HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05)

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Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:15 am

HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05)

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "Archived Thread to be Worked" folder of the WC forum. Elanor

TGF - Jun 28, 2004 12:34 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 9:48 am
-->I changed the title of this thread from 'Book 6 Title! *JKR.com spoilers*' to 'HP6: the Half Blood Prince'.<-- SE Jones


I'm not going to put the book in the subject line since people enjoy solving puzzles and getting rewards here... But Kip can edit it once everyone's had their fun.

But the title of the book is... "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The obvious questions now arise... who is the 'Half Blood Prince'? The obvious answer would appear to be Tom Riddle. I would to say off the bat that I don't think it can be Harry. That would make the title into 'Harry Potter and the Harry Potter'. The title alone establishes this Half-Blooded Prince as being a distinct entity from that of Harry.

The next question we might ask is who else could it be? I'm sure this title will bring out countless theories... Seamus Finnigan is a Half-Blood for instance, I'm sure many people will have thoughts on that.

Finally, we might speculate on what the plot may actually be...

This is the biggest HP news since OotP in my opinion. Things are certainly looking up!



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Last edited by Elanor on Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:29 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor
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HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05) Empty HP6: the Half Blood Prince (Jun 04-Mar 05) (Post 1 to 50)

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:53 am

S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 12:39 pm (#1 of 2923)
Let it snow!
I don't know, I kind of like the "Harry Potter and the Harry Potter" idea....

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Mare - Jun 28, 2004 12:42 pm (#2 of 2923)

Okay I officialy state that I believe this to be yet another joke (this time from JKR herself) and if I turn out to be wrong, slam me on the head with a fruitbowl!

For now, off course I will join in the discussion, because that is after all what we do best here...

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Chris. - Jun 28, 2004 12:45 pm (#3 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I haven't got on the site yet but I oculdn't resist looking in this thread! I know I know ...

Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince?

A bit of a let down for me. I was thinking something more... interesting.

Like Marè, I'm a bit cautious of believing it myself.

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 12:49 pm (#4 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Edited by Denise P. Jun 29, 2004 9:06 am
It's not fake! It's on the site, and after such an excellent and difficult puzzle, she wouldn't just throw something fake out for a 'gotcha!!' effect. Rowling isn't someone who's needlessly cruel to her fans.

I'm pretty sure when she said she'd have 'fun' with her fans from it, she meant throwing out scraps of information and watching the reaction. Not putting up hard puzzles and then placing a fake title behind so that she can say 'haha fooled you!' at a later date.

So it's real!!!

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Chris. - Jun 28, 2004 12:52 pm (#5 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Hmmm... I was only saying I was being cautious after the Pillar of Storge title.

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 12:55 pm (#6 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I know, I know... I guess that reply is a bit of an overreaction... I'm just somewhat excited about the whole thing, to say the least.

New title = book soon = bliss.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 12:59 pm (#7 of 2923)

Let it snow!
To say the least....

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Mare - Jun 28, 2004 1:00 pm (#8 of 2923)

A bit of an overreaction???


but seriously, I understand why you want it to be real TGF, and who knows, maybe the fact that we have been given all these strange bits of information lately means she is almost finished writing it...
But it still has to be edited... (not to be a spoilsport or something)

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 1:02 pm (#9 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I keep thinking about the fact that it was, in fact, once a title for Book 2. What could this mean? CoS dealt highly with Voldemort's early life as Tom Riddle Jr and JKR did say we'd hear more about the death of Tom's mum....

What do you think?

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 1:02 pm (#10 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
6-12 months or so is much much less time to wait than 'sometime in the future'.

Edit: Sounds like a good place to start Jones... Does anyone remember my post in the Voldemort thread about Riddle and Grindewald? I think that we might be finding out a lot more about Voldemort's past in the near future.

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azi - Jun 28, 2004 1:04 pm (#11 of 2923)

Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
I like the idea of more about Voldie but I don't like the supposed title. Bit boring.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 1:09 pm (#12 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Found the quote I was looking for.

World Day Chat, March 2004:
mnich: Was Voldemort born evil?
JK Rowling replies -> I don't believe that anybody was born evil. You will find out more about the circumstances of his birth in the next book.

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Penny Lane. - Jun 28, 2004 1:12 pm (#13 of 2923)

But its on a random piece of paper. It doesn't specifically state: The next title will be....

It could just be a discarded/working title.

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Jim the Potty - Jun 28, 2004 1:15 pm (#14 of 2923)

President of the Potties, forum member since the beginning, never online
Edited by Jun 28, 2004 1:15 pm
Probably the piece of paper will later say

Harry Potter and the Halfblood Prince...is just another rumour

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Penny Lane. - Jun 28, 2004 1:18 pm (#15 of 2923)

That would be SO mean. Why can't she just tell us straightforward like.

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Julia. - Jun 28, 2004 1:22 pm (#16 of 2923)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Sounds great to finally have a title, but until such time as JKR says "the title of book six is..." I'm not going to believe anything.

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azi - Jun 28, 2004 1:25 pm (#17 of 2923)

Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
I agree with Julia in not believing it until it's confirmed. However, the puzzle to get to those few words certainly brightened up my otherwise dull life looking at Environmental Science courses for university!

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Penny Lane. - Jun 28, 2004 1:26 pm (#18 of 2923)

I say in another month or so, we'll get another piece of paper. And that one will probably say something else.

I just don't think its very likely to be a title. The Half Blood Prince just sound so.. lame.

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azi - Jun 28, 2004 1:29 pm (#19 of 2923)

Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
We could always hope it is just a chapter title. Like the opening title of Book 6 could be a flashback about Voldies beginnings/birth entitled The Half Blood Prince? The only problem with that theory is of the preceeding words 'Harry Potter and...'.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 1:34 pm (#20 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Lame or not, it was once going to be the title for Book 2....

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 28, 2004 1:41 pm (#21 of 2923)

Edited by Denise P. Jun 29, 2004 9:06 am
It's not fake! It's on the site, and after such an excellent and difficult puzzle, she wouldn't just throw something fake out for a 'gotcha!!' effect. Rowling isn't someone who's needlessly cruel to her fans. TGF

Sorry if this is very obvious, TGF, but your link is a screen capture from the site after you, yourself, solved the puzzle? Or is it something someone sent to you or you found?

I don't think Rowling is "needlessly" cruel or even cruel. But her site is very new; maybe she has a personal sense of humor (as opposed to her writing) that we won't exactly appreciate.

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 1:48 pm (#22 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I found it myself Lupin, and then took a screenshot and posted it on my website. For instructions on how to get it, go to the JKR.com thread and read up.

Guys, if you think she's lying about this, why is she not lying about everything else? Oh my! Maybe Snape *is* a vampire!!

It would be so needlessly mean if she were to do something like that. Like, seriously, it would.

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Mare - Jun 28, 2004 1:51 pm (#23 of 2923)

she isn't lying because she has never said to us that that is indeed the title of the book.

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 1:55 pm (#24 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
That would still be a rather mean-spirited trick. She knows what we do when this kind of thing happens, and to play around with that intentionally is just plain old unfair.

Imagine you have a kid, and you promise him a nice big present if he behaves. He does so, and lo and behold he's given a huge box in wrapping paper. He tears it open, looks inside, only to find a lot of confetti and a note saying 'HAH! SUCKER!!!!!'... I don't think many people would do that.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 1:57 pm (#25 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Mare: she isn't lying because she has never said to us that that is indeed the title of the book.

Very true, Mare....

Well, if we get another piece of paper with a different title on it next month, and a new title the month after that, then we'll know this one isn't it. Until then, I say we speculate, just because it's fun and we have a lot of time on our hands, about what the title could mean, why she might reuse a title, etc.

What do you all think?

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 2:04 pm (#26 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Aha! I now think I can settle it.

Look at the FAQ. The question "What is the title of Book 6 and 7?" has been changed to "What is the title of Book 7?"

That should satisfy the naysayers, shouldn't it?

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Mare - Jun 28, 2004 2:07 pm (#27 of 2923)

Touché, point for you TGF.

I read that one, but didn't even realize what it could mean...

I'm still not totally convinced, partly becuase I think the title is... hhhm, how did Prongs put it? cheesy.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 2:09 pm (#28 of 2923)

Let it snow!
It could also be yet another working title as it was for CoS....

But, real title or working title, it gives us some info on the storyline at least....

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 2:12 pm (#29 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I think it's okay... I guess Prince invokes like castles and whatnot for some people, but I really see it as more of a simple title. Bismarck (the great Chancellor of late 19th century Germany) was often referred to as 'Prince Bismarck' in diplomatic dispatches for instance, and he wasn't an heir to any throne.

Don't have to be a son of a king to be a Prince.

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 28, 2004 2:16 pm (#30 of 2923)

I found it myself Lupin, and then took a screenshot and posted it on my website. For instructions on how to get it, go to the JKR.com thread and read up. -- TGF

Fair enough TGF. Until proven otherwise, I'm considering that to be the title and agree that it would be pretty cruel of JKR to be playing a joke.

All that said, "Half Blood Prince"...mmm..I'll have to ponder that before I make a decision on the "lameness/cheesiness" question.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 2:17 pm (#31 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I too have other images conjured in my mind by the title. In terms of Voldemort, someone who thinks themself 'kingly' and is trying to ursurp power from the Ministry. In terms of Harry the possible 'Heir of Gryffindor' theory. But I never thought of castles or kings....

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MrsGump - Jun 28, 2004 2:29 pm (#32 of 2923)

If it was a working title for CoS, I'd have to go with finding out more about Tom Riddle in book 6. Or Harry finds a way to get back into the Chamber and finds.... ?

I'm also willing to go with this is a real title. It could be a chapter or a scrap, but there are many people (kids included) who might go to her site, but had not even heard the Storge rumor. It would be too mean to make it a total joke.

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 2:30 pm (#33 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Well, let's start with the basics.

Prince n.

1. A male member of a royal family other than the monarch, especially a son of the monarch.

2. 1. A man who is a ruler of a principality. 2. A hereditary male ruler; a king.

3. A nobleman of varying status or rank.

4. An outstanding man, especially in a particular group or class: a merchant prince.

Think of 4, perhaps.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 2:52 pm (#34 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I'm still leaning toward what the word can conjure in the mind than what it actually means, TGF....

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Gina R Snape - Jun 28, 2004 3:12 pm (#35 of 2923)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, Tom Riddle was the hereditary descendant of Salazar Slytherin, and a half-blood. So, the title makes me think this book will delve into Tom Riddle's background and perhaps the rise of the Dark Lord and death eaters. That could be very interesting indeed.

On the other hand, Harry seems like a half-blood prince himself. So perhaps this book will show the rise of evil, and how close Harry's story could be to that of Tom Riddle. :shrugs:

Then again, maybe Snape is really a half-blood prince who owns a luxurious estate somewhere waiting for me.

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Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 3:41 pm (#36 of 2923)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Well, I must say I liked "Harry Potter and the Pillar of Storge" better!

"Half-Blood Prince" does seem kind of lame to me, too. I guess because I just never thought of "royalty" in the Harry Potter world. There were witches and wizards and unicorns and giants and centaurs and all that, but no kings / queens / princes.

Lots of blood, though ... the whole "mudblood / pureblood" theme, "blood" protection offered by Petunia, the "blood" transfusion Harry unwillingly provided to Voldemort, the "Bloody Baron", the silver unicorn's "blood", the "blood" Scabbers left on the linens when he faked being eaten by Crookshanks, etc...etc...

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Star Crossed - Jun 28, 2004 3:42 pm (#37 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Maybe it's both Harry and Tom Riddle, fighting each other, so there is only one half-blood prince, instead of two, just like the prophecy.

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Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 3:43 pm (#38 of 2923)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
"But in essence, divided?"

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 3:46 pm (#39 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Royalty? I never saw it as actual royalty before. As I said before, it lends to the mind an image of an ursurper more than an actual prince, especially since it may be alluding to Voldemort.

Or perhaps the old "Heir of" theories....

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 3:55 pm (#40 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Again, it can't be Harry... The book isn't going to be called 'Harry Potter and the Harry Potter'!

Blood, I will agree with Pince, will play some important role in the story. Maybe it's worth remembering how Harry called out to Bellatrix scornfully that Voldemort was a half-blood, much to her dismay. Maybe that will lead to something?

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Ginevra - Jun 28, 2004 4:00 pm (#41 of 2923)

I also don't think that the prince part has anything to do with actual royalty. I think TGF's definition #4 is most plausible. As to who it is referring to, I'd have to say either Voldemort or Harry... the most obvious choices.

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Green Eyes - Jun 28, 2004 4:33 pm (#42 of 2923)

I think IF this is the real title of book 6 then it could refer to Harry...remember when Dumbledore is explaining things to Harry at the end of OOTP? He talks about how living at the Dursleys wasn't ideal but he came to Hogwarts in relatively good shape or something to that effect...I distinctly remember him saying..."not some pampered prince..." or something along those lines...I don't have my book in front of me at this moment.

Your thoughts on this...of course it could mean Tom Riddle. I personally think the key to this whole thing is comparison of Harry to Tom. They have both been raised in basically the same way...orphaned, abused by muggles...why does one grow up to be human and the other a monster?

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Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 4:46 pm (#43 of 2923)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
You're remembering it right, Green Eyes, Dumbledore said "You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped for under the circumstances."

Could he have meant "...not a pampered little prince (like Tom Riddle was?)??? I agree that it's a comparison of Harry to Tom. I don't think we know for sure that Tom was abused by muggles, though, do we?

I agree with TGF or whomever said earlier that Harry can't be the half-blood prince, or else the title is "Harry Potter and the Harry Potter."

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 4:49 pm (#44 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Do we know for sure that James is pureblooded? We don't do we? Hm....

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Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 4:56 pm (#45 of 2923)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I thought we did, but I don't have the proof in front of me. I thought it was from an interview or something.

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 4:56 pm (#46 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Tom and Harry were not raised in the same way. Harry might have been living in a not-so-nice place, but Tom was living in a Muggle Orphanage in London while it was being bombed by Nazis. Bit different there. It is similar in that neither had a fun time in their youths however.

I don't think 'pampered little prince' applies to Riddle at all, Pince. It certainly applies to his father, but Riddle himself was anything but pampered I don't believe.

SE Jones: Well, I believe it's agreed that mudblood + pureblood = half blood... What exactly would mudblood + mudblood make? Quarter-blood? Or just plain old mudblood...

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Marye Lupin - Jun 28, 2004 5:23 pm (#47 of 2923)

"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
Could somebody please tell me where it was mentioned as a rejected CoS title? I don't remember that.

thanks

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Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 5:25 pm (#48 of 2923)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
From what we know of Riddle's home life, he doesn't seem to have been pampered, you're right. He seems to have been a prince at Hogwarts, though -- head boy, won lots of awards, etc. Maybe not "pampered" though. I don't know, I just think of the word "spoiled" when I think of Tom Riddle -- meaning that he seems like he would tend to throw a fit if he didn't get his way. Don't know why I picture that. You're right, "pampered" is probably not the right word; I was more thinking "spoiled."

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 5:34 pm (#49 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I wasn't suggesting that James was a muggle-born, TGF. There are other classifications in the Wizarding world. Half-blood+Muggle-born also seems to equal half-blood in the wizard view of things.....

EDIT: I'm not aware of any interview that gives James's family as purebloods (though I wouldn't be surprised). We have plenty of evidence of Lily being a Muggle-born but I'm not sure about James's heritage. We do know from interviews that we'll be finding out more about James's family....

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 5:40 pm (#50 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Well, two halves usually make a whole, but I don't know how many pure-bloodists would accept people with such 'poor' parentage.

Another thing worth mentioning is that these are all artificial distinctions... mud(or muggle if its preferred)/half/purebloodedness isn't something that Harry thinks of at all. Voldemort does however. Still, I can't see Voldemort giving himself a title like 'the Half-Blood Prince'

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Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:55 am

Diagon Nilly - Jun 28, 2004 5:41 pm (#51 of 2923)
Half-blood prince could be someone we haven't met yet. So far, her titles have introduced things that haven't been mentioned in previous books...Besides, it's not like her to be too obvious, as in "well, it's Voldy, of course."

TGF, you're brilliant by the way. I had this mental image of you trying to get behind that wall looking like your avatar while things are loading and going "ohpleaseohpleaseohplease..." ;D

And I think it would be awesome if she released a different title every month until she really decides to release it. It would keep things exciting on the forum, at the very least. But most likely, as TGF pointed out, this is the real deal since she changed the "Book 6 title?" question.

YAY! More speculation! Does this mean it's about a year until the release of Book 6?

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Hem Hem - Jun 28, 2004 5:47 pm (#52 of 2923)

TGF, you brought up a good point about the fact that only a "dark-side" person would think in terms of labelling someone as a half blood prince. Maybe I'm the only one out there, but I'm, starting to think of Grindelwald here. He was alive throughout all of young Voldemort's schooling, and the two of them probably interacted a bit.

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Marye Lupin - Jun 28, 2004 5:49 pm (#53 of 2923)

"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
Maybe it's Mark Evans? :-) -->I don't actually believe that. I think though that if Half-Blood Prince was a rejected book 2 title that Tom Riddle is really the only one who makes sense. It would at least have to be somebody who played a fairly important part in that book (Hey, maybe it's Malfoy-- wow think of the implications... :-) )

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 5:54 pm (#54 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Hem Hem: That's my pet theory, actually... take a look in the Voldemort thread, post number 461, for the Grindewald/Voldemort connections. I'm going to turn that into an essay soon and submit it to the Lexicon proper for possible posting.

Thanks Diagon Nilly, though a more accurate image would be me hunched over PS, on a desk that's much messier than JKR's, with a scrap of paper writing down attempted number combinations (which also contained a few diagrams of the wall), slowly being driven mad by the infernal barking on the site.

I'm surprised... doesn't ANYONE want to make a theory involving Seamus Finnigan? The moment I read the title I thought people would be all over that angle.

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Constance Vigilantia - Jun 28, 2004 5:55 pm (#55 of 2923)

I think that the identity of the "Half-Blood Prince" is rather obvious. Couple the round breaking report of "The Onion",

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

With the title and it all becomes clear.

It's is a clever overture to Prince William!

CV

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Constance Vigilantia - Jun 28, 2004 5:56 pm (#56 of 2923)

Just as a note to those who didn't get it: The last post was a joke...

CV

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Lady Kazuma - Jun 28, 2004 6:25 pm (#57 of 2923)

A bit behind the times, I think, but I've got to make a comment.

Those of you who think "Half Blood Prince" is lame... "Goblet of Fire," anyone?

It's not like the book was about the cup, anyway. While the first three did follow along that lines (the first is about the Stone, the second about the Chamber, the third about Sirius), the fourth was certainly not about a goblet, and fifth wasn't really about the Order of the Phoenix.

They did, however, play a part, so speculating is always very welcome.

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Makgraf - Jun 28, 2004 6:30 pm (#58 of 2923)

I don't know how revelent this is, but it's interesting that she picked "Prince" instead of any of the other titles of power (though I guess "Lord's" already taken).

Most of our contemporary titles of nobility have latin roots (though earl's Norse and lord sounds celtic "Laird?"). Prince is from the latin princeps, which means "First Citizen". Now, the fact that this could've been a title for Book 2 is strong support for it reffering to Riddle. But with what we know about Voldemort, first among equals doesn't really ring true.

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Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 6:43 pm (#59 of 2923)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I agree, Lady Kazuma, "Goblet of Fire" always kind of bothered me. The book really didn't have much to do with the goblet.

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Lady Kazuma - Jun 28, 2004 6:45 pm (#60 of 2923)

I've had a thought, so I'd better post it before I forget.

While I was pondering the title, an vision flashed into my head, and then was gone. The vision contained a little ring of Slytherin students surrounding poor young Tom Riddle, mocking him, and calling him the Half Blood Prince.

Upon reflection, this is what I've come up with: Slytherins, which are purebloods, according to the Sorting Hat, would not appreciate finding a Half Blood in their midst. I'm reminded of the reaction everyone had to Harry being a Parselmouth. Also, I'm reminded of "Weasley is Our King," coming from the Slytherins, and other similar occurences in the books.

If he were being made fun of for being Half Blood, it would be yet another reason to spur him into Dark Lordly-ness, to make himself equal with the purebloods. Of course, the other way to look at that is that he would hate the purebloods because of that. I go with the first, because I would think, by that time, he'd have already experienced enough misery with muggles to make him hate them forever, and want to be as wizardly as possible.

*sighs* I'm never good at explaining my ideas, so I hope someone can interpret for me. I've tried my best.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 6:56 pm (#61 of 2923)

Let it snow!
TGF: two halves usually make a whole

Not when dealing with blood heritage. Unfortunately. People tend to be rather purest about their bloodlines bieng "tainted". I've done enough research into Native American registries, pedigrees, and the like, both for personal research and for my degree, to know.

I have to definately lean toward Voldemort being the "prince" in question, especially since this was once a title for CoS which deals so prominantly with his teenage years and we were promised more of his background in this book. And, I could definately see him seeing himself as being "kingly", I mean, he had people call him 'lord' for goodness sake....

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Penny Lane. - Jun 28, 2004 7:00 pm (#62 of 2923)

TLC is now reporting that it IS the title for book six.

I don't like it though. - Gives us lots to speculate on, but it seems rather dull.

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Star Crossed - Jun 28, 2004 7:02 pm (#63 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Actually, I really don't like any of the titles. So, maybe that's why I'm rejecting this title.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 7:04 pm (#64 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Well, it's her world, so we don't have to like it... just the story that comes with it....

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Sherbie Lemon - Jun 28, 2004 7:29 pm (#65 of 2923)

Well, because I am totally biased when it comes to anything JKR writes, I will say that I love the title.

Perhaps Cornelius Fudge is the half-blood prince? He makes his first appearance in CoS, I believe. He's been lording over the Prophet and the Wizengamot and Hogwarts. In fact, his behavior could certainly be seen as "prince-like." He definitely seems to think himself a prince. Holding the Minister of Magic position has gone to his head and made him believe that he is the supreme ruler of the English WW. Yet I'm inclined to agree with Sarah and say that that the half-blood prince is Voldemort. Indeed, that's exactly what I thought when I read the title.

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Cezar Salem - Jun 28, 2004 7:37 pm (#66 of 2923)

I don´t know... For some reason it seams kind of odd. It just doesnt sound like the right name... And I find it really weird that it came out along with the past ocurrances. I have seen that some even suggested that rowling created the Pillar of Sturge rumor( not me!) But I mean come on, she makes this coment on the rumor page that pill of stuge is upsurd ant then comes up with this ? I mean its just not creative enoph And why doesnt she just come out and say : book six is called harry potter and the half blood prince... I mean I could be wrong, but I am going to wait till she says something more about this...( something makes me feel she might say something on the first of July)...

Edit: I just realized my post sounds like bickering, so I might as well post my ideas and what I think the title means.... So far I really liked the Cornelius Fudge Idea... it just the thing rowling would do, give us something we dont expect, after all the title seem just too obvious and nothing that seems obvious in rowlings world is obvius... Also like the title being a reference to : Neville, Draco ( nope dont like this one, just seams worth mentioning)Dean,And who knows, maybe even the Giant Squid... or maybe Icklibogg :-D

Oh, and I think I know where the Pillar of Storge name came from ( where he got the idea) Where do I post it? is there a rumors section? I have looked but not found...

Last time, I promise, Just that I found it odd she goes out of her way to say that lily is definatly dead, but doest do the same for james... Well, so for the many edits, I am knew( sort of, I´ve been reading for over two years but had decided to wait till I got my own computer till finaly signed up again, I used to be a member on the old forum)Sorry for spelling mistakes, I´´m Brazilian

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Green Eyes - Jun 28, 2004 7:44 pm (#67 of 2923)

Maybe then, Dumbledore's reference in OOTP that Harry wasn't "a pampered little prince" or whatever the exact quote was is actually him hinting at the differences between Tom and Harry. Now, Tom isn't a prince in the sense that he comes from royalty, but he fancies himself that way, perhaps. Harry is "just Harry."

I thought I read somewhere that Riddle was raised in an orphanage and I understood this to be a terrible upbringing...not much different than Harry really, no love, no nurturing that's what I meant when I mentioned that they were brought up the same.

Also, one thing that I thought of after I last posted was that Harry's situation living with the Dursley's is almost like the fairy tale Cinderella. Obviously, he's a boy and so forth, but kept in a cupboard under the stairs...evil stepmother (and father and brother)...I'm rambling but just random thoughts.

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The Niffler - Jun 28, 2004 7:48 pm (#68 of 2923)

Well, I was disappointed when I heard that book 5 was called Order of the Phoenix, it sounded ambiguous and a little odd. On the contrary, I think that The Half Blood Prince has a really interesting vibe to it, whether it is the real book 6 title or not (I'm inclined to think that it is). It has an air of distinguished mystery and intrigue. I hope JK confirms it! Smile

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Hem Hem - Jun 28, 2004 7:59 pm (#69 of 2923)

Thanks Lady Kazuma for your sentiments about the "cheesiness" of the title. I completely agree. If I had been a fan back in the days after P/SS was published, I would have probably given up on the sequels completely when the title "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" was released. I don't think things could possibly get much cheesier than that.

Speaking as a fan since the days PoA was released, I've never once been pleased with JKR's choice of title upon its release. And I've never yet been dissatisfied with the book that bears its name.

The thing that dissappoints me here is that we've probably already figured out a lot of what this title alludes to, and it's only been public for about a day! I hope we're wrong, simply because otherwise this would be far too easy!

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Ff3girl - Jun 28, 2004 8:03 pm (#70 of 2923)

Lady Kazuma: "While I was pondering the title, an vision flashed into my head, and then was gone. The vision contained a little ring of Slytherin students surrounding poor young Tom Riddle, mocking him, and calling him the Half Blood Prince.

Upon reflection, this is what I've come up with: Slytherins, which are purebloods, according to the Sorting Hat, would not appreciate finding a Half Blood in their midst. I'm reminded of the reaction everyone had to Harry being a Parselmouth. Also, I'm reminded of "Weasley is Our King," coming from the Slytherins, and other similar occurences in the books."

You know, when you mentioned this, I was reminded of something strange, too. I was reminded of the crucifiction of Jesus. (Not that I'm comparing Voldemort to Jesus...) I was reminded of the sign put on the cross. Didn't it say something like: "This is Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews." Of course it was meant to be mockery at the time, but...

I can kind of imagine a scene of mockery taking place, and Tom Riddle deciding he would live up to his title.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 8:04 pm (#71 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Don't worry Hem, this is JKR we're talking about; it will never be easy...

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 28, 2004 8:06 pm (#72 of 2923)

I Am Almighty!
I have no problem with the new title. Before I read the books, which was well after GoF was released, I thought all the titles sounded rather lame. Now, as long as the first four words of the title of a new book are "Harry Potter and the," I completely happy.

I do hope the Half-Blood Prince is someone other than Voldemort, though. It was too easy to guess what the Order of the Phoenix was, and I hope that we'll be surprised this time.

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Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2004 8:19 pm (#73 of 2923)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Hee-hee, nimrod! "As long as the first four words of the title of a new book are 'Harry Potter and the,' I am completely happy."

So true!

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JasonS - Jun 28, 2004 8:20 pm (#74 of 2923)

Student/Harry Fan
Hey all - I made a post on the Harry Potter thread last week about the wizarding worlds use of calling Harry the "Boy Who Lived." It seems like they are calling him that more and more, instead of using his name, similar to Voldemort. Maybe instead of calling him Harry people will start refering to him as the "Prince of Half Bloods." Don't know, just a thought.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 28, 2004 8:52 pm (#75 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
I don't care if she calls it, "Harry Potter and the Out-of-tune Nose-pluckers"; the important thing to me is always before when we learned the title, the book itself is not far behind. So if you ask me what the title means, THAT is my answer. :-)

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Grant the Great - Jun 28, 2004 9:03 pm (#76 of 2923)

OK, I usually just read, but a few things are bugging me. First of all: those of you who are saying that we never know (for sure) about what the new part of the title is are WRONG! No offense, but I have been a Harry Potter fan since before book 2 came out. In CoS, Azkaban is mentioned, so we DO know that the prisoner of Azkaban is not someone locked away in a tree or something. Also, if you want to get technical, Sirius is mentioned in the first chapter of Book 1, albeit not noticably.

Also, I'm glad other people have posted my sentiments, because all of the titles are cheesy anyway, but that doesn't make them any less good. I thought the best was Order of the Phoenix. When I first read Sorcerer's Stone, I was worried that it would be dumb. My 7th grade librarian told us about the book and author, and I thought, "Oh great, a book about a boy and a magic stone, how good can this be?" However, I LOVED it. I was also afraid when I heard the title of CoS, because I thought that it was going to turn out to be one of those sequels that are really dumb (anyone thinking Disney animation besides me?). Anyway, my point is, if you're looking for a dumb title, I'd go with Chamber of Secrets of Half Blood Prince anyday.

Now, for my non-negative posting (since I'm posting a message anyway). I agree that the Half Blood Prince refers directly to Tom Riddle, though there may be a connection between Harry and Voldemort now (given both connections between Voldilocks and Harry: the night Harry lived and the night the Dark Lord was reborn). I think that mainly because of the fact that it was a working title for Book 2. That reminds me, someone asked where we found out that it was a working title for book 2. Shortly after GoF was released, JKR did an interview, because everyone was wondering why she changed the title of the fourth book (from Harry Potter and the Doomspell Tournament to Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire).

Anyway, one last thought to throw out there: in case Voldemort is actually a prince to some degree, would that be through his mother (ie. Salazar Slytherin was royal, perhaps) or his father (Muggle royalty; he did have a large manner. Though, the royalty would almost surely have to be through a second son a long ways back)? Just thought I'd leave food for thought.

EDIT: also, just look at the entry for Merlin on the Lexicon if you think that JKR wouldn't use a title of prince in any sense in her books.

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Madam Poppy - Jun 28, 2004 9:39 pm (#77 of 2923)

Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Jun 28, 2004 9:40 pm
Wasn't the title for Book 5 announced 6 months before the release of the book? That would put Book 6 out in time for Christmas!

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Caput Draconis - Jun 28, 2004 10:02 pm (#78 of 2923)

Look...at...me...
I've never been so happy to see a door open in my life.

So I don't mind the title, I think it's kind of...ominous and cool. It's funny, I'm a post GoF fan, so I never realised how dumb Chamber of Secrets et al sounded to people, heh. I'd like to be surprised, I guess, but I think all signs point to Voldemort, or more to the point, how this half-blood Prince became Lord. A Lord with a pureblood agenda, too. Voldemort's rise to evil has got to be interesting, there's potential for more Marauder backstory, Snape's DE past (yay). And if Book 5 (lol, I think I'm still going to call Book 6 Book 6) so forcibly established the Voldemort/Harry connection, there's no better time to delve deeper into Tom Riddle/TDL. Powerful potential. I repeat, yay.

"And I've never yet been dissatisfied with the book that bears its name." - Right on, Hem Hem.

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 10:20 pm (#79 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Good sentiment here, although I still think that the title is fine. Again, I think it's 'Prince' as in 'Prince Bismarck' rather than 'Prince William' or whoever. Not a literal royal Prince with crowns and all, but just a powerful figure of authority.

I think that in Britain they don't really hold the word 'Prince' in contempt, which I think is happening here. They do still keep Princes and Queens after all... That's just instinct though, I can't really back that up. Although on second thought she's technically my Queen too, I guess...

I'm all for the Christmas Book 6 over here... It'll make me fail my Christmas exams!! Awesomeness.

I think Book 6's acronym should be 'HBP' by the way.

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Caput Draconis - Jun 28, 2004 10:31 pm (#80 of 2923)

Look...at...me...
Edited by Jun 28, 2004 10:31 pm
Why not?

Yeah, I never thought Prince as in son of a King, I thought it more as in...princely, I guess. Like I immediately thought of a Malfoy-esque aristocracy, a 'superiority'. Hmmm. It's not Prince of half-bloods either, is it, it's Prince who happens to be a half-blood. Hmmm. I guess it might also fit with the heir of Slytherin thing, Salazar's the King, Tom's the Prince.

*waves to TGF from another country where she's technically my Queen*

Hehe.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 10:51 pm (#81 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Oh no. I'll never be able to see that acronym without thinking 'high blood pressure'. That's the acronym we use in my pre-med classes for it....

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TGF - Jun 28, 2004 11:14 pm (#82 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Well, I guess it could be H-BP so that you can have the distinction, but that looks kinda bad. We can't just have it HP for obvious reasons. I don't like the acronym either, it doesn't have the same sort of charm as 'PoA' (Po-a!) or 'GoF' (Gawf!)... Even 'OotP' has a certain zing (Oot-P!)... HBP is kinda weak in acronym terms when put in comparison, I must admit, but as a title itself it's not bad.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 28, 2004 11:18 pm (#83 of 2923)

Okay, so for the record I don't have a problem with the title "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" nor do I see where it would be in any way illogical that "Half Blood Prince" would refer to Harry in some context, as long as they were talking about the IDEA of a Half Blood Prince in there somewhere. After all, there are a lot of cases where the idea of something is a lot more interesting than the thing itself.

I think it was Lisa Marie Presley who said she fell in love with the IDEA of Michael Jackson, and then found out what Michael Jackson was really like (the two turned out to be different things).

Following that logic, Harry could very well find himself confronted with the IDEA of Harry Potter v. the reality of Harry Potter. In fact, I'd say it's very likely he'll have to deal with that in book six (or "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince", or even HBP, if you prefer) because he's been dealing with the issue all through the first five books. Harry Potter has had to spend a lot of time dealing with (and often fighting against) "The Boy Who Lived", I'm afraid.

I also don't have a problem with the idea that it might have been a rejected title for CoS. After all, she's already said she's going to open HBP with a chapter she's been trying to use as an opening chapter since SS/PS, so we have a good precedent for knowing that J.K. Rowling doesn't just pitch things because they don't work in a single place. She saves them for later. Maybe she just decided the title worked better for book six than it did for book two.

For that matter, does J.K. Rowling ever say this was a REJECTED title? I only recall it ever being said this was one of many titles that was copyrighted around the time CoS was coming out. That doesn't mean it was rejected. In fact, considering the level of planning behind the Harry Potter series, I think it's entirely likely that she's known the name of all seven books since she first put pen to paper on SS/PS.

As for the release of the title suggesting the book is coming out soon... hmmm... she's said it probably won't be this year. In any case, I can see where she'd release the title based on the nature of the hack on her website. After all, if I were a writer and a fake title was gaining mass speculation and some degree of popularity among my fan base, I think I'd probably say "Well, I better release the REAL title of the bloody thing and nip this in the bud before I actually have to change the title of the book to that piece of dragon dung!"

So in the interest of not getting my hopes up for the next Harry Potter book, I'm going to say the release of the title has nothing to do with the release of the book, and probably a whole lot to do with the fact she just didn't want the fake title to set or have fans feel she had somehow done them wrong by not setting the matter straight.

And for the record, yes, I believe this probably is the title for book six (as was stated earlier, it would be mean-spirited to release HBP as a title just to play around with us, and I've never gotten the feeling J.K. Rowling was mean spirited in the least)... so make sure to ricochet the fruit bowl off my head if it's a joke and you can't aim for Mare.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 12:04 am (#84 of 2923)

Let it snow!
TGF: I don't like the acronym either, it doesn't have the same sort of charm as 'PoA' (Po-a!) or 'GoF' (Gawf!)... Even 'OotP' has a certain zing (Oot-P!)...

What if we made one of the letters lower case? Like HbP? HBP kind of reminds me of PS, to tell the truth.

Actually, I'm fine with Harry Potter and the High Blood Pressure. I can live with it....

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 12:14 am (#85 of 2923)

What about HabP or HaP?

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Tomoé - Jun 29, 2004 12:19 am (#86 of 2923)

Back in business
Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince ... I think I will write it HbP, just because I like to have a lowercase in the middle. ^_~ The name felt lame at first, but it growing on me, I'll get use.

I do like Lady Kazuma's suggestion that the Half Blood Prince was a cruel nickname for Tom among the Slytherins. Those memories would come back as the word spread among the DE he's a half-blood. Maybe he'll let the DE root in Azkaban to prevent them to tell the others, a prison is exactly what he need to keep his secret. I wonder what he will do with Bella, if Bella will have time enough to tell the other before Tom find out and erase her memories.

Edit : I like HaP!
What about ½BP (looks weird)
Or ½P (looks even weirder)

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 12:23 am (#87 of 2923)

Lol!

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 12:26 am (#88 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I'm getting awefully fond of HbP myself...

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 12:28 am (#89 of 2923)

But try to say it and it comes out "hubbup" Smile. I think I'm going for HaP.

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TGF - Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am (#90 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Andrew Buchanan, you are completely wrong, the title most certainly means that the book without a doubt will be out very soon, most definetly and positively. Yep, yep, your wrongness in saying that is not soon, or even perhaps this year, could not be more wrong.

In seriousness, I don't know about the Half-Blood Prince being the 'idea' of Harry Potter, which he has to face. It certainly bears merit, but we have to consider the other 5 titles here. Rowling has always made it nice and simple... like I said for the Pillar of Storge, titles have always referred to something within the text, not the subtext. Harry having to face up to the artificial 'The Boy Who Lived' persona is something that strays into the latter, not the former.

"After all, she's already said she's going to open HBP with a chapter she's been trying to use as an opening chapter since SS/PS"

We do? How do we know this? I've never heard that before... I remember she said that the last chapter of Book 7 has been written though...

Tomoe: I don't think Voldemort's parentage is uncommon knowledge among the Death Eaters. In fact, I'm pretty sure they all know. He returns to power over his Muggle father's graves, and tells them what he used said father's bones to resurrect himself. Hitler's vision of a perfect race was blond hair and blue eyes. No one seemed to care so much that he didn't exactly fit the picture, having black hair and eyes (along with a stupid haircut and terrible mustache to boot).

As to acronyms... I like HaBP. That sounds nice. A good 'Habup' sound... And I think it would be good for SE Jones' blood pressure Razz.

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The giant squid - Jun 29, 2004 12:41 am (#91 of 2923)

"hubbup"! lol

I'm not too keen on the title, but not because it's cheesy. More because it sounds so...mundane. Look at the first 5 titles--all of them include a particularly fantastic element (the Stone, Azkaban, Goblet of Fire, Phoenix). Okay, Chamber of Secrets isn't especially fantasy-oriented--which may be another (accidental?) link to Tom/Voldie.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I was hoping for something you can only find in the Wizarding World. The term "half-blood prince" could refer to any illegitimate or semi-legitimate royal.

Still, as Nimrod & Marcus pointed out, as long as there is a Book 6 I really don't give a flobberworm what she calls it! Smile

--Mike

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 12:48 am (#92 of 2923)

Okay, I've changed my mind back to "habbup"-HaBP. I wish she would confirm confirm confirm the title (so the theories can start flying)! I don't think it is mundane, and certainly still has a fantastical/fairy tale element. At first it actually reminded me of Le Petit Prince by Antoine Saint-Exupery.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 12:48 am (#93 of 2923)

Let it snow!
TGF: "After all, she's already said she's going to open HBP with a chapter she's been trying to use as an opening chapter since SS/PS"

We do? How do we know this? I've never heard that before... I remember she said that the last chapter of Book 7 has been written though...

TGF, it's all on her site. I think it's under 'Extras' or something....

Found this:
The Opening Chapter of Book Six
"I have come close to using a chapter very like this in ‘Philosopher’s Stone’ (it was one of the discarded first chapters), ‘Prisoner of Azkaban’ and ‘Order of the Phoenix’ but here, finally, it works, so it’s staying. And that’s all I’m going to say, but when you read it, just know that it’s been about thirteen years in the brewing."

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TGF - Jun 29, 2004 12:55 am (#94 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I guess the first chapter of HaBP is going to take place way back in the past then... I mean, she can't just have a chapter with Harry being 11 again, after all. Maybe something that takes place before Dumbledore snaps off the lights then... I'm thinking that she'll have Harry have a dream about Voldemort giving the old chop-chop to James and Lily, just like he dreamed of Frank getting beaten down in GoF.

And Dooby, theory away, this is pretty much confirmed. There are just a few extra-skeptical people about that are being... well, that are being extra skeptical.

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 12:57 am (#95 of 2923)

I was just a little confused about the Peeves Woz Here appearing on the mirror....

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TGF - Jun 29, 2004 1:00 am (#96 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
That's always been happening. Go to the site now and leave the window open for a few minutes and he'll come.

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 1:03 am (#97 of 2923)

Ohhhh, ok! I hadn't seen him before, and thought he might be indicating a hoax. Goody! I'm really onto this title now--it's the best one, along with PoA.

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Isenduil - Jun 29, 2004 1:10 am (#98 of 2923)

I have to say my favorite acronym is ½BP Wink

I also agree with TGF about the first chapter being a flashback of Lily and James getting killed. And I forget who said it before about Slytherins calling Tom Riddle Prince Half Blood in mockery but I don't think so because he said he was already being called Lord Voldemort in school by his closest friends. I also hope we find out what those other papers on the desk next to the Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince page are.

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TGF - Jun 29, 2004 1:17 am (#99 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Yeah, I don't know about you guys, but teasing Lord Voldemort... he could've, you know, tortured and slaughtered all of them. I mean, sure he might not openly kill other students, but he could certainly let loose a world of hurt upon them. He didn't become the most brilliant and powerful student ever by not having a backbone.

If someone teased him, most likely that person got a rather ugly retort, and even more likely that person was killed in the 70s when Voldemort first went through with his thing.

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The giant squid - Jun 29, 2004 1:17 am (#100 of 2923)


And I forget who said it before about Slytherins calling Tom Riddle Prince Half Blood in mockery but I don't think so because he said he was already being called Lord Voldemort in school by his closest friends.

Ah, but the idea here is that he was called this by his enemies, not his close friends. Considering the way Malfoy treats...well, anyone, I can see Slytherin kids being merciless toward some half-blooded orphan kid.

--Mike

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HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05) Empty HP6: the Half Blood Prince (Jun 04-Mar 05) (Post 101 to 150)

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:57 am

StareyedSlytherin - Jun 29, 2004 2:08 am (#101 of 2923)
I have to admit that the whole thing about it being a rejected title for book 2 kinda threw me off for a minute there. But as someone else on the site said in an earlier post, I think it would be rather mean of her to do that to us^_^ But It also doesn't seem to be in her nature to be so blunt about something concerning the series either, she seems to like us to figure things out for ourselves rather than being told. There's always something to guess about. So that makes me wonder if it could possibly have some meaning other than a reference to Voldy + I have to somewhat agree w/ the person who posted earlier that it might be discribing an inner struggle.. or could be referring to another character altogether.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 29, 2004 2:41 am (#102 of 2923)

I got the feeling from the books (especially when Tom Riddle was talking about getting Hagrid expelled) that Tom Riddle was seen by the other students as one of the best and brightest Hogwarts had to offer. Even Dumbledore seems to confirm this when talking about Voldemort (he describes him as "the clever, handsome boy who was once Head Boy here"). I think Hogwarts was probably a positive place for Tom Riddle, even considering that whole little "unleash a monster and go on a murderous rampage" episode, and he seems like he'd fit in very well with other Slytherin.

I imagine the Half Blood Prince part of the title probably refers to Voldemort. I think that's supported by the idea that it was once the title of CoS (I did find where J.K. Rowling mentions it was the original title)... and I think that's further supported by the fact J.K. Rowling tells us we're going to find out a lot about Tom Riddle/Voldemort in HBP.

However, I was pointing out those people who think it might be some reference to Harry could have justification for thinking so.

Oh, and there are only six months left in 2004. Assuming it takes about a month to print and ship the first order, that leaves five months for J.K. Rowling to finish the book, for the book go through edit, for the final galley to be approved, and for the thing to be typeset.

Editing alone would probably take three to four months, so unless J.K. Rowling has already finished her final draft and sent it off (and remember they did announce when she had sent OotP to be edited... and have not made any such announcement about this book), I think it's going to be at least 2005 before we see the book.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 29, 2004 2:54 am (#103 of 2923)

Having been to J K Rowling's site she has mentioned someone hacking past a door that says "Do Not Disturb" - was that you TGF?

Imagine what it was like for Voldemort, a half-blood in Slytherin. I'm not convinced yet that Half Blood Prince is the title, or that Half Blood Prince refers to Voldemort. Could Seamus be the half blood prince? Or even Krum? are we going to find out about another school? It could even be a clue to the next Defence Against the Dark Arts Teacher.

I will be watching the Rowling Site to see what happens.

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Neldoreth - Jun 29, 2004 3:02 am (#104 of 2923)

Gryffindor girl!
I've read somewhere (on TLC-Homepage?) that Title of Book 5 was announced about a year before release. So I'm with Andrew and try to get used to the fact that I wont hold the book in my hands before 2005 (if luckily its earlier, well the better!!!!)

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Susanne - Jun 29, 2004 3:37 am (#105 of 2923)

The news page on JKR's site has been updated this morning and it confirms that the HbP really is the title. She also says that the information on the site will always be genuine and that half blood prince in question is neither Harry nor Voldemort..

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Neldoreth - Jun 29, 2004 3:45 am (#106 of 2923)

Gryffindor girl!
neither Harry nor Voldemort! now that will complicate the discussion, who else might it be? As TGF noted at the beginning of this thread, Seamus Finnigan is a Half-Blood ... who else could be in this category?

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septentrion - Jun 29, 2004 3:50 am (#107 of 2923)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
a lot of people are in half-blood category, but Prince ? I like the title too, and I'm with the ones who believe the release will be for 2005, not before. But if it's 2005, it would be a year less than for OoTP, would'nt it ?

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OkieAngel - Jun 29, 2004 3:56 am (#108 of 2923)

Hey Ya'll!! I was just over at JKR's site and had a thought after coming back here and reading all of your opinions. What if it's Hagrid?? He was a key player in COS, and JKR has mentioned previously that there were clues to book six in COS.


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Mare - Jun 29, 2004 3:57 am (#109 of 2923)

Okay I just saw the new update, and I was so wrong. (You may hit me now )

First of all: wow, look at that reply. She answers all our questions, tells us (as in us, me and all the others who thought it a joke) that we can trust her site. I'm not saying she is reading this forum, because I'm guessing there were lots of discussions going on in chattrooms yesterday, but she sure keeps in touch with her fandom.

And as for the half blood prince (give me a few months to get used to that) I don't know who brought it up in this thread, but some-one said: Mark Evans. And I like that. Explains why she takes so much time to answer that FAQ poll...

And we are going to get more clues : jeeeej!

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Susanne - Jun 29, 2004 3:59 am (#110 of 2923)

TGF, I seriously think you are a genius. JKR has confirmed almost everything you have said in the posts in this thread about the information being genuine etc. I am beginning to think you really are her in disguise!

Does anyone think that Dumbledore's comment about Harry not becoming a 'pampered little prince' is significant? Is there anyone at school who acts that way? The only person I can think of is Draco, but he isn't half blood.

Susanne

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Aussie Weasley - Jun 29, 2004 4:06 am (#111 of 2923)

Teacher
JKR's website says that the HBP isn't Harry or Voldemort which tends to leave us still guessing. I am sure she will enjoy seeing where we go with this:)

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Neldoreth - Jun 29, 2004 4:08 am (#112 of 2923)

Gryffindor girl!
septentrion, you mean a year less waiting for the book? I was happy I only got hooked to HP after GoF had been released: it made the waiting way shorter than for all the other fans waiting much more! (the same happened with LotR)

Last year was quite exciting (and terrible) to wait for OotP coming in June! to get HbP during 2005 would be excellent! I now use the real title (and not Book 6) as JKR just confirmed this on her site!

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 4:30 am (#113 of 2923)

This is so exciting! I'm jumping up and down! I love this title! This title rocks!

And now lets start the task of compiling a list of known half-bloods Smile Off the top of my head:

Hagrid, Lupin (technically), Firenze (very very technically), Seamus

Oh, I'm too excited! Someone else finish it off Very Happy

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septentrion - Jun 29, 2004 4:31 am (#114 of 2923)

Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
Yeah, that's what I mean. But like you, I was only hooked after CoS movie, so I "only" waited 6 monthes for OoTP, which I passed reading the whole series in English to be ready for June

edit I posted in the same time than Dooby, I was answering to Neldoreth

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Fawkes Forever - Jun 29, 2004 4:44 am (#115 of 2923)

Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Hee hee JK has used the short version HBP

Wow, just yesterday we were sniggering about the Pillar of whatsits & now we appear to have the genuine title of Book 6. Must admit, I thought it was a bit cheesy too, but it's beginning to grow on me now.... reading it several times in this thread has helped

So then, the big mystery between now & book 6 being published is 'Who is the Half Blood Prince'? and 'How is the HBP linked to Harry (if at all)?' Funny enough Hagrid also popped into my head, as did Lupin.

I think the question we need to ask is.... if it's related to CoS, who was introduced then & who do we know thats a half blood. I think I'll have to have another look at the thread for JKs notebook, and see what students in Harrys year are listed as half bloods. That & think of all the adult half bloods as well.

Of course there is the other option..... that the HBP is someone we haven't met yet... either someone who has been mentioned in passing conversation, or someone completely new.

Do we know if the Wizarding World in Britain has a royal family? I know they've never been mentioned, but it's possible. Or indeed an old Royal Family from continental Europe? Perhaps the HBP is Fudges replacement in the Ministry... perhaps all falls apart in the Wizarding World with 'ol Voldy being back, Fudge is killed or resigns & no one will take the position of Minister... So the role of Head of State will fall upon a member of the Royal Family? They could then get the name HBP from some death eaters or something.

Or *mad theory alert* It's Lockhart ... (yes I am joking )

I'm rambling here.... trying to focus my ideas... but my head is spinning from all the thinking Sorry if I'm not making sense .... hee hee... just too many ideas & my fingers won't type fast enough.

Just to note.... do we know if Dumbledore is a pure blood?

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 29, 2004 4:45 am (#116 of 2923)

Okay, so I was wrong about it probably being Voldemort instead of Harry. Apparently there's a new character, or one we know about already but don't know the back story on is this HBP guy.

I could start guessing immediately, but I don't have anything but "not Harry or Voldemort" to go off of. I mean, there are tons of characters we don't know the ancestry of as far as all that goes... so I'm going to be patient, and I'm not even going to begin speculating about who the HBP is unless and until J.K. Rowling gives us more solid information on the subject... which should be NOW!!! NOW I SAY!!! RIGHT NOW!!!!

I CAN'T WAIT ANOTHER SECOND!!!

Wait. Patience. Yes, that's it. I have patience. =)

Edit: And no, I don't think anything's been mentioned about Dumbledore's family other than the fact his brother Aberforth is really strange... so no, no one's said he's pure blood as far as I know.

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Catherine - Jun 29, 2004 5:11 am (#117 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Now that HBP has been confirmed, I would sure like to go to 12 Grimmauld Place and read the Wizarding geneology book...where's Hermione's instatiable book reading when you need it?

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Sherbie Lemon - Jun 29, 2004 5:26 am (#118 of 2923)

So if the half blood prince is neither Harry nor Voldemort, that still doesn't rule out Tom Riddle, does it? In my mind, Tom Riddle and Voldemort are not truly the same person; after all, Riddle is unrecognizable as Voldemort. A major part of CoS is Tom Riddle, so the title would fit for that book as well. Right now, my money's on Riddle as the HBP.

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 5:41 am (#119 of 2923)

I shall tell you one thing without making you shift any bricks at all: the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort. And that's all I'm saying on THAT subject until the book's published-- J.K. Rowling (from The Leaky Cauldron).

Ooh, I'm all a-dither!

Wonder if the Half Blood Prince is Mark Evans?

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Diagon Nilly - Jun 29, 2004 5:49 am (#120 of 2923)

Edited by Jun 29, 2004 5:51 am
As I said, JKR is usually in the habit of introducing the object of the title as something new. To rebut about Azkaban being mentioned before PoA, yes it was. But the Prisoner of Azkaban, aka Sirius Black, wasn't introduced until book 3. So I stand by my assumption that we don't know who the HBP is yet. But just in case we do....

We know it's not Harry or Voldy, and we know it would have to be someone introduced (or mentioned idly at least) in or before book two. But most likely someone introduced in CoS because, as I said, she has a habit of doing that. So, by that deduction, it's not Snape, Dumbly, Hagrid, McG, Ron, Seamus, Dean...etc.

Who was new in Book 2? Lucius, Dennis Creevy, Tom Riddle (not Voldy, as she said, but Tom Riddle (semantics maybe, but she tends to "word things carefully")), Lockhart(?!), Dobby(!?)...who else? I know there's more...

EDIT: Although it would be really awesome if it WAS Snape.

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tracie1976 - Jun 29, 2004 5:53 am (#121 of 2923)

"Harry needs her badly." JKR on Hermione...interview from The Times June 30, 2000 artwork for avatar by logansrogue at livejournal.com
I think we need to consider Prince of what? There is so many possible answers to that. What possible position in the WW would be called a prince? Does the WW have a government that is ruled by a queen and the sorts like England working beside the MoM? I think we also got to figure in all the half blood wizards we know about. Would the half blood have to be exactly half blood? Since we know Harry is called half blood because Lily was muggle born and we assume James is pure blood.

These are the thoughts rambling through my head at the moment so if I confuse you, you now know how I feel lol.

Added: Diagon Nilly: But the Prisoner of Azkaban, aka Sirius Black, wasn't introduced until book 3.

Sirius was briefly mentioned in PS/SS, when Hagrid mentioned that the flying motorcycle was Sirius's when he delivered Harry to Dumbledore at the Dursleys'

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Bluenote1313 - Jun 29, 2004 5:57 am (#122 of 2923)

Does anyone know WHERE the location is on her site for the title? Is it gone already? I found a room with a door that has bricks in it, you can push some of the bricks in but it doesn't do anything....

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 6:00 am (#123 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Here's the full content of JKR's news sections on the Book 6 title (which just has to be HBP since that is what she used!):

Title of Book Six: The Truth

Well, the door opened at last and I showed you the title of book six - the genuine title, the title that will appear on the published book, the title I have been using in my head for ages and ages. Unfortunately, however, the door opened on the very same day the ‘Pillar of Storge’ hoaxer struck, which left a lot of Harry Potter fans bemused as to whether I was having a joke at thier expense by posting another fake title to ‘teach hoaxers a lesson’, something I certainly wouldn’t do, as it would simply frustrate, confuse or annoy the 99.9% of you who aren’t hoaxers! I tried to give a clear hint that the title behind the door was the real one by making the ‘Toenail’ joke as well (see ‘Rumours’). But just to clear up matters once and for all...

Information you take directly from this site will be truthful and accurate (I might occasionally joke, but as time goes on, you’ll learn to tell when I’m joking). Do not trust anybody else claiming to have found information on this site that you cannot access, however seemingly convincing the images they provide to support their story.

I never post information on this site that I do not want fans to read immediately. In other words, anybody claiming to have ‘discovered’ a message that wasn’t due for release yet is lying. There was never anything meaningful behind the door until the ‘Do Not Disturb’ sign came off!

The ‘Pillar of Storge’ was never my title, and I did not change it at the eleventh hour because I was ‘found out’ (I nearly fell off my chair giggling when I read this).

I was delighted to see that a hard core of super-bright fans knew that the real title was once, in the long distant past, a possibility for ‘Chamber of Secrets’, and from that deduced that it was genuine. Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planned for ‘Chamber of Secrets’, but very early on (first draft of Chamber) I realised that this information’s proper home was book six. I have said before now that ‘Chamber’ hold some very important clues to the ultimate end of the series. Not as many as six, obviously, but there is a link.

Anyway; if you continue to exercise patience, you will find that the Do Not Disturb Door opens again... and again... giving you further hints about book six. But as a little bonus, and compensation for having been messed around by Mr. or Ms. Storge, I shall tell you one thing without making you shift any bricks at all: the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort. And that’s all I’m saying on THAT subject until the book’s published.

EDIT: I know we think James is pureblooded, but it's not actually stated anywhere in the series, is it?

Bluenote, you're supposed to push the bricks in sequence. See the JKR Site thread....

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Chemyst - Jun 29, 2004 6:02 am (#124 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I'm so late in posting --even though it's only been a day! Oh, well. In fairytales, princes are under-age juveniles or eligible bachelors. So that, with other clues & interview comments, make it sound like we are in for flash-backs and prequels. TTT, the second book in LotR,had a lot more towers than just two, so we may have more than one prince. There are plenty of characters whose blood-history we don't know, Dumbledore, Flitwick, Snape... not that any of those are at all likely. And I like HbP. Well, I really like ½BP but that takes almost as long a writing out the full thing.

+ + + + + +

I'd had the above typed out when I first got up this morning, was called away, and now the site has been updated! I'll plunge on. Since it is not Harry or Voldy, now I'm thinking more along the lines of a new visitor to Hogwarts. Viktor and Fleur came for a year, why not an Indian Prince? (Choosing India only because it used to be under British rule and seems exotic and a source of snakes and potions ingredients.) But that does not pick up on anything in CoS, and a good theory probably would.

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Diagon Nilly - Jun 29, 2004 6:03 am (#125 of 2923)

D'oh! Tracie revealed a flaw in my perfect theory! Very Happy

I guess I'll go back to putting on my scheming face (first I raise this eyebrow...then I raise the other eyebrow...)

I'm still going to say we don't know, but continue to spectulate anyway (because it's more fun). Besides, if I stick to my theory then I can be gloriously wrong when the book comes out and get a round of "neener, neener, neener" from everyone.

Well, at least we know who it's not, and that's a start.

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Kevin Griffin - Jun 29, 2004 6:24 am (#126 of 2923)

my money is on snape or dumbledore. I dont think that we are going to get a new major character at this point. I think of the major characters that we know very little of the past about, and that jk has maddingly kept from us would most likely be snape and dumbledore, however if i had a gun to my head, my first gut reaction was snape. Although, my bro has believed since book 4 that dumbledore will die in book six so he believes it is him.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 29, 2004 7:19 am (#127 of 2923)

I know I said "I'm not speculating on this..." and I'm going to keep to that, but I'm going to toss idle things out just because...

Didn't J.K. Rowling say she wasn't introducing any more major new characters? That suggests we've already met the boy. She's also said she's really not going to introduce any foreign students to Hogwarts. That suggests he's probably British.

Oh, and has anyone thought about Dudley? If Petunia displays any magical properties (and J.K. Rowling has said someone who hadn't displayed any magical powers early in life will display some later under EXTREME circumstances), that'd make him a half blood technically speaking, and who else have we seen that's been treated more like a prince?

Yeah, yeah, yeah... it's silly. I know it's silly. Just goes to show there are a lot more people who can fit the title than we're probably thinking of, though... except for Ernie MacMillan. You can trace his lineage back through nine generations of witches and warlocks, so his blood's as pure as anyone's.

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Doris Crockford - Jun 29, 2004 7:22 am (#128 of 2923)

I think it'll be Nott (Jr.) or Thestral Boy. Like PoA, which was the only other book named for one person (the Order was a group of people), we probably already know the 'Half-blood Prince', but not very well. As for them not being in PS/SS or CoS, JKR said, "Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planned for ‘Chamber of Secrets’, but very early on (first draft of Chamber) I realised that this information’s proper home was book six", so she might have held off introducing them. She also said that book 5 was very long because she had to add in clues so we wouldn't feel cheated later on, and guess who we meet in Book 5? Nott and Thestral Boy.

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popkin - Jun 29, 2004 7:27 am (#129 of 2923)

mother
And Mark Evans.

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Bluenote1313 - Jun 29, 2004 7:34 am (#130 of 2923)

Maybe it's Dean...on her website JKR says that the story she had planned for Dean was that he thinks he was born to Muggle parents, but that his father really was a wizard.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 29, 2004 7:37 am (#131 of 2923)

Yes she did say that about Dean Thomas. Well remembered. I also thought she said she had decided to not use his story-line so she could develop Neville's, though...

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Anna L. Black - Jun 29, 2004 7:39 am (#132 of 2923)

I can't tell you how thrilled I am to hear that HBP is indeed the new name, and that it isn't another hoax. And I think I like it, although my first reaction was: "Half-Blood Prince?! Huh?! She's got to be kidding!" But now I love it

I liked the idea of the prince being DD. But it doesn't connect to anything in CoS that I can think of... Unless what she saved for Book 6 was something that eventually wasn't even mentioned in CoS.

I just finished reading CoS today (for the 100000th time), and, knowing HBP is a possible title (it was before I saw the confirmation), I did notice how much that book evolves around blood-issues - I never noticed it before, but the whole Mudblood-Squib-Prejudice is introduced mainly there. And I just can't see any other option for the prince in question, but to be Voldemort... And then JKR goes and confuses me Unless it's really, like somebody here mentioned - Tom Riddle and not "The Big Ugly Scary Lord Voldemort".

This was a very confused post, as I'm all confused from all this new information.

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Rosmerta - Jun 29, 2004 7:42 am (#133 of 2923)

I really like this title, as its much more ambiguous and difficult to decipher than OOTP was, I felt like we couldn't ever get any wild and crazy theories out of that one. ;-) But in seriousness, I think that the half-blood prince is either someone we don't know at all, or don't know well. I like the idea that its Nott as well Doris; however since he is seen with Draco a lot, I question whether its possible that he isn't pure blood. Then again this could be excused by the fact that Nott senior supports Voldemort. I still think that this could be an unknown though, and for the time being like this possibility the best.

edit: I also like looking into the idea of Dumbledore, now theres a revelation that would be very interesting...

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Gina R Snape - Jun 29, 2004 7:42 am (#134 of 2923)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I have a hunch it might be the next DADA teacher. Don't ask me why. But that's the first thing that came to mind.

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BMan - Jun 29, 2004 7:58 am (#135 of 2923)

What about Dudley as the half-blood prince? If one of the wizard characters were a prince, don't you think we would have heard something about it by now. It strikes me that it has to be someone "outside" the wizarding world because it would seem that neither the HBP, nor anyone else (save Dumbledore and maybe Voldemort) know about this prince. There is obviously more to Aunt Petunia than we have previously guessed, so why can't there be much more to Dudders?

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Mare - Jun 29, 2004 8:12 am (#136 of 2923)

Oooh next DADA teacher, good one!

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JasonS - Jun 29, 2004 9:10 am (#137 of 2923)

Student/Harry Fan
I have a question - Does the HBP have to be a person? Could it be an ideal or cause or something else? I don't know, I just think it is very ambiguous and the only refrence to a prince at all that I have seen is DD to Harry at the end of OoTP. J

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Chris. - Jun 29, 2004 9:16 am (#138 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Okay, "Harry Potter and the Halfblood Prince" started to grow on me and now I think it's a great title!

The only Halfbloods I can think of, without books, are Tonks, Seamus, Dean, Lupin, Harry and Tom Riddle. Obviously, it can't be Harry or Voldemort but it could be Tom Riddle still.

I like the idea of Dumbledore too. Doesn't Voldemort use a title that is similar to "the Halfblood Prince" for Dumbly?

HbP DADA teacher? Hmmmm... Does this mean it will be a new Halfblood who the title is referring to?

That's my thoughts.

PS. Just found this... a merchant prince is a a person involved in trade whose wealth is sufficient to confer political influence. I'm thinking Lucius Malfoy even though he is Pureblood or so he says.

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 9:24 am (#139 of 2923)

Aren't the Creevy's half bloods?

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Chris. - Jun 29, 2004 9:28 am (#140 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Nope, they're Muggle-borns.

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Fawkes Forever - Jun 29, 2004 9:35 am (#141 of 2923)

Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Loopy... is that the 'Half Pint Prince' in your avatar there? Sorry I couldn't resist ... I can hear the groans from my cheesy joke from here

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Catherine - Jun 29, 2004 9:40 am (#142 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Fawkes, LOL!!

Loopy, I can't type and look at the picture of the entertainer formerly known as "Prince" in your posts. I have this insane desire to sing "Purple Rain," and it's messing me up! Very Happy

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 29, 2004 9:49 am (#143 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
I now know what the title means. (Highlight for answer)

'Prince' is the name of a half-breed dog.

Made you look! ;-)

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Catherine - Jun 29, 2004 9:52 am (#144 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Marcus, you got me. In honor of the new title, take 1/2 point!

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Fawkes Forever - Jun 29, 2004 9:54 am (#145 of 2923)

Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Marcus... you're very naughty... & yip, I looked

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Grant the Great - Jun 29, 2004 10:02 am (#146 of 2923)

I thought that it might be Nott, but now that's already mentioned, so I'm not unique. However, I put my support in for that. Didn't JKR say that she wanted to put a scene in with Draco and Theo in Bk2, but she deleted it. Could it be that this was because it no longer fit, because we wouldn't yet know Theo was HBP (must keep with JKR's standard, instead of our contaminations, after all, the abbreviation is cannon now that Jo has used it)? That's all I have to say.

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Denise P. - Jun 29, 2004 10:10 am (#147 of 2923)

Ravenclaw Pony
Boy, the one day I don't check the Forum like I normally do and this all comes about!

I am not sure what to think about HbP...it doesn't seem to have the same ring as the other books and sorry, I am in Cirque Du Freak mode and all I can think of is vampires when I see HbP.

The door opens to a blank wall for me.

I think we are still close to a year away from getting HbP anyway, I don't think we will be seeing it at Christmas time.

June 04 - PoA released to theaters
Dec 04 - PoA released to DVD
Jun 05 - HbP released ?
Nov 05 - GoF released to theaters

I think that is more likely. We get some sort of a HP fix every six months or so while waiting for HbP to be released.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 29, 2004 10:11 am (#148 of 2923)

Yeah, but a scene between Malfoy and Theodore Nott at the Malfoy mansion also violates the narrative thread of the books. It could easily have been taken out for that reason (after all, with the exception of the first chapter of the first book, which took place when Harry Potter was an infant and was basically a build-up to his introduction, everything in the books has taken place from his point of view).

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Catherine - Jun 29, 2004 10:19 am (#149 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
You're right, Andrew, except that the narrative "slips" again in SS during the Quidditch match when Quirrell is jinxing the broom and Hermione sets Snape's robes afire.

That break in the narration has always made me wonder....

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Rosmerta - Jun 29, 2004 10:20 am (#150 of 2923)

Is Peter Pettigrew a possibility? I can't remember any references to his family background, and since he was mysteriously absent from book 5 I think that most of us can agree that he will soon come back into the thick of things in an important way, maybe it is as the prince?

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HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05) Empty HP6: the Half Blood Prince (Jun 04-Mar 05) (Post 151 to 200)

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Marye Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 10:26 am (#151 of 2923)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
I noticed that too Andrew. When I read about that exchange on her website my first thought was how she would have made it work since the books are from Harry's PoV (unless Harry somehow got into the Malfoy residence) but I don't think it was discarded for that reason because that's way too big a problem for her to have tried to use it twice. However she pretty much said that she will not be using this scene on her website.

I just had a thought about Hagrid. I think I heard somewhere that JKR told the actor who played Hagrid something important about his character so that he could play it better. Maybe it's that he's the HBP? ... I don't know, that seems too easy.

About the release date-- The release date of OoP was announced some time in January 2003 (I remember I was working on a final exam project when the news appeared on TV) and it came out on June 21st so it seems to take at least five months. And the title came out a while before that. So I'd say Christmas is the absolute earliest it could come out (and my guess is it will actually be next summer).

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Chris. - Jun 29, 2004 10:29 am (#152 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Nott can't be the Halfblood as JKR said on her site (Other Stuff section) that he was "just as Pureblood as Malfoy". It may just be a metaphor though. I foudn it strange thatthe Malfoy/Theo scene was to be used in CS like Dean Thomas's background as well.

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justme - Jun 29, 2004 10:29 am (#153 of 2923)

Didn't OoP come out between the 2nd and 3rd movie? Coud this be the schedule for the next book?

You know, concentrate on the next 2 movies(OK, just 1 now) and finish editing the 6th book afterwards(even though this would make at least a year and a half for the book)?

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 29, 2004 10:33 am (#154 of 2923)

I Am Almighty!
I doubt it will be Peter. HBP was once a possible title for CoS, and that is before we knew about the Marauders, Animagi, etc.

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Nellie - Jun 29, 2004 10:55 am (#155 of 2923)

I have been thinking all day about who this Prince chap might be... I thought of Dudley, Hagrid (is he technically half blood? Am I right in thinking he is half giant half wizard?), Dumbledore, Snape... Then I thought about the statue in the MOM, the golden one which protected Harry when Dumbledore enchanted it. Could it be a statue of the Prince? Was there a description of what the statue looked like? I don't have my book with me, can anyone help?

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Casey - Jun 29, 2004 10:56 am (#156 of 2923)

I have a friend that seems to think there is some secret behind Malfoy's upbringing. It'd be really cool if the little idiot found out he was somehow adopted or had a different mother and that he wasn't exactly pure blood. But, with all the evidence and history we've been given, there's really no doubt about Malfoy's parentage is there? I couldn't recall, so I thought I'd post the idea anyway.

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Lunar Tides - Jun 29, 2004 11:23 am (#157 of 2923)

Hello everybody, this is only my second time posting. I just like to share some of my ideas here, :-p

This has probably been mentioned already, but for info reasons, Rowling said that the Prince is not going to be Harry or Voldemort.

I have this hunch that the Prince is someone whos pretty rich, and rich makes me think of someone in Slytherin. Also, I like the idea of Tom Riddle. But like always, it could be someone entirely new, such as the DADA teacher.

Ive also heard sugesstions of Mark Evans...if he was rich (i dunno why i thought of this) it would seem like he was apt to being bullied.

And, finally, I think each book covers different areas of the Wizarding World and this book is going to cover something that hasnt been covered yet, :-p

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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 29, 2004 11:40 am (#158 of 2923)

Sometimes known as Kim.
My vote for the HBP is definitely Mark Evans. I don't think the "prince" part has anything to do with money, but rather ancestry.

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Catherine - Jun 29, 2004 11:47 am (#159 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Interesting, Kim. Does this affect the speculation that Mark and Harry may be related? It all makes my head spin after a while.

I wonder if it all goes back to Slytherin or Gryffindor himself. I also keep wondering about that vial of blood that was in 12 Grimmauld Place.

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Ff3girl - Jun 29, 2004 11:58 am (#160 of 2923)

...? Vial of blood? Did I miss something?!

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Chemyst - Jun 29, 2004 12:02 pm (#161 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Or a portrait?

Ooo, the vial of blood... so many itty-bitty things to remember! (You're really leaving no stone unturned!)

Edit: Chapter 6, OP - "...least pleasant of all, an ornate crystal bottle with a large opal set into the stopper, full of what Harry was quite sure was blood."

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Archies night gown - Jun 29, 2004 12:16 pm (#162 of 2923)

No one has yet mentioned the possibility of Neville. Yeah, I know it is a long shot, however... We do not know much of Alice Longbottom so far and she could be a muggle born or something to that extent. I theorize this because Neville is a character that is starting to come to the fore by of Oop. He is born the same day as Harry, he could be the heir of Grifyndor (who knows). I like to think that now that Neville needs a new wand, his powers will be more up to snuff.

Again, do we know much about his mother? Could this be a possibility? The title doesn't necessarily have to apply to a conflict between Harry and that paticular person or thing does it?

Just my 2 knuts.

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 12:19 pm (#163 of 2923)

I thought of Dudley, Hagrid (is he technically half blood? Am I right in thinking he is half giant half wizard?),-- Newton

Yes, his mum was a giant and his dad was a wizard. I think that makes him half blood.

"Ooh" to the vial of blood for me too. FF3girl, the vial of what appeared to be blood was in 12 GMP's study (drawing room, whatever) when the kids were cleaning it. It was mentioned almost in passing as sort of a "gross out" thing. It would be just like JKR for it to turn out to be very important.

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Marye Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 12:20 pm (#164 of 2923)

"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
If Neville's mother was Muggle born it destroys Dumbledore's reasoning of why Voldemort came after Harry and not Neville. DD says that Voldemort saw himself in Harry who was half-blood and therefore chose him instead of the pureblood Neville.

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 12:21 pm (#165 of 2923)

I've never heard of Neville's mom being anything but pureblood and as Marye Lupin points out, canon points to pure.

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popkin - Jun 29, 2004 12:23 pm (#166 of 2923)

mother
Didn't the kids throw out the vial of blood along with all the other dark objects and portraits? I suppose Kreachur might have kept it in his cubby hole, or given it to Narcissa. Or, maybe they polished it up and put it back on the shelf, but why? That seems like something you definitely would not want to have lying around the house.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 29, 2004 12:24 pm (#167 of 2923)

I Am Almighty!
I was delighted to see that a hard core of super-bright fans knew that the real title was once, in the long distant past, a possibility for ‘Chamber of Secrets’, and from that deduced that it was genuine. Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planned for ‘Chamber of Secrets’, but very early on (first draft of Chamber) I realised that this information’s proper home was book six. I have said before now that ‘Chamber’ hold some very important clues to the ultimate end of the series. Not as many as six, obviously, but there is a link.

Anyway; if you continue to exercise patience, you will find that the Do Not Disturb Door opens again... and again... giving you further hints about book six. But as a little bonus, and compensation for having been messed around by Mr. or Ms. Storge, I shall tell you one thing without making you shift any bricks at all: the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort. And that’s all I’m saying on THAT subject until the book’s published. -JKR Bold text mine.

Assuming Voldemort not being the HBP also means it is not Riddle, I think the two most likely candidates are Draco and Lockhart. The bold text says that JKR moved some crucial information from Book 2 to Book 6, and I don't see how anything important enough to be the title could be revealed about most characters. Can anyone really imagine the title of Book 2 being about Colin, Mark Evans, or Dudley, to name just a few.

However, if Draco had discovered, after taunting Mudbloods all year, that he was one himself, I could see the book being named for him.

I think a case can be made for Lockhart, too. He was an important character in CoS, so it wouldn't have been odd for the book to be named for him, and he was re-introduced in OotP(near the Longbottoms, no less), so he could be important later in the series. If the moved information is about Lockhart, I don't have a clue what it is yet.

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Neville Longbottom - Jun 29, 2004 12:26 pm (#168 of 2923)

Several posts ago there was the rumour mentioned, that it was Dean. I disagree with this, I think if Dean's story would become that important to name a book title after him, she wouldn't have told about his story on her site.

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siobhan - Jun 29, 2004 12:28 pm (#169 of 2923)

Edited by Jun 29, 2004 12:31 pm
I really like the idea of the new DADA teacher being the HbP. The whole Mark Evans theory is interesting too. Maybe thats why it is taking her so long to answer that q on the faq poll!I'm delighted that q is winning!

With regards to the Neville theory i would think that Dumbledore would know Nevilles ancestry and he clearly states in Ootp that Voldemort chose the half-blood ie Harry not the pureblood ie Neville when he heard that segment of the prophesy. I think Nevilles part in the story will not be directly linked to Voldemort but to his regime and his followers. I really hope that the Hbp is a new character. More new information to find out from them and about them!

Neville: I completely agree, if it was dean then she would tell us about his ancestry in the book instead of on her website. I assume that information will never completely make it into the book

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Liz Mann - Jun 29, 2004 12:31 pm (#170 of 2923)

Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I've been reading some of the earlier posts on the thread. An awful lot of people thought the title was a hoax. In fact, I believe it was Mare who said: "Okay I officialy state that I believe this to be yet another joke (this time from JKR herself) and if I turn out to be wrong, slam me on the head with a fruitbowl!"

So... *throws fruitbowl* Don't worry, Mare, I'm just teasing.

As for what I think about the title: I don't think it's cheesy at all. Just simple, that's all. I can't imagine who it is, though, if it's not Harry or Voldemort. Possibly Mark Evans, because his name draws people's attention to him and we don't know anything about him. I think the half-blood prince is probably someone new.

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Kevin Griffin - Jun 29, 2004 12:34 pm (#171 of 2923)

I still think that the "lover of mud-bloods and muggles", Albus Dumbledore is the heir and prince of gryfindor. He has the sword of gryfindor, which I dont think just any headmaster would have, and he also has fawkes whose colors, are the colors of gryfindor. True it does raise the question of alberforth.

I thought about mark evans, but wouldnt he have gotten a letter when he turned 11?

Knowing that JK has only two more books to write and having the big assumption that book 7 will be mostly about harry and voldemorts final battle...she has a lot of loose ends to tie up in book 6. Book 6 will be the beginning of the third act in a play, where everything comes together before the final scene.

There are lots of subplots left, but I think that the three main plots left are, who is dumbledore, why does he trust snape, and how did harry parents really die. What do you all think?

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 12:34 pm (#172 of 2923)

However, if Draco had discovered, after taunting Mudbloods all year, that he was one himself, I could see the book being named for him.-- nimrod 2000

I think that is excellent reasoning in your post. I have to toss Hagrid in as a likely candidate as well. It was in COS that we learn why he was expelled and his past as a Wizard is rather crucial to the story. In that light, it becomes rather interesting that DD, as he has done with Trelawney, has gone to such lengths to ensure that Hagrid stay at Hogwarts.

Edit-- Double Post Kevin...LOL

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Chemyst - Jun 29, 2004 12:37 pm (#173 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Nimrod, your post got me to wondering... the fan blows several pages off the desk... will it blow so that different pages "land on top" in the future?

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Ff3girl - Jun 29, 2004 12:39 pm (#174 of 2923)

Nimrod 2000! HAHAhaha... that's great.

By the way, thanks for explaining the vial of blood for me, Loopy Lupin. I need to improve my reading skills... 0_o

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Liz Mann - Jun 29, 2004 12:47 pm (#175 of 2923)

Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Actually, I've just had a thought. I don't know if anyone's suggested this but...

A while ago people were thinking maybe Tom Riddle was the 'Half Blood Prince' and that it was a mocking name the other Slytherins gave to him when he was at school. Then J.K. posted on her website about it not being Harry or Voldemort. However, she said it's not Voldemort. He wasn't Voldemort then. It's like Dobby's 'not He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, sir' hint. Possibly. Or maybe I just like the mocking nickname theory so I want to believe it.

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mischa fan - Jun 29, 2004 12:58 pm (#176 of 2923)

Easy being green, it is not
OK, I have a few problems with the, "It isn't Voldemort but it could be Tom," theory, First, Tom is Voldemort, they are one in the same person, you cannot seperate Tom for Voldemort, or Voldemort from Tom. Second, Tom said that Lord Voldemort was a name that he was using back when he was at Hogwarts, before he created the diary, so at that point in time Tom was already going by Lord Voldemort. Third, do you really think that Tom Riddle was the kind of person that others could tease, he was a very powerful wizard, even as a student, and has a very evil temper, I think the first person who called Tom, "the half blood prince" would very soon regreat doing that.

My money on who the half blood prince is someone we have not yet met.

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 1:03 pm (#177 of 2923)

Tom Riddle was the 'Half Blood Prince' and that it was a mocking name the other Slytherins gave to him when he was at school.-- Liz Mann

I really like that reasoning too Liz. So many possibilities.

Do we have any hints or evidence (other than our own opinions) on whether to treat Riddle and LV as one in that same or as two different people? I believe that when JKR refers to Voldemort, she's including Tom Riddle. Tom Riddle is the 16 year old LV. True, he disappeared at some point and was "unrecognizable" when he returned. "Unrecognizable," but not a different person. DD calls him Tom. And, what's more, even when he was the 16 year-old Tom Riddle, he wasn't exactly good then was he?

Edit-- Posted the same time as Mischa Fan.

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Catherine - Jun 29, 2004 1:06 pm (#178 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Jim, you make some solid points.

I hope JKR isn't bound by the same enchantments as Dobby, as far as telling secrets! It would feel a little cheap to find out that it WAS Riddle after she said that it wasn't Voldemort. I'd just rather her say, "No comment!" than to "fudge" the truth.

I do feel like, as I've said before, that someone is going to have to investigate the Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy. I feel like we can count on Hermione to investigate this. Plus, I could see her being reluctant to throw away a book, even if Sirius didn't want it. Perhaps the "prince" is listed in there.

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mooncalf - Jun 29, 2004 1:07 pm (#179 of 2923)

Edited by Jun 29, 2004 1:08 pm
I liked the theory, too; It had a very authentic feel. But I don't think that JKR will give us a Dobby kind of hint. Dumbledore calls Voldemort Tom at the end of OotP, and I think that, like Dumbledore, JKR considers Tom and Voldie to be one and the same.

Which doesn't make the problem any less interesting.

Of the half-bloods we do know, who could it be? I don't think that it will be Seamus; I can't see his part getting significantly larger, and I think that Dean's backsory has been consigned to a trivia footnote.

Can't be Tonks, because it's not the Half Blood Princess. :-)

Hagrid would be interesting, because it is so unexpected..

If it's a known character, I vote for Lupin. He does has a certain nobility of character, a lot of secrets (sometimes the obvious secrets hide the more important ones.) Mostly, though, that's probably just wishful thinking, because I would like to see him have a more prominent role in the next book.

It does seem most likely that it will be a character that we have barely met, like Mark Evans.

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TGF - Jun 29, 2004 1:09 pm (#180 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Haha! I told you all that it was real, I did! No way you'd have to do that kind of puzzle for naught.

But it seems I was wrong about everything else, as it's not Voldemort. Oh well, at least it's not Harry either... I don't like the whole it's 'Tom Riddle' as opposed to 'Voldemort' thing at all. I think it's about time we stopped assuming that Rowling is trying to mislead us at every sentence.

"Nott can't be the Halfblood as JKR said on her site (Other Stuff section) that he was "just as Pureblood as Malfoy"."

There's nothing like that in the other stuff section... or any of the other sections. Maybe you heard that somewhere else?

I also don't think it's Nott. Nott's father is a Death Eater. Death Eaters aren't very interested in relationships with Muggles... I mean, they're more about torturing Muggles for their own amusement, which would make for a very awkward relationship.

I think I agree with Diagon Nilly... if it's not Voldemort, then it's no one we know. All titles have referred to a new character or object. For those who think it's too late in the series to be introducing a character... well, there are two more whole books. An entire book is a lot of room for a new character or two to come along. You could've said that about OotP too, but that book had a slew of new characters.

I don't think movies have anything to do with books, Denise. The movies may schedule releases around the books (as I think the CoS DVD was for OotP, because it came out all the way later when it easily could've made a summer release [as PS did]), but the books don't go around the movies. When Rowling submits her books to her publishers (a thing which is done not according to Warner Brother's schedule, but that of her own), we will know pretty much instantly, and from that point a definite release date will have to be set, just as it was with Order of the Phoenix. If the release date happens to fall on a date near the PoA DVD or GoF the movie, then that's tough for the movie, because they can't just sit on a completed Harry Potter to wait for another marketing window for the movie's sake.

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Catherine - Jun 29, 2004 1:17 pm (#181 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
I'm wracking my poor little brain over this.

Some people already have "titles," so I'll eliminate the following:

Hagrid = The Keeper of the Keys

Harry = The Boy Who Lived

Snape = The Potions Master

Dumbledore = The Only One He Had Ever Feared

Sirius = The Prisoner of Azkaban

Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort = The Heir of Slytherin

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Laurelin - Jun 29, 2004 1:22 pm (#182 of 2923)

What if the "Half Blood Prince" was a historical figure rather than a living person? Since it was the working title for CoS which talks "a lot" (well... a little... not as much as I'd like...) about the history of Hogwarts and its founders, I think it's a good possibility.

To add another thought... Dumbledore was called somewhere "the champion of Muggle-lovers" (this is only from memory... it's either Malfoy or Voldemort who says s.th. similar to this...`) If a Present-day person should be the "Prince", why not Dumbledore?
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Diagon Nilly - Jun 29, 2004 1:25 pm (#183 of 2923)

"I think I agree with Diagon Nilly... if it's not Voldemort, then it's no one we know. All titles have referred to a new character or object. For those who think it's too late in the series to be introducing a character... well, there are two more whole books. An entire book is a lot of room for a new character or two to come along. You could've said that about OotP too, but that book had a slew of new characters."

tracie1976 mentioned that Sirius was mentioned briefly in SS, which made me think I was probably wrong about the above theory. But I was reminded that Sirius wasn't the Prisoner of Azkaban when he was mentioned in SS, so technically we were introduced to someone new...sort of. So maybe I'm not as wrong as I thought I was.

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Chris. - Jun 29, 2004 1:25 pm (#184 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
"There's nothing like that in the other stuff section... or any of the other sections. Maybe you heard that somewhere else?"-TGF

No, it was definately JKR's site.

"However, in this scene Theodore’s father (the same Nott who was badly injured in the closing chapters of ‘Order of the Phoenix’) goes to visit Lucius Malfoy to discuss Voldemort-related business and we see Draco and Theodore alone in the garden having a talk of their own. I really liked the scene, firstly because it showed the Malfoys’ home, and the difference between the place where Draco has grown up and number four Privet Drive; and then because we rarely see Draco talking to anybody he considers as a real equal, and he is forced to see Theodore as such, because Theodore is just as pure-blooded as he is, and somewhat cleverer."

I found it interesting that Draco considers Theo as an equal.

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Marye Lupin - Jun 29, 2004 1:27 pm (#185 of 2923)

"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
Kevin-- I thought about mark evans, but wouldnt he have gotten a letter when he turned 11?

Mark Evans was ten in book 5 so he wouldn't be getting his letter until the next year.

I think HBP is Dumbledore, he just makes the most sense to me (although I'm one of those who believes he will die in Book 6 so...)

As for Lockhart-- didn't JKR say that he wasn't going to play a very big part in later books?

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Anna L. Black - Jun 29, 2004 1:28 pm (#186 of 2923)

About Neville - he's definitely a pureblood:

"Neville Longbottom bought a large, evil-smelling green onion, a pointed purple crystal and a rotting newt-tail before the other Gryffindor boys pointed out that he was in no danger: he was a pure-blood, and therefore unlikely to be attacked." (CoS, ch. 11- The Duelling Club, p. 139 in the British edition)

OK, I'm just throwing names, but there are a lot of characters we know nothing about - Kingsley Shacklebolt, Mundungus Fletcher (LOL, now that's a real prince), Prof. Flitwick.... naah, just forget I ever said anything

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StareyedSlytherin - Jun 29, 2004 1:28 pm (#187 of 2923)

Hehehe! Ff3girl, I'm wondering that too^_^

I first thought that it could be a Slytherin, but I doubt it would be Malfoy. Someone new, maybe? Or that we just haven't heard that much about yet.. Anyways, maybe this person could have something to do with uniting the houses together or some important point like that? Just a thought:)

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Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 1:30 pm (#188 of 2923)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I'm actually kind of disappointed with this title. I don't know why. The titles of the other books I was really happy about. Order of the Phoenix just seemed to "fit", even before the book was released. I really don't know why. This title just seems "wrong" to me. Perhaps because I was expecting such an amazing title that I was bound to be disappointed. Also, I wasn't able to see the title behind the door!

