Favorite Quotes Used to Contrast That JKR Uses and Re-uses

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Favorite Quotes Used to Contrast That JKR Uses and Re-uses

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:33 am

Favorite Quotes Used to Contrast That JKR Uses and Re-uses

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "New Discussions Threads Not Approved or Placed" folder of the WC forum. Elanor

Mrs. Sirius - Jun 12, 2008 8:29 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jun 19, 2008 6:04 pm
Good Evans posted this on the -Favorite sayings by Hermione- poll thread: "

I was too late with this one - I would have voted G and D - but my favorite - "always the tone of surprise" wasn't there - has to be my favorite, as of course it is said back to her later!!!

sorry - I know polling has ended, but I am kicking myself that I missed this one.

Since the poll was closed I could not respond, I am starting this thread hoping to get a good list of great quotes that JKR uses over again but from the lips of an opposing character. Here Hermione uses the above line to Ron in HBP (or maybe that was GOF), I believe then Ron says it in DH to Hermione at the wedding.

The corresponding contrast also said by Ron-Hermione, is (paraphrasing)

Hermione: "a fire, yes, but I don't have matches"

Ron: "Matches?" are your a witch or what? in PS/SS.

Then in DH Ron: "oh if we just had Crookshanks here"

Hermione: "Crookshanks? Are you a wizard??"

There have been many other contrasts or comparisons sometimes descriptive where she'll use the contrast. Dudley<>Malfoy, Molly>
I would love to see other that you see.

There so very broad ones like Sirius is unwavering in his loyalty to James and Severus is unwavering in love of Lily. But I like the very specific contrasts.
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Favorite Quotes Used to Contrast That JKR Uses and Re-uses (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:34 am

PeskyPixie - Jun 12, 2008 10:48 am (#1 of 70)
I don't know if these apply to what you're asking for, but they really stuck out to me. The last two (in the beginning and end of HBP, respectively) influenced my beliefs of Snape's allegiance.

1. a)Dumbledore to Harry: "I am not worried, Harry, I am with you." (HBP)

b)Dumbledore to Snape: "I am fortunate, extremely fortunate, that I have you, Severus." (DH pensieve memory)

2. a)Snape (to Death Eaters regarding Dumbledore's injured hand): "He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were." (early HBP)

b) Dumbledore (to Death Eaters regarding his altered state): "Oh, weaker resistance, slower reflexes ..." (late HBP)

- - - - - - - - - -
Julia H. - Jun 12, 2008 10:59 am (#2 of 70)

Great catches!

- - - - - - - - - -
Soul Search - Jun 12, 2008 12:45 pm (#3 of 70)

Yes, great catches!

I like this topic and the concept that JKR is telling us something via the use of similar expressions and wording. While some examples have been previously cited, I don't think I have seen the concept expressed before.

I guess one question may always be are the similar expressions intended or just accidental because the author tends to use the same words and expressions.

That said, I can't come up with any off hand, but will keep the idea in mind as I re-read. Might be difficult to identify too many more, since they may not be close enough in the text to be easily recognized. Sounds like a real challenge for us Potter fanatics.

- - - - - - - - - -
Julia H. - Jun 12, 2008 2:24 pm (#4 of 70)

In PoA, Lupin about Sirius:

Yes, I knew him. Or I thought I did.

Sirius is believed to be a murderer.

In HBP, Slughorn about Snape:

Snape! I taught him! I thought I knew him!

Snape is believed to be a murderer.

In fact, neither is a murderer.

Another one, which has often been pointed out (HBP):

Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth...

Snape gazed at Dumbledore and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

It is a hint that both hate doing what they are being forced to do.

Sounds like a real challenge for us Potter fanatics. (Soul Search)

LOL, it does!

- - - - - - - - - -
PeskyPixie - Jun 12, 2008 2:31 pm (#5 of 70)

Ooh, great finds, Julia! You know, Slughorn's, "I taught him! I thought I knew him!" stuck out as if I'd heard it somewhere ... and now you've pinpointed it! Good work. Ten points to your House. (If you happen to be in Gryffindor, take only five. )

And the similarity between the second two quotes is further reason for why I never gave up on Sev.

