Internal Relationships of Our Trio

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Internal Relationships of Our Trio

Post  Mona on Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:22 am

Internal Relationships of Our Trio
Dumbledore - Mar 22, 2005 5:06 pm Reply
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 2:21 am

I’m starting this thread to discuss the relationship between our trio - Harry, Ron, and Hermione. And not just the romantic relationships (because we have a very useful ‘ship thread just for that where the Harry/Hermione and Ron/Hermione shippers can battle it out), but the workings of their friendship in general, and how this bond that they share will impact future books. Hosts, if this belongs on the individual character threads or the fraternal relationships thread, feel free to move my ramblings elsewhere!

My own opinion is that the three have become the best support system they have for each other. Each comes from very different backgrounds and family lives, and it is really only Ron who can connect with his siblings and parents on a support system level. However it is the very fact that Ron does indeed have a very loving family that causes him to sometimes feel overshadowed. Thus, a need that his friends need to satisfy is the fact that he sometimes does feel trampled by the overall positive reputations of his brothers at home, so that he can feel wholly accepted as an individual. Hermione’s parents live in a completely different world, so to speak, so Hermione must learn to adapt and love people outside of her immediate family. Harry, of course, has nobody on Privet Drive to lean on, and enters the wizarding world with the simple need of feeling accepted in general.

The trio comes together at Hogwarts – Ron and Harry, immediately like brothers, so different in their home situations and background, but best friends nonetheless. Ron, as we know, can get jealous of Harry sometimes, but Harry must feel the same way about Ron as well. Harry probably feels that Ron doesn’t realize how lucky he is to have a supportive family, and to not have to deal with all the burdens that come with being the boy who lived.

Hermione, I believe, has taken Harry under her wing. In a very subtle way she is looking out for both him and Ron, being a sort of nagging mother figure for them at school. I think that she and Harry love each other, but in a purely platonic sisterly-brotherly way. Hermione keeps Harry level and grounded, and is able to have a calming effect on him and knock sense into him when he’s having one of his typical teenage moments.

Ron and Hermione: to me, they’re like an old married couple (not to turn this into a ‘ship thread) They bicker often, nip at each other, yet I think they secretly have a crush on each other. This, to me, is very evident in the story. I don’t know necessarily that they will end up falling in love with each other, but I do see a little snogging in their future.

Together, the three of them have created an incredible bond, each of the individual’s attributes having a profound effect on each of the others. Hermione, I think, is the rock of support for the two of them, keeping the group level, grounded, and of course doing their homework! Ron’s role in the group is the typical “best friend” type. To Harry he’s the brother he never had, to Hermione he’s the clueless typical boy, but their differences may indeed result in a little romance. And of course, there’s Harry, the hero of our series. Emotional and angry, his friends remind him where his heart is and will stick with him even when he lashes out. Together, their friendship makes an incredible storyline for the series.

OK, so enough of my babbling. Happy posting!
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Mona
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Post  Mona on Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:24 am



Choices - Mar 22, 2005 6:16 pm (#1 of 296)

I think Harry, Ron and Hermione together make up a whole. They each supply something the others lack. A balanced person combines the concepts of body, mind and spirit. Our threesome make a balanced entity - Ron represents the body, Hermione the mind and Harry the spirit. Each one completes the other two. They work perfectly together and create a balance that they don't quite have seperately.



Cornelia - Mar 23, 2005 1:27 am (#2 of 296)

Even their wands represent balance. Their magical filling is different, each one is made of one of the three fillings Mr. Ollivander uses(unicorn-tail-Ron; Dragonheart-Hermione; Phoenixtail-Harry).I expect when they are used together stronger effects are possible as if used alone?



JackO - Mar 23, 2005 5:17 am (#3 of 296)

Harry, Ron, and Hermione do sort of complete each other and I think each one needs the other two badly.

Harry needs Ron and Hermione for support. They are the two people who know him best, and the fact that they care about him and that they stick by him no matter how much trouble they get into by being with him... that makes him need them. He needs their support to go on and to live up to everybody's expectation and to handle the burden of being the Boy Who Lived. Also, both are a source of information. Harry comes into the wizarding world completely naive, and he needs people to help him understand what's going on. Hermione knows all the important details and she notices things that Harry and Ron don't. Ron lives with five older brothers and he was born into a wizarding family, so he has street smarts and experience, something you cant get from books.

Ron needs Harry and Hermione to make him everything he is. Ron is very much overshadowed by his brothers. He is the only one in his family that doesn't have a special talent or quality. But with Harry and Hermione he beats them all. Not only is he best friends with THE Harry Potter, but he's gone on more adventures with Harry and Hermione than any of them. He's right there on the front lines, completely mixed up in this whole thing between Harry and Voldemort, and he loves it. He needs the action. And he needs Hermione if he wants to pass any of his classes.

Hermione needs Harry and Ron to keep her relaxed. She needs them for friendship. With Harry she has someone to fuss over. He's also a constant source of riddles and adventures which she loves to solve. All the rule breaking she does because of him really gets her to loosen up. After all, how can she be worried about grades and homework when Harry is in danger? With Ron she has something to both complain and laugh about. He makes her happy, but he also makes her irritated. She needs someone to argue with, but she also needs someone to put her in her place sometimes, and I think Ron does that.

These three together really make the books. A Harry Potter book without one of them would be a lot less exciting and interesting.



Solitaire - Mar 23, 2005 10:38 am (#4 of 296)

When I think of Harry, Ron and Hermione, I am always reminded of a verse in Ecclesiastes that says "a cord of three strands is not easily broken." It talks about the importance of having friends to support one.

I agree with the previous posters that each of them needs the other. Together they function as a strong whole. Each is enabled, by the help of the other two, to do things that might not have been possible otherwise. I also agree with this statement: These three together really make the books.

The comments about Ron feeling overshadowed in his family and by Harry made me think about this for a minute. Ron may certainly feel overshadowed, but if you stop to think about it, he has done so many things that his brothers never did.

In his first year, he played a very important role in recovering the Philospher's Stone. Harry couldn't have called that chess game. In his second year, Ron followed Harry down in the chamber. Granted, he did not battle the basilisk ... but I think that jumping into the pipe certainly indicated he was willing and would have done so. He also received an award for special services to the school, and I wonder how many of his older sibs did that.

In his third year, he was there with Harry when it was discovered that Scabbers was really Peter/Wormtail. Granted, in his fourth year, there was a bit of strain to the friendship. But Ron got past it and was able to support Harry again. In his fifth year, Ron was not only a prefect but he fought and survived against Death Eaters in the Ministry, something only Ginny has done.

I think it is important for Ron to remember the number of times he has been distinguished. Granted, Harry seems to be the focal point. But as others have said, I'm sure Harry would have loved to trade it for the much more normal, loving family and life Ron has had.

Getting back to the trio ... I wonder if James, Lily and Sirius functioned as a "trio" in their days and years following Hogwarts. If Sirius was Harry's godfather, it would seem Lily must have cared for him, as well.

Solitaire



Joanne R. Reid - Mar 23, 2005 11:00 am (#5 of 296)

Hi,

I like the idea of Harry, Ron and Hermione acting as a Gestalt entity. Although they are individuals (Wow! Are they individuals!), they also act in unison, each shouldering their unique responsibilities to the group. They constantly consider each other's welfare. Their concern for each other extends from the trivial day-to-day occurances to their long-term futures. They willingly, sometimes impetuously, sacrifice themselves for their friends. Yet, they provide counsel, advice and assistance whenever and wherever needed.

IMHO, the theme that underlies the Harry Potter series is their friendship.

Thanks,



Choices - Mar 23, 2005 3:04 pm (#6 of 296)

Yes, I like the idea of James, Sirius and Lily being the Harry, Ron and Hermione of their day - although they were not together as long as our trio has been. Lily and James only got friendly enough to date in 7th year. But, I can see Lupin being sort of like the Neville of that group. They both have somewhat of an affliction - Neville's bad memory and lack of confidence and Lupin with his werewolf problem. Where Peter fits in, I don't know - maybe he never did quite fit in.....he was sort of a fifth wheel.



Paulus Maximus - Mar 23, 2005 4:11 pm (#7 of 296)

"When I think of Harry, Ron and Hermione, I am always reminded of a verse in Ecclesiastes that says "a cord of three strands is not easily broken." It talks about the importance of having friends to support one."

What kind of worries me is that I was reminded of a quote to the effect of "Cut one leg, and the tripod collapses."

I really hope that none of the legs on this tripod get cut, because I do think that the other two would fall if that happened.



Madame Librarian - Mar 23, 2005 5:01 pm (#8 of 296)

Paulus, I, too, was about to comment on there being three of them. Not two, not four. I'm not trying to get into a numerology thing here, just a natural observation that three is a balanced number (who said it--mind, body, spirit? that's good).

Of course, there's huge symbolism associated with the number three, at least in western culture (we don't need to get into that), and the simple fact that when you have three people, you automatically have a tie-breaker. Difficult decisions get made and action is taken, as opposed to when there are only two or four friends trying to work together but arguing about method. Another point is that three closely connected character offers the potential for so many variables in the dynamic of a story--two can be mad at one, one can be the odd man out for while (GoF, for instance), or two can rescue one, one can rescue two. You get the idea.

For no good reason other than I found it an interesting exercise, I tried to think of other trios in legend or literature--
--Three Musketeers
--Dorothy's three friends, the Scarecrow, Tinman, Cowardly Lion
--Luke, Han, and Leia (2 guys and a gal as in HP)
--Goldilocks and the three bears

Oh, wow! In my hunt for more trios, I bumped into this article called "Storytelling with the Magic of Threes" by Chris King.

click here

Anyway, I know this isn't exactly what was the intended topic of the thread, but I thought it was worth mentioning that JKR has followed a time honored tradition with her creation of yet another famous trio.

Ciao. Barb



Dumbledore - Mar 26, 2005 7:13 am (#9 of 296)

Um..just trying to get this thread going..how big of a role do you think this friendship between them will play out in future books?



Choices - Mar 26, 2005 9:26 am (#10 of 296)

There is actually another trio in the story that plays/will play a very important role in the outcome of this story - It is Dumbledore, Harry and Fawkes. If Harry represents "the savior" in this story, then you can figure out who the other two represent. I will not go farther to keep from being reprimanded.



Czarina II - Mar 27, 2005 2:58 pm (#11 of 296)

[[Choices, now that is an Eastery thought! But that is neither here nor there.]]

I think the friendship between the Trio (Harry, Ron, and Hermione) is the driving force behind much of the series. Ultimately, the conflict belongs to Harry, but the other two support him, and each has his or her own battle to fight. It is interesting to watch the plot pan out. Later, I might provide a better analysis, but I'm afraid I don't have the time at present.



Puck - Mar 28, 2005 6:49 pm (#12 of 296)

"Every triangle has 3 corners, and every triangle has 3 sides. Three, it's the magic number." From School House Rock, for all those who watched Saturday morning Cartoons back in the '70's.

I love the relationship breakdown here. Harry takes a brother role to both Ron and Hermione, I think. Though I would put Lupin in the Hermione role for the James/Sirius trio. Lily would be more like Ginny, I think. She had be a person of interest, but didn't really get involved with the group until later. Remus would be the one to prod them about homework, and holdback some of the rule breaking. The others would drag him on adventures.

I think our trio will stay intact until the end at least, though I don't know if they'll all come out of it. Harry needs to get to the end, though, and he needs the other two to help him find his way. Although in each book he has to stand on his own in the end, he never would have gotten to that point in the journey without Ron and Hermione.



Ff3girl - Mar 28, 2005 8:25 pm (#13 of 296)

Choices: If Harry represents "the savior" in this story, then you can figure out who the other two represent. I will not go farther to keep from being reprimanded.

Should we really not even discuss it? I mean... there's no doubt in the potential for symbolism there. I think JKR has actually said something along the lines of... "If people knew I were a Christian, they would know how the story ends." I can't remember exactly how that quote goes, but it was something very similar to that.



Choices - Mar 29, 2005 9:59 am (#14 of 296)

Yes, JKR has refused to discuss her religious beliefs until after the books are finished because it would give away too much. In a book I read on the subject of HP, it lists three triangles or trinities in the books, Harry, Ron, and Hermione - James, Lupin and Sirius -Dumbledore, Harry and Fawkes. In that last trinity, Dumbledore is representative of God, Harry is "the savior" and Fawkes is the Spirit. There is so much religious symbolism in the HP story, but unfortunately we will get reprimanded if we discuss it.



Ponine - Mar 29, 2005 1:27 pm (#15 of 296)

Choices, are you serious? She has actually said that? Is that not pretty much like flailing about a big banner that reads 'Hey everyone - look for overtones and symbolism - enjoy!!' I for one find this really exciting Smile I think you alone, Choices, are the reason for me starting to read thr series all over again twice... Smile Thanks, I think... Wink



Choices - Mar 29, 2005 5:42 pm (#16 of 296)

Ponine - I can not tell you how honored I feel that you said that. I think, like Ron, that my ears are turning red!! Thank you. :-)

"JKR is a professed Presbyterian (Church of Scotland) and has said in interviews that her faith is a key to understanding her work" - quote from the introduction to "Looking for God in Harry Potter" by John Granger.



Aqualu Nifey - Mar 29, 2005 5:57 pm (#17 of 296)

I figured that she was Christian when I first read the table of contents as soon as I got my copy of Order of the Phoenix. "Behind the Veil" seemed very symbolic to me.



StareyedSlytherin - Mar 29, 2005 7:28 pm (#18 of 296)

Choices, I agree completely! I think that if you read it closely, you can find sooooo much religious symbolism. Wow, it would be nice to have a thread dedicated just to that!



Phelim Mcintyre - Mar 30, 2005 5:38 am (#19 of 296)

Choices - I believe on the BBC interview that JKR said she wasn't a Christian. I have never read an interview that said that her faith was important, this appears to be a spurious as the one claiming that JKR was a practicing witch (this one is a hoax). Be careful what you read in books.

Also, a friend of mine's aunt has a Harry Potter Book dedicated to her. He has told me that JKR is NOT a Christian. Many people in England in the UK are members of the Church of England, but are so because it is the state religion. In Scotland, Prebyterianism is the state religion (hence Church of Scotland), so it is possible that JKR is a Presbyterian but does not have a Christian faith.

Anyway, this discussion is too religious. We need to be careful not to go down this path as not to upset anyone. This is why StareyedSlytherin we don't have a thread dedicated to religious symbolism. If we want to chat via email rather than on the Forum, we can, but we don't want to be modded do we?



Choices - Mar 30, 2005 9:37 am (#20 of 296)

Phelim - "so it is possible that JKR is a Presbyterian but does not have a Christian faith."

I happen to be a Presbyterian and I am a Christian. If she does not have a Christian faith, then why declare herself a Presbyterian? Why not just say, "I have no particular belief"?

It seems strange that we can discuss alchemy and mythology and pagan symbolism in Harry Potter, but we can't discuss Christian symbolism in Harry Potter for fear of offending someone. It is chock full of Christian symbolism, but we just have to ignore that aspect of the story. It's like reading a book about fishing and not being about to say "fish".



Puck - Mar 30, 2005 10:39 am (#21 of 296)

Back to our trio!

I was thinking that it is interesting that in OotP when others join the group, it is kind of a second trio -Neville, Luna, and Ginny. Although these 3 are not a group that hangs together in and of themselves, they do keep that "3" thing going. In the MoM battle they divide into two groups of three, our original group seperated, but still in 3's. I wonder if we will see more of that.

Also, Fred and George hang with Lee, making them a trio. Draco and his croonies also a threesome.



Catherine - Mar 30, 2005 10:48 am (#22 of 296)

This thread has strayed far from the topic, and I suggest that it get back on track now. The topic is about the internal relationships of the Trio.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Puck. Thanks for getting the topic back on track.

In addition, I must urge our members to refrain from speculating or spreading rumors about Ms. Rowling's religious beliefs. She has not gone into great detail on this subject, and it is only correct that we respect her privacy. I would hate to see something from the Forum show up in her Rubbish bin on her official site, and I would be mortified to offend her about something as deeply personal as religious beliefs.

EDIT: A search of Quick Quotes revealed the following: ' Is she a Christian?

''Yes, I am,'' she says. ''Which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books.'' The link is here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I hope that will clear up any confusion.

Also, if anyone has a question about the appropriateness of a topic, please email a Host.

Back to the Trio.....



Ponine - Mar 30, 2005 1:42 pm (#23 of 296)

Choices - you are very welcome, and I truly meant it! My mind is racing with so many different ideas, it is like an over-crowded, blurry sneakoscope... Hmmm..

Thank you so much for posting the link, Catherine, I would have had no idea of where to look, and it was thoughtful and kind of you to answer my next burning question while gently - well, relatively gently - redirecting us Smile (and even though I for one am aching to delve in, I fully appreciate your point, and agree that it would be horrendous to be the direct or indirect cause of any malice or rumors.)

So... uhm, how about those Vikings... hm. I don't know if this is off topic as well, so please feel free to move it whereever it is fit. I take it for granted that Ron and Hermy will officially get together in the next book, and I am wondering if you think this will cause disruption within the trio, or bond them even stronger together? My mind has been full of notions of a third wheel, jealousy, Harry feeling lonely or excluded, but is it perhaps more likely that this relationship will solidify the trio? After all, Harry has an extremely close bond with Ron, and has also a very special relationship with Hermione. If Ron and Hermione develop their relationship as well - will the trio be stronger or weaker? united or divided?



ruthlesspenguin - Mar 30, 2005 2:32 pm (#24 of 296)

My concerns for the stability of the trio don't come from the possibility of a Ron/Hermione ship, but from Dumbledore's telling Harry why he never chose him as a prefect. I just can't believe he did this. Did he really think knowing he should have been a prefect would make Harry feel any better about Sirius' death or the implications of the prophecy?

On the other hand think about what it would mean to Ron if he found out what Dumbledore said. Ron probably has his own doubts about why he was made prefect, but to have them confirmed by Harry, especially if it was in front of Hermione or others, would, I think, be more than he can take.

I am also concerned by the following World book day chat question.

bibwhang: Will Ron ever get on the Gryffindor quidditch team? JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's already there! The question is, whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow him to stay!

Being a prefect and the Gryffindor keeper are the two achievements that are Ron's alone. I hate to think how he would feel if they were taken away from him, and as for his reaction if Harry was involved... well I shudder at the thought of it.

<(')



Catherine - Mar 30, 2005 4:18 pm (#25 of 296)

My very old post may be here somewhere, languishing, but a Search did not bring it forth. Perhaps the Mulcher ate it (good excuse; too bad it doesn't work in "real life").

Anyway, I proposed, after reading Fantastic Beasts that the Runespoor was a good symbol for the Trio.

This serpent has three heads: the left head is the planner; the middle head is the dreamer; and the right head is the critic.

Perhaps my thinking is too superficial, but I can't help but think that Hermione, mistress of the homework planner, and the unofficial "brains" of the group, is the left head. Harry was known for dreaming in SS and in OOP; in fact, his "dreams" got him in trouble. Ron, as we know, is always critical of both his friends whether they deserve it or not.

I don't think this comparison really goes anywhere, but I will say that it amuses me to consider it.

Welcoming dungbombs and thoughts....



Puck - Mar 30, 2005 7:08 pm (#26 of 296)

Harry has shown an ability to keep information to himself. He knew about Neville's family and didn't say a word. Hermione can also keep a secret (the time turner). I think Harry may tell her -if she asks- about why he wasn't made prefect, but neither would tell Ron.

Harry knows how Ron feels about Hermione better than Ron knows. It would not cause discord, no more than usual anyway. (Ever notice that Ron is always part of the squabble?)



Solitaire - Mar 30, 2005 8:10 pm (#27 of 296)

Who will be the new Quidditch captain? I can't remember how old Angelina, Katie and Alicia are. If all three are the same age as the twins, they are now out of Hogwarts. Hm ... could Ron or Ginny wind up as Captain? Sorry ... I know this isn't really on topic, but someone brought it up a few posts back. Where could we continue the discussion, if anyone wants to? Suggestions, please ...

Solitaire

Hollywand [/b]- Mar 30, 2005 10:12 pm (#28 of 296)

Hi Catherine! Your comment about the Runespoor and the trio is great, and I do think Rowling intends a metaphor there.

Hermione often hatches the action plans, potions, armies, news articles.

Harry certainly has more than his share of dreams, some highly unwelcome.

Ron is a bit of a critic, especially when evaluation others outside the trio!

And, they are very tightly bound friends.

Did you know the Runespoor is actually a mythological creature, sourced, I believe, from Indian culture.

I also think the Runespoor is Jo making a hilarious reference to her own internal creative process----she has these tremendous creative dreams, and sits dreaming all day, the planner nudges her gently forward, and the critical side of herself imagines all the things others will say about what she wrote. The only direction forward, is to bite the head off the critic..... ;-)



Paulus Maximus - Mar 30, 2005 10:14 pm (#29 of 296)

Which does not bode well for Ron...



ruthlesspenguin - Mar 31, 2005 3:02 am (#30 of 296)

Puck, I don't think Harry would just walk up to Ron and say 'Hey Ron guess what Dumbledore told me.' I can, however, imagine CAPS-LOcK Harry revealing the information in the heat of the moment.

Solitaire, I thought I could remember some discussion about the captaincy issue. I did a search and found this on the predictions for book 6 and 7 thread. It wasn't what I was thinking of, perhaps I was remembering an editorial, however it covers most of the points I remember.

<(')



Paulus Maximus - Mar 31, 2005 10:49 am (#31 of 296)

What I thought didn't bode well for Ron was the remark about "biting the head off the critic". Sorry for the confusion.



Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 31, 2005 12:08 pm (#32 of 296)

A few posts previously it was mentioned that the trio had evolved into a sextet in OotP. The question I have is a two-fold one. First, how will this change affect the internal relationships of the trio of Harry Ron and Hermione? Second, will the evolution from a trio into a sextet be a permenant change?



StareyedSlytherin - Mar 31, 2005 1:33 pm (#33 of 296)

Hi, sorry to offend anyone with my last post. I actually did have that exact quote that Catherine posted in mind when I suggested a thread, but not so much JKR's religious background as what's said in the last part of the quote. I'd just always found that comment to be very interesting, but I guess I just got overly excited that someone else in the forum has the same idea as me. I'll just leave it at that though. Again, I'm very sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't intentional.



