Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:03 pm

This is an archive of the below titled thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum (HPLF) as it existed on World Crossing (WX) until WX ceased operation on 15 April 2011. ~ John

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map


Alex Brockwell - Jan 13, 2005 3:23 am
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 1:57 am

I have made the following edits to the original post:
  • 1. Changed title from Descrepancies in relation to Peter Pettigrew and Sirius Black - "The Marauders Map".
  • 2. Removed all references to Alex's comments about following Kip's suggestions on changes to the original thread.
  • 3. Added ending quotation mark in first paragraph, even though this is not the complete or exact quotation.
  • 4. Removed "have been amended to point form, with" from second paragraph and added "concern."
  • 5. Corrected some spelling and capitalization errors, plus added some HTML tags.
  • 6. Changed "FGW" to "Fred and George".
  • 7. Edited Alex Brockwell's last two paragraphs and last sentence.
  • 8. Added the complete text at the bottom of this post.
  • 9. Moved to appropriate folder.
- Kip 7:51am 13 Jan 2005
——————————


JKR's official website's FAQ lists a question regarding the Marauder's Map. In particular, it is asking why Fred and George never saw Peter Pettigrew on the map, prior to POA. JKR's response to this was along the lines of "even if they did see Peter Pettigrew, it would not matter, because only those close to SiriusJamesLily would have known who he truly was." She goes on to say that the Weasleys never even knew Sirius until he escaped from Azkaban.

The following questions concern each individual point querying a different angle of the same issue with JKR's explanation:

Wasn't Sirius a member of the original Order of the Phoenix?
Wasn't Peter Pettigrew also in the original Order? (OoTP states this, with Moody showing a photo of the original Order)
Weren't the Weasleys part of the original Order?
If so, didn't Arthur and Molly know Peter Pettigrew?
Being that in the days after where Voldemort was killed, when Sirius "killed" Pettigrew, wasn't Sirius talked about in the entire wizarding community?
Didn't everyone know the story of Sirius Black?
Didn't everyone know why he was imprisoned?


So in closing, Sirius Black was supposedly one of the most dangerous magical criminals in their world. Doesn't it stand to reason then, that if this story was known by all wizarding kind, that Fred and George would have heard of Peter Pettigrew as well?

Just thoughts, and I might be wrong. This is my (second) first post to the HPL Forums, so I hope I've made it a good one. What are your thoughts?

——————————
Text of actual FAQ on J.K. Rowling's website added by Kip:

Why didn't Fred and George notice Peter Pettigrew on the Marauder's Map before ("Prisoner of Azkaban")?

It would not have mattered if they had. Unless somebody was very familiar with the story of Sirius Black (and after all, Sirius was not Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's best friend - indeed, they never knew him until after he escaped from Azkaban), Fred and George would be unlikely to know or remember that Peter Pettigrew was the person Sirius had (supposedly) murdered. Even if Fred and George HAD head the story at some point, why would they assume that the ‘Peter Pettigrew’ they occasionally saw moving around the map was, in fact, the man murdered years before?

Fred and George used the map for their own mischief-making; so they concentrated, natually renough, on those portions of the map where they were planning their next misdeeds. And finally, you must not forget that hundreds of little dots are moving around the map at any given time... Fred and George did not know everyone in school by name, so a single unfamiliar name was unlikely to stand out.

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 1 to 10 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:04 pm


popkin - Jan 13, 2005 3:43 am (#1 of 167)
Edited by Jan 13, 2005 2:44 am

Alex, Molly was definitely not in the original Order, but there is a current debate on the Forum (I think it's in the Photograph Moody Showed Harry thread) about whether Arthur was. I think it was JKR's intention to lead us to believe that he was not, but since JKR doesn't explicitly tell us he was not in the Order when Ron was a baby, it could turn out that he was a member without Molly's knowledge.

Regardless, you raise an interesting point about Sirius being an infamous criminal (or so everyone thought), so for that reason alone Fred and George should know who Peter is. JKR says they don't know who he is, and so I am taking her at her word. I do think, though, that there is evidence in her books to back up her answer.

Even though JKR says the act of blowing up Peter and several muggles was well known throughout the wizarding world, wizards seem to know very little about that night or the people involved in that event. Madame Rosmerta seems to know almost nothing about it except that Sirius was the murderer and that a wizard and some muggles were killed. She doesn't seem too aware of Peter Pettigrew, and even though he hung out with James and Sirius (whom she remembers well), she has to be reminded what he looks like (a little lump of a boy) to remember him. Doesn't JKR tell us that since Voldemort's demise the Wizarding World is so glad to be rid of him and that era that they don't talk about those days much at all? Maybe wizardkind is not very well informed about that night afterall.


Tomoé - Jan 13, 2005 6:57 am (#2 of 167)

Here's my 2 knuts worth take:

Wasn't Sirius a member of the original Order of the Phoenix?
Yes.

Wasn't Peter Pettigrew also in the original Order? (OoP states this, with Moody showing a photo of the original Order)
Yes.

Weren't the Weasleys part of the original Order?
Molly, no. Arthur, Jo seems to hint no.

If so, didn't Arthur and Molly know Peter Pettigrew?
It seems they don't.

Being that in the days after where Voldemort was killed, when Sirius "killed" Pettigrew, wasn't Sirius talked about in the entire wizarding community? With Voldemort dead? no, must of them should have very little recollection of what happen in their own life for a couple of day, let alone remember the name of the man who was killed by You-Know-Who's #1 supporter.

Didn't everyone know the story of Sirius Black?
Can you tell me the story of only of one of the FBI most wanted man in 1991? I mean without any research? Fred and George were 2 when the event occurred, there were loads of Voldemort's supporters in trial, all with their own horrible story. I'm sure the Weasley were more preoccupied with Dolohov and the other Prewett murderers.

Didn't everyone know why he was imprisoned?
Too much trial were going on at the time, it was difficult to keep track.


Sirius Lee - Jan 13, 2005 9:29 am (#3 of 167)

Fred and George may have known the name Sirius Black, but why would they know Peter Pettigrew. Everyone knows names like Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Hannibal Lector () and other serial killers, but how many of us know the names of their victims? Black was the name of a famous killer, but Pettigrew was the name of one of 13 killed. I would be far more shocked if they did recognize Peter's name.


Qwaz - Jan 13, 2005 9:42 am (#4 of 167)

I really don't think there's much to debate here. JKR has told us that they did not notice anything strange on the map and given us several reasons.

1) Hundreds of dots and not all familiar names. One name won't stand out. 2) Fred and George were unlikely to know his name at all 3) Even if they had it could be another Peter Pettigrew 4) They used the map for mischief mostly so weren't looking out for Peter.

Considering it's her story and Mrs.Rowling has complete control over everything a character says or does she could just have easily said:

No, they never noticed anything unusual about it.

Shouldn't we just accept what Jo says. That even if Fred and George did notice, they wouldn't have thought anything of it.


Gina R Snape - Jan 13, 2005 9:44 am (#5 of 167)

Let's not forget there is a generation gap here too. People who some of us in the States think 'everybody should know'--e.g. Charles Manson, David Berkowitz the 'Son of Sam' or even Mark David Chapman (who killed John Lennon)--younger people might never have heard of. Sirius Black was incarcerated when Harry was a baby. The Weasley twins are not so much older than Ron and Harry that they would be up on wizarding news from ten years ago. And likely, the Weasleys would want to shield their children from knowing too much information about those years so they don't grow up in too much fear.

Molly's relatives (The Prewitts) were in the Order. But I don't think Molly or Arthur were or else the way DD asked them to be part of the new Order would've been different IMO (more like, 'will you be joining us again'?).


Snuffles - Jan 13, 2005 9:44 am (#6 of 167)

Thats true Sirius Lee besides which when Fred and George use the map they are probably only keeping an eye out for people like Dumbledore, Filch and Severus. There are hundreds of people moving on the map but they will only watch for the ones they need to.


popkin - Jan 13, 2005 10:05 am (#7 of 167)

Alex, I just wanted to say that even though the responses to your question have been a little on the negative side, we're glad you are here on the Forum. It was an interesting question, and I look forward to your future posts.


vball man - Jan 13, 2005 10:22 am (#8 of 167)

Well, I think we have to give JKR a "mulligan" here. I mean, if we really think about it, Fred and George should have seen him and it should have bothered them. She's written a huge, complicated world and there are bound to be a few problems. There are actually remarkably few.

Knowiing Fred and George and knowing Percy, it seems to me that Fred and George would have paid close attention to Percy on the map. To spy on him, to plot against him, and to make sure he's far enough away not to tell on them. Scabbers was Percy's rat. So wouldn't they say, "Hey, who's that up in Percy's room? Peter Pettigrew. Who's that? We'll have to ask him tomorrow."


librarian314 - Jan 13, 2005 10:25 am (#9 of 167)

Hey all!

I've wondered about Fred and George noticing Peter on the map myself.

I doubt that the boys had any idea who Peter Pettigrew was, except, perhaps as a name that often appeared on the map next to either Percy (to whom Scabbers/Pettigrew belonged before Ron) or Ron.

We know, because the twins tell us in the "Marauder's Map" in PoA, that they found the map in Filch's office during their first year. That same year, Percy was in his third year and Charlie was in his sixth (most likely a prefect). If I had found a magic map, the first people I'd go looking for are my friends and relatives. I'd also keep an eye out for them in the future as one is a prefect and the other is Percy. ;-)

Now, it's still possible that F and G never saw Peter with either Percy or Ron, even though Scabbers slept with Ron, in his bed and was carried around school, too. It's quite possible that the same things happened when he was Percy's pet. They might not have been looking in the right place at the right time or saw the name and it meant nothing. Though, if I regularly saw the name "Peter Pettigrew" in my brothers' dorm rooms, I'd ask some questions.

So, in my HP world, F&G saw the name Peter Pettigrew on the map but were too busy plotting other nefariously fun mischief, to ever follow up on that info.

Anyway, that's my rationalization :-)


*michelle the librarian**


Prefect Marcus - Jan 13, 2005 11:00 am (#10 of 167)

Names are common. I live in a fairly large suburb of Seattle. I have an uncommon (not rare) first name ('Mark'), and a fairly rare last name. Yet there is another man living in my town with my same first and last name -- and even my same middle initial.

Even Harry was confused when he saw that "Barty Crouch" was searching Snape's office.

So even if the twins had heard of "Peter Petigrew", there is no reason that they would think that it was THAT "Peter Petigrew". The man is dead, isn't he? It was probably just a relative with the same name.

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 11 to 20 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:05 pm


Tomoé - Jan 13, 2005 11:02 am (#11 of 167)

Good point Michelle, before Ron came to Hogwarts, Charlie was there with Percy. When Fred and George attend Hogwarts for their first year, Charlie was already prefect for a whole year.

