Ghosts, Sorrow & the Veil

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Ghosts, Sorrow & the Veil

Post  Potteraholic on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:09 am

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. It was copied/saved by Lady Arabella and reformatted/reposted by Potteraholic. ~Potteraholic


me and my shadow 813 - Jan 21, 2007 10:07 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 28, 2007 10:02 am

There doesn't seem to be a Ghosts thread. Given the name of the 7th book, the DoM Veil, and other clues, a discussion here might focus on Ghosts, their plight and the Veil as a potential for their moving on.

A quote from Nearly Headless Nick:

"Wizards can leave an imprint of themselves upon the earth, to walk palely where their living selves once trod ... I was afraid of death. I chose to remain behind. I sometimes wonder whether I oughtn't have ... Well, that is neither here nor there ... In fact, I am neither here nor there..." - OoP chapter 38

It seems Nick and other ghosts are sorrowful in their situation. A few other examples of Sorrow amongst the ghosts are:

- "My late lamented lords, ladies, and gentlemen..." (from Nick's Deathday Party)

- "She never found true love as she never found a man up to her standards." (speaking of the Grey Lady)

From the Lexicon: Nick indicated that wizards study the matter in the Department of Mysteries, which may be a reference to the veiled archway Harry saw there. (OP35)

On that note, I'd like to add a thought about the idea of the Veil:

~when faced with a hole in the curtain, an entity’s eyes may well peer for the first time through the window beyond~

Is there hope for these Ghosts going through the Veil? Would a courageous person on the other side (like Sirius, James, Lily, DD) be able to guide them through? Could this happen in book 7?


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Ghosts, Sorrow & the Veil (posts #1 - #50)

Post  Potteraholic on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:10 am

haymoni - Jan 22, 2007 9:28 am (#1 of 86)

Interesting question.

One would think that this would have been tried - if indeed there was a ghost that truly wanted to change their mind and "cross over".

Perhaps the reasons they fear death are still there, so they CAN'T cross over.

But then you would think that they could be used to communicate with the dead - they could slip through the Veil, have a little chat and come back to report.




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 22, 2007 5:18 pm (#2 of 86)

It seems silly to me now, but it hadn't occur to me that most of the ghosts are sad. They seem to remain in "limbo" from the trauma of a sudden death or perhaps still holding onto something/someone from their life. Sir Nicholas had a traumatic death, being Nearly Headless sounds much more traumatic than the Headless bunch. The Grey Lady seems to have a sorrowful tale, having never found love and she was so young when she passed on. Then there are (from Lexicon list): *gloomy* nuns, *Wailing* Widow, and of course *Moaning* Myrtle. The only happy ghost seems to be the Friar, perhaps since he is a spiritual figure (pun intended) he remains for another reason? Sir Nicholas's quote seems to imply he might want to move on. Perhaps, with the Deathly Hallows possibly being those that passed on but are courageous, there could be something going on regarding *the next great adventure*.

I'm not trying to theorise anything in particular, I was just looking for a ghost thread and couldn't find one, so thought the topic would make an interesting discussion.




painting sheila - Jan 22, 2007 7:09 pm (#3 of 86)

Could Deathly Hallows be a time of the year/a ceremony when ghost can choose to pass through the veil?

If so, why would this be important? or crucial?




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 22, 2007 8:11 pm (#4 of 86)

painting sheila, probably none of it is important or crucial to DH regarding the main plot point. But I like your idea - perhaps on Halloween something could occur with the Veil and ghost(s).

I find it interesting that so far the characters that have died are from Gryffindor (except Cedric, and I'm sure I'm overlooking someone). They all are on the other side of the Veil. They all are courageous so might be more inclined to step closer to the "opening" of the Veil than other souls. Unfortunately, Halloween isn't mentioned by JKR as notorious for when the veil between worlds is the thinnest.

I feel the House Ghosts will have a role to play in DH, and perhaps Harry will help them to evolve into the next world. It will be interesting if Rowena Ravenclaw turns out to be a ghost - the Grey Lady - but it's speculation only.

(I've felt the Deathly Hallows could be the Founders, but I feel it more likely to be referring to the horcruxes).




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 22, 2007 10:27 pm (#5 of 86)

Sorry, got sidetracked. haymoni wrote - But then you would think that they could be used to communicate with the dead - they could slip through the Veil, have a little chat and come back to report.

I like this idea, given Sir Nick's comment, "In fact, I am neither here nor there...". We know the ghosts can communicate with the living although they cannot eat, drink, etc.. Perhaps they can communicate with the dead, too... or did Sir Nick tell Harry they cannot?




painting sheila - Jan 23, 2007 6:37 am (#6 of 86)

Let's see . . .what stages of being dead could there be?

