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Post  Potteraholic on Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:16 pm

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. It was copied/saved by Lady Arabella and reformatted/reposted by Potteraholic. ~Potteraholic


Madame Pomfrey - Jun 8, 2006 6:37 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 4, 2007 2:58 am

On another thread there has been a discussion about the Green potion in the basin. There is speculation that it is DoLD, which led to a question of what color the potion is actually supposed to be. This thread can be used to discuss all potions.
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Potions      Empty Potions (posts #1 to #40)

Post  Potteraholic on Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 9, 2006 12:31 pm (#1 of 119)

Because I am a pretty firm believer that Dumbledore is not dead, I think Dumbledore may be under the influence of DoLD. In the chapter The Half Blood Prince Harry's final instructions were to stir counter-clockwise till the potion turned clear as water, however the basin contents were green. We have seen numerous potions classes where the potions the students were making turned a different color because they either forgot to add or added an ingredient not called for. So, what I have been pondering about lately is the possibility that Voldemort altered the potion DoLD to give it its green color by adding an ingredient to cause extreme thirst, so that its drinker would have to drink the cave water and awake the Inferi.

We know very little about the DoLD but what we do know is that it's a sleeping draught so strong it makes the person appear dead and its ingredients are wormswood and asphodel.

Someone awhile back did research on these ingredients and found out that one of the side effects was hallucination. I can't find the thread on which this discussion took place, so if anyone remembers please let me know.

According to Dumbledore,” Lord Voldemort would not want to kill the person who reached this island." Then Dumbledore corrected himself and said "I should have said ,he would not want to immediately kill the person who reached this island." "He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defenses and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin." This tells me that Voldemort would personally kill the person after questioning them. Dumbledore said that Voldemort would not feel when a horcrux was destroyed, so how soon would Voldemort find out about the cave horcrux that is missing? It could be years because apparently he doesn't know the original locket was taken. I think the Inferi are there to preserve that person which is why Voldemort made it imperative that the person drink the cave water and alert them.




zelmia - Jun 9, 2006 1:34 pm (#2 of 119)

I like that idea, Mme. P. Unfortunately, however, Snape did AK Dumbledore on the Tower. So even though the Potion didn't kill him, Snape most certainly did.




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 9, 2006 2:40 pm (#3 of 119)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 3:44 pm

Zelmia, that's another can of worms. On the "Was the major death real?" thread there has been speculation that Snape didn't actually use the AK curse, so didn't kill Dumbledore, but I won't get into that here. I’d like to hear your thoughts about that over on the above-mentioned thread though.

I am currently looking for possible missed potion clues, hopefully an ingredient that turns a potion green. Anyone recall anything?




virginiaelizabeth - Jun 9, 2006 3:18 pm (#4 of 119)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 4:21 pm

Ok well we cannot be sure that the potion isn't green once completed, because we have never seen it totally finished before.

"We have a little over an hour left to us, which should be time for you to make a decent attempt at the Draught of Living Death." (Sluggy HBP 188)

So the clear we see from Harry is perfect for the stage he was at, he never finishes the potion, so for all we know the final product is green. This is also just after the halfway point, but not too neat the end. According to HBP it's ideal half-way stage was the lilac color, then you stir it and it turns clear, which was the point at which we see Sluggy stop everyone, so it sounds to me like the potion was only about 1/2-way finished.

I also find it interesting that the potion "glowed". Even if it was just green, would it glow? I think that the green glow was a slight deviation from the recipe for DoLD, so that Voldemort would be able to find the island again. If there was no light of any kind, it would have been extremely hard to find the island and the basin.

Someone awhile back did research on these ingredients and found out that one of the side effects was hallucination. I can't find the thread on which this discussion took place, so if anyone remembers please let me know. MP

Where are they getting the info from? It's not in the books, so we can't say that what they did was canon. Did JKR say something about it in an interview?




haymoni - Jun 9, 2006 3:37 pm (#5 of 119)

Maybe he cracked one of those green glow sticks and tossed the contents into the basin.




Choices - Jun 9, 2006 5:46 pm (#6 of 119)

The color of the potion is interesting in that we have the AK which is identified by a "jet of green light" and the potion is green. Maybe green is just indicative of how lethal something is. The basilisk was green and so was Rita Skeeter's quill. Slytherin colors are green and silver and Fudge's hat is lime green. I think anything green needs to be watched carefully - it could be dangerous.




virginiaelizabeth - Jun 9, 2006 5:50 pm (#7 of 119)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 6:51 pm

Maybe he cracked one of those green glow sticks and tossed the contents into the basin. haymoni

Maybe so haymoni! They are non-toxic!

That is interesting Choices! I think we should definitely keep that in mind!




virginiaelizabeth - Jun 9, 2006 8:08 pm (#8 of 119)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 9:08 pm

Ok I did a bit of research on the ingredients that we know of in DoLD.

• asphodel- Traditionally associated with the afterlife/underworld
• Wormwood- Symbol of bitterness
• valerian root- Latin for 'valere' which means "to be in health". Used to help ease sleep, but there are no known side effects other than dizziness(which comes from fatigue)
• sopophorous bean- Latin for "sopor" or "deep sleep"
• some of this came from the Lex, but others I just Googled, I trust no one here is going to turn me in for plagiarism?

Ok so most of these ingredients cause sleep in some form, so that makes sense (obviously). I haven't found any side effects to any of these such as hallucination and what not. Feel free to add to this if you fin anything else out!




Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 9, 2006 8:21 pm (#9 of 119)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 9:54 pm

There was bit of research done on Draught of the Living Death done in the HBP Literary Symbolism thread last month during the course of which the ingredients were discussed.

Asphodel and Wormwood were discussed in these posts:

• Nathan Zimmermann, "+ A Treasure Hunt: Looking for Literary Symbolism in HBP" #862, 10 May 2006 5:39 pm
• Phoenix, "+ A Treasure Hunt: Looking for Literary Symbolism in HBP" #863, 11 May 2006 8:37 am

Valerian was discussed in these two posts:

• Round Pink Spider, "+ A Treasure Hunt: Looking for Literary Symbolism in HBP" #853, 7 May 2006 10:49 am
• Nathan Zimmermann, "+ A Treasure Hunt: Looking for Literary Symbolism in HBP" #854, 7 May 2006 4:46 pm respectively.

The Sopophorous Beans were never directly discussed in the apart from making a connection between the concepts of sleep and death that began with this post.

• Nathan Zimmermann, "+ A Treasure Hunt: Looking for Literary Symbolism in HBP" #825, 27 Apr 2006 11:17 pm




zelmia - Jun 9, 2006 9:11 pm (#10 of 119)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 10:13 pm

Okay well I guess I don't understand. Do you mean that the Basin Potion would have killed Dumbledore if Snape hadn't done it? Certainly Dumbledore was looking for Snape's immediate intervention.