I would think Charlie was much a problem than Percy back then, he's the prefect, is the one who patrol after hours in the corridors. On the other hand, I can't imagine Percy not having a routine, akind to Ernie's one, so you never encounter him by surprise. So no needs to look for him much.

When Charlie left, Ron came in, Scabbers was handed down and Percy became prefect. Percy was the one to look for, no need to look around for Ron much, if he had caught the twins, he would kept it for himself. Even if there's a extra boy in Percy and Ron's dorm, even if he was in their brother Percy and Ron's bed, Scabbers was always sleeping at the feet, it would look like he's just sitting there to have a talk.

Harry on the other hand, should have spotted Peter.

Edit : Right Marcus, there was no reason to think their brother's year Peter Pettigrew have much to do with the murdered Peter Pettigrew. They don't know they're in a book. ^_~


Sirius Lee - Jan 13, 2005 11:33 am (#12 of 167)

Let's pretent you have a Marauder's Map. As you scan for Snape and Flich before sneaking to the kitchens, you spot the name Joni Lenz or Lynda Healy or Donna Manson inside Gryffindor Tower. Do you care? Aren't you more focuses on staying out of trouble than wondering who's in the commonroom or other dorm rooms? After all, they're probably just first years or something and of no concern to you. You pay no attention and head off for some extra eclairs.

For the record, those are the names of Ted Bundy's first few victims. They spark about as much notice to you as Peter Pettigrew would to Fred and George.


vball man - Jan 13, 2005 11:49 am (#13 of 167)

I think this would be more like if "Ted Bundy" was in Gryffindor tower.


Sirius Lee - Jan 13, 2005 11:57 am (#14 of 167)

No way, in the WW, Peter was just a victim, Black was the murderer. Sure they might recognize "Sirius Black", but why "Peter Pettigrew"?


Prefect Marcus - Jan 13, 2005 12:24 pm (#15 of 167)
Edited by Jan 13, 2005 11:24 am

Okay, let's try another scenario. You have an appointment to see a professional who works in a large office building with hundreds of offices. You start scanning the office directory. You see the name "John F. Kennedy." Do you:

(A) Assume it is the former President of the United States?
(B) Assume it is someone with the same name as the former President of the United States?

I think most people would assume 'B'.


John Bumbledore - Jan 13, 2005 12:47 pm (#16 of 167)

Perfect Example

Sirius Lee, that is a perfect parallel in our muggle world. Now, If I may, add magic; with about 1,000 (one thousand) little dots moving about on the map, how could any "muggle" hope to find the one they are looking for? We know the map was made for the purpose of assisting in making mischief. It stands to reason that if you are looking for a particular item on the map (wizard dot or secret passage) wouldn't it help you find it by perhaps enlarging the dot and name or by panning the map so the desired object is in the center?

We muggles have very similar assistance provided in our technology. With an active scroll wheel on a mouse, when it is clicked the software scrolls the web page in the direction we move the mouse. It even gives us a cursor that looks like < O > or
/
O
/

So, if the see the name Joni Lenz among a few others (say they had to read fifteen or twenty dots before they spotted Professor Snape), would the name register enough to remember who Joni Lenz was? No, only enough attention to see that it was not Snape and their eyes kept moving in the search for their target.

<)B^D= (John) Bumbledore


Michael Franz - Jan 13, 2005 12:59 pm (#17 of 167)

It may be true that Fred and George had no idea that the name "Peter Pettigrew" was significant. However, as Ron says about Scabbers in Book 3, "YOU SLEPT IN MY BED!" It would seem logical that Fred and George would use the map to check on Ickle Ronniekins from time to time while they were sneaking around at night. Don't you think they might have wondered why there was a "Peter Pettigrew" sleeping in Ron's bed? I mean, if Akane Tendo had one of these maps, she'd say, "Why does the map say Ryoga Hibiki is in my room? The only thing in here is P-Chan..."


Tomoé - Jan 13, 2005 1:04 pm (#18 of 167)

Scabbers slept at the foot of the bed, likely Ron and his room-mate had a chat and Peter sit in Ron's bed because his own bed was too far from the conversation.


MickeyCee3948 - Jan 13, 2005 1:46 pm (#19 of 167)

I wonder if the bed that Ron refers to wasn't back at home in the burrow. Even if he did sleep in Ron bed at Hogwarts. If your name was not Filch, Snape, McGonagall or Dumbledore or one of the names of the prefects then I doubt that Fred and George really cared much at all.

Mikie


T Brightwater - Jan 13, 2005 2:04 pm (#20 of 167)

I doubt they'd be checking on their own dorm tower, except to make sure they knew where Percy was. I expect the people they'd be watching for most would be the ones that Mikie listed, and they'd either be looking for them in their usual places or near the places where they (F&G) were planning on going.

I expect it's very easy to overlook names on the map if they aren't people you're worried about running into. Lupin _did_ notice because he was using the Map to keep track of HRH, and he couldn't miss seeing that there was another person with them - one whose name he definitely recognized.

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 21 to 30 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:08 pm


Quidam - Jan 13, 2005 3:47 pm (#21 of 167)

Sirius and Peter were in the original Order of the Phoenix. The Weaasley's were not (OP9). But how does Mr Weasley know that the only bit of Peter anyone could find was his finger? (PA11) Possibly he is given this information after Sirius escapes.

Scabbers was originally kept as a pet by Percy. I think it's possible that the twins could have seen Peter Pettigrew next to Percy Weasley on the map (they would have shown up as two dots, not a boy and a rat) and assumed that Peter was a friend or classmate of Percy's.


Detail Seeker - Jan 13, 2005 3:50 pm (#22 of 167)

Scabbers (aka Peter) sleeping in Ron´s Bed means two dots on one spot normally. Scabbers in Ron´s pocket even more so. so, which one would te map put on top ?

Considering the apparent intelligence of the map (see the Snape treatment when he found the map), it might show the one, that interests the onlooker most - and that would, if Fred and George cared to look for their brothers, not be Peter Pettigrew.

So, for all possible flaws in that logic and in JKR´s logic, we have to accept, that Fred and George never saw Peter Pettigrew on that map, nor did Harry up to that fateful night.


Reading muggle - Jan 13, 2005 7:08 pm (#23 of 167)

I don't think we can expect JKR to think everything down to the finest detail. That said, I would like to point out that Fred and George grew up with their mother telling them not to trust anything without knowing where it keeps its brain (as she does at least twice in the books-I think). So, it's possible they didn't completely trust the map, Peter Pettigrew or not.

I think a better question out of all this is: how did Peter the rat come to the Weasleys? Is there something about the Weasleys that would attract someone to dwell for 13 years as a rat? (sorry if this is covered somewhere else)


Gina R Snape - Jan 13, 2005 8:29 pm (#24 of 167)

I see no reason why the twins would watch out for Percy until he was a Prefect. By that time, the rat was Ron's pet. And they had no reason to watch out for Ron's whereabouts.


Ann - Jan 13, 2005 8:54 pm (#25 of 167)

I can only think of one occasion where a Weasley parent cautions about a thinking thing whose brain isn't visible--not Molly, but Arthur reproaching Ginny for being fooled by the diary in CoS. I think Harry remembers this later (maybe in connection with the pensieve in GoF?), but I can't think of a second occasion where Arthur or Molly say it.

And somehow I can't imagine that Fred & George would pay much attention to it anyway.


Gina R Snape - Jan 13, 2005 9:04 pm (#26 of 167)

I can't think of another occasion, but it did sound like something Arthur has likely said over and over again to the kids over the years.


Solitaire - Jan 13, 2005 11:21 pm (#27 of 167)

Tomoé: Harry on the other hand, should have spotted Peter

Tomoé, until he overheard the conversation in the Three Broomsticks, I did not realize Harry had ever heard the name Peter Pettigrew. Then Scabbers disappeared shortly after that. My guess is that, from that point, Scabbers was never back on the map when it was still in Harry's possession. He was gone for quite a while, remember--hiding in Hagrid's cupboard.

Remus "repossessed" the map the day Harry's head was spotted by Malfoy in Hogsmeade. Remember that Snape took the map from him and tried to make it work. When it did not, he called Remus to come and look at it. Remus kept the map and admonished Harry for not having handed it in, given the situation with Sirius and what had happened the last time "information" was left lying around (Crookshanks took Neville's passwords and gave them to Sirius).

The night everything happened, Remus was watching the map, because he knew Buckbeak was to be executed and he figured the kids would try and get to Hagrid's--which they did. It was not until they had left Hagrid's hut and started back towart the castle (under the invisibility cloak) that Remus noticed a fourth person--Peter--was with them. And that is also when he saw Sirius run toward them, pounce, and drag Ron and Peter down into the passage under the Whomping Willow.

Solitaire


Tomoé - Jan 13, 2005 11:30 pm (#28 of 167)

Thanks for the reminder Solitaire, I most admit I'm quite due to reread the whole series. Not that I'm complaining. ^_~


vball man - Jan 13, 2005 11:42 pm (#29 of 167)

Don't throw things at me...

What Solitaire said reminded me of how in PoA Movie, Harry sees Peter on the map. I actually thought that was better than the book. It moved a clue about what is revealed in the shrieking shack earlier in the story.


Aurora Gubbins - Jan 14, 2005 4:58 am (#30 of 167)

Don't forget that Peter was one of the Marauders and was quite likely involved in the making of the map. He could have done something to edit the map - as a rat he could have been hanging around when the twins were using it and realised what it was.

Mind you, I believe Jo; they just didn't notice it much. I've read Jo's books sev eral times each and still come across bits that didn't register before!

Aurora xx

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 31 to 40 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:09 pm


Alex Brockwell - Jan 14, 2005 7:18 am (#31 of 167)

just quickly now on a post one or two above where Lupin was watching the marauder's map that night, what happened when Harry and Hermione used the time turner? did lupin see TWO HP's near hagrids hut?


Solitaire - Jan 14, 2005 8:22 am (#32 of 167)

Whoa! That's an interesting thing to ask Jo ... whether one's "past self"--or is it the "future self"?--would be on the map!

More on the Time Turner ... I noticed something in the movie that I can't find in the book. Hermione hears something when the kids are outside Hagrid's hut. She turns around and seems startled. Then she says, "I just thought I saw ..." and trails off. I thought she was going to say "The Grim," but I guess she actually thought she saw herself--which, of course, she did!

This makes me wonder if, having the Time Turner and understanding it, she might have guessed that she would go back or forward in time later at that point, so that's why she did not finish the sentence and pursue the idea. Okay, it sounds weird, but I'm not finished with my coffee yet.

Solitaire

Edit: Just a thought, Alex ... It is possible that the Professors all knew Hermione had the Time Turner. If this is so, then Remus might have suspected something funny was going on with Hermione and Harry.


vball man - Jan 14, 2005 9:30 am (#33 of 167)

she might have guessed that she would go back or forward in time later... Solitaire

I thought the same, but she doesn't seem to get it without DD's help.

