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Re: Sirius Black
Mona Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:21 am
[b]
Last edited by Mona on Mon May 09, 2011 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total
Mona- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 61
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Posts 1571 to 1650
Mona Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:24 am
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 14, 2007 6:32 am (#1571 of 1982)
He offered to be the Secret Keeper in the first place, not after they'd already started Fidelius.--wynnleaf
By what was said in PoA, Dumbledore recommended the Fidelius Charm, then after he was told by the Potters that they were going to use Sirius as Secret keeper, Dumbledore offered his services instead.
The switch to Peter was a last minute thing. The Potters didn't go into the meeting with Dumbledore with the thought that they were going into hiding with Pettigrew as their Secret Keeper.
I find it ironic because if they had all just gone along with the first plan instead of second guessing it then the Potters would have been safe. Sirius really would have been the best Secret Keeper.
wynnleaf - Jul 14, 2007 6:51 am (#1572 of 1982)
By what was said in PoA, Dumbledore recommended the Fidelius Charm, then after he was told by the Potters that they were going to use Sirius as Secret keeper, Dumbledore offered his services instead. (Mrs Brisbee)
Yes, I think that's correct. I thought you meant (earlier) that they'd already done the Fidelius Charm when DD offered his services.
I find it ironic because if they had all just gone along with the first plan instead of second guessing it then the Potters would have been safe. Sirius really would have been the best Secret Keeper. (Mrs Brisbee)
Yes, I agree. The situation brings out Sirius' strengths and weaknesses. His strengths of bravery and commitment would have made him the right secret keeper, as well as his power as a wizard would have made him hard for him to be captured and forced to talk. But his weakness of rash decisions made him too clever by half in this situation and thus the choice to use Peter.
Padfoot - Jul 14, 2007 7:48 am (#1573 of 1982)
Can someone tell me anythin about sirius's animagus form, if he chose it or not?
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 14, 2007 8:12 am (#1574 of 1982)
Animagus can't pick their form. Unfortunately, I can't remember where to find the quote where Rowling answered this question in one of her interviews. She said something like they could spend years trying to learn to be an Animagus, only to turn into something stupid like a dung beetle.
Joanna Lupin - Jul 14, 2007 8:13 am (#1575 of 1982)
I don't think you can choose it, much like you can't choose your Patronus form.
Choices - Jul 14, 2007 10:24 am (#1576 of 1982)
The Lexicon has lots of interesting information on Animagi, including the quote from JKR. It's under Spells - animagus.
Hagsquid - Jul 16, 2007 4:20 am (#1577 of 1982)
I don't think you can choose it, much like you can't choose your Patronus form.
This being true... I wonder if it's possible for your animagi form to change like your patronus can. ^^
Padfoot - Jul 16, 2007 6:31 am (#1578 of 1982)
It can, your patronous can change form by a deep emotional impact, in HBP tonk's patronous changed into a four legged, hairy creature because people thought that she was in love with Sirius when he had died BUT it changed into Remus Lupin's werewolf form
Hagsquid - Jul 16, 2007 6:35 am (#1579 of 1982)
okay. . .
I think you need to read my post again and pay special attention to the "animagi" bit.
Denise P. - Jul 16, 2007 6:38 am (#1580 of 1982)
Please take any discussion of animagi or patronus to the appropriate thread. This is to discuss Sirius.
Joanna Lupin - Jul 16, 2007 6:38 am (#1581 of 1982)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 16, 2007 6:53 am
I don't think your Animagus form can change, but who knows?
I asked that this discussion be taken to the appropriate thread. If there is not a thread for Animagi, it can be easily made. This thread is to discuss Sirius Black Denise P.
NickyJean01 - Jul 28, 2007 12:02 pm (#1582 of 1982)
Two questions: First I was wondering were Sirus parents 2nd cousin's? I'm not sure if it was asked before but I was reading the Black family tree and wondering if I misread it.
Second question, The reason I was reading the family tree, with the death of Sirus is this the end of the House of Black, I couldn't really find any other 'male' Blacks that were still alive.
Thnx for your help.
Steve Newton - Jul 28, 2007 2:05 pm (#1583 of 1982)
I gathered from the start of HBP that this was the end of the House of Black or Harry would not have gotten the house or the services of Kreacher.
Choices - Jul 28, 2007 2:21 pm (#1584 of 1982)
OotP - Chapter: The Lost Prophesy
Phineas speaking - "Am I to understand," said Phineas Nigellus slowly from Harry's left, "that my great-great grandson---the last of the Blacks---is dead?"
"Yes, Phineas," said Dumbledore.
Accio Sirius - Aug 1, 2007 6:37 am (#1585 of 1982)
After getting a brief glimpse of Sirius' room and childhood in DH, it made me realize that up to that point, I assumed his parents and brother treated Sirius physically badly as well as mentally--rather like how the Dursely's treated Harry. Sirius talks about how his mother didn't have a heart, etc. and certainly her choices, beliefs and tastes were awful. But after reading about his room (his was a little bigger than Regulus', he had all of the trappings of a well cared for son), it just surprised me. Not that love is shown only through material things(I'm sure his mother was not a warm person)--but I guess I though he would have a spot in the basement or a cupboard under the stairs. I don't know--did that surprise anyone else? I thought he would be more oppressed than that--of course, it was noted that Sirius made sure nobody could take down his posters and such. Kreacher keeps saying how Sirius broke his mistresses heart, so I guess she really did love him in her own horrible way. I just never really never considered that before.
It's kind of like trying to imagine how Nacissa would react if Draco had become friends with Harry early on.
Anna L. Black - Aug 3, 2007 11:31 am (#1586 of 1982)
Well, as Sirius was the older son, he was supposed to be the heir to this "respectable" family, and continue the line by marrying a pure-blood girl, etc. So it's easy for me to believe that for the first years of his life, he's been getting good treatment, even if only in the physical sense (not love or anything like it, god forbid!) I'm guessing the disappointment started to show around the time he went to Hogwarts, and then the size of the rooms didn't really matter, because the boys weren't there most of the year. Of course, I'm sure that on their vacations, Regulus was spoiled just like Dudley and Malfoy, while Sirius wasn't treated that good at all. And it was probably then that he covered his room with all those posters.
wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2007 5:13 am (#1587 of 1982)
Do we have any evidence that the boys were spoiled? Certainly they were brought up to be accepting of Dark Magic, but that has nothing necessarily to do with being spoiled. Regulas' decision, made for Kreacher's sake, doesn't sound spoiled at all to me.
Anna L. Black - Aug 4, 2007 7:32 am (#1588 of 1982)
"Do we have any evidence that the boys were spoiled?"
Hmm, actually, we probably don't. Or at least, I just looked for such evidence and couldn't find it. I guess it was my own strech of imagination, exploring on the fact that "Regulus was favored by his parents because he shared their pureblood prejudices" (That's a quote from the Lexicon).
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 5, 2007 11:09 pm (#1589 of 1982)
Along the lines of what Anna said, Sirius was first born. At birth or soon there after he got the "young master's" room. Regulus got the "other" as the second born.
I would say that Sirius had his doubts or showed signs of not towing the family line even before he got to Hogwarts. When we meet young Sirius on his first ride to Hogwarts, he already shows a certain disdain for Slytherin. He admits that his whole family were in Slytherin but he quickly asks James what house he would go into, given a choice.
The muggle poster posters, I would venture Sirius obtained when Sirius was a bit older. Even in the muggle world, I don't believe young boys get bikini clad girls. Once Sirius placed those posters up, I am sure no wanted to go in, much less have that room.
Puck - Aug 6, 2007 6:26 am (#1590 of 1982)
Sirus' family were dark wizards, yes, but we have seen with the Malfoy's even Dark wizards love their families. Screaming about Mudbloods and Bloodtraitirs doesn't necessarily mean Mrs. Black wasn't warm to her sons. A rift surely developed when Sirius chose the other side. I never expected him to be living at home as poorly as Harry had at the Dursely's.
It's Kreacher's treatment that gets me. Harry is certainly not a Dark wizard, but Kreacher was nice to him when treated nicely. That Kreacher was fond only o Regulas tells us that Sirius was never very nice to him. Who said "if you want the true measure of a man, don't look at how he treats his equals, but his inferiors?"
megfox* - Aug 6, 2007 7:16 am (#1591 of 1982)
I think that Kreacher represented the dark side of Sirius' family, and that's why Sirius couldn't stand him. The nature of a house elf is to be loyal to it's family, and for Kreacher, that meant to be loyal to Miss Cissy, and Miss Bella, and Master Regulus, and Mistress Black - all of whom Sirius didn't get along with. I think that Sirius saw Kreacher as an extension of them, and knowing that he could get away with treating him poorly, did so in retaliation against his family. I also think that the particular position/stereotyping of house elves in the WW wasn't something that Sirius took into consideration (much like Ron) - Kreacher was a piece of furniture to him. I am not saying that any of this is right, I am just saying. Too bad he wasn't nice to Kreacher - we don't know for sure that Kreacher would have cared about his personal views on Slytherin House, or the Black family tree, or the affinity for the Dark Arts, as long as he had been nice to him.
Elaine2005 - Aug 7, 2007 10:42 pm (#1592 of 1982)
I have a question about Sirius. Why did he have to die? JK Rowling talked about in different interviews that he needed to die. So I thought that he would have more importance in the last book. I thought it was great that Harry got to see him and talk to him for a last time, but Sirius was not the only one that he got to see for a last time.
Now that I ask this question, I can think of some reasons why he needed to die. One reason would be Kreacher. As long as Sirius was alive, there was no way that Harry would ever have a good relationship with him. That relationship ended up being important.
Are there other reasons that Sirius had to die?
Accio Sirius - Aug 8, 2007 4:37 am (#1593 of 1982)
Megfox, I agree. Kreacher was part of Sirius' family, therefore also part of all of the rejection and ill-will that Sirius came to associate with his family. Like any child, even knowing that his parent's beliefs were wrong, it had to be tough to face their rejection. Granted,he rejected them too, but I think I underestimated the cost to his personal growth. It would certainly help explain his aloof or arrogant personality--that would be a common ego defense mechanism--reject people first before they have a chance to reject you.
I think Hermonie's comment about Sirius and Kreacher was Hermoine trying to make her point at any cost. Hermoine is quite sensitive about house elves and she was trying to drive home her point home to Harry and she knew it would sting. Yes, Sirius treated Kreacher badly and that was wrong and short sighted and all the things that make Sirius so infuriating. But, I don't believe at all that he ever treated Kreacher that way simply because he was a house elf. If anything, Sirius was probably more like Ron in that house elves were common in the wizarding world and it was something that was just accepted (that people had them, not that they treated them so horridly)--not that indifference is okay, but I wouldn't call it bigotry.
Elaine, Sirius and all of the father figures would have tried to save Harry from his fate or protect him too much. Harry had learn the truth about so many things and face his fate on his own. Even knowing it was for the greater good, how many parents or God parents could actually sacrifice someone they love? Harry had to be mature enough to make these big decisions (to face death, to return from King's Cross) and one might argue that you only develop that kind of maturity by facing adversity in life. I think Draco is sort of the anti-Harry in that he was spoiled all his life and things have generally gone his way, so when it comes to making a stand or show some backbone, he doesn't do it. He lacks the maturity and personal fortitude. That's my take on it anyway!
Elaine2005 - Aug 8, 2007 9:26 am (#1594 of 1982)
Good point about Sirius wanting to protect Harry from his fate. Of course, Sirius never learned in life what Harry ultimately needed to do, but he would likely have tried to stop it if he did know. Lupin never knew exactly what Harry needed to do either though, and he didn't stop him from doing what he needed to do. But Sirius is definitely a more forceful personality. I can sort of see why he needed to die, but I can't quite put it in words yet.
Choices - Aug 8, 2007 11:00 am (#1595 of 1982)
I think JKR needed to take away Harry's mentors - his crutches. Harry had to eventually stand on his own two feet and think for himself. JKR had to get him to the point where he had no one to rely on but himself. Yes, he had Ron and Hermione, but they are contemporaries, not older authority figures. In DH, JKR takes Harry away from all the "grown-ups". It's just him, Ron and Hermione, out in the woods for weeks and months at a time. He has to learn to think things out for himself - without help from Sirius, Dumbledore, Lupin, etc. He learned what he could from his mentors, and now it is time to stand alone.
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 8, 2007 11:04 pm (#1596 of 1982)
Are there other reasons that Sirius had to die?
Because Harry had to be stripped, parents, substitutes, DD, Sirius, friend Hedwig, even his wand, he was left totally exposed, no adult to rely on.
Because Sirius hated Regulus's choice of purebloodness. Still Regulus loves Kreacher enough to die for him. Sirius saw Kreacher only as a creature upholding what he rejected. Sirius nevergave Kreacher consideration as a being.
As I read the book, I think I had at least one other reason if I remember it, I'll post it.
I loved Sirius because he was so simple, right is right and wrong is wrong. He didn't have much gray areas, complexity.
Remi - Aug 9, 2007 6:06 pm (#1597 of 1982)
In addition to what you listed, Mrs, Sirius, I thought one of the reasons Sirius had to die is one of the reasons that Lupin had to die too: So that the 3 "good" Marauders could reunite in the end (with Lily) and accompany Harry into The Forest Again. To me, James, Sirius & Lupin's friendship mirrored Harry, Ron & Hermione's. Seeing that death doesn't end friendships must've meant a lot to Harry.
It still $#@!& that they had to die.
Mediwitch - Aug 9, 2007 7:33 pm (#1598 of 1982)
In addition to the very important reasons already mentioned, if Sirius hadn't died, Harry wouldn't have inherited 12 GP (a place to hide) and Kreacher (so he couldn't have ordered Kreacher to tell him about Regulus and the locket).
Accio Sirius - Aug 13, 2007 1:31 pm (#1599 of 1982)
Has JKR said anywhere yet what became of 12GP or of Kreacher? Would Harry and Ginny live there?
Luna Logic - Aug 13, 2007 2:28 pm (#1600 of 1982)
No, nothing has come yet about places where HP people are living after the war.
mona amon - Aug 13, 2007 6:47 pm (#1601 of 1982)
Looks like poor Sirius is the only one who does not get a kid named after him. James, Lily, Lupin, Severus, Dumbledore all do. I assume Harry's first son's name was James Harry Potter. Or maybe it was James Harry Sirius Potter?
Allison R - Aug 13, 2007 6:48 pm (#1602 of 1982)
mona amon-- maybe James Sirius Potter?
mona amon - Aug 13, 2007 7:08 pm (#1603 of 1982)
Allison, there seems to be a tradition of naming the first son after the father. For example, Harry James Potter, Teddy Remus Lupin. So I assumed Harry's first son would have his name.
Allison R - Aug 13, 2007 7:49 pm (#1604 of 1982)
you're right, mona amon-- I hadn't noticed that trend. Well spotted!
TomProffitt - Aug 13, 2007 11:14 pm (#1605 of 1982)
Come on, it would have been James Ronald and Lily Hermione. Nope, Sirius loses out.
Xenophilius - Aug 14, 2007 4:10 am (#1606 of 1982)
I am holding out for James Arthur and Lily Molly.
Sticky Glue - Aug 16, 2007 7:13 pm (#1607 of 1982)
I'm hoping it's James Sirius Potter (feels right to me)
Xenophilius - Aug 16, 2007 7:25 pm (#1608 of 1982)
I guess Harry and Ginny had better get busy. The need more kids because they have more people they need to honor.
Potteraholic - Aug 16, 2007 7:44 pm (#1609 of 1982)
Xenophilius, I guess Harry and Ginny had better get busy. The need more kids because they have more people they need to honor. Hey, watch it!
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 19, 2007 10:47 pm (#1610 of 1982)
Well, following Spanish custom, which also may be used in the wizarding world, witness, Dumbledore, it could be
"James Harry Sirius Ronald Potter y Weasley"
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 20, 2007 10:03 pm (#1611 of 1982)
The Spanish translation of that would be a mouthful.
Accio Sirius - Aug 30, 2007 12:54 pm (#1612 of 1982)
Well, he may not have child named after him in the books, but we named our flaming red beta fish Sirius Red!
maria cloos - Sep 4, 2007 12:58 pm (#1613 of 1982)
Jo said that it was Albus Severus Sirius Potter. I thought that this was almost insulting to both Severus' and Sirius' memories! Then I thought about it. I could just see Harry trying to "force them to make up." I think that James Harry Sirius Potter would have been much better, but what do I know!
Aside- Could you imagine in the afterlife the looks on Sirius' and Severus' faces when they hear the name of Harry's second son? Lol...I just can't stop laughing.
wynnleaf - Sep 4, 2007 1:54 pm (#1614 of 1982)
When and where did JKR say that?? Citation? Just curious. I haven't seen that quote.
haymoni - Sep 5, 2007 6:41 pm (#1615 of 1982)
I thought it was Albus Severus Potter.
maria cloos - Sep 13, 2007 11:08 am (#1616 of 1982)
I don't know, but I think it was discussed on one of the podcasts that claimed they had heard that from her. I don't remember seeing it in the webchat, so who knows. I just thought it was amusing.
Orion - Sep 19, 2007 1:43 pm (#1617 of 1982)
Edited by Sep 19, 2007 1:48 pm
As you are currently speculating on names, why does Phineas think that the house of Black has died out? ("...the last of the Blacks is dead.") Narcissa Black had Draco, Andromeda Black had Tonks and Tonks had Teddy. Of course, Draco has the surname Malfoy, but he could always opt for "Black" if he thought the the name should survive, as it is old and traditional. The surname seems to be handed down on the male side in wizarding families, but nevertheless the dynasty lives on. Draco is a Black, just like the child that Sirius never had the chance to have.
Choices - Sep 19, 2007 4:27 pm (#1618 of 1982)
I think Phineas was referring to the fact that there was no longer a male from the Black family with the last name of Black.
Mrs. Sirius - Sep 19, 2007 9:09 pm (#1619 of 1982)
And so the family name, Black, joins that list of family surnames, Gaunt, Perevell, Slytherin, that no longer survives on the male line.
Steve Newton - Sep 20, 2007 6:40 am (#1620 of 1982)
Also Crouch. Not sure about the Crabbes.
Orion - Sep 20, 2007 12:59 pm (#1621 of 1982)
Yes, it's exactly what irks me, that a name only survives on the male side. As if the girls don't count, have no value. That's why I thought Draco could well switch to "Black" if he felt sorry that the name vanishes. Or Narcissa could switch to her maiden name and Draco could follow. It would show that an old family doesn't "die" only because the only members who get children are women. It seems so unfair. A family surely only "dies" if nobody at all has children any more?
I've read a lot of the posts of this gargantuan thread and lots of people seem to like OOP. Why? I hate this book. I forced myself to read it again to prepare for the film, but I read everything before Sirius' death and everything after, leaving a gap of about 40 pages. Then I managed to narrow the gap down to only ten pages or so, but I won't read them, never. I tried to because I told myself not to be such a wimp, but I couldn't. I sort of froze up when I tried to turn the pages. The worst part of it is Kreacher's betrayal, and how eveybody seems to gang up on Sirius to make sure he really, really dies. The message is a horrible one: It says "if you really, really care for someone, and you want to make sure the person survives, and you need the person so badly, then it's absolutely sure the person is gonna die and everything you do is doomed and will only hasten the person's death." Many people have said that they always knew Sirius had to die, and that was the worst part. He had absolutely no chance from the beginning. It's like in Hitchcock's "Vertigo" with James Stewart, where he meets the woman who reminds him of his lost love (and she really is, but we only find out in the end), and what happens? She dies.
JKR betrays the trust of her readers that, in a book designed first and foremost for children, the main characters are essentially safe. It started with Cedric Diggory, but we weren't supposed to care for him so much because we hardly knew him. But then, when Sirius died, the story was, in fact, over for me. This couldn't be repaired.
Joanna Lupin - Sep 20, 2007 1:11 pm (#1622 of 1982)
But that's just silly. Have you seen a war where nobody decent dies? Or where people do not suffer a loss?
Orion - Sep 20, 2007 1:29 pm (#1623 of 1982)
I didn't expect the story to grow to such huge proportions, and to get so bitterly serious. In a way I've started to like the first two books best, because they are overflowing with wild imagination and dry wit, and you aren't emotionally sandblasted all the time.
But it's only Sirius, I suppose. I have the weird feeling that people don't ADMIT how his death affects the story afterwards, but maybe I have serious paranoia... For me, it was like that: My interest in the HP story had ceased to exist after OOP, and I bought HBP only out of faithfulness. When I read it again, to prepare for the release of DH, I noticed that I had forgotten everything except the cave and DD's death, so I must have rushed through it the first time. I just couldn't be bothered to be bothered any more what happened in the story, because the damage of all damages had been done, and the rest wasn't so interesting any more. Only when I read HBP again I found out that it's really very good. I felt kind of relaxed reading it because Harry didn't have much to worry about. His greatest worry, the fear for Sirius, which had made him so vulnerable, had ceased to exist, and this gives him a whole new freedom and lets the storytelling expand and loosen up. I also hugely liked DH, because it was even looser, with great gaps where they sit around, for me, the highlights of the book. It wasn't the frantic to-the-second high-speed rush of PoA, and not the painful, slowly aggravating nightmare of OOP. I hated almost every single page of it.
wynnleaf - Sep 20, 2007 1:37 pm (#1624 of 1982)
Orion,
I was surprised at your post. When a writer creates a story, the object is not necessarily to show the characters having happy endings. Part of the point in developing Harry's love for Sirius was to make it a real crisis point for Harry when he dies. Harry never knew his parents, so while he feels their loss in the sense that he never knew them, he doesn't really grieve for them as he would if he knew and loved them. But JKR needed Harry to confront some major emotional losses, so that meant that people he cared about would have to die. In Sirius' case, she also wanted it to be a death that would create guilt for Harry -- a sense that his own choices led to Sirius' death.
Yes, it all seems rather ruthless. Create a character that your protagonist and your readers will love (well, most of them anyway), and then kill him off. What's the point? The point *is* the loss and the way it affects Harry.
JKR has said that the series is very much about death, what it means, and how we deal with it. Well, without deaths that we and Harry really care about, that theme can't play out in the strength that it takes to send the messages home.
The message is a horrible one: It says "if you really, really care for someone, and you want to make sure the person survives, and you need the person so badly, then it's absolutely sure the person is gonna die and everything you do is doomed and will only hasten the person's death." (Orion)
Well, one thing is for certain. Everyone that I love and care about will die. Many of them will, and have already, died before me. And for the most part it may seem pointless. Personally, I don't believe it is, but it may indeed appear that way.
Orion - Sep 20, 2007 1:52 pm (#1625 of 1982)
Hello Wynnleaf, thanks for your post. When I read it, I found out that I never saw Harry as the central character of the story, and probably the other people on the forum have a different view on that matter. You write "Yes, it all seems rather ruthless. Create a character that your protagonist and your readers will love (well, most of them anyway), and then kill him off. What's the point? The point *is* the loss and the way it affects Harry." That is the difference between normal, sane forum members and me: They know that the story is about Harry, and his personal growth and coming of age. For me, the story began "in earnest" with PoA and the introduction of gentle Remus Lupin, and, to a lesser extent, Sirius who had been cheated out of his life. Harry stopped being the focus then. Obviously, only for me...
wynnleaf - Sep 20, 2007 1:56 pm (#1626 of 1982)
Oh, I understand that one! I'm sure everyone knows that I think Snape is just as important as Harry!
Joanna Lupin - Sep 20, 2007 2:10 pm (#1627 of 1982)
Probably it's just the matter of taste, but I loved the three last books and it seemed to me that with each one JKR becomes a better writer. It irks me terribly when people say that OOTP was too long, because it was nothing of the sort to me. I understand why Sirius's death upset you. I was anguished for days when I read it, but that is the magic of HP in my opinion, that you can be emotionally shaken by a death of a fictional characters as if they were your family/friends. The first two books weren't so packed emotionally, obviously, because Harry was young and not yet mature enough to feel such complex things.
Orion - Sep 21, 2007 11:07 am (#1628 of 1982)
Edited by Sep 21, 2007 11:08 am
Not only upset... it's more that I feel that the word "SIRIUS" is written in tree-high letters over the last two books and every reader acts as if they weren't there to pretend that they are cool. Ramble ramble ramble...
I've thought it over. No, the first two aren't my favourites. But they are vastly underrated, especially the second one, which is, really, brilliant. But it's all about children. In PoA, people of my age turn up, in a great number and with fascinating stories. But how many of them survive all seven of the books? Snape and the Marauders, people I can relate to, all die. The rest of the thirtysomethings and fortysomethings are either DEs, that is, fleeing or already imprisoned or already dead, or insignificant peripheral figures like eg Rosmerta. The only ones who survive, are the bloody Malfoys, of all people. They would probably survive a nuclear war, cockroaches that they are. But they are sitting completely isolated. A whole generation is put firmly into place: Die, or go away. Only the teenagers and the really old and venerable (some of them already deceased and only present as portraits) are important in the end. I mean, JKR herself belongs to this generation, what does she want?
Joanna Lupin - Sep 21, 2007 1:30 pm (#1629 of 1982)
What about Kingsley and Mr. Weasley? LOL
haymoni - Sep 21, 2007 7:20 pm (#1630 of 1982)
JKR was pretty clear in what she wanted - she wanted Harry to go on alone.
Sirius wouldn't have stood for standing in the background. He would have tried to help Harry just like Lupin did. I don't think Harry would have been able to beat Sirius down like he did Remus - I don't think he would have wanted to.
He would have relied on Sirius and that was just not in JKR's cards.
I liked Sirius because he truly was "the height of cool" and he was a fun character. I even liked the snide remarks and his moodiness. The fact that he was pretty good looking certainly didn't hurt.
But again - it's not my book!
Orion - Sep 23, 2007 1:43 am (#1631 of 1982)
Oh Joanna, Molly is too old and Kingsley isn't such a central character. You must come up with some better suggestions to convince me! Haymoni, I agree with your post. Harry is on some sort of old-fashioned hero quest and must face his destiny alone in order to grow up, but I would have honestly expected the plotline to be more original than that. What's wrong with relying on somebody? If every generation would have to walk out of the way of the next one, we would be a lot more short-lived.
And isn't it weird how much we are influenced by a description of the characters? Sirius is described as good-looking, and it's not as if we would see him, but immediately we are biased in favour of him. Weird. Just look on the Narcissa thread to watch how positive the reactions to this unendurable bleached pureblood shrapnel are.
NFla Barbara - Sep 23, 2007 2:07 pm (#1632 of 1982)
unendurable bleached pureblood shrapnel
LOL, Orion. You have a great way with words.
I really have never thought about Sirius's looks, though. What counted the most for me was that he escaped to catch Peter and spent the rest of his life trying, in different ways, to protect Harry and give him a family.
kingdolohov - Sep 23, 2007 8:18 pm (#1633 of 1982)
You make a fair point about the good adults in the series. Here are the members of the Order according to the Lexicon (not edited since DH):
Sirius Black - kicked it
Dedalus Diggle - strange, excitable man probably traumatized by his time with the Dursleys
Elphias Doge - very old man that turned out to know little about his best friend
Albus Dumbledore - dead
Abeforth Dumbledore - old and a weirdo
Arabella Figg - a Squib obsessed with cats
Mundungus Fletcher - a dirty criminal
Rubeus Hagrid - the man tried to keep a dragon as a pet, enough said
Hestia Jones - stuck with the Dursleys for a year
Remus Lupin - kicked it after a miserable life
Minerva McGonagall - actually impressive
Mad-Eye Moody - kicked it and got his eye stolen
Sturgis Podmore - arrested and never heard from again
Kingsley Shacklebolt - he actually gets a good fate!
Severus Snape - killed by a snake after a miserable life
Nymphadora Tonks - Killed by her nutjob aunt
Emmeline Vance - kicked it
Arthur Weasley - only alive because Rowling didn't have the heart to kill him, even his kids call him a nutter sometimes
Bill Weasley - badly scarred
Charlie Weasley - don't really know anything about him
Molly Weasley - weepy woman who somehow managed to kill the second most powerful magical person alive at the time
Yes, I can see how it's hard to find someone that you can or would even want to relate to.
Orion - Sep 24, 2007 1:59 am (#1634 of 1982)
Oh dear, I knew the line-up of the Order was pathetic but not that pathetic! What is JKR trying to tell us?
NFla Barbara - Sep 24, 2007 5:57 am (#1635 of 1982)
Maybe this:
Sirius Black - died fighting alongside Harry for the greater good
Dedalus Diggle - strange, excitable man who will have great stories about those nutty Dursleys for the rest of his life
Elphias Doge - very old man who saw only the best in his best friend
Albus Dumbledore - dead for the greater good
Abeforth Dumbledore - unencumbered by social convention, and very much alive
Arabella Figg - a Squib obsessed with cats (OK)
Mundungus Fletcher - a dirty criminal (I have nothing good to say about him; I never "got" him as part of the Order)
Rubeus Hagrid - embodied the value of inclusiveness that DD thought would be essential for the survival of the WW
Hestia Jones - maybe she was able to tell Dudders a thing or two about his "freak" cousin
Remus Lupin - kicked it fighting for the greater good, but first found love & acceptance, in the process confronting his own weaknesses (with a little push from Harry)
Minerva McGonagall - consistently impressive
Mad-Eye Moody - died saving Harry
Sturgis Podmore - arrested and never heard from again (OK)
Kingsley Shacklebolt - he actually gets a good fate! (But he's not the only one!)
Severus Snape - killed by a snake after a miserable life (OK here, but at least he had that last chance to accomplish his mission by getting his memories to Harry)
Nymphadora Tonks - died with her wand out, fighting for the right side
Emmeline Vance - killed
Arthur Weasley - so what if he's a bit nutty? people like Arthur are the only hope for the WW to live peaceably in the world
Bill Weasley - gorgeous wife and, I imagine, a good job -- Victoire is not wearing hand-me-downs
Charlie Weasley - kept his ponytail and is still the coolest Weasley
Molly Weasley - having shown how powerful she was all along, was perfectly happy to go back to the peace and quiet of the Burrow and wait for the grandchildren to start arriving
Lots of death, in wartime, but the ones who are left all seem to have something to be happy about.
It is too bad for Harry that JKR couldn't leave him a single "parental" figure, but that's her literary call. He does learn to rely on others -- although there are some things he can only do himself, he learns that he will not succeed if he tries to do everything by himself. Sirius is critical because he gives Harry hope, for the first time, that there is some kind of good life waiting for him beyond Hogwarts. And at least with Sirius we get a glimpse "beyond the veil" when Harry uses the Resurrection Stone, so our final picture of him is one of, dare I say, contentment and anticipation.
kingdolohov - Sep 24, 2007 6:33 am (#1636 of 1982)
I know I took the more negative approach there, not really discussing personality. These are mostly good people (not Dung), but it does show Orion is right about not many relatable adults that survive. Most of the good adults die, are too old to relate to, are too young to relate to, are too minor, or have a giant for a brother. Personality wise, there are a lot of characters that one can identify with (hopefully), but on the surface it's not so easy.
Snuffles - Sep 24, 2007 6:41 am (#1637 of 1982)
I like that list Barbara.
I feel a bit nitpicky here, but Bill was the cool one with the ponytail not Charlie.
Slinks back off again........
Chemyst - Sep 24, 2007 7:17 am (#1638 of 1982)
I like your "sunnyside" outlook, Barbara.
I wouldn't change much, just add a smidgen -
Mad-Eye Moody died as the adventurer he was, and only after hundreds of successes.
Sturgis Podmore did survive fighting the first time around!
Emmeline Vance was also one of the few surviving members of the original Order of the Phoenix before her murder.
Charlie had a 'weather-beaten face.' He was a Quidditch Captain and dragon keeper who also survives with out injury– all of which are also very cool accomplisments.
NFla Barbara - Sep 24, 2007 3:31 pm (#1639 of 1982)
So sorry, again! First I forget Percy and now I'm mixing up Charlie and Bill. I guess a ponytail would not be prudent around fire-breathing dragons. Charlie ended up being more peripheral than I was hoping he'd be.
But back to Sirius...
Luna Logic - Sep 25, 2007 12:38 am (#1640 of 1982)
Before going back to Sirius I would add that Mr Weasley is a parental figure when we look carefully to the dialogs between him and Molly or between him and Harry. He is "nutty" only in apparence, IMO.
About Sirius, I have two questions :
-What became of Sirius's house, the one he bought with uncle Alphard's inheritance?
-Was Lily's letter left in that house all the time while Sirius was in Azkaban?
Chemyst - Sep 27, 2007 7:52 am (#1641 of 1982)
-Was Lily's letter left in that house all the time while Sirius was in Azkaban?
It seems that way. Using dates from the Lexicon, Sirius's mother dies in 1985. The letter would have been written in the fall of 1981; but Sirius was not living at 12 GP at that time. Sirius was sent to Azkaban in late 1981. The most logical explanation is that his personal effects were sent to 12 GP after he was sentenced and were stored in his room until he came to live there in OP. Mother Wallburga seems to have kept both her sons' rooms pretty much as they were when they still lived there.
-What became of Sirius's house, the one he bought with uncle Alphard's inheritance?
I have no idea what happened to the house bought from Uncle Alphard's gold, but Sirius would have needed money to support his time on the run, (he was living in a cave and begging for chicken bones by the end of GF!) Either he sold it to support himself during PA and his escape to the tropics and then used all the money in a few months, or he left the tropics too quickly to liquidate his assets there and buy survival food, or JKR just left another hole in the story. We know he did some banking while in hiding in PA because Crookshanks helped make the withdrawal for the broom. By GF, DD could have helped arrange finances for they were in contact.
Accio Sirius - Sep 27, 2007 5:27 pm (#1642 of 1982)
I wonder if Harry and Ginny eventually moved into Grimmauld Place. It was Harry's after all and with proper redecoration, it could be made into a lovely home I'm sure. I would imagine Harry would like being close to Sirius' memory and it did have a history for Ginny and the Order.
Orion - Sep 28, 2007 7:00 am (#1643 of 1982)
I hope that, too! They should have kept the silver and sold all the dark magic stuff to George.
Choices - Sep 28, 2007 9:09 am (#1644 of 1982)
I was looking up something the other day and found something I thought was interesting. In DH we learn about Gamp's Elemental Law of Transfiguration. A woman by the name of Hesper Gamp (1877 - 1952) was married to Sirius Black, the oldest son of Phineas Nigellus Black. How she is related to the Gamp of Gamp's Law I don't know, but since the name is the same it seems likely that they are related.
PeskyPixie - Sep 28, 2007 9:45 am (#1645 of 1982)
Well, all old pure-blood families are related, aren't they?
Either that or Gamp was a very common surname back in the day.
haymoni - Sep 29, 2007 4:15 am (#1646 of 1982)
"My name is Hester...Hester Ga-amp."
Sorry..."Forrest Gump" has been running on the cable channels a lot lately.
Choices - Sep 29, 2007 11:00 am (#1647 of 1982)
LOL Forrest Gump crossed my mind also, Haymoni.
PeskyPixie - Sep 29, 2007 1:29 pm (#1648 of 1982)
'My name's Hesper Gamp ... people call me Hesper Gamp.'
haymoni - Sep 30, 2007 3:21 pm (#1649 of 1982)
Again...my apologies.
maria cloos - Oct 1, 2007 2:11 pm (#1650 of 1982)
Back on the Sirius thing, I feel your pain, Orion. I honestly do. Jo had said that there was a specific reason that Sirius died at the veil and most of us felt that (based on his name as well) he would play a much more significant part. I did love his interaction with Harry in the Forbidden Forest though, small as it was.
He offered to be the Secret Keeper in the first place, not after they'd already started Fidelius.--wynnleaf
By what was said in PoA, Dumbledore recommended the Fidelius Charm, then after he was told by the Potters that they were going to use Sirius as Secret keeper, Dumbledore offered his services instead.
The switch to Peter was a last minute thing. The Potters didn't go into the meeting with Dumbledore with the thought that they were going into hiding with Pettigrew as their Secret Keeper.
I find it ironic because if they had all just gone along with the first plan instead of second guessing it then the Potters would have been safe. Sirius really would have been the best Secret Keeper.
wynnleaf - Jul 14, 2007 6:51 am (#1572 of 1982)
By what was said in PoA, Dumbledore recommended the Fidelius Charm, then after he was told by the Potters that they were going to use Sirius as Secret keeper, Dumbledore offered his services instead. (Mrs Brisbee)
Yes, I think that's correct. I thought you meant (earlier) that they'd already done the Fidelius Charm when DD offered his services.
I find it ironic because if they had all just gone along with the first plan instead of second guessing it then the Potters would have been safe. Sirius really would have been the best Secret Keeper. (Mrs Brisbee)
Yes, I agree. The situation brings out Sirius' strengths and weaknesses. His strengths of bravery and commitment would have made him the right secret keeper, as well as his power as a wizard would have made him hard for him to be captured and forced to talk. But his weakness of rash decisions made him too clever by half in this situation and thus the choice to use Peter.
Padfoot - Jul 14, 2007 7:48 am (#1573 of 1982)
Can someone tell me anythin about sirius's animagus form, if he chose it or not?
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 14, 2007 8:12 am (#1574 of 1982)
Animagus can't pick their form. Unfortunately, I can't remember where to find the quote where Rowling answered this question in one of her interviews. She said something like they could spend years trying to learn to be an Animagus, only to turn into something stupid like a dung beetle.
Joanna Lupin - Jul 14, 2007 8:13 am (#1575 of 1982)
I don't think you can choose it, much like you can't choose your Patronus form.
Choices - Jul 14, 2007 10:24 am (#1576 of 1982)
The Lexicon has lots of interesting information on Animagi, including the quote from JKR. It's under Spells - animagus.
Hagsquid - Jul 16, 2007 4:20 am (#1577 of 1982)
I don't think you can choose it, much like you can't choose your Patronus form.
This being true... I wonder if it's possible for your animagi form to change like your patronus can. ^^
Padfoot - Jul 16, 2007 6:31 am (#1578 of 1982)
It can, your patronous can change form by a deep emotional impact, in HBP tonk's patronous changed into a four legged, hairy creature because people thought that she was in love with Sirius when he had died BUT it changed into Remus Lupin's werewolf form
Hagsquid - Jul 16, 2007 6:35 am (#1579 of 1982)
okay. . .
I think you need to read my post again and pay special attention to the "animagi" bit.
Denise P. - Jul 16, 2007 6:38 am (#1580 of 1982)
Please take any discussion of animagi or patronus to the appropriate thread. This is to discuss Sirius.
Joanna Lupin - Jul 16, 2007 6:38 am (#1581 of 1982)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 16, 2007 6:53 am
I don't think your Animagus form can change, but who knows?
I asked that this discussion be taken to the appropriate thread. If there is not a thread for Animagi, it can be easily made. This thread is to discuss Sirius Black Denise P.
NickyJean01 - Jul 28, 2007 12:02 pm (#1582 of 1982)
Two questions: First I was wondering were Sirus parents 2nd cousin's? I'm not sure if it was asked before but I was reading the Black family tree and wondering if I misread it.
Second question, The reason I was reading the family tree, with the death of Sirus is this the end of the House of Black, I couldn't really find any other 'male' Blacks that were still alive.
Thnx for your help.
Steve Newton - Jul 28, 2007 2:05 pm (#1583 of 1982)
I gathered from the start of HBP that this was the end of the House of Black or Harry would not have gotten the house or the services of Kreacher.
Choices - Jul 28, 2007 2:21 pm (#1584 of 1982)
OotP - Chapter: The Lost Prophesy
Phineas speaking - "Am I to understand," said Phineas Nigellus slowly from Harry's left, "that my great-great grandson---the last of the Blacks---is dead?"
"Yes, Phineas," said Dumbledore.
Accio Sirius - Aug 1, 2007 6:37 am (#1585 of 1982)
After getting a brief glimpse of Sirius' room and childhood in DH, it made me realize that up to that point, I assumed his parents and brother treated Sirius physically badly as well as mentally--rather like how the Dursely's treated Harry. Sirius talks about how his mother didn't have a heart, etc. and certainly her choices, beliefs and tastes were awful. But after reading about his room (his was a little bigger than Regulus', he had all of the trappings of a well cared for son), it just surprised me. Not that love is shown only through material things(I'm sure his mother was not a warm person)--but I guess I though he would have a spot in the basement or a cupboard under the stairs. I don't know--did that surprise anyone else? I thought he would be more oppressed than that--of course, it was noted that Sirius made sure nobody could take down his posters and such. Kreacher keeps saying how Sirius broke his mistresses heart, so I guess she really did love him in her own horrible way. I just never really never considered that before.
It's kind of like trying to imagine how Nacissa would react if Draco had become friends with Harry early on.
Anna L. Black - Aug 3, 2007 11:31 am (#1586 of 1982)
Well, as Sirius was the older son, he was supposed to be the heir to this "respectable" family, and continue the line by marrying a pure-blood girl, etc. So it's easy for me to believe that for the first years of his life, he's been getting good treatment, even if only in the physical sense (not love or anything like it, god forbid!) I'm guessing the disappointment started to show around the time he went to Hogwarts, and then the size of the rooms didn't really matter, because the boys weren't there most of the year. Of course, I'm sure that on their vacations, Regulus was spoiled just like Dudley and Malfoy, while Sirius wasn't treated that good at all. And it was probably then that he covered his room with all those posters.
wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2007 5:13 am (#1587 of 1982)
Do we have any evidence that the boys were spoiled? Certainly they were brought up to be accepting of Dark Magic, but that has nothing necessarily to do with being spoiled. Regulas' decision, made for Kreacher's sake, doesn't sound spoiled at all to me.
Anna L. Black - Aug 4, 2007 7:32 am (#1588 of 1982)
"Do we have any evidence that the boys were spoiled?"
Hmm, actually, we probably don't. Or at least, I just looked for such evidence and couldn't find it. I guess it was my own strech of imagination, exploring on the fact that "Regulus was favored by his parents because he shared their pureblood prejudices" (That's a quote from the Lexicon).
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 5, 2007 11:09 pm (#1589 of 1982)
Along the lines of what Anna said, Sirius was first born. At birth or soon there after he got the "young master's" room. Regulus got the "other" as the second born.
I would say that Sirius had his doubts or showed signs of not towing the family line even before he got to Hogwarts. When we meet young Sirius on his first ride to Hogwarts, he already shows a certain disdain for Slytherin. He admits that his whole family were in Slytherin but he quickly asks James what house he would go into, given a choice.
The muggle poster posters, I would venture Sirius obtained when Sirius was a bit older. Even in the muggle world, I don't believe young boys get bikini clad girls. Once Sirius placed those posters up, I am sure no wanted to go in, much less have that room.
Puck - Aug 6, 2007 6:26 am (#1590 of 1982)
Sirus' family were dark wizards, yes, but we have seen with the Malfoy's even Dark wizards love their families. Screaming about Mudbloods and Bloodtraitirs doesn't necessarily mean Mrs. Black wasn't warm to her sons. A rift surely developed when Sirius chose the other side. I never expected him to be living at home as poorly as Harry had at the Dursely's.
It's Kreacher's treatment that gets me. Harry is certainly not a Dark wizard, but Kreacher was nice to him when treated nicely. That Kreacher was fond only o Regulas tells us that Sirius was never very nice to him. Who said "if you want the true measure of a man, don't look at how he treats his equals, but his inferiors?"
megfox* - Aug 6, 2007 7:16 am (#1591 of 1982)
I think that Kreacher represented the dark side of Sirius' family, and that's why Sirius couldn't stand him. The nature of a house elf is to be loyal to it's family, and for Kreacher, that meant to be loyal to Miss Cissy, and Miss Bella, and Master Regulus, and Mistress Black - all of whom Sirius didn't get along with. I think that Sirius saw Kreacher as an extension of them, and knowing that he could get away with treating him poorly, did so in retaliation against his family. I also think that the particular position/stereotyping of house elves in the WW wasn't something that Sirius took into consideration (much like Ron) - Kreacher was a piece of furniture to him. I am not saying that any of this is right, I am just saying. Too bad he wasn't nice to Kreacher - we don't know for sure that Kreacher would have cared about his personal views on Slytherin House, or the Black family tree, or the affinity for the Dark Arts, as long as he had been nice to him.
Elaine2005 - Aug 7, 2007 10:42 pm (#1592 of 1982)
I have a question about Sirius. Why did he have to die? JK Rowling talked about in different interviews that he needed to die. So I thought that he would have more importance in the last book. I thought it was great that Harry got to see him and talk to him for a last time, but Sirius was not the only one that he got to see for a last time.
Now that I ask this question, I can think of some reasons why he needed to die. One reason would be Kreacher. As long as Sirius was alive, there was no way that Harry would ever have a good relationship with him. That relationship ended up being important.
Are there other reasons that Sirius had to die?
Accio Sirius - Aug 8, 2007 4:37 am (#1593 of 1982)
Megfox, I agree. Kreacher was part of Sirius' family, therefore also part of all of the rejection and ill-will that Sirius came to associate with his family. Like any child, even knowing that his parent's beliefs were wrong, it had to be tough to face their rejection. Granted,he rejected them too, but I think I underestimated the cost to his personal growth. It would certainly help explain his aloof or arrogant personality--that would be a common ego defense mechanism--reject people first before they have a chance to reject you.
I think Hermonie's comment about Sirius and Kreacher was Hermoine trying to make her point at any cost. Hermoine is quite sensitive about house elves and she was trying to drive home her point home to Harry and she knew it would sting. Yes, Sirius treated Kreacher badly and that was wrong and short sighted and all the things that make Sirius so infuriating. But, I don't believe at all that he ever treated Kreacher that way simply because he was a house elf. If anything, Sirius was probably more like Ron in that house elves were common in the wizarding world and it was something that was just accepted (that people had them, not that they treated them so horridly)--not that indifference is okay, but I wouldn't call it bigotry.
Elaine, Sirius and all of the father figures would have tried to save Harry from his fate or protect him too much. Harry had learn the truth about so many things and face his fate on his own. Even knowing it was for the greater good, how many parents or God parents could actually sacrifice someone they love? Harry had to be mature enough to make these big decisions (to face death, to return from King's Cross) and one might argue that you only develop that kind of maturity by facing adversity in life. I think Draco is sort of the anti-Harry in that he was spoiled all his life and things have generally gone his way, so when it comes to making a stand or show some backbone, he doesn't do it. He lacks the maturity and personal fortitude. That's my take on it anyway!
Elaine2005 - Aug 8, 2007 9:26 am (#1594 of 1982)
Good point about Sirius wanting to protect Harry from his fate. Of course, Sirius never learned in life what Harry ultimately needed to do, but he would likely have tried to stop it if he did know. Lupin never knew exactly what Harry needed to do either though, and he didn't stop him from doing what he needed to do. But Sirius is definitely a more forceful personality. I can sort of see why he needed to die, but I can't quite put it in words yet.
Choices - Aug 8, 2007 11:00 am (#1595 of 1982)
I think JKR needed to take away Harry's mentors - his crutches. Harry had to eventually stand on his own two feet and think for himself. JKR had to get him to the point where he had no one to rely on but himself. Yes, he had Ron and Hermione, but they are contemporaries, not older authority figures. In DH, JKR takes Harry away from all the "grown-ups". It's just him, Ron and Hermione, out in the woods for weeks and months at a time. He has to learn to think things out for himself - without help from Sirius, Dumbledore, Lupin, etc. He learned what he could from his mentors, and now it is time to stand alone.
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 8, 2007 11:04 pm (#1596 of 1982)
Are there other reasons that Sirius had to die?
Because Harry had to be stripped, parents, substitutes, DD, Sirius, friend Hedwig, even his wand, he was left totally exposed, no adult to rely on.
Because Sirius hated Regulus's choice of purebloodness. Still Regulus loves Kreacher enough to die for him. Sirius saw Kreacher only as a creature upholding what he rejected. Sirius nevergave Kreacher consideration as a being.
As I read the book, I think I had at least one other reason if I remember it, I'll post it.
I loved Sirius because he was so simple, right is right and wrong is wrong. He didn't have much gray areas, complexity.
Remi - Aug 9, 2007 6:06 pm (#1597 of 1982)
In addition to what you listed, Mrs, Sirius, I thought one of the reasons Sirius had to die is one of the reasons that Lupin had to die too: So that the 3 "good" Marauders could reunite in the end (with Lily) and accompany Harry into The Forest Again. To me, James, Sirius & Lupin's friendship mirrored Harry, Ron & Hermione's. Seeing that death doesn't end friendships must've meant a lot to Harry.
It still $#@!& that they had to die.
Mediwitch - Aug 9, 2007 7:33 pm (#1598 of 1982)
In addition to the very important reasons already mentioned, if Sirius hadn't died, Harry wouldn't have inherited 12 GP (a place to hide) and Kreacher (so he couldn't have ordered Kreacher to tell him about Regulus and the locket).
Accio Sirius - Aug 13, 2007 1:31 pm (#1599 of 1982)
Has JKR said anywhere yet what became of 12GP or of Kreacher? Would Harry and Ginny live there?
Luna Logic - Aug 13, 2007 2:28 pm (#1600 of 1982)
No, nothing has come yet about places where HP people are living after the war.
mona amon - Aug 13, 2007 6:47 pm (#1601 of 1982)
Looks like poor Sirius is the only one who does not get a kid named after him. James, Lily, Lupin, Severus, Dumbledore all do. I assume Harry's first son's name was James Harry Potter. Or maybe it was James Harry Sirius Potter?
Allison R - Aug 13, 2007 6:48 pm (#1602 of 1982)
mona amon-- maybe James Sirius Potter?
mona amon - Aug 13, 2007 7:08 pm (#1603 of 1982)
Allison, there seems to be a tradition of naming the first son after the father. For example, Harry James Potter, Teddy Remus Lupin. So I assumed Harry's first son would have his name.
Allison R - Aug 13, 2007 7:49 pm (#1604 of 1982)
you're right, mona amon-- I hadn't noticed that trend. Well spotted!
TomProffitt - Aug 13, 2007 11:14 pm (#1605 of 1982)
Come on, it would have been James Ronald and Lily Hermione. Nope, Sirius loses out.
Xenophilius - Aug 14, 2007 4:10 am (#1606 of 1982)
I am holding out for James Arthur and Lily Molly.
Sticky Glue - Aug 16, 2007 7:13 pm (#1607 of 1982)
I'm hoping it's James Sirius Potter (feels right to me)
Xenophilius - Aug 16, 2007 7:25 pm (#1608 of 1982)
I guess Harry and Ginny had better get busy. The need more kids because they have more people they need to honor.
Potteraholic - Aug 16, 2007 7:44 pm (#1609 of 1982)
Xenophilius, I guess Harry and Ginny had better get busy. The need more kids because they have more people they need to honor. Hey, watch it!
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 19, 2007 10:47 pm (#1610 of 1982)
Well, following Spanish custom, which also may be used in the wizarding world, witness, Dumbledore, it could be
"James Harry Sirius Ronald Potter y Weasley"
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 20, 2007 10:03 pm (#1611 of 1982)
The Spanish translation of that would be a mouthful.
Accio Sirius - Aug 30, 2007 12:54 pm (#1612 of 1982)
Well, he may not have child named after him in the books, but we named our flaming red beta fish Sirius Red!
maria cloos - Sep 4, 2007 12:58 pm (#1613 of 1982)
Jo said that it was Albus Severus Sirius Potter. I thought that this was almost insulting to both Severus' and Sirius' memories! Then I thought about it. I could just see Harry trying to "force them to make up." I think that James Harry Sirius Potter would have been much better, but what do I know!
Aside- Could you imagine in the afterlife the looks on Sirius' and Severus' faces when they hear the name of Harry's second son? Lol...I just can't stop laughing.
wynnleaf - Sep 4, 2007 1:54 pm (#1614 of 1982)
When and where did JKR say that?? Citation? Just curious. I haven't seen that quote.
haymoni - Sep 5, 2007 6:41 pm (#1615 of 1982)
I thought it was Albus Severus Potter.
maria cloos - Sep 13, 2007 11:08 am (#1616 of 1982)
I don't know, but I think it was discussed on one of the podcasts that claimed they had heard that from her. I don't remember seeing it in the webchat, so who knows. I just thought it was amusing.
Orion - Sep 19, 2007 1:43 pm (#1617 of 1982)
Edited by Sep 19, 2007 1:48 pm
As you are currently speculating on names, why does Phineas think that the house of Black has died out? ("...the last of the Blacks is dead.") Narcissa Black had Draco, Andromeda Black had Tonks and Tonks had Teddy. Of course, Draco has the surname Malfoy, but he could always opt for "Black" if he thought the the name should survive, as it is old and traditional. The surname seems to be handed down on the male side in wizarding families, but nevertheless the dynasty lives on. Draco is a Black, just like the child that Sirius never had the chance to have.
Choices - Sep 19, 2007 4:27 pm (#1618 of 1982)
I think Phineas was referring to the fact that there was no longer a male from the Black family with the last name of Black.
Mrs. Sirius - Sep 19, 2007 9:09 pm (#1619 of 1982)
And so the family name, Black, joins that list of family surnames, Gaunt, Perevell, Slytherin, that no longer survives on the male line.
Steve Newton - Sep 20, 2007 6:40 am (#1620 of 1982)
Also Crouch. Not sure about the Crabbes.
Orion - Sep 20, 2007 12:59 pm (#1621 of 1982)
Yes, it's exactly what irks me, that a name only survives on the male side. As if the girls don't count, have no value. That's why I thought Draco could well switch to "Black" if he felt sorry that the name vanishes. Or Narcissa could switch to her maiden name and Draco could follow. It would show that an old family doesn't "die" only because the only members who get children are women. It seems so unfair. A family surely only "dies" if nobody at all has children any more?
I've read a lot of the posts of this gargantuan thread and lots of people seem to like OOP. Why? I hate this book. I forced myself to read it again to prepare for the film, but I read everything before Sirius' death and everything after, leaving a gap of about 40 pages. Then I managed to narrow the gap down to only ten pages or so, but I won't read them, never. I tried to because I told myself not to be such a wimp, but I couldn't. I sort of froze up when I tried to turn the pages. The worst part of it is Kreacher's betrayal, and how eveybody seems to gang up on Sirius to make sure he really, really dies. The message is a horrible one: It says "if you really, really care for someone, and you want to make sure the person survives, and you need the person so badly, then it's absolutely sure the person is gonna die and everything you do is doomed and will only hasten the person's death." Many people have said that they always knew Sirius had to die, and that was the worst part. He had absolutely no chance from the beginning. It's like in Hitchcock's "Vertigo" with James Stewart, where he meets the woman who reminds him of his lost love (and she really is, but we only find out in the end), and what happens? She dies.
JKR betrays the trust of her readers that, in a book designed first and foremost for children, the main characters are essentially safe. It started with Cedric Diggory, but we weren't supposed to care for him so much because we hardly knew him. But then, when Sirius died, the story was, in fact, over for me. This couldn't be repaired.
Joanna Lupin - Sep 20, 2007 1:11 pm (#1622 of 1982)
But that's just silly. Have you seen a war where nobody decent dies? Or where people do not suffer a loss?
Orion - Sep 20, 2007 1:29 pm (#1623 of 1982)
I didn't expect the story to grow to such huge proportions, and to get so bitterly serious. In a way I've started to like the first two books best, because they are overflowing with wild imagination and dry wit, and you aren't emotionally sandblasted all the time.
But it's only Sirius, I suppose. I have the weird feeling that people don't ADMIT how his death affects the story afterwards, but maybe I have serious paranoia... For me, it was like that: My interest in the HP story had ceased to exist after OOP, and I bought HBP only out of faithfulness. When I read it again, to prepare for the release of DH, I noticed that I had forgotten everything except the cave and DD's death, so I must have rushed through it the first time. I just couldn't be bothered to be bothered any more what happened in the story, because the damage of all damages had been done, and the rest wasn't so interesting any more. Only when I read HBP again I found out that it's really very good. I felt kind of relaxed reading it because Harry didn't have much to worry about. His greatest worry, the fear for Sirius, which had made him so vulnerable, had ceased to exist, and this gives him a whole new freedom and lets the storytelling expand and loosen up. I also hugely liked DH, because it was even looser, with great gaps where they sit around, for me, the highlights of the book. It wasn't the frantic to-the-second high-speed rush of PoA, and not the painful, slowly aggravating nightmare of OOP. I hated almost every single page of it.
wynnleaf - Sep 20, 2007 1:37 pm (#1624 of 1982)
Orion,
I was surprised at your post. When a writer creates a story, the object is not necessarily to show the characters having happy endings. Part of the point in developing Harry's love for Sirius was to make it a real crisis point for Harry when he dies. Harry never knew his parents, so while he feels their loss in the sense that he never knew them, he doesn't really grieve for them as he would if he knew and loved them. But JKR needed Harry to confront some major emotional losses, so that meant that people he cared about would have to die. In Sirius' case, she also wanted it to be a death that would create guilt for Harry -- a sense that his own choices led to Sirius' death.
Yes, it all seems rather ruthless. Create a character that your protagonist and your readers will love (well, most of them anyway), and then kill him off. What's the point? The point *is* the loss and the way it affects Harry.
JKR has said that the series is very much about death, what it means, and how we deal with it. Well, without deaths that we and Harry really care about, that theme can't play out in the strength that it takes to send the messages home.
The message is a horrible one: It says "if you really, really care for someone, and you want to make sure the person survives, and you need the person so badly, then it's absolutely sure the person is gonna die and everything you do is doomed and will only hasten the person's death." (Orion)
Well, one thing is for certain. Everyone that I love and care about will die. Many of them will, and have already, died before me. And for the most part it may seem pointless. Personally, I don't believe it is, but it may indeed appear that way.
Orion - Sep 20, 2007 1:52 pm (#1625 of 1982)
Hello Wynnleaf, thanks for your post. When I read it, I found out that I never saw Harry as the central character of the story, and probably the other people on the forum have a different view on that matter. You write "Yes, it all seems rather ruthless. Create a character that your protagonist and your readers will love (well, most of them anyway), and then kill him off. What's the point? The point *is* the loss and the way it affects Harry." That is the difference between normal, sane forum members and me: They know that the story is about Harry, and his personal growth and coming of age. For me, the story began "in earnest" with PoA and the introduction of gentle Remus Lupin, and, to a lesser extent, Sirius who had been cheated out of his life. Harry stopped being the focus then. Obviously, only for me...
wynnleaf - Sep 20, 2007 1:56 pm (#1626 of 1982)
Oh, I understand that one! I'm sure everyone knows that I think Snape is just as important as Harry!
Joanna Lupin - Sep 20, 2007 2:10 pm (#1627 of 1982)
Probably it's just the matter of taste, but I loved the three last books and it seemed to me that with each one JKR becomes a better writer. It irks me terribly when people say that OOTP was too long, because it was nothing of the sort to me. I understand why Sirius's death upset you. I was anguished for days when I read it, but that is the magic of HP in my opinion, that you can be emotionally shaken by a death of a fictional characters as if they were your family/friends. The first two books weren't so packed emotionally, obviously, because Harry was young and not yet mature enough to feel such complex things.
Orion - Sep 21, 2007 11:07 am (#1628 of 1982)
Edited by Sep 21, 2007 11:08 am
Not only upset... it's more that I feel that the word "SIRIUS" is written in tree-high letters over the last two books and every reader acts as if they weren't there to pretend that they are cool. Ramble ramble ramble...
I've thought it over. No, the first two aren't my favourites. But they are vastly underrated, especially the second one, which is, really, brilliant. But it's all about children. In PoA, people of my age turn up, in a great number and with fascinating stories. But how many of them survive all seven of the books? Snape and the Marauders, people I can relate to, all die. The rest of the thirtysomethings and fortysomethings are either DEs, that is, fleeing or already imprisoned or already dead, or insignificant peripheral figures like eg Rosmerta. The only ones who survive, are the bloody Malfoys, of all people. They would probably survive a nuclear war, cockroaches that they are. But they are sitting completely isolated. A whole generation is put firmly into place: Die, or go away. Only the teenagers and the really old and venerable (some of them already deceased and only present as portraits) are important in the end. I mean, JKR herself belongs to this generation, what does she want?
Joanna Lupin - Sep 21, 2007 1:30 pm (#1629 of 1982)
What about Kingsley and Mr. Weasley? LOL
haymoni - Sep 21, 2007 7:20 pm (#1630 of 1982)
JKR was pretty clear in what she wanted - she wanted Harry to go on alone.
Sirius wouldn't have stood for standing in the background. He would have tried to help Harry just like Lupin did. I don't think Harry would have been able to beat Sirius down like he did Remus - I don't think he would have wanted to.
He would have relied on Sirius and that was just not in JKR's cards.
I liked Sirius because he truly was "the height of cool" and he was a fun character. I even liked the snide remarks and his moodiness. The fact that he was pretty good looking certainly didn't hurt.
But again - it's not my book!
Orion - Sep 23, 2007 1:43 am (#1631 of 1982)
Oh Joanna, Molly is too old and Kingsley isn't such a central character. You must come up with some better suggestions to convince me! Haymoni, I agree with your post. Harry is on some sort of old-fashioned hero quest and must face his destiny alone in order to grow up, but I would have honestly expected the plotline to be more original than that. What's wrong with relying on somebody? If every generation would have to walk out of the way of the next one, we would be a lot more short-lived.
And isn't it weird how much we are influenced by a description of the characters? Sirius is described as good-looking, and it's not as if we would see him, but immediately we are biased in favour of him. Weird. Just look on the Narcissa thread to watch how positive the reactions to this unendurable bleached pureblood shrapnel are.
NFla Barbara - Sep 23, 2007 2:07 pm (#1632 of 1982)
unendurable bleached pureblood shrapnel
LOL, Orion. You have a great way with words.
I really have never thought about Sirius's looks, though. What counted the most for me was that he escaped to catch Peter and spent the rest of his life trying, in different ways, to protect Harry and give him a family.
kingdolohov - Sep 23, 2007 8:18 pm (#1633 of 1982)
You make a fair point about the good adults in the series. Here are the members of the Order according to the Lexicon (not edited since DH):
Sirius Black - kicked it
Dedalus Diggle - strange, excitable man probably traumatized by his time with the Dursleys
Elphias Doge - very old man that turned out to know little about his best friend
Albus Dumbledore - dead
Abeforth Dumbledore - old and a weirdo
Arabella Figg - a Squib obsessed with cats
Mundungus Fletcher - a dirty criminal
Rubeus Hagrid - the man tried to keep a dragon as a pet, enough said
Hestia Jones - stuck with the Dursleys for a year
Remus Lupin - kicked it after a miserable life
Minerva McGonagall - actually impressive
Mad-Eye Moody - kicked it and got his eye stolen
Sturgis Podmore - arrested and never heard from again
Kingsley Shacklebolt - he actually gets a good fate!
Severus Snape - killed by a snake after a miserable life
Nymphadora Tonks - Killed by her nutjob aunt
Emmeline Vance - kicked it
Arthur Weasley - only alive because Rowling didn't have the heart to kill him, even his kids call him a nutter sometimes
Bill Weasley - badly scarred
Charlie Weasley - don't really know anything about him
Molly Weasley - weepy woman who somehow managed to kill the second most powerful magical person alive at the time
Yes, I can see how it's hard to find someone that you can or would even want to relate to.
Orion - Sep 24, 2007 1:59 am (#1634 of 1982)
Oh dear, I knew the line-up of the Order was pathetic but not that pathetic! What is JKR trying to tell us?
NFla Barbara - Sep 24, 2007 5:57 am (#1635 of 1982)
Maybe this:
Sirius Black - died fighting alongside Harry for the greater good
Dedalus Diggle - strange, excitable man who will have great stories about those nutty Dursleys for the rest of his life
Elphias Doge - very old man who saw only the best in his best friend
Albus Dumbledore - dead for the greater good
Abeforth Dumbledore - unencumbered by social convention, and very much alive
Arabella Figg - a Squib obsessed with cats (OK)
Mundungus Fletcher - a dirty criminal (I have nothing good to say about him; I never "got" him as part of the Order)
Rubeus Hagrid - embodied the value of inclusiveness that DD thought would be essential for the survival of the WW
Hestia Jones - maybe she was able to tell Dudders a thing or two about his "freak" cousin
Remus Lupin - kicked it fighting for the greater good, but first found love & acceptance, in the process confronting his own weaknesses (with a little push from Harry)
Minerva McGonagall - consistently impressive
Mad-Eye Moody - died saving Harry
Sturgis Podmore - arrested and never heard from again (OK)
Kingsley Shacklebolt - he actually gets a good fate! (But he's not the only one!)
Severus Snape - killed by a snake after a miserable life (OK here, but at least he had that last chance to accomplish his mission by getting his memories to Harry)
Nymphadora Tonks - died with her wand out, fighting for the right side
Emmeline Vance - killed
Arthur Weasley - so what if he's a bit nutty? people like Arthur are the only hope for the WW to live peaceably in the world
Bill Weasley - gorgeous wife and, I imagine, a good job -- Victoire is not wearing hand-me-downs
Charlie Weasley - kept his ponytail and is still the coolest Weasley
Molly Weasley - having shown how powerful she was all along, was perfectly happy to go back to the peace and quiet of the Burrow and wait for the grandchildren to start arriving
Lots of death, in wartime, but the ones who are left all seem to have something to be happy about.
It is too bad for Harry that JKR couldn't leave him a single "parental" figure, but that's her literary call. He does learn to rely on others -- although there are some things he can only do himself, he learns that he will not succeed if he tries to do everything by himself. Sirius is critical because he gives Harry hope, for the first time, that there is some kind of good life waiting for him beyond Hogwarts. And at least with Sirius we get a glimpse "beyond the veil" when Harry uses the Resurrection Stone, so our final picture of him is one of, dare I say, contentment and anticipation.
kingdolohov - Sep 24, 2007 6:33 am (#1636 of 1982)
I know I took the more negative approach there, not really discussing personality. These are mostly good people (not Dung), but it does show Orion is right about not many relatable adults that survive. Most of the good adults die, are too old to relate to, are too young to relate to, are too minor, or have a giant for a brother. Personality wise, there are a lot of characters that one can identify with (hopefully), but on the surface it's not so easy.
Snuffles - Sep 24, 2007 6:41 am (#1637 of 1982)
I like that list Barbara.
I feel a bit nitpicky here, but Bill was the cool one with the ponytail not Charlie.
Slinks back off again........
Chemyst - Sep 24, 2007 7:17 am (#1638 of 1982)
I like your "sunnyside" outlook, Barbara.
I wouldn't change much, just add a smidgen -
Mad-Eye Moody died as the adventurer he was, and only after hundreds of successes.
Sturgis Podmore did survive fighting the first time around!
Emmeline Vance was also one of the few surviving members of the original Order of the Phoenix before her murder.
Charlie had a 'weather-beaten face.' He was a Quidditch Captain and dragon keeper who also survives with out injury– all of which are also very cool accomplisments.
NFla Barbara - Sep 24, 2007 3:31 pm (#1639 of 1982)
So sorry, again! First I forget Percy and now I'm mixing up Charlie and Bill. I guess a ponytail would not be prudent around fire-breathing dragons. Charlie ended up being more peripheral than I was hoping he'd be.
But back to Sirius...
Luna Logic - Sep 25, 2007 12:38 am (#1640 of 1982)
Before going back to Sirius I would add that Mr Weasley is a parental figure when we look carefully to the dialogs between him and Molly or between him and Harry. He is "nutty" only in apparence, IMO.
About Sirius, I have two questions :
-What became of Sirius's house, the one he bought with uncle Alphard's inheritance?
-Was Lily's letter left in that house all the time while Sirius was in Azkaban?
Chemyst - Sep 27, 2007 7:52 am (#1641 of 1982)
-Was Lily's letter left in that house all the time while Sirius was in Azkaban?
It seems that way. Using dates from the Lexicon, Sirius's mother dies in 1985. The letter would have been written in the fall of 1981; but Sirius was not living at 12 GP at that time. Sirius was sent to Azkaban in late 1981. The most logical explanation is that his personal effects were sent to 12 GP after he was sentenced and were stored in his room until he came to live there in OP. Mother Wallburga seems to have kept both her sons' rooms pretty much as they were when they still lived there.
-What became of Sirius's house, the one he bought with uncle Alphard's inheritance?
I have no idea what happened to the house bought from Uncle Alphard's gold, but Sirius would have needed money to support his time on the run, (he was living in a cave and begging for chicken bones by the end of GF!) Either he sold it to support himself during PA and his escape to the tropics and then used all the money in a few months, or he left the tropics too quickly to liquidate his assets there and buy survival food, or JKR just left another hole in the story. We know he did some banking while in hiding in PA because Crookshanks helped make the withdrawal for the broom. By GF, DD could have helped arrange finances for they were in contact.
Accio Sirius - Sep 27, 2007 5:27 pm (#1642 of 1982)
I wonder if Harry and Ginny eventually moved into Grimmauld Place. It was Harry's after all and with proper redecoration, it could be made into a lovely home I'm sure. I would imagine Harry would like being close to Sirius' memory and it did have a history for Ginny and the Order.
Orion - Sep 28, 2007 7:00 am (#1643 of 1982)
I hope that, too! They should have kept the silver and sold all the dark magic stuff to George.
Choices - Sep 28, 2007 9:09 am (#1644 of 1982)
I was looking up something the other day and found something I thought was interesting. In DH we learn about Gamp's Elemental Law of Transfiguration. A woman by the name of Hesper Gamp (1877 - 1952) was married to Sirius Black, the oldest son of Phineas Nigellus Black. How she is related to the Gamp of Gamp's Law I don't know, but since the name is the same it seems likely that they are related.
PeskyPixie - Sep 28, 2007 9:45 am (#1645 of 1982)
Well, all old pure-blood families are related, aren't they?
Either that or Gamp was a very common surname back in the day.
haymoni - Sep 29, 2007 4:15 am (#1646 of 1982)
"My name is Hester...Hester Ga-amp."
Sorry..."Forrest Gump" has been running on the cable channels a lot lately.
Choices - Sep 29, 2007 11:00 am (#1647 of 1982)
LOL Forrest Gump crossed my mind also, Haymoni.
PeskyPixie - Sep 29, 2007 1:29 pm (#1648 of 1982)
'My name's Hesper Gamp ... people call me Hesper Gamp.'
haymoni - Sep 30, 2007 3:21 pm (#1649 of 1982)
Again...my apologies.
maria cloos - Oct 1, 2007 2:11 pm (#1650 of 1982)
Back on the Sirius thing, I feel your pain, Orion. I honestly do. Jo had said that there was a specific reason that Sirius died at the veil and most of us felt that (based on his name as well) he would play a much more significant part. I did love his interaction with Harry in the Forbidden Forest though, small as it was.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 1, 2007 2:17 pm (#1651 of 1982)
Sirius experiences far too much hardship in his short life. The scene in the Forbidden Forest (DH) gives closure to his tragic life, and fills me with joy that he is at peace in a better place now.
I just hope he behaves and lays off Snape up/over there. Just imagine if DD has to start handing out detentions in the afterlife!
Orion - Oct 1, 2007 2:19 pm (#1652 of 1982)
Thanks maria! It gives me a pang to even read the name. This is the first and only time I ever felt pain over the death of a fictional character. Peculiar, very peculiar.