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Jun 12, 2008 6:33 pm (#6 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
1. a)Dumbledore to Harry: "I am not worried, Harry, I am with you." (HBP) -- Pesky Pixie

I like the companion quote you linked with this one, PP, but I was expecting the earlier quote from DD, when he and Harry were on their way to visit Slughorn, and Harry asked if it was safe to be out and about...DD says something like,"Don't worry, Harry, you are with me." When I later read the quote you listed (above) (from their trip home from the cave w/the locket), I was reminded of DD's quote, and thought it was extremely touching.

- - - - - - - - - -
PeskyPixie - Jun 12, 2008 6:36 pm (#7 of 70)

Yeah, that one is probably the real companion quote.

- - - - - - - - - -
Elanor - Jun 14, 2008 5:41 am (#8 of 70)

This thread is a wonderful idea!

Here are some other ones from the HBP:

Snape, Spinner's End Chapter:
"The Dark Lord's initial displeasure at my lateness vanished entirely, I assure, when I explained that I remained faithful, although Dumbledore thought I was his man."

Scrimgeour, in "A Very frosty Christmas" telling Harry:
"Dumbledore's man through and through, aren't you, Potter?"

Harry, in "A Sluggish Memory", telling Dumbledore:
"He [Scrimgeour] accused me of being 'Dumbledore's man through and through.'
"How very rude of him."
"I told him I was."

Harry to Scrimgeour, in "The White Tomb":
Scrimgeour: "I see you are -"
"Dumbledore's man through and through," said Harry. "That's right."

Just like Snape was.

- - - - - - - - - -
journeymom - Jun 14, 2008 5:22 pm (#9 of 70)

Perfect, Audrey!

- - - - - - - - - -
Julia H. - Jun 15, 2008 1:41 am (#10 of 70)

It is worth noting how JKR uses the words Dumbledore's man versus Voldemort's servant very consistently. In the final confrontation these words come back again as Harry reveals Snape's true allegiance: ...arranged the whole thing with the man you though was your servant. Almost immediately after that: Snape was Dumbledore's ... The same words in a different arrangement. In this quote, Harry acknowledges that Snape was also, like him, Dumbledore's man. When Snape tells Bellatrix Dumbledore "thought" Snape was his man (as quoted by Elanor above), the use of the word may be a slip of the tongue, perhaps, indicating how Snape really thinks or feels. (???)

- - - - - - - - - -
PeskyPixie - Jun 16, 2008 8:19 am (#11 of 70)

I had come up with something while I was half-asleep last night, and I made a mental not to not forget what it was. Guess what? I've forgotten!

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Jun 16, 2008 8:30 pm (#12 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Don't worry, P.P.,I'll send Neville's Rememberall along with the next owl.

- - - - - - - - - -
PeskyPixie - Jun 16, 2008 9:59 pm (#13 of 70)

Please do, freshwater.

- - - - - - - - - -
Julia H. - Jun 25, 2008 5:24 am (#14 of 70)

I think I'd leave, wouldn't you.

Malfoy to Harry in PS, about being sorted into Hufflepuff.

James to Snape in DH about being sorted into Slytherin.

Hm.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Jun 25, 2008 8:50 am (#15 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Good one Julia!!

Sirius' reaction to the murder of James and Lily was to run and seek revenge, Snapes reaction was to run and seek help and direction. The result was Sirius was isolated and sequestered and Snape was protected and sheltered.

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Jun 25, 2008 7:44 pm (#16 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Good one, Mrs. S....I wouldn't have thought to post that on this thread, but it's perfect...and well stated, too.

- - - - - - - - - -
PeskyPixie - Jun 25, 2008 8:37 pm (#17 of 70)

Yes, good one, Mrs. Sirius. I hadn't considered this angle before.

In PS/SS Hagrid says that there's no place safer than Gringotts, except perhaps Hogwarts. Well, guess where two of the horcruxes turn up? Hmmm, now I don't know whether this actually fits on this thread or not.

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Jun 25, 2008 10:19 pm (#18 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Well,P.P.,it did seem as though Harry's first and last direct encounters with LV ocurred at Hogwarts. As for the Gringott's / Hogwarts comparison....it seemed as though H/R/H were in greater danger of being killed while seeking the horcrux in the RoR at Hogwarts, than they were while infiltrating the high-security vaults in Gringott's.

