Killing Harry/Sparing Lily (Condensed Thread)

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Post  Lady Arabella on Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:22 pm

The following is an archive of material originally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum, hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15th, 2011.

Archivist's note: This thread was in the Condensed Archived Threads section of the Lexicon Forum. It appears to be two originally separate threads that were combined during the first archiving process, thus the discontinuity in the post numbers. The threads also appeared to have been combined with gaps in the post numbers - the gaps were not part of the most recent archiving process.


Last edited by Lady Arabella on Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:54 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : to close the bold tag after 'Condensed Archived Threads')
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Killing Harry/Sparing Lily (Condensed Thread) Empty Posts for "Killing Harry"

Post  Lady Arabella on Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:25 pm

Killing Harry / Sparing Lily - Condensed thread
S.E. Jones - Nov 18, 2003 5:11 pm Reply
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 11:27 pm

Why did Voldemort want to kill Harry so much?

mrs.p - Nov 2, 2002 6:26 pm
In the 1st book, it says that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry, not his mom. Why did he want to kill harry? Does anyone know?

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Ashley2006 - Nov 3, 2002 1:54 am (#2 of 75)
I think that Harry may actually be Voldemorts son. In book two Voldemort mentions how much they are alike...Maybe that is why he didn't want to kill Lily.

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W J - Nov 3, 2002 3:08 pm (#3 of 75)
JKR has already said she is not rewriting Star Wars so Harry is not Voldemort's son. And in Book 1, Dumbledore says that Harry has no other living relatives besides the Dursleys when he leaves Harry at their door.

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Carina - Nov 3, 2002 7:12 pm (#4 of 75)
Dumbledore also says in CoS that Tom Riddle is the last living descendant of Salizar Slytherin. If Harry were Voldemort's son or grandson, HARRY would be the last descendant.

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A S - Nov 4, 2002 12:22 pm (#5 of 75)
There is NO WAY Harry can be Voldemort's son. First of all, take into consideration the descriptions given of Lily and James Potter (Harry's parents). Harry has James' dark hair and need for glasses, also bravery and the ability to be a seeker. Harry has Lily's eyes (green). Also, Lily and James Potter were both Gryffindors, as is Harry. Voldemort was a Slytherin for obvious reasons. It is also feasible that when Voldemort attacked Harry the night in Godric's Hollow, some of Voldemort "spilled into" Harry. This includes being a parseltongue. Harry was not born a parseltongue, but rather aqquired it. It is clear that Harry Potter's true parents are Lily and James Potter, not Voldemort.

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sam potter - Nov 4, 2002 12:23 pm (#6 of 75)
I have no idea why Voldemort wants to kill Harry, but since he is the descendant of Slytherin, I think Harry is a descendant of Gryffindor. Plus has anyone noticed the connection between Godric Gryffindor and Godrics Hollow (where Harry's parents lived)?

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Keith Detloff - Nov 4, 2002 2:49 pm (#7 of 75)
Sirius says of Peter in PoA, "to deliver the last Potter to them (Death Eaters)". It is this that makes me feel Harry is Heir of Gryffindor. So we have a thousand year feud.

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Kevin YouBustSlug - Nov 4, 2002 3:41 pm (#8 of 75)
Keith, I'm certain that you are correct about a thousand year feud going on here, beginning with Gryffindor vs. Slytherin. There is a wonderful article somewhere here in the Lexicon about Fawkes, DD's phoenix. According to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, phoenixes live a very long time. The author puts forward the idea that Fawkes originally belonged to Godric Gryffindor and that the basilisk, which also lives a long time, in CoS is the same one as the one created (if that is the correct term) by Salazar Slytherin. Fawkes and Harry have now defeated the basilisk....

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Kevin YouBustSlug - Nov 4, 2002 7:09 pm (#11 of 75)
Dumbledore says that Voldemort is the last living ANCESTOR of Salazar Slytherin...not descendant.

