Fidelius Charm

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Fidelius Charm Empty Fidelius Charm

Post  Potteraholic on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:35 am

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. It was copied/saved by Lady Arabella and reformatted/reposted by Potteraholic. ~Potteraholic


Phelim Mcintyre - Mar 30, 2006 12:38 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jun 28, 2006 4:40 am

I probably spelt the name wrong, but there has been a lot of discussion on this on the Mr. Ollivander thread about how much this charm covers. Could Ollivander be hidden in his shop under the charm? Could someone who is not the Secret keeper say that the Potter's were in Godric's Hollow (Hagrid to Harry, Minerva to Albus etc)? Could Kreacher, Snape or someone say the Order HQ was in London or not?
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Fidelius Charm Empty Fidelius Charm (posts #1 to #50)

Post  Potteraholic on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:38 am

Mattew Bates - Mar 30, 2006 10:19 am (#1 of 183)

Quite a bit of the discussion on the Godric's Hollow and Number 12 Grimmauld Place threads has been about the Fidelius charm and how it works, as well. I think the topic could benefit from a centralized discussion thread.




Finn BV - Mar 30, 2006 11:07 am (#2 of 183)

I think Jo has some explaining to do in an interview or in Book 7. The fact that you could peer into James and Lily's house window, and not see them (or not realize that they were hiding or something) is a little absurd. So I guess, hypothetically, Ollivander could be hiding in his shop if he performed the Fidelius Charm perhaps with Florean Fortescue?

It's so confusing!!




zelmia - Mar 30, 2006 11:42 am (#3 of 183)

I think the main question everyone seems to have is this:

Do those who have knowledge of the Secret prior to the Charm being performed retain that knowledge?

We have the example that Bellatrix must certainly know the location of 12GP. However she has never come knocking at the door. Now, is that because of the Fidelius Charm or because she knew it would be foolish to try such a thing, with that being the HQ of the OP and all.

But we also have the more confusing example of Sirius and Dumbledore apparently being fully aware of the Potter's hiding place in GH. Now, if they knew about this hiding place prior to the Charm and were able to retain that information, according to the laws of the Fidelius Charm, it seems Dumbledore would not have been able to simply tell Hagrid where to collect Harry. That would indicate (to me) that Hagrid must also have known where the Potters were prior to the Charm. Which is likely because he says they were friends.

But there is another perspective that we may not have considered. Could it be that there is a counteractive element to the Fidelius Charm having to do with betrayal? After all, Fidelius, as any US Marine can tell you, means "faithful; loyal". If the Secret Keeper betrays the very people he is meant to be protecting, perhaps this willful disloyalty simply negates the effects of the Charm.

I'm not talking about revealing the Secret to Order members, as Dumbledore did. I mean that Pettigrew revealed the Secret with the deliberate intention of harming those he was supposed to protect.

If this is the case, Dumbledore would have been able to tell Hagrid where to go, assuming Hagrid didn't know beforehand.




Finn BV - Mar 30, 2006 11:53 am (#4 of 183)

That is certainly my question.

The charm is also faulty in a realistic sense (as real as magic can get) because you could just as well "guess" the secret yourself, without anybody having told you. Still, if that is the case, that nobody's told you anything, you can't find out if you’re right or not until somebody tells you something.

Frustrating.

I would certainly opt that the best solution is that if you knew it before, your knowledge can't be taken away. Bellatrix knew where 12GP was, but she didn't know it was the HQ of the OP.




Puck - Mar 30, 2006 1:34 pm (#5 of 183)

I originally posted this on another thread, but copied over here!

I don't think even those who knew where the Potter's house was would be able to see/find it unless the Secret Keeper told them. So, if DD or Hagrid knew ahead and then went there, they could stand right next to it and not see the house unless Peter told them the Potters were there. There is a difference between knowing where they are and being able to find them.

Now, once the house is destroyed and James and Lily dead, I would think the charm would break, for there would no longer be a point. I can see DD with some kind of magical alarm alerting him an explosion in GH. Hagrid could then go and find Harry without hearing from Peter, as the charm would be null and void.

Hope this makes sense!




Finn BV - Mar 30, 2006 2:38 pm (#6 of 183)

That makes sense, but is the charm powerful enough to know when it is not needed? Suppose it "thought" that the Potters' bodies shouldn't even be found among the rubble, whether they were dead or not.




Magic Words - Mar 30, 2006 6:45 pm (#7 of 183)

Maybe there's some way for a secret-keeper to undo the spell itself. In that case, instead of personally telling Voldemort that the Potters lived in Godric's Hollow, Peter might have somehow lifted the charm so that anyone could find out.




zelmia - Mar 30, 2006 8:39 pm (#8 of 183)

That's sort of what I was saying, Magic Words. That perhaps the Secret Keeper can undo the Charm by deliberately revealing the Secret for the express purpose of harming the protectees. In other words, having deliberately failed in his duty as Secret Keeper, the Secret is no longer a secret and the information would be available to all.

Hence the need to get Harry out of there immediately.




Eponine - Mar 30, 2006 8:53 pm (#9 of 183)

I doubt the Secret Keeper is able to undo the charm, but the person who cast the charm could lift it.

As for the Potters' Fidelius Charm, the person who cast the charm was probably either Lily or James (my money's on Lily). The charm wasn't undone by Peter telling Voldemort where they were. It was undone by the death of the person who cast the charm.

But even if the charm was lifted, the information wouldn't just be out there. You would still have to be told unless it was something you had knowledge of before the Fidelius Charm.




Magic Words - Mar 30, 2006 9:08 pm (#10 of 183)

We don't know much about how a Fidelius Charm is cast. It could have been James or Lily who did the actual charm work. It could just as easily have been Peter himself, I would think. Or it might work more like an Unbreakable Vow, with a third person holding the wand. These two spells are linked in my mind for some reason, maybe because they both involve magically binding two people or parties.




zelmia - Mar 31, 2006 12:23 am (#11 of 183)

I agree, MW. The two Charms are linked in my mind as well and for the same reasons. It makes sense that a magical contract - which we've learned is binding through GF - would require a sort of third party verification in the form of a witness or separate person to cast the Charm.




Mattew Bates - Mar 31, 2006 3:52 pm (#12 of 183)

While I feel there are circumstances under which the charm can break, I don't think the death of the caster is one of them. I don't think JKR was playing coy with us when she answered the poll question. I think she was telling us that the Fidelius Charm is permanent, much like the Unplottable Charm that Sirius' relatives (all dead) put in 12GP.

To play the devil's advocate - if she did deliberately withhold the real trick to breaking a Fidelius Charm, she was able to because she'd phrased the question so she could answer it without giving relevant information. I just don't see JKR trying to trick us with how she phrased a poll question - that's where she goes to answer our questions, not further confound us.




Eponine - Mar 31, 2006 5:44 pm (#13 of 183)

Well, we know from HBP that a spell can be broken by the death of the caster, and it doesn't make sense for the Fidelius Charm to be unbreakable. Were the Potters planning on hiding for the rest of their lives? If someone had defeated Voldemort while they were under the charm, then they would have probably wanted to come out from hiding.




Puck - Mar 31, 2006 7:08 pm (#14 of 183)

I'm sure it is breakable, I think the question is, is it self-breaking? Does the charm need to be purposefully lifted, or will it break on it's own if the parties it protects have died? (I would believe the latter, but do not think the death of the person who set the charm -if it was a third party- would break the spell.)

BTW, how do you fit a cow inside a glass of coke?




Magic Words - Mar 31, 2006 7:45 pm (#15 of 183)

I wonder if the Potters could have broken the charm themselves simply by moving. If they were no longer at Godric's Hollow, no one would have to be told that they were.




zelmia - Mar 31, 2006 8:21 pm (#16 of 183)

FYI: The cow in the coke is from an old French and Saunders "White Room" sketch.

Well, if the Potters chose to move, then they could easily be recognised. Though it may cancel the Charm, it probably wouldn't be the wisest thing to do.




Puck - Apr 1, 2006 8:28 am (#17 of 183)

I wonder why Slughorn would choose to move from Muggle house to Muggle house, rather than live under the charm in one place?




Eponine - Apr 1, 2006 8:29 am (#18 of 183)

Maybe you can't be your own Secret Keeper, and he didn't want anyone to know where he was. Besides, Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to find him then, and Harry would have been without a Potions teacher.




zelmia - Apr 1, 2006 10:53 am (#19 of 183)

Were the Death Eaters really looking for Slughorn though? I thought he was just doing that as a precaution, since so many other folks had gone missing. But then I didn't really understand what Sluggy had that the DE's wanted.




Ginerva Potter - Apr 1, 2006 9:07 pm (#20 of 183)

Sluggy was the only one who knew what Tom Riddle was doing. Since Tom asked him about horcruxes, Slughorn knew what Voldemort had done to make himself immortal. That is why Voldemort would want Slughorn killed. JM2K...

Ginny




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 2, 2006 2:11 pm (#21 of 183)

That sounds like an excellent reason to want Slughorn dead to me. Slughorn took the job knowing that even thought it exposed him, he would still be under the protection of DD, so LV and the DE couldn't get to him. I don't know about anyone else, but I get the impression that Sluggy doesn't trust too many people, and that this is why he wouldn't want to perform the Fidelius charm with anyone.




TheSaint - Apr 2, 2006 9:05 pm (#22 of 183)

He is the only person Voldemort thinks knows about the horcruxes.




frogface - Apr 3, 2006 1:56 am (#23 of 183)

Also, lets not forget, he's probably a pretty well skilled Wizard. After all he was made head of Slytherin house once, and he certainly knows his potions. Plus he was a friend of Dumbledore's, so he could have a lot of useful information on what DD has been up to etc.




Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 3, 2006 5:37 am (#24 of 183)

I have just been rereading the FAQ pole answer on J K Rowling's official site. Here Jo speaks of everything in the past tense. Using the Potters and Wormtail as an example she says that the Secret Keeper tells knew the secret. Is it past tense because the place is now destroyed or is there something else goin on? Surely the rubble of a place would still be covered by the charm or was the subject of the charm the Potters so when they were killed the charm was disempowered? This makes sense as to the facts and cold explain why Hagrid etc knew where to find Harry. Also, why wasn't Harry protected by A Fidelius Charm? Does this mean it cannot work on a child?




Magic Words - Apr 3, 2006 11:45 am (#25 of 183)

We've been assuming (at least I have) that the charm protected James, Lily, and Harry. But maybe it was only James and Lily after all. If being included in the charm's protection required some kind of participation in its casting, chanting an incantation perhaps, Harry would have been too young to do it. Maybe his parents were just planning to keep him in the house at all times so he couldn't be discovered accidentally.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 3, 2006 7:38 pm (#26 of 183)

I never thought about it that way Magic Words. I always just assumed that the charm covered all three of them, but you can't assume everything. Hmmmmm I wonder how this thing works!!




Eponine - Apr 3, 2006 7:43 pm (#27 of 183)

If it worked that way, we'd have to assume that the charm for the OotP had to have every member participating in the casting which seems a little inconvenient to me.




Magic Words - Apr 4, 2006 5:25 pm (#28 of 183)

What exactly would be involved in hiding "headquarters?" Does it just hide the house, or does it protect every order member while they are in the house? With the Potters it would make sense that they would stay in the house as much as possible, but that wouldn't be feasible for the Order. I know there's an answer here somewhere... one charm protected the Potters themselves, the other protected "the Headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix," not the Order members themselves. So if Voldemort could have his nose pressed against the Potters' window and not see them, the equivalent might be seeing the people inside Grimmauld Place, but not recognizing them as Order members? Maybe? Sorry to be long and rambling, I'm trying to work this out as I go along.




Choices - Apr 5, 2006 10:08 am (#29 of 183)
Edited Apr 5, 2006 11:33 am

I think the charm protected the headquarters itself - you could not see the house and you could not see the members once they entered the house and closed the door (it seems they were always eager to close the door quickly - probably because of Mrs. Black though). Now, the charm on the Potters made it impossible to see them. I don't think the charm made the house invisible because it is mentioned that you could have your nose pressed up against the window and you wouldn't see anyone (how could you do that if you couldn't see the house?) - could it be that the charm only made the Potters invisible. You could see the house, but if you looked inside you could not see the Potters there. Maybe that's why it was not a problem for Hagrid or Sirius to find the house, it was only the Potters who were hidden.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 5, 2006 6:56 pm (#30 of 183)

Yes I think it works something like that. Harry didn't see 12GP until he read the note from DD telling him this so I think that the charm protected the house as a whole. It could be because the house was Unplottable, but I think that if someone like the Lestranges were to go there, they would be able to find it because they knew where it was, but if they looked in the window, then they wouldn't be able to see any member of the Order. this makes me wonder if non-order members (HRH and crew) would be visible?...