1. Dead and happy with your life here so you "move on".

2. Dead and not happy with your life decide to stay here to "finish".

3. Dead and some where in between - wants to move on but needs just one more thing done - hangs in limbo.

Obviously the veil isn't the only way into the spirit world. Cedric, Harry's parents, etc have all died with out having to use the veil.

So WHAT is the veil? Why have it? You don't need it to die - so what would you need it for? Is it a different kind of death? Is it to communicate? Is it a ritual of some sort - Deathly Hallows?

Does it lead some where other than the "great beyond"? Maybe ghost, when they decide the should have moved on, can make that choice. It's not here or there but some where in between.

Just rambling -




Choices - Jan 23, 2007 9:33 am (#7 of 86)

Sheila, those are questions I have pondered about the veil myself. Alas, I have come up with no answers, but they are certainly interesting to think about. I hope JKR will clue us in on just how the veil works and what its significance is in this series.




T Vrana - Jan 23, 2007 9:51 am (#8 of 86)

A little off track, but isn't it odd that Nearly Headless Nick, the Gryffindor Ghost, the house known for bravery, was afraid to die?




Choices - Jan 23, 2007 10:04 am (#9 of 86)

I don't think being brave means you are not fearful of things, but you face those things head on - that is where the bravery comes in. You don't let your fears conquer you. Look at Ron - he was deathly afraid of the spiders, but his bravery allowed him to be able to face them with Harry.




T Vrana - Jan 23, 2007 10:15 am (#10 of 86)

Agreed, but Nick didn't face death head on (well, he did, 'nearly' headless and all, ), he let his fear conquer him.




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 23, 2007 2:07 pm (#11 of 86)

I suppose having Sir Nick as Gryffindor's ghost displays the various degrees of bravery. Perhaps part of why he became a ghost was because of how ashamed he was of the way he died, not as a Brave Knight should. It could be Nick's self-pity created the sadness which prevented him from moving on.

So WHAT is the veil? Why have it? You don't need it to die - so what would you need it for? Is it a different kind of death? Is it to communicate? Is it a ritual of some sort - Deathly Hallows? - painting sheila

I feel the Veil is a *man-made* version of the entrance to the tunnel/hallway of the afterlife. It is ancient, but it could be that a wizard discovered this point in space where the veil was the thinnest and thus constructed an archway. Then they began to study it and communicate with the other side, etc.

There is a theory on DH thread that Deathly Hallows refers to hallways. Could be a connection there?




Luna Logic - Jan 23, 2007 3:29 pm (#12 of 86)

Reading the question and the first thoughts about it, I cut painting sheila questions So WHAT is the veil? Why have it? in two parts :

Is it to communicate? yes, why not. See answers above. Very useful (if used)

Is it a different kind of death? Is it a ritual of some sort - Deathly Hallows?

There, my answer would be: Yes, why not a ritual for ghosts? The Veil may be needed in a Wizard World, because ghosts are existing in this world. And they may need "to die". The Veil passage would be for them.




timrew - Jan 23, 2007 3:39 pm (#13 of 86)

Or it could be for 'execution' purposes. I mean, why not?

The wizard community must have a need to execute 'Lord Voldemort' types every now and then.............




haymoni - Jan 23, 2007 3:57 pm (#14 of 86)

I thought it was an old Execution Room, but JKR said no - the Department of Mysteries was for studying things.

But where did the Veil come from? It's like one of those Time-Travel things in that episode of Star Trek with the Library.

Odd, Mr. Spock, very odd.




Thom Matheson - Jan 23, 2007 6:46 pm (#15 of 86)

"Odd" is Illogical for you Muggles, my dear women. I like Tim's idea. Forget the hang 'em from the highest tree, just push them through the rug.




painting sheila - Jan 23, 2007 10:13 pm (#16 of 86)

But why push when you can point - your wand that is.

There HAS to be something there!

Re-reading OoP where the kids see the veil for the first time, they are drawn to it - mesmerized. Harry and Ron (I think). . . . but Hermione wasn't bothered. Maybe she wasn't close enough to it.

What would be there that would draw them in - hypnotize them almost? Make them want to touch it or push through it?

Bella knew what it was and Sirius knew if we go by the looks on their faces.

Is it a bad place? A Spirit Prison so to speak. Is that what happens to your soul when a Dementor sucks it out?




Thom Matheson - Jan 23, 2007 10:44 pm (#17 of 86)

Wasn't it Luna? If she and Harry were the ones to hear it, could it be like the Thestrals?




T Vrana - Jan 24, 2007 10:07 am (#18 of 86)

I think it was Luna and I think it is like thestrals in that they both lost a parent(s) and are likely drawn to where their parents are.

