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Comparing HP to Other Works

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Comparing HP to Other Works Empty Comparing HP to Other Works

Post  Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:26 am

Comparing HP to Other Works

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

Penny Lane. - Dec 30, 2004 3:11 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 12:24 pm
->I changed this thread's name from "Harry is... Buffy?" to "Comparing HP to Other Works" to allow for a broader discussion of other literary works.<- S.E. Jones


There are many similarities between Harry Potter and other series. The themes, various plots and even characters are similar to others in different works of literature and even television shows throughout history.

One of these television shows would be “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” (BtVS). When she is a teenager, she is told that she has powers, and her fate is sealed in a prophecy. As she ages, she comes to terms with her new life, and she relies heavily on her 2 best friends, a very intelligent witch named Willow, and a goof off type named Xander. Together, they face many apocalyptic situations, and they also have a less centralized group of friends to rely on, including an ex-demon, a werewolf, and an older gentleman whose primary function is to offer advice when needed. All of these people tend to operate under the radar of the general public, much like the magical world displayed in the “Harry Potter” novels.

When Buffy is fifteen, she encounters her first major trial. She finds out that she is supposed to fight the Master and die. The Master is supposedly older then all the other vampires and has the power to read and control minds. The prophecy states that she will be led to the master and die. Her death allows him to walk free from his underground prison. She hears the prophecy, and goes after him. As he states, had she not gone to him, he wouldn’t have been able to leave. This is similar to something that Harry experiences in OoP.

Over the seven years (just like 7 books!) that “Buffy” aired on television, the trio faced many different types of evil and many different villains. This makes it very different from Harry Potter, in that Harry seems to be only fighting his internal battle, Voldemort, Death Eaters, and of course other students and administration who get in the way.

Many of the themes that have been in BtVS explored have also appeared in the Potterverse. For example, the issue of half-breeds in regards to werewolves. When werewolves are first introduced on Buffy, she must come to grips with the fact that it’s not the usual “Kill the evil beast” as a werewolf is a human 27 days out of a month. She has to fight with other hunters who only see the demon side of the beast. In Harry Potter, Harry is also slowly realizing that not everything is black or white. This is a common “coming of age” experience that is found in many different works of literature, and dramas.

Now, I feel that Willow is a lot like Hermione, Buffy is similar to Harry, and Xander plays the role of Ron. There is a character who is very Umbridge like, Principal Snider. He is constantly letting his hatred of Buffy blind him to fact that she is the only person who can save everyone – from various beings. Buffy must also struggle against the politics of her world – the Council of Watchers (COW), much like Harry must fight against the Ministry.

How can I apply this to Harry Potter? Well, I think that based upon the things that are similar, and the parts that are dissimilar, we maybe be able to accurately guess what will happen next. I think that comparing the two series could pay off and help us see connections differently.

First of all, Harry and Buffy are both bound by prophecy and neither of them really know where their power comes from. Both have experienced anger, based upon feeling like their destiny is out of their control. Since at this point, we don’t REALLY know how Harry will react in the end, we can take Buffy’s response and see if it compares. When Buffy was faced with the prophecy in Season One that she would die at the hand of the master, she reacted as most people would – with anger, denial, and lashed out at her friends. She also tried to protect her friends, and she went forward and still fought him. I think that Harry will do the same with Voldemort. Harry knows the wording of the prophecy, but he also knows how hard it is to make accurate predictions. Also, we the readers

(the end of Penny Lane's introduction to the thread was given in the first post of the thread:)

Penny Lane. - Dec 30, 2004 2:12 pm (#1 of 80)
OOps! I got cut off....

Also, we the readers know that there are different interpretations to everything. After Buffy died, her friends brought her back to life. I don’t know if this would happen in Harry Potter, but I think there is a strong possibility, based on the fact that we have seen a very strong emphasis on friendship, courage and cleverness.

While I know that the world that JKR has laid out is it’s own world, and it’s not based on other works, I think that coming up with a list of similarities to other works could be beneficial to us. So, everyone think of other series that you have seen, read, or listened to, and see if there are elements of HP.

I could go for hours on this topic, right down to 'shipping... But I'd rather hear what other people have to say also.
Elanor
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Comparing HP to Other Works Empty Comparing HP to Other Works (Post 2 to 50)

Post  Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:27 am

timrew - Dec 30, 2004 4:57 pm (#2 of 80)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
No.....I prefer to hang on to my belief that Harry is Frodo......

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Eponine - Dec 30, 2004 5:02 pm (#3 of 80)

Or Luke Skywalker? There's a lot of parallels to be drawn between HP and quite a few different series.

Penny, I think that Buffy and Harry do have quite a bit in common. Who would you compare Giles to?

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timrew - Dec 30, 2004 5:26 pm (#4 of 80)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Giles has got to be Grawp.....

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Accio Sirius - Dec 30, 2004 5:44 pm (#5 of 80)

Back to the old school Sirius
I would imagine Giles is Dumbledore or Lupin. I like the analogies Penny, and considering Buffy was one of my favorite shows, I enjoy the topic. Funny enough, I scoffed at Buffy at first too (much like I did the HP books), so lesson learned: you should give just about everything a second chance. I know that Joss Whedon, Buffy creator and writer, is a big Harry Potter fan. If I look hard enough, I may find some quotes. What strikes me the most as far as similarities is the underdog factor in both Buffy and HP, particularly how having your friends close at hand, playing to all of their strengths, is what saves them from a seemingly over-powering evil. And not to spill the beans too soon, but I find it interesting that in the end Buffy defies all of the rules of the prophecy, creates her own destiny (and those of other slayers) to wage the big battle. I believe JKR said the way the prophecy is worded is tricky. So maybe in some way Harry can change his own prophecy.

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Accio Sirius - Dec 30, 2004 5:49 pm (#6 of 80)

Back to the old school Sirius
Here's one quote I found through TLC from Spin Magazine:

JOSS WHEDON (Buffy creator; science fiction and fantasy savant): I think the Harry Potter books are the finest of the century! JK Rowling is one of the two or three best storytellers in young-adult fiction, with CS Lewis and Roald Dahl. Her characters are archetypes without being cutouts - we've definitely known these guys, and at the same time, they're bigger than life. I'd like to see Harry kick it out a little, push against authority, including Dumbledore. But it's great that Harry actually gets older as the books go on. In the last one, they had kids making out for the first time - by Book Seven they'll be like, 'Take that wand and shove it up your.....'"

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Penny Lane. - Dec 30, 2004 7:54 pm (#7 of 80)

Eponine - I was thinking Giles would be a Dumbledore-esque character, for a variety of reasons. Giles is older, he is the one with all the "book info", and he has also proven himself to be an effective fighter with a mysterious past.

Accio Sirius - Even though BtVS is one of my favorite shows, I came into it only after it went off the air. I haven't really seen all of season 7, so I dont' know how it ends. In some ways I dont' want to know. I also found that it just went way downhill about halfway through Season 6... So I prefer to base everything on just seasons 1-5.

Anyway, I agree about the "underdog" factor. I think that Harry will also find a "loophole" in the prophecy, much like Buffy has, time and time again.

I know that things won't match up equally - they are two completly differenet series. I also think we could talk about how HP is similar to LoTR if ya'll want, even though I'm not personally a huge fan.

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Choices - Dec 30, 2004 8:19 pm (#8 of 80)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Harry says it best in the movie...."I'm just Harry, just Harry". A boy like no other.....:-)

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zelmia - Dec 31, 2004 10:44 am (#9 of 80)

Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Not to bring the party down or anything, but the Harry Potter Series is comprised of well-established archetypes and literary paradigms (i.e. the Triad of Male Hero - Best Friend/Sidekick - Female Counterpart/Love Interest) that permeate our entertainment culture. We could draw parallels between HP and countless other tales.

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Solitaire - Dec 31, 2004 8:03 pm (#10 of 80)

Accio Sirius: by Book Seven they'll be like, 'Take that wand and shove it up your.....'"