- - - - - - - - - -
wynnleaf - Jun 27, 2008 9:39 am (#19 of 70)

Julia's mention of the similarity of the James and Draco quotes reminded me of this one -- not exactly a quote, but another similarity which I believe is intentional.

Peter Pettigrew, of smaller build, is the animagus rat who is part of James and Sirius' Marauder group, seen in pensieve memories to bully.

Dudley (like James, an only "pampered" child), is the head of a gang with a member named Piers (Peter) Polkiss, who is also small, I think it's "scrawny" as well as "rat-faced".

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Jul 6, 2008 11:03 pm (#20 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Sirius wanted to find James in Harry a bit too much - Julia

Interestingly, that's one thing that Sirius and Snape have in common. They both think that Harry is much more like James than he really is. Anna L. Black

This is post by Anna Black on the Sirius Black thread, which I think applies very well.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Jul 9, 2008 8:26 am (#21 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I am being absolutely shameless about using other people's research for this thread. But there is just so much out there and the re-read is such a perfect venue to find all of those. Here are a few quotes: #


..[cut]..."You dislike the name 'Tom'?"
"There are a lot of Toms," muttered Riddle....[cut]...
HBP,Ch13,"The Secret Riddle," p.274f US. #
..[cut]..."Their son -- he'd be about Dudley's age now, wouldn't he?"
"I suppose so," said Mrs. Dursley stiffly.
"What's his name again? Howard, isn't it?"
"Harry, nasty common name, if you ask me" s....[cut]... SS,Ch1,"The Boy Who Lived," p.274f US. tandaradei

Thank you tandaradei for all the citations.

I’ve found unusual similarity – Mr. Dursley & Mr. Weasley – aren’t the poor blokes afraid of their wives exploding? (I will try to find canon quotes for these)

Dumbledore is the leader of the Order, but puts more stock in those who are most devoted to his person rather than those most dedicated to the cause. He declares his trust in Hagrid, who will serve him without question, at the same time he deflects the astute questions of McGonnagall. Mrs Brisbee

Oh Mrs. B you get frighteningly close to the core here.

- - - - - - - - - -
PeskyPixie - Jul 13, 2008 6:01 pm (#22 of 70)

Not really a quote, but JKR compares Sirius being forced back into 12GP with how Harry would feel if he had to live in 4 Privet Drive as an adult. Well, it also applies to Snape spending his time away from Hogwarts at Spinners End. He's also got memories of Lily nearby, but I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing for someone in his situation.

- - - - - - - - - -
Julia H. - Jul 14, 2008 3:05 am (#23 of 70)

A bad thing, I guess. He cannot forget her and feels guilty enough to be loyal to her and to protect Harry. He needs to remember her of course, but on top of what he already feels, walking about the places of sad memories (wallowing in sad memories?) is not a healthy thing. But then he does the same at Hogwarts.

- - - - - - - - - -
rcs - Jul 14, 2008 3:38 am (#24 of 70)

"Not really a quote, but JKR compares Sirius being forced back into 12GP with how Harry would feel if he had to live in 4 Privet Drive as an adult. Well, it also applies to Snape spending his time away from Hogwarts at Spinners End. He's also got memories of Lily nearby, but I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing for someone in his situation." --PeskyPixie

Could we also include Dobby's return to Malfoy Manor (DH, Chap. 23) in this comparison?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Jul 24, 2008 7:14 am (#25 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Edited Jul 24, 2008 7:50 am
Harry also interrogates Ollivander in Deathly Hallows. I like the contrast between Harry's first meeting with Ollivander here, where he is greatly overwhelmed, and his meeting in Deathly Hallows where he completely dominates the conversation. There, Ollivander is completely overwhelmed by Harry.Soul Search

I am absolutely amazed at how many connections are made from the short visit to Ollivander's shop to other books, and especially to Deathly Hallows! Did JKR plan all that from the very start? SS

My opinion is yes!!! She had many of the tiny details and devices planned, so even when major plot lines don't work out many of her themes and threads were woven in right from the start. Like in knitting (I don't knit) you know what yarns and colors you want to use, you start with the colors and patterns you want, you may have to drop some threads, colors or stitches for some length of time but you pick them up later to complete you pattern (story). This may apply even if you have a whole section that doesn't work out properly and has to be ripped apart and started again. (It bugs me when people suggest most of these are a coincidence. )

Edit: Hey Pesky, (""**'''**"")we are on line together, do you ever use chat?)