Ponine - Mar 31, 2005 4:38 pm (#34 of 296)

Stareyed, I am right there with you. It opened up doors that I thought were walls, and I am very excited about it, although I fully see how it could become hairy to elaborate on this forum. If anyone wants to talk about it, my email is on my page Smile (I hope that is ok to say, if not, please let me know)

As far as out the sextet is concerned, I am torn. I am usually a sucker for status quo, and that is certainly the case in this scenario. The six do however compliment each other extremely well, and form a solid group. I still believe that the trio will always be a sub-group, though, but I also think that Harry and Ron have a sub-group within the current trio, and it seems to work, so, I don't know. I do believe that there are somethings in life you can't go through without becoming friends, and fighting death eaters in the Ministry of Magic is one of them... Smile



Puck - Mar 31, 2005 6:41 pm (#35 of 296)

I agree fully Ponine. The trio will remain, but will broaden their relationship to include the others. Ginny already has strong bonds to Ron and Hermione, and is becoming closer with Harry. Neville has been sharing a dorm with Harry and Ron for 5 years now. And Luna, well she just seems to fit, adding a counter balance to Hermione's rational thinking, while simutaneously being a calming force to Harry. I can see different combinations at work throughout the last books, but the bonds of the original 3 will always remain strong.



StareyedSlytherin - Mar 31, 2005 8:42 pm (#36 of 296)

I think that the original trio will always be the main trio of the series, but I see the forming of a sextet as a sort of branching out of the trio. They'll need all the support they can get in the future, and have worked very well together as part of a larger group as we've seen from OOTP. But I think that Harry will always count on Ron and Hermione before anyone else. He's just beginning to develop a loyal following. Although I'm sure that their experiences in OOTP will strenghthen the friendships of all six, I still see Ginny, Neville, and Luna as a sort of sub~trio. They'll be there to back him up and help him out of tight situations, but I think he'll always be closer to Hermione and Ron. The three of them have been through more together.



magicgirl - Apr 1, 2005 3:29 am (#37 of 296)

I think the trio will remain and be the focus of the series but that they others will become a part of a wider group that they socialise with and perhaps bring them in on plans when necessary. I don't think Harry will tell Ron what Dumbledore said, it wouldn't achieve anything except hurt Ron. Ron and Hermione are essential to Harry, I don't think he could do all the things he has done without their help, a fact he has acknowledged in his more rational moments in Order of the Phoenix. I hope they will always be there to help him. They are his family as far as I am concerned.



Joanne R. Reid - Apr 1, 2005 4:56 pm (#38 of 296)

Hi,

I agree with almost everyone that if Ron and Hermione were to become more serious about each other, it would not materially affect the trio.

One of us said that Harry seemed to already know that Ron was soft of Hermione, but didn't know he was. Hermione has strong feelings for both the boys. However, she does seem to be more interested in what Ron thinks, says or does than she does about Harry.

So, my guess would be that this trio would be much like the trio of James, Sirius and Lily. Jim's best friend was Sirius; his wife was Lily. Ron's best friend will always be Harry.

Won't it be great to watch it all unfold? Accio July 16!

Thanks,



Solitaire - Apr 1, 2005 11:12 pm (#39 of 296)

Ruthless, I read your link about Ron and Quidditch. It make sense, but I wonder ... if Ron were to become Quidditch captain, how would that affect his participation in Harry's other adventures? If Ron were to assume the position of captain, would those responsibilities--coupled with his school work--kind of rule out some of his involvement in Harry's "private" activities, of which he has always been such a part? And if this happened--notice I said IF, so I'm only speculating--could it open the door for more participation by someone else? Just speculating and questioning ...

Solitaire



ruthlesspenguin - Apr 2, 2005 12:53 am (#40 of 296)

Solitaire, I confess I posted the link because I thought it provided a good summary of what we know about possible captains, and not because I agree with the conclusions. The editorial I was thinking about was this mugglenet editorial, and I agree with the author that Harry as captain makes more sense in terms of plot development.

With regards to the implications of either being made captain, I see one of two situations. Firstly, if there is no Harry/Ron conflict, I imagine them working very closely together, acting almost as co-captains. Ron has the strategic talent and Harry the experience, so in this scenario I see the time spent together increasing.

On the other hand, in the case of a Harry/Ron conflict, I think whatever they are fighting about and not the time requirement of being Quidditch captain would cause Harry to look elsewhere for support. Who he might turn to could be quite interesting. I think such a fight would be bigger than what we saw in GoF, and therefore Hermione and other friends of the trio would find it more difficult to remain neutral.

<(')



Solitaire - Apr 2, 2005 1:10 am (#41 of 296)

Ruthless, I agree and can see potential problems with either Ron or Harry being captain. That is why I wondered about Katie or Ginny. Sadly, with the twins, Angelina, and Alicia gone, Gryffindor has a pretty "green" team, don't you think? Harry and Katie are the strongest and most experienced players. Ginny is agressive, though, and may turn out to be as gifted as Harry and Angelina.

I wonder if--with a team that is not quite as spectacular as it once was--Quidditch will become less important in the coming books. Or perhaps there will be a brand new Gryffindor who will come in as a "natural" for one of the positions--much like Harry did. Poor McGonagall ... I fear she is in for a disappointing season.

Solitaire



Puck - Apr 2, 2005 7:25 am (#42 of 296)

I don't think either being captain will cause a conflict. Harry has come too far in realizing what is truly important to let something like that upset him. He has heavier things on his mind, and I see him gaining more control over his emotions. If Harry makes captain Ron will understand that Harry has been on the team longer, and has proven himself on multiple occasions. I think we've played out the whole Harry and Ron being jealous of each other thing.



Ponine - Apr 2, 2005 12:09 pm (#43 of 296)

You know, Ron actually has a fairly good chance of attaining everything he saw in Erised in his first year at Hogwarts. I have a feeling we will see this, and that Harry will as well. Undoubtedly, it will be a bittersweet moment for Harry; while wishing Ron nothing but the best, also knowing that he himself will never be able to get what he so desperately wanted... and now my mind frantically races with the notion that the whole scene above would build up to Ron's demise, and I don't want to go there...



Ff3girl - Apr 2, 2005 1:03 pm (#44 of 296)

WAH! I don't want to go there either!!! It makes way too much sense. *stifles a sob*

[hells456]hells456 [/b]- Apr 2, 2005 1:50 pm (#45 of 296)

I agree Ponine, I think Ron is on his way to getting what he saw in the mirror.

Unfortunately I think Harry will get his desire too, and the only way I can see Harry surrounded by his dead family is for him to die and join them.

Ron lives out his dream, Harry dies out his. :-(

Hells



ruthlesspenguin - Apr 2, 2005 3:49 pm (#46 of 296)

I disagree that Ron will achieve everything he saw in the mirror. I think what they represent is more important. To Ron's first year mind, if he was the good looking Head boy and Quidditch captain who won Gryffindor the house and Quidditch cup, there would be no question of him just being 'Weasley number 6'. To me, having Ron achieve everything he saw in the mirror is equating happiness with material possessions and achievements. What's the point of being head boy and Quidditch captain if you still believe you need to be selected for the national Quidditch team, date a quarter Veela and run a successful business to be considered worthy?

I think it is much more important for Ron to realise that he has already distinguished himself from his brothers, and that he should base his decisions on what he thinks, not on what others will think of him. One way Ron could do this would be by deciding to date Hermione. Where as in the past Ron was more concerned about appearances (taking the best looking girl to the Yule ball), dating Hermione would be based solely on his own feelings.

I suppose what Ron saw in the mirror could come true, but it will be in more of a 'everything that had seemed so important in first year now no longer seemed to matter' kind of way. To quote Harry 'D'you think he'll [Voldemort] leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor win the house cup?' (Through the Trapdoor, PS). Unfortunately by book 7 they will have other things on their minds.

Solitaire, I think if Ginny were appointed it would be as problematic as if Harry or Ron were. Ron would have problems taking orders from his sister and Harry from an inferior seeker. The rest of the team would probably follow their lead, while Hermione would side with Ginny (all my opinion of course, but I don't think she is ready to be captain). Appointing Katie would just delay the issue by one year, so I think it is probably best to appoint Harry or Ron and hope they sort out any problems soon enough.

As I am pretty convinced by that editorial that Harry will be captain, I think that Gryffindor will only win the final match of the season (which will be against Slytherin), so not a good year for McGonnagal. I say this because, as you mention, the team will be pretty green this year, and we have seen previously that Harry's strategy in dealing with less able players is to shoulder the burden himself and try to catch the Snitch sooner. It will only be when he asks Ron for help with strategy and looks at the team as a whole that he will have any success.

Such a situation would help Harry to realise how valuable his friends are, and therefore strengthen the bonds of the trio.

<(')



StareyedSlytherin - Apr 2, 2005 8:16 pm (#47 of 296)

I agree that it would benefit Harry more as captain than it would for any of the other current players [and I think I may have read that same Mugglenet editorial some time ago LoL!] but I don't think that would necessarily mean that the team would turn out too bad. Ginny might not be as good a seeker as Harry, but she's still proved herself to be a good player. Ron has potential and I think he's just really starting to realise that, so I think it could end up being a good year for him. Harry is the best player in school, I believe, and is also the kind of leader that the rest of the team would respect and have no problems taking orders from. Also, if he could train a group of kids to take on a larger group of DE's the way they did at the end of OOTP, then I'm sure he could lead a Quidditch team to victory. Of course there will be struggles, but if things were all that bad, with all that Harry's going to have on his mind, I don't know if he'd be able to get it together enough to battle DE's and/or Voldy and win a game against Slytherin as well.



Joanne R. Reid - Apr 5, 2005 9:48 am (#48 of 296)
Edited Apr 5, 2005 10:49 am

Hi,

Harry has already demonstrated his leadership abilities. His efforts in teaching the DA to not only pass their OWL in DADA, but also to use their skills effectively is a remarkable achievement for a 15-year old.

However, I don't think this translates into the Captaincy of the Quidditch team this year. Katie Belle is as experienced as Harry and this is her last year. Further, as a Chaser, she has been in the thick of it throughout her career. As a Seeker, Harry has not been a part of either the offensive team or the defensive team. His position requires him to be aloof from the rest of the game. He must ignore everything else in the single-minded pursuit of the Snitch. Therefore, I do not think that Harry should be the Captain this year.

As for next year, I suspect that Ron will be the Captain. My reasoning would follow the same line as above.

However, I don't think that Ron will be Head Boy. I would hope that it will finally be Harry's turn. This would recognize not only his background as the "boy who lived" but also his ongoing and highly successful struggle against Voldemort.

Anyhoo, it sounds good to me. Accio, Half-Blood Prince!

Thanks,



Paulus Maximus - Apr 5, 2005 2:24 pm (#49 of 296)
Edited Apr 5, 2005 3:25 pm

Ron isn't as experienced as Harry is at Quidditch. In book 7, Harry will have played Quidditch for 5 years (not counting book 4), Ron for 2. (And that's assuming that there will be Quidditch in book 6, and both of them will be on the team...)

So I don't think that the same reasoning for why Katie should be captain in book 6 could be used to argue why Ron should be in book 7.



kabloink! - Apr 6, 2005 5:19 am (#50 of 296)

I always pictured Pon's ability at Wizard Chess to play a role beyond SS, somehow. I figured he was good at strategy, which would make him a good Quidditch captain, my only question would be his leadership. He hasn't shown very much to date, and I can't imagine seeing much more pop up in the next two books. could be very wrong about that, though. SO much has to happen, ,maybe ROn wll become a leaer...

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Joanne R. Reid - Apr 6, 2005 6:03 am (#51 of 296)
Edited Apr 6, 2005 7:07 am

HI, Paulus,

Ah, yes. Sorry I cut the argument so short. I felt that I was making perfect sense. Wrong! Wink

My commentary was based on the positions of the players, their interactions with other players and, therefore, of the strategy and tactics of the game.

1. Ron is a Quidditch fanatic. Harry hadn't even heard about Quidditch until his arrival at Hogwarts. So, Ron has significantly greater knowledge of the game, its tactics and strategies.

2. Seekers are of on their own, having little to do with anyone else on the team. Therefore, Harry has little opportunity to gain the insights into the game that would be needed in a Captain.

Although it is hard to draw an analogy, I think of a punter in American football as similar to a Seeker. Of all the people on the team, punters have the least interaction with the other players or coaches. They have little opportunity to gain the kinds of experience or insight needed to effectively coach and manage their team. And, as we have seen, it is the job of the Quidditch Captain to try out new players, schedule and perform practices, coach players, develop and implement team tactics, develop and implement team strategies, etc.

3. Of all the players, it is the Keeper who sees the entire field, observes all the players and has the opportunity to judge the performance players as individuals and as members of the team.

Again, I would analogize this to a catcher in baseball. The catcher is the only member of the team who sees the whole field and sees all the players in action. The catcher also controls the game by calling the pitches and moving players both in the infield and outfield according to a predetermined strategy or a game condition. Since the House Quidditch teams have no coaches or managers, the Captain, who is also a player, must perform all the roles. Who better than the one person who can see the entire game?

Although this listing is by no means inclusive, it does give us the general idea. Ron has the long-term interest in Quidditch and knowledge of the game. By their final year, Ron will have had three years on the team. He will have seen everyone's performance, not only as individuals but as members of their respective squads. He will have formulated strategies and will be eager to implement them. Harry will have been far removed from all of these critical roles, because he is busy Seeking the Golden Snitch.

Therefore, Ron should become the Captain of the Gryffindor Quidditch Team, while Harry remains its Seeker and Hero.

Finally, I don't believe that either Ron or Harry would be upset by Ron becoming Captain. I think that Harry fought his demon when Ron became Prefect. Harry would be elated that his greatest friend was Captain and would try in every way to help him. Ron, on the other hand, would know his greatest friend was on of the best Seekers in Hogwart's history. This would only make his job easier. And, the two of them would share in the glory of victory and of winning the Quidditch Cup.

I hope this explains my thoughts a little more cogently.

Thanks.



Ydnam96 - Apr 6, 2005 7:01 am (#52 of 296)

Joanne, makes perfect sense Smile



Choices - Apr 6, 2005 8:22 am (#53 of 296)

I think when HRH played the chess game in SS we saw Ron take over as the leader and director of the group. He told the others what to do and called the plays, making the decision to sacrifice himself so that Harry could go on. He really showed leadership and decision making ability. I think Ron will make a fine Quidditch captain. Now that the twins are gone, he will gain confidence and be really good.



Solitaire - Apr 6, 2005 9:33 pm (#54 of 296)

Angelina, the last Captain, was a Chaser, correct? I do agree, though--especially with our current bunch--that the Keeper makes the most sense to be Captain for the reasons you state. He seems to move less than the others. Seeker, Chasers and Beaters are constantly on the go. They would seem to have fewer opportunities to size up the situation while the game is in progress.

Solitaire



frogface - Apr 7, 2005 1:14 am (#55 of 296)

It makes sense, but there are exceptions. Both Charlie Weasley and Cedric Diggory were Seekers and both had sucessful teams.



Joanne R. Reid - Apr 7, 2005 11:01 am (#56 of 296)

Hi,Frogface,

Of course, you are correct. But, as we know, it is the exception that proves the rule.

It would appear that Charlie was an exceptional player. We know that Cedric was exceptional in every way. Both of these men had studied the game of Quidditch. Both had great expertise developed over many years of study and play. It is all the more to their credit that they were able to accomplish so much.

I wouldn't put either Ron or Harry in the same company as Charlie and Cedric. Harry is indeed a gifted Seeker, but he doesn't know the game. So, that'd leave Ron as the only qualified candidate in their seventh year. And, if their last game was any example of how well Ron is capable of playing, he might indeed be a great Captain ... assuming, of course, he survives that long.

Accio, Half-Blood Prince!

Thanks,



Catherine - Apr 7, 2005 12:46 pm (#57 of 296)

Harry is indeed a gifted Seeker, but he doesn't know the game. --Joanne R Reid

I'm not sure I follow you. Harry has been playing team Quidditch since his first year at Hogwarts. He reads books about Quidditch, and has watched a World Cup Quidditch game. He has spent a lot of time playing Quidditch with the Weasleys.

How does he not know the game?



haymoni - Apr 7, 2005 3:37 pm (#58 of 296)

We don't see Harry pouring over strategy. He seems to kind of wing it out there.

If they get a decent DADA teacher, Harry won't have to spend time teaching it. He could be the captain. Wood did it when he was a 5th year. Who knows? Katie may want to spend more time studying for her NEWTs and won't want the added stress of being captain.



Joanne R. Reid - Apr 7, 2005 7:10 pm (#59 of 296)
Edited Apr 7, 2005 8:11 pm

Hi, Catherine,

I was trying to make two separate but interrelated points:

Premise:

1. Harry does NOT know the game of Quidditch;Ron does know the game of Quidditch.

2. Ron is in a far better position to study the game, learn the strengths and weaknesses of his team, develop strategies and tactics, and implement them than is Harry.

Explanation:

1. Harry is new to the game. He spent the first eleven years of his life in utter ignorance of the very existence of Quidditch. Ron's room is plastered with Chudley Cannons posters. Ron eats, sleeps and dreams Quidditch. He gerw up in a family of famous and excellent Quidditch players. He knows the pro teams, their players and their qualities. Harry didn't even know about the Quidditch finals, who was in them or any of the players. He had never even heard of Victor Krum!

2. As a Seeker, Harry must single-mindedly pursue the Golden Snitch. He is not a part of the offense. He is not a part of the defense. He is on his own, flying anywhere he wishes.

Ron, on the other hand, defends the three goals. He is always looking out onto the pitch watching the flight of six Chasers, six Beaters, two Bludgers and one Quaffle. He must study the flight of all these people and objects to be in a position to defend his goals. He is the only person on his team to be in a position to see what's going on, and it is his job to do so. Therefore, Ron can obtain the knowledge of the respective teams, while Harry can not.

Conclusion:

Since Ron is interested in the strategy and tactics of Quidditch and is in a unique positions to observe and judge the performance of both Chasers and Beaters, he is by far the better choice. Harry may have been on the team longer, but he does not have the background, the interest or the opportunity to perform any of the functions of the team Captain.

Thanks.



MickeyCee3948 - Apr 7, 2005 9:11 pm (#60 of 296)

I don't really think that it matters what any of us think. The captain has already been determined and we will find out who it is on July 16th. JKR doesn't need our help or advise on who would be most logical for the position. She is going to put whoever she feels will advance her story line regardless of logic.

Mikie



Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 10:04 pm (#61 of 296)

Joanne R. Reid -> 1. Harry does NOT know the game of Quidditch; Ron does know the game of Quidditch.

Harry wasn't out swiming in the lake while Oliver explained the Chasers and Beaters what stategies to use, Harry was in the room too. He also read Quidditch books that explain strategies, he have been on the team for 4 years, have played with the Weasley at their place and have seen the QWC. I mean, you can win your school voleyball tornament without knowing who was the world champion in 1975! Ron is more knoledgable about Quiditch, but that alone is not enough to make a good Captain.

Joanne R. Reid -> 2. Ron is in a far better position to study the game, learn the strengths and weaknesses of his team, develop strategies and tactics, and implement them than is Harry.

Harry does not have to realese the snitch, or he can watch his players half and hour then look for the snitch. Even if he try to catch the Snitch, a Seeker most spot where are the Beaters, the Bulgars and the Chasers (he still can't pas through them, can he?), he also have to keep an eye on the quaffle and the points to be sure 150 pts will be enough to win.

Joanne R. Reid -> 3. Of all the players, it is the Keeper who sees the entire field, observes all the players and has the opportunity to judge the performance players as individuals and as members of the team.

Again, the Seeker does not have to play, he can stand asside and watch the game without messing with the other players performance, while a Keeper have to catch the ball are the chaser won't get use to pass a Keeper.



Solitaire - Apr 8, 2005 1:17 am (#62 of 296)

A great deal has been said about Harry needing Quidditch to blow off steam. I agree with this. However, I don't think that necessarily translates to his needing to be the Captain.

I agree with Vball man that Harry is going to have a lot on his plate in HBP. While he loves Quidditch and greatly missed playing in books 4 & 5, I am not sure he would even want to be the Captain. That would put a HUGE burden on his already-overloaded shoulders. I tend to think Harry would prefer to just play Quidditch without having to be responsible for what everyone else is doing, too. That is far more conducive to letting off steam. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



Ginerva Potter - Apr 8, 2005 2:48 pm (#63 of 296)
Edited Apr 8, 2005 3:49 pm

I think Joanne means that Ron is more of the strategist than Harry. Example - Harry had heard of the Wronski Feint(sp?)from Wood, but until he saw it in GOF, he really didn't get it.

Harry doesn't have the benefit of seeing Quidditch all his life. He didn't have any older brothers to talk strategy or show him different moves. Ron has. So, it seems that Ron would make the better Captain because he has grown-up with Quidditch.

Ginny



S.E. Jones - Apr 8, 2005 7:18 pm (#64 of 296)
Edited Apr 8, 2005 8:18 pm

--Solitaire: I tend to think Harry would prefer to just play Quidditch without having to be responsible for what everyone else is doing, too. That is far more conducive to letting off steam. JM2K, of course ...--

I tend to agree, Solitaire. Harry becoming Captain may take away the fun of the game which, to Harry, has always been a release from his responsibilities. I'm reminded of a line from OP when he leapt into the air on his Firebolt and flew away from Privet Drive, 'For a few glorious moments, all his problems seemed to recede into nothing, insignificant in the vast, starry sky.'



Ff3girl - Apr 8, 2005 11:26 pm (#65 of 296)

That's another reason why I believe Harry would not enjoy to be a professional quidditch player. If he had to depend on quidditch for his livelihood, would it be a release for him at all? Then of course, there would probably always be a group of people within the wizarding community who would see Harry getting a spot on the team simply because he's a famous name.



Solitaire - Apr 10, 2005 10:43 am (#66 of 296)
Edited Apr 10, 2005 11:43 am

I think professional Quidditch would be fun for Harry--AFTER he has left Hogwarts, cleared up the pesky Voldemort problem, etc. I just do not think this is the proper time for it.

Actually, there is a thread where people speculate on the Students' Future Careers. That might be a fun place to take this debate, as well.

Solitaire



Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 10, 2005 6:15 pm (#67 of 296)
Edited Apr 10, 2005 7:24 pm

I doubt that Harry will be Quidditch Captain for the same reason he was not made a Prefect siimply because, his mind will be concentrated elsewhere. If Ron becomes Captain it seems possible that such an event could reinforce the already strong bond that he and Harry share.



Choices - Apr 11, 2005 9:15 am (#68 of 296)

I like that idea Nathan. I agree with you.



librarian314 - Apr 12, 2005 9:33 am (#69 of 296)

Hey all!