PeskyPixie - Oct 1, 2007 2:26 pm (#1653 of 1982)
Orion, are you sure it has nothing to do with Sirius's 'great good looks'? And I thought you said you were off to bed!
Snuffles - Oct 1, 2007 2:27 pm (#1654 of 1982)
Orion, do as I do. Just pick up book 1 and start all over again. Just try to avoid chapter 35 in OOTP!! If you didn't read it, it never happened!!
PeskyPixie - Oct 1, 2007 2:30 pm (#1655 of 1982)
Snuffles, that's what try I do about Snape's death!
Orion - Oct 2, 2007 7:03 am (#1656 of 1982)
Me too. It has never happened ladidah it has never happened...
I posted this ten seconds later than the hangman and then I went to bed, honestly!
PeskyPixie - Oct 21, 2007 2:52 pm (#1657 of 1982)
I've posted the following on the James and Lily thread in the past, but feel it applies better here.
My best friend and I are as close as James and Sirius. We even became fast friends upon meeting at approximately the same age that James and Sirius befriend one another aboard the Hogwarts Express.
If my friend and I found ourselves in the same position as Sirius and James (I as Sirius and she as James), if DD informed her that there is a rat amongst our circle of unbelievably close friends and that they should trust no one but DD as secretkeeper, I would urge her to choose DD as secretkeeper as nobody is to be trusted with the life of my godchild. I would never trust my own judgement and instinct when a person of DD's skill has offered to protect the life of the child I love. This is a very foolish decision on Sirius's part, although it exemplifies his character perfectly.
Let the rants begin ...
wynnleaf - Oct 21, 2007 6:06 pm (#1658 of 1982)
I certainly won't rant about it!
And did you notice JKR commenting, in New York I think, that Harry would make a lot better godfather than Sirius?
mona amon - Oct 21, 2007 9:40 pm (#1659 of 1982)
I too agree with you wholeheartedly, PeskyPixie!
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 21, 2007 10:42 pm (#1660 of 1982)
Well! I guess I am going to have to Pesky. (I must defend my Sirius' honor).
Sirius is a valiant man. He is self confident. He knows that right is right and wrong is wrong. Siding with the dark side is wrong and being loyal to your friends is right. Sirius knows and has said that he would rather die than betray his friends. He would rather die!
As a parent I can say, and here is were I would critize Sirius, he is young, he is naive. At the age that Sirius took the secret keeper oath, he was still young enough that death was a far of thing, it was not real. Death wouldn't happen to a smart, young, strong man. Even if other people are dying, death simply is not going to happen to you.
As a parent I can see now how at that age one feel's invincible. But as we get older, and have our own children, that invincibility starts to crack. After you are the parent and that child is yours, to protect one starts to feel much more vulnerable.
Sirius know he would never go to the dark side. He knew he was smart and strong. Sirius has been described as reckless at some point. It would not occur to him that the dark side could get him.
legolas returns - Oct 22, 2007 12:01 am (#1661 of 1982)
Harry calms down a little towards the end of the book and does not rush to get the wand. He wonders if he made the correct decision. I am sure that Sirius would have charged in there and not thought of the consequences. Sirius would have acted and thought later.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 22, 2007 7:03 am (#1662 of 1982)
Yes, Sirius is, well, a bit rash. But I still love him. He is straight forward, simple right is right, wrong is wrong. He is not one of those complicated men for whom discussion can go on forever and still no conclusive view points.
Again he is not stupid or unsophisticated, he is just very clear on his views and his motives are always above board.
(meooow phsst)
legolas returns - Oct 22, 2007 10:28 am (#1663 of 1982)
I never said that I disliked him. I thought that he was very lovable and he would have been fun.
PeskyPixie - Oct 22, 2007 10:56 am (#1664 of 1982)
I've found my original post regarding this issue. It explains my point of view better than I expressed myself in my previous post. Here it is:
James and Lily act as true Gryffindors in their loyalty to their friends. However, they should have been more concerned about the fact that a dark wizard was targeting them and one of their friends kept on leaking information about them to the enemy. Anybody in the magical world would desire Albus Dumbledore's protection in such a situation. Even Snape sought out Dumbledore as his best hope of protecting Lily.
James and Sirius act very true to their natures when they decline Dumbledore's protection and cook up their own scheme. I do consider the Potters' decision as disregarding DD's lead; one of three is a rat (i.e. a traitor, not Peter's animagus form) who is a danger to their baby, yet they just choose to guess at who he is? Sirius would be far more responsible if he would've instead talked James into accepting Dumbledore as secret-keeper, reminding him that no one is to be trusted with his godson's life until the snitch in the Order is discovered. A sad situation, yes, but this is war and the Potters' baby is at the centre of it. Seclusion under Dumbledore's protection until the traitor is caught is not a huge price to pay for the ultimate safety of one's baby.
I feel this way as my best friend and I are as close as James and Sirius; we are family. If she were in James' situation I (as best friend and godmother to her child) would opt for her (and her family's) protection by someone with greater ability than myself, even if that would mean not seeing her for a few years (or ever, if I were to die in the war). Then again, perhaps that is just the Slytherin in me.
Also, I do not believe that youth alone motivates Sirius's decision. He is passionate by nature; he acts with his heart ... not always the smartest thing to do, but undoubtedly noble.
PeskyPixie - Oct 23, 2007 3:14 pm (#1665 of 1982)
No one wants to discuss Sirius any longer? Oh, shucks.
Orion - Oct 24, 2007 6:45 am (#1666 of 1982)
Well, he's dead anyway...
Barbara J - Oct 24, 2007 8:46 am (#1667 of 1982)
PeskyPixie, I think you summed it up very well when you said James and Sirius both acted "true to their natures." But I think it's comparing apples and oranges to say that Harry would be a better godfather than Sirius was. Sirius really never had a chance. And I would not be surprised if Harry responded to any youthful misbehavior of Teddy's with a wink and a pat on the back. He may have learned to control some of his impulsiveness, but part of his nature is, as DD once noted, a certain disregard for the rules. So yes, Harry will probably be a more responsible godfather, but it's easier to be responsible when you haven't just escaped from prison and the whole WW doesn't think you're a mass murderer.
PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 10:39 am (#1668 of 1982)
Well, he's dead anyway... -Orion
Yes, but so are Dumbledore and Snape (no, no I'm still in denial!) but their threads are constantly moving. I thought you loved this man and would do anything to defend him! For shame, Orion ...
Honestly, I did not expect Sirius's fans to take my 'attack' on his character so calmly! You should see us Snape fans on the Snape thread ... and our guy does some pretty nasty things! I can just see Severus sneering at Sirius in the afterlife.
azi - Oct 24, 2007 11:03 am (#1669 of 1982)
I always feel the Snape fans are a dangerous and ferocious group, to be avoided on pain of death. Sirius fans are more laid back (or maybe just used to him being dead? Alas, whenever I read his lines in OotP I get upset just thinking about his death).
The thing about Sirius is that he's a less complex character than Snape or Dumbledore. He motives were very clear from the start. DD and Snape are less obvious. Yes, Sirius has issues, negative characteristics etc., but they don't really affect the overall plot of the series. DD and Snape are debatable in their motives and their effects on the plot, even if the debates tend to go round in circles.
PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 11:07 am (#1670 of 1982)
Ah, I just figured you guys would lie till you were blue in the face to cast off the negative side of his character! You are a very noble lot. I, however, am a 'dangerous and ferocious' Snape fan and shall now return to my homeship!
Accio Sirius - Oct 24, 2007 11:21 am (#1671 of 1982)
Part of the problem is that I think JKR often just writes off Sirius as someone with "flaws." She says that just about every time she mentions him. Many of those said flaws were the result of a great injustice he endured, which resulted in stunted emotional growth. But he still does pretty well in my book. I think after JKR realized how many fans responded to Sirius as a character--maybe because he was one of the few she describes as really handsome--she kind of had to down play him off a bit. His character flaws, while irksome and rather immature at times, I think they rank rather low compared to those of some other characters. I know a lot of Snape fans really dislike Sirius and often talk about the werewolf incident at Hogwarts as a murder attempt. I don't think Sirius really thought of it like that. It was a hasty impulsive response. Not a premeditated act. If you read his passages in the books, you hear him quip sarcastically a lot and I always took the Snape incident as, "yeah, you wanna know what's going on? Go look for yourself." But that's just me. I really didn't become a fan of Sirius until Order of the Phoenix when it was clear how deeply parental he felt for Harry. Sirius maybe lacked good judgment when it came to his own safety, but he always had Harry's best interest at heart. And I think Harry makes a good godfather because he had Sirius as one. Look how important Sirius--with all said flaws--was to Harry. I'm sure he wanted to be able to give that and more to Teddy.
Orion - Oct 24, 2007 11:38 am (#1672 of 1982)
Just used to him being dead - ROTFL! Pesky, I love whom exactly?
PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 12:08 pm (#1673 of 1982)
You claimed to be heartbroken over Sirius's death in a previous post, so I figured you'd want to defend him. (Gary Oldman is mine, by the way )
Orion - Oct 24, 2007 12:38 pm (#1674 of 1982)
Aha. Good to know. One's always the last one to find out. As for "still in denial": Yes! (Wrong thread, wrong thread...) If we all breathe very cautiously and don't make any sudden movements, she will write book eight (Harry Potter and the very very secret department) which starts in the Great Hall immediately when HRH have returned from DD's office, and a whey-faced and very disgruntled (well, nothing new here) Snape staggers in, clutching at his neck, and snarls at Harry "thought I was done for, didn't you Potter? Well I have news for you - there were a few VERY useful spells in the last pages you were too slow to snaffle, and for the minutes, that was the last time I saved your spotty bum! That's it, I'm off." and then walks, staggers or crawls to the nearest exit and leaves this pestilential school for good. So hold your breath...
PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 12:51 pm (#1675 of 1982)
Yay, Orion! I'm going to use this ending from now on.
I'd make up a different ending for Sirius for you (one where he's just hiding behind the veil), but JKR has already shown him to us, chilling with his buddies in the afterlife!
wynnleaf - Oct 24, 2007 12:55 pm (#1676 of 1982)
Okay, here's a question about Sirius. Why did he avoid Slytherin?
In The Prince's Tale, we are shown Sirius and James on their way to Hogwarts on the train.
Here's my interpretation of Sirius at that point. He seemed to be chatting with James and getting along. The subject of Houses came up when Snape and Lily talk about it and Snape mentions Slytherin. James makes a disparaging remark about Slytherin. Sirius comments that all of his family had been in Slytherin.
James commented that up until that point, he'd thought Sirius was alright -- firmly implying that the notion that Sirius could end up in Slytherin would probably put an end to their budding friendship. Sirius' response was to comment that maybe he'd buck family tradition.
Now why did Sirius say this? Up until James implied that going into Slytherin would ruin their budding friendship, Sirius had no negative comments about Slytherin or given any indication that he might avoid that House.
Fans tend to think that Sirius had always been opposed to Dark Arts and that's why he didn't go into Slytherin.
But my interpretation of what was going on during the train ride is that Sirius, a natural "rebel" type anyway, really liked his new friend James and was quite willing to rebel against the family traditions in order to keep his new friend.
While Sirius may have later developed a healthy dislike of the Dark Arts, I think opposition to the Dark Arts, for 11 year old Sirius, probably had nothing to do with his choice of House.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 24, 2007 1:01 pm (#1677 of 1982)
I know a lot of Snape fans really dislike Sirius and often talk about the werewolf incident at Hogwarts as a murder attempt. I don't think Sirius really thought of it like that. Accio Sirius
Oh, please, that was no murder attempt, that was just Snape's melodrama. The worst that would have happened is that Lupin would have given him a couple of little bites and Snape would have become a werewolf.
Look at Bill, he survived just fine.
PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 1:07 pm (#1678 of 1982)
This is comparing apples and oranges. Fenrir is not transformed when he attacks Bill. Lupin, on the other hand, is supposed to be fully transformed (don't ask me how it works as this is JKR's story) which is how Snape comes to know of his ailment.
The worst that would have happened is that Lupin would have given him a couple of little bites and Snape would have become a werewolf. -Mrs. Sirius
I assume you're joking?
wynnleaf, I will get back to the ideas presented in your post in a little while (you just give us so much to think of!).
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 24, 2007 10:55 pm (#1679 of 1982)
If you have to explain a joke than is isn't very funny, yes Pesky, I am joking. Pardon my feeble attempt at humor.:-;
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 6:13 am (#1680 of 1982)
I always feel the Snape fans are a dangerous and ferocious group, to be avoided on pain of death. Sirius fans are more laid back-- azi
Lol, I was thinking the same thing reading this thread a couple of days ago. I was just feeling too lazy and laid back to type up a reply!
Part of the problem is that I think JKR often just writes off Sirius as someone with "flaws." She says that just about every time she mentions him. Many of those said flaws were the result of a great injustice he endured, which resulted in stunted emotional growth. But he still does pretty well in my book. I think after JKR realized how many fans responded to Sirius as a character--maybe because he was one of the few she describes as really handsome--she kind of had to down play him off a bit. His character flaws, while irksome and rather immature at times, I think they rank rather low compared to those of some other characters. I know a lot of Snape fans really dislike Sirius and often talk about the werewolf incident at Hogwarts as a murder attempt. I don't think Sirius really thought of it like that. It was a hasty impulsive response. Not a premeditated act. If you read his passages in the books, you hear him quip sarcastically a lot and I always took the Snape incident as, "yeah, you wanna know what's going on? Go look for yourself." But that's just me. I really didn't become a fan of Sirius until Order of the Phoenix when it was clear how deeply parental he felt for Harry. Sirius maybe lacked good judgment when it came to his own safety, but he always had Harry's best interest at heart. And I think Harry makes a good godfather because he had Sirius as one. Look how important Sirius--with all said flaws--was to Harry. I'm sure he wanted to be able to give that and more to Teddy. --Accio Sirius
Great post. Sirius wasn't one of my favorite characters until recently. I've been listening to the audiobooks with my daughter and we've just finished OotP. I was surprised by how much I liked the man this time through. Now that the series has ended, I can really appreciate the gifts he gave Harry: Always fight for what's right. Never give up. Some things are worth dying for. If your godchild needs you, you be there for him, no matter how difficult it is. He's one of those rare characters who loved life and wasn't afraid of death. Not even dementors could stop him (unhinged him a bit, yes, but they couldn't stop him living). Now that I see the series through the paradigm of learning to accept a place for both life and death, Sirius's life and death takes on a much more important role in the plot than I originally estimated.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 8:40 am (#1681 of 1982)
If you have to explain a joke than is isn't very funny, yes Pesky, I am joking. Pardon my feeble attempt at humor.:-; -Mrs. Sirius
Sorry about that. I was in a rush the last time, so I went back to re-read your post and got it this time around. Hey, better late than never, right?
I like Sirius, but his flaws really bother me as they often create devastating results which we readers love to overlook as he's a 'good guy'. Sirius is in no way a good godfather at all times. His bullying of Harry in OotP ("You're a lot less like your father than I thought") in downright disgusting. We condemn Snape for bullying Harry while he is James's enemy, but we fail to realize that bullying from his father's best friend (who happens to be his godfather) is far more detrimental to Harry's development. Oh yes, Sirius is in prison for most of his adult life. That's what turns him into a bullying daredevil. He was a lamb before he went to Azkaban.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 9:21 am (#1682 of 1982)
I like Sirius, but his flaws really bother me as they often create devastating results which we readers love to overlook as he's a 'good guy'.-- PeskyPixie
I don't think readers love to overlook Sirius's flaws. He has flaws. He's also a good guy. ***shrug***. He's human.
We condemn Snape for bullying Harry while he is James's enemy, but we fail to realize that bullying from his father's best friend (who happens to be his godfather) is far more detrimental to Harry's development.
Certainly Sirius's opinion of Harry will matter to Harry far more than Snape's will, and Sirius thus has far more potential to influence Harry for good or ill because of that. I think Sirius did have a tremendous impact--mostly good-- on Harry. Sure, Sirius had a few issues with seeing Harry separate from James, but we also see Molly Weasley call him on it in front of Harry. Of course this will matter more to Harry and have more impact on him than Snape's random hostility. But I find thinking about it in terms of Snape sort of goes no where. It's actually an interesting topic because I can see how Sirius's attitude influenced Harry's decisions and development. I thought the first time I read OotP that it was a good move on Rowling's part to kill off Sirius, but now I can see it was much deeper than that.
Orion - Oct 25, 2007 10:50 am (#1683 of 1982)
In OOP Molly is wrong and Sirius is right. If they had been open with Harry instead of treating him like a child (after all he's gone through) the tragedy at the ministry wouldn't have happened. And you can't accuse Sirius of "bullying" Harry, just because of one single sentence. Sirius is absolutely devoted to Harry and gives him more unconditional love than anybody else does. One outburst of disappointment must be allowed some time! I find it very hard to criticise a man who went through such a hell and lost so many years of his life.
But when it comes to Sirius versus Snape, I'm naturally on Snape's side - yes, it was a murder attempt, and it's not unthinkable. In my country we have lots and lots of teenage killings (nearly all of them male) over petty rows. Primates!
wynnleaf - Oct 25, 2007 11:16 am (#1684 of 1982)
Sirius' flaws by and large don't stem from Azkaban. It's just that being in Azkaban, he was sort of stunted and therefore didn't grow out of some flaws that he might (not necessarily would ) have grown out of if he'd not been in Azkaban. Many bullies, after all, remain bullies even without having dreadful calamaties occur to stunt their maturing process.
What bothers me most about Sirius and the werewolf prank is three-fold. 1. Sirius pulled that prank with complete disregard for how it might affect his supposedly good friend Lupin. 2. Apparently Sirius didn't learn a single thing from it. The Worst Memory scene must have happened just months after the Prank, yet Sirius and James are both amazingly lacking in circumspection regarding Lupin's condition. And they are still quite ready to bully and torment Snape for no reason other than Sirius' boredom and because Snape exists. Further, they are still completely happy with getting Lupin out on full moon nights to roam the country-side, even though they had recently had a near death on their hands. 3. Even years later, after leaving Azkaban a year before, and even though he hadn't seen or had anything to do with Snape for years Sirius, immediately upon hearing Snape mentioned, began asserting that Snape had deserved that prank, just because he was sneaking around trying to get them expelled (not that it's hard to blame Snape for wanting such bullies out of the school). It seemed to me that Sirius was making it clear that he'd always thought Snape deserved it, even after the Prank came to near disaster.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 11:19 am (#1685 of 1982)
In OOP Molly is wrong and Sirius is right. If they had been open with Harry instead of treating him like a child (after all he's gone through) the tragedy at the ministry wouldn't have happened.-- Orion
I meant that Molly was right about Sirius sometimes acting like he had got his best friend back, instead of always treating Harry like his godson. Sirius was of course right about giving Harry information. I'm glad Sirius did what he did at dinner at Grimmauld place that first night. Dumbledore had usurped much of the power of guardian for Harry, and wasn't doing such a great job at it. Sirius manages to assert a little bit of authority, and does some good with it. Too bad he wasn't able to keep it up. That letter from Dumbledore to Sirius about the occlumency lessons was like a slap to Sirius. After that Sirius was pretty much out of touch with Harry.
Edited to add: The werewolf prank bothers me because it is never explained. We know why Snape loathes Sirius, but she never explains why Sirius has an equally strong loathing for Snape. We know Sirius told Snape how to get into the Whomping Willow, but we also know that Snape already suspected Lupin was a werewolf. We know that Dumbledore hushed things up, but we don't know why Snape decided he would keep this secret about a werewolf and a supposed attempted murder, especially when he later makes clear that he believed Lupin was in on it. None of it adds up, so I'm not ready to pull out the violins for poor, poor Snape. Why would he be so trusting of Dumbledore if he really thought Sirius was trying to murder him and Dumbledore was covering it up? It doesn't make sense. I suspect Snape wasn't so innocent in all this. But Rowling doesn't give us much information, unfortunately.
Orion - Oct 25, 2007 11:22 am (#1686 of 1982)
Yes, and he continues to bully and taunt Snape in OOP. When I read that confrontation in 12GP, I'd like to thrash Sirius. He immediately falls back on teenage level, and he has no reason at all to do that. The "mutual dislike" isn't explained - Snape has every reason to loathe him, but what reason does Sirius have? (Apart from showing solidarity with Harry, but then he doesn't know what a nuisance Harry is as a student, and even if he knew, he wouldn't be bothered, but he would egg Harry on.)
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 11:31 am (#1687 of 1982)
The "mutual dislike" isn't explained - Snape has every reason to loathe him, but what reason does Sirius have?
That's what I would have liked to know. When Lupin mentions Snape's name in the Shrieking Shack, Sirius actually looks away from Pettigrew. That's some serious dislike. Alas, it is never explained. It's one of those gaps in the story that weaken it, in my opinion.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 11:33 am (#1688 of 1982)
Snape has every reason to loathe him, but what reason does Sirius have? -Orion
Snape is a scrawny, unkempt, loner of an eleven-year-old who wants to be placed in Slytherin House. This is the original reason for Sirius's hatred of Snape and he feels justified in it.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 11:42 am (#1689 of 1982)
That makes no sense. Sirius is distracted by Snape's name in the Shrieking Shack because Snape dressed funny when he was 11? I'm not buying it.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 11:46 am (#1690 of 1982)
"Snape is a scrawny, unkempt, loner of an eleven-year-old who wants to be placed in Slytherin House." I used the words "scrawny" and "unkempt" as I don't like describing children as "ugly" or "greasy".
From 'the Prince's Tale' I got the idea that the encounter aboard the Hogwarts Express sets up the enmity between Snape and Sirius/James; it's a long 'snowball effect' after that. Maybe I've missed something.
What then is Sirius's original reason for disliking Snape?
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 12:17 pm (#1691 of 1982)
Sorry, it sounded to me like you were answering Orion's question by saying the adult Sirius felt justified for hating Snape because he looked funny and wanted to be in Slytherin when they were eleven. Yes, I do know they took a dislike to each other on the train. But Rowling shows the Marauders bullying Snape as teenagers, thereby establishing a reason for Snape to loathe Sirius. But Sirius shows an equal loathing for Snape. Snape's name alone is enough to distract him from Pettigrew, the traitor who is responsible for the murder of Sirius's best friends and his being blamed and incarcerated for a crime he didn't commit for 12 years. Why does Sirius have such remarkable enmity towards Snape? Rowling never tells us, and in my opinion it is a serious gap in the tale.
This quote is from Rowling at the World Day Book Chat, March 4, 2004:
Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow?
JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course.
That seems to indicate that there is more to it yet to be revealed, but I don't think whatever it was made it into the final cut of the series.
wynnleaf - Oct 25, 2007 12:47 pm (#1692 of 1982)
We did find out more about the Prank "in due course." A bit. We found out it happened before the Worst Memory scene. When Lily asked James "what's he done to you?" James didn't go into some excuse about how awful Snape had been to the Marauders. He had no particular excuse. Sure, I suppose there could have been some separate thing that Snape did only to Sirius that made Sirius hate him. But we aren't given any reason for James' dislike of Snape -- in fact, we're clearly shown that he was willing to dislike (or Sirius) for no other reason than that he would end up in Slytherin. Why does Sirius have to have a more complex reason that involves some fault on Snape's part?
Sirius, unlike James, has numerous scenes in POA, GOF, and OOTP where he could have offered up a greater reason to dislike Snape than being "up to his ears" in the Dark Arts. Yet he never gives such a reason. Wouldn't Lupin have known about it if Snape had done something terrible to Sirius? Yet we get no indication from Lupin or Sirius that there's more to Snape's school-time actions than an interest in Dark Arts and hanging out with a bad crowd.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 1:31 pm (#1693 of 1982)
Edited Oct 25, 2007 2:06 pm
Sirius's dislike of anything associated with Slytherin and the Dark Arts causes him to hate Severus. Coupled with his alpha personality no further explanation is necessary for his treatment of Snape.
Sirius feels justified in his behaviour as, after all, in the grander scheme of the world he picks the 'good side'. It's the classic example of schoolyard bullying, where the cool kids pick on the 'weirder' ones. But in this case, the weird one has some tricks up his sleeve as well.
Accio Sirius - Oct 25, 2007 3:53 pm (#1694 of 1982)
The whole shrieking shack incident, I don't feel has been fully explained, but several things have been implied. Snape was deeply jealous of James for so many reasons so it seems that Snape took great effort and pleasure to try to catch him in something (of which the Marauders most likely provided many opportunities--perhaps to prove to Lily what a jerk James could be. I've always imagined the same adversarial relationship between Snape and the Marauders as HRH and Malfoy et al.
As for what reason does the adult Sirius have for hating Snape? For a second I thought you were joking.
Sirius thinks of Harry like a son and Snape pours all of his hatred for James out on Harry. That's immaturity to rival any of Sirius' behavior. That's not even to mention the fact that Snape was willing to turn Sirius in knowing he was innocent. Just to be spiteful. As for Snape's treatment of Harry, if my daughter had a teacher that was as blatantly biased and cruel to her as Snape, I'd be fit to be tied. I thought Sirius was restrained.
Now, I don't want to sound like someone who will defend Sirius' every last action, but I feel compelled to at least defend the stuff that just gets heaped on him. He did not "bully" Harry in OoP. Bullying causes fear and anger. Sirius' comment about Harry not being like James was a guilt trip at best and that's exactly how Harry took it. He felt bad. Sirius was desperate for an emotional connection and felt like he could find it in Harry. I think he was profoundly disappointed that maybe Harry didn't feel that same bond, or maybe it was just that Harry had more sense than James and was just trying to keep his godfather out of trouble. Mind you, I didn't like the scene either, but the only time I am truly "disgusted" is reading about the way Snape treats Harry and often belittles Hermoine for sport. That's my definition of bullying.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 4:33 pm (#1695 of 1982)
Yes! I knew you Sirius fans had it in you! You just had to be goaded ... hmm, sounds familiar ...
Sirius's mood swings affect Harry far more than Snape's nastiness. Harry doesn't even take Snape seriously by OotP (he just hates being around him due to his, well, nastiness). Even in PoA we learn that Lupin's light scolding makes Harry feel far more guilty than Snape's ranting; in CoS, DD's disappointment at the flying Ford Anglia incident affects Harry far more than Snape's lecture. Similarly, a kid feels more hurt at not living up to a parental figure's expectations than at snide remarks my an adult they dislike to begin with.
In the Muggle world, adults talk to psychiatrists more often about parent issues than mean teachers encountered in school.
As for what reason does the adult Sirius have for hating Snape? For a second I thought you were joking. -Accio Sirius
To whom is this addressed and what specifically do you mean by it? Please elaborate.
Accio Sirius - Oct 25, 2007 5:12 pm (#1696 of 1982)
My, you are a peskypixie, egging us on like that!
. I'm glad for it since this thread often lies dormant for long periods of time.
Sorry for not quoting the source originally: in post 1686 Orion said: "When I read that confrontation in 12GP, I'd like to thrash Sirius. He immediately falls back on teenage level, and he has no reason at all to do that. The "mutual dislike" isn't explained - Snape has every reason to loathe him, but what reason does Sirius have?"
See post 1694 for my response.
I think Lupin and Sirius have more of an effect on Harry because he knows that they reprimand, guilt trip, whatever out of love and affection. Harry doesn't have any respect for Snape because everything he heaps on him is out of petty hatred. Of course, I always thought that Harry should have at least tried killing Snape with kindness, but it just wasn't meant to be. Ultimately Snape did noble things but didn't take the most honorable route to get there. I think by the end, he had a clearer picture and when he's horrified by Dumbledore's plan for Harry in DH, that's when I finally felt like Snape came around. Again, I don't want to sound like an apologist here, but there's no way you can convince me that Sirius' personal faults were worse than anyone else's, especially after reading DH. I know DD was acting for the greater good in leading Harry down the path to his destiny, but up until this last book, I really thought Dumbledore had more parental affection for Harry. Now, I'm not so sure. Granted, Sirius probably wouldn't have been able to stand it if he knew what Harry had to do and that's why as a character he had to die.
wynnleaf - Oct 25, 2007 6:00 pm (#1697 of 1982)
Sirius thinks of Harry like a son and Snape pours all of his hatred for James out on Harry. That's immaturity to rival any of Sirius' behavior. That's not even to mention the fact that Snape was willing to turn Sirius in knowing he was innocent. (Accio Sirius)
Sorry, both of these are at least in part very incorrect.
Adult Sirius in POA hated Snape without the slightest knowledge of anything between Snape and Harry. Sure, by OOTP Sirius knows some of Snape's attitude toward Harry, but not before that. We get to see all of Harry's contact with Sirius in GOF and he didn't tell him during that year.
"That's not even to mention the fact that Snape was willing to turn Sirius in knowing he was innocent."
This is simply not correct. Snape didn't know Sirius was innocent. He didn't even hear the evidence that was given in the Shrieking Shack prior to his revealing himself. A careful look at the series of events shows us that after Snape entered under the cloak, the only things discussed were Lupin's betrayal of Dumbledore's trust and some other information that had nothing to do with Peter being the secret keeper. After Snape revealed himself, sure Lupin, Sirius and the kids were saying Snape should stop and listen, but none of them actually gave him any evidence. And even if they did, which one was Snape supposed to believe? The supposed murderer and Death Eater? Lupin who had just admitted in Snape's hearing to concealing vital information from Dumbledore that helped the supposed murderer run free? Or the kids who break rules right and left and, as children, could easily be susceptible to a confundus from either Lupin or Sirius?
Barbara J - Oct 25, 2007 6:12 pm (#1698 of 1982)
Snape and DD both have a calculating streak. Sirius is not calculating at all, and I don't think he could have stood it for a minute if DD told him that Harry had to die for LV to die. (Of course, after GoF, DD's calculating streak was allowing him to gamble that Harry would not really be killed, but he didn't share that with anyone.) I agree that Sirius' mood swings have a different effect on Harry than Snape's dislike, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. We need to learn that people we love can be angry with us and still love us -- Harry has never had love from anyone; he certainly didn't learn anything about healthy relationships from the Dursleys. Sirius might express disappointment with Harry, but he is still always there for him when it counts. Another somewhat related thought -- Harry has Hermione serving as a sort of "check" on some of the things Sirius says to him -- she keeps him grounded, to the extent he listens to her.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 6:37 pm (#1699 of 1982)
I'm sorry, but telling an orphan that he's nothing like his admirable father is about the lowest thing one can do as that child's godparent. It is as bad as Snape's taunting of Harry being as arrogant as his father, arguably worse as Sirius is an adult whom Harry respects. The kid's lucky he's got a mature friend like Hermione!
I agree that Sirius' mood swings have a different effect on Harry than Snape's dislike, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. We need to learn that people we love can be angry with us and still love us -Barbara J
Lupin and Dumbledore have fair reasons to be angry with Harry when they express disappoint in him, and Harry learns from them that it is possible for one to be angry with you, but love you just the same. As far as I'm concerned, Sirius has no logical reason to be angry with or express disappointment in his godson in OotP. I suppose we could always go the 'unhinged in Azkaban' route.
Accio Sirius - Oct 25, 2007 6:46 pm (#1700 of 1982)
So much of this is grabbed out of context, which is my fault for not being more specific about which comments I am addressing. Sorry for that. The rational of mine behind my quote that wynnleaf cited centers on why I believed Sirius still hated Snape when they had the fight in OoP. And sorry wynnleaf, but I believe Sirius did have strong parental feelings for Harry in POA, acting as Godfather even while in hiding in POA, sending Harry the firebolt and sneaking in to watch him play Quidditch, risking recapture not to mention his life to save Harry from Wormtail. Certainly by OoP, Sirius felt parental love for Harry. In thinking of why he would still have such animosity for Snape after all that time, I would imagine he saw Snape's behavior in the shrieking shack in POA as a repeat of before--following the Marauders, getting the wrong idea and then going to tell on them. Yes, technically Snape didn't hear the whole, actual explanation. But it's my impression, and I think it's also been implied, that Snape never really cared about justice when it came to James, Sirius, Lupin or Harry. And Sirius knew that.
totyle - Oct 25, 2007 6:47 pm (#1701 of 1982)
Accio Sirius : He did not "bully" Harry in OoP. Bullying causes fear and anger. Sirius' comment about Harry not being like James was a guilt trip at best...
Agreed 100%. Which of us parents haven't at least once in our lives had the traitorous thought or worst said it out aloud to our kids.....why can't you be more like your elder/younger sibling? It's not right, not right at all but we're just human. In more ways than one it's Harry's tragedy that he looks like James. Sirius' and Snape's treatment of him is to a great degree influenced by this fact. Lupin/DD and other matured teachers did not have this problem of seeing past Harry's resemblence to his dad. Lupin acknowledges it but looks past it and sees Harry for himself. Sirius and Snape both lost people they loved very much and to have Harry turn up in their lives looking very much like their best friend/arch enemy blinded them in part. It's a flaw but as someone said earlier..shrug so we're all just human. And its easier for ME to forgive Sirius because he loved Harry despite his(Sirius') flaws whereas Snape seemed to take joy in (have to be very careful in my choice of words here!) taunting and putting down Harry.
wynnleaf - Oct 25, 2007 7:27 pm (#1702 of 1982)
And sorry wynnleaf, but I believe Sirius did have strong parental feelings for Harry in POA, acting as Godfather even while in hiding in POA, sending Harry the firebolt and sneaking in to watch him play Quidditch, risking recapture not to mention his life to save Harry from Wormtail. (Accio Sirius)
What I disagreed with was the notion that Sirius hated Snape as an adult because of Snape's attitude and actions toward Harry. While learning of Snape's attitude and actions toward Harry I'm sure would make Sirius hate Snape more, he clearly hated him before Snape even revealed himself in the Shrieking Shack scene -- before he'd seen Snape interact with Harry at all.
As regards Sirius' parental feelings toward Harry in POA, I don't think we see much evidence of it until after he met Harry. After all, supposedly he was well aware that Peter was living right there in the room with Ron and Harry, yet Sirius makes not the slightest attempt to send any message or warn anyone that a Death EAter and the betrayer of Harry's parents is right there with him. My impression was that he was far more focused on revenge on Pettigrew, than protecting Harry from Pettigrew.
Later, in GOF and OOTP, Sirius does not seem, in my opinion, to treat Harry in a parental manner, but more in the manner of someone searching for another "mate" like James. Sure, Sirius loved Harry and Harry loved Sirius, but Harry wanted a father-figure and Sirius really wasn't one.
It is as bad as Snape's taunting of Harry being as arrogant as his father, arguably worse as Sirius is an adult whom Harry respects. (PeskyPixie)
While I agree with you, I'd go further. Sirius in not only someone Harry respects, but Sirius was also James' best friend and the person besides Lily who presumably knew James the best. For Sirius to tell Harry that he's nothing like his father could easily have been devastating. Though we know that Dumbledore considered Harry much more like Lily, even Dumbledore makes an effort to point out positive similarities to Harry between himself and James.
Hogwarts Class of 85 - Oct 26, 2007 12:41 am (#1703 of 1982)
I am not sure how a convicted felon who has managed to escape from prison could get a message through to anyone that a "hero" that he killed many years ago in front of witnesses was actually (a) alive, (b) a death eater and (c) living as a rat with Harry's best friend in their shared dormroom.
In terms of him not having parental feelings for Harry in POA, I think that the fact he sought out Harry in Little Whinging so he could just see him before he continued his journey in POA is some testament to his feelings for Harry.
wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2007 3:06 am (#1704 of 1982)
I didn't say he didn't have feelings toward Harry. I question whether they were parental feelings.
Accio Sirius - Oct 26, 2007 5:20 am (#1705 of 1982)
Peskypixie said:
"I'm sorry, but telling an orphan that he's nothing like his admirable father is about the lowest thing one can do as that child's godparent."
I don't think your being fair here. Sirius didn't say Harry wasn't admirable like his father. That, I'm guessing is your interpretation of what he said. What I get from this exchange is that he was disappointed that Harry didn't want to sneak off to Hogsmeade with him like his father probably would, so he guilt trips him or almost dares him to do it--basically saying, "your father would have." Was it smart, was it adult of him? No, but to say that he was universally slamming Harry's overall character as a human, in my opinion, is unfair. Of course, it was short-sided of Sirius because when he and James were at Hogwarts and sneaking off, things weren't nearly as dangerous.
As for why Sirius would hate Snape in general: I think if Lily, someone who was friends with Snape and had the potential to love him (that's according to a JKR interview, not cannon), would cut all ties with Snape, then the implication is that Snape and his DE buddies did more than enough stuff to make Sirius hate him. Again, some of this stuff we learn from interviews with JKR, so yeah, if you are going strictly by cannon, sure, there wasn't a lot to go on as to why Sirius hated Snape so much.
Please keep in mind, I don't mean any of this adversarially. The main reason I feel compelled to defend Sirius here is that for the years that I have been posting here, Snape fans have always insisted pre-DH that we read between the lines about Snape. The arguments for his ultimate motives were always implied and interpreted. I just think Sirius deserves the same consideration and shouldn't be taken quite so literally. He didn't live long enough to have all of his motives played out.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 6:09 am (#1706 of 1982)
Edited Oct 26, 2007 7:12 am
Well, Wynnleaf and Accio Sirius have suggested that Sirius hated Snape for what he was, not for anything particular that he did. I suppose this could have been the case, although I wish Rowling had made it clearer in the text. We know from canon that Snape was a bigot, into the Dark Arts, and on the Junior Death Eater track. This was during the First War, when Voldemort and his Death Eaters were murdering and disappearing people. This alone could have lead to Sirius's dislike for Snape to grow into loathing, if Snape had come to represent everything Sirius hated about the bigoted zeal of that cause. Snape was in the same year at Hogwarts as Sirius, and Snape may have been the face of those bigots in that particular class. I think Sirius's personality is somewhat "family affair"-- things that happen in his sphere he sees as his business to take care of, like protecting Lily and James, or killing Peter Pettigrew. So, taking all this into consideration, perhaps it is likely that Sirius would loathe Snape as the representative in his year of Voldemort's bigoted cause.
Edited: because I had added something as an edit, but then decided to make it a separate post because Barbara J had posted while I was editing, but apparently I didn't delete the part I moved, so now I am.
Barbara J - Oct 26, 2007 6:11 am (#1707 of 1982)
I think we also have to look at the effect Sirius' comments had on Harry. Maybe they could have been devastating (I don't go that far, but just for the sake of argument), but they weren't. Maybe temporarily upsetting, but they did not send Harry into a tailspin, and he and Sirius went on with their relationship afterwards. I think it's unfair to Sirius to label his comment as the equivalent of Snape's taunting.
The "unhinged in Azkaban route" sounds like a big rationalization, but I think it's fair to cut Sirius a little slack on that account. He went into prison quite young, almost immediately after James died, and he has never had the opportunity to deal with that in a normal way. He gets out of prison, finds the spitting image of his best friend, and has a little bit of trouble separating the two. But I think he was trying to develop a family relationship -- if not parental, then certainly an older/younger brother type of relationship. I think he would have gotten past seeing Harry as a long-lost pal, if he had lived long enough.
ETA: Mrs. Brisbee, we were cross-posting, but I think you have a good point. I still have trouble understanding the depth of Sirius' loathing for Snape, though. Someone suggested that some of the explanation might have ended up on the cutting room floor, so to speak, and I guess I'll just have to accept it without fully understanding it.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 6:32 am (#1708 of 1982)
Yeah, I think the longer, more detailed explanation was cut.
From an earlier post:
I agree that Sirius' mood swings have a different effect on Harry than Snape's dislike, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. We need to learn that people we love can be angry with us and still love us -- Harry has never had love from anyone; he certainly didn't learn anything about healthy relationships from the Dursleys. --Barbara J
I agree. I don't think our options are simply Oh what a horrible bullying loser! or He's so wonderful and perfect! Like Accio Sirius and Totyle said, it was a guilt trip; it was unfair and sulky, but it doesn't encompass the whole of Sirius's interactions with Harry ever, before or after. Guess what, Sirius, Harry isn't James! Guess what, Harry, Sirius has realized that you're not James, and he's being sulky and childish right now! Barbara J's point is a good one: there are times when it isn't all peaches and roses with our loved ones, but that doesn't stop them being family, or learning and growing. Harry is the star of the show, and he of course is bothered by what Sirius says. But Harry learns to understand Sirius, and he always values the love he and Sirius had for each other. Harry can take lessons from Sirius's good qualities and his bad qualities because he is able to love him but learns to see him as he is. This whole story has been about Harry growing, and in the end Harry takes many valuable lessons away from his time with Sirius.
Hogwarts Class of 85 - Oct 26, 2007 6:59 am (#1709 of 1982)
I must agree with Mrs. Brisbee - Sirius and Snape were in school together during the rise of Voldemort. Snape had allied himself with people whose beliefs Sirius found reprehensible.
You have to remember that Sirius's brother is being held up as a paragon at home for holding these values so it is not too much a stretch to see why Sirius would come to loathe Snape.
wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2007 7:14 am (#1710 of 1982)
You have to remember that Sirius's brother is being held up as a paragon at home for holding these values so it is not too much a stretch to see why Sirius would come to loathe Snape. (Hogwarts Class of 85)
I think this is a good theory that doesn't have, as far as I can recall, anything in canon that is evidence against it.
The notion that Sirius thought Snape a bigot and therefore hated him is odd since neither Sirius nor Lupin ever say that Snape had pureblood politics. It is only Lily that comments on Snape using the "mudblood" term. She felt, I suppose from comments by Snape, that he was interested in eventually following LV. But Sirius is unlikely to have known that because he said in GOF that there had never been a hint of Snape becoming a DE, even though he hung out with some of that crowd while in school.
Nor do I really take the interest in Dark Arts as the big reason to loathe Snape. Apparently lots of the students in Slytherin were interested in them. Lily commented directly to Snape about laughing about a friend's Dark Arts joke. Surely if she'd known of Snape doing Dark Arts himself she'd have used that in her conversation rather than his laughing at someone else using them. Obviously Snape did some things with Dark Arts at school, but it doesn't seem to have been as much as his friends or Lily would have commented.
So Dark Arts interests don't, in my opinion, explain Sirius particular loathing of Snape. It doesn't seem like Sirius and James were out trying to attack all the other Darker Slytherins. They seem to have a special liking for bullying Snape. Yes, they hexed lots of people, but even Lupin and Sirius confirm that there was special animosity with Snape, which in my opinion isn't explained by Snape having tendencies in areas that Sirius and James despised, when so many other students had apparently far more obvious tendencies in those directions and Sirius and James were not specifically targeting those students.
Denise P. - Oct 26, 2007 8:36 am (#1711 of 1982)
It could also be that there is no particular reason why Sirius loathes Snape so much. Some people take an instant dislike to someone and it just grows from there. The fact that Snape stood for everything Sirius despised probably contributed to his dislike and every encounter with Snape caused it to grow more. As an adult, it could be that he may have attempted to put aside these possibly unfounded feelings but after seeing Harry and hearing about his treatment by Snape, it just woke them back up and confirmed and reinforced his feelings. There are some people you just don't like but it is not always possible to pinpoint why you don't like them.
Sometimes a rose is just a rose.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 8:44 am (#1712 of 1982)
The notion that Sirius thought Snape a bigot and therefore hated him is odd since neither Sirius nor Lupin ever say that Snape had pureblood politics. It is only Lily that comments on Snape using the "mudblood" term. She felt, I suppose from comments by Snape, that he was interested in eventually following LV. But Sirius is unlikely to have known that because he said in GOF that there had never been a hint of Snape becoming a DE, even though he hung out with some of that crowd while in school.-- wynnleaf
Sirius-- as well as a crowd of students-- heard Snape call Lily "Mudblood". Afterward, Lily informs us that Snape call everyone of her birth "Mudblood". I don't think Snape's bigotry was exactly a secret. During school Sirius's loathing for Snape would grow because of the ideology he was demonstrating, the same idealogy favored by Voldemort and his Death Eaters. Later, in GoF, Sirius does say Snape was never discovered to be a Death Eater, but he also says that it doesn't prove much because plenty of people got away with it. In GoF, Dumbledore has vouched for Snape. Sirius is dubious about the claim that Snape is trustworthy, but he specifically says that he doesn't think Dumbledore would have hired Snape if Snape had worked for Voldemort. Before GoF, Sirius didn't have Dumbledore's vouch for Snape. After GoF, Sirius knows that Snape was in Voldemort's camp, and Dumbledore hired him anyway. The tempered view of Snape was only a one book thing, and only existed because of a belief that Dumbledore wouldn't let a former Death Eater into the castle.
Nor do I really take the interest in Dark Arts as the big reason to loathe Snape. Apparently lots of the students in Slytherin were interested in them. Lily commented directly to Snape about laughing about a friend's Dark Arts joke. Surely if she'd known of Snape doing Dark Arts himself she'd have used that in her conversation rather than his laughing at someone else using them. Obviously Snape did some things with Dark Arts at school, but it doesn't seem to have been as much as his friends or Lily would have commented.
In GoF Sirius also said Snape was "famous" for his Dark Arts at school, so I take from the mouth of Sirius that this was Sirius's view of Snape. We know Snape is talented and intelligent, and we know Snape even created his own signature Dark Arts spell-- Lupin comments on it after it permanently severs George's ear-- so I'll wager he really was a standout in his gang. Moreover, Lily herself says she has been making excuses for Snape for years, and indicates that others have a far less favorable view of Snape than she does. It is the comments during and after SWM where we see her stop making excuses and tell it like it is, that Snape desires to be a Death Eater.
Is it enough to explain Sirius's loathing of Snape? I'm beginning to think it is, considering the context of the war.
PeskyPixie - Oct 26, 2007 9:01 am (#1713 of 1982)
In GoF Sirius says that Snape used to hang out with kids who later became Death Eaters, but he does not know whether Snape becomes one or not. The only descriptions of Snape as an individual are "slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid" and "up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts". But, I believe, to Sirius this is enough despise somebody ... perhaps it is, but not to me.
Personally, I too would be interested in the Dark Arts. I would never use them as I've fortunately had a good upbringing, but I would like to learn about them in theory. I get the impression from canon that this interest alone would cause Sirius to dislike me, without getting to know my actual intentions. Everything is either black or white for him.
I don't really want to bring this up but as it is relevant to the discussion, I feel for both Sirius and Snape as I've been in Lily's position in high school. My Marauders were wonderful young men, loved by teachers and students alike, however they were extremely intolerant of my little Snape (who had a poor upbringing, nasty streak, the works). He, unfortunately, went very bad. Up to this day, my Marauders feel justified in their treatment of Snape simply because he was a bit weird.
As for Sirius's comment, I've never claimed that Sirius is a lousy person and an abusive godfather, rather, I love him and feel for him a great deal. However, that comment should not be minimized. Negatively comparing an orphan to his dead father? The only way Sirius can get out of this one is to plead insanity/arrested development. No one denies Sirius's love for Harry, but guilt-tripping a kid to break rules is just bad parenting.
Sirius experiences far too much hardship in his short life. The scene in the Forbidden Forest (DH) gives closure to his tragic life, and fills me with joy that he is at peace in a better place now.
I just hope he behaves and lays off Snape up/over there. Just imagine if DD has to start handing out detentions in the afterlife!
Orion - Oct 1, 2007 2:19 pm (#1652 of 1982)
Thanks maria! It gives me a pang to even read the name. This is the first and only time I ever felt pain over the death of a fictional character. Peculiar, very peculiar.
PeskyPixie - Oct 1, 2007 2:26 pm (#1653 of 1982)
Orion, are you sure it has nothing to do with Sirius's 'great good looks'? And I thought you said you were off to bed!
Snuffles - Oct 1, 2007 2:27 pm (#1654 of 1982)
Orion, do as I do. Just pick up book 1 and start all over again. Just try to avoid chapter 35 in OOTP!! If you didn't read it, it never happened!!
PeskyPixie - Oct 1, 2007 2:30 pm (#1655 of 1982)
Snuffles, that's what try I do about Snape's death!
Orion - Oct 2, 2007 7:03 am (#1656 of 1982)
Me too. It has never happened ladidah it has never happened...
I posted this ten seconds later than the hangman and then I went to bed, honestly!
PeskyPixie - Oct 21, 2007 2:52 pm (#1657 of 1982)
I've posted the following on the James and Lily thread in the past, but feel it applies better here.
My best friend and I are as close as James and Sirius. We even became fast friends upon meeting at approximately the same age that James and Sirius befriend one another aboard the Hogwarts Express.
If my friend and I found ourselves in the same position as Sirius and James (I as Sirius and she as James), if DD informed her that there is a rat amongst our circle of unbelievably close friends and that they should trust no one but DD as secretkeeper, I would urge her to choose DD as secretkeeper as nobody is to be trusted with the life of my godchild. I would never trust my own judgement and instinct when a person of DD's skill has offered to protect the life of the child I love. This is a very foolish decision on Sirius's part, although it exemplifies his character perfectly.
Let the rants begin ...
wynnleaf - Oct 21, 2007 6:06 pm (#1658 of 1982)
I certainly won't rant about it!
And did you notice JKR commenting, in New York I think, that Harry would make a lot better godfather than Sirius?
mona amon - Oct 21, 2007 9:40 pm (#1659 of 1982)
I too agree with you wholeheartedly, PeskyPixie!
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 21, 2007 10:42 pm (#1660 of 1982)
Well! I guess I am going to have to Pesky. (I must defend my Sirius' honor).
Sirius is a valiant man. He is self confident. He knows that right is right and wrong is wrong. Siding with the dark side is wrong and being loyal to your friends is right. Sirius knows and has said that he would rather die than betray his friends. He would rather die!
As a parent I can say, and here is were I would critize Sirius, he is young, he is naive. At the age that Sirius took the secret keeper oath, he was still young enough that death was a far of thing, it was not real. Death wouldn't happen to a smart, young, strong man. Even if other people are dying, death simply is not going to happen to you.
As a parent I can see now how at that age one feel's invincible. But as we get older, and have our own children, that invincibility starts to crack. After you are the parent and that child is yours, to protect one starts to feel much more vulnerable.
Sirius know he would never go to the dark side. He knew he was smart and strong. Sirius has been described as reckless at some point. It would not occur to him that the dark side could get him.
legolas returns - Oct 22, 2007 12:01 am (#1661 of 1982)
Harry calms down a little towards the end of the book and does not rush to get the wand. He wonders if he made the correct decision. I am sure that Sirius would have charged in there and not thought of the consequences. Sirius would have acted and thought later.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 22, 2007 7:03 am (#1662 of 1982)
Yes, Sirius is, well, a bit rash. But I still love him. He is straight forward, simple right is right, wrong is wrong. He is not one of those complicated men for whom discussion can go on forever and still no conclusive view points.
Again he is not stupid or unsophisticated, he is just very clear on his views and his motives are always above board.
(meooow phsst)
legolas returns - Oct 22, 2007 10:28 am (#1663 of 1982)
I never said that I disliked him. I thought that he was very lovable and he would have been fun.
PeskyPixie - Oct 22, 2007 10:56 am (#1664 of 1982)
I've found my original post regarding this issue. It explains my point of view better than I expressed myself in my previous post. Here it is:
James and Lily act as true Gryffindors in their loyalty to their friends. However, they should have been more concerned about the fact that a dark wizard was targeting them and one of their friends kept on leaking information about them to the enemy. Anybody in the magical world would desire Albus Dumbledore's protection in such a situation. Even Snape sought out Dumbledore as his best hope of protecting Lily.
James and Sirius act very true to their natures when they decline Dumbledore's protection and cook up their own scheme. I do consider the Potters' decision as disregarding DD's lead; one of three is a rat (i.e. a traitor, not Peter's animagus form) who is a danger to their baby, yet they just choose to guess at who he is? Sirius would be far more responsible if he would've instead talked James into accepting Dumbledore as secret-keeper, reminding him that no one is to be trusted with his godson's life until the snitch in the Order is discovered. A sad situation, yes, but this is war and the Potters' baby is at the centre of it. Seclusion under Dumbledore's protection until the traitor is caught is not a huge price to pay for the ultimate safety of one's baby.
I feel this way as my best friend and I are as close as James and Sirius; we are family. If she were in James' situation I (as best friend and godmother to her child) would opt for her (and her family's) protection by someone with greater ability than myself, even if that would mean not seeing her for a few years (or ever, if I were to die in the war). Then again, perhaps that is just the Slytherin in me.
Also, I do not believe that youth alone motivates Sirius's decision. He is passionate by nature; he acts with his heart ... not always the smartest thing to do, but undoubtedly noble.
PeskyPixie - Oct 23, 2007 3:14 pm (#1665 of 1982)
No one wants to discuss Sirius any longer? Oh, shucks.
Orion - Oct 24, 2007 6:45 am (#1666 of 1982)
Well, he's dead anyway...
Barbara J - Oct 24, 2007 8:46 am (#1667 of 1982)
PeskyPixie, I think you summed it up very well when you said James and Sirius both acted "true to their natures." But I think it's comparing apples and oranges to say that Harry would be a better godfather than Sirius was. Sirius really never had a chance. And I would not be surprised if Harry responded to any youthful misbehavior of Teddy's with a wink and a pat on the back. He may have learned to control some of his impulsiveness, but part of his nature is, as DD once noted, a certain disregard for the rules. So yes, Harry will probably be a more responsible godfather, but it's easier to be responsible when you haven't just escaped from prison and the whole WW doesn't think you're a mass murderer.
PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 10:39 am (#1668 of 1982)
Well, he's dead anyway... -Orion
Yes, but so are Dumbledore and Snape (no, no I'm still in denial!) but their threads are constantly moving. I thought you loved this man and would do anything to defend him! For shame, Orion ...
Honestly, I did not expect Sirius's fans to take my 'attack' on his character so calmly! You should see us Snape fans on the Snape thread ... and our guy does some pretty nasty things! I can just see Severus sneering at Sirius in the afterlife.
azi - Oct 24, 2007 11:03 am (#1669 of 1982)
I always feel the Snape fans are a dangerous and ferocious group, to be avoided on pain of death. Sirius fans are more laid back (or maybe just used to him being dead? Alas, whenever I read his lines in OotP I get upset just thinking about his death).
The thing about Sirius is that he's a less complex character than Snape or Dumbledore. He motives were very clear from the start. DD and Snape are less obvious. Yes, Sirius has issues, negative characteristics etc., but they don't really affect the overall plot of the series. DD and Snape are debatable in their motives and their effects on the plot, even if the debates tend to go round in circles.
PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 11:07 am (#1670 of 1982)
Ah, I just figured you guys would lie till you were blue in the face to cast off the negative side of his character! You are a very noble lot. I, however, am a 'dangerous and ferocious' Snape fan and shall now return to my homeship!
Accio Sirius - Oct 24, 2007 11:21 am (#1671 of 1982)
Part of the problem is that I think JKR often just writes off Sirius as someone with "flaws." She says that just about every time she mentions him. Many of those said flaws were the result of a great injustice he endured, which resulted in stunted emotional growth. But he still does pretty well in my book. I think after JKR realized how many fans responded to Sirius as a character--maybe because he was one of the few she describes as really handsome--she kind of had to down play him off a bit. His character flaws, while irksome and rather immature at times, I think they rank rather low compared to those of some other characters. I know a lot of Snape fans really dislike Sirius and often talk about the werewolf incident at Hogwarts as a murder attempt. I don't think Sirius really thought of it like that. It was a hasty impulsive response. Not a premeditated act. If you read his passages in the books, you hear him quip sarcastically a lot and I always took the Snape incident as, "yeah, you wanna know what's going on? Go look for yourself." But that's just me. I really didn't become a fan of Sirius until Order of the Phoenix when it was clear how deeply parental he felt for Harry. Sirius maybe lacked good judgment when it came to his own safety, but he always had Harry's best interest at heart. And I think Harry makes a good godfather because he had Sirius as one. Look how important Sirius--with all said flaws--was to Harry. I'm sure he wanted to be able to give that and more to Teddy.
Orion - Oct 24, 2007 11:38 am (#1672 of 1982)
Just used to him being dead - ROTFL! Pesky, I love whom exactly?
PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 12:08 pm (#1673 of 1982)
You claimed to be heartbroken over Sirius's death in a previous post, so I figured you'd want to defend him. (Gary Oldman is mine, by the way )
Orion - Oct 24, 2007 12:38 pm (#1674 of 1982)
Aha. Good to know. One's always the last one to find out. As for "still in denial": Yes! (Wrong thread, wrong thread...) If we all breathe very cautiously and don't make any sudden movements, she will write book eight (Harry Potter and the very very secret department) which starts in the Great Hall immediately when HRH have returned from DD's office, and a whey-faced and very disgruntled (well, nothing new here) Snape staggers in, clutching at his neck, and snarls at Harry "thought I was done for, didn't you Potter? Well I have news for you - there were a few VERY useful spells in the last pages you were too slow to snaffle, and for the minutes, that was the last time I saved your spotty bum! That's it, I'm off." and then walks, staggers or crawls to the nearest exit and leaves this pestilential school for good. So hold your breath...
PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 12:51 pm (#1675 of 1982)
Yay, Orion! I'm going to use this ending from now on.
I'd make up a different ending for Sirius for you (one where he's just hiding behind the veil), but JKR has already shown him to us, chilling with his buddies in the afterlife!
wynnleaf - Oct 24, 2007 12:55 pm (#1676 of 1982)
Okay, here's a question about Sirius. Why did he avoid Slytherin?
In The Prince's Tale, we are shown Sirius and James on their way to Hogwarts on the train.
Here's my interpretation of Sirius at that point. He seemed to be chatting with James and getting along. The subject of Houses came up when Snape and Lily talk about it and Snape mentions Slytherin. James makes a disparaging remark about Slytherin. Sirius comments that all of his family had been in Slytherin.
James commented that up until that point, he'd thought Sirius was alright -- firmly implying that the notion that Sirius could end up in Slytherin would probably put an end to their budding friendship. Sirius' response was to comment that maybe he'd buck family tradition.
Now why did Sirius say this? Up until James implied that going into Slytherin would ruin their budding friendship, Sirius had no negative comments about Slytherin or given any indication that he might avoid that House.
Fans tend to think that Sirius had always been opposed to Dark Arts and that's why he didn't go into Slytherin.
But my interpretation of what was going on during the train ride is that Sirius, a natural "rebel" type anyway, really liked his new friend James and was quite willing to rebel against the family traditions in order to keep his new friend.
While Sirius may have later developed a healthy dislike of the Dark Arts, I think opposition to the Dark Arts, for 11 year old Sirius, probably had nothing to do with his choice of House.
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 24, 2007 1:01 pm (#1677 of 1982)
I know a lot of Snape fans really dislike Sirius and often talk about the werewolf incident at Hogwarts as a murder attempt. I don't think Sirius really thought of it like that. Accio Sirius
Oh, please, that was no murder attempt, that was just Snape's melodrama. The worst that would have happened is that Lupin would have given him a couple of little bites and Snape would have become a werewolf.
Look at Bill, he survived just fine.
PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 1:07 pm (#1678 of 1982)
This is comparing apples and oranges. Fenrir is not transformed when he attacks Bill. Lupin, on the other hand, is supposed to be fully transformed (don't ask me how it works as this is JKR's story) which is how Snape comes to know of his ailment.
The worst that would have happened is that Lupin would have given him a couple of little bites and Snape would have become a werewolf. -Mrs. Sirius
I assume you're joking?
wynnleaf, I will get back to the ideas presented in your post in a little while (you just give us so much to think of!).
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 24, 2007 10:55 pm (#1679 of 1982)
If you have to explain a joke than is isn't very funny, yes Pesky, I am joking. Pardon my feeble attempt at humor.:-;
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 6:13 am (#1680 of 1982)
I always feel the Snape fans are a dangerous and ferocious group, to be avoided on pain of death. Sirius fans are more laid back-- azi
Lol, I was thinking the same thing reading this thread a couple of days ago. I was just feeling too lazy and laid back to type up a reply!
Part of the problem is that I think JKR often just writes off Sirius as someone with "flaws." She says that just about every time she mentions him. Many of those said flaws were the result of a great injustice he endured, which resulted in stunted emotional growth. But he still does pretty well in my book. I think after JKR realized how many fans responded to Sirius as a character--maybe because he was one of the few she describes as really handsome--she kind of had to down play him off a bit. His character flaws, while irksome and rather immature at times, I think they rank rather low compared to those of some other characters. I know a lot of Snape fans really dislike Sirius and often talk about the werewolf incident at Hogwarts as a murder attempt. I don't think Sirius really thought of it like that. It was a hasty impulsive response. Not a premeditated act. If you read his passages in the books, you hear him quip sarcastically a lot and I always took the Snape incident as, "yeah, you wanna know what's going on? Go look for yourself." But that's just me. I really didn't become a fan of Sirius until Order of the Phoenix when it was clear how deeply parental he felt for Harry. Sirius maybe lacked good judgment when it came to his own safety, but he always had Harry's best interest at heart. And I think Harry makes a good godfather because he had Sirius as one. Look how important Sirius--with all said flaws--was to Harry. I'm sure he wanted to be able to give that and more to Teddy. --Accio Sirius
Great post. Sirius wasn't one of my favorite characters until recently. I've been listening to the audiobooks with my daughter and we've just finished OotP. I was surprised by how much I liked the man this time through. Now that the series has ended, I can really appreciate the gifts he gave Harry: Always fight for what's right. Never give up. Some things are worth dying for. If your godchild needs you, you be there for him, no matter how difficult it is. He's one of those rare characters who loved life and wasn't afraid of death. Not even dementors could stop him (unhinged him a bit, yes, but they couldn't stop him living). Now that I see the series through the paradigm of learning to accept a place for both life and death, Sirius's life and death takes on a much more important role in the plot than I originally estimated.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 8:40 am (#1681 of 1982)
If you have to explain a joke than is isn't very funny, yes Pesky, I am joking. Pardon my feeble attempt at humor.:-; -Mrs. Sirius
Sorry about that. I was in a rush the last time, so I went back to re-read your post and got it this time around. Hey, better late than never, right?
I like Sirius, but his flaws really bother me as they often create devastating results which we readers love to overlook as he's a 'good guy'. Sirius is in no way a good godfather at all times. His bullying of Harry in OotP ("You're a lot less like your father than I thought") in downright disgusting. We condemn Snape for bullying Harry while he is James's enemy, but we fail to realize that bullying from his father's best friend (who happens to be his godfather) is far more detrimental to Harry's development. Oh yes, Sirius is in prison for most of his adult life. That's what turns him into a bullying daredevil. He was a lamb before he went to Azkaban.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 9:21 am (#1682 of 1982)
I like Sirius, but his flaws really bother me as they often create devastating results which we readers love to overlook as he's a 'good guy'.-- PeskyPixie
I don't think readers love to overlook Sirius's flaws. He has flaws. He's also a good guy. ***shrug***. He's human.
We condemn Snape for bullying Harry while he is James's enemy, but we fail to realize that bullying from his father's best friend (who happens to be his godfather) is far more detrimental to Harry's development.
Certainly Sirius's opinion of Harry will matter to Harry far more than Snape's will, and Sirius thus has far more potential to influence Harry for good or ill because of that. I think Sirius did have a tremendous impact--mostly good-- on Harry. Sure, Sirius had a few issues with seeing Harry separate from James, but we also see Molly Weasley call him on it in front of Harry. Of course this will matter more to Harry and have more impact on him than Snape's random hostility. But I find thinking about it in terms of Snape sort of goes no where. It's actually an interesting topic because I can see how Sirius's attitude influenced Harry's decisions and development. I thought the first time I read OotP that it was a good move on Rowling's part to kill off Sirius, but now I can see it was much deeper than that.
Orion - Oct 25, 2007 10:50 am (#1683 of 1982)
In OOP Molly is wrong and Sirius is right. If they had been open with Harry instead of treating him like a child (after all he's gone through) the tragedy at the ministry wouldn't have happened. And you can't accuse Sirius of "bullying" Harry, just because of one single sentence. Sirius is absolutely devoted to Harry and gives him more unconditional love than anybody else does. One outburst of disappointment must be allowed some time! I find it very hard to criticise a man who went through such a hell and lost so many years of his life.
But when it comes to Sirius versus Snape, I'm naturally on Snape's side - yes, it was a murder attempt, and it's not unthinkable. In my country we have lots and lots of teenage killings (nearly all of them male) over petty rows. Primates!
wynnleaf - Oct 25, 2007 11:16 am (#1684 of 1982)
Sirius' flaws by and large don't stem from Azkaban. It's just that being in Azkaban, he was sort of stunted and therefore didn't grow out of some flaws that he might (not necessarily would ) have grown out of if he'd not been in Azkaban. Many bullies, after all, remain bullies even without having dreadful calamaties occur to stunt their maturing process.
What bothers me most about Sirius and the werewolf prank is three-fold. 1. Sirius pulled that prank with complete disregard for how it might affect his supposedly good friend Lupin. 2. Apparently Sirius didn't learn a single thing from it. The Worst Memory scene must have happened just months after the Prank, yet Sirius and James are both amazingly lacking in circumspection regarding Lupin's condition. And they are still quite ready to bully and torment Snape for no reason other than Sirius' boredom and because Snape exists. Further, they are still completely happy with getting Lupin out on full moon nights to roam the country-side, even though they had recently had a near death on their hands. 3. Even years later, after leaving Azkaban a year before, and even though he hadn't seen or had anything to do with Snape for years Sirius, immediately upon hearing Snape mentioned, began asserting that Snape had deserved that prank, just because he was sneaking around trying to get them expelled (not that it's hard to blame Snape for wanting such bullies out of the school). It seemed to me that Sirius was making it clear that he'd always thought Snape deserved it, even after the Prank came to near disaster.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 11:19 am (#1685 of 1982)
In OOP Molly is wrong and Sirius is right. If they had been open with Harry instead of treating him like a child (after all he's gone through) the tragedy at the ministry wouldn't have happened.-- Orion
I meant that Molly was right about Sirius sometimes acting like he had got his best friend back, instead of always treating Harry like his godson. Sirius was of course right about giving Harry information. I'm glad Sirius did what he did at dinner at Grimmauld place that first night. Dumbledore had usurped much of the power of guardian for Harry, and wasn't doing such a great job at it. Sirius manages to assert a little bit of authority, and does some good with it. Too bad he wasn't able to keep it up. That letter from Dumbledore to Sirius about the occlumency lessons was like a slap to Sirius. After that Sirius was pretty much out of touch with Harry.
Edited to add: The werewolf prank bothers me because it is never explained. We know why Snape loathes Sirius, but she never explains why Sirius has an equally strong loathing for Snape. We know Sirius told Snape how to get into the Whomping Willow, but we also know that Snape already suspected Lupin was a werewolf. We know that Dumbledore hushed things up, but we don't know why Snape decided he would keep this secret about a werewolf and a supposed attempted murder, especially when he later makes clear that he believed Lupin was in on it. None of it adds up, so I'm not ready to pull out the violins for poor, poor Snape. Why would he be so trusting of Dumbledore if he really thought Sirius was trying to murder him and Dumbledore was covering it up? It doesn't make sense. I suspect Snape wasn't so innocent in all this. But Rowling doesn't give us much information, unfortunately.
Orion - Oct 25, 2007 11:22 am (#1686 of 1982)
Yes, and he continues to bully and taunt Snape in OOP. When I read that confrontation in 12GP, I'd like to thrash Sirius. He immediately falls back on teenage level, and he has no reason at all to do that. The "mutual dislike" isn't explained - Snape has every reason to loathe him, but what reason does Sirius have? (Apart from showing solidarity with Harry, but then he doesn't know what a nuisance Harry is as a student, and even if he knew, he wouldn't be bothered, but he would egg Harry on.)
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 11:31 am (#1687 of 1982)
The "mutual dislike" isn't explained - Snape has every reason to loathe him, but what reason does Sirius have?
That's what I would have liked to know. When Lupin mentions Snape's name in the Shrieking Shack, Sirius actually looks away from Pettigrew. That's some serious dislike. Alas, it is never explained. It's one of those gaps in the story that weaken it, in my opinion.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 11:33 am (#1688 of 1982)
Snape has every reason to loathe him, but what reason does Sirius have? -Orion
Snape is a scrawny, unkempt, loner of an eleven-year-old who wants to be placed in Slytherin House. This is the original reason for Sirius's hatred of Snape and he feels justified in it.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 11:42 am (#1689 of 1982)
That makes no sense. Sirius is distracted by Snape's name in the Shrieking Shack because Snape dressed funny when he was 11? I'm not buying it.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 11:46 am (#1690 of 1982)
"Snape is a scrawny, unkempt, loner of an eleven-year-old who wants to be placed in Slytherin House." I used the words "scrawny" and "unkempt" as I don't like describing children as "ugly" or "greasy".
From 'the Prince's Tale' I got the idea that the encounter aboard the Hogwarts Express sets up the enmity between Snape and Sirius/James; it's a long 'snowball effect' after that. Maybe I've missed something.
What then is Sirius's original reason for disliking Snape?
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 25, 2007 12:17 pm (#1691 of 1982)
Sorry, it sounded to me like you were answering Orion's question by saying the adult Sirius felt justified for hating Snape because he looked funny and wanted to be in Slytherin when they were eleven. Yes, I do know they took a dislike to each other on the train. But Rowling shows the Marauders bullying Snape as teenagers, thereby establishing a reason for Snape to loathe Sirius. But Sirius shows an equal loathing for Snape. Snape's name alone is enough to distract him from Pettigrew, the traitor who is responsible for the murder of Sirius's best friends and his being blamed and incarcerated for a crime he didn't commit for 12 years. Why does Sirius have such remarkable enmity towards Snape? Rowling never tells us, and in my opinion it is a serious gap in the tale.
This quote is from Rowling at the World Day Book Chat, March 4, 2004:
Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow?
JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course.
That seems to indicate that there is more to it yet to be revealed, but I don't think whatever it was made it into the final cut of the series.
wynnleaf - Oct 25, 2007 12:47 pm (#1692 of 1982)
We did find out more about the Prank "in due course." A bit. We found out it happened before the Worst Memory scene. When Lily asked James "what's he done to you?" James didn't go into some excuse about how awful Snape had been to the Marauders. He had no particular excuse. Sure, I suppose there could have been some separate thing that Snape did only to Sirius that made Sirius hate him. But we aren't given any reason for James' dislike of Snape -- in fact, we're clearly shown that he was willing to dislike (or Sirius) for no other reason than that he would end up in Slytherin. Why does Sirius have to have a more complex reason that involves some fault on Snape's part?
Sirius, unlike James, has numerous scenes in POA, GOF, and OOTP where he could have offered up a greater reason to dislike Snape than being "up to his ears" in the Dark Arts. Yet he never gives such a reason. Wouldn't Lupin have known about it if Snape had done something terrible to Sirius? Yet we get no indication from Lupin or Sirius that there's more to Snape's school-time actions than an interest in Dark Arts and hanging out with a bad crowd.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 1:31 pm (#1693 of 1982)
Edited Oct 25, 2007 2:06 pm
Sirius's dislike of anything associated with Slytherin and the Dark Arts causes him to hate Severus. Coupled with his alpha personality no further explanation is necessary for his treatment of Snape.
Sirius feels justified in his behaviour as, after all, in the grander scheme of the world he picks the 'good side'. It's the classic example of schoolyard bullying, where the cool kids pick on the 'weirder' ones. But in this case, the weird one has some tricks up his sleeve as well.