- - - - - - - - - -
PeskyPixie - Jul 24, 2008 7:39 am (#26 of 70)

I have no doubt that JKR planned most of these things.

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Jul 24, 2008 7:51 am (#27 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I think that many people see authors sitting at a computer, typing out the story as it falls from their heads. They don't realize that --particularly in a multi-chapter story of any complexity-- the best writers may spend ten times as long planning, outlining, researching and revising, than they ever do writing.

I'd love it if --in the upcoming HP Encyclopedia, maybe-- JKR would reveal the process of how she planned the series. We know she began with the idea of a young boy learning that he was a wizard...but where did she go from there? Was it to Hogwarts? or the wizarding world in all it's wonderful complexity? or to the key characters Harry would meet? or to developing LV and his motivatons? I love to learn how it all unfurled and grew.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 2, 2008 9:56 pm (#28 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Going back some, Aunt Petunia says early on about Harry's first name "nasty common name". Both Harry and Voldemort, Tom, have common first names. One of Voldemort's first changes is to create for himself an exotic name.

In both the muggle world and the wizarding world, Harry's nemisis' have unusual first names, Dudley and Draco.

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Aug 3, 2008 7:30 am (#29 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
As for his first friends....'Ron' is not uncommon (in fact,none of the Weasley kid's names is unusual...at least, first names ...well, maybe 'Percy' is a bit out of date )...but 'Hermione' is quite unusual.

- - - - - - - - - -
rcs - Aug 3, 2008 10:14 am (#30 of 70)

(in fact,none of the Weasley kid's names is unusual...at least, first names ...well, maybe 'Percy' is a bit out of date) --freshwater

How about "Ginevra"? That's not exactly common, is it?

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Aug 9, 2008 4:36 pm (#31 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
That's true, of 'Ginevra'--I suppose I was thinking of 'Ginny'.

- - - - - - - - - -
rcs - Aug 10, 2008 12:03 am (#32 of 70)

"Ginny" is reasonably common (or at least used to be; not so much anymore), but almost always as a nickname for "Virginia," not "Ginevra." "inevra is a real name, by the way. Apparently, it's the Italian form of "Guinevere," which makes it roughly equivalent to English "Jennifer."

The fact that Ginevra is a form of Guinevere is important for another parallel, in that three of the nine Weasleys have Arthurian names: Arthur, Percy (Percival), and Ginny (Ginevra/Guinevere). I'm sure this is intentional.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 27, 2008 8:10 pm (#33 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
...[cut]... “Imagine being in Hufflepuff, I think I’d leave, wouldn’t you?”...[cut]... PS,Ch5,"Diagon Alley," p.77 US I believe this is Draco speaking.

...[cut]...“Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I’d leave, wouldn’t you?”...[cut]... DH,Ch33,"The Prince’s Tale," p.671 US This I think is James speaking. tandaradei

Thanks tandaradei

- - - - - - - - - -
mona amon - Nov 18, 2008 7:51 pm (#34 of 70)

I thought this would have been mentioned before, but I read through this thread and couldn't find it-

Harry's "Fight back, you coward-" contrasted with his "probably the bravest man I ever knew."

- - - - - - - - - -
Julia H. - Nov 18, 2008 11:13 pm (#35 of 70)

I think the reason why it has not been mentioned is that we have been collecting quotes that are repeated (maybe with variations) and not quotes that are direct opposites. But these quotes are worth collecting as well. They are certainly used to contrast.

Another one of these that I have already thought of but have not posted is not even a pair of quotes but a pair of situations. Snape's first words to Dumbledore are Don't kill me! and he is saying that on his knees, as his wand has flown out of his hand, while Dumbledore is standing over him with his wand in his hand. In the last scene between the living Dumbledore and Snape, Dumbledore is wandless slumped against the wall, Snape is standing with his wand in his hand, and Dumbledore's last words to Snape are Severus ... please ...., which in effect mean 'Severus, please, kill me'. So Snape's first words to Dumbledore (at the beginning of their cooperation) are contrasted with (the living) Dumbledore's last words to Snape.