Edit: Sorry that this was a whole post in which I whined! *looks extremely ashamed*

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Bluenote1313 - Jun 29, 2004 1:30 pm (#189 of 2923)

I like the idea that it is someone from the past.....maybe someone who has a child at Hogwart's now who 'inherits' the throne. That person who is the 'prince' is not aware of their past.

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Chris. - Jun 29, 2004 1:31 pm (#190 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Well, I tried getting name meanings. Kingsley, of course, has a kingly/royal name and Gilderoy has something too. -roy means royal or regal.

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Laurelin - Jun 29, 2004 1:44 pm (#191 of 2923)

Bluenote wrote: I like the idea that it is someone from the past.....maybe someone who has a child at Hogwart's now who 'inherits' the throne. That person who is the 'prince' is not aware of their past. Personally I don't think that there needs to be an "heir" around who is/becomes the HBP. When I think of a historical person being the Prince, then I think it to be an occasion for parallels, other prophecies etc... What if Godric Gryffindor was called HBP (imo this "Prince" doesn't need to be a half-blood himself, it could be enough to support their rights...) maybe in opposition to Salazar Slytherin?

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Star Crossed - Jun 29, 2004 1:53 pm (#192 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I really, really love the idea for someone from the past. I don't know why, but Godric really seems to fit with this title, and it just makes sense to me. I actually like the title now thinking about it. Very Happy

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Chris. - Jun 29, 2004 1:57 pm (#193 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Yes, I like the Gryffindor idea. More time travelling for HRH?

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Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 1:58 pm (#194 of 2923)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I like the Gryffindor idea too....but do we know he was a half-blood? If we are sure he was, then it would explain alot more about the root of the Slytherin/Gryffindor rivalry.

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StareyedSlytherin - Jun 29, 2004 2:01 pm (#195 of 2923)

That's true!! It would be very interesting to find out a bit more about Gryffindor and Slytherin and their lives in the next book.

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Star Crossed - Jun 29, 2004 2:52 pm (#196 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I hope they don't time travel. To me, that's just trying to not be creative. She writes all these brilliant things, like the pensieve, talking portraits, so much that could explain it. Besides, time travel would be too hard. It's only meant to be used to go back a few hours. Would you like to try to calculate all the hours you would have to go back with?

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rambkowalczyk - Jun 29, 2004 2:54 pm (#197 of 2923)

In an earlier post someone says that in the 5th book Dumbledore says something to the effect of not wanting Harry to be a pampered prince. I think this statement was made in book 1 when McGonagall is shocked that he was leaving Harry with the Dursleys. Since book 5, I thought the reference was he didn't want Harry to grow up as arrogant as James did.

As to who the half blood prince is my first thought was Mark Evans. But is he a half blood or are his parents muggles. If his father was Snape (I don't believe this but it can't be disproved now) and his mother a muggle, that would make him a half blood. That would then force me to believe the whole Perseus Evans theory. On the other hand another wizard could be the father and Mark just has his mother's surname. I'll re post this on the Mark Evans thread.

I could even go so far to speculate that the father is Lucius Malfoy.

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Prefect Marcus - Jun 29, 2004 3:14 pm (#198 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Seriously, I think the 'prince' in question will be someone we've not met before. Perhaps an exchange student from Durmstrang or Beauxbatons.

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Emily - Jun 29, 2004 3:15 pm (#199 of 2923)

Didn't Voldie or one of the DE's call DD a 'champion of commoners' or something to that effect? That was my first thought, but I don't even know what book it's in.

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The PhantomOtaku - Jun 29, 2004 3:22 pm (#200 of 2923)

Something tells me it isn't Dumbledore or Gryffindor. Being that all this halfblood nonsense has been around for quite awhile now, I think that it would've been even more powerful back in the old days. I don't think Dumbledore would have gotten as much power as he did if he was a halfblood ... Does this make sense to anyone? I'm not that great at explaining things...

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HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05) Empty HP6: the Half Blood Prince (Jun 04-Mar 05) (Post 201 to 250)

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Mare - Jun 29, 2004 3:33 pm (#201 of 2923)
OUCH! Thanks Liz... I was hoping people would forget my mentioning the fruitbowl. I should have went back and edited that out.

Anyway, I had to mention that my mom thinks it should be Draco Malfoy.
And apparently Lockhart wasn't supposed to come back after book 2, his appearance in book 5 seemed to be a cameo, so I don't think he will play a big part, or turns out to be a prince. (Than again, I have been wrong before...)
I will look for the exact quote on that.

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Ozymandias - Jun 29, 2004 3:37 pm (#202 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
Oh, it's gotta be Gryffindor. We were first introduced to him, via the sword and the chamber legend, so I could see how with a bit more history in CoS, its title could have been HBP.

Wild speculation: maybe Gryffindor was the first half blood, or the first half-blood who was important in the ww. There have been several references to wizards being forced to intermarry with muggles or face extinction. Maybe Gryffindor made it socially acceptable, except to families like the Blacks and the Malfoys.

Or maybe I'm just crazy. Kip's puzzle has destroyed my brain.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 3:41 pm (#203 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Whew, finally got back to the forum, and see all the fun I've missed...

Okay, some people have already got some of my guesses. I was leaning toward the Gryffindor/Slytherin thing but from a slightly different angle. I was wondering about a more direct parrallel between Salazar and Riddle, i.e. maybe Slytherin was the HBP. He is the one who started the who pureblood mania thing, as is explained in CoS, and it could be for the same or similar reasons as Voldemort's antagonism toward's those with Muggle blood in their veins.

I was also thinking of James. We don't know much about James or his family, just that he was rich, had a house in Godric's Hollow, and hated the Dark Arts. If he was a half-blood, but one from a wealthy family (especially if the wizarding side of his family was old and very pure), then I don't think the Blacks would say much about him being friends with Sirius or staying at Grimmauld Place. Sure they'd grumble, but they wouldn't openly throw him out the way they would, say, Lupin. That might explain Kreacher's comment about Sirius always liking strange houseguests. Just a little theory....

My other guesses were Dumbledore or Tom Jr (I know she said 'not Voldemort' but she may have been do a little play on words there, as Dobby was and as Liz said earlier...)....

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Star Crossed - Jun 29, 2004 3:50 pm (#204 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I never thought James had a house in Godric's Hollow. Forgive me, but I always thought that when they found out about Harry, that they would leave where they actually lived, and borrowed a house of a friend's (I always figured DD) and put the charm there. *shrug* No real point to this, just saying.

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Mademoiselle Fleur - Jun 29, 2004 4:12 pm (#205 of 2923)

Well, when I first heard the title, I immediately thought of Tom Riddle. Mrs. Rowling said the HBP wasn't Harry or Voldemort, and Tom ISN'T Voldemort. And the HBP could have easily been Tom if it was the title of COS, because Harry meets him in that one. The two people most important to the plot in that book were Harry and Tom. It seemed a bit obvious to me.

I however, do not agree with the whole Slytherins-teased-Tom-about-being-a-halfblood theory. I think it is just something to call him, like in POA. 'Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban' was really great title. 'Harry Potter and Sirius Black' would have been a terrible title. No one ever refers to Sirius as the 'Prisoner of Azkaban' in any of the books. It is probably the same thing for this book. She wants to say 'Harry Potter and Tom Riddle' without saying, 'Harry Potter and Tom Riddle'.

I speculate, though why Tom would have been called the Prince of half-bloods. Is it because, perhaps, he was the most powerful half-blood in the history of wizardry? Is it because he once dominated all the half-bloods? No, those can't be it, because that was Voldemort. Why would TOM RIDDLE be the prince of half-bloods? I don't have a clue, really. Thoughts?

Just my ideas.

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Lady Kazuma - Jun 29, 2004 4:29 pm (#206 of 2923)

For Prisoner of Azkaban, Sirius was clearly the Prisoner in question. For Half Blood Prince, I would think you would have to be a bit more specific.

As a nice side comment, when I first read Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, I spent half the book thinking it was Harry Potter and the Prince of Azkaban. I only realised I was wrong when I was reading the explaination about Sirius, James, and Peter in the Three Broomsticks.

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 4:56 pm (#207 of 2923)

I've started replowing through CoS, and a few names come to mind. Firstly, Nearly Headless Nick. He isn't a "halfblood", but has "half blood", as he is neither alive nor really dead. And he could well be of noble blood (his full name certainly sounds regal). And I think JK did say we will find out more about him.

Also, Mr Weasley may be a possibility. I can see the title "half blood prince" being given to him in a derisive way. Lots of the pure blood wizards mock Arthur for having so much interest in muggle affairs--i.e. he is seen as half wizard, half muggle. There is a lot of reference in CoS to Arthur's disputes with Lucius over their wizarding social statuses (remember "the company you keep" in reference to the Grangers?). And what if the inquiry that Arthur was facing at work was about something deeper than the fact that the car could fly?

Anyway, that's just a few thoughts. I might have some more after I finish going through the book.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 5:12 pm (#208 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Hm... I don't suppose that "neither Harry nor Voldemort" could mean that it's both Harry and Voldemort, could it?

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Dr Filibuster - Jun 29, 2004 5:24 pm (#209 of 2923)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
Dooby, I came on here to suggest Hagrid but you were the first to mention him about 100 posts ago. Will Rubeus become a type of Prince/leader for the giants? His past was featured in CoS. He was a student at the time of Riddle, there is something more to be learned about his past. What did JKR tell Robbie Coltrane???

I also like the suggestions for Mark (Prince as in pampered?) Evans.

The idea of a new character, a real Prince, tickled my fancy too. I've liked the idea of a foreign DADA teacher for ages now. I imagine them bringing different views/methods/techniques into the classroom. Hmm, now I think Firenze may have done that already.

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Hem Hem - Jun 29, 2004 5:36 pm (#210 of 2923)

Goodness gracious, in the last day, and 100 or so posts, a lot of ideas have been presented. I had to copy no less than nine posts into a wordpad document so that I could remembereverything I wanted to comment on!

"Oh no. I'll never be able to see that acronym without thinking 'high blood pressure'. That's the acronym we use in my pre-med classes for it.... "

For me, the baseball fan that I am, every time I see HBP, I think of "Hit by a pitch"! I wonder how much longer it'll be before the acronym gets rewired in my brain.

In other ideas, I was originally very intruiged by the thought of Nott being the HBP, especially since we can see the blood purity being a very major theme in the book and we know that the "deleted scene" about Nott was in CoS, which seems to bear many links to HBP, including the title itself. However, I gotta agree with all the people who said that JKR wouldn't have posted important informaiton about Nott on the website if his eventual end was to be a title role in the latest book. Drop that idea.

Jim wrote: "OK, I have a few problems with the, "It isn't Voldemort but it could be Tom," theory, First, Tom is Voldemort, they are one in the same person, you cannot seperate Tom for Voldemort, or Voldemort from Tom. Second, Tom said that Lord Voldemort was a name that he was using back when he was at Hogwarts, before he created the diary, so at that point in time Tom was already going by Lord Voldemort. Third, do you really think that Tom Riddle was the kind of person that others could tease, he was a very powerful wizard, even as a student, and has a very evil temper, I think the first person who called Tom, "the half blood prince" would very soon regreat doing that." But what if they're "in essence divided"?!?

Right now, I think that the HBP is either the DADA teacher, or a historical figure. I really like the idea that Salazar Slytherin was the HBP himself, however, I find it just a bit unlikely that the two blood-purity-maniacs in the series are both half-bloods. That sounds just a little bit repetitious.

I highly doubt they'll care when the next movie is coming out in relation to the release of the book. As soon as she submits the book to her publishers, expect it to be in our hands about six months later. Maybe they'd push off a movie in a circumstance where the book would be ready around one of the premiere dates, but not the other way around.

Oh gosh, Sue, for my sake I hope that Hagrid has nothing to do with the HBP. It would probably mean more Grawp...

EDIT: I just can't empty my brain of what to say about the title. What about the ideas from 180 posts back or so about Grindelwald? After all, some theorists (or die hards ) still insist that he's the Bloody Baron. Barons are similar to royalty, no?

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Bluenote1313 - Jun 29, 2004 5:46 pm (#211 of 2923)

Dr. Flibuter said "Will Rubeus become a type of Prince/leader for the giants"

That is an interesting theory. We have all assumed half blood as a wizard/muggle but what if it means half giant/half wizard. Hagrid could become the leader of the Giants with Gwarps help.

I love the fact JKR knows her readers so well that she does this. She knew the HP fever was at a peak with PoA released and just added to it with the title this week....she could have waited until December to do it when it was dying down a bit between movie 3 and book 6. IF book 6 is scheduled for Summer 2005 then we can expect to see the snippet of the book around January-February just in time to renew the HP mania....

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Hogs Head - Jun 29, 2004 5:54 pm (#212 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Prefect Marcus sagely notes (#198), "Seriously, I think the 'prince' in question will be someone we've not met before. Perhaps an exchange student from Durmstrang or Beauxbatons."

Quite possibly. Or, perhaps, it will be someone we have met but who seemed quite insignificant at the time. If so, JKR's talk of clues in Book 3 inclines me to look for characters in Book 3.

I am intrigued by the Hagrid idea. Prince of the giants, I presume? And I think the whole part about Tom Riddle turning Hagrid in will come into play again.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 6:03 pm (#213 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Hogs Head: If so, JKR's talk of clues in Book 3 inclines me to look for characters in Book 3.

Book 3, Hogs Head? I think you have the wrong book. You need Book 2:

JKR: "I was delighted to see that a hard core of super-bright fans knew that the real title was once, in the long distant past, a possibility for ‘Chamber of Secrets’, and from that deduced that it was genuine. Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planned for ‘Chamber of Secrets’, but very early on (first draft of Chamber) I realised that this information’s proper home was book six. I have said before now that ‘Chamber’ hold some very important clues to the ultimate end of the series. Not as many as six, obviously, but there is a link."
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Bluenote1313 - Jun 29, 2004 6:06 pm (#214 of 2923)

So. I was reading the last chat JKR did online a few months ago and there was this tidbit:

Siriusstar: Is Remus a pureblood? JK Rowling replies -> Half blood.

Hmmmmm.....

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Chemyst - Jun 29, 2004 6:13 pm (#215 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
The more I read the opinions on this thread, the less I think the half blood prince is a real person. It could be a portrait like Sir Cadogan, a statue like the humpback witch, a gravemarker in the cemetery, a mixed drink at the Hog's Head, a novelty at Weasley's Wizard Wheezes, a silver artifact in Dumbledore's office, a book in the library, a specimen at the Department of Mysteries, a quidditch play like the Hail Mary, or Gwarp's misspelling-- he meant half ink and "half blood prints."

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 29, 2004 6:14 pm (#216 of 2923)

In Chamber of Secrets we learned that Voldemort/Tom Riddle is the last descendant of Slytherin. The question I have is whether or the Half Blood Prince could refer to the last known descendant of Godric Gryffindor.

Although, the theory about Hagrid becoming leader of the Giants has promise and is very interesting.

Best Regards, Nathan

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Matt Allair - Jun 29, 2004 6:33 pm (#217 of 2923)

'Mischief Managed.......Not! (Nox)'
Wow, I'm not in here near enough! Thrilling news, but I can't help having a mixture of disappointment and skepticism. My hunch is that "Half Blood Prince" is referring to a new character, much like "Prisoner Of Azkaban" was referring to Sirius, (sorry I know that someone else already beat me to that point, little redundant.) yet it just seems a little too obvious to me in a way.

I do have to wonder is this will turn out to be a tentative title, as much as I agree with TGF's comment that JKR wouldn't be cruel to her fans, I have to wonder if she's testing titles with the fan base, gauging their reaction, it's always possible that she'll post something in another three months to where she changed her mind. Again I know that point is a real stretch, but I'm thinking this one through.

What I find interesting about the title is, you could say, it has a 'triple meaning', it could be referring to a new character, it could be referring to Voldemort / Tom Riddle or it could refer to Harry, who knows.

I know it get's tiring drawing paraelle between Rowling and the C.S. Lewis books, Tolkien or the Arthur legend, but if this title is as significant as it could be, then the whole Heir of Gryfindor, Harry as the rightful future ruler of the British wizard world, might still be plausible.

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Hogs Head - Jun 29, 2004 6:35 pm (#218 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
You are correct, S.E., I mistyped "Book 3" when I meant Book 2, "Chambers."

JKR says, "Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planned for 'Chamber of Secrets', but very early on (first draft of Chamber) I realised that this information's proper home was book six. I have said before now that "Chamber' holds some very important clues to the ultimate end of the series. Not as many as six, obviously, but there is a link."

That might merit its own thread if there isn't one already on that -- I think there is one about clues in the movies, but perhaps not one focusing specifically on 'Chambers' the book.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 6:45 pm (#219 of 2923)

Let it snow!
There used to be such a thread, Hogs Head. It may have been eaten though. As long as you either 1) use that paragraph you just quoted without the 'HBP' title or 2) put the word "Spoiler" in the thread title, you are more than happy to start up a new thread for it....

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Ginevra - Jun 29, 2004 8:21 pm (#220 of 2923)

Hmmm... so many thoughts... I think I like most of the ideas on this thread so far. I like the idea that it could be a foreign wizard, possibly the new DADA teacher. I like the idea of Hagrid being Prince of the giants. There are so many possibilities.

I think my favorite so far is the idea of it being Arthur Weasley. I think this could be supported by the bit in CoS in Flourish and Blotts: "We have a very different idea of what disgraces the name of wizard Malfoy," he said. "Clearly," said Mr. Malfoy, his pale eyes straying to Mr. and Mrs. Granger... "The company you keep, Weasley... and I thought your family could sink no lower--" (CoS U.S. 62) This obviously shows that Malfoy does not consider the Weasley's as "pure" as he is because of the company they choose to keep, regardless of the actual bloodline. I think Ron also mentions at some point that if Arthur didn't like muggles so much he could have been promoted. (Not sure on that exactly) But that would mean that others in the MoM think the same way as Malfoy. I'm not really sure how all of this would fit in with the information that wasn't revealed in CoS, but of course we are all speculating at this point anyway. Sorry for the long post! *blushes*

EDIT: Now looking at it my post isn't that long...

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 8:29 pm (#221 of 2923)

Let it snow!
But, the Weasleys are all purebloods, so it can't be Arthur.

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Madam Poppy - Jun 29, 2004 8:50 pm (#222 of 2923)

Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Jun 29, 2004 8:51 pm
Once I read that Harry and Voldemort were NOT the 1/2 Prince, I committed my "vote" to the Tom Riddle group. I still remember thinking it was very odd that Dumbledore kept referring to Voldemort as "Tom" while they were dueling at the end of Order of the Phoenix. Add that to Chamber of Secrets dealing with Tom Riddle and my minds made up........for now.

Poppy

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Ginevra - Jun 29, 2004 9:00 pm (#223 of 2923)

This was posted by Dooby a few posts back:

Also, Mr Weasley may be a possibility. I can see the title "half blood prince" being given to him in a derisive way. Lots of the pure blood wizards mock Arthur for having so much interest in muggle affairs--i.e. he is seen as half wizard, half muggle. There is a lot of reference in CoS to Arthur's disputes with Lucius over their wizarding social statuses (remember "the company you keep" in reference to the Grangers?). And what if the inquiry that Arthur was facing at work was about something deeper than the fact that the car could fly

I was thinking along the same lines. That the name could be given in a mocking fashion. I think if this was the case though, Arthur would take pride in the title. Obviously they are all purebloods but they are looked down on by others as less "pure." I hope that makes my previous comment more clear.

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 9:23 pm (#224 of 2923)

Yes, I have a feeling there's going to be a bit more muggling in the next books. Surely what affects the wizarding world (VW2) will have an impact on the muggle world too.

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Julia. - Jun 29, 2004 9:33 pm (#225 of 2923)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Ok, I'm going to be different and suggest that the HBP is good old Dudley. I know you all think I'm crazy, and you're right. I have absoultly no evidence to back this up, but it is, of course possible, as are all thinks with JKR. We don't know for sure that Aunt Petunia isn't magical, so Dudly could be a half blood, and Aunt Petunia or Dudly could be the one who does magic 'quite later in life.' I know, it's nuts, and the evidence is entirely circumstantial, but hey, you never know.

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 9:37 pm (#226 of 2923)

That's definitely possible, after all, Petunia could be a Squib. I would love to see their reactions: Petunia would probably freak out but become more accepting of wizards, Vernon would end up in St Mungos, Dudley would be terrified, and Harry would walk around with his jaw hanging open. Hee hee.

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Julia. - Jun 29, 2004 9:47 pm (#227 of 2923)

74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Petunia is not a squib, we know her parents are muggles because her Snape calls her sister Lily a "Mudblood" and Lily is always refered to as a muggle born. Sorry, but that's just one of my pet peaves.

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 9:52 pm (#228 of 2923)

Woops, sorry Smile I should really learn to check my facts. Okay, then I don't think it's likely that the HBP could be Big D.

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Ff3girl - Jun 29, 2004 9:54 pm (#229 of 2923)

A while ago, The PhantomOtaku posted an idea about Dumbledore, and I have to agree. I don't think Dumbledore is a half blood, because he would have had a much harder time climbing the social ladder and getting people to respect and revere him if he were a half blood. Especially considering that Fudge (used to) take advice from him, and Fudge 'puts too much importance on the purity of blood.' (paraphrase..) So, I don't think Fudge (or many other important officials) would have taken him as seriously if he were half blood.

I think we can rule out Dumbledore as the HBP.

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Ozymandias - Jun 29, 2004 9:57 pm (#230 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
I've been mulling the Gryffindor is HBP theory in my mind and I'm wondering what you all think of what I've come up with.

Godric Gryffindor is the HBP. This is why he and pure-blood-loving Slytherin were rivals particularly, rather than just Slytherin vs. the other three or Slytherin vs. Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff. I think in HBP we will get more of the backstory with the chamber of secrets, such as the split of Slytherin and Gryffindor's reaction to the chamber. Perhaps there is a Gryffindor chamber that contains something that will help overcome the heir of slytherin? The heir of Gryffindor (Harry? DD? Ron? Ginny?) will be able to open the chamber and use whatever the weapon inside is to help fight LV.

The more I think about this, the more sense it makes. In CoS we were introduced to the Heir of Slytherin. It seems only logical that he should have a rival/foil/enemy: the Half-Blood Prince.

Thoughts?

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 29, 2004 10:12 pm (#231 of 2923)

The only problem I have with the idea of Gryffindor being the HBP is that the only witness alive at the time says Gryffindor and Slytherin were the best of friends, until a rivalry developed because of a difference of opinion between Slytherin and the other three founders.

Considering Slytherin's deep distrust of muggle borns (which was actually probably very understandable at the time considering the whole "drowning, drawing and quartering, burning at the stake" thing), I'm having a hard time imagining Salazar Slytherin being best friends with a mudblood. He just didn't trust them.

Although, I do find myself thinking about the fact one of the students is supposed to switch houses. Do you suppose it's the same guy?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 10:32 pm (#232 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I'm having a hard time imagining Salazar Slytherin being best friends with a mudblood

Andrew, there is a difference between a Mudblood (excuse the expression) and a halfblood....

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Aqua Vite - Jun 29, 2004 10:32 pm (#233 of 2923)

Harry Potter Aficionado
I know that this was discussed about 100 posts ago, but after talking in depth with my best friend (another true blue HP fan), we began to develop the theory that the HBP might be Mark Evans. As many people have pointed out in this thread and others, the titles of JKR's books tend to refer to things that have not been mentioned or only mentioned in passing. I know that when I first read OotP I completely missed the part about Mark Evans and I even later when I found out that Lily's surname was Evans it didn't register. Therefore, just like Sirius was barely mentioned in SS and Azkaban was just barely mentioned in CS, Mark Evans was barely in OotP. This tiny hint made us think that he is going to have some large part in book 6. I seriously doubt that JKR accidently gave Mark the last name of Evans, especially when she reveals to us later in the book that Lily's surname was Evans. I hardly doubt that it is just concidence. I don't have any theories as to how Mark Evans could be connected to Harry and his family, aside from the obvious of making Mark's last name be the same as Lily's surname. Perhaps some of the rest of you can throw some light on this.

(On a side note, which could be off topic, my best friend's dad saw a rumor on Yahoo this morning that stated that Book 6 is coming out this August. Frankly I don't believe it because I couldn't find the article, but I was wondering if anyone on the forum can affirm or deny this rumor. Thanks!)

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S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 10:43 pm (#234 of 2923)

Let it snow!
There is no set date for HBP's release, as yet.....

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Aqua Vite - Jun 29, 2004 10:44 pm (#235 of 2923)

Harry Potter Aficionado
I knew it was too good to be true.

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Grant the Great - Jun 29, 2004 11:14 pm (#236 of 2923)

Who cares if the only witness said they were good friends until the split? Wouldn't that help us know that the witness (the Sorting Hat) might be able to tell the rest of the story? JKR said that we would see "what the Sorting Hat becomes" as time went by. Could it possibly be that she wasn't referring to serving a purpose for all seventh years, but serving as a historian of Hogwarts, telling of the split, and thus, how to undo the split through the modern-day houses?

EDIT: I sincerely doubt August. There's no way they could do all the editing and printing in that amount of time, even though they'd be working night and day on it. However, I do hope that it is released before next May, because that is when I begin serving a mission for my church, meaning I can't do anything (including read HP) except missionary work for two years (not that that's a bad thing)! If a mod thinks I shouldn't even mention religion in this context, feel free to delete it.

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The Niffler - Jun 29, 2004 11:41 pm (#237 of 2923)

I read that article--the text was a little misleading because the writer accidentally used the wrong tense. He/she was writing about how long it took for OotP to write, and then wrote "It comes out in August". It definitely meant "came out", in context.

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Denise P. - Jun 30, 2004 12:12 am (#238 of 2923)

Ravenclaw Pony
GoF in paperback is coming out in the US in August. I am sure somebody misread something and thought it was going to be HbP. Don't we wish....

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Laurelin - Jun 30, 2004 12:14 am (#239 of 2923)

I just wanted to say two things. 1. "Tom Riddle" could be the HBP if it cannot be "Voldemort.... In CoS Tom/Voldemort puts it quite clearly: "'Voldemort' said Riddle softly, 'is my past, present and future, Harry Potter...' He pulled Harry's wand from his pocket and began to trace it through the air, writing three shimmering words: TOM MARVOLO RIDDLE Then he waved the wand once, and the letters of his name rearranged themselves: I AM LORD VOLDEMORT" He clearly says: I AM, not: I WILL BE, or: I WAS, No matter at which time, HE IS! Smile There is no differentiation possible between those two. (IMO)

2. Who has said that the Half Blood Prince needs to be a half-blood himself?

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total hatred - Jun 30, 2004 12:28 am (#240 of 2923)

Half Blood Prince might a reference to a mind within Harry's mind. As you can notice, in certain situation Harry seems to be talking to himself. The personality of the respondent seems to be different. As if he is a more confident self of Harry.It ussually appears when Harry is in an emotional turmoil.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 30, 2004 12:41 am (#241 of 2923)

I know that and you know that, S.E. Jones... but I don't imagine the more fervent of the pure blood maniacs make much of a distinction between half bloods and mudbloods. As long as they're not pure-blood, they're trash seems to be the consensus from the pure blood freaks.

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Tergiversator - Jun 30, 2004 1:13 am (#242 of 2923)

Edited by Denise P. Jun 30, 2004 10:11 am
My favourite contender for the crown of "Half Blood Prince" is definitely Salazar Slytherin so far, even though it would initially seem highly unlikely for him to be impure.

He definitely played a role in CoS, a role which could have been reduced as JK wrote it - hence the reason why she changed the title. If Salazar were indeed a half-blood, perhaps he (or one of his parents) had some bad experiences with muggles, like Voldemort did. This would explain why he only wanted purebloods studying at Hogwarts.

It seems as if mudbloods and half-bloods would have been hated in "the olden days" too. Wizards had to marry muggles to pass on the magic, which is why there is only a small amount of discrimination now. Salazar Slytherin was undoubtedly an incredibly powerful and important wizard too regardless of his unfortunate lineage, so much so he might be touted as "The Halfblood Prince".

Finally, it could be argued that Salazar has important ties with both Harry & Voldemort; in that both were considered for Slytherin house and both are Parseltongues. I'm sure book six will go into the history of Professor Slytherin should he take the role of the titular prince. Is there anything else that would point to Sally?

A lot of these points fit for Godric Gryffindor too, but I really don't want Harry to be his heir as that would be annoying.

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Weeny Owl - Jun 30, 2004 1:22 am (#243 of 2923)

Madam Poppy said, "Once I read that Harry and Voldemort were NOT the 1/2 Prince, I committed my "vote" to the Tom Riddle group. I still remember thinking it was very odd that Dumbledore kept referring to Voldemort as "Tom" while they were dueling at the end of Order of the Phoenix. Add that to Chamber of Secrets dealing with Tom Riddle and my minds made up........for now."

There's also the fact that Harry told the Death Eaters in the Prophecy room that Voldie was a half-blood.

JKR has said we'll learn more about Voldie's birth in the sixth book.

Even though Tom Riddle, Jr. said in CoS that he was already known by some as Lord Voldemort, he was already sixteen by then. Perhaps the Half-Blood Prince is Tom Riddle, Jr., and we'll learn why after we learn more about his birth.

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total hatred - Jun 30, 2004 1:42 am (#244 of 2923)

Wait I just remembered something. In the first chapter of Gof, I remember that that 3 person are dead in the Riddle Mansion. Mr and Mrs Riddle and their son Tom. How come Voldie can kill himself and lived with his earthly body dead. Can you check this for me I don't my handy right now coz a friend borrowed it. Correct me if I am wrong.

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Tergiversator - Jun 30, 2004 1:45 am (#245 of 2923)

I don't think it's going to be Tom Riddle, as Tom Riddle IS Voldemort. Dobby never said the wicked plot at Hogwarts in book 2 had nothing to do with Voldemort. He said it had nothing to do with "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", and he was right, as Voldemort could be named back then. So I don't think JK would tell us that it's not Voldemort and then make it Tom Riddle.

Also, it has just come to my attention that Mr & Mrs Potter lived at Godric's Hollow (I'm sure plenty of you made the link, I never did)... perhaps this is important somehow, if Harry is to be the heir of Gryffindor or something like that?

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Ozymandias - Jun 30, 2004 1:57 am (#246 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
Total hatred, I believe that the Tom killed by Voldemort was Tom Sr. Voldemort is Tom Jr., so Voldemort killed his father and his paternal grandparents.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 30, 2004 1:58 am (#247 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Total Hatred, Voldemort killed his grandparents and father (Tom Riddle, Senior), not himself (Tom Riddle, Junior).

Tergiversator, we have some great threads regarding Godric's Hollow and it's link to Harry. Try 'Godric's Hollow' and 'The Heir of Gryffindor'.....

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total hatred - Jun 30, 2004 2:28 am (#248 of 2923)

oh I see. That figures it. I thought it was just a misprint

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 30, 2004 2:41 am (#249 of 2923)

Am rapdily doing some mathematics - to cover up my mistake of not believing the title.

J K Rowling put the title on the site at the weekend. (As I guessed the clue to hacking through the door did say that this title was accurate.) This would appear to mean that the book is nearly complete. The poting of the rumour and the real title at the same time was coincidence.

Now, removing August, as a school holiday in England. This means that the manuscript will be in the hands of the publishers in around two to three months. October or November. Allow six months for editorial process and you get the book being released April or May 2005.

This would allow film 3 to be released on DVD/Video with no clash of interests and the next film to come out between hard and paper back versions. So by my calculations Half Blood Prince will be out in the first half of 2005. Now where can I order my copy?

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Tergiversator - Jun 30, 2004 3:30 am (#250 of 2923)

Phelim: The announcement of the title says nothing about when the actual book will be released. Like The Leaky Cauldron says:

"It's worth noting that releasing this title has nothing, unfortunately, to do with book release date. She released the title for book five while doing press shortly after the release of Goblet of Fire - it was three years before we subsequently received the book."

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HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05) Empty HP6: the Half Blood Prince (Jun 04-Mar 05) (Post 251 to 300)

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:22 am

Choo Choo - Jun 30, 2004 4:20 am (#251 of 2923)
I don't think COS was going to be called Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince, I'm sure it was called Harry Potter and the Half Loved Prince. I can't think of where I read that, but I'm pretty sure I did.

I don't know if someone has already said that, there are SO many messages on the board.

Personally, I have no idea who the Half Blood Prince, unless Neville has some secrets in his closet that his Gran hasn't told him yet. The fact that one his parents is muggle-born, for instance.

But I suppose its been reinforced through the whole series that he is pureblood, because people compare his poor ability (pre-OOTP) to muggle borns to show that not all pure bloods are good wizards.

Although because Neville is getting good, does that still apply?

Maybe the Half Blood Prince is Malfoy? Thats why Lucius shows so much distaste toward him. But we do know that Narcissa is pure-blood. Is there anything about Lucius being pure-blood?

Maybe Lucius has pulled a "Voldy" by making people believe he is pure-blood, when he in fact, isn't.

Rob

Edit: I've just thought, maybe Lucius would be the Prince to Voldemort's Half Blood King.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 30, 2004 5:08 am (#252 of 2923)

I'm afraid both Draco Malfoy and Neville Longbottom are pure-bloods. J.K. Rowling says so about Neville in Chamber of Secrets (and yes, the title was originally going to be ...and the Half Blood Prince, not ...and the Half Loved Prince), and if you actually needed proof about Malfoy's lineage, you can find it in Order of the Phoenix as Sirius Black is discussing his family.

While discussing family, Sirius notes his favorite cousin (Andromeda) was removed from the family tree for marrying a muggle, but that both her sisters remained on the family tree because they married pure-bloods. Since one of the aforementioned cousin's sisters was Narcissa Black (who married Lucius Malfoy), and we know that she married a pure-blood, then we know both Lucius Malfoy and his son, Draco, are pure-bloods.

I also don't think Lucius Malfoy's lineage is something he could fake, because I don't think being a pure-blood, half-blood, or mudblood is really something you can fake in the wizarding world. Too many people would know better... and in any case, as is evidenced by comments made in Harry Potter's disciplinary hearing in OotP, the Ministry of Magic keeps official records of such things as wizarding lineage.

Oh yeah, and it may be slightly off the subject, but am I the only one who noticed J.K. Rowling said Draco Malfoy was forced to see Theodore Nott as an equal because his lineage was pure-blood (suggesting that Draco Malfoy would rather not accept the fact willingly).

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Choo Choo - Jun 30, 2004 5:30 am (#253 of 2923)

Lucius could have faked his lineage, just like Voldemort has. To all of his Death Eaters, Voldemort is pure-blood through and through, some of the Death Eaters refusing to believe Harry when he tries to enlighten them.

I think its at the end of OOTP when Harry is duelling with Bellatrix Lestrange when he tries to tell her that her master is half-blood. So surely Lucius could have duped them into thinking he was one as well. Its not like we have seen any proof that its possible to say that blood type is followed.

The Blacks followed it because it was something they were proud of, showing their infallible pure-bloodedness. But apart from that, I don't think any other system has been shown that says who is muggle-born, pure-blood or otherwise.

But then again, we haven't seen what else the Ministry gets upto. Those floating brains were very strange.

Rob

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veraco - Jun 30, 2004 5:34 am (#254 of 2923)

But in JKR has already told us that the title it's not related with Harry or Voldi... I think it's something to do with past characters, the four founders? Tom Riddle while he wast'n the Dark Lord? in this case could it be that some kind of evil versus good circle is involved? or someone else that at the same time it's present now, Dumbledore? He is a kind of prince to me, but I don't think it's him.... the Evans boy in book 5? I don't know why I kind of think of him when I heard the title. Anyway I like to have fun with Harry and right now I'm enjoying my self a lot, fake title (witch I think it's real) or not.

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FCBarca - Jun 30, 2004 6:16 am (#255 of 2923)

My idea is that the 'Half-Blood Prince' is Dumbledore, and I was going to post it a few hours ago, but my phone line was broke, so I couldn't go on-line, meaning Veraco beat me to it! Never mind. I hope it isn't Dumbledore, but it would make sense. We don't know anything about his parents, and he does like to keep up to date with the Muggle world by reading newspapers. It would be logical if he was half-blood (or has JKR said herself that he's pureblood?)

Also, the 'Prince' is probably a metaphor, and could mean 'hero'. Therefore, I believe it means the Half-blood hero, and that could apply to Dumbledore.

I hope I'm wrong, as I want it to be a new character.

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Bluenote1313 - Jun 30, 2004 6:33 am (#256 of 2923)

I always assumed that Dumbledore was a pure blood. First, knowing the wizarding world's bias against non-purebloods, I doubt he would have been a choice for Minister of Magic nor would he be running Hogwarts. Second, he has a wierd fascination with muggle candy and he insistes on learning and keeing up to date with muggles. If he were raised in a house where either his mom or dad was a Muggle I am sure he would already be familiar with all that stuff. Just my 2 cents worth.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 30, 2004 6:36 am (#257 of 2923)

Yeah, but there's a crowbar of separation between Voldemort's situation and Lucius Malfoy's situation. As Dumbledore has pointed out, very few people are aware of Voldemort's true identity. I doubt his Death Eaters even know his true name.

It's very EASY for him to say he's a pure blood because no one recognizes him as anything other than the grotesque entity of Lord Voldemort. In any case, would YOU argue with Lord Voldemort if he told you he was a pure-blood? I don't think most wizards would argue with him if he said he was a pure-blooded MOOSE. I think most of them would probably say "Yes, sir... nice rack of antlers. Just don't kill us like you did those guys over there. The look of horror frozen on their faces is telling us you're right."

Lucius Malfoy, on the other hand, has a very well known personal and family history. The Malfoy family seems to have a reputation as a pure blood family (remember Ron's comments in CoS "There are some wizards-- like Malfoy's family-- who think they're better than everyone else because they're what people call pure-blood."). Lucius Malfoy is active in the wizarding community. He's not just a pure-blood wizard, but he's a very well known pure-blood wizard.

All of this would suggest that he couldn't simply pop up out of nowhere and say "Hey everyone, look at me... I'm a pure blood wizard" and just get away with it because all the pure-bloods who were concerned with such things would say "Oh yeah, says who?"

And like I said earlier, we DO have proof such things are tracked. The Ministry of Magic seems to keep track of wizarding lineage (remember during Harry's disciplinary hearing Arabella Figg is instructed to leave her lineage with the Wizengamot so they can confirm her ancestry)... and we know there are magical methods for recording such things since Hogwarts uses a magically enchanted quill to record the names of British witches and wizards at the time of their birth... whether or not anyone around the little tyke happens to know of their proclivities for shrinking nasty puff ball sweaters, bouncing down the garden walk after a two story fall, or growing back hair overnight.

Of course, if you don't like any of that proof, you can always just take J.K. Rowling's word on it since she says on her website that the Malfoys are pure-bloods.

And to assuage veraco's doubts, Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince is indeed the title of book six. J.K. Rowling herself confirmed it under the "news" section of her website.

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Loopy Lupin - Jun 30, 2004 6:48 am (#258 of 2923)

Prefect Marcus sagely notes (#198), "Seriously, I think the 'prince' in question will be someone we've not met before. Perhaps an exchange student from Durmstrang or Beauxbatons."

I believe that is a good possibility, but where would the COS connection be as we don't meet any of these students until GOF. (And they certainly aren't mentioned in the film which, we have been led to believe, contains something significant that JKR insisted be left in.)

My personal vote, however, is Hagrid. I think I outlined some things in a previous post, but in a nutshell here they are: (1) COS & Book 6, HBP, are definitely connected and (2) of the characters that we meet or that are developed more fully in COS, I think Hagrid and the story of his explusion are the more compelling. JKR says that there were details she meant to include in COS, but decided that they belonged in Book 6 which she has now decided to call Half Blood Prince. In just trying to put myself in her position, I can see a situation where she wanted to tell us a lot more about Hagid's background and his time at Hogwarts, but needed to keep the story moving, so decided to scrap the details until later.

This can also be traced back to the "something small" in COS being very important in Book 6. We have been picking apart things such as why Percy was lurking around the Slytherin dungeon, Lucius' comments about Lily and James to Harry near the very end, and, of course, the Hand of Glory. I would never have thought of the flashback to Hagrid as being "small," but perhaps JKR's thinks of something as "small" on a different scale than we do?

Finally, thank you to the person several posts back that reminded everyone that Tom Riddle said Voldemort is his past, present and future. Tom=Voldemort, Voldemort=Tom. He was calling himself that during school. They are not two different people.

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Casey - Jun 30, 2004 7:10 am (#259 of 2923)

"My favourite contender for the crown of "Half Blood Prince" is definitely Salazar Slytherin so far, even though it would initially seem highly unlikely for him to be impure.

He definitely played a role in CoS, a role which could have been reduced as JK wrote it - hence the reason why she changed the title. "

Good idea. I think, better than the Hagrid idea. Although, it could also be Hagrid, because that relates to COS as well, I didn't feel like the plot line centered around the idea of Hagrid's involvement enough for him to be the half blood prince. Of course, we don't know how much of that story was cut from COS.

I also like the idea of it being someone we haven't met yet. I'm just happy that she stated quite plainly that it wasn't Harry or Voldemort, because my roommate thought he already had it figured out. HA!

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Alianora - Jun 30, 2004 7:11 am (#260 of 2923)

Lupin, I agree. It could be Hagrid, as it would fit with my theory as to what the "something small" could be (his aiming at Harry and Ron with a crossbow). Hagrid, though of course we think of him,is also a different sort of halfblood, a half giant.

I think also maybe the flashback scene was important for another reason. We see him talk to Tom, and Riddle talk to him. Granted, they were in different houses, and three years apart, but they could have been close friends. I mainly think this because Tom calls Hagrid by his first name. Even his friends now call him by his last. So I think maybe both events could become important in the next book, whether or not Hagrid does indeed turn out to be the HBP.

My only problem with it is that we only find out Hagrid's lineage in GoF. Still, that can be explained in that JKR had to rewrite in Rita Skeeter, and it had to do with her article. She could have just replaced the information when it didn't fit in CoS.

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Star Crossed - Jun 30, 2004 7:16 am (#261 of 2923)

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Alianora, maybe calling Hagrid by his first name is like calling everyone else by their last. Kidding.

However, I still like the idea of it being Godric Gryffindor. If Salazar and Godric were such good friends, why would such a seemingly petty fight break them up? Maybe Salazar saying to get rid of all muggleborns really offended Godric BECAUSE of his linage. It was like Salazar saying he was unpure. Since neither would give up their beliefs, Salazar left.

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Catherine - Jun 30, 2004 7:18 am (#262 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
I had a rather unfortunate bout of insomnia last night, so I entertained myself by pondering the "Who is the HBP?" Below is one scenario that I considered:

It's amazing how a night of no sleep can help one change one's mind about things. Initially, I was thinking that Hagrid could not be the HBP. But consideration of his placement in CoS made me change my mind. His mum does not seem to be an anonymous giantess, but instead Rita names her as Fridwulfa in GoF. Rita seems to allege that Fridwulfa was brutal and involved in the mass Mugggle killings, but offers no proof that she, personally, was involved. In OoP, we learn that the giants have chiefs. I wonder if Hagrid, though Fridwulfa, is descended from an important chief?

Dumbledore and Hagrid seem to be quite loyal to one another. Dumbledore trusts Hagrid with his life, and Hagrid is loyal enough to Dumbledore to slam Karkaroff against a tree for insulting Dumbledore. I find it telling that one of Voldemort's closest advisors, Lucius Malfoy, seems eager to get both Dumbledore and Hagrid away from Hogwarts, and I don't think it's just because of Hagrid's being part-giant and involved in the "Buckbeak" incident, or just because Dumbledore is sympathetic to Muggle-borns and other "half-breeds." Could Lucius know something about Hagrid that we don't? Two people who listen to Malfoy--Fudge and Umbridge--seem eager to do away with Hagrid. Umbridge even had aurors try to attack him under the cover of darkness.

I also find it telling that Umbridge, under the guise of inspecting teachers, tries to fire Trelawney, who is involved the prophecy, and Hagrid.

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Green Eyes - Jun 30, 2004 7:57 am (#263 of 2923)

I was scanning over COS again and one thing jumped out at me at the end when Harry frees Dobby from Lucius Malfoy. Harry questions Dobby about why he told Harry that the mystery behind the chamber wasn't about He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named - when Harry had just found out it was Voldemort. Dobby says "Was a Clue...before he became the Dark Lord he could be named..." So perhaps it is Tom Riddle and JKR is playing like Dobby here.

If this is not the case, then I am inclined to think of either Salazar Slytherin or Godric Gryffindor...someone from the past but that has connection to Harry/Riddle/Voldemort.

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Kieran Burke - Jun 30, 2004 8:06 am (#264 of 2923)

Forgive me is someone has already mentioned this, but isn't Dead Thomas half-blood? It says in J.K site that she was going to have a whole secret past concerning Dean come to light, where his real father was a wizard but was killed by Death Eaters and Dean was never told. Could this prince be him?

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 30, 2004 8:08 am (#265 of 2923)

Yeah, Dean Thomas is a half-blood. However, J.K. Rowling said she sacrificed any development of his story line so she could develop the story line of Neville Longbottom, so unless she's lying to us, Dean Thomas probably isn't the Half-Blood Prince.

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Jazhara Ravenclaw - Jun 30, 2004 8:29 am (#266 of 2923)

When I went through OotP last night looking over some other things I had found on JKR's site, I stumbled across some interesting quotes in that "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" chapter. Sirius says that is family was "convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal". Also I think someone on this thread might have mentioned earlier the "Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Geneology" book also found in this chapter of OotP.

As we know, the Black family was into the pure blood mania, so more generally, I think the pure blood families, sicne they are inter-related, could kind of consider themselves the "royalty" of the wizarding race, since from the title of the book, they might think that wizards are the nobles of the world, and any wizards whose blood is less pure, shall we say, would be much less noble, or at least not the royalty.

That was just some food for thought on how someone could be called a prince, and why it might be important for them to be called "Half Blood". This HBP could be someone really special/powerful if they're retaining that royalty-type mentality, even though they're half blood. I also like the idea of the "prince" title being used mockingly, and that could easily be applied to people other than LV/Riddle. Perhaps this HBP is someone we haven't met yet, and I like the idea of them being the next DADA teacher.

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Hogs Head - Jun 30, 2004 8:46 am (#267 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
If the HBP comes through the Black family, then the logical candidates would be Lucius, Draco or -- if a slight gender bender is allowed -- Tonks? Were their any other half-bloods like her in the Black line? The Weasley accountant cousin? I'll have to study the family tree again.

But I doubt it is in the Black family line (but obviously can't rule it out). The Hagrid theory is intriguing, as I've said before. A tie in with Dumbledore's defeat of the dark wizard in 1945 is also very interesting. A re-read of 'Chambers' certainly seems to be in order to review all possible theories.

My best guess so far is that the HBP is at least mentioned in 'Chambers.' I tend to doubt that it is someone from the ancient past, but that could be intriguing if it were so.

And, P.S., in answer to someone's post, since Lucius Malfoy knew that the Tom Riddle diary was one of Lord Voldemort's "old school things," I suspect he knows that Voldemort was previously Tom Riddle.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 30, 2004 8:48 am (#268 of 2923)

Yes, Lucius Malfoy would have known. That doesn't mean the rest of his Death Eaters did, though.

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Hogs Head - Jun 30, 2004 8:55 am (#269 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Hmmm. Just a thought -- do you think JKR answered the Mark Evans poll question by the Book 6 title, revealed behind the secret door and brick wall? Could Mark Evans be the HBP?

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Bluenote1313 - Jun 30, 2004 8:57 am (#270 of 2923)

I am on my 5th round of the books and just started OotP this past weekend, and then got the title of the book yesterday. Now I am noticing all the 'royalty' clues in the book....the ones mentioned a couple posts ago including about the book in the Black house. There are a few other that I recently noticed. Sirius' brother was named Regulus...seems to be a derivative of the word Regal. When Harry is at 12 Gimmauld Place he has a dream where both Hermoine and Ron are wearing crowns. Not that either of these mean anything other than now that we know the word "Prince" is in the title of the next book, how many references to royalty did she hide in the 5 books?

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 30, 2004 9:01 am (#271 of 2923)

Could the half-blood prince be Jason Finch Fletchley? He appears in Chamber of Secrets and in Order of the Phoenix, nut other than he was down to go to Eton do we know much else? He could be a half blood, and to go to Eton, and he would have gone around the same time as Prince William, is suggestive.

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FCBarca - Jun 30, 2004 9:03 am (#272 of 2923)

I think the connection between 'half-blood prince' and CoS is because half-blood's were getting attacked, and it would be fitting if she added the 'Half-blood Prince', or just a mention of him, in CoS, but decided that it would be better if it was put in book six, for reasons only she knows (I guess it has to be something with the plot.)

Bluenote1313, I hope you're right about Dumbledore being a pureblood. But about wanting Dumbledore to be Minister, Dumbledore is a person who is loved by the goodies, feared by the baddies, so I think they would want him in charge, regardless of blood. But you could easily be right, as they are quite prejudice. The other scenario is that no-one knows Dumbledore is half-blood. But I agree Dumbledore most probably is a pureblood, I was just saying it was possible he is a half-blood.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 30, 2004 9:04 am (#273 of 2923)

There is another possibility. What if the title referred to someone called a blood traitor aand abomination of my flesh. Is it possible that the title refers to Sirius Black?

I would argue that it is possible given that there exists a certain level of doubt as to whether Order of the Phoenix would be the last time we saw Sirius Black.

Best Regards, Nathan

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Catherine - Jun 30, 2004 9:07 am (#274 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Phelim wrote, "Could the half-blood prince be Jason Finch Fletchley?

Phelim, I know it was just a slip of the fingers, but I think you meant "Justin!" Smile

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Verschwinden Sie - Jun 30, 2004 9:12 am (#275 of 2923)

I believe Justin Finch-Fletchley is muggle born (a mudblood), not a half blood.

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Karla Labanda - Jun 30, 2004 9:25 am (#276 of 2923)

Buenos días a todos:

I don't know if somebody said this before. I can't read the previous messages, but I believe that the Half Blood Prince can be Dean Thomas; because in her website JKR gives a lot of information about him. Now we know that he is a wizard dad /muggle mom son. I don't think that JKR give us this kind of information if she is not going to use that.

Well, it is only my opinion.

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Casey - Jun 30, 2004 9:38 am (#277 of 2923)

I found this quote in the "7 Trials...PS/SS" thread. I thought it was very cool to read now that we know the title of the sixth book is related to the second.

In reference to the potions riddle: "popkin - Feb 23, 2004 4:20 am (#8 of 82) If the trial symbolizes the seven books, then the second left and second right "twins" would be books two and seven. Maybe the sixth book will echo the plot of the second."

Popkin...you may be a seer. Way to go!

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Chris. - Jun 30, 2004 10:09 am (#278 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
When I heard about something small in CS being big in future books, I immediately got out my edition and set to work.

One person who was introduced and described by Harry as "very small" was Colin Creevy, though he is a Muggleborn wizard.

Professor Flitwick is small too. And he could be a human-dwarf/elf wizard. Still a half-blood?...

Hagrid may become Gurg of the Giants and called by the Wizarding World, the Half-blood prince.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 30, 2004 10:32 am (#279 of 2923)

I Am Almighty!
Of course, if you don't like any of that proof, you can always just take J.K. Rowling's word on it since she says on her website that the Malfoys are pure-bloods.- Andrew Buchanan.

Andrew, or anyone else, do you have the actual quote?

The Malfoys are a rich and powerful family, and it is possible that they would be able to cover up a scandal in the past. I still like the idea or Draco finding out that he isn't as pure as he thinks.

But if JKR has come right out and said that Draco is a pure-blood, I'll admit he's not a possibility for the HBP.

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Kevin Corbett - Jun 30, 2004 11:56 am (#280 of 2923)

Well, I'm ecstatic as I can be about learning the title. As to who this prince chap is, I've got about a million theories, "each as unlikely as the next."

Known Halfbloods (er...that I can think of)

Hagrid: This could be it. Except, I've always thought that, being only half-human, Hagrid wasn't exactly a half-blood as much as a (not derogetorily used here) "half-breed". But I don't know. Perhaps we'll learn more about his father in HBP (I love not having to say "book 6" anymore!).

Lupin: This could be it too, and perhaps the focus will be on Lupin this time because he's getting the ax in this one. Maybe we'll be learning a bit of the family histories of both Lupin and the only other Maurader left, Pettigrew in this one, as we've already found out about Sirius's and a bit about James's. I'm thinking along these lines mainly because I do buy into the theory about Wormtails hand (silver) and Lupin lycanthopy coming into contact at some time, and at the expense of Lupin.

Seamus Finnigan: Eh. Maybe, I guess. He's always seemed like more of a periphral charecter to me, and I doubt JKR would just strike him into prominence all of the sudden.

Dean Thomas: I would say ditto here, if it weren't for that scrap of info on the JKR site that gives a bit of Deans history and tells that he was originally meant to be as prominent in the story as Neville is now. And learning that his father died, you know, "defying the Dark Lord" makes me wonder a bit. But the biggest doubt I have here is...well...I think that, whoever this Halfblood Prince is, I think it almost certainly has something to do with Godric Griffindor and his heir (tho I doubt this means Griffindor himself), but Dean is black, and, tho we don't know, I don't think Griffindor was black (note how lightly I tread the racial grounds here, because I don't mean any offence to anyone, least of all Dean Thomas himself, even though he sort of doesn't exist). Then again, maybe Dean's dead father was white (not that that would make him any better or worse as a wizard/person, of course!), and passed on the heirship to Dean...we don't know, I guess.

Ahem...well then...

Persons of Unknown Blood-Purity

Snape: Oooooh, this is a tantalizing one. I don't know---like I said, I think this has something to do with Griffindor, and I don't see Snape being his heir. But then again, has it ever been explicetly spelled out that Snape was in Slytherin? I really doubt that he wasn't, but stranger things have happened

Albus Dumbledore: Well, this might be it, but I doubt it. Like someone said a hundred or so posts back, DD already has a title, you know, "The Only One He Ever Feared". I don't doubt that there are a million things we don't know about DD we don't know, but I doubt this is one of them.

Aberforth Dumbledore: Could be, I guess, but it's just about as unlikely as Albus DD, and if not exactly as unlikely, only because we don't know much about him.

Mark Evans: You know, as much as I fear sounding like a fool, I really think this is it. I don't know why, but if Mark Evans has any significance at all, I couldn't think of a better one. I mean, we already know that Harry has some connection with Griffindor from pulling out his sword (tho we don't know if it's a blood connection or just a spiritual/philosophical sympathy). I think his most likely relation to Harry is third cousin---that is, that Lily's father had a brother who got married and had a wizard son [Lily's cousin, and a muggleborn] and he in turn married a witch and produced Mark, a halfblood thereby. Perhaps his parents, like Harry's, were killed in the VWI, and he too is living with muggle relatives or something (because Harry is the only wizard in Little Whinging). But, of course, I could be dead wrong.

That's about all the speculation I can muster right now.

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Laurelin - Jun 30, 2004 12:28 pm (#281 of 2923)

nimrod 2000 (#279 of 280) You asked for the quote that tells us that the Malfoys are pure-bloods... I think that's already quite clear from the books, but this should quieten all doubts:

JKR.com (Extra Stuff, Edits):However, in this scene Theodore's father (the same Nott who was badly injured in the closing chapters of 'Order of the Phoenix') goes to visit Lucius Malfoy to discuss Voldemort-related business and we see Draco and Theodore alone in the garden having a talk of their own. I really liked the scene, firstly because it showed the Malfoys' home, and the difference between the place where Draco has grown up and number four, Privet Drive; then because we rarely see Draco talking to anybody he considers a real equal, and he is forced to see Theodore as such, because Theodore is just as pure-blooded as he is, and somewhat cleverer. Together these two Death Eaters' sons discuss Dumbledore's regime at Hogwarts and Harry Potter, with all sorts of stories that the Death Eaters tell about how this baby boy survived the Dark Lord's attack.

I doubt that Dean could be the HBP... JKR decided to cut his story down to the bare minimum, to leave more room for Nevilles developement... that rules him out as a possible candidate imo. Smile

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 30, 2004 1:47 pm (#282 of 2923)

I Am Almighty!
Thanks, Laurelin, I thought that was probably the quote Andrew Buchanan meant.

Andrew, that quote does not prove that Draco is pure-blood. If she would would have said "because Theodore is just as pure-blooded as Draco thinks he is," well, that would sort of give it away. Also, JKR is talking about a potential scene from the books, and in the books up until this point, we know the Malfoys as a pure-blood family.

I don't think there are any quotes from JKR where she comes right out and says that Draco is pure-blooded, like she has about Harry never being a teacher or Crookshanks not being an Animagus.

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Hogs Head - Jun 30, 2004 2:55 pm (#283 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Since the book icon for "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" is now posted on the front page of the Lexicon, can we call off the "spoilers" thing and just talk about the HBP more openly?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 30, 2004 4:05 pm (#284 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Yes, Hogs Head, you can....

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Luanee - Jun 30, 2004 4:54 pm (#285 of 2923)

Got to re-read Chamber of Secrets tonight...

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Hem Hem - Jun 30, 2004 5:11 pm (#286 of 2923)

In Jo's pre-GoF chat, she said that Aragog would be making another appearance in the series--and he hasn't yet. Now, I'm not going to go all beserk and suggest that Aragog is the HBP, because that would probably elicit no responses besides laughter, but he was in CoS, and he will have some role in the next two books. So I thought I'd at least bring him up and add him to the things to keep in mind.

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Chris. - Jun 30, 2004 5:17 pm (#287 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Funny, Hem Hem, I was re-reading that chapter after RPS told me to follow the spiders... and I had a thought (which of course was crazy! ) that he might be.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jun 30, 2004 6:29 pm (#288 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Hi. I am new here, and speculating about this topic is what convinced me to sign up. Having read all the posts, I feel I can add a few things that have yet to be mentioned (at least in this thread that I saw). So here goes.

Dean Thomas- One of the big reasons I did not originally think the HBP was him is because he is a peripheral character that has been peripheral the whole time. However, I can see him getting a more prominent role in book 6, even if he is not the HBP. After all, at the end of OotP, Ginny announced she was now dating him. JKR said on here site that she added some small things in OotP so they wouldn't seem like they came out of left field in HBP. That is a small thing (only a line thrown in on the train and then abandoned). Maybe it was put there so we expected Dean to have a bigger role and were not shocked when he had an even bigger role. As for JKR abandoning the story line in favor of Neville because he seemed more important, maybe he was only more important at the time. The fact that Dean could be left out of CoS, doesn't mean he won't be important later.

Mark Evans- This could also be one of the small things JKR threw in because it will play a part in HBP. However, the fact that he has nothing to do with CoS is against him. Still interesting although probably already discussed in his thread.

Hagrid- This is the first person I thought of after Harry and Voldemort. Everyone has covered his half-blood and his connections to CoS. However, I have an idea how he could be a prince. I don't buy the prince of the giants because his mom is dead and his brother ousted. The giants don't like Hagrid too much. Giants don't have a royal line. The one that is strongest rules and that is not Hagrid. Instead I see his affinity and kinship to beasties and monsters as his princeship. He could lead a whole slew of monsters into the war against Voldemort. Maybe Harry asks Lupin why Hagrid is leading the Beasts instead of Dumbledore, to which Lupin replies "Dumbledore may be a prince among wizards, but Hagrid is truly a prince among beasts." Just a thought as I keep thinking of the phrase "prince among men" in connection to HBP. It would also allow Aragog back into the mix as the previous posters have discussed.

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popkin - Jun 30, 2004 6:47 pm (#289 of 2923)

mother
If Hagrid is the HBP, then he can't start out that way. He has to become Gurg, as Prongs said. If he does that, he will be in great danger, as he would be a very small Gurg, and larger giants would want to take his place. I don't think Hagrid could inherit a title like HBP.

It could be that the first born son of Godric Gryffindor is the HBP. The Sorting Hat tells us that the four founders got along just fine teaching the students they chose for their four houses, until..... Until exactly what? Something that elicited strong emotions had to come between them. Perhaps Godric's love interest put a strain on the friendship with Salazar Slytherin. Salazar, in an attempt to undermine the romance, latched on to the fact that Godric's love was a muggle (pure speculation), and things went south from there. Godric, in true Gryffindor fashion, continued the courtship, married his true love, and their first born son became the HBP.

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koala marpusial - Jun 30, 2004 8:18 pm (#290 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
I, like, Wandless Wizard, was prompted to sign up because I had an idea about who the HBP could or could not be...

Hagrid, although he has a connection to CoS, just doesn't seem likely because his parentage has been stated more than once as not being royal and he does not seem to have the power a metaphorical 'prince of beasts' would have over other magical creatures -- he takes a beating to coax the smallish Grawp into the forest... and is unsuccessful in persuading other creatures to join Dumbledore's side.

If Hagrid really is the HBP, I would be disappointed... at least with the clues and evidence provided by earlier books...

But, I think that we may discover another relation to Voldemort... possibly even a brother, who would also be a half-blood

I think it is important to remember, however, that the HBP does NOT have to be alive at the time of the tale... but can still figure prominently

--- No matter what, though, we can narrow the possible characters down on a few accounts

1. no girls, as the HBP is a prince 2. no purebloods, as the prince is half-blood 3. no characters introduced after book 2

With that in mind, there really aren't many choices of the characters in the books as to who is the HBP -- and unfortunately in my opinion hagrid looks to be one of the MOST likely

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koala marpusial - Jun 30, 2004 8:25 pm (#291 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
hmm... could the new DADA teacher be the HBP?

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aberforth dumbledore's #1 fan - Jun 30, 2004 9:09 pm (#292 of 2923)

I don't think the possible candidates for the HBP will be limited to the characters from the 2nd book , I think that when she said it was directly related to book 2 it could have just been the whole pure-blood thing. But theres no way to really know at this point so I guess anything is possible. yurre noht eliterut frend Aberforth Dumbledore

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Madam Poppy - Jun 30, 2004 9:16 pm (#293 of 2923)

Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Jun 30, 2004 9:18 pm
While all the emphasis of our discussions has been on the actual person who is the Prince, I think you all have forgotten what the Title for Book Six is about.

Are we talking about:
Harry Potter (and = fighting against) a Half Blood Prince?
Harry Potter (and = joining forces/working with) a Half Blood Prince?

From Book One on Harry has been battling Voldemort in one form or another. I just don't see the next book being, "Harry Potter and 1/2 Blood Hagrid", or "Harry Potter and 1/2 Blood Mark Evans".

I'm more convinced than ever we are talking about "Harry Potter and Half Blood Tom Riddle".

Poppy

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koala marpusial - Jun 30, 2004 9:30 pm (#294 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
Oh dear... I see... you haven't seen JKR's relatively recent rebuttal of that widely held theory.

Unfortunately for thousands of supposed Trelawney's out there making predictions, which now includes you, (and it included me to a certain extent) JKR refuted that statement.

"the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort..." to paraphrase

Which is why I suggest it could be a relation of Voldemort, or the new DADA teacher, or the heir of one of the founding four of Hogwarts

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Madam Poppy - Jun 30, 2004 9:32 pm (#295 of 2923)

Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Jun 30, 2004 9:36 pm
Sorry, I'm in the Tom Riddle and Voldemort can be classified as 2 separate entities group.
*see Weeny Owl - Jun 30, 2004 1:22 am (#243 of 295)

Poppy

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S.E. Jones - Jun 30, 2004 9:54 pm (#296 of 2923)

Let it snow!
There are many that believe she is using a slight play on words with her statement that the title refers to neither Harry nor Voldemort, as Dobby did in CoS. Read up some posts and you'll find their arguments.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jun 30, 2004 9:58 pm (#297 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Madam Poppy said: "From Book One on Harry has been battling Voldemort in one form or another. I just don't see the next book being, 'Harry Potter and 1/2 Blood Hagrid', or 'Harry Potter and 1/2 Blood Mark Evans'."

You are right that Harry has fought Voldemort from the first book, but never has Voldemort in any form been in the title. It has never been an enemy, only a neutral object. The only exceptions were OotP and PoA. Those were both Harry's allies even though PoA didn't let us in on that fact until very late. So while history could change to have an enemy be the subject of the title, I think that would be better served as Book 7.

koala marpusial wrote: "[Hagrid] does not seem to have the power a metaphorical 'prince of beasts' would have over other magical creatures -- he takes a beating to coax the smallish Grawp into the forest... and is unsuccessful in persuading other creatures to join Dumbledore's side."

Smallish Grawp? He is small for a giant which is still huge. The only ones Hagrid is unsuccesful persuading is the giants. Hagrid eventually trained Grawp, sort of. Hagrid has also tamed fluffy, Aragog, and he tamed the Thestrals. Can you imagine an army of Aragog's spiders with Fluffy, Norbert, Grawp and some other monsters we can't imagine flying on the thestrals. That would be dangerous.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jun 30, 2004 10:03 pm (#298 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Just had another thought. I believe JKR has said that we will eventually learn from where all the money in Harry's vault came. We know he inherited it from his parent's but where did they get it? Maybe it has something to do with the half-blood prince. Could James have been a prince? Do we know if he was pure-blood? I know this has been discussed but don't think any firm conclusions were drawn.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 30, 2004 10:20 pm (#299 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Wandless Wizard, we know that James inherited the money, but that's about it.

I actually made a post on it being James some time ago. I think it fits very well with Catherine Allen's comments about the book in Grimmauld Place ("Nature's Nobility...") and Sirius's comment that his family believed that to be a Black made you "practically royal" (I think this is true of most purebloods).

EDIT: Found the old post (#203).

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fizzingwhizbees - Jun 30, 2004 10:49 pm (#300 of 2923)

If the HBP is referring directly to a real prince (member of royal family) and since it was a possibility of being the title of CoS, these are some predictions. Probably unlikely. You never know with J.K. Rowling. 1) Mark Evans (we don't know enough about him to rule him out. if he is an Evans related to Harry, most likely, he is half-blood) 2) Lupin? (can anyone confirm his geneology- can you call it that?) 3) someone who hasn't been introduced (I like the idea of the DADA teacher and new minister of magic) 4) Justin Finch-Fletchy (stretching here but because he was introduced in CoS and that the whole Prince thing refers to the muggle side of the family (though, I don't know how that will relate to the continuing plot...) He also mentioned he might have attended Eton which is the only school I really know of in England and it's a prestigious, boarding school. (Prince William went there) I'm not positive he was half-blood, but his mother was a muggle which makes it a possibility.

Now, I don't know how she would introduce this concept to us, but a Royal Wizarding family? It might be like the question of how were house points being taken which wasn't explained until book five. She just might have not mentioned that there was a whole Royal Wizarding community and blame it on Harry's ignorance. (But the phone booth doesn't work. why are you talking to a mannequin?) or perhaps the inability to have the superhuman powers to drown out boredom in history of one such as Hermione.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my calculations: pureblood + pureblood = pureblood wow, didn't see that one coming Smile pureblood + anything else = halfblood muggle + muggle = mudblood

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S.E. Jones - Jun 30, 2004 11:01 pm (#301 of 2923)
Let it snow!
Halfblood + something should also equal halfblood, at least until you have enough generations of "purebloods" or whatever to "weed out" the "impure" blood. That's the way it works with geneologies.

I don't think the "Prince" part of the title refers to actual royalty though, more the images the title conjures. Sirius was the 'Prisoner of Azkaban' but was never referred to as such (i.e. by those words) in the book. The Philosopher's Stone, the Chamber of Secrets, the Goblet of Fire, and even the Order of the Phoenix were all things (the Order being an organization), not a person as the 'Prisoner of Azkaban' was....

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Ozymandias - Jul 1, 2004 12:15 am (#302 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
Madam Poppy, I posted a bit of my theory on what HBP will be about. (No more until I do a re-read of CoS.) I think that it's "Harry Potter and (and=finds out about and uses this information to his advantage) the HBP. I'm too lazy to go back and link to the post, so I'll just say that the HBP is Godric Gryffindor, his blood status caused the animosity with Slytherin, and he left something behind to combat the Chamber of Secrets, which I don't think we've seen the end of. Secrets is plural. A basalisk is just one secret.

I, too am curious to hear from those who think the HBP is Hagrid, Mark Evans, Dudley or others. How will these people as HBP play into the story?

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Choo Choo - Jul 1, 2004 12:23 am (#303 of 2923)

If Hagrid was the Half Blood Prince, maybe it signifies the giants being accepted back into the Wizarding World with Hagrid at their helm. So the giants wouldn't be siding with Voldemort, but because of Hagrid's reciprocated fondness for Dumbledore they join forces for good.

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Magical Max - Jul 1, 2004 1:21 am (#304 of 2923)

What about Viktor Krum? He could be from an East-European royal family. Let's face it - we don't know much about him. Viktor could come back as an exchange student.(in exchange for Malfoy? )Given how well he got on with HRH, it would be interesting to see him team up with the trio to stop VM. Not to mention the spanner this would throw into Ron and Hermione's budding romance ;-)

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Laurelin - Jul 1, 2004 1:52 am (#305 of 2923)

koala marpusial (#290 of 303): No matter what, though, we can narrow the possible characters down on a few accounts 1. no girls, as the HBP is a prince 2. no purebloods, as the prince is half-blood 3. no characters introduced after book 2

ad 1. I agree, it's most likely a boy/man, either living or dead

ad 2. Again, who has said that a Half Blood Prince needs to be a half-blood????? Personally I think it is likely, but I don't believe it to be necessary!

ad 3. Who has said that? JKR said that she was thinking about talkig about the HBP in CoS (enough to name the book after him), but imo that doesn't limit the choice of candidates to characters from PS/CoS only... (though, since I believe it could very well be G. Gryffindor or A. Dumbledore (and I think he is a "pure-blood", just as G. Gryffindor)), I have no problems with that limitation. Very Happy )

About the "royal blood": HBP could, imo, also be a honorary title, given either out of respect or in order to mock the person... I think it's too early (and too little information) to deduct that the Wizarding World has or has had a Royal Family. Imo there is a feeling of "nobility" in pure-blood families, but that isn't the same as a monarchy... there are other possibilities besides Democracy and Monarchy, how about a wizarding Aristocracy/Oligarchy?

Madam Poppy(#295 of 303): Sorry, I'm in the Tom Riddle and Voldemort can be classified as 2 separate entities group. see Weeny Owl - Jun 30, 2004 1:22 am (#243 of 295)

Tom Riddle says it quite clearly "I AM Lord Voldemort" (CoS, chapter 17, p.231, brit. ed. PB) For the full quote, see my post: (#239 of 304) Personally I think there is a tendency to read to much into JKR's answers. Smile

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 1, 2004 3:05 am (#306 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Laurelin wrote: "ad 2. Again, who has said that a Half Blood Prince needs to be a half-blood????? Personally I think it is likely, but I don't believe it to be necessary!"

Grammatically speaking, half-blood is an adjective to describe prince. So it might have a different meaning than not pure-blooded, but it has to in some way describe the prince. I think somebody mentioned it could describe Mr. Weasley as the Prince of the Half-bloods. This would be grammatiaclly incorrect as that would be the Half-bloods' Prince. Notice the apostrophe. However, I think it should probably say half-blooded prince, but maybe that is the difference between British English (JKR) and American English (me).

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popkin - Jul 1, 2004 3:37 am (#307 of 2923)

mother
I think we're going to see a positive relationship between Harry and the HBP. I don't have any real reaon for that other than the word "prince" conjurs a positive image - as in "some day my prince will come", or "prince of thieves", or "prince among men". Also, if being a halfblood does not diminish the prince's station, then it also sounds like someone who is tolerant of races other than wizards.

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Dean Thomas - Jul 1, 2004 6:55 am (#308 of 2923)

Edited by Denise P. Jul 1, 2004 2:09 pm
I think JKRowling has lost her touch. I mean what kind of bloody name is "Harry Potter and the Halfblood Prince"?

Dean Thomas, personal remarks about JKR are completly unacceptable on this Forum. Please think carefully before you post again and perhaps you should re-read The Philosophy of the Forum Denise P. Lexicon Forum Host

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Green Eyes - Jul 1, 2004 7:25 am (#309 of 2923)

I still think it's Tom Riddle...read the end of COS!!! Harry asks Dobby why he said the chamber incidents didn't have anything to do with HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED (Voldemort)...Dobby saids (paraphrase) it was a clue! Before he became the Dark Lord, he could be named....

I think JKR is playing like Dobby....Dobby makes the distinction between Tom Riddle and Voldemort being two separate individuals at least for a time!

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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 1, 2004 7:48 am (#310 of 2923)

Sometimes known as Kim.
Put me in the camp of people (I do hope it's more than just me ), who interpret the title as a cooperative relationship between Harry and the Half Blood Prince. I don't have any reasoning for it, just a hunch. But I just don't get a negative vibe. How Trelawney of me! And probably just as accurate.

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Mademoiselle Fleur - Jul 1, 2004 7:50 am (#311 of 2923)

I agree with Green Eyes. It HAS to be Tom! It fits.

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Catherine - Jul 1, 2004 8:26 am (#312 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
More insomnia, more Potter pondering!

I keep waffling on "who" the HBP would be, even though I'm not sure that this is exactly what the title refers to. I recently posted some thoughts on Hagrid, but I've got other ideas. Mostly, I wonder if the HBP is more the discovery process than the actual individual, much like PoA.

On that note, I skimmed through OoP, and noticed how many times Sirius was referred to as "the last of the Blacks." We have Sirius's references to his parents' pure-blood mania, supported by his mum's vitriolic outbursts from the portrait. We also saw the Nature's Nobility book in 12 Grimmauld Place. Finally, Dumbledore alludes to Harry's upbringing, noting that he did not arrive at Hogwarts as a "pampered prince." I was never sure who exactly that referred to, but my thoughts usually turn to James and Sirius on this one, or else Draco Malfoy.

So perhaps Sirius was not "really" the last of the Blacks at all?

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koala marpusial - Jul 1, 2004 8:37 am (#313 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
Well that's a nasty trick! When I heard the character was probably also prominent in CoS, I, like millions of other people (an estimation), thought of someone who a) had heck of a lot of power b) was a half-blood c) was major in CoS d) was a man or boy

so, I thought, it is Tom Marvelo Riddle... who later became Voldemort

But it seems Rowling left a huge gaping hole in the plot line which she will probably fill in in the HBP... I'm guessing we'll learn a lot more about the transition from Tom to Voldemort

Then JKR came out with her statement and crushed my hopes of what seemed to be an obvious prediction.

But if you are saying JKR's anagram in CoS (tom marvelo riddle -- i am lord voldemort) doesn't prove that Tom and Voldemort are entity, then so be it!

I would love to believe that my initial thoughts were right after all. So, I guess I join the camp that they are two separate entities.

My only misgiving at this point is that I would think this prince has to be heir to something or someone... a descendant of someone of important lineage, even if it isn't true 'royalty'. I would love to believe this 'king' is Salazar Slytherin but I think more speculation would help to bring some light to the issue of what the prince is inheriting or taking over in the book.

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FCBarca - Jul 1, 2004 8:47 am (#314 of 2923)

Although the Half-blood Prince could be Tom Riddle, I hope it isn't. I much prefer it that Tom Riddle is Voldemort, through and through. I admit that that is not necessarily true, but I hope it is. I see Tom as an evil kid, who chose to change his name, purely because Tom Riddle is a Muggle name, and he hates Muggles (because of his up bringing, and spending most of his youth hating his father and carrying that over to all Muggles, I presume.) I hope Voldemort is the same person as Tom, who does the same things, and has the same personality.

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Catherine - Jul 1, 2004 8:55 am (#315 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
I was listening to PoA in my car a little while ago, and I was suddenly reminded of the HBP when Percy was made head boy.

Remember when Fred and George were joking that the Ministry was sending a car just because of Percy, and that the car would have flags with "HB" on them? Head Boy Percy (or Humongous Bighead Percy or Humongous Bighead Prefect) = HBP!

Ok, I'm joking, only joking. I know that Percy is a pureblood. But he was lurking around a lot in CoS!

Cheers!

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Fawkes Forever - Jul 1, 2004 9:24 am (#316 of 2923)

Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Amazon.co.uk are offering a service to put yourself on a mailing list to let you know when they are taking prebookings for HBP ..... Wonder when we will get an idea of the publication date... I'm too excited.....

Oh... just spotted the PoA CD set for 22.40 (stg).... hmmm, tempting.....

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Charms - Jul 1, 2004 9:52 am (#317 of 2923)

This title is definitely growing on me. The more thought I give to it, the more intriguing it becomes. One thing that strikes me about it is that, given what we know about the prejudices of the Wizarding World, "HBP" seems to be a contradiction in terms. I can picture it being a title that is thrust on someone derisively (not by Rowling, but by those in the WW). I think there are a few good candidates for this one, but I'm leaning toward the Tom Riddle camp. The only thing keeping me from commiting to this theory is the nagging question of Mark Evans.

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mike miller - Jul 1, 2004 10:00 am (#318 of 2923)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Koala - you are correct in that there is a lot of holes for JKR to fill in the story line so that everything will fit together by the end in book 7. HBP could very well contain more information about the past than any of the previous books. We need backstory on the Marauders, James and Lily; and, Tom to Voldemort's transformation at the very least.

I am firmly in the camp (with Poppy, Green Eyes, Weeny Owl and others) that Tom and Voldemort are two distinct entities. Saying you are something and being recognized by others as that thing are entirely different. I speculated several month ago that being able to "reach" the Tom inside Voldemort may be a link in defeating him.

As to who the HBP is, the most obvious is Tom. If JKR is not play Dooby with her comments, then the doors open wide. I know many have speculated about Mark Evan. I don't think we've been given enough about him for it to be true; even with Scabbers we knew he was missing a finger and that's all they found of Peter. It was at least one obscure clue.

The other option that makes sense to me is Godric Gryffindor (or his son). The whole blood line thing being central to CoS and Tom being the heir of Slytherin makes it quite possible that we need the Gryffindor half of the equation.

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Neville Longbottom - Jul 1, 2004 10:09 am (#319 of 2923)

Maybe the half-blood prince is the son of Percy and Penelope. They both played a pretty important role in CoS after all.

Okay, maybe not.

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Padfoot - Jul 1, 2004 11:10 am (#320 of 2923)

I like the idea of Mark Evans or someone we haven't been introduced to yet. I'm hoping this HbP will be an allie of Harry's. And for the record, I think HbP is not bad for a title.

I am getting excited about HbP coming out soon. June is my guess, although that isn't soon enough!

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Dumbledore - Jul 1, 2004 11:13 am (#321 of 2923)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
Neville, that is actually a very interesting idea. We don't know if Percy and Penelope broke up, and we certainly have no idea how Percy and Penelope's relationship developed when Percy was away from home in Order of the Phoenix...it could be very possible that a half blood son was born. Thinking about that theory now, I really like it! It would be very unexpected, but highly logical.

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Peregrine - Jul 1, 2004 11:38 am (#322 of 2923)

Do we know officially what Peter is? Pure Blood, Half Blood? Although, I don't know how it could be Peter...I don't see how she could have introduced him in CoS without it ruining PoA (but then again, I'm not JKR). It would be interesting to see Peter be the subject of the whole next book since he was very absent from the last one and we know his life-debt to Harry will be important soon....

If not Peter I'm leaning towards Lupin (just because I would like to see more of him), Gryffindor and Mark Evans.

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Cezar Salem - Jul 1, 2004 11:42 am (#323 of 2923)

Ok, First ( should have said this sooner but I Wasnt able to post till now) Congrats to TGF wich as the first person to truly believe and defend till death that the title on Rowling.com was true.... Now, as for my thoughts...: I made a list with peoples that struck ou to me while rereading CoS yesterday : Filch,Hagrid,Draco,Justin,Lockhart,Snape.at first, I discart Snape and lockheart. Now Filch I thought possible for these reasons:1) JK said someone will be showing magic abilities very late in life.2)Something that Neville said in CoS srtuck to me. he said to Harry: Filch was the first one to be struck, Im almost a squid myself Im in danger( something like that, my sis is now curently reading the book So I can make an exact quote). Jk certantly made a point of pointing it out that Filch was the first one to be struck,especialy since it was the cat ( Mrs Norris) and not Filch himself that was atacked.Unless she already knew that Tom was after him in the first place... Either that or then that she just confirms that there definatly is some weird link betwen cats and Squibs .And from what I presume, Filch has been around ever sincec Tom Riddle was at school. And Dumbledore seems to want to keep hime even when Filch showed no signs of loyalty towards him and emidiatly helped Umbridge.3) Draco : I am discarding him as well as he seems to be a pureblood and there doesnt even seem to be clues to point otherways( but the storch marks do bother me, the whole hand of glory thing does) Hagrid: He is definatly a possible chance, seing as his story is told in CoS and he a Key (literaly) caracter in the books,and would be a Big ( literaly again) suprise. Also, something I came up with while reading the forum is that someonte mentioned a dream that harry had were Hermione and Ron where wearing a crown... I know this is a streach, but what if the HBP was their son? He would be a half blood plus it woudld be one of the things that where on the PoA movie, causing JKR to have gossebumps... So mainly my two theories are: Filch and Hr and Rons son... Sorry for any mistakes( Im brazilian)

Edit: Its not Justin cause he is muggleborn ( forgot to say why I discarted him lol)

Edit agin : I just found the quote!!! And now I have read it again I am almot adopting it as my one true theory : CoS American version page 185 :They went for Filch first , Nevile said, his round face fearful.And everyone nkows Im almost a Squib. REALY wierd, That rowling says FILCH and not Mrs Norris, she just confirms the link... Hope you guys have some good thougts on this to help my mind go straight again...

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 1, 2004 12:40 pm (#324 of 2923)

...it could be very possible that a half blood son was born. Thinking about that theory now, I really like it! It would be very unexpected, but highly logical. -- Dumbledore

Hermione and Ron where wearing a crown... I know this is a streach, but what if the HBP was their son -- Cezar Salem

Well, I must say that I don't think that the HBP is going to turn out to be any child recently born to anyone, least of all Hermione. It wouldn't fit the tone of the series at all. What's more, I can't see how a baby born within the past year could have any ties to COS. Plus, Percy is definitely a pure-blood, but do we really know what Penelope is?

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Dumbledore - Jul 1, 2004 12:43 pm (#325 of 2923)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
We know that Penelope was muggleborn because she was attacked in CoS.

Edit: Also, the whole Penelope/Percy relationship was introduced in CoS, so it would fit that it would have a connection with book 6.

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Catherine - Jul 1, 2004 12:43 pm (#326 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Actually, Loopy, I always assumed that Penelope was muggleborn, as she was attacked by the basilisk at the same time as Hermione. But I can't think of a specific reference that tells us either way.

We know that everyone else who was attacked by the basilisk (aside from Nick and Mrs. Norris) was muggleborn.

EDIT: Dumbledore beat me to it!

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S.E. Jones - Jul 1, 2004 12:46 pm (#327 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Fudge makes a comment on how many Muggle-borns have been attacked, and, if you count them up, Penny should be included in there....

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 1, 2004 12:52 pm (#328 of 2923)

LOL, its a race around here today. I forgot about her being attacked. (Stupid movie contamination; interesting though, that Penelope being attacked wasn't something that JKR insisted remain in the film).

I think I shall jump on the re-reading COS bandwagon pronto. Oooh. I'll get it on tape for my drive this weekend. Sweeeet!

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Czarina II - Jul 1, 2004 3:27 pm (#329 of 2923)

I think that the Halfblood Prince is someone that we haven't met yet, but has been mentioned in the previous books. Sirius Black, who turned out to be the Prisoner of Azkaban, was briefly named in PS. I don't think that ANYONE wondering who the "Prisoner of Azkaban" was (back in 1998 or so) would have guessed it was Sirius.

Godric Gryffindor is the most likely candidate on my list. He has been mentioned a few times, but (since he lived 1000 years ago) we've obviously never met him. Do we really have to meet him in HbP? No, we don't. We would just learn more about him. He might very well hold a clue to defeating Voldemort.

However, it would make more sense for the Prince to be someone that Harry can actually interact with. Perhaps, like in PoA, we won't actually meet the Prince until the last few chapters. He will just be an offscreen character until then.

Can anyone with a sharp eye (something I lack immensely) throw in some names we have overlooked in the past books? Someone mentioned once or twice, most likely in CoS? Someone who until now has had no consequence to the plot?

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koala marpusial - Jul 1, 2004 3:50 pm (#330 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
I don't think filch was around when tom was because...

Molly Weasley in either GoF or OP reminiscesa bout her days at hogwarts, saying something to the extent of "i remember the caretaker in my school days, it was _____"

and i forget the exact name but it definitely was not argus filch

therefore, i doubt you're correct at all in that part of your post

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Star Crossed - Jul 1, 2004 3:53 pm (#331 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Koala, you're thinking of GoF, right before the third task. Also, I think it was groundskeeper named Og or something, not caretaker.

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Nymphadora - Jul 1, 2004 4:19 pm (#332 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 1, 2004 4:19 pm
Oh well... somebody beat me to the fact that Harry saw Ron and Hermione wearing crowns in his dream, but you can't imagine how much I jumped when I read THAT bit in OotP last night!!

"Mrs Weasley sobbed over Kreacher's dead body, watched by Ron and Hermione who were wearing crowns, and yet again Harry found himself walking down a corridor ending in a locked door." (OotP, Chapter 10)

I don't know whether it is significant, but in this modestly long sentence, there is reference to the woes of Mrs. Weasley, a relative of whom is probably candidate for dying in HbP; the house-elves, a magical species that still has unfinished business in WW; Ron and Hermione who complete the trio, and in having been made prefects over Harry (although it was not for his lack of ability/responsibility, merely because DD didn't want to burden him more) they are higher in superiority in Hogwarts and Gryffindor; and finally, the Department of Mysteries, some of the mysteries in which we already encountered (Time, Intelligence, Foretelling, Death, and Dumbledore spoke about Love). My guess is that we are going to find out loads more about each of these topics in HbP, and this dream was foreshadowing.

