Godric's Hollow

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Godric's Hollow

Post  Lady Arabella on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:49 am

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Lady Arabella
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Post  Lady Arabella on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 am


Godric’s Hollow
Mrs. Sirius - May 6, 2005 9:29 pm Reply
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 4, 2007 1:46 am

There is a discussion on the Harry Potter thread and Lily and James thread about what happened "that" night in Godrics Hollow.

I thought that JKR would take us to Harry's homestead in OOTP but she didn't. Harry is going to have to go to Godric's Hallow before the series ends, but now I wonder if she'll leave that for book 7. JK will do more than just tell us what happened there that night I think Harry has to go there himself. Harry will have to see the level of destruction that destroyed his home and ended his parents’ lives but did not kill him. I think we'll also have to go to Godric's Hallow to answer lingering questions about Harry's family's ancestry and wealth. It's been a while since Godric's Hollow has had it's own thread, but since that's where it all started, it should have an active thread, what do you think?

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MoonRider - May 7, 2005 4:15 am (#1 of 594)

Mrs. Sirius: "I think we'll also have to go to Godric's Hallow to answer lingering questions about Harry's family's ancestry and wealth."[

I was thinking that that's what the chapter "Spinners End" is about. I'm thinking that Spinners End might be the place that was James and Lily's original home-----given that it is said that they were advised to "go into hiding".

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Choices - May 7, 2005 9:20 am (#2 of 594)

It will be interesting to see what meaning JKR has for "spinner". The dictionary has - one that spins, a fisherman's lure, a conical sheet metal fairing attached to an airplane propellar, or a movable arrow that is spun on a dial to indicate the number or kind of move a player may make in a board game. I'm sure there are more and JKR could mean any one of them. I am anxious to see if Spinners End does have any connection to Godric's Hollow.

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Finn BV - May 7, 2005 1:14 pm (#3 of 594)

Mrs. Sirius - doesn't it say in the books that the house was in ruins? How could Harry return to see the state of destruction of his house? Surely Godric's Hollow, in 15+ years would have erected a new structure if the previous house had been blown up to bits!

I do hope our good friend the Time Turner is not the answer.

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Ponine - May 10, 2005 6:25 pm (#4 of 594)

So, Choices, would that thing on the Rubbish bin page be a Spinner, then?? hmm...

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Choices - May 11, 2005 9:55 am (#5 of 594)

I don't know Ponine - to tell the truth I don't ever go to JKR's site.

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fleur-de-lys - May 11, 2005 11:11 am (#6 of 594)

Ponine, I think that thing on JK's website at the rubbish bin is actually a Sneakascope (sp?). That's what I've always assumed it is. I guess we're all untrustworthy, but I wonder if it spins for everyone...if it doesn't spin for anyone? But, since it spins, it could be called a spinner. Maybe Spinner's End is the home of a make of or inventor of the Sneakascope (again, sp?)

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Choices - May 11, 2005 11:19 am (#7 of 594)
Edited May 11, 2005 12:20 pm

Good catch Fleur - I read the part last night in POA where Ron sends Harry a Sneakascope from Egypt. I think it was described as looking like a glass (spinning) top.

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S.E. Jones - May 11, 2005 11:35 am (#8 of 594)

Any further discussion of Spinners End, not in conjunction with the discussion about Godric's Hollow, needs to be directed to the HBP Title thread.

I think it might be possible that Spinners End might be the name of the house the Potters lived in in the villiage of Godric's Hollow. Either way, I think it was their house, not just a safe house. Both Hagrid and Sirius refer to it as 'their house' or 'James and Lily's house', so I think it did indeed belong to them. I think them going into hiding would've been taken care of by the Fidelius Charm as it would conceal both them and their house.

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Finn BV - May 13, 2005 4:22 pm (#9 of 594)

Ok, let's see if I can phrase this relating to Godric's Hollow and not Spinners End… :-)
I don't think James and Lily's House in Godric's Hollow was named Spinners End because, unless Chap 2 of HBP relates to the story of James and Lily's house being destroyed (and why would it? JKR would wait till Book 7 to reveal that information surely…), then we'll probably be visiting whatever Spinners End is, and going to Godric's Hollow to talk about Harry's parents -- dead -- is not such a great idea to make Harry feel happy.

>>S.E. Jones, I will post this in the HBP Chapter Titles thread as well, just in case…<<

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Lina - Jun 4, 2005 7:27 am (#10 of 594)

Maybe this should be put under "Fidelius charm" thread, but there are too many posts that I haven't read and I think it relates to the Godric Hollow as well.

In "The Dumbledore's watch" thread it is being discussed how DD knew so fast that James and Lily were dead and Harry was alive, and sent Hagrid to get Harry. This brought me to the new question - how were they able to find Harry? If Wormtail had told DD about the hiding of Potters, then he would have known that Sirius was not a Secret keeper. Did the Fidelius charm disappear once that the house was destroyed? Maybe I will repost it on the Fidelius thread after checking the thread.

But I find this interesting too: did they put their regular house under the Fidelius charm or they moved to a new place before casting the Fidelius charm?

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GryffEndora - Jun 4, 2005 9:19 am (#11 of 594)

Lina, that is indeed an excellent question. How did DD and Hagrid find them if they were hidden and didn't know Peter was the secret keeper? Hmmmm. I'll have to think on this one. Perhaps it has to do with the deaths of Lily & James? Or perhaps Peter wrote members of the Order notes telling them where to find the Potters (like DD did for Harry) and everyone assumed that Sirius wrote them. This would be an easy assumption to make if Sirius was the one to distribute the notes.

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Solitaire - Jun 4, 2005 1:32 pm (#12 of 594)

Could someone have fired off the Dark Mark over their house? Another DE, perhaps? Peter, perhaps?

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Jessalynn Quirky - Jun 4, 2005 2:50 pm (#13 of 594)

Then how would he know Harry was alive? If the Death Mark is there, wouldn't he assume all members of the family had died? Unless they decided to search for survivors......

Oh, wait, here's a theory: Suppose James and/or Lily somehow alerted Dumbledore when Voldemort attacked, but Dumbledore knew he would not be able to get there fast enough. He could only hope that they would somehow survive; he sends Hagrid over to look for survivors, Hagrid finds Harry, and brings him to #4. Dumbledore by now has figured out what happened, and has decided to put the charm on Harry and leave him with his aunt.

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GryffEndora - Jun 4, 2005 3:01 pm (#14 of 594)

Jessalynn - How would Hagrid or DD know where to look if Peter didn't tell them? Harry, James & Lily were being hidden with the fidelius charm and Peter is the secret keeper. For anyone to know where they are Peter has to tell them in some way.

I'm sticking with my earlier written notes distributed by Sirius theory.

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Choices - Jun 4, 2005 5:51 pm (#15 of 594)

I think once James and Lily were dead, the charm was broken since it was no longer needed.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 5, 2005 5:33 am (#16 of 594)

I agree with Choices. That may be why Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily right off too, because he wanted the Fidelius Charm to stay up until after Harry was dead.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 5, 2005 8:42 am (#17 of 594)

Other people could know where the Potters were, they just wouldn't be able to see them unless they were told by the Secret-Keeper or the charm was broken. I'm sure that those close to the Potters knew where they lived, but the house would've vanished, for them, once the spell had been performed.

As to how Dumbledore knew, I'm betting there was a portrait in the house that was able to contact Dumbledore once the attack had begun and what happened when it was all over. Then it was just a matter of sending Hagrid to the location as the spell would've broken.

I think the house in Godric's Hollow is, indeed, James and Lily's actual house. Both Sirius and Hagrid refer to it that way, and I'm pretty sure someone else did as well.

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Choices - Jun 5, 2005 5:53 pm (#18 of 594)

S.E. Jones - "but the house would've vanished, for them, once the spell had been performed."

But, doesn't it say that Voldemort could have had his nose pressed up against the window and wouldn't have seen them? Then I think the house had to be visible - maybe it was just James, Lily and Harry who couldn't be seen?

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GryffEndora - Jun 5, 2005 6:27 pm (#19 of 594)

Choices - Then I think the house had to be visible - maybe it was just James, Lily and Harry who couldn't be seen?

So how would anyone be able to see Harry? I think if the spell was on Harry, and I definitely think it was, that the spell would stay intact until the counter spell. I guess the failed AK could have broken the spell.

Maybe I should have voted for the Fidelius Charm book on the vote thread. This is confusing.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 5, 2005 6:42 pm (#20 of 594)
Edited Jun 5, 2005 7:45 pm

I think that the comment about being able to press your nose against the glass but still not see them refers to the house disappearing for the person not in on the secret, mentally, but still being physically there. So the window would've been there to press your nose against, but you wouldn't know it.

Anyway, that's how I interpret the charm.

EDIT: I don't think you can put a Fidelius Charm on a person. If you could, why wouldn't Dumbledore just put it on Sirius? Instead, he put it on the house. True, the house was being used as HQ, but he could've still performed a second charm on Sirius, just to be safe, and written "P.S. Sirius is at 12 Grimmauld Place, too". I think this all points to the house, not the Potters, being covered in the charm.

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Lina - Jun 6, 2005 5:08 am (#21 of 594)

Now, maybe I'm guilty and it all belongs to the Fidelius charm thread, I did post some of my thoughts on that thread too.

But. If the Fidelius charm can be applied only to the house, does it mean that James, Lily and Harry were uncovered when outside of the house? If they chose to put the Fidelius charm to the house they already were living in, than it would be enough for Voldemort to come near the house and wait for them to come out. At least to come to the village he knew they lived in. "Seeing" the invisible house would tell him right away that it is under the Fidelius charm.

Did someone mention that the charm could have been broken when the house was destroyed? Because I like that idea as the explanation on how could Hagrid find Harry. It would have been awful if Harry remained hidden and all alone. No, wait, in that case Sirius could have saved him. And that is probably what happened.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 6, 2005 9:02 am (#22 of 594)

If they were in hiding, then they probably had provisions inside the house and plans for Peter, or maybe Sirius (who apparently was in on the secret) to bring them food. Possibly they used the Floo network, or summoned the food from elsewhere as we've seen Molly do.

Again, if the Fidelius Charm could be put on a person (or persons), I'd think that Dumbledore would've used it on Sirius (which he didn't).

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GryffEndora - Jun 6, 2005 1:32 pm (#23 of 594)

S.E. Jones - Your idea seems the most logical to me. Once the house was destroyed, Harry could be found by anyone who looked for him. Hagrid & DD need not have been told by the secret keeper and there is no confusion as why they didn't know it was Peter. I do think there was a portrait to warn DD or James &/or Lily used the Order's Method of Communication to send an SOS to DD so he dispatched Hagrid to fetch Harry knowing James & Lily were dead.

Although they were living as muggles in Godric's Hollow, I think they could still floo in & out to get supplies or to an Order meeting if necessary. I doubt they left the confines of the Fidelius House though. If it were my child I don't think I'd risk it, especially knowing there is a spy in the Order. They could use a portrait or the Order's Method of Communication to stay in the loop about meetings, plans and such.

What I'm trying to say - but it's taking way too many words - is thank you for this explanation. I think you are right and will continue to do so until another more plausible theory comes along (not likely), or Jo says differently.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jun 6, 2005 8:06 pm (#24 of 594)
Edited Jun 6, 2005 9:17 pm

The Fidelius charm, I would say is a charm to be used only for homes and buildings. Otherwise Sirius would not have been cooped up at Grimmauld Place all summer.

When Sirius exited Grimmauld Place, he had turned to Padfoot to be disguised. So likewise, once the Potters were out of Godric's Hollow, whether because they existed or because the building is destroyed and no longer has the enclosing walls, the charm is broken.

The question that nags me most is how did Dumbledore know so quickly that the Potters were attacked and when did he know? While the attack was going on? Or was it right after it happened? Did the Potters have a two-way mirror with DD, or was a portrait stationed in the house to summon DD? With what we know, I think a portrait is most plausible. The portrait would take time to locate DD but could keep searching for DD if it's first attempt to reach him didn't work.

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Lina - Jun 6, 2005 10:06 pm (#25 of 594)

I like the idea of the portrait. But there is a theory on "the Dumbledore's watch" thread that I like very much too.

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Miriam Huber - Jun 7, 2005 4:40 am (#26 of 594)

Or perhaps Sirius had lent Dumbledore his two-way mirror, James having the other one? Imagine him, white and panicking, shouting into the mirror: "Dumbledore! It´s him! Voldemort!"

I don´t believe it myself, but it is just a possibility.

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hells456 - Jun 7, 2005 12:57 pm (#27 of 594)

Or maybe Dumbledore had a portrait of James (fairly likely if he was the Heir of Gryffindor) and he knew he had died when it came to life. That's assuming a lot I know.

I think Dumbledore and Hagrid would both have been told where they were. If they trusted Dumbledore they would probably have trusted Hagrid too, after all we know that DD trusts Hagrid with his own life.

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ellebell86 - Jun 7, 2005 7:01 pm (#28 of 594)

Godric's Hollow is probably not as well protected as 12 Grimmauld Place. Mr. Black put all kinds of spells on the house to hide it. I don't think that Godric's Hollow would be invisible even with the Fidelius Charm. There is probably a portrait of Godric Gryffindor at Godric's Hollow and one in Dumbledore's office.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 7, 2005 7:56 pm (#29 of 594)
Edited Jun 7, 2005 8:58 pm

--Godric's Hollow is probably not as well protected as 12 Grimwald Place. Mr. Black put all kinds of spells on the house to hide it. I don't think that Godric's Hollow would be invisible even with the Fidelius Charm.--ellebell86

Mr. Black did put all sorts of charms on the house, true, but from what we've seen, it was the Fidelius Charm that made the house disappear from view. I say this because it wasn't until Harry read the note written by Dumbledore (the Secret-Keeper) that the house appeared. If other charms were what kept it from appearing when he first approached, then why would just being let in on the secret by the Secret-Keeper allow the house to appear? We know that Mr. Black kept Muggles out by making the place Unplottable, which may be why Muggles walk by the Leaky Cauldron without seeing it. However, wizards can still see it, so that isn't the only thing that protects Grimmauld Place from view. We also know that Sirius referred to the house being impossible to find without Dumbledore telling someone, so that also points to the Fidelius Charm being what makes the house "disappear".

Dumbledore's Secret-Keeper for the Order, you know - nobody can find headquarters unless he tells them personally where it is....

I agree that Godric's Hollow didn't have the security measures that Grimmauld Place does, but I think we can assume that the Fidelius Charm would be enough to make the Potters' house disappear for all intents and purposes.

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frogface - Jun 8, 2005 4:10 am (#30 of 594)

I like the idea that Dumbledore had a clock much like the Weasley's own, that indicates where someone is. If the hands were pointing at mortal peril, Dumbledore would probably assume the worst immediately.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 8, 2005 4:58 am (#31 of 594)

My only problem with the clock is that Hagrid was told to fetch Harry, not any survivors (as far as I can tell), so the watch would have to show 'dead' as a position, or how else could he know that Harry's mortal peril (he was being AK'ed) and Harry's parents' mortal peril were different....

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frogface - Jun 8, 2005 6:51 am (#32 of 594)

True...back to the drawing board!

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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 8, 2005 11:19 am (#33 of 594)

Is there any reason the clock couldn't have "dead" for a position? Or for the names to fade from the hands when they die?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 8, 2005 4:32 pm (#34 of 594)
Edited Jun 8, 2005 5:38 pm

I guess that's a possibility.

I'm still leaning toward a portrait since we've been seeing more and more of just how active a role they can take.

EDIT: If it was a portrait that warned Dumbledore that night, why do you think the portrait would've been there and in Dumbledore's office (I'm assuming)? Did Dumbledore give the Potters a copy of a headmaster/mistress's portrait to keep in touch with them? Did James have a relative hanging on Dumbledore's office wall and over the family fireplace?

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applepie - Jun 8, 2005 7:18 pm (#35 of 594)

I think it was a portrait too, and I definitely think you are on the right track, S.E. Jones. There was probably some distant relative that would have been in Dumbledore's office, and in the Potters' house.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jun 8, 2005 9:08 pm (#36 of 594)
Edited Jun 8, 2005 10:13 pm

I wouldn't doubt that James Potter has an ancestor whose portrait hangs in Dumbledore office. I have a certain expectation of something like that.

On the Spinners End connection, I don't know exactly why, but my first impression is that Godric's Hallow is not at Spinner's End. The connotation of the name "Spinner's" is less than noble or stong, or completely truthful. The dictionary defines spinner this way:

1. One that spins: a spinner of flax; a spinner of tall tales. 2. A fishing lure that rotates rapidly. 3. A fairing fitted over the hub of the propeller in some aircraft. 4. Games. A device consisting of a dial and an arrow that is spun to indicate the next move in some board games.

I can't find my copy of QA, but if I remember correctly, it was a Gryffindor (Godric?), who was a smith that invented the Golden Snitch. A smith is work of strength, and the Snitch is an object/creature of strength and nobility and even an intelligence. When I think of "spinner's" it doesn't sound like place for the home of Godric Gryffindor or his descendants.

Perhaps I am making too much of a connection that hasn't yet been proven, and certainly, we'll only know when JK deems it, but I don't associate Godric's Hollow and Spinners end.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 8, 2005 9:24 pm (#37 of 594)

It was Bowman Wright who created the snitch. All the book said was that he was from Godric's Hollow.

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frogface - Jun 9, 2005 3:15 am (#38 of 594)

Plus, all we know about Godric's Hollow is that it’s a village. (I think JKR has said that anyway - I could just be going bonkers...it’s been suggested)

If Godric's Hollow is a village then Spinner's End could have been the name of the cottage where the Potters lived.

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Steve Newton - Jun 9, 2005 4:18 am (#39 of 594)

Just to be picky. It's Spinners End. No apostrophe.

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frogface - Jun 9, 2005 6:34 am (#40 of 594)
Edited Jun 9, 2005 7:34 am

Sorry, bit of a habit of mine!!! from now on its Spinner's End...i mean Spinners Razz

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 14, 2005 6:33 pm (#41 of 594)

A question is it possible that there is a connection between Godric's Hollow and the new character of McLagan I am curious because, in doing research on the name McLagan I found that it was derived from the Celtic word for a hollow?

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GryffEndora - Jun 15, 2005 10:46 am (#42 of 594)

Nathan, I believe the spelling is Maclaggen. I don't think we know either way if he is connected or not. It's certainly possible. Celtic for hollow, huh? Interesting . . .

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 15, 2005 12:21 pm (#43 of 594)
Edited Jun 15, 2005 1:36 pm

GryffEndora, I did not realize I had the spelling wrong. I checked under the spelling you provided above and I have found nothing that could tend to indicate an alternate meaning.

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GryffEndora - Jun 15, 2005 6:28 pm (#44 of 594)

Nathan I'm sure they are variations of the same name. I think you are doing great research. Keep it up!

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hells456 - Jun 17, 2005 1:53 pm (#45 of 594)

JKR actually says: "I found the name McClaggan the other day"

I think she just liked the name. She also says in The Connection 12 October 1999: "I’m big on names. I like names, generally. You have to be really careful giving me your name if it’s an unusual one because you will turn up in Book 6."

It sounds to me like she was always going to look out for a good name for this character and that the name she picks doesn't have any other special meaning. She made the announcement a couple of days after Ian McClaggan (from Little Faces) was on the radio. She could have got the name from him.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jun 21, 2005 9:00 pm (#46 of 594)
Edited Jun 21, 2005 10:04 pm

I made a pig’s ear of my last post on the connection between Godric's Hallow and Spinners end. The point I was trying to make is that throughout the series, the Potter's, James, Lily, and Harry seem to be people of great strength, moral character (yes we do all have a tiny faults) and possibly even a bit noble. "Spinners" is not a word that I associate with those characteristics.

On the Dumbledore's Watch thread, someone posted that perhaps DD had a watch, that he carries like the Light Putter-out thing. That way, he would have known instantly that the Potters had been attacked with James and Lily dead and Harry "in mortal" danger. Once Voldemort destroyed the house, the Fidelius charm is broken and Hagrid could then see the house and retrieve Harry. The watch would probably be an even more effective method of instant communicating than the portraits.

Time only will tell but I do think that the rubble of the house at Godric's Hallow has remained as is, all these years. The muggles would not have bothered going to that area and wizards fear it. DD would have left it be until Harry could return to it.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 21, 2005 9:03 pm (#47 of 594)

I have to agree that the house would've been left as is all this time. The Riddle house was left as is for years as well, so it just seems right that the Potter house would likewise be left.

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Solitaire - Jun 21, 2005 9:57 pm (#48 of 594)

Didn't Hagrid say the Potters' home was in ruins when he arrived there? If so, possibly the Muggles might have cleared away the rubble, if they weren't afraid of the house. You know how Muggles are ... I think the Riddle house would be scarier than the Potter house.

Solitaire

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S.E. Jones - Jun 21, 2005 11:10 pm (#49 of 594)

Well, if the house was on private land, they would have no reason to remove the rubble.

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frogface - Jun 22, 2005 12:56 am (#50 of 594)

It depends whether James and Lily decided to put Muggle Repelling spells on it etc, and whether those spells would remain
intact if the house was destroyed.

I don't think that Spinners End is built over Godric's Hollow because it appears in Chapter Two of the book, and so if it is a house or a building of some kind, I doubt that somewhere so important as the location of the Potter's old house would be revealed so early on in the story.

And I'm not so sure that the remains of the house will be important anymore because if there were any clues there about anything important I'm sure they would have been found before now. I'm sure the ruin of Godric's Hollow would have been thoroughly searched by DD or someone else. It seems more likely to me that visiting the house of the night of the Potter's deaths via the pensieve could be useful, and at the same time very painful for Harry. But it would be a massive plot point I'm the series if we did get to see the events of that night in clearer detail. If we are going to see, then I hope it’s in HBP!

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 13, 2005 8:55 am (#51 of 594)
Edited Jul 13, 2005 10:00 am

Have you seen the new art work released from the US edition? I haven't been able to really study it yet. It shows the back of a man walking in a woodsy area and it looks like there is a building in the ahead of him. Godric's Hollow?

Edit: My apologies, it's the "slip case cover artwork". (I'm not sure what that means, maybe artwork from the cases). Dumbledore and Harry are behind and the door seems to have an "S" on it.

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Madam Pince - Jul 13, 2005 3:29 pm (#52 of 594)

Where did you find this artwork, Mrs. Sirius?

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Jessalynn Quirky - Jul 13, 2005 3:47 pm (#53 of 594)

I'd like to know where you found the artwork as well.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 13, 2005 4:25 pm (#54 of 594)
Edited Jul 13, 2005 5:28 pm

It's at HPANA and Leaky. Also there is great discussion on this on HB6-The Half-Blood Prince, thread under theories.

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Thread closed down for 16 days during release of Half-Blood Prince

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irish flutterby - Aug 1, 2005 6:48 am (#55 of 594)

A question about Godric's Hollow. I can't figure out where else to post it. If there weren't more people at Godric's hollow than just LV, why didn't Lily take Harry and run while James took on Voldy?

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Madam Pince - Aug 1, 2005 7:01 pm (#56 of 594)

Brandi, in the "Theories" section, there is a thread I started a long time ago called "Was It Snape At Godric's Hollow That Night?" which you might be interested in. If you read the whole thread, there are many theories (all of them excellent) by various forum members that explore all the questions of that fateful night, or expand out from the original theory of mine, which incidentally presumes that James was probably already dead at Voldy's hand by the time Lily even realized he was in Godric's Hollow.

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frogface - Aug 3, 2005 9:44 am (#57 of 594)

I was quite disappointed we didn't get to see Godric's Hollow or get more back story on the marauder's in HBP, however now that we know Harry plans to go to Godric's Hollow and also visit his parent's graves I'm very excited. The only problem being it looks like we'll all have about two years to wait for it!

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Betelgeuse Black - Aug 5, 2005 3:20 pm (#58 of 594)

I think we'll find out what happened at Godric's hollow pretty early on in Book 7. My prediction is that Harry will visit the house but he'll only get the real story when he examines what happened in the pensieve.

Betelgeuse

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The Sword and the Lion - Aug 6, 2005 4:54 pm (#59 of 594)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 5:54 pm

How is that possible though? Whose memories can Harry use to discover what happened?

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Susurro Notities - Aug 6, 2005 7:37 pm (#60 of 594)

Perhaps there are some Snape memories lingering at Hogwarts or possibly a Dumbledore memory of Snape's description of the event?

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S.E. Jones - Aug 6, 2005 8:33 pm (#61 of 594)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 9:34 pm

Or maybe Harry will be able to extract his own memory of the night his parents died... We know the information is in the dark recesses of his mind somewhere as we've seen it forcibly pushed to the front of his thoughts when he encountered the Dementors in PoA. We also know that he was able to recall Voldemort's laugh after being told about that night by Hagrid, whereas, previously, he could only recall the flash of green light. Maybe actually being present in Godric's Hollow will help to awaken more of the memory, enough for Harry to be able to pull it out and put it in a pensieve or at least give us a better narrative of what transpired that night.

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mike miller - Aug 7, 2005 2:03 pm (#62 of 594)

Or perhaps Voldemort's memory.....time for Harry to start exploiting his connection to Voldemort's mind.

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Paulus Maximus - Aug 7, 2005 3:08 pm (#63 of 594)

But how would he do that? Voldemort is much better at Occlumency AND Legilimency than Harry is...

Of course, I have had fantasies about Harry performing Legilimency on himself and probing the connection between him and Voldemort...

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Steve Newton - Aug 7, 2005 4:21 pm (#64 of 594)

At the end of GOF Harry seemed to have more raw magical power than Voldemort. Voldemort also does not seem to be able to stand being in Harry. I think that would give Harry and edge in any attemt that Harry might make in getting something from Voldemort.

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Verbina - Aug 8, 2005 10:16 am (#65 of 594)

I am thinking that Godric's Hollow is a village obviously. And since we know that Hogsmeade is the only all-wizarding world village in England, the town is likely mainly muggles. That means that there is very likely information still in the village about the explosion of the house. I am sure, 16-17 years ago, Lily, James and Harry were noticed about the village. Someone there in the village may know something about them that Harry has to find out before he can face Voldemort. Like perhaps the arrival of Voldemort to the village if anyone saw him. Or perhaps someone saw someone other than Voldemort there...

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mike miller - Aug 8, 2005 11:24 am (#66 of 594)

Paulus - Voldemort marked Harry as his equal. He imparted to Harry powers he has yet to discover, much less control. DD has the ability to "feel" where magic has been performed; and, even the wizard who performed it. Harry needs to sharpen this skill. I think the connection to Voldemort will help Harry in this regard, especially as it relates to "residual magical energy" left behind by Harry's adversary. Godric's Hollow (place of major life changing event) could be the catalyst for Harry to understand and develop this skill.

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irish flutterby - Aug 16, 2005 5:38 pm (#67 of 594)

I would not be surprised to find (or for Harry to find, I should say) that there is a squib living in Godric's Hollow. The MoM would not have any record of it, as they had no idea that Mrs. Figg lived in Little Whinging. Don't know how Harry will find out, though, unless that person recognized him or found out he was looking for info into the Potters' deaths.

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Mrs. Sirius - Aug 21, 2005 10:44 pm (#68 of 594)

Although I have felt Harry/we would need to go to Godric's Hollow before the end of the book 7, I now wonder what Harry is planning to do there. It all started there, but there isn't anything there now. Voldemort isn't there, Dumbledore, as far as Harry knows is dead, and his task is to destroy those Horcruxes and then Voldemort. So what is Harry planning to do there other than see his parents graves?

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haymoni - Aug 22, 2005 5:32 am (#69 of 594)

Yes - I suppose he could ask the Muggles in the village what they know, but if their memories have been modified, they won't be much help.

Perhaps Lupin will join him?

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Soul Search - Aug 22, 2005 6:13 am (#70 of 594)
Edited Aug 22, 2005 7:58 am

JKR doesn't spring important things on us; everything that has happened has some backstory, at least a mention. Even trivial things are usually given some background mention before any significance to the storyline. Everything fits, at least in hindsight.

An obvious major background reference is Hagrid's mention of Sirius Black in the first chapter of SS/PS and a whole book, PoA, being about Sirius Black.

Godric's Hollow is first mentioned in the first chapter of SS/PS and again in each book. At least enough so the background for Godric's Hollow, the place, is well established.

Yet, throughout all six books, Harry never expresses any interest in the place, even though it was where he lived with his parents, where they met their deaths, and where he became "the boy who lived."

Now, out of the blue, Harry wants to visit Godric's Hollow. Why? What will happen?

Part of it could be Harry's coming into his own. At the end of HBP Harry realizes that, for the first time, he is completely on his own and he can do what HE wants, rather than what some authority figure has destined for him. Perhaps, visiting Godric's Hollow has been on his mind, just never expressed.

Or Harry's visit to Godric's Hollow could, itself, be background for something else.

Harry finds something, say the Gryffindor item Voldemort was going to use for a horcrux. (How this helps, I don't know.)

Harry discovers some relatives he didn't know he had. Maybe some cousins, great grandparents, etc. The whole Potter line can't be dead, although there probably weren't any other Potters at Hogwarts. (But Harry missed most of the sortings and there is little mention of students older than Harry. Could Harry missing sortings be significant?)

Harry meets someone that can tell him exactly what happened the night Voldemort came to Godric’s Hollow. Perhaps, someone that can tell Harry who else was there, too. Probably Snape. I have always wondered how Dumbledore knew what happened so soon that he could have dispatched Hagrid to get there to rescue Harry even before the muggles came around. One thought is that Harry learns something about Snape that starts him wondering if Snape is really as evil as Harry thinks now.

Harry discovers he has inherited a house, rebuilt, and some family treasures, and maybe something significant. Maybe a letter from his parents, or something. What would be useful to him?

Where is Godric’s Hollow? Could it be near Little Hangleton? Is his trip to Godric’s Hollow just the mechanism for Harry to find and visit the Riddle House? Graveyard? Gaunt cabin? Could Godric’s Hollow be near Spinner's End? Near #4 Privet Drive?

Godric’s Hollow is where Harry will confront Voldemort. His going there, early in book 7, is the background for the confrontation scene. (I like it that the end is where it all started. Seems to fit, which probably means it won't, since my prediction track record is about zero.)

No doubt Godric’s Hollow, and Harry's visit, are going to be significant to the storyline. Our mission is to figure out just how. What else do we fans have to do for two long years?

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irish flutterby - Aug 22, 2005 8:38 am (#71 of 594)

Although I have felt Harry/we would need to go to Godric's Hollow before the end of the book 7, I now wonder what Harry is planning to do there. It all started there, but there isn't anything there now. Voldemort isn't there, Dumbledore, as far as Harry knows is dead, and his task is to destroy those Horcruxes and then Voldemort. So what is Harry planning to do there other than see his parents graves?

I think it could just be that seeing the place may bring back some suppressed memories for Harry. We know that subconsciously he has a clear recollection of what happened that night. Maybe going to GH (Godric's Hollow) will help refire those memories.

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Soul Search - Aug 23, 2005 6:04 am (#72 of 594)

irish flutterby -- I like your Harry's recalling a "suppressed memory" idea.

We have a lot of background for it, too. Harry's dream of a flying motorcycle in SS/PS, dreams with green flashes, and Harry's reliving the Voldemort scene under the influence of dementors.

It would well fit the background we have if Harry's visit to Godric’s Hollow, perhaps seeing the Potter house, triggered much more detailed memories.

There are some things that we don't yet know:

Who was there? Voldemort, James, Lily, and Harry. Probably Wormtail too. He had to show Voldemort where the Potters were, not just tell him. Also, how else did Voldemort get his own wand back, if Wormtail wasn't at Godric’s Hollow to retrieve it. My guess is that Snape was also there, or came in at the end; this will be significant to Harry.

What wizard friends of the Potters showed up afterward. We know Hagrid showed up before muggles came 'round (but not how he knew to go there), but there is no mention of any wizards being around. Surely the Potters had wizard friends in Godric’s Hollow. (Is Godric’s Hollow the name of the Potters' house, or a town? Is there a significance to the name, Godric? as in Gryffindor.)

What happened to Harry between Hagrid picking him up and being delivered on the Dursley's doorstep. A rather long blank period, well discussed on other threads.

Voldemort was planning on using Harry's murder to create his sixth horcrux. Could Harry remember something related to it; perhaps the item to be used for the horcrux?

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Robert Dierken - Aug 23, 2005 2:30 pm (#73 of 594)

Godric's Hollow is a town, and Bowman Wright lived there.


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Soul Search - Aug 24, 2005 9:05 am (#75 of 594)

Robert Dierken -- Thanks for the Godric's Hollow info. I assume Bowman Wright was a famous wizard or something from the web site? Anyway, a town makes the most sense, and, with such a name, suggests wizard friends there to come around to see what has happened.

They will recognize Harry when he visits and will probably have a lot to tell him. In fact, that could be the storyline reason for Harry's visit. There is something important Harry needs to know, and someone that was there, if late, may have it.

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irish flutterby - Aug 24, 2005 12:50 pm (#76 of 594)
Edited Aug 24, 2005 1:51 pm

They will recognize Harry when he visits and will probably have a lot to tell him The only thing I have to say about it is (and it may simply be a wording issue) I think “recognize” may be an incorrect term. Every wizard knows about "the boy who lived", and, thanks to the Daily Prophet, every wizard will have seen at least a picture of him. I guess it's just that when you say "recognize" I feel like you mean a coincidental “oh hey wait aren't you....". But if there are wizards in GH, I think it'll spread like wild fire that he's there. And we may find people tracking him down to help. Then again, they may be too terrified to do so.

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The giant squid - Aug 25, 2005 12:15 am (#77 of 594)

Bowman Wright was first mentioned in Quidditch Through the Ages, a book for charity that JKR wrote, as the inventor of the Golden Snitch. All we know about him is what he invented & where he lived.

--Mike

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Verbina - Aug 27, 2005 1:47 pm (#78 of 594)

It is possible though that even Muggles would recognize him.

Somehow I can see it being somewhat like this:

“Doesn't that young man look familiar? He looks like that....James Potter! You remember the Potter family. Lovely couple and they had a little boy. Charming people. Remember, their house blew up and no one ever found any sign of James, his wife or the boy? Such a sad thing.”

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irish flutterby - Aug 27, 2005 5:33 pm (#79 of 594)

Any chance of Harry learning how to anti-obliviate? Maybe they know more than they remember about the night Harry the Potter's were killed.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 29, 2005 4:46 pm (#80 of 594)
Edited Aug 29, 2005 6:30 pm

Here's a thought maybe you've got the goods on - A person whose been given the location to a (Fidelius Charm) house like #12 or Godrics Hollow doesn't actually enter into a vow or contract; or at least Harry didn't at #12. The question, then, is WHY can't a person who knows how to get there take someone else along? I know the easy answers to that (easy because I've read them here) but there must be loopholes.

  • Did someone hand Buckbeak a note? Maybe creatures (like Doxies) don't need one.

  • How will Harry know how to get to Godrics Hollow? Find Peter??

  • If he learned the secret as a baby, how can he take Ron & Hermione?

  • Peter Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper. I guess he would have had to tell Professor Dumbledore the secret. How did Hagrid learn it? Must we assume PP gave it to him? Doesn't feel right.

  • Is it safe to assume that Cornelius Fudge was only involved in the street out in front and never saw or went in the house?

I'm sorry, too many questions at once.

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irish flutterby - Aug 29, 2005 4:50 pm (#81 of 594)

IS it possible that as PP was supposed to be protecting the Potters, the Fidelius charm worked where they were? I mean, could the vow being to them be null and void when they died? Fidelius lifted. Or when the vow was broken, could anyone find it then?

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Soul Search - Aug 29, 2005 6:04 pm (#82 of 594)

Not sure Wormtail broke any vow. He just showed Voldemort where they lived. Just like Dumbledore showing Harry (via the note) where the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix was.

Interesting if the charm is still in effect. Harry lived there, so he may be able to find it, but what about Ron and Hermione.

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haymoni - Aug 29, 2005 6:15 pm (#83 of 594)

As Godric's Hollow is a village, I don't know that saying "They are in Godric's Hollow" would be enough. I think we were given the example that Voldy could be peering in the window of the house & still not see them, unless the Secret Keeper revealed the location.

Wormtail became the Secret-Keeper and he revealed their location to Voldy. House # and all.

I'm guessing Harry will be fumbling around until someone sets him straight. It could be Lupin. It could be a villager.

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Elanor - Aug 29, 2005 9:06 pm (#84 of 594)
Edited Aug 29, 2005 10:07 pm

The Fidelius Charm must have lifted after James and Lily's death, since Hagrid could search the rubbles of the house and see Harry.

Lupin could indeed guide him (them) there but what if Harry finally realises that he can "feel" where magic has been done, just like DD did in the HBP? I'm sure this wasn't put in the HBP by chance and that Harry will have eventually to do this too, why not in Godric's Hollow? Or maybe so to find another horcrux of course.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 30, 2005 4:38 am (#85 of 594)

The house was in ruins, though maybe not rubble.

If it were, and visible to Muggles, it would have been leveled within the week. Or perhaps it was renovated and sold to...the Simpsons. In either case there would be no point in Harry going there. A reverse kind of foreshadowing would have taken place - some story discounting the importance of the present day home of the Potters.

Therefore, in order for it to still exist after all these years, the charm must still be on it. (Perhaps it is also the house that belonged to James' parents and has old family things in it that DD wanted preserved for Harry when he grew up)

Lupin said he didn't know the secret when they were in the shrieking shack. Remember, they thought he might be the spy. And a villager can't see it.

At the Three Broomsticks, (ch 10 PoA) Hagrid says "I didn' know he'd been Lily and James' Secret-Keeper" referring to Sirius. What this really says is that Hagrid didn't know who the Secret-Keeper was. He never learned the secret but there he was to rescue Harry the same day it happened. How on earth??? My brain is mushed. Carry on.

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Soul Search - Aug 30, 2005 6:05 am (#86 of 594)

Would the Fidelius charm be for the house or the people, James, Lily, and Harry?

My guess is the people. And, the spell was left in effect until Harry went to Hogwarts. Part of the protections placed on Harry.

If a DE went looking for him, he couldn't be found.

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irish flutterby - Aug 30, 2005 3:53 pm (#87 of 594)

That was my point earlier, though I botched explaining it. As the charm was made for the Potters then the Potters should be able to know the place, and as two of the Potters are dead, what does that do to the charm? Especially as they are the ones who performed the charm? Also, There are ways to make places Unplottable by Muggles, but leave them available to wizards. Maybe wizards can still see it, but Muggles walk by and can't (like the Leaky Cauldron).

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Mrs. Sirius - Aug 30, 2005 9:19 pm (#88 of 594)
Edited Aug 30, 2005 10:21 pm

In OoTP when Harry arrived at Grimmauld Place, he could not see the building until he read DD's note. So the fidelius charm works on wizards as well as muggles and makes the building invisible.

Sirius lives at 12GP but the moment he leaves the house he becomes visible to all. Snape taunts him about staying safely indoors, so I would say the charm protects the person inside the edifice.

The discrepancy for me comes with, I'm not sure who said it perhaps Lupin, -you could look through the window of the house and not see the person-. Harry couldn't even see 12 Grimmauld Place until he read the note.

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Elanor - Aug 30, 2005 10:18 pm (#89 of 594)
Edited Aug 30, 2005 11:20 pm

Mrs. Sirius, that is exactly how I understand the way the Fidelius Charm works too, though you explained it far better than I could do.

Which brings me back to what I was saying before: if Hagrid (and Sirius BTW) were able to see the ruins of the house, James and Lily's bodies and Harry inside it, the charm had not to work anymore. But I can be wrong, it wouldn’t be the first time!

Actually, I was wondering if, more than the house, the most important thing for Harry to see there would be James and Lily's graves? BTW, isn't it interesting that Harrys says "my parents' graves", in the plural, at the end of the HBP? Were they not buried together? I know it is far-fetched but what if more than one grave was interesting in Godric's Hollow? If the Potter family has indeed lived there in the past, maybe the names on their graves will make him realise something important.

Unless, it is someone still alive that he will meet there that will become important to him: the memory of a witness, Fawkes or even Snape... OK, I stop here! LOL!

PS: Dame Peverell: "The house was in ruins, though maybe not rubble." You're right of course! I'm not a native English speaker and I should remember not to trust my memory when I post before 7 in the morning but check my dictionary (actually, maybe posting before breakfast is not that good an idea either!).

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Madam Pince - Aug 31, 2005 5:44 am (#90 of 594)

That's an interesting point about graves (plural), Elanor, and it might be a cultural thing. This is kind of a morbid topic maybe, but here goes: in France, is it most common for a married couple to be buried in the exact same grave plot, one on top of another? What about England? I truly don't know. I imagine it varies with the different parts of the country, but in my area of the U.S., it is most common for the two spouses to be buried each in their own separate gravesite, but right next to each other, although in graveyards that are very crowded, (and in military cemeteries) they are usually in the same plot, one on top of the other. And then of course there's above-ground mausoleums, too, and there's those ones that always remind me of the boxes at a post office -- sort of like drawers that are stacked several high.

Anyway, so maybe that could explain the grave / graves thing -- JKR is just used to having separate gravesites for each person?

I'm not even going to touch the whole Fidelius Charm thing -- I think it's way too confusing (and it's way too early in the morning). I do usually think of "ruin" and "rubble" as meaning essentially the same thing, and I would guess that whatever happened when Voldy's shot backfired, it probably broke open the Fidelius Charm. Lupin says something at the end of HBP that one of the flying hexes during the battle was what broke the charm that the DE’s had put on the steps going up into the Astronomy Tower, so it seems that a charm can be "broken" without someone specifically "taking it off" as it were.

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irish flutterby - Aug 31, 2005 3:07 pm (#91 of 594)

There are ways to make places Unplottable by Muggles, but leave them available to wizards. Maybe wizards can still see it, but Muggles walk by and can't (like the Leaky Cauldron).

I posted this in response to someone (can't remember who) saying that if the house had been left in ruin, it would have been torn down and done away with. If Muggles can't see it, and wizards know about the history, it wouldn't get torn down. I mean maybe DD put a similar spell on it after their deaths to prevent the Muggles from looting/tampering/ etc. Also, just to clarify my understanding, I believe the wording was that LV could be looking right through the living room window and not even know it. In other words, he would be unable to see the house or the people in it, but they would be able to see him, was my understanding.

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Soul Search - Sep 1, 2005 4:08 am (#92 of 594)
Edited Sep 1, 2005 5:10 am

In OotP the note Moody gives Harry says "The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix ..."

In PoA Flitwick's explanation "... could look in the window and not see them ..." (or something close.)

In OotP the Fidelius Charm had been performed on the place. To protect the Potters, the charm had been performed on the people.

So, my read is, anyone could have seen the Potter's house, just not them. Now, that doesn't mean that the Fidelius Charm was the only protection performed, but it does allow the "ruin" of the house to be viewed.

Thus, when Harry returns, he should be able to see whatever remains of the, probably "reparo'd" house.

Might be inconvenient having a house in a muggle town that no one could see. So, protections should allow the house to be seen.

That reparo spell is a wonder. Wouldn't mind being able to do that one myself. (As an off subject aside, why didn't Trelawny "reparo" the cups Neville broke? Can't she do the spell?)

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Dame Peverell - Sep 1, 2005 5:03 am (#93 of 594)
Edited Sep 1, 2005 6:07 am

How did Hagrid know how to find Godrics Hollow?

What I deduced was that if Muggles could see it in ruins, they would have had it torn down; hence, if it is still standing, the charm on the house must still be in effect. If the charm had been on the people, they wouldn't have had to go into hiding. They could have hid anywhere. Technically, the charm is supposed to work on either places or people. Perhaps both if two Fidelius Charms were set. The point is moot since we must conclude the house is still there and has the charm on it yet.

The Leaky Cauldron and St. Mungo's would have a different charm.

Godric’s Hollow is a town. It is also the term used to refer to the home of Lily and James. Godric is thought (?) to be the Godric in Godric Gryffindor.

