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Albus Dumbledore

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Albus Dumbledore - Page 3 Empty Posts 2030 to 2055

Post  Mona Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:58 am


Solitaire - Jul 21, 2010 7:09 am (#2031 of 2055)
I honestly don't remember, legolas. I think it's time for a reread for me. I do remember Harry trying to tell Voldy, in that last duel, to try for some remorse or humanity or something ... like maybe it would help him??? Alas, he was just too far gone.



legolas returns - Jul 21, 2010 9:54 am (#2032 of 2055)
It's in Chapter 6 in DH.



Julia H. - Jul 21, 2010 10:29 am (#2033 of 2055)
Edited Jul 21, 2010 11:32 am
Slughorn says murder rips the soul apart. No other types of soul damage are mentioned (I believe), although it is possible that the soul can be damaged in other ways by other bad deeds. When Hermione tells Harry and Ron about Horcruxes (things that she has read), she says a ripped soul can be healed by remorse only, and it is a very painful process.

Snape certainly seems to feel the pain of remorse after Lily's death... Still, my impression is that he talks about a soul not yet damaged (ripped) by murder when he asks "And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"

This is a part of the conversation between them:

“If you don’t mind dying,” said Snape roughly, “why not let Draco do it?”

“That boy’s soul is not yet so damaged,” said Dumbledore. “I would not have it ripped apart on my account.”

“And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?”

Here Snape seems to imply (directly in response to Dumbledore's words) that his soul is not so damaged either - i.e. not ripped apart by murder, therefore it is not all the same to him yet. Then Dumbledore replies:

“You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation,” said Dumbledore. “I ask this one great favor of you, Severus, because death is coming for me as surely as the Chudley Cannons will finish bottom of this year’s league. I confess I should prefer a quick, painless exit to the protracted and messy affair it will be if, for instance, Greyback is involved --- I hear Voldemort has recruited him? Or dear Bellatrix, who likes to play with her food before she eats it.”

So Dumbledore basically says that in the case of Snape, this murder will be charity rather than anything else, therefore not so dangerous for the soul. (He does not say that Snape's soul is damaged anyway.) The problem is that Dumbledore had to say something to persuade Snape, because he needed Snape to kill him for several reasons, and this was probably his best argument, i.e. the one that was most likely to convince Snape. But Dumbledore was focusing on "the greater good", for which I think he did make Snape risk his soul nevertheless.

I'm sure the damage was not the same as after committing a murder for an evil reason; but Unforgivable Curses cannot be cast light-heartedly, we know that from Bellatrix, so Snape probably had to concentrate a lot of "negative energy" - or emotions - to be able to kill Dumbledore. For example, he may have hated Dumbledore in that moment for making him do that horrible thing. But whatever it took him psychologically to succeed in AK-ing Dumbledore, I think it could harm his soul, and he likely felt painful remorse afterwards, if not for the AK itself, then for being able to do it at all.



legolas returns - Jul 21, 2010 11:56 am (#2034 of 2055)
I have always wondered how much Snape blames him for Lily's death. That could have helped channel the hate.



Solitaire - Jul 21, 2010 2:30 pm (#2035 of 2055)
Do you think Snape truly hated Dumbledore? I think he saved that for James. it's sad that by complying with DD's last request, Snape set in motion the events that would cost his own life. Did DD foresee this, as well, and know that Voldemort would go after Draco if he believed Draco had killed DD? If so, it makes all of their situations the more pitiable, IMO.



Julia H. - Jul 21, 2010 3:56 pm (#2036 of 2055)
Edited Jul 21, 2010 4:59 pm
Do you think Snape truly hated Dumbledore? (Solitaire)

I don't know if this question is for Legolas or for me or for both of us. IMO, Snape truly loved Dumbledore - the reason why he agreed to the AK, his reluctance even after he had taken the Unbreakable Vow, his anger when he realized that Dumbledore had got himself mortally wounded and his longing for Dumbledore to keep trusting him and to understand what he was going through indicate deep love, I think. But he still had to find in himself the force to produce a successful AK, and the way his expression is described in that scene shows that it was not (or was not only) love or some other positive feeling. So I think he agreed to kill Dumbledore out of love and duty but he needed something like anger or hatred or at least despair to effectively cast the curse. I find it more likely that the root of it was Dumbledore forcing him to kill Dumbledore rather than Snape blaming Dumbledore for Lily's death, but either way, the negative force that he needed at the moment of the AK was likely to leave him with guilt, even though he knew that he had done exactly what Dumbledore had expected him to do.