In the next chapter, I had to jump again:

"Nearly Headless Nick looked highly affronted.

'Terrified? I hope I, Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington, have never been guilty of cowardice in my life! The noble blood that runs in my veins -'

'What blood?' asked Ron. 'Surely you haven't still got -?'

'Its a figure of speech!' said Nearly Headless Nick" (Ch. 11, p. 189)

Wow!!! See what you may find when you have hints... Both blood and mention of nobility in a sentence! What I had been thinking ever since I knew the title is Godric Gryffindor and his bloodline, and it has long occurred to me that the ghosts for each house have something to do with the Hogwarts founders. Harry appears to be a true Gryffindor, but we still not have enough of fate explaining why Voldemort chose him as equal and not Neville; it would be nice if he was his descendant as well, and therefore chosen by fate to be the one who can (and must) defeat the heir of Slytherin. I liked the idea of Gryffindor coming to odds with his "good friend" Slytherin because he loved a Muggle woman, or even Muggle-born witch, and I think I will stick to that: the Half-Blood Prince being their son, related to Harry and aiding him in some way to defeat Voldemort.

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Cezar Salem - Jul 1, 2004 4:31 pm (#333 of 2923)

I must admit when i am outwited...you are in fact right,the exact quote is :He got caught by Apollyon Pringle-he was the caretaker in those days. But I still think it quite weird that Rowling said "they went for filch" Almost like she herself is making that observation, not neville.I definatly think that filch will be important to book six, especialy with th story behond the special link with cats. I think that the neville quote is kind of a lead on that they are linked in a special way ( if you atack norris your atacking filch).

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Cezar Salem - Jul 1, 2004 4:35 pm (#334 of 2923)

YOUU Nimphadore you got to that point before me! I had seen that and wrote a HUMONGOUS post wich I saved up and was going to put on old Forum. then I had to change and printed it out and was triyng to figure out how to make a new tread ( i signed up for this one only now cause I waited my new computer. ) but you beat me... oh whel

EDIT: I realized I wasnt very clear... My original thought was that Nearly Headed nick was directly related to Godric Gryffindor and that he would be a great sorce of knolledge to Harry, like he was in the end of OotP. Its that I read the books once, looking for all the cut out frases. I have to find my paper, but I discticly remeber one with hagrid in SS but oh well... But Nymphadiora, I think your right on.. Nick might have something to say about this Prince and that cut out frase realy bugs me( Why ron, Why did you have to make your joke!? Just let him finish the sentece!! )its just like how they never let ginny finish her sentece in CoS and then whe find out it would have told us Percy was dating (not that that is important.. or is it, to those who thinks Penny and Percy will have a kid that will be the HBP?)

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Marye Lupin - Jul 1, 2004 5:11 pm (#335 of 2923)

"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
Well I think Nick can't be Godric's son because he would be too young (judging by the date on his Deathday cake) and the fact that Hogwarts has been around for a thousand years.

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Spooky - Jul 1, 2004 5:36 pm (#336 of 2923)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's been considering Hagrid as a possibility. For a Hogwarts employee he's been kept remarkably close in the loop on things.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 1, 2004 5:46 pm (#337 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Cezar Salem- I do not see that line from Neville having too much significance. Mrs. Norris and Filch are very close, almost like a famailiar (even though he is a squib). Plus, if you really want to attack someone, you attack the things they care about. When Voldemort wanted to draw Harry out, he had to figure out who Harry cared the most about. Nobody thought Mrs. Norris herself was the reason for the attack, given the message on the wall. They realized that somebody didn't like Filch. Plus the rumor probably got around that Filch was a squib. How else would Neville have known? The kids are smart enough and knew enough to figure out that Filch was the real target (in reality I am not sure he was, but that is not relavant to this thread).

Ok, now for an out-there theory. Something in the quote Nymphadora posted got my brain churning and when it starts, I can't control where it goes. Nick said he had no blood. What if the half-blood statement does not refer to lineage, but literally to the amount of blood in the body? In some Vampire myths, Vampires have to drink blood because they do not have much of their own. They have half as much blood as normal people. Plus Vampires are almost always aligned with nobility (Prince of Darkness, Count Dracula, etc). What if a Vampire plays a key role in the events of HBP? The kids have studied them, so we know they exist in the HP universe. Also, when did they study them? If it was CoS, I might be on to something. Maybe instead of Aragog, Harry was supposed to meet a Vampire in the Forbidden Forest. Realizing, this was best saved for later, JKR took Aragog (who we were supposed to meet later) and moved him up. Ok, probably not. I told you it was an out-there theory.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 1, 2004 6:06 pm (#338 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 1, 2004 6:07 pm
Hmmmm, a vampire. It is no more "out there" than half the serious theories being tossed around on this board.

How would it have fit in CoS?

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Hem Hem - Jul 1, 2004 6:07 pm (#339 of 2923)

For Czarina: You asked if anybody wanted to throw out a name of a one-liner type character from CoS who may be seen again. Here's one: Borgin from the shop in Knockturn Alley. He believes in the value of purebloods and whatnot...he's on knockturn alley, which will definately show its face again....nothing real conclusive, but it's something else to file in our heads.

Nymphadora, I really like your observations about Nicholas. It seems that many of the ghosts at Hogwarts have potential connections to the title... From Nick, who considers himself to be nobility and esteems his own blood, to the Bloody Baron, who is also royalty (and Grindelwald, I tell you!), to the Grey Lady, who many fans consider to be Lady Jane Grey, a British Royal. I really think this is getting onto something!

EDIT: Wandless Wizard, your ideas have reminded me of something. Unicorn Blood Now, I think that half-blood is almost certainly referring to purity of wizard-blood, but it is interesting to think that Voldemort's unicorn blood has never been addressed again. And, the Bloody Baron may have unicorn blood on himself, too!

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 1, 2004 6:49 pm (#340 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Ok, I looked a little further into the Vampire angle with regards to CoS. Among the many, many books Lockhart was Voyages with Vampires. Further, that is the book Hermione is reading when Ron gets the howler. It is mentioned by name twice as she opens it and closes it. I skimmed the book looking for Lockhart parts to see if he ever talked about Vampires, but didn't see any other references. These could have been lifted though.

The trouble, as Prefect MArcus pointed out, is how a Vampire fits in CoS. I figured that maybe instead of Hagrid keeping Aragog, he befriended a Vampire and kept him hidden in the castle. Vampires have some power to petrify in some myths. Their glare has some power. So it either could have been Hagrid's friend instead of Aragog, and knowing its power, people thought it the guilty one. Or it could have been what was actually in the chamber instead of the Basalisk. The former could have been added instead because it is easier to hide a spider than a Vampire and Hagrid is better with animal-like beasts. The latter could have been added instead because the heir of Slytherin needed a way to control it and Parcelmouth is too good to pass up. A Vampire doesn't work nearly as well as what ended up in the book, so I doubt it. Then again, maybe that is why JKR removed it.

Hem hem- I had considered unicorn blood and Voldemort, but quickly dismissed it as it is not Voldemort. I didn't consider other people, ghosts, having unicorn blood and thus a half-life.

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fizzingwhizbees - Jul 1, 2004 9:12 pm (#341 of 2923)

Well, seeing as I can't go back to edit, I had mentioned that Justin Fince-Fletchey was a possibility of being the HBP, but after some careful reading of CoS, I remembered he was a muggleborn.

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 1, 2004 9:40 pm (#342 of 2923)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
In reading the previous posts like a blur, forgive me if I am repeating someone. Could Halfblood Prince refer to a prophesy of someone that will play a pivitol role in the ending of the series. If the posters who stated that JKR noted that someone would gain magical powers later on in life was accurate, perhaps their is a prophesy which will lead to this half-blood prince being discovered. Failing that, it is likely to be amongst Hagrid, Tom Riddle, or someone from Harry's past, possibly in his parents time.

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Anna Osipova - Jul 1, 2004 10:20 pm (#343 of 2923)

I was actually thinking that it might be Dean Thomas. On JKR.com, there's this little bit about how she edited a lot of information on him from the second book, but he IS a half-blood, and his father was killed by Death Eaters (if I'm not mistaken, I think it was Voldemort himself). Well, that's just my opinion.

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Rich - Jul 1, 2004 10:41 pm (#344 of 2923)

Families are about love overcoming emotional torture. -Matt Groening
Edited by Jul 1, 2004 10:56 pm
JKR has said on the site that HBP was a possibility to be used as the title for CoS. She also said that some of the information in the first draft of CoS had to be taken out in order to not give to much away. Do you think that the information that was taken out was the information regarding the HBP?

If some minute bits of informationor or comments/quotes weren't taken out, then there must be things in Book 2 that would make Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince a feasible title instead of CoS, right? Plus, JKR has said, however indirectly, that there are clues in CoS about what's coming in HBP. I think I'm going to have to read CoS again know that I know to be on the look out for a possible HBP.

And I really like Hogs Head's suggestion that JKR has answered the FAQ poll by telling us about the HBP. Is there more to little Mark than meets the eye? Of course we haven't seen him yet so I can't say more than meets the eye but...meh.

EDIT: Just remembered. Do you think that the opening chapter of HBP will involve the birth of the HBP, a snippet of his life or something similar? Or will it be Lily and James' murder? It was an opening chapter that could have been used in previous books according to JKR.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 1, 2004 10:55 pm (#345 of 2923)

Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Here is my list of potential HBP:

1. Tom Riddle

2. Salazar Slytherin

3. James Potter (although there is nothing in COS that I can tie James to the title)

4. Lucius Malfoy

I nicknamed COS as "Harry and Ron's Excellent Adventures". When I read the second book I really enjoy it, but it seems to be out of step with the rest of the series. When JKR said it was going to be very important, I figured it was the discrimination, mudblood/ pureblood factor that was the important clue.

But since she says that neither Harry nor Lord Voldemort are the HBP, I wonder if she is going to take us into a completely new twist.

Edit: Ozymandias I did consider that marriage to Narcissa, but remember Voldemort espouses this doctrine despite being a halfblood himself.

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Ozymandias - Jul 1, 2004 11:05 pm (#346 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
Mrs. Sirius, I would imagine that Lucius would be excluded from being the HBP because if he wasn't a pureblood, Narcissa would have been blasted off the Black family tapestry for marrying him.

I like the idea of James. There's not any evidince, but it definitely feels possible. And hasn't JKR said somewhere that we'll learn more about Harry's parents in this book?

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 1, 2004 11:39 pm (#347 of 2923)

I like the possibility of it being Nearly Headless Nick. Good job^_^!

I should go back and re-read CoS for clues this weekend too.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 2, 2004 12:47 am (#348 of 2923)

Anna Osipova - I'm with you with Dean Thomas as a major possibility. Re-reading Chamber of Secrets I notice that he was brought up by Muggles (pg 187 in the UK papareback edition). Yet in Order of the Pheonix we discover that his mother takes the Daily Prophet (or is it Dean who gets it because we know Hermione does). We also know that his father was a wizard who was killed by Voldemort for not joining the Death Eaters. It could be that J K Rowling sacrificed Dean's story in Chamber of Secrets to allow room for Neville's with the intention of bringing it back later.

I also think Hagrid is another possibility. Talking to a number of people they have ruled him out because he is half giant. But lots of people are possibilities. In CoS Rom says that most wizards are half blood (page 89).

But was Penelope a muggle born? We know from Tom Tiddle's words that by the time he attacked Hermione he was after Harry. So Hermione was the target, and Penelope just happened to be there. And with Percy's attitude to his father's muggle loving ways, would he go out with a muggle born? But I do like the possibility of Nearly Headless Nick. I had never thought of that.

But could Dudley be the Half Blood Prince? Do we really know that Lily Potter's parents were Muggles and not Squibs?

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 2, 2004 12:49 am (#349 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 2, 2004 12:51 am
You know, now that I think of it, no one's mentioned Krum, have they? I suspect we will be seeing him again whether or not he is the HBP, but seeing as we don't know that much about him personally...

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 2, 2004 12:51 am (#350 of 2923)

I thought Durmstrang, especially with an ex-Death Eater in charge, had a policy of not taking anyone but Pure Bloods?

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Weeny Owl - Jul 2, 2004 1:30 am (#351 of 2923)
The Half-Blood Prince could be a new character, a book (perhaps about Wizard families), a known character, or something else no one has even thought of yet.

I'm not totally entrenched in the Tom Riddle theory, but it does make sense in many ways.

Tom Riddle ended up calling himself Lord Voldemort (not Prince Voldemort, but close), and he is a half-blood.

As has been mentioned before, he did say as diary Tom that he was already becoming known to his friends as Lord Voldemort, but he certainly hadn't been called that when he was a baby. Somewhere along the way he found his evil side and chose to become Lord Voldemort, but that wouldn't have happened too soon after his birth, so regardless of what sixteen-year-old Tom says in CoS, at one time he was Tom Riddle and nothing but Tom Riddle. Since he is the Heir of Slytherin and Salazar Slytherin is his ancestor, he had to discover somehow that he was related to Salazar Slytherin, and even he admitted he was a half-blood.

The other thing which has already been pointed out is that JKR has said we'll be learning more about the circumstances surrounding Voldie's birth. He wasn't born I AM LORD VOLDEMORT, however; he was born Tom Marvolo Riddle.

Perhaps JKR can be taken literally about the title not being related to Harry or Voldie, and that could include Tom Riddle, but she could also be just as sneaky as Dobby.

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Madam Pince - Jul 2, 2004 2:55 am (#352 of 2923)

The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I don't think the HBP necessarily has to be a character who was introduced to us in CoS. I just think that there are some important things in CoS that will play out later. Here's my bets for this horse race:

To win: Mark Evans

To place: Remus Lupin

To show: Ken from "Jeopardy"

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veraco - Jul 2, 2004 3:11 am (#353 of 2923)

I really don't think it's a new character. To me it has to be someone we already know, specially since this title was supossed to be the one for Chambers. I think it's one of the four founders (Gryffindor or Slytherin more likely) or Dumbledore. If not I place my bet in the Evans boy. He is not in Chambers but he could easy have been, maybe instead of Colin and then he got replaced by him? Anyway there is a lot of these characters that it feel was left behind in the books, it was almost like if JKR was trying to tell us more and decide not to do it in that moment, specially with the four founders and Dumbledore. The Evans boy just kip popping out of my head.

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The Niffler - Jul 2, 2004 3:49 am (#354 of 2923)

See post 207 for my theories on Nearly Headless Nick and Arthur Weasley.

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Hogs Head - Jul 2, 2004 5:41 am (#355 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Having re-read all the posts about the Half-Blood Prince, I have come to one firm conclusion -- we don't know, and it will be fun to read HP6 to find out.

Having said that, two posts stand out as being astute and from Cos: (a) Percy (but he was pureblood?) was referred to in CoS as the Humongous Bighead Prefect ("HBP")!; and, (b) Doby's sleight of hand switcharoo reference to "Tom not Voldemort" ("it was a clue") occurred -- in Cos !!!

Perhaps the Percy bighead HBP thing might be a red herring we didn't even recognize as such.

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Star Crossed - Jul 2, 2004 5:59 am (#356 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I don't think prefect was in the title, and I don't think he was called that in PoA. Because it was in PoA that he got his Head Boy badge, and at the Leaky Cauldron, while they were staying, Fred and George 'fixed' it.

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Hogs Head - Jul 2, 2004 6:12 am (#357 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Star -- that may be correct. I'll have to re-read that and perhaps eat crow (a Texas saying for "retract").

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 2, 2004 6:15 am (#358 of 2923)

Yeah, I think "Humongus Bighead" was from POA. Gred and Forge said that about Percy being "HB"-- Head Boy.

Now, this Dobby thing distinguishing Tom from Voldemort is making me re-think my position on the matter.

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Hogs Head - Jul 2, 2004 6:20 am (#359 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Yes, I have to "eat crow" on the bighead boy comment being from CoS, except the indirect "HBP" reference by Frorge and Gerg against Percy remains more than an idle curiosity. It may, however, be a red herring. Percy himself may be a red herring. (?)

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 2, 2004 6:29 am (#360 of 2923)

Made a mistake in an earlier post. It's Seamus not Dean who's mother reads the Prophet. Dean thinks his parent's are Muggles. But as JKR says that Dean's father was murdered by Voldemort, and as Dean is of African extract could he be a tribal prince?

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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 2, 2004 6:37 am (#361 of 2923)

Sometimes known as Kim.

To win: Mark Evans

To place: Remus Lupin

To show: Ken from "Jeopardy"

Madam Pince--too funny.

How I'd love for it to be Lupin, he certainly seems inherently noble. But I'm still banking on the Evans kid. And, I'm thinking he's getting sorted into Slytherin.

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Fawkes Forever - Jul 2, 2004 6:43 am (#362 of 2923)

Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
My head is spinning from reading all the theories... so I've put off posting some more of my mad ramblings... that is until now *cue evil laughter*

Whilst reading CoS, something there was something that always bothered me during the Polyjuice episode, was the password for the Slytherin common room, which was "Pureblood". I started thinking, what would any half bloods in Slytherin think of this blatenly prejudiced attitude? Would they be upset, ashamed, annoyed, embarrassed at being made to feel inferior? I say half bloods because I don't see any muggle borns being selected for Slytherin. But you never know

Indeed would the half bloods try to deny their heritage... or just avoid any queries into their lineage. However I think the purebloods pretty much know one another in the Wizarding world, so it might be impossible to conseal this. If Malfoys attitude is typical of the pureblood Slytherin.... then I can see any half blood Slytherin getting a hard time of it.

Ok, you could argue that all Slytherins are pureblood, but we know in the past that the sorting hat selected at least one half blood for Slytherin house, Tom Riddle & it considered placing Harry, another half blood, into Slytherin house as well. Who's to say this hasn't happened since, perhaps it could occur on a more regular basis? After all purebloods are in the minority of the Wizarding World... Hagrid says as much in CoS, when comforting Hermione over Dracos mudblood remark. (sorry no books here so no quotes )

Then my mind went into overdrive. What if the HBP is a half blood who was sorted into Slytherin house.... either a new first year, or someone who is already in Slytherin. We could speculate if it was a new boy it could be Mark Evans.... which is possible. Whether or not this Slytherin boy is actual royalty is something I'm not sure about yet. It might just be a derisive title given to him by his peers in the Slytherin house. Seeing as they are fond of using regal terms in this way... think "Weasley is our King". Besides if he was a real prince I don't see his actual title being HBP ... he'd just be 'Prince Blah of Blahsville'. (you know what I mean )

So this theory goes is that he's a half blood (funny that ), & he's been selected for Slytherin House, for whatever personal reason, example fact he could cunning or ambitious ... both traits of Slytherin that don't necessarily mean that he's a typical rude nasty Slytherin. So I propose that perhaps this character could turn out to be the illusive 'good slytherin'... well there are bound to be a few... I hope. Could he be the one to help unite the houses..... will he befriend the trio?

Sorry, I'm probably not making much sense, my brain is going faster than my typing. So tear away... pick holes.... feel free to deconstruct my madness....

It's just another thought.... but who knows... I've still got a few more theories rattling around my head... but I think I'll let them form stronger arguements before I unleash them

Argh... when will we get book 6.....

EDIT : Sorry for the long post... Hee hee Kim we posted at the same time

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 2, 2004 6:48 am (#363 of 2923)

I'm warming to the Dean Thomas theory. The son of a powerful African wizard, who was also the tribal chief, who was murdered by Voldemort. Nice touch and twist.

But I do like the Nearly Headless Nick theory and also the idea of Hagrid. So many people I have spoken to have ruled them out because they are a ghost/giant. I also like the idea that Malfoy is not pure blood - but I think this would be too obvious.

And a final throw away thought. Could the Half Blood Prince be the new minister of magic?

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Fawkes Forever - Jul 2, 2004 7:01 am (#364 of 2923)

Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Phelim, 'Could the Half Blood Prince be the new minister of magic'?

Hmmm, this was one of my throw away theories to begin with too (can't remember which post), I was saying that perhaps after Fudge goes, they can't get a replacement, so by default the role of 'head of state' goes to a member of the Royal Family... as in the country is without a ruler. This other madcap theory of mine, relies on the need for a royal family in the wizarding world... which we don't know if they exist or not.

However the madness ensues.... the other follow up thought to this one was concerning the country without a leader vibe. Now I may be wrong... but isn't there something in Aurthurian legend about when at a time of great peril, when Britain no longer has a leader Arthur & the knights of the round table will return to lead the country. I could be inventing this.... but I'm sure I read it somewhere (how very Hermione of me )! We know JK likes to borrow from legends... she might adapt this to be a HBP instead. We know that she has already included Merlin in the magical world of HP, so why not this legend? Ok so Arthur was a king... & not a prince... & I can't remember if he had any sons? If he did, that could mean that either he or Lady Gweniverre (spelling?) were magical. Perhaps if the HBP is their son.... he could be a legend that Harry reads of.... or he could return at a time of great peril, when the country has no leader?

Told you all I had too many mad ideas dancing around my head.... think I'll go & keep quiet for a bit...

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Chemyst - Jul 2, 2004 7:47 am (#365 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Arthur & the knights... ~ from Fawkes post

Here is a bit of what I posted on the chat thread: ...The death eaters were originally known as the Knights of Walpurgis... Walpurgis Night, (intentional pun on JKRs part) is April 30, opposite the calendar from Halloween. The Lexicon has a footnote on the Death Eater page that says it was named after St. Walburga, protector against witchcraft, whose feast is the next day, May 1. Since May 1st is a Sunday in 2005, I'm going to predict they'll aim for Saturday, April 30, (as the release date for HbP.) Arthur Weasley & the death-eating knights is a very odd mental picture!

The Hogwarts motto, "Never tickle a sleeping dragon," has never been fully integrated into the storyline. I'm wondering if the half blood prince could be either a tickler or the one tickled. A parallel expression in the muggle world is "Don't wake a sleeping giant," (that would be Gwarp, ...or in Sirius's case, "Let sleeping dogs lie.") Could DD be a sleeping dragon? (McGonagall said he has powers he'd never use.) The Atrium Fountain Battle at the end of OP did seem to rouse him. Are there any dots to connect here?

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Love Those Mandrakes - Jul 2, 2004 8:38 am (#366 of 2923)

Chemyst ~ I really like your idea of when to expect the next book. Good job!

My thoughts when I heard HBP was what makes you a "prince"? Then I thought what is really "half blood"? I mean maybe those words aren't from the "Potter" world and they mean what we 3D people would mean them as or then maybe its from the original word. So I got myself into a dizzy confusing conversation and this is what I found at webster.com

First we have "Prince" Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin princip-, princeps leader, initiator, from primus first + capere to take -- more at HEAVE 1 a : MONARCH, KING b : the ruler of a principality or state 2 : a male member of a royal family; especially : a son of the sovereign 3 : a nobleman of varying rank and status 4 : one likened to a prince; especially : a man of high rank or of high standing in his class or profession

Then we have "half blood" (from dictionary.com) half blood

\Half" blood`\ 1. The relation between persons born of the same father or of the same mother, but not of both; as, a brother or sister of the half blood. See Blood, n., 2 and 4.

2. A person so related to another.

3. A person whose father and mother are of different races; a half-breed

I said all this to say, I didn't think Hagrid could be the HBP but after seeing the definition for prince (a man of high rank or of high standing in his class or profession: Keeper of the Keys) and half blood (a half breed)...I think I agree with that theory.

Of course, I say that and then wonder about Colin Creevey, Mark Evans, James Potter...so I think I'm still confused as I was before I wrote it down.

Thanks for reading my nonsense

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Chris. - Jul 2, 2004 8:47 am (#367 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Okay, Flitwick may be a Halfblood so here's my theory. I think Snape's riddle means a lot.

"Got it," she said. "The smallest bottle will get us through the black fire- towards the Stone," (PS/SS, Ch16, P207, UK edition)

So, if we say the smallest thing/person will help Harry forwards (through HbP, I've got used to not saying Book 6 anymore ), we could be talking about two people, maybe more but these are the ones that first came to mind. They are Dobby and Flitwick.
There is no evidence but the above to suggest that he is the HbP though.

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FCBarca - Jul 2, 2004 9:38 am (#368 of 2923)

I think another thing to look at is not who the Prince is, but what his role will be in the book. The thing that makes me believe it isn't a student is because I can't see a significant role a student could play. I believe it must be someone who is going to fight against Voldemort, so I hope it's an adult (and a new character.)

Like I said before, 'Prince' may not mean royalty, in this case. Maybe it just means a noble person, or a good person. But I think the important clue lies in the 'half-blood'. It strikes me that him being half-blood is highly important. Although 'The Wizard Prince' doesn't have a 'ring' to it, if the 'half-blood' had no real importance, it would have been a more accurate title, or person.

What if the Half-blood Prince was (is) someone who helps half-bloods? I don't really mean like Superman or Batman, but the opposite to Voldemort, where Voldemort wants to kill them, but the HBP wants to save them (or help save them would be more accurate.) Far-fetched, I know, but it does make a little sense: CoS was going to be called HBP, right? Well, CoS was about Half-bloods getting attacked, so what if JKR wanted to add the HBP to 'save the day', so to speak, but thought "hang on, someone like that would be better to add when Voldemort's back, because Voldemort would want to kill all half-bloods, and someone like the HBP would fit better".

I know it sounds too 'super hero', but I don't mean he takes on Voldemort single handed, while standing on his head type thing, but more like he helps Dumbledore and the Order to fight Voldemort.

The thing about HBP is that it is like two ends of a spectrum: on one side you have one of my theories (a theory which just entered my head, which means I'm not saying it's true, or even close), or you have it that he is a student, who doesn't fight Voldemort directly. So it's very difficult to predict who or what the HBP is, as there are so many possibilities.

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koala marpusial - Jul 2, 2004 9:55 am (#369 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
actually mordred was the bastard (illegitimate) son of arthur who ended up slaying him.. but if you are saying that some guy completely out of left field is going to become both the minister of magic AND the HBP you're pulling feathers out of a peacock's fan!

edit: and I do think there could be a relation of voldemort out there who is halfblood as well (aka a brother)

So my choices are as follows: 1. Riddle (could be Tom or a relation)

2. Percy (if Arthur Weasley really is our King -- King Arthur... then perhaps Percy is our prince)

3. Ron (Molly's boggart in OOtP takes the form of Ron and Hermione wearing crowns -- and it is very possible R/H will be joined)

4. Dean Thomas --

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Anna L. Black - Jul 2, 2004 10:25 am (#370 of 2923)

I'm tending to support the Gryffindor theory. I keep thinking about the fact that he and Salazar were friends (or so says the Sorting Hat). OK, here's another mad theory:

Maybe in the Founders' days, there was some sort of Wizarding Royalty. And maybe Gryffindor belonged to it, and therefore was a Prince. Then he left the "throne", because he wanted to dedicate himself to teaching (OK, scratch that, too far-fetched). anyway, Slytherin always thought that Gryffindor was a Pureblood (and as a result, had no problems developing a friendship with him). But then, as they started arguing over the issue of accepting Muggle-borns, Gryffindor said he was actually a Half-blood. But Salazar couldn't suddenly discard their friendship. So he left the school, and didn't release the basilisk in his own days - he didn't want to have to kill Gryffindor, but did want to eliminate the 'Mudbloods'.

I've definitely gone too far, but Gryffindor could still be the HBP

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koala marpusial - Jul 2, 2004 10:27 am (#371 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
oooh that would be my number 4 pick instead of Dean

4. relative of godric

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Alianora - Jul 2, 2004 10:28 am (#372 of 2923)

I'm one of the doubters of the "Tom Riddle and Voldemort are seperate entities" theory. I think JKR was very clear in her statement. Dobby's hint only worked because he said "he-who-must-not-be-named." They ARE considered the same person, it's just that Riddle's name can be spoken. If Riddle was the half-blood prince, so would Voldemort have been. Now if Rowling had said "you know who" maybe I would buy it, but the theory just doesn't hold water. Besides, the HBP being Riddle is too obvious, in my opinion, which is why Rowling was willing to tell us it was neither him nor Harry. If you don't believe what Rowling herself says, what are we going to use as cannon?

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Nimbus Amongus - Jul 2, 2004 11:04 am (#373 of 2923)

Well said, Alianora. It's easy to be like Ron and just throw out ideas in the hopes that we will be told we have the making of an Auror.

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Madam Poppy - Jul 2, 2004 11:37 am (#374 of 2923)

Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Jul 2, 2004 11:39 am
FCBarca, I'm still hanging in the Prince=Tom Riddle camp for now...BUT I like your comments on the HbP's role in the book. As I tried to get across in an earlier post, you can't just guess at the person's name. You have to justify their actual role in Book 6.

Who is going to stand beside Harry Potter to fight Voldemort and his Deatheaters?

1. a child? Y/N
2. an adult? Y/N
3. student or untrained wizard? Y/N
4. an accomplished wizard? Y/N
5. someone in a position of authority? Y/N
6. someone never mentioned in CoS? Y/N
7. someone mentioned only once? Y/N

Though after saying all that...look how well the student D.A.'s did against the adult Deatheaters.

P.S. My votes would be: 1.N 2.Y 3.N 4.Y 5.Y 6.N 7.N

Poppy

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 2, 2004 11:43 am (#375 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
I doubt if Hagrid is the title character because giants don't appear to have royalty. I doubt if it is any other of the characters in CoS because we've had three books since then, and no mention has been made of anyone being princes. Surely by now we would have heard something about it? So I am thinking it will be someone we haven't met yet.

Perhaps, they were the original CoS DADA teacher and Rowling decided it worked better for the story to have them appear in HBP. So Rowling inserted Lockhart instead. Let's face it, Lockhart really doesn't have a great deal to do in CoS. He did teach us not to underestimate pixies. Beyond that, what did he actually accomplish?

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 2, 2004 12:44 pm (#376 of 2923)

I Am Almighty!
Lockhart's character was actually essential in CoS. If he was not both a fraud and willing to erase the memories of students, Harry would not have to have entered the Chamber alone. I'd guess Lockhart was planned all along for CoS.

My vote for HBP still goes to Draco.

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Love Those Mandrakes - Jul 2, 2004 12:50 pm (#377 of 2923)

Nimrod, What is your explanation for Draco not being Half Blood?

Because of the "half blood" I ruled out all Slytherins.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 2, 2004 12:50 pm (#378 of 2923)

Koala Marsupial

3. Ron (Molly's boggart in OOtP takes the form of Ron and Hermione wearing crowns -- and it is very possible R/H will be joined)

This is an in interesting observation. Throughout history individuals who were martyred, were often said to have received the crown of martyrdom. Perhaps, the crowns worn by Ron and Hermione is not only symbolic of them being joined but, also of the sacrifices they will have to make in order to defeat Voldemort.

Best Regards,

Nathan

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TGF - Jul 2, 2004 1:01 pm (#379 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
That's a bloody lot of posts I just browsed through...

Okay, I would like to repeat that I really don't think that the Half Blood Prince will be anyone known to the fans.

Firstly, let me say to the 'it's Tom Riddle' camp... well, if it is Tom Riddle, then you're saying JKR put forth more intentionally misleading statements just after saying that she wouldn't try to mislead us. Also, when exactly would Tom Riddle have been the Half-Blood Prince? He was already starting up as Lord Voldemort in his fifth year... so for the previous four do you think he was called the Prince or what? Also, JKR said that it was a story that was best not told in book 4, but rather put in book 6. If the HBP is Tom Riddle, then why wouldn't it have fit in GoF during Riddle's story? I don't think Riddle himself is going to be appearing (unless there's another diary) so it seems to me that the best place to put that kind of story about Riddle is in the one part where Riddle himself exists in the story.

Secondly, Diagon Nilly pointed out that Sirius Black was mentioned before the Prisoner of Azkaban, so a title referring to an event previously in the text isn't unprecedented... well, that mention was in passing. He was still a completely unknown character at that point... The only thing known about him was that he owned a motorcycle. So, if we can assume that JKR has a set system of titles in mind and doesn't simply pick whatever comes to mind (seems to me that she's had them down since day 1), the HBP can't be a character who has been developed yet.

I say again, I think this is going to be someone new. Whether that turns out to be a brand new character, or an existing character that has as yet carried little significance, remains to be seen.

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Madam Poppy - Jul 2, 2004 1:05 pm (#380 of 2923)

Kirsten Valleskey
P.S. Aren't you glad that JKR finally gave us something good to debate over?

Poppy

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Peregrine - Jul 2, 2004 1:53 pm (#381 of 2923)

The thing that makes me believe it isn't a student is because I can't see a significant role a student could play.

Unless it's the student who unites the houses.

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Dumbledore - Jul 2, 2004 1:55 pm (#382 of 2923)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
Madam Poppy: Aren't you ghlad that JKR finally gave us something good to debate over?

Haha, when have we here on the forum ever ceased to find something to debate over? ;-)

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Hem Hem - Jul 2, 2004 2:05 pm (#383 of 2923)

New brainwave: We know that Tom Riddle's mother was a witch, and that she was a direct descendant of Salazar Slytherin. However, we do not if she was a pureblood. "They say she only lived long enough to name me: Tom after my father, and Marvolo after my grandfather." We don't know anything about Tom's supposedly-wizard grandfather, Marvolo. He probably was a descendent of Salazar Slytherin, and it's at least possible that he was a half-blood. And if we'll learn more about the circumstances of little Tommy's birth in this book, we have a chance to learn a bit about his namesake...not to mention that this guy might have been a close contemporary of Dumbledore's.

Shoot away!

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 2, 2004 2:16 pm (#384 of 2923)

I Am Almighty!
Love Those Mandrakes, here is my reasoning.

HBP was once a possible title for CoS, but JKR move some important information from book 2 to book 6, which is being called HBP. So I think it is fairly safe to assume several things about the important information:

1. It is related to the identity of the HBP.

2. It is important enough to be the title of a Harry Potter book.

3. It must be something that would fit into the plot of CoS, but also something that could be removed without completely changing the story.

I also assume the HBP is someone who was in CoS. If he was important enough to the story to have the book named after him, I would doubt that he could be removed without radically changing the plot. Think fo PoA without Sirius, for instance.

JKR has eliminated Harry and Voldemort, so just tried to think of a senerio that fit in with my (many) assumptions. The only thing that I can think of that makes sense is that at the end of book 2 JKR was originally going to have it come out that the Malfoys are not pure-bloods, but ended up realizing that she needed to hold off to book 6.

Had Lucius been exposed as a half-blood, Half-Blood Prince would be a perfect nickname for Draco, and I don't think it would have taken long for some student to call him that.

If this is true, I can also see why it ended up making sense to move it to book 6. JKR needed Lucius to still have his status as a prominent pure-blood wizard in OotP.

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Dumbledore - Jul 2, 2004 2:20 pm (#385 of 2923)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
The only person that I could think of that would fit into your criteria, nimrod, is Dobby. JKR put alot of information in CoS about Dobby, and it is very possible that she might have planned to reveal even more about him. However, considering the plotline, it wasn't really going to fit to put any extra information about Dobby in, so she decided to wait until book 6 to come into play. I really don't think that Dobby is the HBP, but it would make sense that the information about Dobby could be in book 2, but was taken out.

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Green Eyes - Jul 2, 2004 2:55 pm (#386 of 2923)

But the legend of the founders was also a big part of the story in COS...also, did any of you notice the description of Godric Gryffindor's sword...with rubies the size of eggs on it? Maybe this hints at wealth/noblility?

I think if JKR is not pulling a Dobby and it isn't Tom Riddle...then I feel it almost has to be something from the past...because the chamber legend was something from the past...even the memory of Tom Riddle was from the past.

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vball man - Jul 2, 2004 3:28 pm (#387 of 2923)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
The odd thing is that "Prince" suggests some line to a throne. I've never heard of anyone referred to a a "King" in the series - except Ron in OoP.

Could it be Dumbledore? Possibly he abdicated in order to devote himself to teaching? That might explain why DD likes half-bloods - he is one.

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Pinky - Jul 2, 2004 3:48 pm (#388 of 2923)

La la narf!
I just read 350 posts on this thread, and no one has mentioned my first guess as to the identity of the Half-Blood Prince. I think it may be Firenze. Hagrid has been suggested as a possibility with the half-giant/half-wizard makeup causing him to be a half-blood. Centaurs are similar. They are half horse/half human (wizard?). Firenze occupied a fairly significant part in PS/SS, rescuing Harry from Quirrel/Voldiehead and telling him a little about the stars. It seemed likely that we would see more of Firenze in the next book, but he disappeared. At the end of OoP, JKR reintroduced him into the story, possibly setting him up for a storyline in book 6 that she may have intended for book 2. Firenze seems very knowledgeable and could help Harry out a lot. Perhaps Firenze would have given away too much for book 2, and that's why she bumped him back to book 6.

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FizzingWizzby - Jul 2, 2004 4:26 pm (#389 of 2923)

I think the Half Blood Prince is Godric Gryffindor because we all now by now that JKR was planing to use this title for book two, instead of Chamber of Secrets. She also said that she decided to take out information that she was planing to put in book two, but, in the end, thought that this information would be better to in book six. Since we learn alot about S. Slytherin in book two maybe she intended to put more information about Godric Gryffindor's past as well. I think in book six we will learn alot about the history of the Hogwarts founders as to the type of people they were. I don't think that Hagrid could be the HBP because the doubt that the Giants have royalty or could be that organized to have royal kingdom. I don't think that it could be students like the Creevey brothers or Dean Thomas because they aren't main characters that have established personalities, like Neville or Luna, and what do they have to do with the overall plot, it makes no sense. The only other possibility is an entire new character, maybe the new DADA teacher or the new Minister of Magic. it has to be someone linked to Harry or Lily and James, because why else would Voldermort still be after Harry?

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 2, 2004 5:33 pm (#390 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 2, 2004 5:33 pm
Here is my second way out there theory Again, we are being very single minded on the term half-blood and very open-minded on the term prince. I decided to reverse that thought and take prince very, very literally, while being more expansive on half-blood.

Ok, let's assume that before the MoM, wizard kind was ruled by a monarchy. When the MoM was formed, the monarchy was reduced to a figurehead and over the years, completely abandoned. Let's assume further that the person who would have been King was Sirius Black (last from the most ancient and noble house of black). Sirius however left no blood heir. So his cousin, Narcissa Malfoy (formerly Narcissa Black) is the next in line. So Lucius Malfoy asserts his right to the throne through marriage. As the MoM and Fudge is weakened by their overlooking Voldemort, L. Malfoy makes a play for power based on royal lineage. This would make D. Malfoy the half-blood prince. Half his blood is noble wizard and half his blood is common wizard (pure wizarding blood sure, but only half royal).

Now, here is where we get the story. Harry may not be the blood relative of Sirius Black, but before Black died he cast a Testementus charm (I completely made this up, like a will for wizards). Since many in the order die, Black magically made HP his heir to avoid the Malfoy's getting 12GMP and the Order's headquarters. Consequently in a move to restore power to the ministry, Harry asserts his rights to the throne and supports Fudge or Dumbledore or whoever as Minister. Meanwhile, Malfoy could be a complete pain in the backside claiming to be a prince (and HRH could finally call him a half-blood). Therefore Malfoy is the HBP.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 2, 2004 5:46 pm (#391 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Fawkes Forever wrote in post 362:

Ok, you could argue that all Slytherins are pureblood, but we know in the past that the sorting hat selected at least one half blood for Slytherin house, Tom Riddle & it considered placing Harry, another half blood, into Slytherin house as well. Who's to say this hasn't happened since, perhaps it could occur on a more regular basis?

It is possible that there could be half-bloods in SLythering, but I don't think Harry and Riddle are good examples. Even if the sorting Hat never put half-boods in, it might consider these two as the exceptions. Riddle after all was a direct decendant of Slytherin. I think you should automatically get in your ancestors house. Secondly Harry got a lot of Riddl'es powers and therefore Slytherin's from the curse. Since the hat sensed Slytherin in them, it wanted to put them there.

Phelim Mcintyre wrote in post #363:
I'm warming to the Dean Thomas theory. The son of a powerful African wizard, who was also the tribal chief, who was murdered by Voldemort. Nice touch and twist.

I also keep coming back to the Dean Thomas theory. JKR made sure to tell Columbus when casting the first movie that Dean was black. Why is this important? It could support your African prince theory. Maybe she knew then that DT would eventually play a big role and his heritage would also play a role, so she wanted it right from the begining. On the flip side, JKR stated on her website that the Dean Thomas backstory would probably never be told. How can we find out he is half-blood or prince without this back-story? I don't know. I keep coming back to the fact he is Ginny's boyfriend at the end of OotP and therefore could possibly be more important in the next book.

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Green Eyes - Jul 2, 2004 6:45 pm (#392 of 2923)

One thing that just occurred to me reading over these last few posts...actually, Wandless Wizard, your bit about Ginny and Dean Thomas made me think of it. I'll start by saying I don't think Dean is the HBP. I think it has to do with the story of Godric Gryffindor the more I think of it.

Why is it important that Ginny is the only girl in several generations? Why is it that all the Weasley's are in Gryffindor? Could it be that the Weasley's are descendants of Godric Gryffindor? We think of them as poor and not at all regal, but this would be sooo JKR! So let me think while I write...if the HBP is related to the story of Godric Gryffindor, either by being him or a descendant (perhaps his son) and the Weasley's are his lineage...how does Harry fit into this?

By CHOOSING NOT TO BE A SLYTHERIN at his sorting he goes into Gryffindor. But because he carries some of Voldemort/Tom Riddle around with him, he is then set up to be the person who will repair the breach between Slytherin and Gryffindor. He carries both Slytherin and Gryffindor around inside himself. Perhaps then later, through a marriage this can then be made a legal, formal sealed deal and restoring harmony in the Wizarding World.

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MrsGump - Jul 2, 2004 6:54 pm (#393 of 2923)

I read through most of the posts (I admit, I fell behind by a day and skimmed quite a few), but has there been discussion about the HBP being a champion FOR halfbloods, not necessarily BEING halfblood?

That would open up the possibilities even more, including, as someone said, Arthur (which I really like, just because the whole King Arthur/ Weasley is Our King) or DD with him still being a pureblood.

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Day - Jul 2, 2004 6:58 pm (#394 of 2923)

I am on the Dean Thomas boat, as well. However, it is fun to ponder other possibilities. I applaude Thw Wandless Wizard for his abstract theory! Perhaps you are on a good track. Maybe if you back up on step off the extreme you could speculate that the Half Blood Prince is a Prince (some kind of leader) of the half bloods but not necesarily one himself. Thoughts?

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 2, 2004 7:21 pm (#395 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 2, 2004 7:36 pm
Well, I have mentioned this in a previous post (I think I did, who knows). But it would not be grammatically correct for the "Halfblood Prince" not to be Half Blood in some way. It would have to be "HalfBloods' Prince" to have the same meaning as "Prince of the Half-bloods". The apostrophe needs to be there. Another example, "The American King" means there is a king that is American. He could be King of a small island in the pacific, but American is an adjective that describes him. "The Americans' King" means that the guy is king of all Americans. So, I guess it is possible for HBP to be a prince of the half-bloods, but I doubt it because theer is no apostrophe '.

Edit: The post I mentioned this was #306. End Edit

PS. Day, I can't back off on the extreme. My brain has a mind of its own Anyway, it is kind of like Neville's charmwork. I can point it in a certain direction, but after that, who knows where it will go and what it will do.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 2, 2004 8:01 pm (#396 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I've been reading the posts on just what the words "half blood prince" could mean, and they make for some interesting discussion. My most recent thoughts on the subject are these:

It seems to me that the majority of the people who hold power in the wizarding world are purebloods, or at least 'mostly' pure (even if they don't come from a very, very old family line like the Malfoys or Weasleys). They are also seen as the 'artistocratic elite' of the wizarding world, and there is, therefore, a certain social status and power/influence/etc that goes along with that. Perhaps the 'Half Blood Prince' is someone who holds the same ranking as a pureblood, the same social status/power/etc, but is half-blooded. That would be somewhat unusual in the wizarding world, especially if the person were in a position of great influence currently. The title of Book 6, therefore, wouldn't be referring to an actual title the person holds in the pages of the book, but to how they are percieved by their world, as one of the nobility, despite their blood status....

Who could fit this desciption?

Dumbledore? James Potter? Godric Gryffindor?

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TGF - Jul 2, 2004 8:10 pm (#397 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I really like that idea Jones. You really hit the mark there. It would seem pretty natural for a person of unusual origin holding a position in the government to have some sort of nickname, particularly in Britain. This is the most plausible explanation for the title we've had so far and you deserve serious commendation for thinking of it.

I'm not sure if it's James or Godric however, though if I had to pick between the two I'd say Godric. It's certainly not Dumbledore, as if that were his common nickname, then I think we'd have heard it by now.

Again, great thinking Jones.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 2, 2004 8:21 pm (#398 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Um, I don't think you quite got what I was saying there, TGF. I don't think we will ever hear the words "Half Blood Prince" ever spoken in Book 6 (not as a nickname or anything else). I think the title represents how he is seen by the wizarding world, not something they call him. Sirius was the Prisoner of Azkaban, but never actually called that in the book. See what I mean?

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TGF - Jul 2, 2004 8:28 pm (#399 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Oh... well, I certainly think it's possible for it to be the nickname of a political figure. What's a nice real-world example... Ich, what did they use to call Lord Lansdowne... or Disraeli? Somehow I didn't take down the nicknames of either... argh.

Well, nonetheless, your way works pretty well too.

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DJ Evans - Jul 2, 2004 8:33 pm (#400 of 2923)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Something just dawn on me and if this has been mentioned before, then "please" forgive me. My poor little brain is so overloaded trying to keep all of the many posts straight, that I very well could have missed reading something along on this order/line before.

But one way that "Half Blood Prince" could be taken is maybe that someone is (or was) a child of two houses? By that, I mean what if their parents are both direct descendants of like Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff (as an example)? You then could consider him a half blood of Ravenclaw and a half blood of Hufflepuff, right maybe? And being that he is direct descendant of two houses--maybe call him Prince of the houses? Does "anyone" that we know of, fit that?

I know that this idea is such a S-T-R-E-T-C-H!!! But it sounded good in my head when I started it. Maybe something from all of that will give someone else another idea that could be taken from it that will make sense? Hope so, so I don't look like a "total" idiot there.

Later, Deb

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The Niffler - Jul 2, 2004 8:33 pm (#401 of 2923)
Pinky: Firenze is one of my fav theories too Smile from post 107

Has anyone considered the difference between the words "halfblood" and "half blood"?

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riddikulus - Jul 2, 2004 9:11 pm (#402 of 2923)

Edited by S.E. Jones Jul 2, 2004 10:07 pm
If I may and say that this prince idea has really got me boggled. I've gone through Hagrid, who's half blood and could be a prince... to Krum... to this Mark Evans (the Dark Mark) idea. I think Mark Evans is going out on limb... and Krum wasn't in COS so that leaves me with Hagrid. What do we really know about his Giantess mum? He may be royalty. He does often compare himself to Harry.

Perhaps it's someone who hasn't been introduced yet, but set up to be, in COS. Maybe we'll finally find out how Voldemort got his wand back to him... and was able to use it in his duel in book 4. We all know he personally, wouldnt have been able to take it out of the house... which either leads us to believe it's a horrible mistake or there was someone in the house that took the wand and had it the whole time, until they were able to give it back to voldemort. Yes, I know, the mistake seems more likely. The only person who Voldemort saw before the death eaters showed up, all surprised to see Voldemort, was Wormtail... that we know of. really hope that JK gives us an explanation. Maybe there's a connection.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 3, 2004 12:24 am (#403 of 2923)

Madam Poppy: When you said that it was a probably not going to be child who would be defending the wizarding world, I at first thought of Harry himself of course, but then another thought came to me. You know, in the Narnia books we have "Prince Caspian", who rallies old Narnia back to life---indeed, throughout that whole series, there are kids who go out and take care of the big problems just as often as the adults. So, if the HBP is a sort of "help unlooked for" thing, which is a sort of fantasy archetype (LOTR along with the Narnia series), then I don't doubt that the HBP is a teen like the trio or even a youngin' like Mark Evans.

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Madam Poppy - Jul 3, 2004 12:34 am (#404 of 2923)

Kirsten Valleskey
Thanks Wandless Wizard for the Grammar lesson. There goes that theory out the window. (I did NOT like English class and still have to ask my daughter or husband where to put the apostrophe.)

Interesting thoughts Kevin. Argument well put. (I'm still in the Tom Riddle Camp)

Poppy

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The Chaser - Jul 3, 2004 7:07 am (#405 of 2923)

How about Ragnold as the HBP?

I've thought for a time that book 6 would have a goblin-related storyline (Harry has allies amongst other magical types but not the goblins /Sirius and Mr Weasley discussing Ragnold in OotP/Bagman and the goblins keep getting mentioned). We don't know much about goblins, but perhaps they have a royal family? And perhaps one has married a wizard in the past, giving rise to a half-blood child?

Oh what fun we have...

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Chemyst - Jul 3, 2004 7:24 am (#406 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Chaser, now I have music from Hall of the Mountain King running through my head! Arrgh!

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scorpio 75 - Jul 3, 2004 7:59 am (#407 of 2923)

I'm so sorry, but could someone kindly remind me who Mark Evans is? There were a lot of posts saying Mark Evans might be the HBP....

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Diagon Nilly - Jul 3, 2004 8:01 am (#408 of 2923)

Mark Evans is a neighborhood kid that Dudley and his gang beat up. He was only mentioned once at the beginning of OotP.

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Kwikspell - Jul 3, 2004 9:56 am (#409 of 2923)

Marketers? Bah!
Just adding my two cents to the mix. In a recent re-read of the series, it seems to me that the big battle being waged in these books seems to be less about Voldemort vs. Harry and more about Salazar Slytherin vs. Godric Gryffindor with Harry and Voldemort playing the part of their house founders’ champions.

Now, we know that JKR said she was thinking of using HBP as the title for COS. COS was all about Salazar Slytherin (the Heir of Slytherin, the Chamber he built, the beliefs he had regarding education of pure-blood wizards--we even got to see inside the Slytherin common room). So, it seems relatively plausible that Salazar could be the HBP. Knowing that JKR often likes to give two opposing characters some of the same characteristics, I wonder if Godric could also be half-blood and hence, the HBP referenced in the title of the 6th book. It would also make sense that if the 2nd book was all about Slytherin, then we'd need a book primarily about Gryffindor to balance it out.

Another possibility is that the HBP is a character that's going to take the Sorting Hat's song in OotP to heart and unite the two warring factions. I'm not sure who that would be, but it would have to be someone who is not a lightning rod for either side (so, not Harry or his close friends, or Malfoy). I believe JKR mentioned that a student will switch houses in the 6th book. Pursuant to what some have already suggested on this list, I wonder if it could be a non-prominent Slytherin who chafes under the pure-blood rhetoric and moves to one of the more neutral houses. Don't know who that would be, though. Does anyone remember any other Slytherin students besides Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle (and the members of the Slytherin Quidditch team)?

I still harbor a little hope that it will be Hagrid, though—the half-blood prince of the beasts!

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Grant the Great - Jul 3, 2004 1:58 pm (#410 of 2923)

OK, I haven't finished reading all of the recent posts, but I want to post this before I forget.

When JKR said that there would be a new minister of magic (not new ruler, mind you), I always just thought that meant there would be a new election in the wizarding world. I mean, it would fit quite well, don't you think? It'd be kinda like the beginning of GoF with a big wizarding non-Voldie-related event (Quid. work cup). I don't know about countries with royalty (I'm American), but I would imagine that the royalty would show up at the important political events (ie. campaign rallies and innaugurations). Maybe I'm just confusing it too much with the USA system, but I would think that would be how it works. Also, that particular royal family member could play a role in various ways: being in the Order, being DADA teacher, replacing another teacher (admit it, no other teacher has really been replaced other than DADA teachers, unless you count Trelawney getting a co-teacher or with Hagrid and Grubbly-Plank), or even supporting the new Death Eater Minister of Magic (I personally have a feeling that the new Minister of Magic will not be a good one but will be a Death Eater).

Anyway, I hope someone responds to this.

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Grant the Great - Jul 3, 2004 2:32 pm (#411 of 2923)

Well, I tried to post this as an edit, but it didn't work for some reason.

EDIT: Of course, I have always been (since it was first suggested) of the opinion that the HBP is Godric, or at least someone descended from him (maybe only one generation). If you look at the following, you'll note that the books kind of reflect their counterpart (if you think of the books as a pyramid), and thus . . . well, just look.

4

3 5

2 6

1 7

1: Sorcerer's Stone (evil, if you think of it as a means for Voldemort to gain immortality) 7: some item that will again offer Voldie his greatest dream, leading to the climax

2: Chamber of Secrets (a means for Voldie to get power, reflecting the evil Salazar) 6: Half Blood Prince (the Godric opposite of the power of the Chamber, who would have originally fought against it, but fit better if it did so later for some reason)

3: Prisoner of Azkaban (originally thought of, for most of the book, as a means for a Death Eater to kill Harry) 5: Order of the Phoenix (a group of people that work to stop Voldemort and protect Harry)

4: Goblet of Fire (the "impartial judge" and thus neither good nor evil and working as the center of the pyramid)

If you follow the above logic (if any can understand it), you go from evil to good (ironic, when it is opposite from Voldie weak to Voldie strong). Please, I want to hear people bash/support my theory at least to some degree!!! ::puppy dog eyes::

EDIT: This didn't work when posted. Just imagine the numbers above forming a pyramid. (this shape: /\ ). It kinda works, if you get what I mean.

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Star Crossed - Jul 3, 2004 2:43 pm (#412 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Great research! I especially like the Goblet of Fire, using that it's an impartial judge, like they said in the book.

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Aqua Vite - Jul 3, 2004 2:52 pm (#413 of 2923)

Harry Potter Aficionado
Straying a bit off topic, has anyone noticed that on JKR's website, the door, once again, has a "do not disturb" sign on it? Think it's of any significance?

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TGF - Jul 3, 2004 3:02 pm (#414 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
It's been shut until she has more to tell us Aqua. It's discussed a bit more in the JKR.com thread.

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Makgraf - Jul 3, 2004 3:08 pm (#415 of 2923)

I'm leaning towards the "political nickname" theory and not an actual prince. Most likely one that started off as an insult but then got adopted by them (e.g. "The Iron Lady" for Thatcher was orginally a derogatory soviet coined phrase). I think that it in the book, because the last five titles have all existed (there's an actual Philospher's Stone etc).

I don't think that this character is an actual leader of the half bloods. However I don't think the grammer of the title would disqualify that theory. When we say (have said?) "The English King" we mean the King of England (George I would be called the English King even though he was German). Just as English King is synonomous with England's King and King of England, Half-Blood Prince is synonomous with Prince of the Half-Bloods.

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 3, 2004 3:28 pm (#416 of 2923)

I don't think it will be actual royalty either. I think if it were, the magical royal family would have been mentioned in the books a bit before this, and it would surprise me a bit too much if something like this popped up this far along in the story. Seems like Harry'd have known about the royal family the same as he knows about the Ministry of Magic. They'd have payed him attention too. Also, I've always thought of the magical world as being seperate from the rest of the world, and therefore different, with different governments. To me, it just doesn't seem very JKR to introduce a royal figure like this, this far into the books, unless maybe this person was from some other country..

But with the attitudes of the magical world in general towards half-bloods, I doubt that if this was an actual prince, that he would be half-blood himself. Maybe just a supporter?

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TGF - Jul 3, 2004 3:37 pm (#417 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
It can easily be a Ministry of Magic official with a fair amount of renown. Lloyd George, who was the British Prime Minister at the end of World War I, was nicknamed 'The Welsh Wizard' (I suppose he must have been Minister of Magic before that).

I agree with Makgraf about 'Half Blood Prince' being a 'political nickname'. He won't necessarily be the a champion of Half bloods or anything like that, but rather instead just carry a nickname like Lloyd George's.

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Dumbledore - Jul 3, 2004 3:49 pm (#418 of 2923)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I agree with that. I never took the word 'prince' to actually mean a figure of royalty, but more of a metamorphical term for someone people look up to/revere.

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 3, 2004 3:55 pm (#419 of 2923)

I try to keep all possibilities open for fear that I will be proven wrong when book 6 comes out, but I agree with the political nickname theory too^_^

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vball man - Jul 3, 2004 5:00 pm (#420 of 2923)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
The other titles have been HP and X, where the book is about Harry's experience with X.

So it seems to me that it should be someone that Harry can interact with. I think it would have to be some odd magical device that would allow Harry to interact with Godric G. So I'd suggest that it's not Godric G.

Maybe some kid who went to Durmstrang. He'll transfer to Hogwarts in response to DD's offer. After all, we have not seen anything come of that invititaion, have we? The kid will have royal blood, and maybe some struggle between he and Harry will be set up.

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 3, 2004 5:24 pm (#421 of 2923)

I would like to think that this character, whoever he might turn out to be, would be on Harry's side. He will of course be the Half Blood Prince, which to me says that he will in some way be either half blood himself, or be a half blood supporter. He will most likely be easily recognised by us readers [as well as possibly Voldy and the DE's] as the Half Blood Prince by the end of the book. We know that Voldy and the DE's are far from supporters of half bloods, even though Voldy is a half blood himself. He will surround himself with pureblooded wizards/witches, so it's unlikely[even dangerous?] that this person will be a voldy supporter. So it seems more likely to me that he will be either a part of the Order, or of the MoM who now knows the Order to have been telling the truth.

Another way to look at it though.. if the HBP is not operating against Voldy in the beginning, he probably will at least be by the end of the book.

EDIT: With this said, I wonder if we couldn't throw Percy into the mix.. If we look at the HBP in terms of a supporter, rather than an actual half blood himself, then we could possibly see Arthur Weasley as a sort of 'king of muggles/half-bloods' therefore Percy being his son, there could be a connection with him somehow... I'm probably wrong about this however.. just trying to pump out ideas^_^

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haymoni - Jul 3, 2004 6:04 pm (#422 of 2923)

I'm sticking with Hagrid as the HBP - the introduction of Grawp in OotP seals it for me - he would be the Full Blood Prince and will be restored to his rightful place - Hagrid will stay where he is.

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MrsGump - Jul 3, 2004 6:07 pm (#423 of 2923)

vball man said:

"So it seems to me that it should be someone that Harry can interact with. I think it would have to be some odd magical device that would allow Harry to interact with Godric G. So I'd suggest that it's not Godric G."

JKR did say that Harry had to get the mirror from Sirius, because it would be important for books 6 and 7 (in the FAQ's of her web site, I think). So, vball man made me think that the HBP could be someone that Harry can talk to with the mirror. Maybe even Godric himself?

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TGF - Jul 3, 2004 6:50 pm (#424 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Why would Sirius have given him a mirror that would let him talk to Godric himself? That seems a trifle random.

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 3, 2004 6:55 pm (#425 of 2923)

Well.. if Harry couldn't talk to Sirius with the mirror, then why should he be able to talk to Godric?..

Or maybe we could turn the question around.. If he finds that he can talk to Godric, then why shouldn't he be able to talk to Sirius?^_~

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TGF - Jul 3, 2004 7:29 pm (#426 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Harry can't talk to dead people with the mirror. He tried it with Sirius, and the whole thing didn't go so well... So if he can't talk to the freshly-dead with the mirror, why would he be able to talk to the long-dead with the mirror?

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 3, 2004 7:40 pm (#427 of 2923)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
I think what JKR was implying with the mirror bit is that we will find out that if Harry used it, it would give away the OotP headQ's. I believe that we will find out that someone not so nice would have been able to track it.

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Hem Hem - Jul 3, 2004 10:51 pm (#428 of 2923)

Four Grimmauld Place was protected by a Fidelius Charm, so no spy would have ever been able to track the location based on only Harry's mirror. That said, I think that Harry was better off not using the mirror during the year was because he would stand risk of getting caught.

If the HBP is someone historical, maybe he'll interact only through a portrait or as a ghost. After all, Harry didn't spend too much time "interacting" with the Chamber of Secrets itself...I don't think that the fact HBP is mentioned in the title makes it necessary for the HBP to be alive -- even though I highly doubt that the mirrors would be of all that much help.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 3, 2004 11:10 pm (#429 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 3, 2004 11:11 pm
Hem hem wrote in the last post:

That said, I think that Harry was better off not using the mirror during the year was because he would stand risk of getting caught.

Was the risk any less than trying to stick his head in the fire in Umbridge's office? I guess I can see your point for the rest of the year, but not when he really needed to get in touch with Sirius.

My theory on the mirror (and this should probably be in the mirror thread or beyond the veil thread, but it was brought up here) is that it has nothing to do with the HBP. I think Sirius did not have the mirror on him, maybe Kreacher took it. That is why it would not have helped Harry. However, I think Harry will find it in 12GMP and try to throw it through the veil. After all lots of people have asked how we know what is beyond the veil if nobody returns. Well a mirror doesn't die, so it can return. Maybe Sirius can't, but a mirror can. Ok, so now I'll tie it back to the HBP. If the HBP is indeed a historical figure, maybe Sirius is hanging out with him beyond the veil. When Harry talks to Sirius with the mirror, Sirius is able to give Harry a message from the HBP. Ok that is bad but I wanted to tie it to this thread and it is possible.

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vball man - Jul 3, 2004 11:51 pm (#430 of 2923)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
MrsGrump, that's a good idea about Harry using the mirror to talk to GG. I hadn't thought of that. Do you think that JKR would have that do on for a whole book, though??

I still am inclined to think that HBP is someone that Harry will deal with in real life.

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Anna Osipova - Jul 4, 2004 12:39 am (#431 of 2923)

Actually, it's very possible that it's Hagrid. After all, there was quite a bit on him (with Aragog) in the second book.

I was re-reading some of the earlier replies to this topic. Many people seem to think that Tom Riddle is the Half-Blood Prince, and while it does seem to be logical, one thing has been nagging me. Tom Riddle is Voldemort, and JKR said that it was neither Harry nor Voldemort.

On the other hand, what rich said supports my earlier theory that it is Dean Thomas.

Ozymandis, while you have a good point, the fact that Lucius is a half-blood could have remained secret.

In one of her interviews, JKR told us that there was going to be a lot more regarding ghosts in future posts, and if that's true, then Nearly Headless Nick, or any other ghost for that matter, is a very likely candidate.

Dudley does seem to be a possible option because an opening chapter about him could have been used in any other book. However, I think Petunia is the more likely possibility to be a Squib than her parents, but that still doesn't change the fact that it might be Dudley.

As for Godric Gryffindor, how do we know that he isn't a ghost? He doesn't have to be at Hogwarts to be a ghost, or even if he is at Hogwarts, he might simply not show himself to the students.

I don't think that the mirror has anything to do with the Half Blood Prince unless, perchance, the Prince finds it and contacts Harry through it.

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riddikulus - Jul 4, 2004 12:58 am (#432 of 2923)

I think Jo announced the title because it's ready to print... although i think the dunderhead printers won't release it till say Christmas, for purposes of $. Anyway, back to the actual subject... I stick with my theory about Hagrid. I just don't see her throwing symantics at us over what prince might mean... I think it's going to be a person who either befriends or challenges harry. Krum was a suggestion that I'd like to investigate further, as well. I like peoples suggestion about Mark Evans... I was thinking that because he personally wasn't in CoS that it's not him... but what if something referring to him was... like GG heir... seems out there though.

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Anna Osipova - Jul 4, 2004 2:37 am (#433 of 2923)

I have just realized that I missed an entire couple of pages in reading the posts and so I’m rereading the posts and writing this as I go.

Anyway, I’m not quite sure what I’m saying here, but here’s a brainstorm and hopefully someone else will be able to connect the dots (if there are any to connect). What Chemyst, said got me thinking. Harry’s parents were killed on October the 31st (as was Nearly Headless Nick, but that doesn’t connect with what I’m trying to say, does it?). Is there any meaning behind why Voldemort chose to kill the Potters on Halloween? Or maybe the “half” refers to something that happened on April 30th?

But back to the main discussion, the “half-blood” definition made me refer back to Dean Thomas, as there are so many things that point to him.

Also, something about Dobby seems to strike me as above ordinary. Dobby managed to do so many things that any other house elf wouldn’t dare, or even be able to. There’s something very noble about him, at least among his kind.

Before I got to the mention of Firenze, I was just thinking about that. After all, there must have been a reason (other than a lack of a teacher) to re-introduce him. It couldn’t have been to provide us with any hints since he only revealed to us what we already knew.

Another thing, could it be Neville? Please forgive me if I’m wrong, but we’re never told if Alice Longbottom was a pureblood. Unfortunately, I don’t have the books at the moment to double-check what I’m saying, so I’m sorry if this is simply something I had forgotten.

I know this is far-fetched, but is it possible that (I’m referring to the whole deal with Molly witnessing Ron and Hermione dead in crowns…) Hermione becomes pregnant and she and Ron have a baby boy? It would be a half-blood, after all.

I don’t think it’s Lupin however because (once more sorry I’m mistaken), he was never mentioned in any of the books preceding PA, and I’m convinced that it was someone who was at least mentioned in CS.

Green Eyes, while your logic makes sense, JKR told us that Harry is not the HBP. However, I don’t quite understand your last sentence. What do you mean by marriage? Are you referring to it as in holy matrimony or as in a conjunction?

Just a comment for thought, but I’m guessing that many of the pure-blood family members don’t necessarily hold themselves to the bind of their marriage. I’m quite sure, for example, the Lucius has not been entirely faithful to Narcissa, and vice verse.

I’m just wondering, but is there any chance at all that it could be a female? Maybe a new character with a surname of Prince. Just another random speculation.

Since I don’t have the books with me, can someone clear up whether or not Malfoy has ever been referred to as “The Prince of Slytherin”? I was sure I had heard that somewhere, but perhaps I mixed it up with someone’s fanfiction.

Mark Evans is a possibility, too. This leads again to my speculation that Lily’s parents were wizards and that Petunia was a Squib. However, this means that either Mr. Evans had an affair or another marriage that we haven’t heard of.

Grant, I like your theory with the book pyramid. The 5th book actually fits in too, because the Order is introduced and that is a way of ridding the evil. Also, the fact that the public has now acknowledged Voldemort’s return is also good, and that will likely be addressed in the 6th book, so putting the Order and the acknowledgment together works as a double shield against Voldemort.

It could be a real prince because I’m quite positive that at least one wizard or witch has married a previous noble.

Back to the mirror. I’m quite sure that there are two more of the mirrors lying around and that that was how MWPP talked with each other. (There was a mention that that’s how P and P conversed during separate detentions, wasn’t it?) But the main point is that there might be two more mirrors, and perhaps the HBP holds one of them?

Sorry that this is so long, I just like to keep my options open Smile.

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Puja - Jul 4, 2004 3:40 am (#434 of 2923)

Hi, this is my first post, so please correct me if I am wrong. I've read several posts of this thread, and found that many of you are saying that Mark Evans is the half blood prince. Well, I don't think so; Mark is 'Evans'- a muggle, he can't be the half blood prince. Besides even if he is a prince I don't think he would be of any great help to Harry, after all he is just a kid who does not even know the basic spells. I think this HBP is Godric Gryffindor or may be ....Snape:) However there is another possibility, JKR generally gives us a prior hint to key characters (for example, Sirius was mentioned in PS), so I think that perhaps this half blood prince is the mystery Slytherin who could see the thestrals in Hagrid's class. May be he will help in the unification of the houses.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 4, 2004 3:45 am (#435 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 4, 2004 3:48 am
I just wanted to comment on a few characters that Anna Osipova mentioned, as others have mentioned them as well.

Ron and Hermione's baby- I really, really don't think this is going to be it. For the baby to be born during book 6, it would pretty much have to be concieved already or like in the first month at Hogwarts. They have not even had a date yet (I don't even think Ron knows what his feelings for Hermione are), and I don't think JKR will have 16 year olds making babies in a book geared toward young adults and kids. I know adults read it, but that is just because JKR is brilliant, not because it is geared toward us. The main reason for this theory is because of the crowns in Harry's dream. That stemmed from Harry's jealousy that they (especially Ron) had prefect badges and he didn't. The badge, a symbol of authority, was represented in the dream by a crown. I don't think it means more. The only way I can see a Ron and Hermione baby mentioned is if it is through a prophecy, and we have dealt with one of those in the last two books. I doubt third time is a charm.

Neville- Dumbledore says Neville is pure-blooded. From Chapter 37, pg 842 OotP "[Voldemort] chose, not the pureblood..., but the half-blood like himself." This is in reference to the fact that two children could have been the one the prophecy was about. If Harry is the half-blood, Neville has to be the pure-blood. Also, in CoS, when Neville is scared, someone tells him he need not worry as he is pure blood. He answers something along the lines of, yes, but Iam almost a squib (don't have that book handy right now). So while Neville could be the HBP through an expansive definition of half-blood, he has pure wizard blood.

Firenze- Although Firenze is the most wizard friendly of the centaurs, I think even he would be upset if you called him a half-blood. Centaurs are not the product of a human and a horse, they are a unique race that just happens to have characteristics of the two. At least I think so, can someone check if they are in Fantastic Beasts? I do know they chose to be considered beasts by the ministry. Whether they are half-breeds are not, I don't think they'd take kindly to be called so. That doesn't rule him out, again, but it casts a strong doubt in my mind. Plus, there was a reason, story-wise, for him to teach Divination. His leaving to teach students angered the centaurs and caused them to atack Umbridge. Plus somebody had to replace Trewlaney. She had to be fired to set-up the suspense about when Hagrid would be fired and therefore when "Hermy" would have to teach Grawp English.

Pyramid scheme- Is there really enough info to go on? We have one pair of books in this pyramid. And that doesn't even match up right. Sirius was in the Order of the Phoenix, so how could he be on the opposite side of it. The theory could work, but it is something we need more info on.

Ps How do you all keep your posts so short? You seem to get your point across in 2-3 lines and I ramble on for 3/4 of a page.

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Green Eyes - Jul 4, 2004 8:00 am (#436 of 2923)

Anna Osipova...I meant literally marriage (through the Weasley family)...but there are so many unanswered questions that I can't say I'm certain on any of my Harry theory of having both Slytherin and Gryffindor inside himself and thus sealing the breach between the two houses 1000 years ago. There is a theory on Mugglenet.com called the Changeling Theory (on the Magic Quill Editorial Board, I think), that suggests Harry actually is carrying the soul of Tom Riddle around inside him...that's what got me started thinking on all this.

Plus, COS is a book about something from the past (the Chamber and it's opening)so I'm inclined to think that if HBP does not refer to Tom Riddle (and I think it very well could per Harry's conversation with Dobby at the end of COS) then it probably has something to do with the Gryffindor/Slytherin business.

SOOOO many unanswered questions though:

Why did the Potters go into hiding...Did Dumbledore warn them about the prophesy?

Why are ALL the Weasley's in Gryffindor? Pavarti and Padma Patil are twins and in separate houses.

Why is Ginny Weasley the ONLY girl born to the Weasley's in several generations?

Why does the sorting hat bring Harry the sword of Godric Gryffindor in COS? Why didn't Fawkes just drop him the sword? (Maybe because it was symbolic...Harry CHOSE not to go into the house that would be most natural for him (SLytherin) due to his talents)

We know alot about Salazar Slytherin's ideolgoy on pureblood mania and his reasons for leaving the school. We don't know alot about Gryffindor and WHY DOES THE SCHOOL STILL HAVE A HOUSE CALLED SLYTHERIN?

What is important about Fawkes? His tail feathers made the wands, so he's been around a long time. He is like the familiar of Dumbledore...what is the significance of this?

If Voldemort now has a body, he can be mortally killed, did he not have one before? Why was he not completely killed before? He wanted the SStone because it would make him immortal.

Anyway...I sound like I'm making up a lit test! I could list many more questions but I'd love to hear the discussion on these!

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nessie1013 - Jul 4, 2004 9:27 am (#437 of 2923)

Someone else said something like this earlier in this thread, but all the previous book titles contain an element that there is some sort of conspiracy about-- someone else knows something important about the thing (or person in the case of POA), and we follow Harry as he discovers that for himself. So the question in my mind is who knows about the HBP already, and why has this information been concealed from Harry, or what does he have to find out about the HBP? The problem is that the person in CoS whom this would fit best is Tom Riddle... but he seems to count as Voldemort and thus be out of the running.

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Diagon Nilly - Jul 4, 2004 9:45 am (#438 of 2923)

I'm off topic, but wanted to respond to a couple of comments...so please forgive me.

"Harry’s parents were killed on October the 31st (as was Nearly Headless Nick, but that doesn’t connect with what I’m trying to say, does it?). Is there any meaning behind why Voldemort chose to kill the Potters on Halloween?"

Considering Harry's birthday, he also would have been conceived on or about Halloween...But this belongs in the "Significance of Halloween" thread.

Also, it takes about 6 months to print a book once it's finished being written? I'm not sure. But JKR said she just finished her first draft...I think she'll have a few more drafts to go before she's satisfied (how many drafts does a book typically have?). Christmas would be a very optimistic time to get the book out.

I'm sorry for the digression, folks...

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 4, 2004 9:48 am (#439 of 2923)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
I think the comment about finishing her first draft was on the fake Pillar sheet wasn't it? I may be wrong now, but I don't think so. (HA HA , I am a Monk fan)

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Diagon Nilly - Jul 4, 2004 9:50 am (#440 of 2923)

Oh dang, was it? I'm getting my fake news reports mixed with my real news reports. Gah!

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TGF - Jul 4, 2004 12:32 pm (#441 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
If she'd finished a first draft, then it would be very close to being submited to her publishers. Writing the whole thing beginning to end is the hard part. Editing it through just involves reading it over and ensuring that there's nothing wrong. The number of drafts a book gets depends on the author and the book. I'm not quite sure how many drafts JKR goes through though.

Of course, I've heard nothing about her saying that she's got a first draft yet. Still, I think we're closer than we think.

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hermione - Jul 4, 2004 2:37 pm (#442 of 2923)

Hi guys, I'm new here, so sorry if you've already discussed this. Starting on the very first posts of this thread, I agree that the HBP could be Seamus Finnigan...but in that case, anyone who's a half-blood could be the HBP. Since JKR said that he's neither Harry nor Voldemort, that takes them off the very long list. It could also be Mark Evans, who we don't know much about, just that he was beaten up by Dudley and that his last name is the same as Lily Potter's maiden name. He may come into play later, as JKR sort of hints at. *shrugs*

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Warty Harris - Jul 4, 2004 2:56 pm (#443 of 2923)

I noticed on the Clues in Movies about what is coming in book 6 and 7 thread that in the movie Chamber of Secrets there is a statue of a wizard that Ron and Harry hide behind. In the book it is a knight that they hide behind. If you look at this wizard he has smaller statues around his feet. They are the lion, snake, eagle and badger.

This wizard statue could be Godric Gryffindor or an early professor of the school. I doubt it is too important since it wasn't in the book, but it may be significant. Maybe the history about Gryffindor will be revealed. Maybe Mark Evans is Gryffindor's descendant....who knows.

I thought it may mean something.

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Ellen Stockley - Jul 4, 2004 3:02 pm (#444 of 2923)

Hi, I've been waiting a while to post, since I've just joined, so just some further thoughts on the HBP...

I don't think it sounds like a title refering to someone recent, so more likely to be a historical figure.

I totally agree with whoever said it must be something that would fit into the plot of CoS, but also something that could be removed without completely changing the story. Because of this I'm going along the lines of expanding the Founders of Hogwarts.

I was thinking Gryffindor, since this could explain the falling out with him and Slytherin. And think of the scene in COS, when Fawkes turns up and brings Gryffindor's sword and hat - 2 of his personal possessions.

Also - just a side thought - do we know Salazar Slytherin was pure blood?! I know he favours these students, but then Voldermort favours pure blood followers too! Why is Tom Riddle the only one able to open the COS - what about all his ancesters before him from Slytherin? Did they maybe not go to Hogwarts? (maybe this belongs in another thread - sorry, I'm new!)

Ok, enough for now....

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Warty Harris - Jul 4, 2004 3:12 pm (#445 of 2923)

Here is the quote (the website was provided by Tomoe)

Crystal - Jan 29, 2004 9:53 pm (#256 of 525) Looking at the picture, I would think this is the Wizard who built Hogwarts. He has Architect devices in his hand. The fact that he is holding his possible creation is another clue that this may be the sorcerer responsible for Hogwarts.....now why the the big pig statue?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] .

okay...this is real small! In the movie Chamber of Secrets Harry and Ron hide behind a statue of a wizard when they Wingardium Leviosa the cupcakes in front of Crabbe and Goyle.

Take a close look at the wizard....He must be Godrc Gryffindor. I cannot figure out if there is a hog or a bird at his feet, but it is a very interesting statue. On one side there is a lion, and he is holding a scaled down version of Hogwarts. Later on when Harry see Tom Riddle's thoughts we see a statue of a hog. So this may be another Hog by Godric Gryffindor, but it may be Fawkes as well. I cannot remember anything about this statue in books however.

Me- This continues on with the thread...I just thought it was interesting.

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Green Eyes - Jul 4, 2004 4:35 pm (#446 of 2923)

I think these are the lion (gryffindor), the raven (ravenclaw), the snake (Slytherin) and the other animal (looks like a badger) could be the mascot of Hufflepuff. But the builder might be someone other than Gryffindor because all of the others helped found the school...who actually did the building might be someone else.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 4, 2004 5:24 pm (#447 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
A badger is indeed the Hufflepuff mascot. I assume this is because they dig and "digging in" is a metaphor for working hard, hufflepuff's trait. Where did this picture come from? Was it a drawing in a book or did someone else draw it based on what they saw in the movie? I am confused about that.

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Anna Osipova - Jul 4, 2004 6:39 pm (#448 of 2923)

Is it possible that the HBP is an idea, not necesarily a person? Couldn't it be a myth or something?

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Jimi - Jul 4, 2004 10:08 pm (#449 of 2923)

The half blood prince. I have read so many different theories, alot of them with a solid base idea. Dean Thomas was a good theory that I thought was likely, but on her website JKR.com she says that Dean's story was sacrificed for Nevilles. Mark Evans is the right age to be starting at hogwarts and the name must be more than a coincidence. But the title may be an entirely new character. I only finished rereading chamber of secrets yesterday (I think that was about the 23rd time)and couldnt pickup on anything about halfbloods... and am wondering if HBP (half blood prince) is symbolic of someone who isn't halfblood but unites two different groups anyway thats all from me for now

Jimi

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Ozymandias - Jul 5, 2004 1:01 am (#450 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
I've been wondering about some of the questions Green Eyes has posted, and here's what I've come up with:

Godric Gryffindor is the HBP, either in the sense of actual blood or in championing the half-bloods. When Salazar Slytherin left the school, Gryffindor somehow found out about the CoS, or maybe just knew his friend and suspected that he would do something like this. He built his own secret chamber, containing something that would allow his heir to defeat the Heir of Slytherin if he put Slytherin's "get rid of the mudbloods" plan into action. This chamber is a purely defensive measure, and can only be opened if the Slytherin chamber is opened.

Ginny Weasley is the heir of Gryffindor. I think that the Weasleys are descendants of Gryffindor, but Ginny is the heir because of some condition other than traditional blood inheritance (a prophecy perhaps? or maybe the heir must embody the spirit of Gryffindor?). I think that the fact that Ginny is the only female Weasley in several generations plays into this somehow. (If the Slytherin chamber must be opened first, it would be important that she is the first heir in at least 50 years.) Ginny will be able to open the Gryffindor chamber of secrets, which contains a weapon that will be able to be used in the fight against Voldemort (though I doubt it will be the killing blow.)

Random detail: Nearly Headless Nick will tell Ginny that she is the Heir of Gryffindor.

What do you think? Am I going to regret committing this wild theory to print? ;P

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HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05) Empty HP6: the Half Blood Prince (Jun 04-Mar 05) (Post 451 to 500)

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:33 am

Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 5, 2004 3:54 am (#451 of 2923)
A number of things, having just poured through the posts having been away for the weekend. Firstly, J K Rowling says on her site that she is still writing the book. Even a first draft needs re-writing. Then there is the editting process. This can be anyhting between six months to a year. So Christmas is, as far as I can tell, out. Christmas next year may be. As a writer, proof reader and copy-editor I know how long this process is, and boy is it boring and painful as bits are removed - oh to have an authors cut of the Harry Potter Books with the bits left in (but how big would Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix be?).

As Ginny is the youngest Weasley I doubt she would be the Heir of Gryffindor.

While the Dean Thomas story was sacrificed for Neville's, this may not be perminant. Neville was important as an ally for Harry in Order of the Phoenix, Dean was mainly neutral. Now Neville's story has been established, Dean's could be re-introduced. Remember Neville's parents were incapacitated by Bellatrix Lestrange, Dean's father was killed by Voldemort. Voldemort is now back so Dean's story is much more important.

Now for why Tom Riddle, a half-blood, was in Slythein. He is the last heir of Slytherin. Can you imagine such a person in any other house? I just wonder what the Sorting Hat said to Riddle?

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Ozymandias - Jul 5, 2004 4:23 am (#452 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
Oh, I'd love to hear that conversation.

As for the Ginny as the heir, will someone please explain why the heir would have to be firstborn? I've heard that several times now, and I really don't get it. I've always thought that your heir is whoever you want it to be. For example, my brother and I would be equal heirs to my parents' estate (hopefully a long, long, long time from now.) So why couldn't Gryffindor say that his heir will be a descendant with such-and-such characteristics, and whoever fulfills those conditions would be the heir, even if it would skip over a lot of his descendants?

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M36 - Jul 5, 2004 5:45 am (#453 of 2923)

Hello! Was just wondering what anyone thought about Hargrid being HBP?(apologies if its been discussed already). In Goblet of Fire the fact that Hagrid is Half Blood is mentioned a lot. Also, in Chamber of Secrets hes framed by Tom Riddle, could this be for a deeper meaning? Also, hes always lurking in Knockturn Alley, clearly he has some secrets.

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mike miller - Jul 5, 2004 5:59 am (#454 of 2923)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
Ozy - As far as the heir thing goes, it's primarily tradition (and a very long held one at that). I don't think Ginny is the heir to Gryffindor, I think that title beolongs to Harry. The blood prejudice we see in CoS seems to go back to the split between Salazar Slytherin and Godric Gryffindor. Since we know Voldemort to be the heir of Slytherin it makes sense that Harry will be the heir of Gryffindor.

I like the hypothesis put forth by Hem Hem regarding the HBP being Tom Riddle's maturnal grandfather Marvolo. I have noticed that the book titles seem to refer to something important to the story but not central to it, not the key element. The final showdown will be between Harry and Voldemort, so Tom's grandfather is a critical element but it's his link back to Salazar and the blood prejudice that is central to the story line.

Like everyone, I've been mulling over all of these post, the theories and books and I think Marvolo might be the best fit based on the book titles and the link back to CoS. I still don't have a problem with the HBP being Tom, JKR could be becoming more direct and obvious in her titles as we near the end of the series. All in all, I'm betting on Tom or Marvolo.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 5, 2004 9:38 am (#455 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Phelim Mcintyre, I like the Dean Thomas theory too. However, when JKR said she cut it for Neville's story on her site, she also said we probably never would see it in a book. And for Dean to be the HBP, we need that story.

M36, Hagrid has been discussed. Some people think it is him. Others don't know how he would be a prince. We have seen the Giant leadership structure and it is built on strength, not a royal line. Hagrid and Grawp are too small. He is one of my favorite theories though.

Ozymandias, how the heir of gryffindor works really depends on what the person is heir too (an estate, a title, a secret power). However, it is usually either all descendents are heirs or just the first born (sometimes first born male). The fromer would mean all the Weasley children would be heirs if the Weasley's were the decendants. The latter would mean just Bill (or Charlie, I forgot who is older). It could be the first born female in every generation is entitled to some power, it just wouldn't be normal. Plus, if we are thinking the heir of Gryffindor is the HBP (or Godric himself is), it couldn't be the Weasleys because they are considered pure-blood and we have to trust that those things are right. Otherwise the HBP could be anybody. Which is possible, but it makes discussion harder.

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Devika - Jul 5, 2004 10:38 am (#456 of 2923)

I haven't been able to read all the posts, but I think that this is a title which seems to have some structural similarity with PoA. But interestingly, while throughout PoA, we kept thinking that Sirius is the real criminal and he really turned out to be an innocent victim, I think it is highly possible that a major part of the story will be a conflict or possible mystery over this 'half-blood' identity of this protagonist. Once again, I am pretty sure this is someone we have seen before. This is mainly because I think JKR mentioned somewhere that OoP was so long because she wanted to bring in key aspects which wouldn't seem new later. That's why i think it is difficult to imagine a character to come out from the blue. but then again it is equally possible since that's where the mystery can come in!

As for who it is my bet is on Mark Evans. Somehow, the "prince" part seems to ring true for him. It is most likely someone young, but again I don't see how she can make a new kid a part of a complex plot. But then that's her job! Mark Evans also seems likely because his parentage is obviously why we are interested in him and this title is particularly suggestive. Do comment.

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haymoni - Jul 5, 2004 10:45 am (#457 of 2923)

Wandless - the Giant leadership structure is built on strenght NOW - it has to be, but we don't know what it was like before they were chased from England.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 5, 2004 11:02 am (#458 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Hayomi- True, but I was trying to explain the downsides of the Hagrid theory quickly. Complete explanation of all theories surrounding Hagrid would be long, and my posts are generally long enough already. Also, I don't buy that Giants were originally ruled by a royal family. Leadership built on strength just fits with what we have seen of giants. In my opinion, if Hagrid is the HBP, it will either be a metaphorical prince or from his Dad's side somehow. Maybe his Dad was a prince of England and almost disowned when they found out he was a wizard. Then when he brought a giantess home, he was completely disowned....err...then again, maybe not.

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colbow - Jul 5, 2004 12:15 pm (#459 of 2923)

This is my first post here ,be easy on me(haha) , but I think the HBP may be Godric Gryfinndor or Mark Evans. I would like to see the Mark Evans storyline come into play, as then maybe we would find out more about Aunt Petunia....I think she may indeed be a squib ( maybe that's why she has so much anger towards Lily) Seems to me that JKR play alot into that storyline in OoP, does anyone think that the letter that Dumbledore wrote could really contain ALL that info that she knew? Thanks for listening and look forward to posting again.