For some reason (?) I had pictured their home as a small, suburban-type dwelling on the order of #4 Privet Drive. I think it was because I had thought that the PP/Sirius debacle had occurred out front in the street. Not so. It was the next day at another location.

This talk of graves has made me conclude that the home is probably more like the Riddle estate; with grounds big enough to accommodate a family graveyard. Why else assume they were buried in Godric’s Hollow at all? Wouldn't their bodies have been sent back to wherever James' parents were laid to rest? That there will be headstones with valuable information was a very shrewd guess, Elanor. It seems more likely now that it is the Potters ancestral home.

What I STILL can't get my mind around is: How did Hagrid know how to find it if he never even knew who the secret-keeper was. Is there a loophole? I am beginning to suspect JKR made a mistake here. By the way, I never heard, what was the final solution to the missing 24 hours problem? Did Hagrid maybe bury James and Lily before taking Harry to Petunias?

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Elanor - Sep 1, 2005 8:46 am (#94 of 594)
Edited Sep 1, 2005 9:48 am

Well, maybe DD knew in which town James and Lily's house was, without knowing where exactly it was, which was safe to know since the Fidelius Charm would protect them anyway. Come to think of it, even if DD knew where the house was, since the Secret Keeper had not told him the location after the charm was casted, I guess that even if he had gone there then, he couldn't have seen it, even if he knew where it was (if I understand how the Fidelius Charm works properly). But you're right Dame Peverell, those missing hours are curious indeed, very curious...

Madam Pince: "it might be a cultural thing. This is kind of a morbid topic maybe, but here goes: in France, is it most common for a married couple to be buried in the exact same grave plot, one on top of another?"

I guess you're right about that being a cultural thing. In France, not always but very often, a married couple is buried in the same grave plot, right next to each other (as in your region). The plot is then wide enough for that but there is only one headstone, with the names of all the members of the family buried there (a bit like on the GoF movie picture of the graveyard, with the mistaken names on it). At least, it is like this in the small churchyards of country villages, as I somehow imagine the Godric's Hollow graveyard to be, you know with very old family tombstones maybe around a medieval chapel, etc...

Those places are actually very interesting because you find there much information about a region's history, engraved on sometimes several centuries-old tombs. That's why I thought the Potter family graveyard could conceal some interesting information for Harry. But it is only a feeling I have and I can be completely wrong (it is even likely I am!).

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Verity - Sep 1, 2005 10:47 am (#95 of 594)

I always assumed that Hagrid and Sirius showed up at Godric's Hollow because they were in on the secret. The fact that Peter was the Potters' secret keeper didn't mean he was the only one who knew where to find them. Rather, it meant that he was the only one who could reveal that information. Hagrid and Sirius could have both known where Lily and James were hiding, but the charm would have prevented them from telling anyone else. Just as Snape knows where the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix is, but cannot tell anyone, not even Voldemort.

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vickilh42 - Sep 1, 2005 4:41 pm (#96 of 594)

Great posting everyone. It's interesting to get so many viewpoints and take so many tangents! We must remember though, that the Secretkeeper switch was unknown to Dumbledore(DD)...as far as canon has told us. Pettigrew would've had to reveal the secret--DD's prior knowledge wouldn't have matter. But DD didn't even know that Sirius was not Secretkeeper...that it was really Pettigrew. So DD was never told the secret or he would have been aware of the switch.

We can only assume that Pettigrew told Sirius. Sirius had gone to Pettigrew's hiding place, he was not there, and then set off for GH--Sirius seemed to be confident that he could get find the Potter House.

As to Hagrid, he was sent on the mission by Dumbledore so it is DD's knowledge of the Potter house that is in question. It has been speculated that DD had spies in Godric's Hollow watch out for DE activity and that the destruction of the Potter House was probably visible and their deaths broke the Fidelius Charm. Of course, there is also the speculation that DD's watch or other instruments somehow revealed the tragedy. If any of this holds water, then the idea holds that Hagrid (actually, everyone) was able to find the house, see the Potter bodies, and retrieve baby Harry.

My questions about Godric's Hollow have more to do with how did the wizarding world even have any information on the events of Halloween? Was it all speculation based upon what Hagrid observed and then later, the MoM team? And what physically happened to Tom? (Voldemort--I've chosen to only call him "Tom" as Dumbledore does!) What happened to Tom's body? His wand? We've no canon for a rebounding A.K. but we've also no canon for the A.K. curse disintegrating the body... and the same for the wand. Since Ms. Rowling won't comment if anyone else was at Godric's Hollow that night, this seems to indicate Tom was not alone when he went there.

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Mattew Bates - Sep 1, 2005 5:10 pm (#97 of 594)
Edited Sep 1, 2005 6:11 pm

I don't think Harry knew that Dumbledore was the secret keeper for 12GP, and Moody showed him the note for that secret. Similarly, Pettigrew could have written a note, signed it “Sirius,” and anyone could have shown it to key players. Even if the note was shown to the whole Order, the secret on the Potters would still be in effect.

(Actually, since the Potters hid in a particular place, I think it was the Potter House in Godric's Hollow that the Fidelius Charm was on, and people just said it was on the Potters because they were the ones staying there - especially if the charm is still active, because nobody can say "Potter Place" or whatever if it's still under Fidelius.)

So, assuming the charm is still in place - if Harry saw the note at one year old, and likely couldn't read it, would he still be in on the secret? If not, could he use a pensieve to retrieve the memory, read the note, and find his old house?

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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 1, 2005 9:07 pm (#98 of 594)

This talk of graves has made me conclude that the home is probably more like the Riddle estate; with grounds big enough to accommodate a family graveyard. Why else assume they were buried in Godrics Hollow at all? Wouldn't their bodies have been sent back to wherever James' parents were laid to rest

Godric's Hollow may well be James' family estate. His parents were dead JK has told us so, so there is no reason why that house might not be the family "estate' of an old pure blood Potter family.

My assumption is that anyone living under the fidelius charm, has the ability to go in and out of the home with that protection. As a wizard, Harry even at age one, probably had the information to permit him to go in and out of hiding in the fidelius charm, much as Sirius did at 12 Grimmauld. If the charm is still in place, I don't see why it would prevent Harry entering (or leaving) the premesis 15 years later.

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The giant squid - Sep 2, 2005 2:59 am (#99 of 594)

JKR has confirmed that Godric's Hollow is the name of the village, not the house. That does not preclude the Potter family estate being there, though the Potters were described as being "in hiding". I would find it odd to be hiding out in one's ancestral home...though they may have been trying the "last place they'd look" ploy.

--Mike

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Dame Peverell - Sep 2, 2005 5:14 am (#100 of 594)
Edited Sep 2, 2005 6:19 am

- - Hagrid with a Portkey in the Dining Room - -

What I STILL can't get my mind around is: How did Hagrid know how to find it if he never even knew whom the secret-keeper was. Is there a loophole? I am beginning to suspect JKR made a mistake here. By the way, I never heard, what was the final solution to the missing 24 hours problem? Did Hagrid maybe bury James and Lily before taking Harry to Petunias? - Fr:post#93

Hagrid and Sirius met when Hagrid picked up Harry. Hagrid left first with Harry on the motorcycle so I guess Sirius may have buried James and Lily. The missing 24 hours was a hot topic on the forums at one time and still seems unresolved.

Wracking my brain over how Hagrid knew how to find the house, I realized that Hagrid, unable to openly use magic, MUST have arrived at Godrics Hollow, perhaps right into the dining room, via a Portkey. It would have to be one that Dumbledore made in his office or the MoM would have showed up, which they never did.

DD, who didn't "know the secret" either, still knew about the attack immediately. He MUST have had a two-way mirror, a portrait or some such device in the house. I lean to the mirror, which would enable him to see where to "aim" the Portkey. This theory hinges on the ability of at least that particular Portkey being able to operate through the Fidelius Charm.

- - While visiting these events, a side note: Hagrid says "the ruins" when describing the house. (PoA ch 10) I don't have a copy of SS so it may be described differently somewhere else but, the Lexicon says, "it was destroyed" without giving a quote. I don't know about that. My dog can leave my house "in ruins" and I suspect much of the house is still standing. That's why its "destruction" didn't pin or injure Harry. - -

OK, moving on. Assuming that Harry will be able to "see" the house, he will still need someone to tell him where to look for it. “It’s south of town at the top of the hill” or whatever. But Ron and Hermione won't be able to go in unless Peter Pettigrew gets involved. It may not matter much.

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vickilh42 - Sep 2, 2005 5:15 am (#101 of 594)

As to what Harry will see when he goes to Godric's Hollow, I'm inclined to think that since this is the site of Voldemort's supposed demise, that the MoM would have deemed historically significant--and a sort of memorial for the Potters. Of course, if it was kept "as is" then maybe Harry will find something to shed light on the events of that night or some family heirlooms/backstory. Muggle protection charms would be appropriately in place!.

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Mattew Bates - Sep 2, 2005 8:55 am (#102 of 594)

Wracking my brain over how Hagrid knew how to find the house

DD, who didn't "know the secret" either,

Dame Peverell, there's no reason to believe that Dumbledore & Hagrid didn't know where the Potters were. They simply couldn't tell anyone where the Potters were. I'd hoped that I clarified that with my previous post (#97).

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kaykay1970 - Sep 2, 2005 9:32 am (#103 of 594)
Edited Sep 2, 2005 10:38 am

Dame Peverell-I told you in the chat room that I liked your portkey theory, but didn't know why Hagrid wouldn't just use the portkey to get back to where he came. Well, upon reflection, you have to touch the portkey and the sensation of said portkey would be pretty startling to a one-year old. Where would Harry wind up if he, for instance, let go? Anyway it is logical that Sirius would be checking in on the Potter's out of concern. He did know Peter was secret-keeper so he should know where to find them. Anyway, Sirius arrives right before or perhaps after Hagrid. Hagrid needs a new form of transportation now that he has Harry in tow,so Sirius provides it. I really can't think of a better way for Hagrid to arrive. He was expelled in third year so no apparating and espesially not side-along apparition.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 2, 2005 4:06 pm (#104 of 594)

Clarifying Hagrid with a Portkey in the Dining Room

  • Dumbledore didn't know about the switch to Peter, therefore Peter didn't tell him the "secret” (DD, PoA 21)
  • Hagrid says he thought Sirius was the "secret-keeper" so he didn't know the "secret" either. (Hagrid, PoA 10)


As to not using the Portkey to get back, Hagrid wasn't going back. He was to take Harry to Privet Drive. A Portkey would be hard on a baby. Maybe if Harry had been bleeding they would have risked it. Maybe DD or someone else came through with Hagrid and needed it to leave with later. In fact, it is at this time that the "missing 24 hours" problem raises its head.

Then there is this question: once Hagrid had walked outside and talked to Sirius, could he re-enter the house without knowing the “secret”? I feel brain mush piling up like a cloud of mist so I will let that one go for now. No way to know I guess without some other precedent.

I found where the house is described as destroyed now - but again, how destroyed, we can’t know yet. It could be unlivable and still standing. It never says something like “only a pile of rubble remained” or that it was “demolished” so there could be something in it Harry might find. Maybe he will find a mirror, a relic, and/or photographs.

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haymoni - Sep 2, 2005 4:38 pm (#105 of 594)

Only the Secret-Keeper can REVEAL the secret, not only the Secret-Keeper can KNOW the secret.

Sirius could have taken an ad out in the Daily Prophet - everyone would know the secret, but they couldn't tell it to anyone else.

The Secret-Keeper knows whom he/she has told, so they know who knows. If Sirius was the Secret Keeper for a period of time, he could have told Dumbledore, told Hagrid, told the Order Members, but none of them could have revealed it to anyone else.

Voldy is coming after Sirius because he knows that he is the Secret Keeper. Sirius convinces James to let Peter be the Secret Keeper so that Sirius can no longer reveal their whereabouts to anyone else, especially Voldy, not thinking that Peter would willingly tell Voldy.

I'm sure lots of people knew where James & Lily were, they just couldn't tell anybody. Just like none of the Trio can ever divulge the location of the headquarters of the Order.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 2, 2005 8:15 pm (#106 of 594)

Haymoni, we must be having a problem here. I'm not sure what it is, but I understand about reveal vs know.

Maybe it's that you are thinking Sirius was the Secret-Keeper before Peter. As far as I know, the Fidelius Charm was only performed the one time.

LV may think Sirius is the Secret Keeper based on some spy's report until Peter tells him how to find the Potter home.

The book says that the only people who knew the Secret were Peter, Sirius, James and Lily.

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haymoni - Sep 3, 2005 3:12 pm (#107 of 594)

Sirius was the Secret Keeper before Peter.

POA -

“THAT'S NOT TRUE! Harry yelled. "HE WAS THEIR SECRET-KEEPER! HE SAID SO BEFORE YOU TURNED UP. HE SAID HE KILLED THEM!"

He was pointing at Black, who shook his head slowly; the sunken eyes were suddenly overbright.

Harry...I as good as killed them, he croaked. "I persuaded Lily & James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me..."

I have always taken this to mean that Sirius was the Secret Keeper first and then convinced them to change to Peter. I can also see how one could read this as Sirius ALMOST becoming their Secret Keeper and asking them to use Peter instead.

However, even if he wasn't the Secret Keeper first, it doesn't mean that other people didn't know where the Potters were. They weren't the Secret Keeper so they couldn't tell Voldy. Once the change was made, only Peter could actually say where they were.

I cannot believe that Dumbledore didn't know where the Potters were every single minute. Especially since he knew the full Prophecy. He had even volunteered to be their Secret Keeper to ensure their safety.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 3, 2005 6:13 pm (#108 of 594)
Edited Sep 3, 2005 7:17 pm

  • There was only “the” one Fidelius Charm performed and LV attacked less than a week later.
  • Certainly Dumbledore knew where they were but Peter never told him the secret so he never “Knew the Secret”
  • DD himself could have been out in front and never seen it.
  • He must also have been in communication with them to know about the attack. In fact, the attack happened so fast that I doubt they had time to ring him up. That’s why I like the 2-way mirror idea so well. DD could see right into their home.
  • Hagrid also didn’t “know” the secret, or have the ability to get there so fast in any other way than a Portkey or maybe with Fawkes.


It is a rather stunning revelation, don’t you agree?

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haymoni - Sep 3, 2005 7:35 pm (#109 of 594)

I thought he took the motorcycle to get Harry.

Sirius gives it to him - "I won't be needing this." or whatever the quote was.

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Verbina - Sep 3, 2005 8:33 pm (#110 of 594)

Sirius said that to Hagrid at the site of what was left of the house. Hagrid was already there when Sirius gave him his motorcycle to get Harry away to safety.

I took what Sirius said to mean that James and Lily had asked Sirius to do be the Secret Keeper for them but for some reason, Sirius backed out at the last moment and had them change to Peter. So Sirius never had been the Secret Keeper. So he didn't really know where they were at. At least that is how I took it.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 5, 2005 7:05 pm (#111 of 594)
Edited Sep 5, 2005 8:20 pm

I have had some more thoughts regarding the events at Godric’s Hollow I would like to share with everybody.

First, the Lexicon says “ The place was swarming with Muggles” and I don’t understand why they say it or how that could be. It may be just movie pollution. JKR said she was involved with that scene but to what extent is unknown. The books never say anything about anyone besides Sirius and Hagrid being at the House in Godric’s Hollow, do they? The closest thing to it is Hagrid saying "I got Harry out before the Muggles started swarming around" but then he left on the motorcycle right away. An important consideration is that the MoM didn’t show up. According to Fudge, they were on the scene the next day, when Peter Pettigrew blew up a street, to modify the Muggles’ memories and to haul Sirius off to Azkaban. If there had been Muggles watching Sirius show up at Godric’s Hollow on his flying motorcycle in front of an exploded house, one would think the MoM would have turned up. There is no mention of the MoM at or within James & Lily’s house that I know of. Please correct me if I am mistaken in this.

The second conflict I have with the Lexicon version of events is that they say Hagrid didn’t stick around with Harry because it was “the scene of the disappearance of Voldemort, which would mean that the Death Eaters were also probably all over the place, looking for their master.” I don’t think Hagrid hung around. I think he took Harry and left and that Sirius spent the next hours burying bodies. What I can’t grasp is why the DE's would be around. Would Lord Voldemort have told PP to tell the DE's where Harry Potter was? I don’t think so but thinking about it is probably pointless.

Then the Lexicon says Hagrid left Harry at some unknown location and “encountered” Professor McGonagall. Is this true? I haven’t found it in a book. Did Hagrid go visit her in the movie? According to the book she just says Hagrid told her DD would be at #4 Privet Drive later that day. Typically, Hagrid would have just reached into his overcoat, pulled out an owl, and sent her a message; probably because Dumbledore told him to.

I don’t know how long it would take to get from Godric’s Hollow to #4 Privet Drive, on or over land via motorcycle, but I can see Hagrid stopping at a favored “watering hole” for a nip and a diaper change etc.. It would be logical at that point to send off a message that he had rescued Harry and expected to meet DD in front of #4 at midnight. I can also see that this would be when rumors first started to spread.

The Lexicon says the house was a two-story cottage, as in the movie but not in the book, so I’ll concede that the house in Godric’s Hollow isn’t an “old family estate” It is, rather, as I had first thought, within a village with a street and adjoining lots etc.. Perhaps it is the family home or that James’ parents’ home was nearby and that the Potters are buried in a Churchyard.

I am one of those who don’t care much for the HP movies after having read the books and so don’t have them to refer to. If you have them and can support or repudiate any of this please do; it can only help. I am reluctant to ask the Lexicon to re-word the entry without more input.

I am unsure how important the chain of events really is right after Hagrid leaves Godric’s Hollow with Harry. There are still some questions and so still some mysteries such as: Who buried Harry’s parents? Was this when Dumbledore “came into possession” of James’ Invisibility Cloak? Where exactly was the Peter Pettigrew debacle?

It is important to note that none of the above affects the theory that Hagrid used a Portkey or Fawkes to get to the Potters; nor that DD and the Potters were using 2 way mirrors to communicate.

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irish flutterby - Sep 6, 2005 5:19 pm (#112 of 594)

Just for my own clarification I have a few questions and ideas.

1) If someone knows the location of a home that is then put under the Fidelius Charm, that person, though they are not the secret keeper can still find said location without being informed of it's whereabouts; however, they cannot divulge its whereabouts to another person. Is this correct? In other words, Hagrid visits the Potters before the charm is put in place. He therefore knows how to find their house, and can visit at any point. He cannot, however, tell another person where it is. Am I correct?

2) We know that some magical means of transportation take longer than others. For example, a broom takes longer than a portkey, which doesn't take as long as the Hogwarts Express (which I assume is magical). Therefore, is it not possible that Godrics Hollow is a stinkin' long way from Little Whinging, and with stopping to change Harry's diapers, and feed him, etc., It could take Hagrid a whole day to get to Little Whinging on a motorbike that could take a great deal longer than apparating?

3) Is it possible that Hagrid did what Moody did in OoP - took the long way in order to avoid being sighted by Muggles and in order to shake off any DE's that might try to "tail" them?

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Maddest Dragon - Sep 6, 2005 7:50 pm (#113 of 594)

Number 12 Grimmauld Place was under a Fidelius Charm in OoP, and all the Order members could go there without being secret keeper. So yes, I would think anyone who knows the location can go there.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 6, 2005 9:12 pm (#114 of 594)
Edited Sep 6, 2005 10:20 pm

Peter Pettigrew's original sin, wasn't?

Not yet.

Apparently, there is a difference between knowing where it is and "Knowing" where it is... I know, I know...

But if you don't "Know the Secret" you can stand around on the right spot and never see the house.

Only the "Secret Keeper" can tell someone else the "Secret"

You can't "Know" the secret until "The Secret Keeper" tells you. When Harry first went to #12 he was given a note written by Professor Dumbledore which was handed to him by Moody, memorized, and then burned.OP3

That raises the question "Could DD's intention that only Harry see this note negate the possibility of it being used by another to get into #12?" I guess not. In other words, if, say, a Death Eater had gotten his hands on it, would he/she then "Know the Secret"??? I guess so.(What if Peter Pettigrew had a " Godric's Hollow Secret" note for DD and Lord Voldemort read his mind and then stole it from him? - How's that for a plot twist? - That PP's original sin, wasn't!) (pointless thinking again, sorry...)anyway-

Hagrid couldn't openly apparate and it would have been traumatic for baby Harry.

He could have taken the long way around.

There were a lot of parties along the way too - but I don't suppose that had anything to do with him taking so long...



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Mrs Brisbee - Sep 7, 2005 2:53 am (#115 of 594)

There were a lot of parties along the way too - but I don't suppose that had anything to do with him taking so long... --Dame Peverall

Lol! Now there is a plausible reason for Hagrid's lateness that I haven't heard before!

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Elanor - Sep 7, 2005 6:08 am (#116 of 594)
Edited Sep 7, 2005 7:09 am

Dame Peverell: "It is important to note that none of the above affects the theory that Hagrid used a Portkey or Fawkes to get to the Potters; nor that DD and the Potters were using 2 way mirrors to communicate. "

Reading your post suddenly reminded me of Fawkes delivering messages at 12 GP in OotP: he wasn't stopped by the Fidelius Charm, which means the Secret Keeper can reveal the secret to animals too or, more interesting, that the Charm doesn't work on them. Anyway, I've always wondered if the Potters and DD didn't use Fawkes to communicate at that time. What do you think?

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Steve Newton - Sep 7, 2005 6:36 am (#117 of 594)

Maddest, all of the OOTP could go to Grimmauld Place because they were told the secret by the keeper. Only the secret keeper can tell you where the place is and have you be able to find it.

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Verity - Sep 7, 2005 7:54 am (#118 of 594)

Elanor -- your idea that the Fidelius Charm might not work on animals is an interesting one. Does that mean that if Nagini somehow learns the whereabouts of the OOTP, she can then tell Voldemort? I don't know how Nagini could find out in the first place, but it's still a really good point.

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Mattew Bates - Sep 7, 2005 1:39 pm (#119 of 594)
Edited Sep 7, 2005 2:39 pm

Dame Peverell, you have stated in post 106 that

The book says that the only people who knew the Secret were Peter, Sirius, James and Lily.

Could you please cite your source? I just don't remember anything specifying who knew.

Also, in post 111, you state some skepticism about the Lexicon's speculation about Hagrid & Harry's missing 24 hours. I share some of that skepticism. I had always assumed that Minerva had simply caught Hagrid coming out of the castle, asked him where he was off to or where she might find Dumbledore, and he clues her in (in pure Hagrid "I shouln't a told ya that" fashion).

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Dame Peverell - Sep 7, 2005 9:34 pm (#120 of 594)
Edited Sep 7, 2005 10:53 pm

Harry's Big Rescue and "Who Knew"

I just spent three hours and eight paragraphs explaining this and Word "had" to shut down. (grrr)

I got the last two paragraphs on a screen shot but I am, well..., in bit of a twist. Pardon me please if I am terse.

a) This all started out when I was trying to figure out how Hagrid knew he needed to rescue Harry, and how he got there, on post #80 and continued on #81, 85, 93, 100 and especially #104, etc..

The books say only James, Lily, (Harry?) Sirius and Peter (and of course, Lord Voldemort) "Knew the Secret"(PA, Ch. #10, 19 & 21) Maybe a better way to put it is: The book only says James, etc., but, as there are 2 inferences and one assumption involved, that is inaccurate. Or is it the reverse?...I'm too tired now too. Anyway, I'll just recap a bit from those posts and leave it for you to make sense of:

b) Lupin said he didn't "Know the Secret" when they were in the Shrieking Shack. Remember, they thought he might be the spy. And a villager can't see the Potters house.(PoA19)

c) Sirius says that they switched to Peter "at the last moment" and I take that to mean at the moment before they cast the Fidelius Charm and that only James, Lily,(Harry)Sirius and Peter were present because Sirius never mentions anyone else.(Assumption)

d) At the Three Broomsticks, (PA10) Hagrid says "I didn' know he'd been Lily and James' Secret-Keeper" referring to Sirius. What this really says (inference) is that Hagrid didn't know who the Secret-Keeper was. He never learned the secret but there he was to rescue Harry the same day it happened. (this is incongruent and is addressed separately, later)

e) In the Hospital wing, Professor Dumbledore tells Harry that "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters’ Secret Keeper" (inference) because he knew that was the plan. He then goes on to tell Harry that he now believes Sirius's story about Peter becoming the actual Secret Keeper "but has no power to make other men see the truth".(PA21)

Mattew Bates- I will finish answering in the next post.

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Mattew Bates - Sep 8, 2005 10:09 am (#121 of 594)

Thank you, Dame Peverell. I'll wait until you've finished to interject my ideas.

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Verbina - Sep 8, 2005 11:05 am (#122 of 594)

Hmmm much to ponder.

We have found out for certain that patroni (patronuses?) can be used to relay messages. So is it entirely possible for James to have sent off his patronus (whatever it might have been) to get someone? It would be a quick way of sending the information.

I for some reason think Sirius knew about where the house was and perhaps he is the one that James sent his patronus to. (Assuming James had one of course.) It does make me wonder though...if someone has a secret keeper for the location of the house, does that also prevent the person living there from sharing the information as to where the house is? So in the case of the Potters, would it prevent James and Lily from telling someone like Dumbledore where it was?

Okay, I think my ideas would be best explained if I laid out the possible scenario. We know that at some time before the death of James, he had contact with Dumbledore as Dumbledore had the invisibility cloak and said James had given it to him shortly before he died. James, before his death, sends out his patronus to someone to alert them to what had happened. He could have sent it to Sirius, his best friend, or to Dumbledore. Sirius did arrive on the scene early on so he somehow knew of what had happened. Hagrid arrived after Sirius. It is possible for Dumbledore to have told Hagrid to go to the village and look for something unusual. When the house blew up, the spell was broken and it was fully visible to all.

As to the 24 hours...I do believe that there is missing time there. Hagrid leaves with the baby Harry on the evening of October 31st and arrives at Privet Drive the next night. 24 hours not accounted for. But I would think that since Harry was injured i.e. the scar, he had to be treated and made sure he was all right. So it would make sense that Harry at a hospital or somewhere he could get care for that time period. During that time period, Dumbledore searches out all avenues of what to do with Harry and decides on the Dursleys. He alerts Hagrid as to where to meet him and when.

Does that add up to anyone else?

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Soul Search - Sep 8, 2005 12:49 pm (#123 of 594)
Edited Sep 8, 2005 2:16 pm

Good thought on the scar as an "injury." I had never thought of it that way, but of course, it was. I checked, and the narration says "cut," then Dumbledore says "scar."

Where would Hagrid take Harry? My first thought would be the safety of Hogwarts. And the safety of Dumbledore. Dumbledore knew of Harry's importance (prophecy) and would want to check him out. (He didn't know that Voldemort hadn't already fulfilled the prophecy.)

On the other hand, the wizarding world found out about Voldemort and Harry in rather a hurry. Maybe Hagrid took Harry to the Hogs Head to celebrate! That's where he met McGonnagall; she was in there getting plastered on meade.

After reading the previous paragraph, a question comes to mind: how did the wizarding world find out about Voldemort and Harry fast enough to have organized celebrations that McGonnagall could note before she got to #4 Privet Drive.

Who all knew enough to start celebrating?

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The giant squid - Sep 8, 2005 1:36 pm (#124 of 594)

Well, if we go with the "Hagrid took Harry for medical treatment" idea, he could have gone to St. Mungo’s. While there, he let slip who the child was and what had happened ("I should na have said that..."), word spread and the celebration began.

--Mike

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Dame Peverell - Sep 8, 2005 3:26 pm (#125 of 594)
Edited Sep 8, 2005 4:32 pm

Harry's Big Rescue and "Who Knew" Part 2,pg 1

After the attack Hagrid and Harry leave on Sirius’s flying motorbike but the unanswered question remains, how did Hagrid arrive there? He didn’t “Know the Secret” so even if he remembered where James & Lily were, he couldn’t find them. He cannot openly do magic to get there. That leaves out Apparition. It is possible he flew there on a Hippogriff, Broomstick or a Thestral but there was a lot of ground to cover in nearly no time flat so I rule those options out. I think he would have HAD to have taken a Portkey. So Mattew, while I like the idea of him telling Professor McGonagall he was to meet DD at #4 Privet Drive with Harry, on his way out of the castle, I think it’s unlikely because it was midnight-ish when he set out and still night when he arrived.

As I said, I think Hagrid must have arrived via a Portkey from Professor Dumbledore’s office. The Portkey may have been set up before the Fidelius Charm was performed. James could have made two of them, transported to DD’s office and returned, leaving one behind sometime in the week before the attack. We don’t have any prior indication, however, that James knew how to Charm a Portkey. We also don’t know if using a Portkey to enter a Fidelius Charmed house can be accomplished by someone who does not “Know the Secret” but I think this must be the Loophole that must exist in order for Hagrid to have gotten there so fast that night.

Maybe DD had invented the Patronus Communication Network before this time but I have the recollection that it's a recent innovation. In any case, there was no time for James to communicate at all. He was dead faster than Cedric was. I think Lily & James had one of Sirius’s excellent 2 Way Mirrors and that DD had the other. I think Lily grabbed up the mirror to call for help. When Lord Voldemort came up behind her, she turned, and when LV attacked Harry, jumped between them and got blasted. ”My curse was deflected by the woman’s foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself”(GF33) Perhaps deflected and reflected both, if she was holding the mirror.

The runaway AK spell certainly did a lot. It killed Lily, robbed LV of his powers and body, ruined the house, transferred powers ripped from LV to Harry and gave him the scar. His mother’s protection, achieved by her sacrifice, enters Harry's blood.
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Dame Peverell - Sep 8, 2005 3:57 pm (#126 of 594)
Edited Sep 8, 2005 5:01 pm

Harry's Big Rescue and "Who Knew" Part 2, pg 2

This also explains why no “ghost” spell appeared between Lily and Bertha in The Goblet of Fire. The spell that was supposed to kill Harry was missing. It seems obvious to me, all of a sudden, that the spell that killed Lily was the same one intended for Harry and which ultimately ripped LV from his body and damaged the house. LV would have spared Lily, but she jumped between them.(GF33)

To do an AK, you have to really mean it. LV didn’t really mean to kill her and so may have lost some split-second focus too. Throwing herself between them was her sacrifice. She may have been trying to talk to DD via a small mirror when LV came up on her. This mirror could be what physically reflected part of his curse. Harry ended up with a scar and LV’s powers because LV had focused his intention or power on Harry and it was then “ripped from his body”. Harry ended up with his mother’s protection because she died in his stead.

I think DD either saw the attack on Lily, or its aftermath when he got back to the mirror from wherever he had gone off to.

Only the “Secret Keeper” can tell the secret. Peter Pettigrew didn’t tell DD the secret and I bet that had DD’s suspicions aroused. It sounds like DD had arranged for Sirius to check on Peter at his hiding place the very night of the attack.(PA19)

It makes the most sense to me that Hagrid rescued Harry and was safely away before reaching in his pocket and sending off an Owl to Hogwarts. “James & Lily have died but I’ve got Harry and will meet DD, as planned, at #4 Privet Drive” I don’t think Hagrid talked to DD at all that day because he told Sirius at the scene that he was taking Harry to his aunt and uncle.

We pretty much have to assume that Hagrid knew better than to fly that motorcycle over a city in the daytime so it’s completely reasonable for him to stop along the way for a variety of reasons, parties notwithstanding. And so the rumor spreads. There is no mention of him being invisible. Is it true, as I recall, that someone on the forum said that London was between Godric’s Hollow and Little Whinging?

Right at the beginning, when Voldemort tried to kill Harry, how did Voldemort and Harry both survive? JK Rowling Interview dated March 4, 2004 replies -> That is the crucial and central question and if I answered it there would be hardly any point writing books six and seven... so I won't! (The "crucial and central question" of the series is how both Harry and Voldemort survived the killing curse)

Since we now know about Horcruxes, we know how LV survived. That Lily threw herself between them (GF33) is how Harry survived.

I guess one could say that we have answered “the crucial and central question” now.

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wynnleaf - Sep 9, 2005 5:32 am (#127 of 594)
Edited Sep 9, 2005 6:33 am

Dame Peverell,

Your theory has a lot of interesting points and possibilities. I think there's a major piece that doesn't work with what we know.

According to what JKR has said, LV did offer Lily the chance to live. Since he offered her the chance, that means she didn't just leap into the "line of fire" of the AK and get killed with the same AK that was meant for Harry. If that had occurred, there'd be no point at which LV gives her the choice. Further, as JKR makes clear, it wasn't just a charging into danger, defensive instinct. It was deliberate. That's why James was brave, but Lily's was a clear choice.

So that would mean that the AK that killed Lily was one AK, and then another AK was directed to Harry, which then rebounded.

I like all of the ideas I've read for how Hagrid may have got to the house, and how DD knew what occurred. A mirror could be as good an idea as the others, such as a portrait. But I think further suppositions, on top of the supposition of the mirror, get further and further into theories without much evidence. So the idea of Lily holding a mirror that receives an AK curse which then bounces around -- no I don't think so. Anyway, the reason the curse hits LV isn't chance ricochet, but the old magic thing of Harry's mother dying for him.

On another note, I have a big question which must surely have been debated in the past, but I can't find it. What destroyed the house??

We all know the usual effects of an AK. This AK rebounded and hit LV. But why would the house have been destroyed? And if the house was destroyed, or in "ruins," why didn't the destruction of the house (not the AK) injure Harry?

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Steve Newton - Sep 9, 2005 6:01 am (#128 of 594)

We do learn in OOTP that AKs that miss can start fires. Remember Eric's desk at the end of the battle. Perhaps someone missed with an AK. James perhaps.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 9, 2005 6:27 am (#129 of 594)

Yes, he offered her the chance to live. He wasn't trying to kill her when he did.

Since he offered her the chance, that means she didn't just leap into the "line of fire" of the AK and get killed with the same AK that was meant for Harry.

He was trying to get at Harry. And she did leap in between them.

“You all know that on the night I lost my powers and my body, I tried to kill him. His mother died in the attempt to save him…(GF33)”

She died in the attempt to save him.

“My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself.(GF33)”

Her sacrifice occurred when she sacrificed herself by throwing herself between them.

I suggest the mirror’s presence for communications purposes. That she was holding it at the time is a good guess and would explain how the one AK spell killed two people and did so much collateral damage.

We have no evidence that James cast any spells, or that he had the time to.

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wynnleaf - Sep 9, 2005 7:24 am (#130 of 594)

My understanding was that the scenes at Godric's Hollow in the movie version of the 1st book were considered "canon" because JKR actually wrote the scenes herself. If that's the case, from what I recall of the movie scene, Lily is AK'd and LV goes toward Harry who is still in his crib, without a scar, and LV is still quite alive. So the AK at Harry comes afterward. The images of Lily don't show a mirror around, although such a mirror (or portrait) could be elsewhere in the room or house of course.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 9, 2005 8:21 am (#131 of 594)
Edited Sep 9, 2005 9:22 am

Very good point, Wynnleaf.

To what extent did JKR influence the movie? We don't really know. The director could (I'd guess most likely) have planned something that looked very different from the story as we know it and she brought him back to a level of "reality" she thought sufficient. This is why movie pollution is so annoying.

When in doubt you have to "go by the book"

To me, the words as spoken in the books can be taken at face value and as facts to support this scenario. The "extra" proof, if you will, is the way the spells come out of the wand in the Graveyard.

I think that it's obvious, on the whole, to all of us that the movies and the books are continually in conflict with one another. If all you did was read the books, you would have one trail of (clues and)events. If all you did was see the movies, you would have one trail, but a different trail of events. That she re wrote that scene was probably to make the movies in accordance with their own, less detailed depiction of events.

Boy, I hope the next person to post knows how to insert some smileys because it is taking me forever to get the decorations up.

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wynnleaf - Sep 9, 2005 1:31 pm (#132 of 594)
Edited Sep 9, 2005 2:33 pm

I still can’t find the original reference. However, here’s the basic information on why the movie scene of LV in Godric’s Hollow is generally considered “canon.”

Director Chris Columbus said in early October 2001 that there would be an extra scene in the movie that wasn't in the book. However, it was not a movie embellishment, but a piece that JKR had originally written for the book and left out. She wrote the material and it was placed it into the script.

“"It's in the first film because she originally wrote it for the first book and decided to take it out. So you’ll see that when you see the film," Columbus told Empire. It is "one little sequence where we get a key into something that happened in Harry’s past."

I asked on the “Was it Snape at Godric’s Hollow” thread if anyone could find the reference and Madam Pince is going to look for it.

From what I remember reading several years back, it was a lot more than just giving Columbus an old unused chapter of the book and him re-in visioning it. As I understood it at the time, JKR actually oversaw the script of this particular scene very carefully to make sure it was right. After all, she knew that she was holding the Godric's Hollow events as a mystery until the very end. She didn't want too much revealed or false things "revealed," etc. She also needed the scene to be able to work with a 7th movie someday and she wasn't going to tell Columbus exactly what was really going to be revealed in book 7.

So that's, more or less, why that one scene -- and only that one scene in any of the films -- is often considered by HP fans to be "canon." Of course, anyone can question that and assume, as you are, that JKR really wasn't concerned with the exact details of the scene. In which case, a fan can imagine whatever set of events desired, as long it follows the books.

That she re wrote that scene was probably to make the movies in accordance with their own, less detailed depiction of events.

I don't think she'd do this with a scene where she's going to keep details secret all the way until Book 7. Because if Book 7 radically conflicts, or even partly conflicts, with the film scene, it's going to be difficult to do a Movie #7 that has good continuity with the earlier film. And I think JKR does care that the movies accurately reflect the books, especially in a scene that she obviously considers extremely important, or she wouldn't hold it secret until Book 7.

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Verbina - Sep 9, 2005 6:23 pm (#133 of 594)

Upon reading Dame Peverell's interesting thoughts...I must say, that there is a very good chance that there was some kind of communication between Dumbledore and the Potters. How exactly though I cannot hazard even a guess. Mirrors, portraits, the use of a patronus to relay information...impossible to nail down to one really.

I also am not sure about Lily throwing herself in front of Harry, being hit by the AK meant for Harry. I got the feeling that Voldemort killed James, then went in the house to get Harry. Lily attempted to protect Harry and Voldemort tried to get her to move. She refused and he killed her then turned to Harry. For some reason that is how I always thought it was.

Another question I am wondering about though is how did Sirius know to go to Godric's Hollow if Peter was the secret keeper?

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Dame Peverell - Sep 10, 2005 4:28 am (#134 of 594)
Edited Sep 10, 2005 5:46 am

Fawkes probably brought Hagrid...

JKR has made corrections and authorized re-prints of the books with events as depicted. She fixed the order in which James & Lily came out of the wand. Why wouldn't she fix how many spells were cast? Is she able to fix the movie once it has been released??? No.

…“I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you.”…DD,OP37 Not like James died, defending his family, but because she sacrificed herself. It’s simple.

…“Voldemort tried to kill you when you were a child…he set out to kill you…the curse intended to kill you backfired…DD,OP37 It is the curses that backfire or go wrong that ruin houses and do funny things. I’ll remind you again that there is absolutely no mention of a spell coming from James.

Are you suggesting that JKR require her readers to see the movies to understand what happens in the books? Are we then expected to wait until the release of Movie #7 before we "understand?" That would be nonsensical.

In the books there are 3 descriptions of the events with the last one being the eye-witness account of Lord Voldemort in GF. He doesn't say he killed Lily and then tried to kill Harry. It says Lily sacrificed herself (willfully)to save Harry. How easy would it have been for JKR to interject further clarification there? How easy to add a bubble or a scar-shaped, ghostly symbol to the wand scene? We have to go by what she does say. It isn't there because the story, carefully worded, is correct as is. I say she gave us all the clarification we need right there in LV's words.

How many dozens of movies have you seen that fit my reasoning about the movie having to be true only to itself? LOTR comes to mind. It closely follows the story and is a masterpiece unto itself but they built up Arwen’s role and took out tons of material, including what happened to Saruman and the Shire, and never looked back. That's just how it is in the movies.

She has revealed these clues gradually.

  • When CS came out we learned Fawkes could transport people (and I think it more likely now that Fawkes brought Hagrid to Godric's Hollow rather than a Portkey)
  • When OP came out we learned about the 2 way mirrors and that Fawkes can transport through a Fidelius Charm.
  • When HBP came out we learned about Horcruxes. Undoubtedly some final part of the mystery will be revealed in #7, such as the presence of the mirror or that it was Fawkes who healed Harry's scar, but the essence of the story at Godric's Hollow has gone unchanged for years now.


You must ask yourself: “What self-respecting author would write a children’s book series whose plot depended upon the inclusion of a scene from one of seven movies?” How does that speak to future readers of 10 or 20 years from now? What kid will pull that book off the shelf if he knows “he won’t get it” unless he watches some old movie.

The books must be able to stand alone.

I think it has been a “fatal flaw” to consider that movie scene as canon as it applies to the books. It was never meant to alter what the books actually say in any way. The books should have reflected a change, were it important to the their story line, by the time GF came out. I think we should, by now, trust GF’s somewhat clarified version of events.

The inclusion of that movie scene as canon has blinded us and muddied the waters so thoroughly with speculation that we can hardly see the truth anymore. (Snape in Godric's Hollow? More likely Peter Pettigrew, if anyone.) Peter, at least, knew where to find LV's wand afterwards, and he "Knew the Secret" - and that is canon.

The quote I used earlier about JKR (who chose this particular question of many to answer) saying “This is the crucial and central question" is her way of telling us to go back and look again. IMHO it is obvious that she was trying to point us towards it and I chose to follow her finger.

“I loathe books that have inconsistencies and leave questions unanswered. Loopholes bug the h**l out of me ... so I try to be meticulous and make sure that everything operates according to laws, however odd, so that everyone understands exactly how and why.” [JKR, the Sydney Morning Herald, 2001]

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Dame Peverell - Sep 10, 2005 5:44 am (#135 of 594)
Edited Sep 10, 2005 6:53 am

Verbena -

The pair of two-way mirrors was used extensively by James and Sirius while at school. I would rate it "highly probable" that they would employ them again. I also think DD would have had the other one since Sirius was supposed to be on the run and DD could respond in an emergency more quickly.

Portraits may have been used instead, I can't rule them out. Since the only portraits that we know of in DD's office are of Headmasters, there would have had to be a Headmasters portrait at the Potter's and that doesn't seem very likely.

I don't believe they were using the Patronus Communication Network in those days and James didn't have time to conjure one before he was killed, in all likelihood, anyway.

That Lily blocked the AK intended for Harry with her body is how I interpret the words JKR used to describe the events. Verbatim. It is also proven by the spells which came out of LV's wand in the graveyard.

Sirius "Knew the Secret" He was present when the Fidelius Charm was cast.

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wynnleaf - Sep 10, 2005 8:05 am (#136 of 594)
Edited Sep 10, 2005 9:09 am

Are you suggesting that JKR require her readers to see the movies to understand what happens in the books? Are we then expected to wait until the release of Movie #7 before we understand?" That would be nonsensical."

In fact, what I wrote was not nonsensical at all.

Nor did I say that we'd have to wait until the 7th movie to see what happened.

What I said is that JKR is obviously waiting until Book 7 in order to reveal the full extent of what really happened at Godric's Hollow. That is clearly obvious -- isnt' it??

Since Book 7 will reveal all of what really happened, Movie 7 -- obviously to be filmed following Book 7 -- will have to follow the book. Since this must be a very important scene -- otherwise why be so mysterious about it -- there won't be any room for the movie to do something radically different from the book in order to preserve continuity with Movie 1 as well as with the books. This was certainly why JKR was so concerned about this particular scene. The scene had to preserve continuity so that subsequent movies could make sense, and still relate to the books.

JKR did a lot of advising and consulting to get the important parts of the movie (from her perspective of the plots yet to be revealed) correct. I cannot believe this scene which she spent great personal care with, was allowed to proceed in a way that would directly conflict with Book 7's revelations. It is not like the films are divorced from what JKR is doing after all. She didn't just sign a contract and let the filmmakers to whatever.

None of this is nonsensical.

