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Who's Going to Inherit 12 Grimmauld Place?
Elanor Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:37 am
Who's Going to Inherit 12 Grimmauld Place?
Czarina - Apr 22, 2004 8:11 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:45 pm
Now that Sirius is dead, who will inherit his family mansion? It still belonged to him -- the Order was just using it as its headquarters. It is probably fair to say that Sirius left the house to somebody, or planned to. Perhaps he willed it to the Order (ie. Dumbledore) or to Harry.
However, Sirius was not planning to die. Being around 35 or so, and a very self-confident man, there might have been no reason in his mind to will the property to anyone. He was the last of the Blacks (at least in his family line according to primogeniture), so there is no obvious heir.
To consider some candidates:
Dumbledore and the Order -- they are currently using the house as their headquarters and it is probably a very good location. However, they have little connection to the family and if Sirius did not explicitly leave them the house, they do not have much claim to it.
Harry Potter -- he is Sirius's godson and the closest thing to an actual son that he ever had. He too is not related by blood (as far as we know) and unless there is a will signed by Sirius leaving Harry the house, he has little claim to it.
Distant Black relative -- they may have never set foot in the house in their lives, or they might have hated it and want nothing do with it. The only claim they have is by family ties. The house, however, might have a spell on it that dictates that only a member of the family may inherit it. I would not put that past the Blacks.
Order of Inheritance(according to primogeniture) at the death of Sirius's parents:
1. Sirius Black (eldest son, though he had been disowned so his brother might have taken precedence over him)
2. Regulus Black
3. Sirius's uncle and father of the three cousins, assuming he was still alive
4. 5. 6. Bellatrix Lestrange, Andromeda Tonks (formerly), Narcissa Malfoy
7. any children of Bellatrix
8. Draco Malfoy
Hmmm...
Who's Going to Inherit 12 Grimmauld Place Thread Index
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "Archived Thread to be Worked" folder of the WC forum. Elanor
Czarina - Apr 22, 2004 8:11 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:45 pm
Now that Sirius is dead, who will inherit his family mansion? It still belonged to him -- the Order was just using it as its headquarters. It is probably fair to say that Sirius left the house to somebody, or planned to. Perhaps he willed it to the Order (ie. Dumbledore) or to Harry.
However, Sirius was not planning to die. Being around 35 or so, and a very self-confident man, there might have been no reason in his mind to will the property to anyone. He was the last of the Blacks (at least in his family line according to primogeniture), so there is no obvious heir.
To consider some candidates:
Dumbledore and the Order -- they are currently using the house as their headquarters and it is probably a very good location. However, they have little connection to the family and if Sirius did not explicitly leave them the house, they do not have much claim to it.
Harry Potter -- he is Sirius's godson and the closest thing to an actual son that he ever had. He too is not related by blood (as far as we know) and unless there is a will signed by Sirius leaving Harry the house, he has little claim to it.
Distant Black relative -- they may have never set foot in the house in their lives, or they might have hated it and want nothing do with it. The only claim they have is by family ties. The house, however, might have a spell on it that dictates that only a member of the family may inherit it. I would not put that past the Blacks.
Order of Inheritance(according to primogeniture) at the death of Sirius's parents:
1. Sirius Black (eldest son, though he had been disowned so his brother might have taken precedence over him)
2. Regulus Black
3. Sirius's uncle and father of the three cousins, assuming he was still alive
4. 5. 6. Bellatrix Lestrange, Andromeda Tonks (formerly), Narcissa Malfoy
7. any children of Bellatrix
8. Draco Malfoy
Hmmm...
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Last edited by Elanor on Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Who's Going to Inherit 12 Grimmauld Place (Post 1 to 50)
Elanor Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:42 am
Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 22, 2004 9:37 am (#1 of 365)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Czarina, I had considered this as well. I think that 12 Grimmauld Place is important enough to the Order that DD would have taken steps to ensure its passing to Harry or the Order itself upon Sirius' death. Also, Sirius' single-minded desire to keep Harry safe probably would have included securing Harry's future. I imagine the house and the contents of Sirius' vault at Gringotts (which by the way, has it ever been discussed is the vault next to the one DD kept the Sorcerer's Stone in?) will have been willed to Harry. Sirius, better than anyone, was aware of the dangers he faced. I don't think his bravado would have eclipsed his practical concern for Harry's welfare. For all of Sirius' impulsiveness, I think he would have addressed this issue head on. At least I hope so.
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 9:50 am (#2 of 365)
We don't know exactly what wizarding laws regarding inheritance are, but Czarina is pretty much correct as to how this would work in the muggle world. The Potters named Sirius as Harry's guardian, but Harry was never formally adopted so its true he has little claim to the house. I cannot believe that Dumbledore (who's foresight and judgment has admittedly come under scrutiny lately) would not have thought to take precautions regarding ownership of the Order headquarters in the event of Sirius's death. I would guess that either the Order or Harry would become the owner.
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Joanna S Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 11:18 am (#3 of 365)
Little Bobik
Edited by Apr 22, 2004 11:20 am
My guess is that 12 Grimauld Place and so Sirius' fortune stored in Gringots are and long ago were formally bequeathed to Harry, remember that Sirius took money from Gringots using Harry's name, it suggests that Harry does have some formal rights there.
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 11:41 am (#4 of 365)
remember that Sirius took money from Gringots using Harry's name--Johanna S. Lupin
When did Sirius do this? I recall that he used money from his own vault to buy the Firebolt to give to Harry, but I don't think Harry's name was in the trasaction with Gringotts.
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Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 1:33 pm (#5 of 365)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Loopy Lupin, Sirius told the Owl Office to take the money from his vault but he did use Harry's name.
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Joanna S Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 2:25 pm (#6 of 365)
Little Bobik
Yes, that's what I meant, thanks Kingsley
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 3:33 pm (#7 of 365)
Interesting. I'll have to review that in the book because if he, as the Godson, has some sort of legal right to Sirius's money then it would seem to me that he would inherit the house, will or no will.
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Dumbly-dorr - Apr 22, 2004 5:46 pm (#8 of 365)
I took that passage to mean that the Firebolt order was placed in Harry's name but the money was taken (separately, not under Harry's name) from Gringotts out of Sirius's vault. "There is something I never got around to telling you during our brief meeting. It was I who sent you the Firebolt--.... "Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Post for me. I used your name but told them to take the gold from my own Gringott's vault. Please consider it thirteen birthdays' worth of presents from our godfther." PoA, US, p 433.
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Tomoé - Apr 22, 2004 7:02 pm (#9 of 365)
Back in business
Is Sirius officially dead? Can they take back his corpse from behind the Veil? Can they prove he passed away?
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 23, 2004 4:44 am (#10 of 365)
Yes, I re-read the passage last night myself Dumbly-dorr. Frankly, I don't know what it means. So, a wanted mass murderer can send a note to the goblins and have a Firebolt paid for? The goblins aren't careless so I assume there is a password or something which means that Swiss banks would have nothing on the goblins in terms of secrecy since being on the run apparently doesn't stop one from being able to transact business!
Tomoe-- Yeah, I think Sirius is pretty dead.
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Catherine - Apr 23, 2004 6:32 am (#11 of 365)
Canon Seeker
I may have misunderstood Tomoe's question, but I think what Tomoe was asking was about the "legal" aspect of Sirius's death. For example, in the Muggle world, a death certificate is required for monies to be paid from a life insurance policy. Her question seemed to be about "proving" Sirius is dead, since there is no body. We all know that Sirius died because we saw it, but is there some sort of "official" declaration that needs to be made?
Tomoe, apologies if I misunderstood your question.
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 23, 2004 7:29 am (#12 of 365)
Mmm. That's actually a good question (and I think that is what Tomoe meant). Maybe the WW doesn't need certificates and the like. Sirius's "energy" is gone, maybe that's enough.
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Czarina - Apr 23, 2004 7:36 am (#13 of 365)
Or maybe, to prove that Sirius is dead, all the wizarding world needs are confirmations from X number of witnesses. We know Harry and Lupin saw him fall through the Veil (and Bellatrix, though I assume she is hiding) and were there others? I would assume that if, say, 6 people saw you die and their accounts of your death are basically identical, you would be considered dead.
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prof sprout - Apr 23, 2004 7:58 am (#14 of 365)
Well, I don't know if they want to say the Lupin and Harry saw him die. He is still considered a mass murderer, and they could use that saying they were hiding him. I doubt that though because there will be a shake up at the ministry. So they are not out to get Harry anymore. But you never know.
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S.E. Jones - Apr 23, 2004 8:46 am (#15 of 365)
Let it snow!
I think, considering the Wizarding world all knows that Dumbledore was now telling the truth all that time about Voldemort's return and considering how they viewed Dumbledore before, they'd take his word for it if he said, especially in front of the Wizengamot (as in made a legal/official statement), that he saw Sirius go through the veil.
Also, I think Sirius would've given some forethought to the fact that he could've died. I mean, James and Lily thought enough ahead to name him Harry's godfather (and I think they meant it in the non-Catholic/religious way, i.e. they intended him to be Harry's legal guardian should they die), so we know that there was some realization among the friends that something could happen. If nothing else, James and Lily may have asked Sirius to make a will just to be sure that Harry was taken care of after he took him should something then happen to Sirius (I think that made sense).
P.S. Question, Czarina, what does this mean: Andromeda Tonks (formerly)? Formerly what? She's still married to Ted Tonks....
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Tomoé - Apr 23, 2004 9:57 am (#16 of 365)
Back in business
That was exactly what I meant Catherine, how legally prove that Sirius is dead. If he's not legally prove dead, there's no need to wonder who will inherit the house, the motorbike or the Gringott vault. Since he still considered as a mass murderer, it won't be easy to prove him dead without a body.
I like your theory Sarah, about the Potters strongly suggest Sirius to make a will, just in case. After all, he was officially the Potters' Secret Keep and was likely to get abducted and killed.
P.S. : I'm not sure about the number of witnesses, would 30 DE telling the see Voldemort die be enough to consider him as truly dead?
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 23, 2004 10:19 am (#17 of 365)
P.S. : I'm not sure about the number of witnesses, would 30 DE telling the see Voldemort die be enough to consider him as truly dead? -- Tomoe
Not sure. One Harry was not enough to consider him truly alive.
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Tomoé - Apr 23, 2004 10:31 am (#18 of 365)
Back in business
I think they will need something more official than any number of witnesses and I'm not even sure that a body alone would be sufficient, they are wizards after all and Sirius is believed to be the Dark Lord apprentice in Dark Magic, he could have trick that out.
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S.E. Jones - Apr 23, 2004 11:04 am (#19 of 365)
Let it snow!
I still think Dumbledore's word could do it if given in some sort of court-like setting, like giving testimony. He was highly thought of prior to Voldemort's return and the wizarding world will most likely want to turn to him and lean on him even more now that they know he was right and they're all scared....
EDIT: Oooh, just thought of something else. The MoM may want everyone to think he's dead. People are going to be scared with Voldemort back and, even though they have some DEs in custody, they may not stay there and who knows how many more he's recruited... Declaring Sirius dead would be like saying "we got one" to the public who still believes he was in with Voldemort. I'm afraid we may not see Sirius name cleared, or at least, not until Book 7 concludes.
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mike miller - Apr 23, 2004 11:49 am (#20 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
A key point here is whether Sirius left a will. It makes sense, in the case of war, that those doing the fighting take the necessary steps prior to battle. I've been watch "Band of Brothers" again and it's mentioned every time they jump behind enemy lines. Sirius had plenty of time being cooped up in 12 GP to draw up a will.
I brought up this prediction on the "Will Harry Return to 12 GP thread and I'll bring it back here. Harry will have his shortest stay ever at #4 Privet because he will be summoned to the reading of Sirius's will where he will learn that he has inherited 12 GP. Between Dumbledore and Lupin helping to go threw some of Sirius's effects, Harry will start to learn more about his parent's past and his family. There may also be some private tutoring before the start of term.
Harry has started to mature, but has a long way to go. Coming to terms with Sirius's death, his parent's deaths and learning more about where he comes from, so to speak, will help him down that path. This also opens up some interesting side stories; a furious Narcissa and threatened legal action, a trip to Godric's Hollow and more one-on-one conversations with Dumbledore.
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Czarina - Apr 24, 2004 6:44 am (#21 of 365)
S.E. -- I meant that Andromeda was formerly in line to inherit the Black family fortune, but since she married Ted Tonks, she was disowned. So I would assume she (and any descendants, like Nymphadora) would be skipped over.
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S.E. Jones - Apr 24, 2004 7:42 am (#22 of 365)
Let it snow!
Ah, that makes much more sense. Thanks for clarifying...
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Madame Librarian - Apr 25, 2004 2:38 pm (#23 of 365)
Ages and ages ago I suggested--not completely seriously--that Regulus Black will suddenly be discovered alive, and show up at the will reading to claim his inheritance. Poor Doris Purkiss will be so confused. There's bound to be an article in The Quibbler about it.
On a more serious note, maybe as Wizards are inducted (?) into the Order they are advised to make a will or leave their last wishes in writing.
And, as to how Sirius could withdraw money from Gringotts while on the lam, I think the Goblins are ultra-discreet and have a reputation for keeping a depositor's indentity secret. Kind of like Swiss banks. His big problems were dealing on the sly with more mundane things like using the Owl Post, etc.
Ciao. Barb
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Star Crossed - Apr 25, 2004 3:01 pm (#24 of 365)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I always took that as the goblins could not care less if you were dead, alive, a murderer, or kind. They just want the money.
Which is kind of the opposite, but oh well.
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mononoke - May 2, 2004 3:10 am (#25 of 365)
I like your theory Mike.It does make some sense.Learning his parent's past,Narcissa's appearance in the will reading(plus Draco)...that would make book6 a lost&found-history treasure for all Potties.^_^
About how to officially declare the death,in Wormtail's case, the remaining of his finger and crime-scene MOM officers (hmm...plus some muggle witnesses) there can state Mr.Peter Pettigrew's heroic death. (Hey,they didn't even know what really happened!)
OK,I'm getting confused now and I can't remember why I brought up Wormtail here.This seems off-topic +_+
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PIJ - May 28, 2004 3:42 am (#26 of 365)
I think that I have read that Dumbledore is the Secret Keeper for the Order of the Phoenix and 12 Grimauld Place. Hence it doesn't matter that Sirius is dead as to all intents and purposes 12 Grimauld Place does not exist unless you are a member of the Order.
Not sure if the charm works on Blacks family members but one would think so.
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Mellilot Flower. - May 28, 2004 5:24 am (#27 of 365)
Pixie led
Now there is a point, the discussion of who inherits 12 Grimauld place probably will never come up in the books- or at least not untill Dumbledore removes the fidelius charm. Also, I'm pretty sure that when the house became head quarters for the Order the house became the orders property, more or less. Could be wrong.
And I don't think that bringing wormtail into this argument is off topic as its an example of a death being declared without a body and based soley on the evidence of muggle witnesses and a finger. Note here however that the witnesses would have had nothing to lose nor gain from the death of Wormtail, and as far as anyone could tell at that point Wormtail had nothing to gain from his death. However if it is believed that Sirius is dead whether he is or not the search for him is going to relax considerably.
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TGF - Jun 9, 2004 11:52 am (#28 of 365)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I think Sirius would have made a will. Not only because he was in the Order fighting against Voldemort, but also because he was on the run from Dementors all the time...
The question is, would he have given Grimmauld Place to Harry? He didn't exactly *like* the thing, after all, I mean, it wouldn't exactly be doing him a favour to give him the house. And what would Harry do with it? He isn't going to live in it. More likely it's just left for general use of the Order.
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mike miller - Jun 9, 2004 12:24 pm (#29 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
I think the will serves a couple of purposes. First, the read of the will gets Harry out of #4 quickly. The will probably states something like "I give all my worldy possessions to my godson Harry Potter".
The second plot device served is the opportunity to explore the back-story. Harry could be looking through some of Sirius's effects with, say Remus, and asks about a photograph or artifact. DD could also provide insight into the night James and Lily were murdered (maybe even a trip to Godric's Hollow).
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Magical Max - Jun 11, 2004 4:21 am (#30 of 365)
Another interesting point is; if Harry inherits Sirius's house, what to do about Kreacher? They can't let him go, he knows too much about the order. If released, he would run straight to Narcissa Malfoy and tell all. Hermione would be outraged but the order might have no choice but to eliminate Kreacher for security reasons. After all this IS war. Besides I doubt Kreacher would ever take orders from Harry even if he was the inheritor.
Now if Harry asked Dobby... Dobby would leap at the chance to look after Harry's house for him. That would be an interesting battle - house-elf vs house-elf.
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Diagon Nilly - Jun 11, 2004 11:12 am (#31 of 365)
Ha ha, I just had a funny thought. Let's say it's discovered where Harry's staying and the information puts the Dursley's in danger too. If Harry inherets Grimmauld place, it could be decided to move the Dursley's there for their safety as the house is secret-kept. Plus, as long as Harry has a place he can call home with his mother's family, he's safe. Could you imagine Petunia cooking ANYTHING in that kitchen? Or Vernon's first run-in with a doxie...
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S.E. Jones - Jun 11, 2004 3:41 pm (#32 of 365)
Let it snow!
Plus, as long as Harry has a place he can call home with his mother's family, he's safe.
Unfortunately, it's "as long as Petunia (one of his mother's blood) can call the place home, he's safe" not him. It doesn't matter where he calls home, just where she does.
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 13, 2004 9:59 am (#33 of 365)
Crazed Writer
This is a neat discussion! Lots of good points.
One question we don't know the answer to is: Can a "convicted murderer" make a will that will be honored in the Wizarding World? If the answer is yes, then I think you guys who are saying that Sirius would have taken care of that are right on the money. But if the answer is no...
Sirius was only Harry's godfather for 15 months before he was sent to prison, and he might not have made a will in that time (he was pretty young). Sirius' mother might still have been alive then, and he might only have inherited the house because no one else wanted it (You'd think he would have been disowned, too). Now that Sirius is dead, Kreacher is probably no longer tied to the house, and he probably has gone over to Bellatrix or Narcissa and told them everything. Granted that the house is hidden, if the house stays in the Black family line, the MoM might make the Order give it up.
Personally, I REALLY hope 12 GP goes to Harry or the Order, but since the next book has to be the one where everything goes wrong and breaks down so that things can be put together in book 7, I wouldn't put it past JKR to take the house away from the Order, so they've got to leave. (Sorry for the pessimism. Hey, wonder where the Order's Headquarters was for the last war?)
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TGF - Jun 13, 2004 11:04 am (#34 of 365)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I think now that Voldemort has been exposed, Fudge's government is on its last legs, and Dumbledore's voice stands as a voice of truth again, Sirius will likely have all charges against him post-humanously dropped.
And I also doubt that Dumbledore is going to let Kreacher just leave regardless of who owns him.
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Lady Nagini - Jun 13, 2004 1:08 pm (#35 of 365)
Edited by Jun 13, 2004 1:09 pm
But originally, the story of Sirius turning traitor had nothing to do with Fudge's corrupt government or the loss of respect for DD. It was, in fact, the only logical conclusion to draw from the facts. There was no spin on it. Remember, even DD thought Sirius was guilty.
So I can't see the public readily accepting his innocence, in which case a will might be difficult to honor.
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MoaningMyrtle101 - Jun 13, 2004 5:04 pm (#36 of 365)
Edited by Jun 13, 2004 5:06 pm
But now that Fudge's government has collapsed and Harry and Dumbledore aren't believed to be loony anymore, their version of events will be believed. Harry, according to wide public opinion, has more reason to hate Sirius than any other living person. Why, then, would he want to drop all charges against him and set him free from Ministry persual if his story is not true? Why would he want to convict Pettigrew, one of his parents' best friends, of their murder, without strong evidence that he was right? You'd have to be trying very hard to ignore that. And now the general public isn't trying very hard anymore. I feel certain, this time, that the wizarding community will believe Harry when he tells the truth about Sirius and Peter.
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Lady Nagini - Jun 14, 2004 12:51 am (#37 of 365)
Harry, according to wide public opinion, has more reason to hate Sirius than any other living person.
Does the public know the details about Sirius' betrayal, actually? Now that I think about it, it seemed to be somewhat of a secret in PoA...
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mike miller - Jun 14, 2004 7:52 am (#38 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
The public does not know the details, only that Sirius killed a dozen muggles and Peter when confronted about his alledged alligence to Voldemort. I don't think public opinion has any bearing on the validity of Sirius's will (assuming he left one).
Unless I'm mistaken, the will of a convicted criminal is still a valid legal document.
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Lady Nagini - Jun 14, 2004 1:07 pm (#39 of 365)
Under a government that doesn't send soul-sucking monsters after teenaged boys, yes, it is. Under Fudge's government...
I know JKR said in an interview that we'll see a new Minister in book 6, but she didn't specify when. If it's at the end, Fudge and his cronies might prevent the execution of Sirius' will.
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Detail Seeker - Jun 14, 2004 2:02 pm (#40 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
A few words, that may have been said before:
GP12 was an ownerless house, when the Order took it. There was only Kreacher. Of all the persons, who could have claimed GP12, Sirius was the least likely: He was erased from the family tree, which could be interpreted as a disinheriting. His brother is dead (or at least supposed to be). His cousins Narcissa and Bellatrix seem to be more likely to have been promised the house - but they did not claim it. So nobody in the wizarding world cared for this unplottable and heavily protected house until Sirius took it. We were not told, how, but I guess, he knew where it was and how to enter (Interesting, none of his parents performed a Fidelius to protect it against him), so he entered and hosted the Order afterwards.
Nobody except the eye-witnesses and those, they told knows, that Sirius is dead. And even if, it seems, that the MoM does not care much about inheritance regulations - as seen by the state of GP12 before Sirius took it. So, the legal status of this house may be of minor interest, unless Sirius made a will. And as there is no proof of Sirius´death, it might be difficult to go the legal way. So, keeping the state as unclear, unregulated as it is, might even be better for the Order and for Harry. If there is a will in Harry´s favour, he may claim it as soon as there is a "positive" MoM. If not, who will contest his or the Order´s factual ownership. Those not introduced by Dumbledore would not even find it.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2004 1:14 pm (#41 of 365)
I find it unlikely that the Malfoy's would be desirous to take possession of Grimmauld Place even though it is unplottable because it is likely that the same could be said of Malfoy Manor in Wiltshire.
I also find it highly unlikely that if indeed Sirius did leave a will he would have left it to either Narcissa or Belliatrix given then loathing and distaste he had towards them. I would argue that it is more likely that if indeed Sirius left a will, I believe he would have have left Grimmauld Place to one of 5 possible candidates
1. Andromeda Tonks his favorite cousin and her Daughter Nymphadora 2. Arthur Weasley as another cousin 3. Harry Potter as his godson 4. Remus Lupin as his best friend 5. Albus Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix
Best Regards, Nathan Zimmermann
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 19, 2004 6:51 pm (#42 of 365)
Crazed Writer
Certainly, Sirius would NEVER have left Grimmauld Place to Bellatrix or Narcissa! But I said that it might REVERT to them without a legal will. The Malfoys would have absolutely no interest in a broken-down old house UNLESS they found out they could deprive the Order of their HQ that way! And if Kreacher were free, he would certainly tell them that.
As far as Dumbledore not letting Kreacher go, Dumbledore wasn't at Grimmauld Place when Sirius died. Would Kreacher know if Sirius was dead? Is their enslavement a magical one, something Kreacher could feel?
I'm guessing Dumbledore used his fancy watch to trip back a little in time to get to Harry more quickly after the MoM affair. (He said in front of Fudge that he would see Harry in half an hour, but from the description it couldn't have been more than a few minutes.) It's possible he took a detour to Grimmauld Place, but he might have been pretty focussed on Harry, so he might have thought of it too late.
Remember, house-elves have very powerful magic, and they can apparate!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2004 7:19 pm (#43 of 365)
It seems to me unlikely that any member of the Order would have left no will especially in light of what happened during the 1970's
We know that the Potters made the provision that Sirius Black was to act as Harry's Godfather. It seems to me that Harry being left with Petunia was the last possible recourse given the fact that Sirius was suspected of the murder and therefore would have made an unsuitable guardian for Harry. But it seems to me that in naming Sirius Harry's Godfather seems to indicate that several of the members of the order had made provision for the care of their children.
Best Regards, Nathan Zimmermann
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Isenduil - Jun 19, 2004 10:23 pm (#44 of 365)
Well does Kreacher have to stay with the house? If he does, does that mean that Kreacher could be Harry's?
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S.E. Jones - Jun 19, 2004 10:43 pm (#45 of 365)
Let it snow!
Kreacher didn't leave the house when his mistress (Mrs. Black) died. I wonder if he will want to stay with the house this time as well. He might even try to keep the Order out, and sort of "re-claim" the house in Mrs. Black's memory, which could be a real problem....
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 22, 2004 7:05 am (#46 of 365)
Could the Malfoy's have to move into Grimmauld Place? With Lucius's exposure as a Death Eater, could they have their bank account frozen and be forced to move out of the mansion?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 22, 2004 7:41 am (#47 of 365)
I doubt the Malfoy's would be forced to move into Grimmauld Place because I doubt that Lucius with his exposure as a Death Eater would want to be in the vicinity of London with Auurors on high alert. In the midist of Wiltshire Malfoy Mansion is safer. As to Malfoy's assets being frozenit is possible although it is a probability that he has assets in other Wizard Banks across Europe.
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Tomoé - Jun 22, 2004 9:35 am (#48 of 365)
Back in business
Sirius Black had free access to his account, I can't see why Lucius's account have to be frozen when Sirius's wasn't.
Edit : Especially since Lucius have a wife and a kid. But the decisions of the MoM are not always logical ...
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Padfoot - Jun 23, 2004 3:18 pm (#49 of 365)
Well does Kreacher have to stay with the house? If he does, does that mean that Kreacher could be Harry's?
What would Harry do with a house elf? Kreacher needs to remain at 12GP because he knows too much. However I see DD dealing with Kreacher one way or another so that Harry doesn't have to.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 23, 2004 3:45 pm (#50 of 365)
I seem to recall that Kreacher was bound not to reveal anything about the Order. But, that Sirius did not include facts about the nature of his relationship with Harry as he did not percieve that as being important.
On another not if Harry were to inherit Grimmauld Place I believe that he would only come into possession upon reaching majority e.g. he would be an overage a wizard which under ordianry circumstances would occur after graduation from Hogwarts untill such time his inheritance would be held in trust like the money in his Gringotts valut is being held in all likelihood.
Nathan
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Sometimes known as Kim.
Czarina, I had considered this as well. I think that 12 Grimmauld Place is important enough to the Order that DD would have taken steps to ensure its passing to Harry or the Order itself upon Sirius' death. Also, Sirius' single-minded desire to keep Harry safe probably would have included securing Harry's future. I imagine the house and the contents of Sirius' vault at Gringotts (which by the way, has it ever been discussed is the vault next to the one DD kept the Sorcerer's Stone in?) will have been willed to Harry. Sirius, better than anyone, was aware of the dangers he faced. I don't think his bravado would have eclipsed his practical concern for Harry's welfare. For all of Sirius' impulsiveness, I think he would have addressed this issue head on. At least I hope so.
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 9:50 am (#2 of 365)
We don't know exactly what wizarding laws regarding inheritance are, but Czarina is pretty much correct as to how this would work in the muggle world. The Potters named Sirius as Harry's guardian, but Harry was never formally adopted so its true he has little claim to the house. I cannot believe that Dumbledore (who's foresight and judgment has admittedly come under scrutiny lately) would not have thought to take precautions regarding ownership of the Order headquarters in the event of Sirius's death. I would guess that either the Order or Harry would become the owner.
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Joanna S Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 11:18 am (#3 of 365)
Little Bobik
Edited by Apr 22, 2004 11:20 am
My guess is that 12 Grimauld Place and so Sirius' fortune stored in Gringots are and long ago were formally bequeathed to Harry, remember that Sirius took money from Gringots using Harry's name, it suggests that Harry does have some formal rights there.
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 11:41 am (#4 of 365)
remember that Sirius took money from Gringots using Harry's name--Johanna S. Lupin
When did Sirius do this? I recall that he used money from his own vault to buy the Firebolt to give to Harry, but I don't think Harry's name was in the trasaction with Gringotts.
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Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 1:33 pm (#5 of 365)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Loopy Lupin, Sirius told the Owl Office to take the money from his vault but he did use Harry's name.
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Joanna S Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 2:25 pm (#6 of 365)
Little Bobik
Yes, that's what I meant, thanks Kingsley
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 22, 2004 3:33 pm (#7 of 365)
Interesting. I'll have to review that in the book because if he, as the Godson, has some sort of legal right to Sirius's money then it would seem to me that he would inherit the house, will or no will.
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Dumbly-dorr - Apr 22, 2004 5:46 pm (#8 of 365)
I took that passage to mean that the Firebolt order was placed in Harry's name but the money was taken (separately, not under Harry's name) from Gringotts out of Sirius's vault. "There is something I never got around to telling you during our brief meeting. It was I who sent you the Firebolt--.... "Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Post for me. I used your name but told them to take the gold from my own Gringott's vault. Please consider it thirteen birthdays' worth of presents from our godfther." PoA, US, p 433.
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Tomoé - Apr 22, 2004 7:02 pm (#9 of 365)
Back in business
Is Sirius officially dead? Can they take back his corpse from behind the Veil? Can they prove he passed away?
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 23, 2004 4:44 am (#10 of 365)
Yes, I re-read the passage last night myself Dumbly-dorr. Frankly, I don't know what it means. So, a wanted mass murderer can send a note to the goblins and have a Firebolt paid for? The goblins aren't careless so I assume there is a password or something which means that Swiss banks would have nothing on the goblins in terms of secrecy since being on the run apparently doesn't stop one from being able to transact business!
Tomoe-- Yeah, I think Sirius is pretty dead.
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Catherine - Apr 23, 2004 6:32 am (#11 of 365)
Canon Seeker
I may have misunderstood Tomoe's question, but I think what Tomoe was asking was about the "legal" aspect of Sirius's death. For example, in the Muggle world, a death certificate is required for monies to be paid from a life insurance policy. Her question seemed to be about "proving" Sirius is dead, since there is no body. We all know that Sirius died because we saw it, but is there some sort of "official" declaration that needs to be made?
Tomoe, apologies if I misunderstood your question.
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 23, 2004 7:29 am (#12 of 365)
Mmm. That's actually a good question (and I think that is what Tomoe meant). Maybe the WW doesn't need certificates and the like. Sirius's "energy" is gone, maybe that's enough.
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Czarina - Apr 23, 2004 7:36 am (#13 of 365)
Or maybe, to prove that Sirius is dead, all the wizarding world needs are confirmations from X number of witnesses. We know Harry and Lupin saw him fall through the Veil (and Bellatrix, though I assume she is hiding) and were there others? I would assume that if, say, 6 people saw you die and their accounts of your death are basically identical, you would be considered dead.
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prof sprout - Apr 23, 2004 7:58 am (#14 of 365)
Well, I don't know if they want to say the Lupin and Harry saw him die. He is still considered a mass murderer, and they could use that saying they were hiding him. I doubt that though because there will be a shake up at the ministry. So they are not out to get Harry anymore. But you never know.
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S.E. Jones - Apr 23, 2004 8:46 am (#15 of 365)
Let it snow!
I think, considering the Wizarding world all knows that Dumbledore was now telling the truth all that time about Voldemort's return and considering how they viewed Dumbledore before, they'd take his word for it if he said, especially in front of the Wizengamot (as in made a legal/official statement), that he saw Sirius go through the veil.
Also, I think Sirius would've given some forethought to the fact that he could've died. I mean, James and Lily thought enough ahead to name him Harry's godfather (and I think they meant it in the non-Catholic/religious way, i.e. they intended him to be Harry's legal guardian should they die), so we know that there was some realization among the friends that something could happen. If nothing else, James and Lily may have asked Sirius to make a will just to be sure that Harry was taken care of after he took him should something then happen to Sirius (I think that made sense).
P.S. Question, Czarina, what does this mean: Andromeda Tonks (formerly)? Formerly what? She's still married to Ted Tonks....
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Tomoé - Apr 23, 2004 9:57 am (#16 of 365)
Back in business
That was exactly what I meant Catherine, how legally prove that Sirius is dead. If he's not legally prove dead, there's no need to wonder who will inherit the house, the motorbike or the Gringott vault. Since he still considered as a mass murderer, it won't be easy to prove him dead without a body.
I like your theory Sarah, about the Potters strongly suggest Sirius to make a will, just in case. After all, he was officially the Potters' Secret Keep and was likely to get abducted and killed.
P.S. : I'm not sure about the number of witnesses, would 30 DE telling the see Voldemort die be enough to consider him as truly dead?
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 23, 2004 10:19 am (#17 of 365)
P.S. : I'm not sure about the number of witnesses, would 30 DE telling the see Voldemort die be enough to consider him as truly dead? -- Tomoe
Not sure. One Harry was not enough to consider him truly alive.
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Tomoé - Apr 23, 2004 10:31 am (#18 of 365)
Back in business
I think they will need something more official than any number of witnesses and I'm not even sure that a body alone would be sufficient, they are wizards after all and Sirius is believed to be the Dark Lord apprentice in Dark Magic, he could have trick that out.
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S.E. Jones - Apr 23, 2004 11:04 am (#19 of 365)
Let it snow!
I still think Dumbledore's word could do it if given in some sort of court-like setting, like giving testimony. He was highly thought of prior to Voldemort's return and the wizarding world will most likely want to turn to him and lean on him even more now that they know he was right and they're all scared....
EDIT: Oooh, just thought of something else. The MoM may want everyone to think he's dead. People are going to be scared with Voldemort back and, even though they have some DEs in custody, they may not stay there and who knows how many more he's recruited... Declaring Sirius dead would be like saying "we got one" to the public who still believes he was in with Voldemort. I'm afraid we may not see Sirius name cleared, or at least, not until Book 7 concludes.
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mike miller - Apr 23, 2004 11:49 am (#20 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
A key point here is whether Sirius left a will. It makes sense, in the case of war, that those doing the fighting take the necessary steps prior to battle. I've been watch "Band of Brothers" again and it's mentioned every time they jump behind enemy lines. Sirius had plenty of time being cooped up in 12 GP to draw up a will.
I brought up this prediction on the "Will Harry Return to 12 GP thread and I'll bring it back here. Harry will have his shortest stay ever at #4 Privet because he will be summoned to the reading of Sirius's will where he will learn that he has inherited 12 GP. Between Dumbledore and Lupin helping to go threw some of Sirius's effects, Harry will start to learn more about his parent's past and his family. There may also be some private tutoring before the start of term.
Harry has started to mature, but has a long way to go. Coming to terms with Sirius's death, his parent's deaths and learning more about where he comes from, so to speak, will help him down that path. This also opens up some interesting side stories; a furious Narcissa and threatened legal action, a trip to Godric's Hollow and more one-on-one conversations with Dumbledore.
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Czarina - Apr 24, 2004 6:44 am (#21 of 365)
S.E. -- I meant that Andromeda was formerly in line to inherit the Black family fortune, but since she married Ted Tonks, she was disowned. So I would assume she (and any descendants, like Nymphadora) would be skipped over.
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S.E. Jones - Apr 24, 2004 7:42 am (#22 of 365)
Let it snow!
Ah, that makes much more sense. Thanks for clarifying...
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Madame Librarian - Apr 25, 2004 2:38 pm (#23 of 365)
Ages and ages ago I suggested--not completely seriously--that Regulus Black will suddenly be discovered alive, and show up at the will reading to claim his inheritance. Poor Doris Purkiss will be so confused. There's bound to be an article in The Quibbler about it.
On a more serious note, maybe as Wizards are inducted (?) into the Order they are advised to make a will or leave their last wishes in writing.
And, as to how Sirius could withdraw money from Gringotts while on the lam, I think the Goblins are ultra-discreet and have a reputation for keeping a depositor's indentity secret. Kind of like Swiss banks. His big problems were dealing on the sly with more mundane things like using the Owl Post, etc.
Ciao. Barb
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Star Crossed - Apr 25, 2004 3:01 pm (#24 of 365)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I always took that as the goblins could not care less if you were dead, alive, a murderer, or kind. They just want the money.
Which is kind of the opposite, but oh well.
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mononoke - May 2, 2004 3:10 am (#25 of 365)
I like your theory Mike.It does make some sense.Learning his parent's past,Narcissa's appearance in the will reading(plus Draco)...that would make book6 a lost&found-history treasure for all Potties.^_^
About how to officially declare the death,in Wormtail's case, the remaining of his finger and crime-scene MOM officers (hmm...plus some muggle witnesses) there can state Mr.Peter Pettigrew's heroic death. (Hey,they didn't even know what really happened!)
OK,I'm getting confused now and I can't remember why I brought up Wormtail here.This seems off-topic +_+
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PIJ - May 28, 2004 3:42 am (#26 of 365)
I think that I have read that Dumbledore is the Secret Keeper for the Order of the Phoenix and 12 Grimauld Place. Hence it doesn't matter that Sirius is dead as to all intents and purposes 12 Grimauld Place does not exist unless you are a member of the Order.
Not sure if the charm works on Blacks family members but one would think so.
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Mellilot Flower. - May 28, 2004 5:24 am (#27 of 365)
Pixie led
Now there is a point, the discussion of who inherits 12 Grimauld place probably will never come up in the books- or at least not untill Dumbledore removes the fidelius charm. Also, I'm pretty sure that when the house became head quarters for the Order the house became the orders property, more or less. Could be wrong.
And I don't think that bringing wormtail into this argument is off topic as its an example of a death being declared without a body and based soley on the evidence of muggle witnesses and a finger. Note here however that the witnesses would have had nothing to lose nor gain from the death of Wormtail, and as far as anyone could tell at that point Wormtail had nothing to gain from his death. However if it is believed that Sirius is dead whether he is or not the search for him is going to relax considerably.
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TGF - Jun 9, 2004 11:52 am (#28 of 365)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I think Sirius would have made a will. Not only because he was in the Order fighting against Voldemort, but also because he was on the run from Dementors all the time...
The question is, would he have given Grimmauld Place to Harry? He didn't exactly *like* the thing, after all, I mean, it wouldn't exactly be doing him a favour to give him the house. And what would Harry do with it? He isn't going to live in it. More likely it's just left for general use of the Order.
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mike miller - Jun 9, 2004 12:24 pm (#29 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
I think the will serves a couple of purposes. First, the read of the will gets Harry out of #4 quickly. The will probably states something like "I give all my worldy possessions to my godson Harry Potter".
The second plot device served is the opportunity to explore the back-story. Harry could be looking through some of Sirius's effects with, say Remus, and asks about a photograph or artifact. DD could also provide insight into the night James and Lily were murdered (maybe even a trip to Godric's Hollow).
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Magical Max - Jun 11, 2004 4:21 am (#30 of 365)
Another interesting point is; if Harry inherits Sirius's house, what to do about Kreacher? They can't let him go, he knows too much about the order. If released, he would run straight to Narcissa Malfoy and tell all. Hermione would be outraged but the order might have no choice but to eliminate Kreacher for security reasons. After all this IS war. Besides I doubt Kreacher would ever take orders from Harry even if he was the inheritor.
Now if Harry asked Dobby... Dobby would leap at the chance to look after Harry's house for him. That would be an interesting battle - house-elf vs house-elf.
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Diagon Nilly - Jun 11, 2004 11:12 am (#31 of 365)
Ha ha, I just had a funny thought. Let's say it's discovered where Harry's staying and the information puts the Dursley's in danger too. If Harry inherets Grimmauld place, it could be decided to move the Dursley's there for their safety as the house is secret-kept. Plus, as long as Harry has a place he can call home with his mother's family, he's safe. Could you imagine Petunia cooking ANYTHING in that kitchen? Or Vernon's first run-in with a doxie...
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S.E. Jones - Jun 11, 2004 3:41 pm (#32 of 365)
Let it snow!
Plus, as long as Harry has a place he can call home with his mother's family, he's safe.
Unfortunately, it's "as long as Petunia (one of his mother's blood) can call the place home, he's safe" not him. It doesn't matter where he calls home, just where she does.
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 13, 2004 9:59 am (#33 of 365)
Crazed Writer
This is a neat discussion! Lots of good points.
One question we don't know the answer to is: Can a "convicted murderer" make a will that will be honored in the Wizarding World? If the answer is yes, then I think you guys who are saying that Sirius would have taken care of that are right on the money. But if the answer is no...
Sirius was only Harry's godfather for 15 months before he was sent to prison, and he might not have made a will in that time (he was pretty young). Sirius' mother might still have been alive then, and he might only have inherited the house because no one else wanted it (You'd think he would have been disowned, too). Now that Sirius is dead, Kreacher is probably no longer tied to the house, and he probably has gone over to Bellatrix or Narcissa and told them everything. Granted that the house is hidden, if the house stays in the Black family line, the MoM might make the Order give it up.
Personally, I REALLY hope 12 GP goes to Harry or the Order, but since the next book has to be the one where everything goes wrong and breaks down so that things can be put together in book 7, I wouldn't put it past JKR to take the house away from the Order, so they've got to leave. (Sorry for the pessimism. Hey, wonder where the Order's Headquarters was for the last war?)
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TGF - Jun 13, 2004 11:04 am (#34 of 365)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I think now that Voldemort has been exposed, Fudge's government is on its last legs, and Dumbledore's voice stands as a voice of truth again, Sirius will likely have all charges against him post-humanously dropped.
And I also doubt that Dumbledore is going to let Kreacher just leave regardless of who owns him.
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Lady Nagini - Jun 13, 2004 1:08 pm (#35 of 365)
Edited by Jun 13, 2004 1:09 pm
But originally, the story of Sirius turning traitor had nothing to do with Fudge's corrupt government or the loss of respect for DD. It was, in fact, the only logical conclusion to draw from the facts. There was no spin on it. Remember, even DD thought Sirius was guilty.
So I can't see the public readily accepting his innocence, in which case a will might be difficult to honor.
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MoaningMyrtle101 - Jun 13, 2004 5:04 pm (#36 of 365)
Edited by Jun 13, 2004 5:06 pm
But now that Fudge's government has collapsed and Harry and Dumbledore aren't believed to be loony anymore, their version of events will be believed. Harry, according to wide public opinion, has more reason to hate Sirius than any other living person. Why, then, would he want to drop all charges against him and set him free from Ministry persual if his story is not true? Why would he want to convict Pettigrew, one of his parents' best friends, of their murder, without strong evidence that he was right? You'd have to be trying very hard to ignore that. And now the general public isn't trying very hard anymore. I feel certain, this time, that the wizarding community will believe Harry when he tells the truth about Sirius and Peter.
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Lady Nagini - Jun 14, 2004 12:51 am (#37 of 365)
Harry, according to wide public opinion, has more reason to hate Sirius than any other living person.
Does the public know the details about Sirius' betrayal, actually? Now that I think about it, it seemed to be somewhat of a secret in PoA...
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mike miller - Jun 14, 2004 7:52 am (#38 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
The public does not know the details, only that Sirius killed a dozen muggles and Peter when confronted about his alledged alligence to Voldemort. I don't think public opinion has any bearing on the validity of Sirius's will (assuming he left one).
Unless I'm mistaken, the will of a convicted criminal is still a valid legal document.
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Lady Nagini - Jun 14, 2004 1:07 pm (#39 of 365)
Under a government that doesn't send soul-sucking monsters after teenaged boys, yes, it is. Under Fudge's government...
I know JKR said in an interview that we'll see a new Minister in book 6, but she didn't specify when. If it's at the end, Fudge and his cronies might prevent the execution of Sirius' will.
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Detail Seeker - Jun 14, 2004 2:02 pm (#40 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
A few words, that may have been said before:
GP12 was an ownerless house, when the Order took it. There was only Kreacher. Of all the persons, who could have claimed GP12, Sirius was the least likely: He was erased from the family tree, which could be interpreted as a disinheriting. His brother is dead (or at least supposed to be). His cousins Narcissa and Bellatrix seem to be more likely to have been promised the house - but they did not claim it. So nobody in the wizarding world cared for this unplottable and heavily protected house until Sirius took it. We were not told, how, but I guess, he knew where it was and how to enter (Interesting, none of his parents performed a Fidelius to protect it against him), so he entered and hosted the Order afterwards.
Nobody except the eye-witnesses and those, they told knows, that Sirius is dead. And even if, it seems, that the MoM does not care much about inheritance regulations - as seen by the state of GP12 before Sirius took it. So, the legal status of this house may be of minor interest, unless Sirius made a will. And as there is no proof of Sirius´death, it might be difficult to go the legal way. So, keeping the state as unclear, unregulated as it is, might even be better for the Order and for Harry. If there is a will in Harry´s favour, he may claim it as soon as there is a "positive" MoM. If not, who will contest his or the Order´s factual ownership. Those not introduced by Dumbledore would not even find it.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2004 1:14 pm (#41 of 365)
I find it unlikely that the Malfoy's would be desirous to take possession of Grimmauld Place even though it is unplottable because it is likely that the same could be said of Malfoy Manor in Wiltshire.
I also find it highly unlikely that if indeed Sirius did leave a will he would have left it to either Narcissa or Belliatrix given then loathing and distaste he had towards them. I would argue that it is more likely that if indeed Sirius left a will, I believe he would have have left Grimmauld Place to one of 5 possible candidates
1. Andromeda Tonks his favorite cousin and her Daughter Nymphadora 2. Arthur Weasley as another cousin 3. Harry Potter as his godson 4. Remus Lupin as his best friend 5. Albus Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix
Best Regards, Nathan Zimmermann
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 19, 2004 6:51 pm (#42 of 365)
Crazed Writer
Certainly, Sirius would NEVER have left Grimmauld Place to Bellatrix or Narcissa! But I said that it might REVERT to them without a legal will. The Malfoys would have absolutely no interest in a broken-down old house UNLESS they found out they could deprive the Order of their HQ that way! And if Kreacher were free, he would certainly tell them that.
As far as Dumbledore not letting Kreacher go, Dumbledore wasn't at Grimmauld Place when Sirius died. Would Kreacher know if Sirius was dead? Is their enslavement a magical one, something Kreacher could feel?
I'm guessing Dumbledore used his fancy watch to trip back a little in time to get to Harry more quickly after the MoM affair. (He said in front of Fudge that he would see Harry in half an hour, but from the description it couldn't have been more than a few minutes.) It's possible he took a detour to Grimmauld Place, but he might have been pretty focussed on Harry, so he might have thought of it too late.
Remember, house-elves have very powerful magic, and they can apparate!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2004 7:19 pm (#43 of 365)
It seems to me unlikely that any member of the Order would have left no will especially in light of what happened during the 1970's
We know that the Potters made the provision that Sirius Black was to act as Harry's Godfather. It seems to me that Harry being left with Petunia was the last possible recourse given the fact that Sirius was suspected of the murder and therefore would have made an unsuitable guardian for Harry. But it seems to me that in naming Sirius Harry's Godfather seems to indicate that several of the members of the order had made provision for the care of their children.
Best Regards, Nathan Zimmermann
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Isenduil - Jun 19, 2004 10:23 pm (#44 of 365)
Well does Kreacher have to stay with the house? If he does, does that mean that Kreacher could be Harry's?
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S.E. Jones - Jun 19, 2004 10:43 pm (#45 of 365)
Let it snow!
Kreacher didn't leave the house when his mistress (Mrs. Black) died. I wonder if he will want to stay with the house this time as well. He might even try to keep the Order out, and sort of "re-claim" the house in Mrs. Black's memory, which could be a real problem....
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 22, 2004 7:05 am (#46 of 365)
Could the Malfoy's have to move into Grimmauld Place? With Lucius's exposure as a Death Eater, could they have their bank account frozen and be forced to move out of the mansion?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 22, 2004 7:41 am (#47 of 365)
I doubt the Malfoy's would be forced to move into Grimmauld Place because I doubt that Lucius with his exposure as a Death Eater would want to be in the vicinity of London with Auurors on high alert. In the midist of Wiltshire Malfoy Mansion is safer. As to Malfoy's assets being frozenit is possible although it is a probability that he has assets in other Wizard Banks across Europe.