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Star Crossed - Jul 5, 2004 1:08 pm (#460 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Colbow, welcome to the forum! It is unlikely Aunt Petunia's a squib, because her parents would have to be a witch and wizard, and it has been said many times than Lily is muggleborn.

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colbow - Jul 5, 2004 1:20 pm (#461 of 2923)

True! I got caught up in the whole idea..*embarassed* I should have remembered that... but I do hope that JKR does explore more into the Potter/Evans storyline. Thanks for the warm welcome..

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almightykneazle33 - Jul 5, 2004 3:58 pm (#462 of 2923)

I am the Almighty Kneazle. Do not ask questions.
Wow! Waaaaay too many posts to sift through! But I've finally reached the end, yaaay!! (Okay, I'm done celebrating!)

My thoughts... I'm sure everyone's already got their ideas firmly formed, but I'm here to poke some holes...

Hagrid: You know, at first, I was rooting for Hagrid. But, (maybe it's because I don't really like Hagrid) I decided it couldn't be. Hagrid usually doesn't have very big of a part to play in the story, and maybe HBP could be the one to change this, but personally I don't think so. Hagrid is a possibility, but I don't think this is probable because I just can't see him playing that big of a part in HBP. He fits the category because of the parts he played in both CoS and GoF, with CoS exposing his story of being expelled, and GoF continuing this with Rita Skeeter's interview. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, his story is making the most sense to be the HBP, but I still don't believe he is. So, I deem him first runner-up!

Tom Riddle: No... Tom clearly states: "I AM Lord Voldermort." Not was, not going to be, AM. Tom and Voldermort are the same person, and as he says, "Voldermort is my past, present, and future." In addition, Dumbledore doesn't call him Voldermort when they are dueling in the MoM, he calls him 'Tom'. And, if we can't believe Dumbledore, we can't believe anyone ;-). Lastly, for those of you who argue that JKR could be pulling a Dobby, I don't believe so, because Dobby says 'He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named', not Voldermort, because before he became Voldermort he could be named freely. But Tom never changed. For example, if you get a new nickname and get plastic surgery, you are still the same person, you don't change who you were. Alright, enough with this, I'm sure everyone gets my point.

Mark Evans: As much as I would like the HBP to be Mark Evans, I just can't see it happening. Mark got one-line to himself in all these books, and I do realize that the same thing happened with Sirius. But, PoA was earlier in the series, and JKR could still easily introduce many new characters. (Not that we aren't going to get new characters, I just don't think we will find too many super-crucial new characters.) Plus, how could she have named CoS differently if Mark Evans was the HBP? I can't see Mark fitting into the second book quite as nicely as he will later. Believe me, I think that little Mr. Evans is going to make an appearance (I would be EXTREMELY dissapointed if he didn't!) But I don't think that he's going to be the HBP himself... maybe a different connection with Harry.

Dean Thomas: No, no, and another no. Why would JKR have put so much detail about his life on her website? Maybe that's another way of hers to tell us that we're going in the wrong direction with this by looking at the Hogwarts students. (Standby students I mean.. students that are just THERE, ((ex: Seamus, Dean, Lavender.. etc)) not like the Weasley family). I highly HIGHLY doubt that Dean is going to play a big part in future books, mostly because JKR seems to have forsaken any future chances of him doing so by posting his full story online.

Slytherin or Gryfindor: Now, here are my main contenders. One or both of these fellows I can easily percieve being a halfblood, and we have never really understood what is was that made these two friends split. Since Slytherin was the one who started all this pure-blood nonsense, it could easily be concieveable that Gryfindor (being a half-blood) was offended. That was the first small thing that began to split their friendship, and Godric could tell that Salazaar could never get too close to him because of his pureblood paranoia. Anytime they had a disagreement, Slytherin would dismiss Gryfindor's ideas, and wouldn't listen to him. Thus, the split.

The easiest place for this to have been introduced in CoS is when Binn's is giving his speech on the Chamber... the speech could have been quickly reduced or added to, depending on the need. Also, in the Chamber itself, a lot more emphasis could be placed on the fact that Tom was Slytherin's heir, and, being a halfblood, was still obsessed with the pureblood nonsense, hating his father for making him a halfblood (hence, the connection with GoF).

Okay, I've rambled a bit, but I read 400+ posts, I can ramble!! Hahaha, jk, jk... Yep, so I've poked holes in other people's theories, so feel free to poke holes in mine! Poke away!

``--the almighty kneazle--``

EDIT: Just added some formatting to make this easier to read..

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Day - Jul 5, 2004 4:09 pm (#463 of 2923)

Welcome Colbow, it is really easy to get caught in the excitement of all the new ideas thrown out here. No need to be embarassed :-).

I am begining to warm up to this Mark Evans idea. Though I am compelled to speculate that it should be a character from Cos or before.

I really enjoyed the point made that the HBP may not be someone involved during the entire book. The POA was not physically around most of book 3 but he was discussed and related to. Same as the "heir of slytherin" in COS. The chamber was only in the very end. Anyone agree with this train of thought?

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 5, 2004 4:40 pm (#464 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
A lot of people seem to feel that the HBP has to be a previously unimportant character because that is the trend of the books (See Cuivienen post #463 for a good explanation of the idea). However, I would like to point out that this is the first time the title was ever considered for another book before. That makes things slightly different. Now we could be seeing an old character in a new light and the new way we see them is the title.

Then again, maybe the HBP was someone who could have been introduced in Book 2 and was held off until Book 6. Then they are a somewhat new character, someone like Mark Evans. He is being dismissed by some because he could not have been in book 2. The almighty Kneazle asks in post #462: "Plus, how could she have named CoS differently if Mark Evans was the HBP? I can't see Mark fitting into the second book quite as nicely as he will later." Well, he could have been a new student in Ginny's year. Maybe instead of the diary possesing Ginny, it possessed Mark. Harry went after him because he was, or Harry thought he was, somehow related to Lilly. I am just throwing out guesses because I am not sure what the HBP is or how MArk Evans fits in. The point is he could have been in CoS and written out completely.

I guess the bottom line is that I do not think we can say for sure whether it will be a new or old character. The question is how much did JKR take out of CoS. That is a question we don't know the answer to and can't guess. Still fun to try though

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Tom Vitleysa - Jul 5, 2004 4:51 pm (#465 of 2923)

Is it totally out of the question that the HBP is referring to a different HBP than the original title may have referred to? I do remember JKR saying she liked the title. Could she have seen an opportunity to revive it with a different character and grabbed it? This theory, at least, gives more hope to the Mark Evans supporters. I don't think Mark Evans could have been the original HBP, because JKR said the Weasleys' cousin was the first character she'd written out of one of her books, didn't she?

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Day - Jul 5, 2004 6:01 pm (#466 of 2923)

Many times I have read that JKR has always known the main flow of the complete story. It seems to me that even though the use of the title and the story line may have been postponed it was always going to be part of the complete story. The characters have tweaked and manipulated but only one character has been admittedly deleted completely. This hints to me that IF this Halfblood Prince is a character we don't already know then it has been referenced somehow somewhere in the books. I really believe that this will not a surprise that leaves people wondering "Who's that?"

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Denise P. - Jul 5, 2004 6:24 pm (#467 of 2923)

Ravenclaw Pony
This post was originally made by

Cuivienen - Jul 5, 2004 5:36 pm

The forums must have eaten my previous response...

Remember that everything related to the HBP was cut from CoS. There are hints, but Mark Evans may have originally been older and thus would attend Hogwarts in Harry's second year. We can't say how this would affect the storyline, as we don't know *what* the HBP *is*.

On Mafalda (Weasley cousin) -- She was the first character cut entirely. Had the HBP been removed from CoS along with the title, he would still have to appear eventually, and thus was never removed entirely from the books. Mafalda Weasley, though, will never appear. It's interesting, too, that Mafalda would have a Weasley in Slytherin. It's possible that she was cut partially to maintain the "all-Weasleys-in-Gryffindor" attitude, perhaps indicating that a Weasley would be somehow related to Godric Gryffindor (obscure, I know, but still possible).

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Denise P. - Jul 5, 2004 6:27 pm (#468 of 2923)

Ravenclaw Pony
Edited Jul 5, 2004 7:07 pm
Apologies for interrupting the flow of the conversation with my moving some responses. Here is another one originally posted by

Cuivienen - Jul 5, 2004 4:08 pm
The simple argument for someone completely new:

We had never heard a word about the Chamber of Secrets before the book was released. We knew Slytherin was a school founder, that's as close as you can come.

We knew only that Azkaban was the "wizard prison" from CoS. Nothing else. Certainly nothing to indicate that someone would break out of Azkaban or that that someone had betrayed the Potters (Even though he hadn't). Sirius had but one line that mentioned him near the beginning of P/SS, certainly not enough to indicate anything about him.

The Goblet of Fire came from nowhere. The Triwizard Tournament came from nowhere. There was no precedent whatsoever for the book title or premise.

The singular mention of the Order of the Phoenix came at the tail end of GoF -- gather the "old crowd." Certainly not enough information to tie that line to the title of the next novel.

Therefore, I think that the HBP will be either someone mentioned onmce or twice in the past (Mark Evans) or someone completely new -- certainly not Hagrid or Tom Riddle.

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PKchopper - Jul 5, 2004 6:58 pm (#469 of 2923)

It bothers me to hear someone speculate that Dumbledore may die. Could this be true and the HBP is prophesized by Trelawney when all hope of defeating the Dark Lord is squashed by Dumbledore’s untimely death?

But really I think it has to be Mark Evans or the new DADA teacher.

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Chemyst - Jul 5, 2004 7:45 pm (#470 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
If the HBP is a living flesh & ½ blood person, then I think I'd put my sickles on him being the next DADA teacher. Lockhart may have been a second-draft replacement if JKR decided that using the HBP in CS was giving too much away too early. The only things Lockhart seems to have given away are autographed photos. She has also said that Lockhart was the only character based on a real person, so, -- guessing here -- if she decided to delay using the HBP, knowing a real-life prototype would make it easier to substitute with Gilderoy. This theory makes the most sense when you see all the books as one long story and the author is shuffling the order in which the story is told, because Lockhart didn't fit into any interim story until he was used to invite the trio into the Janus Thickly Ward at St. Mungos where we pick up two more story threads, the Longbottoms and Broderick Bode.

If the HBP is not a currently living person, then it may be a portrait or statue (...a bone china nicknack?) of an historical figure. My reason for guessing this is that Harry is in the present. We have seen history replayed in the Pensieve, but wouldn't that require a living person's memory to work? We've seen time-turners, but I doubt they could turn back time before the user was born, and bedsides, it is too risky. So instead of devising a magic to send Harry back, it makes more sense to find a method to bring an historical figure into the present.

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PKchopper - Jul 5, 2004 8:35 pm (#471 of 2923)

I was just reading some through the Harry thread and the theme, which resonated most with me, is the Karate Kid theme, specifically Harry just keeps escaping/wining by luck. Harry has definitely shown glimpses of greatness and I have to remind myself that we ARE at book six. This one and one more to go and that’s it.

Scary, it is scary that he needs to defeat LV and he can’t successfully transfigure a teacup yet or routinely perform many other basic spells. It seems that his parents and their peers were way ahead of HRH and the rest.

I have to believe that the HBP is going to be a living flesh and blood person very much in the here and now. It is someone who will inspire Harry to “greatness”.

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Warty Harris - Jul 5, 2004 9:36 pm (#472 of 2923)

Wandless Wizard - The drawing of the statue is on the second "extras" DVD of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. The statue is in the movie only for a moment but I tried to get a good look at it after that post. In the same thread the same person who brought up the statue (Crystal) mentions the book cover in the Ukraine for Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. It is the statue of Magical Brethren. This is one of my favorite book covers as well as Crystals. Anyway I thought it was interesting. Add on the fact that once again statues play a minor role in the movie Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. There were statues of an eagle with a snake in his mouth. This a symbol on the Mexican flag. Also, statues of pigs are all over the place.

I do not know if it is important but if it is a statue of Godric Gryffindor then he does in a roundabout way make an appearance in the movie Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. It may not be Godric Gryffindor and it may be just an extra part of the set. I remember J.K. Rowling saying there were many things in this movie that foreshadowed future books. I think she said the same thing about the Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban movie. I will look over the interview again.

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Grant the Great - Jul 5, 2004 10:41 pm (#473 of 2923)

Denise: "We knew Slytherin was a school founder, that's as close as you can come."

Actually, maybe just because I was naive to the ways of life, but I never knew the houses were named after people until book 2. A minor point, but technically, we didn't find out about Salazar as a founder until Binns taught about him in CoS.

Denise again: "The singular mention of the Order of the Phoenix came at the tail end of GoF -- gather the "old crowd." Certainly not enough information to tie that line to the title of the next novel."

Again, not to be rude or anything, but I disagree. I--among many other people--was almost positive that the title referred to the "old crowd" when the title was announced. It ws the first thought that came to my mind, and I'm sure to many others'.

Chemyst: "Lockhart may have been a second-draft replacement if JKR decided that using the HBP in CS was giving too much away too early. The only things Lockhart seems to have given away are autographed photos. She has also said that Lockhart was the only character based on a real person, so, -- guessing here -- if she decided to delay using the HBP, knowing a real-life prototype would make it easier to substitute with Gilderoy. This theory makes the most sense when you see all the books as one long story and the author is shuffling the order in which the story is told, because Lockhart didn't fit into any interim story until he was used to invite the trio into the Janus Thickly Ward at St. Mungos where we pick up two more story threads, the Longbottoms and Broderick Bode."

Once more, I disagree. I feel like Lockhart was ingrained fairly well into the story of Chamber of Secrets. There was the whole book-signing thing where Mr. Weasley fought Mr. Malfoy (and Mr. Malfoy slipped the diary into Ginny's cauldron). As someone mentioned earlier, if he hadn't been there to perform a backfiring "Obliviate!", Harry would have gone into the Chamber with Ron (given, you could argue that JKR could have petrified Ron, too, but he's pureblood). Also, Lockhart just seems to have many smaller parts that I have forgotten. With all of the girls loving him, I doubt JKR would go to the trouble to include ALL of those simple comments about hearts around DADA class schedules. I think Lockhart was originally intended for CoS. Now, that doesn't mean the DADA teacher can't be the HBP (though, personally, I favor the Gryffindor theory). Anyway, that's all (wow, I promise I'm not normally this negative!!!).

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mooncalf - Jul 5, 2004 11:28 pm (#474 of 2923)

At the risk of sounding like a moron - when I first heard the title of Order of the Phoenix, I thought the Order would be an award - like the Order of Merlin.

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Chemyst - Jul 6, 2004 12:09 am (#475 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Actually Mooncalf, that's logical. Not moronic at all.

I feel like Lockhart was ingrained fairly well into the story of Chamber of Secrets. -Grant the Great . . Well of course he was! I'll try and explain my line of reasoning better. If we start with the idea that JKR was originally going to put HbP in CS, but then decides that his story would be better placed later in the series, then we can ask, "Which character in CS seems most likely to have filled in the "hole" that would be left by moving HbP to a future book?" I realize that is a sort of backwards approach, but some of the farthest flung objects in space and some of the tiniest pieces of matter have been discovered by seeing holes and hypothesizing that something should fit there. What I was suggesting was that if you look at all the characters in CS, Lockhart is the one who most looks like he was added after someone else had been moved to a later part of the story. When you look at the Lockhart character, he is either providing annoying comedy of a buffoon or he is someone for Harry to react to. So while he has a major role in CS, he is not integrated into the larger themes of Harry's identity or his ultimate destiny in the Voldemort War the way Lupin or Mad-Eye Crouch were. Part of that would be because Lockhart was such a shallow character to begin with, but if CS was restructured to remove the HbP to a later book, one would expect the replacement to be a little disconnected to the BIG PICTURE. Lockhart fills that criteria very well.

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Puja - Jul 6, 2004 2:20 am (#476 of 2923)

Anna Osipova - "Is it possible that the HBP is an idea, not necesarily a person? Couldn't it be a myth or something?"

I don't think so. I still think that either Gryffindor or the slytherin boy who could see the thestrals is the half-blood prince.Or may be this prince is some eminent person like Nicholas Flamel. In PS we come to know a lot of things about Flamel, but never actually meet him, perhaps this HBP is that sort of character.

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Frank Kempken - Jul 6, 2004 5:29 am (#477 of 2923)

It is certainly not "you know how". Mrs. Rowling made that clear. Seamus Finnigan - indeed! Even in the first movie they made that very clear. But would you call him a "prince"? There is however apparently a legend:

"From a book called The Hawk of May, I gathered that the Irish were wonderful horsemen. This book was about Gwalchmai, an Irish prince who became a warrior in King Arthur's court." (quote from another internet site not related to Harry Potter)

This Gwalchmai seems to be identical with Gawain.

Further info:

"William of Malmsbury says, that during the reign of William the Conqueror (A.D. 1086) the tomb of Gwalchmai, or Walwen, as he calls him, was discovered on the sea-shore, in a certain province of Wales called Rhos, which is understood to be that still known by the same name, in the county of Pembroke, where there is a district called in Welsh Castell Gwalchmai, and in English Walwyn's Castle."

Yet another legend: "Besides these there went also on the quest Gwrhyr, who knew all tongues, and Gwalchmai son of Arthur's sister Gwyar, and Menw, who could make the party invisible by magic spells."

Interesting, isn´t it? Would Seamus Finnegan be a descent of this legendary knight (with magical powers?). He may be related to this via his mother.

If so, one may speculate that Seamus will help Harry on an important task, as did Gwalchmai to King Arthur.

Best regards Frank

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Frank Kempken - Jul 6, 2004 6:30 am (#478 of 2923)

Some additions to my earlier mail:

FINNEGAN m Usage: English Pronounced: FIN-e-gan From the Irish surname Ó Fionnagáin, which means "descendent of Fionnagán". The name Fionnagán is a pet form of FIONN.

FIONN Means "fair" or "white" in Gaelic. Fionn mac Cumhail was a legendary Irish hero who became all-wise by eating an enchanted salmon. He fought against the giant Fomors with his son Oisin and grandson Oscar.

Yes, its Finnigan not Finnegan, but it is very close and certainly these names are related. The only problem being, that his father is a muggle. Would a muggle male take his wifes name? I do not know.

Nevertheless, Seamus Finnegan may be related to some legend prince.

Of course, this is all speculation. But as I mentioned earlier, in the movie Seamus did tell the story of his parents. Why do so, if not being an important clue?

I am interested to hear your comments on my hypothesis.

best Frank

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Fawkes Forever - Jul 6, 2004 6:48 am (#479 of 2923)

Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Hey Frank, Finnegan & Finnigan are treated as the same name, the spelling just got a bit mixed up when the the name was anglicised. It's quite possible that Seamus could be descended from an old Irish royal family. In ancient Ireland there were several kingdoms, five at one stage (I think) Ulster, Munster, Leinster, Connaght & the most famous Tara... where the 'high king' presised. Indeed Ireland is still divided up into 4 provinces according to the ancient kingdoms (excluding Tara). I'm afraid my knowledge of Irish legends & history isn't what it should be.... my teacher was a bit like Binns.... & I 'tuned out' for many of my Irish history classes....

It's quite an interesting theory....

Interesting to note... Fionn Mac Cumhail (Finn Mac Cool) was a giant

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haymoni - Jul 6, 2004 6:50 am (#480 of 2923)

For those of you who think the HBP is Mark Evans - check the Poll on the JKR website!

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Cuivienen - Jul 6, 2004 7:20 am (#481 of 2923)

I guess that means the Mark Evans thread is officially dead. At least we won't be expostulating about him for the next 6+ months.

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mike miller - Jul 6, 2004 7:21 am (#482 of 2923)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
It would seem that JKR has squashed more than one theory in answering the Mark Evans question. I know I've read in several places that Madame Marsh has a key role to play. I guess her only role will be that of spokesperson for Dr. Willie's Motion Sickness Preventative Potion.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 6, 2004 7:46 am (#483 of 2923)

I've read in several places that Madame Marsh has a key role to play. I guess her only role will be that of spokesperson for Dr. Willie's Motion Sickness Preventative Potion. -- Mike Miller

I notice that too Mike. I'm actually quite perturbed at the moment. Didn't she say she was headed to Bolivia to go into hiding? But maybe that's just a "red herring." Smile

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TGF - Jul 6, 2004 9:53 am (#484 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Well, so much for Mark Evans. He was really the prime candidate put forth here. The casual way she mentioned the 'heir of Gryiffindor' theory among all the other silly things tells me that she doesn't subscribe to that idea either. Which is good, if you ask me, because I've never liked that idea one bit.

Evans was probably the strongest candidate for the title. Since he's officially a 'nobody' now, I think what we're going to get is a new character as the Prince, as I suspected before.

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Warty Harris - Jul 6, 2004 12:49 pm (#485 of 2923)

she does protest too much in that answer.

Really I didn't like the whole Mark Evans thing anyway. It doesn't make sense.

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Peregrine - Jul 6, 2004 1:48 pm (#486 of 2923)

Whew, 100+ posts in an hour and my mind has changed about 70 times.

I'm liking Nearly Headless Nick at the moment. Mainly because we learn a lot about him in CoS and because of his last scene with Harry in OoP--in fact, he and Harry have a couple nice moments together...maybe there will be more.

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Cuivienen - Jul 6, 2004 2:24 pm (#487 of 2923)

Nearly Headless Nick can't be a prince -- he's already given a title, "Sir" (Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington). Of course, anything making him out to be the HBP is still obscure enough for discussion.

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koala marpusial - Jul 6, 2004 2:35 pm (#488 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
im leaning towarts godric at the moment

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Green Eyes - Jul 6, 2004 2:54 pm (#489 of 2923)

Going back to whole Godric Gryffindor thing...I just posted this same thing on the Heir of Gryffindor thread...

Ozy...I don't think that Ginny is the heir, I think that the Weasley's are blood descendants of Godric Gryffindor...I think that Harry is the heir but not a blood descendant...this would explain why all the Weasleys are in Gryffindor...plus Arthur's obsession with all things Muggle hints at the tolerance for non pure bloods that Gryffindor (as well as Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw) had that caused the breach with Slytherin.

Harry CHOSE not to go into the house that best seemed to suit his nature (Slytherin - according to the sorting hat). This act - denying his natural tendency - took alot of courage which I think is the thing that will ultimately make him able to defeat Voldemort. It takes one to know one if you get my meaning...Plus the symbolism in the chamber scene in COS hints that Harry will defeat Voldemort (the snake) with the courage of Gryffindor (the sword) perhaps using some aspect of Voldemort's essence (the fang) to do him in...turning a quality in Voldemort against Voldemort and I might add will almost cause Harry to die but of course, he won't.

Now would Harry have been a natural Slytherin without Voldemort's attack on him and the transferring of powers to him? Who knows? How he will ultimately defeat Voldemort remains to be seen as well...

As for Ginny...I think she is the way that Harry will actually become a part of the Gryffindor bloodline...thru marriage and their children. I do think she has information from Tom Riddle's possession of her that will help Harry and thus she is very important to the story. For her to be heir isn't likely but then again it wouldn't completely surprise me. Harry doesn't have to be the heir of Gryffindor, he is the "One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." They don't have to be the same.

After saying all that we could just be thinking WAY too much and it'll be something completely different.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 6, 2004 3:18 pm (#490 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 6, 2004 3:27 pm
With the update of JKR's site, we have one possibility down, and 872,534 to go. In an effort to narrow the field down by one more, I will try to disprove the Riddle is not Voldemort and hence can be the HBP theory. It won't work since most of this has been said already and the Riddle supporters keep on trucking. Still, I thought I'd try.

When Dobby said he gave Harry a clue, he said "It was not he-who must not be named". This is a world of difference from Voldemort which JKR uses in saying Voldemort is not the HBP. In CoS, Riddle tells Harry that before he put himself in the diary, he already called himself Voldemort. However, he had not yet been called He who must not be named (Hwmnbn for short). Imagine if time and reality go along a line. At the point where Riddle put himself in the diary, the line split into two. One line represents the path of the real Riddle, the other his diary self. The real Voldemort went on to become Hwmnbn. However, the diary Riddle didn't. It was the diary Riddle who was behind the danger at Hogwarts. He could be named, whether it was his friends calling him Voldemort (Voldie to his closest friends) or teachers calling him Riddle. That was how Dobby's clue worked, because the diary Riddle split from the real riddle before he could not be named. Look at my bad ascii drawing below.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.......... Diary Riddle
OOOOOOOOOOOOOO/
OOOOOOOOOOOOOO/
Riddle..........Voldie........../.............HWMNBN

HWMNBN is not on diary Riddle's path, so he is not HWMNBN. That came after the split.

For us to be talking about the HBP being Riddle, but not Voldemort, Riddle would have had to acquire the moniker HBP before he became Voldemort but after a different split in the line. For example, let's go back to the split Dobby referenced. LEt's say when Riddle was a baby, his mother for the brief time she had him, called him Little Tommikins. Both the diary Riddle and the present Hwmnbn would share the name as it was part of their common background. So if Riddle was born HBP, they would both share the name as common background.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.......... Diary Riddle
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO/
OOOOOOOOOOOOOO/
HBP............Voldie.........../............HWMNBN

They both share HBP. So if Diary Tom was HBP, so would HWMNBN Voldemort. The only way they would not share the names Voldemort and HBP is if Riddle put another version of himself in a diary before assuming the name Voldemort (since that is what JKR said) and before picking up the HBP moniker. So some other diary version of Riddle would be the HBP. That is a long, long stretch since he probably would not have had the power before he did.

Hope this made sense and at least convinced a few people that Riddle is most likely out. I am shutting my ears to any more Riddle speculation. 872,533 to go.

EDIT: Fixed Ascii drawing. O's represent blank space otherwise it got formatted automatically.

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PKchopper - Jul 6, 2004 4:01 pm (#491 of 2923)

I going to step way out on a limb and say the HBP is Hagrid and because of his “royalty” the giants will switch allegiance from LV (this assumes he is able to court their allegiance in the first place) to (who..hhmmm) HP for lack of a label for the good side.

No I don’t believe it but I’m jumping on the train since my Mark Evans train derailed while still in the station.

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 6, 2004 7:06 pm (#492 of 2923)

Wandless Wizard, Good explanation! I'm gonna say one more thing that I think I cought in your post.. or just got confused by LoL

[They both share HBP. So if Diary Tom was HBP, so would HWMNBN Voldemort. The only way they would not share the names Voldemort and HBP is if Riddle put another version of himself in a diary before assuming the name Voldemort (since that is what JKR said) and before picking up the HBP moniker. So some other diary version of Riddle would be the HBP. That is a long, long stretch since he probably would not have had the power before he did.] <--The Wandless Wizard

Just assuming that this could have happened, if created the 'other' diary, then picked up the name Voldie, he would not be able to take the title of HBP without being both HBP and Voldie at some point. Also, if we switch it around and say that he took the HBP title first, then he would not be able to later become Voldie for the same reason. If it were to happen either way, he'd still end up at some point in time being both Voldie and the HBP. So from the information JKR gave us, this only possible way for these names/identities to not be shared by the same person is actually not so possible after all.

Hope that helps out. As you can probably tell I'm not really a supporter of the Riddle is HBP theory either^_^!

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 6, 2004 7:57 pm (#493 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 6, 2004 7:58 pm
I think you got the main idea of it Stareyed. There is only one possible way for a version of Riddle to not have the names Voldemort and HBP on his resume, so to speak, and it is a highly doubtful proposition. If, when Riddle was a kid, before even coming to Hogwarts, there was a different split (before the diary). Let's call this new version of Riddle, "Kid Riddle". "Kid Riddle" is able to live free of a diary and picks up the name HBP. The real Riddle goes on to pick up Voldemort and HWMNBN. Kid Riddle, as a seperate entity, never picks up the new names. See the seperate entities share each other's past, but not what happens after the split. So only "kid Riddle" can be the HBP according to what JKR said and wrote. This is all so strange, confusing and repetitive, there is no way JKR would use it.

I am glad you understood most of what I was trying to get at Stareyed. Hopefully this clarifies things further.

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 6, 2004 8:02 pm (#494 of 2923)

Yes it helps a lot^_^! And it is very doubtful. That probably wouldn't exactly be the type of magic that a kid that age would be able to use.

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 6, 2004 8:04 pm (#495 of 2923)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Maybe, just maybe, is this Half-blood prince a prophesied character who is not a contemporary of Harry? If it is related to CoS, then heritage was an important theme. Perhaps it is sort of a explanation as to why Voldy and Harry came to be bound in this particular manner. The HBP could be the very root of these wars and the cause of everything that has come to be. JKR stated on the site that after books 6 and 7 we will have all the back story we need(Q and A section). This HBP could be the manner in which she gives the back story. In Chambers, HRH were constantly looking for the history of the CoS and the Heir of Syltherin. Since it appears that we all agree that since HBP could have been the name of CoS, perhaps that is the link?

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Hollywand - Jul 6, 2004 8:07 pm (#496 of 2923)

Gryffindor
I'm hoping we don't have to buy the entire Lexicon a butterbeer if we predict incorrectly, but here's my two knuts: Godric sounds like the most plausible candidate to me as I am associating with St Godric, who is associated with saving a hart (stag) from hunters, and would make a nice connection themeatically to the images used in the story.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 6, 2004 8:15 pm (#497 of 2923)

The thing about it possibly being Tom Riddle, Jr. is that diary Tom was sixteen at the time he made the diary. At one point, he was a baby, a toddler, and a small child. He said that Voldemort was his past, present, and future, but he doesn't say his past from birth, from being a toddler, or from being a small child. It could be his past just from when he discovered he was related to Salazar Slytherin.

Also, JKR said we'd learn more about the circumstances surrounding his birth in the sixth book

I'm not completely and totally stuck on this theory, but I can certainly see it working. The Half-Blood Prince could be pretty much anyone and anything, including someone we've met, someone we've yet to meet, a myth or legend, an object such as a book, or anything else anyone on the Forum could come up with.

I just can't completely discount the Riddle theory.

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JasonS - Jul 6, 2004 8:35 pm (#498 of 2923)

Student/Harry Fan
I think the HBP is going to be like GoF and OoTP, just a side part to a bigger story. The Goblet actually had a small part and really, so did the order.

I think the, now don't hate me, Half Blood Prince will be like an epitath or a title everyone will start referring to Dumbledore after his death. I think it will become a catchphrase to honor him.

My reasons: Time after time people refer to DD as a headmaster who allowed students in not based on heritage but based on talent, Neville, Lupin, Hagrid, etc. Voldemort himself refers to DD as the champion of half bloods, or something along those lines. There is also a huge rift between the MoM and DD after GoF because of DD's insistence that You-Know-Who was back, and part of that was because of Fudge's insistence not to listen to certain people.

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almightykneazle33 - Jul 6, 2004 10:12 pm (#499 of 2923)

I am the Almighty Kneazle. Do not ask questions.
OoOoOo Jason, that's a really creepy thought.. and yet, a truly plausable one as well. Wouldn't that be an evil thing of JKR to end HBP with Dumbledore dying. Don't even bother with all of that getting off the train end of the school year thing. Just, Dumbledore is dead. Gone, forever. Imagine the consequences of that. That's a REALLY good idea Jason.. though not one I quite want to happen, if you get my drift!!

``--the almighty kneazle--``

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 6, 2004 10:30 pm (#500 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 6, 2004 10:31 pm
The Wandless Wizard covers eyes as he skips Weeney Owl's post and says loudly:
"I disproved the Riddle theory. I did, I did, I did disprove the Riddle theory."

Moving on, I don't think DD could die at the end and have HBP be his epitaph. GoF might of played a minor role in Book 4, but it colored everything that happened. The great mystery was how Harry's name got in the GoF and how it picked 4 champions. So even though we only saw it for about 2-3 pages, it pervaded the story. Same with the OotP. Harry was only at the Order headquarters for a couple of chapters, but he was constantly wondering what they were up to. Plus I do not think JKR was considering killing DD at the end of CoS. HBP was an early title for that, so unless it had another usage there, it won't be DD's name in death.

My new theory is that the HBP will run against Lucius Malfoy for the Minister of Magic spot. Fudge will be weakened. Lucius will use that weakness to say Fudge framed him and the other DEs. Fudge will be forced to step down. Lucius, having been cleared in the controversy, will try to run for head of MoM using his money and influence. Dumbledore will still refuse to run. However, the HBP will step up to run (no idea who he is). So it will be a a battle of Half-bloods vs. pure-bloods played out on the political stage. This will of course all be backdrop for whatever happens at Hogwarts, and not the main issue. But it will eek into Hogwart's life as students divide over who they want as minister..

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HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05) Empty HP6: the Half Blood Prince (Jun 04-Mar 05) (Post 501 to 550)

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:37 am

koala marpusial - Jul 6, 2004 10:36 pm (#501 of 2923)
are you from new zealand?
dude you still have time to hop onto the godric train before being labeled as a front-runner... do it!

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Gemini12602 - Jul 6, 2004 11:07 pm (#502 of 2923)

Hi, I'm new here. I've been reading through this thread for the last few days and heres what I believe.

I thought for awhile it had something to do with Mark Evans, but now that we have found out that he is nothing important, I believe it is Gordic Gryffindor. For some reason it just makes sense to me. Maybe the early CoS contained alot more information about him, and maybe gave more reasoning to why Harry was able to pull the sword out of his hat. So it could have been called HBP because technically the HBP helped Harry defeat Riddle.

I think in the next book all the information about Gordic will come out and we will find that he was the HBP. Maybe, just maybe... Harry will have to use the sword he pulled from the hat to aid in killing Voldemort, or for some other purpose we will find out. I haven't seen much about the sword, and I think it could be very possible that it will be needed in the final fight between Harry and Voldemort.

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Madam Poppy - Jul 7, 2004 1:34 am (#503 of 2923)

Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Jul 7, 2004 1:37 am
Weeny Owl....you can just hop on the Riddle Bus with me.

(I looked all over for a train...the next best thing was a bus)

Poppy

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Laurelin - Jul 7, 2004 6:52 am (#504 of 2923)

The Wandless Wizard wrote: My new theory is that the HBP will run against Lucius Malfoy for the Minister of Magic spot. Fudge will be weakened. Lucius will use that weakness to say Fudge framed him and the other DEs. Fudge will be forced to step down. Lucius, having been cleared in the controversy, will try to run for head of MoM using his money and influence.

Forgive me, but imo, there is absolutely NO WAY how Lucius Malfoy could get his name cleared this time, how would Fudge have him framed anyhow? No, Lucius will probably not stay in Askaban for long, but that's only because the Dementors are gone and the prisoners won't have a hard time escaping... As far as I can see it, his reputation in the wizarding world has been ruined!

I cannot see Hagrid as the HBP, what would his use be? ... and I do not believe in "Giant Royalty" with giants it's the strongest who rules... full stop... no self-respecting giant would follow Hagrid just because of his heritage (if indeed he has some of importance).

For the time and until we get more information I think I'll stand by my two initial thoughts that the HBP refers to either Godric Gryffindor himself or to Dumbledore. Smile Those two just make the most sense for me (GG even a little more if it's a "real title", if however it's a "honorary title" (of whatever colour and intention), I'd go with AD) Smile

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 7, 2004 7:41 am (#505 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
First off, I'll be the first to admit my theories are a little extreme, but I like them that way. I don't support any of them as being the most probable. But they are fun to come up with. So now let me defend this one as possible.

You got me. Lucius was caught red handed. But what was he caught red-handed doing. He was in the MoM after hours, you say. Well he had some business with a MoM official who will testify to that (testimony bought and paid for). He saw some children in the MoM and went to look for them. On the way he met some other people (Crabbe, Goyle, any other DE's who were not escapees from Azkaban). They came along to help him look.

He attacked the children, you say. Well he is not really sure what happened, but he never attacked the children. He asked the children what they were doing and to please leave as DoM was dangerous. Then the children started attacking him (shattering prophesies). He ran, but some of the children were ruthless. He's afraid for his own survival, he may have used a nasty hex on one of them (on Hemione). The rest just messed with things in the DoM they shouldn't have and got hurt (Ron).

He was captured with known death eaters, you say. Well as he was trying to leave, all of thge sudden, several fully grown wizards attacked him. They were probably helping the children steal something. Then he had to fight for his life. Eventually some aurors came with some other wizards. In the confusion, the aurors started attacking him as well as the other wizards. Finally Dumbledore came and roped him and the others up. All the while, he was the one who had been attacked. He just got lumped in with the wrong group.

But he was in league with Voldemort, you say. No, no, no. He knows nothing about that. He was tied up when Fudge reportedly saw Voldemort. In fact, the other wizards who attacked him were probably in league with Voldemort. He saw the vile Sirius Black among them. And the MoM has long known Black has been in league with Voldemort. In fact, DD even admits Sirius was there and fell through the veil. No, poor Lucius was an innocent victim in all this. Wrong place at the wrong time. Although, a better Minister of Magic would prevent mere school children from breaking into the DoM and stealing secrets. And the Death eaters he had been captured with. How did they get free and loose? No, he thinks that Fudge was just trying to make up for his mistakes by lumping a well respected wizard like himself with death eaters. Especially since not all the escapees were caught (Bellatrix).

So you see, there is no evidence Lucius did anything wrong. Asked why he was there, he can bribe someone to give him a reason. Ask Harry and co why they were there and they'll tell you it was to rescue a known supporter of Voldemort. And the reality is, the Death Eaters never did attack first, except Bellatrix who conveniently escaped. It's not like they have video survelience at the ministry. So instead of asking how can Lucius get out of this jam, ask yourself what evidence, aside form the word of a few kids, showed Lucius doing anything illegal. Kingsley Shacklebolt didn't exactly stop to ask Lucius whose side he was on as he was shooting hexes at him.

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Ridcully - Jul 7, 2004 7:45 am (#506 of 2923)

Greetings Salutations and Other Large Words that mean Hello!

I'm amazed that I seem to be the first person to notice this.

Others seem to have been dancing around the idea.

Weeny Owl - Jul 6, 2004 8:15 pm (#497 of 504) The Half-Blood Prince could be pretty much anyone and anything, including someone we've met, someone we've yet to meet, a myth or legend, an object such as a book, or anything else anyone on the Forum could come up with.

Fawkes Forever - Jul 2, 2004 7:01 am (#364 of 504) Now I may be wrong... but isn't there something in Arthurian legend about when at a time of great peril, when Britain no longer has a leader Arthur & the knights of the round table will return to lead the country. I could be inventing this.... but I'm sure I read it somewhere (how very Hermione of me )! We know JK likes to borrow from legends... she might adapt this to be a HBP instead. We know that she has already included Merlin in the magical world of HP, so why not this legend?

To true Fawkes Forever, to true indeed. But you thought it was King Arthur.

As my theory as to the identity of the HBP, I give you the text of Merlin's Chocolate Frog Card:

Merlin Charms Specialist Medieval, dates unknown Most famous wizard of all time. Sometimes known as the Prince of Enchanters. Part of the Court of King Arthur. (King Arthur once ruled the land that is now part of England.) Merlin wanted wizards to help Muggles, so he created the Order of Merlin. The Order made rules against using magic on Muggles.

PRINCE of Enchanters. Only actual reference to a Prince I've ever read. It'd be awfully clever to hide the hint on a Chocolate Frog Card. Much like Nicolas Flamel, the other instance of a historical character having a direct effect on the plot.

Not sure what it means, but it seems highly significant to me.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 7, 2004 7:52 am (#507 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Wandless Wizard. Two words. Priori Incantatem.

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Peregrine - Jul 7, 2004 7:53 am (#508 of 2923)

I can't remember, does JKR write the Chocolate Frog cards? Are they considered canon?

Edited to add: Prefect Marcus, thirteen words: One of those horrid children got my wand and used it against me.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 7, 2004 7:56 am (#509 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Prefect Marcus, I don't have my book on me, but did Lucius perform any unforgivable curses? Otherwise, he was just trying to defend himself form the children and then the death eaters and then the Aurors. All self-defense.

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Ridcully - Jul 7, 2004 7:56 am (#510 of 2923)

Peregrine - Jul 7, 2004 7:53 am (#508 of 508) I can't remember, does JKR write the Chocolate Frog cards? Are they considered canon?

Yup. Written by her.

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Laurelin - Jul 7, 2004 8:22 am (#511 of 2923)

Wandless Wizard, Very Happy I think that with Fudge having lost all his credibility in the Wizarding World his "friends" (and among them one can certainly count L. Malfoy and they didn't try to hide that friendship!) will also be carefully examined... there is just too much evidence against Malfoy than he could be getting off with such a shady excuse, plus there are too many witnesses... weren't there also Kingsley S. and Tonks, two Aurors, at the DoM that night? (that's a rethorical question! I know they were there... Very Happy ) Even if some people will not believe Lupin's evidence (silly prejudices!) Dumbledore's word will count for much now also, after all, it's become clear now that he's told the truth the whole year. I think there will be no doubts as to Malfoys guilt. Smile

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Diagon Nilly - Jul 7, 2004 8:38 am (#512 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 7, 2004 8:41 am
For anyone who wants to, you can hop on the "we don't know yet" applewagon with TGF, Lowly Worm and myself. Beep beep, coming through!

PS-It took me anout a dozen attempts to get this picture up!

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 7, 2004 9:06 am (#513 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Laurelin - As I said in my post, the aurors showed up late in the game. I mentioned Kingsley by name in my last post. All the Aurors saw was Lucius trying to protect himself from people attacking him. They didn't see him talk to Voldemort or illegally breaking into the MoM or ordering the death eaters after the kids. My flimsey excuse accounts for what they saw.

DD's word has only improved with Fudge, and the Dailey Prophet through Fudge. The average Daily Prophet reading wizard who didn't see Voldie back has no more reason to trust DD if they no longer trust Fudge. People haven't believed DD all this time. They are going to believe him now because Fudge is suddenly in on this crazy scheme. JKR has said there will be a new minister of magic in book 6, so Fudge is currently not the world's most well-respected wizard. Lucius could claim he was never friends with Fudge, only a concerned wizard trying to help the MoM.

Remember, you are seeing everything from Harry's perspective. The average wizard and the average MoM employee does not get that luxury. The excuse may be flimsy, but the evidence against Lucius is even flimsier when heard from an impartial outside person.

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Laurelin - Jul 7, 2004 9:34 am (#514 of 2923)

Oh I think pretty soon all "average wizards" will believe that Voldemort is back... there is no more reason why they should be hiding any longer... The "War" has started, there will be deaths and other strange ongoings... no way people could "pretend and explain" them away. As for the "Aurors seeing Lucius defending himself"... well, that's the Aurors from the Order, right? (If I forget s.th. here then please forgive me...) So Kingsley and Tonks would NEVER testify in Lucius' favour. Smile .... and do not forget: Even though he was cleared 15 or so years ago... Lucius had already once been accused of being a DE... a bit much to see him once again in that kind of situation and still believing that he's only a poor victim of circumstances. Very Happy

Sorry, I do not understand what you're saying about "DD's word improving with Fudge, and the Dailey Prophet through Fudge." :? Maybe I am a bit tired? Imo, the average wizard reading the DP will recognize he's been lied at for a year, if not after having read the reprinted "Quibbler"-interview, then probably after they receive their "instructions" from the MoM or at the latest when they see the first Dark Mark over a house of a victim.

BTW: Aren't we awfully "Off Topic"....lol ? maybe this would fit better in some other thread. Smile

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mike miller - Jul 7, 2004 9:48 am (#515 of 2923)

aka The Barmy Old Codger
What a wonderful string of post!

Madame Poppy - Please make sure I have a seat on the Riddle bus! So long as there are memories within Voldemort of before he knew about magic or the Dark Arts, there is still a young, innocent boy hiding deep inside his psyche.

Gemini - Godric Gryffindor is my second choice. Creating a parallel to CoS would be interesting and it would be quite easy to see where backstory related to the Godric/Salazaar split was the part lifted from CoS.

Wandless Wizard - Lucius Malfoy has made his choice and will now have to live with the consequences.

Ricully - Very interesting theory. I'm not ready to put Merlin as my #3 choice, but it could lead to some very interesting plot twists.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 7, 2004 9:57 am (#516 of 2923)

I never really thought about the possibility of Merlin before. It definately sounds like its possible, but all we know about Merlin is that he has an award/recognition with his name attached to it. I still feel strongly about Gordic. Right now its the only thing that makes sense to me... and I want to know more about that sword and if it will be used again!

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MrsGump - Jul 7, 2004 10:19 am (#517 of 2923)

Lucius can not denounce LV AGAIN and live to tell the tale. Remember, Voldemort wasn't too happy with him at the graveyard in GoF, and he'd had 13 years to cool off. Malfoy is going to have to clam up and wait to be rescued by the other DE (which will be quick and maybe the reason for the shortest stay at privat drive)

I'm climbing on the apple cart with Diagon Nilly and TFG, I don't think we have enough clues to really guess yet. I've been trying to come up with some reasonable guess that's not filled with holes and I can't.

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Eponine - Jul 7, 2004 10:26 am (#518 of 2923)

'thumbs a ride on the apple wagon'

I was convinced that Mark Evans had something to do with the HBP, but JKR cut that theory to shreds, so I'm going to go with it being a previously unseen character.

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mooncalf - Jul 7, 2004 11:11 am (#519 of 2923)

Oh, I don't know. Voldie didn't call Lucius "my slippery friend" for nothing. I think that if anyone could worm his way out of this, it's Lucius. And Voldie knows that Mr. Malfoy is far more use to him out of Azkaban than in.

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DJ Evans - Jul 7, 2004 11:31 am (#520 of 2923)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Wow, I go off to write up my theory and mega posts are waiting for me!! I see where some of you have mentioned parts of my theory, so there seems to more than just myself thinking along the same lines.

I must admit that I never really warmed up to the idea of the HbP being Mark Evans & I really can’t say why. Similarly, I can’t quite go along with the thinking that the title character is Hagrid, though I have no particular reason for this either, just something doesn’t “feel” right there. But I’ve been giving the mystery of the HbP thought, just as many of you have, and though I’m still not set on any one person, the closest one I think that fits the title of HbP is none other than Albus Dumbledore. And believe it or not, but an old episode of “The Twilight Zone” I saw yesterday afternoon is what triggered the thought. In the episode, an old man just can’t accept getting old and comes to the conclusion that when a child stops playing games, he begins to age; he starts to get old. In trying to explain this to his friend, he makes this statement: “...maybe the Fountain of Youth isn’t a fountain at all. Maybe it’s a way of looking at things; a way of thinking.”

Hmm… Maybe it is a way of looking at things/a way of thinking? Perhaps some of those in the Wizarding World look upon DD as the champion of the Half Bloods. Look at Hagrid, a Half Blood, for an example. Dumbledore has given him many chances, important jobs, and several opportunities that no one else would have even considered offering him. Even McGonagall doubts DD’s judgment when he has Hagrid rescue Harry from Godric’s Hollow, “You think it – wise – to trust Hagrid with something as important as this?” Now take Lupin, another Half Blood, who was denied schooling, work, and rights, because of who he is. Yet again, Dumbledore made it possible for Lupin to get an education; he even gave him a job as Professor, though he understood that if the student’s parents were to find out, they would be incensed. And don’t forget how many times DD has helped Harry, himself a Half Blood. So by his actions, I can see where others would “look” upon DD as a Champion for the Half Bloods. Why, even Voldemort acknowledges Dumbledore as “the champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles.” Purity of blood is a major part of CoS, and I feel will be a major part in HbP as well. After all, aren’t Mudbloods and Half Bloods in the same vein? As the old man from the Twilight Zone episode said, “maybe it is a way of looking at things/a way of thinking” Could the wizarding community be looking upon DD as the Prince of Half Bloods; acknowledging him as their Half Blood Prince, perchance?

Even more clues that point to DD as the Half Blood Prince can be found in CoS when Lucius is escorting DD from Hagrid’s cabin (after getting him kicked out of Hogwarts). DD responds with the following statement: "You will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." (Paperback, USA, CoS, page 263-264). This just seems to me a statement that a Prince would make to his subjects; a statement that would show them that they’ve got his support as long as they support him. Later on in the book when Harry is down in the Chamber and he and Tom are having their conversation, Harry states: "...but the greatest wizard in the world is Albus Dumbledore." (Paperback, USA, CoS, page 314) From that one “small” comment, Harry has proven his loyalty to DD and is given all the help that he needs--Fawkes brings him the Sorting Hat with Gryffindor’s sword.

We know that the working title for CoS was HbP. So, when I first heard what book 6 was going to be named, I remembered a JKR/Steve Kloves interview from the CoS DVD in which JKR says: “Yeah, I've told Steve probably more than I would because see he needs to know. And it's been incredibly annoying because he says "Well shall we cut that off", or "I wanted to do this" and I say, "Well no... Because... you know in Book Six... something will happen and you'll need that in" or "that'll contradict something that happens" and I can feel him on the end of the emails, you know, just screaming "er...you...won't...telll...meee...wwhhyy.." So I have told him things! But he's very good at guessing, too. He's guessed more straightly than anyone else.” During that same interview, another mention is made about the connection between CoS and another book (HbP, perhaps?) by Steve: “Well, I will suggest to Jo... "You do seem to shine a bit more light on this one than the other details..." and sometimes I'm wrong but often she'll nod and say "Yes, that is going to play out." and there's one thing in Chamber that Jo indicated will play later in the series.....”

With this bit of information given by JKR and Steve, and from the books themselves, could we gather that DD might be the HbP? And from that, could we formulate that DD was letting Harry (and in effect, all Half Bloods) know that in the days to come he might not be around anymore? Yet Harry will only need to remember that he “will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it.", DD. Though DD wasn’t there in the Chamber (or may not be around much longer for all we know), it was Harry’s loyalty to him that gave that half blood the help he needed to defeat the Basilisk. So will it be the help and guidance of the Half Blood Prince (DD) that will liberate and acknowledge all half bloods everywhere?

hmmmmmmm, worth thinking about at least, don't you think?

Later, Deb

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aberforth dumbledore's #1 fan - Jul 7, 2004 12:11 pm (#521 of 2923)

That sounds like a good theory. P.S. I saw that episode too!

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almightykneazle33 - Jul 7, 2004 12:32 pm (#522 of 2923)

I am the Almighty Kneazle. Do not ask questions.
Good theory DJ! The only problem I have with your theory is that its the Half-Blood Prince, not the Prince of the Half-Bloods. There is a difference, subtle as it is.

I like yours too, Wandless Wizard! Hmm, I never really thought about Lucius before.. well, actually, I did, but I quickly dismissed the theory. I do believe that you have something there, Wandless, but I don't think that Lucius is the HBP. He's too concerned with the purity of blood, and too public a figure to keep that sort of thing a secret for long!

``--the almighty kneazle-``

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Kwikspell - Jul 7, 2004 1:11 pm (#523 of 2923)

Marketers? Bah!
My rear end is firmly in the apple wagon, but I've got a toe in the Godric-mobile. The big feud between Godric and Salazar with backstories of both characters would fit in perfectly in the 2nd book, and I'm sure JKR had to cut it out due to length (this was before PoA and GoF when publishers realized that kids of all ages will read books longer--much longer--than then usual 200 pages). Can't you just hear Salazar taunting Godric by calling him the Half-Blood Prince (after their big disagreement)?

STILL, I'm not sure I'm willing to say that the HBP IS Godric, just that he's going to figure prominently in the 6th book.

I'm not too jazzed about the idea of "the heir of Gryffindor" because it just seems too...umm, contrived, I guess. At the same time, I can't deny that there does seem to be a long-running war raging between members of the two houses, so if Slytherin were to have an heir... Urg. I can't say it. Suffice it to say, that I don't think "heir" necessarily means blood relation--it just worked out that way for Tom Riddle. In legal terms, you designate an heir to your estate and if you don't pick one, it falls to your relations. (Sorry, I rarely mix business with pleasure, but it's an important distinction to me.) In the same vein, I'm not sure "Prince" refers to actual royalty, which I still think clears the way for Hagrid to be Half-Blood Prince of the Beasts. ('Cause if my rear is in the apple wagon and my toe is in the Godric-mobile, my heart is definitely in Hagrid's VW Beatle.)

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DJ Evans - Jul 7, 2004 1:16 pm (#524 of 2923)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
almightykneazle33: The only problem I have with your theory is that its the Half-Blood Prince, not the Prince of the Half-Bloods. There is a difference, subtle as it is.

Maybe you misunderstood me or I didn't make myself clear enough in my post earlier. But at the end of the 3rd paragraph I made the statement, "Could the wizarding community be looking upon DD as the Prince of Half Bloods; acknowledging him as their Half Blood Prince, perchance? I was trying to get across that DD is considered by many as a Prince/Champion among the non Pure Bloods, therefore he could be known as their "Half Blood Prince". Hope that explains it better?

Later, Deb

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haymoni - Jul 7, 2004 1:25 pm (#525 of 2923)

I still think it is Hagrid. I don't think he will try to rule the Giants. I think it is a title left from how things used to be.

Rita Skeeter names his mother Fridwulfa like every wizard on the planet should know who she is. It just seems an odd phrasing - "his mother is none other than the giantess Fridwulfa".

I'll even take things a step further - I'm guessing Hagrid doesn't even know who he is. Which makes his comment to Harry - "You don't even know who you are??" a bit ironic.

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popkin - Jul 7, 2004 1:28 pm (#526 of 2923)

mother
Here's a theory that hasn't been explored yet. I suppose it's because this character doesn't appear in COS, but he could have been removed entirely. Or, JKR could have changed his character slightly to fit him into OotP instead of COS.

According to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The star Regulus, is also known as the Ruler or Lawgiver, or the Heart of the Lion: 'As the brightest star in Leo, Regulus almost always has been universally associated in ancient cultures with the concept of royalty or kingly power.'

The star Regulus is also closely associated with Sirius, the Dog Star. The "Heart of the Lion" sounds like the heir of Gryffindor. Of all the character names JKR has chosen, I think Regulus' name sounds the most regal - and therefore the most likely candidate for the Half Blood Prince, except for one thing. The Blacks are definitely purebloods. So if there is a half blood prince associated with Regulus, I'm going to guess it would be Regulus' son. Regulus has been gone and supposed to be dead (no body has been found, though) for 15 years - plenty of time to marry and have children. It would be a triple shocker for Mrs. Black to have her darling boy return to the roost as a "blood traitor" with a muggle wife and half blood children.

I predict that Sirius' brother, Regulus, will turn up in book six, and Harry will mistake him, at first, for Sirius. Why would Regulus come out of hiding? I don't know. Perhaps book six will revolve around estate disputes between Harry and Regulus' family. But, if Regulus has married a muggle, escaped the Death Eaters, and made a life for himself and his family, I hope he would be an honorable man - instead of a soft idiot. (Isn't that what Sirius called him in the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black chapter?) Maybe he comes back to pay his respects to Sirius, or to take over Sirius role as Harry's godfather. Or, maybe he wants to avenge the death of his brother.

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almightykneazle33 - Jul 7, 2004 1:30 pm (#527 of 2923)

I am the Almighty Kneazle. Do not ask questions.
:-) You're right DJ, I did misunderstand you. I understand now! That is a possibility, and DD is always being called a 'Mudblood or Muggle lover', I can easily see how that 'love' would continue to halfbloods. I'm beginning to like this theory, DJ.....

``-the almighty kneazle--``

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Kwikspell - Jul 7, 2004 1:31 pm (#528 of 2923)

Marketers? Bah!
Deb,

Well argued and well substantiated. And you definitely adhered to my high school English teacher's favorite axiom: "No quotey sourcey, no passy coursey."

Still in the apple wagon, though.

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DJ Evans - Jul 7, 2004 1:42 pm (#529 of 2923)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Awwww shucks, guys--thanks!!! At least my theory/idea hasn't been shot down dead right off the bat there.

Later, Deb

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 7, 2004 1:46 pm (#530 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Haymoni,

You stated my feelings exactly concerning Hagrid. Rita's phrasing was most curious, right down to the fact that Hagrid did not mention his mother's name when he spoke to Madame Maxime. How did Rita find out?

I still think it is someone we've not met yet, but if it does turn out to be someone in CoS, then it is likely Hagrid.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 7, 2004 1:52 pm (#531 of 2923)

I've put in my two cents on it being Hagrid previously. (I think it will be Hagrid.) But I'm curious how the "its someone we haven't met yet crowd" thinks COS plays into HBP? Could it be that HBP's identity and the COS thing that becomes a big deal in Book 6 are just two completely different things?

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 7, 2004 2:42 pm (#532 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Loopy,

I doubt it is anybody we've seen in SS or CoS for the simple reason that we've had three books since CoS. Surely the fact that one of them is a "Half-blood Prince" would have come up by now?

I think it is someone that Rowling first planned to introduce in CoS, but decided it best to wait until HBP.

Let me try to explain it this way:

Something in the sixth book requires A and the HBP. Rowling first thought to put both A and the HBP into the second book, but decided that only A is required for the second book. Introducing the HBP is a bit clumsy in CoS, so the introduction was postponed until the sixth book.

Clear as mud now?

Marcus

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PKchopper - Jul 7, 2004 3:19 pm (#533 of 2923)

Popkin, I really like the idea of Harry mistaking Regulus for Sirius and your idea about the HBP.

However I jumped on the Hagrid train and I can’t get off yet.

And DJ very interesting and convincing but as I stated above, the train has pulled out of the station with the apple cart for a caboose.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 7, 2004 3:29 pm (#534 of 2923)

JKR mentioned in her March chat:

Cathedral: Will we be hearing anything from Sirius Black's brother, Regulus, in future books? JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days.

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Catherine - Jul 7, 2004 4:25 pm (#535 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Marcus began this in the 'Ship thread: Oh where, oh where is the Half Blood Prince? Oh where, oh where can it be? With so many questions To lay to rest, Oh where, oh can it be?

I dunno the answer, so I reply:

JKR knows who the Half Blood Prince Is, Oh yes, oh yes, indeed! But she hides the clues, and will refuse/ to tell us to whom they do lead!

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Anna Osipova - Jul 7, 2004 4:59 pm (#536 of 2923)

JKR was quite blunt with Regulus' death, eh? However, even though perhaps Harry might not have the chance to recognize Regulus as Sirius, perhaps Regulus, before dying, had a son? Well, obviously not right before dying, but you know... I do like that theory, though. Good thinking!

You guys have managed to sway me from all my wild theories to Dumbledore or Regulus' son. I still can't quite jump on the Godric bandwagon yet, although why, I'm not quite sure. I guess I just like the idea that it's someone alive Harry can "interact" with, if you get my meaning.

However, I have just one reason to doubt the Dumbledore theory, and yet even that has been proven... to some extent.

I just can't see Dumbledore as being a prince. A king, perhaps, but not a prince. With all the comments being made that Dumbledore is starting to display signs of aging, it doesn't seem to fit. Although, what someone said (Wandless Wizard, I think, forgive me if I'm wrong) something about the Fountain of Youth being not an actual fountain, but a way of thinking. I suppose it makes sense, but somehow... I don't know.

I know I shouldn't be talking since I don't have any solid evidence to disprove it, but I suppose for now, my doubts alone will have to do, even though it does seem to be the most probable.

One quick question, however. Was Mad-Eye Moody ever mentioned in books one through three? Even a one-liner? I know it doesn't seem to relate to the topic, but I just need that one answer to attempt to disprove something.

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Star Crossed - Jul 7, 2004 5:06 pm (#537 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
No

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koala marpusial - Jul 7, 2004 5:38 pm (#538 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
Look... people... isn't it obvious that it has to be either Salazar or Godric??? If you're a halfblood, then your royalty can be obtained from either side of the family - wizard or muggle... therefore it is very possibly that old royalty from 1000 years ago transferred the title of prince to either salazar, or more likely, GODRIC!!!

go on the godric train or i am 99% sure you will be wrong

--remember to spay and neuter all your marpusials, which include koalas, kangaroos and opossums

thank you

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Anna Osipova - Jul 7, 2004 5:38 pm (#539 of 2923)

Oh. Well then there goes my whole theory that it couldn't be someone new because the people the story revolved around the most has always been previously mentioned. (Quirrel in the Leaky Cauldron, Ginny at the station, Sirius at the introduction in the first book, and the fourth book would have been Moody, then the fifth book, DD mentions to "gather the old crowd").

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Hem Hem - Jul 7, 2004 5:45 pm (#540 of 2923)

None of the DADA teachers as of yet have made any sort of appearance before the book in which they teach.

As for the titles of the books, we have encountered the subjects of the titles prior to their title appearance, but they've never been important. I think this is why it's unlikely that we'll see Hagrid or Dumbledore or Lucius as the HBP -- we already know select information about their backgrounds. It wouldn't be interesting to have a book called "Harry Potter and Hagrid" or "Harry Potter and Malfoy." Of course, calling it "Harry Potter and the HBP" isn't exactly the same thing, but that's the reason why I shy away from those sorts of theories.

I'm riding comfortably on the "It's no one we know" apple-wagon, but I do have some faith in the Gryffindor theory, and the Marvolo Riddle theory. Someone nice and obscure....

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Dumbledore - Jul 7, 2004 5:47 pm (#541 of 2923)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I am riding on the apple wagon as well, however if I had to pick a theory out of characters we already know of, it would be Godric.

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popkin - Jul 7, 2004 5:48 pm (#542 of 2923)

mother
Weeny Owl - Jul 7, 2004 3:29 pm (#534 of 539) JKR mentioned in her March chat:

Cathedral: Will we be hearing anything from Sirius Black's brother, Regulus, in future books? JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days.

Yeah, I read that, but I didn't take it too seriously. If JKR does reintroduce Regulus, she is going to want us to mistake him for Sirius, as well. If we believe him to be alive, then we'll be looking for him. Since no body was found, I don't think he is dead. If Regulus wants everyone (Voldemort and his Death Eaters, especially) to believe he's dead, though, he would be very quiet.

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Dumbledore - Jul 7, 2004 5:50 pm (#543 of 2923)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
JKR wrote the books. Surely she would know if Regulus is indeed dead or not? ;-)

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popkin - Jul 7, 2004 5:51 pm (#544 of 2923)

mother
Edited by Jul 7, 2004 5:55 pm
Yes, she would. But maybe she doesn't want us to know - yet.

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Dumbledore - Jul 7, 2004 5:57 pm (#545 of 2923)

(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I really don't think JK would outrightly lie to us like that. She does joke occasionally (Professor Bicycle, from her website) but I don't think she would not tell the truth when asked a direct question like that.

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colbow - Jul 7, 2004 7:03 pm (#546 of 2923)

I do think JKR would have used a"wait and see" approach instead of saying he is dead. But that said doesn't mean he can't a part in HBP.

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Cuivienen - Jul 7, 2004 7:12 pm (#547 of 2923)

As for the titles of the books, we have encountered the subjects of the titles prior to their title appearance, but they've never been important. I think this is why it's unlikely that we'll see Hagrid or Dumbledore or Lucius as the HBP -- we already know select information about their backgrounds. It wouldn't be interesting to have a book called "Harry Potter and Hagrid" or "Harry Potter and Malfoy." Of course, calling it "Harry Potter and the HBP" isn't exactly the same thing, but that's the reason why I shy away from those sorts of theories.

Of course, we haven't heard AT ALL about some of the titles. Goblet of Fire and Chamber of Secrets (to a lesser extent) had no precent. At least Azkaban and "the old crowd" were mentioned prior to their books.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 7, 2004 7:34 pm (#548 of 2923)

I think JKR gives us accurate answers about things she doesn't think will do any harm to us wondering about the outcome of the books. Regulus being dead for a fact, and us knowing it would not hurt her secrecy of whats coming up in the books. If she would have answered "wait and see" or any other obscure answer then I would say its possible he is still alive. Its kinda like the Mark Evans thing, she did not mind telling us the real answer because she knew it wouldn't affect anything she has in the works... but answering something like "why does Dumbledore trust snape" would ruin part of the storyline for us. So I believe that Regulus is dead, Sirius is dead and I am on the Gordic Gryffindor for the HBP train, or wagon, or whatever other modes of transportation we are taking. How about the Gordic Gryffindor broom or flying carpet? :-D

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The giant squid - Jul 7, 2004 7:42 pm (#549 of 2923)

Right now, my order of the HbP theories is:

1) Apple-cart Wink

2) Godric Gryffindor

3) Dumbledore

As has been said, the subject of the book titles has never been prominent in previous books, which is why DD is so far down. I really liked popkin's Regulus idea until his death was reiterated...

I think I'm gonna haveto bite the bullet, heave a mighty shrug and just wait to be surprised. I have faith in JKR that I won't be disappointed. Smile

--Mike

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Czarina II - Jul 7, 2004 8:08 pm (#550 of 2923)

I'm also climbing into the apple-wagon, or whatever it is. (I loved the picture, whoever put it up! It's cute!) I think we will just have to wait...hopefully by this time next year, we will all have a copy of HbP for the answer!

If it's someone we know already, my guess is Godric Gryffindor also.

I hope the apple is bigger on the inside than it looks on the outside! ;-)

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Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:39 am

Bluenote1313 - Jul 7, 2004 8:45 pm (#551 of 2923)
There is something that has bothered me for a while and since Regulus Black was mentioned I thought I would throw it out. In OotP when Sirius is talking about his family he mentions that his brother was killed by Voldemort, but qualifies it by saying "I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person". Later, at the party before the kids go to school, Mundungus is showing Harry the picture of the original Order and mentions Dorcas Meadows "Voldemort killed her personally". Why was Meadows more important to be killed personally? Regulus was a member of a noble pure blood family that supported him, yet when he changed his mind, he was good enough to be killed personally? Maybe Miss Meadows has a son somewhere?

I know this might be a stretch, but its someone mentioned in passing, with a history with Voldemort and we know how much JKR likes to use those character (Sirius, Peter, Figg, etc)

Oh...an my personal opinion is that Regulus IS still alive. That story about the witch having dinner with Sirius the night the Potters died is just TOO convenient. I think it was Regulus and he is in hiding.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 7, 2004 8:59 pm (#552 of 2923)

Bluenote1313 - Oh...an my personal opinion is that Regulus IS still alive. That story about the witch having dinner with Sirius the night the Potters died is just TOO convenient. I think it was Regulus and he is in hiding.

I think that this witch is just out of her mind. Sounds like something out of a tabliod magazine. Which is what the Quibbler sounds like.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 7, 2004 10:48 pm (#553 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 7, 2004 10:49 pm
Wow, some of you only have two or three theories. I have two or three hundred theories. The only thing I know for sure is it is not Harry, Voldemort (and that means Riddle) or Mark Evans. It is also not the baby of two 16 year olds. I am pretty confident it is a male. I am on rather uncomfortably sitting on the "anything but those 4 things is possible motor scooter" Sorry, there's only room for one on here. Beep-beep!

Oh, and one last thing on my Lucius clears his name theory. I speculated he'd run for minister of magic and the HBP would be the one to run against him, not that Lucius is the HBP. And I don't think every wizard is going to believe he is innocent. It'll be like OJ Simpson. He'll be free, but most people will still think he did it. The basic point of the theory was that the HBP would be the next Minister of Magic (or at least a candidate). In that case, it is probably someone we don't know. The rest was just to add color to the theory.

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StareyedSlytherin - Jul 7, 2004 11:36 pm (#554 of 2923)

I think I'll take the apple-wagon too^_^ Just too little information to go on right now LoL!

However.. IMO The Regulus theory doesn't completely have to die just becouse he is, does it? After all, being dead has never stopped Nearly Headless Nick or Peeves before, has it?

EDIT: With that in mind, JKR can rightfully say that Regulus is dead without giving away too many clues that he may play a big role later on, but we should keep in mind that in her world, that doesn't mean that the character can't come into the story in some form or another. In the interview, JKR only says that 'he's pretty quiet these days' not that he will continue to be quiet. Also, with them both being dead, I'm sure Regulus could still be mistaken for Sirius by Harry.

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The giant squid - Jul 7, 2004 11:41 pm (#555 of 2923)

Wandless Wizard...I admit I only listed a few options, but the first one covers a lot of ground. Wink I do agree with all your choices of who the HbP is not, though, and I'll go so far as to add Madam Marsh and Mr. Prentice to the list as well (ooh, out on a limb, are we? Smile ).

--Mike

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therealscabbers - Jul 8, 2004 3:36 am (#556 of 2923)

Petra t
hmmm having considered all the evidence my opinion on the identity if the HBP is ........

I dont know!!!!!

my first thought - as everyones was LV or Tom Riddle - it was sooo obvious - but then JKR says no, and I suppose she never does go with the obvious does she!!

Has anyone asked the simple question of what is the general consesnus of side? is the HBP for or against Harry?

Obviously there are theories on both - LV, Malfoy etc on the one side and DD, Hagrid, Dobby on the other but what is the general view? for or against?

Personally ... I dont know!!!!!

oh I am soo confused, but hey all will become clear in due course!!

PS this is my first post!! Smile

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total hatred - Jul 8, 2004 4:26 am (#557 of 2923)

Being dead doesn't mean you can't remain in this realm. I believe that only the dead wizards that are not afraid of death can't remain in this world.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 8, 2004 6:11 am (#558 of 2923)

Surely the fact that one of them is a "Half-blood Prince" would have come up by now? -- Prefect Marcus

Not to stir up old controversies, but one might have thought that in 5 years the staircase issue (i. e. the fact that boys cannot get into the girls' dormitory) would have come up before 5th year, but it didn't. (Hee hee)

I would agree that if someone knew they were the HbP, they might have mentioned it, but perhaps the HbP doesn't know his status.

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popkin - Jul 8, 2004 6:34 am (#559 of 2923)

mother
Loopy Lupin - Jul 8, 2004 6:11 am (#558 of 558) Not to stir up old controversies, but one might have thought that in 5 years the staircase issue (i. e. the fact that boys cannot get into the girls' dormitory) would have come up before 5th year, but it didn't. (Hee hee)

That sounds like one of those things that JKR wanted to slip into book five so that she could use it again later and we wouldn't say, "wait a minute, where did that come from?" Of course, we said that when it first showed up in book five.

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MrsGump - Jul 8, 2004 6:42 am (#560 of 2923)

I don't think we can limit our choices for HBP to those who are currently alive, either. For example, Salazar is pretty important for CoS, but he was dead and gone for quite a long time. Harry could have visions from the past, communicate with someone long gone, finally read "Hogwarts: A History", etc.

Regulus could be an option, especially since Sirius was disowned, leaving the way clear for the younger to inherit the title. I kind of like this one, because he was mentioned for no real reason other than Sirius's history. Could be just a small random fact for us fanatics, but I can't help thinking of Hermione's sister that got cut.

Anyways, I'm still on the apple cart because there are too many good ideas out there.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 8, 2004 8:05 am (#561 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 8, 2004 8:05 am
Loopy,

Yes, she blew it with the staircase, but somehow I doubt she ever intended on calling one of the books, Harry Potter and the Staircase to the Girl's Dorm! :-)

Marcus

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Peregrine - Jul 8, 2004 9:17 am (#562 of 2923)

The Regulus theory is interesting. I don't think Regulus is still alive, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have a son, like popkin said. And if he did have a son before he died, he'd be about Harry's age. But, how could Regulus or his offspring have been relevant in CoS?

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Chris. - Jul 8, 2004 9:22 am (#563 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I don't know about the Regelus theory. It's possible but, in my opinion, not probable.

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Bluenote1313 - Jul 8, 2004 10:18 am (#564 of 2923)

There is another theory floating around on another similar topic on this board which I might not argee with but is at least interesting...

Ron Weasley.....

There are a couple things I added to the discussion depite me not agreeing with it...first, and I missed the obvious here, the tune one "Weasley is our King". We know Draco made up the song to affect Ron during Quidditch, but it is just the sort thing JKR could slip by and we would ingore for seeing its purpose in OotP.

Second, now that Fred and George have gone from the school, Ron is the remaining MALE Weasley at Hogwarts. If his dad does become Minister of Magic, I could see the term "Half Blood Prince" being a reference to Ron. Kind of dig at him from Draco. His Dad would have the unofficial "King" of the Wizarding community by being Minister and therefore his son would be "Prince".

Not that I agree with it but it is something to think about.....

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Gemini12602 - Jul 8, 2004 10:29 am (#565 of 2923)

total hatred - Jul 8, 2004 4:26 am (#557 of 564) Being dead doesn't mean you can't remain in this realm. I believe that only the dead wizards that are not afraid of death can't remain in this world.

I just had an interesting thought. Does that mean that Voldemort will become a ghost when he finally dies? We all know he must be afraid of death since he wants to be immortal. hmmmm. I don't know about you all, but I definately would hate the ghost of Volie still hanging around the WW.

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aberforth dumbledore's #1 fan - Jul 8, 2004 10:47 am (#566 of 2923)

If he turned into a poltergeist when he died he could still cause some havoc.

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almightykneazle33 - Jul 8, 2004 12:33 pm (#567 of 2923)

I am the Almighty Kneazle. Do not ask questions.
Hehehe Prefect Marcus, that was funny!

Mmm, Ron? Not too sure about that one. Possibly, but I have to dismiss that one. Sorry Bluenote!

Speaking of which, I was thinking... why would anyone call anyone else a Half-blood prince? Even if it is in fun? Aren't there meaner names out there? I wouldn't take much offense at being called a HBPrincecess (heehee). That whole mean-nickname-turned-around-into-a-good-thing theory just doesn't really fit if you know what I mean. But then again.. I wouldn't have thought that 'Weasly is our King' would be offensive from just those four words!

``--the almighty kneazle--``

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 8, 2004 1:00 pm (#568 of 2923)

Yes, she blew it with the staircase, but somehow I doubt she ever intended on calling one of the books, Harry Potter and the Staircase to the Girl's Dorm! :-) -- Prefect Marcus

I'm not sure I get how that makes a difference to whether or not it should have come up by now. Anyway, as I said before, I agree that it would be strange that someone we've met would say, "Oh by the way, I'm the HBP." Thus, it is either the case that some one doesn't really know who they are or it is indeed someone we haven't met before.

Regulus? Ron? How could those purebloods be the HBP? Did I miss something somewhere?

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Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 1:08 pm (#569 of 2923)

The theory with Regulus (at least IMO) is that if the half-blood prince is connected with him, it will be a son that he had with either a muggle, muggle-born, or half-blood witch.

As for Ron, it would be simply a nickname, not necessarily the literal meaning of the words. I must say, though, I don't think Ron is very likely.

I'm not sure who said this (it might not have even been on this thread), but someone said that magical creatures are half-breeds, and not half-bloods. This would eliminate Dobby, Hagrid, Lupin, Firenze and any other "half-breeds", right?

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Catherine - Jul 8, 2004 1:12 pm (#570 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Regulus? Ron? How could those purebloods be the HBP? Did I miss something somewhere? --Loopy Lupin

LOL!. No, Loopy, you didn't miss anything at all, except that I would like to add that Regulus is an even more unlikely candidate for HBP, seeing as how he's dead and all that.

Maybe the Giant Squid is the HBP. Maybe the HBP is hidden under the staircase in the girls' dormitory. Oh, maybe Lupin is James Potter, who is also the HBP. :O

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 8, 2004 1:16 pm (#571 of 2923)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
HA LOL, that is funny. We all know that HBP is going to be MRS. Norris(That is a joke). Perhaps the HBP is a title given to a character that claims to be like a champion for the people. A Lockhart type character trying to usurp Harry's role. Unbeknownst to the character of course, there is the prophesy, so it also be a great aggrevation to Harry.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 8, 2004 1:50 pm (#572 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Loopy,

If the HBP is important enough to name a book after it, then I would think such an item of information would have been mentioned in the three succeeding books if the HBP is a known character from the first two books.

Marcus

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Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 1:56 pm (#573 of 2923)

Well, the Goblet of Fire was never previously mentioned. Nor was Moody, a vital character in the book.

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schoff - Jul 8, 2004 1:56 pm (#574 of 2923)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
But the title has never been the main protagonist at the end. It's usually been the decoy or the impetus.

PS/SS is actually about the possible return of Voldemort.
CS has Diary (Tom Riddle).
PA is actually Peter Pettigrew (Scabbers), Sirius was the red herring.
GF is really about the Triwizard Tournament.
OOP is about the Dept. of Mysteries--in specific the prophecy.

I'm thinking that while the HBP may be important, he's gonna be a shocker that just leads to the main event.

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Courtney22 - Jul 8, 2004 3:03 pm (#575 of 2923)

Good point schoff, that's what I was thinking.Things aren't always what they purport themselves to be in the books, especially when it comes to the titles. I like the idea that Sleeping Beauty presented that the HBP is some sort of false hope that distracts people from the real problems that lay ahead

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Chemyst - Jul 8, 2004 3:50 pm (#576 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I'm thinking that while the HBP may be important, he's gonna be a shocker that just leads to the main event. ~ schoff
A charismatic Anti-Voldy who will hawk false security to the masses... A smart & crafty version of Lockhart?

Oh, and as long as we're spouting theory-fodder, Robin Hood, PRINCE of Thieves says in his movie,
Nobility is not a birthright; it's defined by ones's actions.

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Courtney22 - Jul 8, 2004 4:31 pm (#577 of 2923)

"Nobility is not a birth right"

I like that! So much of the speculation centers around the word PRINCE,in an heir to to the throne kind of way what if that's completely off base

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schoff - Jul 8, 2004 5:05 pm (#578 of 2923)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
I like the idea that Sleeping Beauty presented that the HBP is some sort of false hope that distracts people from the real problems that lay ahead

That's quite interesting....like a false prophet, or another Lockhart. An Anti-Voldie....I really like that!

That would probably make it an entirely new character, though. Not someone we already know.

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 8, 2004 5:32 pm (#579 of 2923)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Perhaps it isn't going to be like Lockhart, but really Lockhart. He comes out of St. Mungo's and begins this new charade. Molly still used his book, maybe he is not discredited in everyone's eyes.

Edit: I should have stated this earlier. I was Joking! I don't think Lockhart is the actuall HBP, just someone with his type of personality

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aberforth dumbledore's #1 fan - Jul 8, 2004 5:39 pm (#580 of 2923)

I think JKR said that Lockhart was just making a cameo in the 5th book, and was not goin to be important anymore, but maybe I'm wrong.

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Robert Dierken - Jul 8, 2004 6:10 pm (#581 of 2923)

In the book Morte d'Arthur there are at least two good wizards -- Merlin and King Pelleas of Astolat. Pelleas casts a spell on Sir Lancelot du Lac, which results in Lancelot becoming the father of Sir Galahad of Astolat, who was the grail knight.

I advance a theory that the Half Blood Prince is a descendant of Pelleas. (But then perhaps all the wizards are descended from him!)

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koala marpusial - Jul 8, 2004 9:07 pm (#582 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
Can anyone -- ANYONE find something wrong with the Godric theory

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Hem Hem - Jul 8, 2004 9:08 pm (#583 of 2923)

Welcome Back, Schoff!!!

Another half-baked candidate for the Half-blood Prince: Cadaroc Dearborn, the missing member of the Order. Of course, he was never mentioned anywhere near CoS, so I doubt it's him, but one never does know...

I guess he's just as likely as a relative of Regulus Black.

EDIT: Koala, if there's no apparent flaw with the Godric theory, why do you want to find something wrong with it? It's a wonderful idea, even if it may not end up being correct, isn't it?

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Gemini12602 - Jul 8, 2004 9:22 pm (#584 of 2923)

I think the Gordic theory is the only that doesn't have some type of flaw to it. Especially if its someone mentioned in part in CoS. And it makes so much sense that alot of information on Gordic could have been taken out of CoS. To me it makes perfect sense, and unless some new amazing theory comes out, or JKR herself tells us its not Gordic, I will be riding the Gordic Gryffindor all the way to Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. ALL ABOARD!!!!

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 8, 2004 9:38 pm (#585 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
koala marpusial wrote: "Can anyone -- ANYONE find something wrong with the Godric theory."

Depends on what you mean as wrong and how much it will take to convince you. I have some qulams about it. I still think it is possible, and maybe even the possibility that makes the most sense. Yet I still have some doubts. Anyway, here is what I think. We know nothing about Godric's heritage. We don't know if he is half-blood or royal. I doubt he is half-blood because this is something wizards seem to know about and Slytherin was friends with him. The theory that Slytherin left because of this realization doesn't work for me. Slytherin left because of arguments about the school. So the big things that we know (he is HB or called a HB and he is a prince or called a prince) don't point to him. the times DD talked to Harry about him really belonging in Griffyndor or Harry being a half-blood, DD never said, "You know, Gryffindor was a half-blood just like you".

My second big qulm is that he is dead. Every other title has been something tangible with which Harry could interact. CoS was not entitled Harry Potter and Slytherin's heir or Salazar's legacy. It was the Chamber of Secrets because that was the tangible thing those two left behind. The heir was a memory in a diary and Salazar was long dead. I don't see how Godric could be around in a tangible enough form to get a book named after him. It could be his heir, but I think that is kind of corny to have another heir running about. I think the "heir of" story has been played out. Are we going to meet Hufflepuff's heir as well? How about Ravenclaw's? So those are my two big qualms about the Godric=HBP theory as well as a few small ones not worth mentioning.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 8, 2004 9:59 pm (#586 of 2923)

Those are definately good points. I still feel that those points arent as bad as some of the others against other theories. Just because all of the other titles were something tangible that Harry could interact with in some way doesn't mean they all must be. I am now convinced that whomever the HBP is was mentioned in CoS in some way, which is why I believe its Gordic. Its also the only information I can think of that could have been removed from CoS.

Something really bad must have happened between Gordic and Salazar. To me its like if Dumbledore and Voldemort were once good friends and then one of them decided to build a chamber to hold a monster to be used to kill innocent children he believed weren't worthy to be taught magic. If Gordic is as great as we have been told he is, then maybe when he and Salazar were friends there had only been full blooded wizards in Hogwarts. Then one year there is a student to be admitted that is half-blooded and Gordic is ready to allow them, but Salazar doesn't trust them. Gordic ends up winning a battle with Salazar (not a fight, but a battle of what is right in their minds) and he is praised as "The Half-Blood Prince" because he is a "prince" of a man to allow half-bloods to learn magic. Maybe before this time half-bloods were never allowed to be taught magic and Gordic changed that.

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Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 10:11 pm (#587 of 2923)

Gemini12602, are you typing Gordic on purpose? Sorry, just curious :~D

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Hollywand - Jul 8, 2004 10:38 pm (#588 of 2923)

Gryffindor
If Salazar Slytherin has a Basilisk locked in the Chamber, could Godric have a Gryffin somewhere in the chamber as well? I can't help wondering if the potions riddle doesn't have a possible link, as the trio has had to be tortured learning potions from Professor Snape. Is there a potions thread discussion? I did not see potions listed....

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Gemini12602 - Jul 8, 2004 10:43 pm (#589 of 2923)

Whoops :-D ahem... Godric ::embarrased:: For some reason I always read it as Gore-dic, but I guess since its spelled as Godric, then it sounds like God-rick. :-D

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Hollywand - Jul 8, 2004 10:52 pm (#590 of 2923)

Gryffindor
Godric, translating into "Good" "Reign" (regal,strong, powerful). Apologies, I am a root hound. Sound like a prince?

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Seattle Was A Riot - Jul 8, 2004 10:54 pm (#591 of 2923)

And so I'm back to throw out another abstract theory...

I actually liked the Ron theory, with Arthur becoming Minister of Magic and such. The problem with it is, though, that we've seen Ron in nearly every chapter for 5 books. There's not enough mistery about him to name a book after him.

So, I throw my other, similar theory at you: The HBP is Cedric Diggory

Think about it: Amos Diggory becomes Minister of Magic. We don't know him that well, but perhaps he's very big on equality regardless of blood like Arthur, or maybe he's just a halfblood himself. Hence, he becomes the "Halfblood King". That would essentially make Cedric the Halfblood prince. I think Harry talking to Nick at the end of OP was a bit of foreshadowing, and that perhaps Cedric has a ghost that plays some signifigant role, maybe even without being officially called the HBP.

But, alas, that was just one of my abstract theories. In all honesty, I'm with the Gordic Gryffindor theory, but being odd, I just like to throw those odd theories out there.

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Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 11:00 pm (#592 of 2923)

I think that if Cedric had a ghost, we would have met him already, even if it was just a glimpse, though.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 8, 2004 11:10 pm (#593 of 2923)

Its possible Cedric could be a ghost, but I highly doubt the HBP has anything to do with him or his family. I would love to see Arthur as the Minister of Magic though :-D

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Ricky - Jul 6, 2004 3:17 pm (#594 of 2923)

I have heard two major theory's.

Godric Gryffindor is the HBP. The evidence people can find on this is that his sword is a royal not a battle sword.

Salazar Slytherin - Just because it would be so rich in amusement to see him being the HBp.

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haymoni - Jul 6, 2004 3:38 pm (#595 of 2923)

I'm sticking with Hagrid as the HBP.

- he is a half blood.

- when asked about actors to play her characters, JKR suggested Robbie Coltrane as Hagrid, not who would be a good Harry or Dumbledore.

- JKR gave Robbie Coltrane background on Hagrid.

- His mother Fridwulfa is named by Rita Skeeter in her article like people should know who she is. "His mother is none other than the giantess, Fridwulfa".

- He brings back Grawp - why??? I know what Hagrid says, but why would JKR bother with a younger giant brother?? (Hagrid is the HBP and Grawp is the FBP.)

- Hagrid has a prominent part in COS, the original HBP.

- we don't know what the Giant world was like when they were still in England - they could have a royal line just like the Royal Family but so many were killed off, they now follow the strongest.

These are just some ideas off the top of my head - I haven't had a chance to re-read all the Hagrid/Grawp parts yet.

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popkin - Jul 6, 2004 4:09 pm (#596 of 2923)

mother
Edited by Jul 6, 2004 4:12 pm
According to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The star Regulus, is also known as the Ruler or Lawgiver, or the Heart of the Lion: 'As the brightest star in Leo, Regulus almost always has been universally associated in ancient cultures with the concept of royalty or kingly power.'