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Wendelin the Weird - Nov 14, 2002 2:47 pm (#22 of 75)
Maybe [Rowling] means to imply that both ancestor and descendant are the same thing in the sense of this evil power... Neither Slytherin's evil came before Voldemort's, or vice versa... they are the same power. In that sense, the heir of Slytherin would be one who holds the same evil power as him, not someone linked by ancestry. In other words, Slytherin's power was around before he was (just called something else not recorded historically)... and the power Voldemort has is the same as Slytherin's ancient power. Therefore Voldemort, which is not his true name, is just the power of evil inhabiting a host. I think Slytherin's power was transferred to Tom Riddle somehow, not inherited genetically.

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Ginney Weasley - Nov 23, 2002 1:33 pm (#26 of 75)
Has anyone else read this theory from the Lexicon. Very interesting. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Valerie Fore - Dec 5, 2002 12:00 am (#27 of 75)
I have a new and un-explored theory! Dumbledore says that Trelawney has made 2 accurate predictions... What if the first prediction was that Harry would be the one to bring down Voldemort? Then, Voldemort would have gone to Godric's Hollow looking specifically for Harry. Sort of an "I'll get you before you get me" sort of deal. He didn't care about killing Lily and James, they just got in the way of his killing Harry.

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Harry Fan - Dec 5, 2002 2:25 pm (#30 of 75)
It's simple, really, why Voldemort wanted/wants Harry dead. He wanted him dead in the first place because the Potters wouldn't switch to the dark side, so he went to kill them, and Harry was part of their family, so naturally, Voldemort would wipe out the whole family name by killing Harry. He wants him dead now, because he wants revenge on the one year old he deteriorated his power.

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I Love Ron - Dec 6, 2002 1:25 pm (#31 of 75)
It doesn't add up if Voldemort wanted all the Potters dead. If he did, then Lily didn't technically die to save Harry's life and therefor he would have been killed along with the rest of them makeing the whole story non-existent. Harry only lives if Lily wasn't supposed to die. That's why all those theories about James and Harry being descendants of someone important, either Voldemort himself or Dumbledore. Anyway you get the idea. I personally wouldn't like to see Harry related to Voldemort, I'm just repeating what I've read.

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Choco - Dec 6, 2002 6:32 pm (#32 of 75)
In accordance with what has doubtless been said before, I have always followed the line of thinking that Trelawney's first prediction was that Harry would kill Voldemort. The instant I read for the first time Dumbledore's remark about Trelawney's correct predictions, the Oedipus story jumped to my mind[/b] - that is, the Oracle predicting something that only comes true if the person concerned seeks to avoid his fate. Laius, Jocasta, and Oedipus all fell prey to hubris, thinking that they could outsmart fate: Tom Riddle strikes me as the same sort of person. That might explain also why Dumbledore works so hard to prepare Harry for a fight against Voldemort (SS especially)[/b] - he knows that that is how it is destined to end.

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riquelme - Dec 30, 2002 9:05 pm (#42 of 75)
Maybe Voldemort had killed the heirs of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw and was on his way to wipe out the Gryffindors when he failed.

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Kim Wong - Dec 31, 2002 5:38 pm (#43 of 75)
Dumbledore clearly states that Harry is like Voldemort because he transferred some of his powers to him the night he tried to kill him. My guess is Voldemort consulted an oracle(divination) who said that Harry Potter would become the next powerful wizard.( I mean, how many twelve year olds can tackle a fifty foot long snake?) Voldemort, ever power hungry, tried to kill him. This information leaked out to Dumbledore and the rest is history.

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dudley - Jan 2, 2003 11:22 pm (#47 of 75)
Just been thinking about "highlander" again.... in the end there will be only one. That then leads me on to why voldy wants to kill Harry. Perhaps in some way, the magical powers of the 4 great wizards were divided through the bloodlines and Voldemort needs to kill all the decendants to gain enough power to overcome death itself? There was a lot of talk by Voldy in the books about his quest to conquer death, and Harry is the key in this quest, and maybe there is more to Avanda Kadabra than we think... it may just kill people, but perhaps it also "sucks" the magic out of the victim making the caster more powerful... Is this why Voldy wants to kill Harry!

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TGF - Jan 3, 2003 2:33 am (#48 of 75)
I think Voldemort wanted Harry dead because he's Voldemort, and likes killing people. Lily and James were strong wizards that were in opposition to him, along with the 'old crowd', and Voldemort wanted to find them and destroy them as a sort of example toward any who would oppose him.

