Imperio and Who is Imperioed (Condensed Thread)

[Elanor]

Imperio and Who is Imperioed (Condensed Thread)

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor

Detail Seeker - Dec 16, 2003 2:50 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 11:40 pm

Olivia Wood - Apr 25, 2003 7:58 pm
Sorry for starting a new thread, but I couldn't find a place to put this. I used the search function and even looked up Imperius to make sure I spelled it right.

Ok, so, the Imperius Curse was supposed to have been use a lot during VWI. Many witches and wizards came back to the good side after Voldie's downfall claiming to have been under it, including Lucius Malfoy, although he was faking it. We also know that a person can be kept under the Imperius curse for an extended period of time, since Crouch Sr. was under it for months and Crouch Jr. for years. We know it isn't easily detectable, since Crouch Sr. was under it standing right beside Dumbledore, and Dumbledore never knew. We know that a person can be under it and simply be told to 'act normally.' I think it is a given that this curse will be very important to the plot of future books, now that Voldy is risen, and his Reign of Terror is about to be repeated.

So the question I ask is who was/is/will be controlled by the Imperius curse, by whom, and for what purpose?

I think there is a lot of hidden meaning in the importance of Moody's first lesson in GoF. When Ron volunteers 'the Imperius curse' as one of the Unforgivable Curses, Moody sais "Ah, yes,... Your father *would* know that one. Gave the Ministry a lot of trouble at one time, the Imperius Curse." (p.212 GoP US edit.) I got the impression that he was talking about a specific event that happened to Mr. Weasley personally, rather thant just the general trouble the curse caused the Ministry. So was Arthur Weasley put under the Curse? Was it someone that he knew? And why does Arthur have such high an opinion of Moody? Maybe Moody helped Arthur out of that specific bit of trouble with the Imperius Curse, and Crouch Jr. heard the story while interrogating Moody, and dropped vague hints to remain in character. Maybe Moody even saved Arthur's life, which would explain why he was so eager to come help him at the beginning of GoF.

Later during the school year we see Moody casting the Imperius Curse on the students. I think it has been asked somewhere why Moody would want to teach Harry to combat the Curse. I don't think he actually wanted to teach him to resist it, more like try to put him under it so as to have control over him during the Triwizard tasks. Unfortunately that didn't work out. Ron didn't have as much luck with the curse as Harry did, though. Is that foreshadowing? Having a best friend susceptible to the Imperius does not bode well for Harry. I don't think Moody actually did cast the curse on anyone else, since I assume they would have gone back to normal once he was kissed and would have noticed and said something. Although technically Crouch Jr. is still alive so it's possible his spells haven't all worn off...

Can Malfoy or some other Jr. Death Eater cast the Imperius Curse? Would the Hogwars staff know if someone tried? They didn't know when Hermione & Co. brewed Polyjuice potion in the girls' bathroom, so it doesn't seem as if Hogwarts is that supervised.

It seems to me the Imperius Curse will be the next major plot-twister-thingy, like Animagi and Polyjuice Potion have been in the past. It already plays a major role in GoF, and I don't think Voldy and Friends are just going to stop using it. Bagman might have been under it the whole time in GoF, he did also try to help Harry, even though he didn't do any good and Fred and George gave that excuse about the goblins. Whoever cast it on him could have come up with that. (Probably not Crouch, since he didn't mention it in his story. That would imply some other loyal Death Eater...)

[Elanor]

Olivia Wood - Apr 25, 2003 8:00 pm (#1 of 20)

Anyway, I personally think it is very probable that Lucius is Imperio'ing Fudge at this very moment. There is a practically limitless number of characters who could be very easily placed under the Imperious Curse by the various unpunished Death Eaters. What if Sirius Black was caught by some Death Eater and Imperio'ed? Sure, he's supposed to be a powerful wizard, but so was Crouch, and if Voldemort himself performed the curse I don't think he'd be able to counteract it. What if Snape got Imperio'ed?

It could be anyone. And I'm not being paranoid, either. At least not any more paranoid than the Harry Potter characters should be.

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Madam Poppy - Apr 25, 2003 8:30 pm (#2 of 20)

I think that Rita Skeeter may be under the Imperius Curse. She went from praising Harry their Hero to making the Wizarding World doubt him. Why the big turn around? Could Rita have just been lying low and watching for an opportunity to discredit Harry? Does she have an agenda?