Just a thought, Alex ... It is possible that the Professors all knew Hermione had the Time Turner. Solitaire

How could they not have known? I mean sure they talk at staff meetings about their students. I would think that McGonagall would thingk that the schedule conflicts might come up and tell everyone up front. Snape probably didn't know, though, based on his failure to guess that Harry could have been in two places at one time.


Steve Newton - Jan 14, 2005 9:37 am (#34 of 167)

vball man, I think that you are right about Snape but a part of me is cautious. I think that Snape is playing a very deep game. He may not have wanted Harry and Hermione to be found out for reasons that are not yet apparent(At least to me.).


scoop2172000 - Jan 14, 2005 10:31 am (#35 of 167)

Aurora:

If Peter, as one of the makers, did something to the map so others (i.e. Fred and George) wouldn't see him as a rat ...

How is it that Lupin, using the map to track the Trio around the time of Buckbeak's execution, saw Peter on the map?


Gina R Snape - Jan 14, 2005 11:43 am (#36 of 167)

I believe the second set of the trio were 'out of range' at that point, in the Forbidden Forest.

I got the very strong impression that only DD and McG knew about the Time Turner. If Snape knew, then DD's quip about 'being in two places at once' was DD's way of telling Snape to shut up. Either way, Snape would be enraged so it doesn't really make a difference.


Boris the Bewildered - Jan 14, 2005 12:04 pm (#37 of 167)

peter petigrew was simply irrelevant to the twins, whether their parents knew him personally or not. They were intent on the mischief at hand and didn't study all the names moving on the map (which they did NOT open at home)


Solitaire - Jan 14, 2005 12:17 pm (#38 of 167)

Gina, wouldn't Professor Flitwick have known? Remember that Hermione missed charms the day they did cheering charms and had to go and talk with him about what she missed and why. If the Professors all knew, that would explain why Snape was so insistent that Harry had done something. I agree with the kids being out of range in the forest; that makes sense.

I agree, Boris ... Peter was irrelevant to the twins at the time they had the map. By the time he became a known quantity, he was out of range of the map, apparently, and so would not have been seen. I thought it was interesting that the movie changed how he was spotted on the map.

Solitaire


Ginerva Potter - Jan 14, 2005 12:51 pm (#39 of 167)

Another thing - Even if the twins had checked on Ron at night, we are assuming that Peter stayed in bed with Ron while Ron is sleeping. Perhaps the reason why scabbers sleeps all day is because he is doing things at night. Ron wouldn't know because Ron is sleeping. JM2K

Ginny


Solitaire - Jan 14, 2005 1:21 pm (#40 of 167)

Good point, Ginny. Ron seems to be a pretty sound sleeper, too--we know this from the few times Harry has tried to awaken him at night for one reason or another--so maybe Scabbers has been cruising around the castle at night for the past few years, checking out things. Who knows what juicy little tidbits of information he might have learned!

Solitaire

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 41 to 50 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:09 pm


Tomoé - Jan 14, 2005 2:07 pm (#41 of 167)

Maybe he caved in the secret passage behind the mirror (Good point Ginny).


vball man - Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm (#42 of 167)

Steve Newton
vball man, I think that you are right about Snape but a part of me is cautious. I think that Snape is playing a very deep game. He may not have wanted Harry and Hermione to be found out for reasons that are not yet apparent(At least to me.).

yeah, I didn't think of that. Snape's hatred of Harry filters by word of mouth around the school ---> Draco ---> Lucius ---> Voldemort. Certainly Snape would not want any doubt in Voldemort's mind that Snape HATES Harry.


librarian314 - Jan 14, 2005 5:09 pm (#43 of 167)

Hey all!

I think that the twins would have been on the look-out for Percy even when he wasn't a prefect because Percy strikes me as the kind of kid who would "keep an eye" on his younger brothers and tell them off if he caught them doing thing he thought they shouldn't be doing.

There were three years when Percy was the eldest child at home. He probably looked after the twins quite a lot when Ron and Ginny were babies. I think the twins got used to yanking his chain and learned to avoid him as a matter of course.

We know that Percy has no problem telling Ron what to do because of the letter he sent in OotP telling Ron to drop Harry as a friend. If he'd do that to one of his younger siblings, I'd guess he'd do it to them all.

*michelle the librarian**


Betelgeuse Black - Jan 14, 2005 7:08 pm (#44 of 167)

My opinion is that JKR has poetic license here so I won't question the twins never seeing Pettigrew. If she had to account for them missing him every time, I'm sure she could do it given the time and motivation.

I love the idea that Pettigrew caused the cave in (Thanks Ginny, Solitaire and Tomoe'). He probably did roam around trying to find out as much as he could. I can picture him hiding by the teacher's table at dinner, listening to teacher's conversations. If JKR had not thought of that I'm sure she'd agree now. (snigger)

Betelgeuse

(A slight edit to the listening idea)


Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 14, 2005 7:21 pm (#45 of 167)

A most interesting idea about Peter listening. I wonder how much information Peter was able to discover about Snape during his years at Hogwarts.


Solitaire - Jan 14, 2005 9:00 pm (#46 of 167)

I still believe the cave-in was the result of Lockhart's backfired curse. What would be interesting about this is that Fred and George would have probably used the passage before it caved in. This would have put them mighty close to the Chamber of Secrets and the Basilisk. Anyway, I am surprised that Harry has not checked out this passage.

Another interesting question: Does Dumbledore know about all of the secret passages? I've often wondered if he were responsible for the one to Honeydukes, given his penchant for sweets. But who created all of the others? How long have they been there?

I am one who thinks that these passages are going to become critical in the coming books. I think they will provide a way for Voldemort and/or the DEs to enter the school and not be discovered until it's too late. I believe at least one BIG battle will be fought in Hogwarts.

Solitaire


Ann - Jan 15, 2005 8:10 am (#47 of 167)

Betelgeuse, I like the idea of Wormtail spying on Snape. He would, wouldn't he? Not only because Snape had been a fellow DE but also because of his history with the Marauders. And I would bet that Snape never gave him much information. The poor man probably assumed he'd be spied on constantly by rats of one kind or another.

And I agree, Solitaire, that the secret passages are going to be important, particularly the caved-in one behind the mirror. It was mentioned again in OotP, remember; Sirius suggested it as a meeting place for the DA. Such repeated mentionings are always a clue--and then there's the whole mirror thing.


M M - Jan 15, 2005 9:30 am (#48 of 167)

Just one more point about the name Peter Pettigrew being meaningless to the twins. When Ron and Ginny encounter Frank and Alice Longbottom both of them say they had no idea that they were tortured into madness. The Longbottoms were described as very popular and well known, why Pettigrew is consistantly described as unremarkable and it seems that Lilly and the other mauraders were his only friends. In my opinion Ron and Ginny would be much more likely to know the story of two well known victims of the death eaters who were the parents of one of there friends then the twins would be to know of a rather unknown fellow who is unconnected to them.

Mr. Weasley knew about Pettigrew's finger because he worked in the ministry at the time. He was probably the junior man in the Muggle Artifacts office which is located very near the auror's office. Certainly they would of been friendly with affable Arthur Weasley and would of told him tales of being an Auror. Mrs Weasley wouldn't of allowed talk of it at home though because it might scare young Bill/Charley/Percy/Twins. Since the aftermath was handled by the ministry there is no need for Mr. Weasley to have been a member of the OoTP to have known the details.

Two more points. The map tracks Mrs Norris. If Mrs. Norris is a regular cat it probably tracks every animal with a name. If she's a Kneazle it tracks at least all magical creatures. I don't think she's an Animagus. So if the twins looked in on Percy to see if he was in his dorm so they could sneak out for Butterbeer any extra names would be assumed to be pets. They may know the names of all Percy's dorm mates but it is unlikely they know all their pets. It probably tracks House Elves as well which adds even more unfamiliar names to the mix.

Second Point - Even if they are curious about who or what sort of creature Peter Pettigrew is they can hardly ask Percy. "Hey Perce we saw a Peter Pettigrew last night on our illegal map while we were out fetching Butterbeer. Who/Who's Pet is that?" Percy would go mad trying to decide whether to write Mom or tell Professor McGonnagal first.


Gina R Snape - Jan 15, 2005 10:45 am (#49 of 167)

Mrs. Norris is an agent of Filch. To me at least, it seems she has a job to assist him in monitoring the castle. So I think they made a special point of including her on the map.


vball man - Jan 15, 2005 12:22 pm (#50 of 167)

The Longbottoms were described as very popular and well known - M M

That is a very good point, M M. Peter's death might gain fame from its association with Voldemort's fall and Harry's survival, though.

Your second point about them not mentioning the map to Percy is good, also. So lets say that they know Percy to be alone in his room, and the map said that Peter was there also. What do they do? I think they'd find an excuse to go check out the room. I mean they would want to know that their map was functioning properly.

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 51 to 60 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:10 pm


GryffEndora - Jan 15, 2005 6:51 pm (#51 of 167)

I must say I agree with what Bumbledore said way pack in post 16:

Now, If I may, add magic; with about 1,000 (one thousand) little dots moving about on the map, how could any "muggle" hope to find the one they are looking for? We know the map was made for the purpose of assisting in making mischief. It stands to reason that if you are looking for a particular item on the map (wizard dot or secret passage) wouldn't it help you find it by perhaps enlarging the dot and name or by panning the map so the desired object is in the center?

I think, since the purpose of the map is to assist in the making of mischief, that the map would magically assist the person or persons making mischief avoid those who would seek to stop them. Yes that would include Hogwarts staff and prefects, but perhaps, it does not include other mischief makers who are not going to thwart your plans. Pettigrew was certainly making mischief of his own but not in any way that would effect the twins.

p.s. I'm sorry if I did the quote wrong, this is my first attempt, please bear with me Smile


haymoni - Jan 15, 2005 8:49 pm (#52 of 167)

I always figured that the Twins studied that map inside and out during their first year.

Once they knew where all the secret passages were and got to know everyone's routines, I can't really see them checking the map all the time.

They may have pulled it out to see where Filch was, but why would they look at Gryffindor tower?? They'd be trying to get away from there.


Wand Maker - Jan 15, 2005 8:57 pm (#53 of 167)

Something I always wondered about was if the Marauder's Map showed the professors, staff, visitors, and students differently, or if it would sense or be able to be asked "Where is Professor ______?" in order to highlight them. After all, seemingly each time Harry has used it, he hasn't had any problem finding the people (or cat) he wanted to find among the 1,000 labels, to make sure they were elsewhere in the castle.


schoff - Jan 16, 2005 2:11 am (#54 of 167)

Prefect Marcus:
Okay, let's try another scenario. You have an appointment to see a professional who works in a large office building with hundreds of offices. You start scanning the office directory. You see the name "John F. Kennedy." Do you:

(A) Assume it is the former President of the United States?
(B) Assume it is someone with the same name as the former President of the United States?

