusion, I reiterate: I think that DD didn't let on to anyone else what he and Snape had planned just for the simple reason that it would compromise them. The less people that know, the better, the more effective the plan would be, even if there are sacrifices.

- - - - - - - - - -
Crissy - Jul 23, 2005 3:10 pm (#167 of 530)

Ooooooh, Nymphadora Lupin!!! "Or maybe Aunt Petunia." Wow! Who knows???

- - - - - - - - - -
Dani - Jul 23, 2005 5:36 pm (#168 of 530)

Sorry if this is all out of sorts but I am very new to this website and forum. I have learned alot by coming to this website. However I do have a theory and hope it is posted, although I do not know how to do this yet or even if it will work.

I do still think that Sanpe is on the good side. I think that occlumency and legilimency skills were very important when Snape paused and was staring with his wand pointing at DD. I think that the expression on Snapes face would be that of anyone who was asked to kill someone that has always given you the benefit of the doubt let alone complete trust as DD has done with Snape. So I think that DD asked Snape to kill him because that would ensure that Snape can and will still be a confidant of Voldemort. I by no means like Snape. I just do not think that he is the coward that Harry thinks he is. I could be wrong but I really want to hope the JKR would not disgrace DD's memory, by makeing Snape turn out to be a really evil person. As in evil, I mean to the bone not just surface which I think that Snape is just putting on a good face. Of course these suggestions might have all been covered by the time I figured out how to post a message here, but for whatever it is worth this is a theory of mine.

Dani

- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Jul 23, 2005 7:30 pm (#169 of 530)

Edited by Jul 23, 2005 7:36 pm
Harry on p. 571 (US) is described as "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing..." Whereas Snape is portrayed as "...and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." (p. 303 US)

These are similar but not the same. Snape's emotions were external, Harry's were internal. Snape appears to hate Dumbledore. Harry hates himself.

P.S. Gina where are you? You know Snape best of all. I eagerly await your opinion.

- - - - - - - - - -
Agramante - Jul 23, 2005 10:09 pm (#170 of 530)

Yeah, most of us seem to think that Snape isn't all bad, and that Dumbledore was almost complicit in his own death. It's hard to imagine what (how little or how much) the two might have planned as far as Snape's apparent betrayal, but HBP left me with a very good feeling about him. He finally came into his own as a character with some real influence, over other witches and wizards, and not just some dark comic prop. He taught Harry more about potions and magic in general than any other wizard that year--including Dumbledore (if only through the book). After killing a wandless Dumbledore, he spared a wandless Harry...and actually the biggest shock for me during the book was how he simply let Harry go scot free after Harry's "sectumsempra" attack on Malfoy (boy did he seriously lose some stature in this book). "You should be expelled for this!" was all Snape said, kind of a weak scolding if you ask me. Especially since he never followed up on it...heck, Harry could be sent to prison for attempted murder after using that spell (and I don't think "I didn't know what it would do" would be much of a defense). Snape, without thanks, protected Harry from himself in probably the most shameful act of his life. I don't think Dumbledore's trust in Snape was misplaced, at all. Snape does hate Harry...but he wants Voldemort to go down even more.

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Jul 23, 2005 11:49 pm (#171 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Yes, Agramante, I agree. Me too I thought that the punishment given to Harry for having almost killed Malfoy was too mild. That's maybe because the wounds prevented Malfoy to let the DE inside Hogwarts earlier, and Snape actually didn't want that Malfoy performed his plan.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 24, 2005 1:34 am (#172 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Susurro, as we read the books from Harry's point of view, we don't know if his emotions weren't showing on his face. and if Snape killed DD with DD's consentment, he did something he didn't long to do whereas supposed to play an act in front of DE.

I had another idea of why Snape's position on the side of good must stay secret : LV has lost his spy in the Order, so to get information, he'll have to fish them. A way to do it is to kidnap a member of the Order and have them talk. So it is necessary the Order stays ignorant.

Agramanete, I think you may be on something with that weak reaction of Snape. BTW what happens that fateful night seems very fishy to me. DD makes sure everyone knows he's away but asks the Order to secretly patrol the castle. This same night Draco finds out how to have the vanishing cabinet works and the DE comes at once, knowing DD is away (imperiused Rosmerta must have warned Draco). But if the deal was to kill DD, why wait for a moment when he's absent ? Of course, they didn't expect resistance, but why did DD made sure to let known he was away ? And did Snape expect something ? Because DD says to Harry : "go and wake Severus". It seemed after all that Saverus wasn't asleep when Flitwick fetched him. All the events of that night leaves me with an uneasy feeling, something's escaping me, something very important. Of course, everything would be clear as soon as we know about Snape's real loyalties but that won't happen before book 7.

Susurro, Gina took off for Europe Friday evening. She'll attend the Accio event next week in Reading (see the thread about it on the main forum).

- - - - - - - - - -
greyeyesathene - Jul 24, 2005 6:52 am (#173 of 530)

What irks me most is Snape's almost demented, "DON'T CALL ME COWARD!". It seemed almost out of context and was a response to Harry's reference of DD's death/murder/thing. Earlier on Harry had just absently called Snape a coward as well, but all it received was a comparatively mild, "Well if I am, what was your father?" or something like that. The extreme contrast between these two reactions that were similar, that happened only minutes apart from one another suggests that Snape wasn't all that happy about Dumby's death either. Of course Snapples could just be insane...

- - - - - - - - - -
Ydnam96 - Jul 24, 2005 8:01 am (#174 of 530)

Hmmmm...that is interesting about Snape being "asleep". Why would he have not been with the other teachers patrolling? Very curious...

- - - - - - - - - -
Boris the Bewildered - Jul 24, 2005 8:13 am (#175 of 530)

I believe that there must be more than remorse at the heart of this. For those of you making a saint of Snape, go to the end of the JKR interview to LC - end of part 3 and chew on this:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] It's a very long one - 3 parter. When she mentions in the end MA: Oh, here’s one that I’ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has.

- - - - - - - - - -
Dani - Jul 24, 2005 9:11 am (#176 of 530)

So, do most of you think that Snape killed DD on DD's order? Do any of you think that Occlumency and Legilimency played a part in it like I suggested earlier?

- - - - - - - - - -
Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2005 9:15 am (#177 of 530)

Dani, J.K. Rowling's most recent interviews tend to indicate that Dumbledore had good reason to trust Snape a reason which has not yet been given, Also, the recent intervieews make me think that Dumbledore and Snape engaged in an elaboration deception at the end of HBP.

- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Jul 24, 2005 10:07 am (#178 of 530)

septentrion,

In post #169 I included the actual wording of the emotional reactions of Snape and Harry because I believe JKR is very careful in her wording. The need to carefully read and consider exactly what is meant by JKR is imperative in our quest to understand her intent.

Of course we are unaware of the appearance of Harry's face but given the wording "Hating himself..." I would think Harry's appearance would be one of pain and compassion not of hatred.

In contrast Snape's external appearance is one of hatred. I do not think that this necessarily means that he hates Dumbledore. In fact I am rather a fan of the idea that he hates the act he is performing possibly in combination with the need to build up a certain amount of negative energy so that he can "mean" the curse rendering it effective.

Thank you for the heads up on Gina

- - - - - - - - - -
Ann - Jul 24, 2005 12:04 pm (#179 of 530)

About this idea that Lily was the reason for Snape's returning to Dumbledore: I don't know at this point whether I came up with this myself or read someone else's suggestion, but I wonder about Lily's potions brilliance, as reported by Slughorn. Could the textbook Snape had have been loaned to Lily at one point? After all, Olivander implied that Lily's wand was best suited to charms, and JKR has suggested (I think in an interview) that this is significant. Maybe it's significant because she helped Snape with charms (which he later dismissed, in his bitterness, as foolish wand waving), while he helped her with potions.

Oh, and I also think Snape somehow arranged for Harry to get that book, though he's appalled when he finds that Harry has used it to curse Draco.

And as for the difference in Snape's reaction between the first and the second time Harry calls him a coward. I don't think that's what he's mad about the second time. The second time, when his face becomes so contorted with rage and pain and is compared to Fang's wild howling, Harry has just reminded him that he's killed Dumbledore. JKR breaks his answer oddly: "DON'T -" and his face was suddenly contorted [etc., etc., for three lines] "- CALL ME A COWARD!" The dashes are sort of buried by the quotation marks, but they make it clear that this was not what he was going to say at first.

By the way, I also think that the reason JKR calls Snape worse than Voldemort refers not to his killing of Dumbledore, but to his joining the DEs in the first place. (I'm on the "Snape is good" side, in case you've missed that.)

- - - - - - - - - -
Agramante - Jul 24, 2005 12:53 pm (#180 of 530)

Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to call Snape a saint--he's far too conflicted, and his motivations are generally selfish--but in one sense I could see that he's worse than Voldemort--because he's dithered and changed sides. Sort of how the lost souls in Limbo are more hateful to God than the ones actually in the lower circles of the pit in Dante's Inferno, merely because they never decided to be with or against God. That little bit from JKR, about Snape's having been loved, is interesting...so Snape has betrayed love, which Voldemort never did. Hmm...sounds like we'll be learning more about Severus. Snape seems to despise companionship much like Tom/Voldemort does, though he's not as clever and not one thousandth as smooth...perhaps, like some of you suggest, there's a twisted love interest in Lily at work here too. And those were very good observations about Snape's differring reactions to being called coward: obviously, some changed circumstance the second time caused a nerve to be touched. Remorse, possibly, though I don't think Snape particularly cared for Dumbledore either...guilt at betraying a benefactor, the knowledge that he'd just made a tremendous gamble (and made himself a hated person by doing so)...no, I'd not call Snape a coward. Murdering Dumbledore required serious stones (which little Draco seems to completely lack...poor kid didn't even seem to want to be evil, the way he was being wheedled by Albus).

- - - - - - - - - -
M A Grimmett - Jul 24, 2005 1:40 pm (#181 of 530)

It's interesting thzt Dumbledore says that because he's more gifted than most people his mistakes are correspondingly huger. I wonder if his mistake with Snape is that he simply believed Snape's penitant act? Maybe that's the easy way out, though. It certainly seems that there's a lot of unfinished business with Snape. There certainly seem to be a lot of lives owed to the Potters--Snape's to James, Wormtail's to Harry. What happens when there's a debt owed that can't be collected, as with James? Does the debt automatically devolve on Harry, or is there just some karmic implications? What happens if Snape or Wormtail refuse to acknowledge this debt? There's got to be more to these debts, or else I don't think JKR would have mentioned them.

I wonder if Snape was so upset at being called a coward because maybe he hasn't been on the front lines of the DEs as much as the other ones had and his conscience (or whatever) was needling him about it, or because he's running the most dangerous game of all with LV.

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Jul 24, 2005 1:45 pm (#182 of 530)

I have been wondering whether Voldemort considered Snape to be the "one too cowardly to return" or the "one who I believe has left me forever"... Snape said to Bella and Cissy that Voldemort considered him to be the latter, but...

...Harry definitely touched a nerve by calling Snape coward, and it may be because Voldemort (with whom Snape has good reason to identify) also considered him a coward...

Also, Voldemort promised death to the deserter, and Karkaroff was killed by Death Eaters, so we can't rule out the possibility that Karkaroff was the deserter...

Also, I kind of doubt that Snape had told Bella the truth...

- - - - - - - - - -
ajin7 - Jul 24, 2005 6:00 pm (#183 of 530)

In GoF, Ch. 36, DD says to Snape: "Severus, you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready... if you are prepared..." "I am," said Snape. He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. "Then good luck," said DD, and he watched , with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius.

Have people already concluded what DD asks of Snape? Is it to kill DD if it's necessary?

- - - - - - - - - -
Circe - Jul 24, 2005 6:03 pm (#184 of 530)

Isn't it to go to Voldemort and plead that he is indeed a DE that did not leave for good. After all in Spinners End he tells Bella why he showed up two hours later than everyone else after Voldemort calls them.

Questions still remains - who is the greater master of legimency - Dumbledore or Voldmort? Because Snape is clearly fooling one of them.

- - - - - - - - - -
Dani - Jul 24, 2005 6:10 pm (#185 of 530)

I must be very clueless, because I do not remember much in the HP Books about debts, when and who they are owed and the consequences of them being or not being fulfilled? Can anyone lead me to where I need to read up on it?

I also want to know if it is possible that Lily and Snape could be related - cousins maybe? Is it possible for Lily to have been born to a witch and a wizard and Petunia be a squib, and if that is shot down, Is it possible that Lily was born to muggles and there not be any witch/wizarding blood in the family? Does it go with or without saying that a witch/wizard could be the first in a family? I guess that these questions can also apply to Hermione.

I do not claim to be the most knowledgeable person when it comes to Harry. So, please do not think of me as an idiot by asking these questions if it is common knowledge.

- - - - - - - - - -
Dani - Jul 24, 2005 6:12 pm (#186 of 530)

Circe, reply to #184 - he could be fooling both.

- - - - - - - - - -
Dani - Jul 24, 2005 6:17 pm (#187 of 530)

Reply to #183 - DD asked Snape to return to LV as DE. At least that is what I think.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ag Hart - Jul 24, 2005 8:55 pm (#188 of 530)

Voldemort does not seem to have told Snape the secret plan. Does Voldemort still not trust Snape? Snape tells Draco's mother in Chapter 2 that he is one of the few in whom the Dark Lord has confided when she first mentions the top secret plan that involves Draco. However, the night of Slughorn's party, he attempts to discover the plan by questioning Draco who stubbornly refuses. Snape doesn't appear to have known of the plan; he certainly wouldn't have been asleep (if he truly was sleeping). After killing DD, Snape would've gained Voldemort's trust. It certainly appears that Snape lied to Bella and Cissy; so if he lied about knowing the plan, he may have been lying about everything else. In any case, he doesn't appear to have been in on the set up. This lends credence to those posters who believe that DD is not mistaken in his trust of Snape. I wouldn't go so far as to say that DD's death was planned, but perhaps it was planned for if it became necessary. DD may have given Snape an unspoken command, and this may explain his fury and his later pain when he lashed out at Harry. From his perspective, it might have been a supreme act of courage.

Also, perhaps Wormtail may repay his debt to Harry by relaying some info he learned while in Snape's house.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 24, 2005 11:36 pm (#189 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Don't worry Dani, after a few days on this forum, you'll have more than enough knowledge and speculations about the HP books !

About Lily's family, Jo has stated in an interview last summer that Petunia was a muggle, period.

Are Snape and Lily related ? No clue.

How does the debt thing work ? It's still debated.

Do you think the mere fact that DD and Snape had an argument could be a clue that Snape is DD's man ? If he was a genuine DE, why bother to argue about what DD asks him to do ? He would have just to play along to gather information for LV. I can imagine Snape arguing with order members such as Moody but what for with DD ? On the other hand, Snape plays along with what LV asks him to do...

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Jul 25, 2005 12:12 am (#190 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Yesterday evening I've been rereading some PoA chapters and here's what I found:

First of all, when Lupin in the Shack explains HRH about Snape and James loathing each other, he says: "[Severus] especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James' talent on the Quidditch pitch..." (PoA 18). I startled when I read that jealous. Snape never showed much interest in Quidditch - not as Professor McGonaggal, at least. So, couldn't Lupin here be hiding what Snape was really jealous of? Namely, Lily?

Second, about the debts (someone was asking). Dumbledore says, talking about Wormtail: "When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them... and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter" (PoA 22). This makes me think that Wormtail has still a role to play; something like Frodo letting Gollum alive, and it will be Gollum to destroy the ring...

And then, I considered again Snape's worst memory. It came to me that Snape's "worst" memory it is not when Sirius tried to expose him to Lupin-werewolf; is is not something concerning Voldemort or the DE; it is not being caught overearing Trelawney's prophecy... It is when he lost his temper in front of Lily and insulted her. I'm more and more convinced that there's something true in the Snape-Lily theory (whatever their realtionship was).

- - - - - - - - - -
Verbina - Jul 25, 2005 7:31 am (#191 of 530)

Image by me. Base by Nefertiti at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Edited by Jul 25, 2005 7:36 am
Re-reading the book and I came up with a few things as I was reading Chapter two... (ummm yeah, I am taking notes...is that odd?)

On pg 27 of the American Hardcover, Snape tells Bella and Narcissa that DD "wouldn't give me the Defense against the Dark Arts job, you know. Seemed to think it might, ah, bring about a relapse...tempt me into old ways." Doesn't seem like much but... look at the past tense words in there. Wouldn't. Seemed to think... By the time this scene happened, Snape already knew he was getting the DADA position. This took place in a very short time since the fight at the MoM. DD never really had much time to find anyone else to fill the position. Smells to me as if it were set up that way on purprose.

Also on page 29, Snape says that "the Dark Lord thought I had left him forvever." almost the exact words that Voldemort used in the cemetery in GoF. Does this mean that Snape was the missing DE that was said to have been lost forever?

Also, Snape knows about the damage to DD's arm. I am fairly sure he would know what caused it since DD went to Snape about the injury first. So why doesn't Snape mention the way DD got the imjury to his arm or even talk about how severe it is?

- - - - - - - - - -
Bkfly - Jul 25, 2005 7:36 am (#192 of 530)

Do we know what house DD was in when he attended Hogwarts?

- - - - - - - - - -
jesepi - Jul 25, 2005 7:40 am (#193 of 530)

Dumbledore Lives!!!
That comment to Bella and Narcissa didn't make much sense to me when I read it. If merely teaching the Dark Arts would send Snape into a relapse, then wouldn't being a DE too? This was obviously a lie, just like everything else he said. He didn't know about the plan, or else he wouldn't have questioned Malfoy and he also says that he waited to find out if Harry was another Dark Lord which is why he didn't kill him. But if you read SS/PS he disliked Harry from the very first moment. The very first thing he ever says to Harry is about him being the "New Celebrity". Also in SS/PS Harry tells Hagrid about Snape's dislike and Hagrid avoids eye contact. It seems likely that Snape was suppose to pit himself against Harry on DD's orders. That in order for Snape to effectively remain a loyal DE in the eye's of LV (should he ever return) he could not possibly be on good terms with Harry. I also think that DD was wise enough to know that this would be a relatively easy job for Snape due to the previous relationship between him and Harry's father.

Edit: DD was in Gryfindor

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Jul 25, 2005 8:13 am (#194 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Jesepi, Snape was known to be strict with his pupils also before Harry enterend in Hogwarts. That's what the Weasley twins tell Harry and Ron at the beginning of PS/SS. I think that the hate Snape shows toward Harry is genuine; on the other hand, he treats horribly also Neville (the other possible "chosen one" by the prophecy). This doesn't mean, however, that Snape has protected Harry till now (and I hope in future too).

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 25, 2005 8:38 am (#195 of 530)

Edited Jul 25, 2005 9:10 am
New to this thread and read quickly through most of the posts and agree Lilly has something to with DD's trust of Snape. Have gone into the Snape and DD question in another spot so I won't go into it here, (DD not wrong, Snape still working for DD) but came across something I think gives merit to the Snape loved Lilly theory. Posted this in the other thread, but what do you think?

I mentioned earlier that I thought Lilly may have something to do with DD's trust of Snape and may have some support for that. Clearly, DD's comment that Snape regretted a part in the Potter's death, seemed to fall short of totally convincing by itself.

But DD tells Harry at the end of "Horcruxes", that love is "The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's."

Snape had no love for James, but I believe he did love Lilly. Never brings her up to Harry, only James. (The mudblood comment came during a highly embarrassing moment, and Snape was young, don't think it meant anything).

When the Potter's decided to go into hiding,DD had someone close to LV telling him that someone close to the Potter's was passing info. It would follow that Snape was the source, who had returned upon learning who his info had put in jeopardy. Black, of course, was under suspicion, that is why DD volunteered to be the Potter's secret keeper.

Looking at a quote from Snape (one of his really emotional outbursts, these I think tell us about the true Snape who is normally completely under control, which is why he is such an accomplished Occlumens) from the end of POA-

"Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd (Black) killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black--..."

Bit emotional for Snape (described as looking madder than ever), regarding James death. While Snape did owe James for saving his life (regardless of circumstances) this is way over the top (as is his hatred for Black, this goes way past schoolday stuff). This reeks of guilt and blame. Guilt over Lilly's death and blame because Snape tried to stop LV by telling DD that there was a spy (at the time still thought to be Black), and James ignored the warning. Snape's hatred of James is not just from school, Snape blames James for Lilly's death, and for making Snape responsible for a murder. Snape tried to make right what he had done, and, in his mind, James was too arrogant and got in the way.

This does not totally answer where Snape's loyalty lies (though I stick with my belief he is still with the order), but it does seem to indicate, no matter what, Snape owes Harry on many levels and will need to settle the debt in Book 7.

Hope this makes sense and hasn't been covered already. Any thoughts?

Oh, and love the idea that Snape was the awful boy Petunia was talking about. More like Snape to be talking about Dementors and wouldn't Petunia have been more taken in by the attractive James? If Petunia didn't like Snape, all the more reason to think he's not all bad...

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Jul 25, 2005 8:55 am (#196 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
T Vrana wrote: "Snape blames James for Lily's death"

I think this is a very clever insight, T Vrana. If it's true, it would be very human from Snape to think like that. Something like, "If you wouldn't have married that *arrogant* of Potter, you would be alive now".

Gosh, more and more deep in the Snape-Lily theory...

- - - - - - - - - -
M A Grimmett - Jul 25, 2005 9:09 am (#197 of 530)

Ok, Ag Hart has convinced me that Snape is a double agent for the OOP. I love the people on this board!

Eunice, maybe the quidditch was something that Snape had as sort of a focus for his dislike--here's James, handsome, popular, extremely bright, and he nicked the snitch so he could show off--the students would have been very admiring of his skill on the pitch and this would have come up frequently in conversations about the House quidditch matches. One of the first things Harry learns in the wizarding world about his father is that he was excellent in quidditch. I think that perhaps Lupin just wasn't saying the whole truth about the source of Snape's dislike. Snape would probably feel that he had no chance with a girl like Lily if James was also interested in her--it seems that Lily's early dislike of James was down to his arrogance and treatment of Snape--and nobody wants to be the object of pity by someone they care for.

- - - - - - - - - -
Weeny Owl - Jul 25, 2005 9:48 am (#198 of 530)

The Unbreakable Vow is confusing in a way. It isn't one vow, in a way.

Draco is looking increasingly haunted throughout the year. Snape questions him. But what exactly is Snape after? Is the task that Voldemort gave Draco singular? Did he only tell Draco to kill Dumbledore? Did he tell Draco to fix the Vanishing Cabinet so that Death Eaters could infiltrate Hogwarts? What it both?

It seems to me that what has Draco so nervous isn't just killing Dumbledore but in getting the Vanishing Cabinet repaired. That's what it seems to me that he and Snape are arguing about after Slughorn's party. Draco is angry that Crabbe and Goyle were given detention because he didn't have his lookouts and was caught by Filch.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but JKR has given us quite a mystery with Snape.

Did he know about the Vanishing Cabinet? Did he know about having to kill Dumbledore? Did he know that Death Eaters would infiltrate the castle? What were Draco's instructions?

Draco completed part of his mission with the Vanishing Cabinet. Is Voldemort going to overlook him not killing Dumbledore? Will Snape and Draco be on the run from the Order, the Ministry, and Voldemort himself? Did Dumbledore sacrifice himself to save Draco or was there something going on?

There are just too many ways to look at Snape and Draco's actions that night, and there are too many variables in what exactly Snape felt his was obligated to do with the Unbreakable Vow.

With Snape knowing how to use a Patronus to contact the Order, he might be able to explain his actions to someone who wouldn't kill him on sight. He might be able to bring Draco over to the Order's side since Draco does know Occlumency.

Whatever is going on with Snape isn't black and white.

- - - - - - - - - -
Bkfly - Jul 25, 2005 9:51 am (#199 of 530)

Is there a reference to DD being in Gryffindor? If so what book was it in? Thanks!

- - - - - - - - - -
HP Em - Jul 25, 2005 9:57 am (#200 of 530)

I've tried skimming the nearly 200 posts and haven't seen anything of this sort but forgive me if it has already been mentioned...

The question that we should ask ourselves (that I haven't seen yet, I don't think) is Why was Snape evesdropping on DD in the Hog's Head? This to me, is a vital piece of information in trust and also in the whole spectrum of the story. Surely we are not buying Trelawney's reasoning for Snape being there-- to get tips on how to get the job--- that seems foolish and very Trelawneyish. So why was he there? He couldn't have known what he would over hear in there. So I believe that his job for LV was to spy on DD and follow him wherever he went. It is the only logical reason I can come up with for having Snape in that location on that night. He must have thought he was handing LV quite a gift after hearing the first half of the prophesy when in fact it led to LV's first downfall. I doubt DD would have just let him get away with it. I'm sure he went to Snape and tried to convince him to come over to his side. Whatever reasons were given for trust at that time are all well and good but why did DD continue to trust Snape? Well I think the answer lies in the memories and the pensive.

JKR said in her interview that the pensive acts to allow a person to view the situation from a 3rd party perspective. So although DD and Harry are the only ones who know the whole prophesy. Wouldn't the prophesy still be whole in Trelawney's memory? She was there, so if she was to view her memory from a 3rd party perspective would she not, too then know the prophesy? Now Snape is well aware of how the Pensive works and he even had it at his disposal when he was teaching Harry Occlumancy. And yet LV spent one year trying in any way that he knew how to get a hold of that prophesy. He even went as far as having Harry enter his mind to him into the MoM and risked exposure of his return to the WW by going to the MoM in the end. All he REALLY needed to do was to have Snape capture Trelawney, remove her memory of the event and view it himself in the pensive. Wouldn't that have been drastically easier? So DD may trust Snape for the fact that he did NOT allow LV to hear the whole prophesy, something he wanted very very much. It would seem from that, that Snape was, atleast until the end of OotP working for the Order. It justify's DD's trust in Snape.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 201 to 250)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:26 am

David Breeze - Jul 25, 2005 10:44 am (#201 of 530)
Hi,

I have two very important questions that must be asked to determine the truth about Snape:

1) Was he already potions master at the time he overheard the Prophesy? 2)How much time passed between when Voldemort was informed about the prophesy to the time when he went off to kill Harry?

Please answer my questions. If they are answered, I can share my Snape theory with everyone!

David

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 25, 2005 10:56 am (#202 of 530)

Edited Jul 25, 2005 11:46 am
david breeze-

According to Trelawney, no, he was looking for a job.

Time (no expert here) seems to be about a year. Snape tells Bellatrix he had 16 years of info to tell LV when he returned (at the end of book 4). Harry is 14, and Harry was about a year at the time of the attack. Doing this from memory, sure someone has a more exact answer... Also, Harry wasn't born yet when the prophesy was made, and was a yearish at LV attack. So a year and a few months...

- - - - - - - - - -
Ag Hart - Jul 25, 2005 12:26 pm (#203 of 530)

David Breeze, in OotP Snape tells Umbridge that he has been at Hogwarts 14 years (Ch. 17), one year less than Harry's age. Thus, he wouldn't have been a teacher at the time of the prophecy.

Bkfly, in the first book, on the train to Hogwarts, Hermione says she heard that DD was in Griffindor. The knocker to his office is also a Griffin.

Weeny Owl, in an earlier post on this thread,I commented that Snape probably did not know of the plan for the reasons given, and like you I do not think things are as they seem to be where Snape is concerned.

M.A. Grimmett, at present I'm leaning to the idea that Snape is loyal to the Order. There is of course a remote chance that he is loyal to no one other than himself and is playing one side against the other to further his own ambitions. (Sorry, Gina.) When one dark lord disappears, another emerges. The one scene that stays in my mind, however, that points to his loyalty is the scene with Fudge at the end of Goblet. He was so adamant that Fudge believe that Voldemort had returned, going so far as to show the dark mark on his arm and exposing himself as a one-time Death Eater to all present,including Harry.

- - - - - - - - - -
Bkfly - Jul 25, 2005 12:46 pm (#204 of 530)

Thanks Ag Hart!

- - - - - - - - - -
M A Grimmett - Jul 25, 2005 12:50 pm (#205 of 530)

That's an excellent point, Ag Hart. I'd forgotten about that.

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Jul 25, 2005 2:21 pm (#206 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Eunice - In reference to your post #190, I completely agree with your assessment of Snape's worst memory and have come to same conclusions about the potential importance of a Lily/Snape connection. Brilliant in pointing out Lupin's exact words in the James/Snape rivalry. Jealousy is a different emotion than hatred, isn't it? I know we are all respectful of others' opinions and this forum is a place where we can have fun with each other and explore our love of the series. Some have called this theory "wacky" and even impossible. It's not. There is some compelling evidence for it in the HP canon, so until HP7 clears all this up or JKR herself poo-poos this theory in the future interviews she'll do over the next two years, I'm going to be a believer.

- - - - - - - - - -
Staffer21 - Jul 26, 2005 9:57 am (#207 of 530)

Would it all be possible, that Snape found out who Voldemort was going to kill? When he found out it was going to be Lily's son, Snape told Lily how to save her son. Snape would know he could not stop Voldemort from killing Lily or Harry's dad, but maybe he told them how they could save their son.

If that was the case, then Snape had a hand in both defeating Voldemort and creating Harry Potter. Would that be enough to forgive Snape for the things he has done and a strong enough reason for DD to trust him?

BTW, I don't think Snape is evil. I think the potion was going to kill DD anyways and DD knew it.

- - - - - - - - - -
M A Grimmett - Jul 26, 2005 10:38 am (#208 of 530)

That's an excellent thought, Staffer. It hadn't occurred to me at all, but it's a heck of a good reason.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 26, 2005 10:58 am (#209 of 530)

Staffer 21-

Speaking as a mom, I don't think Lilly needed to be told to sacrifice herself for her son. She just did it. She's a mom.

- - - - - - - - - -
Staffer21 - Jul 26, 2005 11:00 am (#210 of 530)

T - I am sure she would have jumped in front of the spell any ways. However, perhaps there still had to be a spell to go along with it in order for it to kill Voldemort and give Harry extra protection through out his life.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 26, 2005 11:13 am (#211 of 530)

Staffer-

I guess it is possible. I don't mean to object too heavily, but this is a pretty big theme throughout the books. I think JK was going for something a bit more pure and simple when she made love the strongest magic. A mother's love and sacrifice saving Harry's life seems more powerful (as a concept) than love, sacrifice and a special spell.

I'm all for giving Snape credit for trying to save Harry (though I think he was really trying to save Lilly) by giving info to DD, but giving Snape credit for saving Harry sort of takes away from Lilly's sacrifice and power as a mom.

- - - - - - - - - -
Staffer21 - Jul 26, 2005 11:18 am (#212 of 530)

T Vrana -

More then likely you are right, but if Snape is really still good, I am not sure what reason DD had to trust him with out question against everyone else.

- - - - - - - - - -
Wizadora - Jul 26, 2005 11:34 am (#213 of 530)

Reading through some of these posts, a few back someone suggested that DD wouldn't give Snape the DADA job because it would bring about a relapse. BUT We know now from HBP and from DD that the job is cursed - noone can last longer than a year. THAT is why Snape couldn't have the job, because DD couldn't afford to loose Snape until a plan had been formed between them.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 26, 2005 11:34 am (#214 of 530)

Edited Jul 26, 2005 12:19 pm
Staffer- I think DD gave us the answer when he told Harry that love is "The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's".