But, could Rita be someone else? NOT another polyjuice person. Just a simple Muggle disguise. Her "rigid curls" sound like a wig. The "heavy-jawed face, "thick fingers" and "surprisingly strong grip" sound very mannish to me. When Hermione lets Rita out of the jar, she might look to see if "Rita" has a 5 o'clock shadow.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 25, 2003 11:03 pm (#3 of 20)

5 o'clock shadow! Too funny Poppy, too funny! BTW, I think Rita's quill gave her away with the line "whose savage quill has punctured many inflated reputations" (GoF Am.paperback Ch. 18 pg.304); she likes building people up and bringing them crashing back down.

Hey Olivia, great question and yes you are being paranoid, but for good reason. I think we can see why fear and suspision ran rampant during VWI.

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QuatreR1 - Apr 26, 2003 4:06 pm (#4 of 20)

I think that Rita's turn-around was based upon his dislike of her. Harry didn't really hide the fact that he didn't like her, though he tried to be vaguely polite. He still openly disliked her. Not to mention Ron and Hermione disliked her. Also, Harry is very close to Dumbledore, and he is possibly the least fond of Rita out of all the characters we've seen. The turnaround could've also been a lash at Dumbly through his favorite student.

Olivia, you make a great point. I think that the Imperius could be more important in future books. Book four was probably just our introduction to them. Each may possibly be revisited in the next three books individually. That would make sense, though I think that they've also been adressed quite vividly so far, especially Avada Kedavra Eh *shrugs* who knows?

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Kevin YouBustSlug - Apr 26, 2003 4:39 pm (#5 of 20)

Along with these thoughts on the Imperius curse is the ease with which Harry is able to cast is off. Not even Voldemort was able to keep Harry under the Imperius curse. It must have come as quite a shock to Voldy when Harry said: "I WON'T" Later, when their wands are doing battle, we read: "...Voldemort who looked astonished, and almost fearful.." I think that in that scene Voldemort is realizing that Harry is the more powerful wizard. Is Harry's ability to cast off the Imperius curse one of the powers which he got from Voldemort when he got the scar. Perhaps we will learn that the power of the Imperius curse is proportional to the power of the wizard casting it, and the power to cast it off is proportional to the power of the one on whom it has been cast. Barty Crouch Sr. may have been more powerful than Barty Crouch Jr., but not so powerful as Voldemort. About all we know as of the end of book four is that virtually no one is to be trusted. I strongly recommend reading The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter for more on this subject.

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Sly Girl - Apr 26, 2003 11:04 pm (#6 of 20)

I think the fact that we learn about Harry's apparent ability to fight the curse better than the others will definitely come into play. Maybe it's not something Voldemort specific, but something that's within Harry himself. Despite all the training to the contrary by the Dursley's, Harry has a strong sense of self and perhaps that is the clue to throwing off the curse.

As for the Rita thing- I too thought she did a bit of a 'turn around' but figured it was because she wasn't getting what she wanted from Harry so she went the other way to generate more readers. The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to HP seems to think that Rita is more than she appears to be- in fact, they draw attention to the fact that she is described in a 'mannish' way- with large hands and other non feminine traits. Could be worth something down the line...

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Olivia Wood - Apr 27, 2003 9:31 pm (#7 of 20)

Do you think Harry could cast the Imperius Curse on Voldemort?

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Sly Girl - Apr 27, 2003 11:54 pm (#8 of 20)

Not as a 14-15 year old boy. He is getting more powerful, but with a fully reborn Voldemort, I'd say... maybe not until he's older...maybe say, book 7? (just kidding, really- no clue what age a wizard comes into their full power at...)

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Rosmerta - Apr 28, 2003 1:29 pm (#9 of 20)

I doubt Harry, or anyone for that matter, will ever be able to cast the Imperius curse on Voldy. If he took so many precautions to be able to survive Avada Kedarva, I'm sure he's also able to avert the other 2 unforgivable curses. I do think that the fact that Harry could resist the Imperius from Voldy, one of the most powerful wizards ever, is saying something very important though...

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Cliff Hamaker - Apr 28, 2003 2:51 pm (#10 of 20)

I thought they were curses that couldn't be avoided. That's why we must be CONSTANTLY VIGILANT!!! And I assume that they cannot be blocked either, or Moody/ Barty Jr. would have said something in class. Though, knowing Voldy, I'm sure he has some sort of protection.

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timrew - Apr 28, 2003 2:57 pm (#11 of 20)

Yes. I mean, what's to stop a wizard being Avada Kedavra'd in the back. We all know that Malfoy is not averse to this behaviour, so I presume Lucius and all the other dark wizards are too.