I think that Harry needs to be able to play Quidditch in the coming school year, to take his mind off of what has happened. He needs a distraction to keep him from thinking about having to deal with Voldemort and Sirius' death constantly. If he were more like Hermione, I'd say he throw himself into his studies, but he's not.

I also think that becoming the Captain of the Quidditch team would be a good way to prepare him for the upcoming conflict in that it would give him practice in directing people, supporting them in their efforts, and getting them to work together, in a relatively safe environment. (People don't usually die during a Quidditch game like they do in a war.)

I don't think that Ron's lifelong knowledge of the game makes him more qualified to be captain. He's struck me as being more argumentative than the other three and not very tactful. When you're in charge of a team, tact (and other people skills, that Ron doesn't have in spades) and the ability to negotiate are necessary. I could see a mutiny brew if Ron was captain. He'd make some unpopular decisions, not explain them in the best way possible, and upset a bunch of people. I adore Ron but I agree with Hermione that the boy's got the emotional range of a teaspoon.

If Harry does get to be captain, Hermione will find the books that discuss strategies, etc. and Ron will help him on the more practical aspects. It'll be, as usual, a team effort between the three.

# *michelle the librarian**



Steve Newton - Apr 12, 2005 9:46 am (#70 of 296)

I don't recall Wood or Angelina being too tactful.

Whether or not Ron's lifelong knowledge qualifies him to be captain, I don't know. But it does make him more qualified than Harry.



Paulus Maximus - Apr 12, 2005 10:10 am (#71 of 296)

"When you're in charge of a team, tact (and other people skills, that Ron doesn't have in spades) and the ability to negotiate are necessary."

While we're at it, Harry isn't exactly tactful or diplomatic either...



Choices - Apr 12, 2005 4:51 pm (#72 of 296)

In that case.....Hermione for Quidditch captain. LOL



OkieAngel - Apr 12, 2005 10:31 pm (#73 of 296)

Sure, why not, Choices?? I mean, does it really say somewhere in the Quidditch rules that the Captain has to be able to actually fly during the game??

Wink



Choices - Apr 13, 2005 8:11 am (#74 of 296)

Right! Football coaches don't actually play the game. Hermione could be more of a coach and wouldn't have to play. LOL



OkieAngel - Apr 13, 2005 10:30 am (#75 of 296)
Edited Apr 13, 2005 12:28 pm

Well, to try and bring this conversation somewhat close to topic, I think if Hermione was to encroach upon the sacred world of Quidditch, it would turn the trio's internal relationship quickly into internal combustion. For one thing, I do not see Ron being able to take instruction and criticism from her on something as near and dear to him as quidditch. He barely tolerates it from her in matters of academia, where he knows she excels. For Harry, on the other hand, quidditch is an escape. It's somewhere that he can feel free and footloose, relying on his natural abilities and instincts. I don't see him appreciating Hermione analyzing and nit-picking, trying to see the "why and how" of the game any more than Ron. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say the boys want her banned from the pitch. I just think that, in this instance, they prefer her to remain in the stands, being their faithful cheerleader.





Catherine - Apr 13, 2005 12:32 pm (#76 of 296)

Hermione would have to learn the difference between a "Wronski Feint" and a Wonky Faint.

She's good with feelings, but she just doesn't understand about Quidditch.

Seeing Hermione involved with Quidditch would be like Ron admonishing people to pay attention to Professor Binns in History of Magic class, or bragging about how he writes in his homework planner. Or Snape suddenly curling his hair and wearing magenta colored robes and signing autographs.

In other words, it just feels wrong!



TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 13, 2005 12:56 pm (#77 of 296)

"Or Snape suddenly curling his hair and wearing magenta colored robes and signing autographs."

Or maybe just washing his hair? ;-)



Choices - Apr 13, 2005 4:36 pm (#78 of 296)

LOL I totally agree. I was being facetious when I said Hermione for captain. I was referring to her being more tactful that either of the boys.



Catherine - Apr 13, 2005 4:50 pm (#79 of 296)

LOL, Choices.

Except that athletes, and Captains, especially, may not be known for being tactful.

If being tactless is a prerequisite, then Ron is all set!



Paulus Maximus - Apr 13, 2005 5:35 pm (#80 of 296)

And so is Harry.

Although he was rather indignant when Hermione pointed out that he was tactless...

...which I guess is a case in point...



Harry-ette - Apr 14, 2005 4:28 am (#81 of 296)

Quick question - how much power did Umbridge have when she banned Harry from Quidditch for life? I'm worried he won't be able to play.



Solitaire - Apr 14, 2005 6:10 am (#82 of 296)

Probably now that the Hogwarts High Inquisitor no longer exists as such (I think), the ban she imposed from that position--along with the rest of her stupid decrees, I hope--will cease to exist.

Solitaire



Catherine - Apr 14, 2005 7:00 am (#83 of 296)

I agree with you, Solitaire.

I think the conversation that Ginny and Harry shared in the library served the purpose of showing a closer friendship between the two, but also to let JKR "say" that the ban was only in effect while Umbridge was at Hogwarts, and that Ginny would not wish to play Seeker if Harry was available to do so.

I fully expect Harry to have his broomstick and his position on the Quidditch team back in HBP. Do we think that Harry playing Quidditch with Ron and Ginny will affect Harry's relationship with Hermione?



Solitaire - Apr 14, 2005 10:13 am (#84 of 296)
Edited Apr 14, 2005 11:15 am

It is possible that, with the addition of Neville, Ginny and Luna to Harry's "inner circle" of friends--and having battled the DEs together will surely raise their status in his world--some dynamics will change a bit. But I still see Harry's relationships with Ron and Hermione--both individually and as "the trio"--to be pretty rock-solid.

It is possible that a dating relationship between Ron and Hermione might skew things a bit; but I do not see such a relationship as being something that would ultimately cause any serious breaks among the trio. If Harry's sentiments after their post-Yule Ball row are any indicator, he may already be aware of an undercurrent of interest between the two of them.

At the end of OotP Harry thinks how his feelings for Cho seem to be part of some life that is long past (or something like that). Of course, this could simply be due to the newness of Sirius's death and finding out about his ultimate role ("marked man") with regard to Voldemort. And perhaps, as soon as someone catches his fancy, he will probably be quite interested in love once again. Unless Hermione has serious feelings for Harry, I don't see her being too bothered by Quidditch or any "girlfriends" Harry may acquire.

Solitaire



Paulus Maximus - Apr 14, 2005 10:51 am (#85 of 296)

"It is possible that a dating relationship between Ron and Hermione might skew things a bit; but I do not see such a relationship as being something that would ultimately cause any serious breaks among the trio."

I think I heard something about comparing Harry, Ron, and Hermione to Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere. Considering how the affair between Lancelot and Guinevere affected Arthur's relationships to them, I'm starting to worry that a 'ship might do the same to the HRH trio...



Solitaire - Apr 14, 2005 1:41 pm (#86 of 296)

If the trio is indeed modeled on the Arthur-Guinivere-Lancelot trio, a relationship among them would certainly not bode well. The big difference I see between the trios is that, in the case of the former, an existing marital bond was shattered by infidelity. No such bond exists (yet) among our trio.

Solitaire



Catherine - Apr 14, 2005 3:53 pm (#87 of 296)

To add to Solitaire's post, wasn't Lancelot Arthur's nephew?

There isn't YET an established familial bond, either.

Right now, they have all met as equals: students, friends, united under the banner of Hogwarts.

[Dierken, Robert]Robert Dierken [/b]- Apr 14, 2005 5:42 pm (#88 of 296)

Lancelot was the son of King Ban of Benwick. Mordred was Arthur's nephew. (and Galahad was Lancelot's son.)



Paulus Maximus - Apr 14, 2005 8:48 pm (#89 of 296)

"The big difference I see between the trios is that, in the case of the former, an existing marital bond was shattered by infidelity. No such bond exists (yet) among our trio."

Point taken. And such a bond will not exist until all three of them have finished Hogwarts...



OkieAngel - Apr 14, 2005 8:57 pm (#90 of 296)
Edited Apr 14, 2005 9:58 pm

If we do see more of a romance developing between Ron and Hermione, I don't think it will necessarily affect Harry negatively. Remember, he's already picked up on the attraction between them, and he didn't seem to mind. The only scenario coming to mind that would affect the group dynamics would be if Ron and Hermione started spending all their time together and excluding Harry. I don't see this happening. Ron and Harry have several interests that they pursue without Hermione. Quidditch, chess, ect. I also think that Hermione is very attuned to Harry's emotions. If she sensed that Harry was feeling excluded or neglected, she would address the issue straightaway. I think there's more of a danger that, as Ron and Hermione come to realise they have feelings for each other that go beyond friendship, they'll bicker over stupid stuff even more than they already do; thus putting Harry in the middle once more. I see this as more of a potential problem for their group friendship than any jealousy on Harry's part.

jm2k...



S.E. Jones - Apr 15, 2005 4:08 pm (#91 of 296)

Just a reminder: If we get too into 'shipping, we need to move the discussion onto the 'Ship thread.



librarian314 - Apr 18, 2005 6:52 am (#92 of 296)

Hey all!

Instead of seeing the trio in an Arthurian light (Arthur, Lancelot, Guenivere) I tend to see them more in a Star Wars Luke, Leia, Han arrangement. (No, I'm NOT implying I think Harry and Hermione are siblings separated at birth or anything.)

They work well together, with Harry and Hermione acting more like caring siblings than romantic partners. (It was Harry that remembered that Hermione was in the bathroom crying and dragged Ron to go and rescue her in PS/SS.) The bickering between Ron and Hermione is reminiscent of the barb-tossing between Han and Leia.

Although there were times that there were stresses in the Luke, Leia, and Han relationship (at one point Han gets a bit jealous of Luke, (at the beginning of Empire Strikes Back as they are leaving the ice planet but before they get to the Sky City with Lando Calrisian) they work it out. There have been numerous stresses in the Harry, Hermione, and Ron relationship and they keep working it out, because I think that they realize, even if its only subconsciously, that they balance each other out. They do things together that they could not do by themselves.

Perhaps that will be one of the things that we see in HBP. Harry has learned the hard way to heed what Hermione tells him. (She was the one who warned him that going to rescue Sirius may have been a trap.) Hopefully, he won't have to learn an equally hard lesson concerning Ron.

Besides, I like the Luke, Leia, Han analogy better than the Arthurian one because at the end of Return of the Jedi everyone was alive and happy (except the three ghost Jedi).

Y'all take care!

# *michelle the librarian**



Moaning Turtle - Apr 18, 2005 2:12 pm (#93 of 296)

I wonder if Hermione will ever figure out that Harry and Ron threw away the homework planner things she gave them for christmas one year..



Choices - Apr 18, 2005 5:16 pm (#94 of 296)

I doubt it, unless it would advance the plot in some way.



Moaning Turtle - Apr 19, 2005 1:09 pm (#95 of 296)
Edited Apr 19, 2005 2:10 pm

If she did, i bet the friendship would tempararily end, like it did with Ron and Harry in GoF, considering how hyped up on homework Hermione is.

Hermione seems to know a lot more about Harry than he himself does, im thinking that in the later books, she'll spit something out anout him, that he didn't even know, maybe how to access the curtain where Sirius and Luna's mom are.



Paulus Maximus - Apr 20, 2005 3:05 pm (#96 of 296)

"she'll spit something out anout him, that he didn't even know"

Like the fact that Harry acts tactlessly, perhaps?



Choices - Apr 20, 2005 5:39 pm (#97 of 296)

LOL I'll bet that Hermione could give Harry a "heads up" on a lot of things about himself of which he isn't aware. Most women can do that. ;-)



Betelgeuse Black - Apr 29, 2005 8:48 am (#98 of 296)

I think the trio will survive but there is always the possibility of strife. There has been a certain amount of friction between the characters throughout the books. PoA and GoF have extended periods where they aren't really a trio at all. Hermione regularly harps on a subject until Harry or Ron stop talking to her for the rest of the day.

I think a dating 'ship' would stress the trio but I don't see it as a trio-breaker.

Betelgeuse



Puck - Apr 29, 2005 6:23 pm (#99 of 296)

I'm waiting for the day when Harry and Ron grab her and force her to share her idea BEFORE running to the library. It never fails, she mumbles a few incoherent partial sentences, runs off to check facts, leaving the boys confused, and the lack of info gets someone in trouble. In the CoS she knows the answer but is petrified and can't share, Ginny nearly gets killed. Harry has a fight with Cho, since he has no idea why Harry needs him at the Three Broomsticks. I know JKR uses this as a tool, but if I were a friend of hers I'd hold her down and tell her to "Spill it" so I could have a clue of what to look out for (such as a reporter disguised as an insect.)



Ludicrous Patents Office - May 2, 2005 5:59 pm (#100 of 296)

Puck I think Hermione is very nervous about making mistakes. She always wants to check her facts first. It would be nice for her to actually tell them what is going on! LPO

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Moaning Turtle - May 13, 2005 4:03 am (#101 of 296)

Well, i agree with you all about the trio surviving any "battles" between them, but i can't help but wonder if Ron and Harry did something even more life threatening then they do now (almost impossible), would Hermione sell them out, so she can do what's right?



Solitaire - May 13, 2005 6:22 am (#102 of 296)

I doubt Hermione would sell out Ron and Harry--or anyone else, for that matter. I suspect a turning point was passed together with the six who went to the Ministry. Since book one, we have seen Hermione progressively circumvent the rules when she felt it was warranted. The only time I can see her "telling on them" would be in an instance of extreme danger to their lives. No, on second thought, I don't even see it then. I think she has reached a point where she realizes that they all must do as their consciences dictate.

Solitaire



Betelgeuse Black - May 13, 2005 11:31 am (#103 of 296)

I thought it was interesting that the trio has the three main cores that are used in wand making, phoenix feather (Harry), dragon heartstring (Hermione), and unicorn tail hair (Ron). I got this from the FAQ on JKR's website.

OK, how does this relate to the trio? Speculation anyone?

Betelgeuse



frogface - May 14, 2005 1:30 am (#104 of 296)

I think it just represents that they work as a whole. They all have elements that compliment the trio and therefore work well together. There was a discussion somewhere on this thread a while ago that related to this, I think someone suggested that Harry, Ron and Hermioine all reprepent different parts of the sub-concious mind? Sorry I've just woken up so my brain is even more rubbish than usual.



Choices - May 14, 2005 8:07 am (#105 of 296)

They represent body, mind and spirit if I remember correctly....together they make a whole.



Netherlandic - May 15, 2005 2:26 pm (#106 of 296)

There's another thing too, about there relationship. Ron guides Harry through the wizarding world, Hermione helps Harry with book-knowlege. Harry is quite a accomplished wizard, with his aides Ron and Hermione he can conquer everything.



Miriam Huber - May 16, 2005 4:34 am (#107 of 296)
Edited May 16, 2005 5:35 am

I would imagine the trio very even closer after Oop, simply because Harry will have enough of "I have done more than them" and his "love to play the hero" against the arguments of the other two.

I would expect that Harry is more aware than before how much he needs the other two (in the positive connotation of "need").

The problem that could arise, IMHO, would be a certain R/Hr shipping that I think is bound to come out now *swallows bunch of arguments, wrong thread*. As we know Harry, he might feel left alone/outsider even although the other two never shut him out and do everything that he can feel comfortable in the presence of them both as a ´ship (I believe things of that sort are more difficult to handle with teenage-´ships than with adult ones).

But I won´t say it will definitely happen.



Netherlandic - May 16, 2005 4:50 am (#108 of 296)

Don't worry. I think that Harry will pair up with Ginny in the end...



Ydnam96 - May 16, 2005 7:03 am (#109 of 296)

Miriam, I am quite inclined to agree with you...but I won't say too much as we will get pushed off to the 'ship thread.



Aqualu Nifey - May 17, 2005 4:57 pm (#110 of 296)

Eh, Harry's sullenness should indeed wear off for HBP, he's a sophomore, or virtually a sophomore, part of that includes excessive ego, lack of consideration for underclassmen ("Well, they are, they're twitchy!"), and sullenness, speaking from experience.



Liz Mann - May 30, 2005 2:30 pm (#111 of 296)
Edited May 30, 2005 3:31 pm

I agree that a R/H pairing could make Harry feel left out. The fact is that if Ron and Hermione get together they're naturally going to want to spend time just the two of them. Harry may understand that but that doesn't mean he's going to be happy about it. However, what would probably then happen is that Harry in turn gets closer to someone else. That's what we saw happen in OotP, really. Ron and Hermione became Prefects so Harry had to find someone else to spend time with, and it ended up being Ginny and Neville, and then later Luna joined them. That, I think, it the reason J.K. had for making Ron prefect and not Harry, so that Harry could develop other friendships. Perhaps a R/H pairing could lead to a H/G pairing.



Solitaire - May 30, 2005 6:14 pm (#112 of 296)

A Ron/Hermione relationship could cause problems, but I doubt it. I'll agree that it would certainly change the dynamic a bit; however, since Ron and Hermione are still in school, there is less of an opportunity for them to be off alone than there might be during the summers or after they leave Hogwarts. They are such an integral part of Harry's adventures that I cannot see them abandoning him to pursue a romance. In fact, I think any romance will more than likely "dawn" on Ron as a result of one or some of the adventures.

It should not be forgotten that sometimes, a "singleton" can still have a close relationship with friends who are a couple, even though they have ceased to spend all their waking hours together. Sirius certainly managed it. So have I.

Solitaire



Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 2:54 am (#113 of 296)
Edited May 31, 2005 3:56 am

Yes that's true. And I think Harry will cope with it. But I think he will have to get used to it first and might feel a little left out in the beginning. One thing I know from experience is that couples can get carried away with each other and become self-absorbed and (not to offend anybody on here who has a partner) a little selfish. Not intentionally, obviously, but you know at the beginning of a relationship it's new and exciting and you just want to spend every possible moment together. I know I got left out a bit when my best friend started dating. They were very public and touchy-feely (although I can't see Hermione allowing this in public even if Ron wants it ). But Ron and Hermione will settle down into the relationship, and besides I can't see Hermione failing to notice Harry getting upset or jealous. She's more perceptive than Ron.



essie125 - Jun 9, 2005 5:38 pm (#114 of 296)

Hermione & Ron: In more danger then we know?

Hi all,

As the release of the sixth book is drawing closer and closer I find myself thinking about how the books will end more and more, as do all of you obviously. Then I started thinking about things which struck me as odd only I had always taken them for granted:

1. Why is Hermione at the Order of the Phoenix headquarters in the first place?

Is she in more danger then we know, or is she just that crazy about the whole Weasley family and Ron in particular. She does have her own family. Would you want to spend your summer holidays cleaning an old house? She is not allowed to attend meetings, so there is no real reason for her to be there. Or is there? Could Dumbledore have something to do with her being there. Does he know things about Hermione and her part in the quest against Voldemort. Are there more prophecies abotu Voldemort (and I don't mean by professor Trelawney, because she only made two)?

2. We all know about Hermione and her quest for knowledge right? How big do you think the chance is that after the whole Department of Mysteries Drama, that Hermione would have tried to find out what the prophecy contained?

Knowing Hermione she would want to know and try and find out. I would not be at all surprised that when time comes and Harry finally decides to tell Ron and Hermione about the prophecy that Hermione would react like. I already knew that, but Dumbledore told me to wait until you were ready to tell us (talk) about the prophecy yourself. It would be uncharacteristic of her not too go investigate this matter.

3. Why does Harry never listen to Hermione when she tells him not to do something?

He says that if there is one thing he does not like about her it's that she is ALWAYS right. Does anyone know of a time when hermione was not right? And we also knwo that if Hermione does not know something she will just tell you. After knowing her for 5 years he still does not trust her judgement eventhough she has always been right. Hermione has read a lot of books about Voldemort en his time of terror. She knows what kind of things Voldemort and his followers are capable of. Also she's a great judge of character. Hermione sees things and notices things about other people that Harry and Ron don't. Why doesn't he trust her judgement. He knows he's in danger and yet he doesn't. Hermione or other people always have to point this out to him.

4. How big do you think the chance is that Dumbledore has ever told Ron and Hermione things about Harry, but that they were not allowed to tell him what they know?

Dumbleodre must know by now that their friendship with Harry may have certain consequences for their future, especially after what happened in the fifth book. The will follow Harry no matter what. I'm positive that Dumbledore would have told them something about Harry.

These are just some of the things about the books that I was wondering about. There is more to Ron and Hermione then meets the eye as well. It's not just Harry. Their friendship with him must have also happened for a reason. It's not just coincidence. It's faith. If Harry had not been friends with them he would have never found the philosophers stone, the chamber of secrets or Sirius. He would never have gotten through the triwizard tournament and therefore could not have "helped" Voldemort get his body back. They also play a role in the prophecy. Hermione and Ron have a big part in what happens to Harry and he has a big role in what happens to them.



applepie - Jun 9, 2005 6:16 am (#115 of 296)
Edited Jun 9, 2005 7:16 am

Hermione is a great judge of character. I call it "female intuition" .

I do see your point, but Hermione was "all-to-eager" to join in the antics of Harry and Ron since we first meet her. I think she knows the risks, but has a bit of a daredevil in her. Her knowledge does help her excel, and her friendship with Harry helps Harry to excel through her knowledge. They learn from each other, and depend on each other in a very big way.

I have often wondered why Hermione spends such little time with her family, as well. It has been touched on in other threads. But, you make a good point that she may be in danger, merely by her association to Harry, or her vast knowledge. Let's not forget her reputation for being an "insufferable know-it-all".



Finn BV - Jun 9, 2005 6:31 am (#116 of 296)

Hmm… essie, I am guessing you an R/H 'shipper? I'm not sure if they're necessarily in more danger, but it certainly is odd that they're always in the important places with Harry. Especially Hermione, as she's never with her family. Seriously, what parents would agree to having their child give up the skiing vacation in France for wizarding stuff? Unless Hermione's a pretty good convincer, (*cough cough* But DUMBLEDORE is a pretty good convincer *cough cough*) something must be going on.

I'd post more but I have to run.



Steve Newton - Jun 9, 2005 6:48 am (#117 of 296)

Well, maybe her parents can't stand being around an insufferable know-it-all for extended periods of time.



essie125 - Jun 9, 2005 7:26 am (#118 of 296)

I was thinking more along the lines of hermione being a muggleborn and thus not safe at home. FBV807 I am a Ron/Hermione 'shipper, but that was not why I made this threat. I just think Hermione is in danger and I have the strange feeling that Dumbledore knows more then he lets on. (Like that isn't obvious.) But JKT always said that we would have all the answers after the seventh book. But somehow I think there will still be people with questions HIHI. Steve Newton I gather you are nota big Hermione fan? Well everyone has their own taste. I like her, but then again I also like McGonacall, Snape and Petunia so who am I to judge people on who they like.