- - - - - - - - - -
mona amon - Nov 19, 2008 1:57 am (#36 of 70)

Wow, great catch, Julia!

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Nov 19, 2008 6:37 am (#37 of 70)

Draco: "No one asked your opinion, you filthy little Mudblood," he spat.-- (CoS)

Snape: "I don't need help from a filthy little Mudblood like her!"-- (OotP)

- - - - - - - - - -
Julia H. - Nov 19, 2008 12:10 pm (#38 of 70)

Thanks, Mona!

GoF:

Hagrid: ... trusts people, he does. Gives 'em second chances...

Fake-Moody: He's a trusting man, isn't he? Believes in second chances.

- - - - - - - - - -
rcs - Nov 20, 2008 10:33 pm (#39 of 70)

Julia, I don't remember the context of that quote. Are both speakers talking about Dumbledore's trust in Snape when they make those remarks?

- - - - - - - - - -
Julia H. - Nov 20, 2008 10:57 pm (#40 of 70)

Hagrid is talking about Dumbledore giving him help and a second chance when he was expelled from Hogwarts as a kid. It is after the publication of Rita's article that reveals Hagrid's giant origin. The Trio and Dumbledore persuade Hagrid to stop hiding in shame. Dumbledore leaves and Hagrid pours his heart out to HRH. This scene is very close to the scene with Fake-Moody and Snape, in which they argue about Dumbledore's trust in Snape. I suspect the quotes are placed so close to each other on purpose. The reader has already found out how Hagrid became a game keeper with Dumbledore's help and that Dumbledore trusts Hagrid. This scene brings it up again and apparently prepares the reader for the information that Dumbledore has given Snape a second chance, too, and trusts him.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Feb 21, 2009 1:20 am (#41 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
..."Hermione!" Ron groaned..

This one is from Chamber of Secrets, and shows Rons distress when he learns that Hermione hasbeen petrified. I will have to search but I believe that JK uses this same line in POA or HBP again to show Rons feeelings towards Hermione.

- - - - - - - - - -
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 21, 2009 1:37 am (#42 of 70)

Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Yes! In HBP he's in the hospital wing after being poisoned -- but it was more like 'Er-my-nee'. Good one Mrs. S!

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Mar 10, 2009 8:27 am (#43 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
"Fawkes," said Harry thickly, "You were brilliant, Fawkes....If this is dying, thought Harry, it's not so bad. Even the pain was leaving him...COS pg 236 (Bloomsbury)

Harry seems to accept his inevitable death in COS just as he does in DH when he walks into the forest.

Harry understood at last that he was not suppose to survive....he rose and walked through the castle for the last time...into the ground DH p 691-691 Scholastic

- - - - - - - - - -
Ludicrous Patents Office - Mar 12, 2009 8:12 pm (#44 of 70)

I was just on Twitter. I checked to see if our favorite author is on it. There is a jkrowling twitter account that isn't used much. One of the links was to the article where Jo discusses her feelings of depression and suicidal thoughts. There is an acceptance of death in her writing. I know she has mentioned how the death of her mother impacted her. Her invention of the Thestrals as gentle creatures demonstrates this: "They're gentle things, there's nothing scary about them."

- - - - - - - - - -
Madam Pince - Mar 13, 2009 6:03 am (#45 of 70)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think that the acceptance of death is almost the over-riding theme of the series. It touches almost every single major character, with the exception of Hermione (and maybe I just can't think of hers.) We start with Lily accepting it in order to protect Harry; there's Sirius who taunts it with his recklessness; Dumbledore who is almost intrigued by it; Snape who follows in Lily's footsteps; and a whole host of characters who ignore it (accept it?) in the face of duty -- Mad-Eye Moody, Dobby, Fred, Lupin, Tonks. Then of course we have the only one who doesn't accept it, and he's the big bad evil guy.