Accio Sirius - Oct 25, 2007 3:53 pm (#1694 of 1982)
The whole shrieking shack incident, I don't feel has been fully explained, but several things have been implied. Snape was deeply jealous of James for so many reasons so it seems that Snape took great effort and pleasure to try to catch him in something (of which the Marauders most likely provided many opportunities--perhaps to prove to Lily what a jerk James could be. I've always imagined the same adversarial relationship between Snape and the Marauders as HRH and Malfoy et al.
As for what reason does the adult Sirius have for hating Snape? For a second I thought you were joking.
Sirius thinks of Harry like a son and Snape pours all of his hatred for James out on Harry. That's immaturity to rival any of Sirius' behavior. That's not even to mention the fact that Snape was willing to turn Sirius in knowing he was innocent. Just to be spiteful. As for Snape's treatment of Harry, if my daughter had a teacher that was as blatantly biased and cruel to her as Snape, I'd be fit to be tied. I thought Sirius was restrained.
Now, I don't want to sound like someone who will defend Sirius' every last action, but I feel compelled to at least defend the stuff that just gets heaped on him. He did not "bully" Harry in OoP. Bullying causes fear and anger. Sirius' comment about Harry not being like James was a guilt trip at best and that's exactly how Harry took it. He felt bad. Sirius was desperate for an emotional connection and felt like he could find it in Harry. I think he was profoundly disappointed that maybe Harry didn't feel that same bond, or maybe it was just that Harry had more sense than James and was just trying to keep his godfather out of trouble. Mind you, I didn't like the scene either, but the only time I am truly "disgusted" is reading about the way Snape treats Harry and often belittles Hermoine for sport. That's my definition of bullying.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 4:33 pm (#1695 of 1982)
Yes! I knew you Sirius fans had it in you! You just had to be goaded ... hmm, sounds familiar ...
Sirius's mood swings affect Harry far more than Snape's nastiness. Harry doesn't even take Snape seriously by OotP (he just hates being around him due to his, well, nastiness). Even in PoA we learn that Lupin's light scolding makes Harry feel far more guilty than Snape's ranting; in CoS, DD's disappointment at the flying Ford Anglia incident affects Harry far more than Snape's lecture. Similarly, a kid feels more hurt at not living up to a parental figure's expectations than at snide remarks my an adult they dislike to begin with.
In the Muggle world, adults talk to psychiatrists more often about parent issues than mean teachers encountered in school.
As for what reason does the adult Sirius have for hating Snape? For a second I thought you were joking. -Accio Sirius
To whom is this addressed and what specifically do you mean by it? Please elaborate.
Accio Sirius - Oct 25, 2007 5:12 pm (#1696 of 1982)
My, you are a peskypixie, egging us on like that!
. I'm glad for it since this thread often lies dormant for long periods of time. Sorry for not quoting the source originally: in post 1686 Orion said: "When I read that confrontation in 12GP, I'd like to thrash Sirius. He immediately falls back on teenage level, and he has no reason at all to do that. The "mutual dislike" isn't explained - Snape has every reason to loathe him, but what reason does Sirius have?"
See post 1694 for my response.
I think Lupin and Sirius have more of an effect on Harry because he knows that they reprimand, guilt trip, whatever out of love and affection. Harry doesn't have any respect for Snape because everything he heaps on him is out of petty hatred. Of course, I always thought that Harry should have at least tried killing Snape with kindness, but it just wasn't meant to be. Ultimately Snape did noble things but didn't take the most honorable route to get there. I think by the end, he had a clearer picture and when he's horrified by Dumbledore's plan for Harry in DH, that's when I finally felt like Snape came around. Again, I don't want to sound like an apologist here, but there's no way you can convince me that Sirius' personal faults were worse than anyone else's, especially after reading DH. I know DD was acting for the greater good in leading Harry down the path to his destiny, but up until this last book, I really thought Dumbledore had more parental affection for Harry. Now, I'm not so sure. Granted, Sirius probably wouldn't have been able to stand it if he knew what Harry had to do and that's why as a character he had to die.
wynnleaf - Oct 25, 2007 6:00 pm (#1697 of 1982)
Sirius thinks of Harry like a son and Snape pours all of his hatred for James out on Harry. That's immaturity to rival any of Sirius' behavior. That's not even to mention the fact that Snape was willing to turn Sirius in knowing he was innocent. (Accio Sirius)
Sorry, both of these are at least in part very incorrect.
Adult Sirius in POA hated Snape without the slightest knowledge of anything between Snape and Harry. Sure, by OOTP Sirius knows some of Snape's attitude toward Harry, but not before that. We get to see all of Harry's contact with Sirius in GOF and he didn't tell him during that year.
"That's not even to mention the fact that Snape was willing to turn Sirius in knowing he was innocent."
This is simply not correct. Snape didn't know Sirius was innocent. He didn't even hear the evidence that was given in the Shrieking Shack prior to his revealing himself. A careful look at the series of events shows us that after Snape entered under the cloak, the only things discussed were Lupin's betrayal of Dumbledore's trust and some other information that had nothing to do with Peter being the secret keeper. After Snape revealed himself, sure Lupin, Sirius and the kids were saying Snape should stop and listen, but none of them actually gave him any evidence. And even if they did, which one was Snape supposed to believe? The supposed murderer and Death Eater? Lupin who had just admitted in Snape's hearing to concealing vital information from Dumbledore that helped the supposed murderer run free? Or the kids who break rules right and left and, as children, could easily be susceptible to a confundus from either Lupin or Sirius?
Barbara J - Oct 25, 2007 6:12 pm (#1698 of 1982)
Snape and DD both have a calculating streak. Sirius is not calculating at all, and I don't think he could have stood it for a minute if DD told him that Harry had to die for LV to die. (Of course, after GoF, DD's calculating streak was allowing him to gamble that Harry would not really be killed, but he didn't share that with anyone.) I agree that Sirius' mood swings have a different effect on Harry than Snape's dislike, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. We need to learn that people we love can be angry with us and still love us -- Harry has never had love from anyone; he certainly didn't learn anything about healthy relationships from the Dursleys. Sirius might express disappointment with Harry, but he is still always there for him when it counts. Another somewhat related thought -- Harry has Hermione serving as a sort of "check" on some of the things Sirius says to him -- she keeps him grounded, to the extent he listens to her.
PeskyPixie - Oct 25, 2007 6:37 pm (#1699 of 1982)
I'm sorry, but telling an orphan that he's nothing like his admirable father is about the lowest thing one can do as that child's godparent. It is as bad as Snape's taunting of Harry being as arrogant as his father, arguably worse as Sirius is an adult whom Harry respects. The kid's lucky he's got a mature friend like Hermione!
I agree that Sirius' mood swings have a different effect on Harry than Snape's dislike, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. We need to learn that people we love can be angry with us and still love us -Barbara J
Lupin and Dumbledore have fair reasons to be angry with Harry when they express disappoint in him, and Harry learns from them that it is possible for one to be angry with you, but love you just the same. As far as I'm concerned, Sirius has no logical reason to be angry with or express disappointment in his godson in OotP. I suppose we could always go the 'unhinged in Azkaban' route.
Accio Sirius - Oct 25, 2007 6:46 pm (#1700 of 1982)
So much of this is grabbed out of context, which is my fault for not being more specific about which comments I am addressing. Sorry for that. The rational of mine behind my quote that wynnleaf cited centers on why I believed Sirius still hated Snape when they had the fight in OoP. And sorry wynnleaf, but I believe Sirius did have strong parental feelings for Harry in POA, acting as Godfather even while in hiding in POA, sending Harry the firebolt and sneaking in to watch him play Quidditch, risking recapture not to mention his life to save Harry from Wormtail. Certainly by OoP, Sirius felt parental love for Harry. In thinking of why he would still have such animosity for Snape after all that time, I would imagine he saw Snape's behavior in the shrieking shack in POA as a repeat of before--following the Marauders, getting the wrong idea and then going to tell on them. Yes, technically Snape didn't hear the whole, actual explanation. But it's my impression, and I think it's also been implied, that Snape never really cared about justice when it came to James, Sirius, Lupin or Harry. And Sirius knew that.
totyle - Oct 25, 2007 6:47 pm (#1701 of 1982)
Accio Sirius : He did not "bully" Harry in OoP. Bullying causes fear and anger. Sirius' comment about Harry not being like James was a guilt trip at best...
Agreed 100%. Which of us parents haven't at least once in our lives had the traitorous thought or worst said it out aloud to our kids.....why can't you be more like your elder/younger sibling? It's not right, not right at all but we're just human. In more ways than one it's Harry's tragedy that he looks like James. Sirius' and Snape's treatment of him is to a great degree influenced by this fact. Lupin/DD and other matured teachers did not have this problem of seeing past Harry's resemblence to his dad. Lupin acknowledges it but looks past it and sees Harry for himself. Sirius and Snape both lost people they loved very much and to have Harry turn up in their lives looking very much like their best friend/arch enemy blinded them in part. It's a flaw but as someone said earlier..shrug so we're all just human. And its easier for ME to forgive Sirius because he loved Harry despite his(Sirius') flaws whereas Snape seemed to take joy in (have to be very careful in my choice of words here!) taunting and putting down Harry.
wynnleaf - Oct 25, 2007 7:27 pm (#1702 of 1982)
And sorry wynnleaf, but I believe Sirius did have strong parental feelings for Harry in POA, acting as Godfather even while in hiding in POA, sending Harry the firebolt and sneaking in to watch him play Quidditch, risking recapture not to mention his life to save Harry from Wormtail. (Accio Sirius)
What I disagreed with was the notion that Sirius hated Snape as an adult because of Snape's attitude and actions toward Harry. While learning of Snape's attitude and actions toward Harry I'm sure would make Sirius hate Snape more, he clearly hated him before Snape even revealed himself in the Shrieking Shack scene -- before he'd seen Snape interact with Harry at all.
As regards Sirius' parental feelings toward Harry in POA, I don't think we see much evidence of it until after he met Harry. After all, supposedly he was well aware that Peter was living right there in the room with Ron and Harry, yet Sirius makes not the slightest attempt to send any message or warn anyone that a Death EAter and the betrayer of Harry's parents is right there with him. My impression was that he was far more focused on revenge on Pettigrew, than protecting Harry from Pettigrew.
Later, in GOF and OOTP, Sirius does not seem, in my opinion, to treat Harry in a parental manner, but more in the manner of someone searching for another "mate" like James. Sure, Sirius loved Harry and Harry loved Sirius, but Harry wanted a father-figure and Sirius really wasn't one.
It is as bad as Snape's taunting of Harry being as arrogant as his father, arguably worse as Sirius is an adult whom Harry respects. (PeskyPixie)
While I agree with you, I'd go further. Sirius in not only someone Harry respects, but Sirius was also James' best friend and the person besides Lily who presumably knew James the best. For Sirius to tell Harry that he's nothing like his father could easily have been devastating. Though we know that Dumbledore considered Harry much more like Lily, even Dumbledore makes an effort to point out positive similarities to Harry between himself and James.
Hogwarts Class of 85 - Oct 26, 2007 12:41 am (#1703 of 1982)
I am not sure how a convicted felon who has managed to escape from prison could get a message through to anyone that a "hero" that he killed many years ago in front of witnesses was actually (a) alive, (b) a death eater and (c) living as a rat with Harry's best friend in their shared dormroom.
In terms of him not having parental feelings for Harry in POA, I think that the fact he sought out Harry in Little Whinging so he could just see him before he continued his journey in POA is some testament to his feelings for Harry.
wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2007 3:06 am (#1704 of 1982)
I didn't say he didn't have feelings toward Harry. I question whether they were parental feelings.
Accio Sirius - Oct 26, 2007 5:20 am (#1705 of 1982)
Peskypixie said:
"I'm sorry, but telling an orphan that he's nothing like his admirable father is about the lowest thing one can do as that child's godparent."
I don't think your being fair here. Sirius didn't say Harry wasn't admirable like his father. That, I'm guessing is your interpretation of what he said. What I get from this exchange is that he was disappointed that Harry didn't want to sneak off to Hogsmeade with him like his father probably would, so he guilt trips him or almost dares him to do it--basically saying, "your father would have." Was it smart, was it adult of him? No, but to say that he was universally slamming Harry's overall character as a human, in my opinion, is unfair. Of course, it was short-sided of Sirius because when he and James were at Hogwarts and sneaking off, things weren't nearly as dangerous.
As for why Sirius would hate Snape in general: I think if Lily, someone who was friends with Snape and had the potential to love him (that's according to a JKR interview, not cannon), would cut all ties with Snape, then the implication is that Snape and his DE buddies did more than enough stuff to make Sirius hate him. Again, some of this stuff we learn from interviews with JKR, so yeah, if you are going strictly by cannon, sure, there wasn't a lot to go on as to why Sirius hated Snape so much.
Please keep in mind, I don't mean any of this adversarially. The main reason I feel compelled to defend Sirius here is that for the years that I have been posting here, Snape fans have always insisted pre-DH that we read between the lines about Snape. The arguments for his ultimate motives were always implied and interpreted. I just think Sirius deserves the same consideration and shouldn't be taken quite so literally. He didn't live long enough to have all of his motives played out.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 6:09 am (#1706 of 1982)
Edited Oct 26, 2007 7:12 am
Well, Wynnleaf and Accio Sirius have suggested that Sirius hated Snape for what he was, not for anything particular that he did. I suppose this could have been the case, although I wish Rowling had made it clearer in the text. We know from canon that Snape was a bigot, into the Dark Arts, and on the Junior Death Eater track. This was during the First War, when Voldemort and his Death Eaters were murdering and disappearing people. This alone could have lead to Sirius's dislike for Snape to grow into loathing, if Snape had come to represent everything Sirius hated about the bigoted zeal of that cause. Snape was in the same year at Hogwarts as Sirius, and Snape may have been the face of those bigots in that particular class. I think Sirius's personality is somewhat "family affair"-- things that happen in his sphere he sees as his business to take care of, like protecting Lily and James, or killing Peter Pettigrew. So, taking all this into consideration, perhaps it is likely that Sirius would loathe Snape as the representative in his year of Voldemort's bigoted cause.
Edited: because I had added something as an edit, but then decided to make it a separate post because Barbara J had posted while I was editing, but apparently I didn't delete the part I moved, so now I am.
Barbara J - Oct 26, 2007 6:11 am (#1707 of 1982)
I think we also have to look at the effect Sirius' comments had on Harry. Maybe they could have been devastating (I don't go that far, but just for the sake of argument), but they weren't. Maybe temporarily upsetting, but they did not send Harry into a tailspin, and he and Sirius went on with their relationship afterwards. I think it's unfair to Sirius to label his comment as the equivalent of Snape's taunting.
The "unhinged in Azkaban route" sounds like a big rationalization, but I think it's fair to cut Sirius a little slack on that account. He went into prison quite young, almost immediately after James died, and he has never had the opportunity to deal with that in a normal way. He gets out of prison, finds the spitting image of his best friend, and has a little bit of trouble separating the two. But I think he was trying to develop a family relationship -- if not parental, then certainly an older/younger brother type of relationship. I think he would have gotten past seeing Harry as a long-lost pal, if he had lived long enough.
ETA: Mrs. Brisbee, we were cross-posting, but I think you have a good point. I still have trouble understanding the depth of Sirius' loathing for Snape, though. Someone suggested that some of the explanation might have ended up on the cutting room floor, so to speak, and I guess I'll just have to accept it without fully understanding it.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 6:32 am (#1708 of 1982)
Yeah, I think the longer, more detailed explanation was cut.
From an earlier post:
I agree that Sirius' mood swings have a different effect on Harry than Snape's dislike, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. We need to learn that people we love can be angry with us and still love us -- Harry has never had love from anyone; he certainly didn't learn anything about healthy relationships from the Dursleys. --Barbara J
I agree. I don't think our options are simply Oh what a horrible bullying loser! or He's so wonderful and perfect! Like Accio Sirius and Totyle said, it was a guilt trip; it was unfair and sulky, but it doesn't encompass the whole of Sirius's interactions with Harry ever, before or after. Guess what, Sirius, Harry isn't James! Guess what, Harry, Sirius has realized that you're not James, and he's being sulky and childish right now! Barbara J's point is a good one: there are times when it isn't all peaches and roses with our loved ones, but that doesn't stop them being family, or learning and growing. Harry is the star of the show, and he of course is bothered by what Sirius says. But Harry learns to understand Sirius, and he always values the love he and Sirius had for each other. Harry can take lessons from Sirius's good qualities and his bad qualities because he is able to love him but learns to see him as he is. This whole story has been about Harry growing, and in the end Harry takes many valuable lessons away from his time with Sirius.
Hogwarts Class of 85 - Oct 26, 2007 6:59 am (#1709 of 1982)
I must agree with Mrs. Brisbee - Sirius and Snape were in school together during the rise of Voldemort. Snape had allied himself with people whose beliefs Sirius found reprehensible.
You have to remember that Sirius's brother is being held up as a paragon at home for holding these values so it is not too much a stretch to see why Sirius would come to loathe Snape.
wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2007 7:14 am (#1710 of 1982)
You have to remember that Sirius's brother is being held up as a paragon at home for holding these values so it is not too much a stretch to see why Sirius would come to loathe Snape. (Hogwarts Class of 85)
I think this is a good theory that doesn't have, as far as I can recall, anything in canon that is evidence against it.
The notion that Sirius thought Snape a bigot and therefore hated him is odd since neither Sirius nor Lupin ever say that Snape had pureblood politics. It is only Lily that comments on Snape using the "mudblood" term. She felt, I suppose from comments by Snape, that he was interested in eventually following LV. But Sirius is unlikely to have known that because he said in GOF that there had never been a hint of Snape becoming a DE, even though he hung out with some of that crowd while in school.
Nor do I really take the interest in Dark Arts as the big reason to loathe Snape. Apparently lots of the students in Slytherin were interested in them. Lily commented directly to Snape about laughing about a friend's Dark Arts joke. Surely if she'd known of Snape doing Dark Arts himself she'd have used that in her conversation rather than his laughing at someone else using them. Obviously Snape did some things with Dark Arts at school, but it doesn't seem to have been as much as his friends or Lily would have commented.
So Dark Arts interests don't, in my opinion, explain Sirius particular loathing of Snape. It doesn't seem like Sirius and James were out trying to attack all the other Darker Slytherins. They seem to have a special liking for bullying Snape. Yes, they hexed lots of people, but even Lupin and Sirius confirm that there was special animosity with Snape, which in my opinion isn't explained by Snape having tendencies in areas that Sirius and James despised, when so many other students had apparently far more obvious tendencies in those directions and Sirius and James were not specifically targeting those students.
Denise P. - Oct 26, 2007 8:36 am (#1711 of 1982)
It could also be that there is no particular reason why Sirius loathes Snape so much. Some people take an instant dislike to someone and it just grows from there. The fact that Snape stood for everything Sirius despised probably contributed to his dislike and every encounter with Snape caused it to grow more. As an adult, it could be that he may have attempted to put aside these possibly unfounded feelings but after seeing Harry and hearing about his treatment by Snape, it just woke them back up and confirmed and reinforced his feelings. There are some people you just don't like but it is not always possible to pinpoint why you don't like them.
Sometimes a rose is just a rose.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 8:44 am (#1712 of 1982)
The notion that Sirius thought Snape a bigot and therefore hated him is odd since neither Sirius nor Lupin ever say that Snape had pureblood politics. It is only Lily that comments on Snape using the "mudblood" term. She felt, I suppose from comments by Snape, that he was interested in eventually following LV. But Sirius is unlikely to have known that because he said in GOF that there had never been a hint of Snape becoming a DE, even though he hung out with some of that crowd while in school.-- wynnleaf
Sirius-- as well as a crowd of students-- heard Snape call Lily "Mudblood". Afterward, Lily informs us that Snape call everyone of her birth "Mudblood". I don't think Snape's bigotry was exactly a secret. During school Sirius's loathing for Snape would grow because of the ideology he was demonstrating, the same idealogy favored by Voldemort and his Death Eaters. Later, in GoF, Sirius does say Snape was never discovered to be a Death Eater, but he also says that it doesn't prove much because plenty of people got away with it. In GoF, Dumbledore has vouched for Snape. Sirius is dubious about the claim that Snape is trustworthy, but he specifically says that he doesn't think Dumbledore would have hired Snape if Snape had worked for Voldemort. Before GoF, Sirius didn't have Dumbledore's vouch for Snape. After GoF, Sirius knows that Snape was in Voldemort's camp, and Dumbledore hired him anyway. The tempered view of Snape was only a one book thing, and only existed because of a belief that Dumbledore wouldn't let a former Death Eater into the castle.
Nor do I really take the interest in Dark Arts as the big reason to loathe Snape. Apparently lots of the students in Slytherin were interested in them. Lily commented directly to Snape about laughing about a friend's Dark Arts joke. Surely if she'd known of Snape doing Dark Arts himself she'd have used that in her conversation rather than his laughing at someone else using them. Obviously Snape did some things with Dark Arts at school, but it doesn't seem to have been as much as his friends or Lily would have commented.
In GoF Sirius also said Snape was "famous" for his Dark Arts at school, so I take from the mouth of Sirius that this was Sirius's view of Snape. We know Snape is talented and intelligent, and we know Snape even created his own signature Dark Arts spell-- Lupin comments on it after it permanently severs George's ear-- so I'll wager he really was a standout in his gang. Moreover, Lily herself says she has been making excuses for Snape for years, and indicates that others have a far less favorable view of Snape than she does. It is the comments during and after SWM where we see her stop making excuses and tell it like it is, that Snape desires to be a Death Eater.
Is it enough to explain Sirius's loathing of Snape? I'm beginning to think it is, considering the context of the war.
PeskyPixie - Oct 26, 2007 9:01 am (#1713 of 1982)
In GoF Sirius says that Snape used to hang out with kids who later became Death Eaters, but he does not know whether Snape becomes one or not. The only descriptions of Snape as an individual are "slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid" and "up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts". But, I believe, to Sirius this is enough despise somebody ... perhaps it is, but not to me.
Personally, I too would be interested in the Dark Arts. I would never use them as I've fortunately had a good upbringing, but I would like to learn about them in theory. I get the impression from canon that this interest alone would cause Sirius to dislike me, without getting to know my actual intentions. Everything is either black or white for him.
I don't really want to bring this up but as it is relevant to the discussion, I feel for both Sirius and Snape as I've been in Lily's position in high school. My Marauders were wonderful young men, loved by teachers and students alike, however they were extremely intolerant of my little Snape (who had a poor upbringing, nasty streak, the works). He, unfortunately, went very bad. Up to this day, my Marauders feel justified in their treatment of Snape simply because he was a bit weird.
As for Sirius's comment, I've never claimed that Sirius is a lousy person and an abusive godfather, rather, I love him and feel for him a great deal. However, that comment should not be minimized. Negatively comparing an orphan to his dead father? The only way Sirius can get out of this one is to plead insanity/arrested development. No one denies Sirius's love for Harry, but guilt-tripping a kid to break rules is just bad parenting.
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wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2007 9:07 am (#1714 of 1982)
The problem for me is that when Lily "tells it like it is" she doesn't comment Snape doing a lot of Dark Arts, which surely she would mention if she knew of it. After all, Snape himself doing a lot of Dark Arts is a whole lot worse than laughing at someone else's Dark Arts joke.
And I'm not saying that Sirius and the rest of the Marauders wouldn't have taken whatever interest Snape had in Dark Arts and his friendships in the really "Dark" crowd, and had that as a reason to dislike him more.
But the fact is, Lupin and Sirius admit that the enmity with Snape is special. They weren't out there hexing and ganging up on every other Slytherin who was into Dark Arts and used the word "mudblood." Snape was the prime target. And we don't have an answer for why Sirius disliked him in particular.
However, JKR commented that James knew Snape liked Lily and that was a reason for him to dislike Snape in particular. My guess is that Sirius was such close friends with James that he picked up on James' dislike of Snape even back on the first train ride and supported James dislike of Snape especially , over and above any other Slytherin. My guess -- and JKR backs this up as regards James' dislike of Snape -- is that being friends with Lily is a good deal of the reason that James disliked Snape so much and targeted him, and Sirius just followed in line with that.
PeskyPixie - Oct 26, 2007 9:17 am (#1715 of 1982)
However, JKR commented that James knew Snape liked Lily and that was a reason for him to dislike Snape in particular. My guess is that Sirius was such close friends with James that he picked up on James' dislike of Snape even back on the first train ride and supported James dislike of Snape especially , over and above any other Slytherin. My guess -- and JKR backs this up as regards James' dislike of Snape -- is that being friends with Lily is a good deal of the reason that James disliked Snape so much and targeted him, and Sirius just followed in line with that. -wynnleaf
Yes, I figured this as well.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 9:40 am (#1716 of 1982)
My guess -- and JKR backs this up as regards James' dislike of Snape -- is that being friends with Lily is a good deal of the reason that James disliked Snape so much and targeted him, and Sirius just followed in line with that.-- wynnleaf
No doubt this played into it, although I think it deeper than that. Sirius became Lily's best friend, too, as an adult. I doubt he ever forgot Snape's mudblood comment to Lily.
I was talking a bit before about Sirius's personality, and how he seems to take things that fall into his sphere personally, like it's his job to take care of whatever it is. I think Snape being in Sirius's year put him in Sirius's sphere. That year's standout Dark wizardling. That year's vocal bigot. I can see how Lily becoming Sirius's friend could carry that enmity in a personal way into adulthood, given Sirius's personality.
Would Sirius have reacted just as vehemently if someone else with a similar background had been given a job at Hogwarts? Say Mulciber, or Lucius Malfoy? Sirius loathed one particular Death eater wannabe at school, but later joined an organization to fight them all. I guess Sirius's personal dislike of Snape and his general hatred of everything Death Eater compounded into loathing for Snape.
Soul Search - Oct 26, 2007 9:49 am (#1717 of 1982)
I think Denise P. came close to the mark in her #1711 post. Sirius took an instant dislike of Snape on the train to Hogwarts ("The Prince's Tale.") He did try to trip him as Snape left the compartment. The dislike grew into hate, even into adulthood.
Sirius being sorted into Gryffindor and Snape into Slytherin, Sirius and James becoming friends, and Snape being associated with the worst of the Slytherin crowd would have only reinforced the enemity that started on the train.
We see confirmation in the OotP and DH pensive scene. Sirius says "look who it is" and attacks Snape, just because he is there. Same sort of action as trying to trip him on the train.
Even as adults, it is Sirius that first (verbally) "attacks" Snape in the HBP scene when Snape is going to tell Harry about his occulmency lessons. Even Snape being in the order can't change Sirius' long established hate of him.
Orion - Oct 26, 2007 10:00 am (#1718 of 1982)
So you can see that someone is interested in the dark arts when you see him for the first time on a train? How can you see that?
Sirius says at one point something to the effect that Snape knew a lot of dark art even before he enrolled at Hogwarts. I think that it's a lie JKR puts into Sirius' mouth. How could the little ugly duckling with the illfitting clothes, who lived in a muggle household with a muggle father, find any dark arts spells?
Every class at school seems to have a kid who is bullied, simply because there has to be one. It was different in my school - we were such a peaceful lot, we didn't bully anybody, even if somebody was clumsy or behaved in a funny way. But my school seems to have been the one big excemption. It's perfectly reasonable what The Pesk says: Sirius as the budding alpha male sees a potential outsider and picks on him, especially as he's with a pretty girl. The outsider and the girl have to be separated.
wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2007 10:07 am (#1719 of 1982)
Absolutely Orion.
Many times classes, or school year's, settle on a particular kid to bully and look down on. Yes, there generally are reasons, but they usually aren't the reasons the other kids would cite. What generally happens is that the rest of the kids -- often even the ones who don't personally bully, but just watch from the sidelines -- assign various motivations to the bullying, and will try to find reasons to blame the victim. But very often the real reasons why the particular kid is targeted is because they make a likely victim.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 10:48 am (#1720 of 1982)
Sirius as the budding alpha male sees a potential outsider and picks on him, especially as he's with a pretty girl. The outsider and the girl have to be separated.
Are you sure you are not confusing Sirius with James?
I think the mention of wanting to be in Slytherin was enough to make Sirius dislike Snape. Sirius has already seen the Pure-Blood Slytherin thing at home, and he obviously isn't keen on it.
I don't think it blossomed into loathing until later, and there is a gap of four years there where we don't know who was doing what to whom, if anything. By fifth year, we do know that the war has been in operation for four years. We know that Snape has been doing things that make Lily make excuses and pretend for him for several years. We know it is common knowledge that he calls people "mudblood". We know he was well into the Dark Arts. We know he wanted to be a Death Eater. We know that already the name Voldemort is feared and not spoken. I don't think we can take Sirius's loathing of Snape out of this context.
Orion - Oct 26, 2007 10:54 am (#1721 of 1982)
Now why on earth would a kid which is singled out and bullied take an interest in the dark arts?
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 10:56 am (#1722 of 1982)
**cough** Canon evidence please that Snape was bullied, and thereafter took up an interest in the Dark Arts. The evidence I see suggests otherwise.
Accio Sirius - Oct 26, 2007 11:03 am (#1723 of 1982)
I thought it was mentioned in the books somewhere that Snape practiced maybe not Dark Arts, but at least some not so nice spells before he got into Hogwarts. At least to Petunia. I'll have to look for the reference.
The train incident is bullying and there really isn't reason for it--not that bullying ever has a good reason. I sympathize with Snape in that scene. I do think Orion, the idea of separating the girl and the outcast is very alpha male and would be in keeping with a pack dog mentality. Good observation.
And Denise is right--sometimes you just don't like someone for whatever reason. Snape isn't the most likable character to me, but I enjoy reading about him and admire what he was ultimately able to do for Harry. I don't think Sirius didn't like Snape just because of his looks or clothes. Peter is often described with the same negative connotations. Ironically, I think of both Sirius and Snape as Harry's protectors, just from two different schools of thought.
PeskyPixie - Oct 26, 2007 12:08 pm (#1724 of 1982)
I don't think Sirius didn't like Snape just because of his looks or clothes. Peter is often described with the same negative connotations. -Accio Sirius
Peter is a follower by nature, whereas Snape is not. If Snape had bowed down to James and Sirius on the Hogwarts Express I think their history would play out differently. Alas, this ugly duckling has a mind of his own! He may not be the most social guy but Severus is not the omega animal of the pack which Peter so naturally is.
ETA: I don't recall Snape using any nasty spells on Petunia. He performs some unintentional angry child-wizard magic and is generally nasty to her (they're both prejudiced against one another) but he doesn't have a wand on him to perform Dark spells even if he knows about them. However, let's steer this back to Sirius ...
wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2007 2:54 pm (#1725 of 1982)
Sirius starts his bullying of Snape on the train, which is before he's seen the slightest evidence that Snape has any Dark Arts interest. As far as it looks to me in that scene, Sirius bullied Snape in part because Sirius wanted to go along with James, who had taken an immediate dislike to Snape after Snape mentioned wanting to be in Slytherin.
It's quite clear that James would have taken a dislike to anyone wanting to be in Slytherin, as he told Sirius, when Sirius mentioned that all of his family had been in Slytherin, "Blimey, and I thought you seemed alright!" It was immediately after that when Sirius said he might buck tradition and not join Slytherin.
My feeling is that Sirius wanted James' friendship and immediately started to bully Snape because it would gain him favor with James. That is also the reason, I believe, that he decided to make sure he didn't get in Slytherin.
Dark Arts had nothing initially to do with it.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 10:29 pm (#1726 of 1982)
Edited by Denise P. Oct 27, 2007 6:02 pm
Sirius says Snape was up to eyeballs in the Dark Arts, and that Snape knew Dark Magic before coming to Hogwarts. This being the Sirius Black thread, and a conversation on why Sirius Black feels as Sirius Black does, I think Sirius Black's opinion as Sirius Black stated matters. I see no canon evidence the train incident lead to Snape wanting to take up Dark Arts and become a Death Eater. We have a four year gap where we don't know what was going on between Snape and the Marauders, but we do know Snape was hanging out with the Death Eater wannabe crowd. Yet it is all Sirius's fault
Accio Sirius - Oct 27, 2007 6:18 am (#1727 of 1982)
**spits coffee*** Mrs Brisbee, I should have put down the cup before I read your post! : )
It's fine if Snape lovers don't like Sirius. I don't like Snape. I just find it poor logic to justify Snape's endless faults by condemning Sirius. What surprised me most about the books was how disappointed I was with several of the characters by the end of the series, most notably Lupin and Dumbledore. But then, after thinking about it for a while, I do think it was more realistic to give these characters real, human faults, even if it makes us uncomfortable. For Lupin it was crippling self-doubt, for DD, it was power; for Snape, it seems to be revenge and poor judgment. I think we've covered Sirius' faults plenty.
wynnleaf - Oct 27, 2007 7:33 am (#1728 of 1982)
Sirius says Snape was up to eyeballs in the Dark Arts, and that Snape knew Dark Magic before coming to Hogwarts. This being the Sirius Black thread, and a conversation on why Sirius Black feels as Sirius Black does, I think Sirius Black's opinion as Sirius Black stated matters. I see no canon evidence the train incident lead to Snape wanting to take up Dark Arts and become a Death Eater. We have a four year gap where we don't know what was going on between Snape and the Marauders, but we do know Snape was hanging out with the Death Eater wannabe crowd. Yet it is all Sirius's fault. (Mrs Brisbee)
Yes, Sirius said Snape was up to his eyeballs in Dark Arts. This, however, was not a case of Sirius trying to explain why he hated Snape.
I think the point was that Sirius started his bullying the first day he met Snape, before Snape had given any evidence of being into the Dark Arts. So why did Sirius do it? I was theorizing that Sirius started bullying Snape, even on the train, as a way of gaining favor with James.
I realize that JKR didn't give us anything in between the train and 4 years later, but I think she showed the train incident, with the bullying even on their first day of meeting, to indicate that it did go on throughout their years at Hogwarts and didn't just start later. Further, I think she was showing us, by making it start before James or Sirius knew much of anything about Snape, that Sirius and James really didn't have any initial reason for their animosity.
PeskyPixie - Oct 27, 2007 12:45 pm (#1729 of 1982)
I think we've covered Sirius' faults plenty. -Accio Sirius
C'mon, we've only just begun!
Sirius makes it seem as though he dislikes Snape for his interest in Darks Arts from the time he enters Hogwarts. However, JKR shows us the first encounter between Snape and the Marauders where Sirius and James have no idea who this kid is when they begin hassling him. Obviously, Snape's interest in the Dark Arts would soon be observed by his classmates, but Sirius's original reason for disliking Severus has nothing to do with it. Or are we supposed to disregard JKR's evidence as this is Sirius's thread and we can only believe the words directly coming from Sirius's mouth as he only speaks the truth? (now, now, take a deep relaxing breath, Sirius fans )
As I've mentioned before, this first encounters sets up a 'snowball effect' between the rivals which escalates to enormous proportions.
By the way, Snape fans do not blame Sirius for inspiring Severus's interest in the Dark Arts. However, the extreme rivalry between the Marauders and Snape is not instigated by the latter.
rambkowalczyk - Oct 29, 2007 1:47 pm (#1730 of 1982)
I think Sirius hated Snape simply because James did. It was James that hated the Dark Arts (according to Lupin in book 5). Sirius at age 11 probably did not hate the Dark Arts and until informed by James that he hated it, Sirius might have been more neutral on the subject.
I think until he met James Sirius probably felt guilty that he couldn't live up to his parents' standards about certain things his family did but did not actually hate his family. Then he meets James at the train station and finds an instant friend. It is only when James says that being in Slytherin would be reason to leave does Sirius actually question the goals his parents have set for him.
Actually Sirius' reasons for being in Griffindor is more about being with James not a statement against the Dark Arts.
PeskyPixie - Oct 29, 2007 1:55 pm (#1731 of 1982)
I agree with you completely, rambkowalczyk.
PeskyPixie - Oct 29, 2007 2:33 pm (#1732 of 1982)
D'oh! To late to edit my last post.
Anywho, to give Sirius some credit, there is goodness naturally within him, which gives him the potential to later shun all that is evil. However, at eleven years of age, although he is not a nasty pure-blood maniac, I doubt he has seen enough diversity within the magical world to understand what he himself truly believes.
On the train, he definitely sides against Snape to keep James's friendship. There are no lofty ideals behind his decision.
legolas returns - Oct 29, 2007 3:12 pm (#1733 of 1982)
I thought that he was sick of his parents beliefs and did anything he could to go against them. Hence the decorations in his bedroom and his comments on the first trip to Hogwarts about breaking the mould.
wynnleaf - Oct 29, 2007 6:25 pm (#1734 of 1982)
I thought that he was sick of his parents beliefs and did anything he could to go against them. Hence the decorations in his bedroom and his comments on the first trip to Hogwarts about breaking the mould. (legolas returns)
I think Pesky makes an excellent point that Sirius probably had little to compare his family to prior to going to Hogwarts. While he may have felt uncomfortable with some of their practices or beliefs, how would he know much beyond that?
As regards the decorations in his room, Sirius didn't leave home for good until he was about 16, so all those decorations are highly unlikely to have been the way his room was decorated when he first went to Hogwarts at age 11.
His comments about Slytherin are first simply that all of his family had been in Slytherin. It wasn't until James, with whom he'd begun to strike up a friendship, said, "I had thought you were alright." (not exact quote) that Sirius said maybe he wouldn't be in Slytherin. It sounded much more like a response to the notion that James might ditch their budding friendship than some long thought-out decision made because he didn't like his family's interest in Dark Arts.
PeskyPixie - Oct 30, 2007 1:44 pm (#1735 of 1982)
I thought that he was sick of his parents beliefs and did anything he could to go against them. Hence the decorations in his bedroom and his comments on the first trip to Hogwarts about breaking the mould. -legolas returns
Sirius decorates his bedroom with Gryffindor paraphernalia after being Sorted into Gryffindor. While his parents are unable to brainwash him pre-Hogwarts I seriously doubt that a ten-year-old, old money, pure-blood kid would have the opportunity to go shopping at the Hogwarts campus store for Gryffindor merchandise . I have a feeling that room-redecorating takes place after the events on the Hogwarts Express. The calendar girls and photo of the Marauders featured on Sirius's walls also indicate that he decorates his room as a teenager (before running away at the age of sixteen of course).
I still think that Sirius's original dislike of Snape stems from his desire to remain friends with this James kid who happens to despise anything Slytherin. Sirius's natural rebellious streak also aids in his attempt to dissociate from his parents's House and anyone who wishes to be part of it.
Accio Sirius - Nov 1, 2007 12:24 pm (#1736 of 1982)
"Sirius's natural rebellious streak also aids in his attempt to dissociate from his parents's House and anyone who wishes to be part of it."
I think that is part of it, but remember, Snape doesn't exactly reach out for friendship either. He's just not that type of person, so I think it goes back to instant dislike for whatever reason, reinforced by the fact that none of Sirius' newfound friends seem to like him either.
Still, what we know from what Sirius has said was that his mother and many in the family were not nice people. A lot of his family seemed extreme even compared to say the Malfoys in their unpleasantness. Whether or not Regulus gained favor after Sirius was sorted into Gryffindor, we just don't know. So perhaps Sirius' 11-year-old reaction to James' opinion of Slytherin was just confirmation for him. I didn't read the train scene with the same take as many here do. Sirius was an alpha dog type and although in that scene, he may have been testing the waters, I don't see him as quite submissive and acquiescent others imply. I just can't imagine he wouldn't like Snape because this guy he just met said he didn't like him. It is stated later in the books, through Harry's interpretation of Snape's memory, that James was the one who was influenced by Sirius--something to the effect that Sirius was the only one James would listen to. Granted, I think they influenced each other, not always with the best results, but I think it was more because they were so much alike. Not because one was willing to comprise their own thoughts/ideas just to please the other. Now, Lupin, however, would do that.
PeskyPixie - Nov 2, 2007 3:14 pm (#1737 of 1982)
Well, I think Sirius and James are both alpha males (sort of like when brother lions share the role of leader in a pride). On the Hogwarts Express however, James is one step ahead of Sirius as he comes from a home which feels like home to him. Sirius, while neither abused nor brain-washed, is curious and open for influence outside his family. Thus, at their first meeting I'd have to say that James is the alpha animal (snicker, snicker) and it is Sirius who does not wish to lose his friendship. After the first encounter and their Sorting into Gryffindor the two boys love one another as brothers and equals.
Snape doesn't exactly reach out for friendship either. -Accio Sirius
Snape actually minds his own business until James harasses him for expressing his desire to join Slytherin House. One can hardly blame him for defending his beliefs when picked on.
Accio Sirius - Nov 2, 2007 4:49 pm (#1738 of 1982)
I just meant in general, Snape doesn't seem like the friend making type save for a few rare exceptions. Although, as we have firmly established here, he was definitely picked on in the train scene.
"On the Hogwarts Express however, James is one step ahead of Sirius as he comes from a home which feels like home to him. Sirius, while neither abused nor brain-washed, is curious and open for influence outside his family."
Judging from the way his mother's portrait speaks to him later in life, I do think it is possible that Sirius was at least emotionally abused at home. His habit of verbally lashing out at others would be in keeping with the pattern of someone verbally abused. Still, meeting James and hearing his take on things would feel like vindication/confirmation for Sirius. It could have been a relief as well, thinking that something was wrong with him because he was so different form his own family.
PeskyPixie - Nov 29, 2007 12:05 pm (#1739 of 1982)
I'm not quite sure whether Sirius is emotionally abused by his parents prior to attending Hogwarts. He may have found his parents's views a tad extreme, but as far as we know (wealthy, pure-blood wizard offspring), Sirius does not really have much opportunity for Muggle/Muggle-born contact to make up his own mind until he is aboard the Hogwarts Express. I find 'maybe I'll break the family tradition' (or whatever the exact quote is) to be a defining moment for Sirius's character. I'm sure he starts mouthing off to his parents from his first visit back home and is 'the bad son' from then on, but he is a well cared for boy until age eleven.
As for 'verbally lashing out at others', Sirius is a big brother; he knows how to bully!
wynnleaf - Dec 15, 2007 4:12 am (#1740 of 1982)
I was reading a story by zgirnius recently and something dawned on me for the first time.
When Sirius went to the MOM at the end of OOTP, he obviously put himself at risk, but I never thought that was any greater problem than anyone else from the Order risking their lives. The Death Eaters weren't trying any harder to kill Sirius than they were the other Order members.
However, Sirius being seen with Order members could have seriously jeopardized the rest of the Order. I never thought about that before. If Ministry officials had seen Sirius in the company of Tonks, Mad Eye, or Shacklebolt, or even Lupin, those people would have been assumed to be in cahoots with a Death Eater and mass murderer. If the action had been identified as an Order activity, then the entire Order would have been seen to be harboring a convicted mass murderer.
PeskyPixie - Dec 16, 2007 11:47 am (#1741 of 1982)
Snape claims to have 'requested' Sirius to stay behind at 12GP to relay the events of that eventful day to Dumbledore. However, Sirius is not the type to stay at home while others, including Snape (in the Forbidden Forest) attempt to rescue Harry, especially not after being locked up at home for almost a year. I do agree that it's not the smartest decision, although expected from a Gryffindor.
Luna Logic - Dec 16, 2007 12:10 pm (#1742 of 1982)
But why didn't Sirius disguised himself (as Mondungus did), why didn't he desillusioned himself, why didn't he transformed himself temporary (as Hermione did for Harry and Ron in Book 7)? Why didn't he do such simple magic things and GO OUT sometimes ?!
Orion - Dec 16, 2007 12:33 pm (#1743 of 1982)
Funny, I thought the same just today. Why don't they use the disillusionment charm more often? In the battle at the MOM, if they had been disillusioned, they would have been quite safe.
Accio Sirius - Dec 30, 2007 4:04 pm (#1744 of 1982)
Yeah! So Harry's son does get Sirius as a middle name! James Sirius according to a clip on Jo's website!
PeskyPixie - Jan 1, 2008 7:45 pm (#1745 of 1982)
Yes, James Sirius! It feels wonderful to be right! ***basks in everyone's applause***
Julia H. - Jan 3, 2008 6:52 pm (#1746 of 1982)
Sirius has a strong tendency to take a risk where Harry is concerned, even when Harry is not in mortal danger. At the end of OOTP, he probably knows that Harry has gone to the MOM to save him, so he could hardly stay at home this time.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 5, 2008 1:22 am (#1747 of 1982)
I agree Julia, although it was hard to hear what you said over Peskey's thunderous self applause...
PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 10:14 am (#1748 of 1982)
Steve Newton made the following point on the Severus Snape thread. I think it's a very interesting idea:
"I occurs to me that in the examples that we have been shown of conflict between the marauders and Snape that the wild card has been Sirius not James. In the worst memory it is Sirius that starts the confrontation and in the Lupin episode it is Sirius that seems to have set Snape up. Sirius is also with James on the train to Hogwarts but I am not yet up to this in the read a long so I can't say that I remember what happened. (I've only read it once.)
Years ago I took a group work class and it seems that Sirius is what you would call a covert leader. Despite his willingness to sacrifice for Harry he does not appear to have been wrapped too tight." -Steve Newton
Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 11:01 am (#1749 of 1982)
Interesting thoughts but I have some questions: While I have an idea what a "covert leader" may be, it would be interesting to read some technical details of this role from you, Steve. Another problem: I don't understand your last sentence.
mona amon - Feb 19, 2008 11:16 am (#1750 of 1982)
Actually it was James that starts the confrontation in the worst Memory. It is also James who starts the confrontation in the train. In both cases Sirius is very quick to join in. Sirius can of course claim the entire credit for the werewolf prank.
Er Steve, what's the meaning of 'wrapped too tight' ?
EDIT: Cross posted with Julia. Glad I'm not the only one who didn't understand!
Steve Newton - Feb 19, 2008 11:30 am (#1751 of 1982)
Well, you have obviously thought that I had written a coherent sentence. I trust that you see your mistake.
The last sentence should read "Despite his willingness to sacrifice for Harry he appears to have not been wrapped too tight."
That may not clear things up but its the way that I think.
Covert leader, well this is going back a few years so I may not be clear. A covert leader leads (controls?) a group while not being named a leader and has, at some level, no responsibility for the results of his actions. They sort of get others to do things without being in any official position. Offhand I can't find a convenient definition and, perhaps, the term has gone out of use.
mona amon - Feb 19, 2008 11:38 am (#1752 of 1982)
Steve, it's not because of the sentence. I really do not know what the phrase 'not been wrapped too tight' means.
Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 11:45 am (#1753 of 1982)
"That may not clear things up ..." (Steve)
Well... no, it does not. I'm sorry. :-)
Steve Newton - Feb 19, 2008 12:43 pm (#1754 of 1982)
OK, try, his deck isn't quite full. His elevator doesn't go all the way to the top. He only has one oar in the water. I'm blibbering, sorry.
PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 12:48 pm (#1755 of 1982)
'Loose screw in the ol' noggin', regardless of Azkaban?
Orion - Feb 19, 2008 12:49 pm (#1756 of 1982)
The joys of the english language. Dear Steve, if you could just post the most boring dictionary explanation then we would all learn some great new expressions. Please?
Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 12:49 pm (#1757 of 1982)
A vocabulary building exercise in English! Great!
Just as Orion said...
Erm... Pesky?
PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 12:57 pm (#1758 of 1982)
Sorry, guys .
It's really Steve's point, so I shouldn't add my interpretations, but I assumed that Steve means Sirius can make decisions like a nut (i.e. a crazy person) at times.
Orion - Feb 19, 2008 1:02 pm (#1759 of 1982)
Ah! Thanks Pesky! That is really, really the uttermost boring explanation in the dictionary! Now I understand.
Steve Newton - Feb 19, 2008 1:06 pm (#1760 of 1982)
Yep, he is not a steadying influence. A little, or maybe a lot, out of control. A bit crazy perhaps.
Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 1:18 pm (#1761 of 1982)
Thanks, all of you! Now that's sorted out I am ready to focus on Sirius.
Soul Search - Feb 19, 2008 1:21 pm (#1762 of 1982)
I don't think I would go so far as to say Sirius was "crazy," in any way. Even during PoA.
I would say Sirius, even at Hogwarts, was too impulsive and failed to consider the consequences of his actions.
In PoA, Sirius is totally focused on killing Pettigrew. To protect Harry, he says, but we know Harry was not, at least then, in any danger from Pettigrew. Sirius just wanted to kill Pettigrew for betraying James and Lily and for setting him up for 12 years in Azkaban. Not unreasonable, actually.
Is he perfectly normal in PoA? No, but neither would I go all the way to "crazy."
wynnleaf - Feb 19, 2008 2:31 pm (#1763 of 1982)
Several of the characters in the series appear to think of Sirius as rash and speak about that as though it's a well-known opinion within the Order.
Molly directly calls him rash and says that Dumbledore thinks he is rash (or at least implied DD thought that). Further, DD himself makes decisions that kind of imply he thinks Sirius is rash. DD orders Sirius to stay in Grimmauld Place, even though a good dose of polyjuice or that charm that makes people occasionally invisible could help him take part in Order missions. And how many people actually recognize black dogs? Further, DD sets up the occlumency lessons for Harry without even telling Sirius, Harry's godfather, until after it's all planned with Snape.
And Sirius does actually do a number of rash things. He's a kind of "loose canon." Does everyone know what that means? Picture a loose canon, not anchored down, rolling around on the deck of a ship -- it's dangerous because no one knows where it will go next.
When Sirius was captured for murdering Peter, he apparently never declared his innocence. Yes, he may have "felt" guilty, but he didn't take steps that most people would and Peter ran free. After escaping from Azkaban, Sirius acted more like a guilty man than an innocent one, as DD points out. He didn't even try to contact anyone like DD or Lupin to explain his innocence, instead trying to sneak into Hogwarts and kill Peter himself.
During GOF, he came back to the Hogwarts/Hogsmeade area and lived in a cave even though that appears to have been contrary to DD's instructions to him at the end of POA. In GOF, DD wanted him to stay away from the castle, but he doesn't always do this.
He went to the train station in OOTP, thereby giving himself away to DEs as being in the country rather than in exile somewhere. And he even tried briefly to talk Harry into going out and meeting him outside Hogwarts.
I don't blame him at all for going to the Ministry at the end of OOTP, but many of his other decisions seem not just rash, but a bit irrational. Even his explanation to James for why to use Peter instead of himself as secret keeper is convoluted and dangerous, given that they all thought of Peter as weak to begin with.
Sirius "Prank" is so very risky both to Snape and to Lupin, Sirius' friend, that it's impossible for me to consider it something the typical 15 or 16 year old would do. It borders on the kind of risk-taking that is irrational, not just youthful high spirits.
Mrs. Black, if her portrait was any indication, seemed practically insane by the time she died. Bellatrix seems to have been kind of unstable even before she went to Azkaban. One wonders if there's any connection.
PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 3:04 pm (#1764 of 1982)
"During GoF, he came back to the Hogwarts/Hogsmeade area and lived in a cave even though that appears to have been contrary to DD's instructions to him," -wynnleaf
If I'm not mistaken, Dumbledore is in correspondence with Sirius and suggests the cave to him. I'm not sure whose idea it is for Sirius to come so close to Hogsmeade, though.
"Bellatrix seems to have been kind of unstable even before she went to Azkaban." -wynnleaf
But Bella's crazy in love, so we can excuse her, can't we?
Soul Search - Feb 19, 2008 6:42 pm (#1765 of 1982)
Insanity in the Black family.
I think wynnleaf is on to something. While I wouldn't go all the way to crazy for Sirius, I would have to agree with rash and, at times, irrational. The prank was the worst example, since it endangered his friend Lupin, his werewolf secret, and Lupin's staying at Hogwarts. There could be no good outcome to the prank.
I wonder. Did James recognize this irrational tendency in his friend and that's why he was receptive to using Peter for Secret Keeper?
Bellatrix is plainly a murderous psychopath. Even killed her cousin and niece.
Mrs. Black must have been off the deep end for quite a while. I mean, blasting anyone who disagreed with her off the family tree. Kreacher liked her, although that may not be the best of endorsements.
The father paid a lot of money for an Order of Merit. Not quite right there, either.
Regulus, while noble, went a bit far, I thought.
Someone kept a boggart in a wardrobe.
Andromeda seems okay, although she did choose to marry a Muggleborn. Narcissa seems okay, except for her matrimonial choice.
Tonks is a bit obsessed on Lupin, but maybe that isn't the same thing. Happens all the time to otherwise sane people.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 19, 2008 11:29 pm (#1766 of 1982)
"Tonks is a bit obsessed on Lupin, but maybe that isn't the same thing. Happens all the time to otherwise sane people."
Thanks for the SPEW moment Soul Search...
Julia H. - Feb 20, 2008 11:32 am (#1767 of 1982)
Soul Search, you do stretch the meaning of "insanity" a bit if you include both Bellatrix and Tonks/Andromeda under the same label. However, I agree that it is not a particularly balanced family. But then they are related to most other pureblood families, as Sirius says. Can a certain level of insanity be the price for keeping up the pureblood status? (The Weasleys are different but perhaps they are magically protected by their interest in Muggles. In the Epilogue, Ron says "Granddad Weasley" would not like his grandchild to marry a pureblood.)
PeskyPixie - Feb 20, 2008 11:41 am (#1768 of 1982)
The Gaunts had most certainly gone bonkers via their extremely limited gene pool, so perhaps certain genes turn up quite readily in the Black family as well? However, I don't see them as truly insane -definitely impulsive though.
Steve Newton - Feb 20, 2008 11:41 am (#1769 of 1982)
I don't think that Sirius was insane just a little out of control, sort of.
Do folks think that he was the leader of the marauders?
wynnleaf - Feb 20, 2008 12:09 pm (#1770 of 1982)
I think Sirius and James led as a team. They appear to have met on the train to Hogwarts and it seemed to me that Sirius' decision to avoid Slytherin and perhaps even request Gryffindor was because he heard James, who he'd just liked and maybe admired, saying that he was hoping to be in Gryffindor. In other words, although he was bucking the family tradition, he seems to want to follow James. In the worst memory scene, James decides to attack Snape, but he did it in part as a reaction to Sirius' comments about being bored. If we take that literally (we probably shouldn't), it at least implies that James wants to do things that please Sirius. Further, it is Sirius that convinces James to use Peter as the Secret Keeper.
In Filch's detention files, Harry saw a number of records that seemed to indicate that James and Sirius tended to work together on various pranks or adventures, even if Lupin and Peter weren't involved.
It makes sense to me that Snape would assume that James knew about the "Prank" because they just seemed so much of a team it was probably difficult for him to believe that Sirius pulled the prank without James being a part of the scheme.
So my guess is that they jointly led the rest of the Marauders. In addition to other attributes and their mutual close friendship, they were also the wealthy purebloods of the group, which almost certainly gave them another edge on the other two.
Was Sirius insane? No, he was clearly quite lucid. It's just that Sirius does a lot of reckless things. The Prank, if nothing else, is at least reckless endangerment. But in fact all of the Marauders were into that somewhat, since the idea of roaming around the countryside with Lupin every month was definitely reckless endangerment of others. But Sirius didn't appear to me to have lost that tendency as an adult. And then he never got to really grow up, after about age 21 when he went to Azkaban. My impression of him is that he remained very adolescent in that rash sort of decision making of youth.
Steve Newton - Feb 20, 2008 3:39 pm (#1771 of 1982)
Its the worst memory scene that suggests to me that Sirius was the covert leader of the group. He sort of wound James up and let him go.
Julia H. - Feb 20, 2008 4:07 pm (#1772 of 1982)
Interesting thoughts, Wynnleaf and Steve. Without wanting to argue, I would like to mention that the fact that Sirius's Animagus form was a dog suggests to me that he was a faithful friend in the first place within the group (and otherwise).
PeskyPixie - Feb 20, 2008 4:26 pm (#1773 of 1982)
Ooh, that's an interesting observation, Julia. Sirius is the faithful dog, Peter is the 'rat', James is a stag. Does this represent pride? Nobility?
Mrs. Sirius - Feb 20, 2008 11:23 pm (#1774 of 1982)
But Bella's crazy in love, so we can excuse her, can't we?
Love or no love, Bella is just crazy. She's married to one guy Rudolfous, but doing any and everything for another.
Sirius's impulsive recklessness reminds me of the crazy behavior of the Gaunts. Inbreeding magnifies odd (crazy) behavior. Inbreeding may not automatically mean full mental melt down but it tends amplify the occurense of those quirks in a family.
Julia H. - Feb 21, 2008 1:56 am (#1775 of 1982)
"James is a stag. Does this represent pride? Nobility?" (Pesky)
I think the "stag" is someone who fights at regular intervals for ... hm ... territory (?) and women. (Alpha male?)
Orion - Feb 21, 2008 12:01 pm (#1776 of 1982)
I wonder how exactly it looked when the Marauders went maraudering. How did little Wormtail keep up with the big animals? How did Prongs avoid trampling him? And what did they do when Remus had an urgent desire to rip a human jugular vein?
Julia H. - Feb 21, 2008 12:14 pm (#1777 of 1982)
"How did little Wormtail keep up with the big animals?" (Orion)
Travelling on Padfoot's back?
zelmia - Feb 22, 2008 7:03 pm (#1778 of 1982)
I wonder how exactly it looked when the Marauders went maraudering. - Orion, you're hilarious! I've also thought that very same thing!
Choices - Feb 23, 2008 10:28 am (#1779 of 1982)
Orion - "I wonder how exactly it looked when the Marauders went maraudering."
Well, we do know it wasn't siriusly black outside because it had to be a full mooney for Lupin to change. :-)
zelmia - Feb 23, 2008 1:11 pm (#1780 of 1982)
Sirius was the covert leader of the group. - Yes, I think so too. James, as the more gregarious was certainly the one who appeared to be in charge. But Sirius was clearly the instigator in the Worst Memory, and probably in other instances as well. I say this in part based on his supreme disappointment that Harry won't take the bait, as it were in GF (or OP?): "You're less like your father than I thought". Sirius is almost insulting with this remark, and it is pretty clear that it comes from having assumed that Harry, like James, would simply go along with whatever Sirius wanted.
The problem for me is that when Lily "tells it like it is" she doesn't comment Snape doing a lot of Dark Arts, which surely she would mention if she knew of it. After all, Snape himself doing a lot of Dark Arts is a whole lot worse than laughing at someone else's Dark Arts joke.
And I'm not saying that Sirius and the rest of the Marauders wouldn't have taken whatever interest Snape had in Dark Arts and his friendships in the really "Dark" crowd, and had that as a reason to dislike him more.
But the fact is, Lupin and Sirius admit that the enmity with Snape is special. They weren't out there hexing and ganging up on every other Slytherin who was into Dark Arts and used the word "mudblood." Snape was the prime target. And we don't have an answer for why Sirius disliked him in particular.
However, JKR commented that James knew Snape liked Lily and that was a reason for him to dislike Snape in particular. My guess is that Sirius was such close friends with James that he picked up on James' dislike of Snape even back on the first train ride and supported James dislike of Snape especially , over and above any other Slytherin. My guess -- and JKR backs this up as regards James' dislike of Snape -- is that being friends with Lily is a good deal of the reason that James disliked Snape so much and targeted him, and Sirius just followed in line with that.
PeskyPixie - Oct 26, 2007 9:17 am (#1715 of 1982)
However, JKR commented that James knew Snape liked Lily and that was a reason for him to dislike Snape in particular. My guess is that Sirius was such close friends with James that he picked up on James' dislike of Snape even back on the first train ride and supported James dislike of Snape especially , over and above any other Slytherin. My guess -- and JKR backs this up as regards James' dislike of Snape -- is that being friends with Lily is a good deal of the reason that James disliked Snape so much and targeted him, and Sirius just followed in line with that. -wynnleaf
Yes, I figured this as well.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 9:40 am (#1716 of 1982)
My guess -- and JKR backs this up as regards James' dislike of Snape -- is that being friends with Lily is a good deal of the reason that James disliked Snape so much and targeted him, and Sirius just followed in line with that.-- wynnleaf
No doubt this played into it, although I think it deeper than that. Sirius became Lily's best friend, too, as an adult. I doubt he ever forgot Snape's mudblood comment to Lily.
I was talking a bit before about Sirius's personality, and how he seems to take things that fall into his sphere personally, like it's his job to take care of whatever it is. I think Snape being in Sirius's year put him in Sirius's sphere. That year's standout Dark wizardling. That year's vocal bigot. I can see how Lily becoming Sirius's friend could carry that enmity in a personal way into adulthood, given Sirius's personality.
Would Sirius have reacted just as vehemently if someone else with a similar background had been given a job at Hogwarts? Say Mulciber, or Lucius Malfoy? Sirius loathed one particular Death eater wannabe at school, but later joined an organization to fight them all. I guess Sirius's personal dislike of Snape and his general hatred of everything Death Eater compounded into loathing for Snape.
Soul Search - Oct 26, 2007 9:49 am (#1717 of 1982)
I think Denise P. came close to the mark in her #1711 post. Sirius took an instant dislike of Snape on the train to Hogwarts ("The Prince's Tale.") He did try to trip him as Snape left the compartment. The dislike grew into hate, even into adulthood.
Sirius being sorted into Gryffindor and Snape into Slytherin, Sirius and James becoming friends, and Snape being associated with the worst of the Slytherin crowd would have only reinforced the enemity that started on the train.
We see confirmation in the OotP and DH pensive scene. Sirius says "look who it is" and attacks Snape, just because he is there. Same sort of action as trying to trip him on the train.
Even as adults, it is Sirius that first (verbally) "attacks" Snape in the HBP scene when Snape is going to tell Harry about his occulmency lessons. Even Snape being in the order can't change Sirius' long established hate of him.
Orion - Oct 26, 2007 10:00 am (#1718 of 1982)
So you can see that someone is interested in the dark arts when you see him for the first time on a train? How can you see that?
Sirius says at one point something to the effect that Snape knew a lot of dark art even before he enrolled at Hogwarts. I think that it's a lie JKR puts into Sirius' mouth. How could the little ugly duckling with the illfitting clothes, who lived in a muggle household with a muggle father, find any dark arts spells?
Every class at school seems to have a kid who is bullied, simply because there has to be one. It was different in my school - we were such a peaceful lot, we didn't bully anybody, even if somebody was clumsy or behaved in a funny way. But my school seems to have been the one big excemption. It's perfectly reasonable what The Pesk says: Sirius as the budding alpha male sees a potential outsider and picks on him, especially as he's with a pretty girl. The outsider and the girl have to be separated.
wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2007 10:07 am (#1719 of 1982)
Absolutely Orion.
Many times classes, or school year's, settle on a particular kid to bully and look down on. Yes, there generally are reasons, but they usually aren't the reasons the other kids would cite. What generally happens is that the rest of the kids -- often even the ones who don't personally bully, but just watch from the sidelines -- assign various motivations to the bullying, and will try to find reasons to blame the victim. But very often the real reasons why the particular kid is targeted is because they make a likely victim.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 10:48 am (#1720 of 1982)
Sirius as the budding alpha male sees a potential outsider and picks on him, especially as he's with a pretty girl. The outsider and the girl have to be separated.
Are you sure you are not confusing Sirius with James?
I think the mention of wanting to be in Slytherin was enough to make Sirius dislike Snape. Sirius has already seen the Pure-Blood Slytherin thing at home, and he obviously isn't keen on it.
I don't think it blossomed into loathing until later, and there is a gap of four years there where we don't know who was doing what to whom, if anything. By fifth year, we do know that the war has been in operation for four years. We know that Snape has been doing things that make Lily make excuses and pretend for him for several years. We know it is common knowledge that he calls people "mudblood". We know he was well into the Dark Arts. We know he wanted to be a Death Eater. We know that already the name Voldemort is feared and not spoken. I don't think we can take Sirius's loathing of Snape out of this context.
Orion - Oct 26, 2007 10:54 am (#1721 of 1982)
Now why on earth would a kid which is singled out and bullied take an interest in the dark arts?
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 10:56 am (#1722 of 1982)
**cough** Canon evidence please that Snape was bullied, and thereafter took up an interest in the Dark Arts. The evidence I see suggests otherwise.
Accio Sirius - Oct 26, 2007 11:03 am (#1723 of 1982)
I thought it was mentioned in the books somewhere that Snape practiced maybe not Dark Arts, but at least some not so nice spells before he got into Hogwarts. At least to Petunia. I'll have to look for the reference.
The train incident is bullying and there really isn't reason for it--not that bullying ever has a good reason. I sympathize with Snape in that scene. I do think Orion, the idea of separating the girl and the outcast is very alpha male and would be in keeping with a pack dog mentality. Good observation.
And Denise is right--sometimes you just don't like someone for whatever reason. Snape isn't the most likable character to me, but I enjoy reading about him and admire what he was ultimately able to do for Harry. I don't think Sirius didn't like Snape just because of his looks or clothes. Peter is often described with the same negative connotations. Ironically, I think of both Sirius and Snape as Harry's protectors, just from two different schools of thought.
PeskyPixie - Oct 26, 2007 12:08 pm (#1724 of 1982)
I don't think Sirius didn't like Snape just because of his looks or clothes. Peter is often described with the same negative connotations. -Accio Sirius
Peter is a follower by nature, whereas Snape is not. If Snape had bowed down to James and Sirius on the Hogwarts Express I think their history would play out differently. Alas, this ugly duckling has a mind of his own! He may not be the most social guy but Severus is not the omega animal of the pack which Peter so naturally is.
ETA: I don't recall Snape using any nasty spells on Petunia. He performs some unintentional angry child-wizard magic and is generally nasty to her (they're both prejudiced against one another) but he doesn't have a wand on him to perform Dark spells even if he knows about them. However, let's steer this back to Sirius ...
wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2007 2:54 pm (#1725 of 1982)
Sirius starts his bullying of Snape on the train, which is before he's seen the slightest evidence that Snape has any Dark Arts interest. As far as it looks to me in that scene, Sirius bullied Snape in part because Sirius wanted to go along with James, who had taken an immediate dislike to Snape after Snape mentioned wanting to be in Slytherin.
It's quite clear that James would have taken a dislike to anyone wanting to be in Slytherin, as he told Sirius, when Sirius mentioned that all of his family had been in Slytherin, "Blimey, and I thought you seemed alright!" It was immediately after that when Sirius said he might buck tradition and not join Slytherin.
My feeling is that Sirius wanted James' friendship and immediately started to bully Snape because it would gain him favor with James. That is also the reason, I believe, that he decided to make sure he didn't get in Slytherin.
Dark Arts had nothing initially to do with it.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 10:29 pm (#1726 of 1982)
Edited by Denise P. Oct 27, 2007 6:02 pm
Sirius says Snape was up to eyeballs in the Dark Arts, and that Snape knew Dark Magic before coming to Hogwarts. This being the Sirius Black thread, and a conversation on why Sirius Black feels as Sirius Black does, I think Sirius Black's opinion as Sirius Black stated matters. I see no canon evidence the train incident lead to Snape wanting to take up Dark Arts and become a Death Eater. We have a four year gap where we don't know what was going on between Snape and the Marauders, but we do know Snape was hanging out with the Death Eater wannabe crowd. Yet it is all Sirius's fault
Accio Sirius - Oct 27, 2007 6:18 am (#1727 of 1982)
**spits coffee*** Mrs Brisbee, I should have put down the cup before I read your post! : )
It's fine if Snape lovers don't like Sirius. I don't like Snape. I just find it poor logic to justify Snape's endless faults by condemning Sirius. What surprised me most about the books was how disappointed I was with several of the characters by the end of the series, most notably Lupin and Dumbledore. But then, after thinking about it for a while, I do think it was more realistic to give these characters real, human faults, even if it makes us uncomfortable. For Lupin it was crippling self-doubt, for DD, it was power; for Snape, it seems to be revenge and poor judgment. I think we've covered Sirius' faults plenty.
wynnleaf - Oct 27, 2007 7:33 am (#1728 of 1982)
Sirius says Snape was up to eyeballs in the Dark Arts, and that Snape knew Dark Magic before coming to Hogwarts. This being the Sirius Black thread, and a conversation on why Sirius Black feels as Sirius Black does, I think Sirius Black's opinion as Sirius Black stated matters. I see no canon evidence the train incident lead to Snape wanting to take up Dark Arts and become a Death Eater. We have a four year gap where we don't know what was going on between Snape and the Marauders, but we do know Snape was hanging out with the Death Eater wannabe crowd. Yet it is all Sirius's fault. (Mrs Brisbee)
Yes, Sirius said Snape was up to his eyeballs in Dark Arts. This, however, was not a case of Sirius trying to explain why he hated Snape.
I think the point was that Sirius started his bullying the first day he met Snape, before Snape had given any evidence of being into the Dark Arts. So why did Sirius do it? I was theorizing that Sirius started bullying Snape, even on the train, as a way of gaining favor with James.
I realize that JKR didn't give us anything in between the train and 4 years later, but I think she showed the train incident, with the bullying even on their first day of meeting, to indicate that it did go on throughout their years at Hogwarts and didn't just start later. Further, I think she was showing us, by making it start before James or Sirius knew much of anything about Snape, that Sirius and James really didn't have any initial reason for their animosity.
PeskyPixie - Oct 27, 2007 12:45 pm (#1729 of 1982)
I think we've covered Sirius' faults plenty. -Accio Sirius
C'mon, we've only just begun!
Sirius makes it seem as though he dislikes Snape for his interest in Darks Arts from the time he enters Hogwarts. However, JKR shows us the first encounter between Snape and the Marauders where Sirius and James have no idea who this kid is when they begin hassling him. Obviously, Snape's interest in the Dark Arts would soon be observed by his classmates, but Sirius's original reason for disliking Severus has nothing to do with it. Or are we supposed to disregard JKR's evidence as this is Sirius's thread and we can only believe the words directly coming from Sirius's mouth as he only speaks the truth? (now, now, take a deep relaxing breath, Sirius fans )
As I've mentioned before, this first encounters sets up a 'snowball effect' between the rivals which escalates to enormous proportions.
By the way, Snape fans do not blame Sirius for inspiring Severus's interest in the Dark Arts. However, the extreme rivalry between the Marauders and Snape is not instigated by the latter.
rambkowalczyk - Oct 29, 2007 1:47 pm (#1730 of 1982)
I think Sirius hated Snape simply because James did. It was James that hated the Dark Arts (according to Lupin in book 5). Sirius at age 11 probably did not hate the Dark Arts and until informed by James that he hated it, Sirius might have been more neutral on the subject.
I think until he met James Sirius probably felt guilty that he couldn't live up to his parents' standards about certain things his family did but did not actually hate his family. Then he meets James at the train station and finds an instant friend. It is only when James says that being in Slytherin would be reason to leave does Sirius actually question the goals his parents have set for him.
Actually Sirius' reasons for being in Griffindor is more about being with James not a statement against the Dark Arts.
PeskyPixie - Oct 29, 2007 1:55 pm (#1731 of 1982)
I agree with you completely, rambkowalczyk.
PeskyPixie - Oct 29, 2007 2:33 pm (#1732 of 1982)
D'oh! To late to edit my last post.