JKR is a person separate from the books she writes -- but they are after all her creations and she's spent years perfecting the details. It makes perfect sense to look at things she has said and done outside of the text of the books -- but regarding the plots, the characters, etc. in order to decipher what's going on.

Even in the books themselves, we are told Harry got the scar when LV tried to kill him. But we know from other uses of the AK in the books that the AK either kills a person, or rebounds off of objects. It doesn't kill one person, go through them, and hit another person. The scar, after all, came from somewhere! The only way to get it is if the AK reached Harry.

Immediately after whatever was the final AK that LV did, he was practically dead -- though not "properly" Smile -- and no longer capable of inflicting a scar on Harry. So the final AK at Godric's Hollow must have been directed straight at Harry.

Further, all of what we've been told about Lily's protection was that her death created very old magic that protected Harry -- not that her physical body protected Harry, although she would have hoped for that before she died. It's because it's the old magic that protected Harry that he was still able to have that protection years later (such as in SS when Quirrell/LV can't touch him). It was her giving her life attempting to save Harry that protected him -- not her body in front of him. After she was dead, LV didn't know that Harry now had this protection (remember DD saying that LV didn't understand this kind of magic). Therefore when LV did the AK that rebounded on him, he aimed it directly at Harry who just received a scar.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 10, 2005 9:23 am (#137 of 594)
Edited Sep 10, 2005 10:47 am

Wynnleaf - My use of the term "nonsensical" was not directed at you personally. I apologize to everyone in general for sounding bent, but I assure you I'm trying to be better. I sound even more terse normally.

What I refer to as nonsensical is the notion that the movies would ever be considered to supplant facts as presented in her written works. At the time, we were grasping for clues because the picture was so murky. At the time, it seemed like a reasonable idea. So very many mysteries remained that could not be explained about that night. We have moved beyond that now.

Movie 7 will only have to follow movies 1-6.

We don't know what the scene looked like before she sat down with it. I am sure she improved it greatly for continuity. But the movie must, of necessity, skip a great many of the details that we spot in the books.

I tried to explain before about the scar. We know Harry acquired some of Lord Voldemort’s powers. I theorize that it was these powers that left the scar when LV's spirit and powers left his body. Please read it through again because I know I didn't write it very well.

No matter what, there are inescapable facts that point to the conclusion I have drawn. The big proof about the AK's is that there were only the two, the one that killed James and the one that killed Lily and LV, and that one backfired because of Lily's sacrifice. Her sacrifice. We are told about her sacrifice over and over. The final spell was aimed at Harry. She died protecting her child with her body and her life. The old magic came about because of her sacrifice.
THERE WERE NO MORE SPELLS AFTER LILY DIED UNTIL BERTHA JORKINS


Now, wouldn't you like to sit and have a nice Cherry soda with some ice and an umbrella with me? We can laugh about pounding our heads over it for so long, together.

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Verbina - Sep 10, 2005 10:34 am (#138 of 594) Reply
Edited by Sep 10, 2005 11:38 am<P>

Dame Peverell - You raise very interesting points. Forgive me as I have not yet figured out italisizing quotes on here yet. I will merely place what you said in quotes.

That Lily blocked the AK intended for Harry with her body is how I interpret the words JKR used to describe the events. Verbatim. It is also proven by the spells which came out of LV's wand in the graveyard.

It could be a failing memory on my part as I do not have the book handy as reference but in the conversations concerning the events of that night at Godric's Hollow, everything seems to say that James and Lily were both killed by LV before he turned his attention to Harry. It was the unwillingness of Lily to hand over Harry that caused her death and set the protection of Harry in place.

True in the graveyard, there was no sign of the spell used on Harry coming from the wand but we seriously cannot gauge the reactions of a wand to an UNSUCCESSFUL spell. What we saw come from the wand were successful spells. Harry, as far as anyone knows, was the victim of an unsuccessful one. Would a wand show anything at all in the case of an unsuccessful spell? We simply cannot say.

The communication options... "The pair of two way mirrors was used extensively by James and Sirius while at school. I would rate it "highly probable" that they would employ them again."

I agree that it is very probable that it was used that night. However..."I also think DD would have had the other one since Sirius was supposed to be on the run and DD could respond in an emergency more quickly."

This I have to disagree with. Sirius was not on the run at this time. Peter had not yet framed Sirius for his "death". Sirius did however arrive at the scene at Godric's Hollow before Hagrid. I am thinking it was more likely that the mirror was used between Sirius and James that night, thus explaining why Sirius was there so soon after the events happened.

Since the only portraits that we know of in DD's office are of Headmasters, there would have had to be a Headmasters portrait at the Potter's and that doesn't seem very likely.

I agree with this as well. The likelihood of them having a headmaster portrait is slim unless Dumbledore gave them one. Plus there is no guarantee that the message would arrive in a timely fashion in the case of an emergency as the recipient of the news must be near the other portrait.

I don't believe they were using the Patronus Communication Network in those days and James didn't have time to conjure one before he was killed, in all likelihood, anyway.

This is where I disagree. We have seen the patronus used as a form of communication twice...once in OotP and once in HBP. Both times it was used by Order members and we know that James and Lily were members as well. We cannot say that they did not use that form of communication because we haven't seen it until recently. Until OotP, we didn't know about the Order either. Of course, we would have to assume that James and Lily had patronus's but it seems evident from the fact that when Harry was teaching the DA the spell and most of the students had one, it would be a safe guess that James and Lily also had patronus'.

Also, when we have seen the patronus used for communication, it was done very quickly and the patronus moved extremely fast. While a patronus can be intercepted, it is seems more reliable for emergency use than using a portrait or even the floo network. All these things seem to point out that a patronus communication would be ideal in the case of an emergency.

As to the explosion that destroyed the house, I have thought about this and I can't help but wonder if it were the emotions in use. The AK takes intense hatred to be successful. The protection of Harry came from love. Hatred and love being opposites could have an explosive result. Very like the reaction of anti-matter and matter coming in contact with each other...opposites creating and explosive result.

On a side note...anyone know the plural of Patronus?

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Detail Seeker - Sep 10, 2005 12:23 pm (#139 of 594)

Patroni

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Soul Search - Sep 10, 2005 2:34 pm (#140 of 594)

There has been a bit of discussion on who was at Godric's Hollow that fateful night. I realized that I was, for reasoning unknown, trying to keep the numbers small. Why? There might have been a horde. Realizing this, some of the "problems" we have cited acquire new possible solutions.

Okay. James, Lily, and Harry were there. And Voldemort. Voldemort would have insisted Wormtail come along, even if Wormtail could have just told Voldemort the secret. If Wormtail had been wrong, Voldemort would have been immediately harsh with him.

We saw in the GoF graveyard scene that Voldemort liked to have an audience to impress so he could really show off. Why not at Godric's Hollow? The Potters had defied him three times. Their son was prophesied to defeat the dark lord. Why not have a large audience of death eaters to witness the deaths of the troublesome Potters.

So, Godric's Hollow is full of death eaters. Snape is there; he was, then, a death eater. It was he who informed Dumbledore what happened, because Voldemort killed Lily, when he had promised not to (I still have trouble with this, but Dumbledore says so.)

House destroyed. Bellatrix would have destroyed the house just out of spite. Frustrated death eaters probably took turns blasting it.

Voldemort's body. Death eaters took it with them.

Voldemort's wand, Wormtail recovered it and hid it away.

Why else would so many of Voldemort's death eaters believed him gone for good? They saw it happen.

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Choices - Sep 10, 2005 5:27 pm (#141 of 594)

Since the only portraits that we know of in DD's office are of Headmasters, there would have had to be a Headmasters portrait at the Potter's and that doesn't seem very likely.

Sirius' had a former headmaster in his family, so who's to say that James didn't have one as well? It is possible that James was from a pure blood family - possibly a descendant of Godric Gryffindor - so why wouldn't it be likely to have a former headmaster's portrait in their home?

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haymoni - Sep 10, 2005 7:00 pm (#142 of 594)

I wonder if only spells that work show up when brother wands duel.

i.e. - Voldy's AK for Harry didn't work, so it doesn't show up.

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Choices - Sep 11, 2005 7:57 am (#143 of 594)
Edited Sep 11, 2005 8:58 am

haymoni, that is what I have always thought. Only spells (AK's) that successfully killed would appear from the wand. Failed spells would not count, and thus would not appear.

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Soul Search - Sep 11, 2005 8:38 am (#144 of 594)

But, Voldemort's AK at Harry did work; it killed Voldemort's body.

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Detail Seeker - Sep 11, 2005 9:34 am (#145 of 594)

Soul Search, I do not believe in the "A Group of Death Eaters were around" theory. While the showing off would be a typical trait of Lord Voldemort - there I agree with you - , the torturing of the Longbottoms does point against a larger audience. The DEs would have known, that Voldemort had become Vapourmort and could have taken appropriate measures. But they did not and some saw the necessity to ask the Longbottoms in their subtle way with the results known to us.

Wormtail having been there makes sense. Snape is questionable. I do not see the evidence for it.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 11, 2005 10:55 am (#146 of 594)
Edited Sep 11, 2005 11:57 am

“True in the graveyard, there was no sign of the spell used on Harry coming from the wand but we seriously cannot gauge the reactions of a wand to an UNSUCCESSFUL spell.”

There is no canon whatsoever regarding the appearance of a successful vs. an unsuccessful spell and so is not logically, but only speculatively, considered a relevant factor. Go by the book. The book says the record of spells is in the wand. Furthermore, the wand cast the spell, successful or not.

“Sirius was not on the run at this time.”

Sirius was on the run, and pretty much in hiding too because everyone thought he was the “Secret Keeper” which he knew made him a marked man. If the Death Eaters had found him they would have tortured him.

“…we would have to assume that James and Lily had patroness’s…” - “…patronus communication would be ideal in the case of an emergency.”

We know James had a Patronus. There is no mention of Lily having one anywhere.

I think there is a chance that they used a Patronus to communicate although I can’t give it a high probability. We have never, if I recall correctly, seen someone conjure a Patronus and then turn and perform other spells while the patronus was active. Clearly, James was very busy immediately before he died. I reason that the emergency was too great for its use; but as I say, it’s a possibility. I have this notion that I read somewhere that the first Order of the Phoenix (James' timeframe) didn’t yet know about, or have the ability to use Patroni(?) as a means of communication, but I don’t recall the source. Luckily, the theory doesn’t hinge on this, as there are other ways they could have alerted Dumbledore.

“As to the explosion that destroyed the house, I have thought about this and I can't help but wonder if it were the emotions in use….”

Love and hatred are explosive but runaway or ricocheting magic spells are more so.

“Voldemort would have insisted Wormtail come along”

Conjecture. Probably true, but unproven. Wormtail could, possibly, have been out on the street keeping a lookout. I think, guess, extrapolate, whatever - that he was around.

“So, Godric's Hollow is full of death eaters.”

There isn’t the slightest bit of canon for any of these people being there which makes it total supposition. We do have this bit, however, which suggests that just the opposite is true:

“ Sirius to Peter: “His lot aren’t very happy with you, are they?…You haven’t been hiding from me for twelve years, you’ve been hiding from Voldemort’s old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban, Peter…They all think you’re dead, or you’d have to answer to them…I’ve heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep.. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters on your information…and Voldemort met his downfall there. And not all Voldemort’s supporters ended up in Azkaban, did they? There are still plenty out here, biding their time, pretending they’ve seen the error of their ways…If they ever got wind that you are still alive, Peter---” (PA19) “

Had there been any Death Eaters in Godric’s Hollow, they surely would have known that LV blew himself to bits and that there wasn’t any double-cross going on. Furthermore, if Peter had had corroborating testimony from another DE at the scene, he could have hid out with the DE’s for the next twelve years.

“Snape is there; he was, then, a death eater. It was he who informed Dumbledore what happened, because Voldemort killed Lily, when he had promised not to (I still have trouble with this, but Dumbledore says so.)”

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here. Snape went over to the DD side the week before the attack, as I recall. Do you think Snape was there and told DD what had happened? Because LV had made some promise to him? Where exactly is it that “Dumbledore says so”?

“They saw it happen.” Not.

“James was from a pure blood family - possibly a descendant of Godric Gryffindor” JKR has confirmed that Harry is not a descendant of GG and so James wasn’t either.

Detail Seeker - Thank you for reminding me/us about the Longbottoms having been tortured to reveal information about LV’s disappearance.

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irish flutterby - Sep 11, 2005 3:16 pm (#147 of 594)

If I may be frank for a moment. My intention is not to offend; however, DD has made me aware that "accidental rudeness" is a frequent occurrence. I hope this is not the case here.

Anyways, Dame Peverell, you continually knock down others' theories as pure conjecture, not canon and therefore not possible. That may not be your intent, but that is the way your posts seem to me, and possibly others. (again, accidental!) At this point, pretty much EVERYTHING that doesn't come straight from the books is pure conjecture, so any theories you, I , or anyone else might have with regard to how DD, Hagrid, and Sirius found out is, in fact, guesswork. Mirrors, pictures, patroni, Fawkes, whether LV went for Harry while Lily was dead or alive...they are all speculation because we don't have JKR's word on any of it. I find it fascinating that so many people have so many other ideas and theories that differ. All are possibilities. Some more likely than other, granted. But I think it would help facilitate a more creative and cooperative atmosphere for solving these riddles if we can try to avoid dismissing each other's ideas with totality.

All that said, I think some of you theories are very interesting. Thanks for sharing them with us, and please continue to share more. I have a lingering question that I'm sure I've asked a dozen times before, but my dense skull is having trouble allowing the concept to pass through to my brain. Here goes. Sirius knew the location of #12 before DD was made the Secret Keeper. As that is the case, could he have found #12 after the Fidelius Charm was performed even though DD never told him the address? If that is the case then...If Hagrid visited the Potters' home before the Fidelius Charm, after the spell was cast, he would still be able to find their home. Also, DD, Sirius, and anyone else who might have known their location before the charm, could still find it. It keeps the keeper from revealing the location to anyone who DOESN'T ALREADY KNOW IT. That would solve the question of how Hagrid and Sirius found it.

Love and hatred are explosive but runaway or ricocheting magic spells are more so.

I think JKR would disagree. I think that's the point of the books. The power of those two emotions, and that Love is the greater.

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Choices - Sep 11, 2005 4:01 pm (#148 of 594)
Edited Sep 11, 2005 5:05 pm

Flutterby (you go girl!!), I see what you are saying, but I don't think anyone who previously knew where a house was, could still find it after the Fidelius Charm was put on it. If that were the case, then surely Bellatrix would be able to find #12 Grimmauld Place. The Blacks were her aunt and uncle and cousins and surely she visited them there as a child - or at least knew the location of the house. I am just guessing, but I think the charm would wipe the memory from her mind if she attempted to find the house.

Dame P - "There is no canon whatsoever regarding the appearance of a successful vs. an unsuccessful spell and so is not logically, but only speculatively, considered a relevant factor. Go by the book. The book says the record of spells is in the wand. Furthermore, the wand cast the spell, successful or not."

..... but explain then why Harry or Voldemort did not come out of the wand? I say it is because neither of them was properly killed, but then what do I know? I'm obviously not the HP expert, you are, but that's my opinion.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 11, 2005 5:42 pm (#149 of 594)

I doubt that Voldemort would have gone unaccompanied to face the Potters at Godric's Hollow because, given the nature of the portion of the prophecy that was reported to Voldemort, it seems unlikely that he went to the village alone. I believe it is more likely that he dismissed the other DE's finding that there were no other allies of Dumbledore watching over the house in Godric's Hollow.

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Soul Search - Sep 12, 2005 6:25 am (#150 of 594)
Edited Sep 12, 2005 7:31 am

The more I think about the "horde" at Godric's Hollow, the more I like it. There is indirect cannon that Voldemort would not have gone there alone. Let's push the concept a bit further.

Dumbledore heard the prophecy and recognized Harry's importance. He advised the Potters to go into hiding and volunteered to be their "secret keeper." Is that all he did? Of course not.

In GoF, Voldmeort tells Harry that he has been well-protected. We think he only means at #4, but there's more to it. Voldemort is more familiar with Harry's protections before Godric's Hollow. After all, Vapormort spent most of Harry's time at #4 in Albania.

After the prophecy, Dumbledore arranged for protections on the Potters house and had members or the Order watching 24/7. He had to; Harry was important! And only Dumbledore knew how much.

So, there were members of the Order at Godric's Hollow that night, and they called more. There was a fight going on outside when Voldemort got in and killed James and Lily.

“Stand aside, you silly girl ... stand aside, now ...”

This has always bothered me. Voldemort expending an effort to not kill someone who stood in his way. Voldemort not wanting to kill Lily. Why not? He doesn't care about anyone. He went to Godric's Hollow to kill. It is out of character, unless he promised someone he wouldn't kill Lily.

By the way, Dame Peverell, don't be put off. I post to get comments! I want to hear where my ideas have gone astray. Please continue to criticize. If I don't agree with you, I will post back. That is why this is a "forum," after all.

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irish flutterby - Sep 12, 2005 6:34 am (#151 of 594)

His urgency in wanting Lily to move may have also been due to the number of people fighting. If there was a load of Order Members outside there, he may have been anxious because he didn't want to risk getting caught. That's probably why, in a rush, he just figured he would kill Lily, get her out of the way and then kill Harry. I guess that would be considered a major error in judgment. In his haste, he got himself vaporized.

Question, though. If there was a huge battle going on, Muggle's would have seen it. If muggles saw it, the MoM would have gotten involved with Obliviating their memories, repairing damage, etc. Would we not have heard about that from Fudge since he was working in that very department at the time?

If there was a large number of witches and wizards fighting, that could easily explain how news spread so fast, but why wouldn't someone else have grabbed Harry?

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Soul Search - Sep 12, 2005 6:59 am (#152 of 594)
Edited Sep 12, 2005 8:36 am

Detail Seeker -- Regarding the "horde at Godric's Hollow" (of my #140 post and your #145 post.)

I have never understood why Bellatrix and the other death eaters would think the Longbottoms would have any particular knowledge of Voldemort's whereabouts. Yes, they were aurors and, yes, they were in the Order, but why them?

Thanks for bringing it up. The Longbottoms were there, at Godric's Hollow! Bellatrix went after the Longbottoms because she saw (or fought) them at Godric's Hollow and, in her warped mind, thought they might know something of what happened.

None of the death eaters outside saw what happened inside. (My #140 post was mistaken on that point). The death eaters didn't "see" what happened. They had to leave in a hurry and only knew that their lord and master didn't return. Actually, this makes more sense.

The Longbottoms didn't know anything either, but Bellatrix was distraught and wouldn't believe them.

Another thought.

The "big fight going on" helps explain how Dumbledore knew about events at Godric's Hollow and could have sent Hagrid. But maybe, Hagrid was already there. He was in the Order and may have responded to the call to arms.

Hagrid finds Harry alive, tells Dumbledore (means unknown) and Dumbledore responds telling Hagrid to bring Harry to him.

We know that Sirius went first to Wormtail's and then to Godric's Hollow. But, we don't know when he got there. He could have gotten to Godric's Hollow in time to join the fight.

AND, (this is good) someone who was in "the big fight" and still lives in Godric's Hollow will tell Harry all this when he goes to Godric's Hollow. Harry will probably learn all this as he is, tearfully, at his parent's graves.

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Choices - Sep 12, 2005 9:02 am (#153 of 594)

If, as has been suggested, JKR carefully orchestrated that scene at Godric's Hollow for the movie, why does it show Voldemort (?) carefully walking up to the Potter's house - not running, no scenes of fighting going on, no spells flying hither, thither and yon? If there was a battle going on outside I think it would have been evident in that scene. I just don't buy the idea of a fight happening outside while Voldemort is inside killing James and Lily. There is certainly no evidence of it in the book either. It's an interesting idea and could possibly explain some things, but I'm not sold on it. I think there are other explanations for what happened that night that we will learn in book 7.

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Verbina - Sep 13, 2005 7:20 am (#154 of 594)

The thing about Voldemort telling Lily to move aside...I agree there is a chance that he told someone he would not kill her. But I thought of two other possibilities...1) he wanted to keep Lily alive to discover her magic. I am guessing (and I stress guessing) that Lily was an extremely talented witch in an area that Voldemort could not understand. DD says that (pertaining to someone finding a horcurx of Voldemort's) that Voldemort would want to find out how they did it before killing them. So it is possible that Voldemort, who thought himself the most powerful wizard in the world, would want to find out how Lily, a Mudblood, could understand and use magic in a way that he could not comprehend.

The other possibility is that Voldemort at that time was so set in his mind to destroy Harry, that a "mudblood" like Lily was of no consequence to him at that moment. He was so focused on getting rid of Harry that when he had Harry in his sight, he wanted to kill him and told Lily to move. Voldemort would have known (or I should say he should have known) that a woman willing to go into to hiding for a year to protect her family, would not step aside. Of course, no one can say that they fully understand Voldemort's thinking.

As to the Longbottoms and their torture in relation to the events that night...they could have been there but that would mean that a great deal of people got past the Secret of the location. A bit dodgy in my mind at this moment. For some reason I had the impression that few of the Death Eaters knew for certain where Voldemort went. They knew it had something to do with the Potters and the secret location of their house. So when the Potters were dead and Harry was missing and Voldemort was apparently gone to no one knew where, some Death Eaters may have thought that Voldemort had been taken away in secret by other Order members. Bellatrix singled out the Longbottoms...perhaps because they had defied Voldemort just as much as the Potters had.

And lastly, back to my idea of the house blowing up because of the high emotions of hatred and love in the area... Voldemort hated the Potters, thus his search for them and his desire to kill them as well as Harry. I mean a burning intense hatred. Meanwhile, Lily and James loved Harry, as only a parent can, with total and complete love. We know from the Dept. Of Mysteries that love is extremely powerful (the door they could not open) Intense hatred and pure love would be very explosive magically I am guessing.

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Soul Search - Sep 13, 2005 9:22 am (#155 of 594)

In PoA, the Three Broomsticks scene Harry overhears, Flitwick describes the Fidelius charm in fair detail.

Flitwick says "You-know-who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window." To press a nose against a window, one must be able to see the house.

My read has been that, unlike #12 Grimald Place, the charm was performed on the Potters, not their dwelling.

Thus, any number of death eaters and Order members could have gone to the location. But note, that Voldemort went inside, killed James (he could see him now), talked to and killed Lily, and tried to kill Harry. The negative can't quite be proved, but no other death eaters were inside fighting James and Lily, because Wormtail hadn't passed the secret to them, so even though anyone could see the house, they couldn't see the Potters.

That might be why Harry was still there; none of the death eaters could see him. They destroyed the house, hoping to kill him, but it didn't work.

How did Hagrid see Harry? Either he knew the secret before getting there (makes sense since he was sent to retrieve Harry), or Sirius passed the secret to him.

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Mattew Bates - Sep 13, 2005 1:53 pm (#156 of 594)
Edited Sep 13, 2005 2:57 pm

Soul Search – if the Fidelus was performed on the Potters and not their house, then wouldn't they be invisible and/or unknowable to anyone not in on the secret? Would people's memories of them be fogged, as we suspect Bellatrix and Narcissa's memories of 12GP are? Would people even be able to speak their names? Severus can't say 12GP to Bella and Cissy. Why, then, would they even need to stay in hiding? Plus, we only have canon evidence that the Fidelus can be performed on a place. It makes more sense to me that the charm was performed on their house, and they stayed in hiding there.

As far as the Longbottoms being at the Potter Place to protect the Potters – please do not forget that, prior to Voldemort marking Harry, the prophecy could have pointed to Neville. There has been much speculation – justified, in my eyes – that they were in hiding just like the Potters.

Dame Peverell – I think the chapters you cited back in posts 120, 125, and 126 give us the start of who knew about the Potters' secret hiding place and who didn't, but are not necessarily the final word. We can be certain that James, Lily, Peter knew, and relatively sure that Sirius did, too. We can be just as certain that Lupin did not know. But I do not feel there is enough evidence in the texts to illuminate whether that short “in the know” list is the final word. While we can be sure that Hagrid did not know who the secret keeper was, that is not the same thing as not knowing the secret. Ever since we learned in OotP that the Secret Keeper could use an unsigned note to pass the protected information, the question of “Who Knew?” devolves quickly into pure speculation. I believe that Dumbledore sent Hagrid to the Potter House to retrieve Harry specifically because he did know the secret. The Potters could have passed Hagrid an unsigned note from Peter. The same goes for Dumbledore - except he testified that Sirius was the Secret Keeper, so Sirius may have shown him a Peter-prepared-note. As I said, all speculation, but not disprovable.

Furthermore, I am not even certain that the Fidelus Charm on the Potter residence is still intact. While I believe it might be, I can recall no Canon proof. It may be that a Secret Keeper can dissolve a Fidelus, and that one of the reasons people knew so quickly that the secret had been betrayed was because the memory of the Potter house came rushing back into their heads.

Now, I am not saying that any of your speculation is wrong. I could certainly be off base with any of my ideas. I think there's currently enough wiggle room in Canon for any number of theories to fit the current set of facts. I'm still in the single digits on re-reads, and I still find things that I've missed every time through. I'm with Soul Search - I would like to know if any of my ideas can be disproved, so I don't continue under false assumptions.

edit: Not that I really disproved any of SS's ideas - I just voiced my concerns about them.

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Madam Pince - Sep 13, 2005 5:26 pm (#157 of 594) Reply
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 13, 2005 8:09 pm<P>

wynnleaf, I finally got around to researching your question about the canon evidence from the first movie. It's posted in my Post #357 on the "Was It Snape At Godric's Hollow That Night?" thread - because I think that's where you asked it of me initially. I won't re-post here -- if anyone's interested that's where it is! Sorry it took so long....

I added the link to Madam Pince's post on the ”Was It Snape At Godric's Hollow That Night?” – Kip

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Verbina - Sep 13, 2005 8:45 pm (#158 of 594)

This fidelius charm is giving me as many headaches as the whole horcrux things has been!

From what we know for certain about Fidelius Charms specifically #12 Grimmauld Place ...

1) There can only be one Secret Keeper

2) The information can be passed on through notes, making it so that a third party and relate the information without being the Secret Keeper.

3) The charm would essentially make the home invisible to anyone that does not know the secret.

4) After the destruction of the house at Godric's Hollow, muggles were then aware of the house.

So...Peter was the Secret Keeper. Lupin did not know Peter was the Secret Keeper. Neither did Dumbledore. In fact, anyone that knew of the situation thought that Sirius was the Secret Keeper. Sirius did know of the location of the house, at least that night, as he was there when Hagrid arrived. Hagrid was sent by Dumbledore and so obviously Dumbledore knew the location as well. That means like you said Mattew Bates, that Dumbledore was given the information somehow without the Secret Keeper being revealed. If it was a piece of paper, then he would have to have kept the paper to show it to Hagrid. The paper could have been given to him by Peter or Sirius or the Potters themselves. James we know had contact with Dumbledore before his death (the note Dumbledore left with the invisibility cloak for Harry) so it would seem likely that James was the one to give the information to Dumbledore.

I would say we need to figure out how the charm works really. I say this because it seems that the charm was broken when the house was destroyed. If it were on the Potter's, one would think that the charm would be on Harry as well, not just Lily and James. So the charm would still be in effect on Harry as he is still among the living. Since people can see Harry quite well, it would seem that the charm had to have been on the house itself. I am unable at this time to look it up but...when Harry first went to #12 Grimmauld Place, what did he see? Anything? I ask because I am wondering if it would be something along the lines of the spells on Hogwarts keeping muggles away. The house could have looked like something else completely due to the charm.

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Soul Search - Sep 14, 2005 5:21 am (#159 of 594)
Edited Sep 14, 2005 6:27 am

Good comments. I ran out of posts so here's some catching up.

Longbottoms at Godric's Hollow -- Once Dumbledore heard the prophecy and knew Snape told Voldemort, he directed both Harry's and Neville's families to go into hiding. The Potters, all, went to Godric's Hollow but the Longbottoms gave Neville to his grandmother, and continued their work as aurors and members of the Order. (The death eaters found the Longbottoms, so they weren't protected by the secret.)

Voldemort and his death eaters were looking for both boys, and attacked Harry first only because Wormtail revealed the secret of his concealment.

So, the Longbottoms were still active as aurors and members of the Order, and could have been at Godric's Hollow.

Snape and Timing -- We know Snape was a death eater when he went to the Hogs Head for a job interview. He heard the prophecy, got caught and thrown out. Doesn't sound like he got the job then. He tells Voldemort about the prophecy. Sometime later he goes to Dumbledore and switches sides. Do we have any canon that places Snape switching sides relative to Godric's Hollow? Was it before or after? Or do we not know for sure?

I am thinking after, but can't support it.

T Brightwater has come up with a great analysis about Snape. Worth considering, and could affect this discussion. (Snape thread, Sept., 13, 2005, post #2861.)

Fidelius Charm on House or Potters -- Either choice creates similar problems. Especially, afterwards, how did anyone see the house or Harry. How is the charm ended?

If the charm was on the Potters, how could they function if they couldn't be seen?

If the charm was on the house how could it be guarded without too many in on the secret?

We are already having trouble reconciling who knew the secret and who knew the secret keeper. Seems unlikely that James would abandon Lupin or Dumbledore, yet they may not have been in on the secret, since they didn't know Wormtail was the secret keeper. Seems unlikely. It seems both Lupin and Dumbledore know more about the events at Godric's Hollow than current storyline would justify.

Dumbledore particularly. He wasn't there, yet seems to know details. Did he collect peoples' memories in the pensive? In jars for Harry to see? If so, there were more people there than we now know about.

If Snape was there, he had to know the secret. He had to get it from Wormtail, which suggests Wormtail told more than Voldemort.

Big Fight at Godric's Hollow -- I still like the idea, since it helps make sense out of some of the puzzles we have had, but I am having trouble finding even a canon hint that would support it. I thought that reviewing "opportunities" where there could have been a reference that would have been overlooked if not looking specifically for it. I came up pretty empty, but here is where I looked.

SS scene, Hagrid delivers Harry. Only the "house destroyed" reference.

PoA, dementor induced visions. Nothing.

GoF, graveyard scene. Nothing except "protected," which could fit.

OotP, Moody photograph. I thought some of the dead may have been at Godric's Hollow, but nothing.

HBP, Dumbledore discussions. Nothing.

So, unless I can find some useful hint, the theory will have to be abandoned.

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Choices - Sep 14, 2005 8:11 am (#160 of 594)

I have to disagree on the Longbottom's giving Neville to his grandmother. I think Neville was right there with his parents and saw them tortured and was then placed under a memory charm by the torturers so he would not remember them or what he saw them do to his parents. Hopefully all this will be revealed in book 7.

If the charm was on the house how could it be guarded without too many in on the secret?..........That's just it, I don't believe it was guarded by anything or anybody other than the charm. That should have been enough had the Secret Keeper been loyal and honest.

How is the charm ended?.........I believe it is ended when the ones the charm is designed to protect no longer need the protection (dead).

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Mattew Bates - Sep 14, 2005 10:59 am (#161 of 594)
Edited Sep 14, 2005 12:00 pm

Verbinia - as I recall, 12GP didn't look like anything - before reading the note, Harry saw the houses on either side right up against each other.

Soul Search - I hadn't thought about Neville being left with his Gran. I still have my doubts that both parents would leave him at any given time with him in so much danger, but that certainly opens the possibility for it.

Choices - The Longbottoms were tortured a good deal of time after the Godric's Hollow event. Harry's first trip into the pensieve (GoF) covered that. Also, if the first fidelius charm was on people, then that charm must be broken in some other way, because Harry would have been covered by it, and he is certainly visible and alive. Yet more circumstantial evidence leading to either a nullified fidelius, a charmed property, or both.

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Steve Newton - Sep 14, 2005 11:15 am (#162 of 594)

Choices, I don't see how Neville could have been there when his parents were tortured. If he had been they would have tortured him to make them talk. Of course, maybe that is the way it happened. They broke because they had to watch Neville being tortured. It might also explain why he is so clumsy.

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Choices - Sep 14, 2005 12:03 pm (#163 of 594)
Edited Sep 14, 2005 1:05 pm

That is definitely a possibility Steve. I have just always figured he was there because otherwise why would a memory charm be necessary? We have gotten more than a few hints that his memory is bad and the hints seem to point to a memory charm. If he didn't see the torture and who did it, then what did he see that required the memory charm? Something is going on with Neville and I hope we find out the details in book 7. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree with this idea, or maybe I'm just barking.....LOL.

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irish flutterby - Sep 14, 2005 12:09 pm (#164 of 594)

...or barking mad, but I doubt it. I agree. Something's up with Neville also.

I also think we should change the subject. Okay, maybe not the subject, but the emphasis. I think all of our brains are numb from the enigma of the Fidelius Charm, so can we talk about what we expect Harry to find from his visit to Godric's Hollow.

Also, what might be the significance of the name. We know Harry isn't a descendant of Godric Gryffindor, but what other options are there?

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Choices - Sep 14, 2005 12:34 pm (#165 of 594)
Edited Sep 14, 2005 1:35 pm

I am still amazed that Harry is not a descendant of Godric Gryffindor. So much evidence pointed to it, but evidently it was just to throw us off. We have seen the heir of Slytherin and Hepzibah Smith indicated that she is a descendant of Helga Hufflepuff, so where are the descendants of Gryffindor and Ravenclaw? Surely there are some of them around....so who are they? I hope we find out. Godric's Hollow has to be connected with Gryffindor...... but how?

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Mattew Bates - Sep 14, 2005 1:11 pm (#166 of 594)

Choices, I think Harry is Gryffindor's heir - in every way but in blood. He is the son of a Head Boy & Girl from the house, he has pulled GG's sword from his hat... I think the evidence is there to emphasize that not everything important flows along bloodlines. I think there will be other things to emphasize this point when we visit Godric's Hollow.

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irish flutterby - Sep 14, 2005 1:48 pm (#167 of 594)
Edited Sep 14, 2005 2:51 pm

Agreed, sort of. DD says that "only a true Gryffindor" could have pulled Gryffindor's sword out of the (Gryffindor's) sorting hat.

On the other hand, this is from the Mugglenet/TLC interview.

Anelli, Melissa and Emerson Spartz. "The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Three," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005

MA: “What about Harry's family — his grandparents — were they killed?”

JKR: “No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them.”

MA: “That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor [theories], as well.”

JKR: [Pause.] “Yeah. Well - yeah.”

She sort of sounds like she's shooting down any chance of a blood relation, but it also sounds like she almost wanted to say something else, but stopped herself.

She never out right said that he wasn't. She let Melissa think that that is what she was saying. I don't think she'd intentionally mislead us, but I also think she needs to keep some things lower key or secret till Book 7.

I think in some way he is the heir of Gryffindor, but we all know that heir doesn't necessarily mean he hasn't inherited certain things from Godric.

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Soul Search - Sep 14, 2005 2:39 pm (#168 of 594)

irish flutterby -- We know Harry isn't a descendant of Godric Gryffindor

Do we? I think we know that Harry isn't "the heir of Gryffindor," but he could still be a descendant. In fact, there are probably a lot of descendants of Gryffindor.

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irish flutterby - Sep 14, 2005 3:19 pm (#169 of 594)

Thanks for correcting me! You're right, of course. I also think, as I said in my last post, Harry may not be the literal heir of Gryffindor, but he has definitely inherited certain qualities from Godric. Whether by genetics or just his nature remains to be seen.

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Soul Search - Sep 14, 2005 7:25 pm (#170 of 594)

Actually, we may find out that Harry is a bit more than just a descendant.

Dumbledore suggests that Voldemort also intended to create his sixth horcrux with Harry's murder. It had been perhaps as long as thirty years since he created the fifth one. He must have been looking for just the right horcrux "trophy" object.

What he found was Gryffindor's sword, at the Potters, in Godric's Hollow, where he was going to murder Harry.

I know, Dumbledore said the sword wasn't a horcrux. But, how long has Dumbledore had the sword? Since Godric's Hollow night. Dumbledore collected (was brought) the sword, just like James' cloak. Harry pulled the sword out of the hat in CoS because it was rightfully his.

Voldemort intended to use the sword for a horcrux, but never got to complete the required magic.

So, Harry inherits Gryffindor's sword that has been in the Potter family for many generations!

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Verbina - Sep 15, 2005 8:48 pm (#171 of 594)

Since wizarding families have been intermarrying for centuries...it is very possible that somewhere along the way, Harry is a descendant of Godric. It just seems so odd for the Potter's to hide out in a village with the same name.

Also, Godric was a "progressive" wizard, wanting anyone with magical ability included in the school, muggle or wizard. That said, it would make sense that were he to marry, he may very well have married a muggle, strengthening his forward thinking. Plus we also know that occasionally Squibs happen in the wizarding world and I would bet that it happens even to the most pure of families. Hagrid also pointed out that there are very few if any totally pure blood families around. It would explain the sudden appearance of magical ability in a muggle family like Lily's. And she was also a most excellent witch by all accounts.

So Harry could still be an "heir of Gryffindor" from either James' family or Lily's...or even both for that matter.

As to the "heir" issue...Slytherin's heir was through bloodline but that actually makes sense coming from a man that felt the purity of the blood was the important thing. Godric, however, felt it was ability that was more important. So it is possible that the defining thing of a Gryffindor heir has nothing to do with bloodlines but has everything to do with ability. Perhaps there is one thing that is considered a Gryffindor trait magically wise, like Parseltongue was for Slytherin. That being the defining characteristic of the heir.

Hmmmmm last bit sounds a little like what some of you were already saying....never mind.

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Choices - Sep 16, 2005 4:56 pm (#172 of 594)

Harry has some connection to Godric Gryffindor - if not by blood, then by mentality.

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Verbina - Sep 17, 2005 2:46 pm (#173 of 594)

Boy, was I out of it when I posted that! Up too late or something. Anyway, yes, it could be the mentality that makes a person an heir.

I guess I am going with the thinking I picked up from a different book series. In that series, magical abilities were passed down in family blood lines but through intermarriage the power that the family was known for (the family power) became harder to find. So it was possible for someone to be an heir to a household with the special power. If the power appeared in the family of a lesser relative, that person was dubbed the heir based on ability alone. The same could for the heir of the founders. *shrugs* At least it makes one think differently about the meaning of "heir".

Like I said, Salazar was so focused on pureblood, that bloodline would be the big heir thing for him. But Godric was not so focused so it is very possible that he was more focused on attitude and behavior than on blood or ability.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am (#174 of 594)
Edited Sep 19, 2005 10:38 am

I originally raised this point in the Long Theory on Harry's Family thread. Is it possible that the house in Godric's Hollow where the Potters stayed actually belonged to Dumbledore?

Also, further on the same line of thought, is it possible that given what happened to James and Lily there he decided to leave the house what was left of it as a memorial not only James and Lily but, to their sacrifice as well and permanently relocated to Hogwarts? In essence, the grounds of the house at Godric's Hollow became hallowed ground because of the sacrifice of James and Lily. Much in the same way that battlefields become hallowed ground because of the sacrifice of soldiers.

”We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of it as a final resting place for those who died here that the nation might live. This we may, in all propriety do. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have hallowed it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here.”

The quotation above is a portion of The Gettysburg Address given by Abraham Lincoln 19 November 1863

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JILL HUBER - Sep 26, 2005 8:53 am (#175 of 594)

I had a revelation last week! I was re-reading the OOP and I read something when they were cleaning out Grimmauld Place that I haven't seen on any thread...I am really excited about it, at least until someone tells me someone has already mentioned it! Okay, everybody talks about the locket they find when they are cleaning out the glass display cupboards, but there was an item of intrinsically useful value that we seemed to have overlooked for clues for horcruxes and other things in the last book. There is a book in there about Wizarding Families through the Ages or something. That would surely mention the family lines of the Weasleys, Dumbledores, Malfoys, Blacks, Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs, Ravenclaws, Slytherins, Potters, Longbottoms and any other family we have questions about.

So I know that there has been much speculation about who is related to whom, so why Hermione didn't remember it when she was trying to find out who the Half-Blood Prince is, is beyond me! I think someone will stumble across it in book 7. Any thoughts, feelings?
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wynnleaf - Sep 26, 2005 9:49 am (#176 of 594)

Jill,

I'll have to go back and read about that. I'd completely forgotten about it. And you're right, if it's a book about wizarding families, then it could be useful in many areas. And if that's been discussed before, I don't recall it.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 2, 2005 8:49 pm (#177 of 594)
Edited Oct 2, 2005 9:58 pm

Soul Search - Sep 14, 2005 8:25 pm Actually, we may find out that Harry is a bit more than just a descendant. Dumbledore suggests that Voldemort also intended to create his sixth horcrux with Harry's murder. It had been perhaps as long as thirty years since he created the fifth one. He must have been looking for just the right horcrux "trophy" object. What he found was Gryffindor's sword, at the Potters, in Godric's Hollow, where he was going to murder Harry. I know, Dumbledore said the sword wasn't a horcrux. But, how long has Dumbledore had the sword? Since Godric's Hollow night. Dumbledore collected (was brought) the sword, just like James' cloak. Harry pulled the sword out of the hat in CoS because it was rightfully his. Voldemort intended to use the sword for a horcrux, but never got to complete the required magic. So, Harry inherits Gryffindor's sword that has been in the Potter family for many generations!

Okay, I may just have missed but I do not recall ever reading that Voldemort found Godric Gryffindor's sword at Godric's Hollow. Are you being metaphoric? or is this a theory on a thread? It adds a dimension to think that Voldemort went to Godric's Hallow not only to kill Harry, but also the get the object to host his next horcrux. The idea that Harry is GG's descendent not by blood, but by character and act, is excellent and well in keeping with JK's "choices".

Also I recall that Dumbledore said in his Christmas note to Harry in CoS when he gave him the invisibility cloak, "your father left this with me before he died." I was not under the impression that Hagrid fetched it when he went to get Harry.

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Honour - Oct 2, 2005 11:24 pm (#178 of 594)

Hi there Mrs Sirius, I too wondered about that note and like you I initially thought it was written by DD as well... But as I progressed through the series I started to wonder, if indeed it was DD who wrote that note then I can think of a couple of scenarios that might place it with him:

1. DD saw James prior to the Potters going into hiding, although why DD would need an invisibility cloak when he can do this without one is beyond me...

2. Or, that DD did go to Godric's Hollow spoke to James prior to the attack by Voldermort, was given the cloak?

3. Or, James went to Hogwarts to see DD, had to leave in a hurry and left his cloak, (maybe Snape gave DD the heads-up about Peter and Voldermort at this point and James had to get out of the grounds fast, so he could apparate back to Godric's Hollow?)

But DD having the cloak in his possession always bugged me ... and it still does. If you have canon on how it came into DD's possession please steer me to it, I've completely missed it ....

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irish flutterby - Oct 3, 2005 6:12 am (#179 of 594)

I don't think we've ever been given any indication as to how DD ended up with the cloak.

Mrs. Sirius, yes the Gryffindor sword theory has been batted around a bit. It has many incarnations, but generally goes something like this:

DD (or James, though JKR steers us away from that in saying that Harry isn't the heir of Gryffindor) is actually a descendant. The house James and Lily were staying at may be DD family house, and, therefore, have Gryffindor relics in it. Including the sword. LV was desperate to use an object from each of the founders. If the Potters were staying in DD's house (or even near it), LV could get the sword, kill Harry and make his final Horcrux with the boy who was to defeat him and the sword of the one who opposed Slytherin.

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Choices - Oct 3, 2005 7:53 am (#180 of 594)

I have always imagined that Dumbledore met with James and Lily to tell them of the need to go into hiding - perhaps it occurred at a meeting of the Order - and James gave the cloak to Dumbledore saying if anything happens to me please see that Harry gets this cloak.

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Verbina - Oct 3, 2005 8:00 pm (#181 of 594)

But going into hiding like that...I would think that James would find a need for the cloak.

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Honour - Oct 4, 2005 4:06 am (#182 of 594)

Exactly Verbina ... exactly ...

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Choices - Oct 4, 2005 8:13 am (#183 of 594)

Maybe since he was in hiding, James just stayed in the house at Godric's Hollow. That was the place where the charm was in force, so that was where James, Lily and Harry felt/were safe. If they did not venture out of the house, then he didn't really need the invisibility cloak.