- - - - - - - - - -
me and my shadow 813 - Mar 13, 2009 7:14 am (#46 of 70)

Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I have thought a lot about that, too, Madam P. I recall JKR said the series was going in a completely different direction before the death of her mother. It might even have been that, prior to her mother dying, Lily did not sacrifice her life for Harry. This is probably the wrong thread for it, but I personally have not fully accepted her view about death and sacrifice. It is a beautiful story and a staggeringly meaningful series in many ways, but the sacrifice thing doesn't sit well with me nor the welcoming of death.

I remember reading one line in particular which almost made me angry that she would so glorify death. To me it was glaringly obvious JKR was talking to herself: "Pity the living...". She finished the sentence with a clause, but wow... She created a world where death is enjoyable and we can only assume that is what she aimed to do.

- - - - - - - - - -
Julia H. - Mar 13, 2009 11:32 am (#47 of 70)

Yes, it is a very important theme in the books. It is discussed both explicitly and by means of symbols, which makes it easier for children to understand it. It also provides an opportunity for parents to talk about death with children (when both the parent and the child read the books). Children know about death and can have questions about it. Some fairy tales also deal with questions of death in a (symbolic) way that children can understand.

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Mar 13, 2009 7:09 pm (#48 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
"Pity the living...". She finished the sentence with a clause, but wow... She created a world where death is enjoyable and we can only assume that is what she aimed to do.--M&MSh813

I must remostrate with you, my fellow-Firenze...you cannot dismantle a sentence and quote only part of it. That's really compromising the context.

The entire quote (from my memory...sorry, I'm pinned under the laptop in my bed on a Friday evening...) is "Don't pity the dead. Pity the living who live without love" (italics added by me).

It seems to me that DD was making the point that the poor mangled, dead soulbit of LV didn't need pity so much as the poor,mangled soul Tom Riddle who had lived his life without love....without the love of a mother or father or siblings or any other extended family.....without the love for --or of-- a dear friend...without the love of a spouse/helpmate....without the love of an apprentice or student....without any love at all except what he exercised for himself...to the detriment of so many others.

While death was certainly a major topic in the series, I can't help but feel that the main topic was about how the choices we make end up creating the life that we live.

- - - - - - - - - -
me and my shadow 813 - Mar 13, 2009 7:42 pm (#49 of 70)

Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I love what you described above, freshwater. The trouble is, I do not always get that message from the books. The quote is indeed after Harry glances at the little mangled bit under the chair. However, the quote specifically says, "Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and, above all, those who live without love." She is really saying something there. It is not a casual comment to say the least.

I would like to think she means life is worth fighting for, but with sacrifice being so powerfully emphasised it makes me feel there is a very strong message being made. We'll never know exactly what she felt when she wrote it, but to me sacrifice and welcoming death goes against every living being's instinct on this planet. Coming to terms with it when one faces doom, as Harry does when he is convinced he'll never see another day, is courage absolutely. But to look forward to death as DD describes it? I hope that makes sense (Firenze-talk for *I don't expect anyone to agree with me*).

I'm not sure it's a good idea to take this conversation too deep, as it might tread upon religion. I will just say that there are several comments in the series that made me uncomfortable with what JKR's message was regarding death. It does have undertones of many spiritual beliefs so unless you can think of a way we can discuss this without getting deleted... ?

This particular discussion began about how JKR shared her experiences with depression and suicidal thoughts. To me, her comments about the beauty of death could be connected with her struggle with such problems. I am not talking from a pedestal, BTW.

- - - - - - - - - -
Julia H. - Mar 14, 2009 1:29 am (#50 of 70)

I don't get the feeling that JKR presents death as enjoyable, only as something that one does not have to be afraid of (except for people like Voldemort). The summary to me seems to be that death is not the worst thing that can happen to people in life. True, it is also described as the "next great adventure", but only after everything that a meaningful life has to offer. The youngest brother in the tale is wise enough to avoid death until he is ready to meet it, after a long life. Merope is almost blamed for dying instead of choosing to stay alive for her child. Dumbledore practically tells Snape that atoning is more valuable / useful than committing suicide out of remorse. Harry chooses to return to life from King's Cross. But one should not try to avoid death at all costs (Lily's sacrifice, Harry's sacrifice, etc.) because there are goals which are worth the risk or even the certainty of death. It is also wrong and - in the long run - impossible to avoid death by killing others.