As to why James and Lily went into hiding... Well, if you/your spouse had just given birth to a son and there was a Dark Lord lurking somewhere with a mind for your demise, wouldn't you go into hiding? Having a child about is a weakness. It can be taken hostage, it can be threatened and it can be killed. So James and Lily, fearing for Harry's safety and life, went into hiding.
However, they did not count on the treachery of Wormtail. When the Dark Lord arrived then, the only thing he had on his mind was murder. He slayed James and proceeded against Lily, who was shielding Harry. Some people wonder why he said: "Stand aside, silly girl!" and all that. Well, my answer to that is he wanted Lily to see Harry die. To see that, in spite all her and her husband efforts to protect him, he had prevailed. So that she would feel the despair of her failure and of losing her own son before her eyes before she died. She did not budge, however, and so she died, protecting Harry.

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Miss Granger - Jan 3, 2003 9:19 pm (#52 of 75)
There is an obvious dislike of Gryffindor's by Salazar. Quote Professor Binns "Slytherin wished to be more selective about the students admitted to Hogwarts. ... After a while, there was a serious argument on the subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school." Lord Voldemort is "the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin"[/b] - quote Dumbledore. Also Dumbledore tells Harry "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that (the sword) out of the hat".

Now to put it together... Tom Riddle, aka Voldemort, is Slytherin's great, great grandson by his mother's side. (Remember Tom's mom is the witch and his father is a muggle.) Harry, is an ancestor to Gryffindor on his father’s side (being that Lily was born from muggle and James wizards). Slytherin has it out for Gryffindor and perhaps has set his new goal of killing Gryffindor. In doing so his entire ancestory line has been in the process of exterminating all ancestors of Gryffindor. James and Harry being the last of the Gryffindor line, and Voldemort being the last of the Slytherin line, Voldemort is set out to kill James and Harry. Upon understanding this fate, the Potter's go into hidding. When found Voldemort says "stand aside, silly girl!", he doesn't care about killing Lily because she does not have any direct decent from Gryffindor. Therefore: Voldemort wants to kill Harry to finish the work of his ancestors, plus to add to the fire he's probably really mad about what has happened to himself.

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TGF - Jan 4, 2003 12:16 am (#55 of 75)
I disagree with the bloodline theory
Salazar Slytherin was for purity of blood, where Godric Gryffindor was for judging individuals by their own merit. It's only natural then for Slytherin, who cares so much about the purity of blood and family lines, to set things up for an heir. However, Gryffindor having an heir is completely contrary to the views that Godric expressed in the beginning. I think that Godric Gryffindor was a man who was for fairness, and I doubt he would give even his own son/daughter (if he had one) an advantage over anyone else. And the Dark Lord is much more than just Slytherin's heir now. Voldemort's plan is not to simply rid the world of Muggle-born wizards, his plan is absolute domination. "Heir of Slytherin" is just one title he possesses, of many.

Finally, what Dumbledore said in CoS was: "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat." That really only means what it says and Dumbledore said it because he wanted to dispel Harry's doubts over what house he belonged in. Hermoine could have pulled the sword out... Ron could have pulled the sword out... Percy, Fred, Neville, Ginny and Jordan could have pulled it out. Any Gryffindor could have (Unless you want to dispute any of the people mentioned as being 'true Gryffindors').
And even if there IS an heir of Gryffindor, why does it have to be from the wizards' side? I don't think it would be very much within the tradition of Gryffindor if his children stringently guarded his bloodline from ever touching a Muggle. There's nothing to say that this heir-dom would not come from Lily's side.

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TGF - Jan 4, 2003 1:18 am (#57 of 75)
I think that Voldemort wasn't really after Harry so much as he was after the Potters. It's not hard to believe that they were a force to be reckoned with in the wizarding world (James did manage to hold his own against Voldemort for a while that night, which is something in itself) and that the Dark Lord wanted them dead.