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Tomoé - Jun 22, 2004 9:35 am (#48 of 365)
Back in business
Sirius Black had free access to his account, I can't see why Lucius's account have to be frozen when Sirius's wasn't.
Edit : Especially since Lucius have a wife and a kid. But the decisions of the MoM are not always logical ...
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Padfoot - Jun 23, 2004 3:18 pm (#49 of 365)
Well does Kreacher have to stay with the house? If he does, does that mean that Kreacher could be Harry's?
What would Harry do with a house elf? Kreacher needs to remain at 12GP because he knows too much. However I see DD dealing with Kreacher one way or another so that Harry doesn't have to.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 23, 2004 3:45 pm (#50 of 365)
I seem to recall that Kreacher was bound not to reveal anything about the Order. But, that Sirius did not include facts about the nature of his relationship with Harry as he did not percieve that as being important.
On another not if Harry were to inherit Grimmauld Place I believe that he would only come into possession upon reaching majority e.g. he would be an overage a wizard which under ordianry circumstances would occur after graduation from Hogwarts untill such time his inheritance would be held in trust like the money in his Gringotts valut is being held in all likelihood.
Nathan
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Who's Going to Inherit 12 Grimmauld Place (Post 51 to 100)
Elanor Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:45 am
The Grey Lady - Jun 24, 2004 7:41 pm (#51 of 365)
Sup, Figgy?
Erm, just throwing stuff out there concerning Ministry interference:
They didn't seem to care too much about who inherits what when they let a suppossed mass-muderer on the run take ownership of a house previously owned by a family of obviously pro-Voldemorts. Y'know, full of dark-ish items and whatnot.
So, it seems rather unlikely the Ministry plans to step in and worry about legal issues like wills.
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Jimi - Jul 5, 2004 5:29 am (#52 of 365)
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned, but I feel that it is appropriate to say "I offered it to Dumbledore, it's about the only useful thing I've been able to do" or something similar, (Sirius - Order of the Phoenix) so it seems to me that the house will be kept in control of the order, and more specifically Dumbledore.
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almightykneazle33 - Jul 6, 2004 9:06 pm (#53 of 365)
I am the Almighty Kneazle. Do not ask questions.
Oh yaaa Jimi, I totally forgot about that.. Does that mean that he signed it over to them though? Personally, I still believe that everyone (legally wise) probably still thinks Mrs. Black is alive and well, taking care of the house... its not as if the Blacks were ever totally legal.. at least not in my eyes!
``--the almighty kneazle--``
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 7, 2004 5:43 am (#54 of 365)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Having just read all the psts in this thread, I have lots of different points to make. I'll try to keep things organized.
Sirius's will, if there is one
I highly doubt there are wills per se in the WW. Probate court would seem as barbaric as stitches to a wizard. I see some sort of magical means of passing down property. In a fan fic I have partially written that will probably never see the light of day, I had Sirius perform a Testementus charm which I made up. He wrote his wishes on a piece of parchment, Lupin signed it, Sirius performed the charm on the parchment and now Lupin as magical executor is required to fulfill the wishes on the paper. He cannot go against the wishes because of the charm. No fuss, no muss, no lawyers. Do you really think their are wizard lawyers? From all the legal things we have seen (pensieve, Harry's trial), there are no lawyers. I have not heard of post Hogwart's education, and the kids don't appear to learn about probating wills in History of MAgic. So I assume that means no lawyers, and that means no standard wills.
Sirius would have wanted Harry taken care of
Did you all forget about the big pile of gold already in Harry's vault? Harry is not in dire straights. While Sirius probably would want Harry to inherit his estate, Harry's survival or even monetary comfort does not depend on it.
What about Kreacher
There was some speculation (by me, and others) in the S.P.E.W. thread that house-elves belong to the house, not to wizards. Read the thread for more info (my post on the subject is #77). But if the theory is correct, Kreacher would belong to whoever next owned 12GMP. He would not be free to go. If that is the case, it is the more important reason for Sirius to leave a magical version of a will. To leave 12GMP and with it KReacher, to someone in the order or Harry.
Muggle laws misintepreted I am not sure how the law works in England. However, in america, you have to legally disown someone before they lose their intestate rights (inheritance without a will). I have read cases where there was lots of evidence that the deceased hated a relative, even tried to make a will excluding them. The will was found not legal and the person they hated still got the money. So Sirius' mom sitting at home blasting names fof the family tree would not be enough to prvent inheritence if the intestate rule are similar to muggle American ones. People generally do not take the time to legally disown cousins.
Also, assets of fugitives are usually frozen, but this didn't happen with Sirius, so wizard laws are probably different. I don't see the Goblins letting the MoM tell them what to do.
Finally, if there is no body, people are declared dead after a certain amount of time passes. Witnesses generally are not accepted in muggle law. However, witnesses can speed up the wait on the missing person thing. For example imagine that someone drowned in the water and people saw it. The body was never found. They might only wait 3 months to declare the person dead instead of 2 years. So if there are not magical ways to tell if someone is dead, the Order should just report Sirius missing and wait a few years to worry about inheritence, assuming muggle law applies.
Final thoughts
I am not even sure this will be addressed. I'd like an explanation of what killed Sirius before an explanation of how his estate is handled. If it is discussed, I assume there is some magical will type procedure and Sirius took advantage of it because being in the order could mean death. I doubt they will have problems with the ministry. Harry will probably get most of the stuff, but I hope Lupin and the Weasley's get lots. And I assume 12GMP will stay with the order no matter what. That said, it would be interesting if the Malfoys got their hands on it....but not as interesting as Vernon, Petunia and Dudley somehow being forced to live there with harry.
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 15, 2004 12:36 am (#55 of 365)
As far as Kreacher is concerned, I also don't see anyone letting him go. However, I think he will have to 'disappear' - Harry, for one, will not be able to stomach his presence. I wonder (as have others) if he might not make a nice lunch for Buckbeak (who won't bat an eyelid at killing a house-elf, and who has bad memories of Kreacher anyway). As for what Hermione thinks, once she finds out that Kreacher deliberately mistreated Bucky, I think she might understand...
I suspect that 12GP will go to the Order until the war is over, and then revert to Harry when he is in his majority. How many more of us think/suppose that Sirius might leave his money to the Weasleys? They might honour his memory enough to not refuse it. And yes, Lupin could probably do with a few Galleons his way...
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Angel of the North - Jul 15, 2004 1:47 pm (#56 of 365)
Tea, dammit
From my experience of the Muggle inheritance system in the UK it doesn't seem to be nearly so barbaric as the US system with the litigation and the figths. There's been some high profile ones recently, but generally what is said in the will goes.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dumbledore had made it a condition of joining the order that all the members had to submit a will to be held at his office or at a magical mediator.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 15, 2004 3:20 pm (#57 of 365)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 15, 2004 3:30 pm
Just to clarify, and I know this is straying a bit off topic, the US muggle probate system honors all valid wills. If the will is valid, what is said in it goes (with a few exceptions regarding conditions you cannot impose on someone before they inherit). However, there has to be witnesses and the person have to be of sound mind, and it has to be in a certain form to make sure it is really what the deceased wanted and was not forged or coerced. The US sounds like the UK system in that generally what is said goes. There are a few high-profile ones that you hear about where the will is contested. You don't hear about the ones where everything goes smoothly.
I do agree that DD might suggest some sort of will, magical or muggle, for order members. I am not sure he would require it. I mean what is the point of Lupin making a will. He has nothing to give and nobody to give it too (Poor Lupin ). Given 12GMP's importance, DD might have strongly suggested Sirius make a will. But also nobody expected Sirius to go out and fight given his status as a fugitive, so would they really consider it a priority in his case?
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Angel of the North - Jul 15, 2004 3:22 pm (#58 of 365)
Tea, dammit
I think there is always the gifting of secrets...
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Tomoé - Jul 15, 2004 9:26 pm (#59 of 365)
Back in business
I don't think Sirius made a will since the Order reformed, I think he made it back when James was still alive. Since he had not the opportunity to rewrite it, his will is still the same as he left it before he entered Azkaban.
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Hermione Weasley - Jul 17, 2004 12:30 pm (#60 of 365)
Lady Nagini, this is regarding thread #39: "I know JKR said in an interview that we'll see a new Minister in book 6, but she didn't specify when."
I must have missed this when she said it!! Help! Where is it??
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Julia. - Jul 17, 2004 9:10 pm (#61 of 365)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Here it is Hermione Weasley. (Great name, by the way! )
miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next books?
JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of information, I hear you cry! (World Book Day Chat, March 2004)
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Hermione Weasley - Jul 18, 2004 8:15 pm (#62 of 365)
Julia! Thanks!!
Also thanks for replying! I actually happened to find the quote after I posted so...
She gave a lot of great information didn't she?! I know this is off thread but...never mind...it's WAY off thread.
Hermione!
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mike miller - Jul 19, 2004 7:42 am (#63 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Tomoe - I think Sirius did update his will. Several things have changed since the original Order was formed, the death of Harry's parents and the granting of #12GP as Order HQ being the two most significant. Sirius had plenty of time to update his will being stuck in #12.
I still think the reading of Sirius's will being the best reason to shorten Harry's stay at #4PD since it opens the door for so many things to happen that can advance the storyline. Harry needs to deal with Sirius's death and we need to find out more about the events of VWI. Going through some of Sirius's personal effects, probably with Remus, gives JKR the opporrtunity to provide any background information she deems necessary.
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remiden - Jul 21, 2004 7:43 am (#64 of 365)
The only way I could see Petunia, Vernon, and Dudley being forced to move to 12 GP is that the house is in fact left to Harry, but since you have to be 17 in the wizard world to be of age, then Harry may have to have is guardians live there with him.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 10:19 am (#65 of 365)
Hey, what if Kreacher inherits. That would be a hoot. Out goed to OOtP.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 21, 2004 5:14 pm (#66 of 365)
Let it snow!
The subject of inheritance came up on the "CoS/HBP" thread:
S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2004 5:24 pm (#253 of 264)
Sirius mentions in PoA to Harry, "I'm your godfather..... Well... your parents appointed me you guardian. If anything happened to them...". That makes it sound like it was down in James and Lily's will that Sirius would become Harry's guardian if they died (I know many people in the US use the term 'godparent' to refer to a guardian, my brother chose "godparents" that would become my niece's guardians should anything happen to him). If they were in the US and Harry had thus legally transferred (I don't think I like that word) to Sirius, he'd be Sirius's ward or something now, right? Would that place Harry in line to inherit anything of Sirius's now that he's dead?
Hogs Head - Jul 20, 2004 6:55 pm (#255 of 264)
A guardianship, in and of itself, normally does not endow the ward with any right to inherit from the guardian as it pertains to the guardian's own property. The guardian, however, is often the trustee of property of the ward's parents, holding it for the benefit of the ward until the ward reaches majority. The latter would not apply to 12 Grimmauld Place, as that was Sirius's own property. Yes, the fact that the Potter's had designated Sirius as guardian is some indication that they left behind something -- what to us would be legal documents -- appointing Sirius to fill that role. Depending upon the locale, that could be done either in a Will itself or in documents logically accompanying a Will. How that would be effected in JKR's imaginary Wizard World is for her to tell us.
But the point carries over -- the careful people who are thoughtful enough to formally appoint guardians for their infant children while still in their 20s or 30s are also the same careful people who write and leave behind valid Wills. (And, if in the Wizard World we suppose that this is done by incantation instead of document, that just makes it easier.) With many exceptions of course, it might be logical that someone who had actually become a guardian, i.e., where the guardianship was activated by the death of the parents, would also be such a careful person. So, it might be an educated guess to suppose that Sirius left behind a Will with an express conveyance of 12 Grimmauld Place to someone.
S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2004 7:12 pm (#256 of 264)
Do you know anything about Medieval law? That seems like an odd question, doesn't it.... If someone had appointed a child their ward or heir in their will, wouldn't that child then inherit? Or does the child have to be specifically stated as their sole heir in the will?
---
So what about the heir thing?
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Hogs Head - Jul 21, 2004 7:58 pm (#67 of 365)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
If Harry is designated as Sirius's heir in a Will (or Wizarding World equivalent, such as an incantation, etc.), then he might have inherited 12 Grimmauld Place (or even the Famous Flying Motor Bike!).
But he might also have inherited more important things from the Black family lineage, perhaps?
Suppose further that Sirius took steps inter vivos (i.e., while he was alive) to formally adopt Harry (unknown to us). I wonder if (in the Wizarding World) those steps can survive Sirius's death? (They would not survive in our forlorn Muggle world.) But could Harry also become entitled to "family status" with Bellatrix, Narcissa and, heaven forbid, Draco? Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm?"
(Yes, of course he's dead, as in dead = dead.)
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S.E. Jones - Jul 21, 2004 8:33 pm (#68 of 365)
Let it snow!
This is where my question about medieval law comes in (Elanor where'd you go?). Sirius, even though he was blasted off the Black family tapestry, was still the last remaining male heir of the family, thus he inherited. So, if he claimed someone as his heir in a will, does anyone think that that person (Harry) would be in line to inherit the Black family holdings too? The Wizarding world seems to be an odd mesh of modern and medieval legal systems. I know that there were several ways of inheriting things at various times in English history. I'm just trying to figure out how JKR might weave it.
On another note, if Sirius inherited his family's vault and named Harry his heir, and Harry inherited his parents' vault, then Sirius's vault and possessions, and then the Black family vault and possessions, he may very well end up one very wealthy kid....
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Tomoé - Jul 21, 2004 8:42 pm (#69 of 365)
Back in business
LOL! He'll find himself in the top of the richest people list published in the Gringotts Journal. ^_^
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contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 9:02 pm (#70 of 365)
Here is a question. Sirius inherited even though his mother hated him. This suggests what she said had little to do with what happened. Was he in for a life sentence at Azkaban at the time? The question is, if someone else inherits will it matter. Could they even find the place even if they found out about it. Would Dumbledore have to tell them?
But...... If that is true, how did Kreacher get back to 12 Grimmauld after going to the Malfoy estate. Did Dumbledore tell him, or did he already know. And....if he already knew, wouldn't the rest of the family know also?
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S.E. Jones - Jul 21, 2004 10:46 pm (#71 of 365)
Let it snow!
Contess Lillein Asend: But...... If that is true, how did Kreacher get back to 12 Grimmauld after going to the Malfoy estate. Did Dumbledore tell him, or did he already know.
I had a theory about the Fidelius charm once that said the charm had to be cast on a place (12 Grimmauld Place, Potter house) and a recipient (the Order, the Potters) to allow someone to hide. (Otherwise, when the Potters' house was hidden, they wouldn't have been able to find it unless they were told, and how would you tell a 1-yr-old and have them understand something like that?) Well, if that's true, then Kreacher, being magically bound to the place would be automatically included in the recipients.
As for knowing, you can know where something under the Fidelius charm is at, you just can't see it unless you are let in on the secret.
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Elanor - Jul 21, 2004 11:19 pm (#72 of 365)
Hi everybody ! Sorry for being late, but with the time difference (8 am, on thursday, for me now...), it isn't easy for me to follow all the discussions live !
Well, concerning inheritance, I agree with your conclusions S.E. I think that if Sirius left a will which claimed Harry as his only heir, Harry will come into all Sirius's properties. But, as Sirius still have relatives, the latter could contest its validity : I don't imagine the Malfoy letting Harry inherit all the Black family's properties without sayaing a word, don't you? Now, if Sirius hasn't left a testament, Harry, as any other godson, will have no rights at all, the godfather's obligation being more moral than legal. Yet, even if Sirius left a will, Harry may not be the only heir. What if he gave part of it to he Order to help them carry on their fight? I mean : couldn't he have left the House to Dumbledore himself or the whole order, transfering by the way Kreacher's bond to him or them ? (sorry, if this was already said, I haven't read all the previous messages...).
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2004 9:20 am (#73 of 365)
S E Jones, on the godparent thing - under British law the godparents can become legal guardians one the death of the parents. This is not adoption. Basically the godparents become a child's trustees. They are responsible for the finances of the child, and can invest the capital if they as a body feel that this is correct. This is one of the reasons why godparents are often chosen from uncles and aunts. Also it is traditional in Britain at least to have three godparents. Two of the same gender as the child and one of the opposite gender. I wouldn't be suprised if Dumbledore was the other godfather.
I know I speak to my godson as "your godfather" even though I know there is another one.
Elanor is correct in that if Sirius did not leave a will then Harry will not inherit. Under Bitish law (changed in the 1920's and again much more recently) it is a close relative who inherits if there is no will. This is a parent, child, brother or sister. If none of these exist then it is a first cousin, uncle or aunt. This then allows for Nymphadora Tonks (I think), Bellatrix or Narcissa. Lucius is cousin by marriage so is ruled out, as are the other Lestranges. Draco is too distant, as are the Weasleys.
The problem is that where is the evidence for Sirius's death? Bellatrix escaped, will they believe the words of Harry, Kingsley and Lupin as they were the ones conscious when Sirius went through the arch? As Sirius was still a criminal there may be issues over the legality of any will. But Lucius's position as a captured Death Eater, with that of Bellatrix as an escaped Death Eater, may actually negate Narcissa'a and Bellatrix's claim. As Bellatrix caused Sirius's death she may not be allowed to inherit as you can not inherit from someone you killed in cold blood. While she did not use AK, she was aware of the arch and realised that a stunning hex or similar could have resulted in Sirius's death. This would make her guilty of murder and unable to profit from her crime. As Lucius is implied in this Narcissa may also be unable to inherit, Lucius being what is know as an accessory, and Narcissa being aware of her husband's activities. This then leaves Nymphadora Tonks as next of kin. Kreacher will not like this, but tough.
If Nymohadora is unable to inherit then Sirius will be "intestate" that is without someone to inherit the Black family welath and property. The house, the Gringotts bank account and everything else will then become the property of the Ministry of Magic, that is if the wizarding world follows the lines of the Muggle one.
Edit - sorry about the length of post.
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Gina R Snape - Jul 27, 2004 11:59 am (#74 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
This is very interesting, Phelim. And you got me thinking. What if Sirius' death isn't reported officially? Then 12GP can stay in the Order's use, but in a state of flux.
This would leave Kreacher looking for a home, but only if he know Sirius were dead. And if no one tells him...
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Hogs Head - Jul 27, 2004 3:26 pm (#75 of 365)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Two further thoughts. First, if Harry inherits from Sirius as the result of a valid Will what will that inheritance entail? Let's assume that it is everything Sirius had to bequeath, so what was that? Aside from 12 Grimmauld Place and the Flying Motor Bike? Lots of "ifs" here but one more -- it is at least possible that the house Narcissa (and her family) are living in is itself a Black family possession and not a Malfoy family possession. So, you could conceivably have Harry coming into possession of the Malfoy Mansion with its trap door, etc. That would be hilarious and would allow for great mischief.
Second thought -- the Black family estate might entail more than just physical possessions, vaults, etc. It might also entail rights, privileges and powers. The equivalent of board seats on or controlling interests in corporations, country club memberships, libraries (with books full of secrets and spells), magical gadgets, etc.
This might be just a really large red herring thread, but it also has the potential to be very important to the plot development.
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Madame Librarian - Jul 27, 2004 3:48 pm (#76 of 365)
What an interesting idea, Gina, that somehow Sirius's death could be kept a secret to the general Wizarding public. However, there are so many who already know about, I don't think it'd be easy to keep things hush-hush for very long. Remember how DD teases Harry a bit at the end of PS with the idea that he insisted what happened with Quirrell was to remain top secret, therefore it is all over the school? Well, I believe the same thing is true for this unfortunate occurrance.
Ciao. Barb
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TomProffitt - Jul 27, 2004 5:55 pm (#77 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
Kingsley is the auror in charge of the hunt for the escaped mass murderer Sirius Black. If Kingsley says he died in the fight at the DoM I believe that the WW will accept his death.
Can something under a Fidelius Charm go before probate without the Secret Keeper's say so?
If he didn't say so would he be in contempt?
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Elanor - Jul 27, 2004 11:38 pm (#78 of 365)
Hi Phelim and thanks a lot for the interesting points you revealed. I’m historian, not a jurist at all, and I was only refering to what I knew concerning medieval laws, and it is really interesting to see how they evolved. Three points have attracted my attention :
1) Have you notice that even if Sirius’ mother loathed him she didn’t actually disinherit him ? I was wondering why... Maybe, in the WW, couln’t she disinherit him ? Or, did she loathed the rest of the family even more than him : she agreed whith Voldemort first, but after all Death Eaters killed her favorite son, so she woudn’t let them inherit... Or maybe was she too proud to ever recognize Sirius was right but still remember he was her son...
2) You said that with « Bellatrix as an escaped Death Eater, may actually negate Narcissa'a and Bellatrix's claim ». But we know that when Sirius’ mother died he was already in Azkaban convicted of murder and being a Voldemort’s supporter (in OotP, Sirius says : ‘No one’s lived here for ten years, not since my dear mother died’). And, after that, he was still an escaped prisoner, but inherited just the same... He also says : « This was my parent’s house. But I’m the last Black left, so it’s mine now ». So, maybe his dear cousins, even convicted of being Death Eaters, should be allowed to inherit now, shouldn’t they ?
3) What you said about godfathers is really interesting : I think we’ll ear soon of his other godfather. You said : « godparents are often chosen from uncles and aunts », therefore, there is a probability that Petunia is Harry’s Godmother : even if she disagreed with Lily’s way of life, she has given proofs she still was attached to family traditions. Maybe didn’t she dare refuse it because it is traditional and the neighbours would have talk if she had...
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 28, 2004 12:34 am (#79 of 365)
"So, maybe his dear cousins, even convicted of being Death Eaters, should be allowed to inherit now, shouldn’t they ?"
Narcissa, possibly. (She might not even be a Death Eater for all we know.) Bellatrix, definitely not. (Unless found innocent of murdering Sirius, or unless the wizards' justice system is completely messed up...)
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 28, 2004 3:39 am (#80 of 365)
Elanor. If Mrs Black did not make a will, then the Black estate would pass to Sirius as, even though he was in Azkaban, he was a the last surviving son. The nearest to be able to inherit. Also he was convicted as a presumed Voldemort supporter. As Mrs Black agreed with Voldemorts stance (if not his actions publically) then to have a son who was involved with The Darl Lord may have been a source of pride - Sirius had redeemed himself. Also, as his crime did not profit him by bringing about his inheritance then he could still inherit even if he was not able to get to his inheritance.
As to Bellatrix and Narcissa, Bellatrix would financially gain from her crime. You can not do this under English law. A convicted criminal is not allowed to get payment from paers of publishers for the story of the crime. So this rules out Bellatrix.
Narcissa is a grey area. Her husband is now a convicted Death Eater. He was involved in the attempt to steal the prophecy and the ensuing fight that led to Sirius's death. (As the prophecy carried Harry's name it could be argued that he was not stealing the prophecy as only he and Voldemort could take it from the shelf). As such Lucius would be guilty of Sirius's death by his involvment. He could have acted to prevent Sirius's death but did not. If Narcissa was aware of her husband's role as a Death Eater then she would be guilty of being an accesory to her husband's crime. While Narcissa could technically be possible to inherit the Black estate, this may not be allowed due to her passive involvment in the criminal activities of her husband.
I agree though with the possibility of Petunia being Harry's godmother. But I'm not convinced as Petunia chose to distance herself from the Potter's, though this does not explain how Petunia knew Harry's name. But I do believe that Dumbledore is another godfather.
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ShelterGirl - Jul 28, 2004 5:59 am (#81 of 365)
Can a legal guardian assign another legal guardian in the event of death? I'm only asking because I had some thoughts that Sirius may have indeed prepared a will before his supposed demise in which he left not only 12GP but also the guardianship of Harry to Lupin.
In the WW Sirius is considered the legal guardian, and this might supercede any claims that Petunia might (but probably won't) make.
Harry still has a couple of years to go before he is considered of age.
I'm not sure how it works in Britain, but in the US being named a godparent doesn't always imply guardianship in the event of the death of the parents. I'm the godmother of my friend's twin boys, but she also had to prepare a document stating that if anything happens to her I would be the guardian of the boys.
Just my 2 knuts...
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 28, 2004 7:11 am (#82 of 365)
Harry is now, or soon will be 16 in the books. As such he would no longer require a legal guardian. As of sixteen in the UK, while you can not vote, you can do other things. Also this is the age where children's homes do not have to house you. Also, while Sirius was the godfather he never fufiled his guardianship role, except in the Hogmeads letter. Officially (to the Muggle World) Harry was the ward of Petunia and Dursley.
But to answer the question asked. On the Death of Harry's parents he would have first have been the responsibility of the remaining family. Then the guardians/god-parents. They are able to make legal provision for the care of the child (as far as I am aware) for if they are unable to fulfil that role through either illness or death. But as Harry is about to turn 16 this is irrelivant. But this is part of what leads me to believe that DD is one of Harry's god-parents.
Sorry for being so boring, but I had to research this for a crime novel I'm writing.
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Elanor - Jul 28, 2004 9:18 am (#83 of 365)
Thanks a lot for all this interesting informations, it wasn't boring at all but enlightening ! Narcissa's case is really interesting, because, if there is even just a little vagueness of the law, she may try to exploit it. The Malfoy already managed, thanks to their gold, to "ask favours... delay laws he doesn't want passed..." (OotP, p.142), therefore contest a will... Well, of course, Lucius Malfoy will be less influential, even if he escapes from Azkaban, but he may still have useful relations., don't you think so?
By the way, I love the idea of DD being Harry's second godfather. You're right, it would explain why he was the one who decided Harry had to go to live with the Dursleys. You definitely put your finger on something here...
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Gina R Snape - Jul 28, 2004 10:06 am (#84 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think if Kingsley must report Sirius' death, then it shall be accepted. However, if there is a way to keep things hush-hush, they may try to do that.
I also think that Mrs. Black might not have 'bothered' to take her son off the tapestry when he entered Azkaban, thinking he'd be there forever anyway. I doubt she was proud of him, because even Sirius said she was a supporter until they saw exactly how far the Dark Lord was willing to go to meet his goals. It's impossible to say for sure, though. But I'd think her portrait would be happy to see Sirius if she thought he was a 'redeemed pureblood.'
Of course, none of this answers the question of what will happen to 12GP. But it is just my hunch that DD will not eagerly give up such a gem of a location.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 28, 2004 3:49 pm (#85 of 365)
Let it snow!
Well, in Harry's case it was the guardian who should've taken him, not the remaining family, as that seems to have been James and Lily's wish and it seems that they made the wish known in some way (I'm guessing a will). Sirius tells Harry that "...your parents appointed me you guardian. If anything happened to them..." so it seems that it was official that Sirius was to become Harry's guardian upon his parents' death.
As to inheriting Grimmauld Place, the reason I was asking about Medieval law is that the wizarding world seems to be an odd mix of the medieval and the modern. Sirius was "booted" off the family tapestry but, when the other heir (Regulus) died, he was the sole remainig Black (i.e. sole remaining male Black) and thus could inherit. Here the inheritance seems to be based more on certain lines within the blood than wishes, i.e. more medieval than modern. I'm guessing whoever Sirius named as his heir will be able to inherit. In the case that he didn't name an heir, then the female members of the family might be able to lay claims. I doubt they could contest a will too much as Sirius was the male heir and the eldest son....
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 29, 2004 2:47 am (#86 of 365)
Gina R Snape, if Mrs Black's portrait was painted before Sirius had redeemed himnself by being a supporter of Voldemort (as far as the public new) would it have the attitude of the mother at the time of her death? Possibly, possibly not. Also how up to date with his mother's attitude was Sirius if he was not speaking to his family. The Malfoy's appeared to be less than supportive of Voldemort but Lucius is a Death Eater, so how do we know the real extent of the support of the Blacks. Remember, Bellatrix was still on the tapestry even with her crime which suggests being a Death Eater wasn't that bad.
I agree with you though about DD not giving up Grimauld Place. Sorry I guess its going to go to either Harry or Tonks depending on how the Wizarding world plays inheritance.
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Gina R Snape - Jul 29, 2004 10:02 am (#87 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, portraits seem 'current' and 'alive' so my guess is Mrs. Black's portrait may never have been told about Sirius' imprisonment. Even if he had, when she saw him return to the house, his attitudes hadn't changed. So, for her it would be the same old blood traitor son. So I guess I answered my own question!
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Hollywand - Jul 30, 2004 10:15 pm (#88 of 365)
Gryffindor
Just a suggestion about Grimmauld Place in the text. It's meant as a clue that Sirius will die primarily. A Grim is a black dog, a harbinger of death, 13 minus one is 12. Sibyll Trelawney first sees Sirius approaching as a Grim, but Harry and Ron ignore it.
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Gina R Snape - Jul 31, 2004 7:13 pm (#89 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, you want to hear something creepy? Denise posted on the board after her first reading that when Harry walks in the door, he thinks to himself that 12GP had that creeping feeling of being a home where someone were about to die. Really good catch, eh?
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Hollywand - Jul 31, 2004 8:01 pm (#90 of 365)
Gryffindor
So, you wouldn't think that Harry would want to return to 12 Grimmauld. All those wailing portraits, a surly house elf, a reminder of the last place Sirius lived? Possibly Bellatrix knows the location? Nope. For a young man who frequently gives away everything he's won, I don't think he will want the place.
I imagined the place to vanish with Sirus' fall through the veil as he was the last of the Blacks. I'm just cranky I missed so many clues about his death that were in plain sight. That Rowling's a clever one.
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Hermione Weasley - Aug 1, 2004 9:16 pm (#91 of 365)
Bellatrix, even if she knows that the house is there, would not possibly be able to see the house due to the Fidelius Charm. She could be pressing her nose up against the glass and still not see it. (exact quote I don't know...books in storage...going into withdrawal....ack!!)
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Julia. - Aug 1, 2004 9:26 pm (#92 of 365)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Awww, poor Hermione, I feel for you with books in storage, I would never be able to live with out mine. Here's the quote you're looking for.
"As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Konw-Who could search the billage where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window." (PoA ch. 10, pg. 205 US)
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Madame Librarian - Aug 2, 2004 5:20 am (#93 of 365)
Doesn't that quote imply that the place is still visible, but that the people aren't? I suppose a place could be under the charm, too.
Aaaack! The Fidelius charm is one of the ones that confounds me the most. I'm worried that we Muggles invoke it as a reason or device in too many unclear instances.
But, this is not the place to discuss it. I was just suggesting that we don't exactly know what's meant when DD placed the protections around 12 GP. It just strikes me a very odd that Bellatrix or the other DEs who probably knew quite well where the Black mansion was, suddenly search around saying, "Grindelwald's goatee! I'm absolutely sure that old house was on this block. I've been there dozens of times. Where the bloody hell is it?"
On another tack, Harry could very well want to be able to poke around in the house to look for things from Sirius (the bike? and diary? special messages for him?). Whether he'd like to own the place, well...not sure.
Ciao. Barb
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TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2004 5:49 am (#94 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
"Grindelwald's goatee! I'm absolutely sure that old house was on this block. I've been there dozens of times. Where the bloody hell is it?" ---Madame Librarian
I would not be surprised at all if they had that very experience. When the place was selected as HQ no one had yet escaped from Azkaban. And the guard was not a formality at all. If no one else, I would bet that Moody expected to bump into an escaped Death Eater wondering why he couldn't find the Black place.
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Hermione Weasley - Aug 2, 2004 5:58 pm (#95 of 365)
Julia. Thanks!!!
Madam Librarian, didn't Sirius say "My father put every security known to Wizard-kind on it when he lived here. It's Unplottable, so Muggles could never come and call-as if they'd have wanted to-and now Dumbledore's added his protection, you'd be hard put to find a safer house anywhere. Dumbledore's Secret-Keeper for the Order, you know-nobody can find headquarters unless he tells them personally where it is" (By the way, OoP is the only book not in storage).
So even if Bellatrix or the other DE's knew where the HQ are they would still never find it. That's what I am thinking anyway. So there is no reason that the Order could not stay there unless they can't due to inheritance issues which is why we are discussing it. Right? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Gina R Snape - Aug 2, 2004 8:15 pm (#96 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think you are absolutely correct. My guess is, an ordinarly fidelius charm hides a person/people. But these extras make the house itself invisible and undetectable.
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Hermione Weasley - Aug 2, 2004 8:19 pm (#97 of 365)
Thanks!
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MrsGump - Aug 5, 2004 6:37 pm (#98 of 365)
I know this is slightly off topic, but this is the closest thread I could find to post this.
Does anyone else find it odd the Mrs. Black is shrieking "THE HOUSE OF MY FATHERS" when it's the noble house of Black? As in, her husband's family? Or is the Black family so in-breed that Black was her madian name too? First cousins?
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Gina R Snape - Aug 5, 2004 7:01 pm (#99 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
LOL.
Well, lots of people call their father-in-law 'father' or 'dad.' Or maybe she means forefathers in a broader sense, as she is/was a major force in the Black family once she married into it.
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Hermione Weasley - Aug 5, 2004 8:25 pm (#100 of 365)
MrsGump,
Along that line of thinking, if the Blacks were pureblood and all are related per Sirius (don't know the exact quote) then how closely related are they? JKR knows. But the thing that I'm wondering is closely interbreeding (I know I don't like the terms either) generally end up with genetic mutation and retardation and the like, why don't pureblood wizards show that as well? Is it a magical circumstance that prevents it? Or is it that the mutations and retardation ARE shown but evolved into weird magical talent? Anybody else?
EDIT: I know it's slightly off topic but where else should I put it?
EDIT AGAIN: I got the 100th thread post!! Milestone! I haven't done that yet!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Sup, Figgy?
Erm, just throwing stuff out there concerning Ministry interference:
They didn't seem to care too much about who inherits what when they let a suppossed mass-muderer on the run take ownership of a house previously owned by a family of obviously pro-Voldemorts. Y'know, full of dark-ish items and whatnot.
So, it seems rather unlikely the Ministry plans to step in and worry about legal issues like wills.
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Jimi - Jul 5, 2004 5:29 am (#52 of 365)
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned, but I feel that it is appropriate to say "I offered it to Dumbledore, it's about the only useful thing I've been able to do" or something similar, (Sirius - Order of the Phoenix) so it seems to me that the house will be kept in control of the order, and more specifically Dumbledore.
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almightykneazle33 - Jul 6, 2004 9:06 pm (#53 of 365)
I am the Almighty Kneazle. Do not ask questions.
Oh yaaa Jimi, I totally forgot about that.. Does that mean that he signed it over to them though? Personally, I still believe that everyone (legally wise) probably still thinks Mrs. Black is alive and well, taking care of the house... its not as if the Blacks were ever totally legal.. at least not in my eyes!
``--the almighty kneazle--``
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 7, 2004 5:43 am (#54 of 365)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Having just read all the psts in this thread, I have lots of different points to make. I'll try to keep things organized.
Sirius's will, if there is one
I highly doubt there are wills per se in the WW. Probate court would seem as barbaric as stitches to a wizard. I see some sort of magical means of passing down property. In a fan fic I have partially written that will probably never see the light of day, I had Sirius perform a Testementus charm which I made up. He wrote his wishes on a piece of parchment, Lupin signed it, Sirius performed the charm on the parchment and now Lupin as magical executor is required to fulfill the wishes on the paper. He cannot go against the wishes because of the charm. No fuss, no muss, no lawyers. Do you really think their are wizard lawyers? From all the legal things we have seen (pensieve, Harry's trial), there are no lawyers. I have not heard of post Hogwart's education, and the kids don't appear to learn about probating wills in History of MAgic. So I assume that means no lawyers, and that means no standard wills.
Sirius would have wanted Harry taken care of
Did you all forget about the big pile of gold already in Harry's vault? Harry is not in dire straights. While Sirius probably would want Harry to inherit his estate, Harry's survival or even monetary comfort does not depend on it.
What about Kreacher
There was some speculation (by me, and others) in the S.P.E.W. thread that house-elves belong to the house, not to wizards. Read the thread for more info (my post on the subject is #77). But if the theory is correct, Kreacher would belong to whoever next owned 12GMP. He would not be free to go. If that is the case, it is the more important reason for Sirius to leave a magical version of a will. To leave 12GMP and with it KReacher, to someone in the order or Harry.
Muggle laws misintepreted I am not sure how the law works in England. However, in america, you have to legally disown someone before they lose their intestate rights (inheritance without a will). I have read cases where there was lots of evidence that the deceased hated a relative, even tried to make a will excluding them. The will was found not legal and the person they hated still got the money. So Sirius' mom sitting at home blasting names fof the family tree would not be enough to prvent inheritence if the intestate rule are similar to muggle American ones. People generally do not take the time to legally disown cousins.
Also, assets of fugitives are usually frozen, but this didn't happen with Sirius, so wizard laws are probably different. I don't see the Goblins letting the MoM tell them what to do.
Finally, if there is no body, people are declared dead after a certain amount of time passes. Witnesses generally are not accepted in muggle law. However, witnesses can speed up the wait on the missing person thing. For example imagine that someone drowned in the water and people saw it. The body was never found. They might only wait 3 months to declare the person dead instead of 2 years. So if there are not magical ways to tell if someone is dead, the Order should just report Sirius missing and wait a few years to worry about inheritence, assuming muggle law applies.
Final thoughts
I am not even sure this will be addressed. I'd like an explanation of what killed Sirius before an explanation of how his estate is handled. If it is discussed, I assume there is some magical will type procedure and Sirius took advantage of it because being in the order could mean death. I doubt they will have problems with the ministry. Harry will probably get most of the stuff, but I hope Lupin and the Weasley's get lots. And I assume 12GMP will stay with the order no matter what. That said, it would be interesting if the Malfoys got their hands on it....but not as interesting as Vernon, Petunia and Dudley somehow being forced to live there with harry.
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 15, 2004 12:36 am (#55 of 365)
As far as Kreacher is concerned, I also don't see anyone letting him go. However, I think he will have to 'disappear' - Harry, for one, will not be able to stomach his presence. I wonder (as have others) if he might not make a nice lunch for Buckbeak (who won't bat an eyelid at killing a house-elf, and who has bad memories of Kreacher anyway). As for what Hermione thinks, once she finds out that Kreacher deliberately mistreated Bucky, I think she might understand...
I suspect that 12GP will go to the Order until the war is over, and then revert to Harry when he is in his majority. How many more of us think/suppose that Sirius might leave his money to the Weasleys? They might honour his memory enough to not refuse it. And yes, Lupin could probably do with a few Galleons his way...
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Angel of the North - Jul 15, 2004 1:47 pm (#56 of 365)
Tea, dammit
From my experience of the Muggle inheritance system in the UK it doesn't seem to be nearly so barbaric as the US system with the litigation and the figths. There's been some high profile ones recently, but generally what is said in the will goes.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dumbledore had made it a condition of joining the order that all the members had to submit a will to be held at his office or at a magical mediator.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 15, 2004 3:20 pm (#57 of 365)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Edited by Jul 15, 2004 3:30 pm
Just to clarify, and I know this is straying a bit off topic, the US muggle probate system honors all valid wills. If the will is valid, what is said in it goes (with a few exceptions regarding conditions you cannot impose on someone before they inherit). However, there has to be witnesses and the person have to be of sound mind, and it has to be in a certain form to make sure it is really what the deceased wanted and was not forged or coerced. The US sounds like the UK system in that generally what is said goes. There are a few high-profile ones that you hear about where the will is contested. You don't hear about the ones where everything goes smoothly.
I do agree that DD might suggest some sort of will, magical or muggle, for order members. I am not sure he would require it. I mean what is the point of Lupin making a will. He has nothing to give and nobody to give it too (Poor Lupin ). Given 12GMP's importance, DD might have strongly suggested Sirius make a will. But also nobody expected Sirius to go out and fight given his status as a fugitive, so would they really consider it a priority in his case?
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Angel of the North - Jul 15, 2004 3:22 pm (#58 of 365)
Tea, dammit
I think there is always the gifting of secrets...
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Tomoé - Jul 15, 2004 9:26 pm (#59 of 365)
Back in business
I don't think Sirius made a will since the Order reformed, I think he made it back when James was still alive. Since he had not the opportunity to rewrite it, his will is still the same as he left it before he entered Azkaban.
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Hermione Weasley - Jul 17, 2004 12:30 pm (#60 of 365)
Lady Nagini, this is regarding thread #39: "I know JKR said in an interview that we'll see a new Minister in book 6, but she didn't specify when."
I must have missed this when she said it!! Help! Where is it??
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Julia. - Jul 17, 2004 9:10 pm (#61 of 365)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Here it is Hermione Weasley. (Great name, by the way! )
miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next books?
JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of information, I hear you cry! (World Book Day Chat, March 2004)
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Hermione Weasley - Jul 18, 2004 8:15 pm (#62 of 365)
Julia! Thanks!!
Also thanks for replying! I actually happened to find the quote after I posted so...
She gave a lot of great information didn't she?! I know this is off thread but...never mind...it's WAY off thread. Hermione!
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mike miller - Jul 19, 2004 7:42 am (#63 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Tomoe - I think Sirius did update his will. Several things have changed since the original Order was formed, the death of Harry's parents and the granting of #12GP as Order HQ being the two most significant. Sirius had plenty of time to update his will being stuck in #12.
I still think the reading of Sirius's will being the best reason to shorten Harry's stay at #4PD since it opens the door for so many things to happen that can advance the storyline. Harry needs to deal with Sirius's death and we need to find out more about the events of VWI. Going through some of Sirius's personal effects, probably with Remus, gives JKR the opporrtunity to provide any background information she deems necessary.
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remiden - Jul 21, 2004 7:43 am (#64 of 365)
The only way I could see Petunia, Vernon, and Dudley being forced to move to 12 GP is that the house is in fact left to Harry, but since you have to be 17 in the wizard world to be of age, then Harry may have to have is guardians live there with him.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 10:19 am (#65 of 365)
Hey, what if Kreacher inherits. That would be a hoot. Out goed to OOtP.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 21, 2004 5:14 pm (#66 of 365)
Let it snow!
The subject of inheritance came up on the "CoS/HBP" thread:
S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2004 5:24 pm (#253 of 264)
Sirius mentions in PoA to Harry, "I'm your godfather..... Well... your parents appointed me you guardian. If anything happened to them...". That makes it sound like it was down in James and Lily's will that Sirius would become Harry's guardian if they died (I know many people in the US use the term 'godparent' to refer to a guardian, my brother chose "godparents" that would become my niece's guardians should anything happen to him). If they were in the US and Harry had thus legally transferred (I don't think I like that word) to Sirius, he'd be Sirius's ward or something now, right? Would that place Harry in line to inherit anything of Sirius's now that he's dead?
Hogs Head - Jul 20, 2004 6:55 pm (#255 of 264)
A guardianship, in and of itself, normally does not endow the ward with any right to inherit from the guardian as it pertains to the guardian's own property. The guardian, however, is often the trustee of property of the ward's parents, holding it for the benefit of the ward until the ward reaches majority. The latter would not apply to 12 Grimmauld Place, as that was Sirius's own property. Yes, the fact that the Potter's had designated Sirius as guardian is some indication that they left behind something -- what to us would be legal documents -- appointing Sirius to fill that role. Depending upon the locale, that could be done either in a Will itself or in documents logically accompanying a Will. How that would be effected in JKR's imaginary Wizard World is for her to tell us.
But the point carries over -- the careful people who are thoughtful enough to formally appoint guardians for their infant children while still in their 20s or 30s are also the same careful people who write and leave behind valid Wills. (And, if in the Wizard World we suppose that this is done by incantation instead of document, that just makes it easier.) With many exceptions of course, it might be logical that someone who had actually become a guardian, i.e., where the guardianship was activated by the death of the parents, would also be such a careful person. So, it might be an educated guess to suppose that Sirius left behind a Will with an express conveyance of 12 Grimmauld Place to someone.
S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2004 7:12 pm (#256 of 264)
Do you know anything about Medieval law? That seems like an odd question, doesn't it.... If someone had appointed a child their ward or heir in their will, wouldn't that child then inherit? Or does the child have to be specifically stated as their sole heir in the will?
---
So what about the heir thing?
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Hogs Head - Jul 21, 2004 7:58 pm (#67 of 365)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
If Harry is designated as Sirius's heir in a Will (or Wizarding World equivalent, such as an incantation, etc.), then he might have inherited 12 Grimmauld Place (or even the Famous Flying Motor Bike!).
But he might also have inherited more important things from the Black family lineage, perhaps?
Suppose further that Sirius took steps inter vivos (i.e., while he was alive) to formally adopt Harry (unknown to us). I wonder if (in the Wizarding World) those steps can survive Sirius's death? (They would not survive in our forlorn Muggle world.) But could Harry also become entitled to "family status" with Bellatrix, Narcissa and, heaven forbid, Draco? Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm?"
(Yes, of course he's dead, as in dead = dead.)
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S.E. Jones - Jul 21, 2004 8:33 pm (#68 of 365)
Let it snow!
This is where my question about medieval law comes in (Elanor where'd you go?). Sirius, even though he was blasted off the Black family tapestry, was still the last remaining male heir of the family, thus he inherited. So, if he claimed someone as his heir in a will, does anyone think that that person (Harry) would be in line to inherit the Black family holdings too? The Wizarding world seems to be an odd mesh of modern and medieval legal systems. I know that there were several ways of inheriting things at various times in English history. I'm just trying to figure out how JKR might weave it.
On another note, if Sirius inherited his family's vault and named Harry his heir, and Harry inherited his parents' vault, then Sirius's vault and possessions, and then the Black family vault and possessions, he may very well end up one very wealthy kid....
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Tomoé - Jul 21, 2004 8:42 pm (#69 of 365)
Back in business
LOL! He'll find himself in the top of the richest people list published in the Gringotts Journal. ^_^
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contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 9:02 pm (#70 of 365)
Here is a question. Sirius inherited even though his mother hated him. This suggests what she said had little to do with what happened. Was he in for a life sentence at Azkaban at the time? The question is, if someone else inherits will it matter. Could they even find the place even if they found out about it. Would Dumbledore have to tell them?
But...... If that is true, how did Kreacher get back to 12 Grimmauld after going to the Malfoy estate. Did Dumbledore tell him, or did he already know. And....if he already knew, wouldn't the rest of the family know also?
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S.E. Jones - Jul 21, 2004 10:46 pm (#71 of 365)
Let it snow!
Contess Lillein Asend: But...... If that is true, how did Kreacher get back to 12 Grimmauld after going to the Malfoy estate. Did Dumbledore tell him, or did he already know.
I had a theory about the Fidelius charm once that said the charm had to be cast on a place (12 Grimmauld Place, Potter house) and a recipient (the Order, the Potters) to allow someone to hide. (Otherwise, when the Potters' house was hidden, they wouldn't have been able to find it unless they were told, and how would you tell a 1-yr-old and have them understand something like that?) Well, if that's true, then Kreacher, being magically bound to the place would be automatically included in the recipients.
As for knowing, you can know where something under the Fidelius charm is at, you just can't see it unless you are let in on the secret.
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Elanor - Jul 21, 2004 11:19 pm (#72 of 365)
Hi everybody ! Sorry for being late, but with the time difference (8 am, on thursday, for me now...), it isn't easy for me to follow all the discussions live !
Well, concerning inheritance, I agree with your conclusions S.E. I think that if Sirius left a will which claimed Harry as his only heir, Harry will come into all Sirius's properties. But, as Sirius still have relatives, the latter could contest its validity : I don't imagine the Malfoy letting Harry inherit all the Black family's properties without sayaing a word, don't you? Now, if Sirius hasn't left a testament, Harry, as any other godson, will have no rights at all, the godfather's obligation being more moral than legal. Yet, even if Sirius left a will, Harry may not be the only heir. What if he gave part of it to he Order to help them carry on their fight? I mean : couldn't he have left the House to Dumbledore himself or the whole order, transfering by the way Kreacher's bond to him or them ? (sorry, if this was already said, I haven't read all the previous messages...).
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2004 9:20 am (#73 of 365)
S E Jones, on the godparent thing - under British law the godparents can become legal guardians one the death of the parents. This is not adoption. Basically the godparents become a child's trustees. They are responsible for the finances of the child, and can invest the capital if they as a body feel that this is correct. This is one of the reasons why godparents are often chosen from uncles and aunts. Also it is traditional in Britain at least to have three godparents. Two of the same gender as the child and one of the opposite gender. I wouldn't be suprised if Dumbledore was the other godfather.