I don't think it is where your soul goes if a Dementor sucks out your soul. I think those souls stay with the Dementor. Just my opinion, no canon, of course.




haymoni - Jan 24, 2007 10:27 am (#19 of 86)

Neville could see the Thestrals, couldn't he?

Was it Neville that told Harry to get away from the Veil?




Steve Newton - Jan 24, 2007 10:28 am (#20 of 86)

Someone a while back suggested that the ones attracted to the Veil were the same ones who were squirted by Neville's Mimbulus Mimbletonia. There is something there.




Thom Matheson - Jan 24, 2007 10:49 am (#21 of 86)

Not just parents T, but the fact that they have seen death is what allows them to see thestrals. I think that that holds true for the veil.




T Vrana - Jan 24, 2007 10:55 am (#22 of 86)

Thom- Sorry, I wasn't clear. I realize it is seeing death that allows them to see the thestrals, and maybe seeing death is also what draws them to the veil. I like the thestral analogy, in that only those who saw death could see them, I was thinking only those who lost loved ones would be drawn. I like the idea that it is their personal losses which drew them to where their lost loved ones are.

Could Neville see thestrals? But was not drawn to the veil? I can't recall. That would support the idea that it is the lost loved ones that draw you closer.




Thom Matheson - Jan 24, 2007 10:58 am (#23 of 86)

He saw the thestrals, I don't remember the veil? Can you believe it, I had to go to work this afternoon. Of all the gaul. Wishy washy buyers and sellers.




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 24, 2007 2:59 pm (#24 of 86)

Steve, I found the post to which you were referring. I quite like it. I'd also add that the descriptions also seem to fit what I was saying about ghosts and their sadness/shame/fear of death, etc. But I feel it is also interesting about the night at the DoM. Following is the old post by RoseMorninStar:

"I realize someone mentioned this before, but I thought this description was interesting and fit in so well with Neville:

Mimbulus is used as a type remedy for people who tend to be nervous, timid and shy generally. Sometimes people of this type may blush easily or stammer, and they will usually avoid social occasions and any event where they will be in the limelight. Mimbulus is the remedy to encourage the quiet courage and strength that lies hidden in such people, so that they can face the everyday trials of life with steadfastness.

Fear of worldly things, illness, pain, accidents, poverty, of dark, of being alone, of misfortune. The fears of everyday life. These people quietly and secretly bear their dread, they do not freely speak of it to others.

While I was perusing the internet on this subject I found another interesting thought connected with Mimbulus/stinksap. One person was wondering what possible connections there were to this plant that might be of importance in book 7. One thing they came up with-and it is a 'weak' but interesting connection-is that Luna, Neville, Harry, and Ginny had been hit with the stinksap. Ron & Hermione had not come in contact with it. In the department of Mysteries in the room with the arch/curtain Luna, Harry, Neville and Ginny are affected by it/hear whispering, Ron and Hermione do not." - RoseMorninStar from old Mimb. Min. thread

Edit: just throwing an idea out there -- could the people behind the Veil be attracted to the sap from the Mimb. Min.? If the Veil is a place where ghost-like people remain (not moving beyond the entryway) perhaps they desire the Herb for the above healing properties so they can move on... obviously, as stated in earlier post, ghosts cannot drink or eat, but the aroma might have caused them to draw Harry, Luna, etc. closer. Any thoughts?




timrew - Jan 24, 2007 3:35 pm (#25 of 86)

It's a veil, Jim, but not as we know it............




Laura W - Jan 24, 2007 4:42 pm (#26 of 86)

"Was it Neville that told Harry to get away from the Veil?" (haymoni)

Nope, it was Hermione. (P.682-683, Raincoast)

Laura




MickeyCee3948 - Jan 24, 2007 6:29 pm (#27 of 86)

It could be as simple as the white light a lot of people mention seeing from near death experiences. They feel drawn to the light. If you have lost some one dear maybe you feel drawn to the veil in the same way.

But it has too have more importance than just the method used to take Sirius away from Harry. JK wouldn't put that kind of red herring out there in my opinion.

Mickey




painting sheila - Jan 24, 2007 7:12 pm (#28 of 86)

The fact that it was a "veil" makes me think it must work both ways - coming and going.

It wasn't a door that could be shut, or locked, or didn't have a handle on one side so it could only be opened from the other side.

It was a veil - something thin, something that could move and float in both directions depending on the movement around it. It seemed to move on its accord - gently blowing.

It looked the same on both sides of the dais.

It was torn and tattered much like the Sorting Hat. It looked ancient as did the stones in the archway above it.

I think it is very symbolic in all its aspects. It's thin. It's the same on both sides. It's moving. It's old. It's tattered.

Why would it need to be studied in the DoM if it was old. Wouldn't wizards before have known what it was and how to use it? Are they trying to test it to see if it can be used in reverse?

I am now more confused that ever. Please sort this out for me - will you?