Anywho, to give Sirius some credit, there is goodness naturally within him, which gives him the potential to later shun all that is evil. However, at eleven years of age, although he is not a nasty pure-blood maniac, I doubt he has seen enough diversity within the magical world to understand what he himself truly believes.
On the train, he definitely sides against Snape to keep James's friendship. There are no lofty ideals behind his decision.
legolas returns - Oct 29, 2007 3:12 pm (#1733 of 1982)
I thought that he was sick of his parents beliefs and did anything he could to go against them. Hence the decorations in his bedroom and his comments on the first trip to Hogwarts about breaking the mould.
wynnleaf - Oct 29, 2007 6:25 pm (#1734 of 1982)
I thought that he was sick of his parents beliefs and did anything he could to go against them. Hence the decorations in his bedroom and his comments on the first trip to Hogwarts about breaking the mould. (legolas returns)
I think Pesky makes an excellent point that Sirius probably had little to compare his family to prior to going to Hogwarts. While he may have felt uncomfortable with some of their practices or beliefs, how would he know much beyond that?
As regards the decorations in his room, Sirius didn't leave home for good until he was about 16, so all those decorations are highly unlikely to have been the way his room was decorated when he first went to Hogwarts at age 11.
His comments about Slytherin are first simply that all of his family had been in Slytherin. It wasn't until James, with whom he'd begun to strike up a friendship, said, "I had thought you were alright." (not exact quote) that Sirius said maybe he wouldn't be in Slytherin. It sounded much more like a response to the notion that James might ditch their budding friendship than some long thought-out decision made because he didn't like his family's interest in Dark Arts.
PeskyPixie - Oct 30, 2007 1:44 pm (#1735 of 1982)
I thought that he was sick of his parents beliefs and did anything he could to go against them. Hence the decorations in his bedroom and his comments on the first trip to Hogwarts about breaking the mould. -legolas returns
Sirius decorates his bedroom with Gryffindor paraphernalia after being Sorted into Gryffindor. While his parents are unable to brainwash him pre-Hogwarts I seriously doubt that a ten-year-old, old money, pure-blood kid would have the opportunity to go shopping at the Hogwarts campus store for Gryffindor merchandise . I have a feeling that room-redecorating takes place after the events on the Hogwarts Express. The calendar girls and photo of the Marauders featured on Sirius's walls also indicate that he decorates his room as a teenager (before running away at the age of sixteen of course).
I still think that Sirius's original dislike of Snape stems from his desire to remain friends with this James kid who happens to despise anything Slytherin. Sirius's natural rebellious streak also aids in his attempt to dissociate from his parents's House and anyone who wishes to be part of it.
Accio Sirius - Nov 1, 2007 12:24 pm (#1736 of 1982)
"Sirius's natural rebellious streak also aids in his attempt to dissociate from his parents's House and anyone who wishes to be part of it."
I think that is part of it, but remember, Snape doesn't exactly reach out for friendship either. He's just not that type of person, so I think it goes back to instant dislike for whatever reason, reinforced by the fact that none of Sirius' newfound friends seem to like him either.
Still, what we know from what Sirius has said was that his mother and many in the family were not nice people. A lot of his family seemed extreme even compared to say the Malfoys in their unpleasantness. Whether or not Regulus gained favor after Sirius was sorted into Gryffindor, we just don't know. So perhaps Sirius' 11-year-old reaction to James' opinion of Slytherin was just confirmation for him. I didn't read the train scene with the same take as many here do. Sirius was an alpha dog type and although in that scene, he may have been testing the waters, I don't see him as quite submissive and acquiescent others imply. I just can't imagine he wouldn't like Snape because this guy he just met said he didn't like him. It is stated later in the books, through Harry's interpretation of Snape's memory, that James was the one who was influenced by Sirius--something to the effect that Sirius was the only one James would listen to. Granted, I think they influenced each other, not always with the best results, but I think it was more because they were so much alike. Not because one was willing to comprise their own thoughts/ideas just to please the other. Now, Lupin, however, would do that.
PeskyPixie - Nov 2, 2007 3:14 pm (#1737 of 1982)
Well, I think Sirius and James are both alpha males (sort of like when brother lions share the role of leader in a pride). On the Hogwarts Express however, James is one step ahead of Sirius as he comes from a home which feels like home to him. Sirius, while neither abused nor brain-washed, is curious and open for influence outside his family. Thus, at their first meeting I'd have to say that James is the alpha animal (snicker, snicker) and it is Sirius who does not wish to lose his friendship. After the first encounter and their Sorting into Gryffindor the two boys love one another as brothers and equals.
Snape doesn't exactly reach out for friendship either. -Accio Sirius
Snape actually minds his own business until James harasses him for expressing his desire to join Slytherin House. One can hardly blame him for defending his beliefs when picked on.
Accio Sirius - Nov 2, 2007 4:49 pm (#1738 of 1982)
I just meant in general, Snape doesn't seem like the friend making type save for a few rare exceptions. Although, as we have firmly established here, he was definitely picked on in the train scene.
"On the Hogwarts Express however, James is one step ahead of Sirius as he comes from a home which feels like home to him. Sirius, while neither abused nor brain-washed, is curious and open for influence outside his family."
Judging from the way his mother's portrait speaks to him later in life, I do think it is possible that Sirius was at least emotionally abused at home. His habit of verbally lashing out at others would be in keeping with the pattern of someone verbally abused. Still, meeting James and hearing his take on things would feel like vindication/confirmation for Sirius. It could have been a relief as well, thinking that something was wrong with him because he was so different form his own family.
PeskyPixie - Nov 29, 2007 12:05 pm (#1739 of 1982)
I'm not quite sure whether Sirius is emotionally abused by his parents prior to attending Hogwarts. He may have found his parents's views a tad extreme, but as far as we know (wealthy, pure-blood wizard offspring), Sirius does not really have much opportunity for Muggle/Muggle-born contact to make up his own mind until he is aboard the Hogwarts Express. I find 'maybe I'll break the family tradition' (or whatever the exact quote is) to be a defining moment for Sirius's character. I'm sure he starts mouthing off to his parents from his first visit back home and is 'the bad son' from then on, but he is a well cared for boy until age eleven.
As for 'verbally lashing out at others', Sirius is a big brother; he knows how to bully!
wynnleaf - Dec 15, 2007 4:12 am (#1740 of 1982)
I was reading a story by zgirnius recently and something dawned on me for the first time.
When Sirius went to the MOM at the end of OOTP, he obviously put himself at risk, but I never thought that was any greater problem than anyone else from the Order risking their lives. The Death Eaters weren't trying any harder to kill Sirius than they were the other Order members.
However, Sirius being seen with Order members could have seriously jeopardized the rest of the Order. I never thought about that before. If Ministry officials had seen Sirius in the company of Tonks, Mad Eye, or Shacklebolt, or even Lupin, those people would have been assumed to be in cahoots with a Death Eater and mass murderer. If the action had been identified as an Order activity, then the entire Order would have been seen to be harboring a convicted mass murderer.
PeskyPixie - Dec 16, 2007 11:47 am (#1741 of 1982)
Snape claims to have 'requested' Sirius to stay behind at 12GP to relay the events of that eventful day to Dumbledore. However, Sirius is not the type to stay at home while others, including Snape (in the Forbidden Forest) attempt to rescue Harry, especially not after being locked up at home for almost a year. I do agree that it's not the smartest decision, although expected from a Gryffindor.
Luna Logic - Dec 16, 2007 12:10 pm (#1742 of 1982)
But why didn't Sirius disguised himself (as Mondungus did), why didn't he desillusioned himself, why didn't he transformed himself temporary (as Hermione did for Harry and Ron in Book 7)? Why didn't he do such simple magic things and GO OUT sometimes ?!
Orion - Dec 16, 2007 12:33 pm (#1743 of 1982)
Funny, I thought the same just today. Why don't they use the disillusionment charm more often? In the battle at the MOM, if they had been disillusioned, they would have been quite safe.
Accio Sirius - Dec 30, 2007 4:04 pm (#1744 of 1982)
Yeah! So Harry's son does get Sirius as a middle name! James Sirius according to a clip on Jo's website!
PeskyPixie - Jan 1, 2008 7:45 pm (#1745 of 1982)
Yes, James Sirius! It feels wonderful to be right! ***basks in everyone's applause***
Julia H. - Jan 3, 2008 6:52 pm (#1746 of 1982)
Sirius has a strong tendency to take a risk where Harry is concerned, even when Harry is not in mortal danger. At the end of OOTP, he probably knows that Harry has gone to the MOM to save him, so he could hardly stay at home this time.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 5, 2008 1:22 am (#1747 of 1982)
I agree Julia, although it was hard to hear what you said over Peskey's thunderous self applause...
PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 10:14 am (#1748 of 1982)
Steve Newton made the following point on the Severus Snape thread. I think it's a very interesting idea:
"I occurs to me that in the examples that we have been shown of conflict between the marauders and Snape that the wild card has been Sirius not James. In the worst memory it is Sirius that starts the confrontation and in the Lupin episode it is Sirius that seems to have set Snape up. Sirius is also with James on the train to Hogwarts but I am not yet up to this in the read a long so I can't say that I remember what happened. (I've only read it once.)
Years ago I took a group work class and it seems that Sirius is what you would call a covert leader. Despite his willingness to sacrifice for Harry he does not appear to have been wrapped too tight." -Steve Newton
Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 11:01 am (#1749 of 1982)
Interesting thoughts but I have some questions: While I have an idea what a "covert leader" may be, it would be interesting to read some technical details of this role from you, Steve. Another problem: I don't understand your last sentence.
mona amon - Feb 19, 2008 11:16 am (#1750 of 1982)
Actually it was James that starts the confrontation in the worst Memory. It is also James who starts the confrontation in the train. In both cases Sirius is very quick to join in. Sirius can of course claim the entire credit for the werewolf prank.
Er Steve, what's the meaning of 'wrapped too tight' ?
EDIT: Cross posted with Julia. Glad I'm not the only one who didn't understand!
Steve Newton - Feb 19, 2008 11:30 am (#1751 of 1982)
Well, you have obviously thought that I had written a coherent sentence. I trust that you see your mistake.
The last sentence should read "Despite his willingness to sacrifice for Harry he appears to have not been wrapped too tight."
That may not clear things up but its the way that I think.
Covert leader, well this is going back a few years so I may not be clear. A covert leader leads (controls?) a group while not being named a leader and has, at some level, no responsibility for the results of his actions. They sort of get others to do things without being in any official position. Offhand I can't find a convenient definition and, perhaps, the term has gone out of use.
mona amon - Feb 19, 2008 11:38 am (#1752 of 1982)
Steve, it's not because of the sentence. I really do not know what the phrase 'not been wrapped too tight' means.
Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 11:45 am (#1753 of 1982)
"That may not clear things up ..." (Steve)
Well... no, it does not. I'm sorry. :-)
Steve Newton - Feb 19, 2008 12:43 pm (#1754 of 1982)
OK, try, his deck isn't quite full. His elevator doesn't go all the way to the top. He only has one oar in the water. I'm blibbering, sorry.
PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 12:48 pm (#1755 of 1982)
'Loose screw in the ol' noggin', regardless of Azkaban?
Orion - Feb 19, 2008 12:49 pm (#1756 of 1982)
The joys of the english language. Dear Steve, if you could just post the most boring dictionary explanation then we would all learn some great new expressions. Please?
Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 12:49 pm (#1757 of 1982)
A vocabulary building exercise in English! Great!
Just as Orion said...
Erm... Pesky?
PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 12:57 pm (#1758 of 1982)
Sorry, guys .
It's really Steve's point, so I shouldn't add my interpretations, but I assumed that Steve means Sirius can make decisions like a nut (i.e. a crazy person) at times.
Orion - Feb 19, 2008 1:02 pm (#1759 of 1982)
Ah! Thanks Pesky! That is really, really the uttermost boring explanation in the dictionary! Now I understand.
Steve Newton - Feb 19, 2008 1:06 pm (#1760 of 1982)
Yep, he is not a steadying influence. A little, or maybe a lot, out of control. A bit crazy perhaps.
Julia H. - Feb 19, 2008 1:18 pm (#1761 of 1982)
Thanks, all of you! Now that's sorted out I am ready to focus on Sirius.
Soul Search - Feb 19, 2008 1:21 pm (#1762 of 1982)
I don't think I would go so far as to say Sirius was "crazy," in any way. Even during PoA.
I would say Sirius, even at Hogwarts, was too impulsive and failed to consider the consequences of his actions.
In PoA, Sirius is totally focused on killing Pettigrew. To protect Harry, he says, but we know Harry was not, at least then, in any danger from Pettigrew. Sirius just wanted to kill Pettigrew for betraying James and Lily and for setting him up for 12 years in Azkaban. Not unreasonable, actually.
Is he perfectly normal in PoA? No, but neither would I go all the way to "crazy."
wynnleaf - Feb 19, 2008 2:31 pm (#1763 of 1982)
Several of the characters in the series appear to think of Sirius as rash and speak about that as though it's a well-known opinion within the Order.
Molly directly calls him rash and says that Dumbledore thinks he is rash (or at least implied DD thought that). Further, DD himself makes decisions that kind of imply he thinks Sirius is rash. DD orders Sirius to stay in Grimmauld Place, even though a good dose of polyjuice or that charm that makes people occasionally invisible could help him take part in Order missions. And how many people actually recognize black dogs? Further, DD sets up the occlumency lessons for Harry without even telling Sirius, Harry's godfather, until after it's all planned with Snape.
And Sirius does actually do a number of rash things. He's a kind of "loose canon." Does everyone know what that means? Picture a loose canon, not anchored down, rolling around on the deck of a ship -- it's dangerous because no one knows where it will go next.
When Sirius was captured for murdering Peter, he apparently never declared his innocence. Yes, he may have "felt" guilty, but he didn't take steps that most people would and Peter ran free. After escaping from Azkaban, Sirius acted more like a guilty man than an innocent one, as DD points out. He didn't even try to contact anyone like DD or Lupin to explain his innocence, instead trying to sneak into Hogwarts and kill Peter himself.
During GOF, he came back to the Hogwarts/Hogsmeade area and lived in a cave even though that appears to have been contrary to DD's instructions to him at the end of POA. In GOF, DD wanted him to stay away from the castle, but he doesn't always do this.
He went to the train station in OOTP, thereby giving himself away to DEs as being in the country rather than in exile somewhere. And he even tried briefly to talk Harry into going out and meeting him outside Hogwarts.
I don't blame him at all for going to the Ministry at the end of OOTP, but many of his other decisions seem not just rash, but a bit irrational. Even his explanation to James for why to use Peter instead of himself as secret keeper is convoluted and dangerous, given that they all thought of Peter as weak to begin with.
Sirius "Prank" is so very risky both to Snape and to Lupin, Sirius' friend, that it's impossible for me to consider it something the typical 15 or 16 year old would do. It borders on the kind of risk-taking that is irrational, not just youthful high spirits.
Mrs. Black, if her portrait was any indication, seemed practically insane by the time she died. Bellatrix seems to have been kind of unstable even before she went to Azkaban. One wonders if there's any connection.
PeskyPixie - Feb 19, 2008 3:04 pm (#1764 of 1982)
"During GoF, he came back to the Hogwarts/Hogsmeade area and lived in a cave even though that appears to have been contrary to DD's instructions to him," -wynnleaf
If I'm not mistaken, Dumbledore is in correspondence with Sirius and suggests the cave to him. I'm not sure whose idea it is for Sirius to come so close to Hogsmeade, though.
"Bellatrix seems to have been kind of unstable even before she went to Azkaban." -wynnleaf
But Bella's crazy in love, so we can excuse her, can't we?
Soul Search - Feb 19, 2008 6:42 pm (#1765 of 1982)
Insanity in the Black family.
I think wynnleaf is on to something. While I wouldn't go all the way to crazy for Sirius, I would have to agree with rash and, at times, irrational. The prank was the worst example, since it endangered his friend Lupin, his werewolf secret, and Lupin's staying at Hogwarts. There could be no good outcome to the prank.
I wonder. Did James recognize this irrational tendency in his friend and that's why he was receptive to using Peter for Secret Keeper?
Bellatrix is plainly a murderous psychopath. Even killed her cousin and niece.
Mrs. Black must have been off the deep end for quite a while. I mean, blasting anyone who disagreed with her off the family tree. Kreacher liked her, although that may not be the best of endorsements.
The father paid a lot of money for an Order of Merit. Not quite right there, either.
Regulus, while noble, went a bit far, I thought.
Someone kept a boggart in a wardrobe.
Andromeda seems okay, although she did choose to marry a Muggleborn. Narcissa seems okay, except for her matrimonial choice.
Tonks is a bit obsessed on Lupin, but maybe that isn't the same thing. Happens all the time to otherwise sane people.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 19, 2008 11:29 pm (#1766 of 1982)
"Tonks is a bit obsessed on Lupin, but maybe that isn't the same thing. Happens all the time to otherwise sane people."
Thanks for the SPEW moment Soul Search...
Julia H. - Feb 20, 2008 11:32 am (#1767 of 1982)
Soul Search, you do stretch the meaning of "insanity" a bit if you include both Bellatrix and Tonks/Andromeda under the same label. However, I agree that it is not a particularly balanced family. But then they are related to most other pureblood families, as Sirius says. Can a certain level of insanity be the price for keeping up the pureblood status? (The Weasleys are different but perhaps they are magically protected by their interest in Muggles. In the Epilogue, Ron says "Granddad Weasley" would not like his grandchild to marry a pureblood.)
PeskyPixie - Feb 20, 2008 11:41 am (#1768 of 1982)
The Gaunts had most certainly gone bonkers via their extremely limited gene pool, so perhaps certain genes turn up quite readily in the Black family as well? However, I don't see them as truly insane -definitely impulsive though.
Steve Newton - Feb 20, 2008 11:41 am (#1769 of 1982)
I don't think that Sirius was insane just a little out of control, sort of.
Do folks think that he was the leader of the marauders?
wynnleaf - Feb 20, 2008 12:09 pm (#1770 of 1982)
I think Sirius and James led as a team. They appear to have met on the train to Hogwarts and it seemed to me that Sirius' decision to avoid Slytherin and perhaps even request Gryffindor was because he heard James, who he'd just liked and maybe admired, saying that he was hoping to be in Gryffindor. In other words, although he was bucking the family tradition, he seems to want to follow James. In the worst memory scene, James decides to attack Snape, but he did it in part as a reaction to Sirius' comments about being bored. If we take that literally (we probably shouldn't), it at least implies that James wants to do things that please Sirius. Further, it is Sirius that convinces James to use Peter as the Secret Keeper.
In Filch's detention files, Harry saw a number of records that seemed to indicate that James and Sirius tended to work together on various pranks or adventures, even if Lupin and Peter weren't involved.
It makes sense to me that Snape would assume that James knew about the "Prank" because they just seemed so much of a team it was probably difficult for him to believe that Sirius pulled the prank without James being a part of the scheme.
So my guess is that they jointly led the rest of the Marauders. In addition to other attributes and their mutual close friendship, they were also the wealthy purebloods of the group, which almost certainly gave them another edge on the other two.
Was Sirius insane? No, he was clearly quite lucid. It's just that Sirius does a lot of reckless things. The Prank, if nothing else, is at least reckless endangerment. But in fact all of the Marauders were into that somewhat, since the idea of roaming around the countryside with Lupin every month was definitely reckless endangerment of others. But Sirius didn't appear to me to have lost that tendency as an adult. And then he never got to really grow up, after about age 21 when he went to Azkaban. My impression of him is that he remained very adolescent in that rash sort of decision making of youth.
Steve Newton - Feb 20, 2008 3:39 pm (#1771 of 1982)
Its the worst memory scene that suggests to me that Sirius was the covert leader of the group. He sort of wound James up and let him go.
Julia H. - Feb 20, 2008 4:07 pm (#1772 of 1982)
Interesting thoughts, Wynnleaf and Steve. Without wanting to argue, I would like to mention that the fact that Sirius's Animagus form was a dog suggests to me that he was a faithful friend in the first place within the group (and otherwise).
PeskyPixie - Feb 20, 2008 4:26 pm (#1773 of 1982)
Ooh, that's an interesting observation, Julia. Sirius is the faithful dog, Peter is the 'rat', James is a stag. Does this represent pride? Nobility?
Mrs. Sirius - Feb 20, 2008 11:23 pm (#1774 of 1982)
But Bella's crazy in love, so we can excuse her, can't we?
Love or no love, Bella is just crazy. She's married to one guy Rudolfous, but doing any and everything for another.
Sirius's impulsive recklessness reminds me of the crazy behavior of the Gaunts. Inbreeding magnifies odd (crazy) behavior. Inbreeding may not automatically mean full mental melt down but it tends amplify the occurense of those quirks in a family.
Julia H. - Feb 21, 2008 1:56 am (#1775 of 1982)
"James is a stag. Does this represent pride? Nobility?" (Pesky)
I think the "stag" is someone who fights at regular intervals for ... hm ... territory (?) and women. (Alpha male?)
Orion - Feb 21, 2008 12:01 pm (#1776 of 1982)
I wonder how exactly it looked when the Marauders went maraudering. How did little Wormtail keep up with the big animals? How did Prongs avoid trampling him? And what did they do when Remus had an urgent desire to rip a human jugular vein?
Julia H. - Feb 21, 2008 12:14 pm (#1777 of 1982)
"How did little Wormtail keep up with the big animals?" (Orion)
Travelling on Padfoot's back?
zelmia - Feb 22, 2008 7:03 pm (#1778 of 1982)
I wonder how exactly it looked when the Marauders went maraudering. - Orion, you're hilarious! I've also thought that very same thing!
Choices - Feb 23, 2008 10:28 am (#1779 of 1982)
Orion - "I wonder how exactly it looked when the Marauders went maraudering."
Well, we do know it wasn't siriusly black outside because it had to be a full mooney for Lupin to change. :-)
zelmia - Feb 23, 2008 1:11 pm (#1780 of 1982)
Sirius was the covert leader of the group. - Yes, I think so too. James, as the more gregarious was certainly the one who appeared to be in charge. But Sirius was clearly the instigator in the Worst Memory, and probably in other instances as well. I say this in part based on his supreme disappointment that Harry won't take the bait, as it were in GF (or OP?): "You're less like your father than I thought". Sirius is almost insulting with this remark, and it is pretty clear that it comes from having assumed that Harry, like James, would simply go along with whatever Sirius wanted.
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Steve Newton - Feb 23, 2008 3:16 pm (#1781 of 1982)
That is the conclusion that I am coming to although I have only read DH once and will wait until the read a long gets to Snape's memories before rereading that section. I'll have to think about the Harry/Sirius interaction but it does occur to me that a covert leader would be the ideal Slytherin way of doing things and I think that in many ways Sirius was a Slytherin.
By the way, covert leaders are not bad things. Most groups have some people like this and it tends to get things done pretty well. Well, as well as regular leaders get them done.
Julia H. - Feb 23, 2008 3:18 pm (#1782 of 1982)
"I think that in many ways Sirius was a Slytherin." (Steve)
That's right. I agree.
Accio Sirius - Feb 23, 2008 4:54 pm (#1783 of 1982)
Steve,
Interesting thought. I wonder if Sirius hadn't met James on the train if he would have still been sorted into Gryffindor? I also am intrigued by the notion that, for lack of a better term, mental instability was a Black family trait. Mostly, though I think circumstances lead the Blacks to indulge the worst of their personal traits--ie Bellatrix's fundamentalism; Mrs. Black, disappointment and warped pride turned her hateful. Of course, Azkaban is enough of an explanation for me to believe it knocked Sirius off balance. That Sirius might have been predisposed is also a very interesting notion.
When thinking of the womping willow prank, as bad as it is, I still don't ascribe very deep motive with it. Mainly because I've been reading about teenagers and their almost complete lack of ability to think about consequences. There were a couple of young boys a few years back who ordered a pizza and when the guy came to deliver it, they took the parking brake off and the car drifted backwards down a hill. It struck and killed a girl. I can totally see them thinking it was just a wild prank, but of course, it had deadly consequences. If forced to think about it, they might have realized it and thought the better of it. I see similar stupidity in that.
wynnleaf - Feb 23, 2008 10:43 pm (#1784 of 1982)
The Prank, however, was equally Snape's own fault. (zelmia)
Snape's "fault," if it was any more than the willingness to break curfew and go to the Whomping Willow without permission (wow, that's so bad compared to sending someone into the jaws of death), in no way detracts from Sirius' culpability.
That's one of the huge fallacies kids are always trying to beg off on, the notion that because another kid is also culpable, their own blame is diminished. I get to hear that on an almost daily basis.
Soul Search - Feb 23, 2008 10:55 pm (#1785 of 1982)
"... Snape didn't have to listen to him, and Snape certainly didn't have to go down the tunnel." Very good point, zelmia.
Your statement has caused me to re-visualize the scene. Sirius, being facetious, makes an offhand remark to snooping Snape that he can find all about their marauding, all he has to do is prod the knot on the tree and go down the tunnel. He then lets out with his bark-like laugh. Sirius doesn't really expect Snape to do something so stupid.
But, Snape being obsessed with getting the marauders expelled, does go down the tunnel. Sirius laughs again, but James, recognizing the consequences, goes after Snape and stops him.
Sirius never intended Snape to be hurt. It was only Snape's spying and obsession with hurting the marauders that got him in trouble.
In this scene, Dumbledore would have recognized that the fault was Sanpe's, not Sirius's, and not expelled the marauders. Snape would have been chastised for doing something so stupid, and been forbidden to tell anyone about Lupin.
This scenario better fits the circumstances than Sirius, somehow, enticing Snape to go down the tunnel with the sole intent of getting Snape killed.
mona amon - Feb 23, 2008 11:51 pm (#1786 of 1982)
This scenario better fits the circumstances than Sirius, somehow, enticing Snape to go down the tunnel with the sole intent of getting Snape killed. (Soul Search)
In what way does it fit the circumstances better?
Sirius never intended Snape to be hurt. It was only Snape's spying and obsession with hurting the marauders that got him in trouble.
Sirius sends Snoopy Snape down the tunnel to meet a werewolf, but it wasn't his intention to get him hurt? What was his intention? What did he think the werewolf was going to do to Snape?
Sirius doesn't really expect Snape to do something so stupid.
Sirius knew that Snape was so snoopy that he would go and try to find out why Lupin went to the whomping willow every month. And that's why he told him. He knew Snape would rise to the bait.
Anyway it wasn't so very stupid. Snape had no idea that Lupin was a werewolf, and no doubt he wouldn't suspect that Sirius would actually endager his life.
Snape's "fault," if it was any more than the willingness to break curfew and go to the Whomping Willow without permission (wow, that's so bad compared to sending someone into the jaws of death), in no way detracts from Sirius' culpability.
That's one of the huge fallacies kids are always trying to beg off on, the notion that because another kid is also culpable, their own blame is diminished. (Wynnleaf)
I wholeheartedly agree!
Julia H. - Feb 24, 2008 12:39 am (#1787 of 1982)
"In this scene, Dumbledore would have recognized that the fault was Snape's, not Sirius's, and not expelled the marauders. Snape would have been chastised for doing something so stupid, and been forbidden to tell anyone about Lupin."(Soul Search)
The marauders were not expelled, or rather Sirius was not expelled because if someone is expelled, a reason must be given. In this case that would have meant revealing the secret of Lupin, who was probably innocent. It would have resulted in a scandal that could have easily forced Lupin to leave the school. Dumbledore is obviously concerned about Lupin, that is the reason why he forbids Snape to talk about Lupin's secret. While I can believe that Snape was chastised (he did break curfew and all), I seriously hope Sirius was chastised as well, since he had been obviously irresponsible and had done something (just for fun) that endangered someone's life. He knew very well how dangerous it was to go down that tunnel, knew that Snape did not know what would await him at the end of the tunnel, still he provided both the motivation and the possibility for Snape to go there. Of course, Snape did not have to go down there but that does not diminish Sirius's irresponsibility. If Sirius did not want Snape to be hurt, why did not he go after Snape when he realized that Snape was actually going into the tunnel? If he had not really intended to do any harm, why did he not stop Snape before he actually got into danger?
I agree with Mona and Wynnleaf.
Julia H. - Feb 24, 2008 3:45 am (#1788 of 1982)
Yes, it is quite probable that Snape was punished for breaking the curfew. It is true we don't know exactly why he listened to Sirius. It was not necessarily just Sirius telling him to do this or that and Snape obediently following the instructions. One of the possible versions is that Sirius suggested that Snape would not dare to do something they (the marauders) did and it may have been enough for Snape to try, especially if Snape did not know that a werewolf was at the other end of the tunnel. No, it was not wise but bravery may have been a frequent issue between the boys. (Draco also uses this method when he wants to trick Harry into doing something against the rules.) The way Snape taunts Sirius in OOTP about his "cowardly" hiding in his mother's house may be quite similar (perhaps even a reference) to the way the teenage boys used to taunt each other. (Snape knows very well how to make Sirius angry, just as Sirius knows how to make Snape angry.) However, Sirius caused someone to do something dangerous without telling him how dangerous it really was and also made it possible for him to do it by telling him how to get through the tree. It was something Sirius was not supposed to know and once he did he was not supposed to spread the information, since the tree had specifically been planted to stop anyone from going into the tunnel. This is not the same as telling someone to dye their eyebrows or even to jump off a cliff, in which cases the person can reasonably be expected to know the probable results. I mean Snape broke certain school rules and may not have acted thoughtfully but what Sirius did was knowingly risking someone's life and letting the person go all the way to a dangerous place whose real risks Snape could not anticipate. Sirius, however, knew the risks. It was more than breaking school rules.
mona amon - Feb 24, 2008 4:50 am (#1789 of 1982)
"Snape had no idea that Lupin was a werewolf"
- He certainly had his suspicions about it, which is what prompted Sirius to goad him in the first place. Lily tells Snape he is "obsessed" about Lupin's "condition" which implies that it's, at the very least, not the first time she has heard Snape's rantings on the subject. (Zelmia)
There is absolutely nothing in the books to suggest that Snape even suspected that Lupin was a werewolf, until he actually saw him with his own eyes. Lily accuses Snape of being obsessed with the marauders, not with Lupin's condition in particular. But anyway, this conversation takes place after the prank, when Snape already knew that Lupin is a werewolf, and he's trying to drop some hints to Lily without breaking his promise to Dumbledore.
If Sirius had told Snape to jump off a cliff (the mums' old standby), would that have been Sirius's fault?
Sirius does not tell Snape "there's a werewolf at the end of the tunnel" so the analogy does not work at all.
As McGonagall says, "No one has the right to wander the school at night...."
Yes, Snape was guilty of breaking curfew. Does that give Sirius the right to endanger his life?
Steve Newton - Feb 24, 2008 5:45 am (#1790 of 1982)
Mona, "Snoopy Snape" sounds like a character form the amazing series 'Charlie Brown and the Prisoner of the Dog House.'
I am not sure of the timing of the scenes where Snape is talking to Lily about his suspicions about Lupin so am not sure if he suspected Lupin before the Shrieking Shack incident.
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 6:37 am (#1791 of 1982)
Both Snape and Lupin characterize what Sirius did as a "trick." Snape says that if the trick had succeeded, the Marauders would have gotten expelled, which was why James backed out of it. Sirius says Snape "deserved" it.
Very importantly, Lupin says that Snape "had his reasons" for distrusting Lupin, and that it was this prank which involved Lupin. Lupin said, "He has been telling Dumbledore all year that I am not to be trusted. He has his reasons... you see..." and he goes on to explain. But the way Lupin sets up the sentence implies that Snape has at least somewhat legitimate reasons for distrust. Which once again implies a trick not just giving out correct information.
JKR never gives us any description of exactly how the trick was accomplished. But simply and only telling someone the secret of the Whomping Willow is not a "trick," because after all, that info on how to quiet the willow was quite correct.
The idea that Sirius just told Snape some information and everything else is Snape's fault certainly presupposes that Snape would believe anything Sirius told him and act upon it. In other words, we have to believe Snape is bone stupid to follow this idea. Further, it takes away the entire "trick" aspect to the event, which both Snape and Lupin attest to and Sirius certainly didn't argue with in Lupin's re telling.
So given that it was a "trick," not just the giving of a bit of crucial information, and given that Snape already detested Sirius and the Marauders in general and certainly wouldn't have trusted them (that's the whole reason he was, according to Sirius, always trying to get them expelled), it seems that Sirius must have actually tricked Snape into going down to the tunnel. How would he trick him? We have no idea. But whatever it was, Snape seemed convinced that if he'd gotten killed, all of those involved would have been expelled, not just Lupin, so it may be that more people knew about the trick, even if they didn't know exactly what happened to Snape in the tunnel.
In DH (sorry, I can't find my book this morning), didn't Lily mention the willow in some way?
Snape's conversation with Lily in DH implies that she'd heard his theories that Lupin was a werewolf in the past. I'm assuming that he wouldn't have presented those theories to her after the Prank, because he'd somehow been constrained by DD to tell anyone what he'd seen. On the other hand, it could simply be that after the Prank, he couldn't directly tell Lily about Lupin, but he was trying to hint, without actually saying that he'd seen Lupin and had the proof. Remember that Snape loved Lily and that he'd had a terrifying experience. Further, he didn't trust the Marauders. So it would make sense that he'd have some degree of fear for her and try to hint to her about Lupin. So we don't know that Snape suspected Lupin of being a werewolf. I find it hard to believe that a 15 or 16 year old went down that tunnel expecting to find a werewolf. That seems to be part of the point of the trick, according to Lupin's comments, that "he'd have met a fully grown werewolf."
But back to Sirius. Snape, Lupin and Sirius seem to be in agreement that it was a trick not just the dropping of some correct information. We can be fairly certainly Snape wouldn't have just believed just anything Sirius said, so somehow there was trickery involved.
Was Snape culpable? Sure, he went out after curfew and approached the Whomping Willow against the rules. Is it understandable? In my opinion, yes. Lupin was a prefect who had been giving tacit agreement (at the very least) to the bullies who had been oppressing Snape for years. He wanted him expelled and if he could discover something against him to accomplish that, he would be rid of at least one Marauder. Is that an okay motivation? Well, I do sympathize with it. It's clear that the staff were unable to control the Marauders, so if a student was trying to find some concrete evidence that one or more should be expelled, I can sympathize.
Does Snape's willingness to break those rules detract from Sirius' culpability? Of course not. In fact, Sirius was counting on Snape breaking the rule of getting close to the Willow. The whole idea behind his trick must have taken that into account. Did he think Snape would only be hurt by the Willow? Likely not, as he somehow conveyed exactly how to get past the Willow. So what did Sirius want? He seems to have wanted Snape to go into the tunnel and follow it. Did he know what was at the end of the tunnel? Yes. Did he know a werewolf was deadly? Yes.
Why did Sirius do all of this? According to Sirius, it was because Snape was always sneaking around trying to get them expelled and Snape "deserved it."
It doesn't matter who else was involved or what misbehavior from others Sirius was counting on. Sirius knowingly tricked (that's the word in the books) Snape into going down the tunnel into a potentially deadly situation. Sirius, whether or not he intended Snape to die, attempted to trick Snape into a deadly circumstance. Sirius was extremely culpable.
mona amon - Feb 24, 2008 6:45 am (#1792 of 1982)
"Snoopy Snape" sounds like a character form the amazing series 'Charlie Brown and the Prisoner of the Dog House.'
LOL!
Snape is definetely talking to Lily after the werewolf prank, because in the same conversation she says,"You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there." DH, Chapter33.
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 6:50 am (#1793 of 1982)
Mona amon,
Thanks for the info about what Lily said. That means that even given DD's orders to not tell about Lupin, someone gave a good deal of information about what went on. What we don't know is whether Snape had already given Lily theories about Lupin being a werewolf, or whether he had, after the Prank, been trying to hint to her without actually breaking DD's orders and telling her. After all, he did care about Lily and now he knew she was living in a House with a werewolf.
mona amon - Feb 24, 2008 7:09 am (#1794 of 1982)
Must have been after the prank. It just doesn't make sense to go down a tunnel when you strongly suspect there's a werewolf at the end of it.
ETA:That means that even given DD's orders to not tell about Lupin, someone gave a good deal of information about what went on.
Must have been James boasting about saving Snape's life to the whole Griffindor common room.
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 7:44 am (#1795 of 1982)
That means that even given DD's orders to not tell about Lupin, someone gave a good deal of information about what went on. (wynnleaf)
Must have been James boasting about saving Snape's life to the whole Griffindor common room. (mona amon)
Yes, I agree that it was probably the Marauders. After all, the spin Lily seemed to have heard was that James had done something heroic, which, true or not, wouldn't be the way Snape would have told the story.
Mrs Brisbee - Feb 24, 2008 8:17 am (#1796 of 1982)
I thought it clear from "The Prince's Tale" that this was the first time Lily had spoken with Snape in a few days. The "prank" happened a few nights ago, the attack on Mary a few days ago. This seems to be the first time Lily had spoken to Snape about either event. Snape's werewolf theory is old news, by contrast, something that they had spoken about prior to that particular discussion.
I find a lot of unclear things about the "prank". Snape alway blames someone else, so he's no help. How much did Sirius know? Personally, I think his part has been overblown, since it may have been no more than a flippant if stupid remark. However, he is culpable if he didn't suspect that Snape suspected Lupin was a werewolf, even if Snape suspected Lupin of being a werewolf and had no business doing what he was doing (Snape had seen Madam Pomfrey taking Lupin to the Whomping Willow, after all, so he knew the staff was informed about whatever was up with Lupin). Sirius's role was to give Snape the key to a door that everyone know wasn't supposed to be opened. Sirius is at fault for giving out the key, Snape is at fault for opening the door. There is plenty of blame to go around.
mona amon - Feb 24, 2008 9:13 am (#1797 of 1982)
I thought it clear from "The Prince's Tale" that this was the first time Lily had spoken with Snape in a few days. The "prank" happened a few nights ago, the attack on Mary a few days ago. This seems to be the first time Lily had spoken to Snape about either event. Snape's werewolf theory is old news, by contrast, something that they had spoken about prior to that particular discussion.
Not necessarily, Mrs. Brisbee. They were best friends, so its very likely they met each other every day. This was probably just the first time in a few days that they were having one of their arguments about Snape's choice of friends. Snape probably started dropping hints to her about Lupin being a werewolf immediately after the prank, which happened a few nights earlier.
The whole prank makes no sense if Snape already strongly suspected Lupin of being a werewolf. What did he then hope to gain by seeing him with his own eyes? Especially when he sees that Madam Pomfrey knows all about it?
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 9:15 am (#1798 of 1982)
How much did Sirius know? Personally, I think his part has been overblown, since it may have been no more than a flippant if stupid remark. (Mrs Brisbee)
The reason I disagree with this is because even Lupin says that Sirius "tricked" Snape. Sirius, who was listening, didn't disagree, but instead said that Snape deserved it. Lupin even cites this event as a reason which Snape has to distrust Lupin, since Snape thought Lupin was in on it.
There's no "trick" or "joke" and no way anyone could imagine someone else "in on it" if it was simply Sirius giving a piece of correct information, intentionally or inadvertently, to Snape. There has to be a trick involved and a sense that this could have been planned, else Lupin wouldn't understand why Snape could distrust him over it, nor would Lupin speak of Sirius "tricking" Snape. Further, even though Sirius is perfectly willing to say Snape "deserved" the Prank, no where does he say that Snape was to blame.
JKR doesn't tell us exactly how it all fell out, but she does have Lupin and Sirius make enough comments to show us that they did agree that it was the result of a trick which could have been construed as having been instigated by more than one person.
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 9:26 am (#1799 of 1982)
Another fascinating comment made in Snape's conversation with Lily is when he first brings up anything related to the Prank. He says, "What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?"
Lily answers, "What's Potter got to do with anything?"
"They sneak out at night. There's something wierd about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?"
Now what's interesting is that Snape seems to be tying the fact that the Marauders (plural) sneak out at night with Lupin being gone every full moon. By this time, Snape knows that Lupin is a werewolf. But the point about the rest of the Marauders sneaking out and the way he's drawing a correlation indicates, to me, that possibly Snape had realized that there was perhaps a lot more going on than just Madam Pomfrey taking Lupin somewhere every month. Snape had realized that the rest of the Marauders were sneaking out as well.
This wouldn't be surprising, because we saw that later in the Worst Memory scene, even after the disaster of the Prank, the Marauders were far from circumspect in discussing their monthly outings.
I think it sounds like Snape wanted to find out about Lupin not only to try and see if Lupin might get expelled, but to find out what was taking all of the Marauders out at night, in the hopes that they all might get expelled. After all, Sirius said that Snape was always sneaking around trying to get them (not just Lupin) expelled.
Since Snape had plenty of reason to want them expelled, this makes perfect sense to me. And given that it turns out that they were in fact regularly committing an offense strongly worthy of expulsion and regularly endangering the lives of many, I can't really fault Snape for this goal. Snape was right - the Marauders were doing something really bad that deserved expulsion. He didn't want them expelled because they were endangering others, but since they were endangering him personally, it's hard to blame him.
Anyway, it puts a little different light on the possibilities for how Sirius might have "tricked" Snape, given that Snape was concerned not just with where Lupin was going, but with where all of the Marauders were going and how that might add up to getting them expelled.
Julia H. - Feb 24, 2008 9:38 am (#1800 of 1982)
"The whole prank makes no sense if Snape already strongly suspected Lupin of being a werewolf." (Mona)
That is it, I don't think even Snape would have gone into the tunnel if he had had a reason to think there was something as deadly as that down there, not at least without hoping to really gain anything that is worth the risk and/or without any prior preparation.
"... it may have been no more than a flippant if stupid remark" (Mrs Brisbee)
The word "trick", which implies a purposeful action, seems to be contradicting that but even if that was the case, Sirius knew that Snape had actually gone there (since he told James) and yet, he let Snape go and did not go after him and did not try to stop him from going there, even though he knew how dangerous it was and had a reason to think that Snape did not know it. That is at least culpable negligence endangering someone's life with the negligent person first making it possible that someone could get into a probably deadly situation then knowingly letting it actually happen. It is bad enough but even worse if plotted.
I also think that the marauders let slip a few things about the Prank, like James saving Snape's life (which must have made Snape even angrier) in spite of DD's orders and without much consideration for their friend Lupin, who probably did not like the whole thing being talked about even if his involvement was not mentioned. It is also likely that Snape was concerned about Lily's safety - after all, if anything, that was important to him, as we see later.
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 6:12 pm (#1801 of 1982)
I don't agree that there was any sort of "trick" or "conspiracy" to what happened - other than in Snape's own mind, (zelmia)
Apparently Lupin and Sirius disagree about the "trick" aspect, and they must have known the whole story.
My guess is that Snape "went after" Lupin because he saw in Lupin the possible thing that might bring about the expulsion of the Marauders. He seems to have guessed that the Marauders going out at night was connected to Lupin (he was right). And if Sirius is correct, the sneaking around and following of their activities was because he wanted to find a reason to get them expelled. If he thought that connection between the Marauders going out at night and Lupin's mysterious "illness" would bring about their expulsion, it would have given him a strong motive to focus on Lupin. And if he did think that, it turns out that he was entirely correct. The Marauders going out at night was connected to Lupin's illness, and if Snape had discovered what they were up to they might well have been expelled.
rambkowalczyk - Feb 24, 2008 9:43 pm (#1802 of 1982)
It seems as though Snape knew that at least three of them were sneaking out at night. Lupin had an excuse in that Snape may have known that Pomphrey was taking Lupin out of the castle, so therefore he knew that Lupin wasn't breaking any rules. But James and Sirius would have been (I'm assuming Snape wasn't thinking of Wormtail here). Snape's motive was to get James and Sirius in trouble for being out of bed. (detentions not expulsions). Sirius expected this so he thought to lure Snape out of the castle by setting up a mystery as to where Lupin goes. Maybe he thought Snape would be caught before he got to the Willow or maybe he just didn't think it through. The point is the motive was to give the other detentions.
Make any sense?
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 11:00 pm (#1803 of 1982)
Except that Sirius evidently thought Snape was looking for something a lot worse, because according to Sirius in POA, he thought Snape was trying to get them expelled.
Julia H. - Feb 25, 2008 3:55 am (#1804 of 1982)
He either told the truth "simply" or in a way that could be tempting - the latter would be trickery. (It seems I am not the only one to think that Sirius had Slytherin-like characteristics as well, just as Snape had Gryffindor-like characteristics as well.) In any case, Sirius did not tell Snape the complete truth, because he did not tell him how dangerous it was to follow through with it all. Besides Sirius was not supposed to tell this particular "truth" to anyone. The way Snape tells the story sounds as if Sirius had said something that made Snape want to go there. Snape was also responsible for his actions but that does not diminish Sirius's culpability.
By the way, trickery is not the same as telling lies. You can perfectly mislead someone without actually pronouncing any real lies. Iago does not "really" tell lies to Othello, still he manages to make Othello believe something that is not at all true.
wynnleaf - Feb 25, 2008 6:23 am (#1805 of 1982)
How can there be any "trick" when Sirius simply told Snape the truth? (zelmia)
We don't know that he "simply told Snape the truth." Where did you get that anyway? And what makes you think it was a "simple" truth that Sirius told? Lupin doesn't give us any detail about how Sirius went about conveying info the Snape. But Lupin does call it a trick and he said it in front of Sirius who not only didn't contradict him, but said Snape deserved it. It is Lupin that calls it a trick. I'm just assuming that Lupin knew the full story and had no reason to call it a trick if it wasn't. And Sirius didn't disagree, and since it being a trick makes Sirius look worse, I think Sirius might disagree if that wasn't true.
And Julia is correct. Iago tricks Othello quite well without a direct lie and yet Iago's trickery is still considered despicable.
Accio Sirius - Feb 25, 2008 8:13 am (#1806 of 1982)
I always thought Sirius was being flip in goading Snape to go down the tunnel as well as when he says years later that Snape "deserved it." The sad part is one is said as a teenager, the other as an adult, perhaps illustrating the stunted emotional growth of Sirius.
Zelmia, my example of stupid teenage tricks wasn't a direct comparison, I was just trying to illustrate the mind set of kids who never even consider any possible consequences of their actions. It was entirely possible that Snape could have been maimed or killed by a werewolf. A car careening down a hill could easily hurt or kill someone. It's my feeling that Sirius, like these kids never even looked past the rush of pulling a prank. Rational thought didn't come into play. Not that it's an excuse--not thinking things through--but it happens.
mona amon - Feb 25, 2008 9:39 am (#1807 of 1982)
It's my feeling that Sirius, like these kids never even looked past the rush of pulling a prank. Rational thought didn't come into play. Not that it's an excuse--not thinking things through--but it happens.
I agree with you Accio Sirius. I also think that's exactly how it was.
We don't know that he "simply told Snape the truth." (Wynnleaf)
He either told the truth "simply" or in a way that could be tempting - the latter would be trickery. (Julia)
We do know what Sirius told Snape, "Sirius thought it would be -er- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me." (Lupin in POA)
So the trick was to tell Snape how to get past the willow, so that he'd be able to follow Lupin and come face to face with a werewolf. I'm sure Sirius thought that would be great fun, and never reasoned it out beyond that point.
Snape falls for the trick because he's so immoderately nosy about what the marauders are upto, and where Lupin goes every month, that he throws caution to the winds when he gets a chance to follow Lupin.
How can there be any "trick" when Sirius simply told Snape the truth? Where's the trickery? (Zelmia)
Sirius didn't tell Snape the whole truth. He left out the important part about the werewolf at the end of the tunnel. That's what makes it a trick.
wynnleaf - Feb 25, 2008 11:51 am (#1808 of 1982)
We do know what Sirius told Snape, "Sirius thought it would be -er- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me." (Lupin in POA) (mona amon)
Yes, I do realize that Lupin mentions this. My point is that Lupin doesn't explain how Sirius said it, in what context, or what else Sirius may have said to convince Snape to try it. I mean, do we really think Sirius could just walk up to Snape and say, "Here's the secret to the Whomping Willow. Prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick and you can follow Lupin." And Snape would just naturally believe his hated enemy, because, uh, he's just so naive and gullible. I mean, it's possible, within the parameters of the little we're told about it, for Sirius to have done that. But we aren't told how Sirius went about it, how he conveyed the information, what else he may have said, etc. What we do know is that Lupin considered it a "trick" and Sirius didn't disagree. Since Snape isn't typically depicted as naive and gullible, I find it difficult to believe Sirius just walked up, told him how to enter the tree, and Snape did it. Besides, this doesn't add up to trickery, nor does it add up to anything that anyone would construe as attempted murder. Snape may hold a grudge forever, but he's not stupid. I don't think adult Snape would call it attempted murder, even directly to Dumbledore's face, if all Sirius did was walk up and tell him how to press the knot on the tree.
Mrs Brisbee - Feb 25, 2008 12:11 pm (#1809 of 1982)
I mean, do we really think Sirius could just walk up to Snape and say, "Here's the secret to the Whomping Willow. Prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick and you can follow Lupin."
I actually think it plausible that something close to that scenario happened. Sirius catches Snape spying, and then makes the snide suggestion that if Snape really wants to find out what is going on.... And Sirius knows that Snape just can't resist the bait.
wynnleaf - Feb 25, 2008 1:32 pm (#1810 of 1982)
Sirius catches Snape spying, and then makes the snide suggestion that if Snape really wants to find out what is going on.... And Sirius knows that Snape just can't resist the bait. (Mrs Brisbee)
Okay, then what's the "trick?" But even more, and I really do think these need to be answered if someone has a theory,
1. What makes this a trick? Lupin calls it a trick and a joke. Why is this a trick or a joke or a prank?
2. Why would Snape consider such a smallish comment something James and Lupin had to be in on? What's there to be "in on" if this is all it is? Snape was convinced (probably wrongly) that they were all in on it. But that makes no sense if there wasn't anything to be "in on."
3. Why would Lupin consider this enough for Snape to "have reason" to not trust Lupin?
4. Why would Snape consider this tiny thing, just mentioning the knot on the tree, enough to make Sirius capable of murder? I think this is important, because it's not just teen Snape that thinks Sirius tried to murder him, it's adult Snape as well, to the degree that he says so to Dumbledore in a manner that suggests they've discussed in before. To call this attempted murder is a very, very far stretch, almost to the point of being irrational. It makes the whole thing primarily Snape's fault. Yes, I know zelmia thinks that, but Lupin tells the story in such a way as to make it seem primarily Sirius' fault and Sirius doesn't contradict that.
5. Considering that the Whomping Willow was quite a dangerous tree, and considering that Snape hated Sirius, why would he ever believe Sirius and act on Sirius' information? Was Snape naive? Stupid? Have we seen other times where Snape is naive, stupid or gullible?
I can see Snape being angry at Sirius for telling him a way into the Willow without telling him the danger, but I don't see how he'd equate that with Sirius being capable of murder. See, Snape is definitely a grudge bearer, but he we never see him lie in the books, or be naive, or stupid, or gullible, or irrational. Yes, he sometimes loses his temper in a huge way, but even then he's not irrational.
Julia H. - Feb 25, 2008 2:46 pm (#1811 of 1982)
"Sirius thought it would be -er- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me." (Lupin in POA)"
Perhaps the fact that Lupin uses the word "amusing" is also important with regard to the trickery nature of Sirius's idea. Snape uses the same word: "a highly amusing joke ... that would have resulted in my death". So both Lupin and Snape think that Sirius thought he had an "amusing" idea, which perhaps suggests that there was something in Sirius's behaviour that made it likely. Doing something because it is amusing is doing something for a particular purpose and it goes beyond the thoughtless mention of a true fact. What exactly did Sirius find amusing? Telling Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow or the idea that Snape would actually try? Since he did not try to stop Snape at any point of his attempt, it is rather likely that he even found it an amusing idea that Snape would suddenly find himself face to face with a werewolf. If by any chance he was still laughing when Snape and James came back, that would perfectly explain that Snape was and remained convinced that Sirius had wanted to kill him or, to say it in a different way, that Sirius valued Snape's life so little that he had had no scruples about purposefully sending him to his death.
mona amon - Feb 25, 2008 8:47 pm (#1812 of 1982)
But wynnleaf, there's a great big werewolf involved in the prank, and you have completely ignored it in your post!
1. What makes this a trick? Lupin calls it a trick and a joke. Why is this a trick or a joke or a prank?
The trick, joke or prank was to get an unsuspecting Snape to suddenly come face to face with a werewolf.
2. Why would Snape consider such a smallish comment something James and Lupin had to be in on?
Not the comment, but the werewolf. Snape thought that James (and Lupin?) were also in on the werewolf plan, and that James got cold feet later and went after him.
3. Why would Lupin consider this enough for Snape to "have reason" to not trust Lupin?
I thought he doesn't trust Lupin because he thought he would aid and abet his old friend Black.
4. Why would Snape consider this tiny thing, just mentioning the knot on the tree, enough to make Sirius capable of murder?
Snape knows that Sirius gave him the information about the willow only because he wanted him to go down the tunnel to meet the werewolf. Therefore he considers him capable of murder.
5. Considering that the Whomping Willow was quite a dangerous tree, and considering that Snape hated Sirius, why would he ever believe Sirius and act on Sirius' information? Was Snape naive? Stupid? Have we seen other times where Snape is naive, stupid or gullible?
This wouldn't be the first time that someone has fallen into the enemy's trap. It happens quite often. The trick is to exploit the enemy's weak point, which in Snape's case was his obsession with finding out what the marauders were doing. I does not make him generally stupid or gullible, though he was in this case.
It makes the whole thing primarily Snape's fault.
Snape's fault is in interfering with things that are not his business, and in allowing himself to be tricked by Sirius. Sirius's fault is in being so irresponsible, thoughtless, immature as to send an unsuspecting person down a tunnel to meet a werewolf. IMO, Sirius is a lot more culpable than Snape in this incident.
PeskyPixie - Feb 25, 2008 10:40 pm (#1813 of 1982)
"It's clear enough in the text that Snape already suspected Lupin of being a werewolf, ..." -zelmia
Actually, I feel this point is open for individual interpretation ... unless I've overlooked something, of course.
Julia H. - Feb 26, 2008 12:46 am (#1814 of 1982)
""It's clear enough in the text that Snape already suspected Lupin of being a werewolf, ..." -zelmia
Actually, I feel this point is open for individual interpretation ... " (Pesky)
We are never actually told what Snape knew or suspected about Lupin before the prank. We are told only that he wanted to find out what Lupin was doing. It seems there are basically two types of interpretations here (correct me if I'm wrong).
1) Snape was interested in Lupin because he had already suspected Lupin being a werewolf. That means going into the tunnel was entirely stupid and only Snape was to blame - after all he knew what to expect.
2) The fact that Snape went down the tunnel makes is likely (in the absence of any contradicting evidence) that he did not know he was going to face a werewolf there. On the whole, Snape was not at all a stupid person; and, if he already knew Lupin was a werewolf, there was not much to find out by taking an enormous risk. If he did not know what to expect, Sirius's responsibility for the prank is much greater (even if Snape was not exactly being careful).
I'm with the second interpretation. Snape did consider the whole thing a "joke" on Sirius's part that could have cost Snape his life, which makes it likely that he had not known he would find a werewolf there. The use of the word "amusing" also suggests that (according to Lupin and Snape) Sirius did not expect Snape to know what he was doing. Sirius's knowledge of how to get past the tree (together with the marauders' record of marauding) may have been an indication to Snape that they had already been there, so why should he not go?
When Lupin tells his story, it seems that it was not the usual thing to send teenage werewolves to school - that is why Lupin's secret had to be a secret. When Lupin is a teacher, it seems the only student who finds out he is a werewolf is Hermione but only after thoroughly researching the topic of werewolves for her home essay, although all the students know that Lupin is "ill" once in every month. So having a werewolf in a school may be something totally unheard of, which may be a reason why students do not even think about this possibility. (Werewolves are outcasts.) Lupin also mentions that Snape, in the end, did see him at the end of the tunnel and he seems to think that is the reason why Snape knew - afterwards - what he was and not because of some prior knowledge or suspicion.
wynnleaf - Feb 26, 2008 7:15 am (#1815 of 1982)
zelmia, I don't mean to be "accusing" regarding your comments (accusing of what?), but I do find myself frustrated because you tend to couch your language in very definite, "this is the way it is" sorts of words.
How can there be any "trick" when Sirius simply told Snape the truth? (zelmia)
You have commented on this repeatedly, even in the past and you seem to act as though it is a fact that Sirius only came up to Snape, told him how to press the knot on the tree, and that was that -- all the rest was only Snape's doing. You appear to base this primarily on Lupin's comments about the event, as though what Lupin says about it is a kind of exact account. But while Lupin's comments tell us some of what happened, Lupin does not phrase it as though he's quoting Sirius, or giving an exact play-by-play of what occurred. You say "Sirius simply told Snape the truth," not "Sirius may only have told Snape the simple truth," as though we know for a fact that all Sirius told Snape was the bit about the knot on the tree. But we don't know that it was all he said. We don't know how he said it, in what context, etc. Yet you act as though your interpretation is fact.
Another example:
"It's clear enough in the text that Snape already suspected Lupin of being a werewolf, ..." -zelmia
It obviously is not clear, as this discussion has pointed out. There are several possibilities for what was behind Snape and Lily's conversation in The Prince's Tale regarding Snape's suspicions of Lupin. Yet you act as though your interpretation is the only possible correct one.
What I don't get is that you take Lupin's comments regarding Sirius telling Snape about the knot on the Willow as though that is a complete account of all that Sirius did, yet you appear to completely disregard Lupin's assertion that Sirius "tricked" Snape, saying instead that it isn't a trick because of your interpretation that Sirius did or said nothing except only what Lupin mentioned in his comments. You mention that most posters are agreeing with you and I have no argument with them. Actually, I think most people were agreeing that Sirius did trick Snape.
So while I certainly don't mean to sound as though I'm attacking you personally, I do get a bit frustrated, because everyone else is willing to consider all of the questions involved and not argue as though their interpretive points are facts from the book.
I realize that we can all fall into that trap on occasion, getting so caught up in our theories that we see them as fact and disregard anything in the book that appears to bring that into question. I have obviously (obvious to anyone who's been around here long), done it myself. Still, it is frustrating in a discussion.
Soul Search - Feb 26, 2008 9:50 am (#1816 of 1982)
I am still wondering just how the "trick" came about. Who, what, when, where? Let me review what we know. wynnleaf, please review and let us know if I have overstated any canon, or something. I do value your canon knowledge.
It was a night of the full moon (or close enough.) Dark. After Hogwart's curfew.
Lupin had been escorted (It seems he was usually escorted, since it was after curfew.) He had to be escorted before moonrise, or whatever triggers his transformation, or otherwise he could transform on the way. Not good. We can't say for sure, but it is likely he had been escorted to the Whomping Willow, entered the tunnel (without escort?,) gone to the Shrieking Shack, waited for his transformation, and was on his way back from the tunnel, as a werewolf. I don't think this is too much of a stretch since we do know the Marauders frequently joined Lupin on a run through the forest. A stag couldn't fit in the tunnel, so Lupin had to come out.
Were was Snape? Snape was trying to find out about Lupin, so he must have followed Lupin and his escort to the Whomping Willow and was hanging around trying to see what was going to happen. He didn't, himself, see anyone prod the knot, (otherwise he wouldn't have needed to hear Sirius mention it.) The knot is a bit of a puzzle. We have Lupin telling about students in his day knowing about the knot and Davy (Guggens?) almost losing an eye. Did Snape already know about the knot? Did he just need to hear about the tunnel? He must have seen Lupin disappear and the escort go back to Hogwarts.
Where were Sirius and James? (Pettigrew doesn't matter.) Well, James, upon hearing that Snape had entered the tunnel, rushes after him and pulls him back. James couldn't have been too far away or Snape would have reached Lupin. So, James, at least, had to be close to the Whomping Willow. It is not a stretch to picture the Marauders waiting outside the tunnel for Lupin to come out so they could change into their animagi forms and run with him.
The Marauders used James' cloak to sneak out of the castle, so must have been together.
Were the Marauders and Snape all standing around jawing about the weather? No, Snape was hiding and watching. And listening!
Now we must speculate a bit, but the stage is set. Sirius must have seen Snape and decided to "trick" him by mentioning the knot, tunnel, and Lupin. The "trick" was that Snape didn't know Sirius knew he was listening. Had Sirius told Snape, face-to-face, to "go down the tunnel," Snape would have been suspicious. But, Snape thinking he was overhearing a secret discussion, was not suspicious.
A bit later, Sirius tells James that Snape had been listening and had gone down the tunnel. James then goes after Snape.
Sirius didn't pick Snape up and bodily throw him down the tunnel. He didn't even "tell" Snape to go down the tunnel. Snooping Snape thought he was overhearing a secret, and snuck down the tunnel completely on his own.
The whole "trick" was Snape's fault.
PeskyPixie - Feb 26, 2008 10:18 am (#1817 of 1982)
I've posted the following on the Snape thread. It is a theory of how the Prank may have occurred, based my 'interpretation' of the text.
Snoopy Sev knows that his rivals, the Marauders, have some sort of secret and has now discovered Lupin being escorted by Madam Pomfrey to the Whomping Willow. I imagine him tailing the duo silently and hiding among bushes/shadows while waiting for Madam Pomfrey to leave. When she does this he comes out of his hiding spot and notices that Sirius (who has plans with his chums that night) has arrived and Sev just can not resist a sneering gloat about how near he is to figuring out the Marauders' secrets and having them expelled. I can easily imagine Sirius' temper being triggered by this and responding with, "Why wait, Snivellus? Immobilize the tree by prodding that knot of wood and see for yourself what's down there. If you're not a coward, that is." Young men (not meaning to generalize of course) tend to take insults on their bravery quite seriously, and a young wizard as accomplished (and well-read in the Dark Arts) as Snape may have felt capable of handling a one-on-one with Lupin or anything else he might meet in the passageway in the roots of the willow. So, he enters without the slightest clue that a werewolf lurks beyond.
While Snape diligently picks his way through the tunnel, James arrives for the Marauders' 'night on the town'. Sirius laughingly tells him of little Snapey in the tunnel, to which James freaks out and goes into the tunnel to yank Snape back out. James' reasons (and the priority of different reasons) is open to 'individual interpretation' based on the various views we have about his character from the limited canon examples.
Now, Sirius may have underestimated ol' Snivelly enough to believe that he would just get the whipping of a lifetime from the willow. However, I feel that Sirius just considers the 'fun' of Snape's shock at discovering a werewolf without considering that Snape would be killed in the tunnel (or at the very least infected with lycanthropy) and that Lupin would be the one to bear this mark on his record (and conscience) for the rest of his life. While the intent may not have been murder (I think it may have been more of an ill-thought out dare) this is not a sufficient excuse/reason for the one nearly killed.
ETA: I remember the Davey Gudgeon incident as the kids having a game of trying to get as close to the willow without getting hit. I'll have to check on whether they actually knew about the 'knot'.
rambkowalczyk - Feb 26, 2008 10:22 am (#1818 of 1982)
Soul Search, I don't understand how you can say the whole "trick" was Snape's fault.
By your own admission you say Sirius knew Snape was listening but that Snape didn't know Sirius knew.
It sounds like you are saying that because Snape went down the tunnel he was wholly responsible for being attacked by a werewolf. Are you saying Sirius wasn't responsible for misleading Snape?
As someone previously pointed out, it could very well be unthinkable that a werewolf was attending Hogwarts. Snape could have thought that the tunnel under the whomping willow lead to someplace in Hogsmeade say the train station and Lupin went home or to St Mungo's.
Snape's motives weren't pure; his goal was to get the marauder's in trouble, so I can understand why some people feel Snape shares in some responsibility for what happened to him.
I disagree. Snape going after James and Sirius because he thinks they are up to no good reminds me of Harry's obsession with Draco in book 6. Harry had no proof that Draco was a Death Eater or that what he was going to do was seriously wrong. Harry was obsessed with Draco just as Snape was obsessed with James. One difference was that Draco made no attempt to trick Harry. If he did, and Harry got hurt would Harry be responsible for his own injuries because he was spying on Draco?
Julia H. - Feb 26, 2008 10:36 am (#1819 of 1982)
Soul Search, it is a possible scenario, though perhaps not the only possible one.
"Sirius didn't pick Snape up and bodily throw him down the tunnel." (Soul Search)
No, he did not. But he did intentionally lay a trap counting on Snape falling in and he knew how dangerous that trap was. He was also amused by the idea that someone (through his - Sirius's - trap) would suddenly find himself - unprepared - in a potentially deadly situation. (Not mentioning the unpleasant consequences for Lupin.) If he had not intended Snape to hear what he was saying, only had realized that someone who had apparently overheard them was approaching the tunnel, it would have been his moral duty to stop that person, to warn the person that it was dangerous. In your scenario, however, he intended Snape to overhear what he was saying and he intended Snape to try the experiment but never thought of stopping him. What I find inexcusable in the trick is that Sirius - whatever steps he actually took or not - was playing with someone's life and whatever was going to happen, he was ready to let it happen. This seems to be canon to me. He even found the idea "amusing". Even if we suppose he did not think the consequences over, he was still playing with someone's life and he never appears to have fully understood (any time later) why it was wrong.
ETA: Pesky's idea about the "dare" sounds plausible to me, both on account of what teenage boys are capable of doing and on account of Lupin's word that Sirius found it amusing to "tell" Snape ... and also because the question of bravery/cowardice seems to be an issue between Snape and Sirius later, when they are "grown-ups".
Ramb, very good points. I also thought that Harry's obsession with Draco seemed to be somewhat similar, he is trailing him, etc. (is he snooping?) and actually we see Draco's revenge when they are on the train and Harry finds himself immobilized and invisible and has to be rescued by Tonks. Is that OK for Draco?
Anna L. Black - Feb 26, 2008 11:59 am (#1820 of 1982)
Pesky, I find your scenarion very plausible. I think it fits with everything we know of the characters and their relationships with each other.
Oh, and regarding Davey Gudgeon - he didn't know about the knot, as far as we're told. The kids tried to get as close as possible to the tree, and touch its trunk, nothing more.
That is the conclusion that I am coming to although I have only read DH once and will wait until the read a long gets to Snape's memories before rereading that section. I'll have to think about the Harry/Sirius interaction but it does occur to me that a covert leader would be the ideal Slytherin way of doing things and I think that in many ways Sirius was a Slytherin.
By the way, covert leaders are not bad things. Most groups have some people like this and it tends to get things done pretty well. Well, as well as regular leaders get them done.
Julia H. - Feb 23, 2008 3:18 pm (#1782 of 1982)
"I think that in many ways Sirius was a Slytherin." (Steve)
That's right. I agree.
Accio Sirius - Feb 23, 2008 4:54 pm (#1783 of 1982)
Steve,
Interesting thought. I wonder if Sirius hadn't met James on the train if he would have still been sorted into Gryffindor? I also am intrigued by the notion that, for lack of a better term, mental instability was a Black family trait. Mostly, though I think circumstances lead the Blacks to indulge the worst of their personal traits--ie Bellatrix's fundamentalism; Mrs. Black, disappointment and warped pride turned her hateful. Of course, Azkaban is enough of an explanation for me to believe it knocked Sirius off balance. That Sirius might have been predisposed is also a very interesting notion.
When thinking of the womping willow prank, as bad as it is, I still don't ascribe very deep motive with it. Mainly because I've been reading about teenagers and their almost complete lack of ability to think about consequences. There were a couple of young boys a few years back who ordered a pizza and when the guy came to deliver it, they took the parking brake off and the car drifted backwards down a hill. It struck and killed a girl. I can totally see them thinking it was just a wild prank, but of course, it had deadly consequences. If forced to think about it, they might have realized it and thought the better of it. I see similar stupidity in that.
wynnleaf - Feb 23, 2008 10:43 pm (#1784 of 1982)
The Prank, however, was equally Snape's own fault. (zelmia)
Snape's "fault," if it was any more than the willingness to break curfew and go to the Whomping Willow without permission (wow, that's so bad compared to sending someone into the jaws of death), in no way detracts from Sirius' culpability.
That's one of the huge fallacies kids are always trying to beg off on, the notion that because another kid is also culpable, their own blame is diminished. I get to hear that on an almost daily basis.
Soul Search - Feb 23, 2008 10:55 pm (#1785 of 1982)
"... Snape didn't have to listen to him, and Snape certainly didn't have to go down the tunnel." Very good point, zelmia.
Your statement has caused me to re-visualize the scene. Sirius, being facetious, makes an offhand remark to snooping Snape that he can find all about their marauding, all he has to do is prod the knot on the tree and go down the tunnel. He then lets out with his bark-like laugh. Sirius doesn't really expect Snape to do something so stupid.
But, Snape being obsessed with getting the marauders expelled, does go down the tunnel. Sirius laughs again, but James, recognizing the consequences, goes after Snape and stops him.
Sirius never intended Snape to be hurt. It was only Snape's spying and obsession with hurting the marauders that got him in trouble.
In this scene, Dumbledore would have recognized that the fault was Sanpe's, not Sirius's, and not expelled the marauders. Snape would have been chastised for doing something so stupid, and been forbidden to tell anyone about Lupin.
This scenario better fits the circumstances than Sirius, somehow, enticing Snape to go down the tunnel with the sole intent of getting Snape killed.
mona amon - Feb 23, 2008 11:51 pm (#1786 of 1982)
This scenario better fits the circumstances than Sirius, somehow, enticing Snape to go down the tunnel with the sole intent of getting Snape killed. (Soul Search)
In what way does it fit the circumstances better?
Sirius never intended Snape to be hurt. It was only Snape's spying and obsession with hurting the marauders that got him in trouble.
Sirius sends Snoopy Snape down the tunnel to meet a werewolf, but it wasn't his intention to get him hurt? What was his intention? What did he think the werewolf was going to do to Snape?
Sirius doesn't really expect Snape to do something so stupid.
Sirius knew that Snape was so snoopy that he would go and try to find out why Lupin went to the whomping willow every month. And that's why he told him. He knew Snape would rise to the bait.
Anyway it wasn't so very stupid. Snape had no idea that Lupin was a werewolf, and no doubt he wouldn't suspect that Sirius would actually endager his life.
Snape's "fault," if it was any more than the willingness to break curfew and go to the Whomping Willow without permission (wow, that's so bad compared to sending someone into the jaws of death), in no way detracts from Sirius' culpability.
That's one of the huge fallacies kids are always trying to beg off on, the notion that because another kid is also culpable, their own blame is diminished. (Wynnleaf)
I wholeheartedly agree!
Julia H. - Feb 24, 2008 12:39 am (#1787 of 1982)
"In this scene, Dumbledore would have recognized that the fault was Snape's, not Sirius's, and not expelled the marauders. Snape would have been chastised for doing something so stupid, and been forbidden to tell anyone about Lupin."(Soul Search)
The marauders were not expelled, or rather Sirius was not expelled because if someone is expelled, a reason must be given. In this case that would have meant revealing the secret of Lupin, who was probably innocent. It would have resulted in a scandal that could have easily forced Lupin to leave the school. Dumbledore is obviously concerned about Lupin, that is the reason why he forbids Snape to talk about Lupin's secret. While I can believe that Snape was chastised (he did break curfew and all), I seriously hope Sirius was chastised as well, since he had been obviously irresponsible and had done something (just for fun) that endangered someone's life. He knew very well how dangerous it was to go down that tunnel, knew that Snape did not know what would await him at the end of the tunnel, still he provided both the motivation and the possibility for Snape to go there. Of course, Snape did not have to go down there but that does not diminish Sirius's irresponsibility. If Sirius did not want Snape to be hurt, why did not he go after Snape when he realized that Snape was actually going into the tunnel? If he had not really intended to do any harm, why did he not stop Snape before he actually got into danger?