As for the Potters, I think the same thing goes for them. They were protected while in the house, yet the house was still visible to those who knew it was there.




Mattew Bates - Apr 10, 2006 9:50 am (#31 of 183)

"In other words, a secret (e.g., the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else ñ not even the subjects of the secret themselves ñ can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information." (emphasis mine)

Upon re-reading JKR's answer to the F.A.Q. poll, I was able to discern Ms. Rowling clarifying a point for us. She implies that one of the Potters could have been captured, so they could not have been individually hidden by the charm. The Fidelius Charm protecting the Potters must have made their location in Godric's Hollow a secret, because Pettigrew had to reveal a precise location to divulge the secret.

"As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" (PA10)

I believe too much has been made of the last words of this quote, without taking the rest into context. The quote is from Flitwick, who almost definitely did not know the particulars of the Potters' Fidelius Charm. It read to me as an expression of speech, not a statement of fact.




zelmia - Apr 10, 2006 1:00 pm (#32 of 183)

I beg to differ, Matthew. Since it is Flitwick - the Charms professor - who is explaining what the Fidelius Charm is, he most certainly does know "the particulars" of the Charm.

What I think these two explanations (Flitwick's and Jo's) tell us is something we've maybe overlooked: that the Fidelius Charm is not meant to keep just any ol' Secret (someone had given the example of the Prophecy room at the DOM). Its purpose is apparently specifically to conceal/protect a particular location. As such, the Charm is always the same. Those inside the location would be protected, but once they emerge, they are vulnerable.

What I am wondering now is how will Harry find the house/lot where the house used to be? Wormtail is still alive and hasn't told Harry the Secret. So that leads me back to my earlier thought that by revealing the Secret to Voldemort, Wormtail somehow cancelled it out. Hmm..... More thought needed.




Mattew Bates - Apr 10, 2006 1:20 pm (#33 of 183)

He knows the particulars of the charm in theory, zelmia - I'm not arguing that. But there was some discussion on the Godric's Hollow thread (that I'm trying to draw over here) over whether the charm was placed on the Potters themselves (resulting in people that can't be seen through their sitting room window), or the house they were staying in (where you can't find the house at all, much less the window to look through). My point there is that a teacher who has never been mentioned as a member of the Order would be unlikely to know whether the charm was cast on the people or the place.

I'm of the opinion that the Charm could be cast on people, but it would be problematic having your very existence a secret, and that the Charm is most effective when cast on a place. I'm certain that if I'm wrong about this theory, Flitwick could put me in my place. Smile




zelmia - Apr 13, 2006 12:24 pm (#34 of 183)

Yes, I understand you. And I am simply suggesting that the Charm cannot be cast directly upon the people; that it is intrinsic to the Fidelius Charm that it be cast in reference to a location, with the purpose of protecting the people inside.

Obviously I may be wrong, but it just seems to me that if the Fidelius Charm could be cast with regard to the location (or identity) of a person (or persons), Sirius would surely have done this (with perhaps Dumbledore as Secret Keeper) rather than live in a cave eating rats.




Magic Words - Apr 13, 2006 12:42 pm (#35 of 183)

On the other hand, if Sirius himself (rather than his location) were being kept a secret, he wouldn't be able to, say, stroll into the Hog's Head and rent a room because interacting with other people would be disclosing the secret.




azi - Apr 13, 2006 12:53 pm (#36 of 183)

Why bother having the Fidelius charm put on yourself when you could make yourself Unplottable? If you make yourself Unplottable then you don't risk a Secret Keeper telling the people who matter where you are.

I'm tempted to agree with Zelmia that the Fidelius charm may only be able to cast on locations etc. and not people.




zelmia - Apr 13, 2006 8:11 pm (#37 of 183)
Edited Apr 13, 2006 9:13 pm

That's a good idea, Azi. But, again, I have a hard time believing that a person could be made Unplottable. If that were possible, then Sirius needn't have worried about being found; and also Slughorn wouldn't have needed to keep moving around.

Oh, how I wish Jo would just publish a book of spells and charms and explain exactly how they work.




frogface - Apr 14, 2006 4:15 am (#38 of 183)

I'm sure a person CAN make themselves Unplottable. I'm sure there’s a quote somewhere that explains that a Wizard like Voldy or Sirius can make themselves Unplottable to stop other Wizards using Owls to track them down.




Eponine - Apr 14, 2006 6:34 am (#39 of 183)

There's a lot we don't know about the Fidelius Charm. I've often wondered if the Charm could be cast on information. If a couple of wizards killed someone and didn't want anyone to find out, could they cast the Fidelius charm and make the secret, 'The death of wizard 1 was caused by wizards 2 and 3?' We've only seen examples of two Fidelius Charms in canon, but there's nothing to indicate that the only thing it can hide is a location.

I think the Fidelius Charm could be used for a lot of nefarious purposes if it's possible to hide information and not just a location.




zelmia - Apr 14, 2006 3:26 pm (#40 of 183)
Edited Apr 14, 2006 4:28 pm

Again, I would have to respectfully disagree Eponine. The two examples we have of the Fidelius Charm from canon do indeed (to me) give every indication that the Charm can only be cast with regard to a location - if for no other reason than the author does not mention the Fidelius Charm in any other context.

However, I do concur with your curiosity about the Charm being used for "information". Actually, getting semantic, technical or just plain "nit-picky": a "location (of a hideout)" could be considered "information". If that is the case, then why not use the Charm to conceal nefarious (or other) deeds?




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 14, 2006 4:29 pm (#41 of 183)

I have to agree with you Eponine, there is no canon that the charm can be used for words, but there is also no canon that it can't be used this way. We need more info about this, but I do think that it could be used for info. (by the way I like your LSU peeps!!)




Eponine - Apr 14, 2006 4:38 pm (#42 of 183)

Well, the definition of the Fidelius Charm is defined as An immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it.

It just says a secret. It doesn't say location, and personally I don't think that two examples are enough to make a definite conclusion. There are a lot of ways to define 'secret.' I imagine the fact that it's an immensely complex spell precludes a lot of people from using it.

I know that the only times we've seen the spell involve hiding a location, but there's so little we know about the spell that I don't think we can definitely say that's all it can hide.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. =)




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 14, 2006 9:13 pm (#43 of 183)

An immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it.

When you read this carefully, you will see that the Fidelius Charm is for secrets in general. It just says that a secret is concealed inside someone so this means that it whatever you want to keep secret, you can conceal inside a single living soul. It doesn't matter what the secret is. The two times we have seen the charm used, it has been to keep a location secret, but really the charm could be used for any secret. We've gotten ourselves confused and we just need to remember that the charm simply keeps information secret, whether or not the secret is the location of a person, is irrelevant. Lily and James' secret was that they and their son were staying in a certain house in GH, so once they preformed the charm, then no one could find them, because they wouldn't know the secret.




zelmia - Apr 15, 2006 12:11 am (#44 of 183)

Well, actually "whether or not the secret it is the location of a person" is not irrelevant since it's kind of the point of this very Thread.

And I have to say that the more I think about it, the more Eponine's "information" object seems to make the most sense. Whether that particular "information" is the location of a secret group or person, or a secret such as "wizard 1 murdered wizard 2 or 3". It seems to me that "information" is precisely what the Fidelius Charm was designed to conceal.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 15, 2006 9:41 am (#45 of 183)

Yes that seems to be the only thing that makes sense to me. It just keeps the information secret. What I meant when I said :whether or not the secret is the location of a person, is irrelevant, I meant that whatever the secret information is, it is irrelevant because the charm will protect it, meaning that the charm isn't not going to protect info about a murder, but will protect a location. It doesn't matter, because both are secrets. Am I making sense? But I am sure that there is a limit to what the charm can keep secret, but that’s a different story.




zelmia - Apr 16, 2006 11:49 am (#46 of 183)

Oh, I see what you mean now, VE: that whatever the specific information is not relevant, but that the Fidelius Charm is used for concealing that information - whatever that might be. Gotcha!

Still, it does make me wonder why Sirius couldn't have used this Charm (with Dumbledore as Secret Keeper). He could have concealed his identity as an Animagus and roamed freely in his dog form whenever necessary. But perhaps since Wormtail knew this about him, it wouldn't have made any difference?




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 16, 2006 3:39 pm (#47 of 183)

My guess is that because Wormtail and many others(probably lots of DE) knew that Sirius was an Animagus, then the secret wouldn't be a secret to them. I don't see the charm having the power to strip someone of information that they already knew before the charm was cast. The MOM didn't know that Sirius was an Animagus so there really wasn't any point in casting the charm to protect the MOM from knowing this, and it would be useless as well because those who knew the secret prior to the charm, should still know after so there wouldn't be much point in it. The only hole I can see in this is that a DE, such as Malfoy, could walk into the MOM and tip them off about Sirius. Then the MOM could go out and get him. But maybe Sirius figured that since Wormtail knew, and the charm wouldn't affect him, that Wormtail could physically bring him into the MOM if he wanted. I don't know it just seems dumb not to.




Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 17, 2006 1:33 am (#48 of 183)

So, to take 12 Grimmauld Place as an example. Bella etc know where it is but, because Dumbledore did not tell them, do not know where that it is/was the Order's HQ? The information they knew before the charm was performed is still there for them to use, hence Dumbledore's concerns in Half-Blood Prince, but not the post-charm information. This also makes sense of Hermione's comment in OoP about Hedwig and Pig not being allowed out to fly every night. If Bella had heard about owls in that area she may have come visiting.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 17, 2006 8:56 am (#49 of 183)

Yes that’s what seem to be the answer, Bella could go to 12GP but should would not be able to find the headquarter of the Order, because that’s what the charm is protecting-the location of the Order. I think she would go there and beagle to find the house, but she wouldn't beagle to find any member of the Order inside, that is if she could get in, which I doubt(DD probably made sure that was taken care of).




zelmia - Apr 17, 2006 1:57 pm (#50 of 183)

I think we have a breakthrough at last!
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Fidelius Charm Empty Fidelius Charm (posts #51 to #100)

Post  Potteraholic on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:40 am

virginiaelizabeth - Apr 17, 2006 4:48 pm (#51 of 183)

YAY!!




Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 18, 2006 12:37 am (#52 of 183)

And there seems to be something about ownership as well. DD didn't appear to be worried about Bella appearing while Sirius owned the place, but he was after Sirius died. Could it be that the charm may not have been so powerful without the owner's permission? Or could Sirius's father have placed a charm on the door only letting those the owner wanted in? Therefore could Sirius have decided not to let the Malfoy's and Bella in but after he died, until Harry did the same, Bella et al were free to come and go?




Magic Words - Apr 18, 2006 6:52 am (#53 of 183)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 7:56 am

"Bella could go to 12GP but should would not beagle to find the headquarter of the Order." ~virginiaelizabeth

I think we've answered that question, Phelim. As long as the house belonged to Sirius, they weren't worried that Bella would decide to show up one day. But if the house were hers, she might. We don't know if the secret would hide everyone inside the house, just their status as Order members, or what. And it probably wouldn't affect people who weren't in the Order, like Kreacher.

Edit: It's interesting that Kreacher was able to pass information to Narcissa, but Narcissa apparently never wondered how Kreacher could know. It seems the charm also prevents people from reasoning out the secret on their own.




Soul Search - Apr 18, 2006 8:13 am (#54 of 183)

Magic Words,

"Kreacher was able to pass information to Narcissa, but Narcissa apparently never wondered how Kreacher could know. It seems the charm also prevents people from reasoning out the secret on their own."

I had thoughts about that too, but decided that Narcissa knew Kreacher was the Black family house elf and that Sirius had inherited #12 Grimmauld Place. Narcissa might have known that Sirius was Harry's godfather. She learned from Kreacher that Sirius was hiding at #12 Grimmauld Place and that Harry was with him ... but that's all. Nothing all that unusual.

There was nothing Kreacher told them that suggested that #12 Grimmauld Place was anything other than Sirius' home and hiding place.

Narcissa (and Lucius) didn't necessarily know that Sirius had been in the Order of the Phoenix, so wouldn't make that connection. Even if they knew Sirius had been in the order, they wouldn't automatically think that the Order would have outlaw Sirius Black back in their fold.

I don't think that anyone would make the connection that fifteen-year-old Harry would be associated with the Order of the Phoenix in any way. It could even be suggested that any place Harry was would not be associated with the Order, to keep each safe from the other.




Choices - Apr 18, 2006 8:39 am (#55 of 183)

The Order was founded to fight against Voldemort and the DE's. Harry Potter is "The One" who is destined to vanquish Voldemort. I think anyone who can put 2 and 2 together (and get 4) would figure that Harry and the Order are connected.




haymoni - Apr 18, 2006 8:53 am (#56 of 183)

I thought the only thing Narcissa found out was Sirius's relationship to Harry.