She




T Vrana - Jan 24, 2007 7:17 pm (#29 of 86)

I think a door would be too solid. The veil represents, among other things, how fragile life is, and how easily we can go from living to dead. Why study it? With all they know, death is still a mystery, the next great adventure, but what kind of adventure? Even ghosts don't know.




painting sheila - Jan 24, 2007 7:32 pm (#30 of 86)

Good points T Vrana!




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 24, 2007 8:07 pm (#31 of 86)

Why would it need to be studied in the DoM if it was old. Wouldn't wizards before have known what it was and how to use it? Are they trying to test it to see if it can be used in reverse? - painting sheila

Your quote above illustrates part of why I feel it is a wizard-made entrance to the afterlife. As you said in a prior post, sheila, we know Cedric, James, Lily, DD, and countless other witches and wizards have died without passing through this particular Veil. This says to me the Veil/archway is a construction of what naturally occurs at death in order for them to study it. I don't mean to imply Sirius's death wasn't real. I believe he died *because* he fell through the Veil. But I believe the voices on the other side did *not* fall through the Veil. I believe the MoM has been trying to communicate with the dead via this constructed *doorway* or portal, as it were.

This is why I feel there will be a connection between ghosts and using the Veil, since "neither here nor there" implies existing on a margin, which is what an archway symbolises to me.

Edit: I should add to this in order to be clear - I feel the ghosts could have an opportunity to walk through the Veil and move on if they so choose, which is impossible for them otherwise I'd think.

I do agree with T Vrana and others that those who can hear the voices might have something to do with thestral-type experiences.




Luna Logic - Jan 25, 2007 8:00 am (#32 of 86)

Edited by Jan 25, 2007 8:05 am

Reading all the arguments I agree with the summary of me and my shadows : I believe the voices on the other side did *not* fall through the Veil. I believe the MoM has been trying to communicate with the dead via this constructed *doorway* or portal, as it were.

In my mind all the Department of Mysteries is a transposition in the Wizard World of the scientific world : laboratories, research... : experiments are made but not without thinking...

No idea of punishment, which belongs in my thought to the Magical Justice Department (sorry I have forgotten the "real" name...)

A veil, what for ? to experiment "both ways - coming and going"(painting sheila) ? Or to see through it - not come and go, just seeing ? or to hear through it?

But the ghosts and the sorrow? And the voices? And the Mimbulus ? (waiting for your next ideas...)




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 25, 2007 5:31 pm (#33 of 86)

Luna Logic, hello. Your English is very good. "Transposition"? I had to look that one up on Wikipedia and I'm still not sure what it means.

Thanks for your post. It does seem that, since the Dept. of Mysteries is all about *studying*, the great wizards of old would have devised a way to examine and try to understand death. To me, the Wizarding World is, by it's nature, more inclined to want to understand the *paranormal*. So I agree when you say this is their version of a laboratory. And since they understand the magical nature of the world, I believe they are capable of constructing such a Veil for research purposes.

Regarding ghosts, this is a quote from the Lexicon: "Only wizards can become ghosts, and then only if they choose that path before they die. They enter a state somewhere between living and dead."

If a wizard chooses to become a ghost rather than go into the "next great adventure", I think it is a permanent choice. If it is made before death, they might change their mind after hundreds of years floating about. No wonder most of the ghosts are sad (Wailing Widow, Moaning Myrtle, etc.) They cannot move on, they are stuck, and, it seems, Sir Nicholas might regret his choice. I am wondering if the Veil could offer a entrance for him and other ghosts who are ready to move on.




haymoni - Jan 25, 2007 5:38 pm (#34 of 86)

I have visions of wizards from the past sticking their arms into the Veil, with large ropes tied around their waists to keep them from falling through.

"Put your right hand in, put your right hand out..."




T Vrana - Jan 25, 2007 6:16 pm (#35 of 86)

m & m shadow- I think it is a permanent choice.

I agree.

Haymoni-




Thom Matheson - Jan 25, 2007 9:31 pm (#36 of 86)

Haymoni, don't you mean "put your right hand in, pull your right stump out"?




haymoni - Jan 26, 2007 6:17 am (#37 of 86)

Who knows, Thom???




Thom Matheson - Jan 26, 2007 7:05 am (#38 of 86)

I know I was being tongue and cheek, but do you go in and the rest of you follows, gets drawn in? Or, could you stop from being pulled all the way in. That's my issue with the veil. Makes me think more like a portal and the veil is the jump point, just like Kings Cross is for the train to school.




haymoni - Jan 26, 2007 7:30 am (#39 of 86)

Where did they find The Veil in the first place? How did they move it? Did a wizard create it?

Jo has some "splain'in" to do.