I know Voldemort gave Harry a chance at the climax of GOF, but I think that was only because he was sure he was capable of killing him. Will he be so merciful next time.....I don't think so.

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W J - Apr 28, 2003 3:47 pm (#12 of 20)

Voldemort said that he was mortal again when he got his new body in GoF. Maybe he can't survive the AK curse now and maybe he is vulnerable to Imperious and Crucio. We don't know yet.

I agree with ScrambledEggs (now Timrew) that the Death Eaters are not averse to cursing people when their back is turned.

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Penny L. - Apr 28, 2003 3:53 pm (#13 of 20)

I don't believe that Voldemort can "conquer death". He doesn't have all of his anti-death precautions anymore. I thought that was expressed, but I must be thinking that I read somthing that I didn't.

I was under the impression that Avada Kedavra could be avoided, but not blocked. Therefore, it would be possible to duck the spell.

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Denise S. - Apr 28, 2003 5:19 pm (#14 of 20)

Yeah, Penny, didn't Harry do that as he was running back to the trophy at the end of GoF?

I think the next book will deal less with Voldemort directly, since he *would* be off trying to get all those anti-death precautions back. He would be esp. worried since Harry seems to be evenly matched with Voldemort's powers, and I doubt that once he's done that he'll be susceptible to Crucio or Imperio (AK I'm not sure about).

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Silithos - Apr 28, 2003 5:37 pm (#15 of 20)

It is possible that we won't see much of Voldemort for the next two books if he is trying to recover those death protection spells. After all, he spent all the years between his graduation of Hogwarts and his comeback as Voldemort making spells, and delving into the dark arts. Plus, he said in GoF, "..."it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked." (GoF US HB Pg. 653) He obviously doesn't know which experiment or combination of experiments worked. So, if he wants to be sure, he must try them all again. From the way he said it, there were more than two or three, so that could take a while

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Mrs. Black - Apr 28, 2003 8:27 pm (#16 of 20)

Harry, I think, could cast the imperious curse on Voldie, unless he too is able to throw it off, but I don't think he would. Too big a deal was made of criticizing the policy of letting Auror's using the Unforgivable Curses on Death Eaters. I think one of the important themes we're going to see coming up is winning the war without stooping to the level of the Death Eaters.

"Be careful, lest in fighting the dragon you become the dragon." Nietzsche

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Olivia Wood - Apr 29, 2003 6:27 pm (#17 of 20)

Yeah, Harry probably wouldn't know how to, or want to cast Imperio on anybody...

I also think that we won't see a lot of Voldemort directly for the next two books, because if we did, then Harry would either have to die, or JK would have to resort to Voldemort underestimating Harry once again, and I don't think Voldie's that stupid. Next time he sees him, he's just going to kill him. And he'll make sure he has at least his partial immortality back before trying anything. Although he did sound obsessively insistant on killing Harry himself in GoF, so who knows?

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Denise S. - Apr 29, 2003 7:17 pm (#18 of 20)

A big argument against Harry using Imperio is the fact that he wouldn't have anyone to learn it from! Not from any dark wizards, as they would be out to get Harry anyhow, and I doubt even Dumbledore would want Harry to be taught the unforgivable curses.

Olivia, Voldemort is obsessive, but I think he's the kind of obsessive who stalks in the shadows, from a distance, waiting for the right moment when all the conditions are right. I think he'll be able to wait two books. The important question is, will we be able to wait as well??? ;-)

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Marlene Baerman - May 1, 2003 9:44 pm (#19 of 20)

Denise, that's a very good question. Personally, I'm not sure I'll be able to wait that long. I've never put any deep thought into when Harry will encounter Voldie directly again, having just finished GoF a few days ago, but it makes the most sense that Voldie would go into hiding for the next one or two books. Although I can definitely see Lucius & Co. volunteering to do the dirty work for him. Even though they might not try to kill Harry, I can most certainly see them try to make his life as miserable as possible.

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Jackie !Fast - May 2, 2003 6:21 pm (#20 of 20)

I find it highly unlikely that Harry will ever cast the Imperio curse. However, in pressing circumstances, perhaps Dumbledore will. I've been led under the impression that Dumbledore knows a thing or two about the Dark Arts but chooses to use that knowledge to combat evil. I'm not saying it's likely, but it could happen.

As to Mr. Weasley being under the Imperius curse during VW1, that sounds like it could be very possible. With another identity masking device (like polyjuice and animagi), the possiblities are endless! Surely someone ion a later book will end up not as they seem by fault to Imperius.