LOL Accio! Didn't the Weasley twins come rather close to that in the Hog's Head when they were talking to Zacharias Smith?

"Well, we've all turned up to learn from him, and now he's telling us he can't really do any of it," he [Zacharias] said.

"That's not what he said," snarled Fred Weasley.

"Would you like us to clean out your ears for you?" inquired George, pulling a long and lethal-looking metal instrument from inside one of the Zonko's bags.

"Or any part of your body, really, we're not fussy where we stick this," said Fred.

Solitaire

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schoff - Jan 1, 2005 2:45 am (#11 of 80)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
We could draw parallels between HP and countless other tales.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Epic tales tend to have the same formula: Hero(ine), (Older) Mentor, Secondary Help, Antagonists, etc. It would fairly interesting if JKR broke with some of these traditions, but I don't think she will.

Because of this, I think that by using literary comparisons we may be able to figure out part of the plot. This is really the main reason I think DD will die--because the Mentor almost always does in order for the Hero to finally stand on their own.

Joseph Campbell once did an excellent PBS series entitled "The Power of Myth." It was an excellent deconstruction of the ingredients needed for a compelling and enduring mythos. Simply fascinating. JKR follows it pretty well--as did George Lucas for the original "Star Wars." I checked it out from my local library.

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Penny Lane. - Jan 1, 2005 9:10 am (#12 of 80)

Well, thats what I was thinking. - Use different comparisons to figure out the plot. I just titled it "harry is...buffy" because I couldn't think of anything else.

I think JKR will deviate from the traditional forumla, because that's what makes a good story. Taking the traditional elements and updating it to our times. I find it intresting that she has her "Hero" placed in an alternate world where playstations and computers don't exist, even though there are mentioned in the books. It is similar to the way that BtVS always fights with crossbows and hand weapons, even though guns are (possibly) available. Both Joss Wheaton and JK Rowling have been able to forge these believable alternate worlds, which borrow from traditional "hero" storys.

I know there are other literary and/or film comaparisions to be made.

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Neville Longbottom - Jan 1, 2005 2:37 pm (#13 of 80)


even though guns are (possibly) available.


[OT]They are. Warren killed Tara and wounded Buffy with a gun.[/OT]

On topic:

I'm not really sure what to think about it. I rather agree with those who think that the similarities exist because they are based on archtypical stereotypes. IMO, the biggest similarity between Harry Potter and Buffy the Vampire Slayer is not between the characters, but in the storytelling. Boths works have the ability to switch believably from very funny scenes and a very lighheartened tone to really dark scenes and scenes involving tragedy in it's truest definition from one moment to another. At their best, Buffy as well as HP are able to portray comic as well as tragedy really well.

But I agree that Buffy went seriously downhill around mid-season six, and I hope HP won't follow this direction. You know there's something wrong when in Buffy season 7 the most sympathetic character is somebody who backstabbed and killed his best friend.
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Penny Lane. - Jan 1, 2005 4:31 pm (#14 of 80)

Well, I know that guns exist in Sunnydale. I was more or less refering to the fact that it would be difficult for Buffy to obtain a permit as she was in high school when she found out she was the slayer.

I agree about the storytelling, and how I think it's great that both Joss Wheaton and JK Rowling are able to switch from humor to dark tragedy quickly. I also like the use of language in both series.

Maybe a discussion of archtypes would be more suitable for this forum.

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frogface - Jan 3, 2005 4:37 am (#15 of 80)

I believe Harry is Harry. All legends, myths, whatever you want to call them, share similarites. Lets take fairy tales for example. The classic structure may vary but often take on the "Once upon a time - we are shown a glimpes of a happy world where all is good, then the villian comes along and takes over - then the hero is born (or at least introduced), the catalyst for all the following events - led on their journey by a mentor and a few friends to help along the way they finally meet and defeat the villian, and a resolution is reached...and they all live happily ever after. Now why this rule is certainly not set in stone, and is a little more black and white then reality would actually permit, I think we can all agree that this pattern can be applied loosely to many types of stories. I think we need to give JKR a little more credit and accept that while this story may follow a loose pattern that many others take, it is her story and the idea's come from her head, not someone elses. I believe Harry is Harry - yes he does have elements that can be seen in many hero's - his reckless bravery, his loyalty and devotion, and his classic hero flaws that are a weakness and a strength to him at the same time, but is also real and believable, he is a creation that took a lot of work and i think we should all give JKR a little more respect then to just assume so was watching daytime tv one day and decided to take buffy and put her in glasses and make her a 11 year old boy.

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Loopy Lupin - Jan 3, 2005 7:43 am (#16 of 80)

i think we should all give JKR a little more respect then to just assume so was watching daytime tv one day and decided to take buffy and put her in glasses and make her a 11 year old boy. -- frogface

I don't think anyone is really saying that.

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Choices - Jan 3, 2005 11:16 am (#17 of 80)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Harry may just remind us of a lot of other "heros" because as the old saying goes, "there is nothing new under the sun". Yes, JKR may have paid tribute to other writers or characters in history by incorporating elements of them into her books, but all the same, her characters and stories are unique and brilliant. She is a smart and educated woman and she couldn't help but be influenced by her many and varied experiences and by the books she has read. Those experiences are bound to show up in her writing. But, I am of the opinion that Harry is "just Harry" and a unique creation of JKR.

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schoff - Jan 4, 2005 11:15 pm (#18 of 80)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
I'm not so sure that it's JKR paying tribute so much as her following (either intentionally or not) an established protocol. There is a basic formula to all epics: Hero, Trials, Antigonist(s), Sidekick(s), among many other similarities.

We can discuss similarities between JKR's works and that of others because there are similarities. Just like we can discuss the similarities between some other work and its conterparts (ie "Buffy", "LOTR", "Hunchback of Notre Dame", "King Arthur"). It doesn't mean JKR stole, modeled, or paid tribute to anything with her works. It just means she's following a well-worn path.

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Choices - Jan 5, 2005 12:21 pm (#19 of 80)

*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
By "paying tribute", I mean that it is her way of tipping her hat to another writer by saying "your writing/character/scenerio (whatever) is worthy of imitation".

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Accio Sirius - Jan 7, 2005 11:35 am (#20 of 80)

Back to the old school Sirius
I loved Buffy and love Harry Potter. I hadn't necessarily drew any distinct correlations between the two before, but there was something about the appeal of both that seemed similar to me. I think it is about empowerment, specifically those who are dismissed by society or are considered the least likely to be able to fight back. I wouldn't necessarily call it an underdog thing, or even a David versus Goliath mentality either. I think it is simply the notion that people have untapped power within themselves to rally something overpowering and possibly win. I don't mean that Harry will necessarily live to the end of the series, but I don't believe he will lose.

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Penny Lane. - Jan 7, 2005 1:51 pm (#21 of 80)

Edited by S.E. Jones Mar 6, 2005 9:10 pm
I was thinking today about the character of Angel, and how there really isn't a similar character in the whole Potterverse. I think thats where everything really falls apart - unless we use the fact that Buffy met Angel when she was 15, and they didn't really get all serious until she was 16. I really realy hope that this doesnt' mean Cho will be back.

Does Harry have anyone who shows up with dire warnings? Dobby perhaps? Granted, there will never be a Harry/Dobby relationship quite like Buffy/Angel, but Dobby does seem to have some sort of undying love for Harry, along with a tendancy to show up with warnings of danger.

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Eric Bailey - Jan 8, 2005 5:55 pm (#22 of 80)

Well, both HP and BtVS have the same concept: Taking the Hero's Journey structure and using it to tell the story of a teenager growing up.