I don't see why we'd have to have heard of James and Lily 'coming very close to dying' in a book so far. I mean, other than that they went to Hogwarts, got married, had Harry and (in James' case) made a Marauders map, we don't know much of ANYTHING about them. It goes without saying that they lived a rather dangerous life (So dangerous that Lupin and Sirius were suspicious of EACH OTHER, which I think is momentous), as they lived in the peak of Voldemort's power. So who's to say that they didn't have an encounter with the Dark Lord and his Death Eaters, only to escape with little more than their lives? It was an evil time, with evil things happening, after all.

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Nine - Jan 4, 2003 5:01 am (#58 of 75)
If there's an heir of Gryffindor, it won't be a genetic heir. It would be more of a spiritual heir to his personality and powers.

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W J - Jan 4, 2003 3:23 pm (#59 of 75)
TGF, if Godric Gryffindor had children and descendents, then he had heirs. Do not confuse the peerage/title heir system where a designated heir inherits all with the normal family process of having children who are your legacy. Your children are the heir of your wisdom, your beliefs, your blood. They may not always accept your wisdom and beliefs, but they always inherit your blood and the bloodline continues. Voldemort is the heir to Slytherin's prejudice more than anything else even if he is a blood descendent. And there is nothing in the books to suggest that a wizard can leave their "powers" to another wizard. You are born with powerful magic or not (and, yes, I know Harry may have had a transfer of power from Voldemort but that was not intentional).

I think if there is a Gryffindor heir, it will be like you stated, through the generations of the Gryffindor bloodline. Magical or muggle, it matters not. Nine is correct about it being more of a spiritual heir and I think it is Gryffindor's legacy of good that is more important than bloodlines.
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Killing Harry/Sparing Lily (Condensed Thread) Empty Posts for "Sparing Lily"

Post  Lady Arabella on Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:31 pm

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S.E. Jones - Nov 18, 2003 5:12 pm (#1 of 1) Reply

"Stand aside, silly girl, stand aside now!" Why did Voldemort offer to spare Lily?

Jimmy Bell - Oct 29, 2002 8:02 pm
"Stand aside, silly girl! Stand aside now!" "Your father put up a brave fight, but your mother needn't have died. She was trying to protect you." When we read this the question that leaps to mind is, 'Why would Voldemort wanted to have spared Lily? Why didn't he just kill her to begin with?' He killed the McKinnons, the Bones, and the Prewetts entire families according to Hagrid. So what made Voldemort reluctant to kill Lily? What is the reasoning in the mind of the Dark Lord?

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Ginney Weasley - Oct 31, 2002 9:02 am (#6 of 300)
What if part of the information supplied by Peter was that Lily had been preparing a charm to protect Harry in the case of her death. (Or even if Peter didn't tell him, perhaps he had knowledge of such a charm)? So if he knew this ahead of time then that could explain why he tried to use any deception to try to get her to stand aside... he may have even intended to kill her also, but wanted to get Harry first to avoid the effects of her charm. As I imagine the possibility I picture Voldy getting increasingly frustrated and deciding to throw caution to the wind.

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sohey - Oct 31, 2002 9:23 pm (#9 of 300)
I think Lily can have some kinds of family relationship with Voldemort. Harry is Parseltongue. Dombledore believes, Harry's Parseltongue comes from when Voldemort curse rebounced, he left himself on Harry. But what if, Harry's ability to converse with snakes comes from his family which he does not have that much information. In that case, I think his ability comes from his mother side. That's why Voldemort tried to spare her to ask her to stand aside.

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Jimmy Bell - Oct 31, 2002 10:30 pm (#10 of 300)
We know Voldemort doesn't hesitate to kill family members. He killed his father, grandmother, and grandfather in Little Hangleton.

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sohey - Nov 2, 2002 11:35 am (#20 of 300)
Voldemort killed his father and grandparents a sort of revenge for his mom. His father abandoned his mom because she was witch. I think His hatred about muggle is comes from his disappointment of his father. Even he is the dark wizard, I think he still has a idea about family. Because I do not clearly remember where I read it but he mentioned, Death Eater are his family.