The star Regulus is also closely associated with Sirius, the Dog Star. The "Heart of the Lion" sounds like the heir of Gryffindor. Of all the character names JKR has chosen, I think Regulus' name sounds the most regal - and therefore the most likely candidate for the Half Blood Prince, except for one thing. The Blacks are definitely purebloods. So if there is a half blood prince associated with Regulus, I'm going to guess it would be Regulus' son. Regulus has been gone and supposed to be dead (no body has been found, though) for 15 years - plenty of time to marry and have children. It would be a triple shocker for Mrs. Black to have her darling boy return to the roost as a "blood traitor" with a muggle wife and half blood children.

I predict that Sirius brother, Regulus, will turn up in book six, and Harry will mistake him, at first, for Sirius. Why would Regulus come out of hiding? I don't know. Perhaps book six will revolve around estate disputes between Harry and Regulus' family. But, if Regulus has married a muggle, escaped the Death Eaters, and made a life for himself and his family, I hope he would be an honorable man - instead of a soft idiot. (Isn't that what Sirius called him in the Black family tree chapter?) Maybe he comes back to pay his respects to Sirius, or to take over Sirius role as Harry's godfather.

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koala marpusial - Jul 6, 2004 10:40 pm (#597 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
It is my firm belief that the HBP is one of the founding four.. which had everything to do with CoS...

I once believed it could be a wide range of people but then i looked in Cos and I relaized it was almost definitely one of the founding four

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 9, 2004 1:53 am (#598 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 9, 2004 2:22 am
popkin- Harry is loaded. Why would he get into a dispute with Regulus over Sirius' estate? He has proved before he doesn't want money obtained through death (Tri-wizard winnings). I feel like Harry would simply say, "Yeah, it's your families money and house, you should have it." The order does need 12GMP still. If Regulus was fleeing from Death Eaters though, he probably would want to help them. I don't see enough controversy for him to come out of hiding for more than a few pages.

I like the Regulus's son theory better than Regulus himself. Maybe the reason Regulus finally wanted to leave Voldemort was because he fell in love with a muggle or half-blood. They got married secretly and were about to have a kid when Voldemort told Regulus to kill his wife, not realizing it was his wife. Regulus refused, and zip, bam, boom, dead Regulus. But his wife lived and his son was born and raised in the muggle world. The will reading (or whatever the magical version of it is) would be a good time to introduce him. Maybe DD is there, recognizes he is a wizard and asks his mom if he can go to Hogwart's, even though he technically is too old to start. CoS would have been the better time to introduce hiom because he would have been 11 instead of 15 now. So starting him at Hogwart's is akward, but would have worked in CoS. Anyway, I am just trying to add some color to the theory. I think it could work.

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Anna Osipova - Jul 9, 2004 1:56 am (#599 of 2923)

Well, Regulus' son might have attended another school. Maybe they lived in America, Germany, etc...

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popkin - Jul 9, 2004 4:39 am (#600 of 2923)

mother
How did my post, #526, get copied to #596? I didn't copy it, so it should have someone else's name on it, shouldn't it? Just curious.

Wandless Wizard, you're right. I can't see Harry in an estate dispute over Sirius' money. However, there are things that I could see him wanting for the sentimental attachment, and because Sirius wanted him to have them. Maybe he had some things that originally belonged to James or Lily. But, like I said, it seems more likely that Regulus (and/or family) would turn up for some other reason. Maybe he comes back so that Kreachur won't become the Malfoy's new house elf.

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HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05) Empty HP6: the Half Blood Prince (Jun 04-Mar 05) (Post 601 to 650)

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:41 am

Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 5:40 am (#601 of 2923)
We all know that HBP is going to be MRS. Norris(That is a joke).-- Sleeping Beauty. Perhaps the HBP is a title given to a character that claims to be like a champion for the people. A Lockhart type character trying to usurp Harry's role.

No, no, Filch. Very Happy I do like the idea of HBP being a new character but a charlatan.

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Peregrine - Jul 9, 2004 8:09 am (#602 of 2923)

Maybe the HBP is the lawyer (or solicitor since we’re being British) Harry retains during the dispute over Sirius' belongings. Instead of 1*-800*-THE-WOLF it's 1*-800*-HBP-4YOU...Champion Solicitor for all the half-bloods of the Wizarding World who are caught in legal battles with thought-to-be-dead pure bloods and their Death Eater relatives.
[I added '*' so as not to create phone links]

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 8:14 am (#603 of 2923)

Please, Harry in one trial was enough for all 7 books, thank you very much. Smile

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Catherine - Jul 9, 2004 8:21 am (#604 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
What, Loopy? A lawyer who doesn't want to see Harry in yet another trial? Smile

I agree that Harry on trial has been done. I wouldn't be surprised if we find ourselves in another trial, however.

I'd love to see Madam Bones presiding over the trial of Dolores Jane Umbridge...

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therealscabbers - Jul 9, 2004 9:06 am (#605 of 2923)

Petra t
am re reading OOtP at the moment and came across a quote in the most noble house of Black Chapter which says that being a Black was considered like Royalty - and Tonks is the offspring of a black and a muggle? I know she is a female but maybe she has a brother hiding somwhere? just a thought - goes to show all the proud "pure blood" families have half bloods in thier not too distant past!

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Star Crossed - Jul 9, 2004 9:07 am (#606 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Tonk's father is muggleborn, not muggle.

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therealscabbers - Jul 9, 2004 9:08 am (#607 of 2923)

Petra t
Ok but anyway wat about the side the HBP will be on? Harry's or Voldies?

answers on a postcard.....

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Peregrine - Jul 9, 2004 10:11 am (#608 of 2923)

We don't know for sure that Tonks is an only child, do we? I don't think it was mentioned one way or another. So I guess Ted Tonks Jr. is a possibility. (I don't buy it, but it's possible.)

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 10:32 am (#609 of 2923)

What, Loopy? A lawyer who doesn't want to see Harry in yet another trial? Smile -- Catherine Allen

I really didn't care to see him in the first trial. Given that, at that point, there are about 600 pages left in the book, the suspense was not killing me.

Anyway, no we don't know if Tonks has any siblings. That's a good possibility.

I am inclined to think that the Half Blood Prince won't side with Voldy (Oops, sorry, but as JKR is currently in hiding in Bolivia, I'll take my chances. Pffffft!) But, I am intrigued by the idea of HBP appearing as some sort of rival of Harry's. (Although not very intrigued by the idea of him being a Lockhart-type character as that has been done and we maybe haven't seen the last of Lockhart still.)

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Gemini12602 - Jul 9, 2004 7:05 pm (#610 of 2923)

Did Harry and Ron ever tell anyone (aside from Hermione of course) that Lockhart was really a fake?

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soldierboy - Jul 9, 2004 8:10 pm (#611 of 2923)

82nd Airborne Hooah!
Has anyone considered ahhh.... Tom Riddle. Not Voldemort, but Tom Riddle. I mean in COS were the clues to HBP lie, Dobby says Tom Riddle and Voldemort are one in the same, yet not the same. And Lucious Malfoy does have Tom's Diary after all. Hmmm just a suggestion.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 9, 2004 8:19 pm (#612 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Soldierboy- This has been considered and some people buy it, others don't. I don't. Remember that Dobby said it was not "he-who-must-not-be-named". For at that point Riddle could be named. However, at that point he was already Voldemort. JKR said it is not Voldemort. I have a whole huge long post about it earlier. Check out post 490 and 493 if you are interested in my complete thoughts.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 9, 2004 9:26 pm (#613 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I had, what my brother thought, was a very interesting idea today. Merlin is sometimes called (and is so called in JKR's Famous Wizards' Cards) the 'Prince of Enchanters'. He was, in legend, considered a halfbreed, half human, half 'demon'. Now, place Merlin into JKR's world. To a Muggle, someone who has magical powers might seem very scary, even 'demonic'. So maybe, in JKR's world, Merlin was actually half Muggle, half wizard, thus a halfblood. So, if the 'Prince of Enchanters' could be a halfblood, could he be a 'halfblood prince'? If so, how would that work into the story? Any thoughts?

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koala marpusial - Jul 9, 2004 9:31 pm (#614 of 2923)

are you from new zealand?
Edited by S.E. Jones Jul 9, 2004 10:17 pm
someone brought that up earlier in the thread but I still think it's highly unlikely - because Merlin has absolutely nothing to do with the plot of the books at all... he's a completely random guy coming out of left field who had no part in CoS and would serve no purpose to the plot whatsoever other than to drive us all into prolonged insanity.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 9, 2004 9:38 pm (#615 of 2923)

I agree with Koala. Merlin is only used to support the Wizard world with someone people know as a "real" wizard. Its kinda like how she incorporates almost every type of mythical creature and such into the books. Dragons, unicorns, giants, goblins, elves, gnomes, vampires, werewolves, and so on. Merlin is just a cool type of connection. We have seen almost all of these in some form though, and I believe the only form we will see Merlin in, is the "Order of Merlin - First Class".

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TGF - Jul 9, 2004 9:51 pm (#616 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Hey, Anna, that was my avatar first. :-( Though I guess he's looking in a different direction though so people won't mix us up.

I also highly doubt that it's Merlin. This isn't Arthurian legend, it's Harry Potter. That kind of a plot twist would be kinda sloppy, it's completely unhinted at and it involves the kind of crossover that wouldn't fit in with the books at all.

Everyone aboard the Applewagon here...

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popkin - Jul 9, 2004 10:05 pm (#617 of 2923)

mother
Edited by Jul 9, 2004 10:06 pm
I don't think it's Merlin, but he is on the Chocolate Frog cards. So, he wouldn't be a new character. Also, he might not play such a big role in the book - something like the Goblet of Fire - it just spews out the champions names. Maybe the Half Blood Prince is in a painting, and leads Harry to an answer to how he's supposed to fulfill the prophecy or something. Or, maybe the answer is on the back of Merlin's Chocolate Frog card (I'm sure she won't use that one again.)

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S.E. Jones - Jul 10, 2004 1:18 am (#618 of 2923)

Let it snow!
popkin: Maybe the Half Blood Prince is in a painting, and leads Harry to an answer to how he's supposed to fulfill the prophecy or something.

That's kind of what I was thinking, Popkin, someone from the past who will have some information that will somehow impact the present. I'm guessing the HBP is someone from the past, either historical (Gryffindor, Slytherin... Merlin....) or recent (James Potter), who isn't actually royalty (I think the title is for our benefit, I don't think we'll actually see it in the book), and who, though half-blooded had the influence, power and status of a pureblood for some reason (perhaps through a pureblood ancestor?).....

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TGF - Jul 10, 2004 1:45 am (#619 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I don't think we'll see James in a painting. It'd kinda detract from the 'isolated orphaned' aspect of Harry's character if he could talk to his dad in a painting.

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narisa - Jul 10, 2004 6:37 am (#620 of 2923)

Hi, I am new here. After read many theories, I want to suggest mine. My first thought for the HBP is Hagrid. But I don't think it is possible now, since there are so many people think it is Hagrid.

I think JK will make a surprise, it isn't her style to let people have the correct guess. So, I don't think it is Dobby or Evan either. Like the question "Who will ie in book5?" before the book arrived. I never find one who think it should be Black.

I think maybe it will be the new DADA teacher, who I guess will be in the order or is a DE. What I quite sure is that HBP will be a person that is still alive. I will be disappoint if it is someone like Godric Grifindor or a ghost.

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riddikulus - Jul 10, 2004 10:23 am (#621 of 2923)

I see both your points... I think. WW is saying that some Wizards will believe what they will, based on what suits them better, to believe... and if the vote gets into the wrong hands, you could, in fact, see Malfoy becomming the Minister of magic. I think it's far fetched... I can't see, personally, allowing that. But, I get his point.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 10, 2004 10:54 am (#622 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I didn't mean the HBP was a painting, per se, that was popkin's idea. I just meant that it would be someone from the past who would have some information that would affect the present. Thus, I think James could work as the HBP....

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Stringer - Jul 10, 2004 11:03 am (#623 of 2923)

Does anyone else wonder why Gildroy Lockhart cycled back into the story? He had an entire chapter (cos ch 6) named after him. I must say he could have just been the pathway for us to see Neville's parents, but it was mentioned in the book that the healers think Gildroy may be getting his memory back.

Also Firenze was brought back to the story- maybe he knows more on the history of Hogwarts.

All in all I'm going with the Godric Griffindor theory. The Hagrid theory just doesn't seem to pan out for me. The Gurg is the leader of the giants, and to be Gurg you just have to decapitate the current gurg.

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popkin - Jul 10, 2004 11:57 am (#624 of 2923)

mother
Edited by Jul 10, 2004 11:59 am
I think Lockhart may lead us to some cures/solutions by leading us back to the people he put memory charms on. The one that seems most likely is the "immensely complicated homorphous charm" that was used to cure the werewolves in the village in his book. If the wizard could be located who had performed the charm that Lockhart had taken credit for, and if his memory returned, he could cure Lupin. Lockhart also provided some delightful comic relief ("I'm doing joined up writing, now.")

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Miriam Huber - Jul 10, 2004 1:58 pm (#625 of 2923)

Hi, greetings from Germany (obviously, this means: I apologize for my English...) I just joined the forum and didn´t read all 624 messages about "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" (sorry, I´m not Hermione). But I am nevertheless quite astonished:

As far as I can see, you discussed widely the "half-blood" of the title, but not the "prince".

As we all know, the wizarding world is not (at least, today) a kingdom. So it can´t be just someone living! Possibly, someone would call himself like that - but then it would certainly be "king" if he WANTED to be the big boss. But "prince"? Even Voldemort is not called "king", but "master", so it could not have anything to do with that. So, in my opinion, is has either to be someone in the past or someone fictional - but never Lupin or Cedric or someone like that.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 10, 2004 2:21 pm (#626 of 2923)

I'm pleased to report that your English is better than many of the "English speakers" here in America which I, woefully enough, have to try and talk to on a daily basis, Miriam... so no worries there.

As for the title "prince", I've missed a bit because I was gone for a few days, but I don't recall anyone suggesting (even J.K. Rowling herself) that the HBP would be a real prince. Indeed, she has already spent some time setting up the fact that pure-blood wizards see themselves as a kind of royalty based on their birth as pure-blood wizards, so we've already got another set of established criteria for calling someone a "prince".

There have also been suggestions made as to whether or not "prince" is used in another manner altogether, such as the word referring to someone who has been spoiled and pampered "like a prince", or perhaps someone everyone else looks up to ("a prince among men").

Since J.K. Rowling has already said she's not saying anything more than "the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort", I think we're going to have to simply wait until the book is published to find out who he is, because at this point we only really know the following about him:

He's a male.

He's very likely British.

He isn't Harry, Voldemort, or Mark Evans (or Gordon, I suppose).

He's probably a half-blood of some sort.

The word "prince" probably applies to him in some way.

Other than that, unless someone knows Ms. Rowling well enough to actually call her Jo and has miraculously pried some information out of her that even her publisher and family don't have, we don't have any meaningful information. For all we know, it could be Newt Scamander.

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Angel of the North - Jul 10, 2004 2:27 pm (#627 of 2923)

Tea, dammit
ACtually, I rather suspect that it's going to be a Saxon or Scottish Prince, possibly Welsh, Seventh Son of Seventh Son (or even 8th of 8th of 8th) I'm veering towards Scottish or Welsh, myself.

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Anna Osipova - Jul 10, 2004 2:46 pm (#628 of 2923)

TGF< I'm very sorry for stealing your avatar. I honestly didn't mean to. I suppose I saw it, thought it was extremely cute, then it slipped out of my mind and when I saw it once more, I thought, "Now isn't that cute for an avatar?" I promise though, as soon as I find one just as cute, I'll change it.

Now, back to the topic. Popkin, I do like your idea that Lockhart will be able to lead us to someone who can heal Lupin, although I think his being a werewolf will be important to the story in some way (don't ask my why or how, I have no idea).

Andrew, you are right, but you forgot to mention the the HBP was/is somehow related to CoS. The title could have been used there, and the character could have easily fit, or the information about the character, in in Bk. 2.

About the Prince being British, JKR almost clearly states that there aren't going to be any major characters of another nationality.

Will you put Americans/characters of other nationalities into the books? I'm afraid the answer to this is 'no', although you have glimpsed Americans and other nationalities at the Quidditch World Cup. The reason is obvious: I am writing about Britain and a British school and there is no logical reason to insert foreigners for the sake of it, because I'm sure they would feel gratuitous. I often get suggestions about what I ought to insert into Harry Potter books, but these are my stories and mine alone; if anyone wants to write about American wizards they are of course free to write their own book!

This was taken from her site in the FAQ: About Me section.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 10, 2004 3:03 pm (#629 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 10, 2004 3:08 pm
I think the key phrase to that passage is, "...there is no logical reason to insert foreigners for the sake of it,..."

After all, she has already introduced several foreigners. Fleur, Victor, Madame Maxime, and Karkaroff are the four main ones so far.

So, no, she isn't going to stick in an exchange student just for the sake of having someone from a different country at Hogwarts. But she has and may again bring in another foriegner where it makes sense to the plot.

EDIT: Anna, for my two knuts worth, your avatar is fine. We have multiple Snape, and multiple Hermione avatars. Why not multiple Puss-in-boots? I have no difficulty telling yours from TGF's.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 10, 2004 3:05 pm (#630 of 2923)

Well, the thing about the connection between the HBP and CoS is that J.K. Rowling said very early on (during her first writing and round of edits) she decided the story surrounding the HBP and much of what it revealed would be more appropriate later in the series. I believe she also mentions she realized very early on in her writing of the book that the story was going to be very different, so we should probably consider that while there is an ostensible link to CoS, it's entirely possible that the character of the HBP was edited out of CoS... so I don't think we really have any more information about who it could or couldn't be based on a possible connection to CoS, which is why I didn't mention it.

As for whether or not the HBP is going to be Welsh or Scottish, or even Irish... ummm... this is going to sound totally rude, but with the possible exception of the Irish, I don't think Americans really distinguish between the different places in the British Isles that finely. Most of the people I know, even the learned ones, would look at you and say something like "Scotland... it's in the north of Britain, right?"... and don't even bother asking them about Wales. They'd probably think you were talking about really large fish (yes, I am aware they're cetacean mammals and not fish). Sorry.

I kind've get the idea J.K. Rowling does the same thing (in a more maternal way, of course) since she's talking about this being a British novel about British people (hence not introducing "foreigners" into the mix), and one of her peripheral characters (Seamus Finnegan) is Irish. I think for the purposes of the books at least, all the countries on the Isles are part of one big, happy British family (please don't stone me to death... PLEASE don't stone me to death...).

Oh, as for whether or not she'll introduce a foreign character because it makes sense, while I do acknowledge that she says she wouldn't introduce them just for the sake of it, her official answer (the one she puts in quotes just so we'll know if it needs to be boiled down to one word, that's the one we should get) is "no". Everything after that is, she herself says, just the reason why she's telling you no.

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Angel of the North - Jul 10, 2004 3:10 pm (#631 of 2923)

Tea, dammit
Hogwarts is the school of the 'Midnight Isles' (to use Norman Davies' term for the 'British' Isles) and at the time it was founded there was no 'Britain' there were only several kingdoms. THe more I think on it, the likelihood of there being a Saxon Prince is diminishing. I'm umming towards the Celtic Fringe. JKR already distinguishes between the different areas in the sorting hat song (either 1 or 4) in which she talks about the four founders being from different areas - Hufflepuff was from 'Glen' yes? which might suggest that the HBP is her son by a Scottish King?

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Anna Osipova - Jul 10, 2004 3:18 pm (#632 of 2923)

Andrew, you're right. When I was younger (or rather a couple years ago), I didn't even know about the United Kingdom. I knew England, Scotland and Wales, but I thought they were their own countries. Pardon my stupidity, but it was never taught to us in school (or if it was, simply skimmed over) and not too many of us pull out a map of the UK unless we are going there.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 10, 2004 3:30 pm (#633 of 2923)

I wasn't suggesting in any way that you or anyone else on the forum was stupid. I was simply pointing out that as a people, Americans may tend to neglect thinking about other countries as separate entities to the extent they should, and we tend not to get too heavily into them unless someone important (or lots of important people) were killed there, since as Hermione would put it, "'World History in America' isn't quite an accurate description is it? Maybe it should be 'A Highly Biased History of Wars All Over the World, With a Little Bit of Background Information Thrown in so You Know Just Where All the People Are Being Killed Is'."

Oh yes, I've thought of one more suspect we can probably cross off the list for the Half Blood Prince. It's probably not Mr. Tibbles... though Crookshanks is technically a half-blood, isn't he?

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Nymphadora - Jul 10, 2004 4:25 pm (#634 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 10, 2004 4:55 pm
I like the conversation in the past few posts about British people and foreigners, and I'd like to add that since I've been living in Britain (in London) I've noticed that people whom I would not think as British, such as Anglo-Indians - admittedly, of the second and further generation - or Northern-Irish, are nevertheless perceived as British in general, and even more they perceive themselves as British and are proud of it. Before this realisation, I was a bit wondering about Dean Thomas being black, the Patils etc. being in a British boarding school. But now I think that JKR has provided a very accurate image of a British mini-society, with most of the initial nationalities being represented.

On a very different tack, I had a sudden - and quite disappointing - idea while re-re-re-re-reading the poll answer about Mark Evans. I know I might be lynched, but here it is:

...'here he is, just a casual passer-by, nothing to worry about, bet you barely noticed him' characters who would suddenly become, half way through book seven, 'Ha ha! Yes, Mark Evans is back, suckers, and he's the key to everything! He's the Half Blood Prince, he's Harry's Great-Aunt, he's the Heir of Gryffindor, he lives up the Pillar of Storge and he owns the Mystic Kettle of Nackledirk!' (Possible title of book seven there, must make a note of it). (underlines are mine for the purpose of explaining my point)

Now, every time I had read the answer so far, I had seen what I wanted to see: being a HBP-has-something-to-do-with-Godric-Gryffindor theorist, I believed that JKR meant that amid all those ingenious attributes to Mark only the HBP and the Heir of Gryffindor had any footing in the canon that is not yet revealed, but she already knows about. Even leaving the Heir thing apart, and counting it among the fantastic, ex-canon attributes, we know that there is such a thing as the Half Blood Prince, right? Just- it is not Mark.

Well.... what if this is a clue? I really see this whole rambling answer as a means of humourously discarding theories as well as revealing things. So, once I read it sans mental underlines, I thought that maybe the HBP is another fantastic attribute, only this one is fantastic within the story. I've read somewhere that the HBP might be a misleading hope, causing trouble in the anti-Voldemort side. But what I am thinking about is rather a title of, or a specific person that is entirely mythical in the WW. Kind of like Binns believed the Chamber of Secrets was myth in CoS. A person every wizarding child knows about in fairy tales, who helps in reality by example and not by interacting with Harry, or even one that is revealed to exist,like the Chamber was (haven't made up my mind yet...sorry).

It's kind of a remark Malfoy would make (or at least it's his 'voice' in my mind right now). Like, "What did you expect, Potter? To be saved by the Half-Blood Prince? Well, he doesn't exist, sorry- goodbye..." And Harry doing something the HBP would do (well.. not like that, obviously, I believe JK can do loads better Smile)

You are of course invited to shred my theory to pieces... just remember that essentially, I am in the applewagon, because I have no idea who this person might be and prefer to remain clueless (Merlin would be too obvious for my taste). Hope this post was not *too* long!

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I laughed really hard at Andrew's suggestion of a title for the history Americans are taught!! And I believe that the relevant comment by Hermione refers to all History that we're taught in school, what I learnt was also highly biased from the Greek point of view, until I started to read history out of school. Independent study should be encouraged, as well as the consideration of different points of view.

EDIT#2: Thought that the last comment about different PoVs could be perceived as a slight toward JK for using only Harry's... I don't mind that, but I wouldn't remove my comment; I would like Harry at least to start considering other people's point of view in the books to come.

Phew! Even longer now...

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Star Crossed - Jul 10, 2004 4:48 pm (#635 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Nymphadora, I think that is just brilliant. I especially love the Malfoy thing. Though it sort of kills my Godric theory. Hmm. Which gets my undying belief?

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Anna Osipova - Jul 10, 2004 5:53 pm (#636 of 2923)

Actually, Star Crossed, it is still possible that Gryffindor is that fairy tale hero. I can't say that that's my number one choice, but it is possible. And I'm sure that that could have been introduced into CoS.

Or, maybe Lockhart will write a story about the HBP. In any case, I do like that theory.

Andrew, you are definitly right about the title. :~D It's just that American studies tend to be somewhat... egocentric? or maybe the better word is self-oriented? But in our defense, most countries do that. My mother, who lived most of her lived in Ukraine, told me that there is a similar situation there too.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 10, 2004 6:08 pm (#637 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Hmmm,

Actually Nymph, you might be on to something. The HBP might be a legendary character like the Chamber of Secrets. And since we already had one legendary thing in CoS, we didn't need another one.

Very interesting theory. Makes more sense than anything else so far.

Marcus

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PKchopper - Jul 10, 2004 7:39 pm (#638 of 2923)

One item to support the Tom Riddle is the HBP theory. Harry’s scar always hurts in the presence of Voldy. In CoS, when Harry is in the chamber with Tom Riddle his scar does not hurt. Why?

Is it because Tom and Voldy are not one in the same? Someone had already explained a parallel “time line” theory why they could be different.

I don’t know if this helps with the Tom Riddle is the HBP theory, but as I stated I jumped on the Hagrid train awhile ago, so here is a biscuit for the Tom Riddle people.

Crookshanks, now there is an idea,

Or

A superhero, maybe even better yet.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 10, 2004 8:46 pm (#639 of 2923)

I think there's a simpler explanation as to why Harry's scar didn't hurt around Tom Riddle when he was in the Chamber of Secrets. The Tom Riddle we meet in the Chamber of Secrets isn't the real Voldemort. He's an echo of the teenager that turned into Voldemort. Hence, not the guy who tried to kill Harry... and not the one to which Harry has a connection.

As a result it makes perfect sense that Harry wouldn't experience any pain in his scar when dealing with the Tom Riddle in CoS. That, however, doesn't mean that the "real" Tom Riddle and Voldemort aren't one and the same guy.

As for whether or not that version of Tom Riddle can be brought back, I think he's probably been permenently dealt with, so we won't see him any more except maybe as a memory.

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PKchopper - Jul 10, 2004 9:11 pm (#640 of 2923)

Maybe once he was an echo but we do know he was usurping Ginny’s “life force” and was able to hold Harry’s wand. So he had to have a physical presence.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 10, 2004 9:49 pm (#641 of 2923)

Yes, but that doesn't mean he's the "real deal". Even if he had taken all of Ginny Weasley's life force and become entirely corporeal, lhe wouldn't have had the body Lord Voldemort has, and the "real" Lord Voldemort would still have existed in his disembodied state... therefore whether or not he had a body was irrelevant, because the Tom Riddle in CoS wasn't the same guy. The Tom Riddle from 1942 and the Lord Voldemort of 1992, however, are.

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Ozymandias - Jul 10, 2004 11:34 pm (#642 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
Diary-Riddle wouldn't have a connection with Harry because he didn't give Harry the scar. By putting himself in the diary, it's like he made a copy of himself. The copy would only share those experiences or characteristics that existed before the point of copying. Since Harry's attempted murder happened after the copying, the copy wouldn't have the link this caused.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 11, 2004 5:28 am (#643 of 2923)

That pretty well agrees with what I said. =)

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Gemini12602 - Jul 11, 2004 10:57 am (#644 of 2923)

I would say that the most practical explaination is that the Tom Riddle in the CoS was a clone of the 16 year old Tom Riddle. Harry has a connection with the radically transformed, adult Voldemort that tried to kill him.

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Joelle - Jul 11, 2004 11:17 am (#645 of 2923)

ok sorry this relates back to the beginning of the post. I am trying to figure otu how to get behind the door on her website. ive tried everything that i can think of. if you have any hints as to how it opens or anything. im not too sure what to try.

there was a comment on jkr site that said the HBP was niether harry or voldemort. and i think that we can trust her on the title.\

-J

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TGF - Jul 11, 2004 11:33 am (#646 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
It's closed again now, Joelle, see the JKR.com thread for details. It was only open for about 24 hours to begin with.

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popkin - Jul 11, 2004 11:40 am (#647 of 2923)

mother
Edited by Jul 11, 2004 11:41 am
Sorry, Joelle, the door is closed again. Since the "Do not disturb" sign is in place, you cannot open it right now. It wasn't possible for us to open for very long. I'm not even sure if we were able to open it for an entire week.

Here's something for the Hagrid applecart. Hagrid is kind of like a ruler of the Forbidden Forrest - centaurs aside. He is respected by almost all the creatures living there, and he is welcome among them and respected and admired by them. Many of these creatures have societies that are like small kingdoms. So, in a way, Hagrid is like a prince of the Forbidden Forest.

EDIT: oops. I posted at the same time as TGF, Joelle.

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 11, 2004 11:53 am (#648 of 2923)

It seems like the titles of the books refer to people, places, and things that were barely mentioned, if at all, in the previous books. There were no references to the Chamber of Secrets or the Goblet of Fire, and only slight references to the Prisoner of Azkaban and the Order of the Phoenix, in the books prior to those titles.

I am of the opinion that the Half-Blood Prince will be a completely new character, or perhaps someone mentioned only once or twice in the books published so far.

On the other hand, JKR has thrown curveballs before...

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Gemini12602 - Jul 11, 2004 12:12 pm (#649 of 2923)

Something that helps support the Godric theory would be the fact that he hasn't been mentioned in any ways since CoS... hmmmmm :0)

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 11, 2004 12:29 pm (#650 of 2923)

If you don't count the Sorting Hat's songs... but even those are rather vague...

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PKchopper - Jul 11, 2004 1:12 pm (#651 of 2923)
Andrew and Geminil you further make the point valid that the HBP can be Tom Riddle as Tom and Voldie are not one in the same. That was the original intent of my post saying that they are not “one in the same” and therefore is a point in favor of the TR=HBP group.

I am on the Hagrid train [not an applecart Popkin ;-) the apple cart is our caboose in case we need a quick getaway] and only offered it for discussion.

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 11, 2004 2:00 pm (#652 of 2923)

Let's see... how many references are there to Tom M Riddle in books 1-5?

First there were quite a few in book 2. Then there was one in book 4, and the fact that Dumbledore addressed Voldemort as 'Tom' in book 5.

In short, there are far more references to Tom M Riddle than any of the other titles. Of course, this might just be a curveball, and the fact that Voldemort is not the HBP would be another curveball.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 11, 2004 2:16 pm (#653 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 11, 2004 2:16 pm
PKchopper, it is the diary Riddle who is not the same as the current Riddle (Voldemort, He-who-must-not...). They have the same past, but different futures. They both used the name Voldemort too. Plus diary Riddle is dead, as the diary was destroyed. Regular old Tom Riddle is Voldemort and therefor cannot be the HBP.

That said, here is a wacky theory which could have diary Riddle as the HBP. I don't believe it at all, but it came into my head as I wrote this. Diary Riddle didn't die. Voldemort had already used some of the charms to avoid death and they worked for diary Riddle. He has been vapor or a spirit or whatever for 3 books. He will finally find his way to Voldemort, who will help him get a body. Diary Riddle will rule as a kind of son to Voldemort. He'll be the prince of the death eaters. Since Voldemort is also around, that name will not work and he'll go by something else. This could be why on JKR.com, Rowling says she cannot answer the question about what would have happened had Diary Tom come fully to life in CoS until after book 7. Maybe he will finally come back to life in Book 6. Maybe he was supposed to come back to like inf book 2 and then run off looking for Voldemort. Nope, I don't believe it. Can't believe I just said. Nope, no, nope, nope, no.

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PKchopper - Jul 11, 2004 2:33 pm (#654 of 2923)

See what I mean, I don't believe it either...I just put it out there for discussion as one little infinitesimal point.

It takes on a life of its own. Hmmm, maybe like the HBP

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 11, 2004 3:39 pm (#655 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 11, 2004 3:41 pm
As for the theory about it being Riddle, I really don't buy it. I mean, look at how many people thought of it right away, thought, "Ah, but remember that little trick Dobby pulled with it not being 'He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named', because it was Riddle! This might be the same thing! How clever we all are!." Well, if only because everyone thought of it so quickly, I don't buy it. It's just...well...too easy. It's going to be somebody probably no one or only a few people suspect, and even those only half-heartedly.

And on the issue of Mark Evans being proved a "total nonentity" (to use a Malfoyism): blast that woman! I love her and her books, but why couldn't she have had the sense not to torture us with a red-herring-y looking thing like Mark Evans only to have him be no one at all. I mean, there are a million, jillion common surnames that would have worked just fiiiine. I mean, she might just as well have called him Mark Granger or Mark Weasley or Mark Longbottom or Mark Lovegood---even, dare I say it, Mark Potter! I know I have to get over it eventually, but...ack! Does anyone know where I could get a good deal on a flight to Bolivia?

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 11, 2004 5:07 pm (#656 of 2923)

Again, I'm not going to speculate, but as I read what the books say and what J.K. Rowling says, I don't see Tom Riddle and Voldemort as separate entities, with the exception of the Tom Riddle conjured out of the diary (which was the ONLY time he was ever referred to as a separate entity... and even then only tenuously, so I would say the distinction is reserved for that alone until further proof is offered that it is appropriate in other places).

Indeed, the most recent text on the subject (the battle between Voldemort and Dumbledore in the Ministry of Magic) would suggest the two are considered one and the same since our great antagonist is called both Voldemort and Tom at the same time, suggesting the two names are interchangable and apply equally to the same individual.

So yeah, mark me as one of the guys that sees Tom Riddle and Voldemort as the same guy.

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Christina Perasic - Jul 11, 2004 5:09 pm (#657 of 2923)

Ok, check this out. I have no ideas as to what it may mean but I just found it interesting.

"Harry had a troubled night's sleep. His parents wove in and out of his dreams, never speaking; Mrs. Weasley sobbed over Kreacher's dead body watched by Ron and Hermione, who were wearing crowns, and yet again Harry found himself walking down a corridor ending in a locked door." (OotP, Ch 10, Pg 179, US HB)

Maybe someone can come up with something for this.

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 11, 2004 5:20 pm (#658 of 2923)

Hermione's son, the Half-Blood Prince?

Well, I suppose it's possible...

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PKchopper - Jul 11, 2004 5:31 pm (#659 of 2923)

Maybe she held on to that time-turner...

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 11, 2004 5:40 pm (#660 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 11, 2004 6:00 pm
Hermione, a 16 year old, will not have a child in HBP, a book geared toward younger readers. Mark it down, remember it. There is no way, no how, no chance. The crowns on Ron and Hermione's heads were symbolic of the prefect badges they had just goten. Harry's lingering jealousy showed up in his dreams. In the dream, Ron and Hermione were better than Harry, like royalty, because they were prefects. Harry was not prophesising that they were actually royalty. And there will be no kids having babies in the Harry Potter world. Too many kids and young adults look up to HRH for JKR to do that. If you wish to pursue this theory, I suggest you think about a prophesy regarding a child Hermione and Ron will have in the future (several years later). The HBP has to show up somehow in the book called the HBP. Also, do you think JKR was considering Ron and Hermione having a baby at 12 in CoS, then she thought "You know, 12 is much to young for them to have a child. Let's wait until they are 16."

Edit after reading Paulus' comment below: Paulus, I wasn't specifically reacting to your post. This is something that has been discussed before on this thread. I was trying to head the discussion off before it happened again. No offense meant to you, as you did say possible, and it could be possible as a prophecy in the future. It is just not possible for an actual baby to show up, IMNSHaVSFO (in my not so humble and very strongly felt opinion).

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 11, 2004 5:47 pm (#661 of 2923)

I said possible, not probable. But I hope it won't happen.

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Chemyst - Jul 11, 2004 7:13 pm (#662 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Also, do you think JKR was considering Ron and Hermione having a baby at 12 in CoS, then she thought "You know, 12 is much to young for them to have a child. Let's wait until they are 16." ~ TheWW
well, when you put it like that... Thanks for the best laugh of the day.

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Courtney22 - Jul 11, 2004 7:21 pm (#663 of 2923)

I almost peed my pants when I read that. I agree 16 is much more sensible than 12 to start a family if only more people would realize that. What a great moral for the book (please note the HEAVY sarcasm)

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Wannabemuggle - Jul 11, 2004 8:17 pm (#664 of 2923)

Romi the Arts student
Edited by Hem Hem Jul 11, 2004 8:20 pm
I dont know if anyone has said this yet, but what are the possibilities that maybe Snape is the half blood prince? I mean it fits the image of someone being picked on, as we know even James picked on him, and we werent really given a good reason as to why. if James hated, or at least made fun of half bloods, that would explain why Lily hated him so much too. Also, snape seems to act 'princely' and we still dont know why it is that Dumbldore trusts him so much... it may be because Dumbldore knows he is the half blood prince, and the reason it hasnt come to light yet is the fact that Snape hates being a half blood. do we actually know if Snape is full blood or not?

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Wannabemuggle - Jul 11, 2004 8:19 pm (#665 of 2923)

Romi the Arts student
But to tell you the truth i think it just might be someone we havent been introduced to yet.

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Star Crossed - Jul 11, 2004 8:29 pm (#666 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Wannabe, if you ever have more to say in your posts, you can always hit the edit button that appears next to your name, the date, and the number of the post, then just type what you want to say. That lovely function is up for thirty minutes until you are forced to write a new reply. Very Happy

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Wannabemuggle - Jul 11, 2004 8:44 pm (#667 of 2923)

Romi the Arts student
Hehe, thank Star, but I wanted to post it seperate because it was a seperate idea.
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schoff - Jul 11, 2004 8:54 pm (#668 of 2923)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Again, I'm not going to speculate, but as I read what the books say and what J.K. Rowling says, I don't see Tom Riddle and Voldemort as separate entities

I'd have to see it differently, mainly because this idea so closely parallels Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader, two completely distinct personalities of the same person, just at different stages of his life.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 11, 2004 9:38 pm (#669 of 2923)

Yes, schoff... but J.K. Rowling seems to detest Star Wars, and frequently makes allusions to readers getting silly ideas because they watch too much of it, so I can't see her copying George Lucas on this one.

Aside from which, the only reason Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are two separate entities is because George Lucas made Star Wars out of order, so it came as a shock when he said "No. I am your father!" in the middle of Empire Strikes Back. If we'd watched the movies from Phantom Menace on forward through Return of the Jedi, there wouldn't be any suspense or surprise concerning Darth Vader's identity, and we probably wouldn't perceive Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker as separate people because they are, of course, not.

In any case, as I've already said, there is only one place in all five books so far where J.K. Rowling makes any reference to Tom Riddle being a different entity, and that's only because a) in this particular case it was a separate entity and not the real Tom Riddle/Voldemort, and b) only because Dobby the house elf is really bad at coming up with clues for other people.

At every other juncture in the books, to include while dealing with the conjured Tom Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets, J.K. Rowling has portrayed Tom Riddle and Voldemort as being absolutely 100% one and the same person. At no point in the books has she yet even suggested that Tom Riddle's personality somehow deviates from Voldemort's personality. Indeed, by the time we're introduced to Tom Riddle in CoS, he's already supposed to be using the name Lord Voldemort. Plus, how much MORE like Lord Voldemort could he get personality wise than hunting mudbloods with a giant snake and using his powers of deception to frame innocent people? Sure he's clever, but I don't imagine legilimency hurt his finding out about Hagrid keeping Aragog and make him take the fall.

And if you want one more shred of proof, go to Tom Riddle himself. What did he spell out in the Chamber of Secrets? Tom Riddle himself said it best. "I am Lord Voldemort".

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Sherbie Lemon - Jul 11, 2004 9:43 pm (#670 of 2923)

"As for the theory about it being Riddle, I really don't buy it. I mean, look at how many people thought of it right away...Well, if only because everyone thought of it so quickly, I don't buy it. It's just...well...too easy. It's going to be somebody probably no one or only a few people suspect, and even those only half-heartedly." --- Kevin Corbett

Most people believed that the Order of the Phoenix was, well, the Order of the Phoenix. Meaning that the majority suspected the Order to be an anti-Voldie group headed by Dumbledore.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 11, 2004 10:00 pm (#671 of 2923)

Wannabemuggle - Jul 11, 2004 8:19 pm (#665 of 670) But to tell you the truth i think it just might be someone we havent been introduced to yet.

Which could still technically be Godric Gryffindor because we haven't been introduced (though if it was him I don't know how we could be) and we do not know very much about him. Here is what we do know...

- Started Hogwarts with other founders over 1000 years ago - Had some type of disagreement/fight with Salazar Slytherin - The sorting hat was his hat (I think we are told that at some point) - He had a sword

Other than that, we don't know much at all. As I have said before... if information was taken from CoS, it could very well been more information on Godric. Also I believe it is possible that at some point in the original CoS (when it was tentatively titled HBP) we could have found out more about Godric and that he was the HBP. And this information, along with the things that remained in CoS helped Harry defeat Diary Tom.

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The giant squid - Jul 12, 2004 12:50 am (#672 of 2923)

Wandless Wizard, your "Return of Diary Tom" theory is crazy, and as you say probably never going to happen, but it seems to be the only way I can see for Tom Riddle to be the HbP and still get around JKR's comment that "It's not [...] Voldemort." It'd be interesting, to say the least. Think of how Ginny'd react to find out he's back...

--Mike

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narisa - Jul 12, 2004 6:33 am (#673 of 2923)

I really want to know if anyone have got the right answer. If she just hint a bit more....

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Aeoliano - Jul 12, 2004 9:19 am (#674 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
I am probably mistaken but JKR does seems to go out of her way not to mention American. I would expect that there would be wizarding establishments there as well..

--A.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 12, 2004 10:16 am (#675 of 2923)

Edited by Pinky Jul 12, 2004 12:56 pm
Another one you can find on her website, Aeoliano. =) J.K. Rowling isn't "going out of her way" not to write about Americans... it's just that she's writing a story taking place in Great Britain, and revolving around British characters (which you would expect of a story taking place in Great Britain).

She simply sees no reason to insert foreign characters for the sake of it, and thinks they would feel gratuitous if she did. So is she not mentioning America or other countries? No, she's not. Is she going out of her way to avoid it? No.

Andrew, I edited out your last sentence. Please keep your tone a little lighter. Just for the record, Salem, Massachusetts is mentioned in GoF. Let's bring this discussion back to who the Half-Blood Prince is. ~Pinky

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TGF - Jul 12, 2004 12:56 pm (#676 of 2923)

Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
Americans are actually mentioned in the books. I believe it's the Salem Witching Institute in the Goblet of Fire at the Quidditch World Cup. So she's not pretending that America is invisible. But yeah, as Andrew says, America really has no stake in the story and it would just be silly to write an American Wizard into the story just because.

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Czarina II - Jul 12, 2004 3:30 pm (#677 of 2923)

So thus, there is always the possibility that the Half Blood Prince is non-British, but it is unlikely.

Not that that little fact helps us deduce the identity of the Prince! :-)

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Aeoliano - Jul 12, 2004 3:35 pm (#678 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Guess I missed that footnote about Salem. I do not have a problem with not having an American wizard or wizards. I can readily see where there might be a problem in her story arc. American was setlled in the 1600's. If wizards could apparate, fly on brooms, etc.. then they certainly would have known about the existence of America well before the muggles. Relationships between Native American shamans and wizards might be interesting...

And at the time she came up with the story arc JKR may not really have been all that familiar with America.

I just noted that France, the scandanavian countries ("frost" giants) and eastern europe seemed to be well known to these wizards. And that they had there own versions of "Hogwarts". And there were quidditch and magic olympics in which they could compete.

-- A.

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 3:49 pm (#679 of 2923)

Crazed Writer
I just started a thread this morning about the background of Harry's family that suggests that Godric Gryffindor might be the son of King Arthur by a second (witch) wife, thus making him a Half-blood Prince. There's a certain amount of evidence tying the Gryffindor line (and Harry and Ron) with royalty and Arthurian legend. If you're interested, right now the thread is called "Long Theory about Books 6 & 7" (I'm trying to get the name changed). The theory was divided on three separate threads, but it was put together when it was approved and placed under "Theories". Anyway, King Arthur was supposed to have lived just a little before Godric Gryffindor, so theoretically the timing is right.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 12, 2004 4:07 pm (#680 of 2923)

I love the fact that it shows Gordic being the HBP (which is what I believe) but I don't think she would tie Arthurian Legend into the story. Just doesn't make sense in my opinion. I think Merlin was just mentioned because alot of people know of Merlin as a wizard... but we shall see. The theory was very interesting to read, and does make you think. We shall see where JKR takes all this. I'd love to know what she would think if she read it lol.

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Aeoliano - Jul 12, 2004 4:16 pm (#681 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
If the Arthurian legend comes into play in this way then JKR would seem to be following a similar arc to those of Tolkien and his best friend CS Lewis. The Lord of the Rings trilogy and Silmarillon followed by a sort of sequel by CS Lewis. A science fiction/fantasy trilogy made up of "Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra", and "That Hideous Strength"...

I'm not sure but I think she will come up with an entirely different angle... just my guess.

-- A.

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Shanda - Jul 12, 2004 5:29 pm (#682 of 2923)

Round pink spider I like your theory about Godric being the son of King Arthur. I have a little differnt take on it. What if he is the son of Merlin. I guess that would mean he would not be a half blood prince unless Godrics mom was a princess.

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 12, 2004 5:53 pm (#683 of 2923)

"the son of King Arthur by a second (witch) wife, thus making him a Half-blood Prince"

That would be Mordred...

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Anna Osipova - Jul 12, 2004 5:59 pm (#684 of 2923)

Recently, a movie about King Arthur came out. Supposedly, Guinevere was a part of Merlin's "army" (that's the only way I can really think of putting it). Anyway, could it be that Guinevere was Merlin's daughter? :~S

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 12, 2004 6:20 pm (#685 of 2923)

Okay, so after a semester of studying Aurthurian legend in college, I have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion about Harry Potter straying into it, except that they seem to have nothing to do with one another at this point. Now, if Harry pulls a sword out of the Pillar of Storge (or out of the Kettle of Nackledirk on top of the Pillar of Storge, depending on what you like Excalibur jammed in) or something, I'll have to rethink the matter. Until then, though...

As to the possibility of the HBP being someone non-British, I read J.K. Rowling's comments on the subject to completely shut out the possibility of him being from any other country since her answer to whether or not she's going to put in characters of another nationality is "I'm afraid the answer to this is 'no'."

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Robert Dierken - Jul 12, 2004 6:29 pm (#686 of 2923)

In the Arturian legends, Guenevere is the daughter of King Leodegrance of Cameliard. It is thought, however, that there might have been two different women named Guenevere.

King Arthur and the Round Table would be about 500 years before Gryffindor's time.

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 6:36 pm (#687 of 2923)

Crazed Writer
I'm half expecting Merlin to come into this somehow, as in Arthur's second wife being the daughter/granddaughter of Merlin or something. I didn't bring it out in my theory, but if Godric's Hollow IS in southern Wales, that's where Merlin was supposedly born. Meanwhile, I saw someone say the other day that Ottery St. Catchpole is supposed to be in Cornwall -- where King Arthur was supposedly born. Too many plot twists...too little information.

Paulus, I've heard two different versions of the parentage of Mordred: one, that he was Arthur's bastard son; another, that he was Arthur's nephew. I was thinking of a second LEGITIMATE marriage; supposedly Guinevere entered a convent, and she might not have lived very long. If you're looking for a Mordred-figure related to Harry, I'm betting money on Mark Evans.

Anna, that's just Hollywood. I doubt JKR would stray that far from the legends. Guinevere was never called an "enchantress" or anything like that, and I doubt JKR will go there.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 12, 2004 6:45 pm (#688 of 2923)

J.K. Rowling has said Mark Evans is no one. He was a bit part that didn't even get to walk on... just a name to be mentioned. In the wake of her seeming like the kind of person that wouldn't lie to everyone (and her saying she's not the kind of person who would lie to everyone), I tend to believe her when she says that (I'm one of those foolish people who thinks other people are telling me the truth until I find out for sure they're lying to me). I'm betting he's not related to Harry.

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Hogs Head - Jul 12, 2004 7:02 pm (#689 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
If Regulus had a half-blood son before he died, would that make the son Harry's God-cousin? No such thing, is there? (joking but not very well)

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 7:03 pm (#690 of 2923)

Crazed Writer
Sorry, then, hadn't heard that comment of JKR's yet...

Robert, I started to comment, then lost my post. I've seen legends and stories that placed Arthur in the 800's or 900's, and "historical analysis" that places him in the 500's. Since I'm seeing Grail and Tintagel references, I'm thinking JKR's leaning more in the Le Morte d'Arthur direction, and setting Arthur at a later date, in the medieval period, rather than the earlier date, in the Celtic post-Roman period. My connection between Godric and Arthur is there mostly because of the strong Arthurian references. We'll have to wait and see where JKR goes with it.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 12, 2004 7:38 pm (#691 of 2923)

Oh, no worries. =) You'd be amazed at the number of people who still think he should be somebody, and who think Mark should trail J.K. Rowling to Bolivia and get his life back.

As for the Arthur she's picked... yeah, she does look like she's using Le Morte..., but really, how much material would she have to use off A History of the Kings of Britain. Let's face it, Geoff didn't leave us nearly as much in the way of high romance and fantasy as Tommy boy did.

My recollection is that still puts Arthur in the wrong time period in relation to Godric Gryffindor, though.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 12, 2004 7:44 pm (#692 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 12, 2004 7:45 pm
I doubt King Arthur has anything to do with Harry Potter. Except for the occasional references to Merlin (He is Britain's greatest wizard, after all), there has been nothing, absolutely nothing.

Rowling is very big on sneaking hints of future things into previous books. That is the reason she gives for OoP being so long.

So I have difficulty believing the story of King Arthur has anything to do with the future of Harry Potter.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 12, 2004 8:07 pm (#693 of 2923)

Ditto.

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Aeoliano - Jul 12, 2004 8:37 pm (#694 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
In "Le Morte" the Roman empire was still around so I guess I agree with the mismatched timeline ...

In CS Lewis "That Hideous Strength" Merlin returns from his long slumber to fight "Britain" which has again risen in an attempt to conquer "England". Merlin speaks latin, knows lots of magic.. but is told that he is forbidden to use it!

I'm not sure Godrick Gryffindor would have spoken Latin?

-- A.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 12, 2004 9:51 pm (#695 of 2923)

Okay, at the risk of being off thread in answering Aeoliano's question, the short answer is "no". He wouldn't have (at least not in every day life). The longer answer, to give a little bit of background to those who are batting theories involving Godric Gryffindor and the goings on at the time of the founding of Hogwarts, is:

The Roman Empire was waning by the time it reached Britain, and pretty well in ruins by the time it was conquered by the Odoacer and the Visigoths (you can look at the Roman artifacts left over in Britain, such as the Antonine wall, as well as the general state of the empire at large) and its influence was semi-negligible, at least where it came to the language on the British Isles. As a result, early British languages were vested in the local dialects of the various peoples (the Welsh, the Irish, the Scottish, etc...).

The first major change to this came when four Germanic tribes (the Angles, Saxons, Frisians, and Jutes) invaded around the fifth century, causing the first unification of the language through the spreading of Old High German, which lead to the genesis of the language of Old English.

Latin and Greek would follow in the next five centuries, but due to internal policies of the Catholic Church, there was a desire to not have either language learned by the masses, so it stayed mostly within the church (I'll answer the why of that privately for those who wish to know).

The next major shift came after 1066, when the Norman French invaded Britain and disseminated a good bit of French into the language. However, as we know Hogwarts was probably founded before 994 A.D. (in 1994 the Sorting Hat says it was founded "a thousand years or more ago"), that wouldn't have been a factor...

While there wasn't a time in the history of Britain during those centuries that could be considered "quiet and peaceful", Britain was relatively secure at the point Hogwarts was founded. J.K. Rowling, having studied the classics, and by necessity history, would be well aware of this, so any events of the time which she chooses to include in her background will probably be focused inwardly on Britain itself... and as for Godric Gryffindor's choice of language, he was probably speaking something between Old and Middle English.

Oh yes, and just to toss a tidbit out there for the people fond of ancient history having a bearing on the upcoming books, Severus was the name of one of the last of the Roman Caesars.

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Aeoliano - Jul 12, 2004 10:11 pm (#696 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Hmmm.. well Andrew Buchanan you have it mostly right but you forgot some very important folks in your brief glimpse into history...

The vikings, norsemen, and they were also known as Normans. In 1066 a Viking king defended Britain from two invading armies, one from Sweden and the other from Normandy. All three were basically viking armies... he managed to defeat one but lost to the one from Normandy.. but I suppose we still see the Norse in our language.. Monday, (Moonday), Tuesday (Norse god Tues day, Wednesday (Wodin's day), Thursday (Thor's day), Friday (Freia's day), only Saturday would seem to have a Roman lineage.. and of course Sun's day.

The Vikings were great at commerce. They founded the city of Dublin, organize the squabbling Slavic tribes in Russia (Rus == red, Vikings again). A great deal of their commerce was with the Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantium. In order to appease them the Franks ceded Normandy to them.

I don't think this is entirely off-topic as some of JKR's imagery is sort of mythical norse. Wizards like Merlin, Giants, goblins, elves...

~evil grin~ sorry Peeves must have somehow possessed me...

--- A.

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 12, 2004 10:28 pm (#697 of 2923)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Actually, I believe that Godric would know Latin fairly well. Most learned men did in those times, even in Anglo Saxon areas. Another reason why is that magic spells and incantations have Latin roots, therefore one as learned would know the language of its origin. It was big news when writers began not using Latin when writing(like Chaucer). Godric's chances of being related to Author? Well, I am not sure. I think those names are put in for the familiarity of it. There is precious few theories for this HBP that actually make sense to me. Hagrid, a Slytherin, and Dean/Seamus seem too far fetched. In the running are: 1. Godric 2. N. E. charleton 3. Dumbledore 4. Riddle(long stretch)

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 12, 2004 11:20 pm (#698 of 2923)

For the record, I didn't forget them, I just didn't see where they'd be relevant to what are probably going to be very internal events. As I said, Britain was in a period of relative rest, and what J.K. Rowling has mentioned of history in Britain at the time seems to center on the conflict between every day British of the age and wizards, which would suggest the history we're going to see is the history motivated by the religions and superstitions of the day.

The Vikings, for their part, were mostly involved in "temporarily invading" the isles of Great Britain by making regular raids on the isles, not in setting up a ruling kingdom there. As a result, I think they could be classified more in the "major irritant" category than they could in the formative influence, especially when covering linguistic development, which was what my answer was geared toward.

As for the Normans, the gifting of the province of Normandy was a political compromise by the French king to avoid continued aggression in exchange for the recognition of French rule in the area. In any case, it must be remembered that the region was already settled and populated by the Gallic tribes, and as such any Scandinavian influence would have been tempered through the Gallic French of the time. In that manner, it tends to parallel the development of the Burgundy French through a fusion of Goth and Gallic tribes. As I said, though, the Normans didn't come until over seventy years after the founding of Hogwarts (and by the way their invasion constituted the last of the Viking invasion into Britain), I would imagine the development of French culture at the time bears little relevance to J.K. Rowling's background information on Hogwarts or the conflict between Godric Gryffindor or Salazar Slytherin.

What I do think is that J.K. Rowling will concentrate heavily on the conflicts of the age between the reigning muggle institution (the church) and the wizarding world, since contact between the two of them was (as she has noted) very negative. Indeed, so far the conflict between Slytherin and Gryffindor seems to hinge in no small part on the fact that Slytherin mistrusted muggle-borns and the negative attitude they had toward anything magical.

Sleeping Beauty, you're right that most learned men of the day had to learn at least Greek and Latin. However, we have to bear in mind that who was and wasn't allowed to be a learned man was very distinctly different back then, and there's a good chance that a wizard would fall into the part of society that wasn't allowed. I do imagine that he would know some Latin because all wizards seem to need to know some Latin in order to survive in the wizarding world (all their "silly wand waving" incantations are in Latin). There's a good chance he wouldn't have had any more than that basic working knowledge, however. We also have to bear in mind that Hogwarts was founded, in good part, to standardize wizarding knowledge, so it's not far fetched to think that the amount and areas of knowledge would have been inconsistent between the four founders of Hogwarts.

I think we're going off topic again, though... so in an effort to get back on topic, what do people think of the possibility of Snape being connected to the Half Blood Prince somehow? It could explain the... ummm... tension between his father and mother, plus you do have the fact his name is a royal name. Anyone else have any other evidence that would point to him?

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riddikulus - Jul 13, 2004 12:36 am (#699 of 2923)

I'm just so confused. I just read JK's site again, where she goes over Dean's history... she goes into great length about how he doesnt know if his father's a wizard or not... even though he said he was a muggle... there may be doubt about it, as he really doesn't know. He's not featured in CoS, but not sure he has to be.. perhaps something associated with the idea of him, is. I was so set on it being Hagrid... then there's the theories of Tom Riddle being different to Voldy, so perhaps its a symantics issue... then there's the new theories regarding Neville... hmmm it's interesting and plausable, but it seems a bit far fetched. Perhaps a Weasley? Ok, before I name every character throughout the series... I'll call it a day.

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Hollywand - Jul 13, 2004 3:35 am (#700 of 2923)

Gryffindor
Great arguments about all the different cultures merging in the British Isles and Normandy. I would put forth that all the elements intermingle with culture clash, very much like the Potter series. I think of educated (male, privileged) alchemists and astrologers who would know a Latin, and Old and New Testament prophecies,as well as heretical information. Midwife/witches and "cunning men" (uneducated, more of them female) using folk remedies from their native cultures, and adopting Christian elements into their remedies. Vikings like Harald Bluetooth who try to convert to Christianity but are murdered by their own for converting.

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 13, 2004 4:29 am (#701 of 2923)
Crazed Writer
Just got back to the discussion after a good night's sleep. Wow, OK, I agree, I was wrong, he couldn't be Arthur's son...but I still suspect either Arthur or Merlin is going to come into Gryffindor's background, because there are too many references to Le Morte d'Arthur and especially the legend of Percival and the Fisher King to ignore.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 13, 2004 4:33 am (#702 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 13, 2004 4:37 am
You know, this whole thing about the HBP being Hermione's kid or something, and the subsequent (and entirely right and reasonable) dismissal of such an idea sort of brings me to reflect on something: in the series, we have a couple of cases of patricide, lots of people being tortured, etc.---a lot of grown up, even taboo things, that have been admitted into a book about and widely read by kids. But then again---has anyone else ever noticed that either the whole trio are so totally engaged with being wizards to mention dropping voices and armpit hair and such---and that's probably best---or they still haven't hit puberty? But, for all the angsty teenagerness that rings true in Harry and the rest, it always rang a little false to me how totally, well, "pure" Harry's thoughts about girls have always been, and it's not just him. It just seems a little off that neither Ron nor Harry, being best male-friends, have never exchanged phrases like, "Dude, Harry, do you think Lavender is hot?" "Hotter than a salamander eating an extra-spicy burrito"---or the rough British equivalant. But, then again, maybe this isn't the thread for this observation. But maybe, in this book, Ron will one again notice Hermione is a girl.

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Magical Max - Jul 13, 2004 4:57 am (#703 of 2923)

I don't know about the Athurian legend meets the world of Harry Potter. Too many things would have to be connected to make it work and still you would end up with inconcisticies. JKR is trying to keep the size of the last two books down with just the main storyline - she doesn't need the extra chapters required to explain just where the heck Arthur and Merlin fit in.

What about the existence of another prophecy, one known by all in the WW. A prophecy that has descended into legend which states that when the WW is at it's darkest hour, the HBP will rise up and lead an army of light against the forces of evil.

Dumbledore knows this prophecy in full and has been for years preparing for the momemt of the prophecy's fulfilment. This would involve making sure all the conditions of the prophecy are met eg. all those mentioned in the prophecy must be still alive at the specified time.

This could explain why James and Lily were killed. Wormtail heard the prophecy from DD at a OotP meeting , realised that the prophecy was referring to Harry's family. The moment of betrayal was when He tells VM " My Lord, I know of whom the prophecy speaks of and where they live."

The grand irony is when VM tried to derail one prophecy by killing Harry, he started another prophecy which spoke of his destruction.

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therealscabbers - Jul 13, 2004 5:29 am (#704 of 2923)

Petra t
nah the harry prophecy was made before James and lily died, and they died because they got in the way of him killing Harry - his only target - had James and Lily stood aside and let him get harry they may have lived (prob not knowing voldie but you know what I mean)

THough a Legend about the hbp being well known in the ww may be a possability.

As for crookshanks - half breed not half blood!! there is a difference, Half blood seems to refer to anyone who is not pure blood (from one of the pure blood families that has never intermarried) or muggleborn so even though Harry was born to wizarding parents he is still considred half blood not say quarterblood. Which in turn means that the majority of people in the ww are half blood to their prince could be anyone!!

Also.... it has been mentioned that there is no royalty in the WW but if the HBP is a HB then whos to say he is not actually british royal - Wills perhaps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Crooky - Jul 13, 2004 6:40 am (#705 of 2923)

Hi everyone! I'm Anna and this is my first thread post (just want to say what a sensational site this is). My wand aim may be right off target, but has anyone considered Neville as the HBP? I haven't gone through the whole thread (hey, it's 11.34pm local time). Half blood may refer to the fact that the prince is not entirely of 'royal' blood, and not that they may be half pure blood, half muggle. Neville has had such an incredibly understated role until OotP. Consider the fact that Voldemort had either Harry or Neville to choose from. Apart from this, I think I would need to analyse all five books (again!), but I'm predominantly going from a gut feeling. Anyway, open to all to either fall about the floor in gails of laughter, or to ponder with a meaningful glint in their eye. Cheers A Wink

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 13, 2004 6:42 am (#706 of 2923)

I think the fact that J.K. Rowling goes to such great lengths to make up a separate world and not use real people or places and not use real ones would suggest the Half Blood Prince won't be a real person. It would go against the grain of the series for her to bring an actual historical figure into the mix.

I know I said I'm not speculating, but I think I can go out on a limb and say it won't be Prince William.

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Star Crossed - Jul 13, 2004 6:42 am (#707 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Welcome to the forum! It's unlikely, however, that Neville is the half-blood prince, since he's a pureblood.

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narisa - Jul 13, 2004 6:52 am (#708 of 2923)

How many theories have we got here? 1. Tom Riddle 2. Hagrid 3. Ginny 4. Godric 5. Dobby 6. New character 7. Not a person (a ghost or mirror or picture) 8. Mark 9. That Slytherin guy who see thestral 10.Neville 11. Dean or Seamus 12. Snape Is that all?

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contess lillein asend - Jul 13, 2004 7:50 am (#709 of 2923)

I am desperately in need of a place to unburden myself. I only started reading these books 3 months ago and have reread them so many times and have so many theories my head hurts. I will use the forum as a Pensieve of sorts to store my theories and get some feedback so I can think of something else besides Harry Potter.

Theory 1 - Harry Potter is a Metamorphagus (How else would your hair grow back overnight?). When we last left our hero he was deep in thought of being someone else (seems he was deep in thought about going to school with that horrible haircut also). Tonks told him he would have to learn the hard way. What if the hard way is waking up one morning and not recognizing yourself in the mirror. What if you can make yourself older. Maybe old enough to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts as say.....Rhett Rapyor. Do you think the Ministry can bust you for underage magic if your 40 years old at the time? OR - what if "finding your father in yourself" could have a whole new meaning.

Theory 2 - Came from Droobles Blowing Gum Anagram. Everyone has been talking about twins. What if Neville is Harry's twin? Say he was off at "Grandma Longbottoms" house when the Potter's were attacked. What if Frank Longbottom was his Godfather. Say Dumbledore decided to separate them, as Voldemort doesn't know there are two. He sent the marked twin to Petunia's to keep him safe in his mother's blood and sent the unmarked twin to his Godfather. Now the question is are they fraternal or identical? If fraternal no problem. If identical, you would have to put a charm on unmarked twin to make him not look like the marked twin. Would this make you clumsy and forgetful?

Then there is the prophesy. Could the unmarked twin be the " power that he knows not"? If so then "NEITHER could live while the other survives" would make sense.

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 13, 2004 8:28 am (#710 of 2923)

Crazed Writer
Contess, I noticed you posted this first on a new thread. I would suggest you go visit my "Long theory about Harry's family" under "Theories" if you want to discuss Harry and Neville being twins. The second part of my theory addresses that, so that's a good place for that discussion. The metamorphmagus thing...yeah, I've wondered that myself, but no real evidence yet. For that discussion, you might want to head over to the "Harry Potter" thread under "Hogwarts Students," or the "Predictions" section for the debate about what's going to happen in books 6 & 7.

Sorry to shuffle you around like this! :-)

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 13, 2004 8:33 am (#711 of 2923)

Hmmm... twins separated at birth to fight in the same conflict. I dunno. I think that might be another one of those "Star Wars" things, honestly.

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MrsGump - Jul 13, 2004 10:25 am (#712 of 2923)

And JKR has definately said "no living relatives" for Harry, yes? A twin would be a relative, so although it's interesting and one way to explain the wording of the Prophocey, it must not be true.

As for Harry's innocence with girls... he was locked in a closet and hardly even got to watch any TV, no adults interacting with him unless it's to order him to do chores, no friends because Dudley would beat them up if they were nice to Harry, then, as soon as he gets a real life with real friends, some maniac has been trying to kill him...

I'd say Harry is a little emotionally behind, which explains why the Cho crush was the puppy love kind of thing you'd associate with grade school kids and not 15 year olds. Not sure about Ron, other than we just don't "hear" the comments he makes to Harry since it's not vital to the plot. But Ron was more affected by the Veela than Harry was....

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Gemini12602 - Jul 13, 2004 10:25 am (#713 of 2923)

I don't know if I would like them to turn out being twins. It seems too far fetched even for Harry Potter. Just gotta wait and see. I do think he is a Metamorphmagus, but then... wouldn't his scar have disapeered all those times he sat there wishing people wouldn't star at it?

As far as their "feelings" about girls, it could just be implied. We know they use bad language because JKR says things like "Harry swore loudly" or "Ron said something that made Hermione give him an ugly look". These show that they are like alot of teenage boys, but because of the auidence the books are written for, and the fact that its really not necessary to hear it, we get statements like that.

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Kwikspell - Jul 13, 2004 10:32 am (#714 of 2923)

Marketers? Bah!
It's a good bet that Godric could speak Latin since the school's motto is in Latin (draco dormiens nunquam titillandus--I'm sure I spelled it incorrectly) and I'm guessing the four original founders came up with the motto.

Narisa, I think people were suggesting that Lupin might be the HBP at one time. I guess that would make him (unlucky, in Trelawney's eyes) #13. And maybe Salazar Slytherin himself. (Riddle was a half-blood and look how pure-blood crazy he became.) We're up to #14.

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Bluenote1313 - Jul 13, 2004 10:52 am (#715 of 2923)

About the Metamorphmagus-Harry theory, I think it is likely that he is one. Why hasn't he made his scar disappear? Up until he was 11 his scar was the only thing/reminder of his parents he had left. The Dursley's had no pictures for him and never talked about James and Lily. Seeing the scar in the mirror was his way of remembering (I think) Remember, he mad ehis hair grow back over night when Petunia cut it poorly, I think that along with the introduction of Tonks is meant to help us along on the theory that Harry possesses this gift.

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Angel of the North - Jul 13, 2004 10:52 am (#716 of 2923)

Tea, dammit
Given that Godric opened a school of Wizardry, I'd say it was a fair bet that he could communicate effectively in Latin.

The question for me is whether the wizarding peoples parallel the Jewish People of pre-twentieth century Europe?

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Nymphadora - Jul 13, 2004 11:08 am (#717 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 13, 2004 11:11 am
As much as I really enjoy all the historical analysis and the discussions that ensue, I also firmly believe that JKR created a new fantastic world (in all senses) for her stories. True, she has used many elements of existing myths, but they almost always have differences from what we know, or they wouldn't be hers - besides, for an educated person, it is almost impossible to avoid inspiration from what is already out there in lore and tradition. Furthermore, she did not create a new language for the WW (which would really take years and might not be as effective as in Tolkien's case), but used an ancient, dead language to create her spells with. These, and in general the research going behind her stories, suggest to me that we are dealing with a closed world that runs in parallel with the Muggle one, but the experience and history sharing is limited. So I do not think that the whole Arthurian legend will be brought in, more likely Godric will have many parallels with Arthur than be a relative of his; and our search for hints and clues should be within the stories, rather than in formal history (however many parallels there are with it).

My opinion, of course, and by all means, I'd never say stop theorising about everything (not if I did it would make any difference, of course Very Happy)

EDIT: Oh, and I also believe that Neville will be playing a role, but as a pureblood, and not as Harry's twin (really too extravagant, even for JK!). So, no, no Neville=HBP for me.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 13, 2004 11:16 am (#718 of 2923)

Maybe the Harry Potter story is a true story, and we think its fiction because we are only mere muggles? Hey... it could happen!! I do agree with Nymphadora, and thats kinda why I said that first part of my post. Because it does parallel what we could call "real life" One thing I thought was very interesting... in the first 3 books there are references made to Dudley playing computer games, then in the 4th book Harry mentions a "playstation" to Sirius. The 4th book takes place in 1994, and 1994 is when the playstation first came out. Just something I thought was kinda cool and interesting.

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Aeoliano - Jul 13, 2004 11:19 am (#719 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici

The Vikings, for their part, were mostly involved in "temporarily invading" the isles of Great Britain by making regular raids on the isles, not in setting up a ruling kingdom there. As a result, I think they could be classified more in the "major irritant" category than they could in the formative influence, especially when covering linguistic development, which was what my answer was geared toward.

Harald, the king of England/Britain at the time of the 1066 invasion was Viking king. He ruled most of the isle. Ireland was finally settled by the Vikings. It turns out that their reputation for having talent only for blood and gore was not true. They were great organizers and excellent merchants. They organized Ireland, founded the city of Dublin as a trading port. They were invited to do the same for the Slavs in Russia.

And Normandy was after all ruled by Viking kings... so...

I'm should think they would qualify as more than just a major irritant? Just my opinion...

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Courtney22 - Jul 13, 2004 11:37 am (#720 of 2923)

I like what Crooky said "Half blood may refer to the fact that the prince is not entirely of 'royal' blood, and not that they may be half pure blood, half muggle."

The term half Blood might be a red herring in that it has everyone thinking in terms of Wizard and muggle parentage. I Think its worth considering that there could be an instance where it could be a pureblood Wizard who is the HBP.

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Aeoliano - Jul 13, 2004 11:46 am (#721 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Actually, I believe that Godric would know Latin fairly well.

Yes you are right... but I guess I didn't phrase my quesion clear enough.. was Latin his native or default language? Not a second language used only by scholars and churchmen?

The Roman legions had devestated and conquered the entire isle by 100 AD. Not just the lower half. They just slowly retreated over time.. and built Hadrian's wall.. Latin was the language of Britain until the Angles, Saxons, and Juts arrived following a long retreat from the area between the Black Sea and the Caspian sea. They were fleeing the Huns.

But this all seems irrelevant as it is not the history conveyed in "Le Morte". Rome is an empire led by Roman Caesars in "Le Morte".

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Tomoé - Jul 13, 2004 12:40 pm (#722 of 2923)

Back in business
Latin was the offical language of Britain circa 100 to 500, but not the language of every Jack on the island. Same thing happened in 1066, William and his bunch ruled the island and spread their Anglo-Norman French, but French wasn't the language of the people. Now do the founders knew Latin? I'm sure Ravenclaw did. Were the spell used back then latin based or did that trend came later, circa 1500 perhaps? Only JKR knows.

We should continue this in the history of magic thread.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 13, 2004 12:52 pm (#723 of 2923)

Brilliant. I loved it. Not as off as my friends thought I was. Thanks for the insight.

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Stringer - Jul 13, 2004 1:18 pm (#724 of 2923)

Half-blood Prince could have a different meaning. I have a "half-sibling" same father, different mothers. It could be a similar situation. A Prince has a child with someone of royal lineage. This same prince has a son with a commoner. Could that child be a half-blood prince?

So pure blood wizard may have nothing to do with the title half-blood prince.

The only problem, royalty in the wizarding world has yet to be mentioned. Yet being the key word.....

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Hollywand - Jul 13, 2004 2:05 pm (#725 of 2923)

Gryffindor
The fact that Rowling would name Dumbledore's phoenix after the chap that conspired to blow up Parliament would indicate that she may have a surprise or two up her wizardly sleeves! :-)

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Raistlin - Jul 13, 2004 2:35 pm (#726 of 2923)

Hello, everyone. I have been gone for the last few weeks, and WOW! Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. A little tidbit from Rowling to tide us over. Part of my theory has been mentioned in passing. We know that HBP was supposed to be the original title of COS, but was changed. Additionally, the parts of the book deemed to reveal too much plot too early on were removed and slated for Book 6. Here's my theory: I believe the HBP will be someone with connections to the Muggle Royalty. After all, the series is set in 1990's England. The reason HBP was removed from COS was because a member (half-blooded) of the British Royal line, would feel obligated to inform his family of the impending doom of the return of Voldy. This would involve the muggle population too early in the series. I don't know where I got this, but I thought that the muggles would become more involved later in the series, because of the animosity of Voldy and the DE's. So, the HBP was removed to prevent a too soon expansion of the panic/conflict. As to why the HBP never reveals himself before now could be the natural reticence of a young man to differentiate himself from his peers. Or it could be that the royal family wants to keep this dirty little secret, well, secret. So, at the end of this huge post, I still have no idea WHO the HBP is, but I submit my theory to you for support, or bashing, as you see fit.

Raistlin

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 13, 2004 4:45 pm (#727 of 2923)

Crazed Writer
MrsGump,

Can you tell me in which chat, interview or website JKR said that Harry has no living relatives? I know Harry thinks he has no living relatives... I know she's said "Why would Dumbledore have sent Harry to live with the Dursleys if he was Harry's grandfather?", but I've never seen a statement from her that he has no living relatives, and I haven't been able to find one on the Internet.

Anybody?

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Aeoliano - Jul 13, 2004 5:04 pm (#728 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Yes tis true, other languages were spoken after conquests by foreign kings. But now I wonder about dialects. The wizarding community most certainly has a peculiar dialect with their own vocabulary. To me it seems as if they would by now have developed their own language... given the barrier erected betwen wizards and muggles? Then there are really ancient languages and alphabets such as the one used by the Basques. Perhaps all wizards from Europe speak Basque, since it is the closest thing to a very ancient middle earth language... ~smiles~

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 13, 2004 5:11 pm (#729 of 2923)

Okay, I'm not delving back into ancient British history, so onto the Round Pink Spider's question.

I don't believe J.K. Rowling has ever said Harry has no living relatives because it's obviously not true. He has Petunia and Dudley Dursley, who are both blood relatives of his. I'm pretty sure she's said he's the last of the Potters, however. She does this in SS/PS while Dumbledore and MacGonagall are talking at the Dursleys' while waiting for Hagrid to arrive with Harry. During the conversation, Dumbledore tells MacGonagall the Dursleys are the only family Harry Potter has left.

Also, at the end of Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore tells Harry that Petunia Dursley was the only living relative of Lily Evans (how did we all miss that when speculating about Mark Evans, I suddenly wonder). I think those two things put together suggest Harry has no other living family besides Petunia and Dudley.

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Aeoliano - Jul 13, 2004 5:12 pm (#730 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Maybe the half-blood prince is Dudley Dursley? It could happen ~laugh~ I suspect Dean Thomas (Gary) might be the HBP. JKR has placed him front-and-center in her extra tid-bits sections on her website. I guess many have already voiced that opinion ... he certainly does seem to at least make a prime suspect.

-- A.

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 13, 2004 5:14 pm (#731 of 2923)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Wouldn't that be something. Prince Ickle Diddikins. I love it.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 13, 2004 5:38 pm (#732 of 2923)

Hehehe... I had suggested something like that a while ago. After all, if he's just playing a bit part throughout the series, why would it be important what he sees when a Dementor attacks him?

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 13, 2004 5:51 pm (#733 of 2923)

Crazed Writer
Yeeechh. All that obnoxious brat needs now is a crown.

Dumbledore saying that Harry is the last of the Potters is not the same as JKR saying it. As I pointed out in "Long Theory," Dumbledore didn't know that the Potters had switched secret keepers from Sirius to Peter. Although Dumbledore is JKR's primary vehicle for revealing information, she hasn't made him omniscient.

And although it's a fine point, Dumbledore was talking about people who could raise Harry. He had his own reasons for putting Harry with the Dursleys, reasons he didn't reveal to Prof. McGonagall at that time. I'm not saying he lied to Prof. McGonagall, but it seems he knew why Harry survived Voldemort's attack (otherwise he wouldn't have insisted on Harry living with the Dursleys); and yet he said "We can only guess...We may never know" when she asked him how Harry survived.

If Dumbledore refrained from giving that secret information to Prof. McGonagall, he wouldn't have told her any other sensitive information either. Remember, Dumbledore knew that there was still a traitor at large in the Order.

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Aeoliano - Jul 13, 2004 7:52 pm (#734 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Guess we'll find out fast in book 6... JKR predicts that Harry's stay will be short on Privet Drive and I expect the newly out-of-control dementors to be there to at least get to Harry's aunt but of course anyone else would be fair game ... Voldemorte must now know that Harry's aunt is the key to his protection outside of Hogwarts. And the Dementors have shown that they aren't really affected by much outside of really excellent Patronus's. Hmmm.. wasn't Patronus the Roman hero who Dante extols because he committed suicide for a patriotic cause? Ends up guarding the gate to il Purgatorio? Yikes that is a scary thought!!!!

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Aeoliano - Jul 13, 2004 8:09 pm (#735 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Oooops I think it was this guy... : What one-eyed Roman hero held off an enemy army while his comrades destroyed the bridge behind him? Publius HORATIUS Cocles

Expecto PatronusI guess just means expect a protector... (not really father). The word client comes from this. In Roman times a Patronus was a Patrician who placed Plebians under his protection.

Whewww... that was a very scary thought....

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Chemyst - Jul 13, 2004 8:15 pm (#736 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
RPS,
In PoA, chapter 1, page two of the Scholastic paperback, it reads: Uncle Vernon, Aunt Petunia, and their son, Dudley, were Harry's only living relatives.
This is given as narrative, it's not Harry's speculation or belief based on what he has been told or not told by the Dursleys.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 13, 2004 8:18 pm (#737 of 2923)

Good find Chemyst. The only thing I can figure is if because Harry believes it, then thats what we know, and believe and what gets put in that part. But I still believe that is the truth.

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doodle's mom - Jul 13, 2004 8:23 pm (#738 of 2923)

What about Snape being the HBP? What do we know of his heritage?

Doesn't JKR say on her sight that the HBP is NOT harry and is NOT Voldemort? Wouldn't that rule out Tome Riddle?

It couldn't be malfoy (he is pure blood), but it could be Seamus Finnagan.

Any thoughts on that?

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 13, 2004 8:25 pm (#739 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
I'd like to comment on a couple of things. First, I do not think Harry is a metamorphmagus. Too much has been made about how he looks so much like James, but has Lilly's eyes. It is Harry's last connection to his parents. While Harry might want to metamorph his scar away, I don't think he'd ever want to change how he looks (except maybe to get his hair to lay flat when Cho was around). It is interesting though. We learned about animagi to set-up Sirius as the Grim and Peter as Scabbers. I wonder if Metamophmagi will have some significance. I personally think it is a red-herring, but who knows. I really doubt it will be Harry though if it becomes important.

Also, I had thought of the idea of half-blood reffering to half-royal in connection with Draco a few hundred posts ago. Some of my story surrounding it is quite fanciful, but I thought it was interesting. See post #390. Other people could work as well. I am glad others are liking the idea now of half-bllod meaning half-royal blood.

Finally, I think it would be tough to make a list of the possibilities for HBP. You can pretty much go to "Which Wizard" on the lexicon and call that the list. Almost every male character has been mentioned in some way or the other, even the pure-bloods. I have also heard some witches hypothesized. The only person who everyone seems universally sure is not the HBP is Harry.

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Aeoliano - Jul 13, 2004 9:40 pm (#740 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Surely the mention of Merlin, Arthur.. and this:

Hengist of Woodcroft Hengist was a Saxon King of Britain shortly before King Arthur's time, who helped King Vortigern defeat Scot and Pict rebels. Later, he led a rebellion of his own, and eventually founded the county of Kent. Quite what this has to do with wizardry, I don't know, but David Colbert offers a similar suggestion in his book, "The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter." (contributed by Adrian Allum)

would make one assume that the British wizarding community are subjects of and loyal to the reigning monarch of England?

Now a prince is quite another thing.. there are many possible princes... they are small duchies which may have been or are ruled by princes. Monaco for example.

There could possibly exist, in the whizzard wurld, somewhere like the dutchy of eccles cakes... sigh.. I wish I could get to that dutchy right now... ~sigh~

-- A.

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narisa - Jul 14, 2004 1:49 am (#741 of 2923)

Could we please stop King Arthur things, especially the real history of British. Because I don't understand it. I am quite sure I am not the only person who know nothing about the king except that he was in England and that legend about pulling a sword out of a stone. Let's back to the Harry Potter book.

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shepherdess - Jul 14, 2004 2:10 am (#742 of 2923)

55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Narisa,

I understand exactly how you feel; there have been many times that discussions here have become so deep, they were way over my head (you should have read the thread we had discussing exactly how, scientifically and biologically, the Avada Kedavra curse kills-whew!).

I figure I have two options: 1)skip over any posts (or an entire thread) that I don't understand; or 2)read through them, even though I may not really understand everything I'm reading. I generally choose to read them. And by doing so, I have learned many things I never knew before. It has been a rewarding experience, and I'm glad I made that choice.

So feel free to skip over anything that doesn't interest you; but you'll be missing out if you do.

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therealscabbers - Jul 14, 2004 2:45 am (#743 of 2923)

Petra t
"I know I said I'm not speculating, but I think I can go out on a limb and say it won't be Prince William" Andrew Buchanan

HEHE was a complete joke - the thories are getting more and more obsurd I thought I'd through that one in!!

As for Dudly being the HBP well can you imagine what he would say if he found out that he was part of the wizarding world - he'd freak he is terrified of wizards, and so would have to go against all his feelings for Harry and rely on Harry to help him through! what a wonderfully humbling expereience that would be. Actually cant help wondering if in the first few chapters of book 6 we will see him have a hidden heart to heart with harry about the dementor attack - not where anyone else could see/hear them of course and he will threaten to beat Harry to a pulp if he tells anyone!

- dont for a minute really believe Dudly is the HBP by the way, nor do I believe it is wills or harry!!

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therealscabbers - Jul 14, 2004 3:11 am (#744 of 2923)

Petra t
I was just reading one of the interviews with JKR and she said this It's not true at all, but I'm not gonna tell you the title because I'm a bit superstitious about that; I like to keep it a secret until the book's finished

does that mean it is already finished?!! so just the editing publishing and printing to go!! Smile

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 14, 2004 3:13 am (#745 of 2923)

Three quick thoughts: Firstly - the wording "Half Blood Prince". It has a similar ring to "Prisoner of Azkaban". Think of "The Man In The Iron Mask." Could the half blood prince be a name given to cover up the reality of who they person is so we do not realise their importance?

Secondly - the title is similar to a certain portrait that covers the door of a common room. Could the title be a portrait? The wizarding equivalent of the Laughing Cavalier (the Fat Lady being Hogwart's own Mona Lisa)?

Thirdly - I don't believe that the Half Blood Prince is Hagrid. But we must remember J K Rowling's use of myths and legends. The Tower of London is supposed to have been built by the giant Bran. So there is the possibility there.

But to the King Arthur issue. JKR knows here myths. She has used bits from the legends of King Arthur and others right through the books. May be this is why so many adults love them. The books have two levels, the story and the hidden references. This is why she screams at the Star Wars ideas. Give JKR full marks for subtlty, she's not that obvious.

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Star Crossed - Jul 14, 2004 4:33 am (#746 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Alright, to go back a few posts, and off who the HBP is (*coughGodriccough* Razz)

As for Harry being metamorphmagus, I don't think so. First off, he gets more rare powers. I think he has enough. Also, the only time Harry changed his appearance was his accidental magic, and it was only hair. It was probably just a hair-growth spell. If you look back at the other accidental magic he did, it's not that surprising. He has apparated (When he apparated onto the roof to hide from Dudley's gang). He has turned his teachers' wig blue. He has shrunk a sweater. And this was all before he even started Hogwarts and knew about magic.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 14, 2004 6:27 am (#747 of 2923)

Round Pink Spider,

Is it Dumbledore's words she is going by. He said that Harry had no other living relatives. But if James did not tell him about the secret keeper switch, maybe he doesn't know about the twin? Or maybe he is that secret keeper and could not reveal it.

Do you think "essence divided" is referring to between the twins?

Let me know

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 14, 2004 7:34 am (#748 of 2923)

Ok, so when HBP starts, Harry, Hermione, and Ron will be 6th years. Fred, George, and Lee Jordan will be gone. My question is the following: Who are the 7th year Gryffindor boys? Girls? For that matter who are the Gryffindors below the trio, besides Ginny and the Creevy brothers? Are there names that I have missed or is the HBP going to have to introduce some "new" characters?

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Doris Crockford - Jul 14, 2004 8:57 am (#749 of 2923)

Loopy Lupin, Katie will be a 7th year Gryffindor girl. There are also some kids mentioned at the Sorting who haven't been reintroduced (like Euan Abercrombie, who was introduced in OoP and who ran away from Harry after the Feast but hasn't been seen since), who could come into play. And the two Beaters, Kirke and Sloper could reappear. They're probably younger.

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haymoni - Jul 14, 2004 10:29 am (#750 of 2923)

Prefect Marcus started a thread and it was suggested that the topic be moved here. I waited to see if he would try again but since he has not and I thought it was a good topic, I will start it.

His question was something like - "What are you looking forward to in the next book "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince"? It was not supposed to be preditions - it was more like what questions would you like to have answered or what will you be looking for when you read Book 6?

Marcus had quite a few and I am not attempting to remember his, but mine were:

- What caused Harry to have his "shortest stay at Privet Drive yet"?

- What did Dudley experience during the dementor attack?

- What did Gran Longbottom say after Neville's MOM experience?

- How do Neville's magical abilities change after his MOM experience and getting a new wand?

- What more does Luna bring to the story?

- Did Luna and her father find the Crumpled thingies?