Of course, that doesn't make either of these great works dirivitive, any more than The Odyssey, The Wizard of Oz, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Finding Nemo, Kill Bill, or any other story that's followed this mythic structure. For a quick summary of the steps, see [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Of course, given their similarities, Buffy and Harry are going to have more in common than usual. Both were raised in the normal world, though they would normally have been raised in the magical one, where, little do they know, they've vitally important, the fate of the world resting on them. They each get two best friends who play pretty well the same roles in their lives. They each have a mentor figure who's very wise and loving, but not perfect, as they learn the hard way. But, again, the mentor figure is a constant. Usually it's an old guy with a long beard, like Merlin, Gandalf, Dumbledore, and that guy in all those martial arts movies, but not always, as we've seen with Glenda and Giles.

So, no, I don't think JKR is lifting from Buffy, or LotR, or anything else. Though, I do have to wonder if Snyder from BtVS wasn't an inspiration for Umbridge.

For an Angel type, how about Luna? She's mysterious, cryptic, and tends to appear out of nowhere, usually at just the right time.

A connection to another classic Hero's Journey story... Three of the Houses match nicely with Dorothy's companions, who represent the qualities she needs to overcome the Wicked Witch: Wisdom/Scarecrow/Ravenclaw, Heart/Tin Man/Hufflepuff, and Courage/Lion/Gryffindor. Of course, that would make Slytherin Toto, so it kind of falls apart, there. Smile

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dizzy lizzy - Jan 8, 2005 9:10 pm (#23 of 80)

There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
If my memory serves me correctly, Toto is a little terrier type of dog. My Lucy, who used to be my avatar, is a Jack Russell/Maltese cross and she has a one track mind: Food (and telling everyone to get out of "her" yard!). So Toto would more than likely have the same one track mind (food/prey/whatever). In that case Toto represents the "Singlemindeness/self-serving/look after number one" qualities of Slytherin.

I think Jo's theme's in Harry Potter are so universal you could align them up with any "series". Probably not perfectly but close enough to illuminate the sheer breadth and scope of the HP series.

Lizzy

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Penny Lane. - Jan 9, 2005 6:38 pm (#24 of 80)


For an Angel type, how about Luna? She's mysterious, cryptic, and tends to appear out of nowhere, usually at just the right time.


That makes sense. I suppose i can jump on the Harry/Luna "ship" now. But, for some reason it just doesn't feel right.

I've also noticed another theme in most teen oriented series - the relationship conflict. Harry so far has not experienced that feeling of being in love. He has lusted and crushed, yes, but loved with a deep firey passion that interferred with his "work"? No.

I can see it happening though - Love makes great conflict. I would like to see Harry in love - sappy, puppy, follow the girl around love - which causes him to rethink this whol saving the world from the evil Voldemort thing.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jan 10, 2005 4:54 pm (#25 of 80)

Sometimes known as Kim.
I see a Tara-Luna connection more than a Angel-Luna connection. Both Tara and Luna lost their mothers when they were young, both are socially disconnected and both are a bit "off in their own world" so to speak.

I think Angel has more in common with Sirius. Both were bad boys, both are incredibly strong and dangerous and both have suffered for their sins.

Although I see an argument for a Giles-Dumbledore connection, I see it more in Giles and Lupin. Both are mild mannered, educated, bookish. Yet both can be very dangerous if crossed.

I'm wondering which character we can correlate to Spike. Draco perhaps? Both have that white-blond hair, both are bad, remorseless. If Draco turns it around by the end of book 7, he'd be following in Spike's footsteps.

Well, although I think there's no real connection, I couldn't pass up the chance to toss in my 2 cents when talking about my favorite book series and my favorite tv series. Thanks for starting the thread Penny.

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Eric Bailey - Jan 11, 2005 1:18 am (#26 of 80)

Tara does resemble Luna in some ways, but doesn't have Luna's ego, which is strong enough to challenge even Hermione's. Smile

Personality-wise, Luna's sort of a mix of Tara, Buffy, and the alternate universe vampire version of Willow. I could easily picture the last words said before she, Ron, Ginny, and Neville clobbered the Inquisitorial Squad being "Bored, now...", especially considering she WAS bored. Smile

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Mare - Jan 11, 2005 1:30 am (#27 of 80)

Well that definately changed my perspective of Luna... Evil Willow!

But you have kind of a point that she isn't completely Tara. (She is only completely Luna after all) But to make the comparison, I say she is far more the Tara in the last of the epsisodes she played in as the Tara we first met. Both Luna and Tara have/had a definate sort of inner strength source.

I wonder who could be compared to Anya?

PS as for Draco, Crabbe and Goyle... Andrew, Jonathan and whatever his name was? That doesn't predict much good...

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Eric Bailey - Jan 11, 2005 4:40 am (#28 of 80)

The Draco of the Buffyverse is Harmony. Think about it... Blonde, snobby, not nearly as clever as she thinks, and considers herself Buffy's arch enemy while Buffy just sees her as an annoyance.

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Neville Longbottom - Jan 11, 2005 9:48 am (#29 of 80)

I agree Eric. Harmony fits 100%, as does season 1 Cordelia, except that she's too witty. And I think the character who most resembles Spike is Sirius. He is the bad boy rebel type, not Draco. And Jonathan, Andrew and Warren might have in common with the Draco's gang, that they are a thorn in the protagonists side, but at least in the beginning not really evil (although especially Warren really turned out horrible in the end), but otherwise I don't see much similarities. Draco is a snob, who would have looked down on Jonathan or Andrew, if he ever met them. Andrew is clearly a Colin Creevey, except more evil. Jonathan might be a bit similar to Neville, but Neville has a much stronger character, while Jonathan, although not really evil, was very weak willed. Warren is a sociopath who wanted to take revenge on the World for the way he was treated as a kid. Barty Crouch junior anyone? Or maybe even Tom Riddle?

And Percy is of course Wesley. That would make Cornelius Fudge = Quentin Travers. ;-)

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Penny Lane. - Jan 11, 2005 3:07 pm (#30 of 80)

I was thinking today during a lecture on constitutional law termanology about how when Buffy fought the master in Season One. He told her how if she hadn't come to him, he would have never been free. She knew when she went to fight him that she would die. She also knew where she was going when she followed the "annointed one". Buffy CHOSE to fight the master and die. She chose this path because she thought that she would at least take him down with her. She failed, but only through the help of her friends could she come back. Her friends brought her back to life so she could fight the master. The prophacy wasn't wrong, it was just unfinished.

I know that JKR said that death is final, and that nothing can bring back the dead. I was wondering about Muggle Medicine which we were introduced to in OoP. We also were told in CoS that "some muggle tricks are handy." CPR could be one of these tricks that they should learn. (or not)

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Neville Longbottom - Jan 11, 2005 4:18 pm (#31 of 80)

Penny, I really like that idea, except that it's too close to the plot twist of "Prophecy Girl" for my taste. I know that "Harry Potter" has similarities with many other works, and that it's hardly possible, to write anything new today, but this 1:1 copy of a storyline would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

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timrew - Jan 11, 2005 5:01 pm (#32 of 80)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
No, I don't buy this. Harry Potter is not a re-hash of Buffy.

It would be like saying Harry Potter is a re-hash of Superman, LOTR, The Narnia Books, The Baghdavad Ghita, The Saga of the Norse Gods, Three Men In A Boat, or The Rockford Files.

It ain't! There are a few plots knocking around; and JKR has done what all the above authors did before her......Stolen from mythology et al.

Don't forget Rule One of writing fiction. If you steal from one work, it's plagiarism. If you steal from several works, it's research.

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Eric Bailey - Jan 12, 2005 12:45 am (#33 of 80)

No one's saying HP is a ripoff of Buffy, or anything else. We're just noticing similarities with other Hero's Journey epics, especially the one it would naturally have the most in common with. Noticing common themes and character similarities sheds light on the various works, helps us understand all of them a little better. It isn't really about Harry overcoming Voldemort, so much as it is about Harry's growth, what he learns. It was Buffy's own snake obsessed evil wizard adversary who best put what both series are about, just before their final confrontation...