I agree with Mona and Wynnleaf.
Julia H. - Feb 24, 2008 3:45 am (#1788 of 1982)
Yes, it is quite probable that Snape was punished for breaking the curfew. It is true we don't know exactly why he listened to Sirius. It was not necessarily just Sirius telling him to do this or that and Snape obediently following the instructions. One of the possible versions is that Sirius suggested that Snape would not dare to do something they (the marauders) did and it may have been enough for Snape to try, especially if Snape did not know that a werewolf was at the other end of the tunnel. No, it was not wise but bravery may have been a frequent issue between the boys. (Draco also uses this method when he wants to trick Harry into doing something against the rules.) The way Snape taunts Sirius in OOTP about his "cowardly" hiding in his mother's house may be quite similar (perhaps even a reference) to the way the teenage boys used to taunt each other. (Snape knows very well how to make Sirius angry, just as Sirius knows how to make Snape angry.) However, Sirius caused someone to do something dangerous without telling him how dangerous it really was and also made it possible for him to do it by telling him how to get through the tree. It was something Sirius was not supposed to know and once he did he was not supposed to spread the information, since the tree had specifically been planted to stop anyone from going into the tunnel. This is not the same as telling someone to dye their eyebrows or even to jump off a cliff, in which cases the person can reasonably be expected to know the probable results. I mean Snape broke certain school rules and may not have acted thoughtfully but what Sirius did was knowingly risking someone's life and letting the person go all the way to a dangerous place whose real risks Snape could not anticipate. Sirius, however, knew the risks. It was more than breaking school rules.
mona amon - Feb 24, 2008 4:50 am (#1789 of 1982)
"Snape had no idea that Lupin was a werewolf"
- He certainly had his suspicions about it, which is what prompted Sirius to goad him in the first place. Lily tells Snape he is "obsessed" about Lupin's "condition" which implies that it's, at the very least, not the first time she has heard Snape's rantings on the subject. (Zelmia)
There is absolutely nothing in the books to suggest that Snape even suspected that Lupin was a werewolf, until he actually saw him with his own eyes. Lily accuses Snape of being obsessed with the marauders, not with Lupin's condition in particular. But anyway, this conversation takes place after the prank, when Snape already knew that Lupin is a werewolf, and he's trying to drop some hints to Lily without breaking his promise to Dumbledore.
If Sirius had told Snape to jump off a cliff (the mums' old standby), would that have been Sirius's fault?
Sirius does not tell Snape "there's a werewolf at the end of the tunnel" so the analogy does not work at all.
As McGonagall says, "No one has the right to wander the school at night...."
Yes, Snape was guilty of breaking curfew. Does that give Sirius the right to endanger his life?
Steve Newton - Feb 24, 2008 5:45 am (#1790 of 1982)
Mona, "Snoopy Snape" sounds like a character form the amazing series 'Charlie Brown and the Prisoner of the Dog House.'
I am not sure of the timing of the scenes where Snape is talking to Lily about his suspicions about Lupin so am not sure if he suspected Lupin before the Shrieking Shack incident.
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 6:37 am (#1791 of 1982)
Both Snape and Lupin characterize what Sirius did as a "trick." Snape says that if the trick had succeeded, the Marauders would have gotten expelled, which was why James backed out of it. Sirius says Snape "deserved" it.
Very importantly, Lupin says that Snape "had his reasons" for distrusting Lupin, and that it was this prank which involved Lupin. Lupin said, "He has been telling Dumbledore all year that I am not to be trusted. He has his reasons... you see..." and he goes on to explain. But the way Lupin sets up the sentence implies that Snape has at least somewhat legitimate reasons for distrust. Which once again implies a trick not just giving out correct information.
JKR never gives us any description of exactly how the trick was accomplished. But simply and only telling someone the secret of the Whomping Willow is not a "trick," because after all, that info on how to quiet the willow was quite correct.
The idea that Sirius just told Snape some information and everything else is Snape's fault certainly presupposes that Snape would believe anything Sirius told him and act upon it. In other words, we have to believe Snape is bone stupid to follow this idea. Further, it takes away the entire "trick" aspect to the event, which both Snape and Lupin attest to and Sirius certainly didn't argue with in Lupin's re telling.
So given that it was a "trick," not just the giving of a bit of crucial information, and given that Snape already detested Sirius and the Marauders in general and certainly wouldn't have trusted them (that's the whole reason he was, according to Sirius, always trying to get them expelled), it seems that Sirius must have actually tricked Snape into going down to the tunnel. How would he trick him? We have no idea. But whatever it was, Snape seemed convinced that if he'd gotten killed, all of those involved would have been expelled, not just Lupin, so it may be that more people knew about the trick, even if they didn't know exactly what happened to Snape in the tunnel.
In DH (sorry, I can't find my book this morning), didn't Lily mention the willow in some way?
Snape's conversation with Lily in DH implies that she'd heard his theories that Lupin was a werewolf in the past. I'm assuming that he wouldn't have presented those theories to her after the Prank, because he'd somehow been constrained by DD to tell anyone what he'd seen. On the other hand, it could simply be that after the Prank, he couldn't directly tell Lily about Lupin, but he was trying to hint, without actually saying that he'd seen Lupin and had the proof. Remember that Snape loved Lily and that he'd had a terrifying experience. Further, he didn't trust the Marauders. So it would make sense that he'd have some degree of fear for her and try to hint to her about Lupin. So we don't know that Snape suspected Lupin of being a werewolf. I find it hard to believe that a 15 or 16 year old went down that tunnel expecting to find a werewolf. That seems to be part of the point of the trick, according to Lupin's comments, that "he'd have met a fully grown werewolf."
But back to Sirius. Snape, Lupin and Sirius seem to be in agreement that it was a trick not just the dropping of some correct information. We can be fairly certainly Snape wouldn't have just believed just anything Sirius said, so somehow there was trickery involved.
Was Snape culpable? Sure, he went out after curfew and approached the Whomping Willow against the rules. Is it understandable? In my opinion, yes. Lupin was a prefect who had been giving tacit agreement (at the very least) to the bullies who had been oppressing Snape for years. He wanted him expelled and if he could discover something against him to accomplish that, he would be rid of at least one Marauder. Is that an okay motivation? Well, I do sympathize with it. It's clear that the staff were unable to control the Marauders, so if a student was trying to find some concrete evidence that one or more should be expelled, I can sympathize.
Does Snape's willingness to break those rules detract from Sirius' culpability? Of course not. In fact, Sirius was counting on Snape breaking the rule of getting close to the Willow. The whole idea behind his trick must have taken that into account. Did he think Snape would only be hurt by the Willow? Likely not, as he somehow conveyed exactly how to get past the Willow. So what did Sirius want? He seems to have wanted Snape to go into the tunnel and follow it. Did he know what was at the end of the tunnel? Yes. Did he know a werewolf was deadly? Yes.
Why did Sirius do all of this? According to Sirius, it was because Snape was always sneaking around trying to get them expelled and Snape "deserved it."
It doesn't matter who else was involved or what misbehavior from others Sirius was counting on. Sirius knowingly tricked (that's the word in the books) Snape into going down the tunnel into a potentially deadly situation. Sirius, whether or not he intended Snape to die, attempted to trick Snape into a deadly circumstance. Sirius was extremely culpable.
mona amon - Feb 24, 2008 6:45 am (#1792 of 1982)
"Snoopy Snape" sounds like a character form the amazing series 'Charlie Brown and the Prisoner of the Dog House.'
LOL!
Snape is definetely talking to Lily after the werewolf prank, because in the same conversation she says,"You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there." DH, Chapter33.
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 6:50 am (#1793 of 1982)
Mona amon,
Thanks for the info about what Lily said. That means that even given DD's orders to not tell about Lupin, someone gave a good deal of information about what went on. What we don't know is whether Snape had already given Lily theories about Lupin being a werewolf, or whether he had, after the Prank, been trying to hint to her without actually breaking DD's orders and telling her. After all, he did care about Lily and now he knew she was living in a House with a werewolf.
mona amon - Feb 24, 2008 7:09 am (#1794 of 1982)
Must have been after the prank. It just doesn't make sense to go down a tunnel when you strongly suspect there's a werewolf at the end of it.
ETA:That means that even given DD's orders to not tell about Lupin, someone gave a good deal of information about what went on.
Must have been James boasting about saving Snape's life to the whole Griffindor common room.
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 7:44 am (#1795 of 1982)
That means that even given DD's orders to not tell about Lupin, someone gave a good deal of information about what went on. (wynnleaf)
Must have been James boasting about saving Snape's life to the whole Griffindor common room. (mona amon)
Yes, I agree that it was probably the Marauders. After all, the spin Lily seemed to have heard was that James had done something heroic, which, true or not, wouldn't be the way Snape would have told the story.
Mrs Brisbee - Feb 24, 2008 8:17 am (#1796 of 1982)
I thought it clear from "The Prince's Tale" that this was the first time Lily had spoken with Snape in a few days. The "prank" happened a few nights ago, the attack on Mary a few days ago. This seems to be the first time Lily had spoken to Snape about either event. Snape's werewolf theory is old news, by contrast, something that they had spoken about prior to that particular discussion.
I find a lot of unclear things about the "prank". Snape alway blames someone else, so he's no help. How much did Sirius know? Personally, I think his part has been overblown, since it may have been no more than a flippant if stupid remark. However, he is culpable if he didn't suspect that Snape suspected Lupin was a werewolf, even if Snape suspected Lupin of being a werewolf and had no business doing what he was doing (Snape had seen Madam Pomfrey taking Lupin to the Whomping Willow, after all, so he knew the staff was informed about whatever was up with Lupin). Sirius's role was to give Snape the key to a door that everyone know wasn't supposed to be opened. Sirius is at fault for giving out the key, Snape is at fault for opening the door. There is plenty of blame to go around.
mona amon - Feb 24, 2008 9:13 am (#1797 of 1982)
I thought it clear from "The Prince's Tale" that this was the first time Lily had spoken with Snape in a few days. The "prank" happened a few nights ago, the attack on Mary a few days ago. This seems to be the first time Lily had spoken to Snape about either event. Snape's werewolf theory is old news, by contrast, something that they had spoken about prior to that particular discussion.
Not necessarily, Mrs. Brisbee. They were best friends, so its very likely they met each other every day. This was probably just the first time in a few days that they were having one of their arguments about Snape's choice of friends. Snape probably started dropping hints to her about Lupin being a werewolf immediately after the prank, which happened a few nights earlier.
The whole prank makes no sense if Snape already strongly suspected Lupin of being a werewolf. What did he then hope to gain by seeing him with his own eyes? Especially when he sees that Madam Pomfrey knows all about it?
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 9:15 am (#1798 of 1982)
How much did Sirius know? Personally, I think his part has been overblown, since it may have been no more than a flippant if stupid remark. (Mrs Brisbee)
The reason I disagree with this is because even Lupin says that Sirius "tricked" Snape. Sirius, who was listening, didn't disagree, but instead said that Snape deserved it. Lupin even cites this event as a reason which Snape has to distrust Lupin, since Snape thought Lupin was in on it.
There's no "trick" or "joke" and no way anyone could imagine someone else "in on it" if it was simply Sirius giving a piece of correct information, intentionally or inadvertently, to Snape. There has to be a trick involved and a sense that this could have been planned, else Lupin wouldn't understand why Snape could distrust him over it, nor would Lupin speak of Sirius "tricking" Snape. Further, even though Sirius is perfectly willing to say Snape "deserved" the Prank, no where does he say that Snape was to blame.
JKR doesn't tell us exactly how it all fell out, but she does have Lupin and Sirius make enough comments to show us that they did agree that it was the result of a trick which could have been construed as having been instigated by more than one person.
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 9:26 am (#1799 of 1982)
Another fascinating comment made in Snape's conversation with Lily is when he first brings up anything related to the Prank. He says, "What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?"
Lily answers, "What's Potter got to do with anything?"
"They sneak out at night. There's something wierd about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?"
Now what's interesting is that Snape seems to be tying the fact that the Marauders (plural) sneak out at night with Lupin being gone every full moon. By this time, Snape knows that Lupin is a werewolf. But the point about the rest of the Marauders sneaking out and the way he's drawing a correlation indicates, to me, that possibly Snape had realized that there was perhaps a lot more going on than just Madam Pomfrey taking Lupin somewhere every month. Snape had realized that the rest of the Marauders were sneaking out as well.
This wouldn't be surprising, because we saw that later in the Worst Memory scene, even after the disaster of the Prank, the Marauders were far from circumspect in discussing their monthly outings.
I think it sounds like Snape wanted to find out about Lupin not only to try and see if Lupin might get expelled, but to find out what was taking all of the Marauders out at night, in the hopes that they all might get expelled. After all, Sirius said that Snape was always sneaking around trying to get them (not just Lupin) expelled.
Since Snape had plenty of reason to want them expelled, this makes perfect sense to me. And given that it turns out that they were in fact regularly committing an offense strongly worthy of expulsion and regularly endangering the lives of many, I can't really fault Snape for this goal. Snape was right - the Marauders were doing something really bad that deserved expulsion. He didn't want them expelled because they were endangering others, but since they were endangering him personally, it's hard to blame him.
Anyway, it puts a little different light on the possibilities for how Sirius might have "tricked" Snape, given that Snape was concerned not just with where Lupin was going, but with where all of the Marauders were going and how that might add up to getting them expelled.
Julia H. - Feb 24, 2008 9:38 am (#1800 of 1982)
"The whole prank makes no sense if Snape already strongly suspected Lupin of being a werewolf." (Mona)
That is it, I don't think even Snape would have gone into the tunnel if he had had a reason to think there was something as deadly as that down there, not at least without hoping to really gain anything that is worth the risk and/or without any prior preparation.
"... it may have been no more than a flippant if stupid remark" (Mrs Brisbee)
The word "trick", which implies a purposeful action, seems to be contradicting that but even if that was the case, Sirius knew that Snape had actually gone there (since he told James) and yet, he let Snape go and did not go after him and did not try to stop him from going there, even though he knew how dangerous it was and had a reason to think that Snape did not know it. That is at least culpable negligence endangering someone's life with the negligent person first making it possible that someone could get into a probably deadly situation then knowingly letting it actually happen. It is bad enough but even worse if plotted.
I also think that the marauders let slip a few things about the Prank, like James saving Snape's life (which must have made Snape even angrier) in spite of DD's orders and without much consideration for their friend Lupin, who probably did not like the whole thing being talked about even if his involvement was not mentioned. It is also likely that Snape was concerned about Lily's safety - after all, if anything, that was important to him, as we see later.
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 6:12 pm (#1801 of 1982)
I don't agree that there was any sort of "trick" or "conspiracy" to what happened - other than in Snape's own mind, (zelmia)
Apparently Lupin and Sirius disagree about the "trick" aspect, and they must have known the whole story.
My guess is that Snape "went after" Lupin because he saw in Lupin the possible thing that might bring about the expulsion of the Marauders. He seems to have guessed that the Marauders going out at night was connected to Lupin (he was right). And if Sirius is correct, the sneaking around and following of their activities was because he wanted to find a reason to get them expelled. If he thought that connection between the Marauders going out at night and Lupin's mysterious "illness" would bring about their expulsion, it would have given him a strong motive to focus on Lupin. And if he did think that, it turns out that he was entirely correct. The Marauders going out at night was connected to Lupin's illness, and if Snape had discovered what they were up to they might well have been expelled.
rambkowalczyk - Feb 24, 2008 9:43 pm (#1802 of 1982)
It seems as though Snape knew that at least three of them were sneaking out at night. Lupin had an excuse in that Snape may have known that Pomphrey was taking Lupin out of the castle, so therefore he knew that Lupin wasn't breaking any rules. But James and Sirius would have been (I'm assuming Snape wasn't thinking of Wormtail here). Snape's motive was to get James and Sirius in trouble for being out of bed. (detentions not expulsions). Sirius expected this so he thought to lure Snape out of the castle by setting up a mystery as to where Lupin goes. Maybe he thought Snape would be caught before he got to the Willow or maybe he just didn't think it through. The point is the motive was to give the other detentions.
Make any sense?
wynnleaf - Feb 24, 2008 11:00 pm (#1803 of 1982)
Except that Sirius evidently thought Snape was looking for something a lot worse, because according to Sirius in POA, he thought Snape was trying to get them expelled.
Julia H. - Feb 25, 2008 3:55 am (#1804 of 1982)
He either told the truth "simply" or in a way that could be tempting - the latter would be trickery. (It seems I am not the only one to think that Sirius had Slytherin-like characteristics as well, just as Snape had Gryffindor-like characteristics as well.) In any case, Sirius did not tell Snape the complete truth, because he did not tell him how dangerous it was to follow through with it all. Besides Sirius was not supposed to tell this particular "truth" to anyone. The way Snape tells the story sounds as if Sirius had said something that made Snape want to go there. Snape was also responsible for his actions but that does not diminish Sirius's culpability.
By the way, trickery is not the same as telling lies. You can perfectly mislead someone without actually pronouncing any real lies. Iago does not "really" tell lies to Othello, still he manages to make Othello believe something that is not at all true.
wynnleaf - Feb 25, 2008 6:23 am (#1805 of 1982)
How can there be any "trick" when Sirius simply told Snape the truth? (zelmia)
We don't know that he "simply told Snape the truth." Where did you get that anyway? And what makes you think it was a "simple" truth that Sirius told? Lupin doesn't give us any detail about how Sirius went about conveying info the Snape. But Lupin does call it a trick and he said it in front of Sirius who not only didn't contradict him, but said Snape deserved it. It is Lupin that calls it a trick. I'm just assuming that Lupin knew the full story and had no reason to call it a trick if it wasn't. And Sirius didn't disagree, and since it being a trick makes Sirius look worse, I think Sirius might disagree if that wasn't true.
And Julia is correct. Iago tricks Othello quite well without a direct lie and yet Iago's trickery is still considered despicable.
Accio Sirius - Feb 25, 2008 8:13 am (#1806 of 1982)
I always thought Sirius was being flip in goading Snape to go down the tunnel as well as when he says years later that Snape "deserved it." The sad part is one is said as a teenager, the other as an adult, perhaps illustrating the stunted emotional growth of Sirius.
Zelmia, my example of stupid teenage tricks wasn't a direct comparison, I was just trying to illustrate the mind set of kids who never even consider any possible consequences of their actions. It was entirely possible that Snape could have been maimed or killed by a werewolf. A car careening down a hill could easily hurt or kill someone. It's my feeling that Sirius, like these kids never even looked past the rush of pulling a prank. Rational thought didn't come into play. Not that it's an excuse--not thinking things through--but it happens.
mona amon - Feb 25, 2008 9:39 am (#1807 of 1982)
It's my feeling that Sirius, like these kids never even looked past the rush of pulling a prank. Rational thought didn't come into play. Not that it's an excuse--not thinking things through--but it happens.
I agree with you Accio Sirius. I also think that's exactly how it was.
We don't know that he "simply told Snape the truth." (Wynnleaf)
He either told the truth "simply" or in a way that could be tempting - the latter would be trickery. (Julia)
We do know what Sirius told Snape, "Sirius thought it would be -er- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me." (Lupin in POA)
So the trick was to tell Snape how to get past the willow, so that he'd be able to follow Lupin and come face to face with a werewolf. I'm sure Sirius thought that would be great fun, and never reasoned it out beyond that point.
Snape falls for the trick because he's so immoderately nosy about what the marauders are upto, and where Lupin goes every month, that he throws caution to the winds when he gets a chance to follow Lupin.
How can there be any "trick" when Sirius simply told Snape the truth? Where's the trickery? (Zelmia)
Sirius didn't tell Snape the whole truth. He left out the important part about the werewolf at the end of the tunnel. That's what makes it a trick.
wynnleaf - Feb 25, 2008 11:51 am (#1808 of 1982)
We do know what Sirius told Snape, "Sirius thought it would be -er- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me." (Lupin in POA) (mona amon)
Yes, I do realize that Lupin mentions this. My point is that Lupin doesn't explain how Sirius said it, in what context, or what else Sirius may have said to convince Snape to try it. I mean, do we really think Sirius could just walk up to Snape and say, "Here's the secret to the Whomping Willow. Prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick and you can follow Lupin." And Snape would just naturally believe his hated enemy, because, uh, he's just so naive and gullible. I mean, it's possible, within the parameters of the little we're told about it, for Sirius to have done that. But we aren't told how Sirius went about it, how he conveyed the information, what else he may have said, etc. What we do know is that Lupin considered it a "trick" and Sirius didn't disagree. Since Snape isn't typically depicted as naive and gullible, I find it difficult to believe Sirius just walked up, told him how to enter the tree, and Snape did it. Besides, this doesn't add up to trickery, nor does it add up to anything that anyone would construe as attempted murder. Snape may hold a grudge forever, but he's not stupid. I don't think adult Snape would call it attempted murder, even directly to Dumbledore's face, if all Sirius did was walk up and tell him how to press the knot on the tree.
Mrs Brisbee - Feb 25, 2008 12:11 pm (#1809 of 1982)
I mean, do we really think Sirius could just walk up to Snape and say, "Here's the secret to the Whomping Willow. Prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick and you can follow Lupin."
I actually think it plausible that something close to that scenario happened. Sirius catches Snape spying, and then makes the snide suggestion that if Snape really wants to find out what is going on.... And Sirius knows that Snape just can't resist the bait.
wynnleaf - Feb 25, 2008 1:32 pm (#1810 of 1982)
Sirius catches Snape spying, and then makes the snide suggestion that if Snape really wants to find out what is going on.... And Sirius knows that Snape just can't resist the bait. (Mrs Brisbee)
Okay, then what's the "trick?" But even more, and I really do think these need to be answered if someone has a theory,
1. What makes this a trick? Lupin calls it a trick and a joke. Why is this a trick or a joke or a prank?
2. Why would Snape consider such a smallish comment something James and Lupin had to be in on? What's there to be "in on" if this is all it is? Snape was convinced (probably wrongly) that they were all in on it. But that makes no sense if there wasn't anything to be "in on."
3. Why would Lupin consider this enough for Snape to "have reason" to not trust Lupin?
4. Why would Snape consider this tiny thing, just mentioning the knot on the tree, enough to make Sirius capable of murder? I think this is important, because it's not just teen Snape that thinks Sirius tried to murder him, it's adult Snape as well, to the degree that he says so to Dumbledore in a manner that suggests they've discussed in before. To call this attempted murder is a very, very far stretch, almost to the point of being irrational. It makes the whole thing primarily Snape's fault. Yes, I know zelmia thinks that, but Lupin tells the story in such a way as to make it seem primarily Sirius' fault and Sirius doesn't contradict that.
5. Considering that the Whomping Willow was quite a dangerous tree, and considering that Snape hated Sirius, why would he ever believe Sirius and act on Sirius' information? Was Snape naive? Stupid? Have we seen other times where Snape is naive, stupid or gullible?
I can see Snape being angry at Sirius for telling him a way into the Willow without telling him the danger, but I don't see how he'd equate that with Sirius being capable of murder. See, Snape is definitely a grudge bearer, but he we never see him lie in the books, or be naive, or stupid, or gullible, or irrational. Yes, he sometimes loses his temper in a huge way, but even then he's not irrational.
Julia H. - Feb 25, 2008 2:46 pm (#1811 of 1982)
"Sirius thought it would be -er- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me." (Lupin in POA)"
Perhaps the fact that Lupin uses the word "amusing" is also important with regard to the trickery nature of Sirius's idea. Snape uses the same word: "a highly amusing joke ... that would have resulted in my death". So both Lupin and Snape think that Sirius thought he had an "amusing" idea, which perhaps suggests that there was something in Sirius's behaviour that made it likely. Doing something because it is amusing is doing something for a particular purpose and it goes beyond the thoughtless mention of a true fact. What exactly did Sirius find amusing? Telling Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow or the idea that Snape would actually try? Since he did not try to stop Snape at any point of his attempt, it is rather likely that he even found it an amusing idea that Snape would suddenly find himself face to face with a werewolf. If by any chance he was still laughing when Snape and James came back, that would perfectly explain that Snape was and remained convinced that Sirius had wanted to kill him or, to say it in a different way, that Sirius valued Snape's life so little that he had had no scruples about purposefully sending him to his death.
mona amon - Feb 25, 2008 8:47 pm (#1812 of 1982)
But wynnleaf, there's a great big werewolf involved in the prank, and you have completely ignored it in your post!
1. What makes this a trick? Lupin calls it a trick and a joke. Why is this a trick or a joke or a prank?
The trick, joke or prank was to get an unsuspecting Snape to suddenly come face to face with a werewolf.
2. Why would Snape consider such a smallish comment something James and Lupin had to be in on?
Not the comment, but the werewolf. Snape thought that James (and Lupin?) were also in on the werewolf plan, and that James got cold feet later and went after him.
3. Why would Lupin consider this enough for Snape to "have reason" to not trust Lupin?
I thought he doesn't trust Lupin because he thought he would aid and abet his old friend Black.
4. Why would Snape consider this tiny thing, just mentioning the knot on the tree, enough to make Sirius capable of murder?
Snape knows that Sirius gave him the information about the willow only because he wanted him to go down the tunnel to meet the werewolf. Therefore he considers him capable of murder.
5. Considering that the Whomping Willow was quite a dangerous tree, and considering that Snape hated Sirius, why would he ever believe Sirius and act on Sirius' information? Was Snape naive? Stupid? Have we seen other times where Snape is naive, stupid or gullible?
This wouldn't be the first time that someone has fallen into the enemy's trap. It happens quite often. The trick is to exploit the enemy's weak point, which in Snape's case was his obsession with finding out what the marauders were doing. I does not make him generally stupid or gullible, though he was in this case.
It makes the whole thing primarily Snape's fault.
Snape's fault is in interfering with things that are not his business, and in allowing himself to be tricked by Sirius. Sirius's fault is in being so irresponsible, thoughtless, immature as to send an unsuspecting person down a tunnel to meet a werewolf. IMO, Sirius is a lot more culpable than Snape in this incident.
PeskyPixie - Feb 25, 2008 10:40 pm (#1813 of 1982)
"It's clear enough in the text that Snape already suspected Lupin of being a werewolf, ..." -zelmia
Actually, I feel this point is open for individual interpretation ... unless I've overlooked something, of course.
Julia H. - Feb 26, 2008 12:46 am (#1814 of 1982)
""It's clear enough in the text that Snape already suspected Lupin of being a werewolf, ..." -zelmia
Actually, I feel this point is open for individual interpretation ... " (Pesky)
We are never actually told what Snape knew or suspected about Lupin before the prank. We are told only that he wanted to find out what Lupin was doing. It seems there are basically two types of interpretations here (correct me if I'm wrong).
1) Snape was interested in Lupin because he had already suspected Lupin being a werewolf. That means going into the tunnel was entirely stupid and only Snape was to blame - after all he knew what to expect.
2) The fact that Snape went down the tunnel makes is likely (in the absence of any contradicting evidence) that he did not know he was going to face a werewolf there. On the whole, Snape was not at all a stupid person; and, if he already knew Lupin was a werewolf, there was not much to find out by taking an enormous risk. If he did not know what to expect, Sirius's responsibility for the prank is much greater (even if Snape was not exactly being careful).
I'm with the second interpretation. Snape did consider the whole thing a "joke" on Sirius's part that could have cost Snape his life, which makes it likely that he had not known he would find a werewolf there. The use of the word "amusing" also suggests that (according to Lupin and Snape) Sirius did not expect Snape to know what he was doing. Sirius's knowledge of how to get past the tree (together with the marauders' record of marauding) may have been an indication to Snape that they had already been there, so why should he not go?
When Lupin tells his story, it seems that it was not the usual thing to send teenage werewolves to school - that is why Lupin's secret had to be a secret. When Lupin is a teacher, it seems the only student who finds out he is a werewolf is Hermione but only after thoroughly researching the topic of werewolves for her home essay, although all the students know that Lupin is "ill" once in every month. So having a werewolf in a school may be something totally unheard of, which may be a reason why students do not even think about this possibility. (Werewolves are outcasts.) Lupin also mentions that Snape, in the end, did see him at the end of the tunnel and he seems to think that is the reason why Snape knew - afterwards - what he was and not because of some prior knowledge or suspicion.
wynnleaf - Feb 26, 2008 7:15 am (#1815 of 1982)
zelmia, I don't mean to be "accusing" regarding your comments (accusing of what?), but I do find myself frustrated because you tend to couch your language in very definite, "this is the way it is" sorts of words.
How can there be any "trick" when Sirius simply told Snape the truth? (zelmia)
You have commented on this repeatedly, even in the past and you seem to act as though it is a fact that Sirius only came up to Snape, told him how to press the knot on the tree, and that was that -- all the rest was only Snape's doing. You appear to base this primarily on Lupin's comments about the event, as though what Lupin says about it is a kind of exact account. But while Lupin's comments tell us some of what happened, Lupin does not phrase it as though he's quoting Sirius, or giving an exact play-by-play of what occurred. You say "Sirius simply told Snape the truth," not "Sirius may only have told Snape the simple truth," as though we know for a fact that all Sirius told Snape was the bit about the knot on the tree. But we don't know that it was all he said. We don't know how he said it, in what context, etc. Yet you act as though your interpretation is fact.
Another example:
"It's clear enough in the text that Snape already suspected Lupin of being a werewolf, ..." -zelmia
It obviously is not clear, as this discussion has pointed out. There are several possibilities for what was behind Snape and Lily's conversation in The Prince's Tale regarding Snape's suspicions of Lupin. Yet you act as though your interpretation is the only possible correct one.
What I don't get is that you take Lupin's comments regarding Sirius telling Snape about the knot on the Willow as though that is a complete account of all that Sirius did, yet you appear to completely disregard Lupin's assertion that Sirius "tricked" Snape, saying instead that it isn't a trick because of your interpretation that Sirius did or said nothing except only what Lupin mentioned in his comments. You mention that most posters are agreeing with you and I have no argument with them. Actually, I think most people were agreeing that Sirius did trick Snape.
So while I certainly don't mean to sound as though I'm attacking you personally, I do get a bit frustrated, because everyone else is willing to consider all of the questions involved and not argue as though their interpretive points are facts from the book.
I realize that we can all fall into that trap on occasion, getting so caught up in our theories that we see them as fact and disregard anything in the book that appears to bring that into question. I have obviously (obvious to anyone who's been around here long), done it myself. Still, it is frustrating in a discussion.
Soul Search - Feb 26, 2008 9:50 am (#1816 of 1982)
I am still wondering just how the "trick" came about. Who, what, when, where? Let me review what we know. wynnleaf, please review and let us know if I have overstated any canon, or something. I do value your canon knowledge.
It was a night of the full moon (or close enough.) Dark. After Hogwart's curfew.
Lupin had been escorted (It seems he was usually escorted, since it was after curfew.) He had to be escorted before moonrise, or whatever triggers his transformation, or otherwise he could transform on the way. Not good. We can't say for sure, but it is likely he had been escorted to the Whomping Willow, entered the tunnel (without escort?,) gone to the Shrieking Shack, waited for his transformation, and was on his way back from the tunnel, as a werewolf. I don't think this is too much of a stretch since we do know the Marauders frequently joined Lupin on a run through the forest. A stag couldn't fit in the tunnel, so Lupin had to come out.
Were was Snape? Snape was trying to find out about Lupin, so he must have followed Lupin and his escort to the Whomping Willow and was hanging around trying to see what was going to happen. He didn't, himself, see anyone prod the knot, (otherwise he wouldn't have needed to hear Sirius mention it.) The knot is a bit of a puzzle. We have Lupin telling about students in his day knowing about the knot and Davy (Guggens?) almost losing an eye. Did Snape already know about the knot? Did he just need to hear about the tunnel? He must have seen Lupin disappear and the escort go back to Hogwarts.
Where were Sirius and James? (Pettigrew doesn't matter.) Well, James, upon hearing that Snape had entered the tunnel, rushes after him and pulls him back. James couldn't have been too far away or Snape would have reached Lupin. So, James, at least, had to be close to the Whomping Willow. It is not a stretch to picture the Marauders waiting outside the tunnel for Lupin to come out so they could change into their animagi forms and run with him.
The Marauders used James' cloak to sneak out of the castle, so must have been together.
Were the Marauders and Snape all standing around jawing about the weather? No, Snape was hiding and watching. And listening!
Now we must speculate a bit, but the stage is set. Sirius must have seen Snape and decided to "trick" him by mentioning the knot, tunnel, and Lupin. The "trick" was that Snape didn't know Sirius knew he was listening. Had Sirius told Snape, face-to-face, to "go down the tunnel," Snape would have been suspicious. But, Snape thinking he was overhearing a secret discussion, was not suspicious.
A bit later, Sirius tells James that Snape had been listening and had gone down the tunnel. James then goes after Snape.
Sirius didn't pick Snape up and bodily throw him down the tunnel. He didn't even "tell" Snape to go down the tunnel. Snooping Snape thought he was overhearing a secret, and snuck down the tunnel completely on his own.
The whole "trick" was Snape's fault.
PeskyPixie - Feb 26, 2008 10:18 am (#1817 of 1982)
I've posted the following on the Snape thread. It is a theory of how the Prank may have occurred, based my 'interpretation' of the text.
Snoopy Sev knows that his rivals, the Marauders, have some sort of secret and has now discovered Lupin being escorted by Madam Pomfrey to the Whomping Willow. I imagine him tailing the duo silently and hiding among bushes/shadows while waiting for Madam Pomfrey to leave. When she does this he comes out of his hiding spot and notices that Sirius (who has plans with his chums that night) has arrived and Sev just can not resist a sneering gloat about how near he is to figuring out the Marauders' secrets and having them expelled. I can easily imagine Sirius' temper being triggered by this and responding with, "Why wait, Snivellus? Immobilize the tree by prodding that knot of wood and see for yourself what's down there. If you're not a coward, that is." Young men (not meaning to generalize of course) tend to take insults on their bravery quite seriously, and a young wizard as accomplished (and well-read in the Dark Arts) as Snape may have felt capable of handling a one-on-one with Lupin or anything else he might meet in the passageway in the roots of the willow. So, he enters without the slightest clue that a werewolf lurks beyond.
While Snape diligently picks his way through the tunnel, James arrives for the Marauders' 'night on the town'. Sirius laughingly tells him of little Snapey in the tunnel, to which James freaks out and goes into the tunnel to yank Snape back out. James' reasons (and the priority of different reasons) is open to 'individual interpretation' based on the various views we have about his character from the limited canon examples.
Now, Sirius may have underestimated ol' Snivelly enough to believe that he would just get the whipping of a lifetime from the willow. However, I feel that Sirius just considers the 'fun' of Snape's shock at discovering a werewolf without considering that Snape would be killed in the tunnel (or at the very least infected with lycanthropy) and that Lupin would be the one to bear this mark on his record (and conscience) for the rest of his life. While the intent may not have been murder (I think it may have been more of an ill-thought out dare) this is not a sufficient excuse/reason for the one nearly killed.
ETA: I remember the Davey Gudgeon incident as the kids having a game of trying to get as close to the willow without getting hit. I'll have to check on whether they actually knew about the 'knot'.
rambkowalczyk - Feb 26, 2008 10:22 am (#1818 of 1982)
Soul Search, I don't understand how you can say the whole "trick" was Snape's fault.
By your own admission you say Sirius knew Snape was listening but that Snape didn't know Sirius knew.
It sounds like you are saying that because Snape went down the tunnel he was wholly responsible for being attacked by a werewolf. Are you saying Sirius wasn't responsible for misleading Snape?
As someone previously pointed out, it could very well be unthinkable that a werewolf was attending Hogwarts. Snape could have thought that the tunnel under the whomping willow lead to someplace in Hogsmeade say the train station and Lupin went home or to St Mungo's.
Snape's motives weren't pure; his goal was to get the marauder's in trouble, so I can understand why some people feel Snape shares in some responsibility for what happened to him.
I disagree. Snape going after James and Sirius because he thinks they are up to no good reminds me of Harry's obsession with Draco in book 6. Harry had no proof that Draco was a Death Eater or that what he was going to do was seriously wrong. Harry was obsessed with Draco just as Snape was obsessed with James. One difference was that Draco made no attempt to trick Harry. If he did, and Harry got hurt would Harry be responsible for his own injuries because he was spying on Draco?
Julia H. - Feb 26, 2008 10:36 am (#1819 of 1982)
Soul Search, it is a possible scenario, though perhaps not the only possible one.
"Sirius didn't pick Snape up and bodily throw him down the tunnel." (Soul Search)
No, he did not. But he did intentionally lay a trap counting on Snape falling in and he knew how dangerous that trap was. He was also amused by the idea that someone (through his - Sirius's - trap) would suddenly find himself - unprepared - in a potentially deadly situation. (Not mentioning the unpleasant consequences for Lupin.) If he had not intended Snape to hear what he was saying, only had realized that someone who had apparently overheard them was approaching the tunnel, it would have been his moral duty to stop that person, to warn the person that it was dangerous. In your scenario, however, he intended Snape to overhear what he was saying and he intended Snape to try the experiment but never thought of stopping him. What I find inexcusable in the trick is that Sirius - whatever steps he actually took or not - was playing with someone's life and whatever was going to happen, he was ready to let it happen. This seems to be canon to me. He even found the idea "amusing". Even if we suppose he did not think the consequences over, he was still playing with someone's life and he never appears to have fully understood (any time later) why it was wrong.
ETA: Pesky's idea about the "dare" sounds plausible to me, both on account of what teenage boys are capable of doing and on account of Lupin's word that Sirius found it amusing to "tell" Snape ... and also because the question of bravery/cowardice seems to be an issue between Snape and Sirius later, when they are "grown-ups".
Ramb, very good points. I also thought that Harry's obsession with Draco seemed to be somewhat similar, he is trailing him, etc. (is he snooping?) and actually we see Draco's revenge when they are on the train and Harry finds himself immobilized and invisible and has to be rescued by Tonks. Is that OK for Draco?
Anna L. Black - Feb 26, 2008 11:59 am (#1820 of 1982)
Pesky, I find your scenarion very plausible. I think it fits with everything we know of the characters and their relationships with each other.
Oh, and regarding Davey Gudgeon - he didn't know about the knot, as far as we're told. The kids tried to get as close as possible to the tree, and touch its trunk, nothing more.
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PeskyPixie - Feb 26, 2008 12:20 pm (#1821 of 1982)
I'm glad my scenario sounds plausible to some, though I'm sure others will point out the flaws in my idea by the end of the day.
One point I failed to mention was that in the dark, Snape may or may not have seen what Madam Pomfrey actually does to get Lupin beyond the branches of the cranky willow. Either way, I don't feel it should have any effect on Sirius' responsibility over his own actions.
ETA: I hadn't considered the comparison of Harry trailing Draco. While the stakes are significantly raised for these two, Draco does use what he knows about Harry's weaknesses to catch him off his guard and lure him into a trap, doesn't he? Hmm, I hadn't thought of it like that before. While I can understand that Harry's 'snooping' may be annoying, I wouldn't blame Harry for getting immobilized, having his nose stomped on and being covered with the Invisibility Cloak in this condition.
Now that I think of it, all we need for the two scenarios to be completely analogous is a werewolf named Crabbe and Goyle rushing in to save the day!
haymoni - Feb 26, 2008 1:05 pm (#1822 of 1982)
I still don't know why Draco stopped at stomping on Harry's nose.
He could have AK'd him, or, at the very least, sent an owl to his father indicating where Voldy could find a disabled Harry Potter.
Odd.
The tunnel to the Shack went on for a while. It's not like you just hit the knot, walk into the Willow and end up in the Shack.
Snape would have walked for a bit before seeing Lupin. Maybe he thought he could handle a werewolf.
wynnleaf - Feb 26, 2008 2:05 pm (#1823 of 1982)
Soul Search, Excellent point about the length of time it would take to get back and forth to the castle, and that therefore James had to have been relatively close to the Whomping Willow, or at the very least, close behind Snape en route to the Willow.
Lupin's point that kids were often playing around trying to touch the Willow is notable in that we can see that even though it was perhaps "off limits" it wasn't something strictly enforced.
The idea that Sirius kind of "accidently on purpose" allowed the info about the Willow to leak in Snape's hearing is certainly possible, although we can't know for certain exactly how he conveyed the info to Snape. Lupin said he told him, which implies Sirius talking directly to Snape, but once again, we don't know the context, nor the extent of the trickery involved. Sirius may have included some sort of motivation for going into the tree beyond just following Lupin and seeing whatever there was to see.
We don't know that Snape actually knew Lupin was a werewolf. If he did know, why not just point out that information to all and sundry? It certainly would have stirred up an investigation which, if true, may still have resulted in Lupin's expulsion. In fact, a simple rumour campaign could have done the trick, once kids started to talk to parents. If Snape already knew Lupin was a werewolf, there was little reason to go down into the tunnel, unless Sirius gave Snape some further motivation, of which we know nothing.
I do think Snape's desire to figure out what the Marauders were up to is akin to Harry tailing Draco. We forgive Harry, even in COS when he was dead wrong about Draco, because we know Harry had the motive of protecting others. But suppose Snape's prime motive was simply to protect himself by getting rid of the bullies? Is that wrong? Especially when the staff were unable to control them? And if in fact Snape had discovered what the Marauders were up to each full moon, then he would have been protecting others, even if inadvertently.
The thing that I think is missed in the whole "Snape wanted to get the Marauders expelled" discussion is that the Marauders deserved to be expelled for running around flagerantly endangering the countryside every month, and that further they were trouble makers to the extent that the staff were completely unable to control them. Detentions obviously didn't work, and they appear to be completely unrepentent. The effort to make Lupin a prefect to curtail their activities in fact probably helped to increase them, because it gave them a convenient authority figure standing by giving tacit approval to what they did.
Julia H. - Feb 26, 2008 2:51 pm (#1824 of 1982)
"I still don't know why Draco stopped at stomping on Harry's nose.
He could have AK'd him, or, at the very least, sent an owl to his father indicating where Voldy could find a disabled Harry Potter." (Haymoni)
Draco is not ready to AK anyone, as readers find out at the end of HBP. His father is in Azkaban at the moment and he may not feel confident enough to send a message directly to LV (and he is right).
Good points, Wynnleaf.
Snape and Harry do seem to share certain characteristics.
Accio Sirius - Feb 26, 2008 3:24 pm (#1825 of 1982)
Quote: "He [Sirius] even found the idea "amusing". I believe Snape said Sirius found it amusing. I'll have to check, but I don't think Sirius ever used that word to describe the incident.
I don't think Snape is to blame for the shrieking shack incident. His motives are certainly self-serving for wanting to catch the Marauders, but he didn't actually deserve harm. Still, I would have to quibble with Julia's point that it's canon that Sirius was ready to let it happen. Given how few details we have, that's pretty much left to interpretation. If we are to look at canon, it could be argued that Sirius is often heard saying flip things such as "I'll see to Amelia Bones for you." So for him to say, "He deserved it," taken in context with all of his other remarks, that doesn't say definitively to me that he truly wanted Snape dead or really even harmed.
In fact, I would guess Sirius was quite happy that Snape was humiliated by having James save him. Otherwise Snape would have been a victim who would have garnered sympathy from many people, most probably Lily.
In keeping with the speculations, it's possible that Sirius never thought Snape would go all the way and if he did, Snape knew enough about the Dark Arts to deal with a werewolf. Just a thought.
Wynleaf, I like the Draco comparison as well.
Julia H. - Feb 26, 2008 4:14 pm (#1826 of 1982)
Accio Sirius, I did not say Sirius said he found it amusing, I said (a few posts earlier than the one you quoted from) that both Lupin and Snape used the word amusing (independent of each other), so I conclude that there may have been something in Sirius's behaviour that gave this impression to both of them, who were looking at the prank from very different angles.
"I would have to quibble with Julia's point that it's canon that Sirius was ready to let it happen."
"So for him to say, "He deserved it," taken in context with all of his other remarks, that doesn't say definitively to me that he truly wanted Snape dead or really even harmed."
I think these are two different things. On the one hand, I like to think that Sirius did not really want Snape dead, at least that he did not think beyond the point when Snape would get face to face with a werewolf and be awfully frightened. (I don't think it is an excuse but I prefer this to the possibility that Sirius was determined that Snape should die. This is, however, interpretation.) On the other hand, the way the story is told does not indicate that he - at any point - tried to stop Snape, that is we know about no point where Sirius would have thought "now, this is enough, I must call him back". Even if he - for any reason - did not think that Snape would be harmed, he was ready to test this assumption and he must have known that Snape would be in mortal danger if he did get near Lupin. This is what I meant when I said it seemed canon to me. Not the idea that Sirius wanted Snape dead but the idea that he was ready to test what would happen without interfering. In this sense, he was playing with Snape's life - even if he did not think he was.
"In fact, I would guess Sirius was quite happy that Snape was humiliated by having James save him."
I agree that this is quite likely. (I wonder if James may have seen it in this light, too. The story did get to Lily somehow.) But this underlines the "amusing" aspect of the prank for Sirius - and if Snape saw Sirius sneering right after he and James got out of the tunnel, it is not surprising that he thought Sirius had endangered his life just for fun.
Accio Sirius - Feb 26, 2008 6:03 pm (#1827 of 1982)
Thanks for clarifying Julia. That makes sense to me now. : )
I would imagine it would also be "interesting" to Sirius to also test Snape's determination--you know find out who they were up against and how far he was willing to go to get answers or get them in trouble.
Julia H. - Feb 27, 2008 5:26 am (#1828 of 1982)
Snape is certainly someone who is willing to go very far if properly motivated.
Soul Search - Feb 27, 2008 7:51 am (#1829 of 1982)
Good comments. I think we are learning more about the "prank" and how it plays out in the story.
I think we are supposed to make comparisons between Marauders/Snape and Harry/Draco; afterall, Dumbledore establishes the comparison when he is talking to Harry at the end of SS/PS. The big difference seems to be the Marauders were just out to have some fun, whereas Draco (HBP) was trying to effect murder of the Headmaster. I am not sure of the literary point, however. The whole Harry/Draco thing rather fizzles, even though they do meet in Deathly Hallows. I guess I expected more.
We can certainly vary the details of the "prank" and still stay within canon. I do favor, however, those scenarios where Snape "overhears" rather than is "told" to go down the tunnel. I just don't think Snape would have responded the same to being "told." If nothing else, Snape has to wonder why the Marauders are just standing around and not going down the tunnel themselves. I would certainly be suspicious.
"... the Marauders deserved to be expelled ..."
Good point, wynnleaf, and I agree. Actually, they all should have been punished. They were all out after curfew and up to no good. Even Lupin, who was not at fault at all for the prank, could have been expelled for encouraging students to risk the dangerous animagi transformation and terrorize the forest every month. Dumbledore is tolerant, but he couldn't have ignored what happened in the prank. So, I must conclude:
Dumbledore didn't know about the "prank!"
There is no reason for Dumbledore to have known about the prank. Let us continue the prank events.
James pulls Snape back from tunnel. Now everyone is back outside the tunnel, BUT A WEREWOLF IS COMING! The Marauders can't transform; Snape would see them. They all have to run like the dickens back to the castle and sneak in. With a werewolf nipping at their heels (this is before wolfsbane potion.)
How would Dumbledore find out about the prank? Did he catch them? No canon whatsoever. Did one group rat out the other? Neither would risk getting expelled just to harm the other; even Snape. No, they all got away with it.
Snape, greasy little sneak that he is, went to Dumbledore and threatened to tell the world Lupin was a werewolf, unless Dumbledore expells the Marauders. Dumbledore, with a smile, made Snape an offer he couldn't refuse, and Snape had to keep quiet.
Dumbledore did learn about the prank later, first from Snape (a long time after the event, but before SS,) and then, in PoA, from Sirius. But he didn't know about it at the time it happened.
mona amon - Feb 27, 2008 8:17 am (#1830 of 1982)
LOL, Soul Search, you've made the whole thing sound different and funny somehow!
James pulls Snape back from tunnel. Now everyone is back outside the tunnel, BUT A WEREWOLF IS COMING! The Marauders can't transform; Snape would see them. They all have to run like the dickens back to the castle and sneak in. With a werewolf nipping at their heels (this is before wolfsbane potion.)
Once they were outside, they weren't in any danger. If the werewolf had tried to come out of the tunnel, it (he?) would have got whomped by the willow.
Dumbledore, with a smile, made Snape an offer he couldn't refuse, and Snape had to keep quiet.
What offer was that?
Julia H. - Feb 27, 2008 8:38 am (#1831 of 1982)
Soul Search, I like your follow-up story in general except for one detail. I just can't imagine "greasy little Snape" or any other student trying to blackmail Dumbledore. Not even student Tom Riddle would ever have thought of that. And then Dumbledore "made Snape an offer he couldn't refuse". No canon but my problem is that I just can't imagine how this could happen. It is an excellent point that they all must have been running for their lives but I'd like another theory of how DD found it out. From Lily's account it seems a little later the marauders were boasting with at least a part of the story, so they can't have been afraid that they would be found out. Actually, if I imagine three or four teenagers running with a werewolf at their heels - who at the moment is not aware that he has a secret -, I must suppose they made some noise in the quiet of the night, so Hagrid or Filch or Madam Pomfrey or someone else may have wanted to check what was going on and the boys may well have run into an adult as soon as or even before they entered the building. (Was this the occasion when the marauders' map was confiscated?) Next morning they were in Dumbledore's office and probably got their punishment but they were not expelled, perhaps because DD did not want Lupin's secret to be revealed. In this sense, they "got away with it" and Snape had to promise to keep the secret. How much of the full story did Dumbledore find out that morning and how much later? Another question that is open to interpretation.
PeskyPixie - Feb 27, 2008 8:43 am (#1832 of 1982)
Snape, greasy little sneak that he is, went to Dumbledore and threatened to tell the world Lupin was a werewolf, unless Dumbledore expells the Marauders. Dumbledore, with a smile, made Snape an offer he couldn't refuse, and Snape had to keep quiet. -Soul Search
I realized Snape's role in relating the 'Prank' to Dumbledore while brushing my teeth last night and forgot about it by this morning. Thanks for bringing it up!
I thought of it as Snape tattling to Dumbledore about what had happened to him. Dumbledore would learn from Snape's story that Lupin's 'furry little' secret was out and that Sirius had behaved irresponsibly. However, I'm sure he would regard James' actions as heroic. The four boys would probably be called into Dumbledore's office together to settle the matter. How else would Lupin know that Snape was sworn to secrecy (about the werewolf) by Dumbledore?
Soul Search - Feb 27, 2008 8:49 am (#1833 of 1982)
"... but I'd like another theory of how DD found it out."
So would I. All we really know is:
Nobody got expelled.
Dumbledore forbade Snape to tell about Lupin.
I can't find any canon hints that will help us reconcile everything. Ideas ... anyone?
Anna L. Black - Feb 27, 2008 9:16 am (#1834 of 1982)
Soul Search, I think they did go to Dumbledore just after the prank: "[...] Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden to tell anybody by Dumbledore, but from that time on he knew what I was..." I can't imagine why Snape wouldn't tell DD about the prank if he comes to tell that he knows Lupin is a werewolf...
EDIT: I started writing this before the last 3 posts were there
Orion - Feb 27, 2008 9:22 am (#1835 of 1982)
Does Snape come to tell about Lupin? He can surely figure it out that DD knows that. Doesn't he really come about the Prank? I mean, someone just tried to kill him.
PeskyPixie - Feb 27, 2008 9:48 am (#1836 of 1982)
I feel that Snape goes to Dumbledore to tell him about the Prank and the fact that he now knows of Lupin's secret becomes apparent to Dumbledore as Snape relates the events of that night.
Lupin must have been brought in when Snape was sworn to secrecy as he knows of Snape's promise. However, do we know if Dumbledore knew that James and Sirius were also in on Lupin's secret? I guess he must have figured it out when Snape tells him that it was Sirius who revealed how to get beyond the willow.
Soul Search - Feb 27, 2008 10:35 am (#1837 of 1982)
Problem is, Dumbledore didn't know the Marauders were animagi until PoA. How do James, Sirius, and Pettigrew explain why they were hanging out, after curfew, around the Whomping Willow. Even Snape hasn't figured that out.
To admit to the Prank, Snape would have to explain why he went down into a dark tunnel, on a full moon night, and how he escaped the werewolf. The whole thing doesn't make Snape look very good.
Dumbledore does learn a bit about the Prank, since he tells Harry James saved Snape's life, but he may not have known exactly why Snape went down into the tunnel. Or may have received a distorted version from Snape. We do know Snape reminded Dumbledore ... "Sirius Black was capable of murder at sixteen." Is that the kind of thing Snape, later, told Dumbledore? That isn't a true representation, but James was dead, Sirius in Azkaban, and Pettigrew thought to be dead. Snape could misrepresent all he wanted.
Far as we can tell, Dumbledore doesn't get the Marauders' version until Sirius tells him all about becoming animagi, etc., in PoA.
It is interesting if Dumbledore didn't know the full "Prank" story until PoA. It means when he told Harry James saved Snape's life, he thought that to be the complete truth. (Separate from Snape being in love with Lily, etc.)
Julia H. - Feb 27, 2008 11:05 am (#1838 of 1982)
"Snape could misrepresent all he wanted." (Soul Search)
I don't get the impression that Snape is a liar in general, so I don't think he tells a lie in this case. He has his own view of the Prank but it seems to me what he says is what he believes to be true. I find his approach to the story quite understandable: HE was tricked, it was HIS life and the marauders were HIS enemies.
"Far as we can tell, Dumbledore doesn't get the Marauders' version until Sirius tells him all about becoming animagi, etc., in PoA.
It is interesting if Dumbledore didn't know the full "Prank" story until PoA. It means when he told Harry James saved Snape's life, he thought that to be the complete truth." (Soul Search)
Either this or that, in my opinion. He either knows the marauders' version as well or he may not really think that James acted heroically. Snape thinks James and Lupin were also involved in the trick, so if Dumbledore had Snape's version only, he would not have a very high opinion of James. I would also guess if Dumbledore finds out any details of the Prank right after the incident (and he does find out some details), he has to talk to all of the students involved - why would he listen to Snape alone? After all if Snape tells him that he went into the tunnel, he has no reason not to mention that Sirius was there too, and Dumbledore clearly knows about James's involvement before POA.
ETA: "No canon, and no reason to believe Snape distorted the facts. When have we ever seen him doing that?" (Mona)
That is what I was trying to say but Mona put it so much better.
mona amon - Feb 27, 2008 11:06 am (#1839 of 1982)
Or may have received a distorted version from Snape. We do know Snape reminded Dumbledore ... "Sirius Black was capable of murder at sixteen." Is that the kind of thing Snape, later, told Dumbledore? That isn't a true representation,...
It's true from Snape's point of view. He really believed that Sirius did not care about his life when he lured him down the tunnel. No canon, and no reason to believe Snape distorted the facts. When have we ever seen him doing that?
I agree with Pesky. It must have been Snape who complained about the prank to Dumbledore. He was also breaking curfew, but he was probably too worked up to care.
I believe he gave Dumbledore a true account of what happened, how Sirius had told him how he could follow Lupin etc. The animagi don't enter into it because Snape knew nothing about them. James and Snape would have got punished for being out after curfew. Sirius probably got a harsher punishment for playing atrick that could have resulted in death. And all were forbidden to reveal that Lupin was a werewolf.
Far as we can tell, Dumbledore doesn't get the Marauders' version until Sirius tells him all about becoming animagi, etc., in PoA.
In POA Sirius does not bring up the prank to Dumbledore. He only tells him about becoming animagi.
EDIT: cross posted with Julia!
Anna L. Black - Feb 27, 2008 11:11 am (#1840 of 1982)
I think that the whole thing wasn't necessarily after curfew hours. After all, Madam Pomfrey had to lean Lupin to the tunnel some time before the moon came out. If the prank happened just as the moon was coming out, it could be not that late yet.
And of course the whole story doesn't make Snape look too good - that's probably part of the reason he's so upset when Harry tries to confront him with the info on the prank in POA.
Also, I'm sure Dumbledore would want to hear the Marauders' version when Snape told him what happened. Snape says "Had their joke succeeded, [James] would have been expelled from Hogwarts." To me, that sounds as though at least some of the Marauders had to receive some sort of punishment (which was not expulsion).
EDIT: This thread moves to fast
Accio Sirius - Feb 27, 2008 12:18 pm (#1841 of 1982)
Man, I hope JKR addresses some of the details in a future chat or maybe in "the Scottish Book." Although Snape has no love for Sirius, I always got the impression the heap of the blame from Snape's point of view still went to James.
I do think Snape believes he's giving an accurate account and for the most part is, but he always taints things a bit with other emotions. I'm sure it was tricky for him to discuss, because he didn't want to sound like a victim, even if it exposed the Marauders as bullies.
PeskyPixie - Feb 27, 2008 12:23 pm (#1842 of 1982)
This thread moves to fast -Anna L. Black
Same Snapers, different thread.
wynnleaf - Feb 27, 2008 2:33 pm (#1843 of 1982)
Snape has been known to skew things a bit. At the end of HBP he told Harry that James always attacked him 4-1. But while in a tacit approval sort of way, Lupin helped in the Worst Memory scene, and Pettigrew could have offered help if need be, technically it was Sirius and James.
Somehow I can't picture Snape running to Dumbledore, in part because I don't have impression that he ran to Dumbledore, or any other staff, at other times. The Worst Memory scene is really quite awful, but I somehow doubt that Snape told. On the other hand, if he felt nothing much happened to even Sirius for the Prank, that may be why he perhaps didn't report the Worst Memory events.
I imagine that once James headed off to the tunnel to bring back Snape, Sirius probably followed. I can't imagine Sirius going back to Gryffindor knowing what James was doing. So when James pulled Snape out of the tunnel and away from the tree, my guess is that not only was Snape pretty scared (who wouldn't be?), but he was probably also furious. If Sirius was outside of the Willow waiting, still presumably amused, I wouldn't be surprised if some major altercation erupted right there, and since it was probably after curfew (we don't know it was after curfew), someone (Hagrid for instance?) could have discovered them in the midst of quite a scene of fury and the whole thing was ultimately brought to Dumbledore.
Of course, it could just as easily have been that Snape ran off to tell on them to Dumbledore, but Snape would have known from Madam Pomfrey accompanying Lupin that Lupin was a known werewolf (at least by the staff), and that his presence as such was still sanctioned at the school. If he was carrying tales to Dumbledore, it would have to be regarding the idea that the Marauders had tried to kill him, which he clearly did believe, not that Lupin was a werewolf.
I don't get the impression that Snape was in general a tale bearer. Neither Sirius nor Lupin ever imply that he was. In a way, it speaks even worse of Hogwarts if he did tell on the Marauders regularly, because then we'd have to assume that the staff couldn't stop bullying which they were aware of. I prefer to believe they didn't know about most of it, or the extent it reached.
Julia H. - Feb 27, 2008 3:52 pm (#1844 of 1982)
I agree, Wynnleaf. It does seem to be more likely to me as well that the boys were discovered somehow right after the Prank: teenagers (and rather wild ones) after such an incident, one is furious, the other maybe laughing, the third one doing who knows what and a werewolf is perhaps coming out of the tunnel (or howling inside), the tension is high, common sense is left way behind - they are bound to be noisy. As for Snape, we often see how he reacts to stress with fury but he also seems to be a loner type, who does not hurry to ask for help - as a child, he may not be used to getting much help from adults anyway. Pride may also be important: it is bad enough that Sirius, as he believes, tried to kill him, but then it also resulted in the additional humiliation of James saving his life - would then he really go and complain about it all? As Accio Sirius says: "... he didn't want to sound like a victim".
(Teenage-boy psychology again: I know of a former teenager who was overcome by several rival boys during a fight and was almost strangled while lying on the ground by the sheer weight of the others on him when a teacher found them and put an end to the fight. As he got to his feet with a green face, the first thing he said was "we were just playing" - when they were clearly not.)
If the boys were discovered by an adult somewhere near the tunnel (and near a werewolf), they could soon find themselves in front of Dumbledore and they could all tell their respective versions of the story.
PeskyPixie - Feb 27, 2008 5:04 pm (#1845 of 1982)
If he was carrying tales to Dumbledore, it would have to be regarding the idea that the Marauders had tried to kill him, which he clearly did believe, not that Lupin was a werewolf. -wynnleaf
I'm not sure whether you read my post or not, however, I mentioned that if Snape had indeed been the 'tale-bearer', it would have about the attempt to 'murder' him. However, the events of that evening/night center around Lupin's monthly hiding place and even if Snape's knowledge of the werewolf wasn't brought up as part of his story, Dumbledore would be aware that someone might be in on the secret and that he needed to have a talk with all of the boys involved before the situation got out of hand and Lupin paid the price for it.
If Sirius was outside of the Willow waiting, still presumably amused, I wouldn't be surprised if some major altercation erupted right there, and since it was probably after curfew (we don't know it was after curfew), someone (Hagrid for instance?) could have discovered them in the midst of quite a scene of fury and the whole thing was ultimately brought to Dumbledore. -wynnleaf
This is certainly a possible scenario. If I may adapt it to form yet another: "If Sirius was outside of the Willow waiting, still presumably amused, I wouldn't be surprised if some major altercation erupted right there," and maybe Snape threatened them that he would leak Lupin's story thereby having him removed from Hogwarts (i.e. Lupin's condition is hidden because no one wants a werewolf among their children). I can see Sirius and James throwing all caution to the winds about their own curfew breaking to take Snape forcefully to Dumbledore in order to protect their friend.
You see, I don't believe Snape saw himself as a true 'victim' here. The Prank was just proof to him of how the Marauders could only overcome him '4 on 1'. But now I'm back on Snape ... and this is Sirius' thread.
Julia H. - Feb 28, 2008 4:36 am (#1846 of 1982)
Pesky's scenario is another quite possible one. In this case each boy had a strong motivation to tell the story, the marauders stressing Snape's intention to get Lupin into trouble and James saving Snape's life but "forgetting" to mention animagia and their monthly "excursions", while Snape emphasizing the role Sirius had played in the prank. Dumbledore was concerned about Lupin, so he, so to speak, may have sided with the marauders (who were Gryffindors anyway).
PeskyPixie - Mar 3, 2008 11:07 pm (#1847 of 1982)
I think we agree that Sirius is naturally impulsive and this trait, combined with youth and popularity, lead him to make choices as a teen which may have had deadly results. Then, at the relatively young age of twenty-one he is carted off to Azkaban to spend twelve years in a prison cell. Thus, he does not have a chance to mature and when he escapes from prison at age 33, he is still emotionally in his teens and also carries the emotional/psychological scars of his time in Azkaban. This is why I don't take his, Snape 'deserved it' comment in PoA too seriously.
However, does he ever mature, or start to mature before his untimely end?
wynnleaf - Mar 4, 2008 8:03 am (#1848 of 1982)
Thus, he does not have a chance to mature and when he escapes from prison at age 33, he is still emotionally in his teens and also carries the emotional/psychological scars of his time in Azkaban. This is why I don't take his, Snape 'deserved it' comment in PoA too seriously. (Pesky)
I agree that we don't judge 33 year old Sirius by 33 year old standards. But I think we can judge that remark based on 21 year old standards. I interpret that remark to show that by the time Sirius went to prison at age 21, he still didn't have any real regrets about Snape almost getting killed. Well, perhaps he regretted getting Lupin into that situation - we don't know as he doesn't address that. But even 5 or 6 years after the Prank, he apparently still thought Snape deserved it, and he came out of Azkaban with those same opinions intact.
I don't think we get any indication that he matured between age 15 and age 21. Why should he mature in the 3 years after his escape from Azkaban? By that time he's been highly traumatized, on the run, living rough, and then living in a kind of incarceration in another type of "prison." I don't see that he has much opportunity to mature.
Julia H. - Mar 4, 2008 8:28 am (#1849 of 1982)
So would he be emotionally still 15 in OOTP? That is the same age as Harry's. Actually, it would be hard to decide if any of them is more mature than the other. On occasion Harry seems to behave in a more mature way but not always, I guess.
Accio Sirius - Mar 4, 2008 5:03 pm (#1850 of 1982)
Well, he was willing to be a father to Harry, have him live with him, and that takes a good deal of maturity. Some grown men never reach that point. I don't think it was like he was across the board emotionally stunted. There were areas where he was obviously behind, but his faithfulness/loyalties seem to have grown during those years. I don't think he would have been a traditional father, and while he was willing to risk his own safety and be reckless, he didn't seem to be as willing to let Harry do the same. I liked that he wanted to share information with Harry. As a parent, I often try to talk more openly about some issues in age appropriate ways. But look at how not sharing information hurt Harry throughout the books.
Julia H. - Mar 5, 2008 12:09 am (#1851 of 1982)
Accio Sirius, you are absolutely right. Trying to be a father to Harry was his most mature decision perhaps. I also agree that he was right when he wanted to share information with Harry and it would have been much better to tell Harry things that concerned him in a simple way rather than endangering his safety by keeping information from him, making him nervous because of the secrets around him and letting him learn about them in a much harder way. I cannot see it so much that his faithfulness/loyalty may have grown over these years: Sirius appears to have been quite a faithful/loyal person earlier. However, he was not only a "father" to Harry but also a "brother". Harry saw the need to comfort him and to "protect" him and that is why Harry did not want to use the mirror. Harry also stepped in when Sirius and Snape almost started to fight. At this moment Harry seemed to be the most mature of the three. Sirius wanted to find James in Harry a bit too much (and he even seemed to be disappointed when Harry was not James enough) and could not get over some of his teenager attitudes. So I think there were moments when Harry seemed to be more mature than Sirius (and he was only 15) but at other times, of course, Sirius did behave as a more experienced and protective adult or at least an older brother to Harry.
Orion - Mar 5, 2008 2:31 am (#1852 of 1982)
Yes, the scene in OOP when Harry jumps between Snape and Sirius to prevent them from hexing each other into a pulp! He seems to jump between two irate dogs, not two grown men. Sirius never seems very grown up to me. He is looking for a best mate, or for a substitute for his best mate James. That was so good in the OOP movie: "Nice one, James!" (Script better than book, not often the case.)
But I agree with Accio Sirius and Julia, if Sirius had stood up to Molly in OOP and told Harry everything straight away - a person with more direct confrontations with LV than any other adult in the Order - a lot of tragic consequences wouldn't have happened.
Anna L. Black - Mar 5, 2008 3:37 am (#1853 of 1982)
Sirius wanted to find James in Harry a bit too much - Julia
Interestingly, that's one thing that Sirius and Snape have in common. They both think that Harry is much more like James than he really is.
Julia H. - Mar 5, 2008 4:24 am (#1854 of 1982)
"Interestingly, that's one thing that Sirius and Snape have in common. They both think that Harry is much more like James than he really is." (Anna)
Yes, and it influences their feelings towards Harry. Another thing they have in common is their intention to protect Harry and their willingness to risk their lives for Harry. It is very sad that they cannot get over their old enmity.
Orion mentioned the movies. ( "Nice one, James!" is good, I agree.) That Snape and Sirius have this common goal is shown very beautifully at the end of the POA-movie (one of the few changes that I like) when Snape is standing between the children and the werewolf, while Sirius turns into a dog to fight the werewolf. This scene makes it very clear how similar their goals and their decisions can be.
Still another thing they share is their willingness to give Harry information in OOTP. Sirius says that Harry has a right to know what concerns him and tells him as much as the other adults (Molly in the first place) let him tell, then Snape tells him perhaps even more at the beginning of the occlumency lessons.
wynnleaf - Mar 5, 2008 9:17 am (#1855 of 1982)
Good posts from all.
I didn't mean to imply that Sirius was just like a 15 year old and hadn't matured at all. I just meant that he seems to have retained a good deal of immaturity after we last see him in the Worst Memory scene, up through the Potter's deaths, because we know he continued to think Snape deserved the Prank, kept running around with Lupin at full moons throughout their school time, and if they did back off with their hexing in the hallways, it seems to have been more James' idea because he wanted Lily to date him. Further, Sirius' idea about using Pettigrew was extremely ill-judged. Even without hindsight of knowing Peter was a traitor, we still see him in the Worst Memory scene and he just seems like such a slimy person, practically panting over watching someone else torment a person. Besides, Sirius' idea about Peter was the kind of convoluted logic of adolescence -- they weakest person is the safest because no one would suspect them? Come on!
Anyway, I'm sure Sirius did mature in some ways. It's just that he really didn't have any sort of "normal" life ever, and especially not after going to Azkaban.
By the way, Sirius did, in GOF or OOTP (can't recall which), try to get Harry to sneak out and meet him. When Harry wouldn't do it, Sirius was disappointed saying that Harry wasn't like James, who would have been up for such adventures. That's an instance of Sirius being immature in his comparison with James, but also immature in asking Harry to take such a risk.
Accio Sirius - Apr 16, 2008 6:28 pm (#1856 of 1982)
I read in some sort of post DH interview by JKR that Sirius, James and Lily were full time fighters for the Order and that James supported Sirius and Lily.
I wonder if that was one of her "gaffs" that she tends to have (like Ron being an Auror and working in the joke shop) because the implication in the books is that Sirius had money (maybe not much) from his Uncle. Her quote just struck me as slightly odd. Anybody?
She also said she had worked out Sirius' childhood in detail. I certainly hope that is included in the Scottish book, especially in regards to his relationship with Regulus. I wonder if Regulus and Snape had any kind of relationship or if Snape disliked Regulus just because he was Sirius' brother.
wynnleaf - Apr 16, 2008 7:52 pm (#1857 of 1982)
Sirius, if I recall correctly, inherited money from his family. But we don't know exactly when that occurred. At the time James and Lily were alive, Sirius may not have inherited anything and, being estranged from his family, had nothing to live on.
PeskyPixie - Apr 17, 2008 7:36 am (#1858 of 1982)
I thought that Sirius and James supported Remus.
PeskyPixie - Aug 20, 2009 9:34 am (#1859 of 1982)
In DH we learn that Regulus kept quiet about setting out to destroy the locket horcrux. Hermione comes to the conclusion that Regulus kept quiet about his change of allegiance because he did not wish to endanger his loved ones.
However, in OotP Sirius states that his idiot little brother was killed when he tried to leave the Death Eaters. Does this make sense to anyone?
Orion - Aug 20, 2009 12:07 pm (#1860 of 1982)
I don't have my book, but it must have looked like that from the outside. DE gets killed by DEs, ergo, he must have tried to leave them. But of course the book might be more detailed than that.
Hieronymus Graubart - Aug 21, 2009 8:00 am (#1861 of 1982)
But Regulus was not killed by DEs, it seems that he died in the cave. Looking from outside, he had just disappeared. Sirius could not even be sure that his brother was dead.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 21, 2009 1:16 pm (#1862 of 1982)
We are told Kreacher took orders from Regulus but wouldn't he have to spill his guts to Mrs Black if she asked Kreacher if he knew anything about her missing son? I'm assuming this didn't happen but I've wondered about it.