- Do Draco and the other Nibblers return to Hogwarts?

- Enter Narcissa!

- Does Percy eat crow?

- How is business for Fred & George?

- Does Pansy eat crow?

- Is Umbridge still affected by her centaur experience?

- Does Harry grill Petunia, Dumbledore, and Lupin for details about his parents?

- How bad is the War?

- What will the Muggles notice?

Anyone else?

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Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:46 pm

contess lillein asend - Jul 14, 2004 10:34 am (#751 of 2923)
Also on the twin thing, Explains emphasis on James is good at transfiguration and Lili is good at charms.

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Stringer - Jul 14, 2004 11:31 am (#752 of 2923)

These are some of the questions I'm wondering about book 6:

I'm wondering if the Slytherin house members who's father's were sent to Azkaban return to Hogwarts.

I'd also like to know if they lose some of their notoriety. Assuming the Malfoy family will no longer have an in with the MOM or the Hogwarts school board.

Will there be extra security measures placed on the school and students? Hogsmeade trips could be cancelled, along with Quidditch.

Will Petunia's fear of Voldermort bring her closer to Harry?

What will the two way mirror show-J.K. mentioned in an interview we would see it again.

What happens to Grimwald place and Kreacher?

Why was Lockhart reintroduced to us?

How did Dumbledore get Umbridge out of the forest, and more importantly, why did he bother?

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 14, 2004 11:34 am (#753 of 2923)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
Why bother with Umbridge? I like that one. Well DD has a tendency to be decent and do the right thing. I would of left her there to rot, but then I am not that benevolent a person.

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Stringer - Jul 14, 2004 11:39 am (#754 of 2923)

I guess in all honesty Dumbledore respects the centaurs, and didn't want to burden them with her. She probably wasn't sweet enough for Aragogs children to devour either. I'm assuming there is a place for her in the magic community, maybe she could be the wicked witch of the west in muggle plays.

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MrsGump - Jul 14, 2004 12:17 pm (#755 of 2923)

How did the brains affect Ron?

Do we go back to 12GMP?

What's the deal with Harry having Lily's eyes? (although not really expecting an asnwer until #7)

What's Grawp been up to? And why bother with him?

What has Hermione been writing to Krum?

Are Bill and Fleur still dating? We'll we get to see a Weasley Wedding?

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Joelle - Jul 14, 2004 12:39 pm (#756 of 2923)

Ok A few things

severus snape being the hbp would rock- however isnt he pureblood? since he thought lily could do better than james?

harry and tom riddle are so out of the running --i think that the essence divided comment meant voldemort trying to possess harry. he was entering harry's mind, hence the snake that split. the comment about niether can live while the other survives, i think means that niether voldemort or harry can fully experience life (in voldemorts case fully regain his power)

as for the other people that we have thought of im not so sure. and i really like the idea that hbp echoes the prisoner of azkaban

and whats this i hear about the order not really being the order to defend agains voldemort?

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 14, 2004 12:45 pm (#757 of 2923)

severus snape being the hbp would rock- however isnt he pureblood?-- Joelle

I don't know that we know this for sure from anywhere. And, as far as "Tom Riddle" being out of the running, there is some debate about it. Some would say that there is a distinction between TR and Voldemort. I don't think that would be a very fair distinction from JKR.

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Aeoliano - Jul 14, 2004 12:52 pm (#758 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
I am still looking for the Dutchy of Eccles cakes... I am certain they must have a prince? ~smiles~ but I think he would be at least a quarter "currants".

"therealscabbers": "Its not True", please 'splain.. I don't understand that! What's not true?

-- A.

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Danielle Hill - Jul 14, 2004 12:52 pm (#759 of 2923)

Does anyone think that maybe viktor krum could be the HBP?

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Aeoliano - Jul 14, 2004 1:07 pm (#760 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Viktor Krum? Hmmmm Krum reminds me of eccles cakes...

I think it most certainly is a very real possibility. But I think I read an earlier post asserting that JKR has almost certainly said that he must be British? But I'm not sure. I often get confused when people quote JKR's interviews and online chats.

--A.

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Hollywand - Jul 14, 2004 1:57 pm (#761 of 2923)

Gryffindor
I liked the thread on Nearly Headless Nick, his aristocratic execution, and his connection with the Deathday Party nearly next to the Chamber. If Nearly Headless, why not the Half-Blood? And a the ghosts a part of the Hog War(ts)?

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Ozymandias - Jul 14, 2004 5:41 pm (#762 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
I definitely think that Nick will play a part in the events surrounding the HBP. However, I don't think he'll be it, because (and correct me if I'm wrong) his title as "Sir" means that he's not royalty.

My guess is that he knows who the HBP is (Godric) and will give this information to the the trio (and Ginny, who is the Heir of Gryffindor, but that belongs in another thread.)

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 6:23 pm (#763 of 2923)

Crazed Writer
Contess,

On the forum, we're really supposed to stick to the topic of the thread. The subject of Harry, Neville, and twins isn't currently on topic for this thread, so it'd probably be best to post to the "Long Theory about Harry's Family" thread. I started it, so you can be sure I'll read your posts there. I'm going to repost your questions there, and answer them. :-)

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Land of the Shire - Jul 14, 2004 8:58 pm (#764 of 2923)

Stringer writes on July 14th (italicized for convenience)

These are some of the questions I'm wondering about book 6:

I'm wondering if the Slytherin house members who's father's were sent to Azkaban return to Hogwarts.

Most likely they will. Even if their families are disgraced, Hogwarts is still the best wizarding boarding school in England (it's never mentioned if it is the only one however - it just says it's the most prestigious).

I'd also like to know if they lose some of their notoriety. Assuming the Malfoy family will no longer have an in with the MOM or the Hogwarts school board.

I'm looking forward to seeing Draco again, and that's a first.

Will there be extra security measures placed on the school and students? Hogsmeade trips could be cancelled, along with Quidditch.

Let's hope Harry does not bring out his invisibility cloak.

Will Petunia's fear of Voldermort bring her closer to Harry?

I do hope so - I have always thought that Petunia will become that person who first performs magic "late in life."

What will the two way mirror show-J.K. mentioned in an interview we would see it again.

That I have no idea.

What happens to Grimwald place and Kreacher?

I imagine 12 Grimauld place will continue to be the headquarters of the Order - it's still a great hideout. I think we'll see more of Kreacher.

Why was Lockhart reintroduced to us?

I thought I had read in an interview with JKR that she was not planning on reintroducing him. I'm sure it was to provide some (much-needed) comic relief after the attack on Arthur Weasley.

How did Dumbledore get Umbridge out of the forest, and more importantly, why did he bother?

I'm sure even Centaurs know not to mess with Dumbledore. As for why he bothered, isn't it just the right thing to do? SO what if she's cruel and evil and doesn't deserve to be rescued? It's still wrong to abandon a fellow human being (although here, I concede, I use the term loosely).

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The Niffler - Jul 14, 2004 10:17 pm (#765 of 2923)

Here's one that I don't think has been mentioned yet. "Half Blood Prince" could refer to someone who comes from a Slytherin pure blood family on one side and a Gryffindor pure blood family on the other side. It's possible, since the pure blood families are all closely linked. And this person could have something important to do with the unity of the houses, or Voldy and Harry ... oh, I don't know. You guys can speculate for me Smile

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Aeoliano - Jul 14, 2004 10:38 pm (#766 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Stringer writes on July 14th (italicized for convenience)

These are some of the questions I'm wondering about book 6:

"I'm wondering if the Slytherin house members who's father's were sent to Azkaban return to Hogwarts. "

I susspect that there is a law not unlike the truancy laws whcih states that young wizards must be trained by an accredited school or they lose the privilege of owning and wielding a wand! One cannot help but note what happend to Hagrid when he lost the privilege to continue his education and graduate.

I'd also like to know if they lose some of their notoriety. Assuming the Malfoy family will no longer have an in with the MOM or the Hogwarts school board.

If JKR emulates the real world... well if the dark whizzards, the "death eaters" have now persuaded the dementors and giants to join... well that is power and some people err whizzards will certainly respect or bow to such power.. I suspect that the notoreity and influence of Malfory and company might rise.

Will there be extra security measures placed on the school and students? Hogsmeade trips could be cancelled, along with Quidditch.

This would only exacerbate the feeling of powerlessness against the likes of Voldemorte and the death eaters. In American during WWII Franklin Roosevelt was advised to erect concrete barriers and to close the public monuments in Washington. One must recall that this was a president who was stricken and disabled with polio. He spent most of his time in a wheelchair and often required two people on either side to hold him up during public appearances and speeches. He was an easy target. He said, "Doing that is not what it means to be an American. Public monuments must stay open and accessible to every American". And in Britain they did not close schools and outings because of bombs from bombers, V1 rockets, or V2 rockets. Oh well... I digress... perhaps that generation should be known as the "Patronus" generation. Now, that would most certainly scare the bejeebers out of Voldemorte.

Will Petunia's fear of Voldermort bring her closer to Harry?

She seems quite the co-dependent and her relationship with Harry's uncle Vernon seems to almost always have that characteristic. So, I would say no.

What will the two way mirror show-J.K. mentioned in an interview we would see it again.

As Viktor Frankl described, the way to meaning is through responsibility. Freedom without responsibiiity is really just a sort of mirage. I think Harry will note how he has matured and the great responsibility he now bears will weigh upon him... but then he will realize that he would not have it any other way. He has found profound meaning in his life.

What happens to Grimwald place and Kreacher?

I think it will no longer be used as a hideout for the order. There is no longer any need to hide their activities from the MoM. However, it may provide intelligence as a sort of mirror on the activities of Voldemorte and the deatheaters.

Why was Lockhart reintroduced to us?

I think perhaps as a way of introducing the concept of mental disorders to children (and adults). Some may actutally be able to return to society, but all struggle to find their way and their place.

How did Dumbledore get Umbridge out of the forest, and more importantly, why did he bother?

I think the centaurs are not as bad as Umbridge and some wizards are led to believe. I think they were just expressing their unhappiness with Hagrid and his brother, the transgressions of their boundaries, and the suppressioin of their culture.

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Dr Filibuster - Jul 14, 2004 11:51 pm (#767 of 2923)

Sue, from Northwich, England.
Some interesting thoughts on here. "the patronus generation"

Land of the Shire, I agree with your comments. Sorry to nit-pick, but Hogwarts isn't the best school in England....because it's not in England, it's in Scotland. True, it doesn't specify that in the books but it has been confirmed in interviews with JKR.

I wonder what extra privileges the 6th years will have.

They will be able to access the restricted section of the library to study for their NEWTs, but surely there will be something more. In the British muggle world there is a huge difference between 5th versus 6th/7th years at secondary school. What will they be able to do that will further the plot?

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Crooky - Jul 15, 2004 1:18 am (#768 of 2923)

Considering the 'on alert for war' status the wizarding world was left in at the end of OotP, I want to know who they're going to get as the new DADA teacher. I'm sure Dumbledore is keenly aware the need to develop any required skills that Harry, Neville or any other OofP potential member would require.

I doubt that Dumbledore will allow a fiasco of Umbridge proportions to taint the post again, but I'm at a loss as to whom they will get to fill the position. Any suggestions?

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therealscabbers - Jul 15, 2004 1:56 am (#769 of 2923)

Petra t
Sorry just where I cut and pasted it - she was talking about PoA and said she was not going to give the title of GoF because she had not finished it yet and she was superstitious about giving the title until she had finished the book.

so the "it's not true" bit bares no relation at all to HBP

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therealscabbers - Jul 15, 2004 2:11 am (#770 of 2923)

Petra t
Now I am going out on a limb here re the DADA position, I am wondering if DD will finally agree to let Snape have the job - now dont start throwing things at me (ducks) let me explain.

we know DD trusts Snape and holds his abilities in DADA in high regard (occlumancy) and now Voldamort is back DD is aware they need the best teacher they can get, not only that but somone who knows all there is to know about how Voldemort works, the curses he uses etc. because lets face it now it is not so much DADA but DAV (defence against Voldamort) So given this wouldnt it make sense the person who has most knowledge about how Volde works is a reformed death eater.

Also it would strengthen Snapes position as a kind of Double agent - I believe the reason he was able to return to the Death Eater fold (without being killed) was by telling Voldie that he would be a useful spy for him within the order, and what better way to convinve Voldie that he is well in with DD than to get the "top" job.

I am not saying Snape is a spy just that Voldie thinks he is, Snape can feed wrong infomration to Voldie and put him off course allowing the order the element of surprise.

EG in the run up to the Dday landings there was a double agent in England feeding information to the germans that they would be landing on a different day on a different beach - this meant that the germans would guard the wrong beach allowing the Brits to land and take France back from them. I think this is Snapes Role.

So what do you think?

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 15, 2004 2:42 am (#771 of 2923)

What has Hermione been writing to Krum? Oh nice thought, could Hermione accidently give something away by here letters being intercepted?

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Fawkes Forever - Jul 15, 2004 5:44 am (#772 of 2923)

Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Intercepted by Pig..... hee hee

Opps... didn't mean to start a huge debate on King Arthur & Merlin, it was just one of those many thoughts running through my head that day.

These days I'm thinking that the HBP could be a European Prince.

One thing I'm interested in seeing in this book, is what happens after Ron turns 17 in March? I wonder will they actually address his birthday this time round, & will it show him performing magic outside of school?

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Crooky - Jul 15, 2004 5:57 am (#773 of 2923)

Petra, I can't see the Dumbledore will put Snape into the DADA position. Althought he's obviously trusted by Dumbledore, Snape's exclusion from the job from the start must be for some reason. Given Snape's fascination for all things dark, I just can't see this happening. I also think that Harry needs to be supported in his DADA study, it's too important for the role he will play in book 7. I also don't know whether changing his teaching position will value add in his facade with Voldie's lot.

It's obvious that Lupin would not be returned (pity - he's just divine as a teacher/mentor) due to his 'slight' affliction. Mad-Eye's unlikely as he's had too much bad press in the Daily Prophet (but he's a slight possibility). Perhaps JKR will be introducing some other new character. I may be going out on a limb here, but I was wondering whether Harry has a godmother. I find it odd that there has been no mention of a person filling this role - surely Lily would have had a female friend who would have filled this role (who was the girl sitting behind Sirius who was avidly staring at while he was doing his DADA OWL?). Am I rambling? Sorry I had a bad night last night. Hmmm, better do some more pondering.....

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Chemyst - Jul 15, 2004 6:02 am (#774 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
...Snape can feed wrong information to Voldie - therealscabbers
That would be lethal for dear Severus. For his own survival, he must give correct and accurate information, but do it in such a way and with such omissions that the Dark Lord neither suspects nor benefits.

And a wandering thought on the HBP: Aren't there British subjects all over the world? JKR could have a wizard prince from far off returning to the motherland in a time of need....

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therealscabbers - Jul 15, 2004 6:33 am (#775 of 2923)

Petra t
Well, I cant remember the exact phrasing at the end of GoF when DD tells Snape "to do what he has to do" but I do remember getting the impression that it would be dangerous - Voldamort himself said of the missing death eaters that one had gone forever and would of course die - sure he was refering to Snape - so what made Voldermort believe Snape was still on his side despite being so close to DD? Snape must have had somthing to offer him?

I agree that if he is found out Snape is a dead man, but with his talent for Occlumancy he can hide things from even Voldemort which gives him some level of safety.

Oh and yes there are subjects all over the world - but not hiers, these are def blood relatives only - normally first son is the only heir, if no son is born then it goes to the first daughter

eg if Prince Wills had been wilomina, PrinceHarry would be heir. Think that still stands? Elizabeth became Queen because she had no brother

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Catherine - Jul 15, 2004 6:47 am (#776 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Chemyst, I've also wondered if the HBP could be a wizard living abroad, whether British or otherwise.

Dumbledore emphasized the need for stronger international wizarding ties in GoF, and Charlie stayed in Romania to recruit foreign wizards into the Order.

Hermione has mentioned her holiday in France a few times, and I found it interesting that Olympe and Hagrid went through Dijon, and Hermione mentions in OoP that she also went there, begins to ask Hagrid if he saw something, but then she stops. Whenever there's an interruption in the novels, I start to think, "Hmmmm."

(Note to TheRealScabbers: Queen Elizabeth became queen after her half-brother Edward died, and her older sister Mary died, not because she did not have a brother.)

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Crooky - Jul 15, 2004 6:54 am (#777 of 2923)

I think that maybe JKR's references to France are due to familiarity, having spend a year there after finishing her studies in French at university. Whoever the prince is, I think they'll probably be British as JKR is fairly adamant in keeping most of the characters British.

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Chris. - Jul 15, 2004 6:55 am (#778 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I thought it was the eldest child of the Queen that became the Heir.

I don't think it will be someone of a different nationality. JKR said on her site that because the series revolved around a British boarding school, she was going to keep the characters British, with exceptions of Durmstrang and Beauxbatons.

Anyone thought about Krum?...

EDIT: Crooky posted just when I was writing. They said mostly what I thought.

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Madame Kulich - Jul 15, 2004 8:14 am (#779 of 2923)

I think Ferenzie (sp?) will be the next DADA teacher. Trelawney will be back and well, they can't have two teachers, and he can't go back to the forest. As for the HBP, I think it is a character that we haven't been introduced to at all.

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Star Crossed - Jul 15, 2004 8:57 am (#780 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I don't think, no matter how much we try, that we will guess the DADA professor for HBP. The professor is never introduced before the book in which he teaches.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 15, 2004 10:00 am (#781 of 2923)

I know Ron turns seventeen, and that has a bit of significance in the wizarding world, but it doesn't do a lot for the books, believe it or not. I mean, as long as he's at Hogwarts, he's allowed to do magic anyway, for the adventures "The Trio" have outside Hogwarts, they pretty much just ignore that rule that says they can't do magic, and we don't really see a whole lot happening outside the Hogwarts school year. It might come in useful a bit at the beginning of Book 7, but I'm also going to guess that by then, there won't be any owls from Mafalda Hopkirk if Harry decides to blow up another aunt or send Patronuses cantering right down the lawn of Buckingham Palace.

As for Firenze being a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, I don't see that one happening for one simple reason. He really wouldn't have anything majorly useful to train seven different years worth of wizards. I mean, the Centaurs are supposed to be wonderful at Divination. That's where their talents lie... but they don't use wands, they don't have experience with the kinds of spells wizards use, the countercurses for those spells, the kinds of poisons wizards might employ, etc., if for no other reason than they choose not to be involved with human beings. Granted, they are supposed to have a knack for healing, but that's of little use during a battle, and I don't think they're going to convince most wizards to take up archery instead of spellwork.

So no, I don't see Firenze (or any other Centaur) being a viable choice for Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, unless there's something very big about Centaurs that hasn't been revealed to us in any of the books.

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strix - Jul 15, 2004 11:29 am (#782 of 2923)

Catherine Allen: I think therealscabbers meant Elizabeth II, who became Queen because her father had no sons (and who became King because his brother abdicated, but that's a different story). Sweden has changed the law, and the oldest child is heir to the throne, irrespective of the sex. In Great Britain, the law is still male primogeniture: Daughters only inherit the throne in the absence of brothers.

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Danielle Hill - Jul 15, 2004 11:59 am (#783 of 2923)

I don't know...it's just that everyone seems to be overlooking him as a possibility and I am pretty sure that he will make another appearance. AND she did bring him up again in book 5...I only hope that if he returns he will be one of the good guys!

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Stringer - Jul 15, 2004 12:46 pm (#784 of 2923)

Land of Shire & Aeoliano- Thanks for your opinion.

I am still curious about Malfoy's reaction to his father's disgrace. I'm wondering if he will be abashed, or proud of his father. I remember the way his father treats him, kind of with annoyed tolerance. I would find it interesting if Draco did rebel against his father through emberassment. I'm not suggesting that he and Harry would become great friends, but I could see a tolerance similar to Snape and Sirius.

As for security I can see Dumbledore taking a similar view as did Roosevelt. As Hermione reminds us- fear of the name only increases fear of the thing itself (something along those lines). I doubt Dumbledore would want Voldermort to think he was at all intimidated by him. I suppose that is why he calls him Tom, so Voldie will remember Dumbledore knows who he truly is.

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Catherine - Jul 15, 2004 12:53 pm (#785 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Strix and TheRealScabbers,

Many blushes! Of couse! I am off to iron my hands, but will offer apologies first for misunderstanding! (Smacks head with hand) How could I have forgotten the current monarch of Britain? Guess looking backward into my medieval/Renaissance studies have blinded me to the present!

Scurries off to do extra punishments before actually ironing hands...

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haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 12:54 pm (#786 of 2923)

We've already seen his reaction in OotP - he told Harry that he would pay for putting Lucius in Azkaban.

He's not upset with Lucius - I'm sure he's known what his father was all along (forest scene in GOF). He is just mad that Harry got the best of him again.

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mischa fan - Jul 15, 2004 4:32 pm (#787 of 2923)

Easy being green, it is not
Stringer, it was Dumbledore who said, "Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself." It is only in the movies did Hermione say that.

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 15, 2004 6:12 pm (#788 of 2923)

Yes, and in the first movie Hermione said Voldemort. (Whereas the fifth book made it quite clear that she had never said Voldemort before...)

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 15, 2004 8:18 pm (#789 of 2923)

I think there's a simpler reason Dumbledore calls Voldemort Tom Riddle. Because that's his name and that's the name Voldemort and Dumbledore's relationship developed under.

I mean, Dumbledore was his teacher and spent seven years calling him "Tom". Why would he see fit to change what he calls him because Tom Riddle decided he needed a nickname?

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Crooky - Jul 15, 2004 9:10 pm (#790 of 2923)

I'm just going back to one of my earlier posts (705) on this thread regarding who the HBP is. I was refering to the possibility that Neville may be the HBP due to the fact that half royal blood may be due to royalty and commoner blood being mixed. I've just found something in CoS (Australian edition) on page 89. It's where Ron is bringing up the slugs. He says "Dirty Blood, see. Common blood. It's mad. Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." I think this may open up the way for what is generally thought of as being 'pure blood' as not being absolutely pure (even lines thought of as pure). Half blood may refer to a number of different mixes (wizard, muggle, royalty, commoner). Just a thought. Cheers.

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Land of the Shire - Jul 15, 2004 9:52 pm (#791 of 2923)

Dr Filibuster writes: Sorry to nit-pick, but Hogwarts isn't the best school in England....because it's not in England, it's in Scotland. True, it doesn't specify that in the books but it has been confirmed in interviews with JKR.

All right, you got me on that point, but it does seem that Hogwarts serves the entire UK - which was the point I was trying to make (next time I'll be clearer). Here in America we often don't distinguish between England and the United Kingdom as a whole, but I am learning that I probably should start to.

I just think it would be odd for everyone to wax poetic about Hogwarts being the most prestigious school in the U.K. if it were the only school in the U.K.

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Land of the Shire - Jul 15, 2004 9:56 pm (#792 of 2923)

Catherine Allen writes:

Hermione has mentioned her holiday in France a few times, and I found it interesting that Olympe and Hagrid went through Dijon, and Hermione mentions in OoP that she also went there, begins to ask Hagrid if he saw something, but then she stops. Whenever there's an interruption in the novels, I start to think, "Hmmmm."

Knowing Hermione, it was probably a museum or historical site of some kind - there are lots of them over there.

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Tarantallegra - Jul 15, 2004 10:52 pm (#793 of 2923)

Dumbledore Is The Giant Squid
Good Morning Everyone! I do finally have the chance to post, after spending three days reading all 792 posts on this thread (didn't want to miss anything I didn't know, and believe me, I've learned alot).

I have many ideas, but for now, what about DD being the DADA teacher? Now, I know Transfiguration is his forte, but he is, after all, the greatest wizard in the world. Couldn't he teach anything if he wanted? Or once you decide to become Headmaster, can you never go back?

Well, at least HRH and the rest of the school would learn something this year... as opposed to, say, Lockhart coming back? (shudders) They may as well put mud in their ears for all he would teach them. Not that he's returning, just a comparison.

Anyway, do what you will with this theory. There are many more brewing, but this one erupted forth first.

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Ozymandias - Jul 15, 2004 11:53 pm (#794 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
I don't see any reason why DD couldn't teach, other than we have no precedent for this. It certainly seems that he would have choosen to teach before resorting to the hiring of Umbridge or Lockhart, if this was an option. However, desperate times call for desperate measures and all that, so who knows. I however, believe that JKR will continue the pattern she has set with the first five books, in that the DADA teacher will be someone new and the object or person that the title refers to will be either new or something/someone we have been introduced to briefly.

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Madame Kulich - Jul 15, 2004 11:57 pm (#795 of 2923)

WOW! What a great idea! Dumbledore as the DADA teacher. I can't believe I didn't think of it. I know he has a lot to do, but teaching this, I would think, would be very important. Great idea! Now I will almost be disappointed if he didn't teach it.

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therealscabbers - Jul 16, 2004 2:06 am (#796 of 2923)

Petra t
didnt everyone tell Harry that DD couldnt teach him Occlumacy as he was too busy with stuff for the order etc? I know it transpired at the end that it was actually because he didnt want Voldemort to know their relationship was anymore than teacher student, but it is a valid point. Also DD was discredited at the MOM and had all his other titles taken from him so actually had more time. Now however he has been reinstated into all the positions he had, and the ministry/new Minister will be wanting his help with the war, which is also going to be really happening in book 6. So dont think he will have time to teach DADA, it is another full time job - prob a minimum of 22 hours per week. (4 1 hour classes for first 5 years, then one for 6-7years) proberbly more and preperation.

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Elanor - Jul 16, 2004 3:48 am (#797 of 2923)

Hello ! I was just thinking : what if the "half blood prince" was Godric Gryffindor himself, for we don't know much yet about him, though he is an essential character of the story ?

The title could refer to the old opposition betweem him and Slytherin and their consequences at Harry's time. After all, we know that the "prince" is neither Harry nor Voldemort, but that there is a link with book two. Or, this book is based on the differents conceptions of who is to be permitted to learn wizardry. In fact, this kind of "eugenics" theories and the way they were fought, is hinted at in all the books and has to be detailed in books 6 and 7.

And finally, remenber that at the end of the second book, there is a fight between Slytherin's beast and Gryffindor's hat, sword, and maybe even phoenix, as though Voldemort and Harry were their present champions and were carrying on their fight through them.

Well, we know Slytherin let something evil behind him for his "heir" -the chamber of secrets-, what if Gryffindor have done the same to help his own heir beat Slytherin's ? Does it make sense, or am I completely mental ? Tell me what you think of that theory... Elanor

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Ozymandias - Jul 16, 2004 4:29 am (#798 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
Well, Elanor, if you're mental, so am I, because I had the same idea. See my earlier posts here and here, though I'm not so sure that the heir is Ginny anymore. It still needs some work. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 16, 2004 4:31 am (#799 of 2923)

Crazed Writer
Therealscabbers, the only one I remember telling Harry that DD was too busy was Snape (although my memory may be lapsing), and he's pulled that stunt before. I think DD may tutor Harry on the side no matter who teaches DADA -- I wouldn't think he's going to let something that important go to someone else, even if he is busy. But I'd love to see DD teaching DADA, too.

Elanor, if you're interested in Gryffindor as HBP, you might be interested to read "Long Theory about Harry's family" and read Part 1 (the rest deals with other issues).

EDIT: Ozy, I just read your posts. Neat idea! Although not canon, there's a bizarre detail in the PoA movie that...Do you suppose (if you were right) that that "Rooooom of Dooooom" that showed up on the Marauder's map when Harry was trying to find Peter Pettigrew could be exactly what you're talking about? Fun speculation, anyway!

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Heikell - Jul 16, 2004 8:36 am (#800 of 2923)

well i've been thinking at the end of Book 5 DD told Harry the Prophecy and it told him that Voldemort would mark him as his EQUAL so which meant that Harry only got the Gryffindor Sword because Harry is the heir to Gryffindor, in the beginning days of the school it was the same always Gryffindor vs Slytherin and now it may be the same thing just different ages because Voldemort marked Harry as his equal when he tried killing him.

I might be wrong it might be hagrid because of the name of his mother is so widely known as Rita Skeeter reported.

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Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:48 pm

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 16, 2004 9:47 am (#801 of 2923)
Not that I'm saying Harry isn't the "Heir of Gryffindor" or anything, but I don't think that's quite what J.K. Rowling was going for when she was talking about Voldemort marking a child as his equal. I think she was going more for "which kid would have the talent and abilities to threaten Lord Voldemort in the end" than "which kid had the right ancestors".

Besides, I don't recall J.K. Rowling ever saying there was an "Heir of Gryffindor". I'm pretty sure it's just a theory fans have been batting around at this point.

I'm also not sure if you were going for naming Harry as the HBP, but J.K. Rowling has already said it's not him.

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Elanor - Jul 16, 2004 9:54 am (#802 of 2923)

Hello Ozymandias ! Sorry, I just joined the forum and have had no time yet to read all the previous theories, but I'm glad you have the same ! I think Harry is more likely to be the heir because, as Heikell said, he is now the "equal" of Voldemort, so if Voldemort is Slytherin's heir, he has to be Gryffindor's. But I think then that the term of "heir" refers more to a "moral" than blood heritage.

Then, this sort of situation reminds me of a long tradition coming from medieval tales, with knights who were the "champions" of their respective kings, who gave them their sword upon which the knight sweard alleagence. And, in that case, Gryffindor just gave Harry his own sword...

There is also somewhere in this site a question to JKR about Godric's Hollow and the fact that this name was significant and she answered yes... What do you think of it ? Elanor

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Kyle Cashulin - Jul 16, 2004 1:23 pm (#803 of 2923)

Well as stated above by TGF it can't be Harry. Besides I think that JKR said on her website that it wasn't Voldimort or Harry. Now that Dumbledore's back I wonder who he'll make the new DADA teacher? I hope it's Lupin again.

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Ozymandias - Jul 16, 2004 6:39 pm (#804 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
Elanor, I just stumbled across this essay [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] on the Lexicon, which I had never read before. The Potter family certainly seems to have a lot of connections to St. Godric. You also brought up a good point about Harry and Voldemort being equals, so they may both be heirs.

What do you think about Gryffindor as the HBP? That would seem to add another similarity between him and Harry, as both would be halfbloods.

By the way, I think we should probably move the Harry as Heir discussion over to the Heir of Gryffindor thread, if we want to pursue it much further.

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Courtney22 - Jul 16, 2004 6:40 pm (#805 of 2923)

This may not make sense but couldn't Harry be the heir of Griffindor but not be the HBP. Just because your somebody's heir doesn't mean you a Prince. People are automatically dismissing the heir to Griffindor theory because they know Harry isn't the HBP. Look at Voldemort, we know he's not the HBP but he was the heir of Slytherin. Just a thought Smile

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Ozymandias - Jul 16, 2004 7:09 pm (#806 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, especially if wizarding royalty was around in Gryffindor's time but has since died out.

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haymoni - Jul 16, 2004 7:40 pm (#807 of 2923)

As I think Hagrid is the HBP, I have no trouble with Harry being the Heir of Gryffindor.

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Plinker - Jul 16, 2004 8:28 pm (#808 of 2923)

May all your Boggarts be easy
I got this from another forum, but it makes a lot of sense. If you look at every HP title, it represents a new challenge or threat to Harry. Even OoP was a challenge because he was kept in the dark about what was going on . The HBP will probably be someone we have yet to meet or was barely mentioned in a previous book. It could even be from one of the other wizard schools. Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

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Aeoliano - Jul 16, 2004 9:03 pm (#809 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Even if Harry were the heir of gryffindor I don't think it would not necessarily make him the half-blood prince. JKR is fond of CS Lewis. In CS Lewis sequel to Lord of the Rings there was a woman who was a direct descendent of the Tudors. Now, in England the Windsor family represent the royal family. However, at one time being a descendant from the Tudors represented royal lineage. She inherited a special gift of prescience as a result of her Tudor lineage. She became a sort of oracle who could forsee future events associated with ontological threats to England.

Getting back to Harry Potter, I suspect that the half-blood prince will be a muggle with special gifts which may have a bearing on the war between Voldemorte and the Order of the Phoenix.

-- A.

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mischa fan - Jul 16, 2004 9:07 pm (#810 of 2923)

Easy being green, it is not
Aeoliano, just to like to let you know, CS Lewis didn't write Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien did.

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Chris. - Jul 16, 2004 9:09 pm (#811 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I was wondering about that.

And Aeoliano, we all make mistakes, my own worse than others!

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Aeoliano - Jul 16, 2004 9:26 pm (#812 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
:-: Aeoliano, just to like to let you know, CS Lewis didn't write Lord of the Rings, JRR :-: Tolkien did.

True however they were very, very close friends and CS Lewis did write a sort of sequel to the Lord of the Rings... which was quite different from many of his other works as it combined SciFi, fantasy, and the religious/moral theme he and Tolkien were famous for.

If you have read Tolkien, follow this by reading "Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra", (a personal favorite), and "That Hideous Strength"... the final book is interesting as seems to show what has happened to the order of wizards or the Istari.

-- A.

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Elanor - Jul 17, 2004 12:00 am (#813 of 2923)

Hello again Ozymandias !

I've just read the essay about St Godric and found it very interesting, except that I do not completely agree with the translation of "expecto patronus". In latin, it really means "I call my protector" with an idea of hope behind it. Or in the 3rd book, Dumbledore says to Harry "Prongs rode again last night" and "So you did see your father last night, Harry... you found him inside yourself". Which means that, just like when he was a baby, Harry's protector is his father, symbolized here by his animagus form.

But the fact that James Potter was a stag animagus is really interesting because it links him to St Godric's story. But a fact doesn't fit : if stags are really this important in the story, why Gryffindor's emblem isn't a stag?

As for Gryffindor being the HBP, I completely agree, because, as I said, all the story is about the old opposition between wizards about who is to be permetted to learn wizardry. That refers to the old struggle between Slytherin and Gryffindor themselves and the fact that centuries after, Slytherin's theories still have defenders. Through the time, Slytherin has shown his weapons : Voldemort, Dark Arts and the chamber of secrets. It is time now for Gryffindor to show his own, and help his defenders to win, isn't it?

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Magical Max - Jul 17, 2004 4:42 am (#814 of 2923)

True, it could come down to Gryffindor vs Slytherin. But I think you'll find that behind the Heir of Gryffindor will stand resoultely, all his allies from Gryffindor, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. The legend of the HBP could serve as a rallying cry to all those willing to make a stand against VM and the DE.

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CM1507 - Jul 17, 2004 8:38 am (#815 of 2923)

My money is still on Dean Thomas. I just don't understand why Rowling would make a whole section of her web site about him if he was not to play a somewhat large role in an upcoming book. She also did say he was half blood on her site. So it could be a possibility.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 17, 2004 9:18 am (#816 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
While JKR never says this, I think it is implied that she put so much Dean Thomas stuff on her website because he will never have a large role in the books. It is on there because it almost got into the books bt was edited out and now likely never will. So through the website, we get some background info. I don't see her revealing the backstory of the HBP on her website. I think Dean Thomas would be a good fit for the HBP. I find it odd that Ginny is dating him when there are lots of others she could be dating. It would normally lead me to consider him a good candidate for the HBP except for the stuff on the website. Now, I'd be suprised if it was him. He might play a larger role, but not too large.

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Elanor - Jul 17, 2004 9:27 am (#817 of 2923)

I completely agree with you John Fallon, for it has been the same at Gryffindor's time, when Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw were on his side. And this is also the Sorting Hat's piece of advice when it says "we must unit inside her", talking about Hogwarth.

So, you're right, that does surely means that the HPB, whoever he is by the way, will be the unifier and the one who strengthen Dumbledore's side.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 17, 2004 10:49 am (#818 of 2923)

I still think Harry and Ginny should date!! But thats off topic :0)

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 17, 2004 11:03 am (#819 of 2923)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I have got a real wild choice for DADA - FUDGE. We know he is going to be replaced at the MOM and since DD is so forgiving of everyones faults what would prevent him from giving Fudge a second chance. Fudge and DD were never real enemies.

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haymoni - Jul 17, 2004 12:09 pm (#820 of 2923)

If Fudge was the DADA teacher, Harry would have a DA meeting the very next night!

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CM1507 - Jul 17, 2004 12:28 pm (#821 of 2923)

True, I don't think Fudge is capable of being the DADA teacher. You'd think they would put someone in there to prepare the students for what is to come. Fudge just doesn't have it in him.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 17, 2004 12:31 pm (#822 of 2923)

I don't think it will be Fudge, and I'll tell you why. Fudge isn't a very clever wizard. It's common knowledge that everyone to include himself knows it.

Despite everything else, there is one common link between all the DADA teachers, and that's that they were clever people.

Quirrel was clever enough to keep Voldemort himself hidden at Hogwarts for an entire year. Lockhart was clever enough to invent an entire lifetime of accomplishments for himself. Lupin was just a clever wizard, period. Barty Crouch, Jr. was able to conceal his identity from everyone including Dumbledore for an entire year.

Like I said, whatever else they were, they were very clever people. The possible exception to this is Professor Umbridge (though she did seem to have a knack for setting people up since that Dementor attack took a certain amount of cunning to orchestrate), but then Dumbledore didn't hire her... the much less clever Fudge did.

Now that we're back to, hopefully, Dumbledore picking out the DADA teacher, I think we'll be back to seeing a clever wizard there, regardless of what kind of complete and utter twit he or she may be otherwise.

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Guercio - Jul 17, 2004 1:10 pm (#823 of 2923)

Hi. I'm going off on a tangent here, but we haven't had a new theory on the HBP for a while so bear with me.

This quote comes from OotP UK paperback edition, p105:

"The pure blood families are all interrelated," said Sirius. "If you're only going to let your sons and daughters marry pure-bloods your choice is very limited; there are hardly any of us left. Molly and I are cousins by marriage and Arthur's something like my second cousin once removed." (emphasis mine)

So! Sirius and Molly are cousins by marriage.

One way this is the case is if Sirius and Arthur are cousins, which they are (see quote). However, the fact that this relationship is mentioned afterwards, prefixed with the phrase "something like" leads me to suspect the relationship between Molly and Sirius arises in a different way:

To whit: Sirius married Molly's cousin.

I know there are other ways of getting a cousin by marriage, involving remarriages, etc, but these have never been mentioned so I can be forgiven for putting this theory forward I think?

Anyway, IF Sirius was married to Molly's cousin, and IF Molly's cousin was a half-blood, and IF they had a child, then...

This child could be the Half-Blood Prince (remember "being a Black makes you practically royal" (my paraphrase)).

Thoughts?!

PS: (the obligatory "I'm new so be gentle" bit) I'm new so be gentle! (I have to say it is nice to find a place that doesn't seethe with latent aggression like so many places on the web.)

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Aeoliano - Jul 17, 2004 1:19 pm (#824 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
:-: As for Gryffindor being the HBP, I completely agree, because, as I said, all the story is :-: about the old opposition between wizards about who is to be permetted to learn :-: wizardry. That refers to the old struggle between Slytherin and Gryffindor themselves :-: and the fact that centuries after, Slytherin's theories still have defenders. Through the :-: time, Slytherin has shown his weapons : Voldemort, Dark Arts and the chamber of :-: secrets. It is time now for Gryffindor to show his own, and help his defenders to win, :-: isn't it?

Wasn't it HufflePuff and not Slytherin, Gryffindor, or RavenClaw which was most open to teaching anyone the art of wizardry? According to the Sorting Hat that house was always the most open to Muggles or half-bloods whereas the others seemed to harbor a certain degree of prejudice with Slytherin standards having the most bias?

--A.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 17, 2004 2:48 pm (#825 of 2923)

Okay, it'll be a bit out of order, but a couple of things. First, none of the other Hogwarts founders shared Salazar Slytherin's prejudicial view on their students. They each had attributes they looked for, which is understandable since pretty much any specialized educational institution you go to has specific attributes it looks for in its potential students. I wouldn't call that prejudice, though, since some sort of criteria is needed for selecting students.

Heck, even Helga Hufflepuff had her basic criteria. After all, she wasn't out trying to teach muggles witchcraft and wizardry, so she had to at least have looked for a basic aptitude to perform magic. Indeed, the fact that none of the other Hogwarts founders agreed with Salazar Slytherin's point of view is what led him to leave Hogwarts in the first place, so no... none of the others were biased like Salazar Slytherin was, and I think that really reflects in the overall tone of the book since we have three founders who got along together and generally did good things, and we have three houses of students who are generally portrayed as good people who get along with one another, and then a fourth house and a fourth founder both of which are portrayed in a much darker light.

As for Sirius, I don't think he was ever married. It would certainly be odd for him to be married and for us to not have been given ANY indication whatsoever up to this point that he ever had a spouse. I mean, it would be unlikely that Sirius would be so single mindedly interested in Harry if he had a son of his own out there. Surely he would have taken steps to see his son, help him out in life, be with him. He doesn't do anything like that, though. He stays focused very single mindedly on Harry and his duties concerning him. Plus, there is the matter of his property and money. They seem to have stayed entirely under Sirius's control while he was in Azkaban. I don't know for sure how it works in the wizarding world, but I would imagine if he had a wife and child, they could tap into his money to pay expenses, and no mention of anything like that happening is ever made.

To further confound matters, the child would be named (in all likelihood), either Black or Prewett... and it would have to be around the same age as Harry or slightly older, so we would've heard of him at Hogwarts, and we haven't.

So could the Half Blood Prince be Sirius Black's long lost son? I suppose. I think logically speaking, it's an unlikely possibility at this point, though.

As for how Sirius Black and Molly Weasley are related by marriage... I would hazard a guess that one of the other two Prewetts we know of-- Gideon and Fabian-- married into the Black family, thus making them cousins by marriage (after all, that's what makes Lucius Malfoy Sirius Black's cousin by marriage).

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 17, 2004 3:00 pm (#826 of 2923)

I personally go for the theory that Krum is the HBP. I know this doesn't work if the HBP himself is connected to CoS, but where did J.K. Rowling say this? I haven't been able to find it anywhere.

Anyway, Krum seems like a character who might work; he's arrogant, possibly half-blood, and fairly interesting.

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Elanor - Jul 17, 2004 4:24 pm (#827 of 2923)

Thanks Andrew !

I do agree with you. Of course, each Hogwarts founder had his own criteria for choosing his students, but Slytherin was the only one who chose them according to their “blood” origin (and other skills too, I don’t forget it). But the other founders chose them only according to moral or intellectual skills, no matter if they came from a pure, half or muggle blood family. And that is the main thing, which underlies all the story !

As for the new DADA teacher, all we can say for sure is that the previous ones always were : 1) a new character in the story 2) someone who makes the story move on, in a way or another, but never just a teacher. That is true even for Lockart : isn’t it in the first scene with him that Lucius Malfoy, thanks to the crowd, gave the diary to Ginny ? So I think we can expect the same features of the new DADA teacher...

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Catherine - Jul 17, 2004 4:34 pm (#828 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Lockhart writes, "I personally go for the theory that Krum is the HBP.... Anyway, Krum seems like a character who might work; he's arrogant, possibly half-blood, and fairly interesting. "

I'm unsure what "arrogant" has to do with it, especially since I haven't seen any evidence that Krum is, in fact, arrogant. He approaches Harry politely, signs autographs without making comments, and seems to worry that Hermione likes Harry better than him. He IS a young man of few words, but that doesn't mean that he's arrogant.

We don't know that Krum is half-blood, either.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 17, 2004 4:56 pm (#829 of 2923)

I agree with Catherine. In fact, I would say that Krum is anything but arrogant, and actually quite insecure, his worldwide fame notwithstanding.

Wouldn't one assume that parentage is a big deal at Durmstrang? Of course, allowances would have been made for an international Quidditch star, but I would think its safe to consider him pureblood until its proven otherwise.

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Chris. - Jul 17, 2004 5:01 pm (#830 of 2923)

HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I'm also considering Krum a Pure-blood until HbP is published or JKR says otherwise.

My shortlist is:::

-Hagrid
-Tom Riddle
-Godric Gryffindor
-Dumbledore

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thetheatre62442 - Jul 17, 2004 5:05 pm (#831 of 2923)

Something for Guercio: I distinctly remember a Prewett mentioned somewhere in the series. I can't remember which book though, but I'm fairly sure there is a random character with the surname 'Prewett' somewhere in the books. I wish I knew where though. I agree somewhat with your theory. I don't belive Sirius was ever married, but there's always the possibility that he had a child and doesn't know it, catch my drift?

I am going to go look for a mention of a Prewett in the books. I'll post if I find something interesting. Let me know what you think.

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 17, 2004 5:05 pm (#832 of 2923)

All I meant by "possibly half-blood" is that we don't know anything proving otherwise.

As for the other theories, Hagrid is likely, although I'm not a Hagrid fan so I'm hoping not. I don't really buy Tom Riddle, because I don't think JKR will play that kind of mind game.

And of course, there's the perhaps most likely possibility (in my opinion, of course) that the HBP is a new character altogether.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 17, 2004 5:14 pm (#833 of 2923)

I don't think JKR will play that kind of mind game. -- Luke E.A. Lockhart

I would tend to agree. I think Tom Riddle being the HBP would be a cheat. The problem is that that kind of "mind game" is exactly what Dobby did with his "clue" in COS. So, we'll just have to see won't we.

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CM1507 - Jul 17, 2004 6:16 pm (#834 of 2923)

The Dumbledore theory is very interesting. I'm not thinking it will be a person will such well known powers though. It seems to me that Rowling would use a sort of quiet character as the HBP, one that is not expected to have such an importance, one that will come out of the woodwork in order to help the Order with the whole ordeal.
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dobbyiscool - Jul 17, 2004 6:22 pm (#835 of 2923)

Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
Ok, I haven't read through all 834 previous posts, but I do like the idea of Krum being the HBP. It seems really obvious that it'd be TMR, so I doubt it is him.

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Tarantallegra - Jul 17, 2004 7:31 pm (#836 of 2923)

Dumbledore Is The Giant Squid
thetheatre62442: About those Prewetts... On pg. 174 OoP (American) Chp. 9 paragraph 2, Gideon & Fabian are mentioned by Moody, when he shows Harry the original Order of the Phoenix. Also, on the next page, second para. again, just Gideon though.

I am almost sure I saw it somewhere else, but not to sure where.

Andrew Buchanan (sp?), I DO hope you realize how appreciated you and all of your ingenious thoughts and theories are, because I for one absolutely enjoy reading you posts. If I am not mistaken, you know everything? Okay, maybe too generous... Certainly quite a bit about our dear beloved Harry (and his world...). I just want to let you know you are great, a mind we couldn't live without. I try to comment on your posts, but you cover everything so thoroughly, it's hard to know what to add!

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haymoni - Jul 17, 2004 7:37 pm (#837 of 2923)

Don't forget JKR said that Molly's maiden name was Prewett.

I think that was on her website.

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Aeoliano - Jul 17, 2004 8:00 pm (#838 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
I rather doubt that Hermione would continue to correspond with Viktor if he truly were arrogant?

Arrogance seems more Lockhart's strong suit.

Keep in mind that you could be prince of a "postage stamp" and still be a prince.

The DADA instructor always a new character? Well, I guess that given the war, all the problems which center around Hogwarts a "known quantity" will have to allow him/herself to be selected. There is too much at stake which is why I still believe that the MoM will have some say in the selection.

-- A.

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CM1507 - Jul 17, 2004 8:22 pm (#839 of 2923)

The MoM may have something to do with the selection, but I think he might let Dumbledore decide for the most part after having been proved incorrect in thinking through the last book.

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Kwikspell - Jul 17, 2004 8:54 pm (#840 of 2923)

Marketers? Bah!
I believe Hagrid also mentions the Prewetts in SS, when he's reciting a list to Harry of people that Voldemort killed. (Same time he mentions the Bones' and until that was cleared up in OotP, I thought Susan Bones was their daughter.)

I personally believe that the DADA teacher will be a new character, but you have to wonder if it might go to Snape in either this book or the final one.

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Tarantallegra - Jul 17, 2004 9:14 pm (#841 of 2923)

Dumbledore Is The Giant Squid
Kwikspell, There it is. Well, at least you found it. It's late & I attempted SS to find it, but I just couldn't. Thanks! I knew it was Hagrid... Bec

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Elanor - Jul 18, 2004 12:30 am (#842 of 2923)

Good morning everybody ! For me it is 9:30 am (jul 18), and owing to the time difference, I just read your messages : you had a busy and interesting night !

I don’t believe in Krum being the HPB, he is far from being arrogant, and Loopy Lupin is right : according to what we know about Durmstrang, he is more likely to be pure-blood.

Kwikspell, I love the idea of Snape being the new DADA teacher, it would be a strong one (poor neville...), and as he is longing for it for ages, he would try to show his ability. Exciting thought ! I always loved that character for he is one of the most complex of the story. After all, have you ever wondered why he wanted that job so badly? He must be ambitious of course, but it isn’t a really satisfactory answer. There is more behind it, even maybe something like fear coming from his past, his own interest in Dark Arts once and where it led him to.

But don’t you think he will be too busy working in the shadow for Dumbledore now to get the job ? What is more, wouldn’t it be tempting for Voldemort to use him to lure people on him, forcing him by the way to reveal his cover, for I assume that if Dombledore says he is to be trusted, he must be right. What do you think of it?

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Paul Filippelli - Jul 18, 2004 3:26 am (#843 of 2923)

Dudley

Even if Petunia is a Muggle, one of her parents could have been a Squib which would make a magical son a half-blood, right? JKR said that someone will show signs of magical ability at a late age, so it could be Dudley. Petunia seems like a witch, but she could just be a second-generation-Squib (a term I just made up for a child of a Squib). This would explain the witch-like behavior. Dudley (if my conclusions are true) is a half-blood, and his parents treat him like...how is it worded?...it is something like a pampered little prince (someone look it up and inform me of JKR's exact wording...I have no clue where it is written), so in this sense he would be treated by his parents as the half-blood prince.

Gryffindor was likely a half-blood; or at least it would not be a surprize at all if JKR revealed this. Harry, being a "true Gryffindor" could be interpreted as meaning a descendant of Godric Gryffindor. So, as the heir of Slytherin comes to open the Chamber of Secrets and become what could be called the Pure-Blood King, the heir of Gryffindor could be called the Half-Blood King. A prince is the heir to a king, and that heir doesn't have to be a son or daughter. It could be a cousin. If Dudley is magical,he would be heir to Harry's "throne." This would make Dudley the Half-Blood Prince.

JKR said that we will find out in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince about what Dudley heard during his dementor experience. It seems weird that Dudley, a spoiled child, would have bad memories at home. The only other place is Smeltings. It would seem that Dudley has a secret life at Smeltings that he dreads. He could also secretly feel jealous of Harry. It will definitely be important to the story, whatever he heard. I think Dudley is the Half Blood Prince because of these reasons.

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Catherine - Jul 18, 2004 5:49 am (#844 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Paul wrote, "Even if Petunia is a Muggle, one of her parents could have been a Squib which would make a magical son a half-blood, right? "

I don't think so, because we know that Lily, Petunia's sister, was Muggle-born. Muggles are non-magic people. Petunia and Lily had non-magic parents, not Squib parents, who are non-magic children of magic parents.

Whew. What a mouthfull! I guess the shorthand version of what I'm trying to say is that Lily's parents were not Squibs.

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Elanor - Jul 18, 2004 6:20 am (#845 of 2923)

Hi, it's me again !

Talking about clues for the next books, something is on my mind for a while now. But, as I have not read all your suggestions yet (I just joined the forum), you may have already discussed it. Just tell me...

I think there is a hint at the end of the GoF, when Harry tells Dumbledore and Sirius what happened in the graveyard. I quote :

“Harry showed them both the place where his robes were torn, and the cut beneath them. ‘He said my blood would make him stronger than if he’d used someone else’s,’ Harry told Dumbledore. ‘He said the protection my – my mother left in me – he’d have it too. And he was right – he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face’. For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had return to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him.”

I think the part “a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes” is very important for the continuation of the story, because, otherwise, how could Dumbledore possibly feel triumph earing that news ? For the moment, it especially seems to have weakened Harry : Voldemort could touch him and the bond between them is stronger then ever, allowing Voldemort to manipulate him in book 5.

So, I was wondering if finally, in spite of everything, the fact that Voldemort took Harry’s blood to rebirth himself wasn’t fitting well Dumbledore’s future plan of action... From which, the next question is : how could Dumbledore use it to favour his side?

What do you think of it?

PS : have you notice that this is related to “blood” again? funny isn’t it?

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narisa - Jul 18, 2004 6:38 am (#846 of 2923)

about Lily and Petunia parent being a squib, I think it is possible. It explains why their parents are so delight Lily becomeing a witch. But I don't think that Dudley can be HBP.(I dont have a reason, though. That's what my sense tell me.)

Anyway, about JK said there is something in CoS, have anyone suggested about the Mason family, they seem to be a passer-by. But who knows, they might have something relate to HBP (Well, I didn't said they are HBP). I am just wonder what make mrs Mason fear of birds that much.

Any suggestion?

Oh, and about Sirius having baby, he is the LAST of the Black, remember?

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Chemyst - Jul 18, 2004 7:04 am (#847 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Elanor, there is a Triumphant Glint in DD's Eye thread. You have it right though, it is gleam not glint.

But how could Dumbledore use it to favour his side?
I don't know how JKR plans to work it out, but if all these blood transfusions aren't killing them, their blood types must be compatible, and blood types run in families... but I really don't like where that could go. Whatever mechanism JKR comes up with to explain it, it does seem that this blood link will prove to be key in Voldemort's undoing. Since Voldemort can now touch Harry as well as link to his mind, the reverse is also likely to be true, whereas if Voldemort had achieved near-immortality, that would make it really tough for Harry to defeat him.

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Elanor - Jul 18, 2004 9:14 am (#848 of 2923)

Thanks for the thread Chemyst!

Sorry if I keep on repeating, that is due to the fact that I’m not used to the forum yet, and first I tried not to attempt to do too many things at once. It also takes me a little more time to read and, above all, write in english which is not my mother tongue, as you must have realized...

You say that it “would make really tough for Harry to defeat him” as Voldemort has achieved near-immortality. I know that the prophety says that one of them has to kill the other one, but, confronting Voldemort, Dumbledore also said when V asked “You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?” :

“ ‘We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom.’ [...] ‘Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness-‘ “

So, does that mean that Harry could destroy him without having to kill him and, by the way, go beyond his near-immortality?

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Devika - Jul 18, 2004 9:53 am (#849 of 2923)

I personally am very confused about who this half blood prince is going to be. Somehow the half blood part is not what intrigues me. We know the wizarding world is just full of half bloods and there are obviously numerous contendors, some whom we know, some whom we know of, and some whom we just haven't met. But it is the Prince part which has me thinking. I am not sure about what kind of a Prince this person will be. All I know is that it is a half-blood male. Except knowing JKR, even this can't be said for sure. Maybe this Prince is actually a metaphoric sort of prince, somebody who is just called prince kind of like Lord Voldemort. Then again is the debate about whether this Prince is from the past or the present. If he is from the past he may well be a real prince, like Sir Nicholas. This could be a possibility if he is going to be a key to revealing some crucial background information, the way most of COS's plot was set 50 years ago. But I am just throwing arrows in the dark here, not really giving any theories, but doing a little rephrasing and putting my thoughts down, so that some more guesses might be made!

As for the DADA teacher, I can't remember who said it, but I really liked the idea of DD. It seems perfect that he would set the ground for the official DA and give the students some real training before the final battle in Book 7, which as many of us believe might be set on Hogwarts. Apart from that, again as many of us believe, DD might just be dying in HBP or in Book 7, so we should get a chance to meet Dumbledore the teacher before that too...

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 18, 2004 10:26 am (#850 of 2923)

Elanor, there is a Triumphant Glint in DD's Eye thread. You have it right though, it is gleam not glint. -- Chemyst

Thank you. I'm glad others have notice that. Very Happy

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Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:51 pm

Aeoliano - Jul 18, 2004 1:39 pm (#851 of 2923)
Piero da Lerici
Thomas Bulfinch also explores the concept of the basilisk as the king of the serpents. He says,

The basilisks were called kings of serpents because all other serpents and snakes, behaving like good subjects, and wisely not wishing to be burned up or struck dead, fled the moment they heard the distant hiss of their king, although they might be in full feed upon the most delicious prey, leaving the sole enjoyment of the banquet to the royal monster.

The half-blood prince might also be the spawn of the baselisk or "king serpant".

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 18, 2004 1:52 pm (#852 of 2923)

If this were the case (the basilisk spawn being the HBP), then the HBP would probably be a Parseltongue, leaving us to guess who (besides Harry & Voldemort) might be a Parseltongue.

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potterfan79 - Jul 18, 2004 1:58 pm (#853 of 2923)

Hello, I'm new and I've read bits and pieces of this thread but I haven't read the whole thing. I appologize ahead of time for the length of this. I have many thoughts, and haven't had the chance to share them since I started reading the books 3 years ago.

I agree with Devika that the HBP may not be an actual prince like royalty. I looked up the definition of prince in Websster's dictionary and most meanings refer to royalty, but the last one or two refers simply to someone with a high standing in society.

I also have a thought on the Half blood part. I remeber reading earlier in this thread that some people think that half-blood may not necessarily mean part wizard/witch and part muggle. I'm not sure I can really buy into that theory. One of COS's main themes throughout was the predjudicial pure blood vs mudblood issue. And we all know that book 6 and book 2 are linked in some way. That's why I think the Half Blood Prince is going to be a half blood wizard who has at least a high standing in society. By the way, this high standing may not necessarily mean someone who has a lot of money or power. It might also mean someone with great character.

As for who the Half Blood Prince could be, my money is set on either Godric Gryffindor or a character we've not met yet. I pick Godric because the ending battle did appear to occur between Slytherin and Gryffindor (ie Slytherin's basalisk and Gryffindor's sword) I got that from an old post on this thread but I don't remember who wrote it. JKR said that she took a lot of stuff out of book 2 and saved it for book 6, but that doesn't mean we didn't get a hint of what book 6 will be all about. And if the former title of book 2 was what the current title of book 6 is, then I think Harry's connection with Godric is going to be a major part of this book.

Again I appologize for the length. Smile

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Aeoliano - Jul 18, 2004 1:59 pm (#854 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
It does seem like it may be Voldemorte. IN mythology a weasel is the only means of defense against the Baselisk. It is said to die itself after the baselisk is vanquished.

Weasel... Weasley!!!??

-- A.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 18, 2004 2:47 pm (#855 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 18, 2004 2:48 pm
Elanor wrote: So, does that mean that Harry could destroy him without having to kill him and, by the way, go beyond his near-immortality?

I quote Trelawney in answer: "...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..."

So it seems that Harry has to kill Voldemort. The "neither can live" part indicates it is not enough that Harry destroy Voldemort in some other way. One has to die. The "hand of the other" part means that Harry has to actually do the killing. I can see maybe Wormtail killing Voldemort and having DD explain that Harry set the events in motion by saving Wormtail, which led to him killed Voldemort. Therefore, you can say it was by Harry's hand (prophecies are tricky things) But that is a long stretch. I think Harry actually has to kill Voldemort...or die himself.

You know, if Harry really believes this prophecy, he can start acting quite reckless. After all, he has to live long enough to kill or be killed by Voldemort. So nothing else can kill him. As long as Voldemort isn't around, Harry can't die.

potterfan79 wrote: One of COS's main themes throughout was the predjudicial pure blood vs mudblood issue. And we all know that book 6 and book 2 are linked in some way. That's why I think the Half Blood Prince is going to be a half blood wizard who has at least a high standing in society.

That is pretty good reasoning and probably right. However, the only things we know is that HBP was going to be the title for CoS and CoS contains some clues about where the series is going. JKR never says CoS contains clues about who the HBP is. It is possible, although unlikely, that the HBP that was going to be in CoS is not the HBP that will be in book 6. It is possible that JKR just liked the name and decided to give it to a different character with a different reason for being the HBP. The clues in CoS could point to something in Book 7. It's not likely, but it is possible.

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schoff - Jul 18, 2004 3:00 pm (#856 of 2923)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
After all, he has to live long enough to kill or be killed by Voldemort. So nothing else can kill him. As long as Voldemort isn't around, Harry can't die.

Not necessarily. If Harry dies some other way, then that just means there's no one left to stop Voldemort. Voldemort would most likely not become "whole" (or whatever "live" means in the "neither can live while the other survives').

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 18, 2004 3:09 pm (#857 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
No. If the prophecy is true (and that is a big "if"), Voldemort has to kill harry or Harry has to kill Voldemort. "Either must die at the hands of the other" (emphasis added). Let's say Harry hasn't killed Voldemort. In his 6th year, he dies in a terrible Care of Magical creatures accident while Voldemort is 200 miles away sipping coffee and reading the Dailey Prophet. Then the prophecy is wrong, because then neither died at the hands of the other. The prophecy says it must happen.

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Aeoliano - Jul 18, 2004 3:22 pm (#858 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
"...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..."

And in the wizard of oz remember Dorothy mistakenly through the bucket of water on the wicked witch which led to her demise.. and mistakenly dropped a house on her sister.

Isn't it possible that "at the hand of the other" could mean by the devices of the other? After all Voldemorte did fail to kill Harry (per the prophecy) at birth. If the prophecy were true in that sense then shouldn't Harry already be dead.

-- A.

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schoff - Jul 18, 2004 3:27 pm (#859 of 2923)

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
I'm taking the "Prophecy" debate to the Prophecies thread. I responded to Wandless Wizard's post there.

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Hogs Head - Jul 18, 2004 3:53 pm (#860 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
These theories are hurting my head and are not helping my guess work very much. So, I have decided to hold off on the guessing (about who the HBP may be) until Book 6 comes out and be thoroughly surprised. But, thanks to all those who have posted HBP theories so far -- quite a few are ingenious.

So, now a few off topic and very random thoughts.

My favorite poster of the month is Loopy Lupin. Brothers in the bar must stick together. Can we start a monthly award for like "post of the month"?

My second favorite post was the one attributed to Prefect Marcus about what we hope to find out in Book 6. However, since he didn't post it himself, he can't be poster of the month. (Or can he?)

Sleeping Beauty, your bio is amusing. Is it an Atkins diet manifesto when you say, "We do not want any toast, at all, ever. No, muffins, no toast, no tea cakes, no buns, baps, baguettes, or bagels, no croissants, no crumpets, no pancakes, no potato cakes, no hot cross buns, and definitely no smegging flapjacks. NO TOAST!" Or perhaps that is from some literary source I haven't seen? I'm hoping it is that latter, since all this talk of pastry now makes me feel like loading up on carbs. I hope I have some cream cheese in the fridge.

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Elanor - Jul 18, 2004 3:55 pm (#861 of 2923)

Hello Potterfan ! I am glad to see that you agree with the theory of Gryffindor being the HBP.

Aeliano, if you like mythology, me too ! Even if I think that it is the singing of a rooster that vanquish the basilisk (by the way, it is certainly said so in book 2). I have an historian training and I studied symbols and creeds, especially when studying Antiquity and Medieval archaeology. So, I opened my books again and found some interesting things :

First, talking of kings, the word “basilisk” comes from the greek “basiliskos” which means “little king”.

Then, when you look at the Romanesque symbolism which was used for giving sense to medieval churches in Europe, you can find that :

- the bird is always confronted with the snake : the bird symbolize the angel thanks to whom the heavens come down while the snake – the earth – stands up.

- in the Arthurian legend, Percival knows animals’ languages. In that case, it is good because it is said to be a privilege reserved for the ones who have the Knowledge.

- a white stag was known in Middle Ages to guide the losts and the righteous.

I don’t say all these symbols are effective here, but they give food for thoughts, don’t they? (especially the bird against the snake part I think)

Now, it is nearly 1 am on monday morning for me, so I think it is time for me to go to bed, but I will keep on searching if you’re interested in, just tell me ! Good night !

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 18, 2004 3:59 pm (#862 of 2923)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I cannot buy into Gryffindor as the HBP. Slytherin and him must have died long ago. Yes, Slytherin left the CoS for his heir and Godric left his sword for only a true Gryffindorf to use. But JKR hasn't had anyone comeback from the dead and has given no indication anyone could. That is unless you also believe that Gryffindor or Slytherin left a means of coming back just like Riddle did through the diary. I like the theory about the Weasley and the serpent. JKR could have Ron or Ginny killing Voldemort's snake. I also believe that Dudley or Petunia must be the one who performs magic late in life. Won't that just curl Uncle Vernon's mustache. Of course Filch could be the one who performs magic late in life. Why was he taking the course if he didn't want to.

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Redneck7 CO - Jul 18, 2004 4:07 pm (#863 of 2923)

As it has mentioned before the term "half-blood" can be interpreted into various different meanings. First, there is the half wizard half muggle. Second, the term half-blood, especially in reference to nobility could mean that only one parent is of noble lineage.

I am going go with the theory that Draco Malfoy is the HBP for the following reasons:

1. The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black, which Narcissa Malfoy is a descendent of. The Black family tree as known consists of two "heirs" under Phineas Nigellus one of which is Sirus's father and the other is that of his uncle (As so far the only known uncle) the father of Narcissa. The known family tree doesn not tell of the ages of Sirius's father or uncle, but one possibility may be that if the Black family is indeed noble and Sirius's uncle is the eldest male then under primogeniture he would inherent the titles and wealth.

2. Sirius recieved an inheretance from his uncle, who may also be the father of Narcissa. One of several possibilities for this inheretence may be that the uncle had no heirs that were male, his only offspring were Bellatrix, Andromeda, and Narcissa. Another point as to wealth is if the uncle was indeed the eldest he would have the wealth to will to sirius the titles, e.g. prince, may have remained to the eldest of his daughters, possibly Narcissa.

3. Blood and money. Nobility is often associated with wealth, this is not always the case, but the association is still valid. The Malfoy family is wealthy; not only weathly, but what might be termed as "old money", meaning that Narcissa and Lucius did not become wealthy in their lifetimes, but had inhereted their wealth.

4. Nowhere is it said that the HBP must be an ally to Harry and the OotP. Many of theories do promote the HBP as friend or foe, but as far as I can see the most likely candidate will be from the only "nobility" mentioned as of yet.

Finally, my arugement pins Draco as the HBP through his mother whereas he is only "half-blood" in that his noble blood only stems from one parent.

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Aeoliano - Jul 18, 2004 4:09 pm (#864 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Hi Elanor!

Yes, its true! Like you, I guess I do enjoy thinking about symbolism, and interesting enigmas!

the bird is always confronted with the snake : the bird symbolize the angel thanks to

whom the heavens come down while the snake – the earth – stands up.

Very Kewl!!! I couldn't find that connection when I looked! I found it interesting that both are associated with royalty. From very ancient times. I'm not sure it has any bearing on who the HBP is but as you said it all makes for interesting food for thought?

-- A.

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potterfan79 - Jul 18, 2004 4:29 pm (#865 of 2923)

Hey Redneck7 CO, very interesting, and I'll even go so far as to say it could be a possibility, given your theory that the word half blood refers strictly to noblity. However I have to say I hope that it is not true, because to me the phrase "Half Blood Prince" makes me think of a positive character in the story and Draco is not a positive character.

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Star Crossed - Jul 18, 2004 5:09 pm (#866 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Redneck, I don't know if I understood this correctly, but it seems to me that you are calling Draco a halfblood through his mother. Sirius said the Blacks are all purebloods.

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Round Pink Spider - Jul 18, 2004 5:11 pm (#867 of 2923)

Crazed Writer
Just a quick comment, MickeyCee,

JKR never said that the HBP is someone alive right now. It could be background information that leads Harry to some discovery about something or someone current.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 18, 2004 5:18 pm (#868 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Star crossed- Redneck meant that the Black blood is noble or royal whereas Malfoy blood is not. Both are pure wizarding blood, but half-blood does not have to refer to wizarding. It is most likely about wizarding, but not necessary. That means that Draco is a half-blood in realation to royalty. He's half royal. This was a theory I had come up with somewhere on this thread as well (several hundred posts back). I don't think it is likely, but it is an interesting possibility.

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Star Crossed - Jul 18, 2004 5:20 pm (#869 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Oops! Thanks for clearing it up. Very Happy

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Leila 2X4B - Jul 18, 2004 5:37 pm (#870 of 2923)

I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
This whole HBP is going to drive me nuts. I want to know, now. I still am firm in my belief that it will be some sort of charleton. It will cause a good deal of tension between the Voldy fighters and the wizarding public, who quite frankly, are easily fooled. HogsHead: The saying is from Red Dwarf, a British comedy, from an episode entitled WhiteHole. The quote was made by the last human alive, Lister, to a demented talking toaster called Talkie Toaster(patent pending).

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Stringer - Jul 18, 2004 7:22 pm (#871 of 2923)

Sleeping Beauty I knew I had heard the line about toast before.... it' been a long time since I have seen cat spraying things "mine".

I believe the HBP is someone who is not alive and kicking in the story-meaning I don't think it is a character we see all the time. There are sooo many fish in the sea, the HBP could be anyone (except Harry and Voldermort).

I am leaning toward Harry finding out about the history of a HBP, and that it will not be very happy history. I am not sure if this history will even have anything to do with Harry. Possibly it could lead him towards a weakness in Voldermort.

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potterfan79 - Jul 18, 2004 7:33 pm (#872 of 2923)

I was just reviewing some info on JKR's website and I reread the edit's section. The first one she posted was the Dean Thomas history which she seemed to never be able to reveal. It's about how he never new who his real father was, and would somehow discover that he was a wizard which makes Dean a half blood wizard.

Then I read the Opening chapters on the 6th book. JKR says that she meant to put this chapter in PS/SS, but couldn't, then tried it in POA and OotP, and now she's finally been able to include it in the HBP. What if the chapter pertains to Dean's family history? Makes me wonder if he could be the HBP. I love to speculate, even though my speculations almost always end up being wrong when I make it to the end of the Potter books. Wink Just a thought.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 18, 2004 8:25 pm (#873 of 2923)

Yeah but if you read on her website about Dean Thomas, you kind've come up against the wall where she says she decided to abandon Dean Thomas's back-story in favor of Neville Longbottom's, because his story was more impoartant to the central plot. That would seem to indicate that she's not going to be using Dean Thomas in any significant way. Whatever else the HBP is, he's probably going to be significant.

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JK Powers - Jul 18, 2004 10:23 pm (#874 of 2923)

no relation
Didn't Lucius accuse Arthur Weasley of being a "muggle king" or something in the bookshop scene with Lockhart? I've read other posts suspecting Weasley of rising up in the ministry, which would not be surprising given the recent good fortune befalling that family.

So, I speculate, if Weasley is mockingly referred to as "muggle-lover" or "Half-blood king/prince" by Lucius and other Death Eaters. Then the HBP could be referring to him or possibly, by extension, Ron, who already has the "Weasley is our king" theme song going for him.

Thoughts?

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 19, 2004 1:08 am (#875 of 2923)

Although I like the idea about it being Krum, I wouldn't say he's at all arrogant. He never boasts about his Quidditch acheivements, or anything for that matter. Ron might think he is, but I really doubt he's a fair judge of character for anyone who's as open in his affection for Hermione as he is, I think, secretive in the same.

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Elanor - Jul 19, 2004 1:29 am (#876 of 2923)

Hello everybody ! I’ve just read your messages of the night and thought there are some very interesting ideas in them. The Draco theory could make sense, but I’m not convinced by it. I’m still thinking that Gryffindor is the HBP, and Round pink spider is right : JKR never said the HBP is someone alive right now. I have found new clues to reinforce that theory.

First, I still believe that the original conflict between Slytherin and Gryffindor (and their own supporters of course) is the key of everything : the actual war in the wizarding world is no more no less than another –and maybe the last – battle of this conflict.

I don’t know if you are familiar with medieval history and legends, but they defenitely are important in the story. According to the Sorting Hat, the founders lived ‘A thousand years or more ago’, that is to say at the end of the 10th century when it was the feodal system. Yet, at that times, only Knights and kings used to wear a sword. It was the symbol of their status, and more than that, of their commitment to serve God, their lord and the people they had to protect, for it was a very troubled period. The sword was also for the knight a constant companion. Swords, and what they represented, were so important that famous ones often had names : Arthur’s was Excalibur, Charlemagne’s Joyeuse (joyful), Roland’s Durandal... Therefore, we know that Gryffindor had, I quote : “A gleaming silver sword [...] its handle glittering with rubies the size of eggs” : it is surely not a very common one for that time. This sword had to belong to a powerfull knight, even maybe a royal one... See the point ?

We can even go further : I think that the fact that the Sorting Hat, who once belonged to Gryffindor, gave that sword to Harry is really highly important, especially when we know that books 2 and 6 are closely bound. At Gryffindor’s time, there was a very important ceremony for the Knights, it was called the dubbing. It was an admission rite and, above all, the presentation of his weapons to the new knight. Most of the time, it happened during a feast, but in case of emmergency, it could be done on a battle field unexpectedly. During that ceremony, the oldest knight (he was called his Godfather) gave a knock on the shoulder, or the nape of the head, of the youngest with the flat part of the sword. Doesn’t it remind you something? You know what it means : what if Harry had just been “dubbed “ during the chamber of secrets battle by old Gryffindor’s hat which still has got some of his brains ? Through the time, Gryffindor would, in this way be, a sort of godfather commitionning Harry to keep on his fight...

Sorry if I bored you, but it was on my mind for a while and I was longing for sharing it with you all ! Tell me what you think of it, ok?

PS : By the way, did you know that, in medieval times, swords were known for having protective or magical things set in their handles ?

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Devika - Jul 19, 2004 4:17 am (#877 of 2923)

Elanor, I think you have a very interesting idea. It seems more likely to me now that if the HBP is indeed someone from the past then he could well be Gryffindor. I totally agree with you about the Gryffindor vs. Slytherin thing being a major base of the big plot.

I am confused right now about whether I think that the HBP is from the past or the present. Somehow, I don't see another brand new character who emerges now and comes to become so important as to actualy rival Harry and Voldemort in terms of affecting the dynamics of a current plot. In that case, either this HPB is just a metaphor or a person from the past. And referring to the paralells between Book 3 and Book 7 that could well be possible.

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eifmp - Jul 19, 2004 8:04 am (#878 of 2923)

WILD THEORY HERE!!!!

The Half blood prince is the son of Hermione and Ron travelled back in time. He travels back in time to prevent harry from dying because if he dies and Voldemort lives, obviously it's chaos.

Wild theory...Tell me about it.

Trivia Question: What year did Dumbledore defeat the dark wizard Grindelwald

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Aeoliano - Jul 19, 2004 9:23 am (#879 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Hi Elanor,

I enjoyed your brief on the history and meaning of swords!

But in myth did not wizards carry swords as well. Gandalf carried a very famous sword, glamdring. As a midieval wizard of Merln's ilk it wouldn't seem right for Gryffindor not to have a very special sword. And shouldn't the same would be true for Salazar Slytherin?

In Tolkien, (although this seems missing from the movies), the true sign of a king is that the hands of a true King are the hands of a healer. It was when Aragorn went forth through the city healing wounds that the people knew he was their true king.

As a descendent of Aragorn, (I interpret this from CS Lewis), Arthur is able to heal the land through the powers of the Holy Grail.

I'm not sure what the sign of a half-blood prince might be tho.. :-(

-- A.

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KWeldon - Jul 19, 2004 10:37 am (#880 of 2923)

I don't know if this theory has been suggested yet in this thread, because I don't have time to read all of it, but here goes, and I'm sure someone else has already said this, although perhaps not here.

I think a clue to figuring out who the HBP is begins with the absence of the hyphen between the words Half and Blood. Rules of punctuation dictate that this hyphen is required, and for JKR to make this error seems implausible, especially when proper punctuation is becoming discussed more frequently due to Lynne Truss' Eats, Shoots, and Leaves book doing so well (a British book, mind you).

The rule is that if two words are used together as an adjective to describe a noun, then they must be hyphenated. Therefore, that suggests that the title is really referring to half of a blood prince. This would be just like JKR to mislead us with the truth being right in front of our noses.

Now, when you think blood prince, vampires come to mind, right? In fact, "Dracula" was actually based on a true Romanian Prince named Vlad Tepes, (pronounced Tzepesh). This suggests that the blood prince is a vampire, or perhaps has or had one parent that is a vampire.

Although JKR has yet to confirm this, there has been considerable speculation that Snape is a vampire. He never seems to be asleep at night, he immediately checked for the presence of his reflection in the Foe glass in GoF when he entered the room, stuff like that.

Thoughts, anyone?

As a complete aside, I've always speculated that there is some connection between Snape and Lily, and that Snape's duplicity is a direct result of Voldemort failing to promise Snape not to hurt her. Just my two knuts on what at least some of the subject of Book 6 may pertain to, particularly when we are supposed to find out more about Lily soon.

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Star Crossed - Jul 19, 2004 10:54 am (#881 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Actually, JKR has said Snape is not a vampire.

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KWeldon - Jul 19, 2004 11:03 am (#882 of 2923)

Star Crossed,

I couldn't remember if she had actually said that, or others were just speculating it. Thanks for confirming it.

It still is possible that the prince is a half-vampire, though.

Or maybe "half" refers to size, not amount? As in a really short person/being, but surely not Dobby or Flitwick.....although "something small" in CoS could certainly have been Dobby, size-wise! Again, just like JKR to have us assume she means "briefly mentioned" in CoS when she really is referring to its size.

KWeldon.

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 19, 2004 11:18 am (#883 of 2923)

I've noticed that JKR has been strangely silent about the Ravenclaw house. No where in the books does it say who the head of the Ravenclaw house is or who their resident ghost is. Any information that we have come from interviews. Also Harry doesn't share any classes with Ravenclaw students. (He has herbology with Hufflepuffs and COMC and potions with the Slytherins).

On the threads it has been suggested that Flitwick might be a dwarf, goblin or even part house elf. I would like to propose another far fetched theory that Flitwick might be part goblin and the HBP. Flitwick's royalty comes from his goblin side.

The immediate protest will most likely be that if Flitwick is half goblin and half human he is a cross breed and not half blood. BUT, suppose it is a myth in the wizarding world that goblins are not human? That it is only prejudice that makes people think that Goblins are a different species.

There's not too much connection between Book 2 and goblins or even Professor Flitwick although I believe it is in this book that Hermione says Flitwick was a champion dueler. The part about goblins and humans being closely related may be the part that JKR decided was better for book 6 than book 2.

The Chaser in Post 405 had suggested Ragnold might be the HBP which is what inspired me to think of Flitwick. If it isn't Flitwick maybe it's his son.

Regardless of who the HBP is, I think in book 6 we will learn more about the goblin wars, and the secret behind Ravenclaw.

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 19, 2004 11:31 am (#884 of 2923)

JKR didn't actually say Snape isn't a vamp, but it's pretty sure. When asked if there was a "connection" between Snape and vampires, she replied: "I don't think so." In other words, pretty much he's not a vamp. Very theoretically she could be fooling us, but... I doubt it. I just hope a vampire shows up somewhere.

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potterfan79 - Jul 19, 2004 12:53 pm (#885 of 2923)

KWeldon, that's a really interesting theory, especially the grammar lesson part. If we were to apply that grammar theory it might also apply to Hagrid being the Half Blood Prince, though I'm not really a fan of that possibility. I love Hagrid, but I don't think he could be the prince.

rambkowalczyk, JKR says that Flitwick is the head of Ravenclaw house in her webiste. I would like to know more about the other houses too, but I think JKR simply hasn't had the chance to explain more about them.

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KWeldon - Jul 19, 2004 1:30 pm (#886 of 2923)

potterfan,

Why would it also apply to Hagrid as a Blood Prince, a vampire? My point is that it doesn't mean half-blood, as in Hagrid being a half-blood giant. It means a Blood Prince, but only in part.

Smile

KWeldon

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KWeldon - Jul 19, 2004 1:32 pm (#887 of 2923)

As a follow-up to my suggestion, the title could alternatively refer to an entity that is not a person or living thing. It could be an image, or goal for someone, or even an object, like a statue.

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MrsGump - Jul 19, 2004 1:40 pm (#888 of 2923)

I don't think Half-Blood or Half Blood means anything different in the world of Harry Potter, or at least to JKR. I'm pretty sure both versions have been used in the books, both referring to someone of partial Muggle heritage.

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KWeldon - Jul 19, 2004 1:55 pm (#889 of 2923)

I have to respectfully disagree. I would doubt that JKR would make such an error/inconsistency for the title of the book. She gives things way too much thought for that, IMHO.

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potterfan79 - Jul 19, 2004 2:24 pm (#890 of 2923)

KWeldon, oh yeah I guess I misread you're meaning. I was thinking along the lines that you were refering to a part human, which is why I thought of Hagrid in that case. Although, as I think about that now, I guess vampires aren't part human are they, at least not like half giants are.

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MrsGump - Jul 19, 2004 2:48 pm (#891 of 2923)

Below are a couple of definitions from the One Look site. Notice that both use half blood and half-blood as being the same thing.

Maybe the lack of the hyphen is because it looks better in the title then using the term with it? Or maybe because it's a proper title that the hyphen is gone?

half blood also half-blood (hfbld, häf-) n.

The relationship existing between persons having only one parent in common. A person existing in such a relationship. Offensive. A person of mixed racial descent, especially a person of Native American and white parentage. A half-blooded domestic animal.

[Download or Buy Now] Source: The American Heritage®️ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright ©️ 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Main Entry: half–blood Pronunciation: 'haf-'bl&d, 'hof- Variant: or half–blood•ed /-bl&d-&d/ Function: adjective : having half blood or being a half blood

Source: Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, ©️ 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

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Elanor - Jul 19, 2004 3:56 pm (#892 of 2923)

Thanks Aeoliano!

In fact, I thought a lot about this sword because Gryffindor is the only wizard in the story which is known for having another weapon than his wand. Even in duels, wizards only use wands, which can be lethal. Gryffindor was a powerful wizard, so why did he need a sword for? The only answer is that that particuliar sword is more than a weapon. Therefore, it may be the emblem of his family, and thus of his social status. More, you can remember that Gryffindor’s emblem at Hogwarts is a lion, royal emblem if there ever was one (I have a lot of symbolism explanations about lions in medieval times if you’re interested in) .

But, you’re right, that doesn’t mean that Slytherin didn’t have one too. It seems really interesting though that Gryffindor’s sword was kept with so much deference through the centuries : it is in the Headmaster’s office and treated with great respect. So, I think it has to be more about it, for the only other reason for Gryffindor having this sword is that it is a powerful magical weapon, but then, we haven’t seen his magic yet... It can also be an social emblem AND a magical weapon of course...

By the way, your reminder of Tolkien's universe is very interesting. It is true that Gandalf had a sword, and, more, Glamdring was a magical one for it “shone with a blue light in the presence of Orcs” (R.Foster “The complete guide to Middle-Earth”). But, if you look at it, swords have the same social status’ importance in Tolkien’s work : for exemple, bearing Narsil’s shards was one of Aragorn’s proofs of lineage. I can be mistaken but I think all the other swords of the books which have names belong, or at the time they were made once belonged, to royal families, even Glamdring was made at the begenning for Turgon, king of Gondolin and High King of the Noldor long before Gandalf found it.

But you are completely right about the healing power of kings ! It’s brilliant, because, if Gryffindor is the HBP, that leads the way to highly exciting prospects for book 6 ! You have given me a lot of new food for thought, thanks !

Elanor

PS : forgive my english errors, but it is really late here (nearly 1 am) and I am too tired to try to correct them now!

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 19, 2004 3:59 pm (#893 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
KWeldon- I had thought of Vampires as well. I mentioned it around post 300. I came to it a different way from you. I took half blood to literally mean the prince had half as much blood. In some Vampire myths, Vampires cannot keep blood in their system. That is why they must drink it and also why they are pale. To slightly support that theory, Lockhart assigns Voyages with Vampires for the kids. It is, I believe, the most mentioned Lockhart book.

Eifmp- I don't think it will be a child of Hermione and Ron. However, at least you had the child coming back from the future and not them having it in the 6th year. I think it would be kind of funny to see Ron's reaction to a child he had in the future with Hermione. He hasn't even really admitted to himself he likes her in that way. Maybe that is what it will take to kick-start their relationship. Personally I envision Harry and Ginny tricking them into a date, but that is for another thread.

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Aeoliano - Jul 19, 2004 5:03 pm (#894 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Hi Elanor,

Thank you again for enlightening us and, yes, you have convinced me to attempt to understand the symbolism associated with the Griffin. But it sounds like you may have done all of this already! That would be great! I'm not sure if Richard the lion heart had a lion or a griffin on his crest?

I do know that the griffin is the symbol for the ancient Etruscan city of Perugia. I attended school there so I should at least know that... ~laugh~ beyond that I really do not know much more. But, now I would like to know as much as possible in order to do some sleuthing using the symbolism associated with any talisman once carried by Godrick Gryffindor.

So of course I am interested!

-- A.

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Hector Flores - Jul 19, 2004 5:37 pm (#895 of 2923)

Rowling said that clues about Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince can be found in Book 2. I think it has things to do with house-elfs. Can you remember how easily Dobby stopped Mr. Malfoy when he wanted to attack Harry. And Mr. Malfoy is one of the most dangerous death eaters as it was shown in the Department of Mysteries. I think house-elfs will play an important part in the Second War. And maybe Hermoine will play an important part on that. What do you think?

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popkin - Jul 19, 2004 5:47 pm (#896 of 2923)

mother
Okay, I think this is a new suggestion. What if the Half Blood Prince is Trevor? Does Trevor have any purpose in this story other than being the pet that Neville repeatedly loses? Maybe he is a cursed (half-blood) prince who is just waiting for the right princess (or fair maiden) to give him a kiss.

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Sano - Jul 19, 2004 6:39 pm (#897 of 2923)

I think I'm going to have to agree with the Godric Gryfinndor supporters on this one. The scorch marks, fawkes, and the sword and hat all playing such an important role in book 2 just makes me think that it could be him. Other then that, the only other one I would like seeing it be would be Hagrid. Smile

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KWeldon - Jul 19, 2004 6:42 pm (#898 of 2923)

Mrs. Gump,

I see what you are saying in essence, although that definition is for a noun. My whole point is that as an *adjective* it should be hyphenated, and it is not, in this case. I will be the first to note that the absence of a hyphen may prove nothing--it's just a theory, but its absence has bothered me from the first time I saw JKR write the title.