It would seem that if DD had something "simple" like an Unbreakable Vow with Snape, he could tell everyone. But DD doesn't tell anyone so it must be somehow very personal to Snape. So with love as the only protection and DD telling Harry that regret over revealing the prophesy had something to do with Snape returning, my guess is that you are on the right path with Snape trying to help the Potter's. But rather than trying to save Harry, I think Snape "returned" (not literally, he was already at Hogwart's, but returned to the good side by warning DD) when he realized Lilly's family was the target of the prophesy info he gave to LV, because he loved Lilly.

Not necessarily right, but a thought...

Wizadora- I agree that the curse is why DD would not give Snape the job. And the fact that he finally did would seem to be another clue that DD and Snape were working together. DD knew Snape would have to leave by the end of the year, why else give him the job now?

- - - - - - - - - -
Wizadora - Jul 26, 2005 12:16 pm (#215 of 530)

Exactly - Which also goes back to what Verbina was saying about Snape talking in the past tense to Bella and Cissy about why DD had not given him the job. The plan was already in effect then before Snape made the Unbreakable vow.

- - - - - - - - - -
Verbina - Jul 26, 2005 12:30 pm (#216 of 530)

Image by me. Base by Nefertiti at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
That is what it sounded like to me. The entire thing was already planned out in the time (at least) from the fight at the MoM and the meeting of Bella, Narcissa and Snape.

Curious actually. Being that the position is cursed, that means that no matter what had happened, no matter what choice Snape made on the Astronomy tower, he was destined to not be there in the DADA position by the 7th year.

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 26, 2005 12:36 pm (#217 of 530)

I am not sure this whole Dark arts and Snape thing holds as much water as we may have thought at one time. Snape was very knowledgeable in the Dark Arts but he obviousy was capable enough at potions that he could teach through NEWT levels and was able to make potions that could do good, do harm or do nothing and fool people. His knowledge of Dark Arts was dangerous enough--if he really wanted to teach it he could have applied to Durmstang or anywhere else where it could have been used--

I think that it was very much to create an illusion or an impression--all part of a bigger picture. I think if Snape was the DA teacher and he started tutoring jr. DE's someone might notice--even the portraits, the ghosts--how much secrecy is there in a castle where everything moves, talks, things and has an opinion--right down to the decorations?

Now to the point DD has been making all along--choices--Snape made some--for better or worse we have yet to see.

- - - - - - - - - -
Wizadora - Jul 26, 2005 12:38 pm (#218 of 530)

Well, if he had not killed DD, then it would be known that he was not a DE, and I would imagine that he would have to go into hiding and being a teacher in a school wouldn't be the best place to hide really. Or if we are to believe that if he had not killed DD for Draco then he would have been dead because of the unbreakable vow. In any event it seems that he could no longer remain at Hogwarts.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 26, 2005 12:48 pm (#219 of 530)

Deb-

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. Snape was at Hogwarts because LV asked him to take a post there to keep an eye on DD.

Snape is obviously very talented with potions, from a very young age, and with Dark Arts (he's who DD turns to when he needs Dark Arts help). He's a very accomplished occlumens. In fact, he's very talented period. Was I the only one surprised by how easily Snape handled Harry? Up 'til now I thought he was the just the greasy potions, wannabe a dark arts teacher, Order spy. Suddenly we see he's much more.

Interesting that it's coming down to 3 halfbloods. One good, one bad, one...both, redeemed (on the road to redemption, think he still owes Harry big time)?

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 26, 2005 1:05 pm (#220 of 530)

LV wouldn't be able to influence Snape's being offered a position--obviously he couldn't even force Dumbledore to consider HIM for a positiion. What constitutes true remorse--what is the point at which we believe someone is truly sorry--certainly not the words themselves, but in the actions--- Snape telling Dumbledore he felt really kinda bad that James was toast and Lily was french-fried and Harry had a really bad booboo....wouldn't have been nearly enoguh proof.

He was probably also a little "concerned" that he gave LV info that was supposed to protect him and instead put a hurt on him. If I were Snape I might have wanted big old DD to protect his behind from whatever wrath might result--

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 26, 2005 1:12 pm (#221 of 530)

Deb-

Still not following your point. No, LV couldn't influence DD to give Snape a position. But you mentioned Snape could have worked at Durmstang. My point was that Snape wasn't looking for a DADA job at Durmstang because LV asked him to try to get a job at Hogwarts to keep an eye on DD. Or at least that is Snape's story.

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 26, 2005 1:18 pm (#222 of 530)

LOL my point was that Snape couldn't have wanted to teach DADA all that much or he would have found a way--somewhere, somehow...

But one might see with the Occlumency lessons that he has too short a temper for DADA ....TEACHING--he likes to insult students and while that may make someone better in potions it would probably actually harm someone who needed confidence in a life and death situation.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 26, 2005 1:33 pm (#223 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Well, we don't see much of Snape's DADA class, so we can assume he's his nasty self, not more, and nothing bad happens. What was the fuss about "bringing the worst out of him" ? And it's probably as easy to harm someone in a potion classroom than in a DADA classroom.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 26, 2005 3:47 pm (#224 of 530)

Not sure what thread to put this on, but as this thread has "Trust", "Dumbledore", and "Snape" in its title, I'll post it here.

It seems that Dumbledore doesn't trust anyone in the Order enough to let them know about the Horcruxes, or to bring them along as backup when he goes on these very dangerous missions to find and destroy them. I could be wrong about this and we'll find out in Book 7, but that's what it looks like to me right now.

He does seem to trust Snape to patch him up afterwards, though. Not Madame Pomfrey or anyone else from the Order, but just Snape.

So how much does Dumbledore trust Snape, and does Snape know about the Horcruxes?

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Jul 26, 2005 4:55 pm (#225 of 530)

I think Snape was in love with Lily. I think He was at Godric's Hollow and I think he's the reason that Voldy gave Lily the choice to live. I think he turned because he really didn't think Voldy would kill Lily, but when she died anyways, he lost his love for the dark Lord. I think there's more to him "murdering" Dumbledore than meets the eye. AND, I think that he hates Harry because Harry is a constant reminder that Lily chose James instead of him (Snape). It's a romantic idea, but that's my theory.

- - - - - - - - - -
Brella W - Jul 26, 2005 6:04 pm (#226 of 530)

Ok I have definitely been opened to some new ideas I think that Snape did warn DD about LV's attack on the Potters. I think that Snape may have heard it all and when he went to tell LV he didn't tell him all. I think the pensive is a great idea. Because in OoP DD gave the pensive to Snape to use. I also agree that Snape like Harry is DD's man through and through. I also think the revulsion that Snape showed on his face was at the thought that Snape had to do what he really did not feel I think it was being forced to kill DD not that he hated DD. I mean come on now who actually believes that Snape ever would have gotten behind Harry if Harry was indeed a strong dark wizard. I think Snape only helps Harry because of DD and out of regret. I also think Snape saves and assists Harry way too much to be a true follower of LV. What do you think everyone.

- - - - - - - - - -
Boris the Bewildered - Jul 26, 2005 6:06 pm (#227 of 530)

Edited by S.E. Jones Aug 8, 2005 7:31 pm
Because he regreted causing Harry's parents death. DD never lies, but sometimes gives incomplete answers. In this case, the regret was expressed not by words, but deeds. Say, Snape was with Voldemort in Godric's Hollow and was the one informing DD first hand of what happened, giving him the chance to save baby Harry. Which in my book still doesn't absolve Snape of anything, espcially considering what he tried to do to Sirius.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 27, 2005 6:01 am (#228 of 530)

Brandi- I agree, I think Snape loved Lilly. Regret over the James' death may have been real, but strong enough to lure Snape back to the right side? If DD was right in trusting Snape (and I think he was), it had to be something stronger, and DD said love was the only thing strong enough to protect someone from the lure of power like LV's. We know Snape didn't love James...

- - - - - - - - - -
rambkowalczyk - Jul 27, 2005 6:06 am (#229 of 530)

Brandi,

I have no problems with the idea that there was a relationship between Snape and Lily. The idea that Snape's worst memory may be more about calling Lily a Mudblood than being targeted as a victim by James and Sirius makes more sense since it seems as though Lily had access to the half-blood prince's notes.

I don't think however that Snape's turning point came at Lily's death. At that time Snape was working at Hogwarts. I don't think Dumbledore would have hired him as a teacher before then knowing he was a Death Eater. Dumbledore definately knew he was a spy since he was caught eavesdropping on Tralawney prophecy. Also in book 4 when Karkaroff accuses Snape of being a Death Eater, Dumbledore says Snape rejoined our side before Voldemort's fall.

It's possible that Snape told Dumbledore in the August before the Halloween deaths of Voldemort's plans, then as a result of this got hired as a teacher.

What concerns me is the word rejoined. This implies that at one time Snape was fighting Voldemort on Dumbledore's side. Did Snape's original reason have anything to do with his Muggle father. We've assumed that Snape's father is a scary person, but what if the person that Harry saw in Snape's memory was not his father but his mother's brother yelling at his mother because she married a Muggle.

Someone earlier suggested that the reason that Dumbledore doesn't tell Harry why he trusts Snape is that it involves protecting another person. What if Snape is protecting his father?

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 27, 2005 6:21 am (#230 of 530)

Edited Jul 27, 2005 7:37 am
rambkowalcyzk-

I agree. I think the turning point came when Snape realized Lilly and James were the target, not when Lilly died. There is a delay between Snape hearing some of the prophesy and LV finding the Potters of over a year. This fits with DD having someone (Snape)close to LV telling him (DD) that Black might not be trustworthy as Secret Keeper (they know someone close to the Potters is passing info to LV). So Snape came back to try to save Lilly.

The regret part comes when he is not successful and knows his info caused Lilly's death. But regret alone is not enough, it was Snape's love and his attempts to save the one he loves DD would have trusted.

It also helps explain why Snape hates Black in POA (enough to want to take him to the Death Eaters for a kiss), he still thinks he was working with LV to find the Potters. He also tells Harry his father died because he was too arrogant to believe he might have been wrong about Black. Snape was trying to save Lilly, he thinks James' arrogance got in the way. So not only does Snape blame James for Lilly's death, but also for making him (Snape) part of a murder. That could make looking at Harry, who looks just like his James with Lilly's eyes, tough for Snape.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 27, 2005 7:21 am (#231 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
So DD's death would be like a replay for Snape, with the difference he was the hand which killed instead of the hand which leads to the target ?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 27, 2005 7:30 am (#232 of 530)

I would be dubious about trusting Snape if the only reason he switched sides was to protect Lily, for whom he might have had a secret love. That would mean that Snape didn't care who got murdered as long as it was someone he didn't know or like. Snape's reasons then are selfish, and his allegiance could switch on a what's-in-it-for-me basis. He would only be trustworthy if he could have made a compassionate leap, and started caring that some other guy's love or child was being murdered. Is Snape that empathetic?

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 27, 2005 7:59 am (#233 of 530)

Edited Jul 27, 2005 8:55 am
I think if good is white and bad is black, Snape is definately grey. But I would not underestimate the amount of faith DD put in love. Once it became personal for Snape, he would be able to develop more empathy for others (but again, he's not a great guy. His childhood probably taught him not to love but to bully and shut down his emotions. We see the bullying with students, and he's a great occlumens because he has such emotional control). But until he knew love he had no capacity to care about others. Don't we all learn to love selfishly first and grow into empathy for others? (Ask a very young child why they love mommy and it is because she feeds him/her).

With DD gone I would question if Snape can stay on the lighter side if grey. But ultimately will he have to give in to Lilly's (Harry's) eyes the way Slughorn did? And pay for his past mistakes...

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Jul 27, 2005 8:54 am (#234 of 530)

Dumbledore says that his mistakes are huger than most - the results are more devastating.

If he made a mistake trusting Snape, it would make sense that the consequences would be huge - Dumbledore dies, Harry is left alone to finish his task.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ag Hart - Jul 27, 2005 10:38 am (#235 of 530)

I'm confused. Are we certain that Snape was already a teacher when Harry's parents were murdered? When Snape tells Umbridge that he has been teaching at Hogwarts 14 years, I took it to mean that his tenure began the same time that Harry joined the Dursleys. He could have joined the staff when school began in September, but that wouldn't give him much time to spy on Dumbledore before the late October murders of the Potters. I even thought that he may have joined Hogwarts when Voldemort's recent killings opened a position. I know that Dumbledore says that Snape turned spy before Voldemort was vanquished, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was teaching yet. Is there other evidence that clarifies this?

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Jul 27, 2005 11:22 am (#236 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
You're right Ag Hart, Snape could have been a spy for DD well before being a teacher, and been a spy for LV when he began to teach.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Jul 27, 2005 11:47 am (#237 of 530)

I totally agree that Snape does way too much good to be bad. In GOF, he actually shows his mark to Fudge and pretty much loses it when Fudge won't believe them. I don't think he would have had to go that far to continue his charade if he was lying. Also, I agree with the wonderful theory about his look of "revulsion." Here's a thought. Did DD know that he was going to die that night. Is that why he wanted Snape there. Did he know that Harry needed to do the rest on his own, and did he know that there would need to be someone in the inside to help things along? Killing DD would have erased any doubts that anyone, including Bellatrix would have about his loyalty. If DD is going to die anyways from the poison, may as well have Snape do it and seal his chances to stay close to the DE's. gosh I'm going all hairbrained now. I'm so desperately wanting him to turn out good.

- - - - - - - - - -
Dani - Jul 27, 2005 11:47 am (#238 of 530)

Let me just start by re-uttering the fact that I have never liked Snape at all.

First... -I think that Snape is working for DD and has been since DD first started to trust Snape. I think that Snape has some major personality issues to work through. In which we probably will never see.(I don't know, Does the wizarding world have anti-depressants and mood altering drugs?).

Second... -DD was not begging Snape to save him but to kill him, ensuring that Snape will still be able to help Harry by knowing what Voldemort is up to at all times. I am sure that Harry will have a hard time excepting Snapes help, so I think that Snape will have conjure up a creative bone to figure out how he is going to be able to give Harry the information he needs without Harry knowing. -Yet, In the end Harry will know that Snape was a DD man, maybe not through and through, but still a DD man.

Third... -I agree with all of you that think that there is a debt owed or a unbreakable vow made between Snape and one of Harry's parents. ---The reason I say one of his parents is, If I am correct, that James Potter saved Snapes life at one point. So would that not constitute and debt owed? ---Although I am still leading toward Snape and Lily being related.

Fourth... -DD does not lie, yes he will withhold information, but he does not lie. (I am a DD woman through and through). -DD has his reasons for keeping information from one person or another. None of us will know why until the next book. Which is absolute agony to think that we will have to wait two more years for that. (That just rots bogey's)

Maybe I should post this somewhere else I do not know. I know that parts of this is probably redundant, but it is what I think.

P.S. I love reading all of your thoughts, except the ones that suggest DD is a liar.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Jul 27, 2005 12:19 pm (#239 of 530)

I agree. I think DD is sometimes mistaken when he withholds info. For example, DD even says in OOP that he should have told Harry somethings sooner, but he was afraid Harry wasn't ready to know them. I don't think he ever lied. Not intentionally anyways. I don't even think he did so accidentally. I would have never thought of Lily and Snape being related. Weird, but wonderful to think about. I do think, however, that if DD had told Harry alot of things from the start, we might have only had three or five books instead of seven. A depressing thought, I know. I guess it all boils down to us trusting JKR. She's earned it, now we just have to wait to see that she follows through.

- - - - - - - - - -
Surtseystwin - Jul 27, 2005 12:55 pm (#240 of 530)

Agramante wrote:

Snape seems to despise companionship much like Tom/Voldemort does


I can't agree with that. Snape seems genuinely pleased when Professor McGonacle returns at the end of OotP.

- - - - - - - - - -
Stellar Hawk - Jul 27, 2005 1:53 pm (#241 of 530)

Edited Jul 27, 2005 2:28 pm
"Severus...Please..." Please what?

I agree that DD would never beg for his own life, not like that. But was he begging for Snape to kill him as part of some pre-determined plan as has been suggested? Why then is Harry so frightened at the tone of DD's voice? If DD knew this was coming, why the note of terror?

Maybe DD is afraid that Snape will kill Harry too, or at least betray his presence to the DE's? Snape knows about the invisibility cloak, and he's too sharp to miss the significance of the two broomsticks. Also, Snape seems to have a knack for sensing Harry's presence even when he's hiding under the cloak. Maybe DD is saying, "Please...spare Harry"? And so Snape quickly hustles the DE's out of the tower & out of the castle after the deed is done...before the DE's can realize what he has realized--there is an invisible witness at the tower! Later, Snape tells Draco to run and turns to confront Harry...but he only defends himself. Why? Maybe because he wants to make sure the other DE's see that he is handling Harry personally and won't get involved. He has a golden opportunity to kill Harry...and doesn't do it. On first reading I thought he might be changing his mind (and planning to off Harry anyway) just before Buckbeak attacked...but when Snape finally does attack, the spell that hits Harry only hurts him--it doesn't kill him.

I like the theory that Snape is neither black nor white, but a very ambiguous gray. I wholeheartedly agree. He betrayed DD and killed him (deplorable!)...but as he was bound by the Unbreakable Vow he made to Narcissa, he really had no choice. And he granted DD's last request... if I am reading it right. If so, then HBP ends very similar to the way it begins: Snape puts his life on the line and does something he hates doing for the sake of someone who really doesn't deserve it (in his opinion)...all because of a plea for mercy born out of love. Would rather explain his fury at being called a coward, I think...

Maybe I'm all wet here, but I hope not. I'd like to believe that Snape is still redeemable, even if he is a traitorous git.

- - - - - - - - - -
Jon Parker - Jul 27, 2005 2:03 pm (#242 of 530)

OK, I just thought of something and I want to throw it out before I lose track of it... which means I am not taking the time to research GoF to get my specifics but... After DD and company rescue Harry from the fake Moody we still see Snape's face in the FOE GLASS even though the fake Moody is unconscious. Would this therefore mean that Snape is a Foe of those still in the room and conscious (DD, MM, and Harry)?

- - - - - - - - - -
Stellar Hawk - Jul 27, 2005 2:24 pm (#243 of 530)

Foe Glasses and Sneakoscopes can be hoodwinked. ('Moody' says so several chapters before that scene.) I wouldn't take the reflections as conclusive evidence one way or the other. It is interesting though, the various reactions as characters enter the room: McGonagall goes straight to Harry, DD goes to the fake Moody, and Snape...is busy looking in the mirror.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 27, 2005 3:23 pm (#244 of 530)

Ag Hart-

Could be. He told Umbridge he had been teaching for 14 years at the very beginning of the term so I assumed he wasn't counting the current year (HP5 when Harry was 15). That would mean he started the year Harry was born.

It would also match what Snape told Bellatrix, he had 16 years of info on DD when LV returned at the end of Book 4 (Harry almost 15). I guess he could have info from before working at Hogwarts, but I assumed it was at Hogwarts, as LV had asked him to take a position to spy on DD. Maybe there's a reference somewhere else that helps...

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Jul 27, 2005 3:38 pm (#245 of 530)

Stellar Hawk

"Also, Snape seems to have a knack for sensing Harry's presence even when he's hiding under the cloak."

Could this be due to the fact that he is such a talented and accomplished legilmense? I'm not sure how the process works, but could he actually "know" or sense that Harry is there because he can "sense" that there are more thoughts floating around an area than there should be?

- - - - - - - - - -
Stellar Hawk - Jul 27, 2005 3:49 pm (#246 of 530)

Brandi,

Good question. It could be something to do with Legilimency. Maybe Snape picks up on Harry's fear/hate, which Harry seems to give off in almost palpable waves whenever Snape is around. Or it could be something else...perhaps he is bound to Harry in some way. Snape certainly seems to have a knack for turning up whenever Harry or Draco is in trouble.

I am betting there will be more about this in book 7.

- - - - - - - - - -
Lina - Jul 27, 2005 5:12 pm (#247 of 530)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
I must say that I did not read all the posts carefully, I was just trying to find if someone else has already put out my theory. I just found Septentrion mentioning it few times and Madame Pomfrey agreeing with it. I'm just surprised that other people didn't find it interesting. Because to me, it makes sense and makes it all fit.

I don't believe that Voldemort gave Snape one of his horcruxes, but I can very well imagine that there were more than one DE that confided with him. As someone mentions, Belatrix says "The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious - if Lucius hadn't-" and this might have been one of the horcruxes. Since she blames Lucius, I think that she is speaking about the Diary. So, when she went to Azkaban, she might have entrusted her sister with the Diary and not telling her that it was a horcrux. What Malfoy saw in it was a magical Diary that brings the person to open the CoS. He wanted it opened and gave it to Ginny. I don't think that any part of that soul could have been left in Ginny after Harry destroyed the Diary. Snape might have even not know that it was Diary that was a horcrux, but I'm sure that he is just as skilled Legilymens as he is Occlumens (JKR shows it to us in a huge number of situations) and it is possible that he met Bella short time after she got the horcrux, she might have been so happy that she was not able to hide it. She might not know about other horcruxes, nobody did more then one of them before. If RAB is really Regulus, it is possible that he confided with Snape about his horcrux at the moment that he found out that he doesn't want to be a DE. That was enough for Snape to come to the conclusion that who knows how many horcruxes Voldemort made? Since it is now obvious that it was really Snape who overheard the prophecy, I think that it is very probably that he is the one who told DD that Voldemort is after Harry. I guess that he saw it as a way to repay James his life debt. I think that at that moment he told DD about several horcruxes that exist. That information is very important because it shows the right way to destroy Voldemort. There is no way that he would give that information if he were still on Voldemort's side. So I really think that that was enough for DD to trust him no matter what else he does.

I think that Snapes spying for the Order was trying to figure out what the other horcruxes are.

At the battle in the Mom, DD was perfectly healthy and was not seriously injured. Some time later, I think less then a month, he shows at the Dursleys with the black hand and a ring on it. Ring was destroyed only later, but I had the feeling that it was what harmed the arm. That would mean that in the time of that month DD found the ring. In the 2nd chapter, Snape mentions DD's injury, but makes it seam as it happened during the battle and doesn't mention himself trying to heal it, of course.

P.O.P., I liked the idea of the potion being a horcrux and killing DD meaning the destroying of it. I'm just not sure, it seams to simple.

I'm sure that DD spent 16 years in trying to figure out what the horcruxes are and how many of them. Slughorne's memory surely helped with the number.

The idea about Voldemort planning to make the last one by killing Harry might be an information brought by Snape too.

I, as many others, found it curious that DD doesn't confide with McGonnagall, I have tried to bring it up several times, especially on the DD thread. It seems that he trusts Snape even more than other teachers. He doesn't want even Harry to say it to anybody of them. I can understand it as security measure, but it is just interesting how much he trusts him. Maybe because he already knows the information that DD doesn't want to share with anybody else.

Horcruxes are banned from Hogwarts, in a way that students can't find anything about them there. They seem to be something too dark. People don't want to say Voldemort's name out loud, but it seems to me that even people who are able to say his name are not able to think about horcruxes. I think that DD waited as long as he could to inform Harry about them because that is something that should be avoided, and of course, because he didn't want Voldemort to know that he knows.

Now, there is a question if there is the seventh part of soul still in Voldemort or it has been destroyed when the curse rebounded? Was Voldemort able to make any more horcruxes after he failed to kill Harry? Did he use one of them when he was remaking his body? But, maybe those questions are for another thread.

Sorry for the long post.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 27, 2005 5:17 pm (#248 of 530)

stellar hawk-

Even though I think Snape is a shade of grey, I do not think he betrayed DD. For lots of reasons that I've gone into before so I won't again here, but mostly because I can't beleive that DD was the only person who couldn't see through Snape, and I also don't think (or at least I really hope), JK wouldn't let Malfoy have the last word on DD...

"He's a double agent, you stupid old man, he isn't working for you, you just think he is."

There is something more that DD knew, (I'm sticking with the Snape loved Lilly theory and came back, DD gave him a chance to redeem himself nad he is still working on that redemption).

Plus the surface plot points right to Snape being a really bad guy. Now when has JK ever pointed to the truth with such bright lights? Never. There is always something just below the surface...All the clues are there...

- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Jul 27, 2005 5:38 pm (#249 of 530)

Snape is not a relative of Lily's. Rowling has made it absolutely clear on many occasions and in the books that Harry has no living relatives except the Dursleys.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 27, 2005 5:44 pm (#250 of 530)

Edited Jul 27, 2005 6:50 pm
Susurro- Good point (wasn't implying above that they were related, I think Snape had a non-relative love for Lilly)

Lena-

On Snape and the horcruxes. I'm not so sure. While DD doesn't always reveal everything, he usually gives at least part of the truth and was telling Harry most everything he knew. I don't think he would have taken complete credit for the horcrux theory if Snape had told him. He probably wouldn't have told Harry it was Snape, but it seems he would have said he had heard LV was making horcruxes or something like that.

I do wonder why DD didn't tell the Order about them. I can see not taking them with him to destroy them, he needed the castle guarded, but not tell anyone but Ron and Hermione? Still trying to think that one through.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 251 to 300)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:28 am

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 27, 2005 7:40 pm (#251 of 530)
With all the Snape & Lily speculation going on I wonder if anyone has the copy of HBP with the potions book cover? The reason I ask is that when we were shown the covers I thought I saw the name "Lily" to the left of Libatius.Now that we know this is Snapes old book,is her name on it?

- - - - - - - - - -
HP Em - Jul 27, 2005 7:41 pm (#252 of 530)

Now, there is a question if there is the seventh part of soul still in Voldemort or it has been destroyed when the curse rebounded? Was Voldemort able to make any more horcruxes after he failed to kill Harry? Did he use one of them when he was remaking his body? But, maybe those questions are for another thread.

Lina-- good point. I have been wondering the same thing. SOMETHING died that night that he tried to kill Harry and the fact that he didn't cease to exist altogether probably lies in the fact that he had created horcruxes. But it would seem to me that Harry has infact destroyed 2, the one that was in the diary and the one that was in LV's body the night the curse rebounded. And isn't the point of a horcrux to have a backup for if your original dies?? So if he had made 6 to start with and one was destroyed the night he tried to kill Harry then maybe he went and got one of his "spares". Sorry, this doesn't have anything to do with Snape.

- - - - - - - - - -
TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 27, 2005 8:09 pm (#253 of 530)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"SOMETHING died that night"

I think what was destoryed that night was LV's mortal body, incinerated by the force of the rebounded AK. Remember LV's AK that he tried to hit Dumbledore with and but "missed, instead hitting the security guard's desk, which burst into flame."

I think the only thing left was whatever amount of ragged, torn soul LV had left in him at that time.

"See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and vapor ... I have form only when I can share another's body..." SS

Now, what was the topic? Oh yes, why Dumbledore trusted Snape? No idea!

...toddles off elsewhere...

- - - - - - - - - -
Ag Hart - Jul 27, 2005 8:12 pm (#254 of 530)

T Vrana-- Thanks for your input. Snape's reply certainly is ambiguous. It would clear up the matter if Snape had said, "This is my fourteenth (or fifteenth) year." I took it to mean that this was his fourteenth year because Umbridge asks," ' Now...how long have been teaching at Hogwarts?'" (Scholastic,363). The present perfect progressive tense expresses action that begins in the past and includes the present. It expresses ongoing action (although as we know, Snape's tenure comes to an abrupt end). I placed a lot of weight on the question's grammatical form, but who knows?

Brandi-- Not only is Snape insistent with Fudge and exposing himself as a Death Eater in front of Harry, he also blanches when Dumbledore sends him off to rejoin Voldemort as we now certainly know he does. This does not suggest a man who is in league with Voldemort, at least not at this point. I suppose he could have truly rejoined Voldemort if he saw him as the victor and wanted to be on the winning side.

To play devil's advocate for a moment-- There are three things that do cast suspicion on Snape. 1-He attacks Flitwick. 2- He easily gets through the barrier that the Death Eaters created into the tower. 3- The Death Eaters, including Fenrir, seem frightened of him. I had even entertained the notion that it wasn't really Snape on the tower at all, but a disguised Voldemort. I rejected that quickly as being illogical based on other evidence. Having said all of this, I still think Snape is loyal to DD. I just wonder what the "iron clad" reason is that DD trusts Snape. Harry's response to those gathered in the hospital didn't sound convincing to me.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 27, 2005 8:45 pm (#255 of 530)

Edited Jul 27, 2005 9:23 pm
Ag Hart-

Devil's advocate-

1) He did attack Flitwick, but if he was really all bad, wouldn't he have killed Flitwick, and the "mudblood" Hermione? I guess it could be argued he was waiting to see what happened, but how would he be able to explain stunning Flitwick under any circumstances? I think he knew he was leaving. If that is true, and he's a DE, seems like he would have taken Flitwick, Hermione and Luna out. Instead he stunned Flitwick and told the others to take care of him, keeping all three out of harm's way.

2) The barrier- bugs me, too. Like the barrier in the cave seems like you needed a certain intention to get through, or a Dark Mark as Harry? surmised. Something there, not sure what yet.

3) DEs afraid-Well, I think it is clear that Snape is actually a much more powerful wizard than has been shown in previous books. But DDs wrath was horrible to see as well (Book 5)

The iron clad reason. Regret alone seems weak. Have already gone into my theory before so I won't elaborate (already taking lots of space!) but DD said love is...

"The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's."

Who did Snape love? (Starts with an L ends with...oh, said I wasn't going there).

Plus, Snape already owed James for saving his life. What happens when you participate in the death of someone you owe...Maybe you have to look out for their orphaned son...even if you really, really, really don't like him...

- - - - - - - - - -
Ag Hart - Jul 27, 2005 9:18 pm (#256 of 530)

Thanks, T Vrana, I know I can always count on you to add your insights. As I said, I still think Snape is loyal--not good. The problem is that although I can find reasons for each of his "bad" actions, when added together they make me wonder if I'm wrong. There does seem to be something about Lily and Snape (even a bit about about Snape and Narcissa). Perhaps the something huge about Lily that JKR promised that we will find out in Book 7 relates to your theory--that and the significance of Lily's eyes. Also, the fact that Lily was also so good and innovative in Potions could be a clue.

- - - - - - - - - -
Lina - Jul 28, 2005 1:16 am (#257 of 530)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
T Vrana, I didn't get the feeling that DD took credit for the horcruxes to himself. I rather got a feeling that he took credit for collecting the pieces of the puzzle. I can very well imagine Snape coming to DD horrified with the thought that there are more than one horcrux. Just the fact that he was horrified with this idea would show that there is a bit of good in him. Probably DD overestimated that bit of good. It was DD then who found out that Tom talked with Slughorn about the horcruxes, who went to see Morfin in jail, who talked to Ogden. So, DD can take credit for collecting the pieces of the puzzle, but it was Snape who told him where to look for them. Snape handed DD the weapon against Voldemort. It is possible that DD was aware of the fact that Tom is the kind of guy who would make the horcrux, it might be the way that he defeated Grindelwald as well, but if he destroyed only one of Voldemort horcruxes, it wouldn't help at all in defeating Voldemort. So what Snape did (IMO), was putting DD alert. That doubtless shows that Snape wanted Voldemort defeated. I think that was enough for DD to trust him. I know that none of what I wrote is a cannon, but I guess that this is what I'm going to believe until the 7th book is out.