I know I speak to my godson as "your godfather" even though I know there is another one.
Elanor is correct in that if Sirius did not leave a will then Harry will not inherit. Under Bitish law (changed in the 1920's and again much more recently) it is a close relative who inherits if there is no will. This is a parent, child, brother or sister. If none of these exist then it is a first cousin, uncle or aunt. This then allows for Nymphadora Tonks (I think), Bellatrix or Narcissa. Lucius is cousin by marriage so is ruled out, as are the other Lestranges. Draco is too distant, as are the Weasleys.
The problem is that where is the evidence for Sirius's death? Bellatrix escaped, will they believe the words of Harry, Kingsley and Lupin as they were the ones conscious when Sirius went through the arch? As Sirius was still a criminal there may be issues over the legality of any will. But Lucius's position as a captured Death Eater, with that of Bellatrix as an escaped Death Eater, may actually negate Narcissa'a and Bellatrix's claim. As Bellatrix caused Sirius's death she may not be allowed to inherit as you can not inherit from someone you killed in cold blood. While she did not use AK, she was aware of the arch and realised that a stunning hex or similar could have resulted in Sirius's death. This would make her guilty of murder and unable to profit from her crime. As Lucius is implied in this Narcissa may also be unable to inherit, Lucius being what is know as an accessory, and Narcissa being aware of her husband's activities. This then leaves Nymphadora Tonks as next of kin. Kreacher will not like this, but tough.
If Nymohadora is unable to inherit then Sirius will be "intestate" that is without someone to inherit the Black family welath and property. The house, the Gringotts bank account and everything else will then become the property of the Ministry of Magic, that is if the wizarding world follows the lines of the Muggle one.
Edit - sorry about the length of post.
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Gina R Snape - Jul 27, 2004 11:59 am (#74 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
This is very interesting, Phelim. And you got me thinking. What if Sirius' death isn't reported officially? Then 12GP can stay in the Order's use, but in a state of flux.
This would leave Kreacher looking for a home, but only if he know Sirius were dead. And if no one tells him...
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Hogs Head - Jul 27, 2004 3:26 pm (#75 of 365)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Two further thoughts. First, if Harry inherits from Sirius as the result of a valid Will what will that inheritance entail? Let's assume that it is everything Sirius had to bequeath, so what was that? Aside from 12 Grimmauld Place and the Flying Motor Bike? Lots of "ifs" here but one more -- it is at least possible that the house Narcissa (and her family) are living in is itself a Black family possession and not a Malfoy family possession. So, you could conceivably have Harry coming into possession of the Malfoy Mansion with its trap door, etc. That would be hilarious and would allow for great mischief.
Second thought -- the Black family estate might entail more than just physical possessions, vaults, etc. It might also entail rights, privileges and powers. The equivalent of board seats on or controlling interests in corporations, country club memberships, libraries (with books full of secrets and spells), magical gadgets, etc.
This might be just a really large red herring thread, but it also has the potential to be very important to the plot development.
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Madame Librarian - Jul 27, 2004 3:48 pm (#76 of 365)
What an interesting idea, Gina, that somehow Sirius's death could be kept a secret to the general Wizarding public. However, there are so many who already know about, I don't think it'd be easy to keep things hush-hush for very long. Remember how DD teases Harry a bit at the end of PS with the idea that he insisted what happened with Quirrell was to remain top secret, therefore it is all over the school? Well, I believe the same thing is true for this unfortunate occurrance.
Ciao. Barb
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TomProffitt - Jul 27, 2004 5:55 pm (#77 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
Kingsley is the auror in charge of the hunt for the escaped mass murderer Sirius Black. If Kingsley says he died in the fight at the DoM I believe that the WW will accept his death.
Can something under a Fidelius Charm go before probate without the Secret Keeper's say so?
If he didn't say so would he be in contempt?
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Elanor - Jul 27, 2004 11:38 pm (#78 of 365)
Hi Phelim and thanks a lot for the interesting points you revealed. I’m historian, not a jurist at all, and I was only refering to what I knew concerning medieval laws, and it is really interesting to see how they evolved. Three points have attracted my attention :
1) Have you notice that even if Sirius’ mother loathed him she didn’t actually disinherit him ? I was wondering why... Maybe, in the WW, couln’t she disinherit him ? Or, did she loathed the rest of the family even more than him : she agreed whith Voldemort first, but after all Death Eaters killed her favorite son, so she woudn’t let them inherit... Or maybe was she too proud to ever recognize Sirius was right but still remember he was her son...
2) You said that with « Bellatrix as an escaped Death Eater, may actually negate Narcissa'a and Bellatrix's claim ». But we know that when Sirius’ mother died he was already in Azkaban convicted of murder and being a Voldemort’s supporter (in OotP, Sirius says : ‘No one’s lived here for ten years, not since my dear mother died’). And, after that, he was still an escaped prisoner, but inherited just the same... He also says : « This was my parent’s house. But I’m the last Black left, so it’s mine now ». So, maybe his dear cousins, even convicted of being Death Eaters, should be allowed to inherit now, shouldn’t they ?
3) What you said about godfathers is really interesting : I think we’ll ear soon of his other godfather. You said : « godparents are often chosen from uncles and aunts », therefore, there is a probability that Petunia is Harry’s Godmother : even if she disagreed with Lily’s way of life, she has given proofs she still was attached to family traditions. Maybe didn’t she dare refuse it because it is traditional and the neighbours would have talk if she had...
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 28, 2004 12:34 am (#79 of 365)
"So, maybe his dear cousins, even convicted of being Death Eaters, should be allowed to inherit now, shouldn’t they ?"
Narcissa, possibly. (She might not even be a Death Eater for all we know.) Bellatrix, definitely not. (Unless found innocent of murdering Sirius, or unless the wizards' justice system is completely messed up...)
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 28, 2004 3:39 am (#80 of 365)
Elanor. If Mrs Black did not make a will, then the Black estate would pass to Sirius as, even though he was in Azkaban, he was a the last surviving son. The nearest to be able to inherit. Also he was convicted as a presumed Voldemort supporter. As Mrs Black agreed with Voldemorts stance (if not his actions publically) then to have a son who was involved with The Darl Lord may have been a source of pride - Sirius had redeemed himself. Also, as his crime did not profit him by bringing about his inheritance then he could still inherit even if he was not able to get to his inheritance.
As to Bellatrix and Narcissa, Bellatrix would financially gain from her crime. You can not do this under English law. A convicted criminal is not allowed to get payment from paers of publishers for the story of the crime. So this rules out Bellatrix.
Narcissa is a grey area. Her husband is now a convicted Death Eater. He was involved in the attempt to steal the prophecy and the ensuing fight that led to Sirius's death. (As the prophecy carried Harry's name it could be argued that he was not stealing the prophecy as only he and Voldemort could take it from the shelf). As such Lucius would be guilty of Sirius's death by his involvment. He could have acted to prevent Sirius's death but did not. If Narcissa was aware of her husband's role as a Death Eater then she would be guilty of being an accesory to her husband's crime. While Narcissa could technically be possible to inherit the Black estate, this may not be allowed due to her passive involvment in the criminal activities of her husband.
I agree though with the possibility of Petunia being Harry's godmother. But I'm not convinced as Petunia chose to distance herself from the Potter's, though this does not explain how Petunia knew Harry's name. But I do believe that Dumbledore is another godfather.
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ShelterGirl - Jul 28, 2004 5:59 am (#81 of 365)
Can a legal guardian assign another legal guardian in the event of death? I'm only asking because I had some thoughts that Sirius may have indeed prepared a will before his supposed demise in which he left not only 12GP but also the guardianship of Harry to Lupin.
In the WW Sirius is considered the legal guardian, and this might supercede any claims that Petunia might (but probably won't) make.
Harry still has a couple of years to go before he is considered of age.
I'm not sure how it works in Britain, but in the US being named a godparent doesn't always imply guardianship in the event of the death of the parents. I'm the godmother of my friend's twin boys, but she also had to prepare a document stating that if anything happens to her I would be the guardian of the boys.
Just my 2 knuts...
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 28, 2004 7:11 am (#82 of 365)
Harry is now, or soon will be 16 in the books. As such he would no longer require a legal guardian. As of sixteen in the UK, while you can not vote, you can do other things. Also this is the age where children's homes do not have to house you. Also, while Sirius was the godfather he never fufiled his guardianship role, except in the Hogmeads letter. Officially (to the Muggle World) Harry was the ward of Petunia and Dursley.
But to answer the question asked. On the Death of Harry's parents he would have first have been the responsibility of the remaining family. Then the guardians/god-parents. They are able to make legal provision for the care of the child (as far as I am aware) for if they are unable to fulfil that role through either illness or death. But as Harry is about to turn 16 this is irrelivant. But this is part of what leads me to believe that DD is one of Harry's god-parents.
Sorry for being so boring, but I had to research this for a crime novel I'm writing.
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Elanor - Jul 28, 2004 9:18 am (#83 of 365)
Thanks a lot for all this interesting informations, it wasn't boring at all but enlightening ! Narcissa's case is really interesting, because, if there is even just a little vagueness of the law, she may try to exploit it. The Malfoy already managed, thanks to their gold, to "ask favours... delay laws he doesn't want passed..." (OotP, p.142), therefore contest a will... Well, of course, Lucius Malfoy will be less influential, even if he escapes from Azkaban, but he may still have useful relations., don't you think so?
By the way, I love the idea of DD being Harry's second godfather. You're right, it would explain why he was the one who decided Harry had to go to live with the Dursleys. You definitely put your finger on something here...
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Gina R Snape - Jul 28, 2004 10:06 am (#84 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think if Kingsley must report Sirius' death, then it shall be accepted. However, if there is a way to keep things hush-hush, they may try to do that.
I also think that Mrs. Black might not have 'bothered' to take her son off the tapestry when he entered Azkaban, thinking he'd be there forever anyway. I doubt she was proud of him, because even Sirius said she was a supporter until they saw exactly how far the Dark Lord was willing to go to meet his goals. It's impossible to say for sure, though. But I'd think her portrait would be happy to see Sirius if she thought he was a 'redeemed pureblood.'
Of course, none of this answers the question of what will happen to 12GP. But it is just my hunch that DD will not eagerly give up such a gem of a location.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 28, 2004 3:49 pm (#85 of 365)
Let it snow!
Well, in Harry's case it was the guardian who should've taken him, not the remaining family, as that seems to have been James and Lily's wish and it seems that they made the wish known in some way (I'm guessing a will). Sirius tells Harry that "...your parents appointed me you guardian. If anything happened to them..." so it seems that it was official that Sirius was to become Harry's guardian upon his parents' death.
As to inheriting Grimmauld Place, the reason I was asking about Medieval law is that the wizarding world seems to be an odd mix of the medieval and the modern. Sirius was "booted" off the family tapestry but, when the other heir (Regulus) died, he was the sole remainig Black (i.e. sole remaining male Black) and thus could inherit. Here the inheritance seems to be based more on certain lines within the blood than wishes, i.e. more medieval than modern. I'm guessing whoever Sirius named as his heir will be able to inherit. In the case that he didn't name an heir, then the female members of the family might be able to lay claims. I doubt they could contest a will too much as Sirius was the male heir and the eldest son....
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 29, 2004 2:47 am (#86 of 365)
Gina R Snape, if Mrs Black's portrait was painted before Sirius had redeemed himnself by being a supporter of Voldemort (as far as the public new) would it have the attitude of the mother at the time of her death? Possibly, possibly not. Also how up to date with his mother's attitude was Sirius if he was not speaking to his family. The Malfoy's appeared to be less than supportive of Voldemort but Lucius is a Death Eater, so how do we know the real extent of the support of the Blacks. Remember, Bellatrix was still on the tapestry even with her crime which suggests being a Death Eater wasn't that bad.
I agree with you though about DD not giving up Grimauld Place. Sorry I guess its going to go to either Harry or Tonks depending on how the Wizarding world plays inheritance.
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Gina R Snape - Jul 29, 2004 10:02 am (#87 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, portraits seem 'current' and 'alive' so my guess is Mrs. Black's portrait may never have been told about Sirius' imprisonment. Even if he had, when she saw him return to the house, his attitudes hadn't changed. So, for her it would be the same old blood traitor son. So I guess I answered my own question!
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Hollywand - Jul 30, 2004 10:15 pm (#88 of 365)
Gryffindor
Just a suggestion about Grimmauld Place in the text. It's meant as a clue that Sirius will die primarily. A Grim is a black dog, a harbinger of death, 13 minus one is 12. Sibyll Trelawney first sees Sirius approaching as a Grim, but Harry and Ron ignore it.
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Gina R Snape - Jul 31, 2004 7:13 pm (#89 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, you want to hear something creepy? Denise posted on the board after her first reading that when Harry walks in the door, he thinks to himself that 12GP had that creeping feeling of being a home where someone were about to die. Really good catch, eh?
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Hollywand - Jul 31, 2004 8:01 pm (#90 of 365)
Gryffindor
So, you wouldn't think that Harry would want to return to 12 Grimmauld. All those wailing portraits, a surly house elf, a reminder of the last place Sirius lived? Possibly Bellatrix knows the location? Nope. For a young man who frequently gives away everything he's won, I don't think he will want the place.
I imagined the place to vanish with Sirus' fall through the veil as he was the last of the Blacks. I'm just cranky I missed so many clues about his death that were in plain sight. That Rowling's a clever one.
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Hermione Weasley - Aug 1, 2004 9:16 pm (#91 of 365)
Bellatrix, even if she knows that the house is there, would not possibly be able to see the house due to the Fidelius Charm. She could be pressing her nose up against the glass and still not see it. (exact quote I don't know...books in storage...going into withdrawal....ack!!)
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Julia. - Aug 1, 2004 9:26 pm (#92 of 365)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Awww, poor Hermione, I feel for you with books in storage, I would never be able to live with out mine. Here's the quote you're looking for.
"As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Konw-Who could search the billage where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window." (PoA ch. 10, pg. 205 US)
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Madame Librarian - Aug 2, 2004 5:20 am (#93 of 365)
Doesn't that quote imply that the place is still visible, but that the people aren't? I suppose a place could be under the charm, too.
Aaaack! The Fidelius charm is one of the ones that confounds me the most. I'm worried that we Muggles invoke it as a reason or device in too many unclear instances.
But, this is not the place to discuss it. I was just suggesting that we don't exactly know what's meant when DD placed the protections around 12 GP. It just strikes me a very odd that Bellatrix or the other DEs who probably knew quite well where the Black mansion was, suddenly search around saying, "Grindelwald's goatee! I'm absolutely sure that old house was on this block. I've been there dozens of times. Where the bloody hell is it?"
On another tack, Harry could very well want to be able to poke around in the house to look for things from Sirius (the bike? and diary? special messages for him?). Whether he'd like to own the place, well...not sure.
Ciao. Barb
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TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2004 5:49 am (#94 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
"Grindelwald's goatee! I'm absolutely sure that old house was on this block. I've been there dozens of times. Where the bloody hell is it?" ---Madame Librarian
I would not be surprised at all if they had that very experience. When the place was selected as HQ no one had yet escaped from Azkaban. And the guard was not a formality at all. If no one else, I would bet that Moody expected to bump into an escaped Death Eater wondering why he couldn't find the Black place.
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Hermione Weasley - Aug 2, 2004 5:58 pm (#95 of 365)
Julia. Thanks!!!
Madam Librarian, didn't Sirius say "My father put every security known to Wizard-kind on it when he lived here. It's Unplottable, so Muggles could never come and call-as if they'd have wanted to-and now Dumbledore's added his protection, you'd be hard put to find a safer house anywhere. Dumbledore's Secret-Keeper for the Order, you know-nobody can find headquarters unless he tells them personally where it is" (By the way, OoP is the only book not in storage).
So even if Bellatrix or the other DE's knew where the HQ are they would still never find it. That's what I am thinking anyway. So there is no reason that the Order could not stay there unless they can't due to inheritance issues which is why we are discussing it. Right? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Gina R Snape - Aug 2, 2004 8:15 pm (#96 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think you are absolutely correct. My guess is, an ordinarly fidelius charm hides a person/people. But these extras make the house itself invisible and undetectable.
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Hermione Weasley - Aug 2, 2004 8:19 pm (#97 of 365)
Thanks!
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MrsGump - Aug 5, 2004 6:37 pm (#98 of 365)
I know this is slightly off topic, but this is the closest thread I could find to post this.
Does anyone else find it odd the Mrs. Black is shrieking "THE HOUSE OF MY FATHERS" when it's the noble house of Black? As in, her husband's family? Or is the Black family so in-breed that Black was her madian name too? First cousins?
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Gina R Snape - Aug 5, 2004 7:01 pm (#99 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
LOL.
Well, lots of people call their father-in-law 'father' or 'dad.' Or maybe she means forefathers in a broader sense, as she is/was a major force in the Black family once she married into it.
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Hermione Weasley - Aug 5, 2004 8:25 pm (#100 of 365)
MrsGump,
Along that line of thinking, if the Blacks were pureblood and all are related per Sirius (don't know the exact quote) then how closely related are they? JKR knows. But the thing that I'm wondering is closely interbreeding (I know I don't like the terms either) generally end up with genetic mutation and retardation and the like, why don't pureblood wizards show that as well? Is it a magical circumstance that prevents it? Or is it that the mutations and retardation ARE shown but evolved into weird magical talent? Anybody else?
EDIT: I know it's slightly off topic but where else should I put it?
EDIT AGAIN: I got the 100th thread post!! Milestone! I haven't done that yet!
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Who's Going to Inherit 12 Grimmauld Place (Post 101 to 150)
Elanor Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:48 am
MrsGump - Aug 6, 2004 6:46 am (#101 of 365)
Well, in-breeding itself is not bad (and does not cause retardation or mutations). What it does do is increase the chances of having the same traits. (In the case of the Royals and hemophilia, it increased the chances of a bad trait, but close marriages was not the cause. Does that make any sense?).
But I don't think JKR has a clue about genetics or cares, as far as the story goes, so I don't think it's going to be a factor.
But how closely related they are might be. Any of the purebloods we've seen could be a branch on that tree. Harry didn't look too close for us. :-) Phineas did call Sirius the "last of the Blacks" so there is no one to carry on the name, now.
I do think there have been some interesting suggestions on this thread, like Sirius transferring the house to DD for the order already, or Tonks being next in line. I'm not sure what to think.
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S.E. Jones - Aug 12, 2004 4:28 pm (#102 of 365)
Let it snow!
MrsGump: Does anyone else find it odd the Mrs. Black is shrieking "THE HOUSE OF MY FATHERS" when it's the noble house of Black? As in, her husband's family? Or is the Black family so in-breed that Black was her madian name too? First cousins?
I've actually thought about that. I think it's either that, as Gina pointed out, she considered herself a Black after she married Mr. Black, or they (the Blacks) were living in her family home. It's rather common in English history for nobles to keep their titles and lands but lose their family money. Maybe in this case they did sort of the opposite - they kept their standing (they're still purebloods) and their money but lost their land. In that case, Mr. Black may have inherited the Black family tapestry and silver but no house and so moved into her family's house when they married. Or, maybe Mr. Black was the younger brother (we know he had a brother because the Black sisters seem to be Sirius's first cousins). If that were the case, the elder brother would've gotten the house and Sirius dad may have moved into his wife's house upon their marriage. Both of the latter possibilities actually makes it the house of "her fathers" without there being any familiar connection between her and her husband.
P.S. In-breeding is bad, but only after a certain point. If you go within a certain degree of "closeness" you start repeating recessive, deletarious traits which can lead to mental retardation, mutations (most recessive traits are technically mutations), and other problems. That's why there are laws in the US preventing marriage of siblings and, at least in most states, first cousins. (Sorry, just the geneticist in me coming out.)
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 13, 2004 5:19 am (#103 of 365)
A similar law exists here in the UK. It also reaches to uncles and aunts.
I like the point of Sirius's animage form being a dog as often the problem with pedegree dogs is that they have been so in bred. And as Sirius talked about all pure bloods being related, to prevent pollution of the stock, the idea of Mrs Black marrying a relation makes sense. But what does this mean to the inheritance issue?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 13, 2004 10:19 am (#104 of 365)
Phelim McIntyre, I believe it means that the Lestrange, Tonks, and Malfoy may have a claim to number 12 GP> However, it is my understanding that it was not always the case that an inheritance could not be inherited by a daughter or other female relation especially if there were any son or other close male relation under the doctrine of primogeniture.
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Gemini Wolfie - Aug 13, 2004 8:14 pm (#105 of 365)
New to the thread. It seems Gringotts is outside of Ministry control so accounts are never frozen? You know when Mrs. Weasley got school supplies for Harry, do we assume that Harry had written her an authorization to withdraw money from his account?
My English history isn't really that good, but since Pureblood families mimic families of old age, is it possible that Sirius' mother had no power to disown Sirius? If Sirius' father did not leave a will that specifically passed the Black estate and all its possessions to his wife, that would have made Sirius the rightful owner all along and not Mrs. Black. Which means that if Sirius had indeed made a will, all other relatives of Blacks would have no legal claim on Blacks' estate. We also know that Kreacher is not allowed to leave the house without permission so we can be sure he'll be staying at Grimmauld.
I also suspect that wills that are countersigned by a certain number of wizards will be binding and perhaps guardianship works in a similar fashion.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 14, 2004 11:04 pm (#106 of 365)
Who's going to inherit? I'm convinced it will be Harry. Sirius will have made a will, or the wizarding equivalent of one, leaving everything to Harry, the closest thing to family that he had. Who else would he have wanted to leave it to?
Or else he made a will before Voldemort's attack and his own arrest and never got a chance to update it--and he left everything to Lily and James. Young as he was, he'd have been seeing people his age dying right and left, and that might've prompted him to make one. True, Sirius hadn't inherited 12 Grimmauld Place yet--but his will might've read something like, "I leave all of my property and assets, whatever they may be, to Lily and James Potter." Either way, Harry inherits.
If Sirius did update his will, I can see him attaching a condition to it: that Harry will own the house, but he's to let the Order of the Phoenix continue using it.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Narcissa Malfoy tries to contest it in some way.
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Madame Librarian - Aug 15, 2004 9:43 am (#107 of 365)
M. Dragon, Narcissa may indeed be strapped for funds with husband Lucius in Azkaban. 12 GP and its attendant riches may be an important source of money for her. Of course, we know very little of how these things work in the WW, but if they are similar to some archaic laws, Lucius may be the one and only one who can control the Malfoy estate and release funds from Gringotts. While he's incarcerated (and it appears most of think that's only a temporary condition), Narcissa and snotty Draco may be poor as paupers. What an interesting scene that would be, with Narcissa and Draco showing up at the solicitor's office when the will reading takes place.
Ciao. Barb
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 16, 2004 10:39 am (#108 of 365)
Not only will Narcissa be strapped for funds--but what if there's something at 12 Grimmauld Place that she doesn't want Harry to get his hands on--or she believes it's there?
I'm thinking of another discussion I've read--not sure whether it was on this forum or somewhere else--where someone thought the Hand of Glory that Lucius had in CoS, that Harry saw when he got into the shop in Knockturn Alley by mistake, was the clue in Book 2 that would lead to the half blood prince. They pointed out that the Knockturn Alley scene was included in the movie, when it's insignificant enough to the plot to have been left out, and they suggested that it was included because JK said it would be important later. And I think the half blood prince will be connected with something of Sirius's that Harry will find. Perhaps something that belonged to one of Sirius's parents, and that Sirius himself might not even have known about.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 16, 2004 3:41 pm (#109 of 365)
I have a question. Does the Wizarding World operate on a doctrine of strict primogeniture?
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 16, 2004 5:11 pm (#110 of 365)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
...primogeniture - Right of inheritance belongs exclusively to the eldest son. Fair question! To answer it, IMO, no, we still don't know enough about how the "wizarding world" views some things we mere Muggles don't understand. "operate on a doctrine of strict primogeniture?" I don't think so, some things parallel and some do not. We still have two more books to go until we see JKR's true vision of the wizarding world.
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 17, 2004 9:58 pm (#111 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Can you see Narcissa and Harry squaring off at the will reading. Harry with his(friends)from the order and Narcissa with her(friends) the DE's.
Mikie
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Eponine - Aug 17, 2004 10:03 pm (#112 of 365)
On Mugglenet there is a report from a girl who was at the Edinburgh reading. She was able to ask JKR a couple of questions while she was getting her book signed. One of the questions she asked was whether we would find out what happens to Kreacher and 12 Grimmauld Place, she said JKR dodged the question but did say we would find out very early on what happens, right at the beginning of the book. So that could mean there will be a will reading or the wizarding equivalent of such a thing.
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Czarina II - Aug 17, 2004 10:21 pm (#113 of 365)
Interesting, Eponine. But wouldn't such a scene bog down the rest of the story? Look how long it took for Harry to get to Hogwarts at the beginning of OoP. Personally, I'd like to see such a scene because it would be a chance for us to see characters we don't normally. I love characterization. But realistically, a will-reading would be quite cumbersome unless it was revealed more in exposition than straight narration.
TwinklingBlueEyes is right that we have no idea how the wizarding equivalent of primogeniture works. In the case of wizarding folk, witches are no less powerful than wizards. The main reason that women have been subjugated in the muggle world is because of perceived physical strength. This is not so much of an issue with wizards, who can all perform equal magic. At least, magical ability has nothing to do with gender. Two of the Founders were female (in 1000, the idea of women founding a school like Hogwarts would have been thought ludicrous), by the late Middle Ages the Minister for Magic is a witch, an all-female Quidditch team exists that has done battle with the rest of the league and won several times for the past couple centuries. Thus, I fail to see why there would be such a thing as primogeniture. I think inheritance might very well go to the eldest child regardless of gender. Since Sirius inherited 12GP even though he was in prison, I think it is fair to say that he inherited from his father (since his younger brother was dead, he must have inherited it by default), who inherited from his father, etc. Bellatrix's father must be younger than Sirius's father then. Do we even know for sure if she and her sisters are descended from Sirius's uncle or his aunt? That is, would Mr Black's sibling be a brother (Mr Younger Black) or a sister (Miss Black ?)?
Hey -- maybe the Weasleys will inherit 12GP! :-) Long shot, I know, but stranger things have happened.
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Eponine - Aug 18, 2004 6:48 am (#114 of 365)
Hmmm...maybe we'll find out indirectly, like through a letter from Dumbledore or something.
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Gina R Snape - Aug 18, 2004 7:09 am (#115 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Edited by S.E. Jones Aug 18, 2004 11:47 pm
Y'know, a will reading and emergency Order meeting could be the reason Harry spends so little time at the Dursley's. Maybe the book will open up at 4 Privet Drive, then a few pages in Harry is whisked away for the will reading and the book takes off from there...
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 18, 2004 11:16 am (#116 of 365)
"Do we even know for sure if she and her sisters are descended from Sirius's uncle or his aunt?"- Czarina II
Definitely his uncle. In the wizarding world, children have their fathers' last names, and wives take their husbands' (at least, we haven't yet met a witch who's married and has kept her own name). Since Narcissa's maiden name was Black, her father was a Black.
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Padfoot - Aug 18, 2004 11:54 am (#117 of 365)
If Sirius did update his will, I can see him attaching a condition to it: that Harry will own the house, but he's to let the Order of the Phoenix continue using it. -Maddest Dragon
My only problem with this is that the Order is supposed to be secret. So informing the Ministry (or whoever) of the secret location of headquarters isn't such a good idea.
I do think the beginning of HbP will either be a funeral ceremony for Sirius or a reading of his will. If there was a will written, Harry will get the house.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 18, 2004 9:42 pm (#118 of 365)
Good point, Padfoot. I was about to say that the Ministry wouldn't necessarily know about Sirius's will--perhaps wizarding wills are really spells cast in the presence of witnesses, who then carry the magic with them (like Secret Keepers) or seal it in a safe place, like the prophecies in the Ministry of Magic. In that case, members of the Order could have served as Sirius's witnesses without betraying his whereabouts or the Order's existence. The problem with that, though, is that I like the idea of Narcissa barging in and causing trouble a little too much. For that to happen, someone outside the Order would have to find out somehow, and it could easily get back to the Ministry of Magic.
Then again, the Ministry still believes Sirius is a criminal, and still doesn't, to our knowledge, know that he's dead. Just the fact that the people in the Order knew where Sirius was and didn't turn him in could get them in major trouble, even if the Ministry doesn't find out about their secret society.
Hmmm.... perhaps it goes like this:
-Members of the Order witnessed Sirius's will, which leaves everything to Harry, provided that he let the house remain their headquarters;
-Kreacher spies on the reading of the will and goes and tells Narcissa;
-Narcissa barges in and tries to contest it, but she has a good reason not to go to the Ministry. Perhaps she would get in serious trouble herself if she did, for reasons I can't predict. Perhaps Fred and George's extendable ears or other spy tricks have picked up something they can blackmail her on.
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 19, 2004 4:12 am (#119 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Sirius died in the battle. Only participants in the battle know this. Would the ministry believe that Sirius was with the DE's rather than with the members of the Order? Makes sense and saves a little face.
You couldn't expect the DE's taken in the MOM battle to be very forthcoming about Sirius's participation. Self Incrimination.
You couldn't expect the members of the Order to admit this and implicate themselves in hiding a criminal from the ministry. Remember there is still no proof that Wormtail is actually alive and that Sirius didn't actually commit the crimes of which he was accused.
Therefore no one will inherit 12 Grimmauld Place at this time. It will exist in limbo as it did before the Order took it over as their headquarters. And considering the Narcissa, Kreacher connection the Order may well want to reconsider it's use any further.
Since Sirius's death who will be Kreacher's master?
Mikie
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Steve Newton - Aug 19, 2004 6:28 am (#120 of 365)
Librarian
Maddest,
If Harry does inherit GP then, as I understand it, Kreacher would then be his house elf and could not go to Narcissa unless Harry told him to.
3948 may have it right. Unless the MOM can tell if you are alive or not, which I doubt, than no one may believe or no one may say that Sirius is dead.
I have no idea what this would mean to Kreacher. When Winky was freed she still seemed very attached to Mr. Crouch. I would guess that Kreacher would hang around taking orders from a painting.
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Quibbler Editor In Chief - Aug 19, 2004 12:41 pm (#121 of 365)
Maybe Sirius wouldn't have to give the house to "The Order of the Phoenix" in his will. He could give it to his friend from school, Lupin (until Harry is ready for it), who would then be able to chose to use it for the Order of the Phoenix without the MOM or whoever knowing about the Order.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 19, 2004 4:38 pm (#122 of 365)
Steve, you bring up a good point. Would Kreacher become Harry's house elf? Do house elves go with the property or with the family? If it's the family, Harry isn't a Black, isn't even a blood relation. Narcissa, on the other hand, is a member of the family, the only one Kreacher could go to (Andromeda being disowned and Bellatrix on the lam).
Even if Kreacher does become Harry's, a house elf with a strong enough motivation can leave the house, like Dobby did in CoS. Kreacher might be so insulted at the thought of belonging to a half-blood traitor that it would be worth any amount of self punishment to go to Narcissa.
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DJ Evans - Aug 19, 2004 7:16 pm (#123 of 365)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Maybe I've totally forgotten a passage that would disclaim this -- that or this has already been brought up maybe? But is there any chance that Sirius could have already given #12GP to the OotP? I know Kreacher is still following Sirius' orders, so that would leave you to believe the house still belonged to Sirius. But maybe Kreacher's loyalties (what little there are) belong to Sirius/The Black Family and not the house itself? I know, I know, I'm way off base here, right? Maybe someone could point me in the right direction though? Thanks!!!
Later, Deb
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mike miller - Aug 20, 2004 8:37 am (#124 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
As I've stated before, I think Harry will inherit #12. Kreacher is definately a "loose end". The changing nature of VWII since Voldemort has made himself known will change the value of what Kreacher knows and doesn't know. I'm not sure how JKR will treat this "loose end". I think both sides know who's on the other side, so that information is not valuable. Maybe Harry will banish Kreacher from #12 and send him to Nacissa. I don't think that would seriously compromise the Order.
The opportunity to provide us with backstory is too great for JKR to not have Harry inherit #12. Harry could be looking through some of Sirius's effects with say Remus or DD and now we find out what happened at Godric's Hollow or more about James's family or the dynamics of the break-up of the Marauders or ...(insert missing piece of information)...
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Fawkes Egg - Aug 22, 2004 4:37 am (#125 of 365)
Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
I don't think Sirius gave up ownership to the Order, but he may have bequeathed it to Lupin and/or Harry as a way of making sure the Order was still able to use it when he died. Remember when Snape shows up to arrange Occlumency lessons with Harry and starts giving Harry orders, Sirius says:
"I'd appreciate it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. You see, it's my house."
That may not be an exact quote but I don't have my books to hand.
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DJ Evans - Aug 22, 2004 4:23 pm (#126 of 365)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
I had totally forgotten that bit (about Snape/Sirius' conversation)!!! Thanks for reminding me Fawkes! Well, there went that idea!
Later, Deb
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Gina R Snape - Aug 22, 2004 5:46 pm (#127 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I wonder if Harry inheriting 12GP will have an effect on his protection at Privet Drive. Could he still call Privet Drive his home if he owned a house? Or is it just a matter of being welcomed there?
If not, then Dumbledore may have warned Sirius about this, and had the house willed to him (DD) instead.
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mike miller - Aug 22, 2004 6:27 pm (#128 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Gina - You ask a good question regarding Harry's protection at #4. If reamining at #4 until his birthday is a critical element of maintaining the protection, I think Harry will be losing his protection. I've posted several ideas related to this on the "Shortest Stay Ever" thread (#223, #233 and #242) as well as this thread.
I think we will see Harry giving up his protection, with the approval (perhaps insistance from DD), in favor of more important things. Harry still has a lot to learn; and, so do we readers. Harry inheritring #12 from Sirius just creates too many opportunities for JKR to pass it up.
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Gina R Snape - Aug 22, 2004 8:27 pm (#129 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I'm not sure Mike. I think that protection might be a crucial element to the plot yet.
12GP does create many opportunities for JKR. I'm glad she said this topic will be dealt with early in the book. I have a feeling it will be setting up the story further, not a 'get it out of the way' logistic.
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mike miller - Aug 23, 2004 3:31 pm (#130 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Gina - Infortunately, we just have to wait and see!!!
I've given the nature of Harry's protection some thought and I think being with the Dursley's on his birthday (all except his first so far) and receiving a Christmas gift from they is critical to maintaining the protection. Why esle would someone give a toothpick as a gift? If this stay at #4 is to be the shortest yet, he has to leave before his birthday. The protection was set up when Harry was a baby and could not protect himself along with the fact that he would be in the Muggle world.
The reading of the will creates the perfect opportunity and I honestly believe that Harry may not be back to #4 until the conflictg with Voldemort is finished. There are more important things for Harry to be doing than making sure he has a safe refuge to return to.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 23, 2004 4:43 pm (#131 of 365)
Perhaps Harry has to either be with the Dursleys on his birthday and Christmas or receive a gift from them. He was with them on his eleventh birthday, just not for long. They've ignored the rest of his birthdays, but he was with them, so they could do that without violating the protection. However, they still have to let him call their house home, and they've been sending him a gift every Christmas, even if it was really no gift at all. (However, I don't remember a Dursley gift being mentioned in GoF or OotP.)
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S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 4:50 pm (#132 of 365)
Let it snow!
I still think his protection will be in place. He's always left some time after his birthday, so leaving on his birthday (I think he only has to be in Petunia's presence when the clock strikes 12:00am July 31) or the day after will not disrupt the protection, but still make it his shortest stay (i.e. he doesn't have to leave before his birthday, just before the usual three days go by).
Here's what we've seen thus far:
In PS, he has a birthday, Hagrid shows up at midnight, the next day (still July 31) he takes Harry away from the Dursleys to go to Diagon Alley, Harry is then returned to Privet Drive for a month before he heads off to school. [Note: He returned after leaving with Hagrid in PS, so the length of his stay is extended past his birthday. You may also want to note: Hagrid didn't knock until the clock struck 12:00, exactly.]
In CoS, he has a birthday, Dobby shows up, and then Harry is locked in his room for three days before the Weasleys show up to get him.
In PoA, he has a birthday, Marge shows up, and then he runs away after, I think, three days to a week (Vernon says she'll be there for a week, but the text says Harry got through the next three days.... At last, at long last, the final evening of Marge's stay arrived.).
In GoF, the story starts up in August (He looked hopelessly around his room again, and his eye paused on the birthday cards his two best friends had sent him at the end of July.), so after his birthday. He leaves about a day after (Saturday to Sunday).
In OotP, the story starts up in August again (Hermione and Ron had already sent him birthday cards), then three days later he leaves with the Advanced Guard.
As to what Grimmauld Place would do to his protection, Petunia still dwells at Privet Drive so that has to be taken into consideration. Her dwelling there and still making him part of her family (whether reluctantly or not) I'd think would continue the protection.....
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Madame Librarian - Aug 23, 2004 6:10 pm (#133 of 365)
I just had a grim thought. Given that the summer will be Harry's shortest stay at Privet, and that JKR confirmed an early handling of something to do with 12 GP, plus that ominous tone she uses when saying that she's very sorry she's going to put Harry through some horrible times, might it mean that a huge conflict takes place at 12 GP? The protections fail for some reason (Kreacher, a spy, whatever), the Order is under attack, HRH manage to get there to help. Too late! It's a rout, the DEs have captured the property. Or, worse--it's destroyed. Yikes!
Ciao. Barb
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S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 7:02 pm (#134 of 365)
Let it snow!
I doubt Dumbledore would allow Harry to come help if HQ was under attack. In fact, he'd probably simply have the people inside Apparate out (if possible), send word (in whatever manner Order members send messages) that no-one else was to go there since security had been breached, would send a guard to protect Harry where he is the safest (Privet Drive), and would then go himself with some reinforcements to help get whoever he can out of the besieged HQ. The house isn't what's important; it's the people who might be inside it.....
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mike miller - Aug 23, 2004 7:06 pm (#135 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
JKR has stated recently that we will see very little of the Dursley's (maybe it was just Dudley) from here on out. I think Harry has out grown his need for sanctuary at #4. Harry has more important things to do (Occulumency, advanced DADA, inheriting #12) more important places to go (Godric's Hollow). My prediction is that Harry will leave #4 before his birthday, nullifying the protection charms and will only return to confront Aunt Petunia (she knows more than we know) about his parents.
The nature of the Order will probably change now that Voldemort is out in the open. Unless Snape shows his true colors to be that of Voldemort, I think Harry will as safe as he can be at #12. The combination of DD's Fidelius Charm and Sirius's father's magic, I don't think even Voldemort can find the place.
JKR is coming into the stretch run with the story and she has to move quickly. She has stated that when she finishes the story there will be no unanswered questions. Right now, I think we all have lots of questions, so JKR has a lot of story to fill in. The last two books are likely to be very fast paced. Harry inheriting #12 makes it possible to advance the story on multiple fronts.
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 23, 2004 7:55 pm (#136 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I still say Harry cannot inherit #12 until there is a confirmation that Sirius died in the MOM battle. How is that going to happen?
I agree that Harry will eventually have #12 as a home and probably will have Dobby as his house elf. Kreacher being dispatched or other wise being removed from the scene. I also agree with you that #12 should still be safe depending on what has become of Kreacher.
But I do not see Harry inheriting #12 in HbP but in Book 7.
Mikie
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 23, 2004 8:06 pm (#137 of 365)
I doubt Dumbledore would allow Harry to come help if HQ was under attack. - S.E. Jones
I think Dumbledore's likely to have stopped being so protective of Harry, because at the end of OotP he saw what a mistake that was. Unlike mike miller, I'm not sure that Harry's outgrown his need for sanctuary at #4, but there might be a change in circumstances that makes it no longer feasible.
MickeyCee, I like your idea that Harry will inherit #12 in Book 7. Hadn't thought of that possibility. But I still think that Sirius intended to leave it to Harry, and that Harry will learn about that intention early on in Book 6. Number 12 might not fully become his until Book 7 because of some flies in the ointment--perhaps trouble caused by Narcissa, or some kind of legal (WW legal) wrangling over whether Harry can really inherit or not. Or perhaps, simply because he's underage, a guardian will be appointed until he turns 17.
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S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 8:08 pm (#138 of 365)
Let it snow!
Mike Miller: JKR has stated recently that we will see very little of the Dursley's (maybe it was just Dudley) from here on out.
Where was this? In her Edinburgh question and answer, she says "The next book, Half Blood Prince, is the least that you see of the Dursleys. You see them quite briefly. You see them a bit more in the final book, but you don’t get a lot of Dudley in book six - very few lines." I took from that that we will see little of them in HBP and then the usual mention of them in Book 7 (face it, we don't really see them a great deal anyway).
Edit:
Maddest Dragon: I think Dumbledore's likely to have stopped being so protective of Harry, because at the end of OotP he saw what a mistake that was.
I think there's a difference between being overprotective (not telling Harry things he thinks will hurt him, shielding him from the truth, etc.) and being physically protective of his person (he's the key to it all, why risk him getting hurt).
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 23, 2004 10:35 pm (#139 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I believe the only way the loose ends can be finalized is by the capture or the death and body of Pettigrew. And I don't expect that until late in book 7. By then I expect any complaints from the Malfoys or Bella will have been silenced permanently.
Mikie
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mike miller - Aug 24, 2004 4:02 am (#140 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Sarah - You've got it! That was the comment I was referring to. I think we will see more of the Dursley's in book 7 as Harry will need to question Petunia about his mother.
Is Harry ready to face his destiny? No. My thoughts about giving up the protection at #4 are more related to the activities that must be completed to maintain the protection ("home" with family on his birthday) and other events that will prevent it (ready of the will). I may be becoming narrow minded here, but I see so many opportunities of placing Harry at #12 for several weeks prior to the start of term. I can see a scene where Harry is looking through some of Sirius's personal effects, probably with Lupin (maybe DD), asking questions, and the backstory begins....
EDIT: I do expect some response (protest) from Narcissa with Bella in the background.
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lobelia - Aug 26, 2004 9:07 am (#141 of 365)
There is a rumor that one student will switch houses. I have searched everywhere for a directly quoted interview of JKR and have found none. Some have speculated which student would switch Hogwarts Houses. If the rumor is something JKR really said, I believe she might of really meant that Harry will switch houses from #4 Privet Drive to #12 Grimmauld Place.
The last chapter of Ootp set the scene that the Order was becomming Harry's new family. I really like the idea that someone some 100 posts ago of Sirius writing his wishes down on some parchment and having Lupin being the one who is the executor of the will. The parchment has a charm which "insists" that his wishes are fulfilled. This might mean that it would have a formal probate. I can see Sirius writing it with Lupin one lonely night by the fire in #12 Grim place. In this letter, it bequeaths the house to the Order to get back at his mom with the expectation that they get Harry away from the Dursley's once the last year of protection is in place (which is the last summer in book 6). This would be to show Harry he understands being stuck somewhere you hate.
Kreacher is left in the house and each of the Order gets to boss him around and he is specifically told that he cannot leave the house. They of course treat him better than Sirius at the bequest of Dumbledore. Dobby asks for a job from Harry and Harry gives it to him with pay and benefits and Dobby bosses around Kreacher to get that house finally clean. Dobby having special house-elve magic can remove the heads, the portrait and the tapestry.
Finally, Sirius leaves a note to Harry about his past. With instructions on how to find out more information (perhaps that nobility book) about his family and where that motorcycle is located.
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shadowfax - Aug 26, 2004 11:50 pm (#142 of 365)
Sirius Black loved Harry like the son he never had ,plus he also saw his old buddy (James)in him. So logically we would assume that Black would leave the house and his wealth to him. That is if he had a will written stating so before his death. About the time of his death the OoTP was using the house as it's head quarters and DD had put a fidelues charm on the house so no one could find it. So even if his blood kin, like Bellartix or Narcissa M. would try to claim it ;they would not be able to find it because it was invisable.But I truely think Black woould leave it to the Order, under DD supervision.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Aug 31, 2004 9:21 am (#143 of 365)
I think it is going to be a fight between Narcissa Malfoy and Andromeda tonks. Since Bellatrix was convicted of using an unforgivable curse she would be out of the running for the inharitance. Also another thing that would scare people is the Weasleys inhariting it since they are related to the Black family through Arthur
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Steve Newton - Aug 31, 2004 9:32 am (#144 of 365)
Librarian
Kelly, you say "Since Bellatrix was convicted of using an unforgivable curse she would be out of the running for the inharitance."
I don't think conviction limits your ability to inherit, unless you kill the person leaving the legacy. At least in muggle law.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Aug 31, 2004 9:52 am (#145 of 365)
Wizarding Law Could be diffrent in the fact that a witch or a wizard can be convicted of kill people and still inherit property and assets(such as sirius Black inheriting 12 grimmauld place) but being convicted of an Unforgivable curse could strip a wizard or a witch of inheriting anything at all.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 31, 2004 2:44 pm (#146 of 365)
I'm not sure that Andromeda Tonks would get involved in a fight over the house, unless she, like her daughter, is involved with the Order. Having been removed from the family tapestry, she may want absolutely nothing to do with the Black family. Seems that even Sirius really didn't; he just took over the house because he inherited it and could offer it as headquarters for the Order. Maybe Nymphadora Tonks would, on behalf of the Order, Harry, or both, and would use her kinship to Sirius as leverage. I think the Weasleys are too distantly related to even be considered for the inheritance, and that, if Sirius had any say in the matter, he will have left it to Harry.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 16, 2004 12:37 pm (#147 of 365)
Whoever, inherits the house will have a lot of work to do because, that house holds many demons chief among them being Kreacher and that portrait of Mrs. Black. That portrait would drive me mad.
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Czarina II - Sep 17, 2004 10:41 am (#148 of 365)
Ah, tis nothing to get rid of that portrait! Sell it to a carnival funhouse!
Kreacher could be useful -- just seal his mouth shut. Perhaps convince him that he is too old and then he'll be more than happy to have his head mounted next to his dear old mum's.
Seriously, though, the order of inheritance in the wizarding world seems to mirror that of pre-industrial Europe (primogeniture) and nobility. The order of inheritance (as we know it) for 12 Grimmauld Place would be:
1. Bellatrix Lestrange
Hmm...wanted criminal. Well, that didn't stop Sirius.
2. children of Bellatrix
Dear, dear, I hope she doesn't have any!
3. Andromeda Tonks
Disowned, so cancel that. And besides, why would she want it?
4. Nymphadora Tonks (and any siblings)
Disowned too. She has a chance, though, because she was not directly removed from the tapestry. She just was never added to it.
5. Narcissa Malfoy
Quite likely, since she is the sister most in favour at the moment. She isn't a criminal and is a respectable witch -- not to mention a very powerful one.
6. Draco Malfoy
Probably his late grandparents' pride and joy, also the only male on the list, so very likely. Also the heir to the very powerful Malfoy family.
Of course, is Dumbledore still the secret-keeper? That would be most interesting. "Here, Mr Malfoy, these are your new housekeys. Oh, but you won't be able to find the house. Sorry."
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 17, 2004 4:49 pm (#149 of 365)
Czariza II, Arthur Weasley is also a candidate being a distant cousin. But, his candidacy as an heir might be affected by his distance in terms of blood.
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Paulus Maximus - Sep 17, 2004 5:00 pm (#150 of 365)
"I don't think conviction limits your ability to inherit, unless you kill the person leaving the legacy. At least in muggle law."
And that's exactly what Bella did, so Bella cannot inherit 12GP.
If she does, I will go berserk... The only way she can inherit 12GP is if she is cleared of the charge of killing Sirius.
Of course, there is a 10,000 galleon bounty on Sirius' head... I wonder what's going to happen to it? 10,000 galleons would be enough to buy 12GP...
...and if Bella gets the bounty...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, in-breeding itself is not bad (and does not cause retardation or mutations). What it does do is increase the chances of having the same traits. (In the case of the Royals and hemophilia, it increased the chances of a bad trait, but close marriages was not the cause. Does that make any sense?).