Choices - Jun 10, 2006 9:17 am (#11 of 119)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 10:19 am

More in reference to post #6 - Another thing with a deep green color is the potion the "brains" were floating in the Dept. of Mysteries in OotP. The brain definitely proved dangerous to Ron.




virginiaelizabeth - Jun 10, 2006 11:34 am (#12 of 119)

I also think that is interesting Choices. It seemed to me that the potion in the cave was giving Dumbledore horrible thoughts, and the green potion for the brains was holding thoughts.




TheSaint - Jun 11, 2006 3:37 am (#13 of 119)

I love the association with Absinthe. That enough could make you hallucinate... LOL

My question though...

Is this the potion left by Voldie? If RAB has already been there, did he reset the scene? Who really put that potion there? If it was RAB, would he have put the same thing in the basin? Why replace the potion and then leave a message in the locket, how would Voldemort know something had changed? If the reason for the note was to let him know something had changed, why replace the potion at all? Or would you change the potion and make it glow?




virginiaelizabeth - Jun 11, 2006 9:37 am (#14 of 119)

That is interesting The Saint, I don't think that it changed, but that the basin eventually refilled itself. But then again, how would Voldemort know that someone stole his soul? Would RAB have wanted Voldemort to know that it had been stolen? I would guess no because then LV would make another one. But he also did leave that note. Ahhh so many questions, I'll have to think on this one some more.




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 11, 2006 7:20 pm (#15 of 119)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 8:34 pm

If the reason for the note was to let him know something had changed, why replace the potion at all? Or would you change the potion and make it glow?

I agree with Virginia, the potion refilled itself. What I think might have happened is R.A.B. retrieved the necklace, woke up after a spell (as Dumbledore did when the Inferi attacked Harry)then drank the water alerting the Inferi, who pulled him under. I think R.A.B. is the Inferi that jumped out of the water when Harry Accio'd the horcrux. Therefore, the horcrux locket is on the body and the locket at Grimmauld Place is red herring.

DoLD??? Possibly a "in Limbo" state that stays that way until a reversal spell is cast.




TheSaint - Jun 12, 2006 3:31 am (#16 of 119)

What I think might have happened is R.A.B. retrieved the necklace, woke up after a spell(as Dumbledore did when the Inferi attacked Harry)then drank the water alerting the Inferi, who pulled him under. I think R.A.B. is the Inferi that jumped out of the water when Harry Accio'd the horcrux. Therefore, the horcrux locket is on the body and the locket at Grimmauld Place is red herring.

I agree the locket at Grimmauld is pretty obvious, but I don't trust her not to throw us an easy one after torturing us for so long... lol.

You think RAB was alone? Why would the potion refill itself? RAB as the Inferi is just the grossest thought... lol.




geauxtigers - Jun 14, 2006 2:11 pm (#17 of 119)

Something just caught my attention on my reread of HBP,

"Dumbledore did not answer. His face was twitching as though he was deeply asleep, but having a horrible dream"(HBP US HB 571).

He looked as though he was sleeping at the bottom of the tower, his portrait was asleep....




Choices - Jun 14, 2006 5:14 pm (#18 of 119)

Good catch, Geauxtigers.




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 15, 2006 10:41 am (#19 of 119)
Edited Jun 15, 2006 11:56 am

Yes, great catch! Perhaps that should be mentioned on the "Was the major death in HBP real?" thread too.

The Saint, I suppose RAB could have been alone but didn't Dumbledore say it would take two people? If RAB is Regulus, Kreacher could have been present and ordered not to say anything. Elves have their own brand of magic and I don't think Apparating out of there would be a problem.

If RAB is the body in the water, I don't think he would have to be an Inferi. If the potion is DoLD the person is dead but not properly, so I don't think being underwater would hurt. Voldemort would do a counter-spell to bring the person back to life and then ask his questions. I don't think Inferi can talk. The whole idea of the potion being DoLD is that the trespasser would be around indefinitely for Voldemort to question at his convenience.




Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 16, 2006 12:06 am (#20 of 119)

In Half-blood Prince (I think while Harry is at the Weasley's before going to Hogwarts) they talk about Karkaroff's body being found and how much longer he survived compared to Regulus Black who only survived a month. I took this to mean a body was found, which suggests that Regulus' corpse wasn't with the Inferi.




Choices - Jun 16, 2006 10:45 am (#21 of 119)

It says that Karkaroff's body was found and that he had survived a year after he deserted Voldemort, whereas Sirius' brother Regulus only managed to live a few days - it does not mention a body for Regulus.




far from prefect - Jun 16, 2006 3:45 pm (#22 of 119)

A couple of things have occurred to me reading this thread and the Dumbledore thread...

If one drinks the Draught of Living Death, one is still alive, right? When the Full Body Bind was lifted from Harry, presumably it was because the caster was dead.

Dumbledore drank the horrible potion, goblet after goblet, but he didn't drink lake water. I think the Inferi were woken by Harry touching the water not by DD drinking it. Harry throws a goblet-full at DD's face, but I don't think he drinks any. DD repeatedly reminds Harry not to touch the water.

The potion is like eau de Dementor, or essence of Voldemort. Dumbledore is clearly living out all of the most horrible things his imagination can come up with. He begs for death, which Harry has done when being Crucio'd and when possessed by Voldie -- although, in the OotP I think it is Voldemort screaming "Kill me" in the hope that DD will kill Harry. As if!

Anyway... just some random thoughts.




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 17, 2006 7:40 am (#23 of 119)

I agree, Harry touching the water is what awoke the inferi. This is the reason why I suspect that Voldemort altered the potion to cause thirst, he wanted the drinker to go for the lake water (Aguamenti wouldn't work) -he didn't want anyone leaving that cave.




virginiaelizabeth - Jun 29, 2006 9:54 am (#24 of 119)

I originally posted this on the Triumphant Glint thread but I think it fits better here. Let me know you thoughts!

It did make me think of something:

DD was reliving a terrible memory

Dementors cause a person to relive their worst memory

Dementors suck your soul out.

Horcruxes are pieces of soul.

There is a connection between them, but the question is, is the horcrux and the potion related at all to Dementors? If so how?




geauxtigers - Jun 29, 2006 10:45 am (#25 of 119)

It also makes me think of the Brains in the DoM. The brains were in a green liquid. "a brain burst from the green liquid like a leaping fish. For a moment it seemed suspended in midair, then it soared towards Ron, spinning as it came, and what looked like ribbons of moving images flew from it, unraveling like rolls of film..."(798 US HB OOP) then Madame Pomfrey's comment about thoughts leaving deeper scars than almost anything else.

Also, DD was suspended in midair then fell. Don't know about that, but I think there’s a connection here with the brain, the potion, Dementors etc. Just not sure what...




Madame Pomfrey - Jul 15, 2006 12:22 pm (#26 of 119)

Amortentia . "It is probably the most dangerous and powerful potion in the room---oh, yes" he said nodding gravely at Malfoy and Nott, both of whom were smirking skeptically. "When you have seen as much as life as I have, you will not underestimate the power of obsessive love.... Slughorn

Notice that two Slytherins (Malfoy and Nott) seem to share Voldemort’s view on the power of love. Is this a Slytherin trait? I wonder what would happen if Harry slipped ole Voldemort Amortentia? Could a potion designed to make him feel a power(love) that he totally hates destroy him?