I think most people would assume 'B'.

Gotta say, not that great of an example considering Kennedy died very publicly, on film, and buried after lying in state. Jimmy Hoffa or Adolf Hitler would have been much better examples.


Solitaire - Jan 16, 2005 11:14 am (#55 of 167)

What would you think if you saw Elvis Presley moving around on the map? Actually, Jo's explanation makes sense to me. Frankly, the only names I can see the Weasley twins worrying about would be Professors (especially Snape), Filch & Mrs. Norris, Percy ... that's about it. They use the map for mischief and mayhem, and they don't want to be caught. I doubt they are too interested in what Percy or Ron were doing, as long as they weren't in the immediate vicinity.

Solitaire


Steve Newton - Jan 16, 2005 11:18 am (#56 of 167)

Solitaire, everybody sees that.


Solitaire - Jan 16, 2005 11:25 am (#57 of 167)

LOL Steve! **calling St. Mungo's to reserve a bed for Steve** Oops! I forgot! St. Mungo's doesn't have felly-tones! I guess I'd better send an owl!


Aurora Gubbins - Jan 17, 2005 3:07 am (#58 of 167)

Has anyone considered that the twins wouldn't necessarily be looking for a particular person? Perhaps they would only be looking at the vicinity of the mischief they were about to carry out. Why spend ages trying to find Mrs Norris, when all you have to look at is; is there anyone heading to wards the One Eyed Witch, and if so, who are they and how quickoly are they moving?

Me thinks we analyse too deeply

Aurora xx


Wand Maker - Jan 17, 2005 6:18 am (#59 of 167)

Perhaps they would only be looking at the vicinity of the mischief they were about to carry out.

A couple of times Harry uses the map, he doesn't appear to have any problem find Filch, Mrs. Norris, or Snape. This is why I wonder if they are labeled differently, or if the map's magic senses what the user wants to look for.


Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 9:34 am (#60 of 167)

Is it possible that people are suffering from movie contamination? I began watching PoA last night and got as far as the scene in which the map is once again confiscated by Remus. The flags by the names are quite large and easily seen, so of course it would be possible to notice them. HOWEVER ...

If you read if you read the scene in which the twins first give Harry the map, here is what it says: But the truly remarkable thing were the tiny ink dots moving around it, each labeled with a name in miniscule writing. I believe the names on the real map in the book were so tiny that it would have been nearly impossible to just accidentally notice a name, unless it happened to be in the immediate vicinity of the map Harry or the twins were watching.

The twins may or may not have heard of Peter Pettigrew when they were younger--they probably did--but they probably forgot him by the time they went to Hogwarts. More to the point, I doubt they would have been very interested in Percy's activities before he was a Prefect, and after that he no longer had Scabbers. I honestly don't believe they ever would have been particularly interested in what Ron was doing.

I just don't see that as an issue. Jo's answer makes sense to me. I have wondered whether Peter ever took a look at the map, though. I bet he snooped around plenty when the dorm room was empty. Do you suppose he ever transformed when no one was around? Being a rat for so long must have been kind of bizarre ...

Solitaire

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 61 to 70 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:12 pm


MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2005 11:27 am (#61 of 167)

Aurora Gubbins-I'm with you Aurora, me too thinks we analyse to deeply. Why does it matter. If there is a conflice with her answer so be it. She's writing the story and can do what she wants and tell us what she wants. We either accept it or have a problem with it but their are bigger fish to fry. Just my 2 knuts worth. First and last post on this thread.

Mikie


scoop2172000 - Jan 18, 2005 11:07 am (#62 of 167)

Sorry gang .. been away from the computer a few days ....

I think Gina was on to something back in post 49. Mrs. Norris is Filch's spy, so I think the Marauders would have made a special point of including her on the Map.

I don't think, however, the Map shows every animal in the castle (such as Crookshanks or even Fawkes) nor does it show every magical creature (Dobby and the other houselves.) My theory is the map sticks to people plus the special case of Mrs. Norris.


M M - Jan 18, 2005 11:55 pm (#63 of 167)

Was Mrs Norris allready working for Filch back in the 70s? If so she's pretty spry for a 20+ year old cat. It's certainly possible, even in our muggle world an occasional cat will last into it's 20s (more commonly cats can be expected to live to about 15-16 years old), and perhaps Mrs Norris has some Kneazle blood which makes it live longer. It's also possible that Filch had another cat working for him back then and she's Mrs Norris Jr. as the map likes to omit suffixs Smile


Kerrie-Louise - Jan 19, 2005 12:34 am (#64 of 167)

When Ron took Scabbers into the pet store there were magical rats and the woman there commented about the fact that if Scabbers was a normal rat it couldn't be expected to last very long. Maybe animals bred in the magical world just have naturally longer life spans!


Ydnam96 - Jan 19, 2005 8:06 am (#65 of 167)

Well, I think that they are actually magical animals. They just look like normal animals. The magical 'gene' gives them longevity just like it does for humans. (thinking of Narnia right now. How there are 'dumb' animals and those that could talk and such)


Steve Newton - Jan 19, 2005 8:43 am (#66 of 167)

I thought that the reason Scabbers lived so long was that he wasn't actually a rat.

Mrs. Norris is an interesting animal. If she was around when the Marauders were than there is something pretty important going on here.


scoop2172000 - Jan 19, 2005 8:47 am (#67 of 167)

I hope Jo gives us more of the backstory concerning the Map, especially how Filch confiscated it.


Czarina II - Jan 19, 2005 8:58 am (#68 of 167)

Filch could have had a cat for his entire sojourn at Hogwarts named Mrs Norris, regardless of whether or not it was the same cat. The Map seems to only take into account first and last names, so Mrs Norris could be one in a long line of Mrs Norrises. I would assume that if Snape (for sake of example) had a son named Severus attending Hogwarts, both he and the son would appear as "Severus Snape" on the Map, even if both are present at the same time. The example of Crouch Jr in GoF seems to attest to this.


Thomas Phifer - Jan 19, 2005 9:09 am (#69 of 167)

My views concerning the Mauraders Map and the reason why Fred and George did not ever see Petter Pettigrew Just trying to help JK out Smile

I think that with the Maurader's Map you only see people worth seeing to You. Otherwise the whole map would be covered in Hogwarts students and you couldnt see a thing. The only people Fred and George were worried about were the teachers and Dumbledore and Filtch and such. They were not concerned with Petter Pettigrew at the time of their days with the map. Plus Petter was always with Ron so it would only show Ron rather than his rat which is of no importance to them. Plus at night when anybody was sneeking around Hogwarts they would need to know where the teachers are and prefects and Dumbledore are including anyone comming around a corner no matter who they were teacher or not for the sneekster's sake. Hence Harry saw Petter Pettigrew comming down the hallway in the 3rd book because he was sneeking and he "needed" to know that someone was comming. The map only shows people who are of importance to the viewer. This is my theory. Please comment.

Thanks!

-Thomas Phifer


vball man - Jan 19, 2005 9:22 am (#70 of 167)

Last night I looked for, but could not find anything saying that any "Mrs.Norris" was with Filch prior to when Harry showed up.

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 71 to 80 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:12 pm


GryffEndora - Jan 19, 2005 9:33 am (#71 of 167)

Thomas Phifer

Hence Harry saw Petter Pettigrew comming down the hallway in the 3rd book because he was sneeking and he "needed" to know that someone was comming.

Just to clarify, this only happened in the 3rd MOVIE and did not happen in the 3rd book.


Betelgeuse Black - Jan 19, 2005 7:16 pm (#72 of 167)

I just had a thought and I wonder if someone could correct my thinking if I'm wrong.

Doesn't the map show people only? I know it shows Mrs. Norris, but why? We never hear of Crookshanks or Hedwig showing up on the map. Peter Pettigrew showed up because he was an animagus. Has there been any mention of anything other than a person showing up on the map? If so, then Mrs. Norris is more than meets the eye.

Betelgeuse


Solitaire - Jan 19, 2005 10:25 pm (#73 of 167)

It is important to know where Mrs. Norris is, because where she is, Filch isn't far behind. Also, I believe the kids have referred to her as a tattle-tale. I'm not sure how a cat or kneazle tattles, but I guess they manage to do it. After all, Mr. Tibbles tattled on Dung!

Crookshanks and Hedwig pose no problems for Harry--when did either one of them ever give him detention?--so they are probably not going to be mentioned at all, even if they are on the map ... It sounds to me like the map shows where everyone is. If you are in the area of Hogwarts that is on the map, you show up.

Solitaire


librarian314 - Jan 20, 2005 7:45 am (#74 of 167)

Hey all!

From the Scholastic ppbk. version of PoA, p. 193: Inhabitants of Hogwarts show up as “tiny ink dots…each labeled with a name in minuscule writing.” Harry sees Prof. Dumbledore, Mrs. Norris, and Peeves.

So it seems safe to assume that spirits, animals, and people show-up. This is confirmed in Scholastic ppbk. version of GoF, p. 466, when Harry looked at the Map before leaving the prefects' bathroom and he sees Filch, Mrs. Norris, Peeves, and Barty Crouch in Prof. Snape's office.

I've yet to find evidence of house elves showing up, magical vs. non-magical creatures, (We don't know if Mrs. Norris is just a cat or something else.), or ghosts (as oppossed to poltergeists).

We also don't really know how many people show up at once. Not everyone does. In PoA, p. 194-5 (Scholastic ppbk.) Harry puts the map away and gets it out right away again and when he pulls it out, “a new ink figure had appeared upon it, labeled Harry Potter…standing where the real Harry was standing…” So when Fred and George gave Harry the map he wasn't on it; when he opened it again, maybe a minute later, he appeared.

Maybe this is why F&G never saw Pettigrew and never wondered why some guy named Peter was always next to one of their brothers. Perhaps, Percy or Ron never showed up. (I think it's more believable that Ron didn't show up when F&G looked at the map because he wasn't a threat in the same way that Percy, an elder brother, was. I'm certain the twins got used to going around Percy at home before he left for school.)

Harry seems to have used the map primarily for sneaking around school and Hogsmeade. So he's only been on the look out for those that would confound those plans. He's looked at the route he needs to take and checked to see that the coast was clear. I have not found any mention of him just studying the map to see what it shows. Since Harry doesn't know, we don't know.

If I were Harry, I'd study that map very carefully, regularly. Just like I do to my 1991 AA map of Great Britain that is always on hand. (It's easier to find than my local road maps. Those live in the car.) But then, I've always loved looking at any maps ;-).

I really hope we get more info on the Marauder's Map, because it is one of the cooler magical items we've seen and I'd really like to know what sort of charms and things went into its creation.