Love is a force more powerful than death. Dumbledore says that, and it is shown in several ways: Lily's love saves Harry from death; our dead loved ones do not really leave us (Harry's parents "return" in various forms to help him); love saves Snape's soul and makes him fight for life (others' lives) etc.
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Favorite Quotes Used to Contrast That JKR Uses and Re-uses (Post 51 to 70)

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:35 am

freshwater - Mar 14, 2009 6:23 am (#51 of 70)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
"...the quote specifically says, "Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and, above all, those who live without love." She is really saying something there. It is not a casual comment to say the least."--M&MSh813

I think I understand your point better, now. Thanks for getting the actual quote, BTW!

When JKR says "don't pity the dead....pity the living...", I don't think she means to present death as preferable to living, but rather that those who are dead are at rest, while those left behind are still struggling with the viccitudes of life and require compassion and support.

But to look forward to death as DD describes it?--M&MSh813

Don't forget that DD is 150 years old....I suspect the view is different from that point!

"Viccitudes"....HA! Yet another word that I don't think I've ever had the occassion to use in conversation before! (Hope I spelled it right! )

EDIT: I'm off the collect a quote for the hangman now....really!

- - - - - - - - - -
Solitaire - Mar 14, 2009 9:28 am (#52 of 70)

Shall I be an insufferable know-it-all? It's actually vicissitudes, according to my desktop dictionary. I had to look it up to check whether it was vic or visc ... but I can't resist checking spelling when I'm not sure of something. It's the teacher in me, I guess. Great word, btw. I rarely hear (or read) it anymore.

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Mar 14, 2009 11:20 am (#53 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Thanks for the spellcheck, Solitaire! It didn't look right but it wasn't caught by the forum spellchecker.

A dictionary on the web....imagine that!

- - - - - - - - - -
legolas returns - Mar 14, 2009 11:24 am (#54 of 70)

Big word I have never heard of.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ludicrous Patents Office - Mar 14, 2009 4:19 pm (#55 of 70)

As we all know HP is very popular with teen agers. Reading this discussion about death has made me think about the very few Goth and Emo students I've had over the years have not picked up this theme from the books. Most of them are luke-warm fans.

A part of the theme is communicating with people who have died. There are many instances: Portraits, ghosts, Priori Incantata, Dumbledore at Kings Cross. There is also the longing of one more conversation with a loved one, how Harry feels about losing Sirius and not having someone to turn to. LPO

- - - - - - - - - -
Madam Pince - Mar 14, 2009 7:14 pm (#56 of 70)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Good point about the communication, LPO. Remember Harry's emotion when Sirius' mirror didn't work?

Another I forgot was Regulas "dying in the line of duty" as it were.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ludicrous Patents Office - Mar 15, 2009 7:33 am (#57 of 70)

I had forgotten about the mirror Madam Pince. He also tried to get Nick to explain things to him.

There is definitely a continuum on afterlife experiences. We see no indication of an afterlife for Dobby or house elves. I don't recall any portraits of house elves. Dumbledore, it seemed like, almost didn't die because he was so accessible in DH. LPO

- - - - - - - - - -
Solitaire - Mar 15, 2009 10:04 am (#58 of 70)

I often thought it would have been nice for Harry to have had "talking portraits" of James and Lily to consult now and then. He gets to talk to them, or rather their shadows, only twice--in the graveyard and in the forest--both times when he is facing potential death.

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Mar 15, 2009 10:21 am (#59 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I hope that JKR's encyclopedia will provide more insight into the practical workings of things like moving photgraphs and talking portraits....Accio, HP Encyclopedia!

- - - - - - - - - -
me and my shadow 813 - Mar 15, 2009 10:27 am (#60 of 70)

Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Not to get too metaphysical on you guys, and not that I don't wish Harry could have had the comfort of Portraits of his parents, and not that I know all there is to know about the metaphor of the quest but... The Quester is not permitted comforts of that nature. Certain "substitute" guardians come in and out of his/her life in order to serve specific purposes, and then they are gone. The Quester looks for comfort in vain and when he finds it within himself his quest is complete. That, to me, was symbolised by the spirits of his parents/Remus/Sirius walking by his side when he was ready to 'figure out' DD's riddle (I open at the close), and of course by DD at King's Cross which was alluded to all occurred in Harry's own consciousness, i.e. an extension of himself.