Choices - Jul 15, 2006 1:16 pm (#27 of 119)
Edited Jul 15, 2006 2:17 pm

Probably not, but it would be terribly funny to see the results. I think he already suffers from excessive love - of himself and his life.




virginiaelizabeth - Jul 15, 2006 1:58 pm (#28 of 119)
Edited Jul 15, 2006 3:01 pm

Actually that's an interesting idea Madam Pomfrey! I wonder what would happen to him?? I can see it now, LV is sleeping and Harry pours Amortentia in his mouth... That would be funny, but could it destroy him? do you think it would help Harry in any way? Maybe weaken him?

Choices, I'm not sure I'd call it love for his life and himself, but more along the lines of complete fear of death.




Madame Pomfrey - Jul 15, 2006 3:34 pm (#29 of 119)
Edited Jul 15, 2006 4:35 pm

I get a mental image of Harry running from Voldie, who wants a smooch.

Seriously, if he could not reside in Harry's body being that it was full of love for Sirius that he was willing to die, I wonder would that emotion destroy him physically or just destroy the evilness inside him?




Miss Amanda - Jul 15, 2006 5:14 pm (#30 of 119)

I don't believe it would destroy the evilness inside him, Madam Pomfrey. I'm trying to formulate a theory which involves this very point. Tom Marvolo Riddle did not grow up in an environment that kept him from loving. Rather, he grew up in an environment that did not acknowledge his evil side, just as Dudley does. For his school age years, Tom Marvolo Riddle lived a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde existence, presenting an acceptable face to the world while developing a self-serving hedonistic personality. Once he graduated, performed at least two murders, and learned at least some aspects of horcruxes, he took on the full-time personality of Voldemort. He has abandoned "Tom Marvolo Riddle," the boy who he never loved. It is actually self-hatred, and not self-love, which motivates Voldemort.




Solitaire - Jul 15, 2006 7:52 pm (#31 of 119)

Tom Marvolo Riddle did not grow up in an environment that kept him from loving. Rather, he grew up in an environment that did not acknowledge his evil side, just as Dudley does.

Very perceptive statement, Miss Amanda, and an interesting parallel to boot.

Solitaire




virginiaelizabeth - Jul 16, 2006 10:13 pm (#32 of 119)

I think this is a really interesting idea. I'm also thinking of the first potions lesson with Slughorn. Every potion there was used with the exception of DoLD (**potion in the cave**) Well anyway, people have pointed out the uses of these potions throughout the story, Felix Felicis is self-explanatory, and Polyjuice potion is used by Crabbe and Goyle to help Malfoy out, and everyone said that Amortentia foreshadowed Harry/Ginny. But, what if it is used in the last book, against LV? I think that love is going to prove a big role in Voldemort’s defeat, so why couldn't it be in the form of a love potion? Just thinking that since we haven't actually seen Amortentia used, that it's still to come, but this has a lot to do with my strong belief that the potion in the cave is Draught of Living Death, so the only potion not used from that lesson would be Amortentia. Just a thought, I think we could get some interesting theories from this.




Dobby Socks - Jul 17, 2006 5:09 am (#33 of 119)

But ‘obsessive love’ or obsession is one thing, while real love is another (although the line can become blurry at times). It would be fitting, though, if Voldemort died in the same way he was conceived: through the effects of a love potion.




Soul Search - Jul 17, 2006 6:45 am (#34 of 119)

Dobby Socks' comment "conceived, through the effects of a love potion" got me to wondering.

Is that one of the effects of excessive use of a love potion: offspring turn out badly, e.g. Tom Riddle/Voldemort?

Or is it a general message about conception without love?




Madame Pomfrey - Jul 17, 2006 9:14 am (#35 of 119)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 10:15 am

Ooh, I like that, Dobby. We have yet to see the power of obsessive love, it is the opposite of Voldemort(obsessive hate)is it not?

Soul Search, perhaps you are right. Voldemort was conceived in deception. Does the potion also affect the offspring in some horrible way is a good question.

Virginia, I’m with you on the DoLD.




geauxtigers - Jul 17, 2006 9:46 am (#36 of 119)

I like that idea about Voldemort's birth via love potion. Merope was not loved, but I think she knew how to love. She loved Riddle Sr. even though he didn't love her back. So she gets him to love her by cheating. Surely that is a terrible crime, its like Imperius curse, she has control over him. She is making him love her for her own benefit, even though he does not love her back... Id this why Tom Jr. cannot love? Because there was no true love residing in his veins? It was not true love, fake, a crime almost. Do you get my drift? I'm thinking out loud here so someone help me out...




Solitaire - Jul 17, 2006 12:09 pm (#37 of 119)

I, too, am bothered by the idea of using a love potion on someone you are really supposed to love. I sometimes wonder whether Merope really loved Riddle. How can you love someone you do not even know? You can be attracted or infatuated ... but in love?

I suspect this may have been the real situation with Merope and Riddle, Sr. She was infatuated with him and saw marriage as a way out of her miserable life ... so she slipped him some Amortentia. Under its influence, Riddle was probably very kind and attentive to her, which made her fall in love with him.

Once she was really in love, she may have felt the dishonesty of continuing to use the love potion on him. Or perhaps she was so besotted that she assumed he really did love her. Alas, once he was no longer "under the influence," he probably ceased even to be kind and attentive. Poor Merope ...

It would be interesting to know, however, what she used on him and whether or not it had any bearing on the kind of person he became. In other words, was he doomed from the moment of conception?

Solitaire




Lilly P - Jul 17, 2006 3:11 pm (#38 of 119)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 4:12 pm

I sometimes wonder whether Merope really loved Riddle. - Solitaire

I don't think she really loved him at all. I see using a love potion on someone and having intimate relations with them under the power of said potion to be the same as rape. You couldn't do that to someone you truly love. Although I do like the theory of LV being doomed from conception because the potion had affected him, I can't get all the way behind it because I see the baby Tom Riddle as a victim. He did not ask to born to parents who didn't truly love each other or under a curse of a potion. I see some of his....perversion I think is the word I'm looking for...based upon the "Sins of the Father" (and Mother) theory. His mother committed a terrible crime upon TR senior and TR senior committed a crime upon TR junior by not being a part of his son's life no matter what circumstances were involved. Both of these crimes are starting points to TR's downward spiral to becoming LV. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming it completely on his parents, there comes a time when you are old enough to understand right from wrong. He may have been raised in an orphanage, but there were people there who, if they didn't exactly love him, they treated him decently. He had an example of how to be a decent human being from them as well as the teachers at Hogwarts. When he consciously decided to murder his first victim, Then his wickedness became his own fault. WHEW Looking back over that, I'm not sure if it is too clear. To summarize, it's 50% his parents fault and 50% his own.




Miss Amanda - Jul 17, 2006 4:40 pm (#39 of 119)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 5:42 pm

Amortentia does not really create love at all.