That was why Voldy showed Sirius being tortured.

I don't have my books with me so don't throw the dung bombs too hard!




Magic Words - Apr 18, 2006 9:47 am (#57 of 183)

You're right, haymoni, that's all Kreacher could tell her. But it would imply that both Sirius and Harry spent a fair amount of time in Kreacher's presence- at 12GP.




haymoni - Apr 18, 2006 10:08 am (#58 of 183)

I never made the relationship/#12 connection.

I didn't think anyone knew where Sirius was - it seemed to be common knowledge that Harry was Sirius's godson, but I wonder how Kreacher communicated their closeness to Narcissa???

"My Master, the lowest of the Blacks, has befriended the Potter brat. They rarely see each other, but Kreacher knows the Potter brat's weakness for family."




zelmia - Apr 18, 2006 11:12 am (#59 of 183)

Actually, I think Magic Words has it spot on. If we are finally understanding the strengths and limits of the Fidelius Charm, Kreacher could pretty much tell Bella and Lucius outright that Dumbledore et al were using the Black Family mansion as the OP HQ. (Hm. I wonder what they would actually hear if that were the case...)

Obviously we don't know what Kreacher told them, but clearly Voldemort, at least, was able to "put 2 and 2 together" as Choices puts it. Voldemort was able to lure Harry out of Dumbledore's protection by using the image of Sirius's torture as bait. He could also kill two wizards with one spell, as it were, by having Harry collect the Prophecy as well.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 18, 2006 1:29 pm (#60 of 183)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 2:30 pm

This does make me wonder what exactly the limits are. I always thought that Kreacher couldn't say anything about what was going on in 12GP because his master(Sirius) ordered him not to say anything, but Kreacher pulled a Dobby and went out and blabbed anyway. I'm probably wrong but that’s how I interpreted it and I never thought about it the other way before reading all these post....




Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 19, 2006 12:16 am (#61 of 183)

Magic Words - my question is whether there is some other charm in operation. Could Sirius have activated something his dad put on the house concerning undesirables to keep Bella out which would have been deactivated if Bella had inherited the house. Would Harry need to reactivate this charm? If not how will they keep the building safe from Snape? Or will Harry battle with Snape as the only Death Eater able to get into Grimmauld Place.

Also, something my sister picked up. The note Harry read in OoP said 12 Grimmauld Place, London. When DD mention Grimmauld Place he omitted the London. Does this mean that they do not know the secret. Could there be another Grimmauld Place in the UK? Does the charm have to be this specific?




Sconie Girl - Apr 19, 2006 8:44 am (#62 of 183)

I thought that Kreacher could NOT give away info on the Order because he wasn't the Secret Keeper, per Dumbledore. But Sirius didn't think to forbid certain information revealing, like how he felt about Harry, to Kreacher.

So then when Kreacher went to Narcissa's he told her all about how Sirius felt like a father figure and how Harry cared for Sirius, but that's it. Am I wrong, it's been a while?




haymoni - Apr 19, 2006 9:30 am (#63 of 183)

That's how I read it, Sconie Girl.

I'm guessing though that at first, Narcissa would have reacted much like Petunia upon seeing Kreacher in her home!




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 19, 2006 6:39 pm (#64 of 183)

That actually sounds closer to the truth! I just figured that they didn't include Kreacher in the secret but now that I think about it they would almost have to!




Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 19, 2006 11:59 pm (#65 of 183)

I think that Kreacher could not share where the Order's HQ was due to him not being the Secret Keeper. As to not being able to share the other information I think Sirius commanded Kreacher not to. This is why neither he, when Hermione suggested it in OoP, or Harry were able to just set the house elf free. Kreacher being free he would have been able to spill the beans on the Order's discussions at Grimmauld Place.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 20, 2006 8:46 am (#66 of 183)
Edited Apr 20, 2006 9:46 am

Good point Phelim, the charm cast on 12GP protected the location of the Order, but not any of their information they talked about. So any member of the Order could go out and spill the beans about what they were doing, but they couldn't have told anyone where they were planning all of this stuff. The same goes for Kreacher. Sirius said that they couldn't set him free because he knows too much, or something along those lines.




Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 20, 2006 9:33 am (#67 of 183)

Thank you Virginiaelizabeth. My thoughts about Bella possibly turning up at the start of HBP are along similar lines. That the Fidelius Charm on a building needs the owner's permission. If the charm would have protected the Order from Bella, she could be in the house but not see the members of the Order, why did DD take the precaution of moving the Order out of Grimmauld Place? Did the Fidelius charm need Sirius's and then Harry's permission to exist?




Sconie Girl - Apr 20, 2006 12:00 pm (#68 of 183)

Another question, if Kreacher and Snape (if he's really a baddy) were unable to tell the location, but could tell its members and activities, why didn't either spill the beans to Voldy? He could have spent the year picking off Order members.

Does the charm somehow also prevent disclosure beyond the location of the Order's Headquarters?




Magic Words - Apr 20, 2006 12:21 pm (#69 of 183)

Sconie Girl, Kreacher was forbidden from directly speaking about most of the Order's activities. He could tell about Sirius' relationship with Harry because Sirius never thought to forbid that.

Snape, even if you believe he wanted to betray the Order, had to keep his cover. If Voldemort picked off too many Order members on Snape's information, Dumbledore might have gotten suspicious enough to figure out what was going on.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 20, 2006 12:53 pm (#70 of 183)

If the charm would have protected the Order from Bella, she could be in the house but not see the members of the Order, why did DD take the precaution of moving the Order out of Grimmauld Place? Did the Fidelius charm need Sirius's and then Harry's permission to exist? Phelim

I think that he moved them out just in case the house fell to Bella. Regardless of her knowing if it was headquarters or not, they wouldn't want her to be in the house. I think he did it just to be on the safe side, make sure there wasn't a small loophole in the charm, that could give them away. Better safe than sorry!




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 22, 2006 8:33 am (#71 of 183)

I posted this on another thread but it fits better here:

Hagrid says, "I got him out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around.

Does this mean that the Fidelius charm did wear off once the Potter's were murdered?? If Muggles could see enough to start swarming around, then it must have.




Choices - Apr 22, 2006 8:44 am (#72 of 183)

Good catch virginiaelizabeth - it must have ended. Perhaps that means that Lily cast the charm, and when she died, it was removed.




geauxtigers - Apr 22, 2006 8:54 am (#73 of 183)

But then we are left with the thought that if DD is keeper for the Order, then if he really is dead, anyone could find 12GP. But if lets say it depends on the caster, for example if Sirius cast the spell, for DD to be Secret Keeper, then when Sirius died, would the spell be broken? Very confusing and lots to think about! I'm not sure we have enough info on this, unless someone knows something I haven't mentioned!




Choices - Apr 22, 2006 9:06 am (#74 of 183)

I think we are just going to have to wait until JKR tells us what happened. Even if Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper and the secret died with him, there are still the enchantments that Mr. Black put on the house. The Order vacated the house after Sirius died until it could be determined if Harry was the legal heir. I don't think we are told where they are meeting in the mean time and we didn't hear much about the Order's activities in HBP - we just saw individual members at the Burrow and at Hogwarts/Hogsmeade, but not them meeting at a headquarters. Maybe a new headquarters will be established in book 7 with a new Secret Keeper (if Dumbledore is still "sleeping").




zelmia - Apr 22, 2006 10:45 am (#75 of 183)

Jo told us on her web site that when the Secret Keeper dies, the Secret remains intact, and only those who knew the Secret prior to the SK's death will know the information. So I am guessing that the reason Dumbledore had the Order moved out of 12GP was not because of anything to do with the Secret, but because there was no way of knowing who would be the new owner: Harry or someone from the Black family.

I think where the Secret/Revelation... thingy.... gets confusing is precisely because of Hagrid's ability to fetch Harry from GH. That leads me back to my original thought that it must have something to do with Wormtail's evil intentions, with regard to the Secret he kept.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 22, 2006 1:08 pm (#76 of 183)

Maybe... when the caster dies, the secret is lost. But if you are the Secret Keeper, you cannot be the caster too. This would make sense as to how both situations turn out. James or Lily could have been the caster and Wormtail, the Secret Keeper. So when they died, the secret was released. Sirius could have been the caster for 12GP, and once he died, the secret was revealed. It just needed to be recast to further protect it.




zelmia - Apr 22, 2006 3:08 pm (#77 of 183)
Edited Apr 22, 2006 4:10 pm

That's a good idea, VE. But there really would be little point in having a Secret Keeper if, when the Castor died, the Secret would be revealed anyway.

And I don't think we've been told that the Secret Keeper cannot also be the Castor. It actually kind of makes sense that they are the same person, in some ways.




Mattew Bates - Apr 24, 2006 9:42 am (#78 of 183)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 10:43 am

virginiaelizabeth, I posted back in post #12 on why I don't think the death of the caster enters into the equation. Long story short, I believe JKR has given us all the info she considers pertinent on the permanence of the Fidelius Charm.

This is a guess, but the secret may have been phrased as "The Potters are living at 123 Muggle Lane (or whatever the address was) in Godric's Hollow." James and Lily were no longer living, and Harry is a singular Potter, not multiple. I believe the charm may have been broken because its secret was no longer true. Similarly, Members of the Order were only hidden when they were at 12GP. That charm may be breakable if they permanently relocate their headquarters.




zelmia - Apr 24, 2006 11:04 am (#79 of 183)

That actually makes perfect sense, Mattew (do you mean to spell your name like that?). It did seem, from the moment Harry read Dumbledore's note regarding GP, that precise wording of the information is key.




virginiaelizabeth - Apr 24, 2006 1:27 pm (#80 of 183)

That actually sounds like the most logical way for it to work. If the secret is no longer true, then it would only make sense to say that the secret isn't a secret anymore.




Steve Newton - May 3, 2006 12:27 pm (#81 of 183)

There would have to be some MOM ethical constraints on its use. Say a highly competitive, upstart, business, Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes for instance, was competing with an established concern, Zonko's for instance. What is to stop the Weasley's putting a Fidelius Charm on Zonko's? I would think that only the Weasley's being able to find Zonko's would hurt Zonko's business a tad.




Mattew Bates - May 3, 2006 12:51 pm (#82 of 183)

Steve, perhaps one needs the permission of the owner of property in order to properly hide it with a Fidelius Charm. I imagine trying to cast one without it would have the success rate of shouting "Expecto Patronum" without thinking happy thoughts.




virginiaelizabeth - May 3, 2006 2:21 pm (#83 of 183)

Yes I must be something like that. You probably need both parties to participate, or have the owner’s permission for it to work. This may explain the whole 12GP thing, once the owner died, the Order needed to make sure that the house didn't fall into some one else’s hand (aka Bella) so that’s why they vacated it, but then they got permission from Harry. I'm pretty sure this has been said before in more detail but I think I disagreed with it but now I think it’s the most logical....




Phelim Mcintyre - May 3, 2006 11:56 pm (#84 of 183)
Edited May 4, 2006 12:57 am

virginiaelizabeth - this is what I was trying to argue (I do so on the 12 Grimmauld Place Thread). Thanks Steve and Matthew for finding such workable examples. For the twins to Fidelius Zonko's would be unethical (but very Gred and Forge).




virginiaelizabeth - May 4, 2006 11:27 am (#85 of 183)

I think that the problem was is that I couldn't visualize a situation that would make permission from the owner necessary, but now I see that it could be a huge problem and the charm would almost have to work this way, I just must have overlooked it!




Esther Rose - May 23, 2006 10:31 am (#86 of 183)
Edited May 23, 2006 11:34 am

I just had a thought.

What if there was more than one Fidelius Charm? One for the James and Lily's location and One for Harry.

If I understand correctly, the Potters were in hiding because Harry was in the most mortal danger. The ultimate goal was to save Harry. If this was the case then it would make sense to have a separate Fidelius Charm on Harry just incase something would happen to both James and Lily. Two Fidelius Charms two Secret Keepers.

Oh heck. Who am I kidding.

This would have to mean that Harry would have to be in the same room the entire time the Potters were in hiding and to know where James or Lily were you would know where Harry was, just not which room. And for the other Secret Keeper, if they knew where Harry Potter was then they would also know where James and Lily were they just wouldn't be able to see them. Then there is this whole thing about the AK curse mixed with a Fidelius Charm. In the fact that we don't know what would happen if someone AK’d in the direction of someone under the Fidelius Charm but couldn't see them.

All this is making my head hurt. Too much random thinking. Continue.




geauxtigers - May 23, 2006 6:26 pm (#87 of 183)

I wonder if Lily or James could’ve been Secret Keeper? DD was for the Order and he was in it and hid in 12GP etc., why wouldn't the same apply to others? It takes a lot of trust to keep this in the soul of someone you trust. James and Lily never though peter would betray them, why would they have to have him anyway?




zelmia - May 30, 2006 12:09 pm (#88 of 183)

If anything, I would think that, if that was the case, then that Dumbledore was the SK for Harry. Recall that when he collects Harry at the beginning of HBP, he refers openly to "the charms I placed..." on Harry during his time at Privet Drive and asks the Dursleys to allow Harry to come back one more time.




essie125 - Sep 23, 2006 7:07 am (#89 of 183)
Edited Sep 23, 2006 7:37 am

Fidelius charm in general!

I have read about the Fidelius charm on several different threads, but nowhere is it explained how it works.

this is what we do know from JKR -The Fidelius charm is used to house a secret inside a single person. This secret could be anything, an address, like the address of number 12 Grimmauld Place or the Potters hide out in Godric's Hollow.

-No one will find out the secret unless the Secret Keeper has told them. Like DD telling Harry the address to 12 Grimmauld place. If anyone else would have told him, would he not have been able to see anything?

-A secret dies with the Secret Keeper.

-the charm is very difficult to do. A lot of wizards, and witches would not be able to do it.

Now in the books we know of two instances where the Fidelius charm is used.

1. At no.12 Grimmauld Place: the secret is the address of the house, or the house itself and the Secret Keeper is DD. 2. The Potters hideout at Godric's Hollow, where again the address or the house is the secret and the Secret Keeper is Peter Pettigrew/Wormtail.

From the books we can gather that DD cast the charm for 12. Grimmauld Place and that he made himself Secret Keeper. obviously, because it went so wrong the other time the charm was used.

But how does this work?

DD did not know that Peter was Secret Keeper for James and Lily. So obviously the Secret Keeper does not have to be present when the charm is cast. We do not know whether or not DD knew where the Potters went into hiding, but I always assumed that he did not know either. So he was not anywhere near the house when he cast the charm either. Or the knowledge is erased from all those people's memories as soon as the charm is cast.

Unless of course DD was not the charm caster in the 2nd case. Lily was good at casting charms, but was she good enough to cast a Fidelius charm? So as you can all see I am left with a lot of different questions concerning this topic and I had hoped you could help me.

What do you think about this charm?




Pamzter - Sep 23, 2006 6:45 am (#90 of 183)
Edited Sep 23, 2006 8:07 am

Why would the Order have to move out of 12 Grimmauld Place after Sirius died if DD was the Secret Keeper? There must some "rule" about the owner.




juliebug - Sep 23, 2006 7:00 am (#91 of 183)

Dumbledore said that they moved because the ownership of Grimmauld place was in question. Had the house and more importantly, Kreacher had passed into the ownership of Bellatrix Black Lestrange, the Death Eaters would have very easily gotten a great deal of information about the Order. I also think that if Bellatrix owned the house, something would allow her to find it.




Anna L. Black - Sep 24, 2006 6:32 am (#92 of 183)

essie, it doesn't say anywhere that Dumbledore was the caster of the Fidelius in the Potters' case. On the contrary, he couldn't have been, because then he must have known who was the Secret-Keeper. I don't think that the Fidelius can be performed without the Secret-Keeper's presence.




Choices - Sep 24, 2006 10:32 am (#93 of 183)

Since the Fidelius Charm is a charm, and Lily's wand was especially good for charms, I'm guessing Lily performed the Fidelius Charm on her, James and Peter.




essie125 - Sep 25, 2006 3:17 am (#94 of 183)
Edited Sep 25, 2006 4:20 am

Choices , that is exactly what i thought. i said so on the 'why did DD have the cloak" thread, but unfortunately no one seemed to have picked up on it.

I also believe that Lily was the caster of the Fidelius charm in the Potters' case.

and JULIEBUG

if DD says that only two people know the full content of the prophecy, that does not know that Lily and James could not have known that LV was after Harry. Maybe DD did not say why he was after him, just that there was a prophecy which may put both Harry’s and Neville’s life in danger.

I'm sure this is enough for any parent to go into hiding.




Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 27, 2006 5:54 am (#95 of 183)
Edited Sep 27, 2006 6:55 am

The Fidelius charm was specifically about 12 Grimmauld Place being the Order's HQ. I don't know how this would affect Bella if she visited the house anyway to find an heirloom or similar. Could she find the house but not the order members? If this is the case then Bella could have gone to the house and Kreacher would have spilled the beans if Bella had owned the house elf.

If Dumbledore knew where the house was after hearing of Voldemort's attack would he need to know the secret? Also, did the charm cease when the caster (Lily) died, as the freezing charm on Harry did when Dumbledore died?

We know that St Mungo's appears on the outside as a derelict department store, Hogwarts as a ruined castle, and that Muggles can’t even see the Leaky Cauldron or Platform 9 3/4 so would the house in Godric's Hollow just appear empty to passers by unless, like 12 Grimmauld Place, it was Unplottable? Flitwick mentions people being able to look in the window and not see anything unless they know the secret somewhere in Prisoner of Azkaban, so there are more things about this charm we need to know and JKR isn't telling us.




Die Zimtzicke - Sep 27, 2006 8:33 pm (#96 of 183)

I've read the thread and I still can't figure out two things. I was hoping you had all solved them for me. Sigh.

1) Can you cast a Fidelius on any house? It would be pretty awful if someone cast one on your house so you couldn't even find your own property!

2) If Godric's Hollow was under a Fidelius and Peter was the Secret Keeper, how did Hagrid get Harry out of the ruins of the house?

Does anyone else agree that these two questions have still not been answered beyond a shadow of a doubt?




Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 28, 2006 12:15 am (#97 of 183)

No Die these two questions haven't been answered.

1) Flitwick states that Voldemort could have looked through the window of where the Potters were and not seen them unless the Secret Keeper had told him the secret. This issue is the big one about why the Order had to leave number 12. If the Fidelius Charm needed the owners’ permission would the charm cease to operate? And no we don't know the answer.

2) We know what happens when the Secret Keeper dies - the secret dies with them. We don't know what happens if the caster dies. We know other spells cease to operate with the death of the caster but others (like those on 12 Grimmauld Place) do not. As to the Fidelius charm we don't know either way.




haymoni - Sep 28, 2006 5:09 am (#98 of 183)

We also don't know what happens if people already know the secret before the charm is cast.

Do they keep on knowing the secret, but they just can't tell anybody?

Do they know the secret, but can no longer see the building, see the people, see whatever?




S.E. Jones - Sep 28, 2006 12:35 pm (#99 of 183)

haymoni --Do they know the secret, but can no longer see the building, see the people, see whatever?--

That would be my guess, haymoni, as Narcissa obviously recognized Kreacher and probably knew where the house was, but never seemed to show up knocking on the front door. She may have recognized the house was under the Fidelius (by something Kreacher said) but since he couldn't tell her the secret knew she wouldn't be able to see the house, even if she already knew where it was. That's my take on it.




haymoni - Sep 28, 2006 12:47 pm (#100 of 183)

Unless she could never go to her uncle's home unless he released some of the protections he had placed on it. She may have never really known where it was.

Or...she could have gone to the house but didn't see anyone there because of the charm.
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Fidelius Charm Empty Fidelius Charm (posts #101 to #140)

Post  Potteraholic on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:53 am

Thom Matheson - Sep 28, 2006 12:48 pm (#101 of 183)

If Kreacher didn't know the secret of #12 and couldn't tell Narcissa, how did he get back in to the house later?




S.E. Jones - Sep 28, 2006 1:03 pm (#102 of 183)
Edited Sep 28, 2006 2:04 pm

We don't know that he didn't know the secret, just that he couldn't tell it to anyone else since he wasn't the Secret-Keeper.

Being a house-elf, Kreacher may be joined to the house in such a way that the Fidelius couldn't keep in out (we know that elf magic sometimes works differently than wizard magic, hence them being able to "Apparate" inside Hogwarts), or he may be in on the secret either because Dumbledore told him or because he was in the house when it was cast.




haymoni - Sep 28, 2006 1:03 pm (#103 of 183)

House elf magic???




S.E. Jones - Sep 28, 2006 1:05 pm (#104 of 183)

haymoni --House elf magic???--

Yeah, what about it?




haymoni - Sep 28, 2006 1:06 pm (#105 of 183)

Sorry - I was trying to answer the question.




S.E. Jones - Sep 28, 2006 1:07 pm (#106 of 183)
Edited Sep 28, 2006 2:08 pm

I know, haymoni, I'm just being a pain....




haymoni - Sep 29, 2006 5:46 am (#107 of 183)

Well, admitting you have a problem is the first step towards wellness!!!

This Fidelius Charm just bugs me. She's going to have to write an essay or something on how it all works.

Horcruxes, too!




S.E. Jones - Sep 29, 2006 1:12 pm (#108 of 183)
Edited Sep 29, 2006 2:13 pm

--Well, admitting you have a problem is the first step towards wellness!!!--

How true, how true....

I agree, we just don't know enough about this Charm. There are some things we can kinda assume though, I think. I always had a problem with how they got baby Harry into the house in Godric's Hollow, so it must be true that either you are automatically in on the secret if you're in the house when the charm is cast or you are automatically in on the secret if it's about you (the Potters' location is about the Potters). Otherwise, how would you explain the location to a one-year-old? Harry, at 15, had to memorize Dumbledore's note and then concentrate on it before he could see #12 Grimmauld Place.




Anna L. Black - Oct 13, 2006 5:11 am (#109 of 183)

Two weeks ago, after reading the last few posts in this thread and the "James's cloak" thread (which dealt with a few questions concerning the Fidelius), I just sat down, and wrote everything I thought about the Fidelius Charm. This resulted in an essay, that was finally published yesterday on the Lexicon itself! Here is the link.

I can't even start describing how excited I am - this is about as high as a HP fan can go, apart from meeting with Rowling or something And I feel that I never could've done it without you guys, so thank you!




valuereflection - Oct 17, 2006 8:31 am (#110 of 183)

Congratulations, Anna L. Black! I enjoyed your essay.

How did you get your essay published by the Lexicon? The posters on the "Marietta Edgecombe" thread asked me to convert my posts into an essay for the Lexicon. That's a scary idea. Furthermore, I don't know where to begin. Would you please advise me. If you think it would be more appropriate, its fine to send me a private e-mail. (One uniquely troubling problem is that I quoted several forum members word-for-word because I felt that their actual wording was integral to my reasoning.) Thank you for the help.




Anna L. Black - Oct 18, 2006 1:13 pm (#111 of 183)
Edited Oct 18, 2006 2:33 pm

valuereflection, I've sent you an email

Edit: Or at least, I tried to... Both my Yahoo and Gmail emails are getting stuck for some reason. But I'm still trying Smile




valuereflection - Oct 19, 2006 8:25 am (#112 of 183)

Thanks, Anna L. Black. I hope your email service will be fixed soon. I'm really looking forward to your message. I haven't received it yet.




S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2006 7:26 pm (#113 of 183)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 8:27 pm

Okay, here are some posts concerning the Fidelius Charm I ran across recently. I thought they might give us some interesting thoughts for discussion.

------------------------------------------

From the "R.A.B. - Your Thoughts?" thread:

Derek Robertson - Oct 19, 2006 5:32 pm (#1352)

S.E. Jones you said:

"Oh, I don't see Dobby leaving his Harry Potter with the likes of Kreacher. He'd be there just to make sure Kreacher did what he was told as a good elf should...."

But how can dobby find Grimmauld Place? He hasn't been shown its location by the (dead) Secret Keeper?

------------------------------------------

shadzar - Oct 19, 2006 6:27 pm (#1353)

We don't know that the secret is still kept either. We have problems and mysteries left unanswered about FC. If Sirius cast the FC then, like the Full Body Bind cast on Harry on the Tower; does it go away after the caster dies?

Nobody went to 12GP in HBP, so we don't know who can find it, only that it now belongs to Harry.

------------------------------------------

TheSaint - Oct 19, 2006 11:35 pm (#1354)

Shadzar, We do know.

Result of F.A.Q. Poll (SPOILER WARNING) What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies? I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that I'd have voted for - but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is what you want to know!

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (e.g., the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else ñ not even the subjects of the secret themselves ñ can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.

-------------

The secret remains a secret.

------------------------------------------

S.E. Jones - Oct 19, 2006 11:56 pm (#1355)

Still, we don't know if the Fidelius has to be cast by the Secret-Keeper or if it can be cast by someone else. We don't know how that would relate to the answer JKR gave us. Also, as Dumbledore had everyone vacate Grimmauld Place when Sirius ceased to be the owner, then a building changing owners must affect the charm somehow.

There's also the problem around how Hagrid saw Harry, which could suggest that once the building mentioned in the secret is gone, the secret ceases to be a secret (this isn't the same as the Secret-Keeper dying in JKR's answer). That, in itself, suggests that a secret isn't always a secret. The charm has a beginning and can have an end. JKR's answer "the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death" also suggest that the status of the secret can change from "secret" to "no longer secret".

Yes, we still have a lot of unanswered questions about the Fidelius Charm.

------------------------------------------

TheSaint - Oct 20, 2006 6:13 am (#1356)

I believe the previous thought in regard to the Fidelius and Godric’s Hollow was the Charm was broken when the Secret Keeper revealed the information to the one they were hiding from. That and the subjects of the charm were dead.

Number 12 is a whole other circumstance. The charm is on the house (is it not?) as opposed to a living being.

------------------------------------------

Die Zimtzicke- Oct 20, 2006 6:54 am (#1357)

Do we know or not know whether Dumbledore changed the charm at all when the Order had to leave #12? He seemed to me to be worried that Bella or someone else would gain some interest in the house at some point. I can't see how you could cast a Fidelius on someone else's house without their permission. You could just go around stealing any house you wanted if that were the case. I can't see how a Fidelius can bar a rightful owner from their own property. That just seems so wrong to me.

------------------------------------------

shadzar - Oct 20, 2006 7:03 am (#1358)

no, not when the secret-keeper dies. there is no secret-keeper or the like in my analogy of the Full Body Bind DD cast on Harry on the tower.

What happens when the caster of the FC dies? Assuming Lily cast the charm in Godric, she died and the spell no longer functioned. That would be how Hagrid found Harry. Likewise when Sirius died the FC no longer functioned on 12GP if he cast it. If he didn't then who did? No one went to 12GP in HBP. If DD cast the FC, and was its secret-keeper, then his death could have lifted the FC.

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T Vrana - Oct 20, 2006 7:11 am (#1359)

Was the FC cast on #12 Grimmauld, just that it was the OOTP headquarters?

That is, if Sirius grew up there, Bella, as his cousin must know it is there. If she were to arrive there and could not find it, wouldn't she know it was under a FC? So, even if the charm was in place, if Bella inherited it, she would show up expecting to walk in and find nothing. But, she could then assume the FC and have DEs hang out in the general vicinity.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2006 12:49 pm (#1360)

It could be that the secret broke when they were revealed to Voldemort, but wouldn't that require Voldemort to somehow be worked into the secret (i.e. 'The Potters are hiding from Voldemort at Godric's Hollow' or something to that effect?).... I don't think that was the case. Also, not all the Potters died, so if the spell were on them and not their house, the charm should still have been active, at least for Harry. In her answer of what happens when a Secret-Keeper dies, she uses the example of the Potters' location, which makes me think, like #12 Grimmauld Place, the charm was on the house.

I think you're on to something with the owner having to give permission for the charm to work as Dumbledore comments that "We do not know whether the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it, for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that ownership has passed from Sirius's hands. It might be that Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any moment." This not only suggests that you are right about permission needing to be granted, but that the Fidelius wouldn't be able to hide a person's own property from them.

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From the "Why did Dumbledore have James's cloak?" thread

valuereflection - Oct 21, 2006 6:02 pm (#808)

How I think Dumbledore got James' cloak: The Order members were all very busy eluding the Death Eaters, so all of their cloaks were being used -- except for James's cloak, because he was hiding under the Fidelius charm. So DD asked to borrow it. DD didn't need to know where James was hiding in order to ask him -- all DD needed to do was send an owl. Owls delivered Harry's mail to Sirius in GoF even though Harry didn't know where he was hiding. When James received DD's note, he could have just rolled the cloak into a small packet and given it to that owl to take back to DD.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2006 7:36 pm (#809)

Did any owl, not from Hogwarts, come to Grimmauld Place while it was under the Fidelius Charm? We know Hedwig was there, but she may have gone to the Burrow first and have been physically brought by the Weasleys when they came. If the Hogwarts owls had been sent by Dumbledore himself, the Order's Secret Keeper, it would make sense that they could find the house. I'm a little dubious that any owl could find a house concealed by the Fidelius Charm unless physically brought in by someone in the know, or sent by the Secret-Keeper.

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So, any thoughts anyone wants to add in?




valuereflection - Oct 22, 2006 5:42 am (#114 of 183)
Edited Oct 22, 2006 6:44 am

valuereflection - Oct 21, 2006 #810

Harry used Hedwig twice to send Sirius messages while he was living alone at Grimmauld Place during the OotP school year. He told her, "This is for Sirius," without saying where Sirius was or consulting the Secret-Keeper. McGonagall asked Harry if he had been sending owl messages to Grimmauld Place. When he answered yes, she reminded him of the unusual current situation where the Ministry was monitoring the owl post. (Of course Umbridge managed to use her Ministry authority to intercept Hedwig on her final return trip to Hogwarts...)

Remember what Ron said about Hedwig and Pigwidgeon in OotP chapter 6: "We can't let them out to hunt every night. Dumbledore doesn't want too many owls swooping around the square, thinks it'll look suspicious." He implies that the owls were allowed outside occasionally but not too often. How did they find their way back to the house?

From JKR's website: In 'Prisoner of Azkaban', why couldn't the Ministry of Magic have sent Sirius an owl, and then followed it, to find him? Answer: Just as wizards can make buildings Unplottable, they can also make themselves untraceable. Voldemort would have been found long ago if it had been as simple as sending him an owl! This sounded to me like Sirius selectively blocked mail from the Ministry of Magic, during GF and OotP, while he simultaneously accepted owls from Harry and Dumbledore. Perhaps James did something similar?

S.E. Jones, you're right, we don't know exactly how owl post is affected by the Fidelius charm.

Another idea how DD got James' cloak might be that DD asked Sirius (believing he was the Secret-Keeper) to give his message to James, "May I use your cloak." Because Sirius was in on the secret of the Potters' location, he then visited James and told him DD's message.

S.E. Jones replied to my comments here, from Post #811 of the "Why did Dumbledore have James's cloak?" thread:

Thanks, I'd forgotten that line (Ron speaking about Hedwig and Pigwidgeon). There are just so many questions about the Fidelius Charm. Why can owls find a building under the Charm? Does this mean any sort of animal could find a building protected this way or is it only owls (something unique to their magic)? (Or, is it that those two particular owls could find it simply because they came with the Weasleys who are in on the secret?) If any animal could, could someone in Animagus form?




Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 22, 2006 7:50 am (#115 of 183)

There is the same issue about Fawkes. Is part of his magic that he could go to places hidden by the Fidelius Charm?




Soul Search - Oct 22, 2006 12:06 pm (#116 of 183)

I would think that someone who was privy to the "secret" could send an owl to the place, but someone who wasn't in on the secret couldn't.

Harry was communicating with Ron and Hermione from Privet Drive, but I don't think Hedwig was mentioned. Ron, could have used Pig, who had been there, and so could return.




valuereflection - Oct 22, 2006 1:15 pm (#117 of 183)

While still at Privet Drive during OotP, Harry sent Hedwig to deliver letters to both Ron and Hermione, without being in on the secret, in fact without having even a clue where they were at the time. He instructed her to peck them each mercilessly until they wrote him replies. When Harry arrived at Grimmauld Place, he knew that Hedwig had successfully flown there before his arrived, because he saw Hedwig's scratches on his friends’ arms.




Soul Search - Oct 23, 2006 6:27 am (#118 of 183)

valuereflection, good point.

So, it seems Harry could send an owl to a PERSON who was at a place protected by a Fidelius charm, even though Harry did not know the secret, or even where they were. We also saw examples of Harry sending Hedwig to Sirius, even though Harry didn't know where Sirius was. Seems similar.

The Fidelius charm was about "The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix," not #12 itself, alone. Yet, Harry could not see #12 until he concentrated on the note. Not quite consistent, if you ask me.




S.E. Jones - Oct 23, 2006 1:26 pm (#119 of 183)

I think it's consistent, Soul Search. The secret was "The headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London." So, while it is a secret protecting the Order HQ, it does include the actual address, which is why Harry couldn't see the building.




Die Zimtzicke - Oct 24, 2006 8:32 am (#120 of 183)

Again, though, could it mean anything that Dumbledore, who was the Secret Keeper, specifically mentioned that house to the Dursleys? That idea interests me a great deal. You can go so many places with the idea that the Dursleys know about that house.




valuereflection - Oct 24, 2006 9:58 am (#121 of 183)

Die Zimtzicke, I also wondered why Dumbledore made sure the Dursleys heard that Sirius left Harry number twelve, Grimmauld Place. What did you mean, "You can go so many places with the idea that the Durleys know." I can't think of anything. I'm interested to hear your ideas about where it could lead.




haymoni - Oct 24, 2006 10:28 am (#122 of 183)

I'm surprised Vernon didn't try to check out the house the minute Harry left!

He could have had Dudley searching on the Internet as to where all the "Grimmauld Places were in England.

I still wonder if that look he gave was greed over the asset or excitement that Harry could live somewhere else.




Chemyst - Oct 24, 2006 7:33 am (#123 of 183)
Edited by S.E. Jones Oct 24, 2006 3:52 pm

Bella, as his cousin must know it is there. If she were to arrive there and could not find it, wouldn't she know it was under a FC? -T Vrana

I just assumed she'd go there and see a vacant house. If I had better support for that idea, I'd post it on the Fidelius Charm thread; but right now, it's just the idea that works for me and "accommodates" the problem.

-Moved from the 'R.A.B. - Your Thoughts?' thread.- SE Jones




T Vrana - Oct 24, 2006 9:11 am (#124 of 183)

But then, wouldn't everyone just see an empty house?




haymoni - Oct 24, 2006 9:27 am (#125 of 183)

Anyone who wasn't told the secret.

We also don't know about the other enchantments - the Unplottable bit and all that.

Perhaps when Bella's family would visit Sirius's family, certain protections were lifted.




S.E. Jones - Oct 24, 2006 1:40 pm (#126 of 183)
Edited Oct 24, 2006 2:41 pm

T Vrana --But then, wouldn't everyone just see an empty house?--

Harry didn't before he was in on the secret. All he saw was number 14 and 12 running into each other without so much as an alley between them, that I remember. So, if you aren't in on the secret where a Fidelius Charm exists, the place under the charm just doesn't exist for you (mentally speaking).




T Vrana - Oct 24, 2006 2:16 pm (#127 of 183)
Edited Oct 24, 2006 3:17 pm

Understood, because Harry had never been there before. If cousin Bella had been to visit auntie Sirius' mother as a child, then showed up one day, post prison, looking for Sirius what would she see? If she saw what Harry saw, wouldn't she know there was a FC on it? If she just saw an empty house, would she be able to enter? If she could not enter, seems like she would be suspicious, again.




S.E. Jones - Oct 24, 2006 2:49 pm (#128 of 183)

I, personally, think she would've seen what Harry saw. The obvious problem is that we don't know how prior knowledge is affected by the Fidelius Charm. Others beside Sirius would've known where James and Lily lived prior to them going under the Fidelius. We know that no one but the Secret-Keeper can tell the secret. So, could some Muggle in town have said, "oh, the Potters' house is over on Leo Street" if asked, or would the Muggle forget, or would the Muggle just not be able to say it (the way Harry telling Kreacher forcibly stopped him whining)? If the first scenario is true, then what would happen if someone tried to follow their directions? Would they not see anything, despite now knowing where it was, just as Harry couldn't see anything at Grimmauld Place? (<--This is what I'm betting would happen.) Would they see an abandoned building? If that were true, then they could still fire hexes at the abandoned building and could hit those protected inside. I don't think this would work for not being able to see the building, because it's like the entire area protected by the Charm doesn't mentally exist for them and so they would have nothing to aim at. With the building just seeming abandoned, they could still have a target (the house), even if the house were covered by a illusion of being rundown and abandoned. I think someone having prior knowledge of the building because they had been there, would be handled the same way, but that's a personal opinion. If the other two scenarios were true (the Muggle forgets or can't say) it really doesn't matter as the person asking couldn't find the house anyway.

Now we also have the problem of knowing that, if Bellatrix had inherited 12 Grimmauld Place, she could've shown up on the doorstep any minute to claim it. If she could've shown up on the doorstep, that suggests she could've seen something, whether it was the actual house or an abandoned replica in its place. However, if she could see the house, but it looked abandoned because she couldn't see the people inside, aside from Kreacher, there wouldn't have been much danger. They may not have been able to use it as HQ anymore, but they could've kept at least one brave soul behind to spy on Bellatrix. I kinda got the impression that this wouldn't be possible, which would mean that she would have seen the actual house and what was inside. It may be that you do have to have the owner's permission, so the Charm could become moot when the owner is no longer around to give permission (which could be a reason the Fidelius on the Potters' house broke) or when a new owner takes possession and hasn't given permission.