"It's been a long road getting here. For you… for Sunnydale. There has been achievement, joy, good times,… and there has been grief. There's been loss. Some people who should be here today… aren't. But we are. - Journey's end. And what is a journey? Is it just… distance traveled? Time spent? No. It's what happens on the way, it's the things that happen to you. At the end of the journey you're not the same. Today is about change. Graduation doesn't just mean your circumstances change, it means you do. You ascend… to a higher level. Nothing will ever be the same. Nothing."

Joseph Campbell called it "The Hero With a Thousand Faces". It's, essentually, the same basic concept, since Gilgamesh, myths teaching universal truths for it's culture. Harry Potter, BtVS, Kill Bill, Lord Of The Rings, Star Wars, The Wizard of Oz, Finding Nemo, etc, are our modern myths, doing for us what the great myths (and the religions based out of them) of the past did for their eras.

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Penny Lane. - Jan 13, 2005 3:06 pm (#34 of 80)

I don't think it would really be THAT close, nor do I really think that it would happen exactly as I planned out. I could, however, see a storyline about Harry being saved because he has friends. Tom Riddle/Voldemort is lacking in that department. Voldemort doesn't trust anyone, nor cares about anyone but himself. There is a line in BtVS season 2 where Kendra is telling Buffy how her emotions are distraction, but Buffy believes her emotions and friends give her power. I believe it's the same thing for Harry - the fact that he can feel emotion, hatred, caring, love, boredom, lust, attachment, whatever - that gives him an edge over Voldemort. Voldemort has no ties to the world, or to anyone else. To us muggles, we would call him a socialpath or a psychopath - probably both.

Basically, it comes down to the fact that Harry has more at stake than Voldemort. Also, Harry does have that muggle advantage - while both Tom Riddle and Harry Potter grew up with muggles, Harry is closer to them currently. Also, he posseses the capacity to care about them, and to see them as people - something that Voldemort lacks. Much like Buffy was able to see that not all vampires were evil. Well, not COMPLETLY evil, anyway.

PS - Thinking about the Faith/Buffy situation vs Harry/Neville I've been wondering if there is a correlation. Just something to think about...

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Eric Bailey - Jan 13, 2005 5:53 pm (#35 of 80)

Well, the implication, throughout, has been that love is what makes the difference, something Voldemort is incapable of feeling, or inspiring. Harry's friends back him because they care about him. Harry, himself, fights for those he loves. Voldemort is just in it for himself, and the Death Eaters are only backing him because they think they can get something out of it.

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Penny Lane. - Jan 14, 2005 6:45 pm (#36 of 80)

I agree.

There are a few Marrietta characters in Buffy too! People trusted Faith, and she turned. Also, in season 3, everyone trusted the "new watcher" who turned out to be evil, and tried to take over the world with that weird silver arm thing.

Cedric's position could be comparable to many people in BtVS as well. Quite often we meet new characters in an episode who don't make it to the end. It's a wonder that none of the Scooby Gang have major psychological disorders.

One of the strongest ideas from buffy was said in "Pangs" : "I like my evil like I like my men–evil". Now, I took that to mean that Buffy has a really hard time when the wrong doers have a good reason. I'm afraid that something might happen to Harry to make him re-think the whole "I'm good and Voldemort is all bad". Of course Hermione will put him back on the right path. I think this might have something to do with the circumstances of Voldemort's birth.

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Eric Bailey - Jan 15, 2005 2:11 am (#37 of 80)

Another thing...

Buffy had to grow over the course of the series from student to teacher, mentor, and leader. Harry has begun doing the same thing with OotP.

Buffy had many powerful adversaries, while Harry has just the one, but the First Evil was the driving force behind everything Buffy faced, as Voldemort is to Harry. They've also both had to deal with the wrath of a corrupt Federal Government official that started off having a positive relationship with them, Buffy with Walsh, and Harry with Fudge, though Fudge was mainly incompetant while Walsh was genuinely nasty.

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Eric Bailey - Jan 26, 2005 3:06 pm (#38 of 80)

Well, most people didn't know about the Initiative, either. The only people in the Government who knew about it were a very few high officials. I do agree, though, that personality wise, Fudge was closer to Travers than Walsh. Voldemort will need to act directly against the Ministry at some point, as the First did against the Council, though I don't know if he can destroy the Ministry HQ the way the First did to the Council. Of course, the First also acted against the Initiative through Adam. We just didn't know that the First was behind that, at the time, though we really SHOULD have.

We also have the parallel of Snyder and Umbridge, who were pretty well male and female versions of each other.

My concern with Ron and Hermione isn't really how it would affect the group dynamic, but that, despite their attraction, they don't seem to be very compatable, and would work out about as well as Xander and Willow. Of course, the problem with W/X was more the circumstances than anything. With Percy, meanwhile, I've always pictured Season 3 Wesley. That's the image that came to mind when I read OotP, Wes with red hair. So, maybe there's hope for Percy, yet.

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Neville Longbottom - Jan 28, 2005 3:20 am (#39 of 80)


We also have the parallel of Snyder and Umbridge, who were pretty well male and female versions of each other.


Speaking of Umbridge, I think there is a counterpart for her in season 7, too. A small and unimportant woman, who desperatly wants power and therefore befriends those who have some power. And, once she has the power, starts to abuse it and uses sadistic methods towards those, who are inferior to her. Clearly that's Kennedy.

Edit: Except that for IMO totally unfathomable reasons, we are supposed to like Kennedy.
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Eric Bailey - Jan 30, 2005 5:49 am (#40 of 80)

Really, really disliked Kennedy, myself.

Another thing Buffy's and Harry's arch nemeses had in common: Dependancy on the hero. Voldemort required Harry to get his physical body back, so he could restart his world conquest scheme. The First, meanwhile, sought to become physical, then take the world, but she required Buffy to do so.

The First and Voldemort also made their enemies more powerful. Buffy was almost godlike by the end, able to get up and get back in the fight after being run through with a sword, due to all the things the First had put her through over the years. Harry would have been a relatively normal wizard if Voldemort hadn't attacked him, transferring some of his power to him in the process.

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Penny Lane. - Feb 1, 2005 2:53 pm (#41 of 80)

Edited by S.E. Jones Mar 6, 2005 9:17 pm
I don't really understand what you mean by The First Evil needed Buffy to become physical.

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Eric Bailey - Feb 2, 2005 12:24 am (#42 of 80)

Edited by S.E. Jones Mar 6, 2005 9:18 pm
As for the First needing Buffy, her whole ability to act to upset the balance between Light and Dark was because of Buffy's revival through CPR at the end of the first season. That caused another Slayer to be called, while Buffy was still alive and active. This screwed up the mystical energies and allowed the First to be able to act directly, and put her plan into motion. So, she needed to knock off all the Slayers, Potentials, Watchers, and anyone else helping out EXCEPT Buffy. As she put it to the Ubervamp, "Kill them all, except for her". The First's fatal flaw was that the one person who could beat her was the one person she couldn't afford to kill.

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Penny Lane. - Feb 5, 2005 2:49 pm (#43 of 80)

Edited by S.E. Jones Mar 6, 2005 9:18 pm
Does anyone else think that Neville may play Faith's part?

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Neville Longbottom - Feb 5, 2005 7:08 pm (#44 of 80)

Which part? Faith played about every part from heroine to villainess and in-between. If you mean that Neville will go evil, than no, I don't think so. That wouldn't make any sense, IMO. He wants to fight the Death Eaters not join them.

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Eric Bailey - Feb 6, 2005 3:26 am (#45 of 80)

Edited by S.E. Jones Mar 6, 2005 9:18 pm
We don't seem to have a Faith in the books, as her role was Buffy's dark mirror. Neville would be the closest, being someone who, under different circumstances, might have been Harry. But, I don't see anyone in the books who embodies Harry's darker tendencies.