I'm hoping for vampires, though (and my personal favorite, lethifolds).

KWeldon

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Aeoliano - Jul 19, 2004 7:11 pm (#899 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Snakes are associated with griffins!

The griffin or gryphon is a mythical quadruped with the foreparts of an eagle and the rear, tail and hindquarters of a lion. Its eagle-like head had pointed, upstanding ears like those of an ass. Feathers grew upon its head, neck and chest and the rest of the griffin’s body was covered in leonine fur, subtly colored in shades of tawny brown. Aelian said the wings of griffins were white and their necks were variegated in colour with blue feathers. The griffin claws were especially valuable as they were reputed to change color in the presence of poison, which is why they made useful drinking vessels. At times, it is portrayed with a long snake-like tail. In some traditions, only the female has wings. Its nests are made of gold and its eggs resemble agates. It is supposed to be of gigantic proportions, the morphology being left to our own deduction after we have been informed that one claw is the size of a cow's horn.

There are a number of different types of griffins;

the snake-griffin has a lion’s body, a snake’s head and a bird’s legs; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

We've seen the other two in HP... where oh where could this one be hiding?

the lion-griffin is lion-like but has hind legs shaped like those of a bird.

The hippogryph, living far beyond the seas in the Rhiphaean Mountains, is the result of the rare breeding of a male gryphon and a filly. It has the head, wings and front legs of a gryphon, and the back and hind legs of a horse. It is a large powerful creature that can move through the air more swiftly than ligthning. It figured in several of the legends of Charlemagne as a mount for some of the knights. The Hypogriffin is a mix of a griffin and a horse.

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narisa - Jul 19, 2004 10:19 pm (#900 of 2923)

Well, talking about sword. What I think about that Griffindor sword is that sword represents brave and we all know that Griffindor valued brave beyond anything. I also think that the others may have something in the hat waiting their true students to have it. If that is true, maybe it is someone in DA. I don't know if the sword has anything to do with HBP, but I just can't believe it.

Beside, half blood or half-blood mystery is good, when you point out that I begin to suspect. And I also think Flicwick being a dueling champion will have some important. Only not HBP

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Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:55 pm

Elanor - Jul 19, 2004 11:25 pm (#901 of 2923)
Hello Aeoliano ! You’ve done a very interesting research here! Right now, I’m trying to gather the informations I have concerning lions and griffins and will post them later today. See you then !

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S.E. Jones - Jul 19, 2004 11:53 pm (#902 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Elanor and Aeoliano, this is not the thread to place all this research on. It does not add to the overall discussion. When people do research, they do the research on their own and then only give the finer and more interesting points as a summary of what they've found, not all their research material. If you would like to start a research thread, then one can certainly be looked at to collect all this research on, but this is not the place to start collecting it.

Thanks....

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Ozymandias - Jul 20, 2004 12:20 am (#903 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
What if the Half Blood Prince is Trevor? -Popkin

Ooh, I like it! Okay, so it may not be the most probable theory, there may be no canon evidince for it, but Trevor has shown up way too much to be just Neville's pet. Look what Scabbers turned out to be! The only problem is, how would this fit into the larger story?

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Devika - Jul 20, 2004 2:35 am (#904 of 2923)

I'd like to go back to KWeldon's point about the hyphen in the title. I agree that the presence and absence of a hyphen can change the complete meaning of a statement or sentence. But somehow, in this case, it seems to me that JKR does indeed mean the "half-blood" Prince. There are two basic reasons for this. One is that the concept of pure and half-bloods is central to the plot. I see no reason why she would want to use it as a cover for something else.. it is mysterious enough, and has enough in it to warrant a book title. Also, if we do assume that these are separate adjectives, the word blood prince makes no real sense even if, as I doubt, she was referring a half of that person.

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Frank Kempken - Jul 20, 2004 3:24 am (#905 of 2923)

Hello, Mrs. Rowling made it quite clear that neither "You know who" nor Harry are the half-blood prince. Therefore she either needs to present a new figure or else, a known figure is the half-blood prince.

As I stated earlier, Seamus Finnegan is a good candidate. In the movie - which had deleted many scenes from the book - Seamus could be seen telling "I am half and half". Apparently that information was considered to be important.

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Elanor - Jul 20, 2004 3:47 am (#906 of 2923)

Well, sorry if I bored you S.E.Jones, but I thought this were the place where you try to pick up clues on who the HBP would be, how it could be connected to the story and see if others theories could emerge from it. That's why I thought giving details and explore them could be more interesting than trying to guess at random. Now, as obviously I was wrong, just tell me where I can post it for Aeoliano or other who could be interested in because I'm not very used to forums and I am a little lost by now ! Elanor.

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Wannabemuggle - Jul 20, 2004 4:49 am (#907 of 2923)

Romi the Arts student
I reallt like the idea of Neville having a major role in this next book, because as we all know he was in the running tobe marked by Voldy. Now, im not sure as to the blood history for the Longbottom family, so i dont know if its possible for Neville to be the HBP, but this makes me believe that the tension between Neville and Snape may have some link to the Half Blood Prince.Why else would there be such a big emphasis of Nevilles fear of Snape in every book? It was his 'worst fear' in PoA which was also kinda cute... I just really like the idea of Snape having a kick-butt role in this book. I love Snape's character. I also like the idea that Neville turns out to be more important than Harry.

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Star Crossed - Jul 20, 2004 5:25 am (#908 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Wannabe, Neville is a pureblood. Dumbledore told Harry that Voldemort chose Harry because he was a halfblood like him.

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Pinky - Jul 20, 2004 6:00 am (#909 of 2923)

La la narf!
Elanor, it's a fine balance - trying to present background and reasoning for a theory, versus providing too many facts. If a post is really long, you run the risk of losing your audience half-way through it, or they may just skim your post, hoping to pick up the important points but not really reading it. On the other hand, if your post is too short, no one may understand how you got to your conclusion. I doubt anyone has gotten "bored" on this thread. Everything you said in your above post is absolutely correct. This is the place to "pick up clues on who the HBP would be, how it could be connected to the story and see if others theories could emerge from it." Perhaps, you could try writing out your longer theories in a word processor, then attempt to edit it and take out anything not vital. Try tightening your reasoning and writing more concisely. (I feel like an English Literature teacher! *grin*) If you have any more questions, feel free to e-mail me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], or you can certainly e-mail S.E. Jones or any of the other moderators. Please do not continue this conversation on this thread - let's keep it just for the HBP - whoever he is!

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narisa - Jul 20, 2004 6:02 am (#910 of 2923)

Here come my conclusion for all theories for the question whois HBP. Tell me if I forget someone.

1. Godric Griffindor-this is one of the most famous theories here eventhough I don't believe it. If this is true, it will be the easiest-guess mystery JK ever make.(I don't count OoP before the book arrived, because that is obvious, not a mystery)

2.Tom Riddle-this was famous too. But died out these day.

3.Hagrid-he was a popular theory,many believe in this.

4.Seamus or Dean-kind of equal vote, keep come up sometimes.

5.Ginny-well, she is a girl, not a guy. But who knows, maybe JK will tell us it should be a princess, not a prince.~laugh~ Not funny? OK, sorry for that.

6.Neville

7.Trevor

8.Flicwict or relative

9.Snape

10.DD-I forget the true spelling, is it Dumbeldor?

11.relative of Mason-suggest by me.(no one even comment on this.

12.Lockhart-many keep wondering why he is back.

13.Lupin-I didn't write his name last time.I cann't find it. Thanks for telling me Kwikspell.

14.Salazar Slytherin-Thanks again Kwikspell.

15. a vampire

16.new charecter

17.Nearly Headless Nick or other ghost.

18.Dobby-for his differences from other elves.

19. That Slytherin guy who see thestral.

I think this ia all. Please tell me if I forget someone.

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Star Crossed - Jul 20, 2004 6:49 am (#911 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 6:52 am
1.) I don't think this was obvious. I think it took a while to think of. People such as Riddle and Hagrid seem obvious. They were the very first to be thought of.

2.) I don't think Riddle is the HBP. I don't think JKR would lie to us. Yes, believers of this (What are you? The applecart? The ship? I forget. *hides*) say there is evidence with Dobby, but that's because Dobby wouldn't say Voldemort, so it was You-Know-Who. When Riddle was growing up, he was known as Lord Voldemort and Tom Riddle. There was no You-Know-Who. So if Dobby would be brave enough to say 'Lord Voldemort', he could have answered, 'Yes, Harry Potter. It is Lord Voldemort. But younger.' Actually, now that I think about it, didn't Harry say You-Know-Who so as not to upset Dobby? I don't have my books, so I don't know, but I'm almost positive and then Dobby says "No, Harry Potter, not You-Know-Who..." meaning he was not you know who back then because no one knew who when he was sixteen. (Wow. Does that make any sense?)

3.) I don't like this one either, because, as I said, it's very obvious. Plus, I don't think his mother would be a Gurg, because that's not how they work. I doubt anything changed in fifty years, except they killed each other more.

4.) I actually sort of like Seamus one. Having Seamus say he was halfblood in the first movie when they did not even have the Potions problem, I think this is important. As for Dean, JKR said his history would never come into play, and I believe her. I don't think she would lie.

5.) Didn't know Ginny was having a gender identy problem. Poor girl...er...boy...er...Weasley.

6.) Neville isn't halfblood, Dumbledore even said he's Pureblood, and that's why Voldemort chose Harry instead, so I believe he was telling the truth.

7.) I don't know if people are actually serious about this, but I can't see it happening unless JKR pulls a Disney and starts having all animals talking. I can't see a toad being the HBP. It sort of scares me. All the evidence we have for this is he shows up a lot.

8.) I don't really know too much about this. I can't say if I hate it or like it, but it seems okay. I wouldn't hate it if it happened, basically.

9.) I think Snape is an obvious choice, and I think he's a pureblood. Plus, I think he's too big a character. I think the HBP is someone we don't know that well yet.

10.) Dumbledore. Same for Snape. I think he's a pureblood, and I think he's too big a character for it.

11.) Was told not to comment, so I shan't.

12.) JKR said he wouldn't come back, and she was surprised he made it into OP. Plus, he has that whole memory problem right now...Plus, I think that's something he would just say in CoS, along with all his other titles.

13.) Remus wasn't known in CoS, and if he was taken out for PoA, that would destroy how all the DADA professors were unknown before the book in which they taught.

14.) I could deal with Salazar being the HBP. I don't think he's halfblood, but it's possible.

15.) A vampire is possible. Sort of puts an amusing twist on half blood. Also, it would explain why vampires are mentioned so many times.

16.) Very, very probable. It would not surprise me.

17.) I haven't really heard anything about this. I guess it could work, but they don't have any blood, so, okay.

18.) Dobby is possible, if a little obvious, but not totally.

19.) We don't know enough about him to judge. I guess that could be helpful in the argument, but just because he can see Thestrals? Hm. We'll have to see about it.

EDIT: Yeah, I know I seem really negative in this post, but since we're always showing why someone could be the HBP, I decided it would also be helpful to showing the negatives.

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narisa - Jul 20, 2004 7:07 am (#912 of 2923)

no. I don't mean you can't comment the 11.relative of Mason-suggest by me.(no one even comment on this). I mean no one seem to interest in it so I don't know what people think.

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Green Eyes - Jul 20, 2004 7:24 am (#913 of 2923)

I interpreted Dobby's explanation to Harry about why he told Harry that the whole chamber thing was not about He who must not be named as telling us that Tom Riddle was considered a separate entity from Voldemort (at least for a time). So when he told Harry that the chamber business was not about Voldemort/He who must not be named...then he was essentially telling the truth. Dobby isn't the only being in the wizarding world who doesn't call Voldemort by name, but when they do say You know who or He who must not be named, we know they mean Voldemort.

When the chamber had been opened 50 years before, it was Tom Riddle who opened it. He may have been starting to call himself by his new name, but others did not yet know him as such. Dobby obviously knew about the Diary (we see this at the end when Lucius Malfoy comes to Dumbledore's office). So I still think that it is possible that TR is the HBP.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 20, 2004 7:41 am (#914 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 7:42 am
From chapter 18 of CoS:

"I've just one question, Dobby," said Harry..."You told me all this had nothing to do with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, remember? Well-"

"It was a clue, sir," said Dobby, his eyes widening as if this were obvious. "Was giving you a clue. The Dark Lord, before he changed his name, could be freely named, you see?"

Nowhere does Dobby say the Dark Lord before he changed his name was a different person. It says he could be freely named and thus was not He-Who-Must-Not-Be--Named until later. Using He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named is the key distinction. JKR uses Voldemort. <---See my eyes widening as if this were obvious.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 20, 2004 7:53 am (#915 of 2923)

Hi, folks. Long time, no post, but here's an idea I haven't seen around (I skimmed this thread back to about a week and a half ago). Not an original idea, my gardening buddy just blurted it out as we were digging when I brought up the title of book 6. I was rattling on about the hyphen issue (I think it means something, but I'm like Lynn Truss--a stickler), and she just said, "What if it's Draco?" Wow. Draco?

That bit Ron says to make Hermione feel better, how nobody's really pure-blood anymore, Draco's upper-crust, hoity-toity family, his sense of entitlement, the arrogance of the whole family--all princely (not in the nice sense) characteristics. DD's comment that he's so relieved that Harry wasn't raised like a little prince is contrasted quite clearly with all of Draco's traits. Hmmm. What do you think? Can anybody think of a strong Draco=prince thing in CoS to strengthen the JKR's hint that the big clue is in CoS? I'm pondering that now.

Remember, not totally my idea, but worth adding to the list. Sorry, again, if it's already been thrown out, but I glaze over if I read too far back in the thread.

Ciao. Barb

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Aeoliano - Jul 20, 2004 8:14 am (#916 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Hmmm, well after having spent a long time on various USENET newsgroups I must admit that I am a bit perplexed and surprised by the lack of manners and the almost dictatorial approach to posts? I have seen other long-winded and non-sequitor posts which appear and are left without any sort of "red edit marks" or what amount to really offensive retorts for their posts? It almost seems as if rules are being made "on-the-fly"? I would therefore suggest reading the excellent paper written on Internet etiquette by the USENET.

-- A.

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Star Crossed - Jul 20, 2004 8:25 am (#917 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
USENET? What's that?

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KWeldon - Jul 20, 2004 8:27 am (#918 of 2923)

Dear Barb,

It's nice to meet a fellow stickler! I didn't call myself one because I assumed no one would understand what I meant. I have a real problem with such an accomplished writer making such an error, particularly in a part of the book that is so prominent.

Regarding Draco, if he were a half-blood, then the non-wizarding blood would have to come from Lucius, since Narcissa is clearly a pureblood, right (I don't have OotP with me to refer to the chapter where Sirius is discussing his family history)?

I can't remember if Lucius' family history is discussed, but it would be a nice twist "a la Voldemort" to despise people who are less than purebloods when he in fact is not one, although I'd be surprised for JKR to use this element when it's already been done before, without good reason. If this were true, I wonder how it would play out, with Lucius presumably headed for Azkaban? Or is he already there? I can't remember.

KWeldon

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Hollywand - Jul 20, 2004 8:51 am (#919 of 2923)

Gryffindor
Perhaps the Half Blood Prince is the Bloody Baron, the Slytherin ghost. A Baron is from a the lowest rung of nobility. He is described as covered in silver blood. Perhaps unicorn blood, but also perhaps quicksilver, or mercury. In alchemy, mercury is thought to sublimate into gold after vitifrication. Lots of alchemists, in addition to looking for the Philosopher's Stone, spent a lot of time trying to change mercury into gold. Issac Newton, perhaps our last great sorcerer, spent a lot of his scientific career working with mercury to transform it to gold. Hogwarts Ghostwar?

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Aeoliano - Jul 20, 2004 8:53 am (#920 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
USENET- UNIX users group NET. The original decentralised "forum" or "bulletin board". And the first non-government use of what was the Internet (ARPANET). Without the arrival of USENET it is very likely you would not have this forum, and perhaps, not even the Internet.

Or you could try looking it up ...

--- A.

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Star Crossed - Jul 20, 2004 9:02 am (#921 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Hollywand, that's really something. I like that idea. I don't know much about nobility, but I have heard the word Baron a few times. What is it actually?

Aeoliano, thanks.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 20, 2004 9:04 am (#922 of 2923)

Having been on usenet, I can personally say that things are at least as arbitrarily done on there as they are on here, and there is much more room given to people abusing one another.

As for the Harry Potter Lexicon, I have this to say. Kip and Steve are VERY laid back about this forum, and have very few rules they want us to live by. The major ones go something like a) be nice to each other, b) keep the comments kid-friendly, c) stay on topic, and d) we're talking about Harry Potter here.

I'd also suggest you review the thread entitled "Lexicon Forum Staff" before you go any further, because S.E. Jones isn't telling you what she did as a fellow poster. She's telling it to you as one of the moderators of this site.

Not that she needs my defense in any way, shape, or form, but I'll also say this. I have never, and I mean NOT EVER, seen Sarah say anything that was either arbitrary or prejudicial, which is a lot more than can be said about most of the moderators out there on the internet today. When she does take the time to comment on something, you can bet she has a valid reason for doing so.

That said, back to the subject at hand!

I don't really see Draco as being a half-blood. We know that Draco's mother was a pure blood because she was in the Black family (she's Bellatrix Lestrange and Andromeda Tonks's sister).

During the same point at which we learn Draco's mother's lineage, Sirius also comments that Narcissa made a "respectable pure-blood marriage", lending credence to the idea that Lucius Malfoy is a pure-blood. This is also supported at various other times in the series, such as the "mudblood" speech given in Hagrid's cabin by Ron after that slug curse went so horribly awry. In it, he refers to the Malfoys as pure-bloods, suggesting that he knew their lineage.

Plus, as I've said before, it would be very difficult for Lucius Malfoy to fake being a pure-blood. For my thoughts on that subject, see post #257 in this thread.

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Aeoliano - Jul 20, 2004 9:09 am (#923 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Speaking of getting away with some long research laden posts Andrew Buchanan...

Isn't this a bit like the pot calling the kettle black?

And as one of the implementors and "moderators" of USENET I would say that our comportment stood up quite well given the requirement that "freedom of speech" be maintained at all times...

-- A.

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Aeoliano - Jul 20, 2004 10:11 am (#924 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
Elanor here again is my hypothesis:

But I never knew about the griffin with a snake's head! It has the legs and feet of a bird or eagle. And the body of a lion. I was thinking that this must surely describe Harry Potter of Gryffindor! His abilities in Quidditch and on a broom are uncanny. He flies quite well. He is a parselmouth. He knows the thoughts, hungers, desires of serpents and especially the Baselisk! And he mostly certainly has the courage and spiritual strength of the lion.

The Griffin (snake headed) versus the Baselisk! Harry vs. Tom Riddle aka Lord Voldemorte.

Perhaps both are the HBP?

-- A.

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Elanor - Jul 20, 2004 10:31 am (#925 of 2923)

Hi again Aeoliano !

And thank you for all your messages. I love your idea, it really opens new horizons ! Till now, I never thought Griffin and Basilisk could be more than beasts, but you're completely right, they can be a kind of "extension" of their true selves ! It's brilliant ! I'm going to work on it (I'll try to find something about why Richard switched its crest too at the library tomorrow, I'm afraid my own books don't go that far !). About crests this is a very interesting site : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] where you can see all of them. Elanor

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 20, 2004 11:32 am (#926 of 2923)

Narisa: Nice Summary, There may be two that you left out. Ragnold who was a goblin, and possibly Draco. I think Draco was mentioned before Andrew Buchanan's post #922. Similiar lines of reasoning if I recollect.

As to your idea of the Masons. Weren't they Vernon's boss and wife who were invited to dinner in book 2? I doubt if they are secret wizards or squibs for that matter. I think they are just minor characters although a little larger than Mark Evans. I think her fear of birds is quite rational as its not normal for owls to be flying in the house.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 20, 2004 12:59 pm (#927 of 2923)

Ramb, I just realized that the name for Vernon's boss--Mason--is also the name of a very old fraternal organization which I believe is international. Similar to the Elks and the Shriners. The meetings involve a lot of mystical rituals, costumes, symbolism, some of it harkening back to a past clouded in secrecy and practices thought to be associated with the devil and witchcraft. Mozart's "The Magic Flute" is based on the Austrian Masons clubs, and pokes great fun at the hocus-pocus aspect of these groups while showing others how harmless they are, even benevolent. A great deal of ill will was aimed toward these kinds of clubs because they seemed to mimic the ornate and arcane rituals of the Church, and therefore diminish its powerful hold on society of the day. Nowadays I don't think anyone believes that.

My goodness! A long-winded explanation just to suggest that JKR is having fun with names again. Or not.

Ciao. Barb

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Warty Harris - Jul 20, 2004 3:47 pm (#928 of 2923)

I think the Half-Blood Prince is a prince. Not like the term Prince may be used like the artist formerly known as Prince or Prince Michael II aka blanket. Maybe a better term is Queen of Hearts (Diana) or King of Rock'n Roll (Elvis).

If this were the case then wouldn't the title be Harry Potter and the Prince of the Half Bloods? Indicating he is there Prince because he champions them? I would think the title JKR picked indicates this person is a Half-Blood and is a real Prince (or at least should be one?).

I think it could be Snape or Godric Gryffindor. Why Snape? I just think that Snape may come from a noble background. Godric Gryffindor may as well. I think it is possible that Gryffindor is half blood. I actually would think it mattered even less back then. Salazar Slytherin was the only one that had a problem with "mudbloods". In Chamber of Secrets it is a disrespect for mudbloods in particular that drives Slytherin. Not Half-Bloods. It could also be the Bloody Baron or Sir Nicholas de Mimsy Porpington. If this person is an actual Prince then he would have to be a Half-Blood. I do not know of any Royalty in the wizarding world.

Sorry if this has been brought up before.

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Star Crossed - Jul 20, 2004 3:52 pm (#929 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
To be a little off topic...

Actually, I don't think Salazar was in the wrong. Back then, muggles tried burning witches and wizards. I think he just wanted to keep them safe. Sure, it did get obsessive, but I think he tried to do the right thing first.

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Warty Harris - Jul 20, 2004 3:56 pm (#930 of 2923)

Most mudbloods understand the magical world though. Some mudbloods are the best witches and wizards of their age (Hermione) Why be so against mudbloods really? Magic was a little bit more part of society back then. I think it was more hatred than trying to protect the magical community.

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Star Crossed - Jul 20, 2004 3:59 pm (#931 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
We don't know though. We though Snape hated James and Harry because he was jealous. Then we find out James was actually mean to him. I don't think we should judge how Slytherin acted until we find the truth. After all, Gryffindor liked him.

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haymoni - Jul 20, 2004 4:00 pm (#932 of 2923)

I still think it's Hagrid.

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Lily Potter - Jul 20, 2004 4:18 pm (#933 of 2923)

Mother to Harry, Wife to James
Reading through this forum puts one in a bit of a hyper-analyzing state of mind, so here's one thought. Don't think it's been mentioned, as I scanned through all posts for Remus/Lupin.

In the 2004 chat with JKR, which I just read through, Rowling corrects a question to point out that Remus is Half Blood. No hyphen. She later mentions half-blood.

Siriusstar: Is Remus a pureblood? JK Rowling replies -> Half blood.

I assume it's over-analyzed, but that seems to a common pattern here. So I thought I'd throw that out there. Smile

When I first heard the title, Hagrid popped to mind. Had no idea there were so many other theories out there! Some could well be plausible Smile

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Professor V - Jul 20, 2004 4:59 pm (#934 of 2923)

First, I'd like to say that reading all of your ideas has been an invigorating experience. The amount of thought and work you all put into your theories is both astounding and a little intimidating. I never thought I'd feel like doing homework during my summers off from school, especially just to participate in a discussion about Harry Potter, but you've all made that quite enjoyable. Also, I'm sure my students would find it infinitely funny to watch me taking notes as I read all of your posts.

Second, Narisa, you had the same idea I did, to basically summarize all of the previously discussed candidates for the HBP (isn't it neat how "great" minds think alike). That said, I'd like to throw in my two knuts about a few of the candidates and who I think the HBP will be. I'll start with those I think won't make the cut.

1. Tom Riddle - With the references that JKR has made to finding clues to what will happen in book 6 in the CoS and with the knowledge that she once considered HBP to be the title of CoS, he becomes the first and most obvious choice to be the HBP. And that is exactly why I think he isn't the HBP.

2. Hagrid - While many people have postulated a variety of ways that he could be the HBP, none of them seem to totally add up. I think that many of these theories stem from the fact that we all love Hagrid, and want him to be more because we all know that he is a "prince" of a man. Besides I think his important and supportive role will bring him roaring back to the forefront of the story, along with the missing motorbike.

3. Snape - I feel that the HBP is going to be some sort of support to Harry and therefore the relationship between Harry and Snape is too contentious for it to work. Snape is going to be extremely important to the story during the next two books, there are to many unanswered questions about him for it to be otherwise.

4. Dean or Seamus - Even though we know that they are half bloods, I don't feel they are going to be taking on any larger roles in the story. I think JKR has already shown this a variety of ways. Dean - she says on her web side that she chose Neville's story over his (as evidenced by the fact that from book one on, Neville has had a more prominent placement in the story and a closer relationship with HRH). Seamus - yes he seemed to be brought out more during OotP, but I think that was just to illustrate the WW's changing perception of Harry.

5. Neville - He is an undoubtedly important character, with a growing role, but he is a pureblood. This gets him off the hook.

6. Godric Gryffindor - Honestly, I like this theory. I like the idea of Harry as his heir and that somehow Godric is the HBP and that he will help Harry to victory. But then I end up in time travel purgatory trying to explain how he can be there, so as a result he also misses the cut.

Now I realize I haven't covered all the candidates or theories but this post is growing by the second, literally, and I think I should move onto who I think the HBP is. (Can't you all just hear the drum roll?) I think the HBP will definitely be a new character and probably the new DADA teacher. (Sorry for all the build up and then a bit of a weeny answer.)

I think that JKR has set certain patterns, one is that the object/person referred to in the title of each book has been new to us, the readers, therefore, the same goes here. Also the DADA teacher has been new, follow the same pattern once again. Why do I think they combine into the HBP? My answer follows.

First, Harry needs someone to teach him and guide him. He has lost Sirius and to a certain extent Dumbledore. Second, SS/PS and CoS both had crappy DADA teachers followed by a great one in PoA, Lupin. Book 4 had a good but lets face it, slightly crazed teacher and OotP had Umbridge, enough said there. I think the pattern is that it is time for another great teacher. I think that the HBP will be that teacher. He is going to be Harry's mentor, someone who will be a guide or support in Harry's fight against Voldemort. Maybe someone who can help him identify/use the "power the Dark Lord knows not." Put this all together, and the new DADA teacher could be the HBP.

Summary: the HBP will be no one we know and are therefore I am unable to guess his identity.

Though I should point out that I would never have conceived the ideas behind any of the other books, therefore any theory I come up with is without a doubt not even remotely close. (But it sure is fun guessing.)

I hope some of what I said made sense. Sorry for the length, I hope I stepped on no one's toes. Please be kind, when tearing my theory to shreds. I can't wait to hear what you all think.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2004 5:11 pm (#935 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Aeoliano: I have seen other long-winded and non-sequitor posts which appear and are left without any sort of "red edit marks" or what amount to really offensive retorts for their posts? It almost seems as if rules are being made "on-the-fly"?

Andrew: As for the Harry Potter Lexicon, I have this to say. Kip and Steve are VERY laid back about this forum, and have very few rules they want us to live by. The major ones go something like a) be nice to each other, b) keep the comments kid-friendly, c) stay on topic, and d) we're talking about Harry Potter here.

Andrew is quite correct in his pointing out our very simple rules for the Lexicon Forum. I made the comment I did about the long research posts because, though they contained interesting bits of information, they did not sum up any view of who the HBP therefore could be and were, thus, off-topic (you will notice rule c: "stay on topic"). There is nothing wrong with research as long as there is some point to it (i.e. present some statement along with it so that it fits with the topic of the thread or make sure that it is directly answering another member's question). We have too many posts to track on a daily basis (we average 350+ daily) to fill them up with things not Harry Potter related.

If you have anymore questions or concerns, feel free to email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] or [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

Thanks!

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Land of the Shire - Jul 20, 2004 6:08 pm (#936 of 2923)

I think it's interesting that while there is so much discussion on the identity of the HBP, there is very little on the role he or she will play in the book.

I'll state that I'm firmly in the Godric Gryffindor camp. The term "prince" is an anachronism in modern western society. Even in countries like England that have a royal family, the role of princes is seldom more than ceremonial or mostly for the sake of tradition. That is why I think the Half Blood Prince is someone who lived long ago and not necessarily alive today or an active player in the storyline. That fits, as CoS deals so much with past events and the history of Hogwarts, much more so than the other four books.

Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are out, as they are both female and relatively small players in the stories we heard in CoS. Slytherin is out as he wanted magical learning to be restricted to full blooded witches and wizards. That leaves Godric Gryffindor.

If Gryffindor were a half blood, it could explain why his disagreement with Slytherin became such a source of contention at Hogwarts.

I like that the first paragraph of this post has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of it.

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Hogs Head - Jul 20, 2004 6:42 pm (#937 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Or maybe Slytherin himself was a half blood, a prince of sorts, which makes it logically sound or at least poetically just that he'd have an "heir." But wait -- I'm not picking a camp here.

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Lunar Tides - Jul 20, 2004 7:46 pm (#938 of 2923)

Hey everybody

I know that in a interview on the COS DVD, the camera shows the name of the hand Harry grabs in Knockturn Alley as the "Hand of Glory." I bet that this has some significance in Book 6, and because the Malfoys were in the same shop selling their "dark items," I think a main part of Book 6 and the identity and role of the HBP is involved somehow with the Malfoys. Because the Hand of Glory, according to legend, was a perfect tool for plunderers and thieves; the item seems to suit Draco and/or his family. Plus, "Prince" gives off a high-ranking name, and the Malfoys are rich after all. Since the Riddles were pretty rich also, maybe they are connected somehow with the Malfoys...

These are just some of my ideas. :-p Please prove any of my ideas wrong, if possible. ;-)

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 20, 2004 8:37 pm (#939 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Land of the Shire wrote: I think it's interesting that while there is so much discussion on the identity of the HBP, there is very little on the role he or she will play in the book.

It is kind of hard to determine what role someone will play before you know who that someone is. If the HBP is, for example,. Hagrid, he will have a much different role than if the HBP is, say, Salazar Slytherin. We have very little to go on regarding the half-blood prince at all. We have the title and possibly some connection to Book 2. Those point to who it is, not what they do. Once we have the who, we can work out the what, when, where, why, and how. I don't think we are there yet though.

Professir V wrote: I think the HBP will definitely be a new character and probably the new DADA teacher.

IT is possible and many have speculated it before; however, I have one caveat. You site tradition in your reasoning, JKR has always had a new DADA teacher and the title has always been about something relatively knew. There is also a tradition (if you can call 5 books that) of the title never reffering to a DADA teacher. If we are to believe JKR will stick to the other 2 traditions, I think we must believe she will probably stick with the third as well. Or maybe not

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 8:42 pm (#940 of 2923)

I agree that the title & the DADA teacher will be new; but I don't see why they couldn't be one and the same. I don't neccesarily think that they will be, but I don't see how them not being the same is really a tradition.

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potterfan79 - Jul 20, 2004 8:54 pm (#941 of 2923)

Please ecxuse the length. I hope you read it all, but feel free to skim if you want.

Warty Harris - I'm sorry to say I disagree that Snape could come from a noble background. There are things we've been told about his past that make me think otherwise. In the scene where Harry witnessed Snape's worst memory it seems he was a loner, even isolated, at Hogwarts, because he goes off on his own after the test. Now I'm not saying that to be wealthy or of noble blood that you have to have many friends good or bad, but if someone comes from a wealthy or noble background, chances are that person won't be a loner. Snape's greasy hair and greying underpants make me think he's either poor or at least he doesn't take care of his appearance. Someone from a noble or wealthy background probably has better hygiene. Finally we saw a small glimpse of possibly Snape's parents arguing. I know lots of families rich or poor argue, but it still makes me think Snape had a poor and rough childhood. OK bare with me because I have a couple more things to say. Sorry if you're bored or tired of reading. Oh, and as to whether Snape is pure or half blood, I don't think we really have any information from the books to lead us either way so we'll just have to see.

Lilly Potter - Lupin is an interesting prospect especially since JKR said he's half blood, but did she mean it in reference to him being a warewolf? Do we know if warewolves become half blooded or half breeds when they are bitten?

Prof. V - I really like your logic on the HBP prospects. Although I'm partial to Gryffindore, you make a good case about why the HBP will probably be someone new.

Land of the Shire - I like your idea of also discussing the role of the HBP but I've already written way too much on the subject.

Thanks for reading Smile

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Aeoliano - Jul 20, 2004 8:57 pm (#942 of 2923)

Piero da Lerici
SE JOnes I noticed long research laden posts in the Chamnber / book six thread about adoption laws and inheritance. I am not really sure what they have to do with that topic? I also note that inheritance/grimauld place are already in their own separate threads.

I think the symbolism used by JKR in earlier books and will use in books 6 and 7 have a lot more bearing and are more on topic. But that is my opinion. Agreeing with Andrew Buchanan seems to further exacerbate the deep offense you have done to a person on this forum (and I am not speaking of myself).

You really need to consider the possibility that things you may think are relevant may not seem so to others. Therefore, using a heavy hand as moderator does not seem appropriate.

-- A,

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 20, 2004 9:00 pm (#943 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 9:12 pm
Luke, it is a tradition in so far as it has never happened. The chances of having a DADA teacher we have met before are the same as the chances of having the book be named after a DADA teacher. Neither has happened beofre. So if you expect a DADA teacher we've never met because there has always been a new DADA teacher that we've never met, you should also expect the DADA teacher and the title of the book to be different things because they have alwasy been different things. You cannot arbitrarily say one of these things that has never happened is a tradition and the other is not.

Edit: Aeoliano, I am not a mod. In fact I am a fairly new member, so please don't take this as being a heavy-handed message from the site. It is merely a request from another member. Please take this discussion about the rules of the site to another venue. While it may be deabatable whether your research is on topic (I tend to agree with SE that it needs to be condenced and related to HP), this clearly is not on topic. SE Jones and Pinky have both given you e-mail addresses to ask questions or express concerns. There is also the "questions for the Hosts thread" near the top of the thread list that would be better suited to your complaints. I would appreciate it if you took your compalints to either of these places. I apologize to the hosts if I am over-stepping my bounds and to other members for further delving off-topic.

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Warty Harris - Jul 20, 2004 9:09 pm (#944 of 2923)

Maybe he isn't very noble Potter79. That made me laugh. I do not see any current characters being an actual Prince. Snape seems the mysterious one. He dresses well at least Maybe I am thinking of the movie Snape. It could be a name given to someone in jest. Like Ron gets the nickname for standing up for Harry. I think it is indicating an actual Prince though.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 20, 2004 9:26 pm (#945 of 2923)

Our worst fears are realized....

A super slow motion review of COS movie shows to references to royalty in the smallest of places (and I am not talking Gryffindor's banner). I know the movie is not canon, but I heard rumor JK said there were small clues in the movie.

If the clues in the movie are true.....

THE HBP IS.......LOCKHART.

OH MY GOD. I thought we were done with that windbag.

What are we going to do?

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Hollywand - Jul 20, 2004 9:29 pm (#946 of 2923)

Gryffindor
Gilde Roi Lock Hart: Golden King Lock Heart You got it Contess! :-)

Help, I'm headed to Godric's Hollow with the Headless Horsemen. Have to figure out how to transfigure.....

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 20, 2004 9:37 pm (#947 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Did I miss something? Contess, what are these small clues? Tell me, please. I do not want to have to watch all of CoS frame by frame. That would take forever.

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Gemini12602 - Jul 20, 2004 10:26 pm (#948 of 2923)

I didnt get a chance to read through all the recent replies, but a thought just occured to me. Why did Godric Gryffindor have a sword? He's a wizard and we haven't heard of any instances where a wizard used anything but its wand in battle. Maybe it does go with one post I read about "royal knights" hmmmmmmm

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 20, 2004 11:50 pm (#949 of 2923)

Well, we know they use wands now, but times were different a thousand years ago. The carrying of swords, axes, etc... would have been a fairly common practice, so a wizard could have carried a sword if for no other reason than to just blend in with all the other muggles, who were much more obsessed with burning and torturing wizards to death back in those days.

However, I think the quality of the sword speaks much more to Gryffindor's position in life than its mere presence does. After all, today or a thousand years gone by, rubies the size of eggs are very hard to come by, and it would have cost a very pretty penny to pay for a sword guilded with them, and the sword was, apparently, crafted especially for Godric Gryffindor (it does, after all, have his name on it).

Also, why do we assume that all magical wands have to look like a little stick of wood?

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The giant squid - Jul 20, 2004 11:53 pm (#950 of 2923)


Also, why do we assume that all magical wands have to look like a little stick of wood?

Andrew, that is a very good question, and I'm going to respond to it on the Wands thread.

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Elanor
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Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:57 pm

Elanor - Jul 21, 2004 12:07 am (#951 of 2923)
Thanks Gemini12602 ! That’s exactly my point ! Through all the researchs we’ve done for the Godric Gryffindor’s theory, we could summarize the important facts coming from JKR books, historical and legendary works like this :

1) The original conflict between Slytherin and Gryffindor (and their own supporters of course) is the key of everything : the actual war in the wizarding world is no more no less than another –and maybe the last – battle of this conflict. The HBP could someone who left behind him something that could help Harry’s side.

2) As for Gryffindor’s connection with royalty : Gryffindor’s sword : this rich sword is more than a weapon. Therefore, it may be the emblem of his family, and thus of his social status : in his days, it was the feodal system when only Knights and kings used to wear a sword (metals were far too expensive for the common run of people). The only other reason for Gryffindor having this sword is that it is a powerful magical weapon.

Gryffindor’s crest : golden lion on « gules » which means in heraldic on a red back-ground. If you search for english medieval kings emblems, you will find they are far too similar for being just a coincidence (Richard the lions’heart had the same one with 2 lions on it).

3) It is really possible that Gryffindor is half blood, which could explain why he came from a royal family as well.

4) For the consequences of him being the HBP, the analysis of his name refers to griffins, who, as JKR herself wrote : « « Like sphinxes, griffins are often employed by wizards to guard treasure. Though griffins are fierce, a handful of skilled wizards have been known to befriend one. » Maybe, Gryffindor was one of these skilled wizards, don’t you think so ? Then, it wouldn’t surprise me if we would find out in book 6 that it guarded a treasure which could help Harry... Without forgetting the connection between Griffin’s habilities and Harry’s !

So, I don’t think Godric Gryffindor’s theory being the HBP is « too obvious », I rather think it is the more logical one ! (even if I liked Professor V’s analysis of the other possibilities, and Professor V , you’re right, I’d « never thought I'd feel like doing homework during my summers off from school » too !).

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riddikulus - Jul 21, 2004 12:10 am (#952 of 2923)

Perhaps the sword is a sign of royalty... and Lockart is as good a guess as any. I was just reading OotP and its just so odd how Sirius mothers portrait keeps yelling "filthy half breeds, blood traitors, stains of dishonor" when the only people staying in the house are the Weasleys. Sure, there are people coming in and out... but who is the mother seeing, mostly? Perhaps the Weasleys arent as full blooded as we'd think (or as much as Rons been told). Is curious.

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The giant squid - Jul 21, 2004 12:17 am (#953 of 2923)

I think "half breed" is the strongest curse Mrs. Black can come up with. It's kind of like how some bullies (or other jerks) use derogatory terms on folks they don't apply to, just to get a rise.

I still think the HbP is Godric Gryffindor, though I have no idea why. AS for the argument that Harry always interacts with the subject of the title, I'm amazed that there are no portraits of the founders at Hogwarts...unless they just aren't readily accessible. And we all know Harry never pokes around into places he's not supposed to, right? Wink Just the image of Dumbledore, in a particular bind, going into a hidden room and talking to four really ornate, really old portraits intrigues me.

--Mike

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narisa - Jul 21, 2004 3:32 am (#954 of 2923)

Er, you all must miss my meaning. I didn't mean Godric being HBP is obvious. I said it will be the most common guess JK ever make. I said OoP is obvious, not HBP (last time I said Hagrid is too obvious, people told me they know what is OoP, so I add it up). I apologize for my language mistake.

PS. Aeolianeo, SE Jone-please don't argue more about rules thing. I really feel uncomfortable when I read that, I don't want to take side. Anyway, we are all Harry Potter lovers.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 21, 2004 3:55 am (#955 of 2923)

Just a completely silly thought about who could be the half-blood prince, which I have seen no one talk about. Could it be Argus Filtch?

Someone asked about the title Baron. Basically in the British peerage system it is the lowest level of nobility with a tilte. Barons are Lords. It goes Prince - Duke - Marquess - Earl - Viscount - Baron. So a half-blood prince would not be a baron. I think this rules out the Bloody Baron

The level of baron comes from the 13th century and was the chief tennant of the king. There is actually a level of Baronet where the holder of the title is just "Sir". So Nearly Headless Nick could even have been a baronet.

Unless Prince refers to a painting, I think it refers to a leader. Like people speak of the "king of birds" so people use the term prince in the same way.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 4:42 am (#956 of 2923)

If you look at the scene where Harry is helping Lockhart with his fan mail- look at the clock

Also in the deuling scene - look at the emblem on Lockhart's vest.

I am praying that Lockhart is just a poser.

Thanks

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Elanor - Jul 21, 2004 5:13 am (#957 of 2923)

Oh my ! I've just read your message and then looked at the scenes and you're right it is scary ! I really hope Lockart is only a poser too ! But, as he has so many times took other ones'deeds, he could have done the same with his ancestors, trying to boost a little the family fortunes... I do hope so, at least !

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Professor V - Jul 21, 2004 6:04 am (#958 of 2923)

I agree with Elanor, that the HBP will be someone (maybe something) that will help Harry. I also like the idea, as I mentioned earlier, that the HBP will somehow be linked to Godric Gryffindor, just not him.

Many, many posts ago there was a post that said (sorry if I get this wrong, apologies all around in that case)that the HBP would be a rallying point in the war against Voldemort. I have more to say on this topic, but first I want to bring up something else that I think connects.

Also, in a long ago discussion (reading all of the posts in this section was quite a homework assignment)there was some talk about who the current Gryffindors mentioned in book 6, as a lot of those that we know have left school. I think that there won't be a major infusion of new (to us) students in Gryffindor, I mean students that have always been there but we haven't heard about. I don't think they are needed anymore. Now that we have the DA, we don't need to be so focused on Gryffindor.

Now that I have that out of the way, let me try to tie the two ideas together. I think that there needs to be a rallying point, for the students, the thing that makes them all work together. I think that rallying point is Harry, a variety of people from different houses came together to form the DA, mainly because of Harry. At the end of the OotP, it was students from outside of Gryffindor that protected Harry against Malfroy and crew.

The HBP cannot be the rallying point, but as I've said before, someone or something that will help Harry.

I hope some of that made sense, if not apologies all around.

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Anna L. Black - Jul 21, 2004 8:31 am (#959 of 2923)

I was just reading OotP and its just so odd how Sirius mothers portrait keeps yelling "filthy half breeds, blood traitors, stains of dishonor" when the only people staying in the house are the Weasleys. Sure, there are people coming in and out... but who is the mother seeing, mostly? Perhaps the Weasleys aren't as full blooded as we'd think (or as much as Ron's been told). Is curious. --Riddikulus.

I think Mrs. Black is talking about Lupin, who also stays in the house with Sirius, and who is considered a half-breed.

Professor V., why can't the HBP be the rallying point? If it's some sort of a legend in the wizarding world, then I can see students uniting around a person that fits the legend's description. Not that I necesarily think that this is what going to happen (I'm in the Gryffindor camp), but still...

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haymoni - Jul 21, 2004 8:38 am (#960 of 2923)

Blood traitors = Weasleys

They are pure-bloods but have accepted others so they are traitors.

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riddikulus - Jul 21, 2004 8:44 am (#961 of 2923)

Hmmm interesting. So, do you think Lockhart will come back and help out Harry... with the only incantation he knows (obliviate) and take Voldys memory, so Harry can destroy him?

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Professor V - Jul 21, 2004 9:32 am (#962 of 2923)

Egads, I hope not. I don't think Lockhart would be much help.

I guess my reason that the HBP cannot be the rallying point is that the story is about Harry's battle to defeat Voldemort, his growth into the man/wizard who can pull this off, not the HBP's.

It seems to me, that part of becoming the man to defeat LV (evil) is to become a man who can lead. Leaders have to be able to call upon their "troops" and know that they will respond.

Besides Harry is already bringing them together.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 21, 2004 12:22 pm (#963 of 2923)

I dunno. Lockhart could become useful in Book Six. I'm kind've doubting it, but he could. Maybe his little bout with amnesia did him some good. After all, he was the first person to point out he was completely useless once he had blasted his ego halfway to Azkaban and back.

I also don't have a problem with the HBP being a sort of rallying point. A story of this size, and a battle the size of which the wizarding world is about to experience, could easily have several rallying points on either side. I believe J.K. Rowling said one of the students at Hogwarts was going to change houses in the next book, so that student could be a rallying point insofar as they could help unite the houses at Hogwarts and foster unity.

I do find it fascinating for the purposes of considering the student changing houses that we've been given multiple main characters (who are students) that were "hard fits". Harry, for instance, would have done well in Slytherin, because it would have "helped him on his way to greatness"... and one has to wonder just how it would have done that. Hermione also ended up in Gryffindor, but she said the Sorting Hat thought seriously about putting her in Ravenclaw. Neville said the Sorting Hat had to decide between Gryffindor and Hufflepuff.

Can anyone think of other students with that characteristic?

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Madame Librarian - Jul 21, 2004 1:39 pm (#964 of 2923)

Is this on topic? At any rate, I always think Percy was more Slytherin-ish that Gryffindor. His whiny, supercilious pronouncements, his narrow minded attitude about getting ahead, his talent for deviousness (GoF), and easily switched loyalties (as long as it furthers his climb up the MoM ladder of success). Maybe he's just acting like this for a higher purpose, but till we know for sure, he's one for your list, Andrew (who's the cutie pie in the hat, BTW?).

And, in the beginning books of the series, I might have put good ol' Neville in Hufflepuff maybe, but by the end of PS we get a glimmer of his fine and honorable character through a wonderful combination of loyalty to friends and responsibility in standing up to them, not to mention the bravery of doing that. Still, until OoP, you could argue, he'd be a better Hufflepuff fit.

Uh oh, I really think this is O-T. (I'm off to iron my fingers right now!)

Maybe this should be transferred to the Switching Houses thread.

Ciao. Barb

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 21, 2004 1:54 pm (#965 of 2923)

Sorry. Didn't realize there was a thread for this specific part of book six. I'll hike it over there. =)

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Potions Mistress - Jul 21, 2004 1:55 pm (#966 of 2923)

Politicians and diapers need to be changed for the same reason.--Anon.
I've been wracking my brain (not so good for an overworked college student) trying to figure out who the HBP will be. On JKR.com, she said it was Harry or Voldy, but that doesn't necessarily rule out Tom Riddle. I've also given thought on Neville, but I think he's full-blood--my only supporting "evidence" is both his parents are at St. Mungo's, so I would gather they're both wizards, although nothing is directly said in the book. Let's just hope that the book comes out in a fairly timely fashion (I'm hoping before within a year!) and we can all put the question to rest (while others one pop up...)

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Madame Librarian - Jul 21, 2004 2:02 pm (#967 of 2923)

Gaaa! I just had a terrible thought. What if the identity of the HBP is not resovled in book 6, but just introduced as the mystery character. Kind of like Sirius. Doesn't he send stuff to Harry in CoS, and nobody knows who is doing it? It's not until the end of PoA that he tells Harry (and therefore us). Or am I getting events and books mixed up?

At any rate, JKR could create the mysterious character, a shadowy person/ghost/thing, who influences the plot, but does not reveal himself. Cliffhanger ending for book 6. Oh, nooooooo....

Ciao. Barb

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Star Crossed - Jul 21, 2004 2:06 pm (#968 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think you're getting things messed up, my dear Librarian. Sirius only sent Harry a Firebolt, and that was in PoA.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 2:13 pm (#969 of 2923)

I am thinking Neville. Have you done the anagram on the Droobles Blowing Gum yet?

As for Lockhart, doesn't he have the cure for werewolfism buried in himself somewhere?

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Madame Librarian - Jul 21, 2004 2:14 pm (#970 of 2923)

Thanks, SC. However, it's still possible that JKR will stretch this out. I do not wish it so, just brought up the possibility.

Ciao. Barb

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Potions Mistress - Jul 21, 2004 2:40 pm (#971 of 2923)

Politicians and diapers need to be changed for the same reason.--Anon.
"As for Lockhart, doesn't he have the cure for werewolfism buried in himself somewhere?"--Contess Lillein Asend

I kind of doubt it, though I wouldn't put it past him for taking credit for a cure (if one is ever found and/or he gets over his amnesia.)

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MrsGump - Jul 21, 2004 2:54 pm (#972 of 2923)

KWeldon: I have a grammar question about the hyphen thing.

You got me thinking and looking closer at the grammar rules for these types of things; could you tell me if this is correct?

If Half Blood Prince is a title (which we discussed earlier in this thread) as in "Prince of the Half Bloods", then Half Blood is a noun and does not get a hyphen? But if the term Half Blood refers specifically to the Prince himself, it should have the hyphen?

Maybe we are on the wrong track trying to decide who is a half blood; or at least not eliminating those who are pure bloods?

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 21, 2004 2:57 pm (#973 of 2923)

Yeah, as I remember it Lockhart takes credit for the Homorphus Charm, which is supposedly how he cured a werewolf in his book Wandering With Werewolves. I don't think he actually knows how to perform the charm, though. I mean, name ONE spell... just one, that he actually pulled off correctly in CoS.

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justme - Jul 21, 2004 3:07 pm (#974 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 21, 2004 3:07 pm
The only one I remember him performing correctly was "obliviate", but that backfired on him as well.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 21, 2004 3:10 pm (#975 of 2923)

So basically, he didn't do that one right, either, because he was stupid enough to try to perform the spell with a broken wand.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 21, 2004 3:25 pm (#976 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
But when Lockhart tells Harry how "hard" he had to work for his books, he says he had to get the witch or wizard who did all those things to tell him exactly how he did them (then he obliviates them). So he might not be able to do it himself, but he can explain it to someone else. I wouldn't trust even a fully functional Lockhart to fix Lupin. But it is possible he can provide details to DD about what the witch or wizard did do. Maybe from those details, DD could perform the charm. Lockhart was the only one who knew those details now because he obliviated the original witch or wizard. Although he obliviated himself as well. I have a feeling his books, although used as textbooks and household how-to guides, were more concerned about making Lockhart seem brave and strong than with giving details on how to perform the magic within. So the needed details would not be in the books either. That means eithe Lockhart or the origninal witch or wizard needs their memory back. I don't think it was a standard charm, otherwise DD would have already done it for Lupin.

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KWeldon - Jul 21, 2004 4:16 pm (#977 of 2923)

Mrs. Gump,

You state, "If Half Blood Prince is a title (which we discussed earlier in this thread) as in "Prince of the Half Bloods", then Half Blood is a noun and does not get a hyphen? But if the term Half Blood refers specifically to the Prince himself, it should have the hyphen?"

To clarify, I didn't mean that the title is referring to "Prince of the Half Bloods." I meant that the title is referring to a Blood Prince (vampire), but only half of one (whatever JKR intends that to mean, whether it's lineage or size, for example).

Now, granted this rule isn't applied as much as it used to be, but if a term comprising two words is used as an adjective, then it should be hyphenated. Thus, if a prince has only one parent that's a wizard, he is a half-blood prince. So, yes, if the term Half Blood refers specifically to the Prince himself, it should have the hyphen.

When two words are used together as a noun, though, then they may or may not have a hyphen; there are no set rules, unfortunately. So, if JKR had indeed entitled it "Prince of the Half-Bloods," it may or may not have a hyphen.

I apologize if I am confusing anyone or if the grammar discussion is off-topic, but I really am focusing on it to make my point, albeit not very well. Although I haven't re-read all of the books to satisfy my curiosity or prove my point, I've skimmed them and found examples of JKR using "pure-blood" and "half-blood" as adjectives, but not the respective terms without hyphens. For what it's worth.

KWeldon

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Chemyst - Jul 21, 2004 4:51 pm (#978 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I've skimmed them and found examples of JKR using "pure-blood" and "half-blood" as adjectives, but not the respective terms without hyphens. For what it's worth. - KWeldon Hm... I'm now wondering if, when her book gets to the editors, they may ask her to add a hyphen?

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MrsGump - Jul 21, 2004 5:00 pm (#979 of 2923)

KWeldon write: "To clarify, I didn't mean that the title is referring to "Prince of the Half Bloods." I meant that the title is referring to a Blood Prince (vampire), but only half of one (whatever JKR intends that to mean, whether it's lineage or size, for example). "

I know that was your meaning, I wasn't very clear in my post. Earlier in the thread there was some discussion as to whether HBP meant a prince who is a half blood, or the prince of the half bloods. I didn't realize there was a grammar rule that might point to one or the other.

When I said "If Half Blood Prince is a title...", I didn't mean the title of the book, but the title of the person instead of a description of the person.

I know you are hoping for a vampire, but I really don't think they are going to be important (sorry), so I will assume that the grammar point to the "Prince of the Half Blood" meaning, which only opens up the HBP to be anyone: half-blooded, pure-blooded, half breed, non-human...

And thank you for clarifying the grammar rules, I think it's on topic because it pertains specifically to the title which is the subject of this thread.

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KWeldon - Jul 21, 2004 5:32 pm (#980 of 2923)

Mrs. Gump,

To be honest, I'd be surprised if JKR singled out one kind of half-breed (vampire) over another, certainly as the subject of the next-to-the-last book, so you're probably right. However, I still can't help but wonder if there is some significance there.

KWeldon

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Madame Librarian - Jul 21, 2004 7:06 pm (#981 of 2923)

I wonder if the use of the hyphenated "half-blood" term is consistent throughout the five books. Has anyone checked (now, that's a bit of a chore)?

I know that in the scene in Hagrid's hut where Ron explains to Harry why calling Hermione a mudblood (hmmm...no hyphen there) was such a horrible thing, the hyphen is used for the terms half-blood and pure-blood (CoS, chapter 7).

I know the hyphen comes and goes in the Lexicon, interviews, reviews, and tons of other places, but if it's always the same in the books--with the hyphen--then I think the title without the hyphen is a big clue.

Unless the release of the new title (that picture on JKR's website) is just an early, early, unedited rendition and the final form with be hyphenated once Jo reads this chunk of the Forum and exclaims, "Well, blimey! I left out the bloomin' hyphen. Honey, give me the phone, I've got to ring up Bloomsbury and Scholastic."

Ciao. Barb

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KWeldon - Jul 21, 2004 7:24 pm (#982 of 2923)

Barb,

I did the same thing you did--checked the Hagrid hut scene when Ron is puking slugs, plus some other obvious ones. I did notice that Mudblood is given a proper name, whereas the others are not, although other horrible Muggle slurs are treated similarly...

Surely the absence of a hyphen isn't an oversight by her? I mean, it's such a big deal to her, her publishers, and her millions of fans, wouldn't you think she'd double check it, at least?

I would love to hear a conversation between her and Lynne Truss about it, though! Wink

KWeldon

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Madame Librarian - Jul 21, 2004 7:36 pm (#983 of 2923)

KWeldon, I agree! What a lively discussion that would be. I also was really just kidding about the missing hyphen being a boo-boo. JKR as quite consciously did not use one this time, IMO. There are so many possible explanations, some really whacky, some solidly based in the elegant grammatical constructions of the English language. However, I am the first to admit that the hyphen can be quite problematic. Its usage and "rules" vary in different countries, and during various periods in history. The Victorians, both in England and the U.S., were hyphen-obssessed. They loved the little critters and splattered them all over.

When I am at work tomorrow, if I have time, I will see if a copy of Truss's book is on shelf and check her commentary on the hyphen. I'll look at the hyphen-related information in Elements of Style and the other grammar books (Princeton Review, NY Times stylebook, etc.).

Ciao. Barb

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Ozymandias - Jul 21, 2004 8:01 pm (#984 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
TheChicago Manual of Style, 15th edition, has a lot to say about hyphens.

1) Compound forms made up of an adjective and a noun (like half blood) are hyphenated when appearing before a noun but are open after a noun. So it should be "Half-Blood Prince" or "the Prince was Half Blood."

2)Also,the rule for compounds that include "half" is as follows:

adjective forms are hyphenated (half-asleep)
noun forms are open (half hour) So again, since it's an adjective form, "Half-Blood Prince" should be hyphenated.

3)In names of ethnic groups, such as African-American, the hyphen is optional. Would half-blood fall under this rule?

4)And finally, compounds tend to evolve from open (half blood) to hyphenated (half-blood) to closed (halfblood). Perhaps this is an indication that the Half Blood Prince is from an era of the past *coughGodricGryffindorcough*, and JKR has reflected this evolution in the spelling.

So, options one and two would point to an error, three to simple preference, and four to a big ol' clue. I don't know what to think right now. Anyone have more information?

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The giant squid - Jul 21, 2004 8:28 pm (#985 of 2923)

Someone made mention of whether the HBP will help Harry or not. I thought back and considered how the title objects related to Harry:

SS/PS-- positive. The Sorceror's Stone is generally used for good things, and as it is the foil for LV, it defaults to good (the enemy of my enemy & all that).

CoS-- negative. The secret chamber of Slytherin himself, home of a basilisk, base of operations for Tom both originally & in diary form. Very bad.

PoA-- positive. C'mon, it's Sirius.

GoF-- negative. Okay, this is a bit of a stretch, but it's because of the Goblet that Cedric ends up dead and Voldie returns to physical form.

OotP-- positive. Dumbledore's Order serves to combat LV and all he stands for. They are literally the good guys.

Following this pattern, it would appear that the Half Blood Prince will not be working in Harry's best interests. So what, you may ask? Well, if we know that the HBP isn't on Harry's side, that would rule out Hagrid, Dean, Neville, Godric Gryffindor, etc.

All right, there it is, half baked but served nonetheless. Feel free to start picking it apart. Smile

--Mike

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Madame Librarian - Jul 21, 2004 8:30 pm (#986 of 2923)

Thanks, Ozymandias, nice bit of edification. I should think that Truss's book, Eats, Shoots and Leaves, would offer insight into UK usage. It's also possible that the library will have a stylebook from a British publication. Maybe there's some online (hmmm...should that be on-line?) resources, too.

I do like the suggestion of the hyphen being optional as it is for the designation African American, half blood being a similar desciptor. But shouldn't it be capitalized? (Sigh.) We seem to solve one problem, only to raise another.

I wonder if JKR ever imagined that a fairly large group on people would be agonizing so much over a hyphen all because of her books. I hope she's getting a kick out of it.

Ciao. Barb

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Chemyst - Jul 21, 2004 8:37 pm (#987 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Strunk & White, in The Elements of Style, fourth edition, aren't much help! They say, "Common sense will aid you in the decision!!!"

"When two or more words are combined to form a compound adjective, a hyphen is usually required.
'He belonged to the leisure class and enjoyed leisure-class pursuits.'
Do not use a hyphen between words that can be better written as one word: water-fowl, waterfowl.
Common sense will aid you in the decision, but a dictionary is more reliable. The steady evolution of language seems to favor union: two words eventually become one after a period of hyphenation."
They then list some examples: bed chamber, bed-chamber, bedchamber; tell a little story about a newspaper merger resulting in The Chattanooga News-Free Press; and finish up with a Hogwartian statement: "Obviously we ask too much of a hyphen when we ask it to cast its spell over words it does not adjoin."

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Land of the Shire - Jul 21, 2004 10:00 pm (#988 of 2923)

Contess Lillein Asend writes: THE HBP IS.......LOCKHART.

I distinctly remember reading from JKR (perhaps in an online chat) sometime after GoF was released that we would not be seeing any more of Lockhart. I remember her saying that he would be spending the remainder of the books at St. Mungo's recuperating. You can imagine my surprise when we saw him again in OotP, but I still think he was there for much-needed comic relief and not for any cosmic significance. I highly doubt that Lockhart will be a major player in the next two volumes.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 21, 2004 10:22 pm (#989 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Giant Squid- I disagree with your classifications of the title objects. In relation to harry and Harry's goals for the year, almost all the objects are neutral. Cases can be made for the order and PoA being positive, but I stand by neutral.

SS- Harry had no use for it and it was not a threat to him. The threat was whoever was going to get the stone. The Stone as an inadimate object can only be used by another. It can be used for good (keeping Nicolas Flamel alive) or ill (resurrecting Voldemort).

CoS- The chamber is just a place, inanimate, similar to the SS. The real enemies were the Basilisk and Tom Riddle from the diary. Once again, how it acts is dependent on how it is used. Once the Basilisk was defeated, it could be cleaned up and be a wonderful place for DD to keep all his socks or whatever is important enough for DD to hide.

PoA- You could say that since Sirius was Harry's godfather and cared for him, he was positive. But during the course of PoA, Sirius was not concerned with harry at all (except a wish to get a look at him). Sirius main concern was killing Wormtail. So during PoA, he was not someone trying to help or hurt Harry.

GoF- Again a neutral object. It was tricked into picking Harry. IT did not wish him ill will. It was only doing its job. The real threat was from Crouch Jr, who tricked the GoG, and from Voldemort.

OotP- Again, you may think this was good. but what help did the order really give harry. DD as the head of the order did his best to stay away from Harry. The rest of the order did its best to keep Harry from getting involved. So again, the order is friendly with Harry, but it did not help him with his struggles against Umbridge. The problem I have with this is that they saved Harry at the end. However, I look at that as the people who have grown to care for Harry and not official order business.

So to keep with tradition, the HBP should be something not out to kill harry or out to actively help him throughout the year. It could be friendly, but not necessarily a help. Then again, maybe the members of the Order helping Harry in Book 5 show this pattern is breaking down and we will see a helpful HBP. Who knows?

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Guercio - Jul 22, 2004 2:28 am (#990 of 2923)

I think we should consider why the half blood prince has not been referred to as such until now. The most obvious reason for this is that he has only just been crowned/dubbed/whatever.

So it probably isn't Hagrid, unless the giants wipe themselves out and he becomes Gurg by default, being the only one left (unlikely).

It could still be Godric, as this story arc is in the past.

It could be someone who inherits the title from Sirius (hence my previous slightly tongue-in-cheek post on a possible child of Sirius).

But it's probably someone we haven't met yet. Bah!

PS: A note on punctuation for sticklers!

On the UK cover of Lynne Truss's Eats, Shoots and Leaves is a subtitle: "the Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation!" or some such. I'm not sure if this is reflected on international covers. The point is that if Lynne obeys her own rules then this should be "the Zero-Tolerance approach" as "Zero tolerance" is being used to adjectivise (is this a word?!) "approach".

If Lynne can get it wrong on the cover of a book on punctuation, I think we'll have to admit that Half Blood and Half-Blood are probably interchangeable. Oh well!

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 22, 2004 2:41 am (#991 of 2923)

On the issue of the Weasley's being half-blood, doesn't Sirius mention being related to both Molly and Arthur but tells Harry not to look for them. This is not because of them being anything but pure-blood but because of Arthur's love for Muggles. So this would probably rule out the Weasleys as half-bloods, with the possible exception of the cousin who is an accountant.

Following the arguements I'm down to either a person or a portrait. Possibly that of an old head teacher.

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The giant squid - Jul 22, 2004 3:23 am (#992 of 2923)

Wandless Wizard--thanks. I did ask folks to pick it apart, after all. Smile

On further reflection I think your analysis is closer to the mark than mine. That's what I get for typing something out before really mulling it over.

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MrsGump - Jul 22, 2004 5:59 am (#993 of 2923)

Madam Librarian said: "I do like the suggestion of the hyphen being optional as it is for the designation African American, half blood being a similar desciptor. But shouldn't it be capitalized? (Sigh.) We seem to solve one problem, only to raise another"

But in the title Half Blood is capitalized. I know that it would be capitalized even if it was half-blood (Half-Blood), but how would you know if it was upper or lower case in the first place?

and Guercio said: "On the UK cover of Lynne Truss's Eats, Shoots and Leaves is a subtitle: "the Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation!" or some such. I'm not sure if this is reflected on international covers. The point is that if Lynne obeys her own rules then this should be "the Zero-Tolerance approach" as "Zero tolerance" is being used to adjectivise (is this a word?!) "approach". "

One of my questions is if the rules are different when you're writing a title? I tried to search on-line and couldn't find an answer. There is a lot of talk about capitals, and different style houses using different rules, but I didn't see anything about punctuation in titles. Is it common to take it out?

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KWeldon - Jul 22, 2004 6:42 am (#994 of 2923)

I'd be surprised if punctuation for titles is different for any other written text, but I don't recall seeing it one way or the other.

I think the strongest case against the absence of the hyphen having any meaning is the Spanish title referring to "mestizo". Oh well.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 22, 2004 9:53 am (#995 of 2923)

Mrs. Gump, yes, of course, being in a title "Half Blood" would be capitalized regardless, but I was referring to the text usages that are not capitalized. And, hmmmm, your point about "zero tolerance" is a good one. My first reaction is that the phrase has not yet quite evolved into common enough usage for the hyphenated form (2nd stage) and still appears in the open form (two separate words). It would be my inclination to use the hyphen, however. Ms. Truss, are you there? Do you like HP? Are you a Forum member (wouldn't that be a hoot)? Can you answer us about the missing hyphen?

I have just finished a survey of various style books and a number of grammar disquisitions ala Eats, Shoots and Leaves (though none quite as funny), and later today I'll post a review and sum up with two suggestions of why the title usage is not hyphenated that might be keys to solving this enigma.

More later, folks....

Ciao. Barb

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Professor V - Jul 22, 2004 10:24 am (#996 of 2923)

Mike, the Giant Squid, and the Wandless Wizard, I like your analysis of the different objects mentioned in the titles of the books. They both definitely make a girl think. Unfortunately all that thinking may just have fried all my circuits, causing massive explosions. Beware of accumulating smoke and flying debris.

Sorry about the flight of fancy.

Seriously, I have re-evaluated my stance on the HBP. It seems to me that the HBP will be neutral, neither for nor against Harry. It has been suggested, both recently and in the past, that the HBP will be an object of some kind, maybe even a painting. This theory is growing on me as well (that is unless the aforementioned smoke doesn't kill it).

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KWeldon - Jul 22, 2004 7:26 pm (#997 of 2923)

Anxiously awaiting, Barb!!

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Hogs Head - Jul 22, 2004 8:27 pm (#998 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
At this point, I'm not sure we can even deduce whether the Half Blood Prince is a "good guy" or a "bad guy," much less who the HBP is supposed to be or what role he (or she) is supposed to play. Maybe the HBP is an "ambivalent guy." Who knows?

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Madame Librarian - Jul 22, 2004 8:47 pm (#999 of 2923)

Whew! What a busy afternoon. Never had a chance to post my suggestions on the hyphen thing. OK, now I can do it. Bear with me folks, I'll try not to be long-winded.

For starters, an apt quote found in The New York Public Library Writer's Guide to Style and Usage: "If you take hyphens seriously, you will surely go mad." (John Benbow, Manuscript and Proof, c1937.) Watch out St. Mungo's, here we come.

In all the various sources I checked, including The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage, The Elements of Style by Strunk and White and a quick-reference guide called ActionGrammar: Fast, No-Hassle Answers on Everyday Usage and Punctuation by Joanne Feirerman, the rules governing hyphenation were explained pretty consistently. A few books offered more in-depth guidance and that's when two points that caught my attention.

The NY Times manual says that hyphens are not used in titles such as: commander in chief, director general, editor in chief, secretary general. Do use the hyphen when titles reflect two positions combined, as in secretary-treasurer. So if JKR is using the term Half Blood Prince as a title (of a person, not the book title) rather than as an adjective (Half Blood) modifiying a noun (Prince), no hyphen would be necessary regardless of her previous usage in the books. That seems a simple enough explanation. Kind of disappointing, but, hey, makes sense.

The second possibility arises out of Ozymandias's earlier comments on word evolution from The Chicago Manual of Style. He explained nicely how as usage grows a compound word will begin as two separate elements (open), shift to a hyphenated form, then further develop as a single word (closed). In The Elements of Style a few examples of this are given:
bell boy-->bell-boy-->bellboy
wild life-->wild-life-->wildlife

If we apply this logic to the title of book 6, maybe we have the older (ancient?) usage of half blood. This actually could support the Godric Gryffindor idea--he lived ages ago. What if the concept of a person who was half muggle/half wizard was new or radical (maybe this was a time of the first openly admitted marriages between muggles and wizards)? Maybe Gryffindor was a half blood who made it to the top so to speak, and that was the new, new thing (perhpas half bloods before this time were kept in the closet). The term would be novel, just starting to gain currency, and therefore not yet have its hyphenated form.

When we get to the mid-90s, the time in which the books are set, the term has evolved to the 2nd stage. Since there is still a somewhat iffy status assigned to half-bloods, and the wizarding society is still stuck with some unfortunate, racist attitudes, even unconscious ones, the population is not yet comfortable enough with these terms to use them broadly and openly, without pause. They are not ready to shift to the 3rd and final stage, the closed form: halfblood.

So the word evolution theory supports the idea that Godric Gryffindor or at least someone from an earlier time might be the Half Blood Prince, and it's the official title of this person.

Is this all too too picky, pedantic and fussy? Are we going overboard over a little splat of black type on a page? Maybe. But I can't help but think of all the times JKR has, well, messed up on dates, ages of characters, years when such and such happened, things dealing with figures and computation, and has admitted that she's terrible at math, just not a numbers person. I don't think she'd say the same about herself when it comes to words, word usage, language construction and related issues. She is at her best when crafing the words and phrases that not only create a marvelous story, but at designing the word puzzles, double entendres, clever names, layered meanings and subtle clues. She would take the time to research the hyphen issue, I believe, and use it to best advantage even if only a few readers would notice.

Sorry for the lengthy theme paper here ("The Evolving Use of Word Hyphenation in Rowling's Septology" or some such title). Even if I'm way off here (we may never really find out, your know), I certainly learned an awful lot about hyphens.

Ciao. Barb

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KWeldon - Jul 22, 2004 9:14 pm (#1000 of 2923)

Barb,

Thank you so much for taking the time to research the issue and to put your findings into words.

So let me see if I get this straight. These are the possibilities:

Half Blood Prince (no hyphen) may refer to an ancient half-blood prince, such as Godric Gryffindor.

Half-Blood Prince (hyphen) may have referred to a modern day half-blood prince and this issue would never have come up.

Half Blood Prince (no hyphen) may refer to a blood prince, since the supposed adjective comprised of half and blood are not hyphenated and, therefore, must not be describing the prince.

Yours is a very plausible explanation of why there wouldn't be a hyphen. I've been thinking, however, that the fact that the Spanish translation is mestizo (mixed blood) still doesn't wholly support that the title refers to a half-blood prince, because with my theory of the title referring to a blood prince, the half could still (and obviously) be concerning mixed lineage.

Still, I've begun to think that this hyphen business is much ado about nothing. One caveat, however, is that British rules are different. Strunk and White is American, right? And the NY Times obviously is. I didn't find the British Truss book helpful on this issue.

By the way, by your theory is Mudblood never hyphenated by JKR becuase the slur has been around forever?

For what it's worth, my impression of Lynne Truss' book was that newspapers are the most schizophrenic abusers of punctuation whims. I almost always see it as editor-in-chief and commander-in-chief, for example. I think punctuation rules for a newspaper are governed largely by the editor him/herself.

Again, thanks, KWeldon

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Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

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HP6: the Half Blood Prince (28 Jun 04 - 14 Mar 05) Empty HP6: the Half Blood Prince (Jun 04-Mar 05) (Post 1001 to 1050)

Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:59 pm

Verschwinden Sie - Jul 22, 2004 9:32 pm (#1001 of 2923)
I dunno... I don't think the title is referring to a vampire for one reason. The whole plot of the series centers around purity of blood, and veering off into vampire land would be an unnecessary, and I'd bet to a great extent unwanted, digression from the plot. I mean, not that it wouldn't be cool and all to see on its own, but how many people really want to read "Harry Meets Dracula", and where would it follow the series? It just seems logical that the title would be referring to a half-blood, and not a half "blood".

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Madame Librarian - Jul 22, 2004 9:46 pm (#1002 of 2923)

(Wow. I just noticed that my previous post was #1000. Woo-hoo! (Or should I say, woo hoo?)

KWeldon, I believe you're re-cap is good, but I couldn't follow the last bit about the Spanish translation. What would a Blood Prince be? Something to do with vampires?

Regarding the possible differences in British "rules"--I am still hoping to find a style manual that will cover this. Of course, as soon as I can find something pertinent, I'll report.

As far as the term Mudblood goes, I'm not sure I can articulate this well, but it's really not a term in the same class as pure-blood, half-blood and muggle-born. Those are the polite, accepted terms used fairly openly (even if they might make some uncomfortable) in wizarding society. Mudblood is a horrid, nasty term used only as a perjorative. It's akin to terms we can't even use in acronym form on the Forum (and that's quite OK with me). Since it clearly is a word that's beyond the pale of most speakers, and a slang term with no opposite form (i.e., as half-blood is to pure-blood; Mudblood is to...what?), it probably sprung (sprang?) into an underground vocabulary as a single word without much life as a written word. Yes, it is a compound term, but its rhyming character and the fact that mud is not often a word paired with another as a compound, in fact, it's a noun, not an adjective, drove it to being in closed form from the get-go. Sheesh! I sound truly whacko there, don't I. Oh, well, I'm having a good time.

Forgive me, KWeldon. I'm so tired that I'm babbling. I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow, upon re-reading all this, I'll wonder, "What was I thinking? All this talk-talk-talk about a hyphen."

Ciao. Barb

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KWeldon - Jul 22, 2004 9:49 pm (#1003 of 2923)

Andrew,

"It just seems logical that the title would be referring to a half-blood, and not a half "blood"

So, there are two analogous blood lineages to consider. There is mixed wizard/non-wizard blood (like Harry), and then there is mixed human/non-human blood (like Hagrid and Firenze). Both types are ostracized by others and JKR obviously intends on focusing on intolerance of one, but likely both. Couldn't the second type, a mixed human/non-human individual, illustrate the prejudices just as easily? You'd have to begin somewhere, so why not a vampire? I suppose it would be easier to focus on characters already known, though.

I'm sure you're right, Andrew, but like I've said before, I was just bothered by the apparent punctuation or lack thereof from a writer who so carefully chooses her words.

KWeldon

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 22, 2004 9:52 pm (#1004 of 2923)

Firenze isn't a half-blood. Centaurs are their own breed of creature, and aren't ostracized by humans so much as they ostracize humans themselves. As far as I know, the only half-bloods in the series so far, where the half-blood refers to someone who's half human and half something else are Hagrid, Madame Maxime, Professor Lupin, and that poor guy who shared a hospital room with Arthur Weasley.

Of course, this all kind've goes back to the same core issue in the plot (racial tension and "ethnic purity"), so I can't imagine it being a vampire for another reason... so far all the half-bloods we've met that were half human and half something else have been very positive people since, it seems, J.K. Rowling is coming out pretty unilaterally against purist ideals in her books... and it would be EXTREMELY tough to do that with a vampire.

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KWeldon - Jul 22, 2004 9:56 pm (#1005 of 2923)

Barb,

You say, "I couldn't follow the last bit about the Spanish translation. What would a Blood Prince be? Something to do with vampires?"

An earlier post from someone who had seen the title in Spanish said it was translated with the term "mestizo" which means "of mixed blood." I had thought that this was evidence that the absence of the hyphen meant nothing, but now I'm not so sure.

When I first posted my theory, I quoted that there is a known Romanian prince named Vlad Something-or-Other (notice the hyphens!!!)called the Blood Prince, and that, yes, the title was referring to a vampire. He would just happen to also be of mixed blood (and thus the inclusion of the word "half"), and JKR would brilliantly have misled us/told us more than we realized, as she so often does.

KWeldon

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KWeldon - Jul 22, 2004 9:57 pm (#1006 of 2923)

Andrew,

Yes, you are right about Firenze, sorry, although why would Lupin be considered this kind of half-blood? He was bitten by a werewolf as a kid, not the progeny of a human and a werewolf, right?

KWeldon

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 22, 2004 9:57 pm (#1007 of 2923)

Vlad Tsepes was the Romanian Prince's name... and yes, Lupin was bitten by a werewolf, but if you read, J.K. Rowling classifies werewolves as "half-humans", or "half-breeds".

Remember in OotP that Umbridge passed a bit of anti-werewolf legislation that made it difficult for Lupin to find work, and when it was asked why she did so the reason was because she hated half-breeds. I don't have the quote right on hand, but I'll look for it. If anyone else knows it, please feel free to post it. =)

Also, pp. x-xiii of "Fantasic Beasts and Where to Find Them" notes that Werewolves have a tenuous status, technically being defined as a magical "being", while having offices in the Ministry of Magic that, to this day, still deal with them as "beasts". Therefore, human or not, they can be said to at best be considered half-breeds by the wizarding world at large.

And I think the logic behind considering them not fully human probably stems from the fact that for one week out of the month, they transform into a very un-human, slavering, lupine killing machine...

which is something the rest of us "pure" humans just don't do, thank you VERY much!

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 22, 2004 10:00 pm (#1008 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Lupin isn't even really a half-breed either. He had two human parents. At some point he was biten by a wolf and that transfered a disease to him. It is like an animagus. Just because they can turn into an animal, does not mean they are that animal or even partly that animal. Animagi are humans with an ability. Werewolves are humans who have the same ability only cannot control it or themselves in animal form. So the only half-breeds we know are Madam Maxime and Hagrid. Vampirism can be looked at the same way, actually, as a disease that effects humans.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 22, 2004 10:25 pm (#1009 of 2923)

Ah! I found my quote!

Order of the Phoenix, American Hardback Edition, pp. 302-303:

"Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters," said Sirius with a wry smile. "I know she's a nasty piece of work, though-- you should hear Remus talk about her."

"Does Lupin know her?" asked Harry quickly, remembering Umbridge's comments about dangerous half-breeds during her first lesson.

"No," said Sirius, "but she drafted a bit of anti-werewolf legislation two years ago that makes it almost impossible for him to get a job."

Harry remembered how much shabbier Lupin looked these days and his dislike of Umbridge deepened even further.

"What's she got against werewolves?" said Hermione angrily.

"Scared of them, I expect," said Sirius, smiling at her indignation. "Apparently she loathes part-humans; she campaigned to have merpeople rounded up and tagged last year too. Imagine wasting time and energy persecuting merpeople when there are little toerags like Kreacher on the loose--"

So there you are... The wizarding world apparently considers Werewolves part-humans and/or half-breeds.

I've gotta shuffle for another quote on vampires, but I'm pretty sure in GoF Percy says something about vampires specifically being referred to as "non-wizard half-humans".

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 22, 2004 10:37 pm (#1010 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 22, 2004 10:39 pm
Umbridge also said the centaurs were half-breeds, but you yourself said they were not. She lumps them all into the same category. Anything that resembles a human but isn't quite. This includes beasts that resemble humans and humans that resemble beasts. Sirius lumped them together as well because he was discussing her viewpoint. He could have said "Apparently she loathes everything she considers part-human." But the "everything she considers" is just extra verbage as it is already implied. I don't think we should take Umbridge's view as representitive of the whole WW. And even if we did, the whole WW could still be wrong. Lupin has no animal ancestors. All his ancestors, as far as we know, are human. We know he got his werewolfism (is that a word?) from a bite not from his parentage, so he is not a half-breed.

Edit: Vampires could be half-humans. We do not know the mythology behind them in the Potterverse. If humans can be turned through a bite though, I stick with disease regardless of what Percy or Umbridge says.

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 22, 2004 10:54 pm (#1011 of 2923)

It has long been said that what is true is not what's important... it's what you THINK is true. No, technically Lupin doesn't have any non-human blood in his ancestry. He was bitten by a werewolf and so is one because that's how lycanthropy (the technical term for being "werewolfy"... lycanthrope, or "loupe garrou", being the technical term for werewolf, for those who wondered) is passed on.

However, as I cited from "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them", the wizarding world THINKS they're half-breeds, and so they are. This is also supported by the fact they are given a name distinct from human beings, whereas human beings merely suffering from a disease are pretty much always referred to as either the victim or sufferer of a disease, the survivor of a disease, or a person with that disease. Werewolves aren't referred to as "a person with a bad case of lycanthropy". They're given a distinct title to separate them in toto from human beings... so I'm going to say that regardless of what is true, it's what everyone in the Potterverse thinks is true that counts... and that's got werewolves pretty firmly in the half-breed category.

By the way, I had a terrible thought for you KWeldon... what if you're absolutely right and a half blood prince is exactly what J.K. Rowling meant and we end up with, say, the left half of a blood sucking monster?

"Harry Potter and the Horribly Splinched Vampire"...

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Redneck7 CO - Jul 22, 2004 11:30 pm (#1012 of 2923)

I still believe there is a possibility that the term HalfBlood refers not to the muggle blood, wizard blood relationship, but that of half noble blood and half non-noble blood.

I would also like to add that within the pure-blood wizard community there seems to be certain wizards i.e., the Malfoy's, that believe even within the pure-bloods there is a dichotomy of blood, in that their blood is "better", or more "noble", than than the Weasleys. Basically, I think there are pure-bloods that believe that their lineage (blood) is better, or more noble, than that of other pure-blood wizards.

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Guercio - Jul 23, 2004 2:47 am (#1013 of 2923)

Good points about what/what isn't a "part-human". Doesn't Hermione indicate that centaurs are also considered part humans (er, I mean part-humans... Aaaarg!) when she discusses how Umbridge was furious at the appointment of Firenze in OotP? Or is the general consensus that this is just a reflection of Umbridge's preferences?

Barb, impressive hyphen research! It is sad to think that in a few years' time the usage will probably have changed again... (note the important apostrophe on "years"! Hee hee, I've never felt that I had to be so careful about my punctuation!)

Also that is a good points on the differences between Mudblood and Half-blood. I wonder if the Weird Sisters will be ousted from the top of the Wizarding charts by a new band called Mudbloodz wit' attitude. That would be nice. Maybe that is what Hermione will do for a career...

Anyway, the point on Half Blood being a possible root of the modern Half-Blood (amongst other things) does lead me into the "Godric is the HBP" camp. But I'm sure that will change a million times before the release date. Hmmmm...

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Mare - Jul 23, 2004 2:55 am (#1014 of 2923)

Okay, I just came about the weirdest idea I had in a long time.
I believe the HBP to be an unknown, but for the sake of discussion: What about Karkaroff?
I don't have the books here, but if I have the time, I'll see what I can find on him.

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Guercio - Jul 23, 2004 3:33 am (#1015 of 2923)

Ooh, Karkaroff! Do you think he is an actual prince? There's certainly something a bit odd about him. I could never reconcile which out of Snape, Karkaroff, etc was the "one too scared to come back", "one who has left my service forever", etc. (Sorry, no exact quotes as I have no GoF with me.) In fact, I'm sure that there is a thread somewhere devoted entirely to this... I will go and search!

No, no, wait! How about Prince Stan Shunpike!

Or Kingsley Shacklebolt. Or Zacharias Smith. I don't think anyone has suggested them, and they seem as likely as some others that people have suggested. (cf. Dobby...)

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Mare - Jul 23, 2004 3:42 am (#1016 of 2923)

Or Peter Pettigrew. His role should really be growing, with the lifedebt and all. Also I predict some unsolved issues between him and Remus and between Peter and Harry...
The only problem is I seem to remember him being a pureblood like James and Sirius. But then again, if Remus is a halfbreedbecause of being a wolf two days a month, what does twelve years as a rat make you?

Also there is a small problem with Peter and Karkaroff not being in book 2. So back to basics (and book 2)

Edit 2: allthough Scabbers is in book 2.

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The giant squid - Jul 23, 2004 4:53 am (#1017 of 2923)


"Harry Potter and the Horribly Splinched Vampire"

Ha! Thanks, Andrew, for that chuckle. It's late, and I always like to ahve a happy thought to fall asleep on...

Professor V, don't worry about the mind-fry. There's been quite a bit of smoke pouring from my ears since I found the Forum myself. Smile

Guercio, I don't know if there's a thread specifically for it, but the question of Snape v. Karkaroff for "too cowardly to return" has been getting some work over on the Snape thread.

--Mike

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Guercio - Jul 23, 2004 5:21 am (#1018 of 2923)

Marè: Or Peter Pettigrew?

Maybe Scabbers was a victim of the Basilisk in an early edit of CoS but it was re-written...? In fact, don't snakes like to eat rats?! I have no idea where this is going...

... Maybe Karkaroff is the giant squid. We know that the Durmstrang boat surfaces in the lake...

Back to work!

Edit: thanks for the link, Mike. I'm wading through it!

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Madame Librarian - Jul 23, 2004 6:04 am (#1019 of 2923)

KWeldon, just to help add to our store of relatively useless information ("Jeopardy, here we come!"), that Vlad person you were referring to was also known in English as Vlad the Impaler (apparently he was quite willing to impale those who annoyed him, gruesome, no?). He is supposedly the source of the modern vampire legends. Catchy name, isn't it? He could have a cute sign-off--"This is V. the I. signing off for those unwholesome daylight hours. Catch ya later, when the sun goes down. Anybody seen my stake? Er...I mean steak."

Ciao. Barb

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KWeldon - Jul 23, 2004 6:50 am (#1020 of 2923)

Barb,

Thanks for the info on Vlad the Impaler--what a monster. I'm still chuckling over "HP and the Horribly Splinched Vampire".

I've been meaning to see if I can reconcile this theory with the other theory on the seven trials in PS/SS referring to the books, but I haven't had time to refresh my memory on what the trials say about Book 6.

KWeldon

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Hogs Head - Jul 23, 2004 7:09 am (#1021 of 2923)

Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Is it anal-retentive or anal retentive? Is it hyphenated?

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Padfoot - Jul 23, 2004 10:57 am (#1022 of 2923)

LOL.