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Monkey Magic - Nov 2, 2002 1:32 pm (#21 of 300)
To kill James and attempt to kill Harry suggests an attempt to wipe out James's blood line (after all, we never hear of any other of James's relations - maybe they are all already dead. This could also bring a small amount of credence to the old “heir of Slytherin vs heir of Gryffindor” theory). Also, terror is a powerful way of controlling people, and leaving a few witnesses means the message gets spread more efficiently.

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cara - Nov 11, 2002 1:24 pm (#25 of 300)
You-Know-Who has offered two things outside his character:

Lily's life and Alliance with Harry

I see both situations alike. You-Know-Who wanted something very badly and the people who held these things would not give them to him. He wanted Harry from Lily and the stone from Harry. I think in the latter that Voldermort only offered Harry an alliance as a bribe to get the stone; I really don't think he intended on keeping the boy alive. Perhaps that the former is the same?

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Jimmy Bell - Nov 18, 2002 9:26 pm (#29 of 300)
Someone (phoenix 11, I think) just presented the theory that Snape's hatred of James might have been fueled by a love for Lily and that Snape turned against Voldemort and became Dumbledore's spy when he discovered that the Dark Lord was searching for the Potters. What if Voldemort had not wanted to kill Lily because he had not wanted to alienate a powerful Death Eater?

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Lenka - Dec 2, 2002 4:47 am (#42 of 300)
plus, I think maybe Voldemort wasn't trying to "kill all the potters". Or, that wasn't really the purpose. he wanted to kill a potter that had been predicted to be his downfall.

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Kesesi - Dec 18, 2002 1:25 pm (#47 of 300)
Why is it assumed that Voldemort's entreaty to Lily to stand aside was an offer to spare her and not simply a statement his frustration at being opposed and of his desire to kill Harry. "Please stand aside. I wish to kill your son first. Don't worry though, I will take care of you afterwards."

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SilverTree - Dec 18, 2002 2:06 pm (#48 of 300)
Kesesi is probably right. Voldy was just trying to make Lily give him Harry, persuading her that her life would be saved if she did that, but not thinking about really saving her life at all; kinda like he did with Harry in book1 to get the stone... you don't really that he would spare the life of the one that almost killed him, right?

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riquelme - Dec 19, 2002 12:59 am (#50 of 300)
I think Voldemort was ignorant of Lily's charm that protected Harry, it's referred in the books as being an ancient charm, and Voldemort ALWAYS forgets something (that charm, phoenix's tears, etc.)

Another question: Why didn't Lily fight Voldemort as well? Was she afraid? Did she know Voldemort? Could the charm only work only if Lily was being victimized and/or in the presence of great danger? After all, she was a brilliant student, being a Head Girl and all.

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vdobbs - Dec 19, 2002 5:43 am (#51 of 300)
Who's to say she did not fight? She could have been beaten down and he was telling a dying woman to get out of his way. We just don't know. (not yet at least)

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phoenixeleven - Dec 22, 2002 12:04 am (#60 of 300)
Well, if you think about it, "she needn't have died," Voldemort is really just stating the obvious. She didn't NEED to die. From his point of view, James needed to die because he stood in the way of Voldemort's plans and tried to fight him. Harry needed to die because he also somehow stands in the way of Voldemort's plans. Whatever the heck it is that stands in the way of Voldemort's plans, Lily doesn't have it. She just physically placed herself in his way. What we see as an honorable sacrifice, something any mother worth her salt would have done in an instant, seems rather stupid to the most ambitious Slytherin in England. What would she gain by shielding her baby from an unblockable Avada Kedavra curse? He just thinks that she would die and then so would her baby.

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LuckyCharmzz87 - Dec 23, 2002 12:08 pm (#66 of 300)
Okay so we know that Tom is the Heir of Salazar Slytherin...And there is a huge possibility that Harry is the heir to Godric Gryffindor...So maybe Tom is trying to finish what his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great whatever wanted to do...Kill Godric...Well the closet thing he could do to this considering that Godric is already dead is kill his family and heir...If Harry is the heir, this would make the Potters(only the ones by blood, not the ones by marriage) Godric's true descendants...So maybe Voldermort did kill all the Potters...That would explain why the Dursely's were his only remaining family...And why he could care less if Lily was dead or not...