Steve Newton - Jun 9, 2005 7:30 am (#119 of 296)

I am a fan of Hermione. But she is a know-it-all. Some people can't put up with that.



essie125 - Jun 9, 2005 7:48 am (#120 of 296)

that's right she can be annoying especially if your a 11-15 year old boy. Not meaning you, but Harry and Ron. It's like having your mother at school with you. But how big do you think the chance is that |Hermione already knows about the prophacy when harry tells her. Seeing as she is an insufferable know it all.



applepie - Jun 9, 2005 8:41 am (#121 of 296)

I like Hermione as well. She reminds me very much of my niece. I can just picture her growing up to be just as much of an "insufferable know-it-all" as Hermione. She is spending more and more time away from home as the books progress. It can be one of two things: danger, or love.



Weeny Owl - Jun 9, 2005 8:55 am (#122 of 296)

It doesn't have to be danger or love, really.

Hermione is part of a world her parents will never experience, and as time progresses, her focus is learning as much about magic as she can. That takes time, and while she may love her parents very much and they love her very much, their lives are going in different directions.

I do think Hermione and Ron are in quite a bit of danger, as are all who were in the Department of Mysteries.

JKR said something about how the trio are better together than apart. They each have something the others need, and together they are a cohesive team.

Harry may have to defeat Voldemort by himself, but anything leading up to that final moment will need to be much more than Harry alone.



applepie - Jun 9, 2005 10:53 am (#123 of 296)

Weeny, I should have added "in my opinion" to that statement.



Ms Amanda - Jun 9, 2005 2:38 pm (#124 of 296)

Hmmm, right now, this sounds a bit like it should be on the Hermione thread. However, if we work at gathering canon evidence that Hermione and Ron are in danger, then this could probably stay a thread, and I'd like that.

For example, JKR has mentioned more than once that she's surprised that more fans aren't worried about Hermione's safety, hasn't she? I'm sorry I'm not a quote queen, but if someone could drop by QuickQuotes and check, I'd love to pour over JKR's words one more time.

Also, are there any times JKR foreshadows danger for the two? For a canon example, look at how many times we've seen Sirius connected to death. We just missed it the first time around. For a non-canon example relating to Hermione, in the movie PoA, Draco says something about getting that jumped-up little mudblood.

Sorry I can't jump in with an on-topic, in-canon example, but I just can't think of one. The clues about Hermione hanging out at 12GP are great. I'm sure that there must be some connections that would suit perfectly. Anyone out there, can you think of something for Ron?



Amilia Smith - Jun 9, 2005 3:36 pm (#125 of 296)

Well, you asked for it, Ms. Amanda. :-)

Things from the books that seem to point to Ron dying. (note: I did not come up with any of these myself. Also, I can only remember 2, and I know there were more.)

Ron's wand contains a unicorn hair. Firenze tells Harry that the innocent always die. (SS, when they are out looking for unicorn blood. I haven't got my books with me, so I can't quote from them accurately.) Cedric's wand also contained a unicorn hair. Voldemort's wand contained a phoenix feather, and he died and was reborn.

Ron has a tendency to get things right when he jokes. Watch for it, it's very funny if you are looking for it. After his Divination OWL, Ron says that he no longer cares if his tea leaves spell out, "Die, Ron, die."

As for Hermione, Prefect Marcus has an excellent and well thought out theory for her. I won't try to add to it.

Now for the quotes. There are probably more out there, but this is what I found just now. And I found more than enough to make a monster sized post, anyway.

From a School Library Journal article, circa 1999 (PoA).

What are they [children] most curious about?

They are very keen to know whom I'm going to kill. Very, very, very keen. That fascinates me. I think I understand why. They are all really worried about Ron. They've seen so many' films where the main character's best friend died [that] I think they have become incredibly wise and know the storyteller's tricks, basically. They know that if Ron died, Harry' would have such a grudge, that it would make it very personal.

Are you planning to kill off Ron?

I can't let on too much.

End quote.

I am now officially worried about Ron.

From a CBCNewsWorld: Hot Type article, circa 2000 (GoF). It's a long quote, but very good, and I didn't want to cut anything out.

E: You know, characters take on their own lives. They have their own stories. Writers often say, 'I loved that character and the most tragic part of my year last year was having to kill them off.'

JK: Well that's coming.

E: Do you know already who is going to die in the next books?

JK: I know all of them who are going to die, yeah.

E: And some characters we might love and you might love?

JK: I'm definitely killing people I love, yeah. (Waves to fans outside) It's horrible, isn't it? (Laughs) It is actually. I cried during the writing of that one [Book Four] for the first time ever. I cried doing the actual writing of it. It really upset me.

E: It opens with a murder and then there's one at the end, which I won't say who it is. And you cried then?

JK: Yeah.

E: But in the future there's even more…

JK: (Laughs deeply) There's worse coming.

E: Is there? There's even worse coming, isn't there?

JK: I don't know why I'm laughing. It's mild hysteria. (Looks at camera) I've got all these children peering in at me [from outside the train]. If they knew I was talking about slaughtering their favourite characters. (Waves vigorously to fans) Hallo!

E: People love Ron, for example. Kids think you're going to knock off Ron because he's the best friend.

JK: Kids do, exactly, because they're sharp and they've seen so many films where the hero's best friend gets it. So they think I'm going to make it personal by killing Ron. But maybe that's a double bluff… (Laughs)

E: Now that you know they expect it, do you give it to them?

JK: No, I decided…It's not that I sat down with a list and decided to write, 'You're going, you're going, you're going.' There are reasons for the deaths in each case, in terms of the story. So that's why I'm doing it.

End quote.

From a Time Magazine article, circa 2000 (GoF).

It's great to hear feedback from the kids. Mostly they are really worried about Ron. As if I'm going to kill Harry's best friend. What I find interesting is only once has anyone said to me, "Don't kill Hermione," and that was after a reading when I said no one's ever worried about her. Another kid said, "Yeah, well, she's bound to get through O.K." They see her as someone who is not vulnerable, but I see her as someone who does have quite a lot of vulnerability in her personality.

End quote.

I apologized for the length, and hope you found these quotes as interesting as I did.

Mills.



applepie - Jun 9, 2005 5:38 pm (#126 of 296)

Don't apologize, Mills. It was a wonderful post. Now, I am DEFINITELY afraid for Hermione!



essie125 - Jun 10, 2005 1:50 am (#127 of 296)
Edited Jun 10, 2005 2:54 am

Well I'm more afraid for Ron.

Maybe Hermione is something like Harry's secret weapon against LV. She's a very powerful and smart muggleborn witch. I think LV should watch out for her. Wouldn't it be great if LV was killed, not through magic, but through a muggle weapon. Not that I think there are Muggle weapons who are equipped for such a task.

But how about this prophecy. Do you think Hermione and Ron already know what it is. I'm so fascinated by the prophecies. They are such tricky things. I just wish we would find out if there are even more prophecies about LV and what they contain. There bound to be. I mean those two predictions can't just be it right. And the prophecies always come through no matter how hard you try to prevent them, sometimes even by trying to prevent them from coming out they come out, like Oedipus his dad. If he would have kept him Oedipus would have known who his parents were and would never have killed his father in order to marry his mother.

And what about Dumbledore. Every time something major happens to harry, at the end of the book Dumbledore always talks to Harry and he doesn't really mention what Dumbledore tells him to Ron or Hermione. Do you think the same thing goes for Ron and Hermione? Do you think that after they experienced all those thing Dumbledore took them aside to explain certain thing to them? Maybe he did, and they, like Harry just never mentioned it. We only see what Harry encounters, thinks, and does apart from the few instances where we find ourselves in the past or in a dream. I think that Dumbledore would not just talk to Harry on his own after the things the trio went through.



Solitaire - Jun 10, 2005 5:35 am (#128 of 296)
Edited Jun 10, 2005 6:36 am

how about this prophecy. Do you think Hermione and Ron already know what it is

Didn't Jo say in an interview that Harry would share the prophecy with his dearest friends (I immediately thought of Ron and Hermione) after he has had time for it to "sink in"?

I cannot believe Dumbledore would talk about the prophecy to any of Harry's friends without telling Harry beforehand that he was going to do it. After withholding that information from Harry for so long, it would be a real violation of his confidence to do so, IMO. Remember how Harry felt the previous summer when Ron and Hermione knew more about what was going on with him than he did? I think Dumbledore may have learned his lesson about such things. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



dobbyiscool - Jun 10, 2005 7:28 am (#129 of 296)

Prophecies are paradoxial. In Macbeth, there's the question as to how Macbeth would have ever become King had the prophecy been made, but not to his face. As for the HP prophecy, would LV have marked Harry at all if his source hadn't overheard part of the prophecy, or hadn't told LV about it?

Anyway, I'll bet Harry doesn't tell Ron & Hermione everything about the prophecy. At least not right away. He loves them too much, and wouldn't want to say "Oh, by the way, if I don't kill LV, he's going to have to kill me eventually..." because it would worry them so much. He also doesn't want to bring them into danger. If the know, they'll want to help him, and every time that happens, they wind up hurt in some way.



Netherlandic - Jun 10, 2005 8:29 am (#130 of 296)

About Ron's wand being (partly) of a unicorn hair and that being a clue to his upcoming death: I don't believe in it. After Rons first wand was broken/out of action, he got a new wand and this time it was a wand that didn't have a unicorn hair inside. (Oef! Glad Ron is save...).



Tomoé - Jun 10, 2005 11:07 am (#131 of 296)
Edited Jun 10, 2005 12:18 pm

But it has, "Look at this [...] brand-new wand. Fourteen inches, willow, containing one unicorn tail-hair" (PoA ch4)

Edit: Thanks for the CBCNewsWorld: Hot Type's quote, Amilia Smith, I have been looking for it for months!

On the matter of the prophecy, I'm with Solitaire, I don't see Dumbledore telling Ron and Hermione about it before telling Harry. I do believe Hermione will put two and two together and understand the prophecy the DE were after was about Harry and Voldemort and triggered the events of the Hollowe'en's night which made Harry orphan (like we did ourselves), put I doubt she'll find out either Harry and Voldemort will die at the hand of the other by herself.



GryffEndora - Jun 10, 2005 11:49 am (#132 of 296)
Edited Jun 10, 2005 12:52 pm

I just want to respond to a few things.

Can you think of any time when Hermione was not right?

Yes I can. Hermione is not right about how to liberate the house elves. Hermione was not right about how she used the Centaurs to fix their Umbrage problem. Hermione is never right when she gets a brilliant idea and runs off the the library without telling anyone what the idea is. She was not right to wait 5 years to finally say LVs name. She is never right when she harps and badgers Harry about something she doesn't want him to do, this makes him want to do it even more. Hermione is not right in the way she communicates with Harry. She speaks to him like a parent would a child not as equals. This makes Hermione someone who Harry will avoid telling thing to that he thinks she wont approve of. Ron on the other hand has an equal/confidant role in his manner of communicating with Harry and therefore Harry is much more willing to confide in Ron.

As to the prophesy. I don't necessarily think there are other prophesies out there about LV because I think Cassandra was the last known seer. I do think Sybill will make another prophesy about Harry and LV yet though. I also agree with those who say DD would not tell Ron & Hermione about the prophesy behind Harry's back. I think he did learn a lesson in OotP. I also think DD and Harry have a very special relationship that DD tries to hide. I think DD favors Harry over other students and keeps his distance often to protect himself form letting on how much he favors Harry. I think all of the private talks DD has with Harry are unique things. Students are not even told where DD's office is. I don't think private meetings with the headmaster are common things and I think Harry is special in getting them.

I also agree that Hermione is growing up and moving closer to a world without her parents. Unfortunately they will live in separate worlds and Hermione's devotion to helping Harry is strong, strong enough that she is willing to sacrifice time with her family in order to help protect him.

Are Ron & Hermione in danger? Yes! They are living very close to the eye of the storm. If Harry is in danger Ron and Hermione have shown us many times that they are willing to stand between him and death. The clearest example of this in my mind is in the Shrieking Shack when Ron says that Sirius will have to kill Ron and Hermione if he wants to kill Harry. Does this mean I think they will die? Not necessarily, but they are definately in danger and I will worry about them until the end (where they hopefully marry, have lots of fat babies, grow old together and die happy).

JM2K

*edit spelling and punctuation



essie125 - Jun 13, 2005 5:13 am (#133 of 296)

Well I did not necissarily suggest that Dumbledore told Ron and Hermione about the prophecy, but I think that Hermione would go and find out what it is, because she suffered so much for it. Don't you think that DD is watching what Ron and Hermione do. Just like Harry I think Dumbledore has got his eye on those two as well. Also I just can't belive that for instance after Hermione has been petrified that DD would not speak a word of comfort to her after her ordeal. Not about Harry, but about LV. Just like Ron. They also need to know why certain things have happened to them. Harry never mentions his conversations with DD to the duo, so why should they. I think that is also one of the reasons why Hermione was at the headquarters.



Solitaire - Jun 13, 2005 6:29 am (#134 of 296)
Edited Jun 13, 2005 7:30 am

Essie, while I think Hermione is pretty resourceful, I do not believe she would be so presumptuous as to ask Dumbledore the content of the prophecy. And since we know that the official record of the prophecy has been destroyed, who else would know but Harry and Dumbledore?

I must agree with GryffEndora that Dumbledore feels differently about Harry than he does about the other kids, despite the fact that he tries not to "pet" and favor him. I believe he truly loves Harry and feels about him as one might feel about the favorite grandchild--and yes, I believe grandparents DO have favorites, even though most try not to show it.

I am sure that many of these feelings stem from his knowledge of--and sorrow over--the years of horrible treatment Harry has received at the hands of the Dursleys. It must have gone sorely against the grain to feel compelled to leave Harry to the "tender mercies" of the people who treated Lily so hatefully. But here, again, he put Harry's ultimate well-being first.

We all know that it is often difficult to be completely objective where those we love are concerned. I believe that this has been Dumbledore's chief fault since Harry joined the magical world. Wanting to spare Harry unnecessary pain, worry, and fear as long as possible, Dumbledore has inadvertently created circumstances which did just that. I think--I HOPE--he learned his lesson in OotP, and it cost him dearly. It cost him a great deal of Harry's love and trust. I think that one of the main threads of HBP may be the rebuilding of that love and trust.

How does this connect to the topic of this thread? Hm ... We do know that Dumbledore apparently talked to Ron and Hermione when they were prepping 12GP for Harry's arrival; he seems to have told them what they could and could not tell Harry in letters. I believe Hermione, at least, understands why Dumbledore does appear to be closer to Harry than to other kids. She encourages him to seek Dumbledore's advice on many occasions. As "one of the guys," Ron probably understands Harry's reluctance to go running to Dumbledore every time his scar hurts. In the end, though, I do not believe that either Ron or Hermione begrudge Harry's special relationship with Dumbledore.

Solitaire

Edit: I suppose Sibyll could know the contents of the prophecy, but it is equally likely that she is unaware of ever having made it.



essie125 - Jun 13, 2005 7:45 am (#135 of 296)
Edited Jun 13, 2005 8:46 am

I never ment that Hermione would go and ask Dumbledore. What I meant was that she may go and look for a way to find out what it was. Seeing it was so important for LV, and therefore potentially dangerous for Harry. I think it would be uncharacteristic of Hermione to not turn to books on this subject. Harry might eventually not tell Ron and Hermione the complete context of the prophecy, because he wants to keep them out of trouble. I think that that is one of the main lessons he has learned from Sirius' death. And your right about Hermione not always being right. But while her way of telling and doing things is not right, the things she says are. Also who says that SPEW may not get a bigger role to play. House-elves are magical creatures and although she may not convince them to ask for money in exchange for their services, she may in the end get them to join the Order of the Phoenix in the battle against LV. There must be a major reason why JKR included SPEW so late in the series. And seeing as there are only 2 more books to go. my guess is that the house-elves will start playing a major role in the battle against LV. The Ministry might change their laws concerning house-elves due to SPEW. Maybe they will be allowed to use magic when they or their families are in danger.



Ydnam96 - Jun 13, 2005 7:51 am (#136 of 296)

I agree on several of your points Essie. I think Hermione always means well, but she is not one to let things go. She will keep digging till she figures out what it is she is searching for. I would imagine it is only a matter of time until Hermione, Ron, Neville, Ginny, and possibly Luna start asking questions about what was so important about that prophecy.
I will be very interested to see who Harry decides to tell. I half wonder if he tells Luna first?? Just a thought...



GryffEndora - Jun 13, 2005 8:40 am (#137 of 296)

essie, I never said SPEW was a bad idea, I simply said that the methods Hermione uses in the name of SPEW are wrong. To trick someone into "freedom" or what they see as "banishment" from their family, friends and community is wrong. To try to liberate a group of people with out first talking to them and seeing if they feel persecuted or enslaved, to not ask them if there are things they want that they are not allowed to have, to not open up a dialogue with those people is simply another form of persecution. Hermione believes they should be free no matter what, even if they don't want it. She is forcing them to behave how she wants them to. I think SPEW could be a wonderful organization if Hermione would ask the House elves what they wanted instead of telling them what they should want.

Hermione has no idea that anyone knows the details of the prophesy. The record broke. Harry is the only person we know of that knows DD already heard the prophesy. There is no way for Hermione to find out about the prophesy until Harry of DD decide to tell her. I think DD will stay out of it and let Harry tell who he wants when he is ready. Whether members of the Order know the Prophesy is unknown. If there is a spy or traitor in the Order, such information being known by Order members would give LV exactly what he needs. I hope DD learned something from Wormtail's betrayal and is keeping certain information strictly confidential.



essie125 - Jun 13, 2005 8:53 am (#138 of 296)
Edited Jun 13, 2005 9:53 am

Your right about Hermione being controlling when it comes to the house-elves. I just think that whoever made the record of the prophecy, may have kept a logg on what it consists of in case it may be destroid, but then again the deatheaters would have been looking for that as well. Well I think we will soon find out more on this subject. By the way do you know when Ron and Hermione learned about the prophecy about LV returning? is that in the fourth or the fifth book? I know that when Ron and Harry have finished doing their OWLS they say that they want to drop divination. And Hermione then tells them that it is such a shame, because they have just found out that real prophecies exist. Does he actually ever tell them about that prophecy?



frogface - Jun 13, 2005 9:23 am (#139 of 296)

But the thing that was destroyed WAS the recording wasn't it? I think GryffEndora is right, Hermione could probably only find out what the prophecy states if either Harry or DD decide to tell her. I think some members of the order know about the prophecy, but deffinatly not alot of them. I'm sure they have all been told or realize that Harry is deffinatly important to their struggle in some way though.



dobbyiscool - Jun 13, 2005 1:02 pm (#140 of 296)

Either that, or if she accidently sees it in DD pensive.



Solitaire - Jun 13, 2005 3:08 pm (#141 of 296)
Edited Jun 13, 2005 4:10 pm

Frogface, I think it is possible that Sirius knew ... and possibly Remus knew. As they were close friends of the Potters, I do not find that impossible. Then again ... it is possible that Dumbledore may have told the Potters not to disclose the contents of the prophecy to anyone, since there seemed to be some awareness among Order members that there was a spy among them. Remember we learned in PoA that Sirius had thought it was Remus ... and the other way around.

It is possible, though, that key Order members were told the contents of the prophecy this time around. I would be willing to bet that Arthur, Sirius, Remus, Kingsley, and possibly Snape knew ... But I'm not sure what this has to do with this thread.

Essie, I believe Jo has said that Harry will confide the prophecy to his dearest friends as soon as it sinks into him. I take that to mean that he has NOT done so by the end of OotP.

Dobbyiscool, I really can't picture Hermione sticking her nose into Dumbledore's Pensieve the way Harry did. First, she would have to be in his office alone, with the Pensieve out and unattended. Also, the memory of the prophecy would have to be in the Pensieve at that time ... and it is possible that Dumbledore put it back into his brain. Truthfully, I do not see Hermione being as willing as Harry to violate anyone's Pensieve. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

edited for clarity



dobbyiscool - Jun 14, 2005 7:52 am (#142 of 296)

I agree. I was just throwing out another option.



Solitaire - Jun 14, 2005 9:55 am (#143 of 296)
Edited Jun 14, 2005 10:55 am

Dobbyiscool ... I suppose what I mean about Hermione is that (I believe) she is less likely than Harry to break rules--not altogether unlikely. Perhaps this is because she is more savvy about how to get what she wants within the rules ... for the most part. She will "bend the rules," however, if it is required. How can we forget her lying in order to get the book with the polyjuice potion ... or stealing the boomslang skin for that potion ... or managing to retrieve Harry's invisibility cloak from inside the witch's hump when he left it there after going into Hogsmeade "illegally" ... I could go on.

I can't help thinking, however, that there may be some boundaries she would not cross. Going behind Harry's back to learn the contents of the prophecy that concerns him just strikes me as something she would consider way out of bounds--unless, of course, his life was hanging in the balance. JM2K ...

Solitaire



Aqualu Nifey - Jun 14, 2005 5:51 pm (#144 of 296)

I agree, Hermione would respect Harry's privacy and wouldn't ask him about the prophecy. She'll probably tell Ron not to mention it. They'll wait until Harry's ready to talk about it.

As for Ron and Hermione being in danger... I don't think either will die in Book VI, but maybe they'll die early on in VII. Since the last Chapter of V is indeed called "The Second War Begins," I think Book VI will be in a warlike situation where there are numerous casualties, but somehow or another, HRH make it through again, but then I think either Hermione or Ron or both die very early on in VII. Reason being that he needs them in preparation for his ultimate fight with Voldemort. They will probably go through one more adventure together before the final showdown. I have a feeling that it would probably be Ron who has to go, though. Not really sure why. It might just be that I watch too many movies.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 15, 2005 4:38 pm (#145 of 296)

Ron may have the emotional range of a teaspoon but he protects Harry from Hermione wanting to talk about Sirius. I think Dumbledore will let Harry tell them about the prophecy in his own time. He will not violate Harry's trust by telling them. I do think Dumbledore does talk to Hermione to help Harry. He sent Hermione to #12 after Arthur was attacked. It was Hermione that got Harry talking again. LPO



Choices - Jun 15, 2005 4:42 pm (#146 of 296)

I agree LPO - I think Dumbledore knows how much Harry needs his friends and how much they help and support him through his "trials". I think Dumbledore arranges for Ron and Hermione to be there whenever and wherever Harry needs them.