Now, I am aware that that maybe shouldn't have been enough. It is really interesting how both most powerful wizards trust Snape. His plan might be to defeat both of them. He might even use Harry to help him defeat Voldemort in the 7th book and then take the power to himself. That's the only scenario that I see him killed in the 7th book. Because, when Harry finds out about his plan he will have to kill him. If he is on the side of good, then he will have to stay (unnoticed) around Harry until the end and at the end, I see no more reason for him to die. He could go and live happily with Gina.

- - - - - - - - - -
The Sword and the Lion - Jul 28, 2005 6:27 am (#258 of 530)

I believe that Snape is still loyal to the Order. After Harry calls Snape a Coward, Snape is clearly insulted --

"DON'T" -- screamed Snape, "CALL ME COWARD!"

Now this is where I think Snape's true loyalty can be seen: Instead of casting a dark-arts spell which would have inevitabley been some form of a Cruico, Snape "slashed at the air: Harry felt a white-hot, whiplike something hit him across the face and was slammed backward into the ground. Spots of light burst in front of his eyes for a moment ..."

Despite Snape's rage, he used a fire based spell which Dumbledore used against Voldemort in the OotP. Although Snape delivered a love tap, I think that the fire based spell is the real clue where his loyalties are. I hope Snape and Harry can work it out -- if Snape is loyal, his death will be the most painful of all. Especially if Snape dies in an act of self-sacrifice.

- - - - - - - - - -
greta - Jul 28, 2005 6:30 am (#259 of 530)

deed done!
I think it is possible that DD and Snape had some sort of arrangement that Snape would kill DD. However I don't think that DD would have choosen this moment to die.

DD's offer to hekp Draco and hide his family seemed genuine, why offer this and then ask to be killed moments later? Also even though he was obviously weak I do not believe he would want to leave the school full of death eaters, there was a battle raging and he had no idea how it was progressing or what injuries had been sustained. Also he definitely would not have wanted Greyback on the loose who expressed such an interest in children. I think even a weak and dying DD is probably a match for several healthy wizards.

I am still undecided about Snape though - if snape and DD had some sort of plan, when was this plan devised? Was it as a result of Snape's unbreakable Vow with Narcissa or had it been in place prior to that? If it was as a result of he vow then this just seems strange to me - I know DD is not afraid of death, but not being frightened when death is staring you in the face and readily accepting someoen else (Snape) deciding you will die so he can maintain his appearance as a loyal DE seems odd. However the plan that Snape would kill Dd could have already been agreed, so when Snape made the vow he knew that he would be simply fullfilling his promise to DD and simultaneously keeping up appearances with the DE also.

I so much want to hate Snape but at the moment he is just too interesting!!

Also could Snape have told DD that LV was after the Potters - safe in the Knowledge that the Potters Secret Keeper was under LV's command, therefore he could pass vital information to DD safe in the knowledge that it would not make any difference. (Snape would not necessarily need to know who the secret keeper was -he, like everyone else assumed it was Sirius). As you cn see I am very undecided on Snape!

- - - - - - - - - -
Lina - Jul 28, 2005 7:38 am (#260 of 530)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Well, maybe it is worth mentioning: if all that Snape wanted was dead DD, then he could have not cured him after the curse of the ring.

I agree with you, Greta, that it sounds odd - agreeing between Snape and DD that Snape would kill him. It might have been a decision of the moment. Or DD already knew that he is about to die and killing him did not change much in his life, but it made DEs trust Snape. I'm sure that if it was possible to keep DD alive, Fawkes would have come. He came to Harry without any summoning charm, only because Harry stated his loyalty to DD. I'm sure that he knew at any time what was going on with DD(without the watch).

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Jul 28, 2005 8:04 am (#261 of 530)

If Snape is on the side of good,I hope Harry finds out early in the book.I think perhaps Dumbledore has confided to Snape more than we know and if Dumbledore is dead,I think Snape will have to help Harry.I think this "helping" has already started when Snape told Harry to keep his mind and his mouth closed.

-- if Snape is loyal, his death will be the most painful of all. Especially if Snape dies in an act of self-sacrifice. I agree,what a tear jerker.

- - - - - - - - - -
Kazius - Jul 28, 2005 11:45 am (#262 of 530)

Skeptic
I hate to say it, but if Snape turns out to be on either side and dies, I will probably be quite happy. Regardless of his loyalties, he's always done his worst to make Harry's life as horrible as possible, and he would only be redeeming himself in death. I might for the first time, pity Snape, if he died in a self sacrifice, but I wouldn't even think of shedding a tear.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Jul 28, 2005 6:11 pm (#263 of 530)

"Now, there is a question if there is the seventh part of soul still in Voldemort or it has been destroyed when the curse rebounded? " " Did he use one of them when he was remaking his body?"

If Voldy used one of his Hrocruxes to be reborn, what would it be? might lead back to Harry becoming a Horcrux as he used Harry's blood. Or, did he use the horcux before that point to become more than spirit, but it still left him less than spirit. On another note, If Voldy destroyed the only remaining part of his soul when he Ak'd Harry, that would pretty much mean that he's walking evil.

Also, could it be if Snape new of the multiple Horcruxes, or even if he didn't, he persuaded LV to give Lily a chance to go free because he (Snape) knew what would happen...i.e. Lily would die for Harry and thereby weaken LV?

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 28, 2005 6:23 pm (#264 of 530)

Perhaps there was no unbreakable vow or bonding--but it seems there is so much ritual in magic--and the fate of Harry Potter was not something that could be left to chance--Snape stewing for 10 years over having to protect him at some point (and basically hating him from class 1)

Do you suppose there are other blood oathes or ways to "seal a deal" without someone dying?

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 28, 2005 8:45 pm (#265 of 530)

Brandi-

Don't think Harry can be a horcrux for LV. After using his blood in GOF he is still unable to share Harry's body in the Ministry in OOTP. That love thing still getting in the way...

- - - - - - - - - -
Marla Clayton - Jul 28, 2005 9:37 pm (#266 of 530)

I have sat and pondered why DD trusted Snape and never changed his opinion of Snape even though Harry constantly has doubted Snape's loyalties. Well, I came up with a possibility...what if when Lily and James were killed and Snape went to DD for help, if he made an unbreakable vow with DD to protect Harry no matter what it took. With the unbreakable vow made, DD would know that Snape would have no choice but to protect Harry at all cost. It does not mean that Snape has to like Harry, but he does have to protect him. Snape has protected Harry in the past such as in SS when Quirrel was jinxing Harry's broom, it was Snape who was countering Quirrel's jinx and preventing Harry from falling to his death. There are several other times that Snape protected and prevented Harry from certain death. I am not stating that I like Snape all that much, but I don't think that DD would have been fooled and killed for no reason. I still feel that Snape is on the good guy side. I think that he was following DD's orders to the letter just as DD had made Harry promise to do. It would be great if DD weren't dead, but I feel that he is. So that is my idea...Snape made an unbreakable vow to DD to protect Harry to try and right the wrong he unknowingly made with the Potter's losing their lives.

- - - - - - - - - -
CeilingofStars - Jul 28, 2005 11:26 pm (#267 of 530)

Marla, I like your Unbreakable Vow theory, but for some reason I just cant imgine Dumbledore forcing someone to make a decision like that and then die if the conditions are not met. It seems a little...manipulative for him. And takes the emphasis off choice, which is a big deal to DD

In other news, I just wanted to say that I found an interesting tidbit! On page 29 (American hardback) near the top, Snape says - I assure you, when I explained that I remained faithful, although Dumbledore *thought I was his man*.

This reminds me of the Dumbledores man, through and through bit from later on, to which Dumbledore replied - how very rude of him! I dont think this part was added by coincidence. I think that this is evidence that Snape is still good, because Dumbledore would never assume that someone *was his man*, just that he was fighting for good. What do you guys think?

Oh and Deb - how about like Hermiones curse with the DA? That involves something similar to a blood oath where you could tell if someone has broken it (boils on their face)!

- - - - - - - - - -
The Sword and the Lion - Jul 29, 2005 2:50 am (#268 of 530)

Lina wrote: Well, maybe it is worth mentioning: if all that Snape wanted was dead DD, then he could have not cured him after the curse of the ring.

Excellent point =).

- - - - - - - - - -
Ann - Jul 29, 2005 6:01 am (#269 of 530)

Like a lot of us, I think Dumbledore (rightly) trusted Snape because he loved Lily, possibly as a friend rather than as a woman. (JKR seems to put a lot of weight on the love between friends--look at Hermione and Ron's importance to Harry.) But he may have been in love as well. I want to suggest two circumstances in support of this that I don't think have been mentioned.

First, Lily's eyes. What is essential for legilimency? Eye contact. So what did Snape have to do during the Occlumency lessons? Look into Harry's/Lily's eyes. (Everyone tells us they're identical.) If Snape truly loved Lily, it can't have been fun to see all the hatred in them that he would have had to in those intensive occlumency lessons (and Harry does, to his shame, seem to truly hate Snape). Not surprising that the whole enterprise was a fiasco.

Secondly, Neville. It seems likely to me that when Snape heard the first part of the prophecy, he knew the children to whom it referred (remember, the wizarding community is a small one, and the Longbottoms were famous aurors). He would assume that Voldemort would have chosen the pure-blood child as the most threatening. (He himself is a half-blood, and perhaps a bit defensive about it; and I suspect only a few knew that Voldemort was a half-blood too.) Perhaps he even had a score to settle with the Longbottoms, since they'd defied Voldemort three times during a period when Snape was a loyal DE. Then, imagine his horror to find that Voldemort finds the Potter child, Lily's child, to be the greater threat. He still hates James, though he owes him a life debt; but this is a direct threat to his old friend/love and her child. I can't imagine that anyone as punctilious as Snape is about honor (and he is), with such explosive surpressed feelings as we've seen, could bear to see himself as responsible for that. It brings home how destructive his work for Voldemort has been, how wrong it is, and I would bet he went back to Dumbledore that same night. But Lily and James die anyway (because of James' arrogant belief in his friends), and Neville Longbottom survives. No wonder Snape can barely stand the sight of Neville.

I would also bet that Dumbledore then suggested he try to get Voldemort to assign him to Hogwarts. (After all, he says it was Voldemort's idea only to Bella and Cissy, and we know he's lying to them on several levels.)

And, just because it's been mentioned here so often: I think that none of the DEs (including Snape) were told about the Horcruxes. R.A.B. (probably Regulus) figured it out. Dumbledore really does not want Voldemort to find out that he knows about them, since if he decides to check on their safety and finds out that they are gone, he can make new ones (the necessary deaths being more or less a dime a dozen to him). So that's why Dumbledore doesn't tell the Order; he may have told Snape, but I'd suspect not. (Think of JKR's recent emphasis on his lack of a confidant.)

But Snape has treated his hand, clearly damaged in taking the ring Horcrux. Perhaps this injury will ultimately and inevitably kill him, and in such a way that it will be obvious that it is from the curse protecting the ring. If so, there is a good reason for Dumbledore to want Snape to kill him instead, particularly because he will then get the credit for it with Voldemort and probably save Draco into the bargain. (Snape, unlike Draco, was a DE for several years and probably no longer has a "whole soul" to lose.) It is presumably on that basis that he agrees to let Snape teach DADA for what will be his final year, perhaps as a treat, but perhaps also as a good way of training the troops for the coming war.

Snape had to have known about the plot to have Draco kill Dumbledore. If he didn't and pretended that he did, he would have been shown up as a spy immediately should Bella or Cissy decide to check with Voldemort about this information, and he's too clever to have risked that. But I don't think he'd agreed to Dumbledore's plan when he made the vow, or indeed until he stood in the Astronomy Tower. He wasn't expecting that final requirement of Cissy's, and that's why his hand shook, but after a moment of calculation he decided to risk it. Either he would die (from breaking the Unbreakable Vow) or he would kill Dumbledore (as Voldemort, Dumbledore, and his friend Cissy all seem to have wanted him him to). Not a happy choice, but none of Snape's choices are happy. What a miserable life! And then he's going to die.

(Sorry to be so long-winded!)

- - - - - - - - - -
wombat witch - Jul 29, 2005 6:38 am (#270 of 530)

OK - here's my bit - sorry if it's all been said but I'm new to this and I wasn't going to read 269 posts just to be sure I didn't repeat anything. (I read a few though.)

I work with children and teenagers a lot so the idea that Snape had a burning passion for Lily is not diminished in the least for me by the fact that he called her a 'filthy mudblood' in the pensive in OotP. Boys in particular often try to overcompensate for feelings they are struggling with - the vehemence of his words against Lily may actually indicate the level of his adolescent passion for her.

He does already hate James, who is a real pain at this same time ... and to be honest I would probably tell him and Sirius where to go as soon as flirt with them ... but Lily is probably what influences James to be a better student - as is indicated in the fact that 'out of the blue' he becomes head boy, bypassing the prefect title (though as Gryffindor Quiddich Captain that's probably OK) James not only himiliates him in front of Lily, he is friends with Sirius, who I assume doesn't mend his bad boy ways and remains a thorn in Snapes side. James is also (I think) a full-blood wizard, another thing we now know would really bug Snape and would add to his perception that James has one over him when it comes to Lily.

Finally - James gets the girl, and to finish it off he fathers her child who is the spitting image of him. Snape must feel sick the first time he sees the long hated James looking at him with Lily's eyes!

Voldemort didn't have to kill Lily on Snapes advice (about the prophesy)but he did anyway. I think Snape hated himself for his hand in her death, and hated Harry for being the one she loved so much she died for him!

There - I said it - going to bed now...

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 29, 2005 6:56 am (#271 of 530)

Edited Jul 29, 2005 8:15 am
Ann-

I agree almost completely! The only difference, I don't think DD had a plan to be killed all along. I think that came into play after Snape was caught in the vow. Even then, in my opinion, DD was going to go on until it came down to a choice between his life and Draco's or Snape's. That happened on the tower.

Wombat witch- I agree. DD said love is the only protection against LV's lure...

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Jul 29, 2005 10:39 am (#272 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
OK Everyone - Be kind and have patience with me. I have just recently thought of this and it's in relation to what little we know about Snape's mother, Eileen. (By the way - Eileen is also my beloved dead grandmother's name, so now I'm really biased for the "Snape is Good" theory ;-)

We don't know much about Eileen, except that she was in an abusive and unhappy relationship with "muggle Daddy Snape" and that she loved and probably protected her son against this abuse.(I think this is the love JKR means in that one interview where she says that Snape has experienced love, so his turning to LV and DE's is more horrible than LV's turn to evil.) We know that the Potions book is hers and Snape, of course, used it while a student.

I am thinking more and more that perhaps the handwriting in the book could possibily be Eileen's. So, what does this mean? Well, Snape had a really smart and gifted Mom, and she was a gifted contemporary of Tom Riddle, the future Voldy? If love is what protects one from LV and his brand of evil, or could be the ultimate believable reason (for DD) why one would turn away from LV, then what about this - Do we know how Eileen died? Could Snape be influenced in some way against LV (and told DD about this) by something Tom Riddle/LV did to his mother? We don't know really anything about her, so I know that I'm stretching it here, but did she go to school with Tom Riddle? I'm assuming that she died at some point, since she's not sending Snape any howlers about forgetting to call or send flowers on Mother's Day!

Do we know how Eileen died? Was it suspicious? Could she have died at a DE's hands? Something like this would influence Snape to turn to good. Maybe that was when he first went to DD? I'm just thinking out loud here and would like to know what others who are more observant and wise might think. Thanks!

- - - - - - - - - -
Ann - Jul 29, 2005 10:41 am (#273 of 530)

T Vrana, I think, speaking here from the (theoretical) viewpoint of of the construction of the novel and making Snape's redemption in the end believable, that Dumbledore has already made the decision by the time of the vow. He has realized that his withered hand is incurable and that it will reveal to Voldemort that his Horcruxes are exposed if Dumbledore dies of it. Therefore he has to die of something else, and why not let Snape take credit for killing him and get the benefit of Voldemort's gratitude, which will make him a more effective spy/turncoat within Voldemort's ranks. Otherwise, why appoint Snape DADA Master (as I think he has by the scene with Cissy and Bella, certainly before he chooses Slughorn for his faculty replacement)? Somehow, I can't believe that Snape would have risked that vow unless Dumbledore had already told him that his own death was in the offing.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 29, 2005 11:55 am (#274 of 530)

Valfunde-

The handwriting matches Snape's from book 5, Harry descibes it durng Snape's Worst Memeory as being miniscule and cramped. In HBP he desccibes it as samll and cramped. Plus Snape says he is the HBP and this is written on the book in the same handwriting.

Ann- it is possible, but I took it that Snape entered the vow thinking protect Malfoy, no problem, then Narcissa added part three, that is when he flinched, but then it was too late to withdraw without revealing his true allegiance to DD.

As for the DADA job, the vow took place in July (Snape comments DD was shaken by the battle in MoM "last month"), and DD hires Slughorn in July. The vow is placed before we see DD hire Slughorn.

You may be right, but I think DD's sacrifice was much more personal, he chose to die over Snape or Draco dying. I don't think he would have asked Snape to do such a huge thing on the off chance he might die from the hand and the off chance LV might find out how he died.

I can't see how the decision coming after the vow makes Snape's redemption less believable. No matter when it is decided, Snape is making a huge sacrifice.

For me the difference reflects on DD and I think he would fight until he had no other choice, and the vow gave him no other choice.

I know I oculd be allll wrong...

- - - - - - - - - -
greta - Jul 29, 2005 12:27 pm (#275 of 530)

deed done!
am still very undecided about snape and his true loyalties. However if he is loyal to DD does anyone have any thoughts on the comment he makes in the Spinners End chapter that he provided LV with information that led to Emmeline Vance's murder? I know that he would have to provide some good informaion to LV to maintain the role of loyal death eater - but is it not a little extreme that someone should die as a result? Of course Snape could be taking credit for someone elses work to impress upon Cissy and Bella that he is doing a good job. Anyone any thoughts?

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Jul 29, 2005 12:36 pm (#276 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
T Vrana - Thank you. I now am convinced that the handwriting is Snape's.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 29, 2005 12:51 pm (#277 of 530)

Edited Jul 29, 2005 1:50 pm
greta-

That is troubling. But, as you said he could just be taking credit though he did nothing.

First potential crack in my Snape is ultimately not all bad resolve....

- - - - - - - - - -
Bluenote1313 - Jul 29, 2005 2:52 pm (#278 of 530)

I have posted something similar in the theories section but I wanted to post it here in case it had not been discussed.

I am convinced that the reason Snape was trustworthy was that his mistake with the prophecy all those years ago got the woman he was in love with killed - Lily. I think that Snape had a bit of a obsessive relationship with Lily in school and that help foster his hatred for James. We know that Snape was good in potions and from Slughorn that Lily was exceptional. It is not impossible that they were in classes together all through school and Snape, having a muggle father, felt a connection to Lily, who had both Muggle parents. When she started dating James, Snape who already hated James and his friends, probably became even more 'evil' and joined the DE. He probably knew James was part of the OotP and wanted to be on the other side. He gave LV the part of the prophecy he heard and when LV decided to go after the Potter's, Snape probably asked him to spare Lily (hence the 'step aside' comment from LV). LV's hatred of muggles (because of his father) would have made Lily the target more than James (a pureblood) unless he had another reason to spare her, perhaps a request from a loyal DE. When she was killed I expect that Snape sought forgiveness from DD and received it. We know that Snape was a double agent from OotP but we don't know when he started (was it before or after LV was detroyed) DE activity went on after he was gone, based on the LeStranges torturing the Longbottoms for information on where LV was.

This follows along with the basis for Harry's ability to survive against LV, his ability to love. Alot of the story has focused on that particular emotion and it was more evident in HBP, Narcissa's love for her son Draco, Tonks-Lupin, Fleur-Bill, Ginny-Harry but has been in the entire storyline from the beginning with Lily dying for Harry to Harry's aunt taking him in....the thought that Snape loved Lily fits right in with the story line. It would be the best explanation for DD trusting Snape, he got the woman he loved killed.

opinions?

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 29, 2005 3:55 pm (#279 of 530)

Edited Jul 29, 2005 4:51 pm
Bluenote-

Agree there is something here. Have posted this idea, but with the exception I think there is evidence that Snape joined DD when he learned the Potters were the target. He wanted to save Lilly

We know DD had someone close to LV warn him that Black may not be trustworthy. Someone was passing info to LV about the Potter's, DD offered to be secret keeper. The shrieking shack scene at the end of POA leads me to believe it was Snape who warned DD that someone was leaking info to LV.

Snape shrieked, looking madder than ever "Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd (Black) killed you! You'd have died like your father to arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black..."

1) I think Snape was the one who warned DD about Black, and blames James' arrogance and Black for Lilly's death

2) He's way past school day prank anger here, he's ready to give Sirius to the dementors for a kiss

3)James' failure to listen (even though Black wasn't the traitor, not listening to Snape's warning led to Potters death) made Snape guilty of participating in the murder of his love, Lilly and his nemisis, James to whom he was indebted for saving his (Snape's) life

4) Seems like he owes Harry, who looks like James with Lilly's eyes.

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Jul 29, 2005 4:27 pm (#280 of 530)

However if he is loyal to DD does anyone have any thoughts on the comment he makes in the Spinners End chapter that he provided LV with information that led to Emmeline Vance's murder?

Well, he lied to Bella and Cissy about one thing at least (that Dumbledore had taken him in after Voldemort's defeat), and he might have lied about another...

Although, Snape did seem to contribute to Sirius' death, since he had taunted Sirius about being cooped up and alerted the Order about Harry's false alarm...

By the way, T Vrana, it's Lily, not Lilly.

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 29, 2005 4:35 pm (#281 of 530)

If you make an unbreakable vow with someone--and THEY die--for any reason--what is the staus of the vow?

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 29, 2005 4:59 pm (#282 of 530)

Paulus Maximus-

Lily, thanks. Looked back and I've been spelling it wrong all along. How embarrassing...

- - - - - - - - - -
Nymphadora Lupin - Jul 29, 2005 7:22 pm (#283 of 530)

Like a lot of people here I am relatively sold on the Snape was obsessed with Lily theory. I might not be ready to bet all 7 of my horcruxes on it yet, but I think I'd wager a good 4 or 5 of them at this point...

In post 269 Ann mentioned something that bolstered the argument considerably, and I can't believe I didn't think of this one earlier, as I have been re-reading with the Snape/Lily connection specifically in mind. Snape's outright hatred of Neville is rather peculiar, isn't it? I by no means want to suggest that Snape is kind to other Gryffindors, but he does seem to pick on Neville more than the average student (excepting Harry of course). And we know Neville is a pureblood, so we can't really point the finger at Snape's muggle complex as the impetus for his cruel treatment of Neville. We know Snape knew about the first half of the prophecy and we know Snape knew that Voldemort made a concious choice to attack Harry over Neville. I'm betting every time Neville failed miserably in class, Snape probably thought what a waste for Lily (an extremely talented and gifted witch) to die instead of the talentless wizard that Snape believes Neville to be.

While the rationale behind this thought is absurd, I think it smacks of the thinking of a twisted man clinging only to his thoughts of revenge. I think Snape is ridden with so much guilt that the only thing he can do to function is siphon off some of the blame to Neville instead. In fact, Snape has set up a sort of cottage industry of blame; blaming everyone he can think of (Sirius, James, Harry, Voldemort, Neville, etc. etc) except the one most responsible, himself.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 29, 2005 7:57 pm (#284 of 530)

Nymphadora Lupin, I agree with your assessment of Snape wholeheartedly. Snape might possibly still be working for the Good Guys, but I'm not breaking out the violins over his sob story just yet.

I liked Ann's explanation of why Snape treats Neville how he does too. It's always bothered me that he has singled out Neville for belittlement. That would explain it, in a demented kind of way.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Jul 30, 2005 6:11 am (#285 of 530)

The Potions book - 1) Snape says it's his. 2) I have a hard time believing that his dear ol' mum created the Sercumsempra spell

A quote from OoP - Snape is speaking - "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection."

Hmmm sounds like maybe he's speaking from experience.

I don't know if the umbreakable vow is a "dark" vow, but it just seems too dark for DD to use on Snape. I think there were other proofs of Snapes loyalty.

Also, Does the picture of DD in the Headmaster's office have a momory. For example, could it tell Harry or McGonagall the truth about Snape is he is innocent?

- - - - - - - - - -
Ann - Jul 30, 2005 8:17 am (#286 of 530)

Nymphadora Lupin said "I think Snape is ridden with so much guilt that the only thing he can do to function is siphon off some of the blame to Neville instead. In fact, Snape has set up a sort of cottage industry of blame; blaming everyone he can think of (Sirius, James, Harry, Voldemort, Neville, etc. etc) except the one most responsible, himself."

Sounds a lot like Harry dealing with Sirius's death, doesn't it? Just goes to show that Snape's human. Though actually, I bet he does blame himself...horribly.

Nymphadora & Mrs. Brisbee, glad you like the Neville theory! Thanks!

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Jul 30, 2005 9:15 am (#287 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Jul 30, 2005 10:43 am
I posted this on the Chapter 27 Thread in response to an insightful post by Sparrowhawk, but thought it was appropriate here and could stimuate good discussion about another aspect of "Why DD trusted Snape."

I noticed Snape's comment to Tonks about her patronus too! He says he doesn't like her new one - it looks WEAK! (Typical Snape.) He knows she fancies Lupin and what the wolf is all about. Now, you can read this both ways. Snape thinks love in general makes one weak, so in that way it's the complete opposite of DD's and the whole series' view on the power of love being the only way to win over LV.

But, I prefer to think the other way about why Snape says this. In Snape's mind and in his experience, public displays of love and affection make you weak and vulnerable, especially to your enemies and LV. He's all about concealing his true emotions to survive on so many levels. He must have learned this as a child in the kind of home he was raised in. The one time he didn't hide it, when he asked LV for Lily to be spared, he suffered an immeasurable loss. He would have learned this lesson after Lily's death, wouldn't he? Yes, to Snape, public displays of his sort that make you wear your heart on your sleeve, do make you weak. That's why while I hope we find out his patronus is Lily-related, don't be shocked if it isn't. He learned his lesson. He wouldn't put his heart on display like that again - if he could help it!

[Later edited - Wizards can't control their patronuses, so we might see a love-related one for Snape after all, and it will only make sense if we know the meaning behind it. Only those who knew Tonks loved Lupin (Molly, Snape) understood what the change meant. We don't know Lily's patronus do we? Hope we find out in Bk.7!]

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 30, 2005 9:26 am (#288 of 530)

Excellent points! I also took it as a direct jab at Lupin...

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Jul 30, 2005 10:14 am (#289 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
It seems bizarre that Snape would function on such an elementary emotional level but then wierder things have happened and it is certainly an idea I would not discount. (I am talking about Snape joining the death eaters to get revenge against Sirius, Lupin and James...all for the love of Lily, which, in the end dies trying to spare her child-hers and James child. So he does a 360 then he spends the rest of his life dedicated to trying to undo those wrongs.) So very tragic. Worthy of Shakespeare or a Greek classic. Why does he pick on Neville? Could Snape possibly be angry that none of those who worked to defeat the dark lord were able to finish him off once and for all... so that his troubles continued? His inability to leave the service of the dark Lord.. the possiblity of Lily's death being prevented?

I certainly agree that there is something about the potions book.. it obviously was his mothers, who handed it down to her son, Snape. But was Lily the brilliant potions student on her own...or is there more to it? (I think it would be doubly sad for Harry to learn that his mother had been a bit of a cheat, given that Dad was a something of a cad in school). Besides, you never read anything bad about Lily. If you go back and re-read S.S./P.S. knowing what we now know, Petunia does seem to know a bit more about the magic world than she lets on-such as realizing the letters won't stop coming & that they will find Harry no matter what. I suppose that could have just come from having Lily for a sister.

I will be very interested to learn the backstory/motives of Snape. I mean Professor Snape, sir! Very Happy

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 30, 2005 10:20 am (#290 of 530)

I'd guess Gran Longbottom would not have regarded Severus Snape very highly-- isn't it possible Snape could also have been nearby when her son and DIL were Crucio-ed. The bird sounds rather odd and excentric and I doubt she would have been anything but overbearing to Severus--since I would assume her own children might have attended Hogwarts in the same general time period as Snape....

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Jul 30, 2005 11:20 am (#291 of 530)

bluenote1313 had asked if Snape rejoined DD before or after LV's downfall. DD testified that it was before in GOF when Harry sees Karkaroff's trial in the pensieve.

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Jul 30, 2005 12:23 pm (#292 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
I've read the last posts with great pleasure. RoseMorninStar, I'm starting too to think that Snape's character is worth a Shakespeare's one - considering also that my favourited one is Iago...

Someone wrote about Eileen Prince and Voldemort - I sincerely hope that we'll see more about Snape's past (and I think we will). I don't think that Snape despises the muggle-borns as other LV followers do. His abuse to Lily was clearly an outburst of something hidden inside (I'm dangerously leaning toward the Snape-loved-Lily heory).

I begin to believe also that there's something behind Snape's Patronus - but can anyone point me where the whole matter of Snape's Patronus is discussed? I don't remember it.

I quite agree with all of your explaination, Ann.

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Jul 30, 2005 2:01 pm (#293 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
JKR said in a recent interview that she could not say what Snapes patronus or his bogart was because that would be giving too much away. So, let's take some guesses. Hmmm, for patronus could it be a chameleon? And for a Bogart, what would Snape fear? I think it would be humiliation.. it would be him standing in his greying underwear and people laughing at him... in front of Lily Evans.

- - - - - - - - - -
Saralinda Again - Jul 30, 2005 2:32 pm (#294 of 530)

My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
It would be majorly freaky if Snape's Patronus were a phoenix.

I still like the idea of a fluffy white kitten Patronus

Expecto smurgling*!
for non cat-fanciers, smurgling is when purring cats (usually kittens) obsessively suckle on your finger or a button of your shirt while they're doing their little happy-paws stomping bit.

- - - - - - - - - -
Herm oh ninny - Jul 30, 2005 2:36 pm (#295 of 530)

"Accio treats!"
O.K. Now I just had an image of a little white kitten jumping out of Snape's wand and sucking on a dementor's finger!!!!

- - - - - - - - - -
Weeny Owl - Jul 30, 2005 2:36 pm (#296 of 530)

I mentioned somewhere that I thought Snape's Patronus might be a phoenix, but I also made comparisons between PoA and HBP wondering if, when Fawkes left, he might not be going to Snape.

Crookshanks protected Sirius when Harry was planning on killing him, so maybe Fawkes will protect Snape if Harry tries to kill him.

Of course, we all know Snape's boggart is a bottle of shampoo.

- - - - - - - - - -
Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 30, 2005 2:36 pm (#297 of 530)

Perhaps, Snape's boggart is like Neville's but, in the case of Snape what if his boggart is James Potter. But, it could be a bottle of Denorex ( a shampoo that smells like a combination of coal and tar).