*michelle the librarian**


essie125 - Jan 20, 2005 7:55 am (#75 of 167)

On the night of the Hearing there is a little party to celebrate that Harmione and Ron are both prefects and that the charges against Harry were dropped. At this party Mad eye Moody shows a picture of the original order of the Phoenix. Mr. and mrs. Weasley were not in the original order. So they could not have known Pettigrew personally. And about the fact whether Fred and george could have seen Pettigrew on the map who says that Peter did not tstroll around the castle every night. I mean he sleeps all day long and maybe he is awake at night. I mean he moved in with a wizarding family as a rat to get info on voldemort's whereabouts, but I bet that if he walked around the school at night, he could get even more info from the teachers, dumbleodre and certain students, with parents who are supporters of Voldemort. Maybe at night he transformed into a human and walked around the school. I mean i would not want to be a rat for eleven years in a row.


Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 8:24 am (#76 of 167)

Then, of course, there is still the most obvious reason: Harry didn't know about Peter until that day in Hogsmeade. When he got back to the castle, he didn't want to talk about what he'd heard or answer any questions from F&G, so he went up to bed. We didn't see him look at the map again until the next trip into Hogsmeade, after Scabbers disappeared. (Remember that Ron thought Crookshanks had eaten him).

I think we probably need to remember that Harry didn't have the map with him constantly and probably didn't look at it every day. He only used it when he needed to evade Snape or Filch because he was going someplace he was not supposed to be going or doing something he was not supposed to be doing. Remember, too, that Remus took the map after that second trip into Hogsmeade.

Solitaire


Steve Newton - Jan 20, 2005 8:38 am (#77 of 167)

Solitaire, I think that you have it right. Harry has shown a very casual attitude about magical objects. Remember that he left the invisibility cloak atop the tower when they arranged for the return of Norbert.


MickeyCee3948 - Jan 20, 2005 8:39 pm (#78 of 167)

essie - I wouldn't want to be a rat for 15 minutes. Harry has never had any real possessions either valuable or important. It is to be expected that he would just take them casually. When they become more important he will be more careful with them. He was so careless with the mirror that Sirius gave he broke it.

Mikie


Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 9:18 pm (#79 of 167)

I don't believe Harry broke the mirror out of carelessness, Mikie. I believe he broke it out of a combination of anger, grief, frustration, and despair when Sirius did not appear in it and answer him. Yes, it may have been careless of him to think he would never need the mirror again ... but he was hurting right then.

Solitaire


Julie Aronson - Jan 24, 2005 10:06 am (#80 of 167)

Actually, I think Harry's carelessness about that mirror lies in the fact that he completely forgot about it when he needed it the most.

Julie

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 81 to 90 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:12 pm


Stringer - Jan 25, 2005 2:26 pm (#81 of 167)

I feel that we do not know all the magical properties of the map. For instance to open it you have to state you solemnly swear you are up to no good. Maybe this is an incantation of sorts which allows the map to show those people who would interfere with your plans. The map could have the ability to see your plans, and then assist you in achieving them, by showing those who would stop you. Peter than would not be seen as a risk.

The map does seem to have a level of intelligence, as did Tom Riddle's diary. The diary learned of Harry's existence, and Voldermort's downfall through Ginny, and used this information to lure Harry into the chamber trying to destroy him. Perhaps the marauders put a little of their intelligence into the map, giving it more abilities than just showing moving dots.

I also agree with the statement saying the twins and Harry were always moving away from Gryffindor tower. I seems to me that Harry doesn't open the map until he is through the picture of the fat lady. Also if you were Fred and George and you were off doing mischievous things, why would you waste your time by looking for Ron or Percy. Personally I would be focused on achieving my goal, and protecting my skin.


essie125 - Jan 28, 2005 5:20 am (#82 of 167)

Me too Stinger I wouldn't care about what my brothers were doing either. Personally I believe that the map shows everyone in Hogwarts. Every time Harry uses the map he uses it too see whether the coast is clear. The only times that Harry used the map before it got confescated by Lupin was when Harmione and Ron were already on their way to hogsmead. So he had no business of looking for Ron in the dormitory. I sincerly doubt that Molly or Arthur would have ever talked about Peter pettigrew or Sirius black with their Children before he escaped. There surely was no need to do this. What I gather from the wizarding community in the first three books of the series is that they want to speak about Voldemort and his cronies as least as possible, they just want to forget it. And as I wrote in my other post. Molly and Arthur were not in the original order of the phoenix. Sirius and Peter were. Molly's brothers were in it though, but I doubt they would have talked about this secret order and who is in it with his sister and her husband. And they died before peter got 'killed'. I doubt it that Peter would have done anything remarkable that they just had to tell everyone. He was a bit of a nobody. So I think it is safe to say that what JKR says about the Marauder's Map is accurate.


Ydnam96 - Jan 30, 2005 11:23 am (#83 of 167)

Hmmm...I like that idea Stringer! I wonder though about the time that Harry did see Crouch in Snapes office and Peter wandering around. Did the map decide that these were things Harry needed to know? And what about when Moody used the map, oh, and Lupin used the map as well to see where the kids were going...I guess that was his goal and since he knew how the map worked he could manipulate it in any way he wanted... It is an interesting theory that kind of answers a bunch of the questions we've had about the map.


Solitaire - Jan 30, 2005 11:27 am (#84 of 167)

When did Harry see Peter wandering around? I know that is in the PoA movie, but I don't recall it from the book. Remus is the one who saw Peter with the Trio as they left Hagrid's hut that night ... just before Ron and Peter/Scabbers were dragged down and into the Shrieking Shack by Padfoot/Sirius.

Solitaire


Ydnam96 - Jan 30, 2005 11:31 am (#85 of 167)

OH, I may be a victim of Movie Contamination! I'll try to go check.

[edit: I tried to look it up on the Lexicon...but short of actually getting out the book and scanning for it which at the moment I just don't want to get out of my nice comfy blanket on the couch- yay for laptops- so I am guessing if the Lexicon did not say anything about Pettigrew being revealed to Harry on the map it must not have happened in the book. Man, I wish we had electronic copies of the books so we could search it. Anyone got a couple years free to type it all in? Wink]


Solitaire - Jan 30, 2005 11:56 am (#86 of 167)

Mandy, I believe it was movie contamination, because I remember thinking--when I saw the scene in the movie--that it was not right. Harry had never seen Peter moving around in the castle. I've often wondered, too, whether Hagrid's hut shows up on the map. Remember that is where Peter was hiding. But Remus does not mention seeing Peter until after the kids left the hut.

Solitaire


Ydnam96 - Jan 30, 2005 6:57 pm (#87 of 167)

Yes, I'm starting to think I shouldn't have watched the movies at all as all they do is confuse my brain about what really happened.

It is a good question about the Hut. I had once thought that it only showed the castle itself, but that ideas was proven wrong when Lupin said he saw them on the grounds...


GryffEndora - Jan 31, 2005 12:34 pm (#88 of 167)

My assumption is that it shows everypart of Hogwarts that is unplottable. Meaning it is a map of the school and grounds but not a map that places the school and grounds in any geographical reference to anything else.


Ann - Jan 31, 2005 3:01 pm (#89 of 167)

Gyrffendora, your post raises a really interesting question that hadn't occurred to me before: how on earth did James, Sirius, Remus, and Peter make a map of a place that is unplottable in the first place? Isn't that the point of making something unplottable?


Prefect Marcus - Jan 31, 2005 3:33 pm (#90 of 167)

Who said that Hogwarts is unplottable?

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 91 to 100 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:13 pm


Ann - Jan 31, 2005 3:51 pm (#91 of 167)

Hermione, I think, in GoF, where they're discussing foreign schools and how they're hidden. (Sorry, I don't have the books at hand.)


Snuffles - Jan 31, 2005 3:53 pm (#92 of 167)

I think Hermione mentions it but i cant find where! Im off to check, i hate it when i cant find these things!


Prefect Marcus - Jan 31, 2005 4:02 pm (#93 of 167)

If I am not mistaken, Hermione only mentions that Hogwarts has anti-muggle charms, not that it was unchartable.


Eponine - Jan 31, 2005 4:13 pm (#94 of 167)

Here's what the book says...

GoF UK hardback p. 148 'But Hogwarts is hidden,'...'It's bewitched,' said Hermione. 'If a Muggle looks at it, all they see is a mouldering old ruin with a sign over the entrance saying DANGER, DO NOT ENTER, UNSAFE.'

She also explains the concept of unplottability, but does not mention that Hogwarts has been unplotted (I don't know how else to say that).

So, I don't think it's been mentioned if Hogwarts is unplottable, but it's not entirely unlikely that it is.


Ann - Jan 31, 2005 4:20 pm (#95 of 167)

Okay. In the paragraph after the one Eponine quoted (GoF US hardback edition p. 166)

Maybe, said Hermione, shrugging, "or it might have Muggle-repelling charms on it, like the World Cup stadium. And to keep foreign wizards from finding it, they'll have made it Unplottable--"

This does apply to Durmstrang, but she seems to be speaking more generally of all the wizarding schools.


GryffEndora - Jan 31, 2005 6:37 pm (#96 of 167)

Right, I've always read that as meaning Hogwarts is unplottable. I also figured the way MWPP were able to map Hogwarts is that they didn't put any information in the map that would help a foreign wizard locate where exactly Hogwarts is. It doesn't seem to map outside the grounds. When Harry is talking about the secret passageways in PoA he says the passage under the whomping willow seems to go to Hogsmeade but he doesn't know for sure nor does he know where it comes out. He seems to only know where passages end if F&G have already been there. Likewise the map only goes up to the Forbidden Forrest, we learned this in GoF when Crouch Sr. dissapeared and Harry says Moody wouldn't have been able to track in the Forbidden Forrest because the map ends.

Sorry I don't have my books here to check chapters and exact wording.


karebear811 - Feb 13, 2005 8:54 pm (#97 of 167)

Ok, a few things here. Now I myself have always thought of Hogwarts as unplottable because of those comments in the books, however there is one thing I cant figure out. If Hogwars it unplottable, and therefore hidden to the muggle world, how are Harry and Ron able to drive there, and other people go there, besides on the train? Is it like what Dumbledore did to 12 Grimauld Place and the Potters that only the secret keeper can tell you where it is, and then you can find it. Therefore, once you've been there, you can find it. I dont really know where I'm going with this sorry.

Ok, now a second thought/question for you all. In CoS, chapter 12 it seems like Harry and Ron know approximately where the Slytherin Common room is, but not completely, like those locations are kept secret. Keeping this in mind, is it possible that when MWPP created the map, they were only able to create it with places they knew the locations of, therefore common rooms and living areas, even Griffindors, do not appear on the map, which is why they use it when they are out of picture of the fat lady?


The giant squid - Feb 14, 2005 2:33 am (#98 of 167)

karebear, your second point is interesting. Is there any canon reference to something being seen inside a common room? If not it would explain why the twins never saw Scabbers/Pettigrew sleeping with Ron.