Luna Logic - Jan 26, 2007 1:57 pm (#40 of 86)

Sorry for my "transposition", me and my shadows (and everybody)... Sometimes I let myself go (back to my French self). (I really must buy a dictionary because the only one at home is for the moment an old Oxford Dictionary, not very useful to explain "non English" words...)

When you say "this is their version of a laboratory" , it is the idea of "transposition": a version of Science. In my view, the department of mysteries is very old, and in that old time, wizards made the Veil, on a natural "door" between the world of life and the world of death.

Now for the ghosts : they are sad, why ? Could it be a double sadness, first for their death, not really accepted? and also for their actual ghost "existence", not quite satisfying?




MickeyCee3948 - Jan 26, 2007 2:06 pm (#41 of 86)

Since the room seems to be in the form of an amphitheater. Could it be used in some way as a teaching tool for certain wizards to ask questions and have someone on the other side respond?

Mickey




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 26, 2007 2:38 pm (#42 of 86)

MickeyCee - I agree, the amphitheatre aspect does imply there is something to either see or hear or speak to. Or do they just sit around and stare at the tattered Veil for hours on end?

Luna Logic - I was complimenting your English. I don't normally use four-syllable words... impressive.

Regarding why the ghosts are sad, I posted earlier that it might be their death was traumatic and they couldn't move on (Sir Nick and the Headless group probably had traumatic experiences just before and at death, the Bloody Baron sounds like he was killed rather violently, Moaning Myrtle died traumatically and suddenly). Others, it seems, were mourning before they died so was grief a factor in killing them? (the Wailing Widow, the Grey Lady is said to have died very young and never found true love).

Since ghosts tend to "haunt" places, it might be they have unfinished business with something at the location they haunt. Moaning Myrtle haunts the toilet in which she died (although I believe she was ordered to do this). So is it possible that one day Moaning Myrtle will be done moaning and want to move on to the next world? It seems Sir Nick is reconsidering his choice.

I like the idea that the Veil could give them a second chance. Otherwise, how could they move on? If they are neither living nor dead, it seems they might have a role in communicating with those behind the Veil and, as a reward for their deed, they can walk through it and live (die) happily ever after. I am speculating in the context that Harry and the Love Theme would alter the status quo that has ruled over things for hundreds of years.




Choices - Jan 26, 2007 6:01 pm (#43 of 86)

Maybe the veil is the wizard version of John Edward. (John Edward is a famous American "medium" who claims to contact the dead on his TV show called Crossing Over. He also travels the world doing seminars on the subject.) Perhaps the MOM is studying a way to communicate with wizards who have crossed over.




journeymom - Jan 26, 2007 6:45 pm (#44 of 86)

Put your right hand, take your burned, blackened, shriveled hand out...




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 26, 2007 7:38 pm (#45 of 86)

Choices, I am wondering about this very thing, only if ghosts could provide such a "medium". By their very definition on the Lex, it seems they could be. It is possible, that although Nick says "I chose to remain behind" it doesn't mean he cannot contact those beyond the Veil easier than the living. I cannot recall Sir Nick's response to Harry regarding contacting Sirius... was Harry simply asking if he, Harry, could contact Sirius or if Nick could?

journeymom's hand comment (although funny) is interesting because I do wonder if living wizards cannot penetrate the Veil but ghosts could. DD's hand is dead because it touched a curse. But a ghost's hand wouldn't react in the same way.

I suppose all this odd speculation is about how Harry will utilise the Veil in book 7 and if those beyond the Veil, the ghosts, and others within the DoM will have a role in assisting Harry in the final conflict (which I believe will occur in DoM).




Thom Matheson - Jan 26, 2007 8:43 pm (#46 of 86)

Journeymom, see how it fits so nicely. Well stated. (walks away shaking all about).




Solitaire - Jan 28, 2007 9:59 am (#47 of 86)

The whole idea of the Veil suggests mystery and separation. It is not a new idea. Women who entered the convent used to be said to "take the veil." The expression "beyond the veil" has been used to refer to death, but it and "behind the veil" are also used in reference to women who remain veiled in Muslim societies.

In the Temple in Jerusalem, a veil separated the Holy of Holies where God dwelt from the rest of the Temple where men dwelt. Only priests could enter the veiled area. When Christ died, the veil was torn from top to bottom, indicating that men no longer needed a priest to intercede for them but could enter into God's presence themselves.

When I consider the Veil in the DoM, I think of witches and wizards who died untimely deaths--Luna's mom, the Potters, Sirius. Are theirs the voices heard by Harry and the others? Is there some task on this side of the veil that remains undone--a task which must be completed before these people can move on from behind the veil "to the next great adventure"? If it were not for Luna, I would think that those behind the veil may have died sacrificial deaths, trying to protect someone ... as the Potters and Sirius did. Just speculating ...