- - - - - - - - - -
Herm oh ninny - Jul 30, 2005 2:39 pm (#298 of 530)

"Accio treats!"
Of course, we all know Snape's boggart is a bottle of shampoo.-Weeny Owl HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

- - - - - - - - - -
Nymphadora Lupin - Jul 30, 2005 3:18 pm (#299 of 530)

shampoo, ha! I could definitely see that...

Perhaps his boggart might be his father?

As for his patronus, I'm having difficulty coming up with one. A phoenix is an interesting idea, but as DD already has that one, I doubt Snape would have the same. Any animals associated with a lily that could tie into the Snape loved Lily theory?

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Jul 30, 2005 6:07 pm (#300 of 530)

How about a red fox???

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 301 to 350)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:31 am

irish flutterby - Jul 30, 2005 6:41 pm (#301 of 530)
I would be more inclined, as I cling desperately to the Snape's a good-guy theory, that Snape's boggart has to do with the dark lord. Would it not be catastrophic for him if LV found out that he'd been a...um... well double to the nth power agent.

I don't think that Lily was "cheating" on James with Snape, just that she was probably the only one who gave him any attention that wasn't negative, so naturally, like any adolescent male would do in his shoes, he fell inlove with her...Or at the very least was infatuated.

- - - - - - - - - -
Kazius - Jul 31, 2005 12:05 am (#302 of 530)

Skeptic
Here's another odd theory that I'm going to wonder tomorrow why I suggested to it.

Is it possible that the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape, is because Snape went to Dumbledore after telling Voldemort about the Prophecy and finding out that LV was going to go after Potter, that Snape went to Dumbledore and told him everything to protect Lily. This could be how Dumbledore knew that the Longbottom's were safe, and that he was able to put precautions into place around Harry, which would have worked had it not been for Wormtail?

We know Snape told LV about the prophecy, and that Dumbledore found out that LV was targetting Harry rather than Neville. That leaves us with a missing link in the middle.

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Jul 31, 2005 12:26 am (#303 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
I have no clue (at this time) why Dumbledore trusted Snape. Obviously something he did was the 'greatest regret of his life'.

I wonder if Snape's patronus wouldn't be something with a duel nature, like a Centaur, Sphinx, or a Griffin (some Griffin's are shown with a tail like a snake) or a lynx, which symbolizes secrecy, the coyote aka 'the trickster' or this: Fox - camouflage, adaptability, integration, tricksters, shape shifters, and possessors of great magic ... oh!! I've got it!! It's a MOLE!!!

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Jul 31, 2005 1:11 am (#304 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
an overgrown bat?

I adore the idea of a phoenix. Fawkes gone with Snape? Whoa, interesting.

The bottle of shampoo is genius, Weeny Owl ^^

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 31, 2005 5:38 am (#305 of 530)

I'm really having a hard time figuring out what monumental thing Snape's Patronus could be; after all, all the Order must know what his Patronus is, because they use their Patronuses to send messages. I'm not sure what his Patronus could be that would give away anything about his personality that the Order can't have figured out by it. Yet if his Patronus is something with ambiguous symbolism there would be no need for Rowling to keep it secret from us.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ann - Jul 31, 2005 6:56 am (#306 of 530)

I too, love the idea of Fawkes going off to Snape--after all, when he went to Harry in CoS, Dumbledore said that his presence was a testament to the fact that he'd showed real loyalty to Dumbledore. So maybe Fawkes has gone to comfort Snape, who must feel more alone and hated than he ever has in his entire life. But I hope Fawkes has the decency to wait until he's alone. Dumbledore's loyal familiar showing up on Snape's doorstep would be a bit of a give-away.

As for Snape's own patronus, what about a Doberman? Proud, insecure, and liable to take offense at almost anything (at least in my experience), but very loving and loyal when they feel secure with someone. That's how I see Snape, and I think that would be the sort of patronus he'd go for. But I suppose that doesn't give much away.

Though I'm sure his boggart is Voldemort, Dark Lord's favorite though he be. And that would be a tip off to anyone who didn't see through the Snape-kills-Dumbledore scene.

- - - - - - - - - -
Deb Zawacki - Jul 31, 2005 7:05 am (#307 of 530)

Ooooo just thought of something--for the theorists who believe Wormtail was morphed into DD--the messed up hand blah blah---

Harry heard a voice that he didn't recognize calling Severus. DD wouldn't plead but Pettigrew would....

- - - - - - - - - -
constant vigilance - Jul 31, 2005 7:14 am (#308 of 530)

art student
I am very curious what Snape would have to do for people to believe he is a loyal Death Eater. When has Snape ever done anything that is clearly good, that doesn't serve himself more than others? And why is it that Snape's behavior can always be explained away, even when he murders Dumbledore?

Snape did not kill Dumbledore in a respectful or honorable way. If Snape was actually following the orders of Dumbledore, well, why then did Snape not fight Dumbledore properly? He should have at least given Dumbledore his wand back. Instead, Snape takes full advantage of Dumbledore lying on the ground, without his wand, to Avada Kadavra Dumbldore over the tower.

- - - - - - - - - -
Saralinda Again - Jul 31, 2005 8:57 am (#309 of 530)

My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
constant vigilance: Snape did not kill Dumbledore in a respectful or honorable way.

If Dumbledore indeed asked to be killed (yes, I know that's only a theory), then I'm not sure how re-arming him would be more respectful than simply doing the deed and getting it over with. Again, presuming for the moment that Good!Snape was obeying orders, he could scarcely stop to give a warm valedictory, since (a) more DEs were on their way up, and (b) it would be a bit of a giveaway to Draco. Also, as some have suggested, there could have been a fairly detailed mind-reading going on the Harry did not perceive.

If Dumbledore was pleading for his life, I do not see how any method of death could be defined as respectful or honorable. Murder is murder. Theoretical Bad!Snape was not challenging DD to a duel; the objective was not to redefine the lines of power and dominance. Bad!Snape was ridding the WW of one of Lord V's two most dangerous enemies. Had he known that Harry was immobilized there under the Invisibility Cloak, he probably would have dusted him, too, and the series could have ended early.

My opinion only, of course.

- - - - - - - - - -
Kratze - Jul 31, 2005 11:41 am (#310 of 530)

I am thinking more and more that perhaps the handwriting in the book could possibily be Eileen's.

Valfunde - I don't think so, personally. Unless Snape is trying to take credit for his mother's accomplishments when he tells off Harry for using his own spells against him, the jinxes and curses are his, and therefore all of the annotations are as well. Otherwise Harry would have noticed a difference in the handwriting. And Eileen Prince isn't tagged out by JKR as an unusual witch other than being President of the Gobstones club, but her son is clearly powerful and extremely intelligent. I believe that's all Severus's writing, although I think it's possible not all of it was his own invention. Like maybe Lily was the brilliant one in potions, and Snape wrote down stuff she was coming up with. Which would sort of fit with the main thread - he admires and even depends on her cleverness in potions, transfers that to the lady herself, and winds up with a hopeless crush.

One more unrelated point - if Snape's so ashamed of being a half blood, why would he write it on his textbook where his fellow classmates could read it with very little effort? Now THAT might have been put there by his mother, she might have had no issues with her heritage!

- - - - - - - - - -
Saralinda Again - Jul 31, 2005 11:46 am (#311 of 530)

My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Was Eileen a half-blood? I thought she was full blood and Severus was the half-blood.

(running back to re-read)

- - - - - - - - - -
Kratze - Jul 31, 2005 11:48 am (#312 of 530)

I still say his Patronus is a spider!!

- - - - - - - - - -
Kratze - Jul 31, 2005 11:52 am (#313 of 530)

I don't think it ever really says what her bloodline was.

- - - - - - - - - -
David Olson - Jul 31, 2005 12:24 pm (#314 of 530)

I think either the Patronus or Boggart has something to do with Lily.

I'll speculate that Snape's Patronus is unusual because it's a flower, a walking lily. And if he faced a bogart, he'd use occlumency to keep it from detecting the thing he fears most. So I don't think we'd actually find out much of anything. If he didn't use occlumency, I have too many ideas to pick one. Maybe it's an angry Lily. Or maybe it's discovery of his true status (whether for DD or LV).

- - - - - - - - - -
Ag Hart - Jul 31, 2005 3:52 pm (#315 of 530)

I believe that JKR specified on her web site that each wizard's Patronus is particular to that wizard and that helps to explain the simple method the Order uses to communicate. Therefore, DD and Snape wouldn't have the same Patronus. (I know it is difficult to believe that thousands of wizards all have the same ones, but that is what she stated.) The two most popular guesses pre-HBP for Snape's were bat and spider. Now, if Tonks' Patronus is a wolf, what is Lupin's? Do we know?

Saralinda Again-- Bad or good, I don't think Snape would have finished off Harry even if had known that he was hidden under the cloak. (Some posters have argued that he did know.) He has his chance to kill and torture Harry during his flight, and he tells the Death Eater who attacks Harry that Harry needs to be saved for the Dark Lord. Of course, we don't know whether he is lying or not.

- - - - - - - - - -
Brella W - Jul 31, 2005 5:01 pm (#316 of 530)

Sorry been a while since posting ok first love the shampoo bit...also got a question... For what reason will Lilly ever have forgiven Snape when he called her that filthy name...I mean didn't she try to help him when James had him turned upside down... Although what if in going along with the whole Snape loves Lilly what if that is why that is Snape's worst memory the day he called the woman he loved that foul name and that was when she stopped talking to him. This of course doesn't really go with the topic... just another wandering side note...

- - - - - - - - - -
mischiefmanager - Jul 31, 2005 6:19 pm (#317 of 530)

Hi, I'm new to this group but a veteran of other on-line HP groups. This is a bit long for a first post, so please forgive me in advance. :-)

I wonder if DD decided to trust Snape because he felt guilty about his failure to redeem Tom. DD must have had some regrets about not being able to turn Tom to the good, despite all the evidence that Tom was a lost cause well before he came to Hogwarts. DD would have hoped that his presence and his example (along with others at Hogwarts) might have showed Tom that there was a different way to live. But Tom never allowed himself to change.

So when SS came along, DD saw another very gifted student who was already deeply immersed in the dark arts and who showed signs of being vulnerable to recruitment by the supporters of LV. He was a Slytherin, hanging around with a bunch of future DEs and he was a sworn enemy of a group of DD's strongest supporters at Hogwarts. He was already inventing dark spells of his own (isn't that sectusemptra he uses on James in the "worst memory scene, when he waves his wand and slashes James's face open?).

So I would bet that DD kept his eye on Snape during his student years. We don't know what happened to Snape right after he left Hogwarts, but we do know that within a year he was spying for LV. DD must have been terribly saddened by seeing another gifted student lost to the dark side. So when Snape came to him and confessed his role in the murders at Godric's Hollow, I would bet that DD wanted to believe him, to believe that not everyone who is attracted to the dark side has to end up there for good. It seems to me that the whole confession scenario is so unlikely that DD must have had an emotional motive for accepting what's really a pretty lame story.

Maybe DD hoped that SS was sincere in his confession. But he should have known within a week of Harry's arrival at Hogwarts that SS had never gotten over his driving hatred of James. And given that reality, to trust SS was utmost foolishness. DD was not someone who made a habit of allowing his emotions to blind him to reality (except in the case of Harry, as he admitted). Yet he stubbornly refused to believe what his own eyes told him-that getting revenge on James was more important to SS than either DD or LV. And someone who's driven by hatred can't be a trustworthy enforcer of good. But my guess is that right up to the end, DD wanted to believe that redemption is possible. And I think he's right, in theory (we'll see about RAB, for instance). He always regretted his inability to save Tom Riddle, and so chose to believe in Snape. Sadly, for himself and for Harry, he was deceived.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Jul 31, 2005 7:16 pm (#318 of 530)

I am very curious what Snape would have to do for people to believe he is a loyal Death Eater.

Now we really are sounding like Moody. For me, he'd pretty much have to come out and say to Harry and the rest of the Order "You stupid fools, I had that senile old man fooled from the beginning. I will never cease to serve my lord, and my master. The Dark Lord has risen and you will all now see the magnitude of his power....." yada, yada, etc., etc.,

I think we all just have a really hard time believeing that DD would make such a crucial mistake. We trust that he really is a wise person rather than a loony old man. mischeifmanager - Frankly, I just don't want to believe that DD would still remain blinded in spite of Harry's safety. I think he would at least keep a close eye on Snape rather than trusting him implicitly. While he might still tell Harry that he trusted Snape, he might not remain as adamant and surely would betray his mistrust of questions to someone else in the Order. On the other hand in her interview with Mugglenet and TLC, JKR says that he is trusting to a fault, at times. Maybe this was one of those times.

-p.s. I hadn't heard about the DD/Wormtail transformation, but that is an intriguing theory.

P.P.S. I adore the Shampoo bit.

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Jul 31, 2005 8:02 pm (#319 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
"Like maybe Lily was the brilliant one in potions, and Snape wrote down stuff she was coming up with. Which would sort of fit with the main thread - he admires and even depends on her cleverness in potions, transfers that to the lady herself, and winds up with a hopeless crush."

Kratze- Thank you. You've opened me up to a new way of looking at this. I didn't think of that possibility. Maybe that's one of the reasons why he wasn't thrilled with being the potions professor (reminder all the time of his past) and also maybe why DD posted him there! Hee Hee

- - - - - - - - - -
Surtseystwin - Jul 31, 2005 9:07 pm (#320 of 530)

Edited by Jul 31, 2005 9:11 pm
Valfunde wrote:

I noticed Snape's comment to Tonks about her patronus too! He says he doesn't like her new one - it looks WEAK! ...I prefer to think the other way about why Snape says this. In Snape's mind and in his experience, public displays of love and affection make you weak and vulnerable, especially to your enemies and LV.


...and he's right isn't he? Snape isn't the type to be getting the lowdown from Molly Weasley, and I seriously doubt he and Tonks have had any heart to heart chats, (Oh, Sev, I love Remus so much it hurts, but he just won't give me the time of day.) yet he knows exactly what is going on with Tonks. He therefore would be able to prey upon her vulnerabilities if he chose - and his patronus comment, albeit instructional, does just that. I think he's quick enough to have put two and two together in an instant upon seeing her patronus, but his comment about it's weakness seems to me to be based not on the sudden insight of new revelation, but on what he already knows. Good comments, Valfunde.

Some other Snape ponderings: Harry's punishment is relatively light when Snape realizes that Harry has his old potions book, but moreover, Snape seems to actually allow him to keep it, as though he wants Harry to continue learning from it. Snape asks Harry to bring him the book, but other than that, he makes no real effort to confiscate it, not even, "Accio book!"

Other than Dumbledore, the one person who continually defends Snape, and chastizes HRH for their presumptions about him, is Hagrid. Hagrid himself has been very much in the same shoes. When everyone else in the wizarding world was ready to condemn Hagrid, Dumbledore trusted him and was willing to act on his belief that Hagrid was innocent, so from Hagrid's point of view, Dumbledore was the only one who knew the truth about him. Hagrid applys that personal experience as faith in Dumbledore's trust of Snape. I too just don't want to believe that Dumbledore could have been completely fooled.

Snape is no dope. In all likelihood he knew that Hermione and Luna were keeping watch outside his door. When Flitwick came rushing in, Snape may have knocked him out to get the girls in the office & preoccupied, thus protecting them from the danger of confronting DEs in the hallway.

None of these musings really suggest why Dumbledore might have trusted Snape, but they might make it a little more difficult to cling to the "Snape is bad" theory.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ag Hart - Jul 31, 2005 11:04 pm (#321 of 530)

Well, neither DD nor Voldemort seems to trust Snape completely. DD was so worried about Snape's baser instincts that he avoided giving Snape the DADA job for 14 years. The reason he finally gave him the position was so he could bring in Slughorn and secure the necessary memory about horcruxes. Even Voldemort doesn't appear to trust Snape totally, despite Snape's claims to the contrary. Snape isn't in the know since he needs to pump Draco about the secret plan, and it is very likely that Voldemort sent Wormtail to spy on rather than "assist" Snape. I hold out the hope that Wormtail's spying on Snape may ultimately benefit Harry to whom he owes a great debt.

- - - - - - - - - -
Brella W - Aug 1, 2005 2:07 am (#322 of 530)

Mischefmanager- I really do like your take on the trusting of Snape I mean it does fit in with DD saying he at times makes an even bigger mistakes than those less clever.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 1, 2005 4:27 am (#323 of 530)

Ag Hart- Did DD keep Snape out of the DADA position because of lack of trust, or because he wanted to keep him around once he rejoined the good side? DD confirmed the one year DADA teacher curse, and he tends to keep people at the castle for his own reasons (Trelawney for instance).

Valfunde-

I have wondered if the potions notes were help Snape got from Lily. The curses I would assuem are his own. We know he can make potions,(for Lupin for instance) but as Harry comments, Slughorn actually has a bunch of potions brewing in class. Harry commented that this was unusual for class. So was Snape really good or just adequate? Why did he never have anything brewing? He just posted notes...

I had thought it could go either way (Lily helped Snape, or Snape helped Lily), but this observation from Harry, plus Slughorn's comments that Lily was really great at Potions, while never saying anything about Snape (who he knows was the former teacher) lean more to Lily helping Snape, possibly.

- - - - - - - - - -
rambkowalczyk - Aug 1, 2005 5:35 am (#324 of 530)

Since Dumbledore knows that the DADA position is cursed he probably thought it would be a bad idea to appoint Snape to the position. (look what happened to Lupin). Perhaps he feared that Snape would be revealed as a Death Eater in books 1-3 or as a spy in books 4 and 5.

The question is why knowing this did Dumbledore do it in book 6. It may be as Ag hart suggested--it paved the way for Slughorn to return to Hogwarts. Maybe Voldemort's curse was such that the curse would be removed if Dumbledore appoints Voldemorts choice to the position.

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Aug 1, 2005 5:50 am (#325 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
Ag Hart, I had the impression that Wormtail was in Spinner's End to spy Snape from the first moment.

I don't remember who, but someone very cleverly suggested that Slughorn mentions only Lily's talent to Harry because he wants to keep Harry on his side, and praising his mother is just the right way to congratulate Harry. It would sound strange to say to Harry "How good you are! Just like your mother and professor Snape". Harry would have vomited if someone had told him he was just like professor Snape. Moreover writing that would have been a huge clue in revealing us that the book was Snape's one (I hadn't understood it before of Snape's own admission). Besides that, we know that Slighorn did really had an affection for Lily that goes beyond the affection he shows toward James, or toward Remus or Sirius (who were all in the same year). I'm pretty sure that the spells and the comments on the book are completely Snape's stuff, even if maybe Snape and Lily were exchanging opinions on Potions in classes and after.

- - - - - - - - - -
greta - Aug 1, 2005 5:58 am (#326 of 530)

deed done!
Rambkowalczyk - I really like your idea that the curse would end once LV got is own way, albeit via Snape.

If this was not the reason for DD awarded Snape the position then there is obviously some other larger, as yet unknown reason why DD would want snape just to do the job for the year. However just because it is cursed does not mean, like Ron says, that Snape could not revert to teaching Potions after the year.

DD told Harry that the position is cursed, even though it has been a running joke throughout the series he finally provides confirmation. I wander if Harry will remember this and start to think, as we all have, why DD would give his trusted Snape a cursed job?

T Vrana - Slughorn does make a vauge comment about Sanpe and Potions at the Christmas Party, he is commenting on Harry's outstanding potions ability and states "I have taught few with this kind of ability - why even Severus -", so even though he does not come right out and say that Severus was excellent whilst at school I believe he is inferring that he had a great deal of talent but perhaps even Snape was not as talented as Harry (which must have greatly annoyed Snape!)

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Aug 1, 2005 7:27 am (#327 of 530)

I just have a few comments on the whole Snape thing. I've been going back and listening/re-reading OoP. The chapter "Occlumency" is very intriguing in light of HBP. First of all, when Snape sees Harry being tormented by the Dursleys, he seems to soften a bit. Like he realizes that Harry isn't completely like James...he hasn't always been the favored child. Also, Snape goes on to say that "Fools wear the hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers!"

I've just had a few thoughts as I was typing that. Could Snape hate James for a reason more than just picking on him. Could he actually believe that if Lily had chosen him, he could have protected her better than James would have because he could have protected his mind enough to give LV a run for his money, and had James been a better Legilmens, he would have known that Wormtail was a...well...worm. surely not. anyways,

Although, DD understands that Harry's ability to love and be loved is a great strength, he asked Snape to teach him to Occ., which is basically detatching yourself from your emotions. Alright, we know that Harry had to learn to keep LV from getting into his head that year, but I think there is a greater lesson that DD wanted Harry to learn. Even DD doesn't show alot of emotion. As a matter of fact, only when JKR wants to give us clues, does he really even show his true feelings in OoP. Anyways, Maybe part of the reason Snape is always provoking HArry is to teach him how to control his feelings and use his head.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 1, 2005 8:49 am (#328 of 530)

greta-

Thanks for that reminder. Just reread the party scene and Slughorn seems to suggest, twice, that Harry is better than Snape was. Seeems like Lily may have been helping Snape...

- - - - - - - - - -
constant vigilance - Aug 1, 2005 9:42 am (#329 of 530)

art student
Now we really are sounding like Moody. Brandi

::blush:: yes, Moody and I have some startling similarities. I tend to be wary of those who never show his/her true feelings. I had hoped that in Book 6 I would be wrong about my view of Snape...but alas I wait to find if I am wrong in Book 7.Although, I always had a suspicion that with regards to Snape's loyalties, Harry, Ron, Sirius and Moody would be right. Dumbledore and Hermione are often right about how they read people...but I felt like it was Ron & Sirius's turn to be correct about Snape.

Anyway, I still don't like the idea that Dumbledore was fooled by the fox-like Snape. Although, Dumbledore's death--the reason--was because of Dumbledore's greatest strength also being he's greatest weakness. It was well-known in the Wizarding World that Dumbledore prefered to believe that people could change. He had a reputation for giving second chances where others, such as Moody, would not. It only makes sense, in literary terms, that this caused Dumbledore's downfall.

Having said that I, personally, think that Dumbledore may have placed Snape in the DADA position as a test. Perhaps Dumbledore began to question his trust in Snape. I just can't help being boggled by Dumbledore's final words. There was no surprise in the description of his voice. He was maybe hoping Snape would curtiously spare Dumbledore's life as repayment for Dumbledore keeping Snape out of Azkaban.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ag Hart - Aug 1, 2005 9:49 am (#330 of 530)

T Vrana-- Excellent point and that may indeed be the real reason that DD didn't offer Snape the position. I believe the other is the one generally thought to be true by other characters. I suppose both are possible.

The idea that Lily was so skilled at Potions, even creative, struck me also. We had always heard that she was good at charms, and now suddenly we hear she was great at Potions. It seemed that it might be one of those necessary bits of information we need to have prior to Book 7. JKR might need to supply us with that "clue" in order to deliver logically the something huge about Lily that she promised in Book 7. I had the idea that the revelation would explain why Harry survived, although it could relate to the Snape-Lily connection.

Has anyone speculated as to whether Voldemort knew about the Unbreakable Vow? I would imagine he would as Bella seems to style herself as his most loyal servant, and Wormtail, I suspect, isn't simply being nosy. Perhaps Voldemort wanted to punish Lucius, make sure the deed was done, and ascertain Snape's loyalty once and for all.

I was also struck with how majestic Snape came across in Spinner's End--gracious with Narcissa, haughty with Bella. He was both dismissive of Wormtail and commanding. He was totally in control. One could visualize him as a Dark Lord himself. Nevertheless, at present I still feel that he is loyal to DD. I do not believe that he is good, but if he is loyal to DD that will be a great triumph of good over evil. It gets back to the moral question of where does moral goodness primarily lie, with one who is not tempted to evil or one who struggles to overcome it? If Snape overcomes his evil tendencies that will be a great moral victory.

constant vigilance--The idea that DD's strength is also his greatest weakness is in keeping with one view of a tragic flaw I have come across: The flaw that leads to the hero's downfall is actually a result of an excessive of perfection. At this point, however, I still think DD knew what he was doing, but that could change.

- - - - - - - - - -
mischiefmanager - Aug 1, 2005 10:06 am (#331 of 530)

That's a most interesting question, why DD finally gave Snape the DADA job. One could argue that Snape, in killing DD, justified DD's own awareness of Snape's essential character flaw. That is, DD refused for 16 years to give Snape the DADA job, fearing that it would let Snape's attraction to the dark arts dominate him. And it appears his instinct proved to be right. Even if one assumes that there was a prior agreement between the two of them about DD's death, it's hard to imagine any other Order member allowing him or herself to be put into a position that would require the killing of an ally.

I can't see DD deciding that the only way to get Slughorn back to Hogwarts was to assign him to Potions. If he needed Slughorn there, he was inventive enough to figure out a way without letting Snape teach DADA. I agree that he allows Harry to prove himself in many situations, but I'm not sure I agree that DD would deliberately set up a test situation with something as risky as the DADA situation. I can only believe that DD's own need to believe in Snape blinded him to the reality of Snape's character. It's really hard to figure out, especially since DD himself calls Snape's Occlumency lessons with Harry a fiasco and acknowledges that Snape still hasn't gotten over his hatred of James. Despite knowing all that, he still let Snape teach DADA. I can't think of a tactical reason for that. Only a psychological reason works for me.

I don't believe for a minute that Snape felt anything for Lily. He is not a man who desires or values love, and we have no evidence that he ever did. In fact, looking at the Slytherins we know best (Tom, Snape and Draco), it can be argued that some people who don't get the love they need as children turn to the dark arts to compensate for their feelings of worthlessness and powerlessness. Harry, in contrast, seemed to know deep within himself throughout his life that he had been loved by his parents, and that knowledge kept him from following the path the 3 mentioned above took. (Yes, Narcissa loves Draco, but it appears that Lucius is the dominant parent in the house and he's none too nurturing.)I agree that we still are lacking some essential information about Godric's Hollow and Snape's role in it, but I see nothing in canon that would suggest that Snape cared anything at all about Lily.

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Aug 1, 2005 12:07 pm (#332 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
T Vrana - All points well taken! With you, I'm really starting to think now that Lily was the expert at potions and helped Snape. I had never thought of why he wasn't ever brewing anything in class before. Perhaps his "heart" was never really in it as potions was possibily Lily's forte and being in that same classroom, teaching those potions that he partnered with Lily on was at times too much for him to bear - hence some of the reason for his foul mood and taking out on students, especially Harry and his pals.

To Surtseystwin - Hey, thanks for liking my post! I appreciate it since I've only been a part of the Forum for a little over a week now. Reading all of the insightful ideas people are posting and the nice and respectful conversations that go on here is so wonderful. It's a gift really to be able to share our fondness of HP together.

Now, back to Snape commenting on Tonks' new patronus. I personally think he's been really hurt by opening up his private side at one time (affection/attraction for Lily), so he plays his cards close to the chest. So, the Order of the Phoenix know each other's patronuses as this is how they communicate, so they all must know what Snape's is. We just don't. Drat it! If Snape *can help it*, he wouldn't let his patronus show any private secret side of himself for either the Order or for the DE's to see. Do you think the DE's have a version of "evil patronuses", since we know patronuses are good things that protect from evil? Like if Snape's is a big snake, that doesn't look good for the theory of his being on the good side. And if it's something good, like someone mentioned before in an earlier post, like a fluffy white kitten :-), then the jig would be up with the LV and the DE's. And I agree that Snape must have known for a while about Tonks/Lupin and what it meant.

Now, some have posted predictions for Book 7 that the DE's go after Tonks because they know Lupin loves her...how would they have found that out? Snape would be the only one (or could they find out another way) who could tell them this. If this happens, then there is no way he's on the good side. (And I will be very sad indeed if this happens and Snape lets me down.) [Hope the editors think this fits within this subject folder - if not, I'm sorry!]

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Aug 1, 2005 12:12 pm (#333 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Aug 1, 2005 12:17 pm
mischiefmanager - (By the way, I love your name.) Question for you- Do you think Snape could've have experienced love from his mother? JKR says that what makes Snape worse than LV is the fact that he has experienced love. I think she meant a mother's love. And if you believe he did, then I think that can give him the capability to love in other ways as well. I just can't believe that Snape really is a complete sociopath like Tom Riddle/Voldy. I know he talks the talk, but up to his killing DD (and the jury is still out on the way that happened), he has helped and/or saved Harry enough to make me question all of his apparent badness.

- - - - - - - - - -
David Olson - Aug 1, 2005 1:12 pm (#334 of 530)


I'm really starting to think now that Lily was the expert at potions and helped Snape. ...


I'm a little baffed by the lack of respect Lily has gotten recently. She was Head Girl, after all, which means she was quite talented. We should not be surprised to find out that she is unusually talented at potions, or anything else for that matter.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Aug 1, 2005 1:28 pm (#335 of 530)

Maybe I've bene thinking backwards. JKR said that Snape had been loved, so he was more culpable than LV. Maybe Lily actually liked/loved him. Aside from his mum. Perhaps she was excellent at Potions and helped Snape. He was too interested in Dark Arts, though, rejected her and she said fine then, i'll just fall in love with your worst nightmare/enemy. It's not totally unrational to think that Miss Popularity could have a crush on the Geek. Perhaps even a sort of "Florence Nightengale" thing only instead of a sick person, it's her helping him with homework. Maybe I'm just grasping at straws.

- - - - - - - - - -
mischiefmanager - Aug 1, 2005 3:40 pm (#336 of 530)

Thanks, Valfunde!

Yes, I do think Snape's mom loved him (but not enough, apparently, to teach him the basics of personal hygiene...oh well, all of us parents have our failures). Which means that JKR is quite right-he should know better than Tom. But I still see no canonical evidence of any sort that he had any feelings for Lily, or anyone else, for that matter. Yes, he bails Harry out a few times, but if he wants to stay on DD's good side, he has to do that. And he makes up for it with his nastiness to Harry. How can someone who has known love behave that way? Eileen Prince Snape's love for her son apparently wasn't strong enough to teach her son to give love, or maybe he just expected everyone else to love him unconditionally the way his mom probably did. And when they didn't, maybe he just gave up on the whole thing.

My 19 year old son suggested that maybe Snape's behavior towards Harry is an attempt to toughen him up. Wasn't it Hemingway who once said, "Wouldn't it be pretty to think so?"? Yes, I can see Snape belonging to the tough love school, but he seems to have forgotten the love part and put all his efforts into being tough, except with a selected few students whose parents can be of use to him.

- - - - - - - - - -
Kratze - Aug 1, 2005 3:58 pm (#337 of 530)

Valfunde said "I personally think he's been really hurt by opening up his private side at one time ..., so he plays his cards close to the chest. "

It is SO hard not to turn this thread into a general Snape analysis. But I do want to point out that Snape actually has a pretty lousy track record of keeping his emotions under control. Granted, he showed more emotional control this book than all the others combined, and did it under pressure too so kudos to Gina there :-), but he's lost it to the point of frothing at the mouth more than once (POA - "THIS! Has something.. to do.. with.. POTTER!"), has blown up at Harry both privately and publicly so many times I've lost count (threw a jar of roaches at him, even), and when he is 'under control', he's just plain cold and often cruel. One or the other, never really balances out...