--Mike


sir nicholas - Feb 14, 2005 3:49 am (#99 of 167)

I think there is an essay somewhere in the Lexicon that discusses all about the Marauders' Map. Fred and George did not notice Peter Pettigrew sleeping with Ron because they only use the map for rule-breaking. That means that like Harry, Hermione, and Ron, whenever they go out of bed after hours, they only focus on those who are threats to them: Filch, Mrs. Norris, Snape, and other teachers. F&G need not check all the dormitories to go on with their nighttime wanderings.

Harry and Ron were able to find the castle because they followed the Hogwarts Express. Add to that the fact that they're not Muggles, so Hogwarts isn't really invisible to them. You got it right, GryffEndora.

Other students probably know where the different common rooms are, but they don't know where the entrances are and how to gain entrance unless they actually see the entrances (e.g. Malfoy showing Harry and Ron the Slytherin common room entrance and password).


Steve Newton - Feb 14, 2005 6:51 am (#100 of 167)

When Harry and Ron took the Polyjuice Potion I got the impression that they only had the vaguest ideal where tht Slytherin common room was.

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 101 to 110 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:14 pm


Solitaire - Feb 14, 2005 8:14 am (#101 of 167)

Steve is right. (CoS, Chapter 12, p. 218-219, US ed.) They went down the marble staircase. All they needed now was a Slytherin they could follow to the Slytherin common room, but there was nobody around.

Any ideas? muttered Harry.

The Slytherins always come up to breakfast from over there, said Ron, nodding at the entrance to the dungeons. The words had barely left his mouth when a girl with long, curly hair emerged from the entrance.

Excuse me, said Ron, hurrying up to her. "We've forgotten the way to our common room." Sadly, for Ron, she was not even a Slytherin.

Solitaire


Lina - Feb 14, 2005 3:54 pm (#102 of 167)

But in the CoS, Harry and Ron knew nothing about the map. It doesn't say if F&G would know where the entrance is and who is in the common room if they ever wandered about it.


karebear811 - Feb 14, 2005 6:06 pm (#103 of 167)

I agree that the map doesn't come in yet at this point, but MWPP were the creators of the map. I'm just saying that I dont think this is common knowledge amoung the students. I think the locations of the houses are somewhat secret, and therfore, when the map was created, those location would be left off. That would also be a great way for JKR to explain why Peter Pettigrew never appeared in the Grifindor areas, because I have to assume that even if a student does not know everyone personally in their house, they know the names, and a random name such as that would stick out.

I saw someone early on say that when F and G first got the map they must have looked at areas they spent a lot of time in, such as Grifindor tower, as well as the pathways to mischief. Assuming that happend, if the common areas were on the map then they would have at some point I'm sure, seen him.

JM2K


Solitaire - Feb 14, 2005 8:47 pm (#104 of 167)

karebear, I don't think it's safe to assume everyone knows every other kid in his or her house. I still have to fall back on Jo's comment from her site: "Fred and George used the map for their own mischief-making, so they concentrated, naturally enough, on those portions of the map where they were planning their next misdeeds. And finally, you must not forget that hundreds of little dots are moving around this map at any given time ... Fred and George did not know everyone in school by name, so a single unfamiliar name was unlikely to stand out."

As to their being particularly interested in Gryffindor Tower, I believe (my opinion only) that is very un-F&G. I suspect they would be far more interested in the "off-limits" places (secret passages to Honeydukes or Zonko's, cupboards where they might set traps of some sort for Filch or Mrs. Norris, the kitchen). I also believe they would be more interested in knowing the whereabouts of Filch & Mrs. Norris--and possibly Snape--than most other people.

While the whereabouts of the other house common rooms may not appear, I don't believe that can be assumed. The direct quote from the book says the following: It was a map showing every detail of the Hogwarts castle and grounds. This plus Jo's comment about the hundreds of dots on the map makes it seem that it would show where everyone was ... even if they were in the Common Rooms. JM2K ...

Solitaire


vball man - Feb 14, 2005 8:56 pm (#105 of 167)

I think there is an essay somewhere in the Lexicon that discusses all about the Marauders' Map. Fred and George did not notice Peter Pettigrew sleeping with Ron because they only use the map for rule-breaking. That means that like Harry, Hermione, and Ron, whenever they go out of bed after hours, they only focus on those who are threats to them: Filch, Mrs. Norris, Snape, and other teachers.

Yeah, but I would think that Percy was a threat, also. And Peter was often with him.


Denise P. - Feb 14, 2005 8:58 pm (#106 of 167)

Are you sure Percy had Scabbers then? We know he gave Scabbers to Ron when he was made Prefect but do we know a time frame? Do we know when the twins got the map? It could well be that Percy was made Prefect prior to the twins getting the map.

Edit: Well, I see we do know a time frame of when Percy made prefect as well as when the twins got the map. I can only assume, they were not intersted in when Percy was sleeping. Being their brother and in the same tower, they were aware of his schedule.


essie125 - Feb 16, 2005 5:36 am (#107 of 167)

Fred and George got the map in their first year at hogwarts, meaning that Percy was in his third year and not a prefect yet.


Solitaire - Feb 16, 2005 7:53 am (#108 of 167)

Is it possible that Percy might have kept Scabbers in some sort of cage? He is a bit more "buttoned-down" than Ron, and I can certainly see him putting Scabbers in his little rat cage at night rather than letting him run free or sleep on the bed.

Solitaire


Weeny Owl - Feb 16, 2005 12:49 pm (#109 of 167)

When Harry, Ron, and Hermione are busy adventuring around Hogwarts, they've never said, at least to what I recall, anything about being worried that Percy or another Gryffindor prefect will catch them.

Even after Harry got the map, he never worried about any of the Gryffindor prefects that we know of.

If Fred and George were down in the common room hanging out before they explored the castle, they would have seen Percy going up to bed and wouldn't need to think of where he might be. That's assuming that a lot of their explorations took place at night, which does make sense.

When they first got the map, they might have sat down in an empty classroom or other private place, and after they figured out how to get the map going, they might have asked it where certain people were, but if they saw Percy in the common room, for instance, and he didn't have Scabbers with him, then Peter Pettigrew wouldn't even show up.


karebear811 - Feb 16, 2005 1:44 pm (#110 of 167)

Harry Ron and Hermione would not have been as concerned about perfects either, seeing as though Harry had his invisibility cloak. If the profressors dont even catch him in it (except DD), then how would a perfect? Sure some of the teachers came close a few times, but they still didnt catch them.

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 111 to 120 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:14 pm


megfox - Feb 17, 2005 12:49 pm (#111 of 167)

There has been no mention of Hermione walking around doing "prefet duty" with Crookshanks, so Percy probably would not have Scabbers hanging out with him while he did the same. I see the prefects as being like Resident Assistants in a dorm, and I don't think there would be a reason to carry your pet around with you while doing that sort of thing (at least, I didn't when I was an RA - although, my pet wasn't exactly "legal").

Also, I tend to agree with the people that think Fred and George wouldn't have noticed Peter simply because they had no reason to be looking for him. Think about how you would look at an object like the Marauder's Map - if it shows the whole of Hogwarts Castle and everyone in it, you are going to be focusing on looking for teachers or Filch, and not looking at every little name that shows up.

So I think that Peter Pettigrew not being noticed by Fred and George really is not that great of a surprise. I would be looking for little ribbons that said things like "Prof ____" if I were using the map, not for names that could be other students.


MickeyCee3948 - Feb 17, 2005 9:24 pm (#112 of 167)

If as it has been suggested that the map shows only those individuals outside of their house common rooms, then it is not unlikely that Scabbers didn't spend alot of time outside of Gryffindor tower. He couldn't exactly walk up to the fat lady and yell out the password. Either Ron or Percy would have had to carry him outside or he could have exited when someone else entered or left. I doubt is he would have found Mrs. Norris any nicer than Crookshanks and we know how she always seems to be where ever mischief is going on.

Mikie


GryffEndora - Feb 18, 2005 10:18 am (#113 of 167)

MickeyCee3948

Rats, mice and other rodents have an uncanny ability to get through tight spaces that you wouldn't think of as a point of entry. In a thousand year old castle I think there are probably a few cracks & holes in the walls where a rat could get through with out the need for a password.


Amilia Smith - Feb 19, 2005 7:46 pm (#114 of 167)

And Scabbers was able to get out of the common room and down to Hagrid's hut on his own after he faked his own death.

As to Percy taking Scabbers with him on his Prefect duties, he might have. I don't remember which book it was in, but at one point Snape tested Neville's shrinking potion on Treavor, who turned into a tadpole. I remember thinking how odd it was that Snape, of all teachers, allowed pets in class. So if animals are allowed in class, I don't see any reason to exclude them from Prefect duties. And Scabbers could hide out in Percy's pocket just like he did with Ron.

That said, I do find Jo's explanation perfectly reasonable and logical. It's just fun arguing little nit-picky points, isn't it?

Mills.


Tomoé - Feb 24, 2005 12:23 am (#115 of 167)

I do see a reason to exclude Scabbers from Percy's Prefect duties, Percy didn't own Scabbers anymore. Percy became Prefect on Ron first year and gave Scabbers to his little brother as he get Hermes.


dizzy lizzy - Feb 24, 2005 1:28 am (#116 of 167)

Tomoe: How on earth did we all overlook that?? It's amazing what is hidden in the books right under our very noses!!

Lizzy


megfox - Feb 27, 2005 7:34 am (#117 of 167)

Good catch, Tomoe! That one gets a big "duh!" for me!


Ponine - Mar 1, 2005 7:08 pm (#118 of 167)

Hi all - I have been doing some catching up, and one thing struck me - one post - forgive me, I forget which one - mentions how it is specified in the book how Harry notices Dumbledore, Filch, Mrs. Norris and Peeves. 1.Is there any particular reason why we need to know that the map shows so many species? Is this merely to support the fact that Peter shows up, in rat form? Can we see Dobby, as someone asked earlier? Bane? 2. Did the real Moody, stashed in a trunk practically all year, ever show up on the map, do we know anything? 3. For every mischief P and G ever set out to do, they would also have to go back into Gryffindor, and make sure there are no one around who might ask questions to which there are no good answers. Considering there are only five (I did not forget anyone, right? Or did I ... have a gut feeling I did) boys in Ron and Harry's year, and thus more than likely only a few in Percy's class as well, I think it would be darned hard to miss a boy's name on my brother's bed at two, three, or four am. And I surely would notice it it the next time I saw it on his bedside and the next and the next... I honestly considered it a simple, tiny little flaw in Jo's vast, wonderful story... 4. Would Floo-heads (pardon my phrasing) show up on map, you think? 5. Are the various, everchanging rooms also on there? I am re-reading the books, but have only gotten to GoB, so my OoTP is a little rusty.