MickeyCee3948 - Jun 15, 2005 6:50 pm (#147 of 296)

I seriously doubt if DD has told anyone else other than Harry about the prophecy. The members of the Order have so much respect for DD that they would never question him. Sometimes I even wonder if James and Lily knew the entire prophecy. DD could have kept it to himself and told them only that they needed to take Harry and go into hiding. Could not have taken the chance that anyone else could have fallen under Voldemort's control and told him about the entire prophecy.

I believe that Harry will tell the DM6 about the prophecy when the time is right. Things will happen that will require that he tell them something. They will have to know what is going on as I feel certain Harry will try and exclude them from things to keep them out of danger. Does that make any sense?

Mickey



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 15, 2005 7:31 pm (#148 of 296)

I agree Mickey. It is a matter of great importance that few people as possible know the exact wording of the prophecy. Though I think Harry will confide in Ron and Hermione about it. Right now he is protecting himself from facing their reactions. He will have to protect them as things heat up. LPO



Tomoé - Jun 15, 2005 7:48 pm (#149 of 296)

I'm sure Dumbledore gave the Potters and the Longbottoms the gist of the two first lines, the ones Voldemort knew: "someone able to vaquish Voldemort was born at the end of July to a couple that thice defied him", though he could have said "your babies could be the one able to vanquish Voldemort" I also believe he told the Order members the gist of the first line, "Harry have the power to vanquish Voldemort". For the last two lines, I believe only Dumbledore and Harry know them.

For Hermione and Ron, I believe Hermione will put two and two together and find out the prophecy was about Harry being able to vanquish Voldemort (we were able to and we are not as clever as she is). She won't get the part saying the "either must die at the hand of the other", she'll think the prophecy state Harry will win. When she'll tell Harry about her take of the prophecy, Harry will correct her and tell her (and the other members of the sixtet) the real contents of the prophecy.



Solitaire - Jun 15, 2005 9:21 pm (#150 of 296)

Mickey and LPO are correct ... knowledge of that prophecy is dangerous. Since many of us seem to feel Sibyll would be toast at the hand of Voldemort, would he be any less vicious with Harry's friends who might know the prophecy? No. Funny ... I hadn't considered that aspect of things. But it might lead Harry to think long and hard before revealing its contents to those he loves.

Solitaire
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Miriam Huber - Jun 15, 2005 10:26 pm (#151 of 296)

You are right, solitaire. Problem is, not knowing the prophecy´s content might not protect them. Voldemort might THINK they knew it and weren´t just telling him... Look at the poor Longbottoms, they didn´t know where Voldemort was, either. Very disturbing line of thoughts...



essie125 - Jun 16, 2005 4:00 am (#152 of 296)

I doubt Hermione will wait for Harry to tell her the contents of the Prophecy, because she doesn't actually know that Dumbledore told Harry what it contains. For all she knows it is smashed to pieces and no one, except the unspeakables know what it is about. which just enforces what I was saying earlier. It would be uncharacteristic of Hermione not to try and find out what it contained. By the way, why would she go to Dumbledore with this question. She does not know that Dumbledore was the one who heard the prophecy.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 16, 2005 4:49 am (#153 of 296)
Edited Jun 16, 2005 5:50 am

I think Hermione --or any of the other kids who went to the DoM-- can figure out that Sybil Trelawny told the prophecy to Dumbledore. Both had their initials were on the prophecy, so it's just a matter of putting two and two together.



essie125 - Jun 16, 2005 7:16 am (#154 of 296)

But how big is the chance that they actually know al of Dumbledore's names. Harry did not realize that it was Dunmbledore and Trelawny. JKR said that Harry will spend a lot of time wondering whether and/ or how Harry should tell Neville about the prophecy.



Choices - Jun 16, 2005 8:53 am (#155 of 296)

Ron told Harry that his (Harry's) name was on it - maybe Ron was paying too much attention to Harry's name to really notice the other names - actually they were just initials, so maybe Ron didn't figure out whose initials they were.



Solitaire - Jun 16, 2005 10:08 am (#156 of 296)
Edited Jun 16, 2005 11:14 am

I thought the prophecy was originally labeled with Voldemort's name and a ?, and then the question mark was changed to Harry Potter after Voldemort's attack on Harry. Aren't the prophecies labeled with the names of those whom they concern rather than those who give and receive them?

But back to Hermione and the prophecy ... I do not believe she is going to search out the prophecy for a couple of reasons. First, I think she respects Harry far too much to pry into what is obviously his private business. Doing so would violate their friendship, and I think she realizes that. Second, I do not feel she will be kept waiting until months after they all return to Hogwarts. Important information is frequently communicated on the Hogwarts Express, and that may well be where this big communication takes place. JM2K, but I have higher hopes for Hermione's level of respect for Harry.

Solitaire



Steve Newton - Jun 16, 2005 10:12 am (#157 of 296)

My memory says that the prophecy label ends (?)HP. My meory has been wrong before.



frogface - Jun 16, 2005 12:23 pm (#158 of 296)

It did have Voldemort and a question mark with harry's name later inscribed, but it also had the intials of trelawny and dumbledore. I don't think that Hermoine will find out before Harry tells her. Her resources are basicly the Hogwarts Libary, how would she get the content of the prophecy from there? I'm sure Hermoine will love to know what the prophecy stated, but I think shes probably aware it would be impossible to find out, unless she realises that the intials on the record refer to DD and Trewlawney and got the info out of them (assuming trewlawney even knows, and assuming DD would consent to tell her - I don't think he would in this case)

In short I think Ron and Hermoine will only know when Harry decides to tell them.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 16, 2005 1:10 pm (#159 of 296)

I don't think DD will tell Hermione or anyone. He has given the knowledge to Harry. It is Harry's decision to tell them. DD made Harry promise not to let Neville know he knew about Neville's parents. I think after a few weeks at the Dursleys' Harry will want to talk about it to Ron and Hermione. Harry has been able to spend part of the last two summers with Ron and Hermione. Hopefully they will get some time to talk before school starts. LPO



Ginerva Potter - Jun 17, 2005 8:39 pm (#160 of 296)

I don't think that anyone will figure out who's initials were on the prophecy. Harry didn't even know that the prophecy was heard by Dumbledore and I think that Harry has heard Dumbledore's full name at the trials in the Pensieve. I think that everyone that was at the MM will think that the prophecy is lost. JM2K...

Ginny



Solitaire - Jun 17, 2005 8:42 pm (#161 of 296)

I think you are probably correct, Ginny.



Paulus Maximus - Jun 20, 2005 3:43 pm (#162 of 296)
Edited Jun 20, 2005 4:48 pm

I think that there must be a book somewhere that mentions Dumbledore's full name...

Hermione might have figured out what A.P.W.B.D stands for. I, for one, am not putting anything past her...

On the other hand, it is probably irrelevant to the subject of internal relationships between Harry, Ron, and Hermione...



Aqualu Nifey - Jun 21, 2005 4:04 pm (#163 of 296)

Come now, Paulus. Do you really think that Hermione would really betray the trust of one of her best friends. Harry got tricked into a very dangerous position because of this Prophecy, and I'm sure she's curious about it, but I don't think she would go searching for its contents or even Dumbledore's initials. She probably assumes that it's some weapon of the enemy that decent people shouldn't tamper with. If she were really that curious about the Prophecy, she would gently ask Harry, and if he refused to tell her anything, she'd understand that it is a sensitive subject and back off.



Paulus Maximus - Jun 21, 2005 6:17 pm (#164 of 296)
Edited Jun 21, 2005 7:18 pm

She might have already known what A.P.W.B.D stood for after five years at Hogwarts...

On the other hand, if Hermione finds out that the prophecy was made from Trelawney to Dumbledore, I doubt that she'll find out anything else on her own.

I don't even think that she'll know that Dumbledore told Harry about it. Harry will probably tell it to her on his own terms.

I said before that I wouldn't put anything past Hermione, and that statement was in error... I would put intentionally hurting Harry past her, but little else...



Solitaire - Jun 21, 2005 7:04 pm (#165 of 296)

Jo has already told us that Harry will tell those closest to him about the prophecy once it sinks into him.

Solitaire



Tomoé - Jun 22, 2005 7:16 pm (#166 of 296)
Edited Jun 22, 2005 8:16 pm

What does Hermione know of the prophecy? Let's re-read Harry/Lucius's conversation.

'So he wanted me to come and get it, did he? Why?'
'Why?' Malfoy sounded incredulously delighted. 'Because the only people who are permitted to retrieve a prophecy from the Department of Mysteries, Potter, are those about whom it was made, as the Dark Lord discovered when he attempted to use others to steal it for him.'
'And why did he want to steal a prophecy about me?'
'About both of you, Potter, about both of you ... haven't you ever wondered why the Dark Lord tried to kill you as a baby?' (UK OoP ch.35 p.693)

Now if Hermione can't put two and two together on this one, and guess the approximated gist of the prophecy (Harry have the power to vanquish Voldemort), she deserves to lose the title of the must brilliant witch of her age (or whatever is the exact wording). ^_~

Oh and by the way, if Hermione have read Dumbledore was sorted in Gryffindor at 11, the odds she found his full name are pretty high.



Choices - Jun 23, 2005 7:49 am (#167 of 296)

Tomoe' - "....if Hermione have read Dumbledore was sorted in Gryffindor at 11"

Where did you find that bit of information? Can you tell me where to look so I can read it?



Aqualu Nifey - Jun 23, 2005 3:47 pm (#168 of 296)

Choices, it's in Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone, Chapter 6. Hermione's just come into Harry and Ron's train compartment and she asks them what they think they'll be in and goes off about Gryffindor and Ravenclaw.



Jennifer Anderson - Jun 25, 2005 4:05 pm (#169 of 296)

I think that it is unlikly that even Hermione would figure what A.P.W.B.D stands for, unless she paid it close attention and thought allot about it. But in any case I don't think it would matter even if she did. Because I don't she'd ask Dumbledore about it because I doubt she'd feel it her place to ask that and I think she and Ron would be able to figure it out just running on the infomation they have. Here why I think its easy to put two two together in their postion:

1. they know that Voldemort tried to kill Harry as a baby and is still trying to kill him.

2. they now know that from the battle at DoM that the reason that Voldemort tried kill Harry is contained in the Prophecy.

If they put these two fact together they'll be able to figure it out no problem.



Solitaire - Jun 25, 2005 4:31 pm (#170 of 296)
Edited Jun 25, 2005 5:33 pm

I would have to disagree with your first statement. I suspect Hermione is probably one of the few students in the school who probably knows what all of Dumbledore's initials stand for!

Looking at the passage where they first see the sphere, however, I have to wonder ... did she see exactly what was written on it? Ron saw Harry's name ... but did the others get close enough to the sphere to see the actual wording on its label? A lot will depend on that.

Once the DEs showed themselves, the kids had other things than the contents of that label on their minds. And remember that Ron was not in the best shape afterwards, so who is to say he even remembers all of the initials written on the label? Just a thought ...

Solitaire



Jennifer Anderson - Jun 25, 2005 7:16 pm (#171 of 296)
Edited Jun 25, 2005 8:17 pm

Even if she does know Dumbledore full name how would Hermione or anyone else for that matter be able to know for certain its not a coincidence (we know it's not). But how would she or anyone else be able to? Someone who knows would have tell her that Dumbledore was there in order for her to know that.



Solitaire - Jun 25, 2005 8:26 pm (#172 of 296)
Edited Jun 25, 2005 9:29 pm

Someone who knows would have tell her that Dumbledore was there in order for her to know that

I'm not sure I understand where you mean by "there" and what you mean by "that." Hermione certainly knows that Dumbledore was at the DoM, if that is the information to which you are referring. If by there you are referring to the label on the sphere--which contained Sibyll's and Dumbledore's initials--that is precisely what I said in my previous post. She may not actually know those initials were there.

Whatever the case, I really do not see Hermione seeking out this information anyway. I do not believe she would go so far as to invade Harry's personal life this way. Besides, Jo has already said that Harry will tell his dearest friends about the prophecy anyway, just as soon as it sinks to him. I take this to mean sooner rather than later ... possibly when they get together over the summer, or just before returning to Hogwarts.

Solitaire



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 26, 2005 1:39 pm (#173 of 296)

I agree Solitaire, I think Harry will tell them about it before they have to figure it out. I am sure he will be dreading how they take the news. Especially since he already feels like a marked man. One thing he can be sure of, they will stick by him. They have seen what Voldemort and his followers are capable of and they remain Harry's staunchest friends. By choosing to remain his friends they are putting themselves at great risk. LPO



Vulture - Jun 30, 2005 7:58 am (#174 of 296)

As regards Dumbledore's full name, we, the readers, only hear about it because he says it all at Harry's trial in the Ministry. He does so to poke fun at the pompous way Cornelius Fudge is reeling off everyone's full name. I doubt if Dumbledore draws attention to his full name most of the time.



Tomoé - Jun 30, 2005 1:21 pm (#175 of 296)
Edited Jun 30, 2005 2:22 pm

Dumbledore wouldn't but the numerous books Hermione read about the downfall of Voldemort and the great wizards of the century are likely to name them all.



Aqualu Nifey - Jul 1, 2005 6:40 pm (#176 of 296)

I would think that any book Hermione's read would just say Albus Dumbledore. Unless she was reading a biography, I doubt they would use Dumbledore's full name.



Ms Amanda - Jul 2, 2005 5:21 am (#177 of 296)

Unless she was reading up on court cases, Aqualu Nifey. DD used his full name in court, that's where we heard it.

And Hermione has read a lot of court cases. One specific incident of her reading up on law was for Buckbeak. Do you think maybe there was a court case with Hagrid before? DD would have testified, no doubt.



Solitaire - Jul 2, 2005 6:35 am (#178 of 296)

You know, I bet Hermione would have looked up any previous legal proceedings involving Hagrid. She would have known that his "history and background" might go against him, so she'd want to be prepared on that front. Good idea!

Solitaire



Tomoé - Jul 11, 2005 9:31 am (#179 of 296)

While looking for Nicolas Flamel, HRH read Great Wizards of the Twentieh Century and Notable Magical Name of Our Time, sound like the kind of book that would put their full names (don't argue DD was born in the 19th century, because Roosevelt, de Gaulle, Churchill, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao Zedong all were, but you wouldn't dare to write a Great Wizards of the Twentieh Century without them).



Vulture - Jul 18, 2005 10:45 am (#180 of 296)
Edited Jul 18, 2005 11:49 am

(Hi, Folks: Sorry if this interrupts your current train of thought _ feel free to ignore if so !! I wanted to post this ages ago, but never finished it !!)

Message from "Dumbledore" at the start of thread describes Hermione as the "down-to-earth" one of the trio; well, to be specific, he says that she's the one who brings Harry "down to earth" whenever he gets angry.

I dispute the thinking behind that. True, Hermione does play a role of that sort in Book 5, but not much otherwise. And I certainly don't regard her as the "down-to-earth" one of all the three in general terms.

To measure down-to-earthness, I think we can do no better than measure by Hagrid, whom I regard as the most down-to-earth character in the books. There's a lot of symbolism in the chapter in Book 1 where he (literally) bursts into Harry's life and changes it forever. Harry is trapped in a miserable cold hut symbolising his miserable cold life. Hagrid breaks down the hut's door and liberates Harry forever with a roaring fire, sausages, and a squashy birthday cake. Wild hair and beard, huge strength and a kind nature. He's at home with nature in its wildest forms, as demonstrated by the Forest.

Hermione fails the "down-to-earth" test on the following points: _

_ Not very sociable: she has no friends until Harry and Ron in Book 1, and even that is due to outstandingly exceptional circumstances. In case you think I'm just going on Ron's opinion before the Hallowe'en troll event, bear in mind that in Book 3 we have plenty of clues as to what her Gryffindor classmates other than Harry and Ron think of her _ she's generally seen as a "know-it-all". This doesn't stop them being loyal to her when necessary, but one senses that some of that may be due to friendship with Harry and Ron. Certainly, it doesn't appear that Hermione is as close to her room-mates as Harry and Ron are to Seamus, Neville, and Dean.

_ Fussy, preachy and obsessed with rules. However, we're told in Book 1 that she relaxes a bit when she becomes friends with Harry and Ron. Not too much, however _ in Book 2, she's quite sniffy about them flying the car _ before she knows what justification they might have had.

_ Precocious. She has a tendency to put on "grown-up" airs _ a common temptation for those with better brains than those around them.

However, don't think I'm running her down. She has a good heart (our first ever sight of her _ looking for Neville's toad _ shows her being both helpful and bossy in equal measure). Her good qualities are brought out more by Harry and Ron (especially Ron) _ as you might expect in a friendship. She also shows a generous self-awareness and modesty near the end of Book 1. And though sometimes cross for herself, it is injustice to others which makes her fiercely angry _ at such moments she is magnificent, arousing the admiring surprise of us and her friends.

"Dumbledore" (forum member, not the character) makes a good case for Hermione as the down-to-earth member, and I won't repeat his words here. Main thing in favour of this opinion is that Hermione is right (and Harry wrong) about Voldemort luring Harry to the Ministry at the end of Book 5. (I myself think of her as "the clever one" rather than the "down-to-earth" one.)

But my real point is that, whether or not you want to see Hermione as down-to-earth, you can equally make a case for Harry or Ron being so. And in fact, all can be valid. That's the thing about friendships _ different group members can play different roles, but the roles can swap around. It's this changeability that brings Our Trio to life as characters.

Problems in seeing Hermione as more down-to-earth than Harry or Ron show up clearly on the issue of house-elves. Now, be clear: I am not arguing here about whether Hermione (or anyone else) is right or wrong. One can be right with out being down-to-earth, and sometimes, being down-to-earth makes a person fail to look beyond the normal or the obvious.

In the case of the house-elves, a lot of what Hermione says may be correct, but none of it is down-to-earth (and this handicaps her aims). "Idealistic" is the kindest description of how she goes on (and on and on !!) Harry is the down-to-earth one on this issue. He doesn't say much about it. He doesn't preach (like Hermione). He takes a plodding, learning approach, mostly just watching (without comment either way) as Hermione battles with the other students on this issue. He shares Ron's exasperation at Hermione's non-stop sermonising, but perhaps for different reasons: Ron, after all, is dead against her opinion, like most others from the wizarding world. This seems to be one of those issues where Harry feels like a Muggle compared to how wizards react. He normally adopts a wait-and-see approach on these occasions.

It's important to remember that Dobby, the only house-elf (so far) to win freedom in the books, owes it all to Harry _ not Hermione. In fact, Hermione's main achievement with SPEW is to terrify the daylights out of the Hogwarts elves and put them even more off freedom than they already were. The funny thing is _ Hermione is quite right (as Dumbledore later agrees) in much of what she says about house-elves, but completely useless at turning it into practical action, mainly because this involves dealing with other people. In this, she is like a lot of idealists _ we need them, but they have a great talent for driving us up the wall.

For example, Hermione sees house-elves' refusal to oppose their condition as "mental slavery", and argues for kindness towards the villainous Kreacher. Dumbledore agrees, saying to Harry that Kreacher's existence "has been as miserable as your friend Dobby's". But it is Harry, not Hermione, who deals with the mental slavery issue in practise: in Books 4 and 5, he has to stop Dobby punishing himself, even though _ being free _ Dobby has no need to do so. In Book 5, Harry orders Dobby to lie for his own safety, and orders him not to punish himself. There is absolutely no logic to this _ Dobby is free, and even when he was unfree, Harry was not his master, so had no power to give him orders. In Harry's place, Hermione would trip over (a) her own scruples about ordering house-elves, and (b) the illogicality of ordering a free one. But Harry understands how Dobby feels. Though delighted to be free, Dobby is confused by it, and is apt to fall back on the "slave" habits he knows.

This is the difference between down-to-earth and idealistic people. The down-to-earth person approaches others individually with a rough-and-ready equality, and most importantly takes others seriously. The idealist sometimes falls into the trap of ramming the best of all possible worlds down others' throats whether they want it or not. The idealist's way is not always wrong _ Gandhi and Martin Luther King are examples.

Hermione, despite many excellent qualities, is no Gandhi or King. The business of madly knitting hats for house-elves is total foolishness, and we are meant to see it as such. Also, when she covers the hats with rubbish to lure the elves to 'freedom', she shows a touch of arrogance, and the house-elves are right to feel insulted. Interestingly, we get a very "Ron" moment as a result: he indignantly intervenes to take off the rubbish _ but (despite his own opinions) leaves the hats, giving the elves the choice. This is his style _ he often stays in the background, but when an intervention is necessary _ and no-one else will do it _ he comes forward.

In fact, I tend to see the "most down-to-earth" prize among the Trio as going to Ron, who is very down-to-earth in wizard terms.



Vulture - Jul 25, 2005 1:12 pm (#181 of 296)
Edited Jul 25, 2005 2:13 pm

I wasn't able to complete my last post _ the end got truncated. I wanted to add:

... In fact, I tend to see the "most down-to-earth" label as probably going to Ron, who is very down-to-earth in the wizard world. Apart from some of the most amusing lines, we often (like those around him) don't notice him until he's gone (as he is, in relation to Harry, for a while in Book 4). That quarrel in Book 4 was a very good way of showing us how important he is.

Harry is also a close contender for "down-to-earth" on occasions. In Book 1, his head wasn't turned by all the fame. He simply feels really lucky, as if he wasn't a wizard at all, but a Muggle who has been allowed into a great adventure. And he never quite loses this.

Hermione ? _ A great and likeable character, but not very "down-to-earth" !!



Solitaire - Jul 26, 2005 8:18 am (#182 of 296)

But don't many extremely intelligent people sometimes have that trouble, Vulture? There is an old adage about people who are so wrapped up in the "trappings" of their religion that they miss the boat concerning its purpose. It goes like this: "They are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good." I think there must be an intellectual corollary to this principle, and if you've seen Diane Keaton in Baby Boom you know what I mean. At the beginning of the movie, she can produce an ad campaign that generates billion$, but she can't work a disposable diaper! LOL

In the beginning, I'd say Hermione was a bit cerebral for Ron and Harry--and, yes, she still has occasional lapses. In the past 6 years, however, she has realized that her knowledge must be combined with good, old-fashioned horse sense, if she is going to survive to take her N.E.W.T.s. She certainly has learned how to ignore the verbal abuse she receives from Snape and Malfoy--something which is taking Harry and Ron a lot longer to master.

I get the idea that, in the Muggle world, Hermione probably used her intelligence to insulate herself from a lack of friends (smart Muggle kids are usually labeled "nerds" and often teased unmercifully). She can be a bit brusque with people, although that aspect of her character has been "sanded down" a bit as she has matured. In reality, I think Hermione is a lot like Molly Weasley; it just "looks different" on her because she is so much younger.