How does somebody that tempermental become a skilled occulmens? Because frankly, he loses it way too often for me to accept that he's the master of his own emotions.

Perhaps DD is actually depending on this ? If Snape did try to become the next Dark Lord, I just can't see him inspiring the same level of dedication that Bellatrix shows Lord Voldiemort.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ag Hart - Aug 1, 2005 5:12 pm (#338 of 530)

mischiefmaker-- A very revealing and tantalizing moniker, I trust it hints at what we can expect from you.

I don't think that hiring Slughorn was the only way to get him to cooperate, but it fits in with Dumbledore's overall plan. It showcases his persuasive as opposed to coercive power. DD gives Slughorn the option of employment and allows him to make the choice. He gets Harry to tempt him by appealing to Slughorn's need to "collect trophies" in order to enhance his own self-importance as well as his fixation on Lily. The position places him in almost daily contact with Harry so that Harry can act on DD's orders and get the missing piece of the puzzle, the memory, that DD and Harry need to defeat Voldemort. We get a great opportunity to see how DD's plan unfolds, to realize how shrewd he is, and how well he understands human nature. (One of many reasons I find it difficult to believe that Snape could hoodwink him.) It may not be the only way, but it is the best way. Not only does Dumbledore get the memory he requires, but also a top-notch teacher -- certainly an improvement over some of his hirings.

T Vrana--Considering your theory, why do you think DD risked losing Snape to the curse, especially in light of his apparent trust? Any theories? I suppose even having offered the Potions position to Slughorn, he could have found another position for a man of Snape's extraordinary talents? There must be something else we haven't considered.

- - - - - - - - - -
mischiefmanager - Aug 1, 2005 5:40 pm (#339 of 530)

I'll agree that DD showed a lot of insight into human nature. But he did have some conspicuous failures, and generally, it appears, with people for whom he cared. Harry is the most obvious example-DD fails to give him information that would have enabled Harry to understand why he needed to learn Occlumancy, which would have prevented the Department of Mysteries fiasco, which would have meant that Sirius would not have died. And Sirius himself-how could DD have believed that keeping him confined to GP was the best course of action? Likewise with Snape-DD saw what he wanted to see rather than what was actually there, because he was emotionally invested in Snape's redemption. I don't think Snape hoodwinked DD at all. I think DD hoodwinked himself.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 1, 2005 5:43 pm (#340 of 530)

Edited Aug 1, 2005 7:09 pm
Ag Hart-

I saw this as further evidence that DD knew about the Unbreakable Vow (UV), and that Snape would be leaving to go deeper under cover with LV. It is possible as the UV seems to have happened just before DD hires Slughorn.

DD's multifaceted plan:

Get Slughorn's memory, solidify his theory there's more than one horcrux (and actually 7), bring Harry up to speed, put Snape in a position to help Harry from the inside while sparing Malfoy. (And isn't Harry going to need it? He panicked in the cave forgetting that DD had just told him fire would work on the inferi, and he can't get a single curse off at Snape. Plus, every bit of dark magic [DD's hand, necklace, wine (HBP)] needed Snape to fix it.)

EDIT- While I'm not one of those who think DD planned or faked his death, I think he did have a sense of urgency to get the above done before he did die. Injuring his hand getting the first horcrux had to bring home to him that he might not be around to help Harry get all the horcruxes and LV. And then the vow was due to force the situation at some point. I still contend DD intended to go on until a sacrifice was necessary, and that came about on the tower. I also think, and I'm sure this is fairly obvious to all, DD was having a blast working on this with Harry.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ag Hart - Aug 1, 2005 11:48 pm (#341 of 530)

mischiefmanager-- I understand that Dumbledore makes mistakes, but I have problems believing that he could make so many mistakes, that not only was he so wrong throughout HPB, but that Harry was so right as to the impending danger posed by both Draco and Snape. It seems totally out of character for DD, and Harry doesn't exactly have a great track record as he is often blinded by his own prejudices. Actually, we do come to realize that DD wasn't as unaware as we might have imagined regarding Draco. Harry seems so frustrated when DD doesn't appear to take him seriously, but on the tower we learn not only DD's true reasons for seeming to dismiss Harry's warnings, but also that he was aware of the situation all along. If DD wasn't truly ignorant and trusting in Draco's case, I believe we may find that he was equally aware of the rest of the situation.

T Vrana-- That sounds logical. As you probably know by now, I think DD did know about the UV, if not from Snape at the start of term, at least, from Harry later on. I agree that DD didn't plan his death but that he was willing, as you say, to make the sacrifice when it became necessary. Since we know that DD knew what Draco was up to, it is very likely that he anticipated the need for his death. This may be one way that DD extends "mercy" to Draco.

I know this is not particularly applicable to this thread, but I never really thought that Dumbledore was all that wrong in OotP. At the end, DD explains that he ignored Harry because he thought he saw a shadow of Voldemort behind his eyes and as he feared Voldemort would attempt to control Harry to get to him, he wanted to protect Harry. We know that his suspicions were correct and that Voldemort does take control of Harry in the Ministry in an attempt to induce DD to kill Harry. Moreover, Snape provides Harry with enough of an explanation for the necessity of Occlumency lessons so that Harry realizes that Voldemort " 'might try and make [him] do things' " (Scholastic, 533). Harry is not left totally in the dark as to the significance of his tutorials. The disaster is due to a myriad of reasons besides DD's mistakes which are justifiable. Yes, someone other than Snape would have been better, but who, since it is an "obscure art" and DD couldn't risk doing it? In any case, Harry wouldn't really have been able to learn Occlumency because his emotional temperament, as Dumbledore acknowledges in HBP, renders him unsuitable for the art. Trying to teach him Occlumency was probably the mistake. I've always felt that DD overstated his own guilt in order to assuage Harry's intense guilt and suffering over Sirius's death and his friends injuries. I think this is in keeping with his nature and his willingness to assume necessary burdens which we also see in HBP.

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2005 1:41 pm (#342 of 530)

A few comments on recent posts.

At the Christmas party, Slughorn's "even you Snape.." seems to say that Harry's getting the particular potion in question so perfect the first time that his talent seems even better than Snape's talent (making Snape's talent apparently considerable, or why compare Harry to him?). But of course, in fact Harry got it so perfect the first time because he was actually copying from Snape's notes, perfected perhaps over time. I don't think this conversation in any way indicates a lesser potions talent for Snape, whom even DD has always held up as an extremely gifted potions maker.

"It is SO hard not to turn this thread into a general Snape analysis. But I do want to point out that Snape actually has a pretty lousy track record of keeping his emotions under control. Granted, he showed more emotional control this book than all the others combined, and did it under pressure too so kudos to Gina there :-), but he's lost it to the point of frothing at the mouth more than once (POA - "THIS! Has something.. to do.. with.. POTTER!"), has blown up at Harry both privately and publicly so many times I've lost count (threw a jar of roaches at him, even), and when he is 'under control', he's just plain cold and often cruel. One or the other, never really balances out..."

"How does somebody that tempermental become a skilled occulmens? Because frankly, he loses it way too often for me to accept that he's the master of his own emotions."

I looked back at the quotes from GoF and the Occlumency chapter, where SS so derides anyone who wears his heart on his sleeve. This speech has always sounded to me like someone who has taken his own weaknesses and so hated his weaknesses as to work very hard to overcome them -- hence his mastery of occlumency. But emotions are still one of his weaknesses and when he "looses it" he looses it in a big way.

By the end of book six, I feel like there's a long backlog of reasons why DD trusts SS so much. Sure, there's some initial reason that DD clearly won't tell Harry -- maybe related to a relationship with Lily of some sort. But by the end of Book 6, there's lots more -- the incredible risks SS takes for the Order, the times he's been there to try and help Harry (for better or worse), his willingness to show the mark to Fudge and try to convince him of LV's return, his helping DD when his arm is injured so badly, giving the Order (and sometimes apparently just DD) lots of invaluable info, possibly even about the horcruxes. And there's probably a lot of other stuff JKR just hasn't told us yet -- hence all our speculation. But my point is that I don't think it's One Big Reason, but more likely a lot of reasons over 16 years. Unlike the other professors and others in the Order, we've seen SS tell DD on numerous occasions when he disagrees with him. Yet from what DD has said, SS continues to always follow through and follow DD. There's a lot to be said for that.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 2, 2005 9:06 pm (#343 of 530)

Edited by Detail Seeker Aug 3, 2005 3:33 pm
wynnleaf- I think you are right when you say when SS looses it he looses it in a big way, but is it really all that often? I think it is in these moments we learn the most about SS. Have not looked for all the moments, but some examples:

POA- SS in the shrieking shack described as looking "madder" than ever (crazy not angry) is ready to take Black to the dementors for a kiss and is calling Harry too arrogant, like his dad, to believe he might be wrong about Black. Lily guilt here. I still hold SS tried to save Lily by telling DD Black might not be trustworthy, James ignored advice. (Ultimately, Black not the bad guy, but SS did not know this at the moment...)

POA- Black gone, SS still thinks Black contibuted to Lily's death, beside himself that Potter is involved in Black escaping.

OotP- Snape's worst memory- jar of cockroaches thrown at Harry-told never to return by near rabid Snape- some brilliant poster, forget who, pointed out that Snape's worst memory probably had nothing to do with James. Over the years these run-ins were probably more numerous than one, so why was this Snape's worst memory? In his anger and humiliation he calls Lily a mudblood.

HBP- When Harry calls Snape a coward for the second time and links it to "killing him" (DD I assume) Snape looses it, my thought, because in all reality Snape is risking more than any other member of the OotP if he is still on DD's side

I'm sure there are other examples, but for starters, it seems that SS's outburts give us a better picture of what is really up with him.

Hope this makes sense..

: Please everybody, do not abbreviate Snape as "SS", as this ist the "official" abbreviation of Book 1 for America already. And Snape really does not need an Abbreviation. Thank You ! Detail Seeker

- - - - - - - - - -
Gregory Royal - Aug 4, 2005 11:01 am (#344 of 530)

Mr.
Let me just say that I believe Dumbledore and Snape worked all of this out.

Voldemort's curse apparently ruins anyone who takes on DADA. Something horrible happens to them. Dumbledore knows this. Why in the Leaky Cauldron would he give it to Snape unless he knew he wouldn't be returning?

That said, many people were wondering whether or not Snape really knew Voldemort's plan -- if so, why would he question Draco so much? Simple. He wanted to know just WHAT he was going to do. He knew what he must do but the HOW of it was confusing Snape and Dumbledore insisted he find out.

Snape told Dumbledore he didn't want to do something; Dumbledore told him that he must, end of discussion. What else could it possibly be aside from killing Dumbledore?

- - - - - - - - - -
Wizadora - Aug 4, 2005 11:17 am (#345 of 530)

Edited by S.E. Jones Aug 8, 2005 7:36 pm
The only possible other explanation for what DD asked Snape in the forest that I can think of it to come clean as an Member of the Order? And stop being a spy. But that does not really make sense to me either. Why would that help? Hagrid says Snape complained DD "assumes too much" and that "maybe he doesn't want to". DD Assumes - 1. Snape will Kill him? 2. Snape will risk his own life by coming out of the dark closet? 3. Help Draco at all costs? 4. Help DD with the Horcruxes? 5. Not tell anyone about the reason he trusts him? ... Any of these could be true but they all seem to lean toward Snape having to go deeper into the DE than coming away from the DE. It does not make sense for me to have DD ask Snape to do anything other than keep his cover, so that tells me that Snape is good.

Does this make any sense?

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2005 12:53 pm (#346 of 530)

"Snape told Dumbledore he didn't want to do something; Dumbledore told him that he must, end of discussion. What else could it possibly be aside from killing Dumbledore?"

Granted, I've used the conversation Hagrid overheard to explain things this way, too. But there's something about the way Hagrid relates the conversation that makes this explanation not ring quite right. The way Hagrid describes what he heard, it sounds like Snape is feeling like DD is asking a great deal of him -- maybe more than he really wants to do, maybe more than he thinks he can take on. I just can't picture Snape would use that line of argument if they were also discussing DD's dying. I mean what's that really saying? In the midst of talking about DD having to die, Snape says DD's asking to much of him? Snape? I don't think this is how someone would react to being asked to kill a person they deeply respect (and yes, I think Snape really respects DD). Sure, maybe a "I couldn't possibly do that!" or "How could I do that to you?" But a sort of "that's too much to ask of me" line just doesn't feel right if DD's death is the question.

I tend to think DD is asking Snape to do something very, very difficult -- even more so than he's doing already. But I think the focus may have been more on Snape going even further "under cover" as a result of the actions DD and Snape were planning.

I'm afraid I'm leaning toward the "DD's not dead" camp (particularly since the missing sentence oddity came up in other threads) -- even though I really didn't originally think JKR would have a fake death. Still, a fake death would explain why DD and Snape could discuss the plan, even including the supposed death, without Snape seeming totally self-centered when he tells DD that DD is asking too much of him. Whereas, if they are really discussing DD's actual death, then Snape seems self-centered in focusing on what's too much for him to take on.

Hope that made sense!

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Aug 4, 2005 12:55 pm (#347 of 530)

Librarian
OK, I've tried searching with no luck. What is the missing sentence? In which edition does it appear?

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2005 1:06 pm (#348 of 530)

Sorry, but I don't have my book at hand.

Try this link

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

and at the dumbledoreisnotdead site, they have the text printed out as it appears in both the American and UK versions.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I've checked in several different forums and numerous people have compared the two versions, so evidently this isn't some sort of rumour or hoax or whatever. I wish we had a thread on it here in the Lexicon, because while it's clearly an accident, it's certainly no typo. It's obvious that the lines -- either added to the American version, or accidently left in when they were supposed to be deleted -- are very important.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Aug 4, 2005 1:56 pm (#349 of 530)

Librarian
wynnleaf, Muchas gracias!

- - - - - - - - - -
Eunice - Aug 5, 2005 4:29 am (#350 of 530)

*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
wynnleaf, those links are stunning! Many thanks, I found it extremely interesting.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 351 to 400)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:32 am

youkifriend - Aug 6, 2005 5:58 am (#351 of 530)
"What would the revelations about Snape being a half-blood have blown open? I honestly don't know. But I think the mystery of DD's trust lies somewhere in the revelations about Snape's parentage. "

It's just obvious! The DE wouldn't have allowed half bloods in their circle. or would they?

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 6, 2005 6:31 am (#352 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
If Hermione found out about Snape’s parents, then it stands to reason others could too. Perhaps Voldemort ordered Snape to atone for his parentage by killing one or both of his parents as Voldemort has done by killing his own father.

One way it could have happened is Snape is ordered to kill his Muggle father. He complies, as he hates his father. Later Voldemort adds to the task ordering him to kill his mother. Snape cannot do this so he goes to Dumbledore for help. Dumbledore fakes Mama Snape’s death and hides her. Snape is now indebted to Dumbledore and continues his loyalty to Dumbledore to protect his mother.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 6, 2005 6:40 am (#353 of 530)

Youkifriend-

It is unlike DD to put any value, either way, in parentage. It is also likely that he has always known Snape's parentage, as Headmaster, and that did not prevent Snape from becoming a DE.

DD said that love is the only thing stronger than the lure of power like LV's. It is very like DD to trust the power of love. Snape loved someone, and all the clues seem to add up to Lily.

As far as DEs allowing a half-blood, Snape could share his disgust with his muggle father and LV could certainly identify on some level. As Hermione pointed out, if only purebloods were allowed, there would not be many DEs.

Abracapocus- Possible, but could DD forgive Snape for murdering his father? That would put Snape right up there with LV on level of evil. If we are to have sympathy for Snape, which JK has certainly introduced via Harry's occlumency lessons and pensieve moments, I don't think he can be guilty of patricide.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Aug 6, 2005 8:00 am (#354 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Abracapocus, I think your theory to be completely plausible. And DD could accept Snape, even if he had killed his father. DD gives second chance to people, even to those who have done a lot of evil.


T Vrana - Aug 6, 2005 8:22 am (#355 of 530)[/b]
Yes, DD is forgiving, but if this is true then Snape has to be evil. This is a children's book and a character that murders his father, like LV, is evil. I'm in the group that thinks Snape is not entirely evil, so this one goes a little too far for me. Just a thought...know I could be all wrong.

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 6, 2005 8:51 am (#356 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
T Vrana, I do see your point and I agree. Snape murdering his father is a bit of a stretch for a book read by children… but I still think that Snape’s mother may be the reason for Dumbledore’s trust in Snape. Why give so much emphasis to The Half-Blood Prince storyline?

As others have pointed out on this thread, Snape is skilled at Occlumency and is a “professional liar”. What “story” could he have possibly given Dumbledore that would have been believed so emphatically?

One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

MA: Oh, here’s one [from our forums] that I’ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has.

JKR was very upset that so many females have been so taken with the “bad boys” in the series like Malfoy and Snape. Based on that, I just can’t see romance in Snape’s past or future. But since the theme of LOVE is so important in the series, Snape has been touched by it. With apologies to Gina, I see Snape as a character that only a mother could love. If Death Eater mothers (Narcissa) can strongly love their sons, why wouldn’t it stand to reason that a Death Eater could love his mother?

This may also give more understanding to why Snape took the Unbreakable Vow.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 6, 2005 9:14 am (#357 of 530)

Excellent points. I can see Snape's mother being the love element.

On the romance side, I'm not sure I thought of Snape's possible love for Lily as a relationship. I thought of it more as her being kind to him, and his having an obsessive, but unrequited, love for her (Slughorn comments how dangerous obsessive love can be when discussing love potions).

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Aug 6, 2005 1:56 pm (#358 of 530)

"I thought of it more as her being kind to him, and his having an obsessive, but unrequited, love for her (Slughorn comments how dangerous obsessive love can be when discussing love potions)."

I also thought of Snape when I first read Slughorn's remark about obsessive love. I don't know why, because I don't think we've got any evidence of it, but I have this gut feeling that if Snape did love Lily, it was obsessive. But maybe not.

The lack of any remarks at all from Snape about Lily when speaking to Harry, compared to his ongoing nasty remarks about James, is an almost glaring omission of criticm and meaness, only explained, I believe, by some sort of positive feelings that Snape had for Lily (love or friendship?).

As to who has loved Snape, I tend to think his mother, but paternal or romantic love aren't the only options. There's also deep friendship, which might have come from Lily.

I certainly don't think Snape murdered a parent! While DD might forgive such a thing, I can't believe he'd ever trust such a person. Further, I don't think JKR would have a character who many, many readers sympathize with do that in a children's book. I have a similar concern as T Vrana about pulling the reader back and forth on Snape's loyalty. I was slightly disturbed that Barty Crouch Jr. was such a likeable and seemingly caring person when impersonating Mad Eye Moody, yet he turns out to murder his father and be a DE. But at least that only occurs over one book -- the reader is only deceived just so long. This did in fact confuse my younger kids, who had liked Crouch/Moody up until that point.

As to why DD trusts Snape, many have wondered about Snape's ability with occlumency and what he could possibly tell DD that would make DD trust him, when DD knows Snape can lie so well. Personally, I don't think DD would trust Snape based on anything Snape would say, but on something he did. I don't think it's "what did Snape say to gain DD's trust," but "what did Snape DO to gain DD's trust?" Whatever Snape did, I believe it was directly related to telling LV about the prophecy, LV's deciding to kill Harry, etc. Snape did something at this point (maybe warning that the secret keeper had given the Potter's away? maybe trying to warm them?). But I also think he's done a lot for DD since that time that has built trust -- that is, DD's trust isn't just based on a long-ago incident, but ongoing things as well.

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Aug 6, 2005 9:34 pm (#359 of 530)

As Dumbledore testified in book 4, "Snape was indeed a Death Eater but turned spy for us before Voldemort's defeat, at great risk to himself."

I suspect that it was Snape who tipped Dumbledore off that Voldemort was going after the Potters... "Dumbledore had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off..."
- - - - - - - - - -
Nymphadora Lupin - Aug 7, 2005 12:32 am (#360 of 530)

While I still think Snape was obsessed with Lily, I was intrigued by Abracapocus' theory about DD possibly faking Mama Snape's death to protect her from Voldemort. If this were the case, who are our possible candidates for the role of Mama Snape?

Madam Irma Pince? It's very close to "prince" is it not? Just shuffle that R down the line and you get: Im a Prince...

Again, I'm still banking on a Snape/Lily connection, but thought this might add to Abracapocus' excellent ideas.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Aug 7, 2005 1:32 am (#361 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Oh well Jo likes to use puns, alliterations etc so Im a Prince for Irma Pince isn't so far-fetched...

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 7, 2005 8:09 am (#362 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
How I interpret Snape and Lily. When we witnessed Snape calling Lily a Mudblood, he probably lashed out with the nastiest, most vile word he could think of because not only had he just been publicly humiliated, but to add further insult, this pretty, popular, intelligent girl thought he wasn’t able to defend himself and ran to his rescue. I think this would have embarrassed a prideful, teenaged Snape the most.

Snape and Lily were probably in the same Potions class. The conflict between Gryffindor and Slytherin houses would probably have kept them apart socially – especially if Lupin, James or Sirius took N.E.W.T level potions. Lily was a kind person, but Snape certainly didn’t have the personality or the personal hygiene to draw Lily toward him in friendship. She was nice and he was greasy. Maybe she had just not given him any reason to be nasty toward her or about her after the Pensieve scene. Snape may have been conflicted about Lily’s talent – both jealous and secretly awed by her skill at Potions. Maybe he grew to secretly respect her. I can see him obsessed with the Dark Arts. I just can’t see him obsessed with Lily. Then again "ships" and romance are my least favorite aspects of the stories.

Why I think Snape’s mother is important. Why did Snape call himself the Half-Blood Prince? Obviously, he is a half-blood and his mother’s name was Prince, but why was this so important for JKR to have used it as the title to the book? I knew it was Snape as soon as the handwriting was described and it didn’t surprise me at all that Snape was more knowledgeable than the writer of the textbook. So what was the point of Snape using this pseudonym and JKR using it for the title of the sixth book?

Slytherin House and the Death Eaters are known for only accepting Purebloods. Yet Snape is accepted by both. Voldemort is a Half-blood and the sorting hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin, therefore, a Half-Blood Slytherin or a Half-blood Death Eater is rare but not completely unheard of. So the Half-Blood part, while important, may not be the most important part of the name.

Snape could have used Prince to feel more impressive with its connection to royalty, but considering that we have no knowledge that anyone else knew about the moniker, what would be the point? I think it was perhaps he was proud of his mother and it was a pretty clever way to introduce her to the story.

JKR is providing answers now… in abundance. Why bring up bring Snape’s mother if she is not very important to the story?

Nymphadora Lupin and septentrion, wow I hadn't gotten that far! Madam Pince... hmmm.

Edit: But it seems now that in further supporting my idea, I have strayed off the topic of Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape. I think it relates to Dumbledore possibly protecting/hiding Snape's mother.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 7, 2005 11:38 am (#363 of 530)

Madame Pince as Snape's mom- very possible. Description of her in HBP includes "her long hooked nose..."

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Aug 7, 2005 4:20 pm (#364 of 530)

Madam Pince. That sounds just like something JKR would do.

I forget....Doesn't HBP mention that Snape's mamma was Half Blood also? Maybe I'm remembering wrongly.

It is definately implied that Slytherine House, and the DE's are very negative about Muggle born wizards, but in school, via his Potions book, Snape seems almost proud of his "Half-Blood" heritage.

I could almost seeing Snape as a person who was put in Slytherine because he was ambitious, not because he really cared one way or the other about parentage. He was disliked and made fun of by most of his peers. He, possibly found acceptance in other Slytherines, where as other's wouldn't give him the time of day. I think maybe he just got mixed up with the wrong crowd. In doing so he became immersed in the Dark Arts as so many of his fellow Slytherines were.

I think at some point, possibly the point when LV asked him for proof of his loyalty and hate for Muggle borns and kill Mamma Snape, Snape was jolted back into reality. It was then that he went to DD.

I think he perhaps hates Neville for similar reasons. LV and the DE's were so hung up on being pure-blood, but maybe Snape resents Neville, because LV chose the "half-blood" Harry over "purer-blood" Neville. Perhaps this helped to disillusion Snape to the whole gammit of DE propaganda.
- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Aug 7, 2005 5:59 pm (#365 of 530)

Irma Pince really Snape's mom??? Wow, this is funny! -- No, I'm not making fun of the theory! It's just so funny because it actually fits her description. I looked in the Lexicon page on Madam Pince and it describes her (I'm not sure which books this all comes from) as older, nasty to students, puts nasty spells on books to make sure they get returned on time, thin and irritable appearance, looks like an underfed vulture (CS10), shriveled face (OP29), vulture-like (GF26), older, old-fashioned librarian (guardian of the books), protects her books from nasty, scabby little students.

Sounds like the type that could be Snape's mom, doesn't it? And T Vrana says that HBP says she has a long hooked nose.

It would be so amazing if this one turned out to be true. It just seems so far-fetched to me. On the other hand, by her description she certainly does sound like she could be related to Snape!

Irma Pince -- I'm a Prince. That would be priceless!

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Aug 7, 2005 6:19 pm (#366 of 530)

Pince looks like an underfed vulture... Boggart Snape was dressed in that vulture hat, and the real Snape got one for Christmas that year...

Trying to find connections between Pince and Snape, and I came up with that...

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Aug 7, 2005 8:00 pm (#367 of 530)

Hmm. If Madam Pince is Snape's Mommy, what would she say if she knew that her baby boy had....(insert mellodramatic gasp)......written in his text book. Maybe that's why he was so keen to get it back. He didn't want to be discovered as someone who scribbles in his textbooks.

- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Aug 7, 2005 8:15 pm (#368 of 530)

Maybe that was why Pince was so keen to get her hands on the text when she saw it in the library. Did she recognize the handwriting?

- - - - - - - - - -
constant vigilance - Aug 7, 2005 8:45 pm (#369 of 530)

art student
good catch! Irma Pince = I'm a Prince. Now that it has been mentioned, there are stricking similarities between Madime Pince and Snape.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Aug 8, 2005 2:38 am (#370 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Susurro Notities, you're on something. What if that wild theory came true ? It'd be as good as DIGS ! LOL

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Aug 8, 2005 4:30 am (#371 of 530)

I was looking in HBP for mention of Madam Pince. I remembered that many people at DD's funeral got brief descriptions and, out of curiosity wanted to see if she was mentioned there. Harry sees Madam Pince standing with Filtch wearing a heavy veil that reaches to her knees.

As I considered it I realized that if she were really Eileen Prince she'd need to conceal herself at such a public event where people who could possibly recognize her would be in attendence.

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 8, 2005 5:39 am (#372 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
Even if this is not true, it certainly should be!! What a great catch Nymphadora Lupin!! I(r)m a P(r)ince. I am going to be chuckling all day.

Can you imagine if the Filch/Pince "ship" is also true?

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Aug 8, 2005 7:59 am (#373 of 530)

Filch certainly seems to show up when Snape needs a hand...

Could also be why JKR said that the married spouses were a well-kept secret...

Also ties in with who loved Snape...

Wow!

Where is the hook-nosed description in HBP?
- - - - - - - - - -

- - - - - - - - - - [b]
T Vrana - Aug 8, 2005 8:18 am (#374 of 530)

"Where is the hook-nosed description in HBP?"

In the library, just before Pince sees the writing in the HBP's potions book. (page 307 Scholastic, US)

- - - - - - - - - -
Briar Rose - Aug 8, 2005 10:13 am (#375 of 530)

"Yes, it is easy to see that nearly six years of magical education have not been wasted on you, Potter. Ghosts are transparent ."
Excellent observation Nymphadora Lupin! This Irma Prince=I am Prince theory is very interesting. I was looking through HBP for a description of Eileen Prince. In Chapter 25- The Seer Overheard it is mentioned that Eileen was skinny, not pretty, looked cross and sullen, she had heavy brows and a long pallid face.

I wouldn't be surprised if Madam Pince is Snape's mother. Especially Madam Pince's hook-nosed description convinced me. If she is Snape's mother than being at Hogwarts has kept her save from the Death Eaters. Interesting...

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Aug 8, 2005 12:29 pm (#376 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Aug 8, 2005 1:08 pm
Nymphadora Lupin -Amazing! LOL when I first read your post, but couldn't get to sleep last night because I couldn't get it out of my mind! Madam Pince has always been so nasty to students throughout the whole series and she fits the description of Snape's mom with her hooked nose, nasty attitude to the kids, and well, just everything else. Her age is about right too. She goes CRAZY when students write in the books! Ha! She is the archetype of the nasty and cruel dried up old librarian. The pun of her name is mind-blowing. JKR would do this. She made the one who ratted on his friends, PP, literally into a rat! Why wouldn't Elieen Prince be transformed by DD's "wizard-protection program" (someone else used this in another post and I love it) into I(r)ma Pince?! This is what DD completely offers to Draco up on the tower. This would completely explain how and why DD could trust Snape and which side Snape is on, if DD secretly did this for him. (By the way, I'm sorry if this is off topic, but is it really true that the UK versions of HBP DON'T have this part of DD's talk to Draco about pretending you and your family are dead and the Order can protect you from LV in this way? Is it only in the American version that has this? If this is true and an editing mistake occured and the UK version shows what JKR really wanted, then perhaps she edited this out because she thought it gave away too much information...)

Also, I like how others have posted on the problem of viewing characters as being good or evil with no in between. I think that Snape and Irma Pince (if it's his mom) and others (Umbridge?! Percy?!yuck!) are shades of grey. Some darker than others. Even the good guys exhibit less than perfect character traits at times. Snape has a caustic wit and I must admit some of the funniest things in the HP books for me have been his sarcastic comments to Harry and the other students. Some go too far, are personally hurtful, and are mean-spirited - like the one he made to Hermione about her teeth. Snape likes the dark, dresses in all black, and lives in the dungeon. This probably helps him survive and fit in with LV and the DE's too if he is truly deeply-undercover, if you believe he is still on the side of the Order. But, this doesn't mean he's pure evil either and if he hasn't truly repented and things are as they seem on the surface, then he still has one more book to redeem himself.

I know in my heart and soul that my DD would never plead for his life. Because of this I believe that even though it looks bad right now, Snape is working for the ultimate/greater good. I think Snape will in some way help Harry in the end with defeating LV. Remember - Don't judge a book by it's cover! On the surface Snape looks and acts like a nasty, goth, faux-vampire, greasy git. On the surface with the information JKR has given us, it looks like Snape killed DD, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't want to see LV's downfall and what might have transpired between DD and Snape. I keep thinking about the heated discussion Hagrid overheard between them.

Sorry for the rambling post everyone...

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 8, 2005 2:51 pm (#377 of 530)

Does anyone know if Filch has a middle name?

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 8, 2005 2:56 pm (#378 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
His name is just listed as Argus Filch on the Lexicon.

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Aug 8, 2005 4:48 pm (#379 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Aug 8, 2005 4:48 pm
To add more observations to the Irma Pince is Snape's Mom Theory - (It's so out there that I just love it. Best of all, it does seem to strangely fit.) Did anyone else catch the description in the "Spinner's End" of ALL of those many, many books lining the walls of the sitting room of Snape's supposed house. Looked like a library, did it not?

