Kreacher and Deathly Hallows

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Kreacher and Deathly Hallows

Post  Potteraholic on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:31 am

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. It was copied/saved by Lady Arabella and reformatted/reposted by Potteraholic. ~Potteraholic


Soul Search - Apr 12, 2007 9:31 am
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 4, 2007 2:54 am

I was listening to HBP and as Jim Dale announced "Chapter 3, Will and Won't" my mind jumped to "Why that Title for the Chapter?"

A lot happens in Chapter 3: We learn of the "Chosen One" designation for Harry from some newspapers lying around, and also about the desperate state of the wizarding world. Dumbledore visits #4 Privet Drive and chastises the Dursleys, Madam Rosmerta's oak matured mead is mentioned, Harry inherits everything from Sirius, and the Dursleys learn a lot more about Harry, the Order, and #12 Grimmauld place than seemed necessary. The chapter also confirms that Harry has inherited Kreacher and that Kreacher dislikes Harry and would rather belong to Bellatrix.

With all that went on in the chapter the title emphasizes Kreacher and his conflict with Harry. Why? I think we are being told that Kreacher, his dislike of Harry, and his reluctance to serve him, will play a role in Deathly Hallows.

This idea is supported in "Elf Tails" when Harry calls Kreacher and both he and Dobby arrive fighting. Why were they fighting? Dobby seems to be defending Harry from Kreacher's remarks, but maybe there was more to it. Kreacher also tries hard to work around Harry's instructions. Harry will have to be very careful giving Kreacher any tasks; all he has to say is "out" and Kreacher will be gone to Bellatrix.

Harry has placed no restrictions on Kreacher, other than "go to Hogwarts and work with the other house elves in the kitchen." Kreacher has already violated similar directives from Sirius, who was an actual Black.

Kreacher had already stretched his house elf loyalty by going to Narcissa in OotP. I am convinced he will again. Just some possibilities:

Kreacher is at Hogwarts. House elves can Apparate from Hogwarts, in spite of the protections on the castle. Could Kreacher leave and tell Bellatrix about Harry or conditions there? Could he side-along someone into Hogwarts?

Kreacher is associated with #12 Grimmauld Place and, possibly, the locket. Could he remove the locket from #12 and hide it from Harry?

Could Kreacher give Bellatrix information that puts Harry at risk? Even knowing where Harry is, or will be, at any given time could be a great advantage to the Death Eaters.

Just starter ideas. Any more?


Last edited by Potteraholic on Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kreacher and Deathly Hallows (posts #1 - #50)

Post  Potteraholic on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:32 am

Choices - Apr 12, 2007 10:26 am (#1 of 96)

Kreacher could do any one or all of those things, but whether he will or won't remains to be seen.




Steve Newton - Apr 12, 2007 10:51 am (#2 of 96)

I wonder if house elves can do side along apparition. This would be a way around wizards being able to Apparate in Hogwarts.




MickeyCee3948 - Apr 12, 2007 7:08 pm (#3 of 96)

We have seen house elves Apparate within Hogwarts. Have we ever seen one Apparate into or out of Hogwarts?

Mickey




spinowner - Apr 12, 2007 7:18 pm (#4 of 96)

I think the title of the chapter refers to Sirius' will (bequeathing everything to Harry) and Kreacher's repeated exclamation of "Won't!"




Mrs. Sirius - Apr 12, 2007 9:21 pm (#5 of 96)

Choices will or won't that is good. How did you think of that one?

Is that possibly Kreacher on Harry's back on the cover of British children's cover?




Steve Newton - Apr 13, 2007 3:31 am (#6 of 96)

Mrs. Sirius, I have wondered that also. Dobby would be more than willing to go anywhere with Harry and Kreacher...would not. But, I could see Harry not being willing to ask Dobby to do something dangerous and taking his own house elf.




colbow - Apr 13, 2007 7:02 am (#7 of 96)

Kreacher maybe trying to stop Harry and company from entering the mystery place? And getting carried along anyway.....




journeymom - Apr 13, 2007 8:42 am (#8 of 96)

Or perhaps Harry needs Kreacher to get into some place owned by the Blacks or the Malfoys. But I think odds are it's Dobby.




Madam Pince - Apr 13, 2007 11:38 am (#9 of 96)

I think Dobby could also be trying to keep Harry from entering anyplace that might be dangerous -- remember, he spent all of CoS trying to get him sent home from Hogwarts because of a mere whiff that something "bad" might be going down...

Kreacher could, too, though, for more standard reasons like protecting the Black family heirlooms or something.

It could possibly be Kreacher on the cover, but my money's on Dobby.




colbow - Apr 13, 2007 12:06 pm (#10 of 96)

Good points......




MickeyCee3948 - Apr 13, 2007 3:20 pm (#11 of 96)

If I was Harry, there is no way I would put a sword in Kreacher's hands. NO WAY!!!!

Mickey




Madam Pince - Apr 13, 2007 4:02 pm (#12 of 96)

LOL! I agree with that, Mickey! That's one good reason that I'm leaning towards Dobby, I think!




Madame Pomfrey - Apr 14, 2007 9:06 am (#13 of 96)
Edited Apr 14, 2007 10:07 am

Mickey, didn't Dobby Apparate into Hogwarts to warn Harry in book 2? I suppose he could have arrived at Hogwarts, maybe with Lucius (was he there?) and then Apparated into the hospital wing. But, I have always assumed he had Apparated from outside the castle.




MickeyCee3948 - Apr 14, 2007 10:21 am (#14 of 96)

Madame Pomfrey - the thing is we are never told one way or the other. Just another question that probably won't be answered. I just think it has to be Dobby on Harry's back. He will be so proud to be actually helping Harry and after all he is a free elf.

Mickey




Madame Pomfrey - Apr 14, 2007 2:52 pm (#15 of 96)
Edited Apr 14, 2007 3:54 pm

I agree. I can't see Kreacher touching such "filth" due to his pureblood supremacy nature.




Ludicrous Patents Office - Apr 16, 2007 6:58 pm (#16 of 96)

Jo has repeated plot devices before: Polyjuice potion. It would be poetic justice that Kreacher betray Harry when Dobby betrayed the Malfoys. Harry, like Sirius, does not like Kreacher so he doesn't pay much attention to him. It would be possible for Kreacher to betray Harry. My guess is Dumbledore told the Hogwarts house elves to keep an eye on him. In particular Dobby is. LPO




Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 18, 2007 6:25 am (#17 of 96)

I always read it that Dobby Apparated away from Hogwarts after Harry tricked Lucius Malfoy into releasing him. Why would Dobby have remained at Hogwarts. He isn't employed by DD until GoF.




rambkowalczyk - Apr 19, 2007 5:41 am (#18 of 96)

One could argue that Kreacher suffers from Stockholm syndrome as it would be the only way he could cope with the abuse at the Black household. Right now all he remembers are the paltry moments of kindness the Black family has shown him. He has minimized the abuse he endured. I don't know if it's possible to snap out of this syndrome by being away from this abuse.




Soul Search - Apr 22, 2007 10:49 am (#19 of 96)

rambkowalczyk,

I am not familiar with "Stockholm syndrome."

Are you suggesting that being away from #12 Grimmauld Place and Mrs. Black's portrait, while being with Dobby and the Hogwarts' house elves may change Kreacher's attitude toward Harry?

I hadn't thought along those lines; Kreacher seems too well into the pureblood prejudice to ever change.

It is an interesting possibility, however. Kreacher could be of help to Harry. He may know where the locket is and, in some speculative scenarios, even helped retrieve it from the cave. He could, at least, identify R.A.B. In the wildest speculation he could spy on Bellatrix or Narcissa for Harry.

I won't hold my breath. Kreacher changing and supporting Harry seems less likely than the Malfoys joining the fight against Voldemort.




me and my shadow 813 - Apr 23, 2007 12:39 pm (#20 of 96)

Good revival of a good topic, Soul Search. I am afraid for Harry regarding Kreacher. In GoF, we know that Winky used elf-magic to bind Barty Jr. to her and overrode his will. This might be part of "Will" and won't. Can Kreacher override Harry's will? On the other hand, Dobby is a free elf and one would hope his magic is more powerful than Kreacher's. So as long as Dobby keeps an ever-watchful eye on Kreacher, things should be okay.

And I agree -- I feel the elf behind Harry could not be Kreacher. The sword pose is far too valiant.




Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 25, 2007 3:54 am (#21 of 96)

Soul Search - the Stockholm Syndrome is a psychological/psychiatric state where a person kidnapped starts to empathize with their captors to the point of believing their actions to be correct.




Solitaire - Apr 28, 2007 9:14 am (#22 of 96)
Edited Apr 28, 2007 10:15 am

I personally believe Kreacher has some sanity (or Insanity) issues, possibly due to being cooped up alone for many years in 12GP. I have always had the idea (where it comes from, I am not sure) that Dobby was a younger House-Elf and Kreacher was an old, crotchety one. Dobby certainly seems to be able to override his House-Elf constraints when necessary--in essence, betraying the Malfoys to warn Harry of danger. He seems to possess more of a true sense of justice and right/wrong than Winky or Kreacher. They seem more bound by their House-Elf responsibilities to their respective families than what is right or good for the entire magical world ... if that makes sense. I am counting on Dobby being stronger than Kreacher, if there is a showdown between them. I hope he is ... because I do not for a moment believe we have seen the last of Kreacher or his treachery to Harry.

Solitaire




Michael Franz - May 6, 2007 2:02 pm (#23 of 96)

I'd just like to point out that in HBP, Harry tells Kreacher to "Get out of it" and Kreacher vanishes. Too bad he forgot what happened the last time someone gave that order, eh?




Solitaire - May 6, 2007 5:00 pm (#24 of 96)

Yes, it is an important oversight, Michael. I hope it isn't one Harry lives (or dies) to regret.




MickeyCee3948 - May 6, 2007 7:57 pm (#25 of 96)
Edited May 6, 2007 8:59 pm

I think that Kreacher might prove vital in DH. For instance he could know where the locket is. If Mundungus has it or if it still at #12. He won't like telling Harry but since he can't lie to his master, he will end up telling Harry;.

Mickey




Solitaire - May 6, 2007 8:25 pm (#26 of 96)

If Mundungus has taken the locket and fenced it to Borgin and Burkes, it could have been bought by the time Harry finds out the truth. This could present them with an interesting search.

Solitaire




MickeyCee3948 - May 7, 2007 4:36 pm (#27 of 96)

I kinda feel that if the locket is not at #12 then Mundungus had it with him when he was arrested. The possibilities if it has already been sold are too numerous to contemplate. If Borgin and Burkes have it they would know what it was and where it came from, since they are the ones who sold it.

Mickey




Choices - May 8, 2007 12:02 pm (#28 of 96)

I think there is a possibility that Mundungus got the locket from Grimmauld Place on orders from Dumbledore or someone in the Order and of course, helped himself to a few other trinkets for his own profit. It is possible he was handing over the locket to Aberforth (an Order member) when Harry encountered him on the street. It is also possible that Tonks knew what Mundungus and Aberforth were doing and that was why she prevented Harry from harming Mundungus.




Soul Search - May 8, 2007 1:21 pm (#29 of 96)

Choices,

That has far reaching implications if Dumbledore knew about the locket at #12 and didn't tell Harry about it, especially when the cave horcrux turned out to be a locket. 'Course, he did have some other problems to deal with, but still.




journeymom - May 8, 2007 2:30 pm (#30 of 96)

No, no, no, we established that Dung is Andromeda.




Choices - May 8, 2007 5:00 pm (#31 of 96)
Edited May 8, 2007 6:01 pm

I'm not sure about that (Dung is Andromeda), but in book 7 I think we will find out that several people are not who we think/thought they are/were. I think there has been a good bit of "switching" going on.




me and my shadow 813 - May 9, 2007 4:43 pm (#32 of 96)

No, no, no, we established that Dung is Andromeda. - journeymom

Whoa, have I been slacking on post-reading. I agree with Choices that the number of twists and switching will make our heads spin, but Dung=Andromeda... I'll have to mull that over. I still think Dobby got into the Polyjuice Potion during the end battle of HBP and was possibly the Big Blond DE. As far as the topic of this thread, I like the idea that Dung will have sold the locket by the time Harry puts 2 and 2 together, goes to #12G Place, finds it missing and rounds on Kreacher to demand an explanation.




Madame Pomfrey - May 16, 2007 7:31 am (#33 of 96)

I agree, Choices. I still am suspicious that a body had been removed from the woods at the QWC in GoF and that a possible switch was made there. Who? I have no idea. As for Dobby as the Big Blond DE.I Haven't heard of that one.Is there a theory I can read somewhere?




Choices - May 16, 2007 11:07 am (#34 of 96)
Edited May 16, 2007 12:09 pm

Me and My - "I still think Dobby got into the Polyjuice Potion during the end battle of HBP and was possibly the Big Blond DE."

I tend to think the Big Blond DE is either Crabbe or Goyle from the scene in the graveyard when Voldemort spoke to them.....

"And here" --- Voldemort moved on to the two largest hooded figures --- "we have Crabbe...you will do better this time, will you not, Crabbe? And you, Goyle?"

They are described as the two largest hooded figures. Makes me believe the Big Blond is one of them.




journeymom - May 16, 2007 11:20 am (#35 of 96)
Edited May 16, 2007 12:22 pm

Me and My- Dung = Andromeda- see [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It's all context.




me and my shadow 813 - May 16, 2007 4:51 pm (#36 of 96)

Madame Pomfrey, I personally haven't heard anyone else talk about Dobby being the Blond DE. I thought it would be possible because 1)to me much will be revealed in DH about Dobby knowing a lot from DD before he died; 2)Severus might have been in charge of Dobby while DD was away at the Cave, giving Dobby a special job since he has a unique and free-elf-highly-powerful magic; 3)Dobby could Apparate and move quite freely around Hogwarts so could easily knock out real Blond DE, pluck a hair, Apparate into Potions Room and make himself into an undercover bodyguard for the Order (bad aim, keeping Hagrid away from the fight, etc.). My little theory with no substantial backing... I don't think it was Crabbe or Goyle because in my opinion we'll find out Blond DE was one of the Order (although I'm sure Crabbe or Goyle would have lousy aim, too!)




me and my shadow 813 - May 18, 2007 2:46 pm (#37 of 96)
Edited May 18, 2007 3:52 pm

Off topic but -journeymom- your Andromeda=Dung theory is along the same lines as my Severus=Fawkes theory a while back. Heh heh, it's fun to dream... you can amuse yourself on the Fawkes and other Phoenixes thread, starting with post#314.




journeymom - May 18, 2007 7:57 pm (#38 of 96)

Okay, I'm intrigued, Me and My. Post #314 of which thread...?




Choices - May 19, 2007 7:43 am (#39 of 96)
Edited May 19, 2007 8:46 am

Me and My - ".....you can amuse yourself on the Fawkes and other Phoenixes thread, starting with post#314."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]




me and my shadow 813 - May 19, 2007 1:47 pm (#40 of 96)

journeymom, I can't seem to figure out linking... Choices kindly gave you the link to Fawkes thread, above.




journeymom - May 19, 2007 2:29 pm (#41 of 96)

Oh, my word, Me and My, I love that theory! You have in no way convinced me that Snape is Fawkes, but there are lots of similarities between the two. But I think I won't discuss it here, but over on Snape's thread.




Katherine Bullock - Jun 22, 2007 10:10 am (#42 of 96)
Edited Jun 22, 2007 11:11 am

I think it IS Kreacher on Harry's back on the Bloomsbury Children's cover simply for the fact that his head is bare. Ever since Hermione started knitting those hats, Dobby has always had them on when we've seen him, right? The cover artist would definitely not miss that important aspect of Dobby's appearance.

Why Kreacher is on Harry's back holding a sword I have yet to hypothesize. He'll definitely be a very important character throughout the last book though, in my opinion.




geauxtigers - Jun 25, 2007 10:21 pm (#43 of 96)

I agree about Kreacher being important. There were theories floating around over a year ago, (last time I was on this thread, I theorized it to death!). It goes something along the lines of Kreacher going on a horcrux hunt with Harry. Kreacher knows a lot of things, he like in the Black house. R.A.B. could've taken Kreacher with him when he stole the real locket horcrux, as DD says, Harry being an underaged wizard, him powers wouldn't register in the boat crossing the lake. I think it’s very possible that Kreacher went with RAB (and I'm assuming here that its Regulus) to the cave to get the other horcrux. That’s the gist of one of the theories from way back. That’s the one I like, and with the new cover art and such, I think we can be 100% certain that he will be in book 7 and he will be important.

I wonder if Dumbledore ever got memories from Kreacher that he never showed Harry. I'm starting to think that he might've. Maybe not, I'm just thinking out loud here.

Harry needs to bring some Veritaserum with him and spike Kreacher's drink and get him to tell everything, because he knows stuff. LOL




Solitaire - Jun 25, 2007 10:32 pm (#44 of 96)

Harry needs to bring some Veritaserum with him and spike Kreacher's drink

Isn't that against the Wizarding laws? Just what Harry needs ... he is always in more than enough trouble!




Joanne Reid - Jun 26, 2007 10:15 am (#45 of 96)

Hi,

I don't think the use of Veritaserum on a house elf an adult wizard owns is against any law. House elves have virtually no rights that we have been able to discern. Harry legally owns Kreacher. Harry is an adult. So, I find no constraints against such a action.

The only restrictions I can remember are against a teacher using it on a student.




Solitaire - Jun 26, 2007 10:34 am (#46 of 96)
Edited Jun 26, 2007 11:39 am

Perhaps Harry will use Legilimency on Kreacher. It has been discussed that, while Harry was not too hot as an Occlumens, he might be a fairly competent Legilimens. I'd rather see him try this than Veritaserum, particularly as it seems to take a long time to brew Veritaserum--a month, right?

Besides, I'd hate to see Harry treat Kreacher inappropriately, even if Kreacher is a mean, conniving, despicable excuse for a House-Elf. Many, I feel, are looking to Harry to reunite the Magical world and treat all magical beings with respect and dignity. I'd hate to see Harry misuse his "ownership" of Kreacher, as nasty as Kreacher is. JM2K, of course, but I would find this far more troubling than the potential AK Harry may have to use on LV (which has everyone so upset).

Solitaire




sstabeler - Jun 27, 2007 11:00 am (#47 of 96)

people talking about harry breaking the law seem to be forgetting that Scrimgeour can't exactly send Harry to Azkaban. remember, he's seen as the only one who can defeat Voldemort, so putting him in jail would cause an almighty outcry, and could well unseat Scrimgeour, as people would be wondering if Scrimgeour actually supported Voldemort. which would no doubt bring down Scrimgeour. remember Fudge?




rambkowalczyk - Jun 28, 2007 6:46 am (#48 of 96)

Seeing as how the producers put Kreacher in OOP because JKR said that doing the book 7 movie would be a lot easier if we know who Kreacher is makes me wonder what will Kreacher do.

What is it that needs to be established in OOP that will make Kreacher significant? That he was owned by Sirius, that Harry inherits him because of Sirius' death, or that he was in the Black household and knows RAB (who we all assume is Regulus). Is it the fact that he shares the Black family values of what it means to be a Pureblood?




Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2007 7:15 am (#49 of 96)
Edited Jun 28, 2007 8:18 am

My guess is that it will have something to do with his hiding away all the Black family relics in his little cubbyhole. A horcrux, perhaps? The locket? The text shows Kreacher sidling into the room at 12GP and attempting to smuggle things out right after the locket is mentioned in OotP... Later on, Hermione puts Kreacher's Christmas gift into his nest, and the trio peered into it at the time, so perhaps during The Great Horcrux Hunt in DH, they will remember noticing something...

Another possibility could be the fact that the Blacks owned him, and if R.A.B. is indeed Regulus and he needed a "second" to accompany him in the boat to cross the lake and steal the Horcrux locket, then Kreacher would be an excellent candidate to be that "second" -- house-elf magic might not "register" and so the boat wouldn't detect him like it didn't detect Harry, plus he'd be small so an ideal "second" for the boat. Kreacher would've hated doing it I'm sure, but as Regulus was a Black, Kreacher would have to obey him.




Solitaire - Jun 28, 2007 10:00 am (#50 of 96)
Edited Jun 28, 2007 11:07 am

house-elf magic might not "register"

Maybe ... but haven't we been told that they have "powerful magic" of their own? We also can't forget that the Ministry could not tell that the Hover Charm was performed by Dobby rather than Harry at 4PD ... so perhaps the "magic detectors" in the cave can't tell, either.

Then again, ... what if R.A.B.--whoever he was--had been given the task of placing the locket in the cave and then putting the protection in place? If this is true, perhaps there was no need to worry about "magic detectors" up to that point, and anyone could have accompanied him. It would also explain how he was able to put in the fake locket and take the real locket elsewhere for safekeeping (before he was killed).

BTW, why would Kreacher have hated going with Regulus? Regulus was supposedly the "fair haired boy," according to Sirius. Unless Regulus had told Kreacher he was double-crossing Voldemort, I can't see why Kreacher would object to helping Regulus the DE.

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Kreacher and Deathly Hallows (posts #51 - #96)

Post  Potteraholic on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:34 am

Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2007 2:16 pm (#51 of 96)
Edited Jun 28, 2007 3:19 pm

I was just assuming that Kreacher would've known that Regulus was double-crossing Voldemort, but you're right, I suppose Regulus could've just said "Come with me, I have a job to do for the Dark Lord," and Kreacher wouldn't have suspected a thing.

It would help if we knew when Regulus "turned" on Voldemort, and if it was a public sort of thing that everybody knew about, or just something he decided on within himself. R.A.B. says in the note that he knows he'll probably be dead soon, so I was assuming that he is aware that Voldemort knows who he is and that he's betrayed the DEs and is hot on his tail. If this was Regulus, and he knows that Voldy knows, then probably everybody (including Kreacher) knows too.

You know?




Solitaire - Jun 28, 2007 2:49 pm (#52 of 96)

Perhaps when he writes that note, he is assuming Voldemort will find out what he is about to do. What if he didn't find out, though? I've often wondered--in light of Dumbledore's comment that "they can't kill you if you're already dead"--if perhaps people only think Regulus is dead. What if it was staged ... and he is still alive?

Solitaire




Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2007 2:51 pm (#53 of 96)
Edited Jun 28, 2007 3:53 pm

That is another of my half-formed theories that I've gotten after reading the Mugglenet book. It said something about R.A.B. going into hiding, and that comment made me start wondering if Regulus really didn't die...

Only problem -- would Kreacher still "belong" to Harry if there was a Black still alive? I know Dumbledore did that little test to eliminate Bella as a possible Kreacher-owner, and he said that apparently Sirius knew what he was doing when he made his will, but Regulus was actually in the same immediate family, whereas Bella wasn't. Hmmmm...




Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 28, 2007 3:08 pm (#54 of 96)

I agree Madame Pince. I think Regulus is dead. I don't think anyone can fool that kind of magic.

Ever since I read HBP I have wondered who helped RAB. If it is Regulus it would make sense that Kreacher helped him. I like that idea. LPO




Solitaire - Jun 28, 2007 3:12 pm (#55 of 96)
Edited Jun 28, 2007 4:14 pm

Yeah ... Regulus being alive would kind of negate Harry's ownership of Kreacher ... unless there is some way around it that we do not yet know (the kind of magic DD is talking about to Draco). I guess I keep wanting to think there is a "good" Black still in hiding somewhere.

Solitaire




Chemyst - Jun 28, 2007 4:01 pm (#56 of 96)
Edited Jun 28, 2007 5:02 pm

The World Book interview March 4, 2004 settled the Regulus, dead or alive, for me-

"Well, he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days."

I don't think JKR was being coy. I think Regulus and Kreacher had a working relationship.




rambkowalczyk - Jun 28, 2007 6:32 pm (#57 of 96)

I wonder given Kreacher’s feelings--he loathes Harry and yet worships the ground Draco walks on if he will help Draco. The twist is that Draco doesn't want to work for Voldemort. IT would be Kreacher thinking he is defying Harry when in reality he is helping.




Solitaire - Jun 28, 2007 6:36 pm (#58 of 96)

Chemyst, I thought about that ... but Dumbledore's comment that "they can't kill you if you're already dead" has made me suspicious ... that's all.




MickeyCee3948 - Jun 30, 2007 5:21 am (#59 of 96)
Edited Jun 30, 2007 6:21 am

Since Kreacher belongs to Harry and a house elf can't lie to his master, it doesn't seem that Harry would need any potions or magic to get the truth out of him. Just ask him what he wants to know. Where is the "#$@!z&" locket. Still bet that Mundungus got it while on one of his treasure hunts through the house.

Mickey




Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 30, 2007 11:32 am (#60 of 96)

I agree Mickey. Why else have the scene between Dung and Aberforth. That seemed a little odd to me. LPO




Solitaire - Jun 30, 2007 7:11 pm (#61 of 96)

I agree that Dung has either the locket or something else that will prove important to Harry. The problem will be finding out how to get it back.




Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 1, 2007 7:17 pm (#62 of 96)

That is a problem Solitaire. I hope Dung still has it or it is at #12. Voldy will be surprised to learn the fate of his soul bits. LPO




Lilly P - Jul 1, 2007 8:46 pm (#63 of 96)

I think Dung will have an object as well, it's another case of pulling together, like uniting with Slytherin and getting past the hatred, Harry will have to make peace with Dung to get what he wants from him.




Solitaire - Jul 1, 2007 11:59 pm (#64 of 96)

I think Harry is ticked at the moment, because he believes Dung has been disrespectful to Sirius's memory .. and he has. Still, I do not think Harry harbors the same kind of deep-seated hatred for Dung as he does for Snape. I'm hopeful that Harry can enlist Aberforth (once he learns who he is) to help him get back the stuff Dung has taken.

Solitaire




sstabeler - Jul 2, 2007 10:42 am (#65 of 96)

Actually, there is a fair chance Aberforth has the locket. and if he found out it was what indirectly caused the death of his brother, i think Aberforth would gladly give it up.




Die Zimtzicke - Aug 4, 2007 3:51 pm (#66 of 96)

Since we can now discuss the book, if I am reading the heading about spoilers on the forum correctly, does anyone want to take a crack at discussing how things went down with Kreacher?




Soul Search - Aug 4, 2007 4:11 pm (#67 of 96)

From the opening post: "I think we are being told that Kreacher, his dislike of Harry, and his reluctance to serve him, will play a role in Deathly Hallows."

Well, I got one out of three. Kreacher did appear in Deathly Hallows and played a key role. Totally opposite from what I suggested, but getting anything right is better than my average for HBP.

rambkowalczyk came close with this:

One could argue that Kreacher suffers from Stockholm syndrome as it would be the only way he could cope with the abuse at the Black household. Right now all he remembers are the paltry moments of kindness the Black family has shown him. He has minimized the abuse he endured. I don't know if it's possible to snap out of this syndrome by being away from this abuse.

I came a little closer in my response:

I hadn't thought along those lines; Kreacher seems too well into the pureblood prejudice to ever change.

It is an interesting possibility, however. Kreacher could be of help to Harry. He may know where the locket is and, in some speculative scenarios, even helped retrieve it from the cave. He could, at least, identify R.A.B. ...

I won't hold my breath. Kreacher changing and supporting Harry seems less likely than the Malfoys joining the fight against Voldemort.

But, wow, the Malfoy's part fits even better!

MickeyCee3948 also got a part of it right:

I think that Kreacher might prove vital in DH. For instance he could know where the locket is. If Mundungus has it or if it still at #12. He won't like telling Harry but since he can't lie to his master, he will end up telling Harry;.

geauxtigers came even closer"

I agree about Kreacher being important. There were theories floating around over a year ago, (last time I was on this thread, I theorized it to death!). It goes something along the lines of Kreacher going on a horcrux hunt with Harry. Kreacher knows a lot of things, he like in the Black house. R.A.B. could've taken Kreacher with him when he stole the real locket horcrux, ... I think its very possible that Kreacher went with RAB (and I'm assuming here that its Regulus)to the cave to get the other horcrux. That’s the gist of one of the theories from way back. That’s the one I like, and with the new cover art and such, I think we can be 100% certain that he will be in book 7 and he will be important.

Good show, geauxtigers.

Other participants supported these ideas. I did not. Oh well, at least I guessed right that Kreacher would have a role in Deathly Hallows.




Chemyst - Aug 4, 2007 6:14 pm (#68 of 96)
Edited Aug 4, 2007 7:16 pm

I just did a search to see if I had said anything stupid. From post #56:

"I think Regulus and Kreacher had a working relationship."

Whew! that works.




Good Evans - Aug 5, 2007 12:19 pm (#69 of 96)

Kreacher really does show us (and Hermione makes the point) what an awful life the house elf has, this cruel requirement to obey, the siphoning of the beliefs of the family and master, not being allowed to think for themselves, is so blatant in Kreacher’s case.

Kreacher coming through at the end is still for Master Regulus, not because he agrees that the dark lord must be vanquished. I would have liked to have known more about Hermione’s work in the ministry after school to see what she was able to change and the effect that this had on house elves.




MickeyCee3948 - Aug 6, 2007 4:54 pm (#70 of 96)

Wonder who Kreacher went with after the battle. Can't see him and Ginny working together in a kitchen.

Mickey




Solitaire - Aug 6, 2007 7:22 pm (#71 of 96)

Many years ago on Bewitched, Samantha and Darrin had Esmeralda, the "yoo-hoo maid." When they needed her, Sam just said, "Yoo-hoo, Esmeralda!" Perhaps Kreacher just stayed at Hogwarts for the most part and became a "yoo-hoo House Elf" to Harry and Ginny. Then again, he may have whipped old 12GP into shape, and maybe they lived there. I'd be interested to know ...

Solitaire




Esther Rose - Aug 7, 2007 6:19 am (#72 of 96)
Edited Aug 7, 2007 7:19 am

Hmmm... I would think that Kreacher would take offence if Ginny was in the kitchen. Not to mention all that Quidditch practice probably left her with very little time for cooking.




Madam Pince - Aug 7, 2007 8:19 pm (#73 of 96)

If I were Ginny, and I had a "Kreacher" in my house, I'd never be in the kitchen to cause any offense!




Die Zimtzicke - Aug 8, 2007 8:41 am (#74 of 96)

Kreacher would never have been truly happy anyplace but Grimmauld Place. I think Harry let him go back there. Whether or not anyone else ever stayed there regularly, is debatable, I suppose.




Choices - Aug 8, 2007 9:37 am (#75 of 96)

LOL Madam Pince. Me either, I would just poke my head in to ask, "When is dinner?"




Esther Rose - Aug 8, 2007 10:16 am (#76 of 96)
Edited Aug 8, 2007 11:16 am

The only person I would really worry about is Molly if she ever stopped by for a meal visit.

"hmmmm... This potato soup Kreacher made is good but not nearly as good as mine. hmpf!"

Perhaps they can trade recipes.

Now that I think about it I am sure there were plenty of meals over the years that Hermione didn't have to cook between having dinners at Harry and Ginny's and Molly's. lol




Solitaire - Jul 7, 2008 8:17 pm (#77 of 96)

MickeyCee: Wonder who Kreacher went with after the battle. Can't see him and Ginny working together in a kitchen.

Why not, Mickey? After my reread, I think the way Harry handled the whole thing with Kreacher had a profound effect on him. In the Battle at Hogwarts, he mentions Harry ("my master, defender of House-Elves") as well as Regulus ("fight the Dark Lord, in the name of brave Regulus"). Regulus obviously repented of his DE connections as surely as Snape did--and he acted on his own, even though it meant certain death for himself, because he knew it was the right thing to do. Given Kreacher's deep loyalty and love for Regulus, and his feelings of loss, having someone else understand this and honor it changed how he felt about everything. I think that being able to clear Regulus's name had a cathartic effect on him.

It's possible that he will stay with the house he has loved. Possibly he will really clean it and make it habitable for Harry and his family. Maybe it will become "the town house." Possibly Harry has a Potter family estate somewhere ... don't you think?

Another possible option for Kreacher would be to go and serve the Malfoys. Now that this is no longer a security problem, it is possible that Harry might free him to do that, if he chooses. I hope Jo gives us more info on Kreacher's life after Voldemort. I am really curious!

Solitaire




PeskyPixie - Jul 8, 2008 12:31 pm (#78 of 96)

Soli, do you think Kreacher would still want to serve the Malfoys? If so, he's a simpler creature (no pun intended!) than Dobby.




Solitaire - Jul 8, 2008 2:25 pm (#79 of 96)

I do not know, Pesky. I am hopeful that, after the War and as a result of Harry's respectful way of addressing the whole issue of Regulus and the locket, Kreacher may be a changed "creature." I think leading the other Elves into the battle is a good sign, don't you?

It's possible, too, that Kreacher may have learned what happened to Dobby and how Harry dug his grave and buried him. That act certainly seemed to impress Griphook. Perhaps it had a similar effect on Kreacher, if he found out.

Solitaire




haymoni - Jul 9, 2008 5:41 pm (#80 of 96)

I wonder how much longer Kreacher lived.




Solitaire - Jul 9, 2008 5:50 pm (#81 of 96)
Edited Jul 9, 2008 6:51 pm

Interesting question. I'm willing to bet he was at least happy and well-treated during his final years. He and Dobby both played significant roles in bringing about the fall of Voldemort--Dobby for saving HRH, and Kreacher for helping the kids find the real locket horcrux. I think Harry would have wanted him to be happy, don't you?

Solitaire




rcs - Jul 12, 2008 6:56 pm (#82 of 96)

What makes you think Kreacher's even dead (as of the Epilogue time-frame, that is)? I think he's still living with Harry and Ginny and their kids to this day.




Solitaire - Jul 12, 2008 8:10 pm (#83 of 96)
Edited Jul 12, 2008 9:11 pm

Who said he was dead?

Edit: Oh, I see ... you thought that I meant that from my post. I just meant that until he eventually dies, I hope the rest of his life is happy.

Solitaire




haymoni - Jul 13, 2008 6:27 am (#84 of 96)

He was already pretty old. Jo's never given us any insight as to the life cycle of a house elf.




Mrs. Sirius - Jul 13, 2008 7:05 am (#85 of 96)
Edited Jul 13, 2008 8:06 am

Well, I took Winky's history to be a bit of an indication that house elves are long lived. If I am not mistaken, Winky was a house elf for Barty Crouch Jr. from infancy. She stepped into the role of caring for the Crouches from her mother with Barty Crouch Sr.

Also if I am not mistaken, the house elves lining the wall in 12 GP were all rather old looking, although that could have been from the rough life.




Solitaire - Jul 13, 2008 7:17 am (#86 of 96)

Sirius said that his "dear Aunt Elladora" started the family tradition of beheading the House-Elves when they became too old to carry the tea trays. Perhaps the death of Mrs. Black has enabled Kreacher to live longer than he might have. Then again, perhaps they have very long lives. Just another of those questions I hope Jo answers in A History of Magic, should she ever write it!

Solitaire




Chemyst - Jul 13, 2008 5:49 pm (#87 of 96)
Edited Jul 13, 2008 7:03 pm

Jo's never given us any insight as to the life cycle of a house elf.

Well, yes and no. In WOMBAT 2, Part 1, question #7; we are given five statements about house elves and asked to guess which one of them was false. That gives us an 80% chance that 'house-elves have an average life-expectancy of 200 years' is true. (Lexicon Steve figures it is closer to 150 years though.) And we would still have to know when Kreacher was born to know if it is likely he is still alive.

The other choices were:

b. A house-elf's allegiance is foremost to its house (rather than to the inhabitants of the house)

c. House-elves cannot be ordered to kill themselves

d. House-elf magic is sufficiently powerful to override wizards' enchantments

e. House-elves breed infrequently and then only with their masters' permission

And remember you are choosing ONE that is FALSE.)

Since DH was published, answer "d" was shown to be true in the Malfoy dungeon, so that would drop the chance of a 200 year life span being true down to 75%. We also got more insight on answer 'b' about a house-elf's allegiance, but I don't think that was conclusive. Kreacher seemed to have some personal choice over his allegiance.




Hoot Owl - Jul 14, 2008 12:03 pm (#88 of 96)

From Ch. 10 of Deathly Hallows ' Kreacher's Tale'; "The house-elf's highest law is his Master's bidding," intoned Kreacher.

So the FALSE answer to the WOMBAT 2 question is "b."

The rest must be True. But that only tells us house-elves have an average life span of 200 yrs, not how old Kreacher is or if he is still alive.




rcs - Jul 14, 2008 12:34 pm (#89 of 96)

Is that necessarily the case, though? Chap. 3 of HBP ("Will and Won't") suggests that the house-elf's allegiance is to the house, because Dumbledore uses Kreacher's obedience of Harry as proof that he has indeed inherited 12GP. This would seem to suggest that answer choice "b" IS true. I think it's choice "c" ("House-elves cannot be ordered to kill themselves") that's false.




Anna L. Black - Jul 14, 2008 1:07 pm (#90 of 96)

I think that DD only checked that Sirius's will worked as it was supposed to - that Harry really inherited all his possessions, including Kreacher and 12GP. If Harry is really Sirius's heir, then Kreacher will obey. But it is confusing, now I come to think about it...




rcs - Jul 14, 2008 1:21 pm (#91 of 96)
Edited Jul 14, 2008 2:23 pm

Reread the chapter. Dumbledore wanted to make sure there was no spell on the house that would cause it to pass to Bellatrix instead of to Harry (thus making it unsuitable for the Order's headquarters). If Kreacher's allegiance wasn't to the house, then Harry's inheritance of Kreacher would offer no proof that 12GP had fallen into his hands. Rather, it would only confirm what DD and Harry already knew--that Sirius had indeed willed all his possessions to Harry.




Choices - Jul 14, 2008 4:44 pm (#92 of 96)
Edited Jul 14, 2008 5:45 pm

I think Kreacher' allegiance is not to the "house" itself, but to the person/family who owns the house. When he obeyed Harry, it proved that Harry was now the true owner of the house. I think the false answer is "B". Surely wizard families move on occasion and their house-elf would have to go with them to the new house. **Does any of that make sense?**




rcs - Jul 14, 2008 5:08 pm (#93 of 96) Edited Jul 14, 2008 6:08 pm

"I think Kreacher' allegiance is not to the "house" itself, but to the person/family who owns the house." --Choices

Yes, I quite agree, but I think that is what JKR meant by Choice B, i.e. that if a wizard moved to a different house and gave/sold the original house to someone else, the house-elf would stay with the house, not the owner. I don't really see how an elf could literally have an allegiance to the house except by way of the wizard who owned the house (can you see a house giving orders, even in the wizarding world? I didn't think so!).




TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 14, 2008 8:41 pm (#94 of 96)

A thought on the age a house elf attains in a normal lifespan, remember how bad JKR is at math, and in some cases continuity.




haymoni - Jul 15, 2008 2:46 pm (#95 of 96)

If they breed infrequently, which family gets to keep the baby house elf?

If it is a girl, does it stay with the mother's family and if it is a boy, it goes to the father's family?




Mrs Brisbee - Jul 19, 2008 8:03 pm (#96 of 96) Edited Jul 19, 2008 9:04 pm

Wasn't the tradition of cutting off the House Elves' heads because they got too old and mounting them on the wall started by Sirius's aunt? This lead me to suspect that House Elves had a relatively short life span. House Elves would need to reach old age relatively quickly compared to humans for so many elf heads to be up on the wall.
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