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Verbina - Oct 4, 2005 8:48 pm (#184 of 594)

So if he didn't go anywhere, then Dumbledore had to have gone to him.

But the note said the cloak was "left" which seems to imply that James had come to him...

How's this for a scenario...James goes in secret, using the invisibility cloak to see Dumbledore for a meeting. James has an alternative way to return to Godric's Hollow so leaves the cloak with Dumbledore either for Harry if anything were to happen or for Dumbeldore to use. Dumbledore, having heard the prophecy, may not have been in immediate danger but he was definitely on LV's "to kill" list.

Is that plausible?

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Honour - Oct 5, 2005 1:47 am (#185 of 594)

I ask again, why would DD need the cloak when he can become invisible at will?

Why did James leave Lily and Harry defenseless? Why would DD allow them to be left defenseless?

I can't find anywhere to support the theory that It was DD who wrote the note and left the cloak with Harry. It would have made more sense for James to have left the cloak with Lily and Harry, if they had to use it, it would give them at the very least an advantage, and Lily could have apparated with her son under the cloak and no one would have been the wiser ... (Yes yes I know there have been theories that apparating would be an uncomfortable experience for a child, but when you are desperate as Lily eventually was, you'd do anything to save your baby)

If James had purposely left the cloak with DD for Harry in the future, then he knew his death would be imminent and if that was so, then why didn't he make better arrangements for Lily and Harry, surely he must have known that he would be their last line of defense? and something about this defeatist attitude doesn't quite sound like James, so like I said previously ... something is not quite right here ...

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Soul Search - Oct 5, 2005 5:25 am (#186 of 594)

I thought it was more like Dumbledore was executor for the Potter estate. He must have given Hagrid the key to the Potter vault. He also gave Harry the cloak, but wrote "left it with me" just to simplify things and not get a bunch of questions from Harry.

I think the sword was also part of the Potter estate.

When Harry turns seventeen, he comes of age and will get the remainder of his inheritance. Wonder what else will be there?

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Ana Cis - Oct 5, 2005 5:55 am (#187 of 594)

Soul Search, I have the same impression about Dumbledore being executor of the Potter estate; just as he was probably the executor of Sirius' estate. I also agree that he didn't want to get into too many details about the events surrounding the murder of Harry's parents. It fits with his explanation in Book 5 about protecting Harry from the pain and burden he would have to deal with in the future. After all, Harry had almost died when saving the Sorcerer Stone.


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Choices - Oct 5, 2005 8:26 am (#188 of 594)
Edited Oct 5, 2005 9:34 am

Picture this scenario - Dumbledore, knowing about the prophecy and feeling the Potters are in danger, goes to their house (not Godric's Hollow house) and tells them he believes them to be in grave danger. He tells them about the prophecy and tells them to be one the safe side, they should get their estate/affairs in order. He also tells them to go to a house (possibly that he owns) in Godric's Hollow to hide and that a charm will be placed on the house to keep them safe. He suggests they select a secret keeper - someone they trust. Before Dumbledore leaves, James gets the invisibility cloak and gives it to Dumbledore, telling him to see that Harry gets it if anything happens to them. He also tells Dumbledore about their vault at Gringotts and gives him the key to keep for Harry. They immediately go to Godric's Hollow and remain in the house until they are betrayed and killed by Voldemort. Dumbledore keeps the cloak (and the vault key) until Harry turns 11 and then he gives it to Harry after he arrives at Hogwarts.

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wynnleaf - Oct 5, 2005 6:05 pm (#189 of 594)

You know a problem with this is that all 3 Potters were in hiding together and LV's target was Harry. If LV got James and Lily, one would normally assume Harry would be killed, too, if he was anywhere around, since he's the one LV was mainly after. So this idea that James might say, "if I'm killed, give this to Harry," doesn't exactly add up. If James was killed, chances were (barring the unforseen ancient magic) Harry would be dead, too.

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haymoni - Oct 5, 2005 7:23 pm (#190 of 594)

Is it possible that the cloak was taken long ago, perhaps when James was a student?

Dumbledore is witty enough to say "James left this in my possession." when he really means that he had to confiscate it.

We know James had the cloak at school because Lupin mentions it.

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Ana Cis - Oct 6, 2005 4:30 am (#191 of 594) Reply
Edited by Oct 6, 2005 5:31 am<P>

Excellent point, haymoni.

I didn't think of it considering what DD says afterwards, that James used it for sneaking off to the kitchens to steal food. He probably used it for doing more mischief than just getting food from the house elves.

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Choices - Oct 6, 2005 9:07 am (#192 of 594)

wynnleaf - "If LV got James and Lily, one would normally assume Harry would be killed, too"

We know that James and Harry were both marked for death, but that Voldemort was willing to spare Lily for some unknown reason. All I can figure is that James hoped that Harry might escape death and so left the cloak for him just in case. Either that, or James knew about the plan to put some sort of protection around Harry by Dumbledore and/or Lily and simply had faith that it would work to keep Harry alive. No matter what, I think James hoped that Harry would survive, but as a good parent he had to plan for the possibility that something might happen to him and/or Lily and wanted to leave something for Harry.

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Verbina - Oct 6, 2005 9:54 am (#193 of 594)

I agree that James had to have a plan in place but I have agree with what wynnleaf said. Everyone was so shocked that Harry was still alive, thus his fame in the wizarding world.

I had forgotten about the key...another piece to the puzzle.

I have been thinking about one thing though...the events of Peter framing Sirius with his faked death...when did that take place? I got the feeling it was shortly after the deaths of James and Lily but not the next day. I only ask because the day after the attack at Godric's Hollow, Harry was taken by Hagrid to Dumbledore at Privet Drive. During that time period, is it possible that some things were salvaged from the Godric's Hollow house at that time? Things like the key? It really doesn't say that the house burned up or anything. It says it was in ruins but not burned up. I hesitate to say the cloak was there because of the wording of the note Dumbledore wrote.

Things I need to ponder.

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 6, 2005 2:37 pm (#194 of 594)

I figured that James had loaned the cloak to Dumbledore for other members of the Order to use. James was going into hiding, and he probably thought someone on the front lines might need it. Sort of like Moody letting those on guard duty use his cloak, but since James couldn't be there himself he left it in Dumbledore's charge.

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greta - Oct 11, 2005 6:34 am (#195 of 594)
Edited Oct 11, 2005 7:34 am

I think that most of the scenarios that have been outlined regarding how DD had the cloak are all possible - that it was being used by the order (as they are very rare and valuable-not easy to come by I would imagine, otherwise everyone would have one), James and Lily were killed only a week after the charm was placed therefore they probably had every intention of being able to use the cloak should they need to. Also I like Choices’ theory that it was deliberately left with Dd for Harry - yes it may be unlikely that Harry would survive an attack if James and Lily di not, but any parent would cling to the hope that this may happen.

I would also like to say that I completely agree with Matthew Bates post #156, that Dd and Hagrid knew the secret due to an unsigned note from Peter, passed on by James or Sirius, this allows Dd and Hagird to find the Potters and also explains why he still assumed the Secret Keeper was Sirius.

I have always thought (for no concrete reason!) that Hagrid took Harry to Nicholas Flamel’s House in the missing 24 hours. This is simply because it states in PS that Nicholas Flamel lives in Devon, and Hagrid states when he arrives at Privet Drive, that Harry fell asleep over Bristol, travelling from Devon to Surrey it would be quite likely to pass over Bristol. Also Flamel greatly trusts Dd ( he gave him the Philosophers Stone to protect), I assume this trust is mutual. I would also imagine that a 600 year old wizard would have a great deal of magical protection around his home( so as not to atrract too much attention), making it a safe haven for Hagrid and Harry. In addition Flamel, from his description in PS seems to be a very talented wizard, therefore able to give Harry a quick once over after the attack.

Have I have gone completely mad?

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Choices - Oct 11, 2005 8:37 am (#196 of 594)

I like the idea that Hagrid took Harry to Flamel. I had always thought Hagrid took Harry to Madame Pomfrey at Hogwarts and she healed the gash on Harry's forehead, but going to Flamel works too.

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Elanor - Oct 11, 2005 11:05 am (#197 of 594)
Edited Oct 11, 2005 12:06 pm

Greta, I very much like this idea too! I always had the feeling DD was quite close to Flamel: the chocolate frog card says they were "partners" and DD calls him "Nicolas" (without an 'h' after the 'c' in French BTW, it always makes me smile, while reading PS, that JKR thought of the right spelling of his name), though Flamel is far older than he is, which means they must be close, don't you think so?

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haymoni - Oct 11, 2005 11:20 am (#198 of 594)

There is definitely a time gap there.

Hagrid could have taken Harry anywhere!

An' over 'ere is the Forbidden Forest. You know all about the Forbidden Forest, don't cha, 'Arry?

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Honour - Oct 12, 2005 1:19 am (#199 of 594)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 2:21 am

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought that Flamel was a muggle? I always thought JKR had based this character on the story of the alchemyst, Gee I'll have to go back and re-read.

I also thought that Hagrid had taken harry to Madam Pomfrey as well...

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Choices - Oct 12, 2005 9:26 am (#200 of 594)

Whether Flamel was considered a wizard in real life or not, I think for the sake of this story JKR means for us to consider him a peer of Dumbledore, and therefore he is a wizard.

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HR]greta - Oct 12, 2005 11:09 am (#201 of 594)

Well, Muggle or wizard, Flamel was still 600 years old, so I feel he would live in quite a discrete place which would be an advantage for hiding Harry. Also I like this idea because we are told that Hagrid flew over Bristol and that Flamel lives in Devon and the nature if Falmel's and DD relationship (that is that they appear quite close)in the same book (PS) so it isn't a far- fetched connection to make. However it does not explain when Hagrid had the opportunity to tell Prof McGonogall that DD was going to Privet Drive.

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JILL HUBER - Oct 12, 2005 1:59 pm (#202 of 594)

I really like the idea of Harry receiving more information and access to his parents’ things when he turns 17. Is it possible that Dumbledore, foreseeing his absence at that time, left a note or some sort of message regarding the goings-on the night his parents died? I think that would really be interesting. I am convinced that, if Dumbledore is dead, he would not leave behind so many unanswered questions without some means to explain certain things to Harry about the night in question. It seems that Dumbledore is the only one willing who knows what happened to tell Harry. I think Snape may or may not have been there, but I think Dumbledore knows what happened from whomever was there if he, himself, was not there. Dumbledore holds the key to so much information that I think Rowling will find some way of connecting them to talk or find information in book 7.

Man, I want to know what happened that night!!! The interview with Emerson really left me more curious about that night because Rowling is so darn evasive!

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greta - Oct 13, 2005 12:04 pm (#203 of 594)

Jill Huber - I agree that DD knew the precise events of that night at Godric's Hollow- after all he based Harry's future, that is his residency with Aunt Petunia on the basis of his mother’s sacrifice and therefore the safest place for Harry was with his mother’s blood relatives. So DD must have some sort of confirmation of the events to take this course of action,( I am aware that DD also wanted Harry away from the wizarding world so he did not become a "pampered little Prince" but I am sure the main motivation for choosing Petunia was the whole blood sacrifice issue). He could have left a memory behind. Have we come across any other methods of revealing memories that Dd may have utilized - my mind has gone a blank(not unusual!!)

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JILL HUBER - Oct 17, 2005 1:42 pm (#204 of 594)

Well, I think that we need to remember about the scene in either book 5 or 6 where Dumbledore goes looking at several different bottles for a memory in his office. I recall that there were several vials...I think that would be a good place to start.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 26, 2005 9:04 am (#205 of 594)

A few things struck me while reading this thread. First is the idea of the cloak. It seems that once James and Lily went into hiding that they'd give certain things to DD "just in case". And they could easily apparate if need be to secure places like DD's office in Hogwarts or the Order headquarters.

Another thing I've been thinking is why Lily stood in front of Harry, besides the obvious. It seems like after watching her husband die, instead of standing there pleading with Vold, she could have grabbed Harry, ran behind a sofa to dodge a curse and disapparated. We've seen Harry dodge about a million curses.

She knew by throwing herself in front of Harry she'd simply be killed and Harry would either be orphaned or killed.

Did she know about the love bond protection because she was an Unspeakable studying in that mysterious room at MoM? Did Vold know about her exceptional wisdom and talent? JKR said she didn't have to die but chose to. Did he have something else in mind for her that night?

I know this isn't exactly about Godric's Hollow but I'm curious if I'm missing something about what happened that night.

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Esther Rose - Oct 26, 2005 10:22 am (#206 of 594)

All of a sudden I am wondering how Lily bled. It was by Lily's blood that Harry was saved. So, how did she bleed to be able to perform the life- saving charm?

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Choices - Oct 26, 2005 11:00 am (#207 of 594)
Edited Oct 26, 2005 12:02 pm

Me and My Shadow - "And they could easily apparate if need be to secure places like DD's office in Hogwarts or the Order headquarters."

First of all, you can't apparate into or out of Hogwarts. Next, I think you are right about Lily knowing about the protection she could give Harry. It doesn't make sense to me that she would be so willing to die knowing that Voldemort would just kill Harry after he kills her. But, if she knew beforehand that her sacrificial death would protect Harry from Voldemort's Avada Kadavra, then that makes more sense. That makes her loss of life more worthwhile - she wasn't just dying for no good reason. I believe she knew that her death would keep Harry alive.

Esther Rose - "All of a sudden I am wondering how Lily bled. It was by Lily's blood that Harry was saved. So, how did she bleed to be able to perform the life-saving charm?"

That doesn't mean that she actually bled. It was her love that saved Harry - the sacrifice of herself because she loved him so deeply. She did not have to actually spill her blood for the ancient magic to work.

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Esther Rose - Oct 26, 2005 11:06 am (#208 of 594)

Do we know that, Choices, or do we assume that? I have been assuming that blood does not need to be shed for the life- saving charm to work, until the cave incident. It literally took blood to enter the cave. I guess my real question is does the charm literally require blood to perform or not?

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Choices - Oct 26, 2005 11:20 am (#209 of 594)
Edited Oct 26, 2005 12:33 pm

Entering the cave by dabbing blood on the door, and saving Harry's life by Lily's death, are two very different things. Since we are not told anywhere that Lily had to "bleed" to save Harry, then I think it is safe to assume for now that she didn't. Except for Voldemort taking Harry's blood for the rebirthing and then for Dumbledore and Harry to gain entrance to the cave, I don't think we have seen any other instances when blood shedding was necessary for a magical spell or charm to work. The Avada Kadavra leaves no marks or blood on the body (Harry being the exception). If Lily actually bled, then I think Dumbledore or someone would have told Harry that his Mother shed her blood to save him.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 26, 2005 1:19 pm (#210 of 594)

Choices, "First of all you can't Apparate in Hogwarts". My mistake, although DD is in charge of all charms on that castle and grounds. It's not my point. As you might have guessed, my point was James no longer was reliant upon an invisibility cloak, as a student might be. So he could have easily given his cloak to DD and not the other ideas floating around that DD got it from James's grandfather to give to James, etc. etc...

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 28, 2005 2:55 pm (#211 of 594)

Regarding my above post, here's a quote from HBP Birthday Surprises chapter. The apparition teacher says:

“the headmaster has lifted this enchantment purely within the Great Hall for one hour so as to enable you to practice.”

So not to belabor the point, but I think it's, more importantly, relevant to keep in mind for the future, book 7...

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Choices - Oct 28, 2005 5:07 pm (#212 of 594)

I think we have to keep in mind that the students were allowed to apparate within Hogwarts for the period of one hour - one still cannot apparate into or out of Hogwarts.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 29, 2005 12:03 pm (#213 of 594)

Choices: yes, but again, I am making this point in context of my previous post, of Lily and James feasibly apparating into DD's office from Godric's Hollow if DD so chose.

With this in mind, it may be important that the enchantment is not written in stone, therefore it may be useful in book 7 regarding past occurrences and/or future "battles" on school grounds.

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Verbina - Oct 30, 2005 7:20 pm (#214 of 594) Reply
Edited by Oct 30, 2005 8:22 pm<P>

Also interesting, for the sake of argument, that while the rule of no apparating can be altered, it is also under the rule of the headmaster, Dumbledore. So...he could, in theory, lift the ban from apparating into or out of a specific room (like his office) for the period of an hour at the least. Thus making it possible, in theory, for the Potter's to have apparated to see him at some time. Not saying I agree with the theory but...it is according to the quote, possible. Also the power of lifting the ban would seem to be under the power of whoever is the headmaster...so...whoever gets the job will have the ability to lift it. Depending on who that is, it could be a good thing for either Harry and the DA or Voldemort and the Deatheaters.

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Madame Librarian - Nov 1, 2005 3:50 pm (#215 of 594)

But the house elves can apparate from Hogwarts, right? If that's so, then DD could have used elves as go-betweens from him to Godric's Hollow. It might have even been one of them who bore the dreadful news of the attack.

Also, the other side of the theory that the headmaster is the one who controls the apparition spell is that if DD is really gone, does that mean the spell is "locked" in whatever mode it was last set to? Unlikely, I think, that DD would leave a loose end like that given that he was hyper-aware of his own vulnerability. But as the man himself pointed out: when you're as powerful wizard as he was, and you do make a rare mistake, it's a biggie.

Ciao. Barb

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Verbina - Nov 1, 2005 9:26 pm (#216 of 594)

I would think that the ability to lift the ban on apparating is something that has been "passed down" from headmaster to headmaster for centuries. But only the headmaster is allowed to know how to do it.

I never thought of the house elves....I wonder if perhaps the Potters had one?

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 3, 2005 11:29 am (#217 of 594)

I don't think JKR would have mentioned a lifting of apparition ban unless it was important. The students could have practiced the whole time at Hogsmeade.

I agree that the succession of headmasters/mistresses inherit the governing of spells & charms on the castle & grounds. I also agree that elves had & will have a large part to play. I just watched CoS and made a mental note of how Dobby blasts Lucius after being given the sock. And Lucius cowered away.

Regarding Potters having an elf, remember that all the elves in Hogwarts kitchen answer to DD. We are reminded quite often that elves keep their master's secrets unconditionally. So even if Potters didn't have an elf, DD had a hundred at his disposal.

On this same tangent, Harry now has Kreacher and Dobby at his disposal...should be useful.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 5, 2005 2:50 pm (#218 of 594)

Choices - regarding Lily knowing how her death would protect Harry, I think we may be wrong...Here's a quote from JKR --

MA: “Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry?”

JKR: “No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen.”

Pretty clear. Didn't know anything.

I find this strange. Why would Lily do it if he'd be killed anyway? Must be more to it...

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wynnleaf - Nov 5, 2005 3:52 pm (#219 of 594)

Me and my shadow,

I think it's just mother instinct. And I think that's part of what JKR meant when she implied that any mother would do the same. It wouldn't matter that standing in the way of LV would only protect the baby for a brief period. It would still have to be done, because there's no way she could not stand in the way. She had to try, however desperately, to protect her baby including any last-ditch no-real-hope effort.

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Choices - Nov 5, 2005 5:36 pm (#220 of 594)

Yes, there definitely must be more to it. I know personally if I was in that position, I would die trying to kill Voldemort before he could kill me if I knew he would just go ahead and kill my child anyway. I would think my only chance of saving my child would be to try and kill Voldemort first. But, if I knew that my death would protect my child from death, then Voldemort could just go ahead and kill me and I'd do nothing to stop him. I guess that is the only thing that seems logical to me, but if JKR says Lily didn't know, then we have to take her word for it.

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The giant squid - Nov 6, 2005 2:59 am (#221 of 594)

The whole thing is an emotional response, not a logical one. Lily didn't stop to think, "What can I do to stop LV from harming my child?" She just jumped between them and said, "Over my dead body!" When it comes to your child's welfare you don't think, you just do.

I don't even have kids and I've never had a problem with that concept.

--Mike

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Choices - Nov 6, 2005 12:11 pm (#222 of 594)

Well, I guess I figure that Lily thought about it before hand. She had been warned that they were targets of Voldemort and that he was possibly out to kill Harry. If I was Lily, I'd have been asking myself what I would do if it came down to defending my child from Voldemort. I think I'd have had a plan in mind.

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Verbina - Nov 6, 2005 12:14 pm (#223 of 594) Reply
Edited by Nov 6, 2005 12:15 pm<P>

Speaking as a mother of 3, I have to agree with Wynnleaf and The Giant Squid. When a child of yours is in danger, you don't think. You simply act. I have actually had this happen on two occasions. Once when someone twice my size was behaving in a threatening manner towards one of my children and once when one of my children scampered off into the street even after I told them to stay right by me. In both cases, without thinking of the consequences, I leaped in front of the potential danger. I could have been harmed by the threatening person and I could have been run over by the car coming towards my child. But that didn't matter. The instinct to protect overrides all logic.

Actually, it would be very similar to the fight instinct that I think James had going on when he attempted to prevent Voldemort from getting to Lily and Harry in the first place. Futile perhaps but logic goes out the window and adrenaline takes over, causing a person to do things they normally would not or could not do.

And actually, it could happen with anything that a person holds dear. A friend, a loved one, a pet. If the emotional bond is close, then I can see it happening. After all, humans are not always logical creatures.

And that, for anyone who has ever wondered, is why parents turn grey so early in life! LOL

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wynnleaf - Nov 6, 2005 12:27 pm (#224 of 594)

I wanted to add, on top of what Verbina said, that acting on instinct does not mean that Lily didn't act by "choice," also. In other words, LV could tell her to stand aside -- so she had the choice to move out of the way. But because of her instinct to protect her child, she would never have moved out of the way.

Ever wonder where Lily's wand was during all that? Supposedly, JKR worked pretty closely with this scene in the movie. There's no evidence of Lily's wand there in the film scene. And in Harry's memories in the books, we don't get any clue that she had a wand around and was trying any kind of spell against LV.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 6, 2005 12:59 pm (#225 of 594)

Good point about wand, wynnleaf. If she was an unspeakable, perhaps her wand was important to Vold and he "Accio-d" it straight away.

There's got to be a very important reason why Lily was not a target. We know why Harry was, but why James and not her? They both defied him three times so why would she be allowed to live? I still think it's because of what she was studying and her gifts regarding that room in Dept. of Mysteries.

But I agree with Choices, Lily had time to prepare for the day when all this would go down. DD knew she had a choice (HBP Secret Riddle chapter). So he must have mentioned it to her. Why, then didn't she have a plan? Silly girl? Does it have to do with Snape?

EDIT: a thought just occurred to me. Remember how Vold used Marvolo's wand to kill Riddles... what if he wanted to use Lily's wand to kill Harry and alter her memory, placing the blame of his death on her? But since she didn't choose life, he didn't bother. Just a thought...

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Choices - Nov 6, 2005 5:00 pm (#226 of 594)

There has to be something concerning James' family line that made Voldemort want to end it. He sought to kill the "last two Potter's", thus ensuring that no more would be born. Lily was unimportant because without James, she could produce no more Potters. Book 7 will surely tell us what it is about James' family that made Voldemort want to wipe them out. If Harry and Ginny were to marry, would Voldemort seek to kill them before they produce any children?

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 7, 2005 2:06 pm (#227 of 594)

Choices - yes, the Potter line is the obvious answer. However, JKR shoots it down in mugglenet interview.

MA: “What about Harry's family — his grandparents — were they killed?”

JKR: “No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No.”

That's why I figured there's got to be another reason he didn't just kill Lily too.

On a different note, I know I've mentioned the "wandless/Lily's eyes" theory before and you were not receptive to it. But I was on the Harry Potter thread and someone mentioned Quirrel-mort "snapping his fingers" and conjuring the ropes with which to bind Harry.

I wonder if Lily didn't have a wand because she may indeed have been practicing wandless magic. Stupid idea though, if you know Vold might be banging your door down at any moment... I've got to research this a bit more. But the Quirrel-mort canon is very interesting.

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Choices - Nov 7, 2005 6:00 pm (#228 of 594)

Shadow - I know JKR says she got rid of Harry's family because she wanted Harry to be alone in the world, but I don't think that necessarily means that Harry's paternal family line is unimportant. Maybe his grandparents were not important, but maybe farther back in Harry's family is where the important part comes in. If James' father had still been alive, would Voldemort have wanted to kill him also? For some reason Voldemort wanted to wipe out the Potter bloodline - but why? I can't wait to find out.

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Mrs. Sirius - Nov 7, 2005 10:08 pm (#229 of 594)

Could it be something as mundane as Voldemort knew that once he killed Harry he would have to kill all other males in the family, otherwise they'd want to avenge his murder? In some way, that is all that now keeps Harry on Voldemort’s tail, the desire to avenge the murder of his parents and all the other innocent people who were murdered nearly because they stood between, Harry and Voldy.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 8, 2005 1:48 am (#230 of 594)

Choices - I don't know the text with "kill the Potter bloodline". Would you cite it for me?

I still see Lily as being valuable to Vold in some way. Not valuable enough to go out of his way, but enough to not kill her right away in the same way that he wouldn't have wanted to kill the person who found the locket. He found her cleverness respectful.

I'm also hung up on the "Macbeth syndrome" that JKR is so fond of. Is there really a legitimate reason why the Potters threatened him? Or was it exclusively because he heard a child born at the end of July was going to be his downfall and he happened to choose Harry as his target...

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Choices - Nov 8, 2005 11:39 am (#231 of 594)

Shadow - "Choices - I don't know the text with "kill the Potter bloodline". Would you cite it for me?"

I wish I could Shadow. "The Potter bloodline" are my words. I have read somewhere about Voldemort coming to kill the last two Potters - so he evidently wanted to eradicate the Potter family line for some reason. He was definitely there to kill James and Harry, but was willing to let Lily live (she being a Potter by marriage, not by blood) I honestly can't remember where I read that - I don't remember if it was from one of the books or in a JKR interview? Can someone help me out here - remind me where I read that please. I tried to do a search, but came up with zip.

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Snuffles - Nov 8, 2005 2:26 pm (#232 of 594)

Choices - If it's the one I'm thinking about. Go to the Quick Quotes Quill and look at 2005 interviews. It is the one that TLC and MN did with Jo on 16th July this year. Part 3! I think it is near the bottom of that page.

I would do a link but I don't know how! (Yes Finn, if you read this, I know you told me but hey what can I say, I'm hopeless!!)

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Verbina - Nov 8, 2005 7:49 pm (#233 of 594)

I do have a notion about why Lily was not a target...well actually two...one has already been put forth by Choices. The one thing that keeps bouncing around in my head is the bloodlines of the founders. Hermione I think said that after all this time, it is possible for many, many people to have the blood of the founders within them. So...there may be many descendants of each of the founders. It is entirely possible that James is of a family with a connection to Gryffindor. Especially after the possible connection made between Hepzipah (sp?) Smith and the Smith boy now in Hogwarts...possible descendant Hufflepuff there.

I know we have been told that Voldemort is the last living heir of Slytherin and I am not disputing that fact...though it does go back to how you decide an heir. I am sure over the years there have been many students of Hogwarts that were heirs of Slytherin but were not able to open the Chamber because they were not a parselmouth. So Tom Riddle not only had to be a blood decendant of Slytherin, he also had to have the Slytherin trait of Parselmouth. It could be a similar situation with the other founders decendants.

The other notion I have...it is pretty simple actually. Everyone keeps saying that Lily was a wonderful witch, very talented. We have been told she was good in charms and in HBP it came out that she was also talented in potions. It could be that Lily was talented enough to have captured LV's attention. Especially if she was talented in an area that Voldemort was unable to work with himself...

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 8, 2005 9:33 pm (#234 of 594)

Verbina -- yes I said virtually the same thing in post 230 and others. Vold may have respected Lily for a unique gift of hers and, perhaps if Snape found out how he was interpreting the prophecy, he may have tried to use Vold's interest in Lily to save her life.

Snape could have played it up, telling him she was an unspeakable (as many feel she could have been) and possibly that she worked in the secret room in Dept. of Mysteries. I'm sure Vold would want in on those secrets. So he was willing to spare her in the way he'd want to spare the person who got to the locket. Find out about their cleverness, etc., as well as since they defied Vold three times, he could think it was due to her talents and make him curious.

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Finn BV - Nov 9, 2005 2:26 pm (#235 of 594)

I would do a link but I don't know how! (Yes Finn, if you read this, I know you told me but hey what can I say, I'm hopeless!!) –Snuffles

How lucky I happened to stumble my merry way here! You can see the -- Navigating the Forum thread anytime you need to remember (<a href=www.URL.com>link text</a>), but here is the page you are talking about at QQQ.

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wynnleaf - Nov 10, 2005 8:07 am (#236 of 594)

Vold may have respected Lily for a unique gift of hers and, perhaps if Snape found out how he was interpreting the prophecy, he may have tried to use Vold's interest in Lily to save her life.

This sounds pretty plausible. Severus knew LV was after the Potters. He came up with some sort of reason for why LV would want to keep Lily alive and used it to try to convince LV not to kill her. LV thought Severus' argument (or whatever Severus told him about Lily) had some merit, so he gave Lily a chance to live. But Harry was his primary target, so when Lily wouldn't move aside, LV AK'd her.

This is a lot more plausible than LV giving Lily a chance to live because one of his supposedly faithful servants asked him to as a favor.

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Verbina - Nov 10, 2005 11:44 am (#237 of 594)

It could also explain why he was so set to get the Potters. As we know the Longbottoms also avoided LV at least three times. I get the feeling that LV decided that Harry and his family were the threat to him. This could be because of the bloodline (thus the killing of James and the attempt on Harry) and because of Lily being notably talented in an area he was unabel to master himself.

I have a theory that ancient magic is emotionally driven. If this is the case, and Lily was able to "tap" into the ancient magic through the emotion love...LV would be intensely curious about it and would want to learn more. Especially if it was a very strong power as I think it would be. After all, LV craves power and mastery of magic. To think that a mere muggle born girl could best him in any area...that would surely make him take notice.

That is not to say however that he would have kept her alive. He would have probably kept her alive just long enough to find out how she did it then he would have gotten rid of her.

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Choices - Nov 10, 2005 11:51 am (#238 of 594)

I have hunted and hunted and finally found the reference in the book to the "last Potter". It is in POA chapter 19 - The Servant of Lord Voldemort. Sirius is speaking......

‘ “But then I saw Peter in that picture.....I realized he was at Hogwarts with Harry....perfectly positioned to act, if one hint reached his ears that the Dark Side was gathering strength again....”

Pettigrew was shaking his head, mouthing noiselessly, but staring all the while as though hypnotized.

“....ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies.....and to deliver THE LAST POTTER to them. If he gave them Harry, who'd dare say he'd betrayed Lord Voldemort? He'd be welcomed back with honors....” ‘

Voldemort had already killed James and had been waiting all this time to finally kill the last Potter.....not just Harry, but the last Potter. This is what made me think there must be something in the bloodline of James and Harry that made Voldemort want to wipe them out. But what??

Ah, that felt good. Doesn't it drive you nuts when you know you've read something and then can't find it? I was looking up a quote about how James wouldn't have wanted Sirius and Remus to become killers by killing Peter and I found the one about the last Potter. Mercy, I'm glad to know I didn't imagine that. LOL

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wynnleaf - Nov 10, 2005 7:20 pm (#239 of 594)

Hmm, excellent catch Choices! Definitely qualifies as evidence in my opinion!

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 10, 2005 8:31 pm (#240 of 594)

Choices, thanks for the quote. Unfortunately, now I have more to ponder...

If Vold wanted to kill off the Potters, why did he need the prophecy to impel him to hunt down and kill Harry?

Here's a sick thought -- can a horcrux be a corpse? What if he wanted to kill off the two Potters, and use Harry's body as a horcrux for these "important" murders.

That would explain how the "encasement" spell was cast on Harry in order for the scar to be a horcrux. I can think of no valid scenario, up until now, that would explain how the encasement spell came to be that night. The only thing I came up with was the Godric Sword being at the cottage that night and Vold planning on using that. But it doesn't fit as to how the spell would cross over to Harry.

(this post bears in mind post #1297 on Horcrux thread citing where I think I found text evidence of scar being horcrux).

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Mrs Brisbee - Nov 11, 2005 7:19 am (#241 of 594)

“...ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies.....and to deliver THE LAST POTTER to them. If he gave them Harry, who'd dare say he'd betrayed Lord Voldemort? He'd be welcomed back with honors....”

Actually, I took that to mean the last of the Potter family-- i.e., James, Lily, and Harry-- not the last of the Potter lineage. Voldy went to Godric's Hollow and killed both James and Lily, but Harry was left alive, a loose end that needed to be dealt with. Sirius was reasoning that Pettigrew would want to have Harry killed to finish Voldy's murderous task to prove his loyalty.

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Choices - Nov 11, 2005 10:53 am (#242 of 594)

You are right Mrs. Brisbee - it could simply mean the last of the three Potters. But then why did JKR say that James was going to die anyway, but Lily could have been spared? Why was James marked for death along with Harry, but Lily - a Potter by marriage not blood -could have lived if she had chosen? I still think it could be something to do with the Potter family bloodline. For some reason, Voldemort came to Godric's Hollow to kill the last two Potters.

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Mrs Brisbee - Nov 11, 2005 12:03 pm (#243 of 594)

That's a fair point. Why James would die even if he stepped aside, and why Lily was even given a choice is very strange. Not a lot of clues to figure out why Voldemort wanted James dead but bothered to give Lily a chance to live. I suppose that there is something about the Potter bloodline is as reasonable a theory as anything else at this point.

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Choices - Nov 11, 2005 5:32 pm (#244 of 594)

It's not really a theory - just something I am curious about. It may prove to be absolutely nothing, then again..... :-)

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Madame Librarian - Nov 11, 2005 6:54 pm (#245 of 594)

It's an interesting theory this Potter line business, but I am remembering what JKR said about Harry's grandparents: they were not of great consequence to the story.

Now that doesn't preclude the Potter familial line as it were, being an important cog in the byzantine machinations of ages-old rivalries and feuds in the Wizarding world, but with the grandparental Potters not figuring in the unraveling of things, it makes the whole Potter line story kind of limp, I think.

That said, I will do a turn-about now and admit that a very old four-founders kind of backstory could involve a Potter line element that might not necessarily have to include the immediate generation or two. Perhaps it was something long ignored till Voldemort's rise to power in WWI and James's and Lily's defiance of him. I could just see Tom Riddle harboring a huge grudge about some supposed historic slap in his Gaunt ancestors' faces that he discovers as he delves into the history of the his family and the Wizarding world.

Ciao. Barb

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Verbina - Nov 11, 2005 9:32 pm (#246 of 594) Reply
Edited by Nov 11, 2005 9:35 pm<P>

In the "Is Heredity Necessary to be a Founder's Heir" thread, we were discussing this at one time. We were looking at the fact that it seemed that James was important to Voldemort to need to be killed and Harry as well, yet Lily could have lived. The chances of James being related through many many, many generations to one of the founders is very possible, especially as muddled as wizard bloodlines can get. I am still of the opinion that it takes much, much more than mere blood to be considered an heir to a founder. It was that way with Slytherin after all. In all the years since Slytherin lived, there had to have been more than just the one heir to his bloodline. Yet the only one to have opened the Chamber was Tom. Considering that not only did the "true" heir need to be of the bloodline of Slytherin they also had to be of a particular mindset to set out to find the Chamber, be smart enough to actually find it and they had to be a parseltongue. So the word "true" could mean someone like Salazaar himself. It could conceivably be the same with other founders as well.

Of course, this leads away from Godric's Hollow discussion but it is an interesting notion to chase, especially when considering that it is very likely that Voldemort was going to use the death of Harry to create a horcrux out of a Gryffindor relic. If there is a limited time in which to create a horcrux, which I do think there is, then he either had one in his possession already or knew where to get it once he had killed Harry. This could insinuate that the relic was in the Potter house. Thin but possible.

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Choices - Nov 12, 2005 9:44 am (#247 of 594)

Yes, it is interesting that JKR said that the grandparent Potters were not important, but I think she meant their physical presence in Harry's life was not important. That could still leave open that their bloodline was important.

I like the idea that it is not totally bloodline that is necessary to be an heir of one of the founders, but the proper mindset is necessary, too.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 12, 2005 1:54 pm (#248 of 594)

If you go back far enough, all the non-muggle-born wizards and witches are related. It's been mentioned several times. It's very possible Ron is a descendent of Godric, Salazar and on and on. But does that mean anything?

Regarding Potter family line or Heir of Gryffindor bloodline, blood is just not important anymore. However, that doesn't mean Vold sees it that way. If he's trying to kill off all Gryffindors, he'll really be sent on a wild goose chase.

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Choices - Nov 12, 2005 6:07 pm (#249 of 594)

I don't know, but there is probably some catch to the bloodline thing. Maybe James and Harry are the last surviving males who are descended from the eldest son of the eldest son, etc. for generations. I haven't a clue, so I sure hope JKR enlightens us in book 7.

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Jeremy Tuttle - Nov 21, 2005 6:48 pm (#250 of 594)

Here's my understanding of what happened at Godric's Hollow.

a). Dumbledore is tipped off by a spy that LV is gunning for the Potters.

b). DD tells James and Lily to go into hiding. James loans his invisibility cloak to DD for the use of other members of the Order, since he won't be needing it while in hiding. The vault key is harder to figure, perhaps so DD could arrange for payment of the bills they would incur while hidden.

c). Based on the flashback scene in the movie of Sorcerer's Stone: 1. the baby's room is starkly decorated, almost barren; 2. the lamps are definitely electric lights. This is a muggle house, not a wizard house, and the Potters only moved in a week ago. They fled their home to go into hiding in a rented house in a muggle village. This means Harry will inherit the Potter family mansion, likely with attendant house-elf or -elves.

d). Either James or Lily performed the Fidelius Charm on the house, making Peter the secret keeper as suggested by Sirius. Peter immediately reveals the secret to Sirius so he can find the house. Sirius and Peter agree to make surreptitious visits, delivering food.

e). On Halloween James looks out the window and recognizes LV approaching. So what? LV can't see them because of the Fidelius Charm. "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off--" (PoA, ch. 12, pg. 240, US pb). Why did James shout this, panicking? Because he also recognized someone else accompanying LV: Peter, the secret keeper. James knew they had been betrayed.

f). Lily has three courses of action open to her: 1. Obey James, grab Harry and run for it. 2. Draw her wand, stand and fight, like James. 3. Stay put, forget fighting, shield Harry.

g). LV kills James in combat.

h). Lily chooses option 3 (above), but why? I'm tempted to speculate that LV brought along more Death Eaters than Peter. If LV did bring extra DEs, Lily may have looked out the window and seen them, therefore decided flight was futile. There's some nice reasoning to support this, but unfortunately it doesn't fit with the flashback scene in the Sorcerer's Stone movie, so...I guess I don't have a good answer.

i). Lily offers Voldemort a trade: kill me, let Harry live. LV refuses the deal, tells her to move. She stands fast, reiterates the offer. LV murders Lily, in effect accepting her offer and agreeing to the deal. Possibly she had secretly made this a binding magical contract.

j). The Fidelius Charm is broken, because s/he who performed it has died, as Harry's paralysis ended when Dumbledore died. The house is now visible to anyone.

k). LV AKs Harry, but: SURPRISE! He reneged on the deal he agreed to with Lily. Possibly LV got hit by a "breech of contract" clause. In any case, Harry gets his scar and some of LV's powers, LV is blown to smithereens, and the house is badly damaged.

l). Peter salvages LV's wand; ("Accio wand!"). Maybe he did the same with James' and Lily's wands, too. (He's a bottom-feeder, a parasite). Then he flees.

m). # Death Eaters everywhere feel the Dark Mark suddenly disappear from their arms. They all know LV is toast, including Severus Snape, who immediately reports this to Dumbledore. (Although not yet a Hogwarts teacher, Snape has already changed sides).

n). Many wizards and witches suddenly emerge from the Imperius Curse. Word spreads fast. Only one explanation for this: You-Know-Who is gone. Party time!

o). How does Dumbledore know that the Potters have been attacked and killed, but their baby is alive and in need of rescue? I dunno.

p). How does Dumbledore know that the Potters had moved to Godric's Hollow? I dunno.

q). How does Hagrid get to Godric's Hollow so quickly? Hard to say, but I'm guessing that the village isn't terribly far from Hogwarts and Hagrid flew by thestral, which travel very fast (about 90 to 100 miles per hour, I'd guess, based on OotP; that is about 145 to 165 kilometers per hour). A portkey would only get Hagrid to GH, but not beyond it once he'd got the baby out of the ruined house. Sirius loaning his motorcycle to Hagrid was fortuitous and could not have been foreseen, certainly not counted upon.

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Soul Search - Nov 22, 2005 7:17 pm (#251 of 594)

Jeremy Tuttle, I like your general scenario, with some additions.

Snape tells Dumbledore that Voldemort is after the Potters, so the Fidelius Charm is performed. Dumbledore and Snape think Sirius is the secret keeper.

Snape learns that the secret has been betrayed, by Wormtail. But, Snape tells Dumbledore that Sirius has betrayed the secret. Dumbledore calls the Order to action. This is how Dumbledore knew what was happening. Snape was at Godric's Hollow, with Voldemort, and returned to Dumbledore, telling him what happened.

Snape telling Dumbledore that Sirius betrayed the secret is why Dumbledore never interviewed Sirius or conducted any investigation. It is also why Snape was so determined to get Sirius soul-sucked in PoA. He couldn't let Dumbledore find out that it was Wormtail that betrayed the Potters, not Sirius.

Forget the movie scene. There are a lot of DEs and Order members there. (Not in camera view?) The house is destroyed by all the spells flying around, not just Voldemort's AK. (Harry wasn't hurt.)

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Jeremy Tuttle - Nov 23, 2005 6:17 pm (#252 of 594)

Soul Search, you're right, Dumbledore did believe that Sirius was the secret keeper because that's what James told him. The switch to Peter was made at the very last minute, and only James, Lily, Sirius and Peter knew about it. Dumbledore, Lupin, and everyone else was out of the loop.

It makes great sense that Voldemort would bring along backup when he attacked the Potters. What I see in the movie scene that makes me discount the idea is that someone, presumably James, is killed just outside the door to the baby's room, after the confrontation in the doorway between Lily and the shadowy figure with wand raised, who would seem to be Voldemort. Mr. Columbus may have used jump-cutting to omit something important, or alter the sequence of events, but the way the scene plays, Voldemort finds Lily first, then turns to deal with James. Lily can't run for it with Voldemort right outside the door, and she didn't have time to look out the window.

I'm intrigued by your point about Snape intentionally deceiving Dumbledore about who betrayed the Potters. Since I despise Snape, I'm inclined to believe he'd do something that slimy. But at the end of PoA, Dumbledore did find out about Pettigrew, and trusted Sirius. Yet Dumbledore still trusts Snape, too. I'm not sure how that adds up.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 23, 2005 9:47 pm (#253 of 594)

The only problem with a lot of DE's at the scene is that Vold was alone, helpless, disembodied, etc. It seems at least one DE would aid him at the time after the AK. Unless they were not in the house itself and didn't actually see what happened. That seems plausible.

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Honour - Nov 24, 2005 1:09 am (#254 of 594)

At the time I don't even think that Voldermort would have trusted Severus enough to take him along, otherwise Severus would have known that the Secret Keepers were swapped. Bella and her "pose" were not even trusted enough to be taken along to Godric's Hollow, otherwise, she would have known what had befallen her dark lord, and in turn, the Longbottoms would not have had to be tortured for information. The only other DE that I could think of who may have been there would be Lucius and I am not entirely convinced of that either?

So maybe it was only Voldermort and Peter ... and Severus under an invisibility cloak (hahahaha just couldn't resist adding that last bit)

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frogface - Nov 24, 2005 2:42 am (#255 of 594)

I think you're right, the only candidates that I think are likely are Peter or Snape. I think Peter was quite possibly there, as a popular theory is that he retrieved Voldemorts wand (hence Big V having it to hand in GoF) and also Sirius came to Godric's Hollow later that night and tracked Peter down somehow. So my theory is that he started tracking from there.