Solitaire




me and my shadow 813 - Jan 28, 2007 3:37 pm (#48 of 86)

Is there some task on this side of the veil that remains undone--a task which must be completed before these people can move on from behind the veil "to the next great adventure"? - Solitaire

Great post. Thanks, Solitaire. The above quote has me thinking about a coming connection between the Unspeakables (or whoever works in this room at DoM), Harry, those behind the Veil and possibly ghosts who are also hovering between worlds. Untimely death is definitely something that could come up later, as we have seen many of these, and as I've mentioned the ghosts seem to be hanging on to this world for a reason which might be able to get resolved so they can move on.

Another topic is the Bloody Baron. I wonder if he has been spying for Vold all this time. We don't know anything about him. Yet Sir Nicholas told Harry at some point in HBP that the Bloody Baron was hanging around the Tower, and that he knew when DD returned to the castle. Any thoughts?




Laura W - Jan 28, 2007 6:06 pm (#49 of 86)

The incident you are referring to occurred when Harry managed to get Sluggy's memory. He got back to the Gryffindor common room after midnight, which the Fat Lady wasn't too happy about. She told Harry to take this up with Dumbledore and he replied that he would but that DD was away. Nearly-Headless Nick corrected him saying that DD had returned to the school an hour ago (" 'I had it from the Bloody Baron, who saw him arrive,' said Nick.").

When Harry asked where the Headmaster was, Nick misunderstood and told the boy where the Bloody Baron was ("Oh, groaning and clanking up on the Astronomy Tower, it's a favourite pastime of his - ").

I just think that the Slytherin ghost really does like to hang out on the tallest tower after midnight making scary noises, which is why he would be in a good position to see what is going on all over the grounds late at night. Nothing more than that. JM2K though.

Nonetheless, he must be pretty frightening, as he is the only one Peeves is scared of.

Laura




Solitaire - Jan 28, 2007 6:59 pm (#50 of 86)

Thanks, Shadow. Interesting point about the ghosts. I've always thought of them as being loyal to Dumbledore, but I suppose the Baron could be a traitor ghost. If the tower is a favorite haunt of his, he would certainly know who came and went from there. Would he have told Draco that Dumbledore usually returned to the castle from the tower ... if indeed he did? It's something to consider ...

Solitaire
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Ghosts, Sorrow & the Veil (posts #51 - #86)

Post  Potteraholic on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:12 am

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 28, 2007 8:08 pm (#51 of 86)

If we are to assume that Dumbledore would lower the protection on Hogwarts when returning then why not just return to his office. If he left the protection in place then he would have had to return by the front gate in which case your theory about the Baron could still be correct as he would be able to see him from the tower. I don't think that Dumbledore used the tower though as his usual landing zone.

Mickey




T Vrana - Jan 29, 2007 9:34 am (#52 of 86)

Nick says "I chose to remain behind" it doesn't mean he cannot contact those beyond the Veil easier than the living. I cannot recall Sir Nick's response to Harry regarding contacting Sirius

I don't think ghosts can contact those beyond the veil, or if they can, Nick has chosen not to as he can only answer Harry's questions about death with "I don't know." I would think if they could communicate and eventually change their mind, Nick would have at least tried to find out more. He certainly doesn't seem very happy with his decision.

I think once a ghost, always a ghost. Choices again.




journeymom - Jan 29, 2007 9:45 am (#53 of 86)

Perhaps I just want to think the best of everybody, but I think the Bloody Baron will be a good guy. He's really old, right? (Or, has been a ghost for a long time.) SOMEBODY in Slytherin House needs to be loyal to Slytherin, not Voldemort. I hope Slughorn is one such person, and the Baron as well.




Steve Newton - Jan 29, 2007 10:05 am (#54 of 86)

I occasionally wonder if the Bloody Baron is the ghost of Slytherin. Only in my weaker moments, though.




Choices - Jan 29, 2007 10:51 am (#55 of 86)

Baron von Slytherin - has a nice ring to it. LOL




painting sheila - Jan 29, 2007 8:07 pm (#56 of 86)

What if the MoM was built on the site of ancient magic? and the veil is the portal that was there already?

It is described as being very old and falling apart - what happens if it is destroyed?

I think we need to think BIG as far as the veil is concerned. It played a big part in OoP and Jo will tie it in some how.

Could it be a place to receive instruction?

I have always thought DD had put his hand through and that is why it was shriveled up and dead looking. What was he reaching for?




MickeyCee3948 - Jan 30, 2007 10:44 am (#57 of 86)

or what was he passing through to the other side?

Mickey




Luna Logic - Jan 30, 2007 11:22 am (#58 of 86)

painting sheila, yes, "a place to receive instruction" would be well suited with the amphitheater. So, instruction about death : what and why ? And by who ? (I picture a "teacher", near the Veil, speaking then pointing his wand to show or to make see.... what?