Quite honestly, if Hermione didn't have an inner core of true goodness and integrity, I believe she has the intellect--and possibly the talent--to have become another Tom Riddle, don't you think? I suspect that the large amounts of time spent in the bosom of the Weasley family have done considerable good to "normalize" Hermione. Perhaps this is why Dumbledore, and even the Grangers, have encouraged and allowed it over the past several years.

Solitaire



Ponine - Jul 26, 2005 1:27 pm (#183 of 296)

Solitaire - you know, that makes perfect sense to me - Although I have always tucked in away under artistic freedom, it irked me that Hermione spent SO little time with her family. If, in reality, this is the first time she has found close friends and people with whom she can relate, I am willing to bet my premium membership (!) on the fact that her parents (well-educated with an only child...) would accept and appreciate every oppportunity she has of spending time with friends at the Weasleys, even at the expense of their own time with her - Solitaire - Thanks!! (Now, about the other fourteen hundered and thirtyseven things I don't understand...)

Oh, and yes, I do believe she could have the skills to become another Riddle, but as I see him as a true sociopath from the getgo, she obviously would never have the mindset. I think however, that some of the things that has been said about Dumbledore's detachment is also in some ways relevant to Hermione; her mind is indeed also her cage, as it is very isolating in many ways...JM12KAA1S (Just my 12 knuts and a sickle)



Vulture - Jul 28, 2005 3:40 am (#184 of 296)
Edited Jul 28, 2005 5:27 am

Good posts, Solitaire & Ponine. A few interesting bits I want to reply to:

But don't many extremely intelligent people sometimes have that trouble, Vulture? (Solitaire, #182)

Certainly they do _ I suffer from it myself, which is why I felt able to analyse it in detail in Hermione's case. (Not that I'm boasting of extreme intelligence !! _ but I am extremely analytical.) I must repeat, however _ all I'm saying is that she's not "down to earth", or _ putting it another way _ that she hasn't "the common touch". That does not mean that she's not a good person; in fact, she's a lot braver than I am. (Unfortunately, I recognise a lot of myself in Pettigrew/Wormtail (!!), but that's a story for a different thread ...)

She certainly has learned how to ignore the verbal abuse she receives from Snape and Malfoy--something which is taking Harry and Ron a lot longer to master. (Solitaire, #182)

I don't know about them "not mastering" it _ I think it's more about different opinions on how to react. In Books 4 & 5, Harry does go along with Hermione's "ignore them, ignore them" line, but I think that, at other times, he feels (rightly) that bullies thrive on that response. Equally, Hermione sometimes takes Harry's and Ron's line, and retaliates (in fact, erupts like a volcano) _ most notably in Book 3, when she hits Malfoy. What we notice is that she does this when she sees someone else under attack, not herself. So again, we see the Trio swapping each other's roles and methods.

I think Hermione is a lot like Molly Weasley (Solitaire, #182)

I don't really see that _ I think that Molly is a lot more down-to-earth and comfortable with people: in her case, her fussiness is deliberate, arising from and branching out from her situation as a mother of seven. We're tempted to see a link because Harry sometimes sees moments of interaction between Hermione and Ron that remind him of Mr. & Mrs. Weasley, but if there's an actual resemblance, my hunch is that it's probably much more about Ron and his father.

If Hermione didn't have an inner core of true goodness and integrity, I believe she has the intellect--and possibly the talent--to have become another Tom Riddle, don't you think? I suspect that the large amounts of time spent in the bosom of the Weasley family have done considerable good to "normalize" Hermione. (Solitaire, #182)

Certainly Hermione has the intellect and talent to be a powerful Dark wizard _ if she chose. However, that "inner core of true goodness and integrity" which you rightly pick up on make that 99.999% unlikely. But I think she had this before she ever knew the Weasleys _ I've said before that our first ever sight of her, in Book 1, is her trying to help someone vulnerable _ if in a rather bossy way. What the Weasleys have done for her is help her to develop some social skills with other people.

Although I have always tucked in away under artistic freedom, it irked me that Hermione spent SO little time with her family. (Ponine, #183)

Yes, well, I think that the problem for JKR is that we need to see lots of Hermione _ and much of the story takes place among the Weasleys. On the other hand, we don't really need to see much of her parents _ there just isn't a big star role for them. We accept Harry being with the Weasleys a lot, because of the Dursleys; if Hermione's parents were the sort she wanted to avoid, it would look too much like copycat tactics.

The one justification _ within the story, I mean, as opposed to writer's constraints _ is that Hermione's parents are both Muggles, and may feel the need to give their very bright witch-child an environment where she can be both fully a child and fully magical. In their case, they can only really give her the first, so friendship with the Weasleys must be really helpful. (Hermione briefly refers to this problem in Book 5, when she is glad to tell her parents about becoming Prefect because "prefect" is "something they can understand".)



Susurro Notities - Jul 30, 2005 7:36 pm (#185 of 296)

Hermione resembles Mrs. Weasley - NO. Lily - MAYBE. McGonagall - YES.



Solitaire - Jul 30, 2005 10:45 pm (#186 of 296)

I can't help seeing some of Molly in Hermione. You are certainly welcome to your opinions, too.



Wisey - Aug 3, 2005 11:53 pm (#187 of 296)

Hermione is the most studious of the trio, accumulating knowledge and therefore able to pass it onto the boys, who are quite lazy. However, she is learning life lessons with the boys that she couldn't learn from books and therefore there is an equilibrium between the three. Hermione agreed with Snape's opening DADA remarks about developing responses comparing them to Harry's DA remarks but couldn't quite let herself use the altered HBP's potion book because she thought that was cheating, but I think the book-worm is turning making Hermione a very valuable friend/ally to Harry and Ron.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2005 1:55 pm (#188 of 296)

How will Harry's relationship with Ginny affect his relationship with Ron? Will it have a positive or negative impact on the relationship of the trio?



Finn BV - Aug 4, 2005 4:46 pm (#189 of 296)

Well I'm hoping Ron will like him better than Michael Corner or Dean Thomas. Although it did seem to me that Harry/Ginny was slightly abrupt; like 'ships won't play as big a role in Book 7… perhaps that's why JKR went full blast in HBP…



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Aug 5, 2005 3:52 pm (#190 of 296)

I honestly don't think Ron will have a problem with H/G just as Harry won't have a problem with R/H. There have been several hints that Ron and Harry have been aware of each others feelings for H&G before they new themselves(like in OOP, Ron gave Harry a glance when Ginny mentioned Dean that I took to mean "it should be you")



Ronan - Aug 16, 2005 11:09 am (#191 of 296)

Finn BV, I agree with you, H/G in HBP was *completely* abrupt. Funnily enough I saw it coming: not because there were actual hints in the books, but because it just seemed obvious: she's Harry's best friend's sister, he saved her once, she's a Gryffindor, she plays Quidditch... But it annoyed me how suddenly Harry started having feelings for her out the blue, and how quickly it all happened. For the first time in the 6 books I felt a character was acting, not like he naturally would, but like the writer wanted him to act, if you know what I mean. As if saying "well, enough of this Cho Chang pantomime, there's only two books left so let's inmediately have Harry fall for Ginny". I'm not saying I preferred Cho, just that Harry and Ginny, for me, feels forced.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 17, 2005 1:54 pm (#192 of 296)

It did seem out of the blue, although I think that sort of stuff can happen to adolescents.

Harry didn't raise an eyebrow when Ginny said that she was going out with Dean at the end of book 5, yet he had an emotional crisis when he SAW them snogging. Maybe it's a bit like his parents' deaths...



Ginerva Potter - Aug 17, 2005 8:31 pm (#193 of 296)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 9:32 pm

Actually, on the second read of HBP, I noticed that Harry was noticeing Ginny before that. He just didn't realize he liked her until he saw them snogging. He spent the summer with her at the burrow, when he got on the train he forgot that they didn't hang out at school. He was irritated at some point that she wasn't with him and was going off to be with her friends. During the first potions lesson, he smelled the flowery scent that was/is Ginny. It seems like there were other clues, but I can't remember them right now. So, it wasn't really abrupt, in my opinion. It was quite subtle.

Ginny



Mrs. Sirius - Aug 18, 2005 10:01 pm (#194 of 296)
Edited Aug 18, 2005 11:31 pm

I think there are two factor to what might seem sudden in the Harry/Ginny relationship but are really significant 1) JKR never really tells us what Harry is feeling. Its hard to explain but from book one on she very carefully will describe the physical environment, what Harry saw, what he felt (physically) wet, tired, hot, but not "excited" "scared" "happy". (On reading books 1-3 the first several times, I was struck by how little she gave us of what was going on in Harry's head). Without telling us what he thinks, she will drop a hints such as -Harry saw Ginny playing with her Pygmy Puff- or - Harry said "Ginny talks in front of me now"-. That is significant because Harry is really a busy over worked man and doesn't notice anything not of overwhelming significance.

2) Harry has played Ginny's protector at least twice, while well aware that she has a crush on him. In CoS, he rescued her like a true hero with a dagger and everything. He helped her get up from the ground where she lay helpless and near death. Then in OoTP at the MOM, Bellatrix I believe it is says -let's kill (torture) the little one-. The five of them huddle around Ginny with Harry immediately jumping right in front to protect her.

In SS JKR wrote:

"There are some things you can’t share without ending up liking each other"

this just begs to be applied to Harry and Ginny.



Essidji - Aug 19, 2005 1:10 am (#195 of 296)

"There are some things you can’t share without ending up liking each other"

WOW, this is brilliant. I had completely forgotten about this one, given I never took the time to re-read The Philosopher's Stone.



Ronan - Aug 21, 2005 3:53 am (#196 of 296)

Hmm, I disagree Mrs Sirius. I can't see saving somebody's life as "sharing" anything. Harry has saved a lot of people's lives and he hasn't fallen in love with any of them. Besides, he saved her in book two and for four books he has completely ignored her as a romantic possibility. I do agree that in the context of book 6 Harry's feelings for her are very subtly and gradually exposed, but if we consider the whole series, the truth is that he has known her for five years and only now he has suddenly fallen for her. That can happen, I know, but I just can't help feeling dissapointed (I'm not a H/Hr shipper, by the way!! H/R on the other hand feels perfectly natural for me).

Besides, as someone pointed out, just a couple months ago he didn't care at all about her going out with, uhm, that Ravenclaw Quidditch player whose I can't remember, and then breaking up and choosing Dean Thomas. While Ron was furious and all that, Harry just.didn't. care.

If only JKR had started hinting this in book 5...



Saralinda Again - Aug 21, 2005 7:26 am (#197 of 296)

Actually, just the fact that Harry always seemed to know who Ginny was going out with made me more inclined to buy a Harry/Ginny 'ship [although it still isn't what I would have chosen].

Yes, she's his best friend's sister, but she's also in another year. He's clearly had his eye on her for some time, perhaps not willing to admit to himself the reason.



Mrs. D. - Aug 25, 2005 3:24 pm (#198 of 296)

For me, I hope to see the series end with the trio just as it had started. I don't like the quartet thing. I feel Ginny is being stuffed in or shoving aside Ron and Hermione. I didn't mind when Neville, Luna and Ginny joined the fray; I just don't like it when it is just her. Perhaps like another mentioned...movie contamination. I saw the first movie before ever reading any of the books and unfortunately I have only seen that Ginny in my head while reading and she does not inspire me in any way.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 25, 2005 3:57 pm (#199 of 296)

I actually find the quartet idea to be more balanced because, if there is a trio an two of the members develop romantic feelings for each. I tend to think that it could inspire within the third member of the trio a feeling of being the odd man out. By bringing Ginny into the group it maintains a sense of harmony.



M A Grimmett - Aug 25, 2005 4:50 pm (#200 of 296)

It can also give Harry more emotional stability. Best friends are different than a boy/girlfriend. Ginny is somebody with whom Harry can really let down his guard.
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Mrs. Sirius - Aug 26, 2005 5:14 am (#201 of 296)
Edited Aug 26, 2005 6:17 am

Mrs. D, much as I would love to hear that series ends with our happy trio (as we currently know them) walking happily hand-in-hand into the sunset, I just don't think that is going to happen. I have a strong feeling that the red head at series end may not be Ron. As I have been squacking for some time (I hope to have an expansion on this soon).

Ginny was created by the author as Harry's ideal mate. Her character has been developed throughout the series, although kept in the background. Having Ginny is my hope of keeping the trio (one messy dark haired, one bushy haired, and 1 red head) together.



Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 7, 2005 11:42 am (#202 of 296)

I personally don't find it weird or forced at all that Harry has all of the sudden developed feelings for Ginny. I personally went through the same thing with a good friend of mine, where we were friends for a long time, dated other people (and never cared that the other one was seeing someone) and then one night we were hanging out and he started talking about his girlfriend, and out of nowhere, I found myself really mad and jealous. Besides, I have to agree with Ginerva Potter and Mrs. Sirius about there being clues and reasons for these feelings earlier then HBP.

I also don't think a H/G ship will unbalance the trio. I think Ron and Harry's friendship is strong enough to survive anything, including H/G and R/H ships. If any ship would unbalance the trio, I think a Harry/Cho ship would do it! I think in the back of his head, Ron always knew there was a good chance Harry and Ginny would end up together, just like Harry seems to have seen Ron and Hermione being together coming way before they did.

-Jenn



Mrs. Sirius - Sep 7, 2005 9:29 pm (#203 of 296)

Ditto Soul Mate, don't forget Ron's -find someone more worthy- comment from the end of OoTP where he looks at Harry when Ginny talks about breaking up with Michael Connor.



Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 8, 2005 8:52 am (#204 of 296)

You're right Mrs. Sirius. I never thought of Ron's glance at Harry in that way, but I like it. I'll have to go back and re-read OotP and look for more clues that 1. Harry liked Ginny all along and 2. Ron has been okay with the idea of H/G all along! Thanks!

-Jenn



frogface - Sep 20, 2005 12:20 am (#205 of 296)
Edited Sep 20, 2005 1:22 am

There are some clues in OotP that Harry was starting to notice Ginny actually. Ginny is described in quite a flattering manner a number of times in the book (to be honest with you i'm too lazy to get my book and quote directly :p). Considering that the books are told from Harry's point of view, (sort of) I took this to mean possible that he was starting to notice how attractive she was. I also don't think that the build up to his realisation about feelings was so out of the blue either, because these events take place over a year remember. It takes Harry quite along time to realise, admit to himself, and make his move with Ginny when you think about it.

To keep this discussion related to the internal relationship of the trio so we don't get told off for discussing shipping, I think that if anyone could fit into this close knit group comfortably its Ginny, because she has a close relationship with them all. First she and Harry share a profound understanding of each other, second she's Ron's sister (rather obvious that one lol) and third she and Hermoine have shared each other's secrets in confidence for a number of years. Also, Hermoine and Ron must see how happy Ginny made Harry if even for a short time, and this if anything should make their friendships even stronger.



Muggle Doctor - Sep 22, 2005 6:31 pm (#206 of 296)

I'm very glad for the relationships among our trio that Harry ended up with Ginny in HBP (even though he's setting her aside to try to keep her safe, I argue that his real feelings for her haven't changed at all). He can watch Hermione and Ron's relationship develop to ANY level of depth and not give two hoots; i.e. it doesn't matter to him that of the two boy-one girl triad, Ron is the boy who got the girl. He has a girl of his own (it's just a little ironic that she's Ron's sister). Likewise, there can be no jealousy of Ron towards Harry, for this very reason; Harry may have a feisty girl who loves him, and is very demonstrative with her affections (we still haven't seen Ron and Hermione enjoying a passionate snog, either implied as Harry's was after the Quidditch finals celebration, or described), but because she is Ron's sister, he does not/cannot desire her or want to possess her for himself.

Harry certainly loves Hermione as more than just a friend, but it is as more of a sister-figure; she can never be his significant other (for want of a better word) unless both Ron and Ginny (and probably Luna as well) are dead.



Ana Cis - Sep 22, 2005 6:59 pm (#207 of 296)
Edited by Sep 22, 2005 8:01 pm

I also believe that Harry's affection for Hermione is that of a sister. He had two concerns over a Ron/Hermione romantic relationship. 1) He would feel like a 3rd wheel (this won't happen now because of Ginny); and 2) if they broke up, he didn't want to lose either one's friendship. I don't think that'll ever be a problem now. I believe Dumbledore's death has made them all grow and probably sort their priorities about what's important in life. They've shared the pain and the loss of someone they cared for and respected; plus the fact, Ron and Hermione's sharing the responsibility that they were both wrong about Harry's theory on Draco, gives them a good foundation for a deeper relationship. I compare the relationship of the trio as those of soldiers that have shared the horrors and survival of war. They could never loose the close relationship of shared experiences. Ginny's is almost there also. It even shows with Neville and Luna as Harry is filled with great affection for them. It seems that they'll soon will be included into the same fold.



Muggle Doctor - Sep 29, 2005 4:57 pm (#208 of 296)
Edited Sep 29, 2005 5:58 pm

Ginny's is almost there also.

True, AnaCis, but perhaps closer in one respect. Of all the people Harry has saved or tried to save, Ginny was possibly the one who was closest to actual death without already being gone (as Cedric was) or not in actual danger at the time Harry acted (Sirius in Book 5, even if he did die shortly afterwards). His saving of Sirius from the dementors "in the field" (as opposed to his planned formal execution) depends on how you interpret the third book and how much attention you pay to the film version (in which the dementor is already halfway through the kiss when driven off), whereas we know that even in the book version, when Harry arrived in the chamber of secrets, Ginny was already unconscious and unrousable, and Tom Riddle was becoming increasingly 'real' at her expense.



Honour - Sep 30, 2005 3:40 am (#209 of 296)

Speaking of Ginny and the time she was possessed by Tom/Voldermort, it seems general contention that powerful magic leaves behind a 'trail' or trace, so wouldn't Tom/Voldermorts magic have left some of this 'essence' in Ginny? And I suppose the next assumption would be as Voldermort is evil, does evil, would there be a tiny piece of Ginny that was evil? And would Ginny "in the end" be the hidden threat to Harry?



RoseMorninStar - Oct 1, 2005 9:59 pm (#210 of 296)

Honour, yes, powerful magic does leave traces according to JKR...if that magic is still working/in place. I would think that if the magic is now 'null & void' as the diary was after it's destruction, that there would probably be no traces left to find. I am trying to think of another good example... I am not sure I can right off the top of my head...

The cave that Harry & Dumbledore went into.. the enchantments were still 'active' so they left traces. If those enchantments were undone, I would think there would no longer be traces. Like when the diary was destroyed, it was not kept for fear that it might reactivate if the traces of magic were called upon. The magic was destroyed...gone.

At least, that is the way I think it would work.



Honour - Oct 1, 2005 10:13 pm (#211 of 296)

Hey there RoseMorningStar, probably the same way that Harry became un-frozen after DD died? I was so hoping that maybe that Ginny would be the 'secret weapon' for Harry and the Order ... oh well back to reading ... Smile



Solitaire - Oct 2, 2005 8:31 am (#212 of 296)

If those enchantments were undone, I would think there would no longer be traces

But the Diary was destroyed ... and the memory Riddle along with it. If the above is true, then any "traces" of young Riddle's magic would have been wiped out, too ... right?

Solitaire



Honour - Oct 2, 2005 12:59 pm (#213 of 296)

I'm not sure ... the memory Tom maybe but ... Since Voldermort the spell caster is still alive then that magic trace should still be ... alive? (Its alive!)...???



haymoni - Oct 11, 2005 9:53 am (#214 of 296)

I posted this on the GOF movie thread, but I thought it should be posted here:

I had noticed a bit of a pattern in the books regarding the relationships of the Trio.

SS/PS - We have the Trio working together.

COS - Ron has the adventure with Harry while Hermione is incapacitated.

POA - Hermione has the adventure with Harry while Ron is incapacitated.

GOF - Hermione stands by Harry, while Ron accuses him of putting his name in the goblet.

OotP - Ron stands by Harry, while Hermione accuses him of the "saving people" thing.

HBP - Each of the Trio seems to be acting alone.

Book 7 - They come together again.

Ron's statement about he and Hermione joining Harry lead me to think that they will work together in Book 7.



Mrs. Sirius - Oct 11, 2005 8:27 pm (#215 of 296)

Yes, I noticed that pattern primarily from the books. Now with Dumbledore gone, they only have each other. Only Ron and Hermione know the details of the horcruxes. Ron and Hermione know that Harry has no one else. They have already shown that they will rise to the occasion magnificently.

---------"We'll be there, Harry" said Ron "..... we'll go with you wherever you're going"

hawick girl [/b]- Oct 12, 2005 7:45 pm (#216 of 296)

I have thought of a way to generalize what Harry learns in each Book

PS/SS: About himself and his place in the WW

CoS: That he and TR/Voldemort have alot of similarites

PoA: James' past

GoF: About the wider WW than Great Britain

OotP: Doing what is right isn't always popular or learn to listen to your profs ??? (reaching maybe)

HBP: Voldemort's past/how to defeat him

Book 7: Lily's past, DD's past, ????



Solitaire - Jul 7, 2008 11:28 am (#217 of 296)
Edited Jul 7, 2008 12:32 pm

It is interesting that this thread has not been active since DH. It is there that we really see how much these three kids depend on, rely on, and trust one another. I think it is telling that Ron and Hermione, who are obviously in love with each other, do not let their relationship interfere with what the job the three of them have to do. It shows their commitment to Harry as a friend. It was important, too, I think, that Ron received the bequest of the Deluminator from Dumbledore, because I believe it made him realize that he was an important part of the "quest" they were undertaking ... not just a tag-along.

It's true that Ron's personal doubts and demons caused him to leave the other two for a time. It is fortunate, too, that he went to Bill rather than his parents. The fact that Bill was disappointed but did not berate him for this action allowed him the freedom to choose to return on his own. And he returned at the right time. Could Hermione have saved Harry from drowning? Could she have fetched the sword? I don't know. She did not even know Harry had followed the silver doe into the forest. But most importantly, in destroying the Horcrux, Ron was able, also, to destroy forever his questions about Harry and Hermione. He was able to "go on."

It's also fortunate, I think, that Hermione was with Harry when they went to GH. I'm not sure Ron would have been able to get Harry out of the confrontation with Nagini or deal with Harry's injuries. Come to think of it, though, Ron would have recognized that Harry was speaking Parselmouth, because he had heard him do this before. That might have prevented Harry from going upstairs with Bathilda/Nagini. Hard to know ...

It's interesting that in DH, we see some of the pattern Haymoni mentions just above, in post #214. We see the kids acting together, alone, and in various combinations. When they return to Hogwarts, we see a new combination, when Ron and Hermione go off alone, gain access to the CoS, and then destroy the cup Horcrux. We also see Harry act alone to view Snape's memories and, finally, to walk into the forest ... but not before giving Neville the commission to make sure Nagini is killed. Given the fact that Neville could have been the one to which the prophecy refers, I think it is perfect that he takes part in the destruction of a Horcrux. The Sorting Hat business at the end also seems to echo back to his own sorting, in which he walks away wearing the Sorting Hat.

The truth is that Harry could never, IMO, have found and destroyed all of the Horcruxes on his own. He needed Ron and Hermione to be there, and DD knew it. Many posts ago--in this very thread, I think--I alluded to a verse in Ecclesiastes that talks about a cord of three strands being not easily broken. I see Ron, Hermione, and Harry as a three-strand cord. They accomplish far more together than any one of them could do alone.

Solitaire



geauxtigers - Jul 7, 2008 6:47 pm (#218 of 296)

Come to think of it, though, Ron would have recognized that Harry was speaking Parselmouth, because he had heard him do this before. That might have prevented Harry from going upstairs with Bathilda/Nagini. Hard to know ... But Surely Hermione would have recogonized that it wasn't English, but she didn't because Nagini didn't speak in front of her.

I agree that Harry could not have destroyed the horcruxes along. He needed his friends to help him mentally and physically. Harry would not have survived on several occasions had it not been for Hermione's quick thinking. GOdric's Hollow and leaving the Ministry and the wedding are just a few examples. Ron couldn't have survived either. She fixed him when he was splinched.

The fact that Bill was disappointed but did not berate him for this action allowed him the freedom to choose to return on his own. I think this is a huge message that Jo was trying to convey in the novels. The ability to chose your own actions, which ultimately leads to choosing your own destiny. Does that make sense? Ron choosing to come back was key to the trio's survival and the destruction of the horcruxes, just as much as it was Hermione's choice not to leave, and Harry's to walk into the forest and let Voldemort kill him.

And also, Harry, bless him, is too narrow-minded to have solved all the horcrux mysteries himself. Ron and Hermione were key in this. If it had just been Harry, sitting in the tent alone trying to destroy horcruxes, we'd still be reading DH! LOL In this case, 3 heads are better than one!

HBP: Voldemort's past/how to defeat him

Book 7: Lily's past, DD's past, ???? I just have to comment on this! You were right, we got both! LOL

Wow, it's been a while since I've posted like that! I might've just re-hooked myself on the overanalyzing part of this forum again! LOL



Mrs. Sirius - Jul 7, 2008 7:06 pm (#219 of 296)

hawick girl [/b]- Oct 12, 2005 8:45 pm (#216 of 217) Reply
I have thought of a way to generalize what Harry learns in each Book
PS/SS: About himself and his place in the WW
CoS: That he and TR/Voldemort have alot of similarites
PoA: James' past
GoF: About the wider WW than Great Britain
OotP: Doing what is right isn't always popular or learn to listen to your profs ??? (reaching maybe)
HBP: Voldemort's past/how to defeat him
#

Book 7: Lily's past, DD's past, ????

Soli, glad you have found and revived this thread. I don't remember hawick girl but, boy was she astute!

Your cord analogy is right on the mark. A big part of the message of Harry Potter is that we can go it alone. we all need help and support of our families and loved ones.



Solitaire - Jul 7, 2008 7:41 pm (#220 of 296)
Edited Jul 7, 2008 8:42 pm

Tori and Mrs. Sirius, I am so glad you posted. I have been poking around in some of the "hidden" threads, now that I have time. (During the school year, I can barely keep up with the chat thread!) I was really surprised that this thread had been abandoned, given the focus of DH.

Tori, I can identify with Ron in one way. He learns one of the uses of the Deluminator (picking up the Potterwatch broadcasts) simply by goofing around. That is how I've learned to do almost everything I know how to do on the computer ... from messing around with it!

You are completely right about Hermione. Her planning for the quest and her mastery of the spells and everything they would need are incredible. Harry and Ron could have died on a couple of occasions, I think, had she not been as able as she is. Her quick thinking at 12 GP, when she had to shake off the DE and make sure Ron and Harry apparated with her, was incredible. I also was amazed to see how she was able to set up the enchantments and defenses of all of their campsites. Had she practiced this before? She has been of legal age since early in her 6th year, so perhaps she did do some practicing while she was at the Burrow, before Harry was taken out of PD. The bottom line is that Harry needed the input of both Ron and Hermione (especially Hermione) in order to accomplish his task. It is true that he figured out things, but would he ever have looked in Tales of Beedle the Bard on his own? I doubt it. Hermione helped him to connect all of the dots, I think. Besides, do you think he ever would have impersonated Bella? hehe

Solitaire



Quinn Crockett - Jul 8, 2008 2:38 pm (#221 of 296)

He learns one of the uses of the Deluminator (picking up the Potterwatch broadcasts) simply by goofing around

I thought he had a little magic radio for that. He did learn that he could use the deluminator to apparate to wherever someone said his name ... or something like that.



Solitaire - Jul 8, 2008 3:01 pm (#222 of 296)

You're right, Quinn, it wasn't the radio. I confused the two things. He did hear Harry and Hermione's voices coming out of it, though, when it was in his pocket. That and the light that came out of it and went into him is how he found them. It's in The Silver Doe.

Solitaire



Quinn Crockett - Jul 8, 2008 10:12 pm (#223 of 296)

Since you mention it, Solitaire, I'm curious as to what you think about Hermioe's reaction to Ron's return. That seemed a bit over the top, even for her. Do you think her behavior was simply down to how hurt she was personally by Ron's departure? What I mean is, she felt that he was leaving her as much as (if not more than) "the mission".



Mrs. Sirius - Jul 9, 2008 6:31 am (#224 of 296)
Edited Jul 9, 2008 7:32 am

Oh, yes Quinn, it was definitely personal. Remember Harry often found Ron and Hermione huddled together then had them stop when he entered the room. Hermione need a another person to lean on, to bounce ideas of off. Someone to keep her pointed in the right direction or to steer her back if she were getting of the track. Hermione tends to over intellectualize, analyze and could get way too cautious. Ron was the other side of that. Ron is Hermione's rock.



Solitaire - Jul 9, 2008 9:51 am (#225 of 296)

I definitely think Hermione took Ron's leaving personally. More than that, however, I also think she took it as 1) an inability to "hang in there" when things seemed to be going nowhere and 2) a misunderstanding of the enormity of the task they were facing. Whatever he may have said, he seemed to think Dumbledore had given Harry some sort of blueprint or game plan to follow. I think it came as a shock that Harry was pretty much "flying blind." It's one thing to march into danger with a friend when there is a very specific goal ahead. It's quite another to just knock around without knowing precisely what they need to do or where they are supposed to be going.

Up to this point, Ron has not been great at "ad libbing," or thinking on his feet, has he? If a task isn't clearly spelled out, he usually relies on Hermione to help him sort things out (think about his classwork and assignments). In Harry's past "adventures," things have been more "contained," although they did get increasingly more difficult. This time, the kids are not within the confines of Hogwarts or even the Ministry. They are out in the whole world without much idea of where to go. Also, the danger the kids faced in the past was usually over within a few hours.

This time, they are in constant danger over a period of months; they are without adults to consult or to help them; and they are cold and hungry for a great part of the time. Ron was really not up to this last problem, and I think it just all became too much for him for a moment. He lost his temper and disapparated. He said he wanted to come back as soon as he'd gone, but he ran into the gang of Snatchers. I'm sure that experience, plus having some time at Bill & Fleur's and hearing the Potterwatch, helped him put the scope of things into perspective. He came back at the right time, because he saved Harry's life.

When Hermione sees him in the tent, every emotion she has been holding in for weeks--not only things I mentioned above, but fear for him, as well--bursts out all over him. But didn't he need to see it? Face it ... she would not have been so over-the-top if she hadn't loved him.

Solitaire



Quinn Crockett - Jul 9, 2008 11:44 am (#226 of 296)

Face it ... she would not have been so over-the-top if she hadn't loved him. - Oh yeah, totally!



geauxtigers - Jul 9, 2008 7:04 pm (#227 of 296)

Soli, I was about to type up a long winded post until I read yours! Took the words right out of my mouth! Hermione absolutely was fuming because she loved him. She has also been a lot less likely to forgive and forget than either Harry or Ron. Harry forgives Ron right away for the Goblet of Fire and the Silver Doe (granted Ron did save his life). Hermione on the other hand would not forgive Ron for Lavender, running away, Scabbers, and I'm sure there are a few other things, but you get the idea. I also think that being a girl makes a difference. I don't base much fact on this, but I think guys will tend to forgive faster than girls would because they don't get so emotionally involved in things. Does that make sense? You never hear about guys crying because they're in a fight with their best friend while girls almost always get very upset if in a fight with a friend. I don't mean to be stereotypical, but I think in this case, gender has a lot to do with it as well. And as Soli said, the biggest factor in Hermione "overreaction" was that she was in love with Ron and he disappointed her in the biggest way possible. He left and she didn't know what had happened to him, if he was alive and if she'd ever see him again. Then he comes back months later and tries to pretend it's okay and everything she was fearing about him and about the mission Dumbledore set them ect, all came crashing down at once. I'd be mad too. LOL



Solitaire - Jul 9, 2008 7:16 pm (#228 of 296)
Edited Jul 9, 2008 8:18 pm

Was it months later? I lose track of time in this book! Does anyone else suffer from this problem? I know they went to GH around Christmas and back to Hogwarts in the spring. I guess I'll have to keep a diary the next time I read DH, so I can remember when each thing happens. LOL

Solitaire

PS Um, long-winded? Moi??? **batting eyes innocently**



geauxtigers - Jul 9, 2008 7:40 pm (#229 of 296)

Haha Soli, well as you can see, mine turned into a long winded post as well! LOL And yes, it was months. They went to Godric's Hollow at Christmastime(Ron left before this) and Voldemort fell on May 2nd. Give you some perspective? I think Ron came back sometime in March, though that's a guess based off of how long they were at Shell Cottage for at least a month.



rambkowalczyk - Jul 10, 2008 2:50 pm (#230 of 296)

mini time line

Ron left in October. It was right after overhearing Dean, Ted Tonks, and the Goblins talking. The visit to the graveyard was on Christmas Eve and early Christmas day was the visit to Bathilda Bathshot.

Late Christmas day or the next day Harry and Hermione hear voices and quickly Disapperate to the Forest of Dean. That night is when Ron saves Harry.



geauxtigers - Jul 11, 2008 3:17 pm (#231 of 296)

Well, I guess I was a little off! LOL Thanks Ram!



Soul Search - Jul 28, 2008 8:23 am (#232 of 296)

This post is from the series-read-along and Chapter Six, "The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters." One cited activity for the read-a-long was to track the development of the relationship of the trio. Chapter Six is where they first meet. The series-read-along Chapter Six discussion starts with post #304.

The chapter deliberately progresses through all the steps for developing a friendship:

Establish a mutual interest in a friendship.

Recognize similar background and interests.

Each willing to share with the other.

Each willing to help in a time of diversity.

We see the friendship develop over the course of the train ride to Hogwarts:

Harry first sees Ron on the station with the other Weasleys. Mrs. Weasley is kind and helpful, even letting him go to platform 9 3/4 before her youngest son, Ron. Harry might even be a bit envious of Ron, having a kind mother and an obviously good family.

Harry then meets the twins. They help him, are kind, confirm that he is THE Harry Potter, but then join their mother on the platform. Reinforcement that this is a good family.

Harry overhears the Weasleys on the platform. Mrs. Weasley expresses concern for Harry and chides the twins about asking Harry about his parents deaths. Harry is grateful, since he doesn't want to call attention to himself.

Ron enters the compartment and actually asks Harry if he can join him. How polite. Ron must come from a well-mannered family. Ron and Harry have an exploratory discussion. Ron satisfies his curiousity about Harry, his scar, and the muggles he grew up with, without going too far and embarassing Harry, and Harry learns about Ron, his family, Voldemort, and a little about the wizarding world. This discussion establishes the following:

Neither Harry nor Ron have what might be termed a "best friend." (Harry because of Dudley. Ron because the twins are the brothers closest in age and they treat him as a subject for their jokes.) Both want a "best friend."

Both grew up financially "poor" having to wear hand-me-downs and never having enough money for frills.

They are both rather even in magical knowledge, in spite of Ron being from a wizarding family.

Each has something to contribute. Harry knows about muggles, is famous for his scar, and says Voldemort's name. Ron has a family, knows about the wizarding world, and about Hogwarts.

Ron helps alleviate Harry's great fears by telling him it is all right that he doesn't know much about the wizarding world.

Throughout the discussion, neither tries to put the other down nor tries to dominate the budding relationship. Each is interested in the other.

Harry, very generously, shares what he buys from the cart and Ron offers to share his corned beef sandwiches, which is all he has.

The incident with Draco cements their budding friendship. Draco is a common enemy, and each takes a risk to help the other. Harry decidely chooses Ron over Draco's offer of pureblood association and Ron stands with Harry when the confrontation appears about to become physical.

Ron and Harry's friendship builds throughout the series, but it is firmly established on the train ride to Hogwarts.



Solitaire - Jul 28, 2008 11:04 am (#233 of 296)

I think it is interesting, too, that even though Hermione seems to be the more talented and level-headed of Harry's two close friends (I realize they are not yet friends), it is the loss of Ron's companionship that is the most painful to him at various points in the HP series (GoF and DH). It is hard for Harry to function when they are "on the outs."



PeskyPixie - Jul 28, 2008 12:08 pm (#234 of 296)

I've sort of felt sorry for Hermione because she sometimes seems like the third wheel of the friendship. I mean, the boys care for her a lot, but they just seem to prefer one another's company more. Please note that I am not commenting on whether such a situation is realistic or not. It just seems hard on Hermione who really cares for Harry and Ron. Of course, by DH Harry has matured into Hermione's friendship and Ron has, well, he really cares for Hermione as well , but it seems a bit unfair on Hermione in the earlier years.



Solitaire - Jul 28, 2008 12:37 pm (#235 of 296)
Edited Jul 28, 2008 1:38 pm

Hermione was really the brains of the outfit, especially in the earlier years. She is the one who helps Harry figure out how the Basilisk has been moving about in the castle. She teaches him the summoning charm for his first Triwizard task. She gets them away from Umbridge. Even in DH, she is the one who is thinking ahead, far more than Harry. Without Hermione, the kids would have apparated out of the Burrow with absolutely nothing. She was the one who packed regular clothing, robes, the tent, the books, THE INVISIBILITY CLOAK ... all in that little bag! (I wish I had one of those bags!) Face it! She has saved their bacon on so many occasions! She was essential, I think, to Harry's ultimate success.

Solitaire



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 28, 2008 8:03 pm (#236 of 296)

Well, girls do mature faster than boys



rassannassar - Jul 29, 2008 9:25 pm (#237 of 296)
Edited Jul 29, 2008 10:26 pm

Well, Harry said it himself, Hermione was like his sister. It could probably be said that Ron is like his brother. And usually guys prefer to be with their brothers than sisters. There are some things you don't talk about with your sister that you can talk about with your brother.

OH, and where did this Voldemort fell on 2 May come from?



PeskyPixie - Jul 29, 2008 9:33 pm (#238 of 296)
Edited Jul 29, 2008 10:50 pm

"Well, Harry said it himself, Hermione was like his sister. It could probably be said that Ron is like his brother. And usually guys prefer to be with their brothers than sisters. There are some things you don't talk about with your sister that you can talk about with your brother."

Yes, but by the time they reach that sibling stage they are more mature. Hermione is the odd one out in the earlier books, and I think that has more to do with personal interests and maturity than things you'd rather talk about with a sibling of the same gender.

I just think Hermione's great for sticking with them and waiting for them to mature. I know that I probably wouldn't.



Solitaire - Jul 29, 2008 9:44 pm (#239 of 296)

Even at that early age, they knew they needed her brains. Well, Harry knew. Anyway ...

"... from that moment on, Hermione became their friend. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them."



rcs - Jul 31, 2008 8:47 pm (#240 of 296)

Here's an interesting question: We've pretty well established that Harry and Ron could not have defeated LV without Hermione. But could Harry and Hermione have done it without Ron? What qualities of Ron's were indispensable to the final victory (with Harry and Hermione, it's fairly obvious, but it's harder with Ron). I'm not talking about specific incidents (e.g. rescuing Harry from the frozen pool, and so forth) but about larger things/personal qualities.



tandaradei - Jul 31, 2008 8:55 pm (#241 of 296)

Well, obviously Dumbledore judged Ron was essential, or Ron wouldn't have received that light-putter-outer....



Mrs. Sirius - Jul 31, 2008 8:59 pm (#242 of 296)

Remember when Ron came back Harry and Hermione were running on empty. Ron was the one who took charge of staying positive and encouraging them onward and forward.



Quinn Crockett - Jul 31, 2008 10:27 pm (#243 of 296)

Ron is also the only one of the Trio to have grown up entirely in the Wizarding World. He would surely bring a kind of knowledge to every situation that the other two might not be able to obtain otherwise.



Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 2:50 am (#244 of 296)

Ron saved Harry's life. If he had not come back at exactly that moment, might Harry have drowned?



Madam Pince - Aug 1, 2008 10:16 am (#245 of 296)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 11:17 am

Nah. Snape was lurking behind a tree somewhere. He would've hauled him out if he'd had to.



Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 10:23 am (#246 of 296)

Was he still lurking, or had he gone by then? Oh, yeah ... I think Ron did say he saw something move over by a tree, but he didn't have time to check it out. Anyway, could Snape have saved him, even if he'd wanted to, and not have negated how Harry got the sword?



Madam Pince - Aug 1, 2008 10:33 am (#247 of 296)

Well, if it was a choice between that and letting him drown, I don't see that it would've made much difference. He'd do no good with the sword if he was dead!



Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 10:36 am (#248 of 296)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 11:37 am

True ... but would he have had to take the sword back? Could Snape have destroyed the locket? Actually, it would have given him another chance to berate Harry by calling him stupid for jumping into a pool while wearing the Horcrux ... assuming he knew what it was. He'd have liked that!



Orion - Aug 1, 2008 1:38 pm (#249 of 296)

I'd have liked that, too. Especially because Snape would be dripping and slowly freezing to a pillar of ice. "You - atchoo!!! - idiot! - atchoo! Damn!!!"



Madam Pince - Aug 1, 2008 2:12 pm (#250 of 296)

LOL!
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poohnpiglettt - Aug 1, 2008 5:56 pm (#251 of 296)

I havent read DH in a while but wasn't Ron the one who came up with the idea of getting the baskilisk fangs from the cos when they no longer had the sword? That would definitely make him essential because when Neville pulled the sword out and killed Nagini there would still have been a horcrux left.



Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 6:32 pm (#252 of 296)

Yep ... Ron got into the Chamber of Secrets, and he and Hermione took care of the Cup while Harry was talking to McGonagll and everyone was bracing for the battle. Next, they head to the RoR to take care of the Diadem. I don't think there were anymore Horcruxes once Neville kills Nagini. In fact, Harry says as much to Voldemort as they are circling each other in the final showdown: There are no more Horcruxes. It's just you and me. Neither can live while the other survives, and once of us is about to leave for good ..."

They're all gone: the ring, the diary, the locket, the diadem, the cup, the snake, and the bit of Voldy that is in Harry. That bit was destroyed by Voldy himself (unknown to him, of course) in the Forest.

Solitaire



PeskyPixie - Aug 1, 2008 9:23 pm (#253 of 296)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 10:24 pm

Ron is such a drama king! He's fighting with Hermione or he's not talking to Harry. Actually, do Hermione and Harry even have any real disagreements where the two ignore one another?



Quinn Crockett - Aug 1, 2008 10:03 pm (#254 of 296)

Harry gets angry with Hermione when she tattles about the Firebolt. Though he admittedly does understand why she did it, he is still very angry with her for running to McGonagall.



Solitaire - Aug 2, 2008 9:52 am (#255 of 296)

The Firebolt thing was in their 3rd year ... they were still pretty young then. Actually, picking on Hermione is not a good thing to do. She is skilled enough to make one's life miserable (Ron and the birds). LOL



Soul Search - Aug 3, 2008 3:09 pm (#256 of 296)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 4:18 pm

This post relates to the series read-a-long. See previous post #232. It is probably time to bring Hermione into the Trio.

Hermione also first appears in Chapter Six, "The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters," but while Harry and Ron form a lasting friendship on the train ride, it takes a while for Hermione to join the group. I would even suggest that, though a true friendship does develop, the boys' relationship with Hermione is never quite the same as that between themselves.

Interestingly, though, we never see Hermione with anyone else. She and Ginny hang out a bit, but Hermione doesn't form any relationship even with the Gryffindor girls she shares a dormitory with.

Neville comes to their train compartment asking if they have seen a toad. He leaves, then returns with a girl. The girl, again, asks if they have seen a toad. We get the descripton that she had "a bossy sort of voice, ... ." She then proceeds to criticize Ron's use of magic and brags that what she has tried has all worked. She spoke very fast.

She announces that she is Hermione Granger and asks who they are. Ron gives his name, but she focuses on Harry when he gives his name, saying "Are you really?" and, again bragging, that she knows all about him. After she leaves, Ron concludes the encounter by saying "Whatever House I'm in, I hope she is not in it." Not a good start for forming a lasting friendship.

Neville had already asked them about his toad, so why did Hermione come in to ask again? Why, obviously she had heard the rumors about Harry Potter being on the train and had to take a look for herself. Her "Are you really?" is saying she was doubtful of the rumors, but now knows they were true. She leaves once Harry confirms his identity.

Hermione comes back into the compartment when she hears the "fighting." She overhears Ron's and Harry's discussion about meeting Malfoy, but then just tells them, in her bossy tone, to put their robes on. As a parting remark, she points out Ron has dirt on his nose, just like his mother did. Not a good start.

In "The Sorting Hat," Hermione, Harry, Ron, and Neville do share a boat to Hogwarts. Symbolic?

Hermione continues, in her know-it-all fashion, to tell them about the bewitched ceiling. Ron groans when Hermione is sorted into Gryffindor. At dinner, Hermione expresses, with Percy, a great interest in lessons.

With this as a start, it is a wonder they all got together at all.



tandaradei - Aug 3, 2008 3:18 pm (#257 of 296)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 4:20 pm

Once again Soul Search I think you should add that post to the read-along!

As to how they got together, I somewhere posted fairly recently a theory that since Hermione was such a bookworm and had read of Harry in books, that it became her intention of becoming a close supporter of Harry (once she had learned he was in her class) ... basically, IMO in the hopes that her name might eventually appear next to Harry's in books.

Yes, this sounds unbelievably cynical and no one took up the challenge to disprove me. But honestly, don't most decisions at least begin for selfish reasons? I wasn't trying to say that most Hermione's actions in the HP series were less than wonderful; just that in her bookishness, selfishness might have played a factor.

Too, I rather thought she would have thought Ron a wild card, somewhat usurping her position already, but didn't know where to go with that theory.



Orion - Aug 3, 2008 3:19 pm (#258 of 296)

LOL, Soul Search, all the time I had this nagging feeling that Hermione married Ron simply because he was the only boy she knew. Rowling does her best to dispel this impression (which some other readers must have had, too!) in HBP, when Ron and Hermione have all sorts of haphazard flirts which don't convince anybody. Ron, Hermione and Harry are an isolated group inside the Hogwarts community because they share unique experiences they can't even begin to explain to anybody who just has to worry about homework.



Soul Search - Aug 3, 2008 3:26 pm (#259 of 296)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 4:49 pm

"in the hopes that her name might eventually appear next to Harry's in books."

I don't see ANY canon hint that Hermione seeks fame of any sort. Even though she likes being the best at studies, she doesn't brag much, and only to Ron and Harry. Even in OotP when others are amazed that she can come up with the Proteus charm, she demurs and dismisses her accomplishment.



Soul Search - Aug 3, 2008 4:04 pm (#260 of 296)

Orion,

I have a theory about Hermione/Ron that I would like to use the read-a-long to develop. Maybe I should introduce it now.

Hermione develops an interest in Ron early in their relationship. But, Ron doesn't quite meet her expectations for boyfriend/husband material. As time passes, Ron makes some progress, for example, he successfully casts the spell to save her from the troll, but he also backslides, for example his lack of enthusiasm for SPEW. The final moment, of course, is in Deathly Hallows when Ron expresses concern for the House ELves. Ron, of course, is unaware of Hermione's interest. Harry does pick up on it, but makes no comments to either party.

I thought we could chart the ups and downs of their relationship for the read-a-long.

Along the same lines, I have wondered why Hermione went for Ron; why not Harry? She, showed an interest in him by seeking out his train compartment. I will have to check as we read SS, but I have the impression she treated him like a brother from the start.



megfox* - Aug 3, 2008 5:37 pm (#261 of 296)

Well, why does anyone fall in love with anyone else? Sometimes, the least likely people connect to each other. I agree with the idea that some things that Ron did drove Hermione nuts, but as he was able to become more mature, she was able to look past those things, and they didn't matter, because she loved him.



tandaradei - Aug 3, 2008 5:38 pm (#262 of 296)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 6:39 pm

Soul Search said:

...[cut]...I don't see ANY canon hint that Hermione seeks fame of any sort....[cut]...

Yeah, that theory I'd put out was weak, all right. I was reaching for straws, no wonder no one replied. Oh well, at least knowing him by name alerted her to his presence.



Quinn Crockett - Aug 3, 2008 7:18 pm (#263 of 296)
Edited Aug 3, 2008 8:20 pm

No, I could see there being a fleeting hint of that kind of hope in Hermione's mind, Tandaradei. She says to Harry, "You're in... (such and such) books" and is actually surprised (and I would even say disappointed) that Harry hasn't ever "googled" himself, as it were. Until Hermione actually meets Harry and discovers that what she's read of him may have been slightly exaggerated, that he seems really to be just an ordinary sort of kid, I could see her thinking that maybe there's a chance she could one day see her own name alongside his.

I agree that Hermione never saw Harry as a romantic interest. She was interested in him, first as a sort of celebrity, then immediately had no interest in him when she saw how "ordinary" he really was - with his rule-breaking and shenanigans, etc. After that they were friends and stayed that way. Interesting, too, is that both Harry and Hermione are "only" children, and that their bond went straight to that of siblings and never romance. Whereas Ron has more siblings than he'd ever dream of wanting and he never seemed to me to view Hermione in this way - though yes, he did accept Harry as a sort of 6th brother almost immediately.



Orion - Aug 4, 2008 1:58 am (#264 of 296)

It's normal that Hermione goes for Ron and not for Harry, isn't it? I'd have preferred Ron, too. Not because he is much taller (he is, actually, and Harry is very, very small at the start - but it shouldn't be important , but because Ron is much, much funnier. Harry is involved in so many problems and activities that he doesn't have many chances to be a normal boy doing normal things. He seems to be out of the "chattering crowd of Gryffindors" most of the time, and also out of the romantic circuit.

In OOP when Harry gets romantic on Cho it seems an almost indecent thing to do - you think "you are possessed by Voldie, Sirius is in mortal danger, the Order is in uproar, so what are you doing here snogging?"



PeskyPixie - Aug 8, 2008 2:09 pm (#265 of 296)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 3:12 pm

I would have preferred Harry. Ron would have made me tear out my hair on a regular basis! He's my least favourite of the trio, but he is quite funny and capable of much when he doesn't overthink things.

On second thought, I would have preferred neither. LOL!



Solitaire - Aug 8, 2008 2:23 pm (#266 of 296)

The fact that the Trio's fallings-out with each other seem to be rather intense at times is, IMO, a reflection of the deeper and more serious nature of their love (friendship love) for each other. Would Ron's jealousy of anyone else have been as emotionally fraught as it was where Harry was concerned? I don't think so. I think it is the very closeness and depth of their friendship that creates all of the inner conflicts about what they feel and why. We see a very strong a very strong indicator that something is going on with Ron-Hermione back in GoF, when they have the big fight following the Yule Ball.

Why does Hermione go for Ron instead of Harry? I think she is drawn to his strong sense of family, just as Harry is. She is an only child; Harry is an orphan raised by unkind and unloving relatives. I think both of them see in the warmth of the Weasley family relationships something they are lacking in their own lives, however much Hermione loves her parents. She begins to detach from her parents at a very young age and spends the majority of her holidays either at school or with the Weasley family by the time she is 13-14. On the surface, it seems weird that her parents would let this happen so easily; however, they probably realize she will begin to detach sooner than most kids and would prefer she be in company with decent family people like the Weasleys, who understand the Wizarding World and will offer her guidance. Sorry if that seems disjointed. I've been suffering forum-separation for an entire week!

Solitaire



Orion - Aug 8, 2008 2:53 pm (#267 of 296)

Hi Soli! So you're also a supporter of "Hermione really marries the Weasleys, not Ron". Well, I don't know. Ron is quite lovable in himself, I think. You only have to think about how he first meets Harry and how friendly and open he tries to make a new friend. Hermione has great taste, IMO.



Solitaire - Aug 8, 2008 3:48 pm (#268 of 296)
Edited Aug 8, 2008 4:51 pm

LOL, Orion! I guess it looks that way, but no ... I don't think so. Ron and Harry were Hermione's closest friends. I think she also cares for Luna, Ginny, and Neville, as well ... but that's another story. I think it's natural that, as she begins to transition more fully into the Wizarding World, she would spend more and more time with her closest Wizarding friends. Harry is out of the question--Can you see the Dursleys allowing him to have Hermione over for the summer?--but Ron's family is okay with this. It also provides Hermione with one of her two best girlfriends, Ginny. I think it is natural that, as close as they are and as many "adventures" as they share, they begin to look at each other as boy and girl instead of just friends.

Hermione is, of course, far more aware of this dynamic than Ron. He is really irritated at her for going to the Yule Ball with Viktor, but he attributes it to being indignant over her disloyalty to Harry rather than to his own jealousy, which it really is. Hermione hits pretty close to the truth in that argument she has with him after the Ball ... but he still doesn't get it.

Then the two of them are so funny in HBP! They remind me of my junior high kids trying to make each other jealous. She is trying to get Ron to see her as more than just a buddy! He feels he doesn't measure up to Viktor in the romance department, so he decides to get some experience with Lavender. They remind me of Gidget and Moondoggie! LOL

In DH, when Hermione becomes so enraged at Ron after he returns from leaving them, we see once again the depth of her feelings. People who don't care for each other don't get that wound up. I think Ron has probably loved Hermione since GoF, but he wasn't really sure of what he was feeling. Or perhaps he felt she should just know this. After all, she is smart, right? LOL

Solitaire



Julia H. - Aug 9, 2008 3:18 am (#269 of 296)

I agree that it was in GoF that Ron realized Hermione was a girl - but he needed to see another (an older) boy treating her like one. (This seems to be JKR's standard version with boys: Harry also realizes his own feelings about Ginny when he sees her kissing Dean.) However, at 14 and 15 Ron is too young / immature to start a more "advanced" relationship with her, all he can do is watching her closely in case another boy should get near her. Actually I like this gradual development, it is believable. In OOTP, he is so eager to hear how Harry kissed Cho! It is the stage of preparation for him:

When Harry mentions Cho was crying, Ron asks if he was "that bad at kissing". Harry almost agrees and then Hermione interrupts:

'Of course you are not' ... 'How do you know?' said Ron very sharply.

Hermione is more mature and I think she uses Viktor to hint what she expects Ron to do. (After all she is the one who gives Ginny that wonderful piece of advice.)

I agree that it may be Ron's sense of humour that Hermione finds attractive and also the facts that he is a faithful friend and is likely to become a family-centred man (he is protective of his sister). In comparison with Harry, Ron is probably much easier to guide and shape into what Hermione wants him to be.



PeskyPixie - Aug 9, 2008 5:00 pm (#270 of 296)

"In comparison with Harry, Ron is probably much easier to guide and shape into what Hermione wants him to be." -Julia

Yes! A lot of strong-willed women actually prefer that, despite how much they claim that they like a man with a mind of his own.



Solitaire - Aug 9, 2008 8:19 pm (#271 of 296)
Edited Aug 9, 2008 9:22 pm

Actually, Hermione reminds me a bit of Molly in her relationship with Ron. I wonder if she and Ron will have a Molly-Arthur kind of relationship.



Orion - Aug 10, 2008 12:47 am (#272 of 296)

Oh, poor Ron. I think they are an awesome pairing. I sort of fell in love with Ron on the first pages when he arrived, and also totally with Hermione. And I secretly wished that they would become a couple. Now don't spoil it for me! Ron doesn't deserve an authoritarian patronising shrew.



Madam Pince - Aug 10, 2008 8:20 am (#273 of 296)

I noticed that Hermione-Molly similarity, too, Soli. Then yesterday while watching OotP, I wondered why we were all so surprised by Molly's final "strength" against Bellatrix in DH -- we were set up for it by being shown what a powerful witch Ginny was developing into. We should've known that she got it from her mother. So I can see it as a possibility that both Ron and Harry are marrying versions of Molly. (But Ginny doesn't seem as "have-to-have-things-my-way" as Hermione. Maybe that comes from actually living with Molly...)



Solitaire - Aug 10, 2008 9:29 am (#274 of 296)

I guess I don't think of Molly as "an authoritarian, patronising shrew," Orion. She acts like a lot of moms I knew growing up--worried about her kids, affectionate, giving them "what for" when they were wrong ... but always, always loving them! She is certainly a "mother hen," but isn't that natural for the circumstances in which they are living? Yes, she gets exasperated with her husband when he does things like enchant cars to fly--possibly the Wizarding equivalent of a Tim "the Toolman" Taylor--but so does my sister when my brother-in-law does something dorky ... and so do a lot of my friends! Molly is a very real character, IMO. She adores her kids and her husband, and though they may get on her nerves sometimes, she will kill to protect them, as we see. I love Molly!

Solitaire



Orion - Aug 10, 2008 10:46 am (#275 of 296)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 11:46 am

True, Soli, we're invited to see Molly in that light. However, in OOP she behaves absolutely appallingly, IMO. In Headquarters she behaves as if it was actually her house, and it isn't. She prevents Sirius and Harry from having any meaningful conversation. If Harry had known more about his visions, he wouldn't have believed they were true and Sirius wouldn't have died. So Molly is in a way responsible for Sirius' death.

She is not the only one, naturally. Sirius' death is the result of a combined effort of Harry, Kreacher, Bella, Voldie, Dumbledore, Umbridge and Molly and not of Molly alone, but I can't help putting the blame on the lot and hating them a bit every time I read their names. Still, Molly is in no way a perfect character.



Solitaire - Aug 10, 2008 11:16 am (#276 of 296)

Talking with Sirius may or may not have helped Harry understand his visions. Are we sure Sirius knew everything Dumbledore knew or suspected? Knowing Dumbledore's penchant for secrets, I doubt it. I think the Order knew a lot, but I don't think they knew everything. I very "siriusly" doubt Sirius knew anything Dumbledore didn't want Harry to know, because Sirius would have found a way to tell Harry, and Dumbledore knew this.

As to Molly's behavior in OotP, I think the Boggart scene pretty well explains why she behaved as she did. She was absolutely terrified of what was happening and fearful of her kids, Harry, her husband, and everyone else every minute of every day. Being a mother, she wanted to shelter all of the kids from some of what was happening, until it was essential for them to know. I agree that Harry should have been told up front what was happening--and by Dumbledore, who knew (or suspected) the whole story. Frankly, I do not believe any of the adults at 12GP knew every detail of what Dumbledore knew/suspected, and giving partial information--as we all know--can cause more problems than giving none. Additionally, my guess is that Molly was following Dumbledore's wishes respecting what Harry was supposed to know. Perhaps she felt she was not the one to go against what she had been told to do. Blaming Molly for any part in Sirius's death is unfair.

Solitaire



Quinn Crockett - Aug 10, 2008 1:44 pm (#277 of 296)

Blaming Molly for any part in Sirius's death is unfair. - Solitaire

I absolutely agree! But to elaborate would mean moving to the Molly thread, I think.



Solitaire - Aug 10, 2008 3:53 pm (#278 of 296)
Edited Aug 10, 2008 5:02 pm

I agree. I thought about that later ... when I was at lunch! LOL Any follow-up definitely belongs on the Molly thread. I've copied the content of my post over to Molly's thread, if anyone is interested.

Solitaire



Mrs. Sirius - Aug 11, 2008 10:45 pm (#279 of 296)
Edited Aug 11, 2008 11:47 pm

I read the first 3 books just before GOF was published. I was able to read them straight through. I picked up on the coupling at that point, before the Yule Ball lead up in GOF. I think Hermione's reaction to Ron on the train, she was superior and bossy and Ron was not at all pleasant to her.

The tension in their meeting was a counter tension that could be sustained for several stories. While my reasons for being such a Harry-Ginny 'shipper is not as noble for Harry,

# getting together with Ginny makes Harry Ron's brother and provides Harry finally with a loving family, mother substitute in Molly and father figure, a father-in-law he can share something, muggle knowledge,

I saw Ginny as his perfect mate at least since reading POA if not COS. Ginny's voice is the first Harry hears after Mrs. Weasley in speaks on platform 9 3/4 which I though appropriate.



me and my shadow 813 - Feb 1, 2009 10:22 pm (#280 of 296)

I'm not sure if I'm on the right thread but I was reading "Global Nuclear War" thread out of pure curiosity (and still don't really know what was going on there... ) but there was mention of Vold targeting Mr and Mrs Granger in DH and not HBP. Someone said that perhaps Vold didn't know that HRH were close until DH or that Severus, when asked by Vold, would just say Harry's friends were incompetant. I immediately thought of Spinner's End when Severus announces to Bella and Narcissa that Harry has gotten lucky and simply has "more talented friends". If Narcissa or Bella asked Draco about this during HBP he would immediately have told them about Hermione. No matter she's a "mudblood" he would still have to admit that she is very intelligent and knows every spell, charm, all the history, things Harry might need to know. Not that it matters (what does ultimately... ) but I'm wondering what others think about it.



Solitaire - Feb 1, 2009 10:42 pm (#281 of 296)

Draco was at school during HBP, even over Christmas holidays, I believe. Would he have even come into contact with Bella during the year? Besides, Bella would have known about Hermione and Ron from the DoM incident the previous year anyway. I do not think any of this was an issue while Hermione was at school. She was just afraid that her parents could be apprehended and tortured in order to get to her during her DH year. Her actions took them out of harm's way.

As to whether anyone would have known about Harry's more talented friends, weren't Ron and Hermione already fingered by the Ministry as being on the lam with Harry?



me and my shadow 813 - Feb 1, 2009 11:00 pm (#282 of 296)

I guess I was thinking that, after DoM incidents, Bella would have been desperately trying to be the one to help Vold get Harry. The Spinner's End scene occurs before Draco leaves for school, so Severus's comment could then have turned into a discussion with Draco about who these talented friends are. We hear Severus asking Draco if his aunt has been teaching him Occlumency, so I figured Bella had been hanging around the Mansion at some recent point .

It had been brought up why Vold hadn't gone after the Grangers in HBP and used them as blackmail or something. It seemed like an interesting train of thought... other than that I'm just babbling.



Julia H. - Feb 2, 2009 5:34 am (#283 of 296)

Apparently, in the HBP year, Voldemort did nothing else but do Occlumency against Harry and wait for someone to kill Dumbledore for him. He had suffered a serious blow at the Ministry, the government that had let him be and had "covered up" for him was now gone, the WW knew he was active again and several of his DE's were in prison (possibly giving the Ministry information about him). I think Voldemort decided not to do anything about Harry until he saw whether Dumbledore was successfully killed or not.



rambkowalczyk - Feb 2, 2009 12:31 pm (#284 of 296)

I think Voldy was also trying to get key people in ministry positions as well.

On the other hand other families were terrorized in book 6, so why wasn't Hermione's. Maybe he underestimated Hermione as anyone important.



me and my shadow 813 - Feb 2, 2009 12:40 pm (#285 of 296)

I see a parallel between Severus and Hermione there. Not that she was a double agent of course but that, both were underestimated by Vold and, being "insufferable know it alls" were invaluable in the cause to finish him for good.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 2, 2009 7:36 pm (#286 of 296)

Hee Hee mams, "insufferable know it alls!" I never really connected Hermione and Snape like that. Voldemort had patience. I think he knew there was a time and place to get Harry. It would be much easier after Dumbledore was out of the picture. Once again he underestimated love. He did not realize the extent of the relationships between HRH. LPO



Solitaire - Feb 2, 2009 10:04 pm (#287 of 296)

I never really connected Hermione and Snape like that.

I did ... and somewhere in the archives is a post comparing them. I've often wondered why Snape wasn't more empathetic with Hermione, when I'll bet he was just like her in school, knowing the answer to every single question.



Michael Franz - Feb 3, 2009 3:10 pm (#288 of 296)

I don't think Voldemort would go after the Grangers, since he's too monomaniacal to think about anyone but Harry. I do, however, think Lucius Malfoy would do it in a heartbeat. Of course, he is in Azkaban during HBP, but Narcissa and Bellatrix are not. And we've already seen what Bellatrix did to Hermione in DH.



Michael Franz - Feb 3, 2009 3:24 pm (#289 of 296)

Apparently, in the HBP year, Voldemort did nothing else but do Occlumency against Harry and wait for someone to kill Dumbledore for him.

Well, he did destroy the Brockdale Bridge and kill Amelia Bones. And even if he, personally, didn't do more, his Death Eaters were killing so many people that the Trio was checking the newspaper every day to see if anyone they knew was dead! That hardly sounds like a man who wants to keep a low profile!



wynnleaf - Feb 3, 2009 6:07 pm (#290 of 296)

I've often wondered why Snape wasn't more empathetic with Hermione, when I'll bet he was just like her in school, knowing the answer to every single question. (Solitaire)

A teacher I know mentioned recently that she too was much like Hermione, but that now as a teacher she found that sort of thing quite irritating. One of my daughters was like that as well and a number of her teachers made it pretty clear that they didn't care for it.



mona amon - Feb 3, 2009 6:36 pm (#291 of 296)

There was really no need for the DEs to go after the Grangers or the Dursleys as long as they knew Harry and Hermione were at Hogwarts. It's only during the DH year when they go into hiding, that the people connected to them are in danger, because the DEs may torture them to try and get information about their whereabouts, or hold them hostage so that they may come back to rescue them.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 4, 2009 6:39 pm (#292 of 296)

I loved in DH how Ron and Hermione thought through how to protect their families. Harry had no idea the logistics of such an undertaking. In many ways Harry was just as obsessive as Voldemort. LPO



Solitaire - Feb 4, 2009 7:20 pm (#293 of 296)

Harry had no idea the logistics of such an undertaking.

In all fairness, Harry had really never had to think about protecting family members. His early life was chiefly concerned with protecting himself from the Dursleys. He did worry about Ginny--which is one reason he hesitated to get too close to her at first, I think--but he knew her parents would keep her safe.

Hermione and Ron had both grown up in homes with parents who had loved them and cared for them and had dreams and aspirations for their lives, so they knew about planning ahead. Also, they were leaving behind families they loved, and they wanted them to be safe. They knew they had Wizards to fool, so they'd better make sure things were just right.

The Dursleys were mainly waiting for the day when Harry would be out of their hair and they could commence pretending the last 17 years had been a terrible nightmare. Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia had never loved him, or even liked him, and I doubt they even wanted the best for him. Dudley might have, at the end ... but I think Uncle Vernon is still pretty put out at having to go into hiding. JM2K ...



Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 4, 2009 7:23 pm (#294 of 296)

I agree Soli, thats what makes it so sad. He never had a family to consider those things. LPO



Solitaire - Feb 4, 2009 7:25 pm (#295 of 296)

In the clinches, though, Harry has that natural "saving people thing" going, which shows us that he is concerned for those he loves and values ... and sometimes even those he doesn't even know. Had he lived a more normal life, he may have grown up more of a planner. Once he entered the Wizarding World, though, life came at him pretty fast. He seemed to spend more time reacting than planning. Fortunately, though, Ron and Hermione kind of fill in that gap.

Edited



me and my shadow 813 - Feb 6, 2009 10:08 pm (#296 of 296)

He seemed to spend more time reacting than planning. Fortunately, though, Ron and Hermione kind of fill in that gap.

Isn't it amazing how well they complete eachother? I am in awe of JKR's ability to show us the archetypes of personality, magnified just enough so as to expose their nature -- and humour!

Harry definitely came from the position of survival for himself rather than having to protect others. Despite this predisposed environment or condition, he quickly rises to the occasion thanks to Ron's steadfastness and basically nurturing comfort, and Hermione's - well, encyclopedic knowledge, and ability to 'pull in the reigns' on Harry's impulsive nature / Ron's inability to not support Harry's decisions. Okay, enough gushing.

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