Solitaire - Mar 1, 2005 11:06 pm (#119 of 167)

LOL@ Floo-heads! I love it! Perhaps F&G weren't bothering to check Percy's bed in the middle of the night, because they knew where he was. Or perhaps Percy kept Scabbers in a cage rather than let him run wild. Percy is a lot more persnickety than Ron, and it really wouldn't surprise me if Scabbers stayed in a cage most of the time.

A more plausible explanation is that not every bed or chair is on the map. Perhaps just the rooms themselves and the people in them are shown--unless a piece of furniture is important, like a pipe organ or something, or big enough to hide a person or ghost. Didn't Peeves show up on it? Anyway, if furniture did not show up, it would be difficult to tell whether Scabbers was sitting on Percy's bed or standing next to it.

I don't know why Dobby wouldn't show up on it. Who knows about the Forest area ... how much of the Forest shows up on the Map? If it did not, then Bane would not show. Firenze probably does, since he is now in the castle.

About Moody's magical trunk ... it is possible that it would not show up on the map, or that things locked in it would not show up. Didn't the trunk have seven compartments, the one in which Moody lay as large as a room? We know it was big, because I think Dumbledore climbed down into it, if I remember correctly.

Solitaire


Dumbledore - Mar 2, 2005 2:59 pm (#120 of 167)

I think I remember hearing that the map showed all of the Hogwarts grounds and I know at least the beginning parts of the Forest are in the Hogwarts grounds but I don't know how much...

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 121 to 130 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:16 pm


Ponine - Mar 2, 2005 3:27 pm (#121 of 167)

blushing* I meant Firenze, of course...

I find it interesting that it then appears - maybe - that you are indeed able to hide yourself from the map, through - if nothing else -a magical trunk or seven.


pottermom34 - Mar 4, 2005 11:25 am (#122 of 167)

What about someone under an invisibility cloak , would thaat person show up on the map?


Prefect Marcus - Mar 4, 2005 1:10 pm (#123 of 167)

We learn in PoA that invisibility cloaks do not protect you from the map.


Lina - Mar 7, 2005 1:02 am (#124 of 167)

I think that if it was possible to see Moody in his trunk, the person would not be surprised because he would appear to be in his room. The only problem would be if the person would be looking at the map and at Moody at the same time, but in that case, it would be obvious that Moody is not Moody, and who would be so crazy to explore the map in Moody's presence?


Solitaire - Mar 7, 2005 12:04 pm (#125 of 167)

Exactly. Remember that Harry saw Barty Crouch (pretending to be Moody) moving around in Moody's office just before he dropped the egg and the map--and was cornered under the cloak on the stairs--in that little incident involving Snape, Filch, and Moody. In fact, he was headed to Moody's office to check it out when he got stuck in that trick stair and dropped the egg. But remember that he thought it was Barty Crouch, Sr., searching Moody's office and wondered why he would be at Hogwarts in the middle of the night.

My question: Why didn't he also see Moody--the real Moody, who was in the trunk--in his office, as well? Or did he? I do not have my books handy to check, but I do not think he mentioned seeing both Moody and Crouch. A thousand pardons if I'm wrong. But would Moody be hidden from the map in that trunk?

Solitaire

edited


GryffEndora - Mar 7, 2005 2:05 pm (#126 of 167)

Solitare, I believe the office in question belonged to Snape, which is why Moody wasn't in the room with Crouch. Moody would have been in Moody's office, nothing suspicious there. Also, I believe, Harry was going to Snape's office to investigate when he fell through the trick stair.

If you recall, Snape showed up to get Filch to help search for whoever broke into his office. I believe this also led to Harry and Ron being suspicious of Snape for the millionth time. "Why are all these dark wizard hunter's searching his office then?" Harry has seen Crouch in the office on the map and then hears Snape tell "Moody" at the bottom of the stairs, that "Moody" has already searched his office and knows there is nothing suspicious in there. This is also why Ron writes to Percy on Sirius' behalf, to find out why Crouch is too sick to judge the tournament but, not too sick to sneak around Hogwarts in the middle of the night.

Either way, I don't recall whether Harry mentions seeing Moody in his office or not.

edited


Solitaire - Mar 7, 2005 2:12 pm (#127 of 167)

Thanks, GryffEndora ... you see how easily things get garbled in my poor, pathetic brain when I do not have my books handy to consult. Smile


GryffEndora - Mar 7, 2005 2:13 pm (#128 of 167)

My pleasure, Solitare, I know the feeling very well! Smile


scully jones - Mar 14, 2005 2:51 pm (#129 of 167)

What if the trunk that moody was in is really just a portal to a room in a different place? Therefore, the map wouldn't show him in the office because he wasn't even in the area.


Solitaire - Mar 14, 2005 7:00 pm (#130 of 167)

Scully, I believe Moody did show on the map. He would have been in his office (even though he was in the trunk). Remember that by the time Moody (Barty Jr.) arrived where Harry was stuck in the stair under the cloak, Harry had already dropped the map. Moody took it at that point, so Harry was never able to see that it was really Barty Jr. standing in front of him. He probably assumed that Moody had been in his office (which the REAL Moody had ... in the trunk!) while Barty was searching Snape's office. (Is that how it went, GryffEndora?) He heard the commotion with the egg and came out to see what had happened.

Of course, if Harry had the map then, he would have seen Filch, Snape and Barty Jr. standing by him ... and Professor Moody in his office! But he didn't get that chance! Another thing Harry missed by not having the map was seeing both Barty and Barty Jr. at the same time in the forest. That map IS useful ... but Harry needs to be more careful with it.

Solitaire



Last edited by John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 131 to 140 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:17 pm


GryffEndora - Mar 15, 2005 11:20 am (#131 of 167)

Solitare, I do believe you've summed that up quite nicely! And I must agree with you, Harry needs to be much more careful with that map!


Joshua Little - Mar 30, 2005 5:02 pm (#132 of 167)

The Weasleys were not part of the Original Order, Lupine even says so during the boggart incident at Grimwald Place. Something along the lines of, "You don't know what it was like in the old days...."


Phoenix song - Mar 30, 2005 8:43 pm (#133 of 167)

Joshus Little, I hate to split hairs here, but I think that Lupin's statement could indicate that Molly was not in the original Order, and does not necessarily incorporate Arthur or other Weasley family members as non-Order members the first go-around.

Now... reverting back to our earlier topic, I also think that Harry needs to be much more careful with that Map!

Barbie


MickeyCee3948 - Mar 30, 2005 9:45 pm (#134 of 167)

Phoenix song I have to agree with you. But didn't Molly have some family members who were killed in the first war?

I think that molly would have been a little busy raising kids during the first war. But Arthur could have been in the order although he is not mentioned.

Mikie


KWeldon - Mar 31, 2005 11:43 am (#135 of 167)

Molly's brothers, Fabian and Gideon, were killed in VWI.


magicgirl - Apr 1, 2005 9:03 pm (#136 of 167)

When Moody shows Harry the photo of the original Order of the Phoenix members, neither of the Weasley's are in it. That leads me to believe that they were not in the order the first time around.


Joelle - Apr 2, 2005 12:09 pm (#137 of 167)

Molly's brothers were the Prewetts Right? and they were in the order. I believe they were in the picture as well.


Solitaire - Apr 2, 2005 8:06 pm (#138 of 167)

It's possible that with a wife, six young children, and one on the way--Ginny was only an infant when the Potters died--Arthur may have felt it was unwise to put himself in such danger. I find it perfectly believable that he and Molly may not have been in the Order in the 70s and 80s ... but I'm not sure what that has to do with the Marauders' Map.

Solitaire


Joshua Little - Apr 3, 2005 11:09 pm (#139 of 167)

If Arthur was in it then Molly would have known about it.


The giant squid - Apr 4, 2005 12:57 am (#140 of 167)

At the risk of cloggign bandwidth with an "I agree" post, I think Andrew pretty much summed it all up. Fifty points to your house!

--Mike

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 141 to 150 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:18 pm


Joanne R. Reid - Apr 4, 2005 11:34 am (#141 of 167)

Hi,

I'd also suggest that Arthur may have known about the Order, even if he was not a member. He's from an ancient wizarding family and was employed by the government. Further, since both of his brothers in law were members, it is likely they discussed the Order at one time or another with him.

However, it would not be in Arthur's character to deliberately endanger his family. Equally, Arthur would never have exposed himself to the wrath of a woman previously described as looking "like a saber-toothed tiger." CoS, page 32, Scholastic

Thanks,


Madam Pince - Apr 4, 2005 1:17 pm (#142 of 167)

I can't imagine a husband doing anything which would put his family in jeopardy and simply not telling them anything about what was going on, even if he didn't want them to worry. It would put them at greater risk for them to be unaware of the dangers he brings home with him at night. --Andrew Buchanan

Well, there's Frank Kennedy and Scarlett in "Gone With The Wind".....

That one just popped in my head when I read that; I'm sure there are many more similar examples. However, I agree with you that Arthur Weasley is absolutely not the type to hide that sort of information. He has given us many examples of behavior, which are listed above, that show us Arthur believes that to be informed is to be better prepared.

Edit: I went back several posts, and I agree with Solitaire, too -- what this has to do with the Marauder's Map, I have no idea...


Tomoé - Apr 4, 2005 5:39 pm (#143 of 167)

It came from Jo's answer:

Why didn't Fred and George notice Peter Pettigrew on the Marauder's Map before ("Prisoner of Azkaban")?

It would not have mattered if they had. Unless somebody was very familiar with the story of Sirius Black (and after all, Sirius was not Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's best friend – indeed, they never knew him until after he escaped from Azkaban), Fred and George would be unlikely to know or remember that Peter Pettigrew was the person Sirius had (supposedly) murdered. Even if Fred and George HAD heard the story at some point, why would they assume that the 'Peter Pettigrew' they occasionally saw moving around the map was, in fact, the man murdered years before?

So people were saying "how comes Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's did know Sirius, they were in the Order!", then other people said "no they weren't, Lupin said to Molly 'you weren't in the order back then'", then the first responded "there no indication the you stand for both Molly and Arthur, Arthur was likely an Order member", "no, he was likely not", and so on. It is therefore directly linked to "Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map", though not specifically linked to the map itself.


Madam Pince - Apr 4, 2005 6:04 pm (#144 of 167)

Tomoe, as usual you are my hero. Your logic is impeccable and your ability to summarize succinctly knows no bounds! Thank you!