Another idea, (a crazy one) when reading your ‘ we need to think BIG as far as the veil is concerned’ and your ‘ I have always thought DD had put his hand through and that is why it was shriveled up and dead looking. What was he reaching for?’

My crazy idea : if we reverse the gesture, (as MickeyCee proposes too) we could imagine DD having to "pass" something through the Veil : to release something ... the Gaunt's ring.. the part of soul in the ring. burning his hand in the process of "burning" that part of soul behind the Veil. Stop, crazy theory!




painting sheila - Jan 31, 2007 5:51 am (#59 of 86)

OH! I like the idea of releasing the trapped part of LV's spirit on the other side of the veil.

Did he need help in doing it?

Harry used the fang of the Basilisk - a creature controlled by Tom Riddle to kill that part of the spirit. What if you can't just "destroy" the object but is has to be destroyed with something belonging to the person whose soul lives in the object?

Does that part of the soul "live"?

Teaching about death - or how to conquer it? Could that be why the veil is secure in the Mom. Maybe that is the place Tom was taught how to conquer death.




sstabeler - Jan 31, 2007 9:32 am (#60 of 86)

Personally, I think you need to destroy the piece of soul as you would a human, i.e. it was remaining poison on the fang that killed the riddle horcrux, and an AK would destroy any horcrux ( i wonder what the ministry would think of AK'ing a horcrux. obviously for Nagini, it can be passed off as trying to kill the animal, but the inanimate objects? plus, an AK would go some way to explaining the damage to the ring.)




haymoni - Jan 31, 2007 10:15 am (#61 of 86)

I'm thinking that there is a reason that Bill Weasley is a Curse-Breaker. He could have been an Auror, but I think Jo has saved him to teach Harry what to do once he actually finds a Horcrux.




juliebug - Jan 31, 2007 10:16 am (#62 of 86)

Ooh, I like that idea. Nice one Haymoni




Choices - Jan 31, 2007 11:14 am (#63 of 86)

I really like the idea of Dumbledore passing something through the veil - something like a Horcrux - but I can't help but ask why? Why not just destroy that soul piece like the other (diary)? If it was released behind the veil, could it exist or function independent of the rest of Voldemort's soul? I just don't see what the point/importance would be of going to the trouble (loss of hand) to place that one soul bit behind the veil.




sstabeler - Jan 31, 2007 11:29 am (#64 of 86)

if DD passed the ring through the veil, why didn't the ministry find out about the hocruxes? they aren't stupid, and i bet at least some people there know about horcruxes.




painting sheila - Jan 31, 2007 12:01 pm (#65 of 86)

Maybe DD needed something that some one on the other side of the veil had. A clue to another Horcrux - verification that the ring was really "the ring"?

What if Tom's mom has been helping.

Maybe Sirius had something on his person when he went through the veil that DD needed.




MickeyCee3948 - Jan 31, 2007 12:04 pm (#66 of 86)

Yeah, like possibly Sirius's two-way mirror, methinks.

Mickey




sstabeler - Jan 31, 2007 12:24 pm (#67 of 86)

I get the impression Sirius didn't have his mirror on hm. as for tom's mum helping, i can imagine that happening, as some sort of penance, maybe? i sill don't know how the ministry didn't realise f DD was in the ministry, that DD had a Horcrux with him.




painting sheila - Jan 31, 2007 12:42 pm (#68 of 86)

At the time DD went into the ministry - I don't think he needed to announce him self - did MoM know about the horcruxes?

I don't think it is the mirror. Something smaller.

If some one died wearing the horcrux - a necklace perhaps - is that a horcrux that still lives. If it lives would it need to be brought back on this side of the veil to be destroyed?




sstabeler - Jan 31, 2007 1:22 pm (#69 of 86)

I thought visitors had to announce themselves to the visitor's entrance. and as the war was ongoing, I bet there were even more precautions against unwanted visitors, I bet the search is more intensive. DD surely couldn't have slipped the horcrux by easily, could he? a secrecy sensor would have picked up the soul part, if not any lingering traces of the spell that put it there. as for horcruxes worn by dead people- if they go through the veil, I think it is destroyed with them, but if they don't, i bet the horcrux is just on the body of the person, intact.




Choices - Jan 31, 2007 5:24 pm (#70 of 86)

Dumbledore is not a visitor - he is head of the Wizengamot, the court that judges all wizard problems, crimes, misdemeanors, etc. I think you could say Dumbledore works there.




painting sheila - Jan 31, 2007 8:30 pm (#71 of 86)

Could you pass something you were wearing back through the veil to this side?