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Penny Lane. - Feb 6, 2005 10:35 am (#46 of 80)

Well, Faith to me is someone who is just like Buffy, but with a dark side. Her intentions were good at first - she needed to do her job, do it well, and enjoy it while she was doing it. Also, she had a different set of circumstances than Buffy - perhaps if Buffy were kept from her friends and family, she would have been just as wild. In the season 3 episode "The Wish", we see what could have happened to her, if she had never come to Sunnydale.

I think that perhaps Harry could play Faith - raised without a true loving family, estranged from his friends - there is a very good chance of him becoming slightly "evil",but still in the end he could be redeemed. I think that it already sort of happened - Harry became all dark and angsty in OoP, and in GoF, he indirectly lead to the death of a fellow wizard. The thing to remember though, that Faith went on a crazy killing spree, and I don't see Harry doing that. I do, however, think that Harry will be more balanced by the middle of book 7.

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GryffEndora - Feb 15, 2005 2:39 pm (#47 of 80)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Is it possible that Faith's counterpart is (dare I say it) Wormtail? He was good, he was a marauder, but he let his fear overwhelm him, then he turned, caused the death of Lily & James, and maybe he will redeem himself before the end?

I also think Angel's counterpart might be Sirius. Angel taught Buffy a great deal, he made her stronger, but there was a time when she had to kill him, he came back from hell, helped her learn and grow then he left because it wasn't meant to be. Sirius came in as someone who had escaped the hell of Azkaban, Harry thought he was evil and had to be killed, then Harry learned the truth. Sirius taught Harry a lot but in the end he had to go because it wasn't meant to be.

I'm wondering if Ms. Calendar has a counterpart? Snape? Loved Giles but destroyed Angel, Snape is loyal to Dumbledore but despised Sirius.

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Eric Bailey - Feb 17, 2005 5:03 am (#48 of 80)

Harry doesn't have any fellow students who serve as his dark mirror the way Faith did Buffy. The nearest to a dark mirror Harry is is Voldemort. That said, some characters do have mirrors. Bellatrix is Tonks's dark mirror (Or, since Bella's older, maybe Tonks is her light mirror?). Hermione and Luna mirror each other.

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Penny Lane. - Feb 18, 2005 12:24 pm (#49 of 80)

Ms Calandar didn't really destroy Angel though. She loved Giles, yes, but she was also loyal to her people, who cursed Angel. Angel's curse was a blessing though, which could be similar to something still to come in the Potterdom.

Jenny Calandar was supposed to keep the curse in place so that her people would be avenged. By not sharing what she knew about the curse with the scooby gang she inadvertantly destroyed him, but I wouldn't blame her for it. She was torn between two loyaltys. Although, it could be argued that if she had told the Scoobies what she knew, events could have been stopped and everyone would have won.

I still don't think that she destroyed Angel - Remember, she was trying to put the curse back when he came and killed her. Poetic Justic, I would imagine.

If it turns out that Snape is like Jenny, then what is he hiding that we need to know?

OR - could it be that Harry's information about the prophecy could lead to his down fall? Harry should share what he knows with his friends and family, and especially Neville. People often act in what they think is everyone's best interest, but it's really not.

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Muggle Doctor - Mar 6, 2005 10:21 pm (#50 of 80)

Edited by S.E. Jones Mar 6, 2005 9:21 pm
Extreme trivia: E.E. Smith's "Lensmen"

Who has read these magnificent relics of early sci-fi?

Here we sort the humans, Rigellians, Palainians and Velantians into the four Houses.

Humans: to Gryffindor. "He didn't stop to think about whether he should've gone in. Lensmen always went in."

Palainians: to Slytherin. The self-confessed most selfish race in the galaxy. Always operating by stealth, sneakily, at minimum risk to themselves. If these aren't Slytherin traits, what are?

Rigellians: to Hufflepuff. "They were just Rigellians, doing their few hours of labour a week for the common good." Fits what I've seen elsewhere about Hufflepuffs being a tribe that pulls together.

Velantians: sort of by default to Ravenclaw. However, only three races are specifically mentioned as having developed screens against telepathy: the Arisians, the Eddorians and the Velantians. Perhaps the Ploorans, but we could argue that they got it from Eddore - in any case, the Ploorans are 3rd-level thinkers and the Velantians are not, so they would have to have had extra intellectual 'nous' to get it right.

Sorry, dreadfully OT for virtually anything except the Sorting Hat, but it popped into my mind last night and I felt I had to get it across.
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Comparing HP to Other Works Empty Comparing HP to Other Works (Post 51 to 80)

Post  Elanor Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:28 am

zelmia - Mar 6, 2005 9:50 pm (#51 of 80)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
There are far too many comparisons in an 'archetypal' story - the Star Wars saga among them - to mention.

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S.E. Jones - Mar 6, 2005 10:24 pm (#52 of 80)

Let it snow!
Okay, all fixed. Try to keep the discussion centered on HP, no matter what the other work is you are discussing....

Thanks!

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Diagon Nilly - Mar 7, 2005 8:39 am (#53 of 80)

Wuxia and Harry Potter

I don't know if this goes here, but I'm a fan of Wuxia cinema like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" and I also love to speculate about cultural and anthropological differences in magic across the globe. The thing about Wuxia that I aways get a kick out of is wondering how close this would be to traditional Asian magic in the Harry Potterverse. I always picture Asian wizards taking a more Buddhist approach of concentration, meditation, and mental & physical harmony.

Anyway, I have no real point here. I just like to think of Asian wizards in a wuxia-like fashion.

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Rosie - Mar 10, 2005 3:34 am (#54 of 80)

I was talking to my husband yesterday about Blakes Seven when a crazy idea came into my head. Snape is a lot like Avon, a bad guy on the side of the good guys! This does not bold well for Harry and friends, as Avon betrayed the Seven at the end and was only on the side of good at the time because he hated the bad guy (or is that girl) more.

Has anyone else got any ideas on Harry Potter/Blakes Seven parallels?

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Penny Lane. - Mar 14, 2005 2:46 pm (#55 of 80)

I was watching a rerun of "Angel" and saw an episode about a group who wanted to knock out all humans and human/demon "half-breeds". While it did remind me of the Judge (The Smurf demon from Season Two), it was different in the way that this group was more like Death Eaters (actively engaged in torture and mayhem), and how a certain member of the ... does angel's sidekicks have a cool name like the Scoobies or the Podsquad? Anyway, how one of them had to sacrifice themselves to save a group of people, and I thought of Buffy/Harry. Angel was willing to do it, to save his friends and the people he swore to protect, but his friend wouldn't let him do it. Angel needed to be alive, not just because the show was named after him, but because he had the ability to save more people by living. Doyle's time had come. Of course, Angel tried to do it, but Doyle knocked him out first.

My point was simply that I could see Ron doing this in the future. Sacrificing himself to save Harry, because Harry has the ablity to go on and save the world. I think that Ron might be in a position right now where he doesn't know exactly where he stands - I alluded to this on the HBP thread. Ron, much like Xander in BtVS, and Wesley in Angel, is the slightly annoying (IMHO) sidekick who makes jokes and "sees" things. While not possesing any of the talents that his friends have, such as magic or slayer strength, his character is noble, gallant, and brave. He doesn't do things because he is destined to, he does them because he wants to. At the end of Buffy, Xander had every reason to turn on Buffy, and no one would have blambed him for it. Yet he still trusted her - why?

In Angel, there is the slight issue of Doyle or Wesley. Both of them have similairitys to Ron - I can see Ron acting like Doyle in "Hero" or Wesley in... that episode where he gets shot. Um, anyway, Both characters essentially have a similar role, bringing knowledge to the group, one through visions, the other through books.