I think Snape MAY have been there...but not on Voldemort’s orders. I know you were sort of joking when you said the invisibility cloak, Honour, but I quite like that idea. So my other pet theory is that he was there, but hidden. Either for his own motives, or for Dumbledore’s...but he can't have seen Peter if Peter was there...if he's a good guy anyway....argh it gives me a headache!

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Soul Search - Nov 24, 2005 6:15 am (#256 of 594)

The more I think of the "Snape deceived Dumbledore" theory, the more I like it. It explains a few things better than anything else. It goes something like this:

Snape disliked James, but he hated Sirius.

In the OotP pensive scene, it was Sirius that started tormenting Snape.

Later we learn that Sirius sent Snape to the shack, where he would have met werewolf Lupin.

Before Godric's Hollow, Snape was already spying for Dumbledore. He is the only candidate for telling Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters and, later, that the secret had been revealed to Voldemort and he was going to Godric's Hollow to attack them.

Given that Snape told Dumbledore the secret had been revealed, Snape had to know Wormtail was the secret keeper, or at least that it wasn't Sirius. There is also a line in the PoA shack scene that suggests James was informed, probably by Dumbledore on Snape's information, that the secret had been revealed, but James must not have believed it. James didn't tell Dumbledore that Wormtail was secret keeper.

After Godric's Hollow, Dumbledore thought Sirius had been secret keeper and betrayed his friends, so didn't investigate further, even though Sirius had been sent to Azkaban without trial.

Even in PoA, Dumbledore didn't know that Wormtail had been made secret keeper, so Snape hadn't ever told him. Snape knew that Wormtail had been made secret keeper, but neglected to mention this to Dumbledore. I doubt he said it was Sirius, just didn't say it wasn't Sirius.

After Godric's Hollow, Snape really likes the idea of Sirius being in Azkaban. He gloated. He sniggered. And, he didn't tell anyone that Wormtail had been secret keeper. He probably thought Sirius had killed Wormtail, so no one was around to reveal Snape's secret.

PoA comes along, and Snape's secret is about to be revealed. He can't have that, so he's willing to let Sirius be soul sucked to keep his secret. He still hates Sirius, so he likes the idea, anyway.

In PoA, Dubbledore finds out that Wormtail had been secret keeper, but can't quite accuse Snape of lying to him. But, he suspects Snape knew. Dumbledore is very forgiving. He is disappointed with Snape, but it doesn't change their relationship, particularly.

In OotP, Sirius has figured out that Snape knew Wormtail had been made secret keeper and had betrayed the Potters. Snape knows that Sirius knows. Their mutual hatred is intensified.

Snape deliberately tells Sirius to stay at #12, knowing that will send him immediately to the MoM to rescue Harry. Sirius is killed, and Snape's secret is safe again (Dumbledore doesn't know for sure, so won't tell.)

When and how will Harry find out the whole truth? When he learns that Snape told Dumbledore Voldemort was after the Potters, he will also know that Snape knew Wormtail had been secret keeper, not Sirius. Harry will realize that Snape could have saved Sirius from twelve years in Azkaban, and didn't. Harry's hate for Snape will intensify.

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Verbina - Nov 24, 2005 8:24 pm (#257 of 594)

The only scenario I have come up with that would work is the following...

Voldemort finds out from Peter where the Potters are hiding.

Peter cannot tell him where they are but he can show him. So Voldemort is forced to take Peter along. And, trying to see it from Big V's point of view, if Peter somehow managed to lie, Peter would be there for immediate retribution.

So they go to Godric's Hollow. Voldemort heads to the house and James meets him. Voldemort and he fight but James dies.

Wormtail remains outside while Voldemort goes in to finish the job himself. The AK backfires, destroying the house. Wormtail, being the coward he is, runs off to hide in the first place he thinks of, where the DE's meet.

The DE's somehow know that something big has happened (I am thinking they knew that Voldemort was trying to get the hiding place from Wormtail) When Wormy returns, he is immediately questioned about what happened. The DE's cannot believe that Voldemort has simply disappeared.

Wormy, not being the best at magic, would have no idea of what had happened. Couple that with the fact that he was a friend of the Potters, he would then be under immediate suspicion to the other DE's. Wormy, realizing what is going on with the DE's runs away but becomes aware of the fact that someone is following him. The DE's probably think that he turned LV into the MoM.

Meanwhile, Sirius, in the form of Padfoot, is able to literally sniff out Wormy's trail and follow him. Wormy may not know who is following him but he knows he is in danger. And we all know he likes to preserve his skin. So he figures out a plan to become dead so that no one, not even the DE's can track him down to kill him.

Sirius happens to catch up to him first so Sirius is the one that caught all the blame for the explosion and the death of Wormy.

The DE's, still trying to figure out what happened decide to search out known Aurors, thinking that Wormy turned LV over to them. Thus the LeStranges visit the Longbottoms.

This would explain many things 1) Who was with LV 2) How the DE's knew that LV disappeared without knowing the circumstances 3) How Sirius was able to track Wormy 4) Why Wormy felt it neccessary to go into hiding (two of the 4 people that knew he was secret keeper were dead, the third being the one everyone thought was secret keeper and himself so why the need to hide when it would be his word against Sirius?) 5) Why even now, the DE's dont' seem to entirly trust Wormy.

Feel free to shoot holes in it.

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Honour - Nov 24, 2005 10:23 pm (#258 of 594)

Hey there Frogface, look, I (half- jokingly - sp?) suggested Severus under an invisibility cloak ... but if as had been suggested by other posters that James lent his invisibility cloak to DD for the Orders' use, then maybe Severus was able to get it from DD "to do surveillance for the Order?", (Severus probably just took it, or didn't return it?) and maybe this is how DD had James' cloak to pass it on to Harry? OK it was a stretch ....

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wynnleaf - Nov 28, 2005 12:45 pm (#259 of 594)

Two comments:

LV didn't have to take Pettigrew along to find the house. As we saw with 12 GP, all he really needed was a written note from Pettigrew stating the location of the house.

Second, at the end of POA, Severus gets really furious and talks about James being too stupid to realize that Sirius was the traitor. He's sooo furious in fact, that it just doesn't seem like an act at all. Severus comes across there as truly believing that Sirius was the secret keeper and the traitor.

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ex-FAHgeek - Nov 28, 2005 3:34 pm (#260 of 594) Reply
Edited by Nov 28, 2005 3:34 pm<P>

Second, at the end of POA, Severus gets really furious and talks about James being too stupid to realize that Sirius was the traitor. He's sooo furious in fact, that it just doesn't seem like an act at all. Severus comes across there as truly believing that Sirius was the secret keeper and the traitor.

I've always felt that one of the things that really burned Snape was that he thought that Black had been a more effective double-agent than he was. How dare that arrogant little mutt be so undercover that even a spy extraordinaire like himself didn't realize that Black was playing both sides (regardless of which side Snape's true loyalty lies)! I think Snape nursed that bee in his bonnet for a long twelve years.

Really, Lord Voldemort sending Pettigrew to Snape's house could be seen as a sort of punishment for Snape: not only was he unaware of Black, he was even more unaware of Pettigrew. Luckily for the rat, Snape burned out too much of his hatred on Black and is being spared the full brunt of Snape's ire.

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Honour - Nov 29, 2005 2:34 am (#261 of 594)

Hey there Wynnleaf, you're right about Severus' anger towards James because he was so sure that Sirius was the traitor. Somewhere there must be some quite compelling evidence, because even Dumbledore suspects Sirius, so much so that he doesn't even question the charges brought against Sirius, nor even raise the validity of sending someone to Azkaban without a trial, and this is from someone who believes in "second chances".

What I do know of the situation between Severus and Sirius is that it is a very deep and reciprocal angry hate, I wonder why?

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ex-FAHgeek - Nov 29, 2005 9:51 am (#262 of 594) Reply
Edited by Nov 29, 2005 9:53 am<P>

Somewhere there must be some quite compelling evidence, because even Dumbledore suspects Sirius, so much so that he doesn't even question the charges brought against Sirius, nor even raise the validity of sending someone to Azkaban without a trial, and this is from someone who believes in "second chances".

Dumbledore's evidence was that he knew (or thought he knew) about the Secret Keeper. He mentions that he himself provided said evidence against Sirius in Chapter 21 of PoA. Dumbledore believed that there was only one possibility: Sirius had betrayed the Potters to Voldemort.

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Honour - Nov 29, 2005 5:23 pm (#263 of 594)

Thanks for that, ex-FAHgeek, vaguely remember ... Will have to go for a look. Love to know what the evidence was, then can put that baby to bed, hopefully something else JKR will have to put into book 7. I do remember Dumbledore saying that when he makes mistakes their doozies (paraphrased by me), and in Sirius' case it was a 'big un'.

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Verbina - Nov 30, 2005 8:16 pm (#264 of 594)

I do have to modify my idea a little. Voldemort didn't have to take Peter with him to the house but if he suspected Peter would be a traitor to him, he would likely have taken him along as...bait? I mean, Peter ratted out the Potters...people he was friends with. If he can't keep his loyalty to them, then how can anyone trust him to keep his loyalty to anyone except for his loyalty for saving his own skin.

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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 1, 2005 4:57 pm (#265 of 594)

Verbina, regarding loyalty, so very true. I don't think Vold ever valued Wormtail (as I think perhaps he did with Lucius way back when). Wormtail started spying and giving Vold information but it had little to do with love of the Dark Arts, like Snape. It seems he was simply looking to be important to someone, rather than the one worshipping others (like James). Vold is no fool and I'm sure he knew that from the beginning. Just the way Wormtail looks at Vold with such revulsion...obviously not a true ally.

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Soul Search - Dec 14, 2005 3:32 pm (#266 of 594)

What do you all think Harry will find when he visits Godric's Hollow? His intention to visit came out of the blue. Must be something significant.

Maybe seeing his parents’ graves will firm up his resolve to defeat Voldemort, not that it needs more.

Ideas?

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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 8, 2006 11:01 pm (#267 of 594)

In PoA, the movie, Harry talks to Lupin, I thought I heard something about him wanting to talk to his parents (it was just static). However, we know now that Harry is going to GH, because that is where it all starts. Ron and Hermione will accompany Harry there.

When I heard this, I got an image of Ron and Hermione embodying James and Lily and offering Harry an opportunity to talk, touch and interact with his parents.

This comes from science fiction shows. There is an episode of Star Trek where James Kirk and a female crew member give two ancient spirits the chance to hold physical form for one last union.

I wonder though, since all along I have seen Ron and Hermione representing "family" to Harry. They have been his family at school and present the possibility of the intimacy and safety of family for his future. If nothing else R&H will be there when Harry first experiences his family.

However, will JK take an opportunity to give Harry the worst and most dangerous news when he is safely in his homestead? Then meet his parents in the safety of Ron and Hermione?

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haymoni - Feb 9, 2006 6:01 am (#268 of 594)

Sorry, but I got that creepy feeling when I watched "Ghost" and Whoopi Goldberg let Patrick Swayze "use" her. Yuck!

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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 9, 2006 6:10 am (#269 of 594)

This would be more a parental relation than a romantic relation so some of that factor would be reduced or removed.

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Honour - Feb 9, 2006 12:41 pm (#270 of 594)

Plus I think this would be unfair to Harry and the memory of his parents. He has accepted their death and to revisit with them would be a step backwards (a la mirror of Erised), and interfere in the flow of the story line, Horcrux hunt, save the World, finish school, have a life scenario? Smile

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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 21, 2006 9:56 am (#271 of 594)

Wooooos, Given the answer the FAQs on JKR site today, How is Harry going to get to Godric's Hallow? Does he have to find Wormtail and force him to reveal the location? Is the fact that "lived" in the house a way for him apparate into that space again? woooa!!!

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Steve Newton - Feb 21, 2006 10:03 am (#272 of 594)

I'm guessing that finding Godric's Hollow will be relatively easy. Finding the proper house will take some doing. Perhaps Peter will repay his debt with this information.

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haymoni - Feb 21, 2006 10:17 am (#273 of 594)

I haven't read the poll question because the dementors here at work have JKR's site blocked, so my comment may not be correct.

I thought the secret was connected to the location of the Potters. If someone wanted to know where Godric's Hollow was, they could find it, but they wouldn't be able to see the Potters inside.

Wasn't there some quote about having your nosed pressed against the glass and still not being able to find them?

Again - I haven't read JKR's response, so I could be way off base.

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hiril - Feb 21, 2006 8:51 pm (#274 of 594)

I think, innately, Harry knew about the location of his home before the charm was put in place. Thats just a thought.

But I have a question. How did Hagrid find Godric's Hollow that night when he went to retrieve Harry? DD couldn't tell him, and I don't think he would have known in the first place. And Pettigrew certainly wouldn't have told him.

My only thought was that perhaps once Voldemort brought the house down, the spell was broken since Godric's Hollow, the 'secret place,' was essentially destroyed.

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TheSaint - Mar 4, 2006 10:45 am (#275 of 594)

I agree. If Hagrid had to get out of the house before the muggles showed up...the spell must have been broken.

But wasn't it DD that sent Hagrid? Possibly by Patronous message?

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The One - Mar 4, 2006 11:01 am (#276 of 594)

It is quite possibly that a lot of members of the order knew in advance. As they was not the secret keeper they could not tell others. The problem of course is that these will have been told by Peter.

Is it possible to change secret keeper after the spell is done? Could they make Sirius keeper, let him tell who needed to know, and then change to Peter?

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TheSaint - Mar 4, 2006 12:45 pm (#277 of 594)

Seems the secret was broken by the betrayal by the keeper. How else would Sirius be able to tell us the story of where the secret place was? It had to have broken somehow.

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Solitaire - Mar 5, 2006 10:22 am (#278 of 594)

I think Sirius says they changed to Peter at the last minute. I don't think they made Sirius the secret-keeper then changed to Peter. I do not believe that can be done once the spell has been cast.

Perhaps the spell is broken when the one who cast it--Lily, in this case?--dies.

Solitaire

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Soul Search - Mar 5, 2006 8:17 pm (#279 of 594)

Interesting point, Solitaire. We have been focusing on the "Secret Keeper," without thought as to the spell caster. Does the Secret Keeper cast the spell? Or does someone else have to perform the magic?

Given that it is "an immensely complex spell" (Flitwick, PoA Broomsticks scene) Dumbledore or Flitwick might have cast the spell. So, whoever cast the spell had to be in on the secret. Could explain how Dumbledore knew about it.

Given that the Potters were the secret, I would expect they had to be there. The Unbreakable Vow Spell casting in "Spinner's End" comes to mind. Bellatrix acted as, what was it, Binder? Anyway, a third party acted for Narcissa and Snape.

The same could have happened among the Potters, Pettigrew, and whoever cast the spell.

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Solitaire - Mar 5, 2006 8:35 pm (#280 of 594)

Since even Dumbledore did not know that the Potters had changed their Secret-Keeper from Sirius to Pettigrew, he could not have been the caster. I believe Lily cast the spell. If it had to be a third party, then my guess would be either James or Sirius.

Solitaire

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 5, 2006 8:49 pm (#281 of 594)

There are only four individuals that could have been the caster of the Fidelus charm: Lily, James, Sirius, or Peter.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

“ . . .an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. “(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (e.g., the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.

I doubt that given the trouble Peter had in becoming an animagus when taken in conjunction with the comments Sirius made about Peter lacking talent, causes me to doubt that he could be the caster of the charm. That leaves us with three possibilities James, Lily, and Sirius.

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Soul Search - Mar 6, 2006 6:18 am (#282 of 594)

Solitaire, Nathan Zimmermann, you are right about Dumbledore not knowing about the change in secret keeper, so he could not have been involved in casting the Fidelius Charm for the Potters. And that rules out any but Lily, James, Sirius, or Peter.

We know the Ministry of Magic has some mechanism for detecting the use of magic: Dobby in CoS, maybe Harry in PoA, but not who performed the magic. Not too much of a stretch for Dumbledore to have a similar mechanism. Detecting serious dark magic at Godric's Hollow, Dumbledore could have sent Hagrid to investigate.

But, Hagrid knowing the Potter's secret, that still can't be explained. The secret must have gone away with the death of the caster, either Lily or James.

Pettigrew, rather than just telling Voldemort, could have "undid" the spell. There must be such a mechanism; one wouldn't always want a secret to last forever. The Longbottoms probably also had such a secret. When Voldemort was gone, they came out of hiding. A bit too soon, turns out.

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Choices - Mar 6, 2006 10:41 am (#283 of 594)

I think the Fidelius Charm was cast by someone immediately involved in the secret - namely Lily, James or Peter, and I think since Lily's wand was particularly good for charms work, she would be the most likely one to have cast the spell.

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Solitaire - Mar 6, 2006 11:00 am (#284 of 594)

Since casting Fidelius Charm involves concealing the secret inside someone, I feel it must be cast by someone other than the Secret-Keeper. Given that it involves a type of faith (fidelius) bond between two people, I wouldn't even be surprised if it required a third party to cast it (like the Unbreakable Vow). Of course, this could still have been done with just Lily, James, and Peter. Ollivander's information that Lily's wand was good for Charm work leads me to suspect that she may have been the one who cast the Fidelius Charm.

As to what alerted Dumbledore to the events in GH, I would imagine the Dark Mark was hovering over the Potters' house after James was killed, since he appears to have been one of the specific targets. Perhaps Dumbledore had ways of knowing what was going on in that house. I doubt he would have relied on owls for information ... although I suppose Fawkes could have been on the watch.

James and Sirius may have used their two-way mirrors to communicate, however, while James and Lily were in hiding. Could some problem with James's mirror have caused Sirius to go out and check on Peter? When did Sirius get James's mirror back? Did he take it from GH that night? Just wondering ...

Solitaire

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Steve Newton - Mar 6, 2006 11:17 am (#285 of 594)

Just some idle thoughts that may be repetitive or inane. My usual, in other words.

What if the charm was worded so that the secret was where James and Lily were living. As soon as they were dead I would think that there would no longer be a secret since they would no longer be living anywhere.

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Choices - Mar 6, 2006 11:26 am (#286 of 594)

I agree with that Steve (not the repetitive and inane part - LOL) - but the part about Lily and James dying and the secret was no longer necessary. Perhaps the secret covered only Lily and James, and Harry, as a minor child, was covered with them, but not specifically named in the charm (sort of like Harry in the little boat with Dumbledore and Harry didn't count because he was underage and not qualified). Their deaths ended the charm even though Harry was still alive. Just a thought.

Solitaire - "As to what alerted Dumbledore to the events in GH, I would imagine the Dark Mark was hovering over the Potters' house after James was killed..."

Hagrid loves to tell stories and if there had been a Dark Mark floating over the Potter's house, I definitely think he would have told that when he recounted how he got Harry out of the ruins. Besides, I don't think that if there was anyone with Voldemort, they would have taken the time to run outside and fire up the Dark Mark when Voldemort had just been blown away by a backfiring AK. There would hardly have been time between the killing of James and the confrontation with Lily upstairs and the demise of Voldemort's body. After that, there would have been so much fear and chaos (if any DE's had been there), I don't think they would have even thought about a Dark Mark - only getting out of there and wondering what had happened to their master.

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Mattew Bates - Mar 6, 2006 2:52 pm (#287 of 594)

Since even Dumbledore did not know that the Potters had changed their Secret-Keeper from Sirius to Pettigrew, he could not have been the caster. -Solitaire, post #280

Please allow me to lob in a monkeywrench - Pettigrew could have used Polyjuice Potion to look like Sirius for the casting. Heck, he could have even used it to tell others the secret.

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Solitaire - Mar 7, 2006 11:18 am (#288 of 594)

I think Pettigrew would have had to be present, with Lily and anyone else who may have been involved, for the casting of this spell. Why would he have wanted to look like Sirius?

Solitaire

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Mattew Bates - Mar 8, 2006 2:27 pm (#289 of 594)

Solitaire,

Pettigrew would want to look like Sirius to fool anyone else present at the Fidelius casting into thinking that Sirius was the secret keeper. This way, anyone could have been present at the casting (esp. Dumbledore), and they would be absolutely convinced that Sirius was the secret keeper.

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Choices - Mar 8, 2006 2:45 pm (#290 of 594)

I'm confused - wasn't it Sirius that convinced Lily and James to use Peter as secret keeper? Wouldn't Lily and James have noticed that the one taking the vow as secret keeper didn't look like Peter?

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Mattew Bates - Mar 8, 2006 3:45 pm (#291 of 594)

OK, I reread my previous post, and I think I phrased it poorly. It's really difficult to phrase some of this, As Peter was the secret Secret Keeper. I'm going to abbreviate Secret Keeper as SK.

Lily and James were in on switching Peter & Sirius as SK, so they would have been in on whatever measures were taken to keep everyone else fooled as to who the real SK was. So, if anyone else (Dumbledore, most likely) needed to be present at the Fidelus casting, the four of them would have had to conspire to fool them/him. Polyjuice would have made such a conspiracy possible. Polyjuice would have also come in handy when someone in the Order needed to know where the Potters were hiding without revealing the true identity of the SK.

As a side thought, I think Lily would have brewed better polyjuice than Peter, Sirius, or James - she was Sluggy's prized pupil, after all.

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Choices - Mar 8, 2006 7:03 pm (#292 of 594)

I have a slightly better understanding of what you are saying, but I still do not see why Lily and James would go to such measures to fool Dumbledore (of all people). What would they gain by doing this? If it were me, I sure wouldn't want to have Dumbledore mad at me for tricking him....or trying to. Not with Voldemort on my trail.

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shepherdess - Mar 8, 2006 7:44 pm (#293 of 594)

Why would anyone else need to be present except the spell caster (possibly Lily in this case), and the person they're casting the spell on (the secret keeper, or Pettigrew in this case)?

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Mattew Bates - Mar 9, 2006 2:30 pm (#294 of 594)

Dumbledore described the Fidelus Charm as "immensely complex." There was some speculation that if Dumbledore described it as such, then he might be the only one capable of casting it. If (and only if) that is the case, then this theory presents a way which they could have fooled Dumbledore at the casting. As to why to fool Dumbledore, Choices - they were trying to fool everybody, to draw suspicion away from Pettigrew. Whether or not they used polyjuice to do it, that included Dumbledore. Even when their plan backfired, they still fooled everybody for 12 1/2 years. Sirius must have pitched it as the prank of the century, with practical applications. The joke was on all of them.

“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.” Sir Walter Scott

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Solitaire - Mar 11, 2006 9:44 pm (#295 of 594)

As I said previously, Dumbledore did not know the Potters had switched from Sirius to Peter, so he was obviously not at the casting. I am betting the only ones there were James, Lily and Peter.

Whether or not they used polyjuice to do it, that included Dumbledore. Even when their plan backfired, they still fooled everybody for 12 1/2 years.

In order for this to be true, the entire Shrieking Shack scene would have to be phony. Is this what you are suggesting?

Sirius must have pitched it as the prank of the century, with practical applications. The joke was on all of them.

I cannot believe Sirius would have been this cavalier with the lives and safety of the Potters hanging in the balance. It doesn't make any sense, and it certainly does not fit with what anyone said in the Shrieking Shack that night. As emotional as were the goings on there, I can't believe either Peter or Sirius would have had the presence of mind to keep up such a pretense.

Solitaire

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Aimee Shawn - Mar 12, 2006 5:40 pm (#296 of 594)

I agree Solitaire. Everything we have learned about Sirius and the Potters showed they were devoted friends. To have him be so cavalier about the lives of James, Lily, and baby Harry seems out of character. He and James were best friends. From all he had told Harry in PoA,GoF,and OotP about his parents everything was said with love. It sounded like he cared for James's parents as well for their kindnesses over the years. To treat something so serious as a prank is inconceivable based on what we have learned about the friends. I got the impression, perhaps wrongly, that going into hiding was an act of desperation, a last resort to keep the family safe, hardly something one would use as a way to amuse people.

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Mattew Bates - Mar 13, 2006 10:45 am (#297 of 594)

Maybe I just have a different read of Sirius than others, Aimee Shawn and Solitaire. He was a devoted friend of Lupin, too, and still put him at terrible risk with his infamous "prank" on Snape. He was devoted to Harry, yet still disappointed in him at the times he chose to be discreet in OotP. In my eyes, Sirius was much like Fred & George - he always viewed pranking & rule breaking as a positive. I don't see him presenting the plan to switch SK's in a cavalier manner, per se - he knew the gravity of the situation. He would simply find pleasure in viewing the plan as a grand prank, as well. Opinions may vary.

In order for this to be true, the entire Shrieking Shack scene would have to be phony. Is this what you are suggesting?

Solitaire, I was trying to say that Dumbledore was necessarily included among the people who had been fooled by the SK switch, not those included at the Fidelius casting. I concede that Dumbledore may not have been at the casting. My whole point has always been that he could have been there & still been fooled, not that he must have been there. Or are you disagreeing with something else? Did I get the math wrong (12 1/2 years)?

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haymoni - Mar 13, 2006 10:56 am (#298 of 594)

I think Sirius was so broken up at being the cause of the Secret Keeper fiasco, he would have confessed to the whole prank thing when he was explaining things to Harry.

It's bad enough as it is.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have gone down as you explained, I'm just saying the guilt Sirius had was enough without adding more to it.

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Aimee Shawn - Mar 13, 2006 12:00 pm (#299 of 594)

I also think Sirius has grown up since his and James's "wild days". He has been through a lot -loss of his dear friends, prison- and he has matured at least to the point of taking responsibility for things he did or even thought he was partly responsible for.

I have no doubt he thought it a lark to break rules and disrupt everything he could while he was at school (can you imagine if the Weasley Twins were in school with the Marauders? Yikes!!) but my take on him from all I've read about him, is he has changed considerably.

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Mattew Bates - Mar 13, 2006 1:01 pm (#300 of 594)

At the risk of belaboring an issue of opinion, Aimee, I'm speculating about the mind set of Sirius shortly post-Hogwarts, before his Azkaban stint and the loss of the Potters. If you believe those events helped to make him more responsible (I certainly do), then you must concede that he was less responsible before them.

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haymoni - Mar 13, 2006 1:04 pm (#301 of 594)

Mattew - you could be totally correct!

I have been wrong on many occasion here on this Forum - Mark Evans, Draco returning to Hogwarts - things that I felt so sure about and actually had some canon evidence for.

But alas, earwax!

Book 7 can't get here quick enough!

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Aimee Shawn - Mar 13, 2006 7:09 pm (#302 of 594)

Matthew, I stand corrected. Yup, you are right. I, for some reason, got my times mixed up and was thinking of Sirius after he fled prison, not prior to prison. Thanks for the wake up! He had such a sad life, I wanted him to be redeemed. I retract my message. He could have been a jerk.

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Mattew Bates - Mar 15, 2006 10:43 am (#303 of 594)

I don't see this particular idea as Sirius being a jerk. I can't really fault those who do, as I feel he was being a jerk in the aforementioned Snape/Lupin fiasco. I see it as him keeping his (occasionally irresponsible) sense of humor through a time of adversity.

Agreed, Haymoni - bring on "Harry Potter and the Horcrux Hunt" - or is it "Harry Potter and the Dark Lord Voldemort" ?

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haymoni - Mar 15, 2006 12:54 pm (#304 of 594)

How about "Harry Potter and the Excruciatingly Long Wait"???

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Choices - Mar 15, 2006 7:10 pm (#305 of 594)

I like "Harry Potter and I Can't Believe It's the Last Book" - comes with a waterproof cover because we'll all be sobing over it knowing it is the end.

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John Bumbledore - Mar 16, 2006 2:09 pm (#306 of 594)

Mattew, Haymoni, and Choices, I empathise with your impatience, but I also am feeling a foreboding. I think it is likely that we will say a final farewell to one or more main characters aside from it being the last book. So I am thinking I can wait a time before losing another friend to Voldimort.

But, I was looking for the Godric's Hollow thread. After I read your last few posts, I thought to ask, "if you all could direct me to the Godric's Hollow thread" **a bit tongue in cheek, if you will** But though it would be a good question for this thread.

Harry Potter: (taping a stranger on the shoulder) Excuse me, can you tell me how to get to Godric's Hollow?

So, if Harry wants to go to Godric's Hollow to see his parents graves, must he first find Peter and ask him?

<)B^D˜ John Bumbledore

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haymoni - Mar 17, 2006 6:05 am (#307 of 594)

I think Hagrid can tell him where Godric's Hollow is. Probably Lupin can too.

For that matter, Arthur Weasley could tell him as well. I'm sure he knows every town and hamlet, especially those with Muggles!

I don't think we have to worry about the Secret Keeper thing when trying to find a town.

Now the main argument has been whether or not Harry can see the HOUSE or the RUINS of the house.

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TheSaint - Mar 17, 2006 6:29 am (#308 of 594)

Hagrid said the house was almost destroyed, and the muggles would be able to see it. Odds are the house is not sitting there in the same condition 16 years later. Either DD fixed it, slowly so no one noticed, or it has been leveled.

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haymoni - Mar 17, 2006 6:52 am (#309 of 594)

Or it has enchantments that keep it from being seen, like the Leaky Cauldron.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 20, 2006 10:58 pm (#310 of 594)

There has been much talk on that very subject even amongst the ghosts, interrupted Nearly-Headless Nick, inclining his barely connected head toward Harry so that it wobbled dangerously on its ruff. "I am considered something of a Potter authority; it is widely known that we are friendly, I have assured the spirit community that I will not pester you, for information, however. `Harry Potter knows he can confide in me with complete confidence ,' I told them. `I would rather die than betray his trust.'" "That's not saying much , seeing as you're already dead," Ron observed. "Once again you show all the sensitivity of a blunt axe,..." pages 215-216 of the large print edition of HBP.

This phrasing has me wondering could Nearly Headless Nick have information pertinent to the events at Godric's Hollow and know its location.

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Solitaire - Mar 26, 2006 9:32 pm (#311 of 594)

I'm sorry. The whole idea of Sirius and Peter switching via Polyjuice just does not make any sense to me in any possible way. I don't even see a reason for it.

Solitaire

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frogface - Mar 27, 2006 5:20 am (#312 of 594)

I think the arguement behind it, Solitaire, is that if the SK was required by DD to give the location of the Potter's to a member of the Order (say, Hagrid - Although this is hypothetical, because we know Hagrid didn't know who the SK was) and Dumbledore was present, then James, Sirius and Peter would have to fool Dumbledore in order to keep the pretense up. Therefore, Peter would take the polyjuice potion, and give the location to Hagrid disguised as Sirius, and DD being present (and anyone else who thought that Sirius was the SK) would have been fooled.

It’s a bit too elaborate for me though, I imagine Peter would have just left notes for people who needed to know the location, just as DD did in OotP when he was SK for Grimmauld Place.

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Solitaire - Mar 27, 2006 7:43 pm (#313 of 594)

The person who is NOT the Secret Keeper cannot reveal the location. We know this because Dumbledore told Harry that this is why Kreacher could not give up the Order headquarters ... because he was not the Secret Keeper. Snape told Bella the same thing, so it must be true. Apparently, once the Charm is performed, everyone else is magically prevented from giving the location, even if they know it.

More to the point, however, no one in the Order would have asked Sirius for the location anyway, if they believed him to be the Secret Keeper. The whole theory just doesn't make sense to me. I've read and reread it, but it does not work at all for me. I think Peter and Sirius were being perfectly candid back in the Shrieking Shack.

Solitaire

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frogface - Mar 28, 2006 1:08 am (#314 of 594)

Um, I know the only person who can give away the location is the SK, did I say something contrary to that? No one would ask Sirius directly I agree, because A) It seems that it wasn't widely known until after James and Lily were dead that Sirius was the SK (of course we now know that he wasn't really the SK but you get what I mean) and B) It was kept secret for a reason so people wouldn't do well to go around asking. But what I'm trying to say is that Dumbledore might have required some people to know. Surpose he sent an owl to Sirius saying "Can we meet because I feel that I should know where Godric's Hollow is so that I can make plans should something go wrong". Sirius is going to think "oh no! I can't tell him because I'm not actually the SK, but we need to keep that secret from everyone but me, peter, james and lily!" So Peter takes polyjuice potion to disguise himself as Sirius and goes to meet Dumbledore.

So I would say that the theory does make sense up until that point. But I still agree with you that it probably didn't happen, because someone would have mentioned it in the Shrieking Shack. There are far more simple ways or getting around the problem, such as Peter leaving notes for people (such as DD). Should the need have ever arisen.

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Solitaire - Mar 28, 2006 7:21 am (#315 of 594)

I think Dumbledore knew where GH was, just as Snape knows where the HQ of the Order is. Alas, not being the Secret Keeper, he cannot divulge it to Bella. Remember he told her that in Spinner's End:

Bella says to Snape, "And, while we are on the subject of the Order, you still claim you cannot reveal the whereabouts of their headquarters, don't you?"

“I am not the Secret Keeper; I cannot speak the name of the place. You understand how the enchantment works, I think? ...”

Frankly, I just don't think Dumbledore would have asked Sirius, whom he believed to be the Secret Keeper, to tell him where the house is, even if he didn't know it himself (which I believe he did). The whole scenario is out of character with both Dumbledore and Sirius. I guess the most obvious reason I find it hard to believe is that, if Sirius (or a disguised Peter) had gone to Dumbledore, he would have said something to Sirius about it when Sirius talked to him back in PoA, and we would have known by now.

Solitaire

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frogface - Mar 28, 2006 10:14 am (#316 of 594)

Yes I agree with all that, like I said I don't personally buy the idea. I was just using Dumbledore as an example to show that there was a logic behind the theory.

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Solitaire - Mar 29, 2006 11:06 am (#317 of 594)

Over on Ollivander's thread, we got onto the possibility of his having used the Fidelius Charm to hide right in his shop. Alas, it wandered far afield, so I am bringing a discussion from there to here, as I think it fits better. This is in reference to Phelim's post #322 on Ollivander's thread.

Phelim, I was not thinking that specifically. I was thinking Dumbledore probably said, "Hagrid, please go to the Potters' house and check things out. If you find Harry, please bring him back to Hogwarts," or wherever it was that he took him.

Solitaire

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Deb Zawacki - Apr 1, 2006 3:56 pm (#318 of 594)

Why can't Harry use the pensieve to bring up his memory of that night--he does remember some of it because it has come up in his dreams etc. The subconscious can retain certain things--Harry has visited in several books now so why not try it out for himself?

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Solitaire - Apr 2, 2006 10:58 pm (#319 of 594)

A good question, Deb. Some of us have asked it before.

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The giant squid - Apr 2, 2006 11:43 pm (#320 of 594)

Well, he couldn't before because the Pensieve wasn't his. Perhaps Dumbledore will leave it to him and we can in fact see "that night" at Godric's Hollow finally.

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Deb Zawacki - Apr 3, 2006 7:36 am (#321 of 594)

Didn't Snape borrow it--Harry said it was the same one...

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frogface - Apr 3, 2006 7:48 am (#322 of 594)

Dumbledore got it back though. He was using it with Harry in HBP.

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Choices - Apr 3, 2006 8:50 am (#323 of 594)

So, Harry could borrow it just as Snape did.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 3, 2006 10:08 am (#324 of 594)

But what if Harry was asleep when Mouldy Volide called? Yes we know that he fell asleep while with Hagrid, but he may have only woken up after the big bang. If he was asleep the pensive wouldn't be much good.

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haymoni - Apr 3, 2006 11:00 am (#325 of 594)

Wouldn't you have to actually remember the memory in order to extract it yourself?

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The giant squid - Apr 3, 2006 11:13 am (#326 of 594)

Harry does have memories of that night--otherwise the dementors wouldn't be able to affect him as much as they do. As for "borrowing" the pensieve, Harry wouldn't have done that before without permission. Now that DD is gone, though, the idea may finally occur to him.

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Deb Zawacki - Apr 3, 2006 12:02 pm (#327 of 594)
Edited Apr 3, 2006 1:04 pm

As for what Harry will find at GH--I think it will be peace and determination. I rather see him standing there at the end coming to terms with the memories, maybe seeing things others can't--not as the scene of battle--this was his home, his parents lived there--he should have had a happy childhood there... Maybe when he passes his apparition test he'll decide to go there first....then having an encounter with his parent's spirits asking him to return to Hogwarts.

I imagine him finding his father's glasses, a photo of him and his mother....maybe even something for Petunia as well--a letter written from Lily in love. To me that would be the real clincher--if Harry could find love in his heart for his mother's sister, maybe even some compassion. I can see a final scene or an epilogue where Harry knocks on the Dursely's door--its Christmas and Petunia hugs him...as it should have been.

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frogface - Apr 3, 2006 1:58 pm (#328 of 594)

An idea just struck me. In OotP we see that in DD's absence, many of the objects that were damaged when he fled Hogwarts managed to fix themselves. Is it possible that a house, if magically built, could have reconstructed itself? This is highly unlikely seeing as Muggles seemed to be able to have seen the ruin according to Hagrid, but it’s still an interesting concept.

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Deb Zawacki - Apr 3, 2006 3:18 pm (#329 of 594)

Domicilus Reparo!

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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 4, 2006 8:10 pm (#330 of 594)
Edited Apr 4, 2006 9:41 pm

A thought occurred to me. Before the events of OotP Sirius gave 12 GP to Dumbledore for use as the Order's headquarters. This struck me as interesting.

Sirius was confined in hiding at the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix during much of OotP.

The Order of the Phoenix had been formed to combat Voldemort and the Death Eaters in the 1970's it seems logical that order also had a headquarters at that time.

Is it possible that Godric's Hollow was the original headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix?

I would like give a scenario in a list form that explains my thoughts

1. If Godric's Hollow was the headquarters for the Order it is possible that the cottage had some means of communication with Dumbledore just as he did with 12 GP through the portraits of Phienas Nigellus Black given this statement made by J.K Rowling in 2001 Newsround

Q: “And I'm going to ask one other question which you'll say isn't clever at all. The significance of the place where Harry and his parents lived, the first name” - A: “Godric Gryffindor. Very good, you're a bit good you are, aren't you?”

2. Also, as the Secret Keeper of the Potters, Peter Pettigrew could reveal the location of the Potters hiding place.

3. Peter Pettigrew could not name the location of the Headquarters of the Order because Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper.

4. The reports of the destruction at Godric's Hollow reach Dumbledore.

5. Dumbledore learns the house at Godric's Hollow has been attacked and partially destroyed.

6. Dumbledore knows that he has not revealed the location of headquarters to Voldemort, and that there must have been another Fidelius Charm cast over the place concealing another secret.

7. Dumbledore in the meantime ascertains that the Longbottoms are safe and unharmed.

8. Once this information is confirmed Dumbledore realizes it is the Potters that have been killed and begins the preparations that result in Harry being left at the Dursleys.

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Mediwitch - Apr 5, 2006 7:03 pm (#331 of 594)

OOH, Nathan, that seems very plausible. Nice thoughts! I've Got It

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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 5, 2006 9:57 pm (#332 of 594)
Edited Apr 5, 2006 11:19 pm

Mediwitch there are four clarifications that I need to make my theory.

On point 1 realized I misspelled Phineas Nigellus Black's first name only after it was too late to edit

On point 4. I meant to say that reports from Dumbledore's network of spies within the ranks of the Death Eaters reached him saying that there had been an attack at Godric's Hollow

On Point 5 Dumbledore confirmed that Godric's Hollow had been attacked but, could not independently confirm the condition of the house. The condition of the house was later confirmed by Hagrid.

On point 6 Even though his network of spies warned him that the Potters were Voldemort's primary target it seems likely, that given the ambiguous nature of the prophecy that Dumbledore arranged for the Longbottoms to go into hiding as well feeling that it would be more prudent because, he does not like to chances with the lives of other people.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 6, 2006 7:55 am (#333 of 594)
Edited Apr 6, 2006 9:05 am

Here is an additional thought that would tend to support such a theory.

Assuming that the house at Godric's Hollow was the original headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix, that would explain why Hagrid, and Sirius would have knowledge of its location. As members of the Order they would naturally know the location of its headquarters.

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Mattew Bates - Apr 10, 2006 10:46 am (#334 of 594)

Cross-post from the Fidelus Charm thread (as it is not yet permanent).

In other words, a secret (e.g., the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information. (emphasis mine)

Upon re-reading JKR's answer to the F.A.Q. poll, I was able to discern Ms. Rowling clarifying a point for us. She implies that one of the Potters could have been captured, so they could not have been individually hidden by the charm. The Fidelius Charm protecting the Potters must have made their location in Godric's Hollow a secret, because Pettigrew had to reveal a precise location to divulge the secret.

As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window! (PA10)

I believe too much has been made of the last words of this quote, without taking the rest into context. The quote is from Flitwick, who almost definitely did not know the particulars of the Potters' Fidelus Charm. It read to me as an expression of speech, not a statement of fact.

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haymoni - Apr 10, 2006 11:26 am (#335 of 594)

Mattew - I have to disagree.

I would expect that as the Charms professor, Flitwick should know EXACTLY how a Fidelius Charm should work.

As I recall, the epic tale of the Potters had almost become folklore by the time Harry arrived at Hogwarts.

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Mattew Bates - Apr 10, 2006 12:51 pm (#336 of 594)

Haymoni, I'm sure Flitwick knows how the charm can work. Depending on what (or who) was charmed, I have no doubt that the charm could work as described. But Flitwick has never been mentioned as a member of the Order, and not even all of the Order members knew all the details of the Potters' Fidelius - so I am sure that Flitwick was not in that particular loop at the time. We also know that not everything that was "common knowledge" about the Potters' Fidelus has panned out as fact.

Besides, I don't think that Voldemort was searching the village of Godric's Hollow for years, either. He had been exaggerating only moments before, so I take that quote with a grain of salt.

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Deb Zawacki - Apr 10, 2006 4:24 pm (#337 of 594)

I'm not sure--was Flitwick mentioned as being in the OOP--not that it matters exactly--the allegiance of most of the profs has not been disclosed-- but I would say that most good wizards back in the day had secret keepers to protect them from the DE as much as possible.

Look at me talking like its real (HAHA)

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haymoni - Apr 11, 2006 4:45 am (#338 of 594)

Not real????

Flitwick may not have known all the details - who was the Secret Keeper, where they were exactly - but I think he knows that someone's location stays a secret and that even if you happened by chance to stumble on the right place, you still wouldn't see anything.

He knows the NATURE of the charm.

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Potter Ace - Jun 8, 2006 8:40 am (#339 of 594)

All,

HH11 (sorry can't spell it) posted this message on the HP thread and I thought it might belong here:

Okay, let's try to work through this. The 'stopper in death' phrase has stuck with too many readers for it not to have resounding significance.

Well, it does seem as though Snape knew Big V had targeted all three Potters and it is possible that there was enough time for DD to send Snape to invoke some form of potions protection. If he and Lily were classmates, she would most likely trust him (James would have to be out of the way, though, because he certainly would not). Snape would be taking quite a chance at getting caught by Big V (or his spies) with the Potters trying to help. That would explain DD's vouching for Snape at the trial in the Pensieve.

Has the topic of DD sending Snape to GH before LV arrived been discussed here before? I think the idea has some merit. It would explain better why DD trust Snape so much and assuming that Snape had a crush or was in love with Lilly, it would explain his hatred for Harry.

Does this thought belong here or on the Snape thread?

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TheSaint - Jun 8, 2006 3:50 pm (#340 of 594)

There is a thread called something like..Who else was at Godric's Hollow? ... Snape's presence is one of the many topics.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jun 8, 2006 9:44 pm (#341 of 594)

I have heard since forever, that Snape was at Godric's Hollow on that night. I cannot see Lord Voldermort taking Snape with him (Wormtaill...perhaps)

Voldy is solitary. He works by stealth, he doesn't like or want company. So unless he was taking Snape there to do a particular task, I cannot see Snape being accompanying Voldemort.

Dumbledore sending him there to spy on LV, or maybe be a warning, or act as a trip device to LV's presence, or a guard to the Potter's so that he could warn DD as soon as LV is detected... that sees more plausible.

I don't believe that Snape was at Godric's to witness that event. But that is just MHO (my humble opinion).