Julia H. - Aug 21, 2009 3:21 pm (#1863 of 1982)
If Kreacher had told Mrs Black the truth, it would have turned out that Regulus had not been killed by the DE's. But I'm not sure Mrs Black could be Sirius's source, as they were not on speaking terms. I agree that it must have simply seemed that he had disappeared - and Voldemort must have also wondered where Regulus was.
I guess Sirius may have known that Regulus had not been killed or imprisoned by the aurors (or Order members). Still, how did he find out that Regulus was missing at all? One possibility I can think about is that some information about Regulus may have come from a "DE source", from Snape, for example, or from a DE arrested after Voldemort's downfall. They could only say that Regulus had disappeared, but they may have noticed his changed behaviour before his disappearance. From this, Sirius may have concluded that Regulus had "got cold feet" (and that was why his behaviour had changed), perhaps tried to flee (when he had disappeared), and since nobody heard about him any more, it was likely that the DE's had found him and killed him - without the informant's knowledge though.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 23, 2009 6:30 pm (#1864 of 1982)
I agree that Mrs Black didn't know. But isn't it odd that she never asked Kreacher where the "fortunate son" had gone?
(maybe this is for the "odd" thread...)
Julia H. - Aug 24, 2009 1:54 am (#1865 of 1982)
Maybe she did not know that Kreacher knew. It is an interesting question what Kreacher would have done if he had received conflicting orders from his master and his mistress.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 26, 2009 10:38 am (#1866 of 1982)
We will have to assume she did not know in order for the plot to work... but I must say I had to suspend disbelief for various reasons.
Regarding what would happen if a House-Elf gets conflicting orders, I would imagine seniority reigns. For instance, Draco would not "trump" Lucius if they gave conflicting orders to Dobby, IMO.
PeskyPixie - Aug 26, 2009 11:41 am (#1867 of 1982)
It's just odd that Sirius would know that the stupid idiot was killed by Death Eaters (he says this like it's a well-known piece of gossip), but then we learn that in reality the kid just disappeared without even openly giving the impression of trying to leave the Dark Lord.
Unless, it was just that. A piece of gossip which circulated after Regulus disappeared?
Madam Pince - Aug 26, 2009 12:49 pm (#1868 of 1982)
Well, wasn't that during the time when a lot of people were being killed by Death Eaters? It stands to reason that if someone just mysteriously disappeared, the odds were pretty good as to whodunnit.
Solitaire - Aug 26, 2009 4:36 pm (#1869 of 1982)
Kreacher seems to be to have been more loyal to Master Regulus. I think he truly loved him in much the same way that Dobby loved Harry ... maybe more.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 26, 2009 6:29 pm (#1870 of 1982)
But the question is, Soli, whether a House-Elf's feelings have anything to do with their loyalty to a family member... I feel that parent / Head of House rules. ? It's a moot point but curious, very curious!
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2009 1:44 am (#1871 of 1982)
It is possible that Kreacher was more loyal to Regulus because he loved him more, and, to fulfill his dying wish, Kreacher may have been willing to punish himself again and again. (It seems house-elves can be disloyal or disobedient, but they must punish themselves.)
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 27, 2009 8:55 am (#1872 of 1982)
That's true, Julia. Perhaps Kreacher lied to Mrs Black then ironed his hands every hour on the hour for a few years. Poor little guy.
Solitaire - Aug 28, 2009 7:52 pm (#1873 of 1982)
Winky's loyalties were obviously torn between Mr. Crouch and Barty, Jr. Of course, once she had been given clothes, she seemed to be loyal to Barty only.
I'm glad my scenario sounds plausible to some, though I'm sure others will point out the flaws in my idea by the end of the day.
One point I failed to mention was that in the dark, Snape may or may not have seen what Madam Pomfrey actually does to get Lupin beyond the branches of the cranky willow. Either way, I don't feel it should have any effect on Sirius' responsibility over his own actions.
ETA: I hadn't considered the comparison of Harry trailing Draco. While the stakes are significantly raised for these two, Draco does use what he knows about Harry's weaknesses to catch him off his guard and lure him into a trap, doesn't he? Hmm, I hadn't thought of it like that before. While I can understand that Harry's 'snooping' may be annoying, I wouldn't blame Harry for getting immobilized, having his nose stomped on and being covered with the Invisibility Cloak in this condition.
Now that I think of it, all we need for the two scenarios to be completely analogous is a werewolf named Crabbe and Goyle rushing in to save the day!
haymoni - Feb 26, 2008 1:05 pm (#1822 of 1982)
I still don't know why Draco stopped at stomping on Harry's nose.
He could have AK'd him, or, at the very least, sent an owl to his father indicating where Voldy could find a disabled Harry Potter.
Odd.
The tunnel to the Shack went on for a while. It's not like you just hit the knot, walk into the Willow and end up in the Shack.
Snape would have walked for a bit before seeing Lupin. Maybe he thought he could handle a werewolf.
wynnleaf - Feb 26, 2008 2:05 pm (#1823 of 1982)
Soul Search, Excellent point about the length of time it would take to get back and forth to the castle, and that therefore James had to have been relatively close to the Whomping Willow, or at the very least, close behind Snape en route to the Willow.
Lupin's point that kids were often playing around trying to touch the Willow is notable in that we can see that even though it was perhaps "off limits" it wasn't something strictly enforced.
The idea that Sirius kind of "accidently on purpose" allowed the info about the Willow to leak in Snape's hearing is certainly possible, although we can't know for certain exactly how he conveyed the info to Snape. Lupin said he told him, which implies Sirius talking directly to Snape, but once again, we don't know the context, nor the extent of the trickery involved. Sirius may have included some sort of motivation for going into the tree beyond just following Lupin and seeing whatever there was to see.
We don't know that Snape actually knew Lupin was a werewolf. If he did know, why not just point out that information to all and sundry? It certainly would have stirred up an investigation which, if true, may still have resulted in Lupin's expulsion. In fact, a simple rumour campaign could have done the trick, once kids started to talk to parents. If Snape already knew Lupin was a werewolf, there was little reason to go down into the tunnel, unless Sirius gave Snape some further motivation, of which we know nothing.
I do think Snape's desire to figure out what the Marauders were up to is akin to Harry tailing Draco. We forgive Harry, even in COS when he was dead wrong about Draco, because we know Harry had the motive of protecting others. But suppose Snape's prime motive was simply to protect himself by getting rid of the bullies? Is that wrong? Especially when the staff were unable to control them? And if in fact Snape had discovered what the Marauders were up to each full moon, then he would have been protecting others, even if inadvertently.
The thing that I think is missed in the whole "Snape wanted to get the Marauders expelled" discussion is that the Marauders deserved to be expelled for running around flagerantly endangering the countryside every month, and that further they were trouble makers to the extent that the staff were completely unable to control them. Detentions obviously didn't work, and they appear to be completely unrepentent. The effort to make Lupin a prefect to curtail their activities in fact probably helped to increase them, because it gave them a convenient authority figure standing by giving tacit approval to what they did.
Julia H. - Feb 26, 2008 2:51 pm (#1824 of 1982)
"I still don't know why Draco stopped at stomping on Harry's nose.
He could have AK'd him, or, at the very least, sent an owl to his father indicating where Voldy could find a disabled Harry Potter." (Haymoni)
Draco is not ready to AK anyone, as readers find out at the end of HBP. His father is in Azkaban at the moment and he may not feel confident enough to send a message directly to LV (and he is right).
Good points, Wynnleaf.
Snape and Harry do seem to share certain characteristics.
Accio Sirius - Feb 26, 2008 3:24 pm (#1825 of 1982)
Quote: "He [Sirius] even found the idea "amusing". I believe Snape said Sirius found it amusing. I'll have to check, but I don't think Sirius ever used that word to describe the incident.
I don't think Snape is to blame for the shrieking shack incident. His motives are certainly self-serving for wanting to catch the Marauders, but he didn't actually deserve harm. Still, I would have to quibble with Julia's point that it's canon that Sirius was ready to let it happen. Given how few details we have, that's pretty much left to interpretation. If we are to look at canon, it could be argued that Sirius is often heard saying flip things such as "I'll see to Amelia Bones for you." So for him to say, "He deserved it," taken in context with all of his other remarks, that doesn't say definitively to me that he truly wanted Snape dead or really even harmed.
In fact, I would guess Sirius was quite happy that Snape was humiliated by having James save him. Otherwise Snape would have been a victim who would have garnered sympathy from many people, most probably Lily.
In keeping with the speculations, it's possible that Sirius never thought Snape would go all the way and if he did, Snape knew enough about the Dark Arts to deal with a werewolf. Just a thought.
Wynleaf, I like the Draco comparison as well.
Julia H. - Feb 26, 2008 4:14 pm (#1826 of 1982)
Accio Sirius, I did not say Sirius said he found it amusing, I said (a few posts earlier than the one you quoted from) that both Lupin and Snape used the word amusing (independent of each other), so I conclude that there may have been something in Sirius's behaviour that gave this impression to both of them, who were looking at the prank from very different angles.
"I would have to quibble with Julia's point that it's canon that Sirius was ready to let it happen."
"So for him to say, "He deserved it," taken in context with all of his other remarks, that doesn't say definitively to me that he truly wanted Snape dead or really even harmed."
I think these are two different things. On the one hand, I like to think that Sirius did not really want Snape dead, at least that he did not think beyond the point when Snape would get face to face with a werewolf and be awfully frightened. (I don't think it is an excuse but I prefer this to the possibility that Sirius was determined that Snape should die. This is, however, interpretation.) On the other hand, the way the story is told does not indicate that he - at any point - tried to stop Snape, that is we know about no point where Sirius would have thought "now, this is enough, I must call him back". Even if he - for any reason - did not think that Snape would be harmed, he was ready to test this assumption and he must have known that Snape would be in mortal danger if he did get near Lupin. This is what I meant when I said it seemed canon to me. Not the idea that Sirius wanted Snape dead but the idea that he was ready to test what would happen without interfering. In this sense, he was playing with Snape's life - even if he did not think he was.
"In fact, I would guess Sirius was quite happy that Snape was humiliated by having James save him."
I agree that this is quite likely. (I wonder if James may have seen it in this light, too. The story did get to Lily somehow.) But this underlines the "amusing" aspect of the prank for Sirius - and if Snape saw Sirius sneering right after he and James got out of the tunnel, it is not surprising that he thought Sirius had endangered his life just for fun.
Accio Sirius - Feb 26, 2008 6:03 pm (#1827 of 1982)
Thanks for clarifying Julia. That makes sense to me now. : )
I would imagine it would also be "interesting" to Sirius to also test Snape's determination--you know find out who they were up against and how far he was willing to go to get answers or get them in trouble.
Julia H. - Feb 27, 2008 5:26 am (#1828 of 1982)
Snape is certainly someone who is willing to go very far if properly motivated.
Soul Search - Feb 27, 2008 7:51 am (#1829 of 1982)
Good comments. I think we are learning more about the "prank" and how it plays out in the story.
I think we are supposed to make comparisons between Marauders/Snape and Harry/Draco; afterall, Dumbledore establishes the comparison when he is talking to Harry at the end of SS/PS. The big difference seems to be the Marauders were just out to have some fun, whereas Draco (HBP) was trying to effect murder of the Headmaster. I am not sure of the literary point, however. The whole Harry/Draco thing rather fizzles, even though they do meet in Deathly Hallows. I guess I expected more.
We can certainly vary the details of the "prank" and still stay within canon. I do favor, however, those scenarios where Snape "overhears" rather than is "told" to go down the tunnel. I just don't think Snape would have responded the same to being "told." If nothing else, Snape has to wonder why the Marauders are just standing around and not going down the tunnel themselves. I would certainly be suspicious.
"... the Marauders deserved to be expelled ..."
Good point, wynnleaf, and I agree. Actually, they all should have been punished. They were all out after curfew and up to no good. Even Lupin, who was not at fault at all for the prank, could have been expelled for encouraging students to risk the dangerous animagi transformation and terrorize the forest every month. Dumbledore is tolerant, but he couldn't have ignored what happened in the prank. So, I must conclude:
Dumbledore didn't know about the "prank!"
There is no reason for Dumbledore to have known about the prank. Let us continue the prank events.
James pulls Snape back from tunnel. Now everyone is back outside the tunnel, BUT A WEREWOLF IS COMING! The Marauders can't transform; Snape would see them. They all have to run like the dickens back to the castle and sneak in. With a werewolf nipping at their heels (this is before wolfsbane potion.)
How would Dumbledore find out about the prank? Did he catch them? No canon whatsoever. Did one group rat out the other? Neither would risk getting expelled just to harm the other; even Snape. No, they all got away with it.
Snape, greasy little sneak that he is, went to Dumbledore and threatened to tell the world Lupin was a werewolf, unless Dumbledore expells the Marauders. Dumbledore, with a smile, made Snape an offer he couldn't refuse, and Snape had to keep quiet.
Dumbledore did learn about the prank later, first from Snape (a long time after the event, but before SS,) and then, in PoA, from Sirius. But he didn't know about it at the time it happened.
mona amon - Feb 27, 2008 8:17 am (#1830 of 1982)
LOL, Soul Search, you've made the whole thing sound different and funny somehow!
James pulls Snape back from tunnel. Now everyone is back outside the tunnel, BUT A WEREWOLF IS COMING! The Marauders can't transform; Snape would see them. They all have to run like the dickens back to the castle and sneak in. With a werewolf nipping at their heels (this is before wolfsbane potion.)
Once they were outside, they weren't in any danger. If the werewolf had tried to come out of the tunnel, it (he?) would have got whomped by the willow.
Dumbledore, with a smile, made Snape an offer he couldn't refuse, and Snape had to keep quiet.
What offer was that?
Julia H. - Feb 27, 2008 8:38 am (#1831 of 1982)
Soul Search, I like your follow-up story in general except for one detail. I just can't imagine "greasy little Snape" or any other student trying to blackmail Dumbledore. Not even student Tom Riddle would ever have thought of that. And then Dumbledore "made Snape an offer he couldn't refuse". No canon but my problem is that I just can't imagine how this could happen. It is an excellent point that they all must have been running for their lives but I'd like another theory of how DD found it out. From Lily's account it seems a little later the marauders were boasting with at least a part of the story, so they can't have been afraid that they would be found out. Actually, if I imagine three or four teenagers running with a werewolf at their heels - who at the moment is not aware that he has a secret -, I must suppose they made some noise in the quiet of the night, so Hagrid or Filch or Madam Pomfrey or someone else may have wanted to check what was going on and the boys may well have run into an adult as soon as or even before they entered the building. (Was this the occasion when the marauders' map was confiscated?) Next morning they were in Dumbledore's office and probably got their punishment but they were not expelled, perhaps because DD did not want Lupin's secret to be revealed. In this sense, they "got away with it" and Snape had to promise to keep the secret. How much of the full story did Dumbledore find out that morning and how much later? Another question that is open to interpretation.
PeskyPixie - Feb 27, 2008 8:43 am (#1832 of 1982)
Snape, greasy little sneak that he is, went to Dumbledore and threatened to tell the world Lupin was a werewolf, unless Dumbledore expells the Marauders. Dumbledore, with a smile, made Snape an offer he couldn't refuse, and Snape had to keep quiet. -Soul Search
I realized Snape's role in relating the 'Prank' to Dumbledore while brushing my teeth last night and forgot about it by this morning. Thanks for bringing it up!
I thought of it as Snape tattling to Dumbledore about what had happened to him. Dumbledore would learn from Snape's story that Lupin's 'furry little' secret was out and that Sirius had behaved irresponsibly. However, I'm sure he would regard James' actions as heroic. The four boys would probably be called into Dumbledore's office together to settle the matter. How else would Lupin know that Snape was sworn to secrecy (about the werewolf) by Dumbledore?
Soul Search - Feb 27, 2008 8:49 am (#1833 of 1982)
"... but I'd like another theory of how DD found it out."
So would I. All we really know is:
Nobody got expelled.
Dumbledore forbade Snape to tell about Lupin.
I can't find any canon hints that will help us reconcile everything. Ideas ... anyone?
Anna L. Black - Feb 27, 2008 9:16 am (#1834 of 1982)
Soul Search, I think they did go to Dumbledore just after the prank: "[...] Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden to tell anybody by Dumbledore, but from that time on he knew what I was..." I can't imagine why Snape wouldn't tell DD about the prank if he comes to tell that he knows Lupin is a werewolf...
EDIT: I started writing this before the last 3 posts were there
Orion - Feb 27, 2008 9:22 am (#1835 of 1982)
Does Snape come to tell about Lupin? He can surely figure it out that DD knows that. Doesn't he really come about the Prank? I mean, someone just tried to kill him.
PeskyPixie - Feb 27, 2008 9:48 am (#1836 of 1982)
I feel that Snape goes to Dumbledore to tell him about the Prank and the fact that he now knows of Lupin's secret becomes apparent to Dumbledore as Snape relates the events of that night.
Lupin must have been brought in when Snape was sworn to secrecy as he knows of Snape's promise. However, do we know if Dumbledore knew that James and Sirius were also in on Lupin's secret? I guess he must have figured it out when Snape tells him that it was Sirius who revealed how to get beyond the willow.
Soul Search - Feb 27, 2008 10:35 am (#1837 of 1982)
Problem is, Dumbledore didn't know the Marauders were animagi until PoA. How do James, Sirius, and Pettigrew explain why they were hanging out, after curfew, around the Whomping Willow. Even Snape hasn't figured that out.
To admit to the Prank, Snape would have to explain why he went down into a dark tunnel, on a full moon night, and how he escaped the werewolf. The whole thing doesn't make Snape look very good.
Dumbledore does learn a bit about the Prank, since he tells Harry James saved Snape's life, but he may not have known exactly why Snape went down into the tunnel. Or may have received a distorted version from Snape. We do know Snape reminded Dumbledore ... "Sirius Black was capable of murder at sixteen." Is that the kind of thing Snape, later, told Dumbledore? That isn't a true representation, but James was dead, Sirius in Azkaban, and Pettigrew thought to be dead. Snape could misrepresent all he wanted.
Far as we can tell, Dumbledore doesn't get the Marauders' version until Sirius tells him all about becoming animagi, etc., in PoA.
It is interesting if Dumbledore didn't know the full "Prank" story until PoA. It means when he told Harry James saved Snape's life, he thought that to be the complete truth. (Separate from Snape being in love with Lily, etc.)
Julia H. - Feb 27, 2008 11:05 am (#1838 of 1982)
"Snape could misrepresent all he wanted." (Soul Search)
I don't get the impression that Snape is a liar in general, so I don't think he tells a lie in this case. He has his own view of the Prank but it seems to me what he says is what he believes to be true. I find his approach to the story quite understandable: HE was tricked, it was HIS life and the marauders were HIS enemies.
"Far as we can tell, Dumbledore doesn't get the Marauders' version until Sirius tells him all about becoming animagi, etc., in PoA.
It is interesting if Dumbledore didn't know the full "Prank" story until PoA. It means when he told Harry James saved Snape's life, he thought that to be the complete truth." (Soul Search)
Either this or that, in my opinion. He either knows the marauders' version as well or he may not really think that James acted heroically. Snape thinks James and Lupin were also involved in the trick, so if Dumbledore had Snape's version only, he would not have a very high opinion of James. I would also guess if Dumbledore finds out any details of the Prank right after the incident (and he does find out some details), he has to talk to all of the students involved - why would he listen to Snape alone? After all if Snape tells him that he went into the tunnel, he has no reason not to mention that Sirius was there too, and Dumbledore clearly knows about James's involvement before POA.
ETA: "No canon, and no reason to believe Snape distorted the facts. When have we ever seen him doing that?" (Mona)
That is what I was trying to say but Mona put it so much better.
mona amon - Feb 27, 2008 11:06 am (#1839 of 1982)
Or may have received a distorted version from Snape. We do know Snape reminded Dumbledore ... "Sirius Black was capable of murder at sixteen." Is that the kind of thing Snape, later, told Dumbledore? That isn't a true representation,...
It's true from Snape's point of view. He really believed that Sirius did not care about his life when he lured him down the tunnel. No canon, and no reason to believe Snape distorted the facts. When have we ever seen him doing that?
I agree with Pesky. It must have been Snape who complained about the prank to Dumbledore. He was also breaking curfew, but he was probably too worked up to care.
I believe he gave Dumbledore a true account of what happened, how Sirius had told him how he could follow Lupin etc. The animagi don't enter into it because Snape knew nothing about them. James and Snape would have got punished for being out after curfew. Sirius probably got a harsher punishment for playing atrick that could have resulted in death. And all were forbidden to reveal that Lupin was a werewolf.
Far as we can tell, Dumbledore doesn't get the Marauders' version until Sirius tells him all about becoming animagi, etc., in PoA.
In POA Sirius does not bring up the prank to Dumbledore. He only tells him about becoming animagi.
EDIT: cross posted with Julia!
Anna L. Black - Feb 27, 2008 11:11 am (#1840 of 1982)
I think that the whole thing wasn't necessarily after curfew hours. After all, Madam Pomfrey had to lean Lupin to the tunnel some time before the moon came out. If the prank happened just as the moon was coming out, it could be not that late yet.
And of course the whole story doesn't make Snape look too good - that's probably part of the reason he's so upset when Harry tries to confront him with the info on the prank in POA.
Also, I'm sure Dumbledore would want to hear the Marauders' version when Snape told him what happened. Snape says "Had their joke succeeded, [James] would have been expelled from Hogwarts." To me, that sounds as though at least some of the Marauders had to receive some sort of punishment (which was not expulsion).
EDIT: This thread moves to fast
Accio Sirius - Feb 27, 2008 12:18 pm (#1841 of 1982)
Man, I hope JKR addresses some of the details in a future chat or maybe in "the Scottish Book." Although Snape has no love for Sirius, I always got the impression the heap of the blame from Snape's point of view still went to James.
I do think Snape believes he's giving an accurate account and for the most part is, but he always taints things a bit with other emotions. I'm sure it was tricky for him to discuss, because he didn't want to sound like a victim, even if it exposed the Marauders as bullies.
PeskyPixie - Feb 27, 2008 12:23 pm (#1842 of 1982)
This thread moves to fast -Anna L. Black
Same Snapers, different thread.
wynnleaf - Feb 27, 2008 2:33 pm (#1843 of 1982)
Snape has been known to skew things a bit. At the end of HBP he told Harry that James always attacked him 4-1. But while in a tacit approval sort of way, Lupin helped in the Worst Memory scene, and Pettigrew could have offered help if need be, technically it was Sirius and James.
Somehow I can't picture Snape running to Dumbledore, in part because I don't have impression that he ran to Dumbledore, or any other staff, at other times. The Worst Memory scene is really quite awful, but I somehow doubt that Snape told. On the other hand, if he felt nothing much happened to even Sirius for the Prank, that may be why he perhaps didn't report the Worst Memory events.
I imagine that once James headed off to the tunnel to bring back Snape, Sirius probably followed. I can't imagine Sirius going back to Gryffindor knowing what James was doing. So when James pulled Snape out of the tunnel and away from the tree, my guess is that not only was Snape pretty scared (who wouldn't be?), but he was probably also furious. If Sirius was outside of the Willow waiting, still presumably amused, I wouldn't be surprised if some major altercation erupted right there, and since it was probably after curfew (we don't know it was after curfew), someone (Hagrid for instance?) could have discovered them in the midst of quite a scene of fury and the whole thing was ultimately brought to Dumbledore.
Of course, it could just as easily have been that Snape ran off to tell on them to Dumbledore, but Snape would have known from Madam Pomfrey accompanying Lupin that Lupin was a known werewolf (at least by the staff), and that his presence as such was still sanctioned at the school. If he was carrying tales to Dumbledore, it would have to be regarding the idea that the Marauders had tried to kill him, which he clearly did believe, not that Lupin was a werewolf.
I don't get the impression that Snape was in general a tale bearer. Neither Sirius nor Lupin ever imply that he was. In a way, it speaks even worse of Hogwarts if he did tell on the Marauders regularly, because then we'd have to assume that the staff couldn't stop bullying which they were aware of. I prefer to believe they didn't know about most of it, or the extent it reached.
Julia H. - Feb 27, 2008 3:52 pm (#1844 of 1982)
I agree, Wynnleaf. It does seem to be more likely to me as well that the boys were discovered somehow right after the Prank: teenagers (and rather wild ones) after such an incident, one is furious, the other maybe laughing, the third one doing who knows what and a werewolf is perhaps coming out of the tunnel (or howling inside), the tension is high, common sense is left way behind - they are bound to be noisy. As for Snape, we often see how he reacts to stress with fury but he also seems to be a loner type, who does not hurry to ask for help - as a child, he may not be used to getting much help from adults anyway. Pride may also be important: it is bad enough that Sirius, as he believes, tried to kill him, but then it also resulted in the additional humiliation of James saving his life - would then he really go and complain about it all? As Accio Sirius says: "... he didn't want to sound like a victim".
(Teenage-boy psychology again: I know of a former teenager who was overcome by several rival boys during a fight and was almost strangled while lying on the ground by the sheer weight of the others on him when a teacher found them and put an end to the fight. As he got to his feet with a green face, the first thing he said was "we were just playing" - when they were clearly not.)
If the boys were discovered by an adult somewhere near the tunnel (and near a werewolf), they could soon find themselves in front of Dumbledore and they could all tell their respective versions of the story.
PeskyPixie - Feb 27, 2008 5:04 pm (#1845 of 1982)
If he was carrying tales to Dumbledore, it would have to be regarding the idea that the Marauders had tried to kill him, which he clearly did believe, not that Lupin was a werewolf. -wynnleaf
I'm not sure whether you read my post or not, however, I mentioned that if Snape had indeed been the 'tale-bearer', it would have about the attempt to 'murder' him. However, the events of that evening/night center around Lupin's monthly hiding place and even if Snape's knowledge of the werewolf wasn't brought up as part of his story, Dumbledore would be aware that someone might be in on the secret and that he needed to have a talk with all of the boys involved before the situation got out of hand and Lupin paid the price for it.
If Sirius was outside of the Willow waiting, still presumably amused, I wouldn't be surprised if some major altercation erupted right there, and since it was probably after curfew (we don't know it was after curfew), someone (Hagrid for instance?) could have discovered them in the midst of quite a scene of fury and the whole thing was ultimately brought to Dumbledore. -wynnleaf
This is certainly a possible scenario. If I may adapt it to form yet another: "If Sirius was outside of the Willow waiting, still presumably amused, I wouldn't be surprised if some major altercation erupted right there," and maybe Snape threatened them that he would leak Lupin's story thereby having him removed from Hogwarts (i.e. Lupin's condition is hidden because no one wants a werewolf among their children). I can see Sirius and James throwing all caution to the winds about their own curfew breaking to take Snape forcefully to Dumbledore in order to protect their friend.
You see, I don't believe Snape saw himself as a true 'victim' here. The Prank was just proof to him of how the Marauders could only overcome him '4 on 1'. But now I'm back on Snape ... and this is Sirius' thread.
Julia H. - Feb 28, 2008 4:36 am (#1846 of 1982)
Pesky's scenario is another quite possible one. In this case each boy had a strong motivation to tell the story, the marauders stressing Snape's intention to get Lupin into trouble and James saving Snape's life but "forgetting" to mention animagia and their monthly "excursions", while Snape emphasizing the role Sirius had played in the prank. Dumbledore was concerned about Lupin, so he, so to speak, may have sided with the marauders (who were Gryffindors anyway).
PeskyPixie - Mar 3, 2008 11:07 pm (#1847 of 1982)
I think we agree that Sirius is naturally impulsive and this trait, combined with youth and popularity, lead him to make choices as a teen which may have had deadly results. Then, at the relatively young age of twenty-one he is carted off to Azkaban to spend twelve years in a prison cell. Thus, he does not have a chance to mature and when he escapes from prison at age 33, he is still emotionally in his teens and also carries the emotional/psychological scars of his time in Azkaban. This is why I don't take his, Snape 'deserved it' comment in PoA too seriously.
However, does he ever mature, or start to mature before his untimely end?
wynnleaf - Mar 4, 2008 8:03 am (#1848 of 1982)
Thus, he does not have a chance to mature and when he escapes from prison at age 33, he is still emotionally in his teens and also carries the emotional/psychological scars of his time in Azkaban. This is why I don't take his, Snape 'deserved it' comment in PoA too seriously. (Pesky)
I agree that we don't judge 33 year old Sirius by 33 year old standards. But I think we can judge that remark based on 21 year old standards. I interpret that remark to show that by the time Sirius went to prison at age 21, he still didn't have any real regrets about Snape almost getting killed. Well, perhaps he regretted getting Lupin into that situation - we don't know as he doesn't address that. But even 5 or 6 years after the Prank, he apparently still thought Snape deserved it, and he came out of Azkaban with those same opinions intact.
I don't think we get any indication that he matured between age 15 and age 21. Why should he mature in the 3 years after his escape from Azkaban? By that time he's been highly traumatized, on the run, living rough, and then living in a kind of incarceration in another type of "prison." I don't see that he has much opportunity to mature.
Julia H. - Mar 4, 2008 8:28 am (#1849 of 1982)
So would he be emotionally still 15 in OOTP? That is the same age as Harry's. Actually, it would be hard to decide if any of them is more mature than the other. On occasion Harry seems to behave in a more mature way but not always, I guess.
Accio Sirius - Mar 4, 2008 5:03 pm (#1850 of 1982)
Well, he was willing to be a father to Harry, have him live with him, and that takes a good deal of maturity. Some grown men never reach that point. I don't think it was like he was across the board emotionally stunted. There were areas where he was obviously behind, but his faithfulness/loyalties seem to have grown during those years. I don't think he would have been a traditional father, and while he was willing to risk his own safety and be reckless, he didn't seem to be as willing to let Harry do the same. I liked that he wanted to share information with Harry. As a parent, I often try to talk more openly about some issues in age appropriate ways. But look at how not sharing information hurt Harry throughout the books.
Julia H. - Mar 5, 2008 12:09 am (#1851 of 1982)
Accio Sirius, you are absolutely right. Trying to be a father to Harry was his most mature decision perhaps. I also agree that he was right when he wanted to share information with Harry and it would have been much better to tell Harry things that concerned him in a simple way rather than endangering his safety by keeping information from him, making him nervous because of the secrets around him and letting him learn about them in a much harder way. I cannot see it so much that his faithfulness/loyalty may have grown over these years: Sirius appears to have been quite a faithful/loyal person earlier. However, he was not only a "father" to Harry but also a "brother". Harry saw the need to comfort him and to "protect" him and that is why Harry did not want to use the mirror. Harry also stepped in when Sirius and Snape almost started to fight. At this moment Harry seemed to be the most mature of the three. Sirius wanted to find James in Harry a bit too much (and he even seemed to be disappointed when Harry was not James enough) and could not get over some of his teenager attitudes. So I think there were moments when Harry seemed to be more mature than Sirius (and he was only 15) but at other times, of course, Sirius did behave as a more experienced and protective adult or at least an older brother to Harry.
Orion - Mar 5, 2008 2:31 am (#1852 of 1982)
Yes, the scene in OOP when Harry jumps between Snape and Sirius to prevent them from hexing each other into a pulp! He seems to jump between two irate dogs, not two grown men. Sirius never seems very grown up to me. He is looking for a best mate, or for a substitute for his best mate James. That was so good in the OOP movie: "Nice one, James!" (Script better than book, not often the case.)
But I agree with Accio Sirius and Julia, if Sirius had stood up to Molly in OOP and told Harry everything straight away - a person with more direct confrontations with LV than any other adult in the Order - a lot of tragic consequences wouldn't have happened.
Anna L. Black - Mar 5, 2008 3:37 am (#1853 of 1982)
Sirius wanted to find James in Harry a bit too much - Julia
Interestingly, that's one thing that Sirius and Snape have in common. They both think that Harry is much more like James than he really is.
Julia H. - Mar 5, 2008 4:24 am (#1854 of 1982)
"Interestingly, that's one thing that Sirius and Snape have in common. They both think that Harry is much more like James than he really is." (Anna)
Yes, and it influences their feelings towards Harry. Another thing they have in common is their intention to protect Harry and their willingness to risk their lives for Harry. It is very sad that they cannot get over their old enmity.
Orion mentioned the movies. ( "Nice one, James!" is good, I agree.) That Snape and Sirius have this common goal is shown very beautifully at the end of the POA-movie (one of the few changes that I like) when Snape is standing between the children and the werewolf, while Sirius turns into a dog to fight the werewolf. This scene makes it very clear how similar their goals and their decisions can be.
Still another thing they share is their willingness to give Harry information in OOTP. Sirius says that Harry has a right to know what concerns him and tells him as much as the other adults (Molly in the first place) let him tell, then Snape tells him perhaps even more at the beginning of the occlumency lessons.
wynnleaf - Mar 5, 2008 9:17 am (#1855 of 1982)
Good posts from all.
I didn't mean to imply that Sirius was just like a 15 year old and hadn't matured at all. I just meant that he seems to have retained a good deal of immaturity after we last see him in the Worst Memory scene, up through the Potter's deaths, because we know he continued to think Snape deserved the Prank, kept running around with Lupin at full moons throughout their school time, and if they did back off with their hexing in the hallways, it seems to have been more James' idea because he wanted Lily to date him. Further, Sirius' idea about using Pettigrew was extremely ill-judged. Even without hindsight of knowing Peter was a traitor, we still see him in the Worst Memory scene and he just seems like such a slimy person, practically panting over watching someone else torment a person. Besides, Sirius' idea about Peter was the kind of convoluted logic of adolescence -- they weakest person is the safest because no one would suspect them? Come on!
Anyway, I'm sure Sirius did mature in some ways. It's just that he really didn't have any sort of "normal" life ever, and especially not after going to Azkaban.
By the way, Sirius did, in GOF or OOTP (can't recall which), try to get Harry to sneak out and meet him. When Harry wouldn't do it, Sirius was disappointed saying that Harry wasn't like James, who would have been up for such adventures. That's an instance of Sirius being immature in his comparison with James, but also immature in asking Harry to take such a risk.
Accio Sirius - Apr 16, 2008 6:28 pm (#1856 of 1982)
I read in some sort of post DH interview by JKR that Sirius, James and Lily were full time fighters for the Order and that James supported Sirius and Lily.
I wonder if that was one of her "gaffs" that she tends to have (like Ron being an Auror and working in the joke shop) because the implication in the books is that Sirius had money (maybe not much) from his Uncle. Her quote just struck me as slightly odd. Anybody?
She also said she had worked out Sirius' childhood in detail. I certainly hope that is included in the Scottish book, especially in regards to his relationship with Regulus. I wonder if Regulus and Snape had any kind of relationship or if Snape disliked Regulus just because he was Sirius' brother.
wynnleaf - Apr 16, 2008 7:52 pm (#1857 of 1982)
Sirius, if I recall correctly, inherited money from his family. But we don't know exactly when that occurred. At the time James and Lily were alive, Sirius may not have inherited anything and, being estranged from his family, had nothing to live on.
PeskyPixie - Apr 17, 2008 7:36 am (#1858 of 1982)
I thought that Sirius and James supported Remus.
PeskyPixie - Aug 20, 2009 9:34 am (#1859 of 1982)
In DH we learn that Regulus kept quiet about setting out to destroy the locket horcrux. Hermione comes to the conclusion that Regulus kept quiet about his change of allegiance because he did not wish to endanger his loved ones.
However, in OotP Sirius states that his idiot little brother was killed when he tried to leave the Death Eaters. Does this make sense to anyone?
Orion - Aug 20, 2009 12:07 pm (#1860 of 1982)
I don't have my book, but it must have looked like that from the outside. DE gets killed by DEs, ergo, he must have tried to leave them. But of course the book might be more detailed than that.
Hieronymus Graubart - Aug 21, 2009 8:00 am (#1861 of 1982)
But Regulus was not killed by DEs, it seems that he died in the cave. Looking from outside, he had just disappeared. Sirius could not even be sure that his brother was dead.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 21, 2009 1:16 pm (#1862 of 1982)
We are told Kreacher took orders from Regulus but wouldn't he have to spill his guts to Mrs Black if she asked Kreacher if he knew anything about her missing son? I'm assuming this didn't happen but I've wondered about it.
Julia H. - Aug 21, 2009 3:21 pm (#1863 of 1982)
If Kreacher had told Mrs Black the truth, it would have turned out that Regulus had not been killed by the DE's. But I'm not sure Mrs Black could be Sirius's source, as they were not on speaking terms. I agree that it must have simply seemed that he had disappeared - and Voldemort must have also wondered where Regulus was.
I guess Sirius may have known that Regulus had not been killed or imprisoned by the aurors (or Order members). Still, how did he find out that Regulus was missing at all? One possibility I can think about is that some information about Regulus may have come from a "DE source", from Snape, for example, or from a DE arrested after Voldemort's downfall. They could only say that Regulus had disappeared, but they may have noticed his changed behaviour before his disappearance. From this, Sirius may have concluded that Regulus had "got cold feet" (and that was why his behaviour had changed), perhaps tried to flee (when he had disappeared), and since nobody heard about him any more, it was likely that the DE's had found him and killed him - without the informant's knowledge though.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 23, 2009 6:30 pm (#1864 of 1982)
I agree that Mrs Black didn't know. But isn't it odd that she never asked Kreacher where the "fortunate son" had gone?
(maybe this is for the "odd" thread...)
Julia H. - Aug 24, 2009 1:54 am (#1865 of 1982)
Maybe she did not know that Kreacher knew. It is an interesting question what Kreacher would have done if he had received conflicting orders from his master and his mistress.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 26, 2009 10:38 am (#1866 of 1982)
We will have to assume she did not know in order for the plot to work... but I must say I had to suspend disbelief for various reasons.
Regarding what would happen if a House-Elf gets conflicting orders, I would imagine seniority reigns. For instance, Draco would not "trump" Lucius if they gave conflicting orders to Dobby, IMO.
PeskyPixie - Aug 26, 2009 11:41 am (#1867 of 1982)
It's just odd that Sirius would know that the stupid idiot was killed by Death Eaters (he says this like it's a well-known piece of gossip), but then we learn that in reality the kid just disappeared without even openly giving the impression of trying to leave the Dark Lord.
Unless, it was just that. A piece of gossip which circulated after Regulus disappeared?
Madam Pince - Aug 26, 2009 12:49 pm (#1868 of 1982)
Well, wasn't that during the time when a lot of people were being killed by Death Eaters? It stands to reason that if someone just mysteriously disappeared, the odds were pretty good as to whodunnit.
Solitaire - Aug 26, 2009 4:36 pm (#1869 of 1982)
Kreacher seems to be to have been more loyal to Master Regulus. I think he truly loved him in much the same way that Dobby loved Harry ... maybe more.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 26, 2009 6:29 pm (#1870 of 1982)
But the question is, Soli, whether a House-Elf's feelings have anything to do with their loyalty to a family member... I feel that parent / Head of House rules. ? It's a moot point but curious, very curious!
Julia H. - Aug 27, 2009 1:44 am (#1871 of 1982)
It is possible that Kreacher was more loyal to Regulus because he loved him more, and, to fulfill his dying wish, Kreacher may have been willing to punish himself again and again. (It seems house-elves can be disloyal or disobedient, but they must punish themselves.)
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 27, 2009 8:55 am (#1872 of 1982)
That's true, Julia. Perhaps Kreacher lied to Mrs Black then ironed his hands every hour on the hour for a few years. Poor little guy.
Solitaire - Aug 28, 2009 7:52 pm (#1873 of 1982)
Winky's loyalties were obviously torn between Mr. Crouch and Barty, Jr. Of course, once she had been given clothes, she seemed to be loyal to Barty only.
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wynnleaf - Sep 12, 2009 7:41 am (#1874 of 1982)
This post and the following one are about the Marauders in general. I'm putting under Sirius' thread because he and James were the leaders of the Marauders and because it is from Sirius and Lupin that we "hear" most of the commentary about their activities and thoughts as teenagers.
In OOTP, Sirius tells Harry that James always hated the Dark Arts. In DH, Lily seems to comment to Severus that the difference between the bad behavior of Severus’ friends and the bad behavior of the Marauders is that Severus’ Slytherin friends use Dark magic. The Half Blood Prince’s notes in the Potions textbook are considered mostly great improvements on potions or fun hexes and jinxes until Harry discovers that Sectumsempra is a dark curse, at which point the HBP becomes highly questionable.
We are never told exactly what “dark magic” really is, however we are told that injuries from dark curses are very difficult to heal and that the worst dark curses, the unforgiveables, do not have a countercurse.
We know that young Severus had friends who used dark magic, used some dark curses himself (at least Sectumsempra), and may have invented that dark curse.
However, is it really true that the Marauders did not toy with dark magic?
Remus Lupin, as a human youth, is an average boy, albeit with some faults, and it is completely understandable that his friends would want to support him in his difficulties, but Remus is not always Remus and when he is not Remus, he is a Dark Creature. In Magical Beasts and Where to Find Them, JKR points out that the werewolves are Dark. What characteristics might make them “dark” rather than simply “magical”? What’s the difference in a “dark creature” and a magical one, such as a crup? The werewolf is, without Wolfsbane, a mindless and terrifying beast which has the capability of inflicting dark wounds, wounds which will never completely heal. Further, if the werewolf bites someone, the werewolf inflicts a curse upon that person which cannot be countered and which will never go away. Wounds that don’t heal, and curses that can’t be removed. That’s actually an even darker result than Sectumsempra, which only creates wounds which are difficult to heal, but does not inflict an unremovable curse which deeply affects the person for the rest of their life.
The Marauders knew that a werewolf was a dark creature and practically the embodiment of a dark curse. Dark creatures are taught in the DADA textbook for 3rd year, and there are questions about werewolves on the NEWT, so clearly detailed knowledge about werewolves is expected of students.
I imagine that James and Sirius would never even have considered that they were actually playing with the Dark. They would probably not ever have thought that they were subjecting all and sundry to the risk of a permanent dark curse, or permanent dark wounds. They knew it was dangerous, but probably didn't think of it as "Dark", but it was Dark nevertheless. I imagine that they could fill out the questions on werewolves in an exam to perfection and yet never even think about the fact that they were in fact playing with Dark magic every single month. And yet they were. It’s just that, because their friend was involved, they considered it all in good fun. I’m sure they thought they could “handle it” and control the Dark characteristics of the werewolf. And because Lupin was their friend and it was all in fun, and they thought they could handle it, they’d feel it was all okay.
Readers generally agree with Lily that it’s wrong for Snape to see his friend’s use of a dark magic “joke” on Mary MacDonald as humorous. But Sirius’ “prank” on Snape was essentially using the fear and danger of a dark cursed creature on Snape, making his “joke” probably even more dark than the one played on Mary.
wynnleaf - Sep 12, 2009 7:42 am (#1875 of 1982)
And then there’s the Marauder’s Map.
In HBP, Snape called Sectumsempra “dark”, and for the most part, we readers immediately believed Snape was telling us the exact truth. Sectumsempra was Dark. In DH, we learned that, being Dark, Sectumsempra’s wounds were very difficult to heal and that George’s ear couldn’t be grown back, so Snape’s comment is confirmed.
In POA Snape takes a piece of magical parchment from Harry and proclaims it dark as well. But because we know it was created by the Marauders who considered themselves opposed to dark magic, readers assume the Map is fine. Still, the parchment seems to have a mind of it’s own with no place to put its “brain”. Arthur Weasley tells Ginny that this is something of which to be very wary. Lupin confirms that the characters in the Map might want to influence Harry toward bad behavior. And even JKR commented that Fred and George would have been possibly helped to discover the workings of the Map by the very “persons” within it. While Snape may have been speaking without enough evidence, we are shown further evidence of the Map’s questionable characteristics.
The Map was created, not for the more altruistic and sometimes noble purposes of Harry – protecting others, catching bad guys – but very specifically for “no good”. It was created to break rules, by a group of boys rather well known for hexing other kids and breaking rules. What did they use it for? Of course, probably similar things as Fred and George, like getting to the kitchens or Honeydukes. Boys who regularly hexed other kids, and especially with an ongoing “war” with Snape, would find it easily used for surprise attacks on others. And then there’s the spying use. What boy (other than Harry who is preoccupied with other things) could resist? A snicker and wink and, “Look, Bob and Mary are alone in the broom closet again!” Of course, none of this makes it specifically “dark”, except perhaps for that unfortunate Vow. “I solemnly swear I am up to no good.” A wizard, holding a wand, making a solemn vow for wrongdoing, while using a magical item specifically created to enable wrongdoing, which is somehow enchanted with magical personal intent, mirroring the creators, who will encourage others to follow suit.
Perhaps this isn’t actually Dark, but it is certainly highly questionable. This is the kind of stuff that Arthur felt should have warned Ginny off of the Diary. What makes it “just in fun” or only “a laugh?” The intent of the makers? And what was one of their intentions in using the Map? To sneak out following the revealed secret passageways and release a creature bearing a Dark Curse on the local population.
Of course, I’m quite convinced that James and Sirius never considered themselves to be toying with or playing with Dark magic. And yet we know that they did just that on a monthly basis when they released the werewolf. And they may have done it in creating the Map.
And then there’s the friends. We learn, through Lily, that part of young Severus’ problem is that he was hanging out with the wrong sort of friends, the sort of friends who would one day become Death Eaters. Of course, Severus should, as far as we can tell, have been aware that his friends were interested in becoming Death Eaters. At least, Lily implies this. Still, one cannot judge one’s friends solely by the label. Surely one should be able to tell something about them as a person, rather than having to rely on whether they proclaim an interest in joining the current Hate Group.
And did James, Sirius and Remus have a friend who was the sort to become a Death Eater? Well, yes, they had just such a nasty friend as well. Their friend Peter didn’t just suddenly morph overnight into a person willing to betray his friends to their deaths and kill a dozen other people. No, even at 15 he watched Sirius and James persecute another student, practically salivating with glee with the thrill of watching it. Sirius commented later in POA that Peter was the sort to gravitate to the biggest bully in the playground. And the fascinating thing about Peter is that it was not the rest of the Marauders who were so interested in and attracted to hanging out with Peter, but instead it was Peter who was very interested in and attracted to the idea of hanging out with them. Was it their wholesome fun loving nature that appealed to Peter? Or did he like the edginess of running with a Dark creature, or being “in” on the opportunities to hex other kids in the safety of a group?
Am I saying the Marauders were just as bad as the Slytherins that were bent on joining LV?
Absolutely not! I don’t for a minute think James and Sirius ever considered that they personally enjoyed their own fun with Darkness. And they would never have espoused the sort of hating of muggleborns that Lily saw in many kids in Slytherin.
However, I do think they lived a huge double standard. They were probably not particular self-reflective, and James appears too generally pleased with himself to ever consider how close some of his own faults were to some of the Death Eaters-in-training in Slytherin. Sirius and James certainly never considered their monthly excursions adventures with Dark magic, but that’s exactly what they were doing. They claimed to oppose dark magic, all the while blind to the fun they were having with it.
There are some big distinctions – most especially the attitudes toward muggleborns. Still, I think that the Marauders and perhaps Gryffindor in general, were a little to self-satisfied to realize just how often they reflected little better behavior or proclivities than some of the behavior which they would have decried in their “enemies” in the opposing House.
Madam Pince - Sep 12, 2009 8:06 am (#1876 of 1982)
*applauds*
Excellent essay, wynnleaf.
Orion - Sep 13, 2009 10:36 am (#1877 of 1982)
Yes, the difference between the Diary and the Map has always bothered me as well. You can't see where the two little blighters keep their brains, that makes them Dark Objects, IMO. And it also bothers me that Sirius not only made fun of Snape in the Prank, but also of Remus, treating him like a monster and using him as a monster. Haha, I know where the monster is and I lure a jerk down the tunnel to the monster. Hey, the monster is your friend, you jerk. It's mindless and inhuman. Basically, when young Sirius is friendly to human-shaped Remus, he's lying through his teeth. Or he has a huge compartmentalisation (spelling???) problem.
Steve Newton - Sep 13, 2009 11:00 am (#1878 of 1982)
I don't understand why you think that if you can't see where the two little blighters keep their brains, that makes them Dark Objects.
On the other hand I do think that Sirius was a bit of a whack job.
Solitaire - Sep 13, 2009 3:11 pm (#1879 of 1982)
On the other hand I do think that Sirius was a bit of a whack job.
Is it possible that he was just reactionary to his Dark Wizard family background? Growing up in that house when his parents were still alive must have been more hellish than living in it during the time frame covered in OotP. Could that have contributed to his hatred of the Dark-leaning Snape? Is it possible that James and Sirius saw themselves as some youthful (and stupid, as we now know) avengers against Dark Wizards? We know James always hated Dark Wizards. So, probably, did Sirius, based on his own home life. Lots of times people try to do the right thing, but they do it for the wrong reasons ... or they do it badly.
To be sure, Sirius did use Remus, and that was not the action of a friend. Had Snape been killed or even bitten, Remus would have surely been "kissed." Who do you suppose told James about "the Prank"? Peter? Lily? Did Snape let just enough info fall that Lily was able to figure out part of what was going on and alert James? Is that how she found out about the whole thing?
About the Map and the Diary ... I guess I see them as quite different, considering one has a piece of Voldy's soul in it and is trying to kill Ginny.
Orion - Sep 13, 2009 3:27 pm (#1880 of 1982)
It's what Arthur says to Ginny. If you can't see where it keeps its brain, don't touch it, don't communicate with it, it's highly dangerous. But it's correct that he never says that it's a qualification for being a Dark Object. The big front doors can even be taught to recognize pictures of Sirius without being Dark Objects. My fault, my misunderstanding.
wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2009 3:39 pm (#1881 of 1982)
We don't have much direct evidence that the Map is dark. The only direct comment we have about the map being dark is Snape's assessment, and all he had to go on (as far as we know), is that it was thinking for itself. We know that Arthur considered such an object highly dangerous although he did not say that made an object dark.
But where I might have once assumed that James and Sirius, and the rest of the Marauders, wouldn't have played around with dark magic, it has now occurred to me that we know of circumstances where they did play -- literally -- with dark magic on a regular basis and apparently considered it a lark and quite okay because they assumed they could control a very dark magical beast, who could inflict wounds that wouldn't heal and a curse that couldn't be broken. This makes it much easier for me to think that Sirius and James could have created a dark object without ever thinking about whether or not it was dark.
After all, assuming Snape was the creator of Sectumsempra, a bright student can create something that is "dark". As an adult Snape knew that Sectumsempra was dark magic. Could the Marauders have created a dark object without ever reflecting on aspects of it that could make it Dark? Yes, of course they could. Even as adults, Sirius truly and sincerely believes that James hated all things Dark, without even being considering that they were setting the embodiment of a Dark curse loose on the countryside every month.
Excellent essay, wynnleaf. (Madam Pince)
Thanks!
Solitaire - Sep 13, 2009 7:01 pm (#1882 of 1982)
it has now occurred to me that we know of circumstances where they did play -- literally -- with dark magic on a regular basis and apparently considered it a lark
Did they consider it a lark? I think that's stretching the meaning of what Lupin and Sirius said rather a lot ... and, yes, I realize that is only my opinion. I do think they realized how dangerous what they were doing was--even Lupin admits they had close calls--but I believe they did it to try and protect Lupin from the harm he did himself as well as to prevent him from doing harm to others. I figure this probably stems from the typical teenager's belief that he is invincible ... that nothing bad can happen to him. Lupin himself says something like "... under their influence, I became less dangerous, my mind less wolfish." (I apologize that I do not have the direct quote, but my books are still packed away.) If he had close calls with them, what would have happened without them? By the time of the prank, it seems Lupin is a fully-grown Werewolf. Perhaps he was capable of leaving the Shack on his own by this time ... and perhaps their presence was critical.
Just my opinions.
wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2009 7:20 pm (#1883 of 1982)
Here's a few comments from POA where Lupin describes why the rest of the Marauders transformed, and then why they left the Shack on larks. Larks, by the way, are defined as "a source of or quest for amusement or adventure", Miriam Webster Dictionary/
They could each turn into a different animal at will.’
‘But how did that help you?’ said Hermione, sounding puzzled.
‘They couldn’t keep me company as humans, so they kept me company as animals,’ said Lupin. ‘A werewolf is only a danger to people. They sneaked out of the castle every month under James’s Invisibility Cloak. They transformed ... Peter, as the smallest, could slip beneath the Willow’s attacking branches and touch the knot that freezes it. They would then slip down the tunnel and join me. Under their influence, I became less dangerous. My body was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so while I was with them.’
... well, highly exciting possibilities were open to us now we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night. Sirius and James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check. I doubt whether any Hogwarts students ever found out more about the Hogwarts grounds and Hogsmeade than we did ... And that’s how we came to write the Marauder’s Map, and sign it with our nicknames. Sirius is Padfoot. Peter is Wormtail. James was Prongs.’
‘What sort of animal –?’ Harry began, but Hermione cut across him.
‘That was still really dangerous! Running around in the dark with a werewolf! What if you’d given the others the slip, and bitten somebody?’
‘A thought that still haunts me,’ said Lupin heavily. ‘And there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards. We were young, thoughtless – carried away with our own cleverness.’
‘I sometimes felt guilty about betraying Dumbledore’s trust, of course ... he had admitted me to Hogwarts when no other headmaster would have done so, and he had no idea I was breaking the rules he had set down for my own and others’ safety. He never knew I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally. But I always managed to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan our next month’s adventure.
Things to note.
1. When the Marauders became animagi and joined Lupin, they didn't automatically leave the Shack. That happened a bit later. So we know that simply becoming animagi in order to hang out with Lupin did not necessitate leaving the Shack.
2. They were tempted to leave the Shack due to the "exciting possibilities" and considered their monthly jaunts to be "our next month's adventure". That's pretty much the definition of a "lark".
3. While the animigi were able to keep the Dark werewolf somewhat in check, that did not stop there being "near misses, many of them". So clearly it wasn't really all that safe, or Lupin wouldn't speak "heavily" of it later, or consider, as an adult, their actions as "thoughtless" and carried away by their own cleverness.
4. The Map was created specifically in order to help them in their quest to have adventures after becoming animagi and going out with a werewolf every month.
5. Dumbledore set down the rules about staying the Shrieking Shack for the safety of Lupin and everyone else and had no idea that Lupin was no longer staying the Shack every month. We don't know what sort of spells or other protections DD had placed on the Shack, but he obviously thought the werewolf would stay in the Shack, not run around the school grounds and the village every month.
In any case, as far as my essay goes, my primary point was that the Marauders knew that a werewolf was a dark creature, able to inflict dark wounds that won't heal, and able to pass along a curse that could never be lifted, yet the Maruaders never seemed to think of what they did as having anything to do with Dark magic. They played with dark magic every month and risked dark wounds or dark curses on other innocent people and never thought about it as anything do to with Darkness.
Solitaire - Sep 13, 2009 7:56 pm (#1884 of 1982)
the Maruaders never seemed to think of what they did as having anything to do with Dark magic. They played with dark magic every month and risked dark wounds or dark curses on other innocent people and never thought about it as anything do to with Darkness.
I guess the difference, for me, must be intent. Because the Marauders were not Dark Wizards and had no intent of harming anyone (Okay, Sirius was the exception in this one incident.), they didn't think what they were doing was Dark Magic. Then again, neither do I. Death Nibblers, on the other hand, knew what they were doing was Dark ... and that is why they did it.
wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2009 8:16 pm (#1885 of 1982)
Death Nibblers, on the other hand, knew what they were doing was Dark ... and that is why they did it. (Solitaire)
I don't think we know that the Death Eater in training kids did Dark magic because it was dark, or for other intentions. We know that young Snape had Sectumsempra "for enemies", but have no indication that he chose or created that specific spell because it was dark, or just because he felt it was a spell that would work against enemies, with no more interest in whether or not there was a Dark aspect than Ginny might have in using her bat bogey curse. Or, for instance, since we have no indication of the intent of the spell used on Mary McDonald, or even what the spell did, we have no reason to believe that the caster did it just because he wanted to use a dark spell. Perhaps he wanted to play a malicious joke (and Sirius' "prank" was certainly also malicious), and simply chose whatever magic came to mind and it happened to be dark -- as did Sirius, even though Sirius certainly never considered that he was making use of a dark cursed creature for his "joke".
In other words, the Death-Eater-in-training kids might have chosen spells without consideration for whether or not they were dark, simply wanting whatever would get the result they wanted. That's, of course, wrong, since any student should have been consciously choosing to avoid dark magic, and the future DE kids wouldn't have cared if a spell was dark - it might have added to the interest in using it. The Marauders thought that they were consciously choosing to avoid dark magic, but in fact they consciously chose to engage in activities with what they knew to be Dark, but they disregarded the darkness to such a strong extent that even as adults they didn't realize what they'd done.
"Didn't realize what they'd done" isn't quite the right way to phrase it. It makes it sound like the Marauders never knew they were playing with such Darkness. They did know what a werewolf was. For whatever reasons, they never acknowledged it, even to themselves. It's like a sort of willful blindness.
Solitaire - Sep 13, 2009 9:01 pm (#1886 of 1982)
I personally believe DNs were coached by their families and pretty well knew what they were doing. I think they did know that the magic they were doing was Dark Magic. They'd have to be pretty stupid not to know, as they'd been taking DADA since arriving at Hogwarts. I believe there was intent to hurt on the part of the DNs. Snape claims they were just having fun. Perhaps hurting people was fun for them. On the other hand, I do not think--with the exception of Sirius's prank--that the Marauders intended to hurt anyone. Since Dumbledore obviously knew about the prank and must have questioned all concerned very closely, he must have been satisfied that the Marauders generally did not mean to harm. I'm sure Snape gave him all of his "ammo," too, so I'm supposing he heard both sides.
mona amon - Sep 13, 2009 9:05 pm (#1887 of 1982)
However, I do think they lived a huge double standard. They were probably not particular self-reflective, and James appears too generally pleased with himself to ever consider how close some of his own faults were to some of the Death Eaters-in-training in Slytherin. Sirius and James certainly never considered their monthly excursions adventures with Dark magic, but that’s exactly what they were doing. They claimed to oppose dark magic, all the while blind to the fun they were having with it. (Wynnleaf)
As Soli says above, the difference is intent. The fun, for the Marauders, lay in breaking curfew, breaking bounds, and roaming the village at night. The fun did not lie in getting the werewolf to harm people. But in the case of Severus's friends, the fun did lie in causing harm to Mary McDonald with their dark magic.
Of course, what the Marauders did was very wrong. If the werewolf had gotten away from them and bitten someone, they might just as well have deliberately set it loose on him for all the difference it makes to the victim.
And it also bothers me that Sirius not only made fun of Snape in the Prank, but also of Remus, treating him like a monster and using him as a monster. Haha, I know where the monster is and I lure a jerk down the tunnel to the monster. Hey, the monster is your friend, you jerk. It's mindless and inhuman. Basically, when young Sirius is friendly to human-shaped Remus, he's lying through his teeth. (Orion)
On the other hand I do think that Sirius was a bit of a whack job. (Steve)
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I fail to understand Sirius's mentality.
We don't have much direct evidence that the Map is dark. The only direct comment we have about the map being dark is Snape's assessment, and all he had to go on (as far as we know), is that it was thinking for itself. We know that Arthur considered such an object highly dangerous although he did not say that made an object dark. (Wynnleaf)
Severus called it dark because he was hopping mad about the way it had insulted him. I don't think we're meant to take his words seriously. I interpret Arthur's words as "when an object can think for itself, don't fool around with it unless you understand what it can do."
In short, I do not think the Marauders Map was a dark object. And I do not consider roaming the countryside with a werewolf as "playing with Dark Magic", though it might be just as bad. I do think that Sirius's prank falls into the 'using dark magic to harm' category. It never occured to me before, so thanks for pointing that out, Wynnleaf.
The Dark Magic question seems to have been important to the Marauders, Lily and Severus. There's a certain obsession about what's dark and what's not. But I don't think the author intended the reader to look at it that way. The way she has presented it, IMO, we are supposed to judge each action on its own merits, and not on whether it's dark magic or not.
EDIT: cross-posted with the last two posts.
wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2009 9:23 pm (#1888 of 1982)
I think they did know that the magic they were doing was Dark Magic. They'd have to be pretty stupid not to know, as they'd been taking DADA since arriving at Hogwarts. (Solitaire)
Yes, I completely agree. Ditto the Marauders and a werewolf. They also realized that a werewolf was Dark, produced Dark wounds, and spread a Dark curse for which there was no countercurse.
The future DE kids probably didn't mind consciously using a dark curse. The Marauders chose to disregard their use of the Dark.
I believe there was intent to hurt on the part of the DNs. Snape claims they were just having fun. Perhaps hurting people was fun for them. (Solitaire)
I'm assuming you're talking about the spell used on Mary. Problem is, we don't know that it hurt her. Lily's complaint was primarily that it was dark, not that Mary was ultimately much harmed, or even if she was harmed at all.
Did the Marauders enjoying harming others? The Worst Memory incident begins primarily because Sirius is bored and Peter certainly seems to be having a good time. They aren't using Dark magic at that moment, but they are clearly enjoying themselves while harming another person.
While intent is important, I think there are varying aspects to intent. Lack of malicious intent is not the same as ignorance. If the Marauders had been completely ignorant of a werewolf's dark aspects that would be one thing. But they weren't. The very reason they knew they needed animagi forms was because they knew the deadly dark nature of the beast and they knew being around the werewolf brought the threat of a dark curse. They didn't intend to bring harm to others, but they, like the future DE kids, would have been stupid not to know that the werewolf they released each month could pose a huge threat of darkness to others.
There's a certain obsession about what's dark and what's not. But I don't think the author intended the reader to look at it that way. (mona amon)
It was JKR herself who, in Magical Beast and Where to Find Them, as well as in POA, specifically states that the werewolf is Dark, specifically states in HBP that the werewolf inflicts dark wounds which don't completely heal, and tells us that the werewolf curse cannot be taken away. The fact that she also has the Marauders having a great time releasing this and actually playing with it, having adventures and so forth, is setting up a situation where the Marauders have fun with the embodiment of a Dark curse. Did she do it on purpose? Well, maybe she didn't think of it all that much, but she certainly made sure we learned all about werewolves being dark and the dark threat they presented.
As for the map:
Severus called it dark because he was hopping mad about the way it had insulted him. I don't think we're meant to take his words seriously. (mona amon)
We are never told why he called it dark.
Here's what Arthur said about the Diary -- and remember, he didn't know it was a horcrux.
Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can’t see where it keeps its brain. Why didn’t you show the diary to me, or your mother? A suspicious object like that, it was clearly full of dark magic!’
According to Arthur then, the very things that made it suspicious - thinking for itself when you can't see where it keeps its brain -- makes it "a suspicious object" that was "clearly full of dark magic". Since that's exactly what Snape would have seen in the piece of parchment when he took it from Harry, his statement that it was Dark makes a lot of sense, even if he was possibly wrong. In fact, Snape says virtually the same thing as Arthur. "This parchment is plainly full of Dark Magic."
Madam Pince - Sep 14, 2009 2:58 am (#1889 of 1982)
While intent is important, I think there are varying aspects to intent. Lack of malicious intent is not the same as ignorance. If the Marauders had been completely ignorant of a werewolf's dark aspects that would be one thing. But they weren't. The very reason they knew they needed animagi forms was because they knew the deadly dark nature of the beast and they knew being around the werewolf brought the threat of a dark curse. They didn't intend to bring harm to others, but they, like the future DE kids, would have been stupid not to know that the werewolf they released each month could pose a huge threat of darkness to others. --wynnleaf
Exactly. Take, for example, the issue of drunk driving. How many innocent people have been killed by people who "didn't mean to hurt anyone," yet, like the Marauders, surely should've known that such a result could've come about as a result of their choices? That they didn't "intend" it does not diminish the results. We put people in jail for that every day, as well we should. In my opinion, intent doesn't enter into it (short of complete ignorance, as wynnleaf says.) Hurting someone because you enjoy the fun of watching someone get hurt, and hurting someone because you're too busy having fun to consider the possibility that someone else might get hurt have the same results -- someone gets hurt. Perhaps just natural human feelings might make some "dislike" the former a lot more, but as far as guilt and/or punishment goes, they should both be treated equally, in my opinion.
wynnleaf - Sep 14, 2009 5:42 am (#1890 of 1982)
I am not at all meaning to say or imply that the kids who wanted to become Death Eaters were no worse than the Marauders. Intent does count for something. The person who kills someone while driving drunk will be prosecuted, but not for the same level of murder as a person who plans out and intentionally murders someone. Nevertheless, lack of bad intent does not absolve, especially when one knows what the consequences could be.
Still, that's not what I'm trying to get at with the Marauders. We all know they were reckless and disregarded the dangers of running around with a werewolf because they wanted to support Lupin and have fun adventures and were thoughtless teenagers.
What I am focusing on is their double standard, which they apparently never saw, even when Lupin and Sirius were adults. They knew that the werewolf was dark, knew it could inflict dark wounds and dark curses, and yet played with that darkness every month and never acknowledged the darkness.
The Marauders opposed dark magic, yet created the Marauder's Map which at the very least should have sent up warning flags in their minds (at least, if you agree with Arthur), that they might be creating a dark object.
Sirius and Lily see it as a negative against Snape's character that he had friends who wanted to be and later became Death Eaters. But they never saw it as a negative in the Marauder's characters that they had a good friend who was also Death Eater material and were unable to see Peter's glee in seeing the harming of others, his desire to gravitate to the biggest bully -- the very things that led him into LV's service -- as indicative of a very bad character.
Why did they never, even as adults, see the dark aspects of their interests? I believe it's because, like many people in real life, they were too convinced that being on the right, the "good" side, made any of their actions okay, or at least, not so bad. They would never have considered their own actions as indicative of interest in dark things. It's like assuming that what you're doing can't possibly be all that bad because it's you doing it and you aren't a bad person. Kind of like, "We're opposed to dark magic, therefore whatever we get involved with couldn't possibly be dark, because it's us doing it."
mona amon - Sep 14, 2009 9:23 am (#1891 of 1982)
Did the Marauders enjoying harming others? (Wynnleaf)
I'd say yes, they certainly did, and that's why I can't stand them.
There's a certain obsession about what's dark and what's not. But I don't think the author intended the reader to look at it that way. (mona amon)
It was JKR herself who, in Magical Beast and Where to Find Them, as well as in POA, specifically states that the werewolf is Dark,...[cut]...(Wynnleaf)
What I mean is, I don't think JKR intended us to share the Marauders' and Lily's obsession with what's dark and what's not. We are supposed to judge every action by its consequences, IMO, and not by its label. But I forget why I mentioned this.
Still, that's not what I'm trying to get at with the Marauders. We all know they were reckless and disregarded the dangers of running around with a werewolf because they wanted to support Lupin and have fun adventures and were thoughtless teenagers.
What I am focusing on is their double standard, which they apparently never saw, even when Lupin and Sirius were adults. They knew that the werewolf was dark, knew it could inflict dark wounds and dark curses, and yet played with that darkness every month and never acknowledged the darkness.
Okay, you've convinced me. (For once! )
I still don't agree about the Marauders Map being dark, just because it can think. That would make the Sorting Hat and all portraits dark objects. But I'm beginning to see your main point. The Marauders really should have examined themseves a bit more closely before taking up such a holier-than-thou attitude against the practitioners of the Dark Arts.
(Editted)
Steve Newton - Sep 14, 2009 9:58 am (#1892 of 1982)
Calling a wwerewolf dark seems a tad harsh. The condition may be dark but the victim is not necessarily.
"hey had a good friend who was also Death Eater material and were unable to see Peter's glee in seeing the harming of others, his desire to gravitate to the biggest bully" I'm not sure how this is relevant. Trusting a friend, despite his faults, is usually a good thing. In fact it may be part of the definition of what a friend is.
"Did the Marauders enjoying harming others? (Wynnleaf)
I'd say yes, they certainly did, and that's why I can't stand them."
Severus and James certainly had an instant dislike for each other. Later they seem to be rivals for Lily's affection. This is the only instance in which we see or hear of any enjoyment in harming others and it is told strictly, and selectively, from the viewpoint of one of the characters with a vested interest.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 14, 2009 10:33 am (#1893 of 1982)
Steve, I know what you mean about your werewolf comment, but unfortunately, like a vampire who has been bitten and doomed, they are still stuck with the stigma.
Regarding what we are told about the rivalry, a Pensieve memory is not considered a "viewpoint of one of the characters with a vested interest". Additionally, that it is viewed by Harry, who is vested in hating Severus, and he comes out feeling sympathetic towards Severus, is really saying something IMO.
Steve Newton - Sep 14, 2009 10:36 am (#1894 of 1982)
Indeed, the penseive memory is real but it was hand selected by one of the parties. Sorry for the unclear writing.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 14, 2009 10:51 am (#1895 of 1982)
No problem, Steve. My real point is that JKR was the actual person who hand selected the information. So on one hand, we are left to decide for ourselves what has been "left out", and on the other hand we might feel she gave us everything needed to make an assessment, or at least understand *her* point.
IMO the bottom line with this debate is the hypocrisy factor that JKR has wedged into this series. Everyone has it, and it is much easier to see the fault in others' "good intentions" than to see it in your own rationalizations of your behavior. Sometimes those with "good intentions" are the ones to look out for, dishing out suggestions for everyone else's "best interest". You know that old saying, what the road to hell is paved with... I am absolutely sure that Sirius had more of a cavalier attitude about his "darkish" behavior than James, which makes James that much more irritating for me. His hypocrisy level is through the roof, on par with Severus. Sirius, IMO, is a Black and has inbred tendencies that he has either chosen to go against or naturally sees the fault in but cannot help falling into now and again.
But for me it is all about hypocrisy and how to reflect on your own actions in order to grow as a person. We have Severus doing some reflection regarding Lily and it pretty much stops with that. We have James *possibly* reflecting with trying to alert Severus about the Prank, and we have Sirius not caring about much other than himself but being much more courageous than James. JM2K
James's bravery is non-existent in the series. For all we know they thrice defied Voldemort mainly because of Lily's talent and courage. Voldemort says something to Harry about his father fighting a noble battle. But, when we are shown what actually occurred (in DH), he was AK'd the second Voldemort walked in the door. How is that uncommonly brave?
wynnleaf - Sep 14, 2009 11:24 am (#1896 of 1982)
Calling a wwerewolf dark seems a tad harsh. The condition may be dark but the victim is not necessarily. (Steve)
Please remember that I'm not saying Remus, as a human, is Dark. It's the werewolf that's dark and JKR not only has this stated directly, but also shows specifically dark characteristics of wounds that won't heal and the curse that can't be removed.
Severus and James certainly had an instant dislike for each other. Later they seem to be rivals for Lily's affection. This is the only instance in which we see or hear of any enjoyment in harming others and it is told strictly, and selectively, from the viewpoint of one of the characters with a vested interest. (Steve)
We do know, via Lily, that they hexed people a lot. Unless it was all in self-defence then they must have been hexing people for fun. Peter, in the worst memory, is clearly watching in "avid anticipation". Since it's anticipation, we know he expects a confrontation, before it's even begun. Since his attention is "avid", we know he's particularly pleased with what's going to happen. In talking to each other, James gives alleviating Sirius' boredom as a reason to hex Snape. Even if there were other reasons for attacking Snape, it's hard to doubt that not only James, but also Sirius and Peter (neither of whom was in love with Lily), enjoyed what was going on. And as for hexing other students, if the Marauders didn't enjoy hexing other kids, why do it?