Ron has many reasons to give up on Harry. Harry has been rude, secretive, and above all, reckless. He has lead his friends into mortal danger several times. Yet Ron still sticks with Harry. I am more and more convinced that Ron will sacrifce himself or part of himself for Harry - but the only way he will do this is if he knows something about The Prophecy. (insert the DummDuhDumm here) Wink

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The Great Abbycadabra - Mar 27, 2005 2:28 am (#56 of 80)

Crocs Rule!
Ooh, this is such a great thread. I just couldn't keep myself away! I like that you brought up Angel, Penny. I see a big, glaring similarity in that series and HP. Remember Lindsey and his "evil hand"? Heehee. In essence, he lost his hand for Wolfram & Hart, much like how Pettigrew lost his hand for Voldie.

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Ponine - Mar 27, 2005 4:41 am (#57 of 80)

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Hi Penny!!! ***waves***uhm... Wesley gets shot!?!?!?!?!? Pretending I never heard that, I hope you are wrong about Ron pulling a Doyle, although I can totally see it happening. This would go nicely with Ron's efforts in the chess game as well, but as I really really adore Ron, I hope and pray he will make it through books seven in one, living piece. I also think that in the season that I am watching, Buffy goes through a lot of existential stuff, (having just been raised from the dead) and she feels incredibly alone. I Buffy and Harry are struck be the same loneliness and isolation that comes with their experiences and the weight of their predestined tasks on their shoulders. I really feel bad for them, with so much responsibility and so alone, even when in the company of their friends.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 2, 2005 11:07 am (#58 of 80)

Let it snow!
On a previous, now deleted (as far as I can tell), thread about myth and legend in the HP series, we got onto the topic of classic literary elements present in legend and their parallels in HP. For instance, the questing knight in Arthurian tales being tempted with some dream like and static world where he can escape from reality which the knight must resist in order to show his true nobility and return to his duty (whew, that was long). We compared this to Harry and the Mirror of Erised where he was tempted to stay looking at what might have been, what he truly wanted, but inevitably must resist looking for to return to his life. For the sake of prediction, and curiousity, I wonder how often are such devises repeated within a single story story?

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Her-melanie - Apr 6, 2005 5:46 am (#59 of 80)

"Did he say you look like a pig that's been taught to walk on its hind legs? 'Cause that's not cheek, Dud, that's true."
I wasn't sure where else to post this, so I will do it here. I read alot of Agatha Christie, and the Potter series always reminds me of Christie's mystery novels in their construction. They are not strictly mystery novels like Christie's are, but so far each one has generally had a mystery that HRH are trying to figure out, and the culmination is generally a surprise. Also, there are clues throughout for those astute enough to find them. Anyway, without going into a long analysis, they remind me of each other. I was rereading a very good Christie novel, 'TOWARD ZERO', and was struck by the number of Potter similarities in this particular book. The main character's name is Nevile Strange [Neville Longbottom, Bellatrix LeStrange??], there is a detective (or lawyer, I forget which) named Trelawny who is described as having "seeing eyes" or something [Sybill Trelawney], part of the solution of the mystery has to do with the Superintendant seeing a suspect look at him through another person's eyes [Harry having Lily's eyes], and last but not least, someone recognizes the murderer from childhood by a distinguishing physical peculiarity, or a SCAR! Now I know some of these are probably stretching it a bit, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that clues to HP could lie hidden in other literary works, ESPECIALLY British ones. I suspect, though, that it's just me being Potter obsessed and reading Harry into everything. Does anyone else do that?

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GryffEndora - Apr 6, 2005 5:22 pm (#60 of 80)

Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
While reading a post #1482 by Lina over on the Albus Dumbledore thread "... this might be the reason why Voldemort fears DD more then anybody else. I think it has something to do with the ancient magic. And it proves that with all the transformations that he did, there has something left from the old Tom Riddle since they recognized him. ..."

I noticed a connection between Voldemort and Naraku form the Anime show/books Inuyasha. (I have not read the books I only get to see the story as the new episodes unfold on Cartoon Network's [Adult Swim].) A quick run down of a couple of characters (most of the action takes place in Feudal Era Japan): Inuyasha is a half demon who fights for good, Kagome is a present day girl who is a reincarnated priestess, Kikyo is the Feudal Era priestess Kagome is reincarnated from & Naraku is the "most evil" demon who was once a man (Onigumo) then through magic and dark prayer he became the demon (Naraku), or actually he took hundreds of demons into himself and recreated himself as a demon. Naraku is constantly remaking himself taking in new demons and rejecting parts of himself that are no longer useful. Naraku was driven to become what he is because he wanted to possess the good priestess Kikyo. After his transformation Kikyo was killed. 50 years later a dark priestess partially resurrected Kikyo and she, now the undead, roams Feudal Era Japan. Onigumo inside Naraku is still drawn to Kikyo. Naraku decides to cast out Onigumo so he can become perfect but his plan fails and in the end he must retain this shred of humanity.

Here is the connection I made, thanks to Lina's post. Inuyasha & Naraku are both half-demons. Harry and LV are both Half-bloods. LV tries to reject Tom Riddle but, like Naraku, he can never fully divest himself of this last remaining piece of who he was born and what he once was. We see this when DD calls him Tom and even when Harry tells the DEs that LV is a half-blood too. And when LV re-makes himself he has to resort to being human with the help of Harry Potter and his worthless muggle Father.

Thoughts?

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Neville Longbottom - Apr 7, 2005 1:11 pm (#61 of 80)

Her-melanie, JKR definitely has read at least some Christie novels. There was once a picture with JKR and there were definitely Christie books on the table (can't remember which, one, though).

But about the name similarities: We shouldn't forget how many books Agatha Christie wrote. She probably used many names. Other Harry Potter names in Christie books I can remember are Hermione (Lytten-Gore, "Three Act Tragedy"), Ginevra "Ginny" (Boynton, "Appointment with Death"), Arthur (Hastings, several books) and there are probably a lot more (for sure there is a George somewhere, too). What I meant to say is, that it would be very hard for JKR not to use a name already used by Agatha Christie. Especially because most of them are not uncommon names in Britain.

That said, in one of the books "Murder at the Vicarage", there's a female character named Mrs Lestrange. And she looks pretty much the same as Bellatrix. Don't know if this was by accident, or if that was were JKR go our Bellatrix from. (Although I might add that the character in the AC book is much less vile and insane, than Bellatrix).

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Her-melanie - Apr 9, 2005 11:11 am (#62 of 80)

"Did he say you look like a pig that's been taught to walk on its hind legs? 'Cause that's not cheek, Dud, that's true."
Thanks Neville, and it is a fair point that it is probably just random. BUT this one stood out to me because of the number of similarities. I grant you, it's improbable. Anyway, I thought of something else too. The title 'TOWARDS ZERO' could be a clue about Arithmancy or Alchemy. I don't know in what way, but I'm sure there are many on the Forum that could come up with something! Wink

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Muggle Doctor - May 22, 2005 8:51 pm (#63 of 80)

I think that there are bound to be some name-use crossovers between Christie and Rowling, given that they are both using the same old-fashioned pool of names to draw from.

My real point, though, was HP vs. Star Wars. Plenty of comparisons have been made, and more now will be made as people see the last SW film and are aware of the whole story cycle, and as the sixth HP book comes out, yielding more knowledge in that direction also.

Both these story cycles are claimants to the title of pre-eminent popular mythology of the late 20th/early 21st Century. {I do not count Lord of the Rings because that is not, by and large, accessible to a large popular audience (the films notwithstanding, because they do not include, by a wide margin, everything in the books).}

Both SW and HP deal with themes of heroism, the fight against evil and the fact that it doesn't always come down to a straight battle (Luke's victory was dependent upon his redemption of his father's soul, even if the destruction of the Death Star would have solved the Sith problem). Less evident in HP is the theme of the flawed hero, making decisions he believes are correct only for them to lead him into disaster - there is no Greater Villain tempting Voldemort here as Anakin was tempted; Voldemort is the uber-villain of the piece. Harry has made mistakes, true, and one of them has been fatal (to Sirius), but they have not in themselves been evil choices, only poor ones.