But I don't think JKR has a clue about genetics or cares, as far as the story goes, so I don't think it's going to be a factor.
But how closely related they are might be. Any of the purebloods we've seen could be a branch on that tree. Harry didn't look too close for us. :-) Phineas did call Sirius the "last of the Blacks" so there is no one to carry on the name, now.
I do think there have been some interesting suggestions on this thread, like Sirius transferring the house to DD for the order already, or Tonks being next in line. I'm not sure what to think.
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S.E. Jones - Aug 12, 2004 4:28 pm (#102 of 365)
Let it snow!
MrsGump: Does anyone else find it odd the Mrs. Black is shrieking "THE HOUSE OF MY FATHERS" when it's the noble house of Black? As in, her husband's family? Or is the Black family so in-breed that Black was her madian name too? First cousins?
I've actually thought about that. I think it's either that, as Gina pointed out, she considered herself a Black after she married Mr. Black, or they (the Blacks) were living in her family home. It's rather common in English history for nobles to keep their titles and lands but lose their family money. Maybe in this case they did sort of the opposite - they kept their standing (they're still purebloods) and their money but lost their land. In that case, Mr. Black may have inherited the Black family tapestry and silver but no house and so moved into her family's house when they married. Or, maybe Mr. Black was the younger brother (we know he had a brother because the Black sisters seem to be Sirius's first cousins). If that were the case, the elder brother would've gotten the house and Sirius dad may have moved into his wife's house upon their marriage. Both of the latter possibilities actually makes it the house of "her fathers" without there being any familiar connection between her and her husband.
P.S. In-breeding is bad, but only after a certain point. If you go within a certain degree of "closeness" you start repeating recessive, deletarious traits which can lead to mental retardation, mutations (most recessive traits are technically mutations), and other problems. That's why there are laws in the US preventing marriage of siblings and, at least in most states, first cousins. (Sorry, just the geneticist in me coming out.)
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 13, 2004 5:19 am (#103 of 365)
A similar law exists here in the UK. It also reaches to uncles and aunts.
I like the point of Sirius's animage form being a dog as often the problem with pedegree dogs is that they have been so in bred. And as Sirius talked about all pure bloods being related, to prevent pollution of the stock, the idea of Mrs Black marrying a relation makes sense. But what does this mean to the inheritance issue?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 13, 2004 10:19 am (#104 of 365)
Phelim McIntyre, I believe it means that the Lestrange, Tonks, and Malfoy may have a claim to number 12 GP> However, it is my understanding that it was not always the case that an inheritance could not be inherited by a daughter or other female relation especially if there were any son or other close male relation under the doctrine of primogeniture.
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Gemini Wolfie - Aug 13, 2004 8:14 pm (#105 of 365)
New to the thread. It seems Gringotts is outside of Ministry control so accounts are never frozen? You know when Mrs. Weasley got school supplies for Harry, do we assume that Harry had written her an authorization to withdraw money from his account?
My English history isn't really that good, but since Pureblood families mimic families of old age, is it possible that Sirius' mother had no power to disown Sirius? If Sirius' father did not leave a will that specifically passed the Black estate and all its possessions to his wife, that would have made Sirius the rightful owner all along and not Mrs. Black. Which means that if Sirius had indeed made a will, all other relatives of Blacks would have no legal claim on Blacks' estate. We also know that Kreacher is not allowed to leave the house without permission so we can be sure he'll be staying at Grimmauld.
I also suspect that wills that are countersigned by a certain number of wizards will be binding and perhaps guardianship works in a similar fashion.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 14, 2004 11:04 pm (#106 of 365)
Who's going to inherit? I'm convinced it will be Harry. Sirius will have made a will, or the wizarding equivalent of one, leaving everything to Harry, the closest thing to family that he had. Who else would he have wanted to leave it to?
Or else he made a will before Voldemort's attack and his own arrest and never got a chance to update it--and he left everything to Lily and James. Young as he was, he'd have been seeing people his age dying right and left, and that might've prompted him to make one. True, Sirius hadn't inherited 12 Grimmauld Place yet--but his will might've read something like, "I leave all of my property and assets, whatever they may be, to Lily and James Potter." Either way, Harry inherits.
If Sirius did update his will, I can see him attaching a condition to it: that Harry will own the house, but he's to let the Order of the Phoenix continue using it.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Narcissa Malfoy tries to contest it in some way.
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Madame Librarian - Aug 15, 2004 9:43 am (#107 of 365)
M. Dragon, Narcissa may indeed be strapped for funds with husband Lucius in Azkaban. 12 GP and its attendant riches may be an important source of money for her. Of course, we know very little of how these things work in the WW, but if they are similar to some archaic laws, Lucius may be the one and only one who can control the Malfoy estate and release funds from Gringotts. While he's incarcerated (and it appears most of think that's only a temporary condition), Narcissa and snotty Draco may be poor as paupers. What an interesting scene that would be, with Narcissa and Draco showing up at the solicitor's office when the will reading takes place.
Ciao. Barb
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 16, 2004 10:39 am (#108 of 365)
Not only will Narcissa be strapped for funds--but what if there's something at 12 Grimmauld Place that she doesn't want Harry to get his hands on--or she believes it's there?
I'm thinking of another discussion I've read--not sure whether it was on this forum or somewhere else--where someone thought the Hand of Glory that Lucius had in CoS, that Harry saw when he got into the shop in Knockturn Alley by mistake, was the clue in Book 2 that would lead to the half blood prince. They pointed out that the Knockturn Alley scene was included in the movie, when it's insignificant enough to the plot to have been left out, and they suggested that it was included because JK said it would be important later. And I think the half blood prince will be connected with something of Sirius's that Harry will find. Perhaps something that belonged to one of Sirius's parents, and that Sirius himself might not even have known about.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 16, 2004 3:41 pm (#109 of 365)
I have a question. Does the Wizarding World operate on a doctrine of strict primogeniture?
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 16, 2004 5:11 pm (#110 of 365)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
...primogeniture - Right of inheritance belongs exclusively to the eldest son. Fair question! To answer it, IMO, no, we still don't know enough about how the "wizarding world" views some things we mere Muggles don't understand. "operate on a doctrine of strict primogeniture?" I don't think so, some things parallel and some do not. We still have two more books to go until we see JKR's true vision of the wizarding world.
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 17, 2004 9:58 pm (#111 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Can you see Narcissa and Harry squaring off at the will reading. Harry with his(friends)from the order and Narcissa with her(friends) the DE's.
Mikie
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Eponine - Aug 17, 2004 10:03 pm (#112 of 365)
On Mugglenet there is a report from a girl who was at the Edinburgh reading. She was able to ask JKR a couple of questions while she was getting her book signed. One of the questions she asked was whether we would find out what happens to Kreacher and 12 Grimmauld Place, she said JKR dodged the question but did say we would find out very early on what happens, right at the beginning of the book. So that could mean there will be a will reading or the wizarding equivalent of such a thing.
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Czarina II - Aug 17, 2004 10:21 pm (#113 of 365)
Interesting, Eponine. But wouldn't such a scene bog down the rest of the story? Look how long it took for Harry to get to Hogwarts at the beginning of OoP. Personally, I'd like to see such a scene because it would be a chance for us to see characters we don't normally. I love characterization. But realistically, a will-reading would be quite cumbersome unless it was revealed more in exposition than straight narration.
TwinklingBlueEyes is right that we have no idea how the wizarding equivalent of primogeniture works. In the case of wizarding folk, witches are no less powerful than wizards. The main reason that women have been subjugated in the muggle world is because of perceived physical strength. This is not so much of an issue with wizards, who can all perform equal magic. At least, magical ability has nothing to do with gender. Two of the Founders were female (in 1000, the idea of women founding a school like Hogwarts would have been thought ludicrous), by the late Middle Ages the Minister for Magic is a witch, an all-female Quidditch team exists that has done battle with the rest of the league and won several times for the past couple centuries. Thus, I fail to see why there would be such a thing as primogeniture. I think inheritance might very well go to the eldest child regardless of gender. Since Sirius inherited 12GP even though he was in prison, I think it is fair to say that he inherited from his father (since his younger brother was dead, he must have inherited it by default), who inherited from his father, etc. Bellatrix's father must be younger than Sirius's father then. Do we even know for sure if she and her sisters are descended from Sirius's uncle or his aunt? That is, would Mr Black's sibling be a brother (Mr Younger Black) or a sister (Miss Black ?)?
Hey -- maybe the Weasleys will inherit 12GP! :-) Long shot, I know, but stranger things have happened.
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Eponine - Aug 18, 2004 6:48 am (#114 of 365)
Hmmm...maybe we'll find out indirectly, like through a letter from Dumbledore or something.
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Gina R Snape - Aug 18, 2004 7:09 am (#115 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Edited by S.E. Jones Aug 18, 2004 11:47 pm
Y'know, a will reading and emergency Order meeting could be the reason Harry spends so little time at the Dursley's. Maybe the book will open up at 4 Privet Drive, then a few pages in Harry is whisked away for the will reading and the book takes off from there...
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 18, 2004 11:16 am (#116 of 365)
"Do we even know for sure if she and her sisters are descended from Sirius's uncle or his aunt?"- Czarina II
Definitely his uncle. In the wizarding world, children have their fathers' last names, and wives take their husbands' (at least, we haven't yet met a witch who's married and has kept her own name). Since Narcissa's maiden name was Black, her father was a Black.
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Padfoot - Aug 18, 2004 11:54 am (#117 of 365)
If Sirius did update his will, I can see him attaching a condition to it: that Harry will own the house, but he's to let the Order of the Phoenix continue using it. -Maddest Dragon
My only problem with this is that the Order is supposed to be secret. So informing the Ministry (or whoever) of the secret location of headquarters isn't such a good idea.
I do think the beginning of HbP will either be a funeral ceremony for Sirius or a reading of his will. If there was a will written, Harry will get the house.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 18, 2004 9:42 pm (#118 of 365)
Good point, Padfoot. I was about to say that the Ministry wouldn't necessarily know about Sirius's will--perhaps wizarding wills are really spells cast in the presence of witnesses, who then carry the magic with them (like Secret Keepers) or seal it in a safe place, like the prophecies in the Ministry of Magic. In that case, members of the Order could have served as Sirius's witnesses without betraying his whereabouts or the Order's existence. The problem with that, though, is that I like the idea of Narcissa barging in and causing trouble a little too much. For that to happen, someone outside the Order would have to find out somehow, and it could easily get back to the Ministry of Magic.
Then again, the Ministry still believes Sirius is a criminal, and still doesn't, to our knowledge, know that he's dead. Just the fact that the people in the Order knew where Sirius was and didn't turn him in could get them in major trouble, even if the Ministry doesn't find out about their secret society.
Hmmm.... perhaps it goes like this:
-Members of the Order witnessed Sirius's will, which leaves everything to Harry, provided that he let the house remain their headquarters;
-Kreacher spies on the reading of the will and goes and tells Narcissa;
-Narcissa barges in and tries to contest it, but she has a good reason not to go to the Ministry. Perhaps she would get in serious trouble herself if she did, for reasons I can't predict. Perhaps Fred and George's extendable ears or other spy tricks have picked up something they can blackmail her on.
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 19, 2004 4:12 am (#119 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Sirius died in the battle. Only participants in the battle know this. Would the ministry believe that Sirius was with the DE's rather than with the members of the Order? Makes sense and saves a little face.
You couldn't expect the DE's taken in the MOM battle to be very forthcoming about Sirius's participation. Self Incrimination.
You couldn't expect the members of the Order to admit this and implicate themselves in hiding a criminal from the ministry. Remember there is still no proof that Wormtail is actually alive and that Sirius didn't actually commit the crimes of which he was accused.
Therefore no one will inherit 12 Grimmauld Place at this time. It will exist in limbo as it did before the Order took it over as their headquarters. And considering the Narcissa, Kreacher connection the Order may well want to reconsider it's use any further.
Since Sirius's death who will be Kreacher's master?
Mikie
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Steve Newton - Aug 19, 2004 6:28 am (#120 of 365)
Librarian
Maddest,
If Harry does inherit GP then, as I understand it, Kreacher would then be his house elf and could not go to Narcissa unless Harry told him to.
3948 may have it right. Unless the MOM can tell if you are alive or not, which I doubt, than no one may believe or no one may say that Sirius is dead.
I have no idea what this would mean to Kreacher. When Winky was freed she still seemed very attached to Mr. Crouch. I would guess that Kreacher would hang around taking orders from a painting.
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Quibbler Editor In Chief - Aug 19, 2004 12:41 pm (#121 of 365)
Maybe Sirius wouldn't have to give the house to "The Order of the Phoenix" in his will. He could give it to his friend from school, Lupin (until Harry is ready for it), who would then be able to chose to use it for the Order of the Phoenix without the MOM or whoever knowing about the Order.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 19, 2004 4:38 pm (#122 of 365)
Steve, you bring up a good point. Would Kreacher become Harry's house elf? Do house elves go with the property or with the family? If it's the family, Harry isn't a Black, isn't even a blood relation. Narcissa, on the other hand, is a member of the family, the only one Kreacher could go to (Andromeda being disowned and Bellatrix on the lam).
Even if Kreacher does become Harry's, a house elf with a strong enough motivation can leave the house, like Dobby did in CoS. Kreacher might be so insulted at the thought of belonging to a half-blood traitor that it would be worth any amount of self punishment to go to Narcissa.
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DJ Evans - Aug 19, 2004 7:16 pm (#123 of 365)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Maybe I've totally forgotten a passage that would disclaim this -- that or this has already been brought up maybe? But is there any chance that Sirius could have already given #12GP to the OotP? I know Kreacher is still following Sirius' orders, so that would leave you to believe the house still belonged to Sirius. But maybe Kreacher's loyalties (what little there are) belong to Sirius/The Black Family and not the house itself? I know, I know, I'm way off base here, right? Maybe someone could point me in the right direction though? Thanks!!!
Later, Deb
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mike miller - Aug 20, 2004 8:37 am (#124 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
As I've stated before, I think Harry will inherit #12. Kreacher is definately a "loose end". The changing nature of VWII since Voldemort has made himself known will change the value of what Kreacher knows and doesn't know. I'm not sure how JKR will treat this "loose end". I think both sides know who's on the other side, so that information is not valuable. Maybe Harry will banish Kreacher from #12 and send him to Nacissa. I don't think that would seriously compromise the Order.
The opportunity to provide us with backstory is too great for JKR to not have Harry inherit #12. Harry could be looking through some of Sirius's effects with say Remus or DD and now we find out what happened at Godric's Hollow or more about James's family or the dynamics of the break-up of the Marauders or ...(insert missing piece of information)...
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Fawkes Egg - Aug 22, 2004 4:37 am (#125 of 365)
Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
I don't think Sirius gave up ownership to the Order, but he may have bequeathed it to Lupin and/or Harry as a way of making sure the Order was still able to use it when he died. Remember when Snape shows up to arrange Occlumency lessons with Harry and starts giving Harry orders, Sirius says:
"I'd appreciate it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. You see, it's my house."
That may not be an exact quote but I don't have my books to hand.
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DJ Evans - Aug 22, 2004 4:23 pm (#126 of 365)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
I had totally forgotten that bit (about Snape/Sirius' conversation)!!! Thanks for reminding me Fawkes! Well, there went that idea!
Later, Deb
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Gina R Snape - Aug 22, 2004 5:46 pm (#127 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I wonder if Harry inheriting 12GP will have an effect on his protection at Privet Drive. Could he still call Privet Drive his home if he owned a house? Or is it just a matter of being welcomed there?
If not, then Dumbledore may have warned Sirius about this, and had the house willed to him (DD) instead.
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mike miller - Aug 22, 2004 6:27 pm (#128 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Gina - You ask a good question regarding Harry's protection at #4. If reamining at #4 until his birthday is a critical element of maintaining the protection, I think Harry will be losing his protection. I've posted several ideas related to this on the "Shortest Stay Ever" thread (#223, #233 and #242) as well as this thread.
I think we will see Harry giving up his protection, with the approval (perhaps insistance from DD), in favor of more important things. Harry still has a lot to learn; and, so do we readers. Harry inheritring #12 from Sirius just creates too many opportunities for JKR to pass it up.
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Gina R Snape - Aug 22, 2004 8:27 pm (#129 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I'm not sure Mike. I think that protection might be a crucial element to the plot yet.
12GP does create many opportunities for JKR. I'm glad she said this topic will be dealt with early in the book. I have a feeling it will be setting up the story further, not a 'get it out of the way' logistic.
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mike miller - Aug 23, 2004 3:31 pm (#130 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Gina - Infortunately, we just have to wait and see!!!
I've given the nature of Harry's protection some thought and I think being with the Dursley's on his birthday (all except his first so far) and receiving a Christmas gift from they is critical to maintaining the protection. Why esle would someone give a toothpick as a gift? If this stay at #4 is to be the shortest yet, he has to leave before his birthday. The protection was set up when Harry was a baby and could not protect himself along with the fact that he would be in the Muggle world.
The reading of the will creates the perfect opportunity and I honestly believe that Harry may not be back to #4 until the conflictg with Voldemort is finished. There are more important things for Harry to be doing than making sure he has a safe refuge to return to.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 23, 2004 4:43 pm (#131 of 365)
Perhaps Harry has to either be with the Dursleys on his birthday and Christmas or receive a gift from them. He was with them on his eleventh birthday, just not for long. They've ignored the rest of his birthdays, but he was with them, so they could do that without violating the protection. However, they still have to let him call their house home, and they've been sending him a gift every Christmas, even if it was really no gift at all. (However, I don't remember a Dursley gift being mentioned in GoF or OotP.)
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S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 4:50 pm (#132 of 365)
Let it snow!
I still think his protection will be in place. He's always left some time after his birthday, so leaving on his birthday (I think he only has to be in Petunia's presence when the clock strikes 12:00am July 31) or the day after will not disrupt the protection, but still make it his shortest stay (i.e. he doesn't have to leave before his birthday, just before the usual three days go by).
Here's what we've seen thus far:
In PS, he has a birthday, Hagrid shows up at midnight, the next day (still July 31) he takes Harry away from the Dursleys to go to Diagon Alley, Harry is then returned to Privet Drive for a month before he heads off to school. [Note: He returned after leaving with Hagrid in PS, so the length of his stay is extended past his birthday. You may also want to note: Hagrid didn't knock until the clock struck 12:00, exactly.]
In CoS, he has a birthday, Dobby shows up, and then Harry is locked in his room for three days before the Weasleys show up to get him.
In PoA, he has a birthday, Marge shows up, and then he runs away after, I think, three days to a week (Vernon says she'll be there for a week, but the text says Harry got through the next three days.... At last, at long last, the final evening of Marge's stay arrived.).
In GoF, the story starts up in August (He looked hopelessly around his room again, and his eye paused on the birthday cards his two best friends had sent him at the end of July.), so after his birthday. He leaves about a day after (Saturday to Sunday).
In OotP, the story starts up in August again (Hermione and Ron had already sent him birthday cards), then three days later he leaves with the Advanced Guard.
As to what Grimmauld Place would do to his protection, Petunia still dwells at Privet Drive so that has to be taken into consideration. Her dwelling there and still making him part of her family (whether reluctantly or not) I'd think would continue the protection.....
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Madame Librarian - Aug 23, 2004 6:10 pm (#133 of 365)
I just had a grim thought. Given that the summer will be Harry's shortest stay at Privet, and that JKR confirmed an early handling of something to do with 12 GP, plus that ominous tone she uses when saying that she's very sorry she's going to put Harry through some horrible times, might it mean that a huge conflict takes place at 12 GP? The protections fail for some reason (Kreacher, a spy, whatever), the Order is under attack, HRH manage to get there to help. Too late! It's a rout, the DEs have captured the property. Or, worse--it's destroyed. Yikes!
Ciao. Barb
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S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 7:02 pm (#134 of 365)
Let it snow!
I doubt Dumbledore would allow Harry to come help if HQ was under attack. In fact, he'd probably simply have the people inside Apparate out (if possible), send word (in whatever manner Order members send messages) that no-one else was to go there since security had been breached, would send a guard to protect Harry where he is the safest (Privet Drive), and would then go himself with some reinforcements to help get whoever he can out of the besieged HQ. The house isn't what's important; it's the people who might be inside it.....
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mike miller - Aug 23, 2004 7:06 pm (#135 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
JKR has stated recently that we will see very little of the Dursley's (maybe it was just Dudley) from here on out. I think Harry has out grown his need for sanctuary at #4. Harry has more important things to do (Occulumency, advanced DADA, inheriting #12) more important places to go (Godric's Hollow). My prediction is that Harry will leave #4 before his birthday, nullifying the protection charms and will only return to confront Aunt Petunia (she knows more than we know) about his parents.
The nature of the Order will probably change now that Voldemort is out in the open. Unless Snape shows his true colors to be that of Voldemort, I think Harry will as safe as he can be at #12. The combination of DD's Fidelius Charm and Sirius's father's magic, I don't think even Voldemort can find the place.
JKR is coming into the stretch run with the story and she has to move quickly. She has stated that when she finishes the story there will be no unanswered questions. Right now, I think we all have lots of questions, so JKR has a lot of story to fill in. The last two books are likely to be very fast paced. Harry inheriting #12 makes it possible to advance the story on multiple fronts.
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 23, 2004 7:55 pm (#136 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I still say Harry cannot inherit #12 until there is a confirmation that Sirius died in the MOM battle. How is that going to happen?
I agree that Harry will eventually have #12 as a home and probably will have Dobby as his house elf. Kreacher being dispatched or other wise being removed from the scene. I also agree with you that #12 should still be safe depending on what has become of Kreacher.
But I do not see Harry inheriting #12 in HbP but in Book 7.
Mikie
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 23, 2004 8:06 pm (#137 of 365)
I doubt Dumbledore would allow Harry to come help if HQ was under attack. - S.E. Jones
I think Dumbledore's likely to have stopped being so protective of Harry, because at the end of OotP he saw what a mistake that was. Unlike mike miller, I'm not sure that Harry's outgrown his need for sanctuary at #4, but there might be a change in circumstances that makes it no longer feasible.
MickeyCee, I like your idea that Harry will inherit #12 in Book 7. Hadn't thought of that possibility. But I still think that Sirius intended to leave it to Harry, and that Harry will learn about that intention early on in Book 6. Number 12 might not fully become his until Book 7 because of some flies in the ointment--perhaps trouble caused by Narcissa, or some kind of legal (WW legal) wrangling over whether Harry can really inherit or not. Or perhaps, simply because he's underage, a guardian will be appointed until he turns 17.
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S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 8:08 pm (#138 of 365)
Let it snow!
Mike Miller: JKR has stated recently that we will see very little of the Dursley's (maybe it was just Dudley) from here on out.
Where was this? In her Edinburgh question and answer, she says "The next book, Half Blood Prince, is the least that you see of the Dursleys. You see them quite briefly. You see them a bit more in the final book, but you don’t get a lot of Dudley in book six - very few lines." I took from that that we will see little of them in HBP and then the usual mention of them in Book 7 (face it, we don't really see them a great deal anyway).
Edit:
Maddest Dragon: I think Dumbledore's likely to have stopped being so protective of Harry, because at the end of OotP he saw what a mistake that was.
I think there's a difference between being overprotective (not telling Harry things he thinks will hurt him, shielding him from the truth, etc.) and being physically protective of his person (he's the key to it all, why risk him getting hurt).
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 23, 2004 10:35 pm (#139 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I believe the only way the loose ends can be finalized is by the capture or the death and body of Pettigrew. And I don't expect that until late in book 7. By then I expect any complaints from the Malfoys or Bella will have been silenced permanently.
Mikie
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mike miller - Aug 24, 2004 4:02 am (#140 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Sarah - You've got it! That was the comment I was referring to. I think we will see more of the Dursley's in book 7 as Harry will need to question Petunia about his mother.
Is Harry ready to face his destiny? No. My thoughts about giving up the protection at #4 are more related to the activities that must be completed to maintain the protection ("home" with family on his birthday) and other events that will prevent it (ready of the will). I may be becoming narrow minded here, but I see so many opportunities of placing Harry at #12 for several weeks prior to the start of term. I can see a scene where Harry is looking through some of Sirius's personal effects, probably with Lupin (maybe DD), asking questions, and the backstory begins....
EDIT: I do expect some response (protest) from Narcissa with Bella in the background.
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lobelia - Aug 26, 2004 9:07 am (#141 of 365)
There is a rumor that one student will switch houses. I have searched everywhere for a directly quoted interview of JKR and have found none. Some have speculated which student would switch Hogwarts Houses. If the rumor is something JKR really said, I believe she might of really meant that Harry will switch houses from #4 Privet Drive to #12 Grimmauld Place.
The last chapter of Ootp set the scene that the Order was becomming Harry's new family. I really like the idea that someone some 100 posts ago of Sirius writing his wishes down on some parchment and having Lupin being the one who is the executor of the will. The parchment has a charm which "insists" that his wishes are fulfilled. This might mean that it would have a formal probate. I can see Sirius writing it with Lupin one lonely night by the fire in #12 Grim place. In this letter, it bequeaths the house to the Order to get back at his mom with the expectation that they get Harry away from the Dursley's once the last year of protection is in place (which is the last summer in book 6). This would be to show Harry he understands being stuck somewhere you hate.
Kreacher is left in the house and each of the Order gets to boss him around and he is specifically told that he cannot leave the house. They of course treat him better than Sirius at the bequest of Dumbledore. Dobby asks for a job from Harry and Harry gives it to him with pay and benefits and Dobby bosses around Kreacher to get that house finally clean. Dobby having special house-elve magic can remove the heads, the portrait and the tapestry.
Finally, Sirius leaves a note to Harry about his past. With instructions on how to find out more information (perhaps that nobility book) about his family and where that motorcycle is located.
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shadowfax - Aug 26, 2004 11:50 pm (#142 of 365)
Sirius Black loved Harry like the son he never had ,plus he also saw his old buddy (James)in him. So logically we would assume that Black would leave the house and his wealth to him. That is if he had a will written stating so before his death. About the time of his death the OoTP was using the house as it's head quarters and DD had put a fidelues charm on the house so no one could find it. So even if his blood kin, like Bellartix or Narcissa M. would try to claim it ;they would not be able to find it because it was invisable.But I truely think Black woould leave it to the Order, under DD supervision.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Aug 31, 2004 9:21 am (#143 of 365)
I think it is going to be a fight between Narcissa Malfoy and Andromeda tonks. Since Bellatrix was convicted of using an unforgivable curse she would be out of the running for the inharitance. Also another thing that would scare people is the Weasleys inhariting it since they are related to the Black family through Arthur
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Steve Newton - Aug 31, 2004 9:32 am (#144 of 365)
Librarian
Kelly, you say "Since Bellatrix was convicted of using an unforgivable curse she would be out of the running for the inharitance."
I don't think conviction limits your ability to inherit, unless you kill the person leaving the legacy. At least in muggle law.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Aug 31, 2004 9:52 am (#145 of 365)
Wizarding Law Could be diffrent in the fact that a witch or a wizard can be convicted of kill people and still inherit property and assets(such as sirius Black inheriting 12 grimmauld place) but being convicted of an Unforgivable curse could strip a wizard or a witch of inheriting anything at all.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 31, 2004 2:44 pm (#146 of 365)
I'm not sure that Andromeda Tonks would get involved in a fight over the house, unless she, like her daughter, is involved with the Order. Having been removed from the family tapestry, she may want absolutely nothing to do with the Black family. Seems that even Sirius really didn't; he just took over the house because he inherited it and could offer it as headquarters for the Order. Maybe Nymphadora Tonks would, on behalf of the Order, Harry, or both, and would use her kinship to Sirius as leverage. I think the Weasleys are too distantly related to even be considered for the inheritance, and that, if Sirius had any say in the matter, he will have left it to Harry.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 16, 2004 12:37 pm (#147 of 365)
Whoever, inherits the house will have a lot of work to do because, that house holds many demons chief among them being Kreacher and that portrait of Mrs. Black. That portrait would drive me mad.
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Czarina II - Sep 17, 2004 10:41 am (#148 of 365)
Ah, tis nothing to get rid of that portrait! Sell it to a carnival funhouse!
Kreacher could be useful -- just seal his mouth shut. Perhaps convince him that he is too old and then he'll be more than happy to have his head mounted next to his dear old mum's.
Seriously, though, the order of inheritance in the wizarding world seems to mirror that of pre-industrial Europe (primogeniture) and nobility. The order of inheritance (as we know it) for 12 Grimmauld Place would be:
1. Bellatrix Lestrange
Hmm...wanted criminal. Well, that didn't stop Sirius.
2. children of Bellatrix
Dear, dear, I hope she doesn't have any!
3. Andromeda Tonks
Disowned, so cancel that. And besides, why would she want it?
4. Nymphadora Tonks (and any siblings)
Disowned too. She has a chance, though, because she was not directly removed from the tapestry. She just was never added to it.
5. Narcissa Malfoy
Quite likely, since she is the sister most in favour at the moment. She isn't a criminal and is a respectable witch -- not to mention a very powerful one.
6. Draco Malfoy
Probably his late grandparents' pride and joy, also the only male on the list, so very likely. Also the heir to the very powerful Malfoy family.
Of course, is Dumbledore still the secret-keeper? That would be most interesting. "Here, Mr Malfoy, these are your new housekeys. Oh, but you won't be able to find the house. Sorry."
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 17, 2004 4:49 pm (#149 of 365)
Czariza II, Arthur Weasley is also a candidate being a distant cousin. But, his candidacy as an heir might be affected by his distance in terms of blood.
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Paulus Maximus - Sep 17, 2004 5:00 pm (#150 of 365)
"I don't think conviction limits your ability to inherit, unless you kill the person leaving the legacy. At least in muggle law."
And that's exactly what Bella did, so Bella cannot inherit 12GP.
If she does, I will go berserk... The only way she can inherit 12GP is if she is cleared of the charge of killing Sirius.
Of course, there is a 10,000 galleon bounty on Sirius' head... I wonder what's going to happen to it? 10,000 galleons would be enough to buy 12GP...
...and if Bella gets the bounty...
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Who's Going to Inherit 12 Grimmauld Place (Post 151 to 200)
Elanor Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:50 am
Good Evans - Sep 20, 2004 11:40 am (#151 of 365)
Practically perfect in every way
Edited by Sep 20, 2004 11:42 am
I'm going to harp back to earlier posts in ths discussion.... Dumbledore would know that any one of the order were in danger. As Kreacher clearly cannot be turned free I wonder if he had Sirius make a will and entail the family elf to someone in the order, to keep the secrets. It would be great if the elf were entialed to the Weasleys, Ron said back in CoS that Molly would love one to help with the ironing (I'm not sure that Molly would want kreacher but hey.....). And a bit more pointedly what about buckbeak? beaky is a fugitive and as such needs to be looked after (well fed dead ferrets, *waves to Draco*, anyway). Can an elf be entailed? I like the idea about them being tied to the house but I suspect it is the family. As Sirius' godson with a legal document(will) I wonder if this would be good enough to tie kreacher in a bit longer, and tie him to Harry?
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Dr Filibuster - Sep 20, 2004 12:05 pm (#152 of 365)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Good heavens! Hermione would go ballistic.
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Good Evans - Sep 20, 2004 12:36 pm (#153 of 365)
Practically perfect in every way
Absolutely! - just imagine the scene between harry and hermione ... bliss!
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timrew - Sep 20, 2004 4:10 pm (#154 of 365)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Buckbeak could be given back to Hagrid. With the Malfoys discredited, who would want it killed now? No-One.
In fact, Buckbeak could feature in a future book, eating Malfoy (the ferret boy), when he is in his ferret form. A fitting end for a bully - hippogriff fodder.
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Steve Newton - Sep 20, 2004 7:13 pm (#155 of 365)
Librarian
Well, in muggle terms the MOM wants Buckbeak dead. He was convicted and sentenced. That may now be overturned but the sentence should still stand.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 20, 2004 9:36 pm (#156 of 365)
Steve, that raisesthe following question: Is possible to distinguish one hippogriff from another?
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Detail Seeker - Sep 20, 2004 11:50 pm (#157 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Who would realize, that Buckbeak returned to the Forbidden forest ?
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Steve Newton - Sep 21, 2004 7:13 am (#158 of 365)
Librarian
Good questions. Anyone have any answers?
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Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 21, 2004 7:37 am (#159 of 365)
Hagrid, the centaurs and arthurs old car
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timrew - Sep 21, 2004 2:53 pm (#160 of 365)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
You put Hagrid, The Centaurs and Arthurs Old Car in a line-up with Buckbeak, and the MOM will pick out the Hippogriff every time!
But four Hippogriffs in a line-up.........?
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 21, 2004 4:51 pm (#161 of 365)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Hmm, they do come in different colors like horses, don't they?
Considering the laws that Dumbledore has already laid down to Fudge after the duel at the MOM, I see no reason for him not to have Fudge recend the order to kill Buckbeak. After all, I don't expect him to let Buckbeak stay at #12 with only Kreacher to tend to and feed him. Buckbeak only attacked after Draco insulted him, and we know Dumbledore gave him a second chance with the time-turner.
Now, what thread am I on? Oh yeah! I think Harry will wind up with #12, but will not want the house that Sirius hated so much, even if they can manage to peel Mrs Black off the wall! I do believe it will be continued to be used by the Order though.
...toddles away mumbling to self...how does one hide a hippogriff?
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TomProffitt - Sep 21, 2004 9:24 pm (#162 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
Every time, Tim? I only give them four out of five.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 22, 2004 8:45 am (#163 of 365)
I was making a comment about who would know if buckbeak has returned to the forbidden forest. I also don't think any ministry wizards would want to tread into the forbidden forest after Umbridge informs the ministry about all of the dangerous half breeds in the forest
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Good Evans - Sep 22, 2004 9:09 am (#164 of 365)
Practically perfect in every way
Edited by Sep 22, 2004 9:10 am
good point Kelly - but would beaky want to return to the wild after having spent a whole year in a bedroom of his own??? with food on tap? he he Tim, I have a lovely mental image of the line up and Malfoy with his face screwed up walking up and down the line.
I dont think they could give him to Hagrid as I dont think he could keep it quiet, but seriously he could return to the forest for as you say, who's gonna know any different.
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timrew - Sep 22, 2004 2:23 pm (#165 of 365)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
LOL! You're right, Tom. The MOM would probably set up a committee to try and decide which one in the line-up was the hippogriff.
Millions of galleons would be spent on an enquiry, and at the end of twelve months, they would pick Arthur's car.
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Phoenix song - Sep 22, 2004 8:25 pm (#166 of 365)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
You're forgetting to add an extra year so that a specially selected "panel" of experts including: psychologists; sociologists; economists; demographists; statisticians; dieticians; environmentalists; laboratory scientific experts; and various assorted politicos can study the affects that living in the forest has had upon those "creatures" within the line-up.
Then, and only then, can they reach an informed, costly decision as to whether Buckbeak the Hippogriff, escaped convicted felon, will be allowed to continue to live at 12 Grimmauld Place. {And then they'll still probably choose the car!}
Barbie
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Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 22, 2004 8:41 pm (#167 of 365)
$10 says that either Buckbeak or Lupin will inharit 12 grimmauld place just to drive Kreacher Crazy
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TomProffitt - Sep 22, 2004 9:00 pm (#168 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
"No, no, Chairman Geriatricus, that's your Assistant, she's not in the line up and shouldn't be considered as a possible Hippogriff."
"Don't contradict me, Weatherby!"
"Sorry, sir."
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Steve Newton - Sep 23, 2004 7:01 am (#169 of 365)
Librarian
As far as I can tell Buckbeak is not an intelligent creature. I don't see how he could inherit. I know, some crazy people do leave property to pets but there is usually a caretaker. Also, I don't think that Sirius was crazy, at least not in this way.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 23, 2004 9:59 am (#170 of 365)
it would be funny if Sirius left his entire estate except for all of the clothing to Kreacher.
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Solitaire - Oct 3, 2004 10:52 am (#171 of 365)
Kelly, below is my response to your last post on the DADA teacher thread. After posting it, I felt it belonged over here and moved it. --Solitaire
Kelly, I am not sure how the laws of inheritance operate these days, but in the past, there were often some bizarre twists in wills that determined how property was bequeathed. In a lot of ways, the Wizarding World seems to operate according to some rather archaic laws. I would not be surprised if property and inheritance laws were equally archaic.
It is entirely possible that there could have been a clause in his parents' will allowing Sirius the use of 12GP for his lifetime, but prohibiting him from leaving the house to anyone but blood relatives. In fact, I would be rather surprised if there was NOT such a clause, given the Blacks' hatred of anyone who was not pure-blood.
Sirius's parents' will(s) might have determined the line through which the house had to pass upon his death. I suppose we shall have to wait for book 6 to see whether or not Sirius left a will and whether he had the right to dispose of family property as he saw fit.
Given the nasty, vindictive nature of Mrs. Black, I don't think it is safe to assume that they would have done anything that allowed Sirius to act according to his wishes ... at least, not on purpose. In fact, I think it is a lot safer to assume she would try even after her death to prevent him from doing anything that would give him pleasure or a sense of satisfaction. Of course, that's just my take on things.
Solitaire
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therealscabbers - Oct 7, 2004 9:13 am (#172 of 365)
Petra t
Ok just finished reading all of the posts on this thread and have a couple of points - firstly right back at the beginning there was the assumption made that DD or Pet might be Harry's other Godparents, well JKR has said now that this is not so as it was a rushed christening due to the need to go into hiding so only Sirius was made a God parent and also a guardian to Harry, but of course when he was orphaned it was not possible for him to live with Sirius as he was in azkaban, so off to the nearest living relative which I think is normal practice here in the UK.
As for making a Will, I bought a house a couple of years ago, when I was 26yrs old and was informed that I should make a will so the house would go to whoever I wanted it to go to - so it makes sense that anyone who has a house should/ would be advised to make a will. Add to that the fact that all his mates were getting killed or tortured into insanity around him it also makes sense he would write a will.
So I am sure he did make a will and that Harry will be his beneficiary. Now as far as I am aware in the UK the make of the will can state at what age a child should get access to inheritance, if provision is not made then I am not sure what age the child gets the money, probably down to whoever has custody of him until he is 18.
As for Harry leaving the Dursleys, well in the UK you can leave home at 16 (as someone else mentioned) so from his 16th Birthday on the 31st July book 6 he can legally leave home and move into any place he wants to by muggle law. But of course for Harry there is more at stake, but as has also been mentioned he has basically got to the point now he knows about the prophecy and LV's return that he knows he is the only one who can stop the destruction of the world and will therefore decide for himself wether he stays at the Dursleys after his 16th - but until then he will still legally reside there anyway as they are his guardians.
Ok that's my 2 knuts
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veraco - Oct 18, 2004 8:19 am (#173 of 365)
therealscabbers Just to add a comment to your post, which I found very plausible.
"So I am sure he did make a will and that Harry will be his beneficiary. Now as far as I am aware in the UK the make of the will can state at what age a child should get access to inheritance, if provision is not made then I am not sure what age the child gets the money, probably down to whoever has custody of him until he is 18"
Harry's parents left him a small fortune in gold and Harry can access to that money since he was 11, and I can't seem to remember any kind of guardian to control that money or how Harry decide to spent it. There was just the key to the vault and that was it, which was kept from him until he knew he was a wizard. So maybe the laws in the wizarding world are not so similar to ours in that case or the custody of that money was given to someone who feels Harry is capable of handle it. Dumbledore perhaps since, if I'm not mistaken, he was the one who send the key to Harry in PS?
And if that is true he might be able to access to 12 GoP and whatever Sirius left him, if he left Harry something.
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therealscabbers - Oct 18, 2004 9:02 am (#174 of 365)
Petra t
Well I asume he gave it to Hagrid who gave it to Harry yes!
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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 18, 2004 2:01 pm (#175 of 365)
I agree with therealscabbers.Perhaps this is why in book 6 Harry will have his shortest stay ever with the Dursleys he will come into his inheritance.
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Tessa's Dad - Oct 20, 2004 8:00 am (#176 of 365)
Tired Old Bat Bogey
Considering the fact that house elves have different type of magic, could Dobby remove the unwanted pictures, tapestries, or other permanently stuck items from the walls?
I am making the assumption that Harry inherits the house and that Dobby will live with him.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 20, 2004 8:39 am (#177 of 365)
harry will also have to put up with Kreacher as well since Kreacher is the current house elf resident; which also means that Kreacher can be ordered to keep his mouth shut about every member of the order.
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haymoni - Oct 20, 2004 8:51 am (#178 of 365)
Why can't they just blast the portrait of Mrs. Black to smithereens???
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 20, 2004 9:19 am (#179 of 365)
"Anyone can cook"
Haymoni - Why can't they just blast the portrait of Mrs. Black to smithereens???
Ahhhh, my kind of girl!
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Tessa's Dad - Oct 20, 2004 12:17 pm (#180 of 365)
Tired Old Bat Bogey
Edited by Oct 20, 2004 12:19 pm
I can just imagine the fun when Kreacher insults Harry in front of Dobby. Harry could just order Kreacher to go live with the Dursleys.
I can see the box Harry ships Kreacher in, wonderful ribbons and a card that says;
Merry Christmas. To my favorite Aunt and Uncle. Love Harry
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Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 20, 2004 12:19 pm (#181 of 365)
I can just see Kreacher calling Dudley a "creature of Filth" in front of vernon or petunia
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 21, 2004 4:48 pm (#182 of 365)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"Merry Christmas. To my favorite Aunt and Uncle. Love Harry"
Tears running here...haven't laughed that hard in a long time. Talk about poetic justice!
Forget toddling to St. Mungo's, I'm catching the Knight bus!
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Solitaire - Oct 23, 2004 7:44 pm (#183 of 365)
LOL Haymoni! You and I must be on the same wavelength! That's just what I suggested over on the Chambers Clues thread: "Hermione is getting pretty good with her curses and jinxes. Perhaps she will be able to figure out a way to permanently silence Mrs. Black--or perhaps totally blast her off the wall!"
I'm wondering, though, if Dobby might not be just as effective, assuming he goes with Harry. He demonstrates such adoration and love for Harry that I think he might even be willing to leave Dumbledore to work for Harry. In fact, Dumbledore might prefer that Dobby was there to "keep an eye" on Harry!
I think the suggestion of sending Kreacher to Privet Drive is priceless! Come to think of it, if Dobby and Kreacher are left together, Dobby might solve the Kreacher problem altogether. He could smash Kreacher's ears in the oven a few times, or perhaps offer to cut off Kreacher's head and stick it up on the wall with his relatives.
Solitaire
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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 23, 2004 7:52 pm (#184 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Solitaire - "or perhaps offer to cut off Kreacher's head and stick it up on the wall with his relatives.
I WISH, I WISH, I WISH.
Mikie
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Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 23, 2004 7:57 pm (#185 of 365)
it will still be funny to see Kreacher show up at the dursley's muttering stuff evil about harry while telling Aunt Petunia "why is the Creature of filth talking to Kreacher"
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2004 12:53 pm (#186 of 365)
Solitaire said: "I'm wondering, though, if Dobby might not be just as effective, assuming he goes with Harry. He demonstrates such adoration and love for Harry that I think he might even be willing to leave Dumbledore to work for Harry. In fact, Dumbledore might prefer that Dobby was there to "keep an eye" on Harry!"
I love this idea! In CoS Dobby sent Lucius Malfoy flying down a flight of stairs when he threatened Harry. A free house elf would make a surprising and dangerous bodyguard...Of course, Dobby also had some strange ideas about how best to protect Harry too, like sending that mad Bludger after him, so it could also be a Risky proposition.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 26, 2004 4:12 pm (#187 of 365)
Dobby will probably switch between working at hogwarts during the school year and working at 12 grimmauld place during the summer if harry inharits the house. Kreacher will probably complain about harry bringing home another house elf.
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Solitaire - Oct 27, 2004 12:11 am (#188 of 365)
LOL Mrs Brisbee! Remember that when Harry asked Dobby to promise never to try and save his life again, Dobby didn't agree--he just smiled. So we could very well have another round of Dobby trying to save Harry by using lethal means to do so.
Solitaire
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 27, 2004 6:12 am (#189 of 365)
Aye, your right, Solitaire, Dobby didn't give a promise not to "save" Harry ever again. Though that could end up being a good thing, otherwise we might end up with a conversation like this--
Harry (surrounded by Death Eaters): "Dobby, a little help here!"
Dobby: "Dobby is very sorry, Harry Potter sir, but Dobby is keeping his promise not to try and save Harry Potter's life."
I can definately see Dobby being a useful protector at some point in the future, even if Harry will probably have to visit the hospital wing to recover from being saved
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Paulus Maximus - Oct 27, 2004 8:05 am (#190 of 365)
Was Harry's life at stake when Marietta betrayed the DA to Umbridge?
He might have saved Harry's life by tipping him off...
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M M - Oct 27, 2004 8:58 am (#191 of 365)
WARNING - Boring legal discussion follows
One more arcane legal point to put in, the house may be in "fee tail" instead of "fee simple."
For those of you who aren't Lawyers/Barristers/Solicitors and maybe for some of you who are (fee tail is pretty arcane and no longer in use anywhere in the U.S. except a watered down form in Delaware and I expect is long gone in England, Canada, Austrailia etc.) a brief explanation is surely needed.
Fee Simple is the way most land is held and is what we usually mean when we say someone "owns" a piece of property. There's also the ability to give property to someone for life and then have it go to another person (a typical situation for this to occur is a person who remarries late in life might want to make sure there new spouse has a place to live for the rest of there life but also wants to make sure there child will inherit eventually.)
In days of yore there was a third method, the Fee Tail or Fee Tail - Male. It is pretty complicated, but it amounts to an attempt to keep someone with your family name owning the property in perpetuity. The interesting part happens when the line dies out they have to find the closest male descendant of whoever set the fee tail up (not of whoever was last to hold the property!). It's been a while since I had property in law school so I can't recall the exact rules, but the only known living males in the Black family tree are the Weasleys and Draco Malfoy.
The only reason I bring this up is that Sirius - even though he was a convicted mass murderer was certain the house belonged to him because he was the last of the Blacks. Now it's certainly possible that he inherited everything just before he went to Azkaban prison (as far as I know we don't know when his parents died) and that was the reason he was sure he hadn't been disinherited. However, if they were still alive and Grimauld Place was in fee tail it wouldn't matter what his parents thought of him, the place would automatically be his. He also would have no say where it went after his death.
A fee-tail arrangement would appeal to people like the Blacks who were so obsessed with their family name. Perhaps in the wizarding world it's a fee tail - Male, Pure Blood?
Assuming none of the above is true and Sirius has left a will I'm inclined to say that he has left the house and a good chunk of his money to Lupin, but has left some powerful and cherished magic item to Harry.
Why Lupin rather then Harry for the bulk of his estate? Simply because he knows Harry has inherited a small fortune from his parents and hates Grimauld Place almost as much as he does. Giving it to a werewolf would also be an even bigger slap in the face to his parents then giving it to Harry. Lupin also needs a place to live and his future earning potential is uncertain because of the Ministries anti-werewolf legislation.
Mike
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Steve Newton - Oct 27, 2004 9:17 am (#192 of 365)
Librarian
As a Delawarean I am proud, humble and befuddled by this information.
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M M - Oct 27, 2004 10:28 am (#193 of 365)
Sorry for the befuddlement! I'm not a Delawarean myself but most of my mother's side of the family is so I always take note of Delaware refrences which is probably why I remembered this tidbit.
As I said it probably isn't the case (for one thing it would waste a lot of time explaining it!) but it just seems like the kind of thing the stuck up Black family would do.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 27, 2004 12:24 pm (#194 of 365)
Thank you for the imformative post, MM. I think you are right and that is probably how Sirius ended up with he property. If there was a fee tail we can't be sure who set it up or when. It would be a strange turn if Arthur ended up being the closest relative to the originator of the fee tail. Would the Weasleys inherit Kreacher too? Ugh.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 27, 2004 4:59 pm (#195 of 365)
Now what would Jo name that chapter? "House Poor--the Woes of Arthur Weasley, or, Thereby Hangs a (Fee) Tail."
How ever would you explain all this to 12 year olds? (Even her adult readers would have trouble.)