But I'm beginning to see your main point. The Marauders really should have examined themseves a bit more closely before taking up such a holier-than-thou attitude against the practitioners of the Dark Arts. (mona amon)
Exactly. It's the practically willful blindness to their own actions that I'm interested in here. Except that while they aren't ignorant of what they are doing, nor does it seem like consciously ignoring what they are doing. It's almost like they are unable to see their own actions for what they are.
Steve Newton - Sep 14, 2009 12:23 pm (#1897 of 1982)
As far as I can tell hexing people in passing is a general past time at Hogwarts. I can't imagine a bunch of students, muggle or magic, who are so well behaved as to not mess with their esteemed classmates.
"Please remember that I'm not saying Remus, as a human, is Dark."
I don't see a lot of difference. The disease is dark, certainly, but even as a werewolf Remus is still Remus.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 14, 2009 12:44 pm (#1898 of 1982)
IMO the difference is that Remus as "still Remus" would not bite and/or eat Harry, Ron and Hermione. But Remus the werewolf would. The lore of werewolves, vampires and even Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is to depict the Dark Side of human nature. Everyone has it, even kind gentle people like Remus, which is why JKR chose his character to be so, rather than a harsher personality like Sirius. Werewolves are indeed dark, no matter "who" they are when they are not turned.
wynnleaf - Sep 14, 2009 4:31 pm (#1899 of 1982)
Even Remus says that without wolfsbane he becomes a mindless dangerous beast.
wynnleaf - Sep 14, 2009 7:04 pm (#1900 of 1982)
The disease is dark, certainly, but even as a werewolf Remus is still Remus. (Steve)
Well, there's lots of things I don't necessarily agree with JKR about and certainly there may be other authors who write books and stories where werewolves are not considered Dark, but JKR does make it quite clear that in the world of HP, werewolves are Dark.
mona amon - Sep 15, 2009 12:51 am (#1901 of 1982)
As far as I can tell hexing people in passing is a general past time at Hogwarts. I can't imagine a bunch of students, muggle or magic, who are so well behaved as to not mess with their esteemed classmates. (Steve)
What bothers me about James is not so much the hexing as the 'enemy of the Dark' posture. Lupin and Sirius proclaim that he "always hated the Dark Arts" as if it was the one shining virtue that would justify all his behaviour, and all that time they were endangering the residents of Hogsmeade by letting a werewolf loose on them. Makes them all seem like a bunch of sanctimonious humbugs, IMO.
Julia H. - Sep 15, 2009 8:56 am (#1902 of 1982)
Interesting discussion.
Lupin, James Potter's friend, tells it to James Potter's son that in his seventh year at school, his father stopped hexing people just for the fun of it. That seems to mean James had indeed hexed people for fun, and it is asserted by a character who has always liked James. It is perfectly in accordance with Snape's Worst Memory, only making a certain character trait in James seem more general. To me, hexing (fashionable in a group or not) sounds like harming others.
Sirius also finds it amusing (as Lupin says) to send Snape after a werewolf. You may hate someone as much as you want, it does not mean in itself that you will actually find it amusing when that person is really seriously hurt or killed. You will enjoy it only when the ability to enjoy other people's suffering is in you somewhere. Add to this their being friends with Pettigrew, who quite openly enjoys watching others suffer.
Trusting a friend, despite his faults, is usually a good thing. In fact it may be part of the definition of what a friend is. (Steve)
Well, Snape seems to trust that whatever Mulciber did to Mary was "only a laugh", i.e., that nothing really bad happened. Yet, Lily makes it clear that he should not stick with friends like that, and she is right. I guess most readers will agree that it would have been morally better if Snape had turned his back on his Death Nibbler "friends", precisely because of their characters, rather than accepting them with their dark faults. James and Sirius find it OK that they have a friend who enjoys watching others suffer. They don't seem to find anything especially great about Pettigrew - they speak to him and about him (in his presence) rather condescendingly, and even when Sirius suggests that Peter should be the Secret Keeper, it is chiefly on the grounds that no one could guess that anyone in their right mind would trust Pettigrew with their lives. I don't see that they understand Pettigrew's character faults and try to like him despite them (the way perhaps Lily does in Snape's case). James and Sirius are the leaders of their group and I think they are perfectly OK with Pettigrew's apparent cruelty. My impression is that teenage James and Sirius accept Pettigrew as their friend because of his servile and admiring attitude toward them, and that is probably the only reason why they need him. Whatever James and Sirius do, Pettigrew can be counted on to applaud. But it also means that they do the kind of things that someone like Pettigrew can appreciate.
The Marauders' double-standard is really interesting. They do seem to think that "not being interested in Dark Magic" excuses everything else - and now Wynnleaf has pointed out that they got really close to using dark magic themselves (by creating a highly suspicious object and by regularly releasing a werewolf, albeit not with the intention of hurting someone), and Sirius actually tried once to use werewolf Lupin as a weapon specifically to hurt someone. Unfortunately, it also shows that not even Sirius can fully see Remus as still Remus in his werewolf form.
As for a specific werewolf (Remus) in his wolf shape being dark or not: Perhaps we can agree at least that a werewolf's bite is a dark phenomenon, and that is what the Marauders were risking when they released Remus, who should have stayed in the Shack (as a condition of his acceptance into the school). They were not only playing with Remus, they were playing with the possibility of someone getting bitten, i.e. with the possibility of a dark (even lethal) injury every month.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 15, 2009 9:32 am (#1903 of 1982)
mona, sanctimonious is the perfect word. I don't feel it is a fair parallel but I cannot help being reminded of Umbridge here.
But like I mentioned, Sirius is not really my issue because he would probably be the first to say, "yeah, I'm a Black. I come from bad stock. Doing my best to turn it around, though."
It's James who is the blind one. As far as Remus-the-werewolf being Dark, I'm sure we'd all agree that he is not at fault during his childhood. *Yes* he made a mistake by teaching at Hogwarts and putting students in danger, but I am referring to his time with James and Sirius. He was doing his best to deal with what he'd been dealt.
Sirius tried to use Remus as a dark weapon against someone he detested, and that is something Sirius would probably agree was Dark. As we saw in his conversation with Harry, he admitted he was an idiot back then and wasn't too fussed.
We don't know what James did to kids in the hallway (toenail-growing or worse?) but we do know he enjoyed torturing Severus. Was it in his nature or did Sirius bring out the worst in him? I think it might be the latter for the most part.
Madam Pince - Sep 15, 2009 11:36 am (#1904 of 1982)
Trusting a friend, despite his faults, is usually a good thing. In fact it may be part of the definition of what a friend is. --Steve
This is not the right thread for this really, but that's sort of the argument I had for Lily and Snape, back awhile ago when everyone was saying Lily was right for turning her back on Snape because he was hanging around with pre-DEs. I felt that a true friend might've tried just a bit harder to help him see the light, but... *shrugs* they were young and foolish, too -- both of them. I suppose all of them, really -- Sirius and James as well.
Was it in his nature or did Sirius bring out the worst in him? I think it might be the latter for the most part. --MAMS
When I was a basketball manager, there were two players who were good friends. One of them was what you might call a "bad seed" -- he wasn't a very nice person. The other was a "good guy" -- until, that is, he got around the first guy. When they were together, they sort of fed off each other and neither one of them was very nice. So I guess it's a common thing. I definitely think you've hit on something crucial in the James/Sirius relationship, MAMS.
My impression is that teenage James and Sirius accept Pettigrew as their friend because of his servile and admiring attitude toward them, and that is probably the only reason why they need him. Whatever James and Sirius do, Pettigrew can be counted on to applaud. --Julia
Agreed, Julia. Performers need an appreciative audience, and Wormtail was built for that.
This post and the following one are about the Marauders in general. I'm putting under Sirius' thread because he and James were the leaders of the Marauders and because it is from Sirius and Lupin that we "hear" most of the commentary about their activities and thoughts as teenagers.
In OOTP, Sirius tells Harry that James always hated the Dark Arts. In DH, Lily seems to comment to Severus that the difference between the bad behavior of Severus’ friends and the bad behavior of the Marauders is that Severus’ Slytherin friends use Dark magic. The Half Blood Prince’s notes in the Potions textbook are considered mostly great improvements on potions or fun hexes and jinxes until Harry discovers that Sectumsempra is a dark curse, at which point the HBP becomes highly questionable.
We are never told exactly what “dark magic” really is, however we are told that injuries from dark curses are very difficult to heal and that the worst dark curses, the unforgiveables, do not have a countercurse.
We know that young Severus had friends who used dark magic, used some dark curses himself (at least Sectumsempra), and may have invented that dark curse.
However, is it really true that the Marauders did not toy with dark magic?
Remus Lupin, as a human youth, is an average boy, albeit with some faults, and it is completely understandable that his friends would want to support him in his difficulties, but Remus is not always Remus and when he is not Remus, he is a Dark Creature. In Magical Beasts and Where to Find Them, JKR points out that the werewolves are Dark. What characteristics might make them “dark” rather than simply “magical”? What’s the difference in a “dark creature” and a magical one, such as a crup? The werewolf is, without Wolfsbane, a mindless and terrifying beast which has the capability of inflicting dark wounds, wounds which will never completely heal. Further, if the werewolf bites someone, the werewolf inflicts a curse upon that person which cannot be countered and which will never go away. Wounds that don’t heal, and curses that can’t be removed. That’s actually an even darker result than Sectumsempra, which only creates wounds which are difficult to heal, but does not inflict an unremovable curse which deeply affects the person for the rest of their life.
The Marauders knew that a werewolf was a dark creature and practically the embodiment of a dark curse. Dark creatures are taught in the DADA textbook for 3rd year, and there are questions about werewolves on the NEWT, so clearly detailed knowledge about werewolves is expected of students.
I imagine that James and Sirius would never even have considered that they were actually playing with the Dark. They would probably not ever have thought that they were subjecting all and sundry to the risk of a permanent dark curse, or permanent dark wounds. They knew it was dangerous, but probably didn't think of it as "Dark", but it was Dark nevertheless. I imagine that they could fill out the questions on werewolves in an exam to perfection and yet never even think about the fact that they were in fact playing with Dark magic every single month. And yet they were. It’s just that, because their friend was involved, they considered it all in good fun. I’m sure they thought they could “handle it” and control the Dark characteristics of the werewolf. And because Lupin was their friend and it was all in fun, and they thought they could handle it, they’d feel it was all okay.
Readers generally agree with Lily that it’s wrong for Snape to see his friend’s use of a dark magic “joke” on Mary MacDonald as humorous. But Sirius’ “prank” on Snape was essentially using the fear and danger of a dark cursed creature on Snape, making his “joke” probably even more dark than the one played on Mary.
wynnleaf - Sep 12, 2009 7:42 am (#1875 of 1982)
And then there’s the Marauder’s Map.
In HBP, Snape called Sectumsempra “dark”, and for the most part, we readers immediately believed Snape was telling us the exact truth. Sectumsempra was Dark. In DH, we learned that, being Dark, Sectumsempra’s wounds were very difficult to heal and that George’s ear couldn’t be grown back, so Snape’s comment is confirmed.
In POA Snape takes a piece of magical parchment from Harry and proclaims it dark as well. But because we know it was created by the Marauders who considered themselves opposed to dark magic, readers assume the Map is fine. Still, the parchment seems to have a mind of it’s own with no place to put its “brain”. Arthur Weasley tells Ginny that this is something of which to be very wary. Lupin confirms that the characters in the Map might want to influence Harry toward bad behavior. And even JKR commented that Fred and George would have been possibly helped to discover the workings of the Map by the very “persons” within it. While Snape may have been speaking without enough evidence, we are shown further evidence of the Map’s questionable characteristics.
The Map was created, not for the more altruistic and sometimes noble purposes of Harry – protecting others, catching bad guys – but very specifically for “no good”. It was created to break rules, by a group of boys rather well known for hexing other kids and breaking rules. What did they use it for? Of course, probably similar things as Fred and George, like getting to the kitchens or Honeydukes. Boys who regularly hexed other kids, and especially with an ongoing “war” with Snape, would find it easily used for surprise attacks on others. And then there’s the spying use. What boy (other than Harry who is preoccupied with other things) could resist? A snicker and wink and, “Look, Bob and Mary are alone in the broom closet again!” Of course, none of this makes it specifically “dark”, except perhaps for that unfortunate Vow. “I solemnly swear I am up to no good.” A wizard, holding a wand, making a solemn vow for wrongdoing, while using a magical item specifically created to enable wrongdoing, which is somehow enchanted with magical personal intent, mirroring the creators, who will encourage others to follow suit.
Perhaps this isn’t actually Dark, but it is certainly highly questionable. This is the kind of stuff that Arthur felt should have warned Ginny off of the Diary. What makes it “just in fun” or only “a laugh?” The intent of the makers? And what was one of their intentions in using the Map? To sneak out following the revealed secret passageways and release a creature bearing a Dark Curse on the local population.
Of course, I’m quite convinced that James and Sirius never considered themselves to be toying with or playing with Dark magic. And yet we know that they did just that on a monthly basis when they released the werewolf. And they may have done it in creating the Map.
And then there’s the friends. We learn, through Lily, that part of young Severus’ problem is that he was hanging out with the wrong sort of friends, the sort of friends who would one day become Death Eaters. Of course, Severus should, as far as we can tell, have been aware that his friends were interested in becoming Death Eaters. At least, Lily implies this. Still, one cannot judge one’s friends solely by the label. Surely one should be able to tell something about them as a person, rather than having to rely on whether they proclaim an interest in joining the current Hate Group.
And did James, Sirius and Remus have a friend who was the sort to become a Death Eater? Well, yes, they had just such a nasty friend as well. Their friend Peter didn’t just suddenly morph overnight into a person willing to betray his friends to their deaths and kill a dozen other people. No, even at 15 he watched Sirius and James persecute another student, practically salivating with glee with the thrill of watching it. Sirius commented later in POA that Peter was the sort to gravitate to the biggest bully in the playground. And the fascinating thing about Peter is that it was not the rest of the Marauders who were so interested in and attracted to hanging out with Peter, but instead it was Peter who was very interested in and attracted to the idea of hanging out with them. Was it their wholesome fun loving nature that appealed to Peter? Or did he like the edginess of running with a Dark creature, or being “in” on the opportunities to hex other kids in the safety of a group?
Am I saying the Marauders were just as bad as the Slytherins that were bent on joining LV?
Absolutely not! I don’t for a minute think James and Sirius ever considered that they personally enjoyed their own fun with Darkness. And they would never have espoused the sort of hating of muggleborns that Lily saw in many kids in Slytherin.
However, I do think they lived a huge double standard. They were probably not particular self-reflective, and James appears too generally pleased with himself to ever consider how close some of his own faults were to some of the Death Eaters-in-training in Slytherin. Sirius and James certainly never considered their monthly excursions adventures with Dark magic, but that’s exactly what they were doing. They claimed to oppose dark magic, all the while blind to the fun they were having with it.
There are some big distinctions – most especially the attitudes toward muggleborns. Still, I think that the Marauders and perhaps Gryffindor in general, were a little to self-satisfied to realize just how often they reflected little better behavior or proclivities than some of the behavior which they would have decried in their “enemies” in the opposing House.
Madam Pince - Sep 12, 2009 8:06 am (#1876 of 1982)
*applauds*
Excellent essay, wynnleaf.
Orion - Sep 13, 2009 10:36 am (#1877 of 1982)
Yes, the difference between the Diary and the Map has always bothered me as well. You can't see where the two little blighters keep their brains, that makes them Dark Objects, IMO. And it also bothers me that Sirius not only made fun of Snape in the Prank, but also of Remus, treating him like a monster and using him as a monster. Haha, I know where the monster is and I lure a jerk down the tunnel to the monster. Hey, the monster is your friend, you jerk. It's mindless and inhuman. Basically, when young Sirius is friendly to human-shaped Remus, he's lying through his teeth. Or he has a huge compartmentalisation (spelling???) problem.
Steve Newton - Sep 13, 2009 11:00 am (#1878 of 1982)
I don't understand why you think that if you can't see where the two little blighters keep their brains, that makes them Dark Objects.
On the other hand I do think that Sirius was a bit of a whack job.
Solitaire - Sep 13, 2009 3:11 pm (#1879 of 1982)
On the other hand I do think that Sirius was a bit of a whack job.
Is it possible that he was just reactionary to his Dark Wizard family background? Growing up in that house when his parents were still alive must have been more hellish than living in it during the time frame covered in OotP. Could that have contributed to his hatred of the Dark-leaning Snape? Is it possible that James and Sirius saw themselves as some youthful (and stupid, as we now know) avengers against Dark Wizards? We know James always hated Dark Wizards. So, probably, did Sirius, based on his own home life. Lots of times people try to do the right thing, but they do it for the wrong reasons ... or they do it badly.
To be sure, Sirius did use Remus, and that was not the action of a friend. Had Snape been killed or even bitten, Remus would have surely been "kissed." Who do you suppose told James about "the Prank"? Peter? Lily? Did Snape let just enough info fall that Lily was able to figure out part of what was going on and alert James? Is that how she found out about the whole thing?
About the Map and the Diary ... I guess I see them as quite different, considering one has a piece of Voldy's soul in it and is trying to kill Ginny.
Orion - Sep 13, 2009 3:27 pm (#1880 of 1982)
It's what Arthur says to Ginny. If you can't see where it keeps its brain, don't touch it, don't communicate with it, it's highly dangerous. But it's correct that he never says that it's a qualification for being a Dark Object. The big front doors can even be taught to recognize pictures of Sirius without being Dark Objects. My fault, my misunderstanding.
wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2009 3:39 pm (#1881 of 1982)
We don't have much direct evidence that the Map is dark. The only direct comment we have about the map being dark is Snape's assessment, and all he had to go on (as far as we know), is that it was thinking for itself. We know that Arthur considered such an object highly dangerous although he did not say that made an object dark.
But where I might have once assumed that James and Sirius, and the rest of the Marauders, wouldn't have played around with dark magic, it has now occurred to me that we know of circumstances where they did play -- literally -- with dark magic on a regular basis and apparently considered it a lark and quite okay because they assumed they could control a very dark magical beast, who could inflict wounds that wouldn't heal and a curse that couldn't be broken. This makes it much easier for me to think that Sirius and James could have created a dark object without ever thinking about whether or not it was dark.
After all, assuming Snape was the creator of Sectumsempra, a bright student can create something that is "dark". As an adult Snape knew that Sectumsempra was dark magic. Could the Marauders have created a dark object without ever reflecting on aspects of it that could make it Dark? Yes, of course they could. Even as adults, Sirius truly and sincerely believes that James hated all things Dark, without even being considering that they were setting the embodiment of a Dark curse loose on the countryside every month.
Excellent essay, wynnleaf. (Madam Pince)
Thanks!
Solitaire - Sep 13, 2009 7:01 pm (#1882 of 1982)
it has now occurred to me that we know of circumstances where they did play -- literally -- with dark magic on a regular basis and apparently considered it a lark
Did they consider it a lark? I think that's stretching the meaning of what Lupin and Sirius said rather a lot ... and, yes, I realize that is only my opinion. I do think they realized how dangerous what they were doing was--even Lupin admits they had close calls--but I believe they did it to try and protect Lupin from the harm he did himself as well as to prevent him from doing harm to others. I figure this probably stems from the typical teenager's belief that he is invincible ... that nothing bad can happen to him. Lupin himself says something like "... under their influence, I became less dangerous, my mind less wolfish." (I apologize that I do not have the direct quote, but my books are still packed away.) If he had close calls with them, what would have happened without them? By the time of the prank, it seems Lupin is a fully-grown Werewolf. Perhaps he was capable of leaving the Shack on his own by this time ... and perhaps their presence was critical.
Just my opinions.
wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2009 7:20 pm (#1883 of 1982)
Here's a few comments from POA where Lupin describes why the rest of the Marauders transformed, and then why they left the Shack on larks. Larks, by the way, are defined as "a source of or quest for amusement or adventure", Miriam Webster Dictionary/
They could each turn into a different animal at will.’
‘But how did that help you?’ said Hermione, sounding puzzled.
‘They couldn’t keep me company as humans, so they kept me company as animals,’ said Lupin. ‘A werewolf is only a danger to people. They sneaked out of the castle every month under James’s Invisibility Cloak. They transformed ... Peter, as the smallest, could slip beneath the Willow’s attacking branches and touch the knot that freezes it. They would then slip down the tunnel and join me. Under their influence, I became less dangerous. My body was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so while I was with them.’
... well, highly exciting possibilities were open to us now we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night. Sirius and James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check. I doubt whether any Hogwarts students ever found out more about the Hogwarts grounds and Hogsmeade than we did ... And that’s how we came to write the Marauder’s Map, and sign it with our nicknames. Sirius is Padfoot. Peter is Wormtail. James was Prongs.’
‘What sort of animal –?’ Harry began, but Hermione cut across him.
‘That was still really dangerous! Running around in the dark with a werewolf! What if you’d given the others the slip, and bitten somebody?’
‘A thought that still haunts me,’ said Lupin heavily. ‘And there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards. We were young, thoughtless – carried away with our own cleverness.’
‘I sometimes felt guilty about betraying Dumbledore’s trust, of course ... he had admitted me to Hogwarts when no other headmaster would have done so, and he had no idea I was breaking the rules he had set down for my own and others’ safety. He never knew I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally. But I always managed to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan our next month’s adventure.
Things to note.
1. When the Marauders became animagi and joined Lupin, they didn't automatically leave the Shack. That happened a bit later. So we know that simply becoming animagi in order to hang out with Lupin did not necessitate leaving the Shack.
2. They were tempted to leave the Shack due to the "exciting possibilities" and considered their monthly jaunts to be "our next month's adventure". That's pretty much the definition of a "lark".
3. While the animigi were able to keep the Dark werewolf somewhat in check, that did not stop there being "near misses, many of them". So clearly it wasn't really all that safe, or Lupin wouldn't speak "heavily" of it later, or consider, as an adult, their actions as "thoughtless" and carried away by their own cleverness.
4. The Map was created specifically in order to help them in their quest to have adventures after becoming animagi and going out with a werewolf every month.
5. Dumbledore set down the rules about staying the Shrieking Shack for the safety of Lupin and everyone else and had no idea that Lupin was no longer staying the Shack every month. We don't know what sort of spells or other protections DD had placed on the Shack, but he obviously thought the werewolf would stay in the Shack, not run around the school grounds and the village every month.
In any case, as far as my essay goes, my primary point was that the Marauders knew that a werewolf was a dark creature, able to inflict dark wounds that won't heal, and able to pass along a curse that could never be lifted, yet the Maruaders never seemed to think of what they did as having anything to do with Dark magic. They played with dark magic every month and risked dark wounds or dark curses on other innocent people and never thought about it as anything do to with Darkness.
Solitaire - Sep 13, 2009 7:56 pm (#1884 of 1982)
the Maruaders never seemed to think of what they did as having anything to do with Dark magic. They played with dark magic every month and risked dark wounds or dark curses on other innocent people and never thought about it as anything do to with Darkness.
I guess the difference, for me, must be intent. Because the Marauders were not Dark Wizards and had no intent of harming anyone (Okay, Sirius was the exception in this one incident.), they didn't think what they were doing was Dark Magic. Then again, neither do I. Death Nibblers, on the other hand, knew what they were doing was Dark ... and that is why they did it.
wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2009 8:16 pm (#1885 of 1982)
Death Nibblers, on the other hand, knew what they were doing was Dark ... and that is why they did it. (Solitaire)
I don't think we know that the Death Eater in training kids did Dark magic because it was dark, or for other intentions. We know that young Snape had Sectumsempra "for enemies", but have no indication that he chose or created that specific spell because it was dark, or just because he felt it was a spell that would work against enemies, with no more interest in whether or not there was a Dark aspect than Ginny might have in using her bat bogey curse. Or, for instance, since we have no indication of the intent of the spell used on Mary McDonald, or even what the spell did, we have no reason to believe that the caster did it just because he wanted to use a dark spell. Perhaps he wanted to play a malicious joke (and Sirius' "prank" was certainly also malicious), and simply chose whatever magic came to mind and it happened to be dark -- as did Sirius, even though Sirius certainly never considered that he was making use of a dark cursed creature for his "joke".
In other words, the Death-Eater-in-training kids might have chosen spells without consideration for whether or not they were dark, simply wanting whatever would get the result they wanted. That's, of course, wrong, since any student should have been consciously choosing to avoid dark magic, and the future DE kids wouldn't have cared if a spell was dark - it might have added to the interest in using it. The Marauders thought that they were consciously choosing to avoid dark magic, but in fact they consciously chose to engage in activities with what they knew to be Dark, but they disregarded the darkness to such a strong extent that even as adults they didn't realize what they'd done.
"Didn't realize what they'd done" isn't quite the right way to phrase it. It makes it sound like the Marauders never knew they were playing with such Darkness. They did know what a werewolf was. For whatever reasons, they never acknowledged it, even to themselves. It's like a sort of willful blindness.
Solitaire - Sep 13, 2009 9:01 pm (#1886 of 1982)
I personally believe DNs were coached by their families and pretty well knew what they were doing. I think they did know that the magic they were doing was Dark Magic. They'd have to be pretty stupid not to know, as they'd been taking DADA since arriving at Hogwarts. I believe there was intent to hurt on the part of the DNs. Snape claims they were just having fun. Perhaps hurting people was fun for them. On the other hand, I do not think--with the exception of Sirius's prank--that the Marauders intended to hurt anyone. Since Dumbledore obviously knew about the prank and must have questioned all concerned very closely, he must have been satisfied that the Marauders generally did not mean to harm. I'm sure Snape gave him all of his "ammo," too, so I'm supposing he heard both sides.
mona amon - Sep 13, 2009 9:05 pm (#1887 of 1982)
However, I do think they lived a huge double standard. They were probably not particular self-reflective, and James appears too generally pleased with himself to ever consider how close some of his own faults were to some of the Death Eaters-in-training in Slytherin. Sirius and James certainly never considered their monthly excursions adventures with Dark magic, but that’s exactly what they were doing. They claimed to oppose dark magic, all the while blind to the fun they were having with it. (Wynnleaf)
As Soli says above, the difference is intent. The fun, for the Marauders, lay in breaking curfew, breaking bounds, and roaming the village at night. The fun did not lie in getting the werewolf to harm people. But in the case of Severus's friends, the fun did lie in causing harm to Mary McDonald with their dark magic.
Of course, what the Marauders did was very wrong. If the werewolf had gotten away from them and bitten someone, they might just as well have deliberately set it loose on him for all the difference it makes to the victim.
And it also bothers me that Sirius not only made fun of Snape in the Prank, but also of Remus, treating him like a monster and using him as a monster. Haha, I know where the monster is and I lure a jerk down the tunnel to the monster. Hey, the monster is your friend, you jerk. It's mindless and inhuman. Basically, when young Sirius is friendly to human-shaped Remus, he's lying through his teeth. (Orion)
On the other hand I do think that Sirius was a bit of a whack job. (Steve)
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I fail to understand Sirius's mentality.
We don't have much direct evidence that the Map is dark. The only direct comment we have about the map being dark is Snape's assessment, and all he had to go on (as far as we know), is that it was thinking for itself. We know that Arthur considered such an object highly dangerous although he did not say that made an object dark. (Wynnleaf)
Severus called it dark because he was hopping mad about the way it had insulted him. I don't think we're meant to take his words seriously. I interpret Arthur's words as "when an object can think for itself, don't fool around with it unless you understand what it can do."
In short, I do not think the Marauders Map was a dark object. And I do not consider roaming the countryside with a werewolf as "playing with Dark Magic", though it might be just as bad. I do think that Sirius's prank falls into the 'using dark magic to harm' category. It never occured to me before, so thanks for pointing that out, Wynnleaf.
The Dark Magic question seems to have been important to the Marauders, Lily and Severus. There's a certain obsession about what's dark and what's not. But I don't think the author intended the reader to look at it that way. The way she has presented it, IMO, we are supposed to judge each action on its own merits, and not on whether it's dark magic or not.
EDIT: cross-posted with the last two posts.
wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2009 9:23 pm (#1888 of 1982)
I think they did know that the magic they were doing was Dark Magic. They'd have to be pretty stupid not to know, as they'd been taking DADA since arriving at Hogwarts. (Solitaire)
Yes, I completely agree. Ditto the Marauders and a werewolf. They also realized that a werewolf was Dark, produced Dark wounds, and spread a Dark curse for which there was no countercurse.
The future DE kids probably didn't mind consciously using a dark curse. The Marauders chose to disregard their use of the Dark.
I believe there was intent to hurt on the part of the DNs. Snape claims they were just having fun. Perhaps hurting people was fun for them. (Solitaire)
I'm assuming you're talking about the spell used on Mary. Problem is, we don't know that it hurt her. Lily's complaint was primarily that it was dark, not that Mary was ultimately much harmed, or even if she was harmed at all.
Did the Marauders enjoying harming others? The Worst Memory incident begins primarily because Sirius is bored and Peter certainly seems to be having a good time. They aren't using Dark magic at that moment, but they are clearly enjoying themselves while harming another person.
While intent is important, I think there are varying aspects to intent. Lack of malicious intent is not the same as ignorance. If the Marauders had been completely ignorant of a werewolf's dark aspects that would be one thing. But they weren't. The very reason they knew they needed animagi forms was because they knew the deadly dark nature of the beast and they knew being around the werewolf brought the threat of a dark curse. They didn't intend to bring harm to others, but they, like the future DE kids, would have been stupid not to know that the werewolf they released each month could pose a huge threat of darkness to others.
There's a certain obsession about what's dark and what's not. But I don't think the author intended the reader to look at it that way. (mona amon)
It was JKR herself who, in Magical Beast and Where to Find Them, as well as in POA, specifically states that the werewolf is Dark, specifically states in HBP that the werewolf inflicts dark wounds which don't completely heal, and tells us that the werewolf curse cannot be taken away. The fact that she also has the Marauders having a great time releasing this and actually playing with it, having adventures and so forth, is setting up a situation where the Marauders have fun with the embodiment of a Dark curse. Did she do it on purpose? Well, maybe she didn't think of it all that much, but she certainly made sure we learned all about werewolves being dark and the dark threat they presented.
As for the map:
Severus called it dark because he was hopping mad about the way it had insulted him. I don't think we're meant to take his words seriously. (mona amon)
We are never told why he called it dark.
Here's what Arthur said about the Diary -- and remember, he didn't know it was a horcrux.
Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can’t see where it keeps its brain. Why didn’t you show the diary to me, or your mother? A suspicious object like that, it was clearly full of dark magic!’
According to Arthur then, the very things that made it suspicious - thinking for itself when you can't see where it keeps its brain -- makes it "a suspicious object" that was "clearly full of dark magic". Since that's exactly what Snape would have seen in the piece of parchment when he took it from Harry, his statement that it was Dark makes a lot of sense, even if he was possibly wrong. In fact, Snape says virtually the same thing as Arthur. "This parchment is plainly full of Dark Magic."
Madam Pince - Sep 14, 2009 2:58 am (#1889 of 1982)
While intent is important, I think there are varying aspects to intent. Lack of malicious intent is not the same as ignorance. If the Marauders had been completely ignorant of a werewolf's dark aspects that would be one thing. But they weren't. The very reason they knew they needed animagi forms was because they knew the deadly dark nature of the beast and they knew being around the werewolf brought the threat of a dark curse. They didn't intend to bring harm to others, but they, like the future DE kids, would have been stupid not to know that the werewolf they released each month could pose a huge threat of darkness to others. --wynnleaf
Exactly. Take, for example, the issue of drunk driving. How many innocent people have been killed by people who "didn't mean to hurt anyone," yet, like the Marauders, surely should've known that such a result could've come about as a result of their choices? That they didn't "intend" it does not diminish the results. We put people in jail for that every day, as well we should. In my opinion, intent doesn't enter into it (short of complete ignorance, as wynnleaf says.) Hurting someone because you enjoy the fun of watching someone get hurt, and hurting someone because you're too busy having fun to consider the possibility that someone else might get hurt have the same results -- someone gets hurt. Perhaps just natural human feelings might make some "dislike" the former a lot more, but as far as guilt and/or punishment goes, they should both be treated equally, in my opinion.
wynnleaf - Sep 14, 2009 5:42 am (#1890 of 1982)
I am not at all meaning to say or imply that the kids who wanted to become Death Eaters were no worse than the Marauders. Intent does count for something. The person who kills someone while driving drunk will be prosecuted, but not for the same level of murder as a person who plans out and intentionally murders someone. Nevertheless, lack of bad intent does not absolve, especially when one knows what the consequences could be.
Still, that's not what I'm trying to get at with the Marauders. We all know they were reckless and disregarded the dangers of running around with a werewolf because they wanted to support Lupin and have fun adventures and were thoughtless teenagers.
What I am focusing on is their double standard, which they apparently never saw, even when Lupin and Sirius were adults. They knew that the werewolf was dark, knew it could inflict dark wounds and dark curses, and yet played with that darkness every month and never acknowledged the darkness.
The Marauders opposed dark magic, yet created the Marauder's Map which at the very least should have sent up warning flags in their minds (at least, if you agree with Arthur), that they might be creating a dark object.
Sirius and Lily see it as a negative against Snape's character that he had friends who wanted to be and later became Death Eaters. But they never saw it as a negative in the Marauder's characters that they had a good friend who was also Death Eater material and were unable to see Peter's glee in seeing the harming of others, his desire to gravitate to the biggest bully -- the very things that led him into LV's service -- as indicative of a very bad character.
Why did they never, even as adults, see the dark aspects of their interests? I believe it's because, like many people in real life, they were too convinced that being on the right, the "good" side, made any of their actions okay, or at least, not so bad. They would never have considered their own actions as indicative of interest in dark things. It's like assuming that what you're doing can't possibly be all that bad because it's you doing it and you aren't a bad person. Kind of like, "We're opposed to dark magic, therefore whatever we get involved with couldn't possibly be dark, because it's us doing it."
mona amon - Sep 14, 2009 9:23 am (#1891 of 1982)
Did the Marauders enjoying harming others? (Wynnleaf)
I'd say yes, they certainly did, and that's why I can't stand them.
There's a certain obsession about what's dark and what's not. But I don't think the author intended the reader to look at it that way. (mona amon)
It was JKR herself who, in Magical Beast and Where to Find Them, as well as in POA, specifically states that the werewolf is Dark,...[cut]...(Wynnleaf)
What I mean is, I don't think JKR intended us to share the Marauders' and Lily's obsession with what's dark and what's not. We are supposed to judge every action by its consequences, IMO, and not by its label. But I forget why I mentioned this.
Still, that's not what I'm trying to get at with the Marauders. We all know they were reckless and disregarded the dangers of running around with a werewolf because they wanted to support Lupin and have fun adventures and were thoughtless teenagers.
What I am focusing on is their double standard, which they apparently never saw, even when Lupin and Sirius were adults. They knew that the werewolf was dark, knew it could inflict dark wounds and dark curses, and yet played with that darkness every month and never acknowledged the darkness.
Okay, you've convinced me. (For once! )
I still don't agree about the Marauders Map being dark, just because it can think. That would make the Sorting Hat and all portraits dark objects. But I'm beginning to see your main point. The Marauders really should have examined themseves a bit more closely before taking up such a holier-than-thou attitude against the practitioners of the Dark Arts.
(Editted)
Steve Newton - Sep 14, 2009 9:58 am (#1892 of 1982)
Calling a wwerewolf dark seems a tad harsh. The condition may be dark but the victim is not necessarily.
"hey had a good friend who was also Death Eater material and were unable to see Peter's glee in seeing the harming of others, his desire to gravitate to the biggest bully" I'm not sure how this is relevant. Trusting a friend, despite his faults, is usually a good thing. In fact it may be part of the definition of what a friend is.
"Did the Marauders enjoying harming others? (Wynnleaf)
I'd say yes, they certainly did, and that's why I can't stand them."
Severus and James certainly had an instant dislike for each other. Later they seem to be rivals for Lily's affection. This is the only instance in which we see or hear of any enjoyment in harming others and it is told strictly, and selectively, from the viewpoint of one of the characters with a vested interest.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 14, 2009 10:33 am (#1893 of 1982)
Steve, I know what you mean about your werewolf comment, but unfortunately, like a vampire who has been bitten and doomed, they are still stuck with the stigma.
Regarding what we are told about the rivalry, a Pensieve memory is not considered a "viewpoint of one of the characters with a vested interest". Additionally, that it is viewed by Harry, who is vested in hating Severus, and he comes out feeling sympathetic towards Severus, is really saying something IMO.
Steve Newton - Sep 14, 2009 10:36 am (#1894 of 1982)
Indeed, the penseive memory is real but it was hand selected by one of the parties. Sorry for the unclear writing.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 14, 2009 10:51 am (#1895 of 1982)
No problem, Steve. My real point is that JKR was the actual person who hand selected the information. So on one hand, we are left to decide for ourselves what has been "left out", and on the other hand we might feel she gave us everything needed to make an assessment, or at least understand *her* point.
IMO the bottom line with this debate is the hypocrisy factor that JKR has wedged into this series. Everyone has it, and it is much easier to see the fault in others' "good intentions" than to see it in your own rationalizations of your behavior. Sometimes those with "good intentions" are the ones to look out for, dishing out suggestions for everyone else's "best interest". You know that old saying, what the road to hell is paved with... I am absolutely sure that Sirius had more of a cavalier attitude about his "darkish" behavior than James, which makes James that much more irritating for me. His hypocrisy level is through the roof, on par with Severus. Sirius, IMO, is a Black and has inbred tendencies that he has either chosen to go against or naturally sees the fault in but cannot help falling into now and again.
But for me it is all about hypocrisy and how to reflect on your own actions in order to grow as a person. We have Severus doing some reflection regarding Lily and it pretty much stops with that. We have James *possibly* reflecting with trying to alert Severus about the Prank, and we have Sirius not caring about much other than himself but being much more courageous than James. JM2K
James's bravery is non-existent in the series. For all we know they thrice defied Voldemort mainly because of Lily's talent and courage. Voldemort says something to Harry about his father fighting a noble battle. But, when we are shown what actually occurred (in DH), he was AK'd the second Voldemort walked in the door. How is that uncommonly brave?
wynnleaf - Sep 14, 2009 11:24 am (#1896 of 1982)
Calling a wwerewolf dark seems a tad harsh. The condition may be dark but the victim is not necessarily. (Steve)
Please remember that I'm not saying Remus, as a human, is Dark. It's the werewolf that's dark and JKR not only has this stated directly, but also shows specifically dark characteristics of wounds that won't heal and the curse that can't be removed.
Severus and James certainly had an instant dislike for each other. Later they seem to be rivals for Lily's affection. This is the only instance in which we see or hear of any enjoyment in harming others and it is told strictly, and selectively, from the viewpoint of one of the characters with a vested interest. (Steve)
We do know, via Lily, that they hexed people a lot. Unless it was all in self-defence then they must have been hexing people for fun. Peter, in the worst memory, is clearly watching in "avid anticipation". Since it's anticipation, we know he expects a confrontation, before it's even begun. Since his attention is "avid", we know he's particularly pleased with what's going to happen. In talking to each other, James gives alleviating Sirius' boredom as a reason to hex Snape. Even if there were other reasons for attacking Snape, it's hard to doubt that not only James, but also Sirius and Peter (neither of whom was in love with Lily), enjoyed what was going on. And as for hexing other students, if the Marauders didn't enjoy hexing other kids, why do it?
But I'm beginning to see your main point. The Marauders really should have examined themseves a bit more closely before taking up such a holier-than-thou attitude against the practitioners of the Dark Arts. (mona amon)
Exactly. It's the practically willful blindness to their own actions that I'm interested in here. Except that while they aren't ignorant of what they are doing, nor does it seem like consciously ignoring what they are doing. It's almost like they are unable to see their own actions for what they are.
Steve Newton - Sep 14, 2009 12:23 pm (#1897 of 1982)
As far as I can tell hexing people in passing is a general past time at Hogwarts. I can't imagine a bunch of students, muggle or magic, who are so well behaved as to not mess with their esteemed classmates.
"Please remember that I'm not saying Remus, as a human, is Dark."
I don't see a lot of difference. The disease is dark, certainly, but even as a werewolf Remus is still Remus.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 14, 2009 12:44 pm (#1898 of 1982)
IMO the difference is that Remus as "still Remus" would not bite and/or eat Harry, Ron and Hermione. But Remus the werewolf would. The lore of werewolves, vampires and even Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is to depict the Dark Side of human nature. Everyone has it, even kind gentle people like Remus, which is why JKR chose his character to be so, rather than a harsher personality like Sirius. Werewolves are indeed dark, no matter "who" they are when they are not turned.
wynnleaf - Sep 14, 2009 4:31 pm (#1899 of 1982)
Even Remus says that without wolfsbane he becomes a mindless dangerous beast.
wynnleaf - Sep 14, 2009 7:04 pm (#1900 of 1982)
The disease is dark, certainly, but even as a werewolf Remus is still Remus. (Steve)
Well, there's lots of things I don't necessarily agree with JKR about and certainly there may be other authors who write books and stories where werewolves are not considered Dark, but JKR does make it quite clear that in the world of HP, werewolves are Dark.
mona amon - Sep 15, 2009 12:51 am (#1901 of 1982)
As far as I can tell hexing people in passing is a general past time at Hogwarts. I can't imagine a bunch of students, muggle or magic, who are so well behaved as to not mess with their esteemed classmates. (Steve)
What bothers me about James is not so much the hexing as the 'enemy of the Dark' posture. Lupin and Sirius proclaim that he "always hated the Dark Arts" as if it was the one shining virtue that would justify all his behaviour, and all that time they were endangering the residents of Hogsmeade by letting a werewolf loose on them. Makes them all seem like a bunch of sanctimonious humbugs, IMO.
Julia H. - Sep 15, 2009 8:56 am (#1902 of 1982)
Interesting discussion.
Lupin, James Potter's friend, tells it to James Potter's son that in his seventh year at school, his father stopped hexing people just for the fun of it. That seems to mean James had indeed hexed people for fun, and it is asserted by a character who has always liked James. It is perfectly in accordance with Snape's Worst Memory, only making a certain character trait in James seem more general. To me, hexing (fashionable in a group or not) sounds like harming others.
Sirius also finds it amusing (as Lupin says) to send Snape after a werewolf. You may hate someone as much as you want, it does not mean in itself that you will actually find it amusing when that person is really seriously hurt or killed. You will enjoy it only when the ability to enjoy other people's suffering is in you somewhere. Add to this their being friends with Pettigrew, who quite openly enjoys watching others suffer.
Trusting a friend, despite his faults, is usually a good thing. In fact it may be part of the definition of what a friend is. (Steve)
Well, Snape seems to trust that whatever Mulciber did to Mary was "only a laugh", i.e., that nothing really bad happened. Yet, Lily makes it clear that he should not stick with friends like that, and she is right. I guess most readers will agree that it would have been morally better if Snape had turned his back on his Death Nibbler "friends", precisely because of their characters, rather than accepting them with their dark faults. James and Sirius find it OK that they have a friend who enjoys watching others suffer. They don't seem to find anything especially great about Pettigrew - they speak to him and about him (in his presence) rather condescendingly, and even when Sirius suggests that Peter should be the Secret Keeper, it is chiefly on the grounds that no one could guess that anyone in their right mind would trust Pettigrew with their lives. I don't see that they understand Pettigrew's character faults and try to like him despite them (the way perhaps Lily does in Snape's case). James and Sirius are the leaders of their group and I think they are perfectly OK with Pettigrew's apparent cruelty. My impression is that teenage James and Sirius accept Pettigrew as their friend because of his servile and admiring attitude toward them, and that is probably the only reason why they need him. Whatever James and Sirius do, Pettigrew can be counted on to applaud. But it also means that they do the kind of things that someone like Pettigrew can appreciate.
The Marauders' double-standard is really interesting. They do seem to think that "not being interested in Dark Magic" excuses everything else - and now Wynnleaf has pointed out that they got really close to using dark magic themselves (by creating a highly suspicious object and by regularly releasing a werewolf, albeit not with the intention of hurting someone), and Sirius actually tried once to use werewolf Lupin as a weapon specifically to hurt someone. Unfortunately, it also shows that not even Sirius can fully see Remus as still Remus in his werewolf form.
As for a specific werewolf (Remus) in his wolf shape being dark or not: Perhaps we can agree at least that a werewolf's bite is a dark phenomenon, and that is what the Marauders were risking when they released Remus, who should have stayed in the Shack (as a condition of his acceptance into the school). They were not only playing with Remus, they were playing with the possibility of someone getting bitten, i.e. with the possibility of a dark (even lethal) injury every month.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 15, 2009 9:32 am (#1903 of 1982)
mona, sanctimonious is the perfect word. I don't feel it is a fair parallel but I cannot help being reminded of Umbridge here.
But like I mentioned, Sirius is not really my issue because he would probably be the first to say, "yeah, I'm a Black. I come from bad stock. Doing my best to turn it around, though."
It's James who is the blind one. As far as Remus-the-werewolf being Dark, I'm sure we'd all agree that he is not at fault during his childhood. *Yes* he made a mistake by teaching at Hogwarts and putting students in danger, but I am referring to his time with James and Sirius. He was doing his best to deal with what he'd been dealt.
Sirius tried to use Remus as a dark weapon against someone he detested, and that is something Sirius would probably agree was Dark. As we saw in his conversation with Harry, he admitted he was an idiot back then and wasn't too fussed.
We don't know what James did to kids in the hallway (toenail-growing or worse?) but we do know he enjoyed torturing Severus. Was it in his nature or did Sirius bring out the worst in him? I think it might be the latter for the most part.
Madam Pince - Sep 15, 2009 11:36 am (#1904 of 1982)
Trusting a friend, despite his faults, is usually a good thing. In fact it may be part of the definition of what a friend is. --Steve
This is not the right thread for this really, but that's sort of the argument I had for Lily and Snape, back awhile ago when everyone was saying Lily was right for turning her back on Snape because he was hanging around with pre-DEs. I felt that a true friend might've tried just a bit harder to help him see the light, but... *shrugs* they were young and foolish, too -- both of them. I suppose all of them, really -- Sirius and James as well.
Was it in his nature or did Sirius bring out the worst in him? I think it might be the latter for the most part. --MAMS
When I was a basketball manager, there were two players who were good friends. One of them was what you might call a "bad seed" -- he wasn't a very nice person. The other was a "good guy" -- until, that is, he got around the first guy. When they were together, they sort of fed off each other and neither one of them was very nice. So I guess it's a common thing. I definitely think you've hit on something crucial in the James/Sirius relationship, MAMS.
My impression is that teenage James and Sirius accept Pettigrew as their friend because of his servile and admiring attitude toward them, and that is probably the only reason why they need him. Whatever James and Sirius do, Pettigrew can be counted on to applaud. --Julia
Agreed, Julia. Performers need an appreciative audience, and Wormtail was built for that.
Last edited by Mona on Sun May 08, 2011 11:18 pm; edited 3 times in total
Mona- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Julia H. - Sep 15, 2009 11:58 am (#1905 of 1982)
This is not the right thread for this really, but that's sort of the argument I had for Lily and Snape, back awhile ago when everyone was saying Lily was right for turning her back on Snape because he was hanging around with pre-DEs. I felt that a true friend might've tried just a bit harder to help him see the light... (Madam Pince)
I thought of that, too, only I did not want to bring it up. But now that you have brought it up , I'd like to mention that although I have a similar feeling about Lily as you, I see a huge difference between trying to help (make) your friend overcome a flaw and feeding a friend's bad traits. Lily did not accept Snape's flaws and she tried to turn Snape away from the bad path, even if she may not have been the most persistent of friends (the way Steve described a true friend). James and Sirius, however, while they perfectly accepted Pettigrew, did not simply put up with Pettigrew's fault (cruelty, enjoying others' suffering), but they were feeding it by giving him opportunity to laugh at their victim(s). That is not the same as being patient and trusting toward your friend despite his flaws, it looks more like sharing those flaws.
Madam Pince - Sep 15, 2009 1:44 pm (#1906 of 1982)
Good point.
PeskyPixie - Sep 15, 2009 8:17 pm (#1907 of 1982)
LOL at 'sanctimonious humbugs'! Twenty points to your House, Mona (I believe you are a Ravenclaw?).
The comparison to drunk driving gets made so often, but I think that this is a situation where it actually works! The Marauders don't intend to hurt anybody (drunk drivers rarely do) but they know full well that Lupin is a deadly accident waiting to happen when he transforms. Why else do they not hang out with him in their human forms? They know he becomes a monster (to humans) each month.
I think we are fooling ourselves if we go with the 'Remus as a werewolf is still Remus' argument. Remus as a werewolf would gulp you down or rip you to shreds without a trace of remorse. Sure, he'd feel horrible about it in the morning, but that would hardly make a difference to poor you. If a werewolf is not a Dark creature I don't know what is. (Even in JKR's world, werewolves fit the criteria for Dark magic.)
mona amon - Sep 16, 2009 2:03 am (#1908 of 1982)
I think the Sorting Hat made a mistake. I feel I'm more of a Hufflepuff.
But like I mentioned, Sirius is not really my issue because he would probably be the first to say, "yeah, I'm a Black. I come from bad stock. Doing my best to turn it around, though."
It's James who is the blind one. As far as Remus-the-werewolf being Dark, I'm sure we'd all agree that he is not at fault during his childhood. *Yes* he made a mistake by teaching at Hogwarts and putting students in danger, but I am referring to his time with James and Sirius. He was doing his best to deal with what he'd been dealt.
Sirius tried to use Remus as a dark weapon against someone he detested, and that is something Sirius would probably agree was Dark. As we saw in his conversation with Harry, he admitted he was an idiot back then and wasn't too fussed.
We don't know what James did to kids in the hallway (toenail-growing or worse?) but we do know he enjoyed torturing Severus. Was it in his nature or did Sirius bring out the worst in him? I think it might be the latter for the most part. (Shadow)
I agree with all of this.
It was Remus and Sirius who made the pious remark about James always hating the Dark Arts, and that's why I put them into the Sanctimonious Club with James, But I agree that Sirius wouldn't have given a hoot, and Lupin always had guilty feelings about what they were doing. That's probably one of the reasons why I like them a lot more than James.
wynnleaf - Sep 16, 2009 8:12 am (#1909 of 1982)
The difference between James and Sirius, as well as Lupin for that matter, and the kind of person I typically think of as sanctimonious or hypocritical, is that I really believe that Sirius and Lupin were being completely sincere when they assert that James was completely opposed to anything Dark. And my guess would be that James would have been completely sincere in asserting the same thing.
I don't think that Sirius, while saying that James hated dark magic, was thinking, in the back of his mind, that really they did toy with dark things. I don't think any of them ever really thought about it at all -- the fact that they released a darkly cursed creature every month just so they could play with it, or that they created an extremely questionable and possibly dark object.
Like I said before, my feeling about the Marauders, especially James and Sirius, is that they were so convinced that they were the on the good side, by virtue of being Gryffindor and openingly opposing dark magic or Sirius openly rejecting his dark family, that they just assumed that whatever they decided to do wasn't dark, because it was them doing it.
Steve Newton - Sep 16, 2009 9:19 am (#1910 of 1982)
Sirius is certainly a loose cannon. His 'prank' on Snape goes far beyond anything in my definition of the word.
His Black background would seem to have made him a natural Slytherin. I suspect, but can't prove, that he made the choice to go for Gryffindor on the train with James.
Honour - Sep 16, 2009 5:05 pm (#1911 of 1982)
.... Or that maybe James may have had the choice like Harry to go to Slytherin and instead chose Gryffindor .... silently returning back into "lurk mode" : )
Solitaire - Sep 16, 2009 7:15 pm (#1912 of 1982)
I do not think James would ever have considered Slytherin. His anti-Slytherin bias ran too deeply. I doubt the Hat would have even suggested it. I wouldn't have minded hearing the conversation between the Hat and Sirius, however. I wonder if Bella and other members of the Black Clan got a mention ...
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 16, 2009 8:05 pm (#1913 of 1982)
I wouldn't have minded hearing the conversation between the Hat and Sirius, however.
That made me giggle, Soli. I totally agree. I think Sirius is a badboy extraordinaire, perhaps compared to how I see many of Sean Penn's roles on film. Even with all the faults, there is something that makes them full of heart, sincere even when they are not considering others...? Very complex characters, which I adore.
I agree James would not have been sorted into Slytherin. There is a line one needs to cross there, regarding blood class. James was an elitist regarding image; he was superficial. But I think the Potters were not in the "pure-blood mania" loop, and did not pass such leanings onto their son.
Julia H. - Sep 16, 2009 11:48 pm (#1914 of 1982)
Honour, I was wondering what had happened to you.
I don't see James as Slytherin material either. Not all is gold that is Gryffindor.
Sirius is different though:
I suspect, but can't prove, that he made the choice to go for Gryffindor on the train with James. (Steve)
That is how I see it as well. Sirius probably was not originally very keen on necessarily following the family tradition, but it seems it was because he liked James and saw how James despised Slytherins that he decided to be a Gryffindor.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 17, 2009 3:40 am (#1915 of 1982)
I thought Sirius didn't care much for his family's ideals, and was probably never keen on following in their footsteps.
Meeting James may have given him the idea to go for Gryffindor, though, but as a Black he would be sorted first, so he must have been very confident in his choice regardless of whatever House anyone else would end up in.
Interesting that Sirius knew he had a choice, and was willing to excercise it. Or maybe it never occured to him that choice wouldn't be possible.
Solitaire - Sep 18, 2009 7:16 am (#1916 of 1982)
Maybe the Hat saw something in Sirius that the other Blacks didn't have--or didn't see something in him that they did have. From where I sit, Sirius didn't seem to care much about blood purity, power, wealth, or other things we associate with Slytherin. Interestingly, though, the Black he seems most like to me is Bella. Both are hot-headed, reckless, and a bit off-balance. The only difference is their allegiance.
I would like to know the house affiliation of Ted Tonks and Andromeda Black when they were at Hogwarts. Tonks was a Hufflepuff. Is it possible that Andromeda was, as well? If so, then perhaps Sirius saw Hogwarts as a way to finally break away from his family's associations and affiliations, once and for all.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 18, 2009 8:37 am (#1917 of 1982)
Soli, we had a discussion about Andromeda on the 'Slytherin Disbanded' thread. I thought she was in Hufflepuff but apparently canon leads us to the conclusion that all Blacks were in Slytherin prior to Sirius. If you go to the other thread, it was discusssed in recent posts.
edit: I just went to find a link to those posts and noticed you were in on that discussion, Soli
Steve Newton - Sep 18, 2009 8:48 am (#1918 of 1982)
Slughorn speaks of wanting Regulus to complete the set of Blacks. It sounds to me as if Andromeda was a Slytherin.
PeskyPixie - Sep 18, 2009 9:02 am (#1919 of 1982)
Forgive me my Hermione moment, but Slughorn actually speaks of wanting to have had Sirius to complete his set of Blacks.
Dryleaves - Sep 18, 2009 9:09 am (#1920 of 1982)
Insufferable know-it-all!
(Smilies would ruin the effect...)
Steve Newton - Sep 18, 2009 9:29 am (#1921 of 1982)
Well said Dryleaves.
wynnleaf - Sep 18, 2009 10:22 am (#1922 of 1982)
Excellent Pesky! So that makes Andromeda a Slytherin, right?
PeskyPixie - Sep 18, 2009 11:01 am (#1923 of 1982)
I think that she must have been a Slytherin. The only reason we tend to think otherwise is because she marries a Muggleborn, is Sirius's favourite cousin, produces a sweet Hufflepuff kid like Tonks, and helps out the Order.
Dryleaves - Sep 18, 2009 11:42 am (#1924 of 1982)
Sirius says on the train that he might be the one to break the family tradition and be sorted into another house than Slytherin, and we are never told that Andromeda belonged to any other house. That is not evidence, of course, but an indication. She might have broken the family traditions later in life. They sometimes sort too soon, as we know...
PeskyPixie - Sep 18, 2009 11:51 am (#1925 of 1982)
Once again the question arises: Is a person either decent or a Slytherin?
Personally, I think that Andromeda could have been a Slytherin in terms of ambition, brains and cunning to achieve her goals (maybe her goal was Ted. ). She could posses these Slytherin qualities without submitting to her family's nutty views on blood purity.
wynnleaf - Sep 18, 2009 12:36 pm (#1926 of 1982)
If I recall correctly (and I haven't looked it up just lately), it's not an interest in blood purity that gets a person sorted into Slytherin. Salazzar was into blood purity and the House is supposed to not include muggleborns. But the characteristics of those sorted into the House don't necessarily include "elitist and for blood purity". However, those sorted are supposedly highly unlikely to be muggleborn because Slytherin was originally opposed to accepting muggleborns.
Soul Search - Sep 18, 2009 1:22 pm (#1927 of 1982)
What are the relative ages of Andromeda and Sirius? Sirius could have been the first to break the tradition, with Andromeda later.
Was Slughorn talking about Sirius and Regulus as "the set" or all the Blacks? I could see it both ways, but no others are mentioned.
legolas returns - Sep 18, 2009 2:01 pm (#1928 of 1982)
I wanted to go back over a few things
Sirius and James both seem to be very arrogant and seem utterly full of themselves. They were talented and popular. They thought that they were completely invincible. They tended to disregard all forms of rules and to hex people they disliked for the sake of it. They delibrately set about becoming Animagi even though they knew they had to be registered (they were breaking the law) they would be encouraging Lupin to disregard the precautions that were put in place for everyones safety. They looked forward to monthly adventures and did not really stop to consider what they were doing was very dangerous.
Sirius was really against the Dark Arts and hated the home that he grew up in and its pure blood mania. When you use Dark Magic you set out with the intention of delibrately trying to hurt/dominate or potentially kill someone. However much you dislike someone there is no reason to send them down a tunnel to meet a Werewolf. You know that the werewolf would attack any human that they faced. Sending Snape down the tunnel shows an intent like the intent used in Dark arts to harm. The rest of the stuff we see Sirius do to Snape is more in the line of humilation and for the sake of it.
I don't think that Sirius was completely mentally balanced before he went to Azkaban.
It generally seems to be the case that Wizards seem to be impressed with other showing powerful/advanced magical talent regardless of whether they are doing something that is right or wrong. Madame Bones was impressed that Harry could produce a full patronus. Dumbledore said to Harry that it was "extraordinary achievement" that Sirius/James and Peter could become animagi. Terry Boot was really impressed that Hermione could charm the DA coins. Ollivander describes Voldemort as "did great things - terrible, yes but great."
It can also be said that Wizards that are powerful are also arrogant about the skill they have. Voldemort is a case in point. Dumbledore was pleased with himself when he did extraordinary magic e.g his and Snapes skill after the ring incident and making the Mirror of Erised as the final protection for the Philosophers Stone. He only really told Harry about these things rather than the world at large.
Sirius fought against the Dark Arts when he left school. He unfortunately got James to agree to Wormtail being secret keeper. He was convinced that Lupin was the traitor. The problem with this is that he was so convinced that he was right and in in his arrogance he did not consider any alternative. James could not believe that a friend would betray him. The reasoning behind getting James to change secret keeper to Wormtail was not flawed. Evidence for this can be found in Chapter 4/5 DH (the seven potters/fallen Hero) Voldemort assumes that Harry will be with the most powerful protection e.g Mad Eye and then Kingsley. He does not even consider that Harry may be with Hagrid until Harry gives himself away. Voldemort would have been much more likely to go after Sirius. Unfortunatly the weakest Wizard was the traitor.
He did his best to protect Harry although he sometimes could not distinguish between Harry and James.
For all of his faults Sirius lived and died doing what he believed in.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 18, 2009 2:40 pm (#1929 of 1982)
Nice post, legolas! I agree Sirius was brave to the point of recklessness, and IMO immature to the point of perpetual selfishness. That he did his best to protect Harry is, to me, a combination of these traits. Many of the things he did "for Harry" were also for his own needs.
Regarding Andromeda, Slughorn's comment and Sirius's in OP to Harry about his family both are straight canon that Andromeda seems to have been in Slytherin. Perhaps at the age of eleven she was not aware that she could choose to defy her family tradition.
legolas returns - Sep 18, 2009 3:08 pm (#1930 of 1982)
After leaving school Andromeda certainly had a mind of her own and chose to marry a Muggle born. This was against her upbringing and the philosophy of Slytherin. She was Sirius's favourite cousin so she must have been ok when she was younger. I know Lily and Snape were friends but generally you don't see Slytherin and Gryffindor mix that much.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 18, 2009 7:08 pm (#1931 of 1982)
I had always assumed Andromeda was a Hufflepuff, and not included in the "Black family" that Slughorn and Sirius were referring to. I saw it more as the immediate family and ascendents of Sirius. But its all how you interpret it, I guess. I thought Sirius had made mention of his entire family being Slytherins in OP when he is showing Harry the family tree, but I can't recall for sure. Sirius does make the comment to James in the Memory on the train in The Prince's Tale.
There's an interesting discussion on the HP wikipedia about this subject: **http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Black_Family_in_Slytherin
Solitaire - Sep 18, 2009 7:54 pm (#1932 of 1982)
I guess I interpreted "the set" to mean the two Black brothers, Sirius and Regulus. I do not yet admit that I am wrong.
I get the idea that Andromeda was older, Soul Search, based on Tonks's age. She was about 23, I think, which would make Andromeda at least 40, even if she had Tonks right out of Hogwarts. I've often wondered if Andromeda and Bella were twins, given they looked so much alike.
Orion - Sep 19, 2009 5:02 am (#1933 of 1982)
The reason why nobody wants Andromeda to be in Slytherin is that nobody can imagine a nice girl like her to be in a House that everybody thinks only holds monsters. Why can't Andromeda not be a cunning, ambitious Slytherin who is completely happy with her House, fervently shouts for them in Quidditch matches and still has no problems with falling in love with a nice Hufflepuff boy named Ted Tonks and choosing him over her family?
Edited to add: What I mean is: If you fall in love with somebody suddenly you might reconsider the values of your family. You grew up with muggle-born-haters, then you meet a nice muggle-born, and then you think, oh, muggle-borns are not so bad after all, you come home for the holidays and tell them about your new boyfriend, there is an allmighty family row and your choice is clear even if it means that you're not welcome any more. Every family who throws out a member simply because of the wrong boyfriend or girlfriend is mental anyway.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 19, 2009 6:24 am (#1934 of 1982)
Beware the Strawman!
I seriously doubt "nobody" and "everybody" hold the same opinion about any one thing for exactly the same reasons. That would be really odd, and wouldn't leave much to discuss.
That said, I've always assumed that Andromeda was in Slytherin given Slughorn's and Sirius's information. It's probable that some other Order members or independent opposers of Voldemort were also former Slytherins, and that some of the family members and shop keepers who returned to the final battle with Slughorn were also former Slytherins. We aren't given the former House affiliations of most of the adults we meet in the books, other than the many Gryffindors.
Honour - Sep 19, 2009 6:32 am (#1935 of 1982)
Sorry guys just sending a quick "hey there!" wave to Julie H, before quitetly going back into "lurk mode" again. : )
By the by what's wrong with the idea of James being considered by the hat to be Slytherin material? As was mentioned a few posts back James also exhibits typical Sytherin characteristics, is arrogant, is of pure blood, enjoys hexing people ... Even Harry was asked to consider Slytherin by the hat so why not his Dad? ... and as this is the Sirius thread ...
Mayhaps Sirius was offered the same deal but in reverse, or mayhaps he "did a Harry" and whispered "not Slytherin, not Slytherin ..."
... returning back into "lurking mode" : )
Madam Pince - Sep 19, 2009 7:39 am (#1936 of 1982)
For what it's worth, I also always considered that all Hogwarts students with the last name of "Black" had been in Slytherin, prior to Sirius. (This based on the "I'd have liked the set" and the info Sirius gave us.) So for me that includes Bella, Cissy, and Andromeda.
JKR indicated in interviews that Slytherin had some "what-we'd-consider-'good'-students" in it -- she just did a very poor job of firming up that assertion with canon examples, especially with the final Hogwarts Battle, which I consider to be one of her biggest failings with the series. She spent all this time talking about "choices" and how not everyone's either DE or good-guy, and then she let a golden opportunity drop when she failed to fully describe who was battling who in the Final Battle. But alas earwax.
So anyway, chalk me up in the "Sirius was the only non-Slytherin Black" club...
Solitaire - Sep 19, 2009 10:09 am (#1937 of 1982)
She spent all this time talking about "choices" and how not everyone's either DE or good-guy, and then she let a golden opportunity drop when she failed to fully describe who was battling who in the Final Battle.
I agree. The only Slytherin we saw fighting against Voldemort (not counting Snape, who is dead by this time) was Slughorn. However, he dueled him directly, so that was a pretty good indicator of where his loyalties lay ... for those around him who were confused. By the time the Malfoys got to the castle, they were past dueling, I suppose. The fact that they stayed at Hogwarts after the battle--when they could have attempted to flee--could mean they had decided to take their lumps.
As to Sirius and the Hat ... I'm guessing that Hat noticed at once that there was something different about Sirius ... that he was not a "typical" Black. Perhaps it had heard about Sirius ("ungrateful grandson") from Phineas in DD's office and knew what to expect! LOL
wynnleaf - Sep 19, 2009 4:39 pm (#1938 of 1982)
Some interesting thoughts Legolas. Very good points about wizards, good and bad, being impressed with power and magical ability.
When you use Dark Magic you set out with the intention of delibrately trying to hurt/dominate or potentially kill someone. (Legolas)
Unfortunately, we don't know whether or not this is true in JKR's world. Many of us have speculated that intent is important in whether or not something is dark, but JKR doesn't show us this. Almost the contrary, as she says that all curses are dark, and yet has her good characters use many curses. And Snape uses Sectumsempra in order to defend an Order member, but while the intent is good, it's still a dark curse.
Unfortunatly the weakest Wizard was the traitor. (Legolas)
Whether or not Peter was truly the weakest wizard (in terms of sheer magical ability) is debatable. Certainly Sirius, James and Lupin considered him less able, but he was able to trick them consistently for some time and apparently tricked DD as well, since Peter got in the Order. He was able to pull of a complex faking of his own death and kill numerous people in, apparently, one blow (one magical spell of some kind). And while his friends helped him become an animagas, he was able to do it, which apparently is something rather rare, help or no help.
Solitaire - Sep 19, 2009 5:43 pm (#1939 of 1982)
Edited Dec 10, 2009 7:31 pm
Peter was certainly cowardly, but it doesn't necessarily follow that he was not a talented wizard ... although McGonagall (if I'm remembering correctly from the Three Broomsticks conversation in PoA) did not think much of his talent when he was in school. The fears he expressed in the Shack in PoA make him seem weak, but that could be put-on, too.
Interestingly, I think that killing all of those Muggles in the process of faking his own death is probably an indicator of lack of talent. I believe that a more talented wizard could have pulled off the job without killing innocent bystanders. Then again, as Voldemort's agent, Peter has already proven that he does not care much about the innocent, so perhaps he didn't even try to spare them. JM2K.
PeskyPixie - Dec 10, 2009 10:08 am (#1940 of 1982)
"I still wonder why Dumbledore so readily believed Sirius had betrayed the Potters." -Soul Search (on the Snape thread)
I wonder whether Sirius's family background also made it easier for people to believe the worst about him so quickly?
Soul Search - Dec 10, 2009 3:38 pm (#1941 of 1982)
I thought a bit after making that statement and had some further thoughts:
While James may have had a better rep with Dumbledore and others, I am not sure Sirius enjoyed good opinions of himself. Things we saw like the Snape prank and his attack on Snape in the OotP pensieve memory suggest he may not have been all that popular with Dumbledore and others. His actions, and family background, may well have supported the idea he would betray James. If Lupin believed it, certainly most others would.
Dumbledore may not have had any reason to go to bat for Sirius, in spite of Sirius being in the Order. Sirius may have been not much more than a "loose cannon." Dumbledore wouldn't use him for anything in OotP, and previous Order experience may have been why.
Viola Intonada - Dec 11, 2009 7:13 am (#1942 of 1982)
Remember, at the time, they knew that someone in the Order was a traitor, but they didn't know who. It could have been anyone, no one was above suspicion. I think that they would have accepted it being Lupin or Peter just as easily as they accepted it being Sirius.
Suspicion was one of Voldemort's tools for disabling his enemies. It is difficult to fight against something as you are continually looking over your shoulder to make sure you are not getting stabbed in the back.
Lupin would have been under suspicion because he was a werewolf. Sirius would have been under suspicion because his family had been Slytherins and his brother was a Death Eater. Peter was under less suspicion because he was looked upon as an inferior wizard and was seen to worship the ground that Sirius and James walked on.
Thom Matheson - Dec 11, 2009 10:10 am (#1943 of 1982)
There was also lots of muggles that saw the fight with Peter before the explosion and then only found Peter's finger. So 2 + 2 = Sirius guilty
Soul Search - Dec 11, 2009 1:15 pm (#1944 of 1982)
What must have really convinced everyone that Sirius was guilty was his own lack of effort to set the record straight. It is his own fault he had to spend 12 years in Azkaban. Yes, he felt guilty because he had switched to Peter for secret keeper, but still ...
The ministry probably didn't give him a trial because he never protested his innocence. He, likely, even mumbled something like "its all my fault" so the Ministry thought that a confession.
I have to believe, had Sirius claimed to be innocent, he would have had some support from friends and the Order.
Honour - Dec 11, 2009 3:45 pm (#1945 of 1982)
"I have to believe, had Sirius claimed to be innocent, he would have had some support from friends and the Order." - Soul Search
I don't know so much Soul Search. Lily and James were a very popular couple. As mentioned the "Black" family had a bad reputaion, Sirius of course had a death eater brother, I think that as in Hagrid's case no one investigated deep enough.
And saddest of all his "friends" well, James who knew and I think trusted and loved Sirius the most was dead, Lupin's word would have been looked upon with suspicion because of his "little furry problem". I don't even think Lupin would have even spoken up for Sirius such was Lupin's weak character, and as for Peter well, we all know about him.
I think that if Sirius was allowed to have been able to bring up Harry he would have fought the charges against him. I think that when Hagrid was sent by Dumbledore to collect Harry and they met Sirius and Hagrid let Sirius know that DD had sent him, I think that Sirius read (well this is what I read in the situation):
1. Dumbledore believed that Sirius was the spy and contributed to to the murder of Harry's parents and was taking Harry "to safety", even though Sirius was Harry's godfather.
2. And if Dumbledore believed that Sirius was guilty then so would the rest of the Wizarding World. After all Harry was taken into DD's custody before Peter was supposed to have been murdered by Sirius.
So the only other option Sirius had left open to him was to find Peter because only Sirius alone (now) knew that Peter was the secret keeper. I would like to think that Sirius was going to bring Peter in to prove his innocence, but instead he walked into the perfect trap. So yes, in the end I believe that Sirius did go a little crazy, because "little untalented Peter Pettigrew" had pulled off the impossible of being a spy for Voldermort right under everyone's noses. Peter had a hand in killing James and Lily, fingered Sirius for these and the murders of the muggles, probably was the instigator of suspicion and mistrust between Sirius and Lupin and anyone one else in the Wizarding World that Peter could repeat these tales to.