There are parallels, but the parallels are not perfect.

Harry, our hero, knows little or nothing of his parents initially. He is finding out more, and some of what he finds out horrifies him, but unlike Luke, there is no sudden moment in which he realises that his father is the epitome of "horrible".

Like Luke in "Return of the Jedi", Harry is faced with confronting an enemy he is not necessarily keen to destroy - it is very clear that the fact that it is he who is fated to kill Voldemort disturbs him; he can't shove the job onto anyone else, any more than Obi-Wan's ghost could return to take Vader on, but he doesn't want to kill.

Unlike Luke, who felt at the end that he could turn his back on Vader (who still had one good hand, and access to Luke's discarded lightsabre), Harry will not feel that he could turn his back on, say, Wormtail. Wormtail has been proven as treacherous, both by his actions at the end of PoA (escaping) and his follow-on in the graveyard, and Harry will not trust him.

We know that Harry is an only child; there is no secret sister, and any attempt to conceal Harry has simply been limited to giving him a home where he is shielded from harm.

One of the main themes IS similar, and that is whether it is permissible to do any evil, even a small one, in order to accomplish good. Voldemort is beyond turning Harry now; he simply wants him dead, so we are not going to have any climactic "Death Star Throne Room" scenes where Harry must choose between good and evil. We do, however, have Harry's use of the Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix as a foreshadowing of the path he might take. I think we can excuse this act; he was truly out of control and insane with grief and rage by this time, and not responsible for his actions (similar to Anakin in "Attack of the Clones" when he crossed the line between killing Tusken warriors in battle and murdering their noncombatant families), but Anakin then went on to commit worse acts of rashness and outright disobedience before his true downfall. Anakin appears to have covered himself with little but glory in the space between Episodes II and III, proving that he was at heart best suited for battle, with a clear goal in mind and no complicated moral decisions to be made; disaster followed when they were forced on him. We don't know which way Harry is going to swing yet; that's why Star Wars buffs like me will be reading the sixth HP book with interest.

Ultimately, the same moral choices face the heroes in both myths; is it possible to redeem the enemy, or necessary to destroy him? Having made one choice or the other, what are the consequences if you are wrong, and are you prepared to take them on yourself? If Luke had destroyed Vader, he might have been at Palpatine's mercy, or he might not have - we will never know, but the wrong call here would have been disastrous.

If Harry turns himself into a merciless avenger to cut his way through Voldemort's followers, in order to destroy Voldemort, will he lack 'that power which Voldemort lacks and you have in such abundance' (i.e. love), which may be the only thing that wins the final battle for him? Or will he be willing (finally) to accept that his friends have to take some of the risks, which include dying for him, and that many of them may have to suffer for the sake of Harry?

Both Harry and Anakin have a 'saving people thing' - it has led both to drastic errors, and with the Ep.III release date past, I feel safe in revealing the broad hint that it is his (mistaken and horribly mishandled) desire to save two people he loves that eventually leads Anakin to his downfall. Likewise, I think Harry may be faced with the godawful choice of letting someone he loves (potentially Dumbledore, or one of his two most - platonically - beloved friends) die or risking the loss of everything. Except with Harry, there's no hidden, talented offspring ready to pick up the pieces.

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Good Evans - May 23, 2005 1:46 pm (#64 of 80)

Practically perfect in every way
I was watching labyrinth yesterday - Jim Henson made fantasy in 1980's starring David Bowie as king of the Goblins and Jennifer Connolly as the heroine. There wasn't a huge amount of similarity but I did comment to my hubby that JKR must have been familiar with this as she seems to have been influenced (maybe subconciously) with many names and ideas - just little things, but it seemed uncanny. I will list what we noticed and see if you agree:

goblins and small fairy's - well ok goblins and fairy's are fairly common for fantasy films/ books

character named - Hoggle - referred to as hogwart at one point

big somewhat dim character called Ludo

A talking hat

moving staircases

altering time to accommodate the plot

A beautiful Snowy Owl

I can't think of anything else - but these did strike us as a bit too co incidental that they should all be there - having said that I am not suggesting she has based Harry on labyrinth, the story is very different, but I think this film may have given her some inspiration.

Incidentally the film ends with a final showdown between just the heroine and the Goblin King - she must face him alone as this is "how it is done" - sounds like the progression to the end chamber in PS/ SS. Or maybe clue to the final showdown between HP and LV at the end of book 7?

Just some observations.

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Eponine - May 23, 2005 3:28 pm (#65 of 80)

There's also the little matter of a big giant maze being involved.

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Good Evans - May 25, 2005 10:23 am (#66 of 80)

Practically perfect in every way
I can't beleive I forgot to add that Eponine - duh - me !!

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Michael Franz - May 29, 2005 12:17 pm (#67 of 80)

Also, in Labyrinth, fairies are just little biting insects that Hoggle sprays with insecticide. HP Doxies are the same thing.

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VeronikaG - Jun 23, 2005 7:18 am (#68 of 80)

I'm surprised to see that nobody has mentioned "Wheel of Time". In my humble opinion that series resembles HP more than LotR does.

To those of you who have no idea what WoT is, it's a fantasy series in classic style. 10 books have been published so far, the 11th is coming in October or November. All books are at least the size of GoF!

If any of you are reading the series, spoilers may occur. Here we go:

Both Harry and Rand, the WoT hero, were predicted to be born as saviours. They have a predestined path to travel. Both have unusually strong powers.

Their unusual powers can be dangerous for both of them. They both find themselves more protected and controlled than they like to be, but the elders, who know how important they are, put their happiness aside to make sure they are safe.

Both of them are completely baffled to find out they are not just ordinary boys, though there have always been signs they are not.

They are both orphans, though Rand has been raised by a loving father. The boys physical appearance,especially eye color, hints that there is something unusual in their heritage. They both discover by bits and pieces who their real parents were.

Some people in Rand's village are suspicious of Rand because of his eye color (grey eyes are unusual). They think he's an Aiel, a people believed to be extremely savage and ruthless. Being an Aiel is about as popular as being a wizard in Privet drive.

Both are taken away from their homes by messengers sent to collect them to fulfill their destinies.

In HP there are dementors. We all know what they are like. In WoT there are 1: myrdraal, tall man-like creatures in black cloaks. The cloaks don't move even in strong wind. The myrdraal have no eyes (neither do dementors), but they see very well, and when they look at someone, that person is filled with fear so strong he can barely think. 2: dragkhars, a sinister creature that sucks souls out of their victims. I believe this is indeed called the dragkhars's kiss. If the victim is rescued before all life is drained, they will be left as an empty shell, much like a dementor victim.

Those who are able to channel (use the power) are sent away to learn to do so properly. The school in WoT is called the White Tower, and is as strong in influence as Hogwarts is in the wizarding world. The classes taught resembles Hogwarts classes a bit. They learn to levitate things and such.

Rand's friend Mat resembles Ron in the way that he keeps having magical accidents. Some of them are only his own fault. Mat's abilities to lead combat reminds me of Ron's chess play in PS. Mat's had an unpleasant experience with a cursed dagger that has given him weird side-effects. He now remembers earlier lives and can draw knowledge from them when needed. It will be interesting to see if Ron's brain room-incident and exploding Jupiter has had a similar effect. Both Mat and Ron are preoccupied with getting money.

Mat's general behaviour is very Marauder-like. He's a prankster who can match up to Fred and George.

Rand's other friend, Perrin, is half wolf mentally. Like Lupin, he needs to fight not to turn completely into this wolf.

There is an old man that resembles Dumbledore, though he doesn't have any powers except great inside knowledge of obscure social structures.

In HP 13 Death Eaters, Voldies people, escape from Azkaban. In WoT 13 legendary eveil people, the Forsaken, escape from an even more secure prison. One of them makes me think of Bellatrix.

There is a punishment in WoT that is described very much like the Crucatious curse.