(It is especially horrible that after playing a tragic part in Lily's death, Snape was forced to kill the only other person he truly cared for and who truly knew him, so that he probably ended up feeling guilty about both of them. Then, of course, he had the task to send Harry Potter to his death for the greater good (he did not know that Harry would survive), so he thought he would have a hand in the death of yet another person whom he had wanted to keep alive. After all, he tried to save Lily but failed, he saved Dumbledore's life just before Dumbledore asked him to kill him, and he worked hard to keep Harry safe for years, but only to learn that he had to give him a suicidal duty eventually.)

Did DD foresee this, as well, and know that Voldemort would go after Draco if he believed Draco had killed DD?

For me, that is maybe the biggest unanswered question of the series... Dumbledore tells Harry at King's Cross that he had expected Voldemort to start looking for the Elder Wand, and knowing Voldemort so well as Dumbledore knew him could leave little doubt about what Voldemort would do to obtain the wand. Perhaps Dumbledore had no better option, but did he let Snape know what was in store for him? We find out that Dumbledore did not want Harry to know that he was "doomed to die" until the last moment. Did Dumbledore follow the same logic in Snape's case for a similar reason? Where is the individual choice in all that? Or did Snape know?



Solitaire - Jul 21, 2010 4:03 pm (#2037 of 2055)
I think he agreed to kill Dumbledore out of love and duty but he needed something like anger or hatred or at least despair to effectively cast the curse.

Could it have been self-hatred? We have seen some of that in Snape. What about simple anger at DD for putting him in this position? Anger at himself, perhaps, for getting into this position via the Unbreakable Vow he took to protect Draco? Surely that vow could be said to have encompassed killing DD, given the chain of events, because allowing Draco to kill DD would have meant instant death to Draco once Voldemort realized he needed the Elder Wand. He only killed Snape because he didn't know Draco was the master of the wand.



Julia H. - Jul 21, 2010 4:06 pm (#2038 of 2055)
Edited Jul 21, 2010 5:13 pm
Could it have been self-hatred? We have seen some of that in Snape. What about simple anger at DD for putting him in this position?

Yes, I agree it is possible, too.

Anger at himself, perhaps, for getting into this position via the Unbreakable Vow he took to protect Draco?

I think by the time he took the Vow, Snape had already made his promise to Dumbledore, but I can imagine he hated himself (or was angry with himself) for getting into that position. (Something like "Why must I be the right person for this job?")



Solitaire - Jul 21, 2010 4:22 pm (#2039 of 2055)
Sadly, he was really the only one. Who else was a double agent and could be believable?



Julia H. - Jul 21, 2010 4:35 pm (#2040 of 2055)
The job was definitely not the kind that truly decent people would get.



mona amon - Jul 21, 2010 8:25 pm (#2041 of 2055)
Edited Jul 21, 2010 9:26 pm
This is an interesting line of thought, and maybe we could discuss in detail on the Snape thread sometime? About how Severus's evil-ness was absolutely necessary for the good guys to win the war.

I do not believe Seveus hated Dumbledore at the moment he AKed him. To me the hatred on his face was more a sort of universal hatred, better described as rage. Does it say anywhere that you have to muster hatred for the victim before you can cast an unforgivable curse? I thing Bella only says you have to really mean it, and no doubt Severus did mean it. He knew the time had come to kill Dumbledore, and it was his duty to do it. Still, it would have taken an enormous amount of will, and Dumbledore knew that he had it in him.



Solitaire - Jul 21, 2010 9:18 pm (#2042 of 2055)
Perhaps the hatred was hatred of Voldemort ... for what he had cost Snape in his life. Perhaps what he felt was a kind of anger akin to what Harry was feeling in those times when he felt so lost and completely unsure of how he should proceed. He was angry with DD for leaving him so unprepared.

Snape knew what would eventually follow DD's death ... and he knew he would be blamed and hated for it. He was a man alone. He despised what the DEs and Voldemort stood for, yet he had to appear to support them, because that was the only way he could do what he needed to do--help Harry and protect the kids at Hogwarts. The people he supported in his heart--the Order--were lost to him. And other than a portrait in DD's office, in whom was there to confide? No one. That must have been pretty lonely.