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Mattew Bates - Feb 3, 2003 9:56 am (#69 of 300)
Here's an speculative idea that has been touched upon, but from a different angle: What if Lily was central to some plan of Voldemort's, and getting rid of the Potters was just a matter of "killing the spares?"

Suppose he needed her as a sacrifice/component for some gruesome spell (in the vein of his rebirthing one). That makes more sense to me than a love reason, which Voldy seems incapable of, or a descendancy one. He doesn't see the need for an heir, he's thinks he's going to live forever.

It's possible the rest of the Potter line had died of natural causes. He was just killing witnesses, and ended up killing his tool before he had used her up. Then the question transforms from "why did Voldy want to kill the Potter line" to "what made Lily special enough to be of use to Voldy?" Maybe it goes back to her eyes[/b] - Maybe she was a seer (as Harry seems to be in some of his dreams), and would be useful as a slave.

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Nine - Feb 3, 2003 3:49 pm (#70 of 300)
That's possible, but then why didn't he Stun Lily, kill Harry, and then revive her for whatever was needed?

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Mattew Bates - Feb 3, 2003 4:11 pm (#71 of 300)
That question stands even outside of this theory, Nine. Impatience? Bloodlust? A lack of thinking things through?

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Nine - Feb 4, 2003 5:53 pm (#72 of 300)
The mistakes aren't just preventable, they're stupid. Moldy Voldie is strangely lacking in common sense, even for an evil dictator. But he doesn't seem to me like the type to be impatient. He waited for nine or ten months to be restored to his body so that he could use Harry specifically to do so.

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Snitch Veela - Feb 5, 2003 6:43 pm (#73 of 300)
"Wormtail, Wormtail." Said the voice silkily. "Why would I kill you? I killed Bertha because I had to." Maybe Voldy doesn't have a love for murder. Maybe he's not as bad as he seems. Maybe he just isn't afraid of killing someone who stands in his way. (Not literally, metaphorically.) Now let’s look at the situation. He didn't need to kill Lily, obviously. For some reason, he only needed James and Harry dead. Lily tried to thwart him, so she died.

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Farquhar - Feb 9, 2003 3:32 am (#74 of 300)
While it's never been told (yet), I get the impression that James and Lily were some sort of special agent, or maybe actual Aurors. Whatever the case, I'm guessing that she showed him some mercy in a previous encounter (like Harry did with Peter). "Step aside, girl [while I murder your kid!]" was his ham-handed attempt to repay the debt.

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Waiting for Phoenix - Feb 9, 2003 8:19 am (#75 of 300)
I think Harry was the main target because he was to get the brother wand to Voldemort's and that killing off one of the family members would allow insurance that none of their offspring would get the wand. I think he simply chose James because he is a full blood wizard.

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Mattew Bates - Feb 14, 2003 3:07 pm (#80 of 300)
I have some related questions[/b] - why didn't Lily try any spells on Voldie when he barged in to kill Harry? Was she aware of the power her sacrifice would have? Was non-agression a key part of it? Did she even have her wand?

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Nine - Feb 15, 2003 8:57 am (#82 of 300)
"Expelliarmus!" or "Accio wand!" and Lily and her wand are separated.

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Susan An - Feb 23, 2003 7:39 am (#97 of 300)
It's just a theory that I heard from someone else, that Harry is the true heir of Gryffindor, the way Voldemort is the true heir of Slytherin. The way the Potters were from Godric's Hollow, and Harry being a Leo the star sign were some of the evidence backing the theories. Perhaps Voldemort's aim was to rid of all Gryffindor's heirs, as they posed some kind of threat to Voldemort. Maybe there was some way that Gryffindor heirs could get rid of the Slytherin heir the way no one else could... and Lily, being from a muggle family, obviously is not from the Gryffindor line, so perhaps he wasn't interested in Killing her.

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Nine - Feb 23, 2003 9:39 am (#98 of 300)
What gives you the impression that a muggle-born couldn't be the Heir of Gryffindor? For all we know, Gryffindor's child/children was/were Squibs, and Lily was the first in the family since then that was a spellcaster.

I think the relationship and Heir of Gryffindor theories have been done to death as well, but if you insist on them, there is no reason why Lily couldn't be a reason for Harry to be Gryffindor's heir.