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KWeldon - Jul 23, 2004 11:00 am (#1023 of 2923)

Hogs Head,

Both, in my case. Thanks for making me choke on my sandwich--very funny! Smile

KWeldon

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Norbert not a common welsh green - Jul 23, 2004 2:22 pm (#1024 of 2923)

Lupin is half blood

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Madame Librarian - Jul 23, 2004 3:12 pm (#1025 of 2923)

Was anyone able to answer whether JKR is consistent in use of a hyphen with half-blood, pure-blood, etc.? I suppose I will try to flip through some chapters to find citations, but I'm hoping someone with an eidetic memory might step up to the plate here, and settle the issue. (Sorry if there already was an answer and I wasn't paying attention.)

Ciao. Barb

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Anna L. Black - Jul 23, 2004 3:32 pm (#1026 of 2923)

Luckily, I have all five books on my computer, so I could do an automatized search. Here are the results:

In PS/SS and PoA there are no mentions of the words "pureblood" or "pure-blood".

In CoS, there are about 8-10 apperances of the word "pure-blood". No "pureblood".

In GoF, there are 2 "pure-blood"s and 2 "pureblood"s.

Finally, in OotP, there are 7-8 "pure-blood"s, and only one "pureblood" (In DD's speech.)

So, most of the time it's hyphenated, but there are exceptions. Now I'm going to do a search for half-blood/halfblood.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 23, 2004 3:45 pm (#1027 of 2923)

Anna, you're great! Thanks. Maybe this is much ado about nothing, but I hope not.

Or...maybe the mid-90s is a period of flux, and the usage in the Wizarding world is doing its gradual shift to the 3rd (closed) form.

Ciao. Barb

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Anna L. Black - Jul 23, 2004 3:55 pm (#1028 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 23, 2004 3:56 pm
OK, I've checked the 'half's now - it's only "half-blood", no "halfblood"s at all. But the word appears only 4 times in OotP and only 3 times in CoS.

Also, it's always "half-giant" (although there was one appearance of "half giant", as two separate words), and always "half-breed". Oh, and there was one "half-brother".

And I must say, Rowling just loooooooves the word "halfway". It appears too many times And another crucial fact for us to sleep well tonight - it's always "half-moon" (DD's glasses ).

Hmmmm, should I search "muggle-born"/"muggleborn" now?

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DJ Evans - Jul 23, 2004 4:07 pm (#1029 of 2923)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Anna, I must ask---how did you get the books on your computer? Is there software out there that I haven't heard about? Or did you painstakingly type all of them in? Just curious--yet I could "so" see where it would come in handy to have them in that format. (I'm jealous!!!)

Later, Deb

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Anna L. Black - Jul 23, 2004 4:16 pm (#1030 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 23, 2004 4:21 pm
It's downloaded from the internet in pdf format (You'll need Acrobat Reader for that). I'm pretty sure it's illegal or something (Can I even talk about it??), but a friend of mine told me that there's some sort of a loophole - If you own the real books, then you're allowed to keep the illegal computer versions. And I have absolutely no idea how those things were transferred to the computer. But it is really handy - especially when you need to quote something. (Although when I'm looking up something, I'd often rather do it in the real books)

Anyway, the 5 books together are about 6.5 MB, so I can email them to anyone who wants it

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DJ Evans - Jul 23, 2004 4:25 pm (#1031 of 2923)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Though I would so love to have them on my computer, with my stupid "slow" dial-up, that big of a file would take me forever to download. Still I think it is so cool & neat how you can do a auto search like you've been doing with the "-'s"!!! It must come in handy though when you don't have the books right there with you and can just do a search. As I said--!!!!

Thanks for the offer though!

Later, Deb

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 23, 2004 6:28 pm (#1032 of 2923)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
I want them Please? All 5 if you have them. Envisions not running to bedroom, kitchen, bathroom, car, wherever to look up things> :-)

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MrsGump - Jul 23, 2004 6:38 pm (#1033 of 2923)

You might want to search "purebloods" because Sirius uses it in the Black family tree scene, so there can't be just one in DD's speech.

My books are packed (except my son's copy of OotP, which I'm borrowing), so I can't look in the others. I thought I'd seen the term "pureblooded", too. I can't find a half-blood reference that does not have the hyphen, though. I'll keep looking, I guess I could use another read of OotP :-)

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KWeldon - Jul 23, 2004 7:52 pm (#1034 of 2923)

Anna,

Can you search "half blood" instead of half-blood or halfblood??

Thanks, KWeldon

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Susurro Notities - Jul 24, 2004 12:19 am (#1035 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 24, 2004 12:19 am
Please forgive and ignore me if I am bringing up a previously discussed topic (I have been gone from the forum for a bit so in trying to catch up I have read the last 1/3 of the posts in this thread).

Prince of what? We have not seen any mention of present day royalty in the wizarding world. Is this like European royalty who no longer reign? Or does it refer to the past? Either way what power or influence would this Prince have?

Maybe the words to focus on are not "Half Blood" but "Prince" denoting power and influence. (past, present, future?) The other word I find interesting is "and". She did not use the word versus she used a word that indicates a link.

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Anna L. Black - Jul 24, 2004 1:41 am (#1036 of 2923)

When I did the search, I searched for the words "pure" and "half" - it finds them even when they're part of one word, like halfway, so it was supposed to find "purebloods". I searched again, and "purebloods" didn't appear anywhere - it was always hyphenated in the Black family tree scene.

Also, I always checked the next couple of words to see the meaning, so I'm pretty sure that there are no "half blood"s anywhere.

But now that I'm thinking about it - perhaps the British and the American versions are different? Books 1-4 on my computer are American, while OotP is British - could there be differences in the use of the hyphen in these words?

TwinklingBlueEyes (and anyone else who wants it ) - just email me (anna_livshits@yahoo.com), and I'll send it to you

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Madame Librarian - Jul 24, 2004 6:24 am (#1037 of 2923)

Susurro, what a good question. I have (eons ago, it seems) asked a similar question about Voldemort. Lord of what? I realize he adopted that title for himself, and was not knighted or anything (at least as far as we're told) so it's merely an affectation of his "new" self, but in a culture that may have in the present and probably did have a in the past a royal element, it seems to work. Think of all the knights and titles of the ghost and portrait characters, most from earlier periods in history and I think we have to say that there was a royalty of sorts. It probably paralleled what the Muggle situation is/was like. I don't think JKR went far afield on that issue in designing a radically different system. Also, the Muggle and Wizard societies rubbed elbows a bit more openly way back when, so the royalty business might have been a common element.

Your question begs the next question: if there's a Prince, is there a King (or Queen?). In other cultures the title Prince may reflect the Big Kahuna in that the term King is not used or is reserved for a deity, but in western culture a Prince is usually just a "next-in-line" title. I might be overly picky here. JKR could just have chosen Prince over King because it suggests a younger character or sounded better when used in the title. And, yes, there are instances where Prince does imply the top level, but I still throw this out for discussion.

And, regarding "and" (hmmm, that looks weird): though there may be some deeper signifigance, I think JKR was just following suit--all the other titles use "and." To break tradition now would be jarring and possibly cause riots in the streets. The word can legitimately be used to connect two separate nouns or noun phrases (meaning that both will feature somehow in the story) without necessarily tying them together in a tight link or direct dramatic relationship.

All in all, I hold that the most eyebrow-raising chunk of the title is the compound Half Blood.

Ciao. Barb

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contess lillein asend - Jul 24, 2004 10:47 am (#1038 of 2923)

Good Point.

What if the half blood prince isn't really a Prince, Like say, Lockhart who can't remember who he is and now thinks he's a prince.

Book one does say that all 4 houses "each have their own NOBLE history". Could all four have been royals.

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Mark Evans - Jul 24, 2004 1:41 pm (#1039 of 2923)

It could also be a title assigned to someone who does something noteworthy by the popular press Harry is "the boy who lived" so and so is "the half blood prince"

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Mark Evans - Jul 24, 2004 1:48 pm (#1040 of 2923)

I have two guesses. One is Dobby. The other is really unlikely but it has the advantage of being completely original (at least I'm pretty sure it is, I haven't actually read all 1040 posts) My second guess is that we don't meet the half blood prince, but we hear about him in another prophesy. But by the end of book seven we know that the half blood prince is none other than . . .

the yet to be born child of Harry and Hermione.

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Susurro Notities - Jul 24, 2004 5:08 pm (#1041 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 24, 2004 5:13 pm
Good thoughts Madam Librarian,
I suppose what I wonder is what he was/is Prince of? Is there a British royal wizarding family, a French one, a Bulgarian royal family....or is there a royal family for all of the wizarding world? I would think that this family does not currently have any official power as we have not heard of a wizarding royal family to date. So what is the significance of this royalty today? Is/was there a King/Queen if so are they important too? Or is this just a media title - Prince of Pop music or Prince of design for instance.
You are undoubtably correct about "and".
I do not mean to discount the half blood portion of the title. I only mean to say that there has been a lot of discussion about half blood and significantly less about the rest of the title.
By the way I tend to lean, as others here do, to the thought that the Prince is someone from the past: Gryffindor, Tom Riddle, Grindelwald.... I would think if it was Draco or Neville we should know that by now, I their families would be proud of having royal blood.

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karlii silverstorm - Jul 24, 2004 6:12 pm (#1042 of 2923)

hi all..

I had written a long spiel, delineating my idea for the HBP, and it disappeared when I went to post it. ;.-(

deep breath* here goes:

Dean Thomas. As the son of Regulus Black.

There was a post on Jul 9, by Wandless Wizard about the idea of Regulus having a son with a muggle, and that being a reason he wanted to back out of the Death Eaters.

I had come to that conclusion a couple of weeks ago myself, and looked at Dean Thomas as the person most likely to be that son.

I think there must be a good reason why JKR has put so much his background on her website.... to sort of soften us up to the idea when the book comes out. Otherwise, we'd have still thought of him as Muggle-born.

Doesn't Dean still think he is Muggle-born? I think he does, and his voyage of discovery, will have something to do with Harry.

Probably something to do with magically finding the heir to the Black family fortune. Narcissa, Bellatrix and Andromeda would all stand in line.. unless there is a more direct heir, which I am sure some magical lawyer-type person could find out.

Maybe Narcissa wants the money, (seems logical) or maybe the right to Kreacher. But they tell her no, there is an heir.

So that is my theory!

crosses fingers* *prepares to click*

Now that it is up, I see I forgot something the second time around.

I realize Dean was edited out of PS, but in the description of him in the sorting scene in SS, he is described as "a Black boy, even taller..." pg 152

Angelina is described as "a tall black girl" GF p261

Kingsley Shacklebolt: "...said a bald black wizard standing..." OP p47

Lee Jordan is described as having dreadlocks SS p117

I know it may be a typo, in that Black is capitalized for Dean Thomas. But maybe not. Little clues. Little insignificant clues.

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Eponine - Jul 24, 2004 7:15 pm (#1043 of 2923)

karlii, interesting observation about the Black being capitalized. I want to check in my books, but I loaned out both copies of PS/SS. When will I learn not to let those books leave my house?

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Tarantallegra - Jul 24, 2004 9:37 pm (#1044 of 2923)

Dumbledore Is The Giant Squid
No, "Black" is defiantly capitalized in my copy, American, published 1997. Maybe it refers to his race, such as Chinese, or Swedish. We capitalize them... but I am not a grammar Guru! Cheers to those of you who are! I certainly hope this means Dean is (Regulus) Black's son!!!!

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Elanor - Jul 24, 2004 11:33 pm (#1045 of 2923)

Coming back to the "prince" subject : if we assume he is Godric Gryffindor, and a half blood, then we could presume that :

1) Godric was born of a Muggle royal parent and a witch / wizard, that would have given him the title of prince, even if he wasn't likely to ever reign. At that time, royal families were often large ones, and the title of "prince" wasn't given only to the one who would succeed to the king. The latter was called the Dauphin.

2) He was the first wizard in this family and was raised in both cultures, which could explain why he wore such a "royal" sword, and was so attached to chivalry valours for his own students.It could also explain why he thought half bloods and Muggle borns should be allowed to study wizardry.

Does it make sense ?

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 25, 2004 12:58 am (#1046 of 2923)

You have an interesting theory about Dean Thomas, karlii. Unfortunately, the evidence seems to be against it.

First, J.K. Rowling does say she had originally intended to introduce his background in book 2 but removed it (which would support it being part of the material being moved to book six because it's more appropriate there and thus making him an ostensible candidate for the HBP). However, in the same paragraph she says:

His story was included in an early draft of 'Chamber of Secrets' but then cut by me, because it felt like an unnecessary digression. Now I don't think his history will ever make it into the books.

and then later says:

I suppose in some ways I sacrificed Dean's voyage of discovery for Neville's which is more important to the central plot.

That would seem to fairly clearly indicate he's not going to ever be a significant character.

As for him being the son of Regulus Black, any evidence one way or the other suggests that he probably isn't Regulus Black's son. J.K. Rowling states that Dean Thomas's father married a muggle, first and foremost. Regulus Black believed in purity of blood, so it's doubtful he'd marry a muggle. Dean Thomas's father was killed by the Death Eaters because he refused to join them. Regulus Black, on the other hand, was a Death Eater when he was killed. Again, this would suggest two separate people.

As for whether or not the fact he's characterized as a "tall Black boy" is important, J.K. Rowling notes that he's only described in the American versions of the book, and not in the British, because it was felt to be an unnecessary bit of information to keep in.

I would suspect that Black is capitalized because it is referring to his race, and the editor working on the text simply chose to capitalize the word.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 25, 2004 7:09 am (#1047 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
J.K. Rowling states that Dean Thomas's father married a muggle, first and foremost. Regulus Black believed in purity of blood, so it's doubtful he'd marry a muggle.

The original theory that karlii based her new theory on was mine. In it, I supposed that Regulus Black wanted to leave Voldemort because he had fallen in love with a muggle. It is not an uncommon story for someone to fall in love with someone they are supposed to hate. This love for a single person can change the feelings for the whole group. I further supposed Voldemort asked him to kill her, not realizing it was Regulus' wife, and Regulus refused. Having to kill your wife would drive home the terrible nature of the things he was supposed to do.

Dean Thomas's father was killed by the Death Eaters because he refused to join them. Regulus Black, on the other hand, was a Death Eater when he was killed.

From a certain point of view, Regulus was killed because he refused to join the death eaters. In refusing Voldemort he in effect quit the death eaters. And by continuing to refuse Voldemort's commands, he refused to rejoin the fold. So they killed him because he refused to (re)join.

I agree with the first part of what you said though. It is unlikely Dean because JKR said that we will probably not see the story of his parent's told. From the first though, I have liked the Dean Thomas as the HBP. I always wondered if Ginny's announcement that she was dating him would give him a larger role. Even though the facts are against him, I liked seeing him fit so nicely in my son of Regulus theory. Thanks karlii.

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aberforth dumbledore's #1 fan - Jul 25, 2004 11:29 am (#1048 of 2923)

Has anyone here heard about the Hogwarts graveyard that JKR told Alfonso Cuaron about? Alfonso was going to put a graveyard in one of the scenes in POA but JKR told him not to because he didnt know where to put it and because it would be important to book 6. You can read the full article here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

P.S. I'm sorry if this has already been posted, I've been gone for a week and haven't read all of the new posts yet.

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Hollywand - Jul 25, 2004 11:48 am (#1049 of 2923)

Gryffindor
Betcha anything the graveyard in question is in Godrich's Hollow, Aberforth and welcome back.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 25, 2004 11:52 am (#1050 of 2923)

Do you think Godric's Hollow is near the school, like Aragog's Hollow?

Sorry, off topic. I thought I knew who HBP would be, but everyone has such good points that I am lost again.

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Chemyst - Jul 25, 2004 2:20 pm (#1051 of 2923)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Drat! AD's#1fan, I guess I waited too long... Yes, Cuarón reported that Rowling told him that there was a graveyard on the other side of Hogwarts that would be in future books. So I have been spending the past two weeks reading CS and looking for possible graveyard links. I'm working on an idea that the HBP is a statue or marker in the graveyard, but I haven't found anything solid yet. 'Just going on a general feeling that the HBP is no one alive. 'Maybe just an epitaph that gives a good clue. I'd been hoping I'd find something before people remembered that interview. Oh well, I'll keep looking.

So who could be buried there? Can we assume that James & Lily were blown to bits and never buried? And no, I don't think Godric's Hollow is within an evening's walking distance like Aragog's place.

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Joelle - Jul 25, 2004 2:55 pm (#1052 of 2923)

Wait wasnt sirius killed by ak too? so that would mean since he was whole lily and james would be as well and would thus be buried ?

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 25, 2004 3:08 pm (#1053 of 2923)

I don't think we can assume that Godric's Hollow is anywhere near Hogwarts for the very simple reason that J.K. Rowling has never said where it is.

As for James and Lily, I don't think Voldemort's curse would have blown them apart. If you read the beginning of Goblet of Fire, you find out that the Avada Kedavra curse leaves the bodies of those it kills quite unmarked. It didn't mark any of the riddles, and it didn't mark Frank Bryce. The spider it was used on simply rolled over and died, and there wasn't so much as a fingerprint left behind on Cedric Diggory's body when he was killed by it. Therefore Lily and James Potter probably looked very much the same dead as they did alive. If their bodies were destroyed, they were destroyed when their house was. If not, then James and Lily Potter are probably buried, and we just haven't been to their graveyard yet.

And no, Sirius wasn't killed by the Avada Kedavra curse. He was knocked off balance by a spell cast at him by Bellatrix Lestrange, and fell through "the veil".

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Hollywand - Jul 25, 2004 3:29 pm (#1054 of 2923)

Gryffindor
Gosh, I love the idea of the HBP being an epitath of some sort, great suggestion, Chemyst!

If the first duel to rebuild Voldy was at his dad's plot, maybe the second will involve Harry's parents and their magic. Yikes.

Maybe Godric's Hollow is like the Room of Requirement. It appears when bidden, so could be anywhere. Maybe only a headless horseman can guide you there, maybe just through the Forbidden Forest, right by the Whomping Willow......

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Richard !!!Reid - Jul 25, 2004 3:41 pm (#1055 of 2923)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] opens on the 13th of November at 9pm GTM
I agree with the post that the HBP is not alive and I really like the idea of a statue in the mysterious graveyard - perhaps an entrance into Godric Gryffindor's secret chamber. I also think that it's possible that Harry's parents could be buried there.

I know it's been stated before, but I feel that the whole war is related to Gryffindor versus Slytherin and perhaps the original two will make an appearance before the end. I was also wondering whether Godric could have returned as someone else, perhaps Nick, or Dumbledore or even Harry - could he possess him like Voldemort did in the final battle, then it technically would not be Harry that kills LV.

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Chemyst - Jul 25, 2004 3:43 pm (#1056 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I don't think Voldemort's green-light curse would have blown them apart either, Andrew. But we are left to speculate if the bodies were inside when the house went up, and the details of how Hagrid picked Harry out of the rubble. And that is quickly wandering off-topic, but as this discussion progresses, it seems possible that the HBP is linked more to Harry's parents and their past than to any of his contemporaries. ( And in hindsight, it seems even stranger that we never hear Harry ask Aunt Petunia about his parents' grave, especially since for most of his life he believed they died in an ordinary automobile accident.)

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contess lillein asend - Jul 25, 2004 3:49 pm (#1057 of 2923)

You "Don't ask questions" in the Dursley household.

I also think that Harry being the last descendent of Gryffindor and Voldie being the last descendant of Slytherin will fulfill that battle.

I still like Gryffindor being the "Prince of the Half Bloods".

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Verschwinden Sie - Jul 25, 2004 3:55 pm (#1058 of 2923)

I agree, Contess. Harry Potter was kept very sequestered and given very little information concerning his personal life. I don't think the Dursleys would have taken Harry to see his parents' graves because they never took him anywhere. Heck, if we had been a little less centered on the Sorcerer's Stone, the title could've very well just have been "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Privet Drive" (those objecting to the "Harry Potter and Harry Potter" titles notwithstanding).

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Madame Librarian - Jul 25, 2004 4:01 pm (#1059 of 2923)

In PoA Sirius tells Harry that when he went to check on Pettigrew at Godric's Hollow, he saw James's and Lily's bodies. It's in chapter 19, pg. 365, US paperback:

"...The night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didn't feel right. I was scared. I set out for your parent's house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies...I realized what Peter must've done...what I'd done...."

OK, pretty clear statement about seeing bodies there. But I wonder if it was really James and Lily. I suppose JKR could pull a real twist here, but I think it would have to be an really carefully done unraveling.

Back to the graveyard business. I like the idea that the HBP is a statue or on a gravestone. It jives with the hyphen problem--no hyphen = more archaic version of the term half blood (assuming JKR is following the conventions I found in bunches of grammar books). Ergo, the HBP is a historical figure, possibly good ol' Godric himself.

Ciao. Barb

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Richard !!!Reid - Jul 25, 2004 4:22 pm (#1060 of 2923)

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I was re-reading the JKR interview and she stated that Wormtale had not transferred his debt to Voldemort and therefore, he still owes Harry. I have a feeling that he will fullfil that debt by saving Harry from Voldemort. Perhaps Harry is about to become AK'd and he "takes the blow".

I also have been pondering the idea that LV attempts to AK Harry again but it is deflected - perhaps Petunia dies to save harry or even Dumbledore?? - or has that been done too much??

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toonwarrior - Jul 25, 2004 4:24 pm (#1061 of 2923)

I like the idea of the HBP being someone not all the way alive, too, but their spirit might be still at Hogwarts (sort of how Dumbledore's spirit is always their even when he is not). This mainly due to the awkwardness of having another 'superstar' if you will in addition to Harry and DD.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 25, 2004 4:32 pm (#1062 of 2923)

I am with you Richard. I think LV is going to try and AK Harry again. I believe DD is going to take this one for him. Why? DD loves Harry. Could this reinforce the charm?

I think DD know that Harry was supposed to die in the end, but now that he loves him, he has to rework the end. Maybe a little self sacrifice and a transfer of powers. That ought to put Harry right about Voldie's level.

Then Gryffindor (Harry) the HBP, and Slytherin (Voldie) can do battle once more.

As a side note: was watching S/P Stone, when HRH enter the forbidden third floor corridor, is that a statue of Slytherin in storage. (Sure looks like Voldie).

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Richard !!!Reid - Jul 25, 2004 4:38 pm (#1063 of 2923)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] opens on the 13th of November at 9pm GTM
I noticed that as well. I wonder if the third floor will appear again in the final two books. I have a feeling that the final battle will take place in hogwarts. Is there any other more fitting place?

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MrsGump - Jul 25, 2004 5:39 pm (#1064 of 2923)

I thought that statue was the hump-backed witch of Marauders' Map fame.

I like the idea that the HBP will be "found" in the graveyard, too. I still have no real guess as to who the HBP is, but I like the Gryffindor theories best so far.

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Courtney22 - Jul 25, 2004 9:18 pm (#1065 of 2923)

I just want to say that even if James and Lily's bodies were destroyed by the curse or the blowing up of the house I would venture to guess they would still have head stones somewhere. Just because there's not a body doesn't mean there wasn't a burial service and a grave site somewhere.

Also to piggy back off what someone said that the HBP could be related to a statue or grave in the graveyard by Hogwarts; what if Harry is finally told where his parents graves are and when he visits them he finds that statue or what not. Also many noble houses have mosoliums (sp?) where the entire family is housed. Perhaps Lily and James are in some type of royal mosolium with the HBP. I know Harry isn't the HBP but a grave yard does offer some interesting possibilities.

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Elanor - Jul 25, 2004 11:09 pm (#1066 of 2923)

I like the idea of a statue related to the HPB in the Hogwarts' graveyard ! And there could be Godric's grave. It would fit well with the Griffin's symbolism I was talking about. Don't think I'm obsessed with it, but I still think this is important. As I said, griffins were known to guard treasures and they symbolized the obstacle one must get over to reach the treasure.

So a griffin on Godric's grave (represented by a statue, a riddle or a bas relief...) could lead Gryffindor's heir to his treasure, whatever it could be, which could help him against Voldemort. If, this is true, I bet you the griffin have ruby eyes. Ruby, the "blood stone", Gryffindor's stone too, known to be the last thing that could shine through the darkness...

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contess lillein asend - Jul 26, 2004 5:16 am (#1067 of 2923)

If all four houses have Noble origins does that make:

Godric - the Half Blood Prince Salazar - the Pure Blood Prince Rowena - the Mud Blood Princess and Helga - the Squib/Muggle Princess?

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 26, 2004 5:44 am (#1068 of 2923)

Direct quote from J K Rowling's website about Tom Riddle being the half-blood/half blood prince.

Is Tom Riddle the Half-Blood Prince? Well, as Tom Riddle is the same person as Voldemort, and Voldemort is NOT the Half-Blood Prince… do I really need to answer this?

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snowflake - Jul 26, 2004 6:20 am (#1069 of 2923)

Last one I read of this thread was #365 and I sort of glanced through the rest. Yesterday I watched CoS again and also read part of the book. I think HBP is Tom Riddle. HP and HBP may be about TR growing up, his development from birth to becoming Voldemort, in comparison to HP. Something is nagging in my brains, that HP is also a descendant of Slytherin, it is mentioned several times that only a Slytherin descendant can open the Chamber of Secrets. And HP did open the CoS. The Sorting Hat also wanted to put HP in Slytherin, but it is only HP's CHOICE that put him in Gryffindor. So you have both TR and HP, both of them descendants of Slytherin, very similar, talented, even same core in their wands, and yet different: only because their choices are different. So figuratively it is always the fight in a person: does the "good" (which can be harder to do), or the "bad" (which is easier to do)part win?

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contess lillein asend - Jul 26, 2004 6:34 am (#1070 of 2923)

WOW! JK's latest post as thrown me for a loop. Where do we start now? Dobby? he was a discovery in two. What else?

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 26, 2004 6:53 am (#1071 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 26, 2004 6:56 am
OK, this quote has popped up on other threads, but wanted to add it here. This is from JKR's website:

The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'. Emphasis mine.

Ok, I emphasized the fact that there is no trace of the HBP in the CoS story. So we have been going down the wrong path. The question is what does she mean, by no trace. Does she mean the character who eventually becomes the HBP is not in the CoS at all or there is no trace of the title HBP but the character is still there. I think it is the former, that the person who is the HBP is not in CoS. This rules out lots of our theories like Gryffindor, Hagrid, Dobby, Seamus, Dean, Neville, Draco and more. The other questions we need to ask ourselves: does the characetr appear later (for example, Lupin) and is the character related to characters that have appeared (heir of Gryffindor?)? PErsonally I think this bit of info puts this thread back to square one.

EDIT: JKR also says on her site that Tom Riddle is Voldemort and therefore cannot be the HBP. I am not going to say I told you so...wait, actually I am going to say I told you so. So, I told you so

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contess lillein asend - Jul 26, 2004 6:59 am (#1072 of 2923)

Wandless - doesn't she say that the HBP might be described as a strand of the overall plot. I don't know that we can narrow it down to one, entity, human or not.

You know, JK really is the brightest witch of her age. Just when I think I have exhausted myself and my interest begins to wan, she comes along and stirs the cauldron yet again, and here we are right back in the thick of it.

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MrsGump - Jul 26, 2004 7:04 am (#1073 of 2923)

I agree, Wandless Wizard.

I still like the idea of something in the graveyard being related. I can imagine trying to have a "I want to see my parents grave" story line put into CoS. Harry is over his first intial awe of the wizarding world and actually asks some real questions ( :-) ). I can also see how that might have been too long of a side track from the story, especially considering the publishers were trying to keep the books a normal length for a children's chapter book.

But now that Sirius is gone, maybe Harry will want a memorial headstone for him, and place it near his parents, so we'll get to see the graveyard. JKR knew when she was killing Sirius, so she would know what book the graveyard would be shown and saved the story line.

On a side note, everywhere JKR used Half-Blood Prince, there was a hyphen. So maybe the lack of one in our first glimpse was a mistake/ typo by her web master?

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KWeldon - Jul 26, 2004 7:31 am (#1074 of 2923)

Mrs. Gump,

I noticed the inclusion of the hyphen, too, of course! I'd like to think it was a typo by the web master instead of her, but who knows?

Bless her for giving us these new pieces of information instead of making us wait for Book 6.

KWeldon

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 26, 2004 7:35 am (#1075 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Contess, I think she was refering to the strands that are weaved together to make a story. For example, Harry's struggle with knowing he was almost put in Slytherin is a strand. The history of the founders and the CoS is another strand. Tom Riddle as the gifted student who became Voldemort is another. When you weave all these strands together, they fit nicely. While the HBP strand did not. I think the HBP strand refers to the entire story revolving around the person who is the HBP. Just as the Founders strand refers to the history surrounding the people who are the founders, Slytherin, Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, and Huflepuff. The fact that there is a founders strand does not mean the founders are not actual people. So I think that the HBP is a single person, but he has a whole story that goes with him. This story was taken out of CoS. As for whether we can narrow it down to the correct answer, well it is doubtful without more clues. But there is a person to whom to narrow it. At least that is how I read it. Does that make any sense?

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contess lillein asend - Jul 26, 2004 7:54 am (#1076 of 2923)

Wandless, yes that makes perfect sense. I have been on the time travel thread too long

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mrweasley - Jul 26, 2004 8:08 am (#1077 of 2923)

Wandless, I also think that it is important to notice that JKR described the HBP as a strand of the story. To me it indicates that we are dealing with a person from the past, because he/she could be weaved into a story easier than a living person.

I guess it would've been difficult to introduce a crucial character in Book 6 that was originally planned for Book 2, if he was a contemporary of Harry's. Just doesn't sound probable, does it?

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Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2004 8:42 am (#1078 of 2923)

Librarian
"a strand of the story"

I like this. I still think that someone at the Deathlcay party will be important. No idea who. Maybe I should reread.

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Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2004 9:21 am (#1079 of 2923)

Librarian
In posting 1079 it should say Deathday. I'll have to use 'Check Spelling' all of the time from now on.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 26, 2004 9:30 am (#1080 of 2923)

Nah, Steve, around we here we just go iron our hands when we make a mistake. Knocking one's head repeatedly with the mouse works, too.

Ciao. Barb

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Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2004 9:44 am (#1081 of 2923)

Librarian
I'll have to try that.

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Joelle - Jul 26, 2004 10:00 am (#1082 of 2923)

ehy guys i couldnt remember which forum section we were talking about the weasley clock but i finally found the quote about it.

GoF american page 151 "Mre. Weasley glanced at the grandfather clock in the corner. Harry liked this clock. It was completely useless if you wanted to know the time but otherwise very informative. It had 9 golden hands , and each of them was engraved with one of the weasley's family names. There were no numerals around the face, but descriptions of where each family member might be. "Home," "school," "work," were there , but there was also "traveling," "lost," "hospital," "prison," and, int he position where the number twelve would be on a normal clock "mortal peril". "

sorry for the length. but there seemed to be a bit of debate about whether the clock was pure movie or not.

now that i think about it this post may be more related to the chambers clues. as i think it was there that we were talking about a clock. please move if necessary

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Richard !!!Reid - Jul 26, 2004 10:41 am (#1083 of 2923)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] opens on the 13th of November at 9pm GTM
Perhaps the HBP is a collection of something. We know that the sorting hat has the "brains" of all the four founders. Perhaps the HBP is a person or spirit of even just an idealology of the four founders? Just a thought

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Weeny Owl - Jul 26, 2004 10:56 am (#1084 of 2923)

Well, I'm disappointed in the Riddle/Voldemort theory not panning out, but it isn't a surprise. At least it's an answer, though.

It's time to reread CoS again and try to find one thing Harry discovers that hasn't been explained.

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DJ Evans - Jul 26, 2004 12:35 pm (#1085 of 2923)

Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'. JKR web site (Bold mine)

OK, my question is, the discovery that Harry made in "Chamber", that she keeps bringing up---is she talking about the entire "book" of SS/PS or is it just the Chamber itself? To me, it sounds like she is speaking of only the Chamber itself, but I was wondering if I was reading her wrong there & you all thought she means the book of SS/PS.

Later, Deb

EDIT: I meant to say "CoS" and not SS/PS!!!! DUR, yep I'm on top of things aren't I? Sorry about that!!

2nd EDIT: Thanks KWeldon & Wandless for showing me the "err" of my ways!!!

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KWeldon - Jul 26, 2004 12:45 pm (#1086 of 2923)

Deb,

Since she has the word 'Chamber' in quotation marks, I believe she is referring to the entire book of CoS, not just the chamber left by Slytherin itself.

KWeldon

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 26, 2004 12:48 pm (#1087 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Deb, I don't think it relates to SS/PS. I think it relates to the book, CoS. If it were something in the actual chamber, I think it would have been worded differently. First there would be an article in front of chamber, like "the". Wheras plain "Chamber" is an offhand way to refer to the second book. Secondly I think "in" would have been different or supplemented, for example "while in" or "inside". I could be wrong though. Very tricksy Ms. Rowling, you act like you are telling us something but it can be read 7 different ways. You should know by now that we will pick every word apart

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Kwikspell - Jul 26, 2004 12:50 pm (#1088 of 2923)

Marketers? Bah!
I love Chemyst's prediction that the HBP is a notation on a gravestone in the Hogwarts graveyard. JKR's website comments regarding the relationship between CoS and HBP either lend credence to the Godric/Salazar rift theory or at least point to the HBP as a historical figure.

The one thing that's been bugging me about the impending "war" between the houses is the role of the House of Slytherin. Obviously, not everyone who is sorted into that house is evil, but JKR has set up the books as if many of the students in the house are well, vicious. We have a lot of samples of how nasty Slytherins can be (ambushing members of other house's Quidditch teams in the hallway, malicious conduct during Quidditch matches, etc.), but the best proof is their reaction to the toast to Cedric at the end of GoF, "...Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and many of the other Slytherins had remained defiantly in their seats, their goblets untouched," (GoF, UK hardcover p. 627). With students like these in Slytherin, the Sorting Hat's warning in OotP really does appear to be an impossible task. Though, I'm not in favor of chucking them all out, either, as one of the students (Ron, maybe) suggested in CoS.

Ooo, and thanks to Aberforth D's #1 fan for posting the graveyard article.

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riddikulus - Jul 26, 2004 1:11 pm (#1089 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 26, 2004 1:15 pm
Well, Jo says it all, on her site. The title, Half-Blood Prince, relates to a discovery Harry makes in the "Chamber" that foreshadows something that he finds out in book 6.

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FCBarca - Jul 26, 2004 1:17 pm (#1090 of 2923)

Actually, it says: "Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber'..."

As all the book names are in quotation marks, she must mean the book.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 26, 2004 1:19 pm (#1091 of 2923)

I don't think it's actually the Chamber itself, but the entire book. She used 'Chamber,' 'Goblet,' 'Phoenix,' etc., so it seems as if she's talking about the book.

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KWeldon - Jul 26, 2004 1:21 pm (#1092 of 2923)

Riddikulus

It depends on how you define "relates." She says, "The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.).

It sounds like CoS gives us no clue who the HbP is.

KWeldon

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 26, 2004 1:27 pm (#1093 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 26, 2004 1:28 pm
Not only that but the "discovery" in CoS has nothing to do with the title. All traces of the HBP were removed from CoS. She specifically says on her website that we will not figure out who the HBP is by looking at CoS. See my Post #1072 for the quote. The "discovery" foreshadows a different part of book 6. That is why I think Godric Gryffindor is out for the HBP.

Edit: KWeldon beat me to it.

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Hollywand - Jul 26, 2004 3:54 pm (#1094 of 2923)

Gryffindor
One core discovery of the Chamber is that "it's your choices that make you who you are."

Through Harry's choice, the Sorting Hat puts him in Gryffindor. Harry discovers that physical objects can be pulled from the Sorting Hat; Gryffindor's sword.

More choices, more objects from the Sorting Hat?

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hawkeyetkdchick - Jul 26, 2004 3:56 pm (#1095 of 2923)

Ok, I have a crazy theory on who the HBP might be.... Draco Malfoy! With Lucius gone to Azkaban, maybe Draco's mom reveals that Lucius isn't his real dad-he has a muggle dad. Rowling also says that Draco's mom will have a bigger role in book six (I think it was on her website...). Ok, so I really think that Hagrid is the HBP but wouldn't it be weird if it was Draco?

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Richard !!!Reid - Jul 26, 2004 4:00 pm (#1096 of 2923)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] opens on the 13th of November at 9pm GTM
Did the sword exist before it appeared in the hat. I mean, is it possible Dumbledore already had it - and sent it as a gift to Harry, after all "help will always be available to those who need it." If so, is there a relationsip between Dumbledore and Godric?

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Hollywand - Jul 26, 2004 4:07 pm (#1097 of 2923)

Gryffindor
Methinks you are correct Richard. Fawkes and the Sorting Hat are in Dumbledore's office most of the time. Since the Hat and the phoenix were summoned by Harry, and the sword in the hat, it seems to me that the sword must be in the hat magically. The other detail you just called to my attention is that Fawkes chooses sides. He comes to Harry's aid, he air lifts Harry et al out, he heals Harry with his tears. Fawkes is a fate maker, and it looks like he's behind Dumbledore and Harry.

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riddikulus - Jul 26, 2004 9:43 pm (#1098 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 26, 2004 9:48 pm
Sorry, FCBarca...I added a "the" ...regardless... The Chamber of Secrets, the book, is the chamber itself, basically... I still think the clue is a big one. Harry makes a discovery in the book that will lead us to the next. The story itself though, had no merit to the half-blood prince, or she would have kept that as it's title, then. So, we're on the right track.

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Elanor - Jul 26, 2004 11:13 pm (#1099 of 2923)

Hi Hollywand ! I don't remember where exactly it is, but there is a theory somewhere in this site concerning Fawkes. This theory says that Fawkes may have belonged to Godric Gryffindor himself, for a phoenix may live for centuries and because he is red and gold, which are Gryffindor's colours.

More, where does he live ? In Dumbledore's office, like Gryffindor's hat (the Sorting Hat itself) and Gryffindor's sword. Don't you think it is curious how many things Godric use to belong are so well kept, and with such deference, nowadays, in the headmaster's office ? Of course, there could also been kept things who belonged once to the other founders that we don't know yet, but still...

And you're right, Fawkes seems to be behind Harry and Dumbledore : a phoenix song helped Harry in the Graveyard in GoF, Fawkes cured him after that in Dumbledore's office. In OotP, he is a messenger, a guardian, he helps Dumbledore escaping and saves Harry from the AK at the end ! Maybe has he even more to show now. That's why I think Godric's theory for the HBP is still in the running, because if Fawkes is behind Harry, well Godric's spirit (meaning what he truly believed in) must be.

PS : far fetched theory here : don't forget Harry's wand's core is one of Fawkes feathers ! Voldemort's wand has the same, but maybe Fawkes doesn't like what V did with his wand which is a part of him...

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2004 2:48 am (#1100 of 2923)

Chemyst - Half Blood Prince being the insciption on a tomb stone. Didn't JKR and Curon say something about a grave yard was going to be put in the third film but was removed as it was vital for a later book. A grave stone that leads Harry to discover something, I like it. Very similar to my idea about it being a portrait rather than a living person. This could still be Gryffindor, his grave, his portrait, his memorial. If so then what is to be discovered will not be obvious.

I posted on the clues thread some ideas about what the discovery could be. I now have two many theories. One is the connection between Harry and Voldemort, the other is the attitude about pure bloods and mud-bloods. Both have been developed through the following books so I'm not sure which one it will be. Probably neither.

But I like the idea about Fawkes. Headteachers pet?

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Hollywand - Jul 27, 2004 3:39 am (#1101 of 2923)
Gryffindor
Elanor, that's a great detail to notice about Fawkes resisting what Voldemort has done with the feather gift he gave for the wand! If Fawkes is a fate maker, Voldemort is tempting fate.

I've always wondered why Fawkes was so clearly on Harry's side, and the feather puts a nice context to his actions.

And Phelim, to address your point, the interesting detail Rowling gives us about the phoenix, is that it rarely can be domesticated. So, if you will, Fawkes is loyal to, loves, Dumbledore. Devoted to him, willing to give his life for Dumbledore and now Harry. Not unlike Lilly's sacrifice and her protective magic. It has me wondering if Fawkes may be connected to the powerful force behind the Mystery Door at the Ministry of Magic. Fawkes seems like a wizard's "familiar".

Isn't it interesting with the emphasis on eyes, that Fawkes blinds the Basilisk as a first act of agression?

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Crookshanks - Jul 27, 2004 4:34 am (#1102 of 2923)

Edited by Jul 27, 2004 4:36 am
A stray thought: Ignore if posted earlier - Is DD half-blood ? If yes, how about DD as the HBP ?

Another candidate in my opinion could be James Potter,if he's half-blood.Someone was talking about the gravestone stuff.Could it be that of James ? We could then get to know a good number of facts related to the days of the 1st war.

Another candidate - Snape. (Again we dunno if he's half-blood or pure-blood).Those childhood scenes of Snape forced me to think on those lines.

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Elanor - Jul 27, 2004 4:34 am (#1103 of 2923)

Thanks Hollywand ! And, I was just thinking of the Order of the PHOENIX itself : it appears that even before Harry's birth, the phoenix was already the symbol of the fight against Voldemort ! It can't be just a coincidence, don't you think so ? But I don't know if it is the right thread to discuss this. If it isn't, do forgive me, and tell me where we can discuss it, ok?

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mrweasley - Jul 27, 2004 7:31 am (#1104 of 2923)

I think the most important reason for Fawkes helping Harry in the Chamber is Harry's loyalty to DD, as the latter also says:

"You must have shown me real loyalty down in the Chamber. Nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you." (CoS, ch. 18)

DD also points out that phoenixes "make highly faithful pets" (CoS, ch. 12). Therefore, I don't think that the phoenix feather inside the wands has any influence on whom Fawkes is helping.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 27, 2004 7:48 am (#1105 of 2923)

Elanor, if there is no suitable thread --like one called Fawkes--on the magical creatures chunk of the Forum (I do think there is), just start a thread. It is important to check available threads first so as to not duplicate efforts.

At the risk of being slightly O-T (off-topic) I have some thoughts about graveyards. The only one we've "visited" is the Muggle graveyard in GoF. Though some Wizards might be buried (if they are buried at all) in Muggle cemetaries since long ago the societies were more aware of each other and cooperative, and there are Wizards who choose to live (and die, I guess) amongst Muggles, the primary reason we are whisked to that graveyard along with Harry is because Voldemort needs to make his potion to restore his corporeal self with an ingredient from his father's grave. How odd! Why does he need something from a Muggle? Why not his mum's bones?

Maybe the simple answer is that he doesn't know where his mum is buried or can't go there because it is a protected site (near Hogwarts?). Is there something fishy about where Mrs. Riddle's remains are? For that matter, is there something fishy about where Lily's remains are?

How this relates to who may be the HBP is simply that my questions not only ask about burial customs, but allude to lineage--how true is what we've been told about whose parents are pure-blood, half-blood, etc. And, lineage is one of the key factors in the discussion around the identity of the HBP. Whew! Back on-topic.

Ciao. Barb

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Hollywand - Jul 27, 2004 8:21 am (#1106 of 2923)

Gryffindor
Elanor, the Order of the Phoenix is also another great sychronicity link. I will be looking for any other insights you migh have on the Fawkes thread. Thanks for a great game of Quidditch! :-)

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contess lillein asend - Jul 27, 2004 10:21 am (#1107 of 2923)

MADAME LIBRARIAN:

in the chamber thread we were discussing lineage. If Harry has, say:

Ravenclaw powers from his Father's sdie Hufflepuff powers from his mother's side Gryffindor powers donated by DD and Slytherin powers from Vodlies attack

that would make him, the houses united, the perfect weapon.

And then maybe his brother is the HBP.

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Lina - Jul 27, 2004 2:45 pm (#1108 of 2923)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
I expect that the HBP is going to be someone we haven't met yet. But, it could perfectly be Salazar Slytherin. Why does LV hate muggles so much? Because his father was one of them and he didn't take care of his son. And what if the 'prince' part comes from the muggle side? If there was a king who didn't want to merry a witch?

Jo says in the Daily news: Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planed for 'Chamber of secrets', but very early on (first draft of 'Chamber') I realized that this information's proper home was book six. I have said before that 'Chamber' holds some very important clues to the ultimate end of the series. Not as many as six...

So it could be something to do with SS (aren't the initials just interesting?)

In the "Edits" she says: I have come close to using a chapter very like this in 'Philosopher's Stone' (...), 'Prisoner of Azkaban' and 'Order of the Phoenix' but here, finally, it works, so it's staying.

I guess it should be explaining more about the Harry's past and some more of the past of the WW.

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narisa - Jul 28, 2004 3:50 am (#1109 of 2923)

Lina, do your 'WW' means world war, I don't think it is possible.

Since JK hint us about discover and foreshadow thing, I try to look back to all discoveries that seem to have clue, and I still can't find it yet. Does anyone have a clue what does she mean?

I think that the reason she give us more hint is because she crack down under pressure we keep gave her or she is pity because non of us can guess the right one. If it is the second reason, it mean that we all do the wrong way. I think it is time to find something new, people.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 28, 2004 5:50 am (#1110 of 2923)

She means Wizarding World

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Madame Librarian - Jul 28, 2004 12:56 pm (#1111 of 2923)

Note--I copied this from the "Chamber Clues in Book 6" thread. It really fits this thread better, I think. The 20 or so post I refer to are about #445 and previous.

...and, RPS, Larissa's good point leads me to state that as I read through all the most recent 20 or so posts, I was getting very uncomfortable with the scenarios that have Harry as a descendent of princely this or noble that. Aside from being an American who just doesn't quite "get" royalty in the same way as someone whose culture acknowledges it (to be sure this is not a critical comment; just an observation that what folks from countries that are monarchies, even parliamentary ones, take for granted, we Americans have to wrap our brains around it each time it's a factor in a story or character), I think JKR is not going to have everything hinge on Harry or any of the good guy gang being a royal. It would be acquiescing to the pure-blood is a notch higher that half-blood, which is higher that muggle-born. I think her whole point is going to end up with a strong message that all that horrid classification is pointless. This also ties in beautifully with the "choices" theme.

I admit the half blood prince thing in the title of book 6 is all the more intriguing to me because of this, but it only strengthens my feeling that this prince is from the past, his heir is not going to be identified. His importance might stem from being the source of a legend...a legend on which hinges the unity or survival of magic or magical beings.

Ciao. Barb

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Adami - Jul 28, 2004 1:21 pm (#1112 of 2923)

I think it also possible that Nearly Headless Nick is the HBP. My reasons:-He says he has "noble blood running through his veins".-His full name is Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington and that is mentioned in the PS and now twice (I believe) in OP. Because we don't know a lot about him I think he could be the HBP. I don't know if that makes any sense but... who knows.

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Lina - Jul 28, 2004 2:03 pm (#1113 of 2923)

Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Sorry, I mean Wizarding World. I noticed that some other people use the same abbreviation and I was a little tired of writing. I guess that my note to the SS initials confused you.

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Dean Thomas - Jul 28, 2004 2:44 pm (#1114 of 2923)

Just So you know Tom Riddle and Harry are not the half blood prince. JKR said that niether Harry,Tom, or Voldie are him.Its someone else.

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Gina R Snape - Jul 28, 2004 8:15 pm (#1115 of 2923)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I'm not really certain where to put this. But someone posted a compilation of facts about HBP from interviews/statements by JKR. I thought others might find it interesting having a whole list in front of them at once. Click Here.

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remiden - Jul 28, 2004 10:50 pm (#1116 of 2923)

I like this theory, but I do not think it will be true.

Harry, once again, loses his temper in Snapes potion class, and walkes out. Deciding to get some fresh air, he goes back to the Gryffindor common room, grabs his firebolt and heads to the quiddich practice area. He takes off, and lets the thrill of flying overtake him, allowing himself to go higher than he had ever been before. Looking down, he enjoys the arial view of Hogwarts and flies around to get a better view. Then he notices something he had never knew existed. Flying lower, he recognizes it to be a graveyard. He zooms down to it, and lands on the outskirt. Some of the names seem familiar, Harry figured he had probably heard them in Professor Binn's class, and a few he did recognize, such as Dumbledore, but most of the names he had never heard of before. He is drawn to a large statue in the center. At the bottom of the statue, there is an engraving:

Here lies Godric Gryffindor: Founder of Hogwarts: Keeper of the Pillar of Storgé: Holder of the Toenail of Icklebog: Prince of Half-Bloods:

Harry stares at the grave, unable to look away until he heas a voice behind him. Dumbledoor walks over and places a hand on Harry's shoulder. "I was wondering when you would find Gryffindor's Cemetary. Everyone of Gryffindor's decendants are buried here. Both of his sons, his grand daughters, everyone who had Godric's blood flow through their veins lies here." Harry stared at Dumbledor, "I saw your name on one of the tombstones, why didn't you tell me you were Godric's descendant?" Dumbledore looked thoughtfully at Harry for a moment, "Now that you have found this, the time is right to show you." Dumbledore led harry to a double tombstone near the edge of the cemetary. Harry's heart leapt to his throat and his knees gave out. He didn't remember sitting down, or when he had started crying at the sight of his Parent's grave stone, but it seemed like only a few moments before Dumbledore was helping him back to his feet. "So Harry, do you still think the sorting hat was wrong to place oyu in Gryffindor............."

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S.E. Jones - Jul 28, 2004 11:07 pm (#1117 of 2923)

Let it snow!
Just a reminder: Please keep fanfiction on the FanFiction Forum.

Other than that, it is a very interesting idea, remiden....

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 29, 2004 2:27 am (#1118 of 2923)

Adami, the problem with the title Sir is that it can be given by the British monarch to any male. Nearly Headless Nick could be a minor noble (probably a baron or baronette), be a knight, a warrior in service, or the son of a baron/baronette, one who will not inherit the title. If he was a baron/baronette why don't we know his title? I think this rules out Nick as the HBP.

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Crookshanks - Jul 29, 2004 3:15 am (#1119 of 2923)

With regard to JKR's recent quote on her website, I believe we can zero-in on what she is talking about by probably forming a list of the discoveries Harry makes in CoS . Could someone with the book do it ?

A few suggestions -

1) Does his parseltongue traits fit in somewhere ? He does discover that parselmouths are really rare.

2) Hagrid & Riddle being classmates. Not sure whether this is significant ...

3)ALso, A very significant discovery Harry made was Fawkes. Could he be the HBP ? Do we know for sure that it's a man ?

Any takers for DD or James as the HBP ? Or Sir Cadogan ? We know him as a knight ? So could he be ?

I was also wondering whether "Half-Blood Prince" could be a post or a title conferred on somebody.

Too much of speculation and twisted thoughts......sorry for that.

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mrweasley - Jul 29, 2004 5:41 am (#1120 of 2923)

Thanx for the link, Gina. It's a neat overview of all the aspects we can rely on regarding the HBP.
crookshanks, I think that the "Parseltongue" does fit in, as it might be a hint of Harry's connection to Voldemort and/ or S. Slytherin, who also have this very rare gift.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 5:51 am (#1121 of 2923)

Remiden: I love the theory, even though JK said Harry is not related to DD. And the epitaph had me laughing out loud. Thanks for the giggles.

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Sherbie Lemon - Jul 29, 2004 5:55 am (#1122 of 2923)

Thanks for the link, Gina. Being a list-maker myself, I can appreciate all this person's tedious work. Saved me some time, that's for sure.

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Gina R Snape - Jul 29, 2004 7:16 am (#1123 of 2923)

"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
You're welcome! It helps me keep things 'straight' as I think about what's to come, know what I mean?

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Kwikspell - Jul 29, 2004 11:04 am (#1124 of 2923)

Marketers? Bah!

groans exasperatedly* I didn't pick up the relationship between Godric's Hollow and Godric Gryffindor until remiden's post. I'm heading off to find a lamp so I can beat myself around the head. (Feel free to ignore my earsplitting yelps.)

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vball man - Jul 29, 2004 11:07 am (#1125 of 2923)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Well, since I still like my theory that this whole cycle of Dark Wizards and Boys Who Lived is recurring, I'm going to predict the HBP based on that:

First, to make a long theory short, DD's mom gave her life for him. Later, Tom's mom gave her life for him, DD knew it would happen because of another prophecy, and stuck Tom in an orphanage. In OoP DD says, "You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances..." So DD, by sticking Harry with the Dursleys, prevented Harry from being a "pampered (Half-Blood) Prince."

I think, as the the living Boy Who Lived (BWL), from the previous cycle, DD has to wait for another BWL to choose good, then DD can "retire." I think that DD was (and is) the HBP. He was a BWL, raised in a strong, pampered environment, tutored magic from an early age, and groomed to be a good wizard. Obviously, he did choose good, but I think that he felt that he would have been better off raised without knowing the burden he would carry until he was ready. DD has tried to influence his charges (Tom and Harry) in that way.

I know, you all think I'm nuts...

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remiden - Jul 29, 2004 11:08 am (#1126 of 2923)

I think the biggest thing that Harry discovered in CoS was that Voldemort had passed some of his powers into Harry. This may be too simple though.

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Kwikspell - Jul 29, 2004 11:39 am (#1127 of 2923)

Marketers? Bah!
remiden, I don't think that's simple at all and as we've seen, the link between Harry and Volemort has been a central theme in recent books, especially OotP. And we still have to figure out what the two intertwined, then separated serpents from the silver instrument in DD's office meant (check out that thread for some interesting ideas).

JKR gave no indication whether the discovery Harry makes in CoS that foreshadows something in HBP is a large A-HA! type discovery or as small as two inexpicable scorch marks in a hallway. I was leaning more towards the former, but now, I'm not so sure.

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remiden - Jul 29, 2004 12:00 pm (#1128 of 2923)

I didn't mean simple that way, but simple as in the straight foward way it was put at the end of the book. It was not hidden or slipped in somewhere.

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TomProffitt - Jul 29, 2004 12:35 pm (#1129 of 2923)

Bullheaded empiricist
Thanks for the link Gina

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Kwikspell - Jul 29, 2004 1:15 pm (#1130 of 2923)

Marketers? Bah!
remiden,

I'm thinking the same thing when I think of simple. I'm not sure whether we should be looking for something in CoS that's straight-forward and freely disclosed and becomes a theme throughout all of the books (like the link between Harry and LV or the prejudice theory) or something that's barely mentioned (like the scorch marks or that Flitwick was a dueling champion).

Anyone have any opinions one way or the other? I'm a little more inclined to think that it's a thematic introduction, but JKR does delight in little details, Mark Evans notwithstanding.

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Star Crossed - Jul 29, 2004 1:38 pm (#1131 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
vball man, how does Aberforth fit in?

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vball man - Jul 29, 2004 1:52 pm (#1132 of 2923)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Never thought about Aberforth. I suppose his odd personality could be explained by growing up with no mother, and such a special person as "Albus the Prince" for a brother. And Ron thinks he has trouble competing with his brothers.

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Norbert not a common welsh green - Jul 29, 2004 2:44 pm (#1133 of 2923)

What if the half blood prince is not important to the story.The Goblet of fire was not that important. It could have being replaced by a person or a difrent object.

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Mad-Eye Rocks - Jul 29, 2004 4:39 pm (#1134 of 2923)

Flat out we know that the Half-Blood prince is not Voldemort or Harry because J.K.R. says so in the press release:

"I shall tell you one thing without making you shift any bricks at all: the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort."

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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 5:00 pm (#1135 of 2923)

Vball man:

Being one of the people that thinks, Neville is Harry's twin and that Tom Riddle was groomed to take on Grindenwald. Maybe Neville and Aberforth are back-ups.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 5:52 pm (#1136 of 2923)

V ball: If we continue in this line of thinking:

Would Hagrid have been Volde's spare?

And...If James was also part of this line, Would Peter Pettigrew have been his spare?

So, if the "leads" had the blood of all four, and the spares had the blood of say, two -would that make them half bloods?

Again Sorry, So if Harry is the next "Dark Wizard Killer" (or whatever they are) then when Voldie opened the chamber, Harry was the Heir. Enemies of the Heir beware. I wondered why Colin and Justin were attacked. Do you think Ginny was writing that they were irritating the "heir" in TMR's diary? We know Hermione was attacked to daw Harry in. (Man I should scrub the bathroom more often, my brain won't stop, though you might disagree). Sorry, keep thinking up new things to add. So we know James had Sirius, like a brother. Harry has Ron, like a brother. But we never hear about Voldemort and DD's friends. Where are they? Volde did say he was using his new name with only those he was most intimate with. If thier absence is any indication, things are not looking so good for RON.

I know your all out there saying, whatever! But there is something going on with the strong and the weak.

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Star Crossed - Jul 29, 2004 6:15 pm (#1137 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Why aren't things looking good for Ron?

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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 6:26 pm (#1138 of 2923)

So if we stay with this line of reasoning, when Riddle opened the chamber of secrets Harry was the heir(the heir of the Dark wizard killers, or whatever we want to call them). I wondered why Colin and Justin were attacked. Was Ginny writing Harry's frustrations with them in TMR's diary? We know Hermione was attacked to draw Harry in.

Things are not looking good for Ron if the previous Wizard killer's best friends are no longer around (Sirius wasn't gone, but 12 years in Azkaban and all your previous friends hating you is bad enough).

Sorry, and what if it wasn't James but Sirius.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 7:11 pm (#1139 of 2923)

Last time I swear.... What if the order of the phoenix is the order that look after the "dark wizard killers - phoenix'" because they take on evil and if they die another one rises from the ashes to take his place. Maybe the ashes are the destruction of their proper families.

Maybe it's Lupin, does he have a proper family?

Oh yeah, half blood prince would be the dark wizard killers familiar (or something like that).

I know I rambled off topic. This theory is now running across a couple of threads. Just tell me where you want it (Oh that wasn't nice!)

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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 8:24 pm (#1140 of 2923)

Last remark...7 candles...if DWK are born every 25 years (time between current attacks) then Harry and Neville are the 7th since DD.

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vball man - Jul 29, 2004 9:27 pm (#1141 of 2923)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Wow, ContessLA, that brain of yours is churning away, isn't it? Keep going!

I'd respond to your posts, but I think that we're getting off topic.

Perhaps I'll start a thread on RBL (Recurring Boy who Lived) theory. We can't discuss RBL theory here. I only meant to say how RBL theory relates to who the HBP is.

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Elanor - Jul 30, 2004 12:57 am (#1142 of 2923)

Two days ago, Mrs Librarian posted this : "it only strengthens my feeling that this prince is from the past, his heir is not going to be identified. His importance might stem from being the source of a legend...a legend on which hinges the unity or survival of magic or magical beings."

And I do agree with you Mrs Librarian ! After your post, I did some more research into what a « prince » may have been a thousand years ago, in the Early Middle Ages, if we presume that the source of the legend is to be found at the time of the Hogwarts founders. At that time, the title of prince wasn’t reserved for royal families. In fact, in Europe, from the Xth century, it was particularly used by dukes and the most powerful earls, who were governing huge provinces almost independently. At that time, kings were often less wealthy, and sometimes even less powerful, than their vassals.

What is more : have you ever looked at an historical map of England at that time ? If you do so, you will see not one, but several little kingdoms (at least 7 !). So, it was really a time where you could find a lot of princes ! And one of them could well have been connected with the founders ! I still think it is Gryffindor, but there might be other possibilities. In fact, if you look at Scotland a thousand years ago, you will find that it was named the Kingdom of ALBE... I know it is really farfetched to connect this with Albus DD, but still, it is funny, isn’t it ?

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The giant squid - Jul 30, 2004 4:17 am (#1143 of 2923)

I know, you all think I'm nuts...

vball man, the geniuses are always considered crazy...until they prove they're right. Wink

That said, I'm not sure where I stand on your RBL/HBP connection. Honestly, after over 1100 posts, I've forgotten who I think the HBP is anymore!

I'll just have a butterbeer & watch y'all from this corner over here...

--Mike

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Madame Librarian - Jul 30, 2004 6:17 am (#1144 of 2923)

Elanor, thanks for your vote of confidence and that nice bit of research. One further point--the word "prinicpality" itself! It often referred to a city-state locale that was ruled by it's own Duke, often called "Prince So-and-So" by his subjects, but not recognized at all, except as an enemy, by neighboring states. This political system lasted well into the Renaissance--Italy was a collection of principalities (think Medici), so was Austria/Hungary. The latter lasted even till the late 19th or early 20th century! JKR may be modeling a long-ago Wizarding World on the Muggle one.

And, Mike, I agree wholeheartedly with you--this discussion almost affects me like ones about time travel. My very brain cells ache from trying to follow. That's partly why I love this suppostition--that prince was a long time ago, it's nobody today, it's an old tale that everyone tries to figure out, and in the end, DD or someone will tell Harry (or he'll figure it out for himself) that it means absolutely nothing on what he does to save the world and himself. You have to live in the present and deal with things as they are. In other word, suck it up and do what's right!

Ciao. Barb

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 30, 2004 10:54 am (#1145 of 2923)

Madame Librarian the idea that J.K Rowling is modeling the wizarding world on the real world is an interesting point.

I would like to contribute to your statement on principalities by pointing out that both Monaco, and Liechtenstein are principalities. Also, several of the states that were incorporated in to Germany with formation German state in 1871 were principalities.

On another note I believe that the Half Blood Prince is someone from the past. Someone of whom Albus Dumbledore has intimate knowledge much like he possessed intimate knowledge of Nicolas Flamel.

Best regards, Nathan

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 30, 2004 7:52 pm (#1146 of 2923)

"Anyone can cook"
Thanks for the list, Gina. BUT where are the references? How can we be sure that the complier got all of them right?

That is why I hang out here at the Lexicon. :-)

Marcus

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Chemyst - Jul 30, 2004 8:19 pm (#1147 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Marcus, this is far from a perfect answer, certainly not up to preferred standards, but as I've read through Quick Quotes and visited JKR's website over the past couple months, I've seen most of the things on the list before, so it seems reasonably accurate. I hardly ever go to any other HP sites besides those two and the Lexicon, so my memory would not be tainted by outside sources.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 30, 2004 8:32 pm (#1148 of 2923)

Rebel without a cause.
Hey; this is just a wild idea I had on Hermione's thread. Throughout the books; the colour purple has been associated with Ron and Hermione. Hermione goes through the Purple fire in PS; Ron gets strangled by Purple Robes in OotP; and in the end, the Spell that hits Hermione in DoM has a Purple colour. The Purple colour is associated with royalty. In OotP, we were introduced to a new song "Weasley is our King". In a dream at GP12, Harry sees Ron and Hermione wearing crowns. Now, Ron is a pure-blood wizard; Hermione is a muggle-born witch. The name of the next book is Half Blood Prince. I think I see another Prophesy.

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Hollywand - Jul 30, 2004 9:04 pm (#1149 of 2923)

Gryffindor
Harry Potter and the Purple People Eater?

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MzWhizz123 - Jul 30, 2004 9:07 pm (#1150 of 2923)

Wow, Tornedo! I have goose bumps after reading your idea! I wonder, though, whether Ron and Hermione are just too young for that sort of prophesy to be in HBP. The whole color thread truly IS an interesting and curious issue. Good thinking!

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Post  Elanor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:08 pm

Sir Tornado - Jul 30, 2004 9:11 pm (#1151 of 2923)
Rebel without a cause.
It's really Ironic that the theory should come from a H/Hr shipper like me. But like I said; it was just a wild Idea.

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MzWhizz123 - Jul 30, 2004 9:18 pm (#1152 of 2923)

Being a "newbie" concerning finding the clues from previous books, I really thought that the HBP was someone that we might not yet know is half-blood. Maybe is it someone whose parentage has only been partially suggested.

Now, however, after reading the posts of those who think it is Gryffindor, I might have to change my view.

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Elanor - Jul 30, 2004 11:11 pm (#1153 of 2923)

Hi Tornado, nice idea concerning the purple color : it might be significant, but it is not really a royal color. Well, it was, at the time of the Roman Empire, it meant then authority. But, from the Celtic Kings, the royal color was white, it was also the color of the druids who kept an eye on them. From that time, white has always been the color of the kings, even if they sometimes added another one to it. For exemple, in France, it was the blue color, but still the royal flag was white. Ermine fur on their royal coats refers to that symbol too. The purple color was then reserved for religious dignitaries, and still is (for cardinals...).

By the way, the latin for white is albus...

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Madame Librarian - Jul 31, 2004 5:27 am (#1154 of 2923)

All true, Elanor, but if you ask the average person what color denotes kings and royalty, they'd answer royal blue or purple. JKR is a thorough researcher, but she doesn't try to re-invent classic literary symbols and conventions.

Tornado, nice bit of digging and theorizing there. I've always felt that the song "Weasley is Our King" and the crown business is either a huge clue or a huge red (purple?) herring. JKR wants us to notice, and repeats the theme to make sure we do, but is she telling us something important here, or chuckling when she reads our clever theories on this while we are completely oblivious to some other little thing that will be key? Oi.

Ciao. Barb

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Catherine - Jul 31, 2004 5:53 am (#1155 of 2923)

Canon Seeker
Just to chime in with Gina and Chemyst,

Most of the list that they quoted are things I remember reading that JKR said. I don't doubt the veracity of the list; it was nice to have things compiled all in one place and edited to remove the items that were not relevant.

Thanks, Chemyst and Gina.

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Cezar Salem - Jul 31, 2004 7:54 am (#1156 of 2923)

Actually tornado I had already posted a message back on post 323( when my head was sizzling with ideas,) Where I stated that I thought the HBP could be there son, ( there are also some other ideas there, and an especially crazy one referring to filch, like I said my head was exploding with ideas so dont judge me of just that one post lol)but since reading JKRs clues where she indicates towards Ron and Hermione being together( not my favorite idea, but I guess its not to me to decide, I like H/Hr)and after stating that there are no more traces of the HBP in CoS and that she had goose bumps in PoA movie( where they get more Ron and Hermione) ( I wish I could have watched next to her so I could have seen her face and know in wich parts she made weird faces :-D)I seem more lenient on Hr/R son being the HBP... The only thing that gets me hesitant is that it wouldn't be very JKRish to have a 16 year old boy and girl have a son... but then again we can expect everything form her cant we? Thinking about it better actually it evens starts to make more sense, the tittle never refers exactly to the real problem it the book, so the HBP could just be like the goblet of fire. It would just be something that is new to us and that is relatively big in the book, In fact I think it could even be amusing to her to have the title be about a baby and have everyone theorize about hagrids and dracos in life....

on the of note, what kind of baby would you get from a halfblood and a mudblood?

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Star Crossed - Jul 31, 2004 7:57 am (#1157 of 2923)

Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
A third blood?

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FCBarca - Jul 31, 2004 8:32 am (#1158 of 2923)

"The only thing that gets me hesitant is that it wouldn't be very JKRish to have a 16 year old boy and girl have a son... but then again we can expect everything form her cant we?"

JKR has already said there won't be any teenage pregnancies or stuff like that in the books: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Hollywand - Jul 31, 2004 9:48 am (#1159 of 2923)

Gryffindor
Perhaps Rowling is choosing "The Half Blood Prince" for its ironic reading. A prince can be crowned via blood lineage, but also on the good will of the people. The most beloved rulers are those that are able to win the hearts of their people, and the longest lasting. Rulers that are despotic can maintain order but rarely the enthusiatic cooperation of their subjects. I can see this as a subtext for the larger themes of the story. I think Rowling is too progressive to go after the strict blood lineage analogy. Anyone who would name the fate maker character of Fawkes the phoenix after Guy Fawkes has an ironic reading of royalty.

Harry's larger task is to unite the houses through leadership and loyalty, and Voldemort's to dominate the world through intimidation and fear (and pure blood, ironically). Happy birthday little Potter Guy and your mom, too...

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Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 11:34 am (#1160 of 2923)

Rebel without a cause.
The only thing that gets me hesitant is that it wouldn't be very JKRish to have a 16 year old boy and girl have a son. --Cezar Salem

JKR has already said there won't be any teenage pregnancies or stuff like that in the books: -- FCBarca

Actually I think there's going to be a Prophesy in HbP regarding the boy. It may be completed in say 10 years.

on the of note, what kind of baby would you get from a halfblood and a mudblood? --Cezar Salem

One-Fourth Blood? And please don't call Hermione or any one else "Mudblood". The proper term is "Muggle-born".

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FCBarca - Jul 31, 2004 11:52 am (#1161 of 2923)

I was replying to Cezar Salem, who said about them having the child in the next book.

"And please don't call Hermione or any one else "Mudblood"."

It's only a phrase from a book...

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Cezar Salem - Jul 31, 2004 11:55 am (#1162 of 2923)

I am SOOO sorry.. wich I could edit... you are SO right muggle born is much more proper... how rude of me, lucky me for not having rons wand and not having to puke slugs all day... *goes iron hands and slam my head on the closet*

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Kasse - Jul 31, 2004 6:57 pm (#1163 of 2923)

FCBarca I know it is a phrase from a book but I actually cringe when I hear people say mudblood, I do not know, it just feels wrong...........

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S.E. Jones - Jul 31, 2004 7:00 pm (#1164 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I think a half-blood and muggle-born would produce a half-blood. It would be seen in the eyes of wizards with so called "proper wizarding pride" as a child of a half-wizard/witch and a Muggle-born witch/wizard. Historically, though someone would technically be 1/4 of something, they would still be called a "halfbreed".....

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King Size - Aug 1, 2004 12:38 am (#1165 of 2923)

I expect big things from JKR, the HBP will shock everyone... as she continued to do to me, from book 1 - book 5. Only she knows right? She has been very busy writing for hardcore fans like you and I. I think I'll start a thread of predictions.... hmmm... -KS

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TomProffitt - Aug 1, 2004 4:39 am (#1166 of 2923)

Bullheaded empiricist
I saw an interview with Jo, or perhaps it was someone quoting one, where Jo said she used the Nazi model for determining what made a half-blood. One grandparent who is a muggle (or Jewish) and you are not pure.

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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 1, 2004 5:14 am (#1167 of 2923)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
TomProffitt - She didn't say she used the Nazi model for determining what made a half-blood. She said she discovered the Nazi model(at the Holocaust Museum)after developing the books and was surprised how closely her thinking had coincided with the Nazi model. Her quote is on her web site under the FAQ section on the books.

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TomProffitt - Aug 1, 2004 5:16 am (#1168 of 2923)

Bullheaded empiricist
In essence what I meant. The one grand-parent thing, was the information I was trying to convey,

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Joelle - Aug 1, 2004 3:08 pm (#1169 of 2923)

was it this thread that someone mentioned someone in hogwarts switching houses? do we know if there is any proof to back up this theory?

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 1, 2004 3:36 pm (#1170 of 2923)

So far as we know, this was a fan-site fabrication.

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timrew - Aug 1, 2004 3:48 pm (#1171 of 2923)

Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I think, as I've said before, that HBP will be a dark book, indeed!

There will be deaths, and at the end, Voldemort and the DEs will appear triumphant. It will be like the end of LOTR II, The Two Towers, 'Frodo was alive, but taken by the enemy'.

I think JKR is brave enough to take this stance, and upset some readers. The forces of good will win in book 7, but book 6, I think, will be a hard read for some.

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Richard !!!Reid - Aug 1, 2004 4:06 pm (#1172 of 2923)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] opens on the 13th of November at 9pm GTM
It's really hard to tell. I think JK has avoided such stories as LOTR and Star Wars. Instead, she has created her own story that is completely unique. I personally think that OotP will be the darkest of the series and Harry will calm down. However, Since Voldemort returned, Harry had become more and more angry - i'm assuming that is because of Voldemort's anger. That brings me onto a second point. Harry is actually starting to act like Voldemort - with his constant rage. It will be interesting to see if he can control it or if it has gone because of Sirius' death (perhaps the love emotion has filled the place of the anger).

Sorry if thats a bit confusing - it's become somewhat hard to write down all my thoughts.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 1, 2004 4:28 pm (#1173 of 2923)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Yep youdid a great job expressing your thoughts!

"Instead, she has created her own story that is completely unique."

"...with his constant rage". I think that has to do with the growing up process, in addition to the fact DD has kept him in the dark, ie: just like Sirius, locked in, to "protect him". A failing of one who loves...

Harry is one hurt, confused young man right now, but I think he has the strength of character to overcome that.

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S.E. Jones - Aug 1, 2004 5:08 pm (#1174 of 2923)

Let it snow!
I'm starting to think the HBP will be like the Goblet in GoF, just a catalyst to shove Harry into the story, not an actual focus of the story itself. Some theories I've heard to explain how this might happen are: it being something written on a gravestone in the graveyard near Hogwarts (maybe Harry finds something else in the graveyard that pushes him to find out more info and thus shoves the plot along?), the inscription on or name of a statue, someone Harry has to find info about (like with Nicholas Flamel, and his quest would push the story along)...

Can anyone come up with any more ideas? I'd like to hear them....

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Madame Librarian - Aug 1, 2004 5:42 pm (#1175 of 2923)

Here's one, Sarah--a bogus prophecy. I can see Harry letting Hermione and Ron in on the prophecy he learns of at the end of OoP. I can imagine Hermione launching herself with enthusiasm into an ardent study of seers and prophecies as a sort of penance for her prejudice toward poor Prof. Trelawney (this is Hermione's way of showing sincere regret of her insulting behavior--to undertake a serious research effort is for her the highest form of acknowledgement). There is a false trail laid somewhere that takes the Trio on a wild goose chase for this legendary prince who is mentioned obliquely in one of the so-called prophecies Hermione stumbles upon. Uh, oh...what if the whole thing is a set-up, a trap?

Ciao. Barb

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Chemyst - Aug 1, 2004 6:20 pm (#1176 of 2923)

"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I interpreted Tim's LOTR reference as a comparison of the pacing of the action, not of the storyline. When I first finished OP and was still thinking my own thoughts before mixing them with forum discussions, I thought book 6 would be a calm before a storm, a filling in of missing blanks, and a realigning of the "team members." I thought the "ultimate showdown" with the Big V would happen fairly early in school year 7 but would have a lot of fallout and would take most of spring term for the dust to settle. I wasn't consciously thinking LOTR, but since it has been mentioned, that pacing of the story would have a few similarities-- even after Sauron was defeated, there was still the scouring of the Shire.

It is all the discussion here at the Lexicon that has made me wobble from that a bit. Now I'm thinking that Sirius's death may well kick Harry from his former "reaction mode" into a grabbing of the bull by the horns. In OP, he had to be talked into starting the DA. I think those days are over. Even though the prophecy was told in a fashion that doom lies ahead: kill or be killed, I think the knowledge can also be liberating by causing priorities to drop into focus. It is my new guess that book 6 could take a cue from the Hogwarts motto and be subtitled "the tickling of the sleeping dragon." And like Sarah, I'm inclined to think that the HBP will be just a catalyst. One that gets Harry's fingers wiggling.

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Warty Harris - Aug 1, 2004 6:24 pm (#1177 of 2923)

The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'.

I wanted to point out that she doesn't say the Half Blood Prince is not in Chamber of Secrtes just that all traces of the Half Blood Prince storyline were taken out. If it is a person she may have just said there is no trace of the Half Blood Prince in 'Chamber'.

What does he discover?

I would suppose it has to be both in the movie and the book.

1. Riddle is Voldemort - I think not. :sheepish grin:

2. The whole True Gryffindor thing.

3. Choices

4. The clock

5. Moaning Myrtle

6. Aragog

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Land of the Shire - Aug 1, 2004 8:32 pm (#1178 of 2923)

I think Harry's "constant rage" has more to do with being a teenager than anything else. Surely his experiences (witnessing Cedric's death and the whole business at the end of GoF) compound his teenage hormone-induced self-defeating anger. Doesn't anyone else remember what it was like to be a teenager?

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Land of the Shire - Aug 1, 2004 8:35 pm (#1179 of 2923)

Chemyst writes: "even after Sauron was defeated, there was still the scouring of the Shire."

When I read this, I thought at first, Don't scour me!

I'm weird like that sometimes...

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vball man - Aug 1, 2004 9:18 pm (#1180 of 2923)

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Warty Harris, good list. I'd add the Scar Connection and the transferred powers. Harry discovered that in Chamber.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 1, 2004 9:37 pm (#1181 of 2923)

Harry, also discovered that there are others besides Albus Dumbledore who know about the fact that Tom Riddle and Voldemort are in fact one in the same.

"You told mee this had nothing to do with He-Who-Must Not-Be-Named, remember? Well --" "It was a clue, sir," said Dobby his eyes widening, as though this was obvious. "Was giving you a clue. The Dark Lord, before he changed his name, could be freely named, you see?"

Page 460 Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets printed by Thorndike Press.

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Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 1, 2004 10:25 pm (#1182 of 2923)

Edited by S.E. Jones Aug 1, 2004 10:29 pm
Good catch, Nathan! I never would have thought of that.

I am a teenager...17 to be exact. I don't have constant rage, but I don't have to deal with nearly the amount of stuff that plagues Harry.

Because Jo said "a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince,'" I am inclined to believe that the mudblood prejudice isn't the discovery. He already knows about it, and there is nothing left for him to "find out." Forgive me if this doesn't make sense, or if someone can think of what he could possibly find out.

->"Stuff", Larissa, "stuff"....<- SE Jones

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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 1, 2004 10:36 pm (#1183 of 2923)

Avatar courtesy of Gwen
LLL - He doesn't find out about the prejudice until CoS. In PS/SS mudblood, pure-blood and the like were never mentioned. He also finds the discrimination aganist the house elfs, giants and other "unusual" creatures. It effects him so much he feels compelled to free Dobby even with the trials Dobby put him through.

Also maybe you don't see the rage as a teenager now because you are living it. Just like Harry doesn't realize it's going on inside of him.

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Muggle Doctor - Aug 1, 2004 11:42 pm (#1184 of 2923)

I actually thought "Pillar of Storge" would have been good for one, and only one, reason.

"Storge" is one of the kinds of love defined by the Greeks Agape - unconditional love Eros - sexual love Philia - actually defined as the sort of nonsexual 'love' that occurs between two friends of any gender Storge - the love one has for one's family members

Given that love is the one thing Voldy is weak on (and may well lead to his defeat), given that it was the thing which led Harry to try & save Sirius (a father/brother figure, sort of a second son to James Potter's parents and therefore family by extension), given that JKR is fond of pulling stuff from all sorts of cultures... it wasn't a bad suggestion...

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remiden - Aug 2, 2004 1:17 am (#1185 of 2923)

"a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince,'"

I would also like to point out that this discovery does not have to have anything to do with the half blood prince, but rather it could be something entirely different that shows up in the book. Note that she said "in 'Prince'" not 'about 'prince.'"

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Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 2, 2004 7:50 am (#1186 of 2923)

My apologies, SE Jones.

MickeyCee, it is very amusing to me that you think I am enraged. Perhaps you are right, but I don't remember ever loosing my temper as badly as Harry. I think Harry is aware of his anger, but only once it's too late.

Forgive me if I was unclear. I did not mean to imply that he already knew about the prejudice in Chamber; I meant, by now (now that he is 16), he knows all about it. There doesn't seem to be anything left for him to "find out."

That is a very intriguing discovery, Muggle Doctor. I suppose the person who made it up didn't want it to be too out there; otherwise no one would believe it.

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Joelle - Jul 10, 2004 4:22 am (#1187 of 2923)

yes- it is a very common myth that all teens cannot control their emotions. however some adults are more emotional than others. everyone is different, and lets face it- the fact that harry is angry is a perfectly normal response for someone that has lost his parents, been neglected, expected to be more magical, etc etc. this kid has a lot of responsibilty on him. More responsibility than a lot of adults i know would be able to handle.

however as a teenager the flux of hormones going through your body can make you sightly irrational- but also fun. the angry teen isn't the mold, just a stereotype. A lot of teens are less angry with the world than they are percieved, instead they see an injustice and want to remedy it.

not unlike harry? or hermione with the house elves?

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riddikulus - Aug 2, 2004 9:56 am (#1188 of 2923)

I like that S.E.

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P Andy - Aug 2, 2004 10:25 am (#1189 of 2923)

I finished re-reading Chamber last night. As Ms. Rowling has informed us, something small Harry finds out in Chamber will play a huge part in HBP.

At the very end of Chamber, we find out that Percy has a girlfriend, a muggle-born named Penelope Clearwater. Since we do not know definitively if she and Percy stopped seeing each other (mentioned briefly in Goblet), AND that Percy has fallen out with his family, it MAY be possible that Percy and Penelope married (but no one would have known in Phoenix because that is exactly the kind of thing Percy wouldn’t tell anyone). And he had mentioned starting his OWN family.

We know Penelope is Muggle-born because she was frozen in the book AND she played a very, very small part in the movie (probably at J.K.’s insistence). Any child they have would be a half-blood but also related to one of the only pure-blood families left.

My theory is that the first Weasley grandchild is the Half Blood Prince.

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contess lillein asend - Aug 2, 2004 10:59 am (#1190 of 2923)

I cannot remember what thread I read it on, but someone was theorizing that Sanp was James illigitemate half brother. I started thinking about this.

Would that go along with King Arthur's seduction by his sister, Morgan LeFey, that produced the son, Modred (I probably spelled all those wrong, but I am 900 miles away from my desk). Modred caused King Arthur's death.

That would explain their hatred for one another. So I went on a search for a description of Snape's father. There is the memory in the OOTP in Seen adn Unforseen, where Snape is cowering in a corner while a hook-nosed man yells at his mother. So I go to the mirror of Erised in book 1 to seen how the Potter's are described. Same noses, but no description. I go to Snape's worst memory OOTP, to see if we get a description of James' nose. Still looking.

If this is right, would Snape be the half-blood prince?

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KWeldon - Aug 2, 2004 11:03 am (#1191 of 2923)

I don't know about your theory suggesting Snape as the half-blood prince, but when I read your theory I was reminded of the comment in Snape's Worst Memory of James (or was it Sirius?), saying that their problem was that "He exists." This might be consistent with a half-brother emotion.

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The Wandless Wizard - Aug 2, 2004 3:05 pm (#1192 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
P Andy, When I started reading you theory, my mind raced a little thinking it was a new possibility. Then when I thought about it, I realized two things. First, the HBP was originally supposed to be in CoS. That would mean Percy was 16. I have the same arguments against this that I have against Hermione and Ron having a kid in HBP. JKr would not have 16 year-olds having a kid in these books. Secondly, the "discovery" Harry makes in CoS has nothing to do with the character of the HBP. All traces of that character were removed. So while Penelope and Percy could be the discovery that plays a big part later, it won't have anything to do with the identity of the HBP.

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Ozymandias - Aug 2, 2004 3:26 pm (#1193 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
I agree with your argument about Percy & Penelope being too young to have a child, Wandless, but I don't think you're correct about the discovery having nothing to do with the HBP. JKR says that all traces of the HBP storyline were removed from CoS, not that the character himself was. The discovery doesn't necessarily have to do with the HBP, but this quote doesn't prohibit it. For example, Harry's discovery could be that he has the ability to pull Gryffindor's sword out of the hat and that he is a true Gryffindor. This could foreshadow his later discovery that Gryffindor is the HBP and that he, Harry, is his heir. The quote would still be accurate, since Gryffindor was in the background for CoS and didn't play a part in the story.

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The Wandless Wizard - Aug 2, 2004 3:42 pm (#1194 of 2923)

When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Aug 2, 2004 3:44 pm
The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'. JKR from JKR.com, emphasis mine.

I don't think JKR could make it much clearer than that. The link does not relate to the HBP. If you are suggesting that the pulling of the sword from the hat is the link, it cannot relate to the HBP character. Hence Gryyfindor cannot be the HBP. Same thing if the link is Percy's relationship with Penelope. That would not relate to the HBP character. The link between the books is the discovery. The link, therefore the discovery, does not relate to the HBP character.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 2, 2004 3:55 pm (#1195 of 2923)

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'." "The link, therefore the discovery, does not relate to the HBP character."

I think you are entirely correct, the HBP is not a "character", but a for-shadowed discovery that sets the thread of the book.

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Ozymandias - Aug 2, 2004 4:05 pm (#1196 of 2923)

Nothing beside remains...
I guess it depends how integral the HBP is to the plot of book 6. I can't imagine an important link that doesn't relate to the title character, unless the HBP turns out to be like the Goblet of Fire, barely there.

But in the meantime, I stand corrected. I must punish myself now...

I will not debate quotes from memory. I will not debate quotes from memory. I will not debate quotes from memory. I will not debate quotes from memory. I will not debate quotes from memory...

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Land of the Shire - Aug 2, 2004 10:37 pm (#1197 of 2923)

Joelle - I was certainly one of the stereotypically "angry" teens (with good reason, I try to convince myself) so I guess I look at Harry's anger from a different perspective.

I'm guessing you were one of the not-so-angry teenagers?

Granted, I'm only 20, so this isn't exactly ancient history for me...

I started reading HP shortly after book three came out, when Harry and I were roughly the same age. Now I'm 4 years older than Harry will be in book six, and it's a very strange to me.

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Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 11:49 pm (#1198 of 2923)

Rebel without a cause.
I'm 15; reading HP since 9. Still, Harry seems a *bit* strange to me. But I haven't fought LV four times so... I guess he would be a lot different in HbP. More mature. Less snappy.

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Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 3, 2004 5:13 am (#1199 of 2923)

In my psychology class, we did a section on teenagers. It said that teenagers like to find fault with the world (or with their parents). They think their parents are hipocrits because, for example, they supports animals' rights but aren't vegetarians. I never made the connection, but this is exactly what Hermione is doing. I just thought I'd throw that in.

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Joelle - Aug 3, 2004 6:09 am (#1200 of 2923)

On the Contrary, Land of the Shire, I was angry. At my parents, my teachers, my friends, etc, circumstances around my life that were out of my control (sound like anyone we know?) My problem was accepting that these were be control. Becuase I wanted to have that measure of adulthood that adults trick us into wanting. I wanted to be older more mature, I guess no one sees the gusts of responsibility that come with being older. then the whole angry thing started over with having to have this responsiblity that others didn't.

How is this relevant? Well Harry is an angry teen. Maybe not in the "I'm gonna rebel and counter everything you say" angry but more is the malcontent that he has with his life.

Every teen gets angry sometimes. Personally I think Harry had everyright to be angry, and if I recall reading the last book, I was quite angry with him.

-just a thought Joelle

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