**hopping off insufferable know-it-all podium**

edited for attempted clarity

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Mar 15, 2009 11:51 am (#61 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
That wasn't 'insuffereable-know-it-all-y" at all, M&MSh813! That was a great explanation! Sometimes I get so wrapped up in my empathy for Harry as a character that I forget that he has a role to play as a 'quester' or 'hero' or 'everyman on a journey'.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ludicrous Patents Office - Mar 15, 2009 12:45 pm (#62 of 70)

Shadow thank you for reminding us of that. I was trying to work out the inconsistencies and you post helps to clear it up. Hop up on the podium anytime! LPO

- - - - - - - - - -
me and my shadow 813 - Mar 15, 2009 1:17 pm (#63 of 70)

Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Thank you!

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Jul 23, 2009 10:06 pm (#64 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
In talking with my kids today comparing PS/SS the book and the movie, we talked about why/how the movies makes changes from the book.

In the book JKR established her family and groupings and good/evil characteristics and uses coloring. In the book Dudley and Aunt Petunia are blond. That sets up the family tie. Then to contrast she makes the Malfoy's blond. The coloring helps establish the families and also tells us something about them. Dudley is a bad egg (though not irredeemable), The Malfoys with their blond white hair are bad-evil and again not irredeemable because they "love".

- - - - - - - - - -
Solitaire - Jul 23, 2009 11:22 pm (#65 of 70)

Mrs. Sirius, have you ever read the archived thread on The Hidden Meaning of Colour? Just wondering ...

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Jul 24, 2009 7:51 am (#66 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
JKR is uses so many layers in her writing. Right from the start she clusters people together in traits, physical attributes, psychological characteristics, on and on. It is like peeling a mica stone, there is always another layer to use to make a connection, draw parallels. I always like the connections between the Dursley's and the Malfoys.

I heard the song "Short People" not to long ago and explained to my kids how controversial it was at the time it came out. Most people only heard the nasty things it said to describe short people and completely missed the last line "short people are just like you and me". The Malfoys are mean nasty wizards and aligned with evil forces. The Dursley's are muggles but still as mean and nasty.

In the end both sides, whatever their reasons, come to the right side.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 2, 2009 10:04 pm (#67 of 70)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
“It’s one of the basic rules of breeding,” she said. “You see it all the time with dogs. If there’s something wrong with the bitch, there’ll be something wrong with the pup.”...[cut]...


Interesting. Jo essentially has Aunt Marge call Lily a bitch here, and this in what is obviously a children’s book (!); and she’s gotten away with it. This name-calling may be a first and last; compare here, to when Molly calls Bellatrix a bitch in DH – that book, of course, was well past what we’d call a “Hardy Boys” type of children’s book. Tanderaithank you tanderai

This one I have found intriguing, although she uses it only once, she has a bad character call a good character a name, Marge of Lily, then she reverses it and has the good character call the bad character the same name Mrs. Weasley of Bellatrix. She uses the reversal of roles, sort of the negative for the positive often through out the series.

- - - - - - - - - -
PeskyPixie - Aug 3, 2009 8:07 am (#68 of 70)

I'm not sure whether this has already been mentioned, but in DH Fred and George pull their "He's not Fred, I am ... only joking, I am Fred" bit with Mad-Eye Moody, just as they did with Mrs. Weasley in PS/SS.

- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Aug 5, 2009 8:31 am (#69 of 70)

Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Goog catch, Pesky! That teasing from the twins is another nice set of "bookend" quotes/actions for the series.

- - - - - - - - - -
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 5, 2009 4:00 pm (#70 of 70)

Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Pesky, that would be great for the Palindrome thread, too! Not only is it mirroring as first/last PS/DH but it's from the mirror-image twins!
avatar
Elanor
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 45
Location : France

Back to top Go down

Re: Favorite Quotes Used to Contrast That JKR Uses and Re-uses

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum