Palindrome - Symmetry of the Series

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Palindrome - Symmetry of the Series

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:58 am

Palindrome - Symmetry of the Series

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "New Discussions Threads Not Approved or Placed" folder of the WC forum. Elanor

me and my shadow 813 - Mar 17, 2009 1:41 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Mar 19, 2009 1:03 pm
Of course there are countless connections throughout the series but I thought it would be fun to start a thread strictly for compiling a list of books 1/7, 2/6, 3/5 mirroring each other. Our beloved series could be viewed as [4] GoF being the centerpiece and the "outer" books symmetrically mirroring each other similar to a palindrome.

Visually, it would be represented like this:

PS CS PA GF OP HBP DH

Some PS / DH mirroring:

Mention of the dragon of Gringott's -- Appearance of the dragon

A Goblin at front door of Gringott's in scarlet and gold uniform -- A Goblin helps Gryffindors to break into Gringotts

Griphook introduced as the Goblin leading Harry to the vaults -- Griphook leading Harry to the vaults

Mention of Bathilda Bagshot -- Significance of Bathilda Bagshot

A poster named rcs was clever in the analysis of CS / HBP mirroring. This is the post of those similarities: link to post

moderators: if this has already been done at length then please delete this as new thread and/or move to the proper existing thread
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Palindrome - Symmetry of the Series (Post 1 to 35)

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:00 am

journeymom - Mar 18, 2009 8:47 am (#1 of 35)
I like this and will have to think on it some, when I'm not so caught up in real life stuff.

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 18, 2009 9:09 am (#2 of 35)

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Great! Thanks, journeymom. I hope folks will get into it.

I found another one for PS/DH:

Bloody Baron: Seamus asks Nick in PS 'How did he get covered in blood?', and Nick replies, 'I've never asked.'

This is never brought up again until DH, and we get our answer.

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rambkowalczyk - Mar 18, 2009 10:31 am (#3 of 35)

Do books 3 and 5 mirror each other?

DADA teacher in POA is Lupin a werewolf. a vicious creature in a pleasant person.

DADA teacher in OOP is Umbridge --- a vicious creature in what might be at first glance a pleasant person.

In POA, Sirius Black seems to be after Harry but is really after someone else.

In OOP, Harry has dreams of wanting to go through a door but really it's Voldemort who wants to get behind the door.

In both books we learn more about Snape's relationship with James.

In POA the twins give Harry the map. In OOP the twins make Harry laugh (?) by thwarting Umbridge.

Actually I think I see more symmetry with book 3 and book 6.

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 18, 2009 12:17 pm (#4 of 35)

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Great post, ramb! I definitely see PA and OP having solid mirroring regarding the Marauders and Harry's connections with his parents and the Prophecy. It's true there are similarities with other books, of course, but with rcs's post I linked to I cannot believe the 2/6 connection!

Right now I'm listening to PS so am getting a lot of material from there for PS/DH ... but I'll be looking into PA/OOTP very soon.

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Julia H. - Mar 18, 2009 2:44 pm (#5 of 35)

Interesting new thread!

I have two little observations to contribute: PoA and OotP are also connected by Sirius. These are the two books in which Sirius is seriously present. Of course, he appears in the middle book, GoF, too. In the first two books he is in prison, in the last two books he is dead. "Out of life" in both cases. Harry finds Sirius at the end of PoA (when Harry's original intention is to kill him) and loses him at the end of OotP (when he wants to save him).

The Patronus Charm: Harry learns the Patronus Charm in PoA and teaches it in OotP.

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 18, 2009 2:54 pm (#6 of 35)

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Edited Mar 18, 2009 3:40 pm
Fabulous, Julia! Those are perfect examples!

Adding on to the PS/DH list:

In PS, Minerva says about DD and dark magical powers: "It's only because you're too - well - noble to use them."

In DH, we find out the truth about DD's history.

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 18, 2009 8:07 pm (#7 of 35)

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Three more for PS/DH:

Percy with twins in PS...

‘P for prefect!’

‘I – don’t – want’

‘And you’re not sitting with the prefects today, either,’ said George. ‘Christmas is a time for family.’

...and Percy with twins in DH:

‘…family-disowning…’

‘Yes, I was!’

‘Well, we look to our prefects to take a lead at times such as these,’ said George.

Golden Snitch/the significant catch of PS returned to Harry in DH.

We see Severus flying (on a broom) in PS; only other time we see Severus flying (this time he didn't need a broom!) is in DH.

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Solitaire - Mar 18, 2009 9:43 pm (#8 of 35)

In PoA, Harry finds Sirius.
In OotP, Harry loses Sirius.

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Julia H. - Mar 19, 2009 1:55 am (#9 of 35)

A parallel between CoS and HBP: In HBP, the departure of Fawkes at Dumbeldore's funeral may remind us of CoS, where we see the burning and the rebirth of Fawkes and where we see Fawkes for the first time at all.

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 19, 2009 10:13 am (#10 of 35)

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Good stuff, guys! I think another for PS/DH:

Dedalus Diggle meeting Harry in PS, and not appearing again until fetching the Dursley's in DH. He was the first wizard to have contact with Harry, when Harry noticed him bowing to him on the street -- and he is there when Harry says goodbye to the Dursleys and Muggle life forever.

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Orion - Mar 19, 2009 11:53 am (#11 of 35)

A fascinating thread! We could make a grid so that not everybody posts the same stuff all the time! Another little thing but I don't know whether it has been posted before: Dumbledore and Flamel destroy the Stone in PS, saying goodbye to immortality, and DD reappears as his "immortal soul" in DH. That might be a little lopsided...

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 19, 2009 12:23 pm (#12 of 35)

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Orion, I think that's great! Certainly phrased as:

Harry/DD's discussion about the Stone/life and death in PS while they are both alive <--> Harry/DD's discussion about life and death at King's Cross while they are both dead.

A grid would be great. I was intending on compiling a list, so perhaps after a few more posts I'll work on how to show the list on the thread.

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Orion - Mar 19, 2009 1:17 pm (#13 of 35)

LOL I suddenly had the impression that professor Snape with his best disdainful expression had a speech bubble besides him saying "Orion, I think that's great!" - sigh...

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 19, 2009 1:24 pm (#14 of 35)

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- - - - - < Orion, you look beautiful today. Now turn to page 394!

A small addition: Only two Gringott's break-ins: in PS and DH.

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legolas returns - Mar 19, 2009 2:51 pm (#15 of 35)

Hagrid arrives at Privet Drive with Harry on Sirius's Motorbike (PS). Harry leaves Privet Drive for the last time on the same bike (DH).

Harry is left on the doorstep by Dumbledore (PS) and Dumbledore picks Harry up in (HBP).

Harry sees the rebirth of Voldemort from the Babyform (GOF). He sees the Baby form again in Kings Cross (DH).

Within books (HBP). Harry leaves with Dumbledore (begining). Harry and Dumbledore return from the Cave. The role of protector is reversed.

Harry wanted to protect Ginny in POA after freeing her from the COS. Harry wants to protect Ginny at the end of HBP by distancing himself.

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 19, 2009 9:30 pm (#16 of 35)

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legolas, excellent one about the motorbike! The others are fabulous, too. But that one fits with this thread, for connecting themes in books 1&7 or 2&6 or 3&5. The CoS rescuing Ginny and HBP breaking up with Ginny is actually perfect, too!

I have another for PS/DH:

In PS, DD gives Harry tools (cloak) and clues (mirror) to fight Vold <--> in DH, DD gives the trio tools (put-outer, sword, snitch/ring) and clues (Tales of BB) to finish Vold.

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Julia H. - Mar 20, 2009 1:25 am (#17 of 35)

In CoS, Harry can't get on the train in time. In HBP, he can't get off the train in time. Eventually, he manages to get to Hogwarts and is escorted into the castle by Snape.

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Solitaire - Mar 20, 2009 6:50 am (#18 of 35)

In CoS, Harry hardly gives Ginny a thought, until the Chamber. He is embarrassed by her affections. In HBP, he desires her affections and is jealous of the other boys she dates.

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 20, 2009 7:03 pm (#19 of 35)

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More good stuff, guys! (okay, I'm officially going to stop being cheerleader for this thread... go team!)

Nitpicking on my own post: I forgot Dedalus was one of the Guard in OOTP. So he was seen in between PS and DH, but it is still a nice mirror that Dedalus was the first wizard Harry noticed in his Muggle World, and he was the last wizard he sees before leaving his Muggle World forever. Hope that makes sense.

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wynnleaf - Mar 21, 2009 6:31 am (#20 of 35)

The climactic scenes in all of the books include either a trip underground, or a symbolic underground, or a trip into "death".

In PS, Harry goes down through the trap door down into the various traps to protect the Stone.

In COS, Harry goes down the pipes under Hogwarts.

In POA, Harry goes down under the Whomping Willow and through the tunnel.

In GOF, Harry goes to the graveyard.

In OOTP, Harry goes down into the depths of the Ministry of Magic.

In HBP Harry goes with Dumbledore into a cave.

In DH, Harry walks to his death and through death.

For each climax, Harry must go through a symbolic or real form of "death" by this trip through the underground or the grave.

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 21, 2009 9:47 am (#21 of 35)

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This is true, wynnleaf. Like seven initiations, Harry must go through the "underworld" and in the process learns something new and meaningful about himself and others. It is a very ancient and classic form for story-telling of spiritual awakening and the concept of "know thyself".

How to make them more palindrome-ish...

In PS/DH, both have to do with a magical stone;

In CS/HBP, both have to do with a horcrux and a deadly location designed by a Slytherin;

In PA/OP, both have to do with Sirius: upon entering Whomping Willow Harry wants to kill him and MoM to save him.
----------------------------------------
PA/OP also both show time-turners: one to introduce them and the other to break them.

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Julia H. - Mar 21, 2009 9:57 am (#22 of 35)

Amazing about the "underworld trips", Wynnleaf and Shadow! It also shows how important death is as a topic in HP.

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Orion - Mar 21, 2009 1:31 pm (#23 of 35)

Great catch about the time-turners, Shadow! I have another little one: The Knight Bus is in POA and OOP.

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Quinn Crockett - Mar 22, 2009 11:47 am (#24 of 35)

"Yes! I'm impugning a continent!"
Amazing about the "underworld trips", Wynnleaf and Shadow! It also shows how important death is as a topic in HP.

You guys should check out the alchemy thread.

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Quinn Crockett - Mar 22, 2009 8:24 pm (#25 of 35)

"Yes! I'm impugning a continent!"
Ron and Hermione hate each other in the beginning, and by the end of DH they're married with kids.

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me and my shadow 813 - Mar 24, 2009 8:39 pm (#26 of 35)

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PS: The Mirror of Erised saves the day

DH: The two-way mirror saves the day

Can't get any more palindrom-y than mirrors I suppose.

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PeskyPixie - Aug 4, 2009 10:53 am (#27 of 35)

I'm not sure whether this belongs here, but I love how Harry hates Snape but they share a set of patronuses. Similarly, they each hold one half of Lily's letter and of the same photograph.

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Solitaire - Aug 4, 2009 12:00 pm (#28 of 35)

Nice one, Pesky! I've thought about the Patronuses, but I'd never considered the photo.

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PeskyPixie - Aug 4, 2009 1:05 pm (#29 of 35)

Thanks, Soli. I was re-reading DH this week and it occurred to me that Harry and Snape shared quite a bit in this last book.

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Julia H. - Aug 6, 2009 2:25 pm (#30 of 35)

A third thing that is shared between them is Dumbledore's plan and the secret of Horcruxes. Together they know the whole plan, but each knows a different portion of it.