Also, have any other teachers at Hogwarts ever mentioned to students the rules of the library like Snape did to Harry at one point. I'm not sure what book it was, but found this at the Lexicon Forum page about the Hogwarts Library - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Snape told Harry he was not permitted to take a library book out of the castle/off school grounds. Plus, how great and ironic would it be for this "Half-Blood Prince" who we only know about calling himself this because of his "defacing" a text book to be the son of the vulture-like and nasty to the bone librarian whose biggest pet peeve in the whole world is to write in the books. Yes, it's stretching it a bit I know...but it's so much fun!

- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Aug 8, 2005 6:42 pm (#380 of 530)

Edited by Aug 8, 2005 6:43 pm
septentrion,

In post #370 I assume you meant to say "you're on to something? Not "you're on something'.

- - - - - - - - - -
S.E. Jones - Aug 8, 2005 7:40 pm (#381 of 530)

Let it snow!
Just a quick note: I edited some of the posts in this thread because some members used the abbreviation 'SS' for Snape. Please try to only use the abbreviations listed in the Commonly Used Abbreviations thread to prevent other members from being confused. Following our own Lexicon Steve's example, 'SS' is usually used to abbreviate 'Sorcerer's Stone' (the American title of the first book) and not Severus Snape.

Thank you!

- - - - - - - - - -
Gina R Snape - Aug 8, 2005 7:48 pm (#382 of 530)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Phew. I've been trying to catch up on this thread, but I've found the task daunting!!!!

Anyway, I have two thoughts to post. Firstly, I waver on the idea of DD doing an unbreakable vow with Snape. Such a vow offers no choices and DD likes for people to make choices. However, I could easily see James telling DD "no way do I trust this guy. Only way he's in to help us is with an unbreakable vow." In that case, James Potter could've been the third person as witness, and he's dead now so no other witnesses to the act.

The other thought I had was, what if the thing of great danger that Snape did was to ask the Dark Lord to spare Lily at the behest of Dumbledore? Snape confesses his caring for Lily Potter to DD, and his intense remorse for past actions. DD figures out that the "old magic" would protect Harry if Lily sacrifices herself (in the event the fidelius charm doesn't hide them or something). It's a gamble for anyone to ask the Dark Lord a favour, but especially to spare the muggleborn mother of the child prophesized to bring his downfall.

- - - - - - - - - -
serious black - Aug 8, 2005 8:39 pm (#383 of 530)

First off Madam Pince being Snape's mother is so perfect, and I absolutely love it. It all makes sense, the hooked nose reference is so perfect. Her almost having a siezure to take the potion book back, the fact that Snape is so obsessed with reading, it all fits, even their characters are similar.

But back to why Dumbledore trusts Snape... What is really irking me is why Dumbledore insits that Harry refer to him as PROFESSOR Snape. Every time Harry calls him Snape, Dumbledore immediatelty corrects him with Professor Snape. Even Molly Weasley insists Harry call him Professor Snape and corrects him when he doesn't. When Harry takes Occlumency lessons Snape makes it clear he is to be referred to as Professor or Sir. Why the obsession?

My first thought is that it is important Harry recognizes Snape to be his teacher, the same way he needs to recognize Privet drive to be his home. According to Dumbledore as long as he can call Privet drive a home, he is safe. Perhaps Dumbledore made an unbreakable vow with Snape that as long as Harry can call him a teacher he will try to protect him or something of that nature. I still like the idea Aberforth may have been the bonder for a vow made on that day in the Hogs Head.

Again I love the MPISM (Madam Pince is Snape's Mother) theory.

- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Aug 8, 2005 9:01 pm (#384 of 530)

Two unbreakable vows - maybe - it just seems unlikely - gimicky.

It is possible that Dumbledore (and Molly) insist on Professor Snape because it is proper, good etiquette? After all while surrounded by 3 Death Eaters, 1 mini Death Eater, and a Werewolf Dumbledore says "Jokes? No, no, these are manners,"

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Aug 8, 2005 9:42 pm (#385 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Aug 8, 2005 9:44 pm
I love the MPISM (Madam Pince is Snape's Mother) theory too, Serious Black. In my last post, #379, I couldn't remember in which book Snape talked about breaking a library rule - it's in SS. In re-reading SS I am taken back by actually finding Filch, Madame Pince, and Snape connections. When Snape has been badily bitten by Fluffy, it's Filch who is there helping bandage Snape's leg...interesting! (Wants to get in good with his girlfriend's son? I guess I'm turning into a Filch/Pince 'shipper. Would Filch even know Snape's her son if she's assumed a new identity? What's with Filch being so helpful? Seems out of character to me.)

In SS's "Mirror of Erised" chapter, when Harry, Ron & Hermione are trying to do some research on the "mysterious" Nicolas Flamel in the library, vulture-like Madame Pince brandishes her feather duster (wand in disguise I think, if she's Eileen Prince) at them and gets them out. Then you read this... "He, Ron, and Hermione had already agreed they'd better not ask Madam Pince where they could find Flamel. They were sure she'd be able to tell them, but they couldn't risk SNAPE hearing what they were up to."(pg. 198 US edition) Again, we all know that in the context of the story the three think at this point that Snape is the bad guy and not "Quirrellmort," but to see that it's actually suggested that the librarian would tell Snape and maybe not someone else, like DD, surprised me knowing what we (might) know now after HBP. The theory thickens...what do you all think?

- - - - - - - - - -
Saralinda Again - Aug 8, 2005 10:07 pm (#386 of 530)

My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
She could be Snape's auntie, too. Maybe Eileen had a favorite sister? (Goodness, we're sliding way off topic here!)

Either way, though, having another relative on the staff would tend to keep one on the straight and narrow.

- - - - - - - - - -
Nymphadora Lupin - Aug 8, 2005 11:23 pm (#387 of 530)

Edited Aug 9, 2005 12:20 am
Wow, I am very flattered the Madam Pince idea has developed a following! I'd like to thank Valfunde for elevating it to acronym status (MPISM) and Abracapocus for the wonderful idea that DD might have enlisted Eileen Prince in his Wizard Protection Program.

What do we know about Madam Pince's character in the films? I checked IMDB and there is a listing there for her, but I can't seem to remember her presence. If JKR made it a point to have someone cast in the role, it might bolster the theory. Anyone have any info on this?

I think I'm going to do a reread with the MPISM theory in mind. I'll try and see if I can catch any other clues and see what I come up with. It might be awhile before I can explore this in more detail, however, as I'm packing for an upcoming move to Bulgaria. In fact, this will probably be my last post to the Lexicon for some time, as I don't know when I'll have Internet access. If I do happen to run into Viktor Krum, however, I'll be sure to run the theory by him and see what he says...

Edit: Ok, did some quick research on Madam Pince in CoS and this appears to be the only shot of her in any of the movies. While it is very interesting to note that we see her sitting next to Snape of all people, she does look a bit too young to be his mother. I always envisioned her as older. Does this kill the theory? Maybe she's his sister?

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Aug 9, 2005 1:30 am (#388 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Susurro Notities, of course I meant "you're on to something". My English is sometimes often clumsy.

- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Aug 9, 2005 4:58 am (#389 of 530)

septentrion,

I got a laugh from it! Your English is seldom clumsy - my everything but English is nonexistent so I take my hat off to you!

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 9, 2005 5:09 am (#390 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
Thanks Nymphadora Lupin! I originally posted the idea of Dumbledore hiding Snape's mother to support the title of this thread - Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape?

Saralinda Again, perhaps the MPISM (count me in as a supporter) should be moved to another thread so we can continue to examine it. Can the supporting posts be moved or should/will someone do a summary? I would volunteer but I am afraid because of lack of time, I would not do it justice.

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Aug 9, 2005 11:15 am (#391 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Nymphadora Lupin - I wish I could take credit for the acronym, but it was Serious Black who came up with MPISM! I think it's a very interesting theory that could explain how Snape left LV and the DE's for DD prior to the prophesy. This would explain how he was already spying for DD and told him about LV going after the Potters. (I still think the Snape/Lily theory could fit in with this too.)

I also think that Madame Pince being his mother would be a appropriate twist for what is, at it's heart, a children's series. If bad muggle fathers are key to someone turning to LV, then connections with a mother's love would reinforce the good. If MPISM is true, Snape going to the "right side" to protect his mom in DD's "Wizard/Witch Protection Program" fits with the overall message and theme of the series, doesn't it? DD's offer to protect Draco's mom and Draco in this way was just one of those "wait a minute - what could this mean" moments for me. Just my two knuts worth...hee hee

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Aug 9, 2005 8:04 pm (#392 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Aug 9, 2005 8:09 pm
I see the MPISM theory hasn't yet been moved to a new thread. I'm so new to the Forum, I don't know how to do that yet. I hope it's OK for me to just post this here for right now...

I found a surprising coincidence! In PS/SS, "Quidditch Through the Ages" is the book that Snape takes from Harry while he cites the library's rules not to take the books outside of Hogwarts' castle. Ron says at the time that Snape just made that rule up to be mean to them (or something like that). Then, I find that interestingly enough, DD confirms that Snape did not lie about this rule. In the "muggle-version" of QTTA's "Foreward" DD/JKR writes that Pince is extremely reluctant to let one of the books in her care be made available to Muggles, to the point of Dumbledore actually having to pry each of her fingers individually from the spine of the book to take it from her. Pince also gets to write a warning in muggle "QTTA" threatening the readers that the consequences of mistreating this book will be "as horrible as it is in my power to make them". Gee, who does this remind you of? Sounds very Snapey to me.

My point is I found it surprising that the book Snape takes from Harry so early on in SS is the one that in the Foreward specifically references Pince in such memorable and funny detail (for us muggles) for such a minor character. Plus it's written by DD and even Pince, whom we know next to nothing about, gets to speak up and write directly to us. As far as Hogwarts' staff go, only Snape and Madam Pince herself have taken such a keen interest in library rules, correct? Boy, she hates it when children write in their books! That's why it is so darn funny and plausable to me that the HBP could be her son!

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 10, 2005 4:21 am (#393 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
Rowling said she had planned to use the Half-Blood Prince story line in Chamber of Secrets. Quidditch Through the Ages was published in 2001. If the MPISM theory is true, that means she planted the clue long before she released the title of book six.

Valfunde, could Snape have not wanted to claim ownership of the book for fear that Mum would bust his chops?

- - - - - - - - - -
Valfunde - Aug 10, 2005 10:18 am (#394 of 530)

University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Abracapocus - Ha! Yes, I can see Snape only being afraid of the wrath of the DARK LORD VOLDY and his mom, the evil librarian, once she finds out that the one who wrote in that book is her "ickle Snapey."

But "seriously," I just though it was a surprising coincidence and perhaps a hidden "clue" from JKR herself for the MPISM theory.

I thought I read or heard somewhere on the Lexicon that JKR really outlined and planned major plot points for the whole series very early on, with the writing and publication of PS/SS. She's got a master plan, so something as major as MPISM (if true, of course) as been planned from the very beginning, I would think. Plus, if Madam Pince seeing and going crazy over the HBP's written-in Potions book was originally going to be in the second book, well, that makes even better sense doesn't it, since Pince seems to have more plot presence (minor as it is) in the early books?

- - - - - - - - - -
SPEW Supporter - Aug 10, 2005 12:31 pm (#395 of 530)

I would like to comment on the MPISM theory but I'm not sure if this is the right place either. I think we need a thread for our favorite librarian Madame Irma Pince.

I sure would like to know more about her. If the "Advanced Potion-Making" book belongs to a Eileen Prince who attended school 50 years ago, wouldn't that place her at Hogwarts around the time Tom Riddle was there? Perhaps a head girl /prefect along side of Tom.

Wouldn't it be just like DD to give her a place to hide, a new name - Irma Pince, even a death certificate, and a safe place to raise one's little boy Severus from any dark side influence or abusive relationships she was trying to get away from?

I can just picture a little Severus playing in the halls with Mrs. Norris and being Filch's little sidekick.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 10, 2005 12:38 pm (#396 of 530)

SPEW- but the only mention Hermione could find of her was related to Gobstones. If she was head girl/prefect, she would have been easy to find.

Snape seems pretty messed up emotionally. If he had grown up at Hogwarts seems like he would have turned out better...just a thought...

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2005 5:37 pm (#397 of 530)

While I think it's an almost outlandish theory, the Madam Pince = Eileen Prince does seem to work and fit the little we know about both of them. But this idea came up out of discussing the pressures LV sometimes put on DE's and their personal relationships, and then wondering if Snape could have been pressured in some way to turn on a parent. The idea of a DD "wizard protection program" stemmed in part from DD's comments to Draco about hiding his mother and letting LV think she was dead. Anyway, with that thought process in mind, Eileen Prince could have "become" Irma Pince at the time Snape quit being a DE.

Also, remember Snape is described as coming to Hogwarts knowing more Dark Arts than most older students. So other students saw him as coming to Hogwarts at the same time as other students in his class.

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 11, 2005 4:15 am (#398 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
I have started a thread called Eileen Prince if anyone is interested in continuing MPISM there. It is currently in the new threads area.

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 18, 2005 8:03 am (#399 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
I posted on Why DD trusts Snape but was roundly ignored in the intense discussion of Madam Pince. So I'm reposting my thoughts here and adding a bit to them. – Gina - Severus Snape post#2233

Sorry Gina!

- - - - - - - - - -
darien - Aug 25, 2005 3:33 am (#400 of 530)

Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
I know this suggestion will not seem right to many( and if it has already been posted, I'm sorry) but I think that Snape was in love with Lily which would add to him hating James as the one she chose and hating Harry as the Fruit of their union. Also Snape's worst memory could be his worst because he insulted Lily and she got angry with him not because what James did there. Dumbledore knew this and that is why he believed that Snape regretted his actions and therefore trusted him.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 401 to 450)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:34 am

irish flutterby - Aug 25, 2005 8:21 am (#401 of 530)
Thanks for your opinion. Those are my views as well, and they have been added already, but it's nice to know someone else agrees with you!

- - - - - - - - - -
greta - Aug 27, 2005 10:18 am (#402 of 530)

deed done!
Could it be possible that Snapes redemption at the time he joined DD before LV's fall was genuine,and DD was right to trust him, but after 14 long years leading the life of the Potions Master at Hogwarts when LV returned Snape also returned to his death eater ways.

I think this is especially likely if the main reason Snape joined DD was because he learned LV was going after Lily and James (as DD told Harry in HBP and also the reason he sought to join DD and the reason DD trusted him don't have to be one in the same). Snape turned away from LV because he was personally affected by his regime i.e the potential murder of Lily and James (I say potential as they had not yet been murdered when Sanpe turned to DD),for whatever reason this gravely disturbed Snape whether it be due to his feelings for Lily or his desire to honour the life debt he owed James. So for example if Snape discovered that LV was going after the Longbottoms he would still be a death eater as they were not people he knew and he had lost nothing. To me this is very selfish and does not reflect and true and total change of character. Snape has not rejected LV's beliefs or agenda but has suffered a loss and wants revenge, how long could he sustain that if deep down he still held his death eater beliefs?

Ofcourse I am sure there is more to why DD trusted Snape other than his remorse at leading LV to the Potters, but whatever the reason Snape was trusted it may have been genuine at the time but may have faded over the course of years.

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Aug 27, 2005 4:21 pm (#403 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Snape is not the follower type it seems to me. He doesn't seem to 'cozy-up' to any of his fellow teachers or to those death eaters he associates with. He certainly had plenty of distain for Wormtail and there was no love lost between him and Belatrix Lestrange. I think in some ways Snape is righeous in his knowledge (and loves to show it) but he also looks to boost his self esteem by ridiculing/exposing others. It makes me wonder what type of follower of Voldemorts he was in the first place.

One thing I DO find interesting is that Dumbledore had enough reserve and deep misgivings NOT to give Tom Riddle a job at Hogwarts, but for whatever reason he did trust Snape ...to the point that in the case of a life-threatening injury he would request the assistance of Snape over Madame Pomfrey. He trusted Snape to properly make the Wolfsbane potion for Lupin... but in the end Snape could not resist revealing Lupins disability. That was Snapes way of 'getting revenge'. He did as he was told (by Dumbledore, a loyalty) but he let his personal emotions get in the way of Lupin's success at Hogwarts. As I've said before. Snape operates on a very personal level.

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Aug 27, 2005 5:17 pm (#404 of 530)

He trusted Snape to properly make the Wolfsbane potion for Lupin... but in the end Snape could not resist revealing Lupins disability.

Lupin had to leave somehow... Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had jinxed the job...

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Aug 27, 2005 6:30 pm (#405 of 530)

Lupin may have had to leave, but it was Snape's decision to be the reason.

I want to think he's on the right side, but I'm just re-read Spinner's End and it tends to taint him.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 27, 2005 7:30 pm (#406 of 530)

Lupin was a prefect who stood by while his friends bullied Snape. He admits it. Snape made the potion, but got his revenge. Poetic justice? Lupin didn't bully, but didn't stop it either.

- - - - - - - - - -
Dame Peverell - Aug 27, 2005 9:26 pm (#407 of 530)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...
Not to become embroiled in this but Snape, the arch-typical Slytherin, has probably, since LV's return, changed sides more often than he's changed his underwear.

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Aug 27, 2005 10:14 pm (#408 of 530)

At least once, then...

Oops... sorry...

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Aug 27, 2005 10:45 pm (#409 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Dame Peverell, ....would that be Snivelly's greying underware? LOL All joking aside, I think Snape is on... Snapes side. I think he is equally cynical about both sides. IF he had a special loyalty to Dumbledore is what remains to be seen. I cannot think of why...except that Snape does love 'poetic justice' or revenge. Perhaps he wants revenge against Voldemort. That would fit in with much of the prevailing thoughts about what might be Snapes motivation.

- - - - - - - - - -
darien - Aug 28, 2005 4:11 am (#410 of 530)

Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
I agree with Dame Peverell and RoseMorninStar. Snape as a Slytherin when given the chance will save his own neck rather than be loyal to someone as Phineas Nigellus told Harry in OotP.

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Aug 28, 2005 7:54 am (#411 of 530)

Snape will save his own neck and switches sides a lot? Hmm.

Well, DD knows more or less all that we know about Snape and a lot more and apparently doesn't think either of the above. Besides basic personality, I don't see the actual evidence that shows us that these things are really what Snape does. What is the evidence that DD is disregarding, but that he ought to be paying attention to?

However one approaches DD's death, it certainly doesn't save Snape's neck, does it? And being a spy is one of the most dangerous things one can do.

There's such a huge difference between being mean and nasty, and being on LV's side. Filch is mean and nasty, and apparently isn't on DD's side. Umbridge is far more cruel than Snape and apparently isn't on DD's side. Sirius and James were bullies at Hogwarts, but are generally seen as hero types. Regulas Black was "born and bred" in a very Dark Magic family, was a Slytherin, became a DE, backed out and was killed -- now he's the favorite choice for possible R.A.B.

Snape clearly was a DE for a couple of years, but DD had certain evidence that made him believe Snape had not only switched sides, but was loyal enough to become a spy and a teacher at Hogwarts. DD is well aware of Snape's personality and weaknesses. Regardless, he has given Snape numerous assignments that required great trust and Snape has evidently followed through on most, except those that required him to get past his dislike of Harry and teach him. Snape sent the Order to thwart LV's plans at the MoM. Snape saved DD's life. In every book he protects Harry, follows DD's orders (except really teaching occlumency well), and has helped the Order. So what's the evidence that he's switching sides or out to save his own neck?

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 28, 2005 8:29 am (#412 of 530)

wynnleaf- well said

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Aug 28, 2005 11:33 am (#413 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Wynnleaf, forgive me if my post was not clear. I DO NOT think Snape would switch sides at the drop of a cauldron. The point I was trying to make is that whatever Snape is up to-he is doing for personal reasons and not for love of the 'dark' or 'light' side of the conflict. Somehow, I do not think Snape is on Voldemort's side. I don't know why..can't explain it, I just don't.

If Snape has/had a special devotion to Dumbledore (other than protecting his precarious double spy status)the reasons for that remain to be seen. One thing we do know is that Snape basically hated Harry before they ever met (so he has a grudge against Harry for something Harry had no control over) but we also know that Snape has saved/protected Harry's life several times.

How strong are the bonds of life debts? Did Dumbledore know that Snape had several life debts to others... perhaps Dumbledore included that would prevent Snape from harming one of the Order of the Phoenix members or students at Hogwarts? Would that warrant such faith in someone?

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 28, 2005 11:49 am (#414 of 530)

I actually think Snape disliked Harry from the moment he saw him, looks just like James, but did give him a small, (but ridiculous) chance. That absurd "pop quiz" he gave Harry at the beginning of the first Potions class, asking him questions that seem more appropriate for year six, I now take as a test (albeit unfair) to see if Harry is more like James or Lily. Funny thing is, while Harry may look like James, it is clear he has Lily's sense of fairness. Snape fails to see this and determines from three questions that Harry is just like James.

- - - - - - - - - -
Dame Peverell - Aug 28, 2005 12:33 pm (#415 of 530)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...
The arch-typical Slytherin puts self preservation first. Maybe Snape has convinced DD he serves a higher calling but not me.

Additionally, he has been mean to more than the James gang and Harry. What did Neville ever do to him to deserve such rancor? He insults Hermione and apparently anyone not in his House with impunity. He even cheats at Quidditch!

DD's attitude toward this is somewhat magnanimous in that he figures getting along with a rough teacher is just one of life's little lessons, and rightly so. However, Snape isn't just one of life's rotten teachers and the whole world may be at stake.

I think DD and his blind eye underestimated the level of Snape's vehemence and downright nastiness. If Snape was conflicted about whose lead to follow he just might, by reflex, take one step in the wrong direction. Having done that, his primary concern would become "Save Snape"

I would like to think of Professor Snape as misunderstood and truly loyal to DD. I really hope that he is. And that they all live happily ever after.

(...silly and foolish all day long, boom-boom, ain't it great to be cra-zy!)

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Aug 28, 2005 6:07 pm (#416 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
I just thought of something I can't believe I hadn't thought of before. Dumbledore himself said that he believed the job of DADA teacher is jinxed. No one has held the job longer than a year since Tom Riddle was turned down for the position. Dumbledore hadn't seen fit to give Snape the job for many years (for fear of a dark side relapse?)Or did Dumbledore not give Snape the job because he wanted him around for longer than a year? But he DID give Snape the DADA job this year... knowing that most likely Snape would only hold the position for a year. Did Dumbledore chose to make Snape the DADA teacher because he knew about the Unbreakable Vow? Did they both know that this would most likely be the 'end' of Dumbledore (and Snape) at Hogwarts? Did they realize it was the end of Snapes usefullness as a double spy? Or did they plan this whole senario knowing how this year would most likely end? Or, did they plan this 'end'?

As far as the rancor Snape has for Neville, I have often wondered about that myself. It is interesting to note however, Snape does not seem to reserve his hatred for students of non-pure blood families as one might expect from the head of Slytherin house. And, in this last year anyway, Snape does make mention of how much he has had Crabbe/Goyle in detention (and also tried to make Draco serve detention, without success). Perhaps he is just as tough on his own...he just doesn't let the other houses know it.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 28, 2005 7:11 pm (#417 of 530)

JK did say that DD did not give Snape the position initially because he feared a relapse. She said the conversation went something like, let's try potions for a while (not exact quote). But he definitely knew about the curse. So did he finally trust Snape enough that relapse was no longer an issue? Perhaps because while he is rotten to Harry, he still protects him? Did the curse mean Snape would leave, only be DADA for one year, then back to potions?

If the vow was real (about killing DD), and there was no loophole, DD did not know about it at the Dursley's. He left saying, Until we meet again...

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Aug 29, 2005 8:53 am (#418 of 530)

He left saying, Until we meet again...

Or perhaps he knew that the Dursleys would die too...

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Aug 29, 2005 9:16 am (#419 of 530)

Perhaps, but would DD and the Dursley's end up in the same "place". DD would be on his next great adventure. What would the Dursleys' afterlife be like...?

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Aug 29, 2005 9:25 am (#420 of 530)

Very warm, I hope!

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Aug 29, 2005 4:16 pm (#421 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Haymoni!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Well, the 'until we meet again' could have been a clue, or it could have just been an automatic, polite-type courtesy comment. Or, just because Dumbledore (& Snape) may have planned for a certain outcome should it arise (Dumbledore's death-or his appearing to have died), they were wise enough to know it might not play out that way.

I find it very interesting that after all of these years of keeping Snape out of the DADA job he finally gets a shot at it and these dramatic events just happen to come about. Dumbledore stated that he figures the job is jinxed so he either had something planned or he was willing to lose Snape as a teacher at Hogwarts. Dumbledore seems to have had so much confidence in Snape (he was the only one he wanted Harry to awaken when he needed Snape's help)- then why would he have put him in a jinxed position?

That seems a bit of a tip off, don't you think?

- - - - - - - - - -
greta - Aug 30, 2005 2:32 am (#422 of 530)

deed done!
It certainly is a tip off, but a tip off to what? DD tells Harry that the DADA job is jinxed, so will Harry start to wonder why DD gave his trusted Snape this position?

Also if DD kept Snape away from DADA for fear of a relapse , would immersing himself with LV and the DE's not pose a similar temptation for Snape? Maybe Snape had converted to DD side but once he was back in with the old crowd he fell back in to his old ways?

T Vrana - I am not sure how the "ridiculous Pop Quiz" Snape gave Harry in the first lesson could help, in Snapes twisted eyes, determine whether Harry was more like James or lily. Yes we hear that Lily was excellent at Potions but I don't think James was the class dunce as Lupin describes him in both POA and OOTP as "the best in school at whatever they did" or something like that, so if Harry performed poorly it would prove he was unlike either if his parents.

Snape must have known that Harry had been unaware of his wizarding past until two weeks previously. I believe Snapes intention was to humiliate Harry and shoot down the celebrity status Snape believed Harry held. Cruel and nasty and an opportunity to embarrass the mini James Potter.

- - - - - - - - - -
Sparrowhawk - Aug 30, 2005 5:11 am (#423 of 530)

Greta, you may be right but there is also a possibility that Lily, although Muggle-born and therefore not introduced to magic before 11, just like Harry, started to learn very fast as soon as she received her letter from Hogwarts, somewhat Hermione-like... or even Tom Riddle-like (I'm quite sure that, after DD's visit, he went to Diagon alley immediately, and spent the rest of his vacation learning as much as he could, before the first term even started.)

So it is far from impossible that Lily knew far more magic than Harry when she first arrived at Hogwarts, isn't it? And if Snape remembered that, his test, as unfair and biased as it was, could indeed have been meant as a sort of comparison with Lily.

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Aug 30, 2005 5:59 am (#424 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Hermione knew all the answers to Snape's questions, I guess Lily could have done the same and Snape tested Harry to see if he was like his mother.

- - - - - - - - - -
greta - Aug 30, 2005 8:31 am (#425 of 530)

deed done!
Yes, but neither Lily or Hermione discovered they were a witch and simultaneously discovered that their parents had been murdered,that they are famous and had been lied to all their lives as Harry was. Also the Hogwarts letters had been arriving at Privet Drive for some time before Harry was able to access one, therefore I assume that Lily and Hermione both had more time to become familiarised with theit spell books before they arrived at Hogwarts. I am sure Snape knew about Harry's circumstances and still think his actions cruel.

However I have also reassessed what t vrana originally said and I understand it better now, I think Snape wanted to bully and humilate Harry but had a slight conscience that told him this was lily's son, therefore he set an impossible test(as no one else other than Hermione seemed to know the answer)just so he could bully Harry with a clear conscience , that is it proved in Snapes twisted mind that he was nothing like his mother.

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Aug 31, 2005 12:03 am (#426 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Snape wanted to bully Harry, but he also wanted to feel superior. Sirius told Harry; "Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school...Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters."

Can you imagine what kind of person Snape was/what kind of family he grew up in if he knew that type of stuff before entering Hogwarts? I am sure he wanted to feel superior to the 'famous' Harry Potter.

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Aug 31, 2005 10:30 am (#427 of 530)

Something has been bothering me for a while...

If Snape knew all that Dark Magic before he ever set foot in Hogwarts, where did he learn it?

The most obvious (ahem) answer would be his mother...

- - - - - - - - - -
Herm oh ninny - Aug 31, 2005 12:14 pm (#428 of 530)

"Accio treats!"
or he could have learned them from books. Since his mom was a witch, he could practice spells at home in secret and the Ministry wouldn't know it was him.

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Aug 31, 2005 12:23 pm (#429 of 530)

But where would he have gotten the books?

I can't see a ten-year-old getting his hands on a magic book without his mother's permission or knowledge...

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Aug 31, 2005 12:37 pm (#430 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Paulus Maximus, I agree with you, his mother must have been somewhat knowledgeable about the Dark Arts. Someone either coached him before he arrived at Hogwarts or he was surrounded by the practice of it. I wonder, what ever became of Snape's mother?

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 31, 2005 12:42 pm (#431 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
*cough*MPISM*cough*

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Aug 31, 2005 3:54 pm (#432 of 530)

Now, Abracapocus. We must not force our (obviously) correct theories on other (not as insightful) readers Just because we believe (know) them to be another (the most probable) solution. Wink just kidding guys

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Aug 31, 2005 5:44 pm (#433 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Abracapocus, I have read, and at one time seriously considered the fact that Madame Pince was Snapes mother, but somehow, it just doesn't seem to fit. If Snape was so well schooled in the Dark Arts from childhood, I could see Snape being given a second chance, but having his mother at Hogwarts too? Besides, Hogwarts is hardly what I would call 'hidden away' you would think someone would recognize who she was. As far as Filch being involved with Snapes mother in some way.. he may be, but then I doubt Madame Pince is related to Snape. In GoF when Snape and Filch meet in the hallway...before they suspect anyone else may be in the hallway and before MoodyCrouch comes along, they do not talk to one another like any type of relation. If they were being hidden at Hogwarts, you might think then, that they would also be a part of the Order of the Phoenix.

- - - - - - - - - -
Abracapocus - Aug 31, 2005 6:34 pm (#434 of 530)

My patronus is a boggart
The initial idea that sparked MPISM was that I couldn't find a good enough reason in my mind for why Dumbledore trusted Snape.

Yes, Snape could have had some sort of friendship or infatuation for Lily, but would Dumbledore buy that as a reason for his defection? Snape gave what he heard of the prophecy to Voldemort and then out of the blue, Snape, who hated James, now wanted to protect his wife? Another man's wife? Like you with MPISM, I toyed with believing it, but in the end it didn't work for me. (Let me also tell you that I did not believe that Dumbledore was going to die or that Ron was going to end up with Hermione either because they were too obvious. )

I really couldn't think of one thing that Snape (a Death Eater, absorbed in the dark arts, a gifted liar) could have told Dumbledore that he (I) would believe. Snapes actions afterward may have reinforced Dumbledore's belief, but I wanted to know what initiated his changing sides.

In most cases however, good, bad or middle-of-the-road, a person loves their mother. What if Voldemort threated Eileen in some way and Snape went to Dumbledore for help? Dumbledore agreed to help Snape by hiding and protecting Eileen and in return Snape gave him his loyalty. At that point, Eileen was merely a person from a newspaper clipping that Hermione found and Dumbledore could have hidden her in a cave, guarded by Picts. Again, I was just trying to think of a story that Dumbledore would have readily accepted from Snape.