Luna Logic - Feb 1, 2007 2:14 am (#72 of 86)

Choices : yes I agree, Dumbledore is not an ordinary visitor in MoM. He comes and goes as he wants.

painting sheila : If we imagine some burning in the operation of passing behind the Veil, I think we have to imagine also some transformation in the opposite operation. But what sort of ? (What is the opposite of burning?)




haymoni - Feb 1, 2007 6:35 am (#73 of 86)

But what's so "thrilling" about shoving your hand through the Veil?

It seems as though there should be a bit more to this tale than that.




painting sheila - Feb 1, 2007 7:16 am (#74 of 86)

The thrill would be in what DD would value enough to try and pass it one way or the other.

OR!! Maybe he was tortured - maybe his hand was forced through the veil some how as a warning. . . nah - nevermind.




T Vrana - Feb 1, 2007 7:40 am (#75 of 86)

I thought DD was pretty clear that he sustained his injury from the curse put on the ring horcrux to protect it. That was why he needed Snape's knowledge of Dark Arts to save his life.




Luna Logic - Feb 1, 2007 8:47 am (#76 of 86)

yes T Vrana, but we were speculating about the Veil being a way to destroy a horcrux. Better stop that line of thought, perhaps ...




T Vrana - Feb 1, 2007 8:51 am (#77 of 86)

If we do follow that thinking, why not just throw the horcrux item through? Why risk sticking any living thing, hand, foot, etc. through the veil?

Wonder if it would disappear, pass over, as Sirius did, or would it pass through and come out the other side, still in this world, because it is not a living thing.




painting sheila - Feb 1, 2007 6:48 pm (#78 of 86)

Or worse yet, release the part of the soul in the veil and then not being able to destroy it.

Why would DD try and destroy the ring while it was on his finger. That doesn't make since - was it the way he tried to destroy it?

Can you destroy the part of the soul by just smashing the item holding it or do you need to go to greater lengths?




T Vrana - Feb 1, 2007 7:03 pm (#79 of 86)

I don't think he tried to destroy it on his hand. I think the curse protecting the Ring where it was hidden burned DD's hand. In the cave, a potion was protecting the horcrux (before RA snatched it), so I assume in the Gaunt house a curse was protecting he ring.




painting sheila - Feb 1, 2007 7:06 pm (#80 of 86)

T Vrana - So anyone that put the ring on would have been burnt?

I love your opinions by the way!




MickeyCee3948 - Feb 1, 2007 7:10 pm (#81 of 86)

If the part of the soul contained in an object is passed beyond the veil, it can't come back as we have been told. If Voldemort loses all of the other parts of his soul(except the one passed beyond the veil). Would he then have to pass beyond the veil in order to exist? Or would he continue to exist on this side of the veil if the part that had been put on the other side had not been destroyed?

Boy, that thought is wild even for me! Pretty crazy, huh.

Mickey




T Vrana - Feb 1, 2007 7:18 pm (#82 of 86)

Painting sheila- Actually, I think anyone who tried to remove it from wherever it was hidden. Like the potion, I think the curse was designed to prevent the ring's removal from its hiding place.

Oh, thanks!




Thom Matheson - Feb 1, 2007 8:01 pm (#83 of 86)

Drink a glass of water there Mickey, couple of deep breaths, paper bag if needed.

Why not just chuck the whole lot of them in and let Voldemort sort it out with Sirius, mono-a-mono.




Luna Logic - Feb 2, 2007 3:40 am (#84 of 86)

Yes, why not a last ghostly (and deathly) battle, behind the Veil... Deathly Hallows indeed ! (I will invite the Hogwarts Ghosts to join, then, and hope Harry's role will only be to push Voldemort through).

Sorry, Me and My shadows, we are a bit far from the sorrow of the Ghosts...




me and my shadow 813 - Feb 3, 2007 11:37 am (#85 of 86)

No problem, Luna Logic. It's a broad topic, and all three topics in title are fair game, as long as it's okay with the moderators. Also, Luna Logic, I like your idea about those behind the Veil being part of the Harry/Vold final conflict.

On another matter, I found it interesting in PoA that after Sirius slashed the Fat Lady and the students were sleeping in the Great Hall, DD tells Percy "Any disturbance should be reported to me immediately...Send word with one of the ghosts."

This could have many applications regarding the ghosts relaying information to DD or Severus regarding the events leading up to DD's death...

Any thoughts?




Luna Logic - Feb 3, 2007 12:55 pm (#86 of 86)

Yes me and my shadows, your posts (in ‘Why did Dumbledore have James's cloak?’ and this one) makes me think. Could the Ghosts (or some of them) had be given the task of surveying Harry for Dumbledore ? Could they now be given bigger roles concerning the security at Poudlard? (and could the Grey Lady protect and nurse the poor Sybille T. in her Ravenclaw Tower?)
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