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Choices - Jun 9, 2006 8:14 am (#342 of 594)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 9:14 am

I don't think anyone was with Voldemort either. If he did intend to make a Horcrux with Harry's death, then I believe he would have been even more secretive than usual.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 9, 2006 9:57 am (#343 of 594)

Choices and Mrs. Sirius, if you are referring to the snippet of my post from Potter Ace, let me clarify.

If DD sent Snape there to set up some form of protection for Harry, I should think he'd do so with stealth. Big V would be the last person they would want to learn of this. It would be a risk for Snape to be caught doing so which would explain why DD trusted him. (If he succeeded in his mission, then therein lies the proof that Snape was loyal to DD.)

If, in fact Harry survived because of something Snape helped Lily do to protect Harry, it would also explain his disdain for Harry having had to choose his protection over Lily's. If DD knows this entire story, it would serve as a plausible explanation as to why he trusts Snape and what he did at 'great risk to himself' as DD pointed out in the Pensieve hearing. To me, the 'remorse' story DD gave seems to be missing links. I'm just trying to fill in the gaps - which came about, BTW, as a result of trying to make TheSaint's idea work from the HP Thread.

We know:

1. Snape knew Big V targeted the Potters before Big V arrived there. 2. DD trusts Snape and DD is an intelligent man. 3. DD knew the entire prophecy and knew Big V only knew part of it. 4. DD knew Harry needed to be protected.

This idea seems to complement the above four facts.

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Soul Search - Jun 10, 2006 5:34 am (#344 of 594)

That "House almost destroyed" has always bothered me. From what we know, the only powerful spell being cast was Voldemort's AK. We know that a missed AK can break a statue, but destroy a whole house? And, the AK was supposed to have rebounded and killed Voldemort's body. What destroyed the house?

We saw in GoF that Voldemort likes an audience for a big killing. He wouldn't go to Godric's Hollow alone; he would take an audience. We also know that the Order and Dumbledore have been protecting Harry. It would be within the relm of what we know for Dumbledore to have had watchers and guards on Godric's Hollow. If nothing else, Voldemort would have wanted some death eaters around so he could AK Harry, and make his horcrux, undisturbed.

So, Voldemort shows up with a death eater crew. An Order watcher calls out the Order. A big fight ensues.

Voldemort goes into the house alone (horcrux secret,) but the fight outside destroys the house.

One thing I can't quite reconcile is Bellatrix et al. going after the Longbottoms looking for Voldemort. That has never made sense. Were the Longbottoms at Godric's Hollow? They were in the Order (Moody's picture.) But, why would the Longbottoms know anything about Voldemort? Didn't the other death eaters know Voldemort was dead? Possible.

I do wonder why none of the Order Harry has met have mentioned that they were at Godric's Hollow. Is this what Harry is going to discover at Godric's Hollow when he visits?

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Choices - Jun 10, 2006 9:37 am (#345 of 594)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 10:38 am

On several occasions we have seen the effects of an AK, but we have not seen the effects of an AK that encounters the protection that Lily put on Harry by her sacrifice - except once, at Godric's Hollow. A lethal spell that hits head-on with old magic like that could cause quite a burst of magical energy - perhaps enough to cause major damage to surrounding structures. I think that is what caused the house to be in "ruins" and Voldemort's body dead.

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journeymom - Jun 11, 2006 2:25 pm (#346 of 594)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 3:26 pm

I've always assumed (dangerous, that) that Voldemort's body disappeared/disintegrated when his AK rebounded on him and he was turned into Vapormort. But I see now no one would know it was him who did the deed. His body must have been there, along with Lily's. So what did they do with his body?

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Pinky Prime - Jun 11, 2006 4:25 pm (#347 of 594)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 5:36 pm

OOOOh! Good Point Journeymom!

That may be the key to Voldemort's vulnerability. If his body was destroyed (Vaporized?) because of the rebounded curse, then he would try not to let that happen again. That may be why he needed a fresh infusion of blood from his most mortal enemy. He may also have seen a two-fold use of Harry's blood. Voldemort has already experimented with his body so much that he weakened it just like he did with the pieces of soul. His soul is even tainted with that Unicorn blood and Snake venom, dehumanizing him.

On the same line of thinking.

What if Harry gave the Voldemort a piece of HIS soul by accident and not the other way around and in the transfer Harry got some of Voldemorts powers in return? Hmmmmmmmmm! Or will that happen in book #7.

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Choices - Jun 11, 2006 4:35 pm (#348 of 594)

I have always wondered, if Voldermort did have someone with him at Godric's Hollow (Wormtail), did that person get his body and do like Barty Crouch, Jr. did when he killed his father (transfigured it into a bone and hid it in the soft dirt in front of Hagrid's hut). Maybe Wormtail or whoever, took Voldemort's body and transfigured it into something and buried it somewhere. Or the body could have simply been destroyed - blown to bits. Hope we find out what actually happened to it in book 7.

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Solitaire - Jun 11, 2006 4:36 pm (#349 of 594)

I don't think his body could have survived the rebounded curse. Isn't that why the Longbottoms were tortured--because the DEs thought they had knowledge of Voldemort's whereabouts? If Voldemort's dead body had been found, I suspect the Ministry would have made that known. I believe the lack of a body is what made Dumbledore know that Voldemort was gone ... but not truly dead.

Solitaire

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Mrs. Sirius - Jun 11, 2006 10:26 pm (#350 of 594)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 11:27 pm

The Avara Kadavara spell rebounding off of Lily's love protection and hitting the evil-Horcrux-mutilated soul left in the body of Lord Voldemort is what I figured caused the violent explosion. A powerful spell, ricocheting and then hitting a force as powerful and more evil becomes far more negatively powerful.

I think this is a little bit like that brain-busting theory that Slughorn introduces about the sum of the part of an antidote for a powerful poison. I think it means that when put together, powerful ingredients become more powerful than the sum of their separate parts measured individually.

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Soul Search - Jun 12, 2006 5:15 am (#351 of 594)

In GoF, Voldemort had his own wand, brought to him by Wormtail. We have never learned how this came about, but the easiest explanation is that Wormtail was at Godric's Hollow, and retrieved the wand after Voldemort was killed.

Wormtail at Godric's Hollow makes some sense, since he had to reveal its "secret" to Voldemort.

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Pinky Prime - Jun 12, 2006 6:16 am (#352 of 594)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 7:24 am

It's still misty to me Soul Search. I thought WT had business with Sirius on the same night. Doesn't seem that he'd risk any of Voldemort's valuables being lost if he had the wand in the first place.

WT apparently knew LV might still be alive so he may have wanted to have something to return to his master just in case. WT may even have witnessed other AK-ed victims by LV. Meaning, WT may know how the Horcrux spell works.

I feel only one or two DE's knew what he was about and he picked WT to accompany him because LV may have felt he would be least likely to turn on him. Not just because he knew and could tell where the Potters were but because LV can sense fear in people as the worlds most accomplished Legillemence. WT could have very well told Voldemort where the Potters were and that would have been the end of that.

However, where did WT go? It was mentioned that WT led LV to the Potters House but it doesn't say that he went in with him. If WT did wait for Voldemort and afterwards stashed the(wand(s)before he staged his own death (with his wand?, that would mean that he stashed the wands at Godric’s Hollow. Meaning when he found Vapormort one of the first things they did when they got back to England was to retrieve his stashed item(s). LV said in GoF that in order to cast the spells necessary for a rudimentary form he needed his wand. As WT didn't even have his own wand when they first met it is my guess that he used Bertha Jorkin's wand until WT could find both of theirs at Godric's Hollow. That's just like a pack rat!

They may have visited the place at least twice (together) and might have taken more than stashed wands.

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haymoni - Jun 12, 2006 7:00 am (#353 of 594)

If your clothes stay with you when you transform as an animagus, then I'm guessing that anything you are wearing - like jewelry or eye glasses - transforms also. It would be possible then, that anything you are HOLDING, i.e. a wand, also transforms.

That takes care of Wormtail's wand.

If Wormtail had been at Godric's Hollow when Voldy became Vapormort, I would think we would have heard some comment from Voldy at the graveyard about how Wormtail had abandoned him at his hour of need.

If Voldy knew where his wand was, he could use Wormtail's wand to "Accio" it, once Wormtail had followed his instructions to give him the Babymort body.

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TheSaint - Jun 12, 2006 9:31 am (#354 of 594)

There is an unsubstantiated fan report, that says Jo told him (the fan) that Peter took the wand at hid it. (From Edinburgh, book release) I would think that Peter did not know Volde was alive, rather he took the wand for himself. Trophy of some sort.

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Choices - Jun 12, 2006 9:33 am (#355 of 594)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 10:45 am

I agree Haymoni - when you transform into your animagus form, everything you are wearing or have on your person transforms with you. So, Wormtail could have had his wand and Voldemort's and it would have remained with him when he transformed.

But, you made me wonder.....if Wormtail was at Godric's Hollow with Voldemort when Voldemort lost his body and his soul flew off, why did his soul not inhabit Wormtail - he was right there, handy. Why did it choose to fly off to a forest in Romania? Hmmmm.....? Maybe that says that no one was there with Voldemort.

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haymoni - Jun 12, 2006 10:09 am (#356 of 594)

It had never happened before. "Even I could not have forseen..."

I'm guessing that if there WAS someone there, that person ran for it.

Voldy was Vapormort - he did say it was painful, right? By the time he realized what he had become, his company had fled.

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Solitaire - Jun 12, 2006 11:42 am (#357 of 594)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 12:44 pm

By the time he realized what he had become, his company had fled . .

This makes sense. Voldemort was in shock, most likely, as he had certainly not expected what happened. If Wormtail was outside, waiting in the bushes, I suspect he'd have transformed and scampered away--or hidden--until what was left of Voldemort had fled the scene. He then might have sneaked back and snatched the wand before Hagrid arrived. In fact, if he were skulking (unseen, of course) around the premises when Sirius arrived, that could have been when he formed his plan to frame Sirius for the murders and disappear.

I also agree with whoever said Wormtail may have kept the wand as a trophy. He could always claim he was keeping it for Voldemort if and when he returned.

Solitaire

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TheSaint - Jun 12, 2006 1:11 pm (#358 of 594)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 2:13 pm

In fact, if he were skulking (unseen, of course) around the premises when Sirius arrived, that could have been when he formed his plan to frame Sirius for the murderers and disappear.

I tend to think that his framing of Sirius was a spur of the moment decision, he had no way of knowing that Sirius would catch up to him later on. My understanding is that Sirius had him cornered.

My only reservation is his years and years of subterfuge when it came to his magical abilities. Why would a young man hide these skills from his supposed 'best friends'? Has he been conspiring since childhood? Something is not right.

Pettigrew "was a better wizard [and better at keeping secrets] than they knew." [Read the whole quote from the Leaky Cauldron, 2005]

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haymoni - Jun 12, 2006 1:47 pm (#359 of 594)

They may have thought him beneath them growing up, not realizing that he was learning more as he came into his own - sort of like Neville.

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Solitaire - Jun 13, 2006 6:24 pm (#360 of 594)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 8:17 pm

Saint, is that quote from Jo?
edit: Never mind ... I found it and read it in context. Thanks.

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Soul Search - Jun 29, 2006 4:39 pm (#361 of 594)

In GoF, when everyone is back in the tent, Mr. Weasley is explaining the dark mark, and says:

“... and it hasn't been seen in thirteen years.”

Godric's Hollow occurred thirteen years before that. Was the dark mark set over Godric's Hollow?

Did Voldemort set it before he went into the house, or did someone else?

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Angie - Jul 12, 2006 4:36 am (#362 of 594)

Well I don't think Arthur was referring directly to events at Godric's hollow, just that LV’s reign of terror ended thirteen years ago (at Godric's Hollow) so the mark had not been seen since that era not that particular night.

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Honour - Jul 18, 2006 1:50 pm (#363 of 594)

I've been wandering about the vanishing cabinets. Do you think this could have been the means by which Dumbledore kept in touch with James and Lily? I mean they wouldn't need to apparate into Hogwarts just walk through, under the invisibility cloak, maybe this is how it was left in DD's care.

But then how did the other one end up at Borgin and Burkes? Someone had to have sold it? But who? Worm tail? Whoever took care of the Potters estate? Petunia? Mundungus?

This may explain how Hagrid got to Godric’s Hollow so quickly. Then why did he use Sirius' bike to transport him and Harry? Just thinking out loud folks, please excuse my rambling ...

What do all think?

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Miss Amanda - Jul 18, 2006 5:06 pm (#364 of 594)

Hagrid did not get to Godric’s Hollow quickly, in my opinion. It took him more than a day, did it not?

Or is this one of those times when the timeline is messy?

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Steve Newton - Jul 18, 2006 5:31 pm (#365 of 594)

I don't think that we know for sure. He showed up at Privet Drive a day later. I have never heard where he and Harry were in the intervening 24 hours.

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Choices - Jul 19, 2006 8:00 am (#366 of 594)

I think he got there fairly quickly - he told Dumbledore that he got Harry out before the Muggles started swarming around the ruined house. If there was an explosion of sorts and the house turned into ruins, I would guess that the villagers came running pretty quickly to see what happened. We know Hagrid got Harry out and then turned up at 4 Privet Drive about 24 hours later.

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haymoni - Jul 19, 2006 8:44 am (#367 of 594)
Edited Jul 19, 2006 9:57 am

I hope he wasn't trying to feed Harry rock cakes or anything!

He may have taken him to St. Mungo's or to Madame Pomfrey.

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Choices - Jul 19, 2006 8:52 am (#368 of 594)

I agree Haymoni - and since I get the impression that Dumbledore wanted Harry's whereabouts kept secret, I think Madame Pomfrey may have been the safest bet. Harry did have quite a gash on his forehead and it needed tending to before he was placed with the Dursleys.

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Solitaire - Jul 19, 2006 5:24 pm (#369 of 594)

I agree with Choices that Hagrid got Harry out pretty quickly. Where they were for those 24 hours seems to be a mystery. I hope someone asks it at the NY reading. If Jo refuses to answer, then I think we can deduce that it is important and will probably be explained in Book 7. If it is unimportant, then I think she will answer it if asked ... if that makes any sense.

Solitaire

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journeymom - Jul 20, 2006 8:44 am (#370 of 594)

Ah, if she refuses to answer could that mean that it was simply an oversight on her part?

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Choices - Jul 20, 2006 10:05 am (#371 of 594)

The very idea of JKR being guilty of an oversight or getting confused is just impossible for me to even consider. She is phenomenal the way she keeps this huge amount of information all together and organized and presents it in such an entertaining way. Characters and plots and sub-plots and sub-sub-plots - so many details to remember and keep straight - she constantly amazes me.

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haymoni - Jul 20, 2006 10:08 am (#372 of 594)

I don't know how she keeps her silence.

I would have messed up long ago.

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Deb Zawacki - Aug 3, 2006 1:42 pm (#373 of 594)

Recall what happened when Quirrell touched Harry at the end of SS--at least in the movie he turned to dust-- did they describe it anywhere else?

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Steve Newton - Aug 4, 2006 5:04 am (#374 of 594)
Edited Aug 4, 2006 7:28 am

As I recall it, in the book the touch burns. I could be wrong.

edit: The Lexicon chapter summary doesn't clear up the issue.

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haymoni - Aug 4, 2006 6:13 am (#375 of 594)

I just remember red and some blisters I think.

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Choices - Aug 4, 2006 11:59 am (#376 of 594)

Quirrell looking at his palms.....

....Harry could see they looked burned, raw, red, and shiny.

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Mattew Bates - Sep 13, 2006 9:38 pm (#377 of 594)

OK, I have an odd idea about how Dumbledore came to know what happened at the Godric's Hollow scene. Like many, I can see James feeling his invisibility cloak would be put to better use by the order than sitting around unused at a Fidelus protected house, so Dumbledore has the cloak. The worst still happens, and the Potters are killed, Harry survives, Vapormort happens. Even early on, Dumbledore understands that knowing the circumstances surrounding these events are of extreme importance, so he uses a time-turner to go back, hides both with invisibility magic and the cloak (Belt & suspenders, why not? Or maybe his invisibility magic has time limitations), and simply observes the events unfolding, refraining from interfering only because he is in the midst of time travel.

Cross-posted here and at the Why did Dumbledore have James's cloak? thread.

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Derek Robertson - Sep 18, 2006 3:32 am (#378 of 594)

Harry says in HBP that he plans to visit Godric’s Hollow. Ron and Hermione plan on coming with him also, but how will they manage to visit the site of his parents destroyed house (assuming it's still there) if they have never had the secret keeper (Peter Pettigrew) tell them where it is?

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Choices - Sep 18, 2006 10:43 am (#379 of 594)

Derek, it is thought that the secret must have died with the Potter's or with the destruction of the house. They will have no trouble finding the house now.

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Meoshimo - Sep 18, 2006 5:43 pm (#380 of 594)

He said he wanted to visit their graves, not their home.

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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 18, 2006 7:31 pm (#381 of 594)
Edited Sep 18, 2006 8:50 pm

On her website JK spells out that the secret dies with the secret keeper. I will try find the link and post that.

By the way, Peter Pettigrew owes Harry a life debt.

Edit: Here is the quote;

“What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?”

“I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is what you want to know!

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.”

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S.E. Jones - Sep 18, 2006 10:21 pm (#382 of 594)

Mrs. Sirius, but Peter (the secret-keeper) didn't die. So, then what happens when the secret no longer has anything to refer to (like if the secret is the location of the Potters' house and the house blows up)? It would seem that the Muggles in the neighborhood could see the house as Hagrid took Harry away before they started swarming around, which means that the charm must've been broken and as Peter's still alive, it could well be that it's because the house is no longer actually there.

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Hoot Owl - Sep 18, 2006 10:27 pm (#383 of 594)
Edited Sep 18, 2006 11:30 pm

I have noticed that no one, in the books, ever gives an exact location for the house in Godric's Hollow. They usually refer to the village or call it the Potters house, never say #7 Gryffindor Lane or whatever. Isn't that like referring to #12 Grimmauld Place as London or the Black's house.

Perhaps the Fidelius Charm is still in effect? Does that make any sense?

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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2006 12:18 am (#384 of 594)

If it were still in effect, why would there have been Muggles swarming around? How could they have found the house?

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haymoni - Sep 19, 2006 5:07 am (#385 of 594)

I think they could find the house - just not the Potters.

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Hoot Owl - Sep 19, 2006 10:47 am (#386 of 594)

Those are good points. I just find it odd that they only use the name of the village not the address of the house. Maybe it means something, but what? Of course it could be so famous that everyone just knows. Few Americans say 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, mostly we say the White House.

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juliebug - Sep 19, 2006 11:15 am (#387 of 594)

Another good point Hoot Owl. It's a puzzler!

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Derek Robertson - Sep 19, 2006 11:44 am (#388 of 594)

Thanks S.E. Jones that's what I meant.

As for Harry saying he's visiting his parents’ graves at Godric’s Hollow (who ever told him they were buried there?) it's a dead cert if he's going there he'll visit the site/ruins of his family home.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2006 12:13 pm (#389 of 594)
Edited Sep 19, 2006 1:13 pm

haymoni, I know you've probably read them, but someone posted some great quotes from JKR that make it look like the charm was definitely on the house, not on the Potters, in the "Why did Dumbledore have James's cloak" thread.

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haymoni - Sep 19, 2006 12:14 pm (#390 of 594)

Ah...a reason to go back and re-read!

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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2006 12:24 pm (#391 of 594)

Okay, here's a question that I almost asked on the aforementioned thread, but since it doesn't have anything to do with James's cloak and it does have to do with James's house, I'm going to ask it here instead.

If you assume that a portrait was responsible for informing Dumbledore about what happened that night at Godric's Hollow and Harry goes back to the ruin at the beginning of Book 7, would it be plausible for him to find the portrait among the rubble of the house? We don't really know how destroyed the house was (if it was completely leveled or if just one wall had collapsed) and it seems portraits can take quite a lot of damage assuming the subject isn't in the frame at the time (the Fat Lady was able to survive Sirius shredding her picture by escaping to another portrait), so could there still be a witness sitting in the Potters' old house?

Also, I've been thinking about whether someone would've rebuilt the house and, if the house and land did belong to James and Harry inherited it no one could've rebuilt the house. It would've just had to sit there until the heir was old enough to do something with it....

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juliebug - Sep 19, 2006 12:48 pm (#392 of 594)

I am really curious about what Harry will find in Godric's Hollow. I agree that a portrait could survive a house being completely blow to bits, especially after reading about the portrait in the Prime Minister's office in Half Blood Prince. I still have trouble believing a portrait was there in the first place. That same person's portrait would have to be somewhere else for it to be useful at all and I think we'd have heard about this information before now.

I do like the idea of the land waiting there, for the return of its rightful owner. Then Harry could one day build a nice place to live on it and be happy ever after!

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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2006 1:19 pm (#393 of 594)

I don't know why we would've heard about it before now. I mean, if it weren't for Dumbledore needing to ask Phineas to carry a message to the Black house for him, in front of Harry, Harry wouldn't have known it was the same picture. Up until OP, we didn't actually know the pictures in Dumbledore's office did anything except sleep.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 19, 2006 1:41 pm (#394 of 594)
Edited Sep 19, 2006 3:03 pm

A few months ago I posted a theory that the reason Dumbledore and Hagrid knew of the location of Godric's Hollow was for the following reasons:

Back in 1999 during the course of an interview the following question was raised.

Q: “And I'm going to ask one other question which you'll say isn't clever at all. The significance of the place where Harry and his parents lived, the first name –“ A: “Godric Gryffindor. Very good, you're a bit good you are, aren't you.”

1. If one proceeds that the name of the village and the house where Potters lived are connected in some way is it possible that House contained a portrait of Godric Gryffindor that communicated with one at Hogwarts.

2. Could the House at Godric's Hollow have been the ancestral home of Albus and Aberforth Dumbledore?

3. Could the House at Godric's Hollow have been the original headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix?


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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2006 1:46 pm (#395 of 594)

Nathan, I could almost see #1, but it's always been described as "the Potters' house" or "your parents' house" when someone is speaking to Harry, which makes me think that James and Lily actually owned it. Still, I could see Dumbledore giving or selling it to them, so I suppose that's possible.

As for #2, if it was the original headquarters of the Order it probably would've already had a Fidelius Charm on it, thus no need to do another one or to completely relocate the whole Order versus only one family. I mean, it would've been easier to move James, Lily and Harry than to move the entire Order to another base of operations......

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juliebug - Sep 19, 2006 1:55 pm (#396 of 594)

S E Jones "I don't know why we would've heard about it (a portrait's info) before now"

I was under the impression toward the end of HBP that Dumbledore knew his end was drawing near and he was laying all the cards out on the table for Harry. Something as important as an eyewitness to his parents' murders seems like the important kind of information he'd want Harry to know before he died.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 19, 2006 1:57 pm (#397 of 594)

S.E., the need to relocate the Order could have resulted from condition of the house after the destruction of the house and as for the Fidelus Charm it is possible that forces which resulted in the condition of the house negated the effect of the charm.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2006 1:59 pm (#398 of 594)
Edited Sep 19, 2006 3:01 pm

juliebug --Something as important as an eyewitness to his parents' murders seems like the important kind of information he'd want Harry to know before he died.—

Unless that info doesn't help defeat Voldemort. It may be important without answering how Voldemort needs to be destroyed. Dumbledore was only really providing info about the latter. He also didn't feel the need to tell Harry that it was Snape who overheard the prophecy or why he trusted Snape so much. You'd think those things would be important too, especially since Dumbledore seemed to want Harry to respect Snape and trust him, but he never bothered to give Harry that information either.

EDIT: Nathan, what I meant was if the Potters' house was serving as the Order's HQ prior to them going into hiding, why would they remove the Order and redo the Fidelius Charm when they could've just moved the Potters to a safe house.

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Soul Search - Sep 19, 2006 2:02 pm (#399 of 594)
Edited Sep 19, 2006 3:10 pm

I am still pursuing the "Snape was at Godric's Hollow (under the cloak) and did something 'crucial' related to Harry" concept. Since I seem to run into canon conflicts, I thought I would explore one thing at a time.

Harry's Scar is a puzzle. When Harry is dropped off at the Dursleys, it is described as:

... a curiously shaped cut, like a bolt of lightning.

All later mentions are of a "scar."

We also have the prophecy's "mark him as his equal" text.

We have (mostly) accepted that Harry got the scar from Voldemort's backfiring AK and/or Lily's protection spell.

I have always thought the scar didn't quite fit the "mark him as his equal" claim. "Mark him" seems an action, whereas Harry is supposed to have received the scar as a byproduct of other spells, and without any other harm to him.

We also know that Voldemort intended to make a horcrux with Harry's murder.

My thought is that Voldemort did mark Harry, with a cut that was a stylized letter "S," not a lightning bolt. The "S," of course, was for Slytherin.

Okay for now. Snape will come into it later.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2006 2:05 pm (#400 of 594)
Edited Sep 19, 2006 7:53 pm

Soul Search, we also have a "Was Snape at Godric's Hollow" thread, if you're interested.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 19, 2006 2:06 pm (#401 of 594)
Edited Sep 19, 2006 3:11 pm

S.E., my thought is that they did not remove the first Fidelius Charm but, cast a second over the place using Peter as the Secret Keeper.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2006 2:08 pm (#402 of 594)

Why would they do that? I mean, if there already was a Fidelius Charm, Dumbledore was probably the Secret Keeper. If it was the Order HQ, and they knew someone in the Order was a spy reporting to Voldemort, why would they want to keep the entire Order around the Potters. Wouldn't it have been safer and easier to simply remove the Potters to a second location and perfrom the Charm there?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 19, 2006 2:13 pm (#403 of 594)
Edited Sep 19, 2006 3:19 pm

Peter Pettigrew could not name the location of the Headquarters of the Order because Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper but, he could name the location of the Potters. The confrontation ensues and the house is almost destroyed. The reports of the destruction at Godric's Hollow reach Dumbledore. He learns the house at Godric's Hollow has been attacked and partially destroyed. Dumbledore knows that he has not revealed the location of headquarters to Voldemort, and that there must have been another Fidelius Charm cast over the place concealing another secret.

It seems plausible to me given that in Order of the Phoenix Sirius was hiding in his home which also doubled as the Headquarters for the Order.

Additionally it explains how Dumbledore, Sirius and Hagrid knew where to find the Potters.

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juliebug - Sep 19, 2006 2:13 pm (#404 of 594)

But as Hagrid once said, that ain't no ordinary cut on Harry's head. Dumbledore has specially called it a curse scar and said it isn’t something he could remove if he tried. I've been under the impression that scar was an accident and Voldemort didn't know it was there until he saw Harry in the graveyard and realized he could use it as a connector between Harry and himself. Through it he started intentionally making Harry feel pain, then later as a fast track to Harry's thoughts.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2006 2:47 pm (#405 of 594)

Yes, but Nathan, Voldemort wasn't after Sirius, a grown man (as opposed to baby Harry) directly, nor were they worried about having a spy in the Order the second time around. It just doesn't make any sense that a couple trying to protect their infant son would hide him among the people being accused of betraying them to Voldemort.

As for Dumbledore and Sirius knowing their location, I'm sure James would've insisted on them knowing, just in case something went wrong. As for Hagrid, he might've known where James and Lily lived prior to the Fidelius Charm being placed on the house (since we don't know what happens to that sort of knowledge after a Fidelius charm enters the picture) and could've found the house once more once the charm was broken, which seems to have happened when the house was practically destroyed.

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Soul Search - Sep 20, 2006 4:16 pm (#406 of 594)

Still exploring Godric's Hollow for how Dumbledore and the cloak can fit. I am trying to develop a plausible scenario that fits canon, as stated, without any reinterpretation of canon statements. This may take a few posts. See #399 for a start. Looking for any help along these lines.

There are a lot of good posts in this and other topics. The "Was Snape at Godric's Hollow" has some good related ideas. In spite of this, I haven't seen a good resolution of some of the canon uncertainties related to the events of, and shortly after, Godric's Hollow.

Among "shortly after" uncertainties are:

Q: How Dumbledore knew of the events at Godric's Hollow, especially soon enough to send Hagrid to get Harry?

A: Either Dumbledore was at Godric's Hollow or someone who was there immediately told Dumbledore. Dumbledore being at Godric's Hollow brings up too many other problems, like why didn't he prevent the events, so I am going to assume someone else was there and told Dumbledore.

Q: For that matter, how did the Wizarding world know that something had happened? In conversations heard by Vernon the morning after, others knew that Voldemort was gone/dead, James and Lily had been killed, and that Harry had "lived," surviving Voldemort's attempt to kill him.

A: We have other canon of Hagrid talking a bit out of turn in Hogsmeade. (PoA, "The Marauder's Map" for one.) Best scenario here is that Hagrid spread the news. This implies he took Harry back to Hogwarts, then went to Hogsmeade.

Q: How Hagrid could see Harry (or the house, depending how the Fidelus Charm is interpreted?)

A: I note from PoA, "The Marauder's Map" that Hagrid first had Harry, then Sirius showed up. So, Hagrid had to have been able to see Harry. Hagrid had to be in on the secret, but didn't know that Wormtail was the secret keeper. (This might still need some work.)

Q: Why did Dumbledore send Hagrid, rather than going there himself? After all, Dumbledore knew Harry could have been the target of the prophecy and was at risk.

A: Either or both of a couple of ideas. Hagrid was in on the secret, but Dumbledore was not. Dumbledore had a lot to do to prepare for Harry's future, including protecting Harry at the Dursleys.

Summarizing for later work:

1. Someone else was at Godric's Hollow, who told Dumbledore of events.

2. Hagrid was in on the Potter's Fidelus Charm.

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Choices - Sep 20, 2006 6:32 pm (#407 of 594)
Edited Sep 20, 2006 7:34 pm

Soul Search - "Dumbledore being at Godric's Hollow brings up too many other problems, like why didn't he prevent the events . . ."

This is hard to express without getting into that forbidden subject (religion), but I think sometimes there are things that just have to happen for the sake of all mankind. Certain things had to happen in Harry's life for him to reach the point he has reached in HBP - certain sacrifices had to take place for him to advance and become "the chosen one". Dumbledore could perhaps have changed the course of events, but then things would not work out for the good of all. Sometimes bad things have to happen for good to be able to triumph.

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Soul Search - Sep 21, 2006 6:56 am (#408 of 594)

Choices,

While I consider Dumbledore at Godric's Hollow one possibility to explain his knowledge of events, it isn't the simplest solution. I am working up to a scenario that explains events within known canon and in the simplest terms (KISS, "Keep It Simple, Stupid.) We could also entertain that he was there using a time-turner, where he couldn't change events, but that gets complicated, as well.

I also asked myself "Why would Hagrid be in on the secret?" Hagrid was in the order. Dumbledore trusts him implicitly. Canon clearly shows some sort of relationship between Hagrid and Harry/The Potters: he retrieved Harry, brought him to #4 Privet Drive, and fetched him from the Hut-on-the-Rock.

Dumbledore knew that Harry was important. He had Harry watched and guarded his whole life. Dumbledore suggested the Potters go into hiding. It isn't too much of a stretch to assume Dumbledore arranged for watching and guarding Harry before Godric's Hollow. Hagrid would have been one of the guards, at times. Hagrid wasn't on duty during the night of Godric's Hollow, however. Others were.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 21, 2006 8:36 am (#409 of 594)

Pettigrew could have been one of those on watch. How convenient that would be for Big V.

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Sconie Girl - Sep 22, 2006 6:17 am (#410 of 594)

I was under the impression from the explanation from Flitwick about the charm that it was placed on the Potter themselves, not their home. Doesn't he even say you could come to the home and look in the window and still not see them. (paraphrase...books are at home) How could you even find the house to look it if it was the "thing" that was hidden.

I think this also explains why there were several people who knew where the Potters were hiding...Dumbledore, Hagrid, & Siruis. They had prior knowledge of their location. So after the charm was done they were unable to tell people the location, but they didn't lose their prior knowledge.

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Soul Search - Sep 22, 2006 6:56 am (#411 of 594)

Sconie Girl,

I, too, interpret the Potter's Fidelus Charm as Flitwick described it in PoA. The Potters were hidden and invisible to any that did not know the secret. The house probably had some protections, but could be seen by anyone.

The question, however, becomes how Hagrid could see baby Harry to fetch him? Either Hagrid knew the secret (simplest explanation) or there is more going on than we can know (but, we can range far and wide.)

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S.E. Jones - Sep 22, 2006 10:15 am (#412 of 594)
Edited Sep 22, 2006 11:23 am

Wouldn't another possible explanation be that the secret was on the house and the charm broken when part of the house caved in after the rebounded AK? That doesn't leave any loose ends as to how Hagrid knew or how he could find Harry. If Hagrid knew where the Potters' lived prior to the charm, even if he couldn't see the house because it was under the charm, he might still know where to go. Or, he might remember again once the charm was broken, assuming the charm makes you forget (which I don't think it does).

Actually, from other phrasing by JKR on her site, it seems the secret was the Potters' location. Under the FAQ where she was asked 'What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?' she says, "In other words, a secret (e.g., the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information." Now, all this could've just been an example (like what Flitwick says could've just been an example) but it makes it sound like the charm was on the house, not them specifically.

What Flitwick actually says is, "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where James and Lily were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" He never says that you could see the window and room, but not the Potters - simply that you couldn't even find them if your nose was up against the window.

Now, in a thread probably long since munched, some of my fellow forumers and I came up with the idea that, when the Fidelius Charm is placed on something it sorta removes or blocks that sensory information from you being aware of it. Your brain picks up everything around you (what's being said, what people are doing, etc.) but it then filters out what isn't needed so you can focus on one thing. (This is also how we figured the pensieve worked to get such accurate information, since the senses and emotions don't cross until later in the mental pathways, i.e. the pensieve is a record of all your sensory input.) The Fidelius Charm could simply block the sensory part of your brain that notices the building. (A long, drawn out explanation, I know, but like I said we had a whole thread about it.)

Anyway, the claim was that if something was under the Fidelius Charm, it didn't exist to you (like how Muggles walked past the Leaky Cauldron looking from one store on one side to the other store on the other side without even noticing the pub in the middle), so even if you walked up to the house and had your nose pressed against the glass, you wouldn't know it. You'd think you were just standing there or that your nose was pressed up against the window of a house next to it. The people inside would see you, but you wouldn't see them (or the window, or the room beyond). Anyhoo, just thought I'd throw out another possible explanation for how the Charm works and what Flitwick says. I wish I could remember where we actually talked about it and what happened to that thread. It was a really good one, we used all the examples of the Fidelius charm up through OP along with examples of other magic (like Unplottable charms and Muggle-detering charms) to come up with how the charm worked.....

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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 22, 2006 9:44 pm (#413 of 594)
Edited Sep 22, 2006 10:45 pm

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

SE I am a bit confused by your explanation. Peter isn’t dead but while he is alive it is a secret until he reveals the secret, no? The above makes me think that even after Peter's death the house would remain secret to anyone who did not already know the information. So Hagrid would not have been able to go in the house and find Harry had he not already known the secret. Sirius said they switched at the last moment so no one knew Peter was promise keeper.

(I wrote this in response to your post of a few days ago before above post.)

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S.E. Jones - Sep 22, 2006 11:37 pm (#414 of 594)

The part you quoted, Mrs. Sirius, was me quoting JKR when she was asked 'What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?' -- her answer, not mine. The part I was trying to point out was that her example of a secret is the Potters' location, not the Potters' themselves, which led, along with my understanding of the Fidelius and what Flitwick said, that the charm was on the house, not the people. That's all I was trying to say. Her response was to a question about what happens if the Secret-Keeper dies, but doesn't include the multiple ways the charm could be broken. We know Peter isn't dead but the Muggles in the villiage were able to see the house (Hagrid comments on getting Harry out before the muggles came around) so the charm must've been broken by the house breaking.... See what I mean?

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HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 23, 2006 5:30 am (#415 of 594)

If the secret keeper was to keep the location of James and Lily a secret and they were killed, wouldn't their "new location" be what could not be revealed?

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Pamzter - Sep 23, 2006 7:05 am (#416 of 594)

Was the charm on James and Lily and not on Harry? Is there anything in the books that specifically includes Harry's name in those being protected? (Other than "the Potters" generically)

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HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 23, 2006 9:38 am (#417 of 594)

My point is that wherever they are, it is their location, and if the directions to their location changes (i.e., they flee to a different place), then so do the specifics of the secret being kept.

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shadzar - Sep 23, 2006 10:56 am (#418 of 594)
Edited Sep 23, 2006 11:56 am

Godric Hollow, House Elves, and James’ Cloak

Ok while being completely confused about the “Dumbledore having James’ cloak” idea and going over other threads, I came up with some questions and ideas that fit into several threads and just figured to place it in the most likely place.

House elves have their own magic, but don't use it without their masters’ permission. So what types of wizard magic can a house elf ignore? That is to say, since they can apparate in and out of Hogwarts, what other thing can they do beyond the range of wizards and witches?

This came to me while thinking about the "Snape in GH" thread. While everyone wants to think about someone else being in the Potter home on the night of their murders it just came to me. Going against my idea in the "Why DD has James cloak" idea of the portraits telling DD that baby Harry was in danger; could a house elf have been sent to check on the Potters?

Say they can then it leaves too many holes in the plot or ideas for me to figure out alone.

1. Why wasn't a house elf like Dobby sent to do something to the Potters?
2. If a house elf was sent to observe/report on the Potters or rescue Harry, then why did Hagrid have to go get Harry instead of the house elf bringing him directly to Dumbledore?

Now this assumes that a house elf can violate a Fidelius Charm and find someone without the seeker keeper telling them, and also they can't tell anyone else cause the secret keeper must still do that. That is how Dobby gets to #4 Privet Drive to find Harry maybe?

Could that mean we just weren't supposed to learn about house elves in so much detail yet and Harry was removed from inside the house for Hagrid to soon after find by one of the Hogwarts' retinue? Could this tie into the idea of James' cloak being used to hide baby Harry while waiting outside for Hagrid so a passer-by didn't see either the house elf and the baby in the yard of the destroyed house?

Do house elves even need or able to use invisibility cloaks?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 26, 2006 1:11 pm (#419 of 594)
Edited Sep 26, 2006 2:11 pm

During, the readings with Stephen King, and John Irving last month in New York Last month J.K. Rowling was asked the following question:

Unknown (1): “Can muggles brew potions if they follow the exact instructions and they have all of the ingredients?”

J.K. Rowling: “Well, I'd have to say no. Because there is always a magical component in the potion. Not just the ingredients so at some point they will have to use a wand. I've been asked what would happen if a muggle picked up a magic wand in my world and the answer would probably be something accidental and probably quite violent because the wand in my world is merely a vehicle or a vessel of sorts and there is a very close relationship as you know between the wand that each wizard uses and themselves. And you'll find out more about that in book 7” (crowd applauds).

This answer raised a question my mind could the destruction of the House at Godric's Hollow have resulted from a Muggle or a Squib handling James and Lily's wands?

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juliebug - Sep 26, 2006 2:37 pm (#420 of 594)

Good find Nathan. That's an interesting possibility.

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Holly T. - Sep 26, 2006 2:41 pm (#421 of 594)

Oooh, maybe it was Petunia! Which would explain her fixation with the possibility that Harry might blow up the house. Hmmmm.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 30, 2006 4:35 pm (#422 of 594)
Edited Sep 30, 2006 5:38 pm

A second possibility occurred: James and Lily were living in Godric's Hollow, a Muggle Village, at the time they were placed under the Fidelus Charm. Is it possible that James and Lily were attempting to live as middle-class Muggles between the time of Harry's birth in July of 1980 and the deaths of the Potters in October of 1981?

In such a scenario, it seems plausible that a Squib like Arabella Figg was in employed in the capacity of a housekeeper because, it seems likely that James in particular may have had a difficult time adapting to a Muggle lifestyle and would have required some instruction,

Is it possible that Arabella Figg was present at Godric's Hollow the night the Ptters were killed?

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Mrs Brisbee - Sep 30, 2006 5:42 pm (#423 of 594)

Is it possible that Arabella Figg was present at Godric's Hollow the night the Potters were killed? --Nathan Zimmerman

I like that idea. And she could have been under the invisibility cloak. Being a Squib, she would have needed it because she couldn't do magic herself.

But we would still have a problem of how she knew about the Potter's secret location, but not that Peter was the secret keeper.

And why Rowling would need to keep her involvement secret from us readers up til this point.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 30, 2006 5:51 pm (#424 of 594)

I originally posted this to the "Why did Dumbledore have James's cloak?" thread in response to something Nathan had written there:

Having a Muggle population and having an all-Muggle population (aside from the late Potters) are two different things. It could be like Ottery-St-Catchpole (I think I spelled that right) where you have wizards living just outside the town (other than the Weasleys, don't the Lovegoods, the Fawcetts, and the Diggorys live near there as well). If the Potters' house was just outside town (like the Weasleys') then it could explain why it took a little time, not much but a little, for the Muggles to start swarming around. It's one thing when a house blows up next door to you and when it blows up right outside town. Then, if there were other wizarding families near that town, that might explain how news got around so fast.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 30, 2006 7:06 pm (#425 of 594)
Edited Sep 30, 2006 8:13 pm

Mrs. Brisbee, as to why her involvement might need to be kept a secret.

There are a few thoughts I can come up with of the top of my head.

1). First, if the Dursley's became aware of Mrs. Figg's connections to the Wizarding World then they would have been less likely to him with her when they took Dudley on birthday celebrations and the like.


2). Second, if Mrs. Figg were present at Godric's Hollow for any length of time then she could possibly have acquired knowledge that Dumbledore did not wish Harry to know prematurely.


3). Third, on the question of how she would know where the Potters were, and how she could tell Dumbledore, the question that this raised in my mind is the following:

Are Squibs and Muggles bound by the Fidelus charm in the same way Witches and Wizards are?

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S.E. Jones - Sep 30, 2006 7:42 pm (#426 of 594)

--Are Squibs and Muggles bound by the Fidelus charm in the same way Witches and Wizards are?—

Well, the charm probably wouldn't be quite as powerful a charm as has been alluded to in the books if it only worked on wizards/witches. I mean, what good does it do to hide from wizards, both friend and foe, but be able to be seen by Muggles, be they friend or foe?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 30, 2006 8:22 pm (#427 of 594)

S.E., I had not factored that into my reasoning. Well back to the drawing board.

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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 30, 2006 11:10 pm (#428 of 594)

Well, JK has put the kobosh on Snape under the cloak at Godric's Hollow now hasn't she?

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S.E. Jones - Oct 1, 2006 12:18 am (#429 of 594)
Edited Oct 1, 2006 1:18 am

You'd like to think so, Mrs. Sirius, but I think most proponents of the theory have simply changed their minds about Snape needing the cloak without changing their minds about him being there. Take a look at Madam Pince's post on the 'Snape was at Godric's Hollow' thread. The debate still seems to be on as far as that theory goes.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 1, 2006 8:57 pm (#430 of 594)

Thank's for the link. You guys are all litigators over there! Picky picky, pick.

But I think that Voldemort's ultimate act of evil and hatred he would have save for himself and would not have wanted to share that glorious act of evil in anyway.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 1, 2006 9:17 pm (#431 of 594)
Edited Oct 1, 2006 10:17 pm

I agree, Mrs S, that Voldemort wouldn't have brought anyone with him that night. Why even allow his DEs to even suspect that he may have feared an infant? Now, my brother made an interesting suggestion, that the reason he gave Lily a choice was so as to leave an eye witness, instead of bringing one along. Then he'd have someone, not specifically within the DEs, who could testify how he went in and killed James and Harry Potter, the last living members of a pureblood family. Personally, I think it's an interesting suggestion....

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shadzar - Oct 1, 2006 9:42 pm (#432 of 594)

What happened to LV’s body, and how was Harry explained as not being in the house, if he even had a birth record; but instead being at his aunt and uncle’s?

Seems like a possible case for arson and life insurance scam on the part of the Dursleys to me.

Would none of this been looked into?