Ciao. Barb
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Good Evans - Oct 28, 2004 4:12 am (#196 of 365)
Practically perfect in every way
When I studied land law a few years ago - in UK we were only tutored about fee simple, and lots of other parts of legislation refer to fee simple so i think that is what normally would happen. HOWEVER there is nothing to stop the owner changing the entailing of the property, I like the thought that the property is entailed to the male heirs of the family by blood, that is very JK and if memory serves you are absolutely right that the next in line would be Draco. harry and draco having a legal fight over 12 grimauld place - that could be fun!!! Sirius hated it, so I wonder if harry would want it, but then where would the order go????
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therealscabbers - Oct 28, 2004 6:24 am (#197 of 365)
Petra t
I think someone would have to explain that all to JK before she could explain it to 12yr olds/ adults!!! :-)
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Solitaire - Oct 28, 2004 11:10 pm (#198 of 365)
Well, I was only a freshman in high school when I learned about "entailments" while reading Pride & Prejudice by Jane Austen. As an admitted Austen fan herself, JKR surely remembers the much-discussed entailment that would eventually secure Longbourn, the Bennet estate, away from the all-female Bennet family upon Mr. Bennet's death and leave it to "that odious Mr. Collins." An equally problematic situation occurs in Austen's Sense & Sensibility. Frankly, I would not be surprised to see this be an issue--although we have already seen a nod to Jane Austen in the name of Mrs. Norris the cat.
Solitaire
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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 29, 2004 9:01 am (#199 of 365)
I still think Harry will inherit Grimmauld Place.Sirius had used Harry's name to get money out of his vault at Gringotts to pay for the firebolt.Wouldn't Harry have to be listed as his heir or something like that?I know Molly gets money for Harry out of his vault alot I just thought Harry gave Gringotts permission for her to do such.Serius wouldn't be able to do same since he has been in Azkaban so I was thinking it had to be set up before Sirius was thrown in prison. Maybe it was after the christening.
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Solitaire - Oct 29, 2004 6:49 pm (#200 of 365)
That long ago, there might have been the assumption that Sirius would one day marry and have his own children. It will be interesting to see if Sirius was able to make a new will since leaving Azkaban--and if it would be accepted, if he had.
Edit: Come to think of it, with Sirius and the Potters in a war with Voldemort, they might very well have all had wills, even at their young ages. So it is highly possible that Harry could have been named as Sirius's heir. A lot will depend on how Mrs. Black disposed of her property.
Solitaire
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Practically perfect in every way
Edited by Sep 20, 2004 11:42 am
I'm going to harp back to earlier posts in ths discussion.... Dumbledore would know that any one of the order were in danger. As Kreacher clearly cannot be turned free I wonder if he had Sirius make a will and entail the family elf to someone in the order, to keep the secrets. It would be great if the elf were entialed to the Weasleys, Ron said back in CoS that Molly would love one to help with the ironing (I'm not sure that Molly would want kreacher but hey.....). And a bit more pointedly what about buckbeak? beaky is a fugitive and as such needs to be looked after (well fed dead ferrets, *waves to Draco*, anyway). Can an elf be entailed? I like the idea about them being tied to the house but I suspect it is the family. As Sirius' godson with a legal document(will) I wonder if this would be good enough to tie kreacher in a bit longer, and tie him to Harry?
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Dr Filibuster - Sep 20, 2004 12:05 pm (#152 of 365)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Good heavens! Hermione would go ballistic.
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Good Evans - Sep 20, 2004 12:36 pm (#153 of 365)
Practically perfect in every way
Absolutely! - just imagine the scene between harry and hermione ... bliss!
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timrew - Sep 20, 2004 4:10 pm (#154 of 365)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Buckbeak could be given back to Hagrid. With the Malfoys discredited, who would want it killed now? No-One.
In fact, Buckbeak could feature in a future book, eating Malfoy (the ferret boy), when he is in his ferret form. A fitting end for a bully - hippogriff fodder.
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Steve Newton - Sep 20, 2004 7:13 pm (#155 of 365)
Librarian
Well, in muggle terms the MOM wants Buckbeak dead. He was convicted and sentenced. That may now be overturned but the sentence should still stand.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 20, 2004 9:36 pm (#156 of 365)
Steve, that raisesthe following question: Is possible to distinguish one hippogriff from another?
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Detail Seeker - Sep 20, 2004 11:50 pm (#157 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Who would realize, that Buckbeak returned to the Forbidden forest ?
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Steve Newton - Sep 21, 2004 7:13 am (#158 of 365)
Librarian
Good questions. Anyone have any answers?
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Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 21, 2004 7:37 am (#159 of 365)
Hagrid, the centaurs and arthurs old car
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timrew - Sep 21, 2004 2:53 pm (#160 of 365)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
You put Hagrid, The Centaurs and Arthurs Old Car in a line-up with Buckbeak, and the MOM will pick out the Hippogriff every time!
But four Hippogriffs in a line-up.........?
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 21, 2004 4:51 pm (#161 of 365)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Hmm, they do come in different colors like horses, don't they?
Considering the laws that Dumbledore has already laid down to Fudge after the duel at the MOM, I see no reason for him not to have Fudge recend the order to kill Buckbeak. After all, I don't expect him to let Buckbeak stay at #12 with only Kreacher to tend to and feed him. Buckbeak only attacked after Draco insulted him, and we know Dumbledore gave him a second chance with the time-turner.
Now, what thread am I on? Oh yeah! I think Harry will wind up with #12, but will not want the house that Sirius hated so much, even if they can manage to peel Mrs Black off the wall! I do believe it will be continued to be used by the Order though.
...toddles away mumbling to self...how does one hide a hippogriff?
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TomProffitt - Sep 21, 2004 9:24 pm (#162 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
Every time, Tim? I only give them four out of five.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 22, 2004 8:45 am (#163 of 365)
I was making a comment about who would know if buckbeak has returned to the forbidden forest. I also don't think any ministry wizards would want to tread into the forbidden forest after Umbridge informs the ministry about all of the dangerous half breeds in the forest
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Good Evans - Sep 22, 2004 9:09 am (#164 of 365)
Practically perfect in every way
Edited by Sep 22, 2004 9:10 am
good point Kelly - but would beaky want to return to the wild after having spent a whole year in a bedroom of his own??? with food on tap? he he Tim, I have a lovely mental image of the line up and Malfoy with his face screwed up walking up and down the line.
I dont think they could give him to Hagrid as I dont think he could keep it quiet, but seriously he could return to the forest for as you say, who's gonna know any different.
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timrew - Sep 22, 2004 2:23 pm (#165 of 365)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
LOL! You're right, Tom. The MOM would probably set up a committee to try and decide which one in the line-up was the hippogriff.
Millions of galleons would be spent on an enquiry, and at the end of twelve months, they would pick Arthur's car.
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Phoenix song - Sep 22, 2004 8:25 pm (#166 of 365)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
You're forgetting to add an extra year so that a specially selected "panel" of experts including: psychologists; sociologists; economists; demographists; statisticians; dieticians; environmentalists; laboratory scientific experts; and various assorted politicos can study the affects that living in the forest has had upon those "creatures" within the line-up.
Then, and only then, can they reach an informed, costly decision as to whether Buckbeak the Hippogriff, escaped convicted felon, will be allowed to continue to live at 12 Grimmauld Place. {And then they'll still probably choose the car!}
Barbie
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Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 22, 2004 8:41 pm (#167 of 365)
$10 says that either Buckbeak or Lupin will inharit 12 grimmauld place just to drive Kreacher Crazy
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TomProffitt - Sep 22, 2004 9:00 pm (#168 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
"No, no, Chairman Geriatricus, that's your Assistant, she's not in the line up and shouldn't be considered as a possible Hippogriff."
"Don't contradict me, Weatherby!"
"Sorry, sir."
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Steve Newton - Sep 23, 2004 7:01 am (#169 of 365)
Librarian
As far as I can tell Buckbeak is not an intelligent creature. I don't see how he could inherit. I know, some crazy people do leave property to pets but there is usually a caretaker. Also, I don't think that Sirius was crazy, at least not in this way.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 23, 2004 9:59 am (#170 of 365)
it would be funny if Sirius left his entire estate except for all of the clothing to Kreacher.
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Solitaire - Oct 3, 2004 10:52 am (#171 of 365)
Kelly, below is my response to your last post on the DADA teacher thread. After posting it, I felt it belonged over here and moved it. --Solitaire
Kelly, I am not sure how the laws of inheritance operate these days, but in the past, there were often some bizarre twists in wills that determined how property was bequeathed. In a lot of ways, the Wizarding World seems to operate according to some rather archaic laws. I would not be surprised if property and inheritance laws were equally archaic.
It is entirely possible that there could have been a clause in his parents' will allowing Sirius the use of 12GP for his lifetime, but prohibiting him from leaving the house to anyone but blood relatives. In fact, I would be rather surprised if there was NOT such a clause, given the Blacks' hatred of anyone who was not pure-blood.
Sirius's parents' will(s) might have determined the line through which the house had to pass upon his death. I suppose we shall have to wait for book 6 to see whether or not Sirius left a will and whether he had the right to dispose of family property as he saw fit.
Given the nasty, vindictive nature of Mrs. Black, I don't think it is safe to assume that they would have done anything that allowed Sirius to act according to his wishes ... at least, not on purpose. In fact, I think it is a lot safer to assume she would try even after her death to prevent him from doing anything that would give him pleasure or a sense of satisfaction. Of course, that's just my take on things.
Solitaire
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therealscabbers - Oct 7, 2004 9:13 am (#172 of 365)
Petra t
Ok just finished reading all of the posts on this thread and have a couple of points - firstly right back at the beginning there was the assumption made that DD or Pet might be Harry's other Godparents, well JKR has said now that this is not so as it was a rushed christening due to the need to go into hiding so only Sirius was made a God parent and also a guardian to Harry, but of course when he was orphaned it was not possible for him to live with Sirius as he was in azkaban, so off to the nearest living relative which I think is normal practice here in the UK.
As for making a Will, I bought a house a couple of years ago, when I was 26yrs old and was informed that I should make a will so the house would go to whoever I wanted it to go to - so it makes sense that anyone who has a house should/ would be advised to make a will. Add to that the fact that all his mates were getting killed or tortured into insanity around him it also makes sense he would write a will.
So I am sure he did make a will and that Harry will be his beneficiary. Now as far as I am aware in the UK the make of the will can state at what age a child should get access to inheritance, if provision is not made then I am not sure what age the child gets the money, probably down to whoever has custody of him until he is 18.
As for Harry leaving the Dursleys, well in the UK you can leave home at 16 (as someone else mentioned) so from his 16th Birthday on the 31st July book 6 he can legally leave home and move into any place he wants to by muggle law. But of course for Harry there is more at stake, but as has also been mentioned he has basically got to the point now he knows about the prophecy and LV's return that he knows he is the only one who can stop the destruction of the world and will therefore decide for himself wether he stays at the Dursleys after his 16th - but until then he will still legally reside there anyway as they are his guardians.
Ok that's my 2 knuts
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veraco - Oct 18, 2004 8:19 am (#173 of 365)
therealscabbers Just to add a comment to your post, which I found very plausible.
"So I am sure he did make a will and that Harry will be his beneficiary. Now as far as I am aware in the UK the make of the will can state at what age a child should get access to inheritance, if provision is not made then I am not sure what age the child gets the money, probably down to whoever has custody of him until he is 18"
Harry's parents left him a small fortune in gold and Harry can access to that money since he was 11, and I can't seem to remember any kind of guardian to control that money or how Harry decide to spent it. There was just the key to the vault and that was it, which was kept from him until he knew he was a wizard. So maybe the laws in the wizarding world are not so similar to ours in that case or the custody of that money was given to someone who feels Harry is capable of handle it. Dumbledore perhaps since, if I'm not mistaken, he was the one who send the key to Harry in PS?
And if that is true he might be able to access to 12 GoP and whatever Sirius left him, if he left Harry something.
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therealscabbers - Oct 18, 2004 9:02 am (#174 of 365)
Petra t
Well I asume he gave it to Hagrid who gave it to Harry yes!
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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 18, 2004 2:01 pm (#175 of 365)
I agree with therealscabbers.Perhaps this is why in book 6 Harry will have his shortest stay ever with the Dursleys he will come into his inheritance.
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Tessa's Dad - Oct 20, 2004 8:00 am (#176 of 365)
Tired Old Bat Bogey
Considering the fact that house elves have different type of magic, could Dobby remove the unwanted pictures, tapestries, or other permanently stuck items from the walls?
I am making the assumption that Harry inherits the house and that Dobby will live with him.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 20, 2004 8:39 am (#177 of 365)
harry will also have to put up with Kreacher as well since Kreacher is the current house elf resident; which also means that Kreacher can be ordered to keep his mouth shut about every member of the order.
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haymoni - Oct 20, 2004 8:51 am (#178 of 365)
Why can't they just blast the portrait of Mrs. Black to smithereens???
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 20, 2004 9:19 am (#179 of 365)
"Anyone can cook"
Haymoni - Why can't they just blast the portrait of Mrs. Black to smithereens???
Ahhhh, my kind of girl!
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Tessa's Dad - Oct 20, 2004 12:17 pm (#180 of 365)
Tired Old Bat Bogey
Edited by Oct 20, 2004 12:19 pm
I can just imagine the fun when Kreacher insults Harry in front of Dobby. Harry could just order Kreacher to go live with the Dursleys.
I can see the box Harry ships Kreacher in, wonderful ribbons and a card that says;
Merry Christmas. To my favorite Aunt and Uncle. Love Harry
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Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 20, 2004 12:19 pm (#181 of 365)
I can just see Kreacher calling Dudley a "creature of Filth" in front of vernon or petunia
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 21, 2004 4:48 pm (#182 of 365)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"Merry Christmas. To my favorite Aunt and Uncle. Love Harry"
Tears running here...haven't laughed that hard in a long time. Talk about poetic justice!
Forget toddling to St. Mungo's, I'm catching the Knight bus!
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Solitaire - Oct 23, 2004 7:44 pm (#183 of 365)
LOL Haymoni! You and I must be on the same wavelength! That's just what I suggested over on the Chambers Clues thread: "Hermione is getting pretty good with her curses and jinxes. Perhaps she will be able to figure out a way to permanently silence Mrs. Black--or perhaps totally blast her off the wall!"
I'm wondering, though, if Dobby might not be just as effective, assuming he goes with Harry. He demonstrates such adoration and love for Harry that I think he might even be willing to leave Dumbledore to work for Harry. In fact, Dumbledore might prefer that Dobby was there to "keep an eye" on Harry!
I think the suggestion of sending Kreacher to Privet Drive is priceless! Come to think of it, if Dobby and Kreacher are left together, Dobby might solve the Kreacher problem altogether. He could smash Kreacher's ears in the oven a few times, or perhaps offer to cut off Kreacher's head and stick it up on the wall with his relatives.
Solitaire
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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 23, 2004 7:52 pm (#184 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Solitaire - "or perhaps offer to cut off Kreacher's head and stick it up on the wall with his relatives.
I WISH, I WISH, I WISH.
Mikie
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Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 23, 2004 7:57 pm (#185 of 365)
it will still be funny to see Kreacher show up at the dursley's muttering stuff evil about harry while telling Aunt Petunia "why is the Creature of filth talking to Kreacher"
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2004 12:53 pm (#186 of 365)
Solitaire said: "I'm wondering, though, if Dobby might not be just as effective, assuming he goes with Harry. He demonstrates such adoration and love for Harry that I think he might even be willing to leave Dumbledore to work for Harry. In fact, Dumbledore might prefer that Dobby was there to "keep an eye" on Harry!"
I love this idea! In CoS Dobby sent Lucius Malfoy flying down a flight of stairs when he threatened Harry. A free house elf would make a surprising and dangerous bodyguard...Of course, Dobby also had some strange ideas about how best to protect Harry too, like sending that mad Bludger after him, so it could also be a Risky proposition.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 26, 2004 4:12 pm (#187 of 365)
Dobby will probably switch between working at hogwarts during the school year and working at 12 grimmauld place during the summer if harry inharits the house. Kreacher will probably complain about harry bringing home another house elf.
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Solitaire - Oct 27, 2004 12:11 am (#188 of 365)
LOL Mrs Brisbee! Remember that when Harry asked Dobby to promise never to try and save his life again, Dobby didn't agree--he just smiled. So we could very well have another round of Dobby trying to save Harry by using lethal means to do so.
Solitaire
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 27, 2004 6:12 am (#189 of 365)
Aye, your right, Solitaire, Dobby didn't give a promise not to "save" Harry ever again. Though that could end up being a good thing, otherwise we might end up with a conversation like this--
Harry (surrounded by Death Eaters): "Dobby, a little help here!"
Dobby: "Dobby is very sorry, Harry Potter sir, but Dobby is keeping his promise not to try and save Harry Potter's life."
I can definately see Dobby being a useful protector at some point in the future, even if Harry will probably have to visit the hospital wing to recover from being saved
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Paulus Maximus - Oct 27, 2004 8:05 am (#190 of 365)
Was Harry's life at stake when Marietta betrayed the DA to Umbridge?
He might have saved Harry's life by tipping him off...
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M M - Oct 27, 2004 8:58 am (#191 of 365)
WARNING - Boring legal discussion follows
One more arcane legal point to put in, the house may be in "fee tail" instead of "fee simple."
For those of you who aren't Lawyers/Barristers/Solicitors and maybe for some of you who are (fee tail is pretty arcane and no longer in use anywhere in the U.S. except a watered down form in Delaware and I expect is long gone in England, Canada, Austrailia etc.) a brief explanation is surely needed.
Fee Simple is the way most land is held and is what we usually mean when we say someone "owns" a piece of property. There's also the ability to give property to someone for life and then have it go to another person (a typical situation for this to occur is a person who remarries late in life might want to make sure there new spouse has a place to live for the rest of there life but also wants to make sure there child will inherit eventually.)
In days of yore there was a third method, the Fee Tail or Fee Tail - Male. It is pretty complicated, but it amounts to an attempt to keep someone with your family name owning the property in perpetuity. The interesting part happens when the line dies out they have to find the closest male descendant of whoever set the fee tail up (not of whoever was last to hold the property!). It's been a while since I had property in law school so I can't recall the exact rules, but the only known living males in the Black family tree are the Weasleys and Draco Malfoy.
The only reason I bring this up is that Sirius - even though he was a convicted mass murderer was certain the house belonged to him because he was the last of the Blacks. Now it's certainly possible that he inherited everything just before he went to Azkaban prison (as far as I know we don't know when his parents died) and that was the reason he was sure he hadn't been disinherited. However, if they were still alive and Grimauld Place was in fee tail it wouldn't matter what his parents thought of him, the place would automatically be his. He also would have no say where it went after his death.
A fee-tail arrangement would appeal to people like the Blacks who were so obsessed with their family name. Perhaps in the wizarding world it's a fee tail - Male, Pure Blood?
Assuming none of the above is true and Sirius has left a will I'm inclined to say that he has left the house and a good chunk of his money to Lupin, but has left some powerful and cherished magic item to Harry.
Why Lupin rather then Harry for the bulk of his estate? Simply because he knows Harry has inherited a small fortune from his parents and hates Grimauld Place almost as much as he does. Giving it to a werewolf would also be an even bigger slap in the face to his parents then giving it to Harry. Lupin also needs a place to live and his future earning potential is uncertain because of the Ministries anti-werewolf legislation.
Mike
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Steve Newton - Oct 27, 2004 9:17 am (#192 of 365)
Librarian
As a Delawarean I am proud, humble and befuddled by this information.
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M M - Oct 27, 2004 10:28 am (#193 of 365)
Sorry for the befuddlement! I'm not a Delawarean myself but most of my mother's side of the family is so I always take note of Delaware refrences which is probably why I remembered this tidbit.
As I said it probably isn't the case (for one thing it would waste a lot of time explaining it!) but it just seems like the kind of thing the stuck up Black family would do.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 27, 2004 12:24 pm (#194 of 365)
Thank you for the imformative post, MM. I think you are right and that is probably how Sirius ended up with he property. If there was a fee tail we can't be sure who set it up or when. It would be a strange turn if Arthur ended up being the closest relative to the originator of the fee tail. Would the Weasleys inherit Kreacher too? Ugh.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 27, 2004 4:59 pm (#195 of 365)
Now what would Jo name that chapter? "House Poor--the Woes of Arthur Weasley, or, Thereby Hangs a (Fee) Tail."
How ever would you explain all this to 12 year olds? (Even her adult readers would have trouble.)
Ciao. Barb
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Good Evans - Oct 28, 2004 4:12 am (#196 of 365)
Practically perfect in every way
When I studied land law a few years ago - in UK we were only tutored about fee simple, and lots of other parts of legislation refer to fee simple so i think that is what normally would happen. HOWEVER there is nothing to stop the owner changing the entailing of the property, I like the thought that the property is entailed to the male heirs of the family by blood, that is very JK and if memory serves you are absolutely right that the next in line would be Draco. harry and draco having a legal fight over 12 grimauld place - that could be fun!!! Sirius hated it, so I wonder if harry would want it, but then where would the order go????
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therealscabbers - Oct 28, 2004 6:24 am (#197 of 365)
Petra t
I think someone would have to explain that all to JK before she could explain it to 12yr olds/ adults!!! :-)
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Solitaire - Oct 28, 2004 11:10 pm (#198 of 365)
Well, I was only a freshman in high school when I learned about "entailments" while reading Pride & Prejudice by Jane Austen. As an admitted Austen fan herself, JKR surely remembers the much-discussed entailment that would eventually secure Longbourn, the Bennet estate, away from the all-female Bennet family upon Mr. Bennet's death and leave it to "that odious Mr. Collins." An equally problematic situation occurs in Austen's Sense & Sensibility. Frankly, I would not be surprised to see this be an issue--although we have already seen a nod to Jane Austen in the name of Mrs. Norris the cat.
Solitaire
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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 29, 2004 9:01 am (#199 of 365)
I still think Harry will inherit Grimmauld Place.Sirius had used Harry's name to get money out of his vault at Gringotts to pay for the firebolt.Wouldn't Harry have to be listed as his heir or something like that?I know Molly gets money for Harry out of his vault alot I just thought Harry gave Gringotts permission for her to do such.Serius wouldn't be able to do same since he has been in Azkaban so I was thinking it had to be set up before Sirius was thrown in prison. Maybe it was after the christening.
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Solitaire - Oct 29, 2004 6:49 pm (#200 of 365)
That long ago, there might have been the assumption that Sirius would one day marry and have his own children. It will be interesting to see if Sirius was able to make a new will since leaving Azkaban--and if it would be accepted, if he had.
Edit: Come to think of it, with Sirius and the Potters in a war with Voldemort, they might very well have all had wills, even at their young ages. So it is highly possible that Harry could have been named as Sirius's heir. A lot will depend on how Mrs. Black disposed of her property.
Solitaire
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Who's Going to Inherit 12 Grimmauld Place (Post 201 to 250)
Elanor Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:51 am
DJ Evans - Oct 29, 2004 7:27 pm (#201 of 365)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Solitaire: A lot will depend on how Mrs. Black disposed of her property.
Hmmm, you know Mr. Black could have willed the house to Sirius with the understanding that Mrs. Black would be able to live there for the rest of her lifetime. And with Sirius having the feelings that he did for his family, not really wanting to have anything more to do with them, just considered #12 Grimmauld Place as hers.
I'm with the rest who are thinking that those involved with the first go around with LV had their wills made up back then. Or it sounds the most logical to me at least. Now I'm just wondering if Sirius would have included the house in his will, if he made one back some 15 years ago?
Later, Deb
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Solitaire - Oct 29, 2004 8:10 pm (#202 of 365)
Deb, I've had a legal, bona fide will since I was in my early twenties, and I have no children (just nieces), so I should not wonder that Sirius might have one. Duh!
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Czarina II - Oct 30, 2004 10:29 am (#203 of 365)
Well, even if Sirius's will was old, if it said "I leave all my worldly possessions to X", then the house is included in the "worldly possessions" part because it belonged to Sirius before his death.
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Solitaire - Oct 30, 2004 4:10 pm (#204 of 365)
Czarina, that is true, if if the house is truly his--meaning there is not some sort of entailment that was in place by a previous will, leaving it to Sirius conditionally only. It is possible that it could have been left to him to use while he was alive ... or that it would become his free and clear only if he produced a male heir. In such a case, the first will would supersede Sirius's will, and his would come into play only (probably) if there were no other person named as the beneficiary in the first will. I realize that sounds bizarre, but it HAS happened before.
Solitaire
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wickedweasley - Oct 31, 2004 8:32 am (#205 of 365)
Will there be any public acknowledgement of Sirius' death? He is still technically an escaped murderer who the order and Dumbledore have been sheilding. They have no more evidence of his innocence than they did before and there is no body to explain away... Rather than open a whole can of worms just when people are coming to trust in Dumbledores word again. Why would they?
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Solitaire - Oct 31, 2004 8:46 am (#206 of 365)
Excellent point, WW. But we do not know what is behind that veil ... and whether or not there are people in the Ministry who work there and might be able to learn that Sirius fell behind it.
Some of the DEs who were arrested might blab about Sirius having been with those who were fighting against them. Or they might mention Bella killing Sirius. It's hard to know just what they will find out. It is even possible that Dumbledore may already have told Fudge. Remember that he stayed behind at the Ministry for a bit when he sent Harry back to Hogwarts. I do not doubt that information about Sirius must have come out, because it was the key to why they were all there in the first place ... right?
Solitaire
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wickedweasley - Oct 31, 2004 10:20 am (#207 of 365)
Edited by Oct 31, 2004 10:21 am
perhaps, I do not doubt that Fudge now knows he truth, but he is in enough trouble already why would he want another collosal mistake on his part publisised for all to know, also who would believe a word from the Death Eaters they are publicly disgraced. I just think that it is very possible that his death may not become public knowledge their may be rumors but I think it may be more advantageous to the order for it to remain a secret for now.
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vanessa cave - Nov 3, 2004 5:42 am (#208 of 365)
can i just pip in wicked weasley you ask why would anyone trust dumbledores word? i think after the events in OTP everyone will be behind him again and beleiving everything he has to say.
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Phoenix song - Nov 3, 2004 7:11 am (#209 of 365)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
JKR has told us that we can trust the word of Dumbledore and Hermione to be accurate. (They may keep things secret, but they do not lie to each other.)
Barbie
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wickedweasley - Nov 3, 2004 11:36 am (#210 of 365)
I was not trying to say that we or anyone else should not trust DD just that there seems to be no real advantage to br gained by anyone through making it public knowledge
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Kelly Kapaoski - Nov 3, 2004 7:23 pm (#211 of 365)
I can see Sirius making a will for one of those just in case emergencies for if he does die. that would be just in case he dies an someone will be there to keep Kreacher in line and not leak information about the order
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kabloink! - Nov 27, 2004 1:44 pm (#212 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
Isn't Kreacher only responsible to answer to Black family members, though? That's why he went to the Malfoy's. Somehow, I also think that while we will see Kreacher again, it will not be at 12 Grimmauld Place, so a will probably wouldn't include him much. I haven't read the entirety of this thread yet, but what about Ron? Tihs may seem a bit out of left field, but Sirius did give Ron Pigwidgeon, knowing that he had taken his rat. Molly and Sirius might have had their differences, but he knew how little the Weasleys have...perhaps he wanted to ensure the safety of Harry's friends? The more I think about it, the more the idea seems unlikely, but it just came to me and I thought I would put it out there for discussion.
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Solitaire - Nov 27, 2004 2:14 pm (#213 of 365)
I should think it would have been difficult for Sirius to make a will while he was in hiding. Unless one of the Order members was a Wizard Notary or something, how could it have been done? If he did make a will that was official it would probably have been done either before the Potters were killed (when did Sirius's parents die?) or when he was in Azkaban.
Even if an Order member could have legally handled it for him, how would that member explain having been in the company of Sirius when he was supposedly an escaped criminal? That would make the Order member subject to aiding and abetting a criminal. Isn't that a crime?
kabloink, the Weasleys, as distant relatives, would seem to fall under consideration as heirs. But the problems would be the same ... how would Sirius designate them when he is in hiding? It would seem that any binding will would almost have to be one that was made before Sirius escaped from Azkaban.
Solitaire
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kabloink! - Nov 27, 2004 2:34 pm (#214 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
Well. Sirius, while in hiding, was in constant contact with DD. I would assume that if someone was qualified to make a magical will official, it would be DD. I had a feeling, however, that magical wills wouldn't necessarily have to be 'notarized' the way we do with Muggle wills. Perhaps they are magically sealed and made official?
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MickeyCee3948 - Nov 27, 2004 3:34 pm (#215 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
kabloink!-Your idea about the Weasleys inheriting #12 may not be that far-fetched. They are related remember. Just not listed on the family tree.
Mikie
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Solitaire - Nov 27, 2004 4:24 pm (#216 of 365)
Come to think of it, now that Sirius is dead and Voldemort is acknowledged as truly being back, attention must be paid to the issue of Peter Pettigrew not being dead at all ... which would kind of let Sirius off the hook for a lot of things. And if he is off the hook, then I guess no one else could be prosecuted (or whatever they do) for concealing his whereabouts from the authorities the past two years.
I think the Weasleys inheriting 12GP is a great idea ... and yes, they are relatives, however distant. Unfortunately, they have been wiped off the tapestry. I suppose Tonks (also wiped off) is another one who would be in line to inherit. Granted, she is farther down the line than Narcissa, Bella or Andromeda (her mother). It would seem there is no shortage of heirs. There may even be some we do not yet know! It will be interesting to see who ultimately winds up in possession, won't it?
Solitaire
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MzWhizz123 - Nov 27, 2004 4:45 pm (#217 of 365)
Personally, I would like to see Andromeda inherit the place. Sirius said she was his favorite cousin. I'll bet anyone who would walk away from the Black Family to marry a muggle and then give the world Tanks would be quite a character!
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Solitaire - Nov 27, 2004 4:53 pm (#218 of 365)
LOL MzWhizz! I heartily agree!
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kabloink! - Nov 27, 2004 10:09 pm (#219 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
Is Andromeda still alive? I know that they don't say anything about it, but for some reason, I had got the impression that she was dead. I have no idea why I thought that, though.
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MzWhizz123 - Nov 28, 2004 11:04 am (#220 of 365)
When Tonks is helping Harry pack at the beginning of OP, she talks about her mother in the present tense: "My mum's got this knack of getting stuff to fit itself in neatly--she even get socks to fold themselves--bit I've never mastered how she does it--it's a kind of flick--..."
When Sirius mentions her, he says, "her mother, Andromeda, was my favorite cousin" giving the impression that she is dead, since we had been discussing those who had died. But it could also mean that either she is no longer his favorite cousin, which opens another can of worms, or he does not see her anymore.
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Solitaire - Nov 28, 2004 8:16 pm (#221 of 365)
I got the idea from Tonks, too, that Andromeda is still alive. Perhaps the reason Sirius talks about her in the past tense is that he has not seen her since before he went to prison. If she was his favorite cousin, maybe he is staying away from her, in case she is being watched by the Magical Law Enforcement. Remember, he is still a wanted man in OotP.
Solitaire
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Madame Pomfrey - Nov 29, 2004 3:11 pm (#222 of 365)
I still think Harry is in the will.Criminals I believe can still have a will drawn even in prison.The reason I think Harry will be included is the fact that Sirius used Harry's name to get money from his vault at Gringotts to buy Harry's Firebolt.This tells me that Sirius' money is already at Harry's disposal.
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essie125 - Nov 30, 2004 9:47 am (#223 of 365)
Jo, of course I think about Alan when I think about Snape, Who wouldn't think about Alan all day every day eh.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but isn't Tonks a cousin of Sirius. maybe she inherits everything. And then they can still keep it as order's headquarters.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Nov 30, 2004 11:24 am (#224 of 365)
here is a thought if sirius made a will "I Leave all of my property to Harry Potter on the condition that he continues to allow the order of the phoenix to use the residence of 12 Grimmauld place as their headquarters until Voldemort and his death eaters are Defeated once and for all. also to my dear 2nd cousin Nymphadora tonks I leave my house elf Kreacher to do with as she pleases"
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Maddest Dragon - Dec 5, 2004 5:10 pm (#225 of 365)
You really think Sirius would be so mean as to will Kreacher to Tonks--or to anyone else who isn't his enemy?
Speaking of house elves, someone a while back suggested that Dobby might be willing to leave Dumbledore and go work for Harry. Well, if Dobby wanted to work for Harry, he could at any time. He's free, so he doesn't belong to Dumbledore or anyone else. All it would take for Dobby to work for Harry would be an agreement between them, probably with Harry agreeing to pay Dobby a salary. Which Harry might do if he inherits 12 Grimmauld Place, something happens to Kreacher (or, as is highly likely, Kreacher won't cooperate with him), and Harry realizes that there's an awful lot of work to be done that requires a house elf's touch.
Despite all the well thought out reasons people are giving for people other than Harry to inherit, I still firmly believe it'll be Harry--and Kreacher will be a problem one way or another, and Dobby will probably lend a hand.
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Solitaire - Dec 5, 2004 10:23 pm (#226 of 365)
I suggested Dobby might go to work for Harry in post #183. It sounded to me like something Dumbledore might suggest ... IF Harry does indeed inherit 12GP. I posted (somewhere else, I guess) that I can't see Harry living there with Kreacher, the one who indirectly caused Sirius's death. I also suggested that Dobby might be able to solve the "Kreacher problem" entirely!
Solitaire
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essie125 - Dec 6, 2004 7:21 am (#227 of 365)
Jo, of course I think about Alan when I think about Snape, Who wouldn't think about Alan all day every day eh.
what is it with this whole Dobby getting rid of Kreacher stuff. Didn't we read in OoP that there is a far more easier way to get rid of houseelves who are old and or useless. It happened to Kreachers parents and other relatives. They are simply beheaded. kreacher even says that he would find it an honour to be beheaded. But then again by doeing this harry would please him and I don't think he wants to do that.
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dizzy lizzy - Dec 6, 2004 1:48 pm (#228 of 365)
There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Ah yes being beheaded is something Kreacher finds quite honourable. I want Dobby to "deal with" Kreacher because Kreacher isn't going to find Dobby's "attentions" honourable in the least (how about painful and humiliating??).
Also Dobby is loyal to Harry and is problably spitting chips about now at the way Harry was treated by Kreacher. So yes I see some kind of justice if Dobby could indeed fix Kreacher!!!
I think this will happen eventually regardless of whether Harry inherits 12 Grimmauld Place or not. The betrayal of Harry by a rogue house elf is probably enough for Dobby to go in and deal with Kreacher.
Lizzy
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Detail Seeker - Dec 6, 2004 4:52 pm (#229 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Why the want to dishonour Kreacher ?
Kreacher acted according to his code of honour and by that he has every right to do so. His ways may not be approved of by most of us here, but within his world view, they are honourable. That is something we have to accept.
The lack of the idea, that an "honourable enemy" exists is the nucleus of all the crusades around - In the Potterverse many a Death Eater´s crusades ( I exempt LV and e.g. Bella from this, because they have a different agenda, hidden to most of the other DEs), Umbridge´s crusade against anything endangering Fudge, ...
Fighting with an "honourable enemy" for life and death and all means to defeat him - yes, that is necessary. But after the fight you can pay him respect due. And if that respect says "behead him" instead of kill him by means deemed unworthy by him, so then behead him.
The last one hundred years in the Real World have a tradition of the winner nominating enemy leaders "war criminals", giving them a show trial and hanging them afterwards instead of shooting, of inventing a status not defined by international law to PoWs as not have to give them the rights, a PoW has to be given.
Thinking of revenge by humiliation might be tempting in this case, but it would drag the actors to a low niveau of style. I do not think, Dumbledore would appreciate this.
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Steve Newton - Dec 6, 2004 6:11 pm (#230 of 365)
Librarian
I don't see what Kreacher acting according to his code of honor has to do with anything. You can do that and still be evil and punished.
What he has the right to do? Who has the right to get somebody killed who isn't threatening their life? No one.
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kabloink! - Dec 7, 2004 4:23 am (#231 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
I really don't think that Harry is going to have to 'deal' with Kreacher. Kreacher has already gone on to the remaining members of his family that were not in prison, the Malfoys. I think we will see him again, but not necessarily at 12 Grimmauld Place.
It almost seems poetic justice, Harry frees the Malfoy's house elf who didn't want to work for them, Kreacher betrays Sirius and goes to the Malfoys and replaces Dobby. DObby then comes to live with Harry (or Lupin or whomever) at 12 Grimmauld place. I like it!
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Detail Seeker - Dec 7, 2004 3:17 pm (#232 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Steve, I see Kreacher as seeing himself as being a part of the VW II - on the Pure Blood side, loyal to her, whom he deems to be his real master in that House. Though bound to obey Sirius, he still feels, that, having been blasted from the family, Sirius has no right to be in GP12. So, he takes part in that war. so, I do not object in fighting Kreacher with deadly means, too, I object to humiliating him before. Kill him, but kill him with style.
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TomProffitt - Dec 7, 2004 7:27 pm (#233 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
I have to agree with Detail Seeker here. The 20th Century was replete with examples of the "peace" of one war sowing the seeds for the next.
Dumbledore is too smart and noble to allow another Treaty of Versailles or Nuremburg show trials.
Of course this presumes the survival of Dumbledore.
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Tomoé - Dec 7, 2004 9:39 pm (#234 of 365)
Back in business
To humiliate the defeated adversary and postpone or cancel his death sentence for later enjoyment is the classical method the badies in the old Batman series or the James Bond movies, and guess what, both Batman and James Bond always find a way out in the gap. So, I somehow can't imagine Moody allowing it. Plus, Dumbledore wouldn't allow anyone to humiliate Kreacher.
Edit : in fact, I wouldn't be surprise if Moody had already disposed of Kreacher by the end of OoP.
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hells456 - Dec 8, 2004 4:42 am (#235 of 365)
I think Kreacher is horrible, but he is really a better house elf than Dobby. Dobby ran away from his house and family to go against their wishes (a terrible crime for a house elf), Kreacher waited until told to leave, and went to another member of his family. As far as he was concerned Sirius was the bad guy, turning against his family and their beliefs.
Kreacher is very loyal, I wonder if there is some way to transfer his loyalty to the Blacks to someone else. He was serving the Noble House of Black, but now the last Black has gone he will have to do one of three things, 1. stay with the house 2. be relocated by the ministry or 3. kill himself because all the Blacks have gone.
I think it is very interesting that now "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" is now just 12 Grimmauld Place. Does this mean that Mrs Black's portrait and the tapestry will be removable as it is no longer the house of Black?
As to who will inherit, I think Lupin. Lupin has been living there for over a year although he does go away on Order business often. I think if Sirius had a choice he would leave it to his last best friend, possibly with the intention of passing it down to Harry when it's time,
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Daisy Pennifold - Dec 8, 2004 7:25 am (#236 of 365)
I don't think that Sirius is the type to leave a will. Even if he had, I don't think that he'd be able to dispose of 12GP. It may be too much Jane Austen, but I think that it will be entailed away from Sirius's control "in default of heirs male" to a blood family member WITH a male heir...namely, Narcissa and Draco Malfoy.
That would also take care of Kreacher. I assume the house elf goes with the house.
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hells456 - Dec 8, 2004 9:44 am (#237 of 365)
That's a horrible thought, Daisy, but it does seem highly likely. You never know, Draco might take a detour to go and see their new property...
On the other hand, even in Jane Austen's day not all properties were entailed onto male members of the family. I'll have to keep my fingers crossed.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 10, 2004 4:12 pm (#238 of 365)
I think 12 Grimmauld Place will go to Harry Potter since Sirius was named the legal guardian of Harry Potter if anything should happen to James and Lily Potter. This would make Harry the closest thing that Sirius Black has to a son and heir to all of his possesions. But Narcissa would probably think that either her, Bellatrix or Andromeda will inharit the house and want to get the jump on her sisters and check out to see if sirius left a last will and she will bring Draco along with her to help her look for it but they find out that the house isn't there anymore.
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Solitaire - Dec 11, 2004 9:50 pm (#239 of 365)
Tomoé, why do you think Moody will be the one to do it? Just curious ...
Hells, those who are known by the name of Black are gone, to be sure. However, Andromeda, Narcissa, and Bella all bear the Black name as their maiden name, although I doubt Kreacher would be too interested in working for Andromeda, who is married to a Muggle-born Wizard. I can see him passing to either Bella or, more likely, Narcissa. Interesting question about the tapestry and Mrs. B's portrait. I've been hoping Dobby could come over and blast them off the wall!
Daisy, I tend to think along your lines. I am reminded of the entailment of the Longbourn estate away from the Bennet girls and to Mr. Collins in P&P. Entailing the estate away from Sirius--in the event he produced no male heir--seems just exactly like something nasty, hateful old Mrs. Black might do!
Can't you just imagine snooty Draco in grimy, doxy-infested 12GP? I hope Draco makes a detour there and decides to inspect the house while everyone in the Order is away on business ... and finds Buckbeak all by himself. hehehe
Solitaire
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Daisy Pennifold - Dec 12, 2004 7:02 am (#240 of 365)
They had cleaned it pretty well by Christmas, according to OP, Solitaire:
"...he [Sirius] worked tirelessly in the run-up to Christmas Day, cleaning and decorating with their help, so that by the time they all went to bed on Christmas Eve the house was barely recognizable. The tarnished chandeliers were no longer hung with cobwebs but with garlands of holly and gold and silver streamers; magical snow glittered in heaps over the threadbare carpets..." [US 501]
I definitely agree that Draco would turn up his nose at the "threadbare carpets" and other signs of age and general disuse, but I think the idea of taking something from Harry would far outweigh his displeasure at the condition of the house, especially since Harry and the others had all worked so hard cleaning and everything. Just think, months of hard work, and Draco Malfoy takes over!
I was just thinking this morning that Sirius should have given his mum's portrait the same treatment he gave the Fat Lady in POA. I wonder why he didn't?
In the same vein, could the portrait be hiding something behind it? A secret room or something? I don't know what purpose this would serve to the plot, but after putting up with Mrs. B all last book it would be nice if she were good for something.
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hells456 - Dec 12, 2004 5:19 pm (#241 of 365)
Good thought about Mrs B, Daisy. I hadn't considered that we did see a lot about that portrait. If there is a secret room I wonder what could be hidden in it? Hopefully not Mrs B herself :-)
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Solitaire - Dec 12, 2004 9:40 pm (#242 of 365)
I think the permanent sticking charm is just one more indicator of the fact that Mrs. Black wanted to be around to make Sirius's life miserable--even after she was dead.
About the cleaned house ... I know it was pretty well cleaned at one time. But I am wondering what it might look like if (notice I said if) only Kreacher is left there to take care of it. After all, didn't it get into the horrible condition we saw under his "tender care"? Does anyone know many years had the Blacks, Sr., been dead before Sirius and the Order took up residence there? Just curious ...
Solitaire
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Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 13, 2004 5:09 am (#243 of 365)
I don't think it says how long sirius and Regulus blacks father has been dead but Mrs. Black has been dead since about 1985.
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Tomoé - Dec 15, 2004 11:33 am (#244 of 365)
Back in business
Solitaire -> Tomoé, why do you think Moody will be the one to do it? just serious ...
Because he's the one who never think one can be over-prudent, and since Kreacher is slacky on cleaning and traitorous to boot, there's nothing to gain by leaving him live, it would be more prudent to put his head on the wall. So I think Moody could do it out of hazard-free concern. I also believe Moody will either do it or we'll learn he tried to do it. ^_^
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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 15, 2004 4:25 pm (#245 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I agree Tomoe I don't think Kreacher will be around unless DD steps in and stops it.
Mikie
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Ydnam96 - Dec 15, 2004 8:49 pm (#246 of 365)
I'm not a Kreacher fan, but I think it would be cruel to kill him off or whatever for doing what is in his nature. Granted, he did play a part in Siruis' death...but let's think about his life: He was raised by a line of house elf's that have worked for the Blacks for what appears to be several generations. We know the Blacks were, well, horrible people. They probably treated their house elves very poorly, then when they had enough of them the house elves were beheaded. Now, put all that in the mix with the fact that Kreacher never knew anything else but that life, a life of lying, deciet, greed, and the like. It's no wonder he turned out the way he did. He did stay loyal, he did keep Sirius' secrets.
I'm not saying I like him. Just that maybe he was doomed from the beginning. I'm not sure what the answer is, if you can imprison a house elf for playing part in a murder, but I know the order doens't simply want to let him go. Because then he would be free to tell whatever secrets it is he has hidden. They might have to just keep him holed up in his closet for the rest of his life...
So, I guess the point of this post was to say I agree with Detail Seeker.
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Tomoé - Dec 16, 2004 6:44 am (#247 of 365)
Back in business
So, you basically propose a lifetime imprisonment in his "den" rather than death. So in that matter, Kreacher's opinion shouldn't be taken into consideration, because is just a house-elf? or maybe because his choice doesn't fit with yours? He want to be beheaded and he want his head to be stuffed and put on the wall like his ancestors. What's so bad with death that the Order can't grant Kreacher his wish and do everyone, including Kreacher, a favor?
Edit : Kreacher does have strange values, to say the least, and no one can change them if he don't want to and he doesn't seem to want. A lifetime imprisonnement in his den will just make him bitterer, that would be a worst punishement for him.
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kabloink! - Dec 16, 2004 7:50 am (#248 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
Hmm, call me crazy, but I think that this discussion is heading in an unpleasant direction regarding punishments and who deserves them. I'm not a mod or anything, so I don't want to scold, but I Really don't want this thread to go the way of the Marietta Edgecomb one...
I still think Harry or ROn will inherit 12 Grimmauld Place, unless perhaps Lupin does not have a place of his own. I didn't think he did, being a werewolf and thus it being so difficult for him to find employment. So perhaps Sirius would entail the porperty to him, the last marauder standing(meaning alive and not evil), oddly enough.
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Solitaire - Dec 16, 2004 8:29 am (#249 of 365)
Haven't we been told in the past that Moody usually brought DEs in alive? If I'm remembering correctly, that doesn't seem to square with him "taking care of" Kreacher, to me.
I agree that life imprisonment in GP would be horrible. Look at what the past several years have done to him already! Someone said the Blacks died in 1985. With Sirius in prison, this would have left Kreacher alone in that horrible house several years. I would imagine that contributed heavily to his current mental state, as he seems a virtual shut-in (with the exception of his little excursion to visit Narcissa over the holidays). Of course, I could be wrong, and maybe he was always like this.
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Dec 16, 2004 8:32 am (#250 of 365)
Librarian
Solitaire, I can't check right now, but, I think that it was said that Moody tried to bring them in alive if he could. It suggests that one or two were of the dead variety.
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Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Solitaire: A lot will depend on how Mrs. Black disposed of her property.
Hmmm, you know Mr. Black could have willed the house to Sirius with the understanding that Mrs. Black would be able to live there for the rest of her lifetime. And with Sirius having the feelings that he did for his family, not really wanting to have anything more to do with them, just considered #12 Grimmauld Place as hers.
I'm with the rest who are thinking that those involved with the first go around with LV had their wills made up back then. Or it sounds the most logical to me at least. Now I'm just wondering if Sirius would have included the house in his will, if he made one back some 15 years ago?
Later, Deb
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Solitaire - Oct 29, 2004 8:10 pm (#202 of 365)
Deb, I've had a legal, bona fide will since I was in my early twenties, and I have no children (just nieces), so I should not wonder that Sirius might have one. Duh!
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Czarina II - Oct 30, 2004 10:29 am (#203 of 365)
Well, even if Sirius's will was old, if it said "I leave all my worldly possessions to X", then the house is included in the "worldly possessions" part because it belonged to Sirius before his death.
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Solitaire - Oct 30, 2004 4:10 pm (#204 of 365)
Czarina, that is true, if if the house is truly his--meaning there is not some sort of entailment that was in place by a previous will, leaving it to Sirius conditionally only. It is possible that it could have been left to him to use while he was alive ... or that it would become his free and clear only if he produced a male heir. In such a case, the first will would supersede Sirius's will, and his would come into play only (probably) if there were no other person named as the beneficiary in the first will. I realize that sounds bizarre, but it HAS happened before.