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Olivia Wood - Feb 23, 2003 10:09 am (#99 of 300)
Except the fact that Voldemort didn't want to kill her. If we assume Harry was Heir of Gryffindor through Lily, why didn't Voldemort immediately kill her too? What would stop her from having another heir? But if Harry was Heir of Gryffindor through James, once James is dead, there's no reason to kill Lily.

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schoff - Feb 23, 2003 12:58 pm (#101 of 300)
I've yet to be convinced that Voldie was after both Harry and James. I think James was downstairs and in Voldie's way to get to Harry. The only way Voldie could get to Harry (upstairs) was to go through James. Lily, on the other hand, was right in front of Harry. All Voldie had to do there is push her aside. I've always got the impression Lily and James' death were incidental compared to Harry, who was the real target. James died because he dueled with Voldie (GoF), and Voldie either couldn't resist the temptation or knew this is how James would react. He may have known he was better at duelling than James, making the outcome a foregone conclusion.

James doesn't seem to me to be the type to beg for a life. He probably thought his only chance to save Harry was to try and kill Voldemort, whereas Lily tried to beg to spare Harry's life. She didn't directly confront him, like James did. If they knew James was also a target, wouldn't Lily try and protect him too?

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Cezar Salem - Feb 23, 2003 6:39 pm (#102 of 300)
I think that Voldemort offered to spare Lily on Pettigrews’ or some other death eater order, maybe even Snape who also studied at the same time as Lily . Leading to Snape’s hating Voldemort because of his betrayal and thus leading him to change sides. This theory is even stronger when you think about how much he hated James... And I think schoff is wrong in saying that lily would have protected James if she knew he was also the target. Here are some reasons.

1 The mothers love for a son is much greater than for a husband

2 She would be more likely to protect harry because he was a baby and had no way to protect himself. James on the other hand was a full grown wizard and would be able to put up a fight.

3 It is also to my belief that James was a more powerful wizard than Lily so if anyone had to protect someone it would be James protecting Lily ( as he bravely tired to do.)

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Jimmy Bell - Feb 23, 2003 10:34 pm (#104 of 300)
Listen to my logic. The only reason I can think of why Voldemort would spare a mudblood is that he wanted to use her. The only way she would be useful to him alive is as a hostage. I now think that he killed James because James was in the way of his kidnapping Lily. The reason why he wanted to kill Harry was another example of 'kill the spare.'

The only person he was unwilling to face in combat was Dumbledore. So instead of challenging Dumbledore he operates as a terrorist: he holds Lily hostage. The usual ultimatum: surrender your wand or I torture Lily.

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azi - Feb 24, 2003 1:15 pm (#106 of 300)
Good idea but she might have known something that would be useful to him like with Bertha Jorkins. He could torture Lily to get the info. and send her mad pretty quickly I would guess.

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Mattew Bates - Feb 25, 2003 10:22 pm (#114 of 300)
"The only way she would be useful to him alive is as a hostage." Not to be pugilistic, Jimmy, but I'm sure Voldemort could have had several more uses for Lily than as a hostage. In forced servitude for some rare ability, as a unique source of spell components, for some knowledge that only she had... the list goes on. You've run logic around the yard coming to that conclusion, but hardly exhausted it.

Be that as it may, one possible use of her is as a hostage. Since her only living relatives were Muggles, she could only be of any use to her friends, or perhaps her employers. Maybe she taught at Hogwarts, and Voldie felt he could exploit Dumbledore that way.

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honey dutchess - Feb 27, 2003 8:53 am (#122 of 300)
Wait, if Harry was the "spare" he, Voldemort, needn't have bothered in killing Lily. If Lily was to be held hostage Voldemort could have subdued her instead of killing her as he did. Wouldn't both Lily and Harry mean more to Dumbledore (assuming the theory that Voldy was after the Potters because of Dumbledore) and wouldn't this mean Voldemort would have more leverage?

If Harry was the "spare" Voldemort could have killed Harry later, couldn't he? Simply take Lily and Harry now pretend like he is not going to kill Harry and then off the little one later.