It would just intensify Voldemort's obsessions, or maybe refocus his drive for while.

Instead of focusing on whether he was born with or without love in his veins, dissect whether he is born with a predisposition to obsess.

I believe that being raised in an orphanage or having parents who don't love each other will not cause you to have no love in your heart. Rejecting love and others is a choice. However, perhaps he can't help but obsess over stupid stuff.




Madame Pomfrey - Jul 18, 2006 8:03 am (#40 of 119)
Edited Jul 18, 2006 9:06 am

Ron had to be given an antidote for the love potion he ingested. Would it have worn off in time? If so, Did Merope have to continue giving the potion to Riddle senior? The more I think on it the more it seems that the potion affected the unborn Voldemort. Perhaps the powerful obsession transferred to him was not of love, but a powerful obsession with hate, deceit etc. Does this make sense?

Edit* It does wear off. Dumbledore speculated that Merope had quit giving the potion.
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Potions      Empty Potions (posts #41 to #80)

Post  Potteraholic on Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:26 pm

Miss Amanda - Jul 18, 2006 4:56 pm (#41 of 119)

I believe that Ron's antidote was just to speed up the process. He was going to do something stupid on his birthday, and Slughorn was intrigued by the increased side effects from the potion being out-of-date.

However, it doesn't really matter how much was given to Riddle, Sr. Voldemort was not exposed to it after conception.

If somehow it did modify him, and made him obsess more, I think it would still be ethically neutral. In other words, Voldemort chose over which things to obsess. In my mind, "love potions" themselves are ethically neutral, neither causing good (creating true love) nor causing evil (creating harm). I don't believe Fred and George would sell something explicitly malevolent, but they would certainly utilize products of "grey areas."




Madame Pomfrey - Jul 19, 2006 5:41 am (#42 of 119)

No, he wasn't exposed to the potion afterwards, but during his creation, which I think would be critical. I really don't think his evilness has anything to do with the potion, but it is fun to discuss the possibility.




geauxtigers - Jul 26, 2006 10:02 pm (#43 of 119)
Edited Jul 26, 2006 11:03 pm

"Halfway through the fourth Goblet, he staggered and fell forward against the basin. his eyes were still closed, his breathing heavy....Dumbledore did not answer. His face was twitching as though he was deeply asleep, but dreaming a horrible dream"(US HB pg 571 HBP).

Then he is asleep in the portrait,

Also, "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping"(US HB pg 608 HBP).

We have seen all the things in Snape's first potions lesson but DoLD. They make it this year in HBP, we have no evidence that it was ever finished to know its color. Voldemort could have dyed it for lack of a better word. I just can't get this out the back of my head, I just can't.... what do y'all think?




TheSaint - Jul 27, 2006 5:26 am (#44 of 119)

I think she sure used the word sleeping a lot. Just enough to drive us crazy! LOL




Madame Pomfrey - Jul 27, 2006 5:30 am (#45 of 119)

Me neither, Geauxtigers. Also, the fact that Dumbledore said that Voldemort wouldn't want to kill the person right away, he’d want to question them first. How else would Voldemort achieve this? DoLD sounds like the perfect solution. There are so many clues pertaining to sleep throughout HBP, they can't all be red herring.




virginiaelizabeth - Jul 27, 2006 7:43 am (#46 of 119)

I have to agree, this is just driving me mad! There are so many clues that could point to it!




Madame Pomfrey - Aug 3, 2006 9:57 am (#47 of 119)
Edited Aug 3, 2006 11:08 am

I posted this elsewhere. DoLD... what is the definition of Living Death? Dumbledore is gone, but I'm sure we will see this potion in book 7.Also,"they can not kill you if you're already dead" keeps popping into my mind. I was sure Dumbledore was referring to Dold, so who do we believe is dead that actually isn't because of DoLD?

I just read Gina's report and Jo said Dumbledore's definitely dead. Definition of dead is no heartbeat, no blood pressure and no respirations. What if DoLD provides all these things except there is still brain activity and the person just lies in state? Oh, gosh... I'm really having a time letting go of my sweet Dumbledore, aren’t I?




virginiaelizabeth - Aug 3, 2006 1:23 pm (#48 of 119)

LOL Madame Pomfrey! Death I believe is when the brain stops working. Your brain is your most vital organ as it's the one that controls everything in your body. Your heart can stop working and you can be revived, your lungs can stop working and you can be revived. But if your brain stops working, then everything stops working and there is no coming back. So I'm not sure that Dumbledore could be considered dead if he drank DoLD, but then again, things could be very different in the Magical World. I still think that potion was DoLD, as she hasn't shot that one down yet! Now we can spend the next year hashing out new theories about what happened that night! YAY!!




geauxtigers - Aug 3, 2006 1:51 pm (#49 of 119)

Yes the brain is what controls everything, heart, lungs, etc. But the thing that gets me it that we know so little about it. You could quite literally be dead. All brain functions have stopped and you are dead. But maybe that’s exactly what DoLD does, but the person can be revived via Enervate (I know that's spelled wrong). With a real death, one cannot be revived, even by magic, but DoLD could killed you, but allow you the ability to be revived.

This is a fiction book and the magical world, so really anything is possible. I just have this feeling that DoLD will come into play, I mean look at all those 'Dumbledore looked as though he could be sleeping' or similar references. I think Jo is trying to mess with our minds here. But I dunno, I'm not having to hard of a time letting go of DD, but if I think there could still be a small window of hope there, but that’s just me.




Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 2:14 pm (#50 of 119)

I think there could still be a small window of hope there, but that’s just me

Jo says he is dead and we need to move through the stages of grief. Doesn't that kind of squelch any hope that he is alive?

Solitaire




Madame Pomfrey - Aug 3, 2006 2:32 pm (#51 of 119)

That's what I was trying to say, geauxtigers. Suppose DoLD does put one in the death state but you can be enervated. Dumbledore would therefore be dead so she(Jo) wouldn't actually be lying to us, would she? I hope she will give us some clues to work on. In her interview with Emerson and Melissa she said she wouldn't want to shoot down the theory of Dumbledore was planning to die, so did she? I think Jo is so tricky that I don't trust her not to pull a fast one on us.

Solitaire, I know. I guess I'm still in denial.




Solitaire - Aug 3, 2006 2:38 pm (#52 of 119)

It sounds to me, from her statement last night, as though Dumbledore is finally and irrevocably dead ... not hovering in a DoLD state. I think Fawkes's song was a dirge, after which he departed from Hogwarts ... and I think that was the most telling thing of all.

Solitaire




haymoni - Aug 3, 2006 2:41 pm (#53 of 119)

Yes, I agree about Fawkes.

Poor Jo. She point blank had to break that little boy's heart, but there's no turning back now.

The greatest wizard of all time is dead.




geauxtigers - Aug 3, 2006 10:20 pm (#54 of 119)

I clicked post on this earlier to find that the forum was down again! Luckily when I hit back, what I'd said was still there, so no harm done!