Solitaire
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wickedweasley - Oct 31, 2004 8:32 am (#205 of 365)
Will there be any public acknowledgement of Sirius' death? He is still technically an escaped murderer who the order and Dumbledore have been sheilding. They have no more evidence of his innocence than they did before and there is no body to explain away... Rather than open a whole can of worms just when people are coming to trust in Dumbledores word again. Why would they?
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Solitaire - Oct 31, 2004 8:46 am (#206 of 365)
Excellent point, WW. But we do not know what is behind that veil ... and whether or not there are people in the Ministry who work there and might be able to learn that Sirius fell behind it.
Some of the DEs who were arrested might blab about Sirius having been with those who were fighting against them. Or they might mention Bella killing Sirius. It's hard to know just what they will find out. It is even possible that Dumbledore may already have told Fudge. Remember that he stayed behind at the Ministry for a bit when he sent Harry back to Hogwarts. I do not doubt that information about Sirius must have come out, because it was the key to why they were all there in the first place ... right?
Solitaire
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wickedweasley - Oct 31, 2004 10:20 am (#207 of 365)
Edited by Oct 31, 2004 10:21 am
perhaps, I do not doubt that Fudge now knows he truth, but he is in enough trouble already why would he want another collosal mistake on his part publisised for all to know, also who would believe a word from the Death Eaters they are publicly disgraced. I just think that it is very possible that his death may not become public knowledge their may be rumors but I think it may be more advantageous to the order for it to remain a secret for now.
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vanessa cave - Nov 3, 2004 5:42 am (#208 of 365)
can i just pip in wicked weasley you ask why would anyone trust dumbledores word? i think after the events in OTP everyone will be behind him again and beleiving everything he has to say.
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Phoenix song - Nov 3, 2004 7:11 am (#209 of 365)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
JKR has told us that we can trust the word of Dumbledore and Hermione to be accurate. (They may keep things secret, but they do not lie to each other.)
Barbie
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wickedweasley - Nov 3, 2004 11:36 am (#210 of 365)
I was not trying to say that we or anyone else should not trust DD just that there seems to be no real advantage to br gained by anyone through making it public knowledge
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Kelly Kapaoski - Nov 3, 2004 7:23 pm (#211 of 365)
I can see Sirius making a will for one of those just in case emergencies for if he does die. that would be just in case he dies an someone will be there to keep Kreacher in line and not leak information about the order
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kabloink! - Nov 27, 2004 1:44 pm (#212 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
Isn't Kreacher only responsible to answer to Black family members, though? That's why he went to the Malfoy's. Somehow, I also think that while we will see Kreacher again, it will not be at 12 Grimmauld Place, so a will probably wouldn't include him much. I haven't read the entirety of this thread yet, but what about Ron? Tihs may seem a bit out of left field, but Sirius did give Ron Pigwidgeon, knowing that he had taken his rat. Molly and Sirius might have had their differences, but he knew how little the Weasleys have...perhaps he wanted to ensure the safety of Harry's friends? The more I think about it, the more the idea seems unlikely, but it just came to me and I thought I would put it out there for discussion.
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Solitaire - Nov 27, 2004 2:14 pm (#213 of 365)
I should think it would have been difficult for Sirius to make a will while he was in hiding. Unless one of the Order members was a Wizard Notary or something, how could it have been done? If he did make a will that was official it would probably have been done either before the Potters were killed (when did Sirius's parents die?) or when he was in Azkaban.
Even if an Order member could have legally handled it for him, how would that member explain having been in the company of Sirius when he was supposedly an escaped criminal? That would make the Order member subject to aiding and abetting a criminal. Isn't that a crime?
kabloink, the Weasleys, as distant relatives, would seem to fall under consideration as heirs. But the problems would be the same ... how would Sirius designate them when he is in hiding? It would seem that any binding will would almost have to be one that was made before Sirius escaped from Azkaban.
Solitaire
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kabloink! - Nov 27, 2004 2:34 pm (#214 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
Well. Sirius, while in hiding, was in constant contact with DD. I would assume that if someone was qualified to make a magical will official, it would be DD. I had a feeling, however, that magical wills wouldn't necessarily have to be 'notarized' the way we do with Muggle wills. Perhaps they are magically sealed and made official?
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MickeyCee3948 - Nov 27, 2004 3:34 pm (#215 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
kabloink!-Your idea about the Weasleys inheriting #12 may not be that far-fetched. They are related remember. Just not listed on the family tree.
Mikie
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Solitaire - Nov 27, 2004 4:24 pm (#216 of 365)
Come to think of it, now that Sirius is dead and Voldemort is acknowledged as truly being back, attention must be paid to the issue of Peter Pettigrew not being dead at all ... which would kind of let Sirius off the hook for a lot of things. And if he is off the hook, then I guess no one else could be prosecuted (or whatever they do) for concealing his whereabouts from the authorities the past two years.
I think the Weasleys inheriting 12GP is a great idea ... and yes, they are relatives, however distant. Unfortunately, they have been wiped off the tapestry. I suppose Tonks (also wiped off) is another one who would be in line to inherit. Granted, she is farther down the line than Narcissa, Bella or Andromeda (her mother). It would seem there is no shortage of heirs. There may even be some we do not yet know! It will be interesting to see who ultimately winds up in possession, won't it?
Solitaire
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MzWhizz123 - Nov 27, 2004 4:45 pm (#217 of 365)
Personally, I would like to see Andromeda inherit the place. Sirius said she was his favorite cousin. I'll bet anyone who would walk away from the Black Family to marry a muggle and then give the world Tanks would be quite a character!
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Solitaire - Nov 27, 2004 4:53 pm (#218 of 365)
LOL MzWhizz! I heartily agree!
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kabloink! - Nov 27, 2004 10:09 pm (#219 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
Is Andromeda still alive? I know that they don't say anything about it, but for some reason, I had got the impression that she was dead. I have no idea why I thought that, though.
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MzWhizz123 - Nov 28, 2004 11:04 am (#220 of 365)
When Tonks is helping Harry pack at the beginning of OP, she talks about her mother in the present tense: "My mum's got this knack of getting stuff to fit itself in neatly--she even get socks to fold themselves--bit I've never mastered how she does it--it's a kind of flick--..."
When Sirius mentions her, he says, "her mother, Andromeda, was my favorite cousin" giving the impression that she is dead, since we had been discussing those who had died. But it could also mean that either she is no longer his favorite cousin, which opens another can of worms, or he does not see her anymore.
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Solitaire - Nov 28, 2004 8:16 pm (#221 of 365)
I got the idea from Tonks, too, that Andromeda is still alive. Perhaps the reason Sirius talks about her in the past tense is that he has not seen her since before he went to prison. If she was his favorite cousin, maybe he is staying away from her, in case she is being watched by the Magical Law Enforcement. Remember, he is still a wanted man in OotP.
Solitaire
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Madame Pomfrey - Nov 29, 2004 3:11 pm (#222 of 365)
I still think Harry is in the will.Criminals I believe can still have a will drawn even in prison.The reason I think Harry will be included is the fact that Sirius used Harry's name to get money from his vault at Gringotts to buy Harry's Firebolt.This tells me that Sirius' money is already at Harry's disposal.
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essie125 - Nov 30, 2004 9:47 am (#223 of 365)
Jo, of course I think about Alan when I think about Snape, Who wouldn't think about Alan all day every day eh.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but isn't Tonks a cousin of Sirius. maybe she inherits everything. And then they can still keep it as order's headquarters.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Nov 30, 2004 11:24 am (#224 of 365)
here is a thought if sirius made a will "I Leave all of my property to Harry Potter on the condition that he continues to allow the order of the phoenix to use the residence of 12 Grimmauld place as their headquarters until Voldemort and his death eaters are Defeated once and for all. also to my dear 2nd cousin Nymphadora tonks I leave my house elf Kreacher to do with as she pleases"
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Maddest Dragon - Dec 5, 2004 5:10 pm (#225 of 365)
You really think Sirius would be so mean as to will Kreacher to Tonks--or to anyone else who isn't his enemy?
Speaking of house elves, someone a while back suggested that Dobby might be willing to leave Dumbledore and go work for Harry. Well, if Dobby wanted to work for Harry, he could at any time. He's free, so he doesn't belong to Dumbledore or anyone else. All it would take for Dobby to work for Harry would be an agreement between them, probably with Harry agreeing to pay Dobby a salary. Which Harry might do if he inherits 12 Grimmauld Place, something happens to Kreacher (or, as is highly likely, Kreacher won't cooperate with him), and Harry realizes that there's an awful lot of work to be done that requires a house elf's touch.
Despite all the well thought out reasons people are giving for people other than Harry to inherit, I still firmly believe it'll be Harry--and Kreacher will be a problem one way or another, and Dobby will probably lend a hand.
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Solitaire - Dec 5, 2004 10:23 pm (#226 of 365)
I suggested Dobby might go to work for Harry in post #183. It sounded to me like something Dumbledore might suggest ... IF Harry does indeed inherit 12GP. I posted (somewhere else, I guess) that I can't see Harry living there with Kreacher, the one who indirectly caused Sirius's death. I also suggested that Dobby might be able to solve the "Kreacher problem" entirely!
Solitaire
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essie125 - Dec 6, 2004 7:21 am (#227 of 365)
Jo, of course I think about Alan when I think about Snape, Who wouldn't think about Alan all day every day eh.
what is it with this whole Dobby getting rid of Kreacher stuff. Didn't we read in OoP that there is a far more easier way to get rid of houseelves who are old and or useless. It happened to Kreachers parents and other relatives. They are simply beheaded. kreacher even says that he would find it an honour to be beheaded. But then again by doeing this harry would please him and I don't think he wants to do that.
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dizzy lizzy - Dec 6, 2004 1:48 pm (#228 of 365)
There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Ah yes being beheaded is something Kreacher finds quite honourable. I want Dobby to "deal with" Kreacher because Kreacher isn't going to find Dobby's "attentions" honourable in the least (how about painful and humiliating??).
Also Dobby is loyal to Harry and is problably spitting chips about now at the way Harry was treated by Kreacher. So yes I see some kind of justice if Dobby could indeed fix Kreacher!!!
I think this will happen eventually regardless of whether Harry inherits 12 Grimmauld Place or not. The betrayal of Harry by a rogue house elf is probably enough for Dobby to go in and deal with Kreacher.
Lizzy
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Detail Seeker - Dec 6, 2004 4:52 pm (#229 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Why the want to dishonour Kreacher ?
Kreacher acted according to his code of honour and by that he has every right to do so. His ways may not be approved of by most of us here, but within his world view, they are honourable. That is something we have to accept.
The lack of the idea, that an "honourable enemy" exists is the nucleus of all the crusades around - In the Potterverse many a Death Eater´s crusades ( I exempt LV and e.g. Bella from this, because they have a different agenda, hidden to most of the other DEs), Umbridge´s crusade against anything endangering Fudge, ...
Fighting with an "honourable enemy" for life and death and all means to defeat him - yes, that is necessary. But after the fight you can pay him respect due. And if that respect says "behead him" instead of kill him by means deemed unworthy by him, so then behead him.
The last one hundred years in the Real World have a tradition of the winner nominating enemy leaders "war criminals", giving them a show trial and hanging them afterwards instead of shooting, of inventing a status not defined by international law to PoWs as not have to give them the rights, a PoW has to be given.
Thinking of revenge by humiliation might be tempting in this case, but it would drag the actors to a low niveau of style. I do not think, Dumbledore would appreciate this.
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Steve Newton - Dec 6, 2004 6:11 pm (#230 of 365)
Librarian
I don't see what Kreacher acting according to his code of honor has to do with anything. You can do that and still be evil and punished.
What he has the right to do? Who has the right to get somebody killed who isn't threatening their life? No one.
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kabloink! - Dec 7, 2004 4:23 am (#231 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
I really don't think that Harry is going to have to 'deal' with Kreacher. Kreacher has already gone on to the remaining members of his family that were not in prison, the Malfoys. I think we will see him again, but not necessarily at 12 Grimmauld Place.
It almost seems poetic justice, Harry frees the Malfoy's house elf who didn't want to work for them, Kreacher betrays Sirius and goes to the Malfoys and replaces Dobby. DObby then comes to live with Harry (or Lupin or whomever) at 12 Grimmauld place. I like it!
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Detail Seeker - Dec 7, 2004 3:17 pm (#232 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
Steve, I see Kreacher as seeing himself as being a part of the VW II - on the Pure Blood side, loyal to her, whom he deems to be his real master in that House. Though bound to obey Sirius, he still feels, that, having been blasted from the family, Sirius has no right to be in GP12. So, he takes part in that war. so, I do not object in fighting Kreacher with deadly means, too, I object to humiliating him before. Kill him, but kill him with style.
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TomProffitt - Dec 7, 2004 7:27 pm (#233 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
I have to agree with Detail Seeker here. The 20th Century was replete with examples of the "peace" of one war sowing the seeds for the next.
Dumbledore is too smart and noble to allow another Treaty of Versailles or Nuremburg show trials.
Of course this presumes the survival of Dumbledore.
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Tomoé - Dec 7, 2004 9:39 pm (#234 of 365)
Back in business
To humiliate the defeated adversary and postpone or cancel his death sentence for later enjoyment is the classical method the badies in the old Batman series or the James Bond movies, and guess what, both Batman and James Bond always find a way out in the gap. So, I somehow can't imagine Moody allowing it. Plus, Dumbledore wouldn't allow anyone to humiliate Kreacher.
Edit : in fact, I wouldn't be surprise if Moody had already disposed of Kreacher by the end of OoP.
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hells456 - Dec 8, 2004 4:42 am (#235 of 365)
I think Kreacher is horrible, but he is really a better house elf than Dobby. Dobby ran away from his house and family to go against their wishes (a terrible crime for a house elf), Kreacher waited until told to leave, and went to another member of his family. As far as he was concerned Sirius was the bad guy, turning against his family and their beliefs.
Kreacher is very loyal, I wonder if there is some way to transfer his loyalty to the Blacks to someone else. He was serving the Noble House of Black, but now the last Black has gone he will have to do one of three things, 1. stay with the house 2. be relocated by the ministry or 3. kill himself because all the Blacks have gone.
I think it is very interesting that now "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" is now just 12 Grimmauld Place. Does this mean that Mrs Black's portrait and the tapestry will be removable as it is no longer the house of Black?
As to who will inherit, I think Lupin. Lupin has been living there for over a year although he does go away on Order business often. I think if Sirius had a choice he would leave it to his last best friend, possibly with the intention of passing it down to Harry when it's time,
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Daisy Pennifold - Dec 8, 2004 7:25 am (#236 of 365)
I don't think that Sirius is the type to leave a will. Even if he had, I don't think that he'd be able to dispose of 12GP. It may be too much Jane Austen, but I think that it will be entailed away from Sirius's control "in default of heirs male" to a blood family member WITH a male heir...namely, Narcissa and Draco Malfoy.
That would also take care of Kreacher. I assume the house elf goes with the house.
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hells456 - Dec 8, 2004 9:44 am (#237 of 365)
That's a horrible thought, Daisy, but it does seem highly likely. You never know, Draco might take a detour to go and see their new property...
On the other hand, even in Jane Austen's day not all properties were entailed onto male members of the family. I'll have to keep my fingers crossed.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 10, 2004 4:12 pm (#238 of 365)
I think 12 Grimmauld Place will go to Harry Potter since Sirius was named the legal guardian of Harry Potter if anything should happen to James and Lily Potter. This would make Harry the closest thing that Sirius Black has to a son and heir to all of his possesions. But Narcissa would probably think that either her, Bellatrix or Andromeda will inharit the house and want to get the jump on her sisters and check out to see if sirius left a last will and she will bring Draco along with her to help her look for it but they find out that the house isn't there anymore.
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Solitaire - Dec 11, 2004 9:50 pm (#239 of 365)
Tomoé, why do you think Moody will be the one to do it? Just curious ...
Hells, those who are known by the name of Black are gone, to be sure. However, Andromeda, Narcissa, and Bella all bear the Black name as their maiden name, although I doubt Kreacher would be too interested in working for Andromeda, who is married to a Muggle-born Wizard. I can see him passing to either Bella or, more likely, Narcissa. Interesting question about the tapestry and Mrs. B's portrait. I've been hoping Dobby could come over and blast them off the wall!
Daisy, I tend to think along your lines. I am reminded of the entailment of the Longbourn estate away from the Bennet girls and to Mr. Collins in P&P. Entailing the estate away from Sirius--in the event he produced no male heir--seems just exactly like something nasty, hateful old Mrs. Black might do!
Can't you just imagine snooty Draco in grimy, doxy-infested 12GP? I hope Draco makes a detour there and decides to inspect the house while everyone in the Order is away on business ... and finds Buckbeak all by himself. hehehe
Solitaire
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Daisy Pennifold - Dec 12, 2004 7:02 am (#240 of 365)
They had cleaned it pretty well by Christmas, according to OP, Solitaire:
"...he [Sirius] worked tirelessly in the run-up to Christmas Day, cleaning and decorating with their help, so that by the time they all went to bed on Christmas Eve the house was barely recognizable. The tarnished chandeliers were no longer hung with cobwebs but with garlands of holly and gold and silver streamers; magical snow glittered in heaps over the threadbare carpets..." [US 501]
I definitely agree that Draco would turn up his nose at the "threadbare carpets" and other signs of age and general disuse, but I think the idea of taking something from Harry would far outweigh his displeasure at the condition of the house, especially since Harry and the others had all worked so hard cleaning and everything. Just think, months of hard work, and Draco Malfoy takes over!
I was just thinking this morning that Sirius should have given his mum's portrait the same treatment he gave the Fat Lady in POA. I wonder why he didn't?
In the same vein, could the portrait be hiding something behind it? A secret room or something? I don't know what purpose this would serve to the plot, but after putting up with Mrs. B all last book it would be nice if she were good for something.
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hells456 - Dec 12, 2004 5:19 pm (#241 of 365)
Good thought about Mrs B, Daisy. I hadn't considered that we did see a lot about that portrait. If there is a secret room I wonder what could be hidden in it? Hopefully not Mrs B herself :-)
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Solitaire - Dec 12, 2004 9:40 pm (#242 of 365)
I think the permanent sticking charm is just one more indicator of the fact that Mrs. Black wanted to be around to make Sirius's life miserable--even after she was dead.
About the cleaned house ... I know it was pretty well cleaned at one time. But I am wondering what it might look like if (notice I said if) only Kreacher is left there to take care of it. After all, didn't it get into the horrible condition we saw under his "tender care"? Does anyone know many years had the Blacks, Sr., been dead before Sirius and the Order took up residence there? Just curious ...
Solitaire
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Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 13, 2004 5:09 am (#243 of 365)
I don't think it says how long sirius and Regulus blacks father has been dead but Mrs. Black has been dead since about 1985.
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Tomoé - Dec 15, 2004 11:33 am (#244 of 365)
Back in business
Solitaire -> Tomoé, why do you think Moody will be the one to do it? just serious ...
Because he's the one who never think one can be over-prudent, and since Kreacher is slacky on cleaning and traitorous to boot, there's nothing to gain by leaving him live, it would be more prudent to put his head on the wall. So I think Moody could do it out of hazard-free concern. I also believe Moody will either do it or we'll learn he tried to do it. ^_^
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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 15, 2004 4:25 pm (#245 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I agree Tomoe I don't think Kreacher will be around unless DD steps in and stops it.
Mikie
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Ydnam96 - Dec 15, 2004 8:49 pm (#246 of 365)
I'm not a Kreacher fan, but I think it would be cruel to kill him off or whatever for doing what is in his nature. Granted, he did play a part in Siruis' death...but let's think about his life: He was raised by a line of house elf's that have worked for the Blacks for what appears to be several generations. We know the Blacks were, well, horrible people. They probably treated their house elves very poorly, then when they had enough of them the house elves were beheaded. Now, put all that in the mix with the fact that Kreacher never knew anything else but that life, a life of lying, deciet, greed, and the like. It's no wonder he turned out the way he did. He did stay loyal, he did keep Sirius' secrets.
I'm not saying I like him. Just that maybe he was doomed from the beginning. I'm not sure what the answer is, if you can imprison a house elf for playing part in a murder, but I know the order doens't simply want to let him go. Because then he would be free to tell whatever secrets it is he has hidden. They might have to just keep him holed up in his closet for the rest of his life...
So, I guess the point of this post was to say I agree with Detail Seeker.
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Tomoé - Dec 16, 2004 6:44 am (#247 of 365)
Back in business
So, you basically propose a lifetime imprisonment in his "den" rather than death. So in that matter, Kreacher's opinion shouldn't be taken into consideration, because is just a house-elf? or maybe because his choice doesn't fit with yours? He want to be beheaded and he want his head to be stuffed and put on the wall like his ancestors. What's so bad with death that the Order can't grant Kreacher his wish and do everyone, including Kreacher, a favor?
Edit : Kreacher does have strange values, to say the least, and no one can change them if he don't want to and he doesn't seem to want. A lifetime imprisonnement in his den will just make him bitterer, that would be a worst punishement for him.
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kabloink! - Dec 16, 2004 7:50 am (#248 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
Hmm, call me crazy, but I think that this discussion is heading in an unpleasant direction regarding punishments and who deserves them. I'm not a mod or anything, so I don't want to scold, but I Really don't want this thread to go the way of the Marietta Edgecomb one...
I still think Harry or ROn will inherit 12 Grimmauld Place, unless perhaps Lupin does not have a place of his own. I didn't think he did, being a werewolf and thus it being so difficult for him to find employment. So perhaps Sirius would entail the porperty to him, the last marauder standing(meaning alive and not evil), oddly enough.
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Solitaire - Dec 16, 2004 8:29 am (#249 of 365)
Haven't we been told in the past that Moody usually brought DEs in alive? If I'm remembering correctly, that doesn't seem to square with him "taking care of" Kreacher, to me.
I agree that life imprisonment in GP would be horrible. Look at what the past several years have done to him already! Someone said the Blacks died in 1985. With Sirius in prison, this would have left Kreacher alone in that horrible house several years. I would imagine that contributed heavily to his current mental state, as he seems a virtual shut-in (with the exception of his little excursion to visit Narcissa over the holidays). Of course, I could be wrong, and maybe he was always like this.
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Dec 16, 2004 8:32 am (#250 of 365)
Librarian
Solitaire, I can't check right now, but, I think that it was said that Moody tried to bring them in alive if he could. It suggests that one or two were of the dead variety.
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Who's Going to Inherit 12 Grimmauld Place (Post 251 to 300)
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Tomoé - Dec 16, 2004 9:01 am (#251 of 365)
Back in business
When Moody brought the DE in, they were still suspect, not convicted yet. It doesn't seem it make much difference in Crouch Sr's head, but in Moody's it was a difference. When convicted or with a trial in process, Moddy didn't mind them to be in compagny of Dementors, though. Or maybe he though death was to good a fate for them ...
I'll leave the subject here before it turns to be another Marietta Edgecombe.
I don't think Ron is anything close to get 12 Grimmauld Place, Arthur is not yet dead, sure he'll get the priority in heirdom over his children. If you meant through Molly, she's Sirius's cousin by marriage. Does it matter on which side of the familly? cousin by marriage, that means she have not commun blood with the black famiy, does it matter?
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kabloink! - Dec 16, 2004 9:06 am (#252 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
I was thinking if Sirius had left a will between the time he left Azkaban and the time he died, perhaps he would leave it to Ron. It is a bit far fetched, but ROn is family (albeit distant), he's Harry's best friend, and in all honesty, he doesn't have much to start his life with outside of Hogwarts. Granted, we don't know how that might change now that VOldemort is in the open. It was just an idea that came into my head awhile ago that I had thought I might vocalize.
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hells456 - Dec 16, 2004 4:39 pm (#253 of 365)
I don't understand why people think Kreacher staying locked in 12GP is bad or cruel. Kreacher loves the house and its contents, that why he was so upset over the Order being there and them clearing stuff out. It was because of his strong loyaty and family values (even if we think they're misguided) that he tried to protect the house and contents by going to Narcissa, another Black, and then only when ordered out by Sirius. I also got the impression that most house elves were essentially shut in and did not go out much although I could be wrong. I think all he wants is to live in the House of Black as he has always done until he dies and gets his head on a wall. I think he would rather die than have to go and serve a different family (especially if they are like the Weasleys).
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Ydnam96 - Dec 17, 2004 4:22 am (#254 of 365)
I definetly did not mean to offend anyone. I was simply trying to say I thought killing Kreacher was quite mean for what he did and that keeping him alive was a more humaine way of going about things. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 17, 2004 5:24 am (#255 of 365)
well with sirius dead Kreacher is allowed to leak as much information as he wants to Voldemort including the spy in the death eater ranks Snape so the order is going to have to do something about him if he is now free.
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hells456 - Dec 17, 2004 6:29 am (#256 of 365)
Is he allowed to leak information? I took it that he was tied to the Black family, he reamained loyal to Mrs Black although she had been dead for years. He didn't go to Narcissa for LV's benefit, but because of loyalty to the Blacks. From his point of view Sirius is the disowned blood traitor (and a murderer to boot) that was fouling and plundering the house of his masters.
I don't think he is free, he is still enslaved to wizardkind, he just needs new masters/relocating. I do see your point though that he may be able to leak secrets to the other side, but I don't think that is his primary goal. If it was he wouldn't have waited until told to get out by Sirius, he could have done a Dobby and gone to Narcissa earlier. Once he'd seen her he was merely following her orders as she was a Black (and a better one than Sirius).
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Tomoé - Dec 17, 2004 4:39 pm (#257 of 365)
Back in business
hells456, I don't think Kreacher staying locked in 12GP is bad or cruel as long as he can do his house-elf duties, but I do think locking Kreacher in his den (that couldn't have more than 1 squared meter, 10 squared feet) with no one to take care of is cruel.
We know the house-elves are pushed to take care of wizards (either by their nature or by the old charm the wizards set on them, it doesn't matter which), we know even Dobby don't want more than one day off a week. They like to take care of wizards, they like to do a good job, that's make them feel useful and happy. I just can't see Dumbledore allowing Kreacher to do against his nature. He would be more likely to hire Kreacher at Hogwarts.
Now, would locking Kreacher be of any use? Well, I'm not sure about it, house-elves can apparate in Hogwarts, maybe there no spell to prevent Kreacher to disapparate to anywhere else, not if no Black to him to stay.
I'm sorry if my dry, cynical type of humour hurted anyone, and I apology for the bad mood that it set.
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Solitaire - Dec 17, 2004 8:45 pm (#258 of 365)
First, Tomoé, I do not see anything wrong in what you have said. I think it is fair to discuss Kreacher and what will happen to him. He was a key player in the events that resulted in Sirius's death, so people are bound to have strong feelings about him.
I don't know why people can't express different opinions without others feeling they are being cruel, etc. These are fictional characters. I would hate to see this discussion curtailed like the Marietta discussion. Everybody loses when that happens.
Getting back to some comments I've read here ...
I think the discussion of Dobby vs. Kreacher as far as the quality of their House-elf performance is fascinating. To be sure, Kreacher followed the "letter of the law" for House-elves better than Dobby. However, Dobby seems to have a more highly developed social conscience and was willing to take action to save the life of someone he respected, even though that person was not a member of his "family" or household.
When I consider Dobby's actions in CoS, this is how I see it. Dobby remembers (or has been told) how things were before Voldemort was vaporized, and even though they may not be great for him, they are better than they were. Dobby knows there is a plot to make terrible things happen at Hogwarts, and he fears for Harry. This could be an altruistic fear, but Dobby says that Harry is too important--leading me to believe he knows Harry's place in the overall scheme of things in the Wizarding World (which will undoubtedly affect Dobby himself).
I suppose Dobby's actions can be seen as having a social conscience ... or they can be seen as affection and esteem for Harry ... or they can be seen as fear for his own neck. The latter seems the least likely, but it does need to be considered.
Anyway, Dobby defies his family and acts in a manner that seems to indicate concern and compassion not for his family but for his fellow magical beings in general. I doubt Kreacher would ever do this. He prefers to just serve his own family--those among them that he can respect--and let the rest of the world fall into a hole somewhere. I suppose it can be argued that this makes Kreacher the more obedient House-elf and Dobby the troublemaker.
I guess it depends on one's point of view ... but if all House-elves are enslaved to masters like the Malfoys, it seems that there is little hope of them developing a sense of ethics if it does not come from within, as Dobby's seems to do. **putting up dungbomb shield**
Solitaire
Edit: This seems to be more about House-elves and probably should be on the House-elf thread ... but Kreacher is definitely a concern where the future of GP is discussed.
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kabloink! - Dec 20, 2004 6:15 am (#259 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
I'm sorry if I made anyone feel like they had offended me. It wasn't that at all. IT just seemed as though the topic was heading more toward ethics than anything else, and I simply did not want anyone to end up hurt or offended. Again, I apologize if I offended anyone for the comment that I made.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 20, 2004 1:34 pm (#260 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I rather suspect Kreacher only claims to want to be put on the wall with his relatives because it is a horrible and shocking thing to say. When push comes to shove, he might just say "Oh, I'll serve the Weasleys, thank you please." and grumble about it for the remainder of his years. He seems to take pleasure in misery. But he did not seem suicidal to me.
I am really enamoured by this Edwardian 'fee tail' idea and I think it is one of the most plausible of possibilities. This would leave either Mr. Weasley or Draco Malfoy as the next heir. And so, I could see Draco taking great pleasure in taking the house from Harry, but at the same time talking down how disgusting the wretched house is--and blame Harry and 'those filthy mudbloods and blood traitors' for its condition.
On the other hand, I'm not so sure how Mrs. Weasley would feel about leaving the Burrow. That home expresses so much of what the Weasleys are about. A decayed miserable old mansion might simply be too foreign a concept for her for permanent living.
If Sirius had a will, I think now he would either leave the house to Lupin or Harry if he could. And I rather think DD must have ordered him to create a will if Sirius didn't think to do it himself.
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mike miller - Dec 21, 2004 12:45 pm (#261 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Sorry to divert away from the discussion of Kreacher, but I must officially change my prediction regarding Harry inheriting #12 GP. I think Sirius did leave a will and it will surrender #12 GP to Dumbledore to use as he sees fit and until it can no longer serve the Order. It may then be handed over to Tonks or even Narcissa, by then I think it will be a moot point.
I'm changing my opinion because I now believe that Spinners End is truly Sirius's home prior to being sent to Azkaban. It is this home that Harry will inherit in chapter two of HBP. Harry will leave #4 PD before his birthday (nullifying the protection he recieves there) to attend the reading of the will and his surprise 16th birthday party. I have posted more on the HBP Chapters thread.
This summer and next will require much more of Harry than sitting around with the Dursleys; and, with the war escalating there may be no truly safe place left for Harry.
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Fawkes Egg - Dec 26, 2004 4:50 am (#262 of 365)
Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
OK, this probably isn't the right thread, but why is there this pervasive assumption (not just you, mike) that Harry's blood protection is dependent on him spending his birthday at the Dursleys'? Dumbledore's precise words were, "You need only return there once a year,...".
That says nothing about what dates he need to spend there.
I do agree with the idea of Harry leaving the Dursley's early being somehow tied to his inheritance from Sirius. And I think Sirius may have left him one or other of his properties. If that was 12GP, I could see the remaining Blacks contesting it though.
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TomProffitt - Dec 26, 2004 7:27 am (#263 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
"OK, this probably isn't the right thread, but why is there this pervasive assumption ... that Harry's blood protection is dependent on him spending his birthday at the Dursleys'?" --- Fawkes Egg
The assumption lies with trying to find something in common between the five books so far. It is asking the question "What do Harry's stays at Privet Drive have in common thus far?" The answer seems to be, "He doesn't leave until after his birthday." Dumbledore not only says "You need only return there once a year ... " he also says, "A place you can call home."
That is where the assumption comes from. I don't think there are any other clues. It's not much to go on, but it does have some validity to it, I think.
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mike miller - Dec 26, 2004 10:50 am (#264 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Well said Tom! There isn't much to go on.
Fawkes Egg - I think there have been 2 clues as to what counts in calling #4 PD "home". Home is where your family lives. The 2 clues about family that JKR has given us is Harry being at #4 PD on his birthday and recieving Christmas gifts, horrible as they may be.
As I've said before, the protection was set up for infant Harry and has served him well for 15 years. I think we'll see a change in HBP. If Harry leaves #4 PD before his birthday (shortest stay) then I think it will signify the end of the protection he recieves there. Other things are becoming more important than having a "safe house" for Harry to hide in for a couple of months each year.
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Magical Me - Jan 2, 2005 5:07 am (#265 of 365)
Does anyone think that when the Potters made Sirius Harry's godfather, he may have (way back then) made out a Will leaving everything to either James or Harry?
After all, those were dark times and members of the original Order of the Phoenix were dropping like flies. It only makes sense that Sirius would have contemplated the possibility of his death back then (even though he was young and brash). Given how he feels about his blood relatives, I can imagine him being positively gleeful about signing a document leaving everything he owns to anyone BUT his relatives.
What I don't understand so well, is why SIrius' mother didn't leave Grimmauld Place to someone else (Narcissa?) in HER Will.
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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 11:28 am (#266 of 365)
Unless Sirius was required to make a Last Will and Testament in Azkaban--or an Order member had the legal power to make one for him while he was at 12GP--I don't see how an escaped prisoner in hiding from the law would be able to have a legal will made.
The idea of Sirius having made a will before the Potters died makes more sense, as I believe Sirius felt he would probably be killed by Voldemort in his quest to find the Potters. If Sirius was willing to die for them, it makes sense that he would name them--or Harry--in his will.
The interesting questions at this point involve Mrs. Black's will. Would she have left things to Sirius as her only surviving child, despite her disapproval of his lifestyle and (for want of a better term) "political leanings"? If she did leave things to someone else, who might that someone be--Narcissa or Bella? If Sirius left a legal will, would it override Mrs. Black's will, considering that Sirius died a convicted murderer?
This brings me to another point: Did Dumbledore tell Fudge about Sirius, Wormtail, and Voldemort, and was he able to clear Sirius of the charges and restore his good reputation? I'm wondering whether--if that has happened--we might see Harry at some sort of memorial for Sirius. I think this would mean a lot to Harry.
Solitaire
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 2, 2005 11:59 am (#267 of 365)
Solitaire, if Dumbledore told Fudge the truth about what happened on 31 October 1981 and about the subsequent revelation about Pettigrew's treachery. I think that Dumbledore did so after Fudge acknowledged Voldemort's return. Because, had Fudge been aware of the subversion if the Aurors office and of Dumbledore's shielding of Sirius. Fudge could have been justified in levellng charges serious enough to remove Dumbledore from the political field who by this time Fudge and Umbridge view as a threat to theirability to maintain their grip on power.
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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 2:58 pm (#268 of 365)
I agree, Nathan, that if it happened at all, it would have had to be AFTER the battle and Fudge's sighting of Voldemort. It couldn't have happened at any other time for precisely the reasons you cite. I only hope that, if it did happen, Fudge figures out a way to acknowledge it and to restore Sirius's good name without harming the good reputations of others. I honestly do believe that it is important to Harry to restore Sirius's reputation in the WW at large. I hope it can be accomplished.
Solitaire
Edit: It will be important, too, for the WW to know that Peter Pettigrew is alive and well--and serving Voldemort--and that he is an animagus whose form takes a rat--with, perhaps(?), a silver paw.
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Gina R Snape - Jan 2, 2005 7:47 pm (#269 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Oh, I hope they don't give Sirius Black a posthumous Order of Merlin for being at the battle against the DEs at the Ministry. Snape would positively have kittens.
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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 8:01 pm (#270 of 365)
Nah ... bats or vipers, perhaps. Probably not kittens.
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Ydnam96 - Jan 2, 2005 9:23 pm (#271 of 365)
Kittens would be funny though. Wouldn't it be great if Snape's patronus was a kitty cat? Haha, but that's for another thread...
So I've wondered about this whole Will thing. Do all cultures in the modern world use wills? I ask because we haven't had a precedent in the Wizarding World for Wills and I wonder if they just don't use them? The WW seems to be modeled sort of after a mix of medival and modern cultures, I'm not sure when western culture started using wills. Maybe Wizards just pass their stuff down to their next of kin...with no will.
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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 10:22 pm (#272 of 365)
I believe the practice of inheritance and leaving a last will and testament is an ancient one. Consider the whole concept of lineage in royal families. Thrones are generally passed down through the eldest son, unless something (death or abdication, usually) intervenes to change that lineage.
If you look at the "royal line-up" currently in place for the British throne--and someone more up on this than I am would have to explain it--I believe there is a certain "pecking order" that must be followed. In simple terms, the farther down the line you are, the more people have to drop over a cliff or fall down a well before the crown lands on YOUR head.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Wizarding World--particularly in the very old pureblood Wizarding families--is similar in how property and and position are passed on. Someone like Malfoy, for instance, would need a will to keep his property safe for Draco, in the event that something happens to him (as it has).
Regarding modern cultures and wills: If a person dies intestate (meaning they have left no will), all kinds of problems can ensue. This happened in my family--with my grandmother, who refused to make a will--and more than half the estate was eaten up by attorneys and legal fees. Many years ago, as a child, a friend of mine watched legal fees eat up a multimillion dollar estate--he was too young to do anything about it--all because his parents did not keep their wills up-to-date.
Having seen the political antics of Umbridge and Fudge in OotP, I have no doubt that the Wizarding World has its own version of corrupt legal and financial types who would be perfectly capable of swindling someone out of his or her inheritance--don't you agree?
Solitaire
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TomProffitt - Jan 3, 2005 11:17 am (#273 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
"Having seen the political antics of Umbridge and Fudge in OotP, I have no doubt that the Wizarding World has its own version of corrupt legal and financial types who would be perfectly capable of swindling someone out of his or her inheritance--don't you agree?" --- Solitaire
I certainly agree, Solitaire, but I have always assumed that all members of the Order of the Phoenix have wills. The US Military all but forces its soldiers to make out wills before they head overseas. I'm sure that any organization with Albus Dumbledore at the top, and with high casualty rates, would make certain all of its people had provided wills.
I have trouble believing that people responsible enough to join the Order would ignore other members when told of the importance of writing a will. Even those hotheaded Marauders.
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Solitaire - Jan 3, 2005 12:07 pm (#274 of 365)
I agree, Tom. Dumbledore is very attentive to such details, and I can't imagine him not paying attention to such an important thing as a will--or allowing those in the Order, especially those who have children to provide for, not to have one.
Solitaire
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Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 4, 2005 12:40 pm (#275 of 365)
what would drive Snape insane is if Harry got an Order of merlin award for alerting the world of Big Evils return and Sirius Black getting cleared of all charges as well as a post mordum order of merlin
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Joanne R. Reid - Jan 5, 2005 12:30 pm (#276 of 365)
I'm still hung up on the problem of Kreacher. Regardless of who ultimately inherits/owns/possess 12GP, Kreacher exists without a master/mistress. Further, until the estate is settled, the only one who can order him to do anything is the Portrait.
One way out of this dilemma would be to have Kreacher die of semi-natural causes. Kreacher knows that Sirius is the last of the Blacks, even though he's been disowned, is a blood-traitor, etc. Further, Kreacher is very old for a house elf. If he died in a fit of melancholy, the problem disappears. I realize that this is an old writer's trick, but it's still a good one.
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Maddest Dragon - Jan 7, 2005 2:02 pm (#277 of 365)
Hmmm.... Kreacher being ordered around by the Portrait? I can see that happening. Sounds like something right out of a horror movie. I don't think Kreacher's going to die--at least, not before he's caused a good deal of trouble and thickened the plot quiet a bit.
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Gina R Snape - Jan 7, 2005 2:30 pm (#278 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, Kreacher was basically being ordered around by the portrait until Sirius' return. But maybe that was because Sirius was still alive, so Kreacher was bound to the house. Then again, did Kreacher know Sirius was still alive? Maybe he will stay put because he doesn't know Sirius is dead, until someone tells him.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 7, 2005 10:28 pm (#279 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I don't know who is going to inherit #12 Grimmauld Place but somebody had better feed Buckbeak or Kreacher is definitely "TOAST".
Mikie
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dizzy lizzy - Jan 8, 2005 12:35 am (#280 of 365)
There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Oh cripey's I forgot all about Buckbeak...
Lizzy
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haymoni - Jan 8, 2005 7:21 am (#281 of 365)
That's it!
Buckbeak took care of business and all that was left was Kreacher's head.
He will be added to the Wall of Fame and #12 will need a new house elf. Enter Dobby with (hic!) Winky in tow.
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Daisy Pennifold - Jan 8, 2005 7:32 am (#282 of 365)
Poor Buckbeak, I hope he isn't sick from eating Kreacher!
While we may have forgotten about Buckbeak, I'm sure that Lupin & Co. did not.
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Joanne R. Reid - Jan 8, 2005 12:02 pm (#283 of 365)
Here's a yucky thought: Buckbeak has been living on a diet of stoats and rats. How bad can House Elf taste? Argh! :-(
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Gina R Snape - Jan 8, 2005 8:56 pm (#284 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha. I love it!!!!!!!
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Solitaire - Jan 8, 2005 10:33 pm (#285 of 365)
I agree with Daisy. And Dumbledore surely remembers that Bucky is still around, as he mentions him to Harry at the end of OotP. I wouldn't doubt that he will have returned Bucky into Hagrid's care by the time the next school year begins. Hagrid can just stash him in the forest, and no one will be the wiser. We already know Draco is not a big fan of the Forbidden Forest, so I doubt he will go snooping about.
Solitaire
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Gina R Snape - Jan 8, 2005 11:16 pm (#286 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think this was discussed on another thread... But I'm not sure anyone but Hagrid, Sirius and maybe Harry could tell the difference between Buckbeak and any other hippogriff without close inspection. So I don't think living in the forest would even be that much of a risk. Plus, I doubt anyone is still looking for him anyway.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 9, 2005 12:27 am (#287 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Yeah, I think his executioner has bigger problems.
Mikie
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Solitaire - Jan 9, 2005 2:49 pm (#288 of 365)
In a way it almost makes sense to have Buckbeak around Hogwarts ... in case Harry needs to make a fast getaway and can't use his broom! We already know that he has allowed Harry and Hermione to fly on him. I wonder if we won't see him flying one or both of them out of a tight spot again in book 6 or 7.
I agree with Gina that no one else can probably tell him from any other hippogriff ... and I also agree that Macnair's mind is probably not on Buckbeak right now.
Solitaire
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Catherine - Jan 13, 2005 6:20 am (#289 of 365)
Canon Seeker
I'm all for Kreacher being swallowed up by Buckbeak, except I get the shivers thinking about the ear hair. ICK. Buckbeak may eat stoats and rats (and in the movie, bats), but he may yet have standards.
I do wonder about the ownership of 12 Grimmauld Place. I can imagine Sirius caring enough about Harry to leave him property, but I can't imagine that Sirius would think it was good to leave the house to Harry. Sirius hated 12 GP as a teen enough to run away and be blasted off of the tapestry; he hated returning there as an escaped convict, and he hated having to stay inside 12 GP indefinitely.
Ownership of the house would be a huge "white elephant" for Harry, I would think. Yes, it would be a generous gesture to give him the house, but is this a gift that Harry would want? It would remind him of Sirius, and how unhappy Sirius was living there. He would be, unless Buckbeak gobbles him up, confronted with Kreacher, who betrayed Sirius, and whose cooperation with Death Eaters caused many adults and children to meet with harm at the MoM. It would cost a huge amount of gold to maintain properly, and it would be impossible to give the house away or sell it because it was from Sirius, after all.
This is one of those times that I hope Harry doesn't get a "gift." I'd personally rather see 12 GP go into trust for the Order, or for the Weasleys to inherit it. If anyone can wage war on that house, and win, it is Molly Weasley.
Now, as for an inheritance from Sirius, I'd love for that Flying Motorbike to make its way into Harry's possession....
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Solitaire - Jan 15, 2005 4:31 am (#290 of 365)
I agree, Catherine. I also think the Motorcycle may become Harry's.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 15, 2005 5:34 pm (#291 of 365)
I wouldn't mind seeing hagrid getting Sirius Blacks old motorcycle so he can try and capture that elusive flying car that has been chasing Fluffy around the forbidden forest
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GryffEndora - Jan 15, 2005 7:53 pm (#292 of 365)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
I think that Sirius definitely left instructions in the case of his death. It make sense that he would leave #12GP to DD or the Order. Sirius didn't like the house, and would never think to shackle it to Harry. I would like to see Sirius appoint Lupin Harry's new guardian and heir the the Black family fortune.
I don't think Narcissa, Lucius or Bella would care about #12, after all they have no idea that it is the headquarters of the Order, they just know that Kreacher knows about the Order from Sirius.
I think Sirius knows Harry has plenty of money and that Umbrage has made it nearly impossible for Lupin to get employment and may just leave the money to his last living best friend in need.
And, I must say, I love the thought of Harry inheriting the flying motorbike.
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Gina R Snape - Jan 15, 2005 8:27 pm (#293 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I never thought about Sirius appointing a new godfather in the event of his demise. Is that sort of thing possible?
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Solitaire - Jan 15, 2005 9:01 pm (#294 of 365)
I tend to agree with you, GryffEndora. Sirius hated the grim old place, and I find it hard to believe he would want Harry living there without him.
Solitaire
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Gina R Snape - Jan 15, 2005 10:04 pm (#295 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Aaaww, Solitaire. I like your new icon. Cute!
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Maddest Dragon - Jan 19, 2005 1:23 am (#296 of 365)
Could Sirius appoint a new godfather? Probably not with the title of godfather--but, as Harry's guardian, I would think it would be up to him to name a new guardian for Harry in the event of his own demise. But it seems that the WW considers the Dursleys Harry's guardians--it's expected that Uncle Vernon or Aunt Petunia will sign his Hogsmeade permission form at the beginning of his third year. In any case, it doesn't seem that Sirius's guardianship of Harry was recognized, at least not by the authorities who considered him a dangerous criminal.
Furthermore, would Harry even need a guardian at this point? In England, sixteen is old enough to leave school, work full time, and leave home. The WW seems even less concerned than the Muggle world about teenagers' abilities to care for themselves--Harry is completely on his own the three weeks he spends at the Leaky Cauldron in PoA; Hogwarts students have very little supervision outside of class; Harry is trusted to manage his entire inheritance on his own at the age of eleven. Just a year short of coming of age, the only real reason Harry would need a guardian would be if his status as a minor prevented him from managing his finances or his property or signing contracts and so on, needing someone to do it for him. But it doesn't seem like such a thing would be needed if he's been allowed to manage his money since he was eleven, with no one so much as attempting to do it for him.
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Brianna Wing - Feb 2, 2005 7:12 pm (#297 of 365)
People have been talking about who is inheriting other things of Sirius but I' going back to 12 Grimauld Place.
I'm sorry if someone already said this but I havn't read through all the posts on this thread.
I think the question we should be concentrating on is how monitered is the viel. Can the MoM tell when someone enters the veil? How does the veil work? If the MoM can't tell that someone has entered the veil then they don't know Sirius is dead. Therefore only the people who were there know he is 'dead'. If the MoM thinks he is still alive then they won't give 12 Grimauld Place to anyone. They didn't give it to anyone when he was captured and they didn't give it to anyone when he escaped so why all of a sudden would they give it to someone? I that if the MoM doesn't know Sirius 'died' then 12 Grimauld Place is safe.
A question to chew on: Even if someone does inherit 12 Grimauld Place can they find it since Dumbledore is the secret keeper? Does the MoM keep track of secret keepers somehow?
"Pain is weakness leaving the body."
Brianna Wing
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Phelim Mcintyre - Feb 3, 2005 1:18 am (#298 of 365)
Would the MoM or Dumbledore arrange another guardian for Harry? He will now be sixteen at the start of the next book and not legally (as far as the Muggle world is concerned) need one - especially as he has the Dursleys. This is why the gang met Harry at the end of the OoP. This means that I don't expect Sirius to have arranged for another godfather, partly because it is the parents right to arrange this. But knowing the Muggle World has the following pattern - 2 godfathers and a godmother for a boy - I expect us to meet the other godparents if they are alive (possible Dumbledore).