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Karl Jackson - Feb 28, 2003 2:28 pm (#129 of 300)
As I read it, Voldemort did not "offer" to spare Lily. Her death was of no consequence to him; his only concern was for her to get out of his line of fire, in order for him to destroy his primary target- namely Harry. But she, like any devoted mother, refused to stand aside and stop shielding Harry, offering everything she had if only he, Voldemort, would spare her son. So he cast Avada Kedavra simply to remove what he saw as a pesky and otherwise trivial obstruction.

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Jimmy Bell - Feb 28, 2003 11:15 pm (#134 of 300)
Yes, it is possible that he wanted to kill James and Harry and didn't care about Lily, but it's uncharacteristic of Voldemort to waste his breath asking Lily to stand aside and telling himself that she needn't have died instead of just killing her to begin with.

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NoVeil4Me - Mar 2, 2003 8:54 am (#144 of 300)
Last night in chat, a new person named Brian put forth a theory that actually kinda makes sense and would explain why Voldemort offered to spare Lily.
Brian put forth that Severus Snape is an anagram of....Perseus Evans and that he, Snape, is actually a brother to both Lily and Petunia. If this were the case, it would certainly explain the following points:

1. That Voldemort offered to spare Lily as a favor to a devoted follower.

2. That Petunia is so anti magic and hostile towards it because she is a squib in a wizarding family. This would also support the contention that Petunia caused the wineglass in Marge's hand to explode, not Harry. Of course, this goes on to explain why the MoM never sent a letter of warning to Harry about using magic at that point. Petunia, as an adult, is under no such rule.

3. If it were true, it very well could be Petunia who will come into magic later in life.

4. Snape's hatred of James, which I think goes beyond a boyhood disliking, can be explained because James failed to protect his younger sister and she ended up dead.

5. Harry, again, is caught in the crossfire. His perhaps Uncle dislikes him because he so resembles his father. His Aunt Petunia dislikes him because of his mother. Poor kid can't win, can he?

Okay, now for the naysayers who will trot out Dumbledore and Harry's only living relatives. Semantics, semantics, semantics. JKR is very careful in her choice of words at this point. She does not write the Dursleys are his only living relatives, she writes they are his only living family. Same thing? Not according to the dictionary

Family: a group of individuals living under one roof and usually under one head

Relative: a person connected with another by blood

Going by this....Snape could be a relative of Harry's but not a family while the Durselys fit both the definition of a family and a relative. We have specific dates Lily is at Hogwarts but Snape's dates are not as specific. If he was an older brother, they could be in the same year if they were born close enough together. They were in different houses but we know that not even twins are always sorted into the same house.

So, it is a possibility, albeit a very slim one, that Snape loved Lily alright but in a familial sense. Voldy offered to spare the beloved sister of one of his own.

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NoVeil4Me - Mar 2, 2003 5:59 pm (#153 of 300)
It makes more sense than Snape was in love with Lily in a romantic sense and if it were to be true, would confirm some other theories.

There are holes in the theory...like why would Perseus Evans change his name to Severus Snape? The only justification I can come up with is that we know he was interested in the Dark Arts prior to coming to Hogwarts. Perhaps his family was not pleased with that and to avoid embarassing Lily, he changed his name. A very weak argument though but possible.

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Didi The Magnificent - Jun 18, 2003 8:53 am (#292 of 300)
Anyway, what if Voldemort offered to spare Lily because he actually put her under the imperious curse? If he did, it would be in the same way he put Harry under the curse while they were dueling. As he said to Harry —paraphrased— "You don't want me to do that again, do you?" I could see him toying with Lily, saying to her "You don't want me to kill you. Just stand aside." Then she would be forced to watch her son die (even if she was sort of unaware) before being killed. This could be Voldemort toying with his prey before he kills her, much the same way that he attempted to toy with Harry in GoF. Voldemort may have become exceedingly angry when he discovered Lily fighting the imperious curse.

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Sly Girl - Jun 18, 2003 10:05 am (#293 of 300)
As far as we know, no one really fights the Imperious curse. Harry does and even he has problems with it. I seem to recall that Lily was screaming, "No, not Harry!" or some such thing... I don't think she would be doing that if she were under a curse.

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