Another type of symmetry is perhaps that according to what Dumbledore tells Snape, it seems Dumbledore expects Harry to die and Snape to be with him - sort of - around the end of his life (at least in the sense that it is Snape's duty to break Harry the news about his inevitable death) but what really happens is the opposite: Snape dies and Harry is with him in the last moments.

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PeskyPixie - Aug 7, 2009 9:02 am (#31 of 35)

Great, Julia! The parallels between Harry and Snape in DH are fascinating.

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PeskyPixie - Aug 16, 2009 3:15 pm (#32 of 35)

I don't know whether this has already been posted, but in their very first encounter, Harry and Snape look one another straight in the eyes. In their very last moment together, they look into one another's eyes again.

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Gerald Costales - Sep 21, 2009 8:38 pm (#33 of 35)

The first "Golden Snitch", Harry catches as a Seeker in Book One, is returned to him in Book Seven. But now, the "Golden Snitch" contains the "Resurrection Stone".

PS MAMS I think you may have already posted this.

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me and my shadow 813 - Apr 17, 2010 5:04 pm (#34 of 35)

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At some point in the near future, I intend to compile a list of all the Palindromes cited in this thread. Maybe it will stimulate some more research, too. Stay tuned!

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me and my shadow 813 - Apr 27, 2010 11:12 am (#35 of 35)

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I intend to archive this thread (because it's mine and even though it's tiny I really like it ) -- but before I do I'll make some sort of index of all the palindromes.

In my initial post I linked what rcs had posted in a CoS Read-along thread. I think it needs to be spelled out here for posterity.

Parallels between Books 2 and 6:

Diary/Horcruxes

Tom Riddle's backstory (including Slytherin connection, Parseltongue, the orphanage, the name "Marvolo," etc.)

Harry's convinced Malfoy's planning something and spies on him in both books.

Harry sees Malfoy down Knockturn Alley (and Hand of Glory and cursed opal necklace referenced in both books).

Peeves smashes the Vanishing Cabinet in CoS, indirectly making the events of HBP possible.

Series of mysterious near-fatalities at Hogwarts

Ginny Weasley (and H&G relationship) important in both books

Harry stays at the Burrow in both books.

Harry arrives late (for a surprising reason) and misses the Sorting in both books (and in both books, Snape meets him on his way into the castle to berate him about it).

Flamboyant new teacher (Lockhart/Slughorn) who organizes annoying get-togethers (Lockhart's Valentine's Day celebration/Slughorn's Christmas party) and starts a club at Hogwarts (Duelling Club/Slug Club)

Harry ends up in the Hospital Wing after being hit by a Bludger in both books...and is visited by Dobby afterward.

Aragog in both books

Moaning Myrtle in both books

Hogwarts in danger of closing as a result of the events of both books

Malfoy family behind most of the mayhem of both books (Lucius in CoS, Draco in HBP)

Climax of both books involves a visit to a mysterious underground lair connected with Voldermort (Chamber of Secrets/Horcrux Cave)

Annoying younger Gryffindor student (Colin Creevey/Romilda Vane)

Weird accident that happens to Ron (Belching slugs/love potion/poisoned mead)

Harry and Ron Polyjuice into Crabbe and Goyle in CoS; Crabbe and Goyle Polyjuice into other people in HBP.

Complicated potion central to the plot of both books (Polyjuice Potion; Felix Felicis); in both cases used to coax another person into revealing important secrets

Love potions first mentioned in CoS (Lockhart's Valentine's Day celebration); love potions central to the plot of HBP

Potion book important (Moste Potente Potions/Advanced Potion Making)

50-year-old book important (Riddle's Diary/HBP's potion book)

Dumbledore's office first seen in CoS; much of HBP takes place there.

Memories important in both books

CoS and HBP were the only two HP books dedicated to a single person. CoS was dedicated to Sean Harris (JKR's childhood friend), while HBP was dedicated to JKR's daughter Mackenzie.

And finally...

HBP was actually the working title of CoS, as JKR herself revealed!!!

I'm sure I'll think of more, and I'll try to post them when I do. But for now, I think that's a good list to start with.

Nicely done, rcs!
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