I expect that when the truth about Sirius Black is released (if they take Kingsly Shacklebolt's word) that Narcissa Malfoy will cause trouble for Harry. After all that's what the family is for.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 3, 2005 10:25 am (#299 of 365)
I that if the MoM doesn't know Sirius 'died' then 12 Grimauld Place is safe. --Brianna Wing
That is a good point. Is it in the Order's interest to have Sirius declared legally dead? I suppose it would depend on who the heir to the house is.
Another point which might have been discussed but only just occured to me (I know Kreacher has been a point of interest), is if Kreacher goes to serve Narcissa now that Sirius is dead he probably can't reveal any information that Sirius forbid him to discuss, but we know he is susceptable to Legilimency because Dumbledore said he used that to discover what Kreacher had been up to. If Voldemort were to interrogate Kreacher personally, he would be able to get information via Legilimency even if Kreacher was unable to say anything.
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Tomoé - Feb 3, 2005 11:51 am (#300 of 365)
Back in business
Phelim Mcintyre -> But knowing the Muggle World has the following pattern - 2 godfathers and a godmother for a boy - I expect us to meet the other godparents if they are alive (possible Dumbledore).
Jo have been quite plain: "When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend." I don't see much room for a second Godfather into the picture.
Edit: The quote come from Edinburgh Book Festival.
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Back in business
When Moody brought the DE in, they were still suspect, not convicted yet. It doesn't seem it make much difference in Crouch Sr's head, but in Moody's it was a difference. When convicted or with a trial in process, Moddy didn't mind them to be in compagny of Dementors, though. Or maybe he though death was to good a fate for them ...
I'll leave the subject here before it turns to be another Marietta Edgecombe.
I don't think Ron is anything close to get 12 Grimmauld Place, Arthur is not yet dead, sure he'll get the priority in heirdom over his children. If you meant through Molly, she's Sirius's cousin by marriage. Does it matter on which side of the familly? cousin by marriage, that means she have not commun blood with the black famiy, does it matter?
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kabloink! - Dec 16, 2004 9:06 am (#252 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
I was thinking if Sirius had left a will between the time he left Azkaban and the time he died, perhaps he would leave it to Ron. It is a bit far fetched, but ROn is family (albeit distant), he's Harry's best friend, and in all honesty, he doesn't have much to start his life with outside of Hogwarts. Granted, we don't know how that might change now that VOldemort is in the open. It was just an idea that came into my head awhile ago that I had thought I might vocalize.
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hells456 - Dec 16, 2004 4:39 pm (#253 of 365)
I don't understand why people think Kreacher staying locked in 12GP is bad or cruel. Kreacher loves the house and its contents, that why he was so upset over the Order being there and them clearing stuff out. It was because of his strong loyaty and family values (even if we think they're misguided) that he tried to protect the house and contents by going to Narcissa, another Black, and then only when ordered out by Sirius. I also got the impression that most house elves were essentially shut in and did not go out much although I could be wrong. I think all he wants is to live in the House of Black as he has always done until he dies and gets his head on a wall. I think he would rather die than have to go and serve a different family (especially if they are like the Weasleys).
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Ydnam96 - Dec 17, 2004 4:22 am (#254 of 365)
I definetly did not mean to offend anyone. I was simply trying to say I thought killing Kreacher was quite mean for what he did and that keeping him alive was a more humaine way of going about things. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 17, 2004 5:24 am (#255 of 365)
well with sirius dead Kreacher is allowed to leak as much information as he wants to Voldemort including the spy in the death eater ranks Snape so the order is going to have to do something about him if he is now free.
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hells456 - Dec 17, 2004 6:29 am (#256 of 365)
Is he allowed to leak information? I took it that he was tied to the Black family, he reamained loyal to Mrs Black although she had been dead for years. He didn't go to Narcissa for LV's benefit, but because of loyalty to the Blacks. From his point of view Sirius is the disowned blood traitor (and a murderer to boot) that was fouling and plundering the house of his masters.
I don't think he is free, he is still enslaved to wizardkind, he just needs new masters/relocating. I do see your point though that he may be able to leak secrets to the other side, but I don't think that is his primary goal. If it was he wouldn't have waited until told to get out by Sirius, he could have done a Dobby and gone to Narcissa earlier. Once he'd seen her he was merely following her orders as she was a Black (and a better one than Sirius).
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Tomoé - Dec 17, 2004 4:39 pm (#257 of 365)
Back in business
hells456, I don't think Kreacher staying locked in 12GP is bad or cruel as long as he can do his house-elf duties, but I do think locking Kreacher in his den (that couldn't have more than 1 squared meter, 10 squared feet) with no one to take care of is cruel.
We know the house-elves are pushed to take care of wizards (either by their nature or by the old charm the wizards set on them, it doesn't matter which), we know even Dobby don't want more than one day off a week. They like to take care of wizards, they like to do a good job, that's make them feel useful and happy. I just can't see Dumbledore allowing Kreacher to do against his nature. He would be more likely to hire Kreacher at Hogwarts.
Now, would locking Kreacher be of any use? Well, I'm not sure about it, house-elves can apparate in Hogwarts, maybe there no spell to prevent Kreacher to disapparate to anywhere else, not if no Black to him to stay.
I'm sorry if my dry, cynical type of humour hurted anyone, and I apology for the bad mood that it set.
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Solitaire - Dec 17, 2004 8:45 pm (#258 of 365)
First, Tomoé, I do not see anything wrong in what you have said. I think it is fair to discuss Kreacher and what will happen to him. He was a key player in the events that resulted in Sirius's death, so people are bound to have strong feelings about him.
I don't know why people can't express different opinions without others feeling they are being cruel, etc. These are fictional characters. I would hate to see this discussion curtailed like the Marietta discussion. Everybody loses when that happens.
Getting back to some comments I've read here ...
I think the discussion of Dobby vs. Kreacher as far as the quality of their House-elf performance is fascinating. To be sure, Kreacher followed the "letter of the law" for House-elves better than Dobby. However, Dobby seems to have a more highly developed social conscience and was willing to take action to save the life of someone he respected, even though that person was not a member of his "family" or household.
When I consider Dobby's actions in CoS, this is how I see it. Dobby remembers (or has been told) how things were before Voldemort was vaporized, and even though they may not be great for him, they are better than they were. Dobby knows there is a plot to make terrible things happen at Hogwarts, and he fears for Harry. This could be an altruistic fear, but Dobby says that Harry is too important--leading me to believe he knows Harry's place in the overall scheme of things in the Wizarding World (which will undoubtedly affect Dobby himself).
I suppose Dobby's actions can be seen as having a social conscience ... or they can be seen as affection and esteem for Harry ... or they can be seen as fear for his own neck. The latter seems the least likely, but it does need to be considered.
Anyway, Dobby defies his family and acts in a manner that seems to indicate concern and compassion not for his family but for his fellow magical beings in general. I doubt Kreacher would ever do this. He prefers to just serve his own family--those among them that he can respect--and let the rest of the world fall into a hole somewhere. I suppose it can be argued that this makes Kreacher the more obedient House-elf and Dobby the troublemaker.
I guess it depends on one's point of view ... but if all House-elves are enslaved to masters like the Malfoys, it seems that there is little hope of them developing a sense of ethics if it does not come from within, as Dobby's seems to do. **putting up dungbomb shield**
Solitaire
Edit: This seems to be more about House-elves and probably should be on the House-elf thread ... but Kreacher is definitely a concern where the future of GP is discussed.
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kabloink! - Dec 20, 2004 6:15 am (#259 of 365)
Optician's Assistant
I'm sorry if I made anyone feel like they had offended me. It wasn't that at all. IT just seemed as though the topic was heading more toward ethics than anything else, and I simply did not want anyone to end up hurt or offended. Again, I apologize if I offended anyone for the comment that I made.
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Gina R Snape - Dec 20, 2004 1:34 pm (#260 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I rather suspect Kreacher only claims to want to be put on the wall with his relatives because it is a horrible and shocking thing to say. When push comes to shove, he might just say "Oh, I'll serve the Weasleys, thank you please." and grumble about it for the remainder of his years. He seems to take pleasure in misery. But he did not seem suicidal to me.
I am really enamoured by this Edwardian 'fee tail' idea and I think it is one of the most plausible of possibilities. This would leave either Mr. Weasley or Draco Malfoy as the next heir. And so, I could see Draco taking great pleasure in taking the house from Harry, but at the same time talking down how disgusting the wretched house is--and blame Harry and 'those filthy mudbloods and blood traitors' for its condition.
On the other hand, I'm not so sure how Mrs. Weasley would feel about leaving the Burrow. That home expresses so much of what the Weasleys are about. A decayed miserable old mansion might simply be too foreign a concept for her for permanent living.
If Sirius had a will, I think now he would either leave the house to Lupin or Harry if he could. And I rather think DD must have ordered him to create a will if Sirius didn't think to do it himself.
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mike miller - Dec 21, 2004 12:45 pm (#261 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Sorry to divert away from the discussion of Kreacher, but I must officially change my prediction regarding Harry inheriting #12 GP. I think Sirius did leave a will and it will surrender #12 GP to Dumbledore to use as he sees fit and until it can no longer serve the Order. It may then be handed over to Tonks or even Narcissa, by then I think it will be a moot point.
I'm changing my opinion because I now believe that Spinners End is truly Sirius's home prior to being sent to Azkaban. It is this home that Harry will inherit in chapter two of HBP. Harry will leave #4 PD before his birthday (nullifying the protection he recieves there) to attend the reading of the will and his surprise 16th birthday party. I have posted more on the HBP Chapters thread.
This summer and next will require much more of Harry than sitting around with the Dursleys; and, with the war escalating there may be no truly safe place left for Harry.
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Fawkes Egg - Dec 26, 2004 4:50 am (#262 of 365)
Lost bird caught in mid-migration, far away to a foreign land. -- Feel It Turn, by Great Big Sea.
OK, this probably isn't the right thread, but why is there this pervasive assumption (not just you, mike) that Harry's blood protection is dependent on him spending his birthday at the Dursleys'? Dumbledore's precise words were, "You need only return there once a year,...".
That says nothing about what dates he need to spend there.
I do agree with the idea of Harry leaving the Dursley's early being somehow tied to his inheritance from Sirius. And I think Sirius may have left him one or other of his properties. If that was 12GP, I could see the remaining Blacks contesting it though.
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TomProffitt - Dec 26, 2004 7:27 am (#263 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
"OK, this probably isn't the right thread, but why is there this pervasive assumption ... that Harry's blood protection is dependent on him spending his birthday at the Dursleys'?" --- Fawkes Egg
The assumption lies with trying to find something in common between the five books so far. It is asking the question "What do Harry's stays at Privet Drive have in common thus far?" The answer seems to be, "He doesn't leave until after his birthday." Dumbledore not only says "You need only return there once a year ... " he also says, "A place you can call home."
That is where the assumption comes from. I don't think there are any other clues. It's not much to go on, but it does have some validity to it, I think.
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mike miller - Dec 26, 2004 10:50 am (#264 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Well said Tom! There isn't much to go on.
Fawkes Egg - I think there have been 2 clues as to what counts in calling #4 PD "home". Home is where your family lives. The 2 clues about family that JKR has given us is Harry being at #4 PD on his birthday and recieving Christmas gifts, horrible as they may be.
As I've said before, the protection was set up for infant Harry and has served him well for 15 years. I think we'll see a change in HBP. If Harry leaves #4 PD before his birthday (shortest stay) then I think it will signify the end of the protection he recieves there. Other things are becoming more important than having a "safe house" for Harry to hide in for a couple of months each year.
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Magical Me - Jan 2, 2005 5:07 am (#265 of 365)
Does anyone think that when the Potters made Sirius Harry's godfather, he may have (way back then) made out a Will leaving everything to either James or Harry?
After all, those were dark times and members of the original Order of the Phoenix were dropping like flies. It only makes sense that Sirius would have contemplated the possibility of his death back then (even though he was young and brash). Given how he feels about his blood relatives, I can imagine him being positively gleeful about signing a document leaving everything he owns to anyone BUT his relatives.
What I don't understand so well, is why SIrius' mother didn't leave Grimmauld Place to someone else (Narcissa?) in HER Will.
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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 11:28 am (#266 of 365)
Unless Sirius was required to make a Last Will and Testament in Azkaban--or an Order member had the legal power to make one for him while he was at 12GP--I don't see how an escaped prisoner in hiding from the law would be able to have a legal will made.
The idea of Sirius having made a will before the Potters died makes more sense, as I believe Sirius felt he would probably be killed by Voldemort in his quest to find the Potters. If Sirius was willing to die for them, it makes sense that he would name them--or Harry--in his will.
The interesting questions at this point involve Mrs. Black's will. Would she have left things to Sirius as her only surviving child, despite her disapproval of his lifestyle and (for want of a better term) "political leanings"? If she did leave things to someone else, who might that someone be--Narcissa or Bella? If Sirius left a legal will, would it override Mrs. Black's will, considering that Sirius died a convicted murderer?
This brings me to another point: Did Dumbledore tell Fudge about Sirius, Wormtail, and Voldemort, and was he able to clear Sirius of the charges and restore his good reputation? I'm wondering whether--if that has happened--we might see Harry at some sort of memorial for Sirius. I think this would mean a lot to Harry.
Solitaire
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 2, 2005 11:59 am (#267 of 365)
Solitaire, if Dumbledore told Fudge the truth about what happened on 31 October 1981 and about the subsequent revelation about Pettigrew's treachery. I think that Dumbledore did so after Fudge acknowledged Voldemort's return. Because, had Fudge been aware of the subversion if the Aurors office and of Dumbledore's shielding of Sirius. Fudge could have been justified in levellng charges serious enough to remove Dumbledore from the political field who by this time Fudge and Umbridge view as a threat to theirability to maintain their grip on power.
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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 2:58 pm (#268 of 365)
I agree, Nathan, that if it happened at all, it would have had to be AFTER the battle and Fudge's sighting of Voldemort. It couldn't have happened at any other time for precisely the reasons you cite. I only hope that, if it did happen, Fudge figures out a way to acknowledge it and to restore Sirius's good name without harming the good reputations of others. I honestly do believe that it is important to Harry to restore Sirius's reputation in the WW at large. I hope it can be accomplished.
Solitaire
Edit: It will be important, too, for the WW to know that Peter Pettigrew is alive and well--and serving Voldemort--and that he is an animagus whose form takes a rat--with, perhaps(?), a silver paw.
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Gina R Snape - Jan 2, 2005 7:47 pm (#269 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Oh, I hope they don't give Sirius Black a posthumous Order of Merlin for being at the battle against the DEs at the Ministry. Snape would positively have kittens.
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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 8:01 pm (#270 of 365)
Nah ... bats or vipers, perhaps. Probably not kittens.
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Ydnam96 - Jan 2, 2005 9:23 pm (#271 of 365)
Kittens would be funny though. Wouldn't it be great if Snape's patronus was a kitty cat? Haha, but that's for another thread...
So I've wondered about this whole Will thing. Do all cultures in the modern world use wills? I ask because we haven't had a precedent in the Wizarding World for Wills and I wonder if they just don't use them? The WW seems to be modeled sort of after a mix of medival and modern cultures, I'm not sure when western culture started using wills. Maybe Wizards just pass their stuff down to their next of kin...with no will.
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Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 10:22 pm (#272 of 365)
I believe the practice of inheritance and leaving a last will and testament is an ancient one. Consider the whole concept of lineage in royal families. Thrones are generally passed down through the eldest son, unless something (death or abdication, usually) intervenes to change that lineage.
If you look at the "royal line-up" currently in place for the British throne--and someone more up on this than I am would have to explain it--I believe there is a certain "pecking order" that must be followed. In simple terms, the farther down the line you are, the more people have to drop over a cliff or fall down a well before the crown lands on YOUR head.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Wizarding World--particularly in the very old pureblood Wizarding families--is similar in how property and and position are passed on. Someone like Malfoy, for instance, would need a will to keep his property safe for Draco, in the event that something happens to him (as it has).
Regarding modern cultures and wills: If a person dies intestate (meaning they have left no will), all kinds of problems can ensue. This happened in my family--with my grandmother, who refused to make a will--and more than half the estate was eaten up by attorneys and legal fees. Many years ago, as a child, a friend of mine watched legal fees eat up a multimillion dollar estate--he was too young to do anything about it--all because his parents did not keep their wills up-to-date.
Having seen the political antics of Umbridge and Fudge in OotP, I have no doubt that the Wizarding World has its own version of corrupt legal and financial types who would be perfectly capable of swindling someone out of his or her inheritance--don't you agree?
Solitaire
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TomProffitt - Jan 3, 2005 11:17 am (#273 of 365)
Bullheaded empiricist
"Having seen the political antics of Umbridge and Fudge in OotP, I have no doubt that the Wizarding World has its own version of corrupt legal and financial types who would be perfectly capable of swindling someone out of his or her inheritance--don't you agree?" --- Solitaire
I certainly agree, Solitaire, but I have always assumed that all members of the Order of the Phoenix have wills. The US Military all but forces its soldiers to make out wills before they head overseas. I'm sure that any organization with Albus Dumbledore at the top, and with high casualty rates, would make certain all of its people had provided wills.
I have trouble believing that people responsible enough to join the Order would ignore other members when told of the importance of writing a will. Even those hotheaded Marauders.
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Solitaire - Jan 3, 2005 12:07 pm (#274 of 365)
I agree, Tom. Dumbledore is very attentive to such details, and I can't imagine him not paying attention to such an important thing as a will--or allowing those in the Order, especially those who have children to provide for, not to have one.
Solitaire
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Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 4, 2005 12:40 pm (#275 of 365)
what would drive Snape insane is if Harry got an Order of merlin award for alerting the world of Big Evils return and Sirius Black getting cleared of all charges as well as a post mordum order of merlin
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Joanne R. Reid - Jan 5, 2005 12:30 pm (#276 of 365)
I'm still hung up on the problem of Kreacher. Regardless of who ultimately inherits/owns/possess 12GP, Kreacher exists without a master/mistress. Further, until the estate is settled, the only one who can order him to do anything is the Portrait.
One way out of this dilemma would be to have Kreacher die of semi-natural causes. Kreacher knows that Sirius is the last of the Blacks, even though he's been disowned, is a blood-traitor, etc. Further, Kreacher is very old for a house elf. If he died in a fit of melancholy, the problem disappears. I realize that this is an old writer's trick, but it's still a good one.
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Maddest Dragon - Jan 7, 2005 2:02 pm (#277 of 365)
Hmmm.... Kreacher being ordered around by the Portrait? I can see that happening. Sounds like something right out of a horror movie. I don't think Kreacher's going to die--at least, not before he's caused a good deal of trouble and thickened the plot quiet a bit.
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Gina R Snape - Jan 7, 2005 2:30 pm (#278 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, Kreacher was basically being ordered around by the portrait until Sirius' return. But maybe that was because Sirius was still alive, so Kreacher was bound to the house. Then again, did Kreacher know Sirius was still alive? Maybe he will stay put because he doesn't know Sirius is dead, until someone tells him.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 7, 2005 10:28 pm (#279 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I don't know who is going to inherit #12 Grimmauld Place but somebody had better feed Buckbeak or Kreacher is definitely "TOAST".
Mikie
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dizzy lizzy - Jan 8, 2005 12:35 am (#280 of 365)
There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Oh cripey's I forgot all about Buckbeak...
Lizzy
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haymoni - Jan 8, 2005 7:21 am (#281 of 365)
That's it!
Buckbeak took care of business and all that was left was Kreacher's head.
He will be added to the Wall of Fame and #12 will need a new house elf. Enter Dobby with (hic!) Winky in tow.
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Daisy Pennifold - Jan 8, 2005 7:32 am (#282 of 365)
Poor Buckbeak, I hope he isn't sick from eating Kreacher!
While we may have forgotten about Buckbeak, I'm sure that Lupin & Co. did not.
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Joanne R. Reid - Jan 8, 2005 12:02 pm (#283 of 365)
Here's a yucky thought: Buckbeak has been living on a diet of stoats and rats. How bad can House Elf taste? Argh! :-(
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Gina R Snape - Jan 8, 2005 8:56 pm (#284 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha. I love it!!!!!!!
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Solitaire - Jan 8, 2005 10:33 pm (#285 of 365)
I agree with Daisy. And Dumbledore surely remembers that Bucky is still around, as he mentions him to Harry at the end of OotP. I wouldn't doubt that he will have returned Bucky into Hagrid's care by the time the next school year begins. Hagrid can just stash him in the forest, and no one will be the wiser. We already know Draco is not a big fan of the Forbidden Forest, so I doubt he will go snooping about.
Solitaire
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Gina R Snape - Jan 8, 2005 11:16 pm (#286 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think this was discussed on another thread... But I'm not sure anyone but Hagrid, Sirius and maybe Harry could tell the difference between Buckbeak and any other hippogriff without close inspection. So I don't think living in the forest would even be that much of a risk. Plus, I doubt anyone is still looking for him anyway.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 9, 2005 12:27 am (#287 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Yeah, I think his executioner has bigger problems.
Mikie
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Solitaire - Jan 9, 2005 2:49 pm (#288 of 365)
In a way it almost makes sense to have Buckbeak around Hogwarts ... in case Harry needs to make a fast getaway and can't use his broom! We already know that he has allowed Harry and Hermione to fly on him. I wonder if we won't see him flying one or both of them out of a tight spot again in book 6 or 7.
I agree with Gina that no one else can probably tell him from any other hippogriff ... and I also agree that Macnair's mind is probably not on Buckbeak right now.
Solitaire
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Catherine - Jan 13, 2005 6:20 am (#289 of 365)
Canon Seeker
I'm all for Kreacher being swallowed up by Buckbeak, except I get the shivers thinking about the ear hair. ICK. Buckbeak may eat stoats and rats (and in the movie, bats), but he may yet have standards.
I do wonder about the ownership of 12 Grimmauld Place. I can imagine Sirius caring enough about Harry to leave him property, but I can't imagine that Sirius would think it was good to leave the house to Harry. Sirius hated 12 GP as a teen enough to run away and be blasted off of the tapestry; he hated returning there as an escaped convict, and he hated having to stay inside 12 GP indefinitely.
Ownership of the house would be a huge "white elephant" for Harry, I would think. Yes, it would be a generous gesture to give him the house, but is this a gift that Harry would want? It would remind him of Sirius, and how unhappy Sirius was living there. He would be, unless Buckbeak gobbles him up, confronted with Kreacher, who betrayed Sirius, and whose cooperation with Death Eaters caused many adults and children to meet with harm at the MoM. It would cost a huge amount of gold to maintain properly, and it would be impossible to give the house away or sell it because it was from Sirius, after all.
This is one of those times that I hope Harry doesn't get a "gift." I'd personally rather see 12 GP go into trust for the Order, or for the Weasleys to inherit it. If anyone can wage war on that house, and win, it is Molly Weasley.
Now, as for an inheritance from Sirius, I'd love for that Flying Motorbike to make its way into Harry's possession....
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Solitaire - Jan 15, 2005 4:31 am (#290 of 365)
I agree, Catherine. I also think the Motorcycle may become Harry's.
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Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 15, 2005 5:34 pm (#291 of 365)
I wouldn't mind seeing hagrid getting Sirius Blacks old motorcycle so he can try and capture that elusive flying car that has been chasing Fluffy around the forbidden forest
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GryffEndora - Jan 15, 2005 7:53 pm (#292 of 365)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
I think that Sirius definitely left instructions in the case of his death. It make sense that he would leave #12GP to DD or the Order. Sirius didn't like the house, and would never think to shackle it to Harry. I would like to see Sirius appoint Lupin Harry's new guardian and heir the the Black family fortune.
I don't think Narcissa, Lucius or Bella would care about #12, after all they have no idea that it is the headquarters of the Order, they just know that Kreacher knows about the Order from Sirius.
I think Sirius knows Harry has plenty of money and that Umbrage has made it nearly impossible for Lupin to get employment and may just leave the money to his last living best friend in need.
And, I must say, I love the thought of Harry inheriting the flying motorbike.
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Gina R Snape - Jan 15, 2005 8:27 pm (#293 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I never thought about Sirius appointing a new godfather in the event of his demise. Is that sort of thing possible?
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Solitaire - Jan 15, 2005 9:01 pm (#294 of 365)
I tend to agree with you, GryffEndora. Sirius hated the grim old place, and I find it hard to believe he would want Harry living there without him.
Solitaire
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Gina R Snape - Jan 15, 2005 10:04 pm (#295 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Aaaww, Solitaire. I like your new icon. Cute!
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Maddest Dragon - Jan 19, 2005 1:23 am (#296 of 365)
Could Sirius appoint a new godfather? Probably not with the title of godfather--but, as Harry's guardian, I would think it would be up to him to name a new guardian for Harry in the event of his own demise. But it seems that the WW considers the Dursleys Harry's guardians--it's expected that Uncle Vernon or Aunt Petunia will sign his Hogsmeade permission form at the beginning of his third year. In any case, it doesn't seem that Sirius's guardianship of Harry was recognized, at least not by the authorities who considered him a dangerous criminal.
Furthermore, would Harry even need a guardian at this point? In England, sixteen is old enough to leave school, work full time, and leave home. The WW seems even less concerned than the Muggle world about teenagers' abilities to care for themselves--Harry is completely on his own the three weeks he spends at the Leaky Cauldron in PoA; Hogwarts students have very little supervision outside of class; Harry is trusted to manage his entire inheritance on his own at the age of eleven. Just a year short of coming of age, the only real reason Harry would need a guardian would be if his status as a minor prevented him from managing his finances or his property or signing contracts and so on, needing someone to do it for him. But it doesn't seem like such a thing would be needed if he's been allowed to manage his money since he was eleven, with no one so much as attempting to do it for him.
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Brianna Wing - Feb 2, 2005 7:12 pm (#297 of 365)
People have been talking about who is inheriting other things of Sirius but I' going back to 12 Grimauld Place.
I'm sorry if someone already said this but I havn't read through all the posts on this thread.
I think the question we should be concentrating on is how monitered is the viel. Can the MoM tell when someone enters the veil? How does the veil work? If the MoM can't tell that someone has entered the veil then they don't know Sirius is dead. Therefore only the people who were there know he is 'dead'. If the MoM thinks he is still alive then they won't give 12 Grimauld Place to anyone. They didn't give it to anyone when he was captured and they didn't give it to anyone when he escaped so why all of a sudden would they give it to someone? I that if the MoM doesn't know Sirius 'died' then 12 Grimauld Place is safe.
A question to chew on: Even if someone does inherit 12 Grimauld Place can they find it since Dumbledore is the secret keeper? Does the MoM keep track of secret keepers somehow?
"Pain is weakness leaving the body."
Brianna Wing
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Phelim Mcintyre - Feb 3, 2005 1:18 am (#298 of 365)
Would the MoM or Dumbledore arrange another guardian for Harry? He will now be sixteen at the start of the next book and not legally (as far as the Muggle world is concerned) need one - especially as he has the Dursleys. This is why the gang met Harry at the end of the OoP. This means that I don't expect Sirius to have arranged for another godfather, partly because it is the parents right to arrange this. But knowing the Muggle World has the following pattern - 2 godfathers and a godmother for a boy - I expect us to meet the other godparents if they are alive (possible Dumbledore).
I expect that when the truth about Sirius Black is released (if they take Kingsly Shacklebolt's word) that Narcissa Malfoy will cause trouble for Harry. After all that's what the family is for.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 3, 2005 10:25 am (#299 of 365)
I that if the MoM doesn't know Sirius 'died' then 12 Grimauld Place is safe. --Brianna Wing
That is a good point. Is it in the Order's interest to have Sirius declared legally dead? I suppose it would depend on who the heir to the house is.
Another point which might have been discussed but only just occured to me (I know Kreacher has been a point of interest), is if Kreacher goes to serve Narcissa now that Sirius is dead he probably can't reveal any information that Sirius forbid him to discuss, but we know he is susceptable to Legilimency because Dumbledore said he used that to discover what Kreacher had been up to. If Voldemort were to interrogate Kreacher personally, he would be able to get information via Legilimency even if Kreacher was unable to say anything.
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Tomoé - Feb 3, 2005 11:51 am (#300 of 365)
Back in business
Phelim Mcintyre -> But knowing the Muggle World has the following pattern - 2 godfathers and a godmother for a boy - I expect us to meet the other godparents if they are alive (possible Dumbledore).
Jo have been quite plain: "When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend." I don't see much room for a second Godfather into the picture.
Edit: The quote come from Edinburgh Book Festival.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Who's Going to Inherit 12 Grimmauld Place (Post 301 to 365)
Elanor Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:55 am
Brianna Wing - Feb 3, 2005 12:38 pm (#301 of 365)
"...if Kreacher goes to serve Narcissa now that Sirius is dead" -Mrs Brisbee
Wouldn't Kreacher stay with the house. I don't have the books with me but didn't Ron say something once about wishing he had enough money to move to a house that had a house elf not a ghoul?
Brianna Wing
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 3, 2005 1:25 pm (#302 of 365)
Ron said something about his mother wishing they had a house elf, I think.
But didn't Dobby say that house elves are bound to serve one family. Sirius said Kreacher was supposed to take orders from any Black family members, although Kreacher was ignoring orders from Tonks probably because she wasn't on the tapestry. I think the elf is bound to the family, not the house, and if say a family moved they could take their house elf with them.
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Eric Bailey - Feb 19, 2005 6:26 am (#303 of 365)
Perhaps the Order was legally able to use the House because Andromeda allowed it? Her daughter is part of the Order, after all.
With Sirius and Bella being either in jail or fugitives since the first war, Andromeda, as next in line after them, would likely have been in charge of any legal affairs involving the Black estate. Voldemort would have to win, outright, for Bella to be able to take control of the family, again. Otherwise, her remaining years are going to be as a fugitive or in prison. So, the Head of the Black family, at least legally in an acting sense, would now be Andromeda, and, once Bella's gone, she'll be the Head in every sense. It's not like Harry's hurting for money (His parents left him a fortune), so Sirius would have no reason to try to disinherit Andromeda.
So, ironically, the Heir of the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black, "Toujours Pur", would seem to be Nymphadora Tonks.
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Solitaire - Feb 19, 2005 12:51 pm (#304 of 365)
Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 2, page 14 (US ed.): "Dobby is a house-elf--bound to serve one house and one family forever ..."
Farther down the page ... A house-elf must be set free, sir. And the family will never set Dobby free ... Dobby will serve the family until he dies, sir ..."
It sounds like the house-elf is bound to the family and the house. Given the fact that mostly old, wealthy Wizarding families have house-elves, it seems logical to assume that these families live in large manors that remain in the family generation after generation. So it makes sense that the house-elf stays with the family in that particular house.
Dobby was freed, or he would still be in Malfoy Manor. It does not sound like the house-elf is free to just leave under any other circumstance. Kreacher is still at 12GP, and presumably he cannot leave due to knowing too much about the Order.
As for Andromeda inheriting the house ... we don't really know how Wizarding law works in this area of things. It is possible that regular laws of inheritance apply, and she would inherit as next of kin--assuming there isn't some other, more immediate Black we don't yet know about. It is also possible that a clause in the will of Sirius's mother might prevent her from inheriting ... or designate someone else as beneficiary. I suppose it is equally possible that no more immediate family members mean that the house will just sit there unoccupied by anyone but Kreacher--until he dies. What a happy thought.
Solitaire
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Amilia Smith - Feb 19, 2005 8:01 pm (#305 of 365)
I don't think Mrs. Black could have left a will. Otherwise, why would Sirius have inherited Grimmauld Place? He had been disowned, blasted off the tapestry (which seem to me the equivalent of having your name scratched out of the family Bible), and living with friends or on his own since he was a teenager.
Maybe none of the rest of the family wants the place? After all, they all just let it sit empty for the 12 years Sirius was in Azkaban. Or maybe they don't know how to get past all of the protections Sirius's father put in place. Either way, it could end up just as Solitaire suggested, sitting empty again, going to seed with nothing but Kreacher and Mrs. Black's portrait.
Mills.
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Joanne R. Reid - Feb 20, 2005 11:52 am (#306 of 365)
However, if that does happen, 12GP effectively disappears from time and space. Not only is 12GP unplottable, but it is also protected by DD. Nobody can detect the house unless told of its existence by DD.
Who can enter 12 GP right now? DD and the OotP plus Harry, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Fred and George. No Malfoy or anyone else will be able to find 12 GP if DD et. al. abandon it.
Kreacher can not tell anyone, because he is bound by the secret. He would spend his final days wandering about its halls, listening to the mad protrait.
Then, he will die and 12GP will lie abandoned, undetectable by either wizard or muggle until the enchantment dies or Earth is destroyed.
What a dark and horrible ending! :-((
Thanks,
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Solitaire - Feb 20, 2005 6:52 pm (#307 of 365)
Joanne, I confess that is the end I foresee for GP--unless someone gets rid of Kreacher. I can't see Harry living there with him. As for the Malfoys finding or not finding it ... Narcissa may know where it is, if she happened to visit it in her youth. She is, after all, a Black cousin, so it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that she may know. I just can't imagine her wanting it--unless she suspects there may be some Dark Arts artifacts there.
Then again, maybe Harry would love anyplace that is not 4PD and will happily move into GP. It just seems awfully depressing to me. I guess I'm projecting my feelings onto Harry ... I wouldn't want to live in the Grim Old Place.
Solitaire
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Gina R Snape - Feb 20, 2005 8:01 pm (#308 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think it's fair to say nobody wanted the house before, as it lay rotting for 12 years. But now that it's being used as the HQ for the Order, it may be seen as a more desirable property if for no other reason than to keep it from Dumbledore.
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Solitaire - Feb 20, 2005 11:22 pm (#309 of 365)
But do the Malfoys know it was being used by DD? If Kreacher was forbidden to tell anyone about the Order, then how would the Malfoys know anyone but Sirius had been staying there? I'm not disputing you ... I'm just wondering, because it seems there were some things he was forbidden to tell.
Solitaire
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Gina R Snape - Feb 20, 2005 11:34 pm (#310 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Yes, there were some things he was forbidden to tell. But they knew about the Order. They knew Sirius was alive, and they knew a few things about what DD was up to. DD briefly touches upon this in his big speech at the end of the book. I would quote it for you, but I've leant my book to the new security guard at my job who has been eating up all the books faster than I can bring them into work.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 21, 2005 7:03 am (#311 of 365)
Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 2, page 14 (US ed.): "Dobby is a house-elf--bound to serve one house and one family forever ..."
Farther down the page ... A house-elf must be set free, sir. And the family will never set Dobby free ... Dobby will serve the family until he dies, sir ..."
It sounds like the house-elf is bound to the family and the house. --Solitaire.
I stand corrected. So Kreacher will stay with the 12 Grimmauld Place, but he wont take orders from anyone there unless they are a Black (but not Tonks). Something will have to be done with Kreacher then if the Order wants to keep using the house as headquarters, because Kreacher can just leave to report anything to Narcissa.
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Detail Seeker - Feb 21, 2005 2:47 pm (#312 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
There is always a place for Kreacher at the wall....
Narcissa, though knowing, that the house GP12 exists and where it exists would not be able to enter because of Dumbeldore´s Fidelius Charm, so no use for her.
As no Ministry law enforcement person, who is not in the Order knows about the Fidelius, there is no danger, that the Malfoys would be able to enter the house, even if they where declared heirs.
"Father Black must have done some good protection charms. What a pity, you do not find your heirloom...."
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Solitaire - Feb 21, 2005 8:38 pm (#313 of 365)
Tonks's mother--like Bella and Narcissa--is a first cousin to Sirius. Tonks is not. If we are following the family line, she would be in about the same place as Draco ... except that her father is a Muggle-born where Lucius is not (so far as we know).
I suppose that if Lucius is also related in some way--Could Mrs. Black's family be related to the Malfoy family?--that might give Draco an edge over Tonks. You know, I have to say I think Kreacher would be just perfect to take care of Draco. YUCK! The two of them deserve each other. If only Dumbledore could obliviate Kreacher's memory ... Then again, if he did that, then Kreacher might be tolerable.
Solitaire
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Tomoé - Mar 1, 2005 9:39 pm (#314 of 365)
Back in business
Do the Malfoys know the Order is at 12GP?
How couldn't they know, it was Kreatcher who told them, even they should be able to put two and two together.
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Solitaire - Mar 2, 2005 8:19 am (#315 of 365)
But do they know where the house is, or even that it is at 12GP? I agree that it is probable that Narcissa, at least, has been there at some point during her life. Then again, maybe not, given the extent of the protections that were placed on it by Mr. Black, Sr. He might have kept even his own family away.
Solitaire
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els - Mar 2, 2005 12:04 pm (#316 of 365)
I thought that Kreacher was forbidden by Sirius to discuss any business about the Order. So when Sirius told him to "get out" at Christmas, Kreacher literally followed the order and went to the Malfoys. Kreacher only told them that Harry and Sirius were very close per the conversation with Dumbledore. I feel that the Malfoys already knew Sirius was in London and possibly using 12GP, which Kreacher's appearance would have affirmed. Now why they waited and didn't turn Sirius in, Voldemort possibly came up with the plan to use Sirius to get to Harry. And maybe the Ministry wouldn't be able to get to the house because of the protection. So I don't think the Malfoys knew that the Order's headquarters are at 12GP
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GryffEndora - Mar 2, 2005 12:49 pm (#317 of 365)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
I agree with you els, I think the Malfoys could figure out that Sirius was hiding out at 12GP because of Kreacher's sudden appearance and his knowing information about Harry & Sirius' relationship, but I'm sure Kreacher was unable to tell them that 12GP is Headquarters to the Order.
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Solitaire - Mar 2, 2005 9:08 pm (#318 of 365)
Dumbledore said that Kreacher could not give the Malfoys their whereabouts or tell them any of the Order's confidential plans that he had been forbidden to reveal. He could not disobey a direct order from Sirius. But he gave Narcissa information that was very valuable to Voldemort, yet seemed too trivial for Sirius to think of banning him from telling anyone.
I still have questions about how the Fidelius charm works, which means I'm not super clear on what the Malfoys may or may not have known ... because it seems the charm can alter what one is allowed to know. I'll be glad for a clearer explanation of the Fidelius charm ... hopefully!
Solitaire
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Eric Bailey - Mar 3, 2005 1:43 am (#319 of 365)
Well, with Sirius dead, and Bella a fugitive, everything goes to Andromeda. Ironically, the one who left the family is now it's acting Head, and once Bella is dead... So, Kreacher would now have to do whatever Nymphadora says, since she's Andromeda's daughter and heir. Of course, Andromeda would probably prefer to just put Kreacher to sleep.
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GryffEndora - Mar 3, 2005 4:17 pm (#320 of 365)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Bella has 2 sisters, Andromeda Tonks and Narcissa Malfoy. Andromeda left the family or was rejected from it. It's possible that Narcissa is the more likely heir, unless it is split between the two.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 3, 2005 4:26 pm (#321 of 365)
Bellatrix's name was to the left of Andromeda's on the Black family tapestry, correct? So she is the oldest, Andromeda next, and Narcissa the youngest. Since Sirius was able to inherit while in Azkaban, and take residence while a fugitive, I don't think we can discount Bellatrix from inheriting.
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Tomoé - Mar 3, 2005 7:18 pm (#322 of 365)
Back in business
But Bella did kill the legal heir herself, some more into legal stuff than I am said you can inherit a thing from a person you murdered. It does make sense.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 3, 2005 9:08 pm (#323 of 365)
If it is assumed that inheritance laws are parallel in both the Muggle and wizarding Even though Bella murdered Sirius she could inheit although, the possibility exists that as a fugitive she could be barred from inheriting because, there are laws in some places that do not allow for fugitives or those convicted of felonies to inherit. But if that is the case then Andromeda would be next in line because, in the absence of a will and testamentory statement from Mrs. Black I do not think the removal of Andromeda and her children from the tapestry would constitute sufficient evidence of Mrs. Black's wishes. Although I wonder if it is possible for her portrait to testify to her wishes.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 4, 2005 1:02 pm (#324 of 365)
But Bella did kill the legal heir herself, some more into legal stuff than I am said you can inherit a thing from a person you murdered. It does make sense.
*Smacks self on forehead** Oh, right. I forgot about that for some reason. Though this could mean the Black estate could remain unsettled for a long time, if conviction of murder is necessary to prevent Bellatrix from inheriting.
I don't think being blasted off the tapestry would stop Andromeda from inheriting, as it didn't prevent Sirius from getting 12 Grimmauld place.
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Detail Seeker - Mar 4, 2005 3:59 pm (#325 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
As far as I understand the situation, Sirius took the house, that nobody seems to have claimed for a longer time. So it seems, that neither Andromeda nor Narcissa were interested.
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mike miller - Mar 4, 2005 5:26 pm (#326 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
I agree with Detail Seeker on this current line of discussion. It would appear that the neighborhood had taken a turn for the worse, so those who could have made a claim did not. Sirius was able to take possesion and now with the help of DD it's almost a moot point. Everyone else who might want it, could never find it!
As to it's future ownership, I believe Sirius did leave a will. Contrary to my much earlier position of Harry inheriting #12 GP, I think Sirius will leave it to DD for as long as the Order requires it's use. At such time in the future when the Order is no longer in need it will be sold at auction to benefit St Mungo's or some other charity closer to Sirius's heart.
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Daisy Pennifold - Mar 4, 2005 6:18 pm (#327 of 365)
Would 12 GP even allow Tonks's dad, a muggle, in the house, or would it blast away Rocky Horror-style or chew him up or something?
I still stand by my earlier opinion that the Blacks (Sirius's mum and dad) would entail the estate away to a male heir. Draco is the nearest living male heir that we know of.
Not only does this make sense (to me at least), knowing what we know of the characters, it would make for a great story.
Draco has to reclaim some dignity in this next book - he has already ceased to be menacing to Harry. By reigning over 12 GP he will have something of Sirius's (he probably wouldn't be aware that Sirius hated the house).
He may even find something in the house that would be precious to Harry, and use it for blackmail purposes, etc. Or use information given him by Kreacher, whom can arguably be said to go with the house. (I know some people disagree with this, and I'm not sure about it myself). I personally think that Kreacher would divulge information about previous inhabitants to current inhabitants, without feeling any need to punish himself.
This is the only strong conviction I have ever had about any of the aspects of JK's world, and I would be SO proud if I am right!
Of course, I'm probably not. She's quite a devious gal.
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Phoenix song - Mar 4, 2005 9:15 pm (#328 of 365)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
"Would 12 GP even allow Tonks's dad, a muggle, in the house, or would it blast away Rocky Horror-style or chew him up or something?"
Daisy, I believe that Tonk's father was a Muggle-born, and not a Muggle. That would place him in the same category as Hermione. As far as we know the house didn't particularly object to Hermione, just Kreacher and Mrs. Black's portrait.
You have a good idea, though, about regular Muggles. I wonder if, say, Hermione's parents would be allowed to visit if Dumbledore insisted (for their own protection?) Of course, we did discuss quite a bit at one time whether Pet, Vernon and Dudley would have to come and live at #12 for their protection. It's such a riot to think about scrupulously clean Pet living at #12 Grimmauld Place. Can you imagine how scarred she would be after such an experience?
Barbie
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Eric Bailey - Mar 5, 2005 5:38 am (#329 of 365)
Well, the only Blacks left that we know of are the Tonks and Malfoy branches, and the Tonks branch would be next in line of succession as far as family matters are concerned. It doesn't really matter if Narcissa approves of Andromeda, or not. "She didn't want to be a Death Eater" probably wouldn't go over too well with the Ministry as a reason to have Andromeda disinherited, anyway. Narcissa is going to be too busy protecting the Malfoy assets from the Ministry to worry about the Black ones.
And, yeah, there's no reason Ted's muggleborn status would keep him out of the house, since Hermione was able to enter, as well as at least three "halfbloods", Harry, Remus, and Nymphadora.
As for Sirius, he was hiding in the House. It wasn't as though he announced to the Ministry that he was moving back in. We do know he used third parties to access his bank account.
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Catherine - Mar 5, 2005 6:34 am (#330 of 365)
Canon Seeker
Well, the only Blacks left that we know of are the Tonks and Malfoy branches, and the Tonks branch would be next in line of succession as far as family matters are concerned.
Why wouldn't the sisters have an equal share, if Sirius left no instructions to the contrary?
I just keep wondering if someone is going to pop up out of the woodwork to claim 12 GP that we don't expect.
EDIT: Where's that Loopy Lupin when you need him? He could probably straighten this out.
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Tomoé - Mar 5, 2005 1:13 pm (#331 of 365)
Back in business
Hum, good question, if only we knew what was Mrs Black's family name ...
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Catherine - Mar 5, 2005 1:50 pm (#332 of 365)
Canon Seeker
Wouldn't it be interesting if Mrs. Black's family name were Snape?
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Choices - Mar 5, 2005 7:36 pm (#333 of 365)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
YiKes, so that could be where she gets her lovable nature from.....the Snape side of the family.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 5, 2005 8:12 pm (#334 of 365)
A familial connection with Snape, would only increase Sirius hatred of Snape as well. In terms of the Black sisters receiving an equal share it is possible. As to the reason whn none of them showed any interest in the years following Mrs. Black's death. Sirius was still alive and any challenge to his right of inhheritance would probably have been fought by Dumbledore.
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Solitaire - Mar 5, 2005 9:28 pm (#335 of 365)
YiKes, so that could be where she gets her lovable nature from.....the Snape side of the family.
LOL Choices! I laughed so hard I spit on the screen and almost fell off my chair! Now, I have another suggestion (not nearly so funny) ... What if Mrs. Black's maiden name was Malfoy?
Solitaire
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Loopy Lupin - Mar 6, 2005 1:20 pm (#336 of 365)
Why wouldn't the sisters have an equal share, if Sirius left no instructions to the contrary? -- Catherine
That would be correct; the house should go to the sisters if Sirius left no will. Correct that is, assuming that the Wizarding World follows the common law of England with respect to the course of descent where no will is left, which Virginia, where I am licensed to practice law, generally does. Of course, I should point out that if Mama Black left no will, then under the same rules I'm looking at, the sisters should have had a share in the house to begin with. So, either the WW doesn't follow the typical rules or, for some strange reason, the property was left to Sirius outright. (Does Sirius mention anything about this?) I would also point out that, in modern times, adoptive children are generally granted the same privileges as natural born children. I don't think we've heard that Harry was "officially" adopted by Sirius, but it seems that James and Lily did "officially" name Sirius as Harry's Godfather. That may afford Harry some sort of standing even without a will from Sirius.
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hells456 - Mar 6, 2005 6:02 pm (#337 of 365)
Nathan Zimmermann "As to the reason whn none of them showed any interest in the years following Mrs. Black's death. Sirius was still alive and any challenge to his right of inhheritance would probably have been fought by Dumbledore."
DD thought he was a spy and a mass murderer who nearly got the hope of the wizarding world destroyed, I don't think he would have contested on Sirius's behalf. I agree that the sisters were not interested. Narcissa may be interested now though, especially if Lucius's imprisonment has resulted in the Malfoys assets being frozen or something like that. They might want a place to hide themselves.
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Choices - Mar 6, 2005 8:38 pm (#338 of 365)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I can't imagine Mrs. Black leaving the house to Sirius - she seems to have hated her son for being a blood traitor, and Sirius left home early because he did not get along with his parents and did not share their beliefs. He just got the house because he was the last of the Blacks. If he left a will, then Harry may inherit the house, but I think he would continue to let the Order use it as headquarters. If there was no will, then it's up for grabs by the next nearest kin...."Congratulations Madame, you have just inherited a house. We would take you there, but we have no idea where it is." LOL
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 6, 2005 8:55 pm (#339 of 365)
Hells, I think that Dumbledore may have harbored at least a glimmer of doubt given the fact that Crouch never permitted a full investigation to occur and packed Sirius off to Azkaban with only holding a preliminary hearing. But even if he would not have defended Sirius there is the possibilty that Andromeda would have.
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Gina R Snape - Mar 6, 2005 9:10 pm (#340 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Ooooh, I love the idea that Mrs. Black's maiden name was either Snape or Malfoy. Wouldn't that be rich?