Soli, I know she said point blank he is dead, and I'm not saying he isn't dead, Jo confirmed it. I think her reaction was telling, but I still think that there is something to be said about DoLD and all the sleeping references. What this could mean? I have no idea! LOL but my meaning behind a small window of hope, is that if there was a way that the DoLD literally killed him, all internal organs stopped. In this sense, Jo isn't technically lying as he is dead. But if death by means of DoLD could enable the person to be revived, he could come back. But I think he is gone for good now that she has said it publically. I'm just saying that what I just said, appears to be the only opportunity that could work. I think it’s a stretch, but not totally out of the question...

I'm not so much in denial, as I am trying to be optimistic even though that’s not working right now!




haymoni - Aug 4, 2006 6:39 am (#55 of 119)

Maybe Snape will use DoLD to save Draco somehow.

Is he still bound by the Vow?




Madame Pomfrey - Aug 16, 2006 6:04 am (#56 of 119)
Edited Aug 16, 2006 7:06 am

Listed on the Lexicon are famous wizard cards. Under the famous hag cards I found this:

Leticia Somnolens Medieval, dates unknown. This spiteful hag was jealous of the king's daughter and caused her to prick her finger on a spindle tainted with a Draught of the Living Death. A young wizard who had smeared his lips with Wiggenweld potion kissed the princess and brought her out of her trance.

Is this proof that Wiggenweld potion is the antidote for DoLD?

Strange that the above sounds like Snow White and that Albus means white.




Ginerva Potter - Aug 16, 2006 7:19 am (#57 of 119)

Madame Pomfrey - not to contradict you but I think it sounds more like Sleeping Beauty.

It does seem like the Wiggen weld potion is the antidote for DoLD though. Great find!

Ginny




Madame Pomfrey - Aug 16, 2006 8:13 am (#58 of 119)

Thanks, Ginny.

I am not as familiar with Sleeping Beauty as I am with Snow White. I guess I'm getting my fairy tales confused.




haymoni - Aug 16, 2006 9:40 am (#59 of 119)

Hah - and I thought the Wiggenweld Potion was something concocted for the Harry Potter games!!!




Ginerva Potter - Aug 16, 2006 10:42 am (#60 of 119)

I haven't watched the whole movie with my kids, yet. But it goes something like - The King and Queen have a baby and invite the whole kingdom to the palace to introduce her. However, they don't invite the evil witch (I think she might be a relative, but I can't remember). The evil witch crashes the party and vows that the princess will prick her finger and die by her 16th birthday. So, the king and queen send Princess Aurora into hiding until her surprise 16th birthday party. Aurora doesn't even know that she is a princess. So, somehow the evil witch finds the Princess and tricks her into touching the sharp needle on a spinning wheel, but instead of dying she falls asleep. The Prince comes and kisses her, she wakes up and they live happily ever after.

Or something to that effect. The details aren't perfect, but I think that's the gist of the story!

Haymoni - I thought they made up the wiggenweld potion for the games, too. It's the only place I've ever heard of it!

Ginny




shepherdess - Aug 16, 2006 11:50 am (#61 of 119)

Well, Ginerva, you've almost got it. The original spell is that Aurora would prick her finger and die. But one of the good fairies (unable to actually remove the spell) changes it so that when she does prick her finger, she'll fall asleep for a hundred years.

But then of course the prince wakens her with a kiss.

Jo sure does seem to incorporate things from a lot of different sources into her books, doesn't she? She must read all the time; but how she remembers it all, I'll never know.




geauxtigers - Aug 16, 2006 2:09 pm (#62 of 119)

Hah - and I thought the Wiggenweld Potion was something concocted for the Harry Potter games!!!

LOL! me too! So does it restore you to full health in the real wizarding world like it does in the game? I seriously thought it was a made up potion for the games!




Madame Pomfrey - Aug 16, 2006 2:18 pm (#63 of 119)

What games are ya'll referring to?




TheSaint - Aug 16, 2006 5:06 pm (#64 of 119)
Edited Aug 16, 2006 6:06 pm

Madame...my bet is video games.




geauxtigers - Aug 16, 2006 5:10 pm (#65 of 119)

Yes it is video games! In the Chamber of Secrets game, Wiggenweld's potion restores you full health if you drink it! That is if you can find a cauldron throughout the secret passageways in Hogwarts. There is one in Greenhouse 3 I believe! haha I played that game waayyy too much!




haymoni - Aug 17, 2006 4:31 am (#66 of 119)

We have the Chamber of Secrets game for our computer.

Ungrateful Son beat it in 1 week. It took me about 6 months, although I was the one who found out how to get the Wizard card on the outside of the castle and the one in the back of the Hospital wing!!

I truly thought the potion was made up for the game, with an OK from Jo. Glad to see that it really is in canon.

I think the game makers have done much better than the moviemakers!




Madame Pomfrey - Aug 17, 2006 6:10 am (#67 of 119)

Thanks. That game sounds fun. I am going to have to get it. The only one we have is Quidditch.




Solitaire - Aug 19, 2006 7:12 pm (#68 of 119)

Isn't the DoLD (or something very like it) what Friar Lawrence gives to Juliet, so that she appears to have committed suicide by poison? Which came first, R&J or Sleeping Beauty? Did one of them borrow from the other?

Solitaire




Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 19, 2006 7:21 pm (#69 of 119)
Edited Aug 19, 2006 8:27 pm

Romeo and Juliet was written between 1597 and 1599. "Sleeping Beauty" appeared a century later when Charles Perrault edited and complied eight tales into a single volume in 1697. The edition was entitled The Mother Goose Tales.




Mediwitch - Aug 20, 2006 1:46 pm (#70 of 119)

Weren't most of those tales grounded in old oral traditions, though? I suppose this is like a chicken-and-egg discussion.




Solitaire - Aug 20, 2006 8:10 pm (#71 of 119)

Thanks, Nathan ... and probably, Mediwitch.




Mediwitch - Aug 21, 2006 9:18 am (#72 of 119)

Yes, I made that clear as mud, didn't I? Sorry!




darien - Aug 24, 2006 8:55 am (#73 of 119)

I just remembered also, in the Count of Monte Cristo doesn't Valentine drink something so that her mother will think she is dead? and then becomes revived by the Count?




Madame Pomfrey - Aug 24, 2006 10:45 am (#74 of 119)

Do you mean Mercedes? Sorry Darien, I've only seen the movie with Richard Harris which was excellent, only there was no sleeping draught in the movie. I’m sure a lot was cut. I’ve got to read that book!

If Dumbledore is not the one who is under DoLD, then who? Can anyone think of anyone that we believe to be dead that may be brought back in book 7? Was Dumbledore hiding someone from Voldemort and his DE?




Hoot Owl - Aug 24, 2006 2:36 pm (#75 of 119)

Ollivander and Florean Fortescue are missing. We don't know who has either one.




Solitaire - Aug 27, 2006 5:59 pm (#76 of 119)

If someone was just seen dead after the fact, maybe he wasn't really dead at all. Anyone who wasn't actually seen in the act of being murdered could be a candidate for having taken DoLD, right?