I know why JKR has left the Fidelius so vague (so she has wiggle room in her writing and to keep the "magic" in her magic) but it can be so frustrating.




Mattew Bates - Oct 25, 2006 12:30 pm (#129 of 183)

It may be that you do have to have the owner's permission, so the Charm could become moot when the owner is no longer around to give permission (which could be a reason the Fidelius on the Potters' house broke) or when a new owner takes possession and hasn't given permission.

I think that's spot on, S.E. Jones. To me, needing the owner's explicit permission to maintain the charm answers a lot of questions we have about the Fidelius. If we can assume the Potters owned the house in Godric's Hollow, then their deaths broke the charm, because Harry (the obvious inheritor) did not have the capacity to maintain explicit permission for the charm at 15 months old. This explains why Hagrid (and Muggles, for that matter) could find the house. Once Sirius, the owner of 12 Grimmauld Place died, that charm was broken. Once the current owner (oddly enough, Harry again) gave his permission, the charm could be re-cast.




S.E. Jones - Oct 25, 2006 2:16 pm (#130 of 183)

That would also solve another little problem I had with the Charm. We know that, when the Secret-Keeper dies, the secret's status remains the same as it was at the time they died. So, if you're house in under the Fidelius and only you and, say, your spouse know the secret, but then the Secret-Keeper dies, and later you no longer need the protection, how do you get the charm taken off your house? Well, if it needs the owner's permission, you simply cease to give permission. Otherwise, you'd have to move because you could never have company over again, as the Secret-Keeper is now dead and can no longer pass the secret on to others. So, yeah, it would make things much simpler to say you simply need permission from the owner....





Die Zimtzicke - Oct 25, 2006 7:45 pm (#131 of 183)

Regarding the fact that the Dursleys know about the house, I've seen theories that they have to go there for protection when the blood protection ends, or that Petunia knows more than she lets on, and can tell Harry something that helps him, and several others. Most of them revolve around the fact that Dumbledore did tell them about the house. I can give more examples, if anyone cares.

But it might means SOMETHING that the Secret Keeper at the time told those particular Muggles about Harry inheriting a house, and showing them Kreacher.




rambkowalczyk - Apr 14, 2007 3:52 pm (#132 of 183)

Below were ideas that were discussed on Why did Dumbledore have James' invisibility cloak.

OK, we're WAY off the subject, but my thoughts on this have always been that it is the object of the secret that is important. In other words, the object of the secret was not the Potter's house, but the fact that they were hiding there. That doesn't necessarily mean that no one could find or use the actual house. They just wouldn't be able to find the Potters even if, as Professor Flitwick tells us, "he [Voldemort] had his nose pressed against their sitting room window." The wording of this makes me believe that people could find the actual house, just not the Potters.

Similarly, the object of the secret that Dumbledore was keeping was that #12 Grimmauld place is the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix. People who know of the house, such as Harry, could tell someone else that the house existed, they just couldn't reveal that the house is the headquarters of the Order. My guess is that the same "noses pressed to the sitting room window" idea would apply here. If Voldemort or Bellatrix were to find the house, they just wouldn't be able to see the Order inside. So, I would think Harry would be able to take people there, such as Luna, but could not reveal that this is the headquarters for the Order. She would not be able to see the meeting if it was taking place or hear any of the discussions. PatPat

The problem I have with this theory is that I would assume that Harry would have also been the object of the secret as well. So the question is why can we see Harry now? Did Peter somehow broadcast to everyone where Harry was? If Harry wasn't the object of the secret then Voldemort could have his nose pressed up against the window and see baby Harry getting his nappies changed by invisible hands.

I'm guessing the Fidelius has multiple parts to it, for instance that the owner of a house has to give permission for the Fidelius to be cast on it. Sirius was the owner of 12GP and gave permission for DD to use it for Order HQ. DD then cast the Fidelius and was Secret Keeper. When Sirius died, DD said he was afraid the house may have automatically gone to Bella and that she might show up on its doorstep at any moment which tells me that she would be able to find it, despite the Fidelius DD had cast, if the house belonged to her. If that's the case, then the spell becomes void when the owner no longer gives permission (i.e. Sirius died and the new owner doesn't want the house concealed). That would explain why DD was so worried about 12GP going to Bella and why he had it abandoned until he knew for sure if Harry had inherited it and how Hagrid found Harry and the rubble at Godric's Hollow because that charm would've ended too when the owner ceased to give permission (i.e. James and Lily, who owned the house, had died). S.E. Jones

I think this is a defendable theory in that it explains a lot of things--why Godric's Hollow can now be found (assuming this is actually true), why we can see Harry, why Dumbledore was concerned if Bella inherited 12 Grimmauld Place. My problem with it is that it (maintaining the owners permission) makes the Fidelius Charm weaker than I would imagine it to be.




frogface - Apr 15, 2007 1:51 am (#133 of 183)

That does make a lot of sense actually - I can't believe that never occurred to me!




phuze - Apr 15, 2007 11:02 am (#134 of 183)
Edited Apr 15, 2007 12:09 pm

I have a different approach to the Fidelius charm than I have seen so far (my apologies in advance if someone already had this idea). I don't think that the Fidelius makes things disappear - I think it is subtler than that. I believe that the secret as information is magically protected from being broken and that the people and places the secret is about are unaffected. Put another way, the charm makes sure (by magic and events that look like coincidences) that the secret information can only be revealed by the Secret Keeper and no other way. So if Bella went to #12 Grimmauld Place looking for the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix she would see nothing that would reveal that information, but she could see the house or look in the window (if the other non-Fidelius spells on the house didn't prevent it). Perhaps the charm would incline her to take one look and then coincidentally be distracted or called away before she can see or do anything that would reveal the secret.

Thus, people who lived in Godric's Hollow could know there was a house where Harry and his parent's lived and even know that James, Lily and Harry Potter lived there. They couldn't know or reveal that Godric's Hollow was the hiding place for the Potters without being told by the Secret Keeper. This would explain the concept that Voldemort could press his nose up against the window and not see anything - if he saw the Potters the secret would be broken. It does mean that Voldemort could see the house and even know that someone lived there. He just couldn't know the secret that it was the hiding place for the Potters (or however the secret was constructed/phrased).

My biggest question about all of this is the secret information being available after the Potters were killed. Is it as simple as that the secret was where they were hiding and that once they were dead they weren't hiding anymore so there was no secret? We won't get to know from 12 Grimmauld Place because after OotP it wasn't the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix anymore.

Phuze




Laura W - Apr 15, 2007 4:02 pm (#135 of 183)

Phuze, in the Will and Won't chapter of HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry, "We have, however, vacated the building temporarily." and "It might be that Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any moment. Naturally we had to move out until such time as we have clarified the position." Of course, after the test with Kreacher, it was determined that Harry is, in fact, "the rightful owner of number twelve, Grimmauld Place" and that Bella could not discover it had been the headquarters of the Order unless the secret-keeper (DD) explicitly told her.

So ... I think it might be quite possible that the Order of the Phoenix will once again take up residence in 12GP in DH. All they need is the owner's permission, and Harry already gave that in the chapter I referred to in HBP. (Maybe during one of the Order meetings at 12GP, Harry will come across or remember that locket he saw there in the summer of 1995 - oops, this is for a different thread. heh, heh)

So, if Harry is now the owner of 12GP, and if the original Secret-Keeper (DD) is dead, does this mean that if the house again becomes the headquarters for the Order, Harry will appoint someone else to be the new Secret-Keeper? (Or am I getting even more confused than usual?)

Laura




PatPat - Apr 15, 2007 5:36 pm (#136 of 183)

The problem I have with this theory is that I would assume that Harry would have also been the object of the secret as well. So the question is why can we see Harry now? Did Peter somehow broadcast to everyone where Harry was? If Harry wasn't the object of the secret then Voldemort could have his nose pressed up against the window and see baby Harry getting his nappies changed by invisible hands.(rambkowalczyk)

OK, I think you misunderstood me. I do not think that the object of the secret was the Potters' very existence. I believe that the object of the secret was the fact that the Potters were hiding in Godric's Hollow. To me, that means that no one could find them there if they didn't know the secret. That doesn't mean they are invisible to them no matter where they are.




frogface - Apr 17, 2007 7:11 am (#137 of 183)

Is anyone else as confused as me now?




MickeyCee3948 - Apr 17, 2007 11:00 am (#138 of 183)

I am, but that's not unusual with the numerous intellectual members the forum has. I often feel lost!

Mickey




Die Zimtzicke - Apr 17, 2007 11:04 am (#139 of 183)

The question to me is, how did Sirius see the bodies, and Hagrid pick up Harry, if he should still have been invisible? No one told them the secret that we know of. The Secret Keeper told Voldemort, so he could attack, but who told Hagrid and Sirius where Lily, James and Harry were?




rambkowalczyk - Apr 18, 2007 6:40 am (#140 of 183)
Edited Apr 18, 2007 7:42 am

how did Sirius see the bodies, and Hagrid pick up Harry, if he should still have been invisible? No one told them the secret that we know of.

Anna L. Black wrote an essay that was printed in the lexicon called High Fidelity.

It postulates that in order for the Fidelius Charm to work the owner permission needs to be given. (James and Lily for Godric's Hollow, and Sirius for Grimmauld Place). When the owners die the charm doesn't work. See link below.

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Fidelius Charm Empty Fidelius Charm (posts #141 to #183)

Post  Potteraholic on Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:31 am

phuze - Apr 18, 2007 6:25 pm (#141 of 183)
Edited Apr 18, 2007 7:26 pm

Laura W,

You have a good point - I wonder however if the secret ended once 12 Grimmauld wasn't the headquarters anymore. The secret that Harry was shown was something like "The headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix is at 12 Grimmauld Place" so if that is the entirety of the secret, my idea makes sense. It gets more complicated if the secret is more flexible. For example, if the secret is wherever the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix happens to be, that would be much more complex. I think I fall on the side of it being the simpler approach. That way, the secret is that the headquarters is at X location. New location requires new secret. With the more complicated version, after Dumbledore died, even if they chose a new headquarters it would still be a secret and they couldn't tell anyone else. Since JKR said the status of the secret stays the same on the death of the Secret Keeper - it was secret when Dumbledore died so it stays secret.

I guess it isn't canon one way or the other, but it never sounded like 12 Grimmauld was used as the headquarters again (it never said yes or no in HBP), so I would think that if it is used as a headquarters in DH, it would be a new secret, with a new Secret Keeper. This would be especially true with Dumbledore gone. He can't keep the secret for something that happened after his death.

Phuze




frogface - Apr 19, 2007 8:58 am (#142 of 183)

I'm pretty sure the Order moved back into Grimmauld, given what Dumbledore said to Harry once they'd confirmed through Kreacher that it was still safe to use the house. I'm paraphrasing here but I almost certain he said something along the lines of the Order vacated the house temporarily. Temporarily suggests to me that they planned to move back in as long as they knew it was safe.




Die Zimtzicke - Apr 20, 2007 6:13 am (#143 of 183)

I have one problem with the Fidelius being related to the owner of the house. And that's the fact that if someone were being protected, you no longer just have to find them if you want to kill them. If you can figure out who is hiding them, you just have to kill that person, to expose the person being hidden.

Does that make a lick of sense? I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm having trouble saying it. Example: If Lily and James were using someone's house, and did not own it, and the owner was killed, would that end the Fidelius and leave Lily and James vulnerable?




MickeyCee3948 - Apr 20, 2007 6:44 am (#144 of 183)
Edited Apr 20, 2007 7:46 am

Die - The way I read it is that if the original owner of the house is killed then the new owner (via inheritance) would have to be someone who was not included in the secret to void the charm. With #12 Dumbledore was concerned that Harry was not considered the real owner of the house, that ownership had transferred to Bellatrix which would have been nasty for the order. JM2K's.

On another point I don't think ownership would have been a problem with GH. The Black's owned #12 and the Fidelius worked on that house to keep Bella and Narcissa away. The Fidelius should have worked on GH regardless of whether it was owned by James and Lily or not.

Mickey




rambkowalczyk - Apr 20, 2007 8:29 am (#145 of 183)

Example: If Lily and James were using someone's house, and did not own it, and the owner was killed, would that end the Fidelius and leave Lily and James vulnerable?

That is my question with what I think is a decent theory. It sounds like if one isn't careful setting up the charm, it could be vulnerable. Perhaps that is why Flitwick says it's complex.