But where does Phineas Nigellus fit into this? Perhaps her maiden name was Nigellus.
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Solitaire - Mar 6, 2005 11:15 pm (#341 of 365)
Oh, good thought, Gina! That is probably right, of course! I'd forgotten about that old crank!
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Mr. Tibbles - Mar 31, 2005 7:08 pm (#342 of 365)
I'd just like to add something to the hippogriff talk...
If there was a retrial, then Lucius Malfoy couldn't scare the people at the Comeitte for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures.
Assuming Ron and Hermione still have the notes for Buckbeak, Buckbeak would come out cleared of all charges!
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dizzy lizzy - Mar 31, 2005 11:37 pm (#343 of 365)
There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
That's assuming Buckbeak is at 12 Grimmauld Place? What's to say he knows that Sirius has died and has escaped looking for Hagrid or Harry.
Mr Tibbles has a good point though, Lucius Malfoy's control over certain people/committee's would be pretty weak whilst in Azkaban.
Lizzy
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Choices - Apr 1, 2005 12:12 pm (#344 of 365)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm sure someone from the Order has taken over the care of Buckbeak. Maybe they called Hagrid to take him and hide him somewhere or maybe he just comes to Grimmauld Place and cares for him, although Hagrid would cause quite a stir if he were frequently seen in the area.
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Solitaire - Apr 2, 2005 1:28 am (#345 of 365)
I suspect Buckbeak will turn up in the Forbidden Forest when he is needed most. Dumbledore knew Buckbeak had been injured by Kreacher, so I suspect he has taken care to have him moved elsewhere--probably into the care of Hagrid. He would not leave Bucky to Kreacher's "tender mercies." Remember that Dumbledore was instrumental in helping to save Bucky's life as well as Sirius's that night in PoA.
Solitaire
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hells456 - Apr 2, 2005 2:57 pm (#346 of 365)
When Sirius was still there Lupin lived with him, although he was away on missions for the Order a lot (doing what??). Maybe he is still staying there and looking after Buckbeak.
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OkieAngel - Apr 13, 2005 11:07 pm (#347 of 365)
Well, after reading this entire thread, I would like to offer my humble opinions.
First of all, I believe that Sirius left a will, and that it will be honored. Sirius may have been hot-headed and arrogant, but he was no fool. He knew how important 12GP was to the Order, and he wouldn't want anyone to be able to take it from them. I also think that there was/is an entailment attached to the Black estate, but that it came from Mr. Black, who seems to have been an obsessive compulsive in regards to what was his. Now, I have no canon to back this up, just a hunch, but I feel that perhaps Daddy Black didn't feel quite the same as his wife regarding Sirius, so he took steps to insure that Sirius would inherit his holdings, maybe with the provision that Mrs. Black be allowed to live at 12GP for the remainder of her life. Even if Mr. Black did despise the choices Sirius had made, maybe he felt too bound by his own archaic beliefs to deny his first-born his right to his inheritance. As I said, I have no proof for this theory, just hunches and a bit of intuition. It has always seemed odd to me that, given Mrs. Black's hate and malice toward Sirius, she would allow him to inherit the most noble house of Black if she had any say in the matter. Which leads me to believe that she didn't, and the only logical explanation for this (to me anyway) would be that her husband had taken steps to insure that Sirius inherit. I've stated before that I believe the WW as a whole is still basically a male-driven society, so that being the case, any wishes that the Patriarch of a family leaves, would be followed to the letter. Which brings me full circle to why I believe Sirius's last will and testament will be executed and honored, because technically, convict or not, Sirius was the last remaining male of the house of Black (unless Regulus decides to finally come out of hiding, but that's another topic altogether) and so, he was the family's Patriarch. I'm sure Sirius didn't relish this thought, but he wouldn't run from the responsibility either. Far from it, I believe he would have taken meticulous steps (some Daddy Black attributes coming out perhaps) to insure that the Malfoys couldn't lay claim to the estate. I believe he took quite a lot of pride in being Harry's godfather and guardian, and so he would have done everything in his power to make sure Harry's every need would be met. Plus, I think he would have gained no small amount of perverse pleasure in make sure that the Black estate (which I feel is quite extensive and valuable) would be used to fight the very beliefs that his parents (at least his mother) held dear. I positively love the idea that the prestigious Malfoy Manor could in fact be a Black holding, that would be poetic justice.
Now, as to the content of his will. I believe he will have left the bulk of his estate to Harry, but with Lupin as Executor. That way he could make sure the two people he loved were taken care of. I also think he will have left Remus a large entitlement of his own. The Weasley's and Tonks will be beneficiaries as well, I believe, but he would have had to handle this delicately as to not offend Arthur and Molly. Maybe he set up trust funds for Ron and Ginny.
As for Kreacher, I don't think he'll return to 12GP. I think he'll stay with Narcissa and Draco, which is more than enough punishment.
I do think that 12GP will continue to be the Order's HQ, and that Harry will live there, at least until after graduation, when he could move into Sirius's real home, or buy a place of his own. I love the idea of Dobby coming to 12GP and waging war on the house and finally turning it into a place fit for "Harry Potter sir" to live in. I can also see a chapter or two being devoted to Harry and Remus going through the house, and possibly other holdings, in the name of setting things in order, and this providing the way for Harry (and us) to learn more about Sirius and his parents.
I think Beaky will be returned to the forest at Hogwarts, and he will play a part in the battle for the school.
Will Narcissa contest the will?? Quite possibly, especially if she and Draco are in danger of losing their home, but I don't think that she'll have much of a case to overturn it.
Now in the unlikely event that Sirius didn't leave a will, that would make things a bit sticky. I find it hard to believe that DD, Tonks, and Arthur would stand idly by and let the estate go to Narcissa or Draco. Even if worse came to worse, and it was ruled legally theirs, it isn't like anyone could come and evict Harry from 12GP, no one can find it without DD telling them where it is.
This is all contingent on Regulus not showing up and laying claim to it all...
Edit: Wow, I just realised how long this post is, sorry for rambling on and on.
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Snuffles - Apr 14, 2005 12:44 am (#348 of 365)
Olivia
OkieAngel, I agree with the post you have put with one exception. Regulas was killed for trying to leave LV and the death eaters so he cannot come back and try to lay claims on 12GP.
Sirius was definately no fool, yes he could be foolish and rash but where Harry was concerned he will have made sure he has a home when he becomes of age. He alone understands growing up in a place that you despise and where the people around you wish you were anywhere but with them.
IMO DD will have made the necessary arrangements for Sirius when he was in hiding and Sirius may have even signed 12GP over to DD for the order in case anything happened to him. I love the thought that the Malfoy mansion maybe connected to the Black estate, wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth for Draco!
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OkieAngel - Apr 14, 2005 1:56 am (#349 of 365)
I know, Snuffles, Regulus was supposedly killed while attempting to resign his DE membership, but that has always just seemed a bit too cut and dried for me, thus the sarcasm in my previous post. Although it would be a delicious plot twist, doncha think??
I must admit that I still to this day have trouble accepting Sirius' death, despite the direct confirmation from JKR herself. I can't help it, he was my favorite...but, I must move on
Anyway, thanks for reading my post and posting feedback. It's nice to know I'm not alone and ranting in the infinite void that is cyberspace
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Catherine - Apr 14, 2005 7:30 am (#350 of 365)
Canon Seeker
JKR has seemed to "put a stopper" in that line of inquiry, OkieAngel. She's stated very bluntly that Regulus is dead.
Until she said that, I wondered if we were going to see Regulus. After all, Pettigrew and Barty Crouch proved not to be dead, so she couldn't blame us for wondering.
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Choices - Apr 14, 2005 9:46 am (#351 of 365)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have to say I don't believe there was a will. I know how terrible I am about putting things off - I think Sirius was busy hiding out much of the time and then trying to help clean up 12GP for the Order, attending meetings, caring for BuckBeak, etc. I just don't think he had time to think about leaving a will and I really don't think he was the kind who thought he was going to die. Sirius was still somewhat immature and probably thought, like a lot of kids do, that he was immune to death. I think if he thought about a will at all, that he never got around to doing anything about it. About all I can see him doing is telling Dumbledore that if anything happens to him to see that Harry gets all of his things.
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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 14, 2005 12:49 pm (#352 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I have said this 3 or 4 times but I have to interject again. Why is #12 going to change hands? NOBODY knows that Sirius has died other than the ORDER. NOBODY can admit to seeing and fighting along of Sirius without raising questions as to whether they were hiding him from the MoM.
Even worse from Harry's standpoint would be if the MoM did decide that Sirius died during the fight and was fighting for the darkside. Thereby giving Fudge and the MoM something to brag about.
"See we told you Black was Voldemort's front man and we finally got him."
I can see #12GP standing vacant or continuing to be used by the Order because it stood vacant for 13 years while Sirius was in Azkaban and on the run. But I cannot see ownership of #12 changing.
Mikie
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Choices - Apr 14, 2005 2:19 pm (#353 of 365)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well, duh! You are so right Mickey. It didn't occur to me that no one can admit that Sirius is dead. As far as the MOM is concerned, Sirius is still in hiding somewhere. So, ownership of 12 GP is in limbo indefinitely.
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Daisy Pennifold - Apr 14, 2005 2:55 pm (#354 of 365)
The way I see it, once people realize that Harry and Dumbledore were right about Voldemort and that Fudge was deliberately hiding the truth, they'll be much more likely to believe Harry and DD about Sirius. I believe that it will take some time, perhaps until the end of the series (If Harry defeats Voldemort, they'll believe anything he tells them!).
When Harry did his interview with Rita, did he mention Sirius at all?
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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 14, 2005 8:44 pm (#355 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
The key to correcting the injustice aganist Sirius is Wormtail. Harry and Dumbledore must capture Peter and keep him alive long enough for him to clear Sirius.
Mikie
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dizzy lizzy - Apr 16, 2005 2:04 am (#356 of 365)
There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Harry and Dumbledore must capture Peter and keep him alive long enough for him to clear Sirius. Mikie
And if this happens, Wormtail's debt to Harry will be cleared.
Lizzy
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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 16, 2005 8:07 am (#357 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Exactly dizzy lizzy. I believe that will be the end result of Harry allowing Peter to live in PoA.
Mikie
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Solitaire - Apr 16, 2005 1:31 pm (#358 of 365)
Unless Sirius made a will before going into Azkaban--and one would hope that, as Harry's godfather, he would have done so--I do not see how he could have made one after escaping. Anyone who attempted to draw up and file a will on his behalf would have to admit to being involved in aiding and abetting a criminal in his flight from the law. Until Sirius's name is cleared, I do not think anything can be done that was not done before he went into hiding.
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Apr 16, 2005 8:55 pm (#359 of 365)
Librarian
I don't know how it is everywhere but in Delaware and DC wills are only filed after death.
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Solitaire - Apr 16, 2005 9:38 pm (#360 of 365)
Really? Hm ... I have an official will that has been notorized and all that good stuff, and the last time I checked, I was still alive. If a will is filed only after a person dies, how can one be sure that it is the real will?
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Apr 16, 2005 9:41 pm (#361 of 365)
Librarian
On such issues lawyers make a good living. Your will may be notarized but that is not filed. A notary is a witness to the signing.
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Solitaire - Apr 17, 2005 9:40 am (#362 of 365)
My will has been "recorded" and "filed for safekeeping," according to my dad, as have his and my mom's wills (I checked). We did this because of some problems that ensued when my mom's mother died intestate.
I still think it would be difficult for a fugitive to leave a will, unless he used a do-it-yourself-wizard-will kit. Anyone who helped him prepare it as a legal document would have to admit knowing his whereabouts and keeping them from the authorities. In such an instance, I can see any "interested" parties contesting the will, just to be mean and nasty. (Malfoys, anyone?)
Solitaire
edited
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librarian314 - Apr 25, 2005 12:13 pm (#363 of 365)
Hey all!
It seems to me that legal issues in the wizard world are somewhat less cut and dried than here in Muggle-land. I think of how many times we are told something is illegal and then see one of the good guys do it. (Instances include: Arthur and his car, the temporary Floo hook-up to the Dursleys, James, Sirius, and Peter becoming Animagi, and Dumbledore and his portkeys, just to name the first few that come to mind.) I think that those that Sirius wanted to take care of will be, whether or not he left a will and whether or not his death can be announced.
That said, I think that Sirius had a written will. He'd been through a war with Voldemort that left his godson an orphan and him as guardian. He knows young people die. I think he'd do what he could to provide for Harry. I also think he would have provided for Remus, as well, for numerous reasons. One, for being the first to stand by him, once all the info was out. Secondly, to make up for doubting him during the first Voldemort war. Thirdly, it would really annoy his mom.
There is a tidbit that bothers me a bit. We hear Mrs. Black screaming about all the unworthies (half-breeds, half-bloods, mud-bloods, and muggle-lovers) defiling "the house of her fathers". What if Sirius's childhood home wasn't from his dad, but from his mom? Who knows to whom she's related? We only see a partial lineage of the Black family, not Sirius' mom. We have no idea what her maiden name was. She and Snape's mom could be sisters for all we know.
We know that Sirius' dad and Narcissa's, Bellatrix's, and Andromeda's dad were brothers but we don't know which one was older and therefore can't really speculate on primogeniture issues.
I want a look at the entire Black family tree and I want to know what Mrs. Black's maiden name is. Hopefully, since JKR hasn't told us, it isn't important but until I get HBP and hopefully this question is answered, it'll continue to bug me.
Y'all take care!
*michelle the librarian**
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Good Evans - Apr 25, 2005 1:04 pm (#364 of 365)
Practically perfect in every way
OOOOh Michelle I like that.... who is (was) Mrs Black, and what was her lineage. Clearly a pure blood wizard, and yes there are all types of wizards, as Sirius says the world is not divided in to Death Eaters and good wizards, but Sirius hatred for his mother is quite clear. They weren't death eaters but they beleived very strongly in the preservance of the pure wizard blood.
I would be interested to see her lineage, but I woul be surprised if it went to malfoy or le'strange as they were mentioned during the tapestry scene and he made no mention of another connection through "dear old mum".
perhaps she is a "fudge" !!??!! now wouldn't that add a new dimension. I doubt that she is but what if....
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Netherlandic - May 15, 2005 4:10 pm (#365 of 365)
Mrs. Blacks maidenname may be Black as well. Perhaps she married her cousin. There is not much choice regarding pure bloods
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"...if Kreacher goes to serve Narcissa now that Sirius is dead" -Mrs Brisbee
Wouldn't Kreacher stay with the house. I don't have the books with me but didn't Ron say something once about wishing he had enough money to move to a house that had a house elf not a ghoul?
Brianna Wing
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 3, 2005 1:25 pm (#302 of 365)
Ron said something about his mother wishing they had a house elf, I think.
But didn't Dobby say that house elves are bound to serve one family. Sirius said Kreacher was supposed to take orders from any Black family members, although Kreacher was ignoring orders from Tonks probably because she wasn't on the tapestry. I think the elf is bound to the family, not the house, and if say a family moved they could take their house elf with them.
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Eric Bailey - Feb 19, 2005 6:26 am (#303 of 365)
Perhaps the Order was legally able to use the House because Andromeda allowed it? Her daughter is part of the Order, after all.
With Sirius and Bella being either in jail or fugitives since the first war, Andromeda, as next in line after them, would likely have been in charge of any legal affairs involving the Black estate. Voldemort would have to win, outright, for Bella to be able to take control of the family, again. Otherwise, her remaining years are going to be as a fugitive or in prison. So, the Head of the Black family, at least legally in an acting sense, would now be Andromeda, and, once Bella's gone, she'll be the Head in every sense. It's not like Harry's hurting for money (His parents left him a fortune), so Sirius would have no reason to try to disinherit Andromeda.
So, ironically, the Heir of the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black, "Toujours Pur", would seem to be Nymphadora Tonks.
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Solitaire - Feb 19, 2005 12:51 pm (#304 of 365)
Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 2, page 14 (US ed.): "Dobby is a house-elf--bound to serve one house and one family forever ..."
Farther down the page ... A house-elf must be set free, sir. And the family will never set Dobby free ... Dobby will serve the family until he dies, sir ..."
It sounds like the house-elf is bound to the family and the house. Given the fact that mostly old, wealthy Wizarding families have house-elves, it seems logical to assume that these families live in large manors that remain in the family generation after generation. So it makes sense that the house-elf stays with the family in that particular house.
Dobby was freed, or he would still be in Malfoy Manor. It does not sound like the house-elf is free to just leave under any other circumstance. Kreacher is still at 12GP, and presumably he cannot leave due to knowing too much about the Order.
As for Andromeda inheriting the house ... we don't really know how Wizarding law works in this area of things. It is possible that regular laws of inheritance apply, and she would inherit as next of kin--assuming there isn't some other, more immediate Black we don't yet know about. It is also possible that a clause in the will of Sirius's mother might prevent her from inheriting ... or designate someone else as beneficiary. I suppose it is equally possible that no more immediate family members mean that the house will just sit there unoccupied by anyone but Kreacher--until he dies. What a happy thought.
Solitaire
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Amilia Smith - Feb 19, 2005 8:01 pm (#305 of 365)
I don't think Mrs. Black could have left a will. Otherwise, why would Sirius have inherited Grimmauld Place? He had been disowned, blasted off the tapestry (which seem to me the equivalent of having your name scratched out of the family Bible), and living with friends or on his own since he was a teenager.
Maybe none of the rest of the family wants the place? After all, they all just let it sit empty for the 12 years Sirius was in Azkaban. Or maybe they don't know how to get past all of the protections Sirius's father put in place. Either way, it could end up just as Solitaire suggested, sitting empty again, going to seed with nothing but Kreacher and Mrs. Black's portrait.
Mills.
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Joanne R. Reid - Feb 20, 2005 11:52 am (#306 of 365)
However, if that does happen, 12GP effectively disappears from time and space. Not only is 12GP unplottable, but it is also protected by DD. Nobody can detect the house unless told of its existence by DD.
Who can enter 12 GP right now? DD and the OotP plus Harry, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Fred and George. No Malfoy or anyone else will be able to find 12 GP if DD et. al. abandon it.
Kreacher can not tell anyone, because he is bound by the secret. He would spend his final days wandering about its halls, listening to the mad protrait.
Then, he will die and 12GP will lie abandoned, undetectable by either wizard or muggle until the enchantment dies or Earth is destroyed.
What a dark and horrible ending! :-((
Thanks,
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Solitaire - Feb 20, 2005 6:52 pm (#307 of 365)
Joanne, I confess that is the end I foresee for GP--unless someone gets rid of Kreacher. I can't see Harry living there with him. As for the Malfoys finding or not finding it ... Narcissa may know where it is, if she happened to visit it in her youth. She is, after all, a Black cousin, so it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that she may know. I just can't imagine her wanting it--unless she suspects there may be some Dark Arts artifacts there.
Then again, maybe Harry would love anyplace that is not 4PD and will happily move into GP. It just seems awfully depressing to me. I guess I'm projecting my feelings onto Harry ... I wouldn't want to live in the Grim Old Place.
Solitaire
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Gina R Snape - Feb 20, 2005 8:01 pm (#308 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think it's fair to say nobody wanted the house before, as it lay rotting for 12 years. But now that it's being used as the HQ for the Order, it may be seen as a more desirable property if for no other reason than to keep it from Dumbledore.
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Solitaire - Feb 20, 2005 11:22 pm (#309 of 365)
But do the Malfoys know it was being used by DD? If Kreacher was forbidden to tell anyone about the Order, then how would the Malfoys know anyone but Sirius had been staying there? I'm not disputing you ... I'm just wondering, because it seems there were some things he was forbidden to tell.
Solitaire
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Gina R Snape - Feb 20, 2005 11:34 pm (#310 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Yes, there were some things he was forbidden to tell. But they knew about the Order. They knew Sirius was alive, and they knew a few things about what DD was up to. DD briefly touches upon this in his big speech at the end of the book. I would quote it for you, but I've leant my book to the new security guard at my job who has been eating up all the books faster than I can bring them into work.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 21, 2005 7:03 am (#311 of 365)
Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 2, page 14 (US ed.): "Dobby is a house-elf--bound to serve one house and one family forever ..."
Farther down the page ... A house-elf must be set free, sir. And the family will never set Dobby free ... Dobby will serve the family until he dies, sir ..."
It sounds like the house-elf is bound to the family and the house. --Solitaire.
I stand corrected. So Kreacher will stay with the 12 Grimmauld Place, but he wont take orders from anyone there unless they are a Black (but not Tonks). Something will have to be done with Kreacher then if the Order wants to keep using the house as headquarters, because Kreacher can just leave to report anything to Narcissa.
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Detail Seeker - Feb 21, 2005 2:47 pm (#312 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
There is always a place for Kreacher at the wall....
Narcissa, though knowing, that the house GP12 exists and where it exists would not be able to enter because of Dumbeldore´s Fidelius Charm, so no use for her.
As no Ministry law enforcement person, who is not in the Order knows about the Fidelius, there is no danger, that the Malfoys would be able to enter the house, even if they where declared heirs.
"Father Black must have done some good protection charms. What a pity, you do not find your heirloom...."
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Solitaire - Feb 21, 2005 8:38 pm (#313 of 365)
Tonks's mother--like Bella and Narcissa--is a first cousin to Sirius. Tonks is not. If we are following the family line, she would be in about the same place as Draco ... except that her father is a Muggle-born where Lucius is not (so far as we know).
I suppose that if Lucius is also related in some way--Could Mrs. Black's family be related to the Malfoy family?--that might give Draco an edge over Tonks. You know, I have to say I think Kreacher would be just perfect to take care of Draco. YUCK! The two of them deserve each other. If only Dumbledore could obliviate Kreacher's memory ... Then again, if he did that, then Kreacher might be tolerable.
Solitaire
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Tomoé - Mar 1, 2005 9:39 pm (#314 of 365)
Back in business
Do the Malfoys know the Order is at 12GP?
How couldn't they know, it was Kreatcher who told them, even they should be able to put two and two together.
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Solitaire - Mar 2, 2005 8:19 am (#315 of 365)
But do they know where the house is, or even that it is at 12GP? I agree that it is probable that Narcissa, at least, has been there at some point during her life. Then again, maybe not, given the extent of the protections that were placed on it by Mr. Black, Sr. He might have kept even his own family away.
Solitaire
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els - Mar 2, 2005 12:04 pm (#316 of 365)
I thought that Kreacher was forbidden by Sirius to discuss any business about the Order. So when Sirius told him to "get out" at Christmas, Kreacher literally followed the order and went to the Malfoys. Kreacher only told them that Harry and Sirius were very close per the conversation with Dumbledore. I feel that the Malfoys already knew Sirius was in London and possibly using 12GP, which Kreacher's appearance would have affirmed. Now why they waited and didn't turn Sirius in, Voldemort possibly came up with the plan to use Sirius to get to Harry. And maybe the Ministry wouldn't be able to get to the house because of the protection. So I don't think the Malfoys knew that the Order's headquarters are at 12GP
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GryffEndora - Mar 2, 2005 12:49 pm (#317 of 365)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
I agree with you els, I think the Malfoys could figure out that Sirius was hiding out at 12GP because of Kreacher's sudden appearance and his knowing information about Harry & Sirius' relationship, but I'm sure Kreacher was unable to tell them that 12GP is Headquarters to the Order.
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Solitaire - Mar 2, 2005 9:08 pm (#318 of 365)
Dumbledore said that Kreacher could not give the Malfoys their whereabouts or tell them any of the Order's confidential plans that he had been forbidden to reveal. He could not disobey a direct order from Sirius. But he gave Narcissa information that was very valuable to Voldemort, yet seemed too trivial for Sirius to think of banning him from telling anyone.
I still have questions about how the Fidelius charm works, which means I'm not super clear on what the Malfoys may or may not have known ... because it seems the charm can alter what one is allowed to know. I'll be glad for a clearer explanation of the Fidelius charm ... hopefully!
Solitaire
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Eric Bailey - Mar 3, 2005 1:43 am (#319 of 365)
Well, with Sirius dead, and Bella a fugitive, everything goes to Andromeda. Ironically, the one who left the family is now it's acting Head, and once Bella is dead... So, Kreacher would now have to do whatever Nymphadora says, since she's Andromeda's daughter and heir. Of course, Andromeda would probably prefer to just put Kreacher to sleep.
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GryffEndora - Mar 3, 2005 4:17 pm (#320 of 365)
Our heads could do with filling with some interesting stuff, for now they're bare and full of air, dead flies and bits of fluff
Bella has 2 sisters, Andromeda Tonks and Narcissa Malfoy. Andromeda left the family or was rejected from it. It's possible that Narcissa is the more likely heir, unless it is split between the two.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 3, 2005 4:26 pm (#321 of 365)
Bellatrix's name was to the left of Andromeda's on the Black family tapestry, correct? So she is the oldest, Andromeda next, and Narcissa the youngest. Since Sirius was able to inherit while in Azkaban, and take residence while a fugitive, I don't think we can discount Bellatrix from inheriting.
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Tomoé - Mar 3, 2005 7:18 pm (#322 of 365)
Back in business
But Bella did kill the legal heir herself, some more into legal stuff than I am said you can inherit a thing from a person you murdered. It does make sense.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 3, 2005 9:08 pm (#323 of 365)
If it is assumed that inheritance laws are parallel in both the Muggle and wizarding Even though Bella murdered Sirius she could inheit although, the possibility exists that as a fugitive she could be barred from inheriting because, there are laws in some places that do not allow for fugitives or those convicted of felonies to inherit. But if that is the case then Andromeda would be next in line because, in the absence of a will and testamentory statement from Mrs. Black I do not think the removal of Andromeda and her children from the tapestry would constitute sufficient evidence of Mrs. Black's wishes. Although I wonder if it is possible for her portrait to testify to her wishes.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 4, 2005 1:02 pm (#324 of 365)
But Bella did kill the legal heir herself, some more into legal stuff than I am said you can inherit a thing from a person you murdered. It does make sense.
*Smacks self on forehead** Oh, right. I forgot about that for some reason. Though this could mean the Black estate could remain unsettled for a long time, if conviction of murder is necessary to prevent Bellatrix from inheriting.
I don't think being blasted off the tapestry would stop Andromeda from inheriting, as it didn't prevent Sirius from getting 12 Grimmauld place.
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Detail Seeker - Mar 4, 2005 3:59 pm (#325 of 365)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
As far as I understand the situation, Sirius took the house, that nobody seems to have claimed for a longer time. So it seems, that neither Andromeda nor Narcissa were interested.
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mike miller - Mar 4, 2005 5:26 pm (#326 of 365)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
I agree with Detail Seeker on this current line of discussion. It would appear that the neighborhood had taken a turn for the worse, so those who could have made a claim did not. Sirius was able to take possesion and now with the help of DD it's almost a moot point. Everyone else who might want it, could never find it!
As to it's future ownership, I believe Sirius did leave a will. Contrary to my much earlier position of Harry inheriting #12 GP, I think Sirius will leave it to DD for as long as the Order requires it's use. At such time in the future when the Order is no longer in need it will be sold at auction to benefit St Mungo's or some other charity closer to Sirius's heart.
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Daisy Pennifold - Mar 4, 2005 6:18 pm (#327 of 365)
Would 12 GP even allow Tonks's dad, a muggle, in the house, or would it blast away Rocky Horror-style or chew him up or something?
I still stand by my earlier opinion that the Blacks (Sirius's mum and dad) would entail the estate away to a male heir. Draco is the nearest living male heir that we know of.
Not only does this make sense (to me at least), knowing what we know of the characters, it would make for a great story.
Draco has to reclaim some dignity in this next book - he has already ceased to be menacing to Harry. By reigning over 12 GP he will have something of Sirius's (he probably wouldn't be aware that Sirius hated the house).
He may even find something in the house that would be precious to Harry, and use it for blackmail purposes, etc. Or use information given him by Kreacher, whom can arguably be said to go with the house. (I know some people disagree with this, and I'm not sure about it myself). I personally think that Kreacher would divulge information about previous inhabitants to current inhabitants, without feeling any need to punish himself.
This is the only strong conviction I have ever had about any of the aspects of JK's world, and I would be SO proud if I am right!
Of course, I'm probably not. She's quite a devious gal.
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Phoenix song - Mar 4, 2005 9:15 pm (#328 of 365)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
"Would 12 GP even allow Tonks's dad, a muggle, in the house, or would it blast away Rocky Horror-style or chew him up or something?"
Daisy, I believe that Tonk's father was a Muggle-born, and not a Muggle. That would place him in the same category as Hermione. As far as we know the house didn't particularly object to Hermione, just Kreacher and Mrs. Black's portrait.
You have a good idea, though, about regular Muggles. I wonder if, say, Hermione's parents would be allowed to visit if Dumbledore insisted (for their own protection?) Of course, we did discuss quite a bit at one time whether Pet, Vernon and Dudley would have to come and live at #12 for their protection. It's such a riot to think about scrupulously clean Pet living at #12 Grimmauld Place. Can you imagine how scarred she would be after such an experience?
Barbie
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Eric Bailey - Mar 5, 2005 5:38 am (#329 of 365)
Well, the only Blacks left that we know of are the Tonks and Malfoy branches, and the Tonks branch would be next in line of succession as far as family matters are concerned. It doesn't really matter if Narcissa approves of Andromeda, or not. "She didn't want to be a Death Eater" probably wouldn't go over too well with the Ministry as a reason to have Andromeda disinherited, anyway. Narcissa is going to be too busy protecting the Malfoy assets from the Ministry to worry about the Black ones.
And, yeah, there's no reason Ted's muggleborn status would keep him out of the house, since Hermione was able to enter, as well as at least three "halfbloods", Harry, Remus, and Nymphadora.
As for Sirius, he was hiding in the House. It wasn't as though he announced to the Ministry that he was moving back in. We do know he used third parties to access his bank account.
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Catherine - Mar 5, 2005 6:34 am (#330 of 365)
Canon Seeker
Well, the only Blacks left that we know of are the Tonks and Malfoy branches, and the Tonks branch would be next in line of succession as far as family matters are concerned.
Why wouldn't the sisters have an equal share, if Sirius left no instructions to the contrary?
I just keep wondering if someone is going to pop up out of the woodwork to claim 12 GP that we don't expect.
EDIT: Where's that Loopy Lupin when you need him? He could probably straighten this out.
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Tomoé - Mar 5, 2005 1:13 pm (#331 of 365)
Back in business
Hum, good question, if only we knew what was Mrs Black's family name ...
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Catherine - Mar 5, 2005 1:50 pm (#332 of 365)
Canon Seeker
Wouldn't it be interesting if Mrs. Black's family name were Snape?
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Choices - Mar 5, 2005 7:36 pm (#333 of 365)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
YiKes, so that could be where she gets her lovable nature from.....the Snape side of the family.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 5, 2005 8:12 pm (#334 of 365)
A familial connection with Snape, would only increase Sirius hatred of Snape as well. In terms of the Black sisters receiving an equal share it is possible. As to the reason whn none of them showed any interest in the years following Mrs. Black's death. Sirius was still alive and any challenge to his right of inhheritance would probably have been fought by Dumbledore.
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Solitaire - Mar 5, 2005 9:28 pm (#335 of 365)
YiKes, so that could be where she gets her lovable nature from.....the Snape side of the family.
LOL Choices! I laughed so hard I spit on the screen and almost fell off my chair! Now, I have another suggestion (not nearly so funny) ... What if Mrs. Black's maiden name was Malfoy?
Solitaire
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Loopy Lupin - Mar 6, 2005 1:20 pm (#336 of 365)
Why wouldn't the sisters have an equal share, if Sirius left no instructions to the contrary? -- Catherine
That would be correct; the house should go to the sisters if Sirius left no will. Correct that is, assuming that the Wizarding World follows the common law of England with respect to the course of descent where no will is left, which Virginia, where I am licensed to practice law, generally does. Of course, I should point out that if Mama Black left no will, then under the same rules I'm looking at, the sisters should have had a share in the house to begin with. So, either the WW doesn't follow the typical rules or, for some strange reason, the property was left to Sirius outright. (Does Sirius mention anything about this?) I would also point out that, in modern times, adoptive children are generally granted the same privileges as natural born children. I don't think we've heard that Harry was "officially" adopted by Sirius, but it seems that James and Lily did "officially" name Sirius as Harry's Godfather. That may afford Harry some sort of standing even without a will from Sirius.
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hells456 - Mar 6, 2005 6:02 pm (#337 of 365)
Nathan Zimmermann "As to the reason whn none of them showed any interest in the years following Mrs. Black's death. Sirius was still alive and any challenge to his right of inhheritance would probably have been fought by Dumbledore."
DD thought he was a spy and a mass murderer who nearly got the hope of the wizarding world destroyed, I don't think he would have contested on Sirius's behalf. I agree that the sisters were not interested. Narcissa may be interested now though, especially if Lucius's imprisonment has resulted in the Malfoys assets being frozen or something like that. They might want a place to hide themselves.
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Choices - Mar 6, 2005 8:38 pm (#338 of 365)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I can't imagine Mrs. Black leaving the house to Sirius - she seems to have hated her son for being a blood traitor, and Sirius left home early because he did not get along with his parents and did not share their beliefs. He just got the house because he was the last of the Blacks. If he left a will, then Harry may inherit the house, but I think he would continue to let the Order use it as headquarters. If there was no will, then it's up for grabs by the next nearest kin...."Congratulations Madame, you have just inherited a house. We would take you there, but we have no idea where it is." LOL
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 6, 2005 8:55 pm (#339 of 365)
Hells, I think that Dumbledore may have harbored at least a glimmer of doubt given the fact that Crouch never permitted a full investigation to occur and packed Sirius off to Azkaban with only holding a preliminary hearing. But even if he would not have defended Sirius there is the possibilty that Andromeda would have.
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Gina R Snape - Mar 6, 2005 9:10 pm (#340 of 365)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Ooooh, I love the idea that Mrs. Black's maiden name was either Snape or Malfoy. Wouldn't that be rich?
But where does Phineas Nigellus fit into this? Perhaps her maiden name was Nigellus.
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Solitaire - Mar 6, 2005 11:15 pm (#341 of 365)
Oh, good thought, Gina! That is probably right, of course! I'd forgotten about that old crank!
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Mr. Tibbles - Mar 31, 2005 7:08 pm (#342 of 365)
I'd just like to add something to the hippogriff talk...
If there was a retrial, then Lucius Malfoy couldn't scare the people at the Comeitte for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures.
Assuming Ron and Hermione still have the notes for Buckbeak, Buckbeak would come out cleared of all charges!
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dizzy lizzy - Mar 31, 2005 11:37 pm (#343 of 365)
There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
That's assuming Buckbeak is at 12 Grimmauld Place? What's to say he knows that Sirius has died and has escaped looking for Hagrid or Harry.
Mr Tibbles has a good point though, Lucius Malfoy's control over certain people/committee's would be pretty weak whilst in Azkaban.
Lizzy
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Choices - Apr 1, 2005 12:12 pm (#344 of 365)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm sure someone from the Order has taken over the care of Buckbeak. Maybe they called Hagrid to take him and hide him somewhere or maybe he just comes to Grimmauld Place and cares for him, although Hagrid would cause quite a stir if he were frequently seen in the area.
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Solitaire - Apr 2, 2005 1:28 am (#345 of 365)
I suspect Buckbeak will turn up in the Forbidden Forest when he is needed most. Dumbledore knew Buckbeak had been injured by Kreacher, so I suspect he has taken care to have him moved elsewhere--probably into the care of Hagrid. He would not leave Bucky to Kreacher's "tender mercies." Remember that Dumbledore was instrumental in helping to save Bucky's life as well as Sirius's that night in PoA.
Solitaire
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hells456 - Apr 2, 2005 2:57 pm (#346 of 365)
When Sirius was still there Lupin lived with him, although he was away on missions for the Order a lot (doing what??). Maybe he is still staying there and looking after Buckbeak.
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OkieAngel - Apr 13, 2005 11:07 pm (#347 of 365)
Well, after reading this entire thread, I would like to offer my humble opinions.
First of all, I believe that Sirius left a will, and that it will be honored. Sirius may have been hot-headed and arrogant, but he was no fool. He knew how important 12GP was to the Order, and he wouldn't want anyone to be able to take it from them. I also think that there was/is an entailment attached to the Black estate, but that it came from Mr. Black, who seems to have been an obsessive compulsive in regards to what was his. Now, I have no canon to back this up, just a hunch, but I feel that perhaps Daddy Black didn't feel quite the same as his wife regarding Sirius, so he took steps to insure that Sirius would inherit his holdings, maybe with the provision that Mrs. Black be allowed to live at 12GP for the remainder of her life. Even if Mr. Black did despise the choices Sirius had made, maybe he felt too bound by his own archaic beliefs to deny his first-born his right to his inheritance. As I said, I have no proof for this theory, just hunches and a bit of intuition. It has always seemed odd to me that, given Mrs. Black's hate and malice toward Sirius, she would allow him to inherit the most noble house of Black if she had any say in the matter. Which leads me to believe that she didn't, and the only logical explanation for this (to me anyway) would be that her husband had taken steps to insure that Sirius inherit. I've stated before that I believe the WW as a whole is still basically a male-driven society, so that being the case, any wishes that the Patriarch of a family leaves, would be followed to the letter. Which brings me full circle to why I believe Sirius's last will and testament will be executed and honored, because technically, convict or not, Sirius was the last remaining male of the house of Black (unless Regulus decides to finally come out of hiding, but that's another topic altogether) and so, he was the family's Patriarch. I'm sure Sirius didn't relish this thought, but he wouldn't run from the responsibility either. Far from it, I believe he would have taken meticulous steps (some Daddy Black attributes coming out perhaps) to insure that the Malfoys couldn't lay claim to the estate. I believe he took quite a lot of pride in being Harry's godfather and guardian, and so he would have done everything in his power to make sure Harry's every need would be met. Plus, I think he would have gained no small amount of perverse pleasure in make sure that the Black estate (which I feel is quite extensive and valuable) would be used to fight the very beliefs that his parents (at least his mother) held dear. I positively love the idea that the prestigious Malfoy Manor could in fact be a Black holding, that would be poetic justice.
Now, as to the content of his will. I believe he will have left the bulk of his estate to Harry, but with Lupin as Executor. That way he could make sure the two people he loved were taken care of. I also think he will have left Remus a large entitlement of his own. The Weasley's and Tonks will be beneficiaries as well, I believe, but he would have had to handle this delicately as to not offend Arthur and Molly. Maybe he set up trust funds for Ron and Ginny.
As for Kreacher, I don't think he'll return to 12GP. I think he'll stay with Narcissa and Draco, which is more than enough punishment.
I do think that 12GP will continue to be the Order's HQ, and that Harry will live there, at least until after graduation, when he could move into Sirius's real home, or buy a place of his own. I love the idea of Dobby coming to 12GP and waging war on the house and finally turning it into a place fit for "Harry Potter sir" to live in. I can also see a chapter or two being devoted to Harry and Remus going through the house, and possibly other holdings, in the name of setting things in order, and this providing the way for Harry (and us) to learn more about Sirius and his parents.
I think Beaky will be returned to the forest at Hogwarts, and he will play a part in the battle for the school.
Will Narcissa contest the will?? Quite possibly, especially if she and Draco are in danger of losing their home, but I don't think that she'll have much of a case to overturn it.
Now in the unlikely event that Sirius didn't leave a will, that would make things a bit sticky. I find it hard to believe that DD, Tonks, and Arthur would stand idly by and let the estate go to Narcissa or Draco. Even if worse came to worse, and it was ruled legally theirs, it isn't like anyone could come and evict Harry from 12GP, no one can find it without DD telling them where it is.
This is all contingent on Regulus not showing up and laying claim to it all...
Edit: Wow, I just realised how long this post is, sorry for rambling on and on.
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Snuffles - Apr 14, 2005 12:44 am (#348 of 365)
Olivia
OkieAngel, I agree with the post you have put with one exception. Regulas was killed for trying to leave LV and the death eaters so he cannot come back and try to lay claims on 12GP.
Sirius was definately no fool, yes he could be foolish and rash but where Harry was concerned he will have made sure he has a home when he becomes of age. He alone understands growing up in a place that you despise and where the people around you wish you were anywhere but with them.
IMO DD will have made the necessary arrangements for Sirius when he was in hiding and Sirius may have even signed 12GP over to DD for the order in case anything happened to him. I love the thought that the Malfoy mansion maybe connected to the Black estate, wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth for Draco!
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OkieAngel - Apr 14, 2005 1:56 am (#349 of 365)
I know, Snuffles, Regulus was supposedly killed while attempting to resign his DE membership, but that has always just seemed a bit too cut and dried for me, thus the sarcasm in my previous post. Although it would be a delicious plot twist, doncha think??
I must admit that I still to this day have trouble accepting Sirius' death, despite the direct confirmation from JKR herself. I can't help it, he was my favorite...but, I must move on
Anyway, thanks for reading my post and posting feedback. It's nice to know I'm not alone and ranting in the infinite void that is cyberspace
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Catherine - Apr 14, 2005 7:30 am (#350 of 365)
Canon Seeker
JKR has seemed to "put a stopper" in that line of inquiry, OkieAngel. She's stated very bluntly that Regulus is dead.
Until she said that, I wondered if we were going to see Regulus. After all, Pettigrew and Barty Crouch proved not to be dead, so she couldn't blame us for wondering.
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Choices - Apr 14, 2005 9:46 am (#351 of 365)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have to say I don't believe there was a will. I know how terrible I am about putting things off - I think Sirius was busy hiding out much of the time and then trying to help clean up 12GP for the Order, attending meetings, caring for BuckBeak, etc. I just don't think he had time to think about leaving a will and I really don't think he was the kind who thought he was going to die. Sirius was still somewhat immature and probably thought, like a lot of kids do, that he was immune to death. I think if he thought about a will at all, that he never got around to doing anything about it. About all I can see him doing is telling Dumbledore that if anything happens to him to see that Harry gets all of his things.
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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 14, 2005 12:49 pm (#352 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I have said this 3 or 4 times but I have to interject again. Why is #12 going to change hands? NOBODY knows that Sirius has died other than the ORDER. NOBODY can admit to seeing and fighting along of Sirius without raising questions as to whether they were hiding him from the MoM.
Even worse from Harry's standpoint would be if the MoM did decide that Sirius died during the fight and was fighting for the darkside. Thereby giving Fudge and the MoM something to brag about.
"See we told you Black was Voldemort's front man and we finally got him."
I can see #12GP standing vacant or continuing to be used by the Order because it stood vacant for 13 years while Sirius was in Azkaban and on the run. But I cannot see ownership of #12 changing.
Mikie
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Choices - Apr 14, 2005 2:19 pm (#353 of 365)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well, duh! You are so right Mickey. It didn't occur to me that no one can admit that Sirius is dead. As far as the MOM is concerned, Sirius is still in hiding somewhere. So, ownership of 12 GP is in limbo indefinitely.
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Daisy Pennifold - Apr 14, 2005 2:55 pm (#354 of 365)
The way I see it, once people realize that Harry and Dumbledore were right about Voldemort and that Fudge was deliberately hiding the truth, they'll be much more likely to believe Harry and DD about Sirius. I believe that it will take some time, perhaps until the end of the series (If Harry defeats Voldemort, they'll believe anything he tells them!).
When Harry did his interview with Rita, did he mention Sirius at all?
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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 14, 2005 8:44 pm (#355 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
The key to correcting the injustice aganist Sirius is Wormtail. Harry and Dumbledore must capture Peter and keep him alive long enough for him to clear Sirius.
Mikie
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dizzy lizzy - Apr 16, 2005 2:04 am (#356 of 365)
There is more to life than increasing its speed: Mahatama Ghandi.
Harry and Dumbledore must capture Peter and keep him alive long enough for him to clear Sirius. Mikie
And if this happens, Wormtail's debt to Harry will be cleared.
Lizzy
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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 16, 2005 8:07 am (#357 of 365)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Exactly dizzy lizzy. I believe that will be the end result of Harry allowing Peter to live in PoA.
Mikie
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Solitaire - Apr 16, 2005 1:31 pm (#358 of 365)
Unless Sirius made a will before going into Azkaban--and one would hope that, as Harry's godfather, he would have done so--I do not see how he could have made one after escaping. Anyone who attempted to draw up and file a will on his behalf would have to admit to being involved in aiding and abetting a criminal in his flight from the law. Until Sirius's name is cleared, I do not think anything can be done that was not done before he went into hiding.
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Apr 16, 2005 8:55 pm (#359 of 365)
Librarian
I don't know how it is everywhere but in Delaware and DC wills are only filed after death.
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Solitaire - Apr 16, 2005 9:38 pm (#360 of 365)
Really? Hm ... I have an official will that has been notorized and all that good stuff, and the last time I checked, I was still alive. If a will is filed only after a person dies, how can one be sure that it is the real will?
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Apr 16, 2005 9:41 pm (#361 of 365)
Librarian
On such issues lawyers make a good living. Your will may be notarized but that is not filed. A notary is a witness to the signing.
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Solitaire - Apr 17, 2005 9:40 am (#362 of 365)
My will has been "recorded" and "filed for safekeeping," according to my dad, as have his and my mom's wills (I checked). We did this because of some problems that ensued when my mom's mother died intestate.
I still think it would be difficult for a fugitive to leave a will, unless he used a do-it-yourself-wizard-will kit. Anyone who helped him prepare it as a legal document would have to admit knowing his whereabouts and keeping them from the authorities. In such an instance, I can see any "interested" parties contesting the will, just to be mean and nasty. (Malfoys, anyone?)
Solitaire
edited
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librarian314 - Apr 25, 2005 12:13 pm (#363 of 365)
Hey all!
It seems to me that legal issues in the wizard world are somewhat less cut and dried than here in Muggle-land. I think of how many times we are told something is illegal and then see one of the good guys do it. (Instances include: Arthur and his car, the temporary Floo hook-up to the Dursleys, James, Sirius, and Peter becoming Animagi, and Dumbledore and his portkeys, just to name the first few that come to mind.) I think that those that Sirius wanted to take care of will be, whether or not he left a will and whether or not his death can be announced.
That said, I think that Sirius had a written will. He'd been through a war with Voldemort that left his godson an orphan and him as guardian. He knows young people die. I think he'd do what he could to provide for Harry. I also think he would have provided for Remus, as well, for numerous reasons. One, for being the first to stand by him, once all the info was out. Secondly, to make up for doubting him during the first Voldemort war. Thirdly, it would really annoy his mom.
There is a tidbit that bothers me a bit. We hear Mrs. Black screaming about all the unworthies (half-breeds, half-bloods, mud-bloods, and muggle-lovers) defiling "the house of her fathers". What if Sirius's childhood home wasn't from his dad, but from his mom? Who knows to whom she's related? We only see a partial lineage of the Black family, not Sirius' mom. We have no idea what her maiden name was. She and Snape's mom could be sisters for all we know.
We know that Sirius' dad and Narcissa's, Bellatrix's, and Andromeda's dad were brothers but we don't know which one was older and therefore can't really speculate on primogeniture issues.
I want a look at the entire Black family tree and I want to know what Mrs. Black's maiden name is. Hopefully, since JKR hasn't told us, it isn't important but until I get HBP and hopefully this question is answered, it'll continue to bug me.
Y'all take care!
*michelle the librarian**
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Good Evans - Apr 25, 2005 1:04 pm (#364 of 365)
Practically perfect in every way
OOOOh Michelle I like that.... who is (was) Mrs Black, and what was her lineage. Clearly a pure blood wizard, and yes there are all types of wizards, as Sirius says the world is not divided in to Death Eaters and good wizards, but Sirius hatred for his mother is quite clear. They weren't death eaters but they beleived very strongly in the preservance of the pure wizard blood.
I would be interested to see her lineage, but I woul be surprised if it went to malfoy or le'strange as they were mentioned during the tapestry scene and he made no mention of another connection through "dear old mum".
perhaps she is a "fudge" !!??!! now wouldn't that add a new dimension. I doubt that she is but what if....
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Netherlandic - May 15, 2005 4:10 pm (#365 of 365)
Mrs. Blacks maidenname may be Black as well. Perhaps she married her cousin. There is not much choice regarding pure bloods
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