Does anyone besides me think it would be interesting to have a list of people--from both sides--who "went missing" during Voldemort's first reign of terror? Might it be possible that some of those people are alive and well, having been given new identities by Dumbledore? Dumbledore's comments to Draco on the tower make it seem as though this is possible.

If folks who've been presumed dead have been living under Dumbledore's protection, his death could change their circumstances. Will we meet some of these "ghosts" in Book 7?

Solitaire




geauxtigers - Aug 27, 2006 8:11 pm (#77 of 119)

I think its very possible Soli, the question is who?




haymoni - Aug 28, 2006 5:51 am (#78 of 119)

Or they became Inferi.

Yuck.




Madame Pomfrey - Aug 28, 2006 4:54 pm (#79 of 119)
Edited Aug 28, 2006 5:56 pm

Of the original order of the Phoenix. Caradoc Dearborn vanished 6 months after Moody's picture; they never found his body. I am rereading the books and will take notes. There has to be more. Someone is bound to be alive but was considered dead because of the DoLD.




Die Zimtzicke - Sep 22, 2006 12:33 pm (#80 of 119)

Sorry to be late to the party.

Has anyone figured out why, if love potions were banned at Hogwarts, Slughorn was showing it to the kids in the first place? I've always thought it was like a chemistry teacher showing kids how to make meth out of Sudafed, and then saying, "This is really interesting, but don't do it!"

I think the fact that obsessive love was pointed out to be more dangerous than anything else is important somehow.

I also wonder if the potion in the basin was made from the same spider venom that Slughorn hoodwinked Hagrid out of.
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juliebug - Sep 22, 2006 1:09 pm (#81 of 119)
Edited Sep 22, 2006 2:09 pm

Maybe love potions weren't banned back before Slughorn retired and he just never took them off his syllabus. It could also be that he wants the students to be familiar with these potions, how they work, and most importantly their antidotes, incase they should find themselves on the wrong end of one of them.




geauxtigers - Sep 22, 2006 10:18 pm (#82 of 119)
Edited Sep 22, 2006 11:18 pm

I'd hardly say that a love potion is as bad as making drugs. Yes they are both very dangerous, but hardly in the same way. Love Potions are dangerous, but they can't make you drop dead.

However, I agree, obsessive love is very dangerous, we've seen that first hand with Merope and Tom Sr. I don't think we can compare it to the dangers of drugs. I'd consider Felix Felicis not exactly safe, only because of what Sluggy said about people getting over-confident and thinking they can do anything. Slughorn actually gave that to a student. (By the way, I'm very glad he did!)

Anyway, I'm just trying to make a point. I think it’s "banned" so that people can't do things like what Romilda did. They can't have half the school running around on love potions at Valentine's Day, now can they?




Meoshimo - Sep 24, 2006 11:05 am (#83 of 119)

I've always wondered about the potions/drugs thing. With potions like Felix felicis and others that put you in really good moods or whatever, I see that there is the same possibility of getting hooked on potions as getting hooked on street drugs [although, I'm not sure which is more dangerous, as neither are likely to make you 'drop dead' (unless that's the potion's purpose, of course)]. I'm not sure if I should say anything more on this subject (I'm rather opinionated); I feel like I'm teetering on the line of what's appropriate.




geauxtigers - Sep 24, 2006 11:32 am (#84 of 119)

I agree Meoshima, I'm holding back a lot of what I want to say as I don't want to cross the line here, but the best I can say is that street drugs can kill you, bottom line whether its abuse or one time, taking a love potion will not kill you. You can become addicted to love potions, which that in itself can be dangerous as we know, but it will not kill you. Yes there are potions that can cause someone to do things that could result in death, but then again there are other things that can do that as well. The Imperius curse for one, that’s banned, its illegal, why aren't dangerous potions banned from curriculum? Who knows, it’s a fiction story and I think Jo uses the opportunity in the classroom to introduce the reader and the characters to different elements in the WW. I'll stop here I don't want to cross the line either.




Die Zimtzicke - Sep 24, 2006 3:25 pm (#85 of 119)

You can do something incredibly stupid under the influence of a love potion gone wrong. Look at what happened with Ron. He hit Harry for saying something bad about Romilda. If that had been Draco, or someone even worse, they could have hexed Ron to jelly and it would have been considered self-defense, because no one would have known about the love potion. Ron would have just have gotten blamed for starting a fight with Whomever.

Never mind the example, though. My point was Slughorn shouldn't have been showing the kids that, if it was not supposed to be allowed in the school. And I refuse to believe he didn't know it wasn't allowed.

I know Moody used curses the kids were not supposed to see, but that wasn't the REAL Moody anyway.




Detail Seeker - Sep 29, 2006 1:48 am (#86 of 119)

By a didactic point of view, it was reasonable, that fake Moody showed the children these , while testing the Imperius may be debatable.

If you go by the rules set up by the Ministry in OoP, the children would not have learned anything. So, rules are always a question of purposes. If rules of execution and official purpose diverge, everybody in responsibility for education must decide, if the official purpose or the rules of execution are of higher importance.

Especially if you find out, that rules actually counteract officially set purposes.




Die Zimtzicke - Sep 29, 2006 7:45 pm (#87 of 119)

I think that potion was against the rules before OotP so someone else had a hand in the decision besides the Ministry. They weren't trying to have a hand in at Hogwarts until then. If they were, Lucius would probably have tried to grease that wheel instead of threatening the other school governors.




virginiaelizabeth - Oct 4, 2006 7:29 pm (#88 of 119)
Edited Oct 4, 2006 8:31 pm

Personally, I don't really think that we can compare a love potion to drugs. Drugs are illegal, but love potions are not. I think that what Slughorn was trying to do (with his advanced potion's class) was show the properties and affects of some of the most dangerous and powerful potions. Amortentia is banned at Hogwarts, most likely because it is a learning environment, and they can't have a castle full of love-obsessed teenagers. I don't see what would be so wrong with Slughorn showing them the potions. He merely wanted to show the class some of the qualities and consequences of each of the potions. He wasn't dishing it out and saying "here you go! Go out and have some fun!" Ok I'll stop there...




Die Zimtzicke - Oct 5, 2006 4:55 pm (#89 of 119)

No, he did that with the Felix, which is banned under many circumstances, not that he monitored how it was used after he used it as a prize.




TheSaint - Oct 17, 2006 4:24 am (#90 of 119)

ROFL...Sluggy the Pusher!!!

I cannot agree that Love potion cannot kill. Unrequited love can have dire consequences, death can be self-inflicted while under the effects of the potion. Look how upset Ron got when he thought Harry was laughing. Imagine if Romilda had had the chance to spurn him!

They show us the consequences of drugs and sex in school...why not love potion. Showing kids condoms does not make them want to go do something anymore than showing them love potion would make them want to brew it.




Madame Pomfrey - Oct 17, 2006 9:45 am (#91 of 119)

Saint, I don't know about that. Remember that cool, handsome guy in High school that every girl wanted to be with. I could see many a girl brewing a potion if it gave them that chance.