There is also an unforgavible, the balefire. Balefire changes history, and should not be used unless it's an absolute emergency. And preferably not even then. This resembles the time turner-dilemma in HP.

There are ways of travelling that very much resembles apperating.

And now the biggie: (SPOILER) There is a scene that resembles Sirius' death so strongly that WoT fans claim Rowling copied it from there. In this scene a person falls through something that looks like a doorway, and disappears. The person who resembles Bellatrix is to blame for this. From earlier in the story we know there are some beings behind the door, like the voices in the arch. I don't think this person is dead however. This person was Rand's protector, not in the same way Sirius was to harry, but still a protector, and the loss of this person makes Rand feel guilty. This apparent death happens during (or right before) a rescue mission to save someone they think is being held captured by an evil person, but again the hostage isn't there. Strangely enough this happens at the end of the fifth book.

I searched this thread to see if Wheel of Time had been mentioned earlier. If it has, I apologize. And just to prove I didn't make this up: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Here is a link.

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Paulus Maximus - Jun 26, 2005 2:37 pm (#69 of 80)

Another thing that I think might have been inspired by Robert Jordan is Veritaserum. Although there is no equivalent "truth potion" in the Wheel of Time series, all Aes Sedai (equivalent to wizards) are oath-bound "to speak no word that is not true" and can no more deliberately lie than stop breathing...

Of course, there is a catch, in that Aes Sedai who believe a lie can tell it as if it were the truth... and Fudge, at least, seems to think the same about Veritaserum...

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Denise P. - Jun 26, 2005 3:45 pm (#70 of 80)

Ravenclaw Pony
Ah, they can't lie but they can certainly dance around half truths and ommitting things Smile

Veronika, do you have a date on the next book? Last time I looked, I could not find it. I have been rereading WoT while waiting for HBP. (Psst...I don't think Rand's protector is dead either!)

13 is a powerful number in WoT just like in the HP series. Not only is it the number of the Forsaken (DE, if you will), there also has to be 13 Aes Sedai to control a man with the power to channel.

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Solitaire - Jun 26, 2005 6:11 pm (#71 of 80)

According to Amazon.com, The Wheel of Fire, Book 5: The Fires of Heaven, was published October 15, 1994.

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Denise P. - Jun 26, 2005 6:13 pm (#72 of 80)

Ravenclaw Pony
I looked, Amazon now lists Book #11 with an October release date. Yay!!

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VeronikaG - Jun 29, 2005 12:32 pm (#73 of 80)

Frankly, I was a bir surprised when I found out how long RJ has been writing on this series. Concidering that they are all bigger than Gof, it's not so strange, but compared to HP, where each book covers an entire year each Wot book only covers a time span between a few weeks to a couple of months. So far I think the total 10 released books cover slightly more than 2 years, and it has taken almost 18 years to write it! It's because we get to see things from so many different peoples perspective, I think. Imagine how thick the HP books would have been if we saw thing from Ron's and hermione's point of view too.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 2, 2005 9:46 am (#74 of 80)

There is an aspect of Fillius Flitwick's character that reminds me of Ellis Peter's Brother Cadfael. Brother Cadfael was in his youth a crusader and warrior and as such was probably experienced as a duelist at a certain point in his life Brother Cadfael sought a change and set aside the weapons of war for the seclusion and peace of an abbey. I see hints of a similar sort of change in Flitwick's attitude. The exchange with Umbridge where Flitwick asserts that he was unsure if he had the authority and his quiet opposition seems to contrast with the image of him as a youth that I have I imagine him as being rather intense youth, demanding perfection of himself and training himself until he was satisfied.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 13, 2005 2:57 am (#75 of 80)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 13, 2005 3:00 am
Veronika, very nice job describing the similarities between HP and WoT. I just got done reading the Wheel of Time (Books 1-10 at least) and then I re-read the HP series immedeatly after. The similarities never hit me until I read your post. Many are just part of the classical fantasy archetype, but some are really interesting similarities.

As for the differences in the length of the series, you got it almost exactly right. WoT is so long because there are so many characters and so many points of view. There are 1700+ characters in the WoT through the first 9 books. There are 94 characters who have some part of the story told through their point-of-view through the first 8 books. That is going to fluff some pages. I cannot imagine HP if we were seeing things not only from Ron and Hermione's point of view, but some random student in Durmstrang. The action is spread out as well. So in seeing those different POV's we are re-treading the same time frame. So it is 2 years, but we have lived those 2 years a dozen times. Also, Jordan is way too descriptive. He spends so much time describing food, drinks and clothing. Cut all that superfluous descriptions out, the books would be 1/2 of their length. Heck, you could lose a couple hundred pages if you just cut out the sniffing, skirt flattening and braid tugging (WoT fans will no what I mean).

You might be interested in this website: Wheel of Time FAQ. It has nothing to do with the connections to HP. However it might give you some things to think about with the WoT series. Your idea of where Mat got his memories from is different than theirs (and mine from before I even saw this site). Also they very nicely explain why that character whose death was similar to Sirius' will definitely be back. It also has good discussion about numerous other WoT mysteries and questions. I wouldn't suggest going to this site unless you have read the 10 main novels though. There are definite spoilers.

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VeronikaG - Aug 1, 2005 8:34 am (#76 of 80)

I'm only on book 6, so I have to tread carefully around WoT sites for 4,5 books more.

And YES, there are way too many descriptions. But with 1700 characters who keep returning on a regular basis having a strong mental image of what they look like actually helps keeping them apart. Except many characters are being described as looking very similar... I mean almost all Aiels have facial scars, to give an example.

And yes, Wandless, you're right. I messed up when I wrote about Mat. The memory thing started after the dagger episode, but they didn't hit full effect until he walked through the second doorway in Rhuidean. Though the foxes nearly killed him, they gave him a few nice gifts.

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greyeyesathene - Aug 4, 2005 10:02 pm (#77 of 80)

Anybody remember the Disney movie "The Sword in the Stone"? Now I know HP has been compared endlessly to King Author, but I think this particular interpitation of the classic legend has a tone and style that is very similar to the first few books(of Harry Potter). The Merlin in this movie is very much like Dumbledore; very powerful, eccentric, disappears so the hero can fulfil his destiny, appears to be omniscient. Wart also bears an uncanny resemblance to Harry, skinny lad around 11 who is tormented by his relatives(Sir Ector and Kay are *so* the Dursleys), who is not happy with his destiny(becoming king)yet does what needs to be done, who respects his mentor(Merlin) ultimately. Archmedes...well, there isn't anyone in particular that he reminds me of(besides Snape, in some instances) but just the fact that he is an magically owl is brilliant. OH, and let's not forget the wizard duel! That's exactly what the battle between Madam Mim and Merlin was called in the movie...a 'wizard's duel'...

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chunkychickpeas - Oct 11, 2005 8:52 am (#78 of 80)

I rented The Labrynth today and couldn't help noticing some coincidences such as:

Sarah mistakenly calls Hoggle 'Hogwart' when she first meets him.

The Yeti that she encounters is named 'Ludo'

Jereth transfigures into an owl.

I don't know. Maybe this has even been addressed already. I was just wondering if anyone knew if JK used this film as a reference for some of the names and whatnot.

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haymoni - Oct 11, 2005 9:48 am (#79 of 80)

greyeyes - funny you should mention that!

I was trying to get my daughter to watch "The Sword In The Stone" this weekend. I kept telling her that Merlin was like Dumbledore.

She didn't buy it. She knows the real thing when she sees it!

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CatherineHermiona - Oct 12, 2005 10:29 am (#80 of 80)

My drawing... LOL
I could compare Laura Leander series to Harry Potter series.

Firstly characters: Laura-Harry, Lukas-Hermione, Kaja-Ron, Duke Borbon-Lord Voldemort, Elyson-Dumbledore, Prof. Morgesten-Prof. McGonagal.

And things that are happening are pretty similar.

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