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S.E. Jones - Oct 1, 2006 10:46 pm (#433 of 594)

No, it wouldn't have been looked into if the Ministry had stepped in. I really think they did, as it would've been an odd incident involving a witch and wizard. They would've got all the testimony they needed and then either obliviated or "fixed" the memories of any witnesses. Plus, Dumbledore could've easily told them he had Harry moved to the Dursleys and they wouldn't have questioned him, at the time anyway.

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wynnleaf - Oct 2, 2006 4:50 am (#434 of 594)

S.E.Jones,

Like Madam Pince, I had long thought it likely that Snape was at Godric's Hollow that night, but had never considered him as using the invisibility cloak until the past couple of weeks. So JKR's announcement that he wasn't under the cloak really did nothing to sway my opinion about him being there, it simply removed the possibility that he was under the invisibility cloak.

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maximiliano - Oct 23, 2006 8:15 pm (#435 of 594)
Edited Oct 23, 2006 9:32 pm

Haven't you ever noticed that Godric is also the name of Gryffindor... it's really weird and I thought that if LV was trying to use Harry's soul to make the seventh hourcrux... maybe, in the most strange situation, the scar is the seventh hourcrux. What I’m trying to say is that maybe LV didn't want to leavehis soul in Harry's body, but you know how magic is, if you think about it, it'll happens. Maybe LV was thinking about the hourcrux in the moment he pretended to murder Harry, and considering his obsession with the preteneces of Ravenclaw, Slitheryn and Huffelpuf, perhaps the Godric's Hollow is the connection between all the horcruxes.

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shadzar - Oct 23, 2006 8:20 pm (#436 of 594)

If Harry does return, and the house was "blown up" what does he expect to find? After 15 years wouldn't someone else maybe now own the land and have rebuilt on it? It is a muggle village right? Would Harry still legally own it and what about eminent domain laws if any. The city or state takes ownership and sells it off for someone else to build on it and clean up the rubble after any police investigations.

What could Harry really find there? Would it still be in rubble after 15 years? Something doesn't seem right about that.

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maximiliano - Oct 23, 2006 8:36 pm (#437 of 594)
Edited Oct 23, 2006 9:37 pm

Remember that bugles and wizards cannot see the house because it is a secret and the only one who can share it is PP and he is very missing with LV.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 23, 2006 9:14 pm (#438 of 594)
Edited Oct 23, 2006 10:19 pm

After 15 years wouldn't someone else maybe now own the land and have rebuilt on it? It is a muggle village right? Would Harry still legally own it and what about eminent domain laws if any. The city or state takes ownership and sells it off for someone else to build on it and clean up the rubble after any police investigations. Shadzer

These may well be muggle concepts that don't apply to the wizarding world or to wizard property. (sort of unplotable=untaxable). Also Harry is not poor, if there are taxes due, Gringotts or some fiscal guardian may had been appointed or designated to take care of this in the past 15 year.

Whether the house is visible to muggles or wizards or not, Harry must go there and he will learn much, but what? About his family? parents? why the Potters were chosen? who was there with Voldemort (was he alone?)

When Harry goes to Godrics's Hollow, he will be accompanied by Ron and Hermione, I expect. Will they learn something of themselves too?

I can imagine a Superman-ish type of scenario where Harry enters the house alone and the house rights it's self around him and tells him all. When he goes there he will certainly get some clues to help him in his struggle against Voldemort

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S.E. Jones - Oct 23, 2006 9:57 pm (#439 of 594)
Edited Oct 23, 2006 11:02 pm

I don't think anyone else would own the land now but Harry. Dumbledore seemed to take over as executor of the Potters' will, which would mean he would've been taking care of any taxes, etc, until Harry was old enough to. I doubt Dumbledore would let something like Harry's parents' house get taken over by anyone, at least until Harry was old enough to decide if he wanted it or not. I could see Dumbledore restoring the house so that Harry could live in it when he comes of age.

maximiliano, welcome to the forum! You might want to check some of the older posts on this thread. We think the Fidelius Charm that protected the house from view was destroyed when the house was destroyed by the rebounding Avada Kedavra curse, which would mean that anyone who came upon the house afterward, Muggles and all, would be able to see it. You know, you should really go introduce yourself in the Tell About Yourself thread or say hi in the Chat and Greetings thread, maximiliano.

I've been wondering, did James, being from an rich pureblooded family, have a house-elf? If so, where is it? What happened to it? Might it still be at the Godric's Hollow? If so, would it have rebuilt and taken charge of keeping up the house until a proper owner could return? It would be an easy way to provide much needed background information about James and Lily.

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shadzar - Oct 23, 2006 10:13 pm (#440 of 594)

Would the Potters ethics allowed them to keep house-elves or might they have been emancipated long ago? The only House-elf with information I think would be Dobby. He knew too much about Harry. How did he find Harry, what else could he have found out. Does his former servitude under the Malfoys prevent him from telling of things he knew while in their confidence and service about what he could have learned about Harry or LV, or even GH?

Could Harry send Kreacher to GH with Dobby as his "gaurdian" to and from to tell Harry what shape the house is in now?

Could someone have been watching over it for Harry other than a house-elf? If it was rebuilt, what oculd Harry learn? Where would the remains of the house be that may hold information about his parents from their possessions.

Hopefully GH will take up a whole chapter in the final book so we can get these answers. Maybe a hidden pensive of James that holds things he wanted to teach Harry as he grew up so James could prepare in advance for his child’s learning. Then Harry would learn about the "thrice defied" and what part James and Lily played in the first war, AND why DD had James cloak even!!!!!!!!

Finding a Pensieve in the house/ruins would be maybe an all too easy way to tell Harry and us what went on, but would be very important to Harry to see and get to know his parents.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 23, 2006 10:29 pm (#441 of 594)

I definitely think finding a pensieve would be way too easy.

Why would their ethics have led to them freeing their house-elf? They're an old pureblooded family, so I don't see them taking on as radical an idea as Hermione's house-elf movement (I mean radical in terms of how the wizarding world seems to view the idea). I think that, if the Weasleys had had a family house-elf, they would've kept him/her around. I don't think an elf would be treated as badly by the Potters as Dobby was by the Malfoys either.

As for how Dobby found Harry, I don't think that's hard. From the impression I got, especially after CoS, the whole wizarding world has been keeping tabs on "The-Boy-Who-Lived" since he was left on the Dursley's front step. Ron knew in PS that Harry had gone to live with Muggles and Ernie seemed to know all about Harry living with Muggles and his intense dislike of them in CoS.

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TheSaint - Oct 24, 2006 12:09 am (#442 of 594)

Hagrid said something about leaving Godrics Hollow before the muggles started swarming, so I am under the impression that they could see it.

SE - Why would their ethics have led to them freeing their house-elf?

Because Lily is a muggle-born and not of the purebloods. I somehow do not think she would have a 'slave'. They may have had a house elf like Dobby, freed but stayed on as a hired hand. Hard to imagine they had one though. Just doesn't seem to fit my image of them.

If everyone was keeping tabs on Harry while he was with the muggles, then wouldn't they know where to find him? I think Ron knew because his parents were in the order and I their meeting was meant to be... I think Ernie just heard about it during the first year in Hogwarts.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 24, 2006 1:08 am (#443 of 594)
Edited Oct 24, 2006 2:09 am

TheSaint --Because Lily is a muggle-born and not of the purebloods. I somehow do not think she would have a 'slave'. They may have had a house elf like Dobby, freed but stayed on as a hired hand.—

If Hermione hadn't seen the way Winky was treated by Mr. Crouch and the others on the scene after the Dark Mark was set off, would she still be as adamant about SPEW as we see her in GoF? I don't think so. She didn't start screaming about enslavement when she saw Winky in the top box with them during the Quidditch World Cup. I think it was that particular scene which made Hermione look at it as slavery. I think that, if James had treated a house-elf well, then Lily might not have had any reason to see it the way Hermione does, unless she had more encounters with House-elves aside from any James might have. I don't know if James's family would've had one or not, but if they did, I can't see him getting rid of him/her.

--If everyone was keeping tabs on Harry while he was with the muggles, then wouldn't they know where to find him? I think Ron knew because his parents were in the order and I their meeting was meant to be... I think Ernie just heard about it during the first year in Hogwarts.—

The Weasleys weren't in the Order the first time around, though. I guess I could see Ron hearing that from his dad and his dad hearing while working in the Ministry, but I think it was probably fairly well known. He's the Boy-Who-Lived after all, wouldn't everyone want to know about him, even if they weren't allowed to get too close? We know Harry saw some wizards while he was out with Petunia, some were in the Order but I'm thinking some mentioned were not.

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shadzar - Oct 24, 2006 2:44 am (#444 of 594)

S.E. Jones: The Weasleys may in fact have one, just finding it in all the clutter would be a problem. =O

If the Potters did have one at GH, then where has it been all this time? Still hiding around the house? Roaming free because it thinks Harry to be dead? Waiting in the house for his master to return?

I can see a pensieve more believable than a house-elf at the old house. Otherwise Hermione will have lots to occupy her time with research and questioning those who knew them, but haven't told Harry jack-squat about it all yet!

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TheSaint - Oct 24, 2006 6:14 am (#445 of 594)
Edited Oct 24, 2006 7:14 am

SE - I think that, if James had treated a house-elf well, then Lily might not have had any reason to see it the way Hermione does, unless she had more encounters with House-elfs aside from any James might have.

There are all those house elves at Hogwarts.

True the Weasleys were not in the Order the first time around, but we don't know when they joined or how much they were 'filled-in' when they did.

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juliebug - Oct 24, 2006 6:24 am (#446 of 594)

I think that Hermione is pretty much the only person who holds her extreme opinions on House Elves. There are plenty of other muggle-borns around Hogwarts, and I'm sure our industrious little lobbyist has spoken to them all.

I could believe that Lily would not see a problem with a well-treated House Elf. She may have even seen them at work toward the end of her years at Hogwarts (maybe sneaking around with James after-hours once they became a couple?)

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Thom Matheson - Oct 24, 2006 10:36 am (#447 of 594)

You guys don't suppose that the real tie between Harry and Dobby goes back to Godric Hollow, do you. I'm not saying that Dobby was the Potter's elf, but a related in some way?

We have seen 3 elves and 2 of them are a mirror of their masters and their persona. Winky and Kreacher. But, not Dobby. No way does he mirror the Malfoy's, but he does mirror the Potter's.

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haymoni - Oct 24, 2006 10:42 am (#448 of 594)

If Dobby had been the Potters' elf, I think he would have exploded by now.

I can't believe that the MOM would have let the spot where Voldy met his demise just sit there. It just seems like it would have become a museum of sorts.

Unless they decided to protect it completely - Unplottable - hidden from wizards as well as Muggles.

Perhaps then Harry will need Mr. Weasley's help to actually see the house.

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S.E. Jones - Oct 24, 2006 1:17 pm (#449 of 594)
Edited Oct 24, 2006 2:19 pm

TheSaint --There are all those house elves at Hogwarts.—

It doesn't seem we get to see the elves unless they go looking for Harry (as Dobby does) or Harry goes looking for them (either calling Dobby and Kreacher or going to the kitchens). If Lily never snuck down to the kitchens she wouldn't have come face to face with the house-elves there. Hermione only knew about them because she'd read 'Hogwarts, A History' which lists them as being there. Also, the elves at Hogwarts (apart from Winky, and now Kreacher) seem quite happy there and are treated quite well, it would seem, by Dumbledore.

haymoni --I can't believe that the MOM would have let the spot where Voldy met his demise just sit there.... Unless they decided to protect it completely - Unplottable - hidden from wizards as well as Muggles.—

Now that's an interesting thought. It reminded me of how they made Queerditch Marsh Unplottable after it became the founding place of Quidditch. Still, I thought making it Unplottable only stopped Muggles? I know it keeps a place from being plotted on a map, which is supposed to make it harder for other wizards to find, but not impossible, right?

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haymoni - Oct 25, 2006 5:22 am (#450 of 594)
Edited Oct 25, 2006 6:22 am

I'm sure there are other kinds of enchantments that they could use to hide something.

The way folks react to Harry when they see him for the first time - Voldy disappearing was a huge deal.

Actually, I'm surprised someone like Dung didn't start some sort of business surrounding it.

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Detail Seeker - Oct 25, 2006 12:27 pm (#451 of 594)
Edited Oct 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Interrupting the House Elf subthread:
If we can take Hagrid´s words for the way the Fidelius was placed on Godric´s Hollow, (By sense: Voldemort could have pressed his nose onto the living room windows of Godric´s Hollow and would not have seen the Pottters in there), then the House was not invisible/unplottable etc. at all, only the fact, that somebody was in there was hidden. Making a house in a Muggle inhabited area invisible would be noticed by the Muggles around, which would make a whole lot of memory modifications necessary - but that would spread the news, that something has been hidden there, So hiding the people, not the house, would make sense.

That would also explain, why Hagrid could find Godric´s Hollow, though it does not explain, why he could find Harry. Perhaps it was only, because the secret covered by the Fidelius was no longer true. The Potters were not hiding anymore, because 2/3 were dead and the house was destroyed. But this latter explanation is, of course, not directly supported by canon.

Haymoni, we do not know, that Dung did no business with relics.

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Mattew Bates - Oct 25, 2006 1:26 pm (#452 of 594)

Detail Seeker, I think that's part of what makes the Fidelius Charm so complex - it is, in part, a mass memory charm on all who have any knowledge about the protected secret. The protected property and their memories of it all disappear at the same time. If they try to think of it again, the memories stay out-of-reach. "I could have sworn there was a house around here somewhere." "Where did that dark-haired boy live again?"

As to why Hagrid could find Harry, there's been some speculation over at the Fidelius Charm thread that the owner of a property must give permission for the charm to be placed on it. Once the property passes to a new owner, the charm would have to be re-applied. If the house belonged to the Potters, then the charm was broken with their deaths.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 29, 2006 6:18 pm (#453 of 594)

Unless of course, Hagrid had been given the address much in the same manner Harry received the address to 12GP.

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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 21, 2006 10:31 pm (#454 of 594)

Ok drum roll: "Harry Potter and the "Deathly Hallows" not -Hollows-. However, we know Harry is going to Godric's Hollow, for me “Hallow” brings to mind -hallowed grounds-. Harry's parents are dead and the last place they were known to be was Godric's Hollow. Could Godric’s Hollow be their final resting place?. Has the ground been consecrated – that is, Hallowed?

When I first read the released title, I miss read it as "Deathly Hollows". I did not like this title at all, "Deathly" is an odd word to use. It is a menacing word, not a descriptive word. Of course since I was thinking -Hollows-, I thought that perhaps all the area near GH were burying ground.

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 22, 2006 8:25 am (#455 of 594)

I believe that Deathly Hallows refers to the Horcruxes. Hallows being items that were the property of individuals who have passed away and Deathly pertaining to the fact that the items are all potentially fatal. But jm2k's.

Mickey

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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 23, 2006 3:56 pm (#456 of 594)

Detail Seeker wrote - Making a house in a Muggle inhabited area invisible would be noticed by the Muggles around, which would make a whole lot of memory modifications necessary - but that would spread the news, that something has been hidden there, So hiding the people, not the house, would make sense.

I'm not sure I understand - I thought #12 Grimmauld Place was invisible to Muggles and it appeared to Harry only after he read the note that it existed. Don't have OoP so cannot check... can anyone clarify? I guess DD could have added an invisibility charm to #12GP on top of Fidelius.

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Madame Pomfrey - Dec 24, 2006 9:44 pm (#457 of 594)

You are right, Me and My. Harry could not see the house until he read the note then it suddenly appeared in between two houses.

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deletedaccount - Dec 26, 2006 6:33 pm (#458 of 594)

The news media had misspelled the title.

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S.E. Jones - Jan 1, 2007 1:10 am (#459 of 594)

Detail Seeker --Making a house in a Muggle inhabited area invisible would be noticed by the Muggles around, which would make a whole lot of memory modifications necessary - but that would spread the news, that something has been hidden there, So hiding the people, not the house, would make sense.—

To me, the Fidelius itself would allow something in the magic or how it works to prevent people from noticing that the neighbors’ house suddenly disappeared. It's not like there would suddenly be a big vacant lot where their house once was, the ground on either side of the house would simply appear to merge. When Harry saw Grimmauld Place before reading the note, the houses on either side touched; after he saw the note, #12 pushed its way in between the other two into a space that didn't appear to exist before he was in on the secret.

Mrs. Sirius, I had a similar thought as far as Godric's Hollow now being considered "sacred" to the inhabitants of the wizarding world. It is the spot where little Harry Potter became the "Chosen One" and the "Boy-who-lived" afterall.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 18, 2007 7:41 pm (#460 of 594)

It seems to me the only way DD (and Hagrid) could have known the whereabouts of the Potters is exactly how Harry found out about #12 -- through a second party giving them an anonymous note (from Peter) with the address. I guess this could be why she wrote it that way in OoP.

However, Peter would be invested in *not* providing DD with their location if he was working with Vold. I wonder if JKR had Moody so keen to destroy the note directly afterwards in OoP because he knows it can be passed on to others than the one it was meant for, and perhaps he knows this because it happened with DD and Hagrid.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jan 18, 2007 10:47 pm (#461 of 594)

The Weasleys are an old wizarding family but don’t have the house elf. So money is a big component in having a house elf. (The Potter family was rolling in wizarding gold... are we going to meet the Potter house elf at Godric's Hallow?) (from the COS read-along 2007 thread)

Is it possible that a house elf has been waiting for the rightful master all these 16 years? I am pretty sure that Kreacher will be extremely important in Book 7 and instrumental to Harry in the Horcrux search. Kreacher in HBP is quite antagonistic toward Dobby, and Harry,

Will Kreacher also present problems for Harry in that the Potter house elf must help Harry with?

If this elf has been waiting for 16 years will he have lost perspective as Kreacher did at 12 GP?

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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 19, 2007 1:56 pm (#462 of 594)

Since we don't know how long the Potter's had been in hiding, I suggest that they hadn't gotten enough time to bring their house elf with them. If indeed they had one. But JM2K's.

Mickey

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sstabeler - Jan 28, 2007 12:32 pm (#463 of 594)
Edited by S.E. Jones Jan 28, 2007 9:31 pm

My impression is that you wouldn't NEED to bring the elf with you, just whisper the elf-s name once you had arrived, and the elf apparates/whatever they do to go to their masters and then you have your elf. And as for whether the elf would be insane- Kreacher had been taking orders from Mrs. Black's portrait, so that is why. He had been taking mad orders, so went mad. If the potter's elf/ves ( they might have had more than one) is mad, it would be from searching for his rightful master. Maybe that is how Harry finds the house, finding an elf crawling around, maintaining the place, and it says " master?", then Harry realises (and Hermione/Ron). In fact, if the potters did have an elf, who else thinks he would get the elf to help Mrs. Weasley? Esp. if he ends up back with Ginny, but this isn't a shipping thread.

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Luna Logic - Feb 15, 2007 2:22 am (#464 of 594)
Edited by Feb 15, 2007 2:28 am

New ideas in some threads, about Godric’s Hollow (the place): what was there, who lived there….
S.E. Jones: Dd knew Voldemort liked trophies and perhaps even knew he was collecting Founders' relics for some purpose (…), so... maybe Dd was actively trying to collect Founder-related artifacts himself as he knew possessing them would put their owners in danger of being attacked by Voldemort, or he worried that Voldemort would be able to do something magical with them, either way it could eventually tie into Godric's Hollow (if James's family owned the sword), the Founders (as the sword belonged to Gryffindor)(…) (see whole post: "Why did Dumbledore have James's cloak?" #1196)

A post of mine, answering Hawthorne’s question “And where was the headquarters of The Order back then?”
LL - Why not in Godric's Hollow? I suppose the (probable) existence of other wizard's houses in that Muggle village, curiously named after a wizard, Godric Gryffindor (" Was It Snape At Godric's Hollow That Night?" #579)

Another hypothesis, I am questioning again the possible existence of member of the Order in the neighbourhood. Perhaps a squib, perhaps A. Figg.

Elanor has just given an interesting explanation of baby Harry protecting himself of the house’s destruction, by instinctive magic. (see LL #598)

My present idea: If Mrs Figg was the Potters occasional warden of the baby (before the Fidelius Charm), why not an instinctive transplaning to his warden’s house? Then she contacts the Order.

So the following questions: What was at Godric’s Hollow in ancient times? And what, in times before the attack? What wizard families could have been living there, or what monument, ruins are remaining (Links to Godric G? to B. Wright?)? What do we know, or may suppose, about Godric’s Hollow, the village and surroundings?

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HungarianHorntail11 - Feb 15, 2007 5:19 am (#465 of 594)

With regard to GH and the Order, the best basis of comparison we have, unfortunately, is 12GP. Which is not as bad as it first seems. It shows us:

1. how wizard houses can exist among muggle houses.

2. That the Order used others' homes to meet in (not just DD's office, for example).

3. Some of the houses went back for ages in history.

4. It would be possible and even imaginable that several or more of such houses can exist in one neighborhood.

5. Objects of value can and may have been hidden in GH. (Thinking of the heavy locket at 12GP.) I would venture to guess that DD had visited there at least once.

All in all, I have a feeling it was a nicer house and area than 12GP but that is not based on anything in canon. It was probably a livelier area which would explain why so many reacted so quickly.

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Luna Logic - Feb 15, 2007 6:23 am (#466 of 594)
Edited by Feb 15, 2007 6:40 am

Very clear summary HungarianHorntail11.
I like your idea of Dumbledore using to visit such an area (which could exist near Godric's Hollow).

May we add a supposition concerning his portrait?

Continuing the symmetry you were using with Grimmauld Place, Grimmauld Place is a family house (the Black family). Phineas Black, ancient director of Hogwarts, has a portrait in his family's House, and another at Hogwarts. Where could be such a portrait of Dumbledore?

edited: JKR describes carefully the surroundings of Spinner's End; but nothing about Godric's Hollow; JKR supervises the film scene at GH: no surroundings again. So much action in GH, and not a description, just the cottage. (I'm thinking of a parallel with the incident of the dog who didn't bark - Sherlock Holmes).

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HungarianHorntail11 - Feb 15, 2007 8:13 am (#467 of 594)

Luna, as with horcruxes, I don't think it is an accident that she has omitted certain areas until DH.

As you mentioned with the dog. . .what isn't said is what should raise an eyebrow. Certainly worth speculating about. I suppose we could start with Pettigrew, as it would be fitting. I think he played on Sirius' insecurities to become secret keeper. Do you think he needed to be there that night?

I wonder if the Order had met after the Potters were put into GH under Fidelius?

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Luna Logic - Feb 18, 2007 2:42 am (#468 of 594)
Edited by Feb 18, 2007 2:59 am

HungarianHorntail11: I suppose we could start with Pettigrew, as it would be fitting. I think he played on Sirius' insecurities to become secret keeper. Do you think he needed to be there that night?

What we know about Peter’s location this day has been quoted by Laura W "Why did Dumbledore have James' cloak?" #1231: We know that Sirius was not at GH at the time when LV came to get the Potters because he tells us so in PoA. " ... the night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. ... I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies - I realized what Peter must have done."

I'm looking for an explanation to the events at Godric's Hollow with an elaborate role for Peter. Not only reporting the secret to Voldemort. Many is to explain there, first, how (and where) did Sirius found Peter?

My favorite guess: Peter was part of a plot intended to mislead the Order on that night.
I don’t see Peter as a witness the attack. But arriving later… problem of timing, there.

HungarianHorntail11: I wonder if the Order had met after the Potters were put into GH under Fidelius?

During that week? why not... Are you thinking of a Order's meeting at the time of the attack?

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Laura W - Feb 18, 2007 4:19 pm (#469 of 594)

Hi Luna.

Timelines in the HP series give me a headache, but it sounds as if Sirius found Peter in the street (in London?) after the Potters were killed. From various references in PoA (from Hagrid, Fudge, the Daily Prophet, Stan Shunpike and Black himself) which I could cite here - and may have to later -, it *sounds* as if things happened like this, in this order:

Sirius went to check on Peter at Peter's hiding place on Oct. 31, 1981; did not find him there; went to the Potters' place; saw the house destroyed and James' and Lily's bodies (no mention of seeing Peter); ran into Rubeus Hagrid there; gave Hagrid his flying motorcycle to take baby Harry to Dumbledore; set off to find Peter knowing Peter was the Secret-Keeper and would be the only one able to lead Voldemort to the house at GH; found Peter in the street (London?) in broad daylight on Nov. 1; was about to curse him when Peter killed all those Muggles, transformed into a rat and went down the sewer; and finally Sirius was picked up by the Magical Law Enforcement Patrol.

Laura

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Mrs. Sirius - Mar 28, 2007 6:44 am (#470 of 594)

Guilty, I can't wait until JK takes us to Godric's Hallow and now it looks like we may have been show the first glimpse of it. Does Voldemort follow Harry to Godric's Hallow and that is the broken house with gold curtain we see?

When HRH are in that explosion of treasures, it looks like Harry is purposefully plunging in (with Dobby? on his back). We see the suit of amour and the helm, are those the Potter family treasures?

This reminds of the line from PS/SS when the Potter family vault is opened, -there is "more gold" than Harry had ever seen before-.

Is there any mention anywhere of a dragon? lizard? dinouser associated with the Potter family?

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HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 28, 2007 7:29 am (#471 of 594)

I was thinking it was the splintered dais on the cover - the veil just on the outer fringes.

I like the idea of the vault. I think the only way to see GH in any form other than a rebuilt one would be through a pensieve. Could Big V hide something in a thought?

EDIT: Mrs. Sirius, your theory makes more sense than if it was Kreacher.

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Mrs. Sirius - Mar 28, 2007 7:35 am (#472 of 594)

Oh, too late to add, but could the elf on Harry's back be the Potter family elf? Notice they carefully don't show his face. The ears on this elf are rather pointy. I unfortunately have lost track of COS (couldn't finish read-alone) but I remember Dobby's ears being described as floppy not pointy.

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juliebug - Mar 28, 2007 7:58 am (#473 of 594)

In chapter 2 of CoS titled Dobby's Warning, his ears are described as bat-like and the illustration of them, looks pointy.

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Madam Pince - Mar 28, 2007 11:18 am (#474 of 594)

HH11, I think Mrs. Sirius didn't mean Kreacher -- she meant that possibly James and Lily had a house-elf we haven't met yet, who hung around the ruins of Godric's Hollow waiting for a chance to be of assistance to Harry someday. (I only know this from reading her post on the Book 7 Title thread...)

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Luna Logic - Mar 28, 2007 11:49 am (#475 of 594)

Madam Pince: possibly James and Lily had a house-elf we haven't met yet, who hung around the ruins of Godric's Hollow waiting for a chance to be of assistance to Harry someday.

Yes and that same house-elf could have transplaned to give the news on the night of the attack - or rescued Harry from the ruins?

But really, all that years in the ruins... what a fate!

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HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 28, 2007 1:13 pm (#476 of 594)

Mrs. Sirius, your theory makes more sense than if it was Kreacher. That's what I meant, Madam Pince. You mean I wasn't clear? I meant that I can't see Kreacher helping Harry and the thing on his back doesn't look the way I envisioned Dobby so a Potter house elf makes better sense. But the hiding out on the property part I can't work out.

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Soul Search - Mar 28, 2007 2:11 pm (#477 of 594)

Is it possible Dobby was the Potter's house elf, but had to find another position when the house was destroyed and his masters killed? He couldn't have gone to # 4 Privet Drive. We have wondered why Dobby went to warn harry in CoS.

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MickeyCee3948 - Mar 28, 2007 4:02 pm (#478 of 594)

Dumbledore would have offered him a job at Hogwarts 13 years earlier in my opinion.

Mickey

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Choices - Mar 28, 2007 4:41 pm (#479 of 594)

I agree Mickey. Dumbledore would never place poor Dobby with the Malfoys.

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Laura W - Mar 29, 2007 1:59 am (#480 of 594)

Argument *against* Dobby having been the Potters' house elf -

CoS, Chapter Two. Dobby is in Harry's bedroom at 4PD. Harry asks Dobby to sit down. Dobby bursts into tears. Dobby says, "Dobby has *never* been asked to sit down by a wizard - like an equal -". Harry says, "You can't have met many decent wizards." Dobby shakes his head as if to say he hasn't.

Had Dobby served James and Lily Potter, he would have met and lived with two very decent wizards I expect.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mrs. Sirius, in CoS, Dobby is described as having "large, bat-like ears." That could mean large for his head - as the picture shows - *and* pointy.

Hate to sound like an insufferable know-it-all, but a lot of bats have pointy ears. It all depends on the species of bat. Some have small round ears and some have long pointy ones and some have short pointy ones, and others have other shaped-ears as well.

Laura

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MickeyCee3948 - Mar 29, 2007 12:49 pm (#481 of 594)

Mrs. Sirius haven't you learned by now how much we all love insufferable know-it-alls who are just like Hermoine.

Mickey

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Soul Search - Mar 29, 2007 1:00 pm (#482 of 594)

I have to agree, Dobby was never the Potters' house elf. Dobby's comment about asked to sit down by a wizard was the kicker.

Oh well, it was an interesting thought. I guess Dobby just wanted to help Harry.

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Laura W - Mar 29, 2007 6:35 pm (#483 of 594)

Oh, I'm not at all like Hermoine, Mickey! (blush) Not Gryffindor, for one thing, and not super smart for another. But thanks for the comparison anyway. I just happen to be fascinated by bats and therefore have made a point of learning a bit about them over my lifetime.

(gives friendly wave to Mrs. Sirius. do keep your theories coming, please)

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I guess Dobby just wanted to help Harry. (soul search)

Now, there's an understatement, if I ever read one! (hee, hee)

Laura

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Mrs. Sirius - Mar 29, 2007 7:35 pm (#484 of 594)

Mrs. Sirius haven't you learned by now how much we all love insufferable know-it-alls who are just like Hermoine. Mickey

I love you insufferable know-it-alls, that's why I am here and keep coming back. Keep being insufferable know-it-alls.

I have been floating the Potter house-elf theory around for some time now. It comes from a discussion on a thread whose name I don't recall. But remember Kreacher was at 12 Grimmauld Place for some 12? 13? years taking orders from the portrait of the Mad old Mrs Black. So why would a potter house elf not remain at Godric's Hallow waiting for his proper master to return?

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Madam Pince - Mar 29, 2007 7:38 pm (#485 of 594)

HH11, it all made perfect sense in my mind when I thought it, but now I have no idea what I was talking about. I think I have sleep deprivation. I beg your pardon -- your post was perfectly clear, as usual!

The idea briefly crossed my mind that Dobby could've originally belonged to the Potters, and then when they died he somehow ended up at the Malfoy's, but I can't really see it. Wouldn't he go to the Potters' heir, Harry? Unless DD had some sort of enchantment so he, nor anyone else magical, could get near baby/toddler/young Harry. That would've been the considerate thing to do actually -- imagine the Dursleys with a house-elf living in their house if they think Harry's a freak...

Can't convince myself of a house-elf hanging around the deserted ruins of a house for a decade, either. That would just be too cruel. If the house was still standing, perhaps, but supposedly there's nothing left of it.

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vega ome - Apr 15, 2007 1:51 pm (#486 of 594)

Howdy All,

Sorry if this has been asked before, I have not read this thread in its entirety yet. Something I keep thinking about GH is why would this be the Potter's homestead (at least the house that was destroyed there)?

If LV is coming for you (they went into hiding) would you hide in your own house, where everyone knows you live? Could it be the house that was destroyed was not there homestead but temp lodging.

If they knew LV was coming I can’t believe the order did not lay a trap for him (Just thinking out loud) LV would of sent scouts/escorts ahead because of traps. I think there was more than one bad guy/person at GH that night.

v/r

Mike

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Choices - Apr 15, 2007 3:57 pm (#487 of 594)
Edited Apr 15, 2007 4:58 pm

Vega, I have always seriously doubted the Godric's Hollow house belonged to the Potters for the very reason you mention. Who would be dumb enough to go into hiding in their own house? I suspect the house was made available to them by Dumbledore - either it was his house or belonged to one of his friends.

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haymoni - Apr 16, 2007 5:14 am (#488 of 594)

But with the Fidelius Charm, you could hide in your own house.

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Choices - Apr 16, 2007 11:26 am (#489 of 594)

True, but what I always worry about is Voldemort coming along and saying, "I can't see them, but this is their house, so I think I'll just blow it up to make sure. If they're in there, the explosion will kill them all." Boom! Good-bye James and Lilly and Harry!

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vega ome - Apr 17, 2007 6:14 pm (#490 of 594)

Howdy Choices,

Thinking more about it maybe Godric's Hollow is where Harry's Grandparents lived (did Lupin eat over there during the Holidays?) while James was growing up and going the school. After he married Lily they got their own house in Godric's Hollow but when they found out they were a target DD hide them in the house he grew up in.

So maybe Harry has two places to vist in Godric's Hollow? His Grandparent's house and his parent's house.

That’s all I can think of right now.

v/r

Mike

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Choices - Apr 18, 2007 11:05 am (#491 of 594)
Edited Apr 18, 2007 12:07 pm

It was Sirius that used to spend time with James at his house. Sirius did not see eye-to-eye with his parents and their beliefs, and had left home before he finished Hogwarts. He stayed with James over holidays and ate there with James and his parents. We are given no hint as to where James and his parents lived.

I have seen some hints that Dumbledore may be connected with Godric Gryffindor (the griffin doorknocker on the door to his office, for instance), so it makes sense that Dumbledore could have had a house in Godric's Hollow - a house he loaned to the Potter's when they needed to hide. Of course, I realize that there are also other possibilities as to who owns the house.

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vega ome - Apr 18, 2007 5:55 pm (#492 of 594)

Howdy Choices,

I stand corrected, it was Sirius. Lots of rust on this end.

I like the idea it could of been DD's house. If that’s true then maybe somewhere out there Harry has a house.

The knocker on his office was probably there before DD was even born though I would think.

Since there were four founders of the school I imagine each one had their own office, maybe DD uses GG's original office? Make me wonder what rooms where used by the others?

v/r

Mike

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S.E. Jones - May 1, 2007 3:08 am (#493 of 594)
Edited May 1, 2007 4:09 am

Well, if fan theories about the Fidelius Charm needing the owner's permission for it to be placed on a house are anywhere near the mark (which I think they are as it explains Dd's need to verify Harry owning #12GP and Hagrid being able to find baby Harry, the Potters' bodies and the ruined house as the new owner - Harry - hadn't given his permission) then it makes perfect sense to hide in your own home. If you were hiding in someone else's home, that person could be found and killed and then you're exposed because the charm would break, but if the Fidelius conceals information (like where the Potters lived), even from people who already knew, then it would make sense to hide in your own home where you can give permission for the charm to be cast and don't have to worry about anything happening unless your Secret Keeper pulls a Pettigrew.

I also seriously doubt Voldemort would be able to see the house considering what we've seen at Grimmauld Place. I personally think Flitwick's comments about Voldemort having his nose against the sitting room window and still not being able to see them included him not being able to see the window as well. In other words, he could be close enough for his nose to actually touch the glass but he still wouldn't be able to see the window or the room and people beyond (i.e., he was exaggerating to make a point of how well the charm hides you). Of course, we'll have to wait for DH to know for sure how the charm works.

So, in short (yeah, too late, right?) I think it was their house.

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haymoni - May 1, 2007 6:45 am (#494 of 594)

I think you could see the room, the furniture, etc., but not the Potters.

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Soul Search - May 1, 2007 6:58 am (#495 of 594)

haymoni, I agree that the charm had to be for the Potters and not the house. Otherwise, how could Dumbledore send Hagrid, who wasn't in on the secret, to fetch Harry from a house he couldn't see.

Of course, we still have the problem of how Hagrid could see Harry.

I am wondering how a Fidelius Charm is "undone?" There must be a way; how many secrets would be kept forever?

Wormtail was secret keeper. The secret keeper must have complete power over the secret. He went to Voldemort. Did Wormtail just tell Voldemort where to find the Potters, or did he "undo" the secret. It would make sense to "undo" the secret, since that would allow any number of death eaters to join Voldemort there, in the same way Voldemort called the death eaters to him at the end of GoF.

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Steve Newton - May 1, 2007 7:47 am (#496 of 594)

I also think that the charm was on the Potters, Lily and James, thus allowing Harry to be found.

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haymoni - May 1, 2007 7:50 am (#497 of 594)

I think Hagrid already knew where they were before the Charm was cast, so it didn't matter.

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Steve Newton - May 1, 2007 8:31 am (#498 of 594)

My understanding of the charm is that knowing before would not help. If not then all of the Black sisters could find the headquarters of the OOTP. They can't now.

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haymoni - May 1, 2007 9:26 am (#499 of 594)

They can find it - they just don't know that it is the Headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix.

They could go and blast their uncle's house to smithereens - if they can get past all the Unplottable bits that he and probably Dumbledore put on it later.

Also, if they did go up to the house, they wouldn't see anybody in it except for Kreacher and he can't say anything.

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Soul Search - May 1, 2007 12:13 pm (#500 of 594)

Steve Newton,

I also think that the charm was on the Potters, Lily and James, thus allowing Harry to be found.

That nicely solves the problem of Hagrid finding Harry. Question is, how much did the Potters know? They knew Voldemort wanted them, for that "thrice defying," but did they know of the prophecy and that Voldemort, particularly, wanted to kill Harry? In either case, could they not include Harry in the charm? If only James and Lily were included in the charm, anyone could look in the window and see Harry. Where Harry was, so would his parents be.

It seems to me that Harry had to be included in the charm.

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Choices - May 1, 2007 12:39 pm (#501 of 594)

We are told that James and Lily's bodies were found in the ruins. Obviously, someone could see them. That tends to make me think that the charm lifted when James and Lily were killed because it was no longer needed. Why Harry was excluded, I do not know? Makes me think that perhaps the charm was just on James and Lily.

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TheSaint - May 1, 2007 1:08 pm (#502 of 594)

I tend to agree with Choices, but if the charm was on the house, it was destroyed also. Either way, what was being protected and who it was being protected from were all destroyed. I think DD knew to send Hagrid when he suddenly became aware of where James and Lily were and knew that he should not, thus he knew the charm had been destroyed.

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S.E. Jones - May 1, 2007 2:36 pm (#503 of 594)

I didn't really mean to start up the Fidelius discussion on this thread, but since it was brought up, the charm needing to have the owner's permission clears things up quite nicely. Since James and Lily would've been the house's owners, their death meant that the new owner would either have to give permission or the charm would break (which means everything would be seen, Harry, the house, the bodies, everything). Since Harry would've been the new owner and would've only been a 1-year-old, he wouldn't have been able to give his permission, thus the charm would've been broken.

Can we move the discussion back to Godric's Hollow? I'm happy to debate the pros and cons of this theory with anyone who wants to discuss it on the Fidelius Charm thread.

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Elanor - May 5, 2007 11:54 pm (#504 of 594)
Edited May 6, 2007 1:01 am

While searching for a post for the alchemy thread, about the meaning of the runes Hermione mixes up in her OWL exam in OotP, I found out that "eihwaz" means "yew tree" and is said to refer to mythological Ygdrasil. It reminded me that, in one of Agatha Christie's novel, a character keeps drawing a tree "which doesn't look like a tree" that she calls Ygdrasil.

So, I searched my collection of A. Christie novels and the title in which the said Ygdrasil appears is "The Hollow"! More than that, a very interesting scene of that novel sees Hercule Poirot reciting to the "Ygdrasil Lady" (named Henrietta) the beginning of an Alfred Tennyson's poem which gave me goose bumps when I read it:

“I hate the dreadful hollow behind the little wood,

Its lips in the field above are dabbled with blood-red heath,

The red-ribb’d ledges drip with a silent horror of blood,

And Echo there, whatever is ask’d her, answers ‘Death.’ “

(From "Maud; A Monodrama" - Alfred Tennyson).

Heath is "An extensive tract of uncultivated open land covered with herbage and low shrubs; a moor." (American Heritage Dictionary) and, according to the Sorting Hat, Godric Gryffindor was "from wild moor" (GoF, p.156, UK paperback).

The poem and the heath/moor connection do make me think of Godric's Hollow! And, to me, the "Echo" part of the poem has a very ouroboros/circle tone when thinking of Harry going back to Godric's Hollow in the DH and carries a very foreshadowing (and worrying) mirror image too -- the echo of death is what is waiting for Harry at Godric's Hollow...

What do you think? BTW, would anybody know if Jo particularly likes Agatha Christie's work?

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journeymom - May 6, 2007 11:55 am (#505 of 594)

Audrey, that's an amazing sequence of connections you made there.

I've never heard that Jo particularly likes Agatha Christie, but there's no reason to think she doesn't. She's a prolific reader and she is certainly a master mystery writer. She and Christie share a literary heritage and borrow from the same sources.

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totyle - May 7, 2007 12:27 am (#506 of 594)
Edited May 7, 2007 1:28 am

That's brilliant. I have The Hollow though haven’t reread it for a long while-can't wait to go home after work and dig it up so that I can have a look at that tie in with Godric's Hollow!

At the back of the dust jacket of the hard cover OotP and HBP, I can just make out 2 if not 3 Agatha Christie books behind JKR, they're on the left hand side near her left shoulder. I think there's only two-not The Hollow though-Dead Man's Folly and something else I can’t make out.

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journeymom - May 7, 2007 8:39 am (#507 of 594)

Yeah, next to a book about Freud...

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 12, 2007 10:19 pm (#508 of 594)

Other than finding the Horcruxes, the most vexing questions for me are how will Harry get to Privet Drive this question being important because Ron and Hermione will go with him and how is he getting to Godric's Hallow?

How he gets to 4PD I think will be a rather mechanical matter, the train, a broom, thestral or even apparating.

How he gets to Godric's Hollow however will not be so simple. This being important because of the fidelius charm protecting GH. If Harry doesn't actually find a Horcrux there, he will certain find some really significant information to achieve his goal there. On another thread, we were discussing the Mirror of Erised, and how it shows one's heart's desire.

At this point Harry has said that he has wanted to go to GH for some time now. JK stated on her website that when a secret keeper dies, the secret dies with him. Since Harry has been to GH, if his true heart’s desire is to see his and his parents’ home, then I wonder if he can achieve that goal, getting in-to GH by looking in the Mirror of Erised?

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 13, 2007 3:28 am (#509 of 594)

The charm protected the house that James and Lily lived in not the village itself. Harry should be able to find GH easily enough. He won't need the mirror.

Mickey

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Choices - Jul 13, 2007 8:43 am (#510 of 594)

I agree, Mickey.

I think Harry will get to Privet Drive the same way he always has - the Dursleys will pick him up. I do not think Ron and Hermione will go with him. I believe they will go to The Burrow to wait for Harry. He will either join them there when he leaves the Dursleys or they will meet him at Privet Drive when he departs and go with him to wherever he goes (Godric's Hollow).

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 13, 2007 9:36 am (#511 of 594)
Edited Jul 13, 2007 10:37 am

Since school let out a couple of weeks early, the Dursley's may not be expecting Harry so he may have to fend for himself getting to Privet Drive but I can't see the ministry, the order and his friends leaving him to his own device's for getting home.

Ron & Hermoione probably will go to the Burrow to wait for him but I don't think they will have to wait for long. Something will happen at #4 and the gang will all be together again. But that's just my opinion.

Mickey

P.S. It is nice to agree once and awhile Choices

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Choices - Jul 13, 2007 9:46 am (#512 of 594)
Edited Jul 13, 2007 10:47 am

:-) It is nice, Mickey.

I do think though, that Hogwarts would send out notices to all parents and guardians to let them know that the students are being dismissed early and what time the Hogwart's Express would be arriving. I believe the Dursleys will pick Harry up, or in lieu of that, the Order will see that he gets to Privet Drive safely.

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wynnleaf - Jul 13, 2007 10:01 am (#513 of 594)
Edited Jul 13, 2007 11:03 am

There's something on one of the book covers that relates to Harry being at Privet Dr. I don't want to do a spoiler for anyone avoiding reading the book covers. If you're interested, look it up. Sorry, I haven't looked it up in several weeks.

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Solitaire - Jul 14, 2007 4:18 pm (#514 of 594)

The charm protected the house that James and Lily lived in not the village itself.