Romilda certainly wanted Harry bad enough. The thing with me is I can't see why love potions are banned when Polyjuice potion isn't. For goodness sakes they even brewed Draught of Living Death.




Mrs Brisbee - Oct 17, 2006 10:02 am (#92 of 119)

Slughorn showed the Love Potion to NEWT level students. Those are the students in Potions because they want to be, and are taking the subject seriously. They are upperclassmen. Slughorn's job is to teach them what potions are out there, and also about antidotes. If he fails to mention Love Potions I think he would be derelict.

Romilda Vane is a lower-classman who bought her Love Potion mail order. She didn't learn it from Slughorn or even brew it herself. With that sort of thing going on I think it would be pointless of Slughorn to try to keep his NEWT level students ignorant of such things.




Steve Newton - Oct 17, 2006 10:13 am (#93 of 119)

I thought that Polyjuice Potion was banned. At least for pre-OWL students.




Madame Pomfrey - Oct 17, 2006 4:13 pm (#94 of 119)
Edited Oct 17, 2006 5:14 pm

Maybe it is, Steve. I can see that potion causing a lot of problems if students were given free rein.




virginiaelizabeth - Oct 17, 2006 5:57 pm (#95 of 119)

Slughorn showed the Love Potion to NEWT level students. Those are the students in Potions because they want to be, and are taking the subject seriously. They are upperclassmen. Slughorn's job is to teach them what potions are out there, and also about antidotes. If he fails to mention Love Potions I think he would be derelict.

That's the way I feel about it too. They are upperclassmen, and should be mature enough to handle learning about dangerous potions, without wanting to immediately turn around and brew it. There is no 'Hogwarts University' so where else are they going to learn it? They have to learn it somewhere. They aren't babies, so it wouldn't make sense for Slughorn to treat them like babies. Slughorn wasn't showing them those potions and teaching them about the affects, just to do it. He did it because that's his job as a teacher, to teach his students the dangers and powerful magical abilities that potions have and the affects they can have on a person. I don't think he was out of line at all, but merely doing his job, which was to educate his students. They need to be exposed to as many potions as possible before starting they're careers.




S.E. Jones - Oct 18, 2006 1:33 am (#96 of 119)
Edited Oct 18, 2006 3:25 am

I have to fully agree with Mrs Brisbee. Also, I don't think Love potions were necessarily banned because they were bad in terms of health, the way drugs are. I kinda got the feeling they were banned more because they created an annoyance to teachers and a distraction from learning, much like how Filch keeps banning things from Weasley Wizard Wheezes because they cause distractions and help with rule breaking.

EDIT:

Nathan Zimmermann --Romeo and Juliet was written between 1597 and 1599. "Sleeping Beauty" appeared a century later when Charles Perrault edited and complied eight tales into a single volume in 1697. The edition was entitled The Mother Goose Tales.--

Mediwitch --Weren't most of those tales grounded in old oral traditions, though?--

Yeah, most old stories like that are just renditions of even older stories. For instance Romeo and Juliet is actually a take off of Pyramus and Thisbe which was originally a Greek tale, which I bet was probably taken from somewhere before that. Similarly, there are many renditions of Sleeping Beauty. Things happen in the Mother Goose tales very similar to the Disney movie, if my cobwebbed memory is serving me correctly, but in other tales details change, such as the Princess being locked in a tower from the time she's cursed and all spinning wheels being banned from the kingdom so that she can't prick her finger, but the witch creates a hidden room in the tower with a spinning wheel in it. In some stories she does sleep for a hundred years, in some stories her entire castle sleeping with her while in others they all die and leave a ruin around her, in still others (like the Disney version) the prince shows up after only a short time to free her.

After getting completely caught up on this thread, I have to definitely agree that Draught of Living Death will be used sometime in the series. But, why does it have to be used already? Why couldn't it be used in the next book? Perhaps Harry really will aid Draco in hiding from Voldemort, or try to protect someone by putting them to sleep so they appear dead?




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 14, 2007 1:56 pm (#97 of 119)

I noticed that Wiggenweld potion, which was listed as an antidote on one of the famous wizards cards, was not one of the possible answers to conquering Draught of Living Death. So I am wondering if the cards hold any merit or maybe since it has never been mentioned in the books it wouldn't be a possible answer. Anyway, I don't think that the Draught is not curable so I chose bezoar.




Solitaire - Jun 14, 2007 6:52 pm (#98 of 119)

With potions like Felix felicis and others that put you in really good moods or whatever, I see that there is the same possibility of getting hooked on potions as getting hooked on street drugs

I think the real problem with Felix is that the consumer gains an unfair advantage, which is why it is banned during competitive events, like Quidditch, exams, etc.

Re the Draught of Living Death ... since it just puts people to sleep, wouldn't it eventually wear off? If not, wouldn't it have to have some sort of antidote?

Solitaire




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 15, 2007 4:43 am (#99 of 119)

Well, there is that potion that promotes euphoria. Harry was going to give some to Sluggy, wasn't he? I could see that potion being addictive.

I agree, Soli. I think there is a cure for Draught of Living Death only we don't know what it is yet. Elanor has suggested sunlight. It’s an alchemic view, of course.




Solitaire - Jun 15, 2007 11:11 am (#100 of 119)

Well, it certainly makes sense. Do you suppose we will learn about a potion called "liquid sunlight" in DH?




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 15, 2007 5:17 pm (#101 of 119)
Edited Jun 15, 2007 6:23 pm

What about the antidote being one of the 12 uses of dragon’s blood? JKR has saved 11 of its uses for book 7", Or at least she said we would find out, so mentioning the uses in an earlier book would have probably gave something away.

"liquid sunlight" Wouldn't that be wonderful after several Dementor breeding days? Smile




Choices - Jun 16, 2007 7:40 am (#102 of 119)

I thought Wiggenweld (sp?) Potion was the antidote for DoLD, although we haven't seen it mentioned in the books at all.




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 16, 2007 12:15 pm (#103 of 119)
Edited Jun 16, 2007 1:16 pm

Me too! It's listed as the antidote on one of the Famous Witches cards. The Lexicon lists flobberworm mucus (GROSS!) as the only ingredient that is known. The wizarding card said the young man put this potion on his lips (ewwwe) and kissed the princess to awaken her. I didn't know about the flobberworms. Weren't we introduced to them in book 5 or sooner?




Solitaire - Jun 16, 2007 12:49 pm (#104 of 119)

I think they made an appearance after Buckbeak scratched (or was it nipped?) Draco Malfoy in PoA. What an anticlimax for Harry after riding a Hippogriff ... tending flobberworms!




Choices - Jun 16, 2007 4:41 pm (#105 of 119)

Wiggenweld Potion (sp?) is also featured in one of the Harry Potter video games. Can't remember which one though.




Solitaire - Jun 16, 2007 5:45 pm (#106 of 119)

I believe Wiggenweld was used to revive Sleeping Beauty ... or some counterpart of hers in Medieval literature.




Choices - Jun 17, 2007 8:36 am (#107 of 119)

You're right, Soli. I have heard it mentioned in connection with Sleeping Beauty also.




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 17, 2007 4:54 pm (#108 of 119)

Didn't Snape have Harry sort out dead Flobberworms - "There will be no need to wear gloves" - from live ones as a punishment? I'm trying to remember if it was book 5 or 6? If so, perhaps Snape was preparing to make Wiggenweld potion. Hmm..




Solitaire - Jun 17, 2007 5:35 pm (#109 of 119)

How I wish I had a SEARCH feature in my books ... well, other than my time and my eyeballs! It would be SO much faster.




Choices - Jun 18, 2007 8:43 am (#110 of 119)

Somebody could make a fortune if they could just make a book where you can look up a word or phrase from the HP books and it would direct you to the book/books where you can find it. That would be wonderful.




Steve Newton - Jun 18, 2007 9:19 am (#111 of 119)

There was once a website that did that. I thought that I might have some print outs of some pages but can't find them and can't remember the name. When I first heard of it I was sure that I could hear the cease and desist letter being written. I guess I was right since it was only up a couple of weeks. I'm sure it was a violation of copyright.




TheSaint - Jun 18, 2007 11:12 am (#112 of 119)

I remember that. Wasn't it a kid who had typed all the text into Word and you could use the search to find key words within whole volumes?

You could always do the same on your computer....lol. Who has that kind of time?




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 18, 2007 5:59 pm (#113 of 119)
Edited Jun 18, 2007 7:06 pm

HBP(Scholastic edition) Chapter11 Hermione's helping Hand. Demelza to Harry - "He says you’re to come to detention-er-no matter how many party invitations you've received. And he wanted you to know you'll be sorting out rotten flobberworms from good ones, to use in Potions and - and he says there's no need to bring protective gloves."

I found the remaining Wiggenweld potion ingredients.

1 pint of Horklump juice, 2 drops of Flobberworm mucus, 7 Chizpurfle fangs, Billiwig sting slime, Sprig of mint, Boom Berry juice, Stewed Mandrake, Drops of Honeywater, Sloth brain mucus, Moondew drops, and Wiggentree Bark. Also, in the game the potion, I believe, is blue.

I found this on another site and was obtained from a HP game.




Choices - Jun 19, 2007 7:44 am (#114 of 119)

Mercy, some of those ingredients would be very difficult to find....even in Snape's private stores. LOL Quick, someone cause a diversion and we'll slip in......uh-oh, never mind.




Madame Pomfrey - Jun 20, 2007 6:03 am (#115 of 119)
Edited Jun 20, 2007 7:03 am

LoL. I agree, Choices. I wonder if the games are considered Canon? I know the Wizarding Cards are. If the games are canon I wonder if they provide any other clues not mentioned in the books that will come up in book 7? My grandson has a couple of the games. Shame on me for not playing them!




journeymom - Jun 22, 2007 11:36 am (#116 of 119)

Oh, gosh, I hope the games aren't considered canon! That would hardly be fair.




Nan B - Jul 17, 2007 7:26 pm (#117 of 119)
Edited Jul 17, 2007 8:55 pm

I'm sorry if this theory has already been discussed ... I haven't had time to read this whole thread. So I guess I'll just post my theory:

Dumbledore (DD) seems to be reliving (or imagining? experiencing?) something very horrible when he drinks the potion.

I've heard this described as a "Boggart Potion" - it acts like the Boggart creature, showing you / making you experience your worst fears. I think maybe it's more like a Dementor attack? Dementors are worse than a Boggart, I think.

DD does have some horrors in his past, though we don't know any details. We know that he defeated the dark wizard (Grindelwald) in the 1940s. Had to be some horrific things involved with that.

I think that the potion was ALSO intended to force the drinker to submit? become enslaved? (don't quite know what the best word is) to Voldemort (LV). DD says "... [Voldemort] would not want to immediately kill the person who reached this island" ... "He would want to keep them alive along enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defenses ..." ... "this potion ... might paralyze me, cause me to forget what I am here for ... render me incapable in some other way ..."

There's an awful lot we DON'T know about the trip to that cave. How did DD find it? How did he figure out how to swim into it? How did he know the boat was there, hidden in the lake? How did he figure out so quickly what to do with the potion?

DD obviously knew a lot more about it than he shared with Harry (& we the readers). I think he anticipated the danger he was going into, and I think he knew fairly well WHAT the danger was going to be like ... because I think he knew that HARRY wasn't going to be in the same danger. How could he have known that he could keep Harry (relatively) safe, unless he knew what the danger was likely to be? DD definitely brought Harry along for a reason, which he (DD) had anticipated.

"Harry did not speak. Was this why he had been invited along -- so that he could force-feed Dumbledore a potion that might cause him unendurable pain?"

(Quotes are from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 26: The Cave. Italics added for emphasis.)

I think the potion would have made DD LV's slave, and I think THAT's why he asked Snape to kill him.

I think that DD knew quite a lot about what he & Harry were going to find in the cave that night. I think he anticipated the possibility/probability that he would be forced to take the potion (or something like it) and that it would result in him becoming LV's slave (though I think, based on what DD said, that the potion would have killed him eventually). Therefore, he had set up contingency plans with Severus. He kept insisting to Harry that he (DD) had to go to Severus, not to anyone else, after he took the potion. The contingency plan was that if DD was "compromised" in some way, then Severus was to kill DD to prevent him from being "used" by LV in some (even more horrific) way. In actuality, Severus killed DD to save him from "a fate worse than death" (as LV's slave/puppet/Inferi?)

DD may have anticipated when this was probably going to happen, so he made use of the opportunity, to infiltrate Severus deep within the DEs and LV's confidence (as DD's murderer). That would explain why he allowed Severus to become the DADA teacher, knowing that the jinx on that position would mean that Severus could not continue at Hogwarts after the year ended.

Possibly the potion would have made DD an Inferi? Murdered, enslaved to LV, & forced to do LV's bidding? Maybe DD recognized the potion as the Inferius Potion, and that's how he knew that the only way to get through it was to drink it?

I think that this is what Severus was protesting against, what he didn't want to do anymore, when Hagrid overheard DD & Severus arguing in the Forbidden Forest: DD was making the contingency plans. Severus didn't want to have to kill DD? Becomes a mole in the Death Eaters' organization?




Solitaire - Jul 17, 2007 8:21 pm (#118 of 119)

Possibly the potion would have made DD an Inferi?

I don't know if that's how an Inferius is made, but I've often wondered if the horrors Dumbledore was seeing/feeling might have been the very last memories of the dead wizards who had been turned into Inferi and placed in the lake. Could their memories have been put into the potion? Does this make any sense at all?

Solitaire




Luna Logic - Jul 17, 2007 10:49 pm (#119 of 119)

Solitaire and Nan B, I think your ideas are making great sense. I had had the idea of the Inferi, and also I had thought that the stone basin was a kind of Pensieve ‘to back’ (suggested by the illustration of Bloomsbury edition for children). But the combination of the two ideas is very convincing (IMO)!
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