Julia H. - Jul 22, 2010 8:31 am (#2043 of 2055)
Edited Jul 22, 2010 9:38 am
About how Severus's evil-ness was absolutely necessary for the good guys to win the war. (Mona)

While I agree with the "necessary" part of your statement, I would not call the thing "evilness".

"'Evil' is a strong word..." (Hermione)

I would not call Snape evil, and I am not saying it was "evilness" that he needed to kill Dumbledore or to help the good side win the war. Molly was not "evil" either when she killed Bellatrix in defence of her daughter. Snape was protecting others, too, but, unlike Molly, he was forced to cast the "protective" AK on the "wrong person".

I like the "universal hatred" or "rage" instead of a personal feeling that Snape may have felt at the moment when he killed Dumbledore. My point is that he needed some sort of "destructive energy", which may have harmed his soul despite what Dumbledore had said. (BTW, Molly also needed this kind of force, but in her case, it was at least channelled in the "normal" way, and did not affect anyone that Molly loved.)

Does it say anywhere that you have to muster hatred for the victim before you can cast an unforgivable curse? Bella only says you have to really mean it, and no doubt Severus did mean it.

Yes, exactly. And no, it is nowhere said that you have to feel personal hatred for the victim. My question is what it takes (emotionally / psychologically) to "really mean it". It may be something different for different people. Voldemort seemed to be able to kill without any emotions, but he was a psychopath. Harry was unable to "properly" cast an Unforgivable on Bellatrix just minutes after Sirius had been killed in front of his eyes. Two years later, he successfully Crucio-d the Death Eater who had spat on McGonagall. Was he angrier with that Death Eater than he had been with the murderer of Sirius? I don't think so. But maybe it was his experiences - all his anger, sorrow, disappointment, desperation etc. that had accumulated in those two years that made him capable of casting an Unforgivable. Maybe it was something else. But I think loss of innocence, a somewhat "hardened" heart must have been involved. Snape had "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face". This was not an emotionless action, but I agree that the hatred did not have to be personally for Dumbledore. Then again, since I think Snape really loved Dumbledore, I can imagine that he was able to "reverse" this strong positive emotion into a negative one in that critical moment.

And other than a portrait in DD's office, in whom was there to confide? (Solitaire)

Only the dead knew who he really was. I think this really foreshadowed his own upcoming death.



Solitaire - Jul 22, 2010 11:45 am (#2044 of 2055)
Only the dead knew who he really was. I think this really foreshadowed his own upcoming death.

Oh! Interesting observation. That reminds me of an ancient M*A*S*H episode. A soldier has died and keeps trying to get people to hear him and pay attention ... and the only ones who can see and hear him are other dead people ... and Klinger, who is delirious. Interesting ... even Harry didn't know who he really was until after he had died. I've always found that sad, because Snape, more than any living person, truly knew Lily and could have answered so many questions for Harry. Ah, well ... this is turning into a Snape post and I'm on the DD thread!



Choices - Jul 22, 2010 12:49 pm (#2045 of 2055)
I think the "hatred" on Snape's face was for what he was having to do and for all the other dirty jobs he had to do as a spy.



Dryleaves - Jul 24, 2010 12:51 am (#2046 of 2055)
On the top of the tower DD is weak, pleading, surrounded by Death Eaters and Snape sees this, knows what he has promised DD earlier, knows what the situation is. When DD asks Snape of this favour, he has different arguments: the great plan of defeating Voldemort, but also to save him from pain and humiliation.

If Snape would not have killed DD on the tower, he would maybe have endangered the plan, but it is possible that Snape could have imagined alternative ways to carry out the plan. When it comes to the pain and humiliation, this is more immediate. DD is clearly dying, he is clearly in pain, he is clearly threatened by his enemies and Snape would probably feel that he had let DD down if he had not fullfilled DD's wish. I don't think he wants to kill DD, but he doesn't want to let him down in a time of pain. Maybe "to really mean it" is about weighing these questions against each other: "If I kill him, can I live with it? If I don't, can I live with it?"

And, as this is Dumbledore's thread: Would it harm DD's soul to ask Snape to kill him?



Solitaire - Jul 24, 2010 7:07 am (#2047 of 2055)
Edited Jul 24, 2010 8:10 am
Dryleaves! It's great to see you!!