I agree. After all, isn't GH a Muggle village?

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 14, 2007 6:58 pm (#515 of 594)
Edited Jul 14, 2007 7:59 pm

He will certainly be able to find the village, but he needs to go back to the house. That is where it all began.

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Hagsquid - Jul 16, 2007 5:23 am (#516 of 594)

Is it possible to break a Fidelius charm? Maybe Voldemort undid the charm when he went to kill Harry.

I only say this because Hagrid was able to enter the house to get Harry when he was a baby. Obviously Hagrid had not been told where it was, or he would have known that it was Peter (and not Sirius) who had betrayed the Potters.

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Denise P. - Jul 16, 2007 5:47 am (#517 of 594)

I would think that once the Potters were killed, the charm was invalid.

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Hagsquid - Jul 16, 2007 6:24 am (#518 of 594)

Definitely makes sense huh? Especially if one of them cast the charm.

Which invites yet another question . . .

Assuming DD cast the charm on the Headquarters of the Order, then does that mean that it no longer has the protection? If someone else did, it likely would have been Sirius until he died. I wonder if there's a new caster, and I wonder if that means they'll be needing a new secret keeper.

Man. I really hope she addresses that.

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legolas returns - Jul 16, 2007 10:07 am (#519 of 594)

I thought that it said on JKR’s site that the secret dies with the keeper.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 16, 2007 10:08 am (#520 of 594)

I had a thought that perhaps Privet will have been invaded by Big V and the DEs and Harry will go to GH after finding 4PD in ruins.

wynnleaf, not sure what you mean by the book cover and how it relates to 4PD.

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Hagsquid - Jul 16, 2007 10:44 am (#521 of 594)

I thought that it said on JKR’s site that the secret dies with the keeper.

Yes, but it specifically states that those who knew the secret before the keeper was killed still know it, and those who don't can't get it from others who know it.

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Hagsquid - Jul 17, 2007 2:49 pm (#522 of 594)

Q: “What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?”

A: “ I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is what you want to know! When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else. “

Actually, after re-reading it, it doesn't say what I thought it said. It only said that those who know will still know and those who don't still won't. It does not say anywhere that the secret can't be divulged after the secret keeper dies.

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Solitaire - Jul 17, 2007 5:47 pm (#523 of 594)

The SK for Godric's Hollow hasn't died, has he?

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shepherdess - Jul 17, 2007 5:56 pm (#524 of 594)

No; and he owes Harry a life debt.

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Hagsquid - Jul 17, 2007 8:01 pm (#525 of 594)

Right, sorry. I think I got moved off in the direction of Secret Keepers in general.

*wanders off to find the other thread*

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Post  Lady Arabella on Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:31 am


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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 17, 2007 8:57 pm (#526 of 594)
Edited Jul 17, 2007 9:59 pm

Wow, after all these years and all these discussions, it has only now dawned on me! The secret keeper for GH IS alive, the GH secret keeper owes Harry a life debt! Duhhh.

So, to get to GH Harry doesn't need extraordinary help from Ron-Hermione need but from the traitor, Pettigrew!

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Potter Ace - Jul 19, 2007 11:14 am (#527 of 594)

But isn't the spell broken for all who do not know if the SK breaks the vow and tell someone? Or is it just the person whom he tells.

It must be all because how did Hagrid pick Harry up in the aftermath, if he had not already known?

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Choices - Jul 19, 2007 2:40 pm (#528 of 594)
Edited Jul 19, 2007 3:42 pm

Hagrid knowing where to go to get Harry is what tells me that the secret is broken when those covered by the charm are no longer alive. The charm is covering people who no longer exist - I believe death is a charm breaker.

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zelmia - Jul 19, 2007 3:13 pm (#529 of 594)

Peter Pettigrew was also a member of the Order (or a member of the Order first, if you like). I'm sure there must have been times where he mentioned the Potters' hiding place to other Order members (Harry's christening maybe, just as an example). But because everyone believed Sirius to be the Secret Keeper, they weren't aware that Peter was actually revealing the Secret about the Potters.

But since we know that a written message works to reveal the Secret (OP), Peter could have simply given Hagrid (for example) a note about the Potters. Hagrid would naturally have assumed it was Sirius who had written the note and that Peter was merely giving Hagrid the message.

I hope this makes sense.

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Mediwitch - Jul 19, 2007 5:03 pm (#530 of 594)
Edited Jul 19, 2007 6:04 pm

So zelmia, if I understand correctly, you're saying that Peter could have revealed the Potter's hiding place to people without those people knowing he was the Secret Keeper? I don't think that would work, because if he weren't the SK, he would not be able to reveal it. Therefore, if he revealed their hiding place, he MUST be the SK as ONLY the SK could reveal it.

Snape and Bellatrix discussed this in HBP, Chapter 2 (Spinner's End) - she's furious because he claims he cannot reveal the headquarters of the Order. "I am not the Secret Keeper; I cannot reveal the name of the place."

The written note would have worked, but if Peter spoke the name of the hiding place, he would have revealed himself as the SK.

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zelmia - Jul 19, 2007 8:28 pm (#531 of 594)
Edited Jul 19, 2007 9:30 pm

The problem is not knowing exactly how the Fidelius Charm works. But I guess I'm assuming that once people know the Secret they could speak about it freely with others who know the Secret.

Sirius tells Harry, "I offered [12GP] to Dumbledore to use as Headquarters" (OP). If Harry had not already known the Secret (that the HQ of the OP was at 12 GP ... Hm! Catchy little rhythm there!) I don't see how Sirius could have said this to Harry.

We also know that a written note from the Secret Keeper is all that is needed to reveal the Secret, and that the Secret Keeper need not even be present in that case (OP). So, extrapolating on that somewhat, couldn't Peter have revealed the Secret to certain Order members (i.e. Hagrid, Dumbledore) through a note? And if so, those Order members would have believed it was from Sirius, since they all Sirius thought was the Secret Keeper. And that's really the key: that they believed the information had come from Sirius, who they believed was the SK.

The other thing is that it seems that they went into hiding specifically to protect Harry after the Prophecy was revealed. So if the Secret was that Harry Potter was at Godric's Hollow.... Well, maybe that doesn't make any difference, actually.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 19, 2007 10:09 pm (#532 of 594)

There were also muggles swarming around, according to Hagrid, which tells me that they at least would've been able to see the house and we know that the Potters were buried so someone was able to see the bodies and bury them, and Harry was able to be removed from the rubble by Hagrid so he could see the house, the bodies, and Harry. I'm betting that, like with the other example we've had of the Fidelius Charm, it was the house that was under the charm and that when it blew up the charm broke. If we look at our other example, "The headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London," so what would have happened if #12 had been blown up, wouldn't that have kinda made the secret being kept a moot point? I'd imagine the same would be true for the Potters' secret, that once the house was gone, the secret protecting it would be gone too.

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zelmia - Jul 20, 2007 12:18 am (#533 of 594)

That certainly makes sense, SE. It just seems like it's one of those "you have to say it exactly right" kind of things - like how Harry had to be really specific with Kreacher about what he wanted Kreacher to do, so Kreacher couldn't manipulate his words somehow.

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Mediwitch - Jul 20, 2007 8:02 am (#534 of 594)
Edited Jul 20, 2007 9:02 am

I see what you're saying now, zelmia. I thought you meant that Peter could chat about the secret to anyone in the Order, not just to those who already knew the secret. If he was talking about the secret to those who already knew it, he wouldn't actually be revealing it, so I think that's where I got off track of what you were saying.

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Deathly Hallows released on July 21st, 2007
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Mrs. Sirius - Aug 10, 2007 10:20 pm (#535 of 594)
Edited Aug 10, 2007 11:30 pm

“..For the first time since he had discovered that the sword in Gringotts was a fake, he felt excited. He was about to go home, about to return to the place where he had had a family. It was in Godric’s Hollow that, but for Voldemort, he would have grown p and spent every school holiday. He could have invited friends to his house…he might even have had brothers and sisters…” DH pg 321 Scholastic

Oh my heart breaks.

“He could see it: the Fidelius Charm must have died with James and Lily.” DH p. 332 Scholastic

# 1 So the Fidelius Charm dies when people it is designed to protect die?

When Sirius died, it seems the charm continued to work at 12GP. I know there were other protections on the place too, I understood thatat12 GP the charm was still in place and when Dumbledore dies, all the Order members it's secret keeper.

# 2 So what happened to Harry's parents’ home? If it is Fidelius-charm-free and visible, does Harry still own it? It was heavily damaged but could it not be repaired? Can he live there?

# 3 The bad smell in Bathilda's house, like meat gone bad, that was the decomposing body of Bathilda?

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Steve Newton - Aug 11, 2007 5:46 am (#536 of 594)

Sirius was never the subject of any Fidelius Charm that we know of. His death would have had no effect.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 11, 2007 8:08 am (#537 of 594)

On your #3, yes, Mrs. Sirius. I knew when I read that, the two were in trouble.

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zelmia - Aug 11, 2007 6:56 pm (#538 of 594)

Yeah, that passage is the first time Harry realizes how much he's actually lost. It's pretty moving.

Rotting meat is pretty good indication that one is in the presence of evil, eh? Too bad they don't have horror movies in the Wizarding World or Harry and Hermione might have remembered that.

Are there lots of wizards in GH? Or is it more like a place where people make sort of pilgramages? Because Hogsmeade is the only "all wizarding village".

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Solitaire - Aug 11, 2007 6:57 pm (#539 of 594)

I thought the bad smell was Voldemort .. rather like Quirrell's turban smelled foul (presumably because Voldy was back there hiding).

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Madam Pince - Aug 12, 2007 4:45 am (#540 of 594)
Edited Aug 12, 2007 5:46 am

I definitely got the impression it was Bathilda that was stinking up the place. And that the pile of "filthy laundry" on the dressing table which Harry notices right before Voldy appears is all that is left of her.

It could be confusing, though, because it's when he approaches near (what I assumed to be) Bathilda's remains, that is right when Nagini/Voldy pop out... and actually, now that I read it again, maybe the pile of "laundry" really is just laundry, because it says Harry fell into the pile, and if that was supposed to be Bathilda then surely... oh ewwww... that's just too gross....

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 1:36 pm (#541 of 594)

I got the impression that Bathilda was sort of like an Inferius - a reanimated corpse. Nagini inhabited her and then came out to attack Harry.

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Madam Pince - Aug 12, 2007 1:43 pm (#542 of 594)
Edited Aug 12, 2007 2:46 pm

Oh, ewwwww! That's even worse than I thought! Here I was thinking that the "Bathilda" interacting with Harry and Hermione was some sort of charm or polyjuice or something. So you're saying Nagini was inside Bathilda's re-animated corpse?!!! I'm getting soooo grossed out right now... (Don't do this to me right before dinner -- I was planning on cream of crab soup....)

Man, the movie-makers are going to have a field day with this scene...

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 1:53 pm (#543 of 594)
Edited Aug 12, 2007 2:54 pm

Madam Pince - "So you're saying Nagini was inside Bathilda's re-animated corpse?!!!"

“....panic made him turn and horror paralyzed him as he saw the old body collapsing and the great snake pouring from the place where her neck had been.”

Basically, I think Nagini knocks Bathilda's head off and comes out of her body through her neck. After that, Bathilda could definitely join the Headless Hunt.

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Madam Pince - Aug 12, 2007 2:04 pm (#544 of 594)
Edited Aug 12, 2007 3:08 pm

See, I just read that as if the charm was wearing off or that the snake just polyjuice-changed and it only appeared to be coming out her neck. I think you're right though. Total eww[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Ewwww, ewwww, ew[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I think my mind just must've refused to recognize what I was actually reading. I was reading very quickly, to find out what happened, and I haven't gotten there yet in my re-read, so I guess I skimmed it. Ewww, ewww, ewwwwwwww....

I refuse to even let my mind dwell on how Nagini got in there in the first place...

Oh! Just thought of another "movie foreshadowing" moment! At the very beginning of "Goblet of Fire" when Nagini slithers out of the mouth of the skull-gravestone marker!

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Solitaire - Aug 12, 2007 2:38 pm (#545 of 594)

Bathilda could definitely join the Headless Hunt. LOL Can't you just imagine this scene in the movie, when it gets here? I think this one will be terrifying.

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Holly T. - Aug 16, 2007 7:19 am (#546 of 594)

Son and I listened to this scene on the audiobook this morning in the car--in the dark and rain, so that added a nice spooky touch. When Harry enters the house and it smells bad and he's wondering what's up with Bathilda, son was calling out "because she's dead and the evil snake is about to jump out of her neck!" E[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Soul Search - Aug 16, 2007 4:31 pm (#547 of 594)
Edited Aug 16, 2007 5:33 pm

Something just occurred to me. Somewhat of a "heel-of-hand-to-forehead" thing.

In HBP, "The White Tower," Harry announces "I thought I might go back to Godric's Hollow, ..." Apparently, he had had the idea since Dumbledore's death. This "out of the blue" statement never made a lot of sense.

The subject of Godric's Hollow come up again in Deathly Hallows, "The Ghoul in Pajamas," but Hermione remarks "Don't you think there's a possibility that Voldemort's keeping a watch on Godric's Hollow?" (Good go Hermione. We are getting close.)

Then in "Bathilda's Secret" we discover Voldemort did, indeed, anticipate Harry at Godric's Hollow and had planted Nagini there to not only watch for him, but to hold him until Voldemort could arrive. His precious, Nagini? His last horcrux? Just on the off chance Harry would show up? No way! Voldemort knew Harry would be coming to Godric's Hollow.

Voldemort spent the last half of OotP planting a compulsion in Harry. Harry never did learn Occulmency.

Voldemort planted visiting Godric's Hollow in Harry's head.

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Choices - Aug 16, 2007 6:27 pm (#548 of 594)

I wouldn't be surprised.

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Mrs. Sirius - Aug 16, 2007 9:05 pm (#549 of 594)
Edited Aug 16, 2007 10:05 pm

There certainly is a possibility of that. But...

# 1 Voldemort fears the connection between him and Harry and did not want that connection to continue. Dumbldore said this to Harry.

# 2 As a reader of the book, I have been obsessed with the idea of Harry going back GH since at least book 5. At the end of HBP, Harry has many questions and a huge task ahead. He doesn't really have many clues as to how to face those questions. I think natural curiosity forces an intelligent Harry to want to see his home.

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Solitaire - Aug 18, 2007 9:30 pm (#550 of 594)
Edited Aug 18, 2007 10:32 pm

Harry almost seems to be more of a Legilimens in DH ... except that it is probably the remnant of soul in him that permits those incursions into Voldemort's mind. I found it interesting that Harry is able to control those visions--to make use of them--now that he knows what they are. He does manage to use Occlumency somewhat successfully at times, in DH ... when he needs to shut out Voldemort. The difference seems to be that he is the one making the decision. He isn't constantly hearing someone tell him he has to close his mind, yet not telling him what the heck is happening to him. Big difference, if you ask me!

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Post  Lady Arabella on Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:34 am


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legolas returns - Aug 19, 2007 4:31 am (#551 of 594)

There is also a change in Hermione’s attitude to Harry seeing these visions. At the beginning she tells him to block them out. By the end of the book she is telling him to go into Voldemort’s mind to find out where Voldemort is.

At the beginning of the book Harry can’t control dropping into the visions and he does not seem to be able to control things when he falls into Voldemorts mind after going to Godrics Hollow. I think things don’t really click until Dobby’s death. He understands what if means and what he has to do to turn down the "Voldemort Volume".

For him, the lure of the village lay in his parents' graves, the house where he narrowly escaped death, and in the person Bathilda Bagshot.

He was about to go home, about to return to the place where he had a family.

I think that Harry had never really grieved up to then for his parents or the life that he might have had. It was an important stage in him moving on.

Prior to going to Godric’s Hollow he wanted to speak to Bathilda about Dumbledore, but when he gets there all he wants to ask about is the sword.

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Xenophilius - Aug 19, 2007 5:00 am (#552 of 594)
Edited Aug 19, 2007 6:00 am

legolas returns - To quote Hermione "Times Change". They were in the middle of a battle and they needed to find Nagini. Using the connection was the only way to figure out where that snake was. Harry had gained control of the connection, but I don't know if Hermione knew of Harry's new ability.

The other interesting point it was his grief over Dobby's death that enabled him to finally control his connection with Voldemort. It was not freeing himself of emotion by using occlumency, but grief, a very powerful emotion, that did the trick. Dumbledore and Snape had it wrong.

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legolas returns - Aug 19, 2007 5:47 am (#553 of 594)

The grief he feels is powerful but it is a very positive emotion. It blocks Voldemorts hate/negative emotions.

It’s the same as producing a patronus. Lupin describes it as a happy memory but it seems to me that it is much more complicated than that. Sometimes it seems that Harry produces a partronus because thoughts of love-He thinks of his friends, he thinks of seeing his father. Another time he imagines Umbridge getting sacked. That isn’t a memory but something that he desires. In the final books he struggles but manages to produce a patronus by thinking that he is still alive and fighting-e.g I can still make a difference and get rid of Voldemort. People’s Patronuses can change to the same as the one they love-Tonks changed into a werewolf and Snapes into a Doe because he loved Lily.

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Mrs. Sirius - Aug 19, 2007 9:35 pm (#554 of 594)
Edited Aug 19, 2007 10:36 pm

Dobby's death had a tremendous effect on Harry and his self-control and focus, but I thought where he really got that ability to control his connection to Voldemort, was after he was captured by Greyback. Voldemort was intruding in his mind but Harry had to focus and stay in the moment for his and everyone else's safety.

“As Voldemort's anger throbbed inside him, Harry's scar threatened to burst with pain, and he wrenched his mind back to his own body, fighting to remain present as the prisoners were pushed over gravel” DH, p 456 (Sch).

Harry knew that he and his friends were in this predicament because he lost his temper and said the name.

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zelmia - Aug 20, 2007 9:47 am (#555 of 594)

I don't necessarily agree that "Dumbledore and Snape got it wrong". That method clearly worked for Snape, who strikes me as someone who believes that ever showing emotion is 'weak' under any circumstances. Harry just got there by a different method, in my opinion.

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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 23, 2008 11:05 pm (#556 of 594)

In DH when Harry and Hermione visit (finally) GH on Christmas Eve, they pass a church, and hear the singing inside, I wonder, GH is a town where muggles and wizard folk live, were there both wizard kind and muggles sitting there in pray and celebration?

When Harry passes and sees his parents’ home, it states Harry figured the Fidelius Charm was broken. In PS/SS Hagrid says something about getting Harry out before the muggles started to swarm the place, is that because the Fidelius Charm was broken. Because I believe that muggles can't see the house now.

Harry mentions that some damage done by magic cannot be repaired, does that mean that the house is irreparable? Does Harry now permanently live at GP? So who "owns" GH? Harry or wizard society?

Who else lives in GH? While Harry and Hermione walk around the cemetery it said Harry saw "Abbot" a name he recognized from Hogwarts. As he continued to walk he saw other names he recognized, it doesn't mention those other names, why not.

I love this chapter, I have really waited and looked forward to the chapter were Harry goes home and sees him home. JK doesn't disappoint.

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zelmia - Feb 24, 2008 1:09 am (#557 of 594)

Who else lives in GH? While Harry and Hermione walk around the cemetery it said Harry saw "Abbot" a name he recognized from Hogwarts. As he continued to walk he saw other names he recognized, it doesn't mention those other names, why not.

- Mrs Sirius, I think in the chapter that is made up primarily of Rita Skeeter's book about Dumbledore, she talks about "pockets of old wizarding families" who settled in certain areas and Godric's Hollow was one of the places. She also lists several family names.

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Solitaire - Feb 25, 2008 7:08 am (#558 of 594)

I thought GH was a village. Can someone own a village? About the house ... Even if the Fidelius Charm was broken back when James and Lily were killed, another charm could have been put in place, so that the remains of the house now stand as a memorial which is seen only by Wizards. That is how I interpreted it.

Solitaire

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haymoni - Feb 25, 2008 1:18 pm (#559 of 594)

That's what I thought also, Solitaire.

I was happy to read that the house was left as it was - like a tribute. It was how I always imagined it.

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Orion - Feb 26, 2008 8:30 am (#560 of 594)

Why didn't the muggles do anything about the building lot? Even if there is a known owner, and the Potters or Dumbledore's family or anybody who owned the place, had an entry in the land register, somebody would have rebelled in the village if a site had been empty for years. Somebody always wants to build a house. Do wizards and witches have entries in the land register?

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Madam Pince - Feb 26, 2008 10:57 am (#561 of 594)

I got the impression that the Potter house (or the Dumbledore house, whichever...) was sort of like 12 GP in that the muggles couldn't see it -- they couldn't see the memorial, etc. It's a wizarding locale in the middle of a muggle village -- the muggle houses are all around it, but they wouldn't see the "empty lot" or whatever, or even be aware of any goings-on there (like the muggle dwellings on either side of 12 GP.)

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haymoni - Feb 26, 2008 11:04 am (#562 of 594)

Yup - that's what I thought also.

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Orion - Feb 26, 2008 11:06 am (#563 of 594)

Aah. A somebody else's problem field.

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Madam Pince - Feb 27, 2008 9:09 am (#564 of 594)

I'm not sure I'm understanding you, Orion. It wouldn't be a problem field at all, because they (the muggles) wouldn't even see it. They'd just see one lovely (muggle) occupied house lot right beside another lovely (muggle) occupied house lot -- no hint of the destroyed house in-between. Or are you responding to someone else's post? Sorry, I'm probably being dense or too literal or something...

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Orion - Feb 27, 2008 9:53 am (#565 of 594)

Madam Pince, I was referring to the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy books by Douglas Adams. It's a popular/legendary series of ironic, very, very, funny science fiction with a twisted kind of humour. It plays not only on Earth, but in the whole of the Galaxy. In one of the later books of the series a kind of "charm" is mentioned, although blatant magic is not part of the Hitchhiker's universe. The "charm" makes objects invisible by rendering them thoroughly uninteresting, a bit like the Leaky Cauldron, which is visible to muggles, but so inconspicuous that they just don't look in its direction. (In my opinion a Douglas Adams’ nod by Rowling.)

In the Hitchhiker's book, the “Somebody Else's Problem Field” works like that: A wise old man from another planet has just parked his spaceship on Earth. But the people from Earth cannot see it because the wise old man had his ship designed like a run-down pizza bistro, thus ensuring that everybody's eyes made a curious detour round it and so never saw it. Sorry for being obscure, but Douglas Adams fanatics always think everybody is like that!

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Madam Pince - Feb 27, 2008 10:37 am (#566 of 594)

Gotcha! (See, I told you I was being dense... ) I've not gotten around to reading Hitchhiker's yet...

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Anna L. Black - Feb 27, 2008 2:07 pm (#567 of 594)

Madam Pince, if that helps - I didn't recognize the reference even though I read the whole Hitchhiker's series....

But yes, Godric's Hollow is a very interesting wizarding village, indeed!

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Soul Search - Jul 21, 2008 10:06 am (#568 of 594)
Edited Jul 21, 2008 11:10 am

A discussion started on the series read-a-long thread about the events of Godric's Hollow and mention was also made for using existing topics for spin-off discussions. I thought I would try shifting the read-a-long discussion here. We might even consider moving this thread, temporarily, to near the read-along topic list, perhaps to emphasis that the current discussion is related.

Anyway, this picks up from the read-along with a discussion that started around post #224 and went, not continuously, to post #245.

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Dumbledore seems to have moved rather quickly after Voldemort killed the Potters. We have seen Dumbledore act before, for example when Mr. Weasley was attacked by Nagini in OotP. There, he used the instruments in his office and directed the portraits to gather information. Dumbledore quickly assessed the situation and acted accordingly.

Even with that, I wonder if Dumbledore didn't already have plans made. He did know enough to have developed a contingincy plan.

Dumbledore knew the whole prophecy.

Dumbledore knew, from Snape, Voldemort planned to go after Harry Potter, who fit the prophecy.

He also knew Voldemort hadn't "marked anyone as his equal" so the prophecy event could not occur. That is, Voldemort could not kill Harry at this time.

The only way Voldemort would allow Harry to live was if Voldemort, himself, died.

Dumbledore knew Voldemort had made at least one horcrux, so would be back to fulfil the prophecy.

Dumbledore knew someone close to the Potters was a traitor, and could eventually betray their location. He didn't know it was specifically Pettigrew and that Pettigrew had been made the secret keeper, but he knew the Potters were still at risk. Even if Sirius had been made secret keeper, Pettigrew would have known that and would have been in on the secret. We learned in Deathly Hallows that all Pettigrew would have to do is kill Sirius then he could have told Voldemort where the Potters were.

He knew the Potters, and that they both would give their lives protecting Harry. He might have even known Lily would protect Harry in such a way as to invoke the "mother's blood protection."

He knew Petunia was Lily's sister. He could have previously found out she had married, had a son, and where she currently lived.

I am saying it is possible, even likely, that Dumbledore had worked out a likely scenario for events surrounding Harry and had been well prepared to act. He had everything in place, awaiting Voldemort's attack on the Potters.

Given such a plan Dumbledore's actions of Halloween and the next day seem more reasonable.

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PeskyPixie - Jul 21, 2008 10:16 am (#569 of 594)

Dumbledore knew the whole prophecy.

Dumbledore knew, from Snape, Voldemort planned to go after Harry Potter, who fit the prophecy.

He also knew Voldemort hadn't "marked anyone as his equal" so the prophecy event could not occur. That is, Voldemort could not kill Harry at this time.

The only way Voldemort would allow Harry to live was if Voldemort, himself, died.


I had figured as much. The rest of your points make sense as well.

The following is not canon, but I had also assumed that Dumbledore put some sort of alarm charm on the house so he would know if/when Voldy had entered ... but I'm not sure whether that fits the timeline or not.

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Soul Search - Jul 21, 2008 10:28 am (#570 of 594)

PeskyPixie,

Yes, Dumbledore did need some mechanism for quickly knowing the expected events had occurred, but I don't see how an "Alarm Charm" would have worked. Dumbledore was not in on the secret so would not have known where to place his charm. Likewise, he couldn't have directed a team to continuously watch the Potters because neither he nor they knew where the Potters were.

Yet Dumbledore did quickly know what had happened.

We know Dumbledore had met with the Potters, or at least James, shortly before the Fidelius charm was performed since Lily mentions in her letter to Sirius that Dumbledore had James' cloak. My guess is Dumbledore placed charms on James and/or Lily so he would know when they died. A bit gruesome, but it works.

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Julia H. - Jul 21, 2008 10:41 am (#571 of 594)

I think DD knew where the Potters were and others in the Order (watchers?) may have known as well. The Fidelius Charm only meant that they could not tell others the name of the place but if they were in on the secret before the charm was put on the place, they probably continued to know it afterwards. However, only the SK was able to tell others from that moment on. That is how I understand it. DD definitely had some connection with the Potters. (He borrowed the Cloak).

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PeskyPixie - Jul 21, 2008 10:47 am (#572 of 594)

Maybe Bathilda Bagshot was supposed to keep Dumbledore informed of the Potters' situation during their period of hiding? She was in on their whereabouts, wasn't she? Or was that before the Fidelius Charm was cast?

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Quinn Crockett - Jul 21, 2008 11:48 am (#573 of 594)

That's what I think too, Pesky.

Lily's letter to Sirius makes it sound like the Fidelius Charm has already been rendered at the time of her writing, since she specifically mentions James's restlessness at not being able to go out, and also that Dumbledore has his Cloak. This coincides with what Dumbledore tells Harry in "King's Cross" - that he had borrowed the Cloak a few days before James and Lily died - and also Fudge's recollection in PA that the Charm had been rendered "about a week" before they were killed.

But Lily's letter also refers to Bathilda's periodic visits in the present ("Bathilda drops by most days") which sounds to me like Bathilda was able to come by even after the Charm was in place. If Wormtail was not known to be the SK, it seems to me he could easily have found a way to reveal to Bathlida the Secret in such a way as not to make it seem like that was what he was doing. For that matter, he could have done this for anyone in the Order - including anyone on guard that night.

Without knowing the specifics of the Fidelius Charm or any required wording, it is, of course, difficult to say precisely how "Wormy" might have achieved this. But we know that the secret can be revealed through a written note as long as the note is in the SK's own hand. A casual mention in a letter via owl might have done the trick?

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Solitaire - Jul 21, 2008 12:54 pm (#574 of 594)
Edited Jul 21, 2008 1:58 pm

Pesky, from Lily's letter, it seems Bathilda was visiting them regularly while they were in hiding. Even though she was not the SK, she could still know where they were ... just not reveal it. Sirius obviously is able to visit, since Lily invites him in her letter. It sounds like people came and went, just as they did in GP, even though they were not SKs.

Hagrid says he needs to get Harry out before the Muggles start swarming all over the house ... which sounds like it was visible at that moment. Yet when Harry and Hermione visit GH at Christmastime, in DH, anti-Muggle charms seem to be around the spot where the house was, thereby protecting it as a memorial.

Hm ... even after it's all over, we still need more information!

Solitaire

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Julia H. - Jul 21, 2008 3:43 pm (#575 of 594)

Lots of people came and go at 12GP as well despite the Fidelius Charm. Not only order members, since under-age kids were in on the secret, too. Kreacher had known the address long before the Fidelius Charm started to operate, he had also lived there but I don't think he suddenly forgot the address because of the charm. (He certainly found his way back after his visit to the Malfoys at Christmas.) The only thing that seems to be the privilege of the SK is revealing the secret to someone who does not know it yet. I am not sure how Pettigrew could have done that without also revealing that he was the SK but I guess DD had known the place before, Bathilda must have known the place before, Sirius also must have known the place since he was to be the SK for a while and I think they all remembered even after the charm was performed.

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Solitaire - Jul 21, 2008 3:54 pm (#576 of 594)

Apparently, since they do know the place, they can look at where it is supposed to be, and they finally see it. Have Harry and the kids been been included among the SKs of 12GP? We know that Harry had not been back since Sirius's death ... and I wonder whether the kids were included in the new SK situation that Moody set up. Perhaps having seen DD's original note, that was enough.

Perhaps Voldemort did not know where, exactly, the Potters were living ... until SK Wormtail either told him or wrote it down. BTW, I'm sure he told Voldy he was made SK. In fact, he probably even bragged about it ... to Voldy. He may have simply shown the address to Sirius and Bathilda, so that they could visit.

Solitaire

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Soul Search - Jul 21, 2008 4:01 pm (#577 of 594)
Edited Jul 21, 2008 5:11 pm

That Fidelius Charm gets in the way of a lot of our ideas. Anyone in on the secret would have known Pettigrew, not Sirius, was the secret keeper. Since Sirius stayed in Azkaban no one, especially Dumbledore, knew Pettigrew was the secret keeper. I think, though, there is another way it works.

In Deathly Hallows, "Bathilda's Secret," Voldemort is approaching the Potters' house and thinks:

"...and now his destination was in sight at last, the Fidelius Charm broken, though they did not know it yet ..."

The charm is broken, not just that Voldemort has been given the secret. So, anyone could see the house. Many wizards lived in Godric's Hollow so the house suddenly appearing would signal trouble. Bathilda Bagshot would be a good candidate for Dumbledore's watcher and she lived a short walk away.

The charm would have been "broken" before Voldemort left for Godric's Hollow, giving some additional warning time.

We also have the two kids. If they described the man that frightened them to their wizarding parents, it would have drawn attention to the house and provided another warning.

We have no canon information on how a Fidelius Charm is "broken," that is something more than revealing the secret to someone, but can accept the possibility. I do find it strange that James and Lily had no way of knowing the charm had been broken. Maybe overconfidence in the Fidelius Charm.

It also occurs to me that if Dumbledore had worked the situation out as previously described and he had set watchers on the house, he had to be pretty sure Lily and James were going to die. He had promised Snape he would try to protect Lily, but it doesn't seem he did all that much. His focus was on Harry, prophecy boy, not Lily. "Greater Good."

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Julia H. - Jul 21, 2008 4:15 pm (#578 of 594)

He had promised Snape he would try to protect Lily, but it doesn't seem he did all that much. (Soul Search)

Interestingly, we never actually see DD make that promise explicitly. Only his ... “what will you give me in return, Severus?”

The charm being broken is interesting. I guess this concept of the Fidelius Charm is introduced only in DH. Could it be only LV's way of saying that the protection was not working any more since the person against whom it was put there knew the secret now? Or would it be a stretch?

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Solitaire - Jul 21, 2008 4:31 pm (#579 of 594)
Edited Jul 21, 2008 5:31 pm

The charm is broken, not just that Voldemort has been given the secret. So, anyone could see the house.

I don't know if that works for me ... Dumbledore writes down the info about 12GP for Moody to show Harry, so that Harry is able to see the house. However, the Charm is still intact.

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tandaradei - Jul 21, 2008 5:09 pm (#580 of 594)
Edited Jul 21, 2008 6:10 pm

I think Soul Search has the idea. Maybe the Fidelius Charm is a sort of "Confundus Charm on enemies": it works unerringly unless the secret keeper performs an act of treachery, which renders it ineffective.

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Quinn Crockett - Jul 21, 2008 11:15 pm (#581 of 594)
Edited Jul 22, 2008 12:16 am

Well in certain a sense, the Secret had been "broken" since the Secret - however it might have been worded - was meant to protect them specifically from Voldemort. So, if he, above all people, knew the Secret, then for all intents and purposes the Secret had been broken. But perhaps it was literally broken as well.

But I understand too the idea that if the house suddenly appeared that would certainly raise alarm to anyone who knew the Potters were in hiding.

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megfox* - Jul 22, 2008 6:29 am (#582 of 594)
Edited Jul 22, 2008 7:31 am

But does the Fidelius Charm hide the whole house? There is a quote in one of the books (don't have access to them here at school) that "Voldemort could have his nose pressed up against their living room window and he still couldn't see them." This to me implies that while the house could be seen, the occupants could not. You would never know where James, Lily, and Harry were. They were the secret. They went into hiding, not their house. So Voldemort must have known where the house was, he just couldn't see the specific occupants.

However, in the case of Grimmauld Place, the location of Headquarters was the secret, so then the whole house needed to be hidden. They (Death Eaters) obviously all knew that was where the Order was staying, and also where the kids would go. The secret was created so that they couldn't get it. We see this in DH - DE were hanging out, waiting for Harry, Hermione or Ron to reveal where the house was. They couldn't see the house because 1) it was concealed by the secret, and 2) it was unplottable (I think). They already knew it was there, they just couldn't see it - like Voldemort couldn't see James, Lily, and Harry.

That's just the way I see it. The secret can be many different things, depending on what needs to be hidden. I think that the bigger issue (which I don't really care about as much as some other people do) is that JKR made a mistake when explaining it in the book. However, I am sure there is some canon that proves what I wrote above wrong.

These discussions make my head hurt as much as Time-turners!

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Soul Search - Jul 22, 2008 6:58 am (#583 of 594)

Good pickup, Julia H. I re-read that part and didn't pick up on Dumbledore not actually promising Snape anything. Gives credence to the idea he knew James and Lily had to die. At the end of PS Dumbledore tells Harry he wouldn't lie, but he avoided Harry's most important question -- why was Voldemort out to kill Harry. We see that Dumbledore avoids a direct lie and he also avoided telling Snape Lily was going to die. Tricky.

So, I think we have answered some of the questions we had about Godric's Hollow:

How did Dumbledore move so quickly with the right actions?

Prior to the events of Godric's Hollow, Dumbledore had done research and had a plan worked out. He received an early warning from someone, maybe Bathilda Bagshot, when the Fidelius Charm was broken and set his plan into motion.

How did the wizarding world know Voldemort was "dead?"

Godric's Hollow locals knew Voldemort was after the Potters and the destroyed house said he had been there. Investigating, they found his wand and maybe his cloak. Everything was left as it was. Locals may have met Sirius who told them Harry had survived Voldemort's attack. All the owls were spreading the word that Voldemort was dead and Harry had survived his attack. Some owls were to Dumbledore to confirm that Harry was alive (locals did not actually see Harry. Hagrid was too quick for them.) Dumbledore also knew that Voldemort could not be alive if Harry survived because Voldemort was really after Harry.

How did anyone know Voldmeort would be back?

Only Dumbledore really knew this because only he knew about Voldmeort's horcrux(s). Those close to Dumbledore believed him, others didn't.

This helps. I think we can work out the rest, although we won't know some details, like where did Hagrid first take Harry.

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Quinn Crockett - Jul 22, 2008 8:09 am (#584 of 594)
Edited Jul 22, 2008 9:12 am

On Snape's promise of "anything": Dumbledore is offering a deal. He'll do his best to protect Lily in return for Snape's loyalty. Though Dumbledore doesn't say this outright, the terms are made pretty clear to both parties. Still, it's true that Dumbledore never actually says, "Yes, I'll do what I can" or similar. I think he must have known that, unless he would be made Secret Keeper, the Potters were essentially doomed.

I don't think we'll ever be able to work out an entirely comprehensive version of what happened that Halloween night - at least not until JKR fully explains the specifics of the Fidelius Charm to us. But I think Soul Search has it down as far as we can go without that information.

So, since JKR tells us in an interview that Wormtail retrieved Voldemort's wand, does that mean he went there before or after he met Sirius in the street?

Also, how did he know Sirius would be there "in the street" at that time? Everyone thinks Wormtail "caught up with" Sirius (even though it was the other way around). But how did that meeting actually transpire? How did Sirius know Pettigrew would be there? Or was it simply that Pettigrew took advantage of the confrontation to save his own hide?

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Soul Search - Jul 22, 2008 8:44 am (#585 of 594)
Edited Jul 22, 2008 9:52 am

The Fidelius Charm could have been on the house or on the Potters, but the "early warning from the 'broken' charm" idea works either way. Voldemort also makes a point of seeing the Potters through the window: "They had not drawn the curtains; he saw them quite clearly in their little sitting room; ..."

The house suddenly appearing would be an alarm, but actually seeing the Potters through the window would be even more so. Either way works.

We also have to allow that the secret keeper can "break" the Fidelius Charm, that is completely remove it. This actually makes sense since you wouldn't want the charm to be in effect forever.

I think Pettigrew had to have retrieved Voldemort's wand after PoA. He had no use for it before that, and knew he would need something to show his dedication when he encountered Voldemort. I just don't know how Pettigrew knew where to look, made the journey (As a Rat?,) nor how he found him. Quite an accomplishment, actually.

My thought has always been that Sirius knew where Pettigrew might be, or where he would eventually go. We don't know what "street," but it was likely the street where Pettigrew lived or where Voldemort was, or something like that. Sirius just went there and waited, but Pettigrew had anticipated the confrontation and was prepared, acting too quickly for Sirius. Sirius, obviously, had underestimated Pettigrew.

Part of this comes from Sirius' statement to Hagrid that he wouldn't be needing the motorcycle; Sirius knew where he had to go and what he had to do.

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Orion - Jul 22, 2008 8:58 am (#586 of 594)

I always thought the Secret Keeper was unable to tell the location of the house under a Fidelius Charm. Yet Peter can tell the location of the Potters' house without a problem. Which part of it did I get wrong?

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Julia H. - Jul 22, 2008 9:01 am (#587 of 594)
Edited Jul 22, 2008 10:27 am

On Snape's promise of "anything": Dumbledore is offering a deal. (Quinn)

That is what we have all assumed probably and so did Snape. Or we can assume DD says the explicit words sometime later - the conversation is not likely to end with Snape's Anything. But now, with Soul Search's ideas, it seems to be a bit more notable that DD may avoid an explicit promise though I understand that he does not take hope away from Snape - that would be cruel. I have only noticed that there is no explicit promise because that is what Snape seems to be hoping for very much: some reassurance that DD will indeed "keep her safe". (Of course, even without an explicit promise, DD is Snape's best hope to save Lily so Snape will make his promise and fulfill his part of the "deal" anyway.)

EDIT: I always thought the Secret Keeper was unable to tell the location of the house under a Fidelius Charm. Yet Peter can tell the location of the Potters' house without a problem. Which part of it did I get wrong? (Orion)

As far as I understand, only the SK is able to give anyone information about the location of the place under this charm. That is why choosing the right SK is so important. That is how Harry learns about 12GP from DD's written words. The others who are in on the secret cannot tell it. That is how Snape explains (to Bella) why he cannot say the address of Headquarters (Spinner's End). I wonder what happens when someone tries...

(In a totally different book I read about a group of - let's say - wizards and witches deciding to keep something in secret with a sort of charm. They said the first and the second time one of them wanted to tell the secret, the person's speech would become temporarily unintelligible but should someone try it for the third time, they would suffer permanent damage. As it happened, someone overheard the whole discussion and rushed to tell the secret to another person - and then it turned out the charm worked on her as well, so she could not say anything intelligible until she gave up trying to tell the secret. It was funny. I wonder if something like that would happen if someone other than the SK tried to tell someone the secret.)

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Orion - Jul 22, 2008 9:32 am (#588 of 594)

If DD had really wanted to keep the Potters safe, the safest place would not have been a little cottage in some godforsaken village but Hogwarts. Without Draco and his dirty little (ok, desperate for the fates of his parents) mind there would have been no mended Vanishing Cabinet and nobody would have been able to touch them. They could have hidden in the ROR, if Slytherins (Death Nibblers) would have been a threat. Why does DD leave them out there in the wilderness?

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Julia H. - Jul 22, 2008 9:38 am (#589 of 594)
Edited Jul 22, 2008 10:39 am

So that we could have a story in seven books?

Although if they don't even want him for their SK, would they want to move into his school?

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Steve Newton - Jul 22, 2008 11:18 am (#590 of 594)

It seems that Dumbledore had no real knowledge of the ROR until told of the DA activity. He may have been bluffing when he told Harry about the chamber pot room but I tend to think not. The seven-book answer works for me too.

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Solitaire - Jul 22, 2008 11:21 am (#591 of 594)

I think Pettigrew had to have retrieved Voldemort's wand after PoA.

You may be right, although JKR herself said in a post-DH Q & A session that he retrieved it from the house at GH.

I think it was Pettigrew who made sure he was "found" by Sirius, so that he could stage his own murder. Didn't one of the characters say he had his wand behind his back when he blasted that street open? It could have been because he didn't want anyone to notice the finger he'd already removed before Sirius came on the scene.

I always thought the Secret Keeper was unable to tell the location of the house under a Fidelius Charm.

Orion, the SK is the only person who can reveal the secret. Remember Snape telling Bella (Spinner's End) that he could not give away the headquarters of the Order, because he was not the SK? Okay, I see Julia has also explained this. Sorry ... I write as I go through the posts.

Julia, I have always believed there was some sort of "force" that physically stops anyone who is not the SK from revealing the secret. What you mention about people who should not do so trying to reveal a secret makes sense.

Orion, I think we have to work within the parameters we have. If the Potters had set things up with DD as SK, they might not have died at that time, but as long as Voldy had his Horcruxes, they would still have to be destroyed before he could be destroyed. Wasn't it Harry's survival of the curse and the odd "behavior" of his scar that helped DD figure out how to defeat Voldy? If Harry had never been AK'd, it is possible he might have gone on indefinitely.

Solitaire

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azi - Jul 22, 2008 12:04 pm (#592 of 594)

It could have been because he didn't want anyone to notice the finger he'd already removed before Sirius came on the scene. – Soli

I always thought he did that so witnesses would see the curse come from Sirius' direction and assume it was Sirius who cast it. Then, before the smoke cleared from the blast, Wormtail cut his finger off and transformed.

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Solitaire - Jul 22, 2008 12:08 pm (#593 of 594)

Could be, Azi. I just think he might have cut off the finger ahead of time, so he could scream in private, and then dropped it so it would be found. But I'm not married to the idea. I agree that he wanted it to look as though Sirius cast the curse.

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Quinn Crockett - Jul 22, 2008 7:29 pm (#594 of 594)

Why does DD leave them out there in the wilderness? – Orion

Orion, Dumbledore can only advise people to act. He cannot force them to do as he wishes, however sage his counsel. But there is certainly something in Aberforth's assertion that "people close to Albus end up dead!" Perhaps James and Lily thought similarly, hence their decision not to use Dumbledore as SK.

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