Mattew Bates - Apr 20, 2007 10:19 am (#146 of 183)

I, too think that the owner's permission is key. That would be another reason why Dumbledore wanted Sirius to stay at 12GP - it not only kept him safe, it kept the charm safe. Following that logic, it would make sense that the Potters would want to charm a property that one or both of them owned - it would make it less vulnerable to just this sort of attack.




phuze - Apr 20, 2007 11:06 pm (#147 of 183)
Edited Apr 21, 2007 12:10 am

I'm not sure I agree on the owner's permission aspect of the Fidelius charm. I think that one aspect of the Fidelius is that there has to be a secret to keep - in other words, the Fidelius doesn't make something secret, it keeps something secret. Thus you can't make a person's house impossible for them to find by using a Fidelius because it isn't a secret. They already know where their house is. The same with the risk to the 12 Grimmauld Fidelius if Bellatrix ended up with ownership - it would be impossible to keep having the secret headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix in someone else's house. It is too big a stretch that a group of someone's enemies could be secretly using their house as a headquarters without them realizing it.

Given that idea, I don't think the Fidelius has global reality-altering properties so changes in circumstances can make the original secret not a secret anymore. I don't think one could become invisible by using a Fidelius about your location or presence in the middle of a room full of people. It seems to me there has to be some sort of limit imposed by reality - even in the world of magic.

I think that the main thing a Fidelius charm does is prevent everyone involved (except for the Secret Keeper) from intentionally or unintentionally revealing the secret. The thing we poor Muggles have to rely on loyalty for. Fidelius sounds like fidelity to me, so I think the charm ensures people's fidelity to the secret. The magic prevents anyone not in on the secret from connecting the dots and learning the secret but is less critical than the not telling or being able to tell the secret. I think the simplicity of the Fidelius is why JKR was surprised that people wanted to know more about it.

Phuze




Die Zimtzicke - Apr 21, 2007 6:11 am (#148 of 183)

But Bella obviously knows where Grimmauld Place is, but she can't get in...or am I misunderstanding you?




PatPat - Apr 21, 2007 12:50 pm (#149 of 183)
Edited Apr 21, 2007 1:51 pm

Thus you can't make a person's house impossible for them to find by using a Fidelius because it isn't a secret. They already know where their house is. (phuze)

I agree. That's why I think it depends on how the secret is worded. I don't think the object of the #12 secret was the fact that the house existed. I think the object of the secret was that the HEADQUARTERS of the Order was located there. I think Bella could get in to #12 if she were the owner. But she would not be aware that it is the headquarters of the Order. She would not be able to listen in on the Order's meetings or see anything related to the fact that it is the headquarters. The problem is if the house passed into her ownership, people could not just come and go as they pleased. If we have secret meetings at my house and it stays secret, there is no problem of someone finding us. But, if I die, and my house gets sold, the new owners might put new locks on the doors that would keep the rest of our group from meeting there anymore. In the same sense, Bella could add charms to the house to keep members of the Order away. There would be no way for them to meet there anymore. But, I don't think she would find out that it HAD been used for meetings in the past. That is still a secret. JMTK




phuze - Apr 21, 2007 4:15 pm (#150 of 183)
Edited Apr 21, 2007 5:19 pm

Die Zimtzicke,

My take on it, based on the Flitwick quote that Voldemort could press his nose up against the glass on the house and not see the Potters because of the Fidelius, is that if Bella could get inside (which might be problematic given the Black family's emphasis on a lot of spell-based security) she would not see, hear, taste, know or discover anything that would reveal the secret that it was the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix. She would be prevented by the Fidelius from knowing the secret. Unfortunately, we have only heard about two examples using the Fidelius - the hiding place of the Potters (or whatever the secret actually said) and the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix. We haven't gotten to see how the spell works on anyone who isn't in on the secret. It would have been interesting if a fellow student had asked Harry where he was in August. Then we would have gotten to see at least what effect it had on someone who was kind of asked to reveal the secret.

There is also the possibility that the Fidelius would work in a similar way to the enchantments that I believe were on both Hogwarts and the Quidditch World Cup where unwanted persons (in those cases Muggles) would suddenly remember pressing engagements and have to leave before they saw anything. If the Hogwarts charm is only that it looks so unsafe as a ruin that people won't try to go near it, that would also be a canon effect of a spell (obviously a different spell, but still a spell with a similar aim) that would make sense as an effect of a Fidelius. I think that Bella (or anyone else seeking the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix) would have a similar experience to those examples - either be distracted away, see nothing of value, or both.

I hope I'm not blathering on, I think the above should explain what my humble opinion is,

Phuze




Luna Logic - Apr 23, 2007 12:40 am (#151 of 183)
Edited by Apr 23, 2007 1:43 am

Laura W(post 135) : in the Will and Won't chapter of HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry, "We have, however, vacated the building temporarily." and "It might be that Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any moment. Naturally we had to move out until such time as we have clarified the position." Of course, after the test with Kreacher, it was determined that Harry is, in fact, "the rightful owner of number twelve, Grimmauld Place" and that Bella could not discover it had been the headquarters of the Order unless the secret-keeper (DD) explicitly told her.

So ... I think it might be quite possible that the Order of the Phoenix will once again take up residence in 12GP in DH. All they need is the owner's permission, and Harry already gave that in the chapter I referred to in HBP.

I'm pretty sure the Order moved back into Grimmauld, given what Dumbledore said to Harry once they'd confirmed through Kreacher that it was still safe to use the house. I'm paraphrasing here but I almost certain he said something along the lines of the Order vacated the house temporarily. Temporarily suggests to me that they planned to move back in as long as they knew it was safe.

As Laura said, Harry has given his permission explicitly to Dumbledore: "You can keep using it as Headquarters, 'said Harry." (HPB p. 52 Bloomsbury)

So, I am with Frogface (post 142), to think the Order did use Grimmauld place again since the summer of the beginning of HBP. Why would they renounce to this place and look for another?

Flitwick says the Fidelius Charm is complex. Maybe the permission of the owner is a necessity, as Anna L. Black essay proposes.

But more, maybe that permission has to be given in the presence of witness, which could explain the strangeness of the Will and Wont chapter scene (Dumbledore and Harry having that discussion about who owns 12 Grimmauld place in front of the Dursleys).

Another idea about the witness: must they be family relatives of the owner ?




Die Zimtzicke - Apr 23, 2007 5:14 am (#152 of 183)

I think Dumbledore and Harry has that discussion about Grimmauld Place in front of the Dursleys, because now the Secret Keeper has basically told the Dursleys about the house. They can technically be taken there sometime, if need be. I'm thinking an attack on Privet Drive after the protection ends is possible. This is all just theory, but you have to admit that the Secret Keeper in charge of this particular Fidelius, did talk about the house in front of them.




phuze - Apr 23, 2007 8:59 am (#153 of 183)

I re-read the chapter "Will and Won't" and wanted to add a couple of things to the discussion. Since the Order had vacated 12 Grimmauld before Dumbledore came to the Dursleys' then the secret that 12 Grimmauld is the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix is no longer true and I believe the Fidelius is no longer in effect. Dumbledore mentions the address in front of the Dursleys, but Harry is the one who says it was headquarters. The fact that he could reveal that information indicates that there is no restriction on him.

I agree that Dumbledore's mention of 12 Grimmauld in front of the Dursleys seems significant but I don't think that it was revealed to them in his role as the Secret Keeper.

It is also possible that the Order returned to using 12 Grimmauld as headquarters, but as far as I can recall there is no confirmation that they actually did so. It isn't any kind of huge stretch to assume that they did, but it is still only be an assumption or opinion. Depending on how a Fidelius works it might be significant whether 12 Grimmauld was the headquarters or not when Dumbledore died. It also might be moot if the Fidelius ended once the Order abandoned 12 Grimmauld - temporarily or not.

I have a couple of questions for the people who think that ownership has a magical impact on the ability to use a Fidelius: If a group of people took something like a book or necklace and hid it, would they be prevented somehow from using a Fidelius about the location of the item because it belongs to someone else? Or if a group of people were holding secret meetings in a room or building, could a Fidelius keep that meeting place a secret when the group doesn't own the room or building? I think the answers to those questions would be very enlightening one way or the other on the ownership issue and the Fidelius charm.




Anna L. Black - Apr 24, 2007 7:36 am (#154 of 183)

"If a group of people took something like a book or necklace and hid it, would they be prevented somehow from using a Fidelius about the location of the item because it belongs to someone else?" - phuze

I think that the answer is yes - they would be prevented somehow from hiding it. Otherwise, as has been pointed out here, what keeps you from stealing someone's belongings by hiding them with a Fidelius? Now, JKR may not have thought of that possibility, but when I try to explain to myself what is going on in the HP world, I want the explanation to be as logical as it can




Soul Search - Apr 24, 2007 9:51 am (#155 of 183)

I think all our questions are answered with the definition of the Fidelius Charm we received from Flitwick in PoA:

An immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it.

I think of a computer program where every detail has to be spelled out. The spell is "immensely complex" because everything has to be considered when casting the spell. For example, what the secret is, when the spell is to end, etc. Every detail.

So, the answer to most of our questions is "yes," because the charm can be cast in many different ways. What we don't know, however, is exactly how the charm was cast for Godric's Hollow or #12 Grimmauld Place.

I think we have seen three examples of the Fidelius Charm, the third being that Irma Pince is really Eileen Prince. That's the secret, so no one can figure it out, even if they knew Eileen before the charm was performed. She doesn't need any disguise, or anything, the Fidelius Charm does it all. We have a hint: Hermione saw a news picture of Eileen Prince and didn't recognize her as Madam Pince. (Which she is, of course.)

And that charm was to end upon Dumbledore's death, so it wouldn't go on forever, and that is why Madam Pince was wearing a veil at Dumbledore's funeral.




Die Zimtzicke - Apr 24, 2007 5:49 pm (#156 of 183)

Nothing personal, but if Madam Pince is Irma Prince, I will toss the book against the wall.




haymoni - Apr 24, 2007 6:36 pm (#157 of 183)
Edited Apr 24, 2007 7:37 pm

Tell us how you really feel, Die!!

If that theory turns out to be true, I personally will be thrilled.

"Gotcha Jo!" is what I'll be thinking.

Edit: I am not taking credit for that theory - I just mean that one of her readers figured it out!




phuze - Apr 24, 2007 7:20 pm (#158 of 183)
Edited Apr 24, 2007 8:24 pm

I'm with Die Z on the Pince/Prince thing.

In the definition from Flitwick, notice that the emphasis is on the information. I think the emphasis on ownership is tied to the physical object in a way that doesn't make sense to me. I also still think that you can't turn something that isn't a secret into a secret using a Fidelius. In other words, the identity of the current Minister of Magic can't be suddenly turned into a secret with a Fidelius - too many people know who it is already. It doesn't make sense that one day people can know it and the next it's gone, removed from everyone's heads. If the Fidelius worked like some here have theorized, the Potters didn't need to go to Godric's Hollow to hide - they just needed the Fidelius for their current dwelling and poof - they would disappear from everyone who didn't know the "secret". That's why the ownership part doesn't make sense to me.

Here's another question - why didn't Voldemort use the Fidelius to protect all of his horcruxes?

Phuze




Hoot Owl - Apr 24, 2007 10:20 pm (#159 of 183)

Because you have to trust someone else to be the Secret Keeper. Voldemort trusts no one except himself.




Luna Logic - Apr 25, 2007 12:00 am (#160 of 183)
Edited by Apr 25, 2007 1:03 am

I agree with Hoot Owl: "Voldemort trusts no one except himself". No Secret Keeper for him.

phuze: If the Fidelius worked like some here have theorized, the Potters didn't need to go to Godric's Hollow to hide - they just needed the Fidelius for their current dwelling and poof - they would disappear from everyone who didn't know the "secret". That's why the ownership part doesn't make sense to me.

Very good argument, Phuze. I can 't find any other counter argument for the moment!




Mudblood and Proud - Apr 25, 2007 5:37 am (#161 of 183)

If DD was Secret Keeper for the Order, does that mean no new wizards will be able to learn the whereabouts of the Order's hideout (12GP) now that he is dead? And does that mean they will have to relocate if they want to recruit new members who will be able to attend Order meetings?




Die Zimtzicke - Apr 25, 2007 8:32 am (#162 of 183)

Regarding Pince/Prince, I just can't beat the idea of Snape suddenly looking at her, and saying, "Mummy!" Especially if he catches her with Filch at the same time. LOL! I can't find anything the theory that she is a walking Fidelius has going for it except for the anagram.

I agree with phuze, a Fidelius is not going to just be like a big bomb type of memory charm, unless I’m totally wrong. (Which is possible. God knows I've done it before.) But I don't want a major plot line with another almost new character now when we've got so much to explain already. Especially one involving a spell that so many fans have so many problems with now.




haymoni - Apr 25, 2007 8:54 am (#163 of 183)

I never thought it was a memory charm.

If you are in on the secret - either you knew it already or the Secret Keeper told you - you just can't tell anyone else.

You could see Madam Pince and know that she was really Ms. Prince/Momma Snape, but you couldn't tell anyone else that it was her. I'm picturing Kreacher trying to talk after Harry told him to be quiet.

Now, if you can't see her because you weren't in on the Secret, how are all of these kids seeing this librarian? That would be the question I have. The only answer I can come up with is that Dumbledore tinkered with the Charm so that when you look at her, you see someone else. Like when a Muggle looks at Hogwarts.

It's a stretch, that's for sure, but so are lots of other things in Jo's world.




Steve Newton - Apr 25, 2007 9:27 am (#164 of 183)

Die says, "I just can't beat the idea of Snape suddenly looking at her, and saying, "Mummy!"

While I like the MPISM theory, I think we were a step ahead of JKR, this image will haunt me. EWWWWW!




Choices - Apr 26, 2007 10:12 am (#165 of 183)
Edited Apr 26, 2007 11:15 am

Haymoni - "The only answer I can come up with is that Dumbledore tinkered with the Charm so that when you look at her, you see someone else. Like when a Muggle looks at Hogwarts."

I do not think it is a Fidelius Charm on Madam Pince, otherwise why would she have to wear the long black veil at Dumbledore's funeral? Obviously, she wore it because someone might see her and recognize her. I doubt it had anything to do with the depth of her sorrow - no one else at the funeral felt the need to wear a long black veil, even those closest to Dumbledore.




haymoni - Apr 26, 2007 12:14 pm (#166 of 183)

Yes, but if Dumbledore is dead, the Charm is now lifted and everyone could now recognize her as Momma Snape, instead of Madame Pince.

I said it was a stretch!! Smile




Choices - Apr 26, 2007 5:15 pm (#167 of 183)

Good point about the charm being lifted - I hadn't thought of that - definitely a possibility.




PatPat - Apr 26, 2007 6:40 pm (#168 of 183)

I agree that Fidelius is not a memory charm. You can't MAKE something a secret if it isn't already. I cannot cast a Fidelius charm on someone's house and suddenly wipe the existence from their minds. The Fidelius charm is the magical concealment of a SECRET, which, to me, means that, whatever is being hidden has to be a secret already. I've always thought that it works exactly like secrets in the Muggle world except there is only one person who can slip up and let the cat out of the bag. Those who already know the secret will continue to know the secret. Those who don't know it will continue to not know it until someone tells them. In the magical world, only the Secret Keeper can tell, that's all. For example, anyone who knew where the Potters were hiding before the charm was cast still knew it afterwards. That's probably why Hagrid was able to find Harry. He already knew where the hiding place was. The casting of the charm did not wipe the information from his memory. It just prevented him from telling anyone else.

Similarly, the charm on #12 did not wipe the existence of the house from people's memories. Bella still knew the house existed. She just didn't know it was the headquarters of the Order and could not know unless Dumbledore told her.

I have another question to raise, though. If the secret can be told by writing it on a piece of paper, can that paper then be passed by a traitor to someone else? For example, if Moody happened to be a traitor, could he have handed the paper revealing the location of the headquarters to Voldemort rather than Harry? Or does the paper only work on the person it is intended for?




Luna Logic - Apr 26, 2007 11:13 pm (#169 of 183)

I have asked myself the same question, PatPat: If the secret can be told by writing it on a piece of paper, can that paper then be passed by a traitor to someone else? For example, if Moody happened to be a traitor, could he have handed the paper revealing the location of the headquarters to Voldemort rather than Harry? Or does the paper only work on the person it is intended for?

Another good question about 12 Grimmauld place, now Dumbledore is dead, by Mudblood and Proud: If DD was Secret Keeper for the Order, does that mean no new wizards will be able to learn the whereabouts of the Order's hideout (12GP) now that he is dead? And does that mean they will have to relocate if they want to recruit new members who will be able to attend Order meetings? Or could they take a new Secret Keeper?




frogface - Apr 28, 2007 3:44 am (#170 of 183)
Edited Apr 28, 2007 4:46 am

If the piece of paper still worked, they could just pass it along to new members. After all, that note never had Harry's name written on it did it? So one could surmise that anyone who read the note would know.

This could explain how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters. If he found, or was given a note written by Peter, but thought it was written by Sirius.




PatPat - Apr 28, 2007 4:17 am (#171 of 183)

If the piece of paper still worked, they could just pass it along to new members. After all, that note never had Harry's name written on it did it? So one could surmise that anyone who read the note would know.

This could explain how Hagrid knew where to find the Potters. If he found, or was given a note written by Peter, but thought it was written by Sirius. frogface

I don't think the note has to have the person's name on it necessarily. We're dealing with magic after all. I was thinking maybe there is a charm that makes a note only visible to one particular person.

But you may be right, which is why I brought up the question. This seems like rather lax security for a wizard of Dumbledore's caliber doesn't it?




Hoot Owl - Apr 28, 2007 9:01 pm (#172 of 183)

Moody burned the note after Harry read it! So unless he wrote another note I think the location of Headquarters is safe. They would need another way for new member to find it.

By the way if the secret is exactly the words in the note, DD never said them to the Dursleys. He told Harry that he had inherited #12 Grimmauld Place, and that included Kreacher who had been living at Headquarters. But he never says #12 Grimmauld Place, London is the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix. Logically they could put it together, but magic is not logic.

A note might explain Hagrid finding Harry. However if the secret was that the Potters are hiding in Godric's Hollow, everybody in the Wizarding World knows that now. The charm must have been broken somehow! So why not that night? IMHO anyone could have seen Harry in the rubble.




frogface - Apr 29, 2007 3:41 am (#173 of 183)

IF Dumbledore planned his death (I think its a strong possibility he did but I'm not one to assume anything) then I would think he probably thought of a way to keep Grimmauld Place useful. He knew it was Harry's house after all, so I'm sure he would have left a note or a way to break the charm or something.




PatPat - Apr 29, 2007 6:38 am (#174 of 183)

Moody burned the note after Harry read it! So unless he wrote another note I think the location of Headquarters is safe. They would need another way for new member to find it. Hoot Owl

Hoot Owl, I think you misunderstand me. I wasn't implying that the specific note that Moody gave Harry was going to fall into other hands or that Moody is a traitor. My question was more of a general nature. In general, CAN a note written by a Secret Keeper be passed from someone who was a traitor to the other side? I just used the Moody thing as an example. IF, hypothetically, Moody were a traitor, could he pass the note intended for Harry to someone from Voldemort's camp? Or does the note have some kind of charm on it so that ONLY the intended person can read it?




Luna Logic - Apr 29, 2007 6:57 am (#175 of 183)

You have asked THE question, PatPat... If we had the answer, we could see more precisely, for example, Who was (or could be) at Godric's Hollow that night... (see Madam Pince post #616)




TheSaint - Apr 29, 2007 7:54 am (#176 of 183)

What if Snape was present when Peter told Voldemort where the Potters were? Then he would be more than capable of being at GH when Voldemort arrives.




Mediwitch - Apr 29, 2007 1:36 pm (#177 of 183)
Edited Apr 29, 2007 2:36 pm

Then Snape would be even more despicable than some people think, because he would have known that Sirius was innocent the entire time Sirius was locked up in Azkaban. But yes, he certainly would have been able to be at GH as he would have been told the secret by the Secret Keeper!




S.E. Jones - May 6, 2007 12:42 am (#178 of 183)
Edited May 6, 2007 1:46 am

PatPat --Similarly, the charm on #12 did not wipe the existence of the house from people's memories. Bella still knew the house existed. She just didn't know it was the headquarters of the Order and could not know unless Dumbledore told her.--

There is a problem with this statement though. Kreacher showed up in front of Narcissa and was babbling about Sirius and Harry, right? He couldn't tell Narcissa the secrets he heard at Order HQ because Sirius forbade him. He couldn't tell Narcissa the Order was at #12GP because he wasn't the Secret Keeper, but if the charm works the way you are suggesting and the "secret" is only a secret to those who don't already know, it would be possible for Narcissa to guess that Sirius, at least, was at #12 because she would've recognized her auntie's old house-elf (she knew this before the charm was cast) and Sirius isn't singled out in the secret (the secret was about the "Order's HQ" not Sirius). So, unless there is some mental component to the spell, something that prevented her from going, "oh, I recognize that elf, Sirius must be at Auntie's house", there was nothing preventing her from at least sending some DEs to #12GP to grab Sirius. However, she didn't, which makes me think there is something else other than her not knowing the secret because she didn't already know it, there's something that prevented her from putting the pieces together and could've potentially altered her memory or at least blocked it (the way people see ruins when they look at Hogwarts she might keep getting confused when trying to picture her old aunt's old house or something).

I hope that all made sense. Discussing this charm can be as confusing as the charm is itself....




PatPat - May 6, 2007 10:08 am (#179 of 183)

I see what you are saying, SE, but I disagree. I think Narcissa DID know that Sirius was at #12. That doesn't mean that she knew the headquarters was there. Remember they sent Kreacher back with instructions to keep Sirius out of the way when Harry came looking for him. I don't think they wanted or needed Sirius. The goal was the prophecy and, to get the prophecy, they needed Harry. The Dark Lord was able to get Harry to the MoM without actually capturing Sirius.

It just doesn't make sense to me that a Fidelius would work like a memory charm. If this were the case, you could hide ANYTHING by simply placing a Fidelius charm on it, thus making everyone who is aware of its existence forget about it. Why not place Harry under a Fidelius, thus wiping his existence from Voldemort's memory??




S.E. Jones - May 6, 2007 1:58 pm (#180 of 183)

PatPat --I think Narcissa DID know that Sirius was at #12. That doesn't mean that she knew the headquarters was there.--

This is what I was trying to say, actually. However, they should have been able to figure out that Sirius would know something about the Order (he wouldn't be able to tell the location because he wasn't Secret Keeper, but he should be able to tell some of their plans while under an Imperius or with Crucio - don't forget we're dealing with people who think this way). And, it should also have been obvious from the way Kreacher was speaking that there is at least a chance that Harry was wherever Sirius was so, even if they couldn't figure out that this was the Order's HQ, they should have been able to figure out something important was going on there simply based on what they heard about Sirius and Harry.




gankomon - May 18, 2007 8:02 am (#181 of 183)
Edited May 18, 2007 9:11 am

valuereflection asked on an earlier thread how to publish an essay on the Lexicon. I recommend emailing the Lexicon staff, and asking them what the process is for getting an essay published.

On the topic of the Fidelius, canon says that the charm can be placed on anything. In the Potters' case, it was applied to the location of the Potters', not of the house they occupied. Remember that Flitwick stated someone could look in their windows and never see them if the onlooker was not privy to the information held by the Secret-Keeper.

In the case of Grimmauld Place, the secret was that the house was headquarters. This raises the question of what the charm was applied to. Was the house itself protected, or was it merely the fact of it being the Order's HQ? We don't know, as Dumbledore's message can be interpreted either way. To the best of my recollection, it said,

"The headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix can be found at Number 12, Grimmauld Place". Thus the secret protected by the Fidelius Charm could be either the house itself or the state of it being headquarters. At this point, we simply lack the requisite data to make a determination.

In the Potter's case, Dumbledore almost certainly was in on the secret, as he dispatched Hagrid as soon as he heard of the attack. But whether he cast the spell is uncertain. I would lean towards Lily as casting it- she has been referenced as being skilled at charms. Again, we lack the relevant data to reach any conclusions.

Regards,

gankomon

-------------------

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.




wolf~ears - Dec 8, 2007 7:26 pm (#182 of 183)

I think early in book 7 it said that the Burrow was made OP headquarters immediately after they decided there were too many Secret Keepers for 12 Grimmauld Place. Does anyone know how long the Burrow was headquarters (or am I all wrong about that), or whether it would make sense that this secret was protected by the Fidelius Charm? It seems like there was an effort to keep the Weasleys out of trouble, so they could keep their jobs and Ginny safe, and they didn't go into hiding until Ron was seen with Harry. Would it have made sense for the Burrow to have been headquarters? It would have been suspicious to make it impossible to find, since everyone knew where it was, but I think as recent post said that Fidelius Charm could be used to keep any secret, not only hide a building.

Forgive me if all this has been answered, I'm new to this discussion and couldn't possibly read it all! (Or all the other ones, for that matter).




zelmia - Dec 24, 2007 3:47 pm (#183 of 183)

I understood that the OP stopped having any sort of formal HQ as of the Wedding. The Ministry/DE's swept down upon the proceedings and forced everyone associated with the Order to flee.
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