Then Nymphadora Lupin posed the question, who could she be? And Irm a Prince was born.

I am not really trying to sell anyone on the MPISM idea, but we have certainly had a good time with it. Anyone who is interested will have to go to the Eileen Prince thread for the rest of the story. Otherwise, I think I will take that cough drop now.

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Aug 31, 2005 8:17 pm (#435 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Abracapocus, All of the guessing is fun, isn't it? At least it will keep us a little busy while we are waiting for the final chapter in the saga.

Why Dumbledore trusted Snape is an excellent question. WHY? WHY? WHY????!!!! I do 'get' the I m a Prince thing..if there is not a connection there..wow, what a coincidence!

One thing I find interesting about Snape (and Voldemort for that matter) is that, though they are both from Slytherin house, Voldemort being a descendent of Slytherin himself, they are both Half-bloods. Snape at least, does not seem to flaunt his hatred of muggles or mudbloods...he is an equal opportunity hater. ;D From what little we know of Snapes father, he was a nasty muggle. Snape would almost have had to been exposed to the 'dark side' by his mother. Tom Riddle's father was a muggle, but we really don't know much about him at all. I think he reacted the way many people would have under the circumstances.

Personally, I cannot believe that some of Voldemort's followers...the 'pure-blood' crowd...would not be incensed to learn that their 'Lord' is a half-blood. I do not like Snape, but he has to be a very strong character (brave) to play the roll of a double spy with the likes of Voldemort.

In an adult novel I could imagine where Snape would have been 'promised' Lily's safety in exchange for information. Snape might have thought that James & Harry would be killed leaving Lily 'free' for himself. Then, when Voldemort killed Lily he was enraged and in deep want of revenge. But that seems a bit too tawdry for a children's book.

Why was Snape listening at the door during Trelawney's job interview? Why would he have thought that something of interest to Voldemort would take place at a simple job interview for a teacher at Hogwarts? Questions, questions, questions!!! I CAN'T WAIT!!!!!!!!!

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Sep 1, 2005 6:58 am (#436 of 530)

I am inclined to believe what Dumbledore said in the Pensieve in book 4, that Snape had done something before Lord Voldemort's demise to make Dumbledore trust him. Not remorse about Lily's death, because she hadn't died yet...

More likely it was after he told Voldemort about the prophecy, and Voldemort decided to go after James Potter (to whom Snape owed a life debt...) I think Snape thought he could pay off his life debt to James by warning the Order that Lord Voldemort was after him, so he did.

It would also explain why Snape hated Sirius so much... If not for him, the debt would be paid...

- - - - - - - - - -
Dame Peverell - Sep 1, 2005 6:42 pm (#437 of 530)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...
...I think Snape thought he could pay off his life debt to James by warning the Order that Lord Voldemort was after him...

That sounds very insightful. Does it fit into the time line?

James and Lily were killed "barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed"(PoA ch 10)

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Sep 1, 2005 6:51 pm (#438 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
The timeline for Severus Snape says that he applied for a teaching job at Hogwarts in 1979 (he had only graduated from Hogwarts in June of 1978) It does not say if he was hired- am I correct in assuming he was not hired this first time?. In 1981 (before October...I would imagine sometime before the start of school) the timeline says: Approaches Dumbledore and offers to be secret agent for The Order of the Phoenix. Snape applies (again?) for the post of Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts; Dumbledore hires him as Potions Master instead (OP17).

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Sep 1, 2005 7:02 pm (#439 of 530)

Edited Sep 1, 2005 7:35 pm
DD testifies that Snape returned to the good side before LV's downfall, therefore, before Lily and James were killed. We also know that DD had someone close to LV warning him that someone close to the Potters, was passing info on their location to LV. At that time it was thought to be Black, and DD offered to be their secret keeper. James said no.

I think it was Snape who told DD that LV was after them, and Black might be the spy, because Snape is beside himself in the Shrieking Shack in POA and says it would have served Harry right to be killed by Black, too arrogant, like his father, to believe he might be wrong about Black. This is one of the times when Snape really loses it and it seems he has a personal interest in this.

I agree Snape tried to pay back his life debt to James, and save Lily because she was the one person who didn't stand around and laugh while he was bullied. In the end, his info led to both their deaths, and his life debt must be even larger. This explains why he was ready to send Black to the dementors for a kiss. He still believed Black was the culprit and would catching and killing the traitor pay some of the debt?

As it stands, now he owes Harry...and DD knows it.

- - - - - - - - - -
Weeny Owl - Sep 1, 2005 8:38 pm (#440 of 530)

The Life Debt thing has been debated over and over, and it's yet to be determined that Snape owes Harry anything because of Life Debt to James. Snape might think that if he saves Harry's life things will be even, but I would like JKR to go into more detail about Life Debts in general. Are they transferable? Did Snape pay his debt when he saved Harry in first year? Do Life Debts kick in automatically or does the person owing the debt have a choice as to paying it back or not?

Sometime before Harry and Neville were born, Trelawney made the prophecy. There's really no way of knowing how long a time period there was between the prophecy and those two births. It could be a week, a month, six months, a year... canon doesn't tell us.

What we do know for sure is that Harry was one year and three months old when Voldemort killed his parents and tried to kill him. If Harry was born in the summer of 1980, then it was the fall of 1981 when that happened.

Sometime between when Snape heard the prophecy and the Potters were attacked, he switched sides and started working for the good guys.

The problems we encounter with our theories, especially ones involving Dumbledore trusting Snape, have to do with when things happened. When did Snape go to Dumbledore and present evidence that he'd truly changed sides? Was it only after Voldemort decided on the Potters? If so, then how long after? When did Dumbledore hire Snape? Was it sometime during the summer, the first of September, or the week before the Potters were attacked? There are just too many questions we need answers to.

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Sep 1, 2005 8:52 pm (#441 of 530)

I'd tend to agree with the last several posts, with one exception.

All of Snape's big emotional scene in the Shrieking Shack is indicative of such hatred! I just don't see that kind of hatred for Sirius as something rooted in either old school grudges, or the thwarting of Snape's attempt to pay off a life debt. It's just far too much hate. I've thought for a long time that when Snape thought Sirius was the betrayer of James and Lily, his hatred for Sirius had to be rooted in more than just "wow, this is a really bad guy who betrayed to their deaths two people I know (and care little to nothing about)" No, that just doesn't fit. Nor does it fit that Snape has this huge amount of hate for Sirius just because he 1. betrayed 2 people Snape knows, but cares little about and 2. he thwarted Snape's payment of a life debt.

I'm not necessarily backing the Snape-in-love-with-Lily theory, but I do feel like his hate of Sirius (while he thought Black was the secret keeper) was personal and very deep, with a heavy dose of desire for vengence. Why would Snape hate Sirius that much unless something he thought Sirius had done had injured Snape both personally and very deeply? Thwarting a life debt payment may be a personal injury, but it just doesn't seem emotionally deep enough.

I know we could speculate that life debts in the WW are so important, and produce such a burden, that it would affect Snape this way. But I don't think that's the kind of motivation JKR would use. Because we the readers could never really relate to it. Sure, we can theoretically understand it, but we can't really relate to a huge amount of anger, guilt, etc. over a "life debt" piece of magic. I think JKR would make her key motivator for Snape something that readers could relate to -- you don't have to be magical to know imagine how it would feel -- that kind of thing.

So I lean toward some sort of relationship between Snape and Lily. That could easily be a friendship. I've known some guy/girl friendships that were very, very deep without being romantic.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Sep 1, 2005 9:47 pm (#442 of 530)

Wynnleaf- Hmmmm. While we tend to agree I have to disagree here. The hatred for Sirius seems to me to be part of a trap Snape feels he is in, unjustly! It is not just that he owes a life debt (and JK has told us this is powerful, I think she trusts we can make leaps in the magical world she has created), but he owes it to a guy he hates, because of Sirius (nearly killing him), and then Sirius is the reason he didn't repay it! (In his mind at the time).

I do agree, though, that Lily has a very important role to play, and I tend to also think it is not necessarily romantic, but out of respect for her talent, and her courage at standing up to the crowd and the Marauders.

- - - - - - - - - -
Dame Peverell - Sep 2, 2005 3:15 am (#443 of 530)

Who wants JKR to hire some help and get on with it...
Didn't Snape hate Sirius so much because it was he who got him to follow Lupin when Lupin was about to revert to a werewolf? That's when James saved his life.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Sep 2, 2005 5:23 am (#444 of 530)

Exactly, that is what I meant by saying Sirius nearly killed Snape.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Sep 3, 2005 6:29 am (#445 of 530)

irony or coincidence, or whatever the right word is. Snape is following the Marauders around. Sirius tries to lead him to Lupin who would harm/mame/kill Snape. Snape's following Harry and Lupin around, and Lupin leads him to Sisius who (Snape thinks) might harm/mame/kill everyone. just intersting. Snape finds himself in a very similar situation.

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Sep 3, 2005 3:45 pm (#446 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
I think Snape is, and always was, a sneaky, nosy type (how like Aunt Petunia!). Being nosy does not make a person 'good' or 'bad' in of of that one characteristic, but it does make for a natural spy.

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Sep 3, 2005 4:52 pm (#447 of 530)

I think Snape is, and always was, a sneaky, nosy type (how like Aunt Petunia!). Being nosy does not make a person 'good' or 'bad' in of of that one characteristic, but it does make for a natural spy.

I agree.

Shame JKR has shot down any theory that the Snapes and Evanses might be related...

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Sep 6, 2005 6:03 pm (#448 of 530)

Indeed. It could lead to so many great theories!

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Sep 11, 2005 8:25 am (#449 of 530)

“"I told you to empty yourself of emotion!" "Yeah? Well, I'm finding that hard at the moment," Harry snarled. "Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily -- weak people, in other words -- they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!" (OP 24)”

I was reading this again as well as a quote by DD saying in OOTP that he is sufficiently skilled at occlumency to teach it if he so wishes.

Take a look at Snape’s comment. I’ve always thought he was speaking from his own experience of emotion, which is why he so scorns displays of emotion now. But for a long time, I just took it to mean Snape had been injured through showing emotion and therefore was adamant about getting rid of it. But as I look closer, remembering that Snape was only about 20 or so when he left the DE’s, I think all of this is from his experience.

So what if that were true?

Hogwarts doesn’t teach occlumency. Harry needed special lessons. Draco’s apparently learning it from Bellatrix. Who taught Snape? When and why? If I start with the premise that the above quote is Snape speaking from experience then:

1. At some point, either before he left Hogwarts or immediately afterward, LV was able to use Snape’s own tendency to be provoked easily, along with a lot of emotion and sad memories that Snape was wallowing in, in order to penetrate his mind with ease.

2. If that’s the case, Snape was not accomplished at occlumency as a teenager (would we really expect this, anyway?). He was not the master at occlumency that he eventually becomes. Instead LV could penetrate his mind with ease because Snape’s wallowing in emotion and quick temper allowed it.

3. Did LV teach Snape occlumency to help in spying against DD? LV doesn’t strike me as interested in teaching his DE’s self-improvement or protective techniques, especially techniques that might make it harder for him to control them.

4. If LV didn’t teach Snape occlumency, nor did he learn it at Hogwarts, and if Snape was not sufficiently skilled in his late teens to resist LV, then he wouldn’t have been skilled enough to resist DD’s leglimency, either.

5. I’m theorizing that DD taught Snape occlumency. Since Snape learned from a master, and had a real talent for it, he became a master himself.

In summary of a sequence of events, either in his last years at Hogwarts or just leaving Hogwarts, Snape is wallowing in a lot of emotion with a very easily provoked temper. He’s always been “into” the Dark Arts. At whatever time he becomes a DE, LV is able to penetrate his mind with ease. LV uses Snape’s quick temper and high emotions against him. Snape may have learned the rudiments of occlumency, but not enough to resist LV.

Snape is sent to spy on DD. At some point, for whatever reason, Snape wants to leave LV and the DE’s and goes to DD. At that time, he was not strong in occlumency and DD was able to easily see Snape’s true feelings, etc. about the good side vs. LV’s side. DD decides to use Snape as a spy. DD teaches Snape occlumency and Snape ultimately becomes a master at it, able to not simply resist LV’s leglimency, but to actually trick LV into believing that Snape has certain thoughts or feelings.

Okay, there’s my theory. I know it’s built on a lot of conjecture, but I like it. Fire away.

Oh, and I’m not saying there aren’t other specific reasons, actions, etc. for why DD trusts Snape so much. But I’m speculating that he didn’t originally have a way to fool DD with occlumency.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Sep 11, 2005 9:14 am (#450 of 530)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Good ideas wynnleaf - I like your theory. Could it be possible that Snape didn't actually tell Voldemort about the prophesy, but Voldemort read it in his mind? Perhaps after that he realized the importance of being able to close his mind and took lessons from Dumbledore to learn how to do so.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 451 to 500)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:35 am

T Vrana - Sep 11, 2005 9:29 am (#451 of 530)
Wynnleaf- I really like this theory!

The only thing I would say is Snape probably doesn't have to work too hard to conjure the feelings LV values. Snape's hatred and anger,(even some for DD for being headmaster when he was bullied, and not doing more or not at least reining in the Marauders) I think are still very much there, and he can use those to "fool" LV. It is what makes Snape such a good liar and spy against LV, Bella, Narcissa, etc., he still has those emotions to pull from.

- - - - - - - - - -
Detail Seeker - Sep 11, 2005 10:11 am (#452 of 530)

Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Wynleaf, if we try your good ideas about Snape´s learning of Occlumency onto the "official" situation (Snape haing been sent to Hogwarts as spy for LV) literally, it would have made sense even for LV to teach Snape Occlumency and Legilimency, because this would have increased Snape´s chances of surviving. It is known, that LV does not tend to underestimate Dumbledore as much as he understimates other opponents. So, it would be quite normal even for him, who does not care much for his followers, to teach Snape enough to allow him to remain useful.

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Sep 11, 2005 11:05 am (#453 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Wynnleaf, I like your ideas but in regards to this comment: 3. Did LV teach Snape occlumency to help in spying against DD? LV doesn’t strike me as interested in teaching his DE’s self-improvement or protective techniques, especially techniques that might make it harder for him to control them.

Bellatrix, in OotP said that she was Voldemort's most loyal servant and that he taught her the Dark Arts. I would think that, if he sent Snape to Dumbledore as a spy, he could have taught Snape Occulmency to 'protect' himself and his sources against Dumbledore.

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Sep 11, 2005 12:40 pm (#454 of 530)

I agree that it's possible that Snape learned occlumency from LV. However, I think it's less probable than his learning it from DD, for the reasons I stated. It's one thing for LV to teach Bellatrix some Dark Arts spells, curses, etc. It's another thing to teach someone occlumency when that is the defense against one of LV's most important tools for keeping his DE's in line -- that is leglimency. Further, he'd most likely see right away that Snape was quite adept at it. I doubt if an 18 or 19 year old beginning student of occlumency could hide his innate ability and quick learning of a skill from a master. If LV (a master at leglimency) was teaching Snape occlumency, he'd have seen very quickly that Snape had a strong ability in that area. I'd think that would make him wary of teaching Snape any more occlumency.

On the other hand, if DD was Snape's teacher in occlumency, he would be pleased to see a highly talented student learning quickly, because DD isn't trying to control the Order using leglimency. If he was the teacher seeing Snape's innate ability, I'd think he'd push it as far as it would go and teach Snape to the fullest extent.

I guess what I'm getting at is that Snape is a master now at occlumency. That likely meant that he not only had a lot of innate talent, but a teacher willing to challenge his talent to a high degree. I don't think LV would have done that because it would put LV's prime tool for controlling DE's at risk to do so.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Sep 11, 2005 1:46 pm (#455 of 530)

I agree. It does seem that LV uses his skill at legilmency to control everyone he can, whether DE or not. I was thinking, maybe LV did send Snape as a spy and DD used legilmency to find out the truth. When confronted, it led to Snape's change of heart and sides.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Sep 11, 2005 6:17 pm (#456 of 530)

This latest idea made me think, who is easier to fool, someone who values hate or love?

I think Snape can easily fool LV because he has so much pent up anger to use.

I think he would find it hard to fake love and regret, because I think these may be more foreign to him.

That is, he has many negative feeling to pull from, and can therefore be believable as a negative, nasty, angry guy. But he has little experience with the positive, or so it seems. If his feelings of regret are not genuine, I think he would be hard pressed to fake them well, it is just not in his make up, so he would have a tough time fooling someone like DD.

Hope that makes sense...

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Sep 27, 2005 6:14 pm (#457 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
What could Dumbledore possibly know about Snape that would make him so trusting? I know this is reaching a bit but could Snape be angry that he cannot be the one to avenge Lily's death? Does he feel Harry is 'unworthy' of the task? Does it have nothing to do with Lily...and maybe it's something more personal-like something to do with Snapes mother? Maybe he feels stymied because he knows it has to be Harry who has to defeat Voldemort and he would like the task himself? What could possibly be driving him? I don't think Snape could have been Voldemort's devoted DE all of these years just to try to find out the prophecy. Besides, in the book I think Voldemort just became very intrigued by the prophecy after GoF and what happened with their wands.

Do you think that Snape would feel the same way about Harry if he were in Slytherin House? Why does Snape hate Harry? Is it really because he looks like James & what James did to him? Is it something else? Why would Dumbledore still place so much trust in Snape all the while knowing how he felt about James/Sirius/Lupin/Wormtail and now Harry? It must be something concrete. Even if Dumbledore is a more altruistic thinker, he surely is intelligent enough to have thought through his trust in Severus. I don't think he would place that trust lightly.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Sep 27, 2005 6:55 pm (#458 of 530)

"and maybe it's something more personal-like something to do with Snapes mother?"

Cough *MPISM* Cough

- - - - - - - - - -
kage - Sep 28, 2005 12:09 am (#459 of 530)

*MPISM*
or SMID - Severus' mother is dead (and this is why Severus wants Voldemort dead)

T Vrana If his feelings of regret are not genuine, I think he would be hard pressed to fake them well, it is just not in his make up, so he would have a tough time fooling someone like DD.
This is exactly what I think.

RoseMorningStar, I too think that Severus has personal reasons to fight Voldemort and that it's not easy for him to accept that Harry is the one with the power to do it. Wether his reasons are about his mother, Lilly, or both, or something else...we have only a few clues and are hard put to make sense.

How about this: After Hogwarts Severus joines Voldemort not because it's the obvious thing for a guy like him to do, but because he wants to fight Voldemort for his own reasons - revenge, glory, whatever - 'good' Severus. Hearing the prophecy and figuring out that it concerns the Potters, he sees a chance to get rid of James (and maybe get Lily for himself, maybe has some kind of deal with Pettigrew himself)) in spite of the life debt - 'bad' Severus'. He makes a weak attempt to save the Potters by telling DD about someone betraying the Potters to LV, maybe he didn't tell all he knew - weak Severus. At some point before LVs downfall (may it be months or only seconds) he realizes that he is getting Lily killed, which is not what he wants - regretting Severus. This causes him to go back to DD as an ally in fighting LV. Lily's death enhances his wish to kill Voldemort - 'good' Snape (but for bad reasons).

Can anybody follow? Would DD buy this story?

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Sep 28, 2005 8:00 am (#460 of 530)

Basic Theories on why DD trusted Severus...

1. Life Debt. DD believes the bond of the life debt owed James is what's got Severus on the right side. We know Severus owes James a life debt, but aren't sure how strong a force this is.

2. Connection with Lily. Based on Potter's deaths as greatest regret of Severus' life, but probably that couldn't mean James' death - hence Lily connection. Plus "dog in the night" circumstances -- Severus never says anything bad about Lily (except 1 pensieve scene, explained by the circumstances). Could be friendship, possibly romantic interest.

3. DD has Severus' mom hidden in wizard protection program. Based on MPISM -- Madam Pince is Snape's Mom theory. Lots of clues for this.

4. DD knows of an unbreakable vow Severus has taken. Only based on the knowledge that unbreakable vows exist. May be inconsistent with DD's "choices" theme.

5. Severus, like Regulas, simply saw that LV's side was too Dark -- beyond what he was prepared to do. Discovered he really didn't want to go in that direction. Regret over Potters deaths is more just because they were people he knew -- he never expected anyone he knew to actually die. This doesn't seem like nearly strong enough reasons for motivating Severus.

6. LV injured Severus' pride, ideas of rules, etc. even more than the Marauders did. So he turns from LV. Not sure what this is based on -- mostly some aspects of Severus' character.

7. Severus is in it all for himself -- looking for power, prestige -- and has always wanted to be the one to take down LV. Based on some aspects of Severus' character. Doesn't seem to match the many years after LV's downfall when Severus was apparently content to stay as a teacher at Hogwarts (not much power and prestige there, if that's what he wanted). This really isn't a theory on why DD would trust Severus, unless you think DD would think that regardless of the motivations, Severus was still of good use as a spy. It could explain why DD would use Severus as a spy, but not why DD would trust him so much.

8. Kage's newer idea that Severus was originally a spy for the Order, but went over to LV's side when associating too closely with the DE's and LV. Then later returned to the good side. This is built on what we've already learned about Severus' spying activities, plus the cryptic "he returned..." comment of DD's in HBP.

Kage, if the scenario you posted above were presented to DD, I think he might believe or accept that Severus had reacted along those lines, but I don't think those kinds of motivations and actions would enable DD to trust Severus. Basically Severus' helping to arrange James' death for his own purposes just doesn't work with the "I trust Severus Snape," kinds of statements DD makes. Besides, then Severus really would be a key intentional accessory to the Potter's murders, and I don't think DD would take on someone like that for the Order.

I imagine I left out some of the other theories. Those are the basic ones (minus all the variations on them) that I recall.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Sep 28, 2005 8:47 am (#461 of 530)

I think it is a combination of 1, 2, 5 and 6. I do think there is a good chance Pince is Momma Snape, but I don't think DD's trust is based on protecting her. Whatever it is, I think it is based on the feeling DD has that he can trust him, not an almost blackmailish arrangement of protecting a parent. Same for unbreakable. Trust, for me, involves knowing the person will do the right thing because of who they are, not because Mom's being protected or a vow will kill you.

I think Snape was too angry and fragile for DD to trust he could send him to LV just after Hogwarts. I think Snape thought the DEs were where he could fit in and hang with his friends, but discovered it was not what he expected, especially the emphasis on Pureblood. Am re-reading GoF and was surprised to see the halfblood LV using the term mudblood. Snape seems proud of his halfblood talent.

Also, Snape jumps when Harry mentions Lucius was at the rebirthing. At first I thought he was concerned Lucius was exposed as a DE. Now I'm starting to think good friend Lucius may have told halfblood Snape he too was fooled and not really a DE...

- - - - - - - - - -
Blots - Sep 30, 2005 2:17 pm (#462 of 530)

Snape was deeply involved in the events at Godric’s Hollow on Halloween, 1981. His goal was the death of James and Harry and the destruction of Voldemort. Snape’s plan went awry when Lily sacrificed her life to save her son. James died, but it is likely he saved Snape from discovery and death first. Voldemort survived as a disembodied entity. Harry became “The Boy Who Lived.”

Snape was overwhelmed with guilt, grief and regret. He confessed all to Dumbledore. He and Dumbledore agreed to keep the pertinent details a secret. They agreed to safeguard Harry and to hope Voldemort would never manage to return from his disembodied state in their lifetimes or in Harry’s.

Dumbledore trusts Snape: 1) Because Snape’s grief and contrition were legitimate. He confessed fully and honestly. 2) Because Snape no longer had any appetite for power--he wanted to teach and live a quiet and lonely life. He reformed. 3) Because, by virtue of their shared secret, Dumbledore had been drawn unavoidably and unhappily into being a co conspirator of Snape’s.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Sep 30, 2005 2:36 pm (#463 of 530)

Edited Sep 30, 2005 3:20 pm
Blots- His goal was the death of James and Harry and the destruction of Voldemort

Why would Snape want baby Harry dead? How did he plan for the destruction of LV by letting him kill James and Harry?

I can't believe that DD could forgive Snape for being very involved in Godric's Hollow and trying to kill James and baby Harry. What would have been Snape's source of regret after being so involved and trying to kill an infant?

Because Snape no longer had any appetite for power--he wanted to teach and live a quiet and lonely life

Snape loves the power he has right now over students and the DEs, and with DD.

EDIT- DD may have held back that Snape heard the prophesy, but he does not lie. He told the wizengamot that Snape returned before LV's fall, therefore before the Potters' deaths. Also, he tells Harry that Snape regretted his mistake of revealing the prophesy and had no idea LV would go after his family. I don't think DD could have truthfully said this if Snape planned to kill Harry and James.

- - - - - - - - - -
Paulus Maximus - Oct 1, 2005 1:35 pm (#464 of 530)

In fact, Snape may well have remembered his life debt to James and urged his master to go after the Longbottoms instead. (I'm thinking of Wormtail's half-hearted attempt to discourage him from using Harry in the rebirthing ritual; Snape might have done something similar.)

But, of course, Voldemort thought that Harry could usurp his position as the Dark Lord (and why should he not, when the only other half-bloods he knew were powerful Dark wizards?) and decided to go after Harry instead.

Or maybe not. Something that has been bothering me a bit is the fact that there are fifteen months between Harry's birth and Voldemort's attack on him. I simply don't understand why Voldemort would wait so long to attack the Chosen One.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Oct 1, 2005 5:25 pm (#465 of 530)

Did it take some time to figure out who the child was (as DD would have warned the Potters to keep things quiet), then they were in hiding. But, Oct 31, Halloween, was LV holding off a horcrux-making for a special child and a special date?

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Oct 1, 2005 10:49 pm (#466 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
I do think the 'special date' of Halloween probably had something to do with it. But too, the Potters were in hiding for quite awhile. They probably were not easy to find. They might not have been found for quite some time more had Wormtail not been such a rat. Voldemort may not have heard the prophecy right away either... did Snape go right to Voldemort & tell him all about it? In the Lexicon it says:

Timing suggests that Snape may have been the person that tipped Dumbledore off that Voldemort planned to kill the Potter's child.

Oh, MAYBE Voldemort intended this to be his 'Grand Fête' and he was still looking for/preparing his horcrux object. These things take time you know!

- - - - - - - - - -
Saracene - Oct 2, 2005 5:23 am (#467 of 530)

Regarding Snape and Occlumency: I definitely agree there's a strong possibility that it was in fact DD who had taught him Occlumency, and that LV and Death Eaters aren't aware about it. It is definitely not a talent someone like LV would encourage in his followers. If LV knew that Snape had an ability to tell lies in his presence and not be detected, I just don't think he'd be inclined to believe Snape's explanations when he went back to him at the end of GoF.

Plus, although it's not a definite indication of anything, I thought it was interesting that Snape's Occlumency skills weren't brought up in any way at all in the Spinner's End chapter. Harry logically sees Occlumency as one of the biggest reasons to doubt Snape's trustworthiness; yet it would also have been a reason for Bellatrix to doubt his loyalty to LV, as well. Yet she doesn't mention it at all. And Snape doesn't bring Occlumency up to explain how he'd been able to fool DD all these years - he instead cites DD's willingness to see good in people.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Oct 2, 2005 6:11 am (#468 of 530)

JK said DD is largely self taught, though he also had great teachers at Hogwarts. If Snape did have the unhappy childhood we saw in the pensieve, he may have learned to shut down his emotions as a child. I think it is quite possible that Snape's occlumency skills were a self taught defense mechanism.

Snape described occlumency as the ability to shut down feelings and memories. I think he's a natural.

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Oct 2, 2005 8:19 am (#469 of 530)

I agree that he's probably a "natural." On the other hand, most people with a natural ability still need an excellent teacher to get to be a real "master" at something. Since occlumency doesn't seem to be something usually taught at Hogwarts, I think DD taught Severus.

Remember Severus' comments to Harry about why you need occlumency? I can't go back and quote them all right now, but I always felt he was speaking in part from experience when he talked about how LV could delve into the mind and use emotions that were easily provoked. To me, that says that Severus wasn't all that great at occlumency when he first became a DE.

So when did he learn it? Since he wasn't a real DE all that long - 2-3 years at tops, then I tend to think he wasn't very skilled at occlumency when he first turned away from LV and went to DD. I think it would be DD that would train him in occlumency, so he could deceive LV. Although Bellatrix taught Draco, I don't think LV would teach Severus, especially if LV realized he had such a natural ability.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Oct 2, 2005 8:39 am (#470 of 530)

I agree LV wouldn't teach him. You make a compelling argument for DD teaching Snape, and you may be right. We know he was still having outbursts in his 5th year at Hogwarts (pensieve scene with James and Lily).

But could it have been that moment with Lily that spurred in him a desire to control his emotions? Could further bad experiences with LV have pushed him to further develop is skills?

I really like the ideda of DD arming him with the tools he would need to successfully spy on LV. But I also think Snape is a very talented wizard who takes pride in his abilities, especially because he is a halfblood. He hung around with a bunch of pureblood snobs, and was probably eager to prove himself. Then he joined the DEs and I think found no matter how hard he worked, he was second best to purebloods like Malfoy and Bellatrix. The "friends" he looked up to probably still looked down on him no matter how talented he became (remember Bella, "He lives here. I don't think any of our kind..."(not exact quote, emphasis added)

Interesting thought. Did Snape help cause the MoM fiasco so Lucius and Bella, purebloods, would fail. Now he, the half blood prince, is the one closest to LV...

(Wynnleaf, this touches on the developing theory I mentioned on the Snape thread...)

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Oct 2, 2005 12:46 pm (#471 of 530)

I think the DD/Severus relationship is something far deeper than anything we've been shown so far. I can think of several different options for what that relationship could be, but I feel sure that it's far beyond what Harry seems to think.

Harry always talks to DD about Snape as though DD doesn't have any further relationship with Snape than what Harry sees.

I've noticed that kids often approach teachers this way -- as though the teachers don't really have lives and interactions beyond what the kids can see, particularly with each other. It can sometimes be like this assumption that Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones have no more to say to each other about what goes on in school than what the kid observes from day to day in Math or English classes. Yet Smith and Jones might be the best of friends and spend every weekend out fishing, discussing the entire school, all the students, and all kinds of stuff that has nothing to do with school.

I've noticed in a college environment that even though students see the faculty much more as real people, they still are often unaware that the faculty and staff of a college or university form a community all their own, apart from the students, even though there's lots of interaction and another type of "community" with the students.

So it's not strange that Harry should see Snape this way, and talk to DD as though DD only sees the Snape that Harry sees. And because we readers almost always see things through Harry's eyes, we don't get to learn more.

I'm hoping that eventually JKR will explain more about what went on and show us not solely the facts of why DD trusts Severus, but also a little of what their relationship was/became in the period of time before and during the years Harry is at Hogwarts.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Oct 2, 2005 1:36 pm (#472 of 530)

I agree,but I disagre with your scholl teacher analogy. I went to a smaller college, and it was pretty well known what teachers hung aound each other on the weekends and such. I can see how a younger student would not put two teachers together that they didn't see out all of the time, however, I think DD and Snape made it a point to not be seen together unless it was vital. Any personal interaction they had, they were almost certain to have somewhere and at a time when they would not readily be seen or heard.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Oct 2, 2005 2:50 pm (#473 of 530)

irish flutterby- I agree Snape and DD would not want to be seen together to protect Snape. In fact, they probably limited their time together, even out of sight. I also think this is why he never stayed to eat with the Order at 12 Grimmauld Place. While Snape is a very accompolishes occlumens, I'm sure he tried to limit the memories he had to hide. Getting too chummy or hearing too much, would only give him more work hiding these encounters.

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Oct 2, 2005 3:14 pm (#474 of 530)

Oh yes, I agree. I doubt Severus would spend much time around anyone in the Order after LV came back. What I was more thinking was that the DD/Snape relationship is certainly more in-depth than Harry thinks. DD knows stuff about Severus that probably no one else knows. And even with the role of spy, and having to use occlumency so much, Severus seems to be more closely involved in DD's plans than perhaps other Order members -- at least as far as we see, particularly if all the tower events were a plan.

- - - - - - - - - -
irish flutterby - Oct 2, 2005 3:15 pm (#475 of 530)

I think Snape would have to kow certain aspects that others didn't know because he had to know where the plan was going. On the other hand, I think there may have been things that he wasn't privy to for his protection.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Oct 2, 2005 6:12 pm (#476 of 530)

wynnleaf- I agree that DD and Snape seem to have a much closer relationship than Harry knows. I would bet much of it goes unsaid, but is understood between them, and they keep meetings brief, to help Snape keep memories under control. Once LV is back, Snape spending time alone, as in Spinners End, would seem to make his life easier. In reality, DD does seem to depend on Snape more than any other Order member. I would love to see the memory of Snape's return and the resulting conversation!

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Oct 2, 2005 7:57 pm (#477 of 530)

I would love to see the memory of Snape's return and the resulting conversation!

That's one of the scenes I'm most looking forward to seeing. Surely we can trust JKR to give it to us!

- - - - - - - - - -
Saracene - Oct 4, 2005 2:09 am (#478 of 530)

Oh yes, the whole backstory concerning DD's trust in Snape is for me one of the series' most intriguing mysteries. DD definitely got to see the side of Snape's character no one, readers included, has seen so far; I'd love to have a peek.

- - - - - - - - - -
Blots - Oct 10, 2005 10:20 pm (#479 of 530)

TVrana regarding your post #463: You are quite correct. At first, I was a little puzzled by your critique of my scenario. I wondered why you would suppose that DD would have to forgive Snape, if he found Snape had further involvement in the murder of the Potters after he was hired at Hogwarts.

I knew Snape was hired at the beginning of the term, as you point out, although my source was HBP p. 26. Snape to Bellatrix: “You ask me where I was when the Dark Lord fell. I was where he had ordered me to be, at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry.”

For some reason I was imagining DD did not know Snape was a DE at the time he hired him. However, I have since spotted that on p. 31 Snape says, “I spun him a tale of deepest remorse when I joined the staff fresh from my Death Eater days.” If DD didn’t know Snape was a DE, Snape would have crowed that DD never suspected, not that he “spun a tale of remorse.” I had reviewed the Pensieve scene in GoF that you mentioned, a little over a month ago, but was focused only on whether Snape was working against Voldemort when hired. In that scene DD states Snape was a spy in the DE when he was hired, so obviously DD knew Snape was a DE.

I agree Snape’s further involvement in Voldemort’s attack on the Potters after DD accepted him from the Death Eaters would have been too great a violation of DD’s trust. So this does imply that what caused Snape to earn Dumbledore’s trust happened prior to Sept, 1981. I think what happened was just what DD said in HBP. He realized what LV was going to do with the information he had given him and went to DD with it. He did this due his love for Lily, his debt to James, and his revulsion of Voldemort and of what Voldemort intended to do.

Regarding your question: Why would Snape want baby Harry dead? How did he plan for the destruction of LV by letting him kill James and Harry? This is a bit involved. If you are interested, please see my post under Horcruxes, #680, 8/23/05. However, it requires an assumption about Horcruxes that I now think is incorrect: that a wizard who destroys his own Horcrux brings death upon himself. I imagined Snape created a “booby trap” out of Harry.

I supposed he wanted to be rid of James, because I find the theory that Lily was the only one Snape ever loved to be credible. I speculated Snape set Voldemort up to killing James by using the prophecy. Lily would then be widowed, and in a vulnerable emotional state. Snape imagined he would win her love. He would supplant the sadistic madman, Voldemort, and provide “real leadership” to the DE, as a “champion” for the wizarding world against the Muggles.

Rather neat, but I think it is wrong. The big “clue” that started me in this direction was the Sectumsempra chapter. It doesn’t have an obvious reason to be there, so it must prepare for something. Its connection with cutting the skin points directly to Harry’s scar. Snape was the inventor of the curse, and presumably he was the only one who knew about it.

I do think Harry is a Horcrux. However, I think Voldemort did it intentionally and for a fairly obvious reason. I’ll work on a post for the Horcrux section describing this.

- - - - - - - - - -
Saracene - Oct 11, 2005 12:08 am (#480 of 530)

I'm not sure how Snape could be sure that LV wouldn't kill Lily along with James. But the biggest objection I can see there is that, no matter how emotionally vulnerable Lily might have been, Snape would have to be -really- stupid to think that Lily would be prepared to join the side that killed her husband and child, and was keen on killing people like her parents.

What I find rather baffling is Snape's “I spun him a tale of deepest remorse when I joined the staff fresh from my Death Eater days.” Why did he need to add "fresh from my Death Eater days"? It initially led me to think that Snape joined the Hogwarts staff -after- LV fell and the whole Death Eater club fell apart. But from the other bits it looks as if Snape has definitely been on the staff for at least some time before LV fell. So if LV intended for Snape to join Hogwarts to spy on DD, did he also intend for Snape to actually reveal to DD that he was a Death Eater, spin a tale of remorse, and pretend to switch sides? If he did, then it's strange that there is no real direct reference to it when Snape explains that LV wanted him at Hogwarts to spy on DD.

- - - - - - - - - -
Blots - Oct 15, 2005 11:44 am (#481 of 530)

Edited Oct 15, 2005 12:29 pm
I agree with you entirely, Saracene (post #480.) Part of my reason for backing off the idea of Harry as a trap was rereading Snape’s Worst Memory (OoP.) If Snape ever did more than admire Lily Evans from afar, he surely ended any friendship and alienated her, when he called her a “mudblood.” It might have been uttering that epithet which is Snape’s worst memory--worse than being teased and bullied by James Potter. I also reminded myself that in 1981, Snape would have been 21. Not quite the 16 year old “snivelus,” of Snape’s Worst Memory, but certainly not the powerful wizard we see at the end of HBP, and certainly not a wizard who would reasonably expect to supplant LV.

Of course that still does not rule out Snape having adequate remaining motives for seeking LV’s defeat and James’ death by using Harry as a trap. However, there are additional reasons I’ve come to reject the idea.

You also object that Snape could not expect Lily to survive the attack. It is very curious that Voldemort goes out of his way in PS to as much as say he was there to kill James and Harry only. “I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight…but your mother needn’t have died…she was trying to protect you. (PS, p. 294.)

However from my point of view, the implications for the motives of DD and Snape sending HRH into the dungeons at the end of Book 1 are more damaging to the idea. Under any scenario where Harry is a Horcrux and Voldemort does not know it, the purpose of having the stone drop into Harry’s pocket, with Voldemort as “Vapormort,” is pretty clear. While it would turn expected character relations around with results I find dramatically much more interesting, I do not think that is JKR’s intent. The problem for me was, given the “changeling” hypothesis, I could never think of another reason. Now it seems clear, if “Vapormort” knows Harry is his Horcrux, and DD and Snape think he is the only Horcrux, there is a reason. It is more contrived, but it fits JKR’s description of events better.

Anyway, I think the original idea that DD trusts Snape because, in addition to the reasons given above, they are the ones who share the secret about Harry as a Horcrux remains intact in all of this.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Oct 15, 2005 5:30 pm (#482 of 530)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Blots - "...and DD and Snape think he is the only Horcrux,"

If Dumbledore thinks this, why does he tell Harry that there are six horcruxes (plus the one in Voldemort himself)? Have I misunderstood what you are saying?

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Oct 15, 2005 10:22 pm (#483 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
I think there is something more to the reason Voldemort would have let Lily live. I think it may have something to do with her green eyes. I know that sounds a bit silly, but we know that there is something very special that we will find out about Lily in the last book and that we will learn something about her and that her eyes are important.

If it is not her eyes... I would say that perhaps it had something to do with her line of work. JKR has never told us what James & Lily did for a living ... and I have the funny feeling that Lily (and maybe James too?) worked for the Department of Mysteries and that perhaps Lily was an 'Unspeakable'.

- - - - - - - - - -
Saracene - Oct 15, 2005 11:41 pm (#484 of 530)

Hmm... I'm quite sceptical about the idea that Snape's worst memory is more about him calling Lily a Mudblood, rather than him being tormented by James and Sirius. Mostly because the whole point about removing that memory from his mind into the Pensieve is so that Harry doesn't get to see it. I can't really imagine Snape caring that Harry would see him calling his mother a Mudblood - but I can easily believe that he'd -really- hate Harry (or anyone for that matter) to see him in a position where he's so horribly humiliated.

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Oct 16, 2005 1:26 am (#485 of 530)

Saracene,

It could be some of both. Of course, James and Sirius had put Severus in a very humiliating position that he wouldn't want Harry to see. But I absolutely don't think he'd want Harry to hear him call Lily a mudblood -- I don't think he'd want anyone to "see" that again. I really don't think it's any accident. that Severus not only never, ever makes derogatory comments about Lily to Harry, but that he never comments on her at all. Regardless what the reason is for that, I think the reason would also encompass a desire for Harry to not see that comment.

I was reading that scene yesterday and noticed something Lily says (sorry, I won't get the quote right, since I've not got the book right here). Just after Severus makes the mudblood comment, James is going to try to make him apologize and Lily says something like, "It's not you I want to make him apologize." The italics was in the text, even if the quote isn't quite right. Anyway, with the italics included, depending on how you read it, it almost sounded like Lily did want and apology, but didn't want somebody else, and especially James, to force Severus to make it.

As to what makes that "Snape's worst memory," I'm not sure. I've got 2 high school kids now and I'm often amazed at the number of rather awful remarks kids can make to each other and it doesn't irrevocably harm their friendship. So I have a hard time seeing the "mudblood" comment ending a friendship, unless it ended a friendship because Lily wanted an apology, but Severus, instead of apologizing, simply stopped talking to her. I've seen that happen before, where the injured party is willing to forgive, but the guilty party won't offer an apology. Not because the guilty party isn't sorry, but because they allow their action to be a barrier and won't speak again to apologize.

- - - - - - - - - -
Saracene - Oct 16, 2005 2:41 am (#486 of 530)

I guess it -could- be a mixture of both. I still think that humiliation at the hands of James and Sirius is what Snape was most eager to hide. IMO Snape's reaction right after he catches Harry in the act - "Having fun?" "Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?" - points that James' behaviour is what he's sore about.

And this is purely my personal impression, of course, but from the way the scene was written I just didn't get the feeling that Lily was defending someone who was her friend, exactly. She seemed to stick up for Snape because she thought that what James and Sirius were doing was wrong, but I didn't really get any more intimate, "personal" vibe between Lily and Snape that would indicate friendship or even liking. For one thing, during the entire scene she only speaks to James, apart from the mudblood remark there's no exchange between Lily and Snape at all.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Oct 16, 2005 6:56 pm (#487 of 530)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, I got that impression too Saracene. Lily even goes so far as to end up calling Snape "Snivellus" and telling him to wash his underware. She does tell James she doesn't want him to make Snape apologise, but the reason is because she says James is as bad as Snape. James has no business making anyone apologise because he needs to apologise himself.

- - - - - - - - - -
loony - Nov 10, 2005 7:48 am (#488 of 530)

About Snape never talking in a bad way of Lily...isn't this even more surprising if we consider that he makes mean remarks about James, and James saved his life (if I remember correctly). What did Lily do for Snape, that is more important then saving his life, so he never mentions her in a bad (or any other) way?

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Nov 10, 2005 8:23 pm (#489 of 530)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Saving someone's life may not be a personal thing - you jump in and do something and bingo!...a life is saved. It may not take much time or committment - you just do something heroic and you're gone. I think if Lily did anything at all to make Snape like/respect her, she befriended him. She saw good things in Snape that maybe he didn't even see in himself. Friendship is a very personal thing - it takes time and effort to be a friend. James may have saved his life, but Lily (maybe) took the time to try to understand him and be his friend - a much more personal thing. To a lonely, isolated boy like Snape, that probably meant the world to him.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Nov 11, 2005 7:55 am (#490 of 530)

I agree, Choices. Plus, Snape feels James only saved him to save himself from getting in trouble. Or at least that is what he tells himself...

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Nov 11, 2005 6:54 pm (#491 of 530)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, Snape definitely suspected that James had an ulterior motive in saving his life.

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Nov 11, 2005 11:41 pm (#492 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Oh...something just occured to me. I wonder if James warning Snape (and thereby saving his life) had something to do with Lily. Maybe Lily made James go warn Snape ('or else' in the way girls do). Maybe the life debt is really to Lily and that is why Voldemort wouldn't have killed Lily had she gotten out of the way (for the sake of Snapes life debt to Lily). Could this theory work?

Either way, if a life debt is passed down, especially in this case because James and Lily were murdered partially on account of Snape & his information (at the least), maybe that is why Dumbledore trusted Snape. Maybe he has some very strong magic that requires him to protect Harry. Yes, maybe he can be nasty to him, but he cannot harm him. And Snape would hate being indebted to the son of James.

- - - - - - - - - -
Saracene - Nov 12, 2005 3:30 am (#493 of 530)

Yeah, but Pettigrew makes no attempt to help or protect Harry in any way when he's captured in GoF, despite owing Harry a life debt.

Besides, even if life debt somehow made Snape act, I just don't see it reducing him to a state of remorse.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Nov 12, 2005 5:30 am (#494 of 530)

Librarian
Saracene, I think that Peter did try to protect Harry. In the first chapter he tries to convince Voldemort to use someone else besides Harry. A feeble attempt but it was an attempt. There is a line from the last Mary Tyler Moore show which seems appropriate, if possibly in bad taste. Murray says of Ted Baxter "When a jack ass flies you don't expect him to stay up there long." (Quotation is from memory and may not be exactly right.)

- - - - - - - - - -
Saracene - Nov 13, 2005 3:41 am (#495 of 530)

I'm not sure at all that Peter tried to convince Voldemort to use someone besides Harry out of desire to protect Harry. I think I'd agree with Voldemort's suspicion that Peter's suggestion that he goes away and finds a substitute is basically an attempt to get away from the master he abhors and fears. Voldemort after all knows when Pettigrew is lying to him.

- - - - - - - - - -
T Vrana - Nov 13, 2005 10:54 am (#496 of 530)

I have to disagree. While Pettigrew does wish to get away from LV, he makes the suggestion not to use Harry, then...

"Without Harry Potter," breathed a second voice. "I see..."

"My Lord, I do not say this out of concern for the boy!" said Wormtail, his voice rising squeakily. "The boy is nothing to me, nothing at all..."

What prompted him to say this? Nothing that LV said suggested Pettigrew cared for Harry. Me thinks he doth protest too much...

- - - - - - - - - -
Ann - Nov 13, 2005 11:46 am (#497 of 530)

I really can't see that Snape is permanently constrained by the life debt to James. Doesn't Dumbledore say, at the end of SS/PS "Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt.... I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace...."

To me, that says that Snape considers the debt paid in full at the end of Harry's first year. So if that was what was keeping Snape on Dumbledore's side, he's been free to go back and be a DE again since Chamber of Secrets. (But I don't think it is, and I don't think he has.)

- - - - - - - - - -
septentrion - Nov 13, 2005 2:00 pm (#498 of 530)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Those last posts have made me remember that when Snape aknowledge to Bellatrix he didn't try to kill Harry while in Hogwarts, he carefully staid mouth-closed about that life-debt story with James Potter.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Nov 22, 2005 7:37 pm (#499 of 530)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
After seeing GOF, I am once again reminded of Dumbledore's statement about Snape that, "He is no more a Death Eater than I am." Oh, to have a full explanation of that statement....!!!

- - - - - - - - - -
RoseMorninStar - Nov 23, 2005 9:00 pm (#500 of 530)

I live in the Shire. It looks a lot like Wisconsin, USA
Choices, I don't think I would read too much into that statement. JKR has said several times, in different ways, that Dumbledore is 'the epitome of good' and that 'Albus' means white or 'good'. So, if you are thinking that Snape is /was a death eater so Dumbledore was too, I think you would be mistaken.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape? (Post 501 to 530)

Post  Elanor on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:35 am

Veritaserum - Jan 9, 2006 3:22 pm (#501 of 530)
Go Jays!
Wow, I finally finished reading all these posts! Now for my own thoughts:

I reread "Spinners End" a couple of weeks ago, and I didn't buy Snape's story for a minute. He just told them everything they wanted to hear and left out many details of things, like someone mentioned earlier, the whole life debt thing.

Now about life debts, I don't think they are as binding as many people seem to think. When I read about it, I was thinking they were more kindo of a psychological thing. Now that they've saved your life, you're going to have a connection with them, and you're probably not going to want to harm them. Wormtail obviously does not protect Harry from LV and it's pretty plain to see this is because Wormtail is weak and would never stand up to him.

Another interesting thing I noticed was what people said about Snape's being a teacher before LV's downfall. So this would have to mean that either Voldemort gave him a specific mission to spy at Hogwarts, and Snape gave Dumbledore a lie about being reformed, OR he really did have a change of heart, go to work for Dumbledore, and leave LV for good. If the second were the case, LV would have every reason to believe that Snape had left him forever, and therefore be much more suspicious of him when he came back. Because this scenario would have meant that Snape, as a 20 year old kid, decided on nobody's orders but his own, that spying at Hogwarts would be a good idea. So he takes it upon himself to get a job there and tells a bold-faced lie to either LV or DD (or both?) I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but it is something to think about.

People have said if Snape was so good at Potions, why was he such a lousy teacher? It could be that he was not really meant nor did he really want to be a teacher at all, but was only there because it was a good way to be close to Dumbledore (for what purpose we don't know). I also think that the reason Snape never got to teach DADA was that DD wanted Snape to stay close to him, which therefore means that he had a very good reason for giving him the post in HBP.

I guess my conclusion is that I do think Snape is good or at the very least serving himself. I don't think he is serving Voldemort, but I am no closer to saying what caused him to change than anyone on here. I just think that having Snape turn out to be a bad guy after all would be too easy. I would also really like to know what the relationships between Snape/Dumbledore and Snape/Voldemort are really like. I think that would tell us many things.

- - - - - - - - - -
Weeny Owl - Jan 10, 2006 10:34 am (#502 of 530)

According to what Snape told Bella, he took up the post at Hogwarts on Voldemort's orders, and Bella nodded that she already knew that was the case. Voldemort needed someone to spy on Dumbledore.

- - - - - - - - - -
Soul Search - Jan 10, 2006 11:30 am (#503 of 530)

I still can't give up the idea that Snape's turn against Voldemort is somehow related to Regulus. The timeline of their ages and being DE's doesn't preclude them knowing each other.

Problem is, there isn't enough canon to suggest any possibilies. Actually, maybe the lack of canon is a good reason to be suspicious.

Thoughts are running something like this:

Harry realizes that R.A.B is Regulus (with heel-of-hand-to-forehead.)

Harry learns more about Regulus, including that he hung with Snape (or something) and that leads Harry to discover "Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape."

Then Harry knows that he, too, can trust Snape (he will fight the concept, though.)

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Jan 10, 2006 12:14 pm (#504 of 530)

I wondered if Snape filled the older brother role for Regulus.

Mama Black certainly wasn't too happy with Sirius and if Regulus was trying to please, he would have hung with the proper-sort once he got to Hogwarts.

It certainly would be easier if we knew how old Regulus was. If he was just a couple of years younger, I think this would fit. However, if he were Barty Jr.'s age, that throws a wrench in things.

- - - - - - - - - -
Esther Rose - Jan 10, 2006 12:29 pm (#505 of 530)

I wonder whether Snape and James were cousins. Perhaps the grease in the hair was by order of Snape's father to keep his hair from becoming unruly like James. I have nothing to support this though.

- - - - - - - - - -
Soul Search - Jan 10, 2006 12:45 pm (#506 of 530)

haymoni,

I seem to recall from the Sirius, Regulus, or R.A.B topics that we decided Regulus was a few years younger than Sirius, which would mean he was a few years younger than Snape.

I don't recall the reasoning, though.

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Jan 10, 2006 1:06 pm (#507 of 530)

I don't think we had any basis for that either, Soul Search.

We just know that Regulus is younger.

We don't know how MUCH younger.

It would be kind of cool if JKR was pulling our leg when she said Regulus was dead. If he was now Stubby Boardman, Regulus Black could be "dead".

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Jan 10, 2006 2:34 pm (#508 of 530)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
This comment by Slughorn in the Horace Slughorn chapter of HBP seems to indicate Regulus was younger.....

"The whole Black family had been in my House, but Sirius ended up in Gryffindor! Shame---he was a talented boy. I got his brother Regulus, when he came along, but I'd have liked the set."

It doesn't say it for sure, but it does sound like Regulus came to Hogwarts after Sirius and would, therefore, be younger.

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Jan 10, 2006 9:03 pm (#509 of 530)

I thought Sirius told Harry that Regulus was his younger brother when he was relating the story of his death.

We just don't know if he was younger or if he was a kid brother.

- - - - - - - - - -
MichaelmasGal - Jan 27, 2006 2:09 am (#510 of 530)

I think that Snape is the kind of person who seeks out power, and shifts to align himself with it. When Voldemort was broken after trying to kill Harry, Snape saw that his smartest move would be to get into DD good graces. But when Voldy began his comeback, Snape began to try and figure out which side would win the war, so working as a double agent suited him. As for why DD trusted him, I think he wants to see the good in people so much that this can blind him. Or Snape possibly showed Love, which DD thinks is the greatest power, and that convinced him he was no longer a DE.

- - - - - - - - - -
Saracene - Feb 1, 2006 3:57 am (#511 of 530)

Except that Snape switched sides -before- Voldemort lost his powers after trying to kill Harry. So Snape actually switched sides when Voldemort was at his peak and the Order was slowly losing.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Feb 1, 2006 12:32 pm (#512 of 530)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
"Snape possibly showed love...." LOL Not our dear Severus. Love??Bah, humbug!! LOL

- - - - - - - - - -
The Artful Dodger - Feb 9, 2006 2:08 am (#513 of 530)

So Snape actually switched sides when Voldemort was at his peak and the Order was slowly losing.

According to Snape, he was sent to Hogwarts by Voldemort, so we can't be sure about that.

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Feb 9, 2006 10:58 am (#514 of 530)

Actually, it was DD that said that Severus had been a spy for the Order at great personal risk before LV was defeated while trying to kill Harry. A close look at the timeline shows that Severus probably started teaching at Hogwarts the same year that Lily and James died -- that would be only 2 months prior to their deaths. Yet he'd probably been spying a good deal longer than that.

Since we know that Severus was also the one to hear the partial prophecy and take it to LV, that seems to indicate that Severus changed sides sometime after taking the prophecy to LV, yet surely well before DD was willing to hire him at Hogwarts. It seems hard to believe that DD would hire Severus immediately after he had switched sides. One would expect DD to at least have Severus as a spy for the Order for awhile before hiring him to teach students.

Apparently LV had sent Severus to try to get a job at Hogwarts when Severus heard the prophecy. That was most likely at least the year before he actually was hired by DD. In that case, DD didn't hire Severus the first time he came to apply. At that point, Severus was still fully LV's man, and had just been caught eavesdropping.

By the next year, LV still considered Severus a faithful DE. But he was also spying for the Order. So when DD hired him to teach, LV would certainly have still wanted Severus, whom he considered a faithful DE, to teach at Hogwarts, but DD would have known that Severus was on the Order's side by then.

Of course, you could argue that Severus was tricking DD the whole time, but I find it less likely that a 20 year old could be that good at deceiving DD. LV may be pretty powerful, but to me DD always seems a lot more knowing than LV. So I think it more likely that it was LV being tricked by Severus, not DD.

- - - - - - - - - -
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 9, 2006 7:21 pm (#515 of 530)

Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
wynnleaf wrote -- "By the next year, LV still considered Severus a faithful DE. But he was also spying for the Order. So when DD hired him to teach, LV would certainly have still wanted Severus, whom he considered a faithful DE, to teach at Hogwarts, but DD would have known that Severus was on the Order's side by then."

I don't get that from the books. In HBP Seer Overheard chapter, DD tells Harry "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realised how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned -"

I'm not sure but it seems "the reason he returned" implies Snape was not spying for the Order and didn't approach DD with redemption on his mind until after the murders. I don't think Vold shared the interpretation of the prophecy with the DE's. It is possible that he told Snape and the two of them went to Godric's Hollow together, as some have theorized. Prior to that point, Snape could have approached DD or Lily to warn them but I find that highly unlikely.

- - - - - - - - - -
Weeny Owl - Feb 12, 2006 1:57 am (#516 of 530)

He was vouched for by Dumbledore during Karkaroff's trial. Dumbledore said that Snape returned to their side before the fall of Voldemort, so it would seem that he was definitely on the Order's side before Godric's Hollow.

- - - - - - - - - -
Soul Search - Feb 12, 2006 9:16 am (#517 of 530)

We know, from the prophecy wording, that both the Potters and Longbottoms "defied the Dark Lord three times." That means that Voldemort went after the Potters and Longbottoms prior to the prophecy and before Godric's Hollow.

Voldemort doesn't do things just on his own. No doubt death eaters were involved, too. Maybe Snape was with Voldemort one of the times the Potters or Longbottoms "defied" Voldemort. His remorse may have come from such an event.

- - - - - - - - - -
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 12, 2006 3:09 pm (#518 of 530)

Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Weeny Owl, thanks for your post. I can't remember the chronology of Karkaroff's trial nor DD saying that, but I trust you do recall it.

Soul Search, I agree that Vold went after Potters and Longbottoms three times before prophecy was made but DD is insinuating that "how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy" is what caused Snape's remorse and joining DD.

It seems weird to me that if Snape knew how Voldemort was interpreting the prophecy before the actual murders, and he felt so much remorse before the actual murders, then why couldn't he prevent them happening? If he joined the Order before the murders occurred, wouldn't he have told at least DD that Vold was interpretting the prophecy as "now I've got to kill Harry Potter and James while I'm at it"?

So this leaves me with the assumption that Snape *did* tell DD and they all thought the Potters would be safe at G'sH. With all this in mind, how can Snape be in the same room with Wormtail and not kill him for being the one responsible for Vold knowing where the Potters were hiding?

- - - - - - - - - -
Veritaserum - Feb 12, 2006 5:28 pm (#519 of 530)

Go Jays!
The fact that Wormtail and Snape are rooming togehter is interesting to me, too. They are both double agents, and are both considered "special servants" of the Dark Lord. They also both have a life-debt to a Potter...

- - - - - - - - - -
Wizadora - Feb 14, 2006 3:06 pm (#520 of 530)

They are also both responsible in some way for Harry being the one. Snape for letting LV know the prophecy and WT for betraying the Potter whereabouts.

- - - - - - - - - -
Wizadora - Feb 14, 2006 3:07 pm (#521 of 530)

They also strike me as opposites in many descriptive ways. Snape tall, thin, Wormtail, small round. I wonder what a proper review of the personality traits would reveal?

- - - - - - - - - -
Veritaserum - Feb 14, 2006 3:35 pm (#522 of 530)

Go Jays!
Here is an idea I posted on the "Was the major death in HBP real" thread.

Maybe Snape knows he must kill DD or die himself, and so that's why he did it: not on DD's orders but to save himself, while at the same time hating him for it. That may explain why he was so sensitive about being a coward, because he knew himself to be one. So now that he feels so badly about his moment of weakness in killing Dumbledore, he will continue to fight Voldemort and probably die in the process of trying to make up for his mistakes. It's possible.

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Feb 15, 2006 7:50 am (#523 of 530)

Wizadora - I had this vision of Laurel & Hardy flash before my eyes upon reading your post!

- - - - - - - - - -
Wizadora - Feb 15, 2006 2:49 pm (#524 of 530)

Haymoni, LOL but I don't think that Snape would like that one bit!

- - - - - - - - - -
Saracene - Feb 15, 2006 3:13 pm (#525 of 530)

"With all this in mind, how can Snape be in the same room with Wormtail and not kill him for being the one responsible for Vold knowing where the Potters were hiding?"

Well, Snape has got his spying job to do and killing Wormtail wouldn't exactly help his cover.

- - - - - - - - - -
frogface - Feb 15, 2006 4:11 pm (#526 of 530)

There was a collective theory going around that Dumbledore had Snape suggest to Voldemort that Peter stay with him. It would be interesting to see what the affect would be on Peter if Snape were to make snide remarks about James.

- - - - - - - - - -
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 15, 2006 4:18 pm (#527 of 530)

Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I agree, Saracene, and was probably just thinking aloud...

frogface, that's definitely the way I see it. If Snape, as Narcissa said, is in fact "Dark Lord's favourite" then I could imagine Wormtail staying at Spinner's End being Snape's idea which Vold agreed to. I'm sure Vold has no reason to want him around, especially since he probably has no idea Wormtail owes Harry a life debt.

- - - - - - - - - -
Weeny Owl - Feb 15, 2006 4:59 pm (#528 of 530)

If he joined the Order before the murders occurred, wouldn't he have told at least DD that Vold was interpretting the prophecy as "now I've got to kill Harry Potter and James while I'm at it"?

I think he did tell Dumbledore how Voldemort was interpreting the Prophecy.

When Harry sneaked into Hogsmeade and was in The Three Broomsticks, he, Ron, and Hermione overheard Fudge, Madam Rosemerta, Flitwick, McGonagall, and Hagrid discussing the Fidelius Charm and such.

Fudge said that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them because one of Dumbledore's spies had tipped him off and he (Dumbledore) alerted James and Lily at once. It was barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed that Voldemort came to Godric's Hollow and killed James and Lily.

Fudge said that Dumbledore had a number of useful spies, but I've always thought that the spy in question who alerted Dumbledore about the Potters was Snape.

- - - - - - - - - -
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 15, 2006 5:48 pm (#529 of 530)

Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Interesting, Weeny Owl. I've been interpreting that as DD/James/Lily becoming aware Vold was after James but not after Harry. In any event, it seems to fit as far as JKR foreshadowing Snape's spying for the Order pre-murders.

- - - - - - - - - -
geauxtigers - Feb 22, 2006 5:02 pm (#530 of 530)

Yum!
I think I agree with you Weeny Owl, to be honest that never crossed my mind until now. But it could have been anyone. I never really thought about who the spy was before now and now that I am, Snape seems the most obvious, yet the least obvious...which makes him the most obvious, get it?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Re: Why Dumbledore Trusted Snape?

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum