Does any one else wonder 'what if...'

Does any one else wonder 'what if...'

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "Archived Thread to be Worked" folder of the WC forum. Elanor

SHEla WOLFsbane - Feb 19, 2004 1:03 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:23 pm
Though, GoF was not my favorite book it did invoke some strong reactions from me. The one thing that keeps running through my head is: What if Harry would have GIVEN lord Voldemort some of his blood. You can't forcibly take something if it is given. I've seen a few people touch briefly on this idea, but nothing farther... I was curious how many other people had some strong, "What if" ideas.

popkin - Feb 19, 2004 1:20 am (#1 of 114)
mother
Edited by Feb 19, 2004 12:22 am
How could Harry give Lord Voldemort anything? He was tightly tied to the tombstone (look at all those "t"'s). I don't think he had the option to give Voldemort his blood.

Sorry to disagree, SHEla WOLFsbane. And, welcome to the forum.

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Feb 19, 2004 3:15 am (#2 of 114)
I don't have any problems if a person disagrees with me. Hey, I'm glad someone responded to the thread. Anyway, I enjoy the exchange of ideas. Maybe this would have been better as a fanfic, but let me try to explain what I ment better:

I guess in my mind while reading that scene, I kept thinking that Harry would just think, or say something like, 'Fine, he wants my blood so bad, he can have it.' The part where it says, "Blood of an enemy forcibly taken" Just read so much louder in my mind. Even tied up if you emotionally 'give' something to someone, it can't be 'taken'. I'm trying to think of a good "G" example... If someone is trying to cut your long hair (just to be a pain), and you focus more on what they are physically doing, and try to fight that, it gives them ammo, and more than likely you are going to end up losing some hair/ part of yourself. Versus, you focus on what they are trying to gain, example: attention/whole life and you really don't care if they cut your hair or not; you let them have your hair to cut, it takes that motivation, or what ever they hope to gain, back away from them... Hope that helps instead of making it worse...

Still feel free to disagree, but I guess I was wondering how you guys think it would have effected the spell... Or any other 'what if's'

Thanks for the welcome by the way!!

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Kathryn Pottinger - Feb 19, 2004 3:24 am (#3 of 114)
I don't think it would have affected the spell if Harry had just decided in his mind to give his blood. The reason I think this is because another bit of the spell is "flesh of the servant willingly given" and whilst Wormtail behaved as if he was willingly giving his hand I doubt he was so willing in his head. So as long as Harry and Wormtail acted forced and willing respectively by being tied up and cutting the hand off himself I think the spell would work.

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Feb 19, 2004 4:45 am (#4 of 114)
Oooh, so true... That aspect of wormtail never even crossed my mind. Hmmm, I wonder if that will be one of those things that comes back in a later book...

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icthestrals - Feb 19, 2004 7:57 am (#5 of 114)
Join Potty HQ on this forum! Woohoo, from janitor to VP!
SHEla WOLFsbane, I have felt all along that Harry needs to learn to not take the bait. Something that Snape was trying to get across to Harry during his Occlumency lessons, I think.

I also think (always dangerous, I know) that how Harry reacts to things was a major point in OotP. He responded with anger (understandable) many times when he could have ignored things and looked deeper into what was motivating the person trying to bait him. (I hope this makes sense. I does in my head anyway.)

I am hoping that JK will let us see Harry grow a little more and learn from Hermione, McGonnagall, and Snape on how to handle his enemies better.

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VeronikaG - Feb 19, 2004 11:19 am (#6 of 114)
Maybe Harry needs a new hero? Up until now he has looked up to Sirius, who WAS a great guy, but who also dealt with things by getting angry. And it became his death.

If Harry gets closer to Lupin (or Snape, but I find that unlikely), he'll learn to ignore silly pranks from Draco and baits from DEs.

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zelmia - Feb 19, 2004 3:26 pm (#7 of 114)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I think if we're going to wonder "what if" I would be wondering What if Harry had just let Cedric go ahead and take the Cup? Or more simply, What if Cedric had got there first, after all?
Obviously Crouch Jr. did his best to prevent anyone from actually beating Harry in the Task. But he was unable to prevent Cedric from winning this Task - and Cedric would have won, had he and Harry not decided between them to share the glory.
So I guess I have always wondered what would have happened if Cedric had just taken the Cup himself, instead of "walking away from the kind of glory Hufflepuff House had not seen for centuries."

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Feb 19, 2004 11:32 pm (#8 of 114)
Thanks for your responses everyone!

icthestrals, and VeronikaG: I truly hope that Harry will mature more in the next book, and learn to take a, 'good lesson learnt.' No matter where it comes from- even Snape. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening, although, with Sirius gone, it does change the dinamics within the books.

Zelmia: I like your train of thought. Hee, hee, wouldn't that have been a thorn in ol' voldie's side. Unfortunately, I still think that Cedric would have died. Only Harry wouldn't have had all of the questioning looks in OotP, like it was his fault.

Just to head off anyone who is thinking it, I know that Harry couldn't have gone all seven books, stopping Voldemorts rise to power again, and narrowly escaping at the same time... But I still think it's a fun thought...

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Jenny M. - Feb 20, 2004 12:13 am (#9 of 114)
I think you're right, and it would have messed up the spell somehow if Harry gave his blood. Perhaps it would have put Voldy under life-debt to Harry.

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Phoenix - Feb 20, 2004 8:25 am (#10 of 114)
Nicola Mlynek
Maybe if, in his mind, Harry gave his blood , and Wormtail, in his mind, did't really want to give his flesh willingly, the two things would somehow cancel each other out. Then wouldn't the process have gone according to plan anyway?

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popkin - Feb 20, 2004 12:39 pm (#11 of 114)
mother
My big "what if": What if Harry had opened his present from Sirius when he first got it and used it to communicate regularly with his Godfather? Or, what if Sirius had asked Harry, "Why did you ask me to contact you through the floo network? Why don't you just use the two-way mirror I gave you?"

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Jenny M. - Feb 20, 2004 4:19 pm (#12 of 114)
Yes, that's been bothering me as well.

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Feb 20, 2004 8:17 pm (#13 of 114)
Yeh, I can see Harry being preoccupied, but Sirius was the "Adult" he should have asked Harry about the mirror...

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zelmia - Feb 20, 2004 9:44 pm (#14 of 114)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
My guess is that the Floo Network is a perfectly ordinary way for students to communicate with their families back home - more immediately rather than waiting for an owl. It probably just didn't occur to Sirius that, in this case, it was unusual - what with all the decrees and the Ministry watching communicatation, etc.

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popkin - Feb 21, 2004 3:45 am (#15 of 114)
mother
Edited by Feb 21, 2004 2:45 am
Or, maybe Sirius enjoyed the danger.

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FCBarca - Feb 21, 2004 11:30 am (#16 of 114)
Another 'what if' is what if voldemort had killed Dumbledore at the end of OotP? Apart from Voldemort then turning his wand on Harry, what if Harry had escaped. I'm sure Harry is as good as dead without Dumbledore...

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Luanee - Feb 23, 2004 12:27 am (#17 of 114)
I think I have asked this before but I would like to ask this again, What if Harry did not manage to defeat Tom Riddle in CoS? Would there be 2 Voldies ?

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alexa - Feb 23, 2004 12:38 am (#18 of 114)
I think Tom Riddle would 'possess' Voldemort, like the way he possess Ginny. Then maybe Voldemort would be 'alive' again.

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Feb 23, 2004 2:49 am (#19 of 114)
Hmmm, there might be something to that. I mean maybe it was just in the movies (been awhile since I've read the books) but doesn't Tom say something like, "Voldemort is my past, present, and future."???

Anyway, I also wonder: what if Dumbledore would have told Harry, even part of what was really going on, if Harry would have listened a little better?

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haymoni - Feb 24, 2004 6:11 am (#20 of 114)
Why didn't Harry tell Dumbledore he was hearing voices??

Why didn't they use Priori Incantatem (?) on Lupin's wand to see Scabbers change into Pettigrew??

What terrible, awful thing would have happened if Harry refused to participate in the Tri-Wizard Tournament??

And, yes, why would a boy who received so few presents in his life suddenly ignore one from his godfather??

I cannot wait to find out what will aggravate us in Book 6!!!

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popkin - Feb 24, 2004 8:00 am (#21 of 114)
mother
Harry ignored the present because he was afraid it would end up getting Sirius into trouble. Sirius needed to remind Harry about it and suggest he use it instead of trying to use the floo network.

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alexa - Feb 25, 2004 2:16 am (#22 of 114)
I think Sirius and Lupin were too happy talking about James, anyway Harry didn't have much time talking to them. Or perhaps Sirius didn't want Lupin to know he and James used the mirrors to communicate. Maybe the mirrors are objects of the Dark Arts and they prefer to keep it a secret.

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zelmia - Feb 25, 2004 5:34 pm (#23 of 114)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I think I have asked this before but I would like to ask this again, What if Harry did not manage to defeat Tom Riddle in CoS? Would there be 2 Voldies ?
Luanee, we have discussed this, and just about every other aspect of that confrontation, on The Very Secret Diary thread. You should check that out.

Why didn't Harry tell Dumbledore he was hearing voices??
Harry didn't think anyone would believe him. Not even Dumbledore.


Why didn't they use Priori Incantatem (?) on Lupin's wand to see Scabbers change into Pettigrew??
Because this is a rare, and even more rarely witnessed, phenomenon that only works when a wand meets "its brother." You can't simply point two wands at each other and have the Priori Incantatem reaction. The phenomenon also involves precise timing of the casting of the spells.


What terrible, awful thing would have happened if Harry refused to participate in the Tri-Wizard Tournament??
We just don't know. But it is a "magical contract" that clearly has dire consequences for anyone who would dare break it.

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mollis - Feb 26, 2004 7:11 am (#24 of 114)
Actually Zelmia, Prior Incantato is a spell that can be performed on any wand to "discover the last spell a wand performed" (GOF Ch.9). Mr. Diggory performed that spell on Harry's wand after Winky was found holding it underneath the spot where the dark mark was conjured.

Priori Incantatem occurs spontaneously when brother wands are forced to duel.

So really, "Why didn't they use Priori Incantatem (?) on Lupin's wand to see Scabbers change into Pettigrew??" is a valid question. The most likely explanation is that JKR may not have thought of that spell yet.

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haymoni - Feb 26, 2004 7:12 am (#25 of 114)
Did I get my spells mixed up?

What spell did the MOM wizards use on Harry's wand after it was found with Winky?

It showed that the Dark Mark had been conjured by Harry wand.

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FCBarca - Feb 26, 2004 7:17 am (#26 of 114)
Prior Incantato is the spell used by Diggory, whereas Priori Incantatem is the reverse spell effect. They are different spells.

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haymoni - Feb 26, 2004 7:21 am (#27 of 114)
Thank you, Thank you!

It has been 20 years since I took Latin in high school.

Should have know the endings of the words made a difference.

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VeronikaG - Feb 27, 2004 6:04 am (#28 of 114)
Maybe they couldn't find Lupin's wand to preform the spell on it? Lupin probably lost it when he transformed into the werewolf, and going out in the dark to get it would be dangerous with the angry dementors around. Harry and the others didn't know the spell, but Dumbledore must have. He can probably cast a patronus, so he could have gone out into the park and looked for the wand. It must have been lying right next to the Whomping Willow, and Lupin probably found it there, along with his robes, the next morning. But would the MOM allow DD to take the time to find it? Would they even have listened?

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haymoni - Feb 27, 2004 6:49 am (#29 of 114)
I wonder if wands have some sort of homing device on them. So many people seem to lose their wands but end up with them later on. I'm guessing this is discussed elsewhere, but I had wondered how Voldemort got his wand back. Maybe "Accio Wand" is enough.

One of my co-workers has just finished PS/SS and is 100 pages into CS. He's seen the movies and liked them, but now has more of the details.

He is asking a lot of "what if..." questions and it has been very difficult for me to keep my mouth shut!

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Chemyst - Feb 27, 2004 8:05 am (#30 of 114)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I think SHEla WOLFsbane is right. If Harry had been able to give blood willingly, if would have affected the spell. I don't think Wormtail's dread of losing his hand affected the spell since he'd already told V he'd do it; in that case he was just keeping his word, so it counts as freely given.

But of course, Harry was in no state of mind or heart for the "forcibly" stipulation to register. Which links to one of Dumbledore's most endearing qualities - he never gets flustered about anything. And as others have mentioned, this quality must be learned and comes with maturity. I wish JKR would write another little booklet for charity that would be DD's testimony of " How I Learned To Keep My Cool And Defeat The Dark Wizard Grindelwald."

(Oh My Goodness! Speaking of cool-- I just typed this up to copy & paste from another window which has better editing capabilities. The spell-check there gives the option of Rhineland for Grindelwald and Bumblebees' for Dumbledore's. How cool is that? Does "SPELL-check" check for dark secrets?)

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Feb 27, 2004 12:11 pm (#31 of 114)
Thank you Chemyst. There were other 'what if's' that I had, but that one, just keep nagging at me. Maybe because of Dumbledore's, and Sirius reaction when they are all back in Dumbledore's office. Dumbledore says something along the lines of, "Well, he found a way to get around that one." How many other ones are there???

Haymoni I think it would be interesting to hear some of your co- workers 'what if's'

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Feb 28, 2004 3:50 am (#32 of 114)
Okay, this really isn't a 'what if' but... Let's see... I can do this...

About the prophesy, everyone seems to think the line, "die at the hand of the other" (something like that) means either Voldies, or Harrys hand. Well... WHAT IF: 'the other' hand means wormtail? He owes Harry a life debt, and he does have that whole other silver hand thing going on... Thought I'd throw that out there too...

Idea's, questions, comments?

I must add that, I agree that Harry was in no state to mentally 'give' anything. I, however, was screaming, 'Just give it to him.' While reading...

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scully jones - Feb 28, 2004 7:43 pm (#33 of 114)
yeah right
I was thinking of that.... About the hand thing... But that only leaves room for Voldie to kill harry with Pettigrew's hand..... What about something Harry's hand can do?

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Chris. - Feb 28, 2004 8:58 pm (#34 of 114)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
What if... Harry had let Sirius and Lupin kill Wormtail? Would that mean Voldemort wouldn't have returned?

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Feb 29, 2004 12:06 am (#35 of 114)
I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only one to think that way chiaojones. However, I was actually thinking along the lines of wormtail some how killing Voldemort with his, "other hand." Thus, paying back his life debt to Harry, and redeeming himself. Not that I really think it's going to happen that way, it's just that the words, "other... hand" stuck out in my mind, as not quite right, in regards to what I wanted to think: Harry, and Voldemort show down. I don't know- that popped into my head, and there it will be until the end of the books, or I find out I'm wrong. Which ever comes first.

kingsley: I don't know... I thought so at first. Now I think it might have only taken a book longer. I don't know though, Voldemort did already have Crouch Jr. on his side by GoF, and I dare say that ol' Jr. would have willingly given his blood.

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Anna L. Black - Feb 29, 2004 1:04 pm (#36 of 114)
But Wormtail was the one who physically enabled LV's return - without him, LV would've been stuck somewhere in a forest in Albania, and Crouch Jr. wouldn't have met him.

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alexa - Feb 29, 2004 8:40 pm (#37 of 114)
Just thinking that Wormtail met Bertha Jorkins while searching for LV (wonder if I remembered that correctly), so maybe LV could have met Bertha himself and made use of her.

Anyway, Sibyll Trelawney had already predicted that a servant would return to LV, so I assume it is all fated that Lupin and Sirius would not kill Wormtail.

Or maybe LV has to be 'reborn' before he can be destroyed completely, otherwise, it may be not be possible to destroy a 'spirit'?

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haymoni - Mar 3, 2004 8:35 am (#38 of 114)
SHEla WOLFsbane - my co-worker has now read SS, COS & is half-way through POA. He is now taking my name in vain because he is staying up so late reading.

He asked me today if Arthur had to face an inquiry for enchanting a car, why didn't Sirius get in trouble for enchanting a motorcycle?

I'm sending him to the Lexicon ASAP.

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Jenny M. - Mar 3, 2004 10:01 pm (#39 of 114)
Perhaps Sirius used invisibility-to-muggles charms on his bike, which would have made it okay.

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Choices - Mar 8, 2004 11:41 am (#40 of 114)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Sirius might have faced charges if they could have found him.

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Blast - Mar 15, 2004 5:01 pm (#41 of 114)
I think I'm back!
Silver reflects light doesn't it maybe the silver hand deflects something back to Voldemort.

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Mar 16, 2004 11:11 pm (#42 of 114)
... While he yells, "Noooo" as he dives in front of Harry. I don't know if that is it or not, but I do think that there has to be something more about that 'hand'... just wish I knew what. When is book 6 going to be here???

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draco all the way - Apr 5, 2004 8:50 am (#43 of 114)
And the biggest 'what if' of all:

What if Dumbledore had just explained to Harry everything at the end of PS?

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vball man - Apr 5, 2004 9:42 am (#44 of 114)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I know that this is WAY OT, but in LOTR:

What if the dumb Black Riders had just taken the flying horses in the first book? Then they could have flown across that river, grabbed the ring and Ta-Da! Curtain falls.

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Apr 6, 2004 12:56 am (#45 of 114)
Ah, yes... But you see, across the river is the land of Rivendale, and the Elves...

It would certainly had made things easier if Dumbledore would have told Harry everything.

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Prefect Marcus - Apr 9, 2004 11:26 am (#46 of 114)
"Anyone can cook"
What happens if you Avada Kadavra a Dementor kissed body?

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dobbyiscool - Apr 9, 2004 11:34 am (#47 of 114)
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
The heart stops beating. The person's souls gone, so the body will then just die, right?

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zelmia - Apr 10, 2004 3:17 pm (#48 of 114)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
It's Rivendell not Rivendale.
I think if you AK a soul-less body, the body will be destroyed. But since the person's essence is long gone, they wouldn't care too much.

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Natasha - Apr 18, 2004 1:19 am (#49 of 114)
Actually, they wouldn't care at all. They have no soul, and therefore probably don't even care what happens. And for what if...What if Voldemort tried to attack Neville instead of Harry, Neville's parents might mot sacrifice themselves, because they might not fnow of the "Old magic" which saved Harry. So would Voldemort never died, and instead killed more people?

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Apr 18, 2004 10:17 pm (#50 of 114)
Welcome Natasha- Good question! I think that is the first time that has been asked here. I think that if Voldemort attacked Neville first he still would have gone after Harry, along with the rest of the Wizarding World. Really good question! Oh, the possibilities!

Acceber - Apr 19, 2004 6:02 am (#51 of 114)
Ruler of Omeletteheads
One from each book:

SS: What if Quirrel had never set the mountain troll loose?

CoS: What if Ginny hadn't started writing in Tom Riddle/Voldemort's diary?

PoA: What if Snape hadn't been knocked out in the Shrieking Shack?

GoF: What if Cedric had reached the Triwizard Cup before Harry?

OoP: What if Harry hadn't believed his dream of Sirius being tortured and just stayed at Hogwarts?

Ponder away.

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The Grey Lady - Apr 19, 2004 2:50 pm (#52 of 114)
Sup, Figgy?
Grrr, I had a nice long reply almost typed up when my sister closed the internet window.

If...Quirrel had never set the mountain troll loose: Hermione would not be their friend, thus, they wouldn't make it past Snape's potions riddle, discover the Baslisk, Harry would've died in the First Task of the Triwizard tournament, they wouldn't of caught Rita Skeeter, and Ron and Harry'd have failed their OWLs.

If...Ginny hadn't started writing in Tom's diary: the Baslisk would never of been set loose and the second book would end pretty quickly.

If...Snape hadn't been knocked out in the Shrieking Shack: He would of brought Sirius and Lupin to the dementors.

If...Cedric had reached the Triwizard Cup before Harry: Cedric touches the cup, vanishes, Harry is surprised but assumes it's part of the task, shoots up red sparks, get's "rescued" from the maze. And maybe, if LV feels like it, 1/2 an hour later Cedric's dead body appears infront of the maze.

If....Harry hadn't believed his dream of Sirius, or used the two way mirror: Harry stays at Hogwarts like a good boy, LV simmers angrily "Foiled again!", and doesn't come out into the open. The battle against Fudge and the Ministry continues, Umbridge remains headmaster, Sirius remains alive.

If...Dumbledore had told Harry about the Prophecy: Harry contiues life feeling separated (a marked man) from the world, and might not cement his friendship with Ron and Hermione. Then, in his 4th year he meets LV again and, instead of using defensive spells and running for his life, Harry attempts to fight back. And most likely dies if he wouldn't jump behind a gravestone.

Morbid, isn't it? Thank JKR all that happened.

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dobbyiscool - Apr 19, 2004 3:24 pm (#53 of 114)
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
If... Snape had died instead of James saving his life all those years ago? Poor Lupin would be depressed forever, Gina would never have met Snape, and who would be the 'bad guy' for HRH everytime something bad goes wrong at school? Alas, is a good thing James was there.

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Apr 19, 2004 9:11 pm (#54 of 114)
Acceber, thank you for your questions! Grey Lady, I'd have to agree with you about the Troll thing. If Quirrel would never had set the troll loose, Harry and Ron would never have befriended Hermionie. That little 'what if' right there, puts the importance of Hermionies' character into perspective doesn't it?

If Snape hadn't been knocked out... Oh, I'll have to wait until I have more time for that one!!! There are just so many things...

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Natasha - Apr 20, 2004 4:07 am (#55 of 114)
SS: What if Quirrel had never set the mountain troll loose?

SS: If Quirrel had never set loose the mountain troll, Hermione would't have become friends with Ron and Harry, Snape would never had had his leg bitten by Fluffy, Ron and Harry would have never suspected Snape...and at the Quidditch match Quirrel would have have gotten Harry of his broom because Hermione wern't friends with them, therefore she wouldn't have realised that Quirrel was hexing harry's broom, because she was unlikely to be there, because she doesn't like Quidditch. And if Harry lived through that, they would have been killed by the Devil's Snare because Hermione wasn't there!

If she hadn't written in Riddle's diary, Lockhart would still be DADA teacher! *gasps*

Lupin and Sirius would have been kissed, Pettigrew would have never been revealed, and probably escape anyway, HRH would have been suspended.

Cedric would have died, and Voldemort wouldn't have come back! And that means trouble for Crouch Jr....

Umbridge would still be Head! And at Hogwarts! If it was a choice between Sirius dying and Umbridge going ang Umbridge staying and Sirius staying.....I would choose...the latter!

Oh, and another What if to ponder... What if Umbridge had used the Cruciatus curse on Harry that day in her office? (Out of the fire)

Wow that was long (for me.)

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Acceber - Apr 20, 2004 7:30 am (#56 of 114)
Ruler of Omeletteheads
Glad to see one post (of mine for once) can have so much publicity. I'm honored.

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The Grey Lady - Apr 20, 2004 1:58 pm (#57 of 114)
Sup, Figgy?
If...Umbridge had used the Cruciatus Curse on Harry that day in her office: Harry gets tortured, then Hermione lies about the 'weapon'....or maybe someone else tells the truth before Hermione can...I don't think it'll make much of a difference...

SHEla WOLFsbane, thats exactly what was running through my head when I typed that up! At first, I didn't really see anything that would be different, then went "Oh duh!"

Here's a curious 'what if': Hagrid hadn't brought Grawp back to Hogwarts?

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Emily - Apr 20, 2004 2:56 pm (#58 of 114)
Harry and co. would probably have been killed by the centaurs.

What if Lupin had not been the DADA teacher in Harry's third year?

What if Snape didn't hate Harry because he'd gotten over something that happened 20 years ago and recognized that Harry was not his father?

Those are interesting ones, to me at least.

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Acceber - Apr 20, 2004 7:36 pm (#59 of 114)
Ruler of Omeletteheads
If Lupin hadn't been Harry's DADA teacher in third year...Harry wouldn't know how to do a Patronus and wouldn't have been able to fend off the dementors in the beginning of OoP. Thus, he'd be dead by now.

If Snape didn't hate Harry...we wouldn't have as many guesses as to what grade Harry would get on his Potions OWL . Nah, more than that, just I can't think of anything right now.

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dobbyiscool - Apr 21, 2004 12:40 pm (#60 of 114)
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
Wow, some of these really go in circles. Like the what if Lupin hadn't been the DADA teacher?

Then Harry wouldn't have been able to do a Patronus at the end of PoA. But then again, would he have been in the Forest if Lupin hadn't been there?
Sirius Black would have then just killed Peter when he got the chance, because Lupin wouldn't have been there to talk him out of it.
Peter wouldn't have gotten away (he'd have been dead), and Voldemort wouldn't have gotten his strength back, and Harry would have never needed the Patronus charm in OoP.
Sirius Black wouldn't have become friends with HRH because they wouldn't have knocked out Snape, they would have welcomed him for saving them from a murderer.
Harry would have never met the real Sirius
Sirius would have gotten the 'Kiss' because DD wouldn't have heard the whole story, and Harry and Hermione wouldn't have wanted to save him.

That's as far as I'm going to go, but that about covers it. Oh, I guess I could include Buckbeak would be dead, but you don't know if Harry and Hermione might have tried to save him anyway, and not Sirius.
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Elizabeth Cooper - Apr 23, 2004 5:55 pm (#61 of 114)
I've always wondered a "what if" ever since the sorting hat put Harry in Gryfindor but said he would do well in Slytherin. What if the sorting hat had put Harry in Slytherin? Would Snape continue to torment Harry and threaten to get him expelled or would Snape's competitive side win out to make use of whatever talents Harry develops as a Slytherin? Oh, the possibilities!

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timrew - Apr 23, 2004 6:20 pm (#62 of 114)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
What a bummer of a choice for Snape! To befriend Harry and make use of his worst enemy's son in Slytherin; or to torment him as he has done in the books so far. Nice idea!

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Apr 23, 2004 10:15 pm (#63 of 114)
Ooooh, Good questions Elizabeth! Poor Snape, even at the idea. I'm inclined to think that he'd still give Harry a hard time. Maybe saying things like, 'It's a shame that you can't use your seeker skills in my class to earn your house more points.' That or he'd reminded/ tell Harry that his dad was in Gryfindor.

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haymoni - Apr 24, 2004 1:08 pm (#64 of 114)
He would have allowed Harry to be the Neville of Slytherin.

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Tomoé - Apr 24, 2004 4:00 pm (#65 of 114)
Back in business
If Harry was sorted in the Slytherin, he would still be the shy boy he was in Private Drive, the Neville of the Slytherin like haymoni said, or the Remus of Malfoy's gang, if Draco succeed to make him hang around with him (Look how I can boss Harry Potter around!). Either way, Snape would know him better and Harry would be less confident in himself so Snape could consider him as a different person than James.

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haymoni - Apr 24, 2004 5:57 pm (#66 of 114)
I put this someplace else but I really think Draco was given the order by Daddy to make friends with Harry as soon as possible.

That would explain his haste to find Harry on the train. Too late though - Harry had already found a best friend. Thank goodness!

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Madame Librarian - Apr 25, 2004 8:47 pm (#67 of 114)
What if...

...DD had put his foot down and refused to let Harry enter the TriWizard Tournament despite his name being in the goblet? ("I don't care what anybody says, I'm afraid Harry is simply too young. No Harry, or the whole thing's cancelled!")

Ciao. Barb

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haymoni - Apr 26, 2004 10:23 am (#68 of 114)
Yes - I had asked that earlier too. What big terrible awful thing happens if a School Champion drops out?

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Chris. - Apr 26, 2004 10:58 am (#69 of 114)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Haymoni, they can't. That's why Dumbledore reminded the students of H-Warts, B-Batons, and Durmstrang to be sure before entering their names into the Goblet of Fire, because it was a wizarding contract.

But I suppose this is the 'What if...' thread

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haymoni - Apr 26, 2004 11:07 am (#70 of 114)
But what happens if they do drop out? What if Harry hadn't gotten help from Dobby and just sat there on the shores of the lake and then quit?

Does the Tournament end? Is he cursed for life? I'm guessing nobody knows what happens if you drop out because nobody ever has. You don't put your name in the Goblet if you aren't going to see the thing through.

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Madame Librarian - Apr 26, 2004 5:52 pm (#71 of 114)
Interesting. I don't think the other two schools would have cared if Harry didn't compete. They were against it anyways, weren't they? Later (after my dinner) I'm going to re-read the bit where the decision is final that Harry would compete. I can't remember how it was settled, or who's opinion prevailed (DD's?). If I discover anything interesting, maybe I'll post it on the appropriate thread.

Ciao. Barb

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Apr 27, 2004 10:02 pm (#72 of 114)
Along the lines of the tournament... So Harry had to 'compete'- did he have to try his best? Like Haymoni started, what if Harry would have just dove under water for a little while, then pops up, saying I can't find him.

Madame, let us know where you end up posting, if you do. Please, thank you.

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Natasha - Apr 27, 2004 11:13 pm (#73 of 114)
Then Moody/Crouch Jr. would haved turned something into a portkey in the end anyway, but then Cedric wouldn't have died.

I got one....What if Voldemort was NEVER BORN??

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draco all the way - Apr 28, 2004 12:15 am (#74 of 114)
Yes, well, that would totally defeat the purpose of the books' existence, wouldn't it Natasha. Which would mean no lexicon which would mean no staying up late to read up on highly obscure but incredibly interesting theories.

In short, your 'what if' is something I'd rather not consider. It's just too painful!

By the way I think your 'what if' is probably the biggest 'what if' possible. I challenge the forum people to prove me wrong!

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timrew - Apr 28, 2004 4:04 pm (#75 of 114)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
What if JKR had never written Harry Potter in the first place?

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Acceber - Apr 28, 2004 7:01 pm (#76 of 114)
Ruler of Omeletteheads
I'd be dead, Tim.

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draco all the way - Apr 28, 2004 10:24 pm (#77 of 114)
Ok so Tim has proven me wrong. that's the biggest 'what if'.

I don't think I'd be dead. Really really bored, but not dead.

EDIT: ooh, I have one- What if JKR was never born?

O.K I think we should stop the biggest 'what if' thing now.

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Denise P. - Apr 29, 2004 6:23 am (#78 of 114)
Ravenclaw Pony
This thread needs to get seriously back on track or risk being closed and deleted.

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Accio Sirius - Apr 29, 2004 10:47 am (#79 of 114)
Back to the old school Sirius
What if Harry did tell Lupin about the dog he's seen in Magnolia Crescent when he's in his office for the first time? (Chapter 8 of PoA). Lupin would have realized that it was probably Sirius in his Animagus form and would have probably come clean to Dumbledore. It would be doubtful if the truth about Sirius ever came out after that.

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Padfoot - Apr 30, 2004 3:07 pm (#80 of 114)
What if the fake Moody had not taught Harry how to resist the Imperious curse? Harry would have been out in that graveyard with no clue what Voldy was doing to him.

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SHEla WOLFsbane - May 7, 2004 11:01 pm (#81 of 114)
Did I miss something... because I still haven't figured out why the fake Moody taught Harry all that stuff. Is it just because that is something that the real Moody would have done? I agree that if Harry hadn't been taught how to resist the Imperious curse the graveyard scene would have been a whole lot shorter...

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Prefect Marcus - May 8, 2004 10:10 am (#82 of 114)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by May 8, 2004 10:10 am
I cannot disagree more. Being able to fight off the Imperious curse had no bearing whatsoever with what happened in the graveyard except making Vodlemort decide to end his little cats-paw game sooner than later.

Voldemort was putting on a show trying to impress his wavering followers. He was trying to prove he was the baddest guy around. Killing somebody under the Imperious Curse would be totally pointless and counter-productive. He only cast the I.C. to humilate Harry. When it didn't work, Voldemort knew he had just made a mistake and that was two mistakes too many! So he cut short his little game and went for the pay-off.

The only effect casting off the I.C. had on the outcome was it shortened the confrontation.

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Padfoot - May 10, 2004 11:51 am (#83 of 114)
Yes, Voldy was just putting on a show for the DE's by using Harry. But, if I were Harry, I wouldn't want to be a clueless performer. Harry knew what was going on and was able to fight the curse. Which is also good for Voldy to know, that Harry isn't a silly little boy anymore. Besides, Voldy could have done any number of things to Harry, including sending him back to kill DD. Ok, so that probably would not be successful, but it could have happened. Overall, Harry was able to keep his wits about him in that graveyard scene and I think learning about those curses helped him do that.

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haymoni - May 11, 2004 12:49 pm (#84 of 114)
I thought Barty/Moody taught him that to make sure he would survive the Tournament. He couldn't know what Karkaroff and Madame Maxime may have been willing to do to make sure their champions won.

If Barty failed Voldy, he would not be his most faithful servant and would not be rewarded beyond his wildest dreams (or whatever the quote was).

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SHEla WOLFsbane - May 11, 2004 11:20 pm (#85 of 114)
Ahhh, yes, to survive the tournament. That makes sense. I should have known/ remembered that!

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Romulus - May 18, 2004 8:50 am (#86 of 114)
Also, don't forget Moody was teaching the curse to the whole class at Dumbledore's instructions. He couldn't just gloss over it without teaching it to them properly, or his cover may have been blown.

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The Grey Lady - May 26, 2004 5:53 pm (#87 of 114)
Sup, Figgy?
This one gave me a shiver:

What if, CoS, Harry had not been able to prove Ginny's innocence with the diary?

...Ginny would of been expelled, but, years from now she would have been part of the legend. "...and fifty years later a girl in her 1st year re-opened the chamber and the attacks continued..." Ginny would of been thought of as an evil witch with dark powers for years afterwards. Mistaken as the heir of Slytherin or an (unbelievably young) Voldemort supporter. Also, Harry would of been thought of as a hero, at Ginny's expense.

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haymoni - May 27, 2004 10:11 am (#88 of 114)
I don't know about that. The blood message was written in 3rd person - "Her body will lie in the Chamber Forever" or whatever the exact words were - I think the staff felt that the Monster had taken Ginny - not that Ginny opened the chamber.

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Kevin Corbett - Jun 26, 2004 3:11 am (#89 of 114)
On the topic of CoS, I've always wondered what would've happened if Diary-Riddle had had sucked enough life out of Ginny to become self-existing. Even if Harry managed to get out of the Chamber alive, there would now be two Voldemorts. Not a nice prospect. I guess it sort of makes you wonder if Voldie ever thought, just before he finished putting a copy of himself into the diary, "Gee, I hope this memory doesn't suck the life out of some kid, become corporeal and try and overthrow me one day. That would really suck."

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The Grey Lady - Jun 26, 2004 7:30 am (#90 of 114)
Sup, Figgy?
Yeah, but it wouldn't matter if you overthrow yourself... To Voldemort, having Tom come to power would be like growing younger.

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coolbeans3131 - Jun 26, 2004 8:33 am (#91 of 114)
Maybe, but would you trust your teenage self and take orders from them? I don't know about you, but I was quite stupid at 17 (compared to now).

I can't see Voldemort taking orders from anyone. Not even himself.

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tracie1976 - Jun 26, 2004 8:41 am (#92 of 114)
"Harry needs her badly." JKR on Hermione...interview from The Times June 30, 2000 artwork for avatar by logansrogue at livejournal.com
I can see the Voldemort that was formed from that memory/diary arguing with the older Voldemort and pointing out what the older Voldemort did wrong. In turn the younger Voldemort saying "I'm doing this my way since you messed up so many times and you are still not ruling the wizarding world." or something like that. lol

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Kevin Corbett - Jun 27, 2004 1:03 am (#93 of 114)
But I think he would mind indeed---because if Tom was in charge, he wouldn't be. Unless he could posses the 16 year old version of himself (and I don't think Tom would just let him---if he had drained Ginny, he would have an independant consciousness), I think Tom would be either useless to Voldie, or utterly detrimental to his plans of global conquest, because it would be Tom taking over, not him.

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Anna L. Black - Jun 28, 2004 2:33 pm (#94 of 114)
JKR said on her site that the consequences of Tom becoming corporeal are: "... it would have strenghtened the present-day Voldemort considerably." So.... I guess she doesn't think they'll fight over who will take over the world

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Dr Filibuster - Jun 28, 2004 5:35 pm (#95 of 114)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Anna, she also said she can't give us a full answer until after book 7.

What if she meant his present day self would be more powerful....but eventually, when he became more powerful than ever before, there would be trouble?

What if.....Voldemort finds another way of replicating himself? I don't mean that he has a child, but some dark magic, hideously unatural way of providing an instant grown up clone. Would he be able to share the glory of his evilness with his other self/selves?

Can anyone live happily evil after?

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zelmia - Jul 19, 2004 12:12 am (#96 of 114)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Going back to the Troll uniting the Trio, I think that they would have become friends at some other point. They were destined to do so and so would have eventually. The Troll incident simply became the impetus they needed at that point. Had the Troll incident not occurred, then there would have been something else that brought them together.

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Hollywand - Jul 19, 2004 8:43 pm (#97 of 114)
Gryffindor
I'm ashamed to even post this thought, but what if Dumbledore had just zapped Harry/Voldemort in that precious instant in the MOM? DD would have solved a major, ongoing problem for himself and the rest of the world of wizards. Maybe this would have, though, ended the cycle of dark and light that gives rise to the wizarding world......but still.. :-)

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Chris. - Jul 19, 2004 8:47 pm (#98 of 114)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Dumbledore couldn't have. Only Harry can kill Voldemort, and vice versa.

But interesting thought: would Dumbledore kill Harry in a hope of the survival of the WW?

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Jul 20, 2004 10:40 pm (#99 of 114)
Alright, this really isn't a 'what if' but let's see what I can do: Karakoff, in GoF argues with 'Moody' about allowing Harry to remain a contestant. What if he really isn't as bad as we thought? Do you really think he didn't want Harry there just because then Hogwarts would then have two champions??? What do you think?

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haymoni - Jul 21, 2004 6:12 am (#100 of 114)
Madame Maxime argued just as strongly.

I think at that point, they all just wanted their schools to succeed and why should Hogwarts get 2 chances when they only get 1.

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contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 3:48 pm (#101 of 114)
Good Question! Made me think of the first clue in the prophecy paragraph in OOTP (pg 116).

Unpleasant-looking silver instrument, something like a many-legged pair of tweezers, which scuttled up Harry's arm like a spider when he picked it up, and attempted to puncture his skin:

I swear I have read about his instrument in Dumbledore's office, but I have not found it yet.

Could Dumbledore try it?

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2004 11:05 pm (#102 of 114)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"Could Dumbledore try it?"

I think at one time he could, now he has a hard decision...

`I cared about you too much,' said Dumbledore simply. `I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act.

`Is there a defence? I defy anyone who has watched you as I have - and I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined - not to want to save you more pain than you had already suffered. What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy? I never dreamed that I would have such a person on my hands.

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Siriusly - Aug 12, 2004 4:27 pm (#103 of 114)
If 16 year old Tom Riddle had materialized, wouldn't he have gone looking for Vapormort and then Vapormort would have a body, younger, faster , stronger and then could do the spell to give himself back his powers?

You know, we all say it, "if I knew then what I know now".

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Quidam - Aug 21, 2004 7:37 am (#104 of 114)
I'm curious about a few things (sorry if they're already here)

1. If Angelina hadn't gone to McGonagall to ask for help reforming the Gryffindor Quidditch team, would Umbridge still have found an excuse to pass educational decree #25? (the one she used to ban Harry, Fred and George from Quidditch)

2. When Ron, Ginny and Luna are acting as lookouts for Harry, so he can check if Sirius is at Grimmauld Place, and the Inquisitorial Squad (IS) capture them, I was wondering what would have happened if, instead of trying to stop Warrington from taking Ginny, Neville had gone and alerted some other DA members? If he did the DA would have easily outnumbered the IS and they could have got to the ministry a lot faster. Then again would the other DA members have been willing to help Sirius Black, who they believe to be a murderer and Voldemort's closest supporter?

3. If Filch was a wizard (as opposed to a Squib) would he still hate the students?

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SHEla WOLFsbane - Aug 21, 2004 8:27 am (#105 of 114)
First, Filch- Yes, I think that he would still hate the students. It seems to me that he hates them for there youth, more than there magic. That and the fact that he can't hang them up by there toes, so to say.

Hmmm, the other two are a little harder to guess at...

I think that Umbridge would still have found a way. It just would have taken her a little longer. It's been awhile since I've read the books but, how did she know everything that was going on again?

As for your second question, the only thing I can think of is that it would have taken too long to find someone. Even if they found someone who wouldn't have cared, or who would have believed them about Sirius. I think that time was the factor there.

How about you? Any theorys to your own questions?

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Quidam - Aug 21, 2004 10:13 pm (#106 of 114)
In answer to my own questions;

1. I don't think Umbridge had any intention of letting the Gryffindor Quidditch team reform. So if Angelina didn't go to McGonagall for help, the team wouldn't have played and finding an excuse to ban Harry and the twins wouldn't have been an issue.

2. I think it would have been easy enough for Neville to find someone to go and help Harry (we know Dean and Seamus were both in the common room, and there was probably several students in the great hall because it was close to dinner time) but I don't think any of them would have been prepared to help Sirius.

3. Filch would still hate students but maybe not as much. We would probably see lots of bouncing ferrets.

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Maddest Dragon - Aug 23, 2004 5:16 pm (#107 of 114)
If Filch were a wizard instead of a Squib, he probably wouldn't have such a menial job as Hogwarts caretaker, because he'd qualify for so much more. I think his hatred of the students is mostly envy.

My big what-if question is this: What if Hogwarts closed?

They threaten to shut it down in CoS. And I wondered where all the students were supposed to go in that case. There's no other school of magic in Britain, apparently. And Hogwarts doesn't teach foreign languages, so the students would be extremely ill prepared to go to a wizarding school in another country. Even if there are wizarding schools in English speaking countries such as America or Australia, would they be similar enough for Hogwarts students to be able to do the work? They might have some completely different subjects--remember Malfoy saying in GoF that Durmstrang taught Dark Arts, while Hogwarts only taught Defense Against the Dark Arts? And that's assuming that the schools would admit British students, and that all of them could afford to go.

And, since none of the students have any Muggle secondary education, they'd be ill equipped for Muggle schools. Imagine a fourth year Hogwarts student trying to pass tests in math and literature at the level expected for their age! Not to mention negotiating the Muggle world if they came from wizarding families.

And what about future jobs? Without Hogwarts, they couldn't get the education they'd need for jobs in the Wizarding World, and, since they'd be too far behind to get a Muggle education, they'd be locked out of most Muggle jobs, too. And would the wizarding community tolerate a generation being forced to make their living as Muggles? Probably not--but what would they do about it if they closed Hogwarts?

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Siriusly - Aug 23, 2004 5:35 pm (#108 of 114)
This made me wonder what if...

"Filch was the Hogwarts caretaker, a bad tempered, FAILED WIZARD (emphasis mine) who waged a constant war against the student...."

I joked earlier about being a janitor in a school full of teenage wizards being "worse than death".

I always wondered why he had a Quickspell letter. I mean if your a squib (non-magic child of a wizard) how are you going to learn magic?

Is he Grindelwald? Is this why he always wants to torture people?

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Choices - Aug 23, 2004 6:25 pm (#109 of 114)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I thought the "many legged silver instrument" that ran up Harry's arm and tried to bite him was at the OotP headquarters/the Black home when they were decontaminating it. I could be wrong though - that's just where I remember it.

Here's a big what if??? .....Harry looks just like his father, he has his father's magical talent and talent at Quidditch, he has his father's talent for rule breaking, he even has the same patronus as his father. What if ..... James is Harry?? Somehow James or James' body went back to his baby state - perhaps in the bell jar at the MOM Dept. of Mysteries (we were shown that process for a reason) - and he took the real baby Harry's place to protect him. This theory has huge holes in it, but it's fun to wonder.... What if......?

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Parrothead Patronus - Aug 27, 2004 8:06 pm (#110 of 114)
The weather is here.....wish you were beautiful
(1). What if Sirius got to the Potter's house before Hagrid?

(2). What if James never gave Dumbledore his Invisibility Cloak?

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Maddest Dragon - Aug 27, 2004 9:12 pm (#111 of 114)
Did James give Dumbledore his Invisibility Cloak? Perhaps he left it somewhere (an Order meeting, maybe) and Dumbledore found it and didn't get a chance to give it back to him. Maybe he loaned it to someone else who gave it to Dumbledore to return, and, again, Dumbledore never got a chance to return it. Maybe he put it away for safekeeping, somewhere that Dumbledore had access to.

In any case, it doesn't make sense to me that James would have given Dumbledore his invisibility cloak. James had no idea that his house was going to be destroyed, he was going to die but Harry live, and the cloak would have to be someplace safe so Harry could have it later. He would have needed the cloak himself--useful in his Order work, and really useful for someone going into hiding. The reason for giving (or loaning) it to Dumbledore would be that Dumbledore had need of it.... but it seems that DD has plenty of magic of his own, can disappear if necessary, cloak or no cloak (maybe he even has an invisibility cloak of his own). Anyhow, I think it's more likely that either James loaned it to someone else and it fell into Dumbledore's possession later, or he left it somewhere by mistake and Dumbledore found it.

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Parrothead Patronus - Aug 27, 2004 9:24 pm (#112 of 114)
The weather is here.....wish you were beautiful
SS- pg 250- U.S. "Your father left this in my possession before he died. It is time it was returned to you. Use it well. A Very Merry Christmas to you."

That's what the note which was with the cloak stated. Later Dumbledore tells Harry he sent it.

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Maddest Dragon - Aug 27, 2004 9:35 pm (#113 of 114)
Thanks, Parrothead--I don't have a copy of SS anymore.

Hmmm... if James hadn't left his cloak with Dumbledore, Harry's escapades would be greatly curtailed, wouldn't they?

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Kasse - Sep 23, 2004 6:38 pm (#114 of 114)
Choices just a correction: Harry does not have the same patronus as James. Harry's patronus was James' animagus.

Also I do not think James could be Harry what about the eyes? The book is constantly mentioning Lilly's eyes

Just my thoughts...