Gosh, have we ever discussed whether or not Dumbledore's soul has been damaged? I'm sure that the incident which resulted in Ariana's death, Grindelwald's flight, and some possible estrangement for a time from Aberforth must have shredded his soul. What is interesting is that this tragedy, as well as his defeat of Grindelwald, seemed to strengthen DD's awareness of such dangers and make him see what was important. Dumbledore seems to have come to terms with the horrible events of his life, and he even seems to have reconciled with Aberforth, which must have helped considerably in his "restoration." Perhaps the fact that these tragedies and losses were always with him is what helped him retain his humanity.

Snape's constant memory of Lily and regret for his role in the events which led to her death seem never to have left him. I wonder how he is affected on a day-to-day basis by his memory of the disgust and revulsion DD expressed when he talked about sacrificing Lily and throwing Harry and James to Voldemort. That memory was obviously a constant companion, because it is one of those he gave to Harry ... so it must have been important in helping him to agree to protect Harry and help DD. Could some of these memories be what cause such a look to cross his face?

In the end, I don't think DD sees what he is asking Snape to do as murder. I place it in the category of euthanasia. I'm not a proponent of this practice, but I am aware that a great many people do not consider euthanasia to be murder. Perhaps Dumbledore and JKR are among them--I have no idea. It's just something to consider.



Julia H. - Jul 27, 2010 7:09 am (#2048 of 2055)
Edited Jul 27, 2010 8:23 am
Maybe "to really mean it" is about weighing these questions against each other: "If I kill him, can I live with it? If I don't, can I live with it?" (Dryleaves)

Yes, maybe, in this case, it is. Interesting idea.

It is also a good question whether Dumbledore's soul was harmed by his request... especially if the request did endanger another man's soul. But I don't know ... he does not seem remorseful about it when he meets Harry at King's Cross; but then again, there the topic of the discussion is not Snape but Harry. We should see a similar discussion between Dumbledore and Snape.

Nice to see you posting!

In the end, I don't think DD sees what he is asking Snape to do as murder. (Solitaire)

He probably does not, but I hope he still knows he is asking something horribly difficult. Snape does not necessarily see it in the same way as Dumbledore, especially in the more desperate (and lonely) moments. (And now an excellent piece of fanfiction that I read springs to mind. )

In the last year of Dumbledore's life, Snape seems to feel he is gradually losing Dumbledore, that they are not as close as they may have been or as Snape would want them to be. I wonder if it is "simply" an expression of Snape's growing despair or if Dumbledore purposefully distances himself from Snape after the "big request". If he does, is this move justified by any necessity other than DD running out of time?

EDITED



Solitaire - Jul 27, 2010 9:33 am (#2049 of 2055)
Yes, I remember Snape commenting that Dumbledore didn't trust him, or was no longer confiding fully in him and DD responding that he didn't like to put all of his eggs in one basket, especially a basket that dangles on the arm of Voldemort ... or am I misremembering?

It does seem that if someone has asked you to help end his life when the time comes, then there would be an incredibly close bond there, doesn't it? Perhaps DD was so consumed with trying to prepare Harry to continue the Horcrux hunt once he was gone that he neglected certain critical aspects of his relationship with Snape, assuming (wrongly, perhaps?) that Snape didn't need the attention as much as Harry did just then.



mona amon - Jul 28, 2010 3:49 am (#2050 of 2055)
Edited Jul 28, 2010 4:54 am
Nice to see you again, Dryleaves!

Did Dumbledore's request harm Severus's soul, or even his own? Interesting question. IMO, we have to distinguish between soul on the one hand, and heart or mind or psyche on the other. The soul I think can only be harmed by a moral wound. Murder, the greatest crime of all, actually tears the soul, and requires remorse of the most painful sort to fix it.

Since I do not believe that Severus killing Dumbledore at his request was murder, I do not believe that it would have harmed either man's soul.

On the other hand, it must have been incredibly difficult for Severus to do, and must have caused damage to his heart/mind/psyche. I'm not sure that Dumbledore realises this. He takes Severus for granted, fails to acknowledge any difficulty for Severus either from killing him or it's aftermath, treats the whole thing too lightly and never tells another living soul about it. If Sevurus had not succeeded in giving his memories to Harry, he'd have gone down in wizarding history as the evil murderer of a weakened and defenceless Dumbledore.