James was the brother that Sirius chose and the Potter's were the family that embraced him whole-heartedly, so yes, wracked with guilt, probably raging with anger for himself because he was deceived so easily by Peter, and knowing that Dumbledore would keep Harry safe,(Sirius probably thought at the time that he had nothing to offer the boy anyway) I think Sirius just succumbed to the insanity of the situation and allowed himself to be taken away to Azkhaban...
Soul Search - Dec 11, 2009 6:52 pm (#1946 of 1982)
Honour, very good assessment. I agree.
azi - Apr 28, 2010 10:58 am (#1947 of 1982)
I was reading POA the other day and something started bugging me. When Sirius, James and Peter became animagi they kept it secret while at school, which I completely understand (I'm sure there's some rule against it somewhere...). However, why, when they became members of the Order of the Phoenix, did they not tell Dumbledore what they had achieved?
The ability to change into an animal is a very useful one for the sort of work they'd have done for the Order. Surely, after being out of school for a few years, it wouldn't matter that they managed it in school (you wouldn't have to mention that little detail anyway...). If Dumbledore had known they had that ability then it could have been used to the Order's advantage. By withholding the information they were potentially decreasing the number of opportunities to help defeat Voldemort.
One reason I considered was that they didn't want to get in trouble with the Ministry. However, I don't think it would have mattered as the old Order members describe the Ministry as being in chaos at that time. It probably wasn't upholding law and order particularly well. Sirius and James weren't exactly law-abiding types anyway so I don't think they would have cared if people knew they'd broken the law.
There are two other possibilities that I can think of;
A) Remus wanted to keep it secret because he felt bad at what happened at Hogwarts (night time exploration, taking advantage of Dumbledore's trust etc.) and they obliged.
B) They decided to keep it secret in case the information was leaked to Voldemort, which would have put them in more danger. I don't think it would have been necessary to tell everyone in the Order about the skill - just telling Dumbledore would have made him aware of the advantage and allow him to use it effectively.
Any thoughts? Am I making a mountain of a molehill? Sometimes it feels like over-analysis...
Soul Search - Apr 28, 2010 11:39 am (#1948 of 1982)
Azi, You cited some pretty good reasons for the four friends to keep their childhood secret. Additionally, they could use an animagi advantage for the Order, without anyone being aware of it. It was THEIR secret; that is, something shared among the four friends which might be sullied if others knew. They had kept the secret for a number of years and saw no reason to let anyone else in on it. Having the secret among the four friends out weighed any possible advantage of Dumbledore knowing it.
azi - Apr 28, 2010 11:53 am (#1949 of 1982)
I can't help but think it was very childish of them to continue to keep it a secret, but I guess Sirius is a good example that they didn't really mature anyway. I suppose I'm just interpreting it as them not trusting anyone else with the secret rather than them not seeing any point in telling others.
I wonder if Lily knew they were animagi?
Soul Search - Apr 28, 2010 4:59 pm (#1950 of 1982)
Azi, a few more thoughts. While they were friends before thay became animagi, they became the MARAUDERS when they could change and run with Remus. I would think they would run with Remus even after they left Hogwarts. Remus still had the problem and still would appreciate the help of his friends.
Lily would have learned Remus was a werewolf, if she didn't know from Snape's chiding at Hogwarts. Given that, she would learn James was an animagi. They were close enough that James would tell her, anyway. He might have even given her a ride, every now and then.
Julia H. - Apr 28, 2010 10:05 pm (#1951 of 1982)
Interesting questions. The Marauders seem to have been a group where friendship was to a large extent based on secrets known exclusively by the four of them (and later maybe Lily?) - or at least these secrets seem to be an important theme in their relationship. (Perhaps that was a reason why James refused Dumbledore as Secret Keeper and insisted on choosing a Marauder despite the warning.) It is indeed probable that the monthly night time adventures continued even after Hogwarts.
If they had registered as Animagi, that would have meant some official control over them, which they clearly did not want. If they had told their secret to Dumbledore alone (for the sake of the Order), Dumbledore might have asked questions like why and how long, and Lupin was very reluctant even after a decade and a half to confess how he had betrayed Dumbledore's trust and broken the rules at Hogwarts.
As for Lily, we know that she knew their nicknames, so perhaps (but not necessarily) she knew the origin of the nicknames, too. Even if the adventures continued, James could have simply told her that he was going out with his friends - unless Lily knew about Lupin's condition. In that case, she must have wondered how they were going out during the full moon, so then she was probably told.
On the other hand, this is what we find in Lily's letter to Padfoot:
"James is getting a bit frustrated shut up here, he tries not to show it but I can tell – also Dumbledore’s still got his Invisibility Cloak, so no chance of little excursions."
However, James could have taken walks as a stag - of course, it would have been very dangerous since Wormtail had probably informed Voldemort about their Animagus forms, but James obviously did not expect that. But maybe wandering as a stag would not have been such fun alone. Or Lily did not know about it and it would have been hard to explain. Or she did know about it and she disapproved of James taking that risk.
Solitaire - Apr 28, 2010 10:45 pm (#1952 of 1982)
We know of 4 unregistered Animagi: James, Sirius, Peter, and Rita. I wonder how many others there are out there?
One disadvantage to not telling Dumbledore their secret is that knowledge of Peter's Animagus form might have given DD pause when Sirius was arrested. If he had known that they were Animagi, DD might have taken the opportunity to question Sirius about why he didn't just change form and escape ... and investigate whether Peter might not have done just that. BTW, I see Prongs as being a less helpful Animagus form than Padfoot or Wormtail in various Order doings. Dogs (even big ones) and rats can go anywhere without attracting too much attention. A stag ... ? Unless the work was out in the forest somewhere, it would be far too conspicuous. JM2K ...
mona amon - Apr 29, 2010 12:33 am (#1953 of 1982)
I'm not sure how useful being an animagus would have been to the Order. Remember the way Bella AKs that fox, thinking it just might be an auror, and we never see Mcgonnagal using her Animagus form for Order work.
I also agree that James stag form would have been way too conspicuous.
Solitaire - Apr 29, 2010 6:19 am (#1954 of 1982)
we never see Mcgonnagal using her Animagus form for Order work
She certainly used it to spy on--or should I say observe--the Dursleys, although that was probably not Order business. Anyway, while Vernon noticed her, it was only because she was reading a map or something. (Sorry ... no books handy.) We really do not know if she ever used her Animagus form to work for the Order or not. She might have done so in the early days. Dumbledore didn't seem especially surprised to see her in her cat form at Privet Drive, which makes me believe that she must have used that form often enough. She would seem more likely to have used it in Order work than in teaching. JM2K, of course.
wynnleaf - May 2, 2010 11:23 am (#1955 of 1982)
The idea that they didn't tell DD because Lupin didn't want them to is possible. If Lupin didn't to tell DD even when everyone thought children were being endangered and he knew Sirius could escape by being an animagus, then it's fairly likely that he'd have also not wanted to tell DD years earlier. However, I find it hard to picture James and Sirius avoiding telling DD solely because Lupin was uncomfortable with it. Maybe they would do that, but it seems more likely - if James and Sirius had wanted to tell DD - that they'd have laughed off Lupin's fears of DD's displeasure, maybe encouraged Lupin a bit, and told DD anyway.
My guess is that they viewed it as their secret between themselves and never even considered telling DD. And if they had considered it at all, Lupin's worries would probably have been seconded by Peter (for reasons of his own, of course), making two of the Marauders against any thought of telling DD.
Honour - May 3, 2010 6:12 am (#1956 of 1982)
Actually Wynleaf I think not telling Dumbledore for Lupin's sake would be exactly what James and Sirius would do. (Did I misunderstand you?) Any who, James had already demonstrated to his and Lily's demise that he trusted no one higher than his friends, so if one said friend did not want it to be known that the other were animagus /animagi(?) in order to protect said friend then I can not see James or Sirius breaking that trust, not even for Dumbledore.
After all they kept their secret through their school days and for 13 years after James had died and - it was only to Jame's son and his trusted friends that they shared this knowledge with.
Soul Search - May 3, 2010 11:05 am (#1957 of 1982)
I agree with the way this topic has evolved: The Marauders told no one about their animagi forms, for any or all of the reasons suggested. (Except, no way could James not show off for Lily.)
Voldemort knew Pettigrew could take the form of a rat. He mentions it in one of his discourses. Pettigrew probably told Voldemort of the Marauder animagi capability when he turned traitor. Don't see that it made much difference, though.
Julia H. - May 3, 2010 1:19 pm (#1958 of 1982)
Except, no way could James not show off for Lily. (Soul Search)
LOL, good point.
Don't see that it made much difference, though.
Not in the Marauder era, but later, when Sirius was hiding from the aurors and the Dementors, Lucius Malfoy recognized him as Padfoot at King's Cross. The fact that Pettigrew knew about his Animagus form, was the reason why Sirius was not usually allowed to go out even as Padfoot. Apparently, Voldemort did not only know what his Animagus form was, but he was also aware that Sirius was still a fierce protector of Harry - at least the information of the Padfoot form was important enough for Voldemort to share it with Lucius. My guess is that Lucius may have let the Ministry know it, too (without mentioning the source of the information, obviously).
PeskyPixie - Jul 26, 2010 8:41 am (#1959 of 1982)
Edited Jul 26, 2010 9:41 am
All this talk of animagi makes me wonder when Snape knew of the Marauders' animal forms? At the end of GoF he is surprised (to put it lightly) when the big black dog turns into Sirius. However, since Lily's death, his patronus has apparently been a doe. How would he know the significance of his patronus without knowing that James is a stag?
Hieronymus Graubart - Jul 26, 2010 8:50 am (#1960 of 1982)
May Severus know that Lily's patronus was a doe, but not be aware of the doe's significance (the stag relation)?
PeskyPixie - Jul 26, 2010 9:25 am (#1961 of 1982)
Do we know for a fact that Lily's patronus was a doe?
Solitaire - Jul 26, 2010 9:43 am (#1962 of 1982)
I do not think it is stated, exactly, but Dumbledore certainly understood the significance of the doe in The Prince's Tale. He would have known what Lily's Patronus was, wouldn't he?
Soul Search - Jul 26, 2010 7:18 pm (#1963 of 1982)
Developing a patronus would have been done in a classroom, so one's patronus form would have been public knowledge.
Solitaire - Jul 26, 2010 8:18 pm (#1964 of 1982)
Edited Jul 26, 2010 9:19 pm
Did students do this in class? The O.W.L. examiners seemed to find it pretty incredible, and not only because of Harry's age. Didn't Hermione say that lots of wizards couldn't do it?
Hieronymus Graubart - Jul 26, 2010 11:45 pm (#1965 of 1982)
Dementors are covered in advanced DADA during the sixth year. So this would be the time when students should try to create a patronus, at least if their teacher doesn't say that there are better ways to defend themselves against dementors.
Julia H. - Jul 27, 2010 1:55 am (#1966 of 1982)
Edited Jul 27, 2010 3:00 am
We never find out for a fact if the Patronus Charm is taught at Hogwarts or not. Lupin talks about it as extremely difficult magic, at OWL level it is considered very impressive, but we also know that most of the DA members learn it. Snape manages to skip it in his DADA class, and he has his own reason, but could he do it if it was compulsory NEWT material? (Then again, he probably suspects that the students in that class are not going to have normal NEWT exams...)
If the Patronus Charm is taught at Hogwarts, then it is easy to know about each other's Patronuses - which can be quite embarrassing sometimes - and in that case Snape may have known about Lily's Patronus early on. But I also like the idea that his Patronus became a doe without Snape's prior knowledge about the shape of Lily's Patronus, and he found out the truth from Dumbledore, who must have known the Patronuses of all Order members.
How would he know the significance of his patronus without knowing that James is a stag? (Pesky)
The significance of his Patronus is with reference to Lily, and I don't think Snape would have been very interested in the "stag aspect" of Lily's Patronus or that he could know of the Marauders' Animagus skills before the end of PoA or even before the end of GoF.
I wonder if Dumbledore gives Snape some explanation after PoA when Snape calms down a little (I think he should) and how much confidential information he tells him about Sirius. At the end of GoF, it does seem that Snape does not mind the big black dog until he sees the dog change into Sirius - but at least he does not seem to think any more that Sirius is a murderer and a traitor. Then again, if Dumbledore tells him anything about Pettigrew, he must tell him about Pettigrew being an Animagus, otherwise the story does not make sense.
Do we know for a fact that Lily's patronus was a doe? (Pesky)
As Solitaire says, Dumbledore makes the connection between Lily and the doe, and what other connection could there be? (Unless Lily was an Animagus as well, which is unlikely.) Harry certainly understands it that way. Also, when Harry sees the doe in the forest, he is struck by her "inexplicable familiarity" (or something similar). It is possible that he saw his mother's Patronus when he was a baby, and that is why the doe looks familiar, even though he does not have conscious memories of her.
Solitaire - Jul 27, 2010 5:23 am (#1967 of 1982)
I always found it interesting that Tonks's Patronus changed. I'd always thought she changed it on purpose, but that can't be, can it? Surely, if Patronus forms can be deliberately altered, Snape would have changed his own in order to teach the spell and not give anything away. It seems that one's Patronus is very closely linked with one's heart ... and who one is.
Remember DD's comment to Harry: "You think the dead we loved ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him. How else could you produce that particular Patronus? Prongs rode again last night."
I would guess that Snape was thinking about Lily more than ever with Harry in such peril that night in the forest. (Of course, that scene also reminded me of a dream Harry had in the third book. I can't remember where it is right now, and I don't have my book handy, but I'm sure someone can find the scene.)
mona amon - Jul 27, 2010 6:15 am (#1968 of 1982)
Edited Jul 27, 2010 7:23 am
Do we know for a fact that Lily's patronus was a doe? (Pesky)
Good to see you again, Pesky!
Harry states very definitely to Voldemort, "Snape's patronus was a doe, the same as my mother's", but we're not told when and how he found out.
We also do not know whether Severus knew Lily's patronus was a doe, only that he instinctively connected it with her.
Solitaire - Jul 27, 2010 6:47 am (#1969 of 1982)
I think Harry must have drawn that conclusion from watching Snape's memories in the Pensieve. Do you suppose James's Patronus was also a stag? I'm trying to remember how many Patronuses we have seen cast by Wizards who are Animagi and whether or not the two forms were the same.
Julia H. - Jul 27, 2010 6:50 am (#1970 of 1982)
Edited Jul 27, 2010 7:56 am
I think there is only one case mentioned in the books: Minerva's Patronus is the same as her Animagus form, a cat.
It makes it possible that James's Patronus was a stag, but it is not specifically stated.
I don't think there any other characters (besides Minerva) whose Animagus and Patronus forms we both know.
It is also remarkable that James Potter's best friend's Animagus form is a dog, while Harry Potter's best friend's Patronus is a dog. Two different persons, but they are both important in the books as friends.
PeskyPixie - Jul 28, 2010 7:43 am (#1971 of 1982)
Edited Jul 28, 2010 8:44 am
Hi mona.
Lily is only a doe because James is a stag. To me, there is no other way to connect a doe to Lily. However, as Snape was so deeply in love with her, I guess he figured it out instinctively. Or else, as others have stated, Dumbledore told him the significance of it as he knew the patronuses of all order members. Hmmm, I wonder what Snape's patronus was prior to Lily's death?
Julia H. - Jul 28, 2010 8:26 am (#1972 of 1982)
Edited Jul 28, 2010 9:33 am
Lily is only a doe because James is a stag.
Maybe, although it is possible that other characteristics - grace, beauty, femininity, innocence etc. - also link Lily to a doe. But it is quite possible that she is a doe mainly because James is a stag. Still, I don't think Snape's Patronus is interested in why Lily is a doe, and I don't think Snape has to know about the stag to understand the significance of his Patronus being the same as Lily's.
By the way, I am told that the doe and the stag belong to different species. The mate of the stag is usually a hind, while the mate of the doe is usually a buck. If that is true, what does that imply about the relationship between James and Lily? If Lily became a doe because James was a stag, but got the wrong species, would that mean that she made a major mistake? (About the size that Hagrid's father made?)
Hmmm, I wonder what Snape's patronus was prior to Lily's death?
Aaah, what a question to discuss! ***contemplates running away*** I love Patronus lore.
Solitaire - Jul 28, 2010 9:24 am (#1973 of 1982)
I looked up several links on stag, deer, hart, and hind, and so far, they all refer to kinds of deer. Possibly, Jo (and Lily?) connected them the same way. I don't think the difference between a doe and a hind is significant enough to say that Lily made a mistake.
What is Tonks's new Patronus--a wolf or werewolf? Do we know what it was before that?
Hieronymus Graubart - Jul 29, 2010 6:44 am (#1974 of 1982)
Well, I'm sure the difference between a doe and a hind is significant to the stag and the roebuck .
Do most humans who aren't zoologists call every female deer a doe and every male deer a stag?
Although we have a similar habit in Germany, the translator tried to correct Jo's (or Lily's?) mistake and called the Reh (doe) a Hirschkuh (hind). Now I wonder if this mistake was made on purpose and we got another translational error
No, we don't really know anything about Tonk's old Patronus, and we don't have enough information to decide if the new one is a wolf or a werewolf. But if we consider this to be a werewolf in it's (his?) animal state couldn't we also ask if Harry's Patronus is a stag or an animagus?
Chemyst - Jul 30, 2010 5:13 pm (#1975 of 1982)
Edited Jul 30, 2010 6:29 pm
Oh my goodness! You all are right! ...and that got me to thinking about the classic Disney movie, Bambi. Bambi's father was a 'stag.' My search engine enlightened me: The movie was based on an Austrian book and Bambi's original species was roe deer native to Europe. The movie-Bambi is American white-tail. (sigh) Movie makers think they can change anything, don't they? That could be part of the reason people don't make the distinction. They see the movie as kids, don't know any better, and no one ever corrects them.
Do most humans who aren't zoologists call every female deer a doe and every male deer a stag?
I think you'd have to include deer hunters with the zoologists; they hunt bucks here.
Lily is only a doe because James is a stag.
I hope not. I hope James was a stag because Lily was destined to be a doe. It is a power thing. I'd rather have James change for her than have Lily give up who she was.
(I expect most male posters will disagree... being a power thing and all.)
...as an afterthought, when a couple is getting married, why do the guys have a stag party and the girls have a hen party?
Solitaire - Jul 30, 2010 5:50 pm (#1976 of 1982)
Edited Jul 30, 2010 6:55 pm
I hope James was a stag because Lily was destined to be a doe. It is a power thing. I'd rather have James change for her than have Lily give up who she was.
If Patronus charms are taught in 6th year, that would be after James perfected his Animagus form. Was his Patronus also a stag? If he and Lily were truly in love by that point, it could be why her Patronus was a doe. Or perhaps it took that form because she knew by this point that he was an Animagus. I'm not a male, Chemyst, but I don't think it has anything to do with power. I think it has to do with strength of feeling and where one's head and heart are. Lily was in love with James, but did she have control over the form her Patronus took? Snape remained in love with Lily, and that seems to be why his Patronus is also a doe. Or maybe it is because he granted James so much power over him (with his obsessions). Hard to say ...
mona amon - Jul 31, 2010 4:13 am (#1977 of 1982)
Edited Jul 31, 2010 5:16 am
I think Lily and James are the only couple we know of who have related patronuses. Tonks case is slightly different because it was the shock of Remus's rejection of her that caused her patronus to change to represent him. If Remus had agreed he loved her right from the start, she would probably have retained her old patronus, whatever that was - the one Severus 'likes' better than her wolf/werewolf one. Hermione's and Ron's patronuses are not even of the same family, and neither are Harry's and Ginny's.
This relationship of Lily's patronus to James's animagus form shows, IMO, that they were soulmates, and is not a power thing.
But poor Severus! It seems like he cannot have anything of Lily's that isn't also strongly connected to James or the Marauders. He has to tear away James before he can have a picture of her. He has to tear away her signature from a letter to a Marauder. In a way it serves him right for continuing to be obsessed with a girl who chose someone else instead of trying to move on, but it's still sad.
And bringing this back to topic, I think it's possible that while he was aware of Sirius's animagus form ( and Peter's) after POA, he may never have known that James had an illegal animagus form related to Lily's patronus, now his own. Dumbledore usually doesn't tell anyone more than they need to know.
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2010 2:48 am (#1978 of 1982)
Edited Aug 9, 2010 3:55 am
I hope James was a stag because Lily was destined to be a doe. It is a power thing. I'd rather have James change for her than have Lily give up who she was. (Chemyst)
Perhaps it is a power thing, but the relationship may be more complicated. The Patronus of Tonks changed because of Lupin. (Could it become a female wolf? Hm.) Still, I feel that this attempt to break up was about the only time when Lupin tried to be the stronger one in their relationship. It seems Tonks insisted on the relationship to start with, later Lupin married her against his better judgement, and it was Tonks who wanted to have a child in the first place. Finally, when Lupin thought she was at home with little Teddy, she made her own decision and followed Lupin to the battle.
Back to Lily and James: I can see a lot more independent reason for James to be a stag than for Lily to be a doe. Or more precisely, I think the stag is a perfect animal representation of James's character. A stag is an animal that lives in a herd (is that the right word in the case of deer?), where males fight for dominance and ... well, mating rights. James seems to be a very competitive teenage boy, who wants to have a leader's position in his own group, and who also happens to be a school sports hero (Quidditch is also about beating the opponent), and he wants the most beautiful and popular girl.
Besides, while one's Patronus can represent where one's heart lies, the stag is James's Animagus form (as well?), which may be more about who the wizard really is (character-wise). So I find it more probable that Lily became a doe because James was a stag than the other way round. Whether this was a power issue or not ... It does seem that in the Lily - Snape friendship Lily was the more powerful one, but in the Lily - James relationship... - not necessarily.
Since this is the Sirius Black thread... His Animagus form seems to represent him as a friend in the first place - the faithful dog - while James is the alpha male of the group. It is bitterly ironic that everyone thinks him a traitor for such a long time. Would Dumbledore have had doubts if he had only known about this Animagus form after the tragedy in Godric's Hollow? Any thoughts?
Odo the Hero - Aug 14, 2010 11:23 am (#1979 of 1982)
I think it is likely that James and Lily were intrinsically compatible with one another, and that the similarity of their Patronuses reflects that, rather than that one or the other of their Patronuses changed when they fell in love. Of course, it would be helpful to know more about the Patronuses of other magical couples before and after the beginning of their relationships.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 14, 2010 9:15 pm (#1980 of 1982)
Edited Aug 14, 2010 10:17 pm
I think it is worthy that James and Lily had mutually intrinsic partners for Patronuses. The fact that Severus had Lily's Patronus rather than a partner for her's reveals a few things to me, that he was possibly more on the "obsessive love" tendency than James -- or at the very least the "yearning for what we cannot have" reflection, i.e., Tonks's morphed Patronus. But his Patronus formed after her death, and this to me is most important regarding why it is what it is.
I think it is worth discussing how all of these Patronuses formed after James and Lily fell in love, and what that reflects.
Maybe this shouldn't be discussed on the Sirius thread...?
Chemyst - Aug 15, 2010 5:44 pm (#1981 of 1982)
Edited Aug 15, 2010 6:50 pm
OK, there is a James and Lily thread under other magical people — Wizards, Witches, Muggles, etc Group Section Folder.
I will post there and pehaps a moderator will put it on the front page again.
Solitaire - Aug 15, 2010 6:31 pm (#1982 of 1982)
Maybe we need a thread on Patronuses and Animagus forms. I checked the various group folders and could not find one.
This is not the right thread for this really, but that's sort of the argument I had for Lily and Snape, back awhile ago when everyone was saying Lily was right for turning her back on Snape because he was hanging around with pre-DEs. I felt that a true friend might've tried just a bit harder to help him see the light... (Madam Pince)
I thought of that, too, only I did not want to bring it up. But now that you have brought it up , I'd like to mention that although I have a similar feeling about Lily as you, I see a huge difference between trying to help (make) your friend overcome a flaw and feeding a friend's bad traits. Lily did not accept Snape's flaws and she tried to turn Snape away from the bad path, even if she may not have been the most persistent of friends (the way Steve described a true friend). James and Sirius, however, while they perfectly accepted Pettigrew, did not simply put up with Pettigrew's fault (cruelty, enjoying others' suffering), but they were feeding it by giving him opportunity to laugh at their victim(s). That is not the same as being patient and trusting toward your friend despite his flaws, it looks more like sharing those flaws.
Madam Pince - Sep 15, 2009 1:44 pm (#1906 of 1982)
Good point.
PeskyPixie - Sep 15, 2009 8:17 pm (#1907 of 1982)
LOL at 'sanctimonious humbugs'! Twenty points to your House, Mona (I believe you are a Ravenclaw?).
The comparison to drunk driving gets made so often, but I think that this is a situation where it actually works! The Marauders don't intend to hurt anybody (drunk drivers rarely do) but they know full well that Lupin is a deadly accident waiting to happen when he transforms. Why else do they not hang out with him in their human forms? They know he becomes a monster (to humans) each month.
I think we are fooling ourselves if we go with the 'Remus as a werewolf is still Remus' argument. Remus as a werewolf would gulp you down or rip you to shreds without a trace of remorse. Sure, he'd feel horrible about it in the morning, but that would hardly make a difference to poor you. If a werewolf is not a Dark creature I don't know what is. (Even in JKR's world, werewolves fit the criteria for Dark magic.)
mona amon - Sep 16, 2009 2:03 am (#1908 of 1982)
I think the Sorting Hat made a mistake. I feel I'm more of a Hufflepuff.
But like I mentioned, Sirius is not really my issue because he would probably be the first to say, "yeah, I'm a Black. I come from bad stock. Doing my best to turn it around, though."
It's James who is the blind one. As far as Remus-the-werewolf being Dark, I'm sure we'd all agree that he is not at fault during his childhood. *Yes* he made a mistake by teaching at Hogwarts and putting students in danger, but I am referring to his time with James and Sirius. He was doing his best to deal with what he'd been dealt.
Sirius tried to use Remus as a dark weapon against someone he detested, and that is something Sirius would probably agree was Dark. As we saw in his conversation with Harry, he admitted he was an idiot back then and wasn't too fussed.
We don't know what James did to kids in the hallway (toenail-growing or worse?) but we do know he enjoyed torturing Severus. Was it in his nature or did Sirius bring out the worst in him? I think it might be the latter for the most part. (Shadow)
I agree with all of this.
It was Remus and Sirius who made the pious remark about James always hating the Dark Arts, and that's why I put them into the Sanctimonious Club with James, But I agree that Sirius wouldn't have given a hoot, and Lupin always had guilty feelings about what they were doing. That's probably one of the reasons why I like them a lot more than James.
wynnleaf - Sep 16, 2009 8:12 am (#1909 of 1982)
The difference between James and Sirius, as well as Lupin for that matter, and the kind of person I typically think of as sanctimonious or hypocritical, is that I really believe that Sirius and Lupin were being completely sincere when they assert that James was completely opposed to anything Dark. And my guess would be that James would have been completely sincere in asserting the same thing.
I don't think that Sirius, while saying that James hated dark magic, was thinking, in the back of his mind, that really they did toy with dark things. I don't think any of them ever really thought about it at all -- the fact that they released a darkly cursed creature every month just so they could play with it, or that they created an extremely questionable and possibly dark object.
Like I said before, my feeling about the Marauders, especially James and Sirius, is that they were so convinced that they were the on the good side, by virtue of being Gryffindor and openingly opposing dark magic or Sirius openly rejecting his dark family, that they just assumed that whatever they decided to do wasn't dark, because it was them doing it.
Steve Newton - Sep 16, 2009 9:19 am (#1910 of 1982)
Sirius is certainly a loose cannon. His 'prank' on Snape goes far beyond anything in my definition of the word.
His Black background would seem to have made him a natural Slytherin. I suspect, but can't prove, that he made the choice to go for Gryffindor on the train with James.
Honour - Sep 16, 2009 5:05 pm (#1911 of 1982)
.... Or that maybe James may have had the choice like Harry to go to Slytherin and instead chose Gryffindor .... silently returning back into "lurk mode" : )
Solitaire - Sep 16, 2009 7:15 pm (#1912 of 1982)
I do not think James would ever have considered Slytherin. His anti-Slytherin bias ran too deeply. I doubt the Hat would have even suggested it. I wouldn't have minded hearing the conversation between the Hat and Sirius, however. I wonder if Bella and other members of the Black Clan got a mention ...
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 16, 2009 8:05 pm (#1913 of 1982)
I wouldn't have minded hearing the conversation between the Hat and Sirius, however.
That made me giggle, Soli. I totally agree. I think Sirius is a badboy extraordinaire, perhaps compared to how I see many of Sean Penn's roles on film. Even with all the faults, there is something that makes them full of heart, sincere even when they are not considering others...? Very complex characters, which I adore.
I agree James would not have been sorted into Slytherin. There is a line one needs to cross there, regarding blood class. James was an elitist regarding image; he was superficial. But I think the Potters were not in the "pure-blood mania" loop, and did not pass such leanings onto their son.
Julia H. - Sep 16, 2009 11:48 pm (#1914 of 1982)
Honour, I was wondering what had happened to you.
I don't see James as Slytherin material either. Not all is gold that is Gryffindor.
Sirius is different though:
I suspect, but can't prove, that he made the choice to go for Gryffindor on the train with James. (Steve)
That is how I see it as well. Sirius probably was not originally very keen on necessarily following the family tradition, but it seems it was because he liked James and saw how James despised Slytherins that he decided to be a Gryffindor.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 17, 2009 3:40 am (#1915 of 1982)
I thought Sirius didn't care much for his family's ideals, and was probably never keen on following in their footsteps.
Meeting James may have given him the idea to go for Gryffindor, though, but as a Black he would be sorted first, so he must have been very confident in his choice regardless of whatever House anyone else would end up in.
Interesting that Sirius knew he had a choice, and was willing to excercise it. Or maybe it never occured to him that choice wouldn't be possible.
Solitaire - Sep 18, 2009 7:16 am (#1916 of 1982)
Maybe the Hat saw something in Sirius that the other Blacks didn't have--or didn't see something in him that they did have. From where I sit, Sirius didn't seem to care much about blood purity, power, wealth, or other things we associate with Slytherin. Interestingly, though, the Black he seems most like to me is Bella. Both are hot-headed, reckless, and a bit off-balance. The only difference is their allegiance.
I would like to know the house affiliation of Ted Tonks and Andromeda Black when they were at Hogwarts. Tonks was a Hufflepuff. Is it possible that Andromeda was, as well? If so, then perhaps Sirius saw Hogwarts as a way to finally break away from his family's associations and affiliations, once and for all.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 18, 2009 8:37 am (#1917 of 1982)
Soli, we had a discussion about Andromeda on the 'Slytherin Disbanded' thread. I thought she was in Hufflepuff but apparently canon leads us to the conclusion that all Blacks were in Slytherin prior to Sirius. If you go to the other thread, it was discusssed in recent posts.
edit: I just went to find a link to those posts and noticed you were in on that discussion, Soli
Steve Newton - Sep 18, 2009 8:48 am (#1918 of 1982)
Slughorn speaks of wanting Regulus to complete the set of Blacks. It sounds to me as if Andromeda was a Slytherin.
PeskyPixie - Sep 18, 2009 9:02 am (#1919 of 1982)
Forgive me my Hermione moment, but Slughorn actually speaks of wanting to have had Sirius to complete his set of Blacks.
Dryleaves - Sep 18, 2009 9:09 am (#1920 of 1982)
Insufferable know-it-all!
(Smilies would ruin the effect...)
Steve Newton - Sep 18, 2009 9:29 am (#1921 of 1982)
Well said Dryleaves.
wynnleaf - Sep 18, 2009 10:22 am (#1922 of 1982)
Excellent Pesky! So that makes Andromeda a Slytherin, right?
PeskyPixie - Sep 18, 2009 11:01 am (#1923 of 1982)
I think that she must have been a Slytherin. The only reason we tend to think otherwise is because she marries a Muggleborn, is Sirius's favourite cousin, produces a sweet Hufflepuff kid like Tonks, and helps out the Order.
Dryleaves - Sep 18, 2009 11:42 am (#1924 of 1982)
Sirius says on the train that he might be the one to break the family tradition and be sorted into another house than Slytherin, and we are never told that Andromeda belonged to any other house. That is not evidence, of course, but an indication. She might have broken the family traditions later in life. They sometimes sort too soon, as we know...
PeskyPixie - Sep 18, 2009 11:51 am (#1925 of 1982)
Once again the question arises: Is a person either decent or a Slytherin?
Personally, I think that Andromeda could have been a Slytherin in terms of ambition, brains and cunning to achieve her goals (maybe her goal was Ted. ). She could posses these Slytherin qualities without submitting to her family's nutty views on blood purity.
wynnleaf - Sep 18, 2009 12:36 pm (#1926 of 1982)
If I recall correctly (and I haven't looked it up just lately), it's not an interest in blood purity that gets a person sorted into Slytherin. Salazzar was into blood purity and the House is supposed to not include muggleborns. But the characteristics of those sorted into the House don't necessarily include "elitist and for blood purity". However, those sorted are supposedly highly unlikely to be muggleborn because Slytherin was originally opposed to accepting muggleborns.
Soul Search - Sep 18, 2009 1:22 pm (#1927 of 1982)
What are the relative ages of Andromeda and Sirius? Sirius could have been the first to break the tradition, with Andromeda later.
Was Slughorn talking about Sirius and Regulus as "the set" or all the Blacks? I could see it both ways, but no others are mentioned.
legolas returns - Sep 18, 2009 2:01 pm (#1928 of 1982)
I wanted to go back over a few things
Sirius and James both seem to be very arrogant and seem utterly full of themselves. They were talented and popular. They thought that they were completely invincible. They tended to disregard all forms of rules and to hex people they disliked for the sake of it. They delibrately set about becoming Animagi even though they knew they had to be registered (they were breaking the law) they would be encouraging Lupin to disregard the precautions that were put in place for everyones safety. They looked forward to monthly adventures and did not really stop to consider what they were doing was very dangerous.
Sirius was really against the Dark Arts and hated the home that he grew up in and its pure blood mania. When you use Dark Magic you set out with the intention of delibrately trying to hurt/dominate or potentially kill someone. However much you dislike someone there is no reason to send them down a tunnel to meet a Werewolf. You know that the werewolf would attack any human that they faced. Sending Snape down the tunnel shows an intent like the intent used in Dark arts to harm. The rest of the stuff we see Sirius do to Snape is more in the line of humilation and for the sake of it.
I don't think that Sirius was completely mentally balanced before he went to Azkaban.
It generally seems to be the case that Wizards seem to be impressed with other showing powerful/advanced magical talent regardless of whether they are doing something that is right or wrong. Madame Bones was impressed that Harry could produce a full patronus. Dumbledore said to Harry that it was "extraordinary achievement" that Sirius/James and Peter could become animagi. Terry Boot was really impressed that Hermione could charm the DA coins. Ollivander describes Voldemort as "did great things - terrible, yes but great."
It can also be said that Wizards that are powerful are also arrogant about the skill they have. Voldemort is a case in point. Dumbledore was pleased with himself when he did extraordinary magic e.g his and Snapes skill after the ring incident and making the Mirror of Erised as the final protection for the Philosophers Stone. He only really told Harry about these things rather than the world at large.
Sirius fought against the Dark Arts when he left school. He unfortunately got James to agree to Wormtail being secret keeper. He was convinced that Lupin was the traitor. The problem with this is that he was so convinced that he was right and in in his arrogance he did not consider any alternative. James could not believe that a friend would betray him. The reasoning behind getting James to change secret keeper to Wormtail was not flawed. Evidence for this can be found in Chapter 4/5 DH (the seven potters/fallen Hero) Voldemort assumes that Harry will be with the most powerful protection e.g Mad Eye and then Kingsley. He does not even consider that Harry may be with Hagrid until Harry gives himself away. Voldemort would have been much more likely to go after Sirius. Unfortunatly the weakest Wizard was the traitor.
He did his best to protect Harry although he sometimes could not distinguish between Harry and James.
For all of his faults Sirius lived and died doing what he believed in.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 18, 2009 2:40 pm (#1929 of 1982)
Nice post, legolas! I agree Sirius was brave to the point of recklessness, and IMO immature to the point of perpetual selfishness. That he did his best to protect Harry is, to me, a combination of these traits. Many of the things he did "for Harry" were also for his own needs.
Regarding Andromeda, Slughorn's comment and Sirius's in OP to Harry about his family both are straight canon that Andromeda seems to have been in Slytherin. Perhaps at the age of eleven she was not aware that she could choose to defy her family tradition.
legolas returns - Sep 18, 2009 3:08 pm (#1930 of 1982)
After leaving school Andromeda certainly had a mind of her own and chose to marry a Muggle born. This was against her upbringing and the philosophy of Slytherin. She was Sirius's favourite cousin so she must have been ok when she was younger. I know Lily and Snape were friends but generally you don't see Slytherin and Gryffindor mix that much.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 18, 2009 7:08 pm (#1931 of 1982)
I had always assumed Andromeda was a Hufflepuff, and not included in the "Black family" that Slughorn and Sirius were referring to. I saw it more as the immediate family and ascendents of Sirius. But its all how you interpret it, I guess. I thought Sirius had made mention of his entire family being Slytherins in OP when he is showing Harry the family tree, but I can't recall for sure. Sirius does make the comment to James in the Memory on the train in The Prince's Tale.
There's an interesting discussion on the HP wikipedia about this subject: **http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Black_Family_in_Slytherin
Solitaire - Sep 18, 2009 7:54 pm (#1932 of 1982)
I guess I interpreted "the set" to mean the two Black brothers, Sirius and Regulus. I do not yet admit that I am wrong.
I get the idea that Andromeda was older, Soul Search, based on Tonks's age. She was about 23, I think, which would make Andromeda at least 40, even if she had Tonks right out of Hogwarts. I've often wondered if Andromeda and Bella were twins, given they looked so much alike.
Orion - Sep 19, 2009 5:02 am (#1933 of 1982)
The reason why nobody wants Andromeda to be in Slytherin is that nobody can imagine a nice girl like her to be in a House that everybody thinks only holds monsters. Why can't Andromeda not be a cunning, ambitious Slytherin who is completely happy with her House, fervently shouts for them in Quidditch matches and still has no problems with falling in love with a nice Hufflepuff boy named Ted Tonks and choosing him over her family?
Edited to add: What I mean is: If you fall in love with somebody suddenly you might reconsider the values of your family. You grew up with muggle-born-haters, then you meet a nice muggle-born, and then you think, oh, muggle-borns are not so bad after all, you come home for the holidays and tell them about your new boyfriend, there is an allmighty family row and your choice is clear even if it means that you're not welcome any more. Every family who throws out a member simply because of the wrong boyfriend or girlfriend is mental anyway.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 19, 2009 6:24 am (#1934 of 1982)
Beware the Strawman!
I seriously doubt "nobody" and "everybody" hold the same opinion about any one thing for exactly the same reasons. That would be really odd, and wouldn't leave much to discuss.
That said, I've always assumed that Andromeda was in Slytherin given Slughorn's and Sirius's information. It's probable that some other Order members or independent opposers of Voldemort were also former Slytherins, and that some of the family members and shop keepers who returned to the final battle with Slughorn were also former Slytherins. We aren't given the former House affiliations of most of the adults we meet in the books, other than the many Gryffindors.
Honour - Sep 19, 2009 6:32 am (#1935 of 1982)
Sorry guys just sending a quick "hey there!" wave to Julie H, before quitetly going back into "lurk mode" again. : )
By the by what's wrong with the idea of James being considered by the hat to be Slytherin material? As was mentioned a few posts back James also exhibits typical Sytherin characteristics, is arrogant, is of pure blood, enjoys hexing people ... Even Harry was asked to consider Slytherin by the hat so why not his Dad? ... and as this is the Sirius thread ...
Mayhaps Sirius was offered the same deal but in reverse, or mayhaps he "did a Harry" and whispered "not Slytherin, not Slytherin ..."
... returning back into "lurking mode" : )
Madam Pince - Sep 19, 2009 7:39 am (#1936 of 1982)
For what it's worth, I also always considered that all Hogwarts students with the last name of "Black" had been in Slytherin, prior to Sirius. (This based on the "I'd have liked the set" and the info Sirius gave us.) So for me that includes Bella, Cissy, and Andromeda.
JKR indicated in interviews that Slytherin had some "what-we'd-consider-'good'-students" in it -- she just did a very poor job of firming up that assertion with canon examples, especially with the final Hogwarts Battle, which I consider to be one of her biggest failings with the series. She spent all this time talking about "choices" and how not everyone's either DE or good-guy, and then she let a golden opportunity drop when she failed to fully describe who was battling who in the Final Battle. But alas earwax.
So anyway, chalk me up in the "Sirius was the only non-Slytherin Black" club...
Solitaire - Sep 19, 2009 10:09 am (#1937 of 1982)
She spent all this time talking about "choices" and how not everyone's either DE or good-guy, and then she let a golden opportunity drop when she failed to fully describe who was battling who in the Final Battle.
I agree. The only Slytherin we saw fighting against Voldemort (not counting Snape, who is dead by this time) was Slughorn. However, he dueled him directly, so that was a pretty good indicator of where his loyalties lay ... for those around him who were confused. By the time the Malfoys got to the castle, they were past dueling, I suppose. The fact that they stayed at Hogwarts after the battle--when they could have attempted to flee--could mean they had decided to take their lumps.
As to Sirius and the Hat ... I'm guessing that Hat noticed at once that there was something different about Sirius ... that he was not a "typical" Black. Perhaps it had heard about Sirius ("ungrateful grandson") from Phineas in DD's office and knew what to expect! LOL
wynnleaf - Sep 19, 2009 4:39 pm (#1938 of 1982)
Some interesting thoughts Legolas. Very good points about wizards, good and bad, being impressed with power and magical ability.
When you use Dark Magic you set out with the intention of delibrately trying to hurt/dominate or potentially kill someone. (Legolas)
Unfortunately, we don't know whether or not this is true in JKR's world. Many of us have speculated that intent is important in whether or not something is dark, but JKR doesn't show us this. Almost the contrary, as she says that all curses are dark, and yet has her good characters use many curses. And Snape uses Sectumsempra in order to defend an Order member, but while the intent is good, it's still a dark curse.
Unfortunatly the weakest Wizard was the traitor. (Legolas)
Whether or not Peter was truly the weakest wizard (in terms of sheer magical ability) is debatable. Certainly Sirius, James and Lupin considered him less able, but he was able to trick them consistently for some time and apparently tricked DD as well, since Peter got in the Order. He was able to pull of a complex faking of his own death and kill numerous people in, apparently, one blow (one magical spell of some kind). And while his friends helped him become an animagas, he was able to do it, which apparently is something rather rare, help or no help.
Solitaire - Sep 19, 2009 5:43 pm (#1939 of 1982)
Edited Dec 10, 2009 7:31 pm
Peter was certainly cowardly, but it doesn't necessarily follow that he was not a talented wizard ... although McGonagall (if I'm remembering correctly from the Three Broomsticks conversation in PoA) did not think much of his talent when he was in school. The fears he expressed in the Shack in PoA make him seem weak, but that could be put-on, too.
Interestingly, I think that killing all of those Muggles in the process of faking his own death is probably an indicator of lack of talent. I believe that a more talented wizard could have pulled off the job without killing innocent bystanders. Then again, as Voldemort's agent, Peter has already proven that he does not care much about the innocent, so perhaps he didn't even try to spare them. JM2K.
PeskyPixie - Dec 10, 2009 10:08 am (#1940 of 1982)
"I still wonder why Dumbledore so readily believed Sirius had betrayed the Potters." -Soul Search (on the Snape thread)
I wonder whether Sirius's family background also made it easier for people to believe the worst about him so quickly?
Soul Search - Dec 10, 2009 3:38 pm (#1941 of 1982)
I thought a bit after making that statement and had some further thoughts:
While James may have had a better rep with Dumbledore and others, I am not sure Sirius enjoyed good opinions of himself. Things we saw like the Snape prank and his attack on Snape in the OotP pensieve memory suggest he may not have been all that popular with Dumbledore and others. His actions, and family background, may well have supported the idea he would betray James. If Lupin believed it, certainly most others would.
Dumbledore may not have had any reason to go to bat for Sirius, in spite of Sirius being in the Order. Sirius may have been not much more than a "loose cannon." Dumbledore wouldn't use him for anything in OotP, and previous Order experience may have been why.
Viola Intonada - Dec 11, 2009 7:13 am (#1942 of 1982)
Remember, at the time, they knew that someone in the Order was a traitor, but they didn't know who. It could have been anyone, no one was above suspicion. I think that they would have accepted it being Lupin or Peter just as easily as they accepted it being Sirius.
Suspicion was one of Voldemort's tools for disabling his enemies. It is difficult to fight against something as you are continually looking over your shoulder to make sure you are not getting stabbed in the back.
Lupin would have been under suspicion because he was a werewolf. Sirius would have been under suspicion because his family had been Slytherins and his brother was a Death Eater. Peter was under less suspicion because he was looked upon as an inferior wizard and was seen to worship the ground that Sirius and James walked on.
Thom Matheson - Dec 11, 2009 10:10 am (#1943 of 1982)
There was also lots of muggles that saw the fight with Peter before the explosion and then only found Peter's finger. So 2 + 2 = Sirius guilty
Soul Search - Dec 11, 2009 1:15 pm (#1944 of 1982)
What must have really convinced everyone that Sirius was guilty was his own lack of effort to set the record straight. It is his own fault he had to spend 12 years in Azkaban. Yes, he felt guilty because he had switched to Peter for secret keeper, but still ...
The ministry probably didn't give him a trial because he never protested his innocence. He, likely, even mumbled something like "its all my fault" so the Ministry thought that a confession.
I have to believe, had Sirius claimed to be innocent, he would have had some support from friends and the Order.
Honour - Dec 11, 2009 3:45 pm (#1945 of 1982)
"I have to believe, had Sirius claimed to be innocent, he would have had some support from friends and the Order." - Soul Search
I don't know so much Soul Search. Lily and James were a very popular couple. As mentioned the "Black" family had a bad reputaion, Sirius of course had a death eater brother, I think that as in Hagrid's case no one investigated deep enough.
And saddest of all his "friends" well, James who knew and I think trusted and loved Sirius the most was dead, Lupin's word would have been looked upon with suspicion because of his "little furry problem". I don't even think Lupin would have even spoken up for Sirius such was Lupin's weak character, and as for Peter well, we all know about him.
I think that if Sirius was allowed to have been able to bring up Harry he would have fought the charges against him. I think that when Hagrid was sent by Dumbledore to collect Harry and they met Sirius and Hagrid let Sirius know that DD had sent him, I think that Sirius read (well this is what I read in the situation):
1. Dumbledore believed that Sirius was the spy and contributed to to the murder of Harry's parents and was taking Harry "to safety", even though Sirius was Harry's godfather.
2. And if Dumbledore believed that Sirius was guilty then so would the rest of the Wizarding World. After all Harry was taken into DD's custody before Peter was supposed to have been murdered by Sirius.
So the only other option Sirius had left open to him was to find Peter because only Sirius alone (now) knew that Peter was the secret keeper. I would like to think that Sirius was going to bring Peter in to prove his innocence, but instead he walked into the perfect trap. So yes, in the end I believe that Sirius did go a little crazy, because "little untalented Peter Pettigrew" had pulled off the impossible of being a spy for Voldermort right under everyone's noses. Peter had a hand in killing James and Lily, fingered Sirius for these and the murders of the muggles, probably was the instigator of suspicion and mistrust between Sirius and Lupin and anyone one else in the Wizarding World that Peter could repeat these tales to.
James was the brother that Sirius chose and the Potter's were the family that embraced him whole-heartedly, so yes, wracked with guilt, probably raging with anger for himself because he was deceived so easily by Peter, and knowing that Dumbledore would keep Harry safe,(Sirius probably thought at the time that he had nothing to offer the boy anyway) I think Sirius just succumbed to the insanity of the situation and allowed himself to be taken away to Azkhaban...
Soul Search - Dec 11, 2009 6:52 pm (#1946 of 1982)
Honour, very good assessment. I agree.
azi - Apr 28, 2010 10:58 am (#1947 of 1982)
I was reading POA the other day and something started bugging me. When Sirius, James and Peter became animagi they kept it secret while at school, which I completely understand (I'm sure there's some rule against it somewhere...). However, why, when they became members of the Order of the Phoenix, did they not tell Dumbledore what they had achieved?
The ability to change into an animal is a very useful one for the sort of work they'd have done for the Order. Surely, after being out of school for a few years, it wouldn't matter that they managed it in school (you wouldn't have to mention that little detail anyway...). If Dumbledore had known they had that ability then it could have been used to the Order's advantage. By withholding the information they were potentially decreasing the number of opportunities to help defeat Voldemort.
One reason I considered was that they didn't want to get in trouble with the Ministry. However, I don't think it would have mattered as the old Order members describe the Ministry as being in chaos at that time. It probably wasn't upholding law and order particularly well. Sirius and James weren't exactly law-abiding types anyway so I don't think they would have cared if people knew they'd broken the law.
There are two other possibilities that I can think of;
A) Remus wanted to keep it secret because he felt bad at what happened at Hogwarts (night time exploration, taking advantage of Dumbledore's trust etc.) and they obliged.
B) They decided to keep it secret in case the information was leaked to Voldemort, which would have put them in more danger. I don't think it would have been necessary to tell everyone in the Order about the skill - just telling Dumbledore would have made him aware of the advantage and allow him to use it effectively.
Any thoughts? Am I making a mountain of a molehill? Sometimes it feels like over-analysis...
Soul Search - Apr 28, 2010 11:39 am (#1948 of 1982)
Azi, You cited some pretty good reasons for the four friends to keep their childhood secret. Additionally, they could use an animagi advantage for the Order, without anyone being aware of it. It was THEIR secret; that is, something shared among the four friends which might be sullied if others knew. They had kept the secret for a number of years and saw no reason to let anyone else in on it. Having the secret among the four friends out weighed any possible advantage of Dumbledore knowing it.
azi - Apr 28, 2010 11:53 am (#1949 of 1982)
I can't help but think it was very childish of them to continue to keep it a secret, but I guess Sirius is a good example that they didn't really mature anyway. I suppose I'm just interpreting it as them not trusting anyone else with the secret rather than them not seeing any point in telling others.
I wonder if Lily knew they were animagi?
Soul Search - Apr 28, 2010 4:59 pm (#1950 of 1982)
Azi, a few more thoughts. While they were friends before thay became animagi, they became the MARAUDERS when they could change and run with Remus. I would think they would run with Remus even after they left Hogwarts. Remus still had the problem and still would appreciate the help of his friends.
Lily would have learned Remus was a werewolf, if she didn't know from Snape's chiding at Hogwarts. Given that, she would learn James was an animagi. They were close enough that James would tell her, anyway. He might have even given her a ride, every now and then.
Julia H. - Apr 28, 2010 10:05 pm (#1951 of 1982)
Interesting questions. The Marauders seem to have been a group where friendship was to a large extent based on secrets known exclusively by the four of them (and later maybe Lily?) - or at least these secrets seem to be an important theme in their relationship. (Perhaps that was a reason why James refused Dumbledore as Secret Keeper and insisted on choosing a Marauder despite the warning.) It is indeed probable that the monthly night time adventures continued even after Hogwarts.
If they had registered as Animagi, that would have meant some official control over them, which they clearly did not want. If they had told their secret to Dumbledore alone (for the sake of the Order), Dumbledore might have asked questions like why and how long, and Lupin was very reluctant even after a decade and a half to confess how he had betrayed Dumbledore's trust and broken the rules at Hogwarts.
As for Lily, we know that she knew their nicknames, so perhaps (but not necessarily) she knew the origin of the nicknames, too. Even if the adventures continued, James could have simply told her that he was going out with his friends - unless Lily knew about Lupin's condition. In that case, she must have wondered how they were going out during the full moon, so then she was probably told.
On the other hand, this is what we find in Lily's letter to Padfoot:
"James is getting a bit frustrated shut up here, he tries not to show it but I can tell – also Dumbledore’s still got his Invisibility Cloak, so no chance of little excursions."
However, James could have taken walks as a stag - of course, it would have been very dangerous since Wormtail had probably informed Voldemort about their Animagus forms, but James obviously did not expect that. But maybe wandering as a stag would not have been such fun alone. Or Lily did not know about it and it would have been hard to explain. Or she did know about it and she disapproved of James taking that risk.
Solitaire - Apr 28, 2010 10:45 pm (#1952 of 1982)
We know of 4 unregistered Animagi: James, Sirius, Peter, and Rita. I wonder how many others there are out there?
One disadvantage to not telling Dumbledore their secret is that knowledge of Peter's Animagus form might have given DD pause when Sirius was arrested. If he had known that they were Animagi, DD might have taken the opportunity to question Sirius about why he didn't just change form and escape ... and investigate whether Peter might not have done just that. BTW, I see Prongs as being a less helpful Animagus form than Padfoot or Wormtail in various Order doings. Dogs (even big ones) and rats can go anywhere without attracting too much attention. A stag ... ? Unless the work was out in the forest somewhere, it would be far too conspicuous. JM2K ...
mona amon - Apr 29, 2010 12:33 am (#1953 of 1982)
I'm not sure how useful being an animagus would have been to the Order. Remember the way Bella AKs that fox, thinking it just might be an auror, and we never see Mcgonnagal using her Animagus form for Order work.
I also agree that James stag form would have been way too conspicuous.
Solitaire - Apr 29, 2010 6:19 am (#1954 of 1982)
we never see Mcgonnagal using her Animagus form for Order work
She certainly used it to spy on--or should I say observe--the Dursleys, although that was probably not Order business. Anyway, while Vernon noticed her, it was only because she was reading a map or something. (Sorry ... no books handy.) We really do not know if she ever used her Animagus form to work for the Order or not. She might have done so in the early days. Dumbledore didn't seem especially surprised to see her in her cat form at Privet Drive, which makes me believe that she must have used that form often enough. She would seem more likely to have used it in Order work than in teaching. JM2K, of course.
wynnleaf - May 2, 2010 11:23 am (#1955 of 1982)
The idea that they didn't tell DD because Lupin didn't want them to is possible. If Lupin didn't to tell DD even when everyone thought children were being endangered and he knew Sirius could escape by being an animagus, then it's fairly likely that he'd have also not wanted to tell DD years earlier. However, I find it hard to picture James and Sirius avoiding telling DD solely because Lupin was uncomfortable with it. Maybe they would do that, but it seems more likely - if James and Sirius had wanted to tell DD - that they'd have laughed off Lupin's fears of DD's displeasure, maybe encouraged Lupin a bit, and told DD anyway.
My guess is that they viewed it as their secret between themselves and never even considered telling DD. And if they had considered it at all, Lupin's worries would probably have been seconded by Peter (for reasons of his own, of course), making two of the Marauders against any thought of telling DD.
Honour - May 3, 2010 6:12 am (#1956 of 1982)
Actually Wynleaf I think not telling Dumbledore for Lupin's sake would be exactly what James and Sirius would do. (Did I misunderstand you?) Any who, James had already demonstrated to his and Lily's demise that he trusted no one higher than his friends, so if one said friend did not want it to be known that the other were animagus /animagi(?) in order to protect said friend then I can not see James or Sirius breaking that trust, not even for Dumbledore.
After all they kept their secret through their school days and for 13 years after James had died and - it was only to Jame's son and his trusted friends that they shared this knowledge with.
Soul Search - May 3, 2010 11:05 am (#1957 of 1982)
I agree with the way this topic has evolved: The Marauders told no one about their animagi forms, for any or all of the reasons suggested. (Except, no way could James not show off for Lily.)
Voldemort knew Pettigrew could take the form of a rat. He mentions it in one of his discourses. Pettigrew probably told Voldemort of the Marauder animagi capability when he turned traitor. Don't see that it made much difference, though.
Julia H. - May 3, 2010 1:19 pm (#1958 of 1982)
Except, no way could James not show off for Lily. (Soul Search)
LOL, good point.
Don't see that it made much difference, though.
Not in the Marauder era, but later, when Sirius was hiding from the aurors and the Dementors, Lucius Malfoy recognized him as Padfoot at King's Cross. The fact that Pettigrew knew about his Animagus form, was the reason why Sirius was not usually allowed to go out even as Padfoot. Apparently, Voldemort did not only know what his Animagus form was, but he was also aware that Sirius was still a fierce protector of Harry - at least the information of the Padfoot form was important enough for Voldemort to share it with Lucius. My guess is that Lucius may have let the Ministry know it, too (without mentioning the source of the information, obviously).
PeskyPixie - Jul 26, 2010 8:41 am (#1959 of 1982)
Edited Jul 26, 2010 9:41 am
All this talk of animagi makes me wonder when Snape knew of the Marauders' animal forms? At the end of GoF he is surprised (to put it lightly) when the big black dog turns into Sirius. However, since Lily's death, his patronus has apparently been a doe. How would he know the significance of his patronus without knowing that James is a stag?
Hieronymus Graubart - Jul 26, 2010 8:50 am (#1960 of 1982)
May Severus know that Lily's patronus was a doe, but not be aware of the doe's significance (the stag relation)?
PeskyPixie - Jul 26, 2010 9:25 am (#1961 of 1982)
Do we know for a fact that Lily's patronus was a doe?
Solitaire - Jul 26, 2010 9:43 am (#1962 of 1982)
I do not think it is stated, exactly, but Dumbledore certainly understood the significance of the doe in The Prince's Tale. He would have known what Lily's Patronus was, wouldn't he?
Soul Search - Jul 26, 2010 7:18 pm (#1963 of 1982)
Developing a patronus would have been done in a classroom, so one's patronus form would have been public knowledge.
Solitaire - Jul 26, 2010 8:18 pm (#1964 of 1982)
Edited Jul 26, 2010 9:19 pm
Did students do this in class? The O.W.L. examiners seemed to find it pretty incredible, and not only because of Harry's age. Didn't Hermione say that lots of wizards couldn't do it?
Hieronymus Graubart - Jul 26, 2010 11:45 pm (#1965 of 1982)
Dementors are covered in advanced DADA during the sixth year. So this would be the time when students should try to create a patronus, at least if their teacher doesn't say that there are better ways to defend themselves against dementors.
Julia H. - Jul 27, 2010 1:55 am (#1966 of 1982)
Edited Jul 27, 2010 3:00 am
We never find out for a fact if the Patronus Charm is taught at Hogwarts or not. Lupin talks about it as extremely difficult magic, at OWL level it is considered very impressive, but we also know that most of the DA members learn it. Snape manages to skip it in his DADA class, and he has his own reason, but could he do it if it was compulsory NEWT material? (Then again, he probably suspects that the students in that class are not going to have normal NEWT exams...)
If the Patronus Charm is taught at Hogwarts, then it is easy to know about each other's Patronuses - which can be quite embarrassing sometimes - and in that case Snape may have known about Lily's Patronus early on. But I also like the idea that his Patronus became a doe without Snape's prior knowledge about the shape of Lily's Patronus, and he found out the truth from Dumbledore, who must have known the Patronuses of all Order members.
How would he know the significance of his patronus without knowing that James is a stag? (Pesky)
The significance of his Patronus is with reference to Lily, and I don't think Snape would have been very interested in the "stag aspect" of Lily's Patronus or that he could know of the Marauders' Animagus skills before the end of PoA or even before the end of GoF.
I wonder if Dumbledore gives Snape some explanation after PoA when Snape calms down a little (I think he should) and how much confidential information he tells him about Sirius. At the end of GoF, it does seem that Snape does not mind the big black dog until he sees the dog change into Sirius - but at least he does not seem to think any more that Sirius is a murderer and a traitor. Then again, if Dumbledore tells him anything about Pettigrew, he must tell him about Pettigrew being an Animagus, otherwise the story does not make sense.
Do we know for a fact that Lily's patronus was a doe? (Pesky)
As Solitaire says, Dumbledore makes the connection between Lily and the doe, and what other connection could there be? (Unless Lily was an Animagus as well, which is unlikely.) Harry certainly understands it that way. Also, when Harry sees the doe in the forest, he is struck by her "inexplicable familiarity" (or something similar). It is possible that he saw his mother's Patronus when he was a baby, and that is why the doe looks familiar, even though he does not have conscious memories of her.
Solitaire - Jul 27, 2010 5:23 am (#1967 of 1982)
I always found it interesting that Tonks's Patronus changed. I'd always thought she changed it on purpose, but that can't be, can it? Surely, if Patronus forms can be deliberately altered, Snape would have changed his own in order to teach the spell and not give anything away. It seems that one's Patronus is very closely linked with one's heart ... and who one is.
Remember DD's comment to Harry: "You think the dead we loved ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him. How else could you produce that particular Patronus? Prongs rode again last night."
I would guess that Snape was thinking about Lily more than ever with Harry in such peril that night in the forest. (Of course, that scene also reminded me of a dream Harry had in the third book. I can't remember where it is right now, and I don't have my book handy, but I'm sure someone can find the scene.)
mona amon - Jul 27, 2010 6:15 am (#1968 of 1982)
Edited Jul 27, 2010 7:23 am
Do we know for a fact that Lily's patronus was a doe? (Pesky)
Good to see you again, Pesky!
Harry states very definitely to Voldemort, "Snape's patronus was a doe, the same as my mother's", but we're not told when and how he found out.
We also do not know whether Severus knew Lily's patronus was a doe, only that he instinctively connected it with her.
Solitaire - Jul 27, 2010 6:47 am (#1969 of 1982)
I think Harry must have drawn that conclusion from watching Snape's memories in the Pensieve. Do you suppose James's Patronus was also a stag? I'm trying to remember how many Patronuses we have seen cast by Wizards who are Animagi and whether or not the two forms were the same.
Julia H. - Jul 27, 2010 6:50 am (#1970 of 1982)
Edited Jul 27, 2010 7:56 am
I think there is only one case mentioned in the books: Minerva's Patronus is the same as her Animagus form, a cat.
It makes it possible that James's Patronus was a stag, but it is not specifically stated.
I don't think there any other characters (besides Minerva) whose Animagus and Patronus forms we both know.
It is also remarkable that James Potter's best friend's Animagus form is a dog, while Harry Potter's best friend's Patronus is a dog. Two different persons, but they are both important in the books as friends.
PeskyPixie - Jul 28, 2010 7:43 am (#1971 of 1982)
Edited Jul 28, 2010 8:44 am
Hi mona.
Lily is only a doe because James is a stag. To me, there is no other way to connect a doe to Lily. However, as Snape was so deeply in love with her, I guess he figured it out instinctively. Or else, as others have stated, Dumbledore told him the significance of it as he knew the patronuses of all order members. Hmmm, I wonder what Snape's patronus was prior to Lily's death?
Julia H. - Jul 28, 2010 8:26 am (#1972 of 1982)
Edited Jul 28, 2010 9:33 am
Lily is only a doe because James is a stag.
Maybe, although it is possible that other characteristics - grace, beauty, femininity, innocence etc. - also link Lily to a doe. But it is quite possible that she is a doe mainly because James is a stag. Still, I don't think Snape's Patronus is interested in why Lily is a doe, and I don't think Snape has to know about the stag to understand the significance of his Patronus being the same as Lily's.
By the way, I am told that the doe and the stag belong to different species. The mate of the stag is usually a hind, while the mate of the doe is usually a buck. If that is true, what does that imply about the relationship between James and Lily? If Lily became a doe because James was a stag, but got the wrong species, would that mean that she made a major mistake? (About the size that Hagrid's father made?)
Hmmm, I wonder what Snape's patronus was prior to Lily's death?
Aaah, what a question to discuss! ***contemplates running away*** I love Patronus lore.
Solitaire - Jul 28, 2010 9:24 am (#1973 of 1982)
I looked up several links on stag, deer, hart, and hind, and so far, they all refer to kinds of deer. Possibly, Jo (and Lily?) connected them the same way. I don't think the difference between a doe and a hind is significant enough to say that Lily made a mistake.
What is Tonks's new Patronus--a wolf or werewolf? Do we know what it was before that?
Hieronymus Graubart - Jul 29, 2010 6:44 am (#1974 of 1982)
Well, I'm sure the difference between a doe and a hind is significant to the stag and the roebuck .
Do most humans who aren't zoologists call every female deer a doe and every male deer a stag?
Although we have a similar habit in Germany, the translator tried to correct Jo's (or Lily's?) mistake and called the Reh (doe) a Hirschkuh (hind). Now I wonder if this mistake was made on purpose and we got another translational error
No, we don't really know anything about Tonk's old Patronus, and we don't have enough information to decide if the new one is a wolf or a werewolf. But if we consider this to be a werewolf in it's (his?) animal state couldn't we also ask if Harry's Patronus is a stag or an animagus?
Chemyst - Jul 30, 2010 5:13 pm (#1975 of 1982)
Edited Jul 30, 2010 6:29 pm
Oh my goodness! You all are right! ...and that got me to thinking about the classic Disney movie, Bambi. Bambi's father was a 'stag.' My search engine enlightened me: The movie was based on an Austrian book and Bambi's original species was roe deer native to Europe. The movie-Bambi is American white-tail. (sigh) Movie makers think they can change anything, don't they? That could be part of the reason people don't make the distinction. They see the movie as kids, don't know any better, and no one ever corrects them.
Do most humans who aren't zoologists call every female deer a doe and every male deer a stag?
I think you'd have to include deer hunters with the zoologists; they hunt bucks here.
Lily is only a doe because James is a stag.
I hope not. I hope James was a stag because Lily was destined to be a doe. It is a power thing. I'd rather have James change for her than have Lily give up who she was.
(I expect most male posters will disagree... being a power thing and all.)
...as an afterthought, when a couple is getting married, why do the guys have a stag party and the girls have a hen party?
Solitaire - Jul 30, 2010 5:50 pm (#1976 of 1982)
Edited Jul 30, 2010 6:55 pm
I hope James was a stag because Lily was destined to be a doe. It is a power thing. I'd rather have James change for her than have Lily give up who she was.
If Patronus charms are taught in 6th year, that would be after James perfected his Animagus form. Was his Patronus also a stag? If he and Lily were truly in love by that point, it could be why her Patronus was a doe. Or perhaps it took that form because she knew by this point that he was an Animagus. I'm not a male, Chemyst, but I don't think it has anything to do with power. I think it has to do with strength of feeling and where one's head and heart are. Lily was in love with James, but did she have control over the form her Patronus took? Snape remained in love with Lily, and that seems to be why his Patronus is also a doe. Or maybe it is because he granted James so much power over him (with his obsessions). Hard to say ...
mona amon - Jul 31, 2010 4:13 am (#1977 of 1982)
Edited Jul 31, 2010 5:16 am
I think Lily and James are the only couple we know of who have related patronuses. Tonks case is slightly different because it was the shock of Remus's rejection of her that caused her patronus to change to represent him. If Remus had agreed he loved her right from the start, she would probably have retained her old patronus, whatever that was - the one Severus 'likes' better than her wolf/werewolf one. Hermione's and Ron's patronuses are not even of the same family, and neither are Harry's and Ginny's.
This relationship of Lily's patronus to James's animagus form shows, IMO, that they were soulmates, and is not a power thing.
But poor Severus! It seems like he cannot have anything of Lily's that isn't also strongly connected to James or the Marauders. He has to tear away James before he can have a picture of her. He has to tear away her signature from a letter to a Marauder. In a way it serves him right for continuing to be obsessed with a girl who chose someone else instead of trying to move on, but it's still sad.
And bringing this back to topic, I think it's possible that while he was aware of Sirius's animagus form ( and Peter's) after POA, he may never have known that James had an illegal animagus form related to Lily's patronus, now his own. Dumbledore usually doesn't tell anyone more than they need to know.
Julia H. - Aug 9, 2010 2:48 am (#1978 of 1982)
Edited Aug 9, 2010 3:55 am
I hope James was a stag because Lily was destined to be a doe. It is a power thing. I'd rather have James change for her than have Lily give up who she was. (Chemyst)
Perhaps it is a power thing, but the relationship may be more complicated. The Patronus of Tonks changed because of Lupin. (Could it become a female wolf? Hm.) Still, I feel that this attempt to break up was about the only time when Lupin tried to be the stronger one in their relationship. It seems Tonks insisted on the relationship to start with, later Lupin married her against his better judgement, and it was Tonks who wanted to have a child in the first place. Finally, when Lupin thought she was at home with little Teddy, she made her own decision and followed Lupin to the battle.
Back to Lily and James: I can see a lot more independent reason for James to be a stag than for Lily to be a doe. Or more precisely, I think the stag is a perfect animal representation of James's character. A stag is an animal that lives in a herd (is that the right word in the case of deer?), where males fight for dominance and ... well, mating rights. James seems to be a very competitive teenage boy, who wants to have a leader's position in his own group, and who also happens to be a school sports hero (Quidditch is also about beating the opponent), and he wants the most beautiful and popular girl.
Besides, while one's Patronus can represent where one's heart lies, the stag is James's Animagus form (as well?), which may be more about who the wizard really is (character-wise). So I find it more probable that Lily became a doe because James was a stag than the other way round. Whether this was a power issue or not ... It does seem that in the Lily - Snape friendship Lily was the more powerful one, but in the Lily - James relationship... - not necessarily.
Since this is the Sirius Black thread... His Animagus form seems to represent him as a friend in the first place - the faithful dog - while James is the alpha male of the group. It is bitterly ironic that everyone thinks him a traitor for such a long time. Would Dumbledore have had doubts if he had only known about this Animagus form after the tragedy in Godric's Hollow? Any thoughts?
Odo the Hero - Aug 14, 2010 11:23 am (#1979 of 1982)
I think it is likely that James and Lily were intrinsically compatible with one another, and that the similarity of their Patronuses reflects that, rather than that one or the other of their Patronuses changed when they fell in love. Of course, it would be helpful to know more about the Patronuses of other magical couples before and after the beginning of their relationships.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 14, 2010 9:15 pm (#1980 of 1982)
Edited Aug 14, 2010 10:17 pm
I think it is worthy that James and Lily had mutually intrinsic partners for Patronuses. The fact that Severus had Lily's Patronus rather than a partner for her's reveals a few things to me, that he was possibly more on the "obsessive love" tendency than James -- or at the very least the "yearning for what we cannot have" reflection, i.e., Tonks's morphed Patronus. But his Patronus formed after her death, and this to me is most important regarding why it is what it is.
I think it is worth discussing how all of these Patronuses formed after James and Lily fell in love, and what that reflects.
Maybe this shouldn't be discussed on the Sirius thread...?
Chemyst - Aug 15, 2010 5:44 pm (#1981 of 1982)
Edited Aug 15, 2010 6:50 pm
OK, there is a James and Lily thread under other magical people — Wizards, Witches, Muggles, etc Group Section Folder.
I will post there and pehaps a moderator will put it on the front page again.
Solitaire - Aug 15, 2010 6:31 pm (#1982 of 1982)
Maybe we need a thread on Patronuses and Animagus forms. I checked the various group folders and could not find one.
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