So, now that you've brought us full circle back to the original question again, I have to say that I still think it's odd that Fred and George never noticed the "Peter Pettigrew" on the map over the years. Whether or not Molly and Arthur were in the Order, whether or not they knew Sirius, and whether or not said information was passed on to their sons Fred and George, it seems very strange to me that over the years the twins would not have noticed this strange kid's name being next to their brother's name all the time, especially in the Common Room and their dormitories. It just doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't have casually glanced at Ron's whereabouts at some point, even if they were more focused on the areas of Hogwarts where they were planning their next "adventure." And Hogwarts is not such a huge school that you wouldn't at least come across all the other students' names sometime, even if you don't know them personally, so why wouldn't they wonder "Hey, who's this guy? I've never heard of him before! And what's he doing in our Common Room?"

But I suppose that JKR can't think of everything, and her explanation is absolutely possible, although not too plausible to me. I'll take her word for it, though -- she's the boss!


dizzy lizzy - Apr 4, 2005 6:49 pm (#145 of 167)

Was Peter Pettigrew one of the makers of the map?

If so, may I ask why would any maker of such a fine map like this, want their name emblazoned all over it? Especially when they wish to use it for purposes not exactly encouraged by the greater wizarding community and not get caught.

Perhaps that is why Peter Pettigrew never showed up.

Lizzy


Tomoé - Apr 4, 2005 8:30 pm (#146 of 167)

That's pretty much how I see it, Andrew. Plus, I did my secondary studies in a school of around 1000 students, I knew by name all the 150 students of my year (on my final year), but only a douzain of people at the best in the other years. I'd say it's possible the twins didn't know all the Gryffindors by name even if they knew them all by face.

Madame Pince -> Tomoe, as usual you are my hero. Your logic is impeccable and your ability to summarize succinctly knows no bounds! Thank you!

(blushing in deep red) I just have a very good memory, really, it's no that outstanding. But thanks any way.

dizzy lizzy -> Was Peter Pettigrew one of the makers of the map?

Yes he was, he usulted Snape with the other. Besides, I'm sure being a rat can help you to map certain room (teachers' rooms, girl bathrooms, etc.) ^_~


Tomoé - Apr 4, 2005 8:44 pm (#147 of 167)

Well, Peter and Sirius were on the map when Remus looked at it in PoA, and Remus was on the map when Snape took a look ...


Melly - Apr 6, 2005 6:44 am (#148 of 167)

I wasn't sure where to put this but as this is the only Maraudeers map thread then I thought this was the best spot. I wonder what would happen if Harry wrote on the map or did what Snape did and speak to it? I wonder what they would all say to him, if anything at all, especially James. It seems to be able to keep up with things pretty well because it new Snape was a professer.What do you think would happen if Harry were to try this?


Ydnam96 - Apr 6, 2005 7:45 am (#149 of 167)

Hmm...well that's a good question. I've thought that at some point that Fred and George must have communitcated with the map at some point to know how it works. My guess is that they wrote on it and got a response.


MickeyCee3948 - Mar 24, 2005 12:45 pm (#150 of 167)

My thought is that Gred and Forge were definitely up to no good and the map automatically knew this.

Mikie

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 151 to 160 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:53 pm


Solitaire - Apr 6, 2005 10:27 pm (#151 of 167)

I think Mikie is correct. hehehe That map knows a couple of kindred souls when they touch it ... just like it knew that Snape was no friend to them and it insulted him. That makes me wonder ... what would it say to Peter these days?

Solitaire


Nathaniel Shafer - Apr 8, 2005 2:29 am (#152 of 167)

I think it would be appropriate to inject a bit of psychology in this discussion. A person's eye can only focus on one very precise point at a time. That's why your eyes move when you read. It is impossible to read an entire paragraph without moving your eyes; a brain can only process a limited amount of information at a given moment. That is why it is so dangerous to drive while talking on a cell phone. Studies have shown that it is not just that drivers take their eyes of the road (which they do), but also because it is impossible to simultaneously fully participate in a conversation and process all the information on the road.

Furthermore, People's brains behave differently when their heart rate is accelerated. Fred and George's heart rate would likely be accelerated when they are misbehaving. Many people enjoy this "rush" that comes from doing something that's wrong. During this rush observation has been shown to decrease severely. People report a sort of tunnel vision during stressfull situations in which their mind blocks out everything but the most vital information. Some people even report being unable to hear any noise at all during these elevated heart rate periods.

So while Fred and George are running around, they are unlikely notice any but the most pertinent information, in this case, names they are specifically looking for or the names in their immediate proximity. Since Fred and George seem to have successfully kept the map a secret they apparently only look at it when the need arises. I think it unlikely that they spent to much time examining the map for every name. Consequently, I agree with Jo's answer. Peter's name would have been relatively innocuous and would never have raised any mental alarms.

I hope that made sense because I'm trying to be relatively brief, but it's a quite complicated subject. -Nathaniel


OkieAngel - Apr 12, 2005 12:04 am (#153 of 167)

For the record, I want to start off by saying that I accept JKR's answer on why the twins never took notice of Peter on the map. It is so very Gred and Forge to be focused only on the mischief at hand, and not be concerned with who is where back at Gryffindor Tower.

That said, I do have a few questions I would love to ask about (or to)the Marauder's Map. Number One would be did the map show two Hermione's during her year of time-turning? Someone touched on this subject waayyy back on this thread, but it was not really discussed. Another would be concerning year one, would the map have identified Voldemort residing in/with Prof. Quirrell?? If so, how could the twins have missed that name?? I would think that given Quirrell's nocturnal activities (slaying and feeding off unicorns), that he and the twins were probably prowling the castle and/or grounds at the same times on any given night. Now, I could see the name Peter Pettigrew not meaning much to Fred and George, but you'd think seeing Lord Voldemort's name floating around on the map would be enough to jolt even those two!

I know the map was "off-page" during Harry's first two years, and so it didn't really apply to him, but these are a couple of conundrums that have been confounding me.

:angel:


Daisy Pennifold - Apr 12, 2005 5:19 am (#154 of 167)

If the map showed Voldemort at all, I imagine the map would label him as "Tom Riddle" - not a name to cause any concern. Not many people knew of his real name, correct?


Harry-ette - Apr 12, 2005 5:57 am (#155 of 167)

Agreed with Daisy that it is unlikely that the boys would know of the name 'Tom Riddle'. However, Nathaniel's question regarding 2 Hermiones is a good one. IMO I reckon it would show both, as she was physically in both places. As the alternative, say it only showed one - which one?


Solitaire - Apr 12, 2005 7:22 am (#156 of 167)

Didn't Hermione use the Time Turner only to manage the issue of more than one necessary class taking place at the same time? That suggests to me that she probably had to limit her use of it to daytime hours. Somehow, I tend to think the Marauders Map was probably tucked away during school hours, when F&G didn't need it. I don't see them having it in their immediate possession 24/7. After all, it is not the sort of thing they would want confiscated, is it? And I can imagine they would have been hauled up by Filch for various and sundry infractions pretty often.

Then don't forget that F&G gave the map to Harry that same year. Again, I can't imagine Harry carrying the map around with him all the time. It would be too risky, given the number of times he has gotten into trouble.

I suspect that Hermione was not time-turning during the hours when the map was most likely to be in use by either Harry or the twins.

Solitaire


Sconie Girl - Apr 12, 2005 11:34 am (#157 of 167)

Didn't Hermione use it to do additional studying too? Would there have been 2 Hermiones studying together than? The original and the "time traveler".

My head always spins when I start thinking about the time travel.


Steve Newton - Apr 12, 2005 11:43 am (#158 of 167)

Hermione said that she had agreed to use the time turner only to attend classes. Except with Harry, I would guess that she only did what she agreed to.


GryffEndora - Apr 12, 2005 11:48 am (#159 of 167)

I agree Steve. It seems to me that if she were also time turning extra study time and rest periods she wouldn't have been so frazzled and would have more likely been caught. It's easier to explain the class thing, but if Seamus comes back from the Library where he just left Hermione studying only to find Hermione studying in the common room, where everyone has seen her all night, that could be harder to explain.

(It makes sense in my head, I hope it makes sense in yours. )


Ydnam96 - Apr 12, 2005 7:43 pm (#160 of 167)

Yes, Hermione is a by the rules person. If she told McGonagall that she would only use it to attend class then she wouldn't have used it at nigh to study more. It's just not in her nature.

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Conflicts with JKR's Answer Concerning Marauder's Map (Posts 161 to 167 of 167)

Post  John Bumbledore on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:54 pm


James Greenfield - Apr 15, 2005 12:50 am (#161 of 167)

Maybe this has been discussed before, and maybe it is out of line, but I have a question about the map:

I have a habit of staying at the end of movies to read the credits. Well, the credits at the end of movie 3 (Prisoner of Azkaban) run about 12 minutes and seem to be based on the map. They look like folded sheets of parchment, and have things on them that look like parts of the castle. Little sets of footprints move around in clever patterns among the credits. One set even changes from human footprints to animal pawprints!

Is any of this relevant to this discussion? I know JKR has some (but not complete) control of what goes in the movies, but has she said anything about these credit minutes?


The giant squid - Apr 15, 2005 5:34 am (#162 of 167)

James, I'm pretty sure the Marauder's Credits were simply designed as a backdrop to the credits. I haven't seen anything from JKR that we should pay more attention to them than usual...then again, no one's asked her about them either.

Considering how many things in the PoA movie were just there for "feel" it's unlikely there's any real meaning to them.

--Mike


Madam Pince - Apr 15, 2005 6:02 pm (#163 of 167)

But they are pretty cute. James, if you look closely you will see that the footprints become larger when Hagrid / Robbie Coltrane's name is posted; they become birdy footprints when they pass by the Owlery; and they "tap to the beat" near the Music Room (I think it was called the music room?) Then they also seem to "jump" over lines of text, etc., and there's probably loads more that I missed. Some CGI person really had a good time with those closing credits, methinks. Have fun checking them out! I agree with Mike, though, that there probably aren't any clues hidden there.


Hexenhammer - Apr 21, 2005 6:58 pm (#164 of 167)

Something that I was wondering about and it stems from the movie version of the map and it’s the walls. I don’t know it was mentioned before but it appeared to me that the walls on the map were made up of names. When I thought that my mind assumed it was the names of the portraits lining the hallways.


dizzy lizzy - Apr 21, 2005 7:15 pm (#165 of 167)

That was my assumption too; Hexenhammer. I have no idea if this idea (of making the walls out of names) would be considered canon or approved by JKR. And whether it means anything significant.

Lizzy


Paulus Maximus - Jun 20, 2005 4:20 pm (#166 of 167)

I have one problem with JKR's explanation...

As far as I remember, Arthur DID tell his family about how Black had killed Pettigrew. At the very least, he had told Ron, and why shouldn't he have told the twins too?

Of course, I wouldn't exactly put it past the twins to tune him out...

And also, I guess we don't know exactly when Ron first heard about Peter Pettigrew either, other than that it was sometime before the middle of book 3...


Kip Carter - Aug 2, 2005 11:34 am (#167 of 167)

This thread was closed down during the sixteen day period surrounding the release of Book Six. It is now opened for posts.

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