In the last year of Dumbledore's life, Snape seems to feel he is gradually losing Dumbledore, that they are not as close as they may have been or as Snape would want them to be. I wonder if it is "simply" an expression of Snape's growing despair or if Dumbledore purposefully distances himself from Snape after the "big request". (Julia)

I don't really see this. I think Dumbledore is the same to Severus as he has always been. He's just so much older and cleverer than everyone else - he distances himself from others. Even Harry feels, on looking back at their relationship, that they never discussed anything personal.

It does seem that if someone has asked you to help end his life when the time comes, then there would be an incredibly close bond there, doesn't it? (Soli)

I think they were as close as they could be, given each one's personality, and on Dumbledore's side, he knew everything there was to know about Severus. But there is truth in Sevurus's accusation, "You have used me!" Dumbledore had to be like that. The war would never have been won otherwise.

Julia, I'll take Severus's "evil-ness" to his own thread, later.



Julia H. - Jul 28, 2010 5:21 am (#2051 of 2055)
Edited Jul 28, 2010 6:25 am
I think Dumbledore definitely overlooked an important emotional need that his request created; and this emotional need came on top of an already very stressful situation (spying and all). I can perfectly understand Snape when he is "loudly" demanding some attention, threatening to change his mind etc.

However, with regard to the Plan, Dumbledore was probably right that Harry needed more of his time and attention. I guess Dumbledore trusted Snape to be able to handle the task and the stress, just as he trusted Snape to carry out the rest of the spying business without mistakes. And indeed, Snape did everything as he had to do without any support from anyone. But the job took its toll on him, personally, for the rest of his short life.

In defence of Dumbledore, I must admit that he was indeed running out of time, and he was forced to concentrate on the greater good. I can also imagine that secretly he had to struggle with the idea of his own death, no matter how calm he seemed about it in front of others. And he was not good at giving psychological support to anyone in the first place.

Still, I would have liked Snape to get some real reassurance, something good and personal from Dumbledore that he could have remembered in the months of utter solitude.



Chemyst - Jul 28, 2010 1:22 pm (#2052 of 2055)
Edited Jul 28, 2010 2:25 pm
It does seem that if someone has asked you to help end his life when the time comes, then there would be an incredibly close bond there, doesn't it? - Soli

I think many persons would feel closer, but I doubt that I would. I think I'd feel more estranged from someone who wasn't a blood relative. I think it would realign priorities drastically.
For instance, I never watch the TV news anymore, but for years it was part of my daily routine. On the occasions when someone close to me would die, all the stories on the news would seem meaningless and empty for the next week or two and I'd stop watching for awhile. If someone asked me to help end their life, then similarly, I don't think I be able to enjoy chatting with them about who is "trending now" on Yahoo or be too fussed over who won the World Series. If we did talk about such 'newsy' topics, it would feel like there was an elephant sitting between us that we didn't want to acknowledge.



John Bumbledore - Oct 4, 2010 10:18 am (#2053 of 2055)
Following on Chemyst comments reference to the idiom, "an elephant in the room," I think DD had many such elephants.



Solitaire - Oct 4, 2010 5:26 pm (#2054 of 2055)
I might not feel too close after the person asked me. As a matter of fact, I might feel alienated and quite angry in a "real life" situation. On the other hand, I can't imagine anyone asking a casual acquaintance to do the deed. Only someone who truly understood both the one making the request and the reason for his request would begin to know why the request was being made, IMO. I do agree, though, that such a request has the potential (and likelihood) of changing forever the way one feels about the person making the request.



Julia H. - Oct 4, 2010 10:53 pm (#2055 of 2055)
Yes, perhaps that is what happens between Dumbledore and Snape as well. They have to be quite close for Dumbledore to make this request (even though there is a Great Plan involved, and Snape is strategically the only suitable person to carry out this particular portion of the plan). This closeness is emphasized by the way Dumbledore persuades Snape. Instead of referring to the plan (though Snape is clearly aware of the strategic advantages, with the possible exception of the Elder Wand problem), Dumbledore is talking about pain and humiliation, which makes the request - and Snape's consent - personal. Then in the later scenes, it is quite apparent that Snape's feelings about Dumbledore have changed - unconditional loyalty is mingled